From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Jun 1 01:53:15 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 23:53:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: plain perfboard Message-ID: It seemed to me that Radio Shack stopped selling plain perfboard a year or two ago. Yet a couple days ago, I found lots of it at the one a few blocks from my house. Anyone else know anything about this? Solder-ringed perfboard is good for stuff, but I find plain perfboard nice for building up stuff that's not necessarily a circuit. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Mon Jun 1 02:50:02 2009 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 09:50:02 +0200 Subject: Further 11/40 unibus questions... In-Reply-To: <4A234D6E.1060903@mail.msu.edu> References: <4A234D6E.1060903@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: > Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 20:39:26 -0700 > From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu > To: > Subject: Further 11/40 unibus questions... > > Hi all -- > > Still having trouble with my 11/40, though it's getting closer. > > Currently the issue is: > > Without a unibus terminator installed, the machine seems to function in > that I can use the front panel, toggle in and run short programs, etc. > > With a unibus terminator installed, the front panel is _almost_ > unresponsive -- I cannot examine or deposit memory or load addresses. > Toggling "Run" causes a brief flicker of activity (the "Run," "Proc," > and "Bus" lights come on, the data lights flicker, and then they turn > off, and the "Console" light comes back on.). > > Ian lent me his M9300 terminator, which caused no changes in behavior. > So at least I can (probably) rule out a faulty terminator. > > I've verified that grant continuity cards (the tiny annoying ones) are > installed in slot D of all empty Unibus slots, and that the NPG jumper > is installed in all slots (since I currently have no DMA devices installed). > > Question: Should the NPG jumper _also_ be installed in the one SPC > Unibus slot on the processor backplane? (I have a console SLU installed > there currently.) This does not currently appear to be present. > > Before I break out the logic analyzer this evening and start debugging > Unibus termination signals, I just wanted to make sure my current > configuration seems sane. > > The boards are installed as follows: > > Rear: > > Slot 4 : Empty M9300 > Slot 3 : Empty > Slot 2 : M7891 > Slot 1 : Empty | M981 > --- > Slot 9 : M7856 | M981 > Slots 1-8: > > Front: > > (As mentioned before, all "empty" unibus slots have a unibus grant card > + NPG jumper installed, Slot 3 has the NPG jumper installed.) > > Thanks once again, > Josh The machine seems to do something (for a short while that is). The only thing I can say is what I have encountered. I was triggered when you wrote that you have the M7856 in slot 9 ... make sure that the CA1-CB1 (NPG) pins are wired together on the backplane! The M7856 is one of the modules that does not use NPG, but also does NOT connect the two pins on the module! I have that written on my webpage www.pdp-11.nl (peripheral - comm - interface modules - DL11-W). I remember that I soldered a wire on the module to connect those two pins, as I did not want to mess with the backplane ... If you do so, make sure that no flux and tin gets on the contact fingers! - Henk. From hoelscher-kirchbrak at freenet.de Mon Jun 1 03:09:52 2009 From: hoelscher-kirchbrak at freenet.de (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?H=F6lscher?=) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 10:09:52 +0200 Subject: HSC / SCA / SCS DEC Manuals References: Message-ID: <665OLABMW1UYKerxkZuLQWwqwm4SYI5QebQiBN1p1DX@akmail> DEC Manuals wanted: EK-HS572-TM HSC50/70 Software Technical Manual (or newer issues) and any System Communications Architecture (SCA) / System Communications Services (SCS) Specifications Who can help? Regards, Ulli From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Mon Jun 1 03:23:27 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 01:23:27 -0700 Subject: Further 11/40 unibus questions... In-Reply-To: References: <4A234D6E.1060903@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4A238FFF.8040000@mail.msu.edu> Henk Gooijen wrote: >> Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 20:39:26 -0700 >> From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu >> To: >> Subject: Further 11/40 unibus questions... >> >> Hi all -- >> >> Still having trouble with my 11/40, though it's getting closer. >> >> Currently the issue is: >> >> Without a unibus terminator installed, the machine seems to function in >> that I can use the front panel, toggle in and run short programs, etc. >> >> With a unibus terminator installed, the front panel is _almost_ >> unresponsive -- I cannot examine or deposit memory or load addresses. >> Toggling "Run" causes a brief flicker of activity (the "Run," "Proc," >> and "Bus" lights come on, the data lights flicker, and then they turn >> off, and the "Console" light comes back on.). >> >> Ian lent me his M9300 terminator, which caused no changes in behavior. >> So at least I can (probably) rule out a faulty terminator. >> >> I've verified that grant continuity cards (the tiny annoying ones) are >> installed in slot D of all empty Unibus slots, and that the NPG jumper >> is installed in all slots (since I currently have no DMA devices installed). >> >> Question: Should the NPG jumper _also_ be installed in the one SPC >> Unibus slot on the processor backplane? (I have a console SLU installed >> there currently.) This does not currently appear to be present. >> >> Before I break out the logic analyzer this evening and start debugging >> Unibus termination signals, I just wanted to make sure my current >> configuration seems sane. >> >> The boards are installed as follows: >> >> Rear: >> >> Slot 4 : Empty M9300 >> Slot 3 : Empty >> Slot 2 : M7891 >> Slot 1 : Empty | M981 >> --- >> Slot 9 : M7856 | M981 >> Slots 1-8: >> >> Front: >> >> (As mentioned before, all "empty" unibus slots have a unibus grant card >> + NPG jumper installed, Slot 3 has the NPG jumper installed.) >> >> Thanks once again, >> Josh >> > > The machine seems to do something (for a short while that is). > The only thing I can say is what I have encountered. I was triggered > when you wrote that you have the M7856 in slot 9 ... make sure that the > CA1-CB1 (NPG) pins are wired together on the backplane! The M7856 is > one of the modules that does not use NPG, but also does NOT connect the > two pins on the module! I have that written on my webpage www.pdp-11.nl > (peripheral - comm - interface modules - DL11-W). > > I remember that I soldered a wire on the module to connect those two pins, > as I did not want to mess with the backplane ... If you do so, make sure > that no flux and tin gets on the contact fingers! > > - Henk. > > > Thanks -- installed the NPG jumper for slot 9, no change. Here's a question: The M9300 Ian lent me has three jumpers, labeled as follows: W1 : "Remove jumper for beginning of non processor bus termination" W2 : "Remove jumper for end of bus termination" W3 : "Remove jumper for end of processor bus termination" Currently, W1 is installed, W2 and W3 are removed. Is this correct? I'm curious what is meant by "processor bus" vs. just "bus" in this context -- can someone fill me in? Thanks, Josh From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Jun 1 06:16:43 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 04:16:43 -0700 Subject: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo In-Reply-To: <1243676231.1093.23.camel@elric> References: <4A1F1852.355206C9@cs.ubc.ca> <20090529123435.GJ31310@n0jcf.net> <1243676231.1093.23.camel@elric> Message-ID: <4A23B89B.2040808@brouhaha.com> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > So, you can't see a possible set of circumstances where having the wrong > voltage coming in the serial port could cause the frequency shift to be > wrong? > If you put enough voltage through a serial port signal, you'll break the modem. Then you'll probably get a fixed frequency regardless of the input, or no frequency at all. Other than that, no, having the wrong voltage won't cause the frequency shift to be wrong. > How clever do you think the tone generator side is? > Clever enough that its frequency isn't a linear function of the serial port signal voltages. Modems with EIA-232 (formerly RS-232) interfaces detect whether the transmit data signal has a voltage above or below a threshold, and generate one of two tones based on that. They don't feed the transmit data signal directly into a VCO, if that's what you were thinking. Doing it that way wouldn't result in a reliable modem, since an EIA-232 mark signal can be anywhere from -3V to -25V, and a space from +3V to +25V. For current loop, it senses current rather than voltage, but the principle is the same. It doesn't base the tone on the precise amount of current flowing, because even in a loop that has a nominal current (i.e., 20mA), the actually current may be significantly different. From ragooman at comcast.net Mon Jun 1 06:36:50 2009 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 07:36:50 -0400 Subject: Fuse & holder for a NorthStar Horizon In-Reply-To: <110019.36311.qm@web112221.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <110019.36311.qm@web112221.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A23BD52.8060305@comcast.net> From the looks of this, it's a rather common fuse holder http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/s100/h/hzback.jpg You should be able to find this at Mouser.com They have hundreds of types of fuse holders to choose from Nice catch, I wish I had one =Dan [ = http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] Christian Liendo wrote: > I got my hands on a very nice Horizon but it lacks the fuse and fuse holder. > Anyone know where I may be able to find the pieces I need? > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.339 / Virus Database: 270.12.48/2148 - Release Date: 06/01/09 06:09:00 > > From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Jun 1 07:23:57 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 07:23:57 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Mystery object... Message-ID: <4A23C85D.7000608@gmail.com> We've got a chap looking for an ID on the following - anyone got any ideas? http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/tmp/mystery.jpg Photo dated May 27th 1947, apparently (so speculation so far is some form of relay-based controller rather than a computer, but that's merely a guess) cheers Jules From leolists at seidkr.com Mon Jun 1 07:54:51 2009 From: leolists at seidkr.com (=?windows-1252?Q?Philip_Leonard_WV=D8T?=) Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 07:54:51 -0500 Subject: Some blinkenlights for entertainment... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A23CF9B.5040205@seidkr.com> My first programming job was on a System/3 Model 10 system. Ah those were the days. Philip Mike Ross wrote: > Here you go: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBtXLZcY_bM > > Makes a change from pdp... :-) > > William Donzelli: ping! Please email me at mike at corestore dot org - I may just have something for you... > > Mike > http://www.corestore.org From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Jun 1 08:50:55 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 06:50:55 -0700 Subject: Interfacing a 68000 to RAM In-Reply-To: <4A23C85D.7000608@gmail.com> References: <4A23C85D.7000608@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi Does anyone have a nice pointer to a diagram of how the 68K bus is to be connected to RAM? I not that familiar with all the various signals. I've spent some time searching but maybe don't have the right search string. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail? has a new way to see what's up with your friends. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/WhatsNew?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_WhatsNew1_052009 From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jun 1 08:59:19 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 06:59:19 -0700 Subject: Fwd: Mystery object... In-Reply-To: <4A23C85D.7000608@gmail.com> References: <4A23C85D.7000608@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 7:23 AM -0500 6/1/09, Jules Richardson wrote: >We've got a chap looking for an ID on the following - anyone got any ideas? > >http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/tmp/mystery.jpg > >Photo dated May 27th 1947, apparently (so speculation so far is some >form of relay-based controller rather than a computer, but that's >merely a guess) My guess is something to do with trains, as that appears to be a passenger car in the background. Is this a UK photo? Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Mon Jun 1 09:23:11 2009 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 15:23:11 +0100 Subject: Fwd: Mystery object... In-Reply-To: References: <4A23C85D.7000608@gmail.com> Message-ID: It looks like a 1940's tele-printer or fax station. Could what appears to be a train actually be a DC3 of Northwest Airlines? If it's a train then it's not a UK one. Wrong sort of windows and no signs that big on any UK train. The oblong console windows seem to have some sort of printer behind them. The square windows have what looks like paper tape punches or high speed tape readers behind them. Regards Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy Sent: 01 June 2009 14:59 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Fwd: Mystery object... At 7:23 AM -0500 6/1/09, Jules Richardson wrote: >We've got a chap looking for an ID on the following - anyone got any ideas? > >http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/tmp/mystery.jpg > >Photo dated May 27th 1947, apparently (so speculation so far is some >form of relay-based controller rather than a computer, but that's >merely a guess) My guess is something to do with trains, as that appears to be a passenger car in the background. Is this a UK photo? Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Mon Jun 1 09:42:45 2009 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 15:42:45 +0100 Subject: Mystery object... In-Reply-To: <4A23C85D.7000608@gmail.com> References: <4A23C85D.7000608@gmail.com> Message-ID: can we see a higher resolution scan Dave Caroline From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon Jun 1 09:45:47 2009 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 10:45:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: VCW Central PA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Saturday and Sunday, June 13th and 14th, I will be hosting a Vintage Computer Workshop in State College, PA. A couple of people from the Mid Atlantic Retro Computing Hobbyists (MARCH) will be working on various vintage computing projects, anything from S-100 systems to terminals to keypunches. Test equipment and parts will be on hand. Sorry, no 3-phase power. :-) State College is right in the middle of Pennsylvania, equally inconvenient from everywhere else in the state. If you'd like to attend, send me a note and I'll pass along the directions. If you're willing to drive, you're welcome to attend! Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Mon Jun 1 09:46:10 2009 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 15:46:10 +0100 Subject: Mystery object... In-Reply-To: <4A23C85D.7000608@gmail.com> References: <4A23C85D.7000608@gmail.com> Message-ID: <40DF43647F274C0E99E8588631CB7545@EDIConsultingLtd.local> More data The two free standing units on the left are almost certainly Teletype Model15-RO's (Manuf. 1930 - 1954) Regards Rod Smallwood I collect and restore old computer equipment with this logo. -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules Richardson Sent: 01 June 2009 13:24 To: xx Classiccmp mailing list Subject: Fwd: Mystery object... We've got a chap looking for an ID on the following - anyone got any ideas? http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/tmp/mystery.jpg Photo dated May 27th 1947, apparently (so speculation so far is some form of relay-based controller rather than a computer, but that's merely a guess) cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Jun 1 09:50:06 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 09:50:06 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Mystery object... In-Reply-To: References: <4A23C85D.7000608@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A23EA9E.4070500@gmail.com> Rod Smallwood wrote: > It looks like a 1940's tele-printer or fax station. Could what appears to be > a train actually be a DC3 of Northwest Airlines? If it's a train then it's > not a UK one. Wrong sort of windows and no signs that big on any UK train. You might be on to something about the Northwest Airlines; I thought it looked more like a train carriage (sides too straight for most plane fuselages) - but then someone over on TNMoC found a photo of a Boing 377 which is remarkably slab-sided (and would fit date-wise). There almost looks to be some sort of line/join across the top, just above the 'T' (which in itself is rather obscured by the foreground window) - seems a little out of place on a streamlined plane fuselage (and therefore more in keeping with a railway carriage), but maybe it's just paintwork. Afraid it's unknown as to which country the photo was taken in :-( > The oblong console windows seem to have some sort of printer behind them. > The square windows have what looks like paper tape punches or high speed > tape readers behind them. Yes, I'm not sure if they're control logic or just some sort of I/O device with acoustic shrouds fitted. cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Jun 1 09:51:00 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 09:51:00 -0500 Subject: Mystery object... In-Reply-To: References: <4A23C85D.7000608@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A23EAD4.7000803@gmail.com> Dave Caroline wrote: > can we see a higher resolution scan I can ask, but I suspect that's all there is, I'm afraid :( From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 1 11:19:27 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 09:19:27 -0700 Subject: Fwd: Mystery object... In-Reply-To: <4A23EA9E.4070500@gmail.com> References: <4A23C85D.7000608@gmail.com>, , <4A23EA9E.4070500@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A239D1F.19208.14BBAD@cclist.sydex.com> Others are correct--it's a Northwest Airlines Stratocruiser. See: http://www.ovi.ch/b377/pcs/nwa.html This was just before they became "Northwest Orient Airlines" ("The Proud Bird with the Golden Tail". My guess is that since Northwest was based at Sea-Tac, that some photos of operations from then might show similar equipment. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jun 1 11:23:38 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 12:23:38 -0400 Subject: plain perfboard In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <770F762E-A434-4D13-A23D-8BE1761E6B24@neurotica.com> On Jun 1, 2009, at 2:53 AM, David Griffith wrote: > It seemed to me that Radio Shack stopped selling plain perfboard a > year or two ago. Yet a couple days ago, I found lots of it at the > one a few blocks from my house. Anyone else know anything about > this? Solder-ringed perfboard is good for stuff, but I find plain > perfboard nice for building up stuff that's not necessarily a circuit. I wasn't aware that they had stopped selling it. I think I last bought some about a year ago. I'm going to make the rounds of the local Radio Shack stores and buy up all I can. I use those large pieces for projects, usually wire-wrapping. I'm curious, though...what do you build up on perfboard that's not a circuit? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Mon Jun 1 11:44:27 2009 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 17:44:27 +0100 Subject: Mystery object... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <84385B42-AE3A-4EA6-8A1F-9B24CD24AF20@microspot.co.uk> > > > From: "Rod Smallwood" > > > It looks like a 1940's tele-printer or fax station. Could what > appears to be > a train actually be a DC3 of Northwest Airlines? If it's a train > then it's > not a UK one. Wrong sort of windows and no signs that big on any UK > train. Yes, and the bulging thing behind it, which looks a bit like a car, is the tip of the right wing. The left wing appears to be either under this room or has not been fitted, assuming the picture was taken at an aircraft factory. Or a NOR gate :-) Roger Holmes. From james at jdfogg.com Mon Jun 1 12:10:09 2009 From: james at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 13:10:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fwd: Mystery object... In-Reply-To: <4A23C85D.7000608@gmail.com> References: <4A23C85D.7000608@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4461.192.168.99.119.1243876209.squirrel@webmail.jdfogg.com> > We've got a chap looking for an ID on the following - anyone got any > ideas? > > http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/tmp/mystery.jpg > > Photo dated May 27th 1947, apparently (so speculation so far is some form > of > relay-based controller rather than a computer, but that's merely a guess) My guess would be it's something for handling/sorting airline tickets. Until recently tickets were printed on card stock with various data fields like mag stripes, barcodes and other things. I never flew until 1988 so I don't know what they used prior, but it was probably similar, perhaps even regular punched cards. -- James - From tshoppa at wmata.com Mon Jun 1 12:11:03 2009 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 13:11:03 -0400 Subject: plain perfboard Message-ID: On Jun 1, 2009, at 2:53 AM, David Griffith wrote: > It seemed to me that Radio Shack stopped selling plain perfboard a > year or two ago. Yet a couple days ago, I found lots of it at the one > a few blocks from my house. Anyone else know anything about this? > Solder-ringed perfboard is good for stuff, but I find plain perfboard > nice for building up stuff that's not necessarily a circuit. A couple years ago I gave up on perfboard for prototyping and now largely do prototyping "dead bug" on unetched printed circuit board. Or, sometimes courtesy of a big knife, unetched PCB with busses cut into it. Google "dead bug" prototyping for some good examples. It is in every way superior to using perfboard. Even what I once thought were problem cases are not actually problems: dual-row headers work great with dead bug, as long as most or all the pins on one side are at ground (long the convention among any rational uses.) Tim. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 1 12:29:45 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 10:29:45 -0700 Subject: Fwd: Mystery object... In-Reply-To: <4461.192.168.99.119.1243876209.squirrel@webmail.jdfogg.com> References: <4A23C85D.7000608@gmail.com>, <4461.192.168.99.119.1243876209.squirrel@webmail.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <4A23AD99.24632.55189B@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jun 2009 at 13:10, James Fogg wrote: > My guess would be it's something for handling/sorting airline tickets. > Until recently tickets were printed on card stock with various data > fields like mag stripes, barcodes and other things. I never flew until > 1988 so I don't know what they used prior, but it was probably > similar, perhaps even regular punched cards. I think it's airport control. Teletype and facsimile were an essential part of operations back then (Fax was used to print weather maps). My first airplane flight was on Pan Am, with meals served from a menu on china and silverware. Flying, at one time, was something to be looked forward to--it was almost like going on a cruise. You were pampered. Now, you feel fortunate to be crammed into a sardine can on a late flight and not handcuffed and strip-searched at the terminal. How times have changed. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 1 12:34:11 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 10:34:11 -0700 Subject: plain perfboard In-Reply-To: <770F762E-A434-4D13-A23D-8BE1761E6B24@neurotica.com> References: , <770F762E-A434-4D13-A23D-8BE1761E6B24@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4A23AEA3.2868.59277C@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jun 2009 at 12:23, Dave McGuire wrote: > I wasn't aware that they had stopped selling it. I think I last > bought some about a year ago. I'm going to make the rounds of the > local Radio Shack stores and buy up all I can. I use those large > pieces for projects, usually wire-wrapping. The last time I looked (about a month ago), the local Radio Shack still had it on the pegs. Good naked FR4 perfboard in sizes bigger than 4x5 inches seems to be getting scarcer, however. The last time I ordered some from Web-tronics, it was on backorder for a couple of months. I don't care for the phenolic stuff in larger sizes--it seems to develop cracks too easily. --Chuck From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Jun 1 12:45:44 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 13:45:44 -0400 Subject: plain perfboard In-Reply-To: <770F762E-A434-4D13-A23D-8BE1761E6B24@neurotica.com> References: <770F762E-A434-4D13-A23D-8BE1761E6B24@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200906011345.44722.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 01 June 2009, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jun 1, 2009, at 2:53 AM, David Griffith wrote: > > It seemed to me that Radio Shack stopped selling plain perfboard a > > year or two ago. Yet a couple days ago, I found lots of it at the > > one a few blocks from my house. Anyone else know anything about > > this? Solder-ringed perfboard is good for stuff, but I find plain > > perfboard nice for building up stuff that's not necessarily a > > circuit. > > I wasn't aware that they had stopped selling it. I think I last > bought some about a year ago. I'm going to make the rounds of the > local Radio Shack stores and buy up all I can. I use those large > pieces for projects, usually wire-wrapping. They didn't really stop selling it, most stores just stopped re-stocking electronic components. That seems to have changed recently (within the past year), however. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From trag at io.com Mon Jun 1 12:50:56 2009 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 12:50:56 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Interfacing a 68000 to RAM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <869caa13a467fa97b87c6b8ae9568bf3.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> > > Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 06:50:55 -0700 > From: dwight elvey > Does anyone have a nice pointer to a diagram > of how the 68K bus is to be connected to RAM? > I not that familiar with all the various signals. > I've spent some time searching but maybe don't > have the right search string. > Dwight Do you want to interface with SRAM or DRAM? DRAM typically has multiplexed addresses (address sent in two sequential chunks on same wires) and so you're going to need some kind of memory controller to handle that plus refresh for the DRAM. If you're trying to interface with SRAM that typically just takes a straight address and does not require refresh, so it's much easier. I've only done it on the 68HC11 so your app may be different, but it is usually discussed in the part's User's Guide, so you should download that from Motorola if you have not already. Oh, and check for any relevant white papers on the topic as well (AKA Application Notes). Jeff Walther From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Jun 1 12:55:22 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 10:55:22 -0700 Subject: Interfacing a 68000 to RAM In-Reply-To: References: <4A23C85D.7000608@gmail.com> Message-ID: I think I have the design manual for that processor, but I'm reorganizing my shop so it's behind this and that.... I'll try to get to it later and if there's anything in particular that's helpful I'll scan it for you. -- Ian > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of dwight elvey > Sent: Monday, June 01, 2009 6:51 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Interfacing a 68000 to RAM > > > Hi > Does anyone have a nice pointer to a diagram > of how the 68K bus is to be connected to RAM? > I not that familiar with all the various signals. > I've spent some time searching but maybe don't > have the right search string. > Dwight > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail(r) has a new way to see what's up with your friends. > http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/WhatsNew?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_T > utorial_WhatsNew1_052009 From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 1 13:11:19 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 11:11:19 -0700 Subject: Interfacing a 68000 to RAM In-Reply-To: References: <4A23C85D.7000608@gmail.com>, Message-ID: <4A23B757.23952.7B2813@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jun 2009 at 6:50, dwight elvey wrote: > Does anyone have a nice pointer to a diagram > of how the 68K bus is to be connected to RAM? > I not that familiar with all the various signals. > I've spent some time searching but maybe don't > have the right search string. Download the 68K User's Manual from Freescale: http://www.freescale.com/files/32bit/doc/ref_manual/MC68000UM.pdf And check out Chapter 4. (It's actually very well-written) --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jun 1 13:38:08 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 14:38:08 -0400 Subject: Interfacing a 68000 to RAM In-Reply-To: <869caa13a467fa97b87c6b8ae9568bf3.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> References: <869caa13a467fa97b87c6b8ae9568bf3.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 1:50 PM, Jeff Walther wrote: > If you're trying to interface with SRAM that typically just takes a > straight address and does not require refresh, so it's much easier. It's especially easy if all of your memory and peripheral I/O chips are fast enough that you don't have to use DTACK to generate wait states... google for "DTACK Grounded" to find a stack of hardware design newsletters that advocate that simple technique. The 68000 design for the COMBOARD is not so simple, so we had a PAL to generate DTACK based on what subsystem was being accessed (1/4th of the 68000 memory map was a DMA interface to the Unibus/Qbus host backplane, so we had to wait for a host DMA cycle before we could assert DTACK for those addresses). A self-contained 68000 design should never have anything that complex to worry about, and now, peripheral chips and SRAMs are plenty speedy, even on a 68000 clocked 8MHz or faster. -ethan From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Jun 1 13:59:30 2009 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 12:59:30 -0600 Subject: Interfacing a 68000 to RAM In-Reply-To: References: <4A23C85D.7000608@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A242512.3060408@e-bbes.com> dwight elvey wrote: > Hi > Does anyone have a nice pointer to a diagram > of how the 68K bus is to be connected to RAM? > I not that familiar with all the various signals. > I've spent some time searching but maybe don't > have the right search string. Try something like "minimal 68000 system". I remember having an motorola application note with this (or similar) name. Are you trying to interface a real mc68000 or his later brothers ? Cheers From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 1 14:02:35 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 20:02:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: Interfacing a 68000 to RAM In-Reply-To: <4A23B757.23952.7B2813@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 1, 9 11:11:19 am Message-ID: > > On 1 Jun 2009 at 6:50, dwight elvey wrote: > > > Does anyone have a nice pointer to a diagram > > of how the 68K bus is to be connected to RAM? > > I not that familiar with all the various signals. > > I've spent some time searching but maybe don't > > have the right search string. > > Download the 68K User's Manual from Freescale: > > http://www.freescale.com/files/32bit/doc/ref_manual/MC68000UM.pdf > > And check out Chapter 4. (It's actually very well-written) You might also look at the _second edition_ of the 'Student Manual for the Art of Electronics' (or some similar title, I can get the exact title if you can't find it). That has a design for a 68008-based computer (processor + SRAM + hex keypd 'front panel') which can even be built on plugblock-type 'breadboards'. The 68000 is a very similar bus, so this should be applicable. IMHO this book explains things well. You don't just follow the schematic, you understnad why you're connecting various pins to each other. -tony From Mark at Misty.com Mon Jun 1 14:32:31 2009 From: Mark at Misty.com (Mark G. Thomas) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 15:32:31 -0400 Subject: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo In-Reply-To: <2B524E4E-1782-40D6-AAD2-3E10449A028A@neurotica.com> References: <4A1F1852.355206C9@cs.ubc.ca> <20090529123435.GJ31310@n0jcf.net> <1243676231.1093.23.camel@elric> <20090530224619.GO31310@n0jcf.net> <2B524E4E-1782-40D6-AAD2-3E10449A028A@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20090601193231.GA26422@lucky.misty.com> On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 01:08:49PM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > On May 30, 2009, at 6:46 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > >>So, you can't see a possible set of circumstances where having the > >>wrong > >>voltage coming in the serial port could cause the frequency shift > >>to be > >>wrong? His references to the modulating "interrupting" the tones was a horrible inaccuracy, especially considering the trouble he want to to make such an otherwise nice video. At first I thought he was just oversimplifying, but then it became clear he didn't understand it, when he started talking about wrong frequencies, and didn't get that the tone change when he connected the laptop was just the change from space to mark (or vice-versa?). > >>How clever do you think the tone generator side is? > > > >Well, as Tony replied-- I think that the RS232 input is a logic level. > >It's not an analog level. So, you are going to get either the mark > >tone > >or the space tone and not something in between. > > > >I think this situation was just a poor explaination of what went > >wrong. > >Whatever miscable situation he had caused him to generate the opposite > >tone of what he was expecting but not a tone that was off frequency > >from > >one of the two possibilities. Or, maybe the adapter was wired as a null modem or didn't have a DTR or some other line wired, so the tones weren't flipping at all, and he was just confused. > Was it in fact the opposite tones (i.e., mark/space reversed) or > could it have been an originate mode vs. answer mode issue? Many > (most?) modems could be switched between the two sets of tones. > > -Dave I used to have a number of wooden Anderson-Jacobson modems, and remember that they required the full +/-15V swing on those RS232 data lines. At some point I threw them out, since the terminal I was using only generated around +/-12V on the data lines -- not quite enough to make those modems change tones. I had other newer modems that were fine with the lower voltage. Clearly the modem in the video wasn't as picky as the old wooden AJ units I am familiar with or it wouldn't have worked for him at all. Mark -- Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com) voice: 215-591-3695 http://mail-cleaner.com/ From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon Jun 1 15:24:20 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 21:24:20 +0100 Subject: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo In-Reply-To: <20090601193231.GA26422@lucky.misty.com> References: <4A1F1852.355206C9@cs.ubc.ca> <20090529123435.GJ31310@n0jcf.net> <1243676231.1093.23.camel@elric> <20090530224619.GO31310@n0jcf.net> <2B524E4E-1782-40D6-AAD2-3E10449A028A@neurotica.com> <20090601193231.GA26422@lucky.misty.com> Message-ID: <1243887860.1093.45.camel@elric> On Mon, 2009-06-01 at 15:32 -0400, Mark G. Thomas wrote: > > At first I thought he was just oversimplifying, but then it became > clear he didn't understand it, when he started talking about wrong > frequencies, and didn't get that the tone change when he connected > the laptop was just the change from space to mark (or vice-versa?). > Okay, let's try again. I have a circa-70s 300-baud modem, that will generate incorrect tones when it's plugged into a USB-to-serial converter, but not when it's plugged into a real serial port. Why might this happen? Gordon From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Mon Jun 1 10:52:46 2009 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 17:52:46 +0200 Subject: Interfacing a 68000 to RAM In-Reply-To: References: <4A23C85D.7000608@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A23F94E.7080807@iais.fraunhofer.de> dwight elvey schrieb: > Hi > Does anyone have a nice pointer to a diagram > of how the 68K bus is to be connected to RAM? > I not that familiar with all the various signals. > I've spent some time searching but maybe don't > have the right search string. > Dwight Google search string may be "68000 schematics", and it will point to the first link of "68k Single Board Comupter" from "....ac.th" which hides the interesting part in a CPLD, but the second link will lead to a detailed PDF http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~theom/electronics/has/ha68ksys.pdf which describes the stuff. Basically, you can derive the relation of UDS, LDS, R/W, AS and DTACK from the data sheet, for interfacing RAM the trick part is just the generation of DTACK; as long as CPU clock and RAM access time is known, it is a straight forward wait state circuit. -- Holger From aceevans_95 at hotmail.com Mon Jun 1 14:49:07 2009 From: aceevans_95 at hotmail.com (Arthur Evans) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 19:49:07 +0000 Subject: Compaq SLT/286 Message-ID: DearSir Please can you tell me where the bios battery is situated as I cannot find it, also its voltage. Thankyou for any help. Yours faithfully. Arthur Evans. _________________________________________________________________ Share your photos with Windows Live Photos ? Free. http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/134665338/direct/01/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 1 15:15:14 2009 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 13:15:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How big of Sin? - Hacking up a IBM PC Jr. Message-ID: <656541.2095.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> OI why does hacking on a peanut deserve a one way ticket to Hell, and not rather just purgatory??? I'm not Catholic and don't believe that, but that's besides the point. Answer me this, just how much damage will you do to the unit? If you're just going to relocate the stantions to screw the new mobo into, that hardly amounts to an egregious offense IMHO, There's only one drive bay, and lt hard drives are so cheap, so the actual destruction should be minimal I guess. Just as long as you're not looking to run a server from it... You're not going to Hell. I'm just not allowing you to spend any quality time w/any of my JR's... From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Mon Jun 1 15:56:22 2009 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 21:56:22 +0100 Subject: Compaq SLT/286 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: back in those days some PC's had a Dallas chip the battery was potted inside so look for taller IC with Dallas printed on it Dave Caroline From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Mon Jun 1 15:56:39 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 17:56:39 -0300 Subject: Fwd: Mystery object... References: <4A23C85D.7000608@gmail.com>, <4461.192.168.99.119.1243876209.squirrel@webmail.jdfogg.com> <4A23AD99.24632.55189B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <068201c9e2fb$9b8e9050$0dce19bb@desktaba> > Now, you feel fortunate to be crammed into a sardine can on a late > flight and not handcuffed and strip-searched at the terminal. And pray not to die...Did you know about the air france plane who got lost in Brazil today? :o( From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jun 1 16:00:04 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 17:00:04 -0400 Subject: Compaq SLT/286 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 3:49 PM, Arthur Evans wrote: > Please can you tell me where the bios battery is situated as I cannot find it, also its voltage. The BIOS battery in a Compaq SLT/286 is embedded inside the Dallas DS1287 clock module. The battery itself is +3V, but you replace the entire module, chip _and_ battery in one go. This is entirely unlike "modern" PCs where you have a Lithium coin cell (CR2032, typically) accessible and easy to replace. It's easy to find discussions of this particular machine. Here's one... Physically, the DS1287 is located in the middle of the board, under the battery tray, but you have to dismantle the entire machine to get to it. Also, it's soldered in place. To make it harder, there's not enough vertical clearance to install a socket. I installed a low-profile socket in mine, but had to nibble a hole in the battery tray to make room for the replacement Dallas clock. It is not a trivial procedure to replace the DS1287 in a Compaq SLT/286, certainly not compared to popping a coin cell out and in. -ethan From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Jun 1 16:28:41 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 14:28:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: How big of Sin? - Hacking up a IBM PC Jr. In-Reply-To: <656541.2095.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <656541.2095.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Jun 2009, Chris M wrote: > OI why does hacking on a peanut deserve a one way ticket to Hell, and > not rather just purgatory??? I'm not Catholic and don't believe that, > but that's besides the point. Answer me this, just how much damage will > you do to the unit? If you're just going to relocate the stantions to > screw the new mobo into, that hardly amounts to an egregious offense > IMHO, There's only one drive bay, and lt hard drives are so cheap, so > the actual destruction should be minimal I guess. Just as long as you're > not looking to run a server from it... You're not going to Hell. I'm > just not allowing you to spend any quality time w/any of my JR's... FWIW, I have a couple Jrs that I've been unable to sell. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Jun 1 20:16:20 2009 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 20:16:20 -0500 Subject: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo In-Reply-To: <1243887860.1093.45.camel@elric> References: <4A1F1852.355206C9@cs.ubc.ca> <20090529123435.GJ31310@n0jcf.net> <1243676231.1093.23.camel@elric> <20090530224619.GO31310@n0jcf.net> <2B524E4E-1782-40D6-AAD2-3E10449A028A@neurotica.com> <20090601193231.GA26422@lucky.misty.com> <1243887860.1093.45.camel@elric> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20090601201242.03e96008@mail.threedee.com> At 03:24 PM 6/1/2009, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >Okay, let's try again. I have a circa-70s 300-baud modem, that will >generate incorrect tones when it's plugged into a USB-to-serial >converter, but not when it's plugged into a real serial port. >Why might this happen? USB only guarantees to supply 100 milliamps. Up to 500 mA can be negotiated with the controller, depending. Might your older device depend on more amps than the USB adapter can supply? - John From useddec at gmail.com Mon Jun 1 21:56:05 2009 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 21:56:05 -0500 Subject: Further 11/40 unibus questions... In-Reply-To: <4A238FFF.8040000@mail.msu.edu> References: <4A234D6E.1060903@mail.msu.edu> <4A238FFF.8040000@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <624966d60906011956m1a18c4a6w2ab49d1e632d9304@mail.gmail.com> I always used a M930 in the 11/40 and older machines, and the M9300 in the 11/34 and newer machines. I have no way to check on the differences now. now. Also, there may be a trick using MOS in an 11/40. Paul On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 3:23 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > > Henk Gooijen wrote: > >> Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 20:39:26 -0700 >>> From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu >>> To: >>> Subject: Further 11/40 unibus questions... >>> >>> Hi all -- >>> >>> Still having trouble with my 11/40, though it's getting closer. >>> >>> Currently the issue is: >>> >>> Without a unibus terminator installed, the machine seems to function in >>> that I can use the front panel, toggle in and run short programs, etc. >>> >>> With a unibus terminator installed, the front panel is _almost_ >>> unresponsive -- I cannot examine or deposit memory or load addresses. >>> Toggling "Run" causes a brief flicker of activity (the "Run," "Proc," >>> and "Bus" lights come on, the data lights flicker, and then they turn >>> off, and the "Console" light comes back on.). >>> >>> Ian lent me his M9300 terminator, which caused no changes in behavior. >>> So at least I can (probably) rule out a faulty terminator. >>> >>> I've verified that grant continuity cards (the tiny annoying ones) are >>> installed in slot D of all empty Unibus slots, and that the NPG jumper >>> is installed in all slots (since I currently have no DMA devices >>> installed). >>> >>> Question: Should the NPG jumper _also_ be installed in the one SPC >>> Unibus slot on the processor backplane? (I have a console SLU installed >>> there currently.) This does not currently appear to be present. >>> >>> Before I break out the logic analyzer this evening and start debugging >>> Unibus termination signals, I just wanted to make sure my current >>> configuration seems sane. >>> >>> The boards are installed as follows: >>> >>> Rear: >>> >>> Slot 4 : Empty M9300 >>> Slot 3 : Empty >>> Slot 2 : M7891 >>> Slot 1 : Empty | M981 >>> --- >>> Slot 9 : M7856 | M981 >>> Slots 1-8: >>> Front: >>> >>> (As mentioned before, all "empty" unibus slots have a unibus grant card >>> + NPG jumper installed, Slot 3 has the NPG jumper installed.) >>> >>> Thanks once again, >>> Josh >>> >>> >> >> The machine seems to do something (for a short while that is). >> The only thing I can say is what I have encountered. I was triggered >> when you wrote that you have the M7856 in slot 9 ... make sure that the >> CA1-CB1 (NPG) pins are wired together on the backplane! The M7856 is >> one of the modules that does not use NPG, but also does NOT connect the >> two pins on the module! I have that written on my webpage www.pdp-11.nl >> (peripheral - comm - interface modules - DL11-W). >> I remember that I soldered a wire on the module to connect those two >> pins, >> as I did not want to mess with the backplane ... If you do so, make sure >> that no flux and tin gets on the contact fingers! >> >> - Henk. >> >> >> > Thanks -- installed the NPG jumper for slot 9, no change. > > Here's a question: The M9300 Ian lent me has three jumpers, labeled as > follows: > > W1 : "Remove jumper for beginning of non processor bus termination" > W2 : "Remove jumper for end of bus termination" > W3 : "Remove jumper for end of processor bus termination" > > Currently, W1 is installed, W2 and W3 are removed. Is this correct? > > I'm curious what is meant by "processor bus" vs. just "bus" in this context > -- can someone fill me in? > > Thanks, > Josh > > From useddec at gmail.com Mon Jun 1 21:59:31 2009 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 21:59:31 -0500 Subject: Further 11/40 unibus questions... In-Reply-To: <624966d60906011956m1a18c4a6w2ab49d1e632d9304@mail.gmail.com> References: <4A234D6E.1060903@mail.msu.edu> <4A238FFF.8040000@mail.msu.edu> <624966d60906011956m1a18c4a6w2ab49d1e632d9304@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <624966d60906011959j46c6d499h8090ac281b45bd1f@mail.gmail.com> IS the 4 slot backplane a DD11-BF or a DD11-CF? I don't think the M7891 will work in the -BF. On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 9:56 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > I always used a M930 in the 11/40 and older machines, and the M9300 in the > 11/34 and newer machines. I have no way to check on the differences > now. now. Also, there may be a trick using MOS in an 11/40. > > Paul > > On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 3:23 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > >> >> >> Henk Gooijen wrote: >> >>> Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 20:39:26 -0700 >>>> From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu >>>> To: >>>> Subject: Further 11/40 unibus questions... >>>> >>>> Hi all -- >>>> >>>> Still having trouble with my 11/40, though it's getting closer. >>>> >>>> Currently the issue is: >>>> >>>> Without a unibus terminator installed, the machine seems to function in >>>> that I can use the front panel, toggle in and run short programs, etc. >>>> >>>> With a unibus terminator installed, the front panel is _almost_ >>>> unresponsive -- I cannot examine or deposit memory or load addresses. >>>> Toggling "Run" causes a brief flicker of activity (the "Run," "Proc," >>>> and "Bus" lights come on, the data lights flicker, and then they turn >>>> off, and the "Console" light comes back on.). >>>> >>>> Ian lent me his M9300 terminator, which caused no changes in behavior. >>>> So at least I can (probably) rule out a faulty terminator. >>>> >>>> I've verified that grant continuity cards (the tiny annoying ones) are >>>> installed in slot D of all empty Unibus slots, and that the NPG jumper >>>> is installed in all slots (since I currently have no DMA devices >>>> installed). >>>> >>>> Question: Should the NPG jumper _also_ be installed in the one SPC >>>> Unibus slot on the processor backplane? (I have a console SLU installed >>>> there currently.) This does not currently appear to be present. >>>> >>>> Before I break out the logic analyzer this evening and start debugging >>>> Unibus termination signals, I just wanted to make sure my current >>>> configuration seems sane. >>>> >>>> The boards are installed as follows: >>>> >>>> Rear: >>>> >>>> Slot 4 : Empty M9300 >>>> Slot 3 : Empty >>>> Slot 2 : M7891 >>>> Slot 1 : Empty | M981 >>>> --- >>>> Slot 9 : M7856 | M981 >>>> Slots 1-8: >>>> Front: >>>> >>>> (As mentioned before, all "empty" unibus slots have a unibus grant card >>>> + NPG jumper installed, Slot 3 has the NPG jumper installed.) >>>> >>>> Thanks once again, >>>> Josh >>>> >>>> >>> >>> The machine seems to do something (for a short while that is). >>> The only thing I can say is what I have encountered. I was triggered >>> when you wrote that you have the M7856 in slot 9 ... make sure that the >>> CA1-CB1 (NPG) pins are wired together on the backplane! The M7856 is >>> one of the modules that does not use NPG, but also does NOT connect the >>> two pins on the module! I have that written on my webpage www.pdp-11.nl >>> (peripheral - comm - interface modules - DL11-W). >>> I remember that I soldered a wire on the module to connect those two >>> pins, >>> as I did not want to mess with the backplane ... If you do so, make sure >>> that no flux and tin gets on the contact fingers! >>> >>> - Henk. >>> >>> >>> >> Thanks -- installed the NPG jumper for slot 9, no change. >> >> Here's a question: The M9300 Ian lent me has three jumpers, labeled as >> follows: >> >> W1 : "Remove jumper for beginning of non processor bus termination" >> W2 : "Remove jumper for end of bus termination" >> W3 : "Remove jumper for end of processor bus termination" >> >> Currently, W1 is installed, W2 and W3 are removed. Is this correct? >> >> I'm curious what is meant by "processor bus" vs. just "bus" in this >> context -- can someone fill me in? >> >> Thanks, >> Josh >> >> > From lynchaj at yahoo.com Mon Jun 1 22:09:10 2009 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 23:09:10 -0400 Subject: wire wrap machine pins Message-ID: Hi! Does anyone know where to get those rows of individual machine pins for wire wrapping? I have searched for them but no luck so far. I know they come in bags of rows of 50 pins or so as I've seen them but can't find who sells them. Alternatively, break away wire wrap machine pin SIP sockets would also work. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Mon Jun 1 22:49:42 2009 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 04:49:42 +0100 Subject: Fwd: Mystery object... In-Reply-To: <4461.192.168.99.119.1243876209.squirrel@webmail.jdfogg.com> References: <4A23C85D.7000608@gmail.com> <4461.192.168.99.119.1243876209.squirrel@webmail.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: I don't know about tickets. I would have thought passenger lists, weather data, cargo manifests, or dispatch documents more likely. Regards Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of James Fogg Sent: 01 June 2009 18:10 To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: Fwd: Mystery object... > We've got a chap looking for an ID on the following - anyone got any > ideas? > > http://www.classiccmp.org/acornia/tmp/mystery.jpg > > Photo dated May 27th 1947, apparently (so speculation so far is some form > of > relay-based controller rather than a computer, but that's merely a guess) My guess would be it's something for handling/sorting airline tickets. Until recently tickets were printed on card stock with various data fields like mag stripes, barcodes and other things. I never flew until 1988 so I don't know what they used prior, but it was probably similar, perhaps even regular punched cards. -- James - From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 1 23:26:12 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 21:26:12 -0700 Subject: wire wrap machine pins In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A244774.28323.2AE21D7@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jun 2009 at 23:09, Andrew Lynch wrote: > Hi! Does anyone know where to get those rows of individual machine > pins for wire wrapping? Well, check out DigiKey part nos. V1058-ND, V1059-ND, V1060-ND for individual pins. Or are you looking for SIP wire-wrap sockets? Cheers, Chuck From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Tue Jun 2 00:15:49 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 22:15:49 -0700 Subject: Further 11/40 unibus questions... In-Reply-To: <624966d60906011959j46c6d499h8090ac281b45bd1f@mail.gmail.com> References: <4A234D6E.1060903@mail.msu.edu> <4A238FFF.8040000@mail.msu.edu> <624966d60906011956m1a18c4a6w2ab49d1e632d9304@mail.gmail.com> <624966d60906011959j46c6d499h8090ac281b45bd1f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A24B585.2090106@mail.msu.edu> Paul Anderson wrote: > IS the 4 slot backplane a DD11-BF or a DD11-CF? I don't think the M7891 > will work in the -BF. > It's a DD11-C backplane. The memory appears to work fine (I did some basic testing of it from the front panel w/out the terminator installed.) Thanks, Josh > On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 9:56 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > > >> I always used a M930 in the 11/40 and older machines, and the M9300 in the >> 11/34 and newer machines. I have no way to check on the differences >> now. now. Also, there may be a trick using MOS in an 11/40. >> >> Paul >> >> On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 3:23 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> >> >> >>>> The machine seems to do something (for a short while that is). >>>> The only thing I can say is what I have encountered. I was triggered >>>> when you wrote that you have the M7856 in slot 9 ... make sure that the >>>> CA1-CB1 (NPG) pins are wired together on the backplane! The M7856 is >>>> one of the modules that does not use NPG, but also does NOT connect the >>>> two pins on the module! I have that written on my webpage www.pdp-11.nl >>>> (peripheral - comm - interface modules - DL11-W). >>>> I remember that I soldered a wire on the module to connect those two >>>> pins, >>>> as I did not want to mess with the backplane ... If you do so, make sure >>>> that no flux and tin gets on the contact fingers! >>>> >>>> - Henk. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> Thanks -- installed the NPG jumper for slot 9, no change. >>> >>> Here's a question: The M9300 Ian lent me has three jumpers, labeled as >>> follows: >>> >>> W1 : "Remove jumper for beginning of non processor bus termination" >>> W2 : "Remove jumper for end of bus termination" >>> W3 : "Remove jumper for end of processor bus termination" >>> >>> Currently, W1 is installed, W2 and W3 are removed. Is this correct? >>> >>> I'm curious what is meant by "processor bus" vs. just "bus" in this >>> context -- can someone fill me in? >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Josh >>> >>> >>> > > > From gene at ehrich.com Mon Jun 1 22:33:11 2009 From: gene at ehrich.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 23:33:11 -0400 Subject: Vintage-Computer Message-ID: <20090602033338714.IUMU11757@hrndva-omta02.mail.rr.com> Has anyone here used this web site for buying and selling computer items? http://www.vintage-computer.com From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Jun 2 02:02:25 2009 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 09:02:25 +0200 Subject: Vintage-Computer In-Reply-To: <20090602033338714.IUMU11757@hrndva-omta02.mail.rr.com> References: <20090602033338714.IUMU11757@hrndva-omta02.mail.rr.com> Message-ID: <20090602070225.GA20054@Update.UU.SE> On Mon, Jun 01, 2009 at 11:33:11PM -0400, Gene Ehrich wrote: > Has anyone here used this web site for buying and selling computer items? > > http://www.vintage-computer.com > > Not personaly, but I'm active on its forums and bought things from other members of the forums without problems. Cheers, Pontus. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Jun 2 02:06:06 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 00:06:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vintage-Computer In-Reply-To: <20090602033338714.IUMU11757@hrndva-omta02.mail.rr.com> References: <20090602033338714.IUMU11757@hrndva-omta02.mail.rr.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Jun 2009, Gene Ehrich wrote: > Has anyone here used this web site for buying and selling computer items? > > http://www.vintage-computer.com $185 for a newer Model M??? http://marketplace.vintage-computer.com/New-white-IBM-Model-M13-clicky-TrackPoint-keyboard-manufactured-February-12-1997,name,103121,auction_id,auction_details -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From bqt at softjar.se Tue Jun 2 03:45:08 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 10:45:08 +0200 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 70, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A24E694.8010800@softjar.se> cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Message: 21 Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 20:16:20 -0500 From: John Foust Subject: Re: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo To: Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20090601201242.03e96008 at mail.threedee.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 03:24 PM 6/1/2009, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >> >Okay, let's try again. I have a circa-70s 300-baud modem, that will >> >generate incorrect tones when it's plugged into a USB-to-serial >> >converter, but not when it's plugged into a real serial port. >> >Why might this happen? > > USB only guarantees to supply 100 milliamps. Up to 500 mA can be > negotiated with the controller, depending. Might your older device > depend on more amps than the USB adapter can supply? Huh? The RS-232-port isn't supposed to deliver any power at all. Some devices admittedly abused the RS-232 by using something like DTR to actually supply the power needed to drive the thing, but that is abuse. But I'd be surprised if a circa-70s modem was ever designed to use the power from the RS-232 port to drive the modem itself. I'd expect it to have an external power supply. The problem description is a bit vague. How do you know it is generating incorrect tones? Have you used a frequency analyser to check the tone frequencies? Or might it just be that what has been observed is that the modem don't work when used with the USB-to-serial? If so, then we have a number of possible problems, none of which neccesarily is a problem with the modem. Or is it just a case of listening to the modem while plugging in the cable, and not the same thing happening on the different serial ports. Might the USB-to-serial not start driving signals until something talks to it on the software side? I'd start by checking that the USB-to-serial really delivers correct voltages. Break out the oscilloscope. Next, I'd check if the USB-to-serial is happy without all kind of signal "right", and if the modem supplies all the "right" signals. Also check cables. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at softjar.se Tue Jun 2 03:52:25 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 10:52:25 +0200 Subject: Further 11/40 unibus questions... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A24E849.4050203@softjar.se> Paul Anderson wrote: > I always used a M930 in the 11/40 and older machines, and the M9300 in the > 11/34 and newer machines. I have no way to check on the differences > now. now. Also, there may be a trick using MOS in an 11/40. I can't remember that there should be any functional difference between a M930 and a M9300. The later is just an improved design. As for the original posters problems. When you get a stuck machine when the terminator is in, but a somewhat more functional machine when the bus terminator is out, you have a problem on the bus. Most likely a bus grant or NPR grant. A third possibility is a problem in the CPU with the logic related to these signals. I'd go over the bus grants once more. Check that they *really* are the right way, since it's so easy to put them in the wrong way, and there is basically no visible clue to which way they should go. Look at some other card to get help. They will also have connections on the same places the BG cards have, except they will likely run them up to the priority plug. If you have some Unibus memory, they are nice, since they have the BG lines wired straight through, just like the BG cards. I would have started by removing *all* cards from the Unibus (with the exception of some memory), and make sure all bus grants and NPRs were in, the terminator was in place and that all power supplies were delivering the right voltage. Also check that all cards in the CPU box are in place, and are firmly seated. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at softjar.se Tue Jun 2 03:55:28 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 10:55:28 +0200 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 70, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A24E900.8060009@softjar.se> On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 3:23 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Here's a question: The M9300 Ian lent me has three jumpers, labeled as > follows: > > W1 : "Remove jumper for beginning of non processor bus termination" > W2 : "Remove jumper for end of bus termination" > W3 : "Remove jumper for end of processor bus termination" > > Currently, W1 is installed, W2 and W3 are removed. Is this correct? Don't know for sure. Look in a manual? :-) > I'm curious what is meant by "processor bus" vs. just "bus" in this context > -- can someone fill me in? Some CPUs (can't remember about the 11/40 anymore) use an M930 (or M9300) at the beginning of the CPU as well as at the end of the Unibus. The 11/70 for example. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Tue Jun 2 08:20:35 2009 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 06:20:35 -0700 Subject: Vintage-Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <113A8143B1B04C1FA6DAA4E1513C9921@NFORCE4> >> http://www.vintage-computer.com > $185 for a newer Model M??? > http://marketplace.vintage-computer.com/New-white-IBM-Model-M13-clicky-Track Point-keyboard-manufactured-February-12-1997,name,103121,auction_id,auction_ details The Vintage Computer and Gaming Marketplace is an auction site (free) which means that, like eBay, it's up to the seller to set their price. Some folks can be, uh, optimistic. . . :) The nice thing is that since the site is dedicated to our hobby the folks using it are usually amenable to constructive criticism. . . ----- Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum - The Vintage Computer Forums marketplace.vintage-computer.com - The Vintage Computer and Gaming Marketplace From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Tue Jun 2 08:27:45 2009 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 06:27:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple Preliminary Macintosh Business Plan and IPO Memorandum Now Accessible on CHM Website Message-ID: <760402.86042.qm@web112212.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> http://www.marketwire.com/press-release/Computer-History-Museum-998047.html From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jun 2 08:53:13 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 06:53:13 -0700 Subject: Interfacing a 68000 to RAM In-Reply-To: <4A23F94E.7080807@iais.fraunhofer.de> References: <4A23C85D.7000608@gmail.com> <4A23F94E.7080807@iais.fraunhofer.de> Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 17:52:46 +0200 > From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de > To: > Subject: Re: Interfacing a 68000 to RAM > > dwight elvey schrieb: >> Hi >> Does anyone have a nice pointer to a diagram >> of how the 68K bus is to be connected to RAM? >> I not that familiar with all the various signals. >> I've spent some time searching but maybe don't >> have the right search string. >> Dwight > > Google search string may be "68000 schematics", and it will point to the > first link > of "68k Single Board Comupter" from "....ac.th" which hides the > interesting part > in a CPLD, but the second link will lead to a detailed PDF > http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~theom/electronics/has/ha68ksys.pdf > which describes the stuff. > > Basically, you can derive the relation of UDS, LDS, R/W, AS and DTACK > from the > data sheet, for interfacing RAM the trick part is just the generation of > DTACK; > as long as CPU clock and RAM access time is known, it is a straight forward > wait state circuit. > > -- > Holger > Hi Thanks for the pointers guys. I should have given more information. It is SRAM and it is fast SRAM 55ns. It is a real 68000 8MHz. It seens that most seem to prefer the DTACK method over the synchronous one. Is faster or just more versitle? What I'm doing is to try to find the best way to connect to my Canon Cat. At the Information Apliances Inc they had a daughter board that they had 128k words of RAM on (256kb). It was used to recompile the ROM code for the Cat. My understand is that it had a read/write address of A00000H while there was a switch to allow it to shadow the ROM at 00H. I don't think I need the shadow capability since I'd be happy to just create ROM images. I'm of course looking for a way to do this with a minimum of cuts and hacks. I'd prefer to do this with just added sockets and wires. There are 2 empty 28pin locations that were intended for ROMs that I can get most of the address and data lines from but the parts I have are 32pin. I'll be stacking machine pin sockets and removing the pins from the lower one where I'll need to change or jumper to something else. There is one CE* strobe from the ASCIs inside that I might be able to use, so long as they didn't include the LDS signal in its decoding. For these ROMs, they treated them as byte sources. This ROM enable was for extended spell checking dictionary. Doing this has the advantage that the handshake to the CPU is already done and doesn't require added circuit. The disadvantage is that it is at 240000H instead of A00000H, requiring some code change. If this doesn't work, I'll need to hijack the address and controls earlier. I'll need to at least cut into either the DTACK or the VPA line to add my own signal. I've been ohming these lines in a powered down circuit and it looks like they have about a 1K pulup on them but there is no pulup resistor seen on the board, by tracing the lines. I can only figure it must be inside the ASIC. If it is a O.C. line, I can just force it low without having to cut. If it is a full pushpull, I'll need to cut the wire. I do have a plan for how I might also do the shadowing. I can mount the system ROMs on machine sockets and devert the CE* signals. It is in the same area as the location I expect to mount the additional RAMs. The data lines are unbuffered to the 68000 so it should work. First things first, get it to see the added RAM. I should mention that we have source code for the latest ROM version. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_BR_life_in_synch_062009 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jun 2 09:02:33 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 07:02:33 -0700 Subject: plain perfboard In-Reply-To: <200906011345.44722.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <770F762E-A434-4D13-A23D-8BE1761E6B24@neurotica.com> <200906011345.44722.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > From: pat at computer-refuge.org > On Monday 01 June 2009, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On Jun 1, 2009, at 2:53 AM, David Griffith wrote: >>> It seemed to me that Radio Shack stopped selling plain perfboard a >>> year or two ago. Yet a couple days ago, I found lots of it at the >>> one a few blocks from my house. Anyone else know anything about >>> this? Solder-ringed perfboard is good for stuff, but I find plain >>> perfboard nice for building up stuff that's not necessarily a >>> circuit. >> >> I wasn't aware that they had stopped selling it. I think I last >> bought some about a year ago. I'm going to make the rounds of the >> local Radio Shack stores and buy up all I can. I use those large >> pieces for projects, usually wire-wrapping. > > They didn't really stop selling it, most stores just stopped re-stocking > electronic components. That seems to have changed recently (within the > past year), however. > > Pat > Hi Jameco had a good selection of different perf board shapes, sizes and materials. Not cheap but a good selection. They ship really fast. I live in the bay area and usually get my order the next day if ordered before noon the day before. If you need specialty board, such as for a older PC or S-100 try Anchor Electronics. They have these things as well. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_BR_life_in_synch_062009 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jun 2 09:04:33 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 07:04:33 -0700 Subject: wire wrap machine pins In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > From: lynchaj at yahoo.com > > Hi! Does anyone know where to get those rows of individual machine pins for > wire wrapping? > > > > I have searched for them but no luck so far. I know they come in bags of > rows of 50 pins or so as I've seen them but can't find who sells them. > > > > Alternatively, break away wire wrap machine pin SIP sockets would also work. > > > > Thanks and have a nice day! > > Andrew Lynch > Hi It seems I just saw those in the Jameco catalog. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail? has ever-growing storage! Don?t worry about storage limits. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Storage_062009 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jun 2 09:18:33 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 10:18:33 -0400 Subject: Interfacing a 68000 to RAM In-Reply-To: References: <4A23C85D.7000608@gmail.com> <4A23F94E.7080807@iais.fraunhofer.de> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 9:53 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > Hi > ?Thanks for the pointers guys. I should have given more information. > It is SRAM and it is fast SRAM 55ns. It is a real 68000 8MHz. OK... that RAM is plenty fast enough, but you also need to ensure any memory-mapped peripheral I/O chips are also fast enough if you want to ground DTACK. We had 4MHz 8530 UARTs, so we _had_ to use DTACK in the "expected" way. > ?It seens that most seem to prefer the DTACK method over the synchronous one. Is faster or just more versitle? Simple designs can ground DTACK, more complex designs tend to use DTACK normally, especially to be able to use less expensive memory. These days, if I were building a 68000 design, I'd look at fast memory and fast I/O chips and just do it in the simplest way possible - when you ground DTACK, what you are doing is telling the CPU that at the time in the cycle that it would check (and wait on) DTACK, the transfer has already happened (Data Transfer ACKnowledge) - the CPU doesn't have to wait _ever_. In a mixed-speed design, if some component is fast enough, DTACK will be grounded at that point in time anyway, but through handshaking, not because it was permanently tied to ground. > ?What I'm doing is to try to find the best way to connect > to my Canon Cat.... > ?There are 2 empty 28pin locations that were intended for ROMs Are you trying to do ROM development? Why not use a plug-in ROM emulator? (I like the PromICE, but it's made by someone that I've known and worked with, starting 25 years ago, so if you have a favorite or get one for free, by all means, use it). You don't have to do any target-machine hacking - you get a rig that matches your target (28-pin cables, 24-pin cables, 32-pin cables, 256Kx8, 128Kx16, whatever) - and the PromICE is somewhat configurable in that respect - then compile the code and download it. It could be tricky if you need the target machine to compile your code because of the tools needed, but you could have the Cat make the code, transfer it to another machine via serial port or network, then keep ROM images on the other machine so you can try new code and revert back to working code if you compile up a dud. I would hesitate to make recommendations on how to hack into an existing design without schematics in front of me, but if all you are trying to do is get writable ROMs, I'd seriously recommend a ROM emulator that's externally loadable (built or bought, makes no difference there). -ethan From steve at cosam.org Tue Jun 2 10:19:53 2009 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 17:19:53 +0200 Subject: TK50 tribulations Message-ID: <95838e090906020819v36d45508j4fa8f0a746c73c61@mail.gmail.com> Hi all, I recently dug out a TK50 I was tinkering with before and am having some trouble diagnosing what's up with it. It arrived with a tape stuck in it, but I've since managed to persuade that out and a good clean up had it loading and ejecting properly. Now any read or write just results in a bit of shoeshining, whereafter it goes into its light-show routine. Yes, I should probably just admit defeat and keep it for parts, but it seems so close to working I thought I'd take another stab. The technical manual lists all manner of error codes which should narrow things down. I'm however at a loss as to how one should extract them from the drive/controller. I've had it hooked up to a PDP-11 and XXDP said nothing more than that the drive was faulty. I also have a MicroVAX II (where it actually came from) but I've not been able to run diagnostics on there due to lack of a floppy drive. I did experiment with an RX33, some RX50 images and a PC to write them, but the MicroVAX doesn't want to boot them. Any ideas? Cheers, -- Steve Maddison http://www.cosam.org/ From dgahling at hotmail.com Tue Jun 2 10:29:34 2009 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 11:29:34 -0400 Subject: Vintage-Computer In-Reply-To: <113A8143B1B04C1FA6DAA4E1513C9921@NFORCE4> References: <113A8143B1B04C1FA6DAA4E1513C9921@NFORCE4> Message-ID: Wow, Erik replied to someone ;) I bought something off there a while back, after the purchase was shipped, didn't get my feedback, and no response to emails. however, the purchase, transaction and shipping was excellent and lots of communication during the transaction, so... Dan. > From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: Vintage-Computer > Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 06:20:35 -0700 > > >> http://www.vintage-computer.com > > > $185 for a newer Model M??? > > > > http://marketplace.vintage-computer.com/New-white-IBM-Model-M13-clicky-Track > Point-keyboard-manufactured-February-12-1997,name,103121,auction_id,auction_ > details > > The Vintage Computer and Gaming Marketplace is an auction site (free) which > means that, like eBay, it's up to the seller to set their price. > > Some folks can be, uh, optimistic. . . :) > > The nice thing is that since the site is dedicated to our hobby the folks > using it are usually amenable to constructive criticism. . . > > ----- > Erik Klein > www.vintage-computer.com > www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum - The Vintage Computer Forums > marketplace.vintage-computer.com - The Vintage Computer and Gaming > Marketplace > > _________________________________________________________________ Internet explorer 8 lets you browse the web faster. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9655582 From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Jun 2 10:31:06 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 08:31:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TK50 tribulations Message-ID: <965232.16843.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 6/2/09, Steve Maddison wrote: > I recently dug out a TK50 I was tinkering with before and > am having > some trouble diagnosing what's up with it. It arrived with > a tape > stuck in it, but I've since managed to persuade that out > and a good > clean up had it loading and ejecting properly. Now any read > or write > just results in a bit of shoeshining, whereafter it goes > into its > light-show routine. Yes, I should probably just admit > defeat and keep > it for parts, but it seems so close to working I thought > I'd take > another stab. Did you clean the heads AND the leader strip? I had one with so much fuzz on it that it would have surely gunked up the heads straight away. You can clean the leader with alcohol, just like the heads. Sometimes these things need multiple cleanings... I assume you've got this connected to a PDP-11 or Vax that you're using to write to it, and that this isn't the SCSI flavored TK50Z. I ran into a similar problem with a TK50Z on a linux box - constant shoeshining. Turns out that I had to set the buffer in mt. After that, it worked just fine. -Ian From emu at e-bbes.com Tue Jun 2 10:33:41 2009 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 09:33:41 -0600 Subject: TK50 tribulations In-Reply-To: <95838e090906020819v36d45508j4fa8f0a746c73c61@mail.gmail.com> References: <95838e090906020819v36d45508j4fa8f0a746c73c61@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A254655.5060909@e-bbes.com> Steve Maddison wrote: > Hi all, > > I recently dug out a TK50 I was tinkering with before and am having > some trouble diagnosing what's up with it. It arrived with a tape > stuck in it, but I've since managed to persuade that out and a good > clean up had it loading and ejecting properly. Now any read or write > just results in a bit of shoeshining, whereafter it goes into its > light-show routine. Yes, I should probably just admit defeat and keep > it for parts, but it seems so close to working I thought I'd take > another stab. Did you also clean the LEDs ? The tach ? Cheers From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 2 10:39:26 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 11:39:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 70, Issue 3 Message-ID: <63620.76.2.120.32.1243957166.squirrel@mail.neurotica.com> On Tue, June 2, 2009 4:45 am, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> USB only guarantees to supply 100 milliamps. Up to 500 mA can be >> negotiated with the controller, depending. Might your older device >> depend on more amps than the USB adapter can supply? > > Huh? The RS-232-port isn't supposed to deliver any power at all. Some > devices admittedly abused the RS-232 by using something like DTR to > actually supply the power needed to drive the thing, but that is abuse. > > But I'd be surprised if a circa-70s modem was ever designed to use the > power from the RS-232 port to drive the modem itself. I'd expect it to > have an external power supply. He's not talking about powering the device, he's talking about driving the signal lines. Their input impedance isn't infinite, you know! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jun 2 10:46:14 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 08:46:14 -0700 Subject: Interfacing a 68000 to RAM In-Reply-To: References: <4A23C85D.7000608@gmail.com> <4A23F94E.7080807@iais.fraunhofer.de> Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 10:18:33 -0400 > Subject: Re: Interfacing a 68000 to RAM > From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 9:53 AM, dwight elvey wrote: >> Hi >> Thanks for the pointers guys. I should have given more information. >> It is SRAM and it is fast SRAM 55ns. It is a real 68000 8MHz. > > OK... that RAM is plenty fast enough, but you also need to ensure any > memory-mapped peripheral I/O chips are also fast enough if you want to > ground DTACK. We had 4MHz 8530 UARTs, so we _had_ to use DTACK in the > "expected" way. > >> It seens that most seem to prefer the DTACK method over the synchronous one. Is faster or just more versitle? > > Simple designs can ground DTACK, more complex designs tend to use > DTACK normally, especially to be able to use less expensive memory. > These days, if I were building a 68000 design, I'd look at fast memory > and fast I/O chips and just do it in the simplest way possible - when > you ground DTACK, what you are doing is telling the CPU that at the > time in the cycle that it would check (and wait on) DTACK, the > transfer has already happened (Data Transfer ACKnowledge) - the CPU > doesn't have to wait _ever_. In a mixed-speed design, if some > component is fast enough, DTACK will be grounded at that point in time > anyway, but through handshaking, not because it was permanently tied > to ground. > >> What I'm doing is to try to find the best way to connect >> to my Canon Cat.... >> There are 2 empty 28pin locations that were intended for ROMs > > Are you trying to do ROM development? Why not use a plug-in ROM > emulator? (I like the PromICE, but it's made by someone that I've > known and worked with, starting 25 years ago, so if you have a > favorite or get one for free, by all means, use it). You don't have > to do any target-machine hacking - you get a rig that matches your > target (28-pin cables, 24-pin cables, 32-pin cables, 256Kx8, 128Kx16, > whatever) - and the PromICE is somewhat configurable in that respect - > then compile the code and download it. It could be tricky if you need > the target machine to compile your code because of the tools needed, > but you could have the Cat make the code, transfer it to another > machine via serial port or network, then keep ROM images on the other > machine so you can try new code and revert back to working code if you > compile up a dud. > > I would hesitate to make recommendations on how to hack into an > existing design without schematics in front of me, but if all you are > trying to do is get writable ROMs, I'd seriously recommend a ROM > emulator that's externally loadable (built or bought, makes no > difference there). > > -ethan Hi Ethan I still need to figure how to get the 256kb of RAM into the Cat memory. I wasn't thinking of tying the DTACK low, just adding another O.C. drive on the wire when decoding my new address space. Most all of the circuits are inside of ASICs so there isn't much other than wires to and from the CPU. Just think of CPU, Black-Box then everything else. The Cat does use both the DTACK and the VPA lines. I think the VPA is used for the serial chip. The CPU doesn't hang when accessing invalid memory so maybe the ASIC is generating DTACKs, even for invalid memory. In that case, all I need is address decoders. I was thinking that the extra ROM decode might work but thinking about proper design, they'd have put R/W in the CE* signal. If so, I can't use it. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_BR_life_in_synch_062009 From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Jun 2 11:37:25 2009 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 12:37:25 -0400 Subject: Compaq SLT/286 Message-ID: <01C9E37E.E75101C0@MSE_D03> There are several articles on the 'Web describing how to replace the battery in a DS1287 and similar Dallas/Maxim chips; it's really not very difficult (even I have done a few), doesn't require getting a (possibly also about to die) replacement, and makes future replacement of the battery a snap. Also avoids problems with added height due to a socket. See: http://www.mcamafia.de/mcapage0/dsrework.htm for an example. It won't fix Y2K though ;-) See: http://www.maxim-ic.com/appnotes.cfm/an_pk/503 Worst case, if you do destroy it you can still do the socketed replacement thing. m ********************************************************************************* Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 17:00:04 -0400 From: Ethan Dicks Subject: Re: Compaq SLT/286 On Mon, Jun 1, 2009 at 3:49 PM, Arthur Evans wrote: > Please can you tell me where the bios battery is situated as I cannot find it, also its voltage. The BIOS battery in a Compaq SLT/286 is embedded inside the Dallas DS1287 clock module. The battery itself is +3V, but you replace the entire module, chip _and_ battery in one go. This is entirely unlike "modern" PCs where you have a Lithium coin cell (CR2032, typically) accessible and easy to replace. It's easy to find discussions of this particular machine. Here's one... Physically, the DS1287 is located in the middle of the board, under the battery tray, but you have to dismantle the entire machine to get to it. Also, it's soldered in place. To make it harder, there's not enough vertical clearance to install a socket. I installed a low-profile socket in mine, but had to nibble a hole in the battery tray to make room for the replacement Dallas clock. It is not a trivial procedure to replace the DS1287 in a Compaq SLT/286, certainly not compared to popping a coin cell out and in. -ethan From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Tue Jun 2 12:15:32 2009 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 13:15:32 -0400 Subject: Hubbell (was Re: IBM 029 Keypunch has arrived) In-Reply-To: <4A1BB4D8.23401.295144C3@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4A1BB4D8.23401.295144C3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4A255E34.3030609@sbcglobal.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 26 May 2009 at 8:31, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> That would be Hubbell, and I doubt they make "regular" 110V wall >> outlets. They make very large, very expensive power connectors that >> are used on industrial equipment and big computers. > > Hubbell is a conglomerate and Hubbell-Bryant handles the more mundane > fixtures (yes, ordinary duplex receptacles). But the connectors on > all of my twist-lock tools is indeed labeled "Hubbell", although I > gather that the twist-lock stuff is now Hubbell-Kellems. > > "Leviton" is another brand to search for. > > It pays to buy quality in receptacles if they're going to see heavy > use--much of the residential stuff is made of very brittle plastic > and breaking out the area near the grounding prong is quite common on > the cheap stuff. > > --Chuck Quality? Yep. All my recepacles, switches and such are all Hubbell Wiring Devices. I've got a _very_ reliable contact in Hubbell Wiring Customer Service. I can get answers if anyone needs it. Shoot me a message directly. Like where to get certain devices, specs, etc... -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ "From there to here, From here to there, Funny things are everywhere." --- Dr. Seuss From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Tue Jun 2 12:19:01 2009 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 13:19:01 -0400 Subject: receptacles (was IBM 029 Keypunch has arrived) In-Reply-To: <20090526115629.Y18924@shell.lmi.net> References: <775C9D48-B44C-4704-81AC-B180B1C9E5FA@microspot.co.uk> <20090526115629.Y18924@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4A255F05.6050709@sbcglobal.net> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 26 May 2009, Roger Holmes wrote: >> Thanks for the info, "receptacles" got hundred of items, though few >> seem to be on plates UK style and none in boxes like a UK 'metal clad' >> socket, but I can cut suitable holes in a few project boxes so not >> really a problem. There was a splash proof socket in a box but I don't >> really want a flip up cover on a permanent installation. > > If you are cutting your own faceplate(s), then the "new" style "Decora" > receptacles will be easier to mount - they have a single rectangular hole, > instead of two "double-D" holes. > Yeah, I'm replying late to this, oh well... The Decora faceplates are nice. The rectangle is a standard GFCI size, so the same plate can be used for switches or recpeticles. Just don't tighten the mounting screws too much. Easy to snap the thin plastic. Been there, done that. Twice. But they still stay okay. -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ "From there to here, From here to there, Funny things are everywhere." --- Dr. Seuss From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 2 12:36:24 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 10:36:24 -0700 Subject: receptacles (was IBM 029 Keypunch has arrived) In-Reply-To: <4A255F05.6050709@sbcglobal.net> References: , <20090526115629.Y18924@shell.lmi.net>, <4A255F05.6050709@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <4A2500A8.24129.5819CB7@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Jun 2009 at 13:19, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > Yeah, I'm replying late to this, oh well... > The Decora faceplates are nice. The rectangle is a standard GFCI size, > so the same plate can be used for switches or recpeticles. Just don't > tighten the mounting screws too much. Easy to snap the thin plastic. > Been there, done that. Twice. But they still stay okay. If it was just a bunch of outlets that I needed, I'd be tempted to use one of the "four in one" style outlets. No plate to worry about-- just provide a box. --Chuck From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jun 2 12:38:53 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 17:38:53 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Fwd: Mystery object... Message-ID: <166556.46330.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Technically it was lost over the Atlantic Ocean and reports of some sort of computer failure 30 minutes before they vanished. It's a shame they were using Amiga's, they'd have made it to France 1 hour earlier than expected! Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Mon, 1/6/09, Alexandre Souza wrote: From: Alexandre Souza Subject: Re: Fwd: Mystery object... To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Date: Monday, 1 June, 2009, 9:56 PM > Now, you feel fortunate to be crammed into a sardine can on a late > flight and not handcuffed and strip-searched at the terminal. ???And pray not to die...Did you know about the air france plane who got lost in Brazil today? :o( From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jun 2 12:49:13 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 17:49:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Fwd: Mystery object... Message-ID: <782658.92388.qm@web23408.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Sorry, that was supposed to say "It's a shame they *weren't* using Amiga's", lol. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Tue, 2/6/09, Andrew Burton wrote: From: Andrew Burton Subject: Re: Fwd: Mystery object... To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Tuesday, 2 June, 2009, 6:38 PM Technically it was lost over the Atlantic Ocean and reports of some sort of computer failure 30 minutes before they vanished. It's a shame they were using Amiga's, they'd have made it to France 1 hour earlier than expected! Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Mon, 1/6/09, Alexandre Souza wrote: From: Alexandre Souza Subject: Re: Fwd: Mystery object... To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Date: Monday, 1 June, 2009, 9:56 PM > Now, you feel fortunate to be crammed into a sardine can on a late > flight and not handcuffed and strip-searched at the terminal. And pray not to die...Did you know about the air france plane who got lost in Brazil today? :o( From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 2 12:54:21 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 18:54:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo In-Reply-To: <1243887860.1093.45.camel@elric> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Jun 1, 9 09:24:20 pm Message-ID: > Okay, let's try again. I have a circa-70s 300-baud modem, that will > generate incorrect tones when it's plugged into a USB-to-serial Waht's the make and model of the modem? > converter, but not when it's plugged into a real serial port. Have you measured the voltage on the RS232 TxD pin in both cases? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 2 13:06:07 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 19:06:07 +0100 (BST) Subject: Further 11/40 unibus questions... In-Reply-To: <4A24E849.4050203@softjar.se> from "Johnny Billquist" at Jun 2, 9 10:52:25 am Message-ID: > > Paul Anderson wrote: > > > I always used a M930 in the 11/40 and older machines, and the M9300 in the > > 11/34 and newer machines. I have no way to check on the differences > > now. now. Also, there may be a trick using MOS in an 11/40. > > I can't remember that there should be any functional difference between > a M930 and a M9300. The later is just an improved design. > > As for the original posters problems. When you get a stuck machine when > the terminator is in, but a somewhat more functional machine when the > bus terminator is out, you have a problem on the bus. Most likely a bus I thought that was only true if you were using an M9302 termintor. That board will assert SACK if it gets a grant (that is, if a grant goes all the way along the Unibus and isn't 'taken' by some device). The older terminators (M930, and I think M9300, don't. THey're just resistors to terminate the bus. > grant or NPR grant. A third possibility is a problem in the CPU with the > logic related to these signals. I think it's time to stop guessing -- I think we've tried all the obvious things -- and start logical faultfinding. What test gear does the OP have? What _I_ would do is first check all the power voltages, with the boards in (it's too late to care about a rogue PSU damaging boards :-)). A low +5V line, or a missing supply to the terminator, will casue all sorts of problems. Then I'd look at all the Unibus signals both with the terminator out (they will still be terminated by the resistors at at the CPU end -- IIRC on an 11/40 these are on the Unibus jumper between the CPU and first expansion backplane) and with it fitted. I would guess something is changing state, let's find out what. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 2 14:16:55 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 20:16:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP 700/32 keyboard signals In-Reply-To: <4A256B27.8347.2428D813@sieler.allegro.com> from "Stan Sieler" at Jun 2, 9 11:10:47 am Message-ID: > > Hi, > > An acquaintance in (maybe) India, has dozens of HP 700/32 > keyboards he'd like to continue using ... but by attaching them to This is not a machine I have ever worked on, but I noticed to CCed the message to me personally, so I guess you think I might have some clues... > modern equipment. He's done some initial work trying to figure > out the signals/protocol, but hasn't solved it yet. > > I pointed him to CC here, but he seems reluctant to join. > > He writes: > > We have about 75 HP 700/32 terminal keyboards which we want use as input > > devices for our quality control points. I have already constructed a PIC > > board to do the job but I just can not read the keyboard. What I see from > > the osciloscope is, the keyboard requires 5V power, a 77 kHz 1:3 duty rate > > clock, and outputs two pulses on two different lines, time between which is > > dependent on the key pressed. For example, for the left-shift key, there is > > always 22 clock cycles between these two pulses. A few obvious questions : Has he opnened up the keyboard, if so, what's inside (microcontroller, HP custom chip, SSI/MSI chips)? 2) How did he make that above measurents ? If it was by connecting a 'scope or logic analyser onto the cable between the terminal and the keyboard, how does he know which direction the signals are in. The point being there is a fairly well-known HP keyboard interface, used with modifications on several machines, which has the following 5 signals : Power (may be +5V or +12V) Ground Clock (but a lot slower than 77kHz normally) (from host to keyboard) Reset (from host to keyboard) Data (from keyboard to host). The basic protocol is that pulsing 'reset' clears an internal counter in the keyboard and selects the zeroth 'key'. Each pulse on 'clock' moves on to the next key in the sequest. And the data line indicates whether the currently-selected key is pressed or not. THis sounds remarkably like the signals he's observing (hence the delay between the 2 pulses being depecndant on which key is pressed). But normally only one signal is 'from' the keyboard. I do know that HP used a similar interface for the touchscreen unit in the HP150 (original version), but in that case the 'reset' (or 'sync') signal was output from the peripheral (touchscreen logic) and an input to the host. I have never come across this being used for a keyboard, but it's clearly possible. Other things. What happens if you hold down several keys at the same time (multiple pulses on the 'data' line)? Is the 'reset' / 'sync' pulse always present, even if no keys are pressed? What lines have signals on them if the terminal is powered up with no keyboard connected ? (this _might_ indicate the direction of the signals). > If anyone is interested in corresponding with him, please email me offline > and I'll try to put you in contact with him. Feel free to forward the above, but I am not sure I have anything else I could say. -tony From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Tue Jun 2 14:27:08 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 12:27:08 -0700 Subject: Further 11/40 unibus questions... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A257D0C.7010901@mail.msu.edu> Tony Duell wrote: >> Paul Anderson wrote: >> >> >>> I always used a M930 in the 11/40 and older machines, and the M9300 in the >>> 11/34 and newer machines. I have no way to check on the differences >>> now. now. Also, there may be a trick using MOS in an 11/40. >>> >> I can't remember that there should be any functional difference between >> a M930 and a M9300. The later is just an improved design. >> >> As for the original posters problems. When you get a stuck machine when >> the terminator is in, but a somewhat more functional machine when the >> bus terminator is out, you have a problem on the bus. Most likely a bus >> > > I thought that was only true if you were using an M9302 termintor. That > board will assert SACK if it gets a grant (that is, if a grant goes all > the way along the Unibus and isn't 'taken' by some device). The older > terminators (M930, and I think M9300, don't. THey're just resistors to > terminate the bus. > > >> grant or NPR grant. A third possibility is a problem in the CPU with the >> logic related to these signals. >> > > I think it's time to stop guessing -- I think we've tried all the obvious > things -- and start logical faultfinding. What test gear does the OP > have? > I have a nice Tektronix 1241 logic analyzer and a DMM (and a really flaky old Tek O-scope). I said in my original mail on this thread that I just wanted to be sure my Unibus config _looked_ sane before I started digging. (No sense spending hours debugging if all it is is a misplaced board...) > What _I_ would do is first check all the power voltages, with the boards > in (it's too late to care about a rogue PSU damaging boards :-)). A low > +5V line, or a missing supply to the terminator, will casue all sorts of > problems. > The voltages seem to be fine with the boards installed (5.2V for the +5, -5.3V for -5). I fixed the ACLO/DCLO problems I was having awhile back (turned out to be a bad contact on one of the many molex connectors. That was nice, since I didn't want to pull the supply out again :)). > Then I'd look at all the Unibus signals both with the terminator out > (they will still be terminated by the resistors at at the CPU end -- IIRC > on an 11/40 these are on the Unibus jumper between the CPU and first > expansion backplane) and with it fitted. I would guess something is > changing state, let's find out what. > I will start looking at this tonight (assuming I have the time tonight :)). Thanks. Josh > -tony > > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jun 2 14:48:15 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 12:48:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fwd: Mystery object... In-Reply-To: <166556.46330.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <166556.46330.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20090602124712.U68389@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 2 Jun 2009, Andrew Burton wrote: > Technically it was lost over the Atlantic Ocean and reports of some sort > of computer failure 30 minutes before they vanished. Windows BSOD?? > It's a shame they were using Amiga's, they'd have made it to France 1 > hour earlier than expected! "Guru meditation number"? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jun 2 14:59:43 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 13:59:43 -0600 Subject: Fwd: Mystery object... In-Reply-To: <20090602124712.U68389@shell.lmi.net> References: <166556.46330.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20090602124712.U68389@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4A2584AF.7010702@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 2 Jun 2009, Andrew Burton wrote: >> Technically it was lost over the Atlantic Ocean and reports of some sort >> of computer failure 30 minutes before they vanished. > > Windows BSOD?? > >> It's a shame they were using Amiga's, they'd have made it to France 1 >> hour earlier than expected! > > "Guru meditation number"? Did the planes lost in the Bermuda triangle have computers at all... From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Tue Jun 2 15:39:00 2009 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 16:39:00 -0400 Subject: receptacles (was IBM 029 Keypunch has arrived) In-Reply-To: <4A2500A8.24129.5819CB7@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <20090526115629.Y18924@shell.lmi.net>, <4A255F05.6050709@sbcglobal.net> <4A2500A8.24129.5819CB7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4A258DE4.9090607@sbcglobal.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 2 Jun 2009 at 13:19, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > >> Yeah, I'm replying late to this, oh well... >> The Decora faceplates are nice. The rectangle is a standard GFCI size, >> so the same plate can be used for switches or recpeticles. Just don't >> tighten the mounting screws too much. Easy to snap the thin plastic. >> Been there, done that. Twice. But they still stay okay. > > If it was just a bunch of outlets that I needed, I'd be tempted to > use one of the "four in one" style outlets. No plate to worry about-- > just provide a box. > Hrm? Picture anywhere? -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ "From there to here, From here to there, Funny things are everywhere." --- Dr. Seuss From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 2 16:19:00 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 14:19:00 -0700 Subject: receptacles (was IBM 029 Keypunch has arrived) In-Reply-To: <4A258DE4.9090607@sbcglobal.net> References: , <4A2500A8.24129.5819CB7@cclist.sydex.com>, <4A258DE4.9090607@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <4A2534D4.27037.64D5D1E@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Jun 2009 at 16:39, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > Hrm? Picture anywhere? How about a product spec sheet? http://assets.twacomm.com/assets/pdf/18756.pdf --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jun 2 17:35:29 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 15:35:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fwd: Mystery object... In-Reply-To: <4A2584AF.7010702@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <166556.46330.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <20090602124712.U68389@shell.lmi.net> <4A2584AF.7010702@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20090602153428.N80929@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 2 Jun 2009, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > Did the planes lost in the Bermuda triangle have computers at all... I don't think that the Air France missing plane was scheduled to fly over the Bermuda Triangle. Maybe THAT's the problem. From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue Jun 2 17:32:16 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 19:32:16 -0300 Subject: plain perfboard References: <770F762E-A434-4D13-A23D-8BE1761E6B24@neurotica.com> <200906011345.44722.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <147801c9e3d3$86107580$0dce19bb@desktaba> > Jameco had a good selection of different perf board shapes, >sizes and materials. Not cheap but a good selection. They >ship really fast. I live in the bay area and usually get my >order the next day if ordered before noon the day before. >If you need specialty board, such as for a older PC or >S-100 try Anchor Electronics. They have these things >as well. These boards are cheap enough in Brazil, but I'm planning to do some "speciality types" when I put my cnc machine working... From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Tue Jun 2 19:04:33 2009 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 17:04:33 -0700 Subject: Vintage-Computer In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <19AAF60497E041FD992C1016B04C4369@NFORCE4> Dan Gahlinger Wrote: > Wow, Erik replied to someone ;) > I bought something off there a while back, > after the purchase was shipped, didn't get my feedback, > and no response to emails. > however, the purchase, transaction and shipping was excellent and lots of > communication during the transaction, so... Hey now! I'm not _that_ bad with emails! I didn't see any I didn't reply to. . . I hope. Feedback, well, that's a whole 'nother ball o yarn. . . I admit that I'm WAY behind on feedback. :( I did just give you yours, though (squeaky wheel and such) and I'll get to the rest as other projects get done. . . Sorry. ----- Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum - The Vintage Computer Forums marketplace.vintage-computer.com - The Vintage Computer and Gaming Marketplace From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Jun 2 20:52:19 2009 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 20:52:19 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 70, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <63620.76.2.120.32.1243957166.squirrel@mail.neurotica.com> References: <63620.76.2.120.32.1243957166.squirrel@mail.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20090602204549.03f8b810@mail.threedee.com> At 10:39 AM 6/2/2009, Dave McGuire wrote: > He's not talking about powering the device, he's talking about driving >the signal lines. Their input impedance isn't infinite, you know! I think there has been other threads here regardng the hit-or-miss nature of these USB-to-serial adapters. I know when I needed one to sync a Palm, I couldn't find one that did it right. I think I hit my head against three $30 adapters to no avail, but this was four-five years ago. I'm not smart enough to talk about reactance, but I can tell you they're not quite the same. It would stand to reason that a 30-year-old modem might've been developed to talk to its contemporaries. - John From lynchaj at yahoo.com Tue Jun 2 21:09:38 2009 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 22:09:38 -0400 Subject: wire wrap machine pins Message-ID: <645CE5E3D8F14DB08EBB7BAD70B87E7E@andrewdesktop> ---------------------------------------- > From: lynchaj at yahoo.com > > Hi! Does anyone know where to get those rows of individual machine pins for > wire wrapping? [snip] > > Andrew Lynch > Hi It seems I just saw those in the Jameco catalog. Dwight -----REPLY----- Thanks Dwight and Chuck! I found what I was looking for (wire wrap SIP sockets) in the Jameco catalog for a fairly reasonable price. They also have terminal pins but not the machine pin variety. Digikey has those, as Chuck pointed out, but the price seems unreasonable. $35 for a small bag of socket pin terminals? Wow! Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From josefcub at gmail.com Tue Jun 2 21:29:48 2009 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 21:29:48 -0500 Subject: wire wrap machine pins In-Reply-To: <645CE5E3D8F14DB08EBB7BAD70B87E7E@andrewdesktop> References: <645CE5E3D8F14DB08EBB7BAD70B87E7E@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <9e2403920906021929s6cca6e28o9fdae40acb044f9e@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 9:09 PM, Andrew Lynch wrote: >> Hi! Does anyone know where to get those rows of individual machine pins > for >> wire wrapping? I lucked out and found a box of 100 at MC Howard in Austin. I'm still of the impression that, if I really need something (as I did those pins and a few other bits), it'll magically appear at MC Howard when I visit. Josef -- "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Jun 2 21:49:55 2009 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 22:49:55 -0400 Subject: Archiving RX50s with PUTR In-Reply-To: <1242551102.7676.103.camel@spasmo> References: <1242500188.7676.96.camel@spasmo> <200905161738.11839.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <1242551102.7676.103.camel@spasmo> Message-ID: <4A25E4D3.4060706@compsys.to> I rarely top post, but this seems like a reasonable situation. I finally had a few minutes to look at a few of the 40 * RX50 disk images under RT-11. Most of the time was to look at the CACHE.DSK image which holds a set of files that I have never seen before. Based on the contents, it may take some time to sort out exactly what is needed, but this set certainly looks extremely promising. It is highly probable that at least a few of the other RX50 images hold other gems as well. If you have any other RX50 floppy media which you are going to make available, please let us know. I have sort of placed RT-11 into a lower priority than a few years ago, but something like this may rekindle my interest. Thank you very much and keep up the great effort. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine >Tobias Russell wrote: >Thanks for the advice. I had already started by the time I ready your >reply so I have images for now, although it would be easy to go the >extra step by mounting my images and extracting the individual files. I >might have a hunt to see if there are any linux/unix utilities out there >so I can automate exracting the individual files from RT-11 images. > >If anyone is interested, the fruits of my labours can be seen here: > >http://www.pdp11.co.uk/2009/05/17/rt-11-rx50-disk-images/ > >Quite a few of the files probably already exist in other archives but >some of the stuff is probably new. I've not had a chance yet to look >through the disks in detail but will annotate up the contents when I get >a chance. > >I've just been given a set of microRSX 1.0 distribution RX50s so I will >put those up next. > >Thanks, >Toby > > > >On Sat, 2009-05-16 at 17:38 -0700, Lyle Bickley wrote: > > >>Toby, >> >>On Saturday 16 May 2009, Tobias Russell wrote: >> >> >>>I have a large box of RX50 disks that I would like to archive onto >>>modern media to ensure they are preserved. I've built up a machine with >>>a 5.25" floppy drive and install DOS and PUTR. >>> >>>Is the best method to archive them to: >>> >>>MOUNT B: /FOREIGN /RX50 >>> >>>followed by: >>> >>>COPY/DEV/FILE B: [filename] >>> >>>for each of the disks I insert? >>> >>>I was pondering whether I should use the /BINARY flag on the copy, but >>>I've not seen this mentioned on other webpages I have read. >>> >>> >>Since PUTR "understands" multiple filetypes, I have found it is much better to >>save the contents of each floppy (RX50) to a separate directory - but NOT as an >>image file, but rather as individual files. That way you can later use PUTR to >>create logical media of any form - say RL02, RX01, etc. from the captured >>files. >> >>Assuming drive "B:" is your 5.25" drive, and the OS is RT11 you would do the >>following: >> >>MOUNT B: /RT11 /RX50 >>then >>COPY B:*.* . >>and you will have captured the individual files that were on the RX50. >> >>When you reverse the process to recreate a diskette (RX50, RX23, RX01, etc.) be >>sure to use a SET B: type; i.e., SET B: RX23 >>then >>FORMAT B: /RT11 /RX23 (or whatever) >>then >>COPY *.* B: >> >>NOTE: Be absolutely sure to SET COPY BINARY before you do anything. For some >>unknown reason, the PUTR default is ASCII. (I have a SET COPY BINARY in PUTR's >>initialization file - to be sure I never forget to do it ;-) >> From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jun 2 21:53:27 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 20:53:27 -0600 Subject: USB/serial adapters (was: cctalk Digest, Vol 70, Issue 3) In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 02 Jun 2009 20:52:19 -0500. <6.2.3.4.2.20090602204549.03f8b810@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: In article <6.2.3.4.2.20090602204549.03f8b810 at mail.threedee.com>, John Foust writes: > I think there has been other threads here regardng the hit-or-miss > nature of these USB-to-serial adapters. I know when I needed one > to sync a Palm, I couldn't find one that did it right. I think > I hit my head against three $30 adapters to no avail, but this > was four-five years ago. I've used them to talk to terminals and had no problems. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Jun 2 21:58:53 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 22:58:53 -0400 Subject: For pickup: VAX-11/750 and RK07 Message-ID: <200906022258.53816.pat@computer-refuge.org> I've got a VAX-11/750 and DEC RK07 that I picked up from a friend a few months ago, which I need to divest myself of. Both have some issues; I'm not sure what the issue is with the RK07 (though I do have the service manual for the drive), and the 11/750 has some sort of issue with its console. I haven't touched either one, this is what the previous owner has told me. They're available free for pickup, or I can deliver them within about an hour's drive of here for some gas money. The machines are in West Lafayette, IN 47906, USA. If they aren't gone by Sunday, June 14th, they'll go on ebay. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Jun 2 22:16:53 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 23:16:53 -0400 Subject: For pickup: VAX-11/750 and RK07 In-Reply-To: <200906022258.53816.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200906022258.53816.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200906022316.53813.pat@computer-refuge.org> And, they've been claimed. That was fast. Pat On Tuesday 02 June 2009, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > I've got a VAX-11/750 and DEC RK07 that I picked up from a friend a > few months ago, which I need to divest myself of. > > Both have some issues; I'm not sure what the issue is with the RK07 > (though I do have the service manual for the drive), and the 11/750 > has some sort of issue with its console. I haven't touched either > one, this is what the previous owner has told me. > > They're available free for pickup, or I can deliver them within about > an hour's drive of here for some gas money. > > The machines are in West Lafayette, IN 47906, USA. > > If they aren't gone by Sunday, June 14th, they'll go on ebay. > > Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ragooman at comcast.net Tue Jun 2 22:32:12 2009 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 23:32:12 -0400 Subject: vintage hardware still alive and kickin' -- another successful launch from vandenberg afb Message-ID: <4A25EEBC.4060200@comcast.net> Another successful launch from Vandenberg AFB. Vintage hardware is still alive and kickin' ! My buddy there tells me the contract for the TIPS facility has been renewed at USAF Western Missile & Space center With many more launches to come. http://www.defense-aerospace.com/article-view/release/105054/delta-ii-launches-missile-defense-satellite.html "TIPS consists of two systems of the CDC Cyber 840 computers, 21 systems of the SEL 32/55 and 32/75A computers, and various peripheral and supporting equipment on 2 acres of floor space." http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/computers_mini_gallery_tips.html I wonder what other vintage hardware is still in operation -- museum collections don't count :) =Dan -- [ = http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jun 2 22:53:50 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 23:53:50 -0400 Subject: vintage hardware still alive and kickin' -- another successful launch from vandenberg afb In-Reply-To: <4A25EEBC.4060200@comcast.net> References: <4A25EEBC.4060200@comcast.net> Message-ID: > "TIPS consists of two systems of the CDC Cyber 840 computers, 21 systems of > the SEL 32/55 and 32/75A computers, ?and ?various peripheral and supporting > equipment on 2 acres of floor space." > http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/computers_mini_gallery_tips.html > > I wonder what other vintage hardware is still in operation -- museum > collections don't count :) The missile tracking ship OBSERVATION ISLAND also probably still has a similar Cyber running, or perhaps one slightly older. That ship is still in service, but is slated to be stricken next year (we shall see...). It would be nice to get these old systems pulled out of their current homes safely, but the government has a habit of junking the stuff. The last missile trackers I was on (VANGUARD and RANGE SENTINEL) both had their computer rooms completely stripped of everything above the raised floor, with the exception of a lonely Printronics printer. Interestingly, VANGUARD still had the original Univac shipping crates in one of the lower compartments. -- Will From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Jun 2 23:06:20 2009 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 23:06:20 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 70, Issue 3 References: <4A24E694.8010800@softjar.se> Message-ID: <00b801c9e400$a6ea5dc0$c600a8c0@JWEST> It was written... > Huh? The RS-232-port isn't supposed to deliver any power at all. Not quite true, but a case can be made.... As per the spec, pins 9 and 10 are reserved specifically to provide test voltages. The current available is minimal and designed mainly for testing purposes with breakout boxes, etc. But it is there (from those that chose to implement it - which back in the day was most folks). Not only that, but it was not uncommon - in fact very common - to find lots of devices that got their power from DTR, etc. These devices had a lot of trouble with RS423, where the voltage was much less than RS232. I don't recall the exact numbers but RS232 was something about 12V swings and RS423 was about 3.5V swings. Other than that, the two were pretty much identical. People often connected RS423 to 232 devices with no problem at all. But those devices that expected power from DTR or pins 9 or 10 (on a DB25) had a bit of difficulty when plugged into a rs423 port. > But I'd be surprised if a circa-70s modem was ever designed to use the > power from the RS-232 port to drive the modem itself. I'd expect it to > have an external power supply. I can't imagine a 70's era modem getting power from the interface. Well, not a modem designed to interface to analog POTS lines. A line driver or short haul modem? Heck yeah, I've seen scads of them that got their power from the RS232 interface. Jay West From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 2 23:37:01 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 21:37:01 -0700 Subject: wire wrap machine pins In-Reply-To: <645CE5E3D8F14DB08EBB7BAD70B87E7E@andrewdesktop> References: <645CE5E3D8F14DB08EBB7BAD70B87E7E@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <4A259B7D.7280.7DE72DA@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Jun 2009 at 22:09, Andrew Lynch wrote: > Thanks Dwight and Chuck! I found what I was looking for (wire wrap > SIP sockets) in the Jameco catalog for a fairly reasonable price. > They also have terminal pins but not the machine pin variety. Digikey > has those, as Chuck pointed out, but the price seems unreasonable. > $35 for a small bag of socket pin terminals? Wow! Sometimes, it's very cost effective to pick up a used wire-wrap prototyping board and simply punch the unused pins out. Also, be on the lookout for surplus wire-wrap DIP sockets. It's easy enough to cut the row of pins off to make your own SIP socket. --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Jun 3 00:02:39 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 22:02:39 -0700 Subject: wire wrap machine pins In-Reply-To: <645CE5E3D8F14DB08EBB7BAD70B87E7E@andrewdesktop> References: <645CE5E3D8F14DB08EBB7BAD70B87E7E@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <4A2603EF.1040309@brouhaha.com> Andrew Lynch wrote: > They also > have terminal pins but not the machine pin variety. Digikey has those, as > Chuck pointed out, but the price seems unreasonable. $35 for a small bag of > socket pin terminals? Wow! When I've needed bunches of those to make a custom PGA socket, I've just extracted them from machine pin DIP sockets. A short piece of copper tubing and a hammer work wonders. From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jun 3 00:23:38 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 23:23:38 -0600 Subject: vintage hardware still alive and kickin' -- another successful launch from vandenberg afb In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 02 Jun 2009 23:32:12 -0400. <4A25EEBC.4060200@comcast.net> Message-ID: In article <4A25EEBC.4060200 at comcast.net>, Dan Roganti writes: > "TIPS consists of two systems of the CDC Cyber 840 computers, 21 systems > of the SEL 32/55 and 32/75A computers, and various peripheral and > supporting equipment on 2 acres of floor space." > http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/computers_mini_gallery_tips.html The terminals in this photo look like yummy CDC/PLATO terminals. