From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Jan 1 06:38:54 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 07:38:54 -0500 Subject: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: <495BCFD2.8000105@gmail.com> References: <495AAB15.7080103@e-bbes.com> from "e.stiebler" at Dec 30, 8 04:13:25 pm, <495B5B5F.29096.188C487D@cclist.sydex.com> <495BCFD2.8000105@gmail.com> Message-ID: <495CB95E.80707@gmail.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 31 Dec 2008 at 18:52, Tony Duell wrote: >> >>> Hnag on a second. Last week yopu were all telling me that I could >>> program just about any modern microcontroller using whatever classic >>> computer I liked. Now you're telling me I have to use C (and >>> presumably have some machine that can host the C compiler). Which is >>> it? :-) >> >> Are there any uCs made that don't have an assembly language? > > That possibly depends on the definition of assembly. To me it's > something along the lines of "the lowest-level instructions that can be > fed to the CPU" (even if those instructions might be quite involved and > do multiple things), so it's hard to imagine a CPU that didn't > essentially support assembly. IBM mainframe architecture resembles this remark. Evidenced by the instructions for unpacking packed-decimal numbers, stripping off leading zeros, putting a dollar-sign in front of the whole thing, and storing the result. All in a single instruction. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Jan 1 06:42:14 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 07:42:14 -0500 Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: <495B818C.32309.19216ECD@cclist.sydex.com> References: <495BCFD2.8000105@gmail.com> from Jules Richardson at "Dec 31, 8 02:02:26 pm", <200812312127.mBVLR8PQ014734@floodgap.com> <495B818C.32309.19216ECD@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <495CBA26.5070107@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 31 Dec 2008 at 13:27, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >>> (Interesting question, though - I wonder what a CPU might look like where you >>> could just throw C source code at it, for instance :) >> Well, there *was* the AT&T Hobbit: >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AT%26T_Hobbit >> >> Not quite that, but still optimized for C, allegedly. Never worked with >> the architecture myself. > > Well, the Burroughs B5000 was purportedly an Algol machine; there > have been CPU designs to eat UCSD Pascal bytecodes and Java bytecodes > and there have been various LISP machines. But none, AFAIK, to > actually lexically parse program text input in hardware. I suppose > 1401 Autocoder might be in that league, if you consider Autocoder to > be a "language". The Timex TM100 chip does BASIC in hardware, but it doesn't parse the text itself... it requires a tokenized stream. Peace... Sridhar From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Jan 1 08:43:25 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 12:43:25 -0200 Subject: What kind of IC is this References: <495BD13B.4040604@gmail.com> Message-ID: <014a01c96c1f$6a00e7c0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> > I was worrying about my LVROM player a few weeks ago, but looking at board LD ROM? The big shiny disk? :oD This is something I'd love to see working :D I have a Laseractive with mega-drive/genesis pac, but no rom discs :( From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Jan 1 08:45:43 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 12:45:43 -0200 Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! References: <200812312127.mBVLR8PQ014734@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <016701c96c1f$d32fc900$46fea8c0@DeskJara> >> (Interesting question, though - I wonder what a CPU might look like where >> you >> could just throw C source code at it, for instance :) > Well, there *was* the AT&T Hobbit: > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AT%26T_Hobbit > Not quite that, but still optimized for C, allegedly. Never worked with > the architecture myself. AVR microcontrollers are said optimized for C, but there is an excellent assembler, the AVR Studio. From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Jan 1 08:51:04 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 12:51:04 -0200 Subject: Eo's and Hobbits (was Re: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME!) References: <200812312127.mBVLR8PQ014734@floodgap.com> <495BF187.60600@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <017701c96c20$70ffdee0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> > The Newton of course had much better handwriting recognition, so the Eo > died (to be in turn killed by Palm), but despite that, Penpoint was an > interesting OS that had the look and feel of a paper organizer (tabs, > pages, etc. as opposed to desktop GUIs which appropriately use a > "desktop" metaphor.) The newton is the best, wonderful, no-words-to-describe thing I've ever seen, but killed just by two items: No conectivity and no PDF reading. I got one fairly complete (rechargeable battery, power supply, extra stylus, cover, 4MB card, modem card) and build inside a serial connector not to use the dammed dongle I didn't have (http://www.tabajara-labs.com.br/newton/serial/index.htm). But I never got around to connect it to one of my computers, and I **WONT** leave an old PC or MAC just to play with newton. It got axed. But What a portable computer... :o( From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Jan 1 08:54:20 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 12:54:20 -0200 Subject: BBC Second Processor Tube ULA (was Re: What kind of IC is this) References: <495C1080.6070803@gmail.com> Message-ID: <01af01c96c20$e5570b10$46fea8c0@DeskJara> > The problem is that very few people have both a grasp on that knowledge > and > the ability to do the necessary electronic design - it's only really worth > it > for a drop-in replacement (i.e. a single chip or a very small > daughter-board > to plug into the ULA's 40-pin to DIP socket) because (as Phil says) it'd > be a > reasonably large board to do it as discrete logic. This knowledge should be shared...One of the things I plan to do when I learn VHDL is to create a "for dummies" tutorial. But, if someone knows how to create a circuit using ttl gates, you can use one of the manufacturers' tools to change it to vhdl/bitstream. I use an altera tool where I can enter my design in schematics. All cpld/fpga manufacturers has this option. From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Jan 1 09:30:37 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 09:30:37 -0600 Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: <495CBA26.5070107@gmail.com> References: <495BCFD2.8000105@gmail.com> from Jules Richardson at "Dec 31, 8 02:02:26 pm", <200812312127.mBVLR8PQ014734@floodgap.com> <495B818C.32309.19216ECD@cclist.sydex.com> <495CBA26.5070107@gmail.com> Message-ID: <495CE19D.40607@pacbell.net> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: ... > > The Timex TM100 chip does BASIC in hardware, but it doesn't parse the > text itself... it requires a tokenized stream. I tried googling this, but find no references. Do you have any? When was it made? Who was the market? From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jan 1 09:48:41 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 07:48:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Eo's and Hobbits (was Re: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME!) In-Reply-To: <017701c96c20$70ffdee0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> from Alexandre Souza at "Jan 1, 9 12:51:04 pm" Message-ID: <200901011548.n01Fmf1F014970@floodgap.com> > The newton is the best, wonderful, no-words-to-describe thing I've ever > seen, but killed just by two items: No conectivity and no PDF reading. Actually, the pen OS I was the biggest fan of was Magic Cap. I have a DataRover 840 with an Ethernet card and it's rather fun. It even has a primitive web browser. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I shouldn't have to explain this to someone old enough to type. - S. Gardner From bob at jfcl.com Thu Jan 1 10:00:03 2009 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 08:00:03 -0800 Subject: T-11 (was Re: PDP-11/70 cache memory) Message-ID: <002101c96c2a$02369e90$06a3dbb0$@com> >bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >PS. Now only if BOB could make a PDP 11 kit . :( I think it'd be fun too, and if somebody else made one I'd buy one, but as a product - - there's no legal software you can run on the T11 (and no, RT11 isn't legal!) - there's no lights and switches front panel option for the T11 - there's no source for T11 chips except to steal them from old hardware like RQDX3s, etc Bob From emu at e-bbes.com Thu Jan 1 10:29:38 2009 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 09:29:38 -0700 Subject: T-11 (was Re: PDP-11/70 cache memory) In-Reply-To: <002101c96c2a$02369e90$06a3dbb0$@com> References: <002101c96c2a$02369e90$06a3dbb0$@com> Message-ID: <495CEF72.7060201@e-bbes.com> Bob Armstrong wrote: >> bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >> PS. Now only if BOB could make a PDP 11 kit . :( > I think it'd be fun too, and if somebody else made one I'd buy one, but as > a product - There was/is a design out there from a guy (Peter McCollum) who made a T11-SBC, and really got it working. He Wire-Wrapped it, but the schematics are somewhere on the net. Somebody just has to sit down and make a PCB out of it. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jan 1 11:48:50 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 09:48:50 -0800 Subject: Fairchild SYMBOL Message-ID: <495D0202.4070802@bitsavers.org> > Chapter 8 of "Advances in Computer Architecture" describes the SYMBOL computer, designed > and built buy Fairchild Camera, and operated at Iowa State. Only one was built. And that one is in the CHM collection. I have found some documentation for it, but no software. From rickb at bensene.com Thu Jan 1 11:51:35 2009 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 09:51:35 -0800 Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: <0KCS00A8P2TXXQH7@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0KCS00A8P2TXXQH7@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: Allison wrote: > Memory says there was a Wang machine that directly executed Basic. > Yes, the Wang 2200-series machines used a microcoded architecture that implemented a BASIC interpreter as a native "language". These machines were an extension of the architecture developed for the Wang 700-series electronic calculators. It's an interesting twist of fate. Wang hadn't intended to make an advanced scientific calculator, as the thought was that their 300-Series calculators were all that they needed. Dr. Wang felt that the important market was in computers, and had a development effort underway to make a computer that was to compete with IBM's System/360. It was Dr. Wang's intent to have Wang become the largest computer company in the world. However, when Hewlett Packard introduced the HP 9100A calculator, it immediately took most of the market share away from Wang in the scientific calculator marketplace, where Wang was the leader. This quickly put Wang into a cash crunch, as they had a hard time selling the 300-Series machines. The efforts to develop a computer were quickly re-targeted -- it was mandated that the basic computer design (a microcoded architecture) was to be refitted to serve as an advanced programmable calculator. This became the Wang 700-Series calculators (as well as follow-on machines such as the 500-Series, 600-Series, and later 400- and C-Series machines). While the 700-Series machines did help rescue Wang's calculator business, the real savior for Wang's stockholders was the introduction of Wang's word processing equipment, also based on much the same microcoded architecture as the 700-Series calculators. As it became clear that calculators were becoming a commodity market, driven mainly by semiconductor manufacturers who had the resources to fabricate LSI calculator chipsets, and later single-chip implementations, Wang Labs revisited building a computer at a much "smaller" level than going after IBM. The 2200-series BASIC computers (although Wang initially marketed them as "calculators") were the result. The architecture went from computer, to calculator, and back to computer, with sidelines into word processors. Check out Jim Battle's http://www.wang2200.org . There's even an emulator of the 2200 that actually runs the actual 2200 microcode! Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Jan 1 11:58:50 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 11:58:50 -0600 Subject: What kind of IC is this In-Reply-To: <014a01c96c1f$6a00e7c0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> References: <495BD13B.4040604@gmail.com> <014a01c96c1f$6a00e7c0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> Message-ID: <495D045A.6060000@gmail.com> Alexandre Souza wrote: >> I was worrying about my LVROM player a few weeks ago, but looking at >> board > > LD ROM? The big shiny disk? :oD Yep (well, LVROM in Philips' terminology, but same thing). They're awesome. > This is something I'd love to see working :D Hmm, well there's a working one at Bletchley in England if you ever get over there. One day I'll have mine shipped out to the US and have it running at a VCF... cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Jan 1 12:12:06 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 12:12:06 -0600 Subject: BBC Second Processor Tube ULA (was Re: What kind of IC is this) In-Reply-To: <495C1A72.7000201@philpem.me.uk> References: <495C1080.6070803@gmail.com> <495C1A72.7000201@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <495D0776.8040407@gmail.com> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: >> Not *completely*, AFAIK - although there are fragments all over the >> place. I think there's enough amassed wisdom around now that it >> *could* be done though, because the software to drive either side is >> understood enough, as is the electrical (physical) interface, and >> there are still survivors of all the vintage hardware which made use >> of the ULA. > > What's available appears to be fairly thin on the ground though. A quick > search on 'the bay' revealed tons of Master 128s and BBC Bs, but nary a > second processor in sight. Yeah, I sold a couple on there just over a year ago - pretty much my only foray into selling on ebay (and not something I care to repeat). I offloaded another four or so via word of mouth. I've got another six Acorn ones with the TUBE ULA but as they're all different I don't want to part with them I'm afraid! > I'd feel a bit bad if I ended up killing a ULA or a 2nd processor though > :-/ Yeah. I blew one up by plugging a copro in backwards once and felt guilty (in my defence, the silk-screening was wrong on the copro PCB, but I still should have checked with a meter first!) >> The problem is that very few people have both a grasp on that >> knowledge and the ability to do the necessary electronic design - it's >> only really worth it for a drop-in replacement (i.e. a single chip or >> a very small daughter-board to plug into the ULA's 40-pin to DIP >> socket) because (as Phil says) it'd be a reasonably large board to do >> it as discrete logic. > > Oh, is that a challenge I hear? :) Kind-of. I figure that a combination of you, Sprow and JGH are probably the best three to get something like this up and running... :-) Sadly all my TUBE docs are in storage*, and I'm not sure what I have scanned here with me - I know I've got some TUBE notes from Hugo and a TUBE app note (but I think the latter's online anyway). * i.e. stuff like the A500 manuals might have something useful inside. > Seems Sprow has a few ULAs left, and one of those (assuming it's > working) should be enough to clone the thing, but a 6502 2proc (either > cheesewedge or internal, as long as it works on a Master 128) might be > handy for a bit of live testing, if such a thing proves necessary. To be honest, lay out your own 6502 board. I've got schematics and ROM images, and there's nowt special to it, assuming you have the ULA. I keep forgetting to poke Sprow about buying a ULA - I still need one for one of my Springboards, and I suspect that the one in my '286 copro might be duff. cheers Jules From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Jan 1 12:24:59 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 12:24:59 -0600 Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: References: <0KCS00A8P2TXXQH7@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <495D0A7B.8030106@pacbell.net> Rick Bensene wrote: > Allison wrote: > >> Memory says there was a Wang machine that directly executed Basic. >> > Yes, the Wang 2200-series machines used a microcoded architecture that > implemented a BASIC interpreter as a native "language". It is perhaps a religious question, but where does microcode end and an instruction set architecture begin? That is, what distinguishes microcode from a conventional instruction set? It isn't necessarily width -- there are narrow and wide styles of microcode, and all points in between. The Wang 700 was 43 bits wide (as Rick certainly knows well), the first generation Wang 2200 had 20b microwords, and the 2200 VP had 23b+parity microwords. As a side note, I'm surprised that the 700 was so wide. Considering the expense of making the core-based ROMs, a narrower microword with more logic spend decoding seems like the more economical choice. On common feature of microcode is having multiple orthogonal control fields. On that basis, the 2200 was microcode. Another common feature of microcode, but not universal, is exposed pipeline hazards. The 2200 fails this, as the effects of each microword is finished before the next microword starts. It is not any more tricky to write 2200 microcode than asm for the typical microprocessor. Dave Angel, one of the guys who wrote the microcode for the 2200T and the 2200VP, took umbrage that my webpage disputes the oft-stated claim that the 2200 implemented BASIC in hardware. He seemed stuck on the distinction that "all other" BASICs have two levels of interpretation -- the code that the interpreter is written in, and the microcode that is interpreting the lower level instruction set. I pointed out that the Z80 isn't microcoded at all and therefore there is one level of interpretation going on, but the point seemed lost on him. For that matter, the overwhelming majority of x86 instructions in today's processors, measured dynamically, are also executed directly without microcode assistance. > These machines > were an extension of the architecture developed for the Wang 700-series > electronic calculators. It's an interesting twist of fate. Wang hadn't > intended to make an advanced scientific calculator, as the thought was > that their 300-Series calculators were all that they needed. Dr. Wang > felt that the important market was in computers, and had a development > effort underway to make a computer that was to compete with IBM's > System/360. It was Dr. Wang's intent to have Wang become the largest > computer company in the world. However, when Hewlett Packard introduced > the HP 9100A calculator, it immediately took most of the market share > away from Wang in the scientific calculator marketplace, where Wang was > the leader. This quickly put Wang into a cash crunch, as they had a hard > time selling the 300-Series machines. The efforts to develop a > computer were quickly re-targeted -- it was mandated that the basic > computer design (a microcoded architecture) was to be refitted to serve > as an advanced programmable calculator. This became the Wang 700-Series > calculators (as well as follow-on machines such as the 500-Series, > 600-Series, and later 400- and C-Series machines). While the 700-Series > machines did help rescue Wang's calculator business, the real savior for > Wang's stockholders was the introduction of Wang's word processing > equipment, also based on much the same microcoded architecture as the > 700-Series calculators. I have a website on the Wang 1200 that is all ready to turn on, but I'm waiting to hear back from Jay West to see if he is willing to host it. I'm looking forward to digging into it more, but one difference between the 700 and the 1200 is that the 700 has a nibble wide data path; the 1200 logically has a nibble wide data path, but it is implemented bit serially. Some of the data sources in the A & B ALU inputs that are "don't cares" in Rick's reverse engineering of the 700 definitely act as sources on the 1200. The 1200 wasn't ever a cash producer for Wang, but its failures did educate them such that when they did come out with the Wang WPS in 1976 (which was 8080-based), they offered something that really did serve the market well. > As it became clear that calculators were > becoming a commodity market, driven mainly by semiconductor > manufacturers who had the resources to fabricate LSI calculator > chipsets, and later single-chip implementations, Wang Labs revisited > building a computer at a much "smaller" level than going after IBM. The > 2200-series BASIC computers (although Wang initially marketed them as > "calculators") were the result. The architecture went from computer, to > calculator, and back to computer, with sidelines into word processors. > > Check out Jim Battle's http://www.wang2200.org . There's even an > emulator of the 2200 that actually runs the actual 2200 microcode! Thanks for the plug! > Rick Bensene > The Old Calculator Museum > http://oldcalculatormuseum.com And to return the favor, visit Rick's site -- in addition to the great assortment of old calculators, Rick has a lot of original research, and a number of interviews with the designers of these machines that you can't find anywhere else. From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Jan 1 12:26:53 2009 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 10:26:53 -0800 Subject: Memory/cache on the 11/70 In-Reply-To: <495C26FC.7020709@softjar.se> References: <200812312022.mBVKLL6E005244@dewey.classiccmp.org> <495C26FC.7020709@softjar.se> Message-ID: <51FAAF03-D854-443F-AEBC-B4196A30250D@shiresoft.com> On Dec 31, 2008, at 6:14 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > Correct. The cache and memory controller is a total of four cards. > But unless my memory fails me, all the signals needed are actually > located in just two of the slots. So you'd have to go with a two > card solution. Either one card and paddles, or two cards with > interconnects. > >> The advantage of just replacing the MK11 boxes, is that it could >> be done with just one board. Depending upon signaling and such >> (and with sufficient integration - ie FPGAs and SMTs) it *might* >> even fit on a quad board vs hex. > > Oh, it could definitely be done with just one quad board. The memory > bus is really simple. > It's just that you won't get much of a speed gain that way, so it > will mostly be a space and power save thing. > Not at all as interesting, atleast not from my point of view. > > You can probably get it all in with through holes on a quad card even. > The memory bus is really simple to interface. And since you'll keep > it in the CPU box, and have the full 4 megs on one card, you can > ignore all the requirements of the bus drivers for the memory bus as > well. > The 11/70 memory bus is otherwise designed for quite a long signal > path. Total max was two cabinets full of memory boxes, or eight of > them. That would get it close to ten feet. Power was accordingly. > So, while not Unibus, there are drivers and terminators on that bus > as well. (Actually, the terminators are the same as those small > cards that terminate a massbus, if anyone ever disassembled one of > those.) > > Remember, SETASI did this on a hex card something like 20 years ago, > if not more. Most of the area was probably memory chips, which can > be reduced extremely much by now. Actually, they used some surface mount for the memory chips. The memory was pretty dense on that board but certainly not the majority of the area. > > > But, as I said, I don't find that exercise very interesting. > >> The other issue with not replacing the cache, is that the verilog >> to implement this would *much* simpler (ie it can probably be >> completed faster). > > True. Simple stuff is always faster to actually do. :-) I've a rough design right now. I spent some time last night thinking about this and I have it pretty much blocked out (modulo timing issues - but that's the great thing about designing with FPGAs - if I miss something w.r.t. timing, I just have to load a new "program"). I'll see how much spare time I have in the next few weeks and see how far I can get. > And to make a few comments on other stuff that's been mentioned. > > You don't seem to appreciate the speed of things on the memory bus. > A read cycle form the MK11 was typically something like 600ns, and > could be as much as 1200ns (when error correction was required), if > I remember right. Write was just as bad, while modify was worse. The > max speed possible is still much lower than 150 ns, which is what > the CPU will run at when you have cache hits (assuming my memory is > right). There is setups, handshakes and signal propagations on a big > bus involved. I thought that was driven by the memory and not the memory bus. There appear to be some minimum timings (50ns & 100ns pulses) but from what I could tell from the docs, the speed was dictated by the MK11s and not necessarily the memory bus. Of course there are deskew times as well. I'll have to go into it in more detail though. If this were 15-20 years ago, I'd agree that speed would be a principle concern, but space and power seem to be more important these days. Given that this solution (just like the PEP-70/Hypercache) is completely reversible I don't see a fundamental problem with this approach. I mostly do this stuff out of interest in preserving the systems in as much of a runnable state as possible. All of the the 11/70s I acquired over the past few years have been CPUs only. There have been no memory boxes (or peripherals of any kind). I haven't been particularly worried about this issue since I also managed to acquire a fair number of PEP-70's & Hypercaches. But I suspect there may be other people out there that aren't as fortunate and want to run an 11/70 without having to have large numbers of racks. I don't worry too much about space/power since I am restoring a 2065 after all and 11's pale in comparison (but I'm also planning to do a memory replacement for that too which is where I discovered the SSRAMs since they are the perfect geometry for a '10). > > > 70ns memory will definitely be sufficient for whatever we would > design. I plan on using 200Mhz SSRAMs 'cause they're relatively easy to interface to. Of course, this is way overkill (5ns memory access times) for this but they're cheap (~$8/ea and only 2 would be needed). I probably won't clock it that fast. I figure something on the order of a 40MHz base clock (25ns) would give me enough granularity for any timing that would need to be done. > > I very much doubt that we'd have any problems getting it all into > one or two cards. > One advantage of replacing the cache is that then we'd definitely > just talk TTL. No buses with drivers at all. > Much simpler and cheaper from that point of view. The driver/receivers are my principle concern. I did find a bus transceiver last night that's open-collector on one side and tri-state on the other. That simplifies things *alot* if it's compatible (though I suspect that with a 4-8" run of cables almost anything would work). Now if I could just find one that was LVTTL on the tri-state side I'd be happy (it would eliminate level shifters). :-) > > > Absolutely best would of course be if we could find drawings for the > HC-70/PEP-70 combination, and use those as the basis for a design, > and just improve by using current available technology. That would be ideal. However, does anyone have drawings for the MK11? The most I could find was the tech manual on Bitsavers. I mainly want to understand the transceivers a bit more. TTFN - Guy From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Jan 1 12:29:41 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 12:29:41 -0600 Subject: Language-specific CPUs In-Reply-To: <495BFF06.7020103@pacbell.net> References: <495BCFD2.8000105@gmail.com> from Jules Richardson at "Dec 31, 8 02:02:26 pm", <200812312127.mBVLR8PQ014734@floodgap.com> <495B818C.32309.19216ECD@cclist.sydex.com> <495BFA5E.4000203@pacbell.net> <495BFF06.7020103@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <495D0B95.90809@pacbell.net> Jim Battle wrote: ... >> I remember reading a computer architecture book back in the early/mid >> 80s, I think it was by Stone. The subject was "advanced" >> architectures. One section described on attempt to build a >> timesharing system for running a BASIC-like subset, and everything was >> hardwired -- parsing was via gate-level state machines, not >> microcode. The intended audience was college-level computer classes. >> As I recall, they gave up after getting a simplified version going. > > Dang, I have the book. I bought used recently it because of its i432 > section, but didn't recognize it was the same book I had read so many > years ago. > > Chapter 8 of "Advances in Computer Architecture" describes the SYMBOL > computer, designed and built buy Fairchild Camera, and operated at Iowa > State. Only one was built. The design was started in the mid 60s. > Here is an excerpt: I forgot to mention I had the author wrong. "Advances in Computer Architecture," by Myers. Mine is the second edition, 1981. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 1 12:33:35 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 10:33:35 -0800 Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: References: <0KCS00A8P2TXXQH7@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net>, Message-ID: <495C9BFF.6444.1D70B9BB@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jan 2009 at 9:51, Rick Bensene wrote: > Yes, the Wang 2200-series machines used a microcoded architecture that > implemented a BASIC interpreter as a native "language". Like an IBM 5150 without any disks? If we're talking about "directly executing" shouldn't the hardware be so tightly wound up with the language that reprogramming it (say, by replacing ROMs) to host some other language is impossible? Otherwise, it's just a conventional processor executing a stored program. Cheers, Chuck From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Jan 1 12:38:35 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 12:38:35 -0600 Subject: Fairchild SYMBOL In-Reply-To: <495D0202.4070802@bitsavers.org> References: <495D0202.4070802@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <495D0DAB.80809@pacbell.net> Al Kossow wrote: > > Chapter 8 of "Advances in Computer Architecture" describes the SYMBOL > computer, designed > > and built buy Fairchild Camera, and operated at Iowa State. Only one > was built. > > And that one is in the CHM collection. I have found some documentation > for it, but no software. Very cool. Do you know if it is the complete machine? Any schematics? How large is it? It makes me wonder if it could be implemented on an FPGA. With today's design languages, it wouldn't be very difficult to create a tool chain that could turn a BNF description into a netlist -- BNF -> verilog, verilog->gates. I'm sure one thing that was very daunting back then was any small change to the language would result in massive changes to the wiring. Of course there would be no reason for carrying it out, but it is fun to think about. Even if you could build such an FPGA and got it going at 100 MHz, it would still be slower than a conventional compiler running on a 2 GHz x86. Despite the increased efficiency, it is hard to bridge that 20x clock multiplier. The best you could do is improve on the start up time, but for any code that iterated, the compiler would win as the parsing costs are paid only once. From jam at magic.com Thu Jan 1 12:52:43 2009 From: jam at magic.com (James A. Markevitch) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 10:52:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: Memory/cache on the 11/70 Message-ID: <200901011852.KAA04813@magellan.magic.com> > > Absolutely best would of course be if we could find drawings for the > > HC-70/PEP-70 combination, and use those as the basis for a design, > > and just improve by using current available technology. > > That would be ideal. However, does anyone have drawings for the > MK11? The most I could find was the tech manual on Bitsavers. I > mainly want to understand the transceivers a bit more. Hmm ... not on manx, either. I've got the MK11-B field maintenance print set (MP00523). I'll see if I can dig it out this evening. The MJ11 drawings would also show the transceivers. James Markevitch From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 1 12:52:50 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 10:52:50 -0800 Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: <016701c96c1f$d32fc900$46fea8c0@DeskJara> References: <200812312127.mBVLR8PQ014734@floodgap.com>, <016701c96c1f$d32fc900$46fea8c0@DeskJara> Message-ID: <495CA082.14417.1D825E55@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jan 2009 at 12:45, Alexandre Souza wrote: > AVR microcontrollers are said optimized for C, but there is an excellent > assembler, the AVR Studio. Wow, if that claim is made with a straight face, it has to be an invention of some marketing type. I've coded my share of AVR assembly and certainly wouldn't characterize the uC that way. Perhaps the TI MSP430 uC could be said to be "optimized for C"; it reminds me of the PDP-11 architecture. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 1 12:56:07 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 18:56:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: <495C9BFF.6444.1D70B9BB@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 1, 9 10:33:35 am Message-ID: > > On 1 Jan 2009 at 9:51, Rick Bensene wrote: > > > Yes, the Wang 2200-series machines used a microcoded architecture that > > implemented a BASIC interpreter as a native "language". > > Like an IBM 5150 without any disks? If we're talking about > "directly executing" shouldn't the hardware be so tightly wound up > with the language that reprogramming it (say, by replacing ROMs) to > host some other language is impossible? Otherwise, it's just a > conventional processor executing a stored program. OK, suppose we take a typicel microcomputer with BASIC in ROM and replace the ROMs with a (very large) set of AND and OR gates to carry out the same logic function (after all, a ROM is just a fixed AND matrix (the address decoder) follered by a programablt OR matrix (combines the outputs of that decoder into the desired output words). Is that a hardware implenentation of BASIC or not :-) -tony From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Jan 1 12:59:17 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 16:59:17 -0200 Subject: What kind of IC is this References: <495BD13B.4040604@gmail.com><014a01c96c1f$6a00e7c0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> <495D045A.6060000@gmail.com> Message-ID: <04c601c96c43$3e165770$46fea8c0@DeskJara> >> LD ROM? The big shiny disk? :oD > Yep (well, LVROM in Philips' terminology, but same thing). They're > awesome. :D Nice! (read it in tone of Borat!) >> This is something I'd love to see working :D > Hmm, well there's a working one at Bletchley in England if you ever get > over > there. One day I'll have mine shipped out to the US and have it running at > a > VCF... Hmmm...since I'm in Brazil...it is a little bit TOO far away from me :) But I hope someday I can grab at least a LD-ROM megadrive game for my Laseractive :o) From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Jan 1 13:05:09 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 13:05:09 -0600 Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: <495C9BFF.6444.1D70B9BB@cclist.sydex.com> References: <0KCS00A8P2TXXQH7@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net>, <495C9BFF.6444.1D70B9BB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <495D13E5.6090405@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1 Jan 2009 at 9:51, Rick Bensene wrote: > >> Yes, the Wang 2200-series machines used a microcoded architecture that >> implemented a BASIC interpreter as a native "language". > > Like an IBM 5150 without any disks? Sounds like Rick's saying that the interpreter essentially ran within the CPU's microcode though, rather than in any kind of external ROM. I'm really not sure where the distinction between assembly and 'not assembly' should lie, though. What does a stream of tokenised BASIC or Java bytecode count as? It's not the language in it's original (source) form, so the CPU doesn't "directly run" BASIC or Java (more like it runs assembled code, albeit using pretty coarse instructions). I'm not sure what the benefit would be in a CPU where human-readable source could be thrown at it, though; it'd likely be a lot less efficient than something requiring a compilation step. That doesn't mean someone hasn't tried. Heck, I suppose you could take a PC with some form of bidirectional data bus (a parallel port, say) which accepted whatever data you wanted - enact on the data fed to it and as a self-contained box, call the entire PC a "CPU". cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 1 13:27:12 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 11:27:12 -0800 Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: References: <495C9BFF.6444.1D70B9BB@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 1, 9 10:33:35 am, Message-ID: <495CA890.23328.1DA1D4C7@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jan 2009 at 18:56, Tony Duell wrote: > OK, suppose we take a typicel microcomputer with BASIC in ROM and replace > the ROMs with a (very large) set of AND and OR gates to carry out the > same logic function (after all, a ROM is just a fixed AND matrix > (the address decoder) follered by a programablt OR matrix (combines the > outputs of that decoder into the desired output words). Is that a > hardware implenentation of BASIC or not :-) Yes, if the gates were soldered onto the PCB :) Cheers, Chuck From lehmann at ans-netz.de Thu Jan 1 13:29:15 2009 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 20:29:15 +0100 Subject: What kind of IC is this - part two Message-ID: <20090101202915.56b17832.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Ok, I got another one - now with picture! ;) It is labeled DDU-4- 7992 The picture can be seen here: http://pics.pofo.de/gallery/v/S8000/S8000_boards/P1070269.JPG.html Wild guessing.... resistornetwork? capacitornetwork (was something like that around?)? Greetings, Oliver -- Oliver Lehmann http://www.pofo.de/ http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Thu Jan 1 13:34:37 2009 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 11:34:37 -0800 Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! References: <0KCS00A8P2TXXQH7@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <003301c96c47$fb9036a0$0201a8c0@hal9000> The FORTH chip I've used is the Rockwell R65F11P running RSC-FORTH ver 1.5 in a little robot dog called " FIFO ". FORTH is great for controlling robots and telescopes but kinda sucks for number crunching. Best regards, Steven > > > >Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! > > From: Cameron Kaiser > > Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 13:27:08 -0800 (PST) > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > >> (Interesting question, though - I wonder what a CPU might look like where you > >> could just throw C source code at it, for instance :) > > > >Well, there *was* the AT&T Hobbit: > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AT%26T_Hobbit > > > >Not quite that, but still optimized for C, allegedly. Never worked with > >the architecture myself. > > > > C was written for or about the PDP-11. Just about all the C addressing > modes and basic OPs are native for pdp11 addressing and many instructions. > > Then we have the WD Pascal Microengine that basically was the implementation > of P-code in microcode. > > There are machines that are coded for forth primitives directly. > > I believe somewhere there was or is a a Java engine. > > Memory says there was a Wang machine that directly executed Basic. > > Generally it was not uncommon but most were lost to time. > > > Allison From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jan 1 13:45:35 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 12:45:35 -0700 Subject: T-11 (was Re: PDP-11/70 cache memory) In-Reply-To: <002101c96c2a$02369e90$06a3dbb0$@com> References: <002101c96c2a$02369e90$06a3dbb0$@com> Message-ID: <495D1D5F.6010803@jetnet.ab.ca> Bob Armstrong wrote: > I think it'd be fun too, and if somebody else made one I'd buy one, but as > a product - > > - there's no legal software you can run on the T11 (and no, RT11 isn't > legal!) > - there's no lights and switches front panel option for the T11 > - there's no source for T11 chips except to steal them from old hardware > like RQDX3s, etc Yes you can do it legally ... IMPORT from behind the IRON CURTIAN. :) > Bob From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 1 13:52:57 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 11:52:57 -0800 Subject: What kind of IC is this - part two In-Reply-To: <20090101202915.56b17832.lehmann@ans-netz.de> References: <20090101202915.56b17832.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Message-ID: <495CAE99.9619.1DB96C35@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jan 2009 at 20:29, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > I got another one - now with picture! ;) > > It is labeled > > DDU-4- > 7992 Looks like a delay line to me. Cheers, Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Jan 1 14:11:36 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 12:11:36 -0800 Subject: What kind of IC is this - part two References: <20090101202915.56b17832.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Message-ID: <495D2378.F491F25@cs.ubc.ca> Oliver Lehmann wrote: > > I got another one - now with picture! ;) > > It is labeled > > DDU-4- > 7992 > > The picture can be seen here: > > http://pics.pofo.de/gallery/v/S8000/S8000_boards/P1070269.JPG.html > > Wild guessing.... resistornetwork? capacitornetwork (was something like > that around?)? I can't say I recognise the specific device shown, but sometimes delay lines were packaged like that. (Guess: [Digital|Discrete] Delay Unit - 4 uS ?). (Pulse transformers also were put in such packages in the mid-late 70's, but they are generally associated with core memory drivers.) From lehmann at ans-netz.de Thu Jan 1 14:34:28 2009 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 21:34:28 +0100 Subject: What kind of IC is this - part two In-Reply-To: <495CAE99.9619.1DB96C35@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20090101202915.56b17832.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <495CAE99.9619.1DB96C35@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20090101213428.94476a25.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1 Jan 2009 at 20:29, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > > > I got another one - now with picture! ;) > > > > It is labeled > > > > DDU-4- > > 7992 > > Looks like a delay line to me. Ah - running ddu4 +delay +line through google the following pdf was shown http://www.datasheet5.com/download.asp?id=OCPNRMMWNPRNN Looks like you where right ;) Regardingg the naming convention showed in this pdf 992 could indicate 992ns but 992 sounds "suspicious" -- Oliver Lehmann http://www.pofo.de/ http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Thu Jan 1 14:42:09 2009 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 15:42:09 -0500 Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: <003301c96c47$fb9036a0$0201a8c0@hal9000> References: <0KCS00A8P2TXXQH7@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> <003301c96c47$fb9036a0$0201a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <4affc5e0901011242s717a3274w958e1833aa929ef2@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Jan 1, 2009 at 2:34 PM, Scanning wrote: > FORTH is great for controlling robots > and telescopes but kinda sucks for number crunching. Not once a few modifications have been done: RPL on HP calculators is essentially FORTH. (and to stay on-topic, I believe the Saturn Processor was designed specifically for RPL) Joe. -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Jan 1 14:44:57 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 20:44:57 +0000 Subject: What kind of IC is this - part two In-Reply-To: <20090101202915.56b17832.lehmann@ans-netz.de> References: <20090101202915.56b17832.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Message-ID: <495D2B49.8090700@philpem.me.uk> Oliver Lehmann wrote: > http://pics.pofo.de/gallery/v/S8000/S8000_boards/P1070269.JPG.html > > Wild guessing.... resistornetwork? capacitornetwork (was something like > that around?)? That logo belongs to Data Delay Devices, who are still in business: Their part number index lists the DDU4: With a datasheet here: But there's nothing about a DDU-4-7992 in there at all. Based on the naming convention, I'd be inclined to think it was a 7-output delay line, with a total delay of 992 nanoseconds. 992ns seems a bit dubious though. It might be worth emailing their tech support department (email address is at the top of the part number index) and asking them about the meaning of the '7992' part number suffix. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From lehmann at ans-netz.de Thu Jan 1 14:49:45 2009 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 21:49:45 +0100 Subject: What kind of IC is this - part two In-Reply-To: <495D2B49.8090700@philpem.me.uk> References: <20090101202915.56b17832.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <495D2B49.8090700@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <20090101214945.36e832e9.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Philip Pemberton wrote: > It might be worth emailing their tech support department (email address is at > the top of the part number index) and asking them about the meaning of the > '7992' part number suffix. Yeah... done this right now :) -- Oliver Lehmann http://www.pofo.de/ http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jan 1 15:18:21 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 16:18:21 -0500 Subject: Fairchild SYMBOL In-Reply-To: <495D0DAB.80809@pacbell.net> References: <495D0202.4070802@bitsavers.org> <495D0DAB.80809@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <36F1172E-D975-4EC7-B728-C7281DC54F15@neurotica.com> On Jan 1, 2009, at 1:38 PM, Jim Battle wrote: >> > Chapter 8 of "Advances in Computer Architecture" describes the >> SYMBOL computer, designed >> > and built buy Fairchild Camera, and operated at Iowa State. >> Only one was built. >> And that one is in the CHM collection. I have found some >> documentation for it, but no software. > > Very cool. Do you know if it is the complete machine? Any > schematics? How large is it? > > It makes me wonder if it could be implemented on an FPGA. With > today's design languages, it wouldn't be very difficult to create a > tool chain that could turn a BNF description into a netlist -- BNF - > > verilog, verilog->gates. I'm sure one thing that was very > daunting back then was any small change to the language would > result in massive changes to the wiring. Oooh, that'd be serious fun! > Of course there would be no reason for carrying it out, but it is > fun to think about. Nono, think of the architectural research that this would facilitate! Aside from just being fun, one could do some seriously interesting architectural work with something like this. > Even if you could build such an FPGA and got it going at 100 MHz, > it would still be slower than a conventional compiler running on a > 2 GHz x86. Despite the increased efficiency, it is hard to bridge > that 20x clock multiplier. The best you could do is improve on the > start up time, but for any code that iterated, the compiler would > win as the parsing costs are paid only once. I dunno, those x86s are pretty darn inefficient. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jan 1 15:26:37 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 14:26:37 -0700 Subject: Fairchild SYMBOL In-Reply-To: <36F1172E-D975-4EC7-B728-C7281DC54F15@neurotica.com> References: <495D0202.4070802@bitsavers.org> <495D0DAB.80809@pacbell.net> <36F1172E-D975-4EC7-B728-C7281DC54F15@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <495D350D.7020603@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > Nono, think of the architectural research that this would facilitate! > Aside from just being fun, one could do some seriously interesting > architectural work with something like this. Um how do you do recusion? > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jan 1 15:30:06 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 14:30:06 -0700 Subject: Fairchild SYMBOL In-Reply-To: <495D350D.7020603@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <495D0202.4070802@bitsavers.org> <495D0DAB.80809@pacbell.net> <36F1172E-D975-4EC7-B728-C7281DC54F15@neurotica.com> <495D350D.7020603@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <495D35DE.9040109@jetnet.ab.ca> bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > Dave McGuire wrote: > >> Nono, think of the architectural research that this would >> facilitate! Aside from just being fun, one could do some seriously >> interesting architectural work with something like this. > > Um how do you do recusion? spelling error line 8 - recursion >> Dave McGuire >> Port Charlotte, FL > > > From brain at jbrain.com Thu Jan 1 15:32:24 2009 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 15:32:24 -0600 Subject: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <495D3668.8010202@jbrain.com> Tony Duell wrote: > I assume there's a limited number of writes to the microcontroller > program memroy, though... > 10000 > I don;t know how much firmware space you have, but it would be nice if at > least Amigo and SS/80 could be fitted in together with a jumper/switch to > select between them. I'd also suggest some kind of configuration > switch-thingy to select the drive size -- some HP machines moan if the > drive is not the one they're expecting... > > Anything is possible. > Well, I haev quite a few HPs, but (a) I am rather partial to them and (b) > there's this little bit of water in the way [1]. On the other had, if I > can be of any help wen testing, let me know... > I'll post to the list if I get that far. > HO did bti-bang HPIB on several devices. The 82169 (HPIL-HPIB translator) > uses an 8049 IIRC, a custom HP buffer chip (which is nothing more than > line drivers/receivers) and a couple of TTL chips. The 98034 (HPIB > interface for the 98x5 machines) used HP's custom 'nanocontroller', some > standard buffer chips (3448s?) and a little TTL. Scheamtics for the > latter should eb on the Austalian Museum site. > I'll check into this (any other links to HPIB interfaces?) Right now, I'm fighting with the fact that I believe the full complement of IEEE-488 signals is 17, and it sure would be nice if I could get it down to 16 From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Jan 1 15:34:30 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 19:34:30 -0200 Subject: What kind of IC is this - part two References: <20090101202915.56b17832.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Message-ID: <062801c96c58$e38f21e0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> > I got another one - now with picture! ;) > It is labeled > DDU-4- > 7992 > The picture can be seen here: > http://pics.pofo.de/gallery/v/S8000/S8000_boards/P1070269.JPG.html > Wild guessing.... resistornetwork? capacitornetwork (was something like > that around?)? I'm pretty sure this is a delay line. Is this a XT board? From brain at jbrain.com Thu Jan 1 15:50:34 2009 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 15:50:34 -0600 Subject: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: <495D3668.8010202@jbrain.com> References: <495D3668.8010202@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <495D3AAA.1000509@jbrain.com> Jim Brain wrote: >> > I'll check into this (any other links to HPIB interfaces?) Right now, > I'm fighting with the fact that I believe the full complement of > IEEE-488 signals is 17, and it sure would be nice if I could get it > down to 16 Scratch that. I miscounted. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Jan 1 16:17:43 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 14:17:43 -0800 Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! References: <0KCS00A8P2TXXQH7@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <495D4107.4CDE06D5@cs.ubc.ca> Allison wrote: > > C was written for or about the PDP-11. Just about all the C addressing > modes and basic OPs are native for pdp11 addressing and many instructions. While there seems to be a popularly-held association between C and the PDP-11, I believe the suggestion of design influence is overstated. The funky addressing operations (post/pre-inc/dec,indirection,etc.) of C were present in the earlier B language, which ran on other machines before the 11. Dennis Ritchie actually specifically addresses this in his history of the C language: http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/who/dmr/chist.html, see the "More History" section). A primary change from B to C was the addition of byte types and a further abstraction of pointers to facilitate byte-addressed machines. Porting the early unix to the 11 may have helped instigate this (see Ritchie's History of C again), but byte-handling and addressing were nothing unique to, or uniquely beneficial to, the 11. (If it hadn't been done for the 11 it would have been done for another port.) While C and the PDP-11 were a nice fit, I'd suggest the correlation is more one of common trends of the time influencing both, than (either) being written or designed for the other. From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Jan 1 16:23:38 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 16:23:38 -0600 Subject: Fairchild SYMBOL In-Reply-To: <495D35DE.9040109@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <495D0202.4070802@bitsavers.org> <495D0DAB.80809@pacbell.net> <36F1172E-D975-4EC7-B728-C7281DC54F15@neurotica.com> <495D350D.7020603@jetnet.ab.ca> <495D35DE.9040109@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <495D426A.9080809@pacbell.net> bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >> Dave McGuire wrote: >> >>> Nono, think of the architectural research that this would >>> facilitate! Aside from just being fun, one could do some seriously >>> interesting architectural work with something like this. >> >> Um how do you do recusion? like anyone else -- with RAM and a pointer. the parser could be as simple as looking at one byte of input text per clock, or it could perhaps have a window of the next, say, 8 bytes looking forward in the stream, and decode entire tokens in a single clock. if the parsing logic hit "A - (B - C)", the state machine would look up "A" in the symbol table and retrieve its value (or hold an index to it) and place it on a value stack the "-" operator would be pushed on an operator stack "(" is pushed on the operator stack the "B" would be looked up, and saved on the value stack the "-" would be looked up, and since it has higher precedence than the top of the operator stack [which is "("], "-" would be pushed on the operator stack too. the "C" would be looked up and saved on the value stack the ")" is lower precedence than "-", so "-" is popped off the operator stack, and since it is dyadic, the B and C values would be popped off the value stack and operated on. the ")" is checked against the top of the operator stack; we find the "(" and pop it. if we found another operator instead, say unary "-", that would have been processed first. the operator stack is still non-empty, as "-" is found, so it is popped. since it is dyadic, the "B-C" value is popped and "A" value is popped and operated on. the operator stack is empty, and the expression is complete. a dirt simple state machine can carry that out; a smarter one delays pushing results in hopes that the next step needs the just computed result anyway. error processing would complicate things to know how far to rewind the stack. one could opt to have dedicated operator/value stacks, but then there would be a hard limit for the depth of expression nesting. This is manageable for Dartmouth BASIC, but more of a problem for a language with scoping. the best solution is to logically have the stacks in main memory, but to cache the top N entries from each FIFO. From bob099 at centurytel.net Thu Jan 1 16:26:44 2009 From: bob099 at centurytel.net (Choctaw Bob) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 16:26:44 -0600 Subject: T-11 (was Re: PDP-11/70 cache memory) In-Reply-To: <200901011800.n01I05ed017429@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901011800.n01I05ed017429@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <495D4324.4040106@centurytel.net> From: "e.stiebler" Subject: Re: T-11 (was Re: PDP-11/70 cache memory) >Bob Armstrong wrote: >> >> bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >> >> PS. Now only if BOB could make a PDP 11 kit . :( >> > > I think it'd be fun too, and if somebody else made one I'd buy one, but as > > a product - > >There was/is a design out there from a guy (Peter McCollum) who made a >T11-SBC, and really got it working. He Wire-Wrapped it, but the >schematics are somewhere on the net. Somebody just has to sit down and >make a PCB out of it. Schematic here http://www.geocities.com/saipan59/dec/t11.jpg -- A prudent man foresees the difficulties ahead and prepares for them; the simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences. - Proverbs 22:3 From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 1 16:30:40 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 14:30:40 -0800 Subject: What kind of IC is this - part two In-Reply-To: <062801c96c58$e38f21e0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> References: <20090101202915.56b17832.lehmann@ans-netz.de>, <062801c96c58$e38f21e0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> Message-ID: <495CD390.18453.1E49DF16@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jan 2009 at 19:34, Alexandre Souza wrote: > I'm pretty sure this is a delay line. Is this a XT board? Not with a card release (black plastic thing just visible on the left of the card). Hey Oliver, how about posting a photo of the whole card? I'm curious as to what bus this thing might reside on... Thanks, Chuck From shoppa at trailing-edge.com Thu Jan 1 16:46:15 2009 From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 17:46:15 -0500 Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: <200901012152.n01LpoOk022035@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901012152.n01LpoOk022035@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20090101224616.0FCB9BA5124@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Chuck wrote: > On 1 Jan 2009 at 9:51, Rick Bensene wrote: > > > Yes, the Wang 2200-series machines used a microcoded architecture that > > implemented a BASIC interpreter as a native "language". > > Like an IBM 5150 without any disks? If we're talking about > "directly executing" shouldn't the hardware be so tightly wound up > with the language that reprogramming it (say, by replacing ROMs) to > host some other language is impossible? Otherwise, it's just a > conventional processor executing a stored program. What about, say, a Western Digital Microengine? It's a LSI-11 chipset but with different microcode to interpret P-code which by definition means UCSD Pascal, so in every real respect a language-specific processor in a way that a PDP-11/03 isn't. It's not like people just popped in different MICROM chips to go from a PDP-11/03 to a Microengine to a Alpha Micro WD16. At least, nobody I knew did. I've had Alpha Micros and Microengines and 11/03's at different times through the years and while it's obvious they all have WD chips I never did have the inkling to go muck about with the MICROM's. I doubt a 11/03 with a WCS would be enough to "become" a Alpha Micro or a Microengine. I always did my WCS stuff within the context of the -11 register set, for example. Maybe I was just restrictively unclever at the time. Tim. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 1 17:00:32 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 15:00:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: <0KCS00A8P2TXXQH7@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0KCS00A8P2TXXQH7@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20090101145851.U38643@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 1 Jan 2009, Allison wrote: > C was written for or about the PDP-11. Just about all the C addressing > modes and basic OPs are native for pdp11 addressing and many instructions. > Then we have the WD Pascal Microengine that basically was the implementation > of P-code in microcode. > There are machines that are coded for forth primitives directly. > I believe somewhere there was or is a a Java engine. > Memory says there was a Wang machine that directly executed Basic. > Generally it was not uncommon but most were lost to time. I get a little uncomfortable contemplating the possibility of a machine designed to execute ASP.NET. From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jan 1 17:03:41 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 15:03:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: <20090101145851.U38643@shell.lmi.net> from Fred Cisin at "Jan 1, 9 03:00:32 pm" Message-ID: <200901012303.n01N3fH3010002@floodgap.com> > > Generally it was not uncommon but most were lost to time. > > I get a little uncomfortable contemplating the possibility of a machine > designed to execute ASP.NET. Please, I'm trying to eat here. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- TRUE HEADLINE: Bomb Victims Still Trying To Pick Up The Pieces ------------- From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jan 1 17:03:41 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 18:03:41 -0500 Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: <20090101145851.U38643@shell.lmi.net> References: <0KCS00A8P2TXXQH7@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> <20090101145851.U38643@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Jan 1, 2009, at 6:00 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> C was written for or about the PDP-11. Just about all the C >> addressing >> modes and basic OPs are native for pdp11 addressing and many >> instructions. >> Then we have the WD Pascal Microengine that basically was the >> implementation >> of P-code in microcode. >> There are machines that are coded for forth primitives directly. >> I believe somewhere there was or is a a Java engine. >> Memory says there was a Wang machine that directly executed Basic. >> Generally it was not uncommon but most were lost to time. > > I get a little uncomfortable contemplating the possibility of a > machine > designed to execute ASP.NET. WHY did you go there?? -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Jan 1 17:06:29 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 23:06:29 +0000 Subject: What kind of IC is this - part two In-Reply-To: <495CD390.18453.1E49DF16@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20090101202915.56b17832.lehmann@ans-netz.de>, <062801c96c58$e38f21e0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> <495CD390.18453.1E49DF16@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <495D4C75.8020900@philpem.me.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Hey Oliver, how about posting a photo of the whole card? I'm curious > as to what bus this thing might reside on... I'm not Oliver, but it looks like it's this board: The delay line is 5th IC down, 2nd from the left. Based on the rest of the photos in the "S8000" album (and the screen-print on the PCB), I'm inclined to think it's a Zilog System 8000 (S8000) ECC controller board. More info here: -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 1 17:16:26 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 23:16:26 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0901011242s717a3274w958e1833aa929ef2@mail.gmail.com> from "Joachim Thiemann" at Jan 1, 9 03:42:09 pm Message-ID: > Not once a few modifications have been done: RPL on HP calculators is > essentially FORTH. (and to stay on-topic, I believe the Saturn > Processor was designed specifically for RPL) Was it? The first (production) machine to use the Saturn was the HP71B, which had BASIC in ROM. Maybe RPL was being considered at that time, but I am not certain of that. Later versions of the Saturn did add some instructions to assist in RPL (the main one being PC=(A), basically a threading instruction). But I don't think Saturn machine code is particularly close to RPL even then. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 1 17:29:23 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 23:29:23 +0000 (GMT) Subject: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: <495D3668.8010202@jbrain.com> from "Jim Brain" at Jan 1, 9 03:32:24 pm Message-ID: > > I don;t know how much firmware space you have, but it would be nice if at > > least Amigo and SS/80 could be fitted in together with a jumper/switch to > > select between them. I'd also suggest some kind of configuration > > switch-thingy to select the drive size -- some HP machines moan if the > > drive is not the one they're expecting... > > > > > Anything is possible. ... except skiing through a revolving door :-) More seriously, there must be a limit to the code size. To goive you some idea as to the complexity, I think the HP Amigo drives had 8K of ROM, the SS/80 ones that I've worked on had 16K. This is 6809 machine code. The controller board contains a 6809, EPROM, RAM, the HPIB chip and standard-ish hard and/or floppy controller chips Obviously if you bit-banged it, it would take a little more code for that than to talk to the HPIB chips. I don't know how talking to a CF card (or whatever) compares to talking to a WD2973 floppy controller or a WD1010 hard disk contorller. But that should give you some idea. > > HO did bti-bang HPIB on several devices. The 82169 (HPIL-HPIB translator) > > uses an 8049 IIRC, a custom HP buffer chip (which is nothing more than > > line drivers/receivers) and a couple of TTL chips. The 98034 (HPIB > > interface for the 98x5 machines) used HP's custom 'nanocontroller', some > > standard buffer chips (3448s?) and a little TTL. Scheamtics for the > > latter should eb on the Austalian Museum site. > > > I'll check into this (any other links to HPIB interfaces?) Right now, HPIB == GPIB == IEEE-488 (at least at the hardware level). Alas I don't think the standard -- IIEE-488-1975 is freely distributable (IMHO standards _should_ be, but they rarely are). I did read it once -- many years ago -- but I don't have it. If you can find it, it's somehting you should read. HPIB disk units tend to use many of the features of the HPIB standard. Early HPIB instruments tended to do the IEEE handshakes in hardware (either monostales, or state machines), so that's probably not a lot of use to you. The conputers tended to use 9914 interface chips, again not a lot of use. And HP's custom HPIB chip, the 1TL1 (Medusa) is nice, but not a lot of interest to you. Commodore almost always bit-banged it, so looking at the schematics of PETs and their peripherals might be a help. Otherwise just poke about on the Australian museum. > I'm fighting with the fact that I believe the full complement of > IEEE-488 signals is 17, and it sure would be nice if I could get it down > to 16 Don't worry, it's 16 active signals : 8 data lines 3 handshake lines (DAV, NRFD, NDAC) 5 control lines (ATN, EOI, IFC, SRQ, REN) And then 7 logic grounds and a shield ground. All signals are bidirectional (although, unless you intend to be a controller, you don't ened to be able to drive some of them). Some devices drive them with totem-poll drivers, others open-collector (with passive termination). There are arguements in favour of either for particular applications. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 1 17:56:07 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 15:56:07 -0800 Subject: What kind of IC is this - part two In-Reply-To: <495D4C75.8020900@philpem.me.uk> References: <20090101202915.56b17832.lehmann@ans-netz.de>, <495CD390.18453.1E49DF16@cclist.sydex.com>, <495D4C75.8020900@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <495CE797.16404.1E98492F@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jan 2009 at 23:06, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Hey Oliver, how about posting a photo of the whole card? I'm curious > > as to what bus this thing might reside on... > > I'm not Oliver, but it looks like it's this board: > > > The delay line is 5th IC down, 2nd from the left. > > Based on the rest of the photos in the "S8000" album (and the screen-print on > the PCB), I'm inclined to think it's a Zilog System 8000 (S8000) ECC > controller board. Good spotting! So it's DEFINITELY not an XT board... :) Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 1 18:03:20 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 16:03:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Sorry (Was: Language-specific CPUs In-Reply-To: References: <0KCS00A8P2TXXQH7@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> <20090101145851.U38643@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20090101154730.L38643@shell.lmi.net> > >> Then we have the WD Pascal Microengine that basically was the > >> implementation > >> of P-code in microcode. > >> There are machines that are coded for forth primitives directly. > >> I believe somewhere there was or is a a Java engine. > >> Memory says there was a Wang machine that directly executed Basic. > >> Generally it was not uncommon but most were lost to time. > > I get a little uncomfortable contemplating the possibility of a > > machine > > designed to execute ASP.NET. On Thu, 1 Jan 2009, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Please, I'm trying to eat here. On Thu, 1 Jan 2009, Dave McGuire wrote: > WHY did you go there?? Sorry for such an excremental comparison, this is an aspect of the field that I am interested in, but know very little about. But some systems, such as Java bytecode, and including ones that might support multiple languages such as UCSD P-system, compile to a moderately low level intermediate language. IF that intermediate is low enough, then it becomes feasable to design hardware that is closely tied to the language, such as the p-system micro-engine, or SOAR ("Smalltalk On A Risc"), etc. ASP appears to be designed that way, and I have been meaning to get and read the ASP ILASM ("Intermediate level assembler"?) books. Would MICROS~1 not be working on a dedicated hardware system? For that matter (sorry for the mass indigestion), surely Intel is studying and doing massive statistical analyses of the relative frequency of different instructions, in order to optimize processors for what they will actually be used for. If their data is real world, then such optimizations would ultimately result in creation of processors that are specifically optimized for the weirdities of Windoze! I had hoped that this year would be better than last. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ats at offog.org Thu Jan 1 18:22:15 2009 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 00:22:15 +0000 Subject: T-11 (was Re: PDP-11/70 cache memory) In-Reply-To: <495D1D5F.6010803@jetnet.ab.ca> (bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca's message of "Thu\, 01 Jan 2009 12\:45\:35 -0700") References: <002101c96c2a$02369e90$06a3dbb0$@com> <495D1D5F.6010803@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: "bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca" writes: > Yes you can do it legally ... IMPORT from behind the IRON CURTIAN. :) Does this solve the software problem too -- i.e. are there any interesting Russian operating systems you could run on a T-11 SBC? -- Adam Sampson From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jan 1 20:02:38 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 19:02:38 -0700 Subject: T-11 (was Re: PDP-11/70 cache memory) In-Reply-To: References: <002101c96c2a$02369e90$06a3dbb0$@com> <495D1D5F.6010803@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <495D75BE.6040508@jetnet.ab.ca> Adam Sampson wrote: > "bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca" writes: > >> Yes you can do it legally ... IMPORT from behind the IRON CURTIAN. :) > > Does this solve the software problem too -- i.e. are there any > interesting Russian operating systems you could run on a T-11 SBC? > All good USSR^H^H development during the cold war era. The Russian trinary computer was typical development ... Good ideas but not the 5 year plan. From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Thu Jan 1 20:46:48 2009 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 20:46:48 -0600 Subject: MSDOS/DOS OBJ file format compatibility Message-ID: <495D8018.6040808@brutman.com> I've been working on my TCP/IP stack for three years now. It's in Borland Turbo C++ 3.0, which is capable of taking OBJs and making a LIB (library) from them. This is how I was planning to distribute my code for other people to use. A question came up today that I can't readily answer. If somebody is programming using Microsoft languages, will they be able to link against OBJs or LIBs I provide them? I have no idea if the OBJ or LIB format is standard and portable across the two vendor toolsets. If it is portable then I know I have to watch out for things like parameter ordering. But how does one express the concept of NEAR and FAR pointers in the different languages? Is there a guide or a cross reference somewhere? Maybe something buried in compiler docs somewhere? (The first target user is a *gasp* QuickBASIC user. I'd rather he program in C, but that's a different discussion.) Thanks, Mike From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 1 21:13:37 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 19:13:37 -0800 Subject: MSDOS/DOS OBJ file format compatibility In-Reply-To: <495D8018.6040808@brutman.com> References: <495D8018.6040808@brutman.com> Message-ID: <495D15E1.25606.1F4CD94E@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Jan 2009 at 20:46, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > > I've been working on my TCP/IP stack for three years now. It's in > Borland Turbo C++ 3.0, which is capable of taking OBJs and making a LIB > (library) from them. This is how I was planning to distribute my code > for other people to use. > > A question came up today that I can't readily answer. If somebody is > programming using Microsoft languages, will they be able to link against > OBJs or LIBs I provide them? I have no idea if the OBJ or LIB format is > standard and portable across the two vendor toolsets. > > If it is portable then I know I have to watch out for things like > parameter ordering. But how does one express the concept of NEAR and > FAR pointers in the different languages? Is there a guide or a cross > reference somewhere? Maybe something buried in compiler docs somewhere? Object files are compatible; there may been some naming convention issues (recall that MS uses name "mangling" in C++, but I think that can be turned off.) The calling sequence is standard C, with arguments being pushed in reverse order and the caller doing the cleanup. Pointer handling between languages can be very different. Here's the big rub as I see it--you'll have to provide the other people with a copy of the Turbo C++ library routines that you use. Will there be collisions in names? Almost certainly if the user you're dealing with is writing in MS C. Each language has its own calling convention (Turbo Pascal, for example, pushes arguments on the stack the reverse of Turbo C++ and expects the called routine to do stack cleanup on exit). BASIC parameter-passing conventions are very different from, C++, particularly in the case of strings. It can be done, but it's not always easy. Cheers, Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Jan 1 21:34:03 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 22:34:03 -0500 Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: <495CE19D.40607@pacbell.net> References: <495BCFD2.8000105@gmail.com> from Jules Richardson at "Dec 31, 8 02:02:26 pm", <200812312127.mBVLR8PQ014734@floodgap.com> <495B818C.32309.19216ECD@cclist.sydex.com> <495CBA26.5070107@gmail.com> <495CE19D.40607@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <495D8B2B.2090801@gmail.com> Jim Battle wrote: > Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > ... >> >> The Timex TM100 chip does BASIC in hardware, but it doesn't parse the >> text itself... it requires a tokenized stream. > > I tried googling this, but find no references. Do you have any? When > was it made? Who was the market? I think it was for the personal computing market, but I know to a degree of certainty that it never made it past the prototype stage. Peace... Sridhar From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jan 1 21:40:49 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 19:40:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: <495D8B2B.2090801@gmail.com> from Sridhar Ayengar at "Jan 1, 9 10:34:03 pm" Message-ID: <200901020340.n023enJv008198@floodgap.com> > > > The Timex TM100 chip does BASIC in hardware, but it doesn't parse the > > > text itself... it requires a tokenized stream. > > > > I tried googling this, but find no references. Do you have any? When > > was it made? Who was the market? > > I think it was for the personal computing market, but I know to a degree > of certainty that it never made it past the prototype stage. I presume this was to be part of the T/S home computer line? Like a post-2068 model? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Time makes more converts than reason. -- Thomas Payne ---------------------- From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Jan 1 22:06:38 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 22:06:38 -0600 Subject: Sorry (Was: Language-specific CPUs In-Reply-To: <20090101154730.L38643@shell.lmi.net> References: <0KCS00A8P2TXXQH7@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> <20090101145851.U38643@shell.lmi.net> <20090101154730.L38643@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <495D92CE.90306@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > For that matter (sorry for the mass indigestion), surely Intel is studying > and doing massive statistical analyses of the relative frequency of > different instructions Presumably - I expect this is common practice for all CPU manufacturers (and what I believe fed the first RISC designs way back when) > If their data is real world, then such > optimizations would ultimately result in creation of processors that are > specifically optimized for the weirdities of Windoze! Multiple types of halt instruction, you mean? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jan 1 22:18:15 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 21:18:15 -0700 Subject: Sorry (Was: Language-specific CPUs In-Reply-To: <495D92CE.90306@gmail.com> References: <0KCS00A8P2TXXQH7@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> <20090101145851.U38643@shell.lmi.net> <20090101154730.L38643@shell.lmi.net> <495D92CE.90306@gmail.com> Message-ID: <495D9587.8060206@jetnet.ab.ca> Jules Richardson wrote: > Multiple types of halt instruction, you mean? More the 6800 version - Halt and catch fire ... From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Jan 1 22:47:05 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 20:47:05 -0800 Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: <003301c96c47$fb9036a0$0201a8c0@hal9000> References: <0KCS00A8P2TXXQH7@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> <003301c96c47$fb9036a0$0201a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 11:34:37 -0800 > The FORTH chip I've used is the Rockwell R65F11P running RSC-FORTH ver 1.5 > in a little robot dog called " FIFO ". FORTH is great for controlling robots > and telescopes but kinda sucks for number crunching. > > Best regards, Steven > Hi An interesting statement. The Forth Chip, RTX2000, was often added to machines to be specifically used to enhance the number crunching ability of systems. I suspect your thinking is related to the fact that most cheep/free Forth's lacked floating point, built in. I do have to admit that a single stack is a little clumsy for multi dimensional vector operations. Still, there is always the possibility of using some some type of local variables ( most professional Forths support locals ). Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Send e-mail anywhere. No map, no compass. http://windowslive.com/oneline/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_anywhere_122008 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jan 1 23:45:30 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 22:45:30 -0700 Subject: Ot - ebay listing - 8 bit development In-Reply-To: References: <0KCS00A8P2TXXQH7@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> <003301c96c47$fb9036a0$0201a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <495DA9FA.40003@jetnet.ab.ca> Item number: 110331830581 Motorola M68HC705KICS in-circuit simulator From brain at jbrain.com Fri Jan 2 00:38:58 2009 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 00:38:58 -0600 Subject: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <495DB682.6070207@jbrain.com> Tony Duell wrote: >>> I don;t know how much firmware space you have, but it would be nice if at >>> least Amigo and SS/80 could be fitted in together with a jumper/switch to >>> select between them. I'd also suggest some kind of configuration >>> switch-thingy to select the drive size -- some HP machines moan if the >>> drive is not the one they're expecting... >>> >>> >>> >> Anything is possible. >> > > ... except skiing through a revolving door :-) > > More seriously, there must be a limit to the code size. > The unit I am using has 128kB of space, of which I am using 4kB for a bootloader and 51K so far for uIEC DOS. But, a HPIB/GPIB based unit can dispense with things like D64 images and such, so I think there may be plenty of room. There are provisions for 3 switch inputs, which could be used for drive and interface selection. It *might* be possible to load everything into one firmware image, but I think it'd be best to keep the CBM/non-CBM stuff separate. > All signals are bidirectional (although, unless you intend to be a > controller, you don't ened to be able to drive some of them). Some devices > drive them with totem-poll drivers, others open-collector (with passive > termination). There are arguements in favour of either for particular > applications. > > -tony > I'm planning on OC outputs. My idea is to make the ATA (IDE) interface do double duty. As I look at the signal table for ATA, I notice a few unused states: /CS0 & /CS1 = IEEE CS A0 selects data or control lines READ selects a read WRITE selects a write I'll probably use the 75160/75161 ($4.00 for SOIC, $2.80 for DIP for the two ICs), though I prefer '245s for the inputs and TPIC6B273s for the outputs. (3.40+.82 = 4.42 for the 4 ICs). A single '138 should decode what I need from the IDE control signals. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Jan 2 01:13:26 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 23:13:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: new version of Overbite for Firefox Message-ID: <200901020713.n027DQNV008972@floodgap.com> For those people who are using my Overbite add-on to surf the friendly holes of Gopherspace, there is now an updated version that fixes a glitch with XML files (including SVG). This add-on includes a "dotless" filter to remove the trailing period that many servers send, such that they won't barf anymore. There are also some various small custodial thingies. This will be the last version for Firefox 2. http://gopher.floodgap.com/overbite gopher://gopher.floodgap.com/1/overbite -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Reality is when it finally happens to you, too. ---------------------------- From nierveze at radio-astronomie.com Thu Jan 1 15:50:02 2009 From: nierveze at radio-astronomie.com (nierveze) Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2009 22:50:02 +0100 Subject: T-11 (was Re: PDP-11/70 cache memory) References: <002101c96c2a$02369e90$06a3dbb0$@com> <495D1D5F.6010803@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <000f01c96c5a$ea13ea80$04000005@pc> hello ,I do not very often come to this list ,first best wishes to all ,then, about pdp11 micro processor ,it is really easy to buy new in russia pdp11 processors made by a company called angstom ,or used ones from ebay (simply look for pdp-11),the documentation is fully available ,also are the schematics of the bk0010 ,a 'toy' that uses this processor,and speaks focal,basic and assembler.They are not t11,but rather 11/03 compatible,some version have fpu. To find the documentation go to the google groups for bk0010.You will find lots of things ,of course alas ,text is in russian ,I do not speak russian ,but electronics is everywhere the same,and electronic translators work quite well.The people of this group mostly in russia are very friendly ,and could be of help ,they helped me in understanding some things about those machines,they are porting a small unix (bkunix) on it.There are also correspondance tables between russian ic and the ones we use commonly ,do you need more details? thanks best regards alain nierveze ----- Message d'origine ----- De : ? : "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Envoy? : jeudi 1 janvier 2009 20:45 Objet : Re: T-11 (was Re: PDP-11/70 cache memory) > Bob Armstrong wrote: > > > I think it'd be fun too, and if somebody else made one I'd buy one, but as > > a product - > > > > - there's no legal software you can run on the T11 (and no, RT11 isn't > > legal!) > > - there's no lights and switches front panel option for the T11 > > - there's no source for T11 chips except to steal them from old hardware > > like RQDX3s, etc > > Yes you can do it legally ... IMPORT from behind the IRON CURTIAN. :) > > > Bob > > > > From bqt at softjar.se Thu Jan 1 16:46:37 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 23:46:37 +0100 Subject: Memory/cache on the 11/70 In-Reply-To: <200901012152.n01LpoOp022035@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901012152.n01LpoOp022035@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <495D47CD.9000207@softjar.se> Guy Sotomayor wrote: > On Dec 31, 2008, at 6:14 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> Remember, SETASI did this on a hex card something like 20 years ago, >> if not more. Most of the area was probably memory chips, which can >> be reduced extremely much by now. > > Actually, they used some surface mount for the memory chips. The > memory was pretty dense on that board but certainly not the majority > of the area. Still, the level of integration today is much higher. So if it could be done 20 years ago, it should definitely not be a problem today. >> And to make a few comments on other stuff that's been mentioned. >> >> You don't seem to appreciate the speed of things on the memory bus. >> A read cycle form the MK11 was typically something like 600ns, and >> could be as much as 1200ns (when error correction was required), if >> I remember right. Write was just as bad, while modify was worse. The >> max speed possible is still much lower than 150 ns, which is what >> the CPU will run at when you have cache hits (assuming my memory is >> right). There is setups, handshakes and signal propagations on a big >> bus involved. > > I thought that was driven by the memory and not the memory bus. There > appear to be some minimum timings (50ns & 100ns pulses) but from what > I could tell from the docs, the speed was dictated by the MK11s and > not necessarily the memory bus. Of course there are deskew times as > well. I'll have to go into it in more detail though. There are built in limitation in the bus which always will cause it to be much slower than running against cache. This should be obvious when we talk about an asynchronous bus. You have a protocol with handshakes and acknowledges that goes back and forth for each memory access. And each of those phases of the protocol needs a minimum time. Of course, the 600ns minimum times of the MK11 are are partially because of the limitations of the MK11, but exactly how much you should blame each half for is unknown. After all, the access times for the memory chips in the MK11 box are not anywhere near 600ns. > If this were 15-20 years ago, I'd agree that speed would be a > principle concern, but space and power seem to be more important these > days. Given that this solution (just like the PEP-70/Hypercache) is > completely reversible I don't see a fundamental problem with this > approach. Me neither. As I said before, if someone wants to do it, I'll definitely not try to prevent it. But it's not something that I find particularly interesting myself. > I mostly do this stuff out of interest in preserving the systems in as > much of a runnable state as possible. All of the the 11/70s I > acquired over the past few years have been CPUs only. There have been > no memory boxes (or peripherals of any kind). I haven't been > particularly worried about this issue since I also managed to acquire > a fair number of PEP-70's & Hypercaches. But I suspect there may be > other people out there that aren't as fortunate and want to run an > 11/70 without having to have large numbers of racks. I don't worry > too much about space/power since I am restoring a 2065 after all and > 11's pale in comparison (but I'm also planning to do a memory > replacement for that too which is where I discovered the SSRAMs since > they are the perfect geometry for a '10). Well, both the 11/70s around here have enough memory as it is, so that if anything, it's the speedup that I'd be interested in. Power...? Well, we have two -2060s, as well as two VAX-8650 around as well. Compared to those, the 11/70s are nothing. :-) The biggest power consumer is the memory system of the DEC-20 by the way. It uses a linear power supply... Heavy as hell as well. :-) (I couldn't possibly talk you out of a HC-70/PEP-70 combo would I? Anything you might want in return?) >> 70ns memory will definitely be sufficient for whatever we would >> design. > > I plan on using 200Mhz SSRAMs 'cause they're relatively easy to > interface to. Of course, this is way overkill (5ns memory access > times) for this but they're cheap (~$8/ea and only 2 would be > needed). I probably won't clock it that fast. I figure something on > the order of a 40MHz base clock (25ns) would give me enough > granularity for any timing that would need to be done. Definitely overkill. But there is nothing wrong with overkill, as long as it don't cost a lot extra. >> I very much doubt that we'd have any problems getting it all into >> one or two cards. >> One advantage of replacing the cache is that then we'd definitely >> just talk TTL. No buses with drivers at all. >> Much simpler and cheaper from that point of view. > > The driver/receivers are my principle concern. I did find a bus > transceiver last night that's open-collector on one side and tri-state > on the other. That simplifies things *alot* if it's compatible > (though I suspect that with a 4-8" run of cables almost anything would > work). Now if I could just find one that was LVTTL on the tri-state > side I'd be happy (it would eliminate level shifters). :-) :-) >> Absolutely best would of course be if we could find drawings for the >> HC-70/PEP-70 combination, and use those as the basis for a design, >> and just improve by using current available technology. > > That would be ideal. However, does anyone have drawings for the > MK11? The most I could find was the tech manual on Bitsavers. I > mainly want to understand the transceivers a bit more. I think I have the drawings somewhere, along with a bunch of manuals that aren't on bitsavers either. One of these years I really should try to get it scanned, or something... (Along with a bunch of other documentation that I have lying around for various DEC stuff...) And as someone else said, the MJ11 drawings should also be good for the information you're asking for. (And yes, I've kept one real MJ11 around, just for nostalgia. But it's not hooked up.) I also have some third party memory boxes. I think they were made by Plessey. You could try find something from there as well. Johnny From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Jan 1 16:55:18 2009 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 17:55:18 -0500 Subject: T-11 (was Re: PDP-11/70 cache memory) Message-ID: <0KCT00ATKEBFXRM9@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: T-11 (was Re: PDP-11/70 cache memory) > From: "Bob Armstrong" > Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 08:00:03 -0800 > To: > >>bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >>PS. Now only if BOB could make a PDP 11 kit . :( > > I think it'd be fun too, and if somebody else made one I'd buy one, but as >a product - > > - there's no legal software you can run on the T11 (and no, RT11 isn't >legal!) Forth, CP/M68 could be compiled for it. I'm sure TinyBasic can be done from Dave Dunfields TB in C. the nice part is anyone with a PDP11, LSI11 or sim (including Ersatz-11) can build an image and test it. > - there's no lights and switches front panel option for the T11 It a micro much like 8085 so yes it can be done. But a small SBC with 32kw ram, 2kw rom and some serial IO is a tiny thing. > - there's no source for T11 chips except to steal them from old hardware >like RQDX3s, etc > That's a bit harder but far from impossible. considering DEC used them in Falcon boards, and the the qbus slave (kxt21?), Vt240/241 series, and the storage hub (something mumble50). Allison >Bob From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Jan 2 01:29:34 2009 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 08:29:34 +0100 Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: <016701c96c1f$d32fc900$46fea8c0@DeskJara> References: <200812312127.mBVLR8PQ014734@floodgap.com> <016701c96c1f$d32fc900$46fea8c0@DeskJara> Message-ID: <20090102082934.e561f117.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Thu, 1 Jan 2009 12:45:43 -0200 "Alexandre Souza" wrote: > AVR microcontrollers are said optimized for C, but there is an > excellent assembler, the AVR Studio. They are "optimized for C" in the sense that there architecture makes it easy to implement C. (Flat memory, lots of registers, stack ...) I did a project in AVR assembler. AVRs are much easier to assembler code then the i8051. (The i8051 is a braindead, awkward POS. A typical intel design... I used it once and will never again.) Today I do all my uC hacking with avr-gcc. The oposit may be the PIC. Due to the PIC architecture a C implementation is a bit tricky. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 2 01:30:21 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 02:30:21 -0500 Subject: T-11 (was Re: PDP-11/70 cache memory) In-Reply-To: <0KCT00ATKEBFXRM9@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0KCT00ATKEBFXRM9@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On Jan 1, 2009, at 5:55 PM, Allison wrote: >> - there's no source for T11 chips except to steal them from old >> hardware >> like RQDX3s, etc >> > That's a bit harder but far from impossible. considering DEC used > them in > Falcon boards, and the the qbus slave (kxt21?), Vt240/241 series, > and the > storage hub (something mumble50). Do you mean the HSC50? If memory serves, it's based on the F-11, not the T-11. Later HSCs (70, 90, etc) were based on the J-11. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 2 01:32:57 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 02:32:57 -0500 Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: References: <0KCS00A8P2TXXQH7@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> <003301c96c47$fb9036a0$0201a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: On Jan 1, 2009, at 11:47 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > An interesting statement. The Forth Chip, RTX2000, was often added > to machines to be specifically used to enhance the number crunching > ability of systems. I have a couple of Harris RTX2001 chips and some dev info. I've been meaning to do something with them but haven't gotten anywhere yet. They should be fun. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 2 02:15:42 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 00:15:42 -0800 Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: <20090102082934.e561f117.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <200812312127.mBVLR8PQ014734@floodgap.com>, <016701c96c1f$d32fc900$46fea8c0@DeskJara>, <20090102082934.e561f117.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <495D5CAE.4185.2061A3B4@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Jan 2009 at 8:29, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Thu, 1 Jan 2009 12:45:43 -0200 > "Alexandre Souza" wrote: > > > AVR microcontrollers are said optimized for C, but there is an > > excellent assembler, the AVR Studio. > They are "optimized for C" in the sense that there architecture makes > it easy to implement C. (Flat memory, lots of registers, stack ...) I > did a project in AVR assembler. AVRs are much easier to assembler code > then the i8051. (The i8051 is a braindead, awkward POS. A typical intel > design... I used it once and will never again.) Today I do all my uC > hacking with avr-gcc. The oposit may be the PIC. Due to the PIC > architecture a C implementation is a bit tricky. Perhaps compared to an 8051, and a PIC, but literal constants in program memory have their own addressing problems (LPM uses twice the program space address and is the only access to program memory). Since SP is in I/O space and not register space, it takes extra instructions to perform stack-relative addressing (got to get SP into X, Y, or Z) for stack-local variables, etc. Compare that with the TI MSP430. 16 16-bit registers, PC is R0, SP is R1, Status is R2, R3 is a "constant generator" and the rest are uncommitted. Von Neumann architecture, 7 addressing modes... The 8051 is a little clumsy, but a genius compared to, say, the 8x300 uC. But C can probably be implemented on any binary uC, given enough ugliness and memory. Cheers, Chuck From lehmann at ans-netz.de Fri Jan 2 04:21:54 2009 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 11:21:54 +0100 Subject: What kind of IC is this - part two In-Reply-To: <495D4C75.8020900@philpem.me.uk> References: <20090101202915.56b17832.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <062801c96c58$e38f21e0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> <495CD390.18453.1E49DF16@cclist.sydex.com> <495D4C75.8020900@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <20090102112154.e2dc19f5.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Philip Pemberton wrote: > I'm not Oliver, but it looks like it's this board: > > > The delay line is 5th IC down, 2nd from the left. > > Based on the rest of the photos in the "S8000" album (and the screen-print on > the PCB), I'm inclined to think it's a Zilog System 8000 (S8000) ECC > controller board. > > More info here: Good digging up - and all is completly right ;) I just thought that posting a photo where the IC can be seen without having to look at the big version of the photo (bandwith... ;)) suits better... -- Oliver Lehmann http://www.pofo.de/ http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri Jan 2 05:39:18 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 11:39:18 +0000 Subject: T-11 (was Re: PDP-11/70 cache memory) In-Reply-To: <0KCT00ATKEBFXRM9@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0KCT00ATKEBFXRM9@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <495DFCE6.1070200@gjcp.net> Allison wrote: >> Subject: T-11 (was Re: PDP-11/70 cache memory) >> From: "Bob Armstrong" >> Date: Thu, 01 Jan 2009 08:00:03 -0800 >> To: >> >>> bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >>> PS. Now only if BOB could make a PDP 11 kit . :( >> I think it'd be fun too, and if somebody else made one I'd buy one, but as >> a product - >> >> - there's no legal software you can run on the T11 (and no, RT11 isn't >> legal!) > > Forth, CP/M68 could be compiled for it. I'm sure TinyBasic can be done I always fancied writing a PDP-11 Forth ;-) >> - there's no lights and switches front panel option for the T11 > > It a micro much like 8085 so yes it can be done. But a small SBC with 32kw ram, > 2kw rom and some serial IO is a tiny thing. Hang LEDs off a latch, if you want them... >> - there's no source for T11 chips except to steal them from old hardware >> like RQDX3s, etc >> > > That's a bit harder but far from impossible. considering DEC used them in > Falcon boards, and the the qbus slave (kxt21?), Vt240/241 series, and the > storage hub (something mumble50). Dare I say, clone in an FPGA? Gordon From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri Jan 2 05:52:23 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 11:52:23 +0000 Subject: Sorry (Was: Language-specific CPUs In-Reply-To: <495D92CE.90306@gmail.com> References: <0KCS00A8P2TXXQH7@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> <20090101145851.U38643@shell.lmi.net> <20090101154730.L38643@shell.lmi.net> <495D92CE.90306@gmail.com> Message-ID: <495DFFF7.2030409@gjcp.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote: >> For that matter (sorry for the mass indigestion), surely Intel is >> studying >> and doing massive statistical analyses of the relative frequency of >> different instructions > > Presumably - I expect this is common practice for all CPU manufacturers > (and what I believe fed the first RISC designs way back when) > >> If their data is real world, then such >> optimizations would ultimately result in creation of processors that are >> specifically optimized for the weirdities of Windoze! > > Multiple types of halt instruction, you mean? > There is actually a Windows hardware accelerator, which speeds things up massively. Having only four opcodes, it's very easy to program: MSB - Make Screen Blue DMH - Display Memory as Hex, optionally with cryptic messages HLT - Halt until a key is pressed, then reset SOD - Scribble On Disk, just in case any data managed to be written out before the crash. Although the microcode behind these instructions is quite complex, the simple instruction set makes it easy for the end user to use. One added advantage is that having only four opcodes makes it ideally suited to two-bit architectures. Gordon From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jan 2 06:02:19 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 07:02:19 -0500 Subject: T-11 (was Re: PDP-11/70 cache memory) In-Reply-To: References: <0KCT00ATKEBFXRM9@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <495E024B.4090100@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jan 1, 2009, at 5:55 PM, Allison wrote: >>> - there's no source for T11 chips except to steal them from old >>> hardware >>> like RQDX3s, etc >>> >> That's a bit harder but far from impossible. considering DEC used >> them in >> Falcon boards, and the the qbus slave (kxt21?), Vt240/241 series, and the >> storage hub (something mumble50). > > Do you mean the HSC50? If memory serves, it's based on the F-11, not > the T-11. Later HSCs (70, 90, etc) were based on the J-11. Verified visually just now. Peace... Sridhar From andrew at smokebelch.org Fri Jan 2 07:30:44 2009 From: andrew at smokebelch.org (Andrew Back) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 13:30:44 +0000 Subject: ID'ing Q-Bus cards. Message-ID: <20090102133044.GA5136@plum.flirble.org> I have a PDP11/53, which on inspection contains 2x M7651: - One cabled to a same-sized card made by Logica and marked 3490/300 - One cabled to a double-sized card marked 3350/304 (assuming Logica) Both these cards appear to be SCSI controllers, but does anyone know any more about them? And I'm wondering if there might be some hoops to jump through in their use, E.g. only support certain drives or require a patched O/S. Looks like one of these M7651/SCSI controller pairs is going to have to go, in order to make room for ethernet... Regards, Andrew -- Andrew Back a at smokebelch.org From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jan 2 08:12:55 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 09:12:55 -0500 Subject: Sorry (Was: Language-specific CPUs In-Reply-To: <495D92CE.90306@gmail.com> References: <0KCS00A8P2TXXQH7@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> <20090101145851.U38643@shell.lmi.net> <20090101154730.L38643@shell.lmi.net> <495D92CE.90306@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Presumably - I expect this is common practice for all CPU manufacturers > (and what I believe fed the first RISC designs way back when) Yes, it has been this way since the 1960s, certainly. -- Will From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Jan 2 10:00:31 2009 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 08:00:31 -0800 Subject: ID'ing Q-Bus cards. In-Reply-To: <20090102133044.GA5136@plum.flirble.org> References: <20090102133044.GA5136@plum.flirble.org> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90901020800h5d2f3136td3a0b44419887ca4@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jan 2, 2009 at 5:30 AM, Andrew Back wrote: > I have a PDP11/53, which on inspection contains 2x M7651: > > - One cabled to a same-sized card made by Logica and marked 3490/300 > - One cabled to a double-sized card marked 3350/304 (assuming Logica) > > Both these cards appear to be SCSI controllers, but does anyone know any > more about them? And I'm wondering if there might be some hoops to jump > through in their use, E.g. only support certain drives or require a patched > O/S. > The first reference you should check is pdp11-field-guide.txt which lists the M7651 as the DRV11-WA General-Purpose DMA Interface. You can find the manual by searching for EK-DRVWA-UG The other boards to which they are attached are most likely special purpose application boards and not any sort of general purpose SCSI controllers. From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Jan 2 10:05:04 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 08:05:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: shades of Zune: the Apple Newton 2010 problem Message-ID: <200901021605.n02G54IB017442@floodgap.com> Just in time for the New Year, except with some warning, that Newton OS 2.x will go brown and down just like the Zunes did. However, N2K isn't until 2010. Anyone a Newton hacker who wants to try to fix the now provably b0rk3d solution? Some posts of note: http://myapplenewton.blogspot.com/search/label/2010%20bug -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- A good pun is its own reword. ---------------------------------------------- From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 2 10:39:40 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 11:39:40 -0500 Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: <20090102082934.e561f117.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <200812312127.mBVLR8PQ014734@floodgap.com> <016701c96c1f$d32fc900$46fea8c0@DeskJara> <20090102082934.e561f117.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <3BED4C93-7CA3-4684-A4A0-C39FE01251A9@neurotica.com> On Jan 2, 2009, at 2:29 AM, Jochen Kunz wrote: >> AVR microcontrollers are said optimized for C, but there is an >> excellent assembler, the AVR Studio. > They are "optimized for C" in the sense that there architecture makes > it easy to implement C. (Flat memory, lots of registers, stack ...) I > did a project in AVR assembler. AVRs are much easier to assembler code > then the i8051. (The i8051 is a braindead, awkward POS. A typical > intel > design... I used it once and will never again.) Today I do all my uC > hacking with avr-gcc. The oposit may be the PIC. Due to the PIC > architecture a C implementation is a bit tricky. I dunno, I rather like the mcs51 architecture. I use it quite a bit. Far nicer than other Intel designs. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From andrew at smokebelch.org Fri Jan 2 11:43:54 2009 From: andrew at smokebelch.org (Andrew Back) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 17:43:54 +0000 Subject: ID'ing Q-Bus cards. In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90901020800h5d2f3136td3a0b44419887ca4@mail.gmail.com> References: <20090102133044.GA5136@plum.flirble.org> <1e1fc3e90901020800h5d2f3136td3a0b44419887ca4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090102174354.GC5136@plum.flirble.org> On (08:00 02/01/09), Glen Slick wrote: > On Fri, Jan 2, 2009 at 5:30 AM, Andrew Back wrote: > > I have a PDP11/53, which on inspection contains 2x M7651: > > > > - One cabled to a same-sized card made by Logica and marked 3490/300 > > - One cabled to a double-sized card marked 3350/304 (assuming Logica) > > > > Both these cards appear to be SCSI controllers, but does anyone know any > > more about them? And I'm wondering if there might be some hoops to jump > > through in their use, E.g. only support certain drives or require a patched > > O/S. > > > > The first reference you should check is pdp11-field-guide.txt which > lists the M7651 as the DRV11-WA General-Purpose DMA Interface. You > can find the manual by searching for EK-DRVWA-UG > > The other boards to which they are attached are most likely special > purpose application boards and not any sort of general purpose SCSI > controllers. The only other board I've not ID'ed is an Emulex CS-041021, and the machine was hooked-up to another cabinet containing a Fujitsu M2263SA SCSI drive. The Logica boards terminate on the cab at 50 pin D types, one male and one female. The Emulex terminates at a 34 pin IDC connector. Andrew -- Andrew Back a at smokebelch.org From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Jan 2 12:50:56 2009 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 10:50:56 -0800 Subject: ID'ing Q-Bus cards. In-Reply-To: <20090102174354.GC5136@plum.flirble.org> References: <20090102133044.GA5136@plum.flirble.org> <1e1fc3e90901020800h5d2f3136td3a0b44419887ca4@mail.gmail.com> <20090102174354.GC5136@plum.flirble.org> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90901021050u7ad2fc4ahf47e859e21cdee4@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jan 2, 2009 at 9:43 AM, Andrew Back wrote: > > The only other board I've not ID'ed is an Emulex CS-041021, and the machine > was hooked-up to another cabinet containing a Fujitsu M2263SA SCSI drive. > The Logica boards terminate on the cab at 50 pin D types, one male and one > female. The Emulex terminates at a 34 pin IDC connector. > pdp11-field-guide.txt lists the CS04 as an Emulex 16-64-line RS-232/422 communications controller. Emulates 2-8 DHV11s. From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Jan 2 13:18:40 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 11:18:40 -0800 Subject: More ID questions: Centronics 503 printer Message-ID: I've had this printer for a while, but I've never found a reference to it in any literature. It bears the legend 'Centronics 503' on the front. It's a wide carriage tractor-feed character printer on a pedestal stand, and actually works pretty well. It's that slightly-orange yellow that I remember Data General being fond of for a while. One of the other things about it: I have a full case of ribbons for it. I've been unable to find a cross-reference that might tell me if there is any other printer that takes these. Any suggestions? -- Ian UNIX is user friendly. It's just selective about who its friends are. Ian S. King, Vintage Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. http://www.pdpplanet.org From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Jan 2 13:22:33 2009 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 20:22:33 +0100 Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: <3BED4C93-7CA3-4684-A4A0-C39FE01251A9@neurotica.com> References: <200812312127.mBVLR8PQ014734@floodgap.com> <016701c96c1f$d32fc900$46fea8c0@DeskJara> <20090102082934.e561f117.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <3BED4C93-7CA3-4684-A4A0-C39FE01251A9@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20090102202233.ec36f876.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Fri, 2 Jan 2009 11:39:40 -0500 Dave McGuire wrote: [i8051] > Far nicer than other Intel designs. This is easy, due to the awkward braindamage of typical intel designs. Did we already talk about iAPX432? ;-) Even when coding assembler, an AVR is much nicer to code for then an i8051. I did only a single project in i8051 assembler. It was disgusting. Then I saw the light of AVR assembler and never looked back. That was about 10 years ago. Now we have avr-gcc and so I don't care much about the actual uC architecture. Today the availability of a good, free C compiler toolchain + cheap and simple ISP programmer is more important to me. avr-gcc + avr-gdb + avr-libc + avrdude = fun. Lots of it. :-) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 2 13:25:22 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 19:25:22 +0000 (GMT) Subject: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: <495DB682.6070207@jbrain.com> from "Jim Brain" at Jan 2, 9 00:38:58 am Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > >>> I don;t know how much firmware space you have, but it would be nice if at > >>> least Amigo and SS/80 could be fitted in together with a jumper/switch to > >>> select between them. I'd also suggest some kind of configuration > >>> switch-thingy to select the drive size -- some HP machines moan if the > >>> drive is not the one they're expecting... > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> Anything is possible. > >> > > > > ... except skiing through a revolving door :-) > > > > More seriously, there must be a limit to the code size. > > > The unit I am using has 128kB of space, of which I am using 4kB for a I don't know how code size for that processor compares to similar code on the 6809 (which always stuck me as being memory-efficient), but I would think you had enough space for both of the HP protocols. > bootloader and 51K so far for uIEC DOS. But, a HPIB/GPIB based unit can > dispense with things like D64 images and such, so I think there may be > plenty of room. There are provisions for 3 switch inputs, which could > be used for drive and interface selection. It *might* be possible to If oyou use one switch to select between SS/80 and Amigo (protocol), that leaves 2 switches for drive type. Not really enough. And what are you going to do about sleecting the HPIB primary address (HP units normally had 3 switches for this, allowing addresses from 0 to 7 only). > load everything into one firmware image, but I think it'd be best to > keep the CBM/non-CBM stuff separate. I would agree. While I have both sorts of machine here, I wouldn't object to buying/building 2 units, one for each :-). The other thing to consider wouldf be Tektronix 405x format. I think those could use HPIB drives. Philip knows more, I think. > I'm planning on OC outputs. I beleive that makes it slower, but anyway... > > My idea is to make the ATA (IDE) interface do double duty. As I look at > the signal table for ATA, I notice a few unused states: > > /CS0 & /CS1 = IEEE CS > A0 selects data or control lines > READ selects a read > WRITE selects a write > > I'll probably use the 75160/75161 ($4.00 for SOIC, $2.80 for DIP for the Are those still being made? I wouldn't want to design round a chip that's in short supply. FWIW, I've had some early HP HPIB units on the bench recently, and HP used '38s as driers (open collector) and '14s as receivers (schmitt trigger inputs). Of course using thsoe put the package count up. > two ICs), though I prefer '245s for the inputs and TPIC6B273s for the > outputs. (3.40+.82 = 4.42 for the 4 ICs). > > A single '138 should decode what I need from the IDE control signals. I would guess you'd need latches and buffers between the IDE us and the IEEE-488 chips. -tony From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Fri Jan 2 13:49:51 2009 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 20:49:51 +0100 Subject: What kind of IC is this In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20081231115327.074af3a0@mail.threedee.com> References: <20081230193428.69f05be5.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <495A8EFD.7060208@philpem.me.uk> <20081230223036.d5a23737.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <495AAB50.6080507@philpem.me.uk> <2C535D4C-0F9D-4FDC-BEAB-283BE688F3D7@neurotica.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20081231115327.074af3a0@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: <20090102204951.c3a2aaf5.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 31 Dec 2008 11:54:53 -0600 John Foust wrote: > He would bring this bad > part -- a capacitor, a pot, a transistor, an IC, or whatever -- over > to the vise and lay it on the anvil part. Then he would calmly, > methodically beat it with a hammer until the smallest remaining part > was indistinguishable from the dust on the floor. This shows how to fix a unfixable camera lens that way: http://www.hermes.net.au/bayling/repair.html -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Jan 2 14:30:25 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 14:30:25 -0600 Subject: Z80 instruction fetch mechanism Message-ID: <495E7961.7030005@gmail.com> Someone asked this over on the Sinclair group a short while ago, but I suddenly thought that someone here might know... Basically they were wondering what the internals of the Z80's instruction fetch were, given that some instructions are multiple bytes in length, but there's only a single-byte instruction register. I theorised that control in the Z80 is all just a state machine, so multiple instruction bytes presumably advance things to a new state (and what's left in the IR during execution is just one byte from a multi-byte instruction) - but it sounds like the OP was wondering if anyone knew the exact mechanism (basically, has the design of the state machine ever been documented anywhere). (Given that I'm on a 'homebrew CPU' trip right now, I'm rather curious, too :-) Quite possibly this level of detail's never been made publicly available, but I figure someone here may have had close involvement with Zilog and know more. Online resources cover the overall internal architecture, but just 'black box' the control logic section (including the IR). cheers Jules From innfoclassics at gmail.com Fri Jan 2 14:35:23 2009 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 12:35:23 -0800 Subject: ID'ing Q-Bus cards. In-Reply-To: <20090102133044.GA5136@plum.flirble.org> References: <20090102133044.GA5136@plum.flirble.org> Message-ID: > I have a PDP11/53, which on inspection contains 2x M7651: > > - One cabled to a same-sized card made by Logica and marked 3490/300 > - One cabled to a double-sized card marked 3350/304 (assuming Logica) > > Both these cards appear to be SCSI controllers, but does anyone know any > more about them? And I'm wondering if there might be some hoops to jump > through in their use, E.g. only support certain drives or require a patched > O/S. The 3490 is an IBM Tape Drive Subsystem and the 3350 is an IBM DASD disk drive. both usually hooked up to IBM mainframes. Neither are SCSI. We went through a lot of these peripherals in the1990s. The last 3350 we got went to a collector. The 3550s were usually controlled by a 3880 which could handle up to 4 of them, if I remember correctly. It looks to me that the cards were for hooking up to these IBM peripherals. Interesting set of cards. I have never heard of them. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jan 2 14:53:40 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 15:53:40 -0500 Subject: ID'ing Q-Bus cards. In-Reply-To: References: <20090102133044.GA5136@plum.flirble.org> Message-ID: > We went through a lot of these peripherals in the1990s. The last 3350 > we got went to a collector. The 3550s were usually controlled by a > 3880 which could handle up to 4 of them, if I remember correctly. 3350s were originally controlled by the 3830. I do not think all 3880s could control 3350s - there may have been a microcode upgrade involved. I am always on the lookout of a 3880 and 3380s. And more 3350s, for that matter. -- Will From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Jan 2 18:50:18 2009 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 18:50:18 -0600 Subject: I scanned some stuff Message-ID: <51ea77730901021650x58c2e983je1c6b66fffb46cbd@mail.gmail.com> I have started up a document archive made up of stuff I've had sitting around the house and storage that needs to go. Here it is: http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/ I'm trying to make sure I don't waste time by scanning stuff that's already out there. Consequently, I'm probably also scanning things no one will ever want. But hey, archiving is archiving. I'm starting with ringbound docs I don't have to destroy to scan, or things I didn't consider all that valuable. Stuff that I don't destroy or recycle will be sold or (more likely) given away. Top of that pile right now is the Atari 400/800 BASIC Reference Guide and the 410 Operator's Guide. They are free for the cost of shipping from 60074. They are together in a lovely "Atari Home Computers" ring binder and not all that light. Enjoy, and more to come! -j -- silent700.blogspot.com Retrocomputing and collecting in the Chicago area: http://chiclassiccomp.org From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Jan 2 20:10:16 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 18:10:16 -0800 Subject: More ID questions: Centronics 503 printer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > From: IanK at vulcan.com > > I've had this printer for a while, but I've never found a reference to it in any literature. It bears the legend 'Centronics 503' on the front. It's a wide carriage tractor-feed character printer on a pedestal stand, and actually works pretty well. It's that slightly-orange yellow that I remember Data General being fond of for a while. > > One of the other things about it: I have a full case of ribbons for it. I've been unable to find a cross-reference that might tell me if there is any other printer that takes these. Any suggestions? -- Ian > > > > > Hi I know what a 603 is but not a 503. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Send e-mail anywhere. No map, no compass. http://windowslive.com/oneline/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_anywhere_122008 From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jan 2 20:51:21 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 02:51:21 +0000 (GMT) Subject: I scanned some stuff In-Reply-To: <51ea77730901021650x58c2e983je1c6b66fffb46cbd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <914563.60491.qm@web23404.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Thanks for that. I had a look incase there was anything of interest and found a PDF of the Toy Bizarre manual (C64). I actually have the Spectrum version, without a manual - it was either part of the 6 game lightgun Spectrum pack (sold here in the UK in the late 80's/early 90's), or the 30 games boxset I got. I can't remember which right now. It was a very fun game, but it had a habit of crashing quite regularly so it didn't get played too much. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Sat, 3/1/09, Jason T wrote: From: Jason T Subject: I scanned some stuff To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Saturday, 3 January, 2009, 12:50 AM I have started up a document archive made up of stuff I've had sitting around the house and storage that needs to go. Here it is: http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/ I'm trying to make sure I don't waste time by scanning stuff that's already out there. Consequently, I'm probably also scanning things no one will ever want. But hey, archiving is archiving. I'm starting with ringbound docs I don't have to destroy to scan, or things I didn't consider all that valuable. Stuff that I don't destroy or recycle will be sold or (more likely) given away. Top of that pile right now is the Atari 400/800 BASIC Reference Guide and the 410 Operator's Guide. They are free for the cost of shipping from 60074. They are together in a lovely "Atari Home Computers" ring binder and not all that light. Enjoy, and more to come! -j -- silent700.blogspot.com Retrocomputing and collecting in the Chicago area: http://chiclassiccomp.org From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 2 20:51:58 2009 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2009 02:51:58 +0000 Subject: ACS Altos 3068 Message-ID: <495ED2CE.4010201@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Hi there, Am I the only person on the planet that still has one of these machines ? The perticular example I have has 4M of ram and a 70M disk, and is running SysV unix. Acording to the documentation and the back of the machine, it has a SCSI-1 interface however I have never been able to get this working. I think I heard somewhere that the SCSI required a later version of the OS, I'm not sure exactly what version of unix I have, looking at my /etc/issue, seems to be SysV R2.2, does anyone have a later version ? Also I have heard that the source code for the OS was available, would anyone have such a beast ? Cheers. Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Jan 2 20:57:22 2009 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 20:57:22 -0600 Subject: I scanned some stuff In-Reply-To: <914563.60491.qm@web23404.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <51ea77730901021650x58c2e983je1c6b66fffb46cbd@mail.gmail.com> <914563.60491.qm@web23404.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730901021857n1d3f73adj3b282262611ff75c@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jan 2, 2009 at 8:51 PM, Andrew Burton wrote: > > Thanks for that. > > I had a look incase there was anything of interest and found a PDF of the Toy Bizarre manual (C64). I actually have the Spectrum version, without a manual - it was either part of the 6 game lightgun Spectrum pack (sold here in the UK in the late 80's/early 90's), or the 30 games boxset I got. I can't remember which right now. It was a very fun game, but it had a habit of crashing quite regularly so it didn't get played too much. You must have browsed it seconds after I uploaded it :) It's a small archive now, but there is much to add as long as I have access to a decent scanner. I'm mostly happy with the php file browser script I'm using there. One feature I'd like is an RSS feed of new additions, as is found on Bitsavers. Guess I'll just have to learn to write one.... I'm doing the C64 Mach5 cart manual now. -j From brain at jbrain.com Fri Jan 2 21:51:07 2009 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 21:51:07 -0600 Subject: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <495EE0AB.7060401@jbrain.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> Tony Duell wrote: >> > If oyou use one switch to select between SS/80 and Amigo (protocol), that > leaves 2 switches for drive type. Not really enough. And what are you > going to do about sleecting the HPIB primary address (HP units normally > had 3 switches for this, allowing addresses from 0 to 7 only). > Not sure. I do have the ability to add an entire latch of switches on the IDE bus (like I am adding the IEEE-488 support.) On the current unit, you send commands to the unit through the command channel to change such things, so maybe that is another option (pick the command set from the front, then issue a command to pick a device type and choose an alternte address). On the latter, the uIEC supports the same idea. It boots as device #10, and you can modify it via software. So, you put it alone on the bus, issue a command to change the number, saves it in EEPROM, and then you plug in the rest of the units. > Are those still being made? I wouldn't want to design round a chip that's > in short supply. > Actually, they are. When I was composing the email, I initially wrote about using latches and transceivers, but then decided (with this crowd) I should do a bit more investigation before I posted. Along the say, I found the 75XXX units, and they weren't that bad in price. But, right after I rewrote the msg and sent it, I realized that I'd still need 2 latches to hold the outputs for the 16 bits of IEEE data, and another latch to save off the TE state (on the 75XXX ICs). As well, I'd be locked into IEEE 488 usage. So, I scrapped my idea, and went back to my original ideas, TPIC6B273s and 74LS245s. It's the same price, and I could support more interfaces. > FWIW, I've had some early HP HPIB units on the bench recently, and HP > used '38s as driers (open collector) and '14s as receivers (schmitt > trigger inputs). Of course using thsoe put the package count up. > '38s are somewhat iffy, in my mind. MC3446 and the 75XXX line sink 100mA, and the '38 is 48, max. Coupled with the higher parts count (4 '38s, plus 2 '374s = 6 parts as opposed to 2), the price is only marginally better (3.40 versus 2.40). If the solution finds value outside of the vintage community, I could see one on a long GPIB chain, and I'd hate to fail in that case. With 150mA sink, I'll be the last one on the bus to fail. Jim From frustum at pacbell.net Fri Jan 2 22:09:36 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 22:09:36 -0600 Subject: Z80 instruction fetch mechanism In-Reply-To: <495E7961.7030005@gmail.com> References: <495E7961.7030005@gmail.com> Message-ID: <495EE500.4030201@pacbell.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > > Someone asked this over on the Sinclair group a short while ago, but I > suddenly thought that someone here might know... > > Basically they were wondering what the internals of the Z80's > instruction fetch were, given that some instructions are multiple bytes > in length, but there's only a single-byte instruction register. > > I theorised that control in the Z80 is all just a state machine, so > multiple instruction bytes presumably advance things to a new state (and > what's left in the IR during execution is just one byte from a > multi-byte instruction) - but it sounds like the OP was wondering if > anyone knew the exact mechanism (basically, has the design of the state > machine ever been documented anywhere). > > (Given that I'm on a 'homebrew CPU' trip right now, I'm rather curious, > too :-) > > Quite possibly this level of detail's never been made publicly > available, but I figure someone here may have had close involvement with > Zilog and know more. Online resources cover the overall internal > architecture, but just 'black box' the control logic section (including > the IR). Rodnay Zaks had a fat Z80 book that went into quite some detail of the timing of the bus and mentioned a hidden "W" register, but I don't recall what that was for -- holding a byte temporarily during some do-si-do. I have the book but it is buried in the garage. I have no doubt prefix bytes, (CB, ED, DD, FD) just set a flop that modify the interpretation of subsequent fetches -- that is more economical than storing the entire byte (or two bytes in some cases). Immediates and IX/IY offsets just go right to the latch in front of the ALU. I'll try and find the book. From frustum at pacbell.net Fri Jan 2 22:31:48 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 22:31:48 -0600 Subject: Z80 instruction fetch mechanism In-Reply-To: <495EE500.4030201@pacbell.net> References: <495E7961.7030005@gmail.com> <495EE500.4030201@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <495EEA34.4030606@pacbell.net> Jim Battle wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: >> >> Someone asked this over on the Sinclair group a short while ago, but I >> suddenly thought that someone here might know... >> >> Basically they were wondering what the internals of the Z80's >> instruction fetch were, given that some instructions are multiple >> bytes in length, but there's only a single-byte instruction register. ... > Rodnay Zaks had a fat Z80 book that went into quite some detail of the > timing of the bus and mentioned a hidden "W" register, but I don't > recall what that was for -- holding a byte temporarily during some > do-si-do. I have the book but it is buried in the garage. I have a Radio Shack publication "How To Program the Z80" by Rodnay Zaks, but I'm 99% sure it was sold previously via a standard publishing house and RS just had this version with the different jacket. Chapter 2 is the one you want. It goes through an instruction fetch and exectute sequence clock phase by clock phase, and shows what happens each cycle. T1: PC Out (HL gated on to address bus) T2: PC=PC+1 T3: INST into IR, start decoding T4: decode and execute (minimum case -- more cycles needed often) He steps through these instructions LD D,C (explains that it needs 5 T states instead of four, because the register file is not dual ported) ADD A,r he shows that an extra clock phase is introduced that slows down the execution of this instruction, but really is used to start the fetch of the next instruction -- there is a slight amount of fetch/execute overlap. Figure 2.27 shows the bus activity and some internal bus activity for each 8080 instruction, cycle by cycle, lifted from an intel data book, so somewhere this information was already public. ADD A,(HL) A more complicated example. ADD A,(nnnn) This shows the use of two hidden registers, W and Z -- they are analogous to another 16b BC pair. These hold the immediate 16b address fetch, since the CPU needs to hold a 16b value for the duration of that instruction that isn't retained afterward. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 2 23:22:08 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 00:22:08 -0500 Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: <20090102202233.ec36f876.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <200812312127.mBVLR8PQ014734@floodgap.com> <016701c96c1f$d32fc900$46fea8c0@DeskJara> <20090102082934.e561f117.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <3BED4C93-7CA3-4684-A4A0-C39FE01251A9@neurotica.com> <20090102202233.ec36f876.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <3D4E0679-40E6-4271-B890-3011DB741B15@neurotica.com> On Jan 2, 2009, at 2:22 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > [i8051] >> Far nicer than other Intel designs. > This is easy, due to the awkward braindamage of typical intel designs. > Did we already talk about iAPX432? ;-) > > Even when coding assembler, an AVR is much nicer to code for then an > i8051. I did only a single project in i8051 assembler. It was > disgusting. Then I saw the light of AVR assembler and never looked > back. That was about 10 years ago. Now we have avr-gcc and so I don't > care much about the actual uC architecture. Today the availability > of a > good, free C compiler toolchain + cheap and simple ISP programmer is > more important to me. > avr-gcc + avr-gdb + avr-libc + avrdude = fun. Lots of it. :-) Many have said good things about AVR...including a few people whose opinions I value, now including you. I plan to check it out someday. For now, my "tiny" projects use PIC, my "small/medium" projects use various 8051 implementations, and my "big" projects use ARM. I will add AVR to that list when I have some time to check it out. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sat Jan 3 00:04:13 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 22:04:13 -0800 Subject: Video pinouts for Sony SMC-70G Message-ID: <495EFFDD.2020806@mail.msu.edu> Just acquired one of these bad boys and I've found very little info on it -- it appears to have two video out connectors -- a 25-pin D-sub labeled "RGB Multi Out" and an 8-pin DIN labeled "B/W Multi Out." Anyone know the pinouts of these? Any ideas what kind of monitor I can expect to use with this machine? Anyone have manuals/software archived? I've found an image of a CP/M boot disk at http://ahm.ath.cx/smc70/, but that's about it. Thanks! Josh From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sat Jan 3 00:11:56 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 22:11:56 -0800 Subject: Suggestions for VT103? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <495F01AC.7080404@mail.msu.edu> Thanks for all the good advice (from everyone) on this thread. I need to wander out and find some good wirewrap wire & the appropriate solder and I'll let you know how I fare with the solder fest :). Josh Tony Duell wrote: >> So forgive my inexperience here -- but just to make sure I'm >> understanding the changes I need to make -- is all that's necessary just >> wiring up the address lines (18-21) from slot 1, to slot 2, to slot 3, >> to slot 4? >> > > Yes, but I think it's _twice_ on each slot (the Q-bus being based round > dual-height boards). So a total of 8 points to link for each of 4 wires. > > But it is just a matter of running wires between those points and > soldering them down. > > > >> Also, just to satisfy my curiosity -- it's been mentioned by several >> people that lead-based solder is necessary -- why is this? (I think I >> > > Is there ever a good reason not to use leaded solder in homebrew stuff > and classic computer repairs (neither of which come under any RoHS > directives in the UK)? > > It is a very bad idea to mix solders, the worst way, or so I am told is > to use lead-free solder on a PCB that was originally soldered with leaded > solder (the VT103 certainly was!) The resuling lead-free solder > contaminated with a little lead produces a very poor, brittle, joint. > > >> have a spool of it somewhere that I liberated from my grandfather's >> basement some years back, but I'll have to dig it up...) >> > > This is electornic-grade resin-cored solder, I hope!. You can still buy > leaded solderm at least in the UK, fortunately. > > -tony > > > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Jan 2 02:25:32 2009 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 03:25:32 -0500 (EST) Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: <495D5CAE.4185.2061A3B4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200812312127.mBVLR8PQ014734@floodgap.com>, <016701c96c1f$d32fc900$46fea8c0@DeskJara>, <20090102082934.e561f117.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <495D5CAE.4185.2061A3B4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200901020828.DAA23487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Since SP is in I/O space and not register space, it takes extra > instructions to perform stack-relative addressing (got to get SP into > X, Y, or Z) for stack-local variables, etc. Nothing says that the hardware's stack has to be the same as the C local-variable stack, and indeed on an architecture like that it might be smarter to use the hardware's stack - the thing SP points to - only for return addresses, with local variables and arguments kept on a separate stack, maintained by the function call/return boilerplate. Of course, that means you have to keep the data stack pointer somewhere, since you can't keep it in SP for free.... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From nierveze at radio-astronomie.com Fri Jan 2 03:27:56 2009 From: nierveze at radio-astronomie.com (nierveze) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 10:27:56 +0100 Subject: T-11 (was Re: PDP-11/70 cache memory) References: <002101c96c2a$02369e90$06a3dbb0$@com><495D1D5F.6010803@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <009501c96cbc$68763ac0$04000005@pc> 'interresting' ...it depends of what you like :-)) there is a version of unix ,called bkunix , use babelfish ,it is the one that translate best http://groups.google.ru/group/bk0010/web/bkunix a version of dos called andos,and standalone languages like focal and basic (vilnius basic),assembler called mirage . schematics in djvu format and documentation are http://groups.google.ru/group/bk0010/web/schematics to read and print djvu files I use djvusolo3.1 alain ----- Message d'origine ----- De : "Adam Sampson" ? : "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Envoy? : vendredi 2 janvier 2009 01:22 Objet : Re: T-11 (was Re: PDP-11/70 cache memory) > "bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca" writes: > > > Yes you can do it legally ... IMPORT from behind the IRON CURTIAN. :) > > Does this solve the software problem too -- i.e. are there any > interesting Russian operating systems you could run on a T-11 SBC? > > -- > Adam Sampson > From chrise at pobox.com Fri Jan 2 11:17:24 2009 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 11:17:24 -0600 Subject: AMI S2350 USRT datasheet? Message-ID: <20090102171724.GD4097@n0jcf.net> Does anyone happen to have a datasheet or scans from a databook for the AMI S2350 USRT? This is a synchronous receiver/transmitter that was used in several floppy controllers-- including the Heath H17/H88-1 and a PERCOM SS-50 bus (for SWTPC 6800) system that I have. I cannot find any documents for this beast online. I also tried contacting ON Semiconductor who now own AMI but they claim to be unable to find said datasheet. It should be circa 1979, 1980 I believe... if anyone has an AMI databook from that period. Thanks. Chris -- Chris Elmquist mailto:chrise at pobox.com From jrr at flippers.com Fri Jan 2 12:44:11 2009 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Fri, 02 Jan 2009 10:44:11 -0800 Subject: AMI S2350 USRT datasheet? In-Reply-To: <20090102171724.GD4097@n0jcf.net> References: <20090102171724.GD4097@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <495E607B.20103@flippers.com> Chris Elmquist wrote: > Does anyone happen to have a datasheet or scans from a databook for the > AMI S2350 USRT? This is a synchronous receiver/transmitter that was used > in several floppy controllers-- including the Heath H17/H88-1 and a PERCOM > SS-50 bus (for SWTPC 6800) system that I have. > > I cannot find any documents for this beast online. I also tried contacting > ON Semiconductor who now own AMI but they claim to be unable to find said > datasheet. > > It should be circa 1979, 1980 I believe... if anyone has an AMI databook > from that period. > > Thanks. > > Chris > > It is shown in my copy of the AMI 1981 Catalog - pages 5-119 through 5-126 inclusive. I can scan that for you later (email me) but I am just a bit busy doing year-end books and can't get around to it for a few days. This does cover pinout and pin definitions plus timing diagrams. John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri Jan 2 19:44:20 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2009 20:44:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: Z80 instruction fetch mechanism In-Reply-To: <495E7961.7030005@gmail.com> References: <495E7961.7030005@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Jan 2009, Jules Richardson wrote: > Someone asked this over on the Sinclair group a short while ago, but I > suddenly thought that someone here might know... > > Basically they were wondering what the internals of the Z80's instruction > fetch were, given that some instructions are multiple bytes in length, but > there's only a single-byte instruction register. > > I theorised that control in the Z80 is all just a state machine, so multiple > instruction bytes presumably advance things to a new state (and what's left > in the IR during execution is just one byte from a multi-byte instruction) - > but it sounds like the OP was wondering if anyone knew the exact mechanism > (basically, has the design of the state machine ever been documented > anywhere). Wasn't the Z80 a microcoded design? -- From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 3 04:25:17 2009 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2009 10:25:17 +0000 Subject: ACS Altos 3068 In-Reply-To: <20090102.232332.16980.0@webmail02.vgs.untd.com> References: <20090102.232332.16980.0@webmail02.vgs.untd.com> Message-ID: <495F3D0D.6090207@aurigae.demon.co.uk> jeff.kaneko at juno.com wrote: > WHat's the approximate vintage of this machine? > I'm asking because many early designs (pre 1988, About the 1986-88 time frame. > or so) used non-standard 'SCSI like' interfaces > to talk to ST-506 or ESDI drives. Well the machine's drives are ST-506 MFM drives controled by a WD2010, though oddly with 16 sec/trk rather than the more normal 17, that most PC MFM interfaces used. It also has a QIC-02 60M tape drive, and a 1.2M Floppy. > The Adaptec ACB-4000 was such a device, for example. > It was marketed as a SCSI bridge, but in reality it > was closer to SASI. OMTI made similar boards, > and you could almost never sub one for the other > because of different implementations of SCSI. Yeah I have an external disk box for the RM-186 that as I believe a Xybec SASI to ST-506 board in it, I tried getting that to talk to a moden controler and it would not, though I have recently discovered that Adaptec SCSI cards don't seem to like really old drive like this which may have been part of the problem in that case. > I saying all of this because if this is true, then > attaching a modern SCSI drive will get you nowhere. Indeed, though it is labeled as SCSI on the back of the machine, and I remeber there being a similar looking SCSI chip in there to the ones in the Sun-3 systems I used to own. Cheers. Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From coredump at gifford.co.uk Sat Jan 3 08:46:39 2009 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2009 14:46:39 +0000 Subject: Z80 instruction fetch mechanism In-Reply-To: <495EEA34.4030606@pacbell.net> References: <495E7961.7030005@gmail.com> <495EE500.4030201@pacbell.net> <495EEA34.4030606@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <495F7A4F.5010901@gifford.co.uk> Jim Battle wrote: > I have a Radio Shack publication "How To Program the Z80" by Rodnay > Zaks, but I'm 99% sure it was sold previously via a standard publishing > house and RS just had this version with the different jacket. Yes, that is correct. I have both versions! The original was called "Programming the Z80" and was sold by Sybex along with "Programming the 6502" and "Programming the 6809". -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From frustum at pacbell.net Sat Jan 3 08:55:43 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2009 08:55:43 -0600 Subject: Z80 instruction fetch mechanism In-Reply-To: References: <495E7961.7030005@gmail.com> Message-ID: <495F7C6F.3050200@pacbell.net> Steven Hirsch wrote: ... > > Wasn't the Z80 a microcoded design? no! the same guy who did the 8080 layout, masatoshi shima, did the z80 layout. He also did the z8000 layout, which was much more complex, but was also not microcode, just random logic. I just found this while googling to support my answer, but i've only skimmed it - a 47 page interview with Shima, done by the CHM: http://www.ieee.org/portal/cms_docs_iportals/iportals/aboutus/history_center/oral_history/pdfs/Shima197.pdf From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sat Jan 3 09:32:34 2009 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 16:32:34 +0100 Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: <3D4E0679-40E6-4271-B890-3011DB741B15@neurotica.com> References: <200812312127.mBVLR8PQ014734@floodgap.com> <016701c96c1f$d32fc900$46fea8c0@DeskJara> <20090102082934.e561f117.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <3BED4C93-7CA3-4684-A4A0-C39FE01251A9@neurotica.com> <20090102202233.ec36f876.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> <3D4E0679-40E6-4271-B890-3011DB741B15@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20090103163234.61bd1d38.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sat, 3 Jan 2009 00:22:08 -0500 Dave McGuire wrote: > For now, my "tiny" projects use PIC, my "small/medium" projects use > various 8051 implementations, and my "big" projects use ARM. One additional advantage of AVR is the range from tiny 8 pin devices to fat QFP packages with up to a few 100 kB RAM + a few kB of EEPROM and all sorts of IO. (PWM, CAN, USB, ADC, I2C, ...) So you can replace anything below ARM with a single architekture. > I will add AVR to that list when I have some time to check it out. Call me the AVR missionary! ;-) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From frustum at pacbell.net Sat Jan 3 09:34:54 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2009 09:34:54 -0600 Subject: Z80 instruction fetch mechanism In-Reply-To: <495F7C6F.3050200@pacbell.net> References: <495E7961.7030005@gmail.com> <495F7C6F.3050200@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <495F859E.6000500@pacbell.net> Jim Battle wrote: > Steven Hirsch wrote: > ... >> >> Wasn't the Z80 a microcoded design? > > no! the same guy who did the 8080 layout, masatoshi shima, did the z80 > layout. He also did the z8000 layout, which was much more complex, but > was also not microcode, just random logic. > > I just found this while googling to support my answer, but i've only > skimmed it - a 47 page interview with Shima, done by the CHM: > > http://www.ieee.org/portal/cms_docs_iportals/iportals/aboutus/history_center/oral_history/pdfs/Shima197.pdf > > Having read more, Shima did the logic design on the 4004, 8080 and z80, and did the layout on the 8080. I've also heard he led the layout for the z8000. It is quite interesting to compare Shima's version of 4004 history and Federico Fagin's. In Fagin's version, he virtually did everything himself, with a bit of help from Shima. In Shima's version of events, he and Ted Hoff did all the spec work and design down to the transistor level, and Fagin was the guy who knew the process and layout end of things. Fagin believes Intel has tried to erase his contribution to the 4004 and later intel processors in retaliation against his starting Zilog, yet Shima also went to zilog and isn't erased, and obviously Fagin and Shima had a good enough relationship to work together at zilog for years, and Shima gives Fagin credit only for the back end of the 4004 design flow. From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sat Jan 3 09:35:42 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 13:35:42 -0200 Subject: Video pinouts for Sony SMC-70G References: <495EFFDD.2020806@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <10df01c96db9$2d58c720$46fea8c0@DeskJara> > Just acquired one of these bad boys and I've found very little info on > it -- it appears to have two video out connectors -- a 25-pin D-sub > labeled "RGB Multi Out" and an 8-pin DIN labeled "B/W Multi Out." > Anyone know the pinouts of these? Any ideas what kind of monitor I can > expect to use with this machine? Interesting machine...looks like a MSX compatible! What sound/video processor it uses? From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Jan 3 09:50:14 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 07:50:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: Video pinouts for Sony SMC-70G In-Reply-To: <10df01c96db9$2d58c720$46fea8c0@DeskJara> from Alexandre Souza at "Jan 3, 9 01:35:42 pm" Message-ID: <200901031550.n03FoFSW008568@floodgap.com> > > Just acquired one of these bad boys and I've found very little info on > > it -- it appears to have two video out connectors -- a 25-pin D-sub > > labeled "RGB Multi Out" and an 8-pin DIN labeled "B/W Multi Out." > > Anyone know the pinouts of these? Any ideas what kind of monitor I can > > expect to use with this machine? > > Interesting machine...looks like a MSX compatible! What sound/video > processor it uses? It isn't, I'm pretty sure. I don't know a great deal about it, but I saw one at VCF East and the exhibitor made pains to point out it is NOT one of the Sony HitBit-type machines (which are their nominal MSX compatiboxen). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If you want divine justice, die. -- Nick Seldon ---------------------------- From frustum at pacbell.net Sat Jan 3 10:31:31 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2009 10:31:31 -0600 Subject: Z80 instruction fetch mechanism In-Reply-To: <495F859E.6000500@pacbell.net> References: <495E7961.7030005@gmail.com> <495F7C6F.3050200@pacbell.net> <495F859E.6000500@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <495F92E3.4040907@pacbell.net> Jim Battle wrote: > Jim Battle wrote: >> Steven Hirsch wrote: >> ... >>> >>> Wasn't the Z80 a microcoded design? >> >> no! the same guy who did the 8080 layout, masatoshi shima, did the >> z80 layout. He also did the z8000 layout, which was much more >> complex, but was also not microcode, just random logic. >> >> I just found this while googling to support my answer, but i've only >> skimmed it - a 47 page interview with Shima, done by the CHM: >> >> http://www.ieee.org/portal/cms_docs_iportals/iportals/aboutus/history_center/oral_history/pdfs/Shima197.pdf >> >> > > Having read more, Shima did the logic design on the 4004, 8080 and z80, > and did the layout on the 8080. I've also heard he led the layout for > the z8000. crap -- ... he also did the layout on the 8080 and z80, and led the layout for the z8000. From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sat Jan 3 11:01:05 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 15:01:05 -0200 Subject: Video pinouts for Sony SMC-70G References: <200901031550.n03FoFSW008568@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <116b01c96dc5$056cefa0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> >> Interesting machine...looks like a MSX compatible! What sound/video >> processor it uses? > It isn't, I'm pretty sure. I don't know a great deal about it, but I saw > one at VCF East and the exhibitor made pains to point out it is NOT one of > the Sony HitBit-type machines (which are their nominal MSX compatiboxen). Yep...just found its specs here. A completely different video processor (and lower resolution), and only 1 noise (you call that sound?!) channel. But a nice machine indeed :) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Jan 3 11:28:06 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2009 10:28:06 -0700 Subject: Z80 instruction fetch mechanism In-Reply-To: <495F7A4F.5010901@gifford.co.uk> References: <495E7961.7030005@gmail.com> <495EE500.4030201@pacbell.net> <495EEA34.4030606@pacbell.net> <495F7A4F.5010901@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: <495FA026.1040203@jetnet.ab.ca> John Honniball wrote: > Yes, that is correct. I have both versions! The original was called > "Programming the Z80" and was sold by Sybex along with "Programming > the 6502" and "Programming the 6809". And programming the Z8000 ... From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 3 12:29:10 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2009 10:29:10 -0800 Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: <200901020828.DAA23487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <200812312127.mBVLR8PQ014734@floodgap.com>, <495D5CAE.4185.2061A3B4@cclist.sydex.com>, <200901020828.DAA23487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <495F3DF6.4198.58260B3@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Jan 2009 at 3:25, der Mouse wrote: > Nothing says that the hardware's stack has to be the same as the C > local-variable stack, and indeed on an architecture like that it might > be smarter to use the hardware's stack - the thing SP points to - only > for return addresses, with local variables and arguments kept on a > separate stack, maintained by the function call/return boilerplate. > > Of course, that means you have to keep the data stack pointer > somewhere, since you can't keep it in SP for free.... I did say "C can probably be implemented on any binary CPU, given enough memory and ugliness". Probably even an 8x300. I work with both PICs and AVRs (my current project uses an ATMega128), but both instruction sets seem to me to be more than a bit contrived. The AVR less so than the PIC, but still on the "odd" side of the ledger. Why, for instance, on the AVR, am I restricted to 16-bit register pairs X, Y and Z? Why does LPM work only through Z? Why can't I use any register pair to address memory? To be fair, the TI MSP430 is a 16-bit chip, not an 8-bit one. Not that the TI chip doesn't have its drawbacks. It's available in 3.3v only and doesn't match the speed of higher-end PICs and AVRs (top clock speed for the 430 is, ISTR, 16MHz). The unified address space imposes limits on the size of RAM and program flash. But the instruction set's a marvel and the chip is extremely miserly with power. I'm not a 430 evangelist (and suspect that it will never enjoy the popularity of the PIC or AVR, which is a shame). I'll work with any instruction set, but I know what I'd prefer to use. It's curious that the MSP430's instruction set is close to the GI CP1600, where the PIC is descended from the very different 1650. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 3 13:58:24 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 19:58:24 +0000 (GMT) Subject: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: <495EE0AB.7060401@jbrain.com> from "Jim Brain" at Jan 2, 9 09:51:07 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > >> Tony Duell wrote: > >> > > If oyou use one switch to select between SS/80 and Amigo (protocol), that > > leaves 2 switches for drive type. Not really enough. And what are you > > going to do about sleecting the HPIB primary address (HP units normally > > had 3 switches for this, allowing addresses from 0 to 7 only). > > > Not sure. I do have the ability to add an entire latch of switches on > the IDE bus (like I am adding the IEEE-488 support.) On the current > unit, you send commands to the unit through the command channel to > change such things, so maybe that is another option (pick the command > set from the front, then issue a command to pick a device type and I think the HPIB address pretty much has to be set in hardware. I suppose other options could be set by sending commands to an otherwise unused secondary address, but it's a kludge, and I'd rather not have anything which doesn't _exactly_ follow the HP command set (for fear some program, somewhere, will use some undocumented HP command that happnes to clash with the configuration one). > > FWIW, I've had some early HP HPIB units on the bench recently, and HP > > used '38s as driers (open collector) and '14s as receivers (schmitt > > trigger inputs). Of course using thsoe put the package count up. > > > '38s are somewhat iffy, in my mind. MC3446 and the 75XXX line sink Quite so. I was just commenting on what HP used in their early devices. Later ones used 75160s and 75162s, 3448s, the HP custom buffer chip, and so on. I would be happy to look at any schematcs you come up with for HPIB and commetn on them (don't send them to me here, though!). -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jan 3 15:04:49 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 13:04:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: Video pinouts for Sony SMC-70G In-Reply-To: <200901031550.n03FoFSW008568@floodgap.com> References: <200901031550.n03FoFSW008568@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20090103130242.C43002@shell.lmi.net> > Interesting machine...looks like a MSX compatible! It isn't. The Sony SMC-70 came out WAY before MSX. There was CP/M, and a proprietary OS and word Processor. It LOOKS like they commissioned an Italian designer for the case. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From spc at conman.org Sat Jan 3 15:49:51 2009 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 16:49:51 -0500 Subject: What kind of IC is this In-Reply-To: <20090102204951.c3a2aaf5.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <20081230193428.69f05be5.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <495A8EFD.7060208@philpem.me.uk> <20081230223036.d5a23737.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <495AAB50.6080507@philpem.me.uk> <2C535D4C-0F9D-4FDC-BEAB-283BE688F3D7@neurotica.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20081231115327.074af3a0@mail.threedee.com> <20090102204951.c3a2aaf5.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <20090103214951.GA28316@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Jochen Kunz once stated: > On Wed, 31 Dec 2008 11:54:53 -0600 > John Foust wrote: > > > He would bring this bad > > part -- a capacitor, a pot, a transistor, an IC, or whatever -- over > > to the vise and lay it on the anvil part. Then he would calmly, > > methodically beat it with a hammer until the smallest remaining part > > was indistinguishable from the dust on the floor. > This shows how to fix a unfixable camera lens that way: > http://www.hermes.net.au/bayling/repair.html I did something similar to a call phone that didn't quite survive a 3' fall. [1] -spc (Finally have a cell phone that's nothing more than a call phone) [1] http://boston.conman.org/2006/05/11.4 From keithvz at verizon.net Sat Jan 3 21:21:18 2009 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith) Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2009 22:21:18 -0500 Subject: I scanned some stuff In-Reply-To: <51ea77730901021650x58c2e983je1c6b66fffb46cbd@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730901021650x58c2e983je1c6b66fffb46cbd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49602B2E.4090902@verizon.net> Jason T wrote: > I'm trying to make sure I don't waste time by scanning stuff that's > already out there. Stuff that is already out there might be of much lower quality. If you shoot for high quality on all your scans, even your duplication probably isn't really duplication. IMHO, storage and transfer speeds are only going up and up --- I'd rather have a file take up a little more space and take a little longer to download, and have a better end result. > Consequently, I'm probably also scanning things no > one will ever want. While I have done a relatively small amount of scan-archiving (or whatever the heck its called), even if one person found it useful five years from now I would have considered it time well invested. I've been working on a retro-computing project for a couple years, and old-school original documentation is extremely valuable, and I'm always excited to find a new scan of some documentation that I can't find or didn't know existed. The power of the Internet with practically free duplication and instant delivery is nothing short of amazing wrt this type of work. > Enjoy, and more to come! Fantastic. Thanks for your hard work. There will be people thanking you in the future. > > -j > Keith From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Sat Jan 3 21:49:08 2009 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2009 19:49:08 -0800 Subject: Little Man Computer ( LMC ) simulator ? References: <0KCS00A8P2TXXQH7@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <000601c96e1f$65e35a90$0201a8c0@hal9000> Anybody in the group familiar with / have code / or seen a simulator for the Little Man Computer ( LMC ) ? It is a simplified theoretical computer architecture out of MIT from 1965 ( I believe ), not a computer for people with short stature. Best regards, Steven From jgessling at yahoo.com Sat Jan 3 23:17:49 2009 From: jgessling at yahoo.com (James Gessling) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 21:17:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: In the Christmas spirit Message-ID: <280168.40036.qm@web31907.mail.mud.yahoo.com> What IC is this, who, that I see On bench's top, is resting? Whom old timers greet with joy, while others are sleeping? This, this is the 4004 Whom collectors guard, make dealers sing: Haste, haste to bring it laud, The chip, the son of Intel! etc... From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Jan 3 23:47:32 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Sat, 03 Jan 2009 22:47:32 -0700 Subject: In the Christmas spirit In-Reply-To: <280168.40036.qm@web31907.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <280168.40036.qm@web31907.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49604D74.1050100@jetnet.ab.ca> James Gessling wrote: > What IC is this, who, that I see > On bench's top, is resting? > Whom old timers greet with joy, > while others are sleeping? > This, this is the 4004 > Whom collectors guard, make dealers sing: > Haste, haste to bring it laud, > The chip, the son of Intel! > > etc... > oh mighty 4004 is now... Never-more From rborsuk at colourfull.com Sun Jan 4 00:07:38 2009 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 01:07:38 -0500 Subject: Anyone know what these boards are? Message-ID: Anyone know about these boards? ebay # 170291194981 Rob Rob Borsuk email: rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations Web: http://www.colourfull.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Jan 3 12:29:44 2009 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2009 10:29:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: Video pinouts for Sony SMC-70G Message-ID: <583353.56171.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> it don't got MSX roms, no. --- On Sat, 1/3/09, Cameron Kaiser wrote: From: Cameron Kaiser Subject: Re: Video pinouts for Sony SMC-70G To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Date: Saturday, January 3, 2009, 10:50 AM > > Just acquired one of these bad boys and I've found very little info on > > it -- it appears to have two video out connectors -- a 25-pin D-sub > > labeled "RGB Multi Out" and an 8-pin DIN labeled "B/W Multi Out." > > Anyone know the pinouts of these?? Any ideas what kind of monitor I can > > expect to use with this machine? > >? ???Interesting machine...looks like a MSX compatible! What sound/video > processor it uses? It isn't, I'm pretty sure. I don't know a great deal about it, but I saw one at VCF East and the exhibitor made pains to point out it is NOT one of the Sony HitBit-type machines (which are their nominal MSX compatiboxen). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- ? Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If you want divine justice, die. -- Nick Seldon ---------------------------- From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Jan 4 11:32:12 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 11:32:12 -0600 Subject: Z80 instruction fetch mechanism In-Reply-To: <495EEA34.4030606@pacbell.net> References: <495E7961.7030005@gmail.com> <495EE500.4030201@pacbell.net> <495EEA34.4030606@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <4960F29C.1030102@gmail.com> Jim Battle wrote: > This shows the use of two hidden registers, W and Z -- they are > analogous to another 16b BC pair. These hold the immediate 16b address > fetch, since the CPU needs to hold a 16b value for the duration of that > instruction that isn't retained afterward. Yes, I think I've seen somewhere that W and Z were used to assemble a temporary 16b address - however, that's a different kettle of fish; this chap was wondering how multi-byte instructions (i.e. where the opcode itself is longer than a single byte) get decoded. It does seem logical (to both of us, anyway) that it's just a set of flip-flops set by the prefix bytes to indicate different states - but so far it seems that this isn't actually documented anywhere (presumably because it doesn't *need* to be as far as anyone using the CPU is concerned) I have the Zaks 'fat book' (and the Zilog A4-sized reference publication) but unfortunately they're stuck in storage :-( cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 4 12:33:42 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 10:33:42 -0800 Subject: Z80 instruction fetch mechanism In-Reply-To: <4960F29C.1030102@gmail.com> References: <495E7961.7030005@gmail.com>, <495EEA34.4030606@pacbell.net>, <4960F29C.1030102@gmail.com> Message-ID: <49609086.18865.AACE5B4@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Jan 2009 at 11:32, Jules Richardson wrote: > It does seem logical (to both of us, anyway) that it's just a set of > flip-flops set by the prefix bytes to indicate different states - but so far > it seems that this isn't actually documented anywhere (presumably because it > doesn't *need* to be as far as anyone using the CPU is concerned) >From an operational standpoint concerning DD and FD, it makes sense. All of those "undocumented" instructions involving half of IX or IY are just normal DE and HL-involved instructions with a prefix byte. But the CB and ED opcodes are radically different from their single- byte cousins and I suspect that a different mechanism is at play here. Perhaps they switch to a different section of the decoding PLA. Cheers, Chuck From shoppa at trailing-edge.com Sun Jan 4 12:40:02 2009 From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 13:40:02 -0500 Subject: Orthogonality and contrivedness In-Reply-To: <200901041801.n04I0jhb082980@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901041801.n04I0jhb082980@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20090104184002.48F99C401A6@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Chuck writes: > I work with both PICs and AVRs (my current project uses an > ATMega128), but both instruction sets seem to me to be more than a > bit contrived. The AVR less so than the PIC, but still on the "odd" > side of the ledger. Try programming an 1802 for a while. You'll know you're really into it when it seems "contrived" that all those other processors can only use a single of their registers as a program counter :-). Twisting my mind to switch to 1802 mode and back is a interesting experience. The smaller PIC's make perfect sense once you realize they're Harvard architecture. Bigger PIC's, I never really grokked. > I'm not a 430 evangelist (and suspect that it will never enjoy the > popularity of the PIC or AVR, which is a shame). I'll work with any > instruction set, but I know what I'd prefer to use. > > It's curious that the MSP430's instruction set is close to the GI > CP1600, where the PIC is descended from the very different 1650. To me it's perfectly obvious that the MSP430 is PDP-11 like, and in some ways even more orthogonal than the -11. The CP1600 was substantially less orthogonal, more Nova-like with some of the registers obviously intended for index use. Tim. From steve at radiorobots.com Sun Jan 4 12:59:19 2009 From: steve at radiorobots.com (steve stutman) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 13:59:19 -0500 Subject: Orthogonality and contrivedness In-Reply-To: <20090104184002.48F99C401A6@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <200901041801.n04I0jhb082980@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20090104184002.48F99C401A6@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <49610707.3000709@radiorobots.com> One must have affection for any proc with instruction "GHI". An 1802 prob also still somewhat in control of the Earthmade-machine most distant from Earth. Steve Tim Shoppa wrote: > Chuck writes: > >> I work with both PICs and AVRs (my current project uses an >> ATMega128), but both instruction sets seem to me to be more than a >> bit contrived. The AVR less so than the PIC, but still on the "odd" >> side of the ledger. >> > > Try programming an 1802 for a while. You'll know you're really into > it when it seems "contrived" that all those other processors can > only use a single of their registers as a program counter :-). > Twisting my mind to switch to 1802 mode and back is a interesting > experience. > > The smaller PIC's make perfect sense once you realize they're > Harvard architecture. Bigger PIC's, I never really grokked. > > >> I'm not a 430 evangelist (and suspect that it will never enjoy the >> popularity of the PIC or AVR, which is a shame). I'll work with any >> instruction set, but I know what I'd prefer to use. >> >> It's curious that the MSP430's instruction set is close to the GI >> CP1600, where the PIC is descended from the very different 1650. >> > > To me it's perfectly obvious that the MSP430 is PDP-11 like, and > in some ways even more orthogonal than the -11. The CP1600 was > substantially less orthogonal, more Nova-like with some > of the registers obviously intended for index use. > > Tim. > From pcw at mesanet.com Sun Jan 4 12:53:35 2009 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 10:53:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: Orthogonality and contrivedness In-Reply-To: <20090104184002.48F99C401A6@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <200901041801.n04I0jhb082980@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20090104184002.48F99C401A6@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: SNIP_________________________ > To me it's perfectly obvious that the MSP430 is PDP-11 like, and > in some ways even more orthogonal than the -11. The CP1600 was > substantially less orthogonal, more Nova-like with some > of the registers obviously intended for index use. Actually its much more TMS9900 like than PDP11 like (addressing modes, machine code layout, number of registers) not surprisingly since its from TI > > Tim. > Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics (\__/) (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Jan 4 13:08:26 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 13:08:26 -0600 Subject: ACS Altos 3068 In-Reply-To: <495ED2CE.4010201@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <495ED2CE.4010201@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <4961092A.4060905@gmail.com> Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > Hi there, > > Am I the only person on the planet that still has one of these machines > ? Possibly :-) The name sounds familiar, but I'm not sure why - possibly the museum was offered one (but likely turned it down as there sadly isn't infinite space for every UNIX system ever made) > The perticular example I have has 4M of ram and a 70M disk, and is > running SysV unix. Acording to the documentation and the back of the > machine, it has a SCSI-1 interface however I have never been able to get > this working. It's definitely single-ended SCSI and not differential? My NCR had an external SCSI interface, but it was differential (even though the internal disks were single-ended on a separate portion of the controller). > I think I heard somewhere that the SCSI required a later version of the > OS What devices were you trying to use? e.g. I wonder if they added OS support for SCSI streaming tape but not disk, or something like that... cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 4 13:19:38 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 11:19:38 -0800 Subject: Orthogonality and contrivedness In-Reply-To: References: <200901041801.n04I0jhb082980@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <20090104184002.48F99C401A6@mini-me.trailing-edge.com>, Message-ID: <49609B4A.11470.AD6E673@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Jan 2009 at 10:53, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > Actually its much more TMS9900 like than PDP11 like (addressing modes, > machine code layout, number of registers) > not surprisingly since its from TI You know, you're right-- what the MPS430 lacks is a workspace pointer. At least interrupts push the status register on the stack, unlike some other uCs. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 4 13:57:30 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 11:57:30 -0800 Subject: Orthogonality and contrivedness In-Reply-To: <20090104184002.48F99C401A6@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <200901041801.n04I0jhb082980@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <20090104184002.48F99C401A6@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <4960A42A.23974.AF9AEFD@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Jan 2009 at 13:40, Tim Shoppa wrote: Try programming an 1802 for a while. You'll know you're really into > it when it seems "contrived" that all those other processors can > only use a single of their registers as a program counter :-). > Twisting my mind to switch to 1802 mode and back is a interesting > experience. Well, at least the PC on the 430 is a regular register, operable by any applicable instruction of the set. Doing a decimal add to the PC must certainly yield interesting results! I'd always considered the 1802 to be in a unique position in the 70's, in that it was a (comparatively) low-power CMOS design. No doubt this was aided somewhat by its simple architecture. Was 1802 RCA's one and only veture in the microprocessor world? > The smaller PIC's make perfect sense once you realize they're > Harvard architecture. Bigger PIC's, I never really grokked. The Harvard architecture really falls down in uCs because of lack of space to store read-only constants. Small PICs have to resort to all sorts of oddball tricks to accommodate this for things such as lookup tables. (Use a "return from subroutine with immediate value" instruction). Upper PICs include instructions to access program memory and AFAIK, all AVRs have them. Which doesn't make them strictly Harvard architecture anymore. Had the ROM area included a space in data memory for constant storage, it might have done the trick. Yes, there's EEPROM, but it has a different purpose and is not easy to use. The 430 drops the charade and adopts a Von Neumann architecture, relying on the read-only nature of ROM to enforce the separation between code and data. > To me it's perfectly obvious that the MSP430 is PDP-11 like, and > in some ways even more orthogonal than the -11. The CP1600 was > substantially less orthogonal, more Nova-like with some > of the registers obviously intended for index use. How many Nova programmers would have killed for 16 registers? To me, what distinguishes the CP1600 was its inefficient use of instruction memory (Yes, I know about the 10-bit ROM, but still...) Cheers, Chuck From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sun Jan 4 14:33:26 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 12:33:26 -0800 Subject: Mac 400k floppy drive alignment? Message-ID: <49611D16.9040802@mail.msu.edu> Got myself an ancient external 400k mac floppy drive on the cheap that I'd like to use on my 128k mac -- after cleaning out the old dried lubricant and getting the drive mechanism running again, the drive works but will only read/write disks that it has formatted, which leads me to believe that the drive is out of alignment. How is alignment corrected on these drives? Thanks! Josh From rescue at hawkmountain.net Sun Jan 4 17:58:27 2009 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 18:58:27 -0500 Subject: chip identification Message-ID: <49614D23.2000800@hawkmountain.net> Trying to ID some chips I pulled from various pieces of equipment. I have a cpu? I pulled out of a modem ... Signetics SC80C31BCPN40. This would appear to be an Intel 8031 based cpu. But does it have an internal ROM/etc that would preclude its reuse ? I have 3 chips now in the trash pile... I believe they are OTP EPROMs (and since used, are no good). MX 27C1000PC-70, ATMEL AT27LV256A, and AtMel AT27C010-70JC. Lastly I have what I think is EEPROM. SST PH29EE010-150-4CF. I believe this to be a 1Mbit EEPROM. Searching google for chip part numbers is paramount to useless due to all the chip vendors advertising.... there has to be a better way.... So, beyond looking for better ways to search for chip data/datasheets, can anyone confirm the identification of the above chips ? Is an 8031 cpu 'fun' to play with ? :-) -- Curt From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 4 18:57:20 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 16:57:20 -0800 Subject: chip identification In-Reply-To: <49614D23.2000800@hawkmountain.net> References: <49614D23.2000800@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <4960EA70.4564.C0C3E87@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Jan 2009 at 18:58, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > I have a cpu? I pulled out of a modem ... Signetics > SC80C31BCPN40. This would appear to be an Intel 8031 based > cpu. But does it have an internal ROM/etc that would preclude > its reuse ? 8031/80C31 is the ROM-less version of the 8051. So you're in luck. > I have 3 chips now in the trash pile... I believe they are OTP EPROMs > (and since used, are no good). MX 27C1000PC-70, ATMEL > AT27LV256A, and AtMel AT27C010-70JC. I believe that you're right, if they have no windows on them. > Lastly I have what I think is EEPROM. SST PH29EE010-150-4CF. > I believe this to be a 1Mbit EEPROM. Yes, search for "29EE010" on DatasheetCatalog.com and you'll turn up the SST part. As far as excluding the chip-peddling sites, I spike my google search with terms such as -buy -RFQ -qty -quantity -stock... Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 4 20:49:05 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 18:49:05 -0800 Subject: Anyone know what these boards are? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <496104A1.2741.C728091@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Jan 2009 at 1:07, Robert Borsuk wrote: > Anyone know about these boards? > ebay # 170291194981 68K CPU perhaps? But 1/50th of an inch of gold? (20 thousandths?)... Cheers, Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jan 4 22:20:52 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2009 20:20:52 -0800 Subject: Mac 400k floppy drive alignment? In-Reply-To: <49611D16.9040802@mail.msu.edu> References: <49611D16.9040802@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: > From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu > > Got myself an ancient external 400k mac floppy drive on the cheap that > I'd like to use on my 128k mac -- after cleaning out the old dried > lubricant and getting the drive mechanism running again, the drive works > but will only read/write disks that it has formatted, which leads me to > believe that the drive is out of alignment. How is alignment corrected > on these drives? > > Thanks! > Josh Hi Like any other drive, you need an alignment disk for a 400k drive. That would be a tough one. You can always just experiment some. Before moving the stepper, make sure the track zero is in the right place. After a recal, measure the distance the head is from the spindle. It should be close to the same for both drives. If the track zero is right, try the stepper next. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ It?s the same Hotmail?. If by ?same? you mean up to 70% faster. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_broad1_122008 From w.f.j.mueller at gsi.de Sun Jan 4 11:49:02 2009 From: w.f.j.mueller at gsi.de (Walter F. Mueller) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 18:49:02 +0100 Subject: 2.11BSD Patch 446+447; fixes for ulrem,umount,tar,tcsh,ps,vmstat,apropos,pstat,rk Message-ID: <4960F68E.1010507@gsi.de> A note to all 2.11bsd users: Over the past 2 years several bug fixes for 2.11BSD accumulated, and over xmas break I finally found the time to communicate them to Steven Schultz. Steven was so kind to package them into two new patch files 446 issued December 27, 2008 447 issued December 31, 2008 Together, the patches address the following points - ulrem.s: the unsigned long modulo operator (%) was broken in libkern - umount: returned inverted exit codes (1 for success, 0 for failure) - tar: core dumped when a whole /usr tree was archived - tcsh: the time buildin function printed some erroneous or zero statistics - ps: core dumped when '-t' option was used with no further argument - apropos: core dumped when 2 or more arguments were given - vmstat: wrong normalization for some fields - several issues around the rk disk driver - no rk root attach function - no rk BOOTDEV support - incorrect UCB_METER code (vmstat/iostat never showed any rk activity) - autoconfig left the RK11 controller in an error state - pstat: added additional options to access more kernel data structures - new -c option, dumping the coremap - new -m option, dumping the ub_map (UNIBUS map) - new -b option, dumping the buffer pool table - change -s output, gives now full table dump - adapt the info's displayed by -T - some documentation corrections (vmstat, pstat, tcsh) Note: In case you wonder, as I did, why 211BSD survived 20 years with a broken unsigned long % operator: - only the non-FPP libkern implementation was affected - the kernel simply doesn't have any unsigned long modulo's :) - apparently only standalone mkfs after patch 434 was compromised For the full story of all the above consult the header of the patch files. The patch files are available from moe.2bsd.com and ftp.wx.gd-ais.com. Note, that Steven changed the packaging some time ago, the patches are now packed in bzip'ed tarballs in groups of ten patches. So you'll have to look into ftp://moe.2bsd.com/pub/2.11BSD/440-447.tar.bz2 ftp://ftp.wx.gd-ais.com/pub/2.11BSD/440-447.tar.bz2 With best regards, Walter Mueller From w.f.j.mueller at gsi.de Sun Jan 4 14:06:28 2009 From: w.f.j.mueller at gsi.de (Walter F. Mueller) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 21:06:28 +0100 Subject: jove editor under 2.11BSD and cursor keys In-Reply-To: <4960F68E.1010507@gsi.de> References: <4960F68E.1010507@gsi.de> Message-ID: <496116C4.8050101@gsi.de> Hello, I'm using the jove editor under 2.11BSD, the jove release is from 1988. It works just fine, except for the cursor keys. Even though the ansi-codes function is properly bound, 'ESC x describe-bindings' shows: ESC [ ansi-codes I get whenever I hit one of the cursor keys the message [ESC O unbound] TERM is set to vt100, termcap is ok, and the xterm used is started with -ti vt100. vi for example works and accepts the cursor keys, a dump of the chars emitted by xterm show that the proper \[[A ect sequence indeed arrives. Any help or hint on how to get this to work is very much appreciated. With best regards, Walter Mueller From bqt at softjar.se Sun Jan 4 17:59:42 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 00:59:42 +0100 Subject: [pups] jove editor under 2.11BSD and cursor keys In-Reply-To: <496116C4.8050101@gsi.de> References: <4960F68E.1010507@gsi.de> <496116C4.8050101@gsi.de> Message-ID: <49614D6E.2090408@softjar.se> Walter F. Mueller wrote: > Hello, > > I'm using the jove editor under 2.11BSD, the jove release is > from 1988. It works just fine, except for the cursor keys. > Even though the ansi-codes function is properly bound, > 'ESC x describe-bindings' shows: > > ESC [ ansi-codes > > I get whenever I hit one of the cursor keys the message > > [ESC O unbound] > > TERM is set to vt100, termcap is ok, and the xterm used is > started with -ti vt100. vi for example works and accepts the > cursor keys, a dump of the chars emitted by xterm show that > the proper \[[A ect sequence indeed arrives. > > Any help or hint on how to get this to work is very much > appreciated. Please note the difference between "[" and "O"... :-) To give you a little more help: someone or something is changing your terminal to have application cursor keys. (And to point out what should be obvious now: your cursor keys can actually send two different kind of codes, depending on a setup parameter.) Johnny From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Jan 4 18:34:02 2009 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 19:34:02 -0500 Subject: Orthogonality and contrivedness Message-ID: <0KCZ001TD2WONTA1@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Orthogonality and contrivedness > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Sun, 04 Jan 2009 11:57:30 -0800 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 4 Jan 2009 at 13:40, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > Try programming an 1802 for a while. You'll know you're really into >> it when it seems "contrived" that all those other processors can >> only use a single of their registers as a program counter :-). >> Twisting my mind to switch to 1802 mode and back is a interesting >> experience. > >Well, at least the PC on the 430 is a regular register, operable by >any applicable instruction of the set. Doing a decimal add to the PC >must certainly yield interesting results! > >I'd always considered the 1802 to be in a unique position in the >70's, in that it was a (comparatively) low-power CMOS design. No >doubt this was aided somewhat by its simple architecture. Was 1802 >RCA's one and only veture in the microprocessor world? In the 70s CMOS was mostly RCAs game and calling card. They never got the density very high till mid 70s. There was 6100 (aka PDP-8 in cmos) and the 1800/1801 then the 1802 and 1804 and 1805 The 1800/01 was the base of the family and took two chips to complee the processor. The 1802 was the first CPU from RCA that took only one chip and the 04/05 added minor improvements and brought rom on the chip. If memeory serves RCA also had a mini that has a similar archetecture. The odditiy of the cosmac is once you program with it enough it's PHI SEX and GLO. Seriously it's fairly efficient once you get used to it. If it were made with current processes, the number of clocks per cycle dropped it would likely still have staying power. >> The smaller PIC's make perfect sense once you realize they're >> Harvard architecture. Bigger PIC's, I never really grokked. > >The Harvard architecture really falls down in uCs because of lack of >space to store read-only constants. Small PICs have to resort to all >sorts of oddball tricks to accommodate this for things such as lookup >tables. (Use a "return from subroutine with immediate value" >instruction). Upper PICs include instructions to access program >memory and AFAIK, all AVRs have them. Which doesn't make them >strictly Harvard architecture anymore. Had the ROM area included a >space in data memory for constant storage, it might have done the >trick. Yes, there's EEPROM, but it has a different purpose and is >not easy to use. Most all of the Harvard machines have a way to load a constant or acccess a table in rom. Started with the TMS1000. >The 430 drops the charade and adopts a Von Neumann architecture, >relying on the read-only nature of ROM to enforce the separation >between code and data. > >> To me it's perfectly obvious that the MSP430 is PDP-11 like, and >> in some ways even more orthogonal than the -11. The CP1600 was >> substantially less orthogonal, more Nova-like with some >> of the registers obviously intended for index use. Never tried that one. > >How many Nova programmers would have killed for 16 registers? To me, >what distinguishes the CP1600 was its inefficient use of instruction >memory (Yes, I know about the 10-bit ROM, but still...) > It was aimed at a rom based systems and back then rom was A)bulky, B)expensive silicon. ALlison >Cheers, >Chuck From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Jan 4 18:35:58 2009 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 00:35:58 +0000 Subject: chip identification In-Reply-To: <49614D23.2000800@hawkmountain.net> References: <49614D23.2000800@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <1231115758.6251.14.camel@elric> On Sun, 2009-01-04 at 18:58 -0500, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > Trying to ID some chips I pulled from various pieces of equipment. > > I have a cpu? I pulled out of a modem ... Signetics > SC80C31BCPN40. This would appear to be an Intel 8031 based > cpu. But does it have an internal ROM/etc that would preclude > its reuse ? I'm pretty sure the 80C31 is ROMless. Was there a ROM on the board too? > I have 3 chips now in the trash pile... I believe they are OTP EPROMs > (and since used, are no good). MX 27C1000PC-70, ATMEL > AT27LV256A, and AtMel AT27C010-70JC. They are AFAIK OTP parts, yes. > Lastly I have what I think is EEPROM. SST PH29EE010-150-4CF. > I believe this to be a 1Mbit EEPROM. Sounds about right > Searching google for chip part numbers is paramount to useless > due to all the chip vendors advertising.... there has to be a better > way.... Awful, isn't it? > So, beyond looking for better ways to search for chip data/datasheets, > can anyone confirm the identification of the above chips ? > > Is an 8031 cpu 'fun' to play with ? :-) Alesis certainly seemed to think so. Gordon From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jan 5 02:02:47 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 03:02:47 -0500 Subject: chip identification In-Reply-To: <49614D23.2000800@hawkmountain.net> References: <49614D23.2000800@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <1D3925C3-DD2D-421A-B72E-125F025E757F@neurotica.com> On Jan 4, 2009, at 6:58 PM, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > Trying to ID some chips I pulled from various pieces of equipment. > > I have a cpu? I pulled out of a modem ... Signetics > SC80C31BCPN40. This would appear to be an Intel 8031 based > cpu. But does it have an internal ROM/etc that would preclude > its reuse ? Nope...the 8031 is the ROM-less version of the 8051. > I have 3 chips now in the trash pile... I believe they are OTP EPROMs > (and since used, are no good). MX 27C1000PC-70, ATMEL > AT27LV256A, and AtMel AT27C010-70JC. They're definitely EPROMs, and they're OTP unless they have a window. > Lastly I have what I think is EEPROM. SST PH29EE010-150-4CF. > I believe this to be a 1Mbit EEPROM. > Searching google for chip part numbers is paramount to useless > due to all the chip vendors advertising.... there has to be a better > way.... Nope, there's no better way...it's just tedious and time- consuming. The 29EE010 is indeed a 1Mb EEPROM. I have the datasheet here: http://www.neurotica.com/misc/SST29EE010.pdf > Is an 8031 cpu 'fun' to play with ? :-) Some people say no, some people say yes. Personally I love the 8051 architecture. I've done tons of stuff with 8051 implementations, both at home and at work...been working with them for close to twenty years now. It's one of the best-supported microcontroller architectures out there. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wpileggi at juno.com Mon Jan 5 02:31:29 2009 From: wpileggi at juno.com (Bill Pileggi) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 08:31:29 GMT Subject: Offer- VGA and SoundBlaster Card collections/last chance Message-ID: <20090105.033129.25302.0@webmail24.vgs.untd.com> Couple of months ago, I offered up my classic VGA (ISA, PCI, AGP) card collection and Soundblaster (ISA, PCI) card collection(s). I had several take me up on my offer. I still have a lot left, if you have any interest, please email. Most went for shipping costs + small fee. Thanks. Bill KA3AIS ____________________________________________________________ Save $15 on Flowers and Gifts from FTD! Shop now at http://offers.juno.com/TGL1131/?u=http://www.ftd.com/17007 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Jan 5 08:52:44 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 06:52:44 -0800 Subject: chip identification In-Reply-To: <1231115758.6251.14.camel@elric> References: <49614D23.2000800@hawkmountain.net> <1231115758.6251.14.camel@elric> Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > From: gordon at gjcp.net > > On Sun, 2009-01-04 at 18:58 -0500, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: >> Trying to ID some chips I pulled from various pieces of equipment. >> >> I have a cpu? I pulled out of a modem ... Signetics >> SC80C31BCPN40. This would appear to be an Intel 8031 based >> cpu. But does it have an internal ROM/etc that would preclude >> its reuse ? > > I'm pretty sure the 80C31 is ROMless. Was there a ROM on the board too? > ---snip--- Hi The 8031 was the ROM-less version. I always suspected that these were actually 8051s with defective ROMs. One can use a 8051 in a 8031 socket. It just ignores the ROM in the 8051. So, both can be used with an external ROM as though it were a 8031. It is just one of the pins is tied high or low. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ It?s the same Hotmail?. If by ?same? you mean up to 70% faster. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_broad1_122008 From srp at saslab.net Mon Jan 5 08:31:23 2009 From: srp at saslab.net (SAS Ltd) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 14:31:23 -0000 Subject: PDP8 spares required Message-ID: <005b01c96f42$4c5519a0$e4ff4ce0$@net> I am trying to keep a PDP8 computer alive which controls a measurement system. I have a need for spares for this computer, in particular 16k memory boards and all other boards. In fact the only parts I am now sure about are the power supply and backplane. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Marek Pawlik From srp at saslab.net Mon Jan 5 08:31:23 2009 From: srp at saslab.net (SAS Ltd) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 14:31:23 -0000 Subject: HP9836 hardware. software and manuals availability Message-ID: <005a01c96f42$4a65a5b0$df30f110$@net> I have a large collection of hardware, software and manuals relating to the HP9836 computer. The following items are available to anyone who would like them and who could collect them from Buckinghamshire. I will only give an outline of the items available although \I can provide more detailed listings on request: 1. 5 Hp9836 computers of which 2 are fully functioning. The other 3 have various failed subsystems but they could easily be cannibalised into 2 working systems. 2. Approximately 8 5.25 disk drives, all failed and in need of repair. 3. Full manual sets for Basic and Pascal in t 2 versions of each. 4. A collection of memory cards and math coprocessor cards. 5. Both 3.5 and 5.25 original operating system disks. 6. A collection of 7470 and 7475 plotters most of which are working. 7. A collection of various Thinkjet printers and other HP printers, 8. Various HPIB cables 9. IEM Fortran77 compiler and manuals. Several 9122 3.25 disk drives I have been using these machines for 25 years and have recently changed to Windows based systems. I do not have the heart just to throw these items away so please let me know if you need further details or have any interest in these items. Marek Pawlik From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jan 5 09:45:26 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 07:45:26 -0800 Subject: PDP8 spares required In-Reply-To: <005b01c96f42$4c5519a0$e4ff4ce0$@net> References: <005b01c96f42$4c5519a0$e4ff4ce0$@net> Message-ID: At 2:31 PM +0000 1/5/09, SAS Ltd wrote: >I am trying to keep a PDP8 computer alive which controls a measurement >system. I have a need for spares for this computer, in particular 16k memory >boards and all other boards. In fact the only parts I am now sure about are >the power supply and backplane. It would be necessary to know *which* model of PDP-8 you're talking about. It should be fairly "easy" to find spares for a PDP-8/e/f/m or a PDP-8a, but for the other models it will be tricky. One worthwhile option is to look into someone repairing any bad boards you might have. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Jan 5 09:49:57 2009 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 16:49:57 +0100 Subject: PDP8 spares required In-Reply-To: <005b01c96f42$4c5519a0$e4ff4ce0$@net> References: <005b01c96f42$4c5519a0$e4ff4ce0$@net> Message-ID: <20090105154957.GA29914@Update.UU.SE> On Mon, Jan 05, 2009 at 02:31:23PM -0000, SAS Ltd wrote: > I am trying to keep a PDP8 computer alive which controls a measurement > system. I have a need for spares for this computer, in particular 16k memory > boards and all other boards. In fact the only parts I am now sure about are > the power supply and backplane. I'm afraid I wont be of much help, I'm just curious. Are you still running a PDP-8 in a real world application? That must be one of last ones out there. And if so, what prevents you from using an emulator? custom hardware? Also, what model PDP-8 is it? Kind Regards, Pontus. From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Jan 5 10:22:02 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 11:22:02 -0500 Subject: PDP8 spares required In-Reply-To: <20090105154957.GA29914@Update.UU.SE> References: <005b01c96f42$4c5519a0$e4ff4ce0$@net> <20090105154957.GA29914@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <200901051122.02131.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 05 January 2009, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > I'm afraid I wont be of much help, I'm just curious. Are you still > running a PDP-8 in a real world application? That must be one of last > ones out there. And if so, what prevents you from using an emulator? > custom hardware? > > Also, what model PDP-8 is it? Based on how the message reads (and the fact that it's out-of-order timewise compared to other messages on the list), I really doubt the person that posted this is a subscriber of this list.. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Mon Jan 5 10:22:45 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 11:22:45 -0500 Subject: RSTS/E question and media References: <20090101000526.2B0333800072F@portal.seefried.com> Message-ID: <18786.13269.718525.310017@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> >>>>> "Ken" == Ken Seefried writes: Ken> From: Andrew Back >> Right, so I'd need to plumb the 11/53 into say an Alpha via a >> serial connection. Sync... so I'd need to get a PCI sync card too, >> for the latter. Ugh. Ken> Is this something you could do with a low end Cisco (2500 class) Ken> and the apropos IOS image (Enterprise, with support for DECNet)? Ken> Sync serial is built in. Sync DECnet on that serial line? That would be an interesting approach. It sounds like it should work. It also would require the Cisco box to be able to talk to DECnet Phase III, unless the RSTS system is running 9.3 or later. If they implemented DECnet Phase IV correctly that should work. paul From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Mon Jan 5 10:26:38 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 11:26:38 -0500 Subject: RSTS/E question and media. References: <0KCR00LBCJ89Q9T6@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <18786.13502.599261.295003@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> >>>>> "Allison" == Allison writes: Allison> DDCMP can run over sync or async lines it was commonly done Allison> async for slow lines and sync for fast lines the division Allison> was around 19.2kbaud with the sync cards favoring the faster Allison> than that rates. True, but async DDCMP wasn't as widely supported. In particular, until around V10.0, RSTS/E only supported the sync DDCMP cards where the protocol was implemented on the card -- DMC11 and its successors. Very late in the history of RSTS I wrote an async DDCMP driver for it, mainly because that was the only way to get DDCMP on a Pro... paul From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Mon Jan 5 10:34:46 2009 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 16:34:46 +0000 Subject: PDP8 spares required In-Reply-To: <005b01c96f42$4c5519a0$e4ff4ce0$@net> References: <005b01c96f42$4c5519a0$e4ff4ce0$@net> Message-ID: do you have the tools to do component level repairs manuals and tests here http://www.pdp8online.com/query_docs/query_all.html eg Logic analyser etc that HP looks tempting Dave Caroline From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Mon Jan 5 10:37:50 2009 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 16:37:50 +0000 Subject: PDP8 spares required In-Reply-To: <005b01c96f42$4c5519a0$e4ff4ce0$@net> References: <005b01c96f42$4c5519a0$e4ff4ce0$@net> Message-ID: forgot to mention Im east midlands and have a Logic analyser available Dave Caroline From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Mon Jan 5 10:40:10 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 11:40:10 -0500 Subject: Language-specific CPUs was Re: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! References: <200812312127.mBVLR8PQ014734@floodgap.com> <495D5CAE.4185.2061A3B4@cclist.sydex.com> <200901020828.DAA23487@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <495F3DF6.4198.58260B3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <18786.14314.25428.45529@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> >>>>> "Chuck" == Chuck Guzis writes: Chuck> I did say "C can probably be implemented on any binary CPU, Chuck> given enough memory and ugliness". Probably even an 8x300. Chuck> I work with both PICs and AVRs (my current project uses an Chuck> ATMega128), ... Just in case you (or others) weren't aware of it... GCC supports the AVR, as of a few years ago. Surprising but neat. paul From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Jan 5 10:43:45 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 17:43:45 +0100 Subject: HP9836 hardware. software and manuals availability In-Reply-To: <005a01c96f42$4a65a5b0$df30f110$@net> References: <005a01c96f42$4a65a5b0$df30f110$@net> Message-ID: Hi, I'm very interested, but I'm living in the netherlands. I do collect HP and have 1 9836 until now and I'm searching for software and parts. Can you tell me were you are located, so I can see if I can arrange something about collecting some of your items. Best regards, Rik Bos The Netherlands. > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens SAS Ltd > Verzonden: maandag 5 januari 2009 15:31 > Aan: cctech at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: HP9836 hardware. software and manuals availability > > I have a large collection of hardware, software and manuals > relating to the > HP9836 computer. > The following items are available to anyone who would like > them and who could collect them from Buckinghamshire. I will > only give an outline of the items available although \I can > provide more detailed listings on request: > 1. 5 Hp9836 computers of which 2 are fully functioning. The > other 3 have various failed subsystems but they could easily > be cannibalised into 2 working systems. > 2. Approximately 8 5.25 disk drives, all failed and in need of repair. > 3. Full manual sets for Basic and Pascal in t 2 versions of each. > 4. A collection of memory cards and math coprocessor cards. > 5. Both 3.5 and 5.25 original operating system disks. > 6. A collection of 7470 and 7475 plotters most of which are working. > 7. A collection of various Thinkjet printers and other HP > printers, 8. Various HPIB cables 9. IEM Fortran77 compiler > and manuals. > Several 9122 3.25 disk drives > > I have been using these machines for 25 years and have > recently changed to Windows based systems. I do not have the > heart just to throw these items away so please let me know if > you need further details or have any interest in these items. > > Marek Pawlik > > From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Jan 5 10:48:28 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 17:48:28 +0100 Subject: HP9836 hardware. software and manuals availability In-Reply-To: References: <005a01c96f42$4a65a5b0$df30f110$@net> Message-ID: <2AD0C8F0FEFD481DAC5DBC9E948A35DD@xp1800> Sorry this was ment to be off-list, mea culpa -Rik > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Rik Bos > Verzonden: maandag 5 januari 2009 17:44 > Aan: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Onderwerp: RE: HP9836 hardware. software and manuals availability > > Hi, > > I'm very interested, but I'm living in the netherlands. > I do collect HP and have 1 9836 until now and I'm searching > for software and parts. > Can you tell me were you are located, so I can see if I can > arrange something about collecting some of your items. > > Best regards, > > Rik Bos > The Netherlands. > > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens SAS Ltd > > Verzonden: maandag 5 januari 2009 15:31 > > Aan: cctech at classiccmp.org > > Onderwerp: HP9836 hardware. software and manuals availability > > > > I have a large collection of hardware, software and manuals > relating > > to the > > HP9836 computer. > > The following items are available to anyone who would like them and > > who could collect them from Buckinghamshire. I will only give an > > outline of the items available although \I can provide more > detailed > > listings on request: > > 1. 5 Hp9836 computers of which 2 are fully functioning. The other 3 > > have various failed subsystems but they could easily be > cannibalised > > into 2 working systems. > > 2. Approximately 8 5.25 disk drives, all failed and in need > of repair. > > 3. Full manual sets for Basic and Pascal in t 2 versions of each. > > 4. A collection of memory cards and math coprocessor cards. > > 5. Both 3.5 and 5.25 original operating system disks. > > 6. A collection of 7470 and 7475 plotters most of which are working. > > 7. A collection of various Thinkjet printers and other HP > printers, 8. > > Various HPIB cables 9. IEM Fortran77 compiler and manuals. > > Several 9122 3.25 disk drives > > > > I have been using these machines for 25 years and have recently > > changed to Windows based systems. I do not have the heart just to > > throw these items away so please let me know if you need further > > details or have any interest in these items. > > > > Marek Pawlik > > > > > From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Mon Jan 5 11:05:58 2009 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 18:05:58 +0100 Subject: for the true collector... Message-ID: <49623DF6.8040604@bluewin.ch> Posted on DAFC, but also of interest here : 7 track tapedrive with a scope for each track : http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360121005247 From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Mon Jan 5 11:10:14 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 15:10:14 -0200 Subject: chip identification References: <49614D23.2000800@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <05ba01c96f58$9b97ecc0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> > I have a cpu? I pulled out of a modem ... Signetics > SC80C31BCPN40. This would appear to be an Intel 8031 based > cpu. But does it have an internal ROM/etc that would preclude > its reuse ? Yep...but even 8051 (which has an internal ROM) can be used as a romless 8031. There is a pin of internal memory selection you have to tie down, pin 31 if I'm not mistaken. > Searching google for chip part numbers is paramount to useless > due to all the chip vendors advertising.... there has to be a better > way.... www.datasheetarchive.com > Is an 8031 cpu 'fun' to play with ? :-) Any cpu is :) But it depends on what you find to be "fun" :oD From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jan 5 11:30:00 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 12:30:00 -0500 Subject: chip identification In-Reply-To: <05ba01c96f58$9b97ecc0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> References: <49614D23.2000800@hawkmountain.net> <05ba01c96f58$9b97ecc0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> Message-ID: On Jan 5, 2009, at 12:10 PM, Alexandre Souza wrote: >> I have a cpu? I pulled out of a modem ... Signetics >> SC80C31BCPN40. This would appear to be an Intel 8031 based >> cpu. But does it have an internal ROM/etc that would preclude >> its reuse ? > > Yep...but even 8051 (which has an internal ROM) can be used as a > romless 8031. There is a pin of internal memory selection you have > to tie down, pin 31 if I'm not mistaken. Yup, pin 31. Tie it low to enable external program memory. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Mon Jan 5 11:42:30 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 12:42:30 -0500 Subject: for the true collector... References: <49623DF6.8040604@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <18786.18054.617027.825327@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> >>>>> "Jos" == Jos Dreesen > writes: Jos> Posted on DAFC, but also of interest here : 7 track tapedrive Jos> with a scope for each track : Jos> http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360121005247 Presumably an "instrumentation tape" rather than a digital data tape drive. Neat, though. I wonder if it could handle digital tape. The 1 inch feature is nice for people who have early CDC 6000 series one-inch 14 track tapes... (if there are any such people!) paul From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jan 5 11:55:35 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 12:55:35 -0500 Subject: PDP8 spares required In-Reply-To: <20090105154957.GA29914@Update.UU.SE> References: <005b01c96f42$4c5519a0$e4ff4ce0$@net> <20090105154957.GA29914@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <07E0D383-7AB0-40B4-B0E5-DFCF70F5DB2E@neurotica.com> On Jan 5, 2009, at 10:49 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> I am trying to keep a PDP8 computer alive which controls a >> measurement >> system. I have a need for spares for this computer, in particular >> 16k memory >> boards and all other boards. In fact the only parts I am now sure >> about are >> the power supply and backplane. > > I'm afraid I wont be of much help, I'm just curious. Are you still > running a PDP-8 in a real world application? That must be one of last > ones out there. And if so, what prevents you from using an emulator? > custom hardware? Just jumping in...There are actually quite a few of them still running in production. Apparently, many commercial (i.e., not retail) paint mixing and color matching systems use them, in particular. For the past few days, I've been in an ongoing conversation with a fellow who was my childhood PDP mentor 25 years ago; he runs a service bureau and is working on a very flaky PDP-8/a that runs some sort of manufacturing system. I was shocked to learn of just how many of these systems are still out there doing their jobs. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Jan 5 12:12:06 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 10:12:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP8 spares required In-Reply-To: <07E0D383-7AB0-40B4-B0E5-DFCF70F5DB2E@neurotica.com> References: <005b01c96f42$4c5519a0$e4ff4ce0$@net> <20090105154957.GA29914@Update.UU.SE> <07E0D383-7AB0-40B4-B0E5-DFCF70F5DB2E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Jan 2009, Dave McGuire wrote: > Just jumping in...There are actually quite a few of them still running in > production. Apparently, many commercial (i.e., not retail) paint mixing and > color matching systems use them, in particular. Mills also seem to be a big user of them, and foundries. > For the past few days, I've been in an ongoing conversation with a fellow > who was my childhood PDP mentor 25 years ago; he runs a service bureau and is > working on a very flaky PDP-8/a that runs some sort of manufacturing system. > > I was shocked to learn of just how many of these systems are still out there > doing their jobs. They work, and it always easy to replace them. I assume that some are in jobs like some of the PDP-11's out there, where it would cost serious $$$'s to replace any part of the system, as it would have to go through a very expensive qualification process. This is why there is still a commercial demand for things like RD53 hard drives. Zane From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 5 12:31:36 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 10:31:36 -0800 Subject: Orthogonality and contrivedness In-Reply-To: <0KCZ001TD2WONTA1@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0KCZ001TD2WONTA1@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <4961E188.15379.FD153CE@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Jan 2009 at 19:34, Allison wrote: > In the 70s CMOS was mostly RCAs game and calling card. They never > got the density very high till mid 70s. > > There was 6100 (aka PDP-8 in cmos) and the 1800/1801 then the 1802 > and 1804 and 1805 The 1800/01 was the base of the family and took > two chips to complee the processor. The 1802 was the first CPU from > RCA that took only one chip and the 04/05 added minor improvements and > brought rom on the chip. Wasn't the 6100 an Intersil-branded product? I recall an article where a CDP1802 was used in a battery-operated sea-bed telemetry application. The ability to take the clock to 0 MHz to save batteries was a big plus. The 6100 could also go to DC, but the 1802 had more on-chip RAM in form of 16 16-bit registers, so no external RAM was required--just the program ROM. > The odditiy of the cosmac is once you program with it enough it's > PHI SEX and GLO. Seriously it's fairly efficient once you get used > to it. If it were made with current processes, the number of clocks > per cycle dropped it would likely still have staying power. Obviously, a good macro assembler helps a lot... The CDP1806 (ROM+RAM+Timer version) was produced through the 1990's. > Most all of the Harvard machines have a way to load a constant or > acccess a table in rom. Started with the TMS1000. That's my point. Keeping data in program ROM and creating special instructions to access it does not constitute a strict Harvard architecture. Lower PICs probably qualify as Harvard. (on the CP1600) > It was aimed at a rom based systems and back then rom was A)bulky, > B)expensive silicon. It wasn't as if 10-bit-wide ROMs were commonplace, either. Regardless, there are a large number of 2 and 3 word instructions in the CP1600 instruction set that doubtless made for a big loss of performance and inefficient use of valuable memory. At the time I was evaluating one in the 70's, I wondered if using an (optional) double-byte fetch from 8-bit memory would have made for a signifcant loss in performance. Wasting 38 percent of your instruction word struck me as a bad idea. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 5 12:35:48 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 10:35:48 -0800 Subject: PDP8 spares required In-Reply-To: <07E0D383-7AB0-40B4-B0E5-DFCF70F5DB2E@neurotica.com> References: <005b01c96f42$4c5519a0$e4ff4ce0$@net>, <20090105154957.GA29914@Update.UU.SE>, <07E0D383-7AB0-40B4-B0E5-DFCF70F5DB2E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4961E284.8930.FD52C1F@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Jan 2009 at 12:55, Dave McGuire wrote: > For the past few days, I've been in an ongoing conversation with a > fellow who was my childhood PDP mentor 25 years ago; he runs a > service bureau and is working on a very flaky PDP-8/a that runs some > sort of manufacturing system. > > I was shocked to learn of just how many of these systems are still > out there doing their jobs. I suspect that the military also has a fair number of them. A couple of years ago, I duplicated some RX02 floppies that were used in a rig for maintaining C130 transports. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 5 13:04:14 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 19:04:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: chip identification In-Reply-To: <49614D23.2000800@hawkmountain.net> from "Curtis H. Wilbar Jr." at Jan 4, 9 06:58:27 pm Message-ID: > > > Trying to ID some chips I pulled from various pieces of equipment. > > I have a cpu? I pulled out of a modem ... Signetics > SC80C31BCPN40. This would appear to be an Intel 8031 based > cpu. But does it have an internal ROM/etc that would preclude > its reuse ? The 8031 is ROMless as far as I know. But traditional 8051s (40 pin DIL package of whatecer) can be used -- the internal ROM can be disabled by asserting EA (External address), in which case they behave like 8031s. I am told that some 8031/2s are actually 8051/2s that have been programmed for some application (in the case of the 8052, often tiny BASIC), and the ROM has failed the text. > Searching google for chip part numbers is paramount to useless > due to all the chip vendors advertising.... there has to be a better > way.... I have found digchip (http://www.digchip.com/) to be quite useful. You have to register, but I think it's free. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 5 13:29:39 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 19:29:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP9836 hardware. software and manuals availability In-Reply-To: <005a01c96f42$4a65a5b0$df30f110$@net> from "SAS Ltd" at Jan 5, 9 02:31:23 pm Message-ID: > > I have a large collection of hardware, software and manuals relating to the > HP9836 computer. For the uninitated on Classiccmp, this is a 68000-based computer (OK, there was a very late version with a 68010 in it...). It's a desktop machine with a built-in keyboard and 2 5.25" floppy drives. There are 8 'DIO' expansion slots, 4 of whcih can take boards with external connectors, the other 4 take boards without connectors, like memory, DMA controller, etc. There is a built-in HPIB interface, but nothing else (in particualr, there is not serial port). There are 2 main versions. The 9836A has a single-bit graphics board and a monochrome monitor. The 9836C has a 4 bit-per-pixel graphics oard, a colour lookup tale, adn a colour monitor. > The following items are available to anyone who would like them and who > could collect them from Buckinghamshire. I will only give an outline of the > items available although \I can provide more detailed listings on request: I would be interested in seeing said lists... Do you want one person to take the lot, or would you consider splitting it? > 1. 5 Hp9836 computers of which 2 are fully functioning. The other 3 have > various failed subsystems but they could easily be cannibalised into 2 > working systems. There is no way I can house any more of these machines, alas (darn it, I already have a 9836A and a 9836CU, along with a 9826 (similar machine but with one floppy drive and a small mono monitor buiit in where the second drive would be). However, I might be ale to help the new owner get all the machine going again. I've done considerale component-level repair on these machines, and I have a pile of 'unofficial schematics'. > 2. Approximately 8 5.25 disk drives, all failed and in need of repair. If these are from the 9836, they'll be 40 cylinder 2-head units. Either Tandon or MPI I think. > 3. Full manual sets for Basic and Pascal in t 2 versions of each. I owuld actually be interested in at least one set of each of those manuals. I think they'll be on the Australian museum site, but it is decidedly non-trivial for me to download and print them. > 4. A collection of memory cards and math coprocessor cards. Again, I would be interested in a coprocessor card, this being one of the DIO cards I don't yet have... > 5. Both 3.5 and 5.25 original operating system disks. The 3.5" disks are probably available from the Australian site, the 5.25" are not, and IMHO should be archived. Later 9826s and 9836s will start fro mexternal drives (so that you can cable up a 9122 and boot from 3.5" disks), but early ones (BOOTROM 2.0 and earlier) will only boot from the intenral 5.25" drive. Peopl with such machines have problems finding boot media. > 6. A collection of 7470 and 7475 plotters most of which are working. I assume all HPIB interfaced? > 7. A collection of various Thinkjet printers and other HP printers, I would be interested to know what 'other' printers you have... > 8. Various HPIB cables > 9. IEM Fortran77 compiler and manuals. > Several 9122 3.25 disk drives > > I have been using these machines for 25 years and have recently changed to > Windows based systems. I do not have the heart just to throw these items You know, I consider that to be a downgrade :-) > away so please let me know if you need further details or have any interest > in these items. > > Marek Pawlik -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 5 13:33:28 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 19:33:28 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PDP8 spares required In-Reply-To: <005b01c96f42$4c5519a0$e4ff4ce0$@net> from "SAS Ltd" at Jan 5, 9 02:31:23 pm Message-ID: > > I am trying to keep a PDP8 computer alive which controls a measurement The term 'PDP8' covers a wide range of machines, from ones built from discrete transsitors to microprocessors. Can you please give an indication as to which PDP11 this is. > system. I have a need for spares for this computer, in particular 16k memory > boards and all other boards. In fact the only parts I am now sure about are > the power supply and backplane. Would you consider component-level repair? These machines were generally very well documented (schematics, theory-of-operation manuals, etc), and the chips are mostly still very easy to find. And I am sure there are people who could assist in said repair. -tony From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Jan 5 14:01:44 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 21:01:44 +0100 Subject: HP9836 hardware. software and manuals availability In-Reply-To: References: <005a01c96f42$4a65a5b0$df30f110$@net> from "SAS Ltd" at Jan 5, 9 02:31:23 pm Message-ID: <3893ED0919B44EB0B7BEE137DB29AC39@xp1800> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Tony Duell > Verzonden: maandag 5 januari 2009 20:30 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > CC: srp at saslab.net > Onderwerp: Re: HP9836 hardware. software and manuals availability > > > > > I have a large collection of hardware, software and manuals > relating > > to the > > HP9836 computer. > > For the uninitated on Classiccmp, this is a 68000-based > computer (OK, there was a very late version with a 68010 in > it...). It's a desktop machine with a built-in keyboard Not always I mine has a separated keyboard (photo at www.hpmuseum.net) > and 2 5.25" floppy drives. There are 8 'DIO' expansion slots, 4 of > whcih can take boards with external connectors, the other 4 > take boards without connectors, like memory, DMA controller, > etc. There is a built-in HPIB interface, but nothing else (in > particualr, there is not serial port). > > There are 2 main versions. The 9836A has a single-bit > graphics board and a monochrome monitor. The 9836C has a 4 > bit-per-pixel graphics oard, a colour lookup tale, adn a > colour monitor. > > > The following items are available to anyone who would like them and > > who could collect them from Buckinghamshire. I will only give an > > outline of the items available although \I can provide more > detailed listings on request: > > I would be interested in seeing said lists... Do you want one > person to take the lot, or would you consider splitting it? > > > > 1. 