From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Jan 1 06:38:54 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 07:38:54 -0500 Subject: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: <495BCFD2.8000105@gmail.com> References: <495AAB15.7080103@e-bbes.com> from "e.stiebler" at Dec 30, 8 04:13:25 pm, <495B5B5F.29096.188C487D@cclist.sydex.com> <495BCFD2.8000105@gmail.com> Message-ID: <495CB95E.80707@gmail.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 31 Dec 2008 at 18:52, Tony Duell wrote: >> >>> Hnag on a second. Last week yopu were all telling me that I could >>> program just about any modern microcontroller using whatever classic >>> computer I liked. Now you're telling me I have to use C (and >>> presumably have some machine that can host the C compiler). Which is >>> it? :-) >> >> Are there any uCs made that don't have an assembly language? > > That possibly depends on the definition of assembly. To me it's > something along the lines of "the lowest-level instructions that can be > fed to the CPU" (even if those instructions might be quite involved and > do multiple things), so it's hard to imagine a CPU that didn't > essentially support assembly. IBM mainframe architecture resembles this remark. Evidenced by the instructions for unpacking packed-decimal numbers, stripping off leading zeros, putting a dollar-sign in front of the whole thing, and storing the result. All in a single instruction. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Jan 1 06:42:14 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 07:42:14 -0500 Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: <495B818C.32309.19216ECD@cclist.sydex.com> References: <495BCFD2.8000105@gmail.com> from Jules Richardson at "Dec 31, 8 02:02:26 pm", <200812312127.mBVLR8PQ014734@floodgap.com> <495B818C.32309.19216ECD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <495CBA26.5070107@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 31 Dec 2008 at 13:27, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >>> (Interesting question, though - I wonder what a CPU might look like where you >>> could just throw C source code at it, for instance :) >> Well, there *was* the AT&T Hobbit: >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AT%26T_Hobbit >> >> Not quite that, but still optimized for C, allegedly. Never worked with >> the architecture myself. > > Well, the Burroughs B5000 was purportedly an Algol machine; there > have been CPU designs to eat UCSD Pascal bytecodes and Java bytecodes > and there have been various LISP machines. But none, AFAIK, to > actually lexically parse program text input in hardware. I suppose > 1401 Autocoder might be in that league, if you consider Autocoder to > be a "language". The Timex TM100 chip does BASIC in hardware, but it doesn't parse the text itself... it requires a tokenized stream. Peace... Sridhar From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Jan 1 08:43:25 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 12:43:25 -0200 Subject: What kind of IC is this References: <495BD13B.4040604@gmail.com> Message-ID: <014a01c96c1f$6a00e7c0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> > I was worrying about my LVROM player a few weeks ago, but looking at board LD ROM? The big shiny disk? :oD This is something I'd love to see working :D I have a Laseractive with mega-drive/genesis pac, but no rom discs :( From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Jan 1 08:45:43 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 12:45:43 -0200 Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! References: <200812312127.mBVLR8PQ014734@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <016701c96c1f$d32fc900$46fea8c0@DeskJara> >> (Interesting question, though - I wonder what a CPU might look like where >> you >> could just throw C source code at it, for instance :) > Well, there *was* the AT&T Hobbit: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AT%26T_Hobbit > Not quite that, but still optimized for C, allegedly. Never worked with > the architecture myself. AVR microcontrollers are said optimized for C, but there is an excellent assembler, the AVR Studio. From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Jan 1 08:51:04 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 12:51:04 -0200 Subject: Eo's and Hobbits (was Re: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME!) References: <200812312127.mBVLR8PQ014734@floodgap.com> <495BF187.60600@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <017701c96c20$70ffdee0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> > The Newton of course had much better handwriting recognition, so the Eo > died (to be in turn killed by Palm), but despite that, Penpoint was an > interesting OS that had the look and feel of a paper organizer (tabs, > pages, etc. as opposed to desktop GUIs which appropriately use a > "desktop" metaphor.) The newton is the best, wonderful, no-words-to-describe thing I've ever seen, but killed just by two items: No conectivity and no PDF reading. I got one fairly complete (rechargeable battery, power supply, extra stylus, cover, 4MB card, modem card) and build inside a serial connector not to use the dammed dongle I didn't have (http://www.tabajara-labs.com.br/newton/serial/index.htm). But I never got around to connect it to one of my computers, and I **WONT** leave an old PC or MAC just to play with newton. It got axed. But What a portable computer... :o( From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Jan 1 08:54:20 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 12:54:20 -0200 Subject: BBC Second Processor Tube ULA (was Re: What kind of IC is this) References: <495C1080.6070803@gmail.com> Message-ID: <01af01c96c20$e5570b10$46fea8c0@DeskJara> > The problem is that very few people have both a grasp on that knowledge > and > the ability to do the necessary electronic design - it's only really worth > it > for a drop-in replacement (i.e. a single chip or a very small > daughter-board > to plug into the ULA's 40-pin to DIP socket) because (as Phil says) it'd > be a > reasonably large board to do it as discrete logic. This knowledge should be shared...One of the things I plan to do when I learn VHDL is to create a "for dummies" tutorial. But, if someone knows how to create a circuit using ttl gates, you can use one of the manufacturers' tools to change it to vhdl/bitstream. I use an altera tool where I can enter my design in schematics. All cpld/fpga manufacturers has this option. From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Jan 1 09:30:37 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 09:30:37 -0600 Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: <495CBA26.5070107@gmail.com> References: <495BCFD2.8000105@gmail.com> from Jules Richardson at "Dec 31, 8 02:02:26 pm", <200812312127.mBVLR8PQ014734@floodgap.com> <495B818C.32309.19216ECD@cclist.sydex.com> <495CBA26.5070107@gmail.com> Message-ID: <495CE19D.40607@pacbell.net> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: ... > > The Timex TM100 chip does BASIC in hardware, but it doesn't parse the > text itself... it requires a tokenized stream. I tried googling this, but find no references. Do you have any? When was it made? Who was the market? From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jan 1 09:48:41 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 07:48:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Eo's and Hobbits (was Re: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME!) In-Reply-To: <017701c96c20$70ffdee0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> from Alexandre Souza at "Jan 1, 9 12:51:04 pm" Message-ID: <200901011548.n01Fmf1F014970@floodgap.com> > The newton is the best, wonderful, no-words-to-describe thing I've ever > seen, but killed just by two items: No conectivity and no PDF reading. Actually, the pen OS I was the biggest fan of was Magic Cap. I have a DataRover 840 with an Ethernet card and it's rather fun. It even has a primitive web browser. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I shouldn't have to explain this to someone old enough to type. - S. Gardner From bob at jfcl.com Thu Jan 1 10:00:03 2009 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 08:00:03 -0800 Subject: T-11 (was Re: PDP-11/70 cache memory) Message-ID: <002101c96c2a$02369e90$06a3dbb0$@com> >bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >PS. Now only if BOB could make a PDP 11 kit . :( I think it'd be fun too, and if somebody else made one I'd buy one, but as a product - - there's no legal software you can run on the T11 (and no, RT11 isn't legal!) - there's no lights and switches front panel option for the T11 - there's no source for T11 chips except to steal them from old hardware like RQDX3s, etc Bob From emu at e-bbes.com Thu Jan 1 10:29:38 2009 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 09:29:38 -0700 Subject: T-11 (was Re: PDP-11/70 cache memory) In-Reply-To: <002101c96c2a$02369e90$06a3dbb0$@com> References: <002101c96c2a$02369e90$06a3dbb0$@com> Message-ID: <495CEF72.7060201@e-bbes.com> Bob Armstrong wrote: >> bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >> PS. Now only if BOB could make a PDP 11 kit . :( > I think it'd be fun too, and if somebody else made one I'd buy one, but as > a product - There was/is a design out there from a guy (Peter McCollum) who made a T11-SBC, and really got it working. He Wire-Wrapped it, but the schematics are somewhere on the net. Somebody just has to sit down and make a PCB out of it. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jan 1 11:48:50 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 09:48:50 -0800 Subject: Fairchild SYMBOL Message-ID: <495D0202.4070802@bitsavers.org> > Chapter 8 of "Advances in Computer Architecture" describes the SYMBOL computer, designed > and built buy Fairchild Camera, and operated at Iowa State. Only one was built. And that one is in the CHM collection. I have found some documentation for it, but no software. From rickb at bensene.com Thu Jan 1 11:51:35 2009 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 09:51:35 -0800 Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: <0KCS00A8P2TXXQH7@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0KCS00A8P2TXXQH7@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: Allison wrote: > Memory says there was a Wang machine that directly executed Basic. > Yes, the Wang 2200-series machines used a microcoded architecture that implemented a BASIC interpreter as a native "language". These machines were an extension of the architecture developed for the Wang 700-series electronic calculators. It's an interesting twist of fate. Wang hadn't intended to make an advanced scientific calculator, as the thought was that their 300-Series calculators were all that they needed. Dr. Wang felt that the important market was in computers, and had a development effort underway to make a computer that was to compete with IBM's System/360. It was Dr. Wang's intent to have Wang become the largest computer company in the world. However, when Hewlett Packard introduced the HP 9100A calculator, it immediately took most of the market share away from Wang in the scientific calculator marketplace, where Wang was the leader. This quickly put Wang into a cash crunch, as they had a hard time selling the 300-Series machines. The efforts to develop a computer were quickly re-targeted -- it was mandated that the basic computer design (a microcoded architecture) was to be refitted to serve as an advanced programmable calculator. This became the Wang 700-Series calculators (as well as follow-on machines such as the 500-Series, 600-Series, and later 400- and C-Series machines). While the 700-Series machines did help rescue Wang's calculator business, the real savior for Wang's stockholders was the introduction of Wang's word processing equipment, also based on much the same microcoded architecture as the 700-Series calculators. As it became clear that calculators were becoming a commodity market, driven mainly by semiconductor manufacturers who had the resources to fabricate LSI calculator chipsets, and later single-chip implementations, Wang Labs revisited building a computer at a much "smaller" level than going after IBM. The 2200-series BASIC computers (although Wang initially marketed them as "calculators") were the result. The architecture went from computer, to calculator, and back to computer, with sidelines into word processors. Check out Jim Battle's http://www.wang2200.org . There's even an emulator of the 2200 that actually runs the actual 2200 microcode! Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Jan 1 11:58:50 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 11:58:50 -0600 Subject: What kind of IC is this In-Reply-To: <014a01c96c1f$6a00e7c0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> References: <495BD13B.4040604@gmail.com> <014a01c96c1f$6a00e7c0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> Message-ID: <495D045A.6060000@gmail.com> Alexandre Souza wrote: >> I was worrying about my LVROM player a few weeks ago, but looking at >> board > > LD ROM? The big shiny disk? :oD Yep (well, LVROM in Philips' terminology, but same thing). They're awesome. > This is something I'd love to see working :D Hmm, well there's a working one at Bletchley in England if you ever get over there. One day I'll have mine shipped out to the US and have it running at a VCF... cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Jan 1 12:12:06 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 12:12:06 -0600 Subject: BBC Second Processor Tube ULA (was Re: What kind of IC is this) In-Reply-To: <495C1A72.7000201@philpem.me.uk> References: <495C1080.6070803@gmail.com> <495C1A72.7000201@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <495D0776.8040407@gmail.com> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: >> Not *completely*, AFAIK - although there are fragments all over the >> place. I think there's enough amassed wisdom around now that it >> *could* be done though, because the software to drive either side is >> understood enough, as is the electrical (physical) interface, and >> there are still survivors of all the vintage hardware which made use >> of the ULA. > > What's available appears to be fairly thin on the ground though. A quick > search on 'the bay' revealed tons of Master 128s and BBC Bs, but nary a > second processor in sight. Yeah, I sold a couple on there just over a year ago - pretty much my only foray into selling on ebay (and not something I care to repeat). I offloaded another four or so via word of mouth. I've got another six Acorn ones with the TUBE ULA but as they're all different I don't want to part with them I'm afraid! > I'd feel a bit bad if I ended up killing a ULA or a 2nd processor though > :-/ Yeah. I blew one up by plugging a copro in backwards once and felt guilty (in my defence, the silk-screening was wrong on the copro PCB, but I still should have checked with a meter first!) >> The problem is that very few people have both a grasp on that >> knowledge and the ability to do the necessary electronic design - it's >> only really worth it for a drop-in replacement (i.e. a single chip or >> a very small daughter-board to plug into the ULA's 40-pin to DIP >> socket) because (as Phil says) it'd be a reasonably large board to do >> it as discrete logic. > > Oh, is that a challenge I hear? :) Kind-of. I figure that a combination of you, Sprow and JGH are probably the best three to get something like this up and running... :-) Sadly all my TUBE docs are in storage*, and I'm not sure what I have scanned here with me - I know I've got some TUBE notes from Hugo and a TUBE app note (but I think the latter's online anyway). * i.e. stuff like the A500 manuals might have something useful inside. > Seems Sprow has a few ULAs left, and one of those (assuming it's > working) should be enough to clone the thing, but a 6502 2proc (either > cheesewedge or internal, as long as it works on a Master 128) might be > handy for a bit of live testing, if such a thing proves necessary. To be honest, lay out your own 6502 board. I've got schematics and ROM images, and there's nowt special to it, assuming you have the ULA. I keep forgetting to poke Sprow about buying a ULA - I still need one for one of my Springboards, and I suspect that the one in my '286 copro might be duff. cheers Jules From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Jan 1 12:24:59 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 12:24:59 -0600 Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: References: <0KCS00A8P2TXXQH7@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <495D0A7B.8030106@pacbell.net> Rick Bensene wrote: > Allison wrote: > >> Memory says there was a Wang machine that directly executed Basic. >> > Yes, the Wang 2200-series machines used a microcoded architecture that > implemented a BASIC interpreter as a native "language". It is perhaps a religious question, but where does microcode end and an instruction set architecture begin? That is, what distinguishes microcode from a conventional instruction set? It isn't necessarily width -- there are narrow and wide styles of microcode, and all points in between. The Wang 700 was 43 bits wide (as Rick certainly knows well), the first generation Wang 2200 had 20b microwords, and the 2200 VP had 23b+parity microwords. As a side note, I'm surprised that the 700 was so wide. Considering the expense of making the core-based ROMs, a narrower microword with more logic spend decoding seems like the more economical choice. On common feature of microcode is having multiple orthogonal control fields. On that basis, the 2200 was microcode. Another common feature of microcode, but not universal, is exposed pipeline hazards. The 2200 fails this, as the effects of each microword is finished before the next microword starts. It is not any more tricky to write 2200 microcode than asm for the typical microprocessor. Dave Angel, one of the guys who wrote the microcode for the 2200T and the 2200VP, took umbrage that my webpage disputes the oft-stated claim that the 2200 implemented BASIC in hardware. He seemed stuck on the distinction that "all other" BASICs have two levels of interpretation -- the code that the interpreter is written in, and the microcode that is interpreting the lower level instruction set. I pointed out that the Z80 isn't microcoded at all and therefore there is one level of interpretation going on, but the point seemed lost on him. For that matter, the overwhelming majority of x86 instructions in today's processors, measured dynamically, are also executed directly without microcode assistance. > These machines > were an extension of the architecture developed for the Wang 700-series > electronic calculators. It's an interesting twist of fate. Wang hadn't > intended to make an advanced scientific calculator, as the thought was > that their 300-Series calculators were all that they needed. Dr. Wang > felt that the important market was in computers, and had a development > effort underway to make a computer that was to compete with IBM's > System/360. It was Dr. Wang's intent to have Wang become the largest > computer company in the world. However, when Hewlett Packard introduced > the HP 9100A calculator, it immediately took most of the market share > away from Wang in the scientific calculator marketplace, where Wang was > the leader. This quickly put Wang into a cash crunch, as they had a hard > time selling the 300-Series machines. The efforts to develop a > computer were quickly re-targeted -- it was mandated that the basic > computer design (a microcoded architecture) was to be refitted to serve > as an advanced programmable calculator. This became the Wang 700-Series > calculators (as well as follow-on machines such as the 500-Series, > 600-Series, and later 400- and C-Series machines). While the 700-Series > machines did help rescue Wang's calculator business, the real savior for > Wang's stockholders was the introduction of Wang's word processing > equipment, also based on much the same microcoded architecture as the > 700-Series calculators. I have a website on the Wang 1200 that is all ready to turn on, but I'm waiting to hear back from Jay West to see if he is willing to host it. I'm looking forward to digging into it more, but one difference between the 700 and the 1200 is that the 700 has a nibble wide data path; the 1200 logically has a nibble wide data path, but it is implemented bit serially. Some of the data sources in the A & B ALU inputs that are "don't cares" in Rick's reverse engineering of the 700 definitely act as sources on the 1200. The 1200 wasn't ever a cash producer for Wang, but its failures did educate them such that when they did come out with the Wang WPS in 1976 (which was 8080-based), they offered something that really did serve the market well. > As it became clear that calculators were > becoming a commodity market, driven mainly by semiconductor > manufacturers who had the resources to fabricate LSI calculator > chipsets, and later single-chip implementations, Wang Labs revisited > building a computer at a much "smaller" level than going after IBM. The > 2200-series BASIC computers (although Wang initially marketed them as > "calculators") were the result. The architecture went from computer, to > calculator, and back to computer, with sidelines into word processors. > > Check out Jim Battle's http://www.wang2200.org . There's even an > emulator of the 2200 that actually runs the actual 2200 microcode! Thanks for the plug! > Rick Bensene > The Old Calculator Museum > http://oldcalculatormuseum.com And to return the favor, visit Rick's site -- in addition to the great assortment of old calculators, Rick has a lot of original research, and a number of interviews with the designers of these machines that you can't find anywhere else. From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Jan 1 12:26:53 2009 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 10:26:53 -0800 Subject: Memory/cache on the 11/70 In-Reply-To: <495C26FC.7020709@softjar.se> References: <200812312022.mBVKLL6E005244@dewey.classiccmp.org> <495C26FC.7020709@softjar.se> Message-ID: <51FAAF03-D854-443F-AEBC-B4196A30250D@shiresoft.com> On Dec 31, 2008, at 6:14 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > Correct. The cache and memory controller is a total of four cards. > But unless my memory fails me, all the signals needed are actually > located in just two of the slots. So you'd have to go with a two > card solution. Either one card and paddles, or two cards with > interconnects. > >> The advantage of just replacing the MK11 boxes, is that it could >> be done with just one board. Depending upon signaling and such >> (and with sufficient integration - ie FPGAs and SMTs) it *might* >> even fit on a quad board vs hex. > > Oh, it could definitely be done with just one quad board. The memory > bus is really simple. > It's just that you won't get much of a speed gain that way, so it > will mostly be a space and power save thing. > Not at all as interesting, atleast not from my point of view. > > You can probably get it all in with through holes on a quad card even. > The memory bus is really simple to interface. And since you'll keep > it in the CPU box, and have the full 4 megs on one card, you can > ignore all the requirements of the bus drivers for the memory bus as > well. > The 11/70 memory bus is otherwise designed for quite a long signal > path. Total max was two cabinets full of memory boxes, or eight of > them. That would get it close to ten feet. Power was accordingly. > So, while not Unibus, there are drivers and terminators on that bus > as well. (Actually, the terminators are the same as those small > cards that terminate a massbus, if anyone ever disassembled one of > those.) > > Remember, SETASI did this on a hex card something like 20 years ago, > if not more. Most of the area was probably memory chips, which can > be reduced extremely much by now. Actually, they used some surface mount for the memory chips. The memory was pretty dense on that board but certainly not the majority of the area. > > > But, as I said, I don't find that exercise very interesting. > >> The other issue with not replacing the cache, is that the verilog >> to implement this would *much* simpler (ie it can probably be >> completed faster). > > True. Simple stuff is always faster to actually do. :-) I've a rough design right now. I spent some time last night thinking about this and I have it pretty much blocked out (modulo timing issues - but that's the great thing about designing with FPGAs - if I miss something w.r.t. timing, I just have to load a new "program"). I'll see how much spare time I have in the next few weeks and see how far I can get. > And to make a few comments on other stuff that's been mentioned. > > You don't seem to appreciate the speed of things on the memory bus. > A read cycle form the MK11 was typically something like 600ns, and > could be as much as 1200ns (when error correction was required), if > I remember right. Write was just as bad, while modify was worse. The > max speed possible is still much lower than 150 ns, which is what > the CPU will run at when you have cache hits (assuming my memory is > right). There is setups, handshakes and signal propagations on a big > bus involved. I thought that was driven by the memory and not the memory bus. There appear to be some minimum timings (50ns & 100ns pulses) but from what I could tell from the docs, the speed was dictated by the MK11s and not necessarily the memory bus. Of course there are deskew times as well. I'll have to go into it in more detail though. If this were 15-20 years ago, I'd agree that speed would be a principle concern, but space and power seem to be more important these days. Given that this solution (just like the PEP-70/Hypercache) is completely reversible I don't see a fundamental problem with this approach. I mostly do this stuff out of interest in preserving the systems in as much of a runnable state as possible. All of the the 11/70s I acquired over the past few years have been CPUs only. There have been no memory boxes (or peripherals of any kind). I haven't been particularly worried about this issue since I also managed to acquire a fair number of PEP-70's & Hypercaches. But I suspect there may be other people out there that aren't as fortunate and want to run an 11/70 without having to have large numbers of racks. I don't worry too much about space/power since I am restoring a 2065 after all and 11's pale in comparison (but I'm also planning to do a memory replacement for that too which is where I discovered the SSRAMs since they are the perfect geometry for a '10). > > > 70ns memory will definitely be sufficient for whatever we would > design. I plan on using 200Mhz SSRAMs 'cause they're relatively easy to interface to. Of course, this is way overkill (5ns memory access times) for this but they're cheap (~$8/ea and only 2 would be needed). I probably won't clock it that fast. I figure something on the order of a 40MHz base clock (25ns) would give me enough granularity for any timing that would need to be done. > > I very much doubt that we'd have any problems getting it all into > one or two cards. > One advantage of replacing the cache is that then we'd definitely > just talk TTL. No buses with drivers at all. > Much simpler and cheaper from that point of view. The driver/receivers are my principle concern. I did find a bus transceiver last night that's open-collector on one side and tri-state on the other. That simplifies things *alot* if it's compatible (though I suspect that with a 4-8" run of cables almost anything would work). Now if I could just find one that was LVTTL on the tri-state side I'd be happy (it would eliminate level shifters). :-) > > > Absolutely best would of course be if we could find drawings for the > HC-70/PEP-70 combination, and use those as the basis for a design, > and just improve by using current available technology. That would be ideal. However, does anyone have drawings for the MK11? The most I could find was the tech manual on Bitsavers. I mainly want to understand the transceivers a bit more. TTFN - Guy From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Jan 1 12:29:41 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 12:29:41 -0600 Subject: Language-specific CPUs In-Reply-To: <495BFF06.7020103@pacbell.net> References: <495BCFD2.8000105@gmail.com> from Jules Richardson at "Dec 31, 8 02:02:26 pm", <200812312127.mBVLR8PQ014734@floodgap.com> <495B818C.32309.19216ECD@cclist.sydex.com> <495BFA5E.4000203@pacbell.net> <495BFF06.7020103@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <495D0B95.90809@pacbell.net> Jim Battle wrote: ... >> I remember reading a computer architecture book back in the early/mid >> 80s, I think it was by Stone. The subject was "advanced" >> architectures. One section described on attempt to build a >> timesharing system for running a BASIC-like subset, and everything was >> hardwired -- parsing was via gate-level state machines, not >> microcode. The intended audience was college-level computer classes. >> As I recall, they gave up after getting a simplified version going. > > Dang, I have the book. I bought used recently it because of its i432 > section, but didn't recognize it was the same book I had read so many > years ago. > > Chapter 8 of "Advances in Computer Architecture" describes the SYMBOL > computer, designed and built buy Fairchild Camera, and operated at Iowa > State. Only one was built. The design was started in the mid 60s. > Here is an excerpt: I forgot to mention I had the author wrong. "Advances in Computer Architecture," by Myers. Mine is the second edition, 1981. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 1 12:33:35 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 10:33:35 -0800 Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: References: <0KCS00A8P2TXXQH7@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net>, Message-ID: <495C9BFF.6444.1D70B9BB@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jan 2009 at 9:51, Rick Bensene wrote: > Yes, the Wang 2200-series machines used a microcoded architecture that > implemented a BASIC interpreter as a native "language". Like an IBM 5150 without any disks? If we're talking about "directly executing" shouldn't the hardware be so tightly wound up with the language that reprogramming it (say, by replacing ROMs) to host some other language is impossible? Otherwise, it's just a conventional processor executing a stored program. Cheers, Chuck From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Jan 1 12:38:35 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 12:38:35 -0600 Subject: Fairchild SYMBOL In-Reply-To: <495D0202.4070802@bitsavers.org> References: <495D0202.4070802@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <495D0DAB.80809@pacbell.net> Al Kossow wrote: > > Chapter 8 of "Advances in Computer Architecture" describes the SYMBOL > computer, designed > > and built buy Fairchild Camera, and operated at Iowa State. Only one > was built. > > And that one is in the CHM collection. I have found some documentation > for it, but no software. Very cool. Do you know if it is the complete machine? Any schematics? How large is it? It makes me wonder if it could be implemented on an FPGA. With today's design languages, it wouldn't be very difficult to create a tool chain that could turn a BNF description into a netlist -- BNF -> verilog, verilog->gates. I'm sure one thing that was very daunting back then was any small change to the language would result in massive changes to the wiring. Of course there would be no reason for carrying it out, but it is fun to think about. Even if you could build such an FPGA and got it going at 100 MHz, it would still be slower than a conventional compiler running on a 2 GHz x86. Despite the increased efficiency, it is hard to bridge that 20x clock multiplier. The best you could do is improve on the start up time, but for any code that iterated, the compiler would win as the parsing costs are paid only once. From jam at magic.com Thu Jan 1 12:52:43 2009 From: jam at magic.com (James A. Markevitch) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 10:52:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Memory/cache on the 11/70 Message-ID: <200901011852.KAA04813@magellan.magic.com> > > Absolutely best would of course be if we could find drawings for the > > HC-70/PEP-70 combination, and use those as the basis for a design, > > and just improve by using current available technology. > > That would be ideal. However, does anyone have drawings for the > MK11? The most I could find was the tech manual on Bitsavers. I > mainly want to understand the transceivers a bit more. Hmm ... not on manx, either. I've got the MK11-B field maintenance print set (MP00523). I'll see if I can dig it out this evening. The MJ11 drawings would also show the transceivers. James Markevitch From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 1 12:52:50 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 10:52:50 -0800 Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: <016701c96c1f$d32fc900$46fea8c0@DeskJara> References: <200812312127.mBVLR8PQ014734@floodgap.com>, <016701c96c1f$d32fc900$46fea8c0@DeskJara> Message-ID: <495CA082.14417.1D825E55@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jan 2009 at 12:45, Alexandre Souza wrote: > AVR microcontrollers are said optimized for C, but there is an excellent > assembler, the AVR Studio. Wow, if that claim is made with a straight face, it has to be an invention of some marketing type. I've coded my share of AVR assembly and certainly wouldn't characterize the uC that way. Perhaps the TI MSP430 uC could be said to be "optimized for C"; it reminds me of the PDP-11 architecture. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 1 12:56:07 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 18:56:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: <495C9BFF.6444.1D70B9BB@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 1, 9 10:33:35 am Message-ID: > > On 1 Jan 2009 at 9:51, Rick Bensene wrote: > > > Yes, the Wang 2200-series machines used a microcoded architecture that > > implemented a BASIC interpreter as a native "language". > > Like an IBM 5150 without any disks? If we're talking about > "directly executing" shouldn't the hardware be so tightly wound up > with the language that reprogramming it (say, by replacing ROMs) to > host some other language is impossible? Otherwise, it's just a > conventional processor executing a stored program. OK, suppose we take a typicel microcomputer with BASIC in ROM and replace the ROMs with a (very large) set of AND and OR gates to carry out the same logic function (after all, a ROM is just a fixed AND matrix (the address decoder) follered by a programablt OR matrix (combines the outputs of that decoder into the desired output words). Is that a hardware implenentation of BASIC or not :-) -tony From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Jan 1 12:59:17 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 16:59:17 -0200 Subject: What kind of IC is this References: <495BD13B.4040604@gmail.com><014a01c96c1f$6a00e7c0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> <495D045A.6060000@gmail.com> Message-ID: <04c601c96c43$3e165770$46fea8c0@DeskJara> >> LD ROM? The big shiny disk? :oD > Yep (well, LVROM in Philips' terminology, but same thing). They're > awesome. :D Nice! (read it in tone of Borat!) >> This is something I'd love to see working :D > Hmm, well there's a working one at Bletchley in England if you ever get > over > there. One day I'll have mine shipped out to the US and have it running at > a > VCF... Hmmm...since I'm in Brazil...it is a little bit TOO far away from me :) But I hope someday I can grab at least a LD-ROM megadrive game for my Laseractive :o) From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Jan 1 13:05:09 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 13:05:09 -0600 Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: <495C9BFF.6444.1D70B9BB@cclist.sydex.com> References: <0KCS00A8P2TXXQH7@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net>, <495C9BFF.6444.1D70B9BB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <495D13E5.6090405@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1 Jan 2009 at 9:51, Rick Bensene wrote: > >> Yes, the Wang 2200-series machines used a microcoded architecture that >> implemented a BASIC interpreter as a native "language". > > Like an IBM 5150 without any disks? Sounds like Rick's saying that the interpreter essentially ran within the CPU's microcode though, rather than in any kind of external ROM. I'm really not sure where the distinction between assembly and 'not assembly' should lie, though. What does a stream of tokenised BASIC or Java bytecode count as? It's not the language in it's original (source) form, so the CPU doesn't "directly run" BASIC or Java (more like it runs assembled code, albeit using pretty coarse instructions). I'm not sure what the benefit would be in a CPU where human-readable source could be thrown at it, though; it'd likely be a lot less efficient than something requiring a compilation step. That doesn't mean someone hasn't tried. Heck, I suppose you could take a PC with some form of bidirectional data bus (a parallel port, say) which accepted whatever data you wanted - enact on the data fed to it and as a self-contained box, call the entire PC a "CPU". cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 1 13:27:12 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 11:27:12 -0800 Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: References: <495C9BFF.6444.1D70B9BB@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 1, 9 10:33:35 am, Message-ID: <495CA890.23328.1DA1D4C7@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jan 2009 at 18:56, Tony Duell wrote: > OK, suppose we take a typicel microcomputer with BASIC in ROM and replace > the ROMs with a (very large) set of AND and OR gates to carry out the > same logic function (after all, a ROM is just a fixed AND matrix > (the address decoder) follered by a programablt OR matrix (combines the > outputs of that decoder into the desired output words). Is that a > hardware implenentation of BASIC or not :-) Yes, if the gates were soldered onto the PCB :) Cheers, Chuck From lehmann at ans-netz.de Thu Jan 1 13:29:15 2009 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 20:29:15 +0100 Subject: What kind of IC is this - part two Message-ID: <20090101202915.56b17832.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Ok, I got another one - now with picture! ;) It is labeled DDU-4- 7992 The picture can be seen here: http://pics.pofo.de/gallery/v/S8000/S8000_boards/P1070269.JPG.html Wild guessing.... resistornetwork? capacitornetwork (was something like that around?)? Greetings, Oliver -- Oliver Lehmann http://www.pofo.de/ http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Thu Jan 1 13:34:37 2009 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 11:34:37 -0800 Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! References: <0KCS00A8P2TXXQH7@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <003301c96c47$fb9036a0$0201a8c0@hal9000> The FORTH chip I've used is the Rockwell R65F11P running RSC-FORTH ver 1.5 in a little robot dog called " FIFO ". FORTH is great for controlling robots and telescopes but kinda sucks for number crunching. Best regards, Steven > > > >Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! > > From: Cameron Kaiser > > Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 13:27:08 -0800 (PST) > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > >> (Interesting question, though - I wonder what a CPU might look like where you > >> could just throw C source code at it, for instance :) > > > >Well, there *was* the AT&T Hobbit: > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AT%26T_Hobbit > > > >Not quite that, but still optimized for C, allegedly. Never worked with > >the architecture myself. > > > > C was written for or about the PDP-11. Just about all the C addressing > modes and basic OPs are native for pdp11 addressing and many instructions. > > Then we have the WD Pascal Microengine that basically was the implementation > of P-code in microcode. > > There are machines that are coded for forth primitives directly. > > I believe somewhere there was or is a a Java engine. > > Memory says there was a Wang machine that directly executed Basic. > > Generally it was not uncommon but most were lost to time. > > > Allison From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jan 1 13:45:35 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 12:45:35 -0700 Subject: T-11 (was Re: PDP-11/70 cache memory) In-Reply-To: <002101c96c2a$02369e90$06a3dbb0$@com> References: <002101c96c2a$02369e90$06a3dbb0$@com> Message-ID: <495D1D5F.6010803@jetnet.ab.ca> Bob Armstrong wrote: > I think it'd be fun too, and if somebody else made one I'd buy one, but as > a product - > > - there's no legal software you can run on the T11 (and no, RT11 isn't > legal!) > - there's no lights and switches front panel option for the T11 > - there's no source for T11 chips except to steal them from old hardware > like RQDX3s, etc Yes you can do it legally ... IMPORT from behind the IRON CURTIAN. :) > Bob From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 1 13:52:57 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 11:52:57 -0800 Subject: What kind of IC is this - part two In-Reply-To: <20090101202915.56b17832.lehmann@ans-netz.de> References: <20090101202915.56b17832.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Message-ID: <495CAE99.9619.1DB96C35@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jan 2009 at 20:29, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > I got another one - now with picture! ;) > > It is labeled > > DDU-4- > 7992 Looks like a delay line to me. Cheers, Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Jan 1 14:11:36 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 12:11:36 -0800 Subject: What kind of IC is this - part two References: <20090101202915.56b17832.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Message-ID: <495D2378.F491F25@cs.ubc.ca> Oliver Lehmann wrote: > > I got another one - now with picture! ;) > > It is labeled > > DDU-4- > 7992 > > The picture can be seen here: > > http://pics.pofo.de/gallery/v/S8000/S8000_boards/P1070269.JPG.html > > Wild guessing.... resistornetwork? capacitornetwork (was something like > that around?)? I can't say I recognise the specific device shown, but sometimes delay lines were packaged like that. (Guess: [Digital|Discrete] Delay Unit - 4 uS ?). (Pulse transformers also were put in such packages in the mid-late 70's, but they are generally associated with core memory drivers.) From lehmann at ans-netz.de Thu Jan 1 14:34:28 2009 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 21:34:28 +0100 Subject: What kind of IC is this - part two In-Reply-To: <495CAE99.9619.1DB96C35@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20090101202915.56b17832.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <495CAE99.9619.1DB96C35@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20090101213428.94476a25.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1 Jan 2009 at 20:29, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > > > I got another one - now with picture! ;) > > > > It is labeled > > > > DDU-4- > > 7992 > > Looks like a delay line to me. Ah - running ddu4 +delay +line through google the following pdf was shown http://www.datasheet5.com/download.asp?id=OCPNRMMWNPRNN Looks like you where right ;) Regardingg the naming convention showed in this pdf 992 could indicate 992ns but 992 sounds "suspicious" -- Oliver Lehmann http://www.pofo.de/ http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Thu Jan 1 14:42:09 2009 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 15:42:09 -0500 Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: <003301c96c47$fb9036a0$0201a8c0@hal9000> References: <0KCS00A8P2TXXQH7@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> <003301c96c47$fb9036a0$0201a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <4affc5e0901011242s717a3274w958e1833aa929ef2@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Jan 1, 2009 at 2:34 PM, Scanning wrote: > FORTH is great for controlling robots > and telescopes but kinda sucks for number crunching. Not once a few modifications have been done: RPL on HP calculators is essentially FORTH. (and to stay on-topic, I believe the Saturn Processor was designed specifically for RPL) Joe. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Jan 1 14:44:57 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 20:44:57 +0000 Subject: What kind of IC is this - part two In-Reply-To: <20090101202915.56b17832.lehmann@ans-netz.de> References: <20090101202915.56b17832.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Message-ID: <495D2B49.8090700@philpem.me.uk> Oliver Lehmann wrote: > http://pics.pofo.de/gallery/v/S8000/S8000_boards/P1070269.JPG.html > > Wild guessing.... resistornetwork? capacitornetwork (was something like > that around?)? That logo belongs to Data Delay Devices, who are still in business: Their part number index lists the DDU4: With a datasheet here: But there's nothing about a DDU-4-7992 in there at all. Based on the naming convention, I'd be inclined to think it was a 7-output delay line, with a total delay of 992 nanoseconds. 992ns seems a bit dubious though. It might be worth emailing their tech support department (email address is at the top of the part number index) and asking them about the meaning of the '7992' part number suffix. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From lehmann at ans-netz.de Thu Jan 1 14:49:45 2009 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 21:49:45 +0100 Subject: What kind of IC is this - part two In-Reply-To: <495D2B49.8090700@philpem.me.uk> References: <20090101202915.56b17832.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <495D2B49.8090700@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <20090101214945.36e832e9.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Philip Pemberton wrote: > It might be worth emailing their tech support department (email address is at > the top of the part number index) and asking them about the meaning of the > '7992' part number suffix. Yeah... done this right now :) -- Oliver Lehmann http://www.pofo.de/ http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jan 1 15:18:21 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 16:18:21 -0500 Subject: Fairchild SYMBOL In-Reply-To: <495D0DAB.80809@pacbell.net> References: <495D0202.4070802@bitsavers.org> <495D0DAB.80809@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <36F1172E-D975-4EC7-B728-C7281DC54F15@neurotica.com> On Jan 1, 2009, at 1:38 PM, Jim Battle wrote: >> > Chapter 8 of "Advances in Computer Architecture" describes the >> SYMBOL computer, designed >> > and built buy Fairchild Camera, and operated at Iowa State. >> Only one was built. >> And that one is in the CHM collection. I have found some >> documentation for it, but no software. > > Very cool. Do you know if it is the complete machine? Any > schematics? How large is it? > > It makes me wonder if it could be implemented on an FPGA. With > today's design languages, it wouldn't be very difficult to create a > tool chain that could turn a BNF description into a netlist -- BNF - > > verilog, verilog->gates. I'm sure one thing that was very > daunting back then was any small change to the language would > result in massive changes to the wiring. Oooh, that'd be serious fun! > Of course there would be no reason for carrying it out, but it is > fun to think about. Nono, think of the architectural research that this would facilitate! Aside from just being fun, one could do some seriously interesting architectural work with something like this. > Even if you could build such an FPGA and got it going at 100 MHz, > it would still be slower than a conventional compiler running on a > 2 GHz x86. Despite the increased efficiency, it is hard to bridge > that 20x clock multiplier. The best you could do is improve on the > start up time, but for any code that iterated, the compiler would > win as the parsing costs are paid only once. I dunno, those x86s are pretty darn inefficient. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jan 1 15:26:37 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 14:26:37 -0700 Subject: Fairchild SYMBOL In-Reply-To: <36F1172E-D975-4EC7-B728-C7281DC54F15@neurotica.com> References: <495D0202.4070802@bitsavers.org> <495D0DAB.80809@pacbell.net> <36F1172E-D975-4EC7-B728-C7281DC54F15@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <495D350D.7020603@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > Nono, think of the architectural research that this would facilitate! > Aside from just being fun, one could do some seriously interesting > architectural work with something like this. Um how do you do recusion? > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jan 1 15:30:06 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 14:30:06 -0700 Subject: Fairchild SYMBOL In-Reply-To: <495D350D.7020603@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <495D0202.4070802@bitsavers.org> <495D0DAB.80809@pacbell.net> <36F1172E-D975-4EC7-B728-C7281DC54F15@neurotica.com> <495D350D.7020603@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <495D35DE.9040109@jetnet.ab.ca> bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > Dave McGuire wrote: > >> Nono, think of the architectural research that this would >> facilitate! Aside from just being fun, one could do some seriously >> interesting architectural work with something like this. > > Um how do you do recusion? spelling error line 8 - recursion >> Dave McGuire >> Port Charlotte, FL > > > From brain at jbrain.com Thu Jan 1 15:32:24 2009 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 15:32:24 -0600 Subject: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <495D3668.8010202@jbrain.com> Tony Duell wrote: > I assume there's a limited number of writes to the microcontroller > program memroy, though... > 10000 > I don;t know how much firmware space you have, but it would be nice if at > least Amigo and SS/80 could be fitted in together with a jumper/switch to > select between them. I'd also suggest some kind of configuration > switch-thingy to select the drive size -- some HP machines moan if the > drive is not the one they're expecting... > > Anything is possible. > Well, I haev quite a few HPs, but (a) I am rather partial to them and (b) > there's this little bit of water in the way [1]. On the other had, if I > can be of any help wen testing, let me know... > I'll post to the list if I get that far. > HO did bti-bang HPIB on several devices. The 82169 (HPIL-HPIB translator) > uses an 8049 IIRC, a custom HP buffer chip (which is nothing more than > line drivers/receivers) and a couple of TTL chips. The 98034 (HPIB > interface for the 98x5 machines) used HP's custom 'nanocontroller', some > standard buffer chips (3448s?) and a little TTL. Scheamtics for the > latter should eb on the Austalian Museum site. > I'll check into this (any other links to HPIB interfaces?) Right now, I'm fighting with the fact that I believe the full complement of IEEE-488 signals is 17, and it sure would be nice if I could get it down to 16 From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Jan 1 15:34:30 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 19:34:30 -0200 Subject: What kind of IC is this - part two References: <20090101202915.56b17832.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Message-ID: <062801c96c58$e38f21e0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> > I got another one - now with picture! ;) > It is labeled > DDU-4- > 7992 > The picture can be seen here: > http://pics.pofo.de/gallery/v/S8000/S8000_boards/P1070269.JPG.html > Wild guessing.... resistornetwork? capacitornetwork (was something like > that around?)? I'm pretty sure this is a delay line. Is this a XT board? From brain at jbrain.com Thu Jan 1 15:50:34 2009 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 15:50:34 -0600 Subject: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: <495D3668.8010202@jbrain.com> References: <495D3668.8010202@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <495D3AAA.1000509@jbrain.com> Jim Brain wrote: >> > I'll check into this (any other links to HPIB interfaces?) Right now, > I'm fighting with the fact that I believe the full complement of > IEEE-488 signals is 17, and it sure would be nice if I could get it > down to 16 Scratch that. I miscounted. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Jan 1 16:17:43 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 14:17:43 -0800 Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! References: <0KCS00A8P2TXXQH7@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <495D4107.4CDE06D5@cs.ubc.ca> Allison wrote: > > C was written for or about the PDP-11. Just about all the C addressing > modes and basic OPs are native for pdp11 addressing and many instructions. While there seems to be a popularly-held association between C and the PDP-11, I believe the suggestion of design influence is overstated. The funky addressing operations (post/pre-inc/dec,indirection,etc.) of C were present in the earlier B language, which ran on other machines before the 11. Dennis Ritchie actually specifically addresses this in his history of the C language: http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/chist.html, see the "More History" section). A primary change from B to C was the addition of byte types and a further abstraction of pointers to facilitate byte-addressed machines. Porting the early unix to the 11 may have helped instigate this (see Ritchie's History of C again), but byte-handling and addressing were nothing unique to, or uniquely beneficial to, the 11. (If it hadn't been done for the 11 it would have been done for another port.) While C and the PDP-11 were a nice fit, I'd suggest the correlation is more one of common trends of the time influencing both, than (either) being written or designed for the other. From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Jan 1 16:23:38 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 16:23:38 -0600 Subject: Fairchild SYMBOL In-Reply-To: <495D35DE.9040109@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <495D0202.4070802@bitsavers.org> <495D0DAB.80809@pacbell.net> <36F1172E-D975-4EC7-B728-C7281DC54F15@neurotica.com> <495D350D.7020603@jetnet.ab.ca> <495D35DE.9040109@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <495D426A.9080809@pacbell.net> bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >> Dave McGuire wrote: >> >>> Nono, think of the architectural research that this would >>> facilitate! Aside from just being fun, one could do some seriously >>> interesting architectural work with something like this. >> >> Um how do you do recusion? like anyone else -- with RAM and a pointer. the parser could be as simple as looking at one byte of input text per clock, or it could perhaps have a window of the next, say, 8 bytes looking forward in the stream, and decode entire tokens in a single clock. if the parsing logic hit "A - (B - C)", the state machine would look up "A" in the symbol table and retrieve its value (or hold an index to it) and place it on a value stack the "-" operator would be pushed on an operator stack "(" is pushed on the operator stack the "B" would be looked up, and saved on the value stack the "-" would be looked up, and since it has higher precedence than the top of the operator stack [which is "("], "-" would be pushed on the operator stack too. the "C" would be looked up and saved on the value stack the ")" is lower precedence than "-", so "-" is popped off the operator stack, and since it is dyadic, the B and C values would be popped off the value stack and operated on. the ")" is checked against the top of the operator stack; we find the "(" and pop it. if we found another operator instead, say unary "-", that would have been processed first. the operator stack is still non-empty, as "-" is found, so it is popped. since it is dyadic, the "B-C" value is popped and "A" value is popped and operated on. the operator stack is empty, and the expression is complete. a dirt simple state machine can carry that out; a smarter one delays pushing results in hopes that the next step needs the just computed result anyway. error processing would complicate things to know how far to rewind the stack. one could opt to have dedicated operator/value stacks, but then there would be a hard limit for the depth of expression nesting. This is manageable for Dartmouth BASIC, but more of a problem for a language with scoping. the best solution is to logically have the stacks in main memory, but to cache the top N entries from each FIFO. From bob099 at centurytel.net Thu Jan 1 16:26:44 2009 From: bob099 at centurytel.net (Choctaw Bob) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 16:26:44 -0600 Subject: T-11 (was Re: PDP-11/70 cache memory) In-Reply-To: <200901011800.n01I05ed017429@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901011800.n01I05ed017429@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <495D4324.4040106@centurytel.net> From: "e.stiebler" Subject: Re: T-11 (was Re: PDP-11/70 cache memory) >Bob Armstrong wrote: >> >> bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >> >> PS. Now only if BOB could make a PDP 11 kit . :( >> > > I think it'd be fun too, and if somebody else made one I'd buy one, but as > > a product - > >There was/is a design out there from a guy (Peter McCollum) who made a >T11-SBC, and really got it working. He Wire-Wrapped it, but the >schematics are somewhere on the net. Somebody just has to sit down and >make a PCB out of it. Schematic here http://www.geocities.com/saipan59/dec/t11.jpg -- A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them; the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences. - Proverbs 22:3 From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 1 16:30:40 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 14:30:40 -0800 Subject: What kind of IC is this - part two In-Reply-To: <062801c96c58$e38f21e0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> References: <20090101202915.56b17832.lehmann@ans-netz.de>, <062801c96c58$e38f21e0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> Message-ID: <495CD390.18453.1E49DF16@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jan 2009 at 19:34, Alexandre Souza wrote: > I'm pretty sure this is a delay line. Is this a XT board? Not with a card release (black plastic thing just visible on the left of the card). Hey Oliver, how about posting a photo of the whole card? I'm curious as to what bus this thing might reside on... Thanks, Chuck From shoppa at trailing-edge.com Thu Jan 1 16:46:15 2009 From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 17:46:15 -0500 Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: <200901012152.n01LpoOk022035@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901012152.n01LpoOk022035@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20090101224616.0FCB9BA5124@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Chuck wrote: > On 1 Jan 2009 at 9:51, Rick Bensene wrote: > > > Yes, the Wang 2200-series machines used a microcoded architecture that > > implemented a BASIC interpreter as a native "language". > > Like an IBM 5150 without any disks? If we're talking about > "directly executing" shouldn't the hardware be so tightly wound up > with the language that reprogramming it (say, by replacing ROMs) to > host some other language is impossible? Otherwise, it's just a > conventional processor executing a stored program. What about, say, a Western Digital Microengine? It's a LSI-11 chipset but with different microcode to interpret P-code which by definition means UCSD Pascal, so in every real respect a language-specific processor in a way that a PDP-11/03 isn't. It's not like people just popped in different MICROM chips to go from a PDP-11/03 to a Microengine to a Alpha Micro WD16. At least, nobody I knew did. I've had Alpha Micros and Microengines and 11/03's at different times through the years and while it's obvious they all have WD chips I never did have the inkling to go muck about with the MICROM's. I doubt a 11/03 with a WCS would be enough to "become" a Alpha Micro or a Microengine. I always did my WCS stuff within the context of the -11 register set, for example. Maybe I was just restrictively unclever at the time. Tim. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 1 17:00:32 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 15:00:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: <0KCS00A8P2TXXQH7@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0KCS00A8P2TXXQH7@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20090101145851.U38643@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 1 Jan 2009, Allison wrote: > C was written for or about the PDP-11. Just about all the C addressing > modes and basic OPs are native for pdp11 addressing and many instructions. > Then we have the WD Pascal Microengine that basically was the implementation > of P-code in microcode. > There are machines that are coded for forth primitives directly. > I believe somewhere there was or is a a Java engine. > Memory says there was a Wang machine that directly executed Basic. > Generally it was not uncommon but most were lost to time. I get a little uncomfortable contemplating the possibility of a machine designed to execute ASP.NET. From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jan 1 17:03:41 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 15:03:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: <20090101145851.U38643@shell.lmi.net> from Fred Cisin at "Jan 1, 9 03:00:32 pm" Message-ID: <200901012303.n01N3fH3010002@floodgap.com> > > Generally it was not uncommon but most were lost to time. > > I get a little uncomfortable contemplating the possibility of a machine > designed to execute ASP.NET. Please, I'm trying to eat here. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- TRUE HEADLINE: Bomb Victims Still Trying To Pick Up The Pieces ------------- From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jan 1 17:03:41 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 18:03:41 -0500 Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: <20090101145851.U38643@shell.lmi.net> References: <0KCS00A8P2TXXQH7@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> <20090101145851.U38643@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Jan 1, 2009, at 6:00 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> C was written for or about the PDP-11. Just about all the C >> addressing >> modes and basic OPs are native for pdp11 addressing and many >> instructions. >> Then we have the WD Pascal Microengine that basically was the >> implementation >> of P-code in microcode. >> There are machines that are coded for forth primitives directly. >> I believe somewhere there was or is a a Java engine. >> Memory says there was a Wang machine that directly executed Basic. >> Generally it was not uncommon but most were lost to time. > > I get a little uncomfortable contemplating the possibility of a > machine > designed to execute ASP.NET. WHY did you go there?? -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Jan 1 17:06:29 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 23:06:29 +0000 Subject: What kind of IC is this - part two In-Reply-To: <495CD390.18453.1E49DF16@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20090101202915.56b17832.lehmann@ans-netz.de>, <062801c96c58$e38f21e0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> <495CD390.18453.1E49DF16@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <495D4C75.8020900@philpem.me.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Hey Oliver, how about posting a photo of the whole card? I'm curious > as to what bus this thing might reside on... I'm not Oliver, but it looks like it's this board: The delay line is 5th IC down, 2nd from the left. Based on the rest of the photos in the "S8000" album (and the screen-print on the PCB), I'm inclined to think it's a Zilog System 8000 (S8000) ECC controller board. More info here: -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 1 17:16:26 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 23:16:26 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0901011242s717a3274w958e1833aa929ef2@mail.gmail.com> from "Joachim Thiemann" at Jan 1, 9 03:42:09 pm Message-ID: > Not once a few modifications have been done: RPL on HP calculators is > essentially FORTH. (and to stay on-topic, I believe the Saturn > Processor was designed specifically for RPL) Was it? The first (production) machine to use the Saturn was the HP71B, which had BASIC in ROM. Maybe RPL was being considered at that time, but I am not certain of that. Later versions of the Saturn did add some instructions to assist in RPL (the main one being PC=(A), basically a threading instruction). But I don't think Saturn machine code is particularly close to RPL even then. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 1 17:29:23 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 23:29:23 +0000 (GMT) Subject: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: <495D3668.8010202@jbrain.com> from "Jim Brain" at Jan 1, 9 03:32:24 pm Message-ID: > > I don;t know how much firmware space you have, but it would be nice if at > > least Amigo and SS/80 could be fitted in together with a jumper/switch to > > select between them. I'd also suggest some kind of configuration > > switch-thingy to select the drive size -- some HP machines moan if the > > drive is not the one they're expecting... > > > > > Anything is possible. ... except skiing through a revolving door :-) More seriously, there must be a limit to the code size. To goive you some idea as to the complexity, I think the HP Amigo drives had 8K of ROM, the SS/80 ones that I've worked on had 16K. This is 6809 machine code. The controller board contains a 6809, EPROM, RAM, the HPIB chip and standard-ish hard and/or floppy controller chips Obviously if you bit-banged it, it would take a little more code for that than to talk to the HPIB chips. I don't know how talking to a CF card (or whatever) compares to talking to a WD2973 floppy controller or a WD1010 hard disk contorller. But that should give you some idea. > > HO did bti-bang HPIB on several devices. The 82169 (HPIL-HPIB translator) > > uses an 8049 IIRC, a custom HP buffer chip (which is nothing more than > > line drivers/receivers) and a couple of TTL chips. The 98034 (HPIB > > interface for the 98x5 machines) used HP's custom 'nanocontroller', some > > standard buffer chips (3448s?) and a little TTL. Scheamtics for the > > latter should eb on the Austalian Museum site. > > > I'll check into this (any other links to HPIB interfaces?) Right now, HPIB == GPIB == IEEE-488 (at least at the hardware level). Alas I don't think the standard -- IIEE-488-1975 is freely distributable (IMHO standards _should_ be, but they rarely are). I did read it once -- many years ago -- but I don't have it. If you can find it, it's somehting you should read. HPIB disk units tend to use many of the features of the HPIB standard. Early HPIB instruments tended to do the IEEE handshakes in hardware (either monostales, or state machines), so that's probably not a lot of use to you. The conputers tended to use 9914 interface chips, again not a lot of use. And HP's custom HPIB chip, the 1TL1 (Medusa) is nice, but not a lot of interest to you. Commodore almost always bit-banged it, so looking at the schematics of PETs and their peripherals might be a help. Otherwise just poke about on the Australian museum. > I'm fighting with the fact that I believe the full complement of > IEEE-488 signals is 17, and it sure would be nice if I could get it down > to 16 Don't worry, it's 16 active signals : 8 data lines 3 handshake lines (DAV, NRFD, NDAC) 5 control lines (ATN, EOI, IFC, SRQ, REN) And then 7 logic grounds and a shield ground. All signals are bidirectional (although, unless you intend to be a controller, you don't ened to be able to drive some of them). Some devices drive them with totem-poll drivers, others open-collector (with passive termination). There are arguements in favour of either for particular applications. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 1 17:56:07 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 15:56:07 -0800 Subject: What kind of IC is this - part two In-Reply-To: <495D4C75.8020900@philpem.me.uk> References: <20090101202915.56b17832.lehmann@ans-netz.de>, <495CD390.18453.1E49DF16@cclist.sydex.com>, <495D4C75.8020900@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <495CE797.16404.1E98492F@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jan 2009 at 23:06, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Hey Oliver, how about posting a photo of the whole card? I'm curious > > as to what bus this thing might reside on... > > I'm not Oliver, but it looks like it's this board: > > > The delay line is 5th IC down, 2nd from the left. > > Based on the rest of the photos in the "S8000" album (and the screen-print on > the PCB), I'm inclined to think it's a Zilog System 8000 (S8000) ECC > controller board. Good spotting! So it's DEFINITELY not an XT board... :) Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 1 18:03:20 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 16:03:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sorry (Was: Language-specific CPUs In-Reply-To: References: <0KCS00A8P2TXXQH7@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> <20090101145851.U38643@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20090101154730.L38643@shell.lmi.net> > >> Then we have the WD Pascal Microengine that basically was the > >> implementation > >> of P-code in microcode. > >> There are machines that are coded for forth primitives directly. > >> I believe somewhere there was or is a a Java engine. > >> Memory says there was a Wang machine that directly executed Basic. > >> Generally it was not uncommon but most were lost to time. > > I get a little uncomfortable contemplating the possibility of a > > machine > > designed to execute ASP.NET. On Thu, 1 Jan 2009, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Please, I'm trying to eat here. On Thu, 1 Jan 2009, Dave McGuire wrote: > WHY did you go there?? Sorry for such an excremental comparison, this is an aspect of the field that I am interested in, but know very little about. But some systems, such as Java bytecode, and including ones that might support multiple languages such as UCSD P-system, compile to a moderately low level intermediate language. IF that intermediate is low enough, then it becomes feasable to design hardware that is closely tied to the language, such as the p-system micro-engine, or SOAR ("Smalltalk On A Risc"), etc. ASP appears to be designed that way, and I have been meaning to get and read the ASP ILASM ("Intermediate level assembler"?) books. Would MICROS~1 not be working on a dedicated hardware system? For that matter (sorry for the mass indigestion), surely Intel is studying and doing massive statistical analyses of the relative frequency of different instructions, in order to optimize processors for what they will actually be used for. If their data is real world, then such optimizations would ultimately result in creation of processors that are specifically optimized for the weirdities of Windoze! I had hoped that this year would be better than last. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ats at offog.org Thu Jan 1 18:22:15 2009 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 00:22:15 +0000 Subject: T-11 (was Re: PDP-11/70 cache memory) In-Reply-To: <495D1D5F.6010803@jetnet.ab.ca> (bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca's message of "Thu\, 01 Jan 2009 12\:45\:35 -0700") References: <002101c96c2a$02369e90$06a3dbb0$@com> <495D1D5F.6010803@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: "bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca" writes: > Yes you can do it legally ... IMPORT from behind the IRON CURTIAN. :) Does this solve the software problem too -- i.e. are there any interesting Russian operating systems you could run on a T-11 SBC? -- Adam Sampson From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jan 1 20:02:38 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 19:02:38 -0700 Subject: T-11 (was Re: PDP-11/70 cache memory) In-Reply-To: References: <002101c96c2a$02369e90$06a3dbb0$@com> <495D1D5F.6010803@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <495D75BE.6040508@jetnet.ab.ca> Adam Sampson wrote: > "bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca" writes: > >> Yes you can do it legally ... IMPORT from behind the IRON CURTIAN. :) > > Does this solve the software problem too -- i.e. are there any > interesting Russian operating systems you could run on a T-11 SBC? > All good USSR^H^H development during the cold war era. The Russian trinary computer was typical development ... Good ideas but not the 5 year plan. From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Thu Jan 1 20:46:48 2009 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 20:46:48 -0600 Subject: MSDOS/DOS OBJ file format compatibility Message-ID: <495D8018.6040808@brutman.com> I've been working on my TCP/IP stack for three years now. It's in Borland Turbo C++ 3.0, which is capable of taking OBJs and making a LIB (library) from them. This is how I was planning to distribute my code for other people to use. A question came up today that I can't readily answer. If somebody is programming using Microsoft languages, will they be able to link against OBJs or LIBs I provide them? I have no idea if the OBJ or LIB format is standard and portable across the two vendor toolsets. If it is portable then I know I have to watch out for things like parameter ordering. But how does one express the concept of NEAR and FAR pointers in the different languages? Is there a guide or a cross reference somewhere? Maybe something buried in compiler docs somewhere? (The first target user is a *gasp* QuickBASIC user. I'd rather he program in C, but that's a different discussion.) Thanks, Mike From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 1 21:13:37 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 19:13:37 -0800 Subject: MSDOS/DOS OBJ file format compatibility In-Reply-To: <495D8018.6040808@brutman.com> References: <495D8018.6040808@brutman.com> Message-ID: <495D15E1.25606.1F4CD94E@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jan 2009 at 20:46, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > > I've been working on my TCP/IP stack for three years now. It's in > Borland Turbo C++ 3.0, which is capable of taking OBJs and making a LIB > (library) from them. This is how I was planning to distribute my code > for other people to use. > > A question came up today that I can't readily answer. If somebody is > programming using Microsoft languages, will they be able to link against > OBJs or LIBs I provide them? I have no idea if the OBJ or LIB format is > standard and portable across the two vendor toolsets. > > If it is portable then I know I have to watch out for things like > parameter ordering. But how does one express the concept of NEAR and > FAR pointers in the different languages? Is there a guide or a cross > reference somewhere? Maybe something buried in compiler docs somewhere? Object files are compatible; there may been some naming convention issues (recall that MS uses name "mangling" in C++, but I think that can be turned off.) The calling sequence is standard C, with arguments being pushed in reverse order and the caller doing the cleanup. Pointer handling between languages can be very different. Here's the big rub as I see it--you'll have to provide the other people with a copy of the Turbo C++ library routines that you use. Will there be collisions in names? Almost certainly if the user you're dealing with is writing in MS C. Each language has its own calling convention (Turbo Pascal, for example, pushes arguments on the stack the reverse of Turbo C++ and expects the called routine to do stack cleanup on exit). BASIC parameter-passing conventions are very different from, C++, particularly in the case of strings. It can be done, but it's not always easy. Cheers, Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Jan 1 21:34:03 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 22:34:03 -0500 Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: <495CE19D.40607@pacbell.net> References: <495BCFD2.8000105@gmail.com> from Jules Richardson at "Dec 31, 8 02:02:26 pm", <200812312127.mBVLR8PQ014734@floodgap.com> <495B818C.32309.19216ECD@cclist.sydex.com> <495CBA26.5070107@gmail.com> <495CE19D.40607@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <495D8B2B.2090801@gmail.com> Jim Battle wrote: > Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > ... >> >> The Timex TM100 chip does BASIC in hardware, but it doesn't parse the >> text itself... it requires a tokenized stream. > > I tried googling this, but find no references. Do you have any? When > was it made? Who was the market? I think it was for the personal computing market, but I know to a degree of certainty that it never made it past the prototype stage. Peace... Sridhar From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jan 1 21:40:49 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 19:40:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: <495D8B2B.2090801@gmail.com> from Sridhar Ayengar at "Jan 1, 9 10:34:03 pm" Message-ID: <200901020340.n023enJv008198@floodgap.com> > > > The Timex TM100 chip does BASIC in hardware, but it doesn't parse the > > > text itself... it requires a tokenized stream. > > > > I tried googling this, but find no references. Do you have any? When > > was it made? Who was the market? > > I think it was for the personal computing market, but I know to a degree > of certainty that it never made it past the prototype stage. I presume this was to be part of the T/S home computer line? Like a post-2068 model? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Time makes more converts than reason. -- Thomas Payne ---------------------- From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Jan 1 22:06:38 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 22:06:38 -0600 Subject: Sorry (Was: Language-specific CPUs In-Reply-To: <20090101154730.L38643@shell.lmi.net> References: <0KCS00A8P2TXXQH7@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> <20090101145851.U38643@shell.lmi.net> <20090101154730.L38643@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <495D92CE.90306@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > For that matter (sorry for the mass indigestion), surely Intel is studying > and doing massive statistical analyses of the relative frequency of > different instructions Presumably - I expect this is common practice for all CPU manufacturers (and what I believe fed the first RISC designs way back when) > If their data is real world, then such > optimizations would ultimately result in creation of processors that are > specifically optimized for the weirdities of Windoze! Multiple types of halt instruction, you mean? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jan 1 22:18:15 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 21:18:15 -0700 Subject: Sorry (Was: Language-specific CPUs In-Reply-To: <495D92CE.90306@gmail.com> References: <0KCS00A8P2TXXQH7@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> <20090101145851.U38643@shell.lmi.net> <20090101154730.L38643@shell.lmi.net> <495D92CE.90306@gmail.com> Message-ID: <495D9587.8060206@jetnet.ab.ca> Jules Richardson wrote: > Multiple types of halt instruction, you mean? More the 6800 version - Halt and catch fire ... From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Jan 1 22:47:05 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 20:47:05 -0800 Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: <003301c96c47$fb9036a0$0201a8c0@hal9000> References: <0KCS00A8P2TXXQH7@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> <003301c96c47$fb9036a0$0201a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 11:34:37 -0800 > The FORTH chip I've used is the Rockwell R65F11P running RSC-FORTH ver 1.5 > in a little robot dog called " FIFO ". FORTH is great for controlling robots > and telescopes but kinda sucks for number crunching. > > Best regards, Steven > Hi An interesting statement. The Forth Chip, RTX2000, was often added to machines to be specifically used to enhance the number crunching ability of systems. I suspect your thinking is related to the fact that most cheep/free Forth's lacked floating point, built in. I do have to admit that a single stack is a little clumsy for multi dimensional vector operations. Still, there is always the possibility of using some some type of local variables ( most professional Forths support locals ). Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Send e-mail anywhere. No map, no compass. http://windowslive.com/oneline/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_anywhere_122008 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jan 1 23:45:30 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 22:45:30 -0700 Subject: Ot - ebay listing - 8 bit development In-Reply-To: References: <0KCS00A8P2TXXQH7@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> <003301c96c47$fb9036a0$0201a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <495DA9FA.40003@jetnet.ab.ca> Item number: 110331830581 Motorola M68HC705KICS in-circuit simulator From brain at jbrain.com Fri Jan 2 00:38:58 2009 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 00:38:58 -0600 Subject: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <495DB682.6070207@jbrain.com> Tony Duell wrote: >>> I don;t know how much firmware space you have, but it would be nice if at >>> least Amigo and SS/80 could be fitted in together with a jumper/switch to >>> select between them. I'd also suggest some kind of configuration >>> switch-thingy to select the drive size -- some HP machines moan if the >>> drive is not the one they're expecting... >>> >>> >>> >> Anything is possible. >> > > ... except skiing through a revolving door :-) > > More seriously, there must be a limit to the code size. > The unit I am using has 128kB of space, of which I am using 4kB for a bootloader and 51K so far for uIEC DOS. But, a HPIB/GPIB based unit can dispense with things like D64 images and such, so I think there may be plenty of room. There are provisions for 3 switch inputs, which could be used for drive and interface selection. It *might* be possible to load everything into one firmware image, but I think it'd be best to keep the CBM/non-CBM stuff separate. > All signals are bidirectional (although, unless you intend to be a > controller, you don't ened to be able to drive some of them). Some devices > drive them with totem-poll drivers, others open-collector (with passive > termination). There are arguements in favour of either for particular > applications. > > -tony > I'm planning on OC outputs. My idea is to make the ATA (IDE) interface do double duty. As I look at the signal table for ATA, I notice a few unused states: /CS0 & /CS1 = IEEE CS A0 selects data or control lines READ selects a read WRITE selects a write I'll probably use the 75160/75161 ($4.00 for SOIC, $2.80 for DIP for the two ICs), though I prefer '245s for the inputs and TPIC6B273s for the outputs. (3.40+.82 = 4.42 for the 4 ICs). A single '138 should decode what I need from the IDE control signals. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Jan 2 01:13:26 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 23:13:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: new version of Overbite for Firefox Message-ID: <200901020713.n027DQNV008972@floodgap.com> For those people who are using my Overbite add-on to surf the friendly holes of Gopherspace, there is now an updated version that fixes a glitch with XML files (including SVG). This add-on includes a "dotless" filter to remove the trailing period that many servers send, such that they won't barf anymore. There are also some various small custodial thingies. This will be the last version for Firefox 2. http://gopher.floodgap.com/overbite gopher://gopher.floodgap.com/1/overbite -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Reality is when it finally happens to you, too. ---------------------------- From nierveze at radio-astronomie.com Thu Jan 1 15:50:02 2009 From: nierveze at radio-astronomie.com (nierveze) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 22:50:02 +0100 Subject: T-11 (was Re: PDP-11/70 cache memory) References: <002101c96c2a$02369e90$06a3dbb0$@com> <495D1D5F.6010803@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <000f01c96c5a$ea13ea80$04000005@pc> hello ,I do not very often come to this list ,first best wishes to all ,then, about pdp11 micro processor ,it is really easy to buy new in russia pdp11 processors made by a company called angstom ,or used ones from ebay (simply look for pdp-11),the documentation is fully available ,also are the schematics of the bk0010 ,a 'toy' that uses this processor,and speaks focal,basic and assembler.They are not t11,but rather 11/03 compatible,some version have fpu. To find the documentation go to the google groups for bk0010.You will find lots of things ,of course alas ,text is in russian ,I do not speak russian ,but electronics is everywhere the same,and electronic translators work quite well.The people of this group mostly in russia are very friendly ,and could be of help ,they helped me in understanding some things about those machines,they are porting a small unix (bkunix) on it.There are also correspondance tables between russian ic and the ones we use commonly ,do you need more details? thanks best regards alain nierveze ----- Message d'origine ----- De : ? : "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Envoy? : jeudi 1 janvier 2009 20:45 Objet : Re: T-11 (was Re: PDP-11/70 cache memory) > Bob Armstrong wrote: > > > I think it'd be fun too, and if somebody else made one I'd buy one, but as > > a product - > > > > - there's no legal software you can run on the T11 (and no, RT11 isn't > > legal!) > > - there's no lights and switches front panel option for the T11 > > - there's no source for T11 chips except to steal them from old hardware > > like RQDX3s, etc > > Yes you can do it legally ... IMPORT from behind the IRON CURTIAN. :) > > > Bob > > > > From bqt at softjar.se Thu Jan 1 16:46:37 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 23:46:37 +0100 Subject: Memory/cache on the 11/70 In-Reply-To: <200901012152.n01LpoOp022035@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901012152.n01LpoOp022035@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <495D47CD.9000207@softjar.se> Guy Sotomayor wrote: > On Dec 31, 2008, at 6:14 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> Remember, SETASI did this on a hex card something like 20 years ago, >> if not more. Most of the area was probably memory chips, which can >> be reduced extremely much by now. > > Actually, they used some surface mount for the memory chips. The > memory was pretty dense on that board but certainly not the majority > of the area. Still, the level of integration today is much higher. So if it could be done 20 years ago, it should definitely not be a problem today. >> And to make a few comments on other stuff that's been mentioned. >> >> You don't seem to appreciate the speed of things on the memory bus. >> A read cycle form the MK11 was typically something like 600ns, and >> could be as much as 1200ns (when error correction was required), if >> I remember right. Write was just as bad, while modify was worse. The >> max speed possible is still much lower than 150 ns, which is what >> the CPU will run at when you have cache hits (assuming my memory is >> right). There is setups, handshakes and signal propagations on a big >> bus involved. > > I thought that was driven by the memory and not the memory bus. There > appear to be some minimum timings (50ns & 100ns pulses) but from what > I could tell from the docs, the speed was dictated by the MK11s and > not necessarily the memory bus. Of course there are deskew times as > well. I'll have to go into it in more detail though. There are built in limitation in the bus which always will cause it to be much slower than running against cache. This should be obvious when we talk about an asynchronous bus. You have a protocol with handshakes and acknowledges that goes back and forth for each memory access. And each of those phases of the protocol needs a minimum time. Of course, the 600ns minimum times of the MK11 are are partially because of the limitations of the MK11, but exactly how much you should blame each half for is unknown. After all, the access times for the memory chips in the MK11 box are not anywhere near 600ns. > If this were 15-20 years ago, I'd agree that speed would be a > principle concern, but space and power seem to be more important these > days. Given that this solution (just like the PEP-70/Hypercache) is > completely reversible I don't see a fundamental problem with this > approach. Me neither. As I said before, if someone wants to do it, I'll definitely not try to prevent it. But it's not something that I find particularly interesting myself. > I mostly do this stuff out of interest in preserving the systems in as > much of a runnable state as possible. All of the the 11/70s I > acquired over the past few years have been CPUs only. There have been > no memory boxes (or peripherals of any kind). I haven't been > particularly worried about this issue since I also managed to acquire > a fair number of PEP-70's & Hypercaches. But I suspect there may be > other people out there that aren't as fortunate and want to run an > 11/70 without having to have large numbers of racks. I don't worry > too much about space/power since I am restoring a 2065 after all and > 11's pale in comparison (but I'm also planning to do a memory > replacement for that too which is where I discovered the SSRAMs since > they are the perfect geometry for a '10). Well, both the 11/70s around here have enough memory as it is, so that if anything, it's the speedup that I'd be interested in. Power...? Well, we have two -2060s, as well as two VAX-8650 around as well. Compared to those, the 11/70s are nothing. :-) The biggest power consumer is the memory system of the DEC-20 by the way. It uses a linear power supply... Heavy as hell as well. :-) (I couldn't possibly talk you out of a HC-70/PEP-70 combo would I? Anything you might want in return?) >> 70ns memory will definitely be sufficient for whatever we would >> design. > > I plan on using 200Mhz SSRAMs 'cause they're relatively easy to > interface to. Of course, this is way overkill (5ns memory access > times) for this but they're cheap (~$8/ea and only 2 would be > needed). I probably won't clock it that fast. I figure something on > the order of a 40MHz base clock (25ns) would give me enough > granularity for any timing that would need to be done. Definitely overkill. But there is nothing wrong with overkill, as long as it don't cost a lot extra. >> I very much doubt that we'd have any problems getting it all into >> one or two cards. >> One advantage of replacing the cache is that then we'd definitely >> just talk TTL. No buses with drivers at all. >> Much simpler and cheaper from that point of view. > > The driver/receivers are my principle concern. I did find a bus > transceiver last night that's open-collector on one side and tri-state > on the other. That simplifies things *alot* if it's compatible > (though I suspect that with a 4-8" run of cables almost anything would > work). Now if I could just find one that was LVTTL on the tri-state > side I'd be happy (it would eliminate level shifters). :-) :-) >> Absolutely best would of course be if we could find drawings for the >> HC-70/PEP-70 combination, and use those as the basis for a design, >> and just improve by using current available technology. > > That would be ideal. However, does anyone have drawings for the > MK11? The most I could find was the tech manual on Bitsavers. I > mainly want to understand the transceivers a bit more. I think I have the drawings somewhere, along with a bunch of manuals that aren't on bitsavers either. One of these years I really should try to get it scanned, or something... (Along with a bunch of other documentation that I have lying around for various DEC stuff...) And as someone else said, the MJ11 drawings should also be good for the information you're asking for. (And yes, I've kept one real MJ11 around, just for nostalgia. But it's not hooked up.) I also have some third party memory boxes. I think they were made by Plessey. You could try find something from there as well. Johnny From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Jan 1 16:55:18 2009 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 17:55:18 -0500 Subject: T-11 (was Re: PDP-11/70 cache memory) Message-ID: <0KCT00ATKEBFXRM9@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: T-11 (was Re: PDP-11/70 cache memory) > From: "Bob Armstrong" > Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 08:00:03 -0800 > To: > >>bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >>PS. Now only if BOB could make a PDP 11 kit . :( > > I think it'd be fun too, and if somebody else made one I'd buy one, but as >a product - > > - there's no legal software you can run on the T11 (and no, RT11 isn't >legal!) Forth, CP/M68 could be compiled for it. I'm sure TinyBasic can be done from Dave Dunfields TB in C. the nice part is anyone with a PDP11, LSI11 or sim (including Ersatz-11) can build an image and test it. > - there's no lights and switches front panel option for the T11 It a micro much like 8085 so yes it can be done. But a small SBC with 32kw ram, 2kw rom and some serial IO is a tiny thing. > - there's no source for T11 chips except to steal them from old hardware >like RQDX3s, etc > That's a bit harder but far from impossible. considering DEC used them in Falcon boards, and the the qbus slave (kxt21?), Vt240/241 series, and the storage hub (something mumble50). Allison >Bob From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Jan 2 01:29:34 2009 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 08:29:34 +0100 Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: <016701c96c1f$d32fc900$46fea8c0@DeskJara> References: <200812312127.mBVLR8PQ014734@floodgap.com> <016701c96c1f$d32fc900$46fea8c0@DeskJara> Message-ID: <20090102082934.e561f117.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 1 Jan 2009 12:45:43 -0200 "Alexandre Souza" wrote: > AVR microcontrollers are said optimized for C, but there is an > excellent assembler, the AVR Studio. They are "optimized for C" in the sense that there architecture makes it easy to implement C. (Flat memory, lots of registers, stack ...) I did a project in AVR assembler. AVRs are much easier to assembler code then the i8051. (The i8051 is a braindead, awkward POS. A typical intel design... I used it once and will never again.) Today I do all my uC hacking with avr-gcc. The oposit may be the PIC. Due to the PIC architecture a C implementation is a bit tricky. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 2 01:30:21 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 02:30:21 -0500 Subject: T-11 (was Re: PDP-11/70 cache memory) In-Reply-To: <0KCT00ATKEBFXRM9@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0KCT00ATKEBFXRM9@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On Jan 1, 2009, at 5:55 PM, Allison wrote: >> - there's no source for T11 chips except to steal them from old >> hardware >> like RQDX3s, etc >> > That's a bit harder but far from impossible. considering DEC used > them in > Falcon boards, and the the qbus slave (kxt21?), Vt240/241 series, > and the > storage hub (something mumble50). Do you mean the HSC50? If memory serves, it's based on the F-11, not the T-11. Later HSCs (70, 90, etc) were based on the J-11. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 2 01:32:57 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 02:32:57 -0500 Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: References: <0KCS00A8P2TXXQH7@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> <003301c96c47$fb9036a0$0201a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: On Jan 1, 2009, at 11:47 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > An interesting statement. The Forth Chip, RTX2000, was often added > to machines to be specifically used to enhance the number crunching > ability of systems. I have a couple of Harris RTX2001 chips and some dev info. I've been meaning to do something with them but haven't gotten anywhere yet. They should be fun. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 2 02:15:42 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 00:15:42 -0800 Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: <20090102082934.e561f117.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <200812312127.mBVLR8PQ014734@floodgap.com>, <016701c96c1f$d32fc900$46fea8c0@DeskJara>, <20090102082934.e561f117.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <495D5CAE.4185.2061A3B4@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Jan 2009 at 8:29, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Thu, 1 Jan 2009 12:45:43 -0200 > "Alexandre Souza" wrote: > > > AVR microcontrollers are said optimized for C, but there is an > > excellent assembler, the AVR Studio. > They are "optimized for C" in the sense that there architecture makes > it easy to implement C. (Flat memory, lots of registers, stack ...) I > did a project in AVR assembler. AVRs are much easier to assembler code > then the i8051. (The i8051 is a braindead, awkward POS. A typical intel > design... I used it once and will never again.) Today I do all my uC > hacking with avr-gcc. The oposit may be the PIC. Due to the PIC > architecture a C implementation is a bit tricky. Perhaps compared to an 8051, and a PIC, but literal constants in program memory have their own addressing problems (LPM uses twice the program space address and is the only access to program memory). Since SP is in I/O space and not register space, it takes extra instructions to perform stack-relative addressing (got to get SP into X, Y, or Z) for stack-local variables, etc. Compare that with the TI MSP430. 16 16-bit registers, PC is R0, SP is R1, Status is R2, R3 is a "constant generator" and the rest are uncommitted. Von Neumann architecture, 7 addressing modes... The 8051 is a little clumsy, but a genius compared to, say, the 8x300 uC. But C can probably be implemented on any binary uC, given enough ugliness and memory. Cheers, Chuck From lehmann at ans-netz.de Fri Jan 2 04:21:54 2009 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 11:21:54 +0100 Subject: What kind of IC is this - part two In-Reply-To: <495D4C75.8020900@philpem.me.uk> References: <20090101202915.56b17832.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <062801c96c58$e38f21e0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> <495CD390.18453.1E49DF16@cclist.sydex.com> <495D4C75.8020900@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <20090102112154.e2dc19f5.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Philip Pemberton wrote: > I'm not Oliver, but it looks like it's this board: > > > The delay line is 5th IC down, 2nd from the left. > > Based on the rest of the photos in the "S8000" album (and the screen-print on > the PCB), I'm inclined to think it's a Zilog System 8000 (S8000) ECC > controller board. > > More info here: Good digging up - and all is completly right ;) I just thought that posting a photo where the IC can be seen without having to look at the big version of the photo (bandwith... ;)) suits better... -- Oliver Lehmann http://www.pofo.de/ http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri Jan 2 05:39:18 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 11:39:18 +0000 Subject: T-11 (was Re: PDP-11/70 cache memory) In-Reply-To: <0KCT00ATKEBFXRM9@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0KCT00ATKEBFXRM9@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <495DFCE6.1070200@gjcp.net> Allison wrote: >> Subject: T-11 (was Re: PDP-11/70 cache memory) >> From: "Bob Armstrong" >> Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 08:00:03 -0800 >> To: >> >>> bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >>> PS. Now only if BOB could make a PDP 11 kit . :( >> I think it'd be fun too, and if somebody else made one I'd buy one, but as >> a product - >> >> - there's no legal software you can run on the T11 (and no, RT11 isn't >> legal!) > > Forth, CP/M68 could be compiled for it. I'm sure TinyBasic can be done I always fancied writing a PDP-11 Forth ;-) >> - there's no lights and switches front panel option for the T11 > > It a micro much like 8085 so yes it can be done. But a small SBC with 32kw ram, > 2kw rom and some serial IO is a tiny thing. Hang LEDs off a latch, if you want them... >> - there's no source for T11 chips except to steal them from old hardware >> like RQDX3s, etc >> > > That's a bit harder but far from impossible. considering DEC used them in > Falcon boards, and the the qbus slave (kxt21?), Vt240/241 series, and the > storage hub (something mumble50). Dare I say, clone in an FPGA? Gordon From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri Jan 2 05:52:23 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 11:52:23 +0000 Subject: Sorry (Was: Language-specific CPUs In-Reply-To: <495D92CE.90306@gmail.com> References: <0KCS00A8P2TXXQH7@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> <20090101145851.U38643@shell.lmi.net> <20090101154730.L38643@shell.lmi.net> <495D92CE.90306@gmail.com> Message-ID: <495DFFF7.2030409@gjcp.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote: >> For that matter (sorry for the mass indigestion), surely Intel is >> studying >> and doing massive statistical analyses of the relative frequency of >> different instructions > > Presumably - I expect this is common practice for all CPU manufacturers > (and what I believe fed the first RISC designs way back when) > >> If their data is real world, then such >> optimizations would ultimately result in creation of processors that are >> specifically optimized for the weirdities of Windoze! > > Multiple types of halt instruction, you mean? > There is actually a Windows hardware accelerator, which speeds things up massively. Having only four opcodes, it's very easy to program: MSB - Make Screen Blue DMH - Display Memory as Hex, optionally with cryptic messages HLT - Halt until a key is pressed, then reset SOD - Scribble On Disk, just in case any data managed to be written out before the crash. Although the microcode behind these instructions is quite complex, the simple instruction set makes it easy for the end user to use. One added advantage is that having only four opcodes makes it ideally suited to two-bit architectures. Gordon From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jan 2 06:02:19 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 07:02:19 -0500 Subject: T-11 (was Re: PDP-11/70 cache memory) In-Reply-To: References: <0KCT00ATKEBFXRM9@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <495E024B.4090100@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jan 1, 2009, at 5:55 PM, Allison wrote: >>> - there's no source for T11 chips except to steal them from old >>> hardware >>> like RQDX3s, etc >>> >> That's a bit harder but far from impossible. considering DEC used >> them in >> Falcon boards, and the the qbus slave (kxt21?), Vt240/241 series, and the >> storage hub (something mumble50). > > Do you mean the HSC50? If memory serves, it's based on the F-11, not > the T-11. Later HSCs (70, 90, etc) were based on the J-11. Verified visually just now. Peace... Sridhar From andrew at smokebelch.org Fri Jan 2 07:30:44 2009 From: andrew at smokebelch.org (Andrew Back) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 13:30:44 +0000 Subject: ID'ing Q-Bus cards. Message-ID: <20090102133044.GA5136@plum.flirble.org> I have a PDP11/53, which on inspection contains 2x M7651: - One cabled to a same-sized card made by Logica and marked 3490/300 - One cabled to a double-sized card marked 3350/304 (assuming Logica) Both these cards appear to be SCSI controllers, but does anyone know any more about them? And I'm wondering if there might be some hoops to jump through in their use, E.g. only support certain drives or require a patched O/S. Looks like one of these M7651/SCSI controller pairs is going to have to go, in order to make room for ethernet... Regards, Andrew -- Andrew Back a at smokebelch.org From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jan 2 08:12:55 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 09:12:55 -0500 Subject: Sorry (Was: Language-specific CPUs In-Reply-To: <495D92CE.90306@gmail.com> References: <0KCS00A8P2TXXQH7@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> <20090101145851.U38643@shell.lmi.net> <20090101154730.L38643@shell.lmi.net> <495D92CE.90306@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Presumably - I expect this is common practice for all CPU manufacturers > (and what I believe fed the first RISC designs way back when) Yes, it has been this way since the 1960s, certainly. -- Will From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Jan 2 10:00:31 2009 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 08:00:31 -0800 Subject: ID'ing Q-Bus cards. In-Reply-To: <20090102133044.GA5136@plum.flirble.org> References: <20090102133044.GA5136@plum.flirble.org> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90901020800h5d2f3136td3a0b44419887ca4@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jan 2, 2009 at 5:30 AM, Andrew Back wrote: > I have a PDP11/53, which on inspection contains 2x M7651: > > - One cabled to a same-sized card made by Logica and marked 3490/300 > - One cabled to a double-sized card marked 3350/304 (assuming Logica) > > Both these cards appear to be SCSI controllers, but does anyone know any > more about them? And I'm wondering if there might be some hoops to jump > through in their use, E.g. only support certain drives or require a patched > O/S. > The first reference you should check is pdp11-field-guide.txt which lists the M7651 as the DRV11-WA General-Purpose DMA Interface. You can find the manual by searching for EK-DRVWA-UG The other boards to which they are attached are most likely special purpose application boards and not any sort of general purpose SCSI controllers. From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Jan 2 10:05:04 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 08:05:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: shades of Zune: the Apple Newton 2010 problem Message-ID: <200901021605.n02G54IB017442@floodgap.com> Just in time for the New Year, except with some warning, that Newton OS 2.x will go brown and down just like the Zunes did. However, N2K isn't until 2010. Anyone a Newton hacker who wants to try to fix the now provably b0rk3d solution? Some posts of note: http://myapplenewton.blogspot.com/search/label/2010%20bug -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- A good pun is its own reword. ---------------------------------------------- From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 2 10:39:40 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 11:39:40 -0500 Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: <20090102082934.e561f117.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <200812312127.mBVLR8PQ014734@floodgap.com> <016701c96c1f$d32fc900$46fea8c0@DeskJara> <20090102082934.e561f117.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <3BED4C93-7CA3-4684-A4A0-C39FE01251A9@neurotica.com> On Jan 2, 2009, at 2:29 AM, Jochen Kunz wrote: >> AVR microcontrollers are said optimized for C, but there is an >> excellent assembler, the AVR Studio. > They are "optimized for C" in the sense that there architecture makes > it easy to implement C. (Flat memory, lots of registers, stack ...) I > did a project in AVR assembler. AVRs are much easier to assembler code > then the i8051. (The i8051 is a braindead, awkward POS. A typical > intel > design... I used it once and will never again.) Today I do all my uC > hacking with avr-gcc. The oposit may be the PIC. Due to the PIC > architecture a C implementation is a bit tricky. I dunno, I rather like the mcs51 architecture. I use it quite a bit. Far nicer than other Intel designs. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From andrew at smokebelch.org Fri Jan 2 11:43:54 2009 From: andrew at smokebelch.org (Andrew Back) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 17:43:54 +0000 Subject: ID'ing Q-Bus cards. In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90901020800h5d2f3136td3a0b44419887ca4@mail.gmail.com> References: <20090102133044.GA5136@plum.flirble.org> <1e1fc3e90901020800h5d2f3136td3a0b44419887ca4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090102174354.GC5136@plum.flirble.org> On (08:00 02/01/09), Glen Slick wrote: > On Fri, Jan 2, 2009 at 5:30 AM, Andrew Back wrote: > > I have a PDP11/53, which on inspection contains 2x M7651: > > > > - One cabled to a same-sized card made by Logica and marked 3490/300 > > - One cabled to a double-sized card marked 3350/304 (assuming Logica) > > > > Both these cards appear to be SCSI controllers, but does anyone know any > > more about them? And I'm wondering if there might be some hoops to jump > > through in their use, E.g. only support certain drives or require a patched > > O/S. > > > > The first reference you should check is pdp11-field-guide.txt which > lists the M7651 as the DRV11-WA General-Purpose DMA Interface. You > can find the manual by searching for EK-DRVWA-UG > > The other boards to which they are attached are most likely special > purpose application boards and not any sort of general purpose SCSI > controllers. The only other board I've not ID'ed is an Emulex CS-041021, and the machine was hooked-up to another cabinet containing a Fujitsu M2263SA SCSI drive. The Logica boards terminate on the cab at 50 pin D types, one male and one female. The Emulex terminates at a 34 pin IDC connector. Andrew -- Andrew Back a at smokebelch.org From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Jan 2 12:50:56 2009 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 10:50:56 -0800 Subject: ID'ing Q-Bus cards. In-Reply-To: <20090102174354.GC5136@plum.flirble.org> References: <20090102133044.GA5136@plum.flirble.org> <1e1fc3e90901020800h5d2f3136td3a0b44419887ca4@mail.gmail.com> <20090102174354.GC5136@plum.flirble.org> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90901021050u7ad2fc4ahf47e859e21cdee4@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jan 2, 2009 at 9:43 AM, Andrew Back wrote: > > The only other board I've not ID'ed is an Emulex CS-041021, and the machine > was hooked-up to another cabinet containing a Fujitsu M2263SA SCSI drive. > The Logica boards terminate on the cab at 50 pin D types, one male and one > female. The Emulex terminates at a 34 pin IDC connector. > pdp11-field-guide.txt lists the CS04 as an Emulex 16-64-line RS-232/422 communications controller. Emulates 2-8 DHV11s. From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Jan 2 13:18:40 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 11:18:40 -0800 Subject: More ID questions: Centronics 503 printer Message-ID: I've had this printer for a while, but I've never found a reference to it in any literature. It bears the legend 'Centronics 503' on the front. It's a wide carriage tractor-feed character printer on a pedestal stand, and actually works pretty well. It's that slightly-orange yellow that I remember Data General being fond of for a while. One of the other things about it: I have a full case of ribbons for it. I've been unable to find a cross-reference that might tell me if there is any other printer that takes these. Any suggestions? -- Ian UNIX is user friendly. It's just selective about who its friends are. Ian S. King, Vintage Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. http://www.pdpplanet.org From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Jan 2 13:22:33 2009 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 20:22:33 +0100 Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: <3BED4C93-7CA3-4684-A4A0-C39FE01251A9@neurotica.com> References: <200812312127.mBVLR8PQ014734@floodgap.com> <016701c96c1f$d32fc900$46fea8c0@DeskJara> <20090102082934.e561f117.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <3BED4C93-7CA3-4684-A4A0-C39FE01251A9@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20090102202233.ec36f876.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 2 Jan 2009 11:39:40 -0500 Dave McGuire wrote: [i8051] > Far nicer than other Intel designs. This is easy, due to the awkward braindamage of typical intel designs. Did we already talk about iAPX432? ;-) Even when coding assembler, an AVR is much nicer to code for then an i8051. I did only a single project in i8051 assembler. It was disgusting. Then I saw the light of AVR assembler and never looked back. That was about 10 years ago. Now we have avr-gcc and so I don't care much about the actual uC architecture. Today the availability of a good, free C compiler toolchain + cheap and simple ISP programmer is more important to me. avr-gcc + avr-gdb + avr-libc + avrdude = fun. Lots of it. :-) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 2 13:25:22 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 19:25:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: <495DB682.6070207@jbrain.com> from "Jim Brain" at Jan 2, 9 00:38:58 am Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > >>> I don;t know how much firmware space you have, but it would be nice if at > >>> least Amigo and SS/80 could be fitted in together with a jumper/switch to > >>> select between them. I'd also suggest some kind of configuration > >>> switch-thingy to select the drive size -- some HP machines moan if the > >>> drive is not the one they're expecting... > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> Anything is possible. > >> > > > > ... except skiing through a revolving door :-) > > > > More seriously, there must be a limit to the code size. > > > The unit I am using has 128kB of space, of which I am using 4kB for a I don't know how code size for that processor compares to similar code on the 6809 (which always stuck me as being memory-efficient), but I would think you had enough space for both of the HP protocols. > bootloader and 51K so far for uIEC DOS. But, a HPIB/GPIB based unit can > dispense with things like D64 images and such, so I think there may be > plenty of room. There are provisions for 3 switch inputs, which could > be used for drive and interface selection. It *might* be possible to If oyou use one switch to select between SS/80 and Amigo (protocol), that leaves 2 switches for drive type. Not really enough. And what are you going to do about sleecting the HPIB primary address (HP units normally had 3 switches for this, allowing addresses from 0 to 7 only). > load everything into one firmware image, but I think it'd be best to > keep the CBM/non-CBM stuff separate. I would agree. While I have both sorts of machine here, I wouldn't object to buying/building 2 units, one for each :-). The other thing to consider wouldf be Tektronix 405x format. I think those could use HPIB drives. Philip knows more, I think. > I'm planning on OC outputs. I beleive that makes it slower, but anyway... > > My idea is to make the ATA (IDE) interface do double duty. As I look at > the signal table for ATA, I notice a few unused states: > > /CS0 & /CS1 = IEEE CS > A0 selects data or control lines > READ selects a read > WRITE selects a write > > I'll probably use the 75160/75161 ($4.00 for SOIC, $2.80 for DIP for the Are those still being made? I wouldn't want to design round a chip that's in short supply. FWIW, I've had some early HP HPIB units on the bench recently, and HP used '38s as driers (open collector) and '14s as receivers (schmitt trigger inputs). Of course using thsoe put the package count up. > two ICs), though I prefer '245s for the inputs and TPIC6B273s for the > outputs. (3.40+.82 = 4.42 for the 4 ICs). > > A single '138 should decode what I need from the IDE control signals. I would guess you'd need latches and buffers between the IDE us and the IEEE-488 chips. -tony From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Jan 2 13:49:51 2009 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 20:49:51 +0100 Subject: What kind of IC is this In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20081231115327.074af3a0@mail.threedee.com> References: <20081230193428.69f05be5.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <495A8EFD.7060208@philpem.me.uk> <20081230223036.d5a23737.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <495AAB50.6080507@philpem.me.uk> <2C535D4C-0F9D-4FDC-BEAB-283BE688F3D7@neurotica.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20081231115327.074af3a0@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: <20090102204951.c3a2aaf5.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 31 Dec 2008 11:54:53 -0600 John Foust wrote: > He would bring this bad > part -- a capacitor, a pot, a transistor, an IC, or whatever -- over > to the vise and lay it on the anvil part. Then he would calmly, > methodically beat it with a hammer until the smallest remaining part > was indistinguishable from the dust on the floor. This shows how to fix a unfixable camera lens that way: http://www.hermes.net.au/bayling/repair.html -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Jan 2 14:30:25 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 14:30:25 -0600 Subject: Z80 instruction fetch mechanism Message-ID: <495E7961.7030005@gmail.com> Someone asked this over on the Sinclair group a short while ago, but I suddenly thought that someone here might know... Basically they were wondering what the internals of the Z80's instruction fetch were, given that some instructions are multiple bytes in length, but there's only a single-byte instruction register. I theorised that control in the Z80 is all just a state machine, so multiple instruction bytes presumably advance things to a new state (and what's left in the IR during execution is just one byte from a multi-byte instruction) - but it sounds like the OP was wondering if anyone knew the exact mechanism (basically, has the design of the state machine ever been documented anywhere). (Given that I'm on a 'homebrew CPU' trip right now, I'm rather curious, too :-) Quite possibly this level of detail's never been made publicly available, but I figure someone here may have had close involvement with Zilog and know more. Online resources cover the overall internal architecture, but just 'black box' the control logic section (including the IR). cheers Jules From innfoclassics at gmail.com Fri Jan 2 14:35:23 2009 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 12:35:23 -0800 Subject: ID'ing Q-Bus cards. In-Reply-To: <20090102133044.GA5136@plum.flirble.org> References: <20090102133044.GA5136@plum.flirble.org> Message-ID: > I have a PDP11/53, which on inspection contains 2x M7651: > > - One cabled to a same-sized card made by Logica and marked 3490/300 > - One cabled to a double-sized card marked 3350/304 (assuming Logica) > > Both these cards appear to be SCSI controllers, but does anyone know any > more about them? And I'm wondering if there might be some hoops to jump > through in their use, E.g. only support certain drives or require a patched > O/S. The 3490 is an IBM Tape Drive Subsystem and the 3350 is an IBM DASD disk drive. both usually hooked up to IBM mainframes. Neither are SCSI. We went through a lot of these peripherals in the1990s. The last 3350 we got went to a collector. The 3550s were usually controlled by a 3880 which could handle up to 4 of them, if I remember correctly. It looks to me that the cards were for hooking up to these IBM peripherals. Interesting set of cards. I have never heard of them. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jan 2 14:53:40 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 15:53:40 -0500 Subject: ID'ing Q-Bus cards. In-Reply-To: References: <20090102133044.GA5136@plum.flirble.org> Message-ID: > We went through a lot of these peripherals in the1990s. The last 3350 > we got went to a collector. The 3550s were usually controlled by a > 3880 which could handle up to 4 of them, if I remember correctly. 3350s were originally controlled by the 3830. I do not think all 3880s could control 3350s - there may have been a microcode upgrade involved. I am always on the lookout of a 3880 and 3380s. And more 3350s, for that matter. -- Will From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Jan 2 18:50:18 2009 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 18:50:18 -0600 Subject: I scanned some stuff Message-ID: <51ea77730901021650x58c2e983je1c6b66fffb46cbd@mail.gmail.com> I have started up a document archive made up of stuff I've had sitting around the house and storage that needs to go. Here it is: http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/ I'm trying to make sure I don't waste time by scanning stuff that's already out there. Consequently, I'm probably also scanning things no one will ever want. But hey, archiving is archiving. I'm starting with ringbound docs I don't have to destroy to scan, or things I didn't consider all that valuable. Stuff that I don't destroy or recycle will be sold or (more likely) given away. Top of that pile right now is the Atari 400/800 BASIC Reference Guide and the 410 Operator's Guide. They are free for the cost of shipping from 60074. They are together in a lovely "Atari Home Computers" ring binder and not all that light. Enjoy, and more to come! -j -- silent700.blogspot.com Retrocomputing and collecting in the Chicago area: http://chiclassiccomp.org From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Jan 2 20:10:16 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 18:10:16 -0800 Subject: More ID questions: Centronics 503 printer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > From: IanK at vulcan.com > > I've had this printer for a while, but I've never found a reference to it in any literature. It bears the legend 'Centronics 503' on the front. It's a wide carriage tractor-feed character printer on a pedestal stand, and actually works pretty well. It's that slightly-orange yellow that I remember Data General being fond of for a while. > > One of the other things about it: I have a full case of ribbons for it. I've been unable to find a cross-reference that might tell me if there is any other printer that takes these. Any suggestions? -- Ian > > > > > Hi I know what a 603 is but not a 503. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Send e-mail anywhere. No map, no compass. http://windowslive.com/oneline/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_anywhere_122008 From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jan 2 20:51:21 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 02:51:21 +0000 (GMT) Subject: I scanned some stuff In-Reply-To: <51ea77730901021650x58c2e983je1c6b66fffb46cbd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <914563.60491.qm@web23404.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Thanks for that. I had a look incase there was anything of interest and found a PDF of the Toy Bizarre manual (C64). I actually have the Spectrum version, without a manual - it was either part of the 6 game lightgun Spectrum pack (sold here in the UK in the late 80's/early 90's), or the 30 games boxset I got. I can't remember which right now. It was a very fun game, but it had a habit of crashing quite regularly so it didn't get played too much. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Sat, 3/1/09, Jason T wrote: From: Jason T Subject: I scanned some stuff To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Saturday, 3 January, 2009, 12:50 AM I have started up a document archive made up of stuff I've had sitting around the house and storage that needs to go. Here it is: http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/ I'm trying to make sure I don't waste time by scanning stuff that's already out there. Consequently, I'm probably also scanning things no one will ever want. But hey, archiving is archiving. I'm starting with ringbound docs I don't have to destroy to scan, or things I didn't consider all that valuable. Stuff that I don't destroy or recycle will be sold or (more likely) given away. Top of that pile right now is the Atari 400/800 BASIC Reference Guide and the 410 Operator's Guide. They are free for the cost of shipping from 60074. They are together in a lovely "Atari Home Computers" ring binder and not all that light. Enjoy, and more to come! -j -- silent700.blogspot.com Retrocomputing and collecting in the Chicago area: http://chiclassiccomp.org From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 2 20:51:58 2009 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2009 02:51:58 +0000 Subject: ACS Altos 3068 Message-ID: <495ED2CE.4010201@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Hi there, Am I the only person on the planet that still has one of these machines ? The perticular example I have has 4M of ram and a 70M disk, and is running SysV unix. Acording to the documentation and the back of the machine, it has a SCSI-1 interface however I have never been able to get this working. I think I heard somewhere that the SCSI required a later version of the OS, I'm not sure exactly what version of unix I have, looking at my /etc/issue, seems to be SysV R2.2, does anyone have a later version ? Also I have heard that the source code for the OS was available, would anyone have such a beast ? Cheers. Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Jan 2 20:57:22 2009 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 20:57:22 -0600 Subject: I scanned some stuff In-Reply-To: <914563.60491.qm@web23404.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <51ea77730901021650x58c2e983je1c6b66fffb46cbd@mail.gmail.com> <914563.60491.qm@web23404.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730901021857n1d3f73adj3b282262611ff75c@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jan 2, 2009 at 8:51 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: > > Thanks for that. > > I had a look incase there was anything of interest and found a PDF of the Toy Bizarre manual (C64). I actually have the Spectrum version, without a manual - it was either part of the 6 game lightgun Spectrum pack (sold here in the UK in the late 80's/early 90's), or the 30 games boxset I got. I can't remember which right now. It was a very fun game, but it had a habit of crashing quite regularly so it didn't get played too much. You must have browsed it seconds after I uploaded it :) It's a small archive now, but there is much to add as long as I have access to a decent scanner. I'm mostly happy with the php file browser script I'm using there. One feature I'd like is an RSS feed of new additions, as is found on Bitsavers. Guess I'll just have to learn to write one.... I'm doing the C64 Mach5 cart manual now. -j From brain at jbrain.com Fri Jan 2 21:51:07 2009 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 21:51:07 -0600 Subject: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <495EE0AB.7060401@jbrain.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> Tony Duell wrote: >> > If oyou use one switch to select between SS/80 and Amigo (protocol), that > leaves 2 switches for drive type. Not really enough. And what are you > going to do about sleecting the HPIB primary address (HP units normally > had 3 switches for this, allowing addresses from 0 to 7 only). > Not sure. I do have the ability to add an entire latch of switches on the IDE bus (like I am adding the IEEE-488 support.) On the current unit, you send commands to the unit through the command channel to change such things, so maybe that is another option (pick the command set from the front, then issue a command to pick a device type and choose an alternte address). On the latter, the uIEC supports the same idea. It boots as device #10, and you can modify it via software. So, you put it alone on the bus, issue a command to change the number, saves it in EEPROM, and then you plug in the rest of the units. > Are those still being made? I wouldn't want to design round a chip that's > in short supply. > Actually, they are. When I was composing the email, I initially wrote about using latches and transceivers, but then decided (with this crowd) I should do a bit more investigation before I posted. Along the say, I found the 75XXX units, and they weren't that bad in price. But, right after I rewrote the msg and sent it, I realized that I'd still need 2 latches to hold the outputs for the 16 bits of IEEE data, and another latch to save off the TE state (on the 75XXX ICs). As well, I'd be locked into IEEE 488 usage. So, I scrapped my idea, and went back to my original ideas, TPIC6B273s and 74LS245s. It's the same price, and I could support more interfaces. > FWIW, I've had some early HP HPIB units on the bench recently, and HP > used '38s as driers (open collector) and '14s as receivers (schmitt > trigger inputs). Of course using thsoe put the package count up. > '38s are somewhat iffy, in my mind. MC3446 and the 75XXX line sink 100mA, and the '38 is 48, max. Coupled with the higher parts count (4 '38s, plus 2 '374s = 6 parts as opposed to 2), the price is only marginally better (3.40 versus 2.40). If the solution finds value outside of the vintage community, I could see one on a long GPIB chain, and I'd hate to fail in that case. With 150mA sink, I'll be the last one on the bus to fail. Jim From frustum at pacbell.net Fri Jan 2 22:09:36 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 22:09:36 -0600 Subject: Z80 instruction fetch mechanism In-Reply-To: <495E7961.7030005@gmail.com> References: <495E7961.7030005@gmail.com> Message-ID: <495EE500.4030201@pacbell.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > > Someone asked this over on the Sinclair group a short while ago, but I > suddenly thought that someone here might know... > > Basically they were wondering what the internals of the Z80's > instruction fetch were, given that some instructions are multiple bytes > in length, but there's only a single-byte instruction register. > > I theorised that control in the Z80 is all just a state machine, so > multiple instruction bytes presumably advance things to a new state (and > what's left in the IR during execution is just one byte from a > multi-byte instruction) - but it sounds like the OP was wondering if > anyone knew the exact mechanism (basically, has the design of the state > machine ever been documented anywhere). > > (Given that I'm on a 'homebrew CPU' trip right now, I'm rather curious, > too :-) > > Quite possibly this level of detail's never been made publicly > available, but I figure someone here may have had close involvement with > Zilog and know more. Online resources cover the overall internal > architecture, but just 'black box' the control logic section (including > the IR). Rodnay Zaks had a fat Z80 book that went into quite some detail of the timing of the bus and mentioned a hidden "W" register, but I don't recall what that was for -- holding a byte temporarily during some do-si-do. I have the book but it is buried in the garage. I have no doubt prefix bytes, (CB, ED, DD, FD) just set a flop that modify the interpretation of subsequent fetches -- that is more economical than storing the entire byte (or two bytes in some cases). Immediates and IX/IY offsets just go right to the latch in front of the ALU. I'll try and find the book. From frustum at pacbell.net Fri Jan 2 22:31:48 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 22:31:48 -0600 Subject: Z80 instruction fetch mechanism In-Reply-To: <495EE500.4030201@pacbell.net> References: <495E7961.7030005@gmail.com> <495EE500.4030201@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <495EEA34.4030606@pacbell.net> Jim Battle wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: >> >> Someone asked this over on the Sinclair group a short while ago, but I >> suddenly thought that someone here might know... >> >> Basically they were wondering what the internals of the Z80's >> instruction fetch were, given that some instructions are multiple >> bytes in length, but there's only a single-byte instruction register. ... > Rodnay Zaks had a fat Z80 book that went into quite some detail of the > timing of the bus and mentioned a hidden "W" register, but I don't > recall what that was for -- holding a byte temporarily during some > do-si-do. I have the book but it is buried in the garage. I have a Radio Shack publication "How To Program the Z80" by Rodnay Zaks, but I'm 99% sure it was sold previously via a standard publishing house and RS just had this version with the different jacket. Chapter 2 is the one you want. It goes through an instruction fetch and exectute sequence clock phase by clock phase, and shows what happens each cycle. T1: PC Out (HL gated on to address bus) T2: PC=PC+1 T3: INST into IR, start decoding T4: decode and execute (minimum case -- more cycles needed often) He steps through these instructions LD D,C (explains that it needs 5 T states instead of four, because the register file is not dual ported) ADD A,r he shows that an extra clock phase is introduced that slows down the execution of this instruction, but really is used to start the fetch of the next instruction -- there is a slight amount of fetch/execute overlap. Figure 2.27 shows the bus activity and some internal bus activity for each 8080 instruction, cycle by cycle, lifted from an intel data book, so somewhere this information was already public. ADD A,(HL) A more complicated example. ADD A,(nnnn) This shows the use of two hidden registers, W and Z -- they are analogous to another 16b BC pair. These hold the immediate 16b address fetch, since the CPU needs to hold a 16b value for the duration of that instruction that isn't retained afterward. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 2 23:22:08 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 00:22:08 -0500 Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: <20090102202233.ec36f876.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <200812312127.mBVLR8PQ014734@floodgap.com> <016701c96c1f$d32fc900$46fea8c0@DeskJara> <20090102082934.e561f117.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <3BED4C93-7CA3-4684-A4A0-C39FE01251A9@neurotica.com> <20090102202233.ec36f876.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <3D4E0679-40E6-4271-B890-3011DB741B15@neurotica.com> On Jan 2, 2009, at 2:22 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > [i8051] >> Far nicer than other Intel designs. > This is easy, due to the awkward braindamage of typical intel designs. > Did we already talk about iAPX432? ;-) > > Even when coding assembler, an AVR is much nicer to code for then an > i8051. I did only a single project in i8051 assembler. It was > disgusting. Then I saw the light of AVR assembler and never looked > back. That was about 10 years ago. Now we have avr-gcc and so I don't > care much about the actual uC architecture. Today the availability > of a > good, free C compiler toolchain + cheap and simple ISP programmer is > more important to me. > avr-gcc + avr-gdb + avr-libc + avrdude = fun. Lots of it. :-) Many have said good things about AVR...including a few people whose opinions I value, now including you. I plan to check it out someday. For now, my "tiny" projects use PIC, my "small/medium" projects use various 8051 implementations, and my "big" projects use ARM. I will add AVR to that list when I have some time to check it out. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sat Jan 3 00:04:13 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 22:04:13 -0800 Subject: Video pinouts for Sony SMC-70G Message-ID: <495EFFDD.2020806@mail.msu.edu> Just acquired one of these bad boys and I've found very little info on it -- it appears to have two video out connectors -- a 25-pin D-sub labeled "RGB Multi Out" and an 8-pin DIN labeled "B/W Multi Out." Anyone know the pinouts of these? Any ideas what kind of monitor I can expect to use with this machine? Anyone have manuals/software archived? I've found an image of a CP/M boot disk at http://ahm.ath.cx/smc70/, but that's about it. Thanks! Josh From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sat Jan 3 00:11:56 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 22:11:56 -0800 Subject: Suggestions for VT103? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <495F01AC.7080404@mail.msu.edu> Thanks for all the good advice (from everyone) on this thread. I need to wander out and find some good wirewrap wire & the appropriate solder and I'll let you know how I fare with the solder fest :). Josh Tony Duell wrote: >> So forgive my inexperience here -- but just to make sure I'm >> understanding the changes I need to make -- is all that's necessary just >> wiring up the address lines (18-21) from slot 1, to slot 2, to slot 3, >> to slot 4? >> > > Yes, but I think it's _twice_ on each slot (the Q-bus being based round > dual-height boards). So a total of 8 points to link for each of 4 wires. > > But it is just a matter of running wires between those points and > soldering them down. > > > >> Also, just to satisfy my curiosity -- it's been mentioned by several >> people that lead-based solder is necessary -- why is this? (I think I >> > > Is there ever a good reason not to use leaded solder in homebrew stuff > and classic computer repairs (neither of which come under any RoHS > directives in the UK)? > > It is a very bad idea to mix solders, the worst way, or so I am told is > to use lead-free solder on a PCB that was originally soldered with leaded > solder (the VT103 certainly was!) The resuling lead-free solder > contaminated with a little lead produces a very poor, brittle, joint. > > >> have a spool of it somewhere that I liberated from my grandfather's >> basement some years back, but I'll have to dig it up...) >> > > This is electornic-grade resin-cored solder, I hope!. You can still buy > leaded solderm at least in the UK, fortunately. > > -tony > > > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Jan 2 02:25:32 2009 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 03:25:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: <495D5CAE.4185.2061A3B4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200812312127.mBVLR8PQ014734@floodgap.com>, <016701c96c1f$d32fc900$46fea8c0@DeskJara>, <20090102082934.e561f117.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <495D5CAE.4185.2061A3B4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200901020828.DAA23487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Since SP is in I/O space and not register space, it takes extra > instructions to perform stack-relative addressing (got to get SP into > X, Y, or Z) for stack-local variables, etc. Nothing says that the hardware's stack has to be the same as the C local-variable stack, and indeed on an architecture like that it might be smarter to use the hardware's stack - the thing SP points to - only for return addresses, with local variables and arguments kept on a separate stack, maintained by the function call/return boilerplate. Of course, that means you have to keep the data stack pointer somewhere, since you can't keep it in SP for free.... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From nierveze at radio-astronomie.com Fri Jan 2 03:27:56 2009 From: nierveze at radio-astronomie.com (nierveze) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 10:27:56 +0100 Subject: T-11 (was Re: PDP-11/70 cache memory) References: <002101c96c2a$02369e90$06a3dbb0$@com><495D1D5F.6010803@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <009501c96cbc$68763ac0$04000005@pc> 'interresting' ...it depends of what you like :-)) there is a version of unix ,called bkunix , use babelfish ,it is the one that translate best http://groups.google.ru/group/bk0010/web/bkunix a version of dos called andos,and standalone languages like focal and basic (vilnius basic),assembler called mirage . schematics in djvu format and documentation are http://groups.google.ru/group/bk0010/web/schematics to read and print djvu files I use djvusolo3.1 alain ----- Message d'origine ----- De : "Adam Sampson" ? : "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Envoy? : vendredi 2 janvier 2009 01:22 Objet : Re: T-11 (was Re: PDP-11/70 cache memory) > "bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca" writes: > > > Yes you can do it legally ... IMPORT from behind the IRON CURTIAN. :) > > Does this solve the software problem too -- i.e. are there any > interesting Russian operating systems you could run on a T-11 SBC? > > -- > Adam Sampson > From chrise at pobox.com Fri Jan 2 11:17:24 2009 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 11:17:24 -0600 Subject: AMI S2350 USRT datasheet? Message-ID: <20090102171724.GD4097@n0jcf.net> Does anyone happen to have a datasheet or scans from a databook for the AMI S2350 USRT? This is a synchronous receiver/transmitter that was used in several floppy controllers-- including the Heath H17/H88-1 and a PERCOM SS-50 bus (for SWTPC 6800) system that I have. I cannot find any documents for this beast online. I also tried contacting ON Semiconductor who now own AMI but they claim to be unable to find said datasheet. It should be circa 1979, 1980 I believe... if anyone has an AMI databook from that period. Thanks. Chris -- Chris Elmquist mailto:chrise at pobox.com From jrr at flippers.com Fri Jan 2 12:44:11 2009 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 10:44:11 -0800 Subject: AMI S2350 USRT datasheet? In-Reply-To: <20090102171724.GD4097@n0jcf.net> References: <20090102171724.GD4097@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <495E607B.20103@flippers.com> Chris Elmquist wrote: > Does anyone happen to have a datasheet or scans from a databook for the > AMI S2350 USRT? This is a synchronous receiver/transmitter that was used > in several floppy controllers-- including the Heath H17/H88-1 and a PERCOM > SS-50 bus (for SWTPC 6800) system that I have. > > I cannot find any documents for this beast online. I also tried contacting > ON Semiconductor who now own AMI but they claim to be unable to find said > datasheet. > > It should be circa 1979, 1980 I believe... if anyone has an AMI databook > from that period. > > Thanks. > > Chris > > It is shown in my copy of the AMI 1981 Catalog - pages 5-119 through 5-126 inclusive. I can scan that for you later (email me) but I am just a bit busy doing year-end books and can't get around to it for a few days. This does cover pinout and pin definitions plus timing diagrams. John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri Jan 2 19:44:20 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 20:44:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: Z80 instruction fetch mechanism In-Reply-To: <495E7961.7030005@gmail.com> References: <495E7961.7030005@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Jan 2009, Jules Richardson wrote: > Someone asked this over on the Sinclair group a short while ago, but I > suddenly thought that someone here might know... > > Basically they were wondering what the internals of the Z80's instruction > fetch were, given that some instructions are multiple bytes in length, but > there's only a single-byte instruction register. > > I theorised that control in the Z80 is all just a state machine, so multiple > instruction bytes presumably advance things to a new state (and what's left > in the IR during execution is just one byte from a multi-byte instruction) - > but it sounds like the OP was wondering if anyone knew the exact mechanism > (basically, has the design of the state machine ever been documented > anywhere). Wasn't the Z80 a microcoded design? -- From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 3 04:25:17 2009 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2009 10:25:17 +0000 Subject: ACS Altos 3068 In-Reply-To: <20090102.232332.16980.0@webmail02.vgs.untd.com> References: <20090102.232332.16980.0@webmail02.vgs.untd.com> Message-ID: <495F3D0D.6090207@aurigae.demon.co.uk> jeff.kaneko at juno.com wrote: > WHat's the approximate vintage of this machine? > I'm asking because many early designs (pre 1988, About the 1986-88 time frame. > or so) used non-standard 'SCSI like' interfaces > to talk to ST-506 or ESDI drives. Well the machine's drives are ST-506 MFM drives controled by a WD2010, though oddly with 16 sec/trk rather than the more normal 17, that most PC MFM interfaces used. It also has a QIC-02 60M tape drive, and a 1.2M Floppy. > The Adaptec ACB-4000 was such a device, for example. > It was marketed as a SCSI bridge, but in reality it > was closer to SASI. OMTI made similar boards, > and you could almost never sub one for the other > because of different implementations of SCSI. Yeah I have an external disk box for the RM-186 that as I believe a Xybec SASI to ST-506 board in it, I tried getting that to talk to a moden controler and it would not, though I have recently discovered that Adaptec SCSI cards don't seem to like really old drive like this which may have been part of the problem in that case. > I saying all of this because if this is true, then > attaching a modern SCSI drive will get you nowhere. Indeed, though it is labeled as SCSI on the back of the machine, and I remeber there being a similar looking SCSI chip in there to the ones in the Sun-3 systems I used to own. Cheers. Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From coredump at gifford.co.uk Sat Jan 3 08:46:39 2009 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2009 14:46:39 +0000 Subject: Z80 instruction fetch mechanism In-Reply-To: <495EEA34.4030606@pacbell.net> References: <495E7961.7030005@gmail.com> <495EE500.4030201@pacbell.net> <495EEA34.4030606@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <495F7A4F.5010901@gifford.co.uk> Jim Battle wrote: > I have a Radio Shack publication "How To Program the Z80" by Rodnay > Zaks, but I'm 99% sure it was sold previously via a standard publishing > house and RS just had this version with the different jacket. Yes, that is correct. I have both versions! The original was called "Programming the Z80" and was sold by Sybex along with "Programming the 6502" and "Programming the 6809". -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From frustum at pacbell.net Sat Jan 3 08:55:43 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2009 08:55:43 -0600 Subject: Z80 instruction fetch mechanism In-Reply-To: References: <495E7961.7030005@gmail.com> Message-ID: <495F7C6F.3050200@pacbell.net> Steven Hirsch wrote: ... > > Wasn't the Z80 a microcoded design? no! the same guy who did the 8080 layout, masatoshi shima, did the z80 layout. He also did the z8000 layout, which was much more complex, but was also not microcode, just random logic. I just found this while googling to support my answer, but i've only skimmed it - a 47 page interview with Shima, done by the CHM: http://www.ieee.org/portal/cms_docs_iportals/iportals/aboutus/history_center/oral_history/pdfs/Shima197.pdf From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Jan 3 09:32:34 2009 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 16:32:34 +0100 Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: <3D4E0679-40E6-4271-B890-3011DB741B15@neurotica.com> References: <200812312127.mBVLR8PQ014734@floodgap.com> <016701c96c1f$d32fc900$46fea8c0@DeskJara> <20090102082934.e561f117.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <3BED4C93-7CA3-4684-A4A0-C39FE01251A9@neurotica.com> <20090102202233.ec36f876.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <3D4E0679-40E6-4271-B890-3011DB741B15@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20090103163234.61bd1d38.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sat, 3 Jan 2009 00:22:08 -0500 Dave McGuire wrote: > For now, my "tiny" projects use PIC, my "small/medium" projects use > various 8051 implementations, and my "big" projects use ARM. One additional advantage of AVR is the range from tiny 8 pin devices to fat QFP packages with up to a few 100 kB RAM + a few kB of EEPROM and all sorts of IO. (PWM, CAN, USB, ADC, I2C, ...) So you can replace anything below ARM with a single architekture. > I will add AVR to that list when I have some time to check it out. Call me the AVR missionary! ;-) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From frustum at pacbell.net Sat Jan 3 09:34:54 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2009 09:34:54 -0600 Subject: Z80 instruction fetch mechanism In-Reply-To: <495F7C6F.3050200@pacbell.net> References: <495E7961.7030005@gmail.com> <495F7C6F.3050200@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <495F859E.6000500@pacbell.net> Jim Battle wrote: > Steven Hirsch wrote: > ... >> >> Wasn't the Z80 a microcoded design? > > no! the same guy who did the 8080 layout, masatoshi shima, did the z80 > layout. He also did the z8000 layout, which was much more complex, but > was also not microcode, just random logic. > > I just found this while googling to support my answer, but i've only > skimmed it - a 47 page interview with Shima, done by the CHM: > > http://www.ieee.org/portal/cms_docs_iportals/iportals/aboutus/history_center/oral_history/pdfs/Shima197.pdf > > Having read more, Shima did the logic design on the 4004, 8080 and z80, and did the layout on the 8080. I've also heard he led the layout for the z8000. It is quite interesting to compare Shima's version of 4004 history and Federico Fagin's. In Fagin's version, he virtually did everything himself, with a bit of help from Shima. In Shima's version of events, he and Ted Hoff did all the spec work and design down to the transistor level, and Fagin was the guy who knew the process and layout end of things. Fagin believes Intel has tried to erase his contribution to the 4004 and later intel processors in retaliation against his starting Zilog, yet Shima also went to zilog and isn't erased, and obviously Fagin and Shima had a good enough relationship to work together at zilog for years, and Shima gives Fagin credit only for the back end of the 4004 design flow. From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sat Jan 3 09:35:42 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 13:35:42 -0200 Subject: Video pinouts for Sony SMC-70G References: <495EFFDD.2020806@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <10df01c96db9$2d58c720$46fea8c0@DeskJara> > Just acquired one of these bad boys and I've found very little info on > it -- it appears to have two video out connectors -- a 25-pin D-sub > labeled "RGB Multi Out" and an 8-pin DIN labeled "B/W Multi Out." > Anyone know the pinouts of these? Any ideas what kind of monitor I can > expect to use with this machine? Interesting machine...looks like a MSX compatible! What sound/video processor it uses? From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Jan 3 09:50:14 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 07:50:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: Video pinouts for Sony SMC-70G In-Reply-To: <10df01c96db9$2d58c720$46fea8c0@DeskJara> from Alexandre Souza at "Jan 3, 9 01:35:42 pm" Message-ID: <200901031550.n03FoFSW008568@floodgap.com> > > Just acquired one of these bad boys and I've found very little info on > > it -- it appears to have two video out connectors -- a 25-pin D-sub > > labeled "RGB Multi Out" and an 8-pin DIN labeled "B/W Multi Out." > > Anyone know the pinouts of these? Any ideas what kind of monitor I can > > expect to use with this machine? > > Interesting machine...looks like a MSX compatible! What sound/video > processor it uses? It isn't, I'm pretty sure. I don't know a great deal about it, but I saw one at VCF East and the exhibitor made pains to point out it is NOT one of the Sony HitBit-type machines (which are their nominal MSX compatiboxen). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If you want divine justice, die. -- Nick Seldon ---------------------------- From frustum at pacbell.net Sat Jan 3 10:31:31 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2009 10:31:31 -0600 Subject: Z80 instruction fetch mechanism In-Reply-To: <495F859E.6000500@pacbell.net> References: <495E7961.7030005@gmail.com> <495F7C6F.3050200@pacbell.net> <495F859E.6000500@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <495F92E3.4040907@pacbell.net> Jim Battle wrote: > Jim Battle wrote: >> Steven Hirsch wrote: >> ... >>> >>> Wasn't the Z80 a microcoded design? >> >> no! the same guy who did the 8080 layout, masatoshi shima, did the >> z80 layout. He also did the z8000 layout, which was much more >> complex, but was also not microcode, just random logic. >> >> I just found this while googling to support my answer, but i've only >> skimmed it - a 47 page interview with Shima, done by the CHM: >> >> http://www.ieee.org/portal/cms_docs_iportals/iportals/aboutus/history_center/oral_history/pdfs/Shima197.pdf >> >> > > Having read more, Shima did the logic design on the 4004, 8080 and z80, > and did the layout on the 8080. I've also heard he led the layout for > the z8000. crap -- ... he also did the layout on the 8080 and z80, and led the layout for the z8000. From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sat Jan 3 11:01:05 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 15:01:05 -0200 Subject: Video pinouts for Sony SMC-70G References: <200901031550.n03FoFSW008568@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <116b01c96dc5$056cefa0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> >> Interesting machine...looks like a MSX compatible! What sound/video >> processor it uses? > It isn't, I'm pretty sure. I don't know a great deal about it, but I saw > one at VCF East and the exhibitor made pains to point out it is NOT one of > the Sony HitBit-type machines (which are their nominal MSX compatiboxen). Yep...just found its specs here. A completely different video processor (and lower resolution), and only 1 noise (you call that sound?!) channel. But a nice machine indeed :) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Jan 3 11:28:06 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2009 10:28:06 -0700 Subject: Z80 instruction fetch mechanism In-Reply-To: <495F7A4F.5010901@gifford.co.uk> References: <495E7961.7030005@gmail.com> <495EE500.4030201@pacbell.net> <495EEA34.4030606@pacbell.net> <495F7A4F.5010901@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: <495FA026.1040203@jetnet.ab.ca> John Honniball wrote: > Yes, that is correct. I have both versions! The original was called > "Programming the Z80" and was sold by Sybex along with "Programming > the 6502" and "Programming the 6809". And programming the Z8000 ... From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 3 12:29:10 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2009 10:29:10 -0800 Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: <200901020828.DAA23487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <200812312127.mBVLR8PQ014734@floodgap.com>, <495D5CAE.4185.2061A3B4@cclist.sydex.com>, <200901020828.DAA23487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <495F3DF6.4198.58260B3@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Jan 2009 at 3:25, der Mouse wrote: > Nothing says that the hardware's stack has to be the same as the C > local-variable stack, and indeed on an architecture like that it might > be smarter to use the hardware's stack - the thing SP points to - only > for return addresses, with local variables and arguments kept on a > separate stack, maintained by the function call/return boilerplate. > > Of course, that means you have to keep the data stack pointer > somewhere, since you can't keep it in SP for free.... I did say "C can probably be implemented on any binary CPU, given enough memory and ugliness". Probably even an 8x300. I work with both PICs and AVRs (my current project uses an ATMega128), but both instruction sets seem to me to be more than a bit contrived. The AVR less so than the PIC, but still on the "odd" side of the ledger. Why, for instance, on the AVR, am I restricted to 16-bit register pairs X, Y and Z? Why does LPM work only through Z? Why can't I use any register pair to address memory? To be fair, the TI MSP430 is a 16-bit chip, not an 8-bit one. Not that the TI chip doesn't have its drawbacks. It's available in 3.3v only and doesn't match the speed of higher-end PICs and AVRs (top clock speed for the 430 is, ISTR, 16MHz). The unified address space imposes limits on the size of RAM and program flash. But the instruction set's a marvel and the chip is extremely miserly with power. I'm not a 430 evangelist (and suspect that it will never enjoy the popularity of the PIC or AVR, which is a shame). I'll work with any instruction set, but I know what I'd prefer to use. It's curious that the MSP430's instruction set is close to the GI CP1600, where the PIC is descended from the very different 1650. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 3 13:58:24 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 19:58:24 +0000 (GMT) Subject: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: <495EE0AB.7060401@jbrain.com> from "Jim Brain" at Jan 2, 9 09:51:07 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > >> Tony Duell wrote: > >> > > If oyou use one switch to select between SS/80 and Amigo (protocol), that > > leaves 2 switches for drive type. Not really enough. And what are you > > going to do about sleecting the HPIB primary address (HP units normally > > had 3 switches for this, allowing addresses from 0 to 7 only). > > > Not sure. I do have the ability to add an entire latch of switches on > the IDE bus (like I am adding the IEEE-488 support.) On the current > unit, you send commands to the unit through the command channel to > change such things, so maybe that is another option (pick the command > set from the front, then issue a command to pick a device type and I think the HPIB address pretty much has to be set in hardware. I suppose other options could be set by sending commands to an otherwise unused secondary address, but it's a kludge, and I'd rather not have anything which doesn't _exactly_ follow the HP command set (for fear some program, somewhere, will use some undocumented HP command that happnes to clash with the configuration one). > > FWIW, I've had some early HP HPIB units on the bench recently, and HP > > used '38s as driers (open collector) and '14s as receivers (schmitt > > trigger inputs). Of course using thsoe put the package count up. > > > '38s are somewhat iffy, in my mind. MC3446 and the 75XXX line sink Quite so. I was just commenting on what HP used in their early devices. Later ones used 75160s and 75162s, 3448s, the HP custom buffer chip, and so on. I would be happy to look at any schematcs you come up with for HPIB and commetn on them (don't send them to me here, though!). -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jan 3 15:04:49 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 13:04:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Video pinouts for Sony SMC-70G In-Reply-To: <200901031550.n03FoFSW008568@floodgap.com> References: <200901031550.n03FoFSW008568@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20090103130242.C43002@shell.lmi.net> > Interesting machine...looks like a MSX compatible! It isn't. The Sony SMC-70 came out WAY before MSX. There was CP/M, and a proprietary OS and word Processor. It LOOKS like they commissioned an Italian designer for the case. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From spc at conman.org Sat Jan 3 15:49:51 2009 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 16:49:51 -0500 Subject: What kind of IC is this In-Reply-To: <20090102204951.c3a2aaf5.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20081230193428.69f05be5.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <495A8EFD.7060208@philpem.me.uk> <20081230223036.d5a23737.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <495AAB50.6080507@philpem.me.uk> <2C535D4C-0F9D-4FDC-BEAB-283BE688F3D7@neurotica.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20081231115327.074af3a0@mail.threedee.com> <20090102204951.c3a2aaf5.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20090103214951.GA28316@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Jochen Kunz once stated: > On Wed, 31 Dec 2008 11:54:53 -0600 > John Foust wrote: > > > He would bring this bad > > part -- a capacitor, a pot, a transistor, an IC, or whatever -- over > > to the vise and lay it on the anvil part. Then he would calmly, > > methodically beat it with a hammer until the smallest remaining part > > was indistinguishable from the dust on the floor. > This shows how to fix a unfixable camera lens that way: > http://www.hermes.net.au/bayling/repair.html I did something similar to a call phone that didn't quite survive a 3' fall. [1] -spc (Finally have a cell phone that's nothing more than a call phone) [1] http://boston.conman.org/2006/05/11.4 From keithvz at verizon.net Sat Jan 3 21:21:18 2009 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith) Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2009 22:21:18 -0500 Subject: I scanned some stuff In-Reply-To: <51ea77730901021650x58c2e983je1c6b66fffb46cbd@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730901021650x58c2e983je1c6b66fffb46cbd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49602B2E.4090902@verizon.net> Jason T wrote: > I'm trying to make sure I don't waste time by scanning stuff that's > already out there. Stuff that is already out there might be of much lower quality. If you shoot for high quality on all your scans, even your duplication probably isn't really duplication. IMHO, storage and transfer speeds are only going up and up --- I'd rather have a file take up a little more space and take a little longer to download, and have a better end result. > Consequently, I'm probably also scanning things no > one will ever want. While I have done a relatively small amount of scan-archiving (or whatever the heck its called), even if one person found it useful five years from now I would have considered it time well invested. I've been working on a retro-computing project for a couple years, and old-school original documentation is extremely valuable, and I'm always excited to find a new scan of some documentation that I can't find or didn't know existed. The power of the Internet with practically free duplication and instant delivery is nothing short of amazing wrt this type of work. > Enjoy, and more to come! Fantastic. Thanks for your hard work. There will be people thanking you in the future. > > -j > Keith From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Sat Jan 3 21:49:08 2009 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2009 19:49:08 -0800 Subject: Little Man Computer ( LMC ) simulator ? References: <0KCS00A8P2TXXQH7@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <000601c96e1f$65e35a90$0201a8c0@hal9000> Anybody in the group familiar with / have code / or seen a simulator for the Little Man Computer ( LMC ) ? It is a simplified theoretical computer architecture out of MIT from 1965 ( I believe ), not a computer for people with short stature. Best regards, Steven From jgessling at yahoo.com Sat Jan 3 23:17:49 2009 From: jgessling at yahoo.com (James Gessling) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 21:17:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: In the Christmas spirit Message-ID: <280168.40036.qm@web31907.mail.mud.yahoo.com> What IC is this, who, that I see On bench's top, is resting? Whom old timers greet with joy, while others are sleeping? This, this is the 4004 Whom collectors guard, make dealers sing: Haste, haste to bring it laud, The chip, the son of Intel! etc... From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Jan 3 23:47:32 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2009 22:47:32 -0700 Subject: In the Christmas spirit In-Reply-To: <280168.40036.qm@web31907.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <280168.40036.qm@web31907.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49604D74.1050100@jetnet.ab.ca> James Gessling wrote: > What IC is this, who, that I see > On bench's top, is resting? > Whom old timers greet with joy, > while others are sleeping? > This, this is the 4004 > Whom collectors guard, make dealers sing: > Haste, haste to bring it laud, > The chip, the son of Intel! > > etc... > oh mighty 4004 is now... Never-more From rborsuk at colourfull.com Sun Jan 4 00:07:38 2009 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 01:07:38 -0500 Subject: Anyone know what these boards are? Message-ID: Anyone know about these boards? ebay # 170291194981 Rob Rob Borsuk email: rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations Web: http://www.colourfull.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Jan 3 12:29:44 2009 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 10:29:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Video pinouts for Sony SMC-70G Message-ID: <583353.56171.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> it don't got MSX roms, no. --- On Sat, 1/3/09, Cameron Kaiser wrote: From: Cameron Kaiser Subject: Re: Video pinouts for Sony SMC-70G To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Date: Saturday, January 3, 2009, 10:50 AM > > Just acquired one of these bad boys and I've found very little info on > > it -- it appears to have two video out connectors -- a 25-pin D-sub > > labeled "RGB Multi Out" and an 8-pin DIN labeled "B/W Multi Out." > > Anyone know the pinouts of these?? Any ideas what kind of monitor I can > > expect to use with this machine? > >? ???Interesting machine...looks like a MSX compatible! What sound/video > processor it uses? It isn't, I'm pretty sure. I don't know a great deal about it, but I saw one at VCF East and the exhibitor made pains to point out it is NOT one of the Sony HitBit-type machines (which are their nominal MSX compatiboxen). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- ? Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If you want divine justice, die. -- Nick Seldon ---------------------------- From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Jan 4 11:32:12 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 11:32:12 -0600 Subject: Z80 instruction fetch mechanism In-Reply-To: <495EEA34.4030606@pacbell.net> References: <495E7961.7030005@gmail.com> <495EE500.4030201@pacbell.net> <495EEA34.4030606@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <4960F29C.1030102@gmail.com> Jim Battle wrote: > This shows the use of two hidden registers, W and Z -- they are > analogous to another 16b BC pair. These hold the immediate 16b address > fetch, since the CPU needs to hold a 16b value for the duration of that > instruction that isn't retained afterward. Yes, I think I've seen somewhere that W and Z were used to assemble a temporary 16b address - however, that's a different kettle of fish; this chap was wondering how multi-byte instructions (i.e. where the opcode itself is longer than a single byte) get decoded. It does seem logical (to both of us, anyway) that it's just a set of flip-flops set by the prefix bytes to indicate different states - but so far it seems that this isn't actually documented anywhere (presumably because it doesn't *need* to be as far as anyone using the CPU is concerned) I have the Zaks 'fat book' (and the Zilog A4-sized reference publication) but unfortunately they're stuck in storage :-( cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 4 12:33:42 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 10:33:42 -0800 Subject: Z80 instruction fetch mechanism In-Reply-To: <4960F29C.1030102@gmail.com> References: <495E7961.7030005@gmail.com>, <495EEA34.4030606@pacbell.net>, <4960F29C.1030102@gmail.com> Message-ID: <49609086.18865.AACE5B4@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Jan 2009 at 11:32, Jules Richardson wrote: > It does seem logical (to both of us, anyway) that it's just a set of > flip-flops set by the prefix bytes to indicate different states - but so far > it seems that this isn't actually documented anywhere (presumably because it > doesn't *need* to be as far as anyone using the CPU is concerned) >From an operational standpoint concerning DD and FD, it makes sense. All of those "undocumented" instructions involving half of IX or IY are just normal DE and HL-involved instructions with a prefix byte. But the CB and ED opcodes are radically different from their single- byte cousins and I suspect that a different mechanism is at play here. Perhaps they switch to a different section of the decoding PLA. Cheers, Chuck From shoppa at trailing-edge.com Sun Jan 4 12:40:02 2009 From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 13:40:02 -0500 Subject: Orthogonality and contrivedness In-Reply-To: <200901041801.n04I0jhb082980@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901041801.n04I0jhb082980@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20090104184002.48F99C401A6@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Chuck writes: > I work with both PICs and AVRs (my current project uses an > ATMega128), but both instruction sets seem to me to be more than a > bit contrived. The AVR less so than the PIC, but still on the "odd" > side of the ledger. Try programming an 1802 for a while. You'll know you're really into it when it seems "contrived" that all those other processors can only use a single of their registers as a program counter :-). Twisting my mind to switch to 1802 mode and back is a interesting experience. The smaller PIC's make perfect sense once you realize they're Harvard architecture. Bigger PIC's, I never really grokked. > I'm not a 430 evangelist (and suspect that it will never enjoy the > popularity of the PIC or AVR, which is a shame). I'll work with any > instruction set, but I know what I'd prefer to use. > > It's curious that the MSP430's instruction set is close to the GI > CP1600, where the PIC is descended from the very different 1650. To me it's perfectly obvious that the MSP430 is PDP-11 like, and in some ways even more orthogonal than the -11. The CP1600 was substantially less orthogonal, more Nova-like with some of the registers obviously intended for index use. Tim. From steve at radiorobots.com Sun Jan 4 12:59:19 2009 From: steve at radiorobots.com (steve stutman) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 13:59:19 -0500 Subject: Orthogonality and contrivedness In-Reply-To: <20090104184002.48F99C401A6@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <200901041801.n04I0jhb082980@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20090104184002.48F99C401A6@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <49610707.3000709@radiorobots.com> One must have affection for any proc with instruction "GHI". An 1802 prob also still somewhat in control of the Earthmade-machine most distant from Earth. Steve Tim Shoppa wrote: > Chuck writes: > >> I work with both PICs and AVRs (my current project uses an >> ATMega128), but both instruction sets seem to me to be more than a >> bit contrived. The AVR less so than the PIC, but still on the "odd" >> side of the ledger. >> > > Try programming an 1802 for a while. You'll know you're really into > it when it seems "contrived" that all those other processors can > only use a single of their registers as a program counter :-). > Twisting my mind to switch to 1802 mode and back is a interesting > experience. > > The smaller PIC's make perfect sense once you realize they're > Harvard architecture. Bigger PIC's, I never really grokked. > > >> I'm not a 430 evangelist (and suspect that it will never enjoy the >> popularity of the PIC or AVR, which is a shame). I'll work with any >> instruction set, but I know what I'd prefer to use. >> >> It's curious that the MSP430's instruction set is close to the GI >> CP1600, where the PIC is descended from the very different 1650. >> > > To me it's perfectly obvious that the MSP430 is PDP-11 like, and > in some ways even more orthogonal than the -11. The CP1600 was > substantially less orthogonal, more Nova-like with some > of the registers obviously intended for index use. > > Tim. > From pcw at mesanet.com Sun Jan 4 12:53:35 2009 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 10:53:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Orthogonality and contrivedness In-Reply-To: <20090104184002.48F99C401A6@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <200901041801.n04I0jhb082980@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20090104184002.48F99C401A6@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: SNIP_________________________ > To me it's perfectly obvious that the MSP430 is PDP-11 like, and > in some ways even more orthogonal than the -11. The CP1600 was > substantially less orthogonal, more Nova-like with some > of the registers obviously intended for index use. Actually its much more TMS9900 like than PDP11 like (addressing modes, machine code layout, number of registers) not surprisingly since its from TI > > Tim. > Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics (\__/) (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Jan 4 13:08:26 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 13:08:26 -0600 Subject: ACS Altos 3068 In-Reply-To: <495ED2CE.4010201@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <495ED2CE.4010201@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <4961092A.4060905@gmail.com> Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > Hi there, > > Am I the only person on the planet that still has one of these machines > ? Possibly :-) The name sounds familiar, but I'm not sure why - possibly the museum was offered one (but likely turned it down as there sadly isn't infinite space for every UNIX system ever made) > The perticular example I have has 4M of ram and a 70M disk, and is > running SysV unix. Acording to the documentation and the back of the > machine, it has a SCSI-1 interface however I have never been able to get > this working. It's definitely single-ended SCSI and not differential? My NCR had an external SCSI interface, but it was differential (even though the internal disks were single-ended on a separate portion of the controller). > I think I heard somewhere that the SCSI required a later version of the > OS What devices were you trying to use? e.g. I wonder if they added OS support for SCSI streaming tape but not disk, or something like that... cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 4 13:19:38 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 11:19:38 -0800 Subject: Orthogonality and contrivedness In-Reply-To: References: <200901041801.n04I0jhb082980@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <20090104184002.48F99C401A6@mini-me.trailing-edge.com>, Message-ID: <49609B4A.11470.AD6E673@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Jan 2009 at 10:53, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > Actually its much more TMS9900 like than PDP11 like (addressing modes, > machine code layout, number of registers) > not surprisingly since its from TI You know, you're right-- what the MPS430 lacks is a workspace pointer. At least interrupts push the status register on the stack, unlike some other uCs. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 4 13:57:30 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 11:57:30 -0800 Subject: Orthogonality and contrivedness In-Reply-To: <20090104184002.48F99C401A6@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <200901041801.n04I0jhb082980@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <20090104184002.48F99C401A6@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4960A42A.23974.AF9AEFD@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Jan 2009 at 13:40, Tim Shoppa wrote: Try programming an 1802 for a while. You'll know you're really into > it when it seems "contrived" that all those other processors can > only use a single of their registers as a program counter :-). > Twisting my mind to switch to 1802 mode and back is a interesting > experience. Well, at least the PC on the 430 is a regular register, operable by any applicable instruction of the set. Doing a decimal add to the PC must certainly yield interesting results! I'd always considered the 1802 to be in a unique position in the 70's, in that it was a (comparatively) low-power CMOS design. No doubt this was aided somewhat by its simple architecture. Was 1802 RCA's one and only veture in the microprocessor world? > The smaller PIC's make perfect sense once you realize they're > Harvard architecture. Bigger PIC's, I never really grokked. The Harvard architecture really falls down in uCs because of lack of space to store read-only constants. Small PICs have to resort to all sorts of oddball tricks to accommodate this for things such as lookup tables. (Use a "return from subroutine with immediate value" instruction). Upper PICs include instructions to access program memory and AFAIK, all AVRs have them. Which doesn't make them strictly Harvard architecture anymore. Had the ROM area included a space in data memory for constant storage, it might have done the trick. Yes, there's EEPROM, but it has a different purpose and is not easy to use. The 430 drops the charade and adopts a Von Neumann architecture, relying on the read-only nature of ROM to enforce the separation between code and data. > To me it's perfectly obvious that the MSP430 is PDP-11 like, and > in some ways even more orthogonal than the -11. The CP1600 was > substantially less orthogonal, more Nova-like with some > of the registers obviously intended for index use. How many Nova programmers would have killed for 16 registers? To me, what distinguishes the CP1600 was its inefficient use of instruction memory (Yes, I know about the 10-bit ROM, but still...) Cheers, Chuck From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sun Jan 4 14:33:26 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 12:33:26 -0800 Subject: Mac 400k floppy drive alignment? Message-ID: <49611D16.9040802@mail.msu.edu> Got myself an ancient external 400k mac floppy drive on the cheap that I'd like to use on my 128k mac -- after cleaning out the old dried lubricant and getting the drive mechanism running again, the drive works but will only read/write disks that it has formatted, which leads me to believe that the drive is out of alignment. How is alignment corrected on these drives? Thanks! Josh From rescue at hawkmountain.net Sun Jan 4 17:58:27 2009 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 18:58:27 -0500 Subject: chip identification Message-ID: <49614D23.2000800@hawkmountain.net> Trying to ID some chips I pulled from various pieces of equipment. I have a cpu? I pulled out of a modem ... Signetics SC80C31BCPN40. This would appear to be an Intel 8031 based cpu. But does it have an internal ROM/etc that would preclude its reuse ? I have 3 chips now in the trash pile... I believe they are OTP EPROMs (and since used, are no good). MX 27C1000PC-70, ATMEL AT27LV256A, and AtMel AT27C010-70JC. Lastly I have what I think is EEPROM. SST PH29EE010-150-4CF. I believe this to be a 1Mbit EEPROM. Searching google for chip part numbers is paramount to useless due to all the chip vendors advertising.... there has to be a better way.... So, beyond looking for better ways to search for chip data/datasheets, can anyone confirm the identification of the above chips ? Is an 8031 cpu 'fun' to play with ? :-) -- Curt From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 4 18:57:20 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 16:57:20 -0800 Subject: chip identification In-Reply-To: <49614D23.2000800@hawkmountain.net> References: <49614D23.2000800@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <4960EA70.4564.C0C3E87@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Jan 2009 at 18:58, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > I have a cpu? I pulled out of a modem ... Signetics > SC80C31BCPN40. This would appear to be an Intel 8031 based > cpu. But does it have an internal ROM/etc that would preclude > its reuse ? 8031/80C31 is the ROM-less version of the 8051. So you're in luck. > I have 3 chips now in the trash pile... I believe they are OTP EPROMs > (and since used, are no good). MX 27C1000PC-70, ATMEL > AT27LV256A, and AtMel AT27C010-70JC. I believe that you're right, if they have no windows on them. > Lastly I have what I think is EEPROM. SST PH29EE010-150-4CF. > I believe this to be a 1Mbit EEPROM. Yes, search for "29EE010" on DatasheetCatalog.com and you'll turn up the SST part. As far as excluding the chip-peddling sites, I spike my google search with terms such as -buy -RFQ -qty -quantity -stock... Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 4 20:49:05 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 18:49:05 -0800 Subject: Anyone know what these boards are? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <496104A1.2741.C728091@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Jan 2009 at 1:07, Robert Borsuk wrote: > Anyone know about these boards? > ebay # 170291194981 68K CPU perhaps? But 1/50th of an inch of gold? (20 thousandths?)... Cheers, Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jan 4 22:20:52 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 20:20:52 -0800 Subject: Mac 400k floppy drive alignment? In-Reply-To: <49611D16.9040802@mail.msu.edu> References: <49611D16.9040802@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: > From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu > > Got myself an ancient external 400k mac floppy drive on the cheap that > I'd like to use on my 128k mac -- after cleaning out the old dried > lubricant and getting the drive mechanism running again, the drive works > but will only read/write disks that it has formatted, which leads me to > believe that the drive is out of alignment. How is alignment corrected > on these drives? > > Thanks! > Josh Hi Like any other drive, you need an alignment disk for a 400k drive. That would be a tough one. You can always just experiment some. Before moving the stepper, make sure the track zero is in the right place. After a recal, measure the distance the head is from the spindle. It should be close to the same for both drives. If the track zero is right, try the stepper next. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ It?s the same Hotmail?. If by ?same? you mean up to 70% faster. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_broad1_122008 From w.f.j.mueller at gsi.de Sun Jan 4 11:49:02 2009 From: w.f.j.mueller at gsi.de (Walter F. Mueller) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 18:49:02 +0100 Subject: 2.11BSD Patch 446+447; fixes for ulrem,umount,tar,tcsh,ps,vmstat,apropos,pstat,rk Message-ID: <4960F68E.1010507@gsi.de> A note to all 2.11bsd users: Over the past 2 years several bug fixes for 2.11BSD accumulated, and over xmas break I finally found the time to communicate them to Steven Schultz. Steven was so kind to package them into two new patch files 446 issued December 27, 2008 447 issued December 31, 2008 Together, the patches address the following points - ulrem.s: the unsigned long modulo operator (%) was broken in libkern - umount: returned inverted exit codes (1 for success, 0 for failure) - tar: core dumped when a whole /usr tree was archived - tcsh: the time buildin function printed some erroneous or zero statistics - ps: core dumped when '-t' option was used with no further argument - apropos: core dumped when 2 or more arguments were given - vmstat: wrong normalization for some fields - several issues around the rk disk driver - no rk root attach function - no rk BOOTDEV support - incorrect UCB_METER code (vmstat/iostat never showed any rk activity) - autoconfig left the RK11 controller in an error state - pstat: added additional options to access more kernel data structures - new -c option, dumping the coremap - new -m option, dumping the ub_map (UNIBUS map) - new -b option, dumping the buffer pool table - change -s output, gives now full table dump - adapt the info's displayed by -T - some documentation corrections (vmstat, pstat, tcsh) Note: In case you wonder, as I did, why 211BSD survived 20 years with a broken unsigned long % operator: - only the non-FPP libkern implementation was affected - the kernel simply doesn't have any unsigned long modulo's :) - apparently only standalone mkfs after patch 434 was compromised For the full story of all the above consult the header of the patch files. The patch files are available from moe.2bsd.com and ftp.wx.gd-ais.com. Note, that Steven changed the packaging some time ago, the patches are now packed in bzip'ed tarballs in groups of ten patches. So you'll have to look into ftp://moe.2bsd.com/pub/2.11BSD/440-447.tar.bz2 ftp://ftp.wx.gd-ais.com/pub/2.11BSD/440-447.tar.bz2 With best regards, Walter Mueller From w.f.j.mueller at gsi.de Sun Jan 4 14:06:28 2009 From: w.f.j.mueller at gsi.de (Walter F. Mueller) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 21:06:28 +0100 Subject: jove editor under 2.11BSD and cursor keys In-Reply-To: <4960F68E.1010507@gsi.de> References: <4960F68E.1010507@gsi.de> Message-ID: <496116C4.8050101@gsi.de> Hello, I'm using the jove editor under 2.11BSD, the jove release is from 1988. It works just fine, except for the cursor keys. Even though the ansi-codes function is properly bound, 'ESC x describe-bindings' shows: ESC [ ansi-codes I get whenever I hit one of the cursor keys the message [ESC O unbound] TERM is set to vt100, termcap is ok, and the xterm used is started with -ti vt100. vi for example works and accepts the cursor keys, a dump of the chars emitted by xterm show that the proper \[[A ect sequence indeed arrives. Any help or hint on how to get this to work is very much appreciated. With best regards, Walter Mueller From bqt at softjar.se Sun Jan 4 17:59:42 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 00:59:42 +0100 Subject: [pups] jove editor under 2.11BSD and cursor keys In-Reply-To: <496116C4.8050101@gsi.de> References: <4960F68E.1010507@gsi.de> <496116C4.8050101@gsi.de> Message-ID: <49614D6E.2090408@softjar.se> Walter F. Mueller wrote: > Hello, > > I'm using the jove editor under 2.11BSD, the jove release is > from 1988. It works just fine, except for the cursor keys. > Even though the ansi-codes function is properly bound, > 'ESC x describe-bindings' shows: > > ESC [ ansi-codes > > I get whenever I hit one of the cursor keys the message > > [ESC O unbound] > > TERM is set to vt100, termcap is ok, and the xterm used is > started with -ti vt100. vi for example works and accepts the > cursor keys, a dump of the chars emitted by xterm show that > the proper \[[A ect sequence indeed arrives. > > Any help or hint on how to get this to work is very much > appreciated. Please note the difference between "[" and "O"... :-) To give you a little more help: someone or something is changing your terminal to have application cursor keys. (And to point out what should be obvious now: your cursor keys can actually send two different kind of codes, depending on a setup parameter.) Johnny From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Jan 4 18:34:02 2009 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 19:34:02 -0500 Subject: Orthogonality and contrivedness Message-ID: <0KCZ001TD2WONTA1@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Orthogonality and contrivedness > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 11:57:30 -0800 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 4 Jan 2009 at 13:40, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > Try programming an 1802 for a while. You'll know you're really into >> it when it seems "contrived" that all those other processors can >> only use a single of their registers as a program counter :-). >> Twisting my mind to switch to 1802 mode and back is a interesting >> experience. > >Well, at least the PC on the 430 is a regular register, operable by >any applicable instruction of the set. Doing a decimal add to the PC >must certainly yield interesting results! > >I'd always considered the 1802 to be in a unique position in the >70's, in that it was a (comparatively) low-power CMOS design. No >doubt this was aided somewhat by its simple architecture. Was 1802 >RCA's one and only veture in the microprocessor world? In the 70s CMOS was mostly RCAs game and calling card. They never got the density very high till mid 70s. There was 6100 (aka PDP-8 in cmos) and the 1800/1801 then the 1802 and 1804 and 1805 The 1800/01 was the base of the family and took two chips to complee the processor. The 1802 was the first CPU from RCA that took only one chip and the 04/05 added minor improvements and brought rom on the chip. If memeory serves RCA also had a mini that has a similar archetecture. The odditiy of the cosmac is once you program with it enough it's PHI SEX and GLO. Seriously it's fairly efficient once you get used to it. If it were made with current processes, the number of clocks per cycle dropped it would likely still have staying power. >> The smaller PIC's make perfect sense once you realize they're >> Harvard architecture. Bigger PIC's, I never really grokked. > >The Harvard architecture really falls down in uCs because of lack of >space to store read-only constants. Small PICs have to resort to all >sorts of oddball tricks to accommodate this for things such as lookup >tables. (Use a "return from subroutine with immediate value" >instruction). Upper PICs include instructions to access program >memory and AFAIK, all AVRs have them. Which doesn't make them >strictly Harvard architecture anymore. Had the ROM area included a >space in data memory for constant storage, it might have done the >trick. Yes, there's EEPROM, but it has a different purpose and is >not easy to use. Most all of the Harvard machines have a way to load a constant or acccess a table in rom. Started with the TMS1000. >The 430 drops the charade and adopts a Von Neumann architecture, >relying on the read-only nature of ROM to enforce the separation >between code and data. > >> To me it's perfectly obvious that the MSP430 is PDP-11 like, and >> in some ways even more orthogonal than the -11. The CP1600 was >> substantially less orthogonal, more Nova-like with some >> of the registers obviously intended for index use. Never tried that one. > >How many Nova programmers would have killed for 16 registers? To me, >what distinguishes the CP1600 was its inefficient use of instruction >memory (Yes, I know about the 10-bit ROM, but still...) > It was aimed at a rom based systems and back then rom was A)bulky, B)expensive silicon. ALlison >Cheers, >Chuck From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Jan 4 18:35:58 2009 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 00:35:58 +0000 Subject: chip identification In-Reply-To: <49614D23.2000800@hawkmountain.net> References: <49614D23.2000800@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <1231115758.6251.14.camel@elric> On Sun, 2009-01-04 at 18:58 -0500, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > Trying to ID some chips I pulled from various pieces of equipment. > > I have a cpu? I pulled out of a modem ... Signetics > SC80C31BCPN40. This would appear to be an Intel 8031 based > cpu. But does it have an internal ROM/etc that would preclude > its reuse ? I'm pretty sure the 80C31 is ROMless. Was there a ROM on the board too? > I have 3 chips now in the trash pile... I believe they are OTP EPROMs > (and since used, are no good). MX 27C1000PC-70, ATMEL > AT27LV256A, and AtMel AT27C010-70JC. They are AFAIK OTP parts, yes. > Lastly I have what I think is EEPROM. SST PH29EE010-150-4CF. > I believe this to be a 1Mbit EEPROM. Sounds about right > Searching google for chip part numbers is paramount to useless > due to all the chip vendors advertising.... there has to be a better > way.... Awful, isn't it? > So, beyond looking for better ways to search for chip data/datasheets, > can anyone confirm the identification of the above chips ? > > Is an 8031 cpu 'fun' to play with ? :-) Alesis certainly seemed to think so. Gordon From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jan 5 02:02:47 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 03:02:47 -0500 Subject: chip identification In-Reply-To: <49614D23.2000800@hawkmountain.net> References: <49614D23.2000800@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <1D3925C3-DD2D-421A-B72E-125F025E757F@neurotica.com> On Jan 4, 2009, at 6:58 PM, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > Trying to ID some chips I pulled from various pieces of equipment. > > I have a cpu? I pulled out of a modem ... Signetics > SC80C31BCPN40. This would appear to be an Intel 8031 based > cpu. But does it have an internal ROM/etc that would preclude > its reuse ? Nope...the 8031 is the ROM-less version of the 8051. > I have 3 chips now in the trash pile... I believe they are OTP EPROMs > (and since used, are no good). MX 27C1000PC-70, ATMEL > AT27LV256A, and AtMel AT27C010-70JC. They're definitely EPROMs, and they're OTP unless they have a window. > Lastly I have what I think is EEPROM. SST PH29EE010-150-4CF. > I believe this to be a 1Mbit EEPROM. > Searching google for chip part numbers is paramount to useless > due to all the chip vendors advertising.... there has to be a better > way.... Nope, there's no better way...it's just tedious and time- consuming. The 29EE010 is indeed a 1Mb EEPROM. I have the datasheet here: http://www.neurotica.com/misc/SST29EE010.pdf > Is an 8031 cpu 'fun' to play with ? :-) Some people say no, some people say yes. Personally I love the 8051 architecture. I've done tons of stuff with 8051 implementations, both at home and at work...been working with them for close to twenty years now. It's one of the best-supported microcontroller architectures out there. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wpileggi at juno.com Mon Jan 5 02:31:29 2009 From: wpileggi at juno.com (Bill Pileggi) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 08:31:29 GMT Subject: Offer- VGA and SoundBlaster Card collections/last chance Message-ID: <20090105.033129.25302.0@webmail24.vgs.untd.com> Couple of months ago, I offered up my classic VGA (ISA, PCI, AGP) card collection and Soundblaster (ISA, PCI) card collection(s). I had several take me up on my offer. I still have a lot left, if you have any interest, please email. Most went for shipping costs + small fee. Thanks. Bill KA3AIS ____________________________________________________________ Save $15 on Flowers and Gifts from FTD! Shop now at http://offers.juno.com/TGL1131/?u=http://www.ftd.com/17007 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Jan 5 08:52:44 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 06:52:44 -0800 Subject: chip identification In-Reply-To: <1231115758.6251.14.camel@elric> References: <49614D23.2000800@hawkmountain.net> <1231115758.6251.14.camel@elric> Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > From: gordon at gjcp.net > > On Sun, 2009-01-04 at 18:58 -0500, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: >> Trying to ID some chips I pulled from various pieces of equipment. >> >> I have a cpu? I pulled out of a modem ... Signetics >> SC80C31BCPN40. This would appear to be an Intel 8031 based >> cpu. But does it have an internal ROM/etc that would preclude >> its reuse ? > > I'm pretty sure the 80C31 is ROMless. Was there a ROM on the board too? > ---snip--- Hi The 8031 was the ROM-less version. I always suspected that these were actually 8051s with defective ROMs. One can use a 8051 in a 8031 socket. It just ignores the ROM in the 8051. So, both can be used with an external ROM as though it were a 8031. It is just one of the pins is tied high or low. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ It?s the same Hotmail?. If by ?same? you mean up to 70% faster. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_broad1_122008 From srp at saslab.net Mon Jan 5 08:31:23 2009 From: srp at saslab.net (SAS Ltd) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 14:31:23 -0000 Subject: PDP8 spares required Message-ID: <005b01c96f42$4c5519a0$e4ff4ce0$@net> I am trying to keep a PDP8 computer alive which controls a measurement system. I have a need for spares for this computer, in particular 16k memory boards and all other boards. In fact the only parts I am now sure about are the power supply and backplane. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Marek Pawlik From srp at saslab.net Mon Jan 5 08:31:23 2009 From: srp at saslab.net (SAS Ltd) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 14:31:23 -0000 Subject: HP9836 hardware. software and manuals availability Message-ID: <005a01c96f42$4a65a5b0$df30f110$@net> I have a large collection of hardware, software and manuals relating to the HP9836 computer. The following items are available to anyone who would like them and who could collect them from Buckinghamshire. I will only give an outline of the items available although \I can provide more detailed listings on request: 1. 5 Hp9836 computers of which 2 are fully functioning. The other 3 have various failed subsystems but they could easily be cannibalised into 2 working systems. 2. Approximately 8 5.25 disk drives, all failed and in need of repair. 3. Full manual sets for Basic and Pascal in t 2 versions of each. 4. A collection of memory cards and math coprocessor cards. 5. Both 3.5 and 5.25 original operating system disks. 6. A collection of 7470 and 7475 plotters most of which are working. 7. A collection of various Thinkjet printers and other HP printers, 8. Various HPIB cables 9. IEM Fortran77 compiler and manuals. Several 9122 3.25 disk drives I have been using these machines for 25 years and have recently changed to Windows based systems. I do not have the heart just to throw these items away so please let me know if you need further details or have any interest in these items. Marek Pawlik From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jan 5 09:45:26 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 07:45:26 -0800 Subject: PDP8 spares required In-Reply-To: <005b01c96f42$4c5519a0$e4ff4ce0$@net> References: <005b01c96f42$4c5519a0$e4ff4ce0$@net> Message-ID: At 2:31 PM +0000 1/5/09, SAS Ltd wrote: >I am trying to keep a PDP8 computer alive which controls a measurement >system. I have a need for spares for this computer, in particular 16k memory >boards and all other boards. In fact the only parts I am now sure about are >the power supply and backplane. It would be necessary to know *which* model of PDP-8 you're talking about. It should be fairly "easy" to find spares for a PDP-8/e/f/m or a PDP-8a, but for the other models it will be tricky. One worthwhile option is to look into someone repairing any bad boards you might have. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Jan 5 09:49:57 2009 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 16:49:57 +0100 Subject: PDP8 spares required In-Reply-To: <005b01c96f42$4c5519a0$e4ff4ce0$@net> References: <005b01c96f42$4c5519a0$e4ff4ce0$@net> Message-ID: <20090105154957.GA29914@Update.UU.SE> On Mon, Jan 05, 2009 at 02:31:23PM -0000, SAS Ltd wrote: > I am trying to keep a PDP8 computer alive which controls a measurement > system. I have a need for spares for this computer, in particular 16k memory > boards and all other boards. In fact the only parts I am now sure about are > the power supply and backplane. I'm afraid I wont be of much help, I'm just curious. Are you still running a PDP-8 in a real world application? That must be one of last ones out there. And if so, what prevents you from using an emulator? custom hardware? Also, what model PDP-8 is it? Kind Regards, Pontus. From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Jan 5 10:22:02 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 11:22:02 -0500 Subject: PDP8 spares required In-Reply-To: <20090105154957.GA29914@Update.UU.SE> References: <005b01c96f42$4c5519a0$e4ff4ce0$@net> <20090105154957.GA29914@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <200901051122.02131.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 05 January 2009, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > I'm afraid I wont be of much help, I'm just curious. Are you still > running a PDP-8 in a real world application? That must be one of last > ones out there. And if so, what prevents you from using an emulator? > custom hardware? > > Also, what model PDP-8 is it? Based on how the message reads (and the fact that it's out-of-order timewise compared to other messages on the list), I really doubt the person that posted this is a subscriber of this list.. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Mon Jan 5 10:22:45 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 11:22:45 -0500 Subject: RSTS/E question and media References: <20090101000526.2B0333800072F@portal.seefried.com> Message-ID: <18786.13269.718525.310017@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> >>>>> "Ken" == Ken Seefried writes: Ken> From: Andrew Back >> Right, so I'd need to plumb the 11/53 into say an Alpha via a >> serial connection. Sync... so I'd need to get a PCI sync card too, >> for the latter. Ugh. Ken> Is this something you could do with a low end Cisco (2500 class) Ken> and the apropos IOS image (Enterprise, with support for DECNet)? Ken> Sync serial is built in. Sync DECnet on that serial line? That would be an interesting approach. It sounds like it should work. It also would require the Cisco box to be able to talk to DECnet Phase III, unless the RSTS system is running 9.3 or later. If they implemented DECnet Phase IV correctly that should work. paul From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Mon Jan 5 10:26:38 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 11:26:38 -0500 Subject: RSTS/E question and media. References: <0KCR00LBCJ89Q9T6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <18786.13502.599261.295003@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> >>>>> "Allison" == Allison writes: Allison> DDCMP can run over sync or async lines it was commonly done Allison> async for slow lines and sync for fast lines the division Allison> was around 19.2kbaud with the sync cards favoring the faster Allison> than that rates. True, but async DDCMP wasn't as widely supported. In particular, until around V10.0, RSTS/E only supported the sync DDCMP cards where the protocol was implemented on the card -- DMC11 and its successors. Very late in the history of RSTS I wrote an async DDCMP driver for it, mainly because that was the only way to get DDCMP on a Pro... paul From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Mon Jan 5 10:34:46 2009 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 16:34:46 +0000 Subject: PDP8 spares required In-Reply-To: <005b01c96f42$4c5519a0$e4ff4ce0$@net> References: <005b01c96f42$4c5519a0$e4ff4ce0$@net> Message-ID: do you have the tools to do component level repairs manuals and tests here http://www.pdp8online.com/query_docs/query_all.html eg Logic analyser etc that HP looks tempting Dave Caroline From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Mon Jan 5 10:37:50 2009 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 16:37:50 +0000 Subject: PDP8 spares required In-Reply-To: <005b01c96f42$4c5519a0$e4ff4ce0$@net> References: <005b01c96f42$4c5519a0$e4ff4ce0$@net> Message-ID: forgot to mention Im east midlands and have a Logic analyser available Dave Caroline From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Mon Jan 5 10:40:10 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 11:40:10 -0500 Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! References: <200812312127.mBVLR8PQ014734@floodgap.com> <495D5CAE.4185.2061A3B4@cclist.sydex.com> <200901020828.DAA23487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <495F3DF6.4198.58260B3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <18786.14314.25428.45529@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> >>>>> "Chuck" == Chuck Guzis writes: Chuck> I did say "C can probably be implemented on any binary CPU, Chuck> given enough memory and ugliness". Probably even an 8x300. Chuck> I work with both PICs and AVRs (my current project uses an Chuck> ATMega128), ... Just in case you (or others) weren't aware of it... GCC supports the AVR, as of a few years ago. Surprising but neat. paul From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Jan 5 10:43:45 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 17:43:45 +0100 Subject: HP9836 hardware. software and manuals availability In-Reply-To: <005a01c96f42$4a65a5b0$df30f110$@net> References: <005a01c96f42$4a65a5b0$df30f110$@net> Message-ID: Hi, I'm very interested, but I'm living in the netherlands. I do collect HP and have 1 9836 until now and I'm searching for software and parts. Can you tell me were you are located, so I can see if I can arrange something about collecting some of your items. Best regards, Rik Bos The Netherlands. > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens SAS Ltd > Verzonden: maandag 5 januari 2009 15:31 > Aan: cctech at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: HP9836 hardware. software and manuals availability > > I have a large collection of hardware, software and manuals > relating to the > HP9836 computer. > The following items are available to anyone who would like > them and who could collect them from Buckinghamshire. I will > only give an outline of the items available although \I can > provide more detailed listings on request: > 1. 5 Hp9836 computers of which 2 are fully functioning. The > other 3 have various failed subsystems but they could easily > be cannibalised into 2 working systems. > 2. Approximately 8 5.25 disk drives, all failed and in need of repair. > 3. Full manual sets for Basic and Pascal in t 2 versions of each. > 4. A collection of memory cards and math coprocessor cards. > 5. Both 3.5 and 5.25 original operating system disks. > 6. A collection of 7470 and 7475 plotters most of which are working. > 7. A collection of various Thinkjet printers and other HP > printers, 8. Various HPIB cables 9. IEM Fortran77 compiler > and manuals. > Several 9122 3.25 disk drives > > I have been using these machines for 25 years and have > recently changed to Windows based systems. I do not have the > heart just to throw these items away so please let me know if > you need further details or have any interest in these items. > > Marek Pawlik > > From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Jan 5 10:48:28 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 17:48:28 +0100 Subject: HP9836 hardware. software and manuals availability In-Reply-To: References: <005a01c96f42$4a65a5b0$df30f110$@net> Message-ID: <2AD0C8F0FEFD481DAC5DBC9E948A35DD@xp1800> Sorry this was ment to be off-list, mea culpa -Rik > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Rik Bos > Verzonden: maandag 5 januari 2009 17:44 > Aan: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Onderwerp: RE: HP9836 hardware. software and manuals availability > > Hi, > > I'm very interested, but I'm living in the netherlands. > I do collect HP and have 1 9836 until now and I'm searching > for software and parts. > Can you tell me were you are located, so I can see if I can > arrange something about collecting some of your items. > > Best regards, > > Rik Bos > The Netherlands. > > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens SAS Ltd > > Verzonden: maandag 5 januari 2009 15:31 > > Aan: cctech at classiccmp.org > > Onderwerp: HP9836 hardware. software and manuals availability > > > > I have a large collection of hardware, software and manuals > relating > > to the > > HP9836 computer. > > The following items are available to anyone who would like them and > > who could collect them from Buckinghamshire. I will only give an > > outline of the items available although \I can provide more > detailed > > listings on request: > > 1. 5 Hp9836 computers of which 2 are fully functioning. The other 3 > > have various failed subsystems but they could easily be > cannibalised > > into 2 working systems. > > 2. Approximately 8 5.25 disk drives, all failed and in need > of repair. > > 3. Full manual sets for Basic and Pascal in t 2 versions of each. > > 4. A collection of memory cards and math coprocessor cards. > > 5. Both 3.5 and 5.25 original operating system disks. > > 6. A collection of 7470 and 7475 plotters most of which are working. > > 7. A collection of various Thinkjet printers and other HP > printers, 8. > > Various HPIB cables 9. IEM Fortran77 compiler and manuals. > > Several 9122 3.25 disk drives > > > > I have been using these machines for 25 years and have recently > > changed to Windows based systems. I do not have the heart just to > > throw these items away so please let me know if you need further > > details or have any interest in these items. > > > > Marek Pawlik > > > > > From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Mon Jan 5 11:05:58 2009 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 18:05:58 +0100 Subject: for the true collector... Message-ID: <49623DF6.8040604@bluewin.ch> Posted on DAFC, but also of interest here : 7 track tapedrive with a scope for each track : http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360121005247 From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Mon Jan 5 11:10:14 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 15:10:14 -0200 Subject: chip identification References: <49614D23.2000800@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <05ba01c96f58$9b97ecc0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> > I have a cpu? I pulled out of a modem ... Signetics > SC80C31BCPN40. This would appear to be an Intel 8031 based > cpu. But does it have an internal ROM/etc that would preclude > its reuse ? Yep...but even 8051 (which has an internal ROM) can be used as a romless 8031. There is a pin of internal memory selection you have to tie down, pin 31 if I'm not mistaken. > Searching google for chip part numbers is paramount to useless > due to all the chip vendors advertising.... there has to be a better > way.... www.datasheetarchive.com > Is an 8031 cpu 'fun' to play with ? :-) Any cpu is :) But it depends on what you find to be "fun" :oD From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jan 5 11:30:00 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 12:30:00 -0500 Subject: chip identification In-Reply-To: <05ba01c96f58$9b97ecc0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> References: <49614D23.2000800@hawkmountain.net> <05ba01c96f58$9b97ecc0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> Message-ID: On Jan 5, 2009, at 12:10 PM, Alexandre Souza wrote: >> I have a cpu? I pulled out of a modem ... Signetics >> SC80C31BCPN40. This would appear to be an Intel 8031 based >> cpu. But does it have an internal ROM/etc that would preclude >> its reuse ? > > Yep...but even 8051 (which has an internal ROM) can be used as a > romless 8031. There is a pin of internal memory selection you have > to tie down, pin 31 if I'm not mistaken. Yup, pin 31. Tie it low to enable external program memory. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Mon Jan 5 11:42:30 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 12:42:30 -0500 Subject: for the true collector... References: <49623DF6.8040604@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <18786.18054.617027.825327@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> >>>>> "Jos" == Jos Dreesen > writes: Jos> Posted on DAFC, but also of interest here : 7 track tapedrive Jos> with a scope for each track : Jos> http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360121005247 Presumably an "instrumentation tape" rather than a digital data tape drive. Neat, though. I wonder if it could handle digital tape. The 1 inch feature is nice for people who have early CDC 6000 series one-inch 14 track tapes... (if there are any such people!) paul From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jan 5 11:55:35 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 12:55:35 -0500 Subject: PDP8 spares required In-Reply-To: <20090105154957.GA29914@Update.UU.SE> References: <005b01c96f42$4c5519a0$e4ff4ce0$@net> <20090105154957.GA29914@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <07E0D383-7AB0-40B4-B0E5-DFCF70F5DB2E@neurotica.com> On Jan 5, 2009, at 10:49 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> I am trying to keep a PDP8 computer alive which controls a >> measurement >> system. I have a need for spares for this computer, in particular >> 16k memory >> boards and all other boards. In fact the only parts I am now sure >> about are >> the power supply and backplane. > > I'm afraid I wont be of much help, I'm just curious. Are you still > running a PDP-8 in a real world application? That must be one of last > ones out there. And if so, what prevents you from using an emulator? > custom hardware? Just jumping in...There are actually quite a few of them still running in production. Apparently, many commercial (i.e., not retail) paint mixing and color matching systems use them, in particular. For the past few days, I've been in an ongoing conversation with a fellow who was my childhood PDP mentor 25 years ago; he runs a service bureau and is working on a very flaky PDP-8/a that runs some sort of manufacturing system. I was shocked to learn of just how many of these systems are still out there doing their jobs. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jan 5 12:12:06 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 10:12:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP8 spares required In-Reply-To: <07E0D383-7AB0-40B4-B0E5-DFCF70F5DB2E@neurotica.com> References: <005b01c96f42$4c5519a0$e4ff4ce0$@net> <20090105154957.GA29914@Update.UU.SE> <07E0D383-7AB0-40B4-B0E5-DFCF70F5DB2E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Jan 2009, Dave McGuire wrote: > Just jumping in...There are actually quite a few of them still running in > production. Apparently, many commercial (i.e., not retail) paint mixing and > color matching systems use them, in particular. Mills also seem to be a big user of them, and foundries. > For the past few days, I've been in an ongoing conversation with a fellow > who was my childhood PDP mentor 25 years ago; he runs a service bureau and is > working on a very flaky PDP-8/a that runs some sort of manufacturing system. > > I was shocked to learn of just how many of these systems are still out there > doing their jobs. They work, and it always easy to replace them. I assume that some are in jobs like some of the PDP-11's out there, where it would cost serious $$$'s to replace any part of the system, as it would have to go through a very expensive qualification process. This is why there is still a commercial demand for things like RD53 hard drives. Zane From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 5 12:31:36 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 10:31:36 -0800 Subject: Orthogonality and contrivedness In-Reply-To: <0KCZ001TD2WONTA1@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0KCZ001TD2WONTA1@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <4961E188.15379.FD153CE@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Jan 2009 at 19:34, Allison wrote: > In the 70s CMOS was mostly RCAs game and calling card. They never > got the density very high till mid 70s. > > There was 6100 (aka PDP-8 in cmos) and the 1800/1801 then the 1802 > and 1804 and 1805 The 1800/01 was the base of the family and took > two chips to complee the processor. The 1802 was the first CPU from > RCA that took only one chip and the 04/05 added minor improvements and > brought rom on the chip. Wasn't the 6100 an Intersil-branded product? I recall an article where a CDP1802 was used in a battery-operated sea-bed telemetry application. The ability to take the clock to 0 MHz to save batteries was a big plus. The 6100 could also go to DC, but the 1802 had more on-chip RAM in form of 16 16-bit registers, so no external RAM was required--just the program ROM. > The odditiy of the cosmac is once you program with it enough it's > PHI SEX and GLO. Seriously it's fairly efficient once you get used > to it. If it were made with current processes, the number of clocks > per cycle dropped it would likely still have staying power. Obviously, a good macro assembler helps a lot... The CDP1806 (ROM+RAM+Timer version) was produced through the 1990's. > Most all of the Harvard machines have a way to load a constant or > acccess a table in rom. Started with the TMS1000. That's my point. Keeping data in program ROM and creating special instructions to access it does not constitute a strict Harvard architecture. Lower PICs probably qualify as Harvard. (on the CP1600) > It was aimed at a rom based systems and back then rom was A)bulky, > B)expensive silicon. It wasn't as if 10-bit-wide ROMs were commonplace, either. Regardless, there are a large number of 2 and 3 word instructions in the CP1600 instruction set that doubtless made for a big loss of performance and inefficient use of valuable memory. At the time I was evaluating one in the 70's, I wondered if using an (optional) double-byte fetch from 8-bit memory would have made for a signifcant loss in performance. Wasting 38 percent of your instruction word struck me as a bad idea. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 5 12:35:48 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 10:35:48 -0800 Subject: PDP8 spares required In-Reply-To: <07E0D383-7AB0-40B4-B0E5-DFCF70F5DB2E@neurotica.com> References: <005b01c96f42$4c5519a0$e4ff4ce0$@net>, <20090105154957.GA29914@Update.UU.SE>, <07E0D383-7AB0-40B4-B0E5-DFCF70F5DB2E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4961E284.8930.FD52C1F@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Jan 2009 at 12:55, Dave McGuire wrote: > For the past few days, I've been in an ongoing conversation with a > fellow who was my childhood PDP mentor 25 years ago; he runs a > service bureau and is working on a very flaky PDP-8/a that runs some > sort of manufacturing system. > > I was shocked to learn of just how many of these systems are still > out there doing their jobs. I suspect that the military also has a fair number of them. A couple of years ago, I duplicated some RX02 floppies that were used in a rig for maintaining C130 transports. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 5 13:04:14 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 19:04:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: chip identification In-Reply-To: <49614D23.2000800@hawkmountain.net> from "Curtis H. Wilbar Jr." at Jan 4, 9 06:58:27 pm Message-ID: > > > Trying to ID some chips I pulled from various pieces of equipment. > > I have a cpu? I pulled out of a modem ... Signetics > SC80C31BCPN40. This would appear to be an Intel 8031 based > cpu. But does it have an internal ROM/etc that would preclude > its reuse ? The 8031 is ROMless as far as I know. But traditional 8051s (40 pin DIL package of whatecer) can be used -- the internal ROM can be disabled by asserting EA (External address), in which case they behave like 8031s. I am told that some 8031/2s are actually 8051/2s that have been programmed for some application (in the case of the 8052, often tiny BASIC), and the ROM has failed the text. > Searching google for chip part numbers is paramount to useless > due to all the chip vendors advertising.... there has to be a better > way.... I have found digchip (http://www.digchip.com/) to be quite useful. You have to register, but I think it's free. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 5 13:29:39 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 19:29:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP9836 hardware. software and manuals availability In-Reply-To: <005a01c96f42$4a65a5b0$df30f110$@net> from "SAS Ltd" at Jan 5, 9 02:31:23 pm Message-ID: > > I have a large collection of hardware, software and manuals relating to the > HP9836 computer. For the uninitated on Classiccmp, this is a 68000-based computer (OK, there was a very late version with a 68010 in it...). It's a desktop machine with a built-in keyboard and 2 5.25" floppy drives. There are 8 'DIO' expansion slots, 4 of whcih can take boards with external connectors, the other 4 take boards without connectors, like memory, DMA controller, etc. There is a built-in HPIB interface, but nothing else (in particualr, there is not serial port). There are 2 main versions. The 9836A has a single-bit graphics board and a monochrome monitor. The 9836C has a 4 bit-per-pixel graphics oard, a colour lookup tale, adn a colour monitor. > The following items are available to anyone who would like them and who > could collect them from Buckinghamshire. I will only give an outline of the > items available although \I can provide more detailed listings on request: I would be interested in seeing said lists... Do you want one person to take the lot, or would you consider splitting it? > 1. 5 Hp9836 computers of which 2 are fully functioning. The other 3 have > various failed subsystems but they could easily be cannibalised into 2 > working systems. There is no way I can house any more of these machines, alas (darn it, I already have a 9836A and a 9836CU, along with a 9826 (similar machine but with one floppy drive and a small mono monitor buiit in where the second drive would be). However, I might be ale to help the new owner get all the machine going again. I've done considerale component-level repair on these machines, and I have a pile of 'unofficial schematics'. > 2. Approximately 8 5.25 disk drives, all failed and in need of repair. If these are from the 9836, they'll be 40 cylinder 2-head units. Either Tandon or MPI I think. > 3. Full manual sets for Basic and Pascal in t 2 versions of each. I owuld actually be interested in at least one set of each of those manuals. I think they'll be on the Australian museum site, but it is decidedly non-trivial for me to download and print them. > 4. A collection of memory cards and math coprocessor cards. Again, I would be interested in a coprocessor card, this being one of the DIO cards I don't yet have... > 5. Both 3.5 and 5.25 original operating system disks. The 3.5" disks are probably available from the Australian site, the 5.25" are not, and IMHO should be archived. Later 9826s and 9836s will start fro mexternal drives (so that you can cable up a 9122 and boot from 3.5" disks), but early ones (BOOTROM 2.0 and earlier) will only boot from the intenral 5.25" drive. Peopl with such machines have problems finding boot media. > 6. A collection of 7470 and 7475 plotters most of which are working. I assume all HPIB interfaced? > 7. A collection of various Thinkjet printers and other HP printers, I would be interested to know what 'other' printers you have... > 8. Various HPIB cables > 9. IEM Fortran77 compiler and manuals. > Several 9122 3.25 disk drives > > I have been using these machines for 25 years and have recently changed to > Windows based systems. I do not have the heart just to throw these items You know, I consider that to be a downgrade :-) > away so please let me know if you need further details or have any interest > in these items. > > Marek Pawlik -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 5 13:33:28 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 19:33:28 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PDP8 spares required In-Reply-To: <005b01c96f42$4c5519a0$e4ff4ce0$@net> from "SAS Ltd" at Jan 5, 9 02:31:23 pm Message-ID: > > I am trying to keep a PDP8 computer alive which controls a measurement The term 'PDP8' covers a wide range of machines, from ones built from discrete transsitors to microprocessors. Can you please give an indication as to which PDP11 this is. > system. I have a need for spares for this computer, in particular 16k memory > boards and all other boards. In fact the only parts I am now sure about are > the power supply and backplane. Would you consider component-level repair? These machines were generally very well documented (schematics, theory-of-operation manuals, etc), and the chips are mostly still very easy to find. And I am sure there are people who could assist in said repair. -tony From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Jan 5 14:01:44 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 21:01:44 +0100 Subject: HP9836 hardware. software and manuals availability In-Reply-To: References: <005a01c96f42$4a65a5b0$df30f110$@net> from "SAS Ltd" at Jan 5, 9 02:31:23 pm Message-ID: <3893ED0919B44EB0B7BEE137DB29AC39@xp1800> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Tony Duell > Verzonden: maandag 5 januari 2009 20:30 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > CC: srp at saslab.net > Onderwerp: Re: HP9836 hardware. software and manuals availability > > > > > I have a large collection of hardware, software and manuals > relating > > to the > > HP9836 computer. > > For the uninitated on Classiccmp, this is a 68000-based > computer (OK, there was a very late version with a 68010 in > it...). It's a desktop machine with a built-in keyboard Not always I mine has a separated keyboard (photo at www.hpmuseum.net) > and 2 5.25" floppy drives. There are 8 'DIO' expansion slots, 4 of > whcih can take boards with external connectors, the other 4 > take boards without connectors, like memory, DMA controller, > etc. There is a built-in HPIB interface, but nothing else (in > particualr, there is not serial port). > > There are 2 main versions. The 9836A has a single-bit > graphics board and a monochrome monitor. The 9836C has a 4 > bit-per-pixel graphics oard, a colour lookup tale, adn a > colour monitor. > > > The following items are available to anyone who would like them and > > who could collect them from Buckinghamshire. I will only give an > > outline of the items available although \I can provide more > detailed listings on request: > > I would be interested in seeing said lists... Do you want one > person to take the lot, or would you consider splitting it? > > > > 1. 5 Hp9836 computers of which 2 are fully functioning. The > other 3 have > > various failed subsystems but they could easily be > cannibalised into 2 > > working systems. > > There is no way I can house any more of these machines, alas > (darn it, I > already have a 9836A and a 9836CU, along with a 9826 (similar > machine but > with one floppy drive and a small mono monitor buiit in where > the second > drive would be). > > However, I might be ale to help the new owner get all the > machine going > again. I've done considerale component-level repair on these > machines, > and I have a pile of 'unofficial schematics'. > > > 2. Approximately 8 5.25 disk drives, all failed and in need > of repair. > > If these are from the 9836, they'll be 40 cylinder 2-head > units. Either > Tandon or MPI I think. > > > 3. Full manual sets for Basic and Pascal in t 2 versions of each. > > I owuld actually be interested in at least one set of each of those > manuals. I think they'll be on the Australian museum site, but it is > decidedly non-trivial for me to download and print them. > > > 4. A collection of memory cards and math coprocessor cards. > > Again, I would be interested in a coprocessor card, this > being one of the > DIO cards I don't yet have... > > > 5. Both 3.5 and 5.25 original operating system disks. > > The 3.5" disks are probably available from the Australian > site, the 5.25" > are not, and IMHO should be archived. Later 9826s and 9836s > will start > fro mexternal drives (so that you can cable up a 9122 and > boot from 3.5" > disks), but early ones (BOOTROM 2.0 and earlier) will only > boot from the > intenral 5.25" drive. Peopl with such machines have problems > finding boot > media. > > > 6. A collection of 7470 and 7475 plotters most of which are working. > > I assume all HPIB interfaced? > > > 7. A collection of various Thinkjet printers and other HP printers, > > I would be interested to know what 'other' printers you have... > > > 8. Various HPIB cables > > 9. IEM Fortran77 compiler and manuals. > > Several 9122 3.25 disk drives > > > > I have been using these machines for 25 years and have > recently changed to > > Windows based systems. I do not have the heart just to > throw these items > > You know, I consider that to be a downgrade :-) > > > away so please let me know if you need further details or > have any interest > > in these items. > > > > Marek Pawlik > > -tony -Rik From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 5 14:14:45 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 20:14:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP9836 hardware. software and manuals availability In-Reply-To: <3893ED0919B44EB0B7BEE137DB29AC39@xp1800> from "Rik Bos" at Jan 5, 9 09:01:44 pm Message-ID: > > For the uninitated on Classiccmp, this is a 68000-based > > computer (OK, there was a very late version with a 68010 in > > it...). It's a desktop machine with a built-in keyboard > > Not always I mine has a separated keyboard (photo at www.hpmuseum.net) And this is an 9836? Original HP? I have never heard of that version. What is the interface between the keyboard and the rest of the machine? The all-in-one 9836's keyboard is lust a matrix of switches (and a rotary encoder for the twiddleknob) with a 34 way ribbon cable linking it to the motherboard. The motherboard cotnains an 8041 microcontroller adn a bit of TTL to scna the keyboard. Of course other machines in the 9000/200 family used either a custom serial interface for the keyboard (HP9816) or HP-HIL (HP9817). Waht dows your separate-keyboard 9836 use? -tony From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Jan 5 14:55:47 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 21:55:47 +0100 Subject: HP9836 hardware. software and manuals availability In-Reply-To: References: <3893ED0919B44EB0B7BEE137DB29AC39@xp1800> from "Rik Bos" at Jan 5, 9 09:01:44 pm Message-ID: They just made the keyboard cable longer. The hardware isn't changed. I'll send you some pictures about the modefication (tomorrow). -Rik > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Tony Duell > Verzonden: maandag 5 januari 2009 21:15 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Re: HP9836 hardware. software and manuals availability > > > > For the uninitated on Classiccmp, this is a 68000-based computer > > > (OK, there was a very late version with a 68010 in it...). It's a > > > desktop machine with a built-in keyboard > > > > Not always I mine has a separated keyboard (photo at > www.hpmuseum.net) > > And this is an 9836? Original HP? I have never heard of that version. > > What is the interface between the keyboard and the rest of > the machine? > The all-in-one 9836's keyboard is lust a matrix of switches > (and a rotary encoder for the twiddleknob) with a 34 way > ribbon cable linking it to the motherboard. The motherboard > cotnains an 8041 microcontroller adn a bit of TTL to scna the > keyboard. > > Of course other machines in the 9000/200 family used either a > custom serial interface for the keyboard (HP9816) or HP-HIL (HP9817). > > Waht dows your separate-keyboard 9836 use? > > -tony > From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon Jan 5 15:08:39 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 21:08:39 +0000 Subject: HP9836 hardware. software and manuals availability In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1231189719.13249.0.camel@elric> On Mon, 2009-01-05 at 20:14 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > > The all-in-one 9836's keyboard is lust a matrix of switches (and a rotary Steady on, old chap... Gordon From pontus at update.uu.se Mon Jan 5 15:27:42 2009 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 22:27:42 +0100 Subject: PDP-8/e rack questions Message-ID: <49627B4E.3080606@update.uu.se> Hello. I recently acquired a PDP-8/e with a TU56 and a PC04(I think) with reader only. I've also gotten a DEC rack, but only one set of rails which I think are wrong and incomplete to boot. I've done some searching on bitsavers, but I've only found partial depictions of the actual rails. So, what I'm wondering is what does the rails for a PDP-8/e look like? These are the ones I got (same rails, different angles): http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/pdp8/rails_1.jpg http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/pdp8/rails_2.jpg What does the rails for a TU56 look like? I could not find any holes on the sides, are they simply screwed in place with the holes behind the flip-front? My TU56: http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/pdp8/tu56.jpg And what does the rails for a PC04 look like? I found this picture over at Mikes great corestore site: http://www.corestore.org/8i-2.jpg, which shows part of it. Also, the full height PDP family rack was called H960, but what was the shorter version called, depicted here: http://www.corestore.org/8m-1.jpg If you have any of the above mounting kits, I would be interested in buying or trading. I don't have much to trade with though, mostly SGI and Sun machines. /Pontus. From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Mon Jan 5 15:37:40 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 16:37:40 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/e rack questions References: <49627B4E.3080606@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <18786.32164.759003.207822@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> >>>>> "pontus" == pontus writes: pontus> What does the rails for a TU56 look like? I could not find pontus> any holes on the sides, are they simply screwed in place with pontus> the holes behind the flip-front? My TU56: pontus> http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/pdp8/tu56.jpg That's how I remember it (on the PDP11 -- but same rack and the tape drive chassis is the same). One drive TU56... interesting, didn't know those existed. I've only seen pictures of one drive TU55s, but clearly that's not what you have (the unit selector switch gives it away). paul From pontus at update.uu.se Mon Jan 5 15:46:00 2009 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 22:46:00 +0100 Subject: PDP-8/e rack questions In-Reply-To: <18786.32164.759003.207822@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> References: <49627B4E.3080606@update.uu.se> <18786.32164.759003.207822@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> Message-ID: <49627F98.9000607@update.uu.se> > One drive TU56... interesting, didn't know those existed. I've only > seen pictures of one drive TU55s, but clearly that's not what you have > (the unit selector switch gives it away). > It seems that the number of drives are optional, it is clearly room for one more drive, and there are holes ready for mounting the motors and another faceplate. Cheers, Pontus. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jan 5 15:50:17 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 16:50:17 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/e rack questions In-Reply-To: <49627B4E.3080606@update.uu.se> References: <49627B4E.3080606@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 4:27 PM, Pontus wrote: > Hello. > > I recently acquired a PDP-8/e with a TU56 and a PC04(I think) with > reader only. Nice. > What does the rails for a TU56 look like? I could not find any holes on > the sides, are they simply screwed in place with the holes behind the > flip-front? > My TU56: http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/pdp8/tu56.jpg My recollection is that you do just bolt the drive to the rack, no rails. > And what does the rails for a PC04 look like? I found this picture over > at Mikes great corestore site: http://www.corestore.org/8i-2.jpg, which > shows part of it. My PC04 has a set of rails that are half as deep as the rack, with a connecting bar for stiffness, and looks exactly like the one in the picture... the left and right rails are the grey parts with the large triangle, and the connecting bar is cadmium-plated steel, part of which you can barely see in the picture. The device rails are the same as other devices of the era (grey steel with sort of a _+-----+_ cross-section, but only as deep as the PC04 itself - i.e., they are *not* 3' long and do not hang out from the back. Probably the most common device of the era with that style of slide is the RX01/RX02 disk drive, but the RX rails _are_ as deep as the rack (same cross-section and color scheme, etc). I even have a few devices with 3rd party chrome-finish rails, but they rarely fit the factory holes in the CPU and device chassis, so are typically re-drilled. > Also, the full height PDP family rack was called H960, but what was the > shorter version called, depicted here: > http://www.corestore.org/8m-1.jpg I even have one of those (full of PDP-11 gear), but I don't know the DEC model number. > If you have any of the above mounting kits, I would be interested in > buying or trading... Sorry. I, too, have more devices than rails. For light-weight devices (PC04, not RK05), you might consider modern slide-out shelves. For heavier devices, you might consider fixed shelves. They will be easier to find than real DEC rails. Many modern rails are snap-on, and will be "interesting" to retrofit to 30-year-old devices, but not impossible, if all you really need is something that slides in and out. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jan 5 15:52:01 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 16:52:01 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/e rack questions In-Reply-To: <49627F98.9000607@update.uu.se> References: <49627B4E.3080606@update.uu.se> <18786.32164.759003.207822@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> <49627F98.9000607@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 4:46 PM, Pontus wrote: > >> One drive TU56... interesting, didn't know those existed. I've only >> seen pictures of one drive TU55s, but clearly that's not what you have >> (the unit selector switch gives it away). >> > It seems that the number of drives are optional, it is clearly room for > one more drive, and there are holes ready for mounting the motors and > another faceplate. I have seen reference in handbooks to single-drive TU56s, but I have only seen dual-drive units in the field up close and in person. -ethan From pontus at update.uu.se Mon Jan 5 16:06:09 2009 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 23:06:09 +0100 Subject: PDP-8/e rack questions In-Reply-To: References: <49627B4E.3080606@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <49628451.3020208@update.uu.se> > My PC04 has a set of rails that are half as deep as the rack, with a > connecting bar for stiffness, and looks exactly like the one in the > picture... the left and right rails are the grey parts with the large > triangle, and the connecting bar is cadmium-plated steel, part of > which you can barely see in the picture. > Ok, then I think I've seen them in person, but I was unsure. > Sorry. I, too, have more devices than rails. > Seems to be the norm :) > For light-weight devices (PC04, not RK05), you might consider modern > slide-out shelves. For heavier devices, you might consider fixed > shelves. They will be easier to find than real DEC rails. Many > modern rails are snap-on, and will be "interesting" to retrofit to > 30-year-old devices, but not impossible, if all you really need is > something that slides in and out. > The CPU box would be nice to have on a proper slide rail. But the peripherals, once restored, will probably not be moved so much. So I'll look for modern shelves. Thanks, Pontus. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jan 5 16:31:46 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 17:31:46 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/e rack questions In-Reply-To: References: <49627B4E.3080606@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Jan 5, 2009, at 4:50 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> What does the rails for a TU56 look like? I could not find any >> holes on >> the sides, are they simply screwed in place with the holes behind the >> flip-front? >> My TU56: http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/pdp8/tu56.jpg > > My recollection is that you do just bolt the drive to the rack, no > rails. Yes...Release the two top latches on the front panel, swing it down, and bolt the front chassis ears to the rack. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Mon Jan 5 16:32:45 2009 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 23:32:45 +0100 Subject: PDP-8/e rack questions In-Reply-To: References: <49627B4E.3080606@update.uu.se> Message-ID: > Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 16:50:17 -0500 > From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: PDP-8/e rack questions > > On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 4:27 PM, Pontus wrote: >> >> Also, the full height PDP family rack was called H960, but what >> was the shorter version called, depicted here: >> http://www.corestore.org/8m-1.jpg If I am not mistaken they are called H950. Come to think of it, in H960 fit *6* 10.5" high units, in an H950 fit *4* 10.5" high units :-) But as said, not 100% sure that they are called H950. Anyway, I would love to get one "H950" here in The Netherlands! - Henk. From frustum at pacbell.net Mon Jan 5 16:34:26 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 16:34:26 -0600 Subject: two old computer books for the cost of shipping Message-ID: <49628AF2.9020808@pacbell.net> "Logical Design of Digital Computers", Montgomery Phister, Jr., (c) 1958, 5th printing 1960. hardback w/cover, 400 pages, good shape. "Digital Computer Design", Braun, 1963. hardback, 600 pages, good shape. Shipped from Austin, TX Both have basics of boolean logic, branch out into more system level issues, have detail on memory types and issues, circuit level considerations. From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Mon Jan 5 16:37:54 2009 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 23:37:54 +0100 Subject: PDP-8/e rack questions In-Reply-To: References: <49627B4E.3080606@update.uu.se> Message-ID: > From: mcguire at neurotica.com > Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 17:31:46 -0500 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > CC: > Subject: Re: PDP-8/e rack questions > > On Jan 5, 2009, at 4:50 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> What does the rails for a TU56 look like? I could not find any >>> holes on the sides, are they simply screwed in place with the >>> holes behind the flip-front? >>> My TU56: http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/pdp8/tu56.jpg >> >> My recollection is that you do just bolt the drive to the rack, >> no rails. > > Yes...Release the two top latches on the front panel, swing it > down, and bolt the front chassis ears to the rack. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL That is how my TU56 is hung in the H960 rack. You need help to mount the TU56. I did it alone, and remember that is was heavy to do on my own, hanging the TU56 in the 5th 10.5" position, counting from the bottom :-) - Henk. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jan 5 17:04:17 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 16:04:17 -0700 Subject: PDP-8/e rack questions In-Reply-To: References: <49627B4E.3080606@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <496291F1.4080202@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > > Yes...Release the two top latches on the front panel, swing it down, > and bolt the front chassis ears to the rack. I am surprised that you don't just weld them into the racks :) > -Dave > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Jan 5 17:13:37 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 18:13:37 -0500 Subject: PDP8 spares required In-Reply-To: <4961E284.8930.FD52C1F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <005b01c96f42$4c5519a0$e4ff4ce0$@net> <20090105154957.GA29914@Update.UU.SE> <07E0D383-7AB0-40B4-B0E5-DFCF70F5DB2E@neurotica.com> <4961E284.8930.FD52C1F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > I suspect that the military also has a fair number of them. A couple > of years ago, I duplicated some RX02 floppies that were used in a rig > for maintaining C130 transports. Not 8s - they were never very popular with the military, even though Straight-8s were tagged with JETDS nomenclature of AN/GSQ-something. During the very early 1970s, I think Novas claimed most of what ground the PDP-8s would be good for. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Jan 5 17:16:58 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 18:16:58 -0500 Subject: PDP8 spares required In-Reply-To: References: <005b01c96f42$4c5519a0$e4ff4ce0$@net> <20090105154957.GA29914@Update.UU.SE> <07E0D383-7AB0-40B4-B0E5-DFCF70F5DB2E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > They work, and it always easy to replace them. Well, some of the people I know that support 12-bitters have a wildly different opinion. Most PDP-8 users would love to see the things go away for something that could be replaced with stuff purchased at Best Buy. But, the costs of conversions... -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jan 5 17:26:13 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 18:26:13 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/e rack questions In-Reply-To: <496291F1.4080202@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <49627B4E.3080606@update.uu.se> <496291F1.4080202@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <6246D5C4-B242-485D-B97D-189B5DDCE0EB@neurotica.com> On Jan 5, 2009, at 6:04 PM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >> Yes...Release the two top latches on the front panel, swing it >> down, and bolt the front chassis ears to the rack. > > I am surprised that you don't just weld them into the racks :) That'd make reconfiguration a bit problematic. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From marvin at west.net Mon Jan 5 17:53:21 2009 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 15:53:21 -0800 Subject: Stuff for Sale Message-ID: <49629D71.67757758@west.net> I'm starting to put stuff up for sale again on the Vintage Computer & Gaming Marketplace. New stuff I put up include the 13 1950-51 Radio-Electronics magazines that have the Simon Relay computer series, Omnitronix RS-232 for Vic-20/C64, and other such stuff. I plan on putting new stuff up daily. http://marketplace.vintage-computer.com/ If something doesn't sell in two weeks, I usually just stick it in the store. There are some interesting things up for sale by others as well. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 5 18:26:33 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 16:26:33 -0800 Subject: PDP8 spares required In-Reply-To: References: <005b01c96f42$4c5519a0$e4ff4ce0$@net>, <4961E284.8930.FD52C1F@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <496234B9.16817.11164B07@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Jan 2009 at 18:13, William Donzelli wrote: > Not 8s - they were never very popular with the military, even though > Straight-8s were tagged with JETDS nomenclature of AN/GSQ-something. > During the very early 1970s, I think Novas claimed most of what ground > the PDP-8s would be good for. These were definitely RX02 floppies--that "funny" DEC MFM is pretty distinctive. Maybe 11's? I've got the images somewhere here; I'll have to take a gander at them when I get a chance. Cheers, Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Jan 5 18:31:32 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 19:31:32 -0500 Subject: PDP8 spares required In-Reply-To: <496234B9.16817.11164B07@cclist.sydex.com> References: <005b01c96f42$4c5519a0$e4ff4ce0$@net> <4961E284.8930.FD52C1F@cclist.sydex.com> <496234B9.16817.11164B07@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > These were definitely RX02 floppies--that "funny" DEC MFM is pretty > distinctive. Maybe 11's? I've got the images somewhere here; I'll > have to take a gander at them when I get a chance. Certainly 11s and VAX machines were more common associated with military service. The VAX-11/785 RCS just received is ex-Sikorsky, and spent most of its life - the latter half, anyway - writing a few floppies a year, and nothing else. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jan 5 18:32:49 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 19:32:49 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/e rack questions In-Reply-To: References: <49627B4E.3080606@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <103D3B17-A5C9-4426-AB8A-6C4613F4B6FB@neurotica.com> On Jan 5, 2009, at 5:37 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: >>>> What does the rails for a TU56 look like? I could not find any >>>> holes on the sides, are they simply screwed in place with the >>>> holes behind the flip-front? >>>> My TU56: http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/pdp8/tu56.jpg >>> >>> My recollection is that you do just bolt the drive to the rack, >>> no rails. >> >> Yes...Release the two top latches on the front panel, swing it >> down, and bolt the front chassis ears to the rack. >> > That is how my TU56 is hung in the H960 rack. You need help to > mount the TU56. I did it alone, and remember that is was heavy > to do on my own, hanging the TU56 in the 5th 10.5" position, > counting from the bottom :-) I did mine alone as well. It is definitely a very heavy machine. I had back pains for days after doing that. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From db at db.net Mon Jan 5 18:46:22 2009 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 19:46:22 -0500 Subject: PDP8 spares required In-Reply-To: References: <005b01c96f42$4c5519a0$e4ff4ce0$@net> <4961E284.8930.FD52C1F@cclist.sydex.com> <496234B9.16817.11164B07@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20090106004622.GA29293@night.db.net> On Mon, Jan 05, 2009 at 07:31:32PM -0500, William Donzelli wrote: > > These were definitely RX02 floppies--that "funny" DEC MFM is pretty > > distinctive. Maybe 11's? I've got the images somewhere here; I'll > > have to take a gander at them when I get a chance. > > Certainly 11s and VAX machines were more common associated with There was (still is?) a tempest shielded pdp-11 for military use. - Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 5 19:10:42 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 17:10:42 -0800 Subject: PDP8 spares required In-Reply-To: References: <005b01c96f42$4c5519a0$e4ff4ce0$@net>, <496234B9.16817.11164B07@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <49623F12.2625.113EB45E@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Jan 2009 at 19:31, William Donzelli wrote: > > These were definitely RX02 floppies--that "funny" DEC MFM is pretty > > distinctive. Maybe 11's? I've got the images somewhere here; I'll > > have to take a gander at them when I get a chance. > > Certainly 11s and VAX machines were more common associated with > military service. The VAX-11/785 RCS just received is ex-Sikorsky, and > spent most of its life - the latter half, anyway - writing a few > floppies a year, and nothing else. ISTR (I'll have to go back and check my notes), that this was a maintenance setup for C130s--strictly ground-crew stuff. I'm pretty sure it was at Warner-Robbins. The floppies were pretty clearly labeled as program, not data. Cheers, Chuck From useddec at gmail.com Tue Jan 6 00:22:35 2009 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 00:22:35 -0600 Subject: PDP8 spares required In-Reply-To: <005b01c96f42$4c5519a0$e4ff4ce0$@net> References: <005b01c96f42$4c5519a0$e4ff4ce0$@net> Message-ID: <624966d60901052222y6e0b1ce5o9d82108f46a0e2dc@mail.gmail.com> 16K memory boards sounds like a PDP8-A. I might have a few of those somewhere. On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 8:31 AM, SAS Ltd wrote: > I am trying to keep a PDP8 computer alive which controls a measurement > system. I have a need for spares for this computer, in particular 16k > memory > boards and all other boards. In fact the only parts I am now sure about are > the power supply and backplane. > > > > Any suggestions would be appreciated. > > Marek Pawlik > > From grant at stockly.com Tue Jan 6 00:42:33 2009 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 21:42:33 -0900 Subject: Free Calculators Message-ID: <0KD100DC0EN4XY90@msgmmp-1.gci.net> I have a SR-51 TI calculator. I don't know if it works. Available for shipping costs. I also have a HP-35 with manual, purchase receipt, hard case, and power supply. It doesn't work with the power supply as is, but I don't know if the power supply works. Available for shipping costs. If they aren't worth anything, I can send them to the recycler. I don't know if there are any useful parts or not. I also have some little computer/calculator units. They are like the TRS-80 portable version, except smaller. I'm not sure what I'm going to do with them. From W.F.J.Mueller at gsi.de Mon Jan 5 14:06:51 2009 From: W.F.J.Mueller at gsi.de (Walter F.J. Mueller) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 21:06:51 +0100 Subject: [pups] jove editor under 2.11BSD and cursor keys In-Reply-To: <49614D6E.2090408@softjar.se> References: <4960F68E.1010507@gsi.de> <496116C4.8050101@gsi.de> <49614D6E.2090408@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4962685B.30005@gsi.de> Johnny Billquist wrote: > Walter F. Mueller wrote: >> .... >> I get whenever I hit one of the cursor keys the message >> >> [ESC O unbound] >... > Please note the difference between "[" and "O"... :-) > > To give you a little more help: someone or something is changing your > terminal to have application cursor keys. > (And to point out what should be obvious now: your cursor keys can > actually send two different kind of codes, depending on a setup parameter.) > > Johnny Thanks Johnny, that was exactly the problem. jove sets the terminal (or the emulator) into 'Application Cursor Key' and 'Application Keypad' mode. Looking in xterm at the VT Options popup (with CONTROL-MB2) shows this nicely. Binding the 'ansi-codes' function of Jove 4.9 (that's what comes with 2.11BSD) to \[O resolves the cursor issue. What I still don't understand is why jove comes with defaults which don't work. It puts the cursor and keypad keys into application mode, which makes perfect sense especially for the keypad, and than looks for \[[ rather \[O. Probably to make retrocomputing more fun :). Thanks and with best regards, Walter From hachti at hachti.de Tue Jan 6 02:28:15 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 09:28:15 +0100 Subject: PDP-8/e rack questions In-Reply-To: References: <49627B4E.3080606@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <4963161F.5050002@hachti.de> > Yes...Release the two top latches on the front panel, swing it down, > and bolt the front chassis ears to the rack. It's done this way in my LAB-8e. In my other 8/e, there's an additional kind of shelf, as I remember. Just for easier removal. Best wishes, Philipp :-) -- http://www.hachti.de From hachti at hachti.de Tue Jan 6 02:35:04 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 09:35:04 +0100 Subject: for the true collector... In-Reply-To: <18786.18054.617027.825327@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> References: <49623DF6.8040604@bluewin.ch> <18786.18054.617027.825327@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> Message-ID: <496317B8.2070900@hachti.de> > Presumably an "instrumentation tape" rather than a digital data tape > drive. Neat, though. I wonder if it could handle digital tape. Would be interesting if it it could be used to read out problematic 7-track tapes. Perhaps it can be used transparently. Would allow to do the data recovery in software on a modern computer... Ph -- http://www.hachti.de From pontus at update.uu.se Tue Jan 6 04:43:01 2009 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 11:43:01 +0100 Subject: PDP-8/e rack questions In-Reply-To: <4963161F.5050002@hachti.de> References: <49627B4E.3080606@update.uu.se> <4963161F.5050002@hachti.de> Message-ID: <496335B5.1090204@update.uu.se> Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > >> Yes...Release the two top latches on the front panel, swing it >> down, and bolt the front chassis ears to the rack. > > It's done this way in my LAB-8e. > In my other 8/e, there's an additional kind of shelf, as I remember. > Just for easier > removal. > Thanks Hachti. I've have some kind of shelf in my rack as well that I will probably end up using for the backbreaking TU56. I'm still curious about the actual CPU box rails. You have some great pictures on your site, maybe you could take one or two on the CPU rails for me? Kind Regards, Pontus. From doug at stillhq.com Tue Jan 6 05:04:20 2009 From: doug at stillhq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 22:04:20 +1100 Subject: Free Calculators In-Reply-To: <0KD100DC0EN4XY90@msgmmp-1.gci.net> References: <0KD100DC0EN4XY90@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Message-ID: <49633AB4.4020909@stillhq.com> Hi Grant, I love little TI calcs - Happy to pay for shipping to Australia if they are still on. regarding the others, have a look on e-pay. Hapy to take those as well, but can't spend too much lest I attract the attention of my wife!! Doug Grant Stockly wrote: > I have a SR-51 TI calculator. I don't know if it works. Available > for shipping costs. > > I also have a HP-35 with manual, purchase receipt, hard case, and > power supply. It doesn't work with the power supply as is, but I > don't know if the power supply works. Available for shipping costs. > > If they aren't worth anything, I can send them to the recycler. I > don't know if there are any useful parts or not. > > I also have some little computer/calculator units. They are like the > TRS-80 portable version, except smaller. I'm not sure what I'm going > to do with them. > > -- Doug Jackson, I-RAP, MAIPM, MIEEE Principal Information Security Consultant EWA-AUSTRALIA PO Box 6308 O'Connor ACT 2602 Level 1, 214 Northbourne Ave, Braddon ACT 2612 Tel: +61 (0)2 6230 6833 Fax: +61 (0)2 6230 5833 Mob: +61 (0)414 986 878 http://www.ewa-australia.com ============================================ IMPORTANT: This email remains the property of Electronic Warfare Associates - Australia. If you have received this email in error, you are requested to contact doug.jackson at ewa-australia.com or Ph +61 2 62306833 and delete the email. This message is not to be copied or distributed to other parties without the express permission of the author. Any personal information in this email must be handled in accordance with the Privacy Act 1988 (Cth). ============================================ From steve at cosam.org Tue Jan 6 05:07:36 2009 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 12:07:36 +0100 Subject: Lifting heavy rack-mount gear (was Re: PDP-8/e rack questions) Message-ID: <95838e090901060307ia16512dt69ff5866f7d14425@mail.gmail.com> 2009/1/6 Dave McGuire : > On Jan 5, 2009, at 5:37 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: >> That is how my TU56 is hung in the H960 rack. You need help to >> mount the TU56. I did it alone, and remember that is was heavy >> to do on my own, hanging the TU56 in the 5th 10.5" position, >> counting from the bottom :-) > > I did mine alone as well. It is definitely a very heavy machine. I had > back pains for days after doing that. > Probably hard to justify the cost for occasional use, but I'd really like to get one of these before I do myself any permanent damage: http://www.edmolift.co.uk/lift_trolleys.htm [link to random supplier of lift trolleys] I reckon you could slide out your kit, then pump that thing up underneath before undoing the screws. Replacement is the reverse of the removal procedure, as they say. -- Steve Maddison http://www.cosam.org/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 6 05:34:33 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 06:34:33 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/e rack questions In-Reply-To: <49627B4E.3080606@update.uu.se> References: <49627B4E.3080606@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Jan 5, 2009, at 4:27 PM, Pontus wrote: > I recently acquired a PDP-8/e with a TU56 and a PC04(I think) with > reader only. I've also gotten a DEC rack, but only one set of rails > which I think are wrong and incomplete to boot. I've done some > searching > on bitsavers, but I've only found partial depictions of the actual > rails. > > So, what I'm wondering is what does the rails for a PDP-8/e look like? > These are the ones I got (same rails, different angles): > http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/pdp8/rails_1.jpg > http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/pdp8/rails_2.jpg Those are definitely not PDP-8/e rack slides. I pulled mine out a bit and took some pics: http://www.neurotica.com/misc/pdp8e-rack-slides-1.jpg http://www.neurotica.com/misc/pdp8e-rack-slides-2.jpg Every rack-mounted PDP-8/e I've seen has had slides like this. These slides were made by ChassisTrak. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pontus at update.uu.se Tue Jan 6 05:47:09 2009 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 12:47:09 +0100 Subject: PDP-8/e rack questions In-Reply-To: References: <49627B4E.3080606@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <496344BD.9090605@update.uu.se> > > Those are definitely not PDP-8/e rack slides. I pulled mine out a > bit and took some pics: > > http://www.neurotica.com/misc/pdp8e-rack-slides-1.jpg > http://www.neurotica.com/misc/pdp8e-rack-slides-2.jpg > > Every rack-mounted PDP-8/e I've seen has had slides like this. > These slides were made by ChassisTrak. Thanks Dave. Now I know what I need to look for. They look pretty much like thinner versions of what I've seen in a 11/70 and its peripherals. Cheers, Pontus. From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Tue Jan 6 05:50:52 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 06:50:52 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/e rack questions In-Reply-To: References: <49627B4E.3080606@update.uu.se> Message-ID: Those sure look like what we had on PDP-11 systems, too. At least for most things: the CPU and peripheral logic boxes. The rails Pontus shows do look familiar, though. My first guess is that they might come from later products, perhaps from boxes that are pulled out all the time rather than only for maintenance -- the RL01/02 drive, for example. paul > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire > Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 6:35 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Re: PDP-8/e rack questions > > On Jan 5, 2009, at 4:27 PM, Pontus wrote: > > I recently acquired a PDP-8/e with a TU56 and a PC04(I think) with > > reader only. I've also gotten a DEC rack, but only one set of rails > > which I think are wrong and incomplete to boot. I've done some > > searching > > on bitsavers, but I've only found partial depictions of the actual > > rails. > > > > So, what I'm wondering is what does the rails for a PDP-8/e look > like? > > These are the ones I got (same rails, different angles): > > http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/pdp8/rails_1.jpg > > http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/pdp8/rails_2.jpg > > Those are definitely not PDP-8/e rack slides. I pulled mine out a > bit and took some pics: > > http://www.neurotica.com/misc/pdp8e-rack-slides-1.jpg > http://www.neurotica.com/misc/pdp8e-rack-slides-2.jpg > > Every rack-mounted PDP-8/e I've seen has had slides like this. > These slides were made by ChassisTrak. > > -Dave > > > > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > From david at cantrell.org.uk Tue Jan 6 05:56:57 2009 From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 11:56:57 +0000 Subject: Z80 instruction fetch mechanism In-Reply-To: <495E7961.7030005@gmail.com> References: <495E7961.7030005@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090106115656.GA15813@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> On Fri, Jan 02, 2009 at 02:30:25PM -0600, Jules Richardson wrote: > Basically they were wondering what the internals of the Z80's instruction > fetch were, given that some instructions are multiple bytes in length, but > there's only a single-byte instruction register. Speaking from memory (fairly recent memory as it happens, from writing an emulator) there are two types of multi-byte instruction: 1. one byte instruction + data (eg a value to load into a register) 2. prefix byte(s) + one byte instruction (+ data for some instructions) The prefix bytes either: 1. effectively swap the HL and IX or IY register (the DD and FD prefixes) 2. change to a different instruction set (the CB and ED prefixes) 3. are insane and look suspiciously like the state machine doing a fandango (the DD CB and FD CB prefixes). AFAIK Zilog never documented any of these. That last case includes instructions like "attempt to reset bit 3 of the byte at (IX+42) and also put the result in register B, even if the new byte cannot be written at the said address". See this excellent page on how to decode an instruction byte, specifically these sections for the various prefix bytes: http://www.z80.info/decoding.htm#cb http://www.z80.info/decoding.htm#ed http://www.z80.info/decoding.htm#dd -- David Cantrell | Godless Liberal Elitist Us Germans take our humour very seriously -- German cultural attache talking to the Today Programme, about the German supposed lack of a sense of humour, 29 Aug 2001 From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 6 06:02:09 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 07:02:09 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/e rack questions In-Reply-To: References: <49627B4E.3080606@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <892A6073-A97D-4B5C-B791-AFE92FCB7459@neurotica.com> On Jan 5, 2009, at 5:32 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: >>> Also, the full height PDP family rack was called H960, but what >>> was the shorter version called, depicted here: >>> http://www.corestore.org/8m-1.jpg > > If I am not mistaken they are called H950. Come to think of it, > in H960 fit *6* 10.5" high units, in an H950 fit *4* 10.5" high > units :-) But as said, not 100% sure that they are called H950. > Anyway, I would love to get one "H950" here in The Netherlands! I know those racks; love 'em...I've never been able to find one. The guy I mentioned the other day (my childhood PDP mentor who is working on an 8/a for a factory) had several when I used to hang out at his place, but that was ~1985...they are long gone. I'll ask him what the part number was; he may remember. H950, though...I'm pretty sure that is the part number of the large rectangular bracket that the rear door mounts to on the rear of an H960. Page 6 of the PDP-8/e Illustrated Parts Breakdown suggests this (see item #24, referenced on page 8). I have one of these frames in my garage, from one of my racks...if I can find it, I'll take a look. The only thing I'm 100% sure about is that I've seen "H950" on a sticker somewhere on one of my 19" racks that looks exactly like an H960. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From david at cantrell.org.uk Tue Jan 6 06:09:50 2009 From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 12:09:50 +0000 Subject: Z80 instruction fetch mechanism In-Reply-To: <495EE500.4030201@pacbell.net> References: <495E7961.7030005@gmail.com> <495EE500.4030201@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <20090106120950.GB15813@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> On Fri, Jan 02, 2009 at 10:09:36PM -0600, Jim Battle wrote: > Rodnay Zaks had a fat Z80 book that went into quite some detail of the > timing of the bus and mentioned a hidden "W" register, but I don't recall > what that was for -- holding a byte temporarily during some do-si-do. I > have the book but it is buried in the garage. The book is Programming The Z80, now sadly out of print but commonly available second-hand. It's a very good book on assembler programming in general as well as being an excellent Z80 reference - although note that it ignores *all* the "undocumented" instructions. He also mentions a hidden Z register, but never mentions what W and Z are used for. In my emulator, I use W whenever doing things with (HL) and Z in the CP and CPI instructions. In both cases I could have used a temporary variable instead, but I chose early on to implement them as registers to keep the internal API a bit more consistent if I found myself using them. Source code, for those who care: http://drhyde.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/drhyde/perlmodules/CPU-Emulator-Z80/lib/CPU/Emulator/Z80.pm?view=markup -- David Cantrell | Enforcer, South London Linguistic Massive Perl: the only language that makes Welsh look acceptable From quapla at xs4all.nl Tue Jan 6 06:22:12 2009 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 13:22:12 +0100 (CET) Subject: PDP-8/e rack questions Message-ID: <16859.213.169.196.228.1231244532.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> The 'short' rack is indeed a H950 (H950-AA). The one I have houses curently my 11/35 config (11/35, RX02, RL02). I'm considering to converting this rack into a GT40 setup, but I do miss the keyboard for it (LK40). Ed > On Jan 5, 2009, at 5:32 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: >>>> Also, the full height PDP family rack was called H960, but what >>>> was the shorter version called, depicted here: >>>> http://www.corestore.org/8m-1.jpg >> >> If I am not mistaken they are called H950. Come to think of it, >> in H960 fit *6* 10.5" high units, in an H950 fit *4* 10.5" high >> units :-) But as said, not 100% sure that they are called H950. >> Anyway, I would love to get one "H950" here in The Netherlands! > > I know those racks; love 'em...I've never been able to find one. > The guy I mentioned the other day (my childhood PDP mentor who is > working on an 8/a for a factory) had several when I used to hang out > at his place, but that was ~1985...they are long gone. I'll ask him > what the part number was; he may remember. > > H950, though...I'm pretty sure that is the part number of the > large rectangular bracket that the rear door mounts to on the rear of > an H960. Page 6 of the PDP-8/e Illustrated Parts Breakdown suggests > this (see item #24, referenced on page 8). I have one of these > frames in my garage, from one of my racks...if I can find it, I'll > take a look. > > The only thing I'm 100% sure about is that I've seen "H950" on a > sticker somewhere on one of my 19" racks that looks exactly like an > H960. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > > From djg at pdp8.net Tue Jan 6 07:26:33 2009 From: djg at pdp8.net (djg at pdp8.net) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 08:26:33 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/e rack questions Message-ID: <200901061326.n06DQXe18178@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> For my PC01 the rails can be seen here (third from top). Sounds like the PC04 rails are similar. They have an added plate to make the rack attachment stronger since they don't bolt at the back. http://www.pdp8.net/shows/vcfe08/pics/booth3.shtml http://www.pdp8.net/shows/vcfe08/pics/showing.shtml Normal rails work fine, my PC04 didn't have any so I used normal ones that attach both front and back. You can see that in the next picture. For the TU56 I cheated. I mounted angle iron below it which I can slide it in on and then bolt at my leisure. The drive has a lip which makes things a little strange but works pretty well. I used aluminum but that is messed up by sliding the drive. http://www.pdp8.net/shows/tcf05/pics/big_stuff.shtml?small The maintenance manual says how it is supposed to be installed. It has a a support bracket between the rails the drive rests on. (pg 2-3) http://www.pdp8online.com/pdp8cgi/query_docs/view.pl?id=27 From JELynch at stny.rr.com Tue Jan 6 07:47:24 2009 From: JELynch at stny.rr.com (James Lynch) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 08:47:24 -0500 Subject: Free Calculators In-Reply-To: <49633AB4.4020909@stillhq.com> References: <0KD100DC0EN4XY90@msgmmp-1.gci.net> <49633AB4.4020909@stillhq.com> Message-ID: <496360EC.6050508@stny.rr.com> Hi Grant, I would be happy to take the HP-35. Nanoman Doug Jackson wrote: > Hi Grant, > > I love little TI calcs - Happy to pay for shipping to Australia if > they are still on. > > regarding the others, have a look on e-pay. Hapy to take those as > well, but can't spend too much lest I attract the attention of my wife!! > > Doug > > > Grant Stockly wrote: >> I have a SR-51 TI calculator. I don't know if it works. Available >> for shipping costs. >> >> I also have a HP-35 with manual, purchase receipt, hard case, and >> power supply. It doesn't work with the power supply as is, but I >> don't know if the power supply works. Available for shipping costs. >> >> If they aren't worth anything, I can send them to the recycler. I >> don't know if there are any useful parts or not. >> >> I also have some little computer/calculator units. They are like the >> TRS-80 portable version, except smaller. I'm not sure what I'm going >> to do with them. >> >> > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 6 07:56:46 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 08:56:46 -0500 Subject: Lifting heavy rack-mount gear (was Re: PDP-8/e rack questions) In-Reply-To: <95838e090901060307ia16512dt69ff5866f7d14425@mail.gmail.com> References: <95838e090901060307ia16512dt69ff5866f7d14425@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Jan 6, 2009, at 6:07 AM, Steve Maddison wrote: >>> That is how my TU56 is hung in the H960 rack. You need help to >>> mount the TU56. I did it alone, and remember that is was heavy >>> to do on my own, hanging the TU56 in the 5th 10.5" position, >>> counting from the bottom :-) >> >> I did mine alone as well. It is definitely a very heavy >> machine. I had >> back pains for days after doing that. >> > > Probably hard to justify the cost for occasional use, but I'd really > like to get one of these before I do myself any permanent damage: > > http://www.edmolift.co.uk/lift_trolleys.htm [link to random supplier > of lift trolleys] > > I reckon you could slide out your kit, then pump that thing up > underneath before undoing the screws. Replacement is the reverse of > the removal procedure, as they say. I had one of those at work many years ago. I loved it. When I achieve world domination, I'll buy one for myself. :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Jan 6 08:56:18 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 14:56:18 +0000 Subject: Lifting heavy rack-mount gear (was Re: PDP-8/e rack questions) In-Reply-To: <95838e090901060307ia16512dt69ff5866f7d14425@mail.gmail.com> References: <95838e090901060307ia16512dt69ff5866f7d14425@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49637112.8080204@dunnington.plus.com> On 06/01/2009 11:07, Steve Maddison wrote: > 2009/1/6 Dave McGuire : >> On Jan 5, 2009, at 5:37 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: >>> That is how my TU56 is hung in the H960 rack. You need help to >>> mount the TU56. I did it alone, and remember that is was heavy >>> to do on my own, hanging the TU56 in the 5th 10.5" position, >>> counting from the bottom :-) >> I did mine alone as well. It is definitely a very heavy machine. I had >> back pains for days after doing that. > > Probably hard to justify the cost for occasional use, but I'd really > like to get one of these before I do myself any permanent damage: > http://www.edmolift.co.uk/lift_trolleys.htm [link to random supplier > of lift trolleys] Someone else (maybe Jay) mentioned Genie Load Lifters on the list a few years back, and I bought two of these for work -- they're perfect for rackmount kit and fold up to take very little space when not in use. http://www.genieindustries.com/ml-series/ml-1-2.asp I think ours cost about UKP280 last time we bought one, and it's worth every penny. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Jan 6 08:58:10 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 14:58:10 +0000 Subject: PDP-8/e rack questions In-Reply-To: References: <49627B4E.3080606@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <49637182.30706@dunnington.plus.com> On 06/01/2009 11:50, Paul Koning wrote: > Those sure look like what we had on PDP-11 systems, too. At least for > most things: the CPU and peripheral logic boxes. > > The rails Pontus shows do look familiar, though. My first guess is that > they might come from later products, perhaps from boxes that are pulled > out all the time rather than only for maintenance -- the RL01/02 drive, > for example. They're not off RL01/2 drives -- they're too fat. They don't look like anything I've seen on any DEC equipment; they look more like generic x86 server rack slides. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire >> Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 6:35 AM >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only >> Subject: Re: PDP-8/e rack questions >> >> On Jan 5, 2009, at 4:27 PM, Pontus wrote: >>> I recently acquired a PDP-8/e with a TU56 and a PC04(I think) with >>> reader only. I've also gotten a DEC rack, but only one set of rails >>> which I think are wrong and incomplete to boot. I've done some >>> searching >>> on bitsavers, but I've only found partial depictions of the actual >>> rails. >>> >>> So, what I'm wondering is what does the rails for a PDP-8/e look >> like? >>> These are the ones I got (same rails, different angles): >>> http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/pdp8/rails_1.jpg >>> http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/pdp8/rails_2.jpg >> Those are definitely not PDP-8/e rack slides. I pulled mine out a >> bit and took some pics: >> >> http://www.neurotica.com/misc/pdp8e-rack-slides-1.jpg >> http://www.neurotica.com/misc/pdp8e-rack-slides-2.jpg >> >> Every rack-mounted PDP-8/e I've seen has had slides like this. >> These slides were made by ChassisTrak. All of mine look like that too. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Jan 6 09:26:17 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 09:26:17 -0600 Subject: PDP-8/e rack questions In-Reply-To: <49637182.30706@dunnington.plus.com> References: <49627B4E.3080606@update.uu.se> <49637182.30706@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <49637819.8070904@gmail.com> Pete Turnbull wrote: > They're not off RL01/2 drives -- they're too fat. They don't look like > anything I've seen on any DEC equipment; they look more like generic x86 > server rack slides. Seconded. I've seen ones exactly like that on a lot of more modern equipment. Nice slides, just not original. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Jan 6 09:33:46 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 15:33:46 +0000 Subject: Jupiter Ace PCB In-Reply-To: <01N3Z80PWFO2MWQSXV@vms.eurokom.ie> References: <01N3Z80PWFO2MWQSXV@vms.eurokom.ie> Message-ID: <496379DA.1020502@philpem.me.uk> Peter Coghlan wrote: >> A few of you might remember the Jupiter Ace I had that took a 9V spike to >> the expansion slot -- and my futile attempts at repairing it. It's been well >> over four years since I sent it to a listmember who offered to repair it, and >> all attempts to get the board or the spares I sent with it have failed. At >> this point, I haven't seen hide nor hair of him in months, although he's >> apparently still updating his website... >> > > Hi Phil, > > If you are not going to let us know the identity of the person involved, > please at least inform the list owner. A lot of people regard membership > of the list as conferring a degree of trustworthyness and it would be a > shame if that was damaged. The person in question is Lee Davison. Specifically, the Lee Davison that maintains the website . I sent the Ace motherboard to him in ~2002, complete with about ?7 worth of stamps and a ready-filled-out Special Delivery sticker. The agreement was, he'd try and fix it, and if he couldn't fix it (or if I asked for it to be returned), he'd return it. I'm fully aware that postage prices have increased over the past few years, and I've offered to pay for them. The last time I heard from Lee was in April 2004; he said he didn't want to send it back "disassembled, which it is -- very much so". It can't be in much worse shape than it was when I sent it.. the CPU and RAM were removed, among other things. IIRC, it was due a full set of new IC sockets (the CPU socket was certainly well stuffed)... > Ps: I once repaired a Jupiter Ace for a friend. At the time, I had no idea > whatsoever how to diagnose the problem. Luckily, the defective RAM chip gave > itself away by overheating (to the point of burning my finger) and replacing > it sorted it out. Yeah, 2114s like doing that... I was going to build a RAM tester for 2114s at one point, until I realised that they don't usually fail with any degree of subtlety :) > I do have a very bad memory so I hope it wasn't me you sent your Ace to :-( > However, I don't fit the bill as I don't have a website :-) > Unless I've forgotten about that too... LOL! :) Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From frustum at pacbell.net Tue Jan 6 09:36:19 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 09:36:19 -0600 Subject: two old computer books for the cost of shipping In-Reply-To: <49628AF2.9020808@pacbell.net> References: <49628AF2.9020808@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <49637A73.2020409@pacbell.net> Jim Battle wrote: > "Logical Design of Digital Computers", Montgomery Phister, Jr., (c) > 1958, 5th printing 1960. hardback w/cover, 400 pages, good shape. > > "Digital Computer Design", Braun, 1963. hardback, 600 pages, good shape. I should have sent this earlier -- the books have been claimed. Thanks From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Jan 6 09:50:00 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 10:50:00 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/e rack questions In-Reply-To: <49637182.30706@dunnington.plus.com> References: <49627B4E.3080606@update.uu.se> <49637182.30706@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <200901061050.00110.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 06 January 2009, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 06/01/2009 11:50, Paul Koning wrote: > > Those sure look like what we had on PDP-11 systems, too. At least > > for most things: the CPU and peripheral logic boxes. > > > > The rails Pontus shows do look familiar, though. My first guess is > > that they might come from later products, perhaps from boxes that > > are pulled out all the time rather than only for maintenance -- the > > RL01/02 drive, for example. > > They're not off RL01/2 drives -- they're too fat. They don't look > like anything I've seen on any DEC equipment; they look more like > generic x86 server rack slides. There is one place that I've seen those recently on DEC equipment (I'm not 100% sure they're the same, but it is the same type), which is the rails for the massbuss controller in the bottom of a RM02/RM03 drive. > >>> These are the ones I got (same rails, different angles): > >>> http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/pdp8/rails_1.jpg > >>> http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/pdp8/rails_2.jpg Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From rickb at bensene.com Tue Jan 6 11:36:27 2009 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 09:36:27 -0800 Subject: PDP-8/e rack questions In-Reply-To: References: <49627B4E.3080606@update.uu.se> Message-ID: Dave McGuire helpfully wrote: > Those are definitely not PDP-8/e rack slides. I pulled mine out a > bit and took some pics: > > http://www.neurotica.com/misc/pdp8e-rack-slides-1.jpg > http://www.neurotica.com/misc/pdp8e-rack-slides-2.jpg > > Every rack-mounted PDP-8/e I've seen has had slides like this. > These slides were made by ChassisTrak. > I went and looked at the slides on my PDP-8/e in a standard DEC full-height rack, and they are identical (down to the labels) to those shown in the pix that Dave took. The 8/e system that I have (8/e, PC04 reader/punch, 1 RK05, 1 RX02, 2 serial ports, Timeshare/Memory Expansion, 16K Core, 8K MOS memory) is original as configured by DEC, so I'm sure that the slides for the 8/e are the correct ones. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Tue Jan 6 12:49:20 2009 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 18:49:20 +0000 Subject: [Fwd: AT&T UNIX PC 3B1 Chicago area, northwest] Message-ID: <1231267760.17228.1.camel@entasis> Reply to the From: address below, not to me - LJW -------- Forwarded Message -------- From: Cheryl & John Wilkins Reply-To: Cheryl & John Wilkins To: cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org Subject: AT&T UNIX PC 3B1 Chicago area, northwest Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 12:20:42 -0600 I have an AT&T UNIX PC 3B1 I'd like to get into good hands locally, northwest Chicago (ee.gg., Schaumburg, Hoffman Estates, Fox River areas). Indianapolis or Knoxville, TN, are possibilities, but less preferable. -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From nanoman at stny.rr.com Tue Jan 6 07:48:30 2009 From: nanoman at stny.rr.com (nanoman) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 08:48:30 -0500 Subject: Free Calculators In-Reply-To: <0KD100DC0EN4XY90@msgmmp-1.gci.net> References: <0KD100DC0EN4XY90@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Message-ID: <4963612E.40905@stny.rr.com> Grant, I would be happy to take the HP-35. Nanoman Grant Stockly wrote: > I have a SR-51 TI calculator. I don't know if it works. Available > for shipping costs. > > I also have a HP-35 with manual, purchase receipt, hard case, and > power supply. It doesn't work with the power supply as is, but I > don't know if the power supply works. Available for shipping costs. > > If they aren't worth anything, I can send them to the recycler. I > don't know if there are any useful parts or not. > > I also have some little computer/calculator units. They are like the > TRS-80 portable version, except smaller. I'm not sure what I'm going > to do with them. > > > From robinb at ruffnready.co.uk Tue Jan 6 10:49:04 2009 From: robinb at ruffnready.co.uk (robinb at ruffnready.co.uk) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 16:49:04 +0000 Subject: [pups] jove editor under 2.11BSD and cursor keys In-Reply-To: <4962685B.30005@gsi.de> Message-ID: IIRC the version of Jove that is on 2.11 was put on by me back in the late 80s to replace an even earlier version and I used a VT220 at home as opposed to xterm or whatever on a sim. As a result I was quite happy with using the defaults for whatever was set up for the then available hardware as I used a real PDP with real DEC terminals :-) Cheers Robin PS: It may have been updated since then I can't really recall. W.F.J.Mueller at gsi.de wrote: > Johnny Billquist wrote: > > Walter F. Mueller wrote: > >> .... > >> I get whenever I hit one of the cursor keys the message > >> > >> [ESC O unbound] > >... > > Please note the difference between "[" and "O"... :-) > > > > To give you a little more help: someone or something is changing your > > terminal to have application cursor keys. > > (And to point out what should be obvious now: your cursor keys can > > actually send two different kind of codes, depending on a setup parameter.) > > > > Johnny > > Thanks Johnny, that was exactly the problem. jove sets the terminal > (or the emulator) into 'Application Cursor Key' and 'Application Keypad' > mode. Looking in xterm at the VT Options popup (with CONTROL-MB2) shows > this nicely. Binding the 'ansi-codes' function of Jove 4.9 (that's what > comes with 2.11BSD) to [O resolves the cursor issue. > > What I still don't understand is why jove comes with defaults which > don't work. It puts the cursor and keypad keys into application mode, > which makes perfect sense especially for the keypad, and than looks > for [[ rather [O. Probably to make retrocomputing more fun :). > > > Thanks and with best regards, Walter > _______________________________________________ > PUPS mailing list > PUPS at minnie.tuhs.org > https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups > From bqt at softjar.se Tue Jan 6 10:54:01 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 17:54:01 +0100 Subject: [pups] jove editor under 2.11BSD and cursor keys In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49638CA9.6010703@softjar.se> And most proper emacs (and clone) users don't use the arrow keys, but use ^P, ^N, ^F and ^B. So this particular problem don't show. :-) Jove is actually a pretty nice Emacs clone. I wonder if I should try to port it to RSX... Johnny robinb at ruffnready.co.uk wrote: > IIRC the version of Jove that is on 2.11 was put on by me back in the late 80s to replace an even earlier version and I used a VT220 at home as opposed to xterm or whatever on a sim. As a result I was quite happy with using the defaults for whatever was set up for the then available hardware as I used a real PDP with real DEC terminals :-) > > Cheers > > Robin > > PS: It may have been updated since then I can't really recall. > > W.F.J.Mueller at gsi.de wrote: >> Johnny Billquist wrote: >>> Walter F. Mueller wrote: >>>> .... >>>> I get whenever I hit one of the cursor keys the message >>>> >>>> [ESC O unbound] >>> ... >>> Please note the difference between "[" and "O"... :-) >>> >>> To give you a little more help: someone or something is changing your >>> terminal to have application cursor keys. >>> (And to point out what should be obvious now: your cursor keys can >>> actually send two different kind of codes, depending on a setup parameter.) >>> >>> Johnny >> Thanks Johnny, that was exactly the problem. jove sets the terminal >> (or the emulator) into 'Application Cursor Key' and 'Application Keypad' >> mode. Looking in xterm at the VT Options popup (with CONTROL-MB2) shows >> this nicely. Binding the 'ansi-codes' function of Jove 4.9 (that's what >> comes with 2.11BSD) to [O resolves the cursor issue. >> >> What I still don't understand is why jove comes with defaults which >> don't work. It puts the cursor and keypad keys into application mode, >> which makes perfect sense especially for the keypad, and than looks >> for [[ rather [O. Probably to make retrocomputing more fun :). >> >> >> Thanks and with best regards, Walter >> _______________________________________________ >> PUPS mailing list >> PUPS at minnie.tuhs.org >> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups >> > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 6 12:48:36 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 18:48:36 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PDP-8/e rack questions In-Reply-To: <18786.32164.759003.207822@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> from "Paul Koning" at Jan 5, 9 04:37:40 pm Message-ID: > One drive TU56... interesting, didn't know those existed. I've only > seen pictures of one drive TU55s, but clearly that's not what you have > (the unit selector switch gives it away). I have one (my only TU56). the front casting is the same as for a dual-drive one, with the trasnport and heads fitted in the left drive position. There;'s a metal plate with stud fixed to it placed over the hols for the second set of motors/heads/controls with nuts and washers on the studs inside the unit to hold the blanking plate on. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 6 12:53:26 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 18:53:26 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PDP-8/e rack questions In-Reply-To: <49627B4E.3080606@update.uu.se> from "Pontus" at Jan 5, 9 10:27:42 pm Message-ID: > > Hello. > > I recently acquired a PDP-8/e with a TU56 and a PC04(I think) with > reader only. I've also gotten a DEC rack, but only one set of rails I thinkl that makes it a PR04. [..] > > What does the rails for a TU56 look like? I could not find any holes on > the sides, are they simply screwed in place with the holes behind the > flip-front? I think so (although it wouldn't be a bad idea to put a coule of bits of aluminium angle from front to back under the TU56 to support the chassis). There's no need to have the TU56 pull out, you see. You can get to the flip-chip boards from the back and the front panel/transport hinges down for access. > My TU56: http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/pdp8/tu56.jpg > > And what does the rails for a PC04 look like? I found this picture over > at Mikes great corestore site: http://www.corestore.org/8i-2.jpg, which > shows part of it. Now those are a little strage. They're quite short, not much deeper than the PC04 chassis. The rails are in 3 secions (as normal), one screws to the side of the PC04 chassis,. then the normal 'middle section' that slides over the rail o nthe PC04 and into the rail on the cabinet, and finally the cabinet-mounted part. That one has a large plate and the front end with a flange to fix to the front rail of the rack (screws in from the front) and also screws from the inside into the holes on the rear flange of said front rail in a real DEC rack. Finally there's a tie bar that's crewed between the rear ends of the cabinet-mounted secions, just behind the PC04 chassis. The thing is theese rails mount only tor the front upreights, nothing goes the full depth of the rack. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 6 13:08:57 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 19:08:57 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Free Calculators In-Reply-To: <0KD100DC0EN4XY90@msgmmp-1.gci.net> from "Grant Stockly" at Jan 5, 9 09:42:33 pm Message-ID: > I also have a HP-35 with manual, purchase receipt, hard case, and > power supply. It doesn't work with the power supply as is, but I > don't know if the power supply works. Available for shipping costs. _Any_ LED-display HP calculator (and for that matter early LCD models, the HP71 and earlier) are _always_ worth something, no matter what the condition is (OK, not if they'rve been run over by a steam roller ;-)). There are plenty of people who collect and repair such machines and can use them for spare parts, etc. If you want to have a go are repairing the HP35, I can tell you what the testpoints are and what you should see at each one. -tony From marvin at west.net Tue Jan 6 13:27:01 2009 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 11:27:01 -0800 Subject: MicroAngelo Board Message-ID: <4963B085.C60B89AE@west.net> I just put up another MicroAngelo S-100 board on the VCGM. Sorry for the additional "sale" post, but a number of people here were looking for one that might not check VCGM regularly. http://marketplace.vintage-computer.com/ From coredump at gifford.co.uk Tue Jan 6 14:14:03 2009 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 20:14:03 +0000 Subject: Z80 instruction fetch mechanism In-Reply-To: <495FA026.1040203@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <495E7961.7030005@gmail.com> <495EE500.4030201@pacbell.net> <495EEA34.4030606@pacbell.net> <495F7A4F.5010901@gifford.co.uk> <495FA026.1040203@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4963BB8B.8020802@gifford.co.uk> bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > John Honniball wrote: >> Yes, that is correct. I have both versions! The original was called >> "Programming the Z80" and was sold by Sybex along with "Programming >> the 6502" and "Programming the 6809". > > And programming the Z8000 ... Thank you for reminding me about that one! I found a copy, and it arrived in the post this morning. Now that I've seen the cover, I recall that a friend had one in about 1985, to build a Z8000 machine for his final-year university project. -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From toby at coreware.co.uk Tue Jan 6 14:19:27 2009 From: toby at coreware.co.uk (Tobias Russell) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 20:19:27 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/05 returns to life Message-ID: <1231273167.6447.87.camel@spasmo> I managed to coax my PDP-11/05 back into life today and ran a few simple programs on it successfully. As a result a few questions for the experts out there: 1. To get it up and running I had to replace its two fans both of which had failed which I did by scavenging another 11/05 chassis I have. Does anyone have any tips on reviving failed fans? Both spin freely by hand but when powered one hums heavily and the other reluctantly and somewhat noisily spins up (if kick started with a screwdriver). If recovery is impossible can anyone suggest suitable replacements? The current ones are labelled Super-Boxers 2. Is there a chasing lights program I can run on the 11/05? Would be nice to see it visibly doing something 3. At the moment the machine has 16KW of core (2 x 8KW planes). This together with the CPU fills all but the last slot on the Unibus (its a 5inch box so only 9 slots). I'd like to fit a DL11 so that I have some serial comms and ideally an RX11 as well so I can hook up my RX01 drives and boot RT-11. Can I make use of the 9th slot or does this have a special purpose? There is a lot of wire wrap going to slot 9 so I'm guessing its not suitable. 4. What versions of RT-11 is suitable for an 11/05 and what is the minimum memory to run it? Thanks, Toby -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Jan 6 14:50:04 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 20:50:04 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/05 returns to life In-Reply-To: <1231273167.6447.87.camel@spasmo> References: <1231273167.6447.87.camel@spasmo> Message-ID: <4963C3FC.4000004@philpem.me.uk> Tobias Russell wrote: > Does anyone have any tips on reviving failed fans? Both spin freely by > hand but when powered one hums heavily and the other reluctantly and > somewhat noisily spins up (if kick started with a screwdriver). If > recovery is impossible can anyone suggest suitable replacements? The > current ones are labelled Super-Boxers I'd have thought a standard fan of the same size would have been a suitable replacement. I've more or less standardised on the Papst aluminium-impeller fans, on the basis that they're built like the proverbial brick outhouse. Expensive, but they tend to outlast cheap imported cooling fans at least 2:1. If you really want to resurrect the fans you've got, you could try removing the label and putting a drop of 3-in-1 oil on the bearing. Don't expect it to be anything other than a temporary fix, though. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Tue Jan 6 14:55:58 2009 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 21:55:58 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/05 returns to life In-Reply-To: <1231273167.6447.87.camel@spasmo> References: <1231273167.6447.87.camel@spasmo> Message-ID: > From: toby at coreware.co.uk > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 20:19:27 +0000 > Subject: PDP-11/05 returns to life > > I managed to coax my PDP-11/05 back into life today and ran a few > simple programs on it successfully. Well done! > As a result a few questions for the experts out there: > > 1. To get it up and running I had to replace its two fans both of which > had failed which I did by scavenging another 11/05 chassis I have. > > Does anyone have any tips on reviving failed fans? Both spin freely by > hand but when powered one hums heavily and the other reluctantly and > somewhat noisily spins up (if kick started with a screwdriver). If > recovery is impossible can anyone suggest suitable replacements? The > current ones are labelled Super-Boxers My 11/05 is not near me, so I can't check. But AFAIK, they are standard 110V fans, used in almost all UNIBUS PDP-11's. Exception is the 11/44 which used weird fans, I seem to remember 35V - 75 Hz (!) > 2. Is there a chasing lights program I can run on the 11/05? Would be > nice to see it visibly doing something Search the net. There is a small program (estimate 7 words). It uses the RESET instruction (is that 000005?) ... not nice if you connect an RX01 or RX02 to the machine as on every RESET (INIT) the heads clunk! > 3. At the moment the machine has 16KW of core (2 x 8KW planes). This > together with the CPU fills all but the last slot on the Unibus (its a > 5inch box so only 9 slots). I'd like to fit a DL11 so that I have some > serial comms and ideally an RX11 as well so I can hook up my RX01 drives > and boot RT-11. Can I make use of the 9th slot or does this have a > special purpose? There is a lot of wire wrap going to slot 9 so I'm > guessing its not suitable. That depends on the backplane! Check my website (www.pdp-11.nl) in the PDP-11/05 folder, the link is called "backplanes". Direct access: www.pdp-11.nl/pdp11-05/cpu/backplanes.html > 4. What versions of RT-11 is suitable for an 11/05 and what is the > minimum memory to run it? My guess: any version, but XM will not fit (I think), so it's SJ or FB. I will not go into legal issues ... > Thanks, > Toby - Henk. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 6 15:09:08 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 21:09:08 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PDP-11/05 returns to life In-Reply-To: <1231273167.6447.87.camel@spasmo> from "Tobias Russell" at Jan 6, 9 08:19:27 pm Message-ID: > > I managed to coax my PDP-11/05 back into life today and ran a few simple > programs on it successfully. > > As a result a few questions for the experts out there: > > 1. To get it up and running I had to replace its two fans both of which > had failed which I did by scavenging another 11/05 chassis I have. > > Does anyone have any tips on reviving failed fans? Both spin freely by Hmmm... Normally they suffer from bad bearings, although I don't think this is the problem with yours. Most fans can be dismantled. I've come across 3 main types of assembly : A cap in the centre of the rotor, on the opposite sde to the label, retained by a circlip. Remove this, then take out any felt pads/waskers and remove the small circlip from thend of the (fixed) spindle. The rotor/blades then lifts off. A similar cap in the middle under the label. Often this cap is flexible plastic and is retained by the label. After removing it, there's thee circlip as above 2 screws under the lable. In this case, free the wiring/tag block first. Then remove the screws and lift the hosing off the motor/blades. On the top of the motor, you'll see a sirclip. Remove this, then lift the stator out. In all cases make sure you know where all the washers go. Some are special types (I've seen bonded fiber/metal washers with flats on the centre hole, for example). > hand but when powered one hums heavily and the other reluctantly and > somewhat noisily spins up (if kick started with a screwdriver). If This sounds, alas, like winding problems. I've never tried to rewind one.... > recovery is impossible can anyone suggest suitable replacements? The > current ones are labelled Super-Boxers IIRC, the 11/05 fans are pretty standard (unlike the 35V 70Hz fans used in te 11/44...) so you can probably get something new from a good electronics shop. The important thigns are the physcial size and the voltage rating -- IIRC you need a 115V AC fan here (even in Europe, you use 115V fans, they're run off the primary of the mains transformer acting as an autotransformer. [...] > 3. At the moment the machine has 16KW of core (2 x 8KW planes). This > together with the CPU fills all but the last slot on the Unibus (its a > 5inch box so only 9 slots). I'd like to fit a DL11 so that I have some > serial comms and ideally an RX11 as well so I can hook up my RX01 drives You have a console serial port built into the CPU board set. AFAIK it's current loop only (which is a bit of a pain), it's wired to the 40 pin Berg header on the back of the cabinet. > and boot RT-11. Can I make use of the 9th slot or does this have a > special purpose? There is a lot of wire wrap going to slot 9 so I'm > guessing its not suitable. AFAIK the 9th slot is just a standard SPC slot and could take either a DL11 or an RX11. Of course you can't put both in at the same time. What you can't do is take out one of the memory board sets and use those slots for peripherals. The wiring there is totally different. There was a backplane which took the CPU, one memory board set and, IIRC, 4 SPC boards. But that's not the backplane you have. -tony From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Tue Jan 6 15:31:38 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 16:31:38 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/05 returns to life References: <1231273167.6447.87.camel@spasmo> Message-ID: <18787.52666.361874.790456@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> >>>>> "Henk" == Henk Gooijen writes: >> 2. Is there a chasing lights program I can run on the 11/05? Would >> be nice to see it visibly doing something Henk> Search the net. There is a small program (estimate 7 words). It Henk> uses the RESET instruction (is that 000005?) ... not nice if Henk> you connect an RX01 or RX02 to the machine as on every RESET Henk> (INIT) the heads clunk! That's a bit ugly... A cleaner one is the RSTS null job. It relies on the fact that a number of PDP-11s -- including the 11/05 as far as I remember -- will display R0 in the lights during a WAIT instruction. RT11 won't do, that uses the status register so you need a machine that has it and that displays it. I forgot what RSX does. Not sure you could run that on an -05 anyway. Sufficiently old RT11s should work on that machine. So would RSTS V4A, if you can find an RK05 or RF11 or RP03 disk drive. :-) RSTS null job looks like this: ; THE SIMPLE NULL JOB 10$: MOV R2,R1 ;RELOAD THE WAIT COUNTER 20$: WAIT ;DISPLAY THE LIGHTS (R0) A WHILE SOB R1,20$ ;KEEP WAITING ROL R0 ;ELSE SHIFT PATTERN 1 PLACE LEFT BR 10$ ; AND AROUND AGAIN... You need a periodic interrupt, of course, to break out of the WAIT. paul From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jan 6 15:37:45 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 16:37:45 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/05 returns to life In-Reply-To: <1231273167.6447.87.camel@spasmo> References: <1231273167.6447.87.camel@spasmo> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 3:19 PM, Tobias Russell wrote: > I managed to coax my PDP-11/05 back into life today and ran a few simple > programs on it successfully. > > As a result a few questions for the experts out there: > > 1. To get it up and running I had to replace its two fans both of which > had failed which I did by scavenging another 11/05 chassis I have. > > Does anyone have any tips on reviving failed fans? Just what you've done... clean and lube (WD-40 is *not* lubricant!) If they really won't spin and they are oddball fans, you might need exact replacements (ISTR the 11/40 or 11/45 has that problem), but if you find a modern fan that's the same size and voltage, you are probably OK. > ... if recovery is impossible can anyone suggest suitable replacements? The > current ones are labelled Super-Boxers I think you might still be able to get fans like that, but I haven't tried in at least 5 years. > 2. Is there a chasing lights program I can run on the 11/05? Would be > nice to see it visibly doing something From: Toggle in the following program and start at 001000. Note that the RUN light will go out! Location Contents Opcode Comment 001000 012700 mov #1,r0 Load 1 into R0 001002 000001 001004 006100 rol r0 Rotate R0 left 001006 000005 reset Initialise bus (70ms) 001010 000775 br .-4 Loop back to 'rol r0' I do not know if this will work on an 11/05 because of the 'reset' instruction, but it's a start. You could replace the reset instruction with an inner loop on r1 without too much difficulty if this won't work on your machine. > 3. At the moment the machine has 16KW of core (2 x 8KW planes). This > together with the CPU fills all but the last slot on the Unibus (its a > 5inch box so only 9 slots). I'd like to fit a DL11 so that I have some > serial comms and ideally an RX11 as well so I can hook up my RX01 drives > and boot RT-11. Can I make use of the 9th slot or does this have a > special purpose? There is a lot of wire wrap going to slot 9 so I'm > guessing its not suitable. My memory is that you can use the 9th slot for an SPC (small peripheral controller), but check the 11/05 handbook to be certain. IIRC, The RX11 and DL11 do not need NPR (but the RX211 might), but look those up in a mid-1970s handbook to be certain. > 4. What versions of RT-11 is suitable for an 11/05 and what is the > minimum memory to run it? I would think that RT-11 v4.0 would work nicely on an 11/05. I'm pretty sure even the newer stuff will work, but since you don't care about MSCP support or other modern niceties, it may not be a big win for you. Games and such, at least the ones I know of, should run on V4 and V5, as long as you have enough core for the app itself. Don't expect to run ADVENT without a full boat of memory, but there are plenty of smaller apps out there. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 6 15:51:23 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 16:51:23 -0500 Subject: [pups] jove editor under 2.11BSD and cursor keys In-Reply-To: <49638CA9.6010703@softjar.se> References: <49638CA9.6010703@softjar.se> Message-ID: On Jan 6, 2009, at 11:54 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > And most proper emacs (and clone) users don't use the arrow keys, > but use ^P, ^N, ^F and ^B. So this particular problem don't show. :-) > > Jove is actually a pretty nice Emacs clone. I wonder if I should > try to port it to RSX... YES!! :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Jan 6 15:52:55 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 15:52:55 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/05 returns to life In-Reply-To: References: <1231273167.6447.87.camel@spasmo> Message-ID: <4963D2B7.108@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: >> ... if recovery is impossible can anyone suggest suitable replacements? The >> current ones are labelled Super-Boxers > > I think you might still be able to get fans like that, but I haven't > tried in at least 5 years. Sadly I gave away a whole box full just over a year ago. Most of them were Pabst all-metal ones, and those things are awesome - very quiet and built like tanks. I think there were a couple of Super-Boxers in there too, and they used plastic blade assemblies are were a lot louder in operation. cheers Jules From toby at coreware.co.uk Tue Jan 6 16:10:27 2009 From: toby at coreware.co.uk (Tobias Russell) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 22:10:27 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/05 returns to life In-Reply-To: References: <1231273167.6447.87.camel@spasmo> Message-ID: <1231279827.6447.97.camel@spasmo> Excellent so all this sounds encouraging. I've had a look at the Farnell website and there seems to be plenty of choice of 110V 12cm fans so buying some replacements shouldn't be a problem. With the onboard console, how hard is it to build a device to convert current loop into RS232 levels? It appears I have a PDP-11/05-JA backplane so I should be able to get my RX11 into slot 1. The next challenge will be to get an RX01 disk built with RT11 on it. I'm planning on making the image with SIMH and then use vtserver to copy the image onto the RX01 (connected to my 11/73). Does this sound like a sane approach? Thanks, Toby On Tue, 2009-01-06 at 16:37 -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 3:19 PM, Tobias Russell wrote: > > I managed to coax my PDP-11/05 back into life today and ran a few simple > > programs on it successfully. > > > > As a result a few questions for the experts out there: > > > > 1. To get it up and running I had to replace its two fans both of which > > had failed which I did by scavenging another 11/05 chassis I have. > > > > Does anyone have any tips on reviving failed fans? > > Just what you've done... clean and lube (WD-40 is *not* lubricant!) > If they really won't spin and they are oddball fans, you might need > exact replacements (ISTR the 11/40 or 11/45 has that problem), but if > you find a modern fan that's the same size and voltage, you are > probably OK. > > > > ... if recovery is impossible can anyone suggest suitable replacements? The > > current ones are labelled Super-Boxers > > I think you might still be able to get fans like that, but I haven't > tried in at least 5 years. > > > 2. Is there a chasing lights program I can run on the 11/05? Would be > > nice to see it visibly doing something > > From: > > Toggle in the following program and start at 001000. Note that the RUN > light will go out! > > Location Contents Opcode Comment > 001000 012700 mov #1,r0 Load 1 into R0 > 001002 000001 > 001004 006100 rol r0 Rotate R0 left > 001006 000005 reset Initialise bus (70ms) > 001010 000775 br .-4 Loop back to 'rol r0' > > I do not know if this will work on an 11/05 because of the 'reset' > instruction, but it's a start. You could replace the reset > instruction with an inner loop on r1 without too much difficulty if > this won't work on your machine. > > > 3. At the moment the machine has 16KW of core (2 x 8KW planes). This > > together with the CPU fills all but the last slot on the Unibus (its a > > 5inch box so only 9 slots). I'd like to fit a DL11 so that I have some > > serial comms and ideally an RX11 as well so I can hook up my RX01 drives > > and boot RT-11. Can I make use of the 9th slot or does this have a > > special purpose? There is a lot of wire wrap going to slot 9 so I'm > > guessing its not suitable. > > My memory is that you can use the 9th slot for an SPC (small > peripheral controller), but check the 11/05 handbook to be certain. > IIRC, The RX11 and DL11 do not need NPR (but the RX211 might), but > look those up in a mid-1970s handbook to be certain. > > > 4. What versions of RT-11 is suitable for an 11/05 and what is the > > minimum memory to run it? > > I would think that RT-11 v4.0 would work nicely on an 11/05. I'm > pretty sure even the newer stuff will work, but since you don't care > about MSCP support or other modern niceties, it may not be a big win > for you. Games and such, at least the ones I know of, should run on > V4 and V5, as long as you have enough core for the app itself. Don't > expect to run ADVENT without a full boat of memory, but there are > plenty of smaller apps out there. > > -ethan > -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Jan 6 16:17:34 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 14:17:34 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/05 returns to life In-Reply-To: <1231279827.6447.97.camel@spasmo> References: <1231273167.6447.87.camel@spasmo> <1231279827.6447.97.camel@spasmo> Message-ID: If you google the terms, I recall a school website that had a sample circuit for converting between RS232 and 20mA. There are also gadgets you can buy to do it - again, Google is your friend. -- Ian -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tobias Russell Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 2:10 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: PDP-11/05 returns to life Excellent so all this sounds encouraging. I've had a look at the Farnell website and there seems to be plenty of choice of 110V 12cm fans so buying some replacements shouldn't be a problem. With the onboard console, how hard is it to build a device to convert current loop into RS232 levels? It appears I have a PDP-11/05-JA backplane so I should be able to get my RX11 into slot 1. The next challenge will be to get an RX01 disk built with RT11 on it. I'm planning on making the image with SIMH and then use vtserver to copy the image onto the RX01 (connected to my 11/73). Does this sound like a sane approach? Thanks, Toby On Tue, 2009-01-06 at 16:37 -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 3:19 PM, Tobias Russell wrote: > > I managed to coax my PDP-11/05 back into life today and ran a few simple > > programs on it successfully. > > > > As a result a few questions for the experts out there: > > > > 1. To get it up and running I had to replace its two fans both of which > > had failed which I did by scavenging another 11/05 chassis I have. > > > > Does anyone have any tips on reviving failed fans? > > Just what you've done... clean and lube (WD-40 is *not* lubricant!) > If they really won't spin and they are oddball fans, you might need > exact replacements (ISTR the 11/40 or 11/45 has that problem), but if > you find a modern fan that's the same size and voltage, you are > probably OK. > > > > ... if recovery is impossible can anyone suggest suitable replacements? The > > current ones are labelled Super-Boxers > > I think you might still be able to get fans like that, but I haven't > tried in at least 5 years. > > > 2. Is there a chasing lights program I can run on the 11/05? Would be > > nice to see it visibly doing something > > From: > > Toggle in the following program and start at 001000. Note that the RUN > light will go out! > > Location Contents Opcode Comment > 001000 012700 mov #1,r0 Load 1 into R0 > 001002 000001 > 001004 006100 rol r0 Rotate R0 left > 001006 000005 reset Initialise bus (70ms) > 001010 000775 br .-4 Loop back to 'rol r0' > > I do not know if this will work on an 11/05 because of the 'reset' > instruction, but it's a start. You could replace the reset > instruction with an inner loop on r1 without too much difficulty if > this won't work on your machine. > > > 3. At the moment the machine has 16KW of core (2 x 8KW planes). This > > together with the CPU fills all but the last slot on the Unibus (its a > > 5inch box so only 9 slots). I'd like to fit a DL11 so that I have some > > serial comms and ideally an RX11 as well so I can hook up my RX01 drives > > and boot RT-11. Can I make use of the 9th slot or does this have a > > special purpose? There is a lot of wire wrap going to slot 9 so I'm > > guessing its not suitable. > > My memory is that you can use the 9th slot for an SPC (small > peripheral controller), but check the 11/05 handbook to be certain. > IIRC, The RX11 and DL11 do not need NPR (but the RX211 might), but > look those up in a mid-1970s handbook to be certain. > > > 4. What versions of RT-11 is suitable for an 11/05 and what is the > > minimum memory to run it? > > I would think that RT-11 v4.0 would work nicely on an 11/05. I'm > pretty sure even the newer stuff will work, but since you don't care > about MSCP support or other modern niceties, it may not be a big win > for you. Games and such, at least the ones I know of, should run on > V4 and V5, as long as you have enough core for the app itself. Don't > expect to run ADVENT without a full boat of memory, but there are > plenty of smaller apps out there. > > -ethan > -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Jan 6 16:27:03 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 22:27:03 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/05 returns to life In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4963DAB7.8010205@dunnington.plus.com> On 06/01/2009 21:09, Tony Duell wrote: > On 06/01/2009 20:19, Tobias Russell wrote: >> I managed to coax my PDP-11/05 back into life today and ran a few simple >> programs on it successfully. >> >> As a result a few questions for the experts out there: >> >> 1. To get it up and running I had to replace its two fans both of which >> had failed which I did by scavenging another 11/05 chassis I have. >> >> Does anyone have any tips on reviving failed fans? Both spin freely by > > Hmmm... Normally they suffer from bad bearings, although I don't think > this is the problem with yours. I agree with Tony, if they spin by hand, you don't have much of a bearing/lubrication problem. If they do need lubrication, hot grease is the stuff to soak the bearings in. > This sounds, alas, like winding problems. I've never tried to rewind one.... > >> recovery is impossible can anyone suggest suitable replacements? The >> current ones are labelled Super-Boxers I'm 99.99% certain they're 110V AC fans -- that's what almost all PDP-11 and PDP-8 fans are. Not always easy to get over here, but they do exist (Farnell list a couple but not the right size, I think). In fact, I think I may have one spare if you get stuck. >> 2. Is there a chasing lights program I can run on the 11/05? Would be >> nice to see it visibly doing something > You have a console serial port built into the CPU board set. AFAIK it's > current loop only (which is a bit of a pain), it's wired to the 40 pin > Berg header on the back of the cabinet. Yes, I think it's basically a KL11 equivalent. DEC used to make a thing called a DLV11-KB, which is a 20mA-to-RS232 converter in small black box about 70mm wide x 130mm long by 22mm thick, on a flange about 115mm wide. It has a 10-way Berg on one end and the usual AMP 8-way flat Mate-N-Lok on the other; it's actually meant to adapt a DLV11 (RS232 only) to current loop but AFAIK it'll work the other way round, so to speak. Of course it's fairly simple to roll your own. The on-board SLU in the KD11-B can be disabled by installing a jumper at W1. W1 is on the M7261 board (control logic and microprogram board) between E69 and C51 (about halfway up the board, roughly in line with edge connector DH1/DH2). That was sometimes done in order to install a DL11-W (SLU + LTC clock) or some other SLU that did have EIA/RS232 capability. >> and boot RT-11. Can I make use of the 9th slot or does this have a >> special purpose? There is a lot of wire wrap going to slot 9 so I'm >> guessing its not suitable. Dunno about the 9th slot but you should be able to run RT-11 V4 no problem in 16KW, and most versions of V5 (though not the XM monitor, and the FB might be too big to be useful). I should have the 11/05 print set and some manuals somewhere. Maybe I need to dig it out of storage. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Jan 6 16:27:01 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 22:27:01 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/05 returns to life In-Reply-To: <18787.52666.361874.790456@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> References: <1231273167.6447.87.camel@spasmo> <18787.52666.361874.790456@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> Message-ID: <4963DAB5.90809@dunnington.plus.com> On 06/01/2009 21:31, Paul Koning wrote: >>>>>> "Henk" == Henk Gooijen writes: > > >> 2. Is there a chasing lights program I can run on the 11/05? Would > >> be nice to see it visibly doing something > > Henk> Search the net. There is a small program (estimate 7 words). It > Henk> uses the RESET instruction (is that 000005?) ... not nice if > Henk> you connect an RX01 or RX02 to the machine as on every RESET > Henk> (INIT) the heads clunk! > > That's a bit ugly... > > A cleaner one is the RSTS null job. > You need a periodic interrupt, of course, to break out of the WAIT. But you probably don't have one on a basic 11/05, which is why the commonly-used one is the one Henk and Ethan mentioned, with the RESET instruction. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From chd_1 at nktelco.net Tue Jan 6 17:35:28 2009 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H Dickman) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 18:35:28 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/e rack questions In-Reply-To: References: <49627B4E.3080606@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <4963EAC0.1090408@nktelco.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > Every rack-mounted PDP-8/e I've seen has had slides like this. > These slides were made by ChassisTrak. > > -Dave > Actually General Devices in Indianapolis, Indiana, USA and they are still around. www.gendevco.com -chuck From chd_1 at nktelco.net Tue Jan 6 19:01:45 2009 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H Dickman) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 20:01:45 -0500 Subject: [pups] jove editor under 2.11BSD and cursor keys In-Reply-To: <49638CA9.6010703@softjar.se> References: <49638CA9.6010703@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4963FEF9.5080300@nktelco.net> Johnny Billquist wrote: > And most proper emacs (and clone) users don't use the arrow keys, but > use ^P, ^N, ^F and ^B. So this particular problem don't show. :-) > I have only used vi with 2.11bsd, but have learned to not use the arrows keys or pg up, pg dn. They work in insert mode as long as you press and release slowly... Once autorepeat kicks in, one of the ESC eventually causes a transition to normal mode and you end up inserting a bunch of crap into the file. I seem to recall lots of ^B. An unfortunate effect of using the ESC for both a mode change and a key prefix. -chuck From bob at jfcl.com Tue Jan 6 19:27:01 2009 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 17:27:01 -0800 Subject: KD-11F (11/03) in a BA11-N?? Message-ID: <005201c97067$0a841320$1f8c3960$@com> I have a BA11-N chassis that says "11/03-L" on the front, and the backplane in it is an H9273-A. I want to get this to work with a 11/03 CPU (a real KD11-F M7264) but there's something strange about this backplane that I can't figure out. The boards I'm using are the M7264, an M8044 (MSV11-D), M8017 (DLV11-E) and a BDV11. In a small, 4 slot 11/03 chassis (a BA11-S, I think) all these boards work fine together, however in the BA-11N there's no joy. It powers up, but the processor appears to halt immediately - it never executes the BDV11 bootstrap. But, if I replace the 11/03 CPU in the BA11-N with a 11/23 CPU card, then everything is fine. So the 11/03 works fine in the BA11-S but not in the BA11-N, and the 11/23 works fine in the BA11-N. It seems fairly likely that there's some kind 16/18/22 bit addressing issue here, but what's the fix? It must have been possible to use the KD11-F in the BA11-N, given the 11/03-L designation. FWIW, the backplane has not been field upgraded with wire wrap to add the extra address bits. In fact, the H9273-A doesn't even have wire wrap pins at all - the pins are all cut off right at PCB level. Is this the standard backplane for a 11/03-L system? I'm wondering if at some time maybe the whole backplane was replaced with a newer one. Thanks, Bob P.S. Yes, I do know that BA11-S backplane is QQ/QQ where as the H9273 is QQ/CD. I don't think that's the problem - there's nothing in the CD slots below the 11/03 card. From db at db.net Tue Jan 6 20:03:23 2009 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 21:03:23 -0500 Subject: Lifting heavy rack-mount gear (was Re: PDP-8/e rack questions) In-Reply-To: <95838e090901060307ia16512dt69ff5866f7d14425@mail.gmail.com> References: <95838e090901060307ia16512dt69ff5866f7d14425@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090107020323.GA9735@night.db.net> On Tue, Jan 06, 2009 at 12:07:36PM +0100, Steve Maddison wrote: > 2009/1/6 Dave McGuire : > > On Jan 5, 2009, at 5:37 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: ... > > I did mine alone as well. It is definitely a very heavy machine. I had > > back pains for days after doing that. > > > > Probably hard to justify the cost for occasional use, but I'd really > like to get one of these before I do myself any permanent damage: I knew someone online (IRC) who had a finger amputated because a rack dropped on it. As a pianist, this squicked me quite a bit. I would highly recommend caution to anyone moving any heavy rack, don't be stupid. -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Jan 6 20:34:53 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 20:34:53 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/05 returns to life In-Reply-To: References: <1231273167.6447.87.camel@spasmo> Message-ID: <496414CD.8000301@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 3:19 PM, Tobias Russell wrote: > (WD-40 is *not* lubricant!) Agreed - it's depressing that their own website (www.wd40.com) claims "lubricates just about anything". I suppose that's true - briefly - then you'd be faced with stripping everything down, cleaning it, and lubricating it with something that *is* actually a lubricant. Marketing departments - bah! :-( From tiggerlasv at aim.com Tue Jan 6 20:59:08 2009 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 21:59:08 -0500 Subject: KD-11F (11/03) in a BA11-N?? Message-ID: <8CB3E8B0B4377F8-2A4-19BD@MBLK-M29.sysops.aol.com> Check out the BA11-N user guide, starting at chapter 2. Make sure the appropriate jumpers are installed on the backplane, and on the control panel circuit board. They may affect operation of the KD11 modules. The BA11-N user guide can be found here: http://vt100.net/mirror/antonio/ba11nug1.pdf From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Jan 6 21:05:04 2009 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 22:05:04 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/05 returns to life In-Reply-To: <1231279827.6447.97.camel@spasmo> References: <1231273167.6447.87.camel@spasmo> <1231279827.6447.97.camel@spasmo> Message-ID: <49641BE0.8020401@compsys.to> >Tobias Russell wrote: >The next challenge will be to get an RX01 disk built >with RT11 on it. I'm planning on making the image with SIMH and then use >vtserver to copy the image onto the RX01 (connected to my 11/73). Does >this sound like a sane approach? > > Jerome Fine replies: First, you can use an RX02 drive to produce bootable RX01 bootable floppy media, but there are some details which are unusual. Ask if that ability could be useful. Second, there are probably PC compatible RX01 drives which would allow SIMH to directly produce an RX01 bootable floppy media. Since I have no experience with 8" floppy drives on a PC, I can't help at all. An RX02 floppy drive on a PC is also possible as far as I have heard, but a Catweasal controller is needed, as far as I know. Again, I don't know any of the details and it is possible that only Ersatz-11 supports an RX02 floppy on a PC. As for which version of RT-11, RT11XM can't be run on a PDP-11/05 since there is no memory management hardware, aside from the requirement that there be at least 32 KWords or 64 KBytes of physical memory. V04.00 is a reasonable version of RT-11 to run on a PDP-11/05. I would suggest that you use RT11FB if you are doing anything extensive since RT11SJ performs a RESET after each command - which really slows things when a floppy is used. V05.03 with RT11FB is a very nice version of RT-11, but uses a bit more memory then V04.00 which may be a problem with only 16 KWords. However, the extra RT-11 features are probably worth the extra memory. You can run all of those versions of RT-11 under SIMH and check for yourself which seems most suitable. Since both the RT11SJ and RT11FB monitors use 56 KBytes under SIMH (rather than 64 KBytes since the top 8 KBytes are reserved for the IOPAGE registers), just subtract 24 KBytes of memory from what the background job has available and you will know what to expect on the PDP-11/05. Under V05.03 of RT-11, the command is: SHOW MEMORY (or just SH M) If you have any other RT-11 questions, just ask, especially to help with setting up a boot RX01 floppy media. A V05.03 distribution of RT-11 is available for download to be run under SIMH. at: http://www.classiccmp.org/PDP-11/RT-11/dists/ Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jan 6 23:03:31 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 00:03:31 -0500 Subject: Lifting heavy rack-mount gear (was Re: PDP-8/e rack questions) In-Reply-To: <20090107020323.GA9735@night.db.net> References: <95838e090901060307ia16512dt69ff5866f7d14425@mail.gmail.com> <20090107020323.GA9735@night.db.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 9:03 PM, Diane Bruce wrote: > I knew someone online (IRC) who had a finger amputated because a rack > dropped on it. As a pianist, this squicked me quite a bit. !!! I play piano, too, so I completely understand. > I would highly recommend caution to anyone moving any heavy rack, don't > be stupid. When I was younger (in high school), I had a couple of minor incidents moving big DEC equipment - nothing requiring more than first aid, but enough to keep me cautious. Now that I'm substantially older, I'm eyeing that lift as an essential tool - most of my close calls have come from hefting large things into racks - RK05s, RA81s, etc., though I nearly crushed myself extracting an 11/750 from a Chevy Astro Van once - fortunately for me, it wedged in the door opening and did not slip more than a few inches, but it could have been much less pleasant. IIRC, Sridar has a story or two that, fortunately, I can't top. -ethan From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Jan 6 23:32:12 2009 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 21:32:12 -0800 Subject: Lifting heavy rack-mount gear (was Re: PDP-8/e rack questions) In-Reply-To: References: <95838e090901060307ia16512dt69ff5866f7d14425@mail.gmail.com> <20090107020323.GA9735@night.db.net> Message-ID: <17C06C01-E98B-4D33-9FA4-D435F4B578A1@shiresoft.com> On Jan 6, 2009, at 9:03 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> I would highly recommend caution to anyone moving any heavy rack, >> don't >> be stupid. > > When I was younger (in high school), I had a couple of minor incidents > moving big DEC equipment - nothing requiring more than first aid, but > enough to keep me cautious. Now that I'm substantially older, I'm > eyeing that lift as an essential tool - most of my close calls have > come from hefting large things into racks - RK05s, RA81s, etc., though > I nearly crushed myself extracting an 11/750 from a Chevy Astro Van > once - fortunately for me, it wedged in the door opening and did not > slip more than a few inches, but it could have been much less > pleasant. Having dropped an 11/780 off the back of a truck, I completely understand. I've had an equipment lift (that I picked up second hand) for a number of years now. Before I got it I was planning with exacting detail how I wanted stuff racked up and wouldn't re-rack stuff just because of the effort involved. Now it's almost too easy! :-) I'm also considering getting a 2nd lift. My current lift is of the counter weight variety (it has a 400lb cast iron weight on the back) which makes it "inconvenient" to move between locations (although I *have* done it). I consider the lift as one of my more necessary pieces of equipment (since I found out about J-bars, that is a close second - but only when I'm moving equipment). TTFN - Guy From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 6 23:39:23 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 00:39:23 -0500 Subject: Lifting heavy rack-mount gear (was Re: PDP-8/e rack questions) In-Reply-To: References: <95838e090901060307ia16512dt69ff5866f7d14425@mail.gmail.com> <20090107020323.GA9735@night.db.net> Message-ID: On Jan 7, 2009, at 12:03 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > IIRC, Sridar has a story or two that, fortunately, I can't top. Yeah, but most of Sridhar's stories involve his gear nearly crushing ME! ;) This is rather severely off-topic, as most of the machines described are pretty new, but I recently offloaded some very heavy gear from a truck onto my driveway by myself. I had no one upon whom to call for assistance, and I was under great time pressure. Here's the saga. (This is mostly a cut-and-paste from an email I sent to Pat Finnegan about a month ago, as this stuff came from his facility.) First came the StorageTek Timberwolf tape juke, being very large and weighing about 700lbs. That's pretty light, compared to the rest of the stuff. I wanted to unload it using the ramp, but the weight coming down the ramp was far more than I could handle myself. I used a ratchet strap hooked to the sides of the truck to lower it a notch at a time. In the end, I ran out of strap and it started rolling on its own, but it only went about eight inches before it was off the ramp...so all was well. I removed all the tape carriers beforehand in an effort to reduce the weight somewhat. I used pieces of wood as safety catches behind the wheels. http://www.neurotica.com/misc/TimberwolfUnload/PICT2103.JPG http://www.neurotica.com/misc/TimberwolfUnload/PICT2104.JPG http://www.neurotica.com/misc/TimberwolfUnload/PICT2105.JPG http://www.neurotica.com/misc/TimberwolfUnload/PICT2106.JPG http://www.neurotica.com/misc/TimberwolfUnload/PICT2107.JPG Next came the Sun Fire 6800s, about 1200lbs/ea...and fragile, expensive, and belonging to someone else. That's pressure. They were laying down on their backs...I pushed, with great difficulty, the rightmost machine off the end of the truck, "catching" it with a ratchet strap configured in a loop of a reasonable length secured to the top frame of the truck. http://www.neurotica.com/misc/SF6800Unload/PICT2109.JPG http://www.neurotica.com/misc/SF6800Unload/PICT2110.JPG http://www.neurotica.com/misc/SF6800Unload/PICT2111.JPG http://www.neurotica.com/misc/SF6800Unload/PICT2112.JPG I lowered it a ratchet notch at a time until the rear/bottom corner was on the driveway, then adjusted the angles a bit, then lowered it onto its wheels. The left machine was sitting across two pallets, and was far more difficult due to wood-on-wood friction with the truck's floor. I jacked the machine up one side at a time in order to remove all remaining rear rack protrusions, then tied the rearmost pallet to one of the between-the-garage-doors columns on my house. I then drove the truck forward, an inch or so at a time, running back every time to check on things, until the rearmost pallet was nearly off the truck. http://www.neurotica.com/misc/SF6800Unload/PICT2120.JPG I then lifted the bottom/rear of the rack up using a loop of ratchet strap in order to remove the pallet. http://www.neurotica.com/misc/SF6800Unload/PICT2121.JPG After that, I lowered it to the ground with a ratchet strap in the same manner as the first machine. The E10K was the last to come off the truck. It was still unbelievably heavy even after the removal of all hot-swappable components...about 900lbs empty. It came down the ramp a ratchet notch at a time in the same manner as the Timberwolf, but this time my friend Ed came by to help, despite being sick. Here he is striking a camped-up pose with the machine midway down the ramp: http://www.neurotica.com/misc/SF6800Unload/PICT2122.JPG So that was that, what a relief. That was a stressful few days, with the bill for the extra truck rental time climbing ever skyward...I was very worried that my new employer (it's their gear) would be pissed about the extra expense, but he was cool with it, seeing that I risked great bodily harm to move gear for the company on short notice. But it was fun. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From tiggerlasv at aim.com Wed Jan 7 00:36:47 2009 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 01:36:47 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/05 returns to life Message-ID: <8CB3EA972EDF248-82C-1BCA@WEBMAIL-MY23.sysops.aol.com> Tobias Russell wrote: > The next challenge will be to get an RX01 disk built > with RT11 on it. I'm planning on making the image with SIMH and then use > vtserver to copy the image onto the RX01 (connected to my 11/73). Does > this sound like a sane approach? I have a faster, albeit slightly convoluted method for getting information between the PC and the PDP. I created a standalone PC from old pieces/parts. This PC is a plain-old PC, with minimal memory, a small disk drive, a Teac FD55-GFR floppy, a generic SCSI controller, and an IDE <> CF adapter. The PC boots plain ol' DOS. I use a compact flash card to move SIMH images back & forth from my real PC to the DOS PC. (This saves ALOT of rebooting.) Using PUTR, I can make bootable RX50's and RX33's. Using John Wilson's ST.EXE (SCSI Tape utility), I can make bootable TK50 / TK70 images, merely by attaching a SCSI TK50 / TK70 to the SCSI controller. Although there are several steps involved in the process, it is infinitely faster than using VTserver, particularly when dealing with larger images. You could easily make a bootable RT11 disk on RX50 or RX33, boot your 11/73 with it, and make your RX01 images from there. That way, if you run into any problems, or want to make changes, you won't have to wait for VTserver to work it's magic. . . (Now, if ST.EXE would work with Exabyte 8mm drives, I'd really be a happy camper !) T From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Wed Jan 7 00:40:26 2009 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 07:40:26 +0100 Subject: Lifting heavy rack-mount gear (was Re: PDP-8/e rack questions) In-Reply-To: References: <95838e090901060307ia16512dt69ff5866f7d14425@mail.gmail.com> <20090107020323.GA9735@night.db.net> Message-ID: > From: mcguire at neurotica.com > Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 00:39:23 -0500 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > CC: > Subject: Re: Lifting heavy rack-mount gear (was Re: PDP-8/e rack questions) > > On Jan 7, 2009, at 12:03 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> IIRC, Sridar has a story or two that, fortunately, I can't top. > > Yeah, but most of Sridhar's stories involve his gear nearly > crushing ME! ;) > > This is rather severely off-topic, as most of the machines > described are pretty new, but I recently offloaded some very heavy > gear from a truck onto my driveway by myself ... snip very nice story with lots of heavy cool pictures :-) > But it was fun. :) > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL Those machines were *just* small enough to go through the opening (standing upright). I bet that you measured the height first! Unloading a truck can be quite a task with this stuff. For that reason I always rent a truck with a hydraulic tail (or what the proper name is for it). But when everythiong is unloaded, yes, the memories are fun. - Henk. From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Jan 7 01:18:58 2009 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 23:18:58 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/05 returns to life In-Reply-To: <8CB3EA972EDF248-82C-1BCA@WEBMAIL-MY23.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CB3EA972EDF248-82C-1BCA@WEBMAIL-MY23.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90901062318v176b4e32s9037fd4435c04ffe@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 10:36 PM, wrote: > > (Now, if ST.EXE would work with Exabyte 8mm drives, > I'd really be a happy camper !) > I briefly tried to use ST.EXE a couple of times without much success. I ended up using a Linux box with an Adaptec 2940 to create 2.11BSD and RSTS/E 8mm install tapes from .TAP files with an Exabyte 8200 8mm drive. I forget exactly how I did that now. I think I started with the 2.11BSD maketape.c code and modified that to work with the Linux box I had setup at the time and use .TAP files as input instead of maketape.dat files. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Jan 7 01:31:12 2009 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 08:31:12 +0100 Subject: Lifting heavy rack-mount gear (was Re: PDP-8/e rack questions) In-Reply-To: References: <95838e090901060307ia16512dt69ff5866f7d14425@mail.gmail.com> <20090107020323.GA9735@night.db.net> Message-ID: <20090107073112.GA15450@Update.UU.SE> Nice pictures, they make me feel like a total amateur having "only" moved a 11/70 (two cabinets) and a Alphaserver(one cabinet). And in both cases used a truck with a lift. > between-the-garage-doors columns on my house. I then drove the truck > forward, an inch or so at a time, running back every time to check on > things, until the rearmost pallet was nearly off the truck. neat trick :) scary one too. > The E10K was the last to come off the truck. It was still > unbelievably heavy even after the removal of all hot-swappable I was not participating myself, but heard some scary stories from when the computer club moved a E10K into the server room. I allways giggle when I see the two very visible dents in the sill from the E10K wheels. Cheers, Pontus. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Jan 7 02:55:36 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 08:55:36 +0000 Subject: KD-11F (11/03) in a BA11-N?? In-Reply-To: <005201c97067$0a841320$1f8c3960$@com> References: <005201c97067$0a841320$1f8c3960$@com> Message-ID: <49646E08.1030904@dunnington.plus.com> On 07/01/2009 01:27, Bob Armstrong wrote: > I have a BA11-N chassis that says "11/03-L" on the front, and the > backplane in it is an H9273-A. I want to get this to work with a 11/03 CPU > (a real KD11-F M7264) but there's something strange about this backplane > that I can't figure out. > > The boards I'm using are the M7264, an M8044 (MSV11-D), M8017 (DLV11-E) > and a BDV11. In a small, 4 slot 11/03 chassis (a BA11-S, I think) No, that'll be a BA11-M, with a H9270 18-bit 4 x 4 serpentine backplane. BA11-S is a box with a H9276 9-slot 22-bit backplane, used for a PDP-11/23plus. > all these > boards work fine together, however in the BA-11N there's no joy. It powers > up, but the processor appears to halt immediately - it never executes the > BDV11 bootstrap. > > But, if I replace the 11/03 CPU in the BA11-N with a 11/23 CPU card, then > everything is fine. So the 11/03 works fine in the BA11-S but not in the > BA11-N, and the 11/23 works fine in the BA11-N. > > It seems fairly likely that there's some kind 16/18/22 bit addressing > issue here, but what's the fix? It must have been possible to use the > KD11-F in the BA11-N, given the 11/03-L designation. Not necessarily, the BA11-N was designed when the dual-height LSI-11/2 (M7270, KD11-H) was used, and then was also used for the 11/23 systems. The issue is not the number of address bits, which won't matter at all. It's that your H9273 backplane is set up for an 11/23 and won't have W2 and W3 inserted, but they need to be for a quad-height M7264 (and only for that board AFAIR, don't insert them if you use a quad-height KDF11-B). > FWIW, the backplane has not been field upgraded with wire wrap to add the > extra address bits. In fact, the H9273-A doesn't even have wire wrap pins > at all - the pins are all cut off right at PCB level. Is this the standard > backplane for a 11/03-L system? I'm wondering if at some time maybe the > whole backplane was replaced with a newer one. No, that's normal for almost all Q-bus backplanes, and you do have the normal backplane for a BA11-N. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Jan 7 05:38:05 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 11:38:05 +0000 Subject: Lifting heavy rack-mount gear (was Re: PDP-8/e rack questions) In-Reply-To: References: <95838e090901060307ia16512dt69ff5866f7d14425@mail.gmail.com> <20090107020323.GA9735@night.db.net> Message-ID: <1231328285.5820.60.camel@elric> On Wed, 2009-01-07 at 00:03 -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote: > When I was younger (in high school), I had a couple of minor incidents > moving big DEC equipment - nothing requiring more than first aid, but > enough to keep me cautious. Now that I'm substantially older, I'm > eyeing that lift as an essential tool - most of my close calls have When I was moving house, I went to load my PDP11/73 onto the van with all the drives racked up. It was a bit heavier than I expected, but it was just a case of rolling it up to the back of the van and then lifting it in as I tipped it backwards. Getting it up two steps at the back door of my new place wasn't as much fun. Oh, and let's not forget the Fujitsu Eagle which has a sticker on it saying "CAUTION: 70kg" - on the bottom! A few years ago I used to carry around 25kg bags of horse feed three at a time. I'm so unfit these days. I should ditch all this computer nonsense and go back to working on a farm... Gordon From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Jan 7 06:03:50 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 07:03:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: Source for SCART connectors in US? Message-ID: Can anyone help me find a supplier for SCART video connectors in the USA? Maplins in UK has them but wants almost $100.00 (!) flat fee for handling on international orders. Are there any UK vendors with their feet on this planet? In a pinch, is there a cctech reader overseas that wouldn't mind being a middleman? I don't want to pay $100.00 for the service, but wouldn't mind a few bucks/pounds for overhead :-). Steve -- From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Wed Jan 7 08:45:57 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 15:45:57 +0100 Subject: Source for SCART connectors in US? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: www.okaphone.nl A dutch based electronics firm who are shipping worldwide. The site is dutch but you can mail them they use paypal. mailto:info at okaphone.nl -Rik > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Steven Hirsch > Verzonden: woensdag 7 januari 2009 13:04 > Aan: Classic Computers Mailing List > Onderwerp: Source for SCART connectors in US? > > Can anyone help me find a supplier for SCART video connectors > in the USA? > Maplins in UK has them but wants almost $100.00 (!) flat fee > for handling on international orders. > > Are there any UK vendors with their feet on this planet? In > a pinch, is there a cctech reader overseas that wouldn't mind > being a middleman? I don't want to pay $100.00 for the > service, but wouldn't mind a few bucks/pounds for overhead :-). > > Steve > > > -- From emu at e-bbes.com Wed Jan 7 08:49:55 2009 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 07:49:55 -0700 Subject: Source for SCART connectors in US? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4964C113.1070000@e-bbes.com> Steven Hirsch wrote: > Can anyone help me find a supplier for SCART video connectors in the > USA? I'm actually glad I didn't have to deal with this crap here, but anyway ... > Maplins in UK has them but wants almost $100.00 (!) flat fee for > handling on international orders. Mouser and Futureelectronics have them for $1.95, but no stock. Did you try to get a lead time on them ? Another idea is, to get some of the converter boxes and desolder it if you need it fast. Check Newark for that, they have them in stock. And if you really desperate and can wait, I could get you one in Europe when I'm there again. Cheers From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Jan 7 08:51:21 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 08:51:21 -0600 Subject: Lifting heavy rack-mount gear (was Re: PDP-8/e rack questions) In-Reply-To: References: <95838e090901060307ia16512dt69ff5866f7d14425@mail.gmail.com> <20090107020323.GA9735@night.db.net> Message-ID: <4964C169.1090303@gmail.com> Henk Gooijen wrote: > Unloading a truck can be quite a task with this stuff. For that > reason I always rent a truck with a hydraulic tail (or what the > proper name is for it). We used to do that a lot for museum stuff - but the problem there is that some of the bigger machine cabinets only fit on the tail-lift with an inch or so to spare - we were always paranoid that one was going to just drop straight off the back. Ramps seem a bit better *if* you've got the necessary cables/straps to safely cope with the distance/weight. (I'm having the reverse to the unloading issue right now - we've got a huge cabinet in the basement of our house that I want to get back up to ground level, and working against gravity rather than with it is a major pain!) cheers Jules From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jan 7 09:07:47 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 10:07:47 -0500 Subject: Lifting heavy rack-mount gear (was Re: PDP-8/e rack questions) In-Reply-To: <4964C169.1090303@gmail.com> References: <95838e090901060307ia16512dt69ff5866f7d14425@mail.gmail.com> <20090107020323.GA9735@night.db.net> <4964C169.1090303@gmail.com> Message-ID: > We used to do that a lot for museum stuff - but the problem there is that > some of the bigger machine cabinets only fit on the tail-lift with an inch > or so to spare - we were always paranoid that one was going to just drop > straight off the back. This can be scary, but there are a couple of tricks to use. One, if the liftgate has chains that go up at an angle from the back of the liftgate to a few feetup each side of the back of the truck, one can stick a board or load brace across the liftgate platform just against where the chains meet the platform. If the load starts to roll down the platform, it will hit this and stop. Or, two, simply strap the load down to the platform, all the way around, just remembering to strap it so the latch is to the side and not pinned down when the platform is on the ground. > Ramps seem a bit better *if* you've got the necessary cables/straps to > safely cope with the distance/weight. I never use ramps anymore, unless the load consists of small things. And Dave REALLY needs to invest in some cumalongs. -- Will From bob at jfcl.com Wed Jan 7 09:46:21 2009 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 07:46:21 -0800 Subject: KD-11F (11/03) in a BA11-N?? Message-ID: <002a01c970df$168f5580$43ae0080$@com> >Pete Turnbull (pete at dunnington.plus.com) wrote: >No, that'll be a BA11-M ... Oopss. Sorry. >The issue is not the number of address bits, which won't matter at all. That's what I was hoping, but there's one thing I don't understand - the LSI11 CPU only drives 16 address bits, but some of the option cards (e.g. DLV11-E) and the MSV11 memory decode 18 address bits. It's not sufficient to simply pull the upper two address bits to always be zeros or ones - the upper two address bits have to be zeros (for the memories) when the CPU outputs an address in the range 000000..157777, and ones (for the I/O cards) when the CPU outputs an address from 160000..177777. It's not a difficult problem, but where is the logic to do this? It's not on the LSI11 card, since those extra address bits weren't even defined in the QBUS when this card was made. > It's that your H9273 backplane is set up for an 11/23 and won't have >W2 and W3 inserted, but they need to be for a quad-height M7264 ... Actually the BA11-N H9273 does have W2 and W3 installed - according to the Microcomputers and Memories handbook, those are supposed to be installed if the CPU is in slot one, and removed if there's no CPU (i.e. for an expansion box). It doesn't actually say anything about which model CPU, but in any case they are installed on mine. Do they need to be _removed_ for an M7264? So is W1 (installed) for that matter, which I think controls the LTC. Thanks, Bob From bob at jfcl.com Wed Jan 7 09:54:30 2009 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 07:54:30 -0800 Subject: H9273 backplane wiring (was KD-11F (11/03) in a BA11-N?? ) Message-ID: <002b01c970e0$3a451180$aecf3480$@com> >tiggerlasv (tiggerlasv at aim.com) wrote: >The BA11-N user guide can be found here: >http://vt100.net/mirror/antonio/ba11nug1.pdf Thanks - I guess I should have done this first :-) Actually it says pretty much what I expected except for figure 1-9 on page 1-8. This shows that slots 4 and 6 in the H9273 are wired differently (it implies that they have no QBUS connection!) from the adjacent slots. That seems hard to believe - can that really be true?? Were these slots reserved only for things like the second card in the RLV11? Another question - this diagram implies that the BDV11 is always in the bottom slot regardless of how many cards you have. Is that correct? Do you need grant continuity cards then for all the empty slots? Other than that, table 2-1 describes the jumpers and it looks like it says pretty much the same thing as the Microcomputers and Interfaces handbook - W2 and W3 are inserted for the first chassis, and removed for an expansion chassis. It doesn't look like any of the front panel jumpers would be affected by the type of the CPU card. Thanks again, Bob From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jan 7 10:27:22 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 11:27:22 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/e rack questions In-Reply-To: <4963EAC0.1090408@nktelco.net> References: <49627B4E.3080606@update.uu.se> <4963EAC0.1090408@nktelco.net> Message-ID: On Jan 6, 2009, at 6:35 PM, Charles H Dickman wrote: >> Every rack-mounted PDP-8/e I've seen has had slides like this. >> These slides were made by ChassisTrak. >> > Actually General Devices in Indianapolis, Indiana, USA and they are > still around. > > www.gendevco.com So ChassisTrak is the model or line name, then? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jan 7 10:31:14 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 11:31:14 -0500 Subject: Lifting heavy rack-mount gear (was Re: PDP-8/e rack questions) In-Reply-To: References: <95838e090901060307ia16512dt69ff5866f7d14425@mail.gmail.com> <20090107020323.GA9735@night.db.net> Message-ID: <3B7F71B3-1E60-43DD-8799-65E0AFDD2EB4@neurotica.com> On Jan 7, 2009, at 1:40 AM, Henk Gooijen wrote: >> On Jan 7, 2009, at 12:03 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> IIRC, Sridar has a story or two that, fortunately, I can't top. >> >> Yeah, but most of Sridhar's stories involve his gear nearly >> crushing ME! ;) >> >> This is rather severely off-topic, as most of the machines >> described are pretty new, but I recently offloaded some very heavy >> gear from a truck onto my driveway by myself > > ... snip very nice story with lots of heavy cool pictures :-) Thanks! These didn't actually have anything to do with Sridhar, despite the context...should've mentioned that earlier. > Those machines were *just* small enough to go through the opening > (standing upright). I bet that you measured the height first! > Unloading a truck can be quite a task with this stuff. For that > reason I always rent a truck with a hydraulic tail (or what the > proper name is for it). > But when everythiong is unloaded, yes, the memories are fun. I neglected to mention that I flew from Florida to Chicago to pick up that truck as a one-way rental, and the people in Chicago gave me a rear door height measurement that was inaccurate by about six inches. Pat and I were quite pissed to find that the truck was actually too short to accommodate the Sun Fire 6800s, and we had to lay them down. The other gear (including the E10K) is shorter, though, and that stuff did fit. Also, I was unable to find a truck with a lift gate for a one-way rental, so this was the only real option. The upside is, now I look like a god to my new employer. ;) He has moved a lot of very high- end gear so he knows the difficulties involved. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jan 7 10:34:23 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 11:34:23 -0500 Subject: Lifting heavy rack-mount gear (was Re: PDP-8/e rack questions) In-Reply-To: <20090107073112.GA15450@Update.UU.SE> References: <95838e090901060307ia16512dt69ff5866f7d14425@mail.gmail.com> <20090107020323.GA9735@night.db.net> <20090107073112.GA15450@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Jan 7, 2009, at 2:31 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Nice pictures, they make me feel like a total amateur having "only" > moved a 11/70 (two cabinets) and a Alphaserver(one cabinet). And in > both > cases used a truck with a lift. Those lifts are nice sometimes, but they are not without their problems. Most of them have a very steep ramp of about 3-4" at the very edge that big racks have trouble with. Also, they "jerk" when motion starts...cranking down the racks' feet or strapping them down is a must. >> between-the-garage-doors columns on my house. I then drove the truck >> forward, an inch or so at a time, running back every time to check on >> things, until the rearmost pallet was nearly off the truck. > > neat trick :) scary one too. Yes, I was worried for a while. I laughed aloud when it was done, though. I must've looked like a nut...standing there in my driveway all alone, soaked with sweat, surrounded by a few $mil worth of huge computers, laughing.. >> The E10K was the last to come off the truck. It was still >> unbelievably heavy even after the removal of all hot-swappable > > I was not participating myself, but heard some scary stories from when > the computer club moved a E10K into the server room. I allways giggle > when I see the two very visible dents in the sill from the E10K > wheels. They certainly leave their mark! :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jan 7 10:37:19 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 11:37:19 -0500 Subject: Lifting heavy rack-mount gear (was Re: PDP-8/e rack questions) In-Reply-To: References: <95838e090901060307ia16512dt69ff5866f7d14425@mail.gmail.com> <20090107020323.GA9735@night.db.net> <4964C169.1090303@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1AE3396B-E1BB-4E16-BD5D-71511A9627B0@neurotica.com> On Jan 7, 2009, at 10:07 AM, William Donzelli wrote: > And Dave REALLY needs to invest in some cumalongs. Yes, most definitely. This time, I was broke and out of time. But, those ratchet straps worked surprisingly well for the oh-so- wrong tasks I put them to! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Jan 7 10:38:27 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 08:38:27 -0800 Subject: Lifting heavy rack-mount gear (was Re: PDP-8/e rack questions) In-Reply-To: <4964C169.1090303@gmail.com> References: <95838e090901060307ia16512dt69ff5866f7d14425@mail.gmail.com> <20090107020323.GA9735@night.db.net> , <4964C169.1090303@gmail.com> Message-ID: Not as dramatic as some other stories on this thread, I recall when I acquired my 11/34. I'd specified a truck with a lift gate - and arrived at the rental agency (Enterprise - to be avoided!) to find a ramp truck. The person from who I was acquiring the machine (plus a dozen terminals and a boatload of documentation) was moving out of area and that day was my only opportunity to do the pick-up, so I couldn't just reschedule. When I picked up the machine, I was aided by its former owner and his father; the latter gentleman had worked as a longshoreman and knew all the tricks. Plus, we were pushing this six-foot rack (with the processor and two RK05 drives) UP the ramp. As it happened, my brother-in-law was visiting that day and I drafted him to help me unload - which meant bringing that six-foot rack DOWN the ramp. It wasn't pretty. Then, to get it up the two steps from my garage into my basement, we laid it over on its back and slid it, then stood it up again. I wonder why my brother-in-law rarely visits anymore? :-) -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules Richardson [jules.richardson99 at gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 6:51 AM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Lifting heavy rack-mount gear (was Re: PDP-8/e rack questions) Henk Gooijen wrote: > Unloading a truck can be quite a task with this stuff. For that > reason I always rent a truck with a hydraulic tail (or what the > proper name is for it). We used to do that a lot for museum stuff - but the problem there is that some of the bigger machine cabinets only fit on the tail-lift with an inch or so to spare - we were always paranoid that one was going to just drop straight off the back. Ramps seem a bit better *if* you've got the necessary cables/straps to safely cope with the distance/weight. (I'm having the reverse to the unloading issue right now - we've got a huge cabinet in the basement of our house that I want to get back up to ground level, and working against gravity rather than with it is a major pain!) cheers Jules From steve at cosam.org Wed Jan 7 11:03:18 2009 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 18:03:18 +0100 Subject: Lifting heavy rack-mount gear (was Re: PDP-8/e rack questions) In-Reply-To: References: <95838e090901060307ia16512dt69ff5866f7d14425@mail.gmail.com> <20090107020323.GA9735@night.db.net> <20090107073112.GA15450@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <95838e090901070903w186eefe8sa35f7ff79a6a6b22@mail.gmail.com> 2009/1/7 Dave McGuire : > On Jan 7, 2009, at 2:31 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> Nice pictures, they make me feel like a total amateur having "only" >> moved a 11/70 (two cabinets) and a Alphaserver(one cabinet). And in both >> cases used a truck with a lift. > > Those lifts are nice sometimes, but they are not without their problems. > Most of them have a very steep ramp of about 3-4" at the very edge that big > racks have trouble with. > It's either that or, like I had last time, the lift itself is essentially one big ramp. Having successfully rolled two H960s off the truck alone, I figured I'd finally had an "event-free" haul. Unfortunately the kit in the third and final rack was heavier than the other two combined... I ended up resorting to a variant on that ratchet strap method to slowly inch the thing down the lift/ramp to level-ish ground. I know it can't have been that long ago as the lovely maroon reminder under my big toe nail still hasn't grown out yet ;-) -- Steve Maddison http://www.cosam.org/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jan 7 11:19:32 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 12:19:32 -0500 Subject: Lifting heavy rack-mount gear (was Re: PDP-8/e rack questions) In-Reply-To: References: <95838e090901060307ia16512dt69ff5866f7d14425@mail.gmail.com> <20090107020323.GA9735@night.db.net> <4964C169.1090303@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Not as dramatic as some other stories on this thread, I recall when I acquired my 11/34. I'd specified a truck with a lift gate - and arrived at the rental agency (Enterprise - to be avoided!) to find a ramp truck. The basic rule of thumb is not to be cheap with rental trucks. Pretty much avoid all of the consumer grade deals (Uhaul, Enterprise, etc.) and go straight for the commercial deals. The pricing schemes are a little different (sometimes less!), and you have to show that you are a business with some sort of official looking business paper to sign up, but pretty much everything is in tip top condition with no screwups. I use Ryder Commercial Services, and have been very pleased. -- Will From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Jan 7 11:38:25 2009 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 12:38:25 -0500 Subject: got netbsd 2.0.3 to boot on 11/730 in sim Message-ID: <7633.1231349905@mini> The vax unix nerds on the list might find this mildly interesting: I hacked a copy of simh vax780 to look like a vax 11/730. I made a modified version of the standalone netbsd "boot" program which does nfs loads from a deuna (it will do copy's too, which is handy at times) With that I finished debugging netbsd 2.0.3 on the 730. I've gotten it to boot to a shell prompt on a simh 11/730 with 4mb of memory using an nfs root. woo hoo! So, next I'll make a disk image and put my unibus scsi card in my real 730 and debug that. With any luck it will just work. Once it's going on real hardware I'll get it going on the latest netbsd (4.0?) and get a patch back to the netbsd/vax maintainer. [for those who care, I use a linux program which simulates the tu58 to boot my 730. I made a boot tape image with putr which contains the netbsd boot program (as well as the other files needed to load microcode, etc). I plan to spend some time and make a linux program which will put together valid tu58 tape images, just to make my life easier, since putr requires DOS.] I have to give the netbsd folks a lot of credit. Their posix build system is very handy. But note that releases before 2.0.3 will *NOT* build on a posix machine - they require native netbsd to build cleanly. I've always had a soft spot for the 730; maybe because the 780 was just too damn big! :-) -brad From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 7 12:28:23 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 10:28:23 -0800 Subject: got netbsd 2.0.3 to boot on 11/730 in sim In-Reply-To: <7633.1231349905@mini> References: <7633.1231349905@mini> Message-ID: <496483C7.17424.577EEC0@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Jan 2009 at 12:38, Brad Parker wrote: > I've always had a soft spot for the 730; maybe because the 780 was > just too damn big! :-) I can recall doing a price-performance analysis of VAXen around 1983 or so. My conclusion was that the 750 was the most bang for the buck and that the 730 was pretty underpowered for the money. Just curious if this was really the case. At any rate, we were pretty happy with the 750. Cheers, Chuck From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Jan 7 12:25:02 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 18:25:02 +0000 Subject: H9273 backplane wiring (was KD-11F (11/03) in a BA11-N?? ) In-Reply-To: <002b01c970e0$3a451180$aecf3480$@com> References: <002b01c970e0$3a451180$aecf3480$@com> Message-ID: <4964F37E.5030606@dunnington.plus.com> On 07/01/2009 15:54, Bob Armstrong wrote: >> tiggerlasv (tiggerlasv at aim.com) wrote: > >> The BA11-N user guide can be found here: >> http://vt100.net/mirror/antonio/ba11nug1.pdf > > Thanks - I guess I should have done this first :-) > > Actually it says pretty much what I expected except for figure 1-9 on page > 1-8. This shows that slots 4 and 6 in the H9273 are wired differently (it > implies that they have no QBUS connection!) from the adjacent slots. That > seems hard to believe - can that really be true?? Were these slots reserved > only for things like the second card in the RLV11? It isn't true. The diagram is just examples; all the slots except slot 1 are identical[1]. The RLV11, as a two-board set, uses the CD interconnect to communicate and will work in any two adjacent slots in a straight (not serpentine!) backplane. [1] The SRUN L signal which lights the RUN LED is connected to the panel only from slot 1, for example. > Another question - this diagram implies that the BDV11 is always in the > bottom slot regardless of how many cards you have. Is that correct? Do you > need grant continuity cards then for all the empty slots? No, it's usually in the bottom slot (for optimum termination of the bus). There are places you do need grant continuity cards in a QBus system, but that's not one of them. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Jan 7 12:25:05 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 18:25:05 +0000 Subject: KD-11F (11/03) in a BA11-N?? In-Reply-To: <002a01c970df$168f5580$43ae0080$@com> References: <002a01c970df$168f5580$43ae0080$@com> Message-ID: <4964F381.2040707@dunnington.plus.com> On 07/01/2009 15:46, Bob Armstrong wrote: >> Pete Turnbull (pete at dunnington.plus.com) wrote: >> No, that'll be a BA11-M ... > > Oopss. Sorry. Forgiven :-) >> The issue is not the number of address bits, which won't matter at all. > > That's what I was hoping, but there's one thing I don't understand - the > LSI11 CPU only drives 16 address bits, but some of the option cards (e.g. > DLV11-E) and the MSV11 memory decode 18 address bits. It's not sufficient > to simply pull the upper two address bits to always be zeros or ones - the > upper two address bits have to be zeros (for the memories) when the CPU > outputs an address in the range 000000..157777, and ones (for the I/O cards) > when the CPU outputs an address from 160000..177777. It's not a difficult > problem, but where is the logic to do this? It's not on the LSI11 card, > since those extra address bits weren't even defined in the QBUS when this > card was made. Actually it *is* on the card, just not in the form you might expect. All I/O page access on a QBus is controlled by a separate signal called BBS7 (Bus Bank Select 7) and I/O page devices respond to that being asserted, not by actually decoding the upper address bits (which they ignore). However, a consequence of that is that cards which do decode 18 address bits (like an MSV11-D) is that they may respond to addresses which are in the I/O page in a 16-bit system -- in other words, a 64KB (32KW) MSV11-D with a base address of 000000(8) responds to all addresses from 000000(8) to 177777(8). It has a jumper to disable the top page. Maybe you need to do that? >> It's that your H9273 backplane is set up for an 11/23 and won't have >> W2 and W3 inserted, but they need to be for a quad-height M7264 ... > > Actually the BA11-N H9273 does have W2 and W3 installed - according to the > Microcomputers and Memories handbook, those are supposed to be installed if > the CPU is in slot one, and removed if there's no CPU (i.e. for an expansion > box). It doesn't actually say anything about which model CPU, but in any > case they are installed on mine. Do they need to be _removed_ for an M7264? No, they don't need to be removed, but they should normally only be installed for a quad CPU. They connect two fingers on the upper side of section C to the corresponding fingers on the lower side. > So is W1 (installed) for that matter, which I think controls the LTC. Yes, that's right (and normal), though it should be removed in all but the last box in a multi-box setup. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Jan 7 13:18:57 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 11:18:57 -0800 Subject: got netbsd 2.0.3 to boot on 11/730 in sim In-Reply-To: <7633.1231349905@mini> References: <7633.1231349905@mini> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brad Parker > Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 9:38 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: got netbsd 2.0.3 to boot on 11/730 in sim > > > The vax unix nerds on the list might find this mildly interesting: > > I hacked a copy of simh vax780 to look like a vax 11/730. I made a > modified version of the standalone netbsd "boot" program which does nfs > loads from a deuna (it will do copy's too, which is handy at times) > > With that I finished debugging netbsd 2.0.3 on the 730. I've gotten it > to boot to a shell prompt on a simh 11/730 with 4mb of memory using an > nfs root. woo hoo! > Very cool - congrats! [snip] > > I've always had a soft spot for the 730; maybe because the 780 was > just too damn big! :-) > [snip] Too big? C'mon, it's only 1200 lbs. (550 kg) or so.... As an interesting coincidence, I just got a VAX-11/780-5 to boot into VMS (yesterday!). After doing a careful restoration of the potentially broken bits (power supplies and such), I got the machine running diagnostics. N.B.: you need to be sure to have the *right* diagnostics for your machine and its components. Just because the diskette says it's a diagnostic for an 11/785 doesn't mean it will match your hardware. The available literature on the versioning leaves something to be desired; I think DEC assumed they'd give you a set of floppies matched to your machine and you'd be happy evermore. (If you're undertaking this and want to know more about what I learned, please drop me an email.) Getting VMS going was a challenge because of peripherals. The machine has a RH780, but we are using our RP06s on our PDP-10s; our RP07s all need restoration; and we don't have enough power in the room where the VAX lives to run one. The machine also has a CI780, so I suggested using a hierarchical storage controller. We briefly considered a HSC, but decided against investing in RA drives. :-) So we picked up an HSJ50 from PSDS in Woodinville, Washington - really great people for old DEC stuff. They built it out for us with a full complement of RZ29s in Storageworks shelves - which was a mixed blessing.... When we decided to go the HSJ route, I figured we'd have a controller, perhaps a single shelf and then be able to plug in a CDROM and/or magtape drive into the unused ports. The system PSDS built for us is FULLY built out, with six shelves and RAID arrays done properly - vertically, across the shelves. So I had no free ports. I tried a couple of simple ideas, not wanting to completely disassemble the system, but I was facing the idea of restructuring the RAID arrays to free up a shelf, unplugging that shelf from the HSJ and plugging in the CDROM. Yuck. What I ended up doing was easier and worked out well. I used a MicroVAX (3100) setup with a single Storageworks shelf and a CDROM drive. I booted the MicroVAX into standalone backup and restored the install save set onto an RZ29; I also copied the entire CD onto another RZ. I reduced a couple of RAID storagesets on the HSJ, installed the RZs from the MicroVAX and was able to boot from then! There was one interesting bit of learning curve on this. I was unable to get standalone backup to boot on the VAX-11/780-5, despite having a set of disks for that purpose: the VAX-11 never 'saw' the stuff on the HSJ. I verified that CI was working correctly (while SABU was running I disabled the CI ports at the HSJ and SABU complained), but still couldn't access devices. So I tried simply booting, using CIBOO.CMD on the console disk. One challenge was figuring out the device number: R2 contains the CI node(s) and R3 contains the unit number at that node (or in the case of our dual-redundant setup, nodes). It wasn't clear what that number would be: SCSI ID, shelf ID, some conflation of the two? I finally figured out something that wasn't clear from the HSJ documentation: the unit IDs are NOT arbitrary labels. Keep in mind that disks are represented as: disk(s) ---> storageset (RAID, mirror, etc.) ---> unit When I received the storage system, things were set up with disk IDs like DISK100, representing shelf 1, SCSI ID 0, LUN 0; RAID IDs like R0, R1, etc.; and unit IDs of D0, D1 and so forth. After some futzing, I figured out: the unit ID numbers (digits) ARE the IDs to be deposited in the VAX-11's R3 register. So to boot D6 (one of the single-disk units I'd added), R3 <-- 6. Happy dance! So I'm going to rebuild the RAID arrays with full membership and install onto one. I'm going to have more storage than a VAX-11 knows what to do with. :-) And once that's all done, I have a VAX-11/785 that's still ill - yes, we have TWO. Is that cool or what? Cheers -- Ian From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 7 13:18:49 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 19:18:49 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PDP-11/05 returns to life In-Reply-To: <1231279827.6447.97.camel@spasmo> from "Tobias Russell" at Jan 6, 9 10:10:27 pm Message-ID: > With the onboard console, how hard is it to build a device to convert > current loop into RS232 levels? Not very difficult. You cna really cheat and grab TTL level signals off the pins of the UART (I don't think they're brought out on the connector, but you might want to check!) or slightly cheat and examine the current loop circuit and figure you you don't _have_ to use it as a current loop, there are significant voltage swings too,. That means your converter will only wrok with an 11/05, not any old current loop device, but that's not a problem -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 7 13:36:16 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 19:36:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Source for SCART connectors in US? In-Reply-To: from "Steven Hirsch" at Jan 7, 9 07:03:50 am Message-ID: > > Can anyone help me find a supplier for SCART video connectors in the USA? > Maplins in UK has them but wants almost $100.00 (!) flat fee for handling > on international orders. I've not looked, but I would think Farnell would have them (http://www.farnell.com). Now, they probably have a flat fee for things orderd in the US (in the UK we have to pay a flat fee of \pounds 15.95 per order for 'extended range' items from the US), but it may be more easonable that Maplins. What connectors do you want? Plugs, socksts, cables? -tony From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jan 7 13:45:13 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 11:45:13 -0800 Subject: Preserving directory times on mirrors created with wget Message-ID: <49650649.1090201@bitsavers.org> General question about mirroring with wget that has been driving me crazy for a couple of days. My mirror of bitsavers is maintained using wget to my local work machine. Over the break, I switched to 10.5 of OS X, and got the latest darwin port of wget. In the version I had been running, directory dates were maintained drwxr-xr-x 9 aek staff 264 Nov 23 2006 . drwxr-xr-x 380 aek staff 12876 Jan 3 09:02 .. -rw-r--r-- 1 aek staff 479 Dec 19 10:54 .listing -rw-r--r-- 1 aek staff 3835317 Mar 3 2004 M-4660_IOU-40_Jun79.pdf -rw-r--r-- 1 aek staff 8160815 Mar 3 2004 M-4908_Q30cpuTech_1983.pdf note the directory date is Nov 2006 even though the .listing was from 2008 using the same command (wget -m -np ftp://...) I now get drwxrwxr-x 2 pdp1 pdp1 4096 Jan 7 11:41 . drwxrwxr-x 3 pdp1 pdp1 4096 Jan 7 11:37 .. -rw-rw-r-- 1 pdp1 pdp1 479 Jan 7 11:37 .listing -rw-rw-r-- 1 pdp1 pdp1 3835317 Mar 3 2004 M-4660_IOU-40_Jun79.pdf -rw-rw-r-- 1 pdp1 pdp1 8160815 Mar 3 2004 M-4908_Q30cpuTech_1983.pdf I remember having a hell of a time finding a version that had the correct directory behavior, and now I've forgotten what I had done to get it to work. Anyone recognize this? From db at db.net Wed Jan 7 13:50:21 2009 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 14:50:21 -0500 Subject: Lifting heavy rack-mount gear (was Re: PDP-8/e rack questions) In-Reply-To: References: <95838e090901060307ia16512dt69ff5866f7d14425@mail.gmail.com> <20090107020323.GA9735@night.db.net> <20090107073112.GA15450@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20090107195021.GA25802@night.db.net> On Wed, Jan 07, 2009 at 11:34:23AM -0500, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jan 7, 2009, at 2:31 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > >Nice pictures, they make me feel like a total amateur having "only" ... Well, in a pinch I suppose a piece of rope could take the place of a belt like the professionals use. I simply wanted to make sure no one here lost a finger. I suppose there is a proper professional name for those belts? ;-) I'd use some 2x4 and some very strong rope instead of putting my fingers under a rack. > >I was not participating myself, but heard some scary stories from when > >the computer club moved a E10K into the server room. I allways giggle > >when I see the two very visible dents in the sill from the E10K > >wheels. I suppose I shouldn't mention the night I helped a friend move some old computer rack into his basement apartment at 2am. I bet there are still pieces of missing concrete, from the steps on those stairs as we dropped the rack step by step... (*WHAM* *WHAM*) > They certainly leave their mark! :-) Really? :-) > -Dave - Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Wed Jan 7 14:02:30 2009 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 14:02:30 -0600 (CST) Subject: SGI Visualisation Systems... Good for Maya and what else? In-Reply-To: <20090107195021.GA25802@night.db.net> Message-ID: I have a small SGI collection (a dozen and counting, including the Onyx2, Origin 2000 rack and rack Onyx 10000) and, to be honest, I mostly collect them because... well, they look cool, and when I was in a position where I couldn't collect (a. New Zealand, b. No space) I drooled over them. I was asked recently what my Onyx rack was good for. And it occurred to me beyond the easy answer of "running Maya"... I wasn't really sure. So, if you used one of these bigger machines in production (particularly the Onyx, Onyx2, etc graphics "Visualisation" systems)... I'd sure love to know what -you- used it for. (Both of my Onyxes came from Boeing, the rack has a rather wicked looking custom built VME card... but I've got no clue what it was really used for) Thanks all; - JP From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Wed Jan 7 14:04:58 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 15:04:58 -0500 Subject: Preserving directory times on mirrors created with wget References: <49650649.1090201@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <18789.2794.992878.675520@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Al" == Al Kossow writes: Al> General question about mirroring with wget that has been driving Al> me crazy for a couple of days. Al> My mirror of bitsavers is maintained using wget to my local work Al> machine. Al> Over the break, I switched to 10.5 of OS X, and got the latest Al> darwin port of wget. Al> In the version I had been running, directory dates were Al> maintained Al> ...using the same command (wget -m -np ftp://...) I now get Al> drwxrwxr-x 2 pdp1 pdp1 4096 Jan 7 11:41 . drwxrwxr-x 3 pdp1 pdp1 Al> 4096 Jan 7 11:37 .. -rw-rw-r-- 1 pdp1 pdp1 479 Jan 7 11:37 Al> .listing -rw-rw-r-- 1 pdp1 pdp1 3835317 Mar 3 2004 Al> M-4660_IOU-40_Jun79.pdf -rw-rw-r-- 1 pdp1 pdp1 8160815 Mar 3 2004 Al> M-4908_Q30cpuTech_1983.pdf Al> I remember having a hell of a time finding a version that had the Al> correct directory behavior, and now I've forgotten what I had Al> done to get it to work. Al> Anyone recognize this? No, but I just tried it on my 10.5 system where I installed wget 1.11.4. I don't remember how; most likely I built it from source since I don't like Fink at all. It works as expected: -m is documented to do the right thing and indeed it does. paul From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Jan 7 14:44:59 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 14:44:59 -0600 Subject: SGI Visualisation Systems... Good for Maya and what else? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4965144B.3030308@gmail.com> JP Hindin wrote: > I have a small SGI collection (a dozen and counting, including the Onyx2, > Origin 2000 rack and rack Onyx 10000) and, to be honest, I mostly collect > them because... well, they look cool, and when I was in a position where I > couldn't collect (a. New Zealand, b. No space) I drooled over them. Weta Digital in NZ had *masses* of SGI kit - wandering around their machine room was fun. I wonder if it's still all there... probably been ditched for a load of PCs by now :-( I'd love a big SGI - Indy/Indigo/4D machines seem reasonably plentiful (for purchase+shipping costs at least) but the big stuff seems pretty rare (& uneconomical to move long distances) cheers Jules From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Wed Jan 7 15:02:49 2009 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 15:02:49 -0600 (CST) Subject: SGI Visualisation Systems... Good for Maya and what else? In-Reply-To: <4965144B.3030308@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Jan 2009, Jules Richardson wrote: > JP Hindin wrote: > > I have a small SGI collection (a dozen and counting, including the Onyx2, > > Origin 2000 rack and rack Onyx 10000) and, to be honest, I mostly collect > > them because... well, they look cool, and when I was in a position where I > > couldn't collect (a. New Zealand, b. No space) I drooled over them. > > Weta Digital in NZ had *masses* of SGI kit - wandering around their machine > room was fun. I wonder if it's still all there... probably been ditched for a > load of PCs by now :-( I lived about 5 minutes from Camperdown where Weta lived. (I actually lived in the same suburb as Peter Jackson, so I saw him weekly at the shops and stuff) Curious you mention them. I only ever remember seeing O2s, Indigo2s and similar (many moons ago, mind you). From recollection they only ever used 1U PCs for their renderwall. I'm sure that'd been replaced by blades now. I don't remember seeing any big SGIs... but that is hardly conclusive. > I'd love a big SGI - Indy/Indigo/4D machines seem reasonably plentiful (for > purchase+shipping costs at least) but the big stuff seems pretty rare (& > uneconomical to move long distances) I'm unsure where you're at - but I picked all of mine up from the Boeing surplus in Missouri. They're selling them cheaper than dirt... (how about a pallet of four Onyx2 desksides for $25? Or an Origin3000 for $100?) - JP From frustum at pacbell.net Wed Jan 7 15:31:15 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 15:31:15 -0600 Subject: more housecleaning -- floppy disk manuals Message-ID: <49651F23.9010504@pacbell.net> For the cost of shipping from Austin, TX. All are originals, except where noted. If any of these aren't yet scanned, I'd be happy to donate them to someone who would scan them. I'm more interested in shipping the bunch than splitting them up. SA850/851 Double Sided Diskette Storage Drive OEM Manual SA850/851 Double Sided Diskette Storage Drive Service Manual SA810/860 Single/Double Sided Half-Height Diskette Storage Drives OEM Manual (copy) SA800/801 Illustrated Parts Catalog SA800/801 Diskette Storage Drive Theory of Operations SA800/801 Diskette Storage Drive Maintenance Manual SA800/801 Diskette Storage Drive OEM Manual SA400 minifloppy Diskette Storage Drive OEM Manual SA400 minifloppy Diskette Storage Drive Service Manual Tandon OEM Operating and Service Manual TM-100-1 and -2 Disk drives 48 TPI Tandon Product Specifications Mini Double Sided Recording Flexible Disk Drive Model TM100-4 96 TPI DSR Tandon TM 100 DIsk Drive OPerating & Service Manual Tandon TM100-1 and TM100-2 Disk Drives 48 TPI Service Manual Tandon TM100 Disk Drive 96/100 TPI Operating & Service Manual (copy) From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Jan 7 16:07:03 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 16:07:03 -0600 Subject: SGI Visualisation Systems... Good for Maya and what else? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49652787.2050503@gmail.com> JP Hindin wrote: > > On Wed, 7 Jan 2009, Jules Richardson wrote: >> JP Hindin wrote: >>> I have a small SGI collection (a dozen and counting, including the Onyx2, >>> Origin 2000 rack and rack Onyx 10000) and, to be honest, I mostly collect >>> them because... well, they look cool, and when I was in a position where I >>> couldn't collect (a. New Zealand, b. No space) I drooled over them. >> Weta Digital in NZ had *masses* of SGI kit - wandering around their machine >> room was fun. I wonder if it's still all there... probably been ditched for a >> load of PCs by now :-( > > I lived about 5 minutes from Camperdown where Weta lived. (I actually > lived in the same suburb as Peter Jackson, so I saw him weekly at the > shops and stuff) > > Curious you mention them. I only ever remember seeing O2s, Indigo2s and > similar (many moons ago, mind you). From recollection they only ever used > 1U PCs for their renderwall. I'm sure that'd been replaced by blades now. > I don't remember seeing any big SGIs... but that is hardly conclusive. Well I went to see them there circa 2000 - their machine room was *full* of dual-height racks with mostly O2k systems, plus a few cabs of graphics hardware (although I don't recall exactly what now) and others just stuffed with disks. I don't remember what they had for desktop systems now, whether those were SGI or just stock PCs... There was definitely no PC renderfarm at that point in time. Oh, ISTR that NIWA had some SGI stuff alongside their Cray at their Wellington site, too - I suspect that might still be there as most people investing in anything that requires a Cray probably hang onto it for a while :-) >> I'd love a big SGI - Indy/Indigo/4D machines seem reasonably plentiful (for >> purchase+shipping costs at least) but the big stuff seems pretty rare (& >> uneconomical to move long distances) > > I'm unsure where you're at - but I picked all of mine up from the Boeing > surplus in Missouri. They're selling them cheaper than dirt... (how about > a pallet of four Onyx2 desksides for $25? Or an Origin3000 for $100?) Middle of Minnesota - there's absolutely nothing up here that needs anything more powerful than an office with a few PCs in it, sadly. I'm not even sure what there might be down in Minneapolis - it's not exactly heavy computing territory (although of course 3M have their roots here, so maybe there are still a few gems tucked away down that way) cheers Jules From frustum at pacbell.net Wed Jan 7 16:29:05 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 16:29:05 -0600 Subject: more housecleaning -- floppy disk manuals In-Reply-To: <49651F23.9010504@pacbell.net> References: <49651F23.9010504@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <49652CB1.1050400@pacbell.net> Jim Battle wrote: > For the cost of shipping from Austin, TX. All are originals, except > where noted. If any of these aren't yet scanned, I'd be happy to donate > them to someone who would scan them. I'm more interested in shipping the > bunch than splitting them up. They are claimed. From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Jan 7 17:01:20 2009 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 23:01:20 -0000 Subject: HP9836 hardware. software and manuals availability In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <006401c9711b$de4ec650$ee04010a@dis754cbb81360> I sent this yesterday offlist, but now I've had a delivery failure and no reply. So I'm certainly interested. I don't think I can find a use (or room) for five systems, but I'd be happy to collect and pass this stuff on (and scan the docs if they've not already been scanned). I'm in Oxfordshire and I work in Bracknell so I expect that I could make a trip into Buckinghamshire to collect. 5 HP9836s is probably too much for me to digest, but I could collect them and then pass them on to others. I'd quite like to hang on to one (Tony Duell has convinced me of that). I could also scan the manuals (if they're not already on Bitsavers) and then pass them on to those who have a greater need. I'm sure there would be room in the car for the other bits and bobs too! Regards, Antonio arcarlini at iee.org -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 05 January 2009 19:30 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: srp at saslab.net Subject: Re: HP9836 hardware. software and manuals availability > > I have a large collection of hardware, software and manuals relating > to the HP9836 computer. For the uninitated on Classiccmp, this is a 68000-based computer (OK, there was a very late version with a 68010 in it...). It's a desktop machine with a built-in keyboard and 2 5.25" floppy drives. There are 8 'DIO' expansion slots, 4 of whcih can take boards with external connectors, the other 4 take boards without connectors, like memory, DMA controller, etc. There is a built-in HPIB interface, but nothing else (in particualr, there is not serial port). There are 2 main versions. The 9836A has a single-bit graphics board and a monochrome monitor. The 9836C has a 4 bit-per-pixel graphics oard, a colour lookup tale, adn a colour monitor. > The following items are available to anyone who would like them and > who could collect them from Buckinghamshire. I will only give an > outline of the items available although \I can provide more detailed > listings on request: I would be interested in seeing said lists... Do you want one person to take the lot, or would you consider splitting it? > 1. 5 Hp9836 computers of which 2 are fully functioning. The other 3 > have various failed subsystems but they could easily be cannibalised > into 2 working systems. There is no way I can house any more of these machines, alas (darn it, I already have a 9836A and a 9836CU, along with a 9826 (similar machine but with one floppy drive and a small mono monitor buiit in where the second drive would be). However, I might be ale to help the new owner get all the machine going again. I've done considerale component-level repair on these machines, and I have a pile of 'unofficial schematics'. > 2. Approximately 8 5.25 disk drives, all failed and in need of repair. If these are from the 9836, they'll be 40 cylinder 2-head units. Either Tandon or MPI I think. > 3. Full manual sets for Basic and Pascal in t 2 versions of each. I owuld actually be interested in at least one set of each of those manuals. I think they'll be on the Australian museum site, but it is decidedly non-trivial for me to download and print them. > 4. A collection of memory cards and math coprocessor cards. Again, I would be interested in a coprocessor card, this being one of the DIO cards I don't yet have... > 5. Both 3.5 and 5.25 original operating system disks. The 3.5" disks are probably available from the Australian site, the 5.25" are not, and IMHO should be archived. Later 9826s and 9836s will start fro mexternal drives (so that you can cable up a 9122 and boot from 3.5" disks), but early ones (BOOTROM 2.0 and earlier) will only boot from the intenral 5.25" drive. Peopl with such machines have problems finding boot media. > 6. A collection of 7470 and 7475 plotters most of which are working. I assume all HPIB interfaced? > 7. A collection of various Thinkjet printers and other HP printers, I would be interested to know what 'other' printers you have... > 8. Various HPIB cables > 9. IEM Fortran77 compiler and manuals. > Several 9122 3.25 disk drives > > I have been using these machines for 25 years and have recently > changed to Windows based systems. I do not have the heart just to > throw these items You know, I consider that to be a downgrade :-) > away so please let me know if you need further details or have any > interest in these items. > > Marek Pawlik -tony ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 7 18:25:40 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 17:25:40 -0700 Subject: Lifting heavy rack-mount gear (was Re: PDP-8/e rack questions) In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 07 Jan 2009 08:38:27 -0800. Message-ID: In article , Ian King writes: > [acquiring an 11/34] (plus a dozen terminals and a boatload of > documentation) [...] OK, I gotta ask, what kind of terminals? :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 7 18:27:07 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 17:27:07 -0700 Subject: Lifting heavy rack-mount gear (was Re: PDP-8/e rack questions) In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 07 Jan 2009 12:19:32 -0500. Message-ID: In article , "William Donzelli" writes: > The basic rule of thumb is not to be cheap with rental trucks. Pretty > much avoid all of the consumer grade deals (Uhaul, Enterprise, etc.) > and go straight for the commercial deals. [...] > I use Ryder Commercial Services, and have been very pleased. I have used Penske to move a bunch of SGI gear from St. Louis to Salt Lake City and was very pleased. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 7 18:29:58 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 17:29:58 -0700 Subject: SGI Visualisation Systems... Good for Maya and what else? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 07 Jan 2009 15:02:49 -0600. Message-ID: In article , JP Hindin writes: > I'm unsure where you're at - but I picked all of mine up from the Boeing > surplus in Missouri. They're selling them cheaper than dirt... (how about > a pallet of four Onyx2 desksides for $25? Or an Origin3000 for $100?) That's where I got mine too :-). The guy from Boeing was very helpful during loadout, too. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 7 18:35:51 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 17:35:51 -0700 Subject: SGI Visualisation Systems... Good for Maya and what else? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 07 Jan 2009 14:02:30 -0600. Message-ID: In article , JP Hindin writes: > I was asked recently what my Onyx rack was good for. And it occurred to me > beyond the easy answer of "running Maya"... I wasn't really sure. So, if > you used one of these bigger machines in production (particularly the > Onyx, Onyx2, etc graphics "Visualisation" systems)... I'd sure love to > know what -you- used it for. The University of Utah was using these until recently for high-end visualization. Boeing most likely used them for flight simulator type uses like the F-15 built by McDonnell Douglasi (Boeing absorbed them in 1997). SGI machines still beat out PCs on I/O bandwidth and some other qualities, so these large O2K or O3K machines are not without current commercial users. However, PCs and the Cell broadband engine are giving them a run for their money and its much more cost effective to use more compact equipment for these things. Only certain applications where the I/O and timing guarantees are important make sense for the big SGI iron anymore. Of course, SGI has completely abandoned that market anyway, so you'd be using these machines in 'legacy' mode these days and preparing some sort of replacement setup for when they die. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From drb at msu.edu Wed Jan 7 20:06:43 2009 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 21:06:43 -0500 Subject: IOB6120 Message-ID: <200901080206.n0826hb2026146@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Recent discussion of the SBC6120 and the IOB6120 reminded me that I've been wanting an IOB6120, so I spent a little time looking into having boards fabbed. I talked to Jim Kearney, who said he has no objections. It looks like 25 pre-sold boards at $28 is a workable price. Though less likely, 50 boards pre-sold would be make it $16. Issues: I'm not currently able to front the cost, so it would have to be a pre-pay deal. I'm willing to do the footwork to order boards, but I'm not ready to tackle kitting full parts sets. J.C. Wren said he believes that at one point there may have been issues sourcing flash chips. If original or compatible parts are no longer available, then there's no point. It'll take me approximately a dozen round-tuits to check all of these. Perhaps someone else is intimately familiar with the parts and could do it, or we could split them up among a group and each check a handful? According to Jim, this board is a non-trivial build. I think I can probably pull it off, but I'm not about to start building 25 of them for others. This may limit the number of folks interested in buying. So: Discussion of the above issues (or others)? How many would buy IOB6120 boards (I'll try to keep score)? Cheers, De From sethm at loomcom.com Wed Jan 7 20:38:31 2009 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 18:38:31 -0800 Subject: IOB6120 In-Reply-To: <200901080206.n0826hb2026146@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <200901080206.n0826hb2026146@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 6:06 PM, Dennis Boone wrote: > Recent discussion of the SBC6120 and the IOB6120 reminded me that I've > been wanting an IOB6120, so I spent a little time looking into having > boards fabbed. I talked to Jim Kearney, who said he has no objections. [...] > Discussion of the above issues (or others)? How many would buy IOB6120 > boards (I'll try to keep score)? I'd definitely buy one, either at $16 or $28. It seems to be (a lot of) pretty straight forward surface mount soldering, so I'd have no objection to doing the assembly on mine -- that's half the fun of a kit, after all. So count me in. If the parts are not easily available, of course, that's another matter. I'd likely have to give it a pass unless I could buy it together with the hard-to-get parts. -Seth From FJGJR1 at aol.com Wed Jan 7 20:56:55 2009 From: FJGJR1 at aol.com (FJGJR1 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 21:56:55 EST Subject: more housecleaning -- floppy disk manuals Message-ID: Check current "hot thread" on _www.vintage-computer.com_ (http://www.vintage-computer.com) on disk drives starting with Tezza and his new Kaypro under the Cp/M session If you post there, there may be some who will gladly take them off of your hands and preserve them and use them. Early Kaypros of 1983-84 used Tandons. I switched to Teacs after many frustrations using such a manual to try to repair them and keep them running. I post under GADFRAN Chuck is looking for a Tandon 100-4M - I never heard of one, but you have a Tandon 100-4 manual.- see below for those reading this email Thanks for making them available for those who may need them, rather than just the trash. In a message dated 1/7/2009 4:37:57 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, frustum at pacbell.net writes: For the cost of shipping from Austin, TX. All are originals, except where noted. If any of these aren't yet scanned, I'd be happy to donate them to someone who would scan them. I'm more interested in shipping the bunch than splitting them up. SA850/851 Double Sided Diskette Storage Drive OEM Manual SA850/851 Double Sided Diskette Storage Drive Service Manual SA810/860 Single/Double Sided Half-Height Diskette Storage Drives OEM Manual (copy) SA800/801 Illustrated Parts Catalog SA800/801 Diskette Storage Drive Theory of Operations SA800/801 Diskette Storage Drive Maintenance Manual SA800/801 Diskette Storage Drive OEM Manual SA400 minifloppy Diskette Storage Drive OEM Manual SA400 minifloppy Diskette Storage Drive Service Manual Tandon OEM Operating and Service Manual TM-100-1 and -2 Disk drives 48 TPI Tandon Product Specifications Mini Double Sided Recording Flexible Disk Drive Model <<<<==== TM100-4 96 TPI DSR Tandon TM 100 DIsk Drive OPerating & Service Manual Tandon TM100-1 and TM100-2 Disk Drives 48 TPI Service Manual Tandon TM100 Disk Drive 96/100 TPI Operating & Service Manual (copy) **************New year...new news. Be the first to know what is making headlines. (http://www.aol.com/?ncid=emlcntaolcom00000026) From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Jan 7 21:05:50 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 19:05:50 -0800 Subject: Lifting heavy rack-mount gear (was Re: PDP-8/e rack questions) In-Reply-To: References: Your message of Wed, 07 Jan 2009 08:38:27 -0800. , Message-ID: A bunch of ADM-3As and a few VT-52s. Most of the latter were in various stages of decomposition; one of the few working ones went to the Wofford Witch project. (I now wish I'd kept it....) ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard [legalize at xmission.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 4:25 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Lifting heavy rack-mount gear (was Re: PDP-8/e rack questions) In article , Ian King writes: > [acquiring an 11/34] (plus a dozen terminals and a boatload of > documentation) [...] OK, I gotta ask, what kind of terminals? :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 7 22:16:51 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 20:16:51 -0800 Subject: more housecleaning -- floppy disk manuals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49650DB3.19528.792ACE7@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Jan 2009 at 21:56, FJGJR1 at aol.com wrote: > Chuck is looking for a Tandon 100-4M - I never heard of one, but you have a > Tandon 100-4 manual.- see below for those reading this email There's actually a 100-4 manual online somewhere. The -4 is 96tpi; the -4M is 100 tpi. Drives that can do 96 tpi are a dime a dozen; 100 tpi is a whole different matter--always useful to have a few extras. Was there ever a half-height 100 tpi floppy drive? I've never seen one. Cheers Chuck From FJGJR1 at aol.com Wed Jan 7 22:44:20 2009 From: FJGJR1 at aol.com (FJGJR1 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 23:44:20 EST Subject: Reply - Re: more housecleaning -- floppy disk manuals Message-ID: Thanks Chuck for the info! When I saw this post on these manuals, I thought of you. Looks like they are claimed. It is me GADFRAN from _www.vintage-computer.com_ (http://www.vintage-computer.com) . I tried to respond to your message but my system was acting up again on that site. I only have the usual Tandons for Kaypros - TM100-2 and TM100-4. Frank In a message dated 1/7/2009 11:19:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, cclist at sydex.com writes: On 7 Jan 2009 at 21:56, FJGJR1 at aol.com wrote: > Chuck is looking for a Tandon 100-4M - I never heard of one, but you have a > Tandon 100-4 manual.- see below for those reading this email There's actually a 100-4 manual online somewhere. The -4 is 96tpi; the -4M is 100 tpi. Drives that can do 96 tpi are a dime a dozen; 100 tpi is a whole different matter--always useful to have a few extras. Was there ever a half-height 100 tpi floppy drive? I've never seen one. Cheers Chuck **************New year...new news. Be the first to know what is making headlines. (http://www.aol.com/?ncid=emlcntaolcom00000026) From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Jan 7 22:54:04 2009 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 22:54:04 -0600 Subject: DEC Direct Sales Catalog Message-ID: <51ea77730901072054o4cc5c74fi5143905821fc145@mail.gmail.com> I have a copy of this book: http://flickr.com/photos/chiclassiccomp/3178202349/ It appears to be from around 1979, and is chock full of part numbers and specs for hundreds of DEC products of the time, including rack parts, documentation kits, and even the DECMat carpet :) I would really like to get this book scanned, OCR'd and available to DEC collectors. My questions are: Has this guide, or one close to it, already been scanned? How rare are these guides? Does anyone out there have one? I would have to at least remove the binding in order to scan it (and at 140 pages I'm not going to mash each half-page against the scanner glass.) I'd really hate to destroy a book like this. If I'm careful, I can drill holes in the whitespaces, razor off the edge binding, and reassemble it as ringbound. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Jan 7 23:09:20 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 21:09:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: IOB6120 In-Reply-To: <200901080206.n0826hb2026146@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <200901080206.n0826hb2026146@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Jan 2009, Dennis Boone wrote: > According to Jim, this board is a non-trivial build. I think I can > probably pull it off, but I'm not about to start building 25 of them for > others. This may limit the number of folks interested in buying. The board is indeed non-trivial. I have one with a few components installed. I gave up trying to get started on one of the higher pin-count devices. I strongly suggest that it be offered fully populated and ready to go. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 7 23:21:07 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 22:21:07 -0700 Subject: Fwd: [alt.folklore.compute...] Re: DECWriter APL Font Message-ID: This message has been forwarded from Usenet. To reply to the original author, use the email address from the forwarded message. Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 20:28:29 -0600 Groups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.dec,comp.lang.apl From: Charles Richmond Reply: frizzle at tx.rr.com Org: Canine Computer Center Subject: Re: DECWriter APL Font Re: <54e1908d-cb50-4371-9047-0239a4b25a33 at r37g2000prr.googlegroups.c om> Id: ======== Quadibloc wrote: > On Dec 28, 5:54 am, Quadibloc wrote: > >> Before the fancy smaller Decwriter, there was a later model that still >> looked a lot like an LA36, though. > > Now I've sorted this out. The one you mentioned, the LA120 Decwriter > III, closely resembled the LA36 Decwriter II, except that it had a > modified keyboard arrangement; it was typewriter-pairing, but > {[ and }] keys replaced the {} and [] keys of the traditional > typewriter-pairing layout, following the precedent of the VT 100, > which later was also found on the IBM PC. > > The smaller one with the much nicer fonts was the Decwriter IV, or > LA38 (among other numbers...). > > While the Decwriter III had the same basic fonts as the Decwriter II, > it did have additional features such as condensed and expanded > printing, as I found out from here: > > http://vt100.net/docs/tp83/chapter14.html > I found some old papers from 30+ years ago with some APL functions printed out by an LA36 DECWriter (II?). I have posted them on a web page. I know the functions are *not* coded the best way, but I posted them as an example of the DECWriter APL font: http://www.aquaporin4.com/apl/ The noise in the background is caused by the *poor* quality paper. My college *never* intended these to be kept for 30+ years... -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net | +----------------------------------------------------------------+ From msw at orac.wickensonline.co.uk Wed Jan 7 08:36:04 2009 From: msw at orac.wickensonline.co.uk (msw at orac.wickensonline.co.uk) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 14:36:04 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Source for SCART connectors in US? Message-ID: <09010714360492@orac.wickensonline.co.uk> I N T E R O F F I C E M E M O R A N D U M Date: 07-Jan-2009 02:35pm GMT From: Mark Wickens MSW Dept: Software Development Tel No: 01539 446851 TO: VMSmail User SMTP%"cctalk at clas ( _"SMTP%""cctalk at classiccmp.org""" ) Subject: RE: Source for SCART connectors in US? email me: mark at wickensonline.co.uk regards, mark From charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com Wed Jan 7 18:25:01 2009 From: charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 16:25:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Crossing compiling HP3000 MPE on a VAX was Re: got netbsd 2.0.3 to boot on 11/730 in sim In-Reply-To: <7633.1231349905@mini> Message-ID: <977744.46436.qm@web35306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi Brad! Topic drift, but your post reminded me of one of the most interesting uses for a VAX I know of. Back when HP was developing PA-RISC (mid-1980's) to replace the 16-bit stack architecture 3000 we used a VAX-750 running BSD to host a PA-RISC simulator. I was working on the MPE boot-strap code at the time and used the simulator to write in PA-RISC assembler (no HLL compiler yet) and run tests. We had one 750 for the entire MPE OS Lab, although only a few of us were using it. Not surprising that the turn-around for compiles and debugging reminded me of mainframe batch turn-arounds from school, at the end of the semester of course. Barely usable. We soon got proto-type CPUs implemented in TTL that plugged into the back-plane of a very heavily hacked Series 44 (desk form-factor 3000). That way we could have hardware'ish speed and use real peripherals. Huge improvement before we got real prototype hardware to do OS bring-up on. Of course this was all very hush-hush at the time since HP was locked in a death struggle with DEC in the mini-computer market. Would have been bad press for it to get out that HP used DEC computers to design its new 32-bit computer architecture. Cheers, Lee Courtney --- On Wed, 1/7/09, Brad Parker wrote: > From: Brad Parker > Subject: got netbsd 2.0.3 to boot on 11/730 in sim > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Wednesday, January 7, 2009, 9:38 AM > The vax unix nerds on the list might find this mildly > interesting: > > I hacked a copy of simh vax780 to look like a vax 11/730. > I made a > modified version of the standalone netbsd "boot" > program which does nfs > loads from a deuna (it will do copy's too, which is > handy at times) > > With that I finished debugging netbsd 2.0.3 on the 730. > I've gotten it > to boot to a shell prompt on a simh 11/730 with 4mb of > memory using an > nfs root. woo hoo! > > So, next I'll make a disk image and put my unibus scsi > card in my real > 730 and debug that. With any luck it will just work. > > Once it's going on real hardware I'll get it going > on the latest netbsd > (4.0?) and get a patch back to the netbsd/vax maintainer. > > [for those who care, I use a linux program which simulates > the tu58 to > boot my 730. I made a boot tape image with putr which > contains the > netbsd boot program (as well as the other files needed to > load > microcode, etc). I plan to spend some time and make a > linux program > which will put together valid tu58 tape images, just to > make my life > easier, since putr requires DOS.] > > I have to give the netbsd folks a lot of credit. Their > posix build > system is very handy. But note that releases before 2.0.3 > will *NOT* > build on a posix machine - they require native netbsd to > build cleanly. > > I've always had a soft spot for the 730; maybe because > the 780 was > just too damn big! :-) > > -brad From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Thu Jan 8 01:19:34 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 23:19:34 -0800 Subject: Mac 400k floppy drive alignment? In-Reply-To: References: <49611D16.9040802@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4965A906.2020005@mail.msu.edu> dwight elvey wrote: >> From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu >> >> Got myself an ancient external 400k mac floppy drive on the cheap that >> I'd like to use on my 128k mac -- after cleaning out the old dried >> lubricant and getting the drive mechanism running again, the drive works >> but will only read/write disks that it has formatted, which leads me to >> believe that the drive is out of alignment. How is alignment corrected >> on these drives? >> >> Thanks! >> Josh >> > > Hi > Like any other drive, you need an alignment disk for a 400k drive. > That would be a tough one. > You can always just experiment some. Before moving the stepper, > make sure the track zero is in the right place. After a recal, > measure the distance the head is from the spindle. It should be > close to the same for both drives. > If the track zero is right, try the stepper next. > Dwight > Thanks for the advice. After a few hours' fiddling I've got the drive reading/writing reliably. Now to find some 400k images of mac software that'll run on a 128k :). Thanks! Josh From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Thu Jan 8 01:33:39 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 23:33:39 -0800 Subject: Membrane keyboard connector repair advice? (Osborne 1) Message-ID: <4965AC53.7040506@mail.msu.edu> Yet another small repair question -- Picked up an Osborne 1 with a non-functional keyboard. Upon opening it, I found that one of the plastic/membrane keyboard ribbon connectors had cracked partially through near where it plugs into the PCB. Since these ribbons are actually part of the membrane of the keyboard I can't just replace the cracked ribbon -- so the only option appears to be to re-cut the end of the ribbon cable and expose a bit of the conductive material. What's the recommended means to expose the conductive stripes at the end? I've tried gently scraping with the tip of an x-acto knife but it either does nothing or takes everything off the end :). Thanks! Josh From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Jan 8 02:31:30 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 08:31:30 +0000 Subject: Source for SCART connectors in US? In-Reply-To: <09010714360492@orac.wickensonline.co.uk> References: <09010714360492@orac.wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: <1231403490.5820.102.camel@elric> On Wed, 2009-01-07 at 14:36 +0000, msw at orac.wickensonline.co.uk wrote: > I N T E R O F F I C E M E M O R A N D U M Wow, that's obnoxious. Whose bright idea was it to tack on a huge signature block at the *top* of the email? Gordon From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Thu Jan 8 03:58:17 2009 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 09:58:17 +0000 Subject: DEC Direct Sales Catalog In-Reply-To: <51ea77730901072054o4cc5c74fi5143905821fc145@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730901072054o4cc5c74fi5143905821fc145@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: there are ways without destroying to scan books the pro machines use a camera people should NOT cut spines off I see too much of this distructive behaviour on this list here is a home brew one http://uk.gizmodo.com/2006/02/23/homemade_book_scanner.html Dave Caroline From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Thu Jan 8 04:03:57 2009 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 10:03:57 +0000 Subject: DEC Direct Sales Catalog In-Reply-To: <51ea77730901072054o4cc5c74fi5143905821fc145@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730901072054o4cc5c74fi5143905821fc145@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: and look at the video of this one http://gadgets.boingboing.net/2008/04/24/250k-book-scanner-sw.html not cheap but the idea could be used on a home brew, cnc control software could be EMC2 I would love to make one as I have a collection of manuals to scan Dave Caroline (archivist) From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Jan 8 06:33:45 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 07:33:45 -0500 Subject: What kind of IC is this In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20081231115327.074af3a0@mail.threedee.com> References: <20081230193428.69f05be5.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <2C535D4C-0F9D-4FDC-BEAB-283BE688F3D7@neurotica.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20081231115327.074af3a0@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: <200901080733.46180.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 31 December 2008 12:54:53 pm John Foust wrote: > At 10:22 AM 12/31/2008, Dave McGuire wrote: > >On Dec 30, 2008, at 6:14 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > >>That said, Widlarization is a great way to deal with parts like > >>that. :) > > > > YAY!! Someone else knows of Widlarization! I sure wish I > >could've met him. > > http://www.national.com/rap/Story/widlar.html > > "We still have a sign around our lab, "This is not a black-smith shop." But > there were times when Bob would discover he had wasted a day or two, just > because one bad part had screwed up his circuit. He would bring this bad > part -- a capacitor, a pot, a transistor, an IC, or whatever -- over to > the vise and lay it on the anvil part. Then he would calmly, methodically > beat it with a hammer until the smallest remaining part was > indistinguishable from the dust on the floor. Then he would go back to work > and get the right answer. He explained that it makes you feel much better > if you do this, and, you know that bad part will never come around again > and goof you up. He was right. And I recommend that you join me in doing > this "Widlarizing" when a bad component fools you. You will feel a lot > better." > > - John "One of the celebrated things Widlar did was to put a "hassler" in his office.2 When a person came in to his office and spoke loudly, this circuit would detect the audio, convert the audio to a very high audio frequency, and play back this converted sound. The louder you talked, the lower the pitch would come down into the audio spectrum, and the louder it would play. So if you really hollered, it would make sort of a ringing in your ears. Of course, if you noticed this "ringing" in your ears, and stopped for a while to listen, the "hassler" circuitwould shut up. He gradually got people to stop yelling at him. I mean, Bob really was almost always a soft-spoken person. He didn't have to yell or shout to get his message across. When he did speak, and softly at that, people would soon realize that it was a good idea to listen to him." I *want* one of these...! -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From bob at jfcl.com Thu Jan 8 09:25:44 2009 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 07:25:44 -0800 Subject: KD-11F (11/03) in a BA11-N?? Message-ID: <00df01c971a5$5fcbe3f0$1f63abd0$@com> > Pete Turnbull (pete at dunnington.plus.com) wrote: > a 64KB (32KW) MSV11-D with a base address of 000000(8) responds to all >addresses from 000000(8) to 177777(8). It has a jumper to disable the >top page. Maybe you need to do that? It's certainly possible that could be a problem, but I've been reading the MSV11-D user's manual (it's on vt100.net) and it doesn't have a jumper to disable the top page. Actually what it has is a jumper to _enable_ the bottom 2K of the I/O page, so you can have a tiny bit of extra RAM in systems without many I/O devices. The MSV11 manual says only "factory configured modules will not respond to bank 7 addresses..." and it then goes on to say how you can enable the lower 2K of bank 7 with the aforementioned jumper, but it's quiet about how it decides what a bank 7 address is (i.e. does it monitor BBS7 or the address bits?). The only other jumpers on the MSV11-D are for battery backup and to select the starting address. Thanks for the suggestions, but I'm afraid I'm still puzzled... Bob From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Jan 8 09:40:53 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 09:40:53 -0600 Subject: DEC Direct Sales Catalog In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730901072054o4cc5c74fi5143905821fc145@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49661E85.7030108@pacbell.net> Dave Caroline wrote: > there are ways without destroying to scan books the pro machines use a > camera people should NOT cut spines off > I see too much of this distructive behaviour on this list You have to break an egg to make an omelet. Up front, I apologize for being bristly. Putting "NOT" in caps just set me off. Have you ever availed yourself of any of the docs on bitsavers or its mirrors? Guess how large that collection would be if Al had to spend $35K for a book scanner, or had to flip pages by hand, or had to build an army of tinker-toy book scanners (like the one you mention next) in order to get throughput? I have scanned only a tiny fraction of the number of pages Al has, and it got really tiring flipping a page, orienting it on the flatbed, waiting for the scan, doing the next. I did well over a thousand pages that way before getting pragmatic about things. If the doc is spiral bound (or similar) or stapled, I'll work the staples out or the binding, scan them, then put the staple or spiral binding back in. If the doc is especially valuable, then I'll manually page flip. But otherwise, I have only the slightest twinge liberating the pages. Some manuals have three hole punches despite being bound; with an exacto knife you can cut close enough to the spine that the loose pages fit into a three ring binder. Otherwise I use a fat clip (I don't know the real name) to hold them together when I'm done. I try to scan only things which aren't available, so either the information stays nicely bound on aging paper on my shelf where only I can use it, or the spine gets removed and everybody can use the information. *Far* more information will be lost to entropy due to the existing copies rotting in peoples closets and garages than will be captured through semi-destructive scanning. If you don't want me to cut spines off of manuals, then you can prevent it -- scan it before I do. Point me at your repository of scanned work and I will promise to check there before I do any more scanning. Hurry, though, because I have four more manuals that I want to scan this weekend. In short, most of the time, the information is much more valuable than the physical manifestation of it in an individual book. > here is a home brew one > http://uk.gizmodo.com/2006/02/23/homemade_book_scanner.html I'd like to see the quality of the output -- the book isn't pressed flat, which in my experience leads to curved text in the center of the book and/or shadowing. The book in the demo shots is also midway through the book and lays relatively flat, unlike many manuals and books I have. I'd like to see the scanner scan the first few or last few pages of the book. I also wonder what is the mean number of pages between failures. Just tighten up the legos a bit; just add or maybe remove a little more counterweight and see if it works better. Bah. In the tiny wmv movie, I would guess it is at least 60 seconds per page. For a decent scanner with ADF, 30 ppm is nothing special. No, this isn't practical other than as a rickety hack. Did you watch the video of his camera-based version? It uses the same paper turning technology as the scanner one, but the video quality showing its operation is much clearer. Watch it and you'll get a sense of how practical this thing is: http://www.geocities.jp/takascience/lego/pic/abs2.wmv If you find a book scanner that is under $1000 and works reliably, has decent quality, and doesn't require me to build it myself, let me know. From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Thu Jan 8 09:53:37 2009 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 15:53:37 +0000 Subject: DEC Direct Sales Catalog In-Reply-To: <49661E85.7030108@pacbell.net> References: <51ea77730901072054o4cc5c74fi5143905821fc145@mail.gmail.com> <49661E85.7030108@pacbell.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 3:40 PM, Jim Battle wrote: > You have to break an egg to make an omelet. only for omletes not for books, some do have a value in complete condition I have the catalogue online and respond to reques the correct data entry of the catalogue takes a long time and should predate mass scanning I love the online stuff I want more Dave Caroline (archivist) From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jan 8 09:56:19 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 10:56:19 -0500 Subject: DEC Direct Sales Catalog In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730901072054o4cc5c74fi5143905821fc145@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > there are ways without destroying to scan books the pro machines use a > camera people should NOT cut spines off > I see too much of this distructive behaviour on this list Rebinding softcover books is actually pretty easy, if you know what you are doing, and have the right tools and materials. Many printshops can do it. I have done it myself. -- Will From toby at coreware.co.uk Thu Jan 8 10:14:09 2009 From: toby at coreware.co.uk (Tobias Russell) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 16:14:09 +0000 Subject: Failed bit on 11/05 core memory Message-ID: <1231431249.1216.35.camel@spasmo> Alas having got my 11/05 working, its developed a problem. Bit 5 on the lower 8KW of memory (it has two sets of G110/G231/H214 8KW cores) has failed and is always set to 0 Does this indicate a failure in the X/Y drivers? I have a spare set of G110/G231 cards, so I'm guessing swapping out the failed card will provide me with an immediate fix, although I would like to get the existing card repaired. How is the base address of core memory set? Are there jumpers on the boards or is it position in the backplane that determines its location? Thanks, Toby -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From fryers at gmail.com Thu Jan 8 10:15:12 2009 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 16:15:12 +0000 Subject: DEC Direct Sales Catalog In-Reply-To: <49661E85.7030108@pacbell.net> References: <51ea77730901072054o4cc5c74fi5143905821fc145@mail.gmail.com> <49661E85.7030108@pacbell.net> Message-ID: All, I tend to agree with Jim here on the practicalities of transferring documents from paper to an electronic form. Some assessment and decision to alter the original condition of the paper version probably needs to be made dependent on the value of the paper version against the value of the information represented on the paper. And if the original paper was that valuable, the investment in acid free paper, climate controlled conditions etc to preserve the original would also be under discussion. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jan 8 10:15:33 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 11:15:33 -0500 Subject: IOB6120 In-Reply-To: <200901080206.n0826hb2026146@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <200901080206.n0826hb2026146@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 7, 2009, at 9:06 PM, Dennis Boone wrote: > Recent discussion of the SBC6120 and the IOB6120 reminded me that I've > been wanting an IOB6120, so I spent a little time looking into having > boards fabbed. I talked to Jim Kearney, who said he has no > objections. > > It looks like 25 pre-sold boards at $28 is a workable price. Though > less likely, 50 boards pre-sold would be make it $16. > > Issues: > > I'm not currently able to front the cost, so it would have to be a > pre-pay deal. > > I'm willing to do the footwork to order boards, but I'm not ready to > tackle kitting full parts sets. > > J.C. Wren said he believes that at one point there may have been > issues > sourcing flash chips. If original or compatible parts are no longer > available, then there's no point. It'll take me approximately a dozen > round-tuits to check all of these. Perhaps someone else is intimately > familiar with the parts and could do it, or we could split them up > among > a group and each check a handful? > > According to Jim, this board is a non-trivial build. I think I can > probably pull it off, but I'm not about to start building 25 of > them for > others. This may limit the number of folks interested in buying. > > So: > > Discussion of the above issues (or others)? How many would buy > IOB6120 > boards (I'll try to keep score)? Please put me down for one. I do fine-pitch SMT soldering pretty much every day; I can help with assembly. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Thu Jan 8 10:25:45 2009 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 16:25:45 +0000 Subject: DEC Direct Sales Catalog In-Reply-To: <49661E85.7030108@pacbell.net> References: <51ea77730901072054o4cc5c74fi5143905821fc145@mail.gmail.com> <49661E85.7030108@pacbell.net> Message-ID: oops forgot the url http://www.archivist.info/collection/ some search terms im gets all instruction manuals is gets all instruction and service bk books 005 is dewey for computing my main collection is electronics and test equipment so computing is buried a bit Dave Caroline From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Jan 8 10:51:04 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 10:51:04 -0600 Subject: DEC Direct Sales Catalog In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730901072054o4cc5c74fi5143905821fc145@mail.gmail.com> <49661E85.7030108@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <49662EF8.7080109@pacbell.net> Dave Caroline wrote: > oops forgot the url > > http://www.archivist.info/collection/ > some search terms > im gets all instruction manuals > is gets all instruction and service > bk books > 005 is dewey for computing > my main collection is electronics and test equipment so computing is > buried a bit > > Dave Caroline > Dave, that is impressive -- 1123 books, far more than I have scanned. How do *you* scan them? If you have a lego book scanner and it works, then I take back all of my criticisms of it. But at this point, it seems to incredibly that it would work for one book, much less 1123 books. Are you very patient, or do you have a real book scanner? From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Jan 8 10:54:38 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 16:54:38 +0000 Subject: What kind of IC is this In-Reply-To: <200901080733.46180.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <20081230193428.69f05be5.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <2C535D4C-0F9D-4FDC-BEAB-283BE688F3D7@neurotica.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20081231115327.074af3a0@mail.threedee.com> <200901080733.46180.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <49662FCE.4060307@philpem.me.uk> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > "One of the celebrated things Widlar did was to put a "hassler" in his > office.2 When a person came in to his office and spoke loudly, this circuit > would detect the audio, convert the audio to a very high audio frequency, and > play back this converted sound. [snip] > I *want* one of these...! It was published in Electronic Design magazine: "What's All This Hassler Stuff, Anyhow?" (Pease Porridge) Pease, Bob Electronic Design, May 15, 1995 I've got a (signed!) copy of the article here. Five op-amps (1x LMC6484, LM837 or similar + 1x LM301A), two transistors (jellybeans), a handful of Rs and Cs, half a dozen 1N914 diodes, a tweeter (Radioshack 40-1383 or similar -- 2x6" piezo horn tweeter) and a microphone (Radioshack 270-090 or similar -- basically a cheap PCB-mount electret element). -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Jan 8 11:22:47 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 11:22:47 -0600 Subject: book scanning (was: DEC Direct Sales Catalog) In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730901072054o4cc5c74fi5143905821fc145@mail.gmail.com> <49661E85.7030108@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <49663667.2060404@pacbell.net> Dave Caroline wrote: > On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 3:40 PM, Jim Battle wrote: >> You have to break an egg to make an omelet. > only for omletes > not for books, some do have a value in complete condition I agree certain documents should not be destroyed; I have scanned some books one page at a time myself. However, that doesn't usually apply -- most manuals aren't *that* rare. Scanning the book and making it available also has value, and often more than the value of the complete, intact book. Personally I'm much less worried about the loss of value than I am about copyright issues. There are things I have scanned which I haven't put online. I could certainly work harder to acquire permission to post what I do. 90% of my scanning doesn't have such approval, although I'm fairly comfortable that the copyright holder isn't concerned. (How do I know the latter? I've been contacted by some of the principals of Processor Technology who said: "nice work", but I don't have a piece of paper with a lawyers signature on it. Getronics bought up Wang a decade ago, and while they haven't given me any legal document, the fact that they shipped me a pallet of documents, floppies, and equipment for the cost of shipping after seeing my website should count for something.) > I have the catalogue online and respond to reques > the correct data entry of the catalogue takes a long time and should > predate mass scanning > I love the online stuff I want more Dave, not to be snippy, but I am not sure where the punctuation goes above. Let me guess. > I have the catalogue online and respond to requests. > The correct data entry of the catalogue takes a long time and should > predate mass scanning. > I love the online stuff. I want more. Did I get it right? Why should the catalog predate the scanning? It isn't obvious to me. At what point do you decide your catalog is done and start scanning then? Personally, I scan when I have something to scan and I have the time. If I waited for the "right" time nothing would ever be scanned. Some of my docs: http://www.sol20.org/manuals.html http://www.sol20.org/articles.html http://www.wang2200.org/docs.html http://www.thebattles.net/bondwell/bondwell.html http://www.thebattles.net/sage/sage.html http://www.thebattles.net/oddments/oddments.html http://www.thebattles.net/wang/3300.html I have a couple more sites with corresponding documents, but they aren't online yet. From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Jan 8 11:26:56 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 11:26:56 -0600 Subject: What kind of IC is this In-Reply-To: <49662FCE.4060307@philpem.me.uk> References: <20081230193428.69f05be5.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <2C535D4C-0F9D-4FDC-BEAB-283BE688F3D7@neurotica.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20081231115327.074af3a0@mail.threedee.com> <200901080733.46180.rtellason@verizon.net> <49662FCE.4060307@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <49663760.3060105@pacbell.net> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> "One of the celebrated things Widlar did was to put a "hassler" in his >> office.2 When a person came in to his office and spoke loudly, this >> circuit would detect the audio, convert the audio to a very high audio >> frequency, and play back this converted sound. > [snip] >> I *want* one of these...! > > It was published in Electronic Design magazine: > > "What's All This Hassler Stuff, Anyhow?" (Pease Porridge) > Pease, Bob > Electronic Design, May 15, 1995 > > I've got a (signed!) copy of the article here. Five op-amps (1x LMC6484, > LM837 or similar + 1x LM301A), two transistors (jellybeans), a handful > of Rs and Cs, half a dozen 1N914 diodes, a tweeter (Radioshack 40-1383 > or similar -- 2x6" piezo horn tweeter) and a microphone (Radioshack > 270-090 or similar -- basically a cheap PCB-mount electret element). http://electronicdesign.com/Globals/PlanetEE/Content/3080.html From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Thu Jan 8 11:34:41 2009 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 17:34:41 +0000 Subject: book scanning (was: DEC Direct Sales Catalog) In-Reply-To: <49663667.2060404@pacbell.net> References: <51ea77730901072054o4cc5c74fi5143905821fc145@mail.gmail.com> <49661E85.7030108@pacbell.net> <49663667.2060404@pacbell.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 5:22 PM, Jim Battle wrote: > Why should the catalog predate the scanning? It isn't obvious to me. At > what point do you decide your catalog is done and start scanning then? Never ending job Also there is no need to scan the unrequested unsearched for documents. I also catalogue so I can find them. re legal a large chunk came from a manual copying business and in that there is permission for one manufacturer Philips for out of production equipment, so I'm safe there at least. Also thats another reason for on request, its less obvious what gets copied or not. Dave Caroline From RichA at vulcan.com Thu Jan 8 12:00:44 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 10:00:44 -0800 Subject: HP's use of DEC equipment RE: Crossing compiling HP3000 MPE on a VAX In-Reply-To: <977744.46436.qm@web35306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <7633.1231349905@mini> <977744.46436.qm@web35306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: From: Lee Courtney Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 4:25 PM > Topic drift, but your post reminded me of one of the most interesting uses > for a VAX I know of. > Back when HP was developing PA-RISC (mid-1980's) to replace the 16-bit stack > architecture 3000 we used a VAX-750 running BSD to host a PA-RISC simulator. [big snip ] > Of course this was all very hush-hush at the time since HP was locked in a > death struggle with DEC in the mini-computer market. Would have been bad > press for it to get out that HP used DEC computers to design its new 32-bit > computer architecture. Hi, Lee, [I didn't know you had worked for HP. You may have known one of my student friends from Stanford who worked on HP-UX for PA-RISC after he graduated, but that's a topic for another time.] This was not the first time, or first DEC architecture, that HP used in product development. Several of the engineers at XKL were former DEC-20 users while employed at HP, which used the SUDS CAD package (as did cisco Systems, where many of them went from HP). Some of my old friends were the system managers for those machines. Rich Alderson Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell From RichA at vulcan.com Thu Jan 8 12:07:44 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 10:07:44 -0800 Subject: Mac 400k floppy drive alignment? In-Reply-To: <4965A906.2020005@mail.msu.edu> References: <49611D16.9040802@mail.msu.edu> <4965A906.2020005@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: From: Josh Dersch Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 11:20 PM > Thanks for the advice. After a few hours' fiddling I've got the drive > reading/writing reliably. Now to find some 400k images of mac software > that'll run on a 128k :). One of these days one of my tuits will be other than rhomboidal, and I'll put System 7.5 on the 6100 in my storage locker (since that's the last version of Mac OS that will deal with 400K disks) to run disk copy and create those images. I still have the original MacWrite and MacPaint floppies that came with my 128K, along with a lot of other good stuff (like the Banana PC 6000 Jr. emulator for the Finder, and a CLI that would only run on a 68000). Rich Alderson Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Thu Jan 8 12:40:41 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 13:40:41 -0500 Subject: DEC Direct Sales Catalog References: <51ea77730901072054o4cc5c74fi5143905821fc145@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <18790.18601.601907.258998@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> >>>>> "William" == William Donzelli writes: >> there are ways without destroying to scan books the pro machines >> use a camera people should NOT cut spines off I see too much of >> this distructive behaviour on this list William> Rebinding softcover books is actually pretty easy, if you William> know what you are doing, and have the right tools and William> materials. Many printshops can do it. Actually, the same is true for hardcovers; it may even be easier because the main tools are thread and needle. I have a book about home bookbinding; forgot author/publisher but from what I remember it's British -- this one I believe: http://www.amazon.com/Basic-Bookbinding-W-Lewis/dp/0486201694 paul From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Thu Jan 8 12:54:25 2009 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 18:54:25 +0000 Subject: DEC Direct Sales Catalog In-Reply-To: <49662EF8.7080109@pacbell.net> References: <51ea77730901072054o4cc5c74fi5143905821fc145@mail.gmail.com> <49661E85.7030108@pacbell.net> <49662EF8.7080109@pacbell.net> Message-ID: That home scanner is not mine my book scanning is well behind 1100, but slide scanning is well advanced cataloguing has reached 15k items so at least finding is possible (if it hasnt got moved in a rush at some time and not put back). Some you wont fine on the net as I have just not copied across yet. Items like microfilm of van drivers invoices to butchers are an interesting social history but its 800 scans I will never do unless I get paid or begged and takes little space. search Robirch Dave Caroline From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Jan 8 13:01:35 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 17:01:35 -0200 Subject: book scanning (was: DEC Direct Sales Catalog) References: <51ea77730901072054o4cc5c74fi5143905821fc145@mail.gmail.com> <49661E85.7030108@pacbell.net> <49663667.2060404@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <159c01c971c3$a6a98a20$46fea8c0@DeskJara> > Personally, I scan when I have something to scan and I have the time. > If I waited for the "right" time nothing would ever be scanned. I don't have free time to scanning. It is TOO MUCH time consuming. And, without ADF (accept donations :D) it is a pain in that place the sun doesn't shine to scan. BUT I use a lot of online documents, so I give back something to the comunity. When I have something that rare, I do scan that. A pain there, you see... Alexandre :) From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Jan 8 13:06:21 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 11:06:21 -0800 Subject: Failed bit on 11/05 core memory References: <1231431249.1216.35.camel@spasmo> Message-ID: <49664EAD.BB843518@cs.ubc.ca> Tobias Russell wrote: > > Alas having got my 11/05 working, its developed a problem. Bit 5 on the > lower 8KW of memory (it has two sets of G110/G231/H214 8KW cores) has > failed and is always set to 0 > > Does this indicate a failure in the X/Y drivers? An X/Y driver failure will typically manifest as a failure of a range in the address space - or more specifically holes throughout the address space corresponding to the matrix size. The failure of a particular bit in the word-width suggests a problem in either the sense or inhibit circuitry of that bit. On the whole, an inhibit driver is more likely to fail than a sense amp, as the inhibit drivers are relatively high-power and may have heat-dissipation issues. You may be able to discern between a sense amp failure and inhibit driver failure by examining some memory locations which you know contained 'data' and have not been accessed since the failure. If you can scan through those locations and find that the bit in question shows variation (both 1's and 0's) on the first examination, but then return all 1's or all 0's on any subsequent examinations through the range, then it suggests the sense circuitry is working but the inhibit ciruitry is failing to restore the bit after the destructive read. (Of course, if the machine did a full memory test/scan at power-up the above is not going to help.) (If it might help, see http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/coremem/index.html for (my own) treatise on the organisation and principles of operation of core memory.) > I have a spare set of G110/G231 cards, so I'm guessing swapping out the > failed card will provide me with an immediate fix, although I would like > to get the existing card repaired. > > How is the base address of core memory set? Are there jumpers on the > boards or is it position in the backplane that determines its location? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 8 12:45:14 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 18:45:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP9836 hardware. software and manuals availability In-Reply-To: <006401c9711b$de4ec650$ee04010a@dis754cbb81360> from "a.carlini" at Jan 7, 9 11:01:20 pm Message-ID: > > I sent this yesterday offlist, but now I've had a delivery failure and > no reply. I sent my replies both to the list and to what appeared to be the sender's address (I suspect he's not on the list) and to date have heard nothing more... > > So I'm certainly interested. I don't think I can find a use (or room) > for five > systems, but I'd be happy to collect and pass this stuff on (and scan > the docs > if they've not already been scanned). I believe the manuals are available from http://www.hpmuseum.net/ . As I mentuioned, I would quite like a set of original manuals simply because I am still doing things with these machines and it's a right pain (read : next to impossible) for me to download and print anything that large. > 5 HP9836s is probably too much for me to digest, but I could collect > them and then pass them on to others. I'd quite like to hang on to one > (Tony Duell has convinced me of that). They are interesting machines.... Alsa we don't know the specification yet (even if they're -A (monochrome) or -C (colour) machines. I really can't accomodate any more of these machines, but would be interested in unusual add-ons that I've not seen so as to produce unofficial repair information for them (which I'll then share of course). And I would be very happy to help in getting all the machines running again. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 8 12:48:32 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 18:48:32 +0000 (GMT) Subject: more housecleaning -- floppy disk manuals In-Reply-To: <49650DB3.19528.792ACE7@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 7, 9 08:16:51 pm Message-ID: > Was there ever a half-height 100 tpi floppy drive? I've never seen > one. I think there must have been. Didn;t the Commodore 8050 use 100tpi drives? In which case the 8250LP ('Low Profile') and I guess the PET 8296D (Intenral drives, basically an 8296 and 8250LP built into one case) must have used half-height 100tpi drives. -tony From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Jan 8 13:37:01 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 13:37:01 -0600 Subject: Free Wang 2200 CS equipment near Detroit, Michigan Message-ID: <496655DD.3030507@pacbell.net> I was contacted by Mr. Mike Sharl. He has a client that needs to dispose of some functioning Wang equipment, namely: > The Wang CS and SDS drive and 2236 monitors, cables, etc > at my client's office will be tossed by mid January. The Wang CS was a late 80s incarnation of the 2200 MVP. The MVP is a microcoded machine that runs the Wang BASIC-2 dialect. It is also a timeshared system, as you can connect up to 16 terminals (that is what the 2236 thing is -- intelligent terminals with 8080s in them). The SDS drive is a 3rd party hard disk made by Southern Data Systems. I would suspect a cache of manuals and software come with it. It is located in Southfield, Michigan. The owner doesn't want any cash, just wants it gone as they are moving locations. If nobody claims it in the next few weeks, it will be turned back into sand. Email me and I'll connect you with Mike. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 8 13:17:37 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 19:17:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Failed bit on 11/05 core memory In-Reply-To: <1231431249.1216.35.camel@spasmo> from "Tobias Russell" at Jan 8, 9 04:14:09 pm Message-ID: > > Alas having got my 11/05 working, its developed a problem. Bit 5 on the > lower 8KW of memory (it has two sets of G110/G231/H214 8KW cores) has > failed and is always set to 0 > > Does this indicate a failure in the X/Y drivers? Given that it's only kalf of the memory, I think it's safe to say it's a problem with the memroy board set and not the CPU or backplane. But I don't think it#'s the X/Y drivers which are the addressing circuits. More likely to be a problem with the snese/inhibit circuitry. I've not looked at hte printset for _years_, but I suspect you have 16 indentical sense/inibit cirucuits (one for each bit) whivh gives you something to compare signals with. > How is the base address of core memory set? Are there jumpers on the > boards or is it position in the backplane that determines its location? DEC never used 'geogrphical addressing' (depending on slot position) on the Unibus (or for that matter Omnibus or Qbus). The address will be set by jumpers on the PCB (although I don't know which of the PCBs in the memroy board set contains the addressing jumpers). -tony From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jan 8 13:37:36 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 14:37:36 -0500 Subject: DEC Direct Sales Catalog In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730901072054o4cc5c74fi5143905821fc145@mail.gmail.com> <49661E85.7030108@pacbell.net> <49662EF8.7080109@pacbell.net> Message-ID: > That home scanner is not mine my book scanning is well behind 1100, > but slide scanning is well advanced > cataloguing has reached 15k items so at least finding is possible (if > it hasnt got moved in a rush at some time and not put back). Some you > wont fine on the net as I have just not copied across yet. > > Items like microfilm of van drivers invoices to butchers are an > interesting social history but its 800 scans I will never do unless I > get paid or begged and takes little space. search Robirch Punctuation. Periods, commas, that sort of stuff. They are actually useful. Seriously, your posts are not the easiest things to read. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jan 8 13:41:41 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 14:41:41 -0500 Subject: IBM 3532 Message-ID: Does anyone know what the proper drive (as in down to an IBM FRU number) the 3532-023 SCSI tape box wants? It is a 2.3G 8mm of some sort. -- Will From bryan.pope at comcast.net Thu Jan 8 13:42:26 2009 From: bryan.pope at comcast.net (Bryan Pope) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 14:42:26 -0500 Subject: more housecleaning -- floppy disk manuals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49665722.6030305@comcast.net> Tony Duell wrote: >> Was there ever a half-height 100 tpi floppy drive? I've never seen >> one. >> > > I think there must have been. Didn;t the Commodore 8050 use 100tpi > drives? In which case the 8250LP ('Low Profile') and I guess the PET > 8296D (Intenral drives, basically an 8296 and 8250LP built into one case) > must have used half-height 100tpi drives. > You are correct. The 8050 is single sided and the 8250 is double-sided. Also there is the SFD-1001 which is just like an 8250 but half the height. Cheers, Bryan From nico at farumdata.dk Thu Jan 8 13:49:44 2009 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 20:49:44 +0100 Subject: IBM 3532 References: Message-ID: > Does anyone know what the proper drive (as in down to an IBM FRU > number) the 3532-023 SCSI tape box wants? It is a 2.3G 8mm of some > sort. > I dont know the 3532, but IBM did use Exabytes 8200 and 8500 in the AS/400 series. If the drive is normal height (4 inches or so), it would be a 8200. Can't say if there would be a firmware problem (drive ID or other funny things) Nico -- Jeg beskyttes af den gratis SPAMfighter til privatbrugere. Den har indtil videre sparet mig for at f? 17 spam-mails. Betalende brugere f?r ikke denne besked i deres e-mails. Hent gratis SPAMfighter her: http://www.spamfighter.com/lda From drb at msu.edu Thu Jan 8 13:54:25 2009 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 14:54:25 -0500 Subject: Free Wang 2200 CS equipment near Detroit, Michigan In-Reply-To: (Your message of Thu, 08 Jan 2009 13:37:01 CST.) <496655DD.3030507@pacbell.net> References: <496655DD.3030507@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <200901081954.n08JsPQK017479@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > The Wang CS was a late 80s incarnation of the 2200 MVP. The MVP is a > microcoded machine that runs the Wang BASIC-2 dialect. It is also a > timeshared system, as you can connect up to 16 terminals (that is what > the 2236 thing is -- intelligent terminals with 8080s in them). The SDS > drive is a 3rd party hard disk made by Southern Data Systems. I would > suspect a cache of manuals and software come with it. > It is located in Southfield, Michigan. The owner doesn't want any cash, > just wants it gone as they are moving locations. If nobody claims it in > the next few weeks, it will be turned back into sand. I need to run to Farmington this weekend, and could probably help load this if someone is interested. I hesitate to offer to store it temporarily, because space is a bit tight at home right now. De From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jan 8 14:17:30 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 15:17:30 -0500 Subject: IBM 3532 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I dont know the 3532, but IBM did use Exabytes 8200 and 8500 in the AS/400 > series. > If the drive is normal height (4 inches or so), it would be a 8200. > Can't say if there would be a firmware problem (drive ID or other funny > things) Thanks, but that is why I would like to know the IBM FRU (that ##AB#### sort of number). -- Will From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Thu Jan 8 14:37:58 2009 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (Stephane Tsacas) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 21:37:58 +0100 Subject: pdp 11/55 music LP on ebay (350143529632) Message-ID: http://cgi.ebay.fr/LP-KLARENZ-BARLOW-HERBERT-HENCK-PDP-11-55-WERGO_W0QQitemZ350143529632QQcmdZViewItemQQptZB?cher_Unterhaltung_Music_CDs?_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116#ht_1941wt_907 From the auction item description : *Klarenz Barlow, " ?o?luotob?si?letmesi* *"* ** *Herbert Henck, Klavier* *PDP 11/55 Computer, 4X Digital-Synthesizer* -- Stephane Paris, France. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Jan 8 14:42:21 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 20:42:21 +0000 Subject: KD-11F (11/03) in a BA11-N?? In-Reply-To: <00df01c971a5$5fcbe3f0$1f63abd0$@com> References: <00df01c971a5$5fcbe3f0$1f63abd0$@com> Message-ID: <4966652D.7090603@dunnington.plus.com> On 08/01/2009 15:25, Bob Armstrong wrote: >> Pete Turnbull (pete at dunnington.plus.com) wrote: >> a 64KB (32KW) MSV11-D with a base address of 000000(8) responds to all >> addresses from 000000(8) to 177777(8). > It's certainly possible that could be a problem, but I've been reading the > MSV11-D user's manual (it's on vt100.net) and it doesn't have a jumper to > disable the top page. Actually what it has is a jumper to _enable_ the > bottom 2K of the I/O page, so you can have a tiny bit of extra RAM in > systems without many I/O devices. Ah yes, I mis-remembered - sorry. All the diagrams and labels in the MSV11-D,E manuals and the various handbooks refer to that jumper as "enable/disable bank 7" and I tend to forget exactly what that means! > The MSV11 manual says only "factory configured modules will not respond to > bank 7 addresses..." and it then goes on to say how you can enable the lower > 2K of bank 7 with the aforementioned jumper, but it's quiet about how it > decides what a bank 7 address is (i.e. does it monitor BBS7 or the address > bits?). It monitors BBS7 to determine if access is to the I/O page, and optionally combines that with BDAL12 to see if it's the lower 2K or upper 2K. If you jumper the CPU to enter ODT instead of executing the bootstrap, what happens? Or if you power things up with with the front panel set to HALT? If you attempt to execute the BDV11 bootstrap, what happens when it halts? Does the RUN light ever light, even briefly? What do the lights on the BDV11 show? Do these same boards, in exactly this combination, work properly in the BA11-M? Exactly which version of the M7264 do you have? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jan 8 15:15:14 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 16:15:14 -0500 Subject: Ancient Mac file/disk preservation/archiving (was Re: Mac 400k floppy drive alignment?) Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 1:07 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > One of these days one of my tuits will be other than rhomboidal, and I'll put > System 7.5 on the 6100 in my storage locker (since that's the last version of > Mac OS that will deal with 400K disks)... Good to know... I have plenty of late 68K and early PPC Macs handy, but wasn't sure what could or could not read 400K disks. > I still have the original MacWrite and MacPaint floppies that came > with my 128K... I think I still have those from somewhere (I couldn't afford a Mac when they were *NEW*, but I did manage one eventually. >... along with a lot of other good stuff (like the Banana PC 6000 Jr. > emulator for the Finder, and a CLI that would only run on a 68000). Nice. Those sound like fun. I know I have plenty of old 400K disks because I have yet to go through the boxes of floppies from my mother's shop. She ran "Academic Typing and Typesetting" for years, a few blocks north of Ohio State; and for the longest time, she used Mac 512K and 512Ke machines (eventually with Dove Snap boards), a couple of Mac Pluses, then finally settled on Mac SEs which she stayed with until she died in 1997. I don't think she had a single machine that I didn't open up to either repair or upgrade (or both!) over the years, including loading a "Plus" ROM set into her $5,000 original Apple LaserWriter. She never could get over the fact that her laser printer was always her most powerful computer. It wasn't until late that she had a Mac over 2.5MB of RAM. She moved up from IBM Selectric II typewriters, and to her, the Mac was foremost a machine for processing text. She never outgrew System 5 and whatever version of Word for Macintosh that ran on a Mac Plus-equivalent box even when all new Macs had color and more memory and disk in one machine than all of hers combined. She wasn't much for games, unsurprisingly, but in amongst stacks of student papers and dissertations, I hope to find a few gems tucked here and there. Her entire collection of floppies plus images of all of her machines would scarcely make a dent in a CD-ROM, so it's more the time it's going to take to read things in than anything else. Presuming one has a few hundred floppies to read in, does anyone have any favorite apps to recommend? I presume, like for the Amiga, there are preferred floppy image formats that could be used to either reconstitute real media or to feed to an emulator. Obviously, any imaging program should be able to do that, but it doesn't hurt to specifically ask. Among the (not uncommon) things I recall from her machines in the 1980s are MacPuke, the "Jive Finder", and a variety of PICTs of various anti-DOS posters. What I'm looking forward to is finding things I've long forgotten were there. -ethan From drb at msu.edu Thu Jan 8 15:28:23 2009 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 16:28:23 -0500 Subject: Ancient Mac file/disk preservation/archiving (was Re: Mac 400k floppy drive alignment?) In-Reply-To: (Your message of Thu, 08 Jan 2009 16:15:14 EST.) References: Message-ID: <200901082128.n08LSN0F019676@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 1:07 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > One of these days one of my tuits will be other than rhomboidal, and I'll put > System 7.5 on the 6100 in my storage locker (since that's the last version of > Mac OS that will deal with 400K disks)... Those who have a runnable copy of Word 1.0 for Mac may wish to keep it runnable. The file format it generated is readable by nearly nothing else, including any later Word version. We had to recover a textbook (possibly the only one ever written) for an African language (Pulaar) written by a local professor in the 80s using Word 1.0. Since I've never been a machead, the only thing that saved us was that one of our student employees happened to have an old Mac laying around that had this version installed. De From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Jan 8 16:01:05 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 16:01:05 -0600 Subject: Free Wang 2200 CS equipment near Detroit, Michigan In-Reply-To: <496655DD.3030507@pacbell.net> References: <496655DD.3030507@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <496677A1.4050804@pacbell.net> Jim Battle wrote: > I was contacted by Mr. Mike Sharl. He has a client that needs to > dispose of some functioning Wang equipment, namely: It has been claimed, thankfully. From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Jan 8 16:07:17 2009 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 22:07:17 -0000 Subject: Source for SCART connectors in US? In-Reply-To: <1231403490.5820.102.camel@elric> Message-ID: <010301c971dd$7d0e2580$ee04010a@dis754cbb81360> Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: > On Wed, 2009-01-07 at 14:36 +0000, msw at orac.wickensonline.co.uk wrote: >> I N T E R O F F I C E M E M O R A N D U M > > >Wow, that's obnoxious. Whose bright idea was it to tack on a huge signature block at the *top* of the email? I was just about to ask him whether that really was an ALL-IN-1 system sending email directly to the list! Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jan 8 16:17:46 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 17:17:46 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 modem Message-ID: I have a TRS-80 acoustic coupler type modem, model AC-3, available. It is in perfect condition, never been used. I do not have the power unit, however. And I mean perfect. Available, best offer over sixteen cents plus postage from 10512. -- Will From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 8 16:32:31 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 14:32:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: FS: Binding machine (Was: DEC Direct Sales Catalog In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730901072054o4cc5c74fi5143905821fc145@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090108142050.R4416@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 8 Jan 2009, William Donzelli wrote: > Rebinding softcover books is actually pretty easy, if you know what > you are doing, and have the right tools and materials. Many printshops > can do it. > I have done it myself. $1.00 OBO pickup in Berkeley: (I don't want to deal with shipping!) Armarco Bind-O-Mat 200 tabletop hot glue 'perfect' (paperback/phonebook) binding machine. ~4' long by 1' by 1' requires some practice to use well. -- Fred Cisin cisin at xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 1213 Cornell Ave (510) 524-9456 Berkeley, CA 94706 From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jan 8 16:57:05 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 17:57:05 -0500 Subject: Interesting Folder Message-ID: I am culling thru some IBM docs, and came across a boring printer memo (for the 3203, all about print quality, big deal) bound in an interesting binder. It is a standard 1950s brown Accopress binder, but the tag on the front says "FRAME 41, XD-1 MAINTENANCE SUPPORT, GROUP 201-250". This cam from a gut that gave RCS a big pile of IBM docs (he was an FE) in the Boston area. XD-1 as in AN/FSQ-7(XD-1)? Mike? -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jan 8 17:13:53 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 18:13:53 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 modem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I have a TRS-80 acoustic coupler type modem, model AC-3, available. Looks plain Jane RS-232 to me, by the way. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jan 8 17:25:48 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 18:25:48 -0500 Subject: IBM paper Message-ID: I culled roughly 15 pounds of IBM docs out of my pile (so much more to go!) - and it all needs a good home. It is mostly late 1970s early 80s mainframe stuff, dealing with terminals and control units, and some printers as well. I think there is a little disk stuff, too. User guides, maintenance, and thing like that. Best offer over sixteen cents plus shipping from 10512. Al gets automatic dibs. -- Will From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu Jan 8 17:30:56 2009 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 18:30:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: Interesting Folder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Jan 2009, William Donzelli wrote: > I am culling thru some IBM docs, and came across a boring printer memo > (for the 3203, all about print quality, big deal) bound in an > interesting binder. It is a standard 1950s brown Accopress binder, but > the tag on the front says "FRAME 41, XD-1 MAINTENANCE SUPPORT, GROUP > 201-250". This cam from a gut that gave RCS a big pile of IBM docs (he > was an FE) in the Boston area. > > XD-1 as in AN/FSQ-7(XD-1)? Sounds like it. XD-1 would have been at MIT's Lincoln Labs facility. Frame 41 is the Long-range Radar Inputs (LRI) unit. Interesting find. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jan 8 19:39:39 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 20:39:39 -0500 Subject: IBM paper In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Al gets automatic dibs. Claimed by the man himself... -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 8 20:30:51 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 18:30:51 -0800 Subject: more housecleaning -- floppy disk manuals In-Reply-To: <49665722.6030305@comcast.net> References: , <49665722.6030305@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4966465B.19592.C57FC1D@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Jan 2009 at 18:48, Tony Duell wrote: > I think there must have been. Didn;t the Commodore 8050 use 100tpi > drives? In which case the 8250LP ('Low Profile') and I guess the PET > 8296D (Intenral drives, basically an 8296 and 8250LP built into one > case) must have used half-height 100tpi drives. Stock electronics or "Commodore" style drive electronics? I don't know much about these specific units. Cheers, Chuck From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Thu Jan 8 22:46:58 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 20:46:58 -0800 Subject: Mac 400k floppy drive alignment? In-Reply-To: References: <49611D16.9040802@mail.msu.edu> <4965A906.2020005@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4966D6C2.4020909@mail.msu.edu> Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Josh Dersch > Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 11:20 PM > > >> Thanks for the advice. After a few hours' fiddling I've got the drive >> reading/writing reliably. Now to find some 400k images of mac software >> that'll run on a 128k :). >> > > One of these days one of my tuits will be other than rhomboidal, and I'll put > System 7.5 on the 6100 in my storage locker (since that's the last version of > Mac OS that will deal with 400K disks) to run disk copy and create those > images. I still have the original MacWrite and MacPaint floppies that came > with my 128K, along with a lot of other good stuff (like the Banana PC 6000 Jr. > emulator for the Finder, and a CLI that would only run on a 68000). > > > Rich Alderson > Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project > Vulcan, Inc. > 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 > Seattle, WA 98104 > > mailto:RichA at vulcan.com > (206) 342-2239 > (206) 465-2916 cell > > > > Cool stuff - let me know if you ever get that done. (Or if you suspect you'll never have time, I have a IIfx here that's all set up for such a task, and I'm in the Seattle area ;). Thanks, Josh From msw at orac.wickensonline.co.uk Thu Jan 8 02:51:21 2009 From: msw at orac.wickensonline.co.uk (msw at orac.wickensonline.co.uk) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 08:51:21 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Source for SCART connectors in US? Message-ID: <09010808512172@orac.wickensonline.co.uk> I N T E R O F F I C E M E M O R A N D U M Date: 08-Jan-2009 08:49am GMT From: Mark Wickens MSW Dept: Software Development Tel No: 01539 446851 TO: VMSmail User SMTP%"cctalk at clas ( _"SMTP%""cctalk at classiccmp.org""" ) Subject: Re: Source for SCART connectors in US? Gordon, Sorry, I'm doing retrochallenge this year and sending all my emails through ALLIN1, the DIGITAL office automation product circa 80s-90s. I'll investigate how to change the standard email template. For anyone who's interested my challenge is using a VAX 4000/90 as my home computer during January and a couple of small programming challenges. My blog is at: http://www.wickensonline.co.uk/retro Regards, Mark. From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Jan 8 06:04:57 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 07:04:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: Source for SCART connectors in US? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Jan 2009, Steven Hirsch wrote: > Can anyone help me find a supplier for SCART video connectors in the USA? > Maplins in UK has them but wants almost $100.00 (!) flat fee for handling on > international orders. > > Are there any UK vendors with their feet on this planet? In a pinch, is > there a cctech reader overseas that wouldn't mind being a middleman? I don't > want to pay $100.00 for the service, but wouldn't mind a few bucks/pounds for > overhead :-). A hearty thanks to all who've responded! I have a SCART switchbox on the way to me from a list reader and was able to locate some very reasonably priced cables on eBay. I really enjoy the spirit of helpfulness that abides on this list! Happy New Year to all. Steve -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Jan 8 06:10:02 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 07:10:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: Membrane keyboard connector repair advice? (Osborne 1) In-Reply-To: <4965AC53.7040506@mail.msu.edu> References: <4965AC53.7040506@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Jan 2009, Josh Dersch wrote: > Yet another small repair question -- > > Picked up an Osborne 1 with a non-functional keyboard. Upon opening it, I > found that one of the plastic/membrane keyboard ribbon connectors had cracked > partially through near where it plugs into the PCB. > > Since these ribbons are actually part of the membrane of the keyboard I can't > just replace the cracked ribbon -- so the only option appears to be to re-cut > the end of the ribbon cable and expose a bit of the conductive material. > What's the recommended means to expose the conductive stripes at the end? > I've tried gently scraping with the tip of an x-acto knife but it either does > nothing or takes everything off the end :). Are you sure the ribbon is actually a "sandwich"? My Tandy CoCos and Atari 800XL units have a similar flex ribbon where the conductors are on the top surface. I've been able to simply cut them back and reinsert the remainder. (I initially went down the same path and tried scraping them - with similar results ). Steve -- From chrise at pobox.com Thu Jan 8 11:05:19 2009 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 11:05:19 -0600 Subject: SGI Visualisation Systems... Good for Maya and what else? In-Reply-To: <49652787.2050503@gmail.com> References: <49652787.2050503@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090108170518.GD29003@n0jcf.net> On Wednesday (01/07/2009 at 04:07PM -0600), Jules Richardson wrote: >> >> I'm unsure where you're at - but I picked all of mine up from the Boeing >> surplus in Missouri. They're selling them cheaper than dirt... (how about >> a pallet of four Onyx2 desksides for $25? Or an Origin3000 for $100?) > > Middle of Minnesota - there's absolutely nothing up here that needs > anything more powerful than an office with a few PCs in it, sadly. I'm not > even sure what there might be down in Minneapolis - it's not exactly heavy > computing territory (although of course 3M have their roots here, so maybe > there are still a few gems tucked away down that way) well, ah... inspite of the rumors of our death being greatly exaggerated, some of us do still work at SGI... in Minnesota... Eagan to be exact. There is a room full of O2K and O3K (and newer stuff of course) directly behind my office. They're powered on and running... Chris -- Chris Elmquist mailto:chrise at pobox.com From dpham at americanalphainc.com Thu Jan 8 12:11:31 2009 From: dpham at americanalphainc.com (Danny Pham) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 13:11:31 -0500 Subject: 29F512 flash memory Message-ID: <000001c971bc$889eab20$3501a8c0@americanalphainc.com> I'm using ChipMax programmer to flash EPROM 29F512 and for some reasons, it doesn't flash the program. Is there anything that you think I'm doing something wrong? Please give me some advises. Thank you! Best regards, Danny From jlobocki at gmail.com Thu Jan 8 13:10:09 2009 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 13:10:09 -0600 Subject: SGI Visualisation Systems... Good for Maya and what else? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 6:35 PM, Richard wrote: > > In article , > JP Hindin writes: > > > I was asked recently what my Onyx rack was good for. And it occurred to > me > > beyond the easy answer of "running Maya"... I wasn't really sure. So, if > > you used one of these bigger machines in production (particularly the > > Onyx, Onyx2, etc graphics "Visualisation" systems)... I'd sure love to > > know what -you- used it for. > > The University of Utah was using these until recently for high-end > visualization. Boeing most likely used them for flight simulator type > uses like the F-15 built by McDonnell Douglasi (Boeing absorbed them > in 1997). > > SGI machines still beat out PCs on I/O bandwidth and some other > qualities, so these large O2K or O3K machines are not without current > commercial users. However, PCs and the Cell broadband engine are > giving them a run for their money and its much more cost effective to > use more compact equipment for these things. Only certain > applications where the I/O and timing guarantees are important make > sense for the big SGI iron anymore. Of course, SGI has completely > abandoned that market anyway, so you'd be using these machines in > 'legacy' mode these days and preparing some sort of replacement setup > for when they die. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > > > Legalize Adulthood! > abandoned the visualization market? http://www.sgi.com/vue/ it looks like they are back in, and according to the top corner, using the full old logo, which says "silicon graphics" again From charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com Thu Jan 8 13:33:32 2009 From: charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 11:33:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: HP's use of DEC equipment RE: Crossing compiling HP3000 MPE on a VAX In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <682955.78302.qm@web35307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 1/8/09, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Rich Alderson > Subject: HP's use of DEC equipment RE: Crossing compiling HP3000 MPE on a VAX > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > Date: Thursday, January 8, 2009, 10:00 AM > From: Lee Courtney > Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 4:25 PM > > > Topic drift, but your post reminded me of one of the > most interesting uses > > for a VAX I know of. > > > Back when HP was developing PA-RISC (mid-1980's) > to replace the 16-bit stack > > architecture 3000 we used a VAX-750 running BSD to > host a PA-RISC simulator. > > [big snip ] > > Hi, Lee, > > [I didn't know you had worked for HP. You may have > known one of my student > friends from Stanford who worked on HP-UX for PA-RISC > after he graduated, but > that's a topic for another time.] Send me a name(s) off-line. I wasn't heavily engaged with the HP-UX Lab, but my wife was (and still is). > This was not the first time, or first DEC architecture, > that HP used in product > development. Several of the engineers at XKL were former > DEC-20 users while > employed at HP, which used the SUDS CAD package (as did > cisco Systems, where > many of them went from HP). Some of my old friends were > the system managers > for those machines. > Very interesting - if you know more I'd be interested in hearing (off-line). When I joined HP in the late 70s I had used TOPS-20 for several years, but had never touched an HP box. For a while the hardware Lab also had several 3270 type terminals used for CAD/CAM, connected to one of the IBM mainframes in Palo Alto. By the time the PA-RISC Lab moved from Building 42 to 44 in Cupertino, and the project transitioned from HP-Labs to the product division I believe all that work had moved to HP workstations. We also had tricked out IBM AS400 living in the MPE Lab for a while, but that's a different story... Along the same lines I also heard a rumor that in the 1960s SDS used an IBM mainframe for its internal accounting, even as they were competing with the 360 in the business DP marketplace. Interesting how different vendors infiltrated others. Often so things could get done faster and more efficiently. Cheers, Lee Courtney From philip at axeside.co.uk Thu Jan 8 14:01:59 2009 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 20:01:59 +0000 Subject: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: <495D3AAA.1000509@jbrain.com> References: <495D3668.8010202@jbrain.com> <495D3AAA.1000509@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <49665BB7.8090105@axeside.co.uk> I'm coming late to this discussion, and I'm only on CCTech, so I may not have seen everything (not to mention not having had internet over Christmas, and having a lot of messages to skim as a result), but I'd like to get my bit in. Jim Brain wrote: >> I'll check into this (any other links to HPIB interfaces?) Right now, >> I'm fighting with the fact that I believe the full complement of >> IEEE-488 signals is 17, and it sure would be nice if I could get it >> down to 16 > Scratch that. I miscounted. > Jim You can probably make do without REN, too. The PET has it tied to ground, i.e. permanently asserted, for a start. Just assume it's asserted and you won't go far wrong! Commodore drives do some strange things with GPIB addressing. Bit 7 isn't supposed to be used, but I think Commodore use it to add a flag to the primary address when opening files. ISTR they may even use bit 6 this way, thus preventing you from having a device at (disk drive)+16. I don't have much HP stuff (although I do have some 80-series boxen), but one drive I'd like to see emulated would be the Tektronix 4907. This was a device for adding 8-inch floppies to your Tek 4050 series. The 4050 series has its own quirks with GPIB. The one that most annoyed me when I was using a Commodore 8050 with my Tek 4052 was its habit of asserting IFC when you least wanted it to. Like immediately before loading a program, thus causing the 8050 to forget all I had laboriously told it about the program I wanted to load... Philip. From bqt at softjar.se Thu Jan 8 15:10:23 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 22:10:23 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/05 returns to life In-Reply-To: <200901070238.n072bWQr026537@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901070238.n072bWQr026537@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <49666BBF.4030002@softjar.se> Paul Koning wrote: >>>>>> >>>>> "Henk" == Henk Gooijen writes: > >> 2. Is there a chasing lights program I can run on the 11/05? Would > >> be nice to see it visibly doing something > > Henk> Search the net. There is a small program (estimate 7 words). It > Henk> uses the RESET instruction (is that 000005?) ... not nice if > Henk> you connect an RX01 or RX02 to the machine as on every RESET > Henk> (INIT) the heads clunk! > > That's a bit ugly... Definitely. > A cleaner one is the RSTS null job. It relies on the fact that a > number of PDP-11s -- including the 11/05 as far as I remember -- will > display R0 in the lights during a WAIT instruction. > > RT11 won't do, that uses the status register so you need a machine > that has it and that displays it. I forgot what RSX does. Not sure > you could run that on an -05 anyway. RSX uses the side effect of R0 being shown on the data bus on a WAIT instruction as well. And yes, I think you could get RSX running on an 11/05. I don't think there was any PDP11 that couldn't run RSX, but it would be a rather specific RSX you would gen for it. I doubt you could boot any generic RSX system on that machine. Instead you would have to run the sysgen on another machine, and just boot the resulting system on the 11/05. Think unmapped RSX. That won't use any MMU. Still, you'd probably want the full 56K on that machine. > Sufficiently old RT11s should work on that machine. So would RSTS > V4A, if you can find an RK05 or RF11 or RP03 disk drive. :-) New versions of RT-11 should do as well, as long as you select a variant that don't need the MMU. Same goes for RSX, except that RSX won't be self-hosting. > RSTS null job looks like this: > > ; THE SIMPLE NULL JOB > > 10$: MOV R2,R1 ;RELOAD THE WAIT COUNTER > 20$: WAIT ;DISPLAY THE LIGHTS (R0) A WHILE > SOB R1,20$ ;KEEP WAITING > ROL R0 ;ELSE SHIFT PATTERN 1 PLACE LEFT > BR 10$ ; AND AROUND AGAIN... > > You need a periodic interrupt, of course, to break out of the WAIT. And RSX is something similar. Fool around a little, set up R0, and WAIT. The clock interrupt would break you out. Johnny From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Fri Jan 9 01:15:50 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 23:15:50 -0800 Subject: Membrane keyboard connector repair advice? (Osborne 1) In-Reply-To: References: <4965AC53.7040506@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4966F9A6.4030508@mail.msu.edu> Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Wed, 7 Jan 2009, Josh Dersch wrote: > >> Yet another small repair question -- >> >> Picked up an Osborne 1 with a non-functional keyboard. Upon opening >> it, I found that one of the plastic/membrane keyboard ribbon >> connectors had cracked partially through near where it plugs into the >> PCB. >> >> Since these ribbons are actually part of the membrane of the keyboard >> I can't just replace the cracked ribbon -- so the only option appears >> to be to re-cut the end of the ribbon cable and expose a bit of the >> conductive material. What's the recommended means to expose the >> conductive stripes at the end? I've tried gently scraping with the >> tip of an x-acto knife but it either does nothing or takes everything >> off the end :). > > Are you sure the ribbon is actually a "sandwich"? My Tandy CoCos and > Atari 800XL units have a similar flex ribbon where the conductors are > on the top surface. I've been able to simply cut them back and > reinsert the remainder. (I initially went down the same path and > tried scraping them - with similar results ). > > Steve > It's not a sandwich, but there's definitely some sort of coating over the conductive stripes -- I get nothing out of my continuity tester by touching the probes on opposite ends of a given stripe. Hmm. Josh From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Jan 9 02:47:12 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 03:47:12 -0500 Subject: Memory/cache on the 11/70 In-Reply-To: <03bb01c96b82$6f22ec50$46fea8c0@DeskJara> References: <495A0906.6050206@softjar.se> <495BB942.9030409@jetnet.ab.ca> <03bb01c96b82$6f22ec50$46fea8c0@DeskJara> Message-ID: <200901090347.12788.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 31 December 2008 02:59:43 pm Alexandre Souza wrote: > > TTL ... and a few gals... I trust hardware more than software is my view > > point. > > Real cache memory 32k*8 is about 15ns access time in a skinny 28 pin > > package. > > I am just not sure how much memory you can get on a card however ... > > Sigh. > > You have many ways to go. Old Pentium cache is 128K X 4 in a very small > SMD package. But you can get 32X8 in DIP packages which will be free for > asking anywhere. 