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Jun 3 00:27:41 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 22:27:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: vintage hardware still alive and kickin' -- another successful launch from vandenberg afb In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 2 Jun 2009, Richard wrote: > In article <4A25EEBC.4060200 at comcast.net>, > Dan Roganti writes: > >> "TIPS consists of two systems of the CDC Cyber 840 computers, 21 systems >> of the SEL 32/55 and 32/75A computers, and various peripheral and >> supporting equipment on 2 acres of floor space." >> http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/computers_mini_gallery_tips.html > > The terminals in this photo look like yummy CDC/PLATO terminals. > What are those things that look like photocopiers at middle-right-bottom? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From bqt at softjar.se Tue Jun 2 12:29:22 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 19:29:22 +0200 Subject: RS-232 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A256172.9080906@softjar.se> "Dave McGuire" wrote: > On Tue, June 2, 2009 4:45 am, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>> >> USB only guarantees to supply 100 milliamps. Up to 500 mA can be >>> >> negotiated with the controller, depending. Might your older device >>> >> depend on more amps than the USB adapter can supply? >> > >> > Huh? The RS-232-port isn't supposed to deliver any power at all. Some >> > devices admittedly abused the RS-232 by using something like DTR to >> > actually supply the power needed to drive the thing, but that is abuse. >> > >> > But I'd be surprised if a circa-70s modem was ever designed to use the >> > power from the RS-232 port to drive the modem itself. I'd expect it to >> > have an external power supply. > > He's not talking about powering the device, he's talking about driving > the signal lines. Their input impedance isn't infinite, you know! No, but close enough to not make much difference. If the modem would draw anywhere near 100mA over RS-232 just to get the levels, something is seriously wrong. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From sieler at allegro.com Tue Jun 2 13:10:47 2009 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 11:10:47 -0700 Subject: HP 700/32 keyboard signals Message-ID: <4A256B27.8347.2428D813@sieler.allegro.com> Hi, An acquaintance in (maybe) India, has dozens of HP 700/32 keyboards he'd like to continue using ... but by attaching them to modern equipment. He's done some initial work trying to figure out the signals/protocol, but hasn't solved it yet. I pointed him to CC here, but he seems reluctant to join. He writes: > We have about 75 HP 700/32 terminal keyboards which we want use as input > devices for our quality control points. I have already constructed a PIC > board to do the job but I just can not read the keyboard. What I see from > the osciloscope is, the keyboard requires 5V power, a 77 kHz 1:3 duty rate > clock, and outputs two pulses on two different lines, time between which is > dependent on the key pressed. For example, for the left-shift key, there is > always 22 clock cycles between these two pulses. If anyone is interested in corresponding with him, please email me offline and I'll try to put you in contact with him. thanks, Stan -- Stan Sieler sieler at allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html From sieler at allegro.com Tue Jun 2 13:28:16 2009 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2009 11:28:16 -0700 Subject: HP 3000 micro gx booting MPE/V, Help >>>> In-Reply-To: <040220090516.644.49D44A41000AABD00000028422230703729B0A02D29B9B0@MHS> References: <040220090516.644.49D44A41000AABD00000028422230703729B0A02D29B9B0@MHS> Message-ID: <4A256F40.7175.2438DA47@sieler.allegro.com> Re: > I have non working 3000/37s with possibly good drives and a 3000 micro GX > that works but has a bad drive. I have tried to boot the micro GX from the > 3000-37 drives and get this far. ... > Following Volumes not found > MH7957U1 ... > Seems to freeze after that. It does this on 2 different drives. > Is this even possible to do ??? I don't recall successfully booting off a different model's boot drive on a Classic 3000, but I'm not sure. > Does anyone have a OS tape for one of these ??? and which manuals > cover the boot menu and/or startup. ... > Stan Sieler, are you still around. Seems like every search I do comes up with > your name and advice. Here sporadically :) I'm emailing you offline. Stan -- Stan Sieler sieler at allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html From julianskidmore at yahoo.com Tue Jun 2 16:15:57 2009 From: julianskidmore at yahoo.com (Julian Skidmore) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 14:15:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Inappropriate remarks (Was Fwd: Mystery object... ) Message-ID: <427125.14223.qm@web37101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Dear Cctech Members, > On Tue, 2 Jun 2009, Andrew Burton wrote: > > Technically it was lost over the Atlantic Ocean and reports > > of some sort > > of computer failure 30 minutes before they vanished. > Windows BSOD?? > > It's a shame they were using Amiga's, they'd have made it to France 1 > > hour earlier than expected! > "Guru meditation number"? These posts are the most insensitive & complete off-topic remarks I have ever seen on CCTech. The authors should be ashamed of themselves. For all you or I know, CCTech members could have had friends or loved ones on the aircraft, but in any case the passengers and staff who (as is almost certain) lost their lives in such a tragic and terrifying manner should be treated with far more respect than has been shown here. From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Jun 2 18:44:55 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 19:44:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Question re: 8" drive form-factor Message-ID: Here's a strange one: I recently acquired two Shugart 851 drives from another cctech-er. They were in nice shape and operate fine. The weird part is their form-factor. I have 8 or 10 other 8" drives in my collection, both half-height and full-height, including two other 851 Shugarts. All of these are 8.5" wide, with faceplate and frame being exactly the same size. These two "new" Shugart units are _9.5"_ wide at the faceplate and require a clearance of about 9-1/8" for the frame. Can anyone explain this odd sizing? Were they perhaps manufactured against an earlier standard? Color me puzzled... Steve -- From starbase89 at gmail.com Wed Jun 3 01:05:50 2009 From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 02:05:50 -0400 Subject: Inappropriate remarks (Was Fwd: Mystery object... ) In-Reply-To: <427125.14223.qm@web37101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <427125.14223.qm@web37101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2b1f1f550906022305x2107b969hc0652df4dfa94b47@mail.gmail.com> If you know someone who was lost, thats understandable, but the remarks weren't really that bad. If someone on CC lost someone to it, let them complain if they wish. There's no reason for you to be offended if you didn't loose someone. 220 people out of the 7 billion on the planet is a raindrop in the ocean. On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 5:15 PM, Julian Skidmore wrote: > > Dear Cctech Members, > > > On Tue, 2 Jun 2009, Andrew Burton wrote: > > > Technically it was lost over the Atlantic Ocean and reports > > > of some sort > > > of computer failure 30 minutes before they vanished. > > Windows BSOD?? > > > It's a shame they were using Amiga's, they'd have made it to France 1 > > > hour earlier than expected! > > > "Guru meditation number"? > > These posts are the most insensitive & complete off-topic remarks I have > ever seen on CCTech. The authors should be ashamed of themselves. > > For all you or I know, CCTech members could have had friends or loved > ones on the aircraft, but in any case the passengers and staff who > (as is almost certain) lost their lives in such a tragic and terrifying > manner should be treated with far more respect than has been shown here. > > > > > > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jun 3 01:31:58 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 02:31:58 -0400 Subject: Inappropriate remarks (Was Fwd: Mystery object... ) In-Reply-To: <427125.14223.qm@web37101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <427125.14223.qm@web37101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > These posts are the most insensitive & complete off-topic remarks I have > ever seen on CCTech. The authors should be ashamed of themselves. I concur. Remember that these "jokes" are being archived and are public. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jun 3 01:38:52 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 02:38:52 -0400 Subject: Inappropriate remarks (Was Fwd: Mystery object... ) In-Reply-To: <2b1f1f550906022305x2107b969hc0652df4dfa94b47@mail.gmail.com> References: <427125.14223.qm@web37101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <2b1f1f550906022305x2107b969hc0652df4dfa94b47@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > If you know someone who was lost, thats understandable, but the remarks > weren't really that bad. If someone on CC lost someone to it, let them > complain if they wish. There's no reason for you to be offended if you > didn't loose someone. 220 people out of the 7 billion on the planet is a > raindrop in the ocean. I think you just lowered the bar. I would have hoped you had more sense. What if the person is in grief, stricken by a loss? Do you think they are going to be reading this list? What will it be like when they catch up reading their messages? Will it comfort them when they find their loss is called insignificant? Folks, lets kill this right now. -- Will From starbase89 at gmail.com Wed Jun 3 02:24:44 2009 From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 03:24:44 -0400 Subject: Inappropriate remarks (Was Fwd: Mystery object... ) In-Reply-To: References: <427125.14223.qm@web37101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <2b1f1f550906022305x2107b969hc0652df4dfa94b47@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2b1f1f550906030024p68e7dc54t19afb6836d9ab7d5@mail.gmail.com> I hate when people cater to the minority, in this case, the families of 220 people, out of the 6.8 billion on the planet. Just for the sake of argument, lets say that each of those people had 20 people they were associated with that could possibly be on this list. That comes out to 4400 people who "might" be both on this list, and knew someone on the plane, out of a grand total of 6.8 billion people on the planet. When the twin towers fell, the tsunami hit, and Katrina pummeled LA, there is then cause for dignity and tact. Many thousands of people were affected by those events. On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 2:38 AM, William Donzelli wrote: > I think you just lowered the bar. I would have hoped you had more > sense. What if the person is in grief, stricken by a loss? Do you > think they are going to be reading this list? What will it be like > when they catch up reading their messages? Will it comfort them when > they find their loss is called insignificant? > > Folks, lets kill this right now. > > -- > Will > From mike at brickfieldspark.org Wed Jun 3 02:43:37 2009 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 08:43:37 +0100 Subject: [personal] Re: vintage hardware still alive and kickin' -- another successfullaunch from vandenberg afb References: Message-ID: <003a01c9e41f$01ece030$961ca8c0@mss.local> They look like chart recorders ? Mike Web - www.soemtron.org PDP-7 - www.soemtron.org/pdp7.html Email - mike at soemtron.org Looking for a PDP-7 (some hope!) and an ASR33 ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Griffith" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 6:27 AM Subject: [personal] Re: vintage hardware still alive and kickin' -- another successfullaunch from vandenberg afb > On Tue, 2 Jun 2009, Richard wrote: > >> In article <4A25EEBC.4060200 at comcast.net>, >> Dan Roganti writes: >> >>> "TIPS consists of two systems of the CDC Cyber 840 computers, 21 systems >>> of the SEL 32/55 and 32/75A computers, and various peripheral and >>> supporting equipment on 2 acres of floor space." >>> http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/computers_mini_gallery_tips.html >> >> The terminals in this photo look like yummy CDC/PLATO terminals. >> > > What are those things that look like photocopiers at middle-right-bottom? > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > > > From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Wed Jun 3 03:17:45 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2009 01:17:45 -0700 Subject: Inappropriate remarks (Was Fwd: Mystery object... ) In-Reply-To: <2b1f1f550906030024p68e7dc54t19afb6836d9ab7d5@mail.gmail.com> References: <427125.14223.qm@web37101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <2b1f1f550906022305x2107b969hc0652df4dfa94b47@mail.gmail.com> <2b1f1f550906030024p68e7dc54t19afb6836d9ab7d5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A2631A9.4000207@mail.msu.edu> Yes, please, let's not cater to minorities in our posts to this list. In fact, in the spirit of not catering to minorities, I will offer instead a "fuck you" to a very small minority in this case: Joe Giliberti. Josh Joe Giliberti wrote: > I hate when people cater to the minority, in this case, the families of 220 > people, out of the 6.8 billion on the planet. Just for the sake of argument, > lets say that each of those people had 20 people they were associated with > that could possibly be on this list. That comes out to 4400 people who > "might" be both on this list, and knew someone on the plane, out of a grand > total of 6.8 billion people on the planet. > > When the twin towers fell, the tsunami hit, and Katrina pummeled LA, there > is then cause for dignity and tact. Many thousands of people were affected > by those events. > > > > On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 2:38 AM, William Donzelli wrote: > > >> I think you just lowered the bar. I would have hoped you had more >> sense. What if the person is in grief, stricken by a loss? Do you >> think they are going to be reading this list? What will it be like >> when they catch up reading their messages? Will it comfort them when >> they find their loss is called insignificant? >> >> Folks, lets kill this right now. >> >> -- >> Will >> >> > > > From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Jun 3 03:28:53 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2009 09:28:53 +0100 Subject: vintage hardware still alive and kickin' -- another successful launch from vandenberg afb In-Reply-To: References: <4A25EEBC.4060200@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1244017734.1093.50.camel@elric> On Tue, 2009-06-02 at 23:53 -0400, William Donzelli wrote: > Printronics printer. Interestingly, VANGUARD still had the original > Univac shipping crates in one of the lower compartments. I can see the eBay auction now - "L@@K RARE! CDC CYBER BOXED AS NEW!" Gordon From alec at sensi.org Wed Jun 3 03:31:24 2009 From: alec at sensi.org (Alexander Voropay) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 12:31:24 +0400 Subject: Fw: Still Falling for Tetris, 25 Years After Its Birth Message-ID: <347d9b1b0906030131o2c2460d6qef0369629e5b40ef@mail.gmail.com> http://thejakartaglobe.com/lifeandtimes/still-falling-for-tetris-25-years-after-its-birth/278774 http://news.google.com/news?pz=1&ned=us&hl=en&q=tetris P.S. I have the original TETRIS.SAV binary for the Elektronika-60 (a Soviet LSI-11 clone) for the RT-11. It works under SIMH. Unfortunately, I have NO good opensource VT-52 emulator to play. Original Tetris requires 0177 character to be BLOCK to draw. -- -=AV=- From steve at cosam.org Wed Jun 3 02:38:28 2009 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 09:38:28 +0200 Subject: vintage hardware still alive and kickin' -- another successful launch from vandenberg afb In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <95838e090906030038v72793a7n93c8833794d06fe8@mail.gmail.com> 2009/6/3 David Griffith : > What are those things that look like photocopiers at middle-right-bottom? Not sure, but there are a couple in the middle and one in the bottom-left with paper wrapped around them. I'm guessing they're the "High Speed Plotters" referred to in the text. Cheers, -- Steve Maddison http://www.cosam.org/ From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jun 3 04:18:22 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2009 03:18:22 -0600 Subject: VT52 emulator (was: Fw: Still Falling for Tetris, 25 Years After Its Birth ) In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 03 Jun 2009 12:31:24 +0400. <347d9b1b0906030131o2c2460d6qef0369629e5b40ef@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <347d9b1b0906030131o2c2460d6qef0369629e5b40ef at mail.gmail.com>, Alexander Voropay writes: > P.S. I have the original TETRIS.SAV binary for the Elektronika-60 (a > Soviet LSI-11 clone) > for the RT-11. It works under SIMH. Unfortunately, I have NO good > opensource VT-52 emulator > to play. Original Tetris requires 0177 character to be BLOCK to draw. Interesting! Most stuff is OK with VT100 instead of VT52. Is it because the VT100 emulation is lacking in its VT52 support, or is it because the real VT100 is lacking in its VT52 compatability? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From paul at frixxon.co.uk Wed Jun 3 07:25:33 2009 From: paul at frixxon.co.uk (paul at frixxon.co.uk) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 13:25:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: VT52 emulator (was: Fw: Still Falling for Tetris, 25 Years After Its Birth ) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <242dce694f9ce6f843f55b095f049845.squirrel@frixxon.co.uk.mail.aaisp.net.uk> Richard wrote: > > Alexander Voropay writes: >> >> Unfortunately, I have NO good opensource VT-52 emulator >> to play. Original Tetris requires 0177 character to be BLOCK to draw. > > Interesting! Most stuff is OK with VT100 instead of VT52. Is it > because the VT100 emulation is lacking in its VT52 support, or is it > because the real VT100 is lacking in its VT52 compatability? I would've thought that Tetris would switch to the VT52 graphics set, which wasn't emulated by any subsequent DEC VT. However, a full block in that case would be 141 ("a"), not 177, which is DEL, so I assume Alexander is saying that the VT52 displays a block when receiving DEL. Other DEC VTs ignored DEL on receipt, even (I believe) in VT52 mode. Paul From frustum at pacbell.net Wed Jun 3 08:17:34 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2009 08:17:34 -0500 Subject: HP Virtual Tech Museum Message-ID: <4A2677EE.9080105@pacbell.net> This morning I received an email from someone apparently associated with HP Asia. At first I thought it was spam, but it seems to be legitimate. Here is the full text of the message. Perhaps others on this list have received the email too. Anyway, the link seems to check out as real. Su Yuen Chin wrote: Hi Jim Battle! This is Su Yuen from Waggener Edstrom and we represent HP. We were browsing the Internet for communities of old gadget collectors and came across a website with your details listed. We can see from the site that you are an avid collector of old gadgets, which we share a passion for as well. HP is currently working to build a ?Virtual Tech Museum? filled with pictures and stories of old technological gadgets from people around the world to marvel and share. To encourage more contributions, HP is currently hosting a regional competition to give away some of its latest tech offerings. The museum has just been launched and there are already a few submissions from the community. Being a collector yourself, it would be great if you could share some of your prized collections with the community and maybe the story of why you collect them. Oh, even though HP is funding the contest, the contributions do not have to be HP gadgets ? they can be from any company. Do visit the museum at http://www.hp.com/apac/virtualtechmuseum and let us know what you think. It would also be great if you could rope in like-minded friends and interest groups to let them know of this! Who knows, you might even find old gadgets you?ve been looking for to trade and add to your collection! Warmest regards, Su Yuen From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jun 3 08:27:01 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 06:27:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP Virtual Tech Museum In-Reply-To: <4A2677EE.9080105@pacbell.net> from Jim Battle at "Jun 3, 9 08:17:34 am" Message-ID: <200906031327.n53DR1Ps011358@floodgap.com> > This morning I received an email from someone apparently associated with > HP Asia. At first I thought it was spam, but it seems to be legitimate. > Here is the full text of the message. Perhaps others on this list > have received the email too. Anyway, the link seems to check out as real. I got this one also. The contest is only open to Asia-Pacific countries, so I discarded it. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- She loves ya! ... now what? -- "True Lies" --------------------------------- From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Wed Jun 3 08:49:11 2009 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 06:49:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NY Times article about the Moniac Message-ID: <871977.78823.qm@web112218.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> >From Wikipedia The MONIAC (Monetary National Income Analogue Computer) also known as the Phillips Hydraulic Computer and the Financephalograph, was created in 1949 by the New Zealand economist Bill Phillips to model the national economic processes of the United Kingdom, while Phillips was a student at the London School of Economics (LSE), The MONIAC was an analogue computer which used fluidic logic to model the workings of an economy. The MONIAC name may have been suggested by an association of money and ENIAC, an early electronic digital computer. Here is the NYTimes article http://judson.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/02/guest-column-like-water-for-money/ Here is the Wiki entry for the Moniac http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MONIAC_Computer From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jun 3 08:47:41 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 09:47:41 -0400 Subject: HP Virtual Tech Museum In-Reply-To: <4A2677EE.9080105@pacbell.net> References: <4A2677EE.9080105@pacbell.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 9:17 AM, Jim Battle wrote: > This morning I received an email from someone apparently associated with HP > Asia. ?At first I thought it was spam, but it seems to be legitimate. ?Here > is the full text of the message. ?Perhaps others on this list have received > the email too. ?Anyway, the link seems to check out as real. > > >> This is Su Yuen from Waggener Edstrom and we represent HP... I also received this message, but haven't followed up on the link yet. -ethan From spedraja at ono.com Wed Jun 3 09:40:40 2009 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 16:40:40 +0200 Subject: SLU's backpanel for one BA11-SB box (PDP-11/23 PLUS) Message-ID: I want to purchase in a few days from now one BA11-SB enclosure (tabletop type) to swap all the boards of my PDP-11/23 PLUS (my actual enclosure don't have a box cover). But there is a problem: The box is prepared to put a couple of mini back-panels, I suppose with the intention of put a couple of rs-232 ports, or another kind of connectors (network, etc)... but there are no panels. I believe that I saw something similar for one PDP-11 24 some months ago but I'm not sure. Trying to avoid homebrew solutions... someone knows about a product from Digital or 3rd party for this purpose ? Kind Regards Sergio From steve at cosam.org Wed Jun 3 10:09:20 2009 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 17:09:20 +0200 Subject: SLU's backpanel for one BA11-SB box (PDP-11/23 PLUS) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <95838e090906030809j5c953d2au42565de6e8cd7ed1@mail.gmail.com> 2009/6/3 SPC : > But there is a problem: The box is prepared to put a > couple of mini back-panels, I suppose with the intention of put a couple of > rs-232 ports, or another kind of connectors (network, etc)... but there are > no panels. ... > Trying to avoid homebrew solutions... someone knows about a product from > Digital or 3rd party for this purpose ? Do you mean the cigarette box-sized panels that screw into the distribution panel? Blank panels, or with ports mounted (and if so, which ports)? Cheers, -- Steve Maddison http://www.cosam.org/ From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Wed Jun 3 10:25:12 2009 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2009 11:25:12 -0400 Subject: receptacles (was IBM 029 Keypunch has arrived) In-Reply-To: <4A2534D4.27037.64D5D1E@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4A2500A8.24129.5819CB7@cclist.sydex.com>, <4A258DE4.9090607@sbcglobal.net> <4A2534D4.27037.64D5D1E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4A2695D8.2040701@sbcglobal.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 2 Jun 2009 at 16:39, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > >> Hrm? Picture anywhere? > > How about a product spec sheet? > > http://assets.twacomm.com/assets/pdf/18756.pdf > Thanks... I'll have to pass this to my person inside Hubbell to see if they have something like this. I like it. -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ "From there to here, From here to there, Funny things are everywhere." --- Dr. Seuss From mtapley at swri.edu Wed Jun 3 10:09:10 2009 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 10:09:10 -0500 Subject: USB-serial adaptors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 0:02 -0500 6/3/09, John Foust wrote: >I think there has been other threads here regardng the hit-or-miss >nature of these USB-to-serial adapters. I know when I needed one >to sync a Palm, I couldn't find one that did it right. I think >I hit my head against three $30 adapters to no avail, but this >was four-five years ago. I have no experience with these, but have a strong recommendation from Tim Lindner, who helped develop a serial file-server for Tandy Color Computers: At 8:46 -0700 4/12/09, tim lindner wrote: >Be on the lookout for a device that contains an FTDI chipset. Boisy and >I agree they are the best USB <-> RS232 devices. For whatever it's worth. My question was how I could get my Mac Powerbook G4 to serve files to my Color Computer 3; I have not ordered Drivewire yet, but I probably should do that soon. -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 3 10:34:31 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 11:34:31 -0400 Subject: RS-232 In-Reply-To: <4A256172.9080906@softjar.se> References: <4A256172.9080906@softjar.se> Message-ID: <532DF90F-C48C-4855-AEE2-AD55BCA0DC87@neurotica.com> On Jun 2, 2009, at 1:29 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >>>> >> USB only guarantees to supply 100 milliamps. Up to 500 mA >>>> can be >>>> >> negotiated with the controller, depending. Might your older >>>> device >>>> >> depend on more amps than the USB adapter can supply? >>> > >>> > Huh? The RS-232-port isn't supposed to deliver any power at >>> all. Some >>> > devices admittedly abused the RS-232 by using something like >>> DTR to >>> > actually supply the power needed to drive the thing, but that >>> is abuse. >>> > >>> > But I'd be surprised if a circa-70s modem was ever designed to >>> use the >>> > power from the RS-232 port to drive the modem itself. I'd >>> expect it to >>> > have an external power supply. >> He's not talking about powering the device, he's talking about >> driving >> the signal lines. Their input impedance isn't infinite, you know! > > No, but close enough to not make much difference. If the modem > would draw anywhere near 100mA over RS-232 just to get the levels, > something is seriously wrong. Well yes...100mA is excessive. I'm not sure it's reasonable, though, to assume that there'd be 100mA (or even 10% of that) of drive capability available on the TxD pin from a USB<->serial bridge. The suggestion was that the drive capability (whatever it may be) is insufficient, that everything will require a finite amount of current there, and perhaps the ancient modem just wants too much. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 3 10:35:18 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 11:35:18 -0400 Subject: USB-serial adaptors In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jun 3, 2009, at 11:09 AM, Mark Tapley wrote: >> I think there has been other threads here regardng the hit-or-miss >> nature of these USB-to-serial adapters. I know when I needed one >> to sync a Palm, I couldn't find one that did it right. I think >> I hit my head against three $30 adapters to no avail, but this >> was four-five years ago. > > I have no experience with these, but have a strong recommendation > from Tim Lindner, who helped develop a serial file-server for Tandy > Color Computers: > > At 8:46 -0700 4/12/09, tim lindner wrote: >> Be on the lookout for a device that contains an FTDI chipset. >> Boisy and >> I agree they are the best USB <-> RS232 devices. I have designed with these chips, and I like them. They do have their problems, but I agree that they're pretty good. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 3 10:37:54 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 11:37:54 -0400 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 70, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <00b801c9e400$a6ea5dc0$c600a8c0@JWEST> References: <4A24E694.8010800@softjar.se> <00b801c9e400$a6ea5dc0$c600a8c0@JWEST> Message-ID: <566894BB-83D8-4058-8B42-C2CE4207861B@neurotica.com> On Jun 3, 2009, at 12:06 AM, Jay West wrote: > These devices had a lot of trouble with RS423, where the voltage > was much less than RS232. I don't recall the exact numbers but > RS232 was something about 12V swings +/- 15V > and RS423 was about 3.5V swings. Other than that, the two were > pretty much identical. People often connected RS423 to 232 devices > with no problem at all. But those devices that expected power from > DTR or pins 9 or 10 (on a DB25) had a bit of difficulty when > plugged into a rs423 port. Some Sun systems have jumpers to switch their serial ports between RS232 and RS423 modes. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 3 10:38:14 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2009 08:38:14 -0700 Subject: receptacles (was IBM 029 Keypunch has arrived) In-Reply-To: <4A2695D8.2040701@sbcglobal.net> References: , <4A2534D4.27037.64D5D1E@cclist.sydex.com>, <4A2695D8.2040701@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <4A263676.17879.A3BCEF5@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Jun 2009 at 11:25, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > Thanks... I'll have to pass this to my person inside Hubbell to see > if > they have something like this. I like it. There's also a shallow box offered for it that makes for a very neat surface-mount or extension-cord type use. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 3 10:49:27 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 11:49:27 -0400 Subject: USB/serial adapters (was: cctalk Digest, Vol 70, Issue 3) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jun 2, 2009, at 10:53 PM, Richard wrote: >> I think there has been other threads here regardng the hit-or-miss >> nature of these USB-to-serial adapters. I know when I needed one >> to sync a Palm, I couldn't find one that did it right. I think >> I hit my head against three $30 adapters to no avail, but this >> was four-five years ago. > > I've used them to talk to terminals and had no problems. Yep. I use them all day, every day, and have never had the problems I've heard people complain about here. Right now on my main desktop machine, I have a USB<->serial adapter connected to an ARM9 development board, another connected to a homebrew Z80 SBC, another connected to a PDP-11/83, and yet another connected to a PDP-11/70. They all work wonderfully. I use Keyspan adapters. Admittedly, though, I've not tried my old A-J acoustic modem. Some people whine about they Keyspan adapters being too expensive...they may be having problems because they bought some cheap $5 adapters. The last Keyspan unit I purchased cost me (I think) about $30.00, and I bought it about six years ago. Complaining about $30.00 over six years is being too damn cheap, even for the cheapskates around here. On my Sun Ray thin clients, I use Edgeport quad-port adapters. They exhibit some latency (that may be due to the Sun Ray USB encapsulation though), but they work pretty well otherwise. The serial ports show up as devices on the Sun Ray host system. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mtapley at swri.edu Wed Jun 3 10:48:47 2009 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 10:48:47 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 70, Issue 6 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 10:33 -0500 6/3/09, Cameron wrote: > > This morning I received an email from someone apparently associated with >> HP Asia. At first I thought it was spam, but it seems to be legitimate. >> Here is the full text of the message. Perhaps others on this list >> have received the email too. Anyway, the link seems to check out as real. > >I got this one also. The contest is only open to Asia-Pacific countries, so >I discarded it. Cameron, thanks! I was undecided about whether to enter my Rainbow, knowing you guys would toast me totally anyhow. But, the geographical restriction decides me. -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jun 3 11:03:00 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 12:03:00 -0400 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 70, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <566894BB-83D8-4058-8B42-C2CE4207861B@neurotica.com> References: <4A24E694.8010800@softjar.se> <00b801c9e400$a6ea5dc0$c600a8c0@JWEST> <566894BB-83D8-4058-8B42-C2CE4207861B@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 11:37 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jun 3, 2009, at 12:06 AM, Jay West wrote: >> >> These devices had a lot of trouble with RS423, where the voltage was much >> less than RS232. I don't recall the exact numbers but RS232 was something >> about 12V swings > > ?+/- 15V Formally, yes, that's the max signalling voltage, but in practice, there's a lot of 1488/1489 circuits powered by 7812s and 7912s out there. I am pretty sure that the MAX232 can't get things better than about +/-10V (but I could be mistaken about that). -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 3 11:10:36 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 12:10:36 -0400 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 70, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: References: <4A24E694.8010800@softjar.se> <00b801c9e400$a6ea5dc0$c600a8c0@JWEST> <566894BB-83D8-4058-8B42-C2CE4207861B@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <16C5FFAB-0EBF-4FD6-B995-DD008225AD8E@neurotica.com> On Jun 3, 2009, at 12:03 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> These devices had a lot of trouble with RS423, where the voltage >>> was much >>> less than RS232. I don't recall the exact numbers but RS232 was >>> something >>> about 12V swings >> >> +/- 15V > > Formally, yes, that's the max signalling voltage, but in practice, > there's a lot of 1488/1489 circuits powered by 7812s and 7912s out > there. Very true; I was talking about the formal spec. I *think* the spec actually says +3V to +15V and -3V to -15V, but I don't recall for sure and I don't have it in front of me. > I am pretty sure that the MAX232 can't get things better than > about +/-10V (but I could be mistaken about that). The MAX232, if memory serves, is specced at 10V but usually tops out at 8-9V in my experience. I sure do love those chips. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From spedraja at ono.com Wed Jun 3 11:11:30 2009 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 18:11:30 +0200 Subject: SLU's backpanel for one BA11-SB box (PDP-11/23 PLUS) In-Reply-To: <95838e090906030809j5c953d2au42565de6e8cd7ed1@mail.gmail.com> References: <95838e090906030809j5c953d2au42565de6e8cd7ed1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: >Do you mean the cigarette box-sized panels that screw into the >distribution panel? Blank panels, or with ports mounted (and if so, >which ports)? Exactly. With ports mounted. The BA11-SB box supports a couple of them. I need one with a couple of RS232 ports (because the KDF11-B comes with a couple of SLUs) Eventually, it would be great to get other panel with one Ethernet connector plus others. Regards Sergio From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jun 3 11:19:15 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 12:19:15 -0400 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 70, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <16C5FFAB-0EBF-4FD6-B995-DD008225AD8E@neurotica.com> References: <4A24E694.8010800@softjar.se> <00b801c9e400$a6ea5dc0$c600a8c0@JWEST> <566894BB-83D8-4058-8B42-C2CE4207861B@neurotica.com> <16C5FFAB-0EBF-4FD6-B995-DD008225AD8E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 12:10 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > ?Very true; I was talking about the formal spec. ?I *think* the spec > actually says +3V to +15V and -3V to -15V, but I don't recall for sure and I > don't have it in front of me. That is my memory, too, but I don't have it in front of me either (but I used to make datacomm hardware, so I'm reasonably certain of it). >> ?I am pretty sure that the MAX232 can't get things better than >> about +/-10V (but I could be mistaken about that). > > ?The MAX232, if memory serves, is specced at 10V but usually tops out at > 8-9V in my experience. There you go... that makes sense. I've even been known to tap a few mA off of one of the negative charge pumps for LCD bias voltage for a serial-interfaced LCD panel (192x64 pixels). > ?I sure do love those chips. :) Yep. I love 'em too, especially when they can let me stick with a +5V-only design. Not as beefy as 1488s and 1489s, but a snap to use. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 3 11:31:45 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2009 09:31:45 -0700 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 70, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <16C5FFAB-0EBF-4FD6-B995-DD008225AD8E@neurotica.com> References: , , <16C5FFAB-0EBF-4FD6-B995-DD008225AD8E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4A264301.12767.A6CCB7C@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Jun 2009 at 12:10, Dave McGuire wrote: > The MAX232, if memory serves, is specced at 10V but usually tops > out at 8-9V in my experience. I sure do love those chips. :) I get about +/-10 out of the MAX232Ns from TI, but I use 10 uF/25v caps instead of 1uF on them (just have more of them in my hellbox). There are also the cap-less models from Maxim (can't recall the part numbers) that are pretty tempting. Some modern equipment gives you +5/0 for "RS232" levels. My DTV set- top-box with a DE9 on the rear panel labeld "RS232" is such an example. Although, I suppose we're going to have to start calling it "TIA- 232". --Chuck From slawmaster at gmail.com Wed Jun 3 01:13:57 2009 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 02:13:57 -0400 Subject: Inappropriate remarks (Was Fwd: Mystery object... ) In-Reply-To: <2b1f1f550906022305x2107b969hc0652df4dfa94b47@mail.gmail.com> References: <427125.14223.qm@web37101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <2b1f1f550906022305x2107b969hc0652df4dfa94b47@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7d3530220906022313i219be996u342148bbca0d0123@mail.gmail.com> Thank you. I'm more offended by the self-righteous response than by the original comments. "On a long enough time line, everyone's survival rate drops to zero." John On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 2:05 AM, Joe Giliberti wrote: > If you know someone who was lost, thats understandable, but the remarks > weren't really that bad. If someone on CC lost someone to it, let them > complain if they wish. There's no reason for you to be offended if you > didn't loose someone. 220 people out of the 7 billion on the planet is a > raindrop in the ocean. > > On Tue, Jun 2, 2009 at 5:15 PM, Julian Skidmore wrote: > >> >> Dear Cctech Members, >> >> > On Tue, 2 Jun 2009, Andrew Burton wrote: >> > > Technically it was lost over the Atlantic Ocean and reports >> > > of some sort >> > > of computer failure 30 minutes before they vanished. >> > Windows BSOD?? >> > > It's a shame they were using Amiga's, they'd have made it to France 1 >> > > hour earlier than expected! >> >> > "Guru meditation number"? >> >> These posts are the most insensitive & complete off-topic remarks I have >> ever seen on CCTech. The authors should be ashamed of themselves. >> >> For all you or I know, CCTech members could have had friends or loved >> ones on the aircraft, but in any case the passengers and staff who >> (as is almost certain) lost their lives in such a tragic and terrifying >> manner should be treated with far more respect than has been shown here. >> >> >> >> >> >> > -- "I've tried programming Ruby on Rails, following TechCrunch in my RSS reader, and drinking absinthe. It doesn't work. I'm going back to C, Hunter S. Thompson, and cheap whiskey." -- Ted Dziuba From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Jun 3 12:58:21 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 13:58:21 -0400 Subject: receptacles (was IBM 029 Keypunch has arrived) In-Reply-To: <4A2695D8.2040701@sbcglobal.net> References: <4A2534D4.27037.64D5D1E@cclist.sydex.com> <4A2695D8.2040701@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <200906031358.21599.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 03 June 2009, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 2 Jun 2009 at 16:39, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > >> Hrm? Picture anywhere? > > > > How about a product spec sheet? > > > > http://assets.twacomm.com/assets/pdf/18756.pdf > > Thanks... I'll have to pass this to my person inside Hubbell to see > if they have something like this. I like it. The Hubbell 4-plex stuff seems to be the closest thing (and was what I pictured originally when Chuck mentioned this). Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Jun 3 13:11:51 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 14:11:51 -0400 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 70, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <4A264301.12767.A6CCB7C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <16C5FFAB-0EBF-4FD6-B995-DD008225AD8E@neurotica.com> <4A264301.12767.A6CCB7C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200906031411.51096.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 03 June 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 3 Jun 2009 at 12:10, Dave McGuire wrote: > > The MAX232, if memory serves, is specced at 10V but usually tops > > out at 8-9V in my experience. I sure do love those chips. :) > > I get about +/-10 out of the MAX232Ns from TI, but I use 10 uF/25v > caps instead of 1uF on them (just have more of them in my hellbox). > There are also the cap-less models from Maxim (can't recall the part > numbers) that are pretty tempting. > > Some modern equipment gives you +5/0 for "RS232" levels. My DTV set- > top-box with a DE9 on the rear panel labeld "RS232" is such an > example. > > Although, I suppose we're going to have to start calling it "TIA- > 232". I've used the MAX 3233E recently, and it seemed to do what I wanted (allow me to hook a serial console up to a device with a 3.3V port), and I've used the 5V version (3235) before as well. It's nice having a 1-chip design for an RS-232 level converter. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From slawmaster at gmail.com Wed Jun 3 13:40:23 2009 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 11:40:23 -0700 Subject: vintage hardware still alive and kickin' -- another successful launch from vandenberg afb In-Reply-To: <1244017734.1093.50.camel@elric> References: <4A25EEBC.4060200@comcast.net> <1244017734.1093.50.camel@elric> Message-ID: <7d3530220906031140p3fc9abfbt247ed310a94dc10@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 1:28 AM, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > On Tue, 2009-06-02 at 23:53 -0400, William Donzelli wrote: > >> Printronics printer. Interestingly, VANGUARD still had the original >> Univac shipping crates in one of the lower compartments. > > I can see the eBay auction now - "L@@K RARE! CDC CYBER BOXED AS NEW!" > > Gordon > > More like L@@K RARE CDC CYBER IBM MAINFRAME SUPERCOMPUTER DEC UNIVAC PDP BURROUGHS HONEYWELL VAX CRAY NEW IN BOX given the way some sellers seem to like sticking every computer name under the sun in their descriptions. John -- "I've tried programming Ruby on Rails, following TechCrunch in my RSS reader, and drinking absinthe. It doesn't work. I'm going back to C, Hunter S. Thompson, and cheap whiskey." -- Ted Dziuba From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 3 13:13:57 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 19:13:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: Further 11/40 unibus questions... In-Reply-To: <4A257D0C.7010901@mail.msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Jun 2, 9 12:27:08 pm Message-ID: > > I think it's time to stop guessing -- I think we've tried all the obvious > > things -- and start logical faultfinding. What test gear does the OP > > have? > > > I have a nice Tektronix 1241 logic analyzer and a DMM (and a really > flaky old Tek O-scope). I said in my original mail on this thread that Excellent... > I just wanted to be sure my Unibus config _looked_ sane before I started > digging. (No sense spending hours debugging if all it is is a misplaced > board...) Sure. It is always best to look for the obvious things first (says the guy who once spent a long time fioguring out a low contrast fault on a VT100 video board, only to find the CRT screen needed cleaning...). But after a bit, it's best to attack the problem logically. > > > What _I_ would do is first check all the power voltages, with the boards > > in (it's too late to care about a rogue PSU damaging boards :-)). A low > > +5V line, or a missing supply to the terminator, will casue all sorts of > > problems. > > > The voltages seem to be fine with the boards installed (5.2V for the +5, > -5.3V for -5). I fixed the ACLO/DCLO problems I was having awhile back The other important power line is the -15V one, It's not just used for the RS232 drivers, it's used for the CPU clock on a lot of the older '11s > (turned out to be a bad contact on one of the many molex connectors. > That was nice, since I didn't want to pull the supply out again :)). How many +5V lines are there? Certainly in my 11/45 there are 4 or 5 +5V regulator bricks for the CPU, and you need to check the outputs of all of them. They are not parelleled, rather one feeds the CPU boards, another the first expansion backplane, and so on. > > > Then I'd look at all the Unibus signals both with the terminator out > > (they will still be terminated by the resistors at at the CPU end -- IIRC > > on an 11/40 these are on the Unibus jumper between the CPU and first > > expansion backplane) and with it fitted. I would guess something is > > changing state, let's find out what. > > > I will start looking at this tonight (assuming I have the time tonight > :)). Thanks. OK, let us know how you get on :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 3 13:30:44 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 19:30:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 70, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <00b801c9e400$a6ea5dc0$c600a8c0@JWEST> from "Jay West" at Jun 2, 9 11:06:20 pm Message-ID: > It was written... > > Huh? The RS-232-port isn't supposed to deliver any power at all. > Not quite true, but a case can be made.... As per the spec, pins 9 and 10 > are reserved specifically to provide test voltages. The current available is > minimal and designed mainly for testing purposes with breakout boxes, etc. > But it is there (from those that chose to implement it - which back in the > day was most folks). Not only that, but it was not uncommon - in fact very Was it? I can't think of many classic RS232 devices that have those pins wired. > > But I'd be surprised if a circa-70s modem was ever designed to use the > > power from the RS-232 port to drive the modem itself. I'd expect it to > > have an external power supply. > I can't imagine a 70's era modem getting power from the interface. Well, not > a modem designed to interface to analog POTS lines. A line driver or short > haul modem? Heck yeah, I've seen scads of them that got their power from the > RS232 interface. HP made one. Or more specifically HP made a 300 baud modem that plugged into their serial port and had no other power supply. Of course the HP serial port was a 50 pin microribbon connector with +5V, +12V and -12V power lines on it. Not test votlages, pins specifically designated as power outputs. IIRC, just about all 50 pins were used for something, the full interface has both RS422 and RS232 signals on it. Very few HP devices implemented everything (the 98628 serial card for HP9000/200 machines comes close). But the power pins were almost always wired. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 3 13:41:43 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 19:41:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 70, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Jun 3, 9 12:03:00 pm Message-ID: > > On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 11:37 AM, Dave McGuire wrote= > : > > On Jun 3, 2009, at 12:06 AM, Jay West wrote: > >> > >> These devices had a lot of trouble with RS423, where the voltage was muc= > h > >> less than RS232. I don't recall the exact numbers but RS232 was somethin= > g > >> about 12V swings > > > > =A0+/- 15V > > Formally, yes, that's the max signalling voltage, but in practice, I thoght that one state was a positive voltage between +3V and +25V wrt signal ground and the other state was a negative voltage between -3V and -25V wrt signal ground. Anything between -3V and +3V is illegal. There's no requiremnt, AFAIK, for the 2 votlages to be of the same magnitude. A signal which swings between +12V and -5V is perfectly valid. This explains a little circuit that I've sene used in small RS232 peripherals that run off their own wall-wart. Namely to use a 7905 (-5V) regulator to power the logic. The common +ve raill (wall wart +ve, regulator common pin) is the +5V line, the regulator output is the logic ground (so there's the normal 5V supply, right way round, for the logic). The RS232 driver is a discrete transsitor circuit running between the +5V line and the (unregulated) input to the regulator -- the -ve side of the wall-wart. Provided the latter is large enough, this does meet the RS232 spec. -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jun 3 14:25:29 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 15:25:29 -0400 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 70, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 2:41 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > I thoght that one state was a positive voltage between +3V and +25V wrt > signal ground and the other state was a negative voltage between -3V and > -25V wrt signal ground. You might be on to something there... I checked and the 1488/1489 pair is rated up to +/-30VDC. > Anything between -3V and +3V is illegal. Illegal, yes, but as others have pointed out, 0V might work with some modern equipment. > There's no requiremnt, AFAIK, for the 2 votlages to be of the same > magnitude. A signal which swings between +12V and -5V is perfectly valid. True, and I've seen +12V/-5V designs when the manufacturer didn't want to spring for -12V but had -5V lying around. I couldn't tell you where right now, but it was in something from the 1970s. -ethan From vp at drexel.edu Wed Jun 3 15:27:23 2009 From: vp at drexel.edu (vp) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 23:27:23 +0300 Subject: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo Message-ID: <5DCEDAB8-409B-4D36-A30D-41B2C33B2119@drexel.edu> Jim Battle wrote: > Golan Klinger wrote: > > Disclaimer: I wouldn't normally post this sort of thing but I'm > > confident it will be of interest to more than a few on this list. > > > > "1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo" > > > > Something weird there -- at 6:20 or so, he has a URL on the screen. It > looks to me like "http://ww.wikipedia.org". And it connects. But it is > "ww" not "www". There is no reason for him to go and fake it, but it > bugs me nevertheless. Maybe the missing "w" was mangled by line noise. In this session, echoing is done by the remote system (that is why we don't see the passwords), so it is possible that he typed the "w", but the echo had a parity error and was dropped by the terminal emulator. Remember these modems do not do any error correction, so any line noise results in mangled characters. Nevertheless, line noise usu results in strings of mangled characters, but 300 baud may be slow enough that only one was damaged. BTW 300 baud? Isn't 1964 a bit early for 300 baud? **vp From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 3 15:53:41 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2009 13:53:41 -0700 Subject: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo In-Reply-To: <5DCEDAB8-409B-4D36-A30D-41B2C33B2119@drexel.edu> References: <5DCEDAB8-409B-4D36-A30D-41B2C33B2119@drexel.edu> Message-ID: <4A268065.11756.B5CC6E9@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Jun 2009 at 23:27, vp wrote: > BTW 300 baud? Isn't 1964 a bit early for 300 baud? Not at all--the Bell 103 modem was deployed in 1962. --Chuck From alec at sensi.org Wed Jun 3 16:50:40 2009 From: alec at sensi.org (Alexander Voropay) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 01:50:40 +0400 Subject: VT52 emulator (was: Fw: Still Falling for Tetris, 25 Years After Its Birth ) In-Reply-To: References: <347d9b1b0906030131o2c2460d6qef0369629e5b40ef@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <347d9b1b0906031450i6ae1d2dl97507cc911e59d24@mail.gmail.com> 2009/6/3 Richard : >> Original Tetris requires 0177 character to be BLOCK to draw. > > Interesting! ?Most stuff is OK with VT100 instead of VT52. This TETRIS.SAV and many other soviet RT-11 games used hardcoded VT-52 sequences for cursor movement and positioning, i.e. "short" ESC "A" instead of ESC "[" "A" e.t.c. I've tried alot of VT-52/telnet emulators, it's awful. The one of the best is a M$ HyperTerm (sic!) in VT-52 mode. Electronica-60 was equipped with 15-IE-00-013 videoterminal (not sure about origins, maybe Tectronix clone ?). It had rather similar VT-52 sequences (K52.SAV worked w/o any problems). Also it had Cyrillic charset swithable via SI/SO ASCII control codes. The 0177 character was a 6x8 block. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elektronika_60 and ru. interwiki Videoterminal: http://www.leningrad.su/museum/show_calc.php?n=283 I've put my collection of the soviet RT-11 games here: http://www.nwpi.ru/~alec/SIMH/ To run this games you need working SIMH and RT-11. ./pdp11 PDP-11 simulator V3.8-0 sim> attach rl0 rtv53_rl.dsk sim> attach rl1 games.dsk sim> set throttle 200k sim> set console pchar=37777777777 sim> set console telnet=23 sim> boot rl0 . RUN DL1:TETRIS.SAV -- -=AV=- -- -=AV=- From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Jun 3 17:02:51 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2009 15:02:51 -0700 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 70, Issue 3 References: Message-ID: <4A26F30B.7192B636@cs.ubc.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 2:41 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > I thoght that one state was a positive voltage between +3V and +25V wrt > > signal ground and the other state was a negative voltage between -3V and > > -25V wrt signal ground. > > You might be on to something there... I checked and the 1488/1489 pair > is rated up to +/-30VDC. > > > Anything between -3V and +3V is illegal. > > Illegal, yes, but as others have pointed out, 0V might work with some > modern equipment. Well, just to wade in with another 'opinion', if I have it correct: the transmitter must drive the lines within the range +/-5V to +/-15V, the receiver must respond correctly to signals in the range +/-3V to +/-25V. The hysteresis provides some noise immunity; the wider receiver specs allows for some line drop, noise, and common-mode bumping. There is also something like a 1K to 7K impedance spec on a receiver. -- If there were one thing about RS232 and (smart) modems that I wish had been differently, it would be that the hayes modem standard had permitted some technique to switch between data mode and control mode without having those 2 second guard periods. That was (is) so annoying waiting for dial-up software to get the modem into control mode. I haven't thought it through completely in relation to the RS-232 protocol reqs., but perhaps using the control sigs in some manner, such as dropping DTR and then sending some special character sequence; or using some otherwise-unlikely combination of control sig states. From spedraja at ono.com Wed Jun 3 17:24:11 2009 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 00:24:11 +0200 Subject: SLU's backpanel for one BA11-SB box (PDP-11/23 PLUS) In-Reply-To: <2D94DE2F-F39F-4329-B11A-42B67A734BEC@gmail.com> References: <95838e090906030809j5c953d2au42565de6e8cd7ed1@mail.gmail.com> <2D94DE2F-F39F-4329-B11A-42B67A734BEC@gmail.com> Message-ID: > > I need one with a couple of RS232 ports (because the KDF11-B comes with a >> couple of SLUs) >> > I'm guessing you need one fitted with those small (10-way?) AMP connectors. > I believe it's known as a D315 panel. > Thanks ! It appears as an element of the 11/84 in some sellers. Eventually, it would be great to get other panel with one Ethernet > connector > plus others. > I can fix you up with a DEQNA/DELQA cab kit if you need one. Thanks again. Let me receive the box and the back panel and I shall tell you something. By the way... I am using one old IBM XT to enclose one EDSI hard disk to use with the PDP. I have too a couple of RX33 diskette units (more or less standard, not RX50), but I don't know if I can use them with one PDP-11. Regards Sergio From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Jun 3 17:42:38 2009 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 18:42:38 -0400 Subject: Inappropriate remarks (Was Fwd: Mystery object... ) Message-ID: <01C9E47B.2D3491A0@MSE_D03> -------------Original Message: Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 02:13:57 -0400 From: John Floren Subject: Re: Inappropriate remarks (Was Fwd: Mystery object... ) Thank you. I'm more offended by the self-righteous response than by the original comments. "On a long enough time line, everyone's survival rate drops to zero." John On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 2:05 AM, Joe Giliberti wrote: > If you know someone who was lost, thats understandable, but the remarks > weren't really that bad. If someone on CC lost someone to it, let them > complain if they wish. There's no reason for you to be offended if you > didn't loose someone. 220 people out of the 7 billion on the planet is a > raindrop in the ocean. > -----------Reply: Boy, tough crowd! So, do you guys go around to funerals in your spare time wearing funny hats and telling the bereaved mother that her son's untimely death is insignificant compared to the starving kids in Africa, and besides, he would have died some day anyway? And when someone suggests that's a bit inappropriate you deck 'em? Inability to empathize is often the result of a brain injury; had any bad bumps on the head lately? m From ian_primus at yahoo.com Wed Jun 3 19:52:26 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 17:52:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: QIC cartridge tape compatibility Message-ID: <944179.81494.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I have an older UNIX system with an internal Archive Viper 150mb SCSI QIC tape drive. In the drive was a DC600A tape cartridge. What's the difference between DC600A cartridges and the DC6150 cartridges I remember seeing years ago? I've tried reading this tape, but it doesn't appear to contain readable data - but then again, it may not have ever been intended for this drive. -Ian From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 3 20:01:45 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2009 18:01:45 -0700 Subject: QIC cartridge tape compatibility In-Reply-To: <944179.81494.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <944179.81494.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A26BA89.1777.C3FD9B5@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Jun 2009 at 17:52, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > I have an older UNIX system with an internal Archive Viper 150mb SCSI > QIC tape drive. In the drive was a DC600A tape cartridge. What's the > difference between DC600A cartridges and the DC6150 cartridges I > remember seeing years ago? I've tried reading this tape, but it > doesn't appear to contain readable data - but then again, it may not > have ever been intended for this drive. The old name for the DC6150 was DC600XL - XL for "Extended Length". I've used 600A, 6150/600XL and 6250 in my 150MB Tandberg and Caliper QIC-02 drives without any problem. --Chuck From rescue at hawkmountain.net Wed Jun 3 20:48:35 2009 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2009 21:48:35 -0400 Subject: QIC cartridge tape compatibility In-Reply-To: <944179.81494.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <944179.81494.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A2727F3.7020803@hawkmountain.net> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > I have an older UNIX system with an internal Archive Viper 150mb SCSI QIC tape drive. In the drive was a DC600A tape cartridge. What's the difference between DC600A cartridges and the DC6150 cartridges I remember seeing years ago? I've tried reading this tape, but it doesn't appear to contain readable data - but then again, it may not have ever been intended for this drive. > > -Ian > > DC600A = 9 tracks 60MB (600 ft tape), 550 Oersted DC6150 = 18 tracks, 150MB (600 ft tape), 550 Oersted I'd guess you can do 150MB on a DC600A as long as it is bulk erased first (I'd imagine the individual tracks are narrower on a QIC-150 formatted tape vis a QIC-24 format (60M) tape (much like 1.2M 5.25" floppy tracks are narrower than on the 360K drive (which led to all sorts of 'fun' writing 360K disks on a 1.2M drive!))) -- Curt From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 3 21:22:45 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2009 19:22:45 -0700 Subject: QIC cartridge tape compatibility In-Reply-To: <4A2727F3.7020803@hawkmountain.net> References: <944179.81494.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <4A2727F3.7020803@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <4A26CD85.7591.C89D6EE@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Jun 2009 at 21:48, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > DC600A = 9 tracks 60MB (600 ft tape), 550 Oersted > DC6150 = 18 tracks, 150MB (600 ft tape), 550 Oersted > > I'd guess you can do 150MB on a DC600A as long as it is bulk erased > first (I'd imagine the individual tracks are narrower on a QIC-150 > formatted tape vis a QIC-24 format (60M) tape (much like 1.2M 5.25" > floppy tracks are narrower than on the 360K drive (which led to all > sorts of 'fun' writing 360K disks on a 1.2M drive!))) That's odd--all of my 6150s are 620 ft. 6250s are 550 Oersted, but 1020 ft. What QIC-02 drives taking DC-600-sized carts require preformatted tape? I've got a Cipher 525 that takes DC600A carts, but it's a floppytape interface and probably requires preformatting. I've also got an Iomat requires a preformatted tape as the EOT and BOT markers are encoded (instead of holes in the tape). But all of my QIC02/QIC36/SCSI tape drives don't care what's on the tape beforehand. 9 tracks, 11 tracks, 18 tracks--it's all the same. On a related bit, I've gotten tapes in that were clearly written on the same system, but 310 Oe (DC300XL) tapes mixed with with 550 Oe (DC600A) tapes. Didn't seem to matter as far as readability 15 years down the road. --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Jun 3 21:37:30 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2009 19:37:30 -0700 Subject: Question re: 8" drive form-factor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A27336A.7050605@brouhaha.com> Steven Hirsch wrote: > Here's a strange one: I recently acquired two Shugart 851 drives from > another cctech-er. They were in nice shape and operate fine. The > weird part is their form-factor. > > I have 8 or 10 other 8" drives in my collection, both half-height and > full-height, including two other 851 Shugarts. All of these are 8.5" > wide, with faceplate and frame being exactly the same size. > > These two "new" Shugart units are _9.5"_ wide at the faceplate and > require a clearance of about 9-1/8" for the frame. Can anyone explain > this odd sizing? Were they perhaps manufactured against an earlier > standard? IIRC, the "R" suffix drives are intended to be rack-mounted in pairs. I have no idea, though, how that could be better than using the standard-width drives since either way they're going to need some mounting hardware. Eric From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jun 3 21:40:44 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2009 20:40:44 -0600 Subject: VT52 emulator (was: Fw: Still Falling for Tetris, 25 Years After Its Birth ) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 04 Jun 2009 01:50:40 +0400. <347d9b1b0906031450i6ae1d2dl97507cc911e59d24@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <347d9b1b0906031450i6ae1d2dl97507cc911e59d24 at mail.gmail.com>, Alexander Voropay writes: > This TETRIS.SAV and many other soviet RT-11 games used > hardcoded VT-52 sequences for cursor movement and positioning, > i.e. "short" ESC "A" instead of ESC "[" "A" e.t.c. VT100 supports these short escape sequences when in VT52 mode. Maybe the problem is that you didn't issue the escape sequence to put your VT100/emulator into VT52 mode first? > Electronica-60 was equipped with 15-IE-00-013 videoterminal > (not sure about origins, maybe Tectronix clone ?). It had rather > similar VT-52 sequences (K52.SAV worked w/o any problems). > Also it had Cyrillic charset swithable via SI/SO ASCII control > codes. The 0177 character was a 6x8 block. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elektronika_60 > and ru. interwiki > > Videoterminal: > http://www.leningrad.su/museum/show_calc.php?n=3D283 That is one cool looking video terminal, for sure :-). Physically it doesn't look like any Tektronix terminal, nor does the on-screen font shown in those photos. Most terminals ultimately ended up emulating two models: VT100 and Tektronix 4010/4014. The former was for character based displays and the latter was for graphics. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Wed Jun 3 21:41:35 2009 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2009 22:41:35 -0400 Subject: Inappropriate remarks (Was Fwd: Mystery object... ) In-Reply-To: <01C9E47B.2D3491A0@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20090603215436.03e904c8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that M H Stein may have mentioned these words: >Boy, tough crowd! > >So, do you guys go around to funerals in your spare time wearing funny >hats and >telling the bereaved mother that her son's untimely death is insignificant >compared >to the starving kids in Africa, and besides, he would have died some day >anyway? >And when someone suggests that's a bit inappropriate you deck 'em? Not how I would have put it, but I do agree. (weird, eh?) That said, if I can interject my own offtopic drivel here (everyone else is doing it... ;-) it really is important to walk a mile in someone else's moccasins before hitting the send button. Me personally... (did you catch the "Me personally" part??? Just wanted to emphasize that before you read what's next...) my untimely demise was supposed to happen over 40 years ago. It should have happened a few times since as well. I do *not* expect anyone to shed a tear _for me_ when it finally does happen. Drink a beer, pity my kids, feel relief for my wife (;-) but don't cry for me, revel in the years I shouldn't have had and the lives I've at least tried to help during my (in the grand scheme of things) minuscule existence on this orb. That said, any non-expected (sudden) loss is the hardest to bear (again, speaking from experience) and my heart goes out to the families & friends of those who perished who are now shouldering that burden. >Inability to empathize is often the result of a brain injury; had any bad >bumps on the head lately? Ugh. I'd file the previous comments to a poor attempt at levity (to give [minimal] credit where credit is due, at least they were ontopic - Guru meditation, etc. and were centered on a malfunctioning mechanical device) I find that comment just as tasteless as the comments before... do two wrongs make a right? To further the "poor attempt at levity" does anyone else here know the true meaning of life? "It's a sexually transmitted disease that ultimately results in death." That pretty much sums up how I view my life... but I don't transmit that viewpoint to others', but someone else will prolly take that snippet out of context. Now I can be loved & hated at the same time; true balance has been restored. Personally, I'll save my /true/ disdain for the Michigan State University students that _got up and cheered_ when the twin towers went down. Just teetering on the (prolly electrified) fence... Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | Anarchy doesn't scale well. -- Me zmerch at 30below.com. | SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Jun 3 21:44:51 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2009 19:44:51 -0700 Subject: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo In-Reply-To: <1243887860.1093.45.camel@elric> References: <4A1F1852.355206C9@cs.ubc.ca> <20090529123435.GJ31310@n0jcf.net> <1243676231.1093.23.camel@elric> <20090530224619.GO31310@n0jcf.net> <2B524E4E-1782-40D6-AAD2-3E10449A028A@neurotica.com> <20090601193231.GA26422@lucky.misty.com> <1243887860.1093.45.camel@elric> Message-ID: <4A273523.50603@brouhaha.com> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Okay, let's try again. I have a circa-70s 300-baud modem, that will > generate incorrect tones when it's plugged into a USB-to-serial > converter, but not when it's plugged into a real serial port. > > Why might this happen? > > The USB-serial adapter may be driving some of the other EIA-232 (formerly RS-232) signals differently than the "real serial port", and that might change the behavior of the modem, for instance by switching it from originate to answer mode, or switching it to V.21 frequencies for non-US operation, or putting it in analog loopback mode for testing, or... By the way, a 103 or V.21 modem doesn't actually have a fixed baud rate. They were officially specified for operation up to a maximum of 300 baud, but some people were able to get the 103 to work at 450 baud. Eric From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jun 3 21:47:13 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2009 20:47:13 -0600 Subject: vintage hardware still alive and kickin' -- another successful launch from vandenberg afb In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 03 Jun 2009 11:40:23 -0700. <7d3530220906031140p3fc9abfbt247ed310a94dc10@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <7d3530220906031140p3fc9abfbt247ed310a94dc10 at mail.gmail.com>, John Floren writes: > given the way some sellers seem to like sticking every computer name > under the sun in their descriptions. Its called keyword spam and you can report a listing on ebay for doing that. I do that when I've got searches looking for specific things and items keep coming up that don't match their description because of the keyword spam. Its not in ebay's interest to have your searches return false positives. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ian_primus at yahoo.com Wed Jun 3 21:49:10 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 19:49:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: QIC cartridge tape compatibility Message-ID: <728762.60532.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 6/3/09, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The old name for the DC6150 was DC600XL - XL for "Extended > Length".? > I've used 600A, 6150/600XL and 6250 in my 150MB Tandberg > and Caliper > QIC-02 drives without any problem. OK, that makes sense. So the media itself is compatible, that's good. Further examination of the tape I have reveals a possible explanation for my inability to read it - it appears that the tape itself is damaged very near the beginning, most likely from having been left loaded in a drive for the last ten years or so. Digging through things here, I did find one other tape. It works in the drive, so at least the drive is working properly. So, that brings me to my next question - anyone have some extra QIC 600/6150 tapes laying around? I need some to make boot media. -Ian From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Wed Jun 3 22:23:05 2009 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2009 20:23:05 -0700 Subject: TI Silent 700 model 733 manual In-Reply-To: <728762.60532.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <728762.60532.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A273E19.5060700@sbcglobal.net> If I remember correctly, someone was looking for a TI 733 manual. I found one today while sorting some boxes. If it's still needed I can get it to Al to be scanned. This is the large TI terminal, not the portable one. Bob From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Jun 3 23:20:51 2009 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 00:20:51 -0400 Subject: when soldering irons go bad In-Reply-To: <200905281311.n4SDBa0K020674@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <200905281311.n4SDBa0K020674@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4A274BA3.6030809@verizon.net> Dennis Boone wrote: > > One reason I never graduated to /real/ soldering stations is that I kept > > wondering "what do I do when it goes bad?". What do you guys recommend? I've been pretty happy with my Xytronic 137ESD although I'm not a heavy regular user. http://www.howardelectronics.com/xytronic/Images/137ESDLargeWeb.jpg I know several other people who have also purchased one and been happy. My first choice was Weller, but they were roughly 50-100% more expensive, and I couldn't justify the cost difference. HTH Keith From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Jun 3 23:23:10 2009 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith Monahan) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 00:23:10 -0400 Subject: anyone read dealers of lightning? Message-ID: <4A274C2E.6030705@verizon.net> Has anyone read Dealers of Lightning: Xerox PARC and the Dawn of the Computer Age ? http://www.amazon.com/Dealers-Lightning-Xerox-PARC-Computer/dp/0887309895 I swear the more and more I read about the history of computers, the more I keep coming back to Xerox PARC. The 70's must have been a pretty exciting time to be there. Anyone have any back stories or have read the book? I've got it on order, but I've read some scathing reviews about how the author got it wrong. I know some of the scathing reviews might be by people who weren't described in a favorable light in the book --- but I've seen plenty of technical stories get screwed up. Also any comments on Racing the Beam: The Atari Video Computer System would be helpful. Thanks Keith From evan at snarc.net Wed Jun 3 23:31:14 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 00:31:14 -0400 Subject: anyone read dealers of lightning? In-Reply-To: <4A274C2E.6030705@verizon.net> References: <4A274C2E.6030705@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4A274E12.8040907@snarc.net> > Has anyone read Dealers of Lightning: Xerox PARC and the Dawn of the > Computer Age ? Yes. I liked the book very much. Highly recommended. You'll also enjoy "The Dream Machine" by Mitchell Waldrop. Much of it overlaps with D.o.L. http://www.amazon.com/Dream-Machine-Licklider-Revolution-Computing/dp/014200135X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1244089806&sr=8-1 From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Wed Jun 3 23:31:29 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2009 21:31:29 -0700 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet Message-ID: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> Hey All -- So, instead of debugging my 11/40 last night I decided to get my 11/73 running again since all it needed was to be put back together :). Installed 2.11BSD on it from TK50 tape, and it was only slightly faster than the last time I installed it -- at 19.2kbps using vtserver :). At any rate, it's online, so to speak, so if you feel like playing around, just telnet to yahozna.dyndns.org. (login: guest, password Guest1!) Be kind, it's not the speediest thing out there. I figure it's rather unlikely it'll be hacked into, and if it is, worst case I can restore the drive from the image I made of it... Is there a repository of source/binaries for stuff people have (back) ported to 2.11BSD? I'm thinking of seeing if I can squeeze an older version of Apache on it if I ever find the time... - Josh (Specs, just in case anyone cares: 11/73 CPU, 2mb RAM, TK50 tape, DEQNA ethernet, TS11 -> M4 9 track (currently non functional) Emulex U07 SCSI -> SCSI->IDE bridge -> IBM Microdrive (4gb)) From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jun 3 23:42:40 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2009 21:42:40 -0700 Subject: anyone read dealers of lightning? In-Reply-To: <4A274C2E.6030705@verizon.net> References: <4A274C2E.6030705@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4A2750C0.4060704@bitsavers.org> Keith Monahan wrote: > Anyone have any back stories or have read the book? look for: Bob Taylor Butler Lampson Chuck Thacker Wayne Lichtenberger, Project Genie, Berkeley Computer Corporation William English Doug Englebart, SRI, Augment, Bootstrap Institute Bill Duvall Burt Sutherland Alan Kay Dan Ingalls Adele Goldberg ..and on and on and on They hired good people, and it was part of a continuum starting in the late fifties and many are active in the Valley decades after the events in the book. From doug at stillhq.com Wed Jun 3 23:56:45 2009 From: doug at stillhq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 14:56:45 +1000 Subject: USB/serial adapters (was: cctalk Digest, Vol 70, Issue 3) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A27540D.10001@stillhq.com> >>> I think there has been other threads here regardng the hit-or-miss >>> nature of these USB-to-serial adapters. I know when I needed one >>> to sync a Palm, I couldn't find one that did it right. I think >>> I hit my head against three $30 adapters to no avail, but this >>> was four-five years ago. >> >> I've used them to talk to terminals and had no problems. > > Yep. I use them all day, every day, and have never had the problems > I've heard people complain about here. Right now on my main desktop > machine, I have a USB<->serial adapter connected to an ARM9 > development board, another connected to a homebrew Z80 SBC, another > connected to a PDP-11/83, and yet another connected to a PDP-11/70. > They all work wonderfully. I use Keyspan adapters. > Likewise, I have never had a problem - for me they Just Work (tm) - Now to admit my dirty little secret... Just use the TX/RX/GND Lines, and tie RTS-CTS, and DSR-DTS-CD (At each end of the cable) - Hardware handshaking never quite works the way you expect it to! Doug From evan at snarc.net Thu Jun 4 00:02:40 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 01:02:40 -0400 Subject: anyone read dealers of lightning? In-Reply-To: <4A2750C0.4060704@bitsavers.org> References: <4A274C2E.6030705@verizon.net> <4A2750C0.4060704@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4A275570.9030102@snarc.net> > look for: > > Bob Taylor > Butler Lampson > Chuck Thacker > > Wayne Lichtenberger, Project Genie, Berkeley Computer Corporation > > William English > Doug Englebart, SRI, Augment, Bootstrap Institute > Bill Duvall > Burt Sutherland > > Alan Kay > Dan Ingalls > Adele Goldberg > > ..and on and on and on ... and Larry Tesler From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Jun 4 00:34:30 2009 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 01:34:30 -0400 Subject: anyone read dealers of lightning? In-Reply-To: <4A274C2E.6030705@verizon.net> References: <4A274C2E.6030705@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4A275CE6.9020103@atarimuseum.com> I read it, it was a good read, it really visualizes to the reader the whole atmosphere of PARC from its beginnings, I thought it well detailed how corporate nearly lost its prized possession - the Xerox copier with its arrogance. The refrigerator sized video frame buffer system and other amazing products, its a lot more then just a discussion about the Alto and the GUI. Its a good book overall. If you enjoy reading it, also read Soul of a new Machine, its about the creation of Data General and I think that was an even better read. Curt Keith Monahan wrote: > Has anyone read Dealers of Lightning: Xerox PARC and the Dawn of the > Computer Age ? > > http://www.amazon.com/Dealers-Lightning-Xerox-PARC-Computer/dp/0887309895 > > I swear the more and more I read about the history of computers, the > more I keep coming back to Xerox PARC. The 70's must have been a pretty > exciting time to be there. > > Anyone have any back stories or have read the book? I've got it on > order, but I've read some scathing reviews about how the author got it > wrong. I know some of the scathing reviews might be by people who > weren't described in a favorable light in the book --- but I've seen > plenty of technical stories get screwed up. > > Also any comments on Racing the Beam: The Atari Video Computer System > would be helpful. > > Thanks > > Keith > > > From evan at snarc.net Thu Jun 4 00:48:29 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 01:48:29 -0400 Subject: anyone read dealers of lightning? In-Reply-To: <4A275CE6.9020103@atarimuseum.com> References: <4A274C2E.6030705@verizon.net> <4A275CE6.9020103@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4A27602D.4090504@snarc.net> > If you enjoy reading it, also read Soul of a new Machine, its about > the creation of Data General and I think that was an even better read. I disagree. Nobody would have bought Soul if it was titled, "How Data General designed its latest computer." I found it very dull, whereas Dealers tells a story of a whole new era in computing. From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 01:03:26 2009 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 23:03:26 -0700 Subject: anyone read dealers of lightning? In-Reply-To: <4A27602D.4090504@snarc.net> References: <4A274C2E.6030705@verizon.net> <4A275CE6.9020103@atarimuseum.com> <4A27602D.4090504@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 10:48 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: >> If you enjoy reading it, also read Soul of a new Machine, its about the >> creation of Data General and I think that was an even better read. > > I disagree. ?Nobody would have bought Soul if it was titled, "How Data > General designed its latest computer." ?I found it very dull, whereas > Dealers tells a story of a whole new era in computing. Oh no, I have to agree with Curt... Soul Of A New Machine is a great read, as was Dealers. Of course, I'm a huge DG fan so I'm probably biased a bit. ;) Mark From john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 3 02:39:57 2009 From: john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com (John S) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 07:39:57 +0000 Subject: HP boards for sale in Sweden Message-ID: Hi, I saw a load of boards for sale here at 40 euro each: http://www.mjs-electronics.se/ then navigate to 'Test Instrument' on top menu, then 'Data & Telecom' on left menu. Some look like they belong in test equipment, but could some be for HP minis? I have no idea whether these are a good price for untested boards, but they certainly have a lot of different ones to browse. Regards, John _________________________________________________________________ Get the best of MSN on your mobile http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/147991039/direct/01/ From steve.cosam at gmail.com Wed Jun 3 11:39:50 2009 From: steve.cosam at gmail.com (Steve Maddison) Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 18:39:50 +0200 Subject: SLU's backpanel for one BA11-SB box (PDP-11/23 PLUS) In-Reply-To: References: <95838e090906030809j5c953d2au42565de6e8cd7ed1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2D94DE2F-F39F-4329-B11A-42B67A734BEC@gmail.com> On 3 Jun 2009, at 18:11, SPC wrote: > Exactly. With ports mounted. The BA11-SB box supports a couple of > them. > > I need one with a couple of RS232 ports (because the KDF11-B comes > with a > couple of SLUs) I'm guessing you need one fitted with those small (10-way?) AMP connectors. I believe it's known as a D315 panel. > Eventually, it would be great to get other panel with one Ethernet > connector > plus others. I can fix you up with a DEQNA/DELQA cab kit if you need one. Cheers, Steve From blstuart at bellsouth.net Thu Jun 4 01:22:11 2009 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 01:22:11 -0500 Subject: anyone read dealers of lightning? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <9d193b54d05f1670412dc9650ad2e0cf@bellsouth.net> > On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 10:48 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: >>> If you enjoy reading it, also read Soul of a new Machine, its about the >>> creation of Data General and I think that was an even better read. >> >> I disagree. ?Nobody would have bought Soul if it was titled, "How Data >> General designed its latest computer." ?I found it very dull, whereas >> Dealers tells a story of a whole new era in computing. > > Oh no, I have to agree with Curt... Soul Of A New Machine is a great > read, as was Dealers. Of course, I'm a huge DG fan so I'm probably > biased a bit. ;) Actually my interest in DG is largely a result of Soul. It's one of the few books I've read more than once, and one of even fewer that I've read in one sitting. One of the things that makes it stand out is that it comes at the story more from the engineer's perspective and less of the business perspective than many of the others. And for me the engineering is far, far more interesting than the business. BLS From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 4 01:25:15 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 03 Jun 2009 23:25:15 -0700 Subject: Elgar 1100 UPS Schematic? Message-ID: <4A27065B.28227.D681046@cclist.sydex.com> We had the rare thunderstorm here and my Elgar 1100 UPS turned into a large brick. I've got the schematics for the 1600, but not the 1100-- and I'd like to have it in hand before I go digging into the rat's nest of heavy wire. I've only had to work on it once before to replace a 50W zener, but this looks a little more involved. Can anyone help? If not, I think I can use the 1600 material to guess what's going on. it's close but not quite a match. Thanks, Chuck From evan at snarc.net Thu Jun 4 01:42:23 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 02:42:23 -0400 Subject: anyone read dealers of lightning? In-Reply-To: <9d193b54d05f1670412dc9650ad2e0cf@bellsouth.net> References: <9d193b54d05f1670412dc9650ad2e0cf@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <4A276CCF.8050100@snarc.net> > > Actually my interest in DG is largely a result of Soul. It's one of the few books I've read more than once, and one of even fewer that I've read in one sitting. One of the things that makes it stand out is that it comes at the story more from the engineer's perspective and less of the business perspective than many of the others. And for me the engineering is far, far more interesting than the business. > > BLS Fair enough. I'm more interested in the "story" behind the companies and products. For my own book, I'm concentrating on writing about who the people were, what they were thinking about, what decisions they had to make, etc., when designing products in a certain genre of computer history. From paul at frixxon.co.uk Thu Jun 4 01:54:09 2009 From: paul at frixxon.co.uk (paul at frixxon.co.uk) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 07:54:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: VT52 emulator (was: Fw: Still Falling for Tetris, 25 Years After Its Birth ) In-Reply-To: <347d9b1b0906031450i6ae1d2dl97507cc911e59d24@mail.gmail.com> References: <347d9b1b0906030131o2c2460d6qef0369629e5b40ef@mail.gmail.com> <347d9b1b0906031450i6ae1d2dl97507cc911e59d24@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Alexander wrote: > > This TETRIS.SAV and many other soviet RT-11 games used > hardcoded VT-52 sequences for cursor movement and positioning, > i.e. "short" ESC "A" instead of ESC "[" "A" e.t.c. > > I've tried alot of VT-52/telnet emulators, it's awful. [...] > > Electronica-60 was equipped with 15-IE-00-013 videoterminal. > It had rather similar VT-52 sequences [...] > The 0177 character was a 6x8 block. The VT52 ignored 0177 on receipt, so this game won't work on any decent VT52 emulator. You'd have to guess where the pieces were. :-) Paul From tiggerlasv at aim.com Thu Jun 4 02:11:16 2009 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 03:11:16 -0400 Subject: SLU's backpanel for one BA11-SB box (PDP-11/23 PLUS) Message-ID: <8CBB2FAC99914D2-B50-209A@WEBMAIL-MC20.sysops.aol.com> I believe what you're looking for (at least for the KDF11-B serial connectors) is this module: http://scandocs.trailing-edge.com/micropdp11/volume1_system_cpus/EK-245AA-MG-001/out017.html While there are probably 3rd-party modules out there, it is easier to find the real DEC bulkheads. Most of the DEC modules come with their own style of bulkheads. The DZV11 has it's own bulkhead, as does the DLV11-J The DHV11 bulkhead will also work on the DHQ11 You *could* build a custom ribbon cable to interface the DZV11 / DHV11 / DHQ11 bulkheads to work with the DEC standard 10-pin connectors, but it's easier just to find the proper bulkheads. Alternately, you could use just the mounting plate from the various bulkheads, and install your own DB25 connectors, and 10-pin cables. T From hamren at sdu.se Thu Jun 4 03:20:49 2009 From: hamren at sdu.se (Lars Hamren) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 10:20:49 +0200 Subject: TI Silent 700 model 733 manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A2783E1.5090803@sdu.se> > If I remember correctly, someone was looking for a TI 733 manual. That was me, a few weeks ago. > I found one today while sorting some boxes. Which manual did you find? I am looking for a service/repair manual. I already have "Model 733 ASR/KSR Operating Instructions, 959227-9701, Rev C" revised October 1974. > This is the large TI terminal, not the portable one. Mine is the large one with casette drives, pictured here: http://www.sdu.se/computer-automation-museum/pub/gallery/ti--silent-733-asr-with-casette-drives.jpg Thanks in advance /Lars Hamr?n From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Thu Jun 4 03:51:43 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 10:51:43 +0200 Subject: HP boards for sale in Sweden In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48B826919BA940BAAE557ABFC539631E@xp1800> I know the firm it is possible to bargain with them, but prices are exclusive VAT (25% for Sweden). And shipping from Sweden isn't cheap, and it takes them most times one or two weeks before they ship. I bought a lot of drives and computers from them a few month ago, it took me some time to negotiate the right price ;-) After that everything wend smoothly and my stuff arrived After a few weeks in good order. The boards are for the HP 64000 Developement System and for the HP 6942A Multi-Programmer. -Rik > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens John S > Verzonden: woensdag 3 juni 2009 9:40 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: HP boards for sale in Sweden > > > Hi, > > I saw a load of boards for sale here at 40 euro each: > > http://www.mjs-electronics.se/ > > then navigate to 'Test Instrument' on top menu, then 'Data & > Telecom' on left menu. > > Some look like they belong in test equipment, but could some > be for HP minis? > > I have no idea whether these are a good price for untested > boards, but they certainly have a lot of different ones to browse. > > Regards, > John > > _________________________________________________________________ > Get the best of MSN on your mobile > http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/147991039/direct/01/ > > From spedraja at ono.com Thu Jun 4 04:01:34 2009 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 11:01:34 +0200 Subject: SLU's backpanel for one BA11-SB box (PDP-11/23 PLUS) In-Reply-To: <8CBB2FAC99914D2-B50-209A@WEBMAIL-MC20.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CBB2FAC99914D2-B50-209A@WEBMAIL-MC20.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: I think is this, but the problem is how to install it in one ba11-sb Regards Sergio 2009/6/4 > > > I believe what you're looking for > (at least for the KDF11-B serial connectors) > is this module: > > > http://scandocs.trailing-edge.com/micropdp11/volume1_system_cpus/EK-245AA-MG-001/out017.html > > While there are probably 3rd-party modules out there, > it is easier to find the real DEC bulkheads. > > Most of the DEC modules come with their own style of bulkheads. > > The DZV11 has it's own bulkhead, as does the DLV11-J > > The DHV11 bulkhead will also work on the DHQ11 > > You *could* build a custom ribbon cable to interface > the DZV11 / DHV11 / DHQ11 bulkheads to work with > the DEC standard 10-pin connectors, but it's easier > just to find the proper bulkheads. > > Alternately, you could use just the mounting plate > from the various bulkheads, and install your own > DB25 connectors, and 10-pin cables. > > > > > T > > From james at machineroom.info Thu Jun 4 03:05:43 2009 From: james at machineroom.info (James Wilson) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 09:05:43 +0100 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4A278057.30706@machineroom.info> Josh Dersch wrote: > Hey All -- > > So, instead of debugging my 11/40 last night I decided to get my 11/73 > running again since all it needed was to be put back together :). > Installed 2.11BSD on it from TK50 tape, and it was only slightly > faster than the last time I installed it -- at 19.2kbps using vtserver > :). > > At any rate, it's online, so to speak, so if you feel like playing > around, just telnet to yahozna.dyndns.org. (login: guest, password > Guest1!) Be kind, it's not the speediest thing out there. I figure > it's rather unlikely it'll be hacked into, and if it is, worst case I > can restore the drive from the image I made of it... > > Is there a repository of source/binaries for stuff people have (back) > ported to 2.11BSD? I'm thinking of seeing if I can squeeze an older > version of Apache on it if I ever find the time... > > - Josh > > (Specs, just in case anyone cares: > 11/73 CPU, > 2mb RAM, > TK50 tape, > DEQNA ethernet, > TS11 -> M4 9 track (currently non functional) > Emulex U07 SCSI -> SCSI->IDE bridge -> IBM Microdrive (4gb)) > > > > > Sweet! I've just popped my 11 cherry :) As one of the, I suspect, younger members of the list (37) I've always fancied a proper blinkenlights 11 but never been in the right place at the right time. Compiling "hello world" on real hardware is just about the next best thing! Regards, James http://www.machineroom.info From bqt at softjar.se Thu Jun 4 03:59:38 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 10:59:38 +0200 Subject: VT52 emulator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A278CFA.80809@softjar.se> Richard wrote: >In article <347d9b1b0906030131o2c2460d6qef0369629e5b40ef at mail.gmail.com>, Alexander Voropay writes: >> > P.S. I have the original TETRIS.SAV binary for the Elektronika-60 (a >> > Soviet LSI-11 clone) >> > for the RT-11. It works under SIMH. Unfortunately, I have NO good >> > opensource VT-52 emulator >> > to play. Original Tetris requires 0177 character to be BLOCK to draw. > > Interesting! Most stuff is OK with VT100 instead of VT52. Is it > because the VT100 emulation is lacking in its VT52 support, or is it > because the real VT100 is lacking in its VT52 compatability? That was a weird comment. I'd say no stuff is OK with a VT100 if they expect a VT52. As soon as we go outside the plain "output running text", they are different. That said, a real VT100 can be switched into VT52-emulation, which is pretty good, although not exactly identical. In this case, the poster even was nice enough to tell what the problem was. A VT52 will display a block character when you send a DEL to it. A VT100 will not, not even in VT52-mode. And I don't think any other VT52-emulation I've seen does it either. In fact, I don't even know if a real VT52 do that. It might be a "feature" of some russian VT52-clone for all I know. I haven't had a working VT52 near me in 15 years now, so I can't check. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Jun 4 06:25:58 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 06:25:58 -0500 Subject: anyone read dealers of lightning? In-Reply-To: <4A27602D.4090504@snarc.net> References: <4A274C2E.6030705@verizon.net> <4A275CE6.9020103@atarimuseum.com> <4A27602D.4090504@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4A27AF46.7040600@pacbell.net> Evan Koblentz wrote: >> If you enjoy reading it, also read Soul of a new Machine, its about >> the creation of Data General and I think that was an even better read. > I disagree. Nobody would have bought Soul if it was titled, "How Data > General designed its latest computer." I found it very dull, whereas > Dealers tells a story of a whole new era in computing. I read it shortly after it came out and I thought it was a great read. A few years later, in 1986, I was working for Calera Recognition Systems, which at the time was called Palentir. Two or three months after joining, someone told me that the guy in the office next to my cube, Carl Alsing, was one of the people in Soul of A New Machine (Carl was the leader of the microkids, who wrote the microcode). I read the book again. The thing that impressed me about Tracy Kidder's writing was that in the part where Carl was described, Kidder captured aspects of Carl's personality in a paragraph or two that I recognized as being spot on. It gave the rest of the book that much more credibility. As was mention, the book wasn't so much about the DG business, but I'd disagree and say it wasn't so much about the engineering either; very little actually. It was mostly about the dynamics of the to bring the machine to life, both the internal politics of this skunk-works project and the inherent dynamics of the teams of mostly inexperienced engineers trying to accomplish something way beyond what they should have been able to do. If it had been a book about the actual engineering, very few people would have read it. From ragooman at comcast.net Thu Jun 4 06:32:11 2009 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 07:32:11 -0400 Subject: vintage hardware still alive and kickin' -- another successful launch from vandenberg afb In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A27B0BB.4070601@comcast.net> David Griffith wrote: > On Tue, 2 Jun 2009, Richard wrote: > >> In article <4A25EEBC.4060200 at comcast.net>, >> Dan Roganti writes: >> >>> "TIPS consists of two systems of the CDC Cyber 840 computers, 21 >>> systems >>> of the SEL 32/55 and 32/75A computers, and various peripheral and >>> supporting equipment on 2 acres of floor space." >>> http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/computers_mini_gallery_tips.html >> >> The terminals in this photo look like yummy CDC/PLATO terminals. >> > > What are those things that look like photocopiers at middle-right-bottom? > These happen to be the high speed plotters. The only info I have on them is they are made by Gould and were capable of speeds up to 10in/sec. Unfortunately, they were replaced about 15 yrs (photo is old) due to the fact that the liquid toner happened to be an environmental hazard. =Dan [ = http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Jun 4 06:35:56 2009 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 13:35:56 +0200 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: <4A278057.30706@machineroom.info> References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> <4A278057.30706@machineroom.info> Message-ID: <20090604113556.GA27464@Update.UU.SE> On Thu, Jun 04, 2009 at 09:05:43AM +0100, James Wilson wrote: > As one of the, I suspect, younger members of the list (37) I've always > fancied a proper blinkenlights 11 but never been in the right place at > the right time. Compiling "hello world" on real hardware is just about > the next best thing! Not to brag, but I'm 28 :) And I know of two more below 30, but I guess the average is a bit higher. Congrats on the cherrypopping (not something I thought I would say on this list) Cheers, Pontus From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Jun 4 06:46:08 2009 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 07:46:08 -0400 Subject: anyone read dealers of lightning? In-Reply-To: <4A27AF46.7040600@pacbell.net> References: <4A274C2E.6030705@verizon.net> <4A275CE6.9020103@atarimuseum.com> <4A27602D.4090504@snarc.net> <4A27AF46.7040600@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <5102.1244115968@mini> Jim Battle wrote: > .. >Systems, which at the time was called Palentir. Two or three months >after joining, someone told me that the guy in the office next to my >cube, Carl Alsing, was one of the people in Soul of A New Machine (Carl >was the leader of the microkids, who wrote the microcode). That's funny. I worked with Josh Rosen for 6 months before someone pulled me aside and whispered, "he's *that* Josh Rosen" :-) It didn't change anything (he was still fun to work with and very good) but it gave us more to talk about :-) -brad From alec at sensi.org Thu Jun 4 07:24:38 2009 From: alec at sensi.org (Alexander Voropay) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 16:24:38 +0400 Subject: VT52 emulator (was: Fw: Still Falling for Tetris, 25 Years After Its Birth ) In-Reply-To: References: <347d9b1b0906030131o2c2460d6qef0369629e5b40ef@mail.gmail.com> <347d9b1b0906031450i6ae1d2dl97507cc911e59d24@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <347d9b1b0906040524n137e8778sf23b4d0c45b07e96@mail.gmail.com> 2009/6/4 : >> The 0177 character was a 6x8 block. > > The VT52 ignored 0177 on receipt, so this game won't work on any decent > VT52 emulator. You'd have to guess where the pieces were. :-) I need opensource VT-52 emulator then. It should support Telnet to communicate with SIMH. PuTTY is good mature opensourse project but does not support VT-52 at all and very complicated (for me...). -- -=AV=- From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Jun 4 08:11:35 2009 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 06:11:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: anyone read dealers of lightning? In-Reply-To: <9d193b54d05f1670412dc9650ad2e0cf@bellsouth.net> References: <9d193b54d05f1670412dc9650ad2e0cf@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: > Actually my interest in DG is largely a result of Soul. It's > one of the few books I've read more than once, and one > of even fewer that I've read in one sitting. One of the things > that makes it stand out is that it comes at the story more > from the engineer's perspective and less of the business > perspective than many of the others. And for me the > engineering is far, far more interesting than the business. > I think my favorite quote from that book is (approximately), "I shall deal with no measurement of time shorter than a fortnight". :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_! From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 08:15:00 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 09:15:00 -0400 Subject: Inappropriate remarks (Was Fwd: Mystery object... ) In-Reply-To: <427125.14223.qm@web37101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <427125.14223.qm@web37101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A27C8D4.3080402@gmail.com> Julian Skidmore wrote: >>> Technically it was lost over the Atlantic Ocean and reports >>> of some sort >>> of computer failure 30 minutes before they vanished. >> Windows BSOD?? >>> It's a shame they were using Amiga's, they'd have made it to France 1 >>> hour earlier than expected! > >> "Guru meditation number"? > > These posts are the most insensitive & complete off-topic remarks I have > ever seen on CCTech. The authors should be ashamed of themselves. > > For all you or I know, CCTech members could have had friends or loved > ones on the aircraft, but in any case the passengers and staff who > (as is almost certain) lost their lives in such a tragic and terrifying > manner should be treated with far more respect than has been shown here. Humor is one way of dealing with tragedy and it always has been. Peace... Sridhar From steve at cosam.org Thu Jun 4 07:11:47 2009 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 14:11:47 +0200 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <95838e090906040511l380f022cn39fdd3e89ab84175@mail.gmail.com> 2009/6/4 Josh Dersch : > So, instead of debugging my 11/40 last night I decided to get my 11/73 > running again since all it needed was to be put back together :). ?Installed > 2.11BSD on it from TK50 tape, and it was only slightly faster than the last > time I installed it -- at 19.2kbps using vtserver :). Nice - I remember putting 2.11 on my '73 with VTServer certainly took long enough, even at 34.4Kbps! At least with the TK50 you get to use the original installation programs on a proper terminal. > At any rate, it's online, so to speak, so if you feel like playing around, > just telnet to yahozna.dyndns.org. ?(login: guest, password Guest1!) Be > kind, it's not the speediest thing out there. Your disk is probably a bit quicker than the rickety RD53 I used ;-) Did you recompile for DEQNA support? That took my machine a good couple of hours, after working through the overlay size issues. >?I figure it's rather unlikely > it'll be hacked into, and if it is, worst case I can restore the drive from > the image I made of it... More likely to de DoS'ed by hoards of classic computer geeks ;-) > Is there a repository of source/binaries for stuff people have (back) ported > to 2.11BSD? ?I'm thinking of seeing if I can squeeze an older version of > Apache on it if I ever find the time... That I'd like to see, although I'm not sure how it'll run with 2MB of RAM. There are other HTTP servers out there though, of course... Cheers, -- Steve Maddison http://www.cosam.org/ From dgahling at hotmail.com Thu Jun 4 08:52:59 2009 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 09:52:59 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: why would you ruin a perfectly good PDP with something as awful as BSD? what's the point? is there any advantage to ruining such wonderful hardware rather than running BSD say on an old 286 or something? it completely loses it's uniqueness, no special software, never seeing those wonderful command lines unique look and feel, everything that makes the machine special. might as well run a vanilla BSD box, no one would know the difference. except some of the commands that show what it's running on, but big whoop there. so is there something special you can do that shows it's uniqueness? Dan. > Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 21:31:29 -0700 > From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu > To: > Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet > > Hey All -- > > So, instead of debugging my 11/40 last night I decided to get my 11/73 > running again since all it needed was to be put back together :). > Installed 2.11BSD on it from TK50 tape, and it was only slightly faster > than the last time I installed it -- at 19.2kbps using vtserver :). > > At any rate, it's online, so to speak, so if you feel like playing > around, just telnet to yahozna.dyndns.org. (login: guest, password > Guest1!) Be kind, it's not the speediest thing out there. I figure it's > rather unlikely it'll be hacked into, and if it is, worst case I can > restore the drive from the image I made of it... > > Is there a repository of source/binaries for stuff people have (back) > ported to 2.11BSD? I'm thinking of seeing if I can squeeze an older > version of Apache on it if I ever find the time... > > - Josh > > (Specs, just in case anyone cares: > 11/73 CPU, > 2mb RAM, > TK50 tape, > DEQNA ethernet, > TS11 -> M4 9 track (currently non functional) > Emulex U07 SCSI -> SCSI->IDE bridge -> IBM Microdrive (4gb)) > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Internet explorer 8 lets you browse the web faster. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9655582 From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Thu Jun 4 09:14:03 2009 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 10:14:03 -0400 Subject: anyone read dealers of lightning? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200906041414.n54EDwIm020489@keith.ezwind.net> On Thu, 4 Jun 2009 06:11:35 -0700 (PDT), Gene Buckle wrote: >I think my favorite quote from that book is (approximately), "I shall deal >with no measurement of time shorter than a fortnight". :) About the time they added KPH to the spedo of american cars, a number of followers began looking at Furlongs Per Fortnight (FPF) as a more meaningfull distance over time unit of mesurement than Kph based on a therory of large numbers being better and faster .... We all know 60 mph = 96 kph which sounds faster. The same 60 mph = 161280 fpf which sounds real fast but is too big a number for most auto displays. It was not until fpf was converted to the biniary K that it made using a 4.5 digit display usefull for something other than a cheep digital scale. Introducing 1024, the galatic binary constant, into the conversion helped to modernize it a bit. 60 mph = 157.5 Kfpf, now that sounds real fast to a binary person. As a project planning person, plan for a week but ask for a fortnight, that way when they cut you project time/budget way back there was still a good chance of a timely completion. I like and use a Fortnight based billing and accounting system, that way I have 2 weeks to recover from the experiance of dealing with the book keeping chore. I have always questioned if the 28 day cycle that the credit card companys liked to use, was based on a bifortnight or was it more Menstrual in its origin? I am sure it was because they liked the idea of 13 periods a year, the cycle of lunacy based on a pagan lunar calander. Back under my rock The other Bob From tshoppa at wmata.com Thu Jun 4 09:14:59 2009 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 10:14:59 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet Message-ID: Josh writes: ? I'm thinking of seeing if I can squeeze an ? older version of Apache on it if I ever find the time... Pre-Apache, it was the "NCSA HTTPd", and I think a very stripped down version may fit. It may be vaguely possible to include the CGI stuff although I think that would be a lot of effort for very little reward. But... if you just want a web server, all you have to do is parse the HTTP request string and serve up the file. The DECUS C (K&R C, not ANSI C) web server at http://shop-pdp.kent.edu/ runs very nicely and would probably be way easier to port than starting with anything in ANSI C. But I think the simplest thing is just to start from scratch! Tim. From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Jun 4 09:19:20 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 07:19:20 -0700 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: At 9:52 AM -0400 6/4/09, Dan Gahlinger wrote: >why would you ruin a perfectly good PDP with something as awful as BSD? >what's the point? > >is there any advantage to ruining such wonderful hardware rather than running >BSD say on an old 286 or something? > >it completely loses it's uniqueness, no special software, never >seeing those wonderful command lines >unique look and feel, everything that makes the machine special. > >might as well run a vanilla BSD box, no one would know the difference. >except some of the commands that show what it's running on, but big >whoop there. > >so is there something special you can do that shows it's uniqueness? I couldn't agree more, HOWEVER, there is the slight issue of TCP/IP support. That would pretty much limit him to RT-11. Of course if you put it on HECnet you can run pretty much anything except RT-11. Personally my preference would be for RSTS/E or RSX-11M/M+. My view is if you want to run UNIX on DEC hardware, either get a DEC PC, or a DECstation (MIPS). I've run UNIX on Alpha, but mainly because I had a spare, and was already running OpenVMS on several Alpha's and VAXen. Having said that, one of these years I'd like to get 2.11BSD installed on a Hard Drive for my /73 (I use removable SCSI HD's). Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Thu Jun 4 09:21:14 2009 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 07:21:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Inappropriate remarks (Was Fwd: Mystery object... ) Message-ID: <334108.73252.qm@web112205.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> This is not dealing with tragedy, this is just tasteless. I can understand humor (I am a big fan of lowbrow humor myself) to try and deal with a tragedy, but this is not the example. There is also a time and a place for everything, the time is to close and this is not the forum. What was said was tasteless and the only thing it did was reflect poorly on those who wrote it. --- On Thu, 6/4/09, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > Humor is one way of dealing with tragedy and it always has > been. > > Peace...? Sridhar > From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Jun 4 09:30:45 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 07:30:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Jun 2009, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > Josh writes: > > ? I'm thinking of seeing if I can squeeze an > > ? older version of Apache on it if I ever find the time... > > Pre-Apache, it was the "NCSA HTTPd", and I think a very stripped down > version may fit. It may be vaguely possible to include the CGI stuff although > I think that would be a lot of effort for very little reward. > > But... if you just want a web server, all you have to do is parse the HTTP > request string and serve up the file. > > The DECUS C (K&R C, not ANSI C) web server at http://shop-pdp.kent.edu/ > runs very nicely and would probably be way easier to port than starting > with anything in ANSI C. But I think the simplest thing is just to start > from scratch! How about porting thttpd? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 09:26:18 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 10:26:18 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 9:52 AM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > why would you ruin a perfectly good PDP with something as awful as BSD? > what's the point? Because you can explore the roots of UNIX? > is there any advantage to ruining such wonderful hardware rather than running > BSD say on an old 286 or something? Only because UNIX sprung from the PDP-11 and didn't spring from an Intel box. If I wanted to use a 286 for something other than DOS, I'd probably run Minix. I don't know if there ever was a proper "BSD" ported or back-ported to the 286 (Venix, Xenix, etc., are evolutionary backwaters and therefore uninteresting to me). > it completely loses it's uniqueness, no special software, never seeing those wonderful command lines > unique look and feel, everything that makes the machine special. I love RT-11 (having made my living on it 20+ years ago) and a variety of proprietary DEC operating systems, so I understand the sentiment, but even back in the day, we ran 4BSD and SysV and Ultrix-32 on our 11/750 as well as VMS. More than a few universities ran 2BSD on their PDP-11/70s, not RSX-11M+ or RSTS/E. The history of DEC is intertwined with the history of UNIX, especially at academic sites. > might as well run a vanilla BSD box, no one would know the difference. > except some of the commands that show what it's running on, but big whoop there. > > so is there something special you can do that shows it's uniqueness? Living with the 16-bitness of the processor? 4BSD on a VAX was at one point, "the pinnacle" of the UNIX experience ("All the world's a VAX"). Massive address space, no need for overlays, etc. 2BSD is more representative of what people went through before 1978, with enough similarity to a modern environment that you can dabble without getting lost (older UNIX is missing lots of stuff that most of us take for granted anymore). I've also done some work exploring how the C compiler works by compiling programs on a PDP-11 platform, then disassembling them to see what C constructs map to what PDP-11 instructions (and I found the exercise quite enlightening). All of this can be easily done with a simulator like simh (and I've done it, more than 10 years ago), but it still doesn't compare to running on real hardware. So that's why _I_ would run BSD on a PDP-11. -ethan From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jun 4 09:36:59 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 07:36:59 -0700 Subject: anyone read dealers of lightning? In-Reply-To: <4A275570.9030102@snarc.net> References: <4A274C2E.6030705@verizon.net> <4A2750C0.4060704@bitsavers.org> <4A275570.9030102@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4A27DC0B.4090705@bitsavers.org> Evan Koblentz wrote: >> look for: >> >> Bob Taylor >> Butler Lampson >> Chuck Thacker >> >> Wayne Lichtenberger, Project Genie, Berkeley Computer Corporation >> >> William English >> Doug Englebart, SRI, Augment, Bootstrap Institute >> Bill Duvall >> Burt Sutherland >> >> Alan Kay >> Dan Ingalls >> Adele Goldberg >> >> ..and on and on and on > ... and Larry Tesler > After I wrote that, a dozen more people came to mind. As I said, PARC CSL and SSL were amazing labs at the time. By the early 80's they had built their large CISC machines, and the world (and many of the people) had moved on to DEC, Apple, Microsoft ... I worked under Larry when I was in the Advanced Technology Group at Apple. ATG did some good work too, and we had the same sorts of problems with technology transfer that they had at Xerox. The only way to get ideas accepted was to go into the product development group, which very few people wanted to do because ATG didn't have the pressure that Apple product development had. When Jobs came back, ATG was killed off. It was cheaper for him to just buy a startup if he wanted new technology than to have an in-house research group. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 09:00:34 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 10:00:34 -0400 Subject: VT52 emulator In-Reply-To: <4A278CFA.80809@softjar.se> References: <4A278CFA.80809@softjar.se> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 4:59 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > That said, a real VT100 can be switched into VT52-emulation, which is pretty > good, although not exactly identical. Agreed. > In this case, the poster even was nice enough to tell what the problem was. > A VT52 will display a block character when you send a DEL to it. A VT100 > will not, not even in VT52-mode. And I don't think any other VT52-emulation > I've seen does it either. > In fact, I don't even know if a real VT52 do that. It might be a "feature" > of some russian VT52-clone for all I know. It's worth investigating. > I haven't had a working VT52 near me in 15 years now, so I can't check. I have a VT52 close at hand, but it only recently arrived from a friend's house and I haven't had time yet to clean the dust off of it and fire it up. I can check in a week or so, but not anytime soon. -ethan From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Jun 4 10:14:07 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 16:14:07 +0100 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4A27E4BF.60404@dunnington.plus.com> On 04/06/2009 15:26, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Living with the 16-bitness of the processor? 4BSD on a VAX was at one > point, "the pinnacle" of the UNIX experience ("All the world's a > VAX"). Massive address space, no need for overlays, etc. 2BSD is > more representative of what people went through before 1978, with > enough similarity to a modern environment that you can dabble without > getting lost (older UNIX is missing lots of stuff that most of us take > for granted anymore). On a couple of occasions I've taken a PDP-11/23plus with dual RL02s into Computer Science for Open Days, to show it running 7th Edition. Always used to get a lot of interest, exactly because there's enough similarity that people can find their way around, but enough things missing that they notice (one of those things is speed, of course!). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 08:35:47 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 09:35:47 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 12:31 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Hey All -- > > So, instead of debugging my 11/40 last night I decided to get my 11/73 > running again since all it needed was to be put back together :). ?Installed > 2.11BSD on it... Nice. I have lots of experience with 2.9BSD, but I only have one or two machines that could run 2.11BSD (and thanks to a fellow listmember, my Pro380 has a new PSU, so is a likely target). > from TK50 tape, and it was only slightly faster than the last > time I installed it -- at 19.2kbps using vtserver :). Nobody ever pulled over a TK50 for speeding. > At any rate, it's online, so to speak, so if you feel like playing around, > just telnet to yahozna.dyndns.org... Neat. Thanks! > Is there a repository of source/binaries for stuff people have (back) ported > to 2.11BSD? ?I'm thinking of seeing if I can squeeze an older version of > Apache on it if I ever find the time... I don't know about anything as new as Apache (I can see the amount of process-space memory being an issue and having to write overlays), but for older BSD machines, I'd browse the old comp.sources.unix and comp.sources.games repositories. > (Specs, just in case anyone cares: > 11/73 CPU, > 2mb RAM, > TK50 tape, > DEQNA ethernet, > TS11 -> M4 9 track (currently non functional) > Emulex U07 SCSI -> SCSI->IDE bridge -> IBM Microdrive (4gb)) Nice. The microdrive is a nice touch. I should pick up a SCSI->IDE bridge or two for such occasions (though my largest Microdrive is 340MB). As a PDP-11 and BSD fan, let me say - nice job. -ethan From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Thu Jun 4 10:30:35 2009 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 16:30:35 +0100 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <6BB8957D32E5470B8FF57B51026CD24B@EDIConsultingLtd.local> Firstly it's a free world and there are probably as many differing views on this one as there are collectors. FWIW I set out to be a collector of anything made, sold, supported or given away by Digital Equipment Corporation from 1957 to 1997. If you have the freedom to do what you wish then you also have a responsibility to make sure you do not try to impose your choice on others. Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks Sent: 04 June 2009 15:26 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: PDP 11/73 on the Internet On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 9:52 AM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > why would you ruin a perfectly good PDP with something as awful as BSD? > what's the point? Because you can explore the roots of UNIX? > is there any advantage to ruining such wonderful hardware rather than running > BSD say on an old 286 or something? Only because UNIX sprung from the PDP-11 and didn't spring from an Intel box. If I wanted to use a 286 for something other than DOS, I'd probably run Minix. I don't know if there ever was a proper "BSD" ported or back-ported to the 286 (Venix, Xenix, etc., are evolutionary backwaters and therefore uninteresting to me). > it completely loses it's uniqueness, no special software, never seeing those wonderful command lines > unique look and feel, everything that makes the machine special. I love RT-11 (having made my living on it 20+ years ago) and a variety of proprietary DEC operating systems, so I understand the sentiment, but even back in the day, we ran 4BSD and SysV and Ultrix-32 on our 11/750 as well as VMS. More than a few universities ran 2BSD on their PDP-11/70s, not RSX-11M+ or RSTS/E. The history of DEC is intertwined with the history of UNIX, especially at academic sites. > might as well run a vanilla BSD box, no one would know the difference. > except some of the commands that show what it's running on, but big whoop there. > > so is there something special you can do that shows it's uniqueness? Living with the 16-bitness of the processor? 4BSD on a VAX was at one point, "the pinnacle" of the UNIX experience ("All the world's a VAX"). Massive address space, no need for overlays, etc. 2BSD is more representative of what people went through before 1978, with enough similarity to a modern environment that you can dabble without getting lost (older UNIX is missing lots of stuff that most of us take for granted anymore). I've also done some work exploring how the C compiler works by compiling programs on a PDP-11 platform, then disassembling them to see what C constructs map to what PDP-11 instructions (and I found the exercise quite enlightening). All of this can be easily done with a simulator like simh (and I've done it, more than 10 years ago), but it still doesn't compare to running on real hardware. So that's why _I_ would run BSD on a PDP-11. -ethan From austin at ozpass.co.uk Thu Jun 4 10:39:38 2009 From: austin at ozpass.co.uk (Austin Pass) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 16:39:38 +0100 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: On 4 Jun 2009, at 14:52, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > why would you ruin a perfectly good PDP with something as awful as > BSD? > what's the point? > [SNIP] > > might as well run a vanilla BSD box, no one would know the difference. > except some of the commands that show what it's running on, but big > whoop there. > > so is there something special you can do that shows it's uniqueness? If only somebody had a copy of OS/2 for PDP-11, that would be both "unique" and a "big whoop". ;-) I for one applaud somebody willing to take the time to build something and "put it out there" for all and sundry to peruse - it's the most interesting thing the internet has sent my way today, that's for sure. -Austin. From steve at cosam.org Thu Jun 4 10:15:58 2009 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 17:15:58 +0200 Subject: Emulex SCSI Controllers available... In-Reply-To: <200902261458.38651.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <200902261458.38651.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <95838e090906040815m598d5785me439f2e9c8fdee09@mail.gmail.com> Hi Lyle, Replying to a rather old message here. I expect I've somewhat missed the boat on the Qbus SCSI card offer. I don't suppose there happens to be one going spare, or if there's any chance of a second batch being ordered? Cheers, -- Steve Maddison http://www.cosam.org/ 2009/2/26 Lyle Bickley : > I was chatting with a DEC broker recently regarding SCSI controllers for > DEC gear - when he mentioned that he had a quantity of Emulex UC07's > available. > > UC07's are QBUS cards which have a single SCSI port and support either MSCP > or TMSCP (in RT land, that would be either DU or MU devices). The manual > states that the UC07 is compatible with RT, RSX, RSTS/E and Ultrix > versions which support MSCP or TMSCP. > > The dealers initial price was high (as expected). However, he then > added - "I'd be willing to do better for hobbyists - as long as they > commit that the boards will only be used for hobby purposes - and not for > commercial use". > > So here's the "deal": $235 per UC07 plus shipping from Mountain View, CA > (FedEx Ground). > > I've paid MUCH more for SCSI interfaces for my DEC QBUS and UNIBUS > systems - so IMHO, this is a great deal. > > The broker said he did not want to deal "individually with a bunch of > hobbyists" - so he asked if I would be willing to consolodate a single > order of UC07's to him. I reluctantly said "yes", as this is not my > business and I'm not interested in making money on this deal - only > covering costs. > > To get a sense of interest, please reply to me privately if you'd like one > or more if these "critters". > > The manual for the UC07 is available on bitsavers. A link to a bitsavers > mirror is below: > > http://bitsavers.vt100.net/pdf/emulex/UC0751001-F_UC07_Feb90.pdf > > Regards, > Lyle > -- > Lyle Bickley > Bickley Consulting West Inc. > http://bickleywest.com > "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" > From mross666 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 4 10:41:45 2009 From: mross666 at hotmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 15:41:45 +0000 Subject: More vintage hardware still alive and kickin' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Enjoy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RCgIrZiC6c Mike http://www.corestore.org _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_BR_life_in_synch_062009 From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Jun 4 10:42:52 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 16:42:52 +0100 Subject: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1244130173.3399.2.camel@elric> On Tue, 2009-06-02 at 18:54 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > Okay, let's try again. I have a circa-70s 300-baud modem, that will > > generate incorrect tones when it's plugged into a USB-to-serial > > Waht's the make and model of the modem? > > > converter, but not when it's plugged into a real serial port. > > Have you measured the voltage on the RS232 TxD pin in both cases? Tony is closest ;-) The USB serial adaptor only seems to put out a really tiny current. More than a few microamps (!) into a load makes it put out a train of spikes at about 20kHz more like a sawtooth wave, than nice neat pulses. The VCO in the modem just spacks out totally when you feed it this. Good for Aphex Twin-type noises, though. Gordon From slawmaster at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 10:42:46 2009 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 08:42:46 -0700 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: <4A27E4BF.60404@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> <4A27E4BF.60404@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <7d3530220906040842w2e4d0479k65d116ddab774e56@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 8:14 AM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 04/06/2009 15:26, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> Living with the 16-bitness of the processor? ?4BSD on a VAX was at one >> point, "the pinnacle" of the UNIX experience ("All the world's a >> VAX"). ?Massive address space, no need for overlays, etc. ?2BSD is >> more representative of what people went through before 1978, with >> enough similarity to a modern environment that you can dabble without >> getting lost (older UNIX is missing lots of stuff that most of us take >> for granted anymore). > > On a couple of occasions I've taken a PDP-11/23plus with dual RL02s into > Computer Science for Open Days, to show it running 7th Edition. ?Always used > to get a lot of interest, exactly because there's enough similarity that > people can find their way around, but enough things missing that they notice > (one of those things is speed, of course!). > Interesting, I didn't know a /23 could run V7--all I know for sure is that it works on /45s and /70s. Do you know any other machines it runs on? I'd like to try installing on my 11/73 (KDJ11-A) if possible. John -- "I've tried programming Ruby on Rails, following TechCrunch in my RSS reader, and drinking absinthe. It doesn't work. I'm going back to C, Hunter S. Thompson, and cheap whiskey." -- Ted Dziuba From blstuart at bellsouth.net Thu Jun 4 10:58:11 2009 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart at bellsouth.net) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 10:58:11 -0500 Subject: anyone read dealers of lightning? In-Reply-To: <4A27AF46.7040600@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <82885c8ac6eb91723791ffbc64724fd7@bellsouth.net> > As was mention, the book wasn't so much about the DG business, but I'd > disagree and say it wasn't so much about the engineering either; very > little actually. It was mostly about the dynamics of the to bring the > machine to life, both the internal politics of this skunk-works project > and the inherent dynamics of the teams of mostly inexperienced engineers > trying to accomplish something way beyond what they should have been > able to do. If it had been a book about the actual engineering, very > few people would have read it. Good point. That's part of why I phrased it as being told from the point of view of the engineers, rather than being about the engineering. Still there were elements that rang very familiar. It's been a long time since I last read it, but the picture is still vivid of going into a machine room, pulling the boards from a VAX one at a time and just looking at the choice of chips and the layout getting a feel for the mind of the creators. And who could forget the perspective of comparing features to a paper bag taped to the side of the machine? Those aspects of the engineering do make for an insightful story. After all, it's all too easy to get lost in the details of clock skew and debates over VHDL and forget that engineering is fundamentally about creation of artifacts that never before existed. BLS From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 11:04:59 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 12:04:59 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: <4A27E4BF.60404@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> <4A27E4BF.60404@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 11:14 AM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On a couple of occasions I've taken a PDP-11/23plus with dual RL02s into > Computer Science for Open Days, to show it running 7th Edition. ?Always used > to get a lot of interest, exactly because there's enough similarity that > people can find their way around, but enough things missing that they notice > (one of those things is speed, of course!). That sounds like a cool demo. I've loaded 2.9BSD (from real magtape) on an 11/24 w/dual RL02s, but it just wasn't enough room to be able to rebuild the kernel and load man pages, IIRC. 7th Ed. should fit better in 20MB. One of the things that always held me back in the 1980s when I tried to get 2BSD up on (my own) real gear was that I personally didn't own disks big enough to hold it comfortably. I had a pile of RL01s and RL02s, but couldn't afford RK07s or anything larger. I bought a KT24 and some memory from Terry Kennedy specifically to run 2.9BSD on the aforementioned 11/24, but ran up against the disk issue during the install phase (I had to run kinda stripped down, with the generic install kernel). By the time I could afford a MicroPDP w/at least an RD52, I was already running UNIX on old Sun gear, so that took the pressure off trying to get it running on DEC gear. I got my first tastes for DEC machines at work, but in the same way that I suspect many of us on the list also feel/felt, wanted to run the same stuff at home, single-user. To me, one of the great things about the DEC line (and the Sun line too, for that matter) was that OSes ran across a broad spectrum of hardware, such that I could use VMS at my day job, but I was still able to afford an 11/725 for my own use at home; or run RT-11 on a customer's 11/73, but do software development on my own 11/23. -ethan From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 11:12:27 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 12:12:27 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: > So that's why _I_ would run BSD on a PDP-11. All I remember about Unix on a PDP-11 is that it was painfully slow. At school, we had a PDP-11/70 (DECsystem 570, I think) that was almost universally hated. It was replaced by a fairly small AT&T 3B machine, which was not as painfully slow. I am not sure why the machines were real turtles, as there were never more than perhaps 10 users on at a time. -- Will From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Jun 4 11:24:41 2009 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 12:24:41 -0400 Subject: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo In-Reply-To: <1244130173.3399.2.camel@elric> References: <1244130173.3399.2.camel@elric> Message-ID: <14726.1244132681@mini> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > >Tony is closest ;-) > >The USB serial adaptor only seems to put out a really tiny current. >More than a few microamps (!) into a load makes it put out a train of >spikes at about 20kHz more like a sawtooth wave, than nice neat pulses. I've had problems with USB serial devices feeding various things, but mostly things that draw too much current. Most USB devices seem to only have +/-5v swings and if you draw too much current the sag quickly. Older PC's seem to have much better +/-12v swings and can supply more current. I have some digital thermostats which draw from DTR and will only work with a pc - they won't work with the +/-5v of a USB device because the voltage sags too much. With these same "problem" devices I've also not had much luck with simple max232 style outputs; they give a nice +/-10v swing but also sag quickly. I think the drivers have wimpy NP caps (like .1uf). I could try beefing those up and seeing if that helps. -brad From steve at cosam.org Thu Jun 4 10:31:00 2009 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 17:31:00 +0200 Subject: TK50 tribulations In-Reply-To: <965232.16843.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <965232.16843.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <95838e090906040831i323e00q19847a393ecb3898@mail.gmail.com> 2009/6/2 Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Did you clean the heads AND the leader strip? I had one with so much fuzz > on it that it would have surely gunked up the heads straight away. You > can clean the leader with alcohol, just like the heads. Sometimes these > things need multiple cleanings... I cleaned pretty much everything /but/ the leader. It's worth a try, but it looks pretty spotless. > I assume you've got this connected to a PDP-11 or Vax that you're using > to write to it, and that this isn't the SCSI flavored TK50Z. Yep, it's the "regular" TK50 hooked up to a Qbus TQK50 controller. -- Steve Maddison http://www.cosam.org/ From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Thu Jun 4 11:27:48 2009 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 09:27:48 -0700 Subject: TI Silent 700 model 733 manual In-Reply-To: <4A2783E1.5090803@sdu.se> References: <4A2783E1.5090803@sdu.se> Message-ID: <4A27F604.7000305@sbcglobal.net> Lars Hamren wrote: >> If I remember correctly, someone was looking for a TI 733 manual. > > That was me, a few weeks ago. Hi Lars. Yes, it for the model you show in the photos. It's the full service manual with theory of operations, parts list, board drawings, and schematics. The only problem is the schematics look like they have been reduced from "D" size to letter size and are a little hard to read. Manual no. 960129-9701 Rev E revised November 1977 "Model 732/733 ASR/KSR Maintenance Manual I'll try and get it over to Al to be scanned if he has the time. If there's something specific you are looking for, I can scan a few pages and email them to you. I have three of these terminals myself, all in various states of disrepair, that came with my TI 990 systems. A project for another day. Bob > >> I found one today while sorting some boxes. > > Which manual did you find? > > I am looking for a service/repair manual. I already have > > "Model 733 ASR/KSR Operating Instructions, 959227-9701, Rev C" > > revised October 1974. > >> This is the large TI terminal, not the portable one. > > Mine is the large one with casette drives, pictured here: > > http://www.sdu.se/computer-automation-museum/pub/gallery/ti--silent-733-asr-with-casette-drives.jpg > > > Thanks in advance > /Lars Hamr?n > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 11:23:49 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 12:23:49 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 12:12 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> So that's why _I_ would run BSD on a PDP-11. > > All I remember about Unix on a PDP-11 is that it was painfully slow. I've only ever run Unix on a PDP-11 as a single-user, but I'm not surprised to hear it. > At school, we had a PDP-11/70 (DECsystem 570, I think) that was almost > universally hated. It was replaced by a fairly small AT&T 3B machine, > which was not as painfully slow. > > I am not sure why the machines were real turtles, as there were never > more than perhaps 10 users on at a time. I'd have to wonder if the machine was swapping, or if it was just CPU-bound. Depending on what those 10 users were doing, that could be quite a lot. 4MB should be plenty of memory for a number of users (since each process is essentially limited to 128K total I&D space), but if everyone was trying to compile something at the same time, I can easily see how individual response would be poor. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 11:40:01 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 12:40:01 -0400 Subject: TK50 tribulations In-Reply-To: <95838e090906040831i323e00q19847a393ecb3898@mail.gmail.com> References: <965232.16843.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <95838e090906040831i323e00q19847a393ecb3898@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 11:31 AM, Steve Maddison wrote: > 2009/6/2 Mr Ian Primus wrote: >> I assume you've got this connected to a PDP-11 or Vax that you're using >> to write to it, and that this isn't the SCSI flavored TK50Z. > Yep, it's the "regular" TK50 hooked up to a Qbus TQK50 controller. Speaking of the SCSI-variant, I have a TK50Z-FA for my pile of MV2000s. I had been thinking of trying to upgrade it to a TK50Z-GA (new ROM and optionally a SCSI ID switch), but I'm curious if it'll still work with the MV2000. If it won't, it shouldn't be hard to rig up a double-sized ROM and a high-bit switch. Does anyone know if a TK50Z-GA works on a MV2000? -ethan From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Jun 4 11:49:58 2009 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 18:49:58 +0200 Subject: USB/serial adapters (was: cctalk Digest, Vol 70, Issue 3) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090604184958.fbe156b7.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 3 Jun 2009 11:49:27 -0400 Dave McGuire wrote: > Some people whine about they Keyspan adapters being too > expensive...they may be having problems because they bought some > cheap $5 adapters. I bought four different 5 EUR USB-RS232 adapters. They have all the same chip inside and just work on NetBSD: uplcom2: Prolific Technology Inc. USB-Serial Controller, rev 1.10/3.00, addr 2 Though I still have to connect them to my HP 54720D scope to chek if they provide proper voltage levels. > The last Keyspan unit I purchased cost me (I think) about $30.00 I spend 30 EUR in a cheap and generic PCI quad RS232 adapter card. Again: Just worked with NetBSD. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From rescue at hawkmountain.net Thu Jun 4 12:05:48 2009 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (rescue at hawkmountain.net) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 13:05:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: IBM AS400 inquiry Message-ID: <60584.67.93.24.222.1244135148.squirrel@www.hawkmountain.net> A friend of mine just obtained an AS400. It is a "9406-170 System S104V7NM Subsystem QCTL". I know nothing of AS400s. He did say it boots. So, what specs are this ? What does it run (OS ?, Apps ?), and what can be done with it (he was originally going to use it as an end table !!! until he found it actually booted). -- Curt From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Jun 4 12:09:30 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 18:09:30 +0100 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: <7d3530220906040842w2e4d0479k65d116ddab774e56@mail.gmail.com> References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> <4A27E4BF.60404@dunnington.plus.com> <7d3530220906040842w2e4d0479k65d116ddab774e56@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A27FFCA.9010900@dunnington.plus.com> On 04/06/2009 16:42, John Floren wrote: > On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 8:14 AM, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> On a couple of occasions I've taken a PDP-11/23plus with dual RL02s into >> Computer Science for Open Days, to show it running 7th Edition. Always used >> to get a lot of interest, exactly because there's enough similarity that >> people can find their way around, but enough things missing that they notice >> (one of those things is speed, of course!). > > Interesting, I didn't know a /23 could run V7--all I know for sure is > that it works on /45s and /70s. Do you know any other machines it runs > on? I'd like to try installing on my 11/73 (KDJ11-A) if possible. Unless it does something that doesn't work on a KDJ-11 but does on a KDF-11, it should be fine. I *think* I've actually done that. Or maybe i tried and it didn't boot -- the last time I would have tried would have been at least ten years ago. It can definitely run on an 11/34. If you look in the sources, you'll find some references to "small machine" -- ie an 11/34, 11/23, etc. Not everything is possible, though. For example FORTRAN isn't there, nor BASIC, nor vi (because curses isn't fully implemented) but ed is. ISTR there are a few other utilities that are linked (not symlinks, as V7 doesn't have them IIRC) to a proglet that simply prints "Not, as yet, available for a small machine". Or words to that effect. The machine I have came from the Heriot-Watt University in Edinburgh, and was one of their original development machines. They were one of the distribution centres for Seventh Edition, so I got a good system when it was passed on, and a lot of information from the staff there, along with an original distribution magtape and licenses. But of course no TCP/IP or anything like that. I had great fun getting a reasonably modern (for 1992) kermit to run on it, because of the overlays required. I remember one of the first shell scripts (if that's not too grand a word for a three liner) I wrote was a recursive ls (no "ls -R" in V7). The important things all work. Wumpus, for example, runs fine :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 11:20:03 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 12:20:03 -0400 Subject: UNIX on PDP-11s (was Re: PDP 11/73 on the Internet) Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 11:42 AM, John Floren wrote: > Interesting, I didn't know a /23 could run V7--all I know for sure is > that it works on /45s and /70s. Do you know any other machines it runs > on? I'd like to try installing on my 11/73 (KDJ11-A) if possible. I think it would come down to disk drivers. If the kernel will run on an 11/70, there's no difference I can think of off the top of my head why it wouldn't run on a KDJ-11, unless there's something about the 22-bit Unibus mapping on the 11/70 vs no mapping on the Qbus. Disks, though... a 11/73 is likely to have an MSCP disk controller, but the 11/70 has quite a number of supported disk controllers. I'd look at the 7th Ed. sources and the install process to see what 7th Ed. is expecting to load onto. It's all part of the joy of vintage gear - you used to have to know exactly what you had and exactly what the software was looking for to have a successful install experience. More than once, I had to install on machine A, then either move the disk or the data on the disk to machine B because I couldn't install directly on machine B (most often due to tape drive/boot ROM issues). You might be able to scope this out with simh prior to gathering genuine hardware, but if you have the hardware lying around, you might as well try it. -ethan From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Jun 4 12:27:12 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 10:27:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM AS400 inquiry Message-ID: <929676.73601.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 6/4/09, rescue at hawkmountain.net wrote: > So, what specs are this ? What does it run (OS > ?, Apps ?), > and what can be done with it (he was originally going to > use > it as an end table !!! until he found it actually booted). I had an IBM AS/400 9404 for a while. It did not boot - the hard drives were missing. The specs of mine were: heavy. beige. I used it as an end table. -Ian From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Jun 4 12:28:43 2009 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 19:28:43 +0200 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: <4A27E4BF.60404@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> <4A27E4BF.60404@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <20090604192843.3f5fdbf1.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 04 Jun 2009 16:14:07 +0100 Pete Turnbull wrote: > On a couple of occasions I've taken a PDP-11/23plus with dual RL02s into > Computer Science for Open Days, to show it running 7th Edition. Always > used to get a lot of interest, exactly because there's enough similarity > that people can find their way around, but enough things missing that > they notice (one of those things is speed, of course!). I did similar things with my 11/73 running 2.11BSD on the Vintage Computer Festival Europa. Fun to see people type "ps -elf"... :-) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From tiggerlasv at aim.com Thu Jun 4 12:31:05 2009 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 13:31:05 -0400 Subject: SLU's backpanel for one BA11-SB box (PDP-11/23 PLUS) Message-ID: <8CBB3515F8A764F-1464-5F5@webmail-dh09.sysops.aol.com> Sorry about that -- I forgot that the BA11 doesn't have those bulkhead openings on the back door. Let me guess -- the back door is just a solid piece of metal, with a small adjustable slot towards the bottom, to allow cables to pass through. . . If that is the case, then what you would do is to obtain one of the metal bulkhead frames that they use for expansion on the q-bus & unibus boxes. It's basically a rack-mountable metal piece, with a bunch of bulkhead openings on it. I don't know the DEC part number for that, but someone with a DEC Systems & Options catalog from say. . . 1986 . . . would be able to help you. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Jun 4 12:43:35 2009 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 19:43:35 +0200 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20090604194335.ed1bd0e5.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 03 Jun 2009 21:31:29 -0700 Josh Dersch wrote: > I figure it's rather unlikely it'll be hacked into In 2001 I took my 11/73 running 2.11BSD with me to HAL2001 [1]. It was connected to the network, telnet and FTP wide open, but nobody hacked the machine. Either people stoped in awe, or they where simply unable to hack PDP-11 assembler instead downloading the latest Linux root-kit. > I'm thinking of seeing if I can squeeze an older > version of Apache on it if I ever find the time... Apache? OMG! How will you squeze this pice of bloat into a 16 bit addres space, even with overlays? There are several "small" http daemons out there. E.g. thttpd or bozohttpd. [1] http://www.hal2001.org/ A few thousand hackers camping at a university campus, tents with computers and everything networked... There is somthing similar going on this year: https://har2009.org/ -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From spedraja at ono.com Thu Jun 4 12:52:49 2009 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 19:52:49 +0200 Subject: SLU's backpanel for one BA11-SB box (PDP-11/23 PLUS) In-Reply-To: <8CBB3515F8A764F-1464-5F5@webmail-dh09.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CBB3515F8A764F-1464-5F5@webmail-dh09.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: You're right. I got one photo of the back side of one BA11-SB and it's exactly as you describe it. Options ? Doing some homebrew would be possible to replace the back cover with one bulkhead of, perhaps, one BA23 :-) And, of course, you can get one BA23. But I have the BA11 in mind (by now) and I need to reuse some BA23 components. Regards Sergio 2009/6/4 > > Sorry about that -- I forgot that the BA11 doesn't have those > bulkhead openings on the back door. > > Let me guess -- the back door is just a solid piece of metal, > with a small adjustable slot towards the bottom, to allow > cables to pass through. . . > > If that is the case, then what you would do is to obtain > one of the metal bulkhead frames that they use for > expansion on the q-bus & unibus boxes. > > It's basically a rack-mountable metal piece, > with a bunch of bulkhead openings on it. > > I don't know the DEC part number for that, > but someone with a DEC Systems & Options catalog > from say. . . 1986 . . . would be able to help you. > > > > > From spedraja at ono.com Thu Jun 4 12:55:02 2009 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 19:55:02 +0200 Subject: UNIX on PDP-11s (was Re: PDP 11/73 on the Internet) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 11:42 AM, John Floren wrote: > > Interesting, I didn't know a /23 could run V7--all I know for sure is > > that it works on /45s and /70s. Do you know any other machines it runs > > on? I'd like to try installing on my 11/73 (KDJ11-A) if possible. > In PUPS repository exists one V7 version and even one V6 version, I think Sergio From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Jun 4 12:58:44 2009 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 13:58:44 -0400 Subject: anyone read dealers of lightning? In-Reply-To: <4A27602D.4090504@snarc.net> References: <4A274C2E.6030705@verizon.net> <4A275CE6.9020103@atarimuseum.com> <4A27602D.4090504@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4A280B54.10107@atarimuseum.com> It was a great point of view from the actual engineers and not management... to read about the daily frustration and struggles getting the first system going, the visualization of the wirewrapped "mess" being worked on and the toil they went through to get such a great computer design completed and out the door made for a very good read... Evan Koblentz wrote: >> If you enjoy reading it, also read Soul of a new Machine, its about >> the creation of Data General and I think that was an even better read. > I disagree. Nobody would have bought Soul if it was titled, "How Data > General designed its latest computer." I found it very dull, whereas > Dealers tells a story of a whole new era in computing. > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 4 12:27:40 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 18:27:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 70, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Jun 3, 9 03:25:29 pm Message-ID: > > On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 2:41 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > I thoght that one state was a positive voltage between +3V and +25V wrt > > signal ground and the other state was a negative voltage between -3V and > > -25V wrt signal ground. > > You might be on to something there... I checked and the 1488/1489 pair > is rated up to +/-30VDC. > > > Anything between -3V and +3V is illegal. > > Illegal, yes, but as others have pointed out, 0V might work with some > modern equipment. Of course. Most devices didn't bother to detect an illegal state on an input line and moan about it. They just had an input stage with a threshold somewhere between -3V and +3V. Any valid RS232 signal would be handled correctly, IIRC the well-known 1489 RS232 receiver chip has a threshold a little about 0V. You can drive the input (RS232 side) of such a chip with a TTL level signal and expect it to work -- I've done it myself many times for testing/quick hacks. If I know the RS232 device I am tryign to drive uses a 1489, I might well feed TTL signals into it. But I wouldn't do that in anything I ecpected others to use. Incidentally, I am suprised that any older RS232 device required 15V signals and wouldn't work on 12V signals. I've got some older HP RS232 interfaces (11205, 11206) that use 741 op-amps to drive the RS232 outputs. They run off a +/-9V supply The slightly later HP11284 uses 1488 drivers, again running off +/-9V. AFAIK that is totally within the RS232 spec. > > > There's no requiremnt, AFAIK, for the 2 votlages to be of the same > > magnitude. A signal which swings between +12V and -5V is perfectly valid. > > True, and I've seen +12V/-5V designs when the manufacturer didn't want > to spring for -12V but had -5V lying around. I couldn't tell you > where right now, but it was in something from the 1970s. I am not suprised. There's no reason not to do this, it meets the standard. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 4 12:32:10 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 18:32:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 70, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: <4A26F30B.7192B636@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Jun 3, 9 03:02:51 pm Message-ID: > Well, just to wade in with another 'opinion', if I have it correct: > the transmitter must drive the lines within the range +/-5V to +/-15V, > the receiver must respond correctly to signals in the range +/-3V to +/-25V. I think that is correct. > If there were one thing about RS232 and (smart) modems that I wish had been > differently, it would be that the hayes modem standard had permitted some > technique to switch between data mode and control mode without having those 2 > second guard periods. That was (is) so annoying waiting for dial-up software to > get the modem into control mode. The point weas that the Smartmodem would work using only the TxD and RxD data lines (it didn't use the control lines, simply because you couldn't rely on them even existing on some RS232 interfaces) _and_ it could not be fooled if the special sequence of characters to go to command mode occured e.g. in a file download. It was assumed (I think quite reasonably) that you'd not get the characters _and the pauses_ in a download. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 4 13:00:16 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 19:00:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: QIC cartridge tape compatibility In-Reply-To: <4A26CD85.7591.C89D6EE@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 3, 9 07:22:45 pm Message-ID: > What QIC-02 drives taking DC-600-sized carts require preformatted > tape? Not with a QIC02 interface (in fact the host interface is HPIB), but HP made a couple of drives (9144 and 9145 at least) that used takes with the same form factoer as the DC600, but which had to be factory formatted. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 4 12:56:44 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 18:56:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo In-Reply-To: <1244130173.3399.2.camel@elric> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Jun 4, 9 04:42:52 pm Message-ID: > > On Tue, 2009-06-02 at 18:54 +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Okay, let's try again. I have a circa-70s 300-baud modem, that will > > > generate incorrect tones when it's plugged into a USB-to-serial > > > > Waht's the make and model of the modem? > > > > > converter, but not when it's plugged into a real serial port. > > > > Have you measured the voltage on the RS232 TxD pin in both cases? > > Tony is closest ;-) > > The USB serial adaptor only seems to put out a really tiny current. > More than a few microamps (!) into a load makes it put out a train of In which case it's not even close to being RS232 compatible (I seem to remmebr an input impedance of the order of kilohms being OK for RS232 receivers). > spikes at about 20kHz more like a sawtooth wave, than nice neat pulses. Is it possible that the DC-DC converter is playing up? I asusme this USB-RS"32 converter is powered from the 5V on the USB port so presumably it contains some kinde of DC-DC converter to get RS232 levels, possible inside a MAXnnnn IC.Perhaps that can't supply enough current to the drivers. I saw this years ago on the RS232 card in my Philip P850. That card had a potted module on it to provide +/- 12 V (for 1488s) from the 5V logic supply. Mione had failed (I assume dried up capacitors) and output some interesting waveforms. The result, of course, was garbage on all the RS232 outputs. I will have to admit I've still not fixed it. There are pluggable jumpers on this board to disconnect this module and instead power the 1488s from pins on the serial cable connecotr. I did that, and provided a simple +/-12V unregulated supply. Works fine... -tony From steve at cosam.org Thu Jun 4 12:25:36 2009 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 19:25:36 +0200 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: <7d3530220906040842w2e4d0479k65d116ddab774e56@mail.gmail.com> References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> <4A27E4BF.60404@dunnington.plus.com> <7d3530220906040842w2e4d0479k65d116ddab774e56@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <95838e090906041025h58dc334emb6021d6174acf6c8@mail.gmail.com> 2009/6/4 John Floren wrote: > Interesting, I didn't know a /23 could run V7--all I know for sure is > that it works on /45s and /70s. Do you know any other machines it runs > on? I'd like to try installing on my 11/73 (KDJ11-A) if possible. I think V7 should run, the only problem is that vanilla V7 doesn't support the hardware often associated with later PDP-11s. It needs to be patched if you want to use RL02 drives, for example. You might want to try V7M (M for "modified" IIRC) which was tweaked by DEC and includes drivers for a lot of later hardware. It runs great on my KDJ11-A from two RL02s (one for root and swap, the other for /usr). I did however need to compile some bits and bobs in order to install it using VTServer and assemble a new boot block to get the ROM bootstraps to work. Cheers, -- Steve Maddison http://www.cosam.org/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jun 4 13:19:56 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 14:19:56 -0400 Subject: Inappropriate remarks (Was Fwd: Mystery object... ) In-Reply-To: <334108.73252.qm@web112205.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <334108.73252.qm@web112205.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0A051393-090B-48C9-954A-9A05E2E40EB3@neurotica.com> On Jun 4, 2009, at 10:21 AM, Christian Liendo wrote: > This is not dealing with tragedy, this is just tasteless. > > I can understand humor (I am a big fan of lowbrow humor myself) to > try and deal with a tragedy, but this is not the example. > > There is also a time and a place for everything, the time is to > close and this is not the forum. > > What was said was tasteless and the only thing it did was reflect > poorly on those who wrote it. Good lord. Find a hobby, eh? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 12:58:00 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 13:58:00 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: <20090604194335.ed1bd0e5.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> <20090604194335.ed1bd0e5.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 1:43 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Wed, 03 Jun 2009 21:31:29 -0700 > Josh Dersch wrote: > >> I figure it's rather unlikely it'll be hacked into > In 2001 I took my 11/73 running 2.11BSD with me to HAL2001 [1]. It was > connected to the network, telnet and FTP wide open, but nobody hacked > the machine. Either people stoped in awe, or they where simply unable > to hack PDP-11 assembler instead downloading the latest Linux root-kit. Yeah... there has to be *lots* of buffer-overrun-exploit potential on a 2BSD machine (gets() anyone?), but you have to know what to overflow the buffer *with* to get anywhere. -ethan From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Jun 4 13:14:23 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 19:14:23 +0100 Subject: UNIX on PDP-11s (was Re: PDP 11/73 on the Internet) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A280EFF.9020504@dunnington.plus.com> On 04/06/2009 17:20, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 11:42 AM, John Floren wrote: >> Interesting, I didn't know a /23 could run V7--all I know for sure is >> that it works on /45s and /70s. Do you know any other machines it runs >> on? I'd like to try installing on my 11/73 (KDJ11-A) if possible. > > I think it would come down to disk drivers. If the kernel will run on > an 11/70, there's no difference I can think of off the top of my head > why it wouldn't run on a KDJ-11, unless there's something about the > 22-bit Unibus mapping on the 11/70 vs no mapping on the Qbus. > > Disks, though... a 11/73 is likely to have an MSCP disk controller, > but the 11/70 has quite a number of supported disk controllers. Yes, and there's no MSCP driver for V7. Even the RL driver was a special case. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From blkline at attglobal.net Thu Jun 4 13:24:29 2009 From: blkline at attglobal.net (Barry L. Kline) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 14:24:29 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4A28115D.7060300@attglobal.net> Josh Dersch wrote: > At any rate, it's online, so to speak, so if you feel like playing > around, just telnet to yahozna.dyndns.org. (login: guest, password > Guest1!) Be kind, it's not the speediest thing out there. I figure it's > rather unlikely it'll be hacked into, and if it is, worst case I can > restore the drive from the image I made of it... Cool! Thanks for putting that online. Barry From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 4 13:26:18 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 11:26:18 -0700 Subject: QIC cartridge tape compatibility In-Reply-To: References: <4A26CD85.7591.C89D6EE@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 3, 9 07:22:45 pm, Message-ID: <4A27AF5A.26193.FFC2AC9@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Jun 2009 at 19:00, Tony Duell wrote: > Not with a QIC02 interface (in fact the host interface is HPIB), but > HP made a couple of drives (9144 and 9145 at least) that used takes > with the same form factoer as the DC600, but which had to be factory > formatted. Aren't those the Iomat-formatted tapes? (no holes in the tape, nor angled mirror for sensing them. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jun 4 13:26:17 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 11:26:17 -0700 Subject: QIC cartridge tape compatibility In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A2811C9.3080705@bitsavers.org> >> What QIC-02 drives taking DC-600-sized carts require preformatted >> tape? none The original QIC-11 and QIC-24 formats do a full width erase on the first track written. There are many QIC standards. 11 and 24 are the original on-tape format specs, with differing numbers of tracks. QIC-36 is the unformatted drive interface, QIC-02 was an intelligent interface that was quickly replaced by SCSI. Most converters were for QIC-36 to SCSI. Very early Sun systems used QIC-02 to SASI converters, but they switched to Emulex QIC-36 to SCSI adapters before going to embedded SCSI controllers on the 150mb archive drives. Unfortunately, the QIC web site doesn't have many of the early standards, you have to look at the specs for the drives or host adapters. I have heard that HP 914x 16 and 32 track drives used 3M CAPAMAT format, as did Apple's 40 meg tape drive, and require formatted tapes. I beleive the HP tapes are wound backwards as well. From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Thu Jun 4 13:31:51 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 11:31:51 -0700 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4A281317.4090501@mail.msu.edu> Dan Gahlinger wrote: > why would you ruin a perfectly good PDP with something as awful as BSD? > what's the point? > > is there any advantage to ruining such wonderful hardware rather than running > BSD say on an old 286 or something? > > it completely loses it's uniqueness, no special software, never seeing those wonderful command lines > unique look and feel, everything that makes the machine special. > > might as well run a vanilla BSD box, no one would know the difference. > except some of the commands that show what it's running on, but big whoop there. > > so is there something special you can do that shows it's uniqueness? > > Dan. > Well, was going to install my copy of OS/2 for PDP-11 from TK50, but I didn't have the proper Matrox framebuffer, alas. Josh From blkline at attglobal.net Thu Jun 4 13:37:28 2009 From: blkline at attglobal.net (Barry L. Kline) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 14:37:28 -0400 Subject: IBM AS400 inquiry In-Reply-To: <60584.67.93.24.222.1244135148.squirrel@www.hawkmountain.net> References: <60584.67.93.24.222.1244135148.squirrel@www.hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <4A281468.1060008@attglobal.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 rescue at hawkmountain.net wrote: > A friend of mine just obtained an AS400. > > It is a "9406-170 System S104V7NM Subsystem QCTL". > > I know nothing of AS400s. He did say it boots. > > So, what specs are this ? What does it run (OS ?, Apps ?), > and what can be done with it (he was originally going to use > it as an end table !!! until he found it actually booted). The 9406-170 runs OS/400. I think it will run up to V4R5 of the OS. OS/400 runs jobs segregated into subsystems, each tuned for their particular purpose. Subsystem QCTL is the controlling subsystem from which the remainder of the subsystems are started. When the system is in restricted state (think unix init 1) you have control over all objects. As for apps -- it's a business system. There are various languages available, including RPG, C, CL, COBOL, Java and perhaps a few others. I contend that Microsoft got many of its widely-touted-as-innovative features in the .NET languages from the AS/400, as the Integrated Language Environment (ILE) allowed you to seamlessly link between various ILE/languages. FWIW, there is a customized version of Apache on OS/400, as well as FTP and TELNET servers. Barry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFKKBRoCFu3bIiwtTARAv04AJ9hUcf7IzoYX0V5fOqqKLVoYES4eACeLYYc Pbjw6YwR76vUvoFp6xDaT/0= =tNkk -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Jun 4 13:27:35 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 19:27:35 +0100 Subject: anyone read dealers of lightning? In-Reply-To: References: <4A274C2E.6030705@verizon.net> <4A275CE6.9020103@atarimuseum.com> <4A27602D.4090504@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4A281217.7050600@dunnington.plus.com> On 04/06/2009 07:03, Mark Davidson wrote: > On Wed, Jun 3, 2009 at 10:48 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: >>> If you enjoy reading it, also read Soul of a new Machine, its about the >>> creation of Data General and I think that was an even better read. >> I disagree. Nobody would have bought Soul if it was titled, "How Data >> General designed its latest computer." I found it very dull, whereas >> Dealers tells a story of a whole new era in computing. > > Oh no, I have to agree with Curt... Soul Of A New Machine is a great > read, as was Dealers. Of course, I'm a huge DG fan so I'm probably > biased a bit. ;) I first read Soul Of A New Machine many years ago, and have re-read it since. I too found it a better read than Dealers of Lightning, but that's just me. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 12:40:54 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 13:40:54 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: <20090604192843.3f5fdbf1.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> <4A27E4BF.60404@dunnington.plus.com> <20090604192843.3f5fdbf1.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 1:28 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > I did similar things with my 11/73 running 2.11BSD on the Vintage > Computer Festival Europa. Fun to see people type "ps -elf"... :-) Heh... I just did that on yahozna.dyndns.org... well... it was more like "ps -ef^H^H^Haux". ;-) -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jun 4 13:43:58 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 14:43:58 -0400 Subject: UNIX on PDP-11s (was Re: PDP 11/73 on the Internet) In-Reply-To: <4A280EFF.9020504@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4A280EFF.9020504@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <51FE580A-8CB0-4651-A230-BE667C6DEA94@neurotica.com> On Jun 4, 2009, at 2:14 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: >>> Interesting, I didn't know a /23 could run V7--all I know for >>> sure is >>> that it works on /45s and /70s. Do you know any other machines it >>> runs >>> on? I'd like to try installing on my 11/73 (KDJ11-A) if possible. >> I think it would come down to disk drivers. If the kernel will >> run on >> an 11/70, there's no difference I can think of off the top of my head >> why it wouldn't run on a KDJ-11, unless there's something about the >> 22-bit Unibus mapping on the 11/70 vs no mapping on the Qbus. >> Disks, though... a 11/73 is likely to have an MSCP disk controller, >> but the 11/70 has quite a number of supported disk controllers. > > Yes, and there's no MSCP driver for V7. Even the RL driver was a > special case. Wasn't the MSCP driver backported from 2.11BSD to something earlier? Hmm, come to think of it, I think that was 2.9BSD, not V7. Hmm, MSCP on my PDP-11/24. 8-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jun 4 14:00:04 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 15:00:04 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> <4A27E4BF.60404@dunnington.plus.com> <20090604192843.3f5fdbf1.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <9C550673-304E-4FB2-A848-3C7341DE8E2D@neurotica.com> On Jun 4, 2009, at 1:40 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> I did similar things with my 11/73 running 2.11BSD on the Vintage >> Computer Festival Europa. Fun to see people type "ps -elf"... :-) > > Heh... I just did that on yahozna.dyndns.org... well... it was more > like "ps -ef^H^H^Haux". ;-) soda -> keyboard -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 4 14:03:20 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 20:03:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: QIC cartridge tape compatibility In-Reply-To: <4A27AF5A.26193.FFC2AC9@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 4, 9 11:26:18 am Message-ID: > > On 4 Jun 2009 at 19:00, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Not with a QIC02 interface (in fact the host interface is HPIB), but > > HP made a couple of drives (9144 and 9145 at least) that used takes > > with the same form factoer as the DC600, but which had to be factory > > formatted. > > Aren't those the Iomat-formatted tapes? (no holes in the tape, nor > angled mirror for sensing them. It's been a long time since I've been inside a 9144/5, but I seem to remember there is no optical stuff for a hole sensor. I can't comment on the name of the format. The 9145 contains a 68000 CPU and some battery-backed RAM modules, and alas some ASICs. One day I'll figure out something about it. -tony From hamren at sdu.se Thu Jun 4 14:12:15 2009 From: hamren at sdu.se (Lars Hamren) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 21:12:15 +0200 Subject: TI Silent 700 model 733 manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A281C8F.8060308@sdu.se> Hi, Bob > "Model 732/733 ASR/KSR Maintenance Manual Sound like what I am looking for. > I'll try and get it over to Al to be scanned if he has the time. Excellent! I look forward to that. I will contact you off-list. /Lars From RichA at vulcan.com Thu Jun 4 14:15:39 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 12:15:39 -0700 Subject: anyone read dealers of lightning? In-Reply-To: <4A274C2E.6030705@verizon.net> References: <4A274C2E.6030705@verizon.net> Message-ID: > From: Keith Monahan > Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 9:23 PM > Has anyone read Dealers of Lightning: Xerox PARC and the Dawn of the > Computer Age ? You should also read _Fumbling the Future: How Xerox Invented, Then Ignored, the First Personal Computer_, first published in 1988 when the look&feel lawsuits were getting hot. For those interested in the business side of this kind of book, there is a good bit more of that here. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell From vp at drexel.edu Thu Jun 4 14:16:12 2009 From: vp at drexel.edu (vp) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 22:16:12 +0300 Subject: Repairing an HP3421A (Signature Analysis) Message-ID: I am trying to repair an HP3421A data acquisition and control unit that fails its power on tests. In the service manual it refers to a number of "Signature Analysis" tests that essentially mean that the unit runs some diagnostic routine and you go and collect "signatures" from various test points. Unfortunately I do not have a device to compute these signatures. Does anybody know how to calculate them using a logic analyzer (I have a Bitscope and an HP 1630D), or something similar? Thanks **vp From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 14:17:18 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 15:17:18 -0400 Subject: UNIX on PDP-11s (was Re: PDP 11/73 on the Internet) In-Reply-To: <51FE580A-8CB0-4651-A230-BE667C6DEA94@neurotica.com> References: <4A280EFF.9020504@dunnington.plus.com> <51FE580A-8CB0-4651-A230-BE667C6DEA94@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 2:43 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > ?Wasn't the MSCP driver backported from 2.11BSD to something earlier? ?Hmm, > come to think of it, I think that was 2.9BSD, not V7. Yes. The MSCP driver was backported to 2.9BSD from 2.11BSD. I have yet to give that a try, but I'm looking forward to it when I have time to get back to that corner of the basement. > ?Hmm, MSCP on my PDP-11/24. 8-) Yep. I have at least one UDA50 and more than one SDI disk. :-) -ethan From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 14:20:20 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 15:20:20 -0400 Subject: IBM AS400 inquiry In-Reply-To: <60584.67.93.24.222.1244135148.squirrel@www.hawkmountain.net> References: <60584.67.93.24.222.1244135148.squirrel@www.hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <4A281E74.4070401@gmail.com> rescue at hawkmountain.net wrote: > A friend of mine just obtained an AS400. > > It is a "9406-170 System S104V7NM Subsystem QCTL". > > I know nothing of AS400s. He did say it boots. > > So, what specs are this ? What does it run (OS ?, Apps ?), > and what can be done with it (he was originally going to use > it as an end table !!! until he found it actually booted). Runs OS/400 (or i5/OS or whatever else they're calling it these days). Primarily programmed in RPG. Kicks some database ass. Has DB2 built-in to the operating system. The memory management architecture can be considered unusual. Peace... Sridhar From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Jun 4 14:21:15 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 20:21:15 +0100 Subject: UNIX on PDP-11s (was Re: PDP 11/73 on the Internet) In-Reply-To: <51FE580A-8CB0-4651-A230-BE667C6DEA94@neurotica.com> References: <4A280EFF.9020504@dunnington.plus.com> <51FE580A-8CB0-4651-A230-BE667C6DEA94@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4A281EAB.8050003@dunnington.plus.com> On 04/06/2009 19:43, Dave McGuire wrote: > Wasn't the MSCP driver backported from 2.11BSD to something earlier? > Hmm, come to think of it, I think that was 2.9BSD, not V7. > > Hmm, MSCP on my PDP-11/24. 8-) Yes, with a high-speed RD52 for authenticity ;-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From fsmith at ladylinux.com Thu Jun 4 14:24:30 2009 From: fsmith at ladylinux.com (Fran C. Smith) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 15:24:30 -0400 Subject: Inappropriate remarks (Was Fwd: Mystery object... ) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200906041524.35119.fsmith@ladylinux.com> On Thursday 04 June 2009 15:05:10 cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: This list is a HOBBY .. watching you guys go back and forth on this is annoying and NOT a Hobby. The point is made. One side finds humor in bad times (Good Trait) One side finds such humor offensive (Another Good Trait) You are both within your rights. But what any of this had to do with classic computers is beyond me. Now if this was the bruised egos mailing list .. > Good lord. ?Find a hobby, eh? > > ? ? ? ? ? ?-Dave -- Kindest Regards, Fran Smith CEO "No Problems Only Solutions" L.B. Network Consultants LLC. Baltimore, Maryland From RichA at vulcan.com Thu Jun 4 14:25:44 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 12:25:44 -0700 Subject: anyone read dealers of lightning? In-Reply-To: <4A275CE6.9020103@atarimuseum.com> References: <4A274C2E.6030705@verizon.net> <4A275CE6.9020103@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: > From: Curt @ Atari Museum > Sent: Wednesday, June 03, 2009 10:35 PM > If you enjoy reading [_Dealers of Lightning_], also read Soul of a new > Machine, its about the creation of Data General and I think that was an > even better read. De gustibus non disputandum. However, _Soul_ is very much NOT about "the creation of Data General", which was incorporated in 1968. It is rather about DG's effort, c. 1976, to get to market with a so-called supermini, in order to compete with DEC's VAX (which was under development at the same time). I first read _Soul_ as a serial in _Computerworld_ in the summer of 1977, and enjoyed it enough that I put it on my Christmas list (hey, I was still in grad school and had no money for extra books). Even so... Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell From emu at e-bbes.com Thu Jun 4 14:26:45 2009 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 15:26:45 -0400 Subject: For pickup: VAX-11/750 and RK07 In-Reply-To: <200906022316.53813.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200906022258.53816.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200906022316.53813.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <4A281FF5.6080005@e-bbes.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > And, they've been claimed. > That was fast. Yes, I can imagine. I gave mine away, and now I'm missing it ;-) From RichA at vulcan.com Thu Jun 4 14:29:19 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 12:29:19 -0700 Subject: anyone read dealers of lightning? In-Reply-To: References: <9d193b54d05f1670412dc9650ad2e0cf@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: > From: Gene Buckle > Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 6:12 AM Regarding _Soul of a New Machine_, Gene wrote: > I think my favorite quote from that book is (approximately), "I shall deal > with no measurement of time shorter than a fortnight". :) "season". The engineer in question left DG to live on an agrarian commune. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Thu Jun 4 15:11:37 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 22:11:37 +0200 Subject: Repairing an HP3421A (Signature Analysis) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2D41E9C369A84DFBAF7492485B01D79C@xp1800> In the HP Journal issue of May 1977 http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/pdfs/IssuePDFs/hpjindex.html there is an article about signature analysis. Otherwise the service manual of the HP 5004 http://www.gamearchive.com/General/Data_Sheets/HP5004.pdf or 5006 should help you further. The signature check is related to the CRC check. -Rik > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens vp > Verzonden: donderdag 4 juni 2009 21:16 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Repairing an HP3421A (Signature Analysis) > > I am trying to repair an HP3421A data acquisition and control > unit that fails its power on tests. > > In the service manual it refers to a number of "Signature Analysis" > tests that essentially mean that the unit runs some > diagnostic routine and you go and collect "signatures" from > various test points. > > Unfortunately I do not have a device to compute these signatures. > > Does anybody know how to calculate them using a logic > analyzer (I have a Bitscope and an HP 1630D), or something similar? > > Thanks > > **vp > > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 14:52:40 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 15:52:40 -0400 Subject: For pickup: VAX-11/750 and RK07 In-Reply-To: <4A281FF5.6080005@e-bbes.com> References: <200906022258.53816.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200906022316.53813.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4A281FF5.6080005@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 3:26 PM, e.stiebler wrote: > Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> >> And, they've been claimed. >> That was fast. > > Yes, I can imagine. I gave mine away, and now I'm missing it ;-) Indeed. 15 years ago, I was able to save the 11/750 from work, but could not find room for a pair of RK07s and a pickup-truck-load of RK07 cartridges. Those were good drives - easy to repair, decent amount of storage for the day, fast. Just don't get your fingers behind the ears on the voice coil during a power-down - those heads snap back *fast*! (when the NiCd pack is good, that is). Someone just got a fun little system to play with. Hopefully we'll hear what it's running and how it's loaded before too long. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jun 4 15:20:56 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 16:20:56 -0400 Subject: Repairing an HP3421A (Signature Analysis) In-Reply-To: <2D41E9C369A84DFBAF7492485B01D79C@xp1800> References: <2D41E9C369A84DFBAF7492485B01D79C@xp1800> Message-ID: And actual HP signature multimeters show up everywhere, and tend to be cheap. -Dave On Jun 4, 2009, at 4:11 PM, Rik Bos wrote: > In the HP Journal issue of May 1977 > http://www.hpl.hp.com/hpjournal/pdfs/IssuePDFs/hpjindex.html there > is an > article about signature analysis. > Otherwise the service manual of the HP 5004 > http://www.gamearchive.com/General/Data_Sheets/HP5004.pdf or 5006 > should > help you further. > The signature check is related to the CRC check. > > -Rik > >> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- >> Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org >> [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens vp >> Verzonden: donderdag 4 juni 2009 21:16 >> Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Onderwerp: Repairing an HP3421A (Signature Analysis) >> >> I am trying to repair an HP3421A data acquisition and control >> unit that fails its power on tests. >> >> In the service manual it refers to a number of "Signature Analysis" >> tests that essentially mean that the unit runs some >> diagnostic routine and you go and collect "signatures" from >> various test points. >> >> Unfortunately I do not have a device to compute these signatures. >> >> Does anybody know how to calculate them using a logic >> analyzer (I have a Bitscope and an HP 1630D), or something similar? >> >> Thanks >> >> **vp >> >> >> -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jun 4 15:23:54 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 16:23:54 -0400 Subject: For pickup: VAX-11/750 and RK07 In-Reply-To: <4A281FF5.6080005@e-bbes.com> References: <200906022258.53816.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200906022316.53813.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4A281FF5.6080005@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <1C03C1A4-6BA1-4DCE-965B-7AD5FE09F878@neurotica.com> On Jun 4, 2009, at 3:26 PM, e.stiebler wrote: >> And, they've been claimed. >> That was fast. > > Yes, I can imagine. I gave mine away, and now I'm missing it ;-) I did too, with both an 11/750 and an RK07. The RK07 was never used on the 11/750, though. I regretted it for years. A few years ago, though, John Wilson gave me a pair of RK07s (one of which runs!), and last fall, I picked up an 11/750 from Patrick. I still owe Patrick something for the 11/750 (as well as some other stuff, Patrick, we'll get together on that). I am grateful to both he and John for helping me to recover from my own stupidity. :) I dearly love this hardware. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From chrise at pobox.com Thu Jun 4 06:31:17 2009 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 06:31:17 -0500 Subject: TI Silent 700 model 733 manual In-Reply-To: <4A2783E1.5090803@sdu.se> References: <4A2783E1.5090803@sdu.se> Message-ID: <20090604113117.GG5509@n0jcf.net> I also have a 733 without cassette drives (is that a different model #)? It would be nice to have access to the service manual for it. It's been in an attic for about 10 yrs but I plan to bring it back to life real soon. Oh-- it has a 300 baud acoustic coupler on the side too :-) It's this one, http://www.digibarn.com/collections/systems/ti-tymshare-100/DSC02096.JPG mine is not Tymshare branded however. Chris On Thursday (06/04/2009 at 10:20AM +0200), Lars Hamren wrote: >> If I remember correctly, someone was looking for a TI 733 manual. > > That was me, a few weeks ago. > >> I found one today while sorting some boxes. > > Which manual did you find? > > I am looking for a service/repair manual. I already have > > "Model 733 ASR/KSR Operating Instructions, 959227-9701, Rev C" > > revised October 1974. > >> This is the large TI terminal, not the portable one. > > Mine is the large one with casette drives, pictured here: > > http://www.sdu.se/computer-automation-museum/pub/gallery/ti--silent-733-asr-with-casette-drives.jpg > > Thanks in advance > /Lars Hamr?n -- Chris Elmquist From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 06:44:52 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 07:44:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Question re: 8" drive form-factor In-Reply-To: <4A27336A.7050605@brouhaha.com> References: <4A27336A.7050605@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Jun 2009, Eric Smith wrote: > Steven Hirsch wrote: >> Here's a strange one: I recently acquired two Shugart 851 drives from >> another cctech-er. They were in nice shape and operate fine. The weird >> part is their form-factor. >> >> I have 8 or 10 other 8" drives in my collection, both half-height and >> full-height, including two other 851 Shugarts. All of these are 8.5" wide, >> with faceplate and frame being exactly the same size. >> >> These two "new" Shugart units are _9.5"_ wide at the faceplate and require >> a clearance of about 9-1/8" for the frame. Can anyone explain this odd >> sizing? Were they perhaps manufactured against an earlier standard? > > IIRC, the "R" suffix drives are intended to be rack-mounted in pairs. I have > no idea, though, how that could be better than using the standard-width > drives since either way they're going to need some mounting hardware. Nothing on these units indicates an "R" model, but your explanation makes sense. I'd expect there to be an obvious way to fasten the drives together along their common edge, but don't see anything that jumps out at me. Live and learn. If anyone has a particular need for this type of drive, let me know? A swap for one of the 8.5" wide units would be ideal. Steve -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 09:15:08 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 10:15:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Question re: 8" drive form-factor In-Reply-To: <4A27336A.7050605@brouhaha.com> References: <4A27336A.7050605@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 3 Jun 2009, Eric Smith wrote: > Steven Hirsch wrote: >> Here's a strange one: I recently acquired two Shugart 851 drives from >> another cctech-er. They were in nice shape and operate fine. The weird >> part is their form-factor. >> >> I have 8 or 10 other 8" drives in my collection, both half-height and >> full-height, including two other 851 Shugarts. All of these are 8.5" wide, >> with faceplate and frame being exactly the same size. >> >> These two "new" Shugart units are _9.5"_ wide at the faceplate and require >> a clearance of about 9-1/8" for the frame. Can anyone explain this odd >> sizing? Were they perhaps manufactured against an earlier standard? > > IIRC, the "R" suffix drives are intended to be rack-mounted in pairs. I have > no idea, though, how that could be better than using the standard-width > drives since either way they're going to need some mounting hardware. I found the OEM manual on bitsavers and it's actually the 'R' model that matches what I believed to the industry form-factor of 8.5" width. The "standard" (non-R) model is 9.5" wide. Odd standard, since I've never seen another 8" drive that size. Always something to learn! -- From dwbrown at tva.gov Thu Jun 4 09:21:21 2009 From: dwbrown at tva.gov (Brown, Dennis William) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 10:21:21 -0400 Subject: Free Mitsubishi MP 286L Message-ID: <9F1FF506EB0B6C4DB13BAADE8B53617306414572@TVACOCXVS1.main.tva.gov> Mitsubishi MP 286L, needs power cord. Free to good home. Local Pick-Up Only or You pay shipping costs. Soon to be recycled. Thanks, Denny Brown, P.E. Environmental Engineer TVA-Power Control Systems 1101 Market Street, SP4H-C Chattanooga, TN 37402 office: 423-751-2807 mobile: 423-605-8614 From tim at tim-mann.org Thu Jun 4 12:30:41 2009 From: tim at tim-mann.org (Tim Mann) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 10:30:41 -0700 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 70, Issue 6 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090604103041.65065c3a@venice.mumblefrotz.org> On Thu, 04 Jun 2009 04:57:20 -0500, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Has anyone read Dealers of Lightning: Xerox PARC and the Dawn of the > Computer Age ? ... > Anyone have any back stories or have read the book? I've got it on > order, but I've read some scathing reviews about how the author got it > wrong. I know some of the scathing reviews might be by people who > weren't described in a favorable light in the book --- but I've seen > plenty of technical stories get screwed up. I remember reading and enjoying Dealers of Lightning several years ago when it came out. I worked with some of the PARC folks at their next gig (DEC Systems Research Center, run by Bob Taylor), and I don't remember people there having major complaints about the book getting things wrong. Of course a book like this never gets everything right -- certainly not to everyone's satisfaction, since different people who experienced the same events don't see them the same way. -- Tim Mann tim at tim-mann.org http://tim-mann.org/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jun 4 15:27:14 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 16:27:14 -0400 Subject: For pickup: VAX-11/750 and RK07 In-Reply-To: References: <200906022258.53816.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200906022316.53813.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4A281FF5.6080005@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <3AFF39F3-C4CC-4DA6-A3D3-E4B6F733ABB9@neurotica.com> On Jun 4, 2009, at 3:52 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Indeed. 15 years ago, I was able to save the 11/750 from work, but > could not find room for a pair of RK07s and a pickup-truck-load of > RK07 cartridges. Those were good drives - easy to repair, decent > amount of storage for the day, fast. Just don't get your fingers > behind the ears on the voice coil during a power-down - those heads > snap back *fast*! (when the NiCd pack is good, that is). *SLAM!* Yes, I nearly got my finger caught in one of those. It's a shame you weren't able to grab those RK07s. They're pretty thin on the ground nowadays. I agree that they're really, really nice drives. > Someone just got a fun little system to play with. Hopefully we'll > hear what it's running and how it's loaded before too long. Did it go to someone here? If not, perhaps that person should be invited to join. That said...I've been sorta halfway thinking of starting a VAX-11 "registry" of sorts, as there aren't huge numbers of those machines left. They're not super-rare, I know, but there seem to be far fewer of them than, say, Kaypros. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jun 4 15:27:54 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 16:27:54 -0400 Subject: UNIX on PDP-11s (was Re: PDP 11/73 on the Internet) In-Reply-To: <4A281EAB.8050003@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4A280EFF.9020504@dunnington.plus.com> <51FE580A-8CB0-4651-A230-BE667C6DEA94@neurotica.com> <4A281EAB.8050003@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On Jun 4, 2009, at 3:21 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> Wasn't the MSCP driver backported from 2.11BSD to something >> earlier? Hmm, come to think of it, I think that was 2.9BSD, not V7. >> Hmm, MSCP on my PDP-11/24. 8-) > > Yes, with a high-speed RD52 for authenticity ;-) Ugh! But I must admit, I love the sounds RD52s make. :) Actually I was thinking more of an SDI-connected drive on a UDA50. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jun 4 15:29:33 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 16:29:33 -0400 Subject: UNIX on PDP-11s (was Re: PDP 11/73 on the Internet) In-Reply-To: References: <4A280EFF.9020504@dunnington.plus.com> <51FE580A-8CB0-4651-A230-BE667C6DEA94@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <435FC1BA-DAF7-49B4-A42C-4C44E6F695FD@neurotica.com> On Jun 4, 2009, at 3:17 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> Wasn't the MSCP driver backported from 2.11BSD to something >> earlier? Hmm, >> come to think of it, I think that was 2.9BSD, not V7. > > Yes. The MSCP driver was backported to 2.9BSD from 2.11BSD. I have > yet to give that a try, but I'm looking forward to it when I have time > to get back to that corner of the basement. Ahh yes, I thought I had seen something about that. Cool. >> Hmm, MSCP on my PDP-11/24. 8-) > > Yep. I have at least one UDA50 and more than one SDI disk. :-) Yummy. :-) I am looking for a (nearby) RA60, as I like them, and I have a number of packs. I had one about ten years ago, but I gave it away. It was in pretty bad shape and I don't know if it even worked. So if anyone in Florida or perhaps Georgia has an RA60 that they want gone, please let me know. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From vern4wright at yahoo.com Thu Jun 4 15:38:24 2009 From: vern4wright at yahoo.com (Vernon Wright) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 13:38:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: anyone read dealers of lightning? Message-ID: <642854.69741.qm@web65501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> > From: Rich Alderson > Subject: RE: anyone read dealers of lightning? > > If you enjoy reading [_Dealers of Lightning_], also > read Soul of a new > > Machine, its about the creation of Data General and I > think that was an > > even better read. > > De gustibus non disputandum.? However, _Soul_ is very > much NOT about "the > creation of Data General", which was incorporated in > 1968.? It is rather > about DG's effort, c. 1976, to get to market with a > so-called supermini, in > order to compete with DEC's VAX (which was under > development at the same > time). > > I first read _Soul_ as a serial in _Computerworld_ in the > summer of 1977, and > enjoyed it enough that I put it on my Christmas list (hey, > I was still in > grad school and had no money for extra books). Even so... I also read _Soul_ about the same time, and bought many copies (in paperback) to give to friends who would ask me "what is it that you techies do? and why?". I particularly thought his exposition of "signing up" for a project was the most valuable part of the book. Kidder either used to live here in San Diego, or still does. Anyway, I had never met him (odd, since I am a major collector of books as well as of all sorts of computers) until last year when he was giving a talk at the Central Library about _Mountains Beyond Mountains_ (a very affecting book in itself). I pulled out my last remaining copy of _Soul_ (paperback, someone walked off with the hardback) and took it down to have him sign it. He barely recalled the book that won him the National Book Award and the Pulitzer (OK, it HAS been 30 odd years) and told me that he had changed his approach to research and writing. But he kindly inscribed the book to me and went on to give a great talk about Dr. Paul Farmer (the subject of _Mountains_). It was a Very pleasant evening. Vern Wright From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 4 16:00:59 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 14:00:59 -0700 Subject: QIC cartridge tape compatibility In-Reply-To: References: <4A27AF5A.26193.FFC2AC9@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 4, 9 11:26:18 am, Message-ID: <4A27D39B.2383.1089C556@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Jun 2009 at 20:03, Tony Duell wrote: > The 9145 contains a 68000 CPU and some battery-backed RAM modules, > and alas some ASICs. One day I'll figure out something about it. Probably later than my Adic drive, then. It's got a 6800 and a 2716 EPROM with a 3M copyright sticker on it--one of several cards stacked up in a little card cage with backplane under and behind the tape area. If you stick a traditional DC300/600... tape in it, it spins it briefly before announcing with a loud buzz and LED that there's a fault condition. --Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Jun 4 16:10:24 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 22:10:24 +0100 Subject: Repairing an HP3421A (Signature Analysis) In-Reply-To: References: <2D41E9C369A84DFBAF7492485B01D79C@xp1800> Message-ID: <4A283840.9010300@philpem.me.uk> Dave McGuire wrote: > > And actual HP signature multimeters show up everywhere, and tend to be > cheap. Of course, if they're not cheap enough, you can always build a signature analyser out of a couple of LSTTL chips. If memory serves, the core of the HP 5004 analyser is an LS86 XOR, a pair of LS164 shift registers, and some logic to drive the displays. If you can live with having to do some hex -> signature-code conversions (it's basically a quick substitution of the letters from one to the other), then four TIL311s will work nicely as a display. If I didn't have any TIL311s to hand, I'd probably program an EPROM to do the conversion, and use a couple of 7-segment LED displays. Rik's right though, the May 1977 HPJ tells you just about all you really need to know to clone a HP signature analyser... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From rickb at bensene.com Thu Jun 4 16:15:58 2009 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 14:15:58 -0700 Subject: 8" Floppies In-Reply-To: <20090604113117.GG5509@n0jcf.net> References: <4A2783E1.5090803@sdu.se> <20090604113117.GG5509@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: Hello, all, I've got a batch of 30 brand new 8" Floppies that I can't figure out. They are hard-sectored disks. The weird part is that the index hole placement is strange on these disks. They don't work on my Altair 8" drives since the index sensor doesn't line up with the hole. On all of the other hard-sectored 8" floppies that I have, the index hole is punched such that it is nearly vertical with relationship to the spindle hole, meaning that if you draw a centerline through the spindle hole up toward the index hole, the center of the index hole will fall close to this line. On these particular group of floppies, the index hole is offset to the right of the centerline, perhaps four or five degrees so. Anyone know what these might be for? Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Thu Jun 4 16:27:13 2009 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 14:27:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Question on, A Historical Research Guide to the Microcomputer, 2nd Edition Message-ID: <959222.2752.qm@web112212.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Has anyone read this? Is it any good? http://www.lulu.com/content/159715 http://www.amazon.com/Historical-Research-Guide-Microcomputer-2nd/dp/1411646525 From leolists at seidkr.com Thu Jun 4 16:37:58 2009 From: leolists at seidkr.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Philip_Leonard_WV=D8T?=) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 16:37:58 -0500 Subject: IBM AS400 inquiry In-Reply-To: <60584.67.93.24.222.1244135148.squirrel@www.hawkmountain.net> References: <60584.67.93.24.222.1244135148.squirrel@www.hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <4A283EB6.80400@seidkr.com> rescue at hawkmountain.net wrote: > A friend of mine just obtained an AS400. > > It is a "9406-170 System S104V7NM Subsystem QCTL". > > I know nothing of AS400s. He did say it boots. > > So, what specs are this ? What does it run (OS ?, Apps ?), > and what can be done with it (he was originally going to use > it as an end table !!! until he found it actually booted). > > -- Curt > I have 3 AS/400's...um I mean iSeries. A 9406-500 and two 9406-730's. The 500 has some issues and will only come up into diagnostic mode. The two 730's are running OS/400 V5R3 and work well. Mine are all Heavy and Black (no beige here). http://www.findibm.com/as400/as400early.asp#170 - basic specs on the 170 Philip From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Jun 4 16:44:11 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 17:44:11 -0400 Subject: For pickup: VAX-11/750 and RK07 In-Reply-To: <1C03C1A4-6BA1-4DCE-965B-7AD5FE09F878@neurotica.com> References: <200906022258.53816.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4A281FF5.6080005@e-bbes.com> <1C03C1A4-6BA1-4DCE-965B-7AD5FE09F878@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200906041744.11150.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 04 June 2009, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jun 4, 2009, at 3:26 PM, e.stiebler wrote: > >> And, they've been claimed. > >> That was fast. > > > > Yes, I can imagine. I gave mine away, and now I'm missing it ;-) > > I did too, with both an 11/750 and an RK07. The RK07 was never > used on the 11/750, though. I regretted it for years. A few years > ago, though, John Wilson gave me a pair of RK07s (one of which > runs!), and last fall, I picked up an 11/750 from Patrick. Oddly enough, I'm giving up the 11/750 (the third or fourth that has gone through my hands), mostly because it's too small, and not nearly as interesting as my 11/780(s). :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Jun 4 16:46:40 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 14:46:40 -0700 Subject: anyone read dealers of lightning? References: <4A274C2E.6030705@verizon.net> <4A275CE6.9020103@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <4A2840C0.895325A2@cs.ubc.ca> Rich Alderson wrote: > > De gustibus non disputandum. However, _Soul_ is very much NOT about "the > creation of Data General", which was incorporated in 1968. It is rather > about DG's effort, c. 1976, to get to market with a so-called supermini, in > order to compete with DEC's VAX (which was under development at the same > time). Can someone acquainted with both machines weigh in with an opinion of how they compared in terms of performance and capability? Did the VAX win out because it was DEC (market prominence, etc.) or because in the main it was a better machine, or some other reason? (I used and programmed with 780's and 750's under both VMS and BSD in the 80's but never worked with DG machines.) From wmaddox at pacbell.net Thu Jun 4 16:52:47 2009 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 14:52:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 8" Floppies Message-ID: <948243.70489.qm@web82603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 6/4/09, Rick Bensene wrote: > I've got a batch of 30 brand new 8" Floppies that I can't > figure out. They are hard-sectored disks. > The weird part is that the index hole placement is strange > on these disks.? They are probably double-sided disks. The index hole sensor was offset on the double-sided drives to prevent the use of disks intended for singled-sided use only. --Bill From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 16:00:33 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 17:00:33 -0400 Subject: UNIX on PDP-11s (was Re: PDP 11/73 on the Internet) In-Reply-To: <435FC1BA-DAF7-49B4-A42C-4C44E6F695FD@neurotica.com> References: <4A280EFF.9020504@dunnington.plus.com> <51FE580A-8CB0-4651-A230-BE667C6DEA94@neurotica.com> <435FC1BA-DAF7-49B4-A42C-4C44E6F695FD@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 4:29 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > ?Yummy. :-) ?I am looking for a (nearby) RA60, as I like them, and I have a > number of packs. ?I had one about ten years ago, but I gave it away. ?It was > in pretty bad shape and I don't know if it even worked. When I left the RK07s behind in 1993, I also left an RA60 behind, too. It had too poor of a weight-to-MB ratio to rescue, so it stayed. I only ever had one pack for it, so it was essentially a fixed-pack drive in practice. Another victim was a VAX 8530. :-( I had no way to power it in a home environment. > ?So if anyone in Florida or perhaps Georgia has an RA60 that they want gone, > please let me know. :) That's far, far from me, and all I have is an RA60 pack in dubious shape (stored in a basement for 15 years). -ethan From steve at cosam.org Thu Jun 4 10:36:12 2009 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 17:36:12 +0200 Subject: TK50 tribulations In-Reply-To: <4A254655.5060909@e-bbes.com> References: <95838e090906020819v36d45508j4fa8f0a746c73c61@mail.gmail.com> <4A254655.5060909@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <95838e090906040836w26c33e56rf2a56958fa49b322@mail.gmail.com> 2009/6/2 e.stiebler : > Did you also clean the LEDs ? The tach ? Yep, the LEDs and what I presume are their "sensor" partners all got taken out for a good going over with alcohol. The tach appeared OK but I cleaned it too anyway. Something tells me the problem is along these lines though. I will check what they're up to. -- Steve Maddison http://www.cosam.org/ From slawmaster at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 09:51:06 2009 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 10:51:06 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <7d3530220906040751h634442c0h509459aff2e556f8@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 9:52 AM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > why would you ruin a perfectly good PDP with something as awful as BSD? > what's the point? > You're right, BSD is pretty awful. It would be better if he could run v7 UNIX. John -- "I've tried programming Ruby on Rails, following TechCrunch in my RSS reader, and drinking absinthe. It doesn't work. I'm going back to C, Hunter S. Thompson, and cheap whiskey." -- Ted Dziuba From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Thu Jun 4 17:10:43 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 15:10:43 -0700 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: <7d3530220906040751h634442c0h509459aff2e556f8@mail.gmail.com> References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> <7d3530220906040751h634442c0h509459aff2e556f8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5FF32105-0644-4399-98CB-2FD741B7C335@mail.msu.edu> On Jun 4, 2009, at 7:51 AM, John Floren wrote: > On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 9:52 AM, Dan Gahlinger > wrote: >> >> why would you ruin a perfectly good PDP with something as awful as >> BSD? >> what's the point? >> > > You're right, BSD is pretty awful. It would be better if he could > run v7 UNIX. > > John I'll try to get that running on the 11/40 once I work out the hardware issues :) Josh > > -- > "I've tried programming Ruby on Rails, following TechCrunch in my RSS > reader, and drinking absinthe. It doesn't work. I'm going back to C, > Hunter S. Thompson, and cheap whiskey." -- Ted Dziuba > From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 17:15:45 2009 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 15:15:45 -0700 Subject: anyone read dealers of lightning? In-Reply-To: <4A2840C0.895325A2@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4A274C2E.6030705@verizon.net> <4A275CE6.9020103@atarimuseum.com> <4A2840C0.895325A2@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 2:46 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Rich Alderson wrote: >> >> De gustibus non disputandum. ?However, _Soul_ is very much NOT about "the >> creation of Data General", which was incorporated in 1968. ?It is rather >> about DG's effort, c. 1976, to get to market with a so-called supermini, in >> order to compete with DEC's VAX (which was under development at the same >> time). > > Can someone acquainted with both machines weigh in with an opinion of how they > compared in terms of performance and capability? Did the VAX win out because it > was DEC (market prominence, etc.) or because in the main it was a better > machine, or some other reason? > > (I used and programmed with 780's and 750's under both VMS and BSD in the 80's > but never worked with DG machines.) I don't have nearly as much experience with VAXen as I do with DG machines, but I will say this (and please remember, I LOVE DG hardware and software)... VMS simply rocks IMHO. AOS/VS is a very cool OS, but doesn't hold much of a candle to VMS. I'll go crawl back in my hole now... :) Mark From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Jun 4 17:37:11 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 15:37:11 -0700 Subject: anyone read dealers of lightning? References: <4A274C2E.6030705@verizon.net> <4A275CE6.9020103@atarimuseum.com> <4A2840C0.895325A2@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4A284C98.90BFC358@cs.ubc.ca> Mark Davidson wrote: > > On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 2:46 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > Rich Alderson wrote: > >> > >> De gustibus non disputandum. ?However, _Soul_ is very much NOT about "the > >> creation of Data General", which was incorporated in 1968. ?It is rather > >> about DG's effort, c. 1976, to get to market with a so-called supermini, in > >> order to compete with DEC's VAX (which was under development at the same > >> time). > > > > Can someone acquainted with both machines weigh in with an opinion of how they > > compared in terms of performance and capability? Did the VAX win out because it > > was DEC (market prominence, etc.) or because in the main it was a better > > machine, or some other reason? > > > > (I used and programmed with 780's and 750's under both VMS and BSD in the 80's > > but never worked with DG machines.) > > I don't have nearly as much experience with VAXen as I do with DG > machines, but I will say this (and please remember, I LOVE DG hardware > and software)... VMS simply rocks IMHO. AOS/VS is a very cool OS, but > doesn't hold much of a candle to VMS. > > I'll go crawl back in my hole now... :) Well, the manufacturer operatings systems are another variable, perhaps another way of expressing the question would be: how would the machines compare if BSD had targetted the DG machine instead of the VAX? From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Jun 4 17:37:44 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 15:37:44 -0700 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 70, Issue 3 References: Message-ID: <4A284CB9.293FAAFE@cs.ubc.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > > If there were one thing about RS232 and (smart) modems that I wish had been > > differently, it would be that the hayes modem standard had permitted some > > technique to switch between data mode and control mode without having those 2 > > second guard periods. That was (is) so annoying waiting for dial-up software to > > get the modem into control mode. > > The point weas that the Smartmodem would work using only the TxD and RxD > data lines (it didn't use the control lines, simply because you couldn't > rely on them even existing on some RS232 interfaces) _and_ it could not > be fooled if the special sequence of characters to go to command mode > occured e.g. in a file download. It was assumed (I think quite > reasonably) that you'd not get the characters _and the pauses_ in a download. It's no mystery what the original point was. From hamren at sdu.se Thu Jun 4 17:36:48 2009 From: hamren at sdu.se (Lars Hamren) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 00:36:48 +0200 Subject: TI Silent 700 model 733 manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A284C80.9000900@sdu.se> > I also have a 733 without cassette drives (is that a different model #)? The model with the two cassette drives is the 733 ASR (Automatic Send/Receive) and the model without is the 733 KSR (Keyboard Send/Receive) > http://www.digibarn.com/collections/systems/ti-tymshare-100/DSC02096.JPG Is this really a 733? It does not look like one. According to the picture in my "Operating Instructions", the KSR looks identical to the ASR, except for the cassette driver, and it is not designed to be portable. But perhaps it's a 733 in a Tymshare carrying case. Does yours look virtually identical to the one on the picture? /Lars From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jun 4 14:15:24 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 15:15:24 -0400 Subject: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo In-Reply-To: References: <1244130173.3399.2.camel@elric> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 1:56 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> > Have you measured the voltage on the RS232 TxD pin in both cases? >> >> Tony is closest ;-) >> >> The USB serial adaptor only seems to put out a really tiny current. >> More than a few microamps (!) into a load makes it put out a train of > > In which case it's not even close to being RS232 compatible (I seem to > remmebr an input impedance of the order of kilohms being OK for RS232 > receivers). One wonders if the in-house product test was more rigorous than connecting two devices with a 2m cable and sending a few characters at 9600 bps, or more likely, the engineers said that the design as given wouldn't meet the formal spec without spending $0.25 on more robust components and were told to keep it cheap since it would probably work for most customers, or at least work well enough that few customers would return the item. >> spikes at about 20kHz more like a sawtooth wave, than nice neat pulses. > > Is it possible that the DC-DC converter is playing up? I asusme this > USB-RS"32 converter is powered from the 5V on the USB port so presumably > it contains some kinde of DC-DC converter to get RS232 levels, possible > inside a MAXnnnn IC.Perhaps that can't supply enough current to the drivers. The USB serial devices I've seen have been a 1-chip design - presumably USB, UART, and level converters all on one die, with a few discretes for the DC-DC converter. I don't remember seeing any separate Maxim devices in them. > I saw this years ago on the RS232 card in my Philip P850. That card had a > potted module on it to provide +/- 12 V (for 1488s) from the 5V logic > supply. Mione had failed (I assume dried up capacitors) and output some > interesting waveforms. The result, of course, was garbage on all the > RS232 outputs. We had something like that happen with our Qbus COMBOARDs when an early customer installed theirs into a Qbus backplane that didn't provide -15V (which is, ISTR, most of them). Things didn't make sense until we figured out the lack of negative voltage to the 1488s/1489s. Every Qboard after that had a DC-DC converter on it (and I still have dozens of those, new on the slab of foam). -ethan From chris at mainecoon.com Thu Jun 4 18:04:01 2009 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 16:04:01 -0700 Subject: anyone read dealers of lightning? In-Reply-To: <4A284C98.90BFC358@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4A274C2E.6030705@verizon.net> <4A275CE6.9020103@atarimuseum.com> <4A2840C0.895325A2@cs.ubc.ca> <4A284C98.90BFC358@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4A2852E1.4030800@mainecoon.com> Brent Hilpert wrote: > Well, the manufacturer operatings systems are another variable, perhaps another > way of expressing the question would be: how would the machines compare if BSD > had targetted the DG machine instead of the VAX? Interesting question, but a difficult one to answer. Both Eagle (MV) and VAX architectures had good and bad implementations, with (from an ISA standpoint) the VAX being decidedly the more CISC-ish of the two (the Eagle retaining a lot of the RISC-ish flavor of the original Nova and then Eclipse families). Somewhat to its detriment the Eagle retained the horrible Nova I/O bus (although in some cases several distinct instances of it), but eventually compensated by hanging relatively intelligent devices off of it. In the end targeting *nix to the Eagle was problematic because of the way that byte pointers work (or don't) relative to what was expected by C, making implementation of the language a great deal more difficult. It was eventually done, but it was decidedly a later arrival in the marketplace. I suspect a better apples-to-apples comparison might be the theoretical porting of Multics to each architecture. There, that should put the fox in with the chickens ;) -- Chris Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." From RichA at vulcan.com Thu Jun 4 18:36:32 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 16:36:32 -0700 Subject: anyone read dealers of lightning? In-Reply-To: References: <4A274C2E.6030705@verizon.net> <4A275CE6.9020103@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: From: Rich Alderson Sent: Thursday, June 04, 2009 12:26 PM > I first read _Soul_ as a serial in _Computerworld_ in the summer of 1977, > and enjoyed it enough that I put it on my Christmas list (hey, I was still > in grad school and had no money for extra books). Even so... Ha. No, I didn't. Summer of 1977 I was still in New Haven working on being a grad student there. I read it in 1981, when it was published, like anyone else. Some of the ECC bits aren't quite up to snuff, any longer, but the backing store eventually catches up. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell From steve at cosam.org Thu Jun 4 14:58:34 2009 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 21:58:34 +0200 Subject: SLU's backpanel for one BA11-SB box (PDP-11/23 PLUS) In-Reply-To: References: <8CBB3515F8A764F-1464-5F5@webmail-dh09.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <95838e090906041258l6317d370wbbb3f872aafa3663@mail.gmail.com> 2009/6/4 SPC : > You're right. I got one photo of the back side of one BA11-SB and it's > exactly as you describe it. Ah, I thought you had a BA11 and were going to put that in some kind of table-top enclosure which had the bulkhead holes in it. I must admit, I was kind of wondering what that was. Does the BA11 you're looking at have a cover? On mine, the cover is actually also what holds the thing in the rack; the chassis slides in from the front. > Options ? Doing some homebrew would be possible to replace the back cover > with one bulkhead of, perhaps, one BA23 :-) The BA23 panel is a very different shape, I'm afraid, and there's not an awful lot of clearance behind the BA11 panel for bulkheads. You might just get some to fit if you can fabricate a suitable panel. There may be enough room to mount some ports at the bottom of the BA11 panel if you remove the sliding adjustable parts. Or how about just building a couple of homemade adapters/cables? For example, an IDC connector at one end and a DE9 or DB25 at the other for the console. > And, of course, you can get one BA23. But I have the BA11 in mind (by now) > and I need to reuse some BA23 components. An actual BA23 is indeed very handy to have around. Which parts are you looking to reuse? -- Steve Maddison http://www.cosam.org/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jun 4 21:14:46 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 22:14:46 -0400 Subject: For pickup: VAX-11/750 and RK07 In-Reply-To: <200906041744.11150.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200906022258.53816.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4A281FF5.6080005@e-bbes.com> <1C03C1A4-6BA1-4DCE-965B-7AD5FE09F878@neurotica.com> <200906041744.11150.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <69ACC482-B9DB-4E57-9897-EA9FEE71796E@neurotica.com> On Jun 4, 2009, at 5:44 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >>>> And, they've been claimed. >>>> That was fast. >>> >>> Yes, I can imagine. I gave mine away, and now I'm missing it ;-) >> >> I did too, with both an 11/750 and an RK07. The RK07 was never >> used on the 11/750, though. I regretted it for years. A few years >> ago, though, John Wilson gave me a pair of RK07s (one of which >> runs!), and last fall, I picked up an 11/750 from Patrick. > > Oddly enough, I'm giving up the 11/750 (the third or fourth that has > gone through my hands), mostly because it's too small, and not nearly > as interesting as my 11/780(s). :) ROFL! -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From brain at jbrain.com Thu Jun 4 21:44:25 2009 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 21:44:25 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 70, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A288689.5010206@jbrain.com> Tony Duell wrote: > The point weas that the Smartmodem would work using only the TxD and RxD > data lines (it didn't use the control lines, simply because you couldn't > rely on them even existing on some RS232 interfaces) _and_ it could not > be fooled if the special sequence of characters to go to command mode > occured e.g. in a file download. It was assumed (I think quite > reasonably) that you'd not get the characters _and the pauses_ in a download. > It was a bear to properly emulate that sequence in tcpser, as many BBS systems used it to hang up: +++ ath0 in lieu of dropping DTR. I'm not quite sure I have it *exactly* emulated, but it must be close enough, as I never get bug reports on that aspect of it anymore. Jim From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Jun 4 23:00:20 2009 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 23:00:20 -0500 Subject: SLU's backpanel for one BA11-SB box (PDP-11/23 PLUS) References: <8CBB2FAC99914D2-B50-209A@WEBMAIL-MC20.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <023101c9e592$2552a950$c600a8c0@JWEST> It was written.... > You *could* build a custom ribbon cable to interface > the DZV11 / DHV11 / DHQ11 bulkheads to work with > the DEC standard 10-pin connectors, but it's easier > just to find the proper bulkheads. It is? Not in my world. I've been looking for bulkhead/cabkits for a couple DEC unibus multiport serial boards for eons. Still not found any! Jay From ragooman at comcast.net Thu Jun 4 23:18:21 2009 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 00:18:21 -0400 Subject: anyone read dealers of lightning? In-Reply-To: <4A2840C0.895325A2@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4A274C2E.6030705@verizon.net> <4A275CE6.9020103@atarimuseum.com> <4A2840C0.895325A2@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4A289C8D.5040201@comcast.net> Brent Hilpert wrote: > Rich Alderson wrote: > >> De gustibus non disputandum. However, _Soul_ is very much NOT about "the >> creation of Data General", which was incorporated in 1968. It is rather >> about DG's effort, c. 1976, to get to market with a so-called supermini, in >> order to compete with DEC's VAX (which was under development at the same >> time). >> > > Can someone acquainted with both machines weigh in with an opinion of how they > compared in terms of performance and capability? Did the VAX win out because it > was DEC (market prominence, etc.) or because in the main it was a better > machine, or some other reason? > > (I used and programmed with 780's and 750's under both VMS and BSD in the 80's > but never worked with DG machines.) The SEL Systems 32 series out performed both the Vax 11/780 and the MV8000(not released until '80) in the 70's. The Vax 11/780 was built _after_ the SEL Systems 32 series as well. =Dan [ S.E.L. = http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/computers_mini_sel.html ] From brianlanning at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 00:47:45 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 00:47:45 -0500 Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) Message-ID: <6dbe3c380906042247p488bb10ete9fa7d369fb304b0@mail.gmail.com> So I got around to hooking some things up and seeing what works. I have a quadra 700 with system 7.6 on it. I also had a 7 bay scsi enclosure lying around, a couple scsi hard drives, and a slot loading dvd drive. My goal here is first to get the quadra on the network so I can share files with it. Also, I'd like to be able to read CDs or DVDs from the quadra. Once one of those is successful, I plan to use ADT to transfer a prodos or apple 3.3 dos disk image to an apple 2gs over a serial cable, then create a bootable floppy for my 2e. :-P lol. It's looking like a fun project. I should note that I have zero floppy disks for the mac or apple 2e/2gs. So this is sort of a fun boot-strapping project to see if I can get there from here. Much to my surprise, the quadra 700 detected the two scsi hard drives and dvd drive. The quadra already had some scsi utilities and each of the drives show up. One of them has a mount button, but it refuses to mount a CD in the DVD drive. No surprise there I guess. Any idea how I can get the machine to mount a CD or DVD? I might have a termination problem. I have this black centronics thingy with the apple logo on it. It sort of looks like a terminator, but you can plug another centronics cable into the back of it, so I'm doubting it's a terminator. Networking doesn't seem to work. I get a light on the hub, but it doesn't seem interested in letting me get to the network. The machine has Timbuktu installed, but the open menu option is ghosted out. The info menu option works, but nothing is listed on the networking tab. I found this link: http://www.atpm.com/network/files/file_sharing.htm The menu options they talk about are missing. I have some applescript menu options somewhere else that talk about turning on file sharing, but they don't work either. I'm thinking I might need to reinstall the system software at some point. Any tips on how I can get this machine on the network? I suspect the floppy drive is bad. I put a new HD floppy in the drive. It detects it as a 1.4meg floppy disk, but formatting doesn't work. It claims the disk is bad. I have another drive in the IIfx that I might try swapping in to see if I can get the floppy drive working. I copied a dos file to the floppy as a test to see if I could get the mac to read it. No luck. It wants to format the disk. Any ideas on how I can be able to share floppies between the PC and mac? I know the mac drives are a little odd. fun stuff. From adam at adamandliz.com Fri Jun 5 01:28:16 2009 From: adam at adamandliz.com (Adam White) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 07:28:16 +0100 Subject: IBM AS400 inquiry In-Reply-To: <60584.67.93.24.222.1244135148.squirrel@www.hawkmountain.net> References: <60584.67.93.24.222.1244135148.squirrel@www.hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <4A28BB00.2050402@adamandliz.com> The AS/400, otherwise known as iSeries or System i5 (IBM do love their re-branding) run OS/400. What level I can't remember, but possibly only up to around V5R3 ish for this machine. It was borne out of the system/38 back in about 87 with a range of CICS machines, the 170 is a RISC powerpc machine that was nicknamed "invader". Designed by Dr Frank Soltis, these were the first machines to include an integrated database that conformed to Ted Codds Rules. I code on similar, although significantly bigger machines today for a top bank, and it runs a huge amount of the worlds banking systems. It is also very heavily used in manufacturing and distribution. Some people run apache on it and thus use it as a very secure web-server. There is a large amount of vendor software written for it such as SAP, Coda, JBA to name a few out of many. To actually connect and do something with it, you will need a 5250 emulator on your pc, I dare say it came with one such a Client Access, or there is as teast one free version available. VT100 emulation is possible, but it isn't great. A few commands you can try: WRKACTJOB - Work with active jobs WRKSPLF - Work withj spooled files PWRDWMSYS - Power it downwhen you've given up trying to work out how to use it STRPDM - Start programming development manager GO MAIN - go into the main menu where you can do lots of stuff withou knowing what commands to use CRTBNDRPG - create an RPG program CRTCLPGM - create a CL program there are thousands of commands....far to many to list here. To get coding you will need a source file. You program source will be a member in this file. To Create a library to put it in CRTLIB then press F4 To create a source file CRTSRCPF, press F4 and enter the details to create a source member STRPDM and then select option to work with members, put your file and library name in, then press F6 to create and off you go.... There are numerous web-sites around that says what it does and with code that can be downloaded. I suggest you do a little googling. Adam On 04/06/2009 18:05, rescue at hawkmountain.net wrote: > A friend of mine just obtained an AS400. > > It is a "9406-170 System S104V7NM Subsystem QCTL". > > I know nothing of AS400s. He did say it boots. > > So, what specs are this ? What does it run (OS ?, Apps ?), > and what can be done with it (he was originally going to use > it as an end table !!! until he found it actually booted). > > -- Curt > > From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Jun 5 01:37:44 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 23:37:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380906042247p488bb10ete9fa7d369fb304b0@mail.gmail.com> from Brian Lanning at "Jun 5, 9 00:47:45 am" Message-ID: <200906050637.n556bi9R029020@floodgap.com> > My goal here is first to get the quadra on the network so I can share > files with it. Also, I'd like to be able to read CDs or DVDs from the > quadra. Once one of those is successful, I plan to use ADT to > transfer a prodos or apple 3.3 dos disk image to an apple 2gs over a > serial cable, then create a bootable floppy for my 2e. :-P lol. > It's looking like a fun project. > > I should note that I have zero floppy disks for the mac or apple > 2e/2gs. So this is sort of a fun boot-strapping project to see if I > can get there from here. > > Much to my surprise, the quadra 700 detected the two scsi hard drives > and dvd drive. The quadra already had some scsi utilities and each of > the drives show up. One of them has a mount button, but it refuses to > mount a CD in the DVD drive. No surprise there I guess. Any idea how > I can get the machine to mount a CD or DVD? I might have a > termination problem. I have this black centronics thingy with the > apple logo on it. It sort of looks like a terminator, but you can > plug another centronics cable into the back of it, so I'm doubting > it's a terminator. Nope, that's a terminator, actually. The problem could be the file system, but if it's Mac OS 7.6, it should understand ISO 9660 as long as the standard extensions are there. The other problem is the drive. 