32kx8 sounds like a real handy size for some of the things that I'd like to do, with z80 and similar 8-bit parts. Any suggestions as to where I might find some welcomed. I have 2kx8 and 8kx8 parts, but nothing bigger. Maybe I should look on my old 486 boards? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 9 02:58:56 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 00:58:56 -0800 Subject: Memory/cache on the 11/70 In-Reply-To: <200901090347.12788.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <495A0906.6050206@softjar.se>, <03bb01c96b82$6f22ec50$46fea8c0@DeskJara>, <200901090347.12788.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4966A150.29876.DBB4414@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Jan 2009 at 3:47, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Any suggestions as to where I might find some welcomed. I have 2kx8 and 8kx8 > parts, but nothing bigger. How fast do you need the parts? There's a "nuisance factor" with smaller capacity SRAM parts--more layout, and sockets (if you use them). You can still get new 70 nsec 128Kx8 and 512Kx8 SRAM in DIP for not a lot of money--and lower power. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Jan 9 03:06:05 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 04:06:05 -0500 Subject: What kind of IC is this In-Reply-To: <0KCR00M2UOI3PLM3@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0KCR00M2UOI3PLM3@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200901090406.05353.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 31 December 2008 07:40:03 pm Allison wrote: > >Subject: Re: What kind of IC is this > > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > > Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 22:50:52 +0000 (GMT) > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > >> > If you're lucky, eitehr th microcontroller is old enough not to > >> > have any security features, or they're not used. In which case you > >> > remove the chip from the PCB and stick it in a suitable programmer. > >> > >> Even the original Intel 8051/8751, circa 1980, has security > >> bits. :-( There are ways to get around (at least) those, though. > > > >Yes, but IIRC the 8048 series (common in classic computer stuff) > > doesn't... > > > >-tony > > My fractional portion of currency is that the 630x is a hitachi varient of > the 680x (6800 single chip mpus). I've seen and have some them from older > hard disks and DC300 tape drives that had mechanically expired. > > Allison I have some of these, HD6303Y in particular, and a databook that covers them. That particular chip was used with an external 27C256 in a musical keyboard where an upgrade offered by the mfr. replaced it with a masked part, so I got some nice salvage out of the deal. :-) Rather odd packaging, though, 64-pin "shrunk" DIP. I did manage to snag a wire-wrap socket for these as a sample at a trade show, but I'm still either going to have to drill a bunch of holes in my perfboard or bend the pins or something to use it. Maybe one of these days... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Jan 9 03:18:36 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 04:18:36 -0500 Subject: What kind of IC is this - part two In-Reply-To: <20090101202915.56b17832.lehmann@ans-netz.de> References: <20090101202915.56b17832.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Message-ID: <200901090418.37130.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 01 January 2009 02:29:15 pm Oliver Lehmann wrote: > Ok, > > I got another one - now with picture! ;) > > It is labeled > > DDU-4- > 7992 > > The picture can be seen here: > > http://pics.pofo.de/gallery/v/S8000/S8000_boards/P1070269.JPG.html > > Wild guessing.... resistornetwork? capacitornetwork (was something like > that around?)? Delay line. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Jan 9 04:25:17 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 05:25:17 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/05 returns to life In-Reply-To: <4963C3FC.4000004@philpem.me.uk> References: <1231273167.6447.87.camel@spasmo> <4963C3FC.4000004@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <200901090525.17966.rtellason@verizon.net> > If you really want to resurrect the fans you've got, you could try removing > the label and putting a drop of 3-in-1 oil on the bearing. Don't expect it > to be anything other than a temporary fix, though. Actually I've had pretty good luck with doing that with any number of fans, for a bunch of years here. I don't use 3-in-1, but some other stuff we have around here that's a pretty light oil and that comes in a similar package, Sunoco branded, I think. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From bob at jfcl.com Fri Jan 9 04:51:38 2009 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 02:51:38 -0800 Subject: KD-11F (11/03) in a BA11-N?? In-Reply-To: <4966652D.7090603@dunnington.plus.com> References: <00df01c971a5$5fcbe3f0$1f63abd0$@com> <4966652D.7090603@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <020a01c97248$3ffd81c0$bff88540$@com> > Peter Turnbull wrote: >If you jumper the CPU to enter ODT instead of executing the bootstrap, >what happens? You never get the ODT prompt (the "@"). Never get anything on the console, FWIW. > Or if you power things up with with the front panel set to HALT? Ditto. > If you attempt to execute the BDV11 bootstrap, what happens >when it halts? Does the RUN light ever light, even briefly? What do >the lights on the BDV11 show? The BDV11 shows all four LEDs on, and the RUN LED does blink momentarily but then goes off. So it's trapping immediately on startup. Either the CPU card is bad (which I know isn't true) or it can't find any addressable RAM, or it can't access the console SLU registers, or something is inhibiting the LSI11 from running at all. >Do these same boards, in exactly this combination, work properly in the BA11-M? Yep. And the same boards except the CPU, work in the same combination in the BA11-N with a 11/23 CPU card. [It's one of the half sized 11/23 cards - KDF11-A - without the onboard SLU and ROMs] >Exactly which version of the M7264 do you have? If you mean the rev level, that I don't know off hand. It's one of the ones with no actual onboard RAM, though (it has the space for it; the RAM chips just aren't populated). Bob From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Jan 9 05:05:52 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 06:05:52 -0500 Subject: What kind of IC is this In-Reply-To: <49662FCE.4060307@philpem.me.uk> References: <20081230193428.69f05be5.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <200901080733.46180.rtellason@verizon.net> <49662FCE.4060307@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <200901090605.52981.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 08 January 2009 11:54:38 am Philip Pemberton wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > "One of the celebrated things Widlar did was to put a "hassler" in his > > office.2 When a person came in to his office and spoke loudly, this > > circuit would detect the audio, convert the audio to a very high audio > > frequency, and play back this converted sound. > > [snip] > > > I *want* one of these...! > > It was published in Electronic Design magazine: > > "What's All This Hassler Stuff, Anyhow?" (Pease Porridge) > Pease, Bob > Electronic Design, May 15, 1995 > > I've got a (signed!) copy of the article here. Five op-amps (1x LMC6484, > LM837 or similar + 1x LM301A), two transistors (jellybeans), a handful of > Rs and Cs, half a dozen 1N914 diodes, a tweeter (Radioshack 40-1383 or > similar -- 2x6" piezo horn tweeter) and a microphone (Radioshack 270-090 or > similar -- basically a cheap PCB-mount electret element). Yeah, I started browsing through his other articles after reading that one, and ran across a link to that device somewhere in the process. Saved the page with the smallish diargam on it (I couldn't really see it on my screen), and will look into it one of these days... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Jan 9 05:25:55 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 06:25:55 -0500 Subject: more housecleaning -- floppy disk manuals In-Reply-To: <4966465B.19592.C57FC1D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <49665722.6030305@comcast.net> <4966465B.19592.C57FC1D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200901090625.55367.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 08 January 2009 09:30:51 pm Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8 Jan 2009 at 18:48, Tony Duell wrote: > > I think there must have been. Didn;t the Commodore 8050 use 100tpi > > drives? In which case the 8250LP ('Low Profile') and I guess the PET > > 8296D (Intenral drives, basically an 8296 and 8250LP built into one > > case) must have used half-height 100tpi drives. > > Stock electronics or "Commodore" style drive electronics? I don't > know much about these specific units. > > Cheers, > Chuck To the best of my recollection (I only ever encountered one of those 8050s) the electronics were very c= - specific. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From toby at coreware.co.uk Fri Jan 9 05:25:54 2009 From: toby at coreware.co.uk (Tobias Russell) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 11:25:54 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/05 returns to life In-Reply-To: <49666BBF.4030002@softjar.se> References: <200901070238.n072bWQr026537@dewey.classiccmp.org> <49666BBF.4030002@softjar.se> Message-ID: <1231500354.2898.128.camel@pokoyo.tan.russellsharpe.com> I've tried out this chasing lights code on the 11/05: Location Contents Opcode Comment 001000 012700 mov #1,r0 Load 1 into R0 001002 000001 001004 006100 rol r0 Rotate R0 left 001006 000005 reset Initialise bus (70ms) 001010 000775 br .-4 Loop back to 'rol r0' (from http://www.psych.usyd.edu.au/pdp-11/11_40.html) This runs, but no chasing lights, I just see what looks like PC activity. So perhaps the 11/05 doesn't display R0 on a RESET. On the operating system front, I've built an RT11 v4 RX01 image on SIMH, but its refusing to work with 16KW of memory (using SJ). Does anyone have any tips for minimizing the memory requirements on RT-11? Finally, I have a choice of RX21 + RX02 or RX11 + RX01 on the 11/05. Beyond the added pain of having to toggle in a longer bootstrap on the RX02, is there any reason not to go with the RX21/RX02 combo? Thanks, Toby On Thu, 2009-01-08 at 22:10 +0100, Johnny Billquist wrote: > Paul Koning wrote: > > >>>>>> >>>>> "Henk" == Henk Gooijen writes: > > > >> 2. Is there a chasing lights program I can run on the 11/05? Would > > >> be nice to see it visibly doing something > > > > Henk> Search the net. There is a small program (estimate 7 words). It > > Henk> uses the RESET instruction (is that 000005?) ... not nice if > > Henk> you connect an RX01 or RX02 to the machine as on every RESET > > Henk> (INIT) the heads clunk! > > > > That's a bit ugly... > > Definitely. > > > A cleaner one is the RSTS null job. It relies on the fact that a > > number of PDP-11s -- including the 11/05 as far as I remember -- will > > display R0 in the lights during a WAIT instruction. > > > > RT11 won't do, that uses the status register so you need a machine > > that has it and that displays it. I forgot what RSX does. Not sure > > you could run that on an -05 anyway. > > RSX uses the side effect of R0 being shown on the data bus on a WAIT > instruction as well. > And yes, I think you could get RSX running on an 11/05. I don't think > there was any PDP11 that couldn't run RSX, but it would be a rather > specific RSX you would gen for it. I doubt you could boot any generic > RSX system on that machine. Instead you would have to run the sysgen on > another machine, and just boot the resulting system on the 11/05. > > Think unmapped RSX. That won't use any MMU. Still, you'd probably want > the full 56K on that machine. > > > Sufficiently old RT11s should work on that machine. So would RSTS > > V4A, if you can find an RK05 or RF11 or RP03 disk drive. :-) > > New versions of RT-11 should do as well, as long as you select a variant > that don't need the MMU. Same goes for RSX, except that RSX won't be > self-hosting. > > > RSTS null job looks like this: > > > > ; THE SIMPLE NULL JOB > > > > 10$: MOV R2,R1 ;RELOAD THE WAIT COUNTER > > 20$: WAIT ;DISPLAY THE LIGHTS (R0) A WHILE > > SOB R1,20$ ;KEEP WAITING > > ROL R0 ;ELSE SHIFT PATTERN 1 PLACE LEFT > > BR 10$ ; AND AROUND AGAIN... > > > > You need a periodic interrupt, of course, to break out of the WAIT. > > And RSX is something similar. Fool around a little, set up R0, and WAIT. > The clock interrupt would break you out. > > Johnny > > -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Jan 9 05:31:37 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 06:31:37 -0500 Subject: Memory/cache on the 11/70 In-Reply-To: <4966A150.29876.DBB4414@cclist.sydex.com> References: <495A0906.6050206@softjar.se> <200901090347.12788.rtellason@verizon.net> <4966A150.29876.DBB4414@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200901090631.37273.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 09 January 2009 03:58:56 am Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9 Jan 2009 at 3:47, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > Any suggestions as to where I might find some welcomed. I have 2kx8 and > > 8kx8 parts, but nothing bigger. > > How fast do you need the parts? Not very. I'm talking about fooling around with 4 MHz Z80s... > There's a "nuisance factor" with smaller capacity SRAM parts--more layout, > and sockets (if you use them). You can still get new 70 nsec 128Kx8 and > 512Kx8 SRAM in DIP for not a lot of money--and lower power. I suppose I could use that as program storage or somesuch. The 32kx8 parts could take care of my RAM needs for one of those chips with just two parts. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Fri Jan 9 05:30:57 2009 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (Stephane Tsacas) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 12:30:57 +0100 Subject: Computer Music (LP) ebay item 350143529632 Message-ID: http://cgi.ebay.fr/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350143529632 >From the auction item description : Klarenz Barlow, " ?o?luotob?si?letmesi " Herbert Henck, Klavier PDP 11/55 Computer, 4X Digital-Synthesizer -- Stephane Paris, France. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Jan 9 07:36:56 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 07:36:56 -0600 Subject: Source for SCART connectors in US? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <496752F8.8040206@gmail.com> Steven Hirsch wrote: > Are there any UK vendors with their feet on this planet? Hmm, our 8yr old asked me the other day if we can escape to the UK for when the sun wipes out the US in about 5 billion years' time... From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Jan 9 07:45:36 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 07:45:36 -0600 Subject: SGI Visualisation Systems... Good for Maya and what else? In-Reply-To: <20090108170518.GD29003@n0jcf.net> References: <49652787.2050503@gmail.com> <20090108170518.GD29003@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <49675500.1030800@gmail.com> Chris Elmquist wrote: > well, ah... inspite of the rumors of our death being greatly exaggerated, > some of us do still work at SGI... in Minnesota... Eagan to be exact. > > There is a room full of O2K and O3K (and newer stuff of course) directly > behind my office. They're powered on and running... Hey, let me know when they're powered off and available ;) Seriously, do you know what the disposal deal is there? I used to know a couple of 'tame' employees at SGI in the UK, but the policy there was that any surplus (regardless of source / age / condition) was rendered inoperative and then tossed in a dumspter to be hauled off for crushing. I never did try prodding SGI in a museum capacity, but they certainly didn't want any Great Unwashed computer collectors knocking on their door. Maybe that's not company-wide policy though, so the Eagan site's better... cheers Jules From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Jan 9 07:53:45 2009 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 14:53:45 +0100 (CET) Subject: PDP-11/05 returns to life In-Reply-To: <1231500354.2898.128.camel@pokoyo.tan.russellsharpe.com> References: <200901070238.n072bWQr026537@dewey.classiccmp.org> <49666BBF.4030002@softjar.se> <1231500354.2898.128.camel@pokoyo.tan.russellsharpe.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jan 2009, Tobias Russell wrote: > I've tried out this chasing lights code on the 11/05: [...] > This runs, but no chasing lights, I just see what looks like PC activity. So perhaps the > 11/05 doesn't display R0 on a RESET. I think that you can't have any chasing lights on an 11/05 or 11/10. Both processors are very reduced microcodes versions of the 11/20. And they don't address the frontpanel like the other PDPs, but instead the single row LED line is loaded serially and displays the PC when running. This FP is really only useful when the CPU is halted. Christian From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Fri Jan 9 08:24:11 2009 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 15:24:11 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/05 returns to life In-Reply-To: <1231500354.2898.128.camel@pokoyo.tan.russellsharpe.com> References: <200901070238.n072bWQr026537@dewey.classiccmp.org> <49666BBF.4030002@softjar.se> <1231500354.2898.128.camel@pokoyo.tan.russellsharpe.com> Message-ID: > From: toby at coreware.co.uk > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 11:25:54 +0000 > Subject: Re: PDP-11/05 returns to life > > I've tried out this chasing lights code on the 11/05: > > ... snip ... > > Finally, I have a choice of RX21 + RX02 or RX11 + RX01 > on the 11/05. Beyond the added pain of having to toggle in > a longer bootstrap on the RX02, is there any reason not to > go with the RX21/RX02 combo? > > Thanks, > Toby The only thing that pops into my mind is that RX211 uses "DMA" and RX11 does not. That means that for the RX211, the NPG chain must be cut (the wire between pins CA1-CB1) of the slot that will have the RX211. For the RX11 that wire must be present. If it is not, the system may hang. That depends on whether the module connects these two pins. Some SPC modules do this, some do not ... An other reason to go for RX02 is that with RX02 you can also read RX01 formatted floppies. The RX02 drive has internally a switch to act as an RX01. It is ovbious that you can not read RX02 formatted floppies with the RX01 drive. And RX02 offers twice the capacity of RX01 ... If I am wrong in any of this, please correct me :-) - Henk. From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Fri Jan 9 08:31:41 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 09:31:41 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/05 returns to life References: <200901070238.n072bWQr026537@dewey.classiccmp.org> <49666BBF.4030002@softjar.se> <1231500354.2898.128.camel@pokoyo.tan.russellsharpe.com> Message-ID: <18791.24525.708314.402928@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tobias" == Tobias Russell writes: Tobias> On the operating system front, I've built an RT11 v4 RX01 Tobias> image on SIMH, but its refusing to work with 16KW of memory Tobias> (using SJ). Does anyone have any tips for minimizing the Tobias> memory requirements on RT-11? Strange for SJ to be so bloated... I haven't used that recent a version. I do remember that SJ ran fine in 8 kW back in version 2.0. That's a pre-DCL version (it has PDP-10 like command lines). If you can find one that might be a good one to try. paul From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 9 10:19:17 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 11:19:17 -0500 Subject: Memory/cache on the 11/70 In-Reply-To: <200901090347.12788.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <495A0906.6050206@softjar.se> <495BB942.9030409@jetnet.ab.ca> <03bb01c96b82$6f22ec50$46fea8c0@DeskJara> <200901090347.12788.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <7B616B69-5B4B-468E-BB04-A68EA50D3D70@neurotica.com> On Jan 9, 2009, at 3:47 AM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> You have many ways to go. Old Pentium cache is 128K X 4 in a >> very small >> SMD package. But you can get 32X8 in DIP packages which will be >> free for >> asking anywhere. > > 32kx8 sounds like a real handy size for some of the things that I'd > like to > do, with z80 and similar 8-bit parts. > > Any suggestions as to where I might find some welcomed. I have > 2kx8 and 8kx8 > parts, but nothing bigger. > > Maybe I should look on my old 486 boards? Why bother? 6264 and 62256 chips are extremely common and much more "standard". They go for a few dollars a tube all day long on eBay. And, should you ever decide to "go that way" with a design, they're also readily available in SMT packages. Standard chips good. Weird chips from the PC world, bad. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jan 9 10:52:59 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 11:52:59 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Message-ID: Next on the Cavalcade of Junk is a plotter for the TRS-80 - model FP-215. This is a parallel port controlled device, capable of drawing on an 8.5 by 11 inch sheet. The cable and manual are included. It powers up and goes thru the self test OK. It is dirty, but really not bad under all the dust. It is a bit heavy. Best offer over sixteen cents plus shipping and packing. -- Will From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Jan 9 10:55:35 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 16:55:35 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/05 returns to life In-Reply-To: References: <200901070238.n072bWQr026537@dewey.classiccmp.org> <49666BBF.4030002@softjar.se> <1231500354.2898.128.camel@pokoyo.tan.russellsharpe.com> Message-ID: <49678187.4010405@dunnington.plus.com> On 09/01/2009 14:24, Henk Gooijen wrote: >> From: toby at coreware.co.uk >> Finally, I have a choice of RX21 + RX02 or RX11 + RX01 >> on the 11/05. Beyond the added pain of having to toggle in >> a longer bootstrap on the RX02, is there any reason not to >> go with the RX21/RX02 combo? > An other reason to go for RX02 is that with RX02 you can also > read RX01 formatted floppies. The RX02 drive has internally > a switch to act as an RX01. It is ovbious that you can not > read RX02 formatted floppies with the RX01 drive. The switch -- if you're referring to the small 2-position DIP switch -- is only used if you want to connect an RX02 drive unit to an RX11 controller, as if it were an RX01 drive unit (it's also used to set how the RX02 behaves for an RX8 controller). You don't need to change it to read RX01-format floppies in the RX02 connected to an RX211. If you do change it, the RX02 won't work properly with the RX211 any more! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From uban at ubanproductions.com Fri Jan 9 10:55:56 2009 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 10:55:56 -0600 Subject: NCCC - Sunfire V100 / Solaris In-Reply-To: <49664EAD.BB843518@cs.ubc.ca> References: <1231431249.1216.35.camel@spasmo> <49664EAD.BB843518@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4967819C.6080009@ubanproductions.com> Sorry about the lack of true classic computing content to this question, but it does relate to a little bit older machine, a Sunfire V100... I purchased one of these from eBay in hopes of possibly upgrading my home firewall and discovered that the machine has a Lights-Out- Management (LOM) CPU controlling the main UltraSPARC IIi processor. The LOM runs a monitor program (LOMlite) which on this particular machine is currently configured to require a login/password when communicating with the machine over the console serial port. >From seemingly endless google searching, it sounds like I should be able to break out of the LOMlite login/password cycle by resetting the machine with the JP13 jumper. When I do this, LOM is reset, a few seemingly ok diagnostic messages are emitted, and then the login password are again requested. I was unable to determine if there is some sort of default login password. The only path seems to be to possibly load the PATA IDE hard drive with Solaris, and then use the Solaris tools to reset the LOM setup. Does anyone on this list have any experience with this machine? --tnx --tom From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Jan 9 11:00:32 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 09:00:32 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/05 returns to life In-Reply-To: <49678187.4010405@dunnington.plus.com> References: <200901070238.n072bWQr026537@dewey.classiccmp.org> <49666BBF.4030002@softjar.se> <1231500354.2898.128.camel@pokoyo.tan.russellsharpe.com> , <49678187.4010405@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: Word. I routinely read and write RX01 disks for our VAX-11 on a PDP-11/03 with an RX02 drive. The only trick: for a new disk, FORMAT/SINGLEDENSITY, then INIT. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pete Turnbull [pete at dunnington.plus.com] Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 8:55 AM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: PDP-11/05 returns to life On 09/01/2009 14:24, Henk Gooijen wrote: >> From: toby at coreware.co.uk >> Finally, I have a choice of RX21 + RX02 or RX11 + RX01 >> on the 11/05. Beyond the added pain of having to toggle in >> a longer bootstrap on the RX02, is there any reason not to >> go with the RX21/RX02 combo? > An other reason to go for RX02 is that with RX02 you can also > read RX01 formatted floppies. The RX02 drive has internally > a switch to act as an RX01. It is ovbious that you can not > read RX02 formatted floppies with the RX01 drive. The switch -- if you're referring to the small 2-position DIP switch -- is only used if you want to connect an RX02 drive unit to an RX11 controller, as if it were an RX01 drive unit (it's also used to set how the RX02 behaves for an RX8 controller). You don't need to change it to read RX01-format floppies in the RX02 connected to an RX211. If you do change it, the RX02 won't work properly with the RX211 any more! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Jan 9 11:08:52 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 12:08:52 -0500 Subject: Memory/cache on the 11/70 In-Reply-To: <7B616B69-5B4B-468E-BB04-A68EA50D3D70@neurotica.com> References: <495A0906.6050206@softjar.se> <200901090347.12788.rtellason@verizon.net> <7B616B69-5B4B-468E-BB04-A68EA50D3D70@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200901091208.52921.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 09 January 2009 11:19:17 am Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jan 9, 2009, at 3:47 AM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >> You have many ways to go. Old Pentium cache is 128K X 4 in a > >> very small > >> SMD package. But you can get 32X8 in DIP packages which will be > >> free for > >> asking anywhere. > > > > 32kx8 sounds like a real handy size for some of the things that I'd > > like to > > do, with z80 and similar 8-bit parts. > > > > Any suggestions as to where I might find some welcomed. I have > > 2kx8 and 8kx8 > > parts, but nothing bigger. > > > > Maybe I should look on my old 486 boards? > > Why bother? 6264 and 62256 chips are extremely common and much > more "standard". They go for a few dollars a tube all day long on > eBay. Well, maybe I oughta look there, then. I haven't bothered with them for the most part... > And, should you ever decide to "go that way" with a design, > they're also readily available in SMT packages. Not likely. > Standard chips good. Weird chips from the PC world, bad. Yup. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Jan 9 11:53:44 2009 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 11:53:44 -0600 Subject: Q-Bus cards for sale Message-ID: <51ea77730901090953g675856b8m7ec78202785dccde@mail.gmail.com> I'm going to start unloading some of my pile of accumulated DEC cards. They are mostly QBus. Some common ones will be offered up here cheaply. Some will be placed on the dreaded eBay. Here is the first listing, a Q-Bus RTC, with more to come: http://shop.ebay.com/merchant/dev*null Thanks for looking -j From trag at io.com Fri Jan 9 12:21:27 2009 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 12:21:27 -0600 (CST) Subject: 29F512 flash memory In-Reply-To: <200901091800.n09I0WjK088154@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901091800.n09I0WjK088154@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <3251e017c4238d3087fdbedf041c61c9.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> > Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 13:11:31 -0500 > From: "Danny Pham" > I'm using ChipMax programmer to flash EPROM 29F512 and for some reasons, > it > doesn't flash the program. Is there anything that you think I'm doing > something wrong? Please give me some advises. Are your chips DIP or PLCC? I ask because if you are using PLCC chips with an adapter, you may have the wrong adapter. The pinout relationship between DIP and PLCC is different for the 512Kb chips than it is for the 1 Mb chips. So a 32 pin PLCC to DIP adapter for 1 Mb flash will not work with 32 pin PLCC 512Kb chip. If it's not that, I can't help you. I'm not familiar with the ChipMax. I use a Needham. Oh, in general, make sure you have the correct make and manufacturer specified. Some of the Flash chips have a reset pin which must be tied high or they won't operate. Others don't, so getting the proper make and model selected in your software can be essential to getting your programmer to handle the reset pin properly (if present). Jeff Walther From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Fri Jan 9 13:28:13 2009 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 20:28:13 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/05 returns to life In-Reply-To: <49678187.4010405@dunnington.plus.com> References: <200901070238.n072bWQr026537@dewey.classiccmp.org> <49666BBF.4030002@softjar.se> <1231500354.2898.128.camel@pokoyo.tan.russellsharpe.com> <49678187.4010405@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: > Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 16:55:35 +0000 > From: pete at dunnington.plus.com > To: > Subject: Re: PDP-11/05 returns to life > > On 09/01/2009 14:24, Henk Gooijen wrote: >>> From: toby at coreware.co.uk > >>> Finally, I have a choice of RX21 + RX02 or RX11 + RX01 >>> on the 11/05. Beyond the added pain of having to toggle in >>> a longer bootstrap on the RX02, is there any reason not to >>> go with the RX21/RX02 combo? > >> An other reason to go for RX02 is that with RX02 you can also >> read RX01 formatted floppies. The RX02 drive has internally >> a switch to act as an RX01. It is ovbious that you can not >> read RX02 formatted floppies with the RX01 drive. > > The switch -- if you're referring to the small 2-position DIP switch -- > is only used if you want to connect an RX02 drive unit to an RX11 > controller, as if it were an RX01 drive unit (it's also used to set how > the RX02 behaves for an RX8 controller). You don't need to change it to > read RX01-format floppies in the RX02 connected to an RX211. If you do > change it, the RX02 won't work properly with the RX211 any more! > > -- > > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York OK! Thanks Pete. I have read about that switch, have seen it, but never tried it. This is not completely what I thought. See, on this list you can learn every day something new about old stuff :-) - Henk. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 9 14:10:04 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 20:10:04 +0000 (GMT) Subject: more housecleaning -- floppy disk manuals In-Reply-To: <4966465B.19592.C57FC1D@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 8, 9 06:30:51 pm Message-ID: > > On 8 Jan 2009 at 18:48, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I think there must have been. Didn;t the Commodore 8050 use 100tpi > > drives? In which case the 8250LP ('Low Profile') and I guess the PET > > 8296D (Intenral drives, basically an 8296 and 8250LP built into one > > case) must have used half-height 100tpi drives. > > Stock electronics or "Commodore" style drive electronics? I don't > know much about these specific units. Oh, very much Commodore electronics. In the 8250LP there's a long, thin PCB between the 2 drives that contains all the 'analogue' electronics for them (read/write chain, etc). And of course the Commodore controller board wit a pair of 6502s on top. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 9 13:59:09 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 19:59:09 +0000 (GMT) Subject: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: <49665BB7.8090105@axeside.co.uk> from "Philip Belben" at Jan 8, 9 08:01:59 pm Message-ID: > You can probably make do without REN, too. The PET has it tied to There would be no reason for the disk unit to _drive_ REN (or to drive ATN or IFC for that matter), since the disk unit will never be a controller. I am not sure if HP disk units need to be able to read the state of REN. Certainly HP machines do use it, but I can't think of any good reason why a disk unit would want to be not controlled remotely. > ground, i.e. permanently asserted, for a start. Just assume it's > asserted and you won't go far wrong! Be careful making assumptions like that if you're talking to HP machines. HP wrote the stnadards for HPIB, and they also have been known to bend them :-). I am told for example, it's impossible to use a 9914 HPIB chip in an HP-compatible drive unit (althoguh it can be used -- and was used by HP -- in a computer to talk to said drive units). -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jan 9 14:35:27 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 15:35:27 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/05 returns to life In-Reply-To: References: <200901070238.n072bWQr026537@dewey.classiccmp.org> <49666BBF.4030002@softjar.se> <1231500354.2898.128.camel@pokoyo.tan.russellsharpe.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 9, 2009 at 9:24 AM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > >> From: toby at coreware.co.uk >> Subject: Re: PDP-11/05 returns to life >> Finally, I have a choice of RX21 + RX02 or RX11 + RX01 >> ... is there any reason not to go with the RX21/RX02 combo? > > The only thing that pops into my mind is that RX211 uses > "DMA" and RX11 does not. That means that for the RX211, the > NPG chain must be cut (the wire between pins CA1-CB1) of > the slot that will have the RX211. For the RX11 that wire > must be present. If it is not, the system may hang. > That depends on whether the module connects these two pins. > Some SPC modules do this, some do not ... I have seen plenty of older quad SPCs that do not use NPR have a manually-added NPR jumper in case they are installed in a slot with the wire removed. Newer SPCs frequently had that in copper. I frequently get tripped up by this since where I learned about the Unibus, we routinely removed *all* NPR jumpers and used our own dual-height grant cards with NPR (and never used DEC G727 single-height INTR-only grants). It makes reconfiguration easy, until you get a fresh backplane in a BA-11 and can't figure out why things are hanging. > An other reason to go for RX02 is that with RX02 you can also > read RX01 formatted floppies. The RX02 drive has internally > a switch to act as an RX01. It is ovbious that you can not > read RX02 formatted floppies with the RX01 drive. > > And RX02 offers twice the capacity of RX01 ... > > If I am wrong in any of this, please correct me :-) Nope... all correct as far as I can see. -ethan From quapla at xs4all.nl Fri Jan 9 14:38:48 2009 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 21:38:48 +0100 (CET) Subject: NCCC - Sunfire V100 / Solaris Message-ID: <18141.62.140.137.30.1231533528.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Tom, Best way is to install Solrais 8, 9 or 10. Then install the SUNWlomu, SUNWlomr & SUNWlomm packages followed by patch 110208-22. Then use the lom tool to manipulate the lom config to your likings. BTW, the patch has the latest firmware for the lom, so you can also upgrade it if wanted. Regards, Ed > Sorry about the lack of true classic computing content to this > question, but it does relate to a little bit older machine, a > Sunfire V100... > > I purchased one of these from eBay in hopes of possibly upgrading > my home firewall and discovered that the machine has a Lights-Out- > Management (LOM) CPU controlling the main UltraSPARC IIi processor. > The LOM runs a monitor program (LOMlite) which on this particular > machine is currently configured to require a login/password when > communicating with the machine over the console serial port. > >>From seemingly endless google searching, it sounds like I should be > able to break out of the LOMlite login/password cycle by resetting > the machine with the JP13 jumper. When I do this, LOM is reset, a > few seemingly ok diagnostic messages are emitted, and then the login > password are again requested. > > I was unable to determine if there is some sort of default login > password. > > The only path seems to be to possibly load the PATA IDE hard drive > with Solaris, and then use the Solaris tools to reset the LOM setup. > > Does anyone on this list have any experience with this machine? > > --tnx > --tom > From uban at ubanproductions.com Fri Jan 9 14:44:49 2009 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 14:44:49 -0600 Subject: NCCC - Sunfire V100 / Solaris In-Reply-To: <18141.62.140.137.30.1231533528.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <18141.62.140.137.30.1231533528.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4967B741.4060201@ubanproductions.com> Ed, Thanks, I new somebody on this list would have something useful to say about this problem. I ordered a copy of Solaris 10 with this in mind and so my last questions (at this time) are will I be able to use the installation CD without knowing the LOMlite login and password? Will it boot the CD by default when I manually power on the machine? Will I be able see and control the console? --tnx --tom Ed Groenenberg wrote: > Tom, > > Best way is to install Solrais 8, 9 or 10. > Then install the SUNWlomu, SUNWlomr & SUNWlomm packages > followed by patch 110208-22. Then use the lom tool to > manipulate the lom config to your likings. > BTW, the patch has the latest firmware for the lom, so you > can also upgrade it if wanted. > > Regards, > > Ed > >> Sorry about the lack of true classic computing content to this >> question, but it does relate to a little bit older machine, a >> Sunfire V100... >> >> I purchased one of these from eBay in hopes of possibly upgrading >> my home firewall and discovered that the machine has a Lights-Out- >> Management (LOM) CPU controlling the main UltraSPARC IIi processor. >> The LOM runs a monitor program (LOMlite) which on this particular >> machine is currently configured to require a login/password when >> communicating with the machine over the console serial port. >> >> >From seemingly endless google searching, it sounds like I should be >> able to break out of the LOMlite login/password cycle by resetting >> the machine with the JP13 jumper. When I do this, LOM is reset, a >> few seemingly ok diagnostic messages are emitted, and then the login >> password are again requested. >> >> I was unable to determine if there is some sort of default login >> password. >> >> The only path seems to be to possibly load the PATA IDE hard drive >> with Solaris, and then use the Solaris tools to reset the LOM setup. >> >> Does anyone on this list have any experience with this machine? >> >> --tnx >> --tom >> > > > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jan 9 14:55:31 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 15:55:31 -0500 Subject: Memory/cache on the 11/70 In-Reply-To: <7B616B69-5B4B-468E-BB04-A68EA50D3D70@neurotica.com> References: <495A0906.6050206@softjar.se> <495BB942.9030409@jetnet.ab.ca> <03bb01c96b82$6f22ec50$46fea8c0@DeskJara> <200901090347.12788.rtellason@verizon.net> <7B616B69-5B4B-468E-BB04-A68EA50D3D70@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 9, 2009 at 11:19 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jan 9, 2009, at 3:47 AM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> 32kx8 sounds like a real handy size for some of the things that I'd like >> to do, with z80 and similar 8-bit parts. >> >> Any suggestions as to where I might find some welcomed. I have 2kx8 and >> 8kx8 parts, but nothing bigger. >> >> Maybe I should look on my old 486 boards? > > Why bother? 6264 and 62256 chips are extremely common and much more > "standard". They go for a few dollars a tube all day long on eBay. And, > should you ever decide to "go that way" with a design, they're also readily > available in SMT packages. True. > Standard chips good. Weird chips from the PC world, bad. I'm not advocating the reuse of SMT 128K cache chips, but the 32Kx8 DIP chips from old motherboards have a JEDEC-compatible pinout (they might designate various data or address bits in a different order, but for RAM it's irrelevant), and are only 0.3" wide (meaning you can use two 14-pin sockets rather than having to buy yet another footprint). I've seen more than one hobby design that had a 0.6" footprint for a 62256 _and_ narrow pads for a 0.3"-cache SRAM (and even with SMT pads inside that). It's possible to be flexible for no significant extra effort. The DIP cache SRAMs are no longer cheap-as-chips, but some of us have a tube or two stashed away and I sure don't mind using them for non-battery-powered circuits. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 9 15:03:34 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 16:03:34 -0500 Subject: Memory/cache on the 11/70 In-Reply-To: References: <495A0906.6050206@softjar.se> <495BB942.9030409@jetnet.ab.ca> <03bb01c96b82$6f22ec50$46fea8c0@DeskJara> <200901090347.12788.rtellason@verizon.net> <7B616B69-5B4B-468E-BB04-A68EA50D3D70@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <0E94B9EF-6A41-476A-8944-50B90E4B7AE7@neurotica.com> On Jan 9, 2009, at 3:55 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> Standard chips good. Weird chips from the PC world, bad. > > I'm not advocating the reuse of SMT 128K cache chips, but the 32Kx8 > DIP chips from old motherboards have a JEDEC-compatible pinout (they > might designate various data or address bits in a different order, but > for RAM it's irrelevant), and are only 0.3" wide (meaning you can use > two 14-pin sockets rather than having to buy yet another footprint). Hence, they're not "weird chips". =) It's the weird ones I'm worried about. > I've seen more than one hobby design that had a 0.6" footprint for a > 62256 _and_ narrow pads for a 0.3"-cache SRAM (and even with SMT pads > inside that). It's possible to be flexible for no significant extra > effort. That's very nice indeed. > The DIP cache SRAMs are no longer cheap-as-chips, but some of us have > a tube or two stashed away and I sure don't mind using them for > non-battery-powered circuits. The JEDEC ones, or the "weird" ones? I see some from time to time, and I grab them if they're "standard" enough. I got a pair of really 20ns nice cache SRAMs on eBay last year, Paradigm PDM41256SAs. Despite their seemingly familiar part number, they are 32kx8 SRAMs, not 256kx1 DRAMs. They're in 0.3" ceramic 24-pin DIPs. I'm saving them for a "pretty" Z80 SBC that I'll be building soon, on which all chips are ceramic. (I've always had a great love for ceramic chip packages, and I grab useful ceramic-packed chips whenever I can) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From quapla at xs4all.nl Fri Jan 9 15:18:34 2009 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 22:18:34 +0100 (CET) Subject: NCCC - Sunfire V100 / Solaris Message-ID: <4487.62.140.137.30.1231535914.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Hello Tom, you do not really need the lom, just use the button on the back to power it on. You could also go to 'docs.sun.com' there's a ton of documentation. Take a look at book '816-2756' this should bring you up to speed. I use a V120, but it's been a while since I had to fiddle around with the lom Regards, Ed > Ed, > > Thanks, I new somebody on this list would have something useful > to say about this problem. I ordered a copy of Solaris 10 with > this in mind and so my last questions (at this time) are will I be > able to use the installation CD without knowing the LOMlite login > and password? Will it boot the CD by default when I manually power > on the machine? Will I be able see and control the console? > > --tnx > --tom > > Ed Groenenberg wrote: >> Tom, >> >> Best way is to install Solrais 8, 9 or 10. >> Then install the SUNWlomu, SUNWlomr & SUNWlomm packages >> followed by patch 110208-22. Then use the lom tool to >> manipulate the lom config to your likings. >> BTW, the patch has the latest firmware for the lom, so you >> can also upgrade it if wanted. >> >> Regards, >> >> Ed >> >>> Sorry about the lack of true classic computing content to this >>> question, but it does relate to a little bit older machine, a >>> Sunfire V100... >>> >>> I purchased one of these from eBay in hopes of possibly upgrading >>> my home firewall and discovered that the machine has a Lights-Out- >>> Management (LOM) CPU controlling the main UltraSPARC IIi processor. >>> The LOM runs a monitor program (LOMlite) which on this particular >>> machine is currently configured to require a login/password when >>> communicating with the machine over the console serial port. >>> >>> >From seemingly endless google searching, it sounds like I should be >>> able to break out of the LOMlite login/password cycle by resetting >>> the machine with the JP13 jumper. When I do this, LOM is reset, a >>> few seemingly ok diagnostic messages are emitted, and then the login >>> password are again requested. >>> >>> I was unable to determine if there is some sort of default login >>> password. >>> >>> The only path seems to be to possibly load the PATA IDE hard drive >>> with Solaris, and then use the Solaris tools to reset the LOM setup. >>> >>> Does anyone on this list have any experience with this machine? >>> >>> --tnx >>> --tom >>> >> >> >> >> > > From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Jan 9 15:21:56 2009 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 15:21:56 -0600 Subject: DEC Direct Sales Catalog In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730901072054o4cc5c74fi5143905821fc145@mail.gmail.com> <49661E85.7030108@pacbell.net> <49662EF8.7080109@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <51ea77730901091321t57df77a8see9e6f080d6c24d1@mail.gmail.com> Sooo......no one has this book out there, then? If not, I will consider it at least "rare" and do what I can to preserve it as intact as possible. We have a print shop at work that could probably rebind it for me, although I'd still consider that sub-optimal, as I would lose the spine printing, but it may be the best I can do. I think the info contained in this catalog is valuable enough to the DEC collector community that it warrants it. As for automated book scanning, that is not in my budget, nor do I have the lego skills required ;) Is there a master list of documentation archive sites out there somewhere? There is bitsavers, vt100.net, 1000bit, and at least a couple others I've seen mentioned on this list. Perhaps someone should start a Wikipedia article or something similarly centralized so such a list could be collected. It would be handy not only for the obvious, but also for folks like me to make sure that they are not re-scanning something that's already out there. From uban at ubanproductions.com Fri Jan 9 15:27:48 2009 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 15:27:48 -0600 Subject: NCCC - Sunfire V100 / Solaris In-Reply-To: <4487.62.140.137.30.1231535914.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <4487.62.140.137.30.1231535914.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4967C154.1030700@ubanproductions.com> Hi Ed, How do I access the Solaris console without going through LOM? Best, --tom Ed Groenenberg wrote: > Hello Tom, > > you do not really need the lom, just use the button on the back > to power it on. > You could also go to 'docs.sun.com' there's a ton of documentation. > Take a look at book '816-2756' this should bring you up to speed. > > I use a V120, but it's been a while since I had to fiddle around > with the lom > > Regards, > > Ed > >> Ed, >> >> Thanks, I new somebody on this list would have something useful >> to say about this problem. I ordered a copy of Solaris 10 with >> this in mind and so my last questions (at this time) are will I be >> able to use the installation CD without knowing the LOMlite login >> and password? Will it boot the CD by default when I manually power >> on the machine? Will I be able see and control the console? >> >> --tnx >> --tom >> >> Ed Groenenberg wrote: >>> Tom, >>> >>> Best way is to install Solrais 8, 9 or 10. >>> Then install the SUNWlomu, SUNWlomr & SUNWlomm packages >>> followed by patch 110208-22. Then use the lom tool to >>> manipulate the lom config to your likings. >>> BTW, the patch has the latest firmware for the lom, so you >>> can also upgrade it if wanted. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Ed >>> >>>> Sorry about the lack of true classic computing content to this >>>> question, but it does relate to a little bit older machine, a >>>> Sunfire V100... >>>> >>>> I purchased one of these from eBay in hopes of possibly upgrading >>>> my home firewall and discovered that the machine has a Lights-Out- >>>> Management (LOM) CPU controlling the main UltraSPARC IIi processor. >>>> The LOM runs a monitor program (LOMlite) which on this particular >>>> machine is currently configured to require a login/password when >>>> communicating with the machine over the console serial port. >>>> >>>> >From seemingly endless google searching, it sounds like I should be >>>> able to break out of the LOMlite login/password cycle by resetting >>>> the machine with the JP13 jumper. When I do this, LOM is reset, a >>>> few seemingly ok diagnostic messages are emitted, and then the login >>>> password are again requested. >>>> >>>> I was unable to determine if there is some sort of default login >>>> password. >>>> >>>> The only path seems to be to possibly load the PATA IDE hard drive >>>> with Solaris, and then use the Solaris tools to reset the LOM setup. >>>> >>>> Does anyone on this list have any experience with this machine? >>>> >>>> --tnx >>>> --tom >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > > > From ray at arachelian.com Fri Jan 9 15:44:33 2009 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 16:44:33 -0500 Subject: Mac 400k floppy drive alignment? In-Reply-To: References: <49611D16.9040802@mail.msu.edu> <4965A906.2020005@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4967C541.8040102@arachelian.com> Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Josh Dersch > Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 11:20 PM > > >> Thanks for the advice. After a few hours' fiddling I've got the drive >> reading/writing reliably. Now to find some 400k images of mac software >> that'll run on a 128k :). >> > > One of these days one of my tuits will be other than rhomboidal, and I'll put > System 7.5 on the 6100 in my storage locker (since that's the last version of > Mac OS that will deal with 400K disks) to run disk copy Untrue. I've both created and read 400K disk images with Disk Copy (and DART) on various PPC machines running upto OS 9. This includes some Powerbooks as well as a TAM and and 7100. You do not need System 7.5. All that's required is Disk Copy and a SuperDrive or 800K floppy drive. (USB floppy drives will not work.) If you wish to read the files on MFS you need System 6 (or MFS lives on OS X). From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jan 9 15:56:44 2009 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 15:56:44 -0600 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20090109155553.07c6f4d0@mail.threedee.com> http://ztrek.blogspot.com/2008/12/dr-dobbs-soon-to-become-monthly-section.html - John From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jan 9 16:59:39 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 17:59:39 -0500 Subject: Memory/cache on the 11/70 In-Reply-To: <0E94B9EF-6A41-476A-8944-50B90E4B7AE7@neurotica.com> References: <495A0906.6050206@softjar.se> <495BB942.9030409@jetnet.ab.ca> <03bb01c96b82$6f22ec50$46fea8c0@DeskJara> <200901090347.12788.rtellason@verizon.net> <7B616B69-5B4B-468E-BB04-A68EA50D3D70@neurotica.com> <0E94B9EF-6A41-476A-8944-50B90E4B7AE7@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 9, 2009 at 4:03 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jan 9, 2009, at 3:55 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> >>> Standard chips good. Weird chips from the PC world, bad. >> >> I'm not advocating the reuse of SMT 128K cache chips, but the 32Kx8 >> DIP chips from old motherboards have a JEDEC-compatible pinout... > > Hence, they're not "weird chips". =) It's the weird ones I'm worried > about. OK. I think we are on the same side here ;-) >> I've seen more than one hobby design that had a 0.6" footprint for a >> 62256 _and_ narrow pads for a 0.3"-cache SRAM (and even with SMT pads >> inside that). It's possible to be flexible for no significant extra >> effort. > > That's very nice indeed. Yeah... the one that comes to mind with three footprints is a common-in-the-CBM-world hobby add-on that sits in the 6502 socket and provides up to 32K of RAM and up to 32K of (flash) ROM for use in 8K PETs, 1541 drives, or pretty much most of the 8-bit CBM line. It's great for multiple ROM sets, bypassing C= drilled "upgrade prevention" holes in 16/32K boards, flaky RAM or ROM sockets, etc. For the RAM bit, just pick your footprint and drop in a RAM chip. >> The DIP cache SRAMs are no longer cheap-as-chips, but some of us have >> a tube or two stashed away and I sure don't mind using them for >> non-battery-powered circuits. > > The JEDEC ones, or the "weird" ones? JEDEC ones - I don't have the time to untangle wierd ones. > I see some from time to time, and I > grab them if they're "standard" enough. I got a pair of really 20ns nice > cache SRAMs on eBay last year, Paradigm PDM41256SAs. Despite their > seemingly familiar part number, they are 32kx8 SRAMs, not 256kx1 DRAMs. > They're in 0.3" ceramic 24-pin DIPs. I'm saving them for a "pretty" Z80 > SBC that I'll be building soon, on which all chips are ceramic. (I've > always had a great love for ceramic chip packages, and I grab useful > ceramic-packed chips whenever I can) Nice. Sounds like it'll have great presentation value. You have purple ceramic for the VLSI or just grey? -ethan > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > > From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Jan 9 17:00:33 2009 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 18:00:33 -0500 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20090109155553.07c6f4d0@mail.threedee.com> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20090109155553.07c6f4d0@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: <24517.1231542033@mini> John Foust wrote: > >http://ztrek.blogspot.com/2008/12/dr-dobbs-soon-to-become-monthly-section.html sad, but not surprising. it was getting thinner and thinner. I remember the first few newsprint editions. It inspired me to stop by the PCC on a trip out to the west coast. I'll never forget the pilot interpreter written in basic, the source printed for anyone to read. I found it inspiring at the time. I'm going to miss the last page. Almost as much fun as reading Mac the knife in MacWeek or Cringely's column (or worse, being *in* them :-) Michael Swaine was always fun to talk to at parties. -brad From jtp at chinalake.com Fri Jan 9 17:17:36 2009 From: jtp at chinalake.com (J. Peterson) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 18:17:36 -0500 Subject: 2 DLT III cleaning tapes free for the cost of shipping In-Reply-To: <200901090613.n096DohX074368@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901090613.n096DohX074368@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4967DB10.3090201@chinalake.com> Two DLT III cleaning tapes. One has been used once (on a clean drive), the other is unused as far as I know. Free for the cost of shipping from US 01888. Cheers, -J From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 9 17:35:53 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 15:35:53 -0800 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: <24517.1231542033@mini> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20090109155553.07c6f4d0@mail.threedee.com>, <24517.1231542033@mini> Message-ID: <49676ED9.29118.DE7353@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Jan 2009 at 18:00, Brad Parker wrote: > > John Foust wrote: > > > >http://ztrek.blogspot.com/2008/12/dr-dobbs-soon-to-become-monthly-section.html > > sad, but not surprising. it was getting thinner and thinner. The same can be said for most trade journals. EDN, Electronic Design, EETimes are all shadows of their former glory. Didn't WDJ get rolled into DDJ some time ago? It's been some time since I've read one anyway... Cheers, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 9 18:33:58 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 19:33:58 -0500 Subject: Memory/cache on the 11/70 In-Reply-To: References: <495A0906.6050206@softjar.se> <495BB942.9030409@jetnet.ab.ca> <03bb01c96b82$6f22ec50$46fea8c0@DeskJara> <200901090347.12788.rtellason@verizon.net> <7B616B69-5B4B-468E-BB04-A68EA50D3D70@neurotica.com> <0E94B9EF-6A41-476A-8944-50B90E4B7AE7@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <08724E72-38B8-4CAE-B8D3-543762C5007C@neurotica.com> On Jan 9, 2009, at 5:59 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>>> Standard chips good. Weird chips from the PC world, bad. >>> >>> I'm not advocating the reuse of SMT 128K cache chips, but the 32Kx8 >>> DIP chips from old motherboards have a JEDEC-compatible pinout... >> >> Hence, they're not "weird chips". =) It's the weird ones I'm >> worried >> about. > > OK. I think we are on the same side here ;-) We usually are. :) >>> The DIP cache SRAMs are no longer cheap-as-chips, but some of us >>> have >>> a tube or two stashed away and I sure don't mind using them for >>> non-battery-powered circuits. >> >> The JEDEC ones, or the "weird" ones? > > JEDEC ones - I don't have the time to untangle wierd ones. Yeah. The weird SRAMs that the SBC6120 uses are PC cache chips too, aren't they? They've become pretty tough to find in recent years. I really like that they're four bits wide, though, for that application. >> I see some from time to time, and I >> grab them if they're "standard" enough. I got a pair of really >> 20ns nice >> cache SRAMs on eBay last year, Paradigm PDM41256SAs. Despite their >> seemingly familiar part number, they are 32kx8 SRAMs, not 256kx1 >> DRAMs. >> They're in 0.3" ceramic 24-pin DIPs. I'm saving them for a >> "pretty" Z80 >> SBC that I'll be building soon, on which all chips are ceramic. >> (I've >> always had a great love for ceramic chip packages, and I grab useful >> ceramic-packed chips whenever I can) > > Nice. Sounds like it'll have great presentation value. Thanks, I think so too. And it'll weigh a few pounds! :) > You have purple ceramic for the VLSI or just grey? I've got the Z80 CPU, CTC, SIO, and PIO chips in purple/gold. I've got some purple/gold SRAMs, but not quite enough for this project. Chuck has some medium-density purple/gold 16Kbx1 SRAMs that I'm thinking about trying to talk him out of. If I don't go that route, I'll probably use those Paradigm gray ceramic SRAMs. I'll do the address decoding and other sundry stuff in a ceramic UV-erasable PAL22V10, of which I have a few tubes. I also have some HP intelligent hex displays, along the lines of the TIL-311, I'm sure you've seen them. Most of them are encapsulated in red injection-molded plastic, but I have a handful of fairly rare 5082-7359s, which are hermetically-sealed purple ceramic with a glass cover. They are absolutely gorgeous. I'll probably put the board between two 0.25" pieces of lucite. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bryan.pope at comcast.net Sat Jan 10 00:05:30 2009 From: bryan.pope at comcast.net (Bryan Pope) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 01:05:30 -0500 Subject: Arcades becoming extinct.. Message-ID: <49683AAA.8040809@comcast.net> .. if they haven't already! :-( I used to always go to this arcade when I was in Toronto (Funland Arcade on Younge Street)... http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_19730.aspx Now its gone.. :-( http://arcadeheroes.com/2008/07/10/funland-arcade-in-toronto-canada-closing-in-a-few-days-hurry-if-you-want-to-play-a-game-there/ http://www.thestar.com/comment/columnists/article/453843 Syd Bolton of the Personal Computer Museum ( http://www.pcmuseum.ca/ ) of Brantford, Ontario on the last day: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxA2WRqtUkk Cheers, Bryan From evan at snarc.net Sat Jan 10 01:36:57 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 07:36:57 +0000 Subject: Arcades becoming extinct.. Message-ID: <2039849250-1231573022-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1564703413-@bxe146.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Sad indeed. Brings back happy memories though of my own childhood arcade in a room at the local bowling alley. The arcade is long gone ... and the bowling alley is a Pathmark. Mark my words ... if MARCH ever gets massive H-building space and a steady stream of visitors, then there shall be a legit arcade room!!! ------Original Message------ From: Bryan Pope Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts ReplyTo: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Arcades becoming extinct.. Sent: Jan 10, 2009 1:05 AM .. if they haven't already! :-( I used to always go to this arcade when I was in Toronto (Funland Arcade on Younge Street)... http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_19730.aspx Now its gone.. :-( http://arcadeheroes.com/2008/07/10/funland-arcade-in-toronto-canada-closing-in-a-few-days-hurry-if-you-want-to-play-a-game-there/ http://www.thestar.com/comment/columnists/article/453843 Syd Bolton of the Personal Computer Museum ( http://www.pcmuseum.ca/ ) of Brantford, Ontario on the last day: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxA2WRqtUkk Cheers, Bryan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Jan 10 01:57:32 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 02:57:32 -0500 Subject: Memory/cache on the 11/70 In-Reply-To: <08724E72-38B8-4CAE-B8D3-543762C5007C@neurotica.com> References: <495A0906.6050206@softjar.se> <495BB942.9030409@jetnet.ab.ca> <03bb01c96b82$6f22ec50$46fea8c0@DeskJara> <200901090347.12788.rtellason@verizon.net> <7B616B69-5B4B-468E-BB04-A68EA50D3D70@neurotica.com> <0E94B9EF-6A41-476A-8944-50B90E4B7AE7@neurotica.com> <08724E72-38B8-4CAE-B8D3-543762C5007C@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 9, 2009 at 7:33 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > Yeah. The weird SRAMs that the SBC6120 uses are PC cache chips too, aren't > they? They've become pretty tough to find in recent years. I really like > that they're four bits wide, though, for that application. Those are wierd... I don't think I ever saw a PC motherboard with them, but I really kinda skipped from 8088 boards right to the 486. I think I only had one or two 386s, so there's a gap there for me. > I also have some HP intelligent hex displays, along the lines of the > TIL-311, I'm sure you've seen them. Oh, yeah... I got my start back in the COSMAC Elf days. I have many TIL311s and a few of the HP varieties, too. > Most of them are encapsulated in red > injection-molded plastic, but I have a handful of fairly rare 5082-7359s, > which are hermetically-sealed purple ceramic with a glass cover. They are > absolutely gorgeous. Sounds like. I don't know that I've ever seen that package. > I'll probably put the board between two 0.25" pieces of lucite. Sweet. -ethan From starbase89 at gmail.com Sat Jan 10 03:18:33 2009 From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 04:18:33 -0500 Subject: Arcades becoming extinct.. In-Reply-To: <2039849250-1231573022-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1564703413-@bxe146.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <2039849250-1231573022-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1564703413-@bxe146.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <2b1f1f550901100118t4a4a41f3x10eb315976a7417e@mail.gmail.com> That would be awesome (if MARCH ever got enough money) There really aren't any well known arcade machines that are in any way affordable. A complete, non working Ms. PacMan, for example, still goes for between $400-$500. On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 2:36 AM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Sad indeed. Brings back happy memories though of my own childhood arcade in > a room at the local bowling alley. The arcade is long gone ... and the > bowling alley is a Pathmark. > > Mark my words ... if MARCH ever gets massive H-building space and a steady > stream of visitors, then there shall be a legit arcade room!!! > > ------Original Message------ > From: Bryan Pope > Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > ReplyTo: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Arcades becoming extinct.. > Sent: Jan 10, 2009 1:05 AM > > .. if they haven't already! :-( > > I used to always go to this arcade when I was in Toronto (Funland Arcade > on Younge Street)... > > http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_19730.aspx > > Now its gone.. :-( > > > http://arcadeheroes.com/2008/07/10/funland-arcade-in-toronto-canada-closing-in-a-few-days-hurry-if-you-want-to-play-a-game-there/ > http://www.thestar.com/comment/columnists/article/453843 > > Syd Bolton of the Personal Computer Museum ( http://www.pcmuseum.ca/ ) > of Brantford, Ontario on the last day: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxA2WRqtUkk > > Cheers, > > Bryan > > > > -- "You work with your females, arm them, and force them to wear clothing!" From jgessling at yahoo.com Sat Jan 10 04:21:12 2009 From: jgessling at yahoo.com (James Gessling) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 02:21:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Arcades becoming extinct.. Message-ID: <700230.48631.qm@web31913.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I found one that is alive and well last summer in Swakopmund, Namibia. Great combination of laundrette, bar, and arcade. You can search the internet for "Swakopmund Laundry" if you want more information. Regards, Jim From dstorey at barossafarm.com Fri Jan 9 01:06:17 2009 From: dstorey at barossafarm.com (dstorey at barossafarm.com) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 07:06:17 -0000 (UTC) Subject: RT11 5.07 Message-ID: <34598.83.217.164.110.1231484777.squirrel@www.barossafarm.com> Hi It's been 10 years since Digital ->Compaq ->HP ->Mentec ->Calyx stopped selling RT11. I have been trying to get hold of RT11 v5.07 for hobbyist use. I contacted Calyx, Ireland who told me that they no longer license it and that I should make contact the various groups to see if anyone can help me on an individual (non commercial) basis. Thanks Dominic (pdp11 at barossafarm.com) From jrr at flippers.com Fri Jan 9 11:37:58 2009 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 09:37:58 -0800 Subject: Membrane keyboard connector repair advice? (Osborne 1) In-Reply-To: <4966F9A6.4030508@mail.msu.edu> References: <4965AC53.7040506@mail.msu.edu> <4966F9A6.4030508@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <49678B76.5010108@flippers.com> Josh Dersch wrote: > Steven Hirsch wrote: >> On Wed, 7 Jan 2009, Josh Dersch wrote: >> >>> Yet another small repair question -- >>> >>> Picked up an Osborne 1 with a non-functional keyboard. Upon opening >>> it, I found that one of the plastic/membrane keyboard ribbon >>> connectors had cracked partially through near where it plugs into >>> the PCB. >>> >>> Since these ribbons are actually part of the membrane of the >>> keyboard I can't just replace the cracked ribbon -- so the only >>> option appears to be to re-cut the end of the ribbon cable and >>> expose a bit of the conductive material. What's the recommended >>> means to expose the conductive stripes at the end? I've tried gently >>> scraping with the tip of an x-acto knife but it either does nothing >>> or takes everything off the end :). >> >> Are you sure the ribbon is actually a "sandwich"? My Tandy CoCos and >> Atari 800XL units have a similar flex ribbon where the conductors are >> on the top surface. I've been able to simply cut them back and >> reinsert the remainder. (I initially went down the same path and >> tried scraping them - with similar results ). >> >> Steve >> > It's not a sandwich, but there's definitely some sort of coating over > the conductive stripes -- I get nothing out of my continuity tester by > touching the probes on opposite ends of a given stripe. Hmm. > > Josh > > I have used car rear window defroster repair conductive liquid to fix these in the past - assuming you can get down to the conductive layer. Try punching a number of holes through the insulation with a sharp pin, then squeezing the conductive liquid into the holes in an effort to make a few paths of connection. Possibly sewing fine wire through the holes... There are also PCB repair pens that contain silver that you can draw in thin lines. CircuitWorks is one maker and a quick search turned up http://www.electroniccity.com/brands/32.asp as one supplier. You can now take a similar width (or wider and cut to size) scrap conductive strip and join it to your defective one to gain length... John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From philip at axeside.co.uk Fri Jan 9 14:32:52 2009 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 20:32:52 +0000 Subject: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: <49665BB7.8090105@axeside.co.uk> References: <495D3668.8010202@jbrain.com> <495D3AAA.1000509@jbrain.com> <49665BB7.8090105@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: <4967B474.4060604@axeside.co.uk> Apologies for replying to my own post, but... > Commodore drives do some strange things with GPIB addressing. Bit 7 > isn't supposed to be used, but I think Commodore use it to add a flag to > the primary address when opening files. ISTR they may even use bit 6 > this way, thus preventing you from having a device at (disk drive)+16. If I had engaged brain before opening text editor, I would have realised that this is bit 4 that is being misused. Bits 5 and 6 are correctly used to say what sort of address it is - talk, listen, secondary. Philip. From ragooman at comcast.net Sat Jan 10 08:45:57 2009 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 09:45:57 -0500 Subject: Arcades becoming extinct.. In-Reply-To: <49683AAA.8040809@comcast.net> References: <49683AAA.8040809@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4968B4A5.6050102@comcast.net> Bryan Pope wrote: > .. if they haven't already! :-( > > I used to always go to this arcade when I was in Toronto (Funland > Arcade on Younge Street)... > > http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_19730.aspx > > Now its gone.. :-( > > http://arcadeheroes.com/2008/07/10/funland-arcade-in-toronto-canada-closing-in-a-few-days-hurry-if-you-want-to-play-a-game-there/ > > http://www.thestar.com/comment/columnists/article/453843 > > Syd Bolton of the Personal Computer Museum ( http://www.pcmuseum.ca/ ) > of Brantford, Ontario on the last day: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxA2WRqtUkk > The arcades of today may be disappearing, but the arcades of yesterday are actually on the rise. We have 3 here already in Pittsburgh with a lot of the original arcades, digital _and_mechanical, including pinballs, bowlers, baseball and shooting arcades. There's a few cities with some more, I haven't cataloged them all yet. =Dan [ = http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] From shoppa at trailing-edge.com Sat Jan 10 09:01:30 2009 From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 10:01:30 -0500 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? Message-ID: <20090110150130.C5A5FBA4DA5@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Dr. Dobbs was pretty cool... up until the IBM PC came out and dominated everything. By the mid 80's all the Dr. Dobbs articles were the-latest-TSR-to-do-something-in-MSDOS and it wasn't really worth the effort for me to even look for something interesting in it. That may have marked my turning point towards classic computing, in fact :-). Tim. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Jan 10 10:03:47 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 08:03:47 -0800 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: <20090110150130.C5A5FBA4DA5@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20090110150130.C5A5FBA4DA5@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 10:01:30 -0500 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com > Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? > > Dr. Dobbs was pretty cool... up until the IBM PC came out and > dominated everything. By the mid 80's all the Dr. Dobbs articles > were the-latest-TSR-to-do-something-in-MSDOS and it wasn't really > worth the effort for me to even look for something interesting > in it. That may have marked my turning point towards classic > computing, in fact :-). > > Tim. Hi I had similar feelings. When I wrote them and said that their articles were becoming less and less interesting, they told me that they felt that their readers were becoming more interested in such. They lost what it was that made the magazine unique from the others. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live? Hotmail?: Chat. Store. Share. Do more with mail. http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_hm_justgotbetter_howitworks_012009 From quapla at xs4all.nl Sat Jan 10 10:35:35 2009 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 17:35:35 +0100 (CET) Subject: NCCC - Sunfire V100 / Solaris Message-ID: <17554.62.140.137.30.1231605335.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Hello Tom, If I'm not mistaken, the serial B can also be used. Regards, Ed > Hi Ed, > > How do I access the Solaris console without going through LOM? > > Best, > > --tom > > Ed Groenenberg wrote: >> Hello Tom, >> >> you do not really need the lom, just use the button on the back >> to power it on. >> You could also go to 'docs.sun.com' there's a ton of documentation. >> Take a look at book '816-2756' this should bring you up to speed. >> >> I use a V120, but it's been a while since I had to fiddle around >> with the lom >> >> Regards, >> >> Ed >> >>> Ed, >>> >>> Thanks, I new somebody on this list would have something useful >>> to say about this problem. I ordered a copy of Solaris 10 with >>> this in mind and so my last questions (at this time) are will I be >>> able to use the installation CD without knowing the LOMlite login >>> and password? Will it boot the CD by default when I manually power >>> on the machine? Will I be able see and control the console? >>> >>> --tnx >>> --tom >>> >>> Ed Groenenberg wrote: >>>> Tom, >>>> >>>> Best way is to install Solrais 8, 9 or 10. >>>> Then install the SUNWlomu, SUNWlomr & SUNWlomm packages >>>> followed by patch 110208-22. Then use the lom tool to >>>> manipulate the lom config to your likings. >>>> BTW, the patch has the latest firmware for the lom, so you >>>> can also upgrade it if wanted. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Ed >>>> >>>>> Sorry about the lack of true classic computing content to this >>>>> question, but it does relate to a little bit older machine, a >>>>> Sunfire V100... >>>>> >>>>> I purchased one of these from eBay in hopes of possibly upgrading >>>>> my home firewall and discovered that the machine has a Lights-Out- >>>>> Management (LOM) CPU controlling the main UltraSPARC IIi processor. >>>>> The LOM runs a monitor program (LOMlite) which on this particular >>>>> machine is currently configured to require a login/password when >>>>> communicating with the machine over the console serial port. >>>>> >>>>> >From seemingly endless google searching, it sounds like I should be >>>>> able to break out of the LOMlite login/password cycle by resetting >>>>> the machine with the JP13 jumper. When I do this, LOM is reset, a >>>>> few seemingly ok diagnostic messages are emitted, and then the login >>>>> password are again requested. >>>>> >>>>> I was unable to determine if there is some sort of default login >>>>> password. >>>>> >>>>> The only path seems to be to possibly load the PATA IDE hard drive >>>>> with Solaris, and then use the Solaris tools to reset the LOM setup. >>>>> >>>>> Does anyone on this list have any experience with this machine? >>>>> >>>>> --tnx >>>>> --tom >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > From feedle at feedle.net Sat Jan 10 10:53:56 2009 From: feedle at feedle.net (C. Sullivan) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 08:53:56 -0800 Subject: Arcades becoming extinct.. In-Reply-To: <4968B4A5.6050102@comcast.net> References: <49683AAA.8040809@comcast.net> <4968B4A5.6050102@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Jan 10, 2009, at 6:45 AM, Dan Roganti wrote: > The arcades of today may be disappearing, but the arcades of > yesterday are actually on the rise. We have 3 here already in > Pittsburgh with a lot of the original arcades, digital > _and_mechanical, including pinballs, bowlers, baseball and shooting > arcades. There's a few cities with some more, I haven't cataloged > them all yet. Portland (OR) has Ground Kontrol. Not only a great classic arcade, but they sell 8-bit era consoles and cartridges as well. http://www.groundkontrol.com/ From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Jan 10 10:57:51 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 16:57:51 +0000 Subject: KD-11F (11/03) in a BA11-N?? In-Reply-To: <020a01c97248$3ffd81c0$bff88540$@com> References: <00df01c971a5$5fcbe3f0$1f63abd0$@com> <4966652D.7090603@dunnington.plus.com> <020a01c97248$3ffd81c0$bff88540$@com> Message-ID: <4968D38F.9010509@dunnington.plus.com> On 09/01/2009 10:51, Bob Armstrong wrote: >> Peter Turnbull wrote: >> If you jumper the CPU to enter ODT instead of executing the bootstrap, >> what happens? > > You never get the ODT prompt (the "@"). Never get anything on the > console, FWIW. Hmm... could mean the console isn't accessible to the CPU (perhaps due to a memory conflict) but unlikely. Could mean the CPU is stuck in a "sunset" loop (an endless microcode loop that can't be broken out of, it continues "until the sun sets", ie until the power is cycled, or at least until BPOK is cycled). >> Or if you power things up with with the front panel set to HALT? > > Ditto. > >> If you attempt to execute the BDV11 bootstrap, what happens >> when it halts? Does the RUN light ever light, even briefly? What do >> the lights on the BDV11 show? > > The BDV11 shows all four LEDs on, and the RUN LED does blink momentarily > but then goes off. Then it's not executing the bootstrap; either it's HALTed or stuck in a microcode loop. The latter might happen if it can't access memory between 000000 and 000377, I think. What happens if you move everything down one slot, with the CPU in slot 2, and everything else below that? The RUN light won't work, but everything else should work just as if it were configured normally. At least, that would be true with any QBus processor except possibly yours. You might need to bridge CL1 to CK1 and DK1 to DL1 on slot 2 (or on the card), to make it work. I'm not sure if your M7264 actually needs those, I think they're something to do with RAM bias voltage, which shouldn't matter on a RAMless card. > So it's trapping immediately on startup. Either the CPU card is bad > (which I know isn't true) or it can't find any addressable RAM, or it can't > access the console SLU registers, or something is inhibiting the LSI11 from > running at all. I agree. I think you'll have to look at some of the backplane signals with a scope or logic probe to see what might be wrong. I'd check BREF and BDAL16,17 first, because these behave very differently between 11/03 and 11/23. They should all be high (inactive, logic 0) in this system. If BREF is low, this won't affect an 11/23 or LSI-11/2 but it might affect a quad LSI-11. Check BEVENT as well; while you're troubleshooting it wants to be off. Note that if you disable it by using the switch on the BDV11, that forces it on, which means the only interrupt line the KD11-F has is also always active. I know it's edge-triggered, but still... >> Do these same boards, in exactly this combination, work properly in the > BA11-M? > > Yep. And the same boards except the CPU, work in the same combination in > the BA11-N with a 11/23 CPU card. [It's one of the half sized 11/23 cards - > KDF11-A - without the onboard SLU and ROMs] > >> Exactly which version of the M7264 do you have? > > If you mean the rev level, that I don't know off hand. It's one of the > ones with no actual onboard RAM, though (it has the space for it; the RAM > chips just aren't populated). I believe that makes it a KD11-H, M7264-YA. However, I've seen very few M7264 LSI-11s, most of the 11/03s I've seen and all the ones I have had here, have had the later dual-height M7270 KD11-HA LSI-11/2. Although they share exactly the same microcode, I know the backplane connections aren't identical, but I don't know exactly what the differences are or how that might affect things. I'm afraid I'm at a bit of a loss to explain what's going on here. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Jan 10 11:02:40 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 09:02:40 -0800 Subject: Arcades becoming extinct.. In-Reply-To: <2b1f1f550901100118t4a4a41f3x10eb315976a7417e@mail.gmail.com> References: <2039849250-1231573022-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1564703413 -@bxe146.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <2b1f1f550901100118t4a4a41f3x10eb315976a7417e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 4:18 AM -0500 1/10/09, Joe Giliberti wrote: >That would be awesome (if MARCH ever got enough money) >There really aren't any well known arcade machines that are in any way >affordable. A complete, non working Ms. PacMan, for example, still goes for >between $400-$500. One option is a "Supergun" so you can just plug your JAMMA board into a TV. Another good option is something like a Neo Geo arcade machine. The advantage of Neo Geo systems and a couple others is that you have the basic cabinet and then swap out the games. Our Neo Geo is a 4-slot, and we have about 20 different games. Of course the best solution for at home is likely a MAME arcade machine. I know Fry's was selling one for a while. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From keithvz at verizon.net Sat Jan 10 11:28:34 2009 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 12:28:34 -0500 Subject: Arcades becoming extinct.. In-Reply-To: <4968B4A5.6050102@comcast.net> References: <49683AAA.8040809@comcast.net> <4968B4A5.6050102@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4968DAC2.1070606@verizon.net> Dan Roganti wrote: > > The arcades of today may be disappearing, but the arcades of yesterday > are actually on the rise. We have 3 here already in Pittsburgh with a > lot of the original arcades, digital _and_mechanical, including > pinballs, bowlers, baseball and shooting arcades. There's a few cities > with some more, I haven't cataloged them all yet. Did you have a list of those arcades in Pittsburgh on your website? I couldn't find them. I grew up in Pittsburgh with my parents taking us kids to the arcades, hanging out in arcades at night as a teenager, and so on. Maybe Dave and Busters qualifies as an arcade --- but I like the the old school retro games myself. (of which they have a few) > =Dan > > [ = http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] Hey, btw, I'm glad to see some of the various initiatives that you run/are involved with in Pittsburgh. Like the robotics club, vintage computer stuff, etc etc. Good job. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jan 10 11:36:19 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 12:36:19 -0500 Subject: Memory/cache on the 11/70 In-Reply-To: References: <495A0906.6050206@softjar.se> <495BB942.9030409@jetnet.ab.ca> <03bb01c96b82$6f22ec50$46fea8c0@DeskJara> <200901090347.12788.rtellason@verizon.net> <7B616B69-5B4B-468E-BB04-A68EA50D3D70@neurotica.com> <0E94B9EF-6A41-476A-8944-50B90E4B7AE7@neurotica.com> <08724E72-38B8-4CAE-B8D3-543762C5007C@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <967064C1-DD29-44CE-87E3-260F457A91BD@neurotica.com> On Jan 10, 2009, at 2:57 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> I also have some HP intelligent hex displays, along the lines of the >> TIL-311, I'm sure you've seen them. > > Oh, yeah... I got my start back in the COSMAC Elf days. I have many > TIL311s and a few of the HP varieties, too. Ahh yes, that's right. I really like those displays. >> Most of them are encapsulated in red >> injection-molded plastic, but I have a handful of fairly rare >> 5082-7359s, >> which are hermetically-sealed purple ceramic with a glass cover. >> They are >> absolutely gorgeous. > > Sounds like. I don't know that I've ever seen that package. Here's a pic: http://www.neurotica.com/misc/HP5082-7359.jpg -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From evan at snarc.net Sat Jan 10 12:04:42 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 18:04:42 +0000 Subject: Arcades becoming extinct.. Message-ID: <253021398-1231610681-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1222541691-@bxe146.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> >>> Mark my words ... if MARCH ever gets massive H-building space and a steady stream of visitors, then there shall be a legit arcade room!!! Oops. Thought the original message was on our local mailing list, not cctalk. Sorry for the insider chat. From evan at snarc.net Sat Jan 10 12:13:22 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 18:13:22 +0000 Subject: Arcades becoming extinct.. Message-ID: <1444421077-1231611201-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1752057319-@bxe146.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> >>> The arcades of today may be disappearing, but the arcades of yesterday are actually on the rise. There is an excellent "new school" store / arcade called Digital Press, located in Clifton, N.J. ... It's about a 45-minute drive from Newark Airport if anyone has a long layover and rental car. From scheefj at netscape.net Sat Jan 10 12:16:04 2009 From: scheefj at netscape.net (Jim Scheef) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 13:16:04 -0500 Subject: Arcades becoming extinct.. In-Reply-To: <4968B4A5.6050102@comcast.net> References: <49683AAA.8040809@comcast.net> <4968B4A5.6050102@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4968E5E4.1000202@netscape.net> Funny this should come up. I made one of my few trips to the Danbury Fair Mall during Chanakwanazmus shopping season and noticed that the arcade was gone - replaced by an equally useless gift shop that will fail in a few months. Personally I found it nice to be able to sit in that area (part of the food court near the antique merry-go-round) and not be bothered by the noise and running mall rats, but that's just me. :-) I do enjoy watching parents take their little kids on the merry-go-round. Jim Dan Roganti wrote: > > Bryan Pope wrote: >> .. if they haven't already! :-( >> >> I used to always go to this arcade when I was in Toronto (Funland >> Arcade on Younge Street)... >> >> http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_19730.aspx >> >> Now its gone.. :-( >> >> http://arcadeheroes.com/2008/07/10/funland-arcade-in-toronto-canada-closing-in-a-few-days-hurry-if-you-want-to-play-a-game-there/ >> >> http://www.thestar.com/comment/columnists/article/453843 >> >> Syd Bolton of the Personal Computer Museum ( http://www.pcmuseum.ca/ ) >> of Brantford, Ontario on the last day: >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxA2WRqtUkk >> > > The arcades of today may be disappearing, but the arcades of yesterday > are actually on the rise. We have 3 here already in Pittsburgh with a > lot of the original arcades, digital _and_mechanical, including > pinballs, bowlers, baseball and shooting arcades. There's a few cities > with some more, I haven't cataloged them all yet. > > =Dan > > [ = http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] > From scheefj at netscape.net Sat Jan 10 13:54:00 2009 From: scheefj at netscape.net (Jim Scheef) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 14:54:00 -0500 Subject: DEC Direct Sales Catalog In-Reply-To: <51ea77730901091321t57df77a8see9e6f080d6c24d1@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730901072054o4cc5c74fi5143905821fc145@mail.gmail.com> <49661E85.7030108@pacbell.net> <49662EF8.7080109@pacbell.net> <51ea77730901091321t57df77a8see9e6f080d6c24d1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4968FCD8.3000001@netscape.net> Jason, The DEC catalog is fairly common on eBay, coming up every month or so with later years more common than ones from the 70's. Mine is from January 1992 but my interests are VAXen and networking rather than PDPs. These books are invaluable for converting a DEC model number like DEMPR-AA into something helpful like "ThinWire Ethernet Multiport Repeater". Having this scanned will be helpful as a computer can search a PDF without wearing out the book. If "debinding" will facilitate the scanning then I would go for it. A list of archive sites would be helpful as the search engines don't seem to find them all (at least not when I'm searching). If people will send me lists of such sites, I'll put up a page on the MARCH site. Also, I've been planning a list of member's sites. Jim Jason T wrote: > Sooo......no one has this book out there, then? If not, I will > consider it at least "rare" and do what I can to preserve it as intact > as possible. We have a print shop at work that could probably rebind > it for me, although I'd still consider that sub-optimal, as I would > lose the spine printing, but it may be the best I can do. I think the > info contained in this catalog is valuable enough to the DEC collector > community that it warrants it. > > As for automated book scanning, that is not in my budget, nor do I > have the lego skills required ;) > > Is there a master list of documentation archive sites out there > somewhere? There is bitsavers, vt100.net, 1000bit, and at least a > couple others I've seen mentioned on this list. Perhaps someone > should start a Wikipedia article or something similarly centralized so > such a list could be collected. It would be handy not only for the > obvious, but also for folks like me to make sure that they are not > re-scanning something that's already out there. From scheefj at netscape.net Sat Jan 10 14:07:38 2009 From: scheefj at netscape.net (Jim Scheef) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 15:07:38 -0500 Subject: archive sites (was DEC Direct Sales Catalog) In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730901072054o4cc5c74fi5143905821fc145@mail.gmail.com> <49661E85.7030108@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <4969000A.8070503@netscape.net> Dave, You site is nice and will be very helpful as your content grows. Having those search terms on your search page, would be helpful, as would a hint that you support the Dewey Decimal System. Can someone search by ISBN as well? And let me echo the plea for some capitalization and punctuation in your posts. I don't think you are in any danger, but this list has banned people for less! Jim Dave Caroline wrote: > oops forgot the url > > http://www.archivist.info/collection/ > some search terms > im gets all instruction manuals > is gets all instruction and service > bk books > 005 is dewey for computing > my main collection is electronics and test equipment so computing is > buried a bit > > Dave Caroline From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sat Jan 10 15:51:30 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 19:51:30 -0200 Subject: Arcades becoming extinct.. References: <2039849250-1231573022-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1564703413-@bxe146.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><2b1f1f550901100118t4a4a41f3x10eb315976a7417e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <073a01c9736d$bb273c30$46fea8c0@DeskJara> > One option is a "Supergun" so you can just plug your JAMMA board into > a TV. Another good option is something like a Neo Geo arcade > machine. The advantage of Neo Geo systems and a couple others is > that you have the basic cabinet and then swap out the games. Our Neo > Geo is a 4-slot, and we have about 20 different games. > Of course the best solution for at home is likely a MAME arcade > machine. I know Fry's was selling one for a while. I did many "superguns" at home for friends. But nothing beats a real machine. I have one running MAME :o) From mardy at voysys.com Sat Jan 10 16:25:49 2009 From: mardy at voysys.com (Marden P. Marshall) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 17:25:49 -0500 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: <20090110150130.C5A5FBA4DA5@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20090110150130.C5A5FBA4DA5@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <2720E6FA-7717-4B7D-9DF1-3D7CB19951E6@voysys.com> On Jan 10, 2009, at 10:01 AM, Tim Shoppa wrote: > Dr. Dobbs was pretty cool... up until the IBM PC came out and > dominated everything. By the mid 80's all the Dr. Dobbs articles > were the-latest-TSR-to-do-something-in-MSDOS and it wasn't really > worth the effort for me to even look for something interesting > in it. That may have marked my turning point towards classic > computing, in fact :-). > > Tim. Just received the Feb. '09 issue of DDJ. A scant 48 pages. On the Editors page, Jonathan Erickson writes: "So effective in January 2009, Dr. Dobb's Journal is changing to Dr. Dobb's Report and will be delivered as a new monthly section in Information Week magazine." The end of a era. -Mardy From legalize at xmission.com Sat Jan 10 16:46:40 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 15:46:40 -0700 Subject: SGI Visualisation Systems... Good for Maya and what else? In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 08 Jan 2009 13:10:09 -0600. Message-ID: In article , "joe lobocki" writes: > abandoned the visualization market? http://www.sgi.com/vue/ it looks like > they are back in, and according to the top corner, using the full old logo, > which says "silicon graphics" again Well, I have no idea what's on that page because it tries loading some sort of "experience" and sits there at 1%. The market they abandoned was custom graphics architecture based hardware for visualization. Whatever they do now, I'm sure its a POPC machine with an NVidia card in it. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ragooman at comcast.net Sat Jan 10 17:36:05 2009 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 18:36:05 -0500 Subject: Arcades becoming extinct.. In-Reply-To: <4968DAC2.1070606@verizon.net> References: <49683AAA.8040809@comcast.net> <4968B4A5.6050102@comcast.net> <4968DAC2.1070606@verizon.net> Message-ID: <496930E5.5070409@comcast.net> Keith wrote: > Did you have a list of those arcades in Pittsburgh on your website? I > couldn't find them. > I grew up in Pittsburgh with my parents taking us kids to the arcades, > hanging out in arcades at night as a teenager, and so on. > Maybe Dave and Busters qualifies as an arcade --- but I like the the > old school retro games myself. (of which they have a few) > Hey, btw, I'm glad to see some of the various initiatives that you > run/are involved with in Pittsburgh. Like the robotics club, vintage > computer stuff, etc etc. Good job. I need to update the Pittsburgh list on my webpage still Dave n Busters wouldn't be a considered a classic arcade place here, they only have new stuff there. But here's the links. Pittsburgh Players Club Museum - from the very old (ie mechanical) to the new; 170+ games http://www.angelfire.com/pa2/pindan/museum.htm Games 'n at -- half old stuff and new stuff, plus home video games http://sites.google.com/site/gamesnatsite/ Professional Amateur Pinball Association(PAPA) -- international tournaments and a colossal collection of pinball machines; 300+ games http://www.papa.org/index.php =Dan [ = http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Jan 10 17:38:42 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 18:38:42 -0500 Subject: How to tell differential scsi drives and cards apart Message-ID: <2877B33C3A8B42B2917A94952AAA92F3@game> Is there an easy way to tell if a SCSI controller or HD is LVD or HVD? My understanding is that HVD was the first type used and was just called differential F/W and then LVD came out so the old standard was then called HVD. I have some SUN Symbios 22802 cards coming in I wanted to use in a SUN Ultra Sparc 5 and I think those are HVD (advertised as just differential and I didn't think to cross check). Everything I have is SE/LVD. From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Jan 10 17:40:27 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 18:40:27 -0500 Subject: Arcades becoming extinct.. References: <49683AAA.8040809@comcast.net> <4968B4A5.6050102@comcast.net><4968DAC2.1070606@verizon.net> <496930E5.5070409@comcast.net> Message-ID: <61AECBB5BB874924B2F8DC39541C00EC@game> If all the old arcades are extinct where did all the cabinets end up? Do they get crunched or do they get a face transplant and new games installed? From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 10 17:54:32 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 15:54:32 -0800 Subject: Arcades becoming extinct.. In-Reply-To: <4968B4A5.6050102@comcast.net> References: <49683AAA.8040809@comcast.net>, <4968B4A5.6050102@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4968C4B8.6014.615C926@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Jan 2009 at 9:45, Dan Roganti wrote: > The arcades of today may be disappearing, but the arcades of yesterday > are actually on the rise. We have 3 here already in Pittsburgh with a > lot of the original arcades, digital _and_mechanical, including > pinballs, bowlers, baseball and shooting arcades. There's a few cities > with some more, I haven't cataloged them all yet. It's not a "classic" arcade unless it's got some Mutoscopes, fortunetelling machines, and Nickelodeon or two... Cheers, Chuck From keithvz at verizon.net Sat Jan 10 18:33:00 2009 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 19:33:00 -0500 Subject: Arcades becoming extinct.. In-Reply-To: <496930E5.5070409@comcast.net> References: <49683AAA.8040809@comcast.net> <4968B4A5.6050102@comcast.net> <4968DAC2.1070606@verizon.net> <496930E5.5070409@comcast.net> Message-ID: <49693E3C.8050303@verizon.net> Dan Roganti wrote: > Dave n Busters wouldn't be a considered a classic arcade place here, > they only have new stuff there. That's not entirely true. When walking into the main entrance, go straight past the cashier's desk to the right, and back in the section to the right, I found a few older games. I think ms. pacman and space invaders, at least. I didn't spend much time looking, but there are a few classics there. They were there at least a month or so ago, anyways. Keith From hachti at hachti.de Sat Jan 10 19:23:29 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 02:23:29 +0100 Subject: New Honeywell H316 video on youtube Message-ID: <49694A11.3070709@hachti.de> Hi folks, last night I took some 2006 dv footage and prepared it for youtube. Perhaps some people here like to watch that blinkenlights stuff. I show compiling and running a program on the machine. Not too detailed, but very nice moving images. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxVbRz6udmI Comments strongly appreciated! :-) Planning to do a more technical video another time. Best wishes, Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Jan 10 21:29:50 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 21:29:50 -0600 Subject: Arcades becoming extinct.. In-Reply-To: <4968C4B8.6014.615C926@cclist.sydex.com> References: <49683AAA.8040809@comcast.net>, <4968B4A5.6050102@comcast.net> <4968C4B8.6014.615C926@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <496967AE.9050200@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10 Jan 2009 at 9:45, Dan Roganti wrote: > >> The arcades of today may be disappearing, but the arcades of yesterday >> are actually on the rise. We have 3 here already in Pittsburgh with a >> lot of the original arcades, digital _and_mechanical, including >> pinballs, bowlers, baseball and shooting arcades. There's a few cities >> with some more, I haven't cataloged them all yet. > > It's not a "classic" arcade unless it's got some Mutoscopes, > fortunetelling machines, and Nickelodeon or two... Yeah, I recall at some of the bigger steam festivals in the UK they often have arcades with Victorian-era systems* in - it's a good way of wasting a few hours :-) * 90% mechanical of course, with a smattering of simple electrics... cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Jan 10 21:40:16 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 21:40:16 -0600 Subject: How to tell differential scsi drives and cards apart In-Reply-To: <2877B33C3A8B42B2917A94952AAA92F3@game> References: <2877B33C3A8B42B2917A94952AAA92F3@game> Message-ID: <49696A20.9050001@gmail.com> Teo Zenios wrote: > Is there an easy way to tell if a SCSI controller or HD is LVD or HVD? Has it got an external connector? If so it should have the appropriate symbol next to it for the bus type - if you scroll to the bottom of the following page then there's a quick overview of the symbols: http://scsifaq.paralan.com/scsifaqanswers4.html > I have some SUN Symbios 22802 cards coming in I wanted to use in a SUN > Ultra Sparc 5 and I think those are HVD (advertised as just differential > and I didn't think to cross check). Everything I have is SE/LVD. I think there are converters to be purchased, but of course it's a convenience/money equation... (if none of that makes sense, blame the red wine) cheers Jules From michaelgreen42 at comcast.net Sun Jan 11 00:00:57 2009 From: michaelgreen42 at comcast.net (Michael) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 22:00:57 -0800 Subject: Mac SE FS in Seattle Area In-Reply-To: <200901101800.n0AI0gcU001923@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901101800.n0AI0gcU001923@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <03f201c973b1$f8f792f0$eae6b8d0$@net> I've got a number of working Mac SE's (not 30's) I'd like to sell. I've got both HD and dual floppy models. Some of them need an OS reload and some work fine. Make me an offer, I'd like to move these soon due to a pending relocation. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Jan 11 00:02:51 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 01:02:51 -0500 Subject: Interesting Folder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> XD-1 as in AN/FSQ-7(XD-1)? > > Sounds like it. XD-1 would have been at MIT's Lincoln Labs facility. > Frame 41 is the Long-range Radar Inputs (LRI) unit. Interesting find. Your the SAGE dude around these parts, so send me your mailing address off list. -- Will From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Jan 11 01:24:59 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 23:24:59 -0800 Subject: "Tyrotek" analog computer Message-ID: <49699ECB.E8A9D0D2@cs.ubc.ca> I'm currently working on refurbishing a small analog computer from the mid-60's. It has the name "Tyrotek" on the front panel, in the middle of a sine wave curve. (My) web searches turn up zippo about this name (other than some guy using the word as a moniker). The only other clue to a manufacturer is "Non Linear Mfg." in the foil of the printed circuit boards. No model number, no identification plate. While it is smaller for an analog computer and appears to be intended as an educational or training unit, it is built to industrial standards, with a nice sizeable plugboard using standard IBM plugboard wires, fiberglass PCBs, discrete FET-input op-amps, etc., so it's not just some gimmicky thing. Eventually I'll have a web page for it, but right now I'm curious as to it's manufacturer origins. Just a guess, but one line of speculation I'm making is that "Non Linear Mfg." may have been the manufacturing arm of Non-Linear Systems of digital voltmeter fame, and Tyrotek was a subsidiary of, or otherwise associated, with NLS. Comments / clues / recollections? From michaelgreen42 at comcast.net Sun Jan 11 02:43:32 2009 From: michaelgreen42 at comcast.net (Michael) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 00:43:32 -0800 Subject: FS: NeXT Turbo in Seattle WA area In-Reply-To: <200901101800.n0AI0gcU001923@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901101800.n0AI0gcU001923@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <041f01c973c8$af6a1bf0$0e3e53d0$@net> I am getting ready to move and trying to lighten my load a bit. I have a working NeXT Turbo, 17 b/w monitor, keyboard, and mouse. It works great with a few minor issues. It boots but gets stuck on detecting network. Since I can't find my NeXTStep install CD's I can't log into it anyway since I don't know the password. Also the port where the mouse plugs into the keyboard has separated from the keyboard portion. It can be fixed since it's not actually broken but it will take more patience/time than I have or just a new keyboard. Looking for best offer. If you don't want the monitor due to shipping reasons I can take that off. From erikb at digischool.nl Sat Jan 10 12:32:54 2009 From: erikb at digischool.nl (erikb at digischool.nl) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 19:32:54 +0100 Subject: PDP-8/e, DECtape TU56 and other stuff available Message-ID: <20090110183254.GA29727@x1.electrologica.nl> Hi folks, Available in the Netherlands for a reasonable offer: PDP-8/e computer PDP-11/40 computer and spare PDP-11/40 processor board set TU56 DECtape unit TC11 UNIBUS DECtape controller PC05 paper tape unit with PC11 UNIBUS controller PDP-9 and PDP-12 consoles Circa 500 M/G/W series single height flip-chips HP 9100 programmable calculator Tektronix 4051 graphics computer Everything looks pretty good, but except for the HP 9100 nothing has been switched on. Please contact me directly if interested. Sincerely, Erik. From jws at jwsss.com Sat Jan 10 22:54:27 2009 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 20:54:27 -0800 Subject: How to tell differential scsi drives and cards apart In-Reply-To: <49696A20.9050001@gmail.com> References: <2877B33C3A8B42B2917A94952AAA92F3@game> <49696A20.9050001@gmail.com> Message-ID: <49697B83.9060007@jwsss.com> The HVD bus is designed such that if you plug it into a SE bus it will go into reset and go passive. There is a signal DIFFSNS on the HVD that will disable the bus. Not good, but better than nothing if you mess up and plug them together. The link below points to a company who makes the converters. Sometimes they are available on Ebay, and there are some repackaged by Compaq and HP that show up. They make both the 50 an 68 pin versions. I doubt they will work over 5m/sec with HVD involved, however. Will Adaptec controllers work in the Ultra5? I have many 2944's and 3944's available to play with but have not tried them. Jim > > http://scsifaq.paralan.com/scsifaqanswers4.html > > From locutus at puscii.nl Sun Jan 11 06:02:36 2009 From: locutus at puscii.nl (locutus at puscii.nl) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 13:02:36 +0100 Subject: PDP-8/e, DECtape TU56 and other stuff available In-Reply-To: <20090110183254.GA29727@x1.electrologica.nl> References: <20090110183254.GA29727@x1.electrologica.nl> Message-ID: <87vdsmqcdf.wl%locutus@puscii.nl> Where about in .nl would this be located? From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Sun Jan 11 07:37:12 2009 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 05:37:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Barcade Re: Arcades becoming extinct.. In-Reply-To: <4968DAC2.1070606@verizon.net> Message-ID: <207314.7200.qm@web112201.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Well if any of you ever find yourself in NYC, you can check out Barcade http://www.barcadebrooklyn.com/ It's a Bar with older video games The last time I was there they had (this is from mem, so I'm sorry if I am not 100% correct) Pengo Ms Pack Man Tapper Zaxxon Rolling Thunder Punch Out Crystal Castles QBert Dig Dug Donkey Kong and DK Jr Gauntlet Berzerk Out Run Tetris Moon Patrol I know they have a few more, check out their flickr page to see. From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Jan 11 08:56:12 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 09:56:12 -0500 Subject: Memory/cache on the 11/70 In-Reply-To: <967064C1-DD29-44CE-87E3-260F457A91BD@neurotica.com> References: <495A0906.6050206@softjar.se> <967064C1-DD29-44CE-87E3-260F457A91BD@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200901110956.12829.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 10 January 2009 12:36:19 pm Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jan 10, 2009, at 2:57 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> I also have some HP intelligent hex displays, along the lines of the > >> TIL-311, I'm sure you've seen them. > > > > Oh, yeah... I got my start back in the COSMAC Elf days. I have many > > TIL311s and a few of the HP varieties, too. > > Ahh yes, that's right. I really like those displays. > > >> Most of them are encapsulated in red > >> injection-molded plastic, but I have a handful of fairly rare > >> 5082-7359s, > >> which are hermetically-sealed purple ceramic with a glass cover. > >> They are > >> absolutely gorgeous. > > > > Sounds like. I don't know that I've ever seen that package. > > Here's a pic: > > http://www.neurotica.com/misc/HP5082-7359.jpg > > -Dave Oh man... I need to get me some of those. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Jan 11 08:54:29 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 09:54:29 -0500 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: <20090110150130.C5A5FBA4DA5@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20090110150130.C5A5FBA4DA5@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <200901110954.29968.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 10 January 2009 10:01:30 am Tim Shoppa wrote: > Dr. Dobbs was pretty cool... up until the IBM PC came out and > dominated everything. By the mid 80's all the Dr. Dobbs articles > were the-latest-TSR-to-do-something-in-MSDOS and it wasn't really > worth the effort for me to even look for something interesting > in it. That may have marked my turning point towards classic > computing, in fact :-). > > Tim. I too lost interest in it somewhere in there... Fortunately, thanks to a listmember, I have some of the earliest issues on hand here to browse. Unfortunately I need reading glasses to be able to get much out of them. Oh well. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sun Jan 11 10:50:37 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 14:50:37 -0200 Subject: New Honeywell H316 video on youtube References: <49694A11.3070709@hachti.de> Message-ID: <0d3f01c9740c$c9609770$46fea8c0@DeskJara> A-Mazing! :oD > Perhaps some people here like to watch that blinkenlights stuff. I show > compiling and running > a program on the machine. Not too detailed, but very nice moving images. > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxVbRz6udmI > Comments strongly appreciated! :-) From pontus at update.uu.se Sun Jan 11 11:32:00 2009 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 18:32:00 +0100 Subject: New Honeywell H316 video on youtube In-Reply-To: <49694A11.3070709@hachti.de> References: <49694A11.3070709@hachti.de> Message-ID: <496A2D10.5050004@update.uu.se> Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > last night I took some 2006 dv footage and prepared it for youtube. Thanks! Your videos are always fun and interesting to watch. > Perhaps some people here like to watch that blinkenlights stuff. I > show compiling and running > a program on the machine. Not too detailed, but very nice moving images. The blinkenlights are of course nice. Fun to see things that are not from DEC. Where do you get the paper tape for your copies? > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxVbRz6udmI > > Comments strongly appreciated! :-) Not much to say :) Good editing and nice quality. > > Planning to do a more technical video another time. Looking forward to it. Regards, Pontus. From emu at e-bbes.com Sun Jan 11 12:01:24 2009 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 11:01:24 -0700 Subject: SCSI <--> IDE adapters Message-ID: <496A33F4.6080608@e-bbes.com> Which ones you guys recommend ? Just to clarify, I need an adapter which connects IDE (PATA) drives to an SCSI equipped VAX ... From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Jan 11 12:05:53 2009 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 10:05:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: New Honeywell H316 video on youtube In-Reply-To: <0d3f01c9740c$c9609770$46fea8c0@DeskJara> References: <49694A11.3070709@hachti.de> <0d3f01c9740c$c9609770$46fea8c0@DeskJara> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Jan 2009, Alexandre Souza wrote: > > A-Mazing! :oD > >> Perhaps some people here like to watch that blinkenlights stuff. I show >> compiling and running >> a program on the machine. Not too detailed, but very nice moving images. >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxVbRz6udmI >> Comments strongly appreciated! :-) That is the coolest thing I think I've ever seen on YouTube. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From michaelgreen42 at comcast.net Sun Jan 11 12:21:04 2009 From: michaelgreen42 at comcast.net (Michael) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 10:21:04 -0800 Subject: Sun Server Parts (E4000-E5000 series) Seattle WA In-Reply-To: <200901101800.n0AI0gcU001923@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901101800.n0AI0gcU001923@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <044901c97419$5dc05520$1940ff60$@net> Figured I would post here if anyone was interested before I go the eBay route. I've got 2 large boxes filled with node boards (most with procs and filled with ram), clock boards, i/o boards, power supplies, and other misc stuff not even sure about. If interested mail me offlist and let me know. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Jan 11 13:13:15 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 11:13:15 -0800 Subject: SCSI <--> IDE adapters In-Reply-To: <496A33F4.6080608@e-bbes.com> References: <496A33F4.6080608@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: At 11:01 AM -0700 1/11/09, e.stiebler wrote: >Which ones you guys recommend ? >Just to clarify, I need an adapter which connects IDE (PATA) drives >to an SCSI equipped VAX ... I'm told the Acard ones work, but with one caveat, Volume Shadowing will not work. I have a good stash of SCSI drives I picked up at a swap meet years ago, so haven't bothered to get any converters. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From emu at e-bbes.com Sun Jan 11 13:27:14 2009 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 12:27:14 -0700 Subject: SCSI <--> IDE adapters In-Reply-To: References: <496A33F4.6080608@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <496A4812.8040206@e-bbes.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > I'm told the Acard ones work, but with one caveat, Volume Shadowing will > not work. OK, thanks, I will check them out. > I have a good stash of SCSI drives I picked up at a swap meet > years ago, so haven't bothered to get any converters. Yes I know, but in the meantime, I'm having an overflow of 80GByte system disk from various systems. Like to put them to work first, and save the SCSI for bad times ;-) From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Jan 11 14:22:20 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 12:22:20 -0800 Subject: SCSI <--> IDE adapters In-Reply-To: <496A4812.8040206@e-bbes.com> References: <496A33F4.6080608@e-bbes.com> <496A4812.8040206@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: At 12:27 PM -0700 1/11/09, e.stiebler wrote: >Yes I know, but in the meantime, I'm having an overflow of 80GByte >system disk from various systems. Like to put them to work first, >and save the SCSI for bad times ;-) Makes sense, also you can save certain drives for the "finicky" systems that won't take the larger disks. I've been thinking about getting a U2W-SCSI converter and a large Seagate drive as a backup disk for my primary VMS box, it would make automating backups "cheap". Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jan 11 17:45:59 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 15:45:59 -0800 Subject: "Tyrotek" analog computer In-Reply-To: <49699ECB.E8A9D0D2@cs.ubc.ca> References: <49699ECB.E8A9D0D2@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca > > I'm currently working on refurbishing a small analog computer from the > mid-60's. It has the name "Tyrotek" on the front panel, in the middle of a sine > wave curve. (My) web searches turn up zippo about this name (other than some > guy using the word as a moniker). > > The only other clue to a manufacturer is "Non Linear Mfg." in the foil of the > printed circuit boards. No model number, no identification plate. > > While it is smaller for an analog computer and appears to be intended as an > educational or training unit, it is built to industrial standards, with a nice > sizeable plugboard using standard IBM plugboard wires, fiberglass PCBs, > discrete FET-input op-amps, etc., so it's not just some gimmicky thing. > > Eventually I'll have a web page for it, but right now I'm curious as to it's > manufacturer origins. Just a guess, but one line of speculation I'm making is > that "Non Linear Mfg." may have been the manufacturing arm of Non-Linear > Systems of digital voltmeter fame, and Tyrotek was a subsidiary of, or > otherwise associated, with NLS. > Hi Sounds intresting. I do question the date. It is more likely in the 70's. You might look at some of the date codes from the parts. How many amps does it have? Can they all be configured as integrators? Any special operators like multipliers? Does it have a two speed integrator function like the Comdynas? Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_howitworks_012009 From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sun Jan 11 18:20:02 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 22:20:02 -0200 Subject: SCSI <--> IDE adapters References: <496A33F4.6080608@e-bbes.com> <496A4812.8040206@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <127a01c9744b$91ddc810$46fea8c0@DeskJara> > Makes sense, also you can save certain drives for the "finicky" > systems that won't take the larger disks. I've been thinking about > getting a U2W-SCSI converter and a large Seagate drive as a backup > disk for my primary VMS box, it would make automating backups "cheap". The problem in saving drives is that is very common for the head to "glue" on the disk surface. I've seen it here many, many times. That is why I don't store hard disks anymore. Solid State is the way to go. From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sun Jan 11 19:55:59 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 23:55:59 -0200 Subject: New Honeywell H316 video on youtube References: <49694A11.3070709@hachti.de><0d3f01c9740c$c9609770$46fea8c0@DeskJara> Message-ID: <13c501c97459$047d9460$46fea8c0@DeskJara> >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxVbRz6udmI > That is the coolest thing I think I've ever seen on YouTube. :) I'd not say the coolest, maybe. But one of the most interesting ones :oD I want to make a paper reader/puncher :D I got in love with that toys :D :D :D Where can I buy the "blank" paper roll? From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 11 20:14:28 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 18:14:28 -0800 Subject: New Honeywell H316 video on youtube In-Reply-To: <13c501c97459$047d9460$46fea8c0@DeskJara> References: <49694A11.3070709@hachti.de>, <13c501c97459$047d9460$46fea8c0@DeskJara> Message-ID: <496A3704.13957.BBC6667@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Jan 2009 at 23:55, Alexandre Souza wrote: > Where can I buy the "blank" paper roll? Find a dealer in your area who handles old CNC equipment. A lot of that stuff is still running and needs paper tape. In the US, here's a source: http://www.westnc.com/paper-tape-rolls.html Cheers, Chuck From wmaddox at pacbell.net Sun Jan 11 22:00:20 2009 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 20:00:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Nice core stacks that have not been butchered Message-ID: <148234.136.qm@web82604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> There is a seller on eBay who has multiple units of an 18-plane core stack (Univac military surplus) that have not been chopped up for display. They are sealed in vapor-barrier bags. I bought one, and it appears to be a refurbed unit packaged for spares. Price is $295 "buy it now". Item # 180320226997 This is just one of them. Search for the other listings. --Bill From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Jan 11 22:57:31 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 23:57:31 -0500 Subject: Anyone ever play with an IOtech Serial488/4? Message-ID: Hi, All, I have this IOtech Serial488/4 IEEE-488 quad serial box here, found the manual easily enough, but haven't yet set it up. Does anyone on the list have any experience with one of these? If so, I'd love to hear about any lessons learned or "gotchas". For those that haven't seen one, it's rack-mount box with a 68B09, some ROM and SRAM, a pair of Z8530s, and a TMS9914 GPIB chip. It gives you four buffered serial lines on your IEEE-488 bus. They are still sold new, for new prices, and used for about 10% of that. It looks rather straight-forward to talk to, but I thought I'd ask in case there is some "notorious" feature of them. Given that I'm heavily loaded with PETs and not with HP equipment, I'll probably go that route. Thanks for any tales, -ethan From hachti at hachti.de Mon Jan 12 00:14:35 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 07:14:35 +0100 Subject: New Honeywell H316 video on youtube In-Reply-To: <13c501c97459$047d9460$46fea8c0@DeskJara> References: <49694A11.3070709@hachti.de><0d3f01c9740c$c9609770$46fea8c0@DeskJara> <13c501c97459$047d9460$46fea8c0@DeskJara> Message-ID: <496ADFCB.9030204@hachti.de> > Where can I buy the "blank" paper roll? ...one of the problems *g* From gklinger at gmail.com Mon Jan 12 01:02:31 2009 From: gklinger at gmail.com (Golan Klinger) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 02:02:31 -0500 Subject: VIC-20 Mega-Cart Message-ID: Disclaimer: I'm not sure if posting about this is out of bounds so if it is, please accept my apology and direct your flames to the address in my sig. I'm not involved with the project in any way so the following isn't an advertisement so much as a public service announcement/ravings of a very excited VIC-20 user. There's an exciting new piece of VIC-20 hardware called the Mega-Cart. It includes 179 games that were originally released on cartridge (that's all of the known cartridges BTW) as well as 53 games that were released on tape or disk (some of which were released in the last year). It's not just fun and games though. It also includes 24 utilities/applications (programming languages, monitors, an assembler, text editor, terminal program and more) and if that isn't enough, it's also a flexible RAM expander (3K, 8K, 16K, 32K and 32K + 3K). To make it easy to configure and use, the Mega-Cart comes with a menu system (that includes music no less) and it's able to remember all your configuration settings too. How neat is that? I haven't been this excited since I actually got my VIC-20. :) If you want to know more about or are interested in purchasing the Mega-Cart (the price is $100 USD) then visit the website: -- Golan Klinger Dark is the suede that mows like a harvest. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Jan 12 02:06:26 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 00:06:26 -0800 Subject: "Tyrotek" analog computer References: <49699ECB.E8A9D0D2@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <496AFA01.7F8AA221@cs.ubc.ca> dwight elvey wrote: > > > From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca > > > > I'm currently working on refurbishing a small analog computer from the > > mid-60's. It has the name "Tyrotek" on the front panel, in the middle of a sine > > wave curve. (My) web searches turn up zippo about this name (other than some > > guy using the word as a moniker). > > > > The only other clue to a manufacturer is "Non Linear Mfg." in the foil of the > > printed circuit boards. No model number, no identification plate. > > > > While it is smaller for an analog computer and appears to be intended as an > > educational or training unit, it is built to industrial standards, with a nice > > sizeable plugboard using standard IBM plugboard wires, fiberglass PCBs, > > discrete FET-input op-amps, etc., so it's not just some gimmicky thing. > > > > Eventually I'll have a web page for it, but right now I'm curious as to it's > > manufacturer origins. Just a guess, but one line of speculation I'm making is > > that "Non Linear Mfg." may have been the manufacturing arm of Non-Linear > > Systems of digital voltmeter fame, and Tyrotek was a subsidiary of, or > > otherwise associated, with NLS. > > > > Hi > Sounds intresting. I do question the date. It is more likely in the > 70's. You might look at some of the date codes from the parts. > How many amps does it have? Can they all be configured as integrators? > Any special operators like multipliers? Does it have a two speed > integrator function like the Comdynas? > Dwight Oh, it really is mid-60's, date codes are one of the first things I look for on any piece of quipment. Latest date code is 6734 on a 'lytic cap, 66xx on some other components. If you were questioning the date because of my reference to op-amps, ("discrete FET-input op-amps"), to clarify, I mean the entire op-amp is discrete, not discrete FETs feeding an op-amp IC. There are no ICs in the unit. There are a total of 10 amps. 4 can be configured as integrators or summers, 4 are just summers. 2 have associated circuitry to make them into multipliers or dividers, or can be used as just summers. I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to as the two-speed function, but there was an option (going by the front panel labeling and some wiring) (option not installed) to change the "Time Scale" for the integrators. I believe it changed the integrating caps for all the amps, but it's a 'global' change, not individually selectable per amp. The unit had been languishing in my basement for a few years, on the verge of being thrown out. Now that I've gotten into it, it has been fun figuring out something 'completely different', never having worked on or with one previously. Of course, I don't have the manual for the thing. I've done the schematic, which has made it possible to figure out a lot of it. There's not a lot on the web about analog computers, but there are a couple of scans of manufacturer brochures and an article or two that are cluing me in to the standard practices of the time. It's currently in a million pieces across 3 workbenches, almost ready for reassembly. (Most of the nuts and screws and a few other metal parts had grown that white powder that develops under certain conditions on some metal surfaces. I've seen it on other equipment, I presume it's an oxide of the metal plating, although it also has the appearance of a mildew or fungus. I'm not sure what element the plating is. Fortunately, it's only a 'mechanical' issue, it isn't affecting the circuitry or contacts.) If you have experience with these things I may be back asking some questions in a while, once it's all together and functioning and I can put up some pictures. What can be done with it when it's functioning will be another question. The only built-in 'output' device is a solitary analog meter. I have my eye on an HP analog chart recorder buried at the radio museum, to use as an output recorder, but I expect it has ink issues in the way of getting it going. (At least the plugboard looks cool.) From quapla at xs4all.nl Mon Jan 12 05:15:17 2009 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 12:15:17 +0100 (CET) Subject: New Honeywell H316 video on youtube Message-ID: <16442.62.177.247.249.1231758917.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Try 'Numeric Control Corp', a company in de states who does/(did?) sell papertape. I once bought a case of 48 rolls some time ago for my teletype Ed > >> Where can I buy the "blank" paper roll? > > ...one of the problems *g* > From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Mon Jan 12 07:20:15 2009 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 13:20:15 +0000 Subject: "Tyrotek" analog computer In-Reply-To: <496AFA01.7F8AA221@cs.ubc.ca> References: <49699ECB.E8A9D0D2@cs.ubc.ca> <496AFA01.7F8AA221@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: This is where a deep cataloguing really helps. When in a good mood I catalogue the adverts and new products on books mags etc. No one can find without this legwork, OCR if Google can read will help. Use advert to see a small sample http://www.archivist.info/collection Dave Caroline From wgungfu at uwm.edu Mon Jan 12 08:22:07 2009 From: wgungfu at uwm.edu (Martin Scott Goldberg) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 08:22:07 -0600 (CST) Subject: VIC-20 Mega-Cart In-Reply-To: <941507416.17923131231770010701.JavaMail.root@mail01.pantherlink.uwm.edu> Message-ID: <641490273.17923871231770127148.JavaMail.root@mail01.pantherlink.uwm.edu> Most of those games are still active (as in still used) properties by Midway, Namco, Taito, Konami, and Atari. They're opening themselves up to cease and desists and lawsuits by at least 5 different companies. Marty ----- Original Message ----- From: "Golan Klinger" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 1:02:31 AM GMT -06:00 Central America Subject: VIC-20 Mega-Cart Disclaimer: I'm not sure if posting about this is out of bounds so if it is, please accept my apology and direct your flames to the address in my sig. I'm not involved with the project in any way so the following isn't an advertisement so much as a public service announcement/ravings of a very excited VIC-20 user. There's an exciting new piece of VIC-20 hardware called the Mega-Cart. It includes 179 games that were originally released on cartridge (that's all of the known cartridges BTW) as well as 53 games that were released on tape or disk (some of which were released in the last year). It's not just fun and games though. It also includes 24 utilities/applications (programming languages, monitors, an assembler, text editor, terminal program and more) and if that isn't enough, it's also a flexible RAM expander (3K, 8K, 16K, 32K and 32K + 3K). To make it easy to configure and use, the Mega-Cart comes with a menu system (that includes music no less) and it's able to remember all your configuration settings too. How neat is that? I haven't been this excited since I actually got my VIC-20. :) If you want to know more about or are interested in purchasing the Mega-Cart (the price is $100 USD) then visit the website: -- Golan Klinger Dark is the suede that mows like a harvest. From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jan 12 08:42:48 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 09:42:48 -0500 Subject: How to tell differential scsi drives and cards apart In-Reply-To: <2877B33C3A8B42B2917A94952AAA92F3@game> References: <2877B33C3A8B42B2917A94952AAA92F3@game> Message-ID: <496B56E8.70902@gmail.com> Teo Zenios wrote: > Is there an easy way to tell if a SCSI controller or HD is LVD or > HVD? My understanding is that HVD was the first type used and was > just called differential F/W and then LVD came out so the old > standard was then called HVD. The part number on the chip. Peace... Sridhar From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Jan 12 09:13:11 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 07:13:11 -0800 Subject: "Tyrotek" analog computer In-Reply-To: <496AFA01.7F8AA221@cs.ubc.ca> References: <49699ECB.E8A9D0D2@cs.ubc.ca> <496AFA01.7F8AA221@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 00:06:26 -0800 > From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca > To: General at invalid.domain > CC: > Subject: Re: "Tyrotek" analog computer > > dwight elvey wrote: >> >>> From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca >>> >>> I'm currently working on refurbishing a small analog computer from the >>> mid-60's. It has the name "Tyrotek" on the front panel, in the middle of a sine >>> wave curve. (My) web searches turn up zippo about this name (other than some >>> guy using the word as a moniker). >>> >>> The only other clue to a manufacturer is "Non Linear Mfg." in the foil of the >>> printed circuit boards. No model number, no identification plate. >>> >>> While it is smaller for an analog computer and appears to be intended as an >>> educational or training unit, it is built to industrial standards, with a nice >>> sizeable plugboard using standard IBM plugboard wires, fiberglass PCBs, >>> discrete FET-input op-amps, etc., so it's not just some gimmicky thing. >>> >>> Eventually I'll have a web page for it, but right now I'm curious as to it's >>> manufacturer origins. Just a guess, but one line of speculation I'm making is >>> that "Non Linear Mfg." may have been the manufacturing arm of Non-Linear >>> Systems of digital voltmeter fame, and Tyrotek was a subsidiary of, or >>> otherwise associated, with NLS. >>> >> >> Hi >> Sounds intresting. I do question the date. It is more likely in the >> 70's. You might look at some of the date codes from the parts. >> How many amps does it have? Can they all be configured as integrators? >> Any special operators like multipliers? Does it have a two speed >> integrator function like the Comdynas? >> Dwight > > Oh, it really is mid-60's, date codes are one of the first things I look for > on any piece of quipment. Latest date code is 6734 on a 'lytic cap, > 66xx on some other components. > If you were questioning the date because of my reference to op-amps, > ("discrete FET-input op-amps"), to clarify, I mean the entire op-amp > is discrete, not discrete FETs feeding an op-amp IC. There are no ICs > in the unit. > > There are a total of 10 amps. 4 can be configured as integrators or summers, 4 > are just summers. 2 have associated circuitry to make them into multipliers > or dividers, or can be used as just summers. Hi It does sound like what was used as the basis for the Comdyna 10. You might email the fellow at Comdyna and ask if he recognizes this machine. > > I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to as the two-speed function, but > there was an option (going by the front panel labeling and some wiring) (option > not installed) to change the "Time Scale" for the integrators. I believe it > changed the integrating caps for all the amps, but it's a 'global' change, not > individually selectable per amp. Yes, that is what I was talking about. The Comdynas come with a switch that controls relays at each integrator( in parallel ) such that one can slow the time constants down. This is handy for plotting on a chart recorder. I think that it uses a factor of 30 but most any works as it is all done in parallel and as long as all is modelled as integrators and with differentiators( usually can be avoided ). > > The unit had been languishing in my basement for a few years, on the verge of > being thrown out. Now that I've gotten into it, it has been fun figuring out > something 'completely different', never having worked on or with one previously. > > Of course, I don't have the manual for the thing. I've done the schematic, > which has made it possible to figure out a lot of it. > There's not a lot on the web about analog computers, but there are a couple of > scans of manufacturer brochures and an article or two that are cluing me in to > the standard practices of the time. > > It's currently in a million pieces across 3 workbenches, almost ready for > reassembly. (Most of the nuts and screws and a few other metal parts had grown > that white powder that develops under certain conditions on some metal > surfaces. I've seen it on other equipment, I presume it's an oxide of the metal > plating, although it also has the appearance of a mildew or fungus. I'm not sure > what element the plating is. Fortunately, it's only a 'mechanical' issue, it isn't > affecting the circuitry or contacts.) Most likely zinc, lead or aluminum oxides. This is common for items store where they might have condensing moisture. > > If you have experience with these things I may be back asking some questions in > a while, once it's all together and functioning and I can put up some pictures. I've played some with them. A fun example is the bouncing ball example from the EC-1 by heath kit. It will give you an idea of how one models a physical system into the computer. Look at the configuration. There is a way to reduce the number of op-amps needed by one ( I forget now ). It saves two free amps that can be used to create a sine/cosine oscillator for the ball instead of the 60 Hz one in the example. For use with a plotter, you don't want the ball anyway, it is just fun on an oscilloscope but not needed otherwise. A dot bounces just as nicely. Dwight > > What can be done with it when it's functioning will be another question. > The only built-in 'output' device is a solitary analog meter. I have my eye on > an HP analog chart recorder buried at the radio museum, to use as an output > recorder, but I expect it has ink issues in the way of getting it going. > > (At least the plugboard looks cool.) _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_012009 From rescue at hawkmountain.net Mon Jan 12 10:00:52 2009 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 11:00:52 -0500 Subject: How to tell differential scsi drives and cards apart In-Reply-To: <496B56E8.70902@gmail.com> References: <2877B33C3A8B42B2917A94952AAA92F3@game> <496B56E8.70902@gmail.com> Message-ID: <496B6934.1060602@hawkmountain.net> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Teo Zenios wrote: >> Is there an easy way to tell if a SCSI controller or HD is LVD or >> HVD? My understanding is that HVD was the first type used and was >> just called differential F/W and then LVD came out so the old >> standard was then called HVD. > > The part number on the chip. I usually get clued in on controllers via termination resistor chips/packs. Probably not guaranteed to be a perfect way, but in my limited amount of HVD stuff, it has at least been 100% correct so far :-) -- Curt > > Peace... Sridhar > From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Mon Jan 12 10:07:39 2009 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 08:07:39 -0800 Subject: "Tyrotek" analog computer In-Reply-To: <496AFA01.7F8AA221@cs.ubc.ca> References: <49699ECB.E8A9D0D2@cs.ubc.ca> <496AFA01.7F8AA221@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <496B6ACB.4080106@sbcglobal.net> Brent Hilpert wrote: > dwight elvey wrote: > >>> From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca >>> >>> I'm currently working on refurbishing a small analog computer from the >>> mid-60's. It has the name "Tyrotek" on the front panel, in the middle of a sine >>> wave curve. (My) web searches turn up zippo about this name (other than some >>> guy using the word as a moniker). >>> >>> The only other clue to a manufacturer is "Non Linear Mfg." in the foil of the >>> printed circuit boards. No model number, no identification plate. >>> >>> While it is smaller for an analog computer and appears to be intended as an >>> educational or training unit, it is built to industrial standards, with a nice >>> sizeable plugboard using standard IBM plugboard wires, fiberglass PCBs, >>> discrete FET-input op-amps, etc., so it's not just some gimmicky thing. >>> >>> Eventually I'll have a web page for it, but right now I'm curious as to it's >>> manufacturer origins. Just a guess, but one line of speculation I'm making is >>> that "Non Linear Mfg." may have been the manufacturing arm of Non-Linear >>> Systems of digital voltmeter fame, and Tyrotek was a subsidiary of, or >>> otherwise associated, with NLS. >>> >>> >> Hi >> Sounds intresting. I do question the date. It is more likely in the >> 70's. You might look at some of the date codes from the parts. >> How many amps does it have? Can they all be configured as integrators? >> Any special operators like multipliers? Does it have a two speed >> integrator function like the Comdynas? >> Dwight >> > > Oh, it really is mid-60's, date codes are one of the first things I look for > on any piece of quipment. Latest date code is 6734 on a 'lytic cap, > 66xx on some other components. > If you were questioning the date because of my reference to op-amps, > ("discrete FET-input op-amps"), to clarify, I mean the entire op-amp > is discrete, not discrete FETs feeding an op-amp IC. There are no ICs > in the unit. > > There are a total of 10 amps. 4 can be configured as integrators or summers, 4 > are just summers. 2 have associated circuitry to make them into multipliers > or dividers, or can be used as just summers. > > I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to as the two-speed function, but > there was an option (going by the front panel labeling and some wiring) (option > not installed) to change the "Time Scale" for the integrators. I believe it > changed the integrating caps for all the amps, but it's a 'global' change, not > individually selectable per amp. > > The unit had been languishing in my basement for a few years, on the verge of > being thrown out. Now that I've gotten into it, it has been fun figuring out > something 'completely different', never having worked on or with one previously. > > Of course, I don't have the manual for the thing. I've done the schematic, > which has made it possible to figure out a lot of it. > There's not a lot on the web about analog computers, but there are a couple of > scans of manufacturer brochures and an article or two that are cluing me in to > the standard practices of the time. > > It's currently in a million pieces across 3 workbenches, almost ready for > reassembly. (Most of the nuts and screws and a few other metal parts had grown > that white powder that develops under certain conditions on some metal > surfaces. I've seen it on other equipment, I presume it's an oxide of the metal > plating, although it also has the appearance of a mildew or fungus. I'm not sure > what element the plating is. Fortunately, it's only a 'mechanical' issue, it isn't > affecting the circuitry or contacts.) > > If you have experience with these things I may be back asking some questions in > a while, once it's all together and functioning and I can put up some pictures. > > What can be done with it when it's functioning will be another question. > The only built-in 'output' device is a solitary analog meter. I have my eye on > an HP analog chart recorder buried at the radio museum, to use as an output > recorder, but I expect it has ink issues in the way of getting it going. > > (At least the plugboard looks cool.) > > One output device to use is an oscilloscope. Here's a photo of my Comdyna generating a double-well chaos equation: http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/analog/chaos1.jpg Bob From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Mon Jan 12 10:33:38 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 11:33:38 -0500 Subject: New Honeywell H316 video on youtube References: <49694A11.3070709@hachti.de> <13c501c97459$047d9460$46fea8c0@DeskJara> <496A3704.13957.BBC6667@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <18795.28898.26137.148310@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> >>>>> "Chuck" == Chuck Guzis writes: Chuck> On 11 Jan 2009 at 23:55, Alexandre Souza wrote: >> Where can I buy the "blank" paper roll? Chuck> Find a dealer in your area who handles old CNC equipment. A Chuck> lot of that stuff is still running and needs paper tape. In Chuck> the US, here's a source: Chuck> http://www.westnc.com/paper-tape-rolls.html Wow, they even have rolls for 5 channel tape (for all you old "green keys" operators out there). ni1d From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Jan 12 13:20:54 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 11:20:54 -0800 Subject: How to tell differential scsi drives and cards apart In-Reply-To: <49697B83.9060007@jwsss.com> References: <2877B33C3A8B42B2917A94952AAA92F3@game> <49696A20.9050001@gmail.com> <49697B83.9060007@jwsss.com> Message-ID: From: jim s Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 8:54 PM > The HVD bus is designed such that if you plug it into a SE bus it will > go into reset and go passive. There is a signal DIFFSNS on the HVD that > will disable the bus. Not good, but better than nothing if you mess up > and plug them together. I don't think so. The XKL Toad-1 was designed with FASTWIDE differential SCSI, and any single-ended peripheral that got connected accidentally was guaranteed to lose the magic smoke and go off to live with . We were in complete accordance with the SCSI specs. [ Regarding Paralan: ] > The link below points to a company who makes the converters. Sometimes > they are available on Ebay, and there are some repackaged by Compaq and > HP that show up. They make both the 50 an 68 pin versions. I doubt > they will work over 5m/sec with HVD involved, however. They work at 10MB/second on the Toad. We had to include one in the system because HP DAT drives and Quantum DLT drives were unavailable with differential interfaces. I purchased a Paralan HVD/LVD converter here in order to attach a SCSI JBoD array to the Toad, in anticipation of hosting a lot of data. Rich Alderson Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell From rescue at hawkmountain.net Mon Jan 12 14:25:51 2009 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 15:25:51 -0500 Subject: XKL TOAD (was: Re: How to tell differential scsi drives and cards apart) In-Reply-To: References: <2877B33C3A8B42B2917A94952AAA92F3@game> <49696A20.9050001@gmail.com> <49697B83.9060007@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <496BA74F.6060907@hawkmountain.net> Rich Alderson wrote: > From: jim s > Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 8:54 PM > > >> The HVD bus is designed such that if you plug it into a SE bus it will >> go into reset and go passive. There is a signal DIFFSNS on the HVD that >> will disable the bus. Not good, but better than nothing if you mess up >> and plug them together. >> > > I don't think so. The XKL Toad-1 was designed with FASTWIDE differential SCSI, > and any single-ended peripheral that got connected accidentally was guaranteed > to lose the magic smoke and go off to live with . We were > in complete accordance with the SCSI specs. > > Rich Alderson > Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project > Vulcan, Inc. > 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 > Seattle, WA 98104 > > mailto:RichA at vulcan.com > (206) 342-2239 > (206) 465-2916 cell > > speaking of XLK TOAD.... anyone have any idea how many of these things were made ? Any idea how many are still out there to be found ? They look pretty cool... and other than an emulator, I do believe the (physically) smallest 10 to be had, no ? -- Curt From slawmaster at gmail.com Mon Jan 12 14:32:26 2009 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 15:32:26 -0500 Subject: XKL TOAD (was: Re: How to tell differential scsi drives and cards apart) In-Reply-To: <496BA74F.6060907@hawkmountain.net> References: <2877B33C3A8B42B2917A94952AAA92F3@game> <49696A20.9050001@gmail.com> <49697B83.9060007@jwsss.com> <496BA74F.6060907@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <7d3530220901121232g7e6862b6x85cb5a99b8dd0dea@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 3:25 PM, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > Rich Alderson wrote: >> >> From: jim s >> Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 8:54 PM >> >> >>> >>> The HVD bus is designed such that if you plug it into a SE bus it will >>> go into reset and go passive. There is a signal DIFFSNS on the HVD that >>> will disable the bus. Not good, but better than nothing if you mess up >>> and plug them together. >>> >> >> I don't think so. The XKL Toad-1 was designed with FASTWIDE differential >> SCSI, >> and any single-ended peripheral that got connected accidentally was >> guaranteed >> to lose the magic smoke and go off to live with . We >> were >> in complete accordance with the SCSI specs. >> >> Rich Alderson >> Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project >> Vulcan, Inc. >> 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 >> Seattle, WA 98104 >> >> mailto:RichA at vulcan.com >> (206) 342-2239 >> (206) 465-2916 cell >> >> > > speaking of XLK TOAD.... anyone have any idea how many of > these things were made ? Any idea how many are still out there > to be found ? > > They look pretty cool... and other than an emulator, I do believe the > (physically) smallest 10 to be had, no ? > > -- Curt > > I'd sure like to find one... be interested to see how many remain. John -- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Jan 12 15:32:57 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 13:32:57 -0800 Subject: XKL TOAD (was: Re: How to tell differential scsi drives and cards apart) In-Reply-To: <7d3530220901121232g7e6862b6x85cb5a99b8dd0dea@mail.gmail.com> References: <2877B33C3A8B42B2917A94952AAA92F3@game> <49696A20.9050001@gmail.com> <49697B83.9060007@jwsss.com> <496BA74F.6060907@hawkmountain.net> <7d3530220901121232g7e6862b6x85cb5a99b8dd0dea@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: From: John Floren Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 12:32 PM > On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 3:25 PM, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. > wrote: >> Rich Alderson wrote: >>> The XKL Toad-1 was designed with FASTWIDE differential SCSI, [snip] >> speaking of XLK TOAD.... anyone have any idea how many of >> these things were made ? Any idea how many are still out there >> to be found ? >> They look pretty cool... and other than an emulator, I do believe the >> (physically) smallest 10 to be had, no ? I *think* the Systems Concepts SC-25 fit into a BA-23 style cabinet, but I never saw one. (My only experience with SC boxen was the SC-30M at Stanford LOTS, which was a 5ft tall 30in square cabinet.) If that's true, it might have been epsilon smaller than the Toad-1. > I'd sure like to find one... be interested to see how many remain. We built fewer than 20. A dozen were used in-house as a platform for the next product, which went through several years of iterating into what you now find on the XKL web site. (They may still be in use, but I haven't worked for XKL for nearly 6 years and don't know what they're using these days.) Two were sold to MCI/BT Tymnet, to replace their 4 KL-10 systems. These were retired shortly after the turn of the century, and placed into the hands of the gentlemen responsible for their being placed into service at Tymshare. One is still in private hands; the other was scrapped by an operation manager who did not know what he was doing (or perhaps he did). One went to Digital in exchange for a revision of the licensing contract for 36-bit software. It is now in the possession of the Computer History Museum. One was purchased by Paul Allen, and is freely available for public access. Accounts can be requested through the PDP Planet web site, under the Community button. One was given to a well-known collector of PDP-10 equipment who has been a friend to the owner of XKL since the early days of cisco Systems. It included the only copy of the Tops-10 port for the Toad-1. > John > -- > Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn "That is not dead which can sleeping lie, And with strange eons even death may die." (Otherwise, none of us would be doing any of this, whether as a hobby or in a professional context.) Rich Alderson Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 12 15:59:30 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 14:59:30 -0700 Subject: XKL TOAD (was: Re: How to tell differential scsi drives and cards apart) In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 12 Jan 2009 13:32:57 -0800. Message-ID: You can get an account on the XKL TOAD at pdpplanet. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From uban at ubanproductions.com Mon Jan 12 17:01:07 2009 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 17:01:07 -0600 Subject: NCCC - Sunfire V100 / Solaris In-Reply-To: <17554.62.140.137.30.1231605335.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <17554.62.140.137.30.1231605335.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <496BCBB3.4010601@ubanproductions.com> Hi Ed, Yes, it looks like Solaris can access either TTY via configuration, but I still have the LOMlite login/password problem to work around be fore I will be able to install from the Solaris CD. I wish that sun had a forum, but they don't appear to... --tom Ed Groenenberg wrote: > Hello Tom, > > If I'm not mistaken, the serial B can also be used. > > Regards, > > Ed > > >> Hi Ed, >> >> How do I access the Solaris console without going through LOM? >> >> Best, >> >> --tom >> >> Ed Groenenberg wrote: >>> Hello Tom, >>> >>> you do not really need the lom, just use the button on the back >>> to power it on. >>> You could also go to 'docs.sun.com' there's a ton of documentation. >>> Take a look at book '816-2756' this should bring you up to speed. >>> >>> I use a V120, but it's been a while since I had to fiddle around >>> with the lom >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Ed >>> >>>> Ed, >>>> >>>> Thanks, I new somebody on this list would have something useful >>>> to say about this problem. I ordered a copy of Solaris 10 with >>>> this in mind and so my last questions (at this time) are will I be >>>> able to use the installation CD without knowing the LOMlite login >>>> and password? Will it boot the CD by default when I manually power >>>> on the machine? Will I be able see and control the console? >>>> >>>> --tnx >>>> --tom >>>> >>>> Ed Groenenberg wrote: >>>>> Tom, >>>>> >>>>> Best way is to install Solrais 8, 9 or 10. >>>>> Then install the SUNWlomu, SUNWlomr & SUNWlomm packages >>>>> followed by patch 110208-22. Then use the lom tool to >>>>> manipulate the lom config to your likings. >>>>> BTW, the patch has the latest firmware for the lom, so you >>>>> can also upgrade it if wanted. >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> >>>>> Ed >>>>> >>>>>> Sorry about the lack of true classic computing content to this >>>>>> question, but it does relate to a little bit older machine, a >>>>>> Sunfire V100... >>>>>> >>>>>> I purchased one of these from eBay in hopes of possibly upgrading >>>>>> my home firewall and discovered that the machine has a Lights-Out- >>>>>> Management (LOM) CPU controlling the main UltraSPARC IIi processor. >>>>>> The LOM runs a monitor program (LOMlite) which on this particular >>>>>> machine is currently configured to require a login/password when >>>>>> communicating with the machine over the console serial port. >>>>>> >>>>>> >From seemingly endless google searching, it sounds like I should be >>>>>> able to break out of the LOMlite login/password cycle by resetting >>>>>> the machine with the JP13 jumper. When I do this, LOM is reset, a >>>>>> few seemingly ok diagnostic messages are emitted, and then the login >>>>>> password are again requested. >>>>>> >>>>>> I was unable to determine if there is some sort of default login >>>>>> password. >>>>>> >>>>>> The only path seems to be to possibly load the PATA IDE hard drive >>>>>> with Solaris, and then use the Solaris tools to reset the LOM setup. >>>>>> >>>>>> Does anyone on this list have any experience with this machine? >>>>>> >>>>>> --tnx >>>>>> --tom >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > > > From onymouse at garlic.com Mon Jan 12 08:15:34 2009 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 06:15:34 -0800 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: <200901110954.29968.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <20090110150130.C5A5FBA4DA5@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <200901110954.29968.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <496B5086.5090603@garlic.com> Wuh? Huh? DDJ is ending AGAIN? Seriously: Is this 1 April? I have the last 3 years up to the last (or first?) time they stopped publishing 10 or so years ago. Never did hear that they resumed. Never saw the mag on any of the racks anywhere since. == jd California, n.: From Latin "calor", meaning "heat" (as in English "calorie" or Spanish "caliente"); and "fornia'" for "sexual intercourse" or "fornication." Hence: Tierra de California, "the land of hot sex." -- Ed Moran -- From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Jan 12 21:09:27 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 19:09:27 -0800 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: <496B5086.5090603@garlic.com> References: <20090110150130.C5A5FBA4DA5@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <200901110954.29968.rtellason@verizon.net>, <496B5086.5090603@garlic.com> Message-ID: ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jd [onymouse at garlic.com] Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 6:15 AM To: General at bakaboy.onymouse.ws; Discussion@ Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs to cease? Wuh? Huh? DDJ is ending AGAIN? Seriously: Is this 1 April? I have the last 3 years up to the last (or first?) time they stopped publishing 10 or so years ago. Never did hear that they resumed. Never saw the mag on any of the racks anywhere since. == jd California, n.: From Latin "calor", meaning "heat" (as in English "calorie" or Spanish "caliente"); and "fornia'" for "sexual intercourse" or "fornication." Hence: Tierra de California, "the land of hot sex." -- Ed Moran -- From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Jan 12 21:22:37 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 19:22:37 -0800 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: References: <20090110150130.C5A5FBA4DA5@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <200901110954.29968.rtellason@verizon.net>, <496B5086.5090603@garlic.com>, Message-ID: Oh bugger - what did I hit to send an empty email? Sorry. I was going to say: the last time I bought DDJ was when it ran an article about an embedded OS my company made. That was perhaps five years ago. It was depressing to see how slender a magazine had replaced the robust journal I recalled from the Olden Days. As computing becomes commoditized, there is less and less focus on the hobbyist - the people who created much of this industry in the first place! Amateur radio saw a very similar glide path, IMHO. The difference is that amateur radio still offers a unique social opportunity, while computing per se does not require the same commitment to technical knowledge to provide a social experience. In other words: to be a ham and converse with people in distant lands, you still have to know something about electronics, radio theory and communications law. To surf, email, blog, Twitter, etc., you have to know how to read the numbers on your credit card. The social experiences in computing are gravitating to niche interests - such as ours. I'm not complaining, but it is a touch sad that DDJ, C Users Journal and the like are part of history. It was fun to see people argue about the syntax of some obscure C construct or the virtues of one architecture over another, and even more fun to weigh in. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: Ian King Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 7:09 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Dr. Dobbs to cease? ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jd [onymouse at garlic.com] Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 6:15 AM To: General at bakaboy.onymouse.ws; Discussion@ Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs to cease? Wuh? Huh? DDJ is ending AGAIN? Seriously: Is this 1 April? I have the last 3 years up to the last (or first?) time they stopped publishing 10 or so years ago. Never did hear that they resumed. Never saw the mag on any of the racks anywhere since. == jd California, n.: From Latin "calor", meaning "heat" (as in English "calorie" or Spanish "caliente"); and "fornia'" for "sexual intercourse" or "fornication." Hence: Tierra de California, "the land of hot sex." -- Ed Moran -- From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Jan 12 23:37:25 2009 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 23:37:25 -0600 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: References: <20090110150130.C5A5FBA4DA5@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <200901110954.29968.rtellason@verizon.net>, <496B5086.5090603@garlic.com>, Message-ID: <496C2895.1020203@oldskool.org> Ian King wrote: > The social experiences in computing are gravitating to niche interests - such as ours. An excellent observation, and one that has been hard for me to adjust to. My memories of dialing BBSes are fond because using a BBS wasn't always trivial, so the people you met via BBSes had to have at least a base level of intelligence in order for you to meet. One consolation is that the global nature of "everyone has internet access" leads to message groups like this one, and the ability to connect with similar-interest people globally without paying out the tooth for it. I have worked with people in my hobbies in the last ten years that I never would have met otherwise, thanks to the internet becoming a commodity (hell, in my house, it's a *utility*). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Jan 13 00:13:05 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 22:13:05 -0800 Subject: "Tyrotek" analog computer References: <49699ECB.E8A9D0D2@cs.ubc.ca> <496AFA01.7F8AA221@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <496C30F1.75C99D3@cs.ubc.ca> dwight elvey wrote: > > > From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca > > There are a total of 10 amps. 4 can be configured as integrators or summers, 4 > > are just summers. 2 have associated circuitry to make them into multipliers > > or dividers, or can be used as just summers. > > Hi > It does sound like what was used as the basis for the Comdyna 10. > You might email the fellow at Comdyna and ask if he recognizes this > machine. Found the web page, and yes, it does seem similar in size and functionality to the Comdyna GP-6 or 10. I'll follow up with him as you suggest. > > It's currently in a million pieces across 3 workbenches, almost ready for > > reassembly. (Most of the nuts and screws and a few other metal parts had grown > > that white powder that develops under certain conditions on some metal > > surfaces. I've seen it on other equipment, I presume it's an oxide of the metal > > plating, although it also has the appearance of a mildew or fungus. I'm not sure > > what element the plating is. Fortunately, it's only a 'mechanical' issue, it isn't > > affecting the circuitry or contacts.) > > Most likely zinc, lead or aluminum oxides. This is common for items store > where they might have condensing moisture. In it's 'normal' form the plating has a flat white-grey appearance, no blue or yellow tinge as one gets with other plates. To my observation it was used roughly from the late-30's/40s to the 60s/early-70's and then (thankfully) seems to have fallen out of favour. > I've played some with them. A fun example is the bouncing ball example > from the EC-1 by heath kit. It will give you an idea of how one models > a physical system into the computer. > Look at the configuration. There is a way to reduce the number of > op-amps needed by one ( I forget now ). It saves two free amps that > can be used to create a sine/cosine oscillator for the ball instead of > the 60 Hz one in the example. For use with a plotter, you don't want > the ball anyway, it is just fun on an oscilloscope but not needed > otherwise. A dot bounces just as nicely. .. have to see if one can still get the manual for the EC-1, re discussion of a couple of weeks ago about access to Heath manuals being removed from the web. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Jan 13 00:13:35 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 22:13:35 -0800 Subject: "Tyrotek" analog computer References: <49699ECB.E8A9D0D2@cs.ubc.ca> <496AFA01.7F8AA221@cs.ubc.ca> <496B6ACB.4080106@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <496C310E.97C8F938@cs.ubc.ca> Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > > Brent Hilpert wrote: > > What can be done with it when it's functioning will be another question. > > The only built-in 'output' device is a solitary analog meter. I have my eye on > > an HP analog chart recorder buried at the radio museum, to use as an output > > recorder, but I expect it has ink issues in the way of getting it going. > > One output device to use is an oscilloscope. > > Here's a photo of my Comdyna generating a double-well > chaos equation: > > http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/analog/chaos1.jpg Neat, hadn't seen these Comdynas before you and Dwight mentioned them. One issue is this Tyrotek doesn't have an automatic cycling mode, it looks like such was another option. The control states are Reset (initial conditions), Operate (calculate) and Hold, no "Repeat-Op". So to use it with a scope I would have to build a cycling unit, (possible, the connections are there to do it, but something more to do), or, I guess, build oscillators as part of the program. I can almost trace out the program from your photo, but do you have it written or diagrammed in some format that could be easily communicated? I take it there are back-panel connections to the scope in the setup you show, I see only the one feed to the scope. From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 13 00:41:48 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 23:41:48 -0700 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 12 Jan 2009 06:15:34 -0800. <496B5086.5090603@garlic.com> Message-ID: They deserve to die. The magazine has been worthless for a long, long time. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 13 00:45:16 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 23:45:16 -0700 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 12 Jan 2009 19:22:37 -0800. Message-ID: In article , Ian King writes: > I'm not complaining, but it is a touch sad that DDJ, C Users Journal and > the like are part of history. It was fun to see people argue about the > syntax of some obscure C construct or the virtues of one architecture > over another, and even more fun to weigh in. -- Ian The same experience exists today, its called the 'net. Whether its mailing lists, or comp.lang.c++, or a blog, the social interaction is still there -- its just not mediated by a dead tree magazine. We don't *need* the magazines as a springboard for our conversations anymore -- we can talk to each other directly. The community of programmers is more alive than ever from where I sit, its just not happening on the pages of dead tree magazines like BYTE or DDJ. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 13 00:46:31 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 23:46:31 -0700 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 12 Jan 2009 23:37:25 -0600. <496C2895.1020203@oldskool.org> Message-ID: In article <496C2895.1020203 at oldskool.org>, Jim Leonard writes: > An excellent observation, and one that has been hard for me to adjust > to. My memories of dialing BBSes are fond because using a BBS wasn't > always trivial, so the people you met via BBSes had to have at least a > base level of intelligence in order for you to meet. I suppose that depends on which BBS you used; around Utah, the biggest BBS was a multi-line chat system called "Lower Lights" and believe me the minimum intelligence level needed to get on that system was pretty low. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From brain at jbrain.com Tue Jan 13 00:54:05 2009 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 00:54:05 -0600 Subject: Price of 1kB SRAM in late 1970's? Message-ID: <496C3A8D.8090706@jbrain.com> Anyone have a rough idea? Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jan 13 01:09:20 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 00:09:20 -0700 Subject: Price of 1kB SRAM in late 1970's? In-Reply-To: <496C3A8D.8090706@jbrain.com> References: <496C3A8D.8090706@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <496C3E20.6040708@jetnet.ab.ca> Jim Brain wrote: > Anyone have a rough idea? Time to check out old catalogs. What size ram? 128x8 or 1024x1. Current 2102 prices are $1.50 to $2.00. link below memory prices 1958 to 2008 http://www.jcmit.com/memoryprice.htm > Jim From jws at jwsss.com Mon Jan 12 17:00:27 2009 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 15:00:27 -0800 Subject: How to tell differential scsi drives and cards apart In-Reply-To: References: <2877B33C3A8B42B2917A94952AAA92F3@game> <49696A20.9050001@gmail.com> <49697B83.9060007@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <496BCB8B.5060800@jwsss.com> Rich Alderson wrote: > From: jim s > Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 8:54 PM > > >> The HVD bus is designed such that if you plug it into a SE bus it will >> go into reset and go passive. There is a signal DIFFSNS on the HVD that >> will disable the bus. Not good, but better than nothing if you mess up >> and plug them together. >> > > I don't think so. The XKL Toad-1 was designed with FASTWIDE differential SCSI, > and any single-ended peripheral that got connected accidentally was guaranteed > to lose the magic smoke and go off to live with . We were > in complete accordance with the SCSI specs. > We had a SCSI development system at Peer Protocols, as well as wide sniffer. on the sense side, with the sniffer, we did hadd an electrical design that could tolerate the misconnection of devices and not catch fire, though we had a standard adapter to go from differential to SE that you were supposed to use. The design used at least with our equipment would be in reset. I don't know what happend if you plugged something in with the power on, but if you connected the pile up and it was wrong and then powered things up, you were covered. Also I don't recall if there was any issues in the device order. My observation in the previous post had to do with seeing the reset on our analyzer when the HD device was connected and wondering why the bus was held reset. It was a non smoking situation. I wonder if perhaps the problem was with the fact it was wide and not the narrow variety of bus? The additional 8 bits and parity were sort of the bastard child added. on after the fact of the original design. It was quite a trick to figure out w/o watching the SCSI Domain info whether all 16 bits were active or just 8 in a give transfer. This might apply to hardware as well. Jim From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Jan 13 01:59:06 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 23:59:06 -0800 Subject: Price of 1kB SRAM in late 1970's? References: <496C3A8D.8090706@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <496C49CA.1F68B994@cs.ubc.ca> Jim Brain wrote: > > Anyone have a rough idea? If you're talking bare chips: from the back pages of Kilobaud, May'77, SD Sales has a deal on 21L02's (1K*1,500nS): 8 for $12.95 Prices from other back-page retailers are similar, around 1.20 - 1.70 for 2102's. >From the same mag Sep'79, prices for a 2102 are about the same. Here's another deal from '79, 2114's (1K*4): 8 for $45-50, so still around 12$ per KByte. Granted, those are all probably floor sweepings. From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Tue Jan 13 03:59:38 2009 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 01:59:38 -0800 Subject: "Tyrotek" analog computer References: <49699ECB.E8A9D0D2@cs.ubc.ca> <496AFA01.7F8AA221@cs.ubc.ca> <496B6ACB.4080106@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <000c01c97565$a5e08030$0201a8c0@hal9000> Brent, I have a PDF of the schematic for the Heathkit EC-1 and / or there is a guy on Ebay selling the Operations manual for $8.00 and free shipping ; Item number - 120362320437 Best regards, Steven > dwight elvey wrote: > > > > > From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca > > > There are a total of 10 amps. 4 can be configured as integrators or summers, 4 > > > are just summers. 2 have associated circuitry to make them into multipliers > > > or dividers, or can be used as just summers. > > > > Hi > > It does sound like what was used as the basis for the Comdyna 10. > > You might email the fellow at Comdyna and ask if he recognizes this > > machine. > > Found the web page, and yes, it does seem similar in size and functionality to > the Comdyna GP-6 or 10. I'll follow up with him as you suggest. > > > > > It's currently in a million pieces across 3 workbenches, almost ready for > > > reassembly. (Most of the nuts and screws and a few other metal parts had grown > > > that white powder that develops under certain conditions on some metal > > > surfaces. I've seen it on other equipment, I presume it's an oxide of the metal > > > plating, although it also has the appearance of a mildew or fungus. I'm not sure > > > what element the plating is. Fortunately, it's only a 'mechanical' issue, it isn't > > > affecting the circuitry or contacts.) > > > > Most likely zinc, lead or aluminum oxides. This is common for items store > > where they might have condensing moisture. > > In it's 'normal' form the plating has a flat white-grey appearance, no blue or > yellow tinge as one gets with other plates. To my observation it was used > roughly from the late-30's/40s to the 60s/early-70's and then (thankfully) > seems to have fallen out of favour. > > > > I've played some with them. A fun example is the bouncing ball example > > from the EC-1 by heath kit. It will give you an idea of how one models > > a physical system into the computer. > > Look at the configuration. There is a way to reduce the number of > > op-amps needed by one ( I forget now ). It saves two free amps that > > can be used to create a sine/cosine oscillator for the ball instead of > > the 60 Hz one in the example. For use with a plotter, you don't want > > the ball anyway, it is just fun on an oscilloscope but not needed > > otherwise. A dot bounces just as nicely. > > .. have to see if one can still get the manual for the EC-1, re discussion of a > couple of weeks ago about access to Heath manuals being removed from the web. From austin at ozpass.co.uk Tue Jan 13 05:11:40 2009 From: austin at ozpass.co.uk (Austin Pass) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 11:11:40 +0000 Subject: NCCC - Sunfire V100 / Solaris In-Reply-To: <496BCBB3.4010601@ubanproductions.com> References: <17554.62.140.137.30.1231605335.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <496BCBB3.4010601@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: On 12 Jan 2009, at 23:01, Tom Uban wrote: > Hi Ed, > > Yes, it looks like Solaris can access either TTY via configuration, > but I still have the LOMlite login/password problem to work around > be fore I will be able to install from the Solaris CD. I wish that > sun had a forum, but they don't appear to... > > --tom comp.sys.sun.hardware is still very active though.... Plenty of "classic" Sun hardware discussion as well. -Austin. From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Jan 13 08:27:40 2009 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 06:27:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: <496C2895.1020203@oldskool.org> References: <20090110150130.C5A5FBA4DA5@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <200901110954.29968.rtellason@verizon.net>, <496B5086.5090603@garlic.com>, <496C2895.1020203@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Jan 2009, Jim Leonard wrote: > have met otherwise, thanks to the internet becoming a commodity (hell, in my > house, it's a *utility*). > I think this is the case with many of us. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From blstuart at bellsouth.net Tue Jan 13 09:13:39 2009 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 15:13:39 +0000 Subject: Price of 1kB SRAM in late 1970's? In-Reply-To: <496C3A8D.8090706@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <011320091513.6639.496CAFA3000E3F4E000019EF22230682329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> > Anyone have a rough idea? It depended on a lot of factors, but as one data point, I bought a 4K S-100 kit in around 78-79 for about $80. That would be $20/K in terms of a full board. Denser boards were cheaper per K, and of course a handful of chips would also be cheaper. BLS From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Jan 13 10:00:56 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 08:00:56 -0800 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: References: Your message of Mon, 12 Jan 2009 19:22:37 -0800. Message-ID: >-----Original Message----- >From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard >Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 10:45 PM >To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs to cease? > > >In article , > Ian King writes: > >> I'm not complaining, but it is a touch sad that DDJ, C Users Journal >and >> the like are part of history. It was fun to see people argue about >the >> syntax of some obscure C construct or the virtues of one architecture >> over another, and even more fun to weigh in. -- Ian > >The same experience exists today, its called the 'net. Whether its >mailing lists, or comp.lang.c++, or a blog, the social interaction is >still there -- its just not mediated by a dead tree magazine. We >don't *need* the magazines as a springboard for our conversations >anymore -- we can talk to each other directly. The community of >programmers is more alive than ever from where I sit, its just not >happening on the pages of dead tree magazines like BYTE or DDJ. >-- I disagree, and that's part of my original comment. That 'mediation' you denigrate is not terribly unlike what academic journals call 'peer review' - not just any goofball could shoot off his mouth. With the 'dead tree magazines' I knew there was some sort of editorial oversight, which raised the signal-to-noise ratio and lowered the waste of my time. And with multiple publications, I could choose my 'filter factor.' By comparison, it isn't at all uncommon for mailing list threads to get hijacked by various forms of distraction, and the blog has nowhere near the level of accountability to, well, anything. The open communication of the 'net and the focused delivery of a publication are two complementary concepts, and I'm sorry to see one of them apparently dying off. From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Tue Jan 13 10:05:17 2009 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 08:05:17 -0800 Subject: "Tyrotek" analog computer In-Reply-To: <496C30F1.75C99D3@cs.ubc.ca> References: <49699ECB.E8A9D0D2@cs.ubc.ca> <496AFA01.7F8AA221@cs.ubc.ca> <496C30F1.75C99D3@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <496CBBBD.7010308@sbcglobal.net> Brent Hilpert wrote: ---- snipped ------ > > > .. have to see if one can still get the manual for the EC-1, re discussion of a > couple of weeks ago about access to Heath manuals being removed from the web. > I put up my copy here: http://www.dvq.com/docs/oldhkits/EC1-OP.pdf Bob / / From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 13 10:19:11 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 11:19:11 -0500 Subject: XKL TOAD (was: Re: How to tell differential scsi drives and cards apart) In-Reply-To: References: <2877B33C3A8B42B2917A94952AAA92F3@game> <49696A20.9050001@gmail.com> <49697B83.9060007@jwsss.com> <496BA74F.6060907@hawkmountain.net> <7d3530220901121232g7e6862b6x85cb5a99b8dd0dea@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45CDE429-2D35-4AE4-91DB-164B89DE9EDE@neurotica.com> On Jan 12, 2009, at 4:32 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: >> I'd sure like to find one... be interested to see how many remain. > > We built fewer than 20. A dozen were used in-house as a platform for > the next product, which went through several years of iterating into > what you now find on the XKL web site. (They may still be in use, but > I haven't worked for XKL for nearly 6 years and don't know what > they're using these days.) > > Two were sold to MCI/BT Tymnet, to replace their 4 KL-10 systems. > These were retired shortly after the turn of the century, and placed > into the hands of the gentlemen responsible for their being placed > into service at Tymshare. One is still in private hands; the other > was scrapped by an operation manager who did not know what he was > doing (or perhaps he did). > > One went to Digital in exchange for a revision of the licensing > contract for 36-bit software. It is now in the possession of the > Computer History Museum. > > One was purchased by Paul Allen, and is freely available for public > access. Accounts can be requested through the PDP Planet web site, > under the Community button. > > One was given to a well-known collector of PDP-10 equipment who has > been a friend to the owner of XKL since the early days of cisco > Systems. It included the only copy of the Tops-10 port for the > Toad-1. And one is in the possession of my acquaintance Peter Lothberg, unless that's who you're talking about in the last paragraph. (he has done a lot of work for Cisco) -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 13 10:21:18 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 11:21:18 -0500 Subject: How to tell differential scsi drives and cards apart In-Reply-To: <496BCB8B.5060800@jwsss.com> References: <2877B33C3A8B42B2917A94952AAA92F3@game> <49696A20.9050001@gmail.com> <49697B83.9060007@jwsss.com> <496BCB8B.5060800@jwsss.com> Message-ID: You wrote: > The HVD bus is designed such that if you plug it into a SE bus it will > go into reset and go passive. There is a signal DIFFSNS on the HVD > that > will disable the bus. Not good, but better than nothing if you > mess up > and plug them together. DIFFSENS is a nice idea, but some drives don't implement it. I've had differential drives go up in smoke because of this. Granted this was a long time ago (1993) and the drives were small (600MB?), so this was more in the days of creative interpretation of the SCSI standard. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Jan 13 11:16:19 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 12:16:19 -0500 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200901131216.19293.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 13 January 2009 11:00:56 am Ian King wrote: > >-----Original Message----- > >From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > >bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard > >Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 10:45 PM > >To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs to cease? > > > > > >In article , > > > > Ian King writes: > >> I'm not complaining, but it is a touch sad that DDJ, C Users Journal > >> and the like are part of history. It was fun to see people argue about > >> the syntax of some obscure C construct or the virtues of one architecture > >> over another, and even more fun to weigh in. -- Ian > > > > The same experience exists today, its called the 'net. Whether its > > mailing lists, or comp.lang.c++, or a blog, the social interaction is > > still there -- its just not mediated by a dead tree magazine. We > > don't *need* the magazines as a springboard for our conversations > > anymore -- we can talk to each other directly. The community of > > programmers is more alive than ever from where I sit, its just not > > happening on the pages of dead tree magazines like BYTE or DDJ. > >-- > > I disagree, and that's part of my original comment. That 'mediation' you > denigrate is not terribly unlike what academic journals call 'peer review' > - not just any goofball could shoot off his mouth. With the 'dead tree > magazines' I knew there was some sort of editorial oversight, which raised > the signal-to-noise ratio and lowered the waste of my time. And with > multiple publications, I could choose my 'filter factor.' By comparison, > it isn't at all uncommon for mailing list threads to get hijacked by > various forms of distraction, and the blog has nowhere near the level of > accountability to, well, anything. > > The open communication of the 'net and the focused delivery of a > publication are two complementary concepts, and I'm sorry to see one of > them apparently dying off. I can't remember for sure, but it might've been Ted Nelson (?) who theorized a while back that the "editor" function would still be an important one as information trended toward being communicated electronically. This seems to be happening in such contexts as moderated lists, but it could stand to spread a bit further, I think. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Jan 13 11:08:40 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 12:08:40 -0500 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200901131208.41165.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 13 January 2009 01:46:31 am Richard wrote: > In article <496C2895.1020203 at oldskool.org>, > > Jim Leonard writes: > > An excellent observation, and one that has been hard for me to adjust > > to. My memories of dialing BBSes are fond because using a BBS wasn't > > always trivial, so the people you met via BBSes had to have at least a > > base level of intelligence in order for you to meet. > > I suppose that depends on which BBS you used; around Utah, the biggest > BBS was a multi-line chat system called "Lower Lights" and believe me > the minimum intelligence level needed to get on that system was pretty > low. This area was dominated for a while (pre-PC) by BBSs running on C64s, with pretty much the same crowd on all of them. There were a few exceptions, though, one guy running on an Apple of some sort (moved to a IIgs at some point) and another that ran on an Osborne Executive! On that one you got dropped at a CP/M prompt. :-) I have the external HD box w/ controller from that one sitting at about arm's length from me with the ST225 I retrofitted into it still in there. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Jan 13 11:06:11 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 12:06:11 -0500 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200901131206.11848.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 13 January 2009 01:45:16 am Richard wrote: > In article , > > Ian King writes: > > I'm not complaining, but it is a touch sad that DDJ, C Users Journal and > > the like are part of history. It was fun to see people argue about the > > syntax of some obscure C construct or the virtues of one architecture > > over another, and even more fun to weigh in. -- Ian > > The same experience exists today, its called the 'net. Whether its > mailing lists, or comp.lang.c++, or a blog, the social interaction is > still there -- its just not mediated by a dead tree magazine. We > don't *need* the magazines as a springboard for our conversations > anymore -- we can talk to each other directly. The community of > programmers is more alive than ever from where I sit, its just not > happening on the pages of dead tree magazines like BYTE or DDJ. Funny, I used to think of Byte as a hardware mag... It was when they drifted away from that I started to lose interest. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 13 12:29:25 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 11:29:25 -0700 Subject: ebay idiots Message-ID: Take a look at item # 130281137792 -- an HP2647A terminal with no keyboard, some rust and a fairly bad case of screen rot. The seller listed it yesterday for $900 initial bid or $1500 buy-it-now. I politely sent them a note explaining that their prices were an order of magnitude too high, particularly considering the condition of the unit. So what did they do? Dropped it to $400 opening bid. Yeah, right. Terminals are getting scarce, but not *that* scarce -- its more likely that people's interest in serial terminals would dry up before they'd pay through the nose for a 2647A. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jan 13 12:33:57 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 11:33:57 -0700 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: <200901131206.11848.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200901131206.11848.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <496CDE95.4070808@jetnet.ab.ca> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > Funny, I used to think of Byte as a hardware mag... I think it was when they dropped 'small systems' from their title they started to go down hill for hardware. > It was when they drifted away from that I started to lose interest. > From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 13 12:43:15 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 11:43:15 -0700 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 13 Jan 2009 12:06:11 -0500. <200901131206.11848.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: In article <200901131206.11848.rtellason at verizon.net>, "Roy J. Tellason" writes: > Funny, I used to think of Byte as a hardware mag... > > It was when they drifted away from that I started to lose interest. More hardware discussion happens on the net nowadays than ever happened in BYTE magazine, even in its heyday. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jan 13 12:44:02 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 11:44:02 -0700 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: <496CDE95.4070808@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200901131206.11848.rtellason@verizon.net> <496CDE95.4070808@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <496CE0F2.2090709@jetnet.ab.ca> bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > I think it was when they dropped 'small systems' from their title they > started to > go down hill for hardware. I liked the covers too... The island of smalltalk comes to mind. PS. What ever happend to smalltalk as hardware/programing language system? From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 13 12:52:26 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 11:52:26 -0700 Subject: Smalltalk (was: Dr. Dobbs to cease?) In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 13 Jan 2009 11:44:02 -0700. <496CE0F2.2090709@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: In article <496CE0F2.2090709 at jetnet.ab.ca>, "bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca" writes: > PS. What ever happend to smalltalk as hardware/programing language > system? Smalltalk is still around and has influenced the software development community fairly significantly through practitioners like Ward Cunningham and Kent Beck. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Jan 13 12:47:52 2009 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 12:47:52 -0600 Subject: Price of 1kB SRAM in late 1970's? In-Reply-To: <496C49CA.1F68B994@cs.ubc.ca> References: <496C3A8D.8090706@jbrain.com> <496C49CA.1F68B994@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20090113122836.06d6a290@mail.threedee.com> At 01:59 AM 1/13/2009, Brent Hilpert wrote: >Here's another deal from '79, 2114's (1K*4): 8 for $45-50, so still around 12$ >per KByte. Depending on how you measure it (via www.measuringworth.com) that $12 is about $35-40 in today's dollars. And by Xmas '08, Amazon.com sold a 4 gigabyte microSD for $9. - John From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Tue Jan 13 12:56:44 2009 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 13:56:44 -0500 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: <496CE0F2.2090709@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200901131206.11848.rtellason@verizon.net> <496CDE95.4070808@jetnet.ab.ca> <496CE0F2.2090709@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <5f7d1b0e0901131056o6eed12f7w4a432fec6affdcf1@mail.gmail.com> Smalltalk begat Squeak, which is what the Sugar interface is based on in those new XO laptops. I think that Cycling 74's music software is written in Smalltalk as well. On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 1:44 PM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca < bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> wrote: > bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > > I think it was when they dropped 'small systems' from their title they >> started to >> go down hill for hardware. >> > > I liked the covers too... The island of smalltalk comes to mind. > > PS. What ever happend to smalltalk as hardware/programing language > system? > > > > From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Jan 13 12:56:56 2009 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 12:56:56 -0600 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <496CE3F8.4020401@oldskool.org> Richard wrote: >> Funny, I used to think of Byte as a hardware mag... >> >> It was when they drifted away from that I started to lose interest. > > More hardware discussion happens on the net nowadays than ever > happened in BYTE magazine, even in its heyday. But that's because the viewship of online people has exceeded the readership of offline people. Twenty years ago, you could not say that, as the situation was reversed. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 13 12:40:05 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 11:40:05 -0700 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 13 Jan 2009 08:00:56 -0800. Message-ID: In article , Ian King writes: > >The same experience exists today, its called the 'net. Whether its > >mailing lists, or comp.lang.c++, or a blog, the social interaction is > >still there -- its just not mediated by a dead tree magazine. [...] > > I disagree, and that's part of my original comment. That 'mediation' > you denigrate Please don't pretend you know what I'm saying better than I do. I neither praised nor condemned the mediation through a dead tree magazine, I simply stated it as such. There are enough interactions on the net that you can pick and choose the ones that have the signal/noise ratio you like. In fact, comp.lang.c++ is moderated, so you're unlikely to get just any goofball shooting off his mouth. Pretending that the net is *only* unfiltered voices of dubious quality is the kind of retort I'd expect from an idiot like Dan Rather who lambasted all the bloggers "in their pajamas" who caught him red handed trying to pass off a fraud as journalism. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Jan 13 14:39:45 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 12:39:45 -0800 Subject: XKL TOAD (was: Re: How to tell differential scsi drives and cards apart) In-Reply-To: <45CDE429-2D35-4AE4-91DB-164B89DE9EDE@neurotica.com> References: <2877B33C3A8B42B2917A94952AAA92F3@game> <49696A20.9050001@gmail.com> <49697B83.9060007@jwsss.com> <496BA74F.6060907@hawkmountain.net> <7d3530220901121232g7e6862b6x85cb5a99b8dd0dea@mail.gmail.com> <45CDE429-2D35-4AE4-91DB-164B89DE9EDE@neurotica.com> Message-ID: From: Dave McGuire Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 8:19 AM > On Jan 12, 2009, at 4:32 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: [snip] >> Two were sold to MCI/BT Tymnet, to replace their 4 KL-10 systems. >> These were retired shortly after the turn of the century, and placed >> into the hands of the gentlemen responsible for their being placed >> into service at Tymshare. One is still in private hands; the other >> was scrapped by an operation manager who did not know what he was >> doing (or perhaps he did). >> One went to Digital in exchange for a revision of the licensing >> contract for 36-bit software. It is now in the possession of the >> Computer History Museum. >> One was purchased by Paul Allen, and is freely available for public >> access. Accounts can be requested through the PDP Planet web site, >> under the Community button. >> One was given to a well-known collector of PDP-10 equipment who has >> been a friend to the owner of XKL since the early days of cisco >> Systems. It included the only copy of the Tops-10 port for the >> Toad-1. > And one is in the possession of my acquaintance Peter Lothberg, > unless that's who you're talking about in the last paragraph. (he > has done a lot of work for Cisco) Mm-hmm. He was one of cisco's first customers in Europe. His friend, the owner of XKL, co-founded cisco Systems. Notice that I didn't use *anyone's* name who has not made ownership of a Toad-1 public knowledge. Rich Alderson Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 13 14:54:59 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 13:54:59 -0700 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 13 Jan 2009 12:56:56 -0600. <496CE3F8.4020401@oldskool.org> Message-ID: In article <496CE3F8.4020401 at oldskool.org>, Jim Leonard writes: > Richard wrote: > >> Funny, I used to think of Byte as a hardware mag... > >> > >> It was when they drifted away from that I started to lose interest. > > > > More hardware discussion happens on the net nowadays than ever > > happened in BYTE magazine, even in its heyday. > > But that's because the viewship of online people has exceeded the > readership of offline people. Twenty years ago, you could not say that, > as the situation was reversed. And the sun rises in the east. Sorry, but what you just said feels like a tautological statement to me. Yeah, 20 years ago there weren't as many people online. But even 20 years ago (that's 1989), BYTE was already dead (last issue July '98) and DDJ was already declining. There was a point when I regularly went to the newsstand to seek out both of those magazines, but by 1990 that time had already come and gone for both of them. I think I had given up on BYTE a few years before it ceased publication. That DDJ has hung on this long shows some determination on the part of its staff, but having received their last print issue in the mail just the other day, I would say that it was a rather pathetic end to that magazine. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jan 13 16:56:18 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 22:56:18 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Flexicord cables get bent... and stay that way Message-ID: <543255.49512.qm@web23402.mail.ird.yahoo.com> This is cool, or is it just me? Anyway, I suspect there might be uses for these special cables should they cross-breed with a parallel cable or other retro cables :) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk http://www.engadget.com/2009/01/13/flexicord-cables-get-bent-and-stay-that-way/ | Comments Ever have a cable you wanted to strangle? Well you're not alone, apparently. A company called E-Filliate issued a new series of USB, HDMI, Cat5, S-Video, and composite cables called Flexicord at CES this year which will bend -- and stay -- in any position you please, thus eliminating that frustration you must feel every time you plug in your camera or hook up your high fidelity sound system. The cables act like pipe cleaner or Gumby, so you can twist and shape them as you please, though apparently Pokey had to be killed and dissected so the technology could be obtained. Enjoy your new cable, murderers. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 13 17:04:57 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 15:04:57 -0800 Subject: Flexicord cables get bent... and stay that way In-Reply-To: <543255.49512.qm@web23402.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <543255.49512.qm@web23402.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <496CAD99.21168.155B9CDC@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Jan 2009 at 22:56, Andrew Burton wrote: > > This is cool, or is it just me? > > Anyway, I suspect there might be uses for these special cables should they cross-breed with a parallel cable or other retro cables :) I've got a roll of #6 solid copper wire that behaves the same way... Cheers, Chuck From jason at havnet.net Tue Jan 13 17:31:09 2009 From: jason at havnet.net (HavNet) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 23:31:09 +0000 Subject: Commodore Pet 2001 Troubles Message-ID: <88975c85e2225a1fa7bdd355904e2518@webmail.havnetmail.net> Dear Fellow Enthusiasts ... Firstly, I must admit to being somewhat of a 'lurker' here reading with great interest the postings and never failing to be amazed at the shear amount of amassed knowledge on the subject. My thanks to you all. Is there anyone here that can help me with a Commodore Pet problem that is really starting bug me !! It is a Pet 2001 32N with a Computhink Pet II Disk Controller Board and a pair of Dual Computhink drives (Model : DKH 642-I). The machine starts up just fine and you can enter DISKMON by typing SYS11*4096 However, upon entering commands like $LOD,1,"FOO" the screen turns to a complete screen full of small squares - chequer board style. Upon the command $DIR,1 the screen briefly displays a boarder around the screen where the directory content would normally appear and as soon as the drive activates the screen turns to chequer board. I have done the usual of re-seating the IC's, and I am hoping this isn't failed ROM. Another clue maybe that for some reason, when the drives are activated, BOTH drives activate together, which obviously they shouldnt. I haven't yet gone to the lengths of scoping the control lines but will start there tommorrow evening ... Does this sound like a problem that anyone has enountered before? Are there any 'Petsperts' out there that could help get this machine back on the road? Thanks in Anticipation Jason Fitzpatrick www.ComputingHistory.org.uk From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jan 13 17:56:06 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 18:56:06 -0500 Subject: Commodore Pet 2001 Troubles In-Reply-To: <88975c85e2225a1fa7bdd355904e2518@webmail.havnetmail.net> References: <88975c85e2225a1fa7bdd355904e2518@webmail.havnetmail.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 6:31 PM, HavNet wrote: > Is there anyone here that can help me with a Commodore Pet problem that is really starting bug me !! I'll give it a shot. > It is a Pet 2001 32N with a Computhink Pet II Disk Controller Board and a pair of Dual Computhink drives (Model : DKH 642-I). Nice. I wanted a Computhink back in the day - I already had a bare 8" drive and couldn't afford a 2040 when they were new. Eventually, used 5.25" drives came down in price (some time after the 1541 and 2031 came out), so after a time, I went with genuine CBM disks. > The machine starts up just fine and you can enter DISKMON by typing SYS11*4096 OK. > However, upon entering commands like $LOD,1,"FOO" the screen turns to a complete screen full of small squares - chequer board > style. Upon the command $DIR,1 the screen briefly displays a boarder around the screen where the directory content would > normally appear and as soon as the drive activates the screen turns to chequer board. > > I have done the usual of re-seating the IC's, and I am hoping this isn't failed ROM. Given the scenarios I can imagine for your setup, it's an unfortunately easy explanation that satisfies your symptoms. > Another clue maybe that for some reason, when the drives are activated, BOTH > drives activate together, which obviously they shouldnt. I haven't yet gone to the > lengths of scoping the control lines but will start there tommorrow evening ... Interesting clue. > Does this sound like a problem that anyone has enountered before? Not me personally, but I've seen all sorts of strange behavior from bad ROMs (it doesn't happen often, but it does happen). > Are there any 'Petsperts' out there that could help get this machine back on the road? Well... do you have any other utility ROMs? BASIC 2.0 and BASIC 4.0 PETs have a simplistic "TIM" machine language monitor built-in. You can invoke it by SYS 1024 (or any other location with a zero byte), or there is an official entry point that I'm forgetting off the top of my head. Whether you have an add-on monitor program or use the built-in TIM, the syntax for a memory dump is the same. At the "." prompt, type "M B000 B020". Since you say your DISKMON program is at "11*4096", that's the entry point. I'm guessing things will look OK since you invoke it and you get a prompt back. What's probably happening is that the initialization code is patching "CHRGET" in zero page, which is normally used to fetch BASIC keywords for tokenization, but is often patched to extend the interactive command set. In your case, I'm guessing there'll be a pretty simple patch to check for an initial "$" and either jump off to DISKMON commands or back into BASIC for regular commands. Speaking of that, after you invoke DISKMON, do _all_ commands give you the checkerboard or just DISKMON commands? That can help distinguish where things are going wrong. I'm guessing that your interface board has an EPROM - one possibility is that your EPROM is undergoing bitrot from age. I do not have any technical info on your interface (I wish I did), but if you have schematics or a ROM dump, that could be very helpful. Reverse-engineering the interface would probably not be _too_ difficult, but reconstructing the firmware from scratch is rather unlikely to be feasible. So does anyone on the list have a ROM image for a Computhink interface? Schematics? One other resource to invoke is to suggest you join the CBM Hackers mailing list and ask questions there - there are many people on it that know deep and intimate details about PETs, but to be honest, there's more known about C= machines and peripherals than 3rd party devices, so the better the docs you have with your interface, the better off you might be. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 13 18:23:41 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 19:23:41 -0500 Subject: XKL TOAD (was: Re: How to tell differential scsi drives and cards apart) In-Reply-To: References: <2877B33C3A8B42B2917A94952AAA92F3@game> <49696A20.9050001@gmail.com> <49697B83.9060007@jwsss.com> <496BA74F.6060907@hawkmountain.net> <7d3530220901121232g7e6862b6x85cb5a99b8dd0dea@mail.gmail.com> <45CDE429-2D35-4AE4-91DB-164B89DE9EDE@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <265BA94E-F65C-4F87-A569-167DCAA39418@neurotica.com> On Jan 13, 2009, at 3:39 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: >> And one is in the possession of my acquaintance Peter Lothberg, >> unless that's who you're talking about in the last paragraph. (he >> has done a lot of work for Cisco) > > Mm-hmm. > > He was one of cisco's first customers in Europe. His friend, the > owner of XKL, co-founded cisco Systems. Notice that I didn't use > *anyone's* name who has not made ownership of a Toad-1 public > knowledge. As far as I'm aware, it is public knowledge. At least he never treated it as much of a secret. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jan 13 21:22:04 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 19:22:04 -0800 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: <496CE0F2.2090709@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200901131206.11848.rtellason@verizon.net> <496CDE95.4070808@jetnet.ab.ca> <496CE0F2.2090709@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca > > bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > >> I think it was when they dropped 'small systems' from their title they >> started to >> go down hill for hardware. > > I liked the covers too... The island of smalltalk comes to mind. > > PS. What ever happend to smalltalk as hardware/programing language > system? > Hi I'd never considered SmalTalk as a language that has a small foot print or as a language for hardware control. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_howitworks_012009 From tosteve at yahoo.com Tue Jan 13 22:14:26 2009 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 20:14:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Tandy 2100 for sale in Michigan Message-ID: <393148.11447.qm@web110609.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> This is not my system contact Donald below if interested ======================================================== Donald Case from Michigan writes: I have a functional Tandy 2100 w/monitor keyboard and mouse. It runs great but I don't know the passwords for the windows screen and so I was only able to play around on it. Please make a reasonable offer! Donald Case donaldrcase3 at gmail.com From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Jan 13 23:19:05 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 21:19:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: ebay idiots In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Jan 2009, Richard wrote: > Take a look at item # 130281137792 -- an HP2647A terminal with no > keyboard, some rust and a fairly bad case of screen rot. > > The seller listed it yesterday for $900 initial bid or $1500 > buy-it-now. > > I politely sent them a note explaining that their prices were an > order of magnitude too high, particularly considering the condition of > the unit. > > So what did they do? Dropped it to $400 opening bid. > > Yeah, right. > > Terminals are getting scarce, but not *that* scarce -- its more likely > that people's interest in serial terminals would dry up before they'd > pay through the nose for a 2647A. Now it's down to $99. Given its condition, free for shipping sounds like the best thing to expect. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Jan 13 23:36:04 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 00:36:04 -0500 Subject: XKL TOAD (was: Re: How to tell differential scsi drives and cards apart) In-Reply-To: References: <2877B33C3A8B42B2917A94952AAA92F3@game> <45CDE429-2D35-4AE4-91DB-164B89DE9EDE@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200901140036.04570.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 13 January 2009, Rich Alderson wrote: > He was one of cisco's first customers in Europe. His friend, the > owner of XKL, co-founded cisco Systems. Notice that I didn't use > *anyone's* name who has not made ownership of a Toad-1 public > knowledge. So, for curiosity's sake, how much money did a Toad-1 sell for when they were being produced? Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From robinson at shlrc.mq.edu.au Tue Jan 13 23:48:00 2009 From: robinson at shlrc.mq.edu.au (robinson at shlrc.mq.edu.au) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 16:48:00 +1100 (EST) Subject: TAXAN KS12R101S cuircuit required Message-ID: <34634.137.111.158.30.1231912080.squirrel@www.ling.mq.edu.au> Hi there, My TAXAN KS12R101S colour monitor for my Apple IIe is dead. A capacitor has exploded a long time ago, and electrolyte has corroded several parts. I have washed it in water, scrubbed the stuff off, dried it, and replaced 2 electros, but a resistor has corroded away to nothing, and I do not know its value. The monitor powers up, I can hear he EHT start, but no display. Does anyone know where I can get a circuit please. Regards Ray From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Jan 14 00:57:52 2009 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 22:57:52 -0800 Subject: NCCC - Sunfire V100 / Solaris In-Reply-To: <496BCBB3.4010601@ubanproductions.com> References: <17554.62.140.137.30.1231605335.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <496BCBB3.4010601@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <53A22B0926E74BFE905A6EA08C7C33D4@liberator> If the V100 is the model I think it is, you can get a "new" config card, the NVRAM settings are stored on the config card. Another way that I have heard works but can be dangerous is to bring up another V100, and swap cards and "save" the nvram settings in the working system to the passworded card. From bqt at softjar.se Tue Jan 13 10:41:09 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 17:41:09 +0100 Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: <200901131624.n0DGNMpx052135@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901131624.n0DGNMpx052135@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <496CC425.6050103@softjar.se> Dave McGuire wrote: > > On Jan 12, 2009, at 4:32 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: >> > One was given to a well-known collector of PDP-10 equipment who has >> > been a friend to the owner of XKL since the early days of cisco >> > Systems. It included the only copy of the Tops-10 port for the >> > Toad-1. > > And one is in the possession of my acquaintance Peter Lothberg, > unless that's who you're talking about in the last paragraph. (he > has done a lot of work for Cisco) I think it's pretty safe to assume that this was a reference to Peter. He's the only one I know who really have a collection of PDP-10 machines (including a tri-SMP KI-10 running TOPS-10). Unfortunately, much of his stuff is in storage nowadays. But it's not that far from me... :-) Johnny From jws at jwsss.com Tue Jan 13 14:29:08 2009 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 12:29:08 -0800 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <496CF994.5080104@jwsss.com> Richard wrote: Quoted Ian: I believe that there are two different issues here. Moderation of a forum of which the the membership of is open to anyone is different than the model where the writers and participants are chosen and there is an editor / writer relationship in place. It requires some business model or resource to support the latter, since there is usually going to be a dedicated group if there is to be any quality to it, in order for the enterprise to function. Selling magazines used to do that. I do not believe that there is the same resource to support these with online models. It remains to be seen if the old publishing companies with magazines and an online presence can survive, or if other ones will. Certainly the treatment of the DDJ readership was not handled very well. I would think that there would have been a cost effective model which would have allowed for all online publishing and getting rid of the cost of the physical magazine as a step rather than effectively erasing it the way they did. Having a group like this with minimum moderation and one which is heavily edited like the comp group mentioned is not going to produce the same results. Jim From jws at jwsss.com Tue Jan 13 14:55:31 2009 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 12:55:31 -0800 Subject: HVD SCSI Tape library Message-ID: <496CFFC3.7040608@jwsss.com> I have an elder setup I would like to plumb with cables, but do not have all I need. It is a tape library with 2 wide connectors, and an Adaptec 2944 in the host. I am thinking of a 3' or so wide cable (68 pin) with 3 connectors that are male, and each end with a female connector. I can terminate it at each end with the terminators I have, since the controller I have puts out termpwr. Any suggestions or sources or ideas. Anyone have such a beast to spare? thanks Jim From chemingson8525 at charter.net Tue Jan 13 21:27:54 2009 From: chemingson8525 at charter.net (Tom and Cindy) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 21:27:54 -0600 Subject: Latest find : IBM display writer Message-ID: <496D5BBA.9080107@charter.net> I need a copy of the diplaywriter operating system diskettes. I have a complete displaywriter system but no O.S. Thanks Latest find : IBM display writer *Curt Vendel* curt at atarimuseum.com /Fri Aug 2 14:14:10 CDT 2002/ * Previous message: Latest find : IBM display writer <000813.html> * Next message: Latest find : IBM display writer <000846.html> * *Messages sorted by:* [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I thought IBM Displaywriters were their line of daisywheel letter quality printers??? Curt liste at artware.qc.ca wrote: >/ So I walking up to a Dirty Garage (Vente de Garage Sale :) and spotted a />/ grey box that looked like it might be some sort of Mac or stranger from />/ the rear. Coming to the front, I see it is a dual 8 inch disquette drive! />/ The owner of the dirty garage came up to me and, spying my Linux t-shirt, />/ claimed it was Linux compatible. A good chuckle was had. />/ />/ However, the drive was part of a complete Displaywriter, which he was />/ giving away. So I backed my car up and loaded it all in. />/ />/ - 6580 Electronics Module, display, keyboard />/ - 6360 Diskette Unit />/ - 5215 Printer />/ />/ Doco : />/ - IBM Displaywriter System Customer Setup Guide />/ - IBM Displaywriter KWIC [sic] Reference guide />/ - 11 binders of Textpack tutorials (and documentation?) />/ />/ - Several sets of software. Haven't checked if it's multiple versions of />/ same programs or many different programs />/ - Many more 8 inch diskettes, including 5-10 unused still in plastic />/ - 2 loose boards, in a bag w/ small piece of paper where upon it is />/ written : "Defective, changed summer 93" in french />/ />/ I haven't fired it up yet to see if it works. However, I *must* />/ get rid of it as I have no space for it. So, is anyone interested? My />/ cost : FREE CHEAP. Of course, you pay for shipping from southern Quebec />/ (which won't be cheap for something this heavy). Better yet, come and />/ pick it up! I'd even be prepared to deliver it to somewhere close by (I'm />/ in Estrie) or even Montreal (I go there often). />/ />/ If there are no takers w/in a month, I'll probably end up as landfill />/ (except the diskettes). />/ />/ -Philip / From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 14 01:51:32 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 23:51:32 -0800 Subject: Latest find : IBM display writer In-Reply-To: <496D5BBA.9080107@charter.net> References: <496D5BBA.9080107@charter.net> Message-ID: <496D2904.14633.173D6CAC@cclist.sydex.com> *Curt Vendel* curt at atarimuseum.com wrote > I thought IBM Displaywriters were their line of daisywheel letter quality > printers??? Nope, 8086-based box. EBCDIC-based with ISTR optional hook-in to IBM mainframe systems. When I was cracking DW codes, I recall that about half the text- formatting smarts were in the printer, not in the x86 box. There was a small market for 3rd party software for the thing also. Cheers, Chuck From michaelgreen42 at comcast.net Wed Jan 14 02:24:47 2009 From: michaelgreen42 at comcast.net (Michael) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 00:24:47 -0800 Subject: NeXT Turbo Slab In-Reply-To: <200901121801.n0CI18Y1040011@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901121801.n0CI18Y1040011@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <071a01c97621$9074c5a0$b15e50e0$@net> Posted to eBay. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=120363318389&ssPageN ame=STRK:MESE:IT&ih=002 From dholland at woh.rr.com Wed Jan 14 05:50:48 2009 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 06:50:48 -0500 Subject: NCCC - Sunfire V100 / Solaris In-Reply-To: <4967819C.6080009@ubanproductions.com> References: <1231431249.1216.35.camel@spasmo> <49664EAD.BB843518@cs.ubc.ca> <4967819C.6080009@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <1231933848.23902.0.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> According to the documentation here: http://dlc.sun.com/pdf/819-1160-13/819-1160-13.pdf the default password after twiddling the jumper is.... changeme David On Fri, 2009-01-09 at 10:55 -0600, Tom Uban wrote: > Sorry about the lack of true classic computing content to this > question, but it does relate to a little bit older machine, a > Sunfire V100... > > I purchased one of these from eBay in hopes of possibly upgrading > my home firewall and discovered that the machine has a Lights-Out- > Management (LOM) CPU controlling the main UltraSPARC IIi processor. > The LOM runs a monitor program (LOMlite) which on this particular > machine is currently configured to require a login/password when > communicating with the machine over the console serial port. > > >From seemingly endless google searching, it sounds like I should be > able to break out of the LOMlite login/password cycle by resetting > the machine with the JP13 jumper. When I do this, LOM is reset, a > few seemingly ok diagnostic messages are emitted, and then the login > password are again requested. > > I was unable to determine if there is some sort of default login > password. > > The only path seems to be to possibly load the PATA IDE hard drive > with Solaris, and then use the Solaris tools to reset the LOM setup. > > Does anyone on this list have any experience with this machine? > > --tnx > --tom From uban at ubanproductions.com Wed Jan 14 09:37:37 2009 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 09:37:37 -0600 Subject: NCCC - Sunfire V100 / Solaris In-Reply-To: <18141.62.140.137.30.1231533528.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <18141.62.140.137.30.1231533528.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <496E06C1.5030109@ubanproductions.com> Ok, through a combination of experimentation and help from all of you, I've been able to get to the "lom>" prompt. Woot! But now I seem to face a new problem. I would like to install Solaris from the CD drive, but I need to access the "forth" boot mode "ok" prompt. When I try to use the "console" command, it reports "Console is not shared". I've tried setting bootmode to forth and issuing the "poweron" command, but I am still unable to gain access to the "ok" prompt console. Some googling reveals others have had this same problem and that there is supposed to be a doc in the sunsolve database which describes something about this, but I would need a service contract to access the document. How do I access the main processor forth mode console? Continuing thanks... --tom Ed Groenenberg wrote: > Tom, > > Best way is to install Solrais 8, 9 or 10. > Then install the SUNWlomu, SUNWlomr & SUNWlomm packages > followed by patch 110208-22. Then use the lom tool to > manipulate the lom config to your likings. > BTW, the patch has the latest firmware for the lom, so you > can also upgrade it if wanted. > > Regards, > > Ed > >> Sorry about the lack of true classic computing content to this >> question, but it does relate to a little bit older machine, a >> Sunfire V100... >> >> I purchased one of these from eBay in hopes of possibly upgrading >> my home firewall and discovered that the machine has a Lights-Out- >> Management (LOM) CPU controlling the main UltraSPARC IIi processor. >> The LOM runs a monitor program (LOMlite) which on this particular >> machine is currently configured to require a login/password when >> communicating with the machine over the console serial port. >> >> >From seemingly endless google searching, it sounds like I should be >> able to break out of the LOMlite login/password cycle by resetting >> the machine with the JP13 jumper. When I do this, LOM is reset, a >> few seemingly ok diagnostic messages are emitted, and then the login >> password are again requested. >> >> I was unable to determine if there is some sort of default login >> password. >> >> The only path seems to be to possibly load the PATA IDE hard drive >> with Solaris, and then use the Solaris tools to reset the LOM setup. >> >> Does anyone on this list have any experience with this machine? >> >> --tnx >> --tom >> > > > > From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Jan 14 10:09:40 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 08:09:40 -0800 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: <496CF994.5080104@jwsss.com> References: <496CF994.5080104@jwsss.com> Message-ID: >-----Original Message----- >From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jim s >Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 12:29 PM >To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs to cease? > > > >Richard wrote: > >Quoted Ian: > > >I believe that there are two different issues here. Moderation of a >forum of which the the membership of is open to anyone is different than >the model where the writers and participants are chosen and there is an >editor / writer relationship in place. > >It requires some business model or resource to support the latter, since >there is usually going to be a dedicated group if there is to be any >quality to it, in order for the enterprise to function. > >Selling magazines used to do that. I do not believe that there is the >same resource to support these with online models. It remains to be >seen if the old publishing companies with magazines and an online >presence can survive, or if other ones will. Certainly the treatment of >the DDJ readership was not handled very well. I would think that there >would have been a cost effective model which would have allowed for all >online publishing and getting rid of the cost of the physical magazine >as a step rather than effectively erasing it the way they did. > >Having a group like this with minimum moderation and one which is >heavily edited like the comp group mentioned is not going to produce the >same results. > In discussions I've had with librarians regarding printed vs. online journals, I've been told that the costs of producing the physical artifact are a small fraction of the overall cost. The cost of that staff predominates. However, advertising is an important revenue flow. Once upon a time, I started receiving a magazine to which I had not subscribed. When I asked why, the publisher replied that they were trying to boost their circulation numbers so they could increase their advertising rates. They made more money by giving away their product! (After a while, I realized why they had to give it away and asked them to stop sending it to me, free or not.) -- Ian From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Jan 14 10:21:18 2009 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 11:21:18 -0500 Subject: XKL TOAD (was: Re: How to tell differential scsi drives and cards apart) In-Reply-To: <200901140036.04570.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <2877B33C3A8B42B2917A94952AAA92F3@game> <45CDE429-2D35-4AE4-91DB-164B89DE9EDE@neurotica.com> <200901140036.04570.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <31369.1231950078@mini> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > >So, for curiosity's sake, how much money did a Toad-1 sell for when they >were being produced? Yes, exactly my question. And, as a followup, what's the chance of some of them coming up for sale? (I'd *love* to get my hands on one) -brad From dgahling at hotmail.com Wed Jan 14 10:50:37 2009 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 11:50:37 -0500 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: References: <496CF994.5080104@jwsss.com> Message-ID: It's a fascinating discussion, especially with "everything" going this way. Just exactly how well will the age-old advertising methods work online, especially with everyone and their brother using things like ad-block? I'm not sure where it will end up, I suspect it's an indication of a deeper issue. Off-topic but perhaps related is TV, look at what's happening with that, the traditional TV is almost dead. I'm not sure, but my feeling is that the new US plans to kill analog TV may completely kill TV. Why have TV when you can stream anything you want any time you want from the internet? Where is the place for it, and advertising when you can download shows for free (or "free") or close to it? Microsoft (and others) plans of a TV set-top box for internet access continually fail, and yet, in some ways, that's exactly where we're going, the computer becomes the entertainment center. a friend of mine has dumped TV (sat/cable, etc), they setup a NAS device and stream everything from online to their systems, and their TV's have rca/coax/digital connectors. with 2 1TB drives of media, and various systems with NFS mounts for other media. There's no advertising in there at all, no revenue stream, and no on-going cost for him to operate (except electricity). surprisingly perhaps, the reduction in electricity usage is exactly why he did it, he turned off 3 systems in place of the one NAS, which uses 1/3rd power of any of those systems alone. Someone once predicted the death of "tv" in the early 21st century, it feels like we're on the cusp at least. however, my question is, isn't TV a major source of advertising income, sales, and revenues? if everything goes this way, what happens to the market then? As i said, there's a deeper issue lurking below the surface. > From: IanK at vulcan.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 08:09:40 -0800 > Subject: RE: Dr. Dobbs to cease? > > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > >bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jim s > >Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 12:29 PM > >To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs to cease? > > > > > > > >Richard wrote: > > > >Quoted Ian: > > > > > >I believe that there are two different issues here. Moderation of a > >forum of which the the membership of is open to anyone is different than > >the model where the writers and participants are chosen and there is an > >editor / writer relationship in place. > > > >It requires some business model or resource to support the latter, since > >there is usually going to be a dedicated group if there is to be any > >quality to it, in order for the enterprise to function. > > > >Selling magazines used to do that. I do not believe that there is the > >same resource to support these with online models. It remains to be > >seen if the old publishing companies with magazines and an online > >presence can survive, or if other ones will. Certainly the treatment of > >the DDJ readership was not handled very well. I would think that there > >would have been a cost effective model which would have allowed for all > >online publishing and getting rid of the cost of the physical magazine > >as a step rather than effectively erasing it the way they did. > > > >Having a group like this with minimum moderation and one which is > >heavily edited like the comp group mentioned is not going to produce the > >same results. > > > In discussions I've had with librarians regarding printed vs. online journals, I've been told that the costs of producing the physical artifact are a small fraction of the overall cost. The cost of that staff predominates. However, advertising is an important revenue flow. Once upon a time, I started receiving a magazine to which I had not subscribed. When I asked why, the publisher replied that they were trying to boost their circulation numbers so they could increase their advertising rates. They made more money by giving away their product! (After a while, I realized why they had to give it away and asked them to stop sending it to me, free or not.) -- Ian > > _________________________________________________________________ Keep in touch and up to date with friends and family. Make the connection now. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/ From andy.piercy at gmail.com Wed Jan 14 11:28:44 2009 From: andy.piercy at gmail.com (Andy Piercy) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 17:28:44 +0000 Subject: NCCC - Sunfire V100 / Solaris In-Reply-To: <496E06C1.5030109@ubanproductions.com> References: <18141.62.140.137.30.1231533528.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <496E06C1.5030109@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: "console" and "#." to returne I think... Ta, A. 2009/1/14 Tom Uban : > Ok, through a combination of experimentation and help from all of > you, I've been able to get to the "lom>" prompt. Woot! But now I > seem to face a new problem. I would like to install Solaris from > the CD drive, but I need to access the "forth" boot mode "ok" prompt. > When I try to use the "console" command, it reports "Console is > not shared". I've tried setting bootmode to forth and issuing the > "poweron" command, but I am still unable to gain access to the "ok" > prompt console. Some googling reveals others have had this same > problem and that there is supposed to be a doc in the sunsolve > database which describes something about this, but I would need > a service contract to access the document. How do I access the > main processor forth mode console? > > Continuing thanks... > > --tom > > Ed Groenenberg wrote: >> Tom, >> >> Best way is to install Solrais 8, 9 or 10. >> Then install the SUNWlomu, SUNWlomr & SUNWlomm packages >> followed by patch 110208-22. Then use the lom tool to >> manipulate the lom config to your likings. >> BTW, the patch has the latest firmware for the lom, so you >> can also upgrade it if wanted. >> >> Regards, >> >> Ed >> >>> Sorry about the lack of true classic computing content to this >>> question, but it does relate to a little bit older machine, a >>> Sunfire V100... >>> >>> I purchased one of these from eBay in hopes of possibly upgrading >>> my home firewall and discovered that the machine has a Lights-Out- >>> Management (LOM) CPU controlling the main UltraSPARC IIi processor. >>> The LOM runs a monitor program (LOMlite) which on this particular >>> machine is currently configured to require a login/password when >>> communicating with the machine over the console serial port. >>> >>> >From seemingly endless google searching, it sounds like I should be >>> able to break out of the LOMlite login/password cycle by resetting >>> the machine with the JP13 jumper. When I do this, LOM is reset, a >>> few seemingly ok diagnostic messages are emitted, and then the login >>> password are again requested. >>> >>> I was unable to determine if there is some sort of default login >>> password. >>> >>> The only path seems to be to possibly load the PATA IDE hard drive >>> with Solaris, and then use the Solaris tools to reset the LOM setup. >>> >>> Does anyone on this list have any experience with this machine? >>> >>> --tnx >>> --tom >>> >> >> >> >> > > From uban at ubanproductions.com Wed Jan 14 11:39:02 2009 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 11:39:02 -0600 Subject: NCCC - Sunfire V100 / Solaris In-Reply-To: References: <18141.62.140.137.30.1231533528.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <496E06C1.5030109@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <496E2336.8010702@ubanproductions.com> The "console" command from "lom>" yeilds "Console not shared". The "#." command is supposed to be issued from Solaris, which is not yet installed (or running). I need to access the "forth" monitor which has the "ok" prompt, but again, the "console" command does not connect. --tom Andy Piercy wrote: > "console" > > and > > "#." to returne I think... > > Ta, > > A. > > > > 2009/1/14 Tom Uban : >> Ok, through a combination of experimentation and help from all of >> you, I've been able to get to the "lom>" prompt. Woot! But now I >> seem to face a new problem. I would like to install Solaris from >> the CD drive, but I need to access the "forth" boot mode "ok" prompt. >> When I try to use the "console" command, it reports "Console is >> not shared". I've tried setting bootmode to forth and issuing the >> "poweron" command, but I am still unable to gain access to the "ok" >> prompt console. Some googling reveals others have had this same >> problem and that there is supposed to be a doc in the sunsolve >> database which describes something about this, but I would need >> a service contract to access the document. How do I access the >> main processor forth mode console? >> >> Continuing thanks... >> >> --tom >> >> Ed Groenenberg wrote: >>> Tom, >>> >>> Best way is to install Solrais 8, 9 or 10. >>> Then install the SUNWlomu, SUNWlomr & SUNWlomm packages >>> followed by patch 110208-22. Then use the lom tool to >>> manipulate the lom config to your likings. >>> BTW, the patch has the latest firmware for the lom, so you >>> can also upgrade it if wanted. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Ed >>> >>>> Sorry about the lack of true classic computing content to this >>>> question, but it does relate to a little bit older machine, a >>>> Sunfire V100... >>>> >>>> I purchased one of these from eBay in hopes of possibly upgrading >>>> my home firewall and discovered that the machine has a Lights-Out- >>>> Management (LOM) CPU controlling the main UltraSPARC IIi processor. >>>> The LOM runs a monitor program (LOMlite) which on this particular >>>> machine is currently configured to require a login/password when >>>> communicating with the machine over the console serial port. >>>> >>>> >From seemingly endless google searching, it sounds like I should be >>>> able to break out of the LOMlite login/password cycle by resetting >>>> the machine with the JP13 jumper. When I do this, LOM is reset, a >>>> few seemingly ok diagnostic messages are emitted, and then the login >>>> password are again requested. >>>> >>>> I was unable to determine if there is some sort of default login >>>> password. >>>> >>>> The only path seems to be to possibly load the PATA IDE hard drive >>>> with Solaris, and then use the Solaris tools to reset the LOM setup. >>>> >>>> Does anyone on this list have any experience with this machine? >>>> >>>> --tnx >>>> --tom >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > From andy.piercy at gmail.com Wed Jan 14 11:59:40 2009 From: andy.piercy at gmail.com (Andy Piercy) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 17:59:40 +0000 Subject: NCCC - Sunfire V100 / Solaris In-Reply-To: <496E2336.8010702@ubanproductions.com> References: <18141.62.140.137.30.1231533528.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <496E06C1.5030109@ubanproductions.com> <496E2336.8010702@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: Tom, I use to work at Sun and managed the customer testing for this server, so deep in some old emails I found this... You need to have access to the engineering commands (not generally released to customers) ;-) This will allow you to reset the LOM password. Good luck! A. LOM error message "Console is not shared" ----------------------------------------- lom>console Console is not shared lom>set extra-cmds on Extra commands are reserved for SUN service personnel. Unauthorised use invalidates machine service warranty. lom> LOM event: +0h0m12s user login 0 lom>eepromreset lom>reset -l 2009/1/14 Tom Uban : > The "console" command from "lom>" yeilds "Console not shared". > > The "#." command is supposed to be issued from Solaris, which > is not yet installed (or running). > > I need to access the "forth" monitor which has the "ok" prompt, > but again, the "console" command does not connect. > > --tom > > Andy Piercy wrote: >> "console" >> >> and >> >> "#." to returne I think... >> >> Ta, >> >> A. >> >> >> >> 2009/1/14 Tom Uban : >>> Ok, through a combination of experimentation and help from all of >>> you, I've been able to get to the "lom>" prompt. Woot! But now I >>> seem to face a new problem. I would like to install Solaris from >>> the CD drive, but I need to access the "forth" boot mode "ok" prompt. >>> When I try to use the "console" command, it reports "Console is >>> not shared". I've tried setting bootmode to forth and issuing the >>> "poweron" command, but I am still unable to gain access to the "ok" >>> prompt console. Some googling reveals others have had this same >>> problem and that there is supposed to be a doc in the sunsolve >>> database which describes something about this, but I would need >>> a service contract to access the document. How do I access the >>> main processor forth mode console? >>> >>> Continuing thanks... >>> >>> --tom >>> >>> Ed Groenenberg wrote: >>>> Tom, >>>> >>>> Best way is to install Solrais 8, 9 or 10. >>>> Then install the SUNWlomu, SUNWlomr & SUNWlomm packages >>>> followed by patch 110208-22. Then use the lom tool to >>>> manipulate the lom config to your likings. >>>> BTW, the patch has the latest firmware for the lom, so you >>>> can also upgrade it if wanted. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Ed >>>> >>>>> Sorry about the lack of true classic computing content to this >>>>> question, but it does relate to a little bit older machine, a >>>>> Sunfire V100... >>>>> >>>>> I purchased one of these from eBay in hopes of possibly upgrading >>>>> my home firewall and discovered that the machine has a Lights-Out- >>>>> Management (LOM) CPU controlling the main UltraSPARC IIi processor. >>>>> The LOM runs a monitor program (LOMlite) which on this particular >>>>> machine is currently configured to require a login/password when >>>>> communicating with the machine over the console serial port. >>>>> >>>>> >From seemingly endless google searching, it sounds like I should be >>>>> able to break out of the LOMlite login/password cycle by resetting >>>>> the machine with the JP13 jumper. When I do this, LOM is reset, a >>>>> few seemingly ok diagnostic messages are emitted, and then the login >>>>> password are again requested. >>>>> >>>>> I was unable to determine if there is some sort of default login >>>>> password. >>>>> >>>>> The only path seems to be to possibly load the PATA IDE hard drive >>>>> with Solaris, and then use the Solaris tools to reset the LOM setup. >>>>> >>>>> Does anyone on this list have any experience with this machine? >>>>> >>>>> --tnx >>>>> --tom >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 14 12:19:34 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 18:19:34 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Commodore Pet 2001 Troubles In-Reply-To: <88975c85e2225a1fa7bdd355904e2518@webmail.havnetmail.net> from "HavNet" at Jan 13, 9 11:31:09 pm Message-ID: > > Dear Fellow Enthusiasts ... > > Firstly, I must admit to being somewhat of a 'lurker' here reading > with great interest the postings and never failing to be amazed at the > shear amount of amassed knowledge on the subject. My thanks to you all. > > Is there anyone here that can help me with a Commodore Pet problem > that is really starting bug me !! IO am not really a PET person, although I have repaired the odd one in the past. But I might have some suggestions. > > It is a Pet 2001 32N with a Computhink Pet II Disk Controller Board > and a pair of Dual Computhink drives (Model : DKH 642-I). Question : Do these drives have their own PSU, or do they somehow draw DC power from the PET? I am wondering if the extra load of the drive motors turning on could e pullign a supply line low or something. > The machine starts up just fine and you can enter DISKMON by typing > SYS11*4096 > > However, upon entering commands like $LOD,1,"FOO" the screen turns to > a complete screen full of small squares - chequer board style. Upon the > command $DIR,1 the screen briefly displays a boarder around the screen > where the directory content would normally appear and as soon as the > drive activates the screen turns to chequer board. > > I have done the usual of re-seating the IC's, and I am hoping this > isn't failed ROM. It might, alas, be a failed ROM (does anyone have a dump of this?). PETs are, hopwever, notorious for failed IC sockets that cause all sorts of 'intereting' prolems. I'd replace the lot with good turned-pin ones. It might not help, but it'll take one worry away. > > Another clue maybe that for some reason, when the drives are > activated, BOTH drives activate together, which obviously they shouldnt. Do you hacw scheamtics? How are the drives selected? Could both turnign on together be a software problem (e.g. one it of an output port controls each drive, so if software writes a value to that prot that asserts oth bits then both drives turn on)? Or does this indicate a hardware problem with the drive select logic? -tony From rescue at hawkmountain.net Wed Jan 14 12:33:06 2009 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 13:33:06 -0500 Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: <31369.1231950078@mini> References: <2877B33C3A8B42B2917A94952AAA92F3@game> <45CDE429-2D35-4AE4-91DB-164B89DE9EDE@neurotica.com> <200901140036.04570.pat@computer-refuge.org> <31369.1231950078@mini> Message-ID: <496E2FE2.3010403@hawkmountain.net> Brad Parker wrote: > Patrick Finnegan wrote: > >> So, for curiosity's sake, how much money did a Toad-1 sell for when they >> were being produced? >> > > Yes, exactly my question. > > And, as a followup, what's the chance of some of them coming up for sale? > > (I'd *love* to get my hands on one) > Who wouldn't... I've wanted one since I found out about them... however, given the # that were made.... I probably have a better chance of finding a cheap Apple I at a yard sale... sigh... I think that my TOPS-10/TOPS-20 fix will likely have to come from emulation. I hold out hope for a PDP-8/I, E, F, or M someday... but I haven't found one in my realm of affordability.... if only I had gotten into old hardware sooner.... -- Curt > -brad > > From lehmann at ans-netz.de Wed Jan 14 12:41:30 2009 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 19:41:30 +0100 Subject: what harddisk is this? Message-ID: <20090114194130.467b5f9d.