7.6 probably won't recognize the DVD-ROM, and won't recognize many CD-ROMs unless they are Apple ROMmed or there are appropriate drivers. I use Apple-branded CD-ROMs with all my systems. > Networking doesn't seem to work. I get a light on the hub, but it > doesn't seem interested in letting me get to the network. AppleTalk or TCP/IP? Do you have a MacTCP control panel? TCP/IP? > I suspect the floppy drive is bad. I put a new HD floppy in the > drive. It detects it as a 1.4meg floppy disk, but formatting doesn't > work. It claims the disk is bad. I have another drive in the IIfx > that I might try swapping in to see if I can get the floppy drive > working. I copied a dos file to the floppy as a test to see if I > could get the mac to read it. No luck. It wants to format the disk. > Any ideas on how I can be able to share floppies between the PC and > mac? I know the mac drives are a little odd. Check that you have the File Exchange control panel installed, but this again should be a standard part of 7.6. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Die, v.: To stop sinning suddenly. -- Elbert Hubbard ----------------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Jun 5 01:42:14 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 23:42:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) In-Reply-To: <200906050637.n556bi9R029020@floodgap.com> from Cameron Kaiser at "Jun 4, 9 11:37:44 pm" Message-ID: <200906050642.n556gElb029694@floodgap.com> > Check that you have the File Exchange control panel installed, but this > again should be a standard part of 7.6. PC Exchange even. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Please dispose of this message in the usual manner. -- Mission: Impossible - From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jun 5 01:52:48 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 04 Jun 2009 23:52:48 -0700 Subject: Question re: 8" drive form-factor In-Reply-To: References: <4A27336A.7050605@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4A28C0C0.3060708@brouhaha.com> Steven Hirsch wrote: > I found the OEM manual on bitsavers and it's actually the 'R' model > that matches what I believed to the industry form-factor of 8.5" > width. The "standard" (non-R) model is 9.5" wide. Odd standard, > since I've never seen another 8" drive that size. Ah, that was it. They made the "R" model narrower to make it easier to fit them side by side in a rack. I'm guessing that the 9.5" size might match the size of the genuine IBM 33FD, 43FD, or 53FD drives. Although I have some 53FD drives, I've never taken them out of the equipment they're installed in, so I haven't had occasion to measure their dimensions. Eric From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Jun 5 02:03:36 2009 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 09:03:36 +0200 Subject: More vintage hardware still alive and kickin' In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090605070336.GA15143@Update.UU.SE> On Thu, Jun 04, 2009 at 03:41:45PM +0000, Mike Ross wrote: > > Enjoy > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RCgIrZiC6c > Thanks for sharing. I saw one of those at a museum here in Sweden, and even after watching yours run, I wonder how they work. /P From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jun 5 02:16:59 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 00:16:59 -0700 Subject: 8" Floppies In-Reply-To: References: <4A2783E1.5090803@sdu.se> <20090604113117.GG5509@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <4A28C66B.6090306@brouhaha.com> Rick Bensene wrote: > I've got a batch of 30 brand new 8" Floppies that I can't figure out. > They are hard-sectored disks. > The weird part is that the index hole placement is strange on these > disks. > > They don't work on my Altair 8" drives since the index sensor doesn't > line up with the hole. > They're double-sided disks. Not too uncommon. If you want to see some really strange 8" floppy disks, I have a box of Memorex disks that are hard-sectored and have the sector/index hole near the outer edge of the disk, rather than near the rim. IBM used an outer-edge index hole on the very first floppy drive, the Minnow (23FD), which was a read-only drive used for microcode storage. Minnow only stored about 80KB and spun at 90 RPM (vs. 360 for "modern" 8-inch floppy drives). The 23FD drive and media were not offered as separate products. Memorex introduced the first commercially-sold 8" read/write floppy drive, the 650, and later a 651 with faster seek times. These were hard-sectored and had the sector/index hole near the outer edge, and spun at 375 RPM. I don't know whether the diskettes used by the Memorex 65x drives were interchangeable with Minnow disks, but my box of Memorex disks were presumably for the Memorex 65x drive. I've heard that the 65x drive was used in some early word processing systems. Eric From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Fri Jun 5 04:00:35 2009 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 11:00:35 +0200 Subject: For pickup: VAX-11/750 and RK07 In-Reply-To: <3AFF39F3-C4CC-4DA6-A3D3-E4B6F733ABB9@neurotica.com> References: <200906022258.53816.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200906022316.53813.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4A281FF5.6080005@e-bbes.com> <3AFF39F3-C4CC-4DA6-A3D3-E4B6F733ABB9@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20090605090034.GI32351@lug-owl.de> On Thu, 2009-06-04 16:27:14 -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > > That said...I've been sorta halfway thinking of starting a VAX-11 > "registry" of sorts, as there aren't huge numbers of those machines > left. They're not super-rare, I know, but there seem to be far fewer of > them than, say, Kaypros. Unfortunately, I only have a 6320. But if anybody wants to get rid of their VAX gear (anything sized from VXT to 9000, maybe with the exception of the most common 4000/60, /90 and /90A models), I'll give them a good, new home! MfG, JBG -- Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481 Signature of: Wenn ich wach bin, tr?ume ich. the second : From brianlanning at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 06:27:58 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 06:27:58 -0500 Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) In-Reply-To: <200906050642.n556gElb029694@floodgap.com> References: <200906050637.n556bi9R029020@floodgap.com> <200906050642.n556gElb029694@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380906050427o7d85750epdf87fcf181a31d32@mail.gmail.com> I saw file exchange and pc exchange in there, but I couldn't manage to make either of them work. I'll focus on them tonight. On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 1:42 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Check that you have the File Exchange control panel installed, but this >> again should be a standard part of 7.6. > > PC Exchange even. > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > ?Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- Please dispose of this message in the usual manner. -- Mission: Impossible - > From spedraja at ono.com Fri Jun 5 06:54:04 2009 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 13:54:04 +0200 Subject: UNIX on PDP-11s In-Reply-To: <4A28DB3F.8050000@softjar.se> References: <4A28DB3F.8050000@softjar.se> Message-ID: > > I'd look at the 7th Ed. sources and the install process to see what >> 7th Ed. is expecting to load onto. >> > > You need to rewrite things. There is no way you can get something written > for the Unibus, and large memory, work on a q-bus without rewriting some > stuff. > I suggest to begin by this: http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/PDP-11/Distributions/other/Tim_Shoppa_v6/README ... and later by this: http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/PDP-11/Distributions/other/Tim_Shoppa_v6/ Not the 'official' thing but a good point to begin. In fact is what I'm preparing for my PDP-11/23 PLUS Regards Sergio From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Jun 5 08:27:23 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 06:27:23 -0700 Subject: Question re: 8" drive form-factor In-Reply-To: <4A28C0C0.3060708@brouhaha.com> References: <4A27336A.7050605@brouhaha.com> <4A28C0C0.3060708@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 23:52:48 -0700 > From: eric at brouhaha.com > To: > Subject: Re: Question re: 8" drive form-factor > > Steven Hirsch wrote: >> I found the OEM manual on bitsavers and it's actually the 'R' model >> that matches what I believed to the industry form-factor of 8.5" >> width. The "standard" (non-R) model is 9.5" wide. Odd standard, >> since I've never seen another 8" drive that size. > Ah, that was it. They made the "R" model narrower to make it easier to > fit them side by side in a rack. > > I'm guessing that the 9.5" size might match the size of the genuine IBM > 33FD, 43FD, or 53FD drives. Although I have some 53FD drives, I've > never taken them out of the equipment they're installed in, so I haven't > had occasion to measure their dimensions. > > Eric > Hi I have both form factors in the 800 models and 900 modles as well so it was used before the 851s. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail? has ever-growing storage! Don?t worry about storage limits. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/Storage?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_Storage_062009 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Jun 5 08:32:08 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 06:32:08 -0700 Subject: 8" Floppies In-Reply-To: <4A28C66B.6090306@brouhaha.com> References: <4A2783E1.5090803@sdu.se> <20090604113117.GG5509@n0jcf.net> <4A28C66B.6090306@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 00:16:59 -0700 > From: eric at brouhaha.com > To: > Subject: Re: 8" Floppies > > Rick Bensene wrote: >> I've got a batch of 30 brand new 8" Floppies that I can't figure out. >> They are hard-sectored disks. >> The weird part is that the index hole placement is strange on these >> disks. >> >> They don't work on my Altair 8" drives since the index sensor doesn't >> line up with the hole. >> > They're double-sided disks. Not too uncommon. If you want to see some > really strange 8" floppy disks, I have a box of Memorex disks that are > hard-sectored and have the sector/index hole near the outer edge of the > disk, rather than near the rim. > > IBM used an outer-edge index hole on the very first floppy drive, the > Minnow (23FD), which was a read-only drive used for microcode storage. > Minnow only stored about 80KB and spun at 90 RPM (vs. 360 for "modern" > 8-inch floppy drives). The 23FD drive and media were not offered as > separate products. > > Memorex introduced the first commercially-sold 8" read/write floppy > drive, the 650, and later a 651 with faster seek times. These were > hard-sectored and had the sector/index hole near the outer edge, and > spun at 375 RPM. I don't know whether the diskettes used by the Memorex > 65x drives were interchangeable with Minnow disks, but my box of Memorex > disks were presumably for the Memorex 65x drive. I've heard that the > 65x drive was used in some early word processing systems. > > Eric > Hi If he wants to use them, just get a hand hole punch. Slip a piece of thin cardboard between the envelop and the disk then slide the punch in and put the hole where you'd like. The cardboard will protect the disk while punching. I admit to doing it myself. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_BR_life_in_synch_062009 From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Fri Jun 5 08:40:23 2009 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 06:40:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) Message-ID: <608471.68192.qm@web112209.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I don't have this anymore other wise I would send it to you but if you can find a copy of FWB Hard Disk Tool Kit.. It will help you mount pretty much anything. It will handle the CD-ROM problem.. FWB is no longer is business but the software is the best. You wont be able to mount DVDs on 7.6.. I think I was up to 9.2 before I got a DVD drive.. I do recommend getting an Apple CD ROM because if you want to upgrade the OS from a CD you will need a bootable CD ROM drive and those are the best. From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Fri Jun 5 08:45:06 2009 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 06:45:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for a Wameco CPU card for a QM-1A Message-ID: <871580.50422.qm@web112221.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I got my hands on a nice Wameco QM-1A board Here is a pic: http://lh6.ggpht.com/_gUrHnv1nh-4/ShtCKBhWr6I/AAAAAAAAAh4/K-86gLf7Nl4/s720/IMG_1614.JPG I am looking for a CPU card for this. If someone has one that they don't want and is reasonable please let me know. Please contact me off-list. Thanks From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jun 5 08:50:21 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 06:50:21 -0700 Subject: 8" Floppies In-Reply-To: <4A28C66B.6090306@brouhaha.com> References: <4A2783E1.5090803@sdu.se> <20090604113117.GG5509@n0jcf.net> <4A28C66B.6090306@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4A29229D.7000705@bitsavers.org> Eric Smith wrote: > Memorex introduced the first commercially-sold 8" read/write floppy > drive, the 650, and later a 651 with faster seek times. These were > hard-sectored and had the sector/index hole near the outer edge, and > spun at 375 RPM. I don't know whether the diskettes used by the Memorex > 65x drives were interchangeable with Minnow disks, but my box of Memorex > disks were presumably for the Memorex 65x drive. I've heard that the > 65x drive was used in some early word processing systems. > They were also sold by AED in the 2500 floppy disc subsystem. Burroughs also used this style floppy. There is a notch in the outer case on those. From brianlanning at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 09:12:28 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 09:12:28 -0500 Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) In-Reply-To: <200906050637.n556bi9R029020@floodgap.com> References: <6dbe3c380906042247p488bb10ete9fa7d369fb304b0@mail.gmail.com> <200906050637.n556bi9R029020@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380906050712h3ca6570bw80e7260bb4ec318e@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 1:37 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Nope, that's a terminator, actually. The problem could be the file system, > but if it's Mac OS 7.6, it should understand ISO 9660 as long as the > standard extensions are there. > The other problem is the drive. 7.6 probably won't recognize the DVD-ROM, > and won't recognize many CD-ROMs unless they are Apple ROMmed or there are > appropriate drivers. I use Apple-branded CD-ROMs with all my systems. It's actually a copy of windows xp I had sitting in another machine. So it should be ISO9660. Maybe the mac won't read it out of principle. ;-) I had originally planned to use this scsi box with my amiga which isn't so hardware-picky. I've been wanting to get one of those external apple-branded cdrom drives so maybe I should start shopping for one of those. >> Networking doesn't seem to work. ?I get a light on the hub, but it >> doesn't seem interested in letting me get to the network. > > AppleTalk or TCP/IP? Do you have a MacTCP control panel? TCP/IP? tcp/ip. MacTCP looks like it's there, but again, it doesn't seem to work. I'll send out an exact error message and a description of what I'm doing tonight. > Check that you have the File Exchange control panel installed, but this > again should be a standard part of 7.6. I'll play with that it more tonight. brian From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jun 5 09:23:53 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 07:23:53 -0700 Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380906050712h3ca6570bw80e7260bb4ec318e@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380906042247p488bb10ete9fa7d369fb304b0@mail.gmail.com> <200906050637.n556bi9R029020@floodgap.com> <6dbe3c380906050712h3ca6570bw80e7260bb4ec318e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A292A79.7060901@bitsavers.org> Brian Lanning wrote: > It's actually a copy of windows xp I had sitting in another machine. > So it should be ISO9660. Maybe the mac won't read it out of > principle. ;-) > Correct. The principle being MAC OS doesn't know anything about NTFS. From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Fri Jun 5 09:29:46 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 11:29:46 -0300 Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) References: <6dbe3c380906042247p488bb10ete9fa7d369fb304b0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <31f401c9e5eb$b2dd69a0$0dce19bb@desktaba> > I should note that I have zero floppy disks for the mac or apple > 2e/2gs. So this is sort of a fun boot-strapping project to see if I > can get there from here. There are utilities you can type (yes!) on an apple and transfer floppy image files to disk. Lots of people do that for floppy creation when they have nothing, and no apple user around. You just need a null-modem cable and a serial board on the apple. From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Jun 5 09:50:46 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 07:50:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380906050712h3ca6570bw80e7260bb4ec318e@mail.gmail.com> from Brian Lanning at "Jun 5, 9 09:12:28 am" Message-ID: <200906051450.n55Eok6u024248@floodgap.com> > I had originally planned to use this scsi box with my amiga which > isn't so hardware-picky. I've been wanting to get one of those > external apple-branded cdrom drives so maybe I should start shopping > for one of those. Yes, you should. It will solve a lot of problems. > >> Networking doesn't seem to work. _I get a light on the hub, but it > >> doesn't seem interested in letting me get to the network. > > > > AppleTalk or TCP/IP? Do you have a MacTCP control panel? TCP/IP? > > tcp/ip. MacTCP looks like it's there, but again, it doesn't seem to > work. I'll send out an exact error message and a description of what > I'm doing tonight. You should see (the Q700 has built-in Ethernet IIRC) something like LocalTalk and the built-in Ethernet. Select Ethernet in MacTCP, and click More... if you want to adjust things like subnet mask and so on. If you are using an ENet card in one of the NuBus slots, make sure you have a driver for it. I would just use the built-in ENet; AAUI connectors are dirt-cheap and common as, well, dirt. > > Check that you have the File Exchange control panel installed, but this > > again should be a standard part of 7.6. > > I'll play with that it more tonight. You mentioned in your message that PC/File Exchange were all installed. When you select them from the Control Panels, no error? Otherwise, yeah, I suspect the floppy drive. The auto-inject drives are all getting long in the tooth. A thorough cleaning would be a good start. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Born free. Taxed to death. ------------------------------------------------- From brianlanning at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 09:57:17 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 09:57:17 -0500 Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) In-Reply-To: <31f401c9e5eb$b2dd69a0$0dce19bb@desktaba> References: <6dbe3c380906042247p488bb10ete9fa7d369fb304b0@mail.gmail.com> <31f401c9e5eb$b2dd69a0$0dce19bb@desktaba> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380906050757x1d2624c3wfdf0a0b053418b8b@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 9:29 AM, Alexandre Souza wrote: >> I should note that I have zero floppy disks for the mac or apple >> 2e/2gs. ?So this is sort of a fun boot-strapping project to see if I >> can get there from here. > > ? There are utilities you can type (yes!) on an apple and transfer floppy > image files to disk. Lots of people do that for floppy creation when they > have nothing, and no apple user around. You just need a null-modem cable and > a serial board on the apple. I found this thing called ADT that does what you describe. You point it at a disk image on a mac or PC (if you have the right cable) and type IN#2 on the 2e or 2gs, then it does what you describe. It looks like it does a call-151 then types in a bunch of binary that represents the entire OS. lol That's my goal. But I need ADT and 2e disk images on the mac first. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Jun 5 10:21:19 2009 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 17:21:19 +0200 Subject: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo In-Reply-To: References: <1244130173.3399.2.camel@elric> Message-ID: <20090605172119.06cd9734.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 4 Jun 2009 15:15:24 -0400 Ethan Dicks wrote: > We had something like that happen with our Qbus COMBOARDs when an > early customer installed theirs into a Qbus backplane that didn't > provide -15V (which is, ISTR, most of them). Things didn't make sense > until we figured out the lack of negative voltage to the 1488s/1489s. > Every Qboard after that had a DC-DC converter on it (and I still have > dozens of those, new on the slab of foam). Even DEC did it. The, IIRC, DHV11 QBus 8 line RS232 has a DC-DC converter on it. I saw several DHV11 where the poted torroidal inductivity of this discrete DC-DC converter was ripped of the PCB. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From brianlanning at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 10:22:28 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 10:22:28 -0500 Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) In-Reply-To: <200906051450.n55Eok6u024248@floodgap.com> References: <6dbe3c380906050712h3ca6570bw80e7260bb4ec318e@mail.gmail.com> <200906051450.n55Eok6u024248@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380906050822x2d30a1bx7fa7a2ea33a3dd28@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 9:50 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> tcp/ip. ?MacTCP looks like it's there, but again, it doesn't seem to >> work. ?I'll send out an exact error message and a description of what >> I'm doing tonight. > > You should see (the Q700 has built-in Ethernet IIRC) something like > LocalTalk and the built-in Ethernet. Select Ethernet in MacTCP, and click > More... if you want to adjust things like subnet mask and so on. > If you are using an ENet card in one of the NuBus slots, make sure you > have a driver for it. I would just use the built-in ENet; AAUI connectors > are dirt-cheap and common as, well, dirt. I have the AAUI connector. I'm thinking it's working since I get a light on the hub. I was able to switch it from appletalk to tcp/ip and set it to dhcp, but it looks like it didn't even try to ask for an ip address. >> > Check that you have the File Exchange control panel installed, but this >> > again should be a standard part of 7.6. >> >> I'll play with that it more tonight. > > You mentioned in your message that PC/File Exchange were all installed. > When you select them from the Control Panels, no error?\ I tried 100 different things last night and can't remember the details now. Some items weren't on the control panel at all. Others were there, but would complain that the application necessary to run the thing wasn't there. Others complained that they weren't installed correctly. I'll post details tonight. > Otherwise, yeah, I suspect the floppy drive. The auto-inject drives are all > getting long in the tooth. A thorough cleaning would be a good start. It's a little rickety. When I put the disk in, it doesn't drop onto the spindle and engage entirely. I have to put a screwdriver and push down on the disk (push to the right) to get the drive to notice the disk. I blew it out with compressed air when I first got it, but it's probably full of crud and probably has dirty heads. brian From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 10:32:15 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 11:32:15 -0400 Subject: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo In-Reply-To: <20090605172119.06cd9734.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <1244130173.3399.2.camel@elric> <20090605172119.06cd9734.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 11:21 AM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Thu, 4 Jun 2009 15:15:24 -0400 > Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> We had something like that happen with our Qbus COMBOARDs when an >> early customer installed theirs into a Qbus backplane that didn't >> provide -15V (which is, ISTR, most of them). ?Things didn't make sense >> until we figured out the lack of negative voltage to the 1488s/1489s. >> Every Qboard after that had a DC-DC converter on it (and I still have >> dozens of those, new on the slab of foam). > Even DEC did it. The, IIRC, DHV11 QBus 8 line RS232 has a DC-DC > converter on it. I saw several DHV11 where the poted torroidal > inductivity of this discrete DC-DC converter was ripped of the PCB. I think our issue (and maybe DEC's as well), is that old (16 bit?) Qbus backplanes provided -15V, but not the BA23 and newer. I might be mistaken, but we did start Qbus product development before we had a MicroVAX-I on site. We tested with a 4-slot LSI-11 box (and the Fluke 9010A I was talking about last week) for initial functional testing (CSR bits, DMA, local RAM/ROM, etc.) I do remember that the Rev 0 board had a DC-DC converter attached in dead-bug mode. -ethan From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Fri Jun 5 11:32:24 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 13:32:24 -0300 Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) References: <6dbe3c380906042247p488bb10ete9fa7d369fb304b0@mail.gmail.com><31f401c9e5eb$b2dd69a0$0dce19bb@desktaba> <6dbe3c380906050757x1d2624c3wfdf0a0b053418b8b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <33e601c9e5fb$71d58360$0dce19bb@desktaba> >I found this thing called ADT that does what you describe. You point >it at a disk image on a mac or PC (if you have the right cable) and >type IN#2 on the 2e or 2gs, then it does what you describe. It looks >like it does a call-151 then types in a bunch of binary that >represents the entire OS. lol That's my goal. But I need ADT and 2e >disk images on the mac first. Disk images are easy to spot by, and why not use a PC? From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Fri Jun 5 11:36:45 2009 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 12:36:45 -0400 Subject: receptacles (was IBM 029 Keypunch has arrived) In-Reply-To: <4A263676.17879.A3BCEF5@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4A2534D4.27037.64D5D1E@cclist.sydex.com>, <4A2695D8.2040701@sbcglobal.net> <4A263676.17879.A3BCEF5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4A29499D.30006@sbcglobal.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 3 Jun 2009 at 11:25, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > >> Thanks... I'll have to pass this to my person inside Hubbell to see >> if >> they have something like this. I like it. > > There's also a shallow box offered for it that makes for a very neat > surface-mount or extension-cord type use. > > --Chuck > > > Here's what we found from Hubbell: (Caution: Line wrap) http://www.hubbellcatalog.com/wiring/section-a-ss.asp?FAM=Straight_Blade&P=199,264,7660,7691,7996,7997,8000,8001,8003,8004,8005,8007,8008,8011,8017,8020,8021,8036,13462,13467,13469,13470,13474,28883,28884,28885,28886,28887,373,933,979,1096,1214,1220,1351,1526,1543,4943,7604,7605 Or go to: http://www.hubbellcatalog.com/wiring/part_search.asp?SRCH=hbl415i&sType=TXT (search results from the Hubbell catalog) Also: http://www.hubbell-wiring.com/ -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ "From there to here, From here to there, Funny things are everywhere." --- Dr. Seuss From brianlanning at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 11:42:24 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 11:42:24 -0500 Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) In-Reply-To: <33e601c9e5fb$71d58360$0dce19bb@desktaba> References: <6dbe3c380906042247p488bb10ete9fa7d369fb304b0@mail.gmail.com> <31f401c9e5eb$b2dd69a0$0dce19bb@desktaba> <6dbe3c380906050757x1d2624c3wfdf0a0b053418b8b@mail.gmail.com> <33e601c9e5fb$71d58360$0dce19bb@desktaba> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380906050942w23c3381fn7c25e0c931677d20@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 11:32 AM, Alexandre Souza wrote: >> I found this thing called ADT that does what you describe. ?You point >> it at a disk image on a mac or PC (if you have the right cable) and >> type IN#2 on the 2e or 2gs, then it does what you describe. ?It looks >> like it does a call-151 then types in a bunch of binary that >> represents the entire OS. ?lol ?That's my goal. ?But I need ADT and 2e >> disk images on the mac first. > > > ? Disk images are easy to spot by, and why not use a PC? Can I write mac or apple 2gs floppies with a PC floppy drive? I don't have the right serial cable to go from the PC right to the mac or 2gs, but I know there's a version of ADT for the PC. And I wanted to get the mac going anyway. From ray at arachelian.com Fri Jun 5 12:03:59 2009 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 13:03:59 -0400 Subject: anyone read dealers of lightning? In-Reply-To: References: <4A274C2E.6030705@verizon.net> <4A275CE6.9020103@atarimuseum.com> <4A27602D.4090504@snarc.net> Message-ID: <4A294FFF.8070301@arachelian.com> Mark Davidson wrote: > Oh no, I have to agree with Curt... Soul Of A New Machine is a great > read, as was Dealers. Of course, I'm a huge DG fan so I'm probably > biased a bit. ;) > I'm not specifically a DG fan and I've enjoyed Soul of a New Machine quite a bit. :-) So there's another data point. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 09:09:14 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 10:09:14 -0400 Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) In-Reply-To: <608471.68192.qm@web112209.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> References: <608471.68192.qm@web112209.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 9:40 AM, Christian Liendo wrote: > I don't have this anymore other wise I would send it to you but if you can find a copy of FWB Hard Disk Tool Kit.. It will help you mount pretty much anything. It will handle the CD-ROM problem.. FWB is no longer is business but the software is the best. I remember always using the FWB Toolkit in the 6.x and 7.x days. I got a copy with a Reno external CD-ROM drive/portable audio drive (the disc transport detached from the SCSI base). > You wont be able to mount DVDs on 7.6.. > I think I was up to 9.2 before I got a DVD drive.. I don't have specific datapoints, but that sounds about right. You _might_ be able to use a DVD-R with 8.x, but I can't recall for certain. > I do recommend getting an Apple CD ROM because if you want to upgrade the OS from a CD you will need a bootable CD ROM drive and those are the best. ISTR you can use a Sun CD-ROM drive, too, because of the 512-bytes-per-block mode, but that may be a fuzzy memory (I'm reasonably certain you can install Solaris on old Sun gear with a bootable Apple drive). What I don't recall is if the CD-ROM drive needs to merely support 512-b-p-b mode by responding to a specific SCSI packet, or if it has to default to 512-b-p-b mode at power-on (old Suns won't send the packet, but newer ones will, which is why I'm a little fuzzy with that level of detail off the top of my head - all of this has been hashed and rehashed, so if I personally were setting something up, I'd start googling about bootable CD-ROM drives to refresh my memory). -ethan From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Jun 5 12:07:01 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 10:07:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380906050942w23c3381fn7c25e0c931677d20@mail.gmail.com> from Brian Lanning at "Jun 5, 9 11:42:24 am" Message-ID: <200906051707.n55H71V6027578@floodgap.com> > Can I write mac or apple 2gs floppies with a PC floppy drive? If you have a raw disk image, sure. Only the original GCR disks cannot be written that way, but the later MFM disks (of which the Q700 can most definitely read) can be done with a PC from an image. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- require "std_disclaimer.pl"; ----------------------------------------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Jun 5 12:11:22 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 10:11:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380906050822x2d30a1bx7fa7a2ea33a3dd28@mail.gmail.com> from Brian Lanning at "Jun 5, 9 10:22:28 am" Message-ID: <200906051711.n55HBMVg022112@floodgap.com> > > You should see (the Q700 has built-in Ethernet IIRC) something like > > LocalTalk and the built-in Ethernet. Select Ethernet in MacTCP, and click > > More... if you want to adjust things like subnet mask and so on. > > If you are using an ENet card in one of the NuBus slots, make sure you > > have a driver for it. I would just use the built-in ENet; AAUI connectors > > are dirt-cheap and common as, well, dirt. > > I have the AAUI connector. I'm thinking it's working since I get a > light on the hub. I was able to switch it from appletalk to tcp/ip > and set it to dhcp, but it looks like it didn't even try to ask for an > ip address. I've never used MacTCP for DHCP. Assign it a static address first and see how far you get. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Dread each day as it comes. -- Donald Kaul --------------------------------- From brianlanning at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 12:13:48 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 12:13:48 -0500 Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) In-Reply-To: <200906051707.n55H71V6027578@floodgap.com> References: <6dbe3c380906050942w23c3381fn7c25e0c931677d20@mail.gmail.com> <200906051707.n55H71V6027578@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380906051013v1604a59brb6d3240b1aeff42d@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 12:07 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Can I write mac or apple 2gs floppies with a PC floppy drive? > > If you have a raw disk image, sure. Only the original GCR disks cannot > be written that way, but the later MFM disks (of which the Q700 can most > definitely read) can be done with a PC from an image. !!! Got a link to some software to do this? Also, does it need to be through the floppy disk controller or can I do this with a usb floppy drive? I was under the impression that mac floppy drives used some sort of variable speed voodoo that made them incompatible with PCs. brian From brianlanning at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 12:15:48 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 12:15:48 -0500 Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) In-Reply-To: <200906051711.n55HBMVg022112@floodgap.com> References: <6dbe3c380906050822x2d30a1bx7fa7a2ea33a3dd28@mail.gmail.com> <200906051711.n55HBMVg022112@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380906051015h519bf7f2ue91d5c17ad709bd5@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 12:11 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> > You should see (the Q700 has built-in Ethernet IIRC) something like >> > LocalTalk and the built-in Ethernet. Select Ethernet in MacTCP, and click >> > More... if you want to adjust things like subnet mask and so on. >> > If you are using an ENet card in one of the NuBus slots, make sure you >> > have a driver for it. I would just use the built-in ENet; AAUI connectors >> > are dirt-cheap and common as, well, dirt. >> >> I have the AAUI connector. I'm thinking it's working since I get a >> light on the hub. ?I was able to switch it from appletalk to tcp/ip >> and set it to dhcp, but it looks like it didn't even try to ask for an >> ip address. > > I've never used MacTCP for DHCP. Assign it a static address first and > see how far you get. ok. I'm lost without a command line. Is there a version of ping in there somewhere? What about samba/windows shares or maybe ftp? brian From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Jun 5 12:22:18 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 10:22:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380906051013v1604a59brb6d3240b1aeff42d@mail.gmail.com> from Brian Lanning at "Jun 5, 9 12:13:48 pm" Message-ID: <200906051722.n55HMIZq013208@floodgap.com> > > > Can I write mac or apple 2gs floppies with a PC floppy drive? > > > > If you have a raw disk image, sure. Only the original GCR disks cannot > > be written that way, but the later MFM disks (of which the Q700 can most > > definitely read) can be done with a PC from an image. > > !!! > Got a link to some software to do this? Well, rawrite, anything like that :) > through the floppy disk controller or can I do this with a usb floppy > drive? Depends on the program. I've only ever done this with an internal FDC drive but I don't see a reason why an external USB wouldn't work. > I was under the impression that mac floppy drives used some sort of > variable speed voodoo that made them incompatible with PCs. Not the (more) current MFM disks. The original GCR disks above do indeed use a variable speed system and cannot be written by conventional PC drives. However, the later MFM disks and "SuperDrives" (not to be confused with Apple's contemporary use of the term) are bog standard except for the HFS. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- When in doubt, take a pawn. -- Mission: Impossible ("Crack-Up") ------------ From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Fri Jun 5 12:26:02 2009 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 10:26:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) Message-ID: <434756.14208.qm@web112204.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> nope... you need whatroute http://www.whatroute.net/ --- On Fri, 6/5/09, Brian Lanning wrote: > From: Brian Lanning > Subject: Re: Classic mac fun (and some questions) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Friday, June 5, 2009, 1:15 PM > On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 12:11 PM, > Cameron Kaiser > wrote: > >> > You should see (the Q700 has built-in > Ethernet IIRC) something like > >> > LocalTalk and the built-in Ethernet. Select > Ethernet in MacTCP, and click > >> > More... if you want to adjust things like > subnet mask and so on. > >> > If you are using an ENet card in one of the > NuBus slots, make sure you > >> > have a driver for it. I would just use the > built-in ENet; AAUI connectors > >> > are dirt-cheap and common as, well, dirt. > >> > >> I have the AAUI connector. I'm thinking it's > working since I get a > >> light on the hub. ?I was able to switch it from > appletalk to tcp/ip > >> and set it to dhcp, but it looks like it didn't > even try to ask for an > >> ip address. > > > > I've never used MacTCP for DHCP. Assign it a static > address first and > > see how far you get. > > > ok.? I'm lost without a command line.? Is there a > version of ping in > there somewhere?? What about samba/windows shares or > maybe ftp? > > brian > From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Fri Jun 5 12:27:10 2009 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 19:27:10 +0200 Subject: For pickup: VAX-11/750 and RK07 In-Reply-To: References: <200906022258.53816.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200906022316.53813.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4A281FF5.6080005@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: > Date: Thu, 4 Jun 2009 15:52:40 -0400 > Subject: Re: For pickup: VAX-11/750 and RK07 > From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 3:26 PM, e.stiebler wrote: >> Patrick Finnegan wrote: >>> >>> And, they've been claimed. >>> That was fast. >> >> Yes, I can imagine. I gave mine away, and now I'm missing it ;-) > > Indeed. 15 years ago, I was able to save the 11/750 from work, but > could not find room for a pair of RK07s and a pickup-truck-load of > RK07 cartridges. Those were good drives - easy to repair, decent > amount of storage for the day, fast. Just don't get your fingers > behind the ears on the voice coil during a power-down - those heads > snap back *fast*! (when the NiCd pack is good, that is). > > Someone just got a fun little system to play with. Hopefully we'll > hear what it's running and how it's loaded before too long. > > -ethan Definitely good advice to keep your fingers away from the heads and carriage near the voice coil! I have a movie clip on my site showing the loading of the heads on an RK07. Moving in *fast* from the rest position (far rear) to track 00 and then slowish to the inner track and then back to track 00. After that the READY light will lit. The movement from the far rear to the edge of the platter is quite fast ... But I wanted to see what would happen if you disconnect the head that reads the servo track ... pity that I do not have a movie of that, but I sure don't want to repeat that just for a movie. The heads move from the far rear at full speed all the way to the inner track and then at that same fast speed back outward. Having your fingers there would certainly hurt a lot. Now, without control, just by NiCad pack at brute force, I can imagine that the movement will be even more deadly for your fingers. If you have an RK07 drive, open the rear top lid, use a piece of wood to push down the lock mechanism of the head carriage and carefully try to pull the heads out of their far rear position. If the NiCads are still OK, you will need a lot of force the moment the microswitch clicks. At that point I stopped. I don't know how good the NiCads in that drive are (still need to check that), but it was impressive. I guess the RK05 will behave similar with a good NiCad pack. I have five (!) RK07 drives. I want to keep 3 of them, so sooner or later two drives will have to go (in The Netherlands). I plan to connect them all to the RK07 Field Test Box to see in what shape they are. They should all be OK ... - Henk. From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Jun 5 12:29:47 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 10:29:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380906051015h519bf7f2ue91d5c17ad709bd5@mail.gmail.com> from Brian Lanning at "Jun 5, 9 12:15:48 pm" Message-ID: <200906051729.n55HTlAp022562@floodgap.com> > > > I have the AAUI connector. I'm thinking it's working since I get a > > > light on the hub. _I was able to switch it from appletalk to tcp/ip > > > and set it to dhcp, but it looks like it didn't even try to ask for an > > > ip address. > > > > I've never used MacTCP for DHCP. Assign it a static address first and > > see how far you get. > > ok. I'm lost without a command line. Is there a version of ping in > there somewhere? What about samba/windows shares or maybe ftp? You should be able to assign it a static address from the More... screen. That doesn't work? As far as Windows shares, I *think* there was something that would run on 7.6, but good luck finding it. If you want to try connecting to an FTP server (though without DNS that should be fun ;-), you can get Fetch 4.0.3 from here which I believe is 68k: gopher://gopher.floodgap.com/4/archive/info-mac/comm/inet/fetch-403.hqx If not, try gopher://gopher.floodgap.com/4/archive/userserve-ucsd-edu/Communications%20Programs/FTP%20Software/Fetch%203.0.3%20Installer.hqx for 3.0. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Never refuse a breath mint. -- Daniel Handler ------------------------------ From brianlanning at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 12:48:47 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 12:48:47 -0500 Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) In-Reply-To: <200906051722.n55HMIZq013208@floodgap.com> References: <6dbe3c380906051013v1604a59brb6d3240b1aeff42d@mail.gmail.com> <200906051722.n55HMIZq013208@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380906051048k45cab2a7pfaa9cbdcdf92137a@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 12:22 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> > > Can I write mac or apple 2gs floppies with a PC floppy drive? >> > >> > If you have a raw disk image, sure. Only the original GCR disks cannot >> > be written that way, but the later MFM disks (of which the Q700 can most >> > definitely read) can be done with a PC from an image. >> >> !!! >> Got a link to some software to do this? > > Well, rawrite, anything like that :) > >> through the floppy disk controller or can I do this with a usb floppy >> drive? > > Depends on the program. I've only ever done this with an internal FDC > drive but I don't see a reason why an external USB wouldn't work. > >> I was under the impression that mac floppy drives used some sort of >> variable speed voodoo that made them incompatible with PCs. > > Not the (more) current MFM disks. The original GCR disks above do indeed > use a variable speed system and cannot be written by conventional PC drives. > However, the later MFM disks and "SuperDrives" (not to be confused with > Apple's contemporary use of the term) are bog standard except for the HFS. Thanks. I'll try all that out tonight as well. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 12:23:35 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 13:23:35 -0400 Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380906051013v1604a59brb6d3240b1aeff42d@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380906050942w23c3381fn7c25e0c931677d20@mail.gmail.com> <200906051707.n55H71V6027578@floodgap.com> <6dbe3c380906051013v1604a59brb6d3240b1aeff42d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 1:13 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: > I was under the impression that mac floppy drives used some sort of > variable speed voodoo that made them incompatible with PCs. 400K/800K have variable numbers of sectors per track. That was done in the original single-sided drives (400K only) by varying the drive speed. Since I don't remember hearing double-sided drives change pitch, they must have done it the way Commodore did with their 5.25" floppies (starting with the CBM 2040 in the late 1970s), by changing the bit clock in software (the CBM drives have a "divide-by-N" 16-pin TTL counter chip, but the lower two bits of "N" are attached to a 6522, so the firmware gets to decide (track by track) to divide the clock by 12, 13, 14, or 15. In Macs, that functionality is built into the IWM (Integrated Woz Machine) AFAIK). Later Macs can read/write PC-compatible floppies, so there must be a way to select a bit-clock-divider that is compatible with PC-formatted media. The rest is all software. -ethan From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Fri Jun 5 14:23:46 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 12:23:46 -0700 Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) In-Reply-To: <4A292A79.7060901@bitsavers.org> References: <6dbe3c380906042247p488bb10ete9fa7d369fb304b0@mail.gmail.com> <200906050637.n556bi9R029020@floodgap.com> <6dbe3c380906050712h3ca6570bw80e7260bb4ec318e@mail.gmail.com> <4A292A79.7060901@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4A2970C2.9000706@mail.msu.edu> Al Kossow wrote: > Brian Lanning wrote: > >> It's actually a copy of windows xp I had sitting in another machine. >> So it should be ISO9660. Maybe the mac won't read it out of >> principle. ;-) >> > > Correct. The principle being MAC OS doesn't know anything about NTFS. > The XP CD is a standard ISO9660 format disk (possibly with Joliet extensions, I don't recall.) At any rate, the Mac should be able to read it. (I'm not sure it's possible to put NTFS on a CD, that would be interesting...) Josh From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 5 14:41:13 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 12:41:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380906050942w23c3381fn7c25e0c931677d20@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380906042247p488bb10ete9fa7d369fb304b0@mail.gmail.com> <31f401c9e5eb$b2dd69a0$0dce19bb@desktaba> <6dbe3c380906050757x1d2624c3wfdf0a0b053418b8b@mail.gmail.com> <33e601c9e5fb$71d58360$0dce19bb@desktaba> <6dbe3c380906050942w23c3381fn7c25e0c931677d20@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090605123630.T17386@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 5 Jun 2009, Brian Lanning wrote: > Can I write mac or apple 2gs floppies with a PC floppy drive? NO. exceptions: you CAN write Mac 1.4M disks. but NOT Apple 2 5.25", nor Mac 400K/800K the DRIVE is not the limitation. the disk controller is the limitation. There exist special add-on boards for the PC that permit reading and writing GCR. Although MicroSolutions did make some, the Compaticard is NOT the answer. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 5 14:44:49 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 12:44:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380906051013v1604a59brb6d3240b1aeff42d@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380906050942w23c3381fn7c25e0c931677d20@mail.gmail.com> <200906051707.n55H71V6027578@floodgap.com> <6dbe3c380906051013v1604a59brb6d3240b1aeff42d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090605124133.L17386@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 5 Jun 2009, Brian Lanning wrote: > I was under the impression that mac floppy drives used some sort of > variable speed voodoo that made them incompatible with PCs. The drive rotational speed is NOT the problem. The Central Point Option Board 2 can read and write 400k/800K disks. All that is needed to deal with the rotational speed is to vary the data transfer rate to compensate. The issue that needs to be dealt with is that no 765 style disk controller, nor even WD 17** style disk controller can read nor write GCR. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 5 14:46:57 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 12:46:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) In-Reply-To: <200906051722.n55HMIZq013208@floodgap.com> References: <200906051722.n55HMIZq013208@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20090605124614.P17386@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 5 Jun 2009, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Depends on the program. I've only ever done this with an internal FDC > drive but I don't see a reason why an external USB wouldn't work. Has anybody ever seen a USB drive that can do GCR? From segin2005 at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 14:58:42 2009 From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Kirn Gill) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 15:58:42 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4A2978F2.3000200@gmail.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Josh Dersch wrote: > Hey All -- > > So, instead of debugging my 11/40 last night I decided to get my > 11/73 running again since all it needed was to be put back together > :). Installed 2.11BSD on it from TK50 tape, and it was only > slightly faster than the last time I installed it -- at 19.2kbps > using vtserver :). > > At any rate, it's online, so to speak, so if you feel like playing > around, just telnet to yahozna.dyndns.org. (login: guest, password > Guest1!) Be kind, it's not the speediest thing out there. I figure > it's rather unlikely it'll be hacked into, and if it is, worst case > I can restore the drive from the image I made of it... > > Is there a repository of source/binaries for stuff people have > (back) ported to 2.11BSD? I'm thinking of seeing if I can squeeze > an older version of Apache on it if I ever find the time... > > - Josh > > (Specs, just in case anyone cares: > 11/73 CPU, > 2mb RAM, > TK50 tape, > DEQNA ethernet, > TS11 -> M4 9 track (currently non functional) > Emulex U07 SCSI -> SCSI->IDE bridge -> IBM Microdrive (4gb)) > > > > Well, out of curiosity, I'm going to attempt to build gzip and wget on it. I hope it doesn't crash. I've never used anything from this era before, in terms of "capable" computers. Apple ]['s don't count. It's damnably slow, but at least it works. It sucks, though, by the time I was born, the age of the killer micros had just begun. Damn the 90's. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkopePEACgkQF9H43UytGiYKAwCgm3GBcWhtUZRFrOyeCHWm5d90 5jYAnju7lpCd9z8/+MKszVXB4dZchjSw =rYE1 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 5 15:07:11 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 16:07:11 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: <4A2978F2.3000200@gmail.com> References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> <4A2978F2.3000200@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Jun 5, 2009, at 3:58 PM, Kirn Gill wrote: > Well, out of curiosity, I'm going to attempt to build gzip and wget on > it. I hope it doesn't crash. That'll be fun. > It's damnably slow, but at least it works. Yep. The scary thing is...an OS like RSX-11 or RSTS/E is quite zippy on a machine like that. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Jun 5 15:24:34 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 21:24:34 +0100 Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) In-Reply-To: <4A2970C2.9000706@mail.msu.edu> References: <6dbe3c380906042247p488bb10ete9fa7d369fb304b0@mail.gmail.com> <200906050637.n556bi9R029020@floodgap.com> <6dbe3c380906050712h3ca6570bw80e7260bb4ec318e@mail.gmail.com> <4A292A79.7060901@bitsavers.org> <4A2970C2.9000706@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4A297F02.9030003@philpem.me.uk> Josh Dersch wrote: > (I'm not sure it's possible to put NTFS on a CD, that would be > interesting...) It should be possible -- in theory. Create an NTFS filesystem image on a Linux box, then use cdrecord or wodim to write it to a CD-R. If I get sufficiently bored later on, I might try it, but I doubt even an XP box would be willing to read it... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 5 15:16:37 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 16:16:37 -0400 Subject: 8" Floppies In-Reply-To: <4A28C66B.6090306@brouhaha.com> References: <4A2783E1.5090803@sdu.se> <20090604113117.GG5509@n0jcf.net> <4A28C66B.6090306@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <859B5F50-8AB4-4FF4-905C-46FC239FF0AE@neurotica.com> On Jun 5, 2009, at 3:16 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > They're double-sided disks. Not too uncommon. If you want to see > some really strange 8" floppy disks, I have a box of Memorex disks > that are hard-sectored and have the sector/index hole near the > outer edge of the disk, rather than near the rim. > > IBM used an outer-edge index hole on the very first floppy drive, > the Minnow (23FD), which was a read-only drive used for microcode > storage. Minnow only stored about 80KB and spun at 90 RPM (vs. 360 > for "modern" 8-inch floppy drives). The 23FD drive and media were > not offered as separate products. I'm pretty sure I have a large number of these floppies. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jun 5 15:30:24 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 13:30:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> <4A2978F2.3000200@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Jun 2009, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jun 5, 2009, at 3:58 PM, Kirn Gill wrote: >> It's damnably slow, but at least it works. > > Yep. The scary thing is...an OS like RSX-11 or RSTS/E is quite zippy on a > machine like that. Okay, now you almost have me curious enough to get 2.11BSD up and running on my /73. I've run the others on /73's, but never UNIX. Last time I looked 2.11BSD doesn't have the necessary patches applied to the distribution to work with my Viking SCSI controller. Zane From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 5 15:41:19 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 16:41:19 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> <4A2978F2.3000200@gmail.com> Message-ID: <76A560C9-D0EB-46D9-9C8A-BA154F9261BD@neurotica.com> On Jun 5, 2009, at 4:30 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>> It's damnably slow, but at least it works. >> >> Yep. The scary thing is...an OS like RSX-11 or RSTS/E is quite >> zippy on a machine like that. > > Okay, now you almost have me curious enough to get 2.11BSD up and > running on > my /73. I've run the others on /73's, but never UNIX. Last time I > looked > 2.11BSD doesn't have the necessary patches applied to the > distribution to > work with my Viking SCSI controller. It's cool, but *really* slow. Dicking with the overlays when building new kernels is fun the first few times, but after that.. That said, though, I do keep an 11/83 ready-to-boot with 2.11BSD because it's very handy to be able to squirt disk images around via FTP and dd them to and from physical disks. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jun 5 15:46:33 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 13:46:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: <76A560C9-D0EB-46D9-9C8A-BA154F9261BD@neurotica.com> References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> <4A2978F2.3000200@gmail.com> <76A560C9-D0EB-46D9-9C8A-BA154F9261BD@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Jun 2009, Dave McGuire wrote: > It's cool, but *really* slow. Dicking with the overlays when building new > kernels is fun the first few times, but after that.. Okay, that does not sound fun at all. Somehow that is more in line with why I've said I don't collect old UNIX boxes. All my old ones were much newer when I aquired them! :-) I like my UNIX fast and modern. > That said, though, I do keep an 11/83 ready-to-boot with 2.11BSD because > it's very handy to be able to squirt disk images around via FTP and dd them > to and from physical disks. I have a MicroVAX III that is currently in storage, but will soon be moving into our garage. I built it to handle those sort of things, and I have a SCSI box I can hook up to a Sun for the SCSI HD's on my PDP-11. That's the nice thing about the removable tray's on the PDP-11. The MicroVAX III handles reading and writing RL01 and RL02 images nicely. I'm glad you made me think of this, I need to be sure and leave room to get the row of 19" racks into the garage! It will be interesting to see how all the hardware has held up after being in storage for the past nine years. Though until I get the cooling and power issues solved I won't be able to run much. Zane From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 15:54:23 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 16:54:23 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> <4A2978F2.3000200@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A2985FF.70209@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: >> It's damnably slow, but at least it works. > > Yep. The scary thing is...an OS like RSX-11 or RSTS/E is quite zippy > on a machine like that. Hmmm. Porting (or writing a work-alike of) RSX-11 for a newer architecture (suck as PC -- for the low cost) comes to mind. Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 5 15:59:21 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 16:59:21 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: <4A2985FF.70209@gmail.com> References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> <4A2978F2.3000200@gmail.com> <4A2985FF.70209@gmail.com> Message-ID: <621B149A-94E5-4AC7-9EF8-59C8DE237EA1@neurotica.com> On Jun 5, 2009, at 4:54 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>> It's damnably slow, but at least it works. >> Yep. The scary thing is...an OS like RSX-11 or RSTS/E is quite >> zippy on a machine like that. > > Hmmm. Porting (or writing a work-alike of) RSX-11 for a newer > architecture (suck as PC -- for the low cost) comes to mind. That would be extremely yummy. Note that you typed "suck as PC" above...Freudian slip? ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 5 15:03:56 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 21:03:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: Repairing an HP3421A (Signature Analysis) In-Reply-To: from "vp" at Jun 4, 9 10:16:12 pm Message-ID: > > I am trying to repair an HP3421A data acquisition and control unit > that fails its power on tests. > > In the service manual it refers to a number of "Signature Analysis" > tests that essentially mean that the unit runs some diagnostic > routine and you go and collect "signatures" from various test points. > > Unfortunately I do not have a device to compute these signatures. > > Does anybody know how to calculate them using a logic analyzer > (I have a Bitscope and an HP 1630D), or something similar? Let me say that I regard signature analysis as being a pretty useless diagnostic technique (second only to board-swapping?). Perhaps I should explain a bit... A signature anaylser is basically a shift register with XOR feedback, like a CRC generator/checker. The clock and 'start' / 'stop' signals come from the decvice under test, the input to the XORs (the data you'd be calculating the CRC of if it was a CRC generator) comes from the probe, and thus the point you want to know the signature of. The 'signature' is the data in the shfit register at the end. IIRC the HP anaylsers use a 16 bit shift register, the signature is 4 hex characters, but HP didn't use 'A' to 'F' but some odd letters. THey said this was to prevent them being misread on a 7 segment display, I am not convinced... I don;t know the XOR circuit used (==the CRC polynomial), but IIRC the service manual for at least one HP signature analyser is on the web (possibly on one of the video games repair sites). It uses simple TTL chips and a couple of ROMs (one as the control state machine, the other as the display decoder) so you should be able to deduce the polynomial if you want to. Anyway, as you know, the CRC of a stream of data is totally different for small changes in the data (unlike a simple parity check where an odd number of bit errors gives the same partiy bit). Of course with a 16 bit register there are only 65536 possible signature, which is less than the number of possible pulse trains you can analyse, so there's always a chance that an incorrect signal will have the right signature, but it's unlikely (much as it's unlikly a corrupted file or data stream will have the right CRC). THat is not the reason for my dislike of the technique. What I dislike is that while it'll tell you a signal is wrong, it doesn't tell you how it's wrong. Suppose you have a subcircuit with 2 inputs an an output (maybe just a simple gate). If that's part of a complex malfunctioning system, then perhaps all 3 signatures (2 inputs and output) are wrong. But what you don't know (and can't easily work out) is whether the signature you see for the output is the correct one for the 2 input signals (given their signatures). So you don;t know if this cirucit is working correctly (and the fault is elsewhere) or whether it's malfunctioning and the incorrect output of that circuit is causing other parts of the unit to do the wrong things and thus give the wrong input to this little bit. And of course in a microprocessor-controlled device, the signatures of just about all signals round the procesosr/memory are very dependant on what program it's running. Yes, you run a test routine, but I am sure I've seen service manuals where the signatures you should get depend on the ROM version fitted. Great if you don't know the version, or if you have a version later than the ones in the manual. Signature analysis will probably tell you if something is working correctly or not. But I don't think it's much help in finding out _why_ it's not working. My guess is that given the data captured by a logic analyser (taking account of the clock, start and stop signals) and the polynomial used, you could calcuate the signatures. Whether it'll help you get the 3412 working is another matter. BTW, what is the problem with your 3421? I assume you know to do the initial tests using the HPIL interface not hPIB (if you have that option). The point meing that the 3421 is internally an HPIL device, the HPIB interface goes to a circuit somewhat similar to an HP82169 which links to the HPIL port on the mainboard. So if it won't work in HPIL mode, it certianly won't work in HPIB mode (but if it's OK as an HPIL device but not as an HPIB one, the problam is on the HPIB interface PCB). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 5 15:08:30 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 21:08:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: For pickup: VAX-11/750 and RK07 In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Jun 4, 9 03:52:40 pm Message-ID: > Indeed. 15 years ago, I was able to save the 11/750 from work, but > could not find room for a pair of RK07s and a pickup-truck-load of I think I'd have takne the drives (and put them on an 11 or something) and left the VAX. The 11/750 is not a machine I greatly care for.... > RK07 cartridges. Those were good drives - easy to repair, decent I am not convinced abotu the 'easy to repair'. I've read the printset, and that servo system is _complicated_. And don't you need some rather special tools/test gear to fit new heads? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 5 14:46:19 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 20:46:19 +0100 (BST) Subject: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Jun 4, 9 03:15:24 pm Message-ID: > One wonders if the in-house product test was more rigorous than > connecting two devices with a 2m cable and sending a few characters at > 9600 bps, or more likely, the engineers said that the design as given > wouldn't meet the formal spec without spending $0.25 on more robust > components and were told to keep it cheap since it would probably work > for most customers, or at least work well enough that few customers > would return the item. Or, given that many people seem to have problems with RS232 interfaces [1], they'd simply claim the cable was wired wrongly, or you haven't set the baud rate/parity/word length correctly, or... And of coruse support is non-existant, as it seems to be for all thigns these days :-( [1] I don't seem to have too many problems. But then of course I don't just wire the cable and hope, I read the manuals and more imporatantly stick a breakout box or prootcol analyser on the devives first. > >> spikes at about 20kHz more like a sawtooth wave, than nice neat pulses. > > > > Is it possible that the DC-DC converter is playing up? I asusme this > > USB-RS"32 converter is powered from the 5V on the USB port so presumably > > it contains some kinde of DC-DC converter to get RS232 levels, possible > > inside a MAXnnnn IC.Perhaps that can't supply enough current to the drivers. > > The USB serial devices I've seen have been a 1-chip design - > presumably USB, UART, and level converters all on one die, with a few > discretes for the DC-DC converter. I don't remember seeing any > separate Maxim devices in them. Ah... I thought I heard of a USB-TTL level async serial chip (i.e. you need to feed the asynch side through a MAXnnn or similar) and assumed that's what was used in these adapters. Probably not. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 5 15:14:18 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 21:14:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: QIC cartridge tape compatibility In-Reply-To: <4A27D39B.2383.1089C556@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 4, 9 02:00:59 pm Message-ID: > > On 4 Jun 2009 at 20:03, Tony Duell wrote: > > > The 9145 contains a 68000 CPU and some battery-backed RAM modules, > > and alas some ASICs. One day I'll figure out something about it. > > Probably later than my Adic drive, then. It's got a 6800 and a 2716 Probably... The HP9144 (16 track) has a 68B09 and maybe another microcontroller in it. Which is what I expected given what you find in the HP hard disk boxes. When I took the conver off that 9145, I was rather suppised by the big 64 pin DIL package... > EPROM with a 3M copyright sticker on it--one of several cards stacked > up in a little card cage with backplane under and behind the tape One of the HP drives (I think it's the 9144 went through many revisions with different numbers of PCBs. Some had 2 boards under the mchanism and, ITRC, 3 boards for the cotnroller fitted round it, I think the latest versio had everything on one PCB. Mien is somewhere in the middle... > area. If you stick a traditional DC300/600... tape in it, it spins > it briefly before announcing with a loud buzz and LED that there's a > fault condition. I seem to rememebr the HP drives do something similar -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 5 15:55:32 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 21:55:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: TI Silent 700 model 733 manual In-Reply-To: <20090604113117.GG5509@n0jcf.net> from "Chris Elmquist" at Jun 4, 9 06:31:17 am Message-ID: > > I also have a 733 without cassette drives (is that a different model #)? > It would be nice to have access to the service manual for it. It's been i= > n > an attic for about 10 yrs but I plan to bring it back to life real soon. I'll certainly take a look at the service manual if it ends up on Bitsavers or somewhere similar. I haev 2 of these terminals... At a radio rally nearly 20 years ago I bought a KSR version (no tape drives). The seller had 4 old printers, he started off trying to sell them for a farly high price (\pounds 10.00 each or something), by the end of the take he too \pounds 5.00 for all 4. The one I particularly wanted was the Teletpye KSR43, the others with the TI 733 and a couple of Cnetronics printes (brand, not (just) interface) with a strange carriage feed mechanism. At the same rally, from another seller I bought the dual tape drive unit. I didn't realise it would go on the TI terminal until I got it home, saw the TI logo all over the tape drive parts, and relaised the 'feet' would fit on top of the terminal if I remvoed a couple of cover plates. What I didn't have was the cable to link them. Oh, the tape unt is missing the outer cover but otherwise seems to be complete/ Anyway, about 10 years later a friend of mine had the ASR model, complete with covers and cable. I asked if I could 'buzz out' the cable and he gave me the complete device. So I have one complete ASR model, a KSR one, and the working bits of a tape unit. > > Oh-- it has a 300 baud acoustic coupler on the side too :-) I don't have that. -tony From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jun 5 16:12:34 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 14:12:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: <4A2985FF.70209@gmail.com> References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> <4A2978F2.3000200@gmail.com> <4A2985FF.70209@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Jun 2009, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Dave McGuire wrote: >>> It's damnably slow, but at least it works. >> >> Yep. The scary thing is...an OS like RSX-11 or RSTS/E is quite zippy on >> a machine like that. > > Hmmm. Porting (or writing a work-alike of) RSX-11 for a newer architecture > (suck as PC -- for the low cost) comes to mind. > > Peace... Sridhar > It would be nice to see just about any OS that wasn't basically POSIX, or DOS/Windows running native on a PC. Zane From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 5 16:24:16 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 17:24:16 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> <4A2978F2.3000200@gmail.com> <4A2985FF.70209@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4BB72BDF-E150-4E00-AA3C-88911F55294A@neurotica.com> On Jun 5, 2009, at 5:12 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>>> It's damnably slow, but at least it works. >>> >>> Yep. The scary thing is...an OS like RSX-11 or RSTS/E is quite >>> zippy on a machine like that. >> >> Hmmm. Porting (or writing a work-alike of) RSX-11 for a newer >> architecture (suck as PC -- for the low cost) comes to mind. > > It would be nice to see just about any OS that wasn't basically > POSIX, or > DOS/Windows running native on a PC. ColorForth!! -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jun 5 17:00:36 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 15:00:36 -0700 Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe3c380906050942w23c3381fn7c25e0c931677d20@mail.gmail.com> <200906051707.n55H71V6027578@floodgap.com> <6dbe3c380906051013v1604a59brb6d3240b1aeff42d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A299584.60501@brouhaha.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > 400K/800K have variable numbers of sectors per track. That was done > in the original single-sided drives (400K only) by varying the drive > speed. Since I don't remember hearing double-sided drives change > pitch, they must have done it the way Commodore did with their 5.25" > floppies (starting with the CBM 2040 in the late 1970s), by changing > the bit clock in software (the CBM drives have a "divide-by-N" 16-pin > TTL counter chip, but the lower two bits of "N" are attached to a > 6522, so the firmware gets to decide (track by track) to divide the > clock by 12, 13, 14, or 15. In Macs, that functionality is built into > the IWM (Integrated Woz Machine) AFAIK). > > No, the Apple 800K drives varied the spindle motor speed also. They were quieter, so it is less obvious. > Later Macs can read/write PC-compatible floppies, so there must be a > way to select a bit-clock-divider that is compatible with PC-formatted > media. The rest is all software. > The Apple "SuperDrive"/FDHD floppy drives that supported 720K/1440K MFM format in addition to 400K/800K GCR format used variable motor speed for GCR, and fixed for MFM. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jun 5 17:02:44 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 15:02:44 -0700 Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) In-Reply-To: <20090605124614.P17386@shell.lmi.net> References: <200906051722.n55HMIZq013208@floodgap.com> <20090605124614.P17386@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4A299604.5040102@brouhaha.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > Has anybody ever seen a USB drive that can do GCR? > Yes, I saw a demo of such a thing, which apparently didn't become a product. Eric From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 5 17:04:23 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 15:04:23 -0700 Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) In-Reply-To: <20090605124614.P17386@shell.lmi.net> References: <200906051722.n55HMIZq013208@floodgap.com>, <20090605124614.P17386@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4A2933F7.18939.15EA2A26@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Jun 2009 at 12:46, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Fri, 5 Jun 2009, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > Depends on the program. I've only ever done this with an internal > > FDC drive but I don't see a reason why an external USB wouldn't > > work. > > Has anybody ever seen a USB drive that can do GCR? Depends on the length of the "group"... But no, I've never seen one. --Chuck From slawmaster at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 16:25:49 2009 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 14:25:49 -0700 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: <4BB72BDF-E150-4E00-AA3C-88911F55294A@neurotica.com> References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> <4A2978F2.3000200@gmail.com> <4A2985FF.70209@gmail.com> <4BB72BDF-E150-4E00-AA3C-88911F55294A@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <7d3530220906051425k3c313650v502c4981cc5f2402@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 2:24 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jun 5, 2009, at 5:12 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>>>> >>>>> It's damnably slow, but at least it works. >>>> >>>> ?Yep. ?The scary thing is...an OS like RSX-11 or RSTS/E is quite zippy >>>> on a machine like that. >>> >>> Hmmm. ?Porting (or writing a work-alike of) RSX-11 for a newer >>> architecture (suck as PC -- for the low cost) comes to mind. >> >> It would be nice to see just about any OS that wasn't basically POSIX, or >> DOS/Windows running native on a PC. > > ?ColorForth!! > Plan 9! We don't pretend to follow POSIX, we just had Thompson and Kernighan do what they wanted. ;) John -- "I've tried programming Ruby on Rails, following TechCrunch in my RSS reader, and drinking absinthe. It doesn't work. I'm going back to C, Hunter S. Thompson, and cheap whiskey." -- Ted Dziuba From lists at databasics.us Fri Jun 5 17:24:47 2009 From: lists at databasics.us (Warren Wolfe) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 12:24:47 -1000 Subject: wire wrap machine pins In-Reply-To: <4A2603EF.1040309@brouhaha.com> References: <645CE5E3D8F14DB08EBB7BAD70B87E7E@andrewdesktop> <4A2603EF.1040309@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4A299B2F.2040004@databasics.us> Eric Smith wrote: > A short piece of copper tubing and a hammer work wonders. Right! The same is true in labor negotiations, as well.... Warren From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 5 17:47:42 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 18:47:42 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: <7d3530220906051425k3c313650v502c4981cc5f2402@mail.gmail.com> References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> <4A2978F2.3000200@gmail.com> <4A2985FF.70209@gmail.com> <4BB72BDF-E150-4E00-AA3C-88911F55294A@neurotica.com> <7d3530220906051425k3c313650v502c4981cc5f2402@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <05CFA042-91D3-4A22-8EEF-E263838B8B4A@neurotica.com> On Jun 5, 2009, at 5:25 PM, John Floren wrote: >>> It would be nice to see just about any OS that wasn't basically >>> POSIX, or >>> DOS/Windows running native on a PC. >> >> ColorForth!! >> > Plan 9! We don't pretend to follow POSIX, we just had Thompson and > Kernighan do what they wanted. ;) I would love to play with Plan 9 again. Has it been under active development? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From lists at databasics.us Fri Jun 5 17:46:48 2009 From: lists at databasics.us (Warren Wolfe) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 12:46:48 -1000 Subject: Further 11/40 unibus questions... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A29A058.1010604@databasics.us> Tony Duell wrote: > Sure. It is always best to look for the obvious things first (says the > guy who once spent a long time fioguring out a low contrast fault on a > VT100 video board, only to find the CRT screen needed cleaning...). But > after a bit, it's best to attack the problem logically. Long ago, I bought a Heathkit color television -- it was gorgeous. Needed some work. Also, while I was contemplating buying it, the owner offered to throw in a 'scope, too. It had never worked he said. The screen was "grainy" and a new tube cost too much. I accepted. The television was easy to fix (Heathkit, I said). But, when I fired up the 'scope, I was shocked. He was right. The scope image could be focused, but it never got clear. It looked like the phosphor was painted on the tube with a roller. Then, I had to laugh.... I took off the bezel, pulled off the graticule screen, and peeled the tyvek sticky paper off the back of the plastic screen, and voila! A nice clear trace. Warren From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 5 17:49:55 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 18:49:55 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> <4A2978F2.3000200@gmail.com> <76A560C9-D0EB-46D9-9C8A-BA154F9261BD@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <05FE2A12-8A56-4705-954A-B197DD90FAC7@neurotica.com> On Jun 5, 2009, at 4:46 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> It's cool, but *really* slow. Dicking with the overlays when >> building new kernels is fun the first few times, but after that.. > > Okay, that does not sound fun at all. Somehow that is more in line > with why > I've said I don't collect old UNIX boxes. All my old ones were > much newer > when I aquired them! :-) I like my UNIX fast and modern. Same here. >> That said, though, I do keep an 11/83 ready-to-boot with 2.11BSD >> because it's very handy to be able to squirt disk images around >> via FTP and dd them to and from physical disks. > > I have a MicroVAX III that is currently in storage, but will soon > be moving into our garage. I built it to handle those sort of > things, and I have a SCSI box I can hook up to a Sun for the SCSI > HD's on my PDP-11. That's the nice thing about the removable > tray's on the PDP-11. That sounds like it'll be very handy. > The MicroVAX III > handles reading and writing RL01 and RL02 images nicely. I'm glad > you made > me think of this, I need to be sure and leave room to get the row > of 19" > racks into the garage! What OS are you running on the -III? > It will be interesting to see how all the hardware > has held up after being in storage for the past nine years. Though > until I > get the cooling and power issues solved I won't be able to run much. I've dug quite a few things out of storage (~8yrs) over the past year, and have had mostly good luck. That damnable disintegrating filter foam makes a hell of a mess, but beyond that, most things have survived. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From lists at databasics.us Fri Jun 5 17:50:08 2009 From: lists at databasics.us (Warren Wolfe) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 12:50:08 -1000 Subject: vintage hardware still alive and kickin' -- another successful launch from vandenberg afb In-Reply-To: <7d3530220906031140p3fc9abfbt247ed310a94dc10@mail.gmail.com> References: <4A25EEBC.4060200@comcast.net> <1244017734.1093.50.camel@elric> <7d3530220906031140p3fc9abfbt247ed310a94dc10@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A29A120.1000300@databasics.us> John Floren wrote: > More like > L@@K RARE CDC CYBER IBM MAINFRAME SUPERCOMPUTER DEC UNIVAC PDP > BURROUGHS HONEYWELL VAX CRAY NEW IN BOX > HA! Nicely done. I've seen that too many times... > given the way some sellers seem to like sticking every computer name > under the sun in their descriptions. > "Every computer name under the *sun* in their descriptions"? I see what you did there.... Warren From lists at databasics.us Fri Jun 5 17:52:09 2009 From: lists at databasics.us (Warren Wolfe) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 12:52:09 -1000 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 70, Issue 3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A29A199.7080608@databasics.us> Tony Duell wrote: > I thoght that one state was a positive voltage between +3V and +25V wrt > signal ground and the other state was a negative voltage between -3V and > -25V wrt signal ground. Anything between -3V and +3V is illegal. > That is what I remember. Warren From lists at databasics.us Fri Jun 5 18:02:52 2009 From: lists at databasics.us (Warren Wolfe) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 13:02:52 -1000 Subject: Inappropriate remarks (Was Fwd: Mystery object... ) In-Reply-To: <01C9E47B.2D3491A0@MSE_D03> References: <01C9E47B.2D3491A0@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <4A29A41C.9070602@databasics.us> M H Stein wrote: > Boy, tough crowd! > > So, do you guys go around to funerals in your spare time wearing funny hats and > telling the bereaved mother that her son's untimely death is insignificant compared > to the starving kids in Africa, and besides, he would have died some day anyway? > And when someone suggests that's a bit inappropriate you deck 'em? > Aw, you've been spying on me. No fair. > Inability to empathize is often the result of a brain injury; had any bad bumps > on the head lately? > And, this is you demonstrating tact and appropriate behavior, Lumpy? Warren From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 18:05:43 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 19:05:43 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: <4BB72BDF-E150-4E00-AA3C-88911F55294A@neurotica.com> References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> <4A2978F2.3000200@gmail.com> <4A2985FF.70209@gmail.com> <4BB72BDF-E150-4E00-AA3C-88911F55294A@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4A29A4C7.109@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: >>>>> It's damnably slow, but at least it works. >>>> >>>> Yep. The scary thing is...an OS like RSX-11 or RSTS/E is quite >>>> zippy on a machine like that. >>> >>> Hmmm. Porting (or writing a work-alike of) RSX-11 for a newer >>> architecture (suck as PC -- for the low cost) comes to mind. >> >> It would be nice to see just about any OS that wasn't basically POSIX, or >> DOS/Windows running native on a PC. > > ColorForth!! Interesting! Peace... Sridhar From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jun 5 18:22:53 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 16:22:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: <05FE2A12-8A56-4705-954A-B197DD90FAC7@neurotica.com> References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> <4A2978F2.3000200@gmail.com> <76A560C9-D0EB-46D9-9C8A-BA154F9261BD@neurotica.com> <05FE2A12-8A56-4705-954A-B197DD90FAC7@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Jun 2009, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jun 5, 2009, at 4:46 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> >> I have a MicroVAX III that is currently in storage, but will soon be moving >> into our garage. I built it to handle those sort of things, and I have a >> SCSI box I can hook up to a Sun for the SCSI HD's on my PDP-11. That's the >> nice thing about the removable tray's on the PDP-11. > > That sounds like it'll be very handy. It was back before I switched to SCSI for my PDP-11's. Even my PDP-11/44 has a SCSI controller in it, so the main system I see it being of use for now days is the PDP-11/23 that resides in the same rack, as it only has RL01 and RL02 drives. >> The MicroVAX III >> handles reading and writing RL01 and RL02 images nicely. I'm glad you made >> me think of this, I need to be sure and leave room to get the row of 19" >> racks into the garage! > > What OS are you running on the -III? It runs OpenVMS 7.2 and has a pair of RA72's and a pair of RA73's. It's a pretty nice system. IIRC though it's only 16MB RAM. It was running VAX/VMS 4.x on a RD53 when I got it, sadly the drive didn't last long enough for me to get a backup of it. I went with 7.2 instead of 5.5 to get better TCP/IP support, though used a 5.5 disk to bootstrap it. I did all this about 10 years ago. >> It will be interesting to see how all the hardware >> has held up after being in storage for the past nine years. Though until I >> get the cooling and power issues solved I won't be able to run much. > > I've dug quite a few things out of storage (~8yrs) over the past year, and > have had mostly good luck. That damnable disintegrating filter foam makes a > hell of a mess, but beyond that, most things have survived. I'm most concerned about the PowerMac 8500/180, MicroVAX III, PDP-11/44, Atari TT030, and my two Amiga 3000's (the one 3000 was last booted about 7 years ago, at which time I had it running Amiga OS 3.9). I'm pretty sure my Amiga 500 is dead, as I couldn't get it running a couple years ago when I tried. :-( I'll probably also try to get an Apple ][e or ][gs up and running as well. My main Commodore 64 has been running off and on, so it should be Okay (last running around Christmas). I'm not sure what I'll do with the rest. My interests have changed a lot over the past 9 years. Realistically the only system I have a "pressing need" to get back up and running is my antique PowerMac 8500/180 and the UMAX scanner I have for it, as I want to be able to use the scanner to scan Medium and Large format film. In addition to shooting digital, I find myself shooting a lot of film these days, and am making the step up from 35mm to both Medium and Large format cameras. Zane From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 18:22:03 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 19:22:03 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: <621B149A-94E5-4AC7-9EF8-59C8DE237EA1@neurotica.com> References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> <4A2978F2.3000200@gmail.com> <4A2985FF.70209@gmail.com> <621B149A-94E5-4AC7-9EF8-59C8DE237EA1@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4A29A89B.4080709@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: >>>> It's damnably slow, but at least it works. >>> Yep. The scary thing is...an OS like RSX-11 or RSTS/E is quite >>> zippy on a machine like that. >> >> Hmmm. Porting (or writing a work-alike of) RSX-11 for a newer >> architecture (suck as PC -- for the low cost) comes to mind. > > That would be extremely yummy. I wonder how hard it would be? I can't say that I'm very familiar with the capabilities of RSX, but, considering the size of the code we're talking about, could it be possible that it wouldn't involve as much work as writing a more modern, featureful, cluttered, bloaty operating system? > Note that you typed "suck as PC" above...Freudian slip? ;) Probably. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 15:20:18 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 16:20:18 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> <4A2978F2.3000200@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 4:07 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jun 5, 2009, at 3:58 PM, Kirn Gill wrote: >> It's damnably slow, but at least it works. > > ?Yep. ?The scary thing is...an OS like RSX-11 or RSTS/E is quite zippy on a > machine like that. RT-11 screams on pretty much anything faster than a KDF-11. On a KDF-11, RT-11 always gave me acceptable single-user performance. On machines with a hard disk (not floppy-only), the console serial line speed always felt like the limiting factor. Running games, editing files with EDT, compiling MACRO-11 programs, etc., all "felt" fine, even on a machine that wasn't totally decked out. LSI-11s were a bit sluggish, though. -ethan From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jun 5 18:38:27 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 16:38:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: <4A29A89B.4080709@gmail.com> References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> <4A2978F2.3000200@gmail.com> <4A2985FF.70209@gmail.com> <621B149A-94E5-4AC7-9EF8-59C8DE237EA1@neurotica.com> <4A29A89B.4080709@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 5 Jun 2009, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Dave McGuire wrote: >>>>> It's damnably slow, but at least it works. >>>> Yep. The scary thing is...an OS like RSX-11 or RSTS/E is quite zippy >>>> on a machine like that. >>> >>> Hmmm. Porting (or writing a work-alike of) RSX-11 for a newer >>> architecture (suck as PC -- for the low cost) comes to mind. >> >> That would be extremely yummy. > > I wonder how hard it would be? I can't say that I'm very familiar with the > capabilities of RSX, but, considering the size of the code we're talking > about, could it be possible that it wouldn't involve as much work as writing > a more modern, featureful, cluttered, bloaty operating system? The main problem I see with porting it is that to do so would be in violation of copywrite. The second problem I see is that I'm not sure what exists in the way of source code. You would need some sort of Macro-11 to Macro-x86 compilier. An easier port might be something like RSTS/E, though the source code for it is somewhere around 150MB, IIRC. Realistically time might be better spent on writing a TCP Stack and running it under an emulator. Zane From slawmaster at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 17:58:50 2009 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 15:58:50 -0700 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: <05CFA042-91D3-4A22-8EEF-E263838B8B4A@neurotica.com> References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> <4A2978F2.3000200@gmail.com> <4A2985FF.70209@gmail.com> <4BB72BDF-E150-4E00-AA3C-88911F55294A@neurotica.com> <7d3530220906051425k3c313650v502c4981cc5f2402@mail.gmail.com> <05CFA042-91D3-4A22-8EEF-E263838B8B4A@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <7d3530220906051558k17e7ceb4n624f7a1048145b57@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 3:47 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jun 5, 2009, at 5:25 PM, John Floren wrote: >>>> >>>> It would be nice to see just about any OS that wasn't basically POSIX, >>>> or >>>> DOS/Windows running native on a PC. >>> >>> ?ColorForth!! >>> >> Plan 9! We don't pretend to follow POSIX, we just had Thompson and >> Kernighan do what they wanted. ;) > > ?I would love to play with Plan 9 again. ?Has it been under active > development? > > ? ? ? ? ?-Dave > Oh yeah, it's still being developed. My job is writing Plan 9 kernel code at a national lab. I'd say grab a basic PC, burn the CD, and go at it! Just read the 9fans mailing list archives *before* posting questions there ;) John -- "I've tried programming Ruby on Rails, following TechCrunch in my RSS reader, and drinking absinthe. It doesn't work. I'm going back to C, Hunter S. Thompson, and cheap whiskey." -- Ted Dziuba From blstuart at bellsouth.net Fri Jun 5 19:00:23 2009 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart at bellsouth.net) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 19:00:23 -0500 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: <05CFA042-91D3-4A22-8EEF-E263838B8B4A@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <93015cf47b0c242c40c7ac181b95871d@bellsouth.net> > On Jun 5, 2009, at 5:25 PM, John Floren wrote: >>>> It would be nice to see just about any OS that wasn't basically >>>> POSIX, or >>>> DOS/Windows running native on a PC. >>> >>> ColorForth!! >>> >> Plan 9! We don't pretend to follow POSIX, we just had Thompson and >> Kernighan do what they wanted. ;) > > I would love to play with Plan 9 again. Has it been under active > development? Yeah, it's been under slow but steady development. I don't know when you last used it, but there are some really interesting developments recently. For example, there's a version of the Plan9 kernel that runs in an interestinging virtualization/sandbox environment called vx32. So I'm composing this message in the acme mail client on this 9vx kernel which is running as a terminal connected to a Plan 9 file server I have upstairs. The biggest limitation is in device drivers, particularly for network interfaces. BLS From ingrammp at earthlink.net Fri Jun 5 19:29:16 2009 From: ingrammp at earthlink.net (mike ingram) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 17:29:16 -0700 Subject: Altos 686 In-Reply-To: References: <2B2AE65A-62B1-4413-8163-9C010976ABC5@earthlink.net> Message-ID: <1729B331-DBDC-4B93-95DC-3CA1818FE261@earthlink.net> Hi Sergio Uh... never mind the tarball stuff.... Dave has the files on his site all arranged in their separate disks... some were sent by me and some by another user. He also has a program that will allow you to create floppies on a PC type machine,,,, So, one takes these IMD images ( they are actually images of separate floppy disks ).. and burns floppies and then the Altos can read those floppies. His site is: www.classiccmp.org/dunfield Easiest method it to get the IMD program, those files, and a stack of floppies, then find a PC with a 5 1/2 floppy drive, and have at it for a bit. Then you go to the Altos and you should be able to read the files right there. Yes, you could use "cu" to get the IMD images over, but then you'd still have the problem of how to decode the IMD images, and some of the files weren't even unix files ( like the MP/M operating system and the ADX Diagnostic disk ).. Hope it helps Mike On May 27, 2009, at 12:01 AM, SPC wrote: > A lot of thanks, sincerely :-) > > The Altos is in good shape and working state and I consider a waste > don't > hack it a little. And, more important, I did a test and probe that > I can > manage it using the serial port of my laptop and one original Dec > VT220 > (that I use eventually to connect in old-fashion mode to SIMH by > the same > way, but this is other story). > > Only one point to clear... you speak about send IMD images in a > tarball, > isn't so ? Or perhaps... Do you speak about the single files of the > disks > (one by one) ? In this last case, I wonder if would be possible to > send > files to the Altos Xenix using 'cu' or something similar... Only > assorted > thoughts, you know... :-) > > Thanks again. Kind Regards. > Sergio > > > 2009/5/27 mike ingram > >> Hi Sergio >> >> I had given Dave Dunfield copies of a C compiler and some other >> stuff that >> I won on an Ebay auction a couple of years ago. >> >> Dave used to have a site at http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/ >> museum/img/index.htm >> that had copies of this, but it doesn't seem to be working.. >> ( anybody >> know where this is now ???? ) >> >> Anyways, I had these disks: >> >> Xenix Development System version 3.0BS0, which includes 7 floppies, >> SCCS 3.0B0 disk 1 of 1 >> Spelling Checker 3.0BS0 disk 1 of 1 >> Level II COBOL R2.02S0 RTS Rev 56 disk 1 of 1 >> INFORMIX demo version 3.11B two disks ( not ALTOS, but with >> INFORMIX >> label on it ) >> F77 Fortran version 1.2B0 disk 1 of 1 >> C Compiler 3.0BS1 two disks >> >> Be glad to email you what I have .... I think I just put it all >> into a tar >> ball and gzipped it, after using Dave's ImageDisk program to >> copy the >> original floppies into something more moveable. >> >> Mike >> >> >> >> >> >> On May 22, 2009, at 4:51 AM, SPC wrote: >> >> Hello. I have one Altos 686 with Xenix 3.2 in working state. I >> should like >>> to install on it one C compiler and eventually the Ryan-McFarland >>> Cobol >>> for >>> this platform if available. >>> >>> I remember something about IMD image disks available in some >>> place in the >>> Internet but I don't remember where. >>> >>> All help is welcome >>> >>> Kind Regards >>> Sergio >>> >> >> From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 5 19:54:44 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 20:54:44 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: <4A29A89B.4080709@gmail.com> References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> <4A2978F2.3000200@gmail.com> <4A2985FF.70209@gmail.com> <621B149A-94E5-4AC7-9EF8-59C8DE237EA1@neurotica.com> <4A29A89B.4080709@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6E909621-049E-4E70-85E8-92E97DD07CA0@neurotica.com> On Jun 5, 2009, at 7:22 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>>>> It's damnably slow, but at least it works. >>>> Yep. The scary thing is...an OS like RSX-11 or RSTS/E is >>>> quite zippy on a machine like that. >>> >>> Hmmm. Porting (or writing a work-alike of) RSX-11 for a newer >>> architecture (suck as PC -- for the low cost) comes to mind. >> That would be extremely yummy. > > I wonder how hard it would be? I can't say that I'm very familiar > with the capabilities of RSX, but, considering the size of the code > we're talking about, could it be possible that it wouldn't involve > as much work as writing a more modern, featureful, cluttered, > bloaty operating system? Well as you know, x86 assembler is a damn ugly mess compared to PDP-11. I'd probably implement it in C for that reason alone, if working with x86. I'd want to put it on a more modern architecture. These early DEC operating systems are amazingly compact and efficient. I'd think something like a C implementation (and I'm talking a VERY close clone) of RSX-11M would be unbelievably fast on modern hardware. >> Note that you typed "suck as PC" above...Freudian slip? ;) > > Probably. 8-) :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From lynchaj at yahoo.com Fri Jun 5 20:07:56 2009 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 21:07:56 -0400 Subject: N8VEM S-100 prototyping board PCBs available! Message-ID: <756D33E8156E4108A6DD86231FAE7B09@andrewdesktop> Hi! The N8VEM S-100 prototyping board PCBs are available. I tested one out and it seems to work fine. It fits in the S-100 connector on the N8VEM S-100 backplane just right and the pads line up with the pins as you would expect. I assembled the components and the proper voltages appear in the correct places. They seem really nice and I am very happy with how these turned out. Pads for +5V, +12V, and -12V regulators with filter capacitors are on the PCBs. You can optionally install them or change them around as you see fit. The PCBs are $25 each plus $2 shipping in the US and $5 shipping overseas. Please contact me off list if interested in some. I posted some photos in the N8VEM wiki S100 folder if you would like to see them. http://n8vem-sbc.pbworks.com/browse/#view=ViewFolder¶m=S100 I am really looking forward to building some S-100 home brew computer stuff with these boards. This is going to be a lot of fun! Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 20:55:05 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 21:55:05 -0400 Subject: 8" Floppies In-Reply-To: <4A28C66B.6090306@brouhaha.com> References: <4A2783E1.5090803@sdu.se> <20090604113117.GG5509@n0jcf.net> <4A28C66B.6090306@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > IBM used an outer-edge index hole on the very first floppy drive, the Minnow > (23FD), which was a read-only drive used for microcode storage. ?Minnow only > stored about 80KB and spun at 90 RPM (vs. 360 for "modern" 8-inch floppy > drives). ?The 23FD drive and media were not offered as separate products. I could use some extra 23FD media, and REALLY use a drive that can write a 23FD. -- Will From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jun 5 21:23:02 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 19:23:02 -0700 Subject: 8" Floppies In-Reply-To: References: <4A2783E1.5090803@sdu.se> <20090604113117.GG5509@n0jcf.net> <4A28C66B.6090306@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4A29D306.6020201@brouhaha.com> William Donzelli wrote: > I could use some extra 23FD media, and REALLY use a drive that can write a 23FD. > I imagine that one could contrive to wire the head connector of a 23FD to a write amplifier of one's own devising, and use a 23FD to write. Not trivial, but perhaps not too terribly difficult. Since there's no erase head, it would be necessary to bulk-erase the disk first. Are the technical specs for 23FD in any surviving IBM maintenance documents? It might be helpful to know the track 0 radius, track pitch, media coercivity, etc. Beyond the obvious difference in the location of the index/sector hole, is here much other difference in the jacket of 23FD disks as compared to the later (standard) 8" disks? Back before I had any blank Twiggy disks for a Lisa, I took 5.25" high-density ("1.2MB") disks and hacked up the jackets to make crude but usable Twiggy disks. Could you make 23FD media that way? Eric From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Fri Jun 5 21:17:22 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 23:17:22 -0300 Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) References: <6dbe3c380906042247p488bb10ete9fa7d369fb304b0@mail.gmail.com><31f401c9e5eb$b2dd69a0$0dce19bb@desktaba><6dbe3c380906050757x1d2624c3wfdf0a0b053418b8b@mail.gmail.com><33e601c9e5fb$71d58360$0dce19bb@desktaba> <6dbe3c380906050942w23c3381fn7c25e0c931677d20@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <038601c9e64e$322b5cf0$761e19bb@desktaba> Can I write mac or apple 2gs floppies with a PC floppy drive? I don't have the right serial cable to go from the PC right to the mac or 2gs, but I know there's a version of ADT for the PC. And I wanted to get the mac going anyway. ====================== No, you can't. But you can make (or buy) the cable to connect the pc to the 2gs (humpf, I never saw a 2GS near me :P This is the only apple I never could afford :oP) :oD From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 15:16:47 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 16:16:47 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: <4A2978F2.3000200@gmail.com> References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> <4A2978F2.3000200@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 3:58 PM, Kirn Gill wrote: > Well, out of curiosity, I'm going to attempt to build gzip and wget on > it. > I hope it doesn't crash. It probably won't crash, but the compiler might or might not be able to wedge all that code into the available code space. Checking on a handy 64-bit Linux system, the gzip binary is under 64K total size, so that might not go so poorly. OTOH, wget is nearly 256K. That will be "fun" to adapt. I recommend paring back unneeded features and learning how overlays work. I can just about guarantee that you'll have Makefile issues for projects large enough or new enough to use configure scripts. Back in the day, we crufted Makefiles by hand and edited source from other variants of UNIX to make them work in our own environments. That's why we have configure scripts now - you don't have to know as many fiddly details and you can gather, configure and compile projects with an absolute minimum of human input. > I've never used anything from this era before, in terms of "capable" > computers. Apple ]['s don't count. I started with BASIC and Assembler on the 6502, and the Apple II counts (to me) because I earned my living off of it for nearly a year. After that place closed (due to external factors like our publisher, Reader's Digest, changing direction radically), I learned C on an 11/750 (VMS 3.x and 4.0BSD, when they were new). Wow, what a difference. I think you should give it a shot, but when you run into problems and issues, just remember that back in that era, we all ran into the same sorts of roadblocks and issues all the time, especially 16-bit-pointer issues with the PDP-11. Some of that wisdom is still available to search through in Usenet archives, but ISTR the rise of Usenet and the rise of 32-bit computing are somewhat intertwined. 16-bit computing was still around, of course, but in the DEC world, it was vastly tilted towards RSX and RSTS and RT-11, not so much with Unix by the mid 1980s. You might also get some good advice looking into Minix issues - the 286 isn't close to identical to the PDP-11, but 16 bits is 16 bits. Even reading up on code development on MS-DOS will be illuminating (before the advent of "32-bit extenders"). Linux started on a 386, bypassing these sorts of growing pains, so experience gained there is mostly only helpful for user-level familiarity, not working through small memory model compiling issues. -ethan -ethan From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 21:34:41 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 22:34:41 -0400 Subject: 8" Floppies In-Reply-To: <4A29D306.6020201@brouhaha.com> References: <4A2783E1.5090803@sdu.se> <20090604113117.GG5509@n0jcf.net> <4A28C66B.6090306@brouhaha.com> <4A29D306.6020201@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > Are the technical specs for 23FD in any surviving IBM maintenance documents? > ?It might be helpful to know the track 0 radius, track pitch, media > coercivity, etc. I think the 3830 docs have them. Some of the specs are actually on a sticker on the mechanism itself. -- Will From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 21:41:05 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 22:41:05 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> <4A2978F2.3000200@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A29D741.4020905@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: >> Well, out of curiosity, I'm going to attempt to build gzip and wget on >> it. >> I hope it doesn't crash. > > It probably won't crash, but the compiler might or might not be able > to wedge all that code into the available code space. > > Checking on a handy 64-bit Linux system, the gzip binary is under 64K > total size, so that might not go so poorly. OTOH, wget is nearly > 256K. That will be "fun" to adapt. I recommend paring back unneeded > features and learning how overlays work. But are those executables dynamically linked? If so, wouldn't the static executables be way larger? Peace... Sridhar From brianlanning at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 22:55:03 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 22:55:03 -0500 Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380906051048k45cab2a7pfaa9cbdcdf92137a@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380906051013v1604a59brb6d3240b1aeff42d@mail.gmail.com> <200906051722.n55HMIZq013208@floodgap.com> <6dbe3c380906051048k45cab2a7pfaa9cbdcdf92137a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380906052055o6dc4a1bfg2a042dfaff6cc3aa@mail.gmail.com> Here's what I see: Control Panels -> TCP/IP (AOL) This works. Is set it to ethernet and manually and plugged in good values. Control Panels -> Appletalk I set it to ethernet. It says "current zone: no zones available" Control Panels -> Apple Remote Access not setup correctly. please install from the disk and try again. I found file sharing and turned it on. I'm unable to ping the quadra from another machine on the network, but I do get a light on the hub. Apple file exchange works, but neither floppy drive that I have works. Writing apple disk images from a usb floppy appears to not work. I have another machine I plan to get going this weekend that has a floppy drive and a real disk controller. I'll try it from there. And to make matters worse, I noticed that there was an 8.1 installation in a separate system folder. I found the system folder picker and switched it to the 8.1 folder. Now the machine won't boot. I just get the happy face. Is there some bootup key combination that can undo this? brian From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 23:54:01 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 00:54:01 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: <4A29D741.4020905@gmail.com> References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> <4A2978F2.3000200@gmail.com> <4A29D741.4020905@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 10:41 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: >> Checking on a handy 64-bit Linux system, the gzip binary is under 64K >> total size, so that might not go so poorly. ?OTOH, wget is nearly >> 256K. ?That will be "fun" to adapt. ?I recommend paring back unneeded >> features and learning how overlays work. > > But are those executables dynamically linked? ?If so, wouldn't the static > executables be way larger? Ah, yes... right you are. Well... those aren't stripped binaries, so there's some symbol cruft to clean out. But then in the case of gzip, there's the issue of the size of any compression matrices vs the size of the data segment. Any way you slice it, it's likely to be a challenge to port modern tools like gzip and wget to the PDP-11, but with some effort, it might still be possible to squeeze them in. Oh... then there's the whole ANSI-C vs K&R thing... This is giving me flashbacks to when this stuff didn't always work like the READMEs said it should. -ethan From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sat Jun 6 00:34:17 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 22:34:17 -0700 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> <4A2978F2.3000200@gmail.com> <4A29D741.4020905@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A29FFD9.5080800@mail.msu.edu> Ethan Dicks wrote: > > This is giving me flashbacks to when this stuff didn't always work > like the READMEs said it should. > That's a pretty good one-sentence summary of UNIX ;). > -ethan > > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Jun 6 00:42:56 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 01:42:56 -0400 Subject: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 3:46 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> One wonders if the in-house product test was more rigorous than >> connecting two devices with a 2m cable and sending a few characters at >> 9600 bps... > > Or, given that many people seem to have problems with RS232 interfaces > [1], they'd simply claim the cable was wired wrongly, or you haven't set > the baud rate/parity/word length correctly, or... And of coruse support > is non-existant, as it seems to be for all thigns these days :-( Or tell you just to reinstall the drivers. :-P >> > Is it possible that the DC-DC converter is playing up? >> >> The USB serial devices I've seen have been a 1-chip design - >> presumably USB, UART, and level converters all on one die, with a few >> discretes for the DC-DC converter. ?I don't remember seeing any >> separate Maxim devices in them. > > Ah... I thought I heard of a USB-TTL level async serial chip (i.e. you > need to feed the asynch side through a MAXnnn or similar) and assumed > that's what was used in these adapters. Probably not. I know there are "FTDI"-based USB seriual converters which would presumably also have either an external MAXnnn or a bunch of discretes for a charge-pump and level conversion, but I haven't dismantled any of those. The ones I have dismantled (by sliding the plastic housing away from the DE-9) were because they were ultra-cheap (like $4 at the Thrift Store) to see what it would take to route +5V from the USB cable over pin 9, since I have a few serial-interfaced devices, like a toolbooth terminal, that the only external connection is a DE-9 w/pins 2, 3, 5, and 9 passing in/out (TxD, RxD and GND on the expected pins, plus Vcc on pin 9). The hack would be simple - sever any connection between the DE-9 pin 9 and the PCB, then run a jumper wire across the inside of the adapter and reassemble (or in one case, mount inside the enclosure and run the USB cable out a new hole). I realize it's no standard, but I've seen power-over-pin-9 enough to want a simple hack instead of these reverse-Y-cables I've made to tap serial and either PS/2 or USB for power to run these items. The extra cable gets a little clunky after a while. -ethan From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Jun 6 01:03:29 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 23:03:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) In-Reply-To: <4A297F02.9030003@philpem.me.uk> from Philip Pemberton at "Jun 5, 9 09:24:34 pm" Message-ID: <200906060603.n5663TXA015970@floodgap.com> > > (I'm not sure it's possible to put NTFS on a CD, that would be > > interesting...) > > It should be possible -- in theory. Create an NTFS filesystem image on a > Linux > box, then use cdrecord or wodim to write it to a CD-R. > > If I get sufficiently bored later on, I might try it, but I doubt even an XP > box would be willing to read it... It certainly wouldn't boot from it, given that El Torito virtually mandates ISO 9660. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The faster we go, the rounder we get. -- The Grateful Dead, on relativity -- From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Jun 6 01:04:26 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 23:04:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) In-Reply-To: <20090605124614.P17386@shell.lmi.net> from Fred Cisin at "Jun 5, 9 12:46:57 pm" Message-ID: <200906060604.n5664Q6q021882@floodgap.com> > > Depends on the program. I've only ever done this with an internal FDC > > drive but I don't see a reason why an external USB wouldn't work. > > Has anybody ever seen a USB drive that can do GCR? Never with my own eyes, though I have heard apocryphal mentions of such things. I was referring to writing MFM disk images with a PC FD, which may not have been clear from the context. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- In memory of Douglas Adams ------------------------------------------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Jun 6 01:09:58 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 23:09:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380906052055o6dc4a1bfg2a042dfaff6cc3aa@mail.gmail.com> from Brian Lanning at "Jun 5, 9 10:55:03 pm" Message-ID: <200906060609.n5669wsF023320@floodgap.com> > Control Panels -> TCP/IP (AOL) > This works. Is set it to ethernet and manually and plugged in good values. This is where installing something like WhatRoute or NCSA Telnet would be helpful. > Control Panels -> Appletalk > I set it to ethernet. It says "current zone: no zones available" Not surprising if you have no other AppleTalk hosts on the network. (It would need to be old-style EtherTalk, at that.) > I found file sharing and turned it on. This only works for AppleTalk hosts, at least for 7.6. > And to make matters worse, I noticed that there was an 8.1 > installation in a separate system folder. I found the system folder > picker and switched it to the 8.1 folder. Now the machine won't boot. > I just get the happy face. Is there some bootup key combination that > can undo this? You could try zapping PRAM (Cmd-Opt-P-R as the machine starts up; let it chime a couple times with the keys held down) but this may not help as the bogus System Folder will still be blessed. A sure fix would be to boot from a valid secondary device, but with a bum floppy drive you're really hosed. I'm suspecting the Mac you have was messed up by its previous owner -- a lot of these errors would be inexplicable with normal use. A full reinstall of 7.6 or 8.1 from an external CD-ROM would be strongly advised. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- So what's my point? I don't know, it's fun to talk about. -- Judy Blackburn From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jun 6 01:17:26 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 02:17:26 -0400 Subject: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jun 6, 2009, at 1:42 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>>> Is it possible that the DC-DC converter is playing up? >>> >>> The USB serial devices I've seen have been a 1-chip design - >>> presumably USB, UART, and level converters all on one die, with a >>> few >>> discretes for the DC-DC converter. I don't remember seeing any >>> separate Maxim devices in them. >> >> Ah... I thought I heard of a USB-TTL level async serial chip (i.e. >> you >> need to feed the asynch side through a MAXnnn or similar) and assumed >> that's what was used in these adapters. Probably not. > > I know there are "FTDI"-based USB seriual converters which would > presumably also have either an external MAXnnn or a bunch of discretes > for a charge-pump and level conversion, but I haven't dismantled any > of those. The FTDI USB-interfaced UART that I've designed with, the FT232BM, does not have on-chip level conversion. My design used a MAX232 powered from the system power supply. (the unit was not powered from USB) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jun 6 01:26:00 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 02:26:00 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> <4A2978F2.3000200@gmail.com> <4A29D741.4020905@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Jun 6, 2009, at 12:54 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> Checking on a handy 64-bit Linux system, the gzip binary is under >>> 64K >>> total size, so that might not go so poorly. OTOH, wget is nearly >>> 256K. That will be "fun" to adapt. I recommend paring back >>> unneeded >>> features and learning how overlays work. >> >> But are those executables dynamically linked? If so, wouldn't the >> static >> executables be way larger? > > Ah, yes... right you are. Well... those aren't stripped binaries, so > there's some symbol cruft to clean out. But then in the case of gzip, > there's the issue of the size of any compression matrices vs the size > of the data segment. Indeed, that might be the biggest rub. Find the source code for the original "compress" (the LZW algorithm) and look for the HSIZE preprocessor define. Even LZW is pretty painful in a 16-bit address space. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 12:46:29 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 13:46:29 -0400 Subject: For pickup: VAX-11/750 and RK07 In-Reply-To: References: <200906022258.53816.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200906022316.53813.pat@computer-refuge.org> <4A281FF5.6080005@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 1:27 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > I have five (!) RK07 drives. I want to keep 3 of them, so sooner or > later two drives will have to go (in The Netherlands). > I plan to connect them all to the RK07 Field Test Box to see in what > shape they are. They should all be OK ... They probably are... in my experience, they are very sturdy mechanically and electrically. I was cleaning and prepping for sale a pair of them about 21 years ago.. one was just fine, but when I flipped the breaker on the second one, *huge* amounts of thick black smoke poured out of the PSU. I slapped the breaker off and tipped back the PSU to see what happened - two of the rectifier diodes (1N4007 or similar) were charred and perforated. A few minutes with a DVM narrowed down the problem to a completely-shorted filter cap. It was great that it was held in with #8 bolts, not solder. The "hard part" of the repair was replacing the diodes. Lots of smoke + two $0.07 diodes + one C-battery-sized filter cap == working drive! It was one of the easiest DEC repairs I ever had. -ethan From segin2005 at gmail.com Sat Jun 6 03:49:22 2009 From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Kirn Gill) Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2009 04:49:22 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: <20090604113556.GA27464@Update.UU.SE> References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> <4A278057.30706@machineroom.info> <20090604113556.GA27464@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <4A2A2D92.7020502@gmail.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > On Thu, Jun 04, 2009 at 09:05:43AM +0100, James Wilson wrote: >> As one of the, I suspect, younger members of the list (37) I've >> always fancied a proper blinkenlights 11 but never been in the >> right place at the right time. Compiling "hello world" on real >> hardware is just about the next best thing! > > Not to brag, but I'm 28 :) And I know of two more below 30, but I > guess the average is a bit higher. > > Congrats on the cherrypopping (not something I thought I would say > on this list) > > Cheers, Pontus Pfft, I'm 19, and this is the first time I've ever used a PDP-11. Or 2BSD. I want to play with it, see what (if any) modern software will build on it. Probably GNU project packages, like wget and gzip. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkoqLZEACgkQF9H43UytGibvawCffzNAsWDLpcyY/Ga0XzoPqB0t Lu4AnRzXWDWIBPiNuipIzrw2oTtIe4iW =aniq -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Jun 6 04:22:05 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2009 02:22:05 -0700 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: <4A2A2D92.7020502@gmail.com> References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> <4A278057.30706@machineroom.info> <20090604113556.GA27464@Update.UU.SE> <4A2A2D92.7020502@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A2A353D.90908@brouhaha.com> Kirn Gill wrote: > this is the first time I've ever used a PDP-11. > Or 2BSD. > > I want to play with it, see what (if any) modern software will build > on it. > Probably GNU project packages, like wget and gzip. > Ah! Someone looking for big challenges! I'm not sure about wget, as I've never looked at its source code, but I'll be quite impressed if you get gzip, or even just a generally usable zlib, running on a PDP-11. Eric From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri Jun 5 06:39:51 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 07:39:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Question re: 8" drive form-factor In-Reply-To: <4A28C0C0.3060708@brouhaha.com> References: <4A27336A.7050605@brouhaha.com> <4A28C0C0.3060708@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 4 Jun 2009, Eric Smith wrote: > Steven Hirsch wrote: >> I found the OEM manual on bitsavers and it's actually the 'R' model that >> matches what I believed to the industry form-factor of 8.5" width. The >> "standard" (non-R) model is 9.5" wide. Odd standard, since I've never seen >> another 8" drive that size. > Ah, that was it. They made the "R" model narrower to make it easier to fit > them side by side in a rack. > > I'm guessing that the 9.5" size might match the size of the genuine IBM 33FD, > 43FD, or 53FD drives. Although I have some 53FD drives, I've never taken > them out of the equipment they're installed in, so I haven't had occasion to > measure their dimensions. Intriguing that Shugart actually tooled up for two different die-cast chassis rather than simply providing a wider faceplate and some spacer plates for the 8.5" units. I guess money grew on trees back then. Steve -- From les at hildenbrandt.com Fri Jun 5 07:58:34 2009 From: les at hildenbrandt.com (Les Hildenbrandt) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 06:58:34 -0600 Subject: 8" Floppies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A29167A.8050308@hildenbrandt.com> > > >They're double-sided disks. Not too uncommon. If you want to see some >really strange 8" floppy disks, I have a box of Memorex disks that are >hard-sectored and have the sector/index hole near the outer edge of the >disk, rather than near the rim. > I had a drive that used those disks. I think it was the first 8" drive I had, and was never able to use it. It was a memorex drive as I recall. From bqt at softjar.se Fri Jun 5 03:45:51 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 10:45:51 +0200 Subject: UNIX on PDP-11s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A28DB3F.8050000@softjar.se> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 11:42 AM, John Floren wrote: >> > Interesting, I didn't know a /23 could run V7--all I know for sure is >> > that it works on /45s and /70s. Do you know any other machines it runs >> > on? I'd like to try installing on my 11/73 (KDJ11-A) if possible. > > I think it would come down to disk drivers. If the kernel will run on > an 11/70, there's no difference I can think of off the top of my head > why it wouldn't run on a KDJ-11, unless there's something about the > 22-bit Unibus mapping on the 11/70 vs no mapping on the Qbus. Yikes! No, I would not expect it to work well at all. The first, and most obvious problem is the bus. The Unibus is an 18-bit address bus, while the q-bus is 22-bits. So, an 11/70 have a Unibus map which is involved in all DMA from the Unibus. The q-bus don't have anything like that. This obviously affects all device drivers doing DMA. And then we have the obvious problem that the most likely disks used on V7 would have been massbus disks, which you have no correspondance to on a q-bus. But even with disks of a similar nature, such an RL, there are still differences between the controllers, so that you can't just run the version from a unibus on a q-bus machine without a little modification. I don't know how much features V7 uses, but there are plenty of things in the 11/70 which the KDJ11 don't do. Stack limits are different. The MMU is different (although I don't think anyone uses the 11/70-specific features). Now V7 is old enough to not make much use of the hardware, which still makes it easier to get it running on different machines (no split I/D space, no supervisor mode stuff). So, as always, it is possible, but you can't just drop the software in, and expect it to run. > Disks, though... a 11/73 is likely to have an MSCP disk controller, > but the 11/70 has quite a number of supported disk controllers. True. > I'd look at the 7th Ed. sources and the install process to see what > 7th Ed. is expecting to load onto. You need to rewrite things. There is no way you can get something written for the Unibus, and large memory, work on a q-bus without rewriting some stuff. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at softjar.se Fri Jun 5 03:49:55 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 10:49:55 +0200 Subject: UNIX on PDP-11s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A28DC33.1040201@softjar.se> Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 04/06/2009 19:43, Dave McGuire wrote: >> Wasn't the MSCP driver backported from 2.11BSD to something earlier? >> Hmm, come to think of it, I think that was 2.9BSD, not V7. >> >> Hmm, MSCP on my PDP-11/24. 8-) > > Yes, with a high-speed RD52 for authenticity ;-) Not possible. The only MSCP controller DEC did for Unibus was to SDI (tha UDA50). The only MSCP to MFM controller DEC did was for Q-bus (the RQDX series). 3rd party manufacturers also made MSCP controller for Unibus to SCSI. Might be that something more also exist, but I doubt very much you could find one to MFM. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From jgevaryahu at comcast.net Fri Jun 5 09:22:34 2009 From: jgevaryahu at comcast.net (Jonathan Gevaryahu) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 10:22:34 -0400 Subject: DEC vt52 question: rom dumps Message-ID: <4A292A2A.4060406@comcast.net> Does anyone have a DEC VT52 (or any of the VT5x series really) and the means to read out the 8 firmware PROMS on the rom/uart board, and/or the character ROM? The MESS team is trying to get ahold of this data for preservation/emulation. The PROM chips (according to the schematic on bitsavers: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/terminal/vt52/MP00035_VT52schem.pdf) are 82s129 or pinout compatible with 82s129 (or maybe the open collector 82s126 version?). According to the maintenance manual (also on bitsavers: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/terminal/vt52/EK-VT52-MM-002_maint_Jul78.pdf page titled A-02) there are three different 'prom sets' of this firmware for the vt52 (and since the prom sets can be upgraded, I'm guessing they're socketed). Also, the MESS team is looking for a dump of the character generator rom; there are two versions of this rom, and the chip is an early non-jedec pinout ?mask? rom; the pinout is listed on the schematic on page 43. (It happens to have a nearly identical pinout to the MCM6830A ?eprom? used on the early heathkit et4000 non-a units) Thanks everyone for your time, and have a good day! -- Jonathan Gevaryahu AKA Lord Nightmare jgevaryahu at comcast.net jgevaryahu at hotmail.com From vax at purdue.edu Fri Jun 5 15:14:15 2009 From: vax at purdue.edu (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 16:14:15 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> <4A2978F2.3000200@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200906051614.15873.vax@purdue.edu> On Friday 05 June 2009, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jun 5, 2009, at 3:58 PM, Kirn Gill wrote: > > Well, out of curiosity, I'm going to attempt to build gzip and wget > > on it. I hope it doesn't crash. > > That'll be fun. > > > It's damnably slow, but at least it works. > > Yep. The scary thing is...an OS like RSX-11 or RSTS/E is quite > zippy on a machine like that. Or, RT-11. Though, RT-11 is quite zippy even on an 11/03. :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing -- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcac From derschjo at msu.edu Fri Jun 5 16:53:02 2009 From: derschjo at msu.edu (derschjo at msu.edu) Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 17:53:02 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: <4BB72BDF-E150-4E00-AA3C-88911F55294A@neurotica.com> References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> <4A2978F2.3000200@gmail.com> <4A2985FF.70209@gmail.com> <4BB72BDF-E150-4E00-AA3C-88911F55294A@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20090605175302.187448lmqqcxm85a@mail.msu.edu> Quoting "Dave McGuire" : > On Jun 5, 2009, at 5:12 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>>>> It's damnably slow, but at least it works. >>>> >>>>? Yep.? The scary thing is...an OS like RSX-11 or RSTS/E is quite >>>> zippy on a machine like that. >>> >>> Hmmm.? Porting (or writing a work-alike of) RSX-11 for a newer >>> architecture (suck as PC -- for the low cost) comes to mind. >> >> It would be nice to see just about any OS that wasn't basically POSIX, or >> DOS/Windows running native on a PC. > >? ?ColorForth!! ROM Basic? > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > > From chrise at pobox.com Fri Jun 5 16:53:18 2009 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Fri, 5 Jun 2009 16:53:18 -0500 Subject: TI Silent 700 model 733 manual In-Reply-To: References: <20090604113117.GG5509@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20090605215318.GV8895@n0jcf.net> On Friday (06/05/2009 at 09:55PM +0100), Tony Duell wrote: > > > > I also have a 733 without cassette drives (is that a different model #)? > > It would be nice to have access to the service manual for it. It's been i= > > n > > an attic for about 10 yrs but I plan to bring it back to life real soon. My mistake-- I just fetched the unit from the attic and it is a model 725 not a 733. Sorry for the confusion. Although it was described as a "portable data terminal" and it is built into a large suitcase. One really has to question the definition of portable :-) Man that thing is heavy. And to answer Lar's question about the picture, mine does indeed look exactly like the one here, http://www.digibarn.com/collections/systems/ti-tymshare-100/DSC02096.JPG except that there are no Tymshare logos on it and the metal plate just below the acoustic coupler does not extend all the way to the front. On mine it is only about 2" wide with the carrier detect light directly centered on that plate. Mine also unfortunately, has more of yellow green color now instead of the greenish-grey it was originally. Time takes it toll. It's most definitely a model 725. Serial 725-11237. Part 954783-1. > I'll certainly take a look at the service manual if it ends up on > Bitsavers or somewhere similar. So, I will need to track down a model 725 service manual. The user's manual is still inside the top cover so that is good. > I haev 2 of these terminals... At a radio rally nearly 20 years ago I > bought a KSR version (no tape drives). The seller had 4 old printers, he > started off trying to sell them for a farly high price (\pounds 10.00 > each or something), by the end of the take he too \pounds 5.00 for all 4. > The one I particularly wanted was the Teletpye KSR43, the others with the > TI 733 and a couple of Cnetronics printes (brand, not (just) interface) > with a strange carriage feed mechanism. At the same rally, from another > seller I bought the dual tape drive unit. I didn't realise it would go on > the TI terminal until I got it home, saw the TI logo all over the tape > drive parts, and relaised the 'feet' would fit on top of the terminal if > I remvoed a couple of cover plates. What I didn't have was the cable to > link them. Oh, the tape unt is missing the outer cover but otherwise > seems to be complete/ > > Anyway, about 10 years later a friend of mine had the ASR model, complete > with covers and cable. I asked if I could 'buzz out' the cable and he > gave me the complete device. Now that is a _good_ friend. > So I have one complete ASR model, a KSR one, and the working bits of a > tape unit. > > > > > Oh-- it has a 300 baud acoustic coupler on the side too :-) > > I don't have that. Mine's still there. With the giant "CARRIER DETECT" light-- not LED of course-- right below it. The unit actually powers up and it still types!! Even the paper wasn't totally black from 10 yrs of heat in the attic. Amazing. However, the paper does not feed correctly. On inspection, I've already found that the grease in the little solonoid that lifts the head from the paper when it advances has turned to something more sticky than honey. I'm in the process of addressing that. I also see that the stepper motor that actually turns the platen (or equiv of) is not making a full increment each time. Sometimes it advances but other times it de-advances. So, something it messed up in the stepper circuit or the grease in that stepper motor has turned to honey too. This is a really cool machine though. I grew up with this thing hooked to my first computer (an MEK6800D1 eval board) in 1975. I went through thousands of rolls of thermal paper as I typed in machine code to MIKBUG's '*' prompt one line at time :-) There's no microprocessor in the thing-- not even a UART. It's all done with 7400 TTL and electronically, it's extremely fixable. It's pretty funny but as soon as I took the lid off the Silent 700, the smell of that plastic brought back the same impressions of coolness and excitement I had as a kid. Everything else is on the back burner now-- gotta get this baby printing right! :-) Chris -- Chris Elmquist From lproven at gmail.com Sat Jun 6 08:00:50 2009 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 14:00:50 +0100 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> <4A2978F2.3000200@gmail.com> <4A2985FF.70209@gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0906060600y773232c4qcecd9f0cc66bdba1@mail.gmail.com> 2009/6/5 Zane H. Healy : > > > On Fri, 5 Jun 2009, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> Dave McGuire wrote: >>>> >>>> It's damnably slow, but at least it works. >>> >>> ?Yep. ?The scary thing is...an OS like RSX-11 or RSTS/E is quite zippy on >>> a machine like that. >> >> Hmmm. ?Porting (or writing a work-alike of) RSX-11 for a newer >> architecture (suck as PC -- for the low cost) comes to mind. >> >> Peace... ?Sridhar >> > > It would be nice to see just about any OS that wasn't basically POSIX, or > DOS/Windows running native on a PC. > > Zane How about TSX-32? Commercial, alas, but there's a free demo version. IIRC it's not too happy inside most VMs, though. http://www.sandh.com/sandh.htm Derived or inspired by a PDP-11 OS, TSX, which I think shares some ancestry with RSTS or something. I'm afraid PDPs were a bit before my time - I cut my FORTRAN teeth on a VAX 11/780. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sat Jun 6 08:49:45 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 10:49:45 -0300 Subject: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo References: Message-ID: <064b01c9e6ad$b0dfd6c0$761e19bb@desktaba> >> I know there are "FTDI"-based USB seriual converters which would >> presumably also have either an external MAXnnn or a bunch of discretes >> for a charge-pump and level conversion, but I haven't dismantled any >> of those. > The FTDI USB-interfaced UART that I've designed with, the FT232BM, > does not have on-chip level conversion. My design used a MAX232 > powered from the system power supply. (the unit was not powered from > USB) Small tip here: The FT-232 chip is a hell of expensive. Buy an old NOKIA data cable (one with the fun port connector) or like (siemens, maxom, any very old data cable) for $1 and you have the USB-to-TTL-Serial(needs max-232 to be a full usb to rs-232 cable) for a cheap. I do it everyday here. Greetz from Brazil, PU1BZZ Alexandre From lproven at gmail.com Sat Jun 6 09:24:10 2009 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 15:24:10 +0100 Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) In-Reply-To: <200906051729.n55HTlAp022562@floodgap.com> References: <6dbe3c380906051015h519bf7f2ue91d5c17ad709bd5@mail.gmail.com> <200906051729.n55HTlAp022562@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <575131af0906060724s2fc6717cx8a04134ade8e3f@mail.gmail.com> 2009/6/5 Cameron Kaiser : >> > > I have the AAUI connector. I'm thinking it's working since I get a >> > > light on the hub. _I was able to switch it from appletalk to tcp/ip >> > > and set it to dhcp, but it looks like it didn't even try to ask for an >> > > ip address. >> > >> > I've never used MacTCP for DHCP. Assign it a static address first and >> > see how far you get. >> >> ok. ?I'm lost without a command line. ?Is there a version of ping in >> there somewhere? ?What about samba/windows shares or maybe ftp? > > You should be able to assign it a static address from the More... screen. > That doesn't work? > > As far as Windows shares, I *think* there was something that would run on > 7.6, but good luck finding it. Not 100% sure if it ran on a version that old, but the 2 main contenders were Thursby Software's DAVE and Connectix' DoubleTalk. As luck would have it, I've been trying to give away a copy of DoubleTalk on the LowEndMac swaps list for ages. Free for the cost of postage from the UK. :?) No idea if a demo of DAVE is still available anywhere... I believe the makers are still around, selling tools to enhance ActiveDirectory integration on Mac OS X. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Sat Jun 6 09:42:40 2009 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 15:42:40 +0100 Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380906042247p488bb10ete9fa7d369fb304b0@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380906042247p488bb10ete9fa7d369fb304b0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0906060742j3fda34bfl418f5c23fd7ca811@mail.gmail.com> 2009/6/5 Brian Lanning : > So I got around to hooking some things up and seeing what works. ?I > have a quadra 700 with system 7.6 on it. ?I also had a 7 bay scsi > enclosure lying around, a couple scsi hard drives, and a slot loading > dvd drive. > > My goal here is first to get the quadra on the network so I can share > files with it. ?Also, I'd like to be able to read CDs or DVDs from the > quadra. ?Once one of those is successful, I plan to use ADT to > transfer a prodos or apple 3.3 dos disk image to an apple 2gs over a > serial cable, then create a bootable floppy for my 2e. ?:-P ? lol. > It's looking like a fun project. > > I should note that I have zero floppy disks for the mac or apple > 2e/2gs. ?So this is sort of a fun boot-strapping project to see if I > can get there from here. > > Much to my surprise, the quadra 700 detected the two scsi hard drives > and dvd drive. ?The quadra already had some scsi utilities and each of > the drives show up. ?One of them has a mount button, but it refuses to > mount a CD in the DVD drive. ?No surprise there I guess. ?Any idea how > I can get the machine to mount a CD or DVD? ?I might have a > termination problem. ?I have this black centronics thingy with the > apple logo on it. ?It sort of looks like a terminator, but you can > plug another centronics cable into the back of it, so I'm doubting > it's a terminator. > > Networking doesn't seem to work. ?I get a light on the hub, but it > doesn't seem interested in letting me get to the network. ?The machine > has Timbuktu installed, but the open menu option is ghosted out. ?The > info menu option works, but nothing is listed on the networking tab. > I found this link: ?http://www.atpm.com/network/files/file_sharing.htm > ?The menu options they talk about are missing. ?I have some > applescript menu options somewhere else that talk about turning on > file sharing, but they don't work either. ?I'm thinking I might need > to reinstall the system software at some point. ?Any tips on how I can > get this machine on the network? > > I suspect the floppy drive is bad. ?I put a new HD floppy in the > drive. ?It detects it as a 1.4meg floppy disk, but formatting doesn't > work. ?It claims the disk is bad. ?I have another drive in the IIfx > that I might try swapping in to see if I can get the floppy drive > working. ?I copied a dos file to the floppy as a test to see if I > could get the mac to read it. ?No luck. ?It wants to format the disk. > Any ideas on how I can be able to share floppies between the PC and > mac? ?I know the mac drives are a little odd. > > fun stuff. Quadra 700 - so it's a 25MHz 68040. How much RAM has it got? http://lowendmac.com/quadra/quadra-700.html I'd strongly suggest, as others have observed, wiping it & installing MacOS 8.1. It's got much better TCP/IP handling and also better handling of alien disk formats. You might even have a chance of recognising and handling a DVD, though I wouldn't put money on it. A bit more info as to why: http://lowendmac.com/sable/06/0911.html 8.1 boot CDs are rare. It's easier to get a copy of 8.0 and download and install the free 8.1 update, which Apple still offers. If you're really stuck, I might be able to find a spare CD of 8.0 somewhere for you. It'll still require 3rd party tools to talk to a Windows network, though. If you have NT Server, though, it has a Mac file-sharing mode, even back in NT3. That will work fine. To access a non-Apple optical drive, you either need a 3rd party driver or a hacked version of the Apple driver.There's a guide here: http://www.kan.org/6100/cd.html & a little more here: http://macfaq.org/hardware/media.shtml For 3rd party hard disks, you also need a 3rd party tool, although it's not a driver as such - it's just a partitioner/formatter. (Technically, it embeds the driver into the partition structure of the drive, so the MacOS automatically loads it the 1st time that it sees the drive. This is transparent - you can even boot off such a drive.) I use SilverLining but there's also a LaCie tool and various others - most vendors of 3rd party SCSI hard disks offered them. In my experience, reading non-Mac CDs on Classic MacOS is very iffy, especially if they're home-burned ones. I've never found an adequate way around this. It's /supposed/ to work but often won't. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Jun 6 09:02:07 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 10:02:07 -0400 Subject: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo In-Reply-To: <064b01c9e6ad$b0dfd6c0$761e19bb@desktaba> References: <064b01c9e6ad$b0dfd6c0$761e19bb@desktaba> Message-ID: On Sat, Jun 6, 2009 at 9:49 AM, Alexandre Souza wrote: > ? Small tip here: > > ? The FT-232 chip is a hell of expensive. I wouldn't say it was that expensive - USB-to-TTL-serial cables are $20 new here, and they are quite tidy and end in a dressed 0.1" header. For me, it's more of a case of being too fine-pitched for easy breadboarding and I'm usually too lazy to cut a fresh board just for USB-serial, so I use the ready-to-go cables. > Buy an old NOKIA data cable (one > with the fun port connector) or like (siemens, maxom, any very old data > cable) for $1 and you have the USB-to-TTL-Serial(needs max-232 to be a full > usb to rs-232 cable) for a cheap. Can you point me to pictures of such cables? I see phone adapters at the thrift stores every time I go, and I don't mind hacking a $1 cable (which is what they are here, too) to save $20. I just don't know exactly what I'm looking for. "the fun port connector" doesn't mean much to me - I've never owned a Nokia phone (in fact, I've only owned two cell phones in 10 years, so I'm _not_ the right person for knowing different vendors' quirks). These data cables have an FTDI chip in them, but what identifier do they send to the host? I do some USB development (for LCD screens) and have run across a number of questions raised about serial drivers and chips not matching up and having to reset the identifiers and such (or hack the driver to look for the "right" thing). Thanks, -ethan From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Jun 6 11:50:23 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 12:50:23 -0400 Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) References: <6dbe3c380906042247p488bb10ete9fa7d369fb304b0@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0906060742j3fda34bfl418f5c23fd7ca811@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Liam Proven" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 10:42 AM Subject: Re: Classic mac fun (and some questions) OS 7.1 is fast and with Opentransport 1.1.1 and 1.1.2 update (both available on Apples website) you have DHCP for networking. If you have plenty of RAM and want to have greater then 2GB bootable partitions then OS 8.1 is the way to go. OS 7.6.1 can do 2GB for boot drives and larger for extra drives. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 6 12:10:05 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 18:10:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: UNIX on PDP-11s In-Reply-To: <4A28DC33.1040201@softjar.se> from "Johnny Billquist" at Jun 5, 9 10:49:55 am Message-ID: > >> Hmm, MSCP on my PDP-11/24. 8-) > > > > Yes, with a high-speed RD52 for authenticity ;-) > > Not possible. The only MSCP controller DEC did for Unibus was to SDI > (tha UDA50). The only MSCP to MFM controller DEC did was for Q-bus (the > RQDX series). What happens if you put a DW11B (Unius - Qbus interface) in the Unibus machine and connect the Qbus side of that to an RQDXm? Obviously it can only support 18 it DMA, but it does support that. I know for a fact that you can use an RLV11 on a Unibus machine that way, I did it on an 11/45 with no problems. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 6 12:17:35 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 18:17:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: For pickup: VAX-11/750 and RK07 In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Jun 5, 9 01:46:29 pm Message-ID: > > I plan to connect them all to the RK07 Field Test Box to see in what > > shape they are. They should all be OK ... > > They probably are... in my experience, they are very sturdy > mechanically and electrically. Indeeed. My second RK07 was given to me after it was flooded by a leaking water pipe (no, it wasn't powered up at the time). I figured some its might still be good in it. Anyway, when I took it off the stand to get it home, water came out of the mouting screw holes. The hollow base plate/air duct was full of water. I took it apart and cleaned and dried it. Everything looked OK, so I fired up the PSU. It worked. Added the logic boards. Everything seemd to work. So for a laugh I put in a scratch pack, fully expecting a head crash. No, the heads loaded with no prolems. And it worked (and works) fine... > > I was cleaning and prepping for sale a pair of them about 21 years > ago.. one was just fine, but when I flipped the breaker on the second > one, *huge* amounts of thick black smoke poured out of the PSU. I > slapped the breaker off and tipped back the PSU to see what happened - > two of the rectifier diodes (1N4007 or similar) were charred and > perforated. A few minutes with a DVM narrowed down the problem to a > completely-shorted filter cap. It was great that it was held in with > #8 bolts, not solder. The "hard part" of the repair was replacing the > diodes. > > Lots of smoke + two $0.07 diodes + one C-battery-sized filter cap == > working drive! Excellent... Reminds me of the time smoke poured out of a 3rd party (Plessey IIRC) Unibus expanison box. It was clearly coming from the PSU area and I thought I could see something glowing orange inside. Turns out (after takign the PSU apart) that a bridge recifier had shorted and the orange glow was the wires linking that to the transformer -- all the insulation had burnt off and they were more than red hot. Replaced the rectifier and thw wires, no problems... -tony From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sat Jun 6 12:14:33 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 14:14:33 -0300 Subject: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo References: <064b01c9e6ad$b0dfd6c0$761e19bb@desktaba> Message-ID: <079b01c9e6cb$a55b6670$761e19bb@desktaba> (fast answer, I'm doing barbecue here, anyone served? :D) >Can you point me to pictures of such cables? I see phone adapters at >the thrift stores every time I go, and I don't mind hacking a $1 cable >(which is what they are here, too) to save $20. I just don't know >exactly what I'm looking for. "the fun port connector" doesn't mean >much to me - I've never owned a Nokia phone (in fact, I've only owned >two cell phones in 10 years, so I'm _not_ the right person for knowing >different vendors' quirks). Since this info may interest other people, I'll do a small page with photos, drivers, etc and put it online, hope to do it this night, hold on. >These data cables have an FTDI chip in them, but what identifier do >they send to the host? I do some USB development (for LCD screens) >and have run across a number of questions raised about serial drivers >and chips not matching up and having to reset the identifiers and such >(or hack the driver to look for the "right" thing). Usually they use the prolific chipset, I'll send more detailed info later today Gfb Alexandre, PU1BZZ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 6 12:22:06 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 18:22:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at Jun 5, 9 02:12:34 pm Message-ID: > It would be nice to see just about any OS that wasn't basically POSIX, or > DOS/Windows running native on a PC. ROM BASIC? (Technically, it performs some of the functions of an OS) Standalone Forth? (there must be at least one..) UCSD P-system? CP/M-86? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 6 12:28:04 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 18:28:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: TI Silent 700 model 733 manual In-Reply-To: <20090605215318.GV8895@n0jcf.net> from "Chris Elmquist" at Jun 5, 9 04:53:18 pm Message-ID: > However, the paper does not feed correctly. On inspection, I've already > found that the grease in the little solonoid that lifts the head from the > paper when it advances has turned to something more sticky than honey. > I'm in the process of addressing that. This is a well-known problem on all sorts of devices. Someitmes the grease will soften with common solvents (propan-2-ol, etc). There's a green grease used in some camera lans mounts that goes rock hard with age and nothing wil shift it short of scraping it out.... > I also see that the stepper motor that actually turns the platen (or equiv > of) is not making a full increment each time. Sometimes it advances but > other times it de-advances. So, something it messed up in the stepper > circuit or the grease in that stepper motor has turned to honey too. Maybe you've lost the drive to one of hte stepper phases. That can make them step in thwe wrong direction sometimes. > > This is a really cool machine though. I grew up with this thing hooked > to my first computer (an MEK6800D1 eval board) in 1975. I went through > thousands of rolls of thermal paper as I typed in machine code to MIKBUG's > '*' prompt one line at time :-) > > There's no microprocessor in the thing-- not even a UART. It's all done > with 7400 TTL and electronically, it's extremely fixable. The 733 is like that too, although there's probably at least one ROM (the character generator). From what I rmember there's a cardcage of PCBs between the 2 tape drives in the ASR add-on (behind the swtich/LED panel in the middle -- in fact I think that's mounted on the frontmost PCB in the cage). Anyway, about the most complicated chip on those boards is a little bipolar RAM. No microprocessor. > > It's pretty funny but as soon as I took the lid off the Silent 700, > the smell of that plastic brought back the same impressions of coolness > and excitement I had as a kid. > > Everything else is on the back burner now-- gotta get this baby > printing right! :-) I'm almost convinced to dig mine out and have a go with it... Too many projects, not enough bench space... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 6 12:30:36 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 18:30:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: Further 11/40 unibus questions... In-Reply-To: <4A29A058.1010604@databasics.us> from "Warren Wolfe" at Jun 5, 9 12:46:48 pm Message-ID: > Long ago, I bought a Heathkit color television -- it was gorgeous. > Needed some work. Also, while I was contemplating buying it, the owner > offered to throw in a 'scope, too. It had never worked he said. The > screen was "grainy" and a new tube cost too much. I accepted. The > television was easy to fix (Heathkit, I said). > > But, when I fired up the 'scope, I was shocked. He was right. The > scope image could be focused, but it never got clear. It looked like > the phosphor was painted on the tube with a roller. Then, I had to > laugh.... > > I took off the bezel, pulled off the graticule screen, and peeled the > tyvek sticky paper off the back of the plastic screen, and voila! A > nice clear trace. ROFL!! I wodnered why complex electronic instruments came with such losing manuals, after all, surely the sort of person to buy a 'scope or logic analuyser has more than 2 working braincells. Now I know... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 6 12:31:17 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 18:31:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: wire wrap machine pins In-Reply-To: <4A299B2F.2040004@databasics.us> from "Warren Wolfe" at Jun 5, 9 12:24:47 pm Message-ID: > > Eric Smith wrote: > > A short piece of copper tubing and a hammer work wonders. > > Right! The same is true in labor negotiations, as well.... And a reasonable substitue for a clue-by-four... -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jun 6 12:54:31 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 13:54:31 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <71D88B8A-9200-41F9-BF59-619FB74E44F0@neurotica.com> On Jun 6, 2009, at 1:22 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > Standalone Forth? (there must be at least one..) I've played with ColorForth and RetroForth, they're both rather interesting. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jun 6 12:58:51 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2009 10:58:51 -0700 Subject: For pickup: VAX-11/750 and RK07 In-Reply-To: References: from "Ethan Dicks" at Jun 5, 9 01:46:29 pm, Message-ID: <4A2A4BEB.8969.1A2FB903@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Jun 2009 at 18:17, Tony Duell wrote: > Reminds me of the time smoke poured out of a 3rd party (Plessey IIRC) > Unibus expanison box. It was clearly coming from the PSU area and I > thought I could see something glowing orange inside. Turns out (after > takign the PSU apart) that a bridge recifier had shorted and the > orange glow was the wires linking that to the transformer -- all the > insulation had burnt off and they were more than red hot. Replaced the > rectifier and thw wires, no problems... That UPS I wrote about a couple of days ago turned out to have a similar problem that should have resulted in magic smoke, but a thoughtful engineer saved me from that. An inspection of the curcuit showed that the UPS will not engage when powered on unless the batteries (4x12v wet cell lead-acid) are supplying current. Once energized, the unit will supply power as long as AC power is present (allows you to change batteries without interrupting power). The batteries were flat. A test with an automotive battery charger/tester showed that all would hold a full charge. What caused my unit to brick was a shorted 1000uF 100V filter cap in the charging circuit. But no bulging cans, magic smoke or any other sign that anything was wrong. An ECO had been added at some time that included a 20A fuse in the secondary of the inverter transformer. Said fuse was in a holder tucked away under a nest of wires attached to the inside front panel with an adhesive cable tie. The unit kept operating until a thunderstorm caused the power to glitch momentarily. With no battery power, the unit would not power- cycle when the line supply recovered. That fuse could have blown months ago without showing any outward sign. Once the (blown) fuse was discovered, it was pretty obvious that something upstream was wrong. A quick check with an ohmmeter turned up the bad cap. The charging circuit is pretty crude by modern standards--an LM317K TO3 regulator on a large (4"x6") heatsink with a 50W zener and a thermostatic switch. It could probably benefit with some upgrading to a "smarter" circuit. This UPS has been in continuous service since 1989. --Chuck From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sat Jun 6 13:00:24 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 15:00:24 -0300 Subject: For pickup: VAX-11/750 and RK07 References: Message-ID: <081101c9e6d1$744bfc60$761e19bb@desktaba> > I took it apart and cleaned and dried it. Everything looked OK, so I fired > up the PSU. It worked. Added the logic boards. Everything seemd to work. > So for a laugh I put in a scratch pack, fully expecting a head crash. No, > the heads loaded with no prolems. And it worked (and works) fine... Usually, water does no damage IF the equipment is unpowered AND it is properly dried up before powering From segin2005 at gmail.com Sat Jun 6 13:10:41 2009 From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Kirn Gill) Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2009 14:10:41 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> <4A2978F2.3000200@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A2AB121.7040600@gmail.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 3:58 PM, Kirn Gill > wrote: >> Well, out of curiosity, I'm going to attempt to build gzip and >> wget on it. I hope it doesn't crash. > > It probably won't crash, but the compiler might or might not be > able to wedge all that code into the available code space. > > Checking on a handy 64-bit Linux system, the gzip binary is under > 64K total size, so that might not go so poorly. OTOH, wget is > nearly 256K. That will be "fun" to adapt. I recommend paring back > unneeded features and learning how overlays work. > > I can just about guarantee that you'll have Makefile issues for > projects large enough or new enough to use configure scripts. Back > in the day, we crufted Makefiles by hand and edited source from > other variants of UNIX to make them work in our own environments. > That's why we have configure scripts now - you don't have to know > as many fiddly details and you can gather, configure and compile > projects with an absolute minimum of human input. > >> I've never used anything from this era before, in terms of >> "capable" computers. Apple ]['s don't count. > > I started with BASIC and Assembler on the 6502, and the Apple II > counts (to me) because I earned my living off of it for nearly a > year. After that place closed (due to external factors like our > publisher, Reader's Digest, changing direction radically), I > learned C on an 11/750 (VMS 3.x and 4.0BSD, when they were new). > Wow, what a difference. > > I think you should give it a shot, but when you run into problems > and issues, just remember that back in that era, we all ran into > the same sorts of roadblocks and issues all the time, especially > 16-bit-pointer issues with the PDP-11. Some of that wisdom is > still available to search through in Usenet archives, but ISTR the > rise of Usenet and the rise of 32-bit computing are somewhat > intertwined. 16-bit computing was still around, of course, but in > the DEC world, it was vastly tilted towards RSX and RSTS and RT-11, > not so much with Unix by the mid 1980s. You might also get some > good advice looking into Minix issues - the 286 isn't close to > identical to the PDP-11, but 16 bits is 16 bits. Even reading up > on code development on MS-DOS will be illuminating (before the > advent of "32-bit extenders"). > > Linux started on a 386, bypassing these sorts of growing pains, so > experience gained there is mostly only helpful for user-level > familiarity, not working through small memory model compiling > issues. > > -ethan > > > -ethan I've messed with Minix on a 286; I used to keep a copy of i86 Minix with the DOSMINIX laucher on a flash drive because it would run on NTVDM (Windows NT's DOS VM). I've also messed with DOS programming. It's a pain and a half and I avoided it like the plague; DOS is dead and not of any intristic value unless you enjoy playing corny-looking games or running horrid multitasking GUIs made by Microsoft. I know enough C to make compilers shut up when porting code; I have tried writing software on my own and I can show you some failed attempts I just left behind (also due to lack of motivation, I get tired of doing all the work myself) If the /pointers/ on a PDP-11 are 16-bit as well, then I know what I am up against. I've done a bit of coding with ELKS and (aforementioned) Minix for pre-386 chips. I wouldn't write any software on the machine, there's nothing useful I can think of writing that I would actually deal with using. The fact that the local 'vi' doesn't respond to ANSI/VT100 directional keys, and only responds to h, j, k, l instead is enough to make me hate it. And no, that's not going to motivate me to write a better editor. I don't know how. If I did, I would have already done it and the holy Emacs vs. Vi war would have been over, both sides having both lost. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkoqsSAACgkQF9H43UytGiZybACfSnYD40kWotXU0Wgpo1VoS6Tc ewUAn3C4TJ7qZk5DV7FQ53y1DcV3ErkY =2M26 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jun 6 13:12:54 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2009 11:12:54 -0700 Subject: wire wrap machine pins In-Reply-To: References: <4A299B2F.2040004@databasics.us> from "Warren Wolfe" at Jun 5, 9 12:24:47 pm, Message-ID: <4A2A4F36.17120.1A3C9540@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Jun 2009 at 18:31, Tony Duell wrote: > > > A short piece of copper tubing and a hammer work wonders. > > > > Right! The same is true in labor negotiations, as well.... > > And a reasonable substitue for a clue-by-four... I machined a tool for this from a piece of 1/4" brass rod. A light tap on the end with a rawhide hammer does the trick without bending the pin. --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jun 6 13:50:44 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 14:50:44 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: <200906051614.15873.vax@purdue.edu> References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> <4A2978F2.3000200@gmail.com> <200906051614.15873.vax@purdue.edu> Message-ID: <7F6649CA-BCB5-48E4-B50D-F214CE097715@neurotica.com> On Jun 5, 2009, at 4:14 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >>> Well, out of curiosity, I'm going to attempt to build gzip and wget >>> on it. I hope it doesn't crash. >> >> That'll be fun. >> >>> It's damnably slow, but at least it works. >> >> Yep. The scary thing is...an OS like RSX-11 or RSTS/E is quite >> zippy on a machine like that. > > Or, RT-11. Though, RT-11 is quite zippy even on an 11/03. :) Yebbut...RT-11 doesn't really do a whole lot. ;) I'm a RSTS/E and RSX-11 man. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jun 6 13:50:56 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 14:50:56 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: <20090605175302.187448lmqqcxm85a@mail.msu.edu> References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> <4A2978F2.3000200@gmail.com> <4A2985FF.70209@gmail.com> <4BB72BDF-E150-4E00-AA3C-88911F55294A@neurotica.com> <20090605175302.187448lmqqcxm85a@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <37E4B28F-5090-4D85-8645-3A7159916585@neurotica.com> On Jun 5, 2009, at 5:53 PM, derschjo at msu.edu wrote: >>>>>> It's damnably slow, but at least it works. >>>>> >>>>> Yep. The scary thing is...an OS like RSX-11 or RSTS/E is quite >>>>> zippy on a machine like that. >>>> >>>> Hmmm. Porting (or writing a work-alike of) RSX-11 for a newer >>>> architecture (suck as PC -- for the low cost) comes to mind. >>> >>> It would be nice to see just about any OS that wasn't basically >>> POSIX, or >>> DOS/Windows running native on a PC. >> >> ColorForth!! > > ROM Basic? Sick. SICK! -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Jun 6 13:59:26 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2009 11:59:26 -0700 Subject: Stupid problems / was Re: Further 11/40 unibus questions... References: Message-ID: <4A2ABC8D.88204AC3@cs.ubc.ca> Warren Wolfe wrote: > But, when I fired up the 'scope, I was shocked. He was right. The > scope image could be focused, but it never got clear. It looked like > the phosphor was painted on the tube with a roller. Then, I had to > laugh.... > > I took off the bezel, pulled off the graticule screen, and peeled the > tyvek sticky paper off the back of the plastic screen, and voila! A > nice clear trace. As a kid, my first scope (a low-end tube-based TV servicing scope) developed a problem with 60Hz noise in the trace, that is, even with the V input shorted, there would still be a slight 60Hz sine wave on the trace rather than flat. The problem was intermittent as well. Opened it up (of course the problem went away when opened), tried to diagnose it as much as possible (now that I didn't have a scope to diagnose with). No luck. I suffered with the problem for ages, then finally clued in that my bench/lab power supply - which of course contained a power transformer which of course would generate a magnetic field - was sitting on top of the scope, just above the CRT. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Jun 6 14:00:35 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2009 13:00:35 -0600 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: <37E4B28F-5090-4D85-8645-3A7159916585@neurotica.com> References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> <4A2978F2.3000200@gmail.com> <4A2985FF.70209@gmail.com> <4BB72BDF-E150-4E00-AA3C-88911F55294A@neurotica.com> <20090605175302.187448lmqqcxm85a@mail.msu.edu> <37E4B28F-5090-4D85-8645-3A7159916585@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4A2ABCD3.2050906@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jun 5, 2009, at 5:53 PM, derschjo at msu.edu wrote: >>>>>>> It's damnably slow, but at least it works. >>>>>> >>>>>> Yep. The scary thing is...an OS like RSX-11 or RSTS/E is quite >>>>>> zippy on a machine like that. >>>>> >>>>> Hmmm. Porting (or writing a work-alike of) RSX-11 for a newer >>>>> architecture (suck as PC -- for the low cost) comes to mind. >>>> >>>> It would be nice to see just about any OS that wasn't basically >>>> POSIX, or >>>> DOS/Windows running native on a PC. >>> >>> ColorForth!! >> >> ROM Basic? > > Sick. SICK! > rom FOCAL :) From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jun 6 14:04:46 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 15:04:46 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: <4A2AB121.7040600@gmail.com> References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> <4A2978F2.3000200@gmail.com> <4A2AB121.7040600@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Jun 6, 2009, at 2:10 PM, Kirn Gill wrote: > And no, that's not going to motivate me to write a better editor. I > don't know how. If I did, I would have already done it and the holy > Emacs vs. Vi war would have been over, both sides having both lost. Emacs won that war ages ago. ;) [dave dives for cover] But seriously...Editors are usually complex, but they don't always have to be. I've done a lot of work with CamelForth on Z80 (I have two homebrew SBCs running it) and have added mass storage support to it. In support of that, I needed an editor. I wrote a very basic full-screen editor in Z80 assembler. I must emphasize that it is VERY basic, and it is very much tied to Forth system usage, but the assembler source file is only 728 lines long. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jun 6 14:11:44 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 15:11:44 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: <4A2ABCD3.2050906@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> <4A2978F2.3000200@gmail.com> <4A2985FF.70209@gmail.com> <4BB72BDF-E150-4E00-AA3C-88911F55294A@neurotica.com> <20090605175302.187448lmqqcxm85a@mail.msu.edu> <37E4B28F-5090-4D85-8645-3A7159916585@neurotica.com> <4A2ABCD3.2050906@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <9DA2C4FA-D147-46F6-B8C9-B18AED0784BD@neurotica.com> On Jun 6, 2009, at 3:00 PM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >>>>>>>> It's damnably slow, but at least it works. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Yep. The scary thing is...an OS like RSX-11 or RSTS/E is >>>>>>> quite >>>>>>> zippy on a machine like that. >>>>>> >>>>>> Hmmm. Porting (or writing a work-alike of) RSX-11 for a newer >>>>>> architecture (suck as PC -- for the low cost) comes to mind. >>>>> >>>>> It would be nice to see just about any OS that wasn't basically >>>>> POSIX, or >>>>> DOS/Windows running native on a PC. >>>> >>>> ColorForth!! >>> >>> ROM Basic? >> Sick. SICK! > rom FOCAL :) [head explodes] -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 6 14:08:41 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 20:08:41 +0100 (BST) Subject: For pickup: VAX-11/750 and RK07 In-Reply-To: <4A2A4BEB.8969.1A2FB903@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 6, 9 10:58:51 am Message-ID: > > On 6 Jun 2009 at 18:17, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Reminds me of the time smoke poured out of a 3rd party (Plessey IIRC) > > Unibus expanison box. It was clearly coming from the PSU area and I > > thought I could see something glowing orange inside. Turns out (after > > takign the PSU apart) that a bridge recifier had shorted and the > > orange glow was the wires linking that to the transformer -- all the > > insulation had burnt off and they were more than red hot. Replaced the > > rectifier and thw wires, no problems... > > That UPS I wrote about a couple of days ago turned out to have a > similar problem that should have resulted in magic smoke, but a > thoughtful engineer saved me from that. Yes, fuses are very useful for protecting things like transformers and wiring harnesses. On the other hand, expensive power semiconductors are useful for protecting fuses ;-) > The charging circuit is pretty crude by modern standards--an LM317K > TO3 regulator on a large (4"x6") heatsink with a 50W zener and a What's tyhe 50W zener for, given you have a regualtor chip? > thermostatic switch. It could probably benefit with some upgrading > to a "smarter" circuit. > > This UPS has been in continuous service since 1989. Well, if it's been working for 20 years with no problems, I am not sure any 'upgrade' is going to be that beneficial :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jun 6 14:10:21 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 20:10:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: wire wrap machine pins In-Reply-To: <4A2A4F36.17120.1A3C9540@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 6, 9 11:12:54 am Message-ID: > > On 6 Jun 2009 at 18:31, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > A short piece of copper tubing and a hammer work wonders. > > > > > > Right! The same is true in labor negotiations, as well.... > > > > And a reasonable substitue for a clue-by-four... > > I machined a tool for this from a piece of 1/4" brass rod. A light For what? Remoing wire-wrap contacts, or 'educating' lusers? > tap on the end with a rawhide hammer does the trick without bending > the pin. -tony From brianlanning at gmail.com Sat Jun 6 14:13:00 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 14:13:00 -0500 Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) In-Reply-To: <200906060609.n5669wsF023320@floodgap.com> References: <6dbe3c380906052055o6dc4a1bfg2a042dfaff6cc3aa@mail.gmail.com> <200906060609.n5669wsF023320@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380906061213u7d229f9euc33cf5c5f4a6d8f5@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Jun 6, 2009 at 1:09 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > You could try zapping PRAM (Cmd-Opt-P-R as the machine starts up; let it > chime a couple times with the keys held down) but this may not help as the > bogus System Folder will still be blessed. A sure fix would be to boot > from a valid secondary device, but with a bum floppy drive you're really > hosed. I'll try this tonight. > I'm suspecting the Mac you have was messed up by its previous owner -- a > lot of these errors would be inexplicable with normal use. A full reinstall > of 7.6 or 8.1 from an external CD-ROM would be strongly advised. An apple CDROM drive, like the 300 or 600 is on the shopping list. Any ideas where I can get a OS image I can burn from vista? Also, which version would be best on a quadra 700? I've heard that 7.6 was best for performance, but I care less about performance and more about functionality. Is there an advantage to upgrading to 8.1? The scsi hard drive that's in there now is a smaller capacity, but it's half-height, slightly too big for the case. The top latches in place, but you have to bend it slightly to do that. I have a 1gig scsi drive(1" high, quantum iirc) from an amiga that I can use instead. If I'm going to reinstall the OS, maybe I should go that route. Anything I should consider before trying to do that? Does anyone make a scsi floppy drive that I could put in my external enclosure? Do these even exist? What about zip/jaz/syquest drives? Is it possible to install 7.6 or 8.1, then pull the hard drive and attach it to a PC, mount the mac parition, and copy a large number of disk images over? I have a PCI adaptec scsi controller floating around somwhere. What about booting from an ubuntu CD? Another angle is the adaptec scsi disk in a PC, copy files over, mount the disk on a mac. I have another 100gig disk I could use for this. Are there any non-mac file systems that the mac can mount, like maybe fat32? Also, where can I buy two new/refurb mac floppy drives? thanks brian From dm561 at torfree.net Sat Jun 6 14:34:21 2009 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 15:34:21 -0400 Subject: Inappropriate remarks (Was Fwd: Mystery object... ) Message-ID: <01C9E6BC.48A23580@MSE_D03> Date: Fri, 05 Jun 2009 13:02:52 -1000 From: Warren Wolfe Subject: Re: Inappropriate remarks (Was Fwd: Mystery object... ) M H Stein wrote: > Boy, tough crowd! > > So, do you guys go around to funerals in your spare time wearing funny hats and > telling the bereaved mother that her son's untimely death is insignificant compared > to the starving kids in Africa, and besides, he would have died some day anyway? > And when someone suggests that's a bit inappropriate you deck 'em? > Aw, you've been spying on me. No fair. > Inability to empathize is often the result of a brain injury; had any bad bumps > on the head lately? > And, this is you demonstrating tact and appropriate behavior, Lumpy? Warren -----------Reply: Well, the original "humorous" comments didn't bother me much, but I did find it puzzling and disturbing to subsequently read that unless we ourselves had lost someone it is *offensive* and we have no business asking for a little consideration for those who did, that while the twin tower and Katrina victims (Americans, incidentally) deserve our respect the 200+ folks lost on the way from Brazil to France apparently don't, and that since everybody dies one day anyway what's the fuss about. That does seem to demonstrate a lack of empathy, which is generally considered as a possible mental aberration, so I was just looking for a plausible explanation that would allow *me* to empathize with the folks expressing the above views, assuming they weren't just trolling. If the folks in question really did suffer from head injuries, then they do have my sympathy and I apologize. A fascinating and disturbing glimpse into different perspectives... m From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Sat Jun 6 14:39:56 2009 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2009 15:39:56 -0400 Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380906061213u7d229f9euc33cf5c5f4a6d8f5@mail.gmail.co m> References: <200906060609.n5669wsF023320@floodgap.com> <6dbe3c380906052055o6dc4a1bfg2a042dfaff6cc3aa@mail.gmail.com> <200906060609.n5669wsF023320@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20090606153239.04f1b8c8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Brian Lanning may have mentioned these words: >Does anyone make a scsi floppy drive that I could put in my external >enclosure? Do these even exist? What about zip/jaz/syquest drives? The only ones I know of were used in DEC machines, it was a standard floppy drive mounted into a "bridge board" which endowed the lowly floppy with "Super SCSI Powers!" ;-) They're tough to find (well, maybe not _around here_) and I do not know if they supported booting from them; but they do exist. In times past, I owned SCSI Zip drives, one each internal & external. Not sure if I even still have them; but they certainly exist and might be easy (if not cheap) to acquire thru ePay. I had kept the internal one for one of my CoCos "just in case" I acquired a SCSI card for it, but now that I have IDE, I'm torn whether to set it up with an available IDE zip drive I have, setup an IDE Castlewood Orb for that purpose, or inform my wife that I "Really Need[TM]" an upgrade for a my Nikon D70, so I could use my 1G compact flash cards currently allocated to that task for the CoCo. Hope this helps, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | Anarchy doesn't scale well. -- Me zmerch at 30below.com. | SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers From brianlanning at gmail.com Sat Jun 6 14:48:34 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 14:48:34 -0500 Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20090606153239.04f1b8c8@mail.30below.com> References: <6dbe3c380906052055o6dc4a1bfg2a042dfaff6cc3aa@mail.gmail.com> <200906060609.n5669wsF023320@floodgap.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20090606153239.04f1b8c8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380906061248s18e4a855h537ae0a57d45017@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Jun 6, 2009 at 2:39 PM, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that Brian Lanning may have mentioned these words: > In times past, I owned SCSI Zip drives, one each internal & external. Not > sure if I even still have them; but they certainly exist and might be easy > (if not cheap) to acquire thru ePay. They show up on ebay all the time. They're on the shopping list as well. This external scsi enclosure was sort of intended to hold all sorts of removable scsi contraptions that I wanted to play with. >I had kept the internal one for one of > my CoCos "just in case" I acquired a SCSI card for it, but now that I have > IDE, I'm torn whether to set it up with an available IDE zip drive I have, > setup an IDE Castlewood Orb for that purpose, or inform my wife that I > "Really Need[TM]" an upgrade for a my Nikon D70, so I could use my 1G > compact flash cards currently allocated to that task for the CoCo. I guess a zip or jaz drive formatted to fat32 should work with file exchange since it seems to know about PC floppy disks. Does this sound right? brian From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Jun 6 14:59:43 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 15:59:43 -0400 Subject: For pickup: VAX-11/750 and RK07 In-Reply-To: <4A2A4BEB.8969.1A2FB903@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4A2A4BEB.8969.1A2FB903@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200906061559.43722.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday 06 June 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The charging circuit is pretty crude by modern standards--an LM317K > TO3 regulator on a large (4"x6") heatsink with a 50W zener and a > thermostatic switch. It could probably benefit with some upgrading > to a "smarter" circuit. > > This UPS has been in continuous service since 1989. There's really only 3 reasons I bother upgrading my UPSes whenever I can find a newer, cheap to free one: 1) Newer models seem to have a charging circuit that's smart enough not to overcharge nearly-dead batteries to the point at which they expand and blow their seals. Cleaning batteries that have done this out of a UPS runs somewhere from "difficult" to "a complete mess". And, I've had to clean this up several times out of UPSes I've received; the only good thing is that it usually makes the UPS much less expensive to acquire. :) 2) Higher-efficiency inverters mean more runtime out of the same batteries, and usually at the same time, a lighter UPS. Considering how often I seem to move stuff around, lighter is definately a plus. 3) Better monitoring. I really like the amount of information that I can get out of SNMP on a modern UPS's network card. That said, if you replace the batteries as recommended (3-5 years) with good quality batteries, an older UPS will do quite admirably for most people, and can be more useful for hacking up to do different things (like mashing three of them into being a 3-phase inverter, which is somewhere on my project list, to power stuff like my IBM 3420, and Liebert System/3). Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jun 6 15:32:23 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2009 13:32:23 -0700 Subject: For pickup: VAX-11/750 and RK07 In-Reply-To: References: <4A2A4BEB.8969.1A2FB903@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 6, 9 10:58:51 am, Message-ID: <4A2A6FE7.19792.1ABC4A5D@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Jun 2009 at 20:08, Tony Duell wrote: > Yes, fuses are very useful for protecting things like transformers and > wiring harnesses. On the other hand, expensive power semiconductors > are useful for protecting fuses ;-) A friend who worked as a DEC field engineer used to talk about DEC being notorious for "transistor protected fuses". > > The charging circuit is pretty crude by modern standards--an LM317K > > TO3 regulator on a large (4"x6") heatsink with a 50W zener and a > > What's tyhe 50W zener for, given you have a regualtor chip? It's on the output side of the LM317, so I imagine it's intended as battery protection. There's also a honking big diode across the output before the 50A cartridge fuse in the lead going to the batteries. I assume it's to protect the circuitry in case the batteries are connected with reversed polarity. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jun 6 15:45:15 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2009 13:45:15 -0700 Subject: For pickup: VAX-11/750 and RK07 In-Reply-To: <200906061559.43722.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: , <4A2A4BEB.8969.1A2FB903@cclist.sydex.com>, <200906061559.43722.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <4A2A72EB.3168.1AC80F7D@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Jun 2009 at 15:59, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > 1) Newer models seem to have a charging circuit that's smart enough > not to overcharge nearly-dead batteries to the point at which they > expand and blow their seals. Cleaning batteries that have done this > out of a UPS runs somewhere from "difficult" to "a complete mess". > And, I've had to clean this up several times out of UPSes I've > received; the only good thing is that it usually makes the UPS much > less expensive to acquire. :) I think the LM317(mumble-mumble-high-voltage-suffix) is limited to about 1.5A output current anyway. And the batteries I'm using are basically garden-tractor batteries, not gel-cells, which seem to have a rather short (3-4 years) in UPS. I replace the batteries (in their own box) in mine about every 6 years--and I check the electrolyte level every 6 monts. > 2) Higher-efficiency inverters mean more runtime out of the same > batteries, and usually at the same time, a lighter UPS. Considering > how often I seem to move stuff around, lighter is definately a plus. No argument there, except that many cheap inverters deliver only an approximation to a sinewave output. > 3) Better monitoring. I really like the amount of information that I > can get out of SNMP on a modern UPS's network card. This one has some sort of RS-232 output, but I haven't the faintest what it indicates, other than "your power just failed". I've got the software for it somewhere, but have never run it. ... and can be more useful for hacking up to do different > things (like mashing three of them into being a 3-phase inverter, > which is somewhere on my project list, to power stuff like my IBM > 3420, and Liebert System/3). They also make great sources of big power transformers for linear power supplies. Some have multiple high-voltage windings, so they can also serve as isolation transformers. --Chuck From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jun 6 15:47:45 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 20:47:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: More vintage hardware still alive and kickin' Message-ID: <643785.88114.qm@web23408.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Pretty cool video. It's just a shame there weren't any closeups of the punched cards. I'm just curious... how many cards would a machine like that sort through in a day, or a week? That counter has 6 digits and it sorted ~90 cards in less than 10 seconds. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Thu, 4/6/09, Mike Ross wrote: From: Mike Ross Subject: More vintage hardware still alive and kickin' To: "cctech cctech" Date: Thursday, 4 June, 2009, 4:41 PM Enjoy http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RCgIrZiC6c Mike http://www.corestore.org _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_BR_life_in_synch_062009 From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jun 6 15:48:51 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2009 13:48:51 -0700 Subject: wire wrap machine pins In-Reply-To: References: <4A2A4F36.17120.1A3C9540@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 6, 9 11:12:54 am, Message-ID: <4A2A73C3.10174.1ACB5D02@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Jun 2009 at 20:10, Tony Duell wrote: > For what? Remoing wire-wrap contacts, or 'educating' lusers? Either. It's a multi-use tool. --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Jun 6 13:36:30 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 14:36:30 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: <4A2AB121.7040600@gmail.com> References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> <4A2978F2.3000200@gmail.com> <4A2AB121.7040600@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jun 6, 2009 at 2:10 PM, Kirn Gill wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: >> On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 3:58 PM, Kirn Gill >> wrote: >>> Well, out of curiosity, I'm going to attempt to build gzip and >>> wget on it. I hope it doesn't crash. >> >> It probably won't crash, but the compiler might or might not be >> able to wedge all that code into the available code space. >> >> I can just about guarantee that you'll have Makefile issues for >> projects large enough or new enough to use configure scripts... > > I've messed with Minix on a 286; I used to keep a copy of i86 Minix > with the DOSMINIX laucher on a flash drive because it would run on > NTVDM (Windows NT's DOS VM). OK. Some of that experience is relevant. > I've also messed with DOS programming. > It's a pain and a half and I avoided it like the plague; Me, too. I only ever had one job programming in DOS and it was horrible (one of my assigned tasks was to implement overlays because we had exceeded the available application size at about 525KB - yes "DOS" has 640K, but your program doesn't get to snarf it all up - there are a few things that users tend to have - even a clean DOS setup for gaming left noticeably less than the full 640KB. > DOS is dead > and not of any intristic value unless you enjoy playing corny-looking > games or running horrid multitasking GUIs made by Microsoft. I happen to enjoy playing corny-looking games, but I happen to own original copies and was playing them when they were the latest thing. I still have Master of Orion I close at hand, plus a few others. > I know > enough C to make compilers shut up when porting code; Also a handy skill, but different environments provide different challenges. DOS pointers are not really like UNIX pointers if you do anything more than reference and dereference them. > I have tried > writing software on my own and I can show you some failed attempts I > just left behind (also due to lack of motivation, I get tired of doing > all the work myself) Back in the comp.sources.games days, it was *very helpful* (nearly essential) to be an accomplished C programmer if you were trying to build something as complex as Larn on something that wasn't one of the 3-4 common environments (BSD on a VAX being very, very common, other environments at varying degrees). > If the /pointers/ on a PDP-11 are 16-bit as well, then I know what I > am up against. I've done a bit of coding with ELKS and > (aforementioned) Minix for pre-386 chips. Yes. Pointers are 16 bits. There's none of this x86 segment register twiddling. 16 bits. On a large machine like an 11/73, you can have 16 bits for data and 16 bits for code, and don't you dare try to twiddle the MMU yourself. > I wouldn't write any software on the machine, there's nothing useful I > can think of writing that I would actually deal with using. 2BSD on a PDP-11 was much more compelling in 1992 when PDP-11s were affordable by mortals and 32-bit UNIX ran on hardware we could never hope to own ourselves with licenses we could never hope to afford. Even in the early days of Linux, products like Interactive UNIX on a 386 was more "useful". I had plenty of PDP-11 gear (over $1000 out-of-pocket in addons plus lots of freebies) and I had problems marshalling the resources to load 2BSD. Fast-forward to when most serious computer types had a 386 or a 486 w/16MB of RAM and 80-200MB of disk (1994-1995, say), and Linux started to look mighty attractive, if still a little rough around the edges. 2BSD on an -11 is viable when your alternative is an 80286 or 8086. Not so much when a 32-bit x86 costs less than the -11 gear, even at reseller and rescue prices. > The fact > that the local 'vi' doesn't respond to ANSI/VT100 directional keys, > and only responds to h, j, k, l instead is enough to make me hate it. It's vi, not vim. That's all we had for a long time. > And no, that's not going to motivate me to write a better editor. I > don't know how. If I did, I would have already done it and the holy > Emacs vs. Vi war would have been over, both sides having both lost. I use both. I guess that makes me a heretic. -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jun 6 16:01:54 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 14:01:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380906061213u7d229f9euc33cf5c5f4a6d8f5@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380906052055o6dc4a1bfg2a042dfaff6cc3aa@mail.gmail.com> <200906060609.n5669wsF023320@floodgap.com> <6dbe3c380906061213u7d229f9euc33cf5c5f4a6d8f5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090606135854.N96807@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 6 Jun 2009, Brian Lanning wrote: > Does anyone make a scsi floppy drive that I could put in my external > enclosure? Do these even exist? What about zip/jaz/syquest drives? "Floptical" drives The one that I was using was SCSI and did 20M floptical, and did 1.4M floppy. External SCSI ZIP drives were readily available. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jun 6 16:07:11 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2009 14:07:11 -0700 Subject: More vintage hardware still alive and kickin' In-Reply-To: <643785.88114.qm@web23408.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <643785.88114.qm@web23408.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4A2A780F.19281.1ADC248A@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Jun 2009 at 20:47, Andrew Burton wrote: > > Pretty cool video. It's just a shame there weren't any closeups of the > punched cards. > > I'm just curious... how many cards would a machine like that sort > through in a day, or a week? That counter has 6 digits and it sorted > ~90 cards in less than 10 seconds. Well, an 083 will feed about 1000 cards/minute and a good operator can keep it running all day. How many cards could be sorted, depends, of course, on the number of colums being sorted (one pass per column, plus fumble and jam time... --Chuck From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sat Jun 6 16:05:22 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 18:05:22 -0300 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> <4A2978F2.3000200@gmail.com><4A2AB121.7040600@gmail.com> Message-ID: <08c801c9e6eb$813a6280$761e19bb@desktaba> >> And no, that's not going to motivate me to write a better editor. I >> don't know how. If I did, I would have already done it and the holy >> Emacs vs. Vi war would have been over, both sides having both lost. > I use both. I guess that makes me a heretic. (messing with what I don't know, I wasn't been invited to the party, I'm completely dumb on this subject) Why not port JOE (a wordstar clone) to it? :o) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Jun 6 13:08:29 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 14:08:29 -0400 Subject: For pickup: VAX-11/750 and RK07 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 4:08 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Indeed. ?15 years ago, I was able to save the 11/750 from work, but >> could not find room for a pair of RK07s and a pickup-truck-load of > > I think I'd have takne the drives (and put them on an 11 or something) > and left the VAX. The 11/750 is not a machine I greatly care for.... I've seen your posting about the 11/750 and I cannot refute them given your interests and proclivities, but this happened to be the machine I first learned VMS on, the first machine I wrote a UNIX driver on, and one that' I'd upgraded internally many times (it shipped with 512K and I upgraded it myself to 8MB to give it five more years of use as the company's main machine for all e-mail, software development and sales activity). This machine and I have a history going back some time, so I couldn't just leave it behind. The drives weren't stackable (unlike the RL02s and the RA81s) so they had a large footprint for 28MB each and I just didn't have a place for them. >> RK07 cartridges. ?Those were good drives - easy to repair, decent > > I am not convinced abotu the 'easy to repair'. I've read the printset, > and that servo system is _complicated_. And don't you need some rather > special tools/test gear to fit new heads? I don't know about heads - in a decade of running RK07s daily, we never had to fiddle with heads - we just kept from crashing our packs. Our failures were all electronics and easy to access, diagnose, and repair. My experience only, of course, YMMV. -ethan From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Sat Jun 6 16:45:04 2009 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 22:45:04 +0100 Subject: IBM 029 progress Message-ID: <88A1FADA-91E0-4205-942E-D03FC5322C59@microspot.co.uk> To cut a long story short, we have put a 240v/50Hz motor from an IBM 56 verifier in the keypunch and that part works great. We transplanted the motor cradle and motor start relay too. The manual showed how the DC power supply could be configured for 115v or 208v or 240v, though all at 60Hz. Well we tried that and the DC produced was about 41volts instead of 48v, which was more or less what was predicted by collective list wisdom. The relay logic intermittently seems to work. The existing capacitor in the ferro-resonant power supply is marked 15MF (incidentally, how come MF does not mean Mega Farad), and rated at 330VAC. I think this means ideally I need (90/50)^2 * 15 which is 21.6MF. I have ordered two more capacitors to connect in parallel, one 5uF and one 1.5uF, to give 21.5 total, both at 440VAC. There was one wire hanging off the bottom of the mechanism which we have reconnected. The mechanical side gradually came back to life, probably the grease had gone hard at the surface or oil needed spreading about a bit. It now fairly reliably moves cards from the input hopper to the output stacker. There were chads stuck all over the place and at first, the top row did not poke the chads out of the holes and we joked about hanging chads and George Bush coming back. Comparing my old keypunch and this one, there is an auger screw in the old one but not in this, but after looking through the parts list, it seems IBM deleted that part. Anyway a 9mm twist drill pushed up the empty auger hole and twisted and wiggled and a backlog of old chads and strangely black cloth came out and now it punches cleanly, or at least it does when the relay logic feels like it. It even prints the codes. To get alpha I had to hold down the alpha key, though I think it should latch in logic, probably the low DC supply again. The whole thing looks like it has been re-sprayed in the right colour/ texture of paint and thoroughly cleaned. Maybe a factory refurbished unit. Picture of it with cards in the track here, covers off: http://www.ict1301.co.uk/emulator/029_03_09 I hope to be using it soon to correct any cards which wreck when I try to read in the library of ICT 1301 software so I can capture it on my Mac, from where I can load it via RS232 into my 1301 as well as make it available to others. Roger Holmes From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jun 6 16:56:09 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2009 14:56:09 -0700 Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) In-Reply-To: <20090606135854.N96807@shell.lmi.net> References: <6dbe3c380906052055o6dc4a1bfg2a042dfaff6cc3aa@mail.gmail.com>, <6dbe3c380906061213u7d229f9euc33cf5c5f4a6d8f5@mail.gmail.com>, <20090606135854.N96807@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4A2A8389.2581.1B08FA91@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Jun 2009 at 14:01, Fred Cisin wrote: > "Floptical" drives > The one that I was using was SCSI and did 20M floptical, and did 1.4M > floppy. > > External SCSI ZIP drives were readily available. I think I still have a 20MB Tulin 3.5" drive around somewhere. And there's always the Imation Superdrive available in SCSI. In conventional floppies, Teac offered the FD-235HS 3.5" in SCSI. And there were makers (Xebec, OMTI) of SCSI-to-floppy bridge cards. SCSI floppies are fine as long as you don't need to get "creative" with sector sizing and ID marks. Remember that SCSI is essentially a relative-block type of protocol, so you can forget about reading those Microsoft DMF floppies. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jun 6 17:01:10 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2009 15:01:10 -0700 Subject: IBM 029 progress In-Reply-To: <88A1FADA-91E0-4205-942E-D03FC5322C59@microspot.co.uk> References: <88A1FADA-91E0-4205-942E-D03FC5322C59@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <4A2A84B6.13249.1B0D90A4@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Jun 2009 at 22:45, Roger Holmes wrote: > Anyway a 9mm twist drill pushed up the > empty auger hole and twisted and wiggled and a backlog of old chads > and strangely black cloth came out and now it punches cleanly, or at > least it does when the relay logic feels like it. Sounds great, Roger. That black cloth may just be old shredded ribbon from the print mechanism. I think MAI here in the US used to buy up old IBM card gear, refurb, then lease it out again. --CHuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Jun 6 17:51:50 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2009 15:51:50 -0700 Subject: IBM 029 progress References: <88A1FADA-91E0-4205-942E-D03FC5322C59@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <4A2AF306.74303EAB@cs.ubc.ca> Roger Holmes wrote: > > To cut a long story short, we have put a 240v/50Hz motor from an IBM > 56 verifier in the keypunch and that part works great. We transplanted > the motor cradle and motor start relay too. The manual showed how the > DC power supply could be configured for 115v or 208v or 240v, though > all at 60Hz. Well we tried that and the DC produced was about 41volts > instead of 48v, which was more or less what was predicted by > collective list wisdom. The relay logic intermittently seems to work. > The existing capacitor in the ferro-resonant power supply is marked > 15MF (incidentally, how come MF does not mean Mega Farad), and rated > at 330VAC. I think this means ideally I need (90/50)^2 * 15 which is > 21.6MF. I have ordered two more capacitors to connect in parallel, one > 5uF and one 1.5uF, to give 21.5 total, both at 440VAC. It will be interesting to hear how the additional caps work out, both as to how it works out for the ferro-resonant power supply and whether the proper voltage improves the relay circuitry behaviour. IIRC, the IBM relay practices document someone pointed to earlier in the discussion made some mention of a large variation tolerance, but it may have meant the system tolerance was fairly narrow so as to accept a wide variation amongst individual relays, rather than implying a large tolerance on system parameters. In my own hacking/design experience with semi-complex relay circuitry I did find them more sensitive to voltage levels than initially expected, when trying to get optimum performance. There were some conflicting characteristics involving voltage and the stored energy in the relay solenoid vs clock speed and system design that resulted in the power supply requirements being tighter than expected. From ats at offog.org Sat Jun 6 18:05:52 2009 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 00:05:52 +0100 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: (Zane H. Healy's message of "Fri\, 5 Jun 2009 14\:12\:34 -0700 \(PDT\)") References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> <4A2978F2.3000200@gmail.com> <4A2985FF.70209@gmail.com> Message-ID: "Zane H. Healy" writes: > It would be nice to see just about any OS that wasn't basically POSIX, > or DOS/Windows running native on a PC. Some colleagues of mine are working on a PC operating system: http://rmox.net/ Definitely not classic hardware, but written in an extended version of a classic programming language, at least. You can port transputer applications to it fairly easily. There are various other unusual research-oriented and hobbyist operating systems around -- for example, EROS and its descendents, SkyOS, etc. -- Adam Sampson From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sat Jun 6 18:07:34 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 00:07:34 +0100 Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) In-Reply-To: <200906060603.n5663TXA015970@floodgap.com> References: <200906060603.n5663TXA015970@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4A2AF6B6.3020406@philpem.me.uk> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > It certainly wouldn't boot from it, given that El Torito virtually > mandates ISO 9660. You could always put an NTFS FS in a file on an El Torito-formatted ISO9660 CD-ROM or DVD. So effectively you have: [CDROM] | +--- ElTorito Boot image | | | +--- Bootloader that can read ISO9660 + NTFS (GRUB?) | +--- NTFS.VOL (NTFS image) Though if you're not fussed that your CD is unbootable, treating it as a block device and blatting it with a raw NTFS image is a valid, if kludgy, way of dealing with it. Linux + ntfs3g would doubtless have no issues with block sizes and so forth (CDs have a blocksize of 2048 or 2336 bytes, depending on which Mode you're using). I do wonder if WinXP's NTFS loader can deal with NTFS partitions on odd devices and with strange blocksizes... Interestingly enough, this is (technically) on topic, because version 1.0 of the El Torito spec was released on January 25th, 1995. I seriously didn't think it was that old, though I should probably have guessed... The overriding question is, of course, "WHY?!" -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Jun 6 18:39:33 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 00:39:33 +0100 Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20090606153239.04f1b8c8@mail.30below.com> References: <200906060609.n5669wsF023320@floodgap.com> <6dbe3c380906052055o6dc4a1bfg2a042dfaff6cc3aa@mail.gmail.com> <200906060609.n5669wsF023320@floodgap.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20090606153239.04f1b8c8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <4A2AFE35.60202@dunnington.plus.com> On 06/06/2009 20:39, Roger Merchberger wrote: > Rumor has it that Brian Lanning may have mentioned these words: > >> Does anyone make a scsi floppy drive that I could put in my external >> enclosure? Do these even exist? What about zip/jaz/syquest drives? > > The only ones I know of were used in DEC machines, it was a standard > floppy drive mounted into a "bridge board" which endowed the lowly > floppy with "Super SCSI Powers!" ;-) I've got an RX23 like that. I also have a couple of 5.25" TEAC GFR-55S drives, a 20MB floptical that can read/write 3.5" MFM disks, a small TEAC FD235 SCSI 3.5" floppy with motorised eject, and two Silicon Graphics external SCSI floppy drives that are SCSI. I don't remember where the GFR-55Ss came from, maybe a Sun. I've never opened the SGI ones to see how it's done, but I suspect it's another bridge board system. The trouble with all of these is that the SCSI controller expects a certain disk layout, typically 512 byte sectors numbered 1 to , and won't be happy with, say, sectors numbered 0 to or different sector sizes. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Jun 6 18:51:37 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2009 16:51:37 -0700 Subject: UNIX on PDP-11s In-Reply-To: <4A28DC33.1040201@softjar.se> References: <4A28DC33.1040201@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4A2B0109.2010702@brouhaha.com> Johnny Billquist wrote: > The only MSCP controller DEC did for Unibus was to SDI (tha UDA50). Three others come to mind: RUX50 (M7522) interface to RX50 floppy KLESI-UA (M8739) interface to RC25 disk (or can be configured for TMSCP with TU81) RRD50-U (M7490-YA) interface to RRD50 CD-ROM > The only MSCP to MFM controller DEC did was for Q-bus (the RQDX series). Though DEC did have other Q-bus MSCP interfaces for devices other than the RX50 and RDxx, such as: KLESI-QA (M7740) interface to RC25 disk (or can be configured for TMSCP with TU81) KDA50 (M7165) SDI interface KFQSA (M7769) DSSI interface From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Jun 6 18:54:31 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2009 16:54:31 -0700 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> <4A2978F2.3000200@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A2B01B7.3050905@brouhaha.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > Checking on a handy 64-bit Linux system, the gzip binary is under 64K > total size, so that might not go so poorly. Yes, but size of the executable is NOT the problem you're going to face with gzip or zlib on a PDP-11. Eric From IanK at vulcan.com Sat Jun 6 18:57:53 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 16:57:53 -0700 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: <4A2AB121.7040600@gmail.com> References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> <4A2978F2.3000200@gmail.com> , <4A2AB121.7040600@gmail.com> Message-ID: Actually, MSDOS is alive and well. It is commonly used as the "boot loader" for many, many systems. It's no longer under development by Microsoft, but they still make money from sales to people who need something on top of the bare hardware before their custom software starts up. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Kirn Gill [segin2005 at gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 11:10 AM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: PDP 11/73 on the Internet -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 [snip] I've messed with Minix on a 286; I used to keep a copy of i86 Minix with the DOSMINIX laucher on a flash drive because it would run on NTVDM (Windows NT's DOS VM). I've also messed with DOS programming. It's a pain and a half and I avoided it like the plague; DOS is dead and not of any intristic value unless you enjoy playing corny-looking games or running horrid multitasking GUIs made by Microsoft. I know enough C to make compilers shut up when porting code; I have tried writing software on my own and I can show you some failed attempts I just left behind (also due to lack of motivation, I get tired of doing all the work myself) If the /pointers/ on a PDP-11 are 16-bit as well, then I know what I am up against. I've done a bit of coding with ELKS and (aforementioned) Minix for pre-386 chips. I wouldn't write any software on the machine, there's nothing useful I can think of writing that I would actually deal with using. The fact that the local 'vi' doesn't respond to ANSI/VT100 directional keys, and only responds to h, j, k, l instead is enough to make me hate it. And no, that's not going to motivate me to write a better editor. I don't know how. If I did, I would have already done it and the holy Emacs vs. Vi war would have been over, both sides having both lost. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkoqsSAACgkQF9H43UytGiZybACfSnYD40kWotXU0Wgpo1VoS6Tc ewUAn3C4TJ7qZk5DV7FQ53y1DcV3ErkY =2M26 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Jun 6 19:04:37 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2009 17:04:37 -0700 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> <4A2978F2.3000200@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A2B0415.3060009@brouhaha.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > RT-11 screams on pretty much anything faster than a KDF-11. And everyone seems to have forgotten that that's how an operating system is supposed to be. Sigh. It wasn't too bad even on an 11/03, unless your system device was a TU58. Eric From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Jun 6 22:38:05 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2009 23:38:05 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> <4A2978F2.3000200@gmail.com> <4A2AB121.7040600@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A2B361D.4010205@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jun 6, 2009, at 2:10 PM, Kirn Gill wrote: >> And no, that's not going to motivate me to write a better editor. I >> don't know how. If I did, I would have already done it and the holy >> Emacs vs. Vi war would have been over, both sides having both lost. > > Emacs won that war ages ago. ;) [dave dives for cover] XEDIT and XEDIT only. Sent down by God himself. Peace... Sridhar From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Jun 6 22:56:18 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 20:56:18 -0700 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: <575131af0906060600y773232c4qcecd9f0cc66bdba1@mail.gmail.com> References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> <4A2978F2.3000200@gmail.com> <4A2985FF.70209@gmail.com> <575131af0906060600y773232c4qcecd9f0cc66bdba1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 2:00 PM +0100 6/6/09, Liam Proven wrote: > > It would be nice to see just about any OS that wasn't basically POSIX, or >> DOS/Windows running native on a PC. >> >> Zane > >How about TSX-32? Commercial, alas, but there's a free demo version. >IIRC it's not too happy inside most VMs, though. > >http://www.sandh.com/sandh.htm > >Derived or inspired by a PDP-11 OS, TSX, which I think shares some >ancestry with RSTS or something. I'm afraid PDPs were a bit before my >time - I cut my FORTRAN teeth on a VAX 11/780. I was actually thinking about TSX-32 when I wrote that. I've never run TSX-32, but have run TSX-11. I wasn't aware they were still around. I'm actually a little surprised that the website has been updated since I was last there. Although as the price list is from June of 2001, I have to question how alive they actually are. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Jun 6 23:09:02 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 21:09:02 -0700 Subject: Master of Orion (was: PDP 11/73 on the Internet) In-Reply-To: References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> <4A2978F2.3000200@gmail.com> <4A2AB121.7040600@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 2:36 PM -0400 6/6/09, Ethan Dicks wrote: >I happen to enjoy playing corny-looking games, but I happen to own >original copies and was playing them when they were the latest thing. >I still have Master of Orion I close at hand, plus a few others. Take a look at the Mac version if you can find it. I forget just how large of a screen it supports, but it's most of a 1024x1280 display (not all). Same with Warlords II, while on DOS you're limited to 640x480 for both. These are two of my favorite computer games. I really want to get my one Mac setup so I can play these and Harpoon again. I can still play Master of Orion on Mac OS X 10.4.11 on my G5. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Jun 6 23:09:45 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 21:09:45 -0700 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> <4A2978F2.3000200@gmail.com> <4A2AB121.7040600@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 2:36 PM -0400 6/6/09, Ethan Dicks wrote: >2BSD on a PDP-11 was much more compelling in 1992 when PDP-11s were >affordable by mortals and 32-bit UNIX ran on hardware we could never >hope to own ourselves with licenses we could never hope to afford. >Even in the early days of Linux, products like Interactive UNIX on a >386 was more "useful". > >I had plenty of PDP-11 gear (over $1000 out-of-pocket in addons plus >lots of freebies) and I had problems marshalling the resources to load >2BSD. Fast-forward to when most serious computer types had a 386 or a >486 w/16MB of RAM and 80-200MB of disk (1994-1995, say), and Linux >started to look mighty attractive, if still a little rough around the >edges. I was running Linux on my 486/33 w/8MB RAM in January of '92. I upgraded in '93 to 20MB RAM specifically for Linux. Then when I went back to sea at the beginning of '94 I had to downgrade to a 386SX/16 laptop with only 4MB RAM. That was painful, but I was able to use TeX, and I could just run X-Windows well enough to use xdvi. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Jun 6 23:13:30 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 21:13:30 -0700 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: <08c801c9e6eb$813a6280$761e19bb@desktaba> References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> <4A2978F2.3000200@gmail.com><4A2AB121.7040600@gmail.com> <08c801c9e6eb$813a6280$761e19bb@desktaba> Message-ID: At 6:05 PM -0300 6/6/09, Alexandre Souza wrote: >>>And no, that's not going to motivate me to write a better editor. I >>>don't know how. If I did, I would have already done it and the holy >>>Emacs vs. Vi war would have been over, both sides having both lost. >>I use both. I guess that makes me a heretic. > > (messing with what I don't know, I wasn't been invited to the >party, I'm completely dumb on this subject) > > Why not port JOE (a wordstar clone) to it? :o) If I'm at the command-line in UNIX, then 'joe' is my editor of choice. I really like that they've added context-colouring to it! However, most of my programming is done under xemacs or Visual Studio. On OpenVMS I used either EDIT from the command-line or 'nedit' under X-Windows. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Jun 6 23:51:10 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 21:51:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: from Ethan Dicks at "Jun 6, 9 02:36:30 pm" Message-ID: <200906070451.n574pAKD014322@floodgap.com> > > And no, that's not going to motivate me to write a better editor. I > > don't know how. If I did, I would have already done it and the holy > > Emacs vs. Vi war would have been over, both sides having both lost. > > I use both. I guess that makes me a heretic. No, just a polytheist. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "I'd love to go out with you, but I'm rethreading my toothbrush bristles." - From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 7 00:57:23 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2009 22:57:23 -0700 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: <4A2AB121.7040600@gmail.com> References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu>, , <4A2AB121.7040600@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A2AF453.28265.1CC18BE8@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Jun 2009 at 14:10, Kirn Gill wrote: > I wouldn't write any software on the machine, there's nothing useful I > can think of writing that I would actually deal with using. The fact > that the local 'vi' doesn't respond to ANSI/VT100 directional keys, > and only responds to h, j, k, l instead is enough to make me hate it. > > And no, that's not going to motivate me to write a better editor. I > don't know how. If I did, I would have already done it and the holy > Emacs vs. Vi war would have been over, both sides having both lost. Try doing your program development on a keypunch, with a 407 for 80- 80 listing. Get off my lawn... Chuck From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Sat Jun 6 06:23:07 2009 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2009 13:23:07 +0200 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: <05CFA042-91D3-4A22-8EEF-E263838B8B4A@neurotica.com> References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> <4A2978F2.3000200@gmail.com> <4A2985FF.70209@gmail.com> <4BB72BDF-E150-4E00-AA3C-88911F55294A@neurotica.com> <7d3530220906051425k3c313650v502c4981cc5f2402@mail.gmail.com> <05CFA042-91D3-4A22-8EEF-E263838B8B4A@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4A2A519B.2090307@iais.fraunhofer.de> Dave McGuire schrieb: > On Jun 5, 2009, at 5:25 PM, John Floren wrote: > >> Plan 9! We don't pretend to follow POSIX, we just had Thompson and >> Kernighan do what they wanted. ;) >> > > I would love to play with Plan 9 again. Has it been under active > development? > > -Dave > > http://plan9.bell-labs.com/plan9/ -- Regards Holger From james at machineroom.info Sat Jun 6 14:27:40 2009 From: james at machineroom.info (James Wilson) Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2009 20:27:40 +0100 Subject: P-System (was Re: PDP 11/73 on the Internet) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A2AC32C.1070103@machineroom.info> Tony Duell wrote: >> It would be nice to see just about any OS that wasn't basically POSIX, or >> DOS/Windows running native on a PC. >> > > ROM BASIC? (Technically, it performs some of the functions of an OS) > Standalone Forth? (there must be at least one..) > UCSD P-system? > CP/M-86? > > -tony > UCSD P-system? Now theres a name I haven't seen in a while.... 10 or so years ago I worked for a company in Bristol (UK) who supposedly had the rights to the P-System. Went by the name of Cabot Software, formerly Pecan Systems IIRC. Great system but didn't keep up with the times. We had the interpreter running on a selection of digital TV STBs with C as the preferred source language (no, not a logical choice for the P-System!). That led to them getting into the MHEG-5 market and eventually swallowed up by a TV manufacturer. Anyway, the story goes that the P-System was considered by IBM along with CP/M for the PC. Don't know how much thuth there was to that but even in my time we had several customers still running P-System natively on a variety of hardware - AppleII, a contemporary mini (can't remember which) at Norwich Union and some 68K based (Stride?) systems. Happy days! James From charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com Sat Jun 6 17:09:45 2009 From: charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 15:09:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 029 progress Message-ID: <280410.68831.qm@web35306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > I think MAI here in the US used to buy up old IBM card > gear, refurb, > then lease it out again. At University (UT-Arlington) we had scores of former IBM 026 keypunches from MAI that were refreshed, painted blue (from IBM 026 battleship grey), and (I think) refitted with 029 character set. Lee Courtney --- On Sat, 6/6/09, Chuck Guzis wrote: > From: Chuck Guzis > Subject: Re: IBM 029 progress > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Saturday, June 6, 2009, 3:01 PM > On 6 Jun 2009 at 22:45, Roger Holmes > wrote: > > > Anyway a 9mm twist drill pushed up the > > empty auger hole and twisted and wiggled and a backlog > of old chads > > and strangely black cloth came out and now it punches > cleanly, or at > > least it does when the relay logic feels like it. > > Sounds great, Roger.? That black cloth may just be old > shredded > ribbon from the print mechanism. > > I think MAI here in the US used to buy up old IBM card > gear, refurb, > then lease it out again. > > --CHuck > > From hall99 at windstream.net Sat Jun 6 18:10:16 2009 From: hall99 at windstream.net (Ron and Phyllis Hall) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 18:10:16 -0500 Subject: Radio Shack Science Fair manuals Message-ID: <2DE818F196EF4D31999DD44B91CA2FC4@RONCOMP> Hi: I ran across your posting for Radio Shack Manual for a 28-249 200 in One Electronic Project Lab. I have the Lab and an 11 year old grandson, but no manual. Can you help me locate one? R Hall Nebraska From chrise at pobox.com Sat Jun 6 19:39:33 2009 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 19:39:33 -0500 Subject: TI Silent 700 model 733 manual In-Reply-To: References: <20090605215318.GV8895@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20090607003933.GZ8895@n0jcf.net> On Saturday (06/06/2009 at 06:28PM +0100), Tony Duell wrote: > > However, the paper does not feed correctly. On inspection, I've already > > found that the grease in the little solonoid that lifts the head from the > > paper when it advances has turned to something more sticky than honey. > > I'm in the process of addressing that. > > This is a well-known problem on all sorts of devices. Someitmes the > grease will soften with common solvents (propan-2-ol, etc). There's a > green grease used in some camera lans mounts that goes rock hard with age > and nothing wil shift it short of scraping it out.... yes... I had to clean it out of the raceway of the solonoid as well as off the plunger. It was really like glue. WD-40 seemed to do a nice job cutting it actually. > > I also see that the stepper motor that actually turns the platen (or equiv > > of) is not making a full increment each time. Sometimes it advances but > > other times it de-advances. So, something it messed up in the stepper > > circuit or the grease in that stepper motor has turned to honey too. > > Maybe you've lost the drive to one of hte stepper phases. That can make > them step in thwe wrong direction sometimes. That was absolutely it. It was a fun afternoon tracing out the circuit and finding a bad TIP31B (NPN, 3A, 40W) on the driver board. Of course I didn't have a TIP31B in stock so I stuck a TIP29B in there temporarily and we're back online. A pile of TIP31B have been ordered for spares. I remember having to change one of them once before in the distant past and the evidence of that (solder rosin) was still on the board so I've been here before... can't understand why I would have forgotten after 30 yrs of not using this thing :-) > > There's no microprocessor in the thing-- not even a UART. It's all done > > with 7400 TTL and electronically, it's extremely fixable. > > The 733 is like that too, although there's probably at least one ROM (the > character generator). From what I rmember there's a cardcage of PCBs > between the 2 tape drives in the ASR add-on (behind the swtich/LED panel > in the middle -- in fact I think that's mounted on the frontmost PCB in > the cage). Anyway, about the most complicated chip on those boards is a > little bipolar RAM. No microprocessor. Great stuff. Cool to see all those TTL parts and not a one of them is LS or HCT or anything close. 74XX was it in 1973. > > Everything else is on the back burner now-- gotta get this baby > > printing right! :-) > > I'm almost convinced to dig mine out and have a go with it... Too many > projects, not enough bench space... oh it's fun! Great to see the thing printing crisp and clear and feeding the paper as it should. Note that I have really good luck with modern thermal FAX paper in these units. Around here it is readily available at office supply stores on 98 ft rolls. They have a 1/2" dia core which needs a piece of dowel to support it in the 725 (and probably in the 733 too) and it is a much smaller roll than the 725 can take... but it works. I also use it in my 745 and there the roll is a perfect fit. http://www.officemax.com/catalog/sku.jsp?productId=ARS27286&history=vu04vnc2|prodPage~15^freeText~thermal+fax+paper^paramValue~true^refine~1^region~1^param~return_skus^return_skus~Y 6 rolls for $17. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From iamvirtual at gmail.com Sat Jun 6 23:13:45 2009 From: iamvirtual at gmail.com (B M) Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 22:13:45 -0600 Subject: loading disk image on PDP-11 Message-ID: <2645f9870906062113p609bd61cqc1e280296c0022a1@mail.gmail.com> I am finally ready to load a disk image onto a RK05 disk for my PDP-11/10. I have RK05 disk images for RSTS-11 (my goal). What is the easiest way to load the disk image onto a RK05 cartridge? I was thinking of using vtserver to transfer the image over a serial line, but the 'copy' program is not compatible with my PDP-11/05 (it uses the 'mul' and 'div' instructions which is not available on my PDP-11/10). Here is what I have available: PDP-11/10 with 32kw core memory serial connection (max 2400 baud) RK05 (non-bootable cartridge but does load properly) external dual TU58 DecTapeII drive Many thanks for any information. I am really looking for a nudge in the right direction. ;-) --barrym From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Jun 7 03:55:28 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 01:55:28 -0700 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: <7F6649CA-BCB5-48E4-B50D-F214CE097715@neurotica.com> References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> <4A2978F2.3000200@gmail.com> <200906051614.15873.vax@purdue.edu> <7F6649CA-BCB5-48E4-B50D-F214CE097715@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4A2B8080.9020109@brouhaha.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > Yebbut...RT-11 doesn't really do a whole lot. ;) Sometimes that's a virtue. > I'm a RSTS/E and RSX-11 man. I don't have much RSX-11 experience, but I definitely like RSTS/E. From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Jun 7 03:56:28 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 01:56:28 -0700 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: <4A2ABCD3.2050906@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> <4A2978F2.3000200@gmail.com> <4A2985FF.70209@gmail.com> <4BB72BDF-E150-4E00-AA3C-88911F55294A@neurotica.com> <20090605175302.187448lmqqcxm85a@mail.msu.edu> <37E4B28F-5090-4D85-8645-3A7159916585@neurotica.com> <4A2ABCD3.2050906@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4A2B80BC.9070808@brouhaha.com> bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > rom FOCAL :) I've never seen it, but it's reported to have existed on some computers made in the former Soviet Union. From spedraja at ono.com Sun Jun 7 04:57:26 2009 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 11:57:26 +0200 Subject: Altos 686 In-Reply-To: <1729B331-DBDC-4B93-95DC-3CA1818FE261@earthlink.net> References: <2B2AE65A-62B1-4413-8163-9C010976ABC5@earthlink.net> <1729B331-DBDC-4B93-95DC-3CA1818FE261@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Thanks, Mike. I know that some part of the stuff is non-Xenix... but my question was about the Xenix specific. What I told was something that perhaps Dave don't had in mind when it developed ImageDisk. I speak about write the output of one IMD image using ImageDisk... but in one RAW image, not in one physical drive. This raw image could be compatible with some of the emulators available actually, from SIMH to other for Z80 or PC platforms. Then, you could startup one Unix (or compatible) emulated system, and mount as a diskette one of these raw images. If it's one Xenix filesystem it could possible to access it for some Unix compatible systems. And once mounted, you could connect with 'cu' or 'uucp' using the serial line (in my case, redirecting via IP to the Serial Port) with one REAL Altos Xenix (as is my case) to transfer the files what you want to send. With independence of this, and one more time, my thanks to Dave for its invaluable tool (ImageDisk). Regards Sergio 2009/6/6 mike ingram > Hi Sergio > > Uh... never mind the tarball stuff.... Dave has the files on his site > all arranged in their separate disks... some were sent by me and some by > another user. > > He also has a program that will allow you to create floppies on a PC type > machine,,,, So, one takes these IMD images ( they are actually images of > separate floppy disks ).. and burns floppies and then the Altos can read > those floppies. His site is: > > www.classiccmp.org/dunfield > > Easiest method it to get the IMD program, those files, and a stack of > floppies, then find a PC with a 5 1/2 floppy drive, and have at it for a > bit. Then you go to the Altos and you should be able to read the files > right there. > > Yes, you could use "cu" to get the IMD images over, but then you'd still > have the problem of how to decode the IMD images, and some of the files > weren't even unix files ( like the MP/M operating system and the ADX > Diagnostic disk ).. > > Hope it helps > > Mike > > > > > > > On May 27, 2009, at 12:01 AM, SPC wrote: > > A lot of thanks, sincerely :-) >> >> The Altos is in good shape and working state and I consider a waste don't >> hack it a little. And, more important, I did a test and probe that I can >> manage it using the serial port of my laptop and one original Dec VT220 >> (that I use eventually to connect in old-fashion mode to SIMH by the same >> way, but this is other story). >> >> Only one point to clear... you speak about send IMD images in a tarball, >> isn't so ? Or perhaps... Do you speak about the single files of the disks >> (one by one) ? In this last case, I wonder if would be possible to send >> files to the Altos Xenix using 'cu' or something similar... Only assorted >> thoughts, you know... :-) >> >> Thanks again. Kind Regards. >> Sergio >> >> >> 2009/5/27 mike ingram >> >> Hi Sergio >>> >>> I had given Dave Dunfield copies of a C compiler and some other stuff >>> that >>> I won on an Ebay auction a couple of years ago. >>> >>> Dave used to have a site at http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/ >>> museum/img/index.htm >>> >>> that had copies of this, but it doesn't seem to be working.. ( >>> anybody >>> know where this is now ???? ) >>> >>> Anyways, I had these disks: >>> >>> Xenix Development System version 3.0BS0, which includes 7 floppies, >>> SCCS 3.0B0 disk 1 of 1 >>> Spelling Checker 3.0BS0 disk 1 of 1 >>> Level II COBOL R2.02S0 RTS Rev 56 disk 1 of 1 >>> INFORMIX demo version 3.11B two disks ( not ALTOS, but with INFORMIX >>> label on it ) >>> F77 Fortran version 1.2B0 disk 1 of 1 >>> C Compiler 3.0BS1 two disks >>> >>> Be glad to email you what I have .... I think I just put it all into a >>> tar >>> ball and gzipped it, after using Dave's ImageDisk program to copy the >>> original floppies into something more moveable. >>> >>> Mike >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On May 22, 2009, at 4:51 AM, SPC wrote: >>> >>> Hello. I have one Altos 686 with Xenix 3.2 in working state. I should >>> like >>> >>>> to install on it one C compiler and eventually the Ryan-McFarland Cobol >>>> for >>>> this platform if available. >>>> >>>> I remember something about IMD image disks available in some place in >>>> the >>>> Internet but I don't remember where. >>>> >>>> All help is welcome >>>> >>>> Kind Regards >>>> Sergio >>>> >>>> >>> >>> > From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sun Jun 7 06:00:59 2009 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 13:00:59 +0200 Subject: loading disk image on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <2645f9870906062113p609bd61cqc1e280296c0022a1@mail.gmail.com> References: <2645f9870906062113p609bd61cqc1e280296c0022a1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 22:13:45 -0600 > Subject: loading disk image on PDP-11 > From: iamvirtual at gmail.com > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > > I am finally ready to load a disk image onto a RK05 disk for my > PDP-11/10. I have RK05 disk images for RSTS-11 (my goal). > > What is the easiest way to load the disk image onto a RK05 cartridge? > > I was thinking of using vtserver to transfer the image over a serial > line, but the 'copy' program is not compatible with my PDP-11/05 (it > uses the 'mul' and 'div' instructions which is not available on my > PDP-11/10). > > Here is what I have available: > PDP-11/10 with 32kw core memory > serial connection (max 2400 baud) > RK05 (non-bootable cartridge but does load properly) > external dual TU58 DecTapeII drive > > Many thanks for any information. I am really looking for a nudge in > the right direction. ;-) > > --barrym Have a peek at http://www.fpns.net/willy/pdp11/tu58-emu.htm - Henk From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sun Jun 7 06:04:23 2009 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 13:04:23 +0200 Subject: loading disk image on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <2645f9870906062113p609bd61cqc1e280296c0022a1@mail.gmail.com> References: <2645f9870906062113p609bd61cqc1e280296c0022a1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: And I forgot the one I used a year ago or so! Sorry Don. http://www.ak6dn.com/PDP-11/TU58-images/ - Henk. From dave09 at dunfield.com Sun Jun 7 07:43:54 2009 From: dave09 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 07:43:54 -0500 Subject: Altos 686 In-Reply-To: References: <1729B331-DBDC-4B93-95DC-3CA1818FE261@earthlink.net> Message-ID: > Thanks, Mike. I know that some part of the stuff is non-Xenix... but my > question was about the Xenix specific. What I told was something that > perhaps Dave don't had in mind when it developed ImageDisk. I speak about > write the output of one IMD image using ImageDisk... but in one RAW image, > not in one physical drive. This raw image could be compatible with some of > the emulators available actually, from SIMH to other for Z80 or PC > platforms. The ImageDisk Utility (IMDU - included with ImageDisk) can do many things with an ImageDisk image including convert it to a raw binary file (linear dump of sectors). Many simulators and emulators can mount that binary file. Dave -- dave09 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Jun 7 09:22:31 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 15:22:31 +0100 Subject: free to a good home (York, UK) Message-ID: <4A2BCD27.5000704@dunnington.plus.com> I've been tidying up again. Always a bad idea, and now I can't find shelf space for the following. All are free to collect from York, or I could post them if you pay P&P: HP JetDirect card, J2552-60001, 10Mb/s with BNC (10base 2), RJ45 (10baseT) and 8-pin mini-DIN (LocalTalk) connectors. Worked fine last time it was in a printer, but hasn't been tested in "quite a while". NEC Multspin CD-ROM drive. Takes a caddy (which I can supply), and may support 512-byte sectors -- ISTR using this to boot SGIs in the distant past. Worked last time I used it but that was years ago. Matrox G45 dual head VGA AGP card (G45FMDHA32DB). I used to use this for photo editing. IIRC it has 32MB on board. Sinclair Spectrum Centronics printer interface, made by Computers For All. Untested, but worked last time I used it. Lear Siegler ADM 5 Dumb Terminal Video Display Unit Users Reference Manual, March 1981. Looks almost new. Cromemco manuals: -- D+7A Input/Output Module Instruction Manual -- 16FDC Floppy Disk Controller Instruction Manual (I have two of those 16FDC manuals, for some reason) US Robotics Sportster 14400 Fax Modem, with PSU. V32bis + V42bis. Plessey Peripheral Systems PM-DDV11/B and PM-DDA11/B Disc Drives Manual for 5 Megabyte 1500 RPM Front Loader. Pair of spare heads for an RL01 drive. Used, taken from a working drive that was cannibalised. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jfoust at threedee.com Sun Jun 7 11:40:04 2009 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 11:40:04 -0500 Subject: Rescue Fwd: pld IBM P/S2 model 30 computer Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20090607113930.048f6860@mail.threedee.com> If interested, respond to Sue below. >From: "Sue Brenner" >To: >Subject: pld IBM P/S2 model 30 computer >Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 09:09:21 -0700 > >Greetings, > >I have an old IBM P/S2 Model 30 in excellent working order I trying to find a home for. >The monitor is the 8512 IBM color monitor. > >I live in the Phoenix area in Arizona. > >The exact model and serial number are: >Model : 8530-021 >Serial: 72-1134784 > >It is all the original issue except I added a Paradise VGA 16-bit internal card along the way. > >If you could put it to good use or know someone who would, I would be glad to arrange to get it to you. > >Jonathan Brenner >gthalo at aol.com >gthalo at cox.net > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 7 12:08:48 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 18:08:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: For pickup: VAX-11/750 and RK07 In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Jun 6, 9 02:08:29 pm Message-ID: > > On Fri, Jun 5, 2009 at 4:08 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> Indeed. =A015 years ago, I was able to save the 11/750 from work, but > >> could not find room for a pair of RK07s and a pickup-truck-load of > > > > I think I'd have takne the drives (and put them on an 11 or something) > > and left the VAX. The 11/750 is not a machine I greatly care for.... > > I've seen your posting about the 11/750 and I cannot refute them given > your interests and proclivities, but this happened to be the machine I Note that I said that I'd take the drives and leave the VAX. Not that that that was necessarily the right thing to do, or the thing that you should have done :-) Of the VAX 11/7xx machines, the 11/750 is my least favourite, due to the fact it's stuffed with gate arrays that are, I assume unobtainable now (and from what I remmeber, when they were avaialble from DEC, they were ridiculously expensive!) If I had the sapce, I'd love an 11/78x. But I don't, so I have an 11/730 that I must get round to looking at [1] That one is 2910s for the data path and rows of unprotected PALs... [1] I've been spending far too much of my time on HP stuff. Maybe I should try another manufacturer for a change :-) > first learned VMS on, the first machine I wrote a UNIX driver on, and > one that' I'd upgraded internally many times (it shipped with 512K and > I upgraded it myself to 8MB to give it five more years of use as the Ah, that's a darn good reason for wanting to keep it :-). I still have a soft spot for the machines I fiest wrote device drivers on, for my own hardware. Namely a TRS-80 Model 3 running LDOS and a CoCo 2 (later a CoCo 3) running OS9. [...] > >> RK07 cartridges. =A0Those were good drives - easy to repair, decent > > > > I am not convinced abotu the 'easy to repair'. I've read the printset, > > and that servo system is _complicated_. And don't you need some rather > > special tools/test gear to fit new heads? > > I don't know about heads - in a decade of running RK07s daily, we > never had to fiddle with heads - we just kept from crashing our packs. > Our failures were all electronics and easy to access, diagnose, and > repair. Yes, the RK07 electronics is certainly easy to get to. It's quite complicated, but given the prints, it is not too hard to figure out what's going on. I suspect sorting out a subtle prolem in that head positioner servo (there seem to be 3 feedback loops, from the optical transducer used for load/unload, from the velocity transducer used when moving, and from the servo head, used when it's locked to a track) could be an interesting job, though. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 7 12:16:21 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 18:16:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: P-System (was Re: PDP 11/73 on the Internet) In-Reply-To: <4A2AC32C.1070103@machineroom.info> from "James Wilson" at Jun 6, 9 08:27:40 pm Message-ID: > UCSD P-system? > > Now theres a name I haven't seen in a while.... 10 or so years ago I This _is_ classiccmp :-) [...] > up by a TV manufacturer. Anyway, the story goes that the P-System was > considered by IBM along with CP/M for the PC. Don't know how much thuth I was under the impression it was actually available for the 5150 PC, but that it was never updated to handle hard drives (so pretty useless on a 5160 PC/XT). > there was to that but even in my time we had several customers still > running P-System natively on a variety of hardware - AppleII, a > contemporary mini (can't remember which) at Norwich Union and some 68K > based (Stride?) systems. > The Sage II (and I assume Sage IV) are 68K machines that normally run the P-system. I've never tried it (too many projects...), but the HP Pascal for the 9000/200 machines looks remarkably like the P-system from the manuals I've seen. And of course the PERQ running the POS operating system had microcode that interpretted something called Q-codes. This was remarkably similar in concept (and architecture IIRC) to the P-system. It was just done properly :-). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 7 12:22:45 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 18:22:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: For pickup: VAX-11/750 and RK07 In-Reply-To: <4A2A72EB.3168.1AC80F7D@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 6, 9 01:45:15 pm Message-ID: > This one has some sort of RS-232 output, but I haven't the faintest > what it indicates, other than "your power just failed". I've got the > software for it somewhere, but have never run it. For older/simpler UPSes, it's quite common for that not to be a real serial port, but just a collection of status lines (mains failed, batteries getting low, etc) which can be read over the 'handshake' inputs of an RS232 port. And the cable might be strange. It might even have components in it. At least one manufacturer put optoisolators in the cable (!). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 7 12:34:14 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 18:34:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: TI Silent 700 model 733 manual In-Reply-To: <20090607003933.GZ8895@n0jcf.net> from "Chris Elmquist" at Jun 6, 9 07:39:33 pm Message-ID: > > This is a well-known problem on all sorts of devices. Someitmes the > > grease will soften with common solvents (propan-2-ol, etc). There's a > > green grease used in some camera lans mounts that goes rock hard with age > > and nothing wil shift it short of scraping it out.... > > yes... I had to clean it out of the raceway of the solonoid as well as > off the plunger. It was really like glue. WD-40 seemed to do a nice > job cutting it actually. I hope you cleaned the WD40 off as well. The problem is that the lighter solvents evaporate and leave a waxy deposity (the longer chain hydrocarbons) behind. Just what you want for its original use of Water Displacemnt, but not what you want in a Silent 700. > > > > I also see that the stepper motor that actually turns the platen (or equiv > > > of) is not making a full increment each time. Sometimes it advances but > > > other times it de-advances. So, something it messed up in the stepper > > > circuit or the grease in that stepper motor has turned to honey too. > > > > Maybe you've lost the drive to one of hte stepper phases. That can make > > them step in thwe wrong direction sometimes. > > That was absolutely it. It was a fun afternoon tracing out the circuit Occasionally i make a good guess :-) > Great stuff. Cool to see all those TTL parts and not a one of them is > LS or HCT or anything close. 74XX was it in 1973. Well, at that time there was also 74Lxx (lower power, slower), 74Hxx (higher power, faster) and 74Sxx (fast!). I've come across all those families in classic HP hardware of that period. > > Note that I have really good luck with modern thermal FAX paper in these > units. Around here it is readily available at office supply stores on I am not suprised. I use it in my HP thermal printers with no problems. My 9866A (full-width thermal printhead, it's a sort of line printer...) just works.... I repaired an HP2761G (moving head thermal printer). I went to a stationers locally, and all they had was 210mm wide paper, the 2761 having a 216mm wide chassis. I found if I positioned the roll just right, it would work, and the head wouldn't snag on the edge of the paper. So I machined a couple of brass disks to put on the paper roll spindle to hold it in the right place. Worked fine, and I was happy until I went to another branch of the same stationers to find they also had 216mm thermal papepr... > 98 ft rolls. They have a 1/2" dia core which needs a piece of dowel > to support it in the 725 (and probably in the 733 too) and it is a much I am sure I can make up something to hold it... -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 7 13:08:06 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 11:08:06 -0700 Subject: For pickup: VAX-11/750 and RK07 In-Reply-To: References: <4A2A72EB.3168.1AC80F7D@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 6, 9 01:45:15 pm, Message-ID: <4A2B9F96.22912.1F5E7FAD@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Jun 2009 at 18:22, Tony Duell wrote: > For older/simpler UPSes, it's quite common for that not to be a real > serial port, but just a collection of status lines (mains failed, > batteries getting low, etc) which can be read over the 'handshake' > inputs of an RS232 port. That's probably the extent of it--there's a DIP switch group that I imagine dictates what goes to what. But no UARTs or other signs of intelligence. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jun 7 13:14:07 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 11:14:07 -0700 Subject: P-System (was Re: PDP 11/73 on the Internet) In-Reply-To: <4A2AC32C.1070103@machineroom.info> References: <4A2AC32C.1070103@machineroom.info> Message-ID: <4A2C036F.1000108@bitsavers.org> James Wilson wrote: > UCSD P-system? > > Now theres a name I haven't seen in a while.... 10 or so years ago I > worked for a company in Bristol (UK) who supposedly had the rights to > the P-System. Do you know anyone who still has the code from them? There is an active P-System Yahoo group, and they have been looking for it. http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/UCSDPascal/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jun 7 13:30:08 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 14:30:08 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: <4A2B8080.9020109@brouhaha.com> References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> <4A2978F2.3000200@gmail.com> <200906051614.15873.vax@purdue.edu> <7F6649CA-BCB5-48E4-B50D-F214CE097715@neurotica.com> <4A2B8080.9020109@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Jun 7, 2009, at 4:55 AM, Eric Smith wrote: >> Yebbut...RT-11 doesn't really do a whole lot. ;) > > Sometimes that's a virtue. Yes, I agree. I'm just a fan of multiuser/multitasking operating systems. I'm aware of foreground/background, but I like to be able to do things like stick compilations in the background, etc. on occasion. >> I'm a RSTS/E and RSX-11 man. > > I don't have much RSX-11 experience, but I definitely like RSTS/E. RSX-11 is very nice too. I'm amazed at how powerful it can be while being so compact. I think RSTS/E is probably my favorite, though. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Jun 7 13:29:48 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 14:29:48 -0400 Subject: P-System (was Re: PDP 11/73 on the Internet) In-Reply-To: <4A2AC32C.1070103@machineroom.info> References: <4A2AC32C.1070103@machineroom.info> Message-ID: <4A2C071C.90002@gmail.com> James Wilson wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: >>> It would be nice to see just about any OS that wasn't basically >>> POSIX, or >>> DOS/Windows running native on a PC. >>> >> >> ROM BASIC? (Technically, it performs some of the functions of an OS) >> Standalone Forth? (there must be at least one..) >> UCSD P-system? >> CP/M-86? >> >> -tony >> > > UCSD P-system? > > Now theres a name I haven't seen in a while.... 10 or so years ago I > worked for a company in Bristol (UK) who supposedly had the rights to > the P-System. Went by the name of Cabot Software, formerly Pecan Systems > IIRC. Great system but didn't keep up with the times. We had the > interpreter running on a selection of digital TV STBs with C as the > preferred source language (no, not a logical choice for the P-System!). > That led to them getting into the MHEG-5 market and eventually swallowed > up by a TV manufacturer. Anyway, the story goes that the P-System was > considered by IBM along with CP/M for the PC. Don't know how much thuth > there was to that but even in my time we had several customers still > running P-System natively on a variety of hardware - AppleII, a > contemporary mini (can't remember which) at Norwich Union and some 68K > based (Stride?) systems. I know for a fact that IBM offered p-System for the PC, because I have a copy of *IBM's* p-System and all its manuals (binder-in-box) for the PC. The binders are blue. The PC-DOS ones are beige/tan, if my memory serves me. Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jun 7 13:39:42 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 14:39:42 -0400 Subject: P-System (was Re: PDP 11/73 on the Internet) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jun 7, 2009, at 1:16 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> there was to that but even in my time we had several customers still >> running P-System natively on a variety of hardware - AppleII, a >> contemporary mini (can't remember which) at Norwich Union and some >> 68K >> based (Stride?) systems. > > The Sage II (and I assume Sage IV) are 68K machines that normally > run the > P-system. I've never tried it (too many projects...), but the HP > Pascal > for the 9000/200 machines looks remarkably like the P-system from the > manuals I've seen. I have a Sage II, with a P-system boot disk. It's neat. I'd love to find CP/M-68K for it though. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun Jun 7 13:55:32 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 19:55:32 +0100 Subject: 1964 Antique MODEM Live Demo In-Reply-To: <5DCEDAB8-409B-4D36-A30D-41B2C33B2119@drexel.edu> References: <5DCEDAB8-409B-4D36-A30D-41B2C33B2119@drexel.edu> Message-ID: <1244400932.4035.8.camel@elric> On Wed, 2009-06-03 at 23:27 +0300, vp wrote: > > Something weird there -- at 6:20 or so, he has a URL on the > screen. It > > looks to me like "http://ww.wikipedia.org". And it connects. But > it is > > "ww" not "www". There is no reason for him to go and fake it, but it > > bugs me nevertheless. > > Maybe the missing "w" was mangled by line noise. Or maybe it was "en.wikipedia.org", which would display the first page he goes to. If it *was* www.wikipedia.org you'd get the language selector. Gordon From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jun 7 14:25:44 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 13:25:44 -0600 Subject: Fwd: [alt.folklore.computer] Workstation Computervision CDS 3000-20 Message-ID: This message has been forwarded from Usenet. To reply to the original author, use the email address from the forwarded message. Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 09:58:10 -0700 (PDT) Groups: alt.folklore.computer From: rainer at terpe.de Org: http://groups.google.com Subject: Workstation Computervision CDS 3000-20 Id: <1c674f21-02d6-4b7a-b81e-26a45e73e2b2 at l32g2000vba.googlegroups.c om> ======== I do not have time enough and I do not have space enough. Therefor I really want to offer my very old workstation Computervision CDS 3000-20. The workstation is made of 2 seperate devices, one device contains mainboard with CPU board, memory board and interface boards, the other device contains hard disk drive and magnetic tape drive. There is also a huge CRT and keyboard. Inside the workstation there is a SUN 2 working. This offer includes various magnetic tapes and some documintation also. I'm not able to say a lot about technical condition because I haven't switched on the workstation for some years. The installation effort is quite high. If someone is interested or is knowing someone who could be interested, please answer to me. I really do not want to scrap this machine. Kind regards, Rainer From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 7 14:33:57 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 20:33:57 +0100 (BST) Subject: P-System (was Re: PDP 11/73 on the Internet) In-Reply-To: from "Dave McGuire" at Jun 7, 9 02:39:42 pm Message-ID: > I have a Sage II, with a P-system boot disk. It's neat. I'd love > to find CP/M-68K for it though. I have a Sage II, a minimal P-system boot disk, but nothing more. And alas I don't have things like the pascal compiler... I do have the excellent user manual with schematics and parts lists. CP/M-68K exited for it. I believe Don Maslin had it, but alas that's no help now :-( -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 7 14:36:26 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 20:36:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: P-System (was Re: PDP 11/73 on the Internet) In-Reply-To: <4A2C071C.90002@gmail.com> from "Sridhar Ayengar" at Jun 7, 9 02:29:48 pm Message-ID: > I know for a fact that IBM offered p-System for the PC, because I have a > copy of *IBM's* p-System and all its manuals (binder-in-box) for the PC. > The binders are blue. The PC-DOS ones are beige/tan, if my memory > serves me. One of them is pink, I forget if that's PC-DOS or BASIC, but probably the latter. Technical reference manuals are purple, Hardware Maintenance and Service (boardswapper guides) are dark blue, and Guide to Operations are red. The former are the ones I tend to read... -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jun 7 14:51:53 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 12:51:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: P-System (was Re: PDP 11/73 on the Internet) In-Reply-To: <4A2AC32C.1070103@machineroom.info> References: <4A2AC32C.1070103@machineroom.info> Message-ID: <20090607124801.T30858@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 6 Jun 2009, James Wilson wrote: > UCSD P-system? > Now theres a name I haven't seen in a while.... 10 or so years ago I > worked for a company in Bristol (UK) who supposedly had the rights to > the P-System. non-exclusive - Regents of University of California (San Diego) > up by a TV manufacturer. Anyway, the story goes that the P-System was > considered by IBM along with CP/M for the PC. Don't know how much thuth > there was to that but even in my time we had several customers still > running P-System natively on a variety of hardware - AppleII, a > contemporary mini (can't remember which) at Norwich Union and some 68K > based (Stride?) systems. I guess that you could say that there was some thuth to the story. IBM, for the 5150, sold PC-DOS (MS-DOS), CP/M-86, and UCSD P System. Crunch! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Jun 7 12:05:17 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 13:05:17 -0400 Subject: Master of Orion (was: PDP 11/73 on the Internet) In-Reply-To: References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu> <4A2978F2.3000200@gmail.com> <4A2AB121.7040600@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 12:09 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 2:36 PM -0400 6/6/09, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >> I happen to enjoy playing corny-looking games, but I happen to own >> original copies and was playing them when they were the latest thing. >> I still have Master of Orion I close at hand, plus a few others. > > Take a look at the Mac version if you can find it. That might be a little bit obscure, but I'll look for it. I never did much Mac gaming, mostly Risk and NetTrek (and the occasional Infocom game). > ?I forget just how large > of a screen it supports, but it's most of a 1024x1280 display (not all). Nice. > ?Same with Warlords II, while on DOS you're limited to 640x480 for both. Yeah. I remember playing a lot of DOS games, and they held their own until 800x600 became the norm. Thanks for the tip. -ethan From spedraja at ono.com Sun Jun 7 16:55:15 2009 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 23:55:15 +0200 Subject: Altos 686 In-Reply-To: References: <1729B331-DBDC-4B93-95DC-3CA1818FE261@earthlink.net> Message-ID: Hello: > The ImageDisk Utility (IMDU - included with ImageDisk) can do many things > with an ImageDisk image including convert it to a raw binary file (linear > dump of sectors). Many simulators and emulators can mount that binary file. > I checked it by myself. At least the first attemps made readable the content of IMD expanded with a simple "type". Thanks ! Regards Sergio From dm561 at torfree.net Sun Jun 7 18:08:46 2009 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 19:08:46 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet Message-ID: <01C9E7A5.8D4502A0@MSE_D03> Date: Sat, 06 Jun 2009 22:57:23 -0700 From: "Chuck Guzis" Subject: Re: PDP 11/73 on the Internet >Try doing your program development on a keypunch, with a 407 for 80- >80 listing. >Get off my lawn... >Chuck ------ You were lucky! We had to punch the cards with a Wright Line one-character-at-a-time manual punch and read our "listings" off the top of the cards... ;-) I gave up on my lawn long ago... m From dm561 at torfree.net Sun Jun 7 18:24:08 2009 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 19:24:08 -0400 Subject: More vintage hardware still alive and kickin' Message-ID: <01C9E7A5.8ED65100@MSE_D03> ---------------Original Message: From: "Chuck Guzis" Subject: Re: More vintage hardware still alive and kickin' To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <4A2A780F.19281.1ADC248A at cclist.sydex.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII >On 6 Jun 2009 at 20:47, Andrew Burton wrote: >> I'm just curious... how many cards would a machine like that sort >> through in a day, or a week? That counter has 6 digits and it sorted >> ~90 cards in less than 10 seconds. >Well, an 083 will feed about 1000 cards/minute and a good operator >can keep it running all day. How many cards could be sorted, >depends, of course, on the number of colums being sorted (one pass >per column, plus fumble and jam time... >--Chuck ------------Reply: Oh yeah! A jam would really cut into your production, especially if the sense switches didn't shut it down quickly or at all; the cards would crumple and pile up pretty quickly. And of course since you were handling stacks of 4000+ cards sooner or later you inevitably dropped one, sending them literally sailing around the room; digging them out from under all the other machines really made your day... Fond memories of my days as a junior operator... m From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jun 7 18:45:32 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 16:45:32 -0700 Subject: P-System (was Re: PDP 11/73 on the Internet) In-Reply-To: <20090607124801.T30858@shell.lmi.net> References: <4A2AC32C.1070103@machineroom.info> <20090607124801.T30858@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4A2C511C.8020906@bitsavers.org> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Sat, 6 Jun 2009, James Wilson wrote: >> UCSD P-system? >> Now theres a name I haven't seen in a while.... 10 or so years ago I >> worked for a company in Bristol (UK) who supposedly had the rights to >> the P-System. > > non-exclusive - Regents of University of California (San Diego) > As I understand it, the UC Regents sold the rights to Softech, who then sold it to Pecan. The PC version was from Softech. HP sold a heavily modified version for the 9836, called the Pascal Workstation, which was sold as an alternative to BASIC. CHM is in the process of getting HP to grant us a non-commercial license for the Pascal Workstation software. We have what survived from Colorado Springs for the product, just have to get the paperwork finished and the media holding the sources recovered. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 7 18:46:52 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 16:46:52 -0700 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: <01C9E7A5.8D4502A0@MSE_D03> References: <01C9E7A5.8D4502A0@MSE_D03> Message-ID: <4A2BEEFC.22305.20946200@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Jun 2009 at 19:08, M H Stein wrote: > You were lucky! We had to punch the cards with a Wright Line > one-character-at-a-time manual punch and read our "listings" > off the top of the cards... > ;-) Heh. You must have worked for GM. :p At one place I worked, there were a couple of 024 keypunches, which didn't print across the top of the card and many punctuation characters had to be multi-punched. At CDC Sunnyvale, one of programmers in CPD was blind. Cards were very easy for him to read--and he didn't have to bother running them through the IBM 557... --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jun 7 18:47:11 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 16:47:11 -0700 Subject: P-System (was Re: PDP 11/73 on the Internet) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A2C517F.9090700@bitsavers.org> Dave McGuire wrote: > I have a Sage II, with a P-system boot disk. It's neat. I'd love to > find CP/M-68K for it though. > try http://www.sageandstride.org/ From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jun 7 18:48:05 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 16:48:05 -0700 Subject: P-System (was Re: PDP 11/73 on the Internet) In-Reply-To: <4A2C511C.8020906@bitsavers.org> References: <4A2AC32C.1070103@machineroom.info> <20090607124801.T30858@shell.lmi.net> <4A2C511C.8020906@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4A2C51B5.9030301@bitsavers.org> Al Kossow wrote: > We have what survived from Colorado > Springs for the product argh.. Fort Collins not Colorado Springs From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 7 19:05:32 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 17:05:32 -0700 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: References: <4A274E21.4030604@mail.msu.edu>, <575131af0906060600y773232c4qcecd9f0cc66bdba1@mail.gmail.com>, Message-ID: <4A2BF35C.5097.20A56D28@cclist.sydex.com> Somebody wrote: > It would be nice to see just about any OS that wasn't basically > POSIX, or DOS/Windows running native on a PC. I was cleaning one of my bookcases out and found a DDJ tucked in between two binders. May, 1994. There's an article about a "roll your own 32-bit OS" called MMURTL. A quick google shows: http://www.ipdatacorp.com/mmurtl.htm and http://www.ipdatacorp.com/mmpd.html Dave Dunfield may know more about MMURTL's current state, as his name is mentioned in connection with it. A funny from the same DDJ was an article with the lede "Will we gain portability at the expense of performance?" Answer: not really, we'll just lose performance at the expense of creeping featurism-- even Macs are x86 now. --Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Sun Jun 7 19:12:29 2009 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 01:12:29 +0100 Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380906061213u7d229f9euc33cf5c5f4a6d8f5@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380906052055o6dc4a1bfg2a042dfaff6cc3aa@mail.gmail.com> <200906060609.n5669wsF023320@floodgap.com> <6dbe3c380906061213u7d229f9euc33cf5c5f4a6d8f5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0906071712qcc18ab5jdcb6f335d6b093de@mail.gmail.com> 2009/6/6 Brian Lanning : > On Sat, Jun 6, 2009 at 1:09 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> You could try zapping PRAM (Cmd-Opt-P-R as the machine starts up; let it >> chime a couple times with the keys held down) but this may not help as the >> bogus System Folder will still be blessed. A sure fix would be to boot >> from a valid secondary device, but with a bum floppy drive you're really >> hosed. > > I'll try this tonight. > >> I'm suspecting the Mac you have was messed up by its previous owner -- a >> lot of these errors would be inexplicable with normal use. A full reinstall >> of 7.6 or 8.1 from an external CD-ROM would be strongly advised. > > An apple CDROM drive, like the 300 or 600 is on the shopping list. > Any ideas where I can get a OS image I can burn from vista? > > Also, which version would be best on a quadra 700? ?I've heard that > 7.6 was best for performance, but I care less about performance and > more about functionality. ?Is there an advantage to upgrading to 8.1? > > The scsi hard drive that's in there now is a smaller capacity, but > it's half-height, slightly too big for the case. ?The top latches in > place, but you have to bend it slightly to do that. ?I have a 1gig > scsi drive(1" high, quantum iirc) ?from an amiga that I can use > instead. ?If I'm going to reinstall the OS, maybe I should go that > route. ?Anything I should consider before trying to do that? > > Does anyone make a scsi floppy drive that I could put in my external > enclosure? ?Do these even exist? ?What about zip/jaz/syquest drives? > > Is it possible to install 7.6 or 8.1, then pull the hard drive and > attach it to a PC, mount the mac parition, and copy a large number of > disk images over? ?I have a PCI adaptec scsi controller floating > around somwhere. ?What about booting from an ubuntu CD? > > Another angle is the adaptec scsi disk in a PC, copy files over, mount > the disk on a mac. ?I have another 100gig disk I could use for this. > Are there any non-mac file systems that the mac can mount, like maybe > fat32? > > Also, where can I buy two new/refurb mac floppy drives? > > thanks > > brian Erm. I already answered some of these questions. If you'd like to reply to my message from yesterday, pointing out which bits I've not addressed, I'll see what I can tell you. If you're prepared to pay shipping from the UK, I'll post a Mac floppy drive or two for free. Same for a couple of smallish Mac SCSI hard disks. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jun 7 19:29:28 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 20:29:28 -0400 Subject: P-System (was Re: PDP 11/73 on the Internet) In-Reply-To: <4A2C517F.9090700@bitsavers.org> References: <4A2C517F.9090700@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Jun 7, 2009, at 7:47 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> I have a Sage II, with a P-system boot disk. It's neat. I'd >> love to find CP/M-68K for it though. > > try http://www.sageandstride.org/ Whoa, thanks! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From brianlanning at gmail.com Sun Jun 7 20:25:08 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 20:25:08 -0500 Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) In-Reply-To: <575131af0906060742j3fda34bfl418f5c23fd7ca811@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380906042247p488bb10ete9fa7d369fb304b0@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0906060742j3fda34bfl418f5c23fd7ca811@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380906071825t274f84e3r502aa3caa167b30a@mail.gmail.com> Sorry, I didn't see this email until today. Gmail has a tendency to stack things up and hide them from me. > Quadra 700 - so it's a 25MHz 68040. How much RAM has it got? I can't check now since it's hosed. But I believe it's 4megs. There's 4 simms in there I know. > I'd strongly suggest, as others have observed, wiping it & installing > MacOS 8.1. It's got much better TCP/IP handling and also better > handling of alien disk formats. You might even have a chance of > recognising and handling a DVD, though I wouldn't put money on it. > A bit more info as to why: > http://lowendmac.com/sable/06/0911.html > 8.1 boot CDs are rare. It's easier to get a copy of 8.0 and download > and install the free 8.1 update, which Apple still offers. > If you're really stuck, I might be able to find a spare CD of 8.0 > somewhere for you. I've ordered a 600e cdrom drive and also one auto-inject floppy drive, but i need one for the IIfx also. Still can't find an 8.0 cd. What would it cost to send a floppy drive and the 8.0 cd? Also, do you have some VRAM simms that you would be willing to part with? > It'll still require 3rd party tools to talk to a Windows network, > though. If you have NT Server, though, it has a Mac file-sharing mode, > even back in NT3. That will work fine. Once floppies are working, that should be straight-forward. > For 3rd party hard disks, you also need a 3rd party tool, although > it's not a driver as such - it's just a partitioner/formatter. > (Technically, it embeds the driver into the partition structure of the > drive, so the MacOS automatically loads it the 1st time that it sees > the drive. This is transparent - you can even boot off such a drive.) > I use SilverLining but there's also a LaCie tool and various others - > most vendors of 3rd party SCSI hard disks offered them. There are three or four of these sorts of things on the machine already. When I put the new disk in, I'll put the old one in the external box and pull the software off. > In my experience, reading non-Mac CDs on Classic MacOS is very iffy, > especially if they're home-burned ones. I've never found an adequate > way around this. It's /supposed/ to work but often won't. I'll tinker. Once it's on the network, even with just ftp, I won't really need to read CDs anymore, although it would certainly make things easier. brian From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Sun Jun 7 20:43:13 2009 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles Morris) Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 20:43:13 -0500 Subject: Calculator repair fun Message-ID: <79qo2553scb70drjipdflsbt379fd52tlh@4ax.com> This is a perfect example of why I never throw anything away... a couple of months ago I found a nice Craig (Bowmar) 8-digit calculator at an antique mall for $3. No charger, so of course it didn't work. Finally got around to disassembling it - the six AA nicads had leaked grossly but fortunately did little damage to the board above it. Powered it up from a bench supply and promptly discovered that one segment of one digit wouldn't light... not much good in a calculator since 8 and 9 looked the same :( But - I looked in my "LED drawer" and there was a little PCB with eight MAN-3A displays mounted on it. I remember buying that out of my pocket money at Radio Shack (couldn't have been Poly Paks because it works) when I was about 12. And that was thirty-five years ago... It was the same overall size as the one-piece (bare LEDs with bonding wires beneath a glued-on red lens) display PCB that was in there. And a battery and resistor showed that it had the same common-cathode matrix, and even the same number of connections! I unsoldered the old display and double-checked that the one digit's segment was indeed bad - put in the new display, powered back up and it worked 100% :) I even had two three-packs of AA nicads bought at Marden's (an odd-lots store in Maine) several years ago because they were on sale... so I installed them in the base, screwed everything back together, the calculator is now working perfectly! So that's why I never throw anything away. Who'd have thought that an LED display stick I bought over 30 years ago would find a home in an early 70's calculator... in 2009. Of course now I have yet another vintage four-function calculator I don't need, but it still feels good to fix something that would otherwise have ended up in the trash. From brianlanning at gmail.com Sun Jun 7 20:44:54 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 20:44:54 -0500 Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380906071825t274f84e3r502aa3caa167b30a@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380906042247p488bb10ete9fa7d369fb304b0@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0906060742j3fda34bfl418f5c23fd7ca811@mail.gmail.com> <6dbe3c380906071825t274f84e3r502aa3caa167b30a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380906071844o903ca4bjf7b7f0cd675f88a7@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 8:25 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: > Still can't find an 8.0 cd. Fleabay had a full retail 8.0 cd for $16. Should be here in a week or so. :-) brian From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 7 21:05:06 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 07 Jun 2009 19:05:06 -0700 Subject: Calculator repair fun In-Reply-To: <79qo2553scb70drjipdflsbt379fd52tlh@4ax.com> References: <79qo2553scb70drjipdflsbt379fd52tlh@4ax.com> Message-ID: <4A2C0F62.5259.21131A2F@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Jun 2009 at 20:43, Charles Morris wrote: > So that's why I never throw anything away. Who'd have thought that an > LED display stick I bought over 30 years ago would find a home in an > early 70's calculator... in 2009. Of course now I have yet another > vintage four-function calculator I don't need, but it still feels good > to fix something that would otherwise have ended up in the trash. I hate throwing things away particularly if they're not working (I don't mind giving away working things) I recently repaired a cordless drill with a MOSFET taken from an old 1/2" tape drive controller board. I figure that it's a disease. --Chuck From tosteve at yahoo.com Sun Jun 7 21:26:41 2009 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 19:26:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Cheap" Kaypro II, Baltimore, Maryland Message-ID: <960458.44480.qm@web110604.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Deborah Becker has a Kaypro II, contact her (not me) if interested! She would like a few dollars, make an offer. Printer and books included. Location is actually Catonsville 21228 Her email is: comemy69 at aol.com From brianlanning at gmail.com Sun Jun 7 21:30:19 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 21:30:19 -0500 Subject: Calculator repair fun In-Reply-To: <4A2C0F62.5259.21131A2F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <79qo2553scb70drjipdflsbt379fd52tlh@4ax.com> <4A2C0F62.5259.21131A2F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380906071930y1aed6e91t3c7fb7e194e53402@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 9:05 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 7 Jun 2009 at 20:43, Charles Morris wrote: > >> So that's why I never throw anything away. Who'd have thought that an >> LED display stick I bought over 30 years ago would find a home in an >> early 70's calculator... in 2009. Of course now I have yet another >> vintage four-function calculator I don't need, but it still feels good >> to fix something that would otherwise have ended up in the trash. > > I hate throwing things away particularly if they're not working (I > don't mind giving away working things) ?I recently repaired a > cordless drill with a MOSFET taken from an old 1/2" tape drive > controller board. > > I figure that it's a disease. I'm still mourning the loss of things I got rid of over the years. I had an original 5150 with the high persistence monochrome monitor and single sided full height floppy drives. I also had an amiga 500. I had a number of vintage hand-held games also, like that classic red display football game, a merlin, that little professor math educational calculator thing, a colecovision, and a big track with the dump truck trailer. But the worst of all was a nintendo famicom with a dozen games and the computer keyboard and cartidge add-on that I bought new in person in japan back in the early 80s. Then when my wife's grandfather was nearing his end, I had the option to acquire all of his vintage computers including an apple 2e, and another computer I haven't quite identified. I believe it was a TRS-80. The give-away for everyone here would be that it came with a suitcase that fit all the pieces. Anyway, I passed on all of it and grandma put it at the curb. Face-palm. Most of my stuff went through various garage sales over the years. I've managed to replace some of it. But other things would be expensive to replace now. And now that I'm old enough to feel a perceived quality difference between things that I used in the 70s and 80 vs things now, it's getting difficult for me to throw anything out. Will things be even crappier in 10 or 20 years? I'm really starting to resist the disposable society. I'm also seriously into woodworking which is a disease all by itself. Woodworkers never throw out wood scraps figuring they'll fit perfectly somewhere eventually, same for dull drill bits and chisels we'll sharpen some day. Then there's vintage machinery. The only way to buy woodworking machines that are made in america now is to buy used. It's an extreme case of "they don't make them like they used to". The chinese machines in my shop are very serviceable, but it's just not the same. I have plans to eventually restore a 40s or 50s era tablesaw (and others) when I find the time. brian From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Jun 7 21:41:29 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 19:41:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380906071825t274f84e3r502aa3caa167b30a@mail.gmail.com> from Brian Lanning at "Jun 7, 9 08:25:08 pm" Message-ID: <200906080241.n582fTU5021076@floodgap.com> > > Quadra 700 - so it's a 25MHz 68040. How much RAM has it got? > > I can't check now since it's hosed. But I believe it's 4megs. > There's 4 simms in there I know. For 8.1 you will need much more than 4MB -- 4MB would run 7.1 comfortably but 7.6 is going to be unhappy and 8.1 will probably not even start (that might have been the problem you had). Definitely verify total RAM. I wouldn't attempt 8.1 with anything less than 16MB of RAM, and even that is going to be somewhat painful. Try for 32MB. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Time wounds all heels. -- Groucho Marx ------------------------------------- From brianlanning at gmail.com Sun Jun 7 21:47:05 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 21:47:05 -0500 Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) In-Reply-To: <200906080241.n582fTU5021076@floodgap.com> References: <6dbe3c380906071825t274f84e3r502aa3caa167b30a@mail.gmail.com> <200906080241.n582fTU5021076@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380906071947q3365903ev506f578b6aca30d6@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 9:41 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> > Quadra 700 - so it's a 25MHz 68040. How much RAM has it got? >> >> I can't check now since it's hosed. ?But I believe it's 4megs. >> There's 4 simms in there I know. > > For 8.1 you will need much more than 4MB -- 4MB would run 7.1 comfortably > but 7.6 is going to be unhappy and 8.1 will probably not even start (that > might have been the problem you had). Definitely verify total RAM. I wouldn't > attempt 8.1 with anything less than 16MB of RAM, and even that is going to > be somewhat painful. Try for 32MB. I could easily be wrong. It might be 4 4s instead of 4 1s. brian From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Jun 7 22:09:05 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 20:09:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380906071947q3365903ev506f578b6aca30d6@mail.gmail.com> from Brian Lanning at "Jun 7, 9 09:47:05 pm" Message-ID: <200906080309.n58395d2013804@floodgap.com> > I could easily be wrong. It might be 4 4s instead of 4 1s. That does seem more likely for 7.6. Even that will be tight for 8.1, however. It should start, but it will be tight. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Art is either plagiarism or revolution. -- Paul Gauguin -------------------- From iamvirtual at gmail.com Sun Jun 7 17:32:05 2009 From: iamvirtual at gmail.com (B M) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 16:32:05 -0600 Subject: loading disk image on PDP-11 Message-ID: <2645f9870906071532o3c5280ednb1e52c6f6290057@mail.gmail.com> > Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 22:13:45 -0600 > Subject: loading disk image on PDP-11 > From: iamvirtual at gmail.com > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > > I am finally ready to load a disk image onto a RK05 disk for my > PDP-11/10. I have RK05 disk images for RSTS-11 (my goal). > > What is the easiest way to load the disk image onto a RK05 cartridge? > > I was thinking of using vtserver to transfer the image over a serial > line, but the 'copy' program is not compatible with my PDP-11/05 (it > uses the 'mul' and 'div' instructions which is not available on my > PDP-11/10). > > Here is what I have available: > PDP-11/10 with 32kw core memory > serial connection (max 2400 baud) > RK05 (non-bootable cartridge but does load properly) > external dual TU58 DecTapeII drive > > Many thanks for any information. I am really looking for a nudge in > the right direction. ;-) > > --barrym Henk Gooijen henk.gooijen at hotmail.com wrote: > >Have a peek at http://www.fpns.net/willy/pdp11/tu58-emu.htm > >- Henk How would one go about installing a RSTS-11 disk image onto the RK05 using the TU-58 (assuming there is a bootstrap!) ? Thanks. --barrym From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Sun Jun 7 21:02:53 2009 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (CSquared) Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 21:02:53 -0500 Subject: anyone read dealers of lightning? References: <4A274C2E.6030705@verizon.net><4A275CE6.9020103@atarimuseum.com> <4A27602D.4090504@snarc.net> <4A294FFF.8070301@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <001c01c9e7dd$3c680b10$6400a8c0@acerd3c08b49af> I've been following all the comments about Soul with considerable interest. Am I the only one who found it a bit sad? I finally got around to reading it a couple of years ago, and it seemed to me to describe all too accurately what strikes me as the employee abuse that characterized way too much of the engineering development process during that era. Later, Charlie Carothers -- My email address is csquared3 at tx dot rr dot com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Arachelian" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, June 05, 2009 12:03 PM Subject: Re: anyone read dealers of lightning? > Mark Davidson wrote: >> Oh no, I have to agree with Curt... Soul Of A New Machine is a great >> read, as was Dealers. Of course, I'm a huge DG fan so I'm probably >> biased a bit. ;) >> > I'm not specifically a DG fan and I've enjoyed Soul of a New Machine > quite a bit. :-) > So there's another data point. > > From spedraja at ono.com Mon Jun 8 04:46:01 2009 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:46:01 +0200 Subject: Mounting one Xenix Altos 686 disk img under Linux or Unix virtual system Message-ID: Hello. As a continuation of the Altos 686 previous messages, I should like to know if someone could have one Linux or Unix system (or virtual appliance that which could be used under one simulator) with the kernel support for SysV and Xenix filesystems active. The objective would be to mount one raw image of the Altos 686 Xenix diskettes and access its contents. Regards Sergio From r.bazzano at ulm.it Mon Jun 8 06:22:20 2009 From: r.bazzano at ulm.it (Roberto Bazzano) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 13:22:20 +0200 Subject: DTC-510B controller Message-ID: <525F300ED06D4D86862557450CD75356@HPRoberto> Hello. I'm trying to replace a Xebec S1410A SASI controller with a Data Technology Corp. DTC-510B or DTC-510A, for a old homebrew computer (http://www.z80ne.com) The problem is that, even if the controllers should be "almost" compatible, the DTC-510A/B doesn't work (while the Xebec works fine). I'm not able to find any manual about it, only some dipswitch settings. Perhaps has someone a user manual for DTC-510B (and DTC-510A) so that I can compare commands, configurations, etc. with Xebec S1410A? Thank you very much. Roberto Bazzano From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon Jun 8 06:25:13 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 12:25:13 +0100 Subject: Calculator repair fun In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380906071930y1aed6e91t3c7fb7e194e53402@mail.gmail.com> References: <79qo2553scb70drjipdflsbt379fd52tlh@4ax.com> <4A2C0F62.5259.21131A2F@cclist.sydex.com> <6dbe3c380906071930y1aed6e91t3c7fb7e194e53402@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1244460314.21598.8.camel@elric> On Sun, 2009-06-07 at 21:30 -0500, Brian Lanning wrote: > Face-palm. Sorry Jay, for mentioning cars yet again in a classic computing thread, but I know where there's a really solid 1977 Mini Clubman estate. Interior good, paint a little dull but nothing that wouldn't polish up. Only thing wrong was the head gasket blew and in 1988 it just wasn't worth repairing. An identical one (similar registration even) went on eBay about a month ago, for ?4000. I can even tell you where to start digging, and how deep... Gordon From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jun 8 07:38:13 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 06:38:13 -0600 Subject: SRP aids unit testing Message-ID: I've been retrofitting tests onto legacy code at work as I make some changes to it. (So what's new?) The code has classes that are not really following the singlre responsibility principle. The other day I extracted a class to separate out a responsibility. Once I did that, I could more easily fit tests for that single responsibility onto the newly extracted class. When a class does too many things, its really hard to write tests for it, because you have to configure the universe in order to setup the initial conditions for the test. With a single responsibility the amount of setup is much less and the setup is directly relevant to the test you're trying to write. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dave09 at dunfield.com Mon Jun 8 08:43:29 2009 From: dave09 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 08:43:29 -0500 Subject: Altos 686 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <14CB56797E30@dunfield.com> > > The ImageDisk Utility (IMDU - included with ImageDisk) can do many things > > with an ImageDisk image including convert it to a raw binary file (linear > > dump of sectors). Many simulators and emulators can mount that binary file. > > > > I checked it by myself. At least the first attemps made readable the content > of IMD expanded with a simple "type". Thanks ! There's also IMDV (IMageDisk Viewer) which lets you examining the content of an IMD file as hex/ascii dumps, can search for strings, find and display all strings etc. -- dave09 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jun 8 08:03:02 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 07:03:02 -0600 Subject: SRP aids unit testing In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 08 Jun 2009 06:38:13 -0600. Message-ID: Gahhh... damn sleepy fingers sent this to the wrong mailing list, sorry guys. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 06:39:03 2009 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 07:39:03 -0400 Subject: cctalkDigest, June 4, 2009, History of the Microcomputer Message-ID: >From June 4, 2009, cctalkDigest, Vol. 70, Issue 12, Message 27: "Question on, A Historical Research Guide to the Microcomputer, 2nd Edition." Thanks Christian for mentioning my book. It's a Canadian perspective on what is essentially an American invention though a Canadian played an important role in the birth of the microcomputer! The highly electronized tool, albeit one from bygone days, we use on a daily basis - I use the Coleco ADAM, has a fascinating history. Murray McCullough From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jun 8 10:20:25 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 08:20:25 -0700 Subject: DTC-510B controller In-Reply-To: <525F300ED06D4D86862557450CD75356@HPRoberto> References: <525F300ED06D4D86862557450CD75356@HPRoberto> Message-ID: <4A2D2C39.5050305@bitsavers.org> Roberto Bazzano wrote: > Hello. > I'm trying to replace a Xebec S1410A SASI controller with a Data > Technology Corp. DTC-510B or DTC-510A, for a old homebrew computer > (http://www.z80ne.com) > > The problem is that, even if the controllers should be "almost" > compatible, the DTC-510A/B doesn't work (while the Xebec works fine). > I'm not able to find any manual about it, only some dipswitch settings. > > Perhaps has someone a user manual for DTC-510B (and DTC-510A) so that I > can compare commands, configurations, etc. with Xebec S1410A? > I have uploaded the manual for the 4 drive version (520A) to bitsavers. Before SCSI, there was no common command set for disc adapters. I seriously doubt the on-disk format or the command set is exactly compatible between Xebec and DTC. From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Jun 8 10:50:53 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 08:50:53 -0700 Subject: TC08 documentation Message-ID: Hi all, I'm troubleshooting a TC08 DECtape controller, and one thing I'm missing is the module 'utilization' (placement) guide that exists in other documentation (e.g. TC01, TU56). It appears from sequence numbers that the online copy of the TC08 Maintenance Manual might be missing that page. Does anyone have a copy that they would be willing to scan? I want to know which G888 is which, i.e. which one serves the mark track, which the diagnostics tell me is not happy. Also, the maintenance guide states that there are values for various settings on the engineering diagrams; no such values appear on the drawings in the appendix to the maintenance guide. Does anyone have the engineering drawings for the TC08? Thanks -- Ian Ian King, Vintage Systems Engineer PDP Planet Project Vulcan, Inc. http://www.pdpplanet.com From spedraja at ono.com Mon Jun 8 12:12:56 2009 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:12:56 +0200 Subject: Altos 686 In-Reply-To: <14CB56797E30@dunfield.com> References: <14CB56797E30@dunfield.com> Message-ID: Thanks, Dave. I used it and let me see the contents of the image disk file. Some garbage information appears from time to time between the cobol text. I suppose this is information from the disk track itself or some kind of binary... I shall not know it until I can mount the image in one Unix or Linux system. Regards Sergio 2009/6/8 Dave Dunfield > > > The ImageDisk Utility (IMDU - included with ImageDisk) can do many > things > > > with an ImageDisk image including convert it to a raw binary file > (linear > > > dump of sectors). Many simulators and emulators can mount that binary > file. > > > > > > > I checked it by myself. At least the first attemps made readable the > content > > of IMD expanded with a simple "type". Thanks ! > > There's also IMDV (IMageDisk Viewer) which lets you examining the content > of an > IMD file as hex/ascii dumps, can search for strings, find and display all > strings > etc. > > -- > dave09 (at) Dave Dunfield > dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com > com Collector of vintage computing equipment: > http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html > From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jun 8 12:19:04 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 10:19:04 -0700 Subject: TC08 documentation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A2D4808.2070004@bitsavers.org> Ian King wrote: > Hi all, > > It appears from sequence numbers that the online copy of the TC08 Maintenance Manual might be missing that page. It looks like the even numbered schematic pages may all be missing. I'm checking to see if I forgot to scan them. From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 12:24:25 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 13:24:25 -0400 Subject: P-System (was Re: PDP 11/73 on the Internet) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A2D4949.6080509@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> I know for a fact that IBM offered p-System for the PC, because I have a >> copy of *IBM's* p-System and all its manuals (binder-in-box) for the PC. >> The binders are blue. The PC-DOS ones are beige/tan, if my memory >> serves me. > > > One of them is pink, I forget if that's PC-DOS or BASIC, but probably the > latter. BASIC is definitely pink. Peace... Sridhar From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 8 12:57:06 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 18:57:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: P-System (was Re: PDP 11/73 on the Internet) In-Reply-To: <4A2C517F.9090700@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Jun 7, 9 04:47:11 pm Message-ID: > > Dave McGuire wrote: > > > I have a Sage II, with a P-system boot disk. It's neat. I'd love to > > find CP/M-68K for it though. > > > > try http://www.sageandstride.org/ Thanks for that. I see the P-system disks are there too... I am going to have to get imagedisk running on my strange machine... And then dig out the Sage, and replace the chip I 'borrowed' from it (the fact that all ICs are socketed measn it was a prime candidate as a donor :-(). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 8 13:04:50 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:04:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: Calculator repair fun In-Reply-To: <79qo2553scb70drjipdflsbt379fd52tlh@4ax.com> from "Charles Morris" at Jun 7, 9 08:43:13 pm Message-ID: > > This is a perfect example of why I never throw anything away... I think that applies to most people on this list, or at least most hardware types here. I certainly have things that other (sane?) people would have thrown away years ago. And one day they come in very useful... > > a couple of months ago I found a nice Craig (Bowmar) 8-digit > calculator at an antique mall for $3. No charger, so of course it > didn't work. > > =46inally got around to disassembling it - the six AA nicads had leaked > grossly but fortunately did little damage to the board above it. > Powered it up from a bench supply and promptly discovered that one > segment of one digit wouldn't light... not much good in a calculator > since 8 and 9 looked the same :( > > But - I looked in my "LED drawer" and there was a little PCB with Ah, yopu actaully sort your bits. I just have a houseful, and hope I can rememebr where I've put things.... > eight MAN-3A displays mounted on it. I remember buying that out of my > pocket money at Radio Shack (couldn't have been Poly Paks because it > works) when I was about 12. And that was thirty-five years ago... > > It was the same overall size as the one-piece (bare LEDs with bonding > wires beneath a glued-on red lens) display PCB that was in there. And > a battery and resistor showed that it had the same common-cathode > matrix, and even the same number of connections! I unsoldered the old > display and double-checked that the one digit's segment was indeed bad > - put in the new display, powered back up and it worked 100% :) I rememebr once repairing a friend's Novus calculator using a display taken from a dead Commoodore machine. Like you, it looked the same, had the same number of pins. and a bit of testing with PSU and resistor showed the connections were the same (as far as I could test, the working segments in the defective display were wired between the same pins on the good display). > So that's why I never throw anything away. Who'd have thought that an > LED display stick I bought over 30 years ago would find a home in an > early 70's calculator... in 2009. Of course now I have yet another > vintage four-function calculator I don't need, but it still feels good > to fix something that would otherwise have ended up in the trash. One of my favourite HPs is a 'worthless' HP45. It's worthless because it's in very poor condition (legends rubbed off, the display digits aren't all the same size, etc). And the reason I like it is becasue I built it from junk. A collection of bits from anotehr HPCC memeber. The displays (3 off 5 digit modules) came off a couple of boards (which is why they're not all the same size), the logic board has a A&R (Arithmetic and Registers) chip taken from another board, and a transistor from my junk box, etc. Works fine... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 8 13:07:09 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:07:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: Calculator repair fun In-Reply-To: <4A2C0F62.5259.21131A2F@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 7, 9 07:05:06 pm Message-ID: > I hate throwing things away particularly if they're not working (I > don't mind giving away working things) I recently repaired a > cordless drill with a MOSFET taken from an old 1/2" tape drive > controller board. Round here, it would more likely be the reverse -- fixing a magtape controller using a transistor taken from a cordless drill :-)... I think I mentioned I once raided a CRT from a portable TV to fix a somewhat odd terminal (Volker-Craig VC414 with APL character set). -tony From vrs at msn.com Mon Jun 8 13:59:20 2009 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 11:59:20 -0700 Subject: TC08 documentation References: Message-ID: > I'm troubleshooting a TC08 DECtape controller, and one thing I'm > missing is the module 'utilization' (placement) guide that exists > in other documentation (e.g. TC01, TU56). It's in the FSTM: http://www.pdp8online.com/bklatt/TechTips.html http://www.pdp8online.com/bklatt/705.png Vince From trag at io.com Mon Jun 8 14:06:18 2009 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 14:06:18 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7926644e39f21d8ad873d0b6857ddeb0.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> > Date: Sun, 7 Jun 2009 21:47:05 -0500 > From: Brian Lanning > On Sun, Jun 7, 2009 at 9:41 PM, Cameron Kaiser > wrote: >>> > Quadra 700 > I could easily be wrong. It might be 4 4s instead of 4 1s. The Q700 has 4 MB soldered to the logic board and four 30-pin SIMM sockets. So the minimum RAM is 4 MB unless someone has been stealing chips off of the thing. With four SIMMs installed, it should have at least 8 MB, although if 256KB SIMMs were supported it could be as low as 5 MB. I don't remember if they were. It supports up to 16 MB SIMMs, so the maximum RAM possible is 68 MB. Its big brother, the Quadra 900, supports up to 256 MB of RAM with sixteen 30-pin SIMM sockets. Pretty good for a computer from 1991. Jeff Walther From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Mon Jun 8 15:30:41 2009 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 16:30:41 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Remembering_the_true*_first_portable_?= =?windows-1252?Q?computer_=95_The_Register?= Message-ID: <4A2D74F1.2090104@sbcglobal.net> And on the last page, they give credit to CHM for letting them "drool over the machinery": http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/05/tob_minuteman_1/ -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ "From there to here, From here to there, Funny things are everywhere." --- Dr. Seuss From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Jun 8 15:57:51 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 13:57:51 -0700 Subject: TC08 documentation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks! On that same site, one of my colleagues found the step-by-step alignment procedure for a TC08, including all those values that weren't on the drawings. I'm taking a break from going through that - it does involve getting one's self into some interesting positions (trim this pot while watching the scope....) -- Ian > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Vincent Slyngstad > Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 11:59 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: TC08 documentation > > > I'm troubleshooting a TC08 DECtape controller, and one thing I'm > > missing is the module 'utilization' (placement) guide that exists > > in other documentation (e.g. TC01, TU56). > > It's in the FSTM: > http://www.pdp8online.com/bklatt/TechTips.html > http://www.pdp8online.com/bklatt/705.png > > Vince From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jun 8 16:32:38 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 14:32:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Classic mac fun (and some questions) In-Reply-To: <7926644e39f21d8ad873d0b6857ddeb0.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> from Jeff Walther at "Jun 8, 9 02:06:18 pm" Message-ID: <200906082132.n58LWc3t020492@floodgap.com> > > I could easily be wrong. It might be 4 4s instead of 4 1s. > > The Q700 has 4 MB soldered to the logic board and four 30-pin SIMM > sockets. D'oh, I was thinking of the IIci ... -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- there's a dance or two in the old dame yet. -- mehitabel ------------------- From evan at snarc.net Mon Jun 8 16:47:35 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 17:47:35 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IFJlbWVtYmVyaW5nIHRoZSB0cnVlKiBmaXJzdCBwb3J0YWJsZSA=?= =?UTF-8?B?Y29tcHV0ZXIg4oCiIFRoZSBSZWdpc3Rlcg==?= In-Reply-To: <4A2D74F1.2090104@sbcglobal.net> References: <4A2D74F1.2090104@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <4A2D86F7.6090604@snarc.net> DYSEAC was running in 1954. It was mounted in an Army truck. Not quite a Osborne, but it was the first time a modern, digital computer was specifically designed for mobility. From lists at databasics.us Mon Jun 8 18:32:47 2009 From: lists at databasics.us (Warren Wolfe) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 13:32:47 -1000 Subject: Stupid problems / was Re: Further 11/40 unibus questions... In-Reply-To: <4A2ABC8D.88204AC3@cs.ubc.ca> References: <4A2ABC8D.88204AC3@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4A2D9F9F.7030003@databasics.us> Brent Hilpert wrote: > > I suffered with the problem for ages, then finally clued in that my bench/lab > power supply - which of course contained a power transformer which of course > would generate a magnetic field - was sitting on top of the scope, just above > the CRT. Back in the old days, I got a call from a friend who was being driven nuts by his CP/M computer, which was a current, nice machine at the time. His 8" disks were randomly flaking out on him, and he had taken the whole system in to the store several times (a difficult task, back then) and when they set it up, there were no problems. He was going crazy, keeping multiple backups of each session, and still losing a lot of work. He had had numerous people over after business hours to try to find the problem, but had had no luck. With a techie there, there was never a problem. I went over to his place, and we watched for a while, with no effect. I wrote a program which wrote pseudo-random crap on the disk, and then randomly skipped around reading various tracks and sectors, checking the data, and then re-writing it, ringing the bell like a hunchback on crack if it found one of the sectors did not have the proper information or if a write failed. (Program: Quasi.com) We ran that sucker for hours, with no problems detected. I told him that my wife and I had plans for dinner that I didn't want to mess with, so when she called, that was it, I had to leave. It was getting near the time when she would call, and he was getting desperate. He appeared to be close to tears with frustration. "Look, I know there's no problem NOW, but, really, it fails all the time when I'm doing actual work. What's different about that?" Whiner. Finally, as things happen, my time was up -- my wife called.... And the terminal bell started going nuts at the same time. We both started, and I reached to pick up the phone.... which was sitting on top of his disk drive enclosure. The (Old Bell System) phone had a real bell, and the magnetic field generated when the phone rang was scrambling any disks in the drive at the time. During work, of course, he got lots of calls, hence had lots of problems. After work, nobody called. Sheesh. I moved his phone to the other side of the desk... problem solved. Warren From doug at stillhq.com Mon Jun 8 18:39:11 2009 From: doug at stillhq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 09:39:11 +1000 Subject: loading disk image on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <2645f9870906062113p609bd61cqc1e280296c0022a1@mail.gmail.com> References: <2645f9870906062113p609bd61cqc1e280296c0022a1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A2DA11F.6020504@stillhq.com> B M wrote - in relation to using vtserver to load an image onto a PDP-11/10: > "I was thinking of using vtserver to transfer the image over a serial > line, but the 'copy' program is not compatible with my PDP-11/05 (it > uses the 'mul' and 'div' instructions which is not available on my > PDP-11/10)." > > Is this the same reason why I cant get vtserver to work with my PDP-11/04 and PDP-11/34? Has anybody else had success with this? Has anybody considered a guaranteel clean version of vtserver that 'just ran' on all PDP-11 hardware (or is that a pipedream)? Doug From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Jun 8 19:20:58 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 17:20:58 -0700 Subject: anyone read dealers of lightning? In-Reply-To: <001c01c9e7dd$3c680b10$6400a8c0@acerd3c08b49af> References: <4A274C2E.6030705@verizon.net><4A275CE6.9020103@atarimuseum.com> <4A27602D.4090504@snarc.net> <4A294FFF.8070301@arachelian.com> <001c01c9e7dd$3c680b10$6400a8c0@acerd3c08b49af> Message-ID: > From: CSquared > Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 7:03 PM > I've been following all the comments about Soul with considerable interest. > Am I the only one who found it a bit sad? I finally got around to reading > it a couple of years ago, and it seemed to me to describe all too accurately > what strikes me as the employee abuse that characterized way too much of the > engineering development process during that era. "during that era"? I saw the same kinds of things 20 years later, and don't think they've stopped since then. It's something you sign up for, in expectation of appropriate reward. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jun 8 19:39:36 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:39:36 -0400 Subject: loading disk image on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <4A2DA11F.6020504@stillhq.com> References: <2645f9870906062113p609bd61cqc1e280296c0022a1@mail.gmail.com> <4A2DA11F.6020504@stillhq.com> Message-ID: <2E8F69A2-B0C6-4018-B13B-F9211A5A3947@neurotica.com> On Jun 8, 2009, at 7:39 PM, Doug Jackson wrote: >> "I was thinking of using vtserver to transfer the image over a serial >> line, but the 'copy' program is not compatible with my PDP-11/05 (it >> uses the 'mul' and 'div' instructions which is not available on my >> PDP-11/10)." >> > Is this the same reason why I cant get vtserver to work with my > PDP-11/04 and PDP-11/34? Has anybody else had success with this? I've not used it on either of those models, but if memory serves, the 11/34 has mul/div instructions, but the 11/04 does not. > Has anybody considered a guaranteel clean version of vtserver that > 'just ran' on all PDP-11 hardware (or is that a pipedream)? We really need some enterprising person to spend a weekend hacking on vtserver. Extend the file size limitations, support more target processors, etc. I'd love to do it myself, but as with everyone else, no time. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Jun 8 20:34:40 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 21:34:40 -0400 Subject: loading disk image on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <4A2DA11F.6020504@stillhq.com> References: <2645f9870906062113p609bd61cqc1e280296c0022a1@mail.gmail.com> <4A2DA11F.6020504@stillhq.com> Message-ID: <200906082134.41111.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 08 June 2009, Doug Jackson wrote: > B M wrote - in relation to using vtserver to load an image onto a > > PDP-11/10: > > "I was thinking of using vtserver to transfer the image over a > > serial line, but the 'copy' program is not compatible with my > > PDP-11/05 (it uses the 'mul' and 'div' instructions which is not > > available on my PDP-11/10)." > > Is this the same reason why I cant get vtserver to work with my > PDP-11/04 and PDP-11/34? Has anybody else had success with this? Well, IIRC, vtserver requires an MMU and >32kW of ram, though I don't remember how much exactly. So, that pretty much excludes anything less than an 11/23, or some higher numbered models without an MMU or enough memory installed. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From lynchaj at yahoo.com Mon Jun 8 20:51:49 2009 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 21:51:49 -0400 Subject: S-100 home brew project Message-ID: Hi! Is anyone interested in an S-100 home brew project? I am thinking build a system using the principles in the Libes and Bursky books. A group project where everyone builds the boards on prototyping boards as we go. For example, an 8080A or Z80 CPU board, a SRAM/ROM board, a serial board, etc. Keep the boards relatively simple and low chip count -- nothing exotic. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Mon Jun 8 21:25:17 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 19:25:17 -0700 Subject: loading disk image on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <2E8F69A2-B0C6-4018-B13B-F9211A5A3947@neurotica.com> References: <2645f9870906062113p609bd61cqc1e280296c0022a1@mail.gmail.com> <4A2DA11F.6020504@stillhq.com> <2E8F69A2-B0C6-4018-B13B-F9211A5A3947@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4A2DC80D.1070906@mail.msu.edu> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jun 8, 2009, at 7:39 PM, Doug Jackson wrote: >>> "I was thinking of using vtserver to transfer the image over a serial >>> line, but the 'copy' program is not compatible with my PDP-11/05 (it >>> uses the 'mul' and 'div' instructions which is not available on my >>> PDP-11/10)." >>> >> Is this the same reason why I cant get vtserver to work with my >> PDP-11/04 and PDP-11/34? Has anybody else had success with this? > > I've not used it on either of those models, but if memory serves, > the 11/34 has mul/div instructions, but the 11/04 does not. > >> Has anybody considered a guaranteel clean version of vtserver that >> 'just ran' on all PDP-11 hardware (or is that a pipedream)? > > We really need some enterprising person to spend a weekend hacking > on vtserver. Extend the file size limitations, support more target > processors, etc. I'd love to do it myself, but as with everyone else, > no time. Well, I've been working (slowly, in my _spare_ spare time) on a Windows version of VTServer (I know there is one out there, but it never worked for me). I'm basically porting the original C code over to C# and doing some severe cleanup/refactoring/etc. Getting rid of the 32mb limit was one goal, I wasn't aware of the processor limitation, but I think that would be worthwhile too. (And it should run fine on any system that can run Mono, so I'm not leaving you Unix guys out, honest...) One of these days I'll finish it... > > -Dave > From lists at databasics.us Mon Jun 8 21:34:30 2009 From: lists at databasics.us (Warren Wolfe) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 16:34:30 -1000 Subject: IBM 029 progress In-Reply-To: <88A1FADA-91E0-4205-942E-D03FC5322C59@microspot.co.uk> References: <88A1FADA-91E0-4205-942E-D03FC5322C59@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <4A2DCA36.2050104@databasics.us> Roger Holmes wrote: > (incidentally, how come MF does not mean Mega Farad) Since the largest capacitor I have ever heard of is 100 Farads, it really doesn't seem likely that there will be any confusion. Warren From drb at msu.edu Mon Jun 8 21:43:32 2009 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 22:43:32 -0400 Subject: loading disk image on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: (Your message of Tue, 09 Jun 2009 09:39:11 +1000.) <4A2DA11F.6020504@stillhq.com> References: <4A2DA11F.6020504@stillhq.com> <2645f9870906062113p609bd61cqc1e280296c0022a1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200906090243.n592hWmp006043@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > "I was thinking of using vtserver to transfer the image over a serial > line, but the 'copy' program is not compatible with my PDP-11/05 (it > uses the 'mul' and 'div' instructions which is not available on my > PDP-11/10)." I haven't exhaustively searched for such instructions, but a sample multiplication found in the C source didn't turn into a mul instruction. You sure this is the cause? De From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jun 8 22:26:40 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:26:40 -0700 Subject: Stuff in Portland, Oregon Message-ID: Is anyone interested in stuff located in the vicinity of Portland, Oregon? I'm not sure what all it would included. It might even depend on the persons interests. The stuff needs to be out of storage by this weekend, a lot has already been moved into the garage of our new house, and the rest will hopefully be moved between now and Sunday. Some free, some not so free. I'm looking to downsize and tighten the focus my collection since realistically I don't mess with the stuff much any more. Some items such as spares for my PDP-11's I'm not really interested in getting rid of. Though for the right price I could be talked out of most things. My focus has shifted primarily to DEC PDP-11, VAX, and Alpha as well as C-64. Though I'm hoping to get an Apple ][ of some sort up and running as well as a couple others now that I have the space. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From nico at farumdata.dk Mon Jun 8 22:27:53 2009 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 05:27:53 +0200 Subject: IBM 029 progress References: <88A1FADA-91E0-4205-942E-D03FC5322C59@microspot.co.uk> <4A2DCA36.2050104@databasics.us> Message-ID: <613C55B1C8DC4BCE96C746F3440AF661@udvikling> > Roger Holmes wrote: >> (incidentally, how come MF does not mean Mega Farad) > > Since the largest capacitor I have ever heard of is 100 Farads, it > really doesn't seem likely that there will be any confusion. > > I wonder how many Farads a car battery helds Nico From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Jun 8 22:37:44 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:37:44 -0700 Subject: Stuff in Portland, Oregon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I live in Seattle and own a truck. :-) I'm primarily interested in minicomputers, and not necessarily just 'mainstream' ones - for instance, I recently acquired a Nuclear Data mini. Also, I'm usually interested in peripherals, as it seems one never has enough. For instance, I thought I'd made a deal to pick up a couple of RK05s, but it fell through. So what's outside the PDP-11/VAX/Alpha realm? I'm interested. BTW, I'm responding as an individual, not necessarily on behalf of my company. Thanks -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy [healyzh at aracnet.com] Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 8:26 PM To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org Subject: Stuff in Portland, Oregon Is anyone interested in stuff located in the vicinity of Portland, Oregon? I'm not sure what all it would included. It might even depend on the persons interests. The stuff needs to be out of storage by this weekend, a lot has already been moved into the garage of our new house, and the rest will hopefully be moved between now and Sunday. Some free, some not so free. I'm looking to downsize and tighten the focus my collection since realistically I don't mess with the stuff much any more. Some items such as spares for my PDP-11's I'm not really interested in getting rid of. Though for the right price I could be talked out of most things. My focus has shifted primarily to DEC PDP-11, VAX, and Alpha as well as C-64. Though I'm hoping to get an Apple ][ of some sort up and running as well as a couple others now that I have the space. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 23:04:50 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 00:04:50 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Remembering_the_true=2A_first_portable_computer_?= =?windows-1252?Q?=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <4A2D74F1.2090104@sbcglobal.net> References: <4A2D74F1.2090104@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: > ? ? ? ?And on the last page, they give credit to CHM for letting them "drool > over the machinery": > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/05/tob_minuteman_1/ One has to take everything about missile tech history as if it has a huge red flag on it. The guidance computer from the article is a real oddball, in that it is one of the missile subsystems that somehow managed to get out into the public. Most never did, nor any documentation, and what little is still around is perilously close to being lost. Was there a missile guidance computer before the Minuteman 1 machines? Maybe. Maybe not. Don't take anything as gospel. The same is generally true for submarine tech, and of course crypto tech. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 23:07:34 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 00:07:34 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Remembering_the_true=2A_first_portable_computer_?= =?windows-1252?Q?=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <4A2D86F7.6090604@snarc.net> References: <4A2D74F1.2090104@sbcglobal.net> <4A2D86F7.6090604@snarc.net> Message-ID: > DYSEAC was running in 1954. ?It was mounted in an Army truck. ?Not quite a > Osborne, but it was the first time a modern, digital computer was > specifically designed for mobility. Do not be surprised if the crypto guys had something before that. But they ain't talking... -- Will From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 23:52:35 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 00:52:35 -0400 Subject: IBM 029 progress In-Reply-To: <4A2DCA36.2050104@databasics.us> References: <88A1FADA-91E0-4205-942E-D03FC5322C59@microspot.co.uk> <4A2DCA36.2050104@databasics.us> Message-ID: <4A2DEA93.8070205@gmail.com> Warren Wolfe wrote: > Roger Holmes wrote: >> (incidentally, how come MF does not mean Mega Farad) > > Since the largest capacitor I have ever heard of is 100 Farads, it > really doesn't seem likely that there will be any confusion. You could probably beat 100F by building into a 55gal drum and designing carefully. Peace... Sridhar From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jun 8 23:53:30 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 21:53:30 -0700 Subject: Stuff in Portland, Oregon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The only mini's I have left are DEC. I had a DG core plane, but most have gotten rid of it at some point. A lot of it went to Jim Willing when I got married (I don't even think I want to know what happened to it). There is a -8/e and a -8/f, but they'd take real money to get me to part with them. I know there is a RAM board (I think 128k) for the -8/a that came out of a DEC warehouse when Compaq was selling the contents of the warehouses off, I think the rest of the -8 parts are for the e and f. There is some 8-bit stuff. Some old Mac's, and a bunch of PC stuff. I'm honestly not sure what all there is that I don't want. I'm pretty sure there are some DEC spares, but that would take some time to figure out. Zane At 8:37 PM -0700 6/8/09, Ian King wrote: >I live in Seattle and own a truck. :-) I'm primarily interested in >minicomputers, and not necessarily just 'mainstream' ones - for >instance, I recently acquired a Nuclear Data mini. Also, I'm >usually interested in peripherals, as it seems one never has enough. >For instance, I thought I'd made a deal to pick up a couple of >RK05s, but it fell through. > >So what's outside the PDP-11/VAX/Alpha realm? I'm interested. BTW, >I'm responding as an individual, not necessarily on behalf of my >company. Thanks -- Ian >________________________________________ >From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] >On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy [healyzh at aracnet.com] >Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 8:26 PM >To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org >Subject: Stuff in Portland, Oregon > >Is anyone interested in stuff located in the vicinity of Portland, >Oregon? I'm not sure what all it would included. It might even >depend on the persons interests. > >The stuff needs to be out of storage by this weekend, a lot has >already been moved into the garage of our new house, and the rest >will hopefully be moved between now and Sunday. Some free, some not >so free. I'm looking to downsize and tighten the focus my collection >since realistically I don't mess with the stuff much any more. Some >items such as spares for my PDP-11's I'm not really interested in >getting rid of. Though for the right price I could be talked out of >most things. > >My focus has shifted primarily to DEC PDP-11, VAX, and Alpha as well >as C-64. Though I'm hoping to get an Apple ][ of some sort up and >running as well as a couple others now that I have the space. > >Zane > > >-- >| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | >| healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | >| MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | >+----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | >| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Tue Jun 9 00:43:42 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 22:43:42 -0700 Subject: P-System (was Re: PDP 11/73 on the Internet) In-Reply-To: <4A2D4949.6080509@gmail.com> References: <4A2D4949.6080509@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A2DF68E.7030801@mail.msu.edu> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: >>> I know for a fact that IBM offered p-System for the PC, because I >>> have a copy of *IBM's* p-System and all its manuals (binder-in-box) >>> for the PC. The binders are blue. The PC-DOS ones are beige/tan, >>> if my memory serves me. >> >> >> One of them is pink, I forget if that's PC-DOS or BASIC, but probably >> the latter. > > BASIC is definitely pink. Hmm. I have DOS 1.1 and it's pink; the manual for BASIC is Dark Green-ish... > > Peace... Sridhar > > From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Jun 9 00:46:25 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 22:46:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: bizarre capacitance Message-ID: Anyone here use an Extech multimeter? This thing seems to get confused with certain capacitors. In particular, a new 10uF electrolytic register randomly from 1 to 8 nF whereas a 1-year-old 1uF electrolytic registers fine. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From james at machineroom.info Mon Jun 8 14:49:38 2009 From: james at machineroom.info (James Wilson) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 20:49:38 +0100 Subject: P-System (was Re: PDP 11/73 on the Internet) In-Reply-To: <4A2C036F.1000108@bitsavers.org> References: <4A2AC32C.1070103@machineroom.info> <4A2C036F.1000108@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4A2D6B52.4030608@machineroom.info> Al Kossow wrote: > James Wilson wrote: > >> UCSD P-system? >> >> Now theres a name I haven't seen in a while.... 10 or so years ago I >> worked for a company in Bristol (UK) who supposedly had the rights to >> the P-System. > > Do you know anyone who still has the code from them? > > There is an active P-System Yahoo group, and they have been > looking for it. > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/UCSDPascal/ > > Sadly not. AFAIK none of the original staff are still with the company, now called "Cabot communications" (cabot.co.uk). A good contact, if you can find him, would be Gordon Wilkie who used to be the technical manager and knew the P-System inside out. (A quick bit of hunting shows him as a freelance - http://www.bristolitservices.co.uk/index.html). Good luck! James From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Jun 8 18:49:07 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 19:49:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DTC-510B controller In-Reply-To: <525F300ED06D4D86862557450CD75356@HPRoberto> References: <525F300ED06D4D86862557450CD75356@HPRoberto> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Jun 2009, Roberto Bazzano wrote: > Hello. > I'm trying to replace a Xebec S1410A SASI controller with a Data Technology > Corp. DTC-510B or DTC-510A, for a old homebrew computer > (http://www.z80ne.com) > > The problem is that, even if the controllers should be "almost" compatible, > the DTC-510A/B doesn't work (while the Xebec works fine). > I'm not able to find any manual about it, only some dipswitch settings. The S1410 required you to either tell it the drive size at startup or burn a custom EPROM. Later units saved this information on a reserved track and read it at controller reset. Is it possible the DTC and Xebec differ in this important area? -- From ohh at panix.com Tue Jun 9 00:25:45 2009 From: ohh at panix.com (O. Sharp) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 01:25:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Transistor Substitution Message-ID: Okay: I admit it, I am sometimes pig-ignorant about basic hardware questions. :/ I have a couple of DEC machines which I need to replace a few components on, and also stock up spares of others. With the transistors and diodes, however, I often can't find a direct replacement - and don't know how to figure out what a modern substitute is. For a 2N3009, for example, I can find basic information and a datasheet online easily enough - but as for choosing a functional, available substitute for it, I'm honestly not even sure where to begin. Is there a basic resource for determining modern equivalents for older transistors and diodes? Can someone helpfully provide me with a clue here? :) Thanks! -O.- From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 9 01:09:06 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 23:09:06 -0700 Subject: IBM 029 progress In-Reply-To: <613C55B1C8DC4BCE96C746F3440AF661@udvikling> References: <88A1FADA-91E0-4205-942E-D03FC5322C59@microspot.co.uk> <4A2DCA36.2050104@databasics.us> <613C55B1C8DC4BCE96C746F3440AF661@udvikling> Message-ID: <4A2DFC82.60800@brouhaha.com> Nico de Jong wrote: > I wonder how many Farads a car battery helds Nico If you empty it out and fill it with capacitors, it will hold a few megafarads at 2 volts. From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Tue Jun 9 01:10:00 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 23:10:00 -0700 Subject: Further 11/40 unibus questions... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A2DFCB8.7030207@mail.msu.edu> Tony Duell wrote: >>> Then I'd look at all the Unibus signals both with the terminator out >>> (they will still be terminated by the resistors at at the CPU end -- IIRC >>> on an 11/40 these are on the Unibus jumper between the CPU and first >>> expansion backplane) and with it fitted. I would guess something is >>> changing state, let's find out what. >>> >>> >> I will start looking at this tonight (assuming I have the time tonight >> :)). Thanks. >> > > OK, let us know how you get on :-) > > -tony > Ok, finally stopped being distracted by other shiny objects for long enough to do some more fiddling with the 11/40. And of course, instead of hooking up the logic analyzer, I decided to play around with the Console SLU/LTC board. Because I evidently don't follow suggestions well. But this has a good ending, sort of. Maybe. So the SLU was unresponsive no matter what I did. Tried it at 9600 baud, no go. Dialed it down to 300, no dice. Checked the continuity of the dip switches, of which there are approximately 500. No problems there. Checked, and double-checked the wiring on the serial cable I built. No go. Stole the cable from my 8/e... still no good. So I moved it out of the 9th slot on the processor backplane and into the first slot on Unibus backplane. (And put a grant card in the 9th slot...) And hey, it works. Toggled in a short "echo" program and what I type on the terminal keyboard is echoed back, at a blistering 300 baud. So... clearly there's something wrong with the SPC slot on the processor backplane. A couple more questions: 1) Is the NPG grant on the unibus slot on the processor backplane (slot 9) supposed to be connected to the NPG grants on the Unibus expansion? That is -- right now if I set my DMM to continuity mode and put one probe on CA1 on the first slot of the unibus expansion, and the other on CB1 on the last slot of the unibus expansion, since all NPG grant jumpers are in place, the DMM shows the circuit as closed. This is as I'd expect. However, if I move the probe from CA1 on the first slot of the expansion to CA1 on slot 9 of the processor backplane, the circuit is then open. I'm guessing this is not correct. (There is currently an NPG jumper installed on slot 9.) 2) Where is the +15V to the processor backplane supposed to be connected? (I suspect this may be the reason the SLU won't function in slot 9...). Right now it's plugged into pin CV1 on slot 9 (if I'm reading the Unibus pin chart right :)) but the docs I have found say this should be ACLO_L... Thanks as always... Josh From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 01:11:02 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 02:11:02 -0400 Subject: P-System (was Re: PDP 11/73 on the Internet) In-Reply-To: <4A2DF68E.7030801@mail.msu.edu> References: <4A2D4949.6080509@gmail.com> <4A2DF68E.7030801@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4A2DFCF6.60906@gmail.com> Josh Dersch wrote: > > > Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> Tony Duell wrote: >>>> I know for a fact that IBM offered p-System for the PC, because I >>>> have a copy of *IBM's* p-System and all its manuals (binder-in-box) >>>> for the PC. The binders are blue. The PC-DOS ones are beige/tan, >>>> if my memory serves me. >>> >>> >>> One of them is pink, I forget if that's PC-DOS or BASIC, but probably >>> the latter. >> >> BASIC is definitely pink. > > Hmm. I have DOS 1.1 and it's pink; the manual for BASIC is Dark > Green-ish... I have a DOS in tan. I have a BASIC in pink, and a BASIC in dark brown. I suspect age may have a part to play. Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 9 01:34:11 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 02:34:11 -0400 Subject: P-System (was Re: PDP 11/73 on the Internet) In-Reply-To: <4A2DFCF6.60906@gmail.com> References: <4A2D4949.6080509@gmail.com> <4A2DF68E.7030801@mail.msu.edu> <4A2DFCF6.60906@gmail.com> Message-ID: <47084091-37DF-4527-8CD2-B6E3A1AF56FA@neurotica.com> On Jun 9, 2009, at 2:11 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>>>> I know for a fact that IBM offered p-System for the PC, because >>>>> I have a copy of *IBM's* p-System and all its manuals (binder- >>>>> in-box) for the PC. The binders are blue. The PC-DOS ones >>>>> are beige/tan, if my memory serves me. >>>> >>>> One of them is pink, I forget if that's PC-DOS or BASIC, but >>>> probably the latter. >>> >>> BASIC is definitely pink. >> Hmm. I have DOS 1.1 and it's pink; the manual for BASIC is Dark >> Green-ish... > > I have a DOS in tan. I have a BASIC in pink, and a BASIC in dark > brown. > > I suspect age may have a part to play. Yours, or the manuals'? ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Jun 9 01:51:08 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 08 Jun 2009 23:51:08 -0700 Subject: IBM 029 progress References: <88A1FADA-91E0-4205-942E-D03FC5322C59@microspot.co.uk> <4A2DCA36.2050104@databasics.us> <613C55B1C8DC4BCE96C746F3440AF661@udvikling> Message-ID: <4A2E065B.6ED92383@cs.ubc.ca> Nico de Jong wrote: > > > Roger Holmes wrote: > >> (incidentally, how come MF does not mean Mega Farad) > > > > Since the largest capacitor I have ever heard of is 100 Farads, it > > really doesn't seem likely that there will be any confusion. > > > I wonder how many Farads a car battery helds Well, here's a rough off-the-cuff comparison of the two as energy storage devices: - If a 12V 40Ah battery supplies 40A for one hour into a load, then the load resistance is 12V/40A = 0.3 Ohms. - To achieve an RC time constant of 1 hour with 0.3 ohm R requires C of: 1h * 60m/h * 60s/m / 0.3 Ohms = 12000 Farads. (There is a lot to criticise in this comparison, notably that the RC time constant involves a significant drop in the voltage and hence current. A better comparison would utilise energy equations but then I'd have to look them up.) With that said, a battery is not a capacitor. They have a gross similarity as electrical energy storage devices but the electrochemical reactions of the battery result in very different electrical characteristics and response than does the 'pure' electrostatic nature of a capacitor. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 9 02:06:57 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 00:06:57 -0700 Subject: IBM 029 progress In-Reply-To: <4A2E065B.6ED92383@cs.ubc.ca> References: <88A1FADA-91E0-4205-942E-D03FC5322C59@microspot.co.uk>, <4A2E065B.6ED92383@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4A2DA7A1.3668.274E1F23@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Jun 2009 at 23:51, Brent Hilpert wrote: > With that said, a battery is not a capacitor. They have a gross > similarity as electrical energy storage devices but the > electrochemical reactions of the battery result in very different > electrical characteristics and response than does the 'pure' > electrostatic nature of a capacitor. Have you been following the mystery of eeStor? They claim a capacitor with a better energy density than any secondary cell. They seem to be using a high voltage (3Kv) on some sort of barium titanate setup. It it's real, it'll be Very BIg News, but many think it's unadulterated snake oil. --Chuck From mike at brickfieldspark.org Tue Jun 9 03:05:39 2009 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 09:05:39 +0100 Subject: [personal] Transistor Substitution References: Message-ID: <000a01c9e8d9$14b36c20$961ca8c0@mss.local> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "O. Sharp" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 6:25 AM > Subject: [personal] Transistor Substitution > I have a couple of DEC machines which I need to replace a few components > on, and also stock up spares of others. With the transistors and diodes, > however, I often can't find a direct replacement - and don't know how to > figure out what a modern substitute is. > > For a 2N3009, for example, I can find basic information and a datasheet > online easily enough - but as for choosing a functional, available > substitute for it, I'm honestly not even sure where to begin. Given the age of most DEC equipment there will be lots of transistors that will do the job. A quick Google with 2N3009 will come up with lots of info, Eg this site http://qrp.kd4ab.org/1997/971031/0071.html lists 2N3009 as an eqivalent to 2N2222 along with tons of others, any/most of which could be suitable. within reason a switching application would be less critical about spec changes than a precision analog application. Look for the basic overall ratings to be similar, voltage, current, power dissipation and gain. Package type is not so important until you get to the larger power types, but watch for pinouts there are multiple variants of TO92, TO18 and the rest, you might have to move legs around for an equivalent. You could go to the extent os setting up a small test rig & scope, get the signal conditions for a 2N3009 and then test some others. > > Is there a basic resource for determining modern equivalents for older > transistors and diodes? Can someone helpfully provide me with a clue here? > :) > > Thanks! > Best regards, Mike Hatch Web - www.soemtron.org PDP-7 - www.soemtron.org/pdp7.html Email - mike at soemtron.org Looking for a PDP-7 (some hope!) and an ASR33 From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Jun 9 03:50:44 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 09:50:44 +0100 Subject: IBM 029 progress In-Reply-To: <4A2DEA93.8070205@gmail.com> References: <88A1FADA-91E0-4205-942E-D03FC5322C59@microspot.co.uk> <4A2DCA36.2050104@databasics.us> <4A2DEA93.8070205@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1244537444.4414.0.camel@elric> On Tue, 2009-06-09 at 00:52 -0400, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Warren Wolfe wrote: > > Roger Holmes wrote: > >> (incidentally, how come MF does not mean Mega Farad) > > > > Since the largest capacitor I have ever heard of is 100 Farads, it > > really doesn't seem likely that there will be any confusion. > > You could probably beat 100F by building into a 55gal drum and designing > carefully. Not that carefully. a 100F 2.7V capacitor is about the size of your thumb. Gordon From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Jun 9 05:22:47 2009 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 06:22:47 -0400 Subject: loading disk image on PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <2E8F69A2-B0C6-4018-B13B-F9211A5A3947@neurotica.com> References: <2645f9870906062113p609bd61cqc1e280296c0022a1@mail.gmail.com> <4A2DA11F.6020504@stillhq.com> <2E8F69A2-B0C6-4018-B13B-F9211A5A3947@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <15062.1244542967@mini> Dave McGuire wrote: >> Is this the same reason why I cant get vtserver to work with my >> PDP-11/04 and PDP-11/34? Has anybody else had success with this? I've used it on an 11/34. It works fine. It won't work on an 11/44 due to console issues (the console is not a clear channel). I have not tried it on anything else. Later this summer I plan to have an 11/34 with RK05's and a SCSI card and I'd be happy to load up RK05's for anyone; but I'd like to borrow/buy/trade-for an alignment disk first, just to be careful. -brad From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 07:58:36 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 08:58:36 -0400 Subject: IBM 029 progress In-Reply-To: <1244537444.4414.0.camel@elric> References: <88A1FADA-91E0-4205-942E-D03FC5322C59@microspot.co.uk> <4A2DCA36.2050104@databasics.us> <4A2DEA93.8070205@gmail.com> <1244537444.4414.0.camel@elric> Message-ID: <4A2E5C7C.8090701@gmail.com> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > On Tue, 2009-06-09 at 00:52 -0400, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> Warren Wolfe wrote: >>> Roger Holmes wrote: >>>> (incidentally, how come MF does not mean Mega Farad) >>> Since the largest capacitor I have ever heard of is 100 Farads, it >>> really doesn't seem likely that there will be any confusion. >> You could probably beat 100F by building into a 55gal drum and designing >> carefully. > > Not that carefully. a 100F 2.7V capacitor is about the size of your > thumb. I was thinking of a waay higher voltage than that. Peace... Sridhar From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jun 9 08:39:56 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 06:39:56 -0700 Subject: Stupid problems / was Re: Further 11/40 unibus questions... In-Reply-To: <4A2D9F9F.7030003@databasics.us> References: <4A2ABC8D.88204AC3@cs.ubc.ca> <4A2D9F9F.7030003@databasics.us> Message-ID: > From: lists at databasics.us > > Brent Hilpert wrote: >> >> I suffered with the problem for ages, then finally clued in that my bench/lab >> power supply - which of course contained a power transformer which of course >> would generate a magnetic field - was sitting on top of the scope, just above >> the CRT. > > > Back in the old days, I got a call from a friend who was being driven > nuts by his CP/M computer, which was a current, nice machine at the > time. His 8" disks were randomly flaking out on him, and he had taken > the whole system in to the store several times (a difficult task, back > then) and when they set it up, there were no problems. He was going > crazy, keeping multiple backups of each session, and still losing a lot > of work. He had had numerous people over after business hours to try to > find the problem, but had had no luck. With a techie there, there was > never a problem. > > I went over to his place, and we watched for a while, with no effect. I > wrote a program which wrote pseudo-random crap on the disk, and then > randomly skipped around reading various tracks and sectors, checking the > data, and then re-writing it, ringing the bell like a hunchback on crack > if it found one of the sectors did not have the proper information or if > a write failed. (Program: Quasi.com) > > We ran that sucker for hours, with no problems detected. I told him > that my wife and I had plans for dinner that I didn't want to mess with, > so when she called, that was it, I had to leave. It was getting near > the time when she would call, and he was getting desperate. He appeared > to be close to tears with frustration. "Look, I know there's no problem > NOW, but, really, it fails all the time when I'm doing actual work. > What's different about that?" Whiner. > > Finally, as things happen, my time was up -- my wife called.... And the > terminal bell started going nuts at the same time. We both started, and > I reached to pick up the phone.... which was sitting on top of his disk > drive enclosure. The (Old Bell System) phone had a real bell, and the > magnetic field generated when the phone rang was scrambling any disks in > the drive at the time. During work, of course, he got lots of calls, > hence had lots of problems. After work, nobody called. Sheesh. I > moved his phone to the other side of the desk... problem solved. > > Warren > Hi I'd seen similar problems from setting the video monitor on top of the PC. The color screens had the de-guassing coil that came on when turned on. It would get the disk to. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that?s right for you. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/choosepc/?ocid=ftp_val_wl_290 From mross666 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 9 08:53:20 2009 From: mross666 at hotmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 13:53:20 +0000 Subject: Remembering the true* first portable computer ? The Register In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Why would the crypto guys want anything portable way back then? Common sense says it's easier to send the data to the computer than the computer to the data! Mike http://www.corestore.org _________________________________________________________________ Lauren found her dream laptop. Find the PC that?s right for you. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/choosepc/?ocid=ftp_val_wl_290 From hadsell at blueskystudios.com Tue Jun 9 09:16:15 2009 From: hadsell at blueskystudios.com (Richard Hadsell) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 10:16:15 -0400 Subject: bizarre capacitance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A2E6EAF.9080804@blueskystudios.com> David Griffith wrote: > > Anyone here use an Extech multimeter? This thing seems to get > confused with certain capacitors. In particular, a new 10uF > electrolytic register randomly from 1 to 8 nF whereas a 1-year-old 1uF > electrolytic registers fine. > Aren't electrolytics polarized? I think you would get a bad number if you have reversed the polarity. Try connecting the opposite test leads. -- Dick Hadsell 203-992-6320 Fax: 203-992-6001 Reply-to: hadsell at blueskystudios.com Blue Sky Studios http://www.blueskystudios.com 1 American Lane, Greenwich, CT 06831-2560 From dgahling at hotmail.com Tue Jun 9 09:30:31 2009 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 10:30:31 -0400 Subject: Stuff in Portland, Oregon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: your email address bounced. you wouldn't happen to have a microvax 2 in there would ya? Dan. > Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:26:40 -0700 > To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org > From: healyzh at aracnet.com > Subject: Stuff in Portland, Oregon > > Is anyone interested in stuff located in the vicinity of Portland, > Oregon? I'm not sure what all it would included. It might even > depend on the persons interests. > > The stuff needs to be out of storage by this weekend, a lot has > already been moved into the garage of our new house, and the rest > will hopefully be moved between now and Sunday. Some free, some not > so free. I'm looking to downsize and tighten the focus my collection > since realistically I don't mess with the stuff much any more. Some > items such as spares for my PDP-11's I'm not really interested in > getting rid of. Though for the right price I could be talked out of > most things. > > My focus has shifted primarily to DEC PDP-11, VAX, and Alpha as well > as C-64. Though I'm hoping to get an Apple ][ of some sort up and > running as well as a couple others now that I have the space. > > Zane > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | _________________________________________________________________ Attention all humans. We are your photos. Free us. http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9666046 From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jun 9 09:45:41 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 07:45:41 -0700 Subject: Stuff in Portland, Oregon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Strange, it shouldn't have bounced. The only time it should do that is when my mailbox fills up (typically people sending to many photo's). I have spare MicroVAX II board sets (not sure how many), but no spare chassis's. Except for my VAXstation II/RC, all the chassis's are classified as spares for the PDP-11's or II/RC. Something I should have mentioned is that I might be interested in trading computer gear for the right Medium or Large Format photography equipment. Zane At 10:30 AM -0400 6/9/09, Dan Gahlinger wrote: >your email address bounced. >you wouldn't happen to have a microvax 2 in there would ya? > >Dan. > >> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:26:40 -0700 >> To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org >> From: healyzh at aracnet.com >> Subject: Stuff in Portland, Oregon >> >> Is anyone interested in stuff located in the vicinity of Portland, >> Oregon? I'm not sure what all it would included. It might even >> depend on the persons interests. >> >> The stuff needs to be out of storage by this weekend, a lot has >> already been moved into the garage of our new house, and the rest >> will hopefully be moved between now and Sunday. Some free, some not >> so free. I'm looking to downsize and tighten the focus my collection >> since realistically I don't mess with the stuff much any more. Some >> items such as spares for my PDP-11's I'm not really interested in >> getting rid of. Though for the right price I could be talked out of >> most things. >> >> My focus has shifted primarily to DEC PDP-11, VAX, and Alpha as well >> as C-64. Though I'm hoping to get an Apple ][ of some sort up and >> running as well as a couple others now that I have the space. >> >> Zane >> >> >> -- >> | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | >> | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | >> | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | >> +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ >> | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | >> | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | >> | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > >_________________________________________________________________ >Attention all humans. We are your photos. Free us. >http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9666046 -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jws at jwsss.com Tue Jun 9 03:04:46 2009 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 01:04:46 -0700 Subject: Thanks to Henk G for Cipher 100X parts Message-ID: <4A2E179E.5000401@jwsss.com> Henk has sent a care package from the Netherlands to LA, Ca with the most useful 10 kilo's of parts from a 100X he was scrapping out. Just wanted to relay thanks to him for a really long distance scrounge via the group. I just reorganized the stash with one of the most serviceable of my drives, so it will be interesting to compare the parts with my drive revision when they get here. I prioritized the selection to take the parts with the most likely to degrade first, then the motion control and read/write boards, then a variety of other sensors and power supply boards. The entire drive would have been prohibitive to ship. Anyone else had to distill a large unit and what were the priorities or choices made to scrounge? Did they pay off yet (have you ever raided your stash and actually fixed one of your units or someone else's?) Jim From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Tue Jun 9 04:43:15 2009 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 11:43:15 +0200 Subject: Transistor Substitution In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A2E2EB3.70106@iais.fraunhofer.de> O. Sharp schrieb: > Okay: I admit it, I am sometimes pig-ignorant about basic hardware > questions. :/ > > I have a couple of DEC machines which I need to replace a few components > on, and also stock up spares of others. With the transistors and diodes, > however, I often can't find a direct replacement - and don't know how to > figure out what a modern substitute is. > > For a 2N3009, for example, I can find basic information and a datasheet > online easily enough - but as for choosing a functional, available > substitute for it, I'm honestly not even sure where to begin. > > Is there a basic resource for determining modern equivalents for older > transistors and diodes? Can someone helpfully provide me with a clue > here? :) There exist books which provide cross references replacement types for obsolete components. Often manufacturers also provide lists in the Web which recommend their own modern components for such old transistors. Google is your friend there. The point, however, is that one should carefully look at the circuit itself to find out what the transistor is actually used for. Take a basic amplifier, for instance (two resistors at the base, and one each at the collector and emitter, resp., AC-coupled). This circuit is built around certain transistor characteristics; IIRC, the AoE book describes the formulas. Unless you also replace the passive components around it, you should have a replacement with the same hfe21, Ube, Ic, Ib, and maybe even fT, etc. But often, this whole work is not required at all. The 2N3009 is not a "high speed switching NPN" with respect to modern devices - it may have been 30 years ago, and the other parameters do not really suggest it is something really uncommon. For some HF transistors, there may be a problem (cf. amplifiers!), but unlikely here. In digital DEC machines, such a beast is possibly just used for driving display bulbs, in the power supply, or converting voltage levels - I don't know the circuit you refer to. In such a case, I have no problems to take some modern standard NPN with almost the same characteristics (Ic, Uce, P, hfe) which I find in my semiconductor box. -- Holger From fti1983 at xmission.com Tue Jun 9 11:59:01 2009 From: fti1983 at xmission.com (Steve Moulding) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 10:59:01 -0600 Subject: Transistor Substitution References: <4A2E2EB3.70106@iais.fraunhofer.de> Message-ID: Holger Veit wrote: > O. Sharp schrieb: >> Okay: I admit it, I am sometimes pig-ignorant about basic hardware >> questions. :/ >> >> I have a couple of DEC machines which I need to replace a few >> components on, and also stock up spares of others. With the >> transistors and diodes, however, I often can't find a direct >> replacement - and don't know how to figure out what a modern >> substitute is. >> >> For a 2N3009, for example, I can find basic information and a >> datasheet online easily enough - but as for choosing a functional, >> available substitute for it, I'm honestly not even sure where to >> begin. >> >> Is there a basic resource for determining modern equivalents for >> older transistors and diodes? Can someone helpfully provide me with >> a clue here? :) > > There exist books which provide cross references replacement types for > obsolete components. Often manufacturers also provide lists in the Web > which recommend their own modern components for such old transistors. > Google is your friend there. > > The point, however, is that one should carefully look at the circuit > itself to find out what the transistor is actually used for. > > Take a basic amplifier, for instance (two resistors at the base, and > one each at the collector and emitter, resp., AC-coupled). This > circuit > is built around certain transistor characteristics; IIRC, the AoE book > describes the formulas. Unless you also replace the passive components > around it, you should have a replacement with the same hfe21, Ube, > Ic, Ib, > and maybe even fT, etc. > > But often, this whole work is not required at all. The 2N3009 is not > a "high speed switching NPN" with respect to modern devices - it may > have been 30 years ago, > and the other parameters do not really suggest it is something really > uncommon. > For some HF transistors, there may be a problem (cf. amplifiers!), > but unlikely here. > > In digital DEC machines, such a beast is possibly just used for > driving > display bulbs, in the power supply, or converting voltage levels - > I don't know the circuit you refer to. > In such a case, I have no problems to take some modern standard NPN > with > almost the same characteristics (Ic, Uce, P, hfe) which I find in my > semiconductor box. Try FindChips.com They show three vendors that have the 2N3009 in stock. Steve From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 9 12:08:09 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 10:08:09 -0700 Subject: Transistor Substitution In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <4A2E3489.15995.29749A2C@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Jun 2009 at 10:59, Steve Moulding wrote: > Try FindChips.com They show three vendors that have the 2N3009 in > stock. Let's not forget NTE: http://nte01.nteinc.com/nte/NTExRefSemiProd.nsf/$$Search Which shows that the replacement for the 2n3009 is NTE123A. --Chuck From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue Jun 9 12:21:56 2009 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 13:21:56 -0400 Subject: bizarre capacitance Message-ID: David writes: ? Anyone here use an Extech multimeter? This thing seems ? to get confused with certain capacitors. In particular, ? a new 10uF electrolytic register randomly from 1 to 8 ? nF whereas a 1-year-old 1uF electrolytic registers fine. I never trust autoranging multimeters. What's happening is that it is applying a charging current, seeing a dV/dt response that's in a different range, trying to switch to a different range, applying a different charging current, seeing dV/dt in some other range, switching to a different charging current, etc. The textbook definition of capacitance I = C dV/dt works great in a truly linear world but old electrolytics have leakage, soakage, nonlinearities, and other things messing up the textbook definition. Soakage is always fun. Take a big electrolytic, short it out and remove the short, let it sit for a while on the bench, then put a hi-impedance voltmeter on it. It will not read 0V. Tim. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 9 12:48:19 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 13:48:19 -0400 Subject: bizarre capacitance In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2A03BC5B-A98D-49A0-B25D-BF4E47B4BD4F@neurotica.com> On Jun 9, 2009, at 1:21 PM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: > Soakage is always fun. Take a big electrolytic, short it out and > remove the short, let it sit for a while on the bench, then put a > hi-impedance voltmeter on it. It will not read 0V. I've run into this! Except one doesn't need a high-impedance meter for it...I've seen them somehow recover enough charge to produce a spark when re-shorted. It's very odd. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Jun 9 12:55:10 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 10:55:10 -0700 Subject: (OT) batteries & e storage / was Re: IBM 029 progress References: <88A1FADA-91E0-4205-942E-D03FC5322C59@microspot.co.uk>, <4A2E065B.6ED92383@cs.ubc.ca> <4A2DA7A1.3668.274E1F23@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4A2EA1FD.1E69F0B@cs.ubc.