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Hi, I got pictures from someone regarding an 8" harddisk. I wonder if someone can tell me what model this is and/or what interface it is. I guess it is (sadly :() not SA1000 - maybe SMD? http://files.pofo.de/harddisk/ -- Oliver Lehmann http://www.pofo.de/ http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ From rescue at hawkmountain.net Wed Jan 14 13:04:50 2009 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 14:04:50 -0500 Subject: what harddisk is this? In-Reply-To: <20090114194130.467b5f9d.lehmann@ans-netz.de> References: <20090114194130.467b5f9d.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Message-ID: <496E3752.8090507@hawkmountain.net> Oliver Lehmann wrote: > Hi, > > I got pictures from someone regarding an 8" harddisk. I wonder if someone > can tell me what model this is and/or what interface it is. I guess it is > (sadly :() not SA1000 - maybe SMD? > > http://files.pofo.de/harddisk/ > > Looks like the world's biggest IDE hard drive (40 pin male IDC connector)..... ok... enough joking... here is what I found on it: I'm no DEChead but it is a Digital RA92 Would appear is is 1.216G. They appear to be fore use in Digital SA600 and SA650 cabinets interface is SDI (Standard Disk Interconnect) service manual is at: http://bitsavers.vt100.net/pdf/dec/disc/ra90/EK-ORA90-SV-003_RA90_RA92_Service_Jun90.pdf -- Curt From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 14 13:06:08 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 12:06:08 -0700 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 13 Jan 2009 12:29:08 -0800. <496CF994.5080104@jwsss.com> Message-ID: In article <496CF994.5080104 at jwsss.com>, jim s writes: > I believe that there are two different issues here. Moderation of a > forum of which the the membership of is open to anyone is different than > the model where the writers and participants are chosen and there is an > editor / writer relationship in place. > > It requires some business model or resource to support the latter, since > there is usually going to be a dedicated group if there is to be any > quality to it, in order for the enterprise to function. > > Selling magazines used to do that. I do not believe that there is the > same resource to support these with online models. Plenty of people are doing it; I don't know why you guys are unaware of the massive amount of activity in this area. If you've never seen it, you didn't look hard enough. What supports magazines is advertising. Its no different on the web. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 14 13:08:36 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 12:08:36 -0700 Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 14 Jan 2009 13:33:06 -0500. <496E2FE2.3010403@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: In article <496E2FE2.3010403 at hawkmountain.net>, "Curtis H. Wilbar Jr." writes: > I think that my TOPS-10/TOPS-20 fix will likely have to come from > emulation. Just get an account on Paul Allen's TOAD. I did. Its fun :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Jan 14 13:20:48 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 11:20:48 -0800 Subject: XKL TOAD (was: Re: How to tell differential scsi drives and cards apart) In-Reply-To: <200901140036.04570.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <2877B33C3A8B42B2917A94952AAA92F3@game> <45CDE429-2D35-4AE4-91DB-164B89DE9EDE@neurotica.com> <200901140036.04570.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: > From: Patrick Finnegan > Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 9:36 PM > So, for curiosity's sake, how much money did a Toad-1 sell for when they > were being produced? A base system cost $125,000 in 1995. That comprises 1 XKL-1 CPU (PDP-10 architecture, all KL-10 user code compatible, although the I/O instruction set differs radically) 1 XRH-1 4-port FASTWIDE differential SCSI controller (allowing attachment of up to 15 devices/port) 1 XNI-1 4-port Ethernet interface, providing AUI and 10baseT connections 1 XMG-1 32MW memory (KL-10 physical maximum is 4MW) 1 4GB disk drive (internal to system cabinet) 1 DDS-2 tape drive (HP OEM, with a Paralan single-ended to differential card) That took up 4 slots of the 7 slot backplane. At XKL, we installed a full 128MW in a system just to verify that our OS mods to support it worked correctly, and it passed all tests with flying colors. We would also sell you an M4 9914 9-track tape drive so that you could deal with legacy tapes (backups, installation media, etc.) if you wanted. Later, when we started using multiple 9GB drives in our own systems, we replaced the DAT drives with Quantum DLT8000 drives. If we had continued to sell systems that would have been the configuration you got for the base price. A note on the memory: TOPS-20, as it turns out, is memory-starved on a KL-10 with the maximum memory. When MCI/Tymnet replaced two KL-10 systems running an early fork of Tops-10 with a Toad-1 running TOPS-20, they went from 100 users per system with 1-2 *minute* response times to 200 users on a single system with *subsecond* response times. Rich Alderson Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell From rescue at hawkmountain.net Wed Jan 14 13:23:46 2009 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 14:23:46 -0500 Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <496E3BC2.1020005@hawkmountain.net> Richard wrote: > In article <496E2FE2.3010403 at hawkmountain.net>, > "Curtis H. Wilbar Jr." writes: > > >> I think that my TOPS-10/TOPS-20 fix will likely have to come from >> emulation. >> > > Just get an account on Paul Allen's TOAD. I did. Its fun :-) > I'm sure.... but not like having your own ! :-) With such a low number of them out there.... I'd imagine eventually they will be tougher to keep running.... what would the spares availability be :-) -- Curt From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jan 14 13:27:54 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 14:27:54 -0500 Subject: what harddisk is this? In-Reply-To: <496E3752.8090507@hawkmountain.net> References: <20090114194130.467b5f9d.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <496E3752.8090507@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: On Jan 14, 2009, at 2:04 PM, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: >> I got pictures from someone regarding an 8" harddisk. I wonder if >> someone >> can tell me what model this is and/or what interface it is. I >> guess it is >> (sadly :() not SA1000 - maybe SMD? >> >> http://files.pofo.de/harddisk/ >> > Looks like the world's biggest IDE hard drive (40 pin male IDC > connector)..... > > ok... enough joking... here is what I found on it: > > I'm no DEChead but it is a Digital RA92 It's just the HDA, not the whole drive. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From slawmaster at gmail.com Wed Jan 14 13:32:44 2009 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 14:32:44 -0500 Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: <496E3BC2.1020005@hawkmountain.net> References: <496E3BC2.1020005@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <7d3530220901141132u21092c4dvb0073a5ba5af4200@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 2:23 PM, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > Richard wrote: >> >> In article <496E2FE2.3010403 at hawkmountain.net>, >> "Curtis H. Wilbar Jr." writes: >> >> >>> >>> I think that my TOPS-10/TOPS-20 fix will likely have to come from >>> emulation. >>> >> >> Just get an account on Paul Allen's TOAD. I did. Its fun :-) >> > > I'm sure.... but not like having your own ! :-) > > With such a low number of them out there.... I'd imagine > eventually they will be tougher to keep running.... what > would the spares availability be :-) > > -- Curt > Sorta sounds like it would be easier to get a real PDP-10 than to find a TOAD -- "I've tried programming Ruby on Rails, following TechCrunch in my RSS reader, and drinking absinthe. It doesn't work. I'm going back to C, Hunter S. Thompson, and cheap whiskey." -- Ted Dziuba From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 14 13:37:57 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 12:37:57 -0700 Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 14 Jan 2009 14:23:46 -0500. <496E3BC2.1020005@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: In article <496E3BC2.1020005 at hawkmountain.net>, "Curtis H. Wilbar Jr." writes: > > Just get an account on Paul Allen's TOAD. I did. Its fun :-) > > > I'm sure.... but not like having your own ! :-) Yeah, its better! You don't have to pay the power bills or setup the HVAC, the raised floor, etc. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From pontus at update.uu.se Wed Jan 14 14:05:28 2009 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 21:05:28 +0100 Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <496E4588.8090003@update.uu.se> > Yeah, its better! You don't have to pay the power bills or setup the > HVAC, the raised floor, etc. > The Toad is small and cute, even cats like it, not much need for raised floor, don't know about power though. http://www.inwap.com/pdp10/tymshare/hardware/index.cgi?xkl-murdock2.jpg /P From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Jan 14 14:06:43 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 15:06:43 -0500 Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200901141506.43879.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 14 January 2009, Richard wrote: > In article <496E3BC2.1020005 at hawkmountain.net>, > > "Curtis H. Wilbar Jr." writes: > > > Just get an account on Paul Allen's TOAD. I did. Its fun :-) > > > > I'm sure.... but not like having your own ! :-) > > Yeah, its better! You don't have to pay the power bills or setup the > HVAC, the raised floor, etc. Then, what's the point? Half the fun of running big machines (for me) is the hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars you put into improvements in your living space to turn it into a datacenter, which at best only slightly lowers the resale value of your house. :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pontus at update.uu.se Wed Jan 14 14:09:45 2009 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 21:09:45 +0100 Subject: what harddisk is this? In-Reply-To: References: <20090114194130.467b5f9d.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <496E3752.8090507@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <496E4689.5040705@update.uu.se> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jan 14, 2009, at 2:04 PM, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: >>> I got pictures from someone regarding an 8" harddisk. I wonder if >>> someone >>> can tell me what model this is and/or what interface it is. I guess >>> it is >>> (sadly :() not SA1000 - maybe SMD? >>> >>> http://files.pofo.de/harddisk/ >>> >> Looks like the world's biggest IDE hard drive (40 pin male IDC >> connector)..... >> >> ok... enough joking... here is what I found on it: >> >> I'm no DEChead but it is a Digital RA92 > > It's just the HDA, not the whole drive. > > -Dave > yupp, we have a bunch of those at the club. You need the controller board (?), housing, power and fan to get it going. But they are quite cool. We removed a magnet from one of them and placed it on the I-beam in the ceiling. To say the least, it was hard to remove :) From tosteve at yahoo.com Wed Jan 14 14:12:30 2009 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 12:12:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: "Free" Zenith Z-158 and Supersport in Buffalo, NY Message-ID: <958403.91437.qm@web110613.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> THESE ARE NOT MY SYSTEMS, RESPOND TO "TOM" BELOW IF INTERESTED! =============================================================== "Tom" writes: I have 2 systems in my possession that I'd be willing to donate if you're interested. The first is a Zenith Data Systems Z-158 Desktop. It is in great working condition. The previous owner was very meticulous, keeping everything. I have the original brochure and sales receipt along with several program disks including the demo disk that would have been used in the store to show off the computer's capabilities. The second is a Zenith Data Systems Supersport. I used this machine to learn Q-Basic. Has seen a lot of use, but still in good shape. Just recently stopped booting telling me, "DISK DRIVE RESET FAILED" I have 2 identical systems that I have been using as donor machines to keep my laptop in working order. If interested I can donate them as well. Tom Jefferys Buffalo, NY comptech25 at yahoo.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jan 14 14:14:52 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 15:14:52 -0500 Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: <496E4588.8090003@update.uu.se> References: <496E4588.8090003@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 3:05 PM, Pontus wrote: > >> Yeah, its better! You don't have to pay the power bills or setup the >> HVAC, the raised floor, etc. >> > > The Toad is small and cute, even cats like it, not much need for raised > floor, don't know about power though. > > http://www.inwap.com/pdp10/tymshare/hardware/index.cgi?xkl-murdock2.jpg That is small and cute. I worked next to some Systems Concepts machines at the Hilliard, OH, data center in 2003 - my stuff was a wall of Alpha CPUs and disk, several rows away from the 36-bit hardware, but I still had to walk by it every day. I _think_ it was a small wall of SC30s, but I could be wrong. I was told that because of how CompuServe was carved up between MCI/Worldcom and AOL, MCI/Worldcom was still running billing jobs on the 36-bit machines and that more than one attempt to re-write that stuff had ended with a lack of success. No idea if they are _still_ running it or not, but a replacement was not in sight by late 2003. The Toad does look great, though. For now though, like most of the list, I'll be getting my 36-bit fix via klh10 and the graces of Paul Allen. I occasionally check in on the 10-on-an-FPGA projects from time to time, but I can't allocate a lot of money to that aspect of the hobby, so I sit on the sidelines and see how they are coming along. For what I do (Zork regression testing for ZDungeon), I don't really need to own real 36-bit hardware, just an account is enough, so that's what I'm doing. I still wouldn't mind owning real 36-bit hardware, but unless it was some sort of rescue, I don't see it happening in my future. -ethan From sethm at loomcom.com Wed Jan 14 14:14:55 2009 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 12:14:55 -0800 Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: <496E2FE2.3010403@hawkmountain.net> References: <2877B33C3A8B42B2917A94952AAA92F3@game> <45CDE429-2D35-4AE4-91DB-164B89DE9EDE@neurotica.com> <200901140036.04570.pat@computer-refuge.org> <31369.1231950078@mini> <496E2FE2.3010403@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 10:33 AM, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > > I think that my TOPS-10/TOPS-20 fix will likely have to come from > emulation. I thoroughly recommend KLH10 and the Panda Display Panel: http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Hardware/Panda.htm It's easy to assemble, and will provide hours of enjoyment for you and your family! Of course, it only emulates a DECsystem 20 running TOPS-20, so your TOPS-10 fix will have to come elsewhere. -Seth From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jan 14 14:19:04 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 15:19:04 -0500 Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: <200901141506.43879.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200901141506.43879.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 3:06 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Wednesday 14 January 2009, Richard wrote: >> In article <496E3BC2.1020005 at hawkmountain.net>, >> Yeah, its better! You don't have to pay the power bills or setup the >> HVAC, the raised floor, etc. > > Then, what's the point? > > Half the fun of running big machines (for me) is the hundreds of hours > and thousands of dollars you put into improvements in your living space > to turn it into a datacenter, which at best only slightly lowers the > resale value of your house. :) I already have the raised floor (about 400 sq ft). I just need a modern building out on my land to install the flooring in (right now, the 11/70s and 11/750s and most of the other H960s are in a 1950s quonset hut - it's cute, but the curved walls are inefficient for trying to make a datacenter in the corner of, so the flooring is stacked, waiting for a rectilinear building to go up next door). That and I don't have adequate electric service to the place without upgrading the pole. I've got 100A for the house and quonset hut *combined*. -ethan From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jan 14 14:16:00 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 12:16:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: <496E2FE2.3010403@hawkmountain.net> References: <2877B33C3A8B42B2917A94952AAA92F3@game> <45CDE429-2D35-4AE4-91DB-164B89DE9EDE@neurotica.com> <200901140036.04570.pat@computer-refuge.org> <31369.1231950078@mini> <496E2FE2.3010403@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Jan 2009, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > Brad Parker wrote: >> Yes, exactly my question. >> >> And, as a followup, what's the chance of some of them coming up for sale? >> >> (I'd *love* to get my hands on one) >> > > Who wouldn't... I've wanted one since I found out about them... > however, given the # that were made.... I probably have a better > chance of finding a cheap Apple I at a yard sale... sigh... > > I think that my TOPS-10/TOPS-20 fix will likely have to come from > emulation. There is another option besides "emulation", and that is for some dedicated hobbyist(s) to build the equivalent of an XKL-1. Both Neil Franklin and Doug Conroy have done work in this area. Neil Franklin stopped work on his project in 2003, and I don't know the status of Doug Conroy's project. http://neil.franklin.ch/Projects/PDP-10/ Realistically I recommend either getting an acount on one of the systems that are on the Internet, or else buy an Atom-based motherboard and build your own. Anything faster than about a 200Mhz PC will be fast enough, but I like the idea of modern and low-power for something like this. Put your favorite Linux install on there, and install KLH10. You'll want a motherboard that allows you to dedicate an ethernet card to KLH10. I've threatened to take a Mini-ITX board and place it inside of a VT100 for just this purpose. With the current advances in PC parts it would be very easy. I've also had a DECserver talking to TOPS-10 (at least I think it was -10) under KLH10. Zane From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Jan 14 14:20:13 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 15:20:13 -0500 Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: <31369.1231950078@mini> References: <2877B33C3A8B42B2917A94952AAA92F3@game> <45CDE429-2D35-4AE4-91DB-164B89DE9EDE@neurotica.com> <200901140036.04570.pat@computer-refuge.org> <31369.1231950078@mini> Message-ID: <496E48FD.3030701@gmail.com> Brad Parker wrote: >> So, for curiosity's sake, how much money did a Toad-1 sell for when they >> were being produced? > > Yes, exactly my question. > > And, as a followup, what's the chance of some of them coming up for sale? > > (I'd *love* to get my hands on one) You'd be bidding up against some people with *very* deep pockets. Peace... Sridhar From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Jan 14 14:21:48 2009 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 12:21:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: <200901141506.43879.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200901141506.43879.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Jan 2009, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Wednesday 14 January 2009, Richard wrote: >> In article <496E3BC2.1020005 at hawkmountain.net>, >> >> "Curtis H. Wilbar Jr." writes: >>>> Just get an account on Paul Allen's TOAD. I did. Its fun :-) >>> >>> I'm sure.... but not like having your own ! :-) >> >> Yeah, its better! You don't have to pay the power bills or setup the >> HVAC, the raised floor, etc. > > Then, what's the point? > > Half the fun of running big machines (for me) is the hundreds of hours > and thousands of dollars you put into improvements in your living space > to turn it into a datacenter, which at best only slightly lowers the > resale value of your house. :) > Well that just means that you have to sell to someone on the list. They'll understand the "value add" of a temperature controlled dinosaur cage where the garage used to be. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jan 14 14:26:32 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 15:26:32 -0500 Subject: what harddisk is this? In-Reply-To: <496E4689.5040705@update.uu.se> References: <20090114194130.467b5f9d.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <496E3752.8090507@hawkmountain.net> <496E4689.5040705@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 3:09 PM, Pontus wrote: > Dave McGuire wrote: >> On Jan 14, 2009, at 2:04 PM, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: >>>> I got pictures from someone regarding an 8" harddisk. I wonder if >>>> someone >>>> can tell me what model this is and/or what interface it is. I guess >>>> it is >>>> (sadly :() not SA1000 - maybe SMD? >>>> >>>> http://files.pofo.de/harddisk/ >> >>> I'm no DEChead but it is a Digital RA92 >> It's just the HDA, not the whole drive. > > yupp, we have a bunch of those at the club. You need the controller > board (?), housing, power and fan to get it going. > > But they are quite cool. We removed a magnet from one of them and placed > it on the I-beam in the ceiling. To say the least, it was hard to remove :) I never fiddled much with stuff that new. When I was using SDI drives every day, it was in the RA81 era. I have a couple of RA70s I want to fit into a BA213, but except for staring at a wall of them and not having to do much, I didn't interact with the RA92s at the one place where we had them. My memory is that they were pretty sturdy, but all rotating media fails eventually. Since I have more than a couple UDA50s and KDA50s and even a KDB50 (for my 8200), I'm kinda tied to SDI disks one way or another. I can find alternatives for Unibus and Qbus, but I don't know that I'd ever find an alternative for the VAXBI bus (there _were_ SCSI controllers for VAXBI, but they were $10K once upon a time, and I can't imagine they ever made a lot of them). -ethan From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jan 14 14:24:05 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 12:24:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: References: <2877B33C3A8B42B2917A94952AAA92F3@game> <45CDE429-2D35-4AE4-91DB-164B89DE9EDE@neurotica.com> <200901140036.04570.pat@computer-refuge.org> <31369.1231950078@mini> <496E2FE2.3010403@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Jan 2009, Seth Morabito wrote: > On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 10:33 AM, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. > wrote: > >> >> I think that my TOPS-10/TOPS-20 fix will likely have to come from >> emulation. > > I thoroughly recommend KLH10 and the Panda Display Panel: > > http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Hardware/Panda.htm > > It's easy to assemble, and will provide hours of enjoyment for you and > your family! Are they available again? > Of course, it only emulates a DECsystem 20 running TOPS-20, so your > TOPS-10 fix will have to come elsewhere. I don't know about the Panda Display Panel, but KLH10 emulates either a KS10 or a KL10B, and will run ITS, TOPS-10, and TOPS-20. Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jan 14 14:28:49 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 12:28:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: References: <200901141506.43879.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Jan 2009, Gene Buckle wrote: > Well that just means that you have to sell to someone on the list. They'll > understand the "value add" of a temperature controlled dinosaur cage where > the garage used to be. :) At the moment I'm interested in advice as to how to go about doing some sort of temperature control. Of course my wife says that if I put A/C in the garage, I first have to do the house. I gather one of my coworkers has a small server shed in the back yard with A/C, but no A/C in the house. :-) We are in the process of trying to buy a house, and one of our key requirements is that the garage can house the contents of my storage unit, and ideally have room for a row of computer racks, including the two racks housing the PDP-11/44 I have in my parents garage. :-) Zane From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Jan 14 15:06:51 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 16:06:51 -0500 Subject: TOAD-1 vs. Super Foonly F-1 Message-ID: <496E53EB.5010002@gmail.com> Can anyone compare their relative performance? Peace... Sridhar From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jan 14 15:13:54 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 16:13:54 -0500 Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: References: <2877B33C3A8B42B2917A94952AAA92F3@game> <45CDE429-2D35-4AE4-91DB-164B89DE9EDE@neurotica.com> <200901140036.04570.pat@computer-refuge.org> <31369.1231950078@mini> <496E2FE2.3010403@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 3:24 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > On Wed, 14 Jan 2009, Seth Morabito wrote: >> On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 10:33 AM, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. >> wrote: >> >>> >>> I think that my TOPS-10/TOPS-20 fix will likely have to come from >>> emulation. >> >> I thoroughly recommend KLH10 and the Panda Display Panel: >> >> http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Hardware/Panda.htm >> >> It's easy to assemble, and will provide hours of enjoyment for you and >> your family! Agreed. I have one. I love it. I should get some pictures of mine. I spent a bunch of time working on the blank plate, the spacers, etc., and it all fits together wonderfully (as with most STG products, I just bought bare boards). > Are they available again? They were last year. Not sure about today. I burn my own GALs and have a pile of generic components, so I don't usually shop for "full kits". >> Of course, it only emulates a DECsystem 20 running TOPS-20, so your >> TOPS-10 fix will have to come elsewhere. > > I don't know about the Panda Display Panel, but KLH10 emulates either a KS10 > or a KL10B, and will run ITS, TOPS-10, and TOPS-20. The display panel works with KLH10, but there is a necessary 36-bit software component to fiddle all the lights. I know it exists for TOPS-20. I have no knowledge of it for other 36-bit OSes. -ethan From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Jan 14 15:38:25 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 13:38:25 -0800 Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: <7d3530220901141132u21092c4dvb0073a5ba5af4200@mail.gmail.com> References: <496E3BC2.1020005@hawkmountain.net> <7d3530220901141132u21092c4dvb0073a5ba5af4200@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > From: John Floren > Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 11:33 AM > On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 2:23 PM, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. > wrote: >> Richard wrote: >>> In article <496E2FE2.3010403 at hawkmountain.net>, >>> "Curtis H. Wilbar Jr." writes: >>>> I think that my TOPS-10/TOPS-20 fix will likely have to come from >>>> emulation. >>> Just get an account on Paul Allen's TOAD. I did. Its fun :-) >> I'm sure.... but not like having your own ! :-) >> With such a low number of them out there.... I'd imagine >> eventually they will be tougher to keep running.... what >> would the spares availability be :-) This is actually of some concern to us. > Sorta sounds like it would be easier to get a real PDP-10 than to find > a TOAD Unless by "real PDP-10" you mean specifically a KA-10 or KI-10 processor and associated peripherals, I'm going to have to object on behalf of the XKL and Systems Concepts products, along with the Foonly family and the MAXC system built at PARC. I am firmly on the microcode side of the "real hardware" vs. microcode argument when it comes to defining system architectures. Otherwise, the KL-10 processor is not a PDP-10. I am also on the architecture trumps manufacturer side of *that* argument. The Amdahl, Hitachi, and Fujitsu articles are just as much 360/370 systems as the IBM offerings; they'd be just as desirable for the work they can do (if not more so). Nameplate coolness factor does not equate to architecture, IMAO. Anyway, as far as I have been able to determine, all the KA-10 systems left in the world are located near Johnny Eriksson, as are all the KI-10 systems. > From: Pontus > Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 12:05 PM >> Yeah, its better! You don't have to pay the power bills or setup the >> HVAC, the raised floor, etc. > The Toad is small and cute, even cats like it, not much need for raised > floor, don't know about power though. Oh. I didn't mention that, did I? The Toad-1 system dissipates about 1500W in operation and plugs into a wall socket. The KL-10, with the original power harness, requires 240V x 60A 3-phase, with a power-on inrush of ~12.4KVA, and a steady-state operational requirement of ~6-9KVA. Rich Alderson Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Jan 14 15:46:52 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 13:46:52 -0800 Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: References: <496E4588.8090003@update.uu.se> Message-ID: > From: Ethan Dicks > Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 12:15 PM > On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 3:05 PM, Pontus > wrote: >> The Toad is small and cute, even cats like it, not much need for raised >> floor, don't know about power though. > That is small and cute. I worked next to some Systems Concepts > machines at the Hilliard, OH, data center in 2003 - my stuff was a > wall of Alpha CPUs and disk, several rows away from the 36-bit > hardware, but I still had to walk by it every day. I _think_ it was a > small wall of SC30s, but I could be wrong. I was told that because of > how CompuServe was carved up between MCI/Worldcom and AOL, > MCI/Worldcom was still running billing jobs on the 36-bit machines and > that more than one attempt to re-write that stuff had ended with a > lack of success. No idea if they are _still_ running it or not, but a > replacement was not in sight by late 2003. Those were SC40s. Mike and Stewart licensed CompuServe to build their own for a discounted fee (IIRC 40% of list). Around 2001 we got a call from someone in one of those offices, but by then we were completely out of the business of selling Toad-1 systems. Too bad, because the CEO of CIS blew off a meeting (with people waiting in his outer office) the day of the NT announcement. > The Toad does look great, though. For now though, like most of the > list, I'll be getting my 36-bit fix via klh10 and the graces of Paul > Allen. > I occasionally check in on the 10-on-an-FPGA projects from time to > time, but I can't allocate a lot of money to that aspect of the hobby, > so I sit on the sidelines and see how they are coming along. > For what I do (Zork regression testing for ZDungeon), I don't really > need to own real 36-bit hardware, just an account is enough, so that's > what I'm doing. I still wouldn't mind owning real 36-bit hardware, > but unless it was some sort of rescue, I don't see it happening in my > future. Happy to help! Rich Alderson Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Wed Jan 14 16:06:47 2009 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 22:06:47 GMT Subject: thinking of selling my PDP-11/23+ Message-ID: <20090114170647.o03wbwh175wck4oo@webmail2.centurytel.net> Now that I have a working PDP-11/23+ system, I find (as I should have known from many similar projects) that the "fun" was really in accumulating the pieces and getting it working. I don't really have anything I want to DO with it (although I suppose that is the whole point of classic computing :) but I have run ADVENT. anyway I was wondering if someone else would be interested. In brief, it's an 11/23+ KDF-11BA CPU (the chassis front panel is embossed "11/03" though) with max 4 Mb RAM, two RL02's, VT220 and a 16-line serial card. Has a pack with RT-11 v5.mumble up and running. I have what appears to be a TSX-Plus pack but don't know how to generate a working system. "Corporate cabinet" in decent shape. Paint on the RL02 fronts has seen better days. Can send pics this weekend. It's in West Plains, MO (65775), about 200 mi southwest of St. Louis, 100 miles southeast of Springfield, MO. If I could find someone to help me get it down the stairs I could deliver it to St. Louis (or I could disassemble it if necessary and carry the pieces down) since I work there every week. Let me know if there's any interest - contact me offlist and make me a reasonable offer. I hate to see it just gathering dust and my PDP-8/A system (two RL02's and ASR33 Teletype, running OS/8) is enough vintage computing hardware for now :) -Charles From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jan 14 16:12:05 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 17:12:05 -0500 Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: References: <496E4588.8090003@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 4:46 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: >> From: Ethan Dicks >> That is small and cute. I worked next to some Systems Concepts >> ... in 2003... I _think_ it was a >> small wall of SC30s, but I could be wrong. I was told that because of >> how CompuServe was carved up between MCI/Worldcom and AOL, >> MCI/Worldcom was still running billing jobs on the 36-bit machines... > > Those were SC40s. Mike and Stewart licensed CompuServe to build their > own for a discounted fee (IIRC 40% of list). Ah, yes. I kinda missed that era. I was a contractor at CompuServe in 1994/1995, then worked other places until I was a CompuServe/AOL employee in 2001, quite a time after the heyday of the SC machines _and_ the "silver bullet" 32-bit servers. As of a couple of years ago, the SC40s at the old CIS headquarters were still up and running, but they've laid off so many from that facility that I don't get news like I used to. > Around 2001 we got a call from someone in one of those offices, but by > then we were completely out of the business of selling Toad-1 systems. > Too bad, because the CEO of CIS blew off a meeting (with people waiting > in his outer office) the day of the NT announcement. That was right about the time I was coming back, I think. >> For what I do (Zork regression testing for ZDungeon), I don't really >> need to own real 36-bit hardware, just an account is enough, so that's >> what I'm doing. > > Happy to help! Yes. Thanks for the assistance over the years! -ethan From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Wed Jan 14 16:16:12 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 17:16:12 -0500 Subject: XKL TOAD (was: Re: How to tell differential scsi drives and cards apart) References: <2877B33C3A8B42B2917A94952AAA92F3@game> <45CDE429-2D35-4AE4-91DB-164B89DE9EDE@neurotica.com> <200901140036.04570.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <18798.25644.861779.517348@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Rich" == Rich Alderson writes: Rich> A note on the memory: TOPS-20, as it turns out, is Rich> memory-starved on a KL-10 with the maximum memory. When Rich> MCI/Tymnet replaced two KL-10 systems running an early fork of Rich> Tops-10 with a Toad-1 running TOPS-20, they went from 100 users Rich> per system with 1-2 *minute* response times to 200 users on a Rich> single system with *subsecond* response times. Interesting, considering that PLATO ran on roughly the same memory but a slower processor, and supported 600 users with subsecond response time in 1975. I suppose it goes to show you that software can make any machine slow. But then again we all know that by now... :-) paul From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Jan 14 16:56:55 2009 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 16:56:55 -0600 Subject: Content rights (was: Re: Dr. Dobbs to cease?) In-Reply-To: References: <496CF994.5080104@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <496E6DB7.5040405@oldskool.org> Dan Gahlinger wrote: > Why have TV when you can stream anything you want any time you want from the internet? > Where is the place for it, and advertising when you can download shows for free (or "free") or close to it? (I know this is off-topic, but as a video content producer who has researched online distribution I'm in a unique position to comment on this, so hopefully it will be tolerated...) Because you can't currently stream *everything* for free. Less than 3% of all major networks' shows are available online from the networks (ie. legally). TV won't die any time soon, but is changing into a quasi-music-industry model. Meaning, pop music artists today hardly make any money off of their CD/online store sales; instead, they make their living from live shows. From the standpoint of the artist, all of the radio play and CD sales are "advertising" to go see the live shows. (This is not the standpoint of the publishers, which I will tastefully not comment on in this message.) So how is TV like that? In the case of television, shows like Heroes, 30 Rock, and CSI are available online from 1-7 days after the broadcast. When you go to watch them online, you are treated to advertising -- but unlike broadcast television, there is no way to skip the advertising as the DRM'd player won't let you. (No doubt hackers will find a way around this, but for now, that's the case.) A single advertisement that you cannot skip is worth a dozen that you *expect* the user to skip. In these shows' cases, the broadcast brings in advertising dollars, but *more* serve to drive the user online, where distribution can be audited (think Neilsen ratings with a much larger sample size), promotion for other company offerings (like DVD sets) can be made without cutting into broadcast time, etc. There is a very large market for DVD sets of shows, and as long as the set contains extra materials (commentary is usually a requirement), the set can sell to a customer even if they have watched all of the shows online. There is a tipping point, but we won't get there until high-speed broadband becomes a utility in every home (ie. 6mbps or greater, enough to support picture quality identical or better to broadcast TV). BTW, do an inventory of all of the shows being offered online and you will find that, almost universally, they are shows that are followed by the technologically savvy. Putting nerd-centric shows like 30 Rock and Heroes online makes sense because that is more of where those shows' viewers are anyway ("I spend more time on the computer than on the couch"). Conversely, putting shows online like talk shows or reruns don't make sense since the viewership of those shows is primarily non-technical or lower-income and wouldn't have broadband. (One of the few exceptions to this are soap operas, because each show of a soap broadcast only once and is not repeated/re-run. Putting them online allows people who missed them a second chance to catch up on the story, which gives the broadcasting company a second chance to earn advertising revenue.) > a friend of mine has dumped TV (sat/cable, etc), they setup a NAS device and stream everything from online to their systems, > and their TV's have rca/coax/digital connectors. with 2 1TB drives of media, and various systems with NFS mounts for other media. > > There's no advertising in there at all, no revenue stream, and no on-going cost for him to operate (except electricity). > surprisingly perhaps, the reduction in electricity usage is exactly why he did it, he turned off 3 systems in place of the one NAS, which uses 1/3rd > power of any of those systems alone. No doubt, then, that your friend is doing this quite illegally. I would like to know what internet/cable/whatever service he is using that not only *provides* but *allows* every show on every network over TCP/IP. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jan 14 17:08:56 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 16:08:56 -0700 Subject: Content rights In-Reply-To: <496E6DB7.5040405@oldskool.org> References: <496CF994.5080104@jwsss.com> <496E6DB7.5040405@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <496E7088.2040202@jetnet.ab.ca> Jim Leonard wrote: > No doubt, then, that your friend is doing this quite illegally. I would > like to know what internet/cable/whatever service he is using that not > only *provides* but *allows* every show on every network over TCP/IP. Other Anime and and few hockey games, I have no desire for more video productions. I like music not music videos. When the word 'plot' & 'climax' & 'conflict' come back to US TV, I might watch something. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jan 14 17:18:55 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 15:18:55 -0800 Subject: TOAD-1 vs. Super Foonly F-1 Message-ID: <496E72DF.5050207@bitsavers.org> Foonly performance can be found here: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/foonly/Foonly_Product_Overview.pdf Rich should be able to provide the numbers relative to a KL for comparision. The big deal with the TOAD was expansion of the memory addressing space. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jan 14 17:25:03 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 15:25:03 -0800 Subject: XKL TOAD Message-ID: <496E744F.7040706@bitsavers.org> > Both Neil Franklin and > Doug Conroy have done work in this area. Dave Conroy. He's not had time to work on it for a while now. From brain at jbrain.com Wed Jan 14 19:07:09 2009 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 19:07:09 -0600 Subject: Content rights In-Reply-To: <496E6DB7.5040405@oldskool.org> References: <496CF994.5080104@jwsss.com> <496E6DB7.5040405@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <496E8C3D.3000604@jbrain.com> Jim Leonard wrote: > There is a very large market for DVD sets of shows, and as long as the > set contains extra materials (commentary is usually a requirement), > the set can sell to a customer even if they have watched all of the > shows online. To use your music analogy, I buy DVDs for the same reason I buy CDs. I'm leery of online music and online shows due to the restictions imposed on listening/viewing. > > > No doubt, then, that your friend is doing this quite illegally. I > would like to know what internet/cable/whatever service he is using > that not only *provides* but *allows* every show on every network over > TCP/IP. I'm not sure I follow this. If this guy uses MythTV to save all the shows to NAS for time-shifted viewing, how is that "illegal"? Jim From dgahling at hotmail.com Wed Jan 14 19:30:31 2009 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 20:30:31 -0500 Subject: Content rights In-Reply-To: <496E8C3D.3000604@jbrain.com> References: <496CF994.5080104@jwsss.com> <496E6DB7.5040405@oldskool.org> <496E8C3D.3000604@jbrain.com> Message-ID: and if he just streams stuff you can get for free (daily show, comedy network), there are lots of sites, and shows you can get, and various other things. He even gets a lot of youtube stuff, which was free last I checked. it depends on your interests, you can get it. You can also put your own DVD library on your system for viewing, you bought the DVDs, you can watch them anyway you want. it doesn't have to be illegal, in fact, such thinking is a bit archaic by modern standards. but one aspect I do hate is, why isn't internet radio free? that's just dumb. > Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 19:07:09 -0600 > From: brain at jbrain.com > To: > CC: General at mail.mobygames.com > Subject: Re: Content rights > > Jim Leonard wrote: > > There is a very large market for DVD sets of shows, and as long as the > > set contains extra materials (commentary is usually a requirement), > > the set can sell to a customer even if they have watched all of the > > shows online. > To use your music analogy, I buy DVDs for the same reason I buy CDs. > I'm leery of online music and online shows due to the restictions > imposed on listening/viewing. > > > > > > No doubt, then, that your friend is doing this quite illegally. I > > would like to know what internet/cable/whatever service he is using > > that not only *provides* but *allows* every show on every network over > > TCP/IP. > I'm not sure I follow this. If this guy uses MythTV to save all the > shows to NAS for time-shifted viewing, how is that "illegal"? > > Jim > _________________________________________________________________ Show them the way! Add maps and directions to your party invites. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/events.aspx From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Jan 14 17:46:36 2009 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 15:46:36 -0800 Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: <496E744F.7040706@bitsavers.org> References: <496E744F.7040706@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <6772A0AD-FF0D-4D04-B040-78AA884E978D@shiresoft.com> Actually, he's gotten pretty far on it. I just talked to him today about it. I'd have to go back and look at my e-mail archives but late Nov/Dec he had it passing all of the DEC CPU diagnostics on a verilog simulator. Today he told me how many FFs & LUTs it took (not as much as he thought) to implement a KA10 style CPU (so he's doing synthesis). TTFN - Guy On Jan 14, 2009, at 3:25 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > Both Neil Franklin and > > Doug Conroy have done work in this area. > > Dave Conroy. > > He's not had time to work on it for a while now. > > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Jan 15 00:08:21 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 22:08:21 -0800 Subject: "Tyrotek" analog computer References: <49699ECB.E8A9D0D2@cs.ubc.ca> <496AFA01.7F8AA221@cs.ubc.ca> <496C30F1.75C99D3@cs.ubc.ca> <496CBBBD.7010308@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <496ED2D5.A81CA1B9@cs.ubc.ca> Scanning wrote: > > I have a PDF of the schematic for the Heathkit EC-1 and / or there is a guy > on Ebay selling the Operations manual for $8.00 and free shipping ; > Item number - 120362320437 Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > > Brent Hilpert wrote: > > .. have to see if one can still get the manual for the EC-1, re discussion of a > > couple of weeks ago about access to Heath manuals being removed from the web. > > I put up my copy here: > > http://www.dvq.com/docs/oldhkits/EC1-OP.pdf Thanks, I've downloaded a copy. From pontus at update.uu.se Thu Jan 15 01:39:56 2009 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 08:39:56 +0100 Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: References: <496E3BC2.1020005@hawkmountain.net> <7d3530220901141132u21092c4dvb0073a5ba5af4200@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <496EE84C.2040605@update.uu.se> > Anyway, as far as I have been able to determine, all the KA-10 systems > left in the world are located near Johnny Eriksson, as are all the KI-10 > systems. > > I suppose you mean Johnny Billquist, or is there another big collector I don't know about :) > > Oh. I didn't mention that, did I? The Toad-1 system dissipates about > 1500W in operation and plugs into a wall socket. The KL-10, with the > original power harness, requires 240V x 60A 3-phase, with a power-on > inrush of ~12.4KVA, and a steady-state operational requirement of ~6-9KVA. > > I Wish we could get our DECsystem-20 running again, I think we could get the power, but space and cooling is more of a concern. Regards, Pontus From bqt at softjar.se Wed Jan 14 03:45:05 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 10:45:05 +0100 Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: <200901140754.n0E7rSvr062397@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901140754.n0E7rSvr062397@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <496DB421.7060507@softjar.se> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jan 13, 2009, at 3:39 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: >>> >> And one is in the possession of my acquaintance Peter Lothberg, >>> >> unless that's who you're talking about in the last paragraph. (he >>> >> has done a lot of work for Cisco) >> > >> > Mm-hmm. >> > >> > He was one of cisco's first customers in Europe. His friend, the >> > owner of XKL, co-founded cisco Systems. Notice that I didn't use >> > *anyone's* name who has not made ownership of a Toad-1 public >> > knowledge. > > As far as I'm aware, it is public knowledge. At least he never > treated it as much of a secret. A shortie on Peter. You can see parts of his PDP-10 collection here: http://www.stupi.se/Bilder/pdp-10/index.html Stupi is Peter's company where he do some fun stuff. I don't think his Toad is on right now, but he have an SC30 that is. > ncp tell sol sho exec Node summary as of 14-JAN-09 10:41:34 Executor node = 59.10 (SOL) Identification = Systems Concepts SF CA USA - SC30M - DN-20 4.0 State = On, Active links = 0 > ncp tell toad1 sho exec NCP -- Show failed, Listener connect failed, node unreachable And I'm not aware that it's a kept secret either. But then again, Peter is not exactly the guy who walks around boasting about it either. Johnny From jrr at flippers.com Wed Jan 14 13:45:58 2009 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 11:45:58 -0800 Subject: FT: Home needed for a couple of SCSI hard drives - full height, Maxtor 760MB Message-ID: <496E40F6.3090709@flippers.com> I have a few (2 or 3) of these sitting in storage that were working when retired ten years ago. Maxtor model XT-8760S dated around 1988. I am looking for a couple of single or double speed SCSI tray-load CD-Rom drives - trade? John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From rubendan at coqui.net Wed Jan 14 17:40:26 2009 From: rubendan at coqui.net (Ruben Rivera) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 18:40:26 -0500 Subject: ibm sys/36 5360 basic needed Message-ID: <400C00E0C9BE4F41AACD0337689DE700@RubenPC> Hello My name is Ruben Rivera Do you have the repair Manual and diskettes for IBM 5363 I have some sys 36 and software too you can call me at 787-598-1055 or rubendan at coqui.net From tad at rave.com Wed Jan 14 17:10:26 2009 From: tad at rave.com (Tad Bilby) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 18:10:26 -0500 Subject: NCCC - Sunfire V100 / Solaris References: <18141.62.140.137.30.1231533528.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <496E06C1.5030109@ubanproductions.com> <496E2336.8010702@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <55A896C8ADF30847A3C9BA5785DC92850137EAA6@rave-exchange.rave.com> Try "console -f" from the sc> prompt. - Tad * -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tom Uban Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 12:39 PM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: NCCC - Sunfire V100 / Solaris The "console" command from "lom>" yeilds "Console not shared". The "#." command is supposed to be issued from Solaris, which is not yet installed (or running). I need to access the "forth" monitor which has the "ok" prompt, but again, the "console" command does not connect. --tom Andy Piercy wrote: > "console" > > and > > "#." to returne I think... > > Ta, > > A. > > > > 2009/1/14 Tom Uban : >> Ok, through a combination of experimentation and help from all of >> you, I've been able to get to the "lom>" prompt. Woot! But now I >> seem to face a new problem. I would like to install Solaris from >> the CD drive, but I need to access the "forth" boot mode "ok" prompt. >> When I try to use the "console" command, it reports "Console is >> not shared". I've tried setting bootmode to forth and issuing the >> "poweron" command, but I am still unable to gain access to the "ok" >> prompt console. Some googling reveals others have had this same >> problem and that there is supposed to be a doc in the sunsolve >> database which describes something about this, but I would need >> a service contract to access the document. How do I access the >> main processor forth mode console? >> >> Continuing thanks... >> >> --tom >> >> Ed Groenenberg wrote: >>> Tom, >>> >>> Best way is to install Solrais 8, 9 or 10. >>> Then install the SUNWlomu, SUNWlomr & SUNWlomm packages >>> followed by patch 110208-22. Then use the lom tool to >>> manipulate the lom config to your likings. >>> BTW, the patch has the latest firmware for the lom, so you >>> can also upgrade it if wanted. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Ed >>> >>>> Sorry about the lack of true classic computing content to this >>>> question, but it does relate to a little bit older machine, a >>>> Sunfire V100... >>>> >>>> I purchased one of these from eBay in hopes of possibly upgrading >>>> my home firewall and discovered that the machine has a Lights-Out- >>>> Management (LOM) CPU controlling the main UltraSPARC IIi processor. >>>> The LOM runs a monitor program (LOMlite) which on this particular >>>> machine is currently configured to require a login/password when >>>> communicating with the machine over the console serial port. >>>> >>>> >From seemingly endless google searching, it sounds like I should be >>>> able to break out of the LOMlite login/password cycle by resetting >>>> the machine with the JP13 jumper. When I do this, LOM is reset, a >>>> few seemingly ok diagnostic messages are emitted, and then the login >>>> password are again requested. >>>> >>>> I was unable to determine if there is some sort of default login >>>> password. >>>> >>>> The only path seems to be to possibly load the PATA IDE hard drive >>>> with Solaris, and then use the Solaris tools to reset the LOM setup. >>>> >>>> Does anyone on this list have any experience with this machine? >>>> >>>> --tnx >>>> --tom >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Jan 15 07:25:25 2009 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 07:25:25 -0600 Subject: Content rights In-Reply-To: <496E8C3D.3000604@jbrain.com> References: <496CF994.5080104@jwsss.com> <496E6DB7.5040405@oldskool.org> <496E8C3D.3000604@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <496F3945.3000401@oldskool.org> Jim Brain wrote: >> No doubt, then, that your friend is doing this quite illegally. I >> would like to know what internet/cable/whatever service he is using >> that not only *provides* but *allows* every show on every network over >> TCP/IP. > I'm not sure I follow this. If this guy uses MythTV to save all the > shows to NAS for time-shifted viewing, how is that "illegal"? It's not, but that's not what you implied. You implied that he has some special setup with any show on-demand. What he has in reality is regular broadcast television, merely timeshifted. He still gets shows as they are broadcast. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Thu Jan 15 08:18:37 2009 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 09:18:37 -0500 Subject: Content rights In-Reply-To: <496E8C3D.3000604@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <200901151418.n0FEIeKm063744@keith.ezwind.net> On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 19:07:09 -0600, Jim Brain wrote: >I'm not sure I follow this. If this guy uses MythTV to save all the >shows to NAS for time-shifted viewing, how is that "illegal"? Using MythTV or a PVR to time shift is not a problem, but the origional comment was "setup a NAS device and stream everything from online to their systems" and streaming online is a crime, as is distribution to others. "from online to their systems" indicates someone is distributing them to him. Had it been worded "from on air or live to their system" I would not have commented. The other Bob From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Jan 15 08:31:16 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 08:31:16 -0600 Subject: Content rights In-Reply-To: <496E6DB7.5040405@oldskool.org> References: <496CF994.5080104@jwsss.com> <496E6DB7.5040405@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <496F48B4.9080406@gmail.com> Jim Leonard wrote: > TV won't die any time soon, but is changing into a quasi-music-industry > model. Maybe one day the whole 'net will be DRMed up to the eyeballs and only viewable with officially-sanctioned proprietary tools released by the consortium who control it. That'll be fun... ;-) From dgahling at hotmail.com Thu Jan 15 09:45:38 2009 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 10:45:38 -0500 Subject: Content rights In-Reply-To: <496F3945.3000401@oldskool.org> References: <496CF994.5080104@jwsss.com> <496E6DB7.5040405@oldskool.org> <496E8C3D.3000604@jbrain.com> <496F3945.3000401@oldskool.org> Message-ID: That's not what I said or implied at all. by "any show" it doesn't mean any show broadcast available. it means "any show" he HAS or is publicly available. it is you that assumed it must be something illegal, which is a fallacy of old way of thinking. > Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 07:25:25 -0600 > From: trixter at oldskool.org > To: General at mail.mobygames.com > CC: > Subject: Re: Content rights > > Jim Brain wrote: > >> No doubt, then, that your friend is doing this quite illegally. I > >> would like to know what internet/cable/whatever service he is using > >> that not only *provides* but *allows* every show on every network over > >> TCP/IP. > > I'm not sure I follow this. If this guy uses MythTV to save all the > > shows to NAS for time-shifted viewing, how is that "illegal"? > > It's not, but that's not what you implied. You implied that he has some > special setup with any show on-demand. What he has in reality is > regular broadcast television, merely timeshifted. He still gets shows > as they are broadcast. > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ > Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ > A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ _________________________________________________________________ From dgahling at hotmail.com Thu Jan 15 09:48:39 2009 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 10:48:39 -0500 Subject: Content rights In-Reply-To: <200901151418.n0FEIeKm063744@keith.ezwind.net> References: <496E8C3D.3000604@jbrain.com> <200901151418.n0FEIeKm063744@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: No it's not! you can stream any of your own content, or creative commons, or public content, or free content online all you want. There is absolutely NOTHING illegal about any of that! If you want to stream your collection of home movies, or even other public things, or say you have a band and stream your own music or videos, that's totally legit, and your right. and, you can also stream (download) from online sites, of any publicly broadcast material, free, or other content. The original replier to my message "assumed" there was illegal activity and wrote meaning and extra words into my posting that were not there. it's only the dinosaurs that think you can't enjoy media without doing something questionable. > From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 09:18:37 -0500 > Subject: Re: Content rights > > On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 19:07:09 -0600, Jim Brain wrote: > > >I'm not sure I follow this. If this guy uses MythTV to save all the > >shows to NAS for time-shifted viewing, how is that "illegal"? > > Using MythTV or a PVR to time shift is not a problem, but the origional > comment was "setup a NAS device and stream everything from online to their systems" > and streaming online is a crime, as is distribution to others. > "from online to their systems" indicates someone is distributing them to him. > Had it been worded "from on air or live to their system" I would not have commented. > > The other Bob > > > _________________________________________________________________ From dgahling at hotmail.com Thu Jan 15 09:50:38 2009 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 10:50:38 -0500 Subject: Content rights In-Reply-To: <496F48B4.9080406@gmail.com> References: <496CF994.5080104@jwsss.com> <496E6DB7.5040405@oldskool.org> <496F48B4.9080406@gmail.com> Message-ID: I personally would be glad to see "traditional" tv die, with such nonsense going on. And if they do DRM it to hell, what will happen will just be what happened with BBSes, they'll drive people to social, personal sites. the commercial content will die because people wont put up with it, or they'll find a way around it, if they can't, it'll drive people away. then the system they setup will die. it's happened before, it'll happen again. > Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 08:31:16 -0600 > From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com > To: > Subject: Re: Content rights > > Jim Leonard wrote: > > TV won't die any time soon, but is changing into a quasi-music-industry > > model. > > Maybe one day the whole 'net will be DRMed up to the eyeballs and only > viewable with officially-sanctioned proprietary tools released by the > consortium who control it. That'll be fun... > > ;-) > _________________________________________________________________ From brain at jbrain.com Thu Jan 15 09:51:26 2009 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 09:51:26 -0600 Subject: Content rights In-Reply-To: <200901151418.n0FEIeKm063744@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200901151418.n0FEIeKm063744@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <496F5B7E.8010901@jbrain.com> Bob Bradlee wrote: > > Using MythTV or a PVR to time shift is not a problem, but the origional > comment was "setup a NAS device and stream everything from online to their systems" > and streaming online is a crime, as is distribution to others. > "from online to their systems" indicates someone is distributing them to him. > Had it been worded "from on air or live to their system" I would not have commented. > Sorry, I misunderstood the OP information. Still, I'd like to understand this better, maybe off-list. I would think streaming content to a NAS and then later streaming that same content through a home network to a PC or TV in the house would be allowed. Jim From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Thu Jan 15 10:24:46 2009 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 11:24:46 -0500 Subject: Content rights In-Reply-To: <496F5B7E.8010901@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <200901151624.n0FGOp2Y077212@keith.ezwind.net> On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 09:51:26 -0600, Jim Brain wrote: >Bob Bradlee wrote: >> >> Using MythTV or a PVR to time shift is not a problem, but the origional >> comment was "setup a NAS device and stream everything from online to their systems" >> and streaming online is a crime, as is distribution to others. >> "from online to their systems" indicates someone is distributing them to him. >> Had it been worded "from on air or live to their system" I would not have commented. >> >Sorry, I misunderstood the OP information. Still, I'd like to >understand this better, maybe off-list. I would think streaming content >to a NAS and then later streaming that same content through a home >network to a PC or TV in the house would be allowed. >Jim I use a Directv HDDVR with a built in Intell Viiv to access content on my tv, and a second HDDVR to drive a Haua Platinum HD box to "stream" to my computers. http://www.myhava.com/products.html Others I know use SlingBoxes. None of which are on topic here. Feel free to reply off list. The Other Bob From dgahling at hotmail.com Thu Jan 15 10:25:55 2009 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 11:25:55 -0500 Subject: Content rights In-Reply-To: <496F5B7E.8010901@jbrain.com> References: <200901151418.n0FEIeKm063744@keith.ezwind.net> <496F5B7E.8010901@jbrain.com> Message-ID: There's also a massive amount of TV shows available FTA (Free To Air), a lot of people may not be interested in the content, but there is a fair bit of it that is really interesting. There's even HDTV FTA, in our area there are something like 23 channels being broadcast this way, you use what looks like an old grid/CB antenna. Going to other countries content (satellite) FTA may be questionable in some cases, but even there, there is a lot of good free (public) content. If you buy a ton of DVDs, and store them on your media server, and watch them in your own home, I think that would be acceptable as well. I still say conventional TV is dead. internet media, streaming is the future. > Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 09:51:26 -0600 > From: brain at jbrain.com > To: > Subject: Re: Content rights > > Bob Bradlee wrote: > > > > Using MythTV or a PVR to time shift is not a problem, but the origional > > comment was "setup a NAS device and stream everything from online to their systems" > > and streaming online is a crime, as is distribution to others. > > "from online to their systems" indicates someone is distributing them to him. > > Had it been worded "from on air or live to their system" I would not have commented. > > > Sorry, I misunderstood the OP information. Still, I'd like to > understand this better, maybe off-list. I would think streaming content > to a NAS and then later streaming that same content through a home > network to a PC or TV in the house would be allowed. > > Jim _________________________________________________________________ Drag n? drop?Get easy photo sharing with Windows Live? Photos. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/photos.aspx From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Jan 15 10:34:28 2009 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 10:34:28 -0600 Subject: Content rights In-Reply-To: References: <200901151418.n0FEIeKm063744@keith.ezwind.net> <496F5B7E.8010901@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20090115103406.04133eb0@mail.threedee.com> This thread is not related to classic computers, right? - John From dgahling at hotmail.com Thu Jan 15 10:48:04 2009 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 11:48:04 -0500 Subject: Old Software rights (was content rights) In-Reply-To: <200901151624.n0FGOp2Y077212@keith.ezwind.net> References: <496F5B7E.8010901@jbrain.com> <200901151624.n0FGOp2Y077212@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: In an unrelated topic, I have a bunch of old programs from my University days, back in the late 70's, early 80's all Vax/VMS code, in various languages, etc. In those days we never put "(C)" or copyright notices on code. I'm just wondering if it's generally "ok" to release this code to the public? It's been 30 some years (longer than copyright would apply anyhow). I have searched for 20 years for some of the authors and never found anyone. 14 years ago I posted pieces of it, and said "if anyone objects to this, please contact me" and never got any response from anyone. The system and associated parts used for the development are long gone. But another age old question, who has rights to code developed on the universities equipment? I know it's a common question these days, but "back in the day" such considerations never occurred, it was a different era. Everyone from that era has also vanished with the wind, I know, I've looked. So is it fairly safely abandoned? Another way to look at it - If it was your code, some small silly thing you wrote, would you care? Dan. _________________________________________________________________ From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Thu Jan 15 10:48:32 2009 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 11:48:32 -0500 Subject: Content rights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200901151648.n0FGmZ4l080274@keith.ezwind.net> The question of streaming or distributing ones own or licences content is not a question here. Nor is the greay areas surrounding our hobby is under discussion. Please understand, some of us on this list are very sensitive about licensing, ask anyone in the Broadcast industry, they will tell you there is no such thing as Free Broadcasting someone is always paying the cost. Content producers and broadcasters truely dont care about personal use or "low power" attempts at shareing content, but you do not want to tangle with their lawyers over distribution rights and be wrong! Word of warning, do not leave a back door open to the public internet or the "Bots" WILL find it, and there are Vampire lawyers out there who feast on Bots droppings, leaving their prey very much weeker. Contact me off list if you want a more detailed example or three :) But Lets end it here, please ..... The other Bob On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 10:48:39 -0500, Dan Gahlinger wrote: >No it's not! >you can stream any of your own content, or creative commons, or public content, >or free content online all you want. >There is absolutely NOTHING illegal about any of that! >If you want to stream your collection of home movies, or even other public things, >or say you have a band and stream your own music or videos, that's totally legit, and your right. >and, you can also stream (download) from online sites, of any publicly broadcast material, free, >or other content. >The original replier to my message "assumed" there was illegal activity and wrote meaning and extra >words into my posting that were not there. >it's only the dinosaurs that think you can't enjoy media without doing something questionable. >> From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 09:18:37 -0500 >> Subject: Re: Content rights >> >> On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 19:07:09 -0600, Jim Brain wrote: >> >> >I'm not sure I follow this. If this guy uses MythTV to save all the >> >shows to NAS for time-shifted viewing, how is that "illegal"? >> >> Using MythTV or a PVR to time shift is not a problem, but the origional >> comment was "setup a NAS device and stream everything from online to their systems" >> and streaming online is a crime, as is distribution to others. >> "from online to their systems" indicates someone is distributing them to him. >> Had it been worded "from on air or live to their system" I would not have commented. >> >> The other Bob >> >> >> >_________________________________________________________________ From dgahling at hotmail.com Thu Jan 15 10:48:45 2009 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 11:48:45 -0500 Subject: Content rights In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20090115103406.04133eb0@mail.threedee.com> References: <200901151418.n0FEIeKm063744@keith.ezwind.net> <496F5B7E.8010901@jbrain.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20090115103406.04133eb0@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: yeah, we should take that all off-list. even the "off-topic" header of this list has been stretched :) > Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 10:34:28 -0600 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > From: jfoust at threedee.com > Subject: RE: Content rights > > > This thread is not related to classic computers, right? > > - John > _________________________________________________________________ Keep in touch and up to date with friends and family. Make the connection now. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/ From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com Thu Jan 15 11:20:10 2009 From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 12:20:10 -0500 Subject: A few newb/background questions about the XKL TOAD Message-ID: <8dd2d95c0901150920r4ed7d20te2ac77af67b9918c@mail.gmail.com> There's recently been a lot of talk about the XKL TOAD, and I, as an interested lurker had been holding my tounge, despite having some questions. No more. 1. How does the XKL compare with the Jupiter? Given that they both had features like an extended address space, was the XKL basically a "if DEC won't build it, we will" type of thing? 2. What the difference between the XKL TOAD and the various SC systems? Was SC a reseller/packager/intergrator or did they have their own seperate "Super KL"? 3. Does KLH10 support any of the XKL extensions? 4. Do the freeware copies of TOPS-20 floating around the internet have any support for these extensions or were those proprietary to the copies of TOPS-20 that shipped with TOADs? Thanks for answering this barrage of silly questions, Mike From geoffr at zipcon.net Thu Jan 15 11:30:25 2009 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 09:30:25 -0800 Subject: NCCC - Sunfire V100 / Solaris In-Reply-To: References: <18141.62.140.137.30.1231533528.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl><496E06C1.5030109@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: Option 2 below seems to be the one that applicable to your situation. From: http://www.sunshack.org/data/sh/2.1.8/infoserver.central/data/syshbk/collect ions/SRDB/1-25-78349-1.html Problem Statement: On LOM, the console command does not work with the following message. In addition, console -f does not help. lom>console Console is not shared lom>console -f Console is not shared Resolution: This problem can be seen when ttya is not set as input-device and output-device on OpenBoot[TM] PROM (OBP). To enable console functionality on LOM, it is neccessary to set ttya on both parameters. There are three options to do this. Option 1 When the Solaris[TM] Operating System is running on the Sun Fire V100, it can be set up by using the eeprom command with the following instruction: 1. Login to the system as root. 2. Execute the following commands: # eeprom input-device=ttya # eeprom output-device=ttya 3. Reboot the system Option 2 When Solaris Operating is not running on the Sun Fire V100, set to the default NVRAM settings by using bootmode command on LOM. This sets ttya as a default value for input-device and output-device. Do the following in LOM: lom> bootmode reset_nvram lom> reset Option 3 When Solaris Operating System is not running and the customer does not want to change other OBP parameters, try to connect a serial terminal via the serial-B port. On this port, OBP prompt might be seen. If the ok prompt can be seen, then set the two paramters with the following instructions: ok setenv input-device ttya ok setenv output-device ttya ok reset-all From lehmann at ans-netz.de Thu Jan 15 11:33:09 2009 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 18:33:09 +0100 Subject: what harddisk is this? In-Reply-To: <20090114194130.467b5f9d.lehmann@ans-netz.de> References: <20090114194130.467b5f9d.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Message-ID: <20090115183309.e99f0ad0.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Oliver Lehmann wrote: > http://files.pofo.de/harddisk/ > Ok, got two new pics - what interface is this? http://files.pofo.de/harddisk/ibm.jpg http://files.pofo.de/harddisk/ibm1.jpg -- Oliver Lehmann http://www.pofo.de/ http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Thu Jan 15 11:40:32 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 12:40:32 -0500 Subject: Old Software rights (was content rights) References: <496F5B7E.8010901@jbrain.com> <200901151624.n0FGOp2Y077212@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <18799.29968.483700.927030@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Dan" == Dan Gahlinger writes: Dan> In an unrelated topic, Dan> I have a bunch of old programs from my University days, back in Dan> the late 70's, early 80's all Vax/VMS code, in various Dan> languages, etc. Dan> In those days we never put "(C)" or copyright notices on code. Dan> I'm just wondering if it's generally "ok" to release this code Dan> to the public? First of all, IANAL. So apply salt to what follows. There's a lot of good stuff in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_copyright_law It depends on the date. It used to be the case that a "work" published without copyright notice was in the public domain. That is no longer true. Also, I'm pretty sure the rules are different for unpublished works. Some early commercial software products tripped over this -- CDC's COS and IBM OS/360 apparently are examples of public domain works. Dan> It's been 30 some years (longer than copyright would apply Dan> anyhow). I have searched for 20 years for some of the authors Dan> and never found anyone. Copyright these days is a LOT longer than 30 years. And even back in the 1940s, it was 28 years initially plus another 28 years if renewed (and if the copyright was still in effect in 1976 then the new long terms would into play, if I understood right) -- so if you have a copyrighted work from 1940, it's in the public domain today if it wasn't renewed, but it's still copyrighted if it WAS renewed. Dan> But another age old question, who has rights to code developed Dan> on the universities equipment? I know it's a common question Dan> these days, but "back in the day" such considerations never Dan> occurred, it was a different era. If the author was an employee, it would be "work for hire" and belong to the employer. Otherwise, it would belong to the author. For example, if you wrote it as a student for a class (as opposed to writing it as a research assistant in exchange for a pay check) it's your property, not the university's. That assumes there wasn't some explicit contract in effect assigning copyright to the university. (That happened occasionally; I remember the University of Illinois did this with PLATO -- but not in any other area that I ran into.) Dan> Everyone from that era has also vanished with the wind, I know, Dan> I've looked. Dan> So is it fairly safely abandoned? Another way to look at it - Dan> If it was your code, some small silly thing you wrote, would you Dan> care? Almost certainly not. But I find it's worth working hard to ask; people are often very willing to say yes, but if blind-sided by someone publishing their work without asking first will get annoyed. (That's particularly true if the publication is without correct credit; it sounds to me like you're careful to avoid that mistake...) paul From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Thu Jan 15 11:49:05 2009 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 12:49:05 -0500 Subject: what harddisk is this? In-Reply-To: <20090115183309.e99f0ad0.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Message-ID: <200901151749.n0FHn9sr086674@keith.ezwind.net> It is the 21ED interfaced used on the IBM System 36 and 38's The origional drives were 30mb but there was a later 60mb version. I dont know of anything else that used them. Bob On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 18:33:09 +0100, Oliver Lehmann wrote: >Oliver Lehmann wrote: >> http://files.pofo.de/harddisk/ >> >Ok, got two new pics - what interface is this? >http://files.pofo.de/harddisk/ibm.jpg >http://files.pofo.de/harddisk/ibm1.jpg >-- > Oliver Lehmann > http://www.pofo.de/ > http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ From slawmaster at gmail.com Thu Jan 15 12:25:46 2009 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 13:25:46 -0500 Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: <6772A0AD-FF0D-4D04-B040-78AA884E978D@shiresoft.com> References: <496E744F.7040706@bitsavers.org> <6772A0AD-FF0D-4D04-B040-78AA884E978D@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <7d3530220901151025m66f19bcj7b7d0f46e1d74a2b@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 6:46 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > Actually, he's gotten pretty far on it. I just talked to him today about > it. I'd have to go back and look at my e-mail archives but late Nov/Dec he > had it passing all of the DEC CPU diagnostics on a verilog simulator. Today > he told me how many FFs & LUTs it took (not as much as he thought) to > implement a KA10 style CPU (so he's doing synthesis). > > TTFN - Guy > > On Jan 14, 2009, at 3:25 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > >> > Both Neil Franklin and >> > Doug Conroy have done work in this area. >> >> Dave Conroy. >> >> He's not had time to work on it for a while now. >> >> > Promising! I've wanted to see a -10 in FPGA for a while now, never had the ambition (or the hardware) to try writing one in VHDL or anything. Good luck to Dave, I guess. John -- "I've tried programming Ruby on Rails, following TechCrunch in my RSS reader, and drinking absinthe. It doesn't work. I'm going back to C, Hunter S. Thompson, and cheap whiskey." -- Ted Dziuba From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 15 12:33:24 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 10:33:24 -0800 Subject: Old Software Rights Message-ID: <496F10F4.25473.1EAF9DC7@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Jan 2009 at 12:40, Paul Koning wrote: Copyright these days is a LOT longer than 30 years. And even back in > the 1940s, it was 28 years initially plus another 28 years if renewed > (and if the copyright was still in effect in 1976 then the new long > terms would into play, if I understood right) -- so if you have a > copyrighted work from 1940, it's in the public domain today if it > wasn't renewed, but it's still copyrighted if it WAS renewed. Copyright is implicit in all works produced today, whether or not stated. Almost all software published during the 1970s has a copyright notice embedded. After the Uruguay Round of the GATT talks, copyright for works published after 1923 whose copyright was in effect as of the URAA is 75 years, later extended to 90 by the Sonny Bono Copyright Extension Act (yes, he, or rather his widow, of the other half of Cher. Reportedly, Mary wanted to make copyright perpetual, but was informed that such a move was distinctly unconstituional). Read about the law at http://www.copyright.gov. Rules outside of the US may be substantially different. In particular, after the fall of the Soviet Union, legislation was passed in the US to allow works of Soviet origin to be removed from the Public Domain (so-called "restored" copyright. Who says you can't put the toothpaste back into the tube?). However, they may still be freely copied in Canada. Bottom line is that there is no such legal entity as "abandonware" and you promulgate the idea at your own risk. While economic damage is part of civil actions brought by copyright holders, it is not the whole picture. Unlike patent infringement, copyright violation in the US is a criminal offense under the DMCA. Just because no one seems to be using IBM 5160s to run Harvard Presentation Graphics from 360K diskettes does not make it legal to copy and distribute it. It's not up to the infringer to declare whether or not a work has any value. So you may have to wait until, oh, 2075 or so before you can legally hand out those old copies of Lotus 1-2-3, assuming that our Congress isn't goaded into action by the Empire of the Mouse again. As a musician, I'm continually frustrated by publishers of old copyrighted material (some stuff going back to the 1930s) who declare a work to be "permanently out of print" and will not authorize a copy (for a fee) nor provide me with a copy that they created from their archives. Currently, the only resort left is to pick some other work. There's nothing in copyright law to force the owner to publish or support his works, nor give permission to copy. And the notion of "Fair Use" is a very slippery slope--if you guess wrong, you're fully exposed. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jan 15 12:36:35 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 13:36:35 -0500 Subject: FPGA PDP-10 (was Re: XKL TOAD) Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 1:25 PM, John Floren wrote: > On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 6:46 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> Actually, he's gotten pretty far on it. I just talked to him today about >> it. I'd have to go back and look at my e-mail archives but late Nov/Dec he >> had it passing all of the DEC CPU diagnostics on a verilog simulator. Today >> he told me how many FFs & LUTs it took (not as much as he thought) to >> implement a KA10 style CPU (so he's doing synthesis). Nice. Thanks for the update, Guy. > Promising! I've wanted to see a -10 in FPGA for a while now, never had > the ambition (or the hardware) to try writing one in VHDL or anything. > Good luck to Dave, I guess. As I mentioned the other night, I'm peripherally interested in an FPGA-implemented -10, but I have a definite budget - I'm willing to roll a lot of my own hardware (loose parts, soldering, etc), but I really can't justify more than a few hundred $$$ in total. I certainly can't assist with the VHDL-end of things. Once things get past the experimental stage and it's booting TOPS-20, I'm likely to be more interested. My requirements are pretty loose - if it runs one of the extant compiled versions of MDL Zork, I'm in. -ethan From RichA at vulcan.com Thu Jan 15 12:53:30 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 10:53:30 -0800 Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: <496EE84C.2040605@update.uu.se> References: <496E3BC2.1020005@hawkmountain.net> <7d3530220901141132u21092c4dvb0073a5ba5af4200@mail.gmail.com> <496EE84C.2040605@update.uu.se> Message-ID: > From: Pontus > Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 11:40 PM >> Anyway, as far as I have been able to determine, all the KA-10 >> systems left in the world are located near Johnny Eriksson, as are >> all the KI-10 systems. > I suppose you mean Johnny Billquist, or is there another big collector > I don't know about :) Yes, I did. Too many Swedish PDP-10 hackers to keep track of without a program, you know? ;-) Thanks for the correction! Rich Alderson Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Jan 15 13:03:29 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 19:03:29 +0000 Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: References: <200901141506.43879.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <1232046209.6127.32.camel@elric> On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 15:19 -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote: > That and I don't have adequate electric service to the place without > upgrading the pole. I've got 100A for the house and quonset hut > *combined*. 24kW should be enough for anyone ;-) Of course, if you're in one of these funny 110V countries, that's only 11kW in which case my electric shower will eat most of that. Gordon From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jan 15 13:27:32 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 14:27:32 -0500 Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: <1232046209.6127.32.camel@elric> References: <200901141506.43879.pat@computer-refuge.org> <1232046209.6127.32.camel@elric> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 2:03 PM, Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: > On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 15:19 -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> That and I don't have adequate electric service to the place without >> upgrading the pole. I've got 100A for the house and quonset hut >> *combined*. > > 24kW should be enough for anyone ;-) > > Of course, if you're in one of these funny 110V countries, that's only > 11kW in which case my electric shower will eat most of that. Um... yeah... 11kW, not 24kW. I'm in the U.S. Fortunately I have a gas stove and gas heat and gas hot water, but the oven is electric, and so is the dryer. The quonset hut presently has a 30A breaker at the disconnect at the pole. I can run a couple of items at once (say an 11/750 and disk), but I'd rather not be out there replacing cartridge fuses on a regular basis. -ethan From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Jan 15 13:30:53 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 19:30:53 +0000 Subject: OT-ish, adverts was RE: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: References: <496CF994.5080104@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <1232047853.6127.39.camel@elric> On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 11:50 -0500, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > It's a fascinating discussion, especially with "everything" going this way. > Just exactly how well will the age-old advertising methods work online, > especially with everyone and their brother using things like ad-block? Make your adverts not be annoying. I feel bad about adblocking *every single sidebar ad* on qrz.com, but if they weren't all flickering animated gifs that strobe red and green I would tolerate them. I block any and all Flash ads, and any that are animated gifs. I also block those bloody annoying "pop-up link on words" intellitxt.com ads. They're annoying. Don't be annoying. Gordon From RichA at vulcan.com Thu Jan 15 13:49:06 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 11:49:06 -0800 Subject: A few newb/background questions about the XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: <8dd2d95c0901150920r4ed7d20te2ac77af67b9918c@mail.gmail.com> References: <8dd2d95c0901150920r4ed7d20te2ac77af67b9918c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > From: Michael Kerpan > Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 9:20 AM > There's recently been a lot of talk about the XKL TOAD, and I, as an > interested lurker had been holding my tounge, despite having some > questions. No more. > 1. How does the XKL compare with the Jupiter? Given that they both had > features like an extended address space, was the XKL basically a "if > DEC won't build it, we will" type of thing? The Jupiter (KC-10 processor) was physically very large, and designed to use the next generation(s) of DEC peripherals. It was implemented using technology similar to the KL-10, with a CI bus to HSC-50s. It was supposed to be a lot faster, but failed to meet specs. The Toad-1 System was the result of Len Bosack's suggestion in the mid 1970s (as the KL-10 was going out the door) that DEC should build "a 10 On A Desk." It was not originally intended to be a server. (This was the original product plan of cisco Systems, by the way. TCP/IP routers were simply a cash cow to generate revenue for the development effort. The VC Board of Directors saw things differently when the money rolled in.) As finally built, it's the size of a two-drawer file cabinet. The XKL-1 CPU uses a couple of Altera FPGAs and a 2916 microsequencer as the microcode engine. Depending on instruction load, it is 1.8 to 2.5 times as fast as a KL-10. > 2. What the difference between the XKL TOAD and the various SC > systems? Was SC a reseller/packager/intergrator or did they have their > own seperate "Super KL"? Systems Concepts started in the 1960s. Their first product, the SA-10, was a KA-10 I/O bus to IBM 360 bus-and-tag protocol converter, which allowed PDP-10 systems to use IBM disks (and tapes, I believe). Mike Leavitt and Stew Nelson, along with Pete Sampson, Fred Wright, Stu Grossman, and a couple of others whose names I've forgotten 20 years later, designed and built the SC-30M (code name Mars--as Fred put it in their marketing brochure, "Mars is a lot smaller than Jupiter, but it's a lot closer.") to be a KL-10 clone that ran faster. It was implemented in TTL instead of the KL-10's ECL, and was pipelined (something people-- even at XKL--think you can't do with the PDP-10 ISA) for greater throughput. It originally came with SA (bus-and-tag), CI, and EI (NIA-20 compatible Ethernet) interfaces; they got the MI (MASSBUS) working at our (Stanford LOTS) insistence. It maxed out at 8MW physical memory, but the work to take TOPS-20 from 4MW to 8MW was lost in a disk crash on their KI-10. It was about 2.2 to 2.4 times as fast as a KL-10. The SC-30M was designed as a multiprocessor system, to support Tops-10 SMP in a single box. They repackaged a uniprocessor version as the SC-25 (and as the Sc-20, with a half-speed clock). The big follow-on was the SC-40, with floating-point hardware that pushed the performance of FP operations to more than 10x of the KL-10; I don't know how it measured up in general instruction mix terms, as I never worked on one. > 3. Does KLH10 support any of the XKL extensions? No. > 4. Do the freeware copies of TOPS-20 floating around the internet have > any support for these extensions or were those proprietary to the > copies of TOPS-20 that shipped with TOADs? The extensions are XKL proprietary as of this writing. > Thanks for answering this barrage of silly questions, Not silly at all. I'm glad that you asked. Rich Alderson Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jan 15 13:56:33 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 14:56:33 -0500 Subject: OT-ish, adverts was RE: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: <1232047853.6127.39.camel@elric> References: <496CF994.5080104@jwsss.com> <1232047853.6127.39.camel@elric> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 2:30 PM, Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: > I block any and all Flash ads, and any that are animated gifs. I also > block those bloody annoying "pop-up link on words" intellitxt.com ads. > > They're annoying. Don't be annoying. I have to block flash... I'm on a Mac w/Firefox, and it started crashing this week when certain flash bits were put up - I finally got control of my magic yo-yo browser by catching the pop-under opening a Flash ad, and closing the window before it could load. I was about to take my machine off-line to let the browser get to a stable state when I finally found the offender. :-P It must be "my fault" for trying to let Flash run on a non-Wintel box. :-/ It seems every few months, some update gets pushed through that causes Flash to completely hose the browser. Flash is annoying. If you try to sell me something with a Flash ad, I'll probably never see it. -ethan From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Jan 15 13:57:05 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 14:57:05 -0500 Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: References: <200901141506.43879.pat@computer-refuge.org> <1232046209.6127.32.camel@elric> Message-ID: <496F9511.2080107@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 2:03 PM, Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ > wrote: >> On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 15:19 -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >>> That and I don't have adequate electric service to the place without >>> upgrading the pole. I've got 100A for the house and quonset hut >>> *combined*. >> 24kW should be enough for anyone ;-) >> >> Of course, if you're in one of these funny 110V countries, that's only >> 11kW in which case my electric shower will eat most of that. > > Um... yeah... 11kW, not 24kW. I'm in the U.S. I thought that main breakers in the US split-phase system were rated for amps across the full 240V of the main feed? Peace... Sridhar From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Thu Jan 15 14:10:22 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 15:10:22 -0500 Subject: XKL TOAD References: <200901141506.43879.pat@computer-refuge.org> <1232046209.6127.32.camel@elric> <496F9511.2080107@gmail.com> Message-ID: <18799.38958.253713.56561@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Sridhar" == Sridhar Ayengar writes: Sridhar> Ethan Dicks wrote: >> On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 2:03 PM, Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ >> wrote: >>> On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 15:19 -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> >>>> That and I don't have adequate electric service to the place >>>> without upgrading the pole. I've got 100A for the house and >>>> quonset hut *combined*. >>> 24kW should be enough for anyone ;-) >>> >>> Of course, if you're in one of these funny 110V countries, that's >>> only 11kW in which case my electric shower will eat most of that. >> Um... yeah... 11kW, not 24kW. I'm in the U.S. Sridhar> I thought that main breakers in the US split-phase system Sridhar> were rated for amps across the full 240V of the main feed? Sort of. Amps per leg, so if you have a 100 amp feed, that means you have TWO 110 volt legs each rated at 100 amps. You can hang onto that 200 amps worth of 110 volt loads, or 100 amps worth of 220 volt loads, or some blend of the two (provided the 110 volt loads are well enough balanced across the two legs that neither hits its individual 100 amp limit). Some US homes have only one leg (just 110 volt) but I think that's only for ancient 30 amp and maybe 60 amp feeds; 100 and 200 are always "two phase". So we're pretty close to Gordon. paul From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Jan 15 14:14:19 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 15:14:19 -0500 Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: <18799.38958.253713.56561@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200901141506.43879.pat@computer-refuge.org> <1232046209.6127.32.camel@elric> <496F9511.2080107@gmail.com> <18799.38958.253713.56561@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <496F991B.5040409@gmail.com> Paul Koning wrote: > Sort of. Amps per leg, so if you have a 100 amp feed, that means you > have TWO 110 volt legs each rated at 100 amps. You can hang onto that > 200 amps worth of 110 volt loads, or 100 amps worth of 220 volt loads, > or some blend of the two (provided the 110 volt loads are well enough > balanced across the two legs that neither hits its individual 100 amp > limit). So you still have to multiply the rating by 240V to get the watts. > Some US homes have only one leg (just 110 volt) but I think that's > only for ancient 30 amp and maybe 60 amp feeds; 100 and 200 are always > "two phase". > > So we're pretty close to Gordon. I figured. Peace... Sridhar From vern4wright at yahoo.com Thu Jan 15 14:41:01 2009 From: vern4wright at yahoo.com (Vernon Wright) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 12:41:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Old Software rights (was content rights) Message-ID: <669234.13686.qm@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Dan, My first comment is - watch your back! --- On Thu, 1/15/09, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > From: Dan Gahlinger > Subject: Old Software rights (was content rights) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Thursday, January 15, 2009, 8:48 AM > In an unrelated topic, > > I have a bunch of old programs from my University days, > back in the late 70's, early 80's > all Vax/VMS code, in various languages, etc. > > In those days we never put "(C)" or copyright > notices on code. > I'm just wondering if it's generally "ok" > to release this code to the public? > > It's been 30 some years (longer than copyright would > apply anyhow). > I have searched for 20 years for some of the authors and > never found anyone. > > 14 years ago I posted pieces of it, and said "if > anyone objects to this, please contact me" > and never got any response from anyone. Just an experience I recall observing. A guy was posting old games on USENET (don't recall which group), from the CP/M to early IBM PC era - games for which no owner could he could find, games that seemed to be abandoned. And then one day he announced that he would no longer be doing this, having been warned by his ISP and having received a cease and desist notice from a law firm. > The system and associated parts used for the development > are long gone. Copyright is a can of worms, particularly with the obscenely long period that has been recently legislated. And there will always be someone willing to threaten action. Your examples seem safe, but I would be quick to be responsive to any request to "desist". > But another age old question, who has rights to code > developed on the universities equipment? > I know it's a common question these days, but > "back in the day" such considerations never > occurred, > it was a different era. I well recall those days when software was free, included in the rental of the mainframe. Until unbundling and the "Program Product" which would rent or sell independently from the machine. IIRC, IBM's H Assembler for OS/360, first NEW product issued under the unbundling agreement, rented for $250/mo. in 1970 - which would be something more significant these days. Those days really ended around 1970. It's particularly annoying in the area of OS's for our classic computers, which remain under copyright to companies which may have gone belly-up, been absorbed and forgotten by their buyers, etc. Getting an old CP/M machine without the OS, and not having a legal source for it, makes 'criminals' of us all. And it's damned unfair! > Everyone from that era has also vanished with the wind, I > know, I've looked. > > So is it fairly safely abandoned? > Another way to look at it - If it was your code, some small > silly thing you wrote, would you care? Now that is a very GOOD question. There are a lot of things I've written that I would NEVER want seen - by ANYONE; guess they're in the class of 'silly'. Most of my serious software belongs to entities (alive or dead), under 'work for hire'. If it were distributed with their blessings, it wouldn't bother me; I've been paid - though never enough :) OTOH, I have several proprietary systems I have written for the use of my own business AND I WOULD EXPRESS SERIOUS ANNOYANCE if they were somehow obtained and distributed. But they have never been shared, and the likelihood of it happening seems small. That said, good fortune. Vern Wright > Dan. > > _________________________________________________________________ From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jan 15 15:18:06 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 21:18:06 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT-ish, adverts was RE: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <243764.85371.qm@web23403.mail.ird.yahoo.com> No, it's not that it's non-Wintel (hehe). I have problems with Flash on my laptop, especially flash intensive sites - it causes my browser (and sometimes my whole laptop) to slow to a crawl. Whilst a Pentium IIIm (@ 1GHz) is not state-of-the-art, it does everything else perfectly fine. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Thu, 15/1/09, Ethan Dicks wrote: From: Ethan Dicks Subject: Re: OT-ish, adverts was RE: Dr. Dobbs to cease? To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Thursday, 15 January, 2009, 7:56 PM On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 2:30 PM, Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: > I block any and all Flash ads, and any that are animated gifs. I also > block those bloody annoying "pop-up link on words" intellitxt.com ads. > > They're annoying. Don't be annoying. I have to block flash... I'm on a Mac w/Firefox, and it started crashing this week when certain flash bits were put up - I finally got control of my magic yo-yo browser by catching the pop-under opening a Flash ad, and closing the window before it could load. I was about to take my machine off-line to let the browser get to a stable state when I finally found the offender. :-P It must be "my fault" for trying to let Flash run on a non-Wintel box. :-/ It seems every few months, some update gets pushed through that causes Flash to completely hose the browser. Flash is annoying. If you try to sell me something with a Flash ad, I'll probably never see it. -ethan From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Jan 15 16:22:15 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 22:22:15 +0000 Subject: ebay idiots In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <496FB717.2050001@philpem.me.uk> Richard wrote: > So what did they do? Dropped it to $400 opening bid. > > Yeah, right. I've seen similar stupidity... A HP spectrum analyser, 1.8GHz, with HPIB option. No tracking generator option, just the base model with HPIB. Not even a current calibration certificate "but a quick 50MHz to 1GHz sweep with my Marconi signal generator suggests it's accurate". From what I can tell, the going rate for these things is about ?1500, calibrated by the dealer, but without a calibration certificate included. Original buy-it-now price was about ?1700. A bit high, but not excessive. About a week later, the starting bid goes UP to ?2249. You know, I always thought the idea was to REDUCE the starting bid to try and stimulate bidding, not increase it... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 15 16:42:27 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 14:42:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Old Software rights (was content rights) In-Reply-To: References: <496F5B7E.8010901@jbrain.com> <200901151624.n0FGOp2Y077212@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20090115143847.M35821@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 15 Jan 2009, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > But another age old question, who has rights to code developed on the universities equipment? Often the university! > So is it fairly safely abandoned? Absolutely NOT. The fact that YOU couldn't easily find the owner does NOT mean that there isn't one. I'll bet that you didn't even check with county records in all appropriate counties to confirm whether they were dead or alive, and who their heirs were. > Another way to look at it - If it was your code, some small silly thing > you wrote, would you care? And you think that YOU can determine which things I wrote are "some small silly thing"? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 15 17:01:00 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 15:01:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: anyone scans/PDFs of the DEC (VMS) "grey wall" ? In-Reply-To: References: <200805181651.m4IGou3k033025@keith.ezwind.net> <57789.71.139.37.220.1211136409.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20090115150006.W36631@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 18 May 2008, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > >> copyrights dont last forever. stuff from the 70s should be public domain > >> by now. Sorry, Dan, but that still isn't true. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 15 17:09:00 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 15:09:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090115150801.B36631@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 1 Jan 2008, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > I have in my possession a TK-50 tape for the PDP-11 system which > contains none other than OS/2 operating system. > > Many people have claimed this never existed. But I have the tape! > I had done a directory dump of it and can supply it. It is extremely unlikely that ANYBODY here will still be alive when copyright runs out on that. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Jan 15 17:21:35 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 23:21:35 +0000 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <20090115150801.B36631@shell.lmi.net> References: <20090115150801.B36631@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1232061695.6127.68.camel@elric> On Thu, 2009-01-15 at 15:09 -0800, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 1 Jan 2008, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > I have in my possession a TK-50 tape for the PDP-11 system which > > contains none other than OS/2 operating system. > > > > Many people have claimed this never existed. But I have the tape! > > I had done a directory dump of it and can supply it. > > It is extremely unlikely that ANYBODY here will still be alive when > copyright runs out on that. > I have in my possession a 3.5" DD floppy disk with the source code of an OS/2 operating system for 8086 PCs. It wasn't the same OS/2 as IBM had. It predates it by many years, I suspect. Just because it's got a picture of a baby on the label, doesn't mean the can has babies in it. Gordon From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jan 15 17:24:19 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 18:24:19 -0500 Subject: ebay idiots In-Reply-To: <496FB717.2050001@philpem.me.uk> References: <496FB717.2050001@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: > You know, I always thought the idea was to REDUCE the starting bid to try > and stimulate bidding, not increase it... Sometimes this technique actually works for bigger ticket items. Most people have a hard time making a choice and bidding on a big number item, with such short notice, as is with Ebay. They often need to think, ask questions, ask the wife, check the bank, ask the boss, and so forth. And then time runs out, and the item unsold - but the seller might have a bite or two. You people do not know this. You people have no idea the depth of interest the bites have. No idea of any of the interaction between the seller and some of the potential buyers. Those ebay idiots may be laughing all the way to the bank. And there is nothing wrong with it at all. No foul play. Honestly, guys, unless you are eight feet deep in the Ebay surplus selling business - your probably not really qualified to pass judgments. -- Will From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu Jan 15 17:44:29 2009 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 18:44:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: ebay idiots In-Reply-To: References: <496FB717.2050001@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: It's interesting to see people bid up an item for far more than they could purchase it outright, elsewhere. For instance, Ebay item #250354493695, a new box of 2000 punch cards, type 5081. With 2 hours left, the bid is already up to $76.00. These may be purchased from Cardamation for $36.00 Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 15 18:28:38 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 17:28:38 -0700 Subject: ebay idiots In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 15 Jan 2009 18:24:19 -0500. Message-ID: In article , "William Donzelli" writes: > You people do not know this. You people have no idea the depth of > interest the bites have. No idea of any of the interaction between the > seller and some of the potential buyers. Those ebay idiots may be > laughing all the way to the bank. And there is nothing wrong with it > at all. No foul play. Well, in this particular case I doubt the guy is going to be laughing all the way to the bank. Being the terminal/graphics freak that I am, I keep a close eye on HP2648A and other terminals in that line. So I am pretty well informed on what people are willing to pay, based on past sales and based on past listings that have expired with no bids. > Honestly, guys, unless you are eight feet deep in the Ebay surplus > selling business - your probably not really qualified to pass > judgments. I don't consider myself an expert on the surplus business, but I would consider myself pretty well informed on what terminals have been doing. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dgahling at hotmail.com Thu Jan 15 19:00:48 2009 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 20:00:48 -0500 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <1232061695.6127.68.camel@elric> References: <20090115150801.B36631@shell.lmi.net> <1232061695.6127.68.camel@elric> Message-ID: I wish you guys would pay attention, I never said it was os/2 for PDP. I just said that the files are os/2 and its a TK50 > From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 23:21:35 +0000 > Subject: Re: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 > > On Thu, 2009-01-15 at 15:09 -0800, Fred Cisin wrote: > > On Tue, 1 Jan 2008, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > > I have in my possession a TK-50 tape for the PDP-11 system which > > > contains none other than OS/2 operating system. > > > > > > Many people have claimed this never existed. But I have the tape! > > > I had done a directory dump of it and can supply it. > > > > It is extremely unlikely that ANYBODY here will still be alive when > > copyright runs out on that. > > > > I have in my possession a 3.5" DD floppy disk with the source code of an > OS/2 operating system for 8086 PCs. > > It wasn't the same OS/2 as IBM had. It predates it by many years, I > suspect. > > Just because it's got a picture of a baby on the label, doesn't mean the > can has babies in it. > > Gordon > _________________________________________________________________ Keep in touch and up to date with friends and family. Make the connection now. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 15 19:41:38 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 17:41:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <20090115150801.B36631@shell.lmi.net> <1232061695.6127.68.camel@elric> Message-ID: <20090115173532.A36631@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 15 Jan 2009, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > I wish you guys would pay attention, > I never said it was os/2 for PDP. > I just said that the files are os/2 and its a TK50 And we wish that you would not say "RE: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11" if it is your intent that you "never said it was os/2 for PDP". But, disunirregardless of that, intellectual property does not automagically become public domain, no matter how thoroughly it was "abandoned". Legally, In USA and Canada, it would not even count as a "good faith effort" to find the owner unless you also contacted all surviving relatives. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jan 15 19:44:27 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 20:44:27 -0500 Subject: ebay idiots In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Well, in this particular case I doubt the guy is going to be laughing > all the way to the bank. I was more or less using the latter example, with the Spectrum Analyzer. None of us know that whole picture of whatever was going on. > I don't consider myself an expert on the surplus business, but I would > consider myself pretty well informed on what terminals have been doing. OK, so I now I can comment on your example. Yes, we know that the initial prices for the tube were too much, and yes, we also acknowledge that you are the go to guy for terminals around these parts. But, consider the seller. He likely has no idea who you are, or what sort of qualifications you have, when you tell him he is way off the mark. Surplus dealers are often told the item X in their inventory is way too expensive. Yes, sometimes it is, and some honest customer is really just telling the truth. But, for every honest evaluation are one or two cheapskates trying to lowball and walk away with a super deal. I see this *all* the time - for example, almost *every* month I go to the MIT flea, I get one or two different guys trying to convince me that some part (mostly from my vacuum tubes) is worth only a fraction of what I want (the sad thing is that these cheapskates do this in order to save only one or two dollars.). But, I do not know if these guys are tube gurus or penny pinchers. So, I stick with my price until I can do some proper research, or if I get a few different people telling me the same thing. Of course, it turns out that most are pinchers and not gurus. So, do not be alarmed if your advice, as honest as it is, is ignored or taken lightly. Just move along, knowing you did your part. -- Will From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 15 20:11:36 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 19:11:36 -0700 Subject: ebay idiots In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 15 Jan 2009 20:44:27 -0500. Message-ID: In article , "William Donzelli" writes: > Yes, we know that the initial prices for the tube were too much, and > yes, we also acknowledge that you are the go to guy for terminals > around these parts. But, consider the seller. He likely has no idea > who you are, or what sort of qualifications you have, when you tell > him he is way off the mark. All true. When I emailed him, I introduced myself as a collector of serial terminals. On ebay I have written guides for collecting serial terminals. I think I also edited my personal profile there to say that I am a collector of serial terminals. When you browse my buying feedback, you'll see that pretty much all I buy are terminals :-). In this particular case, I told the guy that when he gets tired of trying to sell this particular terminal for a high price to contact me about selling me just the boards and then scrapping the tube and enclosure. (The 2647A has BASIC in ROM, so having the boards is not an unreasonable proposition; I could put the boards into a 264x enclosure that I already have with a reasonable tube and get an "upgrade". All the 264x terminals are essentially interchangeable as far as the power supply, tube and enclosure are concerned; what's different are the board sets and possibly slight variations on the keyboard. For this particular item, the guy doesn't have the keyboard either, and they are custom made for this particular terminal with a funky connector that's not standard either.) > Surplus dealers are often told the item X > in their inventory is way too expensive. Yes, sometimes it is, and > some honest customer is really just telling the truth. But, for every > honest evaluation are one or two cheapskates trying to lowball and > walk away with a super deal. Yep, that's understood. But its ebay. I expect a little haggling as part of the transaction. Of course, ebay has set up the haggling to pretty much work in one direction only: increasing prices. There was one of these 2648As for sale by a surplus dealer based out of Boise. He listed it twice, the second time reducing the price. It was still a little pricey for me. After it didn't sell the second time, I contacted him privately and said "hey, I'll drive up to Boise and pick it up from you on a Saturday for $XX cash." (He had regular business hours on Saturday, so this was not me asking him to open up just for me.) I don't know what he had planned on doing with it after listing it twice and having it fail, but I drove up there and met him in person and put the cash in his palms and took home a nice 2648A. He was a reasonable guy about it. I understand the "surplus dealer" pricing mentality. There's that guy we've talked about before (he keeps changing his ebay handle recently, so I don't know what he's going by now) that is located in upstate NY. You can always tell his listings because they always include the same boiler plate text "This item will look good in your vintage computer collection.". Now that guy does have some rare stuff and he does move items at his price point, so from a business perspective he's not an idiot. However, the Visual Technology terminal that I bought from him was so poorly packaged for shipment that it arrived as a smashed pile of plastic. That tells me that he is still an idiot, particularly since he is obviously trying to appeal to collectors. Nobody collects smashed and damaged goods. Based on that experience, I won't be buying from him again, no matter how rare it is, nor will I recommend him to anyone else and in fact, just the opposite, I will caution people in buying from him. Since I'm a vocal member of the community he's trying to market his goods towards, that's just plain stupid. Again, its the idiocy. There seems to be a recent trend on ebay for places that collect electronics for recycling to have someone who picks out the "old" items for sale on ebay. I don't begrudge them wanting to make a buck off something collectible, but they seem to have nothing but dollar signs in their heads when it comes to pricing. $800 for an HP2621A *without* the keyboard, and the keyboard listed separately for another $200? I watch these items that have "buy it now or best offer" and make a best offer each time the listing expires. They, of course, refuse my best offer because they want an order of magnitude more than what these items have sold for in the past (I save off completed listings to build a price history). But hey, maybe eventually a sucker will come in and buy it, or maybe they'll eventually realize that they're charging more than the market will bear. Serial terminals are a bit odd in that they are not irreplaceable one-of-a-kind units. You can easily replace them with a commodity PC and a serial port running a terminal emulation program. When serial terminals break down in a working vintage computer setup, they don't need to spend $800 on a vintage replacement when $20 from the local used computer store will do the job. Sometimes its different with Tektronix graphics terminals, though, because they *do* have a specialized function and at least for the raster based terminals, there isn't a readily available terminal emulation program for a PC. (The 401x series is such a standard protocol that it *is* readily emulatable by almost any terminal emulator program.) I've bought many terminals from surplus dealers on ebay, most of the time I'm the only bidder. There's a few dealers that have been a joy to buy from and most have been just ordinary transactions. A few are downright clueless and those are the ones I would say are idiots. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Thu Jan 15 20:18:24 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 21:18:24 -0500 Subject: anyone scans/PDFs of the DEC (VMS) "grey wall" ? In-Reply-To: <20090115150006.W36631@shell.lmi.net> References: <200805181651.m4IGou3k033025@keith.ezwind.net> <57789.71.139.37.220.1211136409.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <20090115150006.W36631@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: FWIW, there's a server somewhere on the Internet -- in Australia perhaps? -- that serves up the DEC documentation CD from VMS V5 or V6 or thereabouts. I remember finding it when I was out looking for Infoserver documentation. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin > Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 6:01 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: anyone scans/PDFs of the DEC (VMS) "grey wall" ? > > On Sun, 18 May 2008, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > >> copyrights dont last forever. stuff from the 70s should be public > domain > > >> by now. > > Sorry, Dan, > but that still isn't true. From dgahling at hotmail.com Thu Jan 15 21:26:41 2009 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 22:26:41 -0500 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <20090115173532.A36631@shell.lmi.net> References: <20090115150801.B36631@shell.lmi.net> <1232061695.6127.68.camel@elric> <20090115173532.A36631@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: your message is non-sequitur... those two subjects are totally unrelated. wow you people twist stuff totally out of proportion. the OS/2 for PDP had nothing to do with finding the owners or any junk like that. It was a TK50 tape with OS/2 files on it, the TK50 was for the PDP, and from a PDP. whether it *is* OS/2 for the PDP or not, has not been ascertained, and so what if it's just PC OS/2 dumped on a TK50? that is why it was posted that way there were several reasons for that, not the least of which is, I presumed that someone on this list could validate it. but no one ever offered that- instead you post junk like this interlinking two totally disconnected threads for no reason. as for the copyright stuff, yeah living relatives, nice try. If you could find living relatives you could find the person. As I've stated, I've looked for some people for about 20 years now, no idea where they are. Oh yeah, public records, leads up to a certain year, then nothing. I'm gonna hire a PI to find each person at $xK per day? don't think so. I'll take the more useful advice, post portions, with proper credit and notification, and *if* by some miracle someone asks me to take it down, then I'll do that. if I ever get a notice, it'll be one way to find the person, or whoever represents them. in the mean time, I'll be posting the directory contents of that OS/2 PDP TK50 tape so *maybe* someone can identify it properly. because regardless of what it turns out to be, it's a truly weird thing to have... Dan. > Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 17:41:38 -0800 > From: cisin at xenosoft.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 > > On Thu, 15 Jan 2009, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > I wish you guys would pay attention, > > I never said it was os/2 for PDP. > > I just said that the files are os/2 and its a TK50 > > And we wish that you would not say "RE: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11" > if it is your intent that you "never said it was os/2 for PDP". > > But, disunirregardless of that, intellectual property does not > automagically become public domain, no matter how thoroughly it was > "abandoned". > > Legally, In USA and Canada, it would not even count as a "good faith > effort" to find the owner unless you also contacted all surviving > relatives. _________________________________________________________________ From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Jan 15 21:31:51 2009 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 19:31:51 -0800 Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: <496F9511.2080107@gmail.com> References: <200901141506.43879.pat@computer-refuge.org> <1232046209.6127.32.camel@elric> <496F9511.2080107@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Jan 15, 2009, at 11:57 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: >> On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 2:03 PM, Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ >> wrote: >>> On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 15:19 -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> >>>> That and I don't have adequate electric service to the place >>>> without >>>> upgrading the pole. I've got 100A for the house and quonset hut >>>> *combined*. >>> 24kW should be enough for anyone ;-) >>> >>> Of course, if you're in one of these funny 110V countries, that's >>> only >>> 11kW in which case my electric shower will eat most of that. >> Um... yeah... 11kW, not 24kW. I'm in the U.S. > > I thought that main breakers in the US split-phase system were rated > for amps across the full 240V of the main feed? In many cases, the power is 208v 3-phase (that's measured between any two phases). If you look at each phase to ground you see ~110-120v. Single phase 220v is sometimes done by using two of the three phases. You don't get the full voltage but usually equipment doesn't care too much. All of the US DEC gear that uses 3-phase is the 208v 3-phase variety. There's another version of 3-phase that doesn't allow this. I'm not an electrician so I don't know the exact differences. My shop is wired for 208v 3-phase and it make running things like my 2065 & RP06s *much* easier (although not easy on the wallet). :-) TTFN - Guy From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Jan 15 21:55:39 2009 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 19:55:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: ebay idiots In-Reply-To: References: <496FB717.2050001@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Jan 2009, Mike Loewen wrote: > It's interesting to see people bid up an item for far more than they could > purchase it outright, elsewhere. For instance, Ebay item #250354493695, a > new box of 2000 punch cards, type 5081. With 2 hours left, the bid is > already up to $76.00. These may be purchased from Cardamation for $36.00 > I bet the bidder doesn't know that. If they win it, you might want to email them. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 15 22:21:20 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 20:21:20 -0800 Subject: ebay idiots In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <496F9AC0.20226.20CA03BC@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Jan 2009 at 19:55, Gene Buckle wrote: > On Thu, 15 Jan 2009, Mike Loewen wrote: > > > It's interesting to see people bid up an item for far more than they could > > purchase it outright, elsewhere. For instance, Ebay item #250354493695, a > > new box of 2000 punch cards, type 5081. With 2 hours left, the bid is > > already up to $76.00. These may be purchased from Cardamation for $36.00 > > > I bet the bidder doesn't know that. If they win it, you might want to > email them. :) Well now, let's be fair. These are "Genuine Vintage IBM 5081" cards, not your average vanilla-box stuff. Actually, they might be worth that if the printing were, say, language-specific, such as "IBM 1401/1410 Autocoder" or "Univac 1107 SLEUTH". But then, they'd be auctioned of $1 each on eBay... Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 15 22:25:41 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 20:25:41 -0800 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: , <20090115173532.A36631@shell.lmi.net>, Message-ID: <496F9BC5.31229.20CE02BF@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Jan 2009 at 22:26, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > It was a TK50 tape with OS/2 files on it, the TK50 was for the PDP, and from a PDP. > whether it *is* OS/2 for the PDP or not, has not been ascertained, and so what if it's just PC OS/2 dumped on a TK50? I'm confused. Does the tape contain the source code for IBM OS/2? If so, it's pretty clear who holds the rights, isn't it? Just not following the drift of the conversation, sorry for my denseness. Cheers, Chuck From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Jan 16 04:28:39 2009 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 11:28:39 +0100 Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: <4970564F.70306@softjar.se> References: <200901151652.n0FGqAbc084785@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4970564F.70306@softjar.se> Message-ID: <20090116102839.GA21158@Update.UU.SE> On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 10:41:35AM +0100, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> I suppose you mean Johnny Billquist, or is there another big collector I >> don't know about :) > > No. Johnny Eriksson (aka Bygg) is not me. I don't collect PDP-10 stuff. > I collect PDP-8 and PDP-11 stuff (along with some VAXen and other DEC > things). Ah, that name rings a bell, I've probably read something related to stacken with "Bygg" in it. > powered on for close to 20 years now. (The name KATIA is a pun in > Swedish, by the way.) If I remember correctly, KICKI is as well :) Anyway, Stacken had some cool stuff back in the day: http://www.stacken.kth.se/~thn/StoraHallen.html http://www.stacken.kth.se/~thn/FullScale/f2-7.jpg I guess most of this is with Peter and Bygg these days? Does stacken have anything left? Maybe I should ask someone at stacken instead :-P Cheers, Pontus From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Fri Jan 16 04:39:56 2009 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 11:39:56 +0100 Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: <20090116102839.GA21158@Update.UU.SE> References: <200901151652.n0FGqAbc084785@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4970564F.70306@softjar.se> <20090116102839.GA21158@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: > Anyway, Stacken had some cool stuff back in the day: > > http://www.stacken.kth.se/~thn/StoraHallen.html > http://www.stacken.kth.se/~thn/FullScale/f2-7.jpg Wow! In the second picture, somebody must have used muscles! On top of the DataSystem 11/70 (?) is an RL01 or RL02 drive, and *on top of that* an RA8x ! Poor RL drive :-) Great pictures BTW, a "must see" (drool)! - Henk. From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jan 16 04:47:35 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 05:47:35 -0500 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <496F9BC5.31229.20CE02BF@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <20090115173532.A36631@shell.lmi.net>, <496F9BC5.31229.20CE02BF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <497065C7.3050104@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 15 Jan 2009 at 22:26, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > >> It was a TK50 tape with OS/2 files on it, the TK50 was for the PDP, and from a PDP. >> whether it *is* OS/2 for the PDP or not, has not been ascertained, and so what if it's just PC OS/2 dumped on a TK50? > > I'm confused. Does the tape contain the source code for IBM OS/2? > If so, it's pretty clear who holds the rights, isn't it? > > Just not following the drift of the conversation, sorry for my > denseness. I'm reasonably certain that the source code for even OS/2 1.0 wouldn't fit into a TK50. Peace... Sridhar From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri Jan 16 05:32:50 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 11:32:50 +0000 Subject: ebay idiots In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1232105570.6127.91.camel@elric> On Thu, 2009-01-15 at 19:11 -0700, Richard wrote: > > Sometimes its different with Tektronix graphics terminals, though, > because they *do* have a specialized function and at least for the > raster > based terminals, there isn't a readily available terminal emulation > program for a PC. (The 401x series is such a standard protocol that > it > *is* readily emulatable by almost any terminal emulator program.) If you've got a manual that describes these specialised grpahics modes, then it's just a small matter of programming. All you need then is a student with a computer, a rainy weekend, some pizza and a bag of weed. Gordon From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Jan 15 13:42:31 2009 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 14:42:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: OT-ish, adverts was RE: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: <1232047853.6127.39.camel@elric> References: <496CF994.5080104@jwsss.com> <1232047853.6127.39.camel@elric> Message-ID: <200901152008.PAA00988@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Just exactly how well will the age-old advertising methods work >> online, especially with everyone and their brother using things like >> ad-block? > Make your adverts not be annoying. [...] Yes, but... > They're annoying. Don't be annoying. Right. But what's annoying differs, sometimes drastically, from person to person. I, for example, find _any_ piggybacked advertising annoying, even print ads in print magazines. (Provided they stay only mildly annoying, I usually tolerate them, but it's definitely toleration of an annoyance.) I will not tolerate TV unless I can at least mute the ads. And I'm _very_ ad-averse in "online" content (even if not actually online, eg in email), to the point where even things like two-line "free" email footer ads annoy me; I've been known to, when replying to email bearing them, quote them and reply as if I thought the email's author wrote them, as a form of comment on them. Ads are a major fraction of why I don't use the Web to any substantial extent. I wrote Illiad a cheque (after some emailed negotiation) rather than put up with the ads on userfriendly (this was before I discovered xkcd; these days I never even look at userfriendly). When my annoyance tolerance is low I will even do stuff on my computers rather than watch hockey games, because of the bloody annoying ads - and for me ignoring a hockey game really says something. (I don't have a TV, but when visiting my gf on the weekends I sometimes watch hers when there's something I find interesting enough to overcome my general aversion to the medium.) I've had marketing people try to tell me that customers don't mind ads. But - well, for example, I recently saw an ad on a municipal bus trumpeting that some radio station would, for a certain few hours every week, run ad-free; that they thought this worth plugging (despite the irony of an ad trumpeting ad-free-ness) says to me that claims customers don't mind ads are..somewhere on the spectrum between overgeneralization and delusion. Yeah, I know. "Ads pay for content." No they don't - or rather, they do only at the surface level. The truth is more like, the advertiser's customers pay for the content, filtered through (and with a cut skimmed off by) the advertisers' advertising departments. I would _much_ rather pay directly for the content and _not_ pay advertising departments' pounds-of-flesh for damn near everything I buy. (Interestingly enough, the things I buy are almost disjoint from the products being advertised in the ads I see - I've often seen an ad and wished I were in the market for its product so I could avoid that advertiser.) Especially when I'm already nominally paying for the content anyway - eg, a movie ticket, a cable TV subscription, or, to pick an example that's actually closer to reasonable for me, a print magazine. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jlobocki at gmail.com Thu Jan 15 17:31:48 2009 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 17:31:48 -0600 Subject: Old Software rights (was content rights) In-Reply-To: <20090115143847.M35821@shell.lmi.net> References: <496F5B7E.8010901@jbrain.com> <200901151624.n0FGOp2Y077212@keith.ezwind.net> <20090115143847.M35821@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: to chime in, but not fully involve myself in this... A good example is microsoft basic and possibly some of microsofts earliest works. they were developed on university equipment, and bill gates threw a fit and took out a full page ad just to call everyone thieves because of people copying and using it. On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 4:42 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 15 Jan 2009, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > But another age old question, who has rights to code developed on the > universities equipment? > > Often the university! > > > So is it fairly safely abandoned? > > Absolutely NOT. > The fact that YOU couldn't easily find the owner does NOT mean that there > isn't one. I'll bet that you didn't even check with county records in all > appropriate counties to confirm whether they were dead or alive, and who > their heirs were. > > > Another way to look at it - If it was your code, some small silly thing > > you wrote, would you care? > > And you think that YOU can determine which things I wrote are "some small > silly thing"? > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > From jws at jwsss.com Thu Jan 15 18:17:35 2009 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 16:17:35 -0800 Subject: ebay idiots In-Reply-To: References: <496FB717.2050001@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <496FD21F.501@jwsss.com> Mike Loewen wrote: > > Ebay item #250354493695, a new box of 2000 punch cards, type > 5081. I bought an M-1000 Documation punch from him in about 2003. His card punch / reader business imploded with the Fla 2000 debacle and the push by a lot of his money clients to get out of cards just because of the stigma from that. He had a lot of nice Documation readers he sold out at the time. Jim From bqt at softjar.se Fri Jan 16 03:41:35 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 10:41:35 +0100 Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: <200901151652.n0FGqAbc084785@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901151652.n0FGqAbc084785@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4970564F.70306@softjar.se> Pontus wrote: >> > Anyway, as far as I have been able to determine, all the KA-10 systems >> > left in the world are located near Johnny Eriksson, as are all the KI-10 >> > systems. >> > >> > > > I suppose you mean Johnny Billquist, or is there another big collector I > don't know about :) No. Johnny Eriksson (aka Bygg) is not me. I don't collect PDP-10 stuff. I collect PDP-8 and PDP-11 stuff (along with some VAXen and other DEC things). Johnny Eriksson is also in Stockholm, but I didn't know he had taken care of the KA and KI systems. And as far as KI systems goes, Peter Lothberg still have KICKI, so Bygg don't have all of those. Admittedly a technicality since if they aren't stored at the same place, it's still in the same town. So on a "world" scale, they are perhaps all "here". But maybe Rich Alderson meant just "near" as in physically not far from, even if not in his possession. The only KA-10 system I know of, by the way, is KATIA, which was owned by Stacken. I had/have an account on it, but I don't think it's been powered on for close to 20 years now. (The name KATIA is a pun in Swedish, by the way.) >> > Oh. I didn't mention that, did I? The Toad-1 system dissipates about >> > 1500W in operation and plugs into a wall socket. The KL-10, with the >> > original power harness, requires 240V x 60A 3-phase, with a power-on >> > inrush of ~12.4KVA, and a steady-state operational requirement of ~6-9KVA. >> > >> > > > I Wish we could get our DECsystem-20 running again, I think we could get > the power, but space and cooling is more of a concern. It's all a question about money. But yes, it would be nice to get one of them running again. Johnny From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Fri Jan 16 08:40:02 2009 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 09:40:02 -0500 Subject: ebay idiots In-Reply-To: <1232105570.6127.91.camel@elric> Message-ID: <200901161440.n0GEe6Pf009547@keith.ezwind.net> On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 11:32:50 +0000, Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: >If you've got a manual that describes these specialised grpahics modes, >then it's just a small matter of programming. All you need then is a >student with a computer, a rainy weekend, some pizza and a bag of weed. Dont forget a case of Bawls and mabe a second pizza. Bob From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri Jan 16 09:00:48 2009 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 10:00:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: ebay idiots In-Reply-To: <496FD21F.501@jwsss.com> References: <496FB717.2050001@philpem.me.uk> <496FD21F.501@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Jan 2009, jim s wrote: > I bought an M-1000 Documation punch from him in about 2003. His card punch / > reader business imploded with the Fla 2000 debacle and the push by a lot of > his money clients to get out of cards just because of the stigma from that. > He had a lot of nice Documation readers he sold out at the time. A lot of M-1000s and M-600s showed up on Ebay about the same time. I picked up a M-1000L in 2006 and built Brian Knittel's USB interface for it: http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/Documation/ Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Jan 16 09:13:46 2009 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 16:13:46 +0100 Subject: PDP-8 front panels Message-ID: <20090116151346.GA8227@Update.UU.SE> PDP-8s has been used for just about everything and have almost as many different front panels. This is one of the more esoteric ones I've seen: http://www.flickr.com/photos/joachimschwanter/414790437/ Is this a one off custom build? Rebuilt by a PDP-15 lover perhaps? Appearantly it was showcased at VCF Europe in 2008, maybe someone was there and can shed some light on it. Hope this is tech enough for cctech :) Cheers, Pontus. From bob at jfcl.com Fri Jan 16 09:25:17 2009 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 07:25:17 -0800 Subject: DC319 DLARTs and T11s (was T-11 ....) Message-ID: <001a01c977ee$a350e7c0$e9f2b740$@com> >A while ago, Choctaw Bob ]bob099 at centurytel.net] wrote: > > [Schematic of Peter McCollum's hand built T11 SBC] > Schematic here http://www.geocities.com/saipan59/dec/t11.jpg I just got around to looking at this (sorry - been busy :-) and while it's nice and simple, it uses a 6850 UART for the console. It's easy enough to interface the 6850 (or any other modern UART for that matter) to the T11 bus, but it's not going to be even remotely PDP-11 compatible. If you want to have any hope of ever running any real PDP-11 software, you're going to need a DL11/KL11 compatible console interface. For the T11 that means you also want a DC319AA DLART (a "DL-11 compatible UART chip") chip, and after looking around those seem to be far more difficult to come by than the DCT11 CPU chips. Does anybody have a pile of DC319 chips handy, or know where they can be found? Unlike the T11 chips, which can be harvested from a lot of fairly common and not very valuable DEC boards (e.g. RQDX3s), I don't know of any good donor for DLARTs. There are a couple on my FALCON SBC-11/21 board, but I'm hardly willing to take it apart for this project :-) If you can't find a DC319, then the alternative is to build a DL11 compatible interface using a standard UART like the 6402 and a handful of discrete logic. I think the minimum you could get away with would be to implement the DONE and INTERRUPT ENABLE bits (bits 6 and 7) for both the receiver and transmitter CSR, and then to implement the standard vectors at 60/64. Oh, and of course the data registers for the transmitter and receiver. The KL11 also implements a MAINTENANCE bit, a BUSY bit, and a READER ENABLE bit, but a) we have no reader, b) I doubt (I'm hoping) much software ever looks at the BUSY bit, and c) probably nothing uses the MAINTENANCE bit except the diagnostics. ISTR that DEC had an "official" standard written down for exactly what was required of a DL-11 compatible serial interface, but I can't find it anywhere. Bob From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Fri Jan 16 09:27:49 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 10:27:49 -0500 Subject: XKL TOAD References: <200901141506.43879.pat@computer-refuge.org> <1232046209.6127.32.camel@elric> <496F9511.2080107@gmail.com> Message-ID: <18800.42869.433730.371461@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> >>>>> "Guy" == Guy Sotomayor writes: Guy> On Jan 15, 2009, at 11:57 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> I thought that main breakers in the US split-phase system were >> rated for amps across the full 240V of the main feed? Guy> In many cases, the power is 208v 3-phase (that's measured Guy> between any two phases). If you look at each phase to ground Guy> you see ~110-120v. Right, that's called 120/208 Y (or "wye"). You have three phase wires plus a neutral. So if phase to neutral is 120 volts nominal, then phase to phase is 2 x 120 / cos (30degrees) which is 208 volts. Guy> Single phase 220v is sometimes done by using Guy> two of the three phases. You don't get the full voltage but Guy> usually equipment doesn't care too much. No, that's not how it is done. In the USA, homes don't get 3 phase power. Instead, the transformer feeding the house has a 240 volt secondary which is center-tapped where the center is grounded (neutral). So you have two "hot" wires 180 degrees out of phase, 240 volts between them and 120 volts between each and neutral. And it uses only one transformer, and draws on only one phase from the high voltage line along the road. In fact, away from densely populated areas you will often see just one wire on top of the pole, whic is one of the three high voltage phases. Guy> All of the US DEC gear that uses 3-phase is the 208v 3-phase Guy> variety. There's another version of 3-phase that doesn't allow Guy> this. I'm not an electrician so I don't know the exact Guy> differences. There are lots of choices. If you want to be able to power 120 volt appliances and need 3 phase power, then 120/208 Y connected is the logical approach. If you need 3 phase but no 1 phase (say, for motors) then 240 volt delta (no neutral, three phase lines, 240 volts between phases) works well. Need more power? Use 480 instead of 240. I've seen references to 277/480 Y, so you have 480 phase to phase for motors and single phase stuff (like lights) get 277. That doesn't show up in homes but it sounds like you might find it in factories. A different scheme for getting 120 in a three phase setting that I've seen mentioned in books uses a three-phase transformer wired delta fashion, 240 volts between phases, with one of the three center-tapped and the center grounded. So from those wires you can get 120 volt (phase to neutral). There are probably other schemes, especially in power hungry factories... paul From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jan 16 09:35:00 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 07:35:00 -0800 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <497065C7.3050104@gmail.com> References: , <20090115173532.A36631@shell.lmi.net>, <496F9BC5.31229.20CE02BF@cclist.sydex.com> <497065C7.3050104@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 5:47 AM -0500 1/16/09, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >Chuck Guzis wrote: >>On 15 Jan 2009 at 22:26, Dan Gahlinger wrote: >> >>>It was a TK50 tape with OS/2 files on it, the TK50 was for the >>>PDP, and from a PDP. >>>whether it *is* OS/2 for the PDP or not, has not been ascertained, >>>and so what if it's just PC OS/2 dumped on a TK50? >> >>I'm confused. Does the tape contain the source code for IBM OS/2? >>If so, it's pretty clear who holds the rights, isn't it? >> >>Just not following the drift of the conversation, sorry for my denseness. > >I'm reasonably certain that the source code for even OS/2 1.0 >wouldn't fit into a TK50. > >Peace... Sridhar One thing I'd like to know is why this thread was resurrected after just over a year. On that note, I believe the consensus a year ago was that someone probably backed up their OS/2 install onto a TK50. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Fri Jan 16 09:37:20 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 10:37:20 -0500 Subject: Old Software rights (was content rights) References: <496F5B7E.8010901@jbrain.com> <200901151624.n0FGOp2Y077212@keith.ezwind.net> <20090115143847.M35821@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <18800.43440.574128.594432@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> >>>>> "joe" == joe lobocki writes: joe> to chime in, but not fully involve myself in this... A good joe> example is microsoft basic and possibly some of microsofts joe> earliest works. they were developed on university equipment, and joe> bill gates threw a fit and took out a full page ad just to call joe> everyone thieves because of people copying and using it. I can understand that. It would be his property no matter where developed, unless it was "work for hire" or explicitly assigned to the university by an assignment of copyright contract. paul From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Fri Jan 16 09:52:49 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 13:52:49 -0200 Subject: thinking of selling my PDP-11/23+ References: <20090114170647.o03wbwh175wck4oo@webmail2.centurytel.net> Message-ID: <3ebe01c977f2$8e4223e0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> > Now that I have a working PDP-11/23+ system, I find (as I should have > known from many similar projects) that the "fun" was really in > accumulating the pieces and getting it working. I don't really have > anything I want to DO with it (although I suppose that is the whole point > of classic computing :) but I have run ADVENT. Hahahahaha, just the same as me :) BTW, I'm selling a huge lot of brazilian-made computers. Anyone wanting to bid in? I can consolidate shipping and send everything at once. From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Fri Jan 16 09:56:05 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 10:56:05 -0500 Subject: DC319 DLARTs and T11s (was T-11 ....) References: <001a01c977ee$a350e7c0$e9f2b740$@com> Message-ID: <18800.44565.982281.178742@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> >>>>> "Bob" == Bob Armstrong writes: Bob> If you can't find a DC319, then the alternative is to build a Bob> DL11 compatible interface using a standard UART like the 6402 Bob> and a handful of discrete logic. I think the minimum you could Bob> get away with would be to implement the DONE and INTERRUPT Bob> ENABLE bits (bits 6 and 7) for both the receiver and transmitter Bob> CSR, and then to implement the standard vectors at 60/64. Oh, Bob> and of course the data registers for the transmitter and Bob> receiver. Bob> The KL11 also implements a MAINTENANCE bit, a BUSY bit, and a Bob> READER ENABLE bit, but a) we have no reader, b) I doubt (I'm Bob> hoping) much software ever looks at the BUSY bit, and c) Bob> probably nothing uses the MAINTENANCE bit except the Bob> diagnostics. Bob> ISTR that DEC had an "official" standard written down for Bob> exactly what was required of a DL-11 compatible serial Bob> interface, but I can't find it anywhere. The approach you described should do the job. If all you need is compatibility with console boot drivers, you could leave off the interrupt machinery since those things tend to run in polled mode. But for an OS you'd need IE and the interrupt. And if you want to ignore inbound errors, you need only implement the low byte of the receive data register. This would be a nice small VHDL exercise... paul From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Jan 16 10:13:46 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 11:13:46 -0500 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <497065C7.3050104@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200901161113.46086.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 16 January 2009, Zane H. Healy wrote: > One thing I'd like to know is why this thread was resurrected after > just over a year. I suspect that Fred was trying to be funny. I thought it was funny, but other people seem to have gotten bent out of shape about it. I'm not sure why his mail got any replies, other than the, uh, environment here. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From dgahling at hotmail.com Fri Jan 16 10:43:08 2009 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 11:43:08 -0500 Subject: thinking of selling my PDP-11/23+ In-Reply-To: <3ebe01c977f2$8e4223e0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> References: <20090114170647.o03wbwh175wck4oo@webmail2.centurytel.net> <3ebe01c977f2$8e4223e0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> Message-ID: what is it about completing a classic computing project that does that? I've completed two major projects, and find myself lacking, constantly thinking now what? I have a dozen vax3100/76 systems I could test, but I can't get motivated about it. I keep feeling that if I finish that work, I'll be left with nothing. feeling empty. Same goes for all the old code I have, if I restore it and post it, then what? how does it's longevity get ensured? will anyone actually care? and if I finish it all, what will I putter on for enjoyment? the fun seems to not come from completing a classic computing project, but the doing, I guess our wives will never understand that ;) Dan. > From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 13:52:49 -0200 > CC: > Subject: Re: thinking of selling my PDP-11/23+ > > > Now that I have a working PDP-11/23+ system, I find (as I should have > > known from many similar projects) that the "fun" was really in > > accumulating the pieces and getting it working. I don't really have > > anything I want to DO with it (although I suppose that is the whole point > > of classic computing :) but I have run ADVENT. > > Hahahahaha, just the same as me :) > > BTW, I'm selling a huge lot of brazilian-made computers. Anyone wanting > to bid in? I can consolidate shipping and send everything at once. > > > _________________________________________________________________ From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 16 11:05:15 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 12:05:15 -0500 Subject: what harddisk is this? In-Reply-To: <200901151749.n0FHn9sr086674@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200901151749.n0FHn9sr086674@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: Ahh, I thought it looked familiar! I really need to carve out some space to fire up the System/36 (5360) I got last summer. -Dave On Jan 15, 2009, at 12:49 PM, Bob Bradlee wrote: > It is the 21ED interfaced used on the IBM System 36 and 38's > The origional drives were 30mb but there was a later 60mb version. > I dont know of anything else that used them. > > Bob > > > On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 18:33:09 +0100, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > >> Oliver Lehmann wrote: > >>> http://files.pofo.de/harddisk/ >>> > >> Ok, got two new pics - what interface is this? > >> http://files.pofo.de/harddisk/ibm.jpg >> http://files.pofo.de/harddisk/ibm1.jpg > >> -- >> Oliver Lehmann >> http://www.pofo.de/ >> http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ > > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Fri Jan 16 11:04:11 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 15:04:11 -0200 Subject: thinking of selling my PDP-11/23+ References: <20090114170647.o03wbwh175wck4oo@webmail2.centurytel.net><3ebe01c977f2$8e4223e0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> Message-ID: <3f8d01c977fc$abe75be0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> >the fun seems to not come from completing a classic computing project, but >the doing, The journey is the reward. My wife never seems to understand that. Lucky me I'm always the last word here at my home: Yes M'am Pu1BZZ Alexandre :) From slawmaster at gmail.com Fri Jan 16 11:08:21 2009 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 12:08:21 -0500 Subject: ebay idiots In-Reply-To: <200901161440.n0GEe6Pf009547@keith.ezwind.net> References: <1232105570.6127.91.camel@elric> <200901161440.n0GEe6Pf009547@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <7d3530220901160908q605ec770p19a2a4cd56fa28a@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 9:40 AM, Bob Bradlee wrote: > On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 11:32:50 +0000, Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: > >>If you've got a manual that describes these specialised grpahics modes, >>then it's just a small matter of programming. All you need then is a >>student with a computer, a rainy weekend, some pizza and a bag of weed. > > Dont forget a case of Bawls and mabe a second pizza. > > Bob I didn't think anyone actually drank Bawls when doing programming... always struck me as more a 16 year-old's "HEY GRAB A BAWLS AND LET'S PLAY COUNTERSTRIKE DOOD" drink. Personally, I prefer beer or Coke. John -- "I've tried programming Ruby on Rails, following TechCrunch in my RSS reader, and drinking absinthe. It doesn't work. I'm going back to C, Hunter S. Thompson, and cheap whiskey." -- Ted Dziuba From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Jan 16 11:13:22 2009 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 12:13:22 -0500 Subject: thinking of selling my PDP-11/23+ In-Reply-To: References: <20090114170647.o03wbwh175wck4oo@webmail2.centurytel.net> <3ebe01c977f2$8e4223e0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> Message-ID: <4970C032.1070809@mdrconsult.com> Dan Gahlinger wrote: > what is it about completing a classic computing project that does that? > I've completed two major projects, and find myself lacking, > constantly thinking now what? I don't think that's true for everyone in the hobby, but it certainly is for me. I experience the same thinking in my job. Fortunately, as a consultant, I build it or fix it and move on, leaving the day-to-day drudge to somebody else. :) Every job I've ever had was similar. When I made jewelry, I loved my work, and apparently so did my customers, but the only piece that I wore was the same plain silver earring that's been in my ear since '92 or so. People who buy jigsaw puzzles almost never frame their work. The fun is in solving the puzzles and seeing a result. > the fun seems to not come from completing a classic computing project, but the doing, > > I guess our wives will never understand that ;) Our wives understand that perfectly. They just expect us to clean up our puzzles when we're done. :) Doc From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Fri Jan 16 12:02:17 2009 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 13:02:17 -0500 Subject: ebay idiots In-Reply-To: <7d3530220901160908q605ec770p19a2a4cd56fa28a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200901161802.n0GI2Op1031206@keith.ezwind.net> On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 12:08:21 -0500, John Floren wrote: >On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 9:40 AM, Bob Bradlee wrote: >> On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 11:32:50 +0000, Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: >> >>>If you've got a manual that describes these specialised grpahics modes, >>>then it's just a small matter of programming. All you need then is a >>>student with a computer, a rainy weekend, some pizza and a bag of weed. >> >> Dont forget a case of Bawls and mabe a second pizza. >> >> Bob >I didn't think anyone actually drank Bawls when doing programming... >always struck me as more a 16 year-old's "HEY GRAB A BAWLS AND LET'S >PLAY COUNTERSTRIKE DOOD" drink. Personally, I prefer beer or Coke. >John >-- >"I've tried programming Ruby on Rails, following TechCrunch in my RSS >reader, and drinking absinthe. It doesn't work. I'm going back to C, >Hunter S. Thompson, and cheap whiskey." -- Ted Dziuba As for Bowls, you may be correct, I have never tasted the stuff. I do know they sell it by the case at Microcenter, and the current generation like it. Programmers choose their own lubricants. I have always found Hunter S. Thompson's choice tends to lead to circular logic. I switch between a Ginsing Green Tea mix and a dark local brewed Rootbeer myself ... The problem is, some of the early graphic terminals were mated to their applications at a very low level. A lot of assumptions were made in the low level communications with the "terminal smarts". It was common for service people to come across compatibility issues swapping out monitors..... oh! if you want to be able to run ...... then you have to have ....... roms installed or it will never work right! It is more than a weekends task, even with, as the origional poster commented, "a bag of weed". We are drifting far from "ebay idiots". Back under my rock ..... The other Bob From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jan 16 12:14:27 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 10:14:27 -0800 Subject: XKL TOAD Message-ID: <4970CE83.9040606@bitsavers.org> > Actually, he's gotten pretty far on it. Good to hear he's had time to work on it again. He hadn't for quite a while with everything that's been going on. I had forgotten to ask him about it when I talked to him in Dec. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jan 16 12:36:04 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 10:36:04 -0800 Subject: ecycling Message-ID: <4970D394.20601@bitsavers.org> > There seems to be a recent trend on ebay for places that collect > electronics for recycling to have someone who picks out the "old" items > for sale on ebay. They have been cherry picking the incoming stuff for years. The big one around here is Computer Recycling Center, next to Weird Stuff (who is in the same biz). Most modern PC stuff they get goes to schools, they eBay the stuff they can get money from, and put the dregs up for sale on Saturday mornings. Feeding frenzy at 9:00 AM when they open. I wander by every once and a while to pick up cheap PCI cards, or the odd bit of old software no one else wants. Most of the store front junk stores around here disappeared as manufacturing left the valley, and the bottom feeders from bankruptcies go directly to eBay now with no retail presence. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jan 16 13:14:53 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 11:14:53 -0800 Subject: Novell 68K file server Message-ID: <4970DCAD.8090108@bitsavers.org> Here are some pics of a Novell file server circa 1987. http://bitsavers.org/pdf/novell/68k_file_server Was wondering if anyone had documentation or software for this. I had some of the external dual drive scsi boxes for these at one point. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jan 16 13:47:35 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 11:47:35 -0800 Subject: A few newb/background questions about the XKL TOAD Message-ID: <4970E457.5000404@bitsavers.org> > 4. Do the freeware copies of TOPS-20 floating around TOPS-20 is not "freeware". There is nothing in the software distributions that claims it is so. XKL bought the rights when DEC got out of the 36-bit business. Not asserting your rights to something is quite different from an assertion that it is "freeware". This is also one of those rocks you really don't want to turn over.. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 16 15:09:28 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 13:09:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <200901161113.46086.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <497065C7.3050104@gmail.com> <200901161113.46086.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <20090116130138.G57185@shell.lmi.net> > On Friday 16 January 2009, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > One thing I'd like to know is why this thread was resurrected after > > just over a year. On Fri, 16 Jan 2009, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > I suspect that Fred was trying to be funny. I thought it was funny, but > other people seem to have gotten bent out of shape about it. I'm not > sure why his mail got any replies, other than the, uh, environment > here. Yes, it was my fault. I thought that it was an ideal example of ownership of intellectual property not being an issue of possession nor lack of knowledge of the whereabouts of the author in the "abandonware" thread. Sorry, -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Jan 16 15:13:26 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 16:13:26 -0500 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200901161613.27399.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 14 January 2009 11:50:37 am Dan Gahlinger wrote: > It's a fascinating discussion, especially with "everything" going this way. > Just exactly how well will the age-old advertising methods work online, > especially with everyone and their brother using things like ad-block? > > I'm not sure where it will end up, I suspect it's an indication of a deeper > issue. > > Off-topic but perhaps related is TV, look at what's happening with that, > the traditional TV is almost dead. I'm not sure, but my feeling is that the > new US plans to kill analog TV may completely kill TV. If it's not going to kill it here, it's going to at least injure it seriously... I myself could care less in terms of most of the over-the-air stuff we get coming in here. With a set of rabbit ears, I've not considered either cable or a dish to be a worthwhile investment in recent years, too much of a time-sink, and I've got better things to do with what limited funds I have available. Other members of the household feel differently about it, but where that ends up remains to be seen since what we're looking at is a bit more than just hooking up a converter box, it seems like it's going to need an antenna as well. > Why have TV when you can stream anything you want any time you want from > the internet? Where is the place for it, and advertising when you can > download shows for free (or "free") or close to it? Yep, I have some music streaming as I type this, and just got done watching some music videos. > Microsoft (and others) plans of a TV set-top box for internet access > continually fail, and yet, in some ways, that's exactly where we're going, > the computer becomes the entertainment center. Their plans will definitely fail. Same thing with operating systems, too. I spent an absurd amount of time yesterday on a service call because of an attempt at a system restore wasn't working, and although the guy was receptive to the idea of linux I couldn't go there in that context. All this because of m$ and their worries about piracy. > a friend of mine has dumped TV (sat/cable, etc), they setup a NAS device > and stream everything from online to their systems, and their TV's have > rca/coax/digital connectors. with 2 1TB drives of media, and various > systems with NFS mounts for other media. I know of a number of folks with such setups. > There's no advertising in there at all, no revenue stream, and no on-going > cost for him to operate (except electricity). surprisingly perhaps, the > reduction in electricity usage is exactly why he did it, he turned off 3 > systems in place of the one NAS, which uses 1/3rd power of any of those > systems alone. Just so. > Someone once predicted the death of "tv" in the early 21st century, it > feels like we're on the cusp at least. Yes. > however, my question is, isn't TV a major source of advertising income, > sales, and revenues? if everything goes this way, what happens to the > market then? > > As i said, there's a deeper issue lurking below the surface. There are going to be some major upheavals in the way that business is done. The Cluetrain Manifesto (available for free online) points in some interesting directions. Government trying to maintain the status quo and the sheer size of some large corporations is only going to prolong things, but it *will* change and I suspect that we'll be seeing a lot of those changes happening a lot sooner than most suspect. We're drifting pretty far off the topic of the list here, though. If anybody else wants to take up some of this stuff feel free to join me in my "tech chat" group on yahoo... > > From: IanK at vulcan.com > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 08:09:40 -0800 > > Subject: RE: Dr. Dobbs to cease? > > > > >-----Original Message----- > > >From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > >bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jim s > > >Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 12:29 PM > > >To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > >Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs to cease? > > > > > > > > > > > >Richard wrote: > > > > > >Quoted Ian: > > > > > > > > >I believe that there are two different issues here. Moderation of a > > >forum of which the the membership of is open to anyone is different than > > >the model where the writers and participants are chosen and there is an > > >editor / writer relationship in place. > > > > > >It requires some business model or resource to support the latter, since > > >there is usually going to be a dedicated group if there is to be any > > >quality to it, in order for the enterprise to function. > > > > > >Selling magazines used to do that. I do not believe that there is the > > >same resource to support these with online models. It remains to be > > >seen if the old publishing companies with magazines and an online > > >presence can survive, or if other ones will. Certainly the treatment of > > >the DDJ readership was not handled very well. I would think that there > > >would have been a cost effective model which would have allowed for all > > >online publishing and getting rid of the cost of the physical magazine > > >as a step rather than effectively erasing it the way they did. > > > > > >Having a group like this with minimum moderation and one which is > > >heavily edited like the comp group mentioned is not going to produce the > > >same results. > > > > In discussions I've had with librarians regarding printed vs. online > > journals, I've been told that the costs of producing the physical > > artifact are a small fraction of the overall cost. The cost of that > > staff predominates. However, advertising is an important revenue flow. > > Once upon a time, I started receiving a magazine to which I had not > > subscribed. When I asked why, the publisher replied that they were > > trying to boost their circulation numbers so they could increase their > > advertising rates. They made more money by giving away their product! > > (After a while, I realized why they had to give it away and asked them to > > stop sending it to me, free or not.) -- Ian > > _________________________________________________________________ > Keep in touch and up to date with friends and family. Make the connection > now. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/ -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Jan 16 15:50:34 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 16:50:34 -0500 Subject: OT-ish, adverts was RE: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: <1232047853.6127.39.camel@elric> References: <1232047853.6127.39.camel@elric> Message-ID: <200901161650.34764.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 15 January 2009 02:30:53 pm Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: > On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 11:50 -0500, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > It's a fascinating discussion, especially with "everything" going this > > way. Just exactly how well will the age-old advertising methods work > > online, especially with everyone and their brother using things like > > ad-block? > > Make your adverts not be annoying. I feel bad about adblocking *every > single sidebar ad* on qrz.com, but if they weren't all flickering > animated gifs that strobe red and green I would tolerate them. > > I block any and all Flash ads, and any that are animated gifs. I also > block those bloody annoying "pop-up link on words" intellitxt.com ads. > > They're annoying. Don't be annoying. > > Gordon Just so. I wonder if they'll ever get a clue? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From scheefj at netscape.net Fri Jan 16 17:00:23 2009 From: scheefj at netscape.net (Jim Scheef) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 18:00:23 -0500 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <497065C7.3050104@gmail.com> References: , <20090115173532.A36631@shell.lmi.net>, <496F9BC5.31229.20CE02BF@cclist.sydex.com> <497065C7.3050104@gmail.com> Message-ID: <49711187.9020802@netscape.net> Would someone with a working TK50 please get this tape and dump it out so we can but this to bed? Jim Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 15 Jan 2009 at 22:26, Dan Gahlinger wrote: >> >>> It was a TK50 tape with OS/2 files on it, the TK50 was for the PDP, >>> and from a PDP. >>> whether it *is* OS/2 for the PDP or not, has not been ascertained, >>> and so what if it's just PC OS/2 dumped on a TK50? >> >> I'm confused. Does the tape contain the source code for IBM OS/2? If >> so, it's pretty clear who holds the rights, isn't it? >> >> Just not following the drift of the conversation, sorry for my denseness. > > I'm reasonably certain that the source code for even OS/2 1.0 wouldn't > fit into a TK50. > > Peace... Sridhar From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Jan 16 17:05:26 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 18:05:26 -0500 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <49711187.9020802@netscape.net> References: <497065C7.3050104@gmail.com> <49711187.9020802@netscape.net> Message-ID: <200901161805.27083.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 16 January 2009, Jim Scheef wrote: > Would someone with a working TK50 please get this tape and dump it > out so we can but this to bed? Or better yet, maybe the thread could just die. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri Jan 16 20:25:31 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 02:25:31 +0000 Subject: thinking of selling my PDP-11/23+ In-Reply-To: <3f8d01c977fc$abe75be0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> References: <20090114170647.o03wbwh175wck4oo@webmail2.centurytel.net> <3ebe01c977f2$8e4223e0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> <3f8d01c977fc$abe75be0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> Message-ID: <1232159131.6127.103.camel@elric> On Fri, 2009-01-16 at 15:04 -0200, Alexandre Souza wrote: > Pu1BZZ Alexandre :) Wait, wait, you're another radio amateur? Not surprised there's a crossover with classic computing. Wonder who else? Fred van Kempen was, but I haven't seen nor heard anything from him for at least two years. Gordon From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jan 16 20:44:55 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 18:44:55 -0800 Subject: hams on classiccmp Message-ID: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> > Wonder who else? probably lots.. Eric Smith just got his licence. I know Don North is, as am I (wb9ggj) From chris at mainecoon.com Fri Jan 16 21:00:42 2009 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 19:00:42 -0800 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> References: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <497149DA.2000308@mainecoon.com> Al Kossow wrote: >> Wonder who else? > > probably lots.. > > Eric Smith just got his licence. > I know Don North is, as am I (wb9ggj) I'm AF6AP, at least on the amateur side. Kilovolts in ceramic and glass can be a lot of fun when it's not trying to kill you. -- Chris Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP/AFA9KC http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." From bob_lafleur at technologist.com Fri Jan 16 21:08:34 2009 From: bob_lafleur at technologist.com (Bob Lafleur) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 22:08:34 -0500 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> References: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <06cb01c97850$e3597fa0$aa0c7ee0$@com> > Wonder who else? I'm not an active discussioner on the list, but have been a lurker for many years. My call is NQ1C. From brain at jbrain.com Fri Jan 16 21:11:02 2009 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 21:11:02 -0600 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> References: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <49714C46.5010400@jbrain.com> Al Kossow wrote: > > Wonder who else? > > probably lots.. > > Eric Smith just got his licence. > I know Don North is, as am I (wb9ggj) KB8WYW, though I don't get online much. From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Jan 16 21:24:15 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 22:24:15 -0500 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> References: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <200901162224.15658.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 16 January 2009, Al Kossow wrote: > > Wonder who else? > > probably lots.. > > Eric Smith just got his licence. > I know Don North is, as am I (wb9ggj) Same here, but I haven't really had enough time to do anything with that stuff in quite a while, with everything else I have going on. Pat (KD9VAX) -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From tpeters at mixcom.com Fri Jan 16 21:56:09 2009 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 21:56:09 -0600 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <200901162224.15658.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20090116215533.022164f8@localhost> At 10:24 PM 1/16/2009 -0500, you wrote: >On Friday 16 January 2009, Al Kossow wrote: > > > Wonder who else? > > > > probably lots.. > > > > Eric Smith just got his licence. > > I know Don North is, as am I (wb9ggj) > >Same here, but I haven't really had enough time to do anything with that >stuff in quite a while, with everything else I have going on. > >Pat (KD9VAX) KD9VAX, what a great call for a classic computer guy. 73 de N9QQB ----- 535. [Love] What woman says to fond lover should be written on air or the swift water. --Catullus (B.C. 84?-54?) Carmina. LXX 3. --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Jan 16 22:03:42 2009 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 22:03:42 -0600 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> References: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <51ea77730901162003o207ae9cdwc5d898a5e0e64efb@mail.gmail.com> >> Wonder who else? KB9SXO here. Got my Tech license years ago at one of those cram-session deals through the local HAM club. I've got a 2M/440 Yaesu in the car that gets turned on maybe once a month, not including when it gets tuned to NOAA Weather Radio. It is fun to play with the local repeaters and their phone patches though :) I also enjoy DX listening when I can manage to pull in a signal with my Slinky antenna. No yard for a long wire here... -- jht From james at jdfogg.com Fri Jan 16 22:07:47 2009 From: james at jdfogg.com (james) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 23:07:47 -0500 Subject: hams on classiccmp Message-ID: <49715993.74.d18.995@jdfogg.com> > > Wonder who else? > > probably lots.. > > Eric Smith just got his licence. > I know Don North is, as am I (wb9ggj) I'm former N1QCO, Presently KB1Qff (that needs to change, I'll be using the vanity call program). I spent a lot of time and money to get on HF this time around and was sorely disappointed to find it a lot like CB radio. And it's not the nubies making it a chore to listen. From innfoclassics at gmail.com Fri Jan 16 22:09:09 2009 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 20:09:09 -0800 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> References: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 6:44 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> Wonder who else? KE7ZFG - New ham, January 6, 2009. I should have done this 40 years ago when I had much more time for radio. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From james at jdfogg.com Fri Jan 16 22:15:34 2009 From: james at jdfogg.com (james) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 23:15:34 -0500 Subject: Novell 68K file server Message-ID: <49715b66.3dc.bfc.6997@jdfogg.com> > Here are some pics of a Novell file server circa 1987. > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/novell/68k_file_server > > Was wondering if anyone had documentation or software for > this. I had some of the external dual drive scsi boxes for > these at one point. This reminds me of a similar oddity I used to support years ago. 3Com made a server, and an OS called 3+ Open. As I recall, it was an OS/2 - LAN Manager derivative. From db at db.net Fri Jan 16 22:26:10 2009 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 23:26:10 -0500 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <49715993.74.d18.995@jdfogg.com> References: <49715993.74.d18.995@jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <20090117042610.GA81375@night.db.net> On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 11:07:47PM -0500, james wrote: > > > Wonder who else? > > ... > I spent a lot of time and money to get on HF this time > around and was sorely disappointed to find it a lot like CB > radio. And it's not the nubies making it a chore to listen. Try psk31. Much more fun. - 73 Diane VA3DB -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From steve at radiorobots.com Fri Jan 16 22:31:58 2009 From: steve at radiorobots.com (steve stutman) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 23:31:58 -0500 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: References: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <49715F3E.30203@radiorobots.com> Paxton Hoag wrote: > On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 6:44 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > >>> Wonder who else? >>> > > KE7ZFG - New ham, January 6, 2009. I should have done this 40 years > ago when I had much more time for radio. > > Paxton > > KL7JT Did it 42 years ago, when I did have time for radio. hihi From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Jan 16 22:46:57 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 20:46:57 -0800 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <49715F3E.30203@radiorobots.com> References: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> , <49715F3E.30203@radiorobots.com> Message-ID: I was a ham nearly four decades ago. I'd thought about getting back into it, but a lot of the fascination I had then, getting cranky old equipment (all I could afford) to work, is the fascination I have now for getting cranky old computer equipment to work. I just got a VAX-11/780-5 up with VMS on TCP/IP.... -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of steve stutman [steve at radiorobots.com] Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 8:31 PM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: hams on classiccmp Paxton Hoag wrote: > On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 6:44 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > >>> Wonder who else? >>> > > KE7ZFG - New ham, January 6, 2009. I should have done this 40 years > ago when I had much more time for radio. > > Paxton > > KL7JT Did it 42 years ago, when I did have time for radio. hihi From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Fri Jan 16 22:49:55 2009 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 20:49:55 -0800 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <49715F3E.30203@radiorobots.com> References: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> <49715F3E.30203@radiorobots.com> Message-ID: <49716373.4090407@sbcglobal.net> steve stutman wrote: > Paxton Hoag wrote: >> On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 6:44 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> >>>> Wonder who else? > KL7JT > > Did it 42 years ago, when I did have time for radio. hihi > I'm KJ6VL. Looks like there are quite a few hams here. Bob From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Fri Jan 16 23:13:46 2009 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko at juno.com) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 05:13:46 GMT Subject: Novell 68K file server Message-ID: <20090116.211346.1739.0@webmail10.vgs.untd.com> -- "james" wrote: >> Here are some pics of a Novell file server circa 1987. >> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/novell/68k_file_server >> >> Was wondering if anyone had documentation or software for >> this. I had some of the external dual drive scsi boxes for >> these at one point. > > >This reminds me of a similar oddity I used to support years >ago. 3Com made a server, and an OS called 3+ Open. As I >recall, it was an OS/2 - LAN Manager derivative. Ah yes, the era of the 3Server is forever seared into my brain; my first *real* job in the computer business involved the care and feeding of several generations of these beasties. The Original 3Server (about the same vintage as the Novell unit pictured earlier) used an 80188 and a heavily modified version of MS-DOS. It used an early SCSI implementation, which was closer to SASI, to attach MFM disks and QIC tapes via Adaptec bridge boards. Because there were neither video nor ISA bus, there was more room for contiguous DOS memory; something over 700k, which pertty cool at the time. They originally were equipped with 30MB drives, but then the 3Server70 had an 80Mb (unformatted) unit by Vertex. These early boxes had the (optional) QIC tape in an external box; the 3Server3 introduced in 1986 (IIRC) had disk and tape in one box; in addition the 3Server3 could be interfaced with appletalk, and also sported the then-new LIM memory used to speed up the operating system. These 80188 systems all used either 3+Share or EtherSeries NOS's for basic drive sharing. IN addition, 3+Mail, 3+Route (for routing e-mail between sites), 3+Backup and other network applications were supported under the 3+Share NOS (in <1Mb RAM). These were followed by the 3S400 & 3S500 machines, which are not interesing as they are little more than stock ISA 80386 machines running at 16MHz. These guys could run 3+Share, or 3+Open (a.k.a. OS/2 LanMan as pointed out above). ISTR that they added TCP/IP late in that products life. Then Novell took over the world and all of the above 'stuff' died in obscurity. It was at this point where I learned in my life that I had a knack for picking losers. I need a stiff drink now . . . . ____________________________________________________________ Wasting money? Stop, now. Click here for top online coupon websites. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw3g7mjTpd5rxcCErbhdwKhlKnlk8EtDpjxtBY6Z0UQK5hj8i/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jan 16 23:15:05 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 00:15:05 -0500 Subject: Hams (was Re: thinking of selling my PDP-11/23+) Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 9:25 PM, Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: > On Fri, 2009-01-16 at 15:04 -0200, Alexandre Souza wrote: > >> Pu1BZZ Alexandre :) > > Wait, wait, you're another radio amateur? Not surprised there's a > crossover with classic computing. Wonder who else? N8TVD Technician _with_ code (not that it matters anymore) -ethan From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Jan 16 23:16:10 2009 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 21:16:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> References: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jan 2009, Al Kossow wrote: >> Wonder who else? > > probably lots.. > 73, de kc7afe. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Fri Jan 16 23:20:54 2009 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko at juno.com) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 05:20:54 GMT Subject: hams on classiccmp Message-ID: <20090116.212054.1739.1@webmail10.vgs.untd.com> -- steve stutman wrote: Paxton Hoag wrote: > On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 6:44 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > >>> Wonder who else? >>> > > KE7ZFG - New ham, January 6, 2009. I should have done this 40 years > ago when I had much more time for radio. > > Paxton > > >KL7JT > >Did it 42 years ago, when I did have time for radio. hihi KH6JJN since 1977. And I *proudly* retain the only callsign I've ever held, issued in my home state of Hawaii. There are so many things in our world that change, there should be at least a *few* things that stay the same. 73's-- Jeff ____________________________________________________________ Chart your path to success with a smart new business plan. Click here! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw3BIs8K3lpfqKylvZg5CTRR9uv4FAIvcWThbUhkg9bKiu5ci/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 16 23:43:10 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 00:43:10 -0500 Subject: Hams (was Re: thinking of selling my PDP-11/23+) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <34B0CF43-0386-4B2D-88A5-09B43A4F790D@neurotica.com> On Jan 17, 2009, at 12:15 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> Pu1BZZ Alexandre :) >> >> Wait, wait, you're another radio amateur? Not surprised there's a >> crossover with classic computing. Wonder who else? > > N8TVD > > Technician _with_ code (not that it matters anymore) Formerly KA2UZK, tech with code, long since expired and long past the grace period, looking for time to re-up. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From brain at jbrain.com Fri Jan 16 23:45:53 2009 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 23:45:53 -0600 Subject: Hams (was Re: thinking of selling my PDP-11/23+) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49717091.6020600@jbrain.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > N8TVD > > Technician _with_ code (not that it matters anymore) > > -ethan > Hehe, we could all get into the code versus no-code debate... What fun! /me has a lowly Tech license, so I bow at your greatness... (or something like that). Hey, Cedar Rapids, IA is frigid today, and my family wants to know how cold the bottom of the world is, according to Ethan's .signature, so I told them I'd check, but nothing in your .sig. Jim From classiccmp at crash.com Fri Jan 16 23:54:48 2009 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 21:54:48 -0800 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> References: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <497172A8.7000009@crash.com> Al Kossow wrote: > > Wonder who else? > > probably lots.. Looks that way, N1ZHU here. Picked up a no-code Tech so I could work Communications on the '97 NYC Marathon. Never did that much with it, but I've got a Kenwood HF rig around here somewhere waiting for round tuits... --S. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jan 16 23:54:59 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 22:54:59 -0700 Subject: Hams (was Re: thinking of selling my PDP-11/23+) In-Reply-To: <49717091.6020600@jbrain.com> References: <49717091.6020600@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <497172B3.5000906@jetnet.ab.ca> Jim Brain wrote: > Hey, Cedar Rapids, IA is frigid today, and my family wants to know how > cold the bottom of the world is, according to Ethan's .signature, so I > told them I'd check, but nothing in your .sig. So cold ... the temp froze to Ethan's server. Ethan may still be in the US now. > Jim > > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Jan 17 00:00:56 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 23:00:56 -0700 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <49716373.4090407@sbcglobal.net> References: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> <49715F3E.30203@radiorobots.com> <49716373.4090407@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <49717418.5090200@jetnet.ab.ca> Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > Looks like there are quite a few hams here. ... is temped to upload a photo of Mis Piggy ... The biggest Ham I can think of. From blstuart at bellsouth.net Sat Jan 17 00:23:48 2009 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart at bellsouth.net) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 00:23:48 -0600 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <20090116.212054.1739.1@webmail10.vgs.untd.com> Message-ID: > KH6JJN since 1977. > > And I *proudly* retain the only callsign I've ever held, > issued in my home state of Hawaii. Wow that sounds familiar, except that I was licensed in TN. 73s, BLS, WD4AWY From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 17 00:26:22 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 22:26:22 -0800 Subject: Hams (was Re: thinking of selling my PDP-11/23+) In-Reply-To: <34B0CF43-0386-4B2D-88A5-09B43A4F790D@neurotica.com> References: , <34B0CF43-0386-4B2D-88A5-09B43A4F790D@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4971098E.6724.26628FDA@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Jan 2009 at 0:43, Dave McGuire wrote: > Formerly KA2UZK, tech with code, long since expired and long past > the grace period, looking for time to re-up. A very very long time ago, WA9NEK. Discovered girls and computers and lost interest in yakking. Cheers, Chuck From marvin at west.net Sat Jan 17 00:53:38 2009 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 22:53:38 -0800 Subject: hams on classiccmp Message-ID: <49718072.48CB2BDE@west.net> > Wonder who else? I'm VERY active with ARDF (Amateur Radio Direction Finding.) Check out the www.homingin.com So. Cal results and the US ARDF team to give you an idea. I got my extra only so I didn't have to worry about the frequency when putting on 80M hunts. Marvin, KE6HTS From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Sat Jan 17 01:31:45 2009 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko at juno.com) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 07:31:45 GMT Subject: hams on classiccmp Message-ID: <20090116.233145.17072.0@webmail06.vgs.untd.com> -- Marvin Johnston wrote: >> Wonder who else? > >I'm VERY active with ARDF (Amateur Radio Direction Finding.) Check >out the >www.homingin.com So. Cal results and the US ARDF team to give you an >idea. I got >my extra only so I didn't have to worry about the frequency when >putting on 80M >hunts. > >Marvin, KE6HTS Wow, an EXTRA w/o the obligatory vanity call (or at least the usual 1x2 or 2X1). That's pretty rare . . . . ____________________________________________________________ Want to put your personal touch on your home? Click for home improvement ideas and tips. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw2eRIRLNOMG999LUr8KQHga28kaOurA7AI2m4eKiq012WASS/ From IanK at vulcan.com Sat Jan 17 01:33:05 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 23:33:05 -0800 Subject: Printer ribbons Message-ID: When I acquired my PDP-11/34, I also received a Centronics 503 printer, along with an entire case of ribbons for said printer. They have a part number of 63002293-5001. It's a black nylon ribbon on two spools. These are NOS. I haven't been able to identify anything that uses them - and I mean anything, because I can't find anything on the Web about the Centronics 503, either. Does anyone have any leads on this? I'd like to find that these ribbons are worth something to someone, because I'll never use more than a few in my lifetime but I don't want to just trash them. Thanks -- Ian From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Jan 17 02:05:28 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 03:05:28 -0500 Subject: Hams (was Re: thinking of selling my PDP-11/23+) In-Reply-To: <497172B3.5000906@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <49717091.6020600@jbrain.com> <497172B3.5000906@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 12:54 AM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > Jim Brain wrote: > >> Hey, Cedar Rapids, IA is frigid today, and my family wants to know how >> cold the bottom of the world is, according to Ethan's .signature, so I told >> them I'd check, but nothing in your .sig. > > So cold ... the temp froze to Ethan's server. > Ethan may still be in the US now. I am indeed in the US, so I don't run the .sig program that taps the NPX WX. It happened to be approx -12F in Central Ohio last night and -14F at South Pole FWIW. -ethan From chrise at pobox.com Fri Jan 16 09:19:59 2009 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 09:19:59 -0600 Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: <1232046209.6127.32.camel@elric> References: <200901141506.43879.pat@computer-refuge.org> <1232046209.6127.32.camel@elric> Message-ID: <20090116151959.GA31745@n0jcf.net> On Thursday (01/15/2009 at 07:03PM +0000), Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: > Of course, if you're in one of these funny 110V countries, that's only > 11kW in which case my electric shower will eat most of that. Wow... an electric shower. Around here we just have electric chairs. -- Chris Elmquist mailto:chrise at pobox.com From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Jan 16 16:31:45 2009 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 22:31:45 -0000 Subject: ebay idiots In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001601c9782a$3815eb90$a841c2b0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> I had an interesting episode recently. I was interested in an item that a surplus trader had, in fact he had 3 of them. The items were being offered as Buy It Now with free shipping in the US. I asked what he would charge to ship to the UK, the response was $30 *each* on top of the Buy It Now price which obviously must have already included an allowance for shipping, with no apparent option even to combine the shipping. When I said that the total was too much for me he invited me to suggest what I was prepared to pay. I told him, also saying that I suspected he would find my offer a bit low, but I thought it might be a point at which to start a negotiation. He responded with insults. Needless to say I will be avoiding that trader in the future. Rob From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Jan 16 17:14:40 2009 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 18:14:40 -0500 Subject: DC319 DLARTs and T11s (was T-11 ....) Message-ID: <0KDL004JG785G0F3@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: DC319 DLARTs and T11s (was T-11 ....) > From: "Bob Armstrong" > Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 07:25:17 -0800 > To: > >>A while ago, Choctaw Bob ]bob099 at centurytel.net] wrote: >> >> [Schematic of Peter McCollum's hand built T11 SBC] >> Schematic here http://www.geocities.com/saipan59/dec/t11.jpg > > I just got around to looking at this (sorry - been busy :-) and while it's >nice and simple, it uses a 6850 UART for the console. It's easy enough to >interface the 6850 (or any other modern UART for that matter) to the T11 >bus, but it's not going to be even remotely PDP-11 compatible. If you want >to have any hope of ever running any real PDP-11 software, you're going to >need a DL11/KL11 compatible console interface. DLARTs are hard o find. I have a dozen t11s and one DLART. > For the T11 that means you also want a DC319AA DLART (a "DL-11 compatible >UART chip") chip, and after looking around those seem to be far more >difficult to come by than the DCT11 CPU chips. Does anybody have a pile of >DC319 chips handy, or know where they can be found? Unlike the T11 chips, >which can be harvested from a lot of fairly common and not very valuable DEC >boards (e.g. RQDX3s), I don't know of any good donor for DLARTs. There are >a couple on my FALCON SBC-11/21 board, but I'm hardly willing to take it >apart for this project :-) Actually a 6402 (two or three are better) and the logic to do a ful DL isn't bad. With at least two then you can do a Tu58/TU58sim as a disk and have a real bootable 11. You also want at least 28KW of ram (2 32kx8 rams will do it) and TUboot in a small eprom mapped at boot. > If you can't find a DC319, then the alternative is to build a DL11 >compatible interface using a standard UART like the 6402 and a handful of >discrete logic. I think the minimum you could get away with would be to >implement the DONE and INTERRUPT ENABLE bits (bits 6 and 7) for both the >receiver and transmitter CSR, and then to implement the standard vectors at >60/64. Oh, and of course the data registers for the transmitter and >receiver. > > The KL11 also implements a MAINTENANCE bit, a BUSY bit, and a READER >ENABLE bit, but a) we have no reader, b) I doubt (I'm hoping) much software >ever looks at the BUSY bit, and c) probably nothing uses the MAINTENANCE bit >except the diagnostics. Try to find the logic for DLV11J as that has basic serial. You do not need all the bits but most are handy and you also need to generate a valid vector for console (60Q) and also for any other port. > ISTR that DEC had an "official" standard written down for exactly what was >required of a DL-11 compatible serial interface, but I can't find it >anywhere. Microcomputer handbook. I'll try to find something more. Allison >Bob > From leaknoil at comcast.net Fri Jan 16 18:13:54 2009 From: leaknoil at comcast.net (Pete) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 16:13:54 -0800 Subject: ecycling In-Reply-To: <4970D394.20601@bitsavers.org> References: <4970D394.20601@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <497122C2.9050601@comcast.net> Oh the good ol' days of driving over to San Jose and rummaging through the surplus stores. RA electronics, Weird Stuff, Action Computers, and whatever the two off Lawrence were. One across from Fry's and the other up a ways towards 280. I can't believe I don't remember the names anymore Weird Stuff and Action Computers were always the over priced surplus stores I avoided back then. Now they are all that's left. Probably because they could still afford to pay rent when the boom happened. I admit to selling half the stuff I found back then but, it was on this thing called the Usenet you really weren't supposed to be selling things on. So many 'e-recycers' now. Basically everyone with a pick-up truck is calling themselves electronic recyclers now and posting flyers all over. Al Kossow wrote: > > There seems to be a recent trend on ebay for places that collect > > electronics for recycling to have someone who picks out the "old" items > > for sale on ebay. > > They have been cherry picking the incoming stuff for years. The big > one around > here is Computer Recycling Center, next to Weird Stuff (who is in the > same biz). > > Most modern PC stuff they get goes to schools, they eBay the stuff > they can get > money from, and put the dregs up for sale on Saturday mornings. > Feeding frenzy > at 9:00 AM when they open. I wander by every once and a while to pick > up cheap > PCI cards, or the odd bit of old software no one else wants. > > Most of the store front junk stores around here disappeared as > manufacturing left > the valley, and the bottom feeders from bankruptcies go directly to > eBay now with > no retail presence. > > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Jan 16 23:25:07 2009 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 00:25:07 -0500 Subject: Hams (was Re: thinking of selling my PDP-11/23+) Message-ID: <0KDL00FYDODIL5K9@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Hams (was Re: thinking of selling my PDP-11/23+) > From: "Ethan Dicks" > Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 00:15:05 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 9:25 PM, Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ > wrote: >> On Fri, 2009-01-16 at 15:04 -0200, Alexandre Souza wrote: >> >>> Pu1BZZ Alexandre :) >> >> Wait, wait, you're another radio amateur? Not surprised there's a >> crossover with classic computing. Wonder who else? > >N8TVD > >Technician _with_ code (not that it matters anymore) > >-ethan We are everywhere... KB1GMX Extra I like my old tech call. Allison From nico at Farumdata.dk Sat Jan 17 03:33:11 2009 From: nico at Farumdata.dk (nico) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 10:33:11 +0100 Subject: hams on classiccmp Message-ID: <200901171033.AA284164486@Farumdata.dk> >At 10:24 PM 1/16/2009 -0500, you wrote: >>On Friday 16 January 2009, Al Kossow wrote: >> > > Wonder who else? >> > >> > probably lots.. >> > Nico in Denmark, licensed since 1972 or so. OZ 1 BMC From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sat Jan 17 04:33:12 2009 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 11:33:12 +0100 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20090116215533.022164f8@localhost> References: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> <5.1.0.14.2.20090116215533.022164f8@localhost> Message-ID: HAM activities are down to a minimum at the moment for me here in The Netherlands. I have a license since 1974 or 1975 (can't remember, hi). When the code requirement was dropped, I would automatically get a full license (active on all bands allowed), but it would have been under my call PE1CKF. I was so vain that I wanted to have a call that would reflect that I have the code license. I learned the morse code just in time for the last exam taken by the authorities here! Without passing the morse exam I could never get the prefix PA8. ... so now I have the call PA8PDP :-) Obligatory: I try to combine the PDP-11 (and pdp8) stuff with my HAM activities soon. I am building a pdp8/i in FPGA (with Vince), and plan on writing an RTTY program for the -8 and the -11. However, MixW is the program running on the PC (also soon ...). My aim is to become active on HF using my RACAL stuff, although I also own an FT-767GX (HF, 6, 2, and 70). 73, - Henk. From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sat Jan 17 06:01:34 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 10:01:34 -0200 Subject: Hams (was Re: thinking of selling my PDP-11/23+) References: <49717091.6020600@jbrain.com> <497172B3.5000906@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <014301c9789b$7463c790$46fea8c0@DeskJara> > It happened to be approx -12F in Central Ohio last night and -14F at > South Pole FWIW. I'd trade a classic brazilian computer for some of this cold here in Brazil :o) From brad at heeltoe.com Sat Jan 17 06:11:07 2009 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 07:11:07 -0500 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: References: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> , <49715F3E.30203@radiorobots.com> Message-ID: <25320.1232194267@mini> Ian King wrote: >I just got a VAX-11/780-5 up with VMS on TCP/IP.... very nice. Can you describe how it went? Was the 780 previously in moth balls? -brad From brad at heeltoe.com Sat Jan 17 06:35:19 2009 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 07:35:19 -0500 Subject: xenix redux (or, how to bring back a dead xenix pc) Message-ID: <26194.1232195719@mini> This is a short story about getting data off an old xenix pc. delete now if that is not interesting :-) A while ago friend brought over an old pc which was dead. It's a 386 Compaq, very old. It had been running xenix and it was never turned off but one day the power failed. When the power came back it would not boot - the clock battery was long since dead and had lost it's disk setup. Inside is a 386 with about 4mb of ram and a Compaq ESDI controller. And a dead Dallas clock chip. I dremel tooled the Dallas clock chip and soldered in a new battery pack. I got a floppy disk image to reset the bios from someone here (thanks!) But despite many tries it would not boot. The diag program would not let me set the disk parameters exactly the way they needed to be set. most frustrating. So, I yanked the controller (ESDI), changed the jumpers and put it in another old pc which had linux on it. I booted linux and gave it the disk geometry via the command line ("hdc=1224,15,34") Once in linux I made an image of the disk using dd. It turns out that the "conv=" option is very important. I used "conv=noerrors,notrunc,sync". Originally I use "conv=noerrors" and the resulting image was bad because the disk had errors. dd conv=noerrors,notrunc,sync if=/dev/hdc of=disk.img I then put the resulting disk image on another linux box and wrote a tiny C program to search for valid sysv super blocks. It found 3. I then used "dd" to copy part of the image, with an offset (the start of the first superblock), to a new file. dd if=disk.img of=d4 bs=512 skip=2040 With that I had a valid sysv file system in a single file. I then mounted the new file using the loopback option: mount d4 /mnt -t sysv -o loop and viola! I could see all the files and could make a tar file of the root directory. Flush with success (don't you just love it when things actually work? :-) I decided to try and boot it. I used a recent copy of qemu and told it the geometry of the original disk qemu -hdachs 1000,15,34 -boot c -hda disk.img Much to my shock, it booted xenix, cleaned the file system and gave me a login prompt. Now I just have to clean up the mess in my office :-) Man that thing had a lot of dust and dirt in it. -brad From db at db.net Sat Jan 17 07:20:35 2009 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 08:20:35 -0500 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: References: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> <5.1.0.14.2.20090116215533.022164f8@localhost> Message-ID: <20090117132035.GA22733@night.db.net> On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 11:33:12AM +0100, Henk Gooijen wrote: > > HAM activities are down to a minimum at the moment for me here > in The Netherlands. I have a license since 1974 or 1975 (can't ... > Obligatory: I try to combine the PDP-11 (and pdp8) stuff with my > HAM activities soon. I am building a pdp8/i in FPGA (with Vince), We had a PDP-8 given to us by the engineering department for our club station at university. We used it for sending rtty both 5 level and 8 level years ago. > and plan on writing an RTTY program for the -8 and the -11. I got to write one for the -8, even getting it to read rad50 files off of the OS/8 fs. ;-) I wish I had have kept a paper tape of that. Ham and computers just go together so well. > However, MixW is the program running on the PC (also soon ...). fldigi on FreeBSD here. ;-) - 73 Diane VA3DB -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Sat Jan 17 07:44:06 2009 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 13:44:06 +0000 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> References: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I am yet another ex G8NND. One day I might take up the license again, main activity was 10GHz ATV and back chat on 2M. Dave Caroline (archivist) From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sat Jan 17 07:56:02 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 13:56:02 +0000 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: References: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1232200562.6127.132.camel@elric> On Sat, 2009-01-17 at 13:44 +0000, Dave Caroline wrote: > I am yet another ex G8NND. One day I might take up the license again, > main activity was 10GHz ATV and back chat on 2M. The UK Foundation licence is 20 quid, and doesn't expire. You need to validate your licence on the Ofcom site periodically but that bit is free. You know you want to. Gordon From keithvz at verizon.net Sat Jan 17 09:02:13 2009 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 10:02:13 -0500 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <1232200562.6127.132.camel@elric> References: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> <1232200562.6127.132.camel@elric> Message-ID: <4971F2F5.5050206@verizon.net> I'm KB3PSB. Ham since '07, been playing with radio stuff for probably 10 years. And while we are talking about the cold. It's a brisk -2F out this morning with windchills taking us to -10F. A quick scan of the weather.com temp map, and it looks like Pittsburgh "Wins" the cold race right now, at least in the US. Keith From david_comley at yahoo.com Sat Jan 17 09:04:41 2009 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 07:04:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <06cb01c97850$e3597fa0$aa0c7ee0$@com> Message-ID: <447855.67190.qm@web30606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > > Wonder who else? KB3HOW in Holicong, PA. Come to think of it, I don't post much these days and I don't get on HF much either. -Dave From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Sat Jan 17 09:49:38 2009 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 09:49:38 -0600 Subject: Hams (was Re: thinking of selling my PDP-11/23+) In-Reply-To: <200901170544.n0H5iAPm027404@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901170544.n0H5iAPm027404@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <6bv3n41d5hu81kuct0dk3q8enjnnf44a18@4ax.com> On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 23:44:19 -0600 (CST), you wrote: >>>> Pu1BZZ Alexandre :) >>> >>> Wait, wait, you're another radio amateur? Not surprised there's a >>> crossover with classic computing. Wonder who else? WB3JOK since 1976... now /0 in Missouri. Yes, 75m is a belchfartfest sometimes worse than CB, but there are plenty of other HF bands as the cycle starts to recover... also still some interesting nets on 40m. Check out the 72 Chew (www.ragchewers.net) on 7272 KHz :) 73 -Charles (guess no one wants the 11/23, maybe I'll try fleabay :) From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Jan 17 09:54:07 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 07:54:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: xenix redux (or, how to bring back a dead xenix pc) In-Reply-To: <26194.1232195719@mini> from Brad Parker at "Jan 17, 9 07:35:19 am" Message-ID: <200901171554.n0HFs7JO010040@floodgap.com> > I then put the resulting disk image on another linux box and wrote a > tiny C program to search for valid sysv super blocks. Mind posting the source? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- BOND THEME NOW PLAYING: "Die Another Day" ---------------------------------- From brad at heeltoe.com Sat Jan 17 10:13:59 2009 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 11:13:59 -0500 Subject: xenix redux (or, how to bring back a dead xenix pc) In-Reply-To: <200901171554.n0HFs7JO010040@floodgap.com> References: <200901171554.n0HFs7JO010040@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <3712.1232208839@mini> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> I then put the resulting disk image on another linux box and wrote a >> tiny C program to search for valid sysv super blocks. > >Mind posting the source? no problem. it was just a quick hack. --- cut here --- #include #include #define __packed2__ __attribute__ ((packed, aligned(2))) typedef unsigned short u16; typedef unsigned int u32; typedef short s16; typedef int s32; typedef u16 sysv_ino_t; typedef u32 sysv_zone_t; /* Xenix super-block data on disk */ #define XENIX_NICINOD 100 /* number of inode cache entries */ #define XENIX_NICFREE 100 /* number of free block list chunk entries */ struct xenix_super_block { u16 s_isize; /* index of first data zone */ u32 s_fsize __packed2__; /* total number of zones of this fs */ /* the start of the free block list: */ u16 s_nfree; /* number of free blocks in s_free, <= XENIX_NICFREE */ u32 s_free[XENIX_NICFREE]; /* first free block list chunk */ /* the cache of free inodes: */ u16 s_ninode; /* number of free inodes in s_inode, <= XENIX_NICINOD */ sysv_ino_t s_inode[XENIX_NICINOD]; /* some free inodes */ /* locks, not used by Linux: */ char s_flock; /* lock during free block list manipulation */ char s_ilock; /* lock during inode cache manipulation */ char s_fmod; /* super-block modified flag */ char s_ronly; /* flag whether fs is mounted read-only */ u32 s_time __packed2__; /* time of last super block update */ u32 s_tfree __packed2__; /* total number of free zones */ u16 s_tinode; /* total number of free inodes */ s16 s_dinfo[4]; /* device information ?? */ char s_fname[6]; /* file system volume name */ char s_fpack[6]; /* file system pack name */ char s_clean; /* set to 0x46 when filesystem is properly unmounted */ char s_fill[371]; s32 s_magic; /* version of file system */ s32 s_type; /* type of file system: 1 for 512 byte blocks 2 for 1024 byte blocks 3 for 2048 byte blocks */ }; char buffer[4096]; main() { int fd, ret; struct xenix_super_block *sb; int offset; fd = open("d1", O_RDONLY); sb = (struct xenix_super_block *)buffer; printf("size %d\n", sizeof(struct xenix_super_block)); //printf("offset %d\n", ((char *)&sb->s_magic) - buffer); offset = 0; while (1) { ret = read(fd, buffer, 1024); if (ret != 1024) break; if (sb->s_magic == 0x002b5544 && (sb->s_type >= 1 && sb->s_type <= 3)) { printf("offset %d 0x%x\n", offset, offset); printf("block %d\n", (offset-1024) / 512); printf("s_magic %08x\n", sb->s_magic); printf("s_type %08x\n", sb->s_type); printf("s_nfree %04x\n", sb->s_nfree); } offset += 1024; } } From dundas at caltech.edu Sat Jan 17 10:16:34 2009 From: dundas at caltech.edu (dundas at caltech.edu) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 08:16:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> References: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <51014.75.24.249.248.1232208994.squirrel@webmail.caltech.edu> > > Wonder who else? > > probably lots.. KC6UDF John From brad at heeltoe.com Sat Jan 17 10:19:58 2009 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 11:19:58 -0500 Subject: Japanese pc emulators Message-ID: <4071.1232209198@mini> I found this home page while looking at qemu for windows. Looks like he's done a lot of work on Japanese pc emulators. Perhaps this is old news. http://homepage3.nifty.com/takeda-toshiya -brad From k0vj at arrl.net Sat Jan 17 11:02:56 2009 From: k0vj at arrl.net (Rick Kaumeier) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 10:02:56 -0700 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <200901170544.n0H5iAPn027404@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901170544.n0H5iAPn027404@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200901171002.57115.k0vj@arrl.net> Al Kossow wrote: > Wonder who else? > > probably lots.. > I'm K0VJ and have lurked on classiccmp for many years. My ham interests run mostly to QRP CW, building compact homebrew CW rigs, and restoring classic tube gear. Got my first license (N2EBX) back in early 1983 when the exams were still being given by the FCC. I've seen a lot of changes, had a lot of fun, and am currently not-so-patiently waiting for the sunspots to come back! From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Jan 17 11:23:34 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 12:23:34 -0500 Subject: Hams (was Re: thinking of selling my PDP-11/23+) In-Reply-To: References: <49717091.6020600@jbrain.com> <497172B3.5000906@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <49721416.9010201@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 12:54 AM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca > wrote: >> Jim Brain wrote: >> >>> Hey, Cedar Rapids, IA is frigid today, and my family wants to know how >>> cold the bottom of the world is, according to Ethan's .signature, so I told >>> them I'd check, but nothing in your .sig. >> So cold ... the temp froze to Ethan's server. >> Ethan may still be in the US now. > > I am indeed in the US, so I don't run the .sig program that taps the NPX WX. > > It happened to be approx -12F in Central Ohio last night and -14F at > South Pole FWIW. But it's the depths of winter in Ohio and the height of summer at the South Pole, right? Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Jan 17 11:28:55 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 12:28:55 -0500 Subject: Hams (was Re: thinking of selling my PDP-11/23+) In-Reply-To: <6bv3n41d5hu81kuct0dk3q8enjnnf44a18@4ax.com> References: <200901170544.n0H5iAPm027404@dewey.classiccmp.org> <6bv3n41d5hu81kuct0dk3q8enjnnf44a18@4ax.com> Message-ID: <49721557.5060605@gmail.com> Charles wrote: > 73 > -Charles > (guess no one wants the 11/23, maybe I'll try fleabay :) I'd love to have it, but it's a bit too far. Peace... Sridhar From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Jan 17 11:29:02 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 10:29:02 -0700 Subject: Hams (was Re: thinking of selling my PDP-11/23+) In-Reply-To: <014301c9789b$7463c790$46fea8c0@DeskJara> References: <49717091.6020600@jbrain.com> <497172B3.5000906@jetnet.ab.ca> <014301c9789b$7463c790$46fea8c0@DeskJara> Message-ID: <4972155E.1010001@jetnet.ab.ca> Alexandre Souza wrote: >> It happened to be approx -12F in Central Ohio last night and -14F at >> South Pole FWIW. > > I'd trade a classic brazilian computer for some of this cold here in > Brazil :o) How about floating a iceburg down south for you. :) From IanK at vulcan.com Sat Jan 17 12:55:32 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 10:55:32 -0800 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <25320.1232194267@mini> References: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> , <49715F3E.30203@radiorobots.com> , <25320.1232194267@mini> Message-ID: This machine was one of a pair bought from a collector who bought from a collector who bought from...? It was interesting noting the differences between the two: for instance, on one the black foam was in fairly good shape (replaced it anyway), but on the other it was falling off in chunks. Both seemed in good mechanical condition. The next step was to ensure electrical integrity. So I replaced every electrolytic capacitor of consequence in the switching power supplies - five in one machine, six in the other - plus the LSI-11 boot machine and RX01 boot floppy. This was expensive! We used Mouser as our source because their stock and prices were the best we found among the established vendors. Even so, there were a couple of instances where it just wasn't possible to buy a large electrolytic with the exact same form factor as the original - the newer ones were smaller! Curse progress.... In one instance (the main filters in the switchers), it was necessary to ever-so-slightly reshape the holes on the circuit board so the new capacitor's posts would line up. Of course, I visually inspected each and every board in both machines to look for heat marks, obviously damaged bypass caps and the like. There were several instances of tin-plated IC sockets, so I did the rock-and-reseat maneuver just as a precaution. After all of this, we carefully brought up the machine. We had a challenge because 120V three phase doesn't seem to be usual practice in US wiring - we had 240V three phase, but that obviously wasn't going to do us any good! Carefully looking through the power distribution unit's engineering drawings, it became clear that DEC used three-phase simply to balance the current load among the legs - in fact, everything runs on 120V. So we used equal care in reviewing the wiring of the warehouse where we keep these machines and found three outlets that were (a) on the same side of the 240V mains and (b) not sharing a breaker and circuit. Those were connected to a three-phase outlet, the VAXen were plugged in and voila! NOTE: we have a team member experienced with commercial power circuits. Don't try this at home - or if you do, be very very careful and be certain that, from any of the three live blades to another, you don't have more than 120V. Now that the machines would power up, I scoped all the power supply voltages to ensure they were really DC, i.e. that I hadn't missed an important filter cap anywhere. All good, so I tried booting from the floppies we got with the machines. I was able to get the basic console to boot - hooray! - but was unable to get the microdiagnostics to run. We had agreed that successful execution of the low-level diagnostics was a precursor to any attempt to install the OS, so this was a roadblock. I learned a lot about the interaction between the LSI-11 boot device and the VAX-11 CPU. The Console Interface Board actually 'lives' in the LSI-11's memory space - it holds the boot ROMS, for instance. So if you remove the LSI-11 to test it, you can get an ODT prompt but that's it. There is a channel between LSI-11 I/O space and the VAX-11, too, and the two machines communicate during normal operation, which is how the LSI-11 serves as the console device. One thing that seemed odd was that when I tried to execute the microdiagnostics, the LSI-11 would halt at 070000. I finally found a listing for the microdiagnostic that showed a macro statement basing the program at that address - but after poking around a bit, I found out it was loading at 071000. I tried starting from there - no go. What I finally figured out was truly bizarre. THERE IS MORE THAN ONE VERSION OF THE MICRODIAGNOSTICS FOR A /785, and the floppy and program names are the same. The only thing that distinguishes them is the 'stock number', i.e. AS-A123 blahblah, and I never found a shred of documentation that associated one or another with a given machine or serial number series. I infer that DEC assumed you'd get your set of floppies when you bought your machine, duplicate them as needed for security, and that was that. They never anticipated people like us, doing 'archaeology' on obsolete machines.... After some investigation, I discovered a key characteristic: the version that didn't work with my machine had a zero-filled first block in the program files, and the ones that did work had some code in that block, beginning with a JMP instruction. We discovered the repository maintained by trailing-edge.com and perused those, together with the EVNDX file from bitsavers.org, and eventually found a full set of diagnostic disk images. We transferred those onto physical floppies using a PDP-11/03 and the TU-58 emulator program I found through Will Kranz's website. Now we were running microdiagnostics - but failing some. I started focusing on one of the two machines because it seemed in better health, but the memory test chains were failing. Of course, they identified themselves on the console as testing MS780A through -D, and we had a -H in each of our machines. It seemed quite possible, from the errors I was seeing, that it was that simple - but I still wanted a good memory diagnostic run. Searching some more, I found that there was a floppy designated RX3 that claimed to be a microdiagnostic diskette - the documentation for the microdiagnostics (from bitsavers.org) pointed you at RX1 and RX2. My study of the microdiagnostic system told me that it was smart enough to allow for extension, because it would look for files with names of a given structure when you told it to proceed. So I dropped in RX3, gave the DIAGNOSE instruction, and wonder of wonders: a memory diagnostic for MS780E-H began running! We passed that one just fine, and began working toward getting the OS installed. We had CDROM media for OpenVMS 6.2, the latest version certified for the VAX-11/785 - but of course, we didn't have any sort of adapter to talk to a CDROM drive. But we'd earlier made a judgement call to use the CI interface for the system device, and had ordered an HSJ50 setup from PSDS in Woodinville, Washington - really cool guys, by the way, I'd recommend them anytime. I anticipated we'd hook a CDROM into one of the SCSI ports, a shelf of RZ drives into another and we'd be off. However, I did not count on the embarrassment of riches we received from PSDS. They fully populated the HSJ with six shelves and configured RAID arrays up and down! It was great, but it didn't leave anywhere to plug in my CDROM. I played with it for a while, loathe to disassemble it, and finally developed a solution. One of the RAID arrays was 'short', with four drives instead of six; the other two were hot spares. So I pulled one of the spares, plugged it into a StorageWorks shelf on one of the MicroVAX 3100s in my personal collection, and copied the installation media onto it with BACKUP ddcu:/IMAGE/NOALIAS target:. I plugged that back into the HSJ, set it up as a single disk unit, and it booted into the install! I found that I actually needed TWO of these: one was the boot device AND target, the other served as the source media under the install program. When I finally installed the OS onto one of the RAID arrays, I used the same BACKUP command to install an image of the media, booted it, and used the single-disk copy as the source media. One diversion that is worth noting: I tried using the floppy based standalone backup floppies we're gotten with the machines. While I could go through the series, I could not get them to recognize the CI-based drives. Given all my other challenges with versions, I suspected this was just another such issue. I finally decided to simply use the CIBOO.CMD file on the boot floppy. However, I needed the 'station number' and 'device number' for the boot device. Station number was easy: our HSJ dual-redundant controller was set up as IDs 0 and 1, so I used the value 0x100 in R2. But device number had me stumped for a bit. I finally figured out the key: the unit numbers defined in the HSJ's configuration correspond to the device numbers! So 'D6' in the HSJ menu - what I'd called the single-disk unit with the install media copy - translated to 0x6 in R3, and things booted fine. Now we were cooking with gas. I had a valid VMS license but not a UCX license. We also had MultiNet media, but licensing looked like it was going to be a challenge. So I tried CMUIP. It installed with no problems, but wasn't finding an Ethernet adapter. I did some troubleshooting on this: the adapter was, of course, housed in a Unibus expansion cabinet, a DELUA. We had a spare and I tried that - no joy. The LEDs on the DELUA did not change with boot, but all stayed on. I scratched my head... ...and noticed that we had two Unibus cabinets, since I wasn't paying any attention to the other machine. I swapped them around - non-trivial, but not too difficult - and the Ethernet card fired up just the way Ken intended. Now CMUIP found the card and everyone was happy! I suspect the problem with the other cabinet is cabling - you know how ribbon cables can be. After a bit of scrabbling around in the wire closet, we had live Ethernet, plugged in a static IP address, and left the room - to go to another room and telnet into the VAX-11. Happy Dance! Overall, I'd have to say that the biggest challenge was overcoming the shortcomings in extant documentation. As I said, I don't think DEC ever anticipated someone like me would be trying to piece things together years after the machine was EOL. When diagnostics fail, the course of action is either 'replace the device' or 'call field service' - perfectly reasonable for the era, but not always a solution today. I also found that some key diagnostics were not in evidence - or rather, appropriate versions of them. For instance, I found a copy of the Ethernet diagnostics, but they would not run under my version of the Diagnostic Supervisor. It's quite possible there's another version of the DS that would run them, but I don't know if it will run on my hardware - perhaps one of these days when I'm really bored I'll find out, but for now I'm just happy to have a living VAX-11. -- isk ________________________________________ From: brad at heeltoe.com [brad at heeltoe.com] Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2009 4:11 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; Ian King Subject: Re: hams on classiccmp Ian King wrote: >I just got a VAX-11/780-5 up with VMS on TCP/IP.... very nice. Can you describe how it went? Was the 780 previously in moth balls? -brad From wulfcub at gmail.com Sat Jan 17 12:59:02 2009 From: wulfcub at gmail.com (Wulf daMan) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 12:59:02 -0600 Subject: Hams (was Re: thinking of selling my PDP-11/23+) In-Reply-To: <49717091.6020600@jbrain.com> References: <49717091.6020600@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 11:45 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >> N8TVD >> >> Technician _with_ code (not that it matters anymore) >> >> -ethan >> > > Hehe, we could all get into the code versus no-code debate... What fun! > > /me has a lowly Tech license, so I bow at your greatness... (or something > like that). N0WHG, since 1995. Got my ham license before my drivers license. Completely inactive on the air, as my rig is hosed and waiting for me to find another round tuit. As for code/no-code, I'm no-code, but I was more than a bit unhappy when they dropped the code requirements. On the classic comp side, I'm still working with a PDP11/23 at work, and have a uVAX II sitting in my bedroom. Shaun -- "If you live to be a hundred, I want to live to be a hundred minus one day, so I never have to live without you." -- Winnie The Pooh http://www.lungs4amber.org From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sat Jan 17 13:48:08 2009 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 20:48:08 +0100 (CET) Subject: Japanese pc emulators In-Reply-To: <4071.1232209198@mini> References: <4071.1232209198@mini> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Jan 2009, Brad Parker wrote: > I found this home page while looking at qemu for windows. Looks like > he's done a lot of work on Japanese pc emulators. Perhaps this is old > news. > > http://homepage3.nifty.com/takeda-toshiya Very nice, I have a NEC PC-100 and a Fujitsu FMR-60. But the biggest problem apart from the Japanese keyboard and display is to find software for these machines. And an emulator without any software is nice, but not very useful... Christian From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 17 13:59:39 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 11:59:39 -0800 Subject: Japanese pc emulators In-Reply-To: References: <4071.1232209198@mini>, Message-ID: <4971C82B.4198.294B2F82@cclist.sydex.com> On Sat, 17 Jan 2009, Brad Parker wrote: > I found this home page while looking at qemu for windows. Looks like > he's done a lot of work on Japanese pc emulators. Perhaps this is old > news. > http://homepage3.nifty.com/takeda-toshiya About the coolest variation on this is a NEC PC-9801 emulator running on an iPod Touch: http://blog.gamersweb.it/post/630878/IPod+Touch%3A+PC-9801+Emulator Cheers, Chuck From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sat Jan 17 14:01:20 2009 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 21:01:20 +0100 (CET) Subject: xenix redux (or, how to bring back a dead xenix pc) In-Reply-To: <26194.1232195719@mini> References: <26194.1232195719@mini> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Jan 2009, Brad Parker wrote: > Inside is a 386 with about 4mb of ram and a Compaq ESDI controller. And > a dead Dallas clock chip. > > I dremel tooled the Dallas clock chip and soldered in a new battery > pack. I got a floppy disk image to reset the bios from someone here > (thanks!) But despite many tries it would not boot. The diag program > would not let me set the disk parameters exactly the way they needed to > be set. most frustrating. Well, ESDI controller are so-called intelligent controllers. You can't (and must not) set the drive parameters in the BIOS. Instead (at least with the WD or Adaptec ESDI controllers) you have to select drive type 1. The controller knows the drive parameters as they are read from the drive. And the controller BIOS doesn't care about the BIOS drive geometry, it used the values from the drive. What exactly is the problem with booting? Any special error codes? Don't forget to disable the onboard hard disk interface, if available. If the board has e.g. an onboard IDE interface, a BIOS reset would most probably enable it, and the resources would collide with those of the ESDI controller. > I then put the resulting disk image on another linux box and wrote a > tiny C program to search for valid sysv super blocks. It found 3. I > then used "dd" to copy part of the image, with an offset (the start of > the first superblock), to a new file. Or you could just write the disk image back e.g. to an IDE disk and put that into the old PC. > and viola! I could see all the files and could make a tar file of ^^^^^ That's a music instrument, I think you meant voil? ;-) Christian From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 17 13:23:34 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 19:23:34 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ebay idiots In-Reply-To: <001601c9782a$3815eb90$a841c2b0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> from "Robert Jarratt" at Jan 16, 9 10:31:45 pm Message-ID: > > I had an interesting episode recently. I was interested in an item that a > surplus trader had, in fact he had 3 of them. The items were being offered > as Buy It Now with free shipping in the US. I asked what he would charge to > ship to the UK, the response was $30 *each* on top of the Buy It Now price > which obviously must have already included an allowance for shipping, with > no apparent option even to combine the shipping. Without knowing what the items are, there's no way I could know how much it would actually cost to ship them to the UK. It may be that $30 is a reasonable _difference_ betweeen the UK and US shipping costs. The things that annoy me are sellers who have _ridiculously_ high shipping costs. There's a guy who's got some manuals for sale -- fairly thin manuals, no binders or anything like that. His shipping charge to the UK is something over \pounds 60.00. Now, I relaise that filling in tyhe customs form for overseas shipping takes time, and that it's reasonable to have to pay for that. But, darn it, that charge is excessive compared to the shipping charged by other sellers for much larger/heavier/more delicate items. As with others here, I get annoyed when things are not packed adeguately and arrive damaged. I would be happy to pay more for proper packing on a rare device. And I wish sellers would (a) get in touch if there's a delay in sending out the package, and (b) would actually let me know when they send it. If I am not in to receive the parcel, it gets taken back to the post office or sorting office then (a) I have to go and collect it and (b) it appears such packages are much more likely to be damaged. So I want to be in when it's delivered. On the other hand, I don't want to have to wait around for a parcel that's not even been sent yet. A short e-mail from the seller 'I sent it on $date' would be much appreciated. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 17 13:42:28 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 19:42:28 +0000 (GMT) Subject: thinking of selling my PDP-11/23+ In-Reply-To: <1232159131.6127.103.camel@elric> from "Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ" at Jan 17, 9 02:25:31 am Message-ID: > > On Fri, 2009-01-16 at 15:04 -0200, Alexandre Souza wrote: > > > Pu1BZZ Alexandre :) > > Wait, wait, you're another radio amateur? Not surprised there's a > crossover with classic computing. Wonder who else? Fred van Kempen Me for another :-). Call G1XPF. That was a Class B license years ago -- for the non-UK people here, 'Class B' was a no-code license which let you transmit on 6m and above, all modes. But in the great reshuffle of licenses about 6 years ago, it bacame a 'Full' license (basically the code requirement was removed)... I'm not active, but I keep the license going just in case :-) -tony From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Jan 17 14:06:40 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 15:06:40 -0500 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: References: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> <25320.1232194267@mini> Message-ID: <200901171506.40639.pat@computer-refuge.org> > From: brad at heeltoe.com [brad at heeltoe.com] > > Ian King wrote: > >I just got a VAX-11/780-5 up with VMS on TCP/IP.... > > very nice. Can you describe how it went? Was the 780 previously > in moth balls? > > -brad On Saturday 17 January 2009, Ian King wrote: > This machine was one of a pair bought from a collector who bought > from a collector who bought from...? It was interesting noting the > differences between the two: for instance, on one the black foam was > in fairly good shape (replaced it anyway), but on the other it was > falling off in chunks. Both seemed in good mechanical condition. > The next step was to ensure electrical integrity. FWIW, if you can be sure you're going to operate the machine in a relatively clean environment (eg, no carpeting or other things to generate dust), I'd forgo the filter foam, as all it'll do is crumble and block airflow. > So I replaced every electrolytic capacitor of consequence in the > switching power supplies - five in one machine, six in the other - > plus the LSI-11 boot machine and RX01 boot floppy. This was > expensive! This also seems unnecessary if the capacitors were still good. The 11/780 I got up and running has one bad psu (de-asserts DCOK every once in a while, and causes the machine to reboot) which may be bad capacitors, but everything else was ok, despite being stored for over 10 years. > After all of this, we carefully bro