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Have you been following the mystery of eeStor? They claim a > capacitor with a better energy density than any secondary cell. They > seem to be using a high voltage (3Kv) on some sort of barium titanate > setup. It it's real, it'll be Very BIg News, but many think it's > unadulterated snake oil. No, hadn't heard, I'll have to go look it up. A year or so ago I heard a news interview about an aluminum/oxide fuel cell, that is, the fuel is aluminum, handled in such a way that electrical energy is released as it undergoes controlled oxidation. Haven't heard anything since; struck me as sounds good in theory, not so much in practice and economics. From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Tue Jun 9 11:46:57 2009 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 09:46:57 -0700 Subject: Transistor Substitution References: Message-ID: <002101c9e921$e7e92a60$0201a8c0@hal9000> I don't know where you are physically located (?) but I still think this will be helpful. First place I check is the NTE Cross Reference Search ; http://nte01.nteinc.com/nte/NTExRefSemiProd.nsf/$$Search?OpenForm I've found it to be very helpful finding replacement parts and even datasheets I couldn't find elsewhere. According to their PDF datasheet an NTE123A is a replacement. TO18 package, 40 Volt, 0.8 Amp, 300 MHz NPN bipolar transistor. A 2N2222 would not work well here. Hope this helps. Best regards, Steven ----- Original Message ----- From: "O. Sharp" To: Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 10:25 PM Subject: Transistor Substitution > > Okay: I admit it, I am sometimes pig-ignorant about basic hardware > questions. :/ > > I have a couple of DEC machines which I need to replace a few components > on, and also stock up spares of others. With the transistors and diodes, > however, I often can't find a direct replacement - and don't know how to > figure out what a modern substitute is. > > For a 2N3009, for example, I can find basic information and a datasheet > online easily enough - but as for choosing a functional, available > substitute for it, I'm honestly not even sure where to begin. > > Is there a basic resource for determining modern equivalents for older > transistors and diodes? Can someone helpfully provide me with a clue > here? :) > > Thanks! From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jun 9 13:00:11 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 11:00:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Farads (Was: IBM 029 progress In-Reply-To: <1244537444.4414.0.camel@elric> References: <88A1FADA-91E0-4205-942E-D03FC5322C59@microspot.co.uk> <4A2DCA36.2050104@databasics.us> <4A2DEA93.8070205@gmail.com> <1244537444.4414.0.camel@elric> Message-ID: <20090609105642.Q18866@shell.lmi.net> >> (incidentally, how come MF does not mean Mega Farad) > Since the largest capacitor I have ever heard of is 100 Farads, it > really doesn't seem likely that there will be any confusion. Would a "thunder cloud" be considered a capacitor? If so, how many MF would lightning take? Was "capacitator" ever a valid name? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 9 12:37:50 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 18:37:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM 029 progress In-Reply-To: <4A2DCA36.2050104@databasics.us> from "Warren Wolfe" at Jun 8, 9 04:34:30 pm Message-ID: > > Roger Holmes wrote: > > (incidentally, how come MF does not mean Mega Farad) > > Since the largest capacitor I have ever heard of is 100 Farads, it > really doesn't seem likely that there will be any confusion. I rememebr seeing a 2.7kF (yes, kilofarad) capactior in a catalogue, but I think it's now been discontinued... I've never seen anythlng larger. The reason MF (or MFD) was used for microfarad was, I guess, they couldn't print/stamp lower case or greek letters onto the components. I've also seem MMFD (micro micro farad) for what is more commonly called pF. I guess this is one reason why mF (millifarad (1000uF)) is not commonly used. It would casue too much confusion with the old MF. Anyone else rememebr an upside-down Omega being used for megohms? And I am sure I've seen 'M' being used for 1000 In resistor values in some old service manuals (maybe RCA). Caused a lot of confusion to me at first (why does this valve have a 47 meg resistor feeding the screen grid??? Oh, they mean 47k..) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 9 12:40:51 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 18:40:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM 029 progress In-Reply-To: <613C55B1C8DC4BCE96C746F3440AF661@udvikling> from "Nico de Jong" at Jun 9, 9 05:27:53 am Message-ID: > > > > > Roger Holmes wrote: > >> (incidentally, how come MF does not mean Mega Farad) > > > > Since the largest capacitor I have ever heard of is 100 Farads, it > > really doesn't seem likely that there will be any confusion. > > > > > I wonder how many Farads a car battery helds It doesn't. The 'intennal' difference being that a capacitor stores energy in an electrostatic field, a car battery stores it chemcially. The practical diffeeence being that a car battery can only be used close to its nominal voltage, a capacitor can be charged to any voltage up to its breakdown voltage (if I have a 12V capacitor, I can charge it to 3V, or 7V, or.. but I can't charge a car battery to anythign other than 12V). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 9 12:53:39 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 18:53:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: Transistor Substitution In-Reply-To: from "O. Sharp" at Jun 9, 9 01:25:45 am Message-ID: > > > Okay: I admit it, I am sometimes pig-ignorant about basic hardware > questions. :/ > > I have a couple of DEC machines which I need to replace a few components > on, and also stock up spares of others. With the transistors and diodes, > however, I often can't find a direct replacement - and don't know how to > figure out what a modern substitute is. > > For a 2N3009, for example, I can find basic information and a datasheet > online easily enough - but as for choosing a functional, available > substitute for it, I'm honestly not even sure where to begin. > > Is there a basic resource for determining modern equivalents for older > transistors and diodes? Can someone helpfully provide me with a clue > here? :) It depends on what the transistor is being used for.. In general transsitors used in the logic (particulalry low-speed ones, for things like lamp drivers) and transsitors used in linear PSUs are fairly easy to substitute. Transsitors used for high energy pulse work (SMPSU choppers, horizontal output transsitors in monitors) are a lot more critical, and the data sheet may bot help. Basically, you need to get the following right : Tpye/polarity (NPN or PNP etc) VOltage ratings high enough to stand voltages in the circuit (if the ratings of the substitute exceed those of the original, you should be OK) Current ratings (particularly Ic, collector current). Again, if your substitute is better than the original it should be OK Gain (hfe and all its varients) is not too critical in most classic computer applications, particularly for switich transiustors which are driven hard into saturation. But try not to use a transistor of too low a gain. Max frequency (Ft, etc) is something you should look at in logic transistors, particularly in higher speed circuits, clock oscillators, etc. But my experience is if you pick something of the same polarity and similar characteristics, it'll work in most classic computer circuits (except for SMPSUs and horizontal output stages). Probaly 99% of small-signal transistors can be replaced y 2N3904 (NPN) and 2N3906 (PNP) :-) Diodes are evem more generic. Most switching diodes can be replaced with 1N4148 :-). For PSU rectiifers in linear PSUs (again, SMPSUs are another story), choose something with sufficient votlage rating (PIV -- peak inverse votlage) (2*sqrt(2)*output voltage should be safe, say 3 times the output voltage or more) and sufficient current rating (If, forward current). When there are similar diodes of different PIV ratings, I normally buy the highest. It's not much more expensive, and I'm on the side of safety. -tony From slawmaster at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 13:17:30 2009 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 11:17:30 -0700 Subject: Farads (Was: IBM 029 progress In-Reply-To: <20090609105642.Q18866@shell.lmi.net> References: <88A1FADA-91E0-4205-942E-D03FC5322C59@microspot.co.uk> <4A2DCA36.2050104@databasics.us> <4A2DEA93.8070205@gmail.com> <1244537444.4414.0.camel@elric> <20090609105642.Q18866@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <7d3530220906091117ydea64c8x377b6b72ac5f0ea9@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 11:00 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > Was "capacitator" ever a valid name? > It's what I used to say in 7th grade but I think I just read it wrong. Somebody corrected me and I've only seen 'capacitor' since. John -- "I've tried programming Ruby on Rails, following TechCrunch in my RSS reader, and drinking absinthe. It doesn't work. I'm going back to C, Hunter S. Thompson, and cheap whiskey." -- Ted Dziuba From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 9 13:22:26 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 14:22:26 -0400 Subject: Farads (Was: IBM 029 progress In-Reply-To: <20090609105642.Q18866@shell.lmi.net> References: <88A1FADA-91E0-4205-942E-D03FC5322C59@microspot.co.uk> <4A2DCA36.2050104@databasics.us> <4A2DEA93.8070205@gmail.com> <1244537444.4414.0.camel@elric> <20090609105642.Q18866@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <34A0F926-E7E8-400A-B71A-6FD0E4FBA856@neurotica.com> On Jun 9, 2009, at 2:00 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> (incidentally, how come MF does not mean Mega Farad) >> Since the largest capacitor I have ever heard of is 100 Farads, it >> really doesn't seem likely that there will be any confusion. > > Would a "thunder cloud" be considered a capacitor? Of course, with the other "plate" being the earth. > If so, how many MF would lightning take? LOTS. Think plate area. :) > Was "capacitator" ever a valid name? I don't believe so, but many of people have used it as such. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue Jun 9 13:19:39 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 15:19:39 -0300 Subject: IBM 029 progress References: Message-ID: <116801c9e92f$09a1c060$af5419bb@desktaba> >> > Since the largest capacitor I have ever heard of is 100 Farads, it >> > really doesn't seem likely that there will be any confusion. I imagine the BANG curto-circuiting a 100F cap :D From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 9 13:26:04 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 11:26:04 -0700 Subject: bizarre capacitance In-Reply-To: <2A03BC5B-A98D-49A0-B25D-BF4E47B4BD4F@neurotica.com> References: , <2A03BC5B-A98D-49A0-B25D-BF4E47B4BD4F@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4A2E46CC.29774.29BBEF57@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Jun 2009 at 13:48, Dave McGuire wrote: > I've run into this! Except one doesn't need a high-impedance > meter for it...I've seen them somehow recover enough charge to > produce a spark when re-shorted. It's very odd. Anyone who has done a lot of work on CRTs has experienced this. Disconnect the anode lead, short the anode cap, come back in a few minutes only to get another spark. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 9 13:29:16 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 11:29:16 -0700 Subject: IBM 029 progress In-Reply-To: References: <4A2DCA36.2050104@databasics.us> from "Warren Wolfe" at Jun 8, 9 04:34:30 pm, Message-ID: <4A2E478C.8933.29BEDE32@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Jun 2009 at 18:37, Tony Duell wrote: > Anyone else rememebr an upside-down Omega being used for megohms? No--the common use was to use an inverted omega for the unit of conductance, the mho (now the Siemens or S). --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 9 13:30:46 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 11:30:46 -0700 Subject: Farads (Was: IBM 029 progress In-Reply-To: <20090609105642.Q18866@shell.lmi.net> References: <88A1FADA-91E0-4205-942E-D03FC5322C59@microspot.co.uk>, <1244537444.4414.0.camel@elric>, <20090609105642.Q18866@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4A2E47E6.26705.29C03C7A@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Jun 2009 at 11:00, Fred Cisin wrote: > Was "capacitator" ever a valid name? Maybe--a Taser could be termed an "incapacitator"... --Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 9 13:34:11 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 14:34:11 -0400 Subject: bizarre capacitance In-Reply-To: <4A2E46CC.29774.29BBEF57@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <2A03BC5B-A98D-49A0-B25D-BF4E47B4BD4F@neurotica.com> <4A2E46CC.29774.29BBEF57@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Jun 9, 2009, at 2:26 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I've run into this! Except one doesn't need a high-impedance >> meter for it...I've seen them somehow recover enough charge to >> produce a spark when re-shorted. It's very odd. > > Anyone who has done a lot of work on CRTs has experienced this. > Disconnect the anode lead, short the anode cap, come back in a few > minutes only to get another spark. Yes. I used to work on TVs a lot when I was a kid; I'd dig dead ones out of dumpsters and (sometimes) fix and sell them. I got two or three good jolts from CRTs before I figured out what was going on. I never did quite understand how it happened, though...do you know the physics behind it? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Jun 9 13:46:22 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 11:46:22 -0700 Subject: Farads (Was: IBM 029 progress References: <88A1FADA-91E0-4205-942E-D03FC5322C59@microspot.co.uk> <4A2DCA36.2050104@databasics.us> <4A2DEA93.8070205@gmail.com> <1244537444.4414.0.camel@elric> <20090609105642.Q18866@shell.lmi.net> <34A0F926-E7E8-400A-B71A-6FD0E4FBA856@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4A2EADFD.18958D84@cs.ubc.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > > On Jun 9, 2009, at 2:00 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >>> (incidentally, how come MF does not mean Mega Farad) > >> Since the largest capacitor I have ever heard of is 100 Farads, it > >> really doesn't seem likely that there will be any confusion. > > > > Would a "thunder cloud" be considered a capacitor? > > Of course, with the other "plate" being the earth. > > > If so, how many MF would lightning take? > > LOTS. Think plate area. :) Without some numbers, I'm not entirely sure about that. Large plate area but also a rather thick dielectric and hence large plate separation. Yes, a tremendous amount of energy is released in a lightning strike (aka dielectric breakdown) but that comes with a very high voltage. C=Q/V, energy is also a function of Q & V, large amount of energy does not necessarily imply large C. > > Was "capacitator" ever a valid name? Sounds like a political leader or a type of potato chip. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jun 9 13:48:40 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 12:48:40 -0600 Subject: IBM 029 progress In-Reply-To: <4A2E5C7C.8090701@gmail.com> References: <88A1FADA-91E0-4205-942E-D03FC5322C59@microspot.co.uk> <4A2DCA36.2050104@databasics.us> <4A2DEA93.8070205@gmail.com> <1244537444.4414.0.camel@elric> <4A2E5C7C.8090701@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A2EAE88.2020100@jetnet.ab.ca> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >> On Tue, 2009-06-09 at 00:52 -0400, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>> Warren Wolfe wrote: >>>> Roger Holmes wrote: >>>>> (incidentally, how come MF does not mean Mega Farad) >>>> Since the largest capacitor I have ever heard of is 100 Farads, it >>>> really doesn't seem likely that there will be any confusion. >>> You could probably beat 100F by building into a 55gal drum and >>> designing carefully. >> >> Not that carefully. a 100F 2.7V capacitor is about the size of your >> thumb. > > I was thinking of a waay higher voltage than that. > > Peace... Sridhar > Remind me not pick up any steel drums made by Sridhar. :) From doc at vaxen.net Tue Jun 9 13:47:51 2009 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 13:47:51 -0500 (CDT) Subject: UNIX V7 Message-ID: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net> Not sure whether this is on-topic or not, but it promises to be fun: http://www.nordier.com/v7x86/ UNIX v7 for PeeCee! Doc From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 9 13:52:05 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 14:52:05 -0400 Subject: Farads (Was: IBM 029 progress In-Reply-To: <4A2EADFD.18958D84@cs.ubc.ca> References: <88A1FADA-91E0-4205-942E-D03FC5322C59@microspot.co.uk> <4A2DCA36.2050104@databasics.us> <4A2DEA93.8070205@gmail.com> <1244537444.4414.0.camel@elric> <20090609105642.Q18866@shell.lmi.net> <34A0F926-E7E8-400A-B71A-6FD0E4FBA856@neurotica.com> <4A2EADFD.18958D84@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Jun 9, 2009, at 2:46 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >>>>> (incidentally, how come MF does not mean Mega Farad) >>>> Since the largest capacitor I have ever heard of is 100 Farads, it >>>> really doesn't seem likely that there will be any confusion. >>> >>> Would a "thunder cloud" be considered a capacitor? >> >> Of course, with the other "plate" being the earth. >> >>> If so, how many MF would lightning take? >> >> LOTS. Think plate area. :) > > Without some numbers, I'm not entirely sure about that. Large plate > area but > also a rather thick dielectric and hence large plate separation. > Yes, a > tremendous amount of energy is released in a lightning strike (aka > dielectric > breakdown) but that comes with a very high voltage. C=Q/V, energy > is also a > function of Q & V, large amount of energy does not necessarily > imply large C. Hmm yes, I agree. I'd love to do a SPICE simulation of some sort of oscillator using a cloud/earth capacitor. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 9 14:08:07 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 12:08:07 -0700 Subject: IBM 029 progress In-Reply-To: <4A2DEA93.8070205@gmail.com> References: <88A1FADA-91E0-4205-942E-D03FC5322C59@microspot.co.uk> <4A2DCA36.2050104@databasics.us> <4A2DEA93.8070205@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A2EB317.5030409@brouhaha.com> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > You could probably beat 100F by building into a 55gal drum and > designing carefully. If by "designing carefully" you mean putting a lot of parallel supercaps inside the drum, yes. If you mean designing an actual capacitor yourself out of materials you machine yourself with resources available to a serious hobbyist, most likely not. Making high-value capacitors is NOT easy, which is why capacitors >1F didn't become generally available until the mid-1980s. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 9 14:15:15 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 12:15:15 -0700 Subject: IBM 029 progress In-Reply-To: <1244537444.4414.0.camel@elric> References: <88A1FADA-91E0-4205-942E-D03FC5322C59@microspot.co.uk> <4A2DCA36.2050104@databasics.us> <4A2DEA93.8070205@gmail.com> <1244537444.4414.0.camel@elric> Message-ID: <4A2EB4C3.8090007@brouhaha.com> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > You could probably beat 100F by building into a 55gal drum and > designing carefully. Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Not that carefully. a 100F 2.7V capacitor is about the size of your thumb. Sure, a product with a huge amount of engineering behind it and significant manufacturing technology can be made like that. For a do-it-yourself capacitor design, I'll be extremely impressed with someone that makes a true 100F capacitor from raw materials, that has less than one ohm ESR, and is ANY size. Allowing the volume to be 55 gallons does not make it that much easier. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 9 14:16:48 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 12:16:48 -0700 Subject: IBM 029 progress In-Reply-To: <4A2E5C7C.8090701@gmail.com> References: <88A1FADA-91E0-4205-942E-D03FC5322C59@microspot.co.uk> <4A2DCA36.2050104@databasics.us> <4A2DEA93.8070205@gmail.com> <1244537444.4414.0.camel@elric> <4A2E5C7C.8090701@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A2EB520.2080009@brouhaha.com> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Not that carefully. a 100F 2.7V capacitor is about the size of your > thumb. Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I was thinking of a waay higher voltage than that. > Then the size is proportionately "waay higher". Eric From segin2005 at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 14:20:34 2009 From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Kirn Gill) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 15:20:34 -0400 Subject: UNIX V7 In-Reply-To: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net> References: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <4A2EB602.6020107@gmail.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Doc wrote: > Not sure whether this is on-topic or not, but it promises to be fun: > > http://www.nordier.com/v7x86/ > > UNIX v7 for PeeCee! > > > Doc > I have the sources and utilities to build a copy of UNIX v6 against a 286. Too bad the porters didn't speak English and their modifications are hard to discern from the code (since the comments, being in a language I cannot read, are totally useless) I have it around here somewhere, if I find it, should I mail it to the list? Also, if you mail me off-list about this, I request that, no matter what you put in your subject field, it must start with "*** UNIX V6 286 SOURCE" because I have a high-traffic inbox. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkoutgIACgkQF9H43UytGiaVxACgu3dI1HCetw59IscuMQXStpVl wHsAmwZr4K/cpSUiZXOpYVjCfMaR6X75 =gtXS -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From segin2005 at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 14:31:52 2009 From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Kirn Gill) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 15:31:52 -0400 Subject: UNIX V7 In-Reply-To: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net> References: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net> Message-ID: <4A2EB8A8.6050609@gmail.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Doc wrote: > Not sure whether this is on-topic or not, but it promises to be > fun: > > http://www.nordier.com/v7x86/ > > UNIX v7 for PeeCee! > > > Doc > Ok, so I downloaded the image, got it running, and tried to use it Note: The user 'root' is password-protected, and I can't find the documentation showing the default pass. Login as 'bin', there is no password. Editing is a pain (for me): $ vi vi: not found $ ex ex: not found $ ed ^D $ haha, ed, fuck that. I need a screen editor. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkouuKcACgkQF9H43UytGiau/QCgj5DowSiveKOJpjZls59qrtF1 VPYAnikeo36koJDqLLEeqsfWwlGV9+8Z =xG3h -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 14:54:27 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 15:54:27 -0400 Subject: UNIX V7 In-Reply-To: <4A2EB8A8.6050609@gmail.com> References: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net> <4A2EB8A8.6050609@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 3:31 PM, Kirn Gill wrote: > I need a screen editor. Get off my lawn... -ethan From segin2005 at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 15:12:03 2009 From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Kirn Gill) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 16:12:03 -0400 Subject: UNIX V7 In-Reply-To: References: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net> <4A2EB8A8.6050609@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A2EC213.5030005@gmail.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 3:31 PM, Kirn Gill > wrote: >> I need a screen editor. > > Get off my lawn... > > -ethan Get off my graphics display. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkouwhMACgkQF9H43UytGibkIgCeLJTTKYwRnM+NWYCm5DSs309V NoMAoKuGAz+xfRKujnbtnF+Zlr2CeRG6 =/oyb -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Tue Jun 9 14:58:26 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 12:58:26 -0700 Subject: Farads (Was: IBM 029 progress In-Reply-To: References: <88A1FADA-91E0-4205-942E-D03FC5322C59@microspot.co.uk> <4A2DCA36.2050104@databasics.us> <4A2DEA93.8070205@gmail.com> <1244537444.4414.0.camel@elric> <20090609105642.Q18866@shell.lmi.net> <34A0F926-E7E8-400A-B71A-6FD0E4FBA856@neurotica.com> <4A2EADFD.18958D84@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Jun 9, 2009, at 11:52 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jun 9, 2009, at 2:46 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >>>>>> (incidentally, how come MF does not mean Mega Farad) >>>>> Since the largest capacitor I have ever heard of is 100 Farads, it >>>>> really doesn't seem likely that there will be any confusion. >>>> >>>> Would a "thunder cloud" be considered a capacitor? >>> >>> Of course, with the other "plate" being the earth. >>> >>>> If so, how many MF would lightning take? >>> >>> LOTS. Think plate area. :) >> >> Without some numbers, I'm not entirely sure about that. Large plate >> area but >> also a rather thick dielectric and hence large plate separation. >> Yes, a >> tremendous amount of energy is released in a lightning strike (aka >> dielectric >> breakdown) but that comes with a very high voltage. C=Q/V, energy >> is also a >> function of Q & V, large amount of energy does not necessarily >> imply large C. > > Hmm yes, I agree. I'd love to do a SPICE simulation of some sort > of oscillator using a cloud/earth capacitor. :) > Then add in a flux-capacitor / delorean simulator to test out Doc Brown's theories on time travel... > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jun 9 15:17:54 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 14:17:54 -0600 Subject: govliq: SGI 4D/280GTXB, IBM 9395, 3 RL02, VAX-6000/310, PDP-11/84, PDP-11 kennedy 9400 (Jacksonville, FL) Message-ID: Large bundle of stuff. The SGI machine looks in great cosmetic condition. RL02s look a little beat up, VAX and PDP-11/84 look in good cosmetic shape. The lot description says Textile Scrap, Misc. so I would enquire directly with the contact phone first before bidding. Roughly two weeks left to bid on it, though. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Jun 9 15:38:09 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 13:38:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: bizarre capacitance In-Reply-To: <2A03BC5B-A98D-49A0-B25D-BF4E47B4BD4F@neurotica.com> References: <2A03BC5B-A98D-49A0-B25D-BF4E47B4BD4F@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Jun 2009, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jun 9, 2009, at 1:21 PM, Shoppa, Tim wrote: >> Soakage is always fun. Take a big electrolytic, short it out and remove the >> short, let it sit for a while on the bench, then put a hi-impedance >> voltmeter on it. It will not read 0V. > > I've run into this! Except one doesn't need a high-impedance meter for > it...I've seen them somehow recover enough charge to produce a spark when > re-shorted. It's very odd. Isn't that why the Right Thing to do with big capacitors is to store them shorted? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jun 9 15:39:47 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 14:39:47 -0600 Subject: Farads (Was: IBM 029 progress In-Reply-To: References: <88A1FADA-91E0-4205-942E-D03FC5322C59@microspot.co.uk> <4A2DCA36.2050104@databasics.us> <4A2DEA93.8070205@gmail.com> <1244537444.4414.0.camel@elric> <20090609105642.Q18866@shell.lmi.net> <34A0F926-E7E8-400A-B71A-6FD0E4FBA856@neurotica.com> <4A2EADFD.18958D84@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4A2EC893.6050602@jetnet.ab.ca> Josh Dersch wrote: > Then add in a flux-capacitor / delorean simulator to test out Doc > Brown's theories on time travel... That goes with the other thread ... Earliest mobile computer :) Notice that only in Star trek/Bab 5 are computers used ... Every other kind of Si-Fi is all analog. :) Ben. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 15:46:23 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 16:46:23 -0400 Subject: Farads (Was: IBM 029 progress In-Reply-To: <4A2EC893.6050602@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <88A1FADA-91E0-4205-942E-D03FC5322C59@microspot.co.uk> <4A2DCA36.2050104@databasics.us> <4A2DEA93.8070205@gmail.com> <1244537444.4414.0.camel@elric> <20090609105642.Q18866@shell.lmi.net> <34A0F926-E7E8-400A-B71A-6FD0E4FBA856@neurotica.com> <4A2EADFD.18958D84@cs.ubc.ca> <4A2EC893.6050602@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > That goes with the other thread ... Earliest mobile computer :) > Notice that only in Star trek/Bab 5 ?are computers used ... Every other kind > of Si-Fi is all analog. :) "Just what do you think you're doing, Ben? Ben, I really think I'm entitled to an answer to that question." -- Will From slawmaster at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 15:49:51 2009 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 13:49:51 -0700 Subject: UNIX V7 In-Reply-To: References: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net> <4A2EB8A8.6050609@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7d3530220906091349kd5cc64dkc36ed0d7906a1ddb@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 12:54 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 3:31 PM, Kirn Gill wrote: >> I need a screen editor. > > Get off my lawn... > > -ethan > ed /is/ the standard editor When all else fails -- "I've tried programming Ruby on Rails, following TechCrunch in my RSS reader, and drinking absinthe. It doesn't work. I'm going back to C, Hunter S. Thompson, and cheap whiskey." -- Ted Dziuba From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 15:54:14 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 16:54:14 -0400 Subject: govliq: SGI 4D/280GTXB, IBM 9395, 3 RL02, VAX-6000/310, PDP-11/84, PDP-11 kennedy 9400 (Jacksonville, FL) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Large bundle of stuff. ?The SGI machine looks in great cosmetic > condition. ?RL02s look a little beat up, VAX and PDP-11/84 look in > good cosmetic shape. > > > > The lot description says Textile Scrap, Misc. so I would enquire > directly with the contact phone first before bidding. ?Roughly two > weeks left to bid on it, though. Big screw up - I bet that auction gets pulled. It is a good pile to watch, as there is good stuff (ES/9000). Enquire, yes, lest you win 1200 pounds of used Army socks. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 15:56:32 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 16:56:32 -0400 Subject: bizarre capacitance In-Reply-To: References: <2A03BC5B-A98D-49A0-B25D-BF4E47B4BD4F@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > Isn't that why the Right Thing to do with big capacitors is to store them > shorted? Yes, for high voltage caps. I had some 0.0015uF 120 kV capacitors that were new in the crates, but had a little wire shorting each out. -- Will From hadsell at blueskystudios.com Tue Jun 9 16:09:50 2009 From: hadsell at blueskystudios.com (Richard Hadsell) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 17:09:50 -0400 Subject: bizarre capacitance In-Reply-To: References: , <2A03BC5B-A98D-49A0-B25D-BF4E47B4BD4F@neurotica.com> <4A2E46CC.29774.29BBEF57@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4A2ECF9E.9040209@blueskystudios.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > Yes. I used to work on TVs a lot when I was a kid; I'd dig dead > ones out of dumpsters and (sometimes) fix and sell them. I got two or > three good jolts from CRTs before I figured out what was going on. I > never did quite understand how it happened, though...do you know the > physics behind it? I have always thought that there was some residual charge in the body of the capacitor. It would take some time for all of it to migrate to the electrodes after the main charge on the electrodes was first removed. I assume the time it takes to fully discharge a large capacitor is the reason we are told to hold a computer's power button down for 15 or 30 sec before opening it up to work on it. -- Dick Hadsell 203-992-6320 Fax: 203-992-6001 Reply-to: hadsell at blueskystudios.com Blue Sky Studios http://www.blueskystudios.com 1 American Lane, Greenwich, CT 06831-2560 From segin2005 at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 16:10:17 2009 From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Kirn Gill) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 17:10:17 -0400 Subject: UNIX V7 In-Reply-To: <7d3530220906091349kd5cc64dkc36ed0d7906a1ddb@mail.gmail.com> References: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net> <4A2EB8A8.6050609@gmail.com> <7d3530220906091349kd5cc64dkc36ed0d7906a1ddb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A2ECFB9.3030309@gmail.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 John Floren wrote: > On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 12:54 PM, Ethan Dicks > wrote: >> On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 3:31 PM, Kirn Gill >> wrote: >>> I need a screen editor. > > ed /is/ the standard editor > > When all else fails It might seem odd, but I don't know how to use 'ed'. I kinda know 'ex' due to the fact 'vi' is 'ex' turned from a line editor to a screen editor. Most of what I know about computers from way back is mostly limited to UNIX (and that's only because UNIX didn't die like the other OSes.) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkouz7kACgkQF9H43UytGibXwACeKbEwHdRFbJWR2GEQTLhT6sai CNEAn3lCmbG1dAaI0H+XvdP6eDeSSYIa =JS57 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jun 9 16:25:17 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 15:25:17 -0600 Subject: govliq: SGI 4D/280GTXB, IBM 9395, 3 RL02, VAX-6000/310, PDP-11/84, PDP-11 kennedy 9400 (Jacksonville, FL) In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 09 Jun 2009 16:54:14 -0400. Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > > Large bundle of stuff. =A0The SGI machine looks in great cosmetic > > condition. =A0RL02s look a little beat up, VAX and PDP-11/84 look in > > good cosmetic shape. > > > > > > > > The lot description says Textile Scrap, Misc. so I would enquire > > directly with the contact phone first before bidding. =A0Roughly two > > weeks left to bid on it, though. > > Big screw up - I bet that auction gets pulled. It is a good pile to > watch, as there is good stuff (ES/9000). > > Enquire, yes, lest you win 1200 pounds of used Army socks. Definately best to enquire, but it feels more likely to me that the categorization is wrong than the photos and auction description. I just purchased a 4D/480 from them, so I suspect its more likely to be computers than textile scrap. Its likely that the 4D/280 would have been surplussed at the same time as the 4D/480. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 9 16:50:27 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 14:50:27 -0700 Subject: UNIX V7 In-Reply-To: <7d3530220906091349kd5cc64dkc36ed0d7906a1ddb@mail.gmail.com> References: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net>, , <7d3530220906091349kd5cc64dkc36ed0d7906a1ddb@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A2E76B3.20345.2A770DBF@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Jun 2009 at 13:49, John Floren wrote: > ed /is/ the standard editor Just curious, does anyone here use (as their editor) Epsilon? --Chuck From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Jun 9 16:55:14 2009 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 22:55:14 +0100 Subject: Stuff in Portland, Oregon In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <017101c9e94c$f927a100$eb76e300$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> I am interested in MicroVAX II CPU and memory boards. I am in the UK and would need to have them shipped. Would you be prepared to consider that? Any idea what it might all come to cost me? Thanks Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy > Sent: 09 June 2009 15:46 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Stuff in Portland, Oregon > > Strange, it shouldn't have bounced. The only time it should do that > is when my mailbox fills up (typically people sending to many > photo's). > > I have spare MicroVAX II board sets (not sure how many), but no spare > chassis's. Except for my VAXstation II/RC, all the chassis's are > classified as spares for the PDP-11's or II/RC. > > Something I should have mentioned is that I might be interested in > trading computer gear for the right Medium or Large Format > photography equipment. > > Zane > > > > > At 10:30 AM -0400 6/9/09, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > >your email address bounced. > >you wouldn't happen to have a microvax 2 in there would ya? > > > >Dan. > > > >> Date: Mon, 8 Jun 2009 20:26:40 -0700 > >> To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org > >> From: healyzh at aracnet.com > >> Subject: Stuff in Portland, Oregon > >> > >> Is anyone interested in stuff located in the vicinity of Portland, > >> Oregon? I'm not sure what all it would included. It might even > >> depend on the persons interests. > >> > >> The stuff needs to be out of storage by this weekend, a lot has > >> already been moved into the garage of our new house, and the rest > >> will hopefully be moved between now and Sunday. Some free, some > not > >> so free. I'm looking to downsize and tighten the focus my > collection > >> since realistically I don't mess with the stuff much any more. > Some > >> items such as spares for my PDP-11's I'm not really interested in > >> getting rid of. Though for the right price I could be talked out > of > >> most things. > >> > >> My focus has shifted primarily to DEC PDP-11, VAX, and Alpha as > well > >> as C-64. Though I'm hoping to get an Apple ][ of some sort up and > >> running as well as a couple others now that I have the space. > >> > >> Zane > >> > >> > >> -- > >> | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > >> | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > >> | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | > >> +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > >> | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > >> | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > >> | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > > > >_________________________________________________________________ > >Attention all humans. We are your photos. Free us. > >http://go.microsoft.com/?linkid=9666046 > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From doug at stillhq.com Tue Jun 9 17:06:10 2009 From: doug at stillhq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:06:10 +1000 Subject: UNIX V7 In-Reply-To: <4A2E76B3.20345.2A770DBF@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net>, , <7d3530220906091349kd5cc64dkc36ed0d7906a1ddb@mail.gmail.com> <4A2E76B3.20345.2A770DBF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4A2EDCD2.1060208@stillhq.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9 Jun 2009 at 13:49, John Floren wrote: > > >> ed /is/ the standard editor >> > > Just curious, does anyone here use (as their editor) Epsilon? > > --Chuck > > No - I don't but I am reminded of my youth. Years ago I used to repair PC's (Back when you had to type stuff to do things, and when the 8087 was just awesome...) My editor of choice was the MSDOS EDLIN tool. Without fail, every client who watched me working asked why I didn't use QEDIT34 or ExtraED98 or "InsertAwesomeEditorNameHere", to which I would always reply - 'you may have "InsertAwesomeEditorNameHere", but I can never guarantee the next client will have it, so I got good at using the standard editor! That saved me so much time! Now, where is that copy of TECO that I found for windoze recently..... From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 9 17:09:22 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 18:09:22 -0400 Subject: UNIX V7 In-Reply-To: <4A2E76B3.20345.2A770DBF@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net>, , <7d3530220906091349kd5cc64dkc36ed0d7906a1ddb@mail.gmail.com> <4A2E76B3.20345.2A770DBF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <3C8A1D44-2873-4813-8E24-0F29F73C3769@neurotica.com> On Jun 9, 2009, at 5:50 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> ed /is/ the standard editor > > Just curious, does anyone here use (as their editor) Epsilon? I used it many years ago, but haven't used DOS in forever. Howabout Brief? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Jun 9 17:14:23 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 23:14:23 +0100 Subject: bizarre capacitance In-Reply-To: <4A2ECF9E.9040209@blueskystudios.com> References: , <2A03BC5B-A98D-49A0-B25D-BF4E47B4BD4F@neurotica.com> <4A2E46CC.29774.29BBEF57@cclist.sydex.com> <4A2ECF9E.9040209@blueskystudios.com> Message-ID: <4A2EDEBF.8030408@philpem.me.uk> Richard Hadsell wrote: > I > assume the time it takes to fully discharge a large capacitor is the > reason we are told to hold a computer's power button down for 15 or 30 > sec before opening it up to work on it. See, I don't get the point of that. Nearly every latching push-on/push-off mains power switch I've seen will hold in the "on" position if you press it in and hold it while it's in the 'on' state. There's even less point doing this to a rocker or toggle switch... The only time I can see any point to it is when you're dealing with a fairly recent PC -- holding down the power switch on an ATX system forces the power off. You've still got DC 5V running through the components though (via the 5V standby power circuit). I wouldn't touch one of these without pulling the IEC plug out of the back of the power supply (though /technically/ it's a wire-mounted socket -- sockets generally have holes, plugs have pins). Of course, it's entirely possible (and highly likely) that I've got the wrong end of the stick here. That said, my Standard Operating Procedure of finding the end of the mains cable and pulling it out of the wall before removing the case screws has served me well for long enough. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 9 17:31:38 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 18:31:38 -0400 Subject: UNIX V7 In-Reply-To: <4A2EDCD2.1060208@stillhq.com> References: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net>, , <7d3530220906091349kd5cc64dkc36ed0d7906a1ddb@mail.gmail.com> <4A2E76B3.20345.2A770DBF@cclist.sydex.com> <4A2EDCD2.1060208@stillhq.com> Message-ID: <06653695-D603-4C24-9B5A-B678715B9B69@neurotica.com> On Jun 9, 2009, at 6:06 PM, Doug Jackson wrote: > Years ago I used to repair PC's (Back when you had to type stuff to > do things, and when the 8087 was just awesome...) My editor of > choice was the MSDOS EDLIN tool. Without fail, every client who > watched me working asked why I didn't use QEDIT34 or ExtraED98 or > "InsertAwesomeEditorNameHere", to which I would always reply - 'you > may have "InsertAwesomeEditorNameHere", but I can never guarantee > the next client will have it, so I got good at using the standard > editor! I just carried around a copy of Turbo Pascal 3.0 on a floppy. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 17:30:28 2009 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 15:30:28 -0700 Subject: UNIX V7 In-Reply-To: <3C8A1D44-2873-4813-8E24-0F29F73C3769@neurotica.com> References: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net> <7d3530220906091349kd5cc64dkc36ed0d7906a1ddb@mail.gmail.com> <4A2E76B3.20345.2A770DBF@cclist.sydex.com> <3C8A1D44-2873-4813-8E24-0F29F73C3769@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 3:09 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jun 9, 2009, at 5:50 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> >>> ed /is/ the standard editor >> >> Just curious, does anyone here use (as their editor) Epsilon? > > ?I used it many years ago, but haven't used DOS in forever. ?Howabout Brief? > > ? ? ? ? ?-Dave Now THAT brings back some memories. I was an avid Brief user for years and even after they stopped selling it, I would reconfigure other editors to use the Brief keystrokes. And as for Epsilon... I wanted to use that editor at one time, but I thought it a bit pricey back in the days (at least for me). Lugaru software still has a web site and they still sell Epsilon (checking...yep, they still exist at http://www.lugaru.com and have V13 of Epsilon available for early evaluation; they still want $250 a copy). Mark From segin2005 at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 17:32:18 2009 From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Kirn Gill) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 18:32:18 -0400 Subject: IRC channel? Message-ID: <4A2EE2F2.7080305@gmail.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Do we have an IRC channel? I'd really like to know. The mailing list seems like a clumsy medium at times. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkou4vEACgkQF9H43UytGiZd2ACgv0bdGz7m1riZqHd4pNgJPHWX pCsAnR8C+DoKfHFoZWiTSqxeGEJDQmva =Ye1R -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Jun 9 17:32:03 2009 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 17:32:03 -0500 Subject: P-System (was Re: PDP 11/73 on the Internet) In-Reply-To: <4A2D6B52.4030608@machineroom.info> References: <4A2AC32C.1070103@machineroom.info> <4A2C036F.1000108@bitsavers.org> <4A2D6B52.4030608@machineroom.info> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20090609172248.0465f418@mail.threedee.com> At 02:49 PM 6/8/2009, James Wilson wrote: >Sadly not. AFAIK none of the original staff are still with the company, now called "Cabot communications" (cabot.co.uk). A good contact, if you can find him, would be Gordon Wilkie who used to be the technical manager and knew the P-System inside out. (A quick bit of hunting shows him as a freelance - http://www.bristolitservices.co.uk/index.html). Good find! There were once a handful of non-exclusive licensees, but Cabot was the last one standing with UCSD. A decade ago, they were pushing the P-System to drive set-top cable boxes (presumably as an alternative to Java). I think that hope faded around 2001. UCSD did release I.5: http://invent.ucsd.edu/technology/cases/1995-prior/SD1991-807.shtml as assembled by David Barto: http://www.kdbarto.org/UCSD_Pascal.html - John From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Jun 9 17:37:13 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 15:37:13 -0700 Subject: bizarre capacitance References: , <2A03BC5B-A98D-49A0-B25D-BF4E47B4BD4F@neurotica.com> <4A2E46CC.29774.29BBEF57@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4A2EE41A.A0AA128C@cs.ubc.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > > On Jun 9, 2009, at 2:26 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> I've run into this! Except one doesn't need a high-impedance > >> meter for it...I've seen them somehow recover enough charge to > >> produce a spark when re-shorted. It's very odd. > > > > Anyone who has done a lot of work on CRTs has experienced this. > > Disconnect the anode lead, short the anode cap, come back in a few > > minutes only to get another spark. > > Yes. I used to work on TVs a lot when I was a kid; I'd dig dead > ones out of dumpsters and (sometimes) fix and sell them. I got two > or three good jolts from CRTs before I figured out what was going > on. I never did quite understand how it happened, though...do you > know the physics behind it? I don't claim to have a full physics understanding of the issue but I think a rough hand-waving explanation is that with the capacitor charged and the dielectric under potential stress, some charge creeps into and is held by the dielectric itself. It takes time for the charge to creep into the dielectric. Once the potential is removed by shorting/loading the cap, the dielectric charge will redistribute itself to reflect the new potential state, i.e. creep back out, but this too takes time. If the discharge path has been removed the charge will accumulate on the plates. Search for "dielectric absorption", or look up "permittivity" in Wikipedia to get an idea of just how complex capacitors are (!) If my understanding is correct, the phenomenom will show up if the dielectric is a material, as it involves the atoms of the material, but will not if the dielectric is a vacuum. From doug at stillhq.com Tue Jun 9 17:49:06 2009 From: doug at stillhq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:49:06 +1000 Subject: UNIX V7 In-Reply-To: <06653695-D603-4C24-9B5A-B678715B9B69@neurotica.com> References: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net>, , <7d3530220906091349kd5cc64dkc36ed0d7906a1ddb@mail.gmail.com> <4A2E76B3.20345.2A770DBF@cclist.sydex.com> <4A2EDCD2.1060208@stillhq.com> <06653695-D603-4C24-9B5A-B678715B9B69@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4A2EE6E2.3030804@stillhq.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jun 9, 2009, at 6:06 PM, Doug Jackson wrote: >> Years ago I used to repair PC's (Back when you had to type stuff to >> do things, and when the 8087 was just awesome...) My editor of >> choice was the MSDOS EDLIN tool. Without fail, every client who >> watched me working asked why I didn't use QEDIT34 or ExtraED98 or >> "InsertAwesomeEditorNameHere", to which I would always reply - 'you >> may have "InsertAwesomeEditorNameHere", but I can never guarantee the >> next client will have it, so I got good at using the standard editor! > > I just carried around a copy of Turbo Pascal 3.0 on a floppy. > > -Dave > Stopped relying on floppies after I did some work for a government organisation here (who shall remain nameless) - who gave me a shiny new box of floppies to replace my box of diag floppies after they had been in their site. Bummer! Nowadays - they simply dont let the media in at all! From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Jun 9 17:49:53 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 23:49:53 +0100 Subject: IRC channel? In-Reply-To: <4A2EE2F2.7080305@gmail.com> References: <4A2EE2F2.7080305@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A2EE711.1050106@philpem.me.uk> Kirn Gill wrote: > Do we have an IRC channel? > I'd really like to know. The mailing list seems like a clumsy medium > at times. #classiccmp on irc.freenode.net. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 17:51:12 2009 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 23:51:12 +0100 Subject: IRC channel? In-Reply-To: <4A2EE2F2.7080305@gmail.com> References: <4A2EE2F2.7080305@gmail.com> Message-ID: sure #classiccmp on irc.freenode.net Dave Caroline From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 17:57:13 2009 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 15:57:13 -0700 Subject: UNIX V7 In-Reply-To: <06653695-D603-4C24-9B5A-B678715B9B69@neurotica.com> References: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net> <7d3530220906091349kd5cc64dkc36ed0d7906a1ddb@mail.gmail.com> <4A2E76B3.20345.2A770DBF@cclist.sydex.com> <4A2EDCD2.1060208@stillhq.com> <06653695-D603-4C24-9B5A-B678715B9B69@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 3:31 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jun 9, 2009, at 6:06 PM, Doug Jackson wrote: >> >> Years ago I used to repair PC's (Back when you had to type stuff to do >> things, and when the 8087 was just awesome...) ?My editor of choice was the >> MSDOS EDLIN tool. ?Without fail, every client who watched me working asked >> why I didn't use QEDIT34 or ExtraED98 or "InsertAwesomeEditorNameHere", to >> which I would always reply - 'you may have "InsertAwesomeEditorNameHere", >> but I can never guarantee the next client will have it, so I got good at >> using the standard editor! > > ?I just carried around a copy of Turbo Pascal 3.0 on a floppy. I should have mentioned that, apparently, the $250 price for Epsilon includes executables for every OS they support (Windows, Linux, Mac OS X, FreeBSD, OS/2, DOS)... not a bad deal, I suppose. :) Mark From chd_1 at nktelco.net Tue Jun 9 18:14:13 2009 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H Dickman) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 19:14:13 -0400 Subject: Transistor Substitution In-Reply-To: <4A2E3489.15995.29749A2C@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4A2E3489.15995.29749A2C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4A2EECC5.6070901@nktelco.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9 Jun 2009 at 10:59, Steve Moulding wrote: > > >> Try FindChips.com They show three vendors that have the 2N3009 in >> stock. >> > > Let's not forget NTE: > > http://nte01.nteinc.com/nte/NTExRefSemiProd.nsf/$$Search > > Which shows that the replacement for the 2n3009 is NTE123A. > > --Chuck > > ECG (now part of NTE I think) seems to get you a worst case though. I had a request a couple of weeks ago from the maintenance department for an ECG such and such... I looked in my stores and found nothing that could match it. I asked what the number on the part was and he said 2N3904. I had a handful of those on my desk. -chuck From doug at stillhq.com Tue Jun 9 18:34:36 2009 From: doug at stillhq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 09:34:36 +1000 Subject: Transistor Substitution In-Reply-To: <4A2EECC5.6070901@nktelco.net> References: , <4A2E3489.15995.29749A2C@cclist.sydex.com> <4A2EECC5.6070901@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <4A2EF18C.4020404@stillhq.com> Hey - Isn't the 2n2222 the replacement transistor for *everything? :-P > From db at db.net Tue Jun 9 18:47:48 2009 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 19:47:48 -0400 Subject: UNIX V7 In-Reply-To: <4A2ECFB9.3030309@gmail.com> References: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net> <4A2EB8A8.6050609@gmail.com> <7d3530220906091349kd5cc64dkc36ed0d7906a1ddb@mail.gmail.com> <4A2ECFB9.3030309@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090609234748.GA45666@night.db.net> On Tue, Jun 09, 2009 at 05:10:17PM -0400, Kirn Gill wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > John Floren wrote: > > On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 12:54 PM, Ethan Dicks > > wrote: > >> On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 3:31 PM, Kirn Gill > >> wrote: > >>> I need a screen editor. > > ... > due to the fact 'vi' is 'ex' turned from a line editor to a screen > editor. Most of what I know about computers from way back is mostly I got very good with the UofT extended version of ed because our sys admin refused to load up vi. vi was too much of a system load for the pdp-11. I still use ed on occasion if it is a quick fix. - Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 9 18:56:58 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 16:56:58 -0700 Subject: UNIX V7 In-Reply-To: <3C8A1D44-2873-4813-8E24-0F29F73C3769@neurotica.com> References: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net>, <4A2E76B3.20345.2A770DBF@cclist.sydex.com>, <3C8A1D44-2873-4813-8E24-0F29F73C3769@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4A2E945A.10290.2AEAE12C@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Jun 2009 at 18:09, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Just curious, does anyone here use (as their editor) Epsilon? > > I used it many years ago, but haven't used DOS in forever. > Howabout Brief? Toyed with Brief a bit, as well as Vedit. The reason I asked about Epsilon is because years ago (over 20) a friend made me a gift of Epsilon and I'm ashamed to say that I never bothered to look at it. I recently ran across the manual for it while looking for something else. I like my editors stupid to match my natural inclination. :) For most stuff, I'm still using the (ported and re-ported) version of an editor I wrote in the 70's to run on an 8085. If I don't like something, I can always change it. So much software, so little time... --Chuck From ragooman at comcast.net Tue Jun 9 19:15:16 2009 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 20:15:16 -0400 Subject: Help with identifying digital transistor circuit cards. Message-ID: <4A2EFB14.4060304@comcast.net> I was at the recent hamfest here in Pittsburgh and was lucky enough to pickup for free some old digital transistor circuit cards. There wasn't any identifying logos are names on any of them. I'm hoping someone here might have a clue as to what system these are from. Below are links to the photos of each circuit card. http://tinyurl.com/kuuxoq http://tinyurl.com/m94cpq http://tinyurl.com/nj6mza http://tinyurl.com/ld6gy9 http://tinyurl.com/me53ly thanks, =Dan -- [ = http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] From chd_1 at nktelco.net Tue Jun 9 19:21:45 2009 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H Dickman) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 20:21:45 -0400 Subject: bizarre capacitance In-Reply-To: <4A2EE41A.A0AA128C@cs.ubc.ca> References: , <2A03BC5B-A98D-49A0-B25D-BF4E47B4BD4F@neurotica.com> <4A2E46CC.29774.29BBEF57@cclist.sydex.com> <4A2EE41A.A0AA128C@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4A2EFC99.9020900@nktelco.net> Brent Hilpert wrote: > Search for "dielectric absorption", or look up "permittivity" in Wikipedia to > get an idea of just how complex capacitors are (!) > Bob Pease called this soakage. -chuck From evan at snarc.net Tue Jun 9 19:30:21 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 20:30:21 -0400 Subject: Bricklin's new book Message-ID: <4A2EFE9D.80204@snarc.net> I plan to read this soon: "Bricklin on Technology" -- http://www.bricklin.com/bontech/ From ragooman at comcast.net Tue Jun 9 19:30:55 2009 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 20:30:55 -0400 Subject: TEACO Floppy drive Tester - any info available online ? Message-ID: <4A2EFEBF.8000805@comcast.net> I picked up this TEACO CD 2-3 floppy drive tester for only $5 at the recent hamfest here in Pittsburgh and like to get it working again. I did a search and found some old postings on here from 10+yrs ago, but without any leads to any info for this tester. I hope somebody might have a clue about this tester and some leads on finding a manual. http://tinyurl.com/l9o5gn thanks =Dan -- [ = http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jun 9 19:40:38 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 17:40:38 -0700 Subject: bizarre capacitance In-Reply-To: <4A2EFC99.9020900@nktelco.net> References: , <2A03BC5B-A98D-49A0-B25D-BF4E47B4BD4F@neurotica.com> <4A2E46CC.29774.29BBEF57@cclist.sydex.com> <4A2EE41A.A0AA128C@cs.ubc.ca> <4A2EFC99.9020900@nktelco.net> Message-ID: > From: chd_1 at nktelco.net > > Brent Hilpert wrote: >> Search for "dielectric absorption", or look up "permittivity" in Wikipedia to >> get an idea of just how complex capacitors are (!) >> > Bob Pease called this soakage. > > -chuck > > Hi There are actually two factors. Dielectric absorption is one of them. The other is induced charge. Others have described dielectric absorption. Induced charge works like this. When the internal part is discharged, it induces a charge on all the dust and surfaces that are not covered with conductive paint. These get a negative charge on them from doing this discharge. Over time, this outside charge leaks to the conductive surfaces, reinducing a positive back onto the internal surface. The two are factors. I've found that the induced charge is a major factor. While holding the short, wiping all the external surfaces reduces the charge that builds by quite a bit. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail?. http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009 From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jun 9 20:05:44 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 18:05:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Editor (Was: UNIX V7 In-Reply-To: <4A2EDCD2.1060208@stillhq.com> References: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net>, , <7d3530220906091349kd5cc64dkc36ed0d7906a1ddb@mail.gmail.com> <4A2E76B3.20345.2A770DBF@cclist.sydex.com> <4A2EDCD2.1060208@stillhq.com> Message-ID: <20090609174839.S33811@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 10 Jun 2009, Doug Jackson wrote: > No - I don't but I am reminded of my youth. . . > "InsertAwesomeEditorNameHere", to which I would always reply - 'you may > have "InsertAwesomeEditorNameHere", but I can never guarantee the next > client will have it, so I got good at using the standard editor! I used Windows WRITE for my PhD written exams. I was the first person in the department to ever use a word processor for the writtens! (I wanted my answers to be logible) Shortly after my father died, one of his friends decided to wipe some programs from his computer. His buddy, who "knows all about computers", erased *.* When that seemed to leave two file behind, he erased . and erased .. When I repaired the file deletions, I needed to edit his AUTOEXEC.BAT His buddy was being obnoxiously overly present. As soon as I started DEBUG to edit with, his buddy found a reason to leave in a hurry. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jun 9 20:11:59 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 18:11:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IRC channel? In-Reply-To: <4A2EE2F2.7080305@gmail.com> References: <4A2EE2F2.7080305@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090609181001.M33811@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 9 Jun 2009, Kirn Gill wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > Do we have an IRC channel? > I'd really like to know. The mailing list seems like a clumsy medium > at times. > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iEYEARECAAYFAkou4vEACgkQF9H43UytGiZd2ACgv0bdGz7m1riZqHd4pNgJPHWX > pCsAnR8C+DoKfHFoZWiTSqxeGEJDQmva > =Ye1R > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- Are your computers new enough to handle IRC well? Is this the sort of communication for which we need to PGP sign? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Tue Jun 9 20:27:23 2009 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 21:27:23 -0400 Subject: Remembering the true* first portable computer The Register In-Reply-To: References: <4A2D86F7.6090604@snarc.net> <4A2D74F1.2090104@sbcglobal.net> <4A2D86F7.6090604@snarc.net> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20090609211657.014b56e0@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that William Donzelli may have mentioned these words: > > DYSEAC was running in 1954. It was mounted in an Army truck. Not quite a > > Osborne, but it was the first time a modern, digital computer was > > specifically designed for mobility. > >Do not be surprised if the crypto guys had something before that. But >they ain't talking... Prolly due to security clearances... Despite the fact that dollars to doughnuts it could prolly be hacked in about 12 seconds flat nowadays, there's still things I can be jailed for life (or worse... but I doubt it would come to that ;-) under the charge of treason if I disclosed in public, AFAIK. In class where I learned about these items I'm not telling you about, we weren't allowed to take any form of physical notes - things had to be committed to memory (mammalian only, not electronic. ;-). Last time I checked (with military personnel with correct security clearance) it was still classified, but that was at least a decade ago. Not to worry - of what I speak is on topic - it was my first taste of papertape after all... and that's all I'll say. ;-) Now back to drinking Tequila & looking for the black helicopters on the horizon... "Merch" -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers _??_ zmerch at 30below.com (?||?) If at first you don't succeed, nuclear warhead _)(_ disarmament should *not* be your first career choice. From doug at stillhq.com Tue Jun 9 20:49:56 2009 From: doug at stillhq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 11:49:56 +1000 Subject: IRC channel? In-Reply-To: <20090609181001.M33811@shell.lmi.net> References: <4A2EE2F2.7080305@gmail.com> <20090609181001.M33811@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4A2F1144.4080000@stillhq.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 9 Jun 2009, Kirn Gill wrote: > >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >> Hash: SHA1 >> Do we have an IRC channel? >> I'd really like to know. The mailing list seems like a clumsy medium >> at times. >> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >> Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32) >> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org >> >> iEYEARECAAYFAkou4vEACgkQF9H43UytGiZd2ACgv0bdGz7m1riZqHd4pNgJPHWX >> pCsAnR8C+DoKfHFoZWiTSqxeGEJDQmva >> =Ye1R >> -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- >> > > Are your computers new enough to handle IRC well? > > Is this the sort of communication for which we need to PGP sign? > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > I have just loaded up an IRC client, and am watching the channel - it is very quiet But on the subject of PGP signatures - I like it - it gives me additional random characters to use as passwords in the future - Now I just need somewhere safe to store the little sticky yellow paper with the newest password on it! From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue Jun 9 20:58:11 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 22:58:11 -0300 Subject: IRC channel? References: <4A2EE2F2.7080305@gmail.com> <20090609181001.M33811@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <178a01c9e96f$251e8a90$af5419bb@desktaba> >> Do we have an IRC channel? This seems a nice idea :D From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 9 21:12:43 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 22:12:43 -0400 Subject: IRC channel? In-Reply-To: <20090609181001.M33811@shell.lmi.net> References: <4A2EE2F2.7080305@gmail.com> <20090609181001.M33811@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <925A798B-4285-4B6F-90CE-21A82D4C35F4@neurotica.com> On Jun 9, 2009, at 9:11 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Are your computers new enough to handle IRC well? One doesn't need much at all to handle IRC. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 9 21:14:59 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 19:14:59 -0700 Subject: IRC channel? In-Reply-To: <4A2EE2F2.7080305@gmail.com> References: <4A2EE2F2.7080305@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A2EB4B3.5120.2B693969@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Jun 2009 at 18:32, Kirn Gill wrote: > Do we have an IRC channel? Is International Resistor Corp. still in business? I had no idea... --Chuck From dbetz at xlisper.com Tue Jun 9 21:21:25 2009 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 22:21:25 -0400 Subject: Atari 800xl Super Video 2.1 mod Message-ID: <1DBDCF32-00D9-4700-B066-0482DAA0F5DC@xlisper.com> I recently acquired an Atari 800xl and would like to apply the Super Video 2.1 mod to get better video but have been unable to locate the description of how to do it anywhere on the web. I've done a google search and found many links to it but they all led to dead ends. Can someone point me to the article describing this mod? Thanks, David Betz From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 21:31:30 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 22:31:30 -0400 Subject: Remembering the true* first portable computer The Register In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20090609211657.014b56e0@mail.30below.com> References: <4A2D74F1.2090104@sbcglobal.net> <4A2D86F7.6090604@snarc.net> <5.1.0.14.2.20090609211657.014b56e0@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: > Prolly due to security clearances... Despite the fact that dollars to > doughnuts it could prolly be hacked in about 12 seconds flat nowadays, That is actually not the point to keeping this stuff secret. The point is that we want the Other Guys to make all the dumb mistakes we made - great for tracking progress of Their technology. > In class where I learned about these items I'm not telling you about, we > weren't allowed to take any form of physical notes - things had to be > committed to memory (mammalian only, not electronic. ;-). > > Last time I checked (with military personnel with correct security > clearance) it was still classified, but that was at least a decade ago. We will probably all be dead when it gets declassified completely. There are actually some technologies over 100 years old that are still classified. At least you asked about the current classification. One of the problems I am always run up against talking to electronics oldtimers is the nobody tells them when stuff if declassified, so they shut up tight until I can convince them that it is safe to talk (most often by showing a tech manual with a big declassification stamp on it). In any case - and I know I probably will run into the exact same problem right here and now - but you can at least say what system you worked on (TSEC/KWT-mumblefoo). The model numbers of the equipments, and even now some fuzzy pictures of some models, is declassified, with the exception of the very latest stuff. -- Will From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Jun 9 21:45:07 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 19:45:07 -0700 Subject: Who's dead? (was RE: UNIX V7) Message-ID: WHO died? Let's see, what operating systems have I used in the past year? VMS RT-11 CP/M Tops-10 Tops-20 RSX-11 OS-8 MVS too many versions of Unix to count (including v6, which did NOT include a screen editor!) several 'tiny OS' products MSDOS ...and several versions of Windows, including Win95, W2K, WinXP, WinCE and that Vista 'thing' Your definition of "from way back" seems somewhat limited... by the way, did you realize that VMS is still a supported OS, more than thirty years after its introduction? Further, your reluctance to use non-screen-oriented editors is, shall we say, 'bad juju' in this community. While I certainly prefer a screen editor such as vi (and not such as EMACS), I can easily do ed or TECO as needed, because I MUST in order to work with truly vintage systems. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Kirn Gill [segin2005 at gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 2:10 PM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: UNIX V7 -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 John Floren wrote: > On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 12:54 PM, Ethan Dicks > wrote: >> On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 3:31 PM, Kirn Gill >> wrote: >>> I need a screen editor. > > ed /is/ the standard editor > > When all else fails It might seem odd, but I don't know how to use 'ed'. I kinda know 'ex' due to the fact 'vi' is 'ex' turned from a line editor to a screen editor. Most of what I know about computers from way back is mostly limited to UNIX (and that's only because UNIX didn't die like the other OSes.) -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkouz7kACgkQF9H43UytGibXwACeKbEwHdRFbJWR2GEQTLhT6sai CNEAn3lCmbG1dAaI0H+XvdP6eDeSSYIa =JS57 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From dbetz at xlisper.com Tue Jun 9 21:54:27 2009 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 22:54:27 -0400 Subject: Atari 800xl Super Video 2.1 mod (and other video mods) In-Reply-To: <1DBDCF32-00D9-4700-B066-0482DAA0F5DC@xlisper.com> References: <1DBDCF32-00D9-4700-B066-0482DAA0F5DC@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <725511F2-87D0-46E5-B99E-7C8EEDA9458C@xlisper.com> On Jun 9, 2009, at 10:21 PM, David Betz wrote: > I recently acquired an Atari 800xl and would like to apply the Super > Video 2.1 mod to get better video but have been unable to locate the > description of how to do it anywhere on the web. I've done a google > search and found many links to it but they all led to dead ends. Can > someone point me to the article describing this mod? Okay, I finally managed to find the Super Video 2.1 instructions but now find that they seem to be in addition to the Super Video 2.0 mods rather than a newer version of them. I also find that some people recommend against making them but instead suggest some simpler mods to improve the 800xl video. Has anyone here had any experience with trying to improve the video output of the 800xl? What do you recommend? I'd like to at least enable the S-video output. Thanks, David From segin2005 at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 21:58:26 2009 From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Kirn Gill) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 22:58:26 -0400 Subject: UNIX V7 In-Reply-To: <06653695-D603-4C24-9B5A-B678715B9B69@neurotica.com> References: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net>, , <7d3530220906091349kd5cc64dkc36ed0d7906a1ddb@mail.gmail.com> <4A2E76B3.20345.2A770DBF@cclist.sydex.com> <4A2EDCD2.1060208@stillhq.com> <06653695-D603-4C24-9B5A-B678715B9B69@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4A2F2152.8060808@gmail.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jun 9, 2009, at 6:06 PM, Doug Jackson wrote: >> Years ago I used to repair PC's (Back when you had to type stuff to >> do things, and when the 8087 was just awesome...) My editor of >> choice was the MSDOS EDLIN tool. Without fail, every client who >> watched me working asked why I didn't use QEDIT34 or ExtraED98 or >> "InsertAwesomeEditorNameHere", to which I would always reply - 'you >> may have "InsertAwesomeEditorNameHere", but I can never guarantee >> the next client will have it, so I got good at using the standard >> editor! > > I just carried around a copy of Turbo Pascal 3.0 on a floppy. > > -Dave > I carry around a copy of Vim on a flash drive. Trust me, it's a very handy diagnostic. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkovIVIACgkQF9H43UytGibPbACeIpJ9Khp2wgj/aENW6PNL4VEb SaAAn1abaFqdbCyo1ktW0+oZfdi1RVCk =HlFa -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 9 22:01:24 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 23:01:24 -0400 Subject: Who's dead? (was RE: UNIX V7) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <697B813B-830F-4796-9A8C-93C55417F0C3@neurotica.com> On Jun 9, 2009, at 10:45 PM, Ian King wrote: > Your definition of "from way back" seems somewhat limited... by the > way, did you realize that VMS is still a supported OS, more than > thirty years after its introduction? Not only supported, but still under very active development! > Further, your reluctance to use non-screen-oriented editors is, > shall we say, 'bad juju' in this community. While I certainly > prefer a screen editor such as vi (and not such as EMACS), I can > easily do ed or TECO as needed, because I MUST in order to work > with truly vintage systems. -- Ian Please cut the guy some slack, Ian. The OP was Kirn, who is 19. His idea of "way back" is pretty different from yours or mine. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 9 22:06:59 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 23:06:59 -0400 Subject: UNIX V7 In-Reply-To: References: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net> <7d3530220906091349kd5cc64dkc36ed0d7906a1ddb@mail.gmail.com> <4A2E76B3.20345.2A770DBF@cclist.sydex.com> <4A2EDCD2.1060208@stillhq.com> <06653695-D603-4C24-9B5A-B678715B9B69@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Jun 9, 2009, at 6:57 PM, Mark Davidson wrote: >>> Years ago I used to repair PC's (Back when you had to type stuff >>> to do >>> things, and when the 8087 was just awesome...) My editor of >>> choice was the >>> MSDOS EDLIN tool. Without fail, every client who watched me >>> working asked >>> why I didn't use QEDIT34 or ExtraED98 or >>> "InsertAwesomeEditorNameHere", to >>> which I would always reply - 'you may have >>> "InsertAwesomeEditorNameHere", >>> but I can never guarantee the next client will have it, so I got >>> good at >>> using the standard editor! >> >> I just carried around a copy of Turbo Pascal 3.0 on a floppy. > > I should have mentioned that, apparently, the $250 price for Epsilon > includes executables for every OS they support (Windows, Linux, Mac OS > X, FreeBSD, OS/2, DOS)... not a bad deal, I suppose. :) Wow, I had no idea that they'd ported it to so many platforms. Neat! WAY overpriced, though. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From segin2005 at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 22:08:34 2009 From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Kirn Gill) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 23:08:34 -0400 Subject: IRC channel? In-Reply-To: <20090609181001.M33811@shell.lmi.net> References: <4A2EE2F2.7080305@gmail.com> <20090609181001.M33811@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4A2F23B2.6080300@gmail.com> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 9 Jun 2009, Kirn Gill wrote: > Are your computers new enough to handle IRC well? If it has TELNET, it can IRC. So, since they're newer than ENIAC, I hope so. $ telnet irc.freenode.net 6667 USER segin :segin NICK segin PRIVMSG NickServ :IDENTIFY ********** JOIN #classiccmp PRIVMSG #classiccmp :hi folks, how ya'll doin'? Give it a whirl on anything you have that is Internet-connected. Just be warned that you might want to read up on the IRC protocol. > Is this the sort of communication for which we need to PGP sign? I PGP sign everything, though if I am sending HTML or anything else that would be MIME/MultiPart, I use PGP/MIME and sign it as an attachment. Otherwise it's inline. > - Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (MingW32) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iEYEARECAAYFAkovI7IACgkQF9H43UytGiYM3gCeMTNOUNiDYZ3oFiaKK0eyvEuE 8QgAn0aLRg8n1jk1XbAmh2Oa4pSLfUVu =trxg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 22:24:31 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 23:24:31 -0400 Subject: Who's dead? (was RE: UNIX V7) In-Reply-To: <697B813B-830F-4796-9A8C-93C55417F0C3@neurotica.com> References: <697B813B-830F-4796-9A8C-93C55417F0C3@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > ?Not only supported, but still under very active development! It is still a sinking ship, unfortunately. -- Will From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Jun 9 22:28:38 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 20:28:38 -0700 Subject: Who's dead? (was RE: UNIX V7) In-Reply-To: <697B813B-830F-4796-9A8C-93C55417F0C3@neurotica.com> References: <697B813B-830F-4796-9A8C-93C55417F0C3@neurotica.com> Message-ID: >-----Original Message----- >From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire >Sent: Tuesday, June 09, 2009 8:01 PM >To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >Subject: Re: Who's dead? (was RE: UNIX V7) > >On Jun 9, 2009, at 10:45 PM, Ian King wrote: >> Your definition of "from way back" seems somewhat limited... by the >> way, did you realize that VMS is still a supported OS, more than >> thirty years after its introduction? > > Not only supported, but still under very active development! > >> Further, your reluctance to use non-screen-oriented editors is, >> shall we say, 'bad juju' in this community. While I certainly >> prefer a screen editor such as vi (and not such as EMACS), I can >> easily do ed or TECO as needed, because I MUST in order to work >> with truly vintage systems. -- Ian > > Please cut the guy some slack, Ian. The OP was Kirn, who is 19. >His idea of "way back" is pretty different from yours or mine. > > -Dave > Dave, in truth I spent no little time writing a less harsh response than I might have, but I feel it is necessary to address his dismissive attitude toward the realities of vintage systems and their software, if he wants to play in this pool. It's not the lack of knowledge - that can be corrected, as I experience every day in my own life - but what I perceive as the attitude that "it's not worth knowing" that harshes my mellow. -- Ian From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 9 22:32:10 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 23:32:10 -0400 Subject: Who's dead? (was RE: UNIX V7) In-Reply-To: References: <697B813B-830F-4796-9A8C-93C55417F0C3@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Jun 9, 2009, at 11:24 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Not only supported, but still under very active development! > > It is still a sinking ship, unfortunately. Why is that? Because it's not Windows? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From brianlanning at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 22:33:40 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 22:33:40 -0500 Subject: Interesting IBM 5150... or something Message-ID: <6dbe3c380906092033n3dfb48f9k6c07c7a59b7beb05@mail.gmail.com> I've never heard of this. Looks even more tank-like than the 5150. Look at the backplane where the cables go in. http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-IBM-Tempest-Computer-for-Classified-work_W0QQitemZ190313579086QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2c4f92c24e&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A10|66%3A2|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A0|293%3A4|294%3A50 From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 22:42:34 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 23:42:34 -0400 Subject: Who's dead? (was RE: UNIX V7) In-Reply-To: References: <697B813B-830F-4796-9A8C-93C55417F0C3@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > ?Why is that? ?Because it's not Windows? Mostly, yes. Head out of the sand, man. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 22:45:42 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 23:45:42 -0400 Subject: Interesting IBM 5150... or something In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380906092033n3dfb48f9k6c07c7a59b7beb05@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380906092033n3dfb48f9k6c07c7a59b7beb05@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > I've never heard of this. ?Looks even more tank-like than the 5150. > Look at the backplane where the cables go in. A whole bunch of these came out of surplus maybe ten years ago. I would like to know what the IBM mpdel number is. -- Will From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Jun 9 22:46:20 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 23:46:20 -0400 Subject: Who's dead? (was RE: UNIX V7) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200906092346.20414.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 09 June 2009, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jun 9, 2009, at 11:24 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > >> Not only supported, but still under very active development! > > > > It is still a sinking ship, unfortunately. > > Why is that? Because it's not Windows? Probably because its usage is going down over time? I can't be completely sure, but I'm willing to bet that if HP ported it to x86/amd64 instead of ia64, it would have had a better chance of holding ground. There are things other than Windows that aren't "sinking ships." Probably all of them run on (or at least support) amd64 instruction-set processors. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Tue Jun 9 22:50:25 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 20:50:25 -0700 Subject: Who's dead? (was RE: UNIX V7) In-Reply-To: References: <697B813B-830F-4796-9A8C-93C55417F0C3@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4A2F2D81.4000500@mail.msu.edu> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jun 9, 2009, at 11:24 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >>> Not only supported, but still under very active development! >> >> It is still a sinking ship, unfortunately. > > Why is that? Because it's not Windows? It's also not UNIX (which killed off its share of OSes back in the day...) Josh > > -Dave > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 9 22:53:02 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 23:53:02 -0400 Subject: Who's dead? (was RE: UNIX V7) In-Reply-To: References: <697B813B-830F-4796-9A8C-93C55417F0C3@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Jun 9, 2009, at 11:42 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Why is that? Because it's not Windows? > > Mostly, yes. > > Head out of the sand, man. I could say the same to you. ;) I think it's probably best that we end this conversation here. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Tue Jun 9 22:53:04 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 20:53:04 -0700 Subject: (Resending) Re: Further 11/40 unibus questions... Message-ID: <4A2F2E20.8040106@mail.msu.edu> Resending this, as it seems to have not made it to the list for whatever reason. (Sorry if this ends up in people's mailboxes twice...) Tony Duell wrote: >>> Then I'd look at all the Unibus signals both with the terminator out >>> (they will still be terminated by the resistors at at the CPU end -- >>> IIRC on an 11/40 these are on the Unibus jumper between the CPU and >>> first expansion backplane) and with it fitted. I would guess >>> something is changing state, let's find out what. >>> >> I will start looking at this tonight (assuming I have the time >> tonight :)). Thanks. >> > > OK, let us know how you get on :-) > > -tony > Ok, finally stopped being distracted by other shiny objects for long enough to do some more fiddling with the 11/40. And of course, instead of hooking up the logic analyzer, I decided to play around with the Console SLU/LTC board. Because I evidently don't follow suggestions well. But this has a good ending, sort of. Maybe. So the SLU was unresponsive no matter what I did. Tried it at 9600 baud, no go. Dialed it down to 300, no dice. Checked the continuity of the dip switches, of which there are approximately 500. No problems there. Checked, and double-checked the wiring on the serial cable I built. No go. Stole the cable from my 8/e... still no good. So I moved it out of the 9th slot on the processor backplane and into the first slot on Unibus backplane. (And put a grant card in the 9th slot...) And hey, it works. Toggled in a short "echo" program and what I type on the terminal keyboard is echoed back, at a blistering 300 baud. So... clearly there's something wrong with the SPC slot on the processor backplane. A couple more questions: 1) Is the NPG grant on the unibus slot on the processor backplane (slot 9) supposed to be connected to the NPG grants on the Unibus expansion? That is -- right now if I set my DMM to continuity mode and put one probe on CA1 on the first slot of the unibus expansion, and the other on CB1 on the last slot of the unibus expansion, since all NPG grant jumpers are in place, the DMM shows the circuit as closed. This is as I'd expect. However, if I move the probe from CA1 on the first slot of the expansion to CA1 on slot 9 of the processor backplane, the circuit is then open. I'm guessing this is not correct. (There is currently an NPG jumper installed on slot 9.) 2) Where is the +15V to the processor backplane supposed to be connected? (I suspect this may be the reason the SLU won't function in slot 9...). Right now it's plugged into pin CV1 on slot 9 (if I'm reading the Unibus pin chart right :)) but the docs I have found say this should be ACLO_L... Thanks as always... Josh From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 9 22:55:44 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 23:55:44 -0400 Subject: Who's dead? (was RE: UNIX V7) In-Reply-To: References: <697B813B-830F-4796-9A8C-93C55417F0C3@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <08E6E831-C9AE-4197-A024-9E926CAD6CB1@neurotica.com> On Jun 9, 2009, at 11:28 PM, Ian King wrote: >>> Further, your reluctance to use non-screen-oriented editors is, >>> shall we say, 'bad juju' in this community. While I certainly >>> prefer a screen editor such as vi (and not such as EMACS), I can >>> easily do ed or TECO as needed, because I MUST in order to work >>> with truly vintage systems. -- Ian >> >> Please cut the guy some slack, Ian. The OP was Kirn, who is 19. >> His idea of "way back" is pretty different from yours or mine. >> > Dave, in truth I spent no little time writing a less harsh response > than I might have, but I feel it is necessary to address his > dismissive attitude toward the realities of vintage systems and > their software, if he wants to play in this pool. It's not the > lack of knowledge - that can be corrected, as I experience every > day in my own life - but what I perceive as the attitude that "it's > not worth knowing" that harshes my mellow. -- Ian I don't think it's anything to worry about. Most guys his age think "vintage computer" means a Pentium-4 that's clocked at less than 2GHz. I've talked to him; he is clueful. He is also local to me, and I expect I'll be setting him up with some good stuff. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From starbase89 at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 22:53:20 2009 From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 23:53:20 -0400 Subject: Interesting IBM 5150... or something In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380906092033n3dfb48f9k6c07c7a59b7beb05@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380906092033n3dfb48f9k6c07c7a59b7beb05@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2b1f1f550906092053t12dfcdcbi7a83bfadcd4bfb88@mail.gmail.com> Looks like an AT On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 11:33 PM, Brian Lanning wrote: > I've never heard of this. Looks even more tank-like than the 5150. > Look at the backplane where the cables go in. > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-IBM-Tempest-Computer-for-Classified-work_W0QQitemZ190313579086QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item2c4f92c24e&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=65%3A10|66%3A2|39%3A1|240%3A1318|301%3A0|293%3A4|294%3A50 > From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Jun 9 22:55:55 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 23:55:55 -0400 Subject: Who's dead? (was RE: UNIX V7) In-Reply-To: <200906092346.20414.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200906092346.20414.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200906092355.55514.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 09 June 2009, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Tuesday 09 June 2009, Dave McGuire wrote: > > On Jun 9, 2009, at 11:24 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > > >> Not only supported, but still under very active development! > > > > > > It is still a sinking ship, unfortunately. > > > > Why is that? Because it's not Windows? > > Probably because its usage is going down over time? I can't be > completely sure, but I'm willing to bet that if HP ported it to > x86/amd64 instead of ia64, it would have had a better chance of > holding ground. > > There are things other than Windows that aren't "sinking ships." > Probably all of them run on (or at least support) amd64 > instruction-set processors. Sigh, except for "embedded" stuff, anyways. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jun 9 23:06:24 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 21:06:24 -0700 Subject: Who's dead? (was RE: UNIX V7) In-Reply-To: References: <697B813B-830F-4796-9A8C-93C55417F0C3@neurotica.com> Message-ID: At 11:32 PM -0400 6/9/09, Dave McGuire wrote: >On Jun 9, 2009, at 11:24 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >>> Not only supported, but still under very active development! >> >>It is still a sinking ship, unfortunately. > > Why is that? Because it's not Windows? No, because a sizable portion of the Development group's last day working was last Friday. :-( I'm honestly not sure who is left. HP in their infinite lack of wisdom has chosen to do away with highly experienced members of the VMS Development teams and outsource their jobs to India. This does not bode well for VMS. As much as it pains me to say this, after last Friday I have to question just how active the development of VMS is. :-( Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From brianlanning at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 23:24:15 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 23:24:15 -0500 Subject: Interesting IBM 5150... or something In-Reply-To: <2b1f1f550906092053t12dfcdcbi7a83bfadcd4bfb88@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380906092033n3dfb48f9k6c07c7a59b7beb05@mail.gmail.com> <2b1f1f550906092053t12dfcdcbi7a83bfadcd4bfb88@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380906092124u33916297u6342fce6cfa2081a@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 10:53 PM, Joe Giliberti wrote: > Looks like an AT It has 3 half-height drive bay openings on the front. The AT had two, but an internal HH 5.25" bay where that bottom drive is (iirc). And the back of the case is totally different. brian From curt at atarimuseum.com Tue Jun 9 23:39:09 2009 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 00:39:09 -0400 Subject: Atari 800xl Super Video 2.1 mod In-Reply-To: <1DBDCF32-00D9-4700-B066-0482DAA0F5DC@xlisper.com> References: <1DBDCF32-00D9-4700-B066-0482DAA0F5DC@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <4A2F38ED.2040604@atarimuseum.com> This will be of help: http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=41580 Curt David Betz wrote: > I recently acquired an Atari 800xl and would like to apply the Super > Video 2.1 mod to get better video but have been unable to locate the > description of how to do it anywhere on the web. I've done a google > search and found many links to it but they all led to dead ends. Can > someone point me to the article describing this mod? > > Thanks, > David Betz > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Jun 9 16:38:12 2009 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 17:38:12 -0400 Subject: Transistor Substitution Message-ID: <0KKZ008F8QP1CHH8@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Transistor Substitution > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 18:53:39 +0100 (BST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> >> >> Okay: I admit it, I am sometimes pig-ignorant about basic hardware >> questions. :/ >> >> I have a couple of DEC machines which I need to replace a few components >> on, and also stock up spares of others. With the transistors and diodes, >> however, I often can't find a direct replacement - and don't know how to >> figure out what a modern substitute is. >> >> For a 2N3009, for example, I can find basic information and a datasheet >> online easily enough - but as for choosing a functional, available >> substitute for it, I'm honestly not even sure where to begin. >> >> Is there a basic resource for determining modern equivalents for older >> transistors and diodes? Can someone helpfully provide me with a clue >> here? :) > >It depends on what the transistor is being used for.. In general >transsitors used in the logic (particulalry low-speed ones, for things >like lamp drivers) and transsitors used in linear PSUs are fairly easy to >substitute. Transsitors used for high energy pulse work (SMPSU choppers, >horizontal output transsitors in monitors) are a lot more critical, and >the data sheet may bot help. > >Basically, you need to get the following right : > >Tpye/polarity (NPN or PNP etc) > >VOltage ratings high enough to stand voltages in the circuit (if the >ratings of the substitute exceed those of the original, you should be OK) > >Current ratings (particularly Ic, collector current). Again, if your >substitute is better than the original it should be OK > >Gain (hfe and all its varients) is not too critical in most classic >computer applications, particularly for switich transiustors which are >driven hard into saturation. But try not to use a transistor of too low >a gain. > >Max frequency (Ft, etc) is something you should look at in logic >transistors, particularly in higher speed circuits, clock oscillators, etc. > >But my experience is if you pick something of the same polarity and >similar characteristics, it'll work in most classic computer circuits >(except for SMPSUs and horizontal output stages). Probaly 99% of >small-signal transistors can be replaced y 2N3904 (NPN) and 2N3906 (PNP) :-) > >Diodes are evem more generic. Most switching diodes can be replaced with >1N4148 :-). For PSU rectiifers in linear PSUs (again, SMPSUs are another >story), choose something with sufficient votlage rating (PIV -- peak >inverse votlage) (2*sqrt(2)*output voltage should be safe, say 3 times the >output voltage or more) and sufficient current rating (If, forward current). >When there are similar diodes of different PIV ratings, I normally buy >the highest. It's not much more expensive, and I'm on the side of safety. > >-tony Way too much information.. What he needs to know is what can he buy now that should work to replace a 2n3009? Answer: the 2N2222A (metal can not the plastic PN2222) has the same or close enough FT, Ic and breakdown voltages. It would be my first choice if I could not purchase/salvage the exact part. Also the 2n2222A is available and usually cheap. I buy them usually in for groups of 25 for about $0.08US each. DEC used a lot of 2n2907, 2n2905. 2n2219, 2n3553 and 2n2222A equivilents under different marking schemes. These parts are still very common. To assure the substitution it would help to know how that 2n3009 was used but from working on a lot of DEC gear the 2n2222 is a good bet. The only case where they type transistor is a bit fussy is some of the faster flip chip cards (logic) and SMPS. FYI: Older DEC machines like straight-8 and friends used a lot fo the ceramic epoxy parts similar to the 2n3638 and 2n3563. Those are ceramic headers with a block of epoxy covering the die and are prone to popping the epoxy and the symptom works when cold or mechanically intermittent. Allison From iamvirtual at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 16:45:16 2009 From: iamvirtual at gmail.com (B M) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 15:45:16 -0600 Subject: loading disk image on PDP-11 Message-ID: <2645f9870906091445w45a888e3q262c9e3c2c52d394@mail.gmail.com> Dennis Boone drb at msu.edu wrote: > > "I was thinking of using vtserver to transfer the image over a serial > > line, but the 'copy' program is not compatible with my PDP-11/05 (it > > uses the 'mul' and 'div' instructions which is not available on my > > PDP-11/10)." > > I haven't exhaustively searched for such instructions, but a sample > multiplication found in the C source didn't turn into a mul > instruction. You sure this is the cause? > > De Looking at the source for vtserver v2.3, the srt0.s file contains the 'mul' instructions. The copy program is aware of the I&D space. It appears the primary purpose of vtserver is to allow the installation/copy of early Unix versions onto RK05's. The source to vtserver appears to be implemented using the early unix version, so it is not really what I need since I cannot modify it to work on my PDP-11/10. The initial vtboot portion of vtserver does work properly on my PDP-11/10. I am able to have the 'copy' program transferred over to the /10 but the processor halts soon after execution begins. The source for vtboot does look like it should work on most machines. I updated the code slightly to make it position independent. I am thinking I will need to write something that will allow me to transfer the disk image over a serial port. I just don't want to re-invent the wheel ;-) My needs are to take a disk image on a host machine and get it transferred over to a PDP-11 via a serial port to be scribbled onto a RK05 disk. Does anyone know of another tool that can do this? I am aware of the TU58 emulator, but that only helps getting something into memory on the PDP-11, but does not help in getting the data onto the RK05. Thank you so much for the information to date! I really appreciate the pointers and discussion. --barrym From listmail at athenet.net Tue Jun 9 17:15:15 2009 From: listmail at athenet.net (Tom) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 17:15:15 -0500 Subject: Farads (Was: IBM 029 progress In-Reply-To: <20090609105642.Q18866@shell.lmi.net> References: <1244537444.4414.0.camel@elric> <88A1FADA-91E0-4205-942E-D03FC5322C59@microspot.co.uk> <4A2DCA36.2050104@databasics.us> <4A2DEA93.8070205@gmail.com> <1244537444.4414.0.camel@elric> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20090609171028.025c9bd0@localhost> At 11:00 AM 6/9/2009 -0700, you wrote: >> (incidentally, how come MF does not mean Mega Farad) > Since the largest capacitor I have ever heard of is 100 Farads, it > really doesn't seem likely that there will be any confusion. Would a "thunder cloud" be considered a capacitor? If so, how many MF would lightning take? Was "capacitator" ever a valid name? I wonder if Al K has heard this story. When my good friend Don was still alive, he'd tell the story of working for a hospital many decades ago. He'd get calls from med techs and nurses about defibrillators that no longer worked. Some uncluefull person playing with them would stick the business end of the paddles together and rub them around, like he's seen on TV. Problem is, the uncluefull one would then bump the button that discharges the paddles. One time, when someone asked what was wrong with the unit, he mentioned that the big capacitor inside got blowed up when the paddles were discharged into a short circuit. Sure enough, next time she called and forever after, she'd say, Can you fix this defib? I think the cazapiter is fried again. -T ----- 865. The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; all who follow his precepts have good understanding. To him belongs eternal praise. --Ps 111:10 (NIV) --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Jun 9 20:19:21 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 21:19:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Looking for IMI 5018 MFM drive Message-ID: Title says it. Need to replace the drive mechanism in one of my Corvus flat-cable drives. Firmware expects 6-heads and 306 cylinders and gets boggled by anything larger, unfortunately. Could also probably work with Seagate ST419 or Rodime RO203, which are the only other drives I've found with the same geometry. Steve -- From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Wed Jun 10 00:14:28 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 22:14:28 -0700 Subject: Oddest mismatch in hardware for a given purpose... Message-ID: <4A2F4134.7090001@mail.msu.edu> I have in my grubby little hands an Elektronika MK-85 calculator, which externally is a spot-on clone of the Casio FX-700P BASIC programmable calculator. Functionally, it's identical as well, with a few enhancements (pixel-addressable graphics, a Cyrillic character-set, etc) Internally though, they're 100% different -- the processor in the MK-85 is a Russian PDP-11 knockoff. It's not a power-efficient CPU by any means, so to ensure decent battery life the CPU speed is severely limited. Not sure exactly what speed it runs at (anyone out there know?) but the result is by far the slowest calculator I've ever used. Computing the sine of an angle in degrees using the built-in "SIN" function takes anywhere between 2 and 7 seconds by my stopwatch. So the MK-85 takes an otherwise-elegant and useful 16-bit CPU, attaches it to a mere 2K of RAM and 8K of ROM and runs at an insanely low clock speed in order to allow the battery life to be more than a few minutes... I just have to wonder why they decided to go with a PDP-11 clone over, say, a Z80 clone... :). (The BASIC implementation is also incredibly buggy, mostly due to poor argument checking... see http://www.pisi.com.pl/piotr433/mk85mc1e.htm for a cool example of exploiting a bug in INPUT to do machine-language coding, in a way only a contortionist could love...) I just find this machine fascinating, for a number of reasons. A handheld PDP-11! (Sort of.) Anyone else know of examples of odd-duck machines like this, where the hardware is probably not the best choice for the application? (But it's cool anyway?) - Josh From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Jun 10 00:30:11 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 22:30:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Oddest mismatch in hardware for a given purpose... In-Reply-To: <4A2F4134.7090001@mail.msu.edu> References: <4A2F4134.7090001@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Jun 2009, Josh Dersch wrote: > I have in my grubby little hands an Elektronika MK-85 calculator, which > externally is a spot-on clone of the Casio FX-700P BASIC programmable > calculator. Functionally, it's identical as well, with a few enhancements > (pixel-addressable graphics, a Cyrillic character-set, etc) With all the stuff that the Russians did with PDP-11 knockoffs, I wonder what would have happened if DEC took the market of home computers seriously. The UKNC (which to me resembles an MSX), is particularly interesting. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mwichary at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 01:01:43 2009 From: mwichary at gmail.com (Marcin Wichary) Date: Tue, 9 Jun 2009 23:01:43 -0700 Subject: anyone read dealers of lightning? In-Reply-To: References: <4A274C2E.6030705@verizon.net> <4A275CE6.9020103@atarimuseum.com> <4A27602D.4090504@snarc.net> <4A294FFF.8070301@arachelian.com> <001c01c9e7dd$3c680b10$6400a8c0@acerd3c08b49af> Message-ID: <1debc0350906092301p7d06efffkafd230effe93039c@mail.gmail.com> Ars Technica just reviewed and recommendedthe book as a Father?s Day gift: > Tracy Kidder's *Soul of a New Machine* was first published in 1981, so it > may not, at first glance, seem very relevant to today's technology?but it's > important to see where we've been before thinking about where we might be > going. The book chronicles the development of Data General's first 32-bit > minicomputer?and the hackers and young college grads that spent the better > part of a year making it happen in record time. The story, which Kidder > fleshes out with clever character studies of those on the hardware and > software teams (which were often at odds with each other), is oddly similar > to the "90 hours a week and loving it" story of the development of the > Macintosh chronicled in *Revolution in the Valley*. > Contributing writer Chris Foresman believes the tale is still relevant: > "While computers are rarely designed in the manner that the Data General > MV/8000 (aka "Eagle") was," he says, "the long hours, constant stress, and > odd camaraderie are not unlike that experienced in many of today's > technology startups." On Mon, Jun 8, 2009 at 5:20 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > > From: CSquared > > Sent: Sunday, June 07, 2009 7:03 PM > > > I've been following all the comments about Soul with considerable > interest. > > Am I the only one who found it a bit sad? I finally got around to > reading > > it a couple of years ago, and it seemed to me to describe all too > accurately > > what strikes me as the employee abuse that characterized way too much of > the > > engineering development process during that era. > > "during that era"? I saw the same kinds of things 20 years later, and > don't think they've stopped since then. It's something you sign up for, > in expectation of appropriate reward. > -- Marcin Wichary Sr. user experience designer, Google Graphical User Interface gallery >> www.guidebookgallery.org From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jun 10 01:23:06 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 00:23:06 -0600 Subject: Remembering the true* first portable computer The Register In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 09 Jun 2009 22:31:30 -0400. Message-ID: In article , William Donzelli writes: > > Prolly due to security clearances... Despite the fact that dollars to > > doughnuts it could prolly be hacked in about 12 seconds flat nowadays, > > That is actually not the point to keeping this stuff secret. The point > is that we want the Other Guys to make all the dumb mistakes we made - > great for tracking progress of Their technology. I'm hoping they make more mistakes than we did! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From lists at databasics.us Wed Jun 10 01:37:19 2009 From: lists at databasics.us (Warren Wolfe) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 20:37:19 -1000 Subject: PDP 11/73 on the Internet In-Reply-To: <200906070451.n574pAKD014322@floodgap.com> References: <200906070451.n574pAKD014322@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4A2F549F.3050100@databasics.us> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> And no, that's not going to motivate me to write a better editor. I >>> don't know how. If I did, I would have already done it and the holy >>> Emacs vs. Vi war would have been over, both sides having both lost. >>> >> I use both. I guess that makes me a heretic. >> > > No, just a polytheist. > Huh. I was just going to say he was bi...textual. Warren From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 10 01:49:00 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 09 Jun 2009 23:49:00 -0700 Subject: Oddest mismatch in hardware for a given purpose... In-Reply-To: <4A2F4134.7090001@mail.msu.edu> References: <4A2F4134.7090001@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4A2EF4EC.3795.2C640EE9@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Jun 2009 at 22:14, Josh Dersch wrote: > I have in my grubby little hands an Elektronika MK-85 calculator, > which externally is a spot-on clone of the Casio FX-700P BASIC > programmable calculator. Functionally, it's identical as well, with a > few enhancements (pixel-addressable graphics, a Cyrillic > character-set, etc) Very cool, Josh! I've admired the universal application of the Soviet LSI-11 clone chips. Probalbly the one item that represents the height of it all is the MK-87--a pocket-sized calculator: http://rk86.com/frolov/mk-87.htm I have no idea how long the batteries lasted on that one... --Chuck From rodsmallwood at btconnect.com Wed Jun 10 02:03:25 2009 From: rodsmallwood at btconnect.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:03:25 +0100 Subject: Who's dead? (was RE: UNIX V7) In-Reply-To: References: <697B813B-830F-4796-9A8C-93C55417F0C3@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4599C4892C10428FB954F90044896374@EDIConsultingLtd.local> OMG! Really? Short term, short sighted and it will come back and haunt them. Regards Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy Sent: 10 June 2009 05:06 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Who's dead? (was RE: UNIX V7) At 11:32 PM -0400 6/9/09, Dave McGuire wrote: >On Jun 9, 2009, at 11:24 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >>> Not only supported, but still under very active development! >> >>It is still a sinking ship, unfortunately. > > Why is that? Because it's not Windows? No, because a sizable portion of the Development group's last day working was last Friday. :-( I'm honestly not sure who is left. HP in their infinite lack of wisdom has chosen to do away with highly experienced members of the VMS Development teams and outsource their jobs to India. This does not bode well for VMS. As much as it pains me to say this, after last Friday I have to question just how active the development of VMS is. :-( Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From jzg22 at drexel.edu Wed Jun 10 03:00:35 2009 From: jzg22 at drexel.edu (Jonathan Gevaryahu) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 04:00:35 -0400 Subject: IRC channel? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A2F6823.50701@drexel.edu> We have an IRC channel (of sorts): Network: Freenode (irc.freenode.net) Channel: #classiccmp -- Jonathan Gevaryahu jgevaryahu(@t)hotmail(d0t)com jzg22(@t)drexel(d0t)edu From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Jun 10 06:25:06 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 12:25:06 +0100 Subject: Who's dead? (was RE: UNIX V7) In-Reply-To: <200906092346.20414.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200906092346.20414.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <1244633106.5593.11.camel@elric> On Tue, 2009-06-09 at 23:46 -0400, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Tuesday 09 June 2009, Dave McGuire wrote: > > On Jun 9, 2009, at 11:24 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > > >> Not only supported, but still under very active development! > > > > > > It is still a sinking ship, unfortunately. > > > > Why is that? Because it's not Windows? > > Probably because its usage is going down over time? I can't be > completely sure, but I'm willing to bet that if HP ported it to > x86/amd64 instead of ia64, it would have had a better chance of holding > ground. I'm surprised there hasn't been an open-source clone of VMS yet. There's a pretty much functional open-source clone of BeOS, a pretty much functional open-source clone of Windows, and more open-source Unix-alikes than you could shake quite a large stick at. There's even a fairly "early days yet" OS/2 clone - anyone fancy porting it to a PDP11? Maybe I haven't looked hard enough for VMS. Gordon From bdwheele at indiana.edu Wed Jun 10 07:29:36 2009 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:29:36 -0400 Subject: Who's dead? (was RE: UNIX V7) In-Reply-To: <1244633106.5593.11.camel@elric> References: <200906092346.20414.pat@computer-refuge.org> <1244633106.5593.11.camel@elric> Message-ID: <1244636976.29765.2.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> On Wed, 2009-06-10 at 12:25 +0100, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > On Tue, 2009-06-09 at 23:46 -0400, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > On Tuesday 09 June 2009, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > On Jun 9, 2009, at 11:24 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > > > >> Not only supported, but still under very active development! > > > > > > > > It is still a sinking ship, unfortunately. > > > > > > Why is that? Because it's not Windows? > > > > Probably because its usage is going down over time? I can't be > > completely sure, but I'm willing to bet that if HP ported it to > > x86/amd64 instead of ia64, it would have had a better chance of holding > > ground. > > I'm surprised there hasn't been an open-source clone of VMS yet. > There's a pretty much functional open-source clone of BeOS, a pretty > much functional open-source clone of Windows, and more open-source > Unix-alikes than you could shake quite a large stick at. There's even a > fairly "early days yet" OS/2 clone - anyone fancy porting it to a PDP11? > > Maybe I haven't looked hard enough for VMS. > > Gordon > There's FreeVMS at http://www.freevms.net. Its pretty early and its based off of linux, so YMMV. From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jun 10 07:39:00 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 05:39:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Oddest mismatch in hardware for a given purpose... In-Reply-To: <4A2F4134.7090001@mail.msu.edu> from Josh Dersch at "Jun 9, 9 10:14:28 pm" Message-ID: <200906101239.n5ACd0on012018@floodgap.com> > (The BASIC implementation is also incredibly buggy, mostly due to poor > argument checking... see http://www.pisi.com.pl/piotr433/mk85mc1e.htm > for a cool example of exploiting a bug in INPUT to do machine-language > coding, in a way only a contortionist could love...) That is outstanding. This reminds me of the stack-pave trick for writing to Tomy Tutor VDP RAM by exploiting bugs in SCELL and GCELL (although no explicit execution of 9900 assembly ... yet). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- This manual has been carefully for errors to make sure correct. -- classiccmp From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 10 07:45:25 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:45:25 -0400 Subject: Who's dead? (was RE: UNIX V7) In-Reply-To: References: <697B813B-830F-4796-9A8C-93C55417F0C3@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Jun 10, 2009, at 12:06 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>>> Not only supported, but still under very active development! >>> >>> It is still a sinking ship, unfortunately. >> >> Why is that? Because it's not Windows? > > No, because a sizable portion of the Development group's last day > working was last Friday. :-( I'm honestly not sure who is left. > HP in their infinite lack of wisdom has chosen to do away with > highly experienced members of the VMS Development teams and > outsource their jobs to India. This does not bode well for VMS. > As much as it pains me to say this, after last Friday I have to > question just how active the development of VMS is. :-( Oh my, now that's a different matter entirely. (and a reason that has a basis in reality) That is most disturbing. I sincerely hope that someone leaks the last-good source code before the "hey we're cheaper" guys start screwing it up. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 07:47:59 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 07:47:59 -0500 Subject: Oddest mismatch in hardware for a given purpose... In-Reply-To: <4A2F4134.7090001@mail.msu.edu> References: <4A2F4134.7090001@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4A2FAB7F.8080107@gmail.com> Josh Dersch wrote: > Internally though, they're 100% different -- the processor in the MK-85 > is a Russian PDP-11 knockoff. It's not a power-efficient CPU by any > means, so to ensure decent battery life the CPU speed is severely > limited. Not sure exactly what speed it runs at (anyone out there > know?) but the result is by far the slowest calculator I've ever used. That's interesting. Does it have provision for AC input? Just curious if it auto-magically ups the clock speed when not running from the battery, as that would be kinda cool (and an early example of a power-saving mode :-) > (The BASIC implementation is also incredibly buggy, mostly due to poor > argument checking... see http://www.pisi.com.pl/piotr433/mk85mc1e.htm > for a cool example of exploiting a bug in INPUT to do machine-language > coding, in a way only a contortionist could love...) Gah, one of the home micro BASICs did something similar, so you could throw MC in there as a character string and 'trick' the BASIC into executing it by tripping the parser up - but my brain's refusing to tell me which one it was now. > Anyone else know of examples of odd-duck machines like this, where the > hardware is probably not the best choice for the application? Anything ever done using an IBM-compatible PC? > (But it's cool anyway?) Oh. Scratch that, then. ;-) From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 10 07:52:22 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:52:22 -0400 Subject: Who's dead? (was RE: UNIX V7) In-Reply-To: <1244633106.5593.11.camel@elric> References: <200906092346.20414.pat@computer-refuge.org> <1244633106.5593.11.camel@elric> Message-ID: <3B5FBA71-99F9-409D-9BC1-5D8F361841B0@neurotica.com> On Jun 10, 2009, at 7:25 AM, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > I'm surprised there hasn't been an open-source clone of VMS yet. > There's a pretty much functional open-source clone of BeOS, a pretty > much functional open-source clone of Windows, and more open-source > Unix-alikes than you could shake quite a large stick at. There's > even a > fairly "early days yet" OS/2 clone - anyone fancy porting it to a > PDP11? > > Maybe I haven't looked hard enough for VMS. Does anyone remember PC-VMS from Wendin? Better yet, does anyone have a copy? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 10 08:07:31 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 09:07:31 -0400 Subject: Oddest mismatch in hardware for a given purpose... In-Reply-To: <4A2FAB7F.8080107@gmail.com> References: <4A2F4134.7090001@mail.msu.edu> <4A2FAB7F.8080107@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Jun 10, 2009, at 8:47 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: >> (The BASIC implementation is also incredibly buggy, mostly due to >> poor argument checking... see http://www.pisi.com.pl/piotr433/ >> mk85mc1e.htm for a cool example of exploiting a bug in INPUT to do >> machine-language coding, in a way only a contortionist could love...) > > Gah, one of the home micro BASICs did something similar, so you > could throw MC in there as a character string and 'trick' the BASIC > into executing it by tripping the parser up - but my brain's > refusing to tell me which one it was now. This is a pretty common trick on the ZX81/TS-1000. You'd embed machine code into a REM statement at the top of a program, as a string of characters. It was a real bitch to enter that stuff from magazines. :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From redodd at comcast.net Wed Jun 10 08:08:13 2009 From: redodd at comcast.net (Ralph E. Dodd) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 09:08:13 -0400 Subject: Atari 800xl Super Video 2.1 mod (and other video mods) Message-ID: <7F8BA525012F4DD3A8929DF297EB350E@thisecb16ac7bc> Subject: Re: Atari 800xl Super Video 2.1 mod (and other video mods) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <725511F2-87D0-46E5-B99E-7C8EEDA9458C at xlisper.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes On Jun 9, 2009, at 10:21 PM, David Betz wrote: > I recently acquired an Atari 800xl and would like to apply the Super > Video 2.1 mod to get better video but have been unable to locate the > description of how to do it anywhere on the web. I've done a google > search and found many links to it but they all led to dead ends. Can > someone point me to the article describing this mod? >Okay, I finally managed to find the Super Video 2.1 instructions but >now find that they seem to be in addition to the Super Video 2.0 mods >rather than a newer version of them. I also find that some people >recommend against making them but instead suggest some simpler mods to >improve the 800xl video. Has anyone here had any experience with >trying to improve the video output of the 800xl? What do you >recommend? I'd like to at least enable the S-video output. David, I've done the Super Video 2.0 & 2.1 mods about 5 times now and it always works perfectly. My brother has a 52" Samsung LCD and the picture is unbelievable! The S-video output is perfect. We had an Atari party and everyone wanted to know why the picture was so flawless. I have no experience with the other mods, but I highly recommend the 2.0 & 2.1 mods. Here's a link. http://www.wolfpup.net/atarimods/supervid.html Good luck and have fun. Ralph From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 08:14:45 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 09:14:45 -0400 Subject: Who's dead? (was RE: UNIX V7) In-Reply-To: <4599C4892C10428FB954F90044896374@EDIConsultingLtd.local> References: <697B813B-830F-4796-9A8C-93C55417F0C3@neurotica.com> <4599C4892C10428FB954F90044896374@EDIConsultingLtd.local> Message-ID: > Short term, short sighted and it will come back and haunt them. In reality, probably not. Like the waning days of Alpha, the highly experienced people have already jumped ship years ago. What is (was) left is a mere shell of what was. At the June MIT Flea I will ask around and get the true story, as there are some relatively high ranking DECheads that attend. -- Will From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jun 10 08:26:55 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 06:26:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Oddest mismatch in hardware for a given purpose... In-Reply-To: from Dave McGuire at "Jun 10, 9 09:07:31 am" Message-ID: <200906101326.n5ADQtmi015936@floodgap.com> > >> (The BASIC implementation is also incredibly buggy, mostly due to > >> poor argument checking... see http://www.pisi.com.pl/piotr433/ > >> mk85mc1e.htm for a cool example of exploiting a bug in INPUT to do > >> machine-language coding, in a way only a contortionist could love...) > > > > Gah, one of the home micro BASICs did something similar, so you > > could throw MC in there as a character string and 'trick' the BASIC > > into executing it by tripping the parser up - but my brain's > > refusing to tell me which one it was now. > > This is a pretty common trick on the ZX81/TS-1000. You'd embed > machine code into a REM statement at the top of a program, as a > string of characters. It was a real bitch to enter that stuff from > magazines. :-) Right, you could do this on a C64 also and probably many machines, but this was just a convenient means of storage -- execution of arbitrary ML was still permitted by the interpreter. The MK-85 hack is noteworthy because it allows you to run stuff on the CPU even though the BASIC supposedly doesn't let you (no CALL, SYS, USR(), etc). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The son becomes the father, the father becomes the son, the uncle has a beer. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 10 08:33:08 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 09:33:08 -0400 Subject: Oddest mismatch in hardware for a given purpose... In-Reply-To: <200906101326.n5ADQtmi015936@floodgap.com> References: <200906101326.n5ADQtmi015936@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <69DE4FA1-D5D9-4AA0-A623-D76D40E3A388@neurotica.com> On Jun 10, 2009, at 9:26 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>>> (The BASIC implementation is also incredibly buggy, mostly due to >>>> poor argument checking... see http://www.pisi.com.pl/piotr433/ >>>> mk85mc1e.htm for a cool example of exploiting a bug in INPUT to do >>>> machine-language coding, in a way only a contortionist could >>>> love...) >>> >>> Gah, one of the home micro BASICs did something similar, so you >>> could throw MC in there as a character string and 'trick' the BASIC >>> into executing it by tripping the parser up - but my brain's >>> refusing to tell me which one it was now. >> >> This is a pretty common trick on the ZX81/TS-1000. You'd embed >> machine code into a REM statement at the top of a program, as a >> string of characters. It was a real bitch to enter that stuff from >> magazines. :-) > > Right, you could do this on a C64 also and probably many machines, > but this > was just a convenient means of storage -- execution of arbitrary ML > was > still permitted by the interpreter. The MK-85 hack is noteworthy > because it > allows you to run stuff on the CPU even though the BASIC supposedly > doesn't > let you (no CALL, SYS, USR(), etc). OH! Oh yes, I see what you mean. Different trick entirely. Very cool. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Wed Jun 10 08:30:54 2009 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:30:54 -0500 Subject: IRC channel? In-Reply-To: <4A2F6823.50701@drexel.edu> References: <4A2F6823.50701@drexel.edu> Message-ID: <4A2FB58E.10203@brutman.com> On of the applications I've written to exercise my TCP/IP code for DOS is an IRC client: Requirements: - Hardware: 8088 class with 192 to 256K of RAM - Display: All of the classics - OS: DOS 3.3 or better. (I tested once with 2.1) - Ethernet: something with a packet driver Besides physical hardware, it works in DosBox if you get the build with NE2000 emulation. Features: - TCP/IP is built in. Just provide the packet driver - Backscroll buffer, logging, timestamps, ... - Runs well on the slowest hardware Go here for more details: http://www.brutman.com/mTCP/IRCjr.html Yes, it's a shameless plug. But I like using a classic interface when I talk about vintage machines, so this is the perfect IRC client for me. And the more people that use it, the more testing I get on the TCP/IP part. Regards, Mike From tshoppa at wmata.com Wed Jun 10 08:33:52 2009 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 09:33:52 -0400 Subject: Oddest mismatch in hardware for a given purpose... Message-ID: Josh writes: ? the processor in the MK-85 ? is a Russian PDP-11 knockoff. It's not a power-efficient CPU by any ? means, The joke in the cold war era was this: A Russian scientist shows up at a international conference with his amazing whiz-bang wrist computer. It has word processing, E-mail, advanced calculations, etc., all built-in. Every attendee comes by and Expresses complete amazement. At the end of the day when it's time to pack up, the Russian scientist asks "could someone help Me with my suitcase?" One, two, three others come to help him but are barely able to move The suitcase. They ask "what do you have in here that could be so heavy?" The answer: "It's the power supply for my wrist computer". Tim. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 09:21:38 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:21:38 -0400 Subject: Transistor Substitution In-Reply-To: <0KKZ008F8QP1CHH8@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0KKZ008F8QP1CHH8@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 5:38 PM, Allison wrote: > Way too much information.. ?What he needs to know is what can he buy now that > should work to replace a 2n3009? I could use that info, too, since I also have older DEC equipment that uses the 2N3009. > Answer: the 2N2222A (metal can not the plastic PN2222) has the same or close > enough FT, Ic and breakdown voltages. ?It would be my first choice if I could > not purchase/salvage the exact part. Also the 2n2222A is available and usually > cheap. ?I buy them usually in for groups of 25 for about $0.08US each. What is different about the metal can and the plastic case part? I have a few of each, and have so-far interchanged them in circuits where performance isn't an issue (i.e., where a 2N3904 would work fine, too). Obviously 2N2222s aren't expensive, but I'd like to know why I should set aside the metal-cased ones for repairing specific items. > The only case where they type transistor is a bit fussy is some of the faster > flip chip cards (logic) and SMPS. What categories of FLIP-CHIPs are you thinking of when you say "faster"? I have three R-series CPUs and a few DF-32s. I have yet to delve into component-level repair, but I know I'll need to soon. > FYI: Older DEC machines like straight-8 and friends used a lot fo the ceramic > epoxy parts similar to the 2n3638 and 2n3563. Good to know (since I have more than one item from that era). > Those are ceramic headers with > a block of epoxy covering the die and are prone to popping the epoxy and the > symptom works when cold or mechanically intermittent. Is that visually apparent, or is that an internal fault? If I identified a bad transistor and removed it from a FLIP-CHIP, would it be difficult to set up something with an oscilloscope to watch some output then tap on the transistor to watch the trace "change" to verify mechanical fragility? Thanks, -ethan From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 10:38:24 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 11:38:24 -0400 Subject: UNIX V7 In-Reply-To: <4A2ECFB9.3030309@gmail.com> References: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net> <4A2EB8A8.6050609@gmail.com> <7d3530220906091349kd5cc64dkc36ed0d7906a1ddb@mail.gmail.com> <4A2ECFB9.3030309@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A2FD370.6010402@gmail.com> Kirn Gill wrote: > It might seem odd, but I don't know how to use 'ed'. I kinda know 'ex' > due to the fact 'vi' is 'ex' turned from a line editor to a screen > editor. Most of what I know about computers from way back is mostly > limited to UNIX (and that's only because UNIX didn't die like the > other OSes.) I hate statements like this. Died like what OSes? MVS? VM? VSE? There are a bunch of OSes from back then which are still around. Peace... Sridhar From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 10 10:55:46 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 11:55:46 -0400 Subject: UNIX V7 In-Reply-To: <4A2FD370.6010402@gmail.com> References: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net> <4A2EB8A8.6050609@gmail.com> <7d3530220906091349kd5cc64dkc36ed0d7906a1ddb@mail.gmail.com> <4A2ECFB9.3030309@gmail.com> <4A2FD370.6010402@gmail.com> Message-ID: <511C333C-C22A-4543-A90E-8224D298B05E@neurotica.com> On Jun 10, 2009, at 11:38 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> It might seem odd, but I don't know how to use 'ed'. I kinda know >> 'ex' >> due to the fact 'vi' is 'ex' turned from a line editor to a screen >> editor. Most of what I know about computers from way back is mostly >> limited to UNIX (and that's only because UNIX didn't die like the >> other OSes.) > > I hate statements like this. Died like what OSes? MVS? VM? VSE? > There are a bunch of OSes from back then which are still around. This attitude is common even here, amongst people who presumably should know better. Just because VMS was around thirty years ago, that means it's a thirty-year-old OS. "Wow, I can't believe we're still using cars. They're so old! Since there were cars in 1908, that means ALL cars are from 1908!" The other amusing thing about which people here (at least) should know better is the visibility factor. VMS, OS/400, MVS, and VM are *everywhere*...but people think they're somehow "dead" because the only thing they see in for sale in WalMart is PCs running Windows. Do these people really believe PCs running Windows process their bank transactions, maintain hospital databases, or run railroads? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From slawmaster at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 10:58:17 2009 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 08:58:17 -0700 Subject: UNIX V7 In-Reply-To: <511C333C-C22A-4543-A90E-8224D298B05E@neurotica.com> References: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net> <4A2EB8A8.6050609@gmail.com> <7d3530220906091349kd5cc64dkc36ed0d7906a1ddb@mail.gmail.com> <4A2ECFB9.3030309@gmail.com> <4A2FD370.6010402@gmail.com> <511C333C-C22A-4543-A90E-8224D298B05E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <7d3530220906100858k18a4d0e9ic6351270efbd9cb0@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 8:55 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jun 10, 2009, at 11:38 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>> >>> It might seem odd, but I don't know how to use 'ed'. I kinda know 'ex' >>> due to the fact 'vi' is 'ex' turned from a line editor to a screen >>> editor. Most of what I know about computers from way back is mostly >>> limited to UNIX (and that's only because UNIX didn't die like the >>> other OSes.) >> >> I hate statements like this. ?Died like what OSes? ?MVS? ?VM? ?VSE? There >> are a bunch of OSes from back then which are still around. > > ?This attitude is common even here, amongst people who presumably should > know better. ?Just because VMS was around thirty years ago, that means it's > a thirty-year-old OS. ?"Wow, I can't believe we're still using cars. > ?They're so old! ?Since there were cars in 1908, that means ALL cars are > from 1908!" > > ?The other amusing thing about which people here (at least) should know > better is the visibility factor. ?VMS, OS/400, MVS, and VM are > *everywhere*...but people think they're somehow "dead" because the only > thing they see in for sale in WalMart is PCs running Windows. ?Do these > people really believe PCs running Windows process their bank transactions, > maintain hospital databases, or run railroads? > > ? ? ? ? ?-Dave Anything without pipes makes me choke and condemn it to a rightful and speedy death. I like my 30 year old OSes to at least include my favorite 40 year old innovation ;) John -- "I've tried programming Ruby on Rails, following TechCrunch in my RSS reader, and drinking absinthe. It doesn't work. I'm going back to C, Hunter S. Thompson, and cheap whiskey." -- Ted Dziuba From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 10 11:01:46 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 12:01:46 -0400 Subject: bizarre capacitance In-Reply-To: <4A2EE41A.A0AA128C@cs.ubc.ca> References: , <2A03BC5B-A98D-49A0-B25D-BF4E47B4BD4F@neurotica.com> <4A2E46CC.29774.29BBEF57@cclist.sydex.com> <4A2EE41A.A0AA128C@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <7E3C6977-F936-4E54-8570-D66ACE40B0BD@neurotica.com> On Jun 9, 2009, at 6:37 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > I don't claim to have a full physics understanding of the issue but > I think a rough hand-waving explanation is that with the capacitor > charged and > the dielectric under potential stress, some charge creeps into and > is held by > the dielectric itself. It takes time for the charge to creep into the > dielectric. Once the potential is removed by shorting/loading the > cap, the > dielectric charge will redistribute itself to reflect the new > potential state, > i.e. creep back out, but this too takes time. If the discharge path > has been > removed the charge will accumulate on the plates. Interesting. And bizarre. > Search for "dielectric absorption", or look up "permittivity" in > Wikipedia to > get an idea of just how complex capacitors are (!) Yes, I'm aware of their complexity...From my childhood days I thought they were simple, but in recent years I've studied them pretty closely. I've been dabbling in metrology for a few years now and have become amazed at the complexity behind the "simple" things that are the underpinnings of all things electronic. It's fascinating. Anyone interested in electronics would do well to investigate this a bit. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From tshoppa at wmata.com Wed Jun 10 11:06:34 2009 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 12:06:34 -0400 Subject: Transistor Substitution Message-ID: Allison writes: > Answer: the 2N2222A (metal can not the plastic PN2222) has the same or close > enough FT, Ic and breakdown voltages. It would be my first choice if I could > not purchase/salvage the exact part. Also the 2n2222A is available and usually > cheap. I buy them usually in for groups of 25 for about $0.08US each. Ethan asks: ? What is different about the metal can and the plastic case part? Mostly lead spacing and cosmetics. Metal can pinouts are in a semicircle, the TO92 is a straight line layout. If the original was a metal can soldered down flat to the PCB, chances are the plastic transistor will be showing some leg if used as a replacement. Metal cans can be heat sinked better than a plastic part obviously, and for peripheral or line drivers heat dissipation may be important. For a while in the 60's and 70's, the metal can parts had superior hermetic seals that were important in some space and mil-spec applications, but since then the plastic packages have been entirely perfected. Tim. From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed Jun 10 08:57:42 2009 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 09:57:42 -0400 Subject: Transistor Substitution In-Reply-To: References: <0KKZ008F8QP1CHH8@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <4A2FBBD6.4000502@verizon.net> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 5:38 PM, Allison wrote: > >> Way too much information.. What he needs to know is what can he buy now that >> should work to replace a 2n3009? >> > > I could use that info, too, since I also have older DEC equipment that > uses the 2N3009. > > >> Answer: the 2N2222A (metal can not the plastic PN2222) has the same or close >> enough FT, Ic and breakdown voltages. It would be my first choice if I could >> not purchase/salvage the exact part. Also the 2n2222A is available and usually >> cheap. I buy them usually in for groups of 25 for about $0.08US each. >> > > What is different about the metal can and the plastic case part? I > have a few of each, and have so-far interchanged them in circuits > where performance isn't an issue (i.e., where a 2N3904 would work > fine, too). Obviously 2N2222s aren't expensive, but I'd like to know > why I should set aside the metal-cased ones for repairing specific > items. > > They are essentially the same die but due to mounting and the absence of the metal the pn2222 does not stand he same Ic and power dissapation. if you really need the plastic part you might as well use the 2n3904. >> The only case where they type transistor is a bit fussy is some of the faster >> flip chip cards (logic) and SMPS. >> > > What categories of FLIP-CHIPs are you thinking of when you say > "faster"? I have three R-series CPUs and a few DF-32s. I have yet to > delve into component-level repair, but I know I'll need to soon. > > some of the older boards that used transistors for logic. one place you would see those is in an 8l or straight 8 and part of the core memory subsystem of the omnibus machines. >> FYI: Older DEC machines like straight-8 and friends used a lot fo the ceramic >> epoxy parts similar to the 2n3638 and 2n3563. >> > > Good to know (since I have more than one item from that era). > > >> Those are ceramic headers with >> a block of epoxy covering the die and are prone to popping the epoxy and the >> symptom works when cold or mechanically intermittent. >> > > Is that visually apparent, or is that an internal fault? If I > identified a bad transistor and removed it from a FLIP-CHIP, would it > be difficult to set up something with an oscilloscope to watch some > output then tap on the transistor to watch the trace "change" to > verify mechanical fragility? > > Its rare to see the top epoxy pop off but it happens. usually the part either fails or is most often thermally intermittent. Lot's of years working with transistors from that era and noo small amount of DEC scrap boards during my time with DEC for spares and as resource. Allison > Thanks, > > -ethan > > From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Jun 10 09:59:21 2009 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:59:21 -0400 Subject: TEACO Floppy drive Tester - any info available online ? In-Reply-To: <4A2EFEBF.8000805@comcast.net> References: <4A2EFEBF.8000805@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4A2FCA49.8040200@verizon.net> Dan Roganti wrote: > > I picked up this TEACO CD 2-3 floppy drive tester for only $5 at the > recent hamfest here in Pittsburgh and like to get it working again. I > did a search and found some old postings on here from 10+yrs ago, but > without any leads to any info for this tester. I hope somebody might > have a clue about this tester and some leads on finding a manual. > http://tinyurl.com/l9o5gn > > thanks > =Dan > Looks pretty cool. I wish I would have been at that hamfest (which one was it?) -- I would have bought it first! I'm jealous. I have a Brian Instruments Brikon 723 tester. I haven't played with it yet, but I have a picture here http://www.techtravels.org/amiga/amigablog/?p=214 with manuals. Thanks Keith From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 10 11:04:29 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 09:04:29 -0700 Subject: UNIX V7 In-Reply-To: <511C333C-C22A-4543-A90E-8224D298B05E@neurotica.com> References: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net>, <4A2FD370.6010402@gmail.com>, <511C333C-C22A-4543-A90E-8224D298B05E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4A2F771D.4702.2E60A537@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Jun 2009 at 11:55, Dave McGuire wrote: > This attitude is common even here, amongst people who presumably > should know better. Just because VMS was around thirty years ago, > that means it's a thirty-year-old OS. "Wow, I can't believe we're > still using cars. They're so old! Since there were cars in 1908, > that means ALL cars are from 1908!" So, does anyone know of an open-source clone for FMS II? or DOS/360? --Chuck From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Jun 10 11:45:52 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 17:45:52 +0100 Subject: Interesting IBM 5150... or something In-Reply-To: References: <6dbe3c380906092033n3dfb48f9k6c07c7a59b7beb05@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1244652352.5593.12.camel@elric> On Tue, 2009-06-09 at 23:45 -0400, William Donzelli wrote: > > I've never heard of this. Looks even more tank-like than the 5150. > > Look at the backplane where the cables go in. > > A whole bunch of these came out of surplus maybe ten years ago. I > would like to know what the IBM mpdel number is. A quick "Ask the seller a question..." and it turns out to be a 4469. Have another look at the listing, he added more pics. Gordon From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jun 10 11:52:40 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 09:52:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: UNIX V7 In-Reply-To: <511C333C-C22A-4543-A90E-8224D298B05E@neurotica.com> References: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net> <4A2EB8A8.6050609@gmail.com> <7d3530220906091349kd5cc64dkc36ed0d7906a1ddb@mail.gmail.com> <4A2ECFB9.3030309@gmail.com> <4A2FD370.6010402@gmail.com> <511C333C-C22A-4543-A90E-8224D298B05E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Jun 2009, Dave McGuire wrote: > The other amusing thing about which people here (at least) should know > better is the visibility factor. VMS, OS/400, MVS, and VM are > *everywhere*...but people think they're somehow "dead" because the only thing > they see in for sale in WalMart is PCs running Windows. Do these people > really believe PCs running Windows process their bank transactions, maintain > hospital databases, or run railroads? I agree with this statement, and out side of this audience how many people even know anything besides Windows exists? There are a lot of people that think all computers run Windows. As for people thinking certain OS's are dead, I just want to say that I continue to be amazed that GCOS-8 is still alive. Though having worked as a Systems Analyist on a DPS-8 running GCOS-8, I suspect the problem is the difficulty people have getting off of it, coupled with the fact Group Bull seems to have the brains to keep supporting it. I shudder to think what it must cost a site to run a GCOS-8 system! I would also be interested in knowing just how large of a user base there is. Zane From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 12:02:10 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 13:02:10 -0400 Subject: UNIX V7 In-Reply-To: <511C333C-C22A-4543-A90E-8224D298B05E@neurotica.com> References: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net> <4A2EB8A8.6050609@gmail.com> <7d3530220906091349kd5cc64dkc36ed0d7906a1ddb@mail.gmail.com> <4A2ECFB9.3030309@gmail.com> <4A2FD370.6010402@gmail.com> <511C333C-C22A-4543-A90E-8224D298B05E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > ?This attitude is common even here, amongst people who presumably should > know better. The finger points to me? > ?Just because VMS was around thirty years ago, that means it's > a thirty-year-old OS. ?"Wow, I can't believe we're still using cars. > ?They're so old! ?Since there were cars in 1908, that means ALL cars are > from 1908!" I never said VMS is dead - if I did, please point it out and acknowledge. I did say VMS is a "sinking ship". Not only is the market share tiny and shrinking, but its installation base (number of machines running VMS in production) is also shrinking. There are pretty much no new VMS customers. VMS is speeding along to being insignificant. And yes, OS/400, VM, MVS (yes, keeping the old names here) are also sinking ships for much the same reason, although they are still viable products. Yes, they are important, and are still cutting edge, but the truth is still that there will be a day in the future when these OSes are in the same league as MCP or TOPS-20. Hopefully that day will be long off. Here is a challenge to the whole list membership. Lots of folks here are well embedded into the industry, so I think this is a good sample. Try to think of as many new customers (not upgrades) for the following OSes (again, keeping the old names): AOS/VS, MCP, TOPS-10, TOPS-20, OS/2200, VM, MVS, VSE, OS/400, Multics, PrimOS. Lets keep this to year 2009. I bet we can not even get to twenty. -- Will From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Wed Jun 10 09:50:07 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 11:50:07 -0300 Subject: Who's dead? (was RE: UNIX V7) References: <697B813B-830F-4796-9A8C-93C55417F0C3@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1bb301c9e9db$14a8b480$af5419bb@desktaba> > Please cut the guy some slack, Ian. The OP was Kirn, who is 19. > His idea of "way back" is pretty different from yours or mine. And think about most of the young boys never seen a DOS prompt... From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 12:04:40 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 13:04:40 -0400 Subject: UNIX V7 In-Reply-To: References: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net> <4A2EB8A8.6050609@gmail.com> <7d3530220906091349kd5cc64dkc36ed0d7906a1ddb@mail.gmail.com> <4A2ECFB9.3030309@gmail.com> <4A2FD370.6010402@gmail.com> <511C333C-C22A-4543-A90E-8224D298B05E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > As for people thinking certain OS's are dead, I just want to say that I > continue to be amazed that GCOS-8 is still alive. ?Though having worked as a > Systems Analyist on a DPS-8 running GCOS-8, I suspect the problem is the > difficulty people have getting off of it, coupled with the fact Group Bull > seems to have the brains to keep supporting it. Yes, I forgot about GCOS. Pretty much in the same league as the Unisys OSes. I have heard that there are now less than 50 customers for MCP and OS/2200. The water is sloshing on the main deck. Does this seem right? -- Will From slawmaster at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 12:45:57 2009 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 10:45:57 -0700 Subject: UNIX V7 In-Reply-To: References: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net> <4A2EB8A8.6050609@gmail.com> <7d3530220906091349kd5cc64dkc36ed0d7906a1ddb@mail.gmail.com> <4A2ECFB9.3030309@gmail.com> <4A2FD370.6010402@gmail.com> <511C333C-C22A-4543-A90E-8224D298B05E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <7d3530220906101045y214bfa35wb445df6f2c5a579d@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 10:02 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> ?This attitude is common even here, amongst people who presumably should >> know better. > > The finger points to me? > >> ?Just because VMS was around thirty years ago, that means it's >> a thirty-year-old OS. ?"Wow, I can't believe we're still using cars. >> ?They're so old! ?Since there were cars in 1908, that means ALL cars are >> from 1908!" > > I never said VMS is dead - if I did, please point it out and > acknowledge. I did say VMS is a "sinking ship". Not only is the market > share tiny and shrinking, but its installation base (number of > machines running VMS in production) is also shrinking. There are > pretty much no new VMS customers. VMS is speeding along to being > insignificant. > > And yes, OS/400, VM, MVS (yes, keeping the old names here) are also > sinking ships for much the same reason, although they are still viable > products. Yes, they are important, and are still cutting edge, but the > truth is still that there will be a day in the future when these OSes > are in the same league as MCP or TOPS-20. Hopefully that day will be > long off. > > Here is a challenge to the whole list membership. Lots of folks here > are well embedded into the industry, so I think this is a good sample. > Try to think of as many new customers (not upgrades) for the following > OSes (again, keeping the old names): AOS/VS, MCP, TOPS-10, TOPS-20, > OS/2200, VM, MVS, VSE, OS/400, Multics, PrimOS. Lets keep this to year > 2009. I bet we can not even get to twenty. > > -- > Will > At this point, Multics does not run anywhere in the world and, to my knowledge, nobody even has the hardware to run it... well, CHM has DOCKMASTER, but can that still run? John -- "I've tried programming Ruby on Rails, following TechCrunch in my RSS reader, and drinking absinthe. It doesn't work. I'm going back to C, Hunter S. Thompson, and cheap whiskey." -- Ted Dziuba From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Jun 10 13:00:40 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 11:00:40 -0700 Subject: Transistor Substitution References: <0KKZ008F8QP1CHH8@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> <4A2FBBD6.4000502@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4A2FF4C8.30AD60AD@cs.ubc.ca> Allison wrote: > >> FYI: Older DEC machines like straight-8 and friends used a lot fo the ceramic > >> epoxy parts similar to the 2n3638 and 2n3563. > >> > >> Those are ceramic headers with > >> a block of epoxy covering the die and are prone to popping the epoxy and the > >> symptom works when cold or mechanically intermittent. > >> > > > > Is that visually apparent, or is that an internal fault? If I > > identified a bad transistor and removed it from a FLIP-CHIP, would it > > be difficult to set up something with an oscilloscope to watch some > > output then tap on the transistor to watch the trace "change" to > > verify mechanical fragility? > > > Its rare to see the top epoxy pop off but it happens. usually the part > either fails > or is most often thermally intermittent. TMK, only Fairchild made those packages, although they had JEDEC numbers (TO-105 and TO-106). I kind of liked them somehow, perhaps a nostalgia thing. (Never seen them fail mechanically, myself.) In all sorts of commercial equipment around the mid-60's to 70's. 2N3638 was very popular. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 10 13:09:36 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 14:09:36 -0400 Subject: Transistor Substitution In-Reply-To: <4A2FF4C8.30AD60AD@cs.ubc.ca> References: <0KKZ008F8QP1CHH8@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> <4A2FBBD6.4000502@verizon.net> <4A2FF4C8.30AD60AD@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Jun 10, 2009, at 2:00 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > TMK, only Fairchild made those packages, although they had JEDEC > numbers > (TO-105 and TO-106). > > I kind of liked them somehow, perhaps a nostalgia thing. (Never > seen them fail > mechanically, myself.) In all sorts of commercial equipment around > the mid-60's > to 70's. 2N3638 was very popular. I got a bag of 2N3638s at a hamfest when I was a kid. I think they're the first transistors I ever did anything fun with, with the exception of the 2SA/2SB-somethingorothers in the Radio Shack 65-in-1 kit. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 10 13:11:35 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 14:11:35 -0400 Subject: UNIX V7 In-Reply-To: References: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net> <4A2EB8A8.6050609@gmail.com> <7d3530220906091349kd5cc64dkc36ed0d7906a1ddb@mail.gmail.com> <4A2ECFB9.3030309@gmail.com> <4A2FD370.6010402@gmail.com> <511C333C-C22A-4543-A90E-8224D298B05E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <73BD4C0E-7861-47EE-987B-4B2AAF45C72A@neurotica.com> On Jun 10, 2009, at 12:52 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >> The other amusing thing about which people here (at least) should >> know better is the visibility factor. VMS, OS/400, MVS, and VM >> are *everywhere*...but people think they're somehow "dead" because >> the only thing they see in for sale in WalMart is PCs running >> Windows. Do these people really believe PCs running Windows >> process their bank transactions, maintain hospital databases, or >> run railroads? > > I agree with this statement, and out side of this audience how many > people > even know anything besides Windows exists? There are a lot of > people that > think all computers run Windows. Well, this isn't the only group of technical people in the world. As far as knowing about what the real data processing world uses, it's not classic computer enthusiasts vs. the rest of the world, it's knowledgeable computer people vs. the rest of the world. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Jun 10 13:25:15 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 11:25:15 -0700 Subject: UNIX V7 In-Reply-To: <7d3530220906101045y214bfa35wb445df6f2c5a579d@mail.gmail.com> References: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net> <4A2EB8A8.6050609@gmail.com> <7d3530220906091349kd5cc64dkc36ed0d7906a1ddb@mail.gmail.com> <4A2ECFB9.3030309@gmail.com> <4A2FD370.6010402@gmail.com> <511C333C-C22A-4543-A90E-8224D298B05E@neurotica.com> <7d3530220906101045y214bfa35wb445df6f2c5a579d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Floren > Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 10:46 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: UNIX V7 > > > At this point, Multics does not run anywhere in the world and, to my > knowledge, nobody even has the hardware to run it... well, CHM has > DOCKMASTER, but can that still run? > No. It is missing the swapping disk. Replacing it could be done, but it would be a non-trivial (and non-cheap) enterprise. -- Ian From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jun 10 13:25:02 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 11:25:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: UNIX V7 In-Reply-To: <73BD4C0E-7861-47EE-987B-4B2AAF45C72A@neurotica.com> References: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net> <4A2EB8A8.6050609@gmail.com> <7d3530220906091349kd5cc64dkc36ed0d7906a1ddb@mail.gmail.com> <4A2ECFB9.3030309@gmail.com> <4A2FD370.6010402@gmail.com> <511C333C-C22A-4543-A90E-8224D298B05E@neurotica.com> <73BD4C0E-7861-47EE-987B-4B2AAF45C72A@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Jun 2009, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jun 10, 2009, at 12:52 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>> The other amusing thing about which people here (at least) should know >>> better is the visibility factor. VMS, OS/400, MVS, and VM are >>> *everywhere*...but people think they're somehow "dead" because the only >>> thing they see in for sale in WalMart is PCs running Windows. Do these >>> people really believe PCs running Windows process their bank transactions, >>> maintain hospital databases, or run railroads? >> >> I agree with this statement, and out side of this audience how many people >> even know anything besides Windows exists? There are a lot of people that >> think all computers run Windows. > > Well, this isn't the only group of technical people in the world. As far as > knowing about what the real data processing world uses, it's not classic > computer enthusiasts vs. the rest of the world, it's knowledgeable computer > people vs. the rest of the world. Of course this isn't the only group of technical people. The disturbing thing is, there are a sizable group of "technical" people who thing Windows is all there is, and either don't realize anything else exists, or that anything else still exists. These are the people that really scare me. Zane From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 10 13:37:07 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 14:37:07 -0400 Subject: UNIX V7 In-Reply-To: References: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net> <4A2EB8A8.6050609@gmail.com> <7d3530220906091349kd5cc64dkc36ed0d7906a1ddb@mail.gmail.com> <4A2ECFB9.3030309@gmail.com> <4A2FD370.6010402@gmail.com> <511C333C-C22A-4543-A90E-8224D298B05E@neurotica.com> <73BD4C0E-7861-47EE-987B-4B2AAF45C72A@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <05F556B0-4D94-4CC3-BAA4-9455A2767B0B@neurotica.com> On Jun 10, 2009, at 2:25 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: >>>> The other amusing thing about which people here (at least) >>>> should know better is the visibility factor. VMS, OS/400, MVS, >>>> and VM are *everywhere*...but people think they're somehow >>>> "dead" because the only thing they see in for sale in WalMart is >>>> PCs running Windows. Do these people really believe PCs running >>>> Windows process their bank transactions, maintain hospital >>>> databases, or run railroads? >>> I agree with this statement, and out side of this audience how >>> many people >>> even know anything besides Windows exists? There are a lot of >>> people that >>> think all computers run Windows. >> >> Well, this isn't the only group of technical people in the world. >> As far as knowing about what the real data processing world uses, >> it's not classic computer enthusiasts vs. the rest of the world, >> it's knowledgeable computer people vs. the rest of the world. > > Of course this isn't the only group of technical people. The > disturbing > thing is, there are a sizable group of "technical" people who thing > Windows > is all there is, and either don't realize anything else exists, or > that > anything else still exists. These are the people that really scare > me. Same here, but I don't really consider them to be "technical people". Being that I don't use (or work on) Windows machines, I tend not to work with those people professionally, and I certainly don't associate with them on a social level...they give me that "not so fresh" feeling. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 13:34:47 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 14:34:47 -0400 Subject: UNIX V7 In-Reply-To: References: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net> <4A2EB8A8.6050609@gmail.com> <7d3530220906091349kd5cc64dkc36ed0d7906a1ddb@mail.gmail.com> <4A2ECFB9.3030309@gmail.com> <4A2FD370.6010402@gmail.com> <511C333C-C22A-4543-A90E-8224D298B05E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 1:02 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > I never said VMS is dead - if I did, please point it out and > acknowledge. I did say VMS is a "sinking ship". You did. And it is (and I have made a lot of money on the ride down). > Not only is the market > share tiny and shrinking, but its installation base (number of > machines running VMS in production) is also shrinking. There are > pretty much no new VMS customers. VMS is speeding along to being > insignificant. I saw that start in the late 1980s when DEC was at the "top of its game"... we sold our products to DEC's customers, and when their userbase stopped growing at the rate it had been at, our potential market pool stopped growing, too. DEC kept making more money and newer and faster boxes, but they were mostly selling them to their existing customers as upgrades. Sure, folks were adding capacity all over the place, but the number of physical installations essentially stopped expanding 20 years ago, long before it obviously began to shrink. > Try to think of as many new customers (not upgrades) for the following > OSes (again, keeping the old names): AOS/VS, MCP, TOPS-10, TOPS-20, > OS/2200, VM, MVS, VSE, OS/400, Multics, PrimOS. Lets keep this to year > 2009. I bet we can not even get to twenty. New in 2009? I have no candidates (and the number does not go up for 'new since 1999'). I love VMS, but I don't see it as a growth industry. It's not dead-and-gone, but neither is it thriving nor has it for a very long time. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 13:35:54 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 14:35:54 -0400 Subject: UNIX V7 In-Reply-To: <7d3530220906101045y214bfa35wb445df6f2c5a579d@mail.gmail.com> References: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net> <4A2EB8A8.6050609@gmail.com> <7d3530220906091349kd5cc64dkc36ed0d7906a1ddb@mail.gmail.com> <4A2ECFB9.3030309@gmail.com> <4A2FD370.6010402@gmail.com> <511C333C-C22A-4543-A90E-8224D298B05E@neurotica.com> <7d3530220906101045y214bfa35wb445df6f2c5a579d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 1:45 PM, John Floren wrote: > At this point, Multics does not run anywhere in the world and, to my > knowledge, nobody even has the hardware to run it... well, CHM has > DOCKMASTER, but can that still run? Is that the same Dockmaster that Cliff Stoll mentioned in "The Cuckoo's Egg"? -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 13:38:26 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 14:38:26 -0400 Subject: UNIX V7 In-Reply-To: <511C333C-C22A-4543-A90E-8224D298B05E@neurotica.com> References: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net> <4A2EB8A8.6050609@gmail.com> <7d3530220906091349kd5cc64dkc36ed0d7906a1ddb@mail.gmail.com> <4A2ECFB9.3030309@gmail.com> <4A2FD370.6010402@gmail.com> <511C333C-C22A-4543-A90E-8224D298B05E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 11:55 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > ?This attitude is common... > ... the only > thing they see in for sale in WalMart is PCs running Windows. ?Do these > people really believe PCs running Windows process their bank transactions, > maintain hospital databases, or run railroads? Common indeed - an example from just this week: I was volunteering at FreeGeek Columbus, sifting through a pile of donated 2U servers, when one of the other volunteers _who uses Linux_ asked me what they were (because he honestly didn't recognize a boxy slab as a computer). Upon hearing the answer, he asked what a server does and where you'd use one. It's a bit tough to explain to someone the difference between a rackable server-class machine and a desktop machine when there's little common conceptual ground or vocabulary. I don't know how much of I was saying was starting to make sense because the last question was, "I'm thinking of starting a business with some friends. Do we need a server?" Besides the cop-out answer of "probably, at some point", I really didn't have a good answer for him. It's a good thing I'm not in Sales. -ethan From slawmaster at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 13:42:06 2009 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 11:42:06 -0700 Subject: UNIX V7 In-Reply-To: References: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net> <4A2EB8A8.6050609@gmail.com> <7d3530220906091349kd5cc64dkc36ed0d7906a1ddb@mail.gmail.com> <4A2ECFB9.3030309@gmail.com> <4A2FD370.6010402@gmail.com> <511C333C-C22A-4543-A90E-8224D298B05E@neurotica.com> <7d3530220906101045y214bfa35wb445df6f2c5a579d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7d3530220906101142m23168d5bxb7645873efaf0bb2@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 11:35 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 1:45 PM, John Floren wrote: >> At this point, Multics does not run anywhere in the world and, to my >> knowledge, nobody even has the hardware to run it... well, CHM has >> DOCKMASTER, but can that still run? > > Is that the same Dockmaster that Cliff Stoll mentioned in "The Cuckoo's Egg"? > > -ethan > If "The Cuckoo's Egg" is about the NSA, then probably yes? -- "I've tried programming Ruby on Rails, following TechCrunch in my RSS reader, and drinking absinthe. It doesn't work. I'm going back to C, Hunter S. Thompson, and cheap whiskey." -- Ted Dziuba From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jun 10 13:43:44 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 11:43:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: UNIX V7 In-Reply-To: References: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net> <4A2EB8A8.6050609@gmail.com> <7d3530220906091349kd5cc64dkc36ed0d7906a1ddb@mail.gmail.com> <4A2ECFB9.3030309@gmail.com> <4A2FD370.6010402@gmail.com> <511C333C-C22A-4543-A90E-8224D298B05E@neurotica.com> <7d3530220906101045y214bfa35wb445df6f2c5a579d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Jun 2009, Ian King wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Floren >> Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 10:46 AM >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: UNIX V7 >> >> >> At this point, Multics does not run anywhere in the world and, to my >> knowledge, nobody even has the hardware to run it... well, CHM has >> DOCKMASTER, but can that still run? >> > > No. It is missing the swapping disk. Replacing it could be done, but it > would be a non-trivial (and non-cheap) enterprise. -- Ian > What kind of hardware are you talking here? Looking at http://www.multicians.org/site-dockmaster.html I assume you're talking about the "4 MW paging device (bulk store)", though the same page mentions that CHM didn't recieve the disks. Are the drives all the removable diskpack type? We used mainly fixed disks, but had a few removable packs. Does anyone know what it takes to connect IBM DASD to a DPS-8, and if Multic's would support it? I know that it is possible with GCOS-8, but I do not know what model, or how it would be connected. As *INSANE* as it sounds, someone dropped one of the two DASD units for the site I worked at off the back of the truck, and it wasn't replaced (not sure why), as a result we were unable to bring the IBM DASD online. As of this last weekend my Honeywell manuals are out of storage, and at home. I'm just not sure where they are in the garage, though I've a pretty good idea. It will be interesting to see just what I have manuals for as it has been years since I've seen them. I'm sure I don't have anything on Mulitics, as I worked at a GCOS-8 site. I'm not sure what I might have on hardware. I do know that when I can find the time, I want to go through and refresh my memory on GCOS-8. I haven't touched it in nearly 16 years. Zane From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Wed Jun 10 13:53:15 2009 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 14:53:15 -0400 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Kinda_OT=3A_Apollo_11_-_The_Owners=27?= =?windows-1252?Q?_Workshop_Manual_=95_The_Register?= Message-ID: <4A30011B.3040501@sbcglobal.net> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/10/apollo_owners_manual/ ...and... http://www.haynes.co.uk/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10001&storeId=10001&productId=47367&langId=-1 -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ "From there to here, From here to there, Funny things are everywhere." --- Dr. Seuss From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Jun 10 13:55:46 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 11:55:46 -0700 Subject: UNIX V7 In-Reply-To: References: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net> <4A2EB8A8.6050609@gmail.com> <7d3530220906091349kd5cc64dkc36ed0d7906a1ddb@mail.gmail.com> <4A2ECFB9.3030309@gmail.com> <4A2FD370.6010402@gmail.com> <511C333C-C22A-4543-A90E-8224D298B05E@neurotica.com> <7d3530220906101045y214bfa35wb445df6f2c5a579d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > From: Ethan Dicks > Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 11:36 AM > On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 1:45 PM, John Floren wrote: >> At this point, Multics does not run anywhere in the world and, to my >> knowledge, nobody even has the hardware to run it... well, CHM has >> DOCKMASTER, but can that still run? > Is that the same Dockmaster that Cliff Stoll mentioned in "The Cuckoo's Egg"? Yes. For the gent who followed up asking about _The Cuckoo's Egg_, it's the story of a Berkeley astronomy geek tracking down a KGB cracker working out of East Germany. some of the systems at Stanford were part of the compromised network. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell http://www.pdpplanet.org/ From brianlanning at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 14:00:46 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 14:00:46 -0500 Subject: Interesting IBM 5150... or something In-Reply-To: <2b1f1f550906092053t12dfcdcbi7a83bfadcd4bfb88@mail.gmail.com> References: <6dbe3c380906092033n3dfb48f9k6c07c7a59b7beb05@mail.gmail.com> <2b1f1f550906092053t12dfcdcbi7a83bfadcd4bfb88@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <6dbe3c380906101200q1dff4858u429c2e2f28a2a684@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 9, 2009 at 10:53 PM, Joe Giliberti wrote: > Looks like an AT you're right. 5150 was a typeo From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 14:04:03 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:04:03 -0400 Subject: UNIX V7 In-Reply-To: <511C333C-C22A-4543-A90E-8224D298B05E@neurotica.com> References: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net> <4A2EB8A8.6050609@gmail.com> <7d3530220906091349kd5cc64dkc36ed0d7906a1ddb@mail.gmail.com> <4A2ECFB9.3030309@gmail.com> <4A2FD370.6010402@gmail.com> <511C333C-C22A-4543-A90E-8224D298B05E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > ?The other amusing thing about which people here (at least) should know > better is the visibility factor. ?VMS, OS/400, MVS, and VM are > *everywhere*...but people think they're somehow "dead" because the only > thing they see in for sale in WalMart is PCs running Windows. ?Do these > people really believe PCs running Windows process their bank transactions, > maintain hospital databases, or run railroads? Let's also give credit where credit is due - there are huge numbers of *nix guys that are as bad as the Windows guys. The penguin crowd are the worst offenders. -- Will From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Jun 10 14:05:22 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 12:05:22 -0700 Subject: UNIX V7 In-Reply-To: References: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net> <4A2EB8A8.6050609@gmail.com> <7d3530220906091349kd5cc64dkc36ed0d7906a1ddb@mail.gmail.com> <4A2ECFB9.3030309@gmail.com> <4A2FD370.6010402@gmail.com> <511C333C-C22A-4543-A90E-8224D298B05E@neurotica.com> <7d3530220906101045y214bfa35wb445df6f2c5a579d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > From: Zane H. Healy > Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 11:44 AM > On Wed, 10 Jun 2009, Ian King wrote: >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >>> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of John Floren >>> Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 10:46 AM >>> At this point, Multics does not run anywhere in the world and, to my >>> knowledge, nobody even has the hardware to run it... well, CHM has >>> DOCKMASTER, but can that still run? >> No. It is missing the swapping disk. Replacing it could be done, but it >> would be a non-trivial (and non-cheap) enterprise. -- Ian Ian is not quite correct in this statement. The HDAs from the Winchester- technology disk drives were removed before the machine was moved out of its computer room. It's not *just* the swapping disks, it's *all* the disks. > What kind of hardware are you talking here? Looking at > http://www.multicians.org/site-dockmaster.html I assume you're talking about > the "4 MW paging device (bulk store)", though the same page mentions that > CHM didn't recieve the disks. Are the drives all the removable diskpack > type? We used mainly fixed disks, but had a few removable packs. These appear to be CDC drives (9670?) similar to the DEC RP07. A search throughout the Honeywell universe turned up no surviving examples of these drives, nor HDAs for same. > Does anyone know what it takes to connect IBM DASD to a DPS-8, and if > Multic's would support it? I know that it is possible with GCOS-8, but I do > not know what model, or how it would be connected. As *INSANE* as it > sounds, someone dropped one of the two DASD units for the site I worked at > off the back of the truck, and it wasn't replaced (not sure why), as a > result we were unable to bring the IBM DASD online. IBM DASD can connect to a Multics system using an interface created by one of the long time Multicians for one of his customers. The first issue is that you have to replace the bus-and-tag connectors with FIPS standard connectors. > As of this last weekend my Honeywell manuals are out of storage, and at > home. I'm just not sure where they are in the garage, though I've a pretty > good idea. It will be interesting to see just what I have manuals for as it > has been years since I've seen them. I'm sure I don't have anything on > Mulitics, as I worked at a GCOS-8 site. I'm not sure what I might have on > hardware. I do know that when I can find the time, I want to go through and > refresh my memory on GCOS-8. I haven't touched it in nearly 16 years. We have been told (by eminent Multicians) that there are differences in the electronics between a DPS-8 (GCOS) and a DPS-8M (Multics) CPU. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell http://www.pdpplanet.org/ From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jun 10 14:10:51 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 12:10:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: UNIX V7 In-Reply-To: from William Donzelli at "Jun 10, 9 03:04:03 pm" Message-ID: <200906101910.n5AJApxY013074@floodgap.com> > > _The other amusing thing about which people here (at least) should know > > better is the visibility factor. _VMS, OS/400, MVS, and VM are > > *everywhere*...but people think they're somehow "dead" because the only > > thing they see in for sale in WalMart is PCs running Windows. _Do these > > people really believe PCs running Windows process their bank transactions, > > maintain hospital databases, or run railroads? > > Let's also give credit where credit is due - there are huge numbers of > *nix guys that are as bad as the Windows guys. The penguin crowd are > the worst offenders. I'll drink to that (strychnine, probably). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Just another Sojourner of the Dispersion (1 Peter 1:1) --------------------- From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 10 14:14:57 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:14:57 -0400 Subject: UNIX V7 In-Reply-To: References: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net> <4A2EB8A8.6050609@gmail.com> <7d3530220906091349kd5cc64dkc36ed0d7906a1ddb@mail.gmail.com> <4A2ECFB9.3030309@gmail.com> <4A2FD370.6010402@gmail.com> <511C333C-C22A-4543-A90E-8224D298B05E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Jun 10, 2009, at 3:04 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> The other amusing thing about which people here (at least) should >> know >> better is the visibility factor. VMS, OS/400, MVS, and VM are >> *everywhere*...but people think they're somehow "dead" because the >> only >> thing they see in for sale in WalMart is PCs running Windows. Do >> these >> people really believe PCs running Windows process their bank >> transactions, >> maintain hospital databases, or run railroads? > > Let's also give credit where credit is due - there are huge numbers of > *nix guys that are as bad as the Windows guys. The penguin crowd are > the worst offenders. We're in agreement there. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Jun 10 14:16:23 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:16:23 -0400 Subject: UNIX V7 In-Reply-To: References: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net> <511C333C-C22A-4543-A90E-8224D298B05E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200906101516.23814.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 10 June 2009, William Donzelli wrote: > > ?The other amusing thing about which people here (at least) should > > know better is the visibility factor. ?VMS, OS/400, MVS, and VM are > > *everywhere*...but people think they're somehow "dead" because the > > only thing they see in for sale in WalMart is PCs running Windows. > > ?Do these people really believe PCs running Windows process their > > bank transactions, maintain hospital databases, or run railroads? > > Let's also give credit where credit is due - there are huge numbers > of *nix guys that are as bad as the Windows guys. The penguin crowd > are the worst offenders. Really? I assumed that you were saying that Linux was (dead|a sinking ship) because it wasn't Windows. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Jun 10 14:22:47 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:22:47 -0400 Subject: UNIX V7 In-Reply-To: References: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net> <511C333C-C22A-4543-A90E-8224D298B05E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200906101522.47505.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 10 June 2009, William Donzelli wrote: > > ?The other amusing thing about which people here (at least) should > > know better is the visibility factor. ?VMS, OS/400, MVS, and VM are > > *everywhere*...but people think they're somehow "dead" because the > > only thing they see in for sale in WalMart is PCs running Windows. > > ?Do these people really believe PCs running Windows process their > > bank transactions, maintain hospital databases, or run railroads? > > Let's also give credit where credit is due - there are huge numbers > of *nix guys that are as bad as the Windows guys. The penguin crowd > are the worst offenders. Having seen inside CSX Railroad's control room in Indianapolis, I can tell you that there's a lot of PCs running the(ir) railroad, even if they're not running Windows. They're also not the only business I've removed classic gear from that has quite successfully switched to a commodity hardware platform. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From bdwheele at indiana.edu Wed Jun 10 14:24:37 2009 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:24:37 -0400 Subject: UNIX V7 In-Reply-To: References: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net> <4A2EB8A8.6050609@gmail.com> <7d3530220906091349kd5cc64dkc36ed0d7906a1ddb@mail.gmail.com> <4A2ECFB9.3030309@gmail.com> <4A2FD370.6010402@gmail.com> <511C333C-C22A-4543-A90E-8224D298B05E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1244661877.9042.14.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> On Wed, 2009-06-10 at 15:14 -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jun 10, 2009, at 3:04 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > >> The other amusing thing about which people here (at least) should > >> know > >> better is the visibility factor. VMS, OS/400, MVS, and VM are > >> *everywhere*...but people think they're somehow "dead" because the > >> only > >> thing they see in for sale in WalMart is PCs running Windows. Do > >> these > >> people really believe PCs running Windows process their bank > >> transactions, > >> maintain hospital databases, or run railroads? > > > > Let's also give credit where credit is due - there are huge numbers of > > *nix guys that are as bad as the Windows guys. The penguin crowd are > > the worst offenders. > > We're in agreement there. > > -Dave > As one of the Penguin Crowd, I agree. The local linux user's group seems to be filled with people more interested in flashy gui stuff than understanding how the system works. Asking any kind of technical question of them usually meets with silence. I guess if I asked about configuring compiz or upping my FPS I'd get a lot of answers. Brian From bdwheele at indiana.edu Wed Jun 10 14:27:26 2009 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:27:26 -0400 Subject: UNIX V7 In-Reply-To: <200906101522.47505.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net> <511C333C-C22A-4543-A90E-8224D298B05E@neurotica.com> <200906101522.47505.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <1244662046.9042.17.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> On Wed, 2009-06-10 at 15:22 -0400, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Wednesday 10 June 2009, William Donzelli wrote: > > > The other amusing thing about which people here (at least) should > > > know better is the visibility factor. VMS, OS/400, MVS, and VM are > > > *everywhere*...but people think they're somehow "dead" because the > > > only thing they see in for sale in WalMart is PCs running Windows. > > > Do these people really believe PCs running Windows process their > > > bank transactions, maintain hospital databases, or run railroads? > > > > Let's also give credit where credit is due - there are huge numbers > > of *nix guys that are as bad as the Windows guys. The penguin crowd > > are the worst offenders. > > Having seen inside CSX Railroad's control room in Indianapolis, I can > tell you that there's a lot of PCs running the(ir) railroad, even if > they're not running Windows. They're also not the only business I've > removed classic gear from that has quite successfully switched to a > commodity hardware platform. > As a railroading fan, I've got to know: what do they use? > Pat From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Jun 10 14:32:31 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 12:32:31 -0700 Subject: bizarre capacitance References: , <2A03BC5B-A98D-49A0-B25D-BF4E47B4BD4F@neurotica.com> <4A2E46CC.29774.29BBEF57@cclist.sydex.com> <4A2EE41A.A0AA128C@cs.ubc.ca> <7E3C6977-F936-4E54-8570-D66ACE40B0BD@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4A300A4E.58FD41CD@cs.ubc.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > > Search for "dielectric absorption", or look up "permittivity" in > > Wikipedia to > > get an idea of just how complex capacitors are (!) > > Yes, I'm aware of their complexity...From my childhood days I > thought they were simple, but in recent years I've studied them > pretty closely. I've been dabbling in metrology for a few years now > and have become amazed at the complexity behind the "simple" things > that are the underpinnings of all things electronic. It's > fascinating. Anyone interested in electronics would do well to > investigate this a bit. > .. we tend to coast along with 'adequate' models for day to day efforts. Having an appreciation for the underlying principles helps when things don't work as expected, amongst other benefits. -- OT: Too easily distracted from things I should be doing, here are two ballpark approaches to determining the capacitance of a cloud: - by cloud and earth as (perfect) plates: Given a cloud with a base of 2 km diameter, situated 3km above the ground, (p is permittivity of air), then: C = pA/d = 8.9e-12 * 3.14*(2000/2)^2 / 3000 = 0.009 uF - by energy content: If a lightning strike delivers 30 KWh of energy at 200 million volts, then: E = 1/2 CV^2 C = 2E / V^2 = 2 * 30,000 Jh/S * 3600 S/h / (2e8 J/C)^2 = 5.4e-9 C^2/J = 0.005 uF E & V parameters were just some numbers picked off web sites about lightning. Interesting they came out with a rough equivalence. Going by such web sites, there isn't really that much energy in a lightning strike (it's just very high power as it is released so quickly.) From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 10 14:31:33 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 12:31:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for IMI 5018 MFM drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090610122907.V68379@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 9 Jun 2009, Steven Hirsch wrote: > Title says it. Need to replace the drive mechanism in one of my Corvus > flat-cable drives. Firmware expects 6-heads and 306 cylinders and gets > boggled by anything larger, unfortunately. > Could also probably work with Seagate ST419 or Rodime RO203, which are the > only other drives I've found with the same geometry. There were a few more "15 meg" drives with that structure. Sure that you can't fool it into ignoring a few heads or cylinders with a 8 x 306 or 6 x 600? 20 and 30 Meg are a little easier to find. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 14:35:47 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:35:47 -0400 Subject: UNIX V7 In-Reply-To: <200906101516.23814.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net> <511C333C-C22A-4543-A90E-8224D298B05E@neurotica.com> <200906101516.23814.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: > Really? ?I assumed that you were saying that Linux was (dead|a sinking > ship) because it wasn't Windows. Dead is a sunk ship. Dying is a sinking ship. Basic seamanship. -- Will From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Wed Jun 10 14:44:10 2009 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 21:44:10 +0200 Subject: UNIX V7 In-Reply-To: References: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net> <4A2EB8A8.6050609@gmail.com> <7d3530220906091349kd5cc64dkc36ed0d7906a1ddb@mail.gmail.com> <4A2ECFB9.3030309@gmail.com> <4A2FD370.6010402@gmail.com> <511C333C-C22A-4543-A90E-8224D298B05E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 13:04:40 -0400 > Subject: Re: UNIX V7 > From: wdonzelli at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > As for people thinking certain OS's are dead, I just want to say that I > > continue to be amazed that GCOS-8 is still alive. Though having worked as a > > Systems Analyist on a DPS-8 running GCOS-8, I suspect the problem is the > > difficulty people have getting off of it, coupled with the fact Group Bull > > seems to have the brains to keep supporting it. > > Yes, I forgot about GCOS. Pretty much in the same league as the Unisys > OSes. I have heard that there are now less than 50 customers for MCP > and OS/2200. The water is sloshing on the main deck. Does this seem > right? > > -- > Will I am not sure if I need to change the topic header ... Just out of curiosity Will, is OS/2200 the follow-up of EXEC on the Sperry1100? I worked on those machines, using EXEC1100 39R5 in 1985-1990. In the end I worked for the company helping another company setting up a 2200 system. The modern follow-up of the 1100, but then the OS was still EXEC1100. I did the EXEC internals course, and was able (then) to read and process a panic dump printout and find the culprit that caused the (very stable) OS to crash. Fond memories of that time ... loved PLUS and MASM1100. Does some EXEC 1100 simulation exist? Not the real hardware, but if I could enter @ASG,T and @USE would be cool! Coding in MASM1100 would be fun to relive! thanks, - Henk. From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Wed Jun 10 14:49:05 2009 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 20:49:05 +0100 Subject: Nearly there with IBM 029 KeyPunch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <04F4F247-EE9B-4C77-BFAE-78FE1316883F@microspot.co.uk> The theory said to change the resonant frequency of my keypunch's ferro-resonant power regulator from 60Hz to 50Hz I should up the 15uF capacitor to 21.6 uF. Well I tried 21.5, and the voltage went up by ONE volt. Hmm, scratch head, at least it went in the right direction. Search around for AC capacitors and find one in a defunct large electric lawnmower. Its 30uF, I think about replacing the 15 with it but if an extra 6.5uF only gained one volt, and I need 6 then it seemed reasonable to combine it and try 45 uF. That gives me 46volts, only 2 volts short. I throw in the 6.5uF too and I get 47 volts. I try the punch and it works much better. Not 100%, but that could well be down to other problems. For one thing, the alpha shift key does not latch, I need to hold it down. There are keys for numeric and alpha. If it was not meant to latch, why would they have a numeric key? Its so many years since I used an 029 (at university as my first job was at a paper tape using establishment) that I can't remember for sure. Anyway, thats sounds like an easy problem to find in relay logic, though these wire relays are difficult to see if they are active or not. Maybe I'll add LEDs (and resistors of course). Another problem is 1 to 7 print fine, but not 8 and 9. The alphabet print only their numeric component, 1 to 7 and again not 8 or 9. I tried using it in interpret mode, it fired like a machine gun but the card did not move, but the time I worked out how to stop it there was the smell of overheating solenoids. I don't think I damaged anything, just a bit hot. Thanks for all your help. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 10 14:50:20 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 12:50:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: UNIX V7 In-Reply-To: References: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net> <4A2EB8A8.6050609@gmail.com> <7d3530220906091349kd5cc64dkc36ed0d7906a1ddb@mail.gmail.com> <4A2ECFB9.3030309@gmail.com> <4A2FD370.6010402@gmail.com> <511C333C-C22A-4543-A90E-8224D298B05E@neurotica.com> <7d3530220906101045y214bfa35wb445df6f2c5a579d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090610124816.F68379@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 10 Jun 2009, Rich Alderson wrote: > For the gent who followed up asking about _The Cuckoo's Egg_, it's the > story of a Berkeley astronomy geek tracking down a KGB cracker working > out of East Germany. some of the systems at Stanford were part of the > compromised network. Clif once told me that he has a dream of trying to make a webserver running on punch cards. He got a box of cards and a core plane from my office. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 14:50:42 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:50:42 -0400 Subject: UNIX V7 In-Reply-To: References: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net> <4A2EB8A8.6050609@gmail.com> <7d3530220906091349kd5cc64dkc36ed0d7906a1ddb@mail.gmail.com> <4A2ECFB9.3030309@gmail.com> <4A2FD370.6010402@gmail.com> <511C333C-C22A-4543-A90E-8224D298B05E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > Just out of curiosity Will, is OS/2200 the follow-up of EXEC on the Sperry1100? Yes. > Does some EXEC 1100 simulation exist? I think its all in simulation now, as Unisys apparently does not make their own processors. -- Will From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Jun 10 14:54:32 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:54:32 -0400 Subject: UNIX V7 In-Reply-To: References: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net> <200906101516.23814.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200906101554.32589.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 10 June 2009, William Donzelli wrote: > > Really? ?I assumed that you were saying that Linux was (dead|a > > sinking ship) because it wasn't Windows. > > Dead is a sunk ship. Dying is a sinking ship. Basic seamanship. I wasn't saying that they were equivalent, just that it was one or the other. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 10 14:11:44 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 20:11:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: Transistor Substitution In-Reply-To: <0KKZ008F8QP1CHH8@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> from "Allison" at Jun 9, 9 05:38:12 pm Message-ID: > >> I have a couple of DEC machines which I need to replace a few components > >> on, and also stock up spares of others. With the transistors and diodes, > >> however, I often can't find a direct replacement - and don't know how to > >> figure out what a modern substitute is. > >> > >> For a 2N3009, for example, I can find basic information and a datasheet > >> online easily enough - but as for choosing a functional, available > >> substitute for it, I'm honestly not even sure where to begin. [...] > Way too much information.. What he needs to know is what can he buy now that > should work to replace a 2n3009? There is a saying in England : 'Give a man a fish, you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, you feed him for life'. I try to use that principle when posting here. I try to show how solve similar problems in the future. None of us will be around for ever [1] and I think it's important the information, methods, 'tricks', etc get passed on [1] It would only take one careless mistake when repairing an SMPSU... As the bit of the original message I've left above semems to suggest, the 2N3309 is an example, and the OP possibly needs to substitute other transistors as well. > The only case where they type transistor is a bit fussy is some of the faster > flip chip cards (logic) and SMPS. Maybe in DEC equipment... But I can assure you that the HP9100 is 'touchy'. It's not particularly high-speed, it's certainly not an SMPSU, but you will have 'fun' working out what transistors to use. -tony From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jun 10 15:30:24 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 13:30:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: UNIX V7 In-Reply-To: from William Donzelli at "Jun 10, 9 03:50:42 pm" Message-ID: <200906102030.n5AKUO4s013040@floodgap.com> > > Does some EXEC 1100 simulation exist? > > I think its all in simulation now, as Unisys apparently does not make > their own processors. Yes, they are all simulated now TTBOMK. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Time makes more converts than reason. -- Thomas Payne ---------------------- From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jun 10 15:30:41 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 13:30:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: UNIX V7 In-Reply-To: References: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net> <4A2EB8A8.6050609@gmail.com> <7d3530220906091349kd5cc64dkc36ed0d7906a1ddb@mail.gmail.com> <4A2ECFB9.3030309@gmail.com> <4A2FD370.6010402@gmail.com> <511C333C-C22A-4543-A90E-8224D298B05E@neurotica.com> <7d3530220906101045y214bfa35wb445df6f2c5a579d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Jun 2009, Rich Alderson wrote: >> From: Zane H. Healy >> Sent: Wednesday, June 10, 2009 11:44 AM > >> On Wed, 10 Jun 2009, Ian King wrote: > >>> No. It is missing the swapping disk. Replacing it could be done, but it >>> would be a non-trivial (and non-cheap) enterprise. -- Ian > > Ian is not quite correct in this statement. The HDAs from the Winchester- > technology disk drives were removed before the machine was moved out of its > computer room. It's not *just* the swapping disks, it's *all* the disks. I was wondering about this, due to where the machine came from it seemed unlikely that any HD's or media would have escaped distruction. > These appear to be CDC drives (9670?) similar to the DEC RP07. A search > throughout the Honeywell universe turned up no surviving examples of these > drives, nor HDAs for same. I'm not familiar with the RP07's, but the look close. There is a good chance I have details on the models. > IBM DASD can connect to a Multics system using an interface created by one of > the long time Multicians for one of his customers. The first issue is that you > have to replace the bus-and-tag connectors with FIPS standard connectors. That is good to know. > We have been told (by eminent Multicians) that there are differences in the > electronics between a DPS-8 (GCOS) and a DPS-8M (Multics) CPU. I don't doubt that. I'd love to see a emulator capable of running Multic's and DPS-8, but at the same time, I have doubts Group Bull would let copies of GCOS-8 out into the wild. Zane From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Jun 10 15:35:51 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 13:35:51 -0700 Subject: Oddest mismatch in hardware for a given purpose... In-Reply-To: <4A2F4134.7090001@mail.msu.edu> References: <4A2F4134.7090001@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4A301927.7000900@brouhaha.com> Josh Dersch wrote: > I have in my grubby little hands an Elektronika MK-85 calculator, > which externally is a spot-on clone of the Casio FX-700P BASIC > programmable calculator. Functionally, it's identical as well, with a > few enhancements (pixel-addressable graphics, a Cyrillic > character-set, etc) Pixel-addressable characters. I wouldn't really call it "graphics" since there are gaps between the character cells. > Internally though, they're 100% different -- the processor in the > MK-85 is a Russian PDP-11 knockoff. There is also the MK-90, with a larger graphics display and removable RAM cartridges. Purportedly came with a RAM cartridge containing a Tetris game, but there are no known surviving copies of the game. Eric From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 10 15:37:19 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 13:37:19 -0700 Subject: Nearly there with IBM 029 KeyPunch In-Reply-To: <04F4F247-EE9B-4C77-BFAE-78FE1316883F@microspot.co.uk> References: , <04F4F247-EE9B-4C77-BFAE-78FE1316883F@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <4A2FB70F.27563.2F5A6EB6@cclist.sydex.com> Silly question, Roger... What is the AC line voltage at the keypunch? At the time that punch was made "nominal" nameplate voltage was about 117VAC. It's crept up a bit over the years to 120VAC (I just measured the voltage at an outlet here and it's 126VAC). --Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Jun 10 15:39:16 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 13:39:16 -0700 Subject: Who's dead? (was RE: UNIX V7) In-Reply-To: <1244633106.5593.11.camel@elric> References: <200906092346.20414.pat@computer-refuge.org> <1244633106.5593.11.camel@elric> Message-ID: <4A3019F4.3050606@brouhaha.com> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > There's even a > fairly "early days yet" OS/2 clone - anyone fancy porting it to a PDP11? > Why, when there are much nicer operating systems already running on the PDP-11? From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Jun 10 15:51:19 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 13:51:19 -0700 Subject: Nearly there with IBM 029 KeyPunch References: <04F4F247-EE9B-4C77-BFAE-78FE1316883F@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <4A301CC7.6F05E6BA@cs.ubc.ca> Roger Holmes wrote: > > The theory said to change the resonant frequency of my keypunch's > ferro-resonant power regulator from 60Hz to 50Hz I should up the 15uF > capacitor to 21.6 uF. Well I tried 21.5, and the voltage went up by > ONE volt. Hmm, scratch head, at least it went in the right direction. > Search around for AC capacitors and find one in a defunct large > electric lawnmower. Its 30uF, I think about replacing the 15 with it > but if an extra 6.5uF only gained one volt, and I need 6 then it > seemed reasonable to combine it and try 45 uF. That gives me 46volts, > only 2 volts short. I throw in the 6.5uF too and I get 47 volts. I try I had a niggling concern about this when the suggestion to change the C was first profferred. I don't have a thorough enough understanding of the ferro-resonant principle to categorically say what the problem is but I can half-think of a few possible issues: - Because the ferroresonance principle involves the inductor working in the core saturation region, the standard resonance equation with which you calculated the new C may not be applicable. (I see you got the square of f proportion.) - If the changed LC relationship changes the circulating current in the LC circuit then the core magnetic field will also be affected, which would upset the rest of the transformer design targets. - Changing the C changes the resonant frequency in an LC circuit, as you desire to accomplish. However, the Q factor of the resonant circuit is dependant upon the ratio of L/C, so you have also changed the Q factor. I'm less sure if this would matter, as the circuit is operating at a well-fixed frequency. My remaining concern might be that even with the new C bringing the V up, the regulation function of the supply may have been lost if the transformer is no longer functioning in the regions it was designed to. From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Jun 10 16:08:15 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 14:08:15 -0700 Subject: Windows for critical infrastructure (was Re: UNIX V7) In-Reply-To: <511C333C-C22A-4543-A90E-8224D298B05E@neurotica.com> References: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net> <4A2EB8A8.6050609@gmail.com> <7d3530220906091349kd5cc64dkc36ed0d7906a1ddb@mail.gmail.com> <4A2ECFB9.3030309@gmail.com> <4A2FD370.6010402@gmail.com> <511C333C-C22A-4543-A90E-8224D298B05E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4A3020BF.6010201@brouhaha.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > Do these people really believe PCs running Windows process their bank > transactions, maintain hospital databases, or run railroads? Unfortunately there actually ARE hospitals using Windows servers for their critical infrastructure. I've seen them, and I've seen what happens when they blue-screen. I've heard stories about banks that have migrated their transaction processing from IBM mainframes to Windows, but they may just be stories. I have no idea what railroads are using. The US Navy at one point was switching from Unix to Windows. They had major problems with this on the USS Yorktown, and had to tow it back to port. I don't know whether they've completed the switch. "We are putting equipment in the engine room that we cannot maintain and, when it fails, results in a critical failure" -- Anthony DiGiorgio, civilian engineer with the Atlantic Fleet Technical Support Center in Norfolk "Although Unix is more reliable, NT may become more reliable with time." -- Ron Redman, deputy director of the Fleet Introduction Division of the Aegis Program Executive Office Redman said that NT had been chosen for political rather than technical reasons. Where's the line between stupidity and treason? It's been more recently reported that the British Royal Navy is using Windows to run their nuclear submarines. One of the best reasons not to use Windows for critical infrastructure has nothing to do with flaws in Windows. Over and over again I've seen people have failures of Windows-based systems that were intended to serve a single purpose, such as control the HVAC systems for a large building, because some damn fool thought it would be a good idea to install a bunch of extra software on them, including games, and various random software downloaded from the Internet. Eric From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jun 10 16:20:01 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:20:01 -0600 Subject: UNIX V7 In-Reply-To: <4A2FD370.6010402@gmail.com> References: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net> <4A2EB8A8.6050609@gmail.com> <7d3530220906091349kd5cc64dkc36ed0d7906a1ddb@mail.gmail.com> <4A2ECFB9.3030309@gmail.com> <4A2FD370.6010402@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A302381.6040000@jetnet.ab.ca> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I hate statements like this. Died like what OSes? MVS? VM? VSE? > There are a bunch of OSes from back then which are still around. > > Peace... Sridhar And I still have learn OS/8 ... no Mac here, No coco ... Just a Plain Jane PDP -8 qnd IDE drive. From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jun 10 16:16:09 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 14:16:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: UNIX V7 In-Reply-To: <1244661877.9042.14.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> References: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net> <4A2EB8A8.6050609@gmail.com> <7d3530220906091349kd5cc64dkc36ed0d7906a1ddb@mail.gmail.com> <4A2ECFB9.3030309@gmail.com> <4A2FD370.6010402@gmail.com> <511C333C-C22A-4543-A90E-8224D298B05E@neurotica.com> <1244661877.9042.14.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 10 Jun 2009, Brian Wheeler wrote: > As one of the Penguin Crowd, I agree. The local linux user's group > seems to be filled with people more interested in flashy gui stuff than > understanding how the system works. > > Asking any kind of technical question of them usually meets with > silence. I guess if I asked about configuring compiz or upping my FPS > I'd get a lot of answers. I haven't considered myself to be part of the "Linux Community" for a very long time. I've been involved with Linux since January of '92, and I'm typing this on a Linux box. Having said that I've been disgusted with the attitude of the community since some time in the '98 timeframe. Don't even get me started on RMS, as I view him and his Cult as being a large part of the problem. The level of fanaticism and hatred of commercial software really turns me off. Something else that irritates me is that Linux programmers seem to be just as bad about writing non-portable code as Windows programmers. This is the main reason I continue to use Linux at home at all. I'd much rather simply go with Mac OS X (which is now my primary UNIX platform at home), and I'd just as soon use OpenBSD, Solaris, or even IRIX. OTOH, I'd rather run Linux than AIX or HP-UX, but that's just a question of preferences. :-) At the same time a *LOT* of good has come out of the Linux community, and a lot of really awesome pieces of software. The same can even be said about Microsoft. While I hate Microsoft, I have to admit they have some really nice developers tools. I for one really like the C# work that has been done both by Microsoft and the Mono teams. An interesting way of looking at this would be to voice my key dislikes for the various OS's I currently use. Windows - It is a mess, and it is Microsoft Mac OS X - It is a resource hog, and I question the efficiency of the microkernal, especially based on tests against Linux. Linux - The community (I have some performance complaints, but am not sure how accurate they still are) OpenBSD - Theo de Raadt doing things that harm the project OpenVMS - The Corporation(s) owning it trying to kill it and starving it for resources. I fear that HP has decided to kill it off, in a slow and painful manner. Solaris - I'm concerned about its continued viability, as such I'm less likely to use it in the future. Other OS's Amiga OS - Not practical, I'm not sure if you can even get V4.x, or the hardware to run it on at this time. I'm stuck at V3.9 due to my best machine being an Amiga 3000. Lack of user base. OpenBeOS - Not sure if that's the right name, but I really need to check out the current state. Lack of user base. AROS - I continue to keep an eye on this. Lack of user base. IRIX - I wish it wasn't a dead end, as it is really an amazing OS and it ran on amazing hardware. TOPS-20 - Again I wish it wasn't a dead end. Zane From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jun 10 16:25:26 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 14:25:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: UNIX V7 In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Jun 10, 9 02:16:09 pm" Message-ID: <200906102125.n5ALPQxO014236@floodgap.com> > microkernal, I can tell you've been using Commodores too long ;-) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- there's a dance or two in the old dame yet. -- mehitabel ------------------- From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 16:23:52 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 16:23:52 -0500 Subject: Who's dead? (was RE: UNIX V7) In-Reply-To: <4A3019F4.3050606@brouhaha.com> References: <200906092346.20414.pat@computer-refuge.org> <1244633106.5593.11.camel@elric> <4A3019F4.3050606@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4A302468.4070102@gmail.com> Eric Smith wrote: > Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >> There's even a >> fairly "early days yet" OS/2 clone - anyone fancy porting it to a PDP11? >> > Why, when there are much nicer operating systems already running on the > PDP-11? Oh come on, it'll be good, I'm sure. Not sure what the preferred distribution media should be - TK50 tape, perhaps? :-) From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Wed Jun 10 16:29:09 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 14:29:09 -0700 Subject: Windows for critical infrastructure (was Re: UNIX V7) In-Reply-To: <4A3020BF.6010201@brouhaha.com> References: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net> <4A2EB8A8.6050609@gmail.com> <7d3530220906091349kd5cc64dkc36ed0d7906a1ddb@mail.gmail.com> <4A2ECFB9.3030309@gmail.com> <4A2FD370.6010402@gmail.com> <511C333C-C22A-4543-A90E-8224D298B05E@neurotica.com> <4A3020BF.6010201@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <2273625B-B44B-4249-B450-0F4A0FD856D0@mail.msu.edu> Can we please -not- have this conversation again? We just had one last month and it has just as little to do with classic computing as it did then. On Jun 10, 2009, at 2:08 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Dave McGuire wrote: >> Do these people really believe PCs running Windows process their >> bank transactions, maintain hospital databases, or run railroads? > Unfortunately there actually ARE hospitals using Windows servers for > their critical infrastructure. I've seen them, and I've seen what > happens when they blue-screen. > > I've heard stories about banks that have migrated their transaction > processing from IBM mainframes to Windows, but they may just be > stories. > > I have no idea what railroads are using. > > The US Navy at one point was switching from Unix to Windows. They > had major problems with this on the USS Yorktown, and had to tow it > back to port. I don't know whether they've completed the switch. > > "We are putting equipment in the engine room that we cannot > maintain > and, when it fails, results in a critical failure" > -- Anthony DiGiorgio, civilian engineer with the Atlantic > Fleet > Technical Support Center in Norfolk > > "Although Unix is more reliable, NT may become more reliable > with time." > -- Ron Redman, deputy director of the Fleet Introduction > Division > of the Aegis Program Executive Office > > Redman said that NT had been chosen for political rather than > technical reasons. Where's the line between stupidity and treason? > > It's been more recently reported that the British Royal Navy is > using Windows to run their nuclear submarines. > > One of the best reasons not to use Windows for critical > infrastructure has nothing to do with flaws in Windows. Over and > over again I've seen people have failures of Windows-based systems > that were intended to serve a single purpose, such as control the > HVAC systems for a large building, because some damn fool thought it > would be a good idea to install a bunch of extra software on them, > including games, and various random software downloaded from the > Internet. > > Eric > > From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 16:30:54 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 16:30:54 -0500 Subject: Oddest mismatch in hardware for a given purpose... In-Reply-To: <200906101326.n5ADQtmi015936@floodgap.com> References: <200906101326.n5ADQtmi015936@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4A30260E.2010802@gmail.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Right, you could do this on a C64 also and probably many machines, but this > was just a convenient means of storage -- execution of arbitrary ML was > still permitted by the interpreter. The MK-85 hack is noteworthy because it > allows you to run stuff on the CPU even though the BASIC supposedly doesn't > let you (no CALL, SYS, USR(), etc). Yes, the one I'm remembering was similar to that - I wish I could remember more, but it was entered via some function which had a utterly different purpose during normal use, but invoked in a certain way it could be used to run sequences of MC. Dave's message rings a bell though, in that I think the actual MC data was encoded into a character string (possibly as a REM statement, but I can't be sure). If my memory coughs up the name of the system I'll shout :-) From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 16:36:13 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 17:36:13 -0400 Subject: Windows for critical infrastructure (was Re: UNIX V7) In-Reply-To: <4A3020BF.6010201@brouhaha.com> References: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net> <4A2EB8A8.6050609@gmail.com> <7d3530220906091349kd5cc64dkc36ed0d7906a1ddb@mail.gmail.com> <4A2ECFB9.3030309@gmail.com> <4A2FD370.6010402@gmail.com> <511C333C-C22A-4543-A90E-8224D298B05E@neurotica.com> <4A3020BF.6010201@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > The US Navy at one point was switching from Unix to Windows. ?They had major > problems with this on the USS Yorktown, and had to tow it back to port. ?I > don't know whether they've completed the switch. That wiki entry seems a little biased, doesn't it? ALL ships in the US Navy have an incredible amount of redundancy, and there are always ways to go two or three technology generations back to get things back up in running. The idea that somehow this network was such a single point of failure to the point that the ship was dead in the water just STINKS of being urban legend. Did something fail? Sure - this was a test bed, and these things are supposed to fail. And when they fail, the engineers scour over the results and do not get into emergency mode. It already seems like the whole towing claim is dubious at best. A -- Will From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 16:34:30 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 16:34:30 -0500 Subject: Oddest mismatch in hardware for a given purpose... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A3026E6.9040807@gmail.com> Shoppa, Tim wrote: > The joke in the cold war era was this: Heh, that's interesting - I've only ever heard a variant of that, told about a watch at a large airport, which presumably makes it a bit more recent. Funny how these things get recycled over the years... From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 16:38:10 2009 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 14:38:10 -0700 Subject: UNIX V7 In-Reply-To: References: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net> <7d3530220906091349kd5cc64dkc36ed0d7906a1ddb@mail.gmail.com> <4A2ECFB9.3030309@gmail.com> <4A2FD370.6010402@gmail.com> <511C333C-C22A-4543-A90E-8224D298B05E@neurotica.com> <1244661877.9042.14.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> Message-ID: Ok, gotta throw my 2 cents in here... :) On Wed, Jun 10, 2009 at 2:16 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > On Wed, 10 Jun 2009, Brian Wheeler wrote: > >> As one of the Penguin Crowd, I agree. ?The local linux user's group >> seems to be filled with people more interested in flashy gui stuff than >> understanding how the system works. >> >> Asking any kind of technical question of them usually meets with >> silence. ?I guess if I asked about configuring compiz or upping my FPS >> I'd get a lot of answers. > > I haven't considered myself to be part of the "Linux Community" for a very > long time. ?I've been involved with Linux since January of '92, and I'm > typing this on a Linux box. ?Having said that I've been disgusted with the > attitude of the community since some time in the '98 timeframe. ?Don't even > get me started on RMS, as I view him and his Cult as being a large part of > the problem. ?The level of fanaticism and hatred of commercial software > really turns me off. No kidding. I remember booting the Linux kernel on floppies (I think it was v0.99 or something like that), and I also remember the joy I felt when I booted Yggdrasil Linux and saw X come up. Before that, I had to use either SCO Open Desktop or Interactive ix/386 (both of which were horribly expensive) on my Northgate 386. I also can agree about RMS... I find him somewhat irritating, but I have to give the guy credit for sticking to his principles. He really believes what he says. The attitude of the community can be horrible. > Something else that irritates me is that Linux programmers seem to be just > as bad about writing non-portable code as Windows programmers. ?This is the > main reason I continue to use Linux at home at all. ?I'd much rather simply > go with Mac OS X (which is now my primary UNIX platform at home), and I'd > just as soon use OpenBSD, Solaris, or even IRIX. ?OTOH, I'd rather run Linux > than AIX or HP-UX, but that's just a question of preferences. :-) Oh, if I could, I'd haul one of my HP PA-RISC boxes down to work and use that, but I work for McAfee and security about hardware here is incredibly tight. I could easily bring it in here, but it would be a major pain to get it back out of the building. > At the same time a *LOT* of good has come out of the Linux community, and a > lot of really awesome pieces of software. ?The same can even be said about > Microsoft. ?While I hate Microsoft, I have to admit they have some really > nice developers tools. ?I for one really like the C# work that has been done > both by Microsoft and the Mono teams. Agreed. I'm no fan of MS and I do have quite a bit of experience with Windows. I spent 13 years writing code for Win16 and Win32, and when they put their minds to it they can produce some cool stuff. > An interesting way of looking at this would be to voice my key dislikes for > the various OS's I currently use. > Windows ?- It is a mess, and it is Microsoft Yow. Vista. > Mac OS X - It is a resource hog, and I question the efficiency of the > microkernal, especially based on tests against Linux. True, but what a development framework! :) > Linux ? ?- The community (I have some performance complaints, but am not > sure how accurate they still are) The community wants to be on top but all the infighting is killing that. > OpenBSD ?- Theo de Raadt doing things that harm the project No comment. :) > OpenVMS ?- The Corporation(s) owning it trying to kill it and starving it > for resources. ?I fear that HP has decided to kill it off, in a slow and > painful manner. Yes, but at least you can get a decent semi-free license for it. > Solaris ?- I'm concerned about its continued viability, as such I'm less > likely to use it in the future. I'd love to see this continue... OpenSolaris can be a lot of fun. > IRIX ? ? - I wish it wasn't a dead end, as it is really an amazing OS and it > ran on amazing hardware. Damn... you hit that one on the head. Mark From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 16:39:49 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 17:39:49 -0400 Subject: Windows for critical infrastructure (was Re: UNIX V7) In-Reply-To: References: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net> <4A2EB8A8.6050609@gmail.com> <7d3530220906091349kd5cc64dkc36ed0d7906a1ddb@mail.gmail.com> <4A2ECFB9.3030309@gmail.com> <4A2FD370.6010402@gmail.com> <511C333C-C22A-4543-A90E-8224D298B05E@neurotica.com> <4A3020BF.6010201@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: DAMMIT, SENT TOO EARLY! A retry: That wiki entry seems a little biased, doesn't it? ALL ships in the US Navy have an incredible amount of redundancy, and there are always ways to go two or three technology generations back to get things back up in running. The idea that somehow this network was such a single point of failure to the point that the ship was dead in the water just STINKS of being urban legend. Did something fail? Sure - this was a test bed, and these things are supposed to fail. And when they fail, the engineers scour over the results and do not get into emergency mode. It already seems like the whole towing claim is dubious at best. And it seems like some of the people quoted may have an axe to grind. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 10 16:43:53 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 17:43:53 -0400 Subject: Windows for critical infrastructure (was Re: UNIX V7) In-Reply-To: References: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net> <4A2EB8A8.6050609@gmail.com> <7d3530220906091349kd5cc64dkc36ed0d7906a1ddb@mail.gmail.com> <4A2ECFB9.3030309@gmail.com> <4A2FD370.6010402@gmail.com> <511C333C-C22A-4543-A90E-8224D298B05E@neurotica.com> <4A3020BF.6010201@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <028D3888-837C-40DD-8888-11BB1A818334@neurotica.com> On Jun 10, 2009, at 5:36 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> The US Navy at one point was switching from Unix to Windows. They >> had major >> problems with this on the USS Yorktown, and had to tow it back to >> port. I >> don't know whether they've completed the switch. > > That wiki entry seems a little biased, doesn't it? If "showing a failure of Windows" means "biased", yes. > ALL ships in the US Navy have an incredible amount of redundancy, and > there are always ways to go two or three technology generations back > to get things back up in running. The idea that somehow this network > was such a single point of failure to the point that the ship was dead > in the water just STINKS of being urban legend. I saw it on CNN when it happened. > Did something fail? > Sure - this was a test bed, and these things are supposed to fail. And > when they fail, the engineers scour over the results and do not get > into emergency mode. It already seems like the whole towing claim is > dubious at best. A Sorry, it happened. Unless the whole thing was a hoax, complete with pictures. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 10 16:44:23 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 17:44:23 -0400 Subject: Who's dead? (was RE: UNIX V7) In-Reply-To: <4A302468.4070102@gmail.com> References: <200906092346.20414.pat@computer-refuge.org> <1244633106.5593.11.camel@elric> <4A3019F4.3050606@brouhaha.com> <4A302468.4070102@gmail.com> Message-ID: <85B07DDC-4268-42C6-8DB8-59677A893319@neurotica.com> On Jun 10, 2009, at 5:23 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: >>> There's even a >>> fairly "early days yet" OS/2 clone - anyone fancy porting it to a >>> PDP11? >>> >> Why, when there are much nicer operating systems already running >> on the PDP-11? > > Oh come on, it'll be good, I'm sure. Not sure what the preferred > distribution media should be - TK50 tape, perhaps? :-) ROFL!! -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Jun 10 16:56:59 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 22:56:59 +0100 Subject: UNIX V7 In-Reply-To: References: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net> <4A2EB8A8.6050609@gmail.com> <7d3530220906091349kd5cc64dkc36ed0d7906a1ddb@mail.gmail.com> <4A2ECFB9.3030309@gmail.com> <4A2FD370.6010402@gmail.com> <511C333C-C22A-4543-A90E-8224D298B05E@neurotica.com> <1244661877.9042.14.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> Message-ID: <1244671019.5593.29.camel@elric> On Wed, 2009-06-10 at 14:16 -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Something else that irritates me is that Linux programmers seem to be just > as bad about writing non-portable code as Windows programmers. One of the problems I ran into with a couple of packages I wrote was Debian "maintainers" buggering about with stuff to get it to compile on all supported platforms and not passing changes back to me. I wouldn't have minded so much, but the software was *specifically* only intended for use on a PC or (at a pinch) a Mac with a serious audio card. Why they were bitching about it being able to compile on S390 or MIPSEL, I really don't know. It hasn't a hope in hell of being useful on anything other than a PC. Gordon From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Jun 10 16:58:49 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 14:58:49 -0700 Subject: Windows for critical infrastructure (was Re: UNIX V7) In-Reply-To: References: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net> <4A2EB8A8.6050609@gmail.com> <7d3530220906091349kd5cc64dkc36ed0d7906a1ddb@mail.gmail.com> <4A2ECFB9.3030309@gmail.com> <4A2FD370.6010402@gmail.com> <511C333C-C22A-4543-A90E-8224D298B05E@neurotica.com> <4A3020BF.6010201@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4A302C99.3000204@brouhaha.com> William Donzelli wrote: > That wiki entry seems a little biased, doesn't it? What wiki entry? The story was in the mainstream news at the time; I first read it in the local newspaper. I have no doubt that it's covered in one or more wikis somewhere, but I haven't seen them. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 17:03:38 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 18:03:38 -0400 Subject: Windows for critical infrastructure (was Re: UNIX V7) In-Reply-To: <028D3888-837C-40DD-8888-11BB1A818334@neurotica.com> References: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net> <4A2EB8A8.6050609@gmail.com> <7d3530220906091349kd5cc64dkc36ed0d7906a1ddb@mail.gmail.com> <4A2ECFB9.3030309@gmail.com> <4A2FD370.6010402@gmail.com> <511C333C-C22A-4543-A90E-8224D298B05E@neurotica.com> <4A3020BF.6010201@brouhaha.com> <028D3888-837C-40DD-8888-11BB1A818334@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > ?Sorry, it happened. ?Unless the whole thing was a hoax, complete with > pictures. Do you know *anything* about Naval ships and machinery? Forget it. I give up. I am wasting my time. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 10 17:11:30 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 18:11:30 -0400 Subject: Windows for critical infrastructure (was Re: UNIX V7) In-Reply-To: References: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net> <4A2EB8A8.6050609@gmail.com> <7d3530220906091349kd5cc64dkc36ed0d7906a1ddb@mail.gmail.com> <4A2ECFB9.3030309@gmail.com> <4A2FD370.6010402@gmail.com> <511C333C-C22A-4543-A90E-8224D298B05E@neurotica.com> <4A3020BF.6010201@brouhaha.com> <028D3888-837C-40DD-8888-11BB1A818334@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Jun 10, 2009, at 6:03 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Sorry, it happened. Unless the whole thing was a hoax, complete >> with >> pictures. > > Do you know *anything* about Naval ships and machinery? Likely not as much as you do, but I worked in weapons and countermeasures design for a few years. I'm not without exposure to the defense industry. > Forget it. I give up. I am wasting my time. Apparently. Go look up the news archives for the Yorktown story. Read the facts before you make assumptions and accuse people of not knowing what they're talking about just because you don't like what they're saying. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dundas at caltech.edu Wed Jun 10 17:10:21 2009 From: dundas at caltech.edu (John A. Dundas III) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:10:21 -0700 Subject: Help with MS11-M and /24 or /44 Message-ID: Does anyone have a pair of (working) MS11-M memory modules (any size, both the same) in a PDP-11/24 or /44? [I believe those were the only models to support that memory.] If so, could I talk to you offline about how they interleave? Background: I'm working on a memory simulator for SIMH (PDP-11). I have it working with most parity memory models and the ECC models as well. [The MS11-M uses 7-bit ECC.] I have the MS11-M successfully simulated in a non-interleaved manner now. I'm struggling with getting interleaving to work correctly with the diagnostics. What I'd like to do is give someone a short fragment of code to execute on their machine and let me know the results. This would help me finish the simulation. Yes, I have carefully examined the documents Manx turns up, but that information is not sufficient for my needs. Alternatively, if someone had the listings for either XXDP diagnostics ZMSDD0 or ZMSPC0, that would also likely solve the problems I'm encountering. As a teaser, here's SIMH simulating a /44 with 2 MS11-M (128kW) modules, non-interleaved: .R ZMSDD0 ZMSDD0.BIN CZMSDD - MS11L/M MEMORY DIAGNOSTIC 11/44 CACHE AVAILABLE FS COMMAND MODE COMMAND:99 COMMANDS AVAILABLE: 0 = EXIT 1 = READ CSR 2 = LOAD CSR 3 = EXAMINE MEMORY 4 = MODIFY MEMORY 5 = SELECT BANK & PATTERN 6 = TYPE CONFIG MAP 7 = SOB-A-LONG TEST 8 = ERROR SUMMARY 9= REFRESH TEST 10= SET FILL COUNT 11= ENTER KAMIKAZE MODE 12= EXIT KAMIKAZE MODE 13= TURN CACHE OFF 14= TURN CACHE ON 15= TEST SELECTED BANKS 16= TEST ALL BANKS 17= ENABLE TRACE 18= DISABLE TRACE COMMAND:11 ENTERING KAMIKAZE MODE COMMAND: LEAVING FS MODE 256K OF MS11-M 256K WORDS OF MEMORY TOTAL MEMORY CONFIGURATION MAP 16K WORD BANKS 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 012345670123456701234567012345670123456701234567012345670123 ERRORS CPU MAP 1111111111111111 INTRLV ---------------- MEMTYPE MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM CSR 0000000011111111 PROTECT PP I END PASS # 1 END PASS # 2 Thanks, John From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 10 17:18:08 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 18:18:08 -0400 Subject: early PA-RISC machines Message-ID: Hey PA-RISC aficionados. Was there in fact a production PA-RISC machine whose CPU was implemented with standard TTL chips? If so, which one, and does anyone have one that they'd like to trade away? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Wed Jun 10 17:18:27 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:18:27 -0700 Subject: Windows for critical infrastructure (was Re: UNIX V7) In-Reply-To: References: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net> <4A2EB8A8.6050609@gmail.com> <7d3530220906091349kd5cc64dkc36ed0d7906a1ddb@mail.gmail.com> <4A2ECFB9.3030309@gmail.com> <4A2FD370.6010402@gmail.com> <511C333C-C22A-4543-A90E-8224D298B05E@neurotica.com> <4A3020BF.6010201@brouhaha.com> <028D3888-837C-40DD-8888-11BB1A818334@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <10F0EF4A-AD31-428A-9D90-334143CB28CD@mail.msu.edu> On Jun 10, 2009, at 3:11 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jun 10, 2009, at 6:03 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >>> Sorry, it happened. Unless the whole thing was a hoax, complete >>> with >>> pictures. >> >> Do you know *anything* about Naval ships and machinery? > > Likely not as much as you do, but I worked in weapons and > countermeasures design for a few years. I'm not without exposure to > the defense industry. > >> Forget it. I give up. I am wasting my time. > > Apparently. Go look up the news archives for the Yorktown story. > Read the facts before you make assumptions and accuse people of not > knowing what they're talking about just because you don't like what > they're saying. > I've never seen an explanation of what the failure actually was, just lots of articles stating that Windows NT was being used as the OS and - something- went wrong. It could just as easily have been buggy client software that crashed. The Wired article I read says "They [naval engineers] rushed this stuff on the ship, there was no real prototype and then they tried to make things work as they went along...". I will let you draw your conclusions from that. Oh. It also says "the source of the problem was bad data fed to an APPLICATION running..." which caused whatever ad-hoc network they were running to crash... Whether this was an NT bug or not is indeterminate... No further details are available. > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Wed Jun 10 17:25:37 2009 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:25:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Yorktown Message-ID: <181555.91844.qm@web112208.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> http://gcn.com/articles/1998/08/31/smart-ship-inquiry-a-go.aspx Can this end now? --- On Wed, 6/10/09, Dave McGuire wrote: > From: Dave McGuire > Subject: Re: Windows for critical infrastructure (was Re: UNIX V7) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Wednesday, June 10, 2009, 5:43 PM > On Jun 10, 2009, at 5:36 PM, William > Donzelli wrote: > >> The US Navy at one point was switching from Unix > to Windows.? They had major > >> problems with this on the USS Yorktown, and had to > tow it back to port.? I > >> don't know whether they've completed the switch. > > > > That wiki entry seems a little biased, doesn't it? > > ? If "showing a failure of Windows" means "biased", > yes. > > > ALL ships in the US Navy have an incredible amount of > redundancy, and > > there are always ways to go two or three technology > generations back > > to get things back up in running. The idea that > somehow this network > > was such a single point of failure to the point that > the ship was dead > > in the water just STINKS of being urban legend. > > ? I saw it on CNN when it happened. > > > Did something fail? > > Sure - this was a test bed, and these things are > supposed to fail. And > > when they fail, the engineers scour over the results > and do not get > > into emergency mode. It already seems like the whole > towing claim is > > dubious at best. A > > ? Sorry, it happened.? Unless the whole thing was > a hoax, complete with pictures. > > ? ? ? ???-Dave > > --Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Jun 10 17:25:47 2009 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:25:47 -0700 Subject: early PA-RISC machines In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4A3032EB.30502@brouhaha.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > Hey PA-RISC aficionados. Was there in fact a production PA-RISC > machine whose CPU was implemented with standard TTL chips? If so, > which one, Yes, the "Indigo", HP 9000 model 840 and HP 3000 model 930. > and does anyone have one that they'd like to trade away? I doubt that there are many around. I know someone who has one, but he intends to donate it to the Computer History Museum. (Or maybe he already has done so.) Eric From gyorpb at gmail.com Wed Jun 10 17:30:15 2009 From: gyorpb at gmail.com (Joost van de Griek) Date: Thu, 11 Jun 2009 00:30:15 +0200 Subject: Windows for critical infrastructure (was Re: UNIX V7) In-Reply-To: <4A3020BF.6010201@brouhaha.com> References: <4A2EAE3F.60909@vaxen.net> <4A2EB8A8.6050609@gmail.com> <7d3530220906091349kd5cc64dkc36ed0d7906a1ddb@mail.gmail.com> <4A2ECFB9.3030309@gmail.com> <4A2FD370.6010402@gmail.com> <511C333C-C22A-4543-A90E-8224D298B05E@neurotica.com> <4A3020BF.6010201@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <1BAC2F3D-820E-4575-AB46-A9B82FBC63FB@gmail.com> On Jun 10, 2009, at 23:08, Eric Smith wrote: > I've heard stories about banks that have migrated their transaction > processing from IBM mainframes to Windows, but they may just be > stories. Every now and then, I run into one of those morons that plans to "streamline" or "optimise" IT operations by standardising on a single platform... Heh. "Show me a Windows machine that can run your monthly prolongation batch run and finish /before/ the next weekend, and I might stop calling you a moron for proposing things like that, moron. Until such time, I think we'll keep the high-volume databases on real iron and keep calling you a moron." .tsooJ -- Dog: They feed me, pet me, groom me, love me - they must be gods! Cat: They feed me, pet me, groom me, love me - I must be a god! -- Joost van de Griek From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 10 17:38:24 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:38:24 -0700 Subject: Oddest mismatch in hardware for a given purpose... In-Reply-To: <4A3026E6.9040807@gmail.com> References: , <4A3026E6.9040807@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4A2FD370.17280.2FC951AC@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Jun 2009 at 16:34, Jules Richardson wrote: > Heh, that's interesting - I've only ever heard a variant of that, told > about a > watch at a large airport, which presumably makes it a bit more > recent. Funny > how these things get recycled over the years... Heh, I received a Dilbert version of the joke in my inbox today from EDN. Dilbert is talking to his pointy-haired boss: PHB: "We ship our new MP3 player in two days. How's the Elbonian factory coming along? D: "The prototype is the size of a small tractor and it will only play Elbonian polkas." PHB: "I'll budget a little extra for marketing." D: "It's made of asbestos." --Chuck From lists at databasics.us Wed Jun 10 18:05:37 2009 From: lists at databasics.us (Warren Wolfe) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 13:05:37 -1000 Subject: IBM 029 progress In-Reply-To: <4A2DFC82.60800@brouhaha.com> References: <88A1FADA-91E0-4205-942E-D03FC5322C59@microspot.co.uk> <4A2DCA36.2050104@databasics.us> <613C55B1C8DC4BCE96C746F3440AF661@udvikling> <4A2DFC82.60800@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4A303C41.9090402@databasics.us> Eric Smith wrote: > Nico de Jong wrote: >> I wonder how many Farads a car battery helds Nico > If you empty it out and fill it with capacitors, it will hold a few > megafarads at 2 volts. Erm... I doubt this. I saw a 2 farad cap at a surplus place in Lima, Ohio. It was rated at 12 volts, and looked like a sawed-off oil drum. I think there's some sort of square-cube thing going on here that makes ever-increasing values of capacitance ever huger. Warren From lists at databasics.us Wed Jun 10 18:05:45 2009 From: lists at databasics.us (Warren Wolfe) Date: Wed, 10 Jun 2009 13:05:45 -1000 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_Remembering_the_true*_first_por?= =?windows-1252?Q?table_computer_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: References: <4A2D74F1.2090104@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <4A303C49.4000903@databasics.us> William Donzelli wrote: >> And on the last page, they give credit to CHM for letting them "drool >> over the machinery": >> >> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/06/05/tob_minuteman_1/ >> > > One has to take everything about missile tech history as if it has a > huge red flag on it. The guidance computer from the article is a real > oddball, in that it is one of the missile subsystems that somehow > managed to get out into the public. Most never did, nor any > documentation, and what little is still around is perilously close to > being lost. Was there a missile guidance computer