5 Hp9836 computers of which 2 are fully functioning. The > other 3 have > > various failed subsystems but they could easily be > cannibalised into 2 > > working systems. > > There is no way I can house any more of these machines, alas > (darn it, I > already have a 9836A and a 9836CU, along with a 9826 (similar > machine but > with one floppy drive and a small mono monitor buiit in where > the second > drive would be). > > However, I might be ale to help the new owner get all the > machine going > again. I've done considerale component-level repair on these > machines, > and I have a pile of 'unofficial schematics'. > > > 2. Approximately 8 5.25 disk drives, all failed and in need > of repair. > > If these are from the 9836, they'll be 40 cylinder 2-head > units. Either > Tandon or MPI I think. > > > 3. Full manual sets for Basic and Pascal in t 2 versions of each. > > I owuld actually be interested in at least one set of each of those > manuals. I think they'll be on the Australian museum site, but it is > decidedly non-trivial for me to download and print them. > > > 4. A collection of memory cards and math coprocessor cards. > > Again, I would be interested in a coprocessor card, this > being one of the > DIO cards I don't yet have... > > > 5. Both 3.5 and 5.25 original operating system disks. > > The 3.5" disks are probably available from the Australian > site, the 5.25" > are not, and IMHO should be archived. Later 9826s and 9836s > will start > fro mexternal drives (so that you can cable up a 9122 and > boot from 3.5" > disks), but early ones (BOOTROM 2.0 and earlier) will only > boot from the > intenral 5.25" drive. Peopl with such machines have problems > finding boot > media. > > > 6. A collection of 7470 and 7475 plotters most of which are working. > > I assume all HPIB interfaced? > > > 7. A collection of various Thinkjet printers and other HP printers, > > I would be interested to know what 'other' printers you have... > > > 8. Various HPIB cables > > 9. IEM Fortran77 compiler and manuals. > > Several 9122 3.25 disk drives > > > > I have been using these machines for 25 years and have > recently changed to > > Windows based systems. I do not have the heart just to > throw these items > > You know, I consider that to be a downgrade :-) > > > away so please let me know if you need further details or > have any interest > > in these items. > > > > Marek Pawlik > > -tony -Rik From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 5 14:14:45 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 20:14:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP9836 hardware. software and manuals availability In-Reply-To: <3893ED0919B44EB0B7BEE137DB29AC39@xp1800> from "Rik Bos" at Jan 5, 9 09:01:44 pm Message-ID: > > For the uninitated on Classiccmp, this is a 68000-based > > computer (OK, there was a very late version with a 68010 in > > it...). It's a desktop machine with a built-in keyboard > > Not always I mine has a separated keyboard (photo at www.hpmuseum.net) And this is an 9836? Original HP? I have never heard of that version. What is the interface between the keyboard and the rest of the machine? The all-in-one 9836's keyboard is lust a matrix of switches (and a rotary encoder for the twiddleknob) with a 34 way ribbon cable linking it to the motherboard. The motherboard cotnains an 8041 microcontroller adn a bit of TTL to scna the keyboard. Of course other machines in the 9000/200 family used either a custom serial interface for the keyboard (HP9816) or HP-HIL (HP9817). Waht dows your separate-keyboard 9836 use? -tony From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Jan 5 14:55:47 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 21:55:47 +0100 Subject: HP9836 hardware. software and manuals availability In-Reply-To: References: <3893ED0919B44EB0B7BEE137DB29AC39@xp1800> from "Rik Bos" at Jan 5, 9 09:01:44 pm Message-ID: They just made the keyboard cable longer. The hardware isn't changed. I'll send you some pictures about the modefication (tomorrow). -Rik > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Tony Duell > Verzonden: maandag 5 januari 2009 21:15 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Re: HP9836 hardware. software and manuals availability > > > > For the uninitated on Classiccmp, this is a 68000-based computer > > > (OK, there was a very late version with a 68010 in it...). It's a > > > desktop machine with a built-in keyboard > > > > Not always I mine has a separated keyboard (photo at > www.hpmuseum.net) > > And this is an 9836? Original HP? I have never heard of that version. > > What is the interface between the keyboard and the rest of > the machine? > The all-in-one 9836's keyboard is lust a matrix of switches > (and a rotary encoder for the twiddleknob) with a 34 way > ribbon cable linking it to the motherboard. The motherboard > cotnains an 8041 microcontroller adn a bit of TTL to scna the > keyboard. > > Of course other machines in the 9000/200 family used either a > custom serial interface for the keyboard (HP9816) or HP-HIL (HP9817). > > Waht dows your separate-keyboard 9836 use? > > -tony > From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon Jan 5 15:08:39 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 21:08:39 +0000 Subject: HP9836 hardware. software and manuals availability In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1231189719.13249.0.camel@elric> On Mon, 2009-01-05 at 20:14 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > > The all-in-one 9836's keyboard is lust a matrix of switches (and a rotary Steady on, old chap... Gordon From pontus at update.uu.se Mon Jan 5 15:27:42 2009 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 22:27:42 +0100 Subject: PDP-8/e rack questions Message-ID: <49627B4E.3080606@update.uu.se> Hello. I recently acquired a PDP-8/e with a TU56 and a PC04(I think) with reader only. I've also gotten a DEC rack, but only one set of rails which I think are wrong and incomplete to boot. I've done some searching on bitsavers, but I've only found partial depictions of the actual rails. So, what I'm wondering is what does the rails for a PDP-8/e look like? These are the ones I got (same rails, different angles): http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/pdp8/rails_1.jpg http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/pdp8/rails_2.jpg What does the rails for a TU56 look like? I could not find any holes on the sides, are they simply screwed in place with the holes behind the flip-front? My TU56: http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/pdp8/tu56.jpg And what does the rails for a PC04 look like? I found this picture over at Mikes great corestore site: http://www.corestore.org/8i-2.jpg, which shows part of it. Also, the full height PDP family rack was called H960, but what was the shorter version called, depicted here: http://www.corestore.org/8m-1.jpg If you have any of the above mounting kits, I would be interested in buying or trading. I don't have much to trade with though, mostly SGI and Sun machines. /Pontus. From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Mon Jan 5 15:37:40 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 16:37:40 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/e rack questions References: <49627B4E.3080606@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <18786.32164.759003.207822@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> >>>>> "pontus" == pontus writes: pontus> What does the rails for a TU56 look like? I could not find pontus> any holes on the sides, are they simply screwed in place with pontus> the holes behind the flip-front? My TU56: pontus> http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/pdp8/tu56.jpg That's how I remember it (on the PDP11 -- but same rack and the tape drive chassis is the same). One drive TU56... interesting, didn't know those existed. I've only seen pictures of one drive TU55s, but clearly that's not what you have (the unit selector switch gives it away). paul From pontus at update.uu.se Mon Jan 5 15:46:00 2009 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 22:46:00 +0100 Subject: PDP-8/e rack questions In-Reply-To: <18786.32164.759003.207822@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> References: <49627B4E.3080606@update.uu.se> <18786.32164.759003.207822@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> Message-ID: <49627F98.9000607@update.uu.se> > One drive TU56... interesting, didn't know those existed. I've only > seen pictures of one drive TU55s, but clearly that's not what you have > (the unit selector switch gives it away). > It seems that the number of drives are optional, it is clearly room for one more drive, and there are holes ready for mounting the motors and another faceplate. Cheers, Pontus. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jan 5 15:50:17 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 16:50:17 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/e rack questions In-Reply-To: <49627B4E.3080606@update.uu.se> References: <49627B4E.3080606@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 4:27 PM, Pontus wrote: > Hello. > > I recently acquired a PDP-8/e with a TU56 and a PC04(I think) with > reader only. Nice. > What does the rails for a TU56 look like? I could not find any holes on > the sides, are they simply screwed in place with the holes behind the > flip-front? > My TU56: http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/pdp8/tu56.jpg My recollection is that you do just bolt the drive to the rack, no rails. > And what does the rails for a PC04 look like? I found this picture over > at Mikes great corestore site: http://www.corestore.org/8i-2.jpg, which > shows part of it. My PC04 has a set of rails that are half as deep as the rack, with a connecting bar for stiffness, and looks exactly like the one in the picture... the left and right rails are the grey parts with the large triangle, and the connecting bar is cadmium-plated steel, part of which you can barely see in the picture. The device rails are the same as other devices of the era (grey steel with sort of a _+-----+_ cross-section, but only as deep as the PC04 itself - i.e., they are *not* 3' long and do not hang out from the back. Probably the most common device of the era with that style of slide is the RX01/RX02 disk drive, but the RX rails _are_ as deep as the rack (same cross-section and color scheme, etc). I even have a few devices with 3rd party chrome-finish rails, but they rarely fit the factory holes in the CPU and device chassis, so are typically re-drilled. > Also, the full height PDP family rack was called H960, but what was the > shorter version called, depicted here: > http://www.corestore.org/8m-1.jpg I even have one of those (full of PDP-11 gear), but I don't know the DEC model number. > If you have any of the above mounting kits, I would be interested in > buying or trading... Sorry. I, too, have more devices than rails. For light-weight devices (PC04, not RK05), you might consider modern slide-out shelves. For heavier devices, you might consider fixed shelves. They will be easier to find than real DEC rails. Many modern rails are snap-on, and will be "interesting" to retrofit to 30-year-old devices, but not impossible, if all you really need is something that slides in and out. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jan 5 15:52:01 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 16:52:01 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/e rack questions In-Reply-To: <49627F98.9000607@update.uu.se> References: <49627B4E.3080606@update.uu.se> <18786.32164.759003.207822@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> <49627F98.9000607@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 4:46 PM, Pontus wrote: > >> One drive TU56... interesting, didn't know those existed. I've only >> seen pictures of one drive TU55s, but clearly that's not what you have >> (the unit selector switch gives it away). >> > It seems that the number of drives are optional, it is clearly room for > one more drive, and there are holes ready for mounting the motors and > another faceplate. I have seen reference in handbooks to single-drive TU56s, but I have only seen dual-drive units in the field up close and in person. -ethan From pontus at update.uu.se Mon Jan 5 16:06:09 2009 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 23:06:09 +0100 Subject: PDP-8/e rack questions In-Reply-To: References: <49627B4E.3080606@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <49628451.3020208@update.uu.se> > My PC04 has a set of rails that are half as deep as the rack, with a > connecting bar for stiffness, and looks exactly like the one in the > picture... the left and right rails are the grey parts with the large > triangle, and the connecting bar is cadmium-plated steel, part of > which you can barely see in the picture. > Ok, then I think I've seen them in person, but I was unsure. > Sorry. I, too, have more devices than rails. > Seems to be the norm :) > For light-weight devices (PC04, not RK05), you might consider modern > slide-out shelves. For heavier devices, you might consider fixed > shelves. They will be easier to find than real DEC rails. Many > modern rails are snap-on, and will be "interesting" to retrofit to > 30-year-old devices, but not impossible, if all you really need is > something that slides in and out. > The CPU box would be nice to have on a proper slide rail. But the peripherals, once restored, will probably not be moved so much. So I'll look for modern shelves. Thanks, Pontus. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jan 5 16:31:46 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 17:31:46 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/e rack questions In-Reply-To: References: <49627B4E.3080606@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Jan 5, 2009, at 4:50 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> What does the rails for a TU56 look like? I could not find any >> holes on >> the sides, are they simply screwed in place with the holes behind the >> flip-front? >> My TU56: http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/pdp8/tu56.jpg > > My recollection is that you do just bolt the drive to the rack, no > rails. Yes...Release the two top latches on the front panel, swing it down, and bolt the front chassis ears to the rack. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Mon Jan 5 16:32:45 2009 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 23:32:45 +0100 Subject: PDP-8/e rack questions In-Reply-To: References: <49627B4E.3080606@update.uu.se> Message-ID: > Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 16:50:17 -0500 > From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: PDP-8/e rack questions > > On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 4:27 PM, Pontus wrote: >> >> Also, the full height PDP family rack was called H960, but what >> was the shorter version called, depicted here: >> http://www.corestore.org/8m-1.jpg If I am not mistaken they are called H950. Come to think of it, in H960 fit *6* 10.5" high units, in an H950 fit *4* 10.5" high units :-) But as said, not 100% sure that they are called H950. Anyway, I would love to get one "H950" here in The Netherlands! - Henk. From frustum at pacbell.net Mon Jan 5 16:34:26 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 16:34:26 -0600 Subject: two old computer books for the cost of shipping Message-ID: <49628AF2.9020808@pacbell.net> "Logical Design of Digital Computers", Montgomery Phister, Jr., (c) 1958, 5th printing 1960. hardback w/cover, 400 pages, good shape. "Digital Computer Design", Braun, 1963. hardback, 600 pages, good shape. Shipped from Austin, TX Both have basics of boolean logic, branch out into more system level issues, have detail on memory types and issues, circuit level considerations. From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Mon Jan 5 16:37:54 2009 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 23:37:54 +0100 Subject: PDP-8/e rack questions In-Reply-To: References: <49627B4E.3080606@update.uu.se> Message-ID: > From: mcguire at neurotica.com > Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 17:31:46 -0500 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > CC: > Subject: Re: PDP-8/e rack questions > > On Jan 5, 2009, at 4:50 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> What does the rails for a TU56 look like? I could not find any >>> holes on the sides, are they simply screwed in place with the >>> holes behind the flip-front? >>> My TU56: http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/pdp8/tu56.jpg >> >> My recollection is that you do just bolt the drive to the rack, >> no rails. > > Yes...Release the two top latches on the front panel, swing it > down, and bolt the front chassis ears to the rack. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL That is how my TU56 is hung in the H960 rack. You need help to mount the TU56. I did it alone, and remember that is was heavy to do on my own, hanging the TU56 in the 5th 10.5" position, counting from the bottom :-) - Henk. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jan 5 17:04:17 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 16:04:17 -0700 Subject: PDP-8/e rack questions In-Reply-To: References: <49627B4E.3080606@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <496291F1.4080202@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > > Yes...Release the two top latches on the front panel, swing it down, > and bolt the front chassis ears to the rack. I am surprised that you don't just weld them into the racks :) > -Dave > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Jan 5 17:13:37 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 18:13:37 -0500 Subject: PDP8 spares required In-Reply-To: <4961E284.8930.FD52C1F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <005b01c96f42$4c5519a0$e4ff4ce0$@net> <20090105154957.GA29914@Update.UU.SE> <07E0D383-7AB0-40B4-B0E5-DFCF70F5DB2E@neurotica.com> <4961E284.8930.FD52C1F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > I suspect that the military also has a fair number of them. A couple > of years ago, I duplicated some RX02 floppies that were used in a rig > for maintaining C130 transports. Not 8s - they were never very popular with the military, even though Straight-8s were tagged with JETDS nomenclature of AN/GSQ-something. During the very early 1970s, I think Novas claimed most of what ground the PDP-8s would be good for. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Jan 5 17:16:58 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 18:16:58 -0500 Subject: PDP8 spares required In-Reply-To: References: <005b01c96f42$4c5519a0$e4ff4ce0$@net> <20090105154957.GA29914@Update.UU.SE> <07E0D383-7AB0-40B4-B0E5-DFCF70F5DB2E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > They work, and it always easy to replace them. Well, some of the people I know that support 12-bitters have a wildly different opinion. Most PDP-8 users would love to see the things go away for something that could be replaced with stuff purchased at Best Buy. But, the costs of conversions... -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jan 5 17:26:13 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 18:26:13 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/e rack questions In-Reply-To: <496291F1.4080202@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <49627B4E.3080606@update.uu.se> <496291F1.4080202@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <6246D5C4-B242-485D-B97D-189B5DDCE0EB@neurotica.com> On Jan 5, 2009, at 6:04 PM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >> Yes...Release the two top latches on the front panel, swing it >> down, and bolt the front chassis ears to the rack. > > I am surprised that you don't just weld them into the racks :) That'd make reconfiguration a bit problematic. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From marvin at west.net Mon Jan 5 17:53:21 2009 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 15:53:21 -0800 Subject: Stuff for Sale Message-ID: <49629D71.67757758@west.net> I'm starting to put stuff up for sale again on the Vintage Computer & Gaming Marketplace. New stuff I put up include the 13 1950-51 Radio-Electronics magazines that have the Simon Relay computer series, Omnitronix RS-232 for Vic-20/C64, and other such stuff. I plan on putting new stuff up daily. http://marketplace.vintage-computer.com/ If something doesn't sell in two weeks, I usually just stick it in the store. There are some interesting things up for sale by others as well. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 5 18:26:33 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 16:26:33 -0800 Subject: PDP8 spares required In-Reply-To: References: <005b01c96f42$4c5519a0$e4ff4ce0$@net>, <4961E284.8930.FD52C1F@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <496234B9.16817.11164B07@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Jan 2009 at 18:13, William Donzelli wrote: > Not 8s - they were never very popular with the military, even though > Straight-8s were tagged with JETDS nomenclature of AN/GSQ-something. > During the very early 1970s, I think Novas claimed most of what ground > the PDP-8s would be good for. These were definitely RX02 floppies--that "funny" DEC MFM is pretty distinctive. Maybe 11's? I've got the images somewhere here; I'll have to take a gander at them when I get a chance. Cheers, Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Jan 5 18:31:32 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 19:31:32 -0500 Subject: PDP8 spares required In-Reply-To: <496234B9.16817.11164B07@cclist.sydex.com> References: <005b01c96f42$4c5519a0$e4ff4ce0$@net> <4961E284.8930.FD52C1F@cclist.sydex.com> <496234B9.16817.11164B07@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > These were definitely RX02 floppies--that "funny" DEC MFM is pretty > distinctive. Maybe 11's? I've got the images somewhere here; I'll > have to take a gander at them when I get a chance. Certainly 11s and VAX machines were more common associated with military service. The VAX-11/785 RCS just received is ex-Sikorsky, and spent most of its life - the latter half, anyway - writing a few floppies a year, and nothing else. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jan 5 18:32:49 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 19:32:49 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/e rack questions In-Reply-To: References: <49627B4E.3080606@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <103D3B17-A5C9-4426-AB8A-6C4613F4B6FB@neurotica.com> On Jan 5, 2009, at 5:37 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: >>>> What does the rails for a TU56 look like? I could not find any >>>> holes on the sides, are they simply screwed in place with the >>>> holes behind the flip-front? >>>> My TU56: http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/pdp8/tu56.jpg >>> >>> My recollection is that you do just bolt the drive to the rack, >>> no rails. >> >> Yes...Release the two top latches on the front panel, swing it >> down, and bolt the front chassis ears to the rack. >> > That is how my TU56 is hung in the H960 rack. You need help to > mount the TU56. I did it alone, and remember that is was heavy > to do on my own, hanging the TU56 in the 5th 10.5" position, > counting from the bottom :-) I did mine alone as well. It is definitely a very heavy machine. I had back pains for days after doing that. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From db at db.net Mon Jan 5 18:46:22 2009 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2009 19:46:22 -0500 Subject: PDP8 spares required In-Reply-To: References: <005b01c96f42$4c5519a0$e4ff4ce0$@net> <4961E284.8930.FD52C1F@cclist.sydex.com> <496234B9.16817.11164B07@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20090106004622.GA29293@night.db.net> On Mon, Jan 05, 2009 at 07:31:32PM -0500, William Donzelli wrote: > > These were definitely RX02 floppies--that "funny" DEC MFM is pretty > > distinctive. Maybe 11's? I've got the images somewhere here; I'll > > have to take a gander at them when I get a chance. > > Certainly 11s and VAX machines were more common associated with There was (still is?) a tempest shielded pdp-11 for military use. - Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 5 19:10:42 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 17:10:42 -0800 Subject: PDP8 spares required In-Reply-To: References: <005b01c96f42$4c5519a0$e4ff4ce0$@net>, <496234B9.16817.11164B07@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <49623F12.2625.113EB45E@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Jan 2009 at 19:31, William Donzelli wrote: > > These were definitely RX02 floppies--that "funny" DEC MFM is pretty > > distinctive. Maybe 11's? I've got the images somewhere here; I'll > > have to take a gander at them when I get a chance. > > Certainly 11s and VAX machines were more common associated with > military service. The VAX-11/785 RCS just received is ex-Sikorsky, and > spent most of its life - the latter half, anyway - writing a few > floppies a year, and nothing else. ISTR (I'll have to go back and check my notes), that this was a maintenance setup for C130s--strictly ground-crew stuff. I'm pretty sure it was at Warner-Robbins. The floppies were pretty clearly labeled as program, not data. Cheers, Chuck From useddec at gmail.com Tue Jan 6 00:22:35 2009 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 00:22:35 -0600 Subject: PDP8 spares required In-Reply-To: <005b01c96f42$4c5519a0$e4ff4ce0$@net> References: <005b01c96f42$4c5519a0$e4ff4ce0$@net> Message-ID: <624966d60901052222y6e0b1ce5o9d82108f46a0e2dc@mail.gmail.com> 16K memory boards sounds like a PDP8-A. I might have a few of those somewhere. On Mon, Jan 5, 2009 at 8:31 AM, SAS Ltd wrote: > I am trying to keep a PDP8 computer alive which controls a measurement > system. I have a need for spares for this computer, in particular 16k > memory > boards and all other boards. In fact the only parts I am now sure about are > the power supply and backplane. > > > > Any suggestions would be appreciated. > > Marek Pawlik > > From grant at stockly.com Tue Jan 6 00:42:33 2009 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 21:42:33 -0900 Subject: Free Calculators Message-ID: <0KD100DC0EN4XY90@msgmmp-1.gci.net> I have a SR-51 TI calculator. I don't know if it works. Available for shipping costs. I also have a HP-35 with manual, purchase receipt, hard case, and power supply. It doesn't work with the power supply as is, but I don't know if the power supply works. Available for shipping costs. If they aren't worth anything, I can send them to the recycler. I don't know if there are any useful parts or not. I also have some little computer/calculator units. They are like the TRS-80 portable version, except smaller. I'm not sure what I'm going to do with them. From W.F.J.Mueller at gsi.de Mon Jan 5 14:06:51 2009 From: W.F.J.Mueller at gsi.de (Walter F.J. Mueller) Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2009 21:06:51 +0100 Subject: [pups] jove editor under 2.11BSD and cursor keys In-Reply-To: <49614D6E.2090408@softjar.se> References: <4960F68E.1010507@gsi.de> <496116C4.8050101@gsi.de> <49614D6E.2090408@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4962685B.30005@gsi.de> Johnny Billquist wrote: > Walter F. Mueller wrote: >> .... >> I get whenever I hit one of the cursor keys the message >> >> [ESC O unbound] >... > Please note the difference between "[" and "O"... :-) > > To give you a little more help: someone or something is changing your > terminal to have application cursor keys. > (And to point out what should be obvious now: your cursor keys can > actually send two different kind of codes, depending on a setup parameter.) > > Johnny Thanks Johnny, that was exactly the problem. jove sets the terminal (or the emulator) into 'Application Cursor Key' and 'Application Keypad' mode. Looking in xterm at the VT Options popup (with CONTROL-MB2) shows this nicely. Binding the 'ansi-codes' function of Jove 4.9 (that's what comes with 2.11BSD) to \[O resolves the cursor issue. What I still don't understand is why jove comes with defaults which don't work. It puts the cursor and keypad keys into application mode, which makes perfect sense especially for the keypad, and than looks for \[[ rather \[O. Probably to make retrocomputing more fun :). Thanks and with best regards, Walter From hachti at hachti.de Tue Jan 6 02:28:15 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 09:28:15 +0100 Subject: PDP-8/e rack questions In-Reply-To: References: <49627B4E.3080606@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <4963161F.5050002@hachti.de> > Yes...Release the two top latches on the front panel, swing it down, > and bolt the front chassis ears to the rack. It's done this way in my LAB-8e. In my other 8/e, there's an additional kind of shelf, as I remember. Just for easier removal. Best wishes, Philipp :-) -- http://www.hachti.de From hachti at hachti.de Tue Jan 6 02:35:04 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 09:35:04 +0100 Subject: for the true collector... In-Reply-To: <18786.18054.617027.825327@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> References: <49623DF6.8040604@bluewin.ch> <18786.18054.617027.825327@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> Message-ID: <496317B8.2070900@hachti.de> > Presumably an "instrumentation tape" rather than a digital data tape > drive. Neat, though. I wonder if it could handle digital tape. Would be interesting if it it could be used to read out problematic 7-track tapes. Perhaps it can be used transparently. Would allow to do the data recovery in software on a modern computer... Ph -- http://www.hachti.de From pontus at update.uu.se Tue Jan 6 04:43:01 2009 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 11:43:01 +0100 Subject: PDP-8/e rack questions In-Reply-To: <4963161F.5050002@hachti.de> References: <49627B4E.3080606@update.uu.se> <4963161F.5050002@hachti.de> Message-ID: <496335B5.1090204@update.uu.se> Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > >> Yes...Release the two top latches on the front panel, swing it >> down, and bolt the front chassis ears to the rack. > > It's done this way in my LAB-8e. > In my other 8/e, there's an additional kind of shelf, as I remember. > Just for easier > removal. > Thanks Hachti. I've have some kind of shelf in my rack as well that I will probably end up using for the backbreaking TU56. I'm still curious about the actual CPU box rails. You have some great pictures on your site, maybe you could take one or two on the CPU rails for me? Kind Regards, Pontus. From doug at stillhq.com Tue Jan 6 05:04:20 2009 From: doug at stillhq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 22:04:20 +1100 Subject: Free Calculators In-Reply-To: <0KD100DC0EN4XY90@msgmmp-1.gci.net> References: <0KD100DC0EN4XY90@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Message-ID: <49633AB4.4020909@stillhq.com> Hi Grant, I love little TI calcs - Happy to pay for shipping to Australia if they are still on. regarding the others, have a look on e-pay. Hapy to take those as well, but can't spend too much lest I attract the attention of my wife!! Doug Grant Stockly wrote: > I have a SR-51 TI calculator. I don't know if it works. Available > for shipping costs. > > I also have a HP-35 with manual, purchase receipt, hard case, and > power supply. It doesn't work with the power supply as is, but I > don't know if the power supply works. Available for shipping costs. > > If they aren't worth anything, I can send them to the recycler. I > don't know if there are any useful parts or not. > > I also have some little computer/calculator units. They are like the > TRS-80 portable version, except smaller. I'm not sure what I'm going > to do with them. > > -- Doug Jackson, I-RAP, MAIPM, MIEEE Principal Information Security Consultant EWA-AUSTRALIA PO Box 6308 O'Connor ACT 2602 Level 1, 214 Northbourne Ave, Braddon ACT 2612 Tel: +61 (0)2 6230 6833 Fax: +61 (0)2 6230 5833 Mob: +61 (0)414 986 878 http://www.ewa-australia.com ============================================ IMPORTANT: This email remains the property of Electronic Warfare Associates - Australia. If you have received this email in error, you are requested to contact doug.jackson at ewa-australia.com or Ph +61 2 62306833 and delete the email. This message is not to be copied or distributed to other parties without the express permission of the author. Any personal information in this email must be handled in accordance with the Privacy Act 1988 (Cth). ============================================ From steve at cosam.org Tue Jan 6 05:07:36 2009 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 12:07:36 +0100 Subject: Lifting heavy rack-mount gear (was Re: PDP-8/e rack questions) Message-ID: <95838e090901060307ia16512dt69ff5866f7d14425@mail.gmail.com> 2009/1/6 Dave McGuire : > On Jan 5, 2009, at 5:37 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: >> That is how my TU56 is hung in the H960 rack. You need help to >> mount the TU56. I did it alone, and remember that is was heavy >> to do on my own, hanging the TU56 in the 5th 10.5" position, >> counting from the bottom :-) > > I did mine alone as well. It is definitely a very heavy machine. I had > back pains for days after doing that. > Probably hard to justify the cost for occasional use, but I'd really like to get one of these before I do myself any permanent damage: http://www.edmolift.co.uk/lift_trolleys.htm [link to random supplier of lift trolleys] I reckon you could slide out your kit, then pump that thing up underneath before undoing the screws. Replacement is the reverse of the removal procedure, as they say. -- Steve Maddison http://www.cosam.org/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 6 05:34:33 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 06:34:33 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/e rack questions In-Reply-To: <49627B4E.3080606@update.uu.se> References: <49627B4E.3080606@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Jan 5, 2009, at 4:27 PM, Pontus wrote: > I recently acquired a PDP-8/e with a TU56 and a PC04(I think) with > reader only. I've also gotten a DEC rack, but only one set of rails > which I think are wrong and incomplete to boot. I've done some > searching > on bitsavers, but I've only found partial depictions of the actual > rails. > > So, what I'm wondering is what does the rails for a PDP-8/e look like? > These are the ones I got (same rails, different angles): > http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/pdp8/rails_1.jpg > http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/pdp8/rails_2.jpg Those are definitely not PDP-8/e rack slides. I pulled mine out a bit and took some pics: http://www.neurotica.com/misc/pdp8e-rack-slides-1.jpg http://www.neurotica.com/misc/pdp8e-rack-slides-2.jpg Every rack-mounted PDP-8/e I've seen has had slides like this. These slides were made by ChassisTrak. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pontus at update.uu.se Tue Jan 6 05:47:09 2009 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 12:47:09 +0100 Subject: PDP-8/e rack questions In-Reply-To: References: <49627B4E.3080606@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <496344BD.9090605@update.uu.se> > > Those are definitely not PDP-8/e rack slides. I pulled mine out a > bit and took some pics: > > http://www.neurotica.com/misc/pdp8e-rack-slides-1.jpg > http://www.neurotica.com/misc/pdp8e-rack-slides-2.jpg > > Every rack-mounted PDP-8/e I've seen has had slides like this. > These slides were made by ChassisTrak. Thanks Dave. Now I know what I need to look for. They look pretty much like thinner versions of what I've seen in a 11/70 and its peripherals. Cheers, Pontus. From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Tue Jan 6 05:50:52 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 06:50:52 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/e rack questions In-Reply-To: References: <49627B4E.3080606@update.uu.se> Message-ID: Those sure look like what we had on PDP-11 systems, too. At least for most things: the CPU and peripheral logic boxes. The rails Pontus shows do look familiar, though. My first guess is that they might come from later products, perhaps from boxes that are pulled out all the time rather than only for maintenance -- the RL01/02 drive, for example. paul > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire > Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 6:35 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Re: PDP-8/e rack questions > > On Jan 5, 2009, at 4:27 PM, Pontus wrote: > > I recently acquired a PDP-8/e with a TU56 and a PC04(I think) with > > reader only. I've also gotten a DEC rack, but only one set of rails > > which I think are wrong and incomplete to boot. I've done some > > searching > > on bitsavers, but I've only found partial depictions of the actual > > rails. > > > > So, what I'm wondering is what does the rails for a PDP-8/e look > like? > > These are the ones I got (same rails, different angles): > > http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/pdp8/rails_1.jpg > > http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/pdp8/rails_2.jpg > > Those are definitely not PDP-8/e rack slides. I pulled mine out a > bit and took some pics: > > http://www.neurotica.com/misc/pdp8e-rack-slides-1.jpg > http://www.neurotica.com/misc/pdp8e-rack-slides-2.jpg > > Every rack-mounted PDP-8/e I've seen has had slides like this. > These slides were made by ChassisTrak. > > -Dave > > > > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > From david at cantrell.org.uk Tue Jan 6 05:56:57 2009 From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 11:56:57 +0000 Subject: Z80 instruction fetch mechanism In-Reply-To: <495E7961.7030005@gmail.com> References: <495E7961.7030005@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090106115656.GA15813@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> On Fri, Jan 02, 2009 at 02:30:25PM -0600, Jules Richardson wrote: > Basically they were wondering what the internals of the Z80's instruction > fetch were, given that some instructions are multiple bytes in length, but > there's only a single-byte instruction register. Speaking from memory (fairly recent memory as it happens, from writing an emulator) there are two types of multi-byte instruction: 1. one byte instruction + data (eg a value to load into a register) 2. prefix byte(s) + one byte instruction (+ data for some instructions) The prefix bytes either: 1. effectively swap the HL and IX or IY register (the DD and FD prefixes) 2. change to a different instruction set (the CB and ED prefixes) 3. are insane and look suspiciously like the state machine doing a fandango (the DD CB and FD CB prefixes). AFAIK Zilog never documented any of these. That last case includes instructions like "attempt to reset bit 3 of the byte at (IX+42) and also put the result in register B, even if the new byte cannot be written at the said address". See this excellent page on how to decode an instruction byte, specifically these sections for the various prefix bytes: http://www.z80.info/decoding.htm#cb http://www.z80.info/decoding.htm#ed http://www.z80.info/decoding.htm#dd -- David Cantrell | Godless Liberal Elitist Us Germans take our humour very seriously -- German cultural attache talking to the Today Programme, about the German supposed lack of a sense of humour, 29 Aug 2001 From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 6 06:02:09 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 07:02:09 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/e rack questions In-Reply-To: References: <49627B4E.3080606@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <892A6073-A97D-4B5C-B791-AFE92FCB7459@neurotica.com> On Jan 5, 2009, at 5:32 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: >>> Also, the full height PDP family rack was called H960, but what >>> was the shorter version called, depicted here: >>> http://www.corestore.org/8m-1.jpg > > If I am not mistaken they are called H950. Come to think of it, > in H960 fit *6* 10.5" high units, in an H950 fit *4* 10.5" high > units :-) But as said, not 100% sure that they are called H950. > Anyway, I would love to get one "H950" here in The Netherlands! I know those racks; love 'em...I've never been able to find one. The guy I mentioned the other day (my childhood PDP mentor who is working on an 8/a for a factory) had several when I used to hang out at his place, but that was ~1985...they are long gone. I'll ask him what the part number was; he may remember. H950, though...I'm pretty sure that is the part number of the large rectangular bracket that the rear door mounts to on the rear of an H960. Page 6 of the PDP-8/e Illustrated Parts Breakdown suggests this (see item #24, referenced on page 8). I have one of these frames in my garage, from one of my racks...if I can find it, I'll take a look. The only thing I'm 100% sure about is that I've seen "H950" on a sticker somewhere on one of my 19" racks that looks exactly like an H960. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From david at cantrell.org.uk Tue Jan 6 06:09:50 2009 From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 12:09:50 +0000 Subject: Z80 instruction fetch mechanism In-Reply-To: <495EE500.4030201@pacbell.net> References: <495E7961.7030005@gmail.com> <495EE500.4030201@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <20090106120950.GB15813@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> On Fri, Jan 02, 2009 at 10:09:36PM -0600, Jim Battle wrote: > Rodnay Zaks had a fat Z80 book that went into quite some detail of the > timing of the bus and mentioned a hidden "W" register, but I don't recall > what that was for -- holding a byte temporarily during some do-si-do. I > have the book but it is buried in the garage. The book is Programming The Z80, now sadly out of print but commonly available second-hand. It's a very good book on assembler programming in general as well as being an excellent Z80 reference - although note that it ignores *all* the "undocumented" instructions. He also mentions a hidden Z register, but never mentions what W and Z are used for. In my emulator, I use W whenever doing things with (HL) and Z in the CP and CPI instructions. In both cases I could have used a temporary variable instead, but I chose early on to implement them as registers to keep the internal API a bit more consistent if I found myself using them. Source code, for those who care: http://drhyde.cvs.sourceforge.net/viewvc/drhyde/perlmodules/CPU-Emulator-Z80/lib/CPU/Emulator/Z80.pm?view=markup -- David Cantrell | Enforcer, South London Linguistic Massive Perl: the only language that makes Welsh look acceptable From quapla at xs4all.nl Tue Jan 6 06:22:12 2009 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 13:22:12 +0100 (CET) Subject: PDP-8/e rack questions Message-ID: <16859.213.169.196.228.1231244532.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> The 'short' rack is indeed a H950 (H950-AA). The one I have houses curently my 11/35 config (11/35, RX02, RL02). I'm considering to converting this rack into a GT40 setup, but I do miss the keyboard for it (LK40). Ed > On Jan 5, 2009, at 5:32 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: >>>> Also, the full height PDP family rack was called H960, but what >>>> was the shorter version called, depicted here: >>>> http://www.corestore.org/8m-1.jpg >> >> If I am not mistaken they are called H950. Come to think of it, >> in H960 fit *6* 10.5" high units, in an H950 fit *4* 10.5" high >> units :-) But as said, not 100% sure that they are called H950. >> Anyway, I would love to get one "H950" here in The Netherlands! > > I know those racks; love 'em...I've never been able to find one. > The guy I mentioned the other day (my childhood PDP mentor who is > working on an 8/a for a factory) had several when I used to hang out > at his place, but that was ~1985...they are long gone. I'll ask him > what the part number was; he may remember. > > H950, though...I'm pretty sure that is the part number of the > large rectangular bracket that the rear door mounts to on the rear of > an H960. Page 6 of the PDP-8/e Illustrated Parts Breakdown suggests > this (see item #24, referenced on page 8). I have one of these > frames in my garage, from one of my racks...if I can find it, I'll > take a look. > > The only thing I'm 100% sure about is that I've seen "H950" on a > sticker somewhere on one of my 19" racks that looks exactly like an > H960. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > > From djg at pdp8.net Tue Jan 6 07:26:33 2009 From: djg at pdp8.net (djg at pdp8.net) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 08:26:33 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/e rack questions Message-ID: <200901061326.n06DQXe18178@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> For my PC01 the rails can be seen here (third from top). Sounds like the PC04 rails are similar. They have an added plate to make the rack attachment stronger since they don't bolt at the back. http://www.pdp8.net/shows/vcfe08/pics/booth3.shtml http://www.pdp8.net/shows/vcfe08/pics/showing.shtml Normal rails work fine, my PC04 didn't have any so I used normal ones that attach both front and back. You can see that in the next picture. For the TU56 I cheated. I mounted angle iron below it which I can slide it in on and then bolt at my leisure. The drive has a lip which makes things a little strange but works pretty well. I used aluminum but that is messed up by sliding the drive. http://www.pdp8.net/shows/tcf05/pics/big_stuff.shtml?small The maintenance manual says how it is supposed to be installed. It has a a support bracket between the rails the drive rests on. (pg 2-3) http://www.pdp8online.com/pdp8cgi/query_docs/view.pl?id=27 From JELynch at stny.rr.com Tue Jan 6 07:47:24 2009 From: JELynch at stny.rr.com (James Lynch) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 08:47:24 -0500 Subject: Free Calculators In-Reply-To: <49633AB4.4020909@stillhq.com> References: <0KD100DC0EN4XY90@msgmmp-1.gci.net> <49633AB4.4020909@stillhq.com> Message-ID: <496360EC.6050508@stny.rr.com> Hi Grant, I would be happy to take the HP-35. Nanoman Doug Jackson wrote: > Hi Grant, > > I love little TI calcs - Happy to pay for shipping to Australia if > they are still on. > > regarding the others, have a look on e-pay. Hapy to take those as > well, but can't spend too much lest I attract the attention of my wife!! > > Doug > > > Grant Stockly wrote: >> I have a SR-51 TI calculator. I don't know if it works. Available >> for shipping costs. >> >> I also have a HP-35 with manual, purchase receipt, hard case, and >> power supply. It doesn't work with the power supply as is, but I >> don't know if the power supply works. Available for shipping costs. >> >> If they aren't worth anything, I can send them to the recycler. I >> don't know if there are any useful parts or not. >> >> I also have some little computer/calculator units. They are like the >> TRS-80 portable version, except smaller. I'm not sure what I'm going >> to do with them. >> >> > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 6 07:56:46 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 08:56:46 -0500 Subject: Lifting heavy rack-mount gear (was Re: PDP-8/e rack questions) In-Reply-To: <95838e090901060307ia16512dt69ff5866f7d14425@mail.gmail.com> References: <95838e090901060307ia16512dt69ff5866f7d14425@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Jan 6, 2009, at 6:07 AM, Steve Maddison wrote: >>> That is how my TU56 is hung in the H960 rack. You need help to >>> mount the TU56. I did it alone, and remember that is was heavy >>> to do on my own, hanging the TU56 in the 5th 10.5" position, >>> counting from the bottom :-) >> >> I did mine alone as well. It is definitely a very heavy >> machine. I had >> back pains for days after doing that. >> > > Probably hard to justify the cost for occasional use, but I'd really > like to get one of these before I do myself any permanent damage: > > http://www.edmolift.co.uk/lift_trolleys.htm [link to random supplier > of lift trolleys] > > I reckon you could slide out your kit, then pump that thing up > underneath before undoing the screws. Replacement is the reverse of > the removal procedure, as they say. I had one of those at work many years ago. I loved it. When I achieve world domination, I'll buy one for myself. :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Jan 6 08:56:18 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 14:56:18 +0000 Subject: Lifting heavy rack-mount gear (was Re: PDP-8/e rack questions) In-Reply-To: <95838e090901060307ia16512dt69ff5866f7d14425@mail.gmail.com> References: <95838e090901060307ia16512dt69ff5866f7d14425@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49637112.8080204@dunnington.plus.com> On 06/01/2009 11:07, Steve Maddison wrote: > 2009/1/6 Dave McGuire : >> On Jan 5, 2009, at 5:37 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: >>> That is how my TU56 is hung in the H960 rack. You need help to >>> mount the TU56. I did it alone, and remember that is was heavy >>> to do on my own, hanging the TU56 in the 5th 10.5" position, >>> counting from the bottom :-) >> I did mine alone as well. It is definitely a very heavy machine. I had >> back pains for days after doing that. > > Probably hard to justify the cost for occasional use, but I'd really > like to get one of these before I do myself any permanent damage: > http://www.edmolift.co.uk/lift_trolleys.htm [link to random supplier > of lift trolleys] Someone else (maybe Jay) mentioned Genie Load Lifters on the list a few years back, and I bought two of these for work -- they're perfect for rackmount kit and fold up to take very little space when not in use. http://www.genieindustries.com/ml-series/ml-1-2.asp I think ours cost about UKP280 last time we bought one, and it's worth every penny. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Jan 6 08:58:10 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 14:58:10 +0000 Subject: PDP-8/e rack questions In-Reply-To: References: <49627B4E.3080606@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <49637182.30706@dunnington.plus.com> On 06/01/2009 11:50, Paul Koning wrote: > Those sure look like what we had on PDP-11 systems, too. At least for > most things: the CPU and peripheral logic boxes. > > The rails Pontus shows do look familiar, though. My first guess is that > they might come from later products, perhaps from boxes that are pulled > out all the time rather than only for maintenance -- the RL01/02 drive, > for example. They're not off RL01/2 drives -- they're too fat. They don't look like anything I've seen on any DEC equipment; they look more like generic x86 server rack slides. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >> bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire >> Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 6:35 AM >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only >> Subject: Re: PDP-8/e rack questions >> >> On Jan 5, 2009, at 4:27 PM, Pontus wrote: >>> I recently acquired a PDP-8/e with a TU56 and a PC04(I think) with >>> reader only. I've also gotten a DEC rack, but only one set of rails >>> which I think are wrong and incomplete to boot. I've done some >>> searching >>> on bitsavers, but I've only found partial depictions of the actual >>> rails. >>> >>> So, what I'm wondering is what does the rails for a PDP-8/e look >> like? >>> These are the ones I got (same rails, different angles): >>> http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/pdp8/rails_1.jpg >>> http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/pdp8/rails_2.jpg >> Those are definitely not PDP-8/e rack slides. I pulled mine out a >> bit and took some pics: >> >> http://www.neurotica.com/misc/pdp8e-rack-slides-1.jpg >> http://www.neurotica.com/misc/pdp8e-rack-slides-2.jpg >> >> Every rack-mounted PDP-8/e I've seen has had slides like this. >> These slides were made by ChassisTrak. All of mine look like that too. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Jan 6 09:26:17 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 09:26:17 -0600 Subject: PDP-8/e rack questions In-Reply-To: <49637182.30706@dunnington.plus.com> References: <49627B4E.3080606@update.uu.se> <49637182.30706@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <49637819.8070904@gmail.com> Pete Turnbull wrote: > They're not off RL01/2 drives -- they're too fat. They don't look like > anything I've seen on any DEC equipment; they look more like generic x86 > server rack slides. Seconded. I've seen ones exactly like that on a lot of more modern equipment. Nice slides, just not original. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Jan 6 09:33:46 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 15:33:46 +0000 Subject: Jupiter Ace PCB In-Reply-To: <01N3Z80PWFO2MWQSXV@vms.eurokom.ie> References: <01N3Z80PWFO2MWQSXV@vms.eurokom.ie> Message-ID: <496379DA.1020502@philpem.me.uk> Peter Coghlan wrote: >> A few of you might remember the Jupiter Ace I had that took a 9V spike to >> the expansion slot -- and my futile attempts at repairing it. It's been well >> over four years since I sent it to a listmember who offered to repair it, and >> all attempts to get the board or the spares I sent with it have failed. At >> this point, I haven't seen hide nor hair of him in months, although he's >> apparently still updating his website... >> > > Hi Phil, > > If you are not going to let us know the identity of the person involved, > please at least inform the list owner. A lot of people regard membership > of the list as conferring a degree of trustworthyness and it would be a > shame if that was damaged. The person in question is Lee Davison. Specifically, the Lee Davison that maintains the website . I sent the Ace motherboard to him in ~2002, complete with about ?7 worth of stamps and a ready-filled-out Special Delivery sticker. The agreement was, he'd try and fix it, and if he couldn't fix it (or if I asked for it to be returned), he'd return it. I'm fully aware that postage prices have increased over the past few years, and I've offered to pay for them. The last time I heard from Lee was in April 2004; he said he didn't want to send it back "disassembled, which it is -- very much so". It can't be in much worse shape than it was when I sent it.. the CPU and RAM were removed, among other things. IIRC, it was due a full set of new IC sockets (the CPU socket was certainly well stuffed)... > Ps: I once repaired a Jupiter Ace for a friend. At the time, I had no idea > whatsoever how to diagnose the problem. Luckily, the defective RAM chip gave > itself away by overheating (to the point of burning my finger) and replacing > it sorted it out. Yeah, 2114s like doing that... I was going to build a RAM tester for 2114s at one point, until I realised that they don't usually fail with any degree of subtlety :) > I do have a very bad memory so I hope it wasn't me you sent your Ace to :-( > However, I don't fit the bill as I don't have a website :-) > Unless I've forgotten about that too... LOL! :) Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From frustum at pacbell.net Tue Jan 6 09:36:19 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 09:36:19 -0600 Subject: two old computer books for the cost of shipping In-Reply-To: <49628AF2.9020808@pacbell.net> References: <49628AF2.9020808@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <49637A73.2020409@pacbell.net> Jim Battle wrote: > "Logical Design of Digital Computers", Montgomery Phister, Jr., (c) > 1958, 5th printing 1960. hardback w/cover, 400 pages, good shape. > > "Digital Computer Design", Braun, 1963. hardback, 600 pages, good shape. I should have sent this earlier -- the books have been claimed. Thanks From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Jan 6 09:50:00 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 10:50:00 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/e rack questions In-Reply-To: <49637182.30706@dunnington.plus.com> References: <49627B4E.3080606@update.uu.se> <49637182.30706@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <200901061050.00110.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 06 January 2009, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 06/01/2009 11:50, Paul Koning wrote: > > Those sure look like what we had on PDP-11 systems, too. At least > > for most things: the CPU and peripheral logic boxes. > > > > The rails Pontus shows do look familiar, though. My first guess is > > that they might come from later products, perhaps from boxes that > > are pulled out all the time rather than only for maintenance -- the > > RL01/02 drive, for example. > > They're not off RL01/2 drives -- they're too fat. They don't look > like anything I've seen on any DEC equipment; they look more like > generic x86 server rack slides. There is one place that I've seen those recently on DEC equipment (I'm not 100% sure they're the same, but it is the same type), which is the rails for the massbuss controller in the bottom of a RM02/RM03 drive. > >>> These are the ones I got (same rails, different angles): > >>> http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/pdp8/rails_1.jpg > >>> http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/pdp8/rails_2.jpg Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From rickb at bensene.com Tue Jan 6 11:36:27 2009 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 09:36:27 -0800 Subject: PDP-8/e rack questions In-Reply-To: References: <49627B4E.3080606@update.uu.se> Message-ID: Dave McGuire helpfully wrote: > Those are definitely not PDP-8/e rack slides. I pulled mine out a > bit and took some pics: > > http://www.neurotica.com/misc/pdp8e-rack-slides-1.jpg > http://www.neurotica.com/misc/pdp8e-rack-slides-2.jpg > > Every rack-mounted PDP-8/e I've seen has had slides like this. > These slides were made by ChassisTrak. > I went and looked at the slides on my PDP-8/e in a standard DEC full-height rack, and they are identical (down to the labels) to those shown in the pix that Dave took. The 8/e system that I have (8/e, PC04 reader/punch, 1 RK05, 1 RX02, 2 serial ports, Timeshare/Memory Expansion, 16K Core, 8K MOS memory) is original as configured by DEC, so I'm sure that the slides for the 8/e are the correct ones. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Tue Jan 6 12:49:20 2009 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 18:49:20 +0000 Subject: [Fwd: AT&T UNIX PC 3B1 Chicago area, northwest] Message-ID: <1231267760.17228.1.camel@entasis> Reply to the From: address below, not to me - LJW -------- Forwarded Message -------- From: Cheryl & John Wilkins Reply-To: Cheryl & John Wilkins To: cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org Subject: AT&T UNIX PC 3B1 Chicago area, northwest Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 12:20:42 -0600 I have an AT&T UNIX PC 3B1 I'd like to get into good hands locally, northwest Chicago (ee.gg., Schaumburg, Hoffman Estates, Fox River areas). Indianapolis or Knoxville, TN, are possibilities, but less preferable. -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From nanoman at stny.rr.com Tue Jan 6 07:48:30 2009 From: nanoman at stny.rr.com (nanoman) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 08:48:30 -0500 Subject: Free Calculators In-Reply-To: <0KD100DC0EN4XY90@msgmmp-1.gci.net> References: <0KD100DC0EN4XY90@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Message-ID: <4963612E.40905@stny.rr.com> Grant, I would be happy to take the HP-35. Nanoman Grant Stockly wrote: > I have a SR-51 TI calculator. I don't know if it works. Available > for shipping costs. > > I also have a HP-35 with manual, purchase receipt, hard case, and > power supply. It doesn't work with the power supply as is, but I > don't know if the power supply works. Available for shipping costs. > > If they aren't worth anything, I can send them to the recycler. I > don't know if there are any useful parts or not. > > I also have some little computer/calculator units. They are like the > TRS-80 portable version, except smaller. I'm not sure what I'm going > to do with them. > > > From robinb at ruffnready.co.uk Tue Jan 6 10:49:04 2009 From: robinb at ruffnready.co.uk (robinb at ruffnready.co.uk) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 16:49:04 +0000 Subject: [pups] jove editor under 2.11BSD and cursor keys In-Reply-To: <4962685B.30005@gsi.de> Message-ID: IIRC the version of Jove that is on 2.11 was put on by me back in the late 80s to replace an even earlier version and I used a VT220 at home as opposed to xterm or whatever on a sim. As a result I was quite happy with using the defaults for whatever was set up for the then available hardware as I used a real PDP with real DEC terminals :-) Cheers Robin PS: It may have been updated since then I can't really recall. W.F.J.Mueller at gsi.de wrote: > Johnny Billquist wrote: > > Walter F. Mueller wrote: > >> .... > >> I get whenever I hit one of the cursor keys the message > >> > >> [ESC O unbound] > >... > > Please note the difference between "[" and "O"... :-) > > > > To give you a little more help: someone or something is changing your > > terminal to have application cursor keys. > > (And to point out what should be obvious now: your cursor keys can > > actually send two different kind of codes, depending on a setup parameter.) > > > > Johnny > > Thanks Johnny, that was exactly the problem. jove sets the terminal > (or the emulator) into 'Application Cursor Key' and 'Application Keypad' > mode. Looking in xterm at the VT Options popup (with CONTROL-MB2) shows > this nicely. Binding the 'ansi-codes' function of Jove 4.9 (that's what > comes with 2.11BSD) to [O resolves the cursor issue. > > What I still don't understand is why jove comes with defaults which > don't work. It puts the cursor and keypad keys into application mode, > which makes perfect sense especially for the keypad, and than looks > for [[ rather [O. Probably to make retrocomputing more fun :). > > > Thanks and with best regards, Walter > _______________________________________________ > PUPS mailing list > PUPS at minnie.tuhs.org > https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups > From bqt at softjar.se Tue Jan 6 10:54:01 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 17:54:01 +0100 Subject: [pups] jove editor under 2.11BSD and cursor keys In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49638CA9.6010703@softjar.se> And most proper emacs (and clone) users don't use the arrow keys, but use ^P, ^N, ^F and ^B. So this particular problem don't show. :-) Jove is actually a pretty nice Emacs clone. I wonder if I should try to port it to RSX... Johnny robinb at ruffnready.co.uk wrote: > IIRC the version of Jove that is on 2.11 was put on by me back in the late 80s to replace an even earlier version and I used a VT220 at home as opposed to xterm or whatever on a sim. As a result I was quite happy with using the defaults for whatever was set up for the then available hardware as I used a real PDP with real DEC terminals :-) > > Cheers > > Robin > > PS: It may have been updated since then I can't really recall. > > W.F.J.Mueller at gsi.de wrote: >> Johnny Billquist wrote: >>> Walter F. Mueller wrote: >>>> .... >>>> I get whenever I hit one of the cursor keys the message >>>> >>>> [ESC O unbound] >>> ... >>> Please note the difference between "[" and "O"... :-) >>> >>> To give you a little more help: someone or something is changing your >>> terminal to have application cursor keys. >>> (And to point out what should be obvious now: your cursor keys can >>> actually send two different kind of codes, depending on a setup parameter.) >>> >>> Johnny >> Thanks Johnny, that was exactly the problem. jove sets the terminal >> (or the emulator) into 'Application Cursor Key' and 'Application Keypad' >> mode. Looking in xterm at the VT Options popup (with CONTROL-MB2) shows >> this nicely. Binding the 'ansi-codes' function of Jove 4.9 (that's what >> comes with 2.11BSD) to [O resolves the cursor issue. >> >> What I still don't understand is why jove comes with defaults which >> don't work. It puts the cursor and keypad keys into application mode, >> which makes perfect sense especially for the keypad, and than looks >> for [[ rather [O. Probably to make retrocomputing more fun :). >> >> >> Thanks and with best regards, Walter >> _______________________________________________ >> PUPS mailing list >> PUPS at minnie.tuhs.org >> https://minnie.tuhs.org/mailman/listinfo/pups >> > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 6 12:48:36 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 18:48:36 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PDP-8/e rack questions In-Reply-To: <18786.32164.759003.207822@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> from "Paul Koning" at Jan 5, 9 04:37:40 pm Message-ID: > One drive TU56... interesting, didn't know those existed. I've only > seen pictures of one drive TU55s, but clearly that's not what you have > (the unit selector switch gives it away). I have one (my only TU56). the front casting is the same as for a dual-drive one, with the trasnport and heads fitted in the left drive position. There;'s a metal plate with stud fixed to it placed over the hols for the second set of motors/heads/controls with nuts and washers on the studs inside the unit to hold the blanking plate on. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 6 12:53:26 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 18:53:26 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PDP-8/e rack questions In-Reply-To: <49627B4E.3080606@update.uu.se> from "Pontus" at Jan 5, 9 10:27:42 pm Message-ID: > > Hello. > > I recently acquired a PDP-8/e with a TU56 and a PC04(I think) with > reader only. I've also gotten a DEC rack, but only one set of rails I thinkl that makes it a PR04. [..] > > What does the rails for a TU56 look like? I could not find any holes on > the sides, are they simply screwed in place with the holes behind the > flip-front? I think so (although it wouldn't be a bad idea to put a coule of bits of aluminium angle from front to back under the TU56 to support the chassis). There's no need to have the TU56 pull out, you see. You can get to the flip-chip boards from the back and the front panel/transport hinges down for access. > My TU56: http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/slask/pdp8/tu56.jpg > > And what does the rails for a PC04 look like? I found this picture over > at Mikes great corestore site: http://www.corestore.org/8i-2.jpg, which > shows part of it. Now those are a little strage. They're quite short, not much deeper than the PC04 chassis. The rails are in 3 secions (as normal), one screws to the side of the PC04 chassis,. then the normal 'middle section' that slides over the rail o nthe PC04 and into the rail on the cabinet, and finally the cabinet-mounted part. That one has a large plate and the front end with a flange to fix to the front rail of the rack (screws in from the front) and also screws from the inside into the holes on the rear flange of said front rail in a real DEC rack. Finally there's a tie bar that's crewed between the rear ends of the cabinet-mounted secions, just behind the PC04 chassis. The thing is theese rails mount only tor the front upreights, nothing goes the full depth of the rack. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 6 13:08:57 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 19:08:57 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Free Calculators In-Reply-To: <0KD100DC0EN4XY90@msgmmp-1.gci.net> from "Grant Stockly" at Jan 5, 9 09:42:33 pm Message-ID: > I also have a HP-35 with manual, purchase receipt, hard case, and > power supply. It doesn't work with the power supply as is, but I > don't know if the power supply works. Available for shipping costs. _Any_ LED-display HP calculator (and for that matter early LCD models, the HP71 and earlier) are _always_ worth something, no matter what the condition is (OK, not if they'rve been run over by a steam roller ;-)). There are plenty of people who collect and repair such machines and can use them for spare parts, etc. If you want to have a go are repairing the HP35, I can tell you what the testpoints are and what you should see at each one. -tony From marvin at west.net Tue Jan 6 13:27:01 2009 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 11:27:01 -0800 Subject: MicroAngelo Board Message-ID: <4963B085.C60B89AE@west.net> I just put up another MicroAngelo S-100 board on the VCGM. Sorry for the additional "sale" post, but a number of people here were looking for one that might not check VCGM regularly. http://marketplace.vintage-computer.com/ From coredump at gifford.co.uk Tue Jan 6 14:14:03 2009 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 20:14:03 +0000 Subject: Z80 instruction fetch mechanism In-Reply-To: <495FA026.1040203@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <495E7961.7030005@gmail.com> <495EE500.4030201@pacbell.net> <495EEA34.4030606@pacbell.net> <495F7A4F.5010901@gifford.co.uk> <495FA026.1040203@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4963BB8B.8020802@gifford.co.uk> bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > John Honniball wrote: >> Yes, that is correct. I have both versions! The original was called >> "Programming the Z80" and was sold by Sybex along with "Programming >> the 6502" and "Programming the 6809". > > And programming the Z8000 ... Thank you for reminding me about that one! I found a copy, and it arrived in the post this morning. Now that I've seen the cover, I recall that a friend had one in about 1985, to build a Z8000 machine for his final-year university project. -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From toby at coreware.co.uk Tue Jan 6 14:19:27 2009 From: toby at coreware.co.uk (Tobias Russell) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 20:19:27 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/05 returns to life Message-ID: <1231273167.6447.87.camel@spasmo> I managed to coax my PDP-11/05 back into life today and ran a few simple programs on it successfully. As a result a few questions for the experts out there: 1. To get it up and running I had to replace its two fans both of which had failed which I did by scavenging another 11/05 chassis I have. Does anyone have any tips on reviving failed fans? Both spin freely by hand but when powered one hums heavily and the other reluctantly and somewhat noisily spins up (if kick started with a screwdriver). If recovery is impossible can anyone suggest suitable replacements? The current ones are labelled Super-Boxers 2. Is there a chasing lights program I can run on the 11/05? Would be nice to see it visibly doing something 3. At the moment the machine has 16KW of core (2 x 8KW planes). This together with the CPU fills all but the last slot on the Unibus (its a 5inch box so only 9 slots). I'd like to fit a DL11 so that I have some serial comms and ideally an RX11 as well so I can hook up my RX01 drives and boot RT-11. Can I make use of the 9th slot or does this have a special purpose? There is a lot of wire wrap going to slot 9 so I'm guessing its not suitable. 4. What versions of RT-11 is suitable for an 11/05 and what is the minimum memory to run it? Thanks, Toby -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Jan 6 14:50:04 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 20:50:04 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/05 returns to life In-Reply-To: <1231273167.6447.87.camel@spasmo> References: <1231273167.6447.87.camel@spasmo> Message-ID: <4963C3FC.4000004@philpem.me.uk> Tobias Russell wrote: > Does anyone have any tips on reviving failed fans? Both spin freely by > hand but when powered one hums heavily and the other reluctantly and > somewhat noisily spins up (if kick started with a screwdriver). If > recovery is impossible can anyone suggest suitable replacements? The > current ones are labelled Super-Boxers I'd have thought a standard fan of the same size would have been a suitable replacement. I've more or less standardised on the Papst aluminium-impeller fans, on the basis that they're built like the proverbial brick outhouse. Expensive, but they tend to outlast cheap imported cooling fans at least 2:1. If you really want to resurrect the fans you've got, you could try removing the label and putting a drop of 3-in-1 oil on the bearing. Don't expect it to be anything other than a temporary fix, though. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Tue Jan 6 14:55:58 2009 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 21:55:58 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/05 returns to life In-Reply-To: <1231273167.6447.87.camel@spasmo> References: <1231273167.6447.87.camel@spasmo> Message-ID: > From: toby at coreware.co.uk > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 20:19:27 +0000 > Subject: PDP-11/05 returns to life > > I managed to coax my PDP-11/05 back into life today and ran a few > simple programs on it successfully. Well done! > As a result a few questions for the experts out there: > > 1. To get it up and running I had to replace its two fans both of which > had failed which I did by scavenging another 11/05 chassis I have. > > Does anyone have any tips on reviving failed fans? Both spin freely by > hand but when powered one hums heavily and the other reluctantly and > somewhat noisily spins up (if kick started with a screwdriver). If > recovery is impossible can anyone suggest suitable replacements? The > current ones are labelled Super-Boxers My 11/05 is not near me, so I can't check. But AFAIK, they are standard 110V fans, used in almost all UNIBUS PDP-11's. Exception is the 11/44 which used weird fans, I seem to remember 35V - 75 Hz (!) > 2. Is there a chasing lights program I can run on the 11/05? Would be > nice to see it visibly doing something Search the net. There is a small program (estimate 7 words). It uses the RESET instruction (is that 000005?) ... not nice if you connect an RX01 or RX02 to the machine as on every RESET (INIT) the heads clunk! > 3. At the moment the machine has 16KW of core (2 x 8KW planes). This > together with the CPU fills all but the last slot on the Unibus (its a > 5inch box so only 9 slots). I'd like to fit a DL11 so that I have some > serial comms and ideally an RX11 as well so I can hook up my RX01 drives > and boot RT-11. Can I make use of the 9th slot or does this have a > special purpose? There is a lot of wire wrap going to slot 9 so I'm > guessing its not suitable. That depends on the backplane! Check my website (www.pdp-11.nl) in the PDP-11/05 folder, the link is called "backplanes". Direct access: www.pdp-11.nl/pdp11-05/cpu/backplanes.html > 4. What versions of RT-11 is suitable for an 11/05 and what is the > minimum memory to run it? My guess: any version, but XM will not fit (I think), so it's SJ or FB. I will not go into legal issues ... > Thanks, > Toby - Henk. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 6 15:09:08 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 21:09:08 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PDP-11/05 returns to life In-Reply-To: <1231273167.6447.87.camel@spasmo> from "Tobias Russell" at Jan 6, 9 08:19:27 pm Message-ID: > > I managed to coax my PDP-11/05 back into life today and ran a few simple > programs on it successfully. > > As a result a few questions for the experts out there: > > 1. To get it up and running I had to replace its two fans both of which > had failed which I did by scavenging another 11/05 chassis I have. > > Does anyone have any tips on reviving failed fans? Both spin freely by Hmmm... Normally they suffer from bad bearings, although I don't think this is the problem with yours. Most fans can be dismantled. I've come across 3 main types of assembly : A cap in the centre of the rotor, on the opposite sde to the label, retained by a circlip. Remove this, then take out any felt pads/waskers and remove the small circlip from thend of the (fixed) spindle. The rotor/blades then lifts off. A similar cap in the middle under the label. Often this cap is flexible plastic and is retained by the label. After removing it, there's thee circlip as above 2 screws under the lable. In this case, free the wiring/tag block first. Then remove the screws and lift the hosing off the motor/blades. On the top of the motor, you'll see a sirclip. Remove this, then lift the stator out. In all cases make sure you know where all the washers go. Some are special types (I've seen bonded fiber/metal washers with flats on the centre hole, for example). > hand but when powered one hums heavily and the other reluctantly and > somewhat noisily spins up (if kick started with a screwdriver). If This sounds, alas, like winding problems. I've never tried to rewind one.... > recovery is impossible can anyone suggest suitable replacements? The > current ones are labelled Super-Boxers IIRC, the 11/05 fans are pretty standard (unlike the 35V 70Hz fans used in te 11/44...) so you can probably get something new from a good electronics shop. The important thigns are the physcial size and the voltage rating -- IIRC you need a 115V AC fan here (even in Europe, you use 115V fans, they're run off the primary of the mains transformer acting as an autotransformer. [...] > 3. At the moment the machine has 16KW of core (2 x 8KW planes). This > together with the CPU fills all but the last slot on the Unibus (its a > 5inch box so only 9 slots). I'd like to fit a DL11 so that I have some > serial comms and ideally an RX11 as well so I can hook up my RX01 drives You have a console serial port built into the CPU board set. AFAIK it's current loop only (which is a bit of a pain), it's wired to the 40 pin Berg header on the back of the cabinet. > and boot RT-11. Can I make use of the 9th slot or does this have a > special purpose? There is a lot of wire wrap going to slot 9 so I'm > guessing its not suitable. AFAIK the 9th slot is just a standard SPC slot and could take either a DL11 or an RX11. Of course you can't put both in at the same time. What you can't do is take out one of the memory board sets and use those slots for peripherals. The wiring there is totally different. There was a backplane which took the CPU, one memory board set and, IIRC, 4 SPC boards. But that's not the backplane you have. -tony From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Tue Jan 6 15:31:38 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 16:31:38 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/05 returns to life References: <1231273167.6447.87.camel@spasmo> Message-ID: <18787.52666.361874.790456@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> >>>>> "Henk" == Henk Gooijen writes: >> 2. Is there a chasing lights program I can run on the 11/05? Would >> be nice to see it visibly doing something Henk> Search the net. There is a small program (estimate 7 words). It Henk> uses the RESET instruction (is that 000005?) ... not nice if Henk> you connect an RX01 or RX02 to the machine as on every RESET Henk> (INIT) the heads clunk! That's a bit ugly... A cleaner one is the RSTS null job. It relies on the fact that a number of PDP-11s -- including the 11/05 as far as I remember -- will display R0 in the lights during a WAIT instruction. RT11 won't do, that uses the status register so you need a machine that has it and that displays it. I forgot what RSX does. Not sure you could run that on an -05 anyway. Sufficiently old RT11s should work on that machine. So would RSTS V4A, if you can find an RK05 or RF11 or RP03 disk drive. :-) RSTS null job looks like this: ; THE SIMPLE NULL JOB 10$: MOV R2,R1 ;RELOAD THE WAIT COUNTER 20$: WAIT ;DISPLAY THE LIGHTS (R0) A WHILE SOB R1,20$ ;KEEP WAITING ROL R0 ;ELSE SHIFT PATTERN 1 PLACE LEFT BR 10$ ; AND AROUND AGAIN... You need a periodic interrupt, of course, to break out of the WAIT. paul From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jan 6 15:37:45 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 16:37:45 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/05 returns to life In-Reply-To: <1231273167.6447.87.camel@spasmo> References: <1231273167.6447.87.camel@spasmo> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 3:19 PM, Tobias Russell wrote: > I managed to coax my PDP-11/05 back into life today and ran a few simple > programs on it successfully. > > As a result a few questions for the experts out there: > > 1. To get it up and running I had to replace its two fans both of which > had failed which I did by scavenging another 11/05 chassis I have. > > Does anyone have any tips on reviving failed fans? Just what you've done... clean and lube (WD-40 is *not* lubricant!) If they really won't spin and they are oddball fans, you might need exact replacements (ISTR the 11/40 or 11/45 has that problem), but if you find a modern fan that's the same size and voltage, you are probably OK. > ... if recovery is impossible can anyone suggest suitable replacements? The > current ones are labelled Super-Boxers I think you might still be able to get fans like that, but I haven't tried in at least 5 years. > 2. Is there a chasing lights program I can run on the 11/05? Would be > nice to see it visibly doing something From: Toggle in the following program and start at 001000. Note that the RUN light will go out! Location Contents Opcode Comment 001000 012700 mov #1,r0 Load 1 into R0 001002 000001 001004 006100 rol r0 Rotate R0 left 001006 000005 reset Initialise bus (70ms) 001010 000775 br .-4 Loop back to 'rol r0' I do not know if this will work on an 11/05 because of the 'reset' instruction, but it's a start. You could replace the reset instruction with an inner loop on r1 without too much difficulty if this won't work on your machine. > 3. At the moment the machine has 16KW of core (2 x 8KW planes). This > together with the CPU fills all but the last slot on the Unibus (its a > 5inch box so only 9 slots). I'd like to fit a DL11 so that I have some > serial comms and ideally an RX11 as well so I can hook up my RX01 drives > and boot RT-11. Can I make use of the 9th slot or does this have a > special purpose? There is a lot of wire wrap going to slot 9 so I'm > guessing its not suitable. My memory is that you can use the 9th slot for an SPC (small peripheral controller), but check the 11/05 handbook to be certain. IIRC, The RX11 and DL11 do not need NPR (but the RX211 might), but look those up in a mid-1970s handbook to be certain. > 4. What versions of RT-11 is suitable for an 11/05 and what is the > minimum memory to run it? I would think that RT-11 v4.0 would work nicely on an 11/05. I'm pretty sure even the newer stuff will work, but since you don't care about MSCP support or other modern niceties, it may not be a big win for you. Games and such, at least the ones I know of, should run on V4 and V5, as long as you have enough core for the app itself. Don't expect to run ADVENT without a full boat of memory, but there are plenty of smaller apps out there. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 6 15:51:23 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 16:51:23 -0500 Subject: [pups] jove editor under 2.11BSD and cursor keys In-Reply-To: <49638CA9.6010703@softjar.se> References: <49638CA9.6010703@softjar.se> Message-ID: On Jan 6, 2009, at 11:54 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > And most proper emacs (and clone) users don't use the arrow keys, > but use ^P, ^N, ^F and ^B. So this particular problem don't show. :-) > > Jove is actually a pretty nice Emacs clone. I wonder if I should > try to port it to RSX... YES!! :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Jan 6 15:52:55 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 15:52:55 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/05 returns to life In-Reply-To: References: <1231273167.6447.87.camel@spasmo> Message-ID: <4963D2B7.108@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: >> ... if recovery is impossible can anyone suggest suitable replacements? The >> current ones are labelled Super-Boxers > > I think you might still be able to get fans like that, but I haven't > tried in at least 5 years. Sadly I gave away a whole box full just over a year ago. Most of them were Pabst all-metal ones, and those things are awesome - very quiet and built like tanks. I think there were a couple of Super-Boxers in there too, and they used plastic blade assemblies are were a lot louder in operation. cheers Jules From toby at coreware.co.uk Tue Jan 6 16:10:27 2009 From: toby at coreware.co.uk (Tobias Russell) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 22:10:27 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/05 returns to life In-Reply-To: References: <1231273167.6447.87.camel@spasmo> Message-ID: <1231279827.6447.97.camel@spasmo> Excellent so all this sounds encouraging. I've had a look at the Farnell website and there seems to be plenty of choice of 110V 12cm fans so buying some replacements shouldn't be a problem. With the onboard console, how hard is it to build a device to convert current loop into RS232 levels? It appears I have a PDP-11/05-JA backplane so I should be able to get my RX11 into slot 1. The next challenge will be to get an RX01 disk built with RT11 on it. I'm planning on making the image with SIMH and then use vtserver to copy the image onto the RX01 (connected to my 11/73). Does this sound like a sane approach? Thanks, Toby On Tue, 2009-01-06 at 16:37 -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 3:19 PM, Tobias Russell wrote: > > I managed to coax my PDP-11/05 back into life today and ran a few simple > > programs on it successfully. > > > > As a result a few questions for the experts out there: > > > > 1. To get it up and running I had to replace its two fans both of which > > had failed which I did by scavenging another 11/05 chassis I have. > > > > Does anyone have any tips on reviving failed fans? > > Just what you've done... clean and lube (WD-40 is *not* lubricant!) > If they really won't spin and they are oddball fans, you might need > exact replacements (ISTR the 11/40 or 11/45 has that problem), but if > you find a modern fan that's the same size and voltage, you are > probably OK. > > > > ... if recovery is impossible can anyone suggest suitable replacements? The > > current ones are labelled Super-Boxers > > I think you might still be able to get fans like that, but I haven't > tried in at least 5 years. > > > 2. Is there a chasing lights program I can run on the 11/05? Would be > > nice to see it visibly doing something > > From: > > Toggle in the following program and start at 001000. Note that the RUN > light will go out! > > Location Contents Opcode Comment > 001000 012700 mov #1,r0 Load 1 into R0 > 001002 000001 > 001004 006100 rol r0 Rotate R0 left > 001006 000005 reset Initialise bus (70ms) > 001010 000775 br .-4 Loop back to 'rol r0' > > I do not know if this will work on an 11/05 because of the 'reset' > instruction, but it's a start. You could replace the reset > instruction with an inner loop on r1 without too much difficulty if > this won't work on your machine. > > > 3. At the moment the machine has 16KW of core (2 x 8KW planes). This > > together with the CPU fills all but the last slot on the Unibus (its a > > 5inch box so only 9 slots). I'd like to fit a DL11 so that I have some > > serial comms and ideally an RX11 as well so I can hook up my RX01 drives > > and boot RT-11. Can I make use of the 9th slot or does this have a > > special purpose? There is a lot of wire wrap going to slot 9 so I'm > > guessing its not suitable. > > My memory is that you can use the 9th slot for an SPC (small > peripheral controller), but check the 11/05 handbook to be certain. > IIRC, The RX11 and DL11 do not need NPR (but the RX211 might), but > look those up in a mid-1970s handbook to be certain. > > > 4. What versions of RT-11 is suitable for an 11/05 and what is the > > minimum memory to run it? > > I would think that RT-11 v4.0 would work nicely on an 11/05. I'm > pretty sure even the newer stuff will work, but since you don't care > about MSCP support or other modern niceties, it may not be a big win > for you. Games and such, at least the ones I know of, should run on > V4 and V5, as long as you have enough core for the app itself. Don't > expect to run ADVENT without a full boat of memory, but there are > plenty of smaller apps out there. > > -ethan > -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Jan 6 16:17:34 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 14:17:34 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/05 returns to life In-Reply-To: <1231279827.6447.97.camel@spasmo> References: <1231273167.6447.87.camel@spasmo> <1231279827.6447.97.camel@spasmo> Message-ID: If you google the terms, I recall a school website that had a sample circuit for converting between RS232 and 20mA. There are also gadgets you can buy to do it - again, Google is your friend. -- Ian -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tobias Russell Sent: Tuesday, January 06, 2009 2:10 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: PDP-11/05 returns to life Excellent so all this sounds encouraging. I've had a look at the Farnell website and there seems to be plenty of choice of 110V 12cm fans so buying some replacements shouldn't be a problem. With the onboard console, how hard is it to build a device to convert current loop into RS232 levels? It appears I have a PDP-11/05-JA backplane so I should be able to get my RX11 into slot 1. The next challenge will be to get an RX01 disk built with RT11 on it. I'm planning on making the image with SIMH and then use vtserver to copy the image onto the RX01 (connected to my 11/73). Does this sound like a sane approach? Thanks, Toby On Tue, 2009-01-06 at 16:37 -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 3:19 PM, Tobias Russell wrote: > > I managed to coax my PDP-11/05 back into life today and ran a few simple > > programs on it successfully. > > > > As a result a few questions for the experts out there: > > > > 1. To get it up and running I had to replace its two fans both of which > > had failed which I did by scavenging another 11/05 chassis I have. > > > > Does anyone have any tips on reviving failed fans? > > Just what you've done... clean and lube (WD-40 is *not* lubricant!) > If they really won't spin and they are oddball fans, you might need > exact replacements (ISTR the 11/40 or 11/45 has that problem), but if > you find a modern fan that's the same size and voltage, you are > probably OK. > > > > ... if recovery is impossible can anyone suggest suitable replacements? The > > current ones are labelled Super-Boxers > > I think you might still be able to get fans like that, but I haven't > tried in at least 5 years. > > > 2. Is there a chasing lights program I can run on the 11/05? Would be > > nice to see it visibly doing something > > From: > > Toggle in the following program and start at 001000. Note that the RUN > light will go out! > > Location Contents Opcode Comment > 001000 012700 mov #1,r0 Load 1 into R0 > 001002 000001 > 001004 006100 rol r0 Rotate R0 left > 001006 000005 reset Initialise bus (70ms) > 001010 000775 br .-4 Loop back to 'rol r0' > > I do not know if this will work on an 11/05 because of the 'reset' > instruction, but it's a start. You could replace the reset > instruction with an inner loop on r1 without too much difficulty if > this won't work on your machine. > > > 3. At the moment the machine has 16KW of core (2 x 8KW planes). This > > together with the CPU fills all but the last slot on the Unibus (its a > > 5inch box so only 9 slots). I'd like to fit a DL11 so that I have some > > serial comms and ideally an RX11 as well so I can hook up my RX01 drives > > and boot RT-11. Can I make use of the 9th slot or does this have a > > special purpose? There is a lot of wire wrap going to slot 9 so I'm > > guessing its not suitable. > > My memory is that you can use the 9th slot for an SPC (small > peripheral controller), but check the 11/05 handbook to be certain. > IIRC, The RX11 and DL11 do not need NPR (but the RX211 might), but > look those up in a mid-1970s handbook to be certain. > > > 4. What versions of RT-11 is suitable for an 11/05 and what is the > > minimum memory to run it? > > I would think that RT-11 v4.0 would work nicely on an 11/05. I'm > pretty sure even the newer stuff will work, but since you don't care > about MSCP support or other modern niceties, it may not be a big win > for you. Games and such, at least the ones I know of, should run on > V4 and V5, as long as you have enough core for the app itself. Don't > expect to run ADVENT without a full boat of memory, but there are > plenty of smaller apps out there. > > -ethan > -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Jan 6 16:27:03 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 22:27:03 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/05 returns to life In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4963DAB7.8010205@dunnington.plus.com> On 06/01/2009 21:09, Tony Duell wrote: > On 06/01/2009 20:19, Tobias Russell wrote: >> I managed to coax my PDP-11/05 back into life today and ran a few simple >> programs on it successfully. >> >> As a result a few questions for the experts out there: >> >> 1. To get it up and running I had to replace its two fans both of which >> had failed which I did by scavenging another 11/05 chassis I have. >> >> Does anyone have any tips on reviving failed fans? Both spin freely by > > Hmmm... Normally they suffer from bad bearings, although I don't think > this is the problem with yours. I agree with Tony, if they spin by hand, you don't have much of a bearing/lubrication problem. If they do need lubrication, hot grease is the stuff to soak the bearings in. > This sounds, alas, like winding problems. I've never tried to rewind one.... > >> recovery is impossible can anyone suggest suitable replacements? The >> current ones are labelled Super-Boxers I'm 99.99% certain they're 110V AC fans -- that's what almost all PDP-11 and PDP-8 fans are. Not always easy to get over here, but they do exist (Farnell list a couple but not the right size, I think). In fact, I think I may have one spare if you get stuck. >> 2. Is there a chasing lights program I can run on the 11/05? Would be >> nice to see it visibly doing something > You have a console serial port built into the CPU board set. AFAIK it's > current loop only (which is a bit of a pain), it's wired to the 40 pin > Berg header on the back of the cabinet. Yes, I think it's basically a KL11 equivalent. DEC used to make a thing called a DLV11-KB, which is a 20mA-to-RS232 converter in small black box about 70mm wide x 130mm long by 22mm thick, on a flange about 115mm wide. It has a 10-way Berg on one end and the usual AMP 8-way flat Mate-N-Lok on the other; it's actually meant to adapt a DLV11 (RS232 only) to current loop but AFAIK it'll work the other way round, so to speak. Of course it's fairly simple to roll your own. The on-board SLU in the KD11-B can be disabled by installing a jumper at W1. W1 is on the M7261 board (control logic and microprogram board) between E69 and C51 (about halfway up the board, roughly in line with edge connector DH1/DH2). That was sometimes done in order to install a DL11-W (SLU + LTC clock) or some other SLU that did have EIA/RS232 capability. >> and boot RT-11. Can I make use of the 9th slot or does this have a >> special purpose? There is a lot of wire wrap going to slot 9 so I'm >> guessing its not suitable. Dunno about the 9th slot but you should be able to run RT-11 V4 no problem in 16KW, and most versions of V5 (though not the XM monitor, and the FB might be too big to be useful). I should have the 11/05 print set and some manuals somewhere. Maybe I need to dig it out of storage. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Jan 6 16:27:01 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 22:27:01 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/05 returns to life In-Reply-To: <18787.52666.361874.790456@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> References: <1231273167.6447.87.camel@spasmo> <18787.52666.361874.790456@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> Message-ID: <4963DAB5.90809@dunnington.plus.com> On 06/01/2009 21:31, Paul Koning wrote: >>>>>> "Henk" == Henk Gooijen writes: > > >> 2. Is there a chasing lights program I can run on the 11/05? Would > >> be nice to see it visibly doing something > > Henk> Search the net. There is a small program (estimate 7 words). It > Henk> uses the RESET instruction (is that 000005?) ... not nice if > Henk> you connect an RX01 or RX02 to the machine as on every RESET > Henk> (INIT) the heads clunk! > > That's a bit ugly... > > A cleaner one is the RSTS null job. > You need a periodic interrupt, of course, to break out of the WAIT. But you probably don't have one on a basic 11/05, which is why the commonly-used one is the one Henk and Ethan mentioned, with the RESET instruction. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From chd_1 at nktelco.net Tue Jan 6 17:35:28 2009 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H Dickman) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 18:35:28 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/e rack questions In-Reply-To: References: <49627B4E.3080606@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <4963EAC0.1090408@nktelco.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > Every rack-mounted PDP-8/e I've seen has had slides like this. > These slides were made by ChassisTrak. > > -Dave > Actually General Devices in Indianapolis, Indiana, USA and they are still around. www.gendevco.com -chuck From chd_1 at nktelco.net Tue Jan 6 19:01:45 2009 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H Dickman) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 20:01:45 -0500 Subject: [pups] jove editor under 2.11BSD and cursor keys In-Reply-To: <49638CA9.6010703@softjar.se> References: <49638CA9.6010703@softjar.se> Message-ID: <4963FEF9.5080300@nktelco.net> Johnny Billquist wrote: > And most proper emacs (and clone) users don't use the arrow keys, but > use ^P, ^N, ^F and ^B. So this particular problem don't show. :-) > I have only used vi with 2.11bsd, but have learned to not use the arrows keys or pg up, pg dn. They work in insert mode as long as you press and release slowly... Once autorepeat kicks in, one of the ESC eventually causes a transition to normal mode and you end up inserting a bunch of crap into the file. I seem to recall lots of ^B. An unfortunate effect of using the ESC for both a mode change and a key prefix. -chuck From bob at jfcl.com Tue Jan 6 19:27:01 2009 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 17:27:01 -0800 Subject: KD-11F (11/03) in a BA11-N?? Message-ID: <005201c97067$0a841320$1f8c3960$@com> I have a BA11-N chassis that says "11/03-L" on the front, and the backplane in it is an H9273-A. I want to get this to work with a 11/03 CPU (a real KD11-F M7264) but there's something strange about this backplane that I can't figure out. The boards I'm using are the M7264, an M8044 (MSV11-D), M8017 (DLV11-E) and a BDV11. In a small, 4 slot 11/03 chassis (a BA11-S, I think) all these boards work fine together, however in the BA-11N there's no joy. It powers up, but the processor appears to halt immediately - it never executes the BDV11 bootstrap. But, if I replace the 11/03 CPU in the BA11-N with a 11/23 CPU card, then everything is fine. So the 11/03 works fine in the BA11-S but not in the BA11-N, and the 11/23 works fine in the BA11-N. It seems fairly likely that there's some kind 16/18/22 bit addressing issue here, but what's the fix? It must have been possible to use the KD11-F in the BA11-N, given the 11/03-L designation. FWIW, the backplane has not been field upgraded with wire wrap to add the extra address bits. In fact, the H9273-A doesn't even have wire wrap pins at all - the pins are all cut off right at PCB level. Is this the standard backplane for a 11/03-L system? I'm wondering if at some time maybe the whole backplane was replaced with a newer one. Thanks, Bob P.S. Yes, I do know that BA11-S backplane is QQ/QQ where as the H9273 is QQ/CD. I don't think that's the problem - there's nothing in the CD slots below the 11/03 card. From db at db.net Tue Jan 6 20:03:23 2009 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 21:03:23 -0500 Subject: Lifting heavy rack-mount gear (was Re: PDP-8/e rack questions) In-Reply-To: <95838e090901060307ia16512dt69ff5866f7d14425@mail.gmail.com> References: <95838e090901060307ia16512dt69ff5866f7d14425@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090107020323.GA9735@night.db.net> On Tue, Jan 06, 2009 at 12:07:36PM +0100, Steve Maddison wrote: > 2009/1/6 Dave McGuire : > > On Jan 5, 2009, at 5:37 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: ... > > I did mine alone as well. It is definitely a very heavy machine. I had > > back pains for days after doing that. > > > > Probably hard to justify the cost for occasional use, but I'd really > like to get one of these before I do myself any permanent damage: I knew someone online (IRC) who had a finger amputated because a rack dropped on it. As a pianist, this squicked me quite a bit. I would highly recommend caution to anyone moving any heavy rack, don't be stupid. -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Jan 6 20:34:53 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 20:34:53 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/05 returns to life In-Reply-To: References: <1231273167.6447.87.camel@spasmo> Message-ID: <496414CD.8000301@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 3:19 PM, Tobias Russell wrote: > (WD-40 is *not* lubricant!) Agreed - it's depressing that their own website (www.wd40.com) claims "lubricates just about anything". I suppose that's true - briefly - then you'd be faced with stripping everything down, cleaning it, and lubricating it with something that *is* actually a lubricant. Marketing departments - bah! :-( From tiggerlasv at aim.com Tue Jan 6 20:59:08 2009 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 21:59:08 -0500 Subject: KD-11F (11/03) in a BA11-N?? Message-ID: <8CB3E8B0B4377F8-2A4-19BD@MBLK-M29.sysops.aol.com> Check out the BA11-N user guide, starting at chapter 2. Make sure the appropriate jumpers are installed on the backplane, and on the control panel circuit board. They may affect operation of the KD11 modules. The BA11-N user guide can be found here: http://vt100.net/mirror/antonio/ba11nug1.pdf From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Jan 6 21:05:04 2009 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 22:05:04 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/05 returns to life In-Reply-To: <1231279827.6447.97.camel@spasmo> References: <1231273167.6447.87.camel@spasmo> <1231279827.6447.97.camel@spasmo> Message-ID: <49641BE0.8020401@compsys.to> >Tobias Russell wrote: >The next challenge will be to get an RX01 disk built >with RT11 on it. I'm planning on making the image with SIMH and then use >vtserver to copy the image onto the RX01 (connected to my 11/73). Does >this sound like a sane approach? > > Jerome Fine replies: First, you can use an RX02 drive to produce bootable RX01 bootable floppy media, but there are some details which are unusual. Ask if that ability could be useful. Second, there are probably PC compatible RX01 drives which would allow SIMH to directly produce an RX01 bootable floppy media. Since I have no experience with 8" floppy drives on a PC, I can't help at all. An RX02 floppy drive on a PC is also possible as far as I have heard, but a Catweasal controller is needed, as far as I know. Again, I don't know any of the details and it is possible that only Ersatz-11 supports an RX02 floppy on a PC. As for which version of RT-11, RT11XM can't be run on a PDP-11/05 since there is no memory management hardware, aside from the requirement that there be at least 32 KWords or 64 KBytes of physical memory. V04.00 is a reasonable version of RT-11 to run on a PDP-11/05. I would suggest that you use RT11FB if you are doing anything extensive since RT11SJ performs a RESET after each command - which really slows things when a floppy is used. V05.03 with RT11FB is a very nice version of RT-11, but uses a bit more memory then V04.00 which may be a problem with only 16 KWords. However, the extra RT-11 features are probably worth the extra memory. You can run all of those versions of RT-11 under SIMH and check for yourself which seems most suitable. Since both the RT11SJ and RT11FB monitors use 56 KBytes under SIMH (rather than 64 KBytes since the top 8 KBytes are reserved for the IOPAGE registers), just subtract 24 KBytes of memory from what the background job has available and you will know what to expect on the PDP-11/05. Under V05.03 of RT-11, the command is: SHOW MEMORY (or just SH M) If you have any other RT-11 questions, just ask, especially to help with setting up a boot RX01 floppy media. A V05.03 distribution of RT-11 is available for download to be run under SIMH. at: http://www.classiccmp.org/PDP-11/RT-11/dists/ Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jan 6 23:03:31 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 00:03:31 -0500 Subject: Lifting heavy rack-mount gear (was Re: PDP-8/e rack questions) In-Reply-To: <20090107020323.GA9735@night.db.net> References: <95838e090901060307ia16512dt69ff5866f7d14425@mail.gmail.com> <20090107020323.GA9735@night.db.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 9:03 PM, Diane Bruce wrote: > I knew someone online (IRC) who had a finger amputated because a rack > dropped on it. As a pianist, this squicked me quite a bit. !!! I play piano, too, so I completely understand. > I would highly recommend caution to anyone moving any heavy rack, don't > be stupid. When I was younger (in high school), I had a couple of minor incidents moving big DEC equipment - nothing requiring more than first aid, but enough to keep me cautious. Now that I'm substantially older, I'm eyeing that lift as an essential tool - most of my close calls have come from hefting large things into racks - RK05s, RA81s, etc., though I nearly crushed myself extracting an 11/750 from a Chevy Astro Van once - fortunately for me, it wedged in the door opening and did not slip more than a few inches, but it could have been much less pleasant. IIRC, Sridar has a story or two that, fortunately, I can't top. -ethan From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Jan 6 23:32:12 2009 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 21:32:12 -0800 Subject: Lifting heavy rack-mount gear (was Re: PDP-8/e rack questions) In-Reply-To: References: <95838e090901060307ia16512dt69ff5866f7d14425@mail.gmail.com> <20090107020323.GA9735@night.db.net> Message-ID: <17C06C01-E98B-4D33-9FA4-D435F4B578A1@shiresoft.com> On Jan 6, 2009, at 9:03 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> I would highly recommend caution to anyone moving any heavy rack, >> don't >> be stupid. > > When I was younger (in high school), I had a couple of minor incidents > moving big DEC equipment - nothing requiring more than first aid, but > enough to keep me cautious. Now that I'm substantially older, I'm > eyeing that lift as an essential tool - most of my close calls have > come from hefting large things into racks - RK05s, RA81s, etc., though > I nearly crushed myself extracting an 11/750 from a Chevy Astro Van > once - fortunately for me, it wedged in the door opening and did not > slip more than a few inches, but it could have been much less > pleasant. Having dropped an 11/780 off the back of a truck, I completely understand. I've had an equipment lift (that I picked up second hand) for a number of years now. Before I got it I was planning with exacting detail how I wanted stuff racked up and wouldn't re-rack stuff just because of the effort involved. Now it's almost too easy! :-) I'm also considering getting a 2nd lift. My current lift is of the counter weight variety (it has a 400lb cast iron weight on the back) which makes it "inconvenient" to move between locations (although I *have* done it). I consider the lift as one of my more necessary pieces of equipment (since I found out about J-bars, that is a close second - but only when I'm moving equipment). TTFN - Guy From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 6 23:39:23 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 00:39:23 -0500 Subject: Lifting heavy rack-mount gear (was Re: PDP-8/e rack questions) In-Reply-To: References: <95838e090901060307ia16512dt69ff5866f7d14425@mail.gmail.com> <20090107020323.GA9735@night.db.net> Message-ID: On Jan 7, 2009, at 12:03 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > IIRC, Sridar has a story or two that, fortunately, I can't top. Yeah, but most of Sridhar's stories involve his gear nearly crushing ME! ;) This is rather severely off-topic, as most of the machines described are pretty new, but I recently offloaded some very heavy gear from a truck onto my driveway by myself. I had no one upon whom to call for assistance, and I was under great time pressure. Here's the saga. (This is mostly a cut-and-paste from an email I sent to Pat Finnegan about a month ago, as this stuff came from his facility.) First came the StorageTek Timberwolf tape juke, being very large and weighing about 700lbs. That's pretty light, compared to the rest of the stuff. I wanted to unload it using the ramp, but the weight coming down the ramp was far more than I could handle myself. I used a ratchet strap hooked to the sides of the truck to lower it a notch at a time. In the end, I ran out of strap and it started rolling on its own, but it only went about eight inches before it was off the ramp...so all was well. I removed all the tape carriers beforehand in an effort to reduce the weight somewhat. I used pieces of wood as safety catches behind the wheels. http://www.neurotica.com/misc/TimberwolfUnload/PICT2103.JPG http://www.neurotica.com/misc/TimberwolfUnload/PICT2104.JPG http://www.neurotica.com/misc/TimberwolfUnload/PICT2105.JPG http://www.neurotica.com/misc/TimberwolfUnload/PICT2106.JPG http://www.neurotica.com/misc/TimberwolfUnload/PICT2107.JPG Next came the Sun Fire 6800s, about 1200lbs/ea...and fragile, expensive, and belonging to someone else. That's pressure. They were laying down on their backs...I pushed, with great difficulty, the rightmost machine off the end of the truck, "catching" it with a ratchet strap configured in a loop of a reasonable length secured to the top frame of the truck. http://www.neurotica.com/misc/SF6800Unload/PICT2109.JPG http://www.neurotica.com/misc/SF6800Unload/PICT2110.JPG http://www.neurotica.com/misc/SF6800Unload/PICT2111.JPG http://www.neurotica.com/misc/SF6800Unload/PICT2112.JPG I lowered it a ratchet notch at a time until the rear/bottom corner was on the driveway, then adjusted the angles a bit, then lowered it onto its wheels. The left machine was sitting across two pallets, and was far more difficult due to wood-on-wood friction with the truck's floor. I jacked the machine up one side at a time in order to remove all remaining rear rack protrusions, then tied the rearmost pallet to one of the between-the-garage-doors columns on my house. I then drove the truck forward, an inch or so at a time, running back every time to check on things, until the rearmost pallet was nearly off the truck. http://www.neurotica.com/misc/SF6800Unload/PICT2120.JPG I then lifted the bottom/rear of the rack up using a loop of ratchet strap in order to remove the pallet. http://www.neurotica.com/misc/SF6800Unload/PICT2121.JPG After that, I lowered it to the ground with a ratchet strap in the same manner as the first machine. The E10K was the last to come off the truck. It was still unbelievably heavy even after the removal of all hot-swappable components...about 900lbs empty. It came down the ramp a ratchet notch at a time in the same manner as the Timberwolf, but this time my friend Ed came by to help, despite being sick. Here he is striking a camped-up pose with the machine midway down the ramp: http://www.neurotica.com/misc/SF6800Unload/PICT2122.JPG So that was that, what a relief. That was a stressful few days, with the bill for the extra truck rental time climbing ever skyward...I was very worried that my new employer (it's their gear) would be pissed about the extra expense, but he was cool with it, seeing that I risked great bodily harm to move gear for the company on short notice. But it was fun. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From tiggerlasv at aim.com Wed Jan 7 00:36:47 2009 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 01:36:47 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/05 returns to life Message-ID: <8CB3EA972EDF248-82C-1BCA@WEBMAIL-MY23.sysops.aol.com> Tobias Russell wrote: > The next challenge will be to get an RX01 disk built > with RT11 on it. I'm planning on making the image with SIMH and then use > vtserver to copy the image onto the RX01 (connected to my 11/73). Does > this sound like a sane approach? I have a faster, albeit slightly convoluted method for getting information between the PC and the PDP. I created a standalone PC from old pieces/parts. This PC is a plain-old PC, with minimal memory, a small disk drive, a Teac FD55-GFR floppy, a generic SCSI controller, and an IDE <> CF adapter. The PC boots plain ol' DOS. I use a compact flash card to move SIMH images back & forth from my real PC to the DOS PC. (This saves ALOT of rebooting.) Using PUTR, I can make bootable RX50's and RX33's. Using John Wilson's ST.EXE (SCSI Tape utility), I can make bootable TK50 / TK70 images, merely by attaching a SCSI TK50 / TK70 to the SCSI controller. Although there are several steps involved in the process, it is infinitely faster than using VTserver, particularly when dealing with larger images. You could easily make a bootable RT11 disk on RX50 or RX33, boot your 11/73 with it, and make your RX01 images from there. That way, if you run into any problems, or want to make changes, you won't have to wait for VTserver to work it's magic. . . (Now, if ST.EXE would work with Exabyte 8mm drives, I'd really be a happy camper !) T From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Wed Jan 7 00:40:26 2009 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 07:40:26 +0100 Subject: Lifting heavy rack-mount gear (was Re: PDP-8/e rack questions) In-Reply-To: References: <95838e090901060307ia16512dt69ff5866f7d14425@mail.gmail.com> <20090107020323.GA9735@night.db.net> Message-ID: > From: mcguire at neurotica.com > Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 00:39:23 -0500 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > CC: > Subject: Re: Lifting heavy rack-mount gear (was Re: PDP-8/e rack questions) > > On Jan 7, 2009, at 12:03 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> IIRC, Sridar has a story or two that, fortunately, I can't top. > > Yeah, but most of Sridhar's stories involve his gear nearly > crushing ME! ;) > > This is rather severely off-topic, as most of the machines > described are pretty new, but I recently offloaded some very heavy > gear from a truck onto my driveway by myself ... snip very nice story with lots of heavy cool pictures :-) > But it was fun. :) > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL Those machines were *just* small enough to go through the opening (standing upright). I bet that you measured the height first! Unloading a truck can be quite a task with this stuff. For that reason I always rent a truck with a hydraulic tail (or what the proper name is for it). But when everythiong is unloaded, yes, the memories are fun. - Henk. From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Jan 7 01:18:58 2009 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 6 Jan 2009 23:18:58 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/05 returns to life In-Reply-To: <8CB3EA972EDF248-82C-1BCA@WEBMAIL-MY23.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CB3EA972EDF248-82C-1BCA@WEBMAIL-MY23.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90901062318v176b4e32s9037fd4435c04ffe@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jan 6, 2009 at 10:36 PM, wrote: > > (Now, if ST.EXE would work with Exabyte 8mm drives, > I'd really be a happy camper !) > I briefly tried to use ST.EXE a couple of times without much success. I ended up using a Linux box with an Adaptec 2940 to create 2.11BSD and RSTS/E 8mm install tapes from .TAP files with an Exabyte 8200 8mm drive. I forget exactly how I did that now. I think I started with the 2.11BSD maketape.c code and modified that to work with the Linux box I had setup at the time and use .TAP files as input instead of maketape.dat files. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Jan 7 01:31:12 2009 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 08:31:12 +0100 Subject: Lifting heavy rack-mount gear (was Re: PDP-8/e rack questions) In-Reply-To: References: <95838e090901060307ia16512dt69ff5866f7d14425@mail.gmail.com> <20090107020323.GA9735@night.db.net> Message-ID: <20090107073112.GA15450@Update.UU.SE> Nice pictures, they make me feel like a total amateur having "only" moved a 11/70 (two cabinets) and a Alphaserver(one cabinet). And in both cases used a truck with a lift. > between-the-garage-doors columns on my house. I then drove the truck > forward, an inch or so at a time, running back every time to check on > things, until the rearmost pallet was nearly off the truck. neat trick :) scary one too. > The E10K was the last to come off the truck. It was still > unbelievably heavy even after the removal of all hot-swappable I was not participating myself, but heard some scary stories from when the computer club moved a E10K into the server room. I allways giggle when I see the two very visible dents in the sill from the E10K wheels. Cheers, Pontus. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Jan 7 02:55:36 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 08:55:36 +0000 Subject: KD-11F (11/03) in a BA11-N?? In-Reply-To: <005201c97067$0a841320$1f8c3960$@com> References: <005201c97067$0a841320$1f8c3960$@com> Message-ID: <49646E08.1030904@dunnington.plus.com> On 07/01/2009 01:27, Bob Armstrong wrote: > I have a BA11-N chassis that says "11/03-L" on the front, and the > backplane in it is an H9273-A. I want to get this to work with a 11/03 CPU > (a real KD11-F M7264) but there's something strange about this backplane > that I can't figure out. > > The boards I'm using are the M7264, an M8044 (MSV11-D), M8017 (DLV11-E) > and a BDV11. In a small, 4 slot 11/03 chassis (a BA11-S, I think) No, that'll be a BA11-M, with a H9270 18-bit 4 x 4 serpentine backplane. BA11-S is a box with a H9276 9-slot 22-bit backplane, used for a PDP-11/23plus. > all these > boards work fine together, however in the BA-11N there's no joy. It powers > up, but the processor appears to halt immediately - it never executes the > BDV11 bootstrap. > > But, if I replace the 11/03 CPU in the BA11-N with a 11/23 CPU card, then > everything is fine. So the 11/03 works fine in the BA11-S but not in the > BA11-N, and the 11/23 works fine in the BA11-N. > > It seems fairly likely that there's some kind 16/18/22 bit addressing > issue here, but what's the fix? It must have been possible to use the > KD11-F in the BA11-N, given the 11/03-L designation. Not necessarily, the BA11-N was designed when the dual-height LSI-11/2 (M7270, KD11-H) was used, and then was also used for the 11/23 systems. The issue is not the number of address bits, which won't matter at all. It's that your H9273 backplane is set up for an 11/23 and won't have W2 and W3 inserted, but they need to be for a quad-height M7264 (and only for that board AFAIR, don't insert them if you use a quad-height KDF11-B). > FWIW, the backplane has not been field upgraded with wire wrap to add the > extra address bits. In fact, the H9273-A doesn't even have wire wrap pins > at all - the pins are all cut off right at PCB level. Is this the standard > backplane for a 11/03-L system? I'm wondering if at some time maybe the > whole backplane was replaced with a newer one. No, that's normal for almost all Q-bus backplanes, and you do have the normal backplane for a BA11-N. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Jan 7 05:38:05 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 11:38:05 +0000 Subject: Lifting heavy rack-mount gear (was Re: PDP-8/e rack questions) In-Reply-To: References: <95838e090901060307ia16512dt69ff5866f7d14425@mail.gmail.com> <20090107020323.GA9735@night.db.net> Message-ID: <1231328285.5820.60.camel@elric> On Wed, 2009-01-07 at 00:03 -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote: > When I was younger (in high school), I had a couple of minor incidents > moving big DEC equipment - nothing requiring more than first aid, but > enough to keep me cautious. Now that I'm substantially older, I'm > eyeing that lift as an essential tool - most of my close calls have When I was moving house, I went to load my PDP11/73 onto the van with all the drives racked up. It was a bit heavier than I expected, but it was just a case of rolling it up to the back of the van and then lifting it in as I tipped it backwards. Getting it up two steps at the back door of my new place wasn't as much fun. Oh, and let's not forget the Fujitsu Eagle which has a sticker on it saying "CAUTION: 70kg" - on the bottom! A few years ago I used to carry around 25kg bags of horse feed three at a time. I'm so unfit these days. I should ditch all this computer nonsense and go back to working on a farm... Gordon From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Jan 7 06:03:50 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 07:03:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: Source for SCART connectors in US? Message-ID: Can anyone help me find a supplier for SCART video connectors in the USA? Maplins in UK has them but wants almost $100.00 (!) flat fee for handling on international orders. Are there any UK vendors with their feet on this planet? In a pinch, is there a cctech reader overseas that wouldn't mind being a middleman? I don't want to pay $100.00 for the service, but wouldn't mind a few bucks/pounds for overhead :-). Steve -- From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Wed Jan 7 08:45:57 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 15:45:57 +0100 Subject: Source for SCART connectors in US? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: www.okaphone.nl A dutch based electronics firm who are shipping worldwide. The site is dutch but you can mail them they use paypal. mailto:info at okaphone.nl -Rik > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Steven Hirsch > Verzonden: woensdag 7 januari 2009 13:04 > Aan: Classic Computers Mailing List > Onderwerp: Source for SCART connectors in US? > > Can anyone help me find a supplier for SCART video connectors > in the USA? > Maplins in UK has them but wants almost $100.00 (!) flat fee > for handling on international orders. > > Are there any UK vendors with their feet on this planet? In > a pinch, is there a cctech reader overseas that wouldn't mind > being a middleman? I don't want to pay $100.00 for the > service, but wouldn't mind a few bucks/pounds for overhead :-). > > Steve > > > -- From emu at e-bbes.com Wed Jan 7 08:49:55 2009 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 07:49:55 -0700 Subject: Source for SCART connectors in US? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4964C113.1070000@e-bbes.com> Steven Hirsch wrote: > Can anyone help me find a supplier for SCART video connectors in the > USA? I'm actually glad I didn't have to deal with this crap here, but anyway ... > Maplins in UK has them but wants almost $100.00 (!) flat fee for > handling on international orders. Mouser and Futureelectronics have them for $1.95, but no stock. Did you try to get a lead time on them ? Another idea is, to get some of the converter boxes and desolder it if you need it fast. Check Newark for that, they have them in stock. And if you really desperate and can wait, I could get you one in Europe when I'm there again. Cheers From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Jan 7 08:51:21 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 08:51:21 -0600 Subject: Lifting heavy rack-mount gear (was Re: PDP-8/e rack questions) In-Reply-To: References: <95838e090901060307ia16512dt69ff5866f7d14425@mail.gmail.com> <20090107020323.GA9735@night.db.net> Message-ID: <4964C169.1090303@gmail.com> Henk Gooijen wrote: > Unloading a truck can be quite a task with this stuff. For that > reason I always rent a truck with a hydraulic tail (or what the > proper name is for it). We used to do that a lot for museum stuff - but the problem there is that some of the bigger machine cabinets only fit on the tail-lift with an inch or so to spare - we were always paranoid that one was going to just drop straight off the back. Ramps seem a bit better *if* you've got the necessary cables/straps to safely cope with the distance/weight. (I'm having the reverse to the unloading issue right now - we've got a huge cabinet in the basement of our house that I want to get back up to ground level, and working against gravity rather than with it is a major pain!) cheers Jules From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jan 7 09:07:47 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 10:07:47 -0500 Subject: Lifting heavy rack-mount gear (was Re: PDP-8/e rack questions) In-Reply-To: <4964C169.1090303@gmail.com> References: <95838e090901060307ia16512dt69ff5866f7d14425@mail.gmail.com> <20090107020323.GA9735@night.db.net> <4964C169.1090303@gmail.com> Message-ID: > We used to do that a lot for museum stuff - but the problem there is that > some of the bigger machine cabinets only fit on the tail-lift with an inch > or so to spare - we were always paranoid that one was going to just drop > straight off the back. This can be scary, but there are a couple of tricks to use. One, if the liftgate has chains that go up at an angle from the back of the liftgate to a few feetup each side of the back of the truck, one can stick a board or load brace across the liftgate platform just against where the chains meet the platform. If the load starts to roll down the platform, it will hit this and stop. Or, two, simply strap the load down to the platform, all the way around, just remembering to strap it so the latch is to the side and not pinned down when the platform is on the ground. > Ramps seem a bit better *if* you've got the necessary cables/straps to > safely cope with the distance/weight. I never use ramps anymore, unless the load consists of small things. And Dave REALLY needs to invest in some cumalongs. -- Will From bob at jfcl.com Wed Jan 7 09:46:21 2009 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 07:46:21 -0800 Subject: KD-11F (11/03) in a BA11-N?? Message-ID: <002a01c970df$168f5580$43ae0080$@com> >Pete Turnbull (pete at dunnington.plus.com) wrote: >No, that'll be a BA11-M ... Oopss. Sorry. >The issue is not the number of address bits, which won't matter at all. That's what I was hoping, but there's one thing I don't understand - the LSI11 CPU only drives 16 address bits, but some of the option cards (e.g. DLV11-E) and the MSV11 memory decode 18 address bits. It's not sufficient to simply pull the upper two address bits to always be zeros or ones - the upper two address bits have to be zeros (for the memories) when the CPU outputs an address in the range 000000..157777, and ones (for the I/O cards) when the CPU outputs an address from 160000..177777. It's not a difficult problem, but where is the logic to do this? It's not on the LSI11 card, since those extra address bits weren't even defined in the QBUS when this card was made. > It's that your H9273 backplane is set up for an 11/23 and won't have >W2 and W3 inserted, but they need to be for a quad-height M7264 ... Actually the BA11-N H9273 does have W2 and W3 installed - according to the Microcomputers and Memories handbook, those are supposed to be installed if the CPU is in slot one, and removed if there's no CPU (i.e. for an expansion box). It doesn't actually say anything about which model CPU, but in any case they are installed on mine. Do they need to be _removed_ for an M7264? So is W1 (installed) for that matter, which I think controls the LTC. Thanks, Bob From bob at jfcl.com Wed Jan 7 09:54:30 2009 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 07:54:30 -0800 Subject: H9273 backplane wiring (was KD-11F (11/03) in a BA11-N?? ) Message-ID: <002b01c970e0$3a451180$aecf3480$@com> >tiggerlasv (tiggerlasv at aim.com) wrote: >The BA11-N user guide can be found here: >http://vt100.net/mirror/antonio/ba11nug1.pdf Thanks - I guess I should have done this first :-) Actually it says pretty much what I expected except for figure 1-9 on page 1-8. This shows that slots 4 and 6 in the H9273 are wired differently (it implies that they have no QBUS connection!) from the adjacent slots. That seems hard to believe - can that really be true?? Were these slots reserved only for things like the second card in the RLV11? Another question - this diagram implies that the BDV11 is always in the bottom slot regardless of how many cards you have. Is that correct? Do you need grant continuity cards then for all the empty slots? Other than that, table 2-1 describes the jumpers and it looks like it says pretty much the same thing as the Microcomputers and Interfaces handbook - W2 and W3 are inserted for the first chassis, and removed for an expansion chassis. It doesn't look like any of the front panel jumpers would be affected by the type of the CPU card. Thanks again, Bob From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jan 7 10:27:22 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 11:27:22 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/e rack questions In-Reply-To: <4963EAC0.1090408@nktelco.net> References: <49627B4E.3080606@update.uu.se> <4963EAC0.1090408@nktelco.net> Message-ID: On Jan 6, 2009, at 6:35 PM, Charles H Dickman wrote: >> Every rack-mounted PDP-8/e I've seen has had slides like this. >> These slides were made by ChassisTrak. >> > Actually General Devices in Indianapolis, Indiana, USA and they are > still around. > > www.gendevco.com So ChassisTrak is the model or line name, then? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jan 7 10:31:14 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 11:31:14 -0500 Subject: Lifting heavy rack-mount gear (was Re: PDP-8/e rack questions) In-Reply-To: References: <95838e090901060307ia16512dt69ff5866f7d14425@mail.gmail.com> <20090107020323.GA9735@night.db.net> Message-ID: <3B7F71B3-1E60-43DD-8799-65E0AFDD2EB4@neurotica.com> On Jan 7, 2009, at 1:40 AM, Henk Gooijen wrote: >> On Jan 7, 2009, at 12:03 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> IIRC, Sridar has a story or two that, fortunately, I can't top. >> >> Yeah, but most of Sridhar's stories involve his gear nearly >> crushing ME! ;) >> >> This is rather severely off-topic, as most of the machines >> described are pretty new, but I recently offloaded some very heavy >> gear from a truck onto my driveway by myself > > ... snip very nice story with lots of heavy cool pictures :-) Thanks! These didn't actually have anything to do with Sridhar, despite the context...should've mentioned that earlier. > Those machines were *just* small enough to go through the opening > (standing upright). I bet that you measured the height first! > Unloading a truck can be quite a task with this stuff. For that > reason I always rent a truck with a hydraulic tail (or what the > proper name is for it). > But when everythiong is unloaded, yes, the memories are fun. I neglected to mention that I flew from Florida to Chicago to pick up that truck as a one-way rental, and the people in Chicago gave me a rear door height measurement that was inaccurate by about six inches. Pat and I were quite pissed to find that the truck was actually too short to accommodate the Sun Fire 6800s, and we had to lay them down. The other gear (including the E10K) is shorter, though, and that stuff did fit. Also, I was unable to find a truck with a lift gate for a one-way rental, so this was the only real option. The upside is, now I look like a god to my new employer. ;) He has moved a lot of very high- end gear so he knows the difficulties involved. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jan 7 10:34:23 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 11:34:23 -0500 Subject: Lifting heavy rack-mount gear (was Re: PDP-8/e rack questions) In-Reply-To: <20090107073112.GA15450@Update.UU.SE> References: <95838e090901060307ia16512dt69ff5866f7d14425@mail.gmail.com> <20090107020323.GA9735@night.db.net> <20090107073112.GA15450@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Jan 7, 2009, at 2:31 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Nice pictures, they make me feel like a total amateur having "only" > moved a 11/70 (two cabinets) and a Alphaserver(one cabinet). And in > both > cases used a truck with a lift. Those lifts are nice sometimes, but they are not without their problems. Most of them have a very steep ramp of about 3-4" at the very edge that big racks have trouble with. Also, they "jerk" when motion starts...cranking down the racks' feet or strapping them down is a must. >> between-the-garage-doors columns on my house. I then drove the truck >> forward, an inch or so at a time, running back every time to check on >> things, until the rearmost pallet was nearly off the truck. > > neat trick :) scary one too. Yes, I was worried for a while. I laughed aloud when it was done, though. I must've looked like a nut...standing there in my driveway all alone, soaked with sweat, surrounded by a few $mil worth of huge computers, laughing.. >> The E10K was the last to come off the truck. It was still >> unbelievably heavy even after the removal of all hot-swappable > > I was not participating myself, but heard some scary stories from when > the computer club moved a E10K into the server room. I allways giggle > when I see the two very visible dents in the sill from the E10K > wheels. They certainly leave their mark! :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jan 7 10:37:19 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 11:37:19 -0500 Subject: Lifting heavy rack-mount gear (was Re: PDP-8/e rack questions) In-Reply-To: References: <95838e090901060307ia16512dt69ff5866f7d14425@mail.gmail.com> <20090107020323.GA9735@night.db.net> <4964C169.1090303@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1AE3396B-E1BB-4E16-BD5D-71511A9627B0@neurotica.com> On Jan 7, 2009, at 10:07 AM, William Donzelli wrote: > And Dave REALLY needs to invest in some cumalongs. Yes, most definitely. This time, I was broke and out of time. But, those ratchet straps worked surprisingly well for the oh-so- wrong tasks I put them to! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Jan 7 10:38:27 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 08:38:27 -0800 Subject: Lifting heavy rack-mount gear (was Re: PDP-8/e rack questions) In-Reply-To: <4964C169.1090303@gmail.com> References: <95838e090901060307ia16512dt69ff5866f7d14425@mail.gmail.com> <20090107020323.GA9735@night.db.net> , <4964C169.1090303@gmail.com> Message-ID: Not as dramatic as some other stories on this thread, I recall when I acquired my 11/34. I'd specified a truck with a lift gate - and arrived at the rental agency (Enterprise - to be avoided!) to find a ramp truck. The person from who I was acquiring the machine (plus a dozen terminals and a boatload of documentation) was moving out of area and that day was my only opportunity to do the pick-up, so I couldn't just reschedule. When I picked up the machine, I was aided by its former owner and his father; the latter gentleman had worked as a longshoreman and knew all the tricks. Plus, we were pushing this six-foot rack (with the processor and two RK05 drives) UP the ramp. As it happened, my brother-in-law was visiting that day and I drafted him to help me unload - which meant bringing that six-foot rack DOWN the ramp. It wasn't pretty. Then, to get it up the two steps from my garage into my basement, we laid it over on its back and slid it, then stood it up again. I wonder why my brother-in-law rarely visits anymore? :-) -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules Richardson [jules.richardson99 at gmail.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 6:51 AM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Lifting heavy rack-mount gear (was Re: PDP-8/e rack questions) Henk Gooijen wrote: > Unloading a truck can be quite a task with this stuff. For that > reason I always rent a truck with a hydraulic tail (or what the > proper name is for it). We used to do that a lot for museum stuff - but the problem there is that some of the bigger machine cabinets only fit on the tail-lift with an inch or so to spare - we were always paranoid that one was going to just drop straight off the back. Ramps seem a bit better *if* you've got the necessary cables/straps to safely cope with the distance/weight. (I'm having the reverse to the unloading issue right now - we've got a huge cabinet in the basement of our house that I want to get back up to ground level, and working against gravity rather than with it is a major pain!) cheers Jules From steve at cosam.org Wed Jan 7 11:03:18 2009 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 18:03:18 +0100 Subject: Lifting heavy rack-mount gear (was Re: PDP-8/e rack questions) In-Reply-To: References: <95838e090901060307ia16512dt69ff5866f7d14425@mail.gmail.com> <20090107020323.GA9735@night.db.net> <20090107073112.GA15450@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <95838e090901070903w186eefe8sa35f7ff79a6a6b22@mail.gmail.com> 2009/1/7 Dave McGuire : > On Jan 7, 2009, at 2:31 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> Nice pictures, they make me feel like a total amateur having "only" >> moved a 11/70 (two cabinets) and a Alphaserver(one cabinet). And in both >> cases used a truck with a lift. > > Those lifts are nice sometimes, but they are not without their problems. > Most of them have a very steep ramp of about 3-4" at the very edge that big > racks have trouble with. > It's either that or, like I had last time, the lift itself is essentially one big ramp. Having successfully rolled two H960s off the truck alone, I figured I'd finally had an "event-free" haul. Unfortunately the kit in the third and final rack was heavier than the other two combined... I ended up resorting to a variant on that ratchet strap method to slowly inch the thing down the lift/ramp to level-ish ground. I know it can't have been that long ago as the lovely maroon reminder under my big toe nail still hasn't grown out yet ;-) -- Steve Maddison http://www.cosam.org/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jan 7 11:19:32 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 12:19:32 -0500 Subject: Lifting heavy rack-mount gear (was Re: PDP-8/e rack questions) In-Reply-To: References: <95838e090901060307ia16512dt69ff5866f7d14425@mail.gmail.com> <20090107020323.GA9735@night.db.net> <4964C169.1090303@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Not as dramatic as some other stories on this thread, I recall when I acquired my 11/34. I'd specified a truck with a lift gate - and arrived at the rental agency (Enterprise - to be avoided!) to find a ramp truck. The basic rule of thumb is not to be cheap with rental trucks. Pretty much avoid all of the consumer grade deals (Uhaul, Enterprise, etc.) and go straight for the commercial deals. The pricing schemes are a little different (sometimes less!), and you have to show that you are a business with some sort of official looking business paper to sign up, but pretty much everything is in tip top condition with no screwups. I use Ryder Commercial Services, and have been very pleased. -- Will From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Jan 7 11:38:25 2009 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 12:38:25 -0500 Subject: got netbsd 2.0.3 to boot on 11/730 in sim Message-ID: <7633.1231349905@mini> The vax unix nerds on the list might find this mildly interesting: I hacked a copy of simh vax780 to look like a vax 11/730. I made a modified version of the standalone netbsd "boot" program which does nfs loads from a deuna (it will do copy's too, which is handy at times) With that I finished debugging netbsd 2.0.3 on the 730. I've gotten it to boot to a shell prompt on a simh 11/730 with 4mb of memory using an nfs root. woo hoo! So, next I'll make a disk image and put my unibus scsi card in my real 730 and debug that. With any luck it will just work. Once it's going on real hardware I'll get it going on the latest netbsd (4.0?) and get a patch back to the netbsd/vax maintainer. [for those who care, I use a linux program which simulates the tu58 to boot my 730. I made a boot tape image with putr which contains the netbsd boot program (as well as the other files needed to load microcode, etc). I plan to spend some time and make a linux program which will put together valid tu58 tape images, just to make my life easier, since putr requires DOS.] I have to give the netbsd folks a lot of credit. Their posix build system is very handy. But note that releases before 2.0.3 will *NOT* build on a posix machine - they require native netbsd to build cleanly. I've always had a soft spot for the 730; maybe because the 780 was just too damn big! :-) -brad From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 7 12:28:23 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 10:28:23 -0800 Subject: got netbsd 2.0.3 to boot on 11/730 in sim In-Reply-To: <7633.1231349905@mini> References: <7633.1231349905@mini> Message-ID: <496483C7.17424.577EEC0@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Jan 2009 at 12:38, Brad Parker wrote: > I've always had a soft spot for the 730; maybe because the 780 was > just too damn big! :-) I can recall doing a price-performance analysis of VAXen around 1983 or so. My conclusion was that the 750 was the most bang for the buck and that the 730 was pretty underpowered for the money. Just curious if this was really the case. At any rate, we were pretty happy with the 750. Cheers, Chuck From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Jan 7 12:25:02 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 18:25:02 +0000 Subject: H9273 backplane wiring (was KD-11F (11/03) in a BA11-N?? ) In-Reply-To: <002b01c970e0$3a451180$aecf3480$@com> References: <002b01c970e0$3a451180$aecf3480$@com> Message-ID: <4964F37E.5030606@dunnington.plus.com> On 07/01/2009 15:54, Bob Armstrong wrote: >> tiggerlasv (tiggerlasv at aim.com) wrote: > >> The BA11-N user guide can be found here: >> http://vt100.net/mirror/antonio/ba11nug1.pdf > > Thanks - I guess I should have done this first :-) > > Actually it says pretty much what I expected except for figure 1-9 on page > 1-8. This shows that slots 4 and 6 in the H9273 are wired differently (it > implies that they have no QBUS connection!) from the adjacent slots. That > seems hard to believe - can that really be true?? Were these slots reserved > only for things like the second card in the RLV11? It isn't true. The diagram is just examples; all the slots except slot 1 are identical[1]. The RLV11, as a two-board set, uses the CD interconnect to communicate and will work in any two adjacent slots in a straight (not serpentine!) backplane. [1] The SRUN L signal which lights the RUN LED is connected to the panel only from slot 1, for example. > Another question - this diagram implies that the BDV11 is always in the > bottom slot regardless of how many cards you have. Is that correct? Do you > need grant continuity cards then for all the empty slots? No, it's usually in the bottom slot (for optimum termination of the bus). There are places you do need grant continuity cards in a QBus system, but that's not one of them. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Jan 7 12:25:05 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 18:25:05 +0000 Subject: KD-11F (11/03) in a BA11-N?? In-Reply-To: <002a01c970df$168f5580$43ae0080$@com> References: <002a01c970df$168f5580$43ae0080$@com> Message-ID: <4964F381.2040707@dunnington.plus.com> On 07/01/2009 15:46, Bob Armstrong wrote: >> Pete Turnbull (pete at dunnington.plus.com) wrote: >> No, that'll be a BA11-M ... > > Oopss. Sorry. Forgiven :-) >> The issue is not the number of address bits, which won't matter at all. > > That's what I was hoping, but there's one thing I don't understand - the > LSI11 CPU only drives 16 address bits, but some of the option cards (e.g. > DLV11-E) and the MSV11 memory decode 18 address bits. It's not sufficient > to simply pull the upper two address bits to always be zeros or ones - the > upper two address bits have to be zeros (for the memories) when the CPU > outputs an address in the range 000000..157777, and ones (for the I/O cards) > when the CPU outputs an address from 160000..177777. It's not a difficult > problem, but where is the logic to do this? It's not on the LSI11 card, > since those extra address bits weren't even defined in the QBUS when this > card was made. Actually it *is* on the card, just not in the form you might expect. All I/O page access on a QBus is controlled by a separate signal called BBS7 (Bus Bank Select 7) and I/O page devices respond to that being asserted, not by actually decoding the upper address bits (which they ignore). However, a consequence of that is that cards which do decode 18 address bits (like an MSV11-D) is that they may respond to addresses which are in the I/O page in a 16-bit system -- in other words, a 64KB (32KW) MSV11-D with a base address of 000000(8) responds to all addresses from 000000(8) to 177777(8). It has a jumper to disable the top page. Maybe you need to do that? >> It's that your H9273 backplane is set up for an 11/23 and won't have >> W2 and W3 inserted, but they need to be for a quad-height M7264 ... > > Actually the BA11-N H9273 does have W2 and W3 installed - according to the > Microcomputers and Memories handbook, those are supposed to be installed if > the CPU is in slot one, and removed if there's no CPU (i.e. for an expansion > box). It doesn't actually say anything about which model CPU, but in any > case they are installed on mine. Do they need to be _removed_ for an M7264? No, they don't need to be removed, but they should normally only be installed for a quad CPU. They connect two fingers on the upper side of section C to the corresponding fingers on the lower side. > So is W1 (installed) for that matter, which I think controls the LTC. Yes, that's right (and normal), though it should be removed in all but the last box in a multi-box setup. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Jan 7 13:18:57 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 11:18:57 -0800 Subject: got netbsd 2.0.3 to boot on 11/730 in sim In-Reply-To: <7633.1231349905@mini> References: <7633.1231349905@mini> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brad Parker > Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 9:38 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: got netbsd 2.0.3 to boot on 11/730 in sim > > > The vax unix nerds on the list might find this mildly interesting: > > I hacked a copy of simh vax780 to look like a vax 11/730. I made a > modified version of the standalone netbsd "boot" program which does nfs > loads from a deuna (it will do copy's too, which is handy at times) > > With that I finished debugging netbsd 2.0.3 on the 730. I've gotten it > to boot to a shell prompt on a simh 11/730 with 4mb of memory using an > nfs root. woo hoo! > Very cool - congrats! [snip] > > I've always had a soft spot for the 730; maybe because the 780 was > just too damn big! :-) > [snip] Too big? C'mon, it's only 1200 lbs. (550 kg) or so.... As an interesting coincidence, I just got a VAX-11/780-5 to boot into VMS (yesterday!). After doing a careful restoration of the potentially broken bits (power supplies and such), I got the machine running diagnostics. N.B.: you need to be sure to have the *right* diagnostics for your machine and its components. Just because the diskette says it's a diagnostic for an 11/785 doesn't mean it will match your hardware. The available literature on the versioning leaves something to be desired; I think DEC assumed they'd give you a set of floppies matched to your machine and you'd be happy evermore. (If you're undertaking this and want to know more about what I learned, please drop me an email.) Getting VMS going was a challenge because of peripherals. The machine has a RH780, but we are using our RP06s on our PDP-10s; our RP07s all need restoration; and we don't have enough power in the room where the VAX lives to run one. The machine also has a CI780, so I suggested using a hierarchical storage controller. We briefly considered a HSC, but decided against investing in RA drives. :-) So we picked up an HSJ50 from PSDS in Woodinville, Washington - really great people for old DEC stuff. They built it out for us with a full complement of RZ29s in Storageworks shelves - which was a mixed blessing.... When we decided to go the HSJ route, I figured we'd have a controller, perhaps a single shelf and then be able to plug in a CDROM and/or magtape drive into the unused ports. The system PSDS built for us is FULLY built out, with six shelves and RAID arrays done properly - vertically, across the shelves. So I had no free ports. I tried a couple of simple ideas, not wanting to completely disassemble the system, but I was facing the idea of restructuring the RAID arrays to free up a shelf, unplugging that shelf from the HSJ and plugging in the CDROM. Yuck. What I ended up doing was easier and worked out well. I used a MicroVAX (3100) setup with a single Storageworks shelf and a CDROM drive. I booted the MicroVAX into standalone backup and restored the install save set onto an RZ29; I also copied the entire CD onto another RZ. I reduced a couple of RAID storagesets on the HSJ, installed the RZs from the MicroVAX and was able to boot from then! There was one interesting bit of learning curve on this. I was unable to get standalone backup to boot on the VAX-11/780-5, despite having a set of disks for that purpose: the VAX-11 never 'saw' the stuff on the HSJ. I verified that CI was working correctly (while SABU was running I disabled the CI ports at the HSJ and SABU complained), but still couldn't access devices. So I tried simply booting, using CIBOO.CMD on the console disk. One challenge was figuring out the device number: R2 contains the CI node(s) and R3 contains the unit number at that node (or in the case of our dual-redundant setup, nodes). It wasn't clear what that number would be: SCSI ID, shelf ID, some conflation of the two? I finally figured out something that wasn't clear from the HSJ documentation: the unit IDs are NOT arbitrary labels. Keep in mind that disks are represented as: disk(s) ---> storageset (RAID, mirror, etc.) ---> unit When I received the storage system, things were set up with disk IDs like DISK100, representing shelf 1, SCSI ID 0, LUN 0; RAID IDs like R0, R1, etc.; and unit IDs of D0, D1 and so forth. After some futzing, I figured out: the unit ID numbers (digits) ARE the IDs to be deposited in the VAX-11's R3 register. So to boot D6 (one of the single-disk units I'd added), R3 <-- 6. Happy dance! So I'm going to rebuild the RAID arrays with full membership and install onto one. I'm going to have more storage than a VAX-11 knows what to do with. :-) And once that's all done, I have a VAX-11/785 that's still ill - yes, we have TWO. Is that cool or what? Cheers -- Ian From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 7 13:18:49 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 19:18:49 +0000 (GMT) Subject: PDP-11/05 returns to life In-Reply-To: <1231279827.6447.97.camel@spasmo> from "Tobias Russell" at Jan 6, 9 10:10:27 pm Message-ID: > With the onboard console, how hard is it to build a device to convert > current loop into RS232 levels? Not very difficult. You cna really cheat and grab TTL level signals off the pins of the UART (I don't think they're brought out on the connector, but you might want to check!) or slightly cheat and examine the current loop circuit and figure you you don't _have_ to use it as a current loop, there are significant voltage swings too,. That means your converter will only wrok with an 11/05, not any old current loop device, but that's not a problem -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 7 13:36:16 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 19:36:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Source for SCART connectors in US? In-Reply-To: from "Steven Hirsch" at Jan 7, 9 07:03:50 am Message-ID: > > Can anyone help me find a supplier for SCART video connectors in the USA? > Maplins in UK has them but wants almost $100.00 (!) flat fee for handling > on international orders. I've not looked, but I would think Farnell would have them (http://www.farnell.com). Now, they probably have a flat fee for things orderd in the US (in the UK we have to pay a flat fee of \pounds 15.95 per order for 'extended range' items from the US), but it may be more easonable that Maplins. What connectors do you want? Plugs, socksts, cables? -tony From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jan 7 13:45:13 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 11:45:13 -0800 Subject: Preserving directory times on mirrors created with wget Message-ID: <49650649.1090201@bitsavers.org> General question about mirroring with wget that has been driving me crazy for a couple of days. My mirror of bitsavers is maintained using wget to my local work machine. Over the break, I switched to 10.5 of OS X, and got the latest darwin port of wget. In the version I had been running, directory dates were maintained drwxr-xr-x 9 aek staff 264 Nov 23 2006 . drwxr-xr-x 380 aek staff 12876 Jan 3 09:02 .. -rw-r--r-- 1 aek staff 479 Dec 19 10:54 .listing -rw-r--r-- 1 aek staff 3835317 Mar 3 2004 M-4660_IOU-40_Jun79.pdf -rw-r--r-- 1 aek staff 8160815 Mar 3 2004 M-4908_Q30cpuTech_1983.pdf note the directory date is Nov 2006 even though the .listing was from 2008 using the same command (wget -m -np ftp://...) I now get drwxrwxr-x 2 pdp1 pdp1 4096 Jan 7 11:41 . drwxrwxr-x 3 pdp1 pdp1 4096 Jan 7 11:37 .. -rw-rw-r-- 1 pdp1 pdp1 479 Jan 7 11:37 .listing -rw-rw-r-- 1 pdp1 pdp1 3835317 Mar 3 2004 M-4660_IOU-40_Jun79.pdf -rw-rw-r-- 1 pdp1 pdp1 8160815 Mar 3 2004 M-4908_Q30cpuTech_1983.pdf I remember having a hell of a time finding a version that had the correct directory behavior, and now I've forgotten what I had done to get it to work. Anyone recognize this? From db at db.net Wed Jan 7 13:50:21 2009 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 14:50:21 -0500 Subject: Lifting heavy rack-mount gear (was Re: PDP-8/e rack questions) In-Reply-To: References: <95838e090901060307ia16512dt69ff5866f7d14425@mail.gmail.com> <20090107020323.GA9735@night.db.net> <20090107073112.GA15450@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20090107195021.GA25802@night.db.net> On Wed, Jan 07, 2009 at 11:34:23AM -0500, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jan 7, 2009, at 2:31 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > >Nice pictures, they make me feel like a total amateur having "only" ... Well, in a pinch I suppose a piece of rope could take the place of a belt like the professionals use. I simply wanted to make sure no one here lost a finger. I suppose there is a proper professional name for those belts? ;-) I'd use some 2x4 and some very strong rope instead of putting my fingers under a rack. > >I was not participating myself, but heard some scary stories from when > >the computer club moved a E10K into the server room. I allways giggle > >when I see the two very visible dents in the sill from the E10K > >wheels. I suppose I shouldn't mention the night I helped a friend move some old computer rack into his basement apartment at 2am. I bet there are still pieces of missing concrete, from the steps on those stairs as we dropped the rack step by step... (*WHAM* *WHAM*) > They certainly leave their mark! :-) Really? :-) > -Dave - Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Wed Jan 7 14:02:30 2009 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 14:02:30 -0600 (CST) Subject: SGI Visualisation Systems... Good for Maya and what else? In-Reply-To: <20090107195021.GA25802@night.db.net> Message-ID: I have a small SGI collection (a dozen and counting, including the Onyx2, Origin 2000 rack and rack Onyx 10000) and, to be honest, I mostly collect them because... well, they look cool, and when I was in a position where I couldn't collect (a. New Zealand, b. No space) I drooled over them. I was asked recently what my Onyx rack was good for. And it occurred to me beyond the easy answer of "running Maya"... I wasn't really sure. So, if you used one of these bigger machines in production (particularly the Onyx, Onyx2, etc graphics "Visualisation" systems)... I'd sure love to know what -you- used it for. (Both of my Onyxes came from Boeing, the rack has a rather wicked looking custom built VME card... but I've got no clue what it was really used for) Thanks all; - JP From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Wed Jan 7 14:04:58 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 15:04:58 -0500 Subject: Preserving directory times on mirrors created with wget References: <49650649.1090201@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <18789.2794.992878.675520@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Al" == Al Kossow writes: Al> General question about mirroring with wget that has been driving Al> me crazy for a couple of days. Al> My mirror of bitsavers is maintained using wget to my local work Al> machine. Al> Over the break, I switched to 10.5 of OS X, and got the latest Al> darwin port of wget. Al> In the version I had been running, directory dates were Al> maintained Al> ...using the same command (wget -m -np ftp://...) I now get Al> drwxrwxr-x 2 pdp1 pdp1 4096 Jan 7 11:41 . drwxrwxr-x 3 pdp1 pdp1 Al> 4096 Jan 7 11:37 .. -rw-rw-r-- 1 pdp1 pdp1 479 Jan 7 11:37 Al> .listing -rw-rw-r-- 1 pdp1 pdp1 3835317 Mar 3 2004 Al> M-4660_IOU-40_Jun79.pdf -rw-rw-r-- 1 pdp1 pdp1 8160815 Mar 3 2004 Al> M-4908_Q30cpuTech_1983.pdf Al> I remember having a hell of a time finding a version that had the Al> correct directory behavior, and now I've forgotten what I had Al> done to get it to work. Al> Anyone recognize this? No, but I just tried it on my 10.5 system where I installed wget 1.11.4. I don't remember how; most likely I built it from source since I don't like Fink at all. It works as expected: -m is documented to do the right thing and indeed it does. paul From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Jan 7 14:44:59 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 14:44:59 -0600 Subject: SGI Visualisation Systems... Good for Maya and what else? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4965144B.3030308@gmail.com> JP Hindin wrote: > I have a small SGI collection (a dozen and counting, including the Onyx2, > Origin 2000 rack and rack Onyx 10000) and, to be honest, I mostly collect > them because... well, they look cool, and when I was in a position where I > couldn't collect (a. New Zealand, b. No space) I drooled over them. Weta Digital in NZ had *masses* of SGI kit - wandering around their machine room was fun. I wonder if it's still all there... probably been ditched for a load of PCs by now :-( I'd love a big SGI - Indy/Indigo/4D machines seem reasonably plentiful (for purchase+shipping costs at least) but the big stuff seems pretty rare (& uneconomical to move long distances) cheers Jules From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Wed Jan 7 15:02:49 2009 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 15:02:49 -0600 (CST) Subject: SGI Visualisation Systems... Good for Maya and what else? In-Reply-To: <4965144B.3030308@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Jan 2009, Jules Richardson wrote: > JP Hindin wrote: > > I have a small SGI collection (a dozen and counting, including the Onyx2, > > Origin 2000 rack and rack Onyx 10000) and, to be honest, I mostly collect > > them because... well, they look cool, and when I was in a position where I > > couldn't collect (a. New Zealand, b. No space) I drooled over them. > > Weta Digital in NZ had *masses* of SGI kit - wandering around their machine > room was fun. I wonder if it's still all there... probably been ditched for a > load of PCs by now :-( I lived about 5 minutes from Camperdown where Weta lived. (I actually lived in the same suburb as Peter Jackson, so I saw him weekly at the shops and stuff) Curious you mention them. I only ever remember seeing O2s, Indigo2s and similar (many moons ago, mind you). From recollection they only ever used 1U PCs for their renderwall. I'm sure that'd been replaced by blades now. I don't remember seeing any big SGIs... but that is hardly conclusive. > I'd love a big SGI - Indy/Indigo/4D machines seem reasonably plentiful (for > purchase+shipping costs at least) but the big stuff seems pretty rare (& > uneconomical to move long distances) I'm unsure where you're at - but I picked all of mine up from the Boeing surplus in Missouri. They're selling them cheaper than dirt... (how about a pallet of four Onyx2 desksides for $25? Or an Origin3000 for $100?) - JP From frustum at pacbell.net Wed Jan 7 15:31:15 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 15:31:15 -0600 Subject: more housecleaning -- floppy disk manuals Message-ID: <49651F23.9010504@pacbell.net> For the cost of shipping from Austin, TX. All are originals, except where noted. If any of these aren't yet scanned, I'd be happy to donate them to someone who would scan them. I'm more interested in shipping the bunch than splitting them up. SA850/851 Double Sided Diskette Storage Drive OEM Manual SA850/851 Double Sided Diskette Storage Drive Service Manual SA810/860 Single/Double Sided Half-Height Diskette Storage Drives OEM Manual (copy) SA800/801 Illustrated Parts Catalog SA800/801 Diskette Storage Drive Theory of Operations SA800/801 Diskette Storage Drive Maintenance Manual SA800/801 Diskette Storage Drive OEM Manual SA400 minifloppy Diskette Storage Drive OEM Manual SA400 minifloppy Diskette Storage Drive Service Manual Tandon OEM Operating and Service Manual TM-100-1 and -2 Disk drives 48 TPI Tandon Product Specifications Mini Double Sided Recording Flexible Disk Drive Model TM100-4 96 TPI DSR Tandon TM 100 DIsk Drive OPerating & Service Manual Tandon TM100-1 and TM100-2 Disk Drives 48 TPI Service Manual Tandon TM100 Disk Drive 96/100 TPI Operating & Service Manual (copy) From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Jan 7 16:07:03 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 16:07:03 -0600 Subject: SGI Visualisation Systems... Good for Maya and what else? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49652787.2050503@gmail.com> JP Hindin wrote: > > On Wed, 7 Jan 2009, Jules Richardson wrote: >> JP Hindin wrote: >>> I have a small SGI collection (a dozen and counting, including the Onyx2, >>> Origin 2000 rack and rack Onyx 10000) and, to be honest, I mostly collect >>> them because... well, they look cool, and when I was in a position where I >>> couldn't collect (a. New Zealand, b. No space) I drooled over them. >> Weta Digital in NZ had *masses* of SGI kit - wandering around their machine >> room was fun. I wonder if it's still all there... probably been ditched for a >> load of PCs by now :-( > > I lived about 5 minutes from Camperdown where Weta lived. (I actually > lived in the same suburb as Peter Jackson, so I saw him weekly at the > shops and stuff) > > Curious you mention them. I only ever remember seeing O2s, Indigo2s and > similar (many moons ago, mind you). From recollection they only ever used > 1U PCs for their renderwall. I'm sure that'd been replaced by blades now. > I don't remember seeing any big SGIs... but that is hardly conclusive. Well I went to see them there circa 2000 - their machine room was *full* of dual-height racks with mostly O2k systems, plus a few cabs of graphics hardware (although I don't recall exactly what now) and others just stuffed with disks. I don't remember what they had for desktop systems now, whether those were SGI or just stock PCs... There was definitely no PC renderfarm at that point in time. Oh, ISTR that NIWA had some SGI stuff alongside their Cray at their Wellington site, too - I suspect that might still be there as most people investing in anything that requires a Cray probably hang onto it for a while :-) >> I'd love a big SGI - Indy/Indigo/4D machines seem reasonably plentiful (for >> purchase+shipping costs at least) but the big stuff seems pretty rare (& >> uneconomical to move long distances) > > I'm unsure where you're at - but I picked all of mine up from the Boeing > surplus in Missouri. They're selling them cheaper than dirt... (how about > a pallet of four Onyx2 desksides for $25? Or an Origin3000 for $100?) Middle of Minnesota - there's absolutely nothing up here that needs anything more powerful than an office with a few PCs in it, sadly. I'm not even sure what there might be down in Minneapolis - it's not exactly heavy computing territory (although of course 3M have their roots here, so maybe there are still a few gems tucked away down that way) cheers Jules From frustum at pacbell.net Wed Jan 7 16:29:05 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 16:29:05 -0600 Subject: more housecleaning -- floppy disk manuals In-Reply-To: <49651F23.9010504@pacbell.net> References: <49651F23.9010504@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <49652CB1.1050400@pacbell.net> Jim Battle wrote: > For the cost of shipping from Austin, TX. All are originals, except > where noted. If any of these aren't yet scanned, I'd be happy to donate > them to someone who would scan them. I'm more interested in shipping the > bunch than splitting them up. They are claimed. From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Jan 7 17:01:20 2009 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 23:01:20 -0000 Subject: HP9836 hardware. software and manuals availability In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <006401c9711b$de4ec650$ee04010a@dis754cbb81360> I sent this yesterday offlist, but now I've had a delivery failure and no reply. So I'm certainly interested. I don't think I can find a use (or room) for five systems, but I'd be happy to collect and pass this stuff on (and scan the docs if they've not already been scanned). I'm in Oxfordshire and I work in Bracknell so I expect that I could make a trip into Buckinghamshire to collect. 5 HP9836s is probably too much for me to digest, but I could collect them and then pass them on to others. I'd quite like to hang on to one (Tony Duell has convinced me of that). I could also scan the manuals (if they're not already on Bitsavers) and then pass them on to those who have a greater need. I'm sure there would be room in the car for the other bits and bobs too! Regards, Antonio arcarlini at iee.org -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 05 January 2009 19:30 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: srp at saslab.net Subject: Re: HP9836 hardware. software and manuals availability > > I have a large collection of hardware, software and manuals relating > to the HP9836 computer. For the uninitated on Classiccmp, this is a 68000-based computer (OK, there was a very late version with a 68010 in it...). It's a desktop machine with a built-in keyboard and 2 5.25" floppy drives. There are 8 'DIO' expansion slots, 4 of whcih can take boards with external connectors, the other 4 take boards without connectors, like memory, DMA controller, etc. There is a built-in HPIB interface, but nothing else (in particualr, there is not serial port). There are 2 main versions. The 9836A has a single-bit graphics board and a monochrome monitor. The 9836C has a 4 bit-per-pixel graphics oard, a colour lookup tale, adn a colour monitor. > The following items are available to anyone who would like them and > who could collect them from Buckinghamshire. I will only give an > outline of the items available although \I can provide more detailed > listings on request: I would be interested in seeing said lists... Do you want one person to take the lot, or would you consider splitting it? > 1. 5 Hp9836 computers of which 2 are fully functioning. The other 3 > have various failed subsystems but they could easily be cannibalised > into 2 working systems. There is no way I can house any more of these machines, alas (darn it, I already have a 9836A and a 9836CU, along with a 9826 (similar machine but with one floppy drive and a small mono monitor buiit in where the second drive would be). However, I might be ale to help the new owner get all the machine going again. I've done considerale component-level repair on these machines, and I have a pile of 'unofficial schematics'. > 2. Approximately 8 5.25 disk drives, all failed and in need of repair. If these are from the 9836, they'll be 40 cylinder 2-head units. Either Tandon or MPI I think. > 3. Full manual sets for Basic and Pascal in t 2 versions of each. I owuld actually be interested in at least one set of each of those manuals. I think they'll be on the Australian museum site, but it is decidedly non-trivial for me to download and print them. > 4. A collection of memory cards and math coprocessor cards. Again, I would be interested in a coprocessor card, this being one of the DIO cards I don't yet have... > 5. Both 3.5 and 5.25 original operating system disks. The 3.5" disks are probably available from the Australian site, the 5.25" are not, and IMHO should be archived. Later 9826s and 9836s will start fro mexternal drives (so that you can cable up a 9122 and boot from 3.5" disks), but early ones (BOOTROM 2.0 and earlier) will only boot from the intenral 5.25" drive. Peopl with such machines have problems finding boot media. > 6. A collection of 7470 and 7475 plotters most of which are working. I assume all HPIB interfaced? > 7. A collection of various Thinkjet printers and other HP printers, I would be interested to know what 'other' printers you have... > 8. Various HPIB cables > 9. IEM Fortran77 compiler and manuals. > Several 9122 3.25 disk drives > > I have been using these machines for 25 years and have recently > changed to Windows based systems. I do not have the heart just to > throw these items You know, I consider that to be a downgrade :-) > away so please let me know if you need further details or have any > interest in these items. > > Marek Pawlik -tony ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 7 18:25:40 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 17:25:40 -0700 Subject: Lifting heavy rack-mount gear (was Re: PDP-8/e rack questions) In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 07 Jan 2009 08:38:27 -0800. Message-ID: In article , Ian King writes: > [acquiring an 11/34] (plus a dozen terminals and a boatload of > documentation) [...] OK, I gotta ask, what kind of terminals? :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 7 18:27:07 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 17:27:07 -0700 Subject: Lifting heavy rack-mount gear (was Re: PDP-8/e rack questions) In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 07 Jan 2009 12:19:32 -0500. Message-ID: In article , "William Donzelli" writes: > The basic rule of thumb is not to be cheap with rental trucks. Pretty > much avoid all of the consumer grade deals (Uhaul, Enterprise, etc.) > and go straight for the commercial deals. [...] > I use Ryder Commercial Services, and have been very pleased. I have used Penske to move a bunch of SGI gear from St. Louis to Salt Lake City and was very pleased. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 7 18:29:58 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 17:29:58 -0700 Subject: SGI Visualisation Systems... Good for Maya and what else? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 07 Jan 2009 15:02:49 -0600. Message-ID: In article , JP Hindin writes: > I'm unsure where you're at - but I picked all of mine up from the Boeing > surplus in Missouri. They're selling them cheaper than dirt... (how about > a pallet of four Onyx2 desksides for $25? Or an Origin3000 for $100?) That's where I got mine too :-). The guy from Boeing was very helpful during loadout, too. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 7 18:35:51 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 17:35:51 -0700 Subject: SGI Visualisation Systems... Good for Maya and what else? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 07 Jan 2009 14:02:30 -0600. Message-ID: In article , JP Hindin writes: > I was asked recently what my Onyx rack was good for. And it occurred to me > beyond the easy answer of "running Maya"... I wasn't really sure. So, if > you used one of these bigger machines in production (particularly the > Onyx, Onyx2, etc graphics "Visualisation" systems)... I'd sure love to > know what -you- used it for. The University of Utah was using these until recently for high-end visualization. Boeing most likely used them for flight simulator type uses like the F-15 built by McDonnell Douglasi (Boeing absorbed them in 1997). SGI machines still beat out PCs on I/O bandwidth and some other qualities, so these large O2K or O3K machines are not without current commercial users. However, PCs and the Cell broadband engine are giving them a run for their money and its much more cost effective to use more compact equipment for these things. Only certain applications where the I/O and timing guarantees are important make sense for the big SGI iron anymore. Of course, SGI has completely abandoned that market anyway, so you'd be using these machines in 'legacy' mode these days and preparing some sort of replacement setup for when they die. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From drb at msu.edu Wed Jan 7 20:06:43 2009 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 21:06:43 -0500 Subject: IOB6120 Message-ID: <200901080206.n0826hb2026146@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Recent discussion of the SBC6120 and the IOB6120 reminded me that I've been wanting an IOB6120, so I spent a little time looking into having boards fabbed. I talked to Jim Kearney, who said he has no objections. It looks like 25 pre-sold boards at $28 is a workable price. Though less likely, 50 boards pre-sold would be make it $16. Issues: I'm not currently able to front the cost, so it would have to be a pre-pay deal. I'm willing to do the footwork to order boards, but I'm not ready to tackle kitting full parts sets. J.C. Wren said he believes that at one point there may have been issues sourcing flash chips. If original or compatible parts are no longer available, then there's no point. It'll take me approximately a dozen round-tuits to check all of these. Perhaps someone else is intimately familiar with the parts and could do it, or we could split them up among a group and each check a handful? According to Jim, this board is a non-trivial build. I think I can probably pull it off, but I'm not about to start building 25 of them for others. This may limit the number of folks interested in buying. So: Discussion of the above issues (or others)? How many would buy IOB6120 boards (I'll try to keep score)? Cheers, De From sethm at loomcom.com Wed Jan 7 20:38:31 2009 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 18:38:31 -0800 Subject: IOB6120 In-Reply-To: <200901080206.n0826hb2026146@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <200901080206.n0826hb2026146@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 6:06 PM, Dennis Boone wrote: > Recent discussion of the SBC6120 and the IOB6120 reminded me that I've > been wanting an IOB6120, so I spent a little time looking into having > boards fabbed. I talked to Jim Kearney, who said he has no objections. [...] > Discussion of the above issues (or others)? How many would buy IOB6120 > boards (I'll try to keep score)? I'd definitely buy one, either at $16 or $28. It seems to be (a lot of) pretty straight forward surface mount soldering, so I'd have no objection to doing the assembly on mine -- that's half the fun of a kit, after all. So count me in. If the parts are not easily available, of course, that's another matter. I'd likely have to give it a pass unless I could buy it together with the hard-to-get parts. -Seth From FJGJR1 at aol.com Wed Jan 7 20:56:55 2009 From: FJGJR1 at aol.com (FJGJR1 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 21:56:55 EST Subject: more housecleaning -- floppy disk manuals Message-ID: Check current "hot thread" on _www.vintage-computer.com_ (http://www.vintage-computer.com) on disk drives starting with Tezza and his new Kaypro under the Cp/M session If you post there, there may be some who will gladly take them off of your hands and preserve them and use them. Early Kaypros of 1983-84 used Tandons. I switched to Teacs after many frustrations using such a manual to try to repair them and keep them running. I post under GADFRAN Chuck is looking for a Tandon 100-4M - I never heard of one, but you have a Tandon 100-4 manual.- see below for those reading this email Thanks for making them available for those who may need them, rather than just the trash. In a message dated 1/7/2009 4:37:57 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, frustum at pacbell.net writes: For the cost of shipping from Austin, TX. All are originals, except where noted. If any of these aren't yet scanned, I'd be happy to donate them to someone who would scan them. I'm more interested in shipping the bunch than splitting them up. SA850/851 Double Sided Diskette Storage Drive OEM Manual SA850/851 Double Sided Diskette Storage Drive Service Manual SA810/860 Single/Double Sided Half-Height Diskette Storage Drives OEM Manual (copy) SA800/801 Illustrated Parts Catalog SA800/801 Diskette Storage Drive Theory of Operations SA800/801 Diskette Storage Drive Maintenance Manual SA800/801 Diskette Storage Drive OEM Manual SA400 minifloppy Diskette Storage Drive OEM Manual SA400 minifloppy Diskette Storage Drive Service Manual Tandon OEM Operating and Service Manual TM-100-1 and -2 Disk drives 48 TPI Tandon Product Specifications Mini Double Sided Recording Flexible Disk Drive Model <<<<==== TM100-4 96 TPI DSR Tandon TM 100 DIsk Drive OPerating & Service Manual Tandon TM100-1 and TM100-2 Disk Drives 48 TPI Service Manual Tandon TM100 Disk Drive 96/100 TPI Operating & Service Manual (copy) **************New year...new news. Be the first to know what is making headlines. (http://www.aol.com/?ncid=emlcntaolcom00000026) From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Jan 7 21:05:50 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 19:05:50 -0800 Subject: Lifting heavy rack-mount gear (was Re: PDP-8/e rack questions) In-Reply-To: References: Your message of Wed, 07 Jan 2009 08:38:27 -0800. , Message-ID: A bunch of ADM-3As and a few VT-52s. Most of the latter were in various stages of decomposition; one of the few working ones went to the Wofford Witch project. (I now wish I'd kept it....) ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard [legalize at xmission.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 4:25 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Lifting heavy rack-mount gear (was Re: PDP-8/e rack questions) In article , Ian King writes: > [acquiring an 11/34] (plus a dozen terminals and a boatload of > documentation) [...] OK, I gotta ask, what kind of terminals? :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 7 22:16:51 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 20:16:51 -0800 Subject: more housecleaning -- floppy disk manuals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49650DB3.19528.792ACE7@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Jan 2009 at 21:56, FJGJR1 at aol.com wrote: > Chuck is looking for a Tandon 100-4M - I never heard of one, but you have a > Tandon 100-4 manual.- see below for those reading this email There's actually a 100-4 manual online somewhere. The -4 is 96tpi; the -4M is 100 tpi. Drives that can do 96 tpi are a dime a dozen; 100 tpi is a whole different matter--always useful to have a few extras. Was there ever a half-height 100 tpi floppy drive? I've never seen one. Cheers Chuck From FJGJR1 at aol.com Wed Jan 7 22:44:20 2009 From: FJGJR1 at aol.com (FJGJR1 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 23:44:20 EST Subject: Reply - Re: more housecleaning -- floppy disk manuals Message-ID: Thanks Chuck for the info! When I saw this post on these manuals, I thought of you. Looks like they are claimed. It is me GADFRAN from _www.vintage-computer.com_ (http://www.vintage-computer.com) . I tried to respond to your message but my system was acting up again on that site. I only have the usual Tandons for Kaypros - TM100-2 and TM100-4. Frank In a message dated 1/7/2009 11:19:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, cclist at sydex.com writes: On 7 Jan 2009 at 21:56, FJGJR1 at aol.com wrote: > Chuck is looking for a Tandon 100-4M - I never heard of one, but you have a > Tandon 100-4 manual.- see below for those reading this email There's actually a 100-4 manual online somewhere. The -4 is 96tpi; the -4M is 100 tpi. Drives that can do 96 tpi are a dime a dozen; 100 tpi is a whole different matter--always useful to have a few extras. Was there ever a half-height 100 tpi floppy drive? I've never seen one. Cheers Chuck **************New year...new news. Be the first to know what is making headlines. (http://www.aol.com/?ncid=emlcntaolcom00000026) From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Jan 7 22:54:04 2009 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 22:54:04 -0600 Subject: DEC Direct Sales Catalog Message-ID: <51ea77730901072054o4cc5c74fi5143905821fc145@mail.gmail.com> I have a copy of this book: http://flickr.com/photos/chiclassiccomp/3178202349/ It appears to be from around 1979, and is chock full of part numbers and specs for hundreds of DEC products of the time, including rack parts, documentation kits, and even the DECMat carpet :) I would really like to get this book scanned, OCR'd and available to DEC collectors. My questions are: Has this guide, or one close to it, already been scanned? How rare are these guides? Does anyone out there have one? I would have to at least remove the binding in order to scan it (and at 140 pages I'm not going to mash each half-page against the scanner glass.) I'd really hate to destroy a book like this. If I'm careful, I can drill holes in the whitespaces, razor off the edge binding, and reassemble it as ringbound. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Jan 7 23:09:20 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 21:09:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: IOB6120 In-Reply-To: <200901080206.n0826hb2026146@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <200901080206.n0826hb2026146@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Jan 2009, Dennis Boone wrote: > According to Jim, this board is a non-trivial build. I think I can > probably pull it off, but I'm not about to start building 25 of them for > others. This may limit the number of folks interested in buying. The board is indeed non-trivial. I have one with a few components installed. I gave up trying to get started on one of the higher pin-count devices. I strongly suggest that it be offered fully populated and ready to go. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 7 23:21:07 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 22:21:07 -0700 Subject: Fwd: [alt.folklore.compute...] Re: DECWriter APL Font Message-ID: This message has been forwarded from Usenet. To reply to the original author, use the email address from the forwarded message. Date: Tue, 06 Jan 2009 20:28:29 -0600 Groups: alt.folklore.computers,comp.sys.dec,comp.lang.apl From: Charles Richmond Reply: frizzle at tx.rr.com Org: Canine Computer Center Subject: Re: DECWriter APL Font Re: <54e1908d-cb50-4371-9047-0239a4b25a33 at r37g2000prr.googlegroups.c om> Id: ======== Quadibloc wrote: > On Dec 28, 5:54 am, Quadibloc wrote: > >> Before the fancy smaller Decwriter, there was a later model that still >> looked a lot like an LA36, though. > > Now I've sorted this out. The one you mentioned, the LA120 Decwriter > III, closely resembled the LA36 Decwriter II, except that it had a > modified keyboard arrangement; it was typewriter-pairing, but > {[ and }] keys replaced the {} and [] keys of the traditional > typewriter-pairing layout, following the precedent of the VT 100, > which later was also found on the IBM PC. > > The smaller one with the much nicer fonts was the Decwriter IV, or > LA38 (among other numbers...). > > While the Decwriter III had the same basic fonts as the Decwriter II, > it did have additional features such as condensed and expanded > printing, as I found out from here: > > http://vt100.net/docs/tp83/chapter14.html > I found some old papers from 30+ years ago with some APL functions printed out by an LA36 DECWriter (II?). I have posted them on a web page. I know the functions are *not* coded the best way, but I posted them as an example of the DECWriter APL font: http://www.aquaporin4.com/apl/ The noise in the background is caused by the *poor* quality paper. My college *never* intended these to be kept for 30+ years... -- +----------------------------------------------------------------+ | Charles and Francis Richmond richmond at plano dot net | +----------------------------------------------------------------+ From msw at orac.wickensonline.co.uk Wed Jan 7 08:36:04 2009 From: msw at orac.wickensonline.co.uk (msw at orac.wickensonline.co.uk) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 14:36:04 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Source for SCART connectors in US? Message-ID: <09010714360492@orac.wickensonline.co.uk> I N T E R O F F I C E M E M O R A N D U M Date: 07-Jan-2009 02:35pm GMT From: Mark Wickens MSW Dept: Software Development Tel No: 01539 446851 TO: VMSmail User SMTP%"cctalk at clas ( _"SMTP%""cctalk at classiccmp.org""" ) Subject: RE: Source for SCART connectors in US? email me: mark at wickensonline.co.uk regards, mark From charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com Wed Jan 7 18:25:01 2009 From: charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Wed, 7 Jan 2009 16:25:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Crossing compiling HP3000 MPE on a VAX was Re: got netbsd 2.0.3 to boot on 11/730 in sim In-Reply-To: <7633.1231349905@mini> Message-ID: <977744.46436.qm@web35306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi Brad! Topic drift, but your post reminded me of one of the most interesting uses for a VAX I know of. Back when HP was developing PA-RISC (mid-1980's) to replace the 16-bit stack architecture 3000 we used a VAX-750 running BSD to host a PA-RISC simulator. I was working on the MPE boot-strap code at the time and used the simulator to write in PA-RISC assembler (no HLL compiler yet) and run tests. We had one 750 for the entire MPE OS Lab, although only a few of us were using it. Not surprising that the turn-around for compiles and debugging reminded me of mainframe batch turn-arounds from school, at the end of the semester of course. Barely usable. We soon got proto-type CPUs implemented in TTL that plugged into the back-plane of a very heavily hacked Series 44 (desk form-factor 3000). That way we could have hardware'ish speed and use real peripherals. Huge improvement before we got real prototype hardware to do OS bring-up on. Of course this was all very hush-hush at the time since HP was locked in a death struggle with DEC in the mini-computer market. Would have been bad press for it to get out that HP used DEC computers to design its new 32-bit computer architecture. Cheers, Lee Courtney --- On Wed, 1/7/09, Brad Parker wrote: > From: Brad Parker > Subject: got netbsd 2.0.3 to boot on 11/730 in sim > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Wednesday, January 7, 2009, 9:38 AM > The vax unix nerds on the list might find this mildly > interesting: > > I hacked a copy of simh vax780 to look like a vax 11/730. > I made a > modified version of the standalone netbsd "boot" > program which does nfs > loads from a deuna (it will do copy's too, which is > handy at times) > > With that I finished debugging netbsd 2.0.3 on the 730. > I've gotten it > to boot to a shell prompt on a simh 11/730 with 4mb of > memory using an > nfs root. woo hoo! > > So, next I'll make a disk image and put my unibus scsi > card in my real > 730 and debug that. With any luck it will just work. > > Once it's going on real hardware I'll get it going > on the latest netbsd > (4.0?) and get a patch back to the netbsd/vax maintainer. > > [for those who care, I use a linux program which simulates > the tu58 to > boot my 730. I made a boot tape image with putr which > contains the > netbsd boot program (as well as the other files needed to > load > microcode, etc). I plan to spend some time and make a > linux program > which will put together valid tu58 tape images, just to > make my life > easier, since putr requires DOS.] > > I have to give the netbsd folks a lot of credit. Their > posix build > system is very handy. But note that releases before 2.0.3 > will *NOT* > build on a posix machine - they require native netbsd to > build cleanly. > > I've always had a soft spot for the 730; maybe because > the 780 was > just too damn big! :-) > > -brad From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Thu Jan 8 01:19:34 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 23:19:34 -0800 Subject: Mac 400k floppy drive alignment? In-Reply-To: References: <49611D16.9040802@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4965A906.2020005@mail.msu.edu> dwight elvey wrote: >> From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu >> >> Got myself an ancient external 400k mac floppy drive on the cheap that >> I'd like to use on my 128k mac -- after cleaning out the old dried >> lubricant and getting the drive mechanism running again, the drive works >> but will only read/write disks that it has formatted, which leads me to >> believe that the drive is out of alignment. How is alignment corrected >> on these drives? >> >> Thanks! >> Josh >> > > Hi > Like any other drive, you need an alignment disk for a 400k drive. > That would be a tough one. > You can always just experiment some. Before moving the stepper, > make sure the track zero is in the right place. After a recal, > measure the distance the head is from the spindle. It should be > close to the same for both drives. > If the track zero is right, try the stepper next. > Dwight > Thanks for the advice. After a few hours' fiddling I've got the drive reading/writing reliably. Now to find some 400k images of mac software that'll run on a 128k :). Thanks! Josh From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Thu Jan 8 01:33:39 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 07 Jan 2009 23:33:39 -0800 Subject: Membrane keyboard connector repair advice? (Osborne 1) Message-ID: <4965AC53.7040506@mail.msu.edu> Yet another small repair question -- Picked up an Osborne 1 with a non-functional keyboard. Upon opening it, I found that one of the plastic/membrane keyboard ribbon connectors had cracked partially through near where it plugs into the PCB. Since these ribbons are actually part of the membrane of the keyboard I can't just replace the cracked ribbon -- so the only option appears to be to re-cut the end of the ribbon cable and expose a bit of the conductive material. What's the recommended means to expose the conductive stripes at the end? I've tried gently scraping with the tip of an x-acto knife but it either does nothing or takes everything off the end :). Thanks! Josh From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Jan 8 02:31:30 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 08:31:30 +0000 Subject: Source for SCART connectors in US? In-Reply-To: <09010714360492@orac.wickensonline.co.uk> References: <09010714360492@orac.wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: <1231403490.5820.102.camel@elric> On Wed, 2009-01-07 at 14:36 +0000, msw at orac.wickensonline.co.uk wrote: > I N T E R O F F I C E M E M O R A N D U M Wow, that's obnoxious. Whose bright idea was it to tack on a huge signature block at the *top* of the email? Gordon From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Thu Jan 8 03:58:17 2009 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 09:58:17 +0000 Subject: DEC Direct Sales Catalog In-Reply-To: <51ea77730901072054o4cc5c74fi5143905821fc145@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730901072054o4cc5c74fi5143905821fc145@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: there are ways without destroying to scan books the pro machines use a camera people should NOT cut spines off I see too much of this distructive behaviour on this list here is a home brew one http://uk.gizmodo.com/2006/02/23/homemade_book_scanner.html Dave Caroline From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Thu Jan 8 04:03:57 2009 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 10:03:57 +0000 Subject: DEC Direct Sales Catalog In-Reply-To: <51ea77730901072054o4cc5c74fi5143905821fc145@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730901072054o4cc5c74fi5143905821fc145@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: and look at the video of this one http://gadgets.boingboing.net/2008/04/24/250k-book-scanner-sw.html not cheap but the idea could be used on a home brew, cnc control software could be EMC2 I would love to make one as I have a collection of manuals to scan Dave Caroline (archivist) From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Jan 8 06:33:45 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 07:33:45 -0500 Subject: What kind of IC is this In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20081231115327.074af3a0@mail.threedee.com> References: <20081230193428.69f05be5.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <2C535D4C-0F9D-4FDC-BEAB-283BE688F3D7@neurotica.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20081231115327.074af3a0@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: <200901080733.46180.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 31 December 2008 12:54:53 pm John Foust wrote: > At 10:22 AM 12/31/2008, Dave McGuire wrote: > >On Dec 30, 2008, at 6:14 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote: > >>That said, Widlarization is a great way to deal with parts like > >>that. :) > > > > YAY!! Someone else knows of Widlarization! I sure wish I > >could've met him. > > http://www.national.com/rap/Story/widlar.html > > "We still have a sign around our lab, "This is not a black-smith shop." But > there were times when Bob would discover he had wasted a day or two, just > because one bad part had screwed up his circuit. He would bring this bad > part -- a capacitor, a pot, a transistor, an IC, or whatever -- over to > the vise and lay it on the anvil part. Then he would calmly, methodically > beat it with a hammer until the smallest remaining part was > indistinguishable from the dust on the floor. Then he would go back to work > and get the right answer. He explained that it makes you feel much better > if you do this, and, you know that bad part will never come around again > and goof you up. He was right. And I recommend that you join me in doing > this "Widlarizing" when a bad component fools you. You will feel a lot > better." > > - John "One of the celebrated things Widlar did was to put a "hassler" in his office.2 When a person came in to his office and spoke loudly, this circuit would detect the audio, convert the audio to a very high audio frequency, and play back this converted sound. The louder you talked, the lower the pitch would come down into the audio spectrum, and the louder it would play. So if you really hollered, it would make sort of a ringing in your ears. Of course, if you noticed this "ringing" in your ears, and stopped for a while to listen, the "hassler" circuitwould shut up. He gradually got people to stop yelling at him. I mean, Bob really was almost always a soft-spoken person. He didn't have to yell or shout to get his message across. When he did speak, and softly at that, people would soon realize that it was a good idea to listen to him." I *want* one of these...! -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From bob at jfcl.com Thu Jan 8 09:25:44 2009 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 07:25:44 -0800 Subject: KD-11F (11/03) in a BA11-N?? Message-ID: <00df01c971a5$5fcbe3f0$1f63abd0$@com> > Pete Turnbull (pete at dunnington.plus.com) wrote: > a 64KB (32KW) MSV11-D with a base address of 000000(8) responds to all >addresses from 000000(8) to 177777(8). It has a jumper to disable the >top page. Maybe you need to do that? It's certainly possible that could be a problem, but I've been reading the MSV11-D user's manual (it's on vt100.net) and it doesn't have a jumper to disable the top page. Actually what it has is a jumper to _enable_ the bottom 2K of the I/O page, so you can have a tiny bit of extra RAM in systems without many I/O devices. The MSV11 manual says only "factory configured modules will not respond to bank 7 addresses..." and it then goes on to say how you can enable the lower 2K of bank 7 with the aforementioned jumper, but it's quiet about how it decides what a bank 7 address is (i.e. does it monitor BBS7 or the address bits?). The only other jumpers on the MSV11-D are for battery backup and to select the starting address. Thanks for the suggestions, but I'm afraid I'm still puzzled... Bob From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Jan 8 09:40:53 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 09:40:53 -0600 Subject: DEC Direct Sales Catalog In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730901072054o4cc5c74fi5143905821fc145@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49661E85.7030108@pacbell.net> Dave Caroline wrote: > there are ways without destroying to scan books the pro machines use a > camera people should NOT cut spines off > I see too much of this distructive behaviour on this list You have to break an egg to make an omelet. Up front, I apologize for being bristly. Putting "NOT" in caps just set me off. Have you ever availed yourself of any of the docs on bitsavers or its mirrors? Guess how large that collection would be if Al had to spend $35K for a book scanner, or had to flip pages by hand, or had to build an army of tinker-toy book scanners (like the one you mention next) in order to get throughput? I have scanned only a tiny fraction of the number of pages Al has, and it got really tiring flipping a page, orienting it on the flatbed, waiting for the scan, doing the next. I did well over a thousand pages that way before getting pragmatic about things. If the doc is spiral bound (or similar) or stapled, I'll work the staples out or the binding, scan them, then put the staple or spiral binding back in. If the doc is especially valuable, then I'll manually page flip. But otherwise, I have only the slightest twinge liberating the pages. Some manuals have three hole punches despite being bound; with an exacto knife you can cut close enough to the spine that the loose pages fit into a three ring binder. Otherwise I use a fat clip (I don't know the real name) to hold them together when I'm done. I try to scan only things which aren't available, so either the information stays nicely bound on aging paper on my shelf where only I can use it, or the spine gets removed and everybody can use the information. *Far* more information will be lost to entropy due to the existing copies rotting in peoples closets and garages than will be captured through semi-destructive scanning. If you don't want me to cut spines off of manuals, then you can prevent it -- scan it before I do. Point me at your repository of scanned work and I will promise to check there before I do any more scanning. Hurry, though, because I have four more manuals that I want to scan this weekend. In short, most of the time, the information is much more valuable than the physical manifestation of it in an individual book. > here is a home brew one > http://uk.gizmodo.com/2006/02/23/homemade_book_scanner.html I'd like to see the quality of the output -- the book isn't pressed flat, which in my experience leads to curved text in the center of the book and/or shadowing. The book in the demo shots is also midway through the book and lays relatively flat, unlike many manuals and books I have. I'd like to see the scanner scan the first few or last few pages of the book. I also wonder what is the mean number of pages between failures. Just tighten up the legos a bit; just add or maybe remove a little more counterweight and see if it works better. Bah. In the tiny wmv movie, I would guess it is at least 60 seconds per page. For a decent scanner with ADF, 30 ppm is nothing special. No, this isn't practical other than as a rickety hack. Did you watch the video of his camera-based version? It uses the same paper turning technology as the scanner one, but the video quality showing its operation is much clearer. Watch it and you'll get a sense of how practical this thing is: http://www.geocities.jp/takascience/lego/pic/abs2.wmv If you find a book scanner that is under $1000 and works reliably, has decent quality, and doesn't require me to build it myself, let me know. From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Thu Jan 8 09:53:37 2009 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 15:53:37 +0000 Subject: DEC Direct Sales Catalog In-Reply-To: <49661E85.7030108@pacbell.net> References: <51ea77730901072054o4cc5c74fi5143905821fc145@mail.gmail.com> <49661E85.7030108@pacbell.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 3:40 PM, Jim Battle wrote: > You have to break an egg to make an omelet. only for omletes not for books, some do have a value in complete condition I have the catalogue online and respond to reques the correct data entry of the catalogue takes a long time and should predate mass scanning I love the online stuff I want more Dave Caroline (archivist) From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jan 8 09:56:19 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 10:56:19 -0500 Subject: DEC Direct Sales Catalog In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730901072054o4cc5c74fi5143905821fc145@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > there are ways without destroying to scan books the pro machines use a > camera people should NOT cut spines off > I see too much of this distructive behaviour on this list Rebinding softcover books is actually pretty easy, if you know what you are doing, and have the right tools and materials. Many printshops can do it. I have done it myself. -- Will From toby at coreware.co.uk Thu Jan 8 10:14:09 2009 From: toby at coreware.co.uk (Tobias Russell) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 16:14:09 +0000 Subject: Failed bit on 11/05 core memory Message-ID: <1231431249.1216.35.camel@spasmo> Alas having got my 11/05 working, its developed a problem. Bit 5 on the lower 8KW of memory (it has two sets of G110/G231/H214 8KW cores) has failed and is always set to 0 Does this indicate a failure in the X/Y drivers? I have a spare set of G110/G231 cards, so I'm guessing swapping out the failed card will provide me with an immediate fix, although I would like to get the existing card repaired. How is the base address of core memory set? Are there jumpers on the boards or is it position in the backplane that determines its location? Thanks, Toby -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From fryers at gmail.com Thu Jan 8 10:15:12 2009 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 16:15:12 +0000 Subject: DEC Direct Sales Catalog In-Reply-To: <49661E85.7030108@pacbell.net> References: <51ea77730901072054o4cc5c74fi5143905821fc145@mail.gmail.com> <49661E85.7030108@pacbell.net> Message-ID: All, I tend to agree with Jim here on the practicalities of transferring documents from paper to an electronic form. Some assessment and decision to alter the original condition of the paper version probably needs to be made dependent on the value of the paper version against the value of the information represented on the paper. And if the original paper was that valuable, the investment in acid free paper, climate controlled conditions etc to preserve the original would also be under discussion. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jan 8 10:15:33 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 11:15:33 -0500 Subject: IOB6120 In-Reply-To: <200901080206.n0826hb2026146@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <200901080206.n0826hb2026146@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 7, 2009, at 9:06 PM, Dennis Boone wrote: > Recent discussion of the SBC6120 and the IOB6120 reminded me that I've > been wanting an IOB6120, so I spent a little time looking into having > boards fabbed. I talked to Jim Kearney, who said he has no > objections. > > It looks like 25 pre-sold boards at $28 is a workable price. Though > less likely, 50 boards pre-sold would be make it $16. > > Issues: > > I'm not currently able to front the cost, so it would have to be a > pre-pay deal. > > I'm willing to do the footwork to order boards, but I'm not ready to > tackle kitting full parts sets. > > J.C. Wren said he believes that at one point there may have been > issues > sourcing flash chips. If original or compatible parts are no longer > available, then there's no point. It'll take me approximately a dozen > round-tuits to check all of these. Perhaps someone else is intimately > familiar with the parts and could do it, or we could split them up > among > a group and each check a handful? > > According to Jim, this board is a non-trivial build. I think I can > probably pull it off, but I'm not about to start building 25 of > them for > others. This may limit the number of folks interested in buying. > > So: > > Discussion of the above issues (or others)? How many would buy > IOB6120 > boards (I'll try to keep score)? Please put me down for one. I do fine-pitch SMT soldering pretty much every day; I can help with assembly. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Thu Jan 8 10:25:45 2009 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 16:25:45 +0000 Subject: DEC Direct Sales Catalog In-Reply-To: <49661E85.7030108@pacbell.net> References: <51ea77730901072054o4cc5c74fi5143905821fc145@mail.gmail.com> <49661E85.7030108@pacbell.net> Message-ID: oops forgot the url http://www.archivist.info/collection/ some search terms im gets all instruction manuals is gets all instruction and service bk books 005 is dewey for computing my main collection is electronics and test equipment so computing is buried a bit Dave Caroline From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Jan 8 10:51:04 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 10:51:04 -0600 Subject: DEC Direct Sales Catalog In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730901072054o4cc5c74fi5143905821fc145@mail.gmail.com> <49661E85.7030108@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <49662EF8.7080109@pacbell.net> Dave Caroline wrote: > oops forgot the url > > http://www.archivist.info/collection/ > some search terms > im gets all instruction manuals > is gets all instruction and service > bk books > 005 is dewey for computing > my main collection is electronics and test equipment so computing is > buried a bit > > Dave Caroline > Dave, that is impressive -- 1123 books, far more than I have scanned. How do *you* scan them? If you have a lego book scanner and it works, then I take back all of my criticisms of it. But at this point, it seems to incredibly that it would work for one book, much less 1123 books. Are you very patient, or do you have a real book scanner? From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Jan 8 10:54:38 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 16:54:38 +0000 Subject: What kind of IC is this In-Reply-To: <200901080733.46180.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <20081230193428.69f05be5.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <2C535D4C-0F9D-4FDC-BEAB-283BE688F3D7@neurotica.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20081231115327.074af3a0@mail.threedee.com> <200901080733.46180.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <49662FCE.4060307@philpem.me.uk> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > "One of the celebrated things Widlar did was to put a "hassler" in his > office.2 When a person came in to his office and spoke loudly, this circuit > would detect the audio, convert the audio to a very high audio frequency, and > play back this converted sound. [snip] > I *want* one of these...! It was published in Electronic Design magazine: "What's All This Hassler Stuff, Anyhow?" (Pease Porridge) Pease, Bob Electronic Design, May 15, 1995 I've got a (signed!) copy of the article here. Five op-amps (1x LMC6484, LM837 or similar + 1x LM301A), two transistors (jellybeans), a handful of Rs and Cs, half a dozen 1N914 diodes, a tweeter (Radioshack 40-1383 or similar -- 2x6" piezo horn tweeter) and a microphone (Radioshack 270-090 or similar -- basically a cheap PCB-mount electret element). -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Jan 8 11:22:47 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 11:22:47 -0600 Subject: book scanning (was: DEC Direct Sales Catalog) In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730901072054o4cc5c74fi5143905821fc145@mail.gmail.com> <49661E85.7030108@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <49663667.2060404@pacbell.net> Dave Caroline wrote: > On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 3:40 PM, Jim Battle wrote: >> You have to break an egg to make an omelet. > only for omletes > not for books, some do have a value in complete condition I agree certain documents should not be destroyed; I have scanned some books one page at a time myself. However, that doesn't usually apply -- most manuals aren't *that* rare. Scanning the book and making it available also has value, and often more than the value of the complete, intact book. Personally I'm much less worried about the loss of value than I am about copyright issues. There are things I have scanned which I haven't put online. I could certainly work harder to acquire permission to post what I do. 90% of my scanning doesn't have such approval, although I'm fairly comfortable that the copyright holder isn't concerned. (How do I know the latter? I've been contacted by some of the principals of Processor Technology who said: "nice work", but I don't have a piece of paper with a lawyers signature on it. Getronics bought up Wang a decade ago, and while they haven't given me any legal document, the fact that they shipped me a pallet of documents, floppies, and equipment for the cost of shipping after seeing my website should count for something.) > I have the catalogue online and respond to reques > the correct data entry of the catalogue takes a long time and should > predate mass scanning > I love the online stuff I want more Dave, not to be snippy, but I am not sure where the punctuation goes above. Let me guess. > I have the catalogue online and respond to requests. > The correct data entry of the catalogue takes a long time and should > predate mass scanning. > I love the online stuff. I want more. Did I get it right? Why should the catalog predate the scanning? It isn't obvious to me. At what point do you decide your catalog is done and start scanning then? Personally, I scan when I have something to scan and I have the time. If I waited for the "right" time nothing would ever be scanned. Some of my docs: http://www.sol20.org/manuals.html http://www.sol20.org/articles.html http://www.wang2200.org/docs.html http://www.thebattles.net/bondwell/bondwell.html http://www.thebattles.net/sage/sage.html http://www.thebattles.net/oddments/oddments.html http://www.thebattles.net/wang/3300.html I have a couple more sites with corresponding documents, but they aren't online yet. From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Jan 8 11:26:56 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 11:26:56 -0600 Subject: What kind of IC is this In-Reply-To: <49662FCE.4060307@philpem.me.uk> References: <20081230193428.69f05be5.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <2C535D4C-0F9D-4FDC-BEAB-283BE688F3D7@neurotica.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20081231115327.074af3a0@mail.threedee.com> <200901080733.46180.rtellason@verizon.net> <49662FCE.4060307@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <49663760.3060105@pacbell.net> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> "One of the celebrated things Widlar did was to put a "hassler" in his >> office.2 When a person came in to his office and spoke loudly, this >> circuit would detect the audio, convert the audio to a very high audio >> frequency, and play back this converted sound. > [snip] >> I *want* one of these...! > > It was published in Electronic Design magazine: > > "What's All This Hassler Stuff, Anyhow?" (Pease Porridge) > Pease, Bob > Electronic Design, May 15, 1995 > > I've got a (signed!) copy of the article here. Five op-amps (1x LMC6484, > LM837 or similar + 1x LM301A), two transistors (jellybeans), a handful > of Rs and Cs, half a dozen 1N914 diodes, a tweeter (Radioshack 40-1383 > or similar -- 2x6" piezo horn tweeter) and a microphone (Radioshack > 270-090 or similar -- basically a cheap PCB-mount electret element). http://electronicdesign.com/Globals/PlanetEE/Content/3080.html From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Thu Jan 8 11:34:41 2009 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 17:34:41 +0000 Subject: book scanning (was: DEC Direct Sales Catalog) In-Reply-To: <49663667.2060404@pacbell.net> References: <51ea77730901072054o4cc5c74fi5143905821fc145@mail.gmail.com> <49661E85.7030108@pacbell.net> <49663667.2060404@pacbell.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 5:22 PM, Jim Battle wrote: > Why should the catalog predate the scanning? It isn't obvious to me. At > what point do you decide your catalog is done and start scanning then? Never ending job Also there is no need to scan the unrequested unsearched for documents. I also catalogue so I can find them. re legal a large chunk came from a manual copying business and in that there is permission for one manufacturer Philips for out of production equipment, so I'm safe there at least. Also thats another reason for on request, its less obvious what gets copied or not. Dave Caroline From RichA at vulcan.com Thu Jan 8 12:00:44 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 10:00:44 -0800 Subject: HP's use of DEC equipment RE: Crossing compiling HP3000 MPE on a VAX In-Reply-To: <977744.46436.qm@web35306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <7633.1231349905@mini> <977744.46436.qm@web35306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: From: Lee Courtney Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 4:25 PM > Topic drift, but your post reminded me of one of the most interesting uses > for a VAX I know of. > Back when HP was developing PA-RISC (mid-1980's) to replace the 16-bit stack > architecture 3000 we used a VAX-750 running BSD to host a PA-RISC simulator. [big snip ] > Of course this was all very hush-hush at the time since HP was locked in a > death struggle with DEC in the mini-computer market. Would have been bad > press for it to get out that HP used DEC computers to design its new 32-bit > computer architecture. Hi, Lee, [I didn't know you had worked for HP. You may have known one of my student friends from Stanford who worked on HP-UX for PA-RISC after he graduated, but that's a topic for another time.] This was not the first time, or first DEC architecture, that HP used in product development. Several of the engineers at XKL were former DEC-20 users while employed at HP, which used the SUDS CAD package (as did cisco Systems, where many of them went from HP). Some of my old friends were the system managers for those machines. Rich Alderson Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell From RichA at vulcan.com Thu Jan 8 12:07:44 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 10:07:44 -0800 Subject: Mac 400k floppy drive alignment? In-Reply-To: <4965A906.2020005@mail.msu.edu> References: <49611D16.9040802@mail.msu.edu> <4965A906.2020005@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: From: Josh Dersch Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 11:20 PM > Thanks for the advice. After a few hours' fiddling I've got the drive > reading/writing reliably. Now to find some 400k images of mac software > that'll run on a 128k :). One of these days one of my tuits will be other than rhomboidal, and I'll put System 7.5 on the 6100 in my storage locker (since that's the last version of Mac OS that will deal with 400K disks) to run disk copy and create those images. I still have the original MacWrite and MacPaint floppies that came with my 128K, along with a lot of other good stuff (like the Banana PC 6000 Jr. emulator for the Finder, and a CLI that would only run on a 68000). Rich Alderson Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Thu Jan 8 12:40:41 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 13:40:41 -0500 Subject: DEC Direct Sales Catalog References: <51ea77730901072054o4cc5c74fi5143905821fc145@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <18790.18601.601907.258998@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> >>>>> "William" == William Donzelli writes: >> there are ways without destroying to scan books the pro machines >> use a camera people should NOT cut spines off I see too much of >> this distructive behaviour on this list William> Rebinding softcover books is actually pretty easy, if you William> know what you are doing, and have the right tools and William> materials. Many printshops can do it. Actually, the same is true for hardcovers; it may even be easier because the main tools are thread and needle. I have a book about home bookbinding; forgot author/publisher but from what I remember it's British -- this one I believe: http://www.amazon.com/Basic-Bookbinding-W-Lewis/dp/0486201694 paul From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Thu Jan 8 12:54:25 2009 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 18:54:25 +0000 Subject: DEC Direct Sales Catalog In-Reply-To: <49662EF8.7080109@pacbell.net> References: <51ea77730901072054o4cc5c74fi5143905821fc145@mail.gmail.com> <49661E85.7030108@pacbell.net> <49662EF8.7080109@pacbell.net> Message-ID: That home scanner is not mine my book scanning is well behind 1100, but slide scanning is well advanced cataloguing has reached 15k items so at least finding is possible (if it hasnt got moved in a rush at some time and not put back). Some you wont fine on the net as I have just not copied across yet. Items like microfilm of van drivers invoices to butchers are an interesting social history but its 800 scans I will never do unless I get paid or begged and takes little space. search Robirch Dave Caroline From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Jan 8 13:01:35 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 17:01:35 -0200 Subject: book scanning (was: DEC Direct Sales Catalog) References: <51ea77730901072054o4cc5c74fi5143905821fc145@mail.gmail.com> <49661E85.7030108@pacbell.net> <49663667.2060404@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <159c01c971c3$a6a98a20$46fea8c0@DeskJara> > Personally, I scan when I have something to scan and I have the time. > If I waited for the "right" time nothing would ever be scanned. I don't have free time to scanning. It is TOO MUCH time consuming. And, without ADF (accept donations :D) it is a pain in that place the sun doesn't shine to scan. BUT I use a lot of online documents, so I give back something to the comunity. When I have something that rare, I do scan that. A pain there, you see... Alexandre :) From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Jan 8 13:06:21 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 11:06:21 -0800 Subject: Failed bit on 11/05 core memory References: <1231431249.1216.35.camel@spasmo> Message-ID: <49664EAD.BB843518@cs.ubc.ca> Tobias Russell wrote: > > Alas having got my 11/05 working, its developed a problem. Bit 5 on the > lower 8KW of memory (it has two sets of G110/G231/H214 8KW cores) has > failed and is always set to 0 > > Does this indicate a failure in the X/Y drivers? An X/Y driver failure will typically manifest as a failure of a range in the address space - or more specifically holes throughout the address space corresponding to the matrix size. The failure of a particular bit in the word-width suggests a problem in either the sense or inhibit circuitry of that bit. On the whole, an inhibit driver is more likely to fail than a sense amp, as the inhibit drivers are relatively high-power and may have heat-dissipation issues. You may be able to discern between a sense amp failure and inhibit driver failure by examining some memory locations which you know contained 'data' and have not been accessed since the failure. If you can scan through those locations and find that the bit in question shows variation (both 1's and 0's) on the first examination, but then return all 1's or all 0's on any subsequent examinations through the range, then it suggests the sense circuitry is working but the inhibit ciruitry is failing to restore the bit after the destructive read. (Of course, if the machine did a full memory test/scan at power-up the above is not going to help.) (If it might help, see http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/coremem/index.html for (my own) treatise on the organisation and principles of operation of core memory.) > I have a spare set of G110/G231 cards, so I'm guessing swapping out the > failed card will provide me with an immediate fix, although I would like > to get the existing card repaired. > > How is the base address of core memory set? Are there jumpers on the > boards or is it position in the backplane that determines its location? From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 8 12:45:14 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 18:45:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP9836 hardware. software and manuals availability In-Reply-To: <006401c9711b$de4ec650$ee04010a@dis754cbb81360> from "a.carlini" at Jan 7, 9 11:01:20 pm Message-ID: > > I sent this yesterday offlist, but now I've had a delivery failure and > no reply. I sent my replies both to the list and to what appeared to be the sender's address (I suspect he's not on the list) and to date have heard nothing more... > > So I'm certainly interested. I don't think I can find a use (or room) > for five > systems, but I'd be happy to collect and pass this stuff on (and scan > the docs > if they've not already been scanned). I believe the manuals are available from http://www.hpmuseum.net/ . As I mentuioned, I would quite like a set of original manuals simply because I am still doing things with these machines and it's a right pain (read : next to impossible) for me to download and print anything that large. > 5 HP9836s is probably too much for me to digest, but I could collect > them and then pass them on to others. I'd quite like to hang on to one > (Tony Duell has convinced me of that). They are interesting machines.... Alsa we don't know the specification yet (even if they're -A (monochrome) or -C (colour) machines. I really can't accomodate any more of these machines, but would be interested in unusual add-ons that I've not seen so as to produce unofficial repair information for them (which I'll then share of course). And I would be very happy to help in getting all the machines running again. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 8 12:48:32 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 18:48:32 +0000 (GMT) Subject: more housecleaning -- floppy disk manuals In-Reply-To: <49650DB3.19528.792ACE7@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 7, 9 08:16:51 pm Message-ID: > Was there ever a half-height 100 tpi floppy drive? I've never seen > one. I think there must have been. Didn;t the Commodore 8050 use 100tpi drives? In which case the 8250LP ('Low Profile') and I guess the PET 8296D (Intenral drives, basically an 8296 and 8250LP built into one case) must have used half-height 100tpi drives. -tony From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Jan 8 13:37:01 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 13:37:01 -0600 Subject: Free Wang 2200 CS equipment near Detroit, Michigan Message-ID: <496655DD.3030507@pacbell.net> I was contacted by Mr. Mike Sharl. He has a client that needs to dispose of some functioning Wang equipment, namely: > The Wang CS and SDS drive and 2236 monitors, cables, etc > at my client's office will be tossed by mid January. The Wang CS was a late 80s incarnation of the 2200 MVP. The MVP is a microcoded machine that runs the Wang BASIC-2 dialect. It is also a timeshared system, as you can connect up to 16 terminals (that is what the 2236 thing is -- intelligent terminals with 8080s in them). The SDS drive is a 3rd party hard disk made by Southern Data Systems. I would suspect a cache of manuals and software come with it. It is located in Southfield, Michigan. The owner doesn't want any cash, just wants it gone as they are moving locations. If nobody claims it in the next few weeks, it will be turned back into sand. Email me and I'll connect you with Mike. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 8 13:17:37 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 19:17:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Failed bit on 11/05 core memory In-Reply-To: <1231431249.1216.35.camel@spasmo> from "Tobias Russell" at Jan 8, 9 04:14:09 pm Message-ID: > > Alas having got my 11/05 working, its developed a problem. Bit 5 on the > lower 8KW of memory (it has two sets of G110/G231/H214 8KW cores) has > failed and is always set to 0 > > Does this indicate a failure in the X/Y drivers? Given that it's only kalf of the memory, I think it's safe to say it's a problem with the memroy board set and not the CPU or backplane. But I don't think it#'s the X/Y drivers which are the addressing circuits. More likely to be a problem with the snese/inhibit circuitry. I've not looked at hte printset for _years_, but I suspect you have 16 indentical sense/inibit cirucuits (one for each bit) whivh gives you something to compare signals with. > How is the base address of core memory set? Are there jumpers on the > boards or is it position in the backplane that determines its location? DEC never used 'geogrphical addressing' (depending on slot position) on the Unibus (or for that matter Omnibus or Qbus). The address will be set by jumpers on the PCB (although I don't know which of the PCBs in the memroy board set contains the addressing jumpers). -tony From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jan 8 13:37:36 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 14:37:36 -0500 Subject: DEC Direct Sales Catalog In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730901072054o4cc5c74fi5143905821fc145@mail.gmail.com> <49661E85.7030108@pacbell.net> <49662EF8.7080109@pacbell.net> Message-ID: > That home scanner is not mine my book scanning is well behind 1100, > but slide scanning is well advanced > cataloguing has reached 15k items so at least finding is possible (if > it hasnt got moved in a rush at some time and not put back). Some you > wont fine on the net as I have just not copied across yet. > > Items like microfilm of van drivers invoices to butchers are an > interesting social history but its 800 scans I will never do unless I > get paid or begged and takes little space. search Robirch Punctuation. Periods, commas, that sort of stuff. They are actually useful. Seriously, your posts are not the easiest things to read. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jan 8 13:41:41 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 14:41:41 -0500 Subject: IBM 3532 Message-ID: Does anyone know what the proper drive (as in down to an IBM FRU number) the 3532-023 SCSI tape box wants? It is a 2.3G 8mm of some sort. -- Will From bryan.pope at comcast.net Thu Jan 8 13:42:26 2009 From: bryan.pope at comcast.net (Bryan Pope) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 14:42:26 -0500 Subject: more housecleaning -- floppy disk manuals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49665722.6030305@comcast.net> Tony Duell wrote: >> Was there ever a half-height 100 tpi floppy drive? I've never seen >> one. >> > > I think there must have been. Didn;t the Commodore 8050 use 100tpi > drives? In which case the 8250LP ('Low Profile') and I guess the PET > 8296D (Intenral drives, basically an 8296 and 8250LP built into one case) > must have used half-height 100tpi drives. > You are correct. The 8050 is single sided and the 8250 is double-sided. Also there is the SFD-1001 which is just like an 8250 but half the height. Cheers, Bryan From nico at farumdata.dk Thu Jan 8 13:49:44 2009 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 20:49:44 +0100 Subject: IBM 3532 References: Message-ID: > Does anyone know what the proper drive (as in down to an IBM FRU > number) the 3532-023 SCSI tape box wants? It is a 2.3G 8mm of some > sort. > I dont know the 3532, but IBM did use Exabytes 8200 and 8500 in the AS/400 series. If the drive is normal height (4 inches or so), it would be a 8200. Can't say if there would be a firmware problem (drive ID or other funny things) Nico -- Jeg beskyttes af den gratis SPAMfighter til privatbrugere. Den har indtil videre sparet mig for at f? 17 spam-mails. Betalende brugere f?r ikke denne besked i deres e-mails. Hent gratis SPAMfighter her: http://www.spamfighter.com/lda From drb at msu.edu Thu Jan 8 13:54:25 2009 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 14:54:25 -0500 Subject: Free Wang 2200 CS equipment near Detroit, Michigan In-Reply-To: (Your message of Thu, 08 Jan 2009 13:37:01 CST.) <496655DD.3030507@pacbell.net> References: <496655DD.3030507@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <200901081954.n08JsPQK017479@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > The Wang CS was a late 80s incarnation of the 2200 MVP. The MVP is a > microcoded machine that runs the Wang BASIC-2 dialect. It is also a > timeshared system, as you can connect up to 16 terminals (that is what > the 2236 thing is -- intelligent terminals with 8080s in them). The SDS > drive is a 3rd party hard disk made by Southern Data Systems. I would > suspect a cache of manuals and software come with it. > It is located in Southfield, Michigan. The owner doesn't want any cash, > just wants it gone as they are moving locations. If nobody claims it in > the next few weeks, it will be turned back into sand. I need to run to Farmington this weekend, and could probably help load this if someone is interested. I hesitate to offer to store it temporarily, because space is a bit tight at home right now. De From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jan 8 14:17:30 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 15:17:30 -0500 Subject: IBM 3532 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I dont know the 3532, but IBM did use Exabytes 8200 and 8500 in the AS/400 > series. > If the drive is normal height (4 inches or so), it would be a 8200. > Can't say if there would be a firmware problem (drive ID or other funny > things) Thanks, but that is why I would like to know the IBM FRU (that ##AB#### sort of number). -- Will From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Thu Jan 8 14:37:58 2009 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (Stephane Tsacas) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 21:37:58 +0100 Subject: pdp 11/55 music LP on ebay (350143529632) Message-ID: http://cgi.ebay.fr/LP-KLARENZ-BARLOW-HERBERT-HENCK-PDP-11-55-WERGO_W0QQitemZ350143529632QQcmdZViewItemQQptZB?cher_Unterhaltung_Music_CDs?_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116#ht_1941wt_907 From the auction item description : *Klarenz Barlow, " ?o?luotob?si?letmesi* *"* ** *Herbert Henck, Klavier* *PDP 11/55 Computer, 4X Digital-Synthesizer* -- Stephane Paris, France. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Jan 8 14:42:21 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 20:42:21 +0000 Subject: KD-11F (11/03) in a BA11-N?? In-Reply-To: <00df01c971a5$5fcbe3f0$1f63abd0$@com> References: <00df01c971a5$5fcbe3f0$1f63abd0$@com> Message-ID: <4966652D.7090603@dunnington.plus.com> On 08/01/2009 15:25, Bob Armstrong wrote: >> Pete Turnbull (pete at dunnington.plus.com) wrote: >> a 64KB (32KW) MSV11-D with a base address of 000000(8) responds to all >> addresses from 000000(8) to 177777(8). > It's certainly possible that could be a problem, but I've been reading the > MSV11-D user's manual (it's on vt100.net) and it doesn't have a jumper to > disable the top page. Actually what it has is a jumper to _enable_ the > bottom 2K of the I/O page, so you can have a tiny bit of extra RAM in > systems without many I/O devices. Ah yes, I mis-remembered - sorry. All the diagrams and labels in the MSV11-D,E manuals and the various handbooks refer to that jumper as "enable/disable bank 7" and I tend to forget exactly what that means! > The MSV11 manual says only "factory configured modules will not respond to > bank 7 addresses..." and it then goes on to say how you can enable the lower > 2K of bank 7 with the aforementioned jumper, but it's quiet about how it > decides what a bank 7 address is (i.e. does it monitor BBS7 or the address > bits?). It monitors BBS7 to determine if access is to the I/O page, and optionally combines that with BDAL12 to see if it's the lower 2K or upper 2K. If you jumper the CPU to enter ODT instead of executing the bootstrap, what happens? Or if you power things up with with the front panel set to HALT? If you attempt to execute the BDV11 bootstrap, what happens when it halts? Does the RUN light ever light, even briefly? What do the lights on the BDV11 show? Do these same boards, in exactly this combination, work properly in the BA11-M? Exactly which version of the M7264 do you have? -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jan 8 15:15:14 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 16:15:14 -0500 Subject: Ancient Mac file/disk preservation/archiving (was Re: Mac 400k floppy drive alignment?) Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 1:07 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > One of these days one of my tuits will be other than rhomboidal, and I'll put > System 7.5 on the 6100 in my storage locker (since that's the last version of > Mac OS that will deal with 400K disks)... Good to know... I have plenty of late 68K and early PPC Macs handy, but wasn't sure what could or could not read 400K disks. > I still have the original MacWrite and MacPaint floppies that came > with my 128K... I think I still have those from somewhere (I couldn't afford a Mac when they were *NEW*, but I did manage one eventually. >... along with a lot of other good stuff (like the Banana PC 6000 Jr. > emulator for the Finder, and a CLI that would only run on a 68000). Nice. Those sound like fun. I know I have plenty of old 400K disks because I have yet to go through the boxes of floppies from my mother's shop. She ran "Academic Typing and Typesetting" for years, a few blocks north of Ohio State; and for the longest time, she used Mac 512K and 512Ke machines (eventually with Dove Snap boards), a couple of Mac Pluses, then finally settled on Mac SEs which she stayed with until she died in 1997. I don't think she had a single machine that I didn't open up to either repair or upgrade (or both!) over the years, including loading a "Plus" ROM set into her $5,000 original Apple LaserWriter. She never could get over the fact that her laser printer was always her most powerful computer. It wasn't until late that she had a Mac over 2.5MB of RAM. She moved up from IBM Selectric II typewriters, and to her, the Mac was foremost a machine for processing text. She never outgrew System 5 and whatever version of Word for Macintosh that ran on a Mac Plus-equivalent box even when all new Macs had color and more memory and disk in one machine than all of hers combined. She wasn't much for games, unsurprisingly, but in amongst stacks of student papers and dissertations, I hope to find a few gems tucked here and there. Her entire collection of floppies plus images of all of her machines would scarcely make a dent in a CD-ROM, so it's more the time it's going to take to read things in than anything else. Presuming one has a few hundred floppies to read in, does anyone have any favorite apps to recommend? I presume, like for the Amiga, there are preferred floppy image formats that could be used to either reconstitute real media or to feed to an emulator. Obviously, any imaging program should be able to do that, but it doesn't hurt to specifically ask. Among the (not uncommon) things I recall from her machines in the 1980s are MacPuke, the "Jive Finder", and a variety of PICTs of various anti-DOS posters. What I'm looking forward to is finding things I've long forgotten were there. -ethan From drb at msu.edu Thu Jan 8 15:28:23 2009 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 16:28:23 -0500 Subject: Ancient Mac file/disk preservation/archiving (was Re: Mac 400k floppy drive alignment?) In-Reply-To: (Your message of Thu, 08 Jan 2009 16:15:14 EST.) References: Message-ID: <200901082128.n08LSN0F019676@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> On Thu, Jan 8, 2009 at 1:07 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > One of these days one of my tuits will be other than rhomboidal, and I'll put > System 7.5 on the 6100 in my storage locker (since that's the last version of > Mac OS that will deal with 400K disks)... Those who have a runnable copy of Word 1.0 for Mac may wish to keep it runnable. The file format it generated is readable by nearly nothing else, including any later Word version. We had to recover a textbook (possibly the only one ever written) for an African language (Pulaar) written by a local professor in the 80s using Word 1.0. Since I've never been a machead, the only thing that saved us was that one of our student employees happened to have an old Mac laying around that had this version installed. De From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Jan 8 16:01:05 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 16:01:05 -0600 Subject: Free Wang 2200 CS equipment near Detroit, Michigan In-Reply-To: <496655DD.3030507@pacbell.net> References: <496655DD.3030507@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <496677A1.4050804@pacbell.net> Jim Battle wrote: > I was contacted by Mr. Mike Sharl. He has a client that needs to > dispose of some functioning Wang equipment, namely: It has been claimed, thankfully. From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Jan 8 16:07:17 2009 From: arcarlini at iee.org (a.carlini) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 22:07:17 -0000 Subject: Source for SCART connectors in US? In-Reply-To: <1231403490.5820.102.camel@elric> Message-ID: <010301c971dd$7d0e2580$ee04010a@dis754cbb81360> Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: > On Wed, 2009-01-07 at 14:36 +0000, msw at orac.wickensonline.co.uk wrote: >> I N T E R O F F I C E M E M O R A N D U M > > >Wow, that's obnoxious. Whose bright idea was it to tack on a huge signature block at the *top* of the email? I was just about to ask him whether that really was an ALL-IN-1 system sending email directly to the list! Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jan 8 16:17:46 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 17:17:46 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 modem Message-ID: I have a TRS-80 acoustic coupler type modem, model AC-3, available. It is in perfect condition, never been used. I do not have the power unit, however. And I mean perfect. Available, best offer over sixteen cents plus postage from 10512. -- Will From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 8 16:32:31 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 14:32:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: FS: Binding machine (Was: DEC Direct Sales Catalog In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730901072054o4cc5c74fi5143905821fc145@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090108142050.R4416@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 8 Jan 2009, William Donzelli wrote: > Rebinding softcover books is actually pretty easy, if you know what > you are doing, and have the right tools and materials. Many printshops > can do it. > I have done it myself. $1.00 OBO pickup in Berkeley: (I don't want to deal with shipping!) Armarco Bind-O-Mat 200 tabletop hot glue 'perfect' (paperback/phonebook) binding machine. ~4' long by 1' by 1' requires some practice to use well. -- Fred Cisin cisin at xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com 1213 Cornell Ave (510) 524-9456 Berkeley, CA 94706 From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jan 8 16:57:05 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 17:57:05 -0500 Subject: Interesting Folder Message-ID: I am culling thru some IBM docs, and came across a boring printer memo (for the 3203, all about print quality, big deal) bound in an interesting binder. It is a standard 1950s brown Accopress binder, but the tag on the front says "FRAME 41, XD-1 MAINTENANCE SUPPORT, GROUP 201-250". This cam from a gut that gave RCS a big pile of IBM docs (he was an FE) in the Boston area. XD-1 as in AN/FSQ-7(XD-1)? Mike? -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jan 8 17:13:53 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 18:13:53 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 modem In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I have a TRS-80 acoustic coupler type modem, model AC-3, available. Looks plain Jane RS-232 to me, by the way. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jan 8 17:25:48 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 18:25:48 -0500 Subject: IBM paper Message-ID: I culled roughly 15 pounds of IBM docs out of my pile (so much more to go!) - and it all needs a good home. It is mostly late 1970s early 80s mainframe stuff, dealing with terminals and control units, and some printers as well. I think there is a little disk stuff, too. User guides, maintenance, and thing like that. Best offer over sixteen cents plus shipping from 10512. Al gets automatic dibs. -- Will From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu Jan 8 17:30:56 2009 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 18:30:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: Interesting Folder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 8 Jan 2009, William Donzelli wrote: > I am culling thru some IBM docs, and came across a boring printer memo > (for the 3203, all about print quality, big deal) bound in an > interesting binder. It is a standard 1950s brown Accopress binder, but > the tag on the front says "FRAME 41, XD-1 MAINTENANCE SUPPORT, GROUP > 201-250". This cam from a gut that gave RCS a big pile of IBM docs (he > was an FE) in the Boston area. > > XD-1 as in AN/FSQ-7(XD-1)? Sounds like it. XD-1 would have been at MIT's Lincoln Labs facility. Frame 41 is the Long-range Radar Inputs (LRI) unit. Interesting find. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jan 8 19:39:39 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 20:39:39 -0500 Subject: IBM paper In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Al gets automatic dibs. Claimed by the man himself... -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 8 20:30:51 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 18:30:51 -0800 Subject: more housecleaning -- floppy disk manuals In-Reply-To: <49665722.6030305@comcast.net> References: , <49665722.6030305@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4966465B.19592.C57FC1D@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Jan 2009 at 18:48, Tony Duell wrote: > I think there must have been. Didn;t the Commodore 8050 use 100tpi > drives? In which case the 8250LP ('Low Profile') and I guess the PET > 8296D (Intenral drives, basically an 8296 and 8250LP built into one > case) must have used half-height 100tpi drives. Stock electronics or "Commodore" style drive electronics? I don't know much about these specific units. Cheers, Chuck From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Thu Jan 8 22:46:58 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 20:46:58 -0800 Subject: Mac 400k floppy drive alignment? In-Reply-To: References: <49611D16.9040802@mail.msu.edu> <4965A906.2020005@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4966D6C2.4020909@mail.msu.edu> Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Josh Dersch > Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 11:20 PM > > >> Thanks for the advice. After a few hours' fiddling I've got the drive >> reading/writing reliably. Now to find some 400k images of mac software >> that'll run on a 128k :). >> > > One of these days one of my tuits will be other than rhomboidal, and I'll put > System 7.5 on the 6100 in my storage locker (since that's the last version of > Mac OS that will deal with 400K disks) to run disk copy and create those > images. I still have the original MacWrite and MacPaint floppies that came > with my 128K, along with a lot of other good stuff (like the Banana PC 6000 Jr. > emulator for the Finder, and a CLI that would only run on a 68000). > > > Rich Alderson > Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project > Vulcan, Inc. > 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 > Seattle, WA 98104 > > mailto:RichA at vulcan.com > (206) 342-2239 > (206) 465-2916 cell > > > > Cool stuff - let me know if you ever get that done. (Or if you suspect you'll never have time, I have a IIfx here that's all set up for such a task, and I'm in the Seattle area ;). Thanks, Josh From msw at orac.wickensonline.co.uk Thu Jan 8 02:51:21 2009 From: msw at orac.wickensonline.co.uk (msw at orac.wickensonline.co.uk) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 08:51:21 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Source for SCART connectors in US? Message-ID: <09010808512172@orac.wickensonline.co.uk> I N T E R O F F I C E M E M O R A N D U M Date: 08-Jan-2009 08:49am GMT From: Mark Wickens MSW Dept: Software Development Tel No: 01539 446851 TO: VMSmail User SMTP%"cctalk at clas ( _"SMTP%""cctalk at classiccmp.org""" ) Subject: Re: Source for SCART connectors in US? Gordon, Sorry, I'm doing retrochallenge this year and sending all my emails through ALLIN1, the DIGITAL office automation product circa 80s-90s. I'll investigate how to change the standard email template. For anyone who's interested my challenge is using a VAX 4000/90 as my home computer during January and a couple of small programming challenges. My blog is at: http://www.wickensonline.co.uk/retro Regards, Mark. From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Jan 8 06:04:57 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 07:04:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: Source for SCART connectors in US? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Jan 2009, Steven Hirsch wrote: > Can anyone help me find a supplier for SCART video connectors in the USA? > Maplins in UK has them but wants almost $100.00 (!) flat fee for handling on > international orders. > > Are there any UK vendors with their feet on this planet? In a pinch, is > there a cctech reader overseas that wouldn't mind being a middleman? I don't > want to pay $100.00 for the service, but wouldn't mind a few bucks/pounds for > overhead :-). A hearty thanks to all who've responded! I have a SCART switchbox on the way to me from a list reader and was able to locate some very reasonably priced cables on eBay. I really enjoy the spirit of helpfulness that abides on this list! Happy New Year to all. Steve -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Jan 8 06:10:02 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 07:10:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: Membrane keyboard connector repair advice? (Osborne 1) In-Reply-To: <4965AC53.7040506@mail.msu.edu> References: <4965AC53.7040506@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Jan 2009, Josh Dersch wrote: > Yet another small repair question -- > > Picked up an Osborne 1 with a non-functional keyboard. Upon opening it, I > found that one of the plastic/membrane keyboard ribbon connectors had cracked > partially through near where it plugs into the PCB. > > Since these ribbons are actually part of the membrane of the keyboard I can't > just replace the cracked ribbon -- so the only option appears to be to re-cut > the end of the ribbon cable and expose a bit of the conductive material. > What's the recommended means to expose the conductive stripes at the end? > I've tried gently scraping with the tip of an x-acto knife but it either does > nothing or takes everything off the end :). Are you sure the ribbon is actually a "sandwich"? My Tandy CoCos and Atari 800XL units have a similar flex ribbon where the conductors are on the top surface. I've been able to simply cut them back and reinsert the remainder. (I initially went down the same path and tried scraping them - with similar results ). Steve -- From chrise at pobox.com Thu Jan 8 11:05:19 2009 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 11:05:19 -0600 Subject: SGI Visualisation Systems... Good for Maya and what else? In-Reply-To: <49652787.2050503@gmail.com> References: <49652787.2050503@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090108170518.GD29003@n0jcf.net> On Wednesday (01/07/2009 at 04:07PM -0600), Jules Richardson wrote: >> >> I'm unsure where you're at - but I picked all of mine up from the Boeing >> surplus in Missouri. They're selling them cheaper than dirt... (how about >> a pallet of four Onyx2 desksides for $25? Or an Origin3000 for $100?) > > Middle of Minnesota - there's absolutely nothing up here that needs > anything more powerful than an office with a few PCs in it, sadly. I'm not > even sure what there might be down in Minneapolis - it's not exactly heavy > computing territory (although of course 3M have their roots here, so maybe > there are still a few gems tucked away down that way) well, ah... inspite of the rumors of our death being greatly exaggerated, some of us do still work at SGI... in Minnesota... Eagan to be exact. There is a room full of O2K and O3K (and newer stuff of course) directly behind my office. They're powered on and running... Chris -- Chris Elmquist mailto:chrise at pobox.com From dpham at americanalphainc.com Thu Jan 8 12:11:31 2009 From: dpham at americanalphainc.com (Danny Pham) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 13:11:31 -0500 Subject: 29F512 flash memory Message-ID: <000001c971bc$889eab20$3501a8c0@americanalphainc.com> I'm using ChipMax programmer to flash EPROM 29F512 and for some reasons, it doesn't flash the program. Is there anything that you think I'm doing something wrong? Please give me some advises. Thank you! Best regards, Danny From jlobocki at gmail.com Thu Jan 8 13:10:09 2009 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 13:10:09 -0600 Subject: SGI Visualisation Systems... Good for Maya and what else? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 6:35 PM, Richard wrote: > > In article , > JP Hindin writes: > > > I was asked recently what my Onyx rack was good for. And it occurred to > me > > beyond the easy answer of "running Maya"... I wasn't really sure. So, if > > you used one of these bigger machines in production (particularly the > > Onyx, Onyx2, etc graphics "Visualisation" systems)... I'd sure love to > > know what -you- used it for. > > The University of Utah was using these until recently for high-end > visualization. Boeing most likely used them for flight simulator type > uses like the F-15 built by McDonnell Douglasi (Boeing absorbed them > in 1997). > > SGI machines still beat out PCs on I/O bandwidth and some other > qualities, so these large O2K or O3K machines are not without current > commercial users. However, PCs and the Cell broadband engine are > giving them a run for their money and its much more cost effective to > use more compact equipment for these things. Only certain > applications where the I/O and timing guarantees are important make > sense for the big SGI iron anymore. Of course, SGI has completely > abandoned that market anyway, so you'd be using these machines in > 'legacy' mode these days and preparing some sort of replacement setup > for when they die. > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > > > Legalize Adulthood! > abandoned the visualization market? http://www.sgi.com/vue/ it looks like they are back in, and according to the top corner, using the full old logo, which says "silicon graphics" again From charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com Thu Jan 8 13:33:32 2009 From: charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 11:33:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: HP's use of DEC equipment RE: Crossing compiling HP3000 MPE on a VAX In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <682955.78302.qm@web35307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 1/8/09, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Rich Alderson > Subject: HP's use of DEC equipment RE: Crossing compiling HP3000 MPE on a VAX > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > Date: Thursday, January 8, 2009, 10:00 AM > From: Lee Courtney > Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 4:25 PM > > > Topic drift, but your post reminded me of one of the > most interesting uses > > for a VAX I know of. > > > Back when HP was developing PA-RISC (mid-1980's) > to replace the 16-bit stack > > architecture 3000 we used a VAX-750 running BSD to > host a PA-RISC simulator. > > [big snip ] > > Hi, Lee, > > [I didn't know you had worked for HP. You may have > known one of my student > friends from Stanford who worked on HP-UX for PA-RISC > after he graduated, but > that's a topic for another time.] Send me a name(s) off-line. I wasn't heavily engaged with the HP-UX Lab, but my wife was (and still is). > This was not the first time, or first DEC architecture, > that HP used in product > development. Several of the engineers at XKL were former > DEC-20 users while > employed at HP, which used the SUDS CAD package (as did > cisco Systems, where > many of them went from HP). Some of my old friends were > the system managers > for those machines. > Very interesting - if you know more I'd be interested in hearing (off-line). When I joined HP in the late 70s I had used TOPS-20 for several years, but had never touched an HP box. For a while the hardware Lab also had several 3270 type terminals used for CAD/CAM, connected to one of the IBM mainframes in Palo Alto. By the time the PA-RISC Lab moved from Building 42 to 44 in Cupertino, and the project transitioned from HP-Labs to the product division I believe all that work had moved to HP workstations. We also had tricked out IBM AS400 living in the MPE Lab for a while, but that's a different story... Along the same lines I also heard a rumor that in the 1960s SDS used an IBM mainframe for its internal accounting, even as they were competing with the 360 in the business DP marketplace. Interesting how different vendors infiltrated others. Often so things could get done faster and more efficiently. Cheers, Lee Courtney From philip at axeside.co.uk Thu Jan 8 14:01:59 2009 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 20:01:59 +0000 Subject: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: <495D3AAA.1000509@jbrain.com> References: <495D3668.8010202@jbrain.com> <495D3AAA.1000509@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <49665BB7.8090105@axeside.co.uk> I'm coming late to this discussion, and I'm only on CCTech, so I may not have seen everything (not to mention not having had internet over Christmas, and having a lot of messages to skim as a result), but I'd like to get my bit in. Jim Brain wrote: >> I'll check into this (any other links to HPIB interfaces?) Right now, >> I'm fighting with the fact that I believe the full complement of >> IEEE-488 signals is 17, and it sure would be nice if I could get it >> down to 16 > Scratch that. I miscounted. > Jim You can probably make do without REN, too. The PET has it tied to ground, i.e. permanently asserted, for a start. Just assume it's asserted and you won't go far wrong! Commodore drives do some strange things with GPIB addressing. Bit 7 isn't supposed to be used, but I think Commodore use it to add a flag to the primary address when opening files. ISTR they may even use bit 6 this way, thus preventing you from having a device at (disk drive)+16. I don't have much HP stuff (although I do have some 80-series boxen), but one drive I'd like to see emulated would be the Tektronix 4907. This was a device for adding 8-inch floppies to your Tek 4050 series. The 4050 series has its own quirks with GPIB. The one that most annoyed me when I was using a Commodore 8050 with my Tek 4052 was its habit of asserting IFC when you least wanted it to. Like immediately before loading a program, thus causing the 8050 to forget all I had laboriously told it about the program I wanted to load... Philip. From bqt at softjar.se Thu Jan 8 15:10:23 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 22:10:23 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/05 returns to life In-Reply-To: <200901070238.n072bWQr026537@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901070238.n072bWQr026537@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <49666BBF.4030002@softjar.se> Paul Koning wrote: >>>>>> >>>>> "Henk" == Henk Gooijen writes: > >> 2. Is there a chasing lights program I can run on the 11/05? Would > >> be nice to see it visibly doing something > > Henk> Search the net. There is a small program (estimate 7 words). It > Henk> uses the RESET instruction (is that 000005?) ... not nice if > Henk> you connect an RX01 or RX02 to the machine as on every RESET > Henk> (INIT) the heads clunk! > > That's a bit ugly... Definitely. > A cleaner one is the RSTS null job. It relies on the fact that a > number of PDP-11s -- including the 11/05 as far as I remember -- will > display R0 in the lights during a WAIT instruction. > > RT11 won't do, that uses the status register so you need a machine > that has it and that displays it. I forgot what RSX does. Not sure > you could run that on an -05 anyway. RSX uses the side effect of R0 being shown on the data bus on a WAIT instruction as well. And yes, I think you could get RSX running on an 11/05. I don't think there was any PDP11 that couldn't run RSX, but it would be a rather specific RSX you would gen for it. I doubt you could boot any generic RSX system on that machine. Instead you would have to run the sysgen on another machine, and just boot the resulting system on the 11/05. Think unmapped RSX. That won't use any MMU. Still, you'd probably want the full 56K on that machine. > Sufficiently old RT11s should work on that machine. So would RSTS > V4A, if you can find an RK05 or RF11 or RP03 disk drive. :-) New versions of RT-11 should do as well, as long as you select a variant that don't need the MMU. Same goes for RSX, except that RSX won't be self-hosting. > RSTS null job looks like this: > > ; THE SIMPLE NULL JOB > > 10$: MOV R2,R1 ;RELOAD THE WAIT COUNTER > 20$: WAIT ;DISPLAY THE LIGHTS (R0) A WHILE > SOB R1,20$ ;KEEP WAITING > ROL R0 ;ELSE SHIFT PATTERN 1 PLACE LEFT > BR 10$ ; AND AROUND AGAIN... > > You need a periodic interrupt, of course, to break out of the WAIT. And RSX is something similar. Fool around a little, set up R0, and WAIT. The clock interrupt would break you out. Johnny From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Fri Jan 9 01:15:50 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 08 Jan 2009 23:15:50 -0800 Subject: Membrane keyboard connector repair advice? (Osborne 1) In-Reply-To: References: <4965AC53.7040506@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4966F9A6.4030508@mail.msu.edu> Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Wed, 7 Jan 2009, Josh Dersch wrote: > >> Yet another small repair question -- >> >> Picked up an Osborne 1 with a non-functional keyboard. Upon opening >> it, I found that one of the plastic/membrane keyboard ribbon >> connectors had cracked partially through near where it plugs into the >> PCB. >> >> Since these ribbons are actually part of the membrane of the keyboard >> I can't just replace the cracked ribbon -- so the only option appears >> to be to re-cut the end of the ribbon cable and expose a bit of the >> conductive material. What's the recommended means to expose the >> conductive stripes at the end? I've tried gently scraping with the >> tip of an x-acto knife but it either does nothing or takes everything >> off the end :). > > Are you sure the ribbon is actually a "sandwich"? My Tandy CoCos and > Atari 800XL units have a similar flex ribbon where the conductors are > on the top surface. I've been able to simply cut them back and > reinsert the remainder. (I initially went down the same path and > tried scraping them - with similar results ). > > Steve > It's not a sandwich, but there's definitely some sort of coating over the conductive stripes -- I get nothing out of my continuity tester by touching the probes on opposite ends of a given stripe. Hmm. Josh From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Jan 9 02:47:12 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 03:47:12 -0500 Subject: Memory/cache on the 11/70 In-Reply-To: <03bb01c96b82$6f22ec50$46fea8c0@DeskJara> References: <495A0906.6050206@softjar.se> <495BB942.9030409@jetnet.ab.ca> <03bb01c96b82$6f22ec50$46fea8c0@DeskJara> Message-ID: <200901090347.12788.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 31 December 2008 02:59:43 pm Alexandre Souza wrote: > > TTL ... and a few gals... I trust hardware more than software is my view > > point. > > Real cache memory 32k*8 is about 15ns access time in a skinny 28 pin > > package. > > I am just not sure how much memory you can get on a card however ... > > Sigh. > > You have many ways to go. Old Pentium cache is 128K X 4 in a very small > SMD package. But you can get 32X8 in DIP packages which will be free for > asking anywhere. 32kx8 sounds like a real handy size for some of the things that I'd like to do, with z80 and similar 8-bit parts. Any suggestions as to where I might find some welcomed. I have 2kx8 and 8kx8 parts, but nothing bigger. Maybe I should look on my old 486 boards? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 9 02:58:56 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 00:58:56 -0800 Subject: Memory/cache on the 11/70 In-Reply-To: <200901090347.12788.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <495A0906.6050206@softjar.se>, <03bb01c96b82$6f22ec50$46fea8c0@DeskJara>, <200901090347.12788.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4966A150.29876.DBB4414@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Jan 2009 at 3:47, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Any suggestions as to where I might find some welcomed. I have 2kx8 and 8kx8 > parts, but nothing bigger. How fast do you need the parts? There's a "nuisance factor" with smaller capacity SRAM parts--more layout, and sockets (if you use them). You can still get new 70 nsec 128Kx8 and 512Kx8 SRAM in DIP for not a lot of money--and lower power. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Jan 9 03:06:05 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 04:06:05 -0500 Subject: What kind of IC is this In-Reply-To: <0KCR00M2UOI3PLM3@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0KCR00M2UOI3PLM3@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200901090406.05353.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 31 December 2008 07:40:03 pm Allison wrote: > >Subject: Re: What kind of IC is this > > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > > Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 22:50:52 +0000 (GMT) > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > >> > If you're lucky, eitehr th microcontroller is old enough not to > >> > have any security features, or they're not used. In which case you > >> > remove the chip from the PCB and stick it in a suitable programmer. > >> > >> Even the original Intel 8051/8751, circa 1980, has security > >> bits. :-( There are ways to get around (at least) those, though. > > > >Yes, but IIRC the 8048 series (common in classic computer stuff) > > doesn't... > > > >-tony > > My fractional portion of currency is that the 630x is a hitachi varient of > the 680x (6800 single chip mpus). I've seen and have some them from older > hard disks and DC300 tape drives that had mechanically expired. > > Allison I have some of these, HD6303Y in particular, and a databook that covers them. That particular chip was used with an external 27C256 in a musical keyboard where an upgrade offered by the mfr. replaced it with a masked part, so I got some nice salvage out of the deal. :-) Rather odd packaging, though, 64-pin "shrunk" DIP. I did manage to snag a wire-wrap socket for these as a sample at a trade show, but I'm still either going to have to drill a bunch of holes in my perfboard or bend the pins or something to use it. Maybe one of these days... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Jan 9 03:18:36 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 04:18:36 -0500 Subject: What kind of IC is this - part two In-Reply-To: <20090101202915.56b17832.lehmann@ans-netz.de> References: <20090101202915.56b17832.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Message-ID: <200901090418.37130.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 01 January 2009 02:29:15 pm Oliver Lehmann wrote: > Ok, > > I got another one - now with picture! ;) > > It is labeled > > DDU-4- > 7992 > > The picture can be seen here: > > http://pics.pofo.de/gallery/v/S8000/S8000_boards/P1070269.JPG.html > > Wild guessing.... resistornetwork? capacitornetwork (was something like > that around?)? Delay line. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Jan 9 04:25:17 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 05:25:17 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/05 returns to life In-Reply-To: <4963C3FC.4000004@philpem.me.uk> References: <1231273167.6447.87.camel@spasmo> <4963C3FC.4000004@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <200901090525.17966.rtellason@verizon.net> > If you really want to resurrect the fans you've got, you could try removing > the label and putting a drop of 3-in-1 oil on the bearing. Don't expect it > to be anything other than a temporary fix, though. Actually I've had pretty good luck with doing that with any number of fans, for a bunch of years here. I don't use 3-in-1, but some other stuff we have around here that's a pretty light oil and that comes in a similar package, Sunoco branded, I think. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From bob at jfcl.com Fri Jan 9 04:51:38 2009 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 02:51:38 -0800 Subject: KD-11F (11/03) in a BA11-N?? In-Reply-To: <4966652D.7090603@dunnington.plus.com> References: <00df01c971a5$5fcbe3f0$1f63abd0$@com> <4966652D.7090603@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <020a01c97248$3ffd81c0$bff88540$@com> > Peter Turnbull wrote: >If you jumper the CPU to enter ODT instead of executing the bootstrap, >what happens? You never get the ODT prompt (the "@"). Never get anything on the console, FWIW. > Or if you power things up with with the front panel set to HALT? Ditto. > If you attempt to execute the BDV11 bootstrap, what happens >when it halts? Does the RUN light ever light, even briefly? What do >the lights on the BDV11 show? The BDV11 shows all four LEDs on, and the RUN LED does blink momentarily but then goes off. So it's trapping immediately on startup. Either the CPU card is bad (which I know isn't true) or it can't find any addressable RAM, or it can't access the console SLU registers, or something is inhibiting the LSI11 from running at all. >Do these same boards, in exactly this combination, work properly in the BA11-M? Yep. And the same boards except the CPU, work in the same combination in the BA11-N with a 11/23 CPU card. [It's one of the half sized 11/23 cards - KDF11-A - without the onboard SLU and ROMs] >Exactly which version of the M7264 do you have? If you mean the rev level, that I don't know off hand. It's one of the ones with no actual onboard RAM, though (it has the space for it; the RAM chips just aren't populated). Bob From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Jan 9 05:05:52 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 06:05:52 -0500 Subject: What kind of IC is this In-Reply-To: <49662FCE.4060307@philpem.me.uk> References: <20081230193428.69f05be5.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <200901080733.46180.rtellason@verizon.net> <49662FCE.4060307@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <200901090605.52981.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 08 January 2009 11:54:38 am Philip Pemberton wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > "One of the celebrated things Widlar did was to put a "hassler" in his > > office.2 When a person came in to his office and spoke loudly, this > > circuit would detect the audio, convert the audio to a very high audio > > frequency, and play back this converted sound. > > [snip] > > > I *want* one of these...! > > It was published in Electronic Design magazine: > > "What's All This Hassler Stuff, Anyhow?" (Pease Porridge) > Pease, Bob > Electronic Design, May 15, 1995 > > I've got a (signed!) copy of the article here. Five op-amps (1x LMC6484, > LM837 or similar + 1x LM301A), two transistors (jellybeans), a handful of > Rs and Cs, half a dozen 1N914 diodes, a tweeter (Radioshack 40-1383 or > similar -- 2x6" piezo horn tweeter) and a microphone (Radioshack 270-090 or > similar -- basically a cheap PCB-mount electret element). Yeah, I started browsing through his other articles after reading that one, and ran across a link to that device somewhere in the process. Saved the page with the smallish diargam on it (I couldn't really see it on my screen), and will look into it one of these days... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Jan 9 05:25:55 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 06:25:55 -0500 Subject: more housecleaning -- floppy disk manuals In-Reply-To: <4966465B.19592.C57FC1D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <49665722.6030305@comcast.net> <4966465B.19592.C57FC1D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200901090625.55367.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 08 January 2009 09:30:51 pm Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8 Jan 2009 at 18:48, Tony Duell wrote: > > I think there must have been. Didn;t the Commodore 8050 use 100tpi > > drives? In which case the 8250LP ('Low Profile') and I guess the PET > > 8296D (Intenral drives, basically an 8296 and 8250LP built into one > > case) must have used half-height 100tpi drives. > > Stock electronics or "Commodore" style drive electronics? I don't > know much about these specific units. > > Cheers, > Chuck To the best of my recollection (I only ever encountered one of those 8050s) the electronics were very c= - specific. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From toby at coreware.co.uk Fri Jan 9 05:25:54 2009 From: toby at coreware.co.uk (Tobias Russell) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 11:25:54 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/05 returns to life In-Reply-To: <49666BBF.4030002@softjar.se> References: <200901070238.n072bWQr026537@dewey.classiccmp.org> <49666BBF.4030002@softjar.se> Message-ID: <1231500354.2898.128.camel@pokoyo.tan.russellsharpe.com> I've tried out this chasing lights code on the 11/05: Location Contents Opcode Comment 001000 012700 mov #1,r0 Load 1 into R0 001002 000001 001004 006100 rol r0 Rotate R0 left 001006 000005 reset Initialise bus (70ms) 001010 000775 br .-4 Loop back to 'rol r0' (from http://www.psych.usyd.edu.au/pdp-11/11_40.html) This runs, but no chasing lights, I just see what looks like PC activity. So perhaps the 11/05 doesn't display R0 on a RESET. On the operating system front, I've built an RT11 v4 RX01 image on SIMH, but its refusing to work with 16KW of memory (using SJ). Does anyone have any tips for minimizing the memory requirements on RT-11? Finally, I have a choice of RX21 + RX02 or RX11 + RX01 on the 11/05. Beyond the added pain of having to toggle in a longer bootstrap on the RX02, is there any reason not to go with the RX21/RX02 combo? Thanks, Toby On Thu, 2009-01-08 at 22:10 +0100, Johnny Billquist wrote: > Paul Koning wrote: > > >>>>>> >>>>> "Henk" == Henk Gooijen writes: > > > >> 2. Is there a chasing lights program I can run on the 11/05? Would > > >> be nice to see it visibly doing something > > > > Henk> Search the net. There is a small program (estimate 7 words). It > > Henk> uses the RESET instruction (is that 000005?) ... not nice if > > Henk> you connect an RX01 or RX02 to the machine as on every RESET > > Henk> (INIT) the heads clunk! > > > > That's a bit ugly... > > Definitely. > > > A cleaner one is the RSTS null job. It relies on the fact that a > > number of PDP-11s -- including the 11/05 as far as I remember -- will > > display R0 in the lights during a WAIT instruction. > > > > RT11 won't do, that uses the status register so you need a machine > > that has it and that displays it. I forgot what RSX does. Not sure > > you could run that on an -05 anyway. > > RSX uses the side effect of R0 being shown on the data bus on a WAIT > instruction as well. > And yes, I think you could get RSX running on an 11/05. I don't think > there was any PDP11 that couldn't run RSX, but it would be a rather > specific RSX you would gen for it. I doubt you could boot any generic > RSX system on that machine. Instead you would have to run the sysgen on > another machine, and just boot the resulting system on the 11/05. > > Think unmapped RSX. That won't use any MMU. Still, you'd probably want > the full 56K on that machine. > > > Sufficiently old RT11s should work on that machine. So would RSTS > > V4A, if you can find an RK05 or RF11 or RP03 disk drive. :-) > > New versions of RT-11 should do as well, as long as you select a variant > that don't need the MMU. Same goes for RSX, except that RSX won't be > self-hosting. > > > RSTS null job looks like this: > > > > ; THE SIMPLE NULL JOB > > > > 10$: MOV R2,R1 ;RELOAD THE WAIT COUNTER > > 20$: WAIT ;DISPLAY THE LIGHTS (R0) A WHILE > > SOB R1,20$ ;KEEP WAITING > > ROL R0 ;ELSE SHIFT PATTERN 1 PLACE LEFT > > BR 10$ ; AND AROUND AGAIN... > > > > You need a periodic interrupt, of course, to break out of the WAIT. > > And RSX is something similar. Fool around a little, set up R0, and WAIT. > The clock interrupt would break you out. > > Johnny > > -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Jan 9 05:31:37 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 06:31:37 -0500 Subject: Memory/cache on the 11/70 In-Reply-To: <4966A150.29876.DBB4414@cclist.sydex.com> References: <495A0906.6050206@softjar.se> <200901090347.12788.rtellason@verizon.net> <4966A150.29876.DBB4414@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200901090631.37273.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 09 January 2009 03:58:56 am Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9 Jan 2009 at 3:47, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > Any suggestions as to where I might find some welcomed. I have 2kx8 and > > 8kx8 parts, but nothing bigger. > > How fast do you need the parts? Not very. I'm talking about fooling around with 4 MHz Z80s... > There's a "nuisance factor" with smaller capacity SRAM parts--more layout, > and sockets (if you use them). You can still get new 70 nsec 128Kx8 and > 512Kx8 SRAM in DIP for not a lot of money--and lower power. I suppose I could use that as program storage or somesuch. The 32kx8 parts could take care of my RAM needs for one of those chips with just two parts. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Fri Jan 9 05:30:57 2009 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (Stephane Tsacas) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 12:30:57 +0100 Subject: Computer Music (LP) ebay item 350143529632 Message-ID: http://cgi.ebay.fr/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350143529632 >From the auction item description : Klarenz Barlow, " ?o?luotob?si?letmesi " Herbert Henck, Klavier PDP 11/55 Computer, 4X Digital-Synthesizer -- Stephane Paris, France. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Jan 9 07:36:56 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 07:36:56 -0600 Subject: Source for SCART connectors in US? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <496752F8.8040206@gmail.com> Steven Hirsch wrote: > Are there any UK vendors with their feet on this planet? Hmm, our 8yr old asked me the other day if we can escape to the UK for when the sun wipes out the US in about 5 billion years' time... From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Jan 9 07:45:36 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 07:45:36 -0600 Subject: SGI Visualisation Systems... Good for Maya and what else? In-Reply-To: <20090108170518.GD29003@n0jcf.net> References: <49652787.2050503@gmail.com> <20090108170518.GD29003@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <49675500.1030800@gmail.com> Chris Elmquist wrote: > well, ah... inspite of the rumors of our death being greatly exaggerated, > some of us do still work at SGI... in Minnesota... Eagan to be exact. > > There is a room full of O2K and O3K (and newer stuff of course) directly > behind my office. They're powered on and running... Hey, let me know when they're powered off and available ;) Seriously, do you know what the disposal deal is there? I used to know a couple of 'tame' employees at SGI in the UK, but the policy there was that any surplus (regardless of source / age / condition) was rendered inoperative and then tossed in a dumspter to be hauled off for crushing. I never did try prodding SGI in a museum capacity, but they certainly didn't want any Great Unwashed computer collectors knocking on their door. Maybe that's not company-wide policy though, so the Eagan site's better... cheers Jules From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Jan 9 07:53:45 2009 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 14:53:45 +0100 (CET) Subject: PDP-11/05 returns to life In-Reply-To: <1231500354.2898.128.camel@pokoyo.tan.russellsharpe.com> References: <200901070238.n072bWQr026537@dewey.classiccmp.org> <49666BBF.4030002@softjar.se> <1231500354.2898.128.camel@pokoyo.tan.russellsharpe.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 9 Jan 2009, Tobias Russell wrote: > I've tried out this chasing lights code on the 11/05: [...] > This runs, but no chasing lights, I just see what looks like PC activity. So perhaps the > 11/05 doesn't display R0 on a RESET. I think that you can't have any chasing lights on an 11/05 or 11/10. Both processors are very reduced microcodes versions of the 11/20. And they don't address the frontpanel like the other PDPs, but instead the single row LED line is loaded serially and displays the PC when running. This FP is really only useful when the CPU is halted. Christian From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Fri Jan 9 08:24:11 2009 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 15:24:11 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/05 returns to life In-Reply-To: <1231500354.2898.128.camel@pokoyo.tan.russellsharpe.com> References: <200901070238.n072bWQr026537@dewey.classiccmp.org> <49666BBF.4030002@softjar.se> <1231500354.2898.128.camel@pokoyo.tan.russellsharpe.com> Message-ID: > From: toby at coreware.co.uk > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 11:25:54 +0000 > Subject: Re: PDP-11/05 returns to life > > I've tried out this chasing lights code on the 11/05: > > ... snip ... > > Finally, I have a choice of RX21 + RX02 or RX11 + RX01 > on the 11/05. Beyond the added pain of having to toggle in > a longer bootstrap on the RX02, is there any reason not to > go with the RX21/RX02 combo? > > Thanks, > Toby The only thing that pops into my mind is that RX211 uses "DMA" and RX11 does not. That means that for the RX211, the NPG chain must be cut (the wire between pins CA1-CB1) of the slot that will have the RX211. For the RX11 that wire must be present. If it is not, the system may hang. That depends on whether the module connects these two pins. Some SPC modules do this, some do not ... An other reason to go for RX02 is that with RX02 you can also read RX01 formatted floppies. The RX02 drive has internally a switch to act as an RX01. It is ovbious that you can not read RX02 formatted floppies with the RX01 drive. And RX02 offers twice the capacity of RX01 ... If I am wrong in any of this, please correct me :-) - Henk. From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Fri Jan 9 08:31:41 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 09:31:41 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/05 returns to life References: <200901070238.n072bWQr026537@dewey.classiccmp.org> <49666BBF.4030002@softjar.se> <1231500354.2898.128.camel@pokoyo.tan.russellsharpe.com> Message-ID: <18791.24525.708314.402928@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tobias" == Tobias Russell writes: Tobias> On the operating system front, I've built an RT11 v4 RX01 Tobias> image on SIMH, but its refusing to work with 16KW of memory Tobias> (using SJ). Does anyone have any tips for minimizing the Tobias> memory requirements on RT-11? Strange for SJ to be so bloated... I haven't used that recent a version. I do remember that SJ ran fine in 8 kW back in version 2.0. That's a pre-DCL version (it has PDP-10 like command lines). If you can find one that might be a good one to try. paul From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 9 10:19:17 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 11:19:17 -0500 Subject: Memory/cache on the 11/70 In-Reply-To: <200901090347.12788.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <495A0906.6050206@softjar.se> <495BB942.9030409@jetnet.ab.ca> <03bb01c96b82$6f22ec50$46fea8c0@DeskJara> <200901090347.12788.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <7B616B69-5B4B-468E-BB04-A68EA50D3D70@neurotica.com> On Jan 9, 2009, at 3:47 AM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> You have many ways to go. Old Pentium cache is 128K X 4 in a >> very small >> SMD package. But you can get 32X8 in DIP packages which will be >> free for >> asking anywhere. > > 32kx8 sounds like a real handy size for some of the things that I'd > like to > do, with z80 and similar 8-bit parts. > > Any suggestions as to where I might find some welcomed. I have > 2kx8 and 8kx8 > parts, but nothing bigger. > > Maybe I should look on my old 486 boards? Why bother? 6264 and 62256 chips are extremely common and much more "standard". They go for a few dollars a tube all day long on eBay. And, should you ever decide to "go that way" with a design, they're also readily available in SMT packages. Standard chips good. Weird chips from the PC world, bad. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jan 9 10:52:59 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 11:52:59 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Message-ID: Next on the Cavalcade of Junk is a plotter for the TRS-80 - model FP-215. This is a parallel port controlled device, capable of drawing on an 8.5 by 11 inch sheet. The cable and manual are included. It powers up and goes thru the self test OK. It is dirty, but really not bad under all the dust. It is a bit heavy. Best offer over sixteen cents plus shipping and packing. -- Will From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Jan 9 10:55:35 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 16:55:35 +0000 Subject: PDP-11/05 returns to life In-Reply-To: References: <200901070238.n072bWQr026537@dewey.classiccmp.org> <49666BBF.4030002@softjar.se> <1231500354.2898.128.camel@pokoyo.tan.russellsharpe.com> Message-ID: <49678187.4010405@dunnington.plus.com> On 09/01/2009 14:24, Henk Gooijen wrote: >> From: toby at coreware.co.uk >> Finally, I have a choice of RX21 + RX02 or RX11 + RX01 >> on the 11/05. Beyond the added pain of having to toggle in >> a longer bootstrap on the RX02, is there any reason not to >> go with the RX21/RX02 combo? > An other reason to go for RX02 is that with RX02 you can also > read RX01 formatted floppies. The RX02 drive has internally > a switch to act as an RX01. It is ovbious that you can not > read RX02 formatted floppies with the RX01 drive. The switch -- if you're referring to the small 2-position DIP switch -- is only used if you want to connect an RX02 drive unit to an RX11 controller, as if it were an RX01 drive unit (it's also used to set how the RX02 behaves for an RX8 controller). You don't need to change it to read RX01-format floppies in the RX02 connected to an RX211. If you do change it, the RX02 won't work properly with the RX211 any more! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From uban at ubanproductions.com Fri Jan 9 10:55:56 2009 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 10:55:56 -0600 Subject: NCCC - Sunfire V100 / Solaris In-Reply-To: <49664EAD.BB843518@cs.ubc.ca> References: <1231431249.1216.35.camel@spasmo> <49664EAD.BB843518@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4967819C.6080009@ubanproductions.com> Sorry about the lack of true classic computing content to this question, but it does relate to a little bit older machine, a Sunfire V100... I purchased one of these from eBay in hopes of possibly upgrading my home firewall and discovered that the machine has a Lights-Out- Management (LOM) CPU controlling the main UltraSPARC IIi processor. The LOM runs a monitor program (LOMlite) which on this particular machine is currently configured to require a login/password when communicating with the machine over the console serial port. >From seemingly endless google searching, it sounds like I should be able to break out of the LOMlite login/password cycle by resetting the machine with the JP13 jumper. When I do this, LOM is reset, a few seemingly ok diagnostic messages are emitted, and then the login password are again requested. I was unable to determine if there is some sort of default login password. The only path seems to be to possibly load the PATA IDE hard drive with Solaris, and then use the Solaris tools to reset the LOM setup. Does anyone on this list have any experience with this machine? --tnx --tom From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Jan 9 11:00:32 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 09:00:32 -0800 Subject: PDP-11/05 returns to life In-Reply-To: <49678187.4010405@dunnington.plus.com> References: <200901070238.n072bWQr026537@dewey.classiccmp.org> <49666BBF.4030002@softjar.se> <1231500354.2898.128.camel@pokoyo.tan.russellsharpe.com> , <49678187.4010405@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: Word. I routinely read and write RX01 disks for our VAX-11 on a PDP-11/03 with an RX02 drive. The only trick: for a new disk, FORMAT/SINGLEDENSITY, then INIT. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pete Turnbull [pete at dunnington.plus.com] Sent: Friday, January 09, 2009 8:55 AM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: PDP-11/05 returns to life On 09/01/2009 14:24, Henk Gooijen wrote: >> From: toby at coreware.co.uk >> Finally, I have a choice of RX21 + RX02 or RX11 + RX01 >> on the 11/05. Beyond the added pain of having to toggle in >> a longer bootstrap on the RX02, is there any reason not to >> go with the RX21/RX02 combo? > An other reason to go for RX02 is that with RX02 you can also > read RX01 formatted floppies. The RX02 drive has internally > a switch to act as an RX01. It is ovbious that you can not > read RX02 formatted floppies with the RX01 drive. The switch -- if you're referring to the small 2-position DIP switch -- is only used if you want to connect an RX02 drive unit to an RX11 controller, as if it were an RX01 drive unit (it's also used to set how the RX02 behaves for an RX8 controller). You don't need to change it to read RX01-format floppies in the RX02 connected to an RX211. If you do change it, the RX02 won't work properly with the RX211 any more! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Jan 9 11:08:52 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 12:08:52 -0500 Subject: Memory/cache on the 11/70 In-Reply-To: <7B616B69-5B4B-468E-BB04-A68EA50D3D70@neurotica.com> References: <495A0906.6050206@softjar.se> <200901090347.12788.rtellason@verizon.net> <7B616B69-5B4B-468E-BB04-A68EA50D3D70@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200901091208.52921.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 09 January 2009 11:19:17 am Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jan 9, 2009, at 3:47 AM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >> You have many ways to go. Old Pentium cache is 128K X 4 in a > >> very small > >> SMD package. But you can get 32X8 in DIP packages which will be > >> free for > >> asking anywhere. > > > > 32kx8 sounds like a real handy size for some of the things that I'd > > like to > > do, with z80 and similar 8-bit parts. > > > > Any suggestions as to where I might find some welcomed. I have > > 2kx8 and 8kx8 > > parts, but nothing bigger. > > > > Maybe I should look on my old 486 boards? > > Why bother? 6264 and 62256 chips are extremely common and much > more "standard". They go for a few dollars a tube all day long on > eBay. Well, maybe I oughta look there, then. I haven't bothered with them for the most part... > And, should you ever decide to "go that way" with a design, > they're also readily available in SMT packages. Not likely. > Standard chips good. Weird chips from the PC world, bad. Yup. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Jan 9 11:53:44 2009 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 11:53:44 -0600 Subject: Q-Bus cards for sale Message-ID: <51ea77730901090953g675856b8m7ec78202785dccde@mail.gmail.com> I'm going to start unloading some of my pile of accumulated DEC cards. They are mostly QBus. Some common ones will be offered up here cheaply. Some will be placed on the dreaded eBay. Here is the first listing, a Q-Bus RTC, with more to come: http://shop.ebay.com/merchant/dev*null Thanks for looking -j From trag at io.com Fri Jan 9 12:21:27 2009 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 12:21:27 -0600 (CST) Subject: 29F512 flash memory In-Reply-To: <200901091800.n09I0WjK088154@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901091800.n09I0WjK088154@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <3251e017c4238d3087fdbedf041c61c9.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com> > Date: Thu, 8 Jan 2009 13:11:31 -0500 > From: "Danny Pham" > I'm using ChipMax programmer to flash EPROM 29F512 and for some reasons, > it > doesn't flash the program. Is there anything that you think I'm doing > something wrong? Please give me some advises. Are your chips DIP or PLCC? I ask because if you are using PLCC chips with an adapter, you may have the wrong adapter. The pinout relationship between DIP and PLCC is different for the 512Kb chips than it is for the 1 Mb chips. So a 32 pin PLCC to DIP adapter for 1 Mb flash will not work with 32 pin PLCC 512Kb chip. If it's not that, I can't help you. I'm not familiar with the ChipMax. I use a Needham. Oh, in general, make sure you have the correct make and manufacturer specified. Some of the Flash chips have a reset pin which must be tied high or they won't operate. Others don't, so getting the proper make and model selected in your software can be essential to getting your programmer to handle the reset pin properly (if present). Jeff Walther From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Fri Jan 9 13:28:13 2009 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 20:28:13 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/05 returns to life In-Reply-To: <49678187.4010405@dunnington.plus.com> References: <200901070238.n072bWQr026537@dewey.classiccmp.org> <49666BBF.4030002@softjar.se> <1231500354.2898.128.camel@pokoyo.tan.russellsharpe.com> <49678187.4010405@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: > Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 16:55:35 +0000 > From: pete at dunnington.plus.com > To: > Subject: Re: PDP-11/05 returns to life > > On 09/01/2009 14:24, Henk Gooijen wrote: >>> From: toby at coreware.co.uk > >>> Finally, I have a choice of RX21 + RX02 or RX11 + RX01 >>> on the 11/05. Beyond the added pain of having to toggle in >>> a longer bootstrap on the RX02, is there any reason not to >>> go with the RX21/RX02 combo? > >> An other reason to go for RX02 is that with RX02 you can also >> read RX01 formatted floppies. The RX02 drive has internally >> a switch to act as an RX01. It is ovbious that you can not >> read RX02 formatted floppies with the RX01 drive. > > The switch -- if you're referring to the small 2-position DIP switch -- > is only used if you want to connect an RX02 drive unit to an RX11 > controller, as if it were an RX01 drive unit (it's also used to set how > the RX02 behaves for an RX8 controller). You don't need to change it to > read RX01-format floppies in the RX02 connected to an RX211. If you do > change it, the RX02 won't work properly with the RX211 any more! > > -- > > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York OK! Thanks Pete. I have read about that switch, have seen it, but never tried it. This is not completely what I thought. See, on this list you can learn every day something new about old stuff :-) - Henk. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 9 14:10:04 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 20:10:04 +0000 (GMT) Subject: more housecleaning -- floppy disk manuals In-Reply-To: <4966465B.19592.C57FC1D@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 8, 9 06:30:51 pm Message-ID: > > On 8 Jan 2009 at 18:48, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I think there must have been. Didn;t the Commodore 8050 use 100tpi > > drives? In which case the 8250LP ('Low Profile') and I guess the PET > > 8296D (Intenral drives, basically an 8296 and 8250LP built into one > > case) must have used half-height 100tpi drives. > > Stock electronics or "Commodore" style drive electronics? I don't > know much about these specific units. Oh, very much Commodore electronics. In the 8250LP there's a long, thin PCB between the 2 drives that contains all the 'analogue' electronics for them (read/write chain, etc). And of course the Commodore controller board wit a pair of 6502s on top. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 9 13:59:09 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 19:59:09 +0000 (GMT) Subject: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: <49665BB7.8090105@axeside.co.uk> from "Philip Belben" at Jan 8, 9 08:01:59 pm Message-ID: > You can probably make do without REN, too. The PET has it tied to There would be no reason for the disk unit to _drive_ REN (or to drive ATN or IFC for that matter), since the disk unit will never be a controller. I am not sure if HP disk units need to be able to read the state of REN. Certainly HP machines do use it, but I can't think of any good reason why a disk unit would want to be not controlled remotely. > ground, i.e. permanently asserted, for a start. Just assume it's > asserted and you won't go far wrong! Be careful making assumptions like that if you're talking to HP machines. HP wrote the stnadards for HPIB, and they also have been known to bend them :-). I am told for example, it's impossible to use a 9914 HPIB chip in an HP-compatible drive unit (althoguh it can be used -- and was used by HP -- in a computer to talk to said drive units). -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jan 9 14:35:27 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 15:35:27 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/05 returns to life In-Reply-To: References: <200901070238.n072bWQr026537@dewey.classiccmp.org> <49666BBF.4030002@softjar.se> <1231500354.2898.128.camel@pokoyo.tan.russellsharpe.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 9, 2009 at 9:24 AM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > >> From: toby at coreware.co.uk >> Subject: Re: PDP-11/05 returns to life >> Finally, I have a choice of RX21 + RX02 or RX11 + RX01 >> ... is there any reason not to go with the RX21/RX02 combo? > > The only thing that pops into my mind is that RX211 uses > "DMA" and RX11 does not. That means that for the RX211, the > NPG chain must be cut (the wire between pins CA1-CB1) of > the slot that will have the RX211. For the RX11 that wire > must be present. If it is not, the system may hang. > That depends on whether the module connects these two pins. > Some SPC modules do this, some do not ... I have seen plenty of older quad SPCs that do not use NPR have a manually-added NPR jumper in case they are installed in a slot with the wire removed. Newer SPCs frequently had that in copper. I frequently get tripped up by this since where I learned about the Unibus, we routinely removed *all* NPR jumpers and used our own dual-height grant cards with NPR (and never used DEC G727 single-height INTR-only grants). It makes reconfiguration easy, until you get a fresh backplane in a BA-11 and can't figure out why things are hanging. > An other reason to go for RX02 is that with RX02 you can also > read RX01 formatted floppies. The RX02 drive has internally > a switch to act as an RX01. It is ovbious that you can not > read RX02 formatted floppies with the RX01 drive. > > And RX02 offers twice the capacity of RX01 ... > > If I am wrong in any of this, please correct me :-) Nope... all correct as far as I can see. -ethan From quapla at xs4all.nl Fri Jan 9 14:38:48 2009 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 21:38:48 +0100 (CET) Subject: NCCC - Sunfire V100 / Solaris Message-ID: <18141.62.140.137.30.1231533528.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Tom, Best way is to install Solrais 8, 9 or 10. Then install the SUNWlomu, SUNWlomr & SUNWlomm packages followed by patch 110208-22. Then use the lom tool to manipulate the lom config to your likings. BTW, the patch has the latest firmware for the lom, so you can also upgrade it if wanted. Regards, Ed > Sorry about the lack of true classic computing content to this > question, but it does relate to a little bit older machine, a > Sunfire V100... > > I purchased one of these from eBay in hopes of possibly upgrading > my home firewall and discovered that the machine has a Lights-Out- > Management (LOM) CPU controlling the main UltraSPARC IIi processor. > The LOM runs a monitor program (LOMlite) which on this particular > machine is currently configured to require a login/password when > communicating with the machine over the console serial port. > >>From seemingly endless google searching, it sounds like I should be > able to break out of the LOMlite login/password cycle by resetting > the machine with the JP13 jumper. When I do this, LOM is reset, a > few seemingly ok diagnostic messages are emitted, and then the login > password are again requested. > > I was unable to determine if there is some sort of default login > password. > > The only path seems to be to possibly load the PATA IDE hard drive > with Solaris, and then use the Solaris tools to reset the LOM setup. > > Does anyone on this list have any experience with this machine? > > --tnx > --tom > From uban at ubanproductions.com Fri Jan 9 14:44:49 2009 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 14:44:49 -0600 Subject: NCCC - Sunfire V100 / Solaris In-Reply-To: <18141.62.140.137.30.1231533528.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <18141.62.140.137.30.1231533528.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4967B741.4060201@ubanproductions.com> Ed, Thanks, I new somebody on this list would have something useful to say about this problem. I ordered a copy of Solaris 10 with this in mind and so my last questions (at this time) are will I be able to use the installation CD without knowing the LOMlite login and password? Will it boot the CD by default when I manually power on the machine? Will I be able see and control the console? --tnx --tom Ed Groenenberg wrote: > Tom, > > Best way is to install Solrais 8, 9 or 10. > Then install the SUNWlomu, SUNWlomr & SUNWlomm packages > followed by patch 110208-22. Then use the lom tool to > manipulate the lom config to your likings. > BTW, the patch has the latest firmware for the lom, so you > can also upgrade it if wanted. > > Regards, > > Ed > >> Sorry about the lack of true classic computing content to this >> question, but it does relate to a little bit older machine, a >> Sunfire V100... >> >> I purchased one of these from eBay in hopes of possibly upgrading >> my home firewall and discovered that the machine has a Lights-Out- >> Management (LOM) CPU controlling the main UltraSPARC IIi processor. >> The LOM runs a monitor program (LOMlite) which on this particular >> machine is currently configured to require a login/password when >> communicating with the machine over the console serial port. >> >> >From seemingly endless google searching, it sounds like I should be >> able to break out of the LOMlite login/password cycle by resetting >> the machine with the JP13 jumper. When I do this, LOM is reset, a >> few seemingly ok diagnostic messages are emitted, and then the login >> password are again requested. >> >> I was unable to determine if there is some sort of default login >> password. >> >> The only path seems to be to possibly load the PATA IDE hard drive >> with Solaris, and then use the Solaris tools to reset the LOM setup. >> >> Does anyone on this list have any experience with this machine? >> >> --tnx >> --tom >> > > > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jan 9 14:55:31 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 15:55:31 -0500 Subject: Memory/cache on the 11/70 In-Reply-To: <7B616B69-5B4B-468E-BB04-A68EA50D3D70@neurotica.com> References: <495A0906.6050206@softjar.se> <495BB942.9030409@jetnet.ab.ca> <03bb01c96b82$6f22ec50$46fea8c0@DeskJara> <200901090347.12788.rtellason@verizon.net> <7B616B69-5B4B-468E-BB04-A68EA50D3D70@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 9, 2009 at 11:19 AM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jan 9, 2009, at 3:47 AM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> 32kx8 sounds like a real handy size for some of the things that I'd like >> to do, with z80 and similar 8-bit parts. >> >> Any suggestions as to where I might find some welcomed. I have 2kx8 and >> 8kx8 parts, but nothing bigger. >> >> Maybe I should look on my old 486 boards? > > Why bother? 6264 and 62256 chips are extremely common and much more > "standard". They go for a few dollars a tube all day long on eBay. And, > should you ever decide to "go that way" with a design, they're also readily > available in SMT packages. True. > Standard chips good. Weird chips from the PC world, bad. I'm not advocating the reuse of SMT 128K cache chips, but the 32Kx8 DIP chips from old motherboards have a JEDEC-compatible pinout (they might designate various data or address bits in a different order, but for RAM it's irrelevant), and are only 0.3" wide (meaning you can use two 14-pin sockets rather than having to buy yet another footprint). I've seen more than one hobby design that had a 0.6" footprint for a 62256 _and_ narrow pads for a 0.3"-cache SRAM (and even with SMT pads inside that). It's possible to be flexible for no significant extra effort. The DIP cache SRAMs are no longer cheap-as-chips, but some of us have a tube or two stashed away and I sure don't mind using them for non-battery-powered circuits. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 9 15:03:34 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 16:03:34 -0500 Subject: Memory/cache on the 11/70 In-Reply-To: References: <495A0906.6050206@softjar.se> <495BB942.9030409@jetnet.ab.ca> <03bb01c96b82$6f22ec50$46fea8c0@DeskJara> <200901090347.12788.rtellason@verizon.net> <7B616B69-5B4B-468E-BB04-A68EA50D3D70@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <0E94B9EF-6A41-476A-8944-50B90E4B7AE7@neurotica.com> On Jan 9, 2009, at 3:55 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> Standard chips good. Weird chips from the PC world, bad. > > I'm not advocating the reuse of SMT 128K cache chips, but the 32Kx8 > DIP chips from old motherboards have a JEDEC-compatible pinout (they > might designate various data or address bits in a different order, but > for RAM it's irrelevant), and are only 0.3" wide (meaning you can use > two 14-pin sockets rather than having to buy yet another footprint). Hence, they're not "weird chips". =) It's the weird ones I'm worried about. > I've seen more than one hobby design that had a 0.6" footprint for a > 62256 _and_ narrow pads for a 0.3"-cache SRAM (and even with SMT pads > inside that). It's possible to be flexible for no significant extra > effort. That's very nice indeed. > The DIP cache SRAMs are no longer cheap-as-chips, but some of us have > a tube or two stashed away and I sure don't mind using them for > non-battery-powered circuits. The JEDEC ones, or the "weird" ones? I see some from time to time, and I grab them if they're "standard" enough. I got a pair of really 20ns nice cache SRAMs on eBay last year, Paradigm PDM41256SAs. Despite their seemingly familiar part number, they are 32kx8 SRAMs, not 256kx1 DRAMs. They're in 0.3" ceramic 24-pin DIPs. I'm saving them for a "pretty" Z80 SBC that I'll be building soon, on which all chips are ceramic. (I've always had a great love for ceramic chip packages, and I grab useful ceramic-packed chips whenever I can) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From quapla at xs4all.nl Fri Jan 9 15:18:34 2009 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 22:18:34 +0100 (CET) Subject: NCCC - Sunfire V100 / Solaris Message-ID: <4487.62.140.137.30.1231535914.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Hello Tom, you do not really need the lom, just use the button on the back to power it on. You could also go to 'docs.sun.com' there's a ton of documentation. Take a look at book '816-2756' this should bring you up to speed. I use a V120, but it's been a while since I had to fiddle around with the lom Regards, Ed > Ed, > > Thanks, I new somebody on this list would have something useful > to say about this problem. I ordered a copy of Solaris 10 with > this in mind and so my last questions (at this time) are will I be > able to use the installation CD without knowing the LOMlite login > and password? Will it boot the CD by default when I manually power > on the machine? Will I be able see and control the console? > > --tnx > --tom > > Ed Groenenberg wrote: >> Tom, >> >> Best way is to install Solrais 8, 9 or 10. >> Then install the SUNWlomu, SUNWlomr & SUNWlomm packages >> followed by patch 110208-22. Then use the lom tool to >> manipulate the lom config to your likings. >> BTW, the patch has the latest firmware for the lom, so you >> can also upgrade it if wanted. >> >> Regards, >> >> Ed >> >>> Sorry about the lack of true classic computing content to this >>> question, but it does relate to a little bit older machine, a >>> Sunfire V100... >>> >>> I purchased one of these from eBay in hopes of possibly upgrading >>> my home firewall and discovered that the machine has a Lights-Out- >>> Management (LOM) CPU controlling the main UltraSPARC IIi processor. >>> The LOM runs a monitor program (LOMlite) which on this particular >>> machine is currently configured to require a login/password when >>> communicating with the machine over the console serial port. >>> >>> >From seemingly endless google searching, it sounds like I should be >>> able to break out of the LOMlite login/password cycle by resetting >>> the machine with the JP13 jumper. When I do this, LOM is reset, a >>> few seemingly ok diagnostic messages are emitted, and then the login >>> password are again requested. >>> >>> I was unable to determine if there is some sort of default login >>> password. >>> >>> The only path seems to be to possibly load the PATA IDE hard drive >>> with Solaris, and then use the Solaris tools to reset the LOM setup. >>> >>> Does anyone on this list have any experience with this machine? >>> >>> --tnx >>> --tom >>> >> >> >> >> > > From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Jan 9 15:21:56 2009 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 15:21:56 -0600 Subject: DEC Direct Sales Catalog In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730901072054o4cc5c74fi5143905821fc145@mail.gmail.com> <49661E85.7030108@pacbell.net> <49662EF8.7080109@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <51ea77730901091321t57df77a8see9e6f080d6c24d1@mail.gmail.com> Sooo......no one has this book out there, then? If not, I will consider it at least "rare" and do what I can to preserve it as intact as possible. We have a print shop at work that could probably rebind it for me, although I'd still consider that sub-optimal, as I would lose the spine printing, but it may be the best I can do. I think the info contained in this catalog is valuable enough to the DEC collector community that it warrants it. As for automated book scanning, that is not in my budget, nor do I have the lego skills required ;) Is there a master list of documentation archive sites out there somewhere? There is bitsavers, vt100.net, 1000bit, and at least a couple others I've seen mentioned on this list. Perhaps someone should start a Wikipedia article or something similarly centralized so such a list could be collected. It would be handy not only for the obvious, but also for folks like me to make sure that they are not re-scanning something that's already out there. From uban at ubanproductions.com Fri Jan 9 15:27:48 2009 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 15:27:48 -0600 Subject: NCCC - Sunfire V100 / Solaris In-Reply-To: <4487.62.140.137.30.1231535914.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <4487.62.140.137.30.1231535914.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <4967C154.1030700@ubanproductions.com> Hi Ed, How do I access the Solaris console without going through LOM? Best, --tom Ed Groenenberg wrote: > Hello Tom, > > you do not really need the lom, just use the button on the back > to power it on. > You could also go to 'docs.sun.com' there's a ton of documentation. > Take a look at book '816-2756' this should bring you up to speed. > > I use a V120, but it's been a while since I had to fiddle around > with the lom > > Regards, > > Ed > >> Ed, >> >> Thanks, I new somebody on this list would have something useful >> to say about this problem. I ordered a copy of Solaris 10 with >> this in mind and so my last questions (at this time) are will I be >> able to use the installation CD without knowing the LOMlite login >> and password? Will it boot the CD by default when I manually power >> on the machine? Will I be able see and control the console? >> >> --tnx >> --tom >> >> Ed Groenenberg wrote: >>> Tom, >>> >>> Best way is to install Solrais 8, 9 or 10. >>> Then install the SUNWlomu, SUNWlomr & SUNWlomm packages >>> followed by patch 110208-22. Then use the lom tool to >>> manipulate the lom config to your likings. >>> BTW, the patch has the latest firmware for the lom, so you >>> can also upgrade it if wanted. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Ed >>> >>>> Sorry about the lack of true classic computing content to this >>>> question, but it does relate to a little bit older machine, a >>>> Sunfire V100... >>>> >>>> I purchased one of these from eBay in hopes of possibly upgrading >>>> my home firewall and discovered that the machine has a Lights-Out- >>>> Management (LOM) CPU controlling the main UltraSPARC IIi processor. >>>> The LOM runs a monitor program (LOMlite) which on this particular >>>> machine is currently configured to require a login/password when >>>> communicating with the machine over the console serial port. >>>> >>>> >From seemingly endless google searching, it sounds like I should be >>>> able to break out of the LOMlite login/password cycle by resetting >>>> the machine with the JP13 jumper. When I do this, LOM is reset, a >>>> few seemingly ok diagnostic messages are emitted, and then the login >>>> password are again requested. >>>> >>>> I was unable to determine if there is some sort of default login >>>> password. >>>> >>>> The only path seems to be to possibly load the PATA IDE hard drive >>>> with Solaris, and then use the Solaris tools to reset the LOM setup. >>>> >>>> Does anyone on this list have any experience with this machine? >>>> >>>> --tnx >>>> --tom >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > > > From ray at arachelian.com Fri Jan 9 15:44:33 2009 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 16:44:33 -0500 Subject: Mac 400k floppy drive alignment? In-Reply-To: References: <49611D16.9040802@mail.msu.edu> <4965A906.2020005@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4967C541.8040102@arachelian.com> Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Josh Dersch > Sent: Wednesday, January 07, 2009 11:20 PM > > >> Thanks for the advice. After a few hours' fiddling I've got the drive >> reading/writing reliably. Now to find some 400k images of mac software >> that'll run on a 128k :). >> > > One of these days one of my tuits will be other than rhomboidal, and I'll put > System 7.5 on the 6100 in my storage locker (since that's the last version of > Mac OS that will deal with 400K disks) to run disk copy Untrue. I've both created and read 400K disk images with Disk Copy (and DART) on various PPC machines running upto OS 9. This includes some Powerbooks as well as a TAM and and 7100. You do not need System 7.5. All that's required is Disk Copy and a SuperDrive or 800K floppy drive. (USB floppy drives will not work.) If you wish to read the files on MFS you need System 6 (or MFS lives on OS X). From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Jan 9 15:56:44 2009 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 15:56:44 -0600 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20090109155553.07c6f4d0@mail.threedee.com> http://ztrek.blogspot.com/2008/12/dr-dobbs-soon-to-become-monthly-section.html - John From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jan 9 16:59:39 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 17:59:39 -0500 Subject: Memory/cache on the 11/70 In-Reply-To: <0E94B9EF-6A41-476A-8944-50B90E4B7AE7@neurotica.com> References: <495A0906.6050206@softjar.se> <495BB942.9030409@jetnet.ab.ca> <03bb01c96b82$6f22ec50$46fea8c0@DeskJara> <200901090347.12788.rtellason@verizon.net> <7B616B69-5B4B-468E-BB04-A68EA50D3D70@neurotica.com> <0E94B9EF-6A41-476A-8944-50B90E4B7AE7@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 9, 2009 at 4:03 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jan 9, 2009, at 3:55 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> >>> Standard chips good. Weird chips from the PC world, bad. >> >> I'm not advocating the reuse of SMT 128K cache chips, but the 32Kx8 >> DIP chips from old motherboards have a JEDEC-compatible pinout... > > Hence, they're not "weird chips". =) It's the weird ones I'm worried > about. OK. I think we are on the same side here ;-) >> I've seen more than one hobby design that had a 0.6" footprint for a >> 62256 _and_ narrow pads for a 0.3"-cache SRAM (and even with SMT pads >> inside that). It's possible to be flexible for no significant extra >> effort. > > That's very nice indeed. Yeah... the one that comes to mind with three footprints is a common-in-the-CBM-world hobby add-on that sits in the 6502 socket and provides up to 32K of RAM and up to 32K of (flash) ROM for use in 8K PETs, 1541 drives, or pretty much most of the 8-bit CBM line. It's great for multiple ROM sets, bypassing C= drilled "upgrade prevention" holes in 16/32K boards, flaky RAM or ROM sockets, etc. For the RAM bit, just pick your footprint and drop in a RAM chip. >> The DIP cache SRAMs are no longer cheap-as-chips, but some of us have >> a tube or two stashed away and I sure don't mind using them for >> non-battery-powered circuits. > > The JEDEC ones, or the "weird" ones? JEDEC ones - I don't have the time to untangle wierd ones. > I see some from time to time, and I > grab them if they're "standard" enough. I got a pair of really 20ns nice > cache SRAMs on eBay last year, Paradigm PDM41256SAs. Despite their > seemingly familiar part number, they are 32kx8 SRAMs, not 256kx1 DRAMs. > They're in 0.3" ceramic 24-pin DIPs. I'm saving them for a "pretty" Z80 > SBC that I'll be building soon, on which all chips are ceramic. (I've > always had a great love for ceramic chip packages, and I grab useful > ceramic-packed chips whenever I can) Nice. Sounds like it'll have great presentation value. You have purple ceramic for the VLSI or just grey? -ethan > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > > From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Jan 9 17:00:33 2009 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 18:00:33 -0500 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20090109155553.07c6f4d0@mail.threedee.com> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20090109155553.07c6f4d0@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: <24517.1231542033@mini> John Foust wrote: > >http://ztrek.blogspot.com/2008/12/dr-dobbs-soon-to-become-monthly-section.html sad, but not surprising. it was getting thinner and thinner. I remember the first few newsprint editions. It inspired me to stop by the PCC on a trip out to the west coast. I'll never forget the pilot interpreter written in basic, the source printed for anyone to read. I found it inspiring at the time. I'm going to miss the last page. Almost as much fun as reading Mac the knife in MacWeek or Cringely's column (or worse, being *in* them :-) Michael Swaine was always fun to talk to at parties. -brad From jtp at chinalake.com Fri Jan 9 17:17:36 2009 From: jtp at chinalake.com (J. Peterson) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 18:17:36 -0500 Subject: 2 DLT III cleaning tapes free for the cost of shipping In-Reply-To: <200901090613.n096DohX074368@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901090613.n096DohX074368@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4967DB10.3090201@chinalake.com> Two DLT III cleaning tapes. One has been used once (on a clean drive), the other is unused as far as I know. Free for the cost of shipping from US 01888. Cheers, -J From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 9 17:35:53 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 15:35:53 -0800 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: <24517.1231542033@mini> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20090109155553.07c6f4d0@mail.threedee.com>, <24517.1231542033@mini> Message-ID: <49676ED9.29118.DE7353@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Jan 2009 at 18:00, Brad Parker wrote: > > John Foust wrote: > > > >http://ztrek.blogspot.com/2008/12/dr-dobbs-soon-to-become-monthly-section.html > > sad, but not surprising. it was getting thinner and thinner. The same can be said for most trade journals. EDN, Electronic Design, EETimes are all shadows of their former glory. Didn't WDJ get rolled into DDJ some time ago? It's been some time since I've read one anyway... Cheers, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 9 18:33:58 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 19:33:58 -0500 Subject: Memory/cache on the 11/70 In-Reply-To: References: <495A0906.6050206@softjar.se> <495BB942.9030409@jetnet.ab.ca> <03bb01c96b82$6f22ec50$46fea8c0@DeskJara> <200901090347.12788.rtellason@verizon.net> <7B616B69-5B4B-468E-BB04-A68EA50D3D70@neurotica.com> <0E94B9EF-6A41-476A-8944-50B90E4B7AE7@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <08724E72-38B8-4CAE-B8D3-543762C5007C@neurotica.com> On Jan 9, 2009, at 5:59 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>>> Standard chips good. Weird chips from the PC world, bad. >>> >>> I'm not advocating the reuse of SMT 128K cache chips, but the 32Kx8 >>> DIP chips from old motherboards have a JEDEC-compatible pinout... >> >> Hence, they're not "weird chips". =) It's the weird ones I'm >> worried >> about. > > OK. I think we are on the same side here ;-) We usually are. :) >>> The DIP cache SRAMs are no longer cheap-as-chips, but some of us >>> have >>> a tube or two stashed away and I sure don't mind using them for >>> non-battery-powered circuits. >> >> The JEDEC ones, or the "weird" ones? > > JEDEC ones - I don't have the time to untangle wierd ones. Yeah. The weird SRAMs that the SBC6120 uses are PC cache chips too, aren't they? They've become pretty tough to find in recent years. I really like that they're four bits wide, though, for that application. >> I see some from time to time, and I >> grab them if they're "standard" enough. I got a pair of really >> 20ns nice >> cache SRAMs on eBay last year, Paradigm PDM41256SAs. Despite their >> seemingly familiar part number, they are 32kx8 SRAMs, not 256kx1 >> DRAMs. >> They're in 0.3" ceramic 24-pin DIPs. I'm saving them for a >> "pretty" Z80 >> SBC that I'll be building soon, on which all chips are ceramic. >> (I've >> always had a great love for ceramic chip packages, and I grab useful >> ceramic-packed chips whenever I can) > > Nice. Sounds like it'll have great presentation value. Thanks, I think so too. And it'll weigh a few pounds! :) > You have purple ceramic for the VLSI or just grey? I've got the Z80 CPU, CTC, SIO, and PIO chips in purple/gold. I've got some purple/gold SRAMs, but not quite enough for this project. Chuck has some medium-density purple/gold 16Kbx1 SRAMs that I'm thinking about trying to talk him out of. If I don't go that route, I'll probably use those Paradigm gray ceramic SRAMs. I'll do the address decoding and other sundry stuff in a ceramic UV-erasable PAL22V10, of which I have a few tubes. I also have some HP intelligent hex displays, along the lines of the TIL-311, I'm sure you've seen them. Most of them are encapsulated in red injection-molded plastic, but I have a handful of fairly rare 5082-7359s, which are hermetically-sealed purple ceramic with a glass cover. They are absolutely gorgeous. I'll probably put the board between two 0.25" pieces of lucite. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bryan.pope at comcast.net Sat Jan 10 00:05:30 2009 From: bryan.pope at comcast.net (Bryan Pope) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 01:05:30 -0500 Subject: Arcades becoming extinct.. Message-ID: <49683AAA.8040809@comcast.net> .. if they haven't already! :-( I used to always go to this arcade when I was in Toronto (Funland Arcade on Younge Street)... http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_19730.aspx Now its gone.. :-( http://arcadeheroes.com/2008/07/10/funland-arcade-in-toronto-canada-closing-in-a-few-days-hurry-if-you-want-to-play-a-game-there/ http://www.thestar.com/comment/columnists/article/453843 Syd Bolton of the Personal Computer Museum ( http://www.pcmuseum.ca/ ) of Brantford, Ontario on the last day: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxA2WRqtUkk Cheers, Bryan From evan at snarc.net Sat Jan 10 01:36:57 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 07:36:57 +0000 Subject: Arcades becoming extinct.. Message-ID: <2039849250-1231573022-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1564703413-@bxe146.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Sad indeed. Brings back happy memories though of my own childhood arcade in a room at the local bowling alley. The arcade is long gone ... and the bowling alley is a Pathmark. Mark my words ... if MARCH ever gets massive H-building space and a steady stream of visitors, then there shall be a legit arcade room!!! ------Original Message------ From: Bryan Pope Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts ReplyTo: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Arcades becoming extinct.. Sent: Jan 10, 2009 1:05 AM .. if they haven't already! :-( I used to always go to this arcade when I was in Toronto (Funland Arcade on Younge Street)... http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_19730.aspx Now its gone.. :-( http://arcadeheroes.com/2008/07/10/funland-arcade-in-toronto-canada-closing-in-a-few-days-hurry-if-you-want-to-play-a-game-there/ http://www.thestar.com/comment/columnists/article/453843 Syd Bolton of the Personal Computer Museum ( http://www.pcmuseum.ca/ ) of Brantford, Ontario on the last day: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxA2WRqtUkk Cheers, Bryan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Jan 10 01:57:32 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 02:57:32 -0500 Subject: Memory/cache on the 11/70 In-Reply-To: <08724E72-38B8-4CAE-B8D3-543762C5007C@neurotica.com> References: <495A0906.6050206@softjar.se> <495BB942.9030409@jetnet.ab.ca> <03bb01c96b82$6f22ec50$46fea8c0@DeskJara> <200901090347.12788.rtellason@verizon.net> <7B616B69-5B4B-468E-BB04-A68EA50D3D70@neurotica.com> <0E94B9EF-6A41-476A-8944-50B90E4B7AE7@neurotica.com> <08724E72-38B8-4CAE-B8D3-543762C5007C@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 9, 2009 at 7:33 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > Yeah. The weird SRAMs that the SBC6120 uses are PC cache chips too, aren't > they? They've become pretty tough to find in recent years. I really like > that they're four bits wide, though, for that application. Those are wierd... I don't think I ever saw a PC motherboard with them, but I really kinda skipped from 8088 boards right to the 486. I think I only had one or two 386s, so there's a gap there for me. > I also have some HP intelligent hex displays, along the lines of the > TIL-311, I'm sure you've seen them. Oh, yeah... I got my start back in the COSMAC Elf days. I have many TIL311s and a few of the HP varieties, too. > Most of them are encapsulated in red > injection-molded plastic, but I have a handful of fairly rare 5082-7359s, > which are hermetically-sealed purple ceramic with a glass cover. They are > absolutely gorgeous. Sounds like. I don't know that I've ever seen that package. > I'll probably put the board between two 0.25" pieces of lucite. Sweet. -ethan From starbase89 at gmail.com Sat Jan 10 03:18:33 2009 From: starbase89 at gmail.com (Joe Giliberti) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 04:18:33 -0500 Subject: Arcades becoming extinct.. In-Reply-To: <2039849250-1231573022-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1564703413-@bxe146.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <2039849250-1231573022-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1564703413-@bxe146.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <2b1f1f550901100118t4a4a41f3x10eb315976a7417e@mail.gmail.com> That would be awesome (if MARCH ever got enough money) There really aren't any well known arcade machines that are in any way affordable. A complete, non working Ms. PacMan, for example, still goes for between $400-$500. On Sat, Jan 10, 2009 at 2:36 AM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Sad indeed. Brings back happy memories though of my own childhood arcade in > a room at the local bowling alley. The arcade is long gone ... and the > bowling alley is a Pathmark. > > Mark my words ... if MARCH ever gets massive H-building space and a steady > stream of visitors, then there shall be a legit arcade room!!! > > ------Original Message------ > From: Bryan Pope > Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > ReplyTo: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Arcades becoming extinct.. > Sent: Jan 10, 2009 1:05 AM > > .. if they haven't already! :-( > > I used to always go to this arcade when I was in Toronto (Funland Arcade > on Younge Street)... > > http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_19730.aspx > > Now its gone.. :-( > > > http://arcadeheroes.com/2008/07/10/funland-arcade-in-toronto-canada-closing-in-a-few-days-hurry-if-you-want-to-play-a-game-there/ > http://www.thestar.com/comment/columnists/article/453843 > > Syd Bolton of the Personal Computer Museum ( http://www.pcmuseum.ca/ ) > of Brantford, Ontario on the last day: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxA2WRqtUkk > > Cheers, > > Bryan > > > > -- "You work with your females, arm them, and force them to wear clothing!" From jgessling at yahoo.com Sat Jan 10 04:21:12 2009 From: jgessling at yahoo.com (James Gessling) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 02:21:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Arcades becoming extinct.. Message-ID: <700230.48631.qm@web31913.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I found one that is alive and well last summer in Swakopmund, Namibia. Great combination of laundrette, bar, and arcade. You can search the internet for "Swakopmund Laundry" if you want more information. Regards, Jim From dstorey at barossafarm.com Fri Jan 9 01:06:17 2009 From: dstorey at barossafarm.com (dstorey at barossafarm.com) Date: Fri, 9 Jan 2009 07:06:17 -0000 (UTC) Subject: RT11 5.07 Message-ID: <34598.83.217.164.110.1231484777.squirrel@www.barossafarm.com> Hi It's been 10 years since Digital ->Compaq ->HP ->Mentec ->Calyx stopped selling RT11. I have been trying to get hold of RT11 v5.07 for hobbyist use. I contacted Calyx, Ireland who told me that they no longer license it and that I should make contact the various groups to see if anyone can help me on an individual (non commercial) basis. Thanks Dominic (pdp11 at barossafarm.com) From jrr at flippers.com Fri Jan 9 11:37:58 2009 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 09:37:58 -0800 Subject: Membrane keyboard connector repair advice? (Osborne 1) In-Reply-To: <4966F9A6.4030508@mail.msu.edu> References: <4965AC53.7040506@mail.msu.edu> <4966F9A6.4030508@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <49678B76.5010108@flippers.com> Josh Dersch wrote: > Steven Hirsch wrote: >> On Wed, 7 Jan 2009, Josh Dersch wrote: >> >>> Yet another small repair question -- >>> >>> Picked up an Osborne 1 with a non-functional keyboard. Upon opening >>> it, I found that one of the plastic/membrane keyboard ribbon >>> connectors had cracked partially through near where it plugs into >>> the PCB. >>> >>> Since these ribbons are actually part of the membrane of the >>> keyboard I can't just replace the cracked ribbon -- so the only >>> option appears to be to re-cut the end of the ribbon cable and >>> expose a bit of the conductive material. What's the recommended >>> means to expose the conductive stripes at the end? I've tried gently >>> scraping with the tip of an x-acto knife but it either does nothing >>> or takes everything off the end :). >> >> Are you sure the ribbon is actually a "sandwich"? My Tandy CoCos and >> Atari 800XL units have a similar flex ribbon where the conductors are >> on the top surface. I've been able to simply cut them back and >> reinsert the remainder. (I initially went down the same path and >> tried scraping them - with similar results ). >> >> Steve >> > It's not a sandwich, but there's definitely some sort of coating over > the conductive stripes -- I get nothing out of my continuity tester by > touching the probes on opposite ends of a given stripe. Hmm. > > Josh > > I have used car rear window defroster repair conductive liquid to fix these in the past - assuming you can get down to the conductive layer. Try punching a number of holes through the insulation with a sharp pin, then squeezing the conductive liquid into the holes in an effort to make a few paths of connection. Possibly sewing fine wire through the holes... There are also PCB repair pens that contain silver that you can draw in thin lines. CircuitWorks is one maker and a quick search turned up http://www.electroniccity.com/brands/32.asp as one supplier. You can now take a similar width (or wider and cut to size) scrap conductive strip and join it to your defective one to gain length... John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From philip at axeside.co.uk Fri Jan 9 14:32:52 2009 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Fri, 09 Jan 2009 20:32:52 +0000 Subject: uIEC/SD == AWESOME! In-Reply-To: <49665BB7.8090105@axeside.co.uk> References: <495D3668.8010202@jbrain.com> <495D3AAA.1000509@jbrain.com> <49665BB7.8090105@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: <4967B474.4060604@axeside.co.uk> Apologies for replying to my own post, but... > Commodore drives do some strange things with GPIB addressing. Bit 7 > isn't supposed to be used, but I think Commodore use it to add a flag to > the primary address when opening files. ISTR they may even use bit 6 > this way, thus preventing you from having a device at (disk drive)+16. If I had engaged brain before opening text editor, I would have realised that this is bit 4 that is being misused. Bits 5 and 6 are correctly used to say what sort of address it is - talk, listen, secondary. Philip. From ragooman at comcast.net Sat Jan 10 08:45:57 2009 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 09:45:57 -0500 Subject: Arcades becoming extinct.. In-Reply-To: <49683AAA.8040809@comcast.net> References: <49683AAA.8040809@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4968B4A5.6050102@comcast.net> Bryan Pope wrote: > .. if they haven't already! :-( > > I used to always go to this arcade when I was in Toronto (Funland > Arcade on Younge Street)... > > http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_19730.aspx > > Now its gone.. :-( > > http://arcadeheroes.com/2008/07/10/funland-arcade-in-toronto-canada-closing-in-a-few-days-hurry-if-you-want-to-play-a-game-there/ > > http://www.thestar.com/comment/columnists/article/453843 > > Syd Bolton of the Personal Computer Museum ( http://www.pcmuseum.ca/ ) > of Brantford, Ontario on the last day: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxA2WRqtUkk > The arcades of today may be disappearing, but the arcades of yesterday are actually on the rise. We have 3 here already in Pittsburgh with a lot of the original arcades, digital _and_mechanical, including pinballs, bowlers, baseball and shooting arcades. There's a few cities with some more, I haven't cataloged them all yet. =Dan [ = http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] From shoppa at trailing-edge.com Sat Jan 10 09:01:30 2009 From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 10:01:30 -0500 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? Message-ID: <20090110150130.C5A5FBA4DA5@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Dr. Dobbs was pretty cool... up until the IBM PC came out and dominated everything. By the mid 80's all the Dr. Dobbs articles were the-latest-TSR-to-do-something-in-MSDOS and it wasn't really worth the effort for me to even look for something interesting in it. That may have marked my turning point towards classic computing, in fact :-). Tim. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Jan 10 10:03:47 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 08:03:47 -0800 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: <20090110150130.C5A5FBA4DA5@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20090110150130.C5A5FBA4DA5@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 10:01:30 -0500 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com > Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? > > Dr. Dobbs was pretty cool... up until the IBM PC came out and > dominated everything. By the mid 80's all the Dr. Dobbs articles > were the-latest-TSR-to-do-something-in-MSDOS and it wasn't really > worth the effort for me to even look for something interesting > in it. That may have marked my turning point towards classic > computing, in fact :-). > > Tim. Hi I had similar feelings. When I wrote them and said that their articles were becoming less and less interesting, they told me that they felt that their readers were becoming more interested in such. They lost what it was that made the magazine unique from the others. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live? Hotmail?: Chat. Store. Share. Do more with mail. http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_hm_justgotbetter_howitworks_012009 From quapla at xs4all.nl Sat Jan 10 10:35:35 2009 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 17:35:35 +0100 (CET) Subject: NCCC - Sunfire V100 / Solaris Message-ID: <17554.62.140.137.30.1231605335.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Hello Tom, If I'm not mistaken, the serial B can also be used. Regards, Ed > Hi Ed, > > How do I access the Solaris console without going through LOM? > > Best, > > --tom > > Ed Groenenberg wrote: >> Hello Tom, >> >> you do not really need the lom, just use the button on the back >> to power it on. >> You could also go to 'docs.sun.com' there's a ton of documentation. >> Take a look at book '816-2756' this should bring you up to speed. >> >> I use a V120, but it's been a while since I had to fiddle around >> with the lom >> >> Regards, >> >> Ed >> >>> Ed, >>> >>> Thanks, I new somebody on this list would have something useful >>> to say about this problem. I ordered a copy of Solaris 10 with >>> this in mind and so my last questions (at this time) are will I be >>> able to use the installation CD without knowing the LOMlite login >>> and password? Will it boot the CD by default when I manually power >>> on the machine? Will I be able see and control the console? >>> >>> --tnx >>> --tom >>> >>> Ed Groenenberg wrote: >>>> Tom, >>>> >>>> Best way is to install Solrais 8, 9 or 10. >>>> Then install the SUNWlomu, SUNWlomr & SUNWlomm packages >>>> followed by patch 110208-22. Then use the lom tool to >>>> manipulate the lom config to your likings. >>>> BTW, the patch has the latest firmware for the lom, so you >>>> can also upgrade it if wanted. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Ed >>>> >>>>> Sorry about the lack of true classic computing content to this >>>>> question, but it does relate to a little bit older machine, a >>>>> Sunfire V100... >>>>> >>>>> I purchased one of these from eBay in hopes of possibly upgrading >>>>> my home firewall and discovered that the machine has a Lights-Out- >>>>> Management (LOM) CPU controlling the main UltraSPARC IIi processor. >>>>> The LOM runs a monitor program (LOMlite) which on this particular >>>>> machine is currently configured to require a login/password when >>>>> communicating with the machine over the console serial port. >>>>> >>>>> >From seemingly endless google searching, it sounds like I should be >>>>> able to break out of the LOMlite login/password cycle by resetting >>>>> the machine with the JP13 jumper. When I do this, LOM is reset, a >>>>> few seemingly ok diagnostic messages are emitted, and then the login >>>>> password are again requested. >>>>> >>>>> I was unable to determine if there is some sort of default login >>>>> password. >>>>> >>>>> The only path seems to be to possibly load the PATA IDE hard drive >>>>> with Solaris, and then use the Solaris tools to reset the LOM setup. >>>>> >>>>> Does anyone on this list have any experience with this machine? >>>>> >>>>> --tnx >>>>> --tom >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> >> >> > > From feedle at feedle.net Sat Jan 10 10:53:56 2009 From: feedle at feedle.net (C. Sullivan) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 08:53:56 -0800 Subject: Arcades becoming extinct.. In-Reply-To: <4968B4A5.6050102@comcast.net> References: <49683AAA.8040809@comcast.net> <4968B4A5.6050102@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Jan 10, 2009, at 6:45 AM, Dan Roganti wrote: > The arcades of today may be disappearing, but the arcades of > yesterday are actually on the rise. We have 3 here already in > Pittsburgh with a lot of the original arcades, digital > _and_mechanical, including pinballs, bowlers, baseball and shooting > arcades. There's a few cities with some more, I haven't cataloged > them all yet. Portland (OR) has Ground Kontrol. Not only a great classic arcade, but they sell 8-bit era consoles and cartridges as well. http://www.groundkontrol.com/ From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Jan 10 10:57:51 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 16:57:51 +0000 Subject: KD-11F (11/03) in a BA11-N?? In-Reply-To: <020a01c97248$3ffd81c0$bff88540$@com> References: <00df01c971a5$5fcbe3f0$1f63abd0$@com> <4966652D.7090603@dunnington.plus.com> <020a01c97248$3ffd81c0$bff88540$@com> Message-ID: <4968D38F.9010509@dunnington.plus.com> On 09/01/2009 10:51, Bob Armstrong wrote: >> Peter Turnbull wrote: >> If you jumper the CPU to enter ODT instead of executing the bootstrap, >> what happens? > > You never get the ODT prompt (the "@"). Never get anything on the > console, FWIW. Hmm... could mean the console isn't accessible to the CPU (perhaps due to a memory conflict) but unlikely. Could mean the CPU is stuck in a "sunset" loop (an endless microcode loop that can't be broken out of, it continues "until the sun sets", ie until the power is cycled, or at least until BPOK is cycled). >> Or if you power things up with with the front panel set to HALT? > > Ditto. > >> If you attempt to execute the BDV11 bootstrap, what happens >> when it halts? Does the RUN light ever light, even briefly? What do >> the lights on the BDV11 show? > > The BDV11 shows all four LEDs on, and the RUN LED does blink momentarily > but then goes off. Then it's not executing the bootstrap; either it's HALTed or stuck in a microcode loop. The latter might happen if it can't access memory between 000000 and 000377, I think. What happens if you move everything down one slot, with the CPU in slot 2, and everything else below that? The RUN light won't work, but everything else should work just as if it were configured normally. At least, that would be true with any QBus processor except possibly yours. You might need to bridge CL1 to CK1 and DK1 to DL1 on slot 2 (or on the card), to make it work. I'm not sure if your M7264 actually needs those, I think they're something to do with RAM bias voltage, which shouldn't matter on a RAMless card. > So it's trapping immediately on startup. Either the CPU card is bad > (which I know isn't true) or it can't find any addressable RAM, or it can't > access the console SLU registers, or something is inhibiting the LSI11 from > running at all. I agree. I think you'll have to look at some of the backplane signals with a scope or logic probe to see what might be wrong. I'd check BREF and BDAL16,17 first, because these behave very differently between 11/03 and 11/23. They should all be high (inactive, logic 0) in this system. If BREF is low, this won't affect an 11/23 or LSI-11/2 but it might affect a quad LSI-11. Check BEVENT as well; while you're troubleshooting it wants to be off. Note that if you disable it by using the switch on the BDV11, that forces it on, which means the only interrupt line the KD11-F has is also always active. I know it's edge-triggered, but still... >> Do these same boards, in exactly this combination, work properly in the > BA11-M? > > Yep. And the same boards except the CPU, work in the same combination in > the BA11-N with a 11/23 CPU card. [It's one of the half sized 11/23 cards - > KDF11-A - without the onboard SLU and ROMs] > >> Exactly which version of the M7264 do you have? > > If you mean the rev level, that I don't know off hand. It's one of the > ones with no actual onboard RAM, though (it has the space for it; the RAM > chips just aren't populated). I believe that makes it a KD11-H, M7264-YA. However, I've seen very few M7264 LSI-11s, most of the 11/03s I've seen and all the ones I have had here, have had the later dual-height M7270 KD11-HA LSI-11/2. Although they share exactly the same microcode, I know the backplane connections aren't identical, but I don't know exactly what the differences are or how that might affect things. I'm afraid I'm at a bit of a loss to explain what's going on here. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Jan 10 11:02:40 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 09:02:40 -0800 Subject: Arcades becoming extinct.. In-Reply-To: <2b1f1f550901100118t4a4a41f3x10eb315976a7417e@mail.gmail.com> References: <2039849250-1231573022-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1564703413 -@bxe146.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <2b1f1f550901100118t4a4a41f3x10eb315976a7417e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: At 4:18 AM -0500 1/10/09, Joe Giliberti wrote: >That would be awesome (if MARCH ever got enough money) >There really aren't any well known arcade machines that are in any way >affordable. A complete, non working Ms. PacMan, for example, still goes for >between $400-$500. One option is a "Supergun" so you can just plug your JAMMA board into a TV. Another good option is something like a Neo Geo arcade machine. The advantage of Neo Geo systems and a couple others is that you have the basic cabinet and then swap out the games. Our Neo Geo is a 4-slot, and we have about 20 different games. Of course the best solution for at home is likely a MAME arcade machine. I know Fry's was selling one for a while. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From keithvz at verizon.net Sat Jan 10 11:28:34 2009 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 12:28:34 -0500 Subject: Arcades becoming extinct.. In-Reply-To: <4968B4A5.6050102@comcast.net> References: <49683AAA.8040809@comcast.net> <4968B4A5.6050102@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4968DAC2.1070606@verizon.net> Dan Roganti wrote: > > The arcades of today may be disappearing, but the arcades of yesterday > are actually on the rise. We have 3 here already in Pittsburgh with a > lot of the original arcades, digital _and_mechanical, including > pinballs, bowlers, baseball and shooting arcades. There's a few cities > with some more, I haven't cataloged them all yet. Did you have a list of those arcades in Pittsburgh on your website? I couldn't find them. I grew up in Pittsburgh with my parents taking us kids to the arcades, hanging out in arcades at night as a teenager, and so on. Maybe Dave and Busters qualifies as an arcade --- but I like the the old school retro games myself. (of which they have a few) > =Dan > > [ = http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] Hey, btw, I'm glad to see some of the various initiatives that you run/are involved with in Pittsburgh. Like the robotics club, vintage computer stuff, etc etc. Good job. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jan 10 11:36:19 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 12:36:19 -0500 Subject: Memory/cache on the 11/70 In-Reply-To: References: <495A0906.6050206@softjar.se> <495BB942.9030409@jetnet.ab.ca> <03bb01c96b82$6f22ec50$46fea8c0@DeskJara> <200901090347.12788.rtellason@verizon.net> <7B616B69-5B4B-468E-BB04-A68EA50D3D70@neurotica.com> <0E94B9EF-6A41-476A-8944-50B90E4B7AE7@neurotica.com> <08724E72-38B8-4CAE-B8D3-543762C5007C@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <967064C1-DD29-44CE-87E3-260F457A91BD@neurotica.com> On Jan 10, 2009, at 2:57 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> I also have some HP intelligent hex displays, along the lines of the >> TIL-311, I'm sure you've seen them. > > Oh, yeah... I got my start back in the COSMAC Elf days. I have many > TIL311s and a few of the HP varieties, too. Ahh yes, that's right. I really like those displays. >> Most of them are encapsulated in red >> injection-molded plastic, but I have a handful of fairly rare >> 5082-7359s, >> which are hermetically-sealed purple ceramic with a glass cover. >> They are >> absolutely gorgeous. > > Sounds like. I don't know that I've ever seen that package. Here's a pic: http://www.neurotica.com/misc/HP5082-7359.jpg -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From evan at snarc.net Sat Jan 10 12:04:42 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 18:04:42 +0000 Subject: Arcades becoming extinct.. Message-ID: <253021398-1231610681-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1222541691-@bxe146.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> >>> Mark my words ... if MARCH ever gets massive H-building space and a steady stream of visitors, then there shall be a legit arcade room!!! Oops. Thought the original message was on our local mailing list, not cctalk. Sorry for the insider chat. From evan at snarc.net Sat Jan 10 12:13:22 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 18:13:22 +0000 Subject: Arcades becoming extinct.. Message-ID: <1444421077-1231611201-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1752057319-@bxe146.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> >>> The arcades of today may be disappearing, but the arcades of yesterday are actually on the rise. There is an excellent "new school" store / arcade called Digital Press, located in Clifton, N.J. ... It's about a 45-minute drive from Newark Airport if anyone has a long layover and rental car. From scheefj at netscape.net Sat Jan 10 12:16:04 2009 From: scheefj at netscape.net (Jim Scheef) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 13:16:04 -0500 Subject: Arcades becoming extinct.. In-Reply-To: <4968B4A5.6050102@comcast.net> References: <49683AAA.8040809@comcast.net> <4968B4A5.6050102@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4968E5E4.1000202@netscape.net> Funny this should come up. I made one of my few trips to the Danbury Fair Mall during Chanakwanazmus shopping season and noticed that the arcade was gone - replaced by an equally useless gift shop that will fail in a few months. Personally I found it nice to be able to sit in that area (part of the food court near the antique merry-go-round) and not be bothered by the noise and running mall rats, but that's just me. :-) I do enjoy watching parents take their little kids on the merry-go-round. Jim Dan Roganti wrote: > > Bryan Pope wrote: >> .. if they haven't already! :-( >> >> I used to always go to this arcade when I was in Toronto (Funland >> Arcade on Younge Street)... >> >> http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_19730.aspx >> >> Now its gone.. :-( >> >> http://arcadeheroes.com/2008/07/10/funland-arcade-in-toronto-canada-closing-in-a-few-days-hurry-if-you-want-to-play-a-game-there/ >> >> http://www.thestar.com/comment/columnists/article/453843 >> >> Syd Bolton of the Personal Computer Museum ( http://www.pcmuseum.ca/ ) >> of Brantford, Ontario on the last day: >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxA2WRqtUkk >> > > The arcades of today may be disappearing, but the arcades of yesterday > are actually on the rise. We have 3 here already in Pittsburgh with a > lot of the original arcades, digital _and_mechanical, including > pinballs, bowlers, baseball and shooting arcades. There's a few cities > with some more, I haven't cataloged them all yet. > > =Dan > > [ = http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] > From scheefj at netscape.net Sat Jan 10 13:54:00 2009 From: scheefj at netscape.net (Jim Scheef) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 14:54:00 -0500 Subject: DEC Direct Sales Catalog In-Reply-To: <51ea77730901091321t57df77a8see9e6f080d6c24d1@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730901072054o4cc5c74fi5143905821fc145@mail.gmail.com> <49661E85.7030108@pacbell.net> <49662EF8.7080109@pacbell.net> <51ea77730901091321t57df77a8see9e6f080d6c24d1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4968FCD8.3000001@netscape.net> Jason, The DEC catalog is fairly common on eBay, coming up every month or so with later years more common than ones from the 70's. Mine is from January 1992 but my interests are VAXen and networking rather than PDPs. These books are invaluable for converting a DEC model number like DEMPR-AA into something helpful like "ThinWire Ethernet Multiport Repeater". Having this scanned will be helpful as a computer can search a PDF without wearing out the book. If "debinding" will facilitate the scanning then I would go for it. A list of archive sites would be helpful as the search engines don't seem to find them all (at least not when I'm searching). If people will send me lists of such sites, I'll put up a page on the MARCH site. Also, I've been planning a list of member's sites. Jim Jason T wrote: > Sooo......no one has this book out there, then? If not, I will > consider it at least "rare" and do what I can to preserve it as intact > as possible. We have a print shop at work that could probably rebind > it for me, although I'd still consider that sub-optimal, as I would > lose the spine printing, but it may be the best I can do. I think the > info contained in this catalog is valuable enough to the DEC collector > community that it warrants it. > > As for automated book scanning, that is not in my budget, nor do I > have the lego skills required ;) > > Is there a master list of documentation archive sites out there > somewhere? There is bitsavers, vt100.net, 1000bit, and at least a > couple others I've seen mentioned on this list. Perhaps someone > should start a Wikipedia article or something similarly centralized so > such a list could be collected. It would be handy not only for the > obvious, but also for folks like me to make sure that they are not > re-scanning something that's already out there. From scheefj at netscape.net Sat Jan 10 14:07:38 2009 From: scheefj at netscape.net (Jim Scheef) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 15:07:38 -0500 Subject: archive sites (was DEC Direct Sales Catalog) In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730901072054o4cc5c74fi5143905821fc145@mail.gmail.com> <49661E85.7030108@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <4969000A.8070503@netscape.net> Dave, You site is nice and will be very helpful as your content grows. Having those search terms on your search page, would be helpful, as would a hint that you support the Dewey Decimal System. Can someone search by ISBN as well? And let me echo the plea for some capitalization and punctuation in your posts. I don't think you are in any danger, but this list has banned people for less! Jim Dave Caroline wrote: > oops forgot the url > > http://www.archivist.info/collection/ > some search terms > im gets all instruction manuals > is gets all instruction and service > bk books > 005 is dewey for computing > my main collection is electronics and test equipment so computing is > buried a bit > > Dave Caroline From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sat Jan 10 15:51:30 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 19:51:30 -0200 Subject: Arcades becoming extinct.. References: <2039849250-1231573022-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1564703413-@bxe146.bisx.prod.on.blackberry><2b1f1f550901100118t4a4a41f3x10eb315976a7417e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <073a01c9736d$bb273c30$46fea8c0@DeskJara> > One option is a "Supergun" so you can just plug your JAMMA board into > a TV. Another good option is something like a Neo Geo arcade > machine. The advantage of Neo Geo systems and a couple others is > that you have the basic cabinet and then swap out the games. Our Neo > Geo is a 4-slot, and we have about 20 different games. > Of course the best solution for at home is likely a MAME arcade > machine. I know Fry's was selling one for a while. I did many "superguns" at home for friends. But nothing beats a real machine. I have one running MAME :o) From mardy at voysys.com Sat Jan 10 16:25:49 2009 From: mardy at voysys.com (Marden P. Marshall) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 17:25:49 -0500 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: <20090110150130.C5A5FBA4DA5@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20090110150130.C5A5FBA4DA5@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <2720E6FA-7717-4B7D-9DF1-3D7CB19951E6@voysys.com> On Jan 10, 2009, at 10:01 AM, Tim Shoppa wrote: > Dr. Dobbs was pretty cool... up until the IBM PC came out and > dominated everything. By the mid 80's all the Dr. Dobbs articles > were the-latest-TSR-to-do-something-in-MSDOS and it wasn't really > worth the effort for me to even look for something interesting > in it. That may have marked my turning point towards classic > computing, in fact :-). > > Tim. Just received the Feb. '09 issue of DDJ. A scant 48 pages. On the Editors page, Jonathan Erickson writes: "So effective in January 2009, Dr. Dobb's Journal is changing to Dr. Dobb's Report and will be delivered as a new monthly section in Information Week magazine." The end of a era. -Mardy From legalize at xmission.com Sat Jan 10 16:46:40 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 15:46:40 -0700 Subject: SGI Visualisation Systems... Good for Maya and what else? In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 08 Jan 2009 13:10:09 -0600. Message-ID: In article , "joe lobocki" writes: > abandoned the visualization market? http://www.sgi.com/vue/ it looks like > they are back in, and according to the top corner, using the full old logo, > which says "silicon graphics" again Well, I have no idea what's on that page because it tries loading some sort of "experience" and sits there at 1%. The market they abandoned was custom graphics architecture based hardware for visualization. Whatever they do now, I'm sure its a POPC machine with an NVidia card in it. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ragooman at comcast.net Sat Jan 10 17:36:05 2009 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 18:36:05 -0500 Subject: Arcades becoming extinct.. In-Reply-To: <4968DAC2.1070606@verizon.net> References: <49683AAA.8040809@comcast.net> <4968B4A5.6050102@comcast.net> <4968DAC2.1070606@verizon.net> Message-ID: <496930E5.5070409@comcast.net> Keith wrote: > Did you have a list of those arcades in Pittsburgh on your website? I > couldn't find them. > I grew up in Pittsburgh with my parents taking us kids to the arcades, > hanging out in arcades at night as a teenager, and so on. > Maybe Dave and Busters qualifies as an arcade --- but I like the the > old school retro games myself. (of which they have a few) > Hey, btw, I'm glad to see some of the various initiatives that you > run/are involved with in Pittsburgh. Like the robotics club, vintage > computer stuff, etc etc. Good job. I need to update the Pittsburgh list on my webpage still Dave n Busters wouldn't be a considered a classic arcade place here, they only have new stuff there. But here's the links. Pittsburgh Players Club Museum - from the very old (ie mechanical) to the new; 170+ games http://www.angelfire.com/pa2/pindan/museum.htm Games 'n at -- half old stuff and new stuff, plus home video games http://sites.google.com/site/gamesnatsite/ Professional Amateur Pinball Association(PAPA) -- international tournaments and a colossal collection of pinball machines; 300+ games http://www.papa.org/index.php =Dan [ = http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Jan 10 17:38:42 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 18:38:42 -0500 Subject: How to tell differential scsi drives and cards apart Message-ID: <2877B33C3A8B42B2917A94952AAA92F3@game> Is there an easy way to tell if a SCSI controller or HD is LVD or HVD? My understanding is that HVD was the first type used and was just called differential F/W and then LVD came out so the old standard was then called HVD. I have some SUN Symbios 22802 cards coming in I wanted to use in a SUN Ultra Sparc 5 and I think those are HVD (advertised as just differential and I didn't think to cross check). Everything I have is SE/LVD. From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Jan 10 17:40:27 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 18:40:27 -0500 Subject: Arcades becoming extinct.. References: <49683AAA.8040809@comcast.net> <4968B4A5.6050102@comcast.net><4968DAC2.1070606@verizon.net> <496930E5.5070409@comcast.net> Message-ID: <61AECBB5BB874924B2F8DC39541C00EC@game> If all the old arcades are extinct where did all the cabinets end up? Do they get crunched or do they get a face transplant and new games installed? From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 10 17:54:32 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 15:54:32 -0800 Subject: Arcades becoming extinct.. In-Reply-To: <4968B4A5.6050102@comcast.net> References: <49683AAA.8040809@comcast.net>, <4968B4A5.6050102@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4968C4B8.6014.615C926@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Jan 2009 at 9:45, Dan Roganti wrote: > The arcades of today may be disappearing, but the arcades of yesterday > are actually on the rise. We have 3 here already in Pittsburgh with a > lot of the original arcades, digital _and_mechanical, including > pinballs, bowlers, baseball and shooting arcades. There's a few cities > with some more, I haven't cataloged them all yet. It's not a "classic" arcade unless it's got some Mutoscopes, fortunetelling machines, and Nickelodeon or two... Cheers, Chuck From keithvz at verizon.net Sat Jan 10 18:33:00 2009 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 19:33:00 -0500 Subject: Arcades becoming extinct.. In-Reply-To: <496930E5.5070409@comcast.net> References: <49683AAA.8040809@comcast.net> <4968B4A5.6050102@comcast.net> <4968DAC2.1070606@verizon.net> <496930E5.5070409@comcast.net> Message-ID: <49693E3C.8050303@verizon.net> Dan Roganti wrote: > Dave n Busters wouldn't be a considered a classic arcade place here, > they only have new stuff there. That's not entirely true. When walking into the main entrance, go straight past the cashier's desk to the right, and back in the section to the right, I found a few older games. I think ms. pacman and space invaders, at least. I didn't spend much time looking, but there are a few classics there. They were there at least a month or so ago, anyways. Keith From hachti at hachti.de Sat Jan 10 19:23:29 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 02:23:29 +0100 Subject: New Honeywell H316 video on youtube Message-ID: <49694A11.3070709@hachti.de> Hi folks, last night I took some 2006 dv footage and prepared it for youtube. Perhaps some people here like to watch that blinkenlights stuff. I show compiling and running a program on the machine. Not too detailed, but very nice moving images. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxVbRz6udmI Comments strongly appreciated! :-) Planning to do a more technical video another time. Best wishes, Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Jan 10 21:29:50 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 21:29:50 -0600 Subject: Arcades becoming extinct.. In-Reply-To: <4968C4B8.6014.615C926@cclist.sydex.com> References: <49683AAA.8040809@comcast.net>, <4968B4A5.6050102@comcast.net> <4968C4B8.6014.615C926@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <496967AE.9050200@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10 Jan 2009 at 9:45, Dan Roganti wrote: > >> The arcades of today may be disappearing, but the arcades of yesterday >> are actually on the rise. We have 3 here already in Pittsburgh with a >> lot of the original arcades, digital _and_mechanical, including >> pinballs, bowlers, baseball and shooting arcades. There's a few cities >> with some more, I haven't cataloged them all yet. > > It's not a "classic" arcade unless it's got some Mutoscopes, > fortunetelling machines, and Nickelodeon or two... Yeah, I recall at some of the bigger steam festivals in the UK they often have arcades with Victorian-era systems* in - it's a good way of wasting a few hours :-) * 90% mechanical of course, with a smattering of simple electrics... cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Jan 10 21:40:16 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 21:40:16 -0600 Subject: How to tell differential scsi drives and cards apart In-Reply-To: <2877B33C3A8B42B2917A94952AAA92F3@game> References: <2877B33C3A8B42B2917A94952AAA92F3@game> Message-ID: <49696A20.9050001@gmail.com> Teo Zenios wrote: > Is there an easy way to tell if a SCSI controller or HD is LVD or HVD? Has it got an external connector? If so it should have the appropriate symbol next to it for the bus type - if you scroll to the bottom of the following page then there's a quick overview of the symbols: http://scsifaq.paralan.com/scsifaqanswers4.html > I have some SUN Symbios 22802 cards coming in I wanted to use in a SUN > Ultra Sparc 5 and I think those are HVD (advertised as just differential > and I didn't think to cross check). Everything I have is SE/LVD. I think there are converters to be purchased, but of course it's a convenience/money equation... (if none of that makes sense, blame the red wine) cheers Jules From michaelgreen42 at comcast.net Sun Jan 11 00:00:57 2009 From: michaelgreen42 at comcast.net (Michael) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 22:00:57 -0800 Subject: Mac SE FS in Seattle Area In-Reply-To: <200901101800.n0AI0gcU001923@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901101800.n0AI0gcU001923@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <03f201c973b1$f8f792f0$eae6b8d0$@net> I've got a number of working Mac SE's (not 30's) I'd like to sell. I've got both HD and dual floppy models. Some of them need an OS reload and some work fine. Make me an offer, I'd like to move these soon due to a pending relocation. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Jan 11 00:02:51 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 01:02:51 -0500 Subject: Interesting Folder In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> XD-1 as in AN/FSQ-7(XD-1)? > > Sounds like it. XD-1 would have been at MIT's Lincoln Labs facility. > Frame 41 is the Long-range Radar Inputs (LRI) unit. Interesting find. Your the SAGE dude around these parts, so send me your mailing address off list. -- Will From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Jan 11 01:24:59 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 23:24:59 -0800 Subject: "Tyrotek" analog computer Message-ID: <49699ECB.E8A9D0D2@cs.ubc.ca> I'm currently working on refurbishing a small analog computer from the mid-60's. It has the name "Tyrotek" on the front panel, in the middle of a sine wave curve. (My) web searches turn up zippo about this name (other than some guy using the word as a moniker). The only other clue to a manufacturer is "Non Linear Mfg." in the foil of the printed circuit boards. No model number, no identification plate. While it is smaller for an analog computer and appears to be intended as an educational or training unit, it is built to industrial standards, with a nice sizeable plugboard using standard IBM plugboard wires, fiberglass PCBs, discrete FET-input op-amps, etc., so it's not just some gimmicky thing. Eventually I'll have a web page for it, but right now I'm curious as to it's manufacturer origins. Just a guess, but one line of speculation I'm making is that "Non Linear Mfg." may have been the manufacturing arm of Non-Linear Systems of digital voltmeter fame, and Tyrotek was a subsidiary of, or otherwise associated, with NLS. Comments / clues / recollections? From michaelgreen42 at comcast.net Sun Jan 11 02:43:32 2009 From: michaelgreen42 at comcast.net (Michael) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 00:43:32 -0800 Subject: FS: NeXT Turbo in Seattle WA area In-Reply-To: <200901101800.n0AI0gcU001923@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901101800.n0AI0gcU001923@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <041f01c973c8$af6a1bf0$0e3e53d0$@net> I am getting ready to move and trying to lighten my load a bit. I have a working NeXT Turbo, 17 b/w monitor, keyboard, and mouse. It works great with a few minor issues. It boots but gets stuck on detecting network. Since I can't find my NeXTStep install CD's I can't log into it anyway since I don't know the password. Also the port where the mouse plugs into the keyboard has separated from the keyboard portion. It can be fixed since it's not actually broken but it will take more patience/time than I have or just a new keyboard. Looking for best offer. If you don't want the monitor due to shipping reasons I can take that off. From erikb at digischool.nl Sat Jan 10 12:32:54 2009 From: erikb at digischool.nl (erikb at digischool.nl) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 19:32:54 +0100 Subject: PDP-8/e, DECtape TU56 and other stuff available Message-ID: <20090110183254.GA29727@x1.electrologica.nl> Hi folks, Available in the Netherlands for a reasonable offer: PDP-8/e computer PDP-11/40 computer and spare PDP-11/40 processor board set TU56 DECtape unit TC11 UNIBUS DECtape controller PC05 paper tape unit with PC11 UNIBUS controller PDP-9 and PDP-12 consoles Circa 500 M/G/W series single height flip-chips HP 9100 programmable calculator Tektronix 4051 graphics computer Everything looks pretty good, but except for the HP 9100 nothing has been switched on. Please contact me directly if interested. Sincerely, Erik. From jws at jwsss.com Sat Jan 10 22:54:27 2009 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sat, 10 Jan 2009 20:54:27 -0800 Subject: How to tell differential scsi drives and cards apart In-Reply-To: <49696A20.9050001@gmail.com> References: <2877B33C3A8B42B2917A94952AAA92F3@game> <49696A20.9050001@gmail.com> Message-ID: <49697B83.9060007@jwsss.com> The HVD bus is designed such that if you plug it into a SE bus it will go into reset and go passive. There is a signal DIFFSNS on the HVD that will disable the bus. Not good, but better than nothing if you mess up and plug them together. The link below points to a company who makes the converters. Sometimes they are available on Ebay, and there are some repackaged by Compaq and HP that show up. They make both the 50 an 68 pin versions. I doubt they will work over 5m/sec with HVD involved, however. Will Adaptec controllers work in the Ultra5? I have many 2944's and 3944's available to play with but have not tried them. Jim > > http://scsifaq.paralan.com/scsifaqanswers4.html > > From locutus at puscii.nl Sun Jan 11 06:02:36 2009 From: locutus at puscii.nl (locutus at puscii.nl) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 13:02:36 +0100 Subject: PDP-8/e, DECtape TU56 and other stuff available In-Reply-To: <20090110183254.GA29727@x1.electrologica.nl> References: <20090110183254.GA29727@x1.electrologica.nl> Message-ID: <87vdsmqcdf.wl%locutus@puscii.nl> Where about in .nl would this be located? From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Sun Jan 11 07:37:12 2009 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 05:37:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: Barcade Re: Arcades becoming extinct.. In-Reply-To: <4968DAC2.1070606@verizon.net> Message-ID: <207314.7200.qm@web112201.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Well if any of you ever find yourself in NYC, you can check out Barcade http://www.barcadebrooklyn.com/ It's a Bar with older video games The last time I was there they had (this is from mem, so I'm sorry if I am not 100% correct) Pengo Ms Pack Man Tapper Zaxxon Rolling Thunder Punch Out Crystal Castles QBert Dig Dug Donkey Kong and DK Jr Gauntlet Berzerk Out Run Tetris Moon Patrol I know they have a few more, check out their flickr page to see. From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Jan 11 08:56:12 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 09:56:12 -0500 Subject: Memory/cache on the 11/70 In-Reply-To: <967064C1-DD29-44CE-87E3-260F457A91BD@neurotica.com> References: <495A0906.6050206@softjar.se> <967064C1-DD29-44CE-87E3-260F457A91BD@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200901110956.12829.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 10 January 2009 12:36:19 pm Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jan 10, 2009, at 2:57 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> I also have some HP intelligent hex displays, along the lines of the > >> TIL-311, I'm sure you've seen them. > > > > Oh, yeah... I got my start back in the COSMAC Elf days. I have many > > TIL311s and a few of the HP varieties, too. > > Ahh yes, that's right. I really like those displays. > > >> Most of them are encapsulated in red > >> injection-molded plastic, but I have a handful of fairly rare > >> 5082-7359s, > >> which are hermetically-sealed purple ceramic with a glass cover. > >> They are > >> absolutely gorgeous. > > > > Sounds like. I don't know that I've ever seen that package. > > Here's a pic: > > http://www.neurotica.com/misc/HP5082-7359.jpg > > -Dave Oh man... I need to get me some of those. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Jan 11 08:54:29 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 09:54:29 -0500 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: <20090110150130.C5A5FBA4DA5@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <20090110150130.C5A5FBA4DA5@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <200901110954.29968.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 10 January 2009 10:01:30 am Tim Shoppa wrote: > Dr. Dobbs was pretty cool... up until the IBM PC came out and > dominated everything. By the mid 80's all the Dr. Dobbs articles > were the-latest-TSR-to-do-something-in-MSDOS and it wasn't really > worth the effort for me to even look for something interesting > in it. That may have marked my turning point towards classic > computing, in fact :-). > > Tim. I too lost interest in it somewhere in there... Fortunately, thanks to a listmember, I have some of the earliest issues on hand here to browse. Unfortunately I need reading glasses to be able to get much out of them. Oh well. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sun Jan 11 10:50:37 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 14:50:37 -0200 Subject: New Honeywell H316 video on youtube References: <49694A11.3070709@hachti.de> Message-ID: <0d3f01c9740c$c9609770$46fea8c0@DeskJara> A-Mazing! :oD > Perhaps some people here like to watch that blinkenlights stuff. I show > compiling and running > a program on the machine. Not too detailed, but very nice moving images. > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxVbRz6udmI > Comments strongly appreciated! :-) From pontus at update.uu.se Sun Jan 11 11:32:00 2009 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 18:32:00 +0100 Subject: New Honeywell H316 video on youtube In-Reply-To: <49694A11.3070709@hachti.de> References: <49694A11.3070709@hachti.de> Message-ID: <496A2D10.5050004@update.uu.se> Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > last night I took some 2006 dv footage and prepared it for youtube. Thanks! Your videos are always fun and interesting to watch. > Perhaps some people here like to watch that blinkenlights stuff. I > show compiling and running > a program on the machine. Not too detailed, but very nice moving images. The blinkenlights are of course nice. Fun to see things that are not from DEC. Where do you get the paper tape for your copies? > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxVbRz6udmI > > Comments strongly appreciated! :-) Not much to say :) Good editing and nice quality. > > Planning to do a more technical video another time. Looking forward to it. Regards, Pontus. From emu at e-bbes.com Sun Jan 11 12:01:24 2009 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 11:01:24 -0700 Subject: SCSI <--> IDE adapters Message-ID: <496A33F4.6080608@e-bbes.com> Which ones you guys recommend ? Just to clarify, I need an adapter which connects IDE (PATA) drives to an SCSI equipped VAX ... From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Jan 11 12:05:53 2009 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 10:05:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: New Honeywell H316 video on youtube In-Reply-To: <0d3f01c9740c$c9609770$46fea8c0@DeskJara> References: <49694A11.3070709@hachti.de> <0d3f01c9740c$c9609770$46fea8c0@DeskJara> Message-ID: On Sun, 11 Jan 2009, Alexandre Souza wrote: > > A-Mazing! :oD > >> Perhaps some people here like to watch that blinkenlights stuff. I show >> compiling and running >> a program on the machine. Not too detailed, but very nice moving images. >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxVbRz6udmI >> Comments strongly appreciated! :-) That is the coolest thing I think I've ever seen on YouTube. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From michaelgreen42 at comcast.net Sun Jan 11 12:21:04 2009 From: michaelgreen42 at comcast.net (Michael) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 10:21:04 -0800 Subject: Sun Server Parts (E4000-E5000 series) Seattle WA In-Reply-To: <200901101800.n0AI0gcU001923@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901101800.n0AI0gcU001923@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <044901c97419$5dc05520$1940ff60$@net> Figured I would post here if anyone was interested before I go the eBay route. I've got 2 large boxes filled with node boards (most with procs and filled with ram), clock boards, i/o boards, power supplies, and other misc stuff not even sure about. If interested mail me offlist and let me know. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Jan 11 13:13:15 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 11:13:15 -0800 Subject: SCSI <--> IDE adapters In-Reply-To: <496A33F4.6080608@e-bbes.com> References: <496A33F4.6080608@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: At 11:01 AM -0700 1/11/09, e.stiebler wrote: >Which ones you guys recommend ? >Just to clarify, I need an adapter which connects IDE (PATA) drives >to an SCSI equipped VAX ... I'm told the Acard ones work, but with one caveat, Volume Shadowing will not work. I have a good stash of SCSI drives I picked up at a swap meet years ago, so haven't bothered to get any converters. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From emu at e-bbes.com Sun Jan 11 13:27:14 2009 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 12:27:14 -0700 Subject: SCSI <--> IDE adapters In-Reply-To: References: <496A33F4.6080608@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <496A4812.8040206@e-bbes.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > I'm told the Acard ones work, but with one caveat, Volume Shadowing will > not work. OK, thanks, I will check them out. > I have a good stash of SCSI drives I picked up at a swap meet > years ago, so haven't bothered to get any converters. Yes I know, but in the meantime, I'm having an overflow of 80GByte system disk from various systems. Like to put them to work first, and save the SCSI for bad times ;-) From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Jan 11 14:22:20 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 12:22:20 -0800 Subject: SCSI <--> IDE adapters In-Reply-To: <496A4812.8040206@e-bbes.com> References: <496A33F4.6080608@e-bbes.com> <496A4812.8040206@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: At 12:27 PM -0700 1/11/09, e.stiebler wrote: >Yes I know, but in the meantime, I'm having an overflow of 80GByte >system disk from various systems. Like to put them to work first, >and save the SCSI for bad times ;-) Makes sense, also you can save certain drives for the "finicky" systems that won't take the larger disks. I've been thinking about getting a U2W-SCSI converter and a large Seagate drive as a backup disk for my primary VMS box, it would make automating backups "cheap". Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jan 11 17:45:59 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 15:45:59 -0800 Subject: "Tyrotek" analog computer In-Reply-To: <49699ECB.E8A9D0D2@cs.ubc.ca> References: <49699ECB.E8A9D0D2@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca > > I'm currently working on refurbishing a small analog computer from the > mid-60's. It has the name "Tyrotek" on the front panel, in the middle of a sine > wave curve. (My) web searches turn up zippo about this name (other than some > guy using the word as a moniker). > > The only other clue to a manufacturer is "Non Linear Mfg." in the foil of the > printed circuit boards. No model number, no identification plate. > > While it is smaller for an analog computer and appears to be intended as an > educational or training unit, it is built to industrial standards, with a nice > sizeable plugboard using standard IBM plugboard wires, fiberglass PCBs, > discrete FET-input op-amps, etc., so it's not just some gimmicky thing. > > Eventually I'll have a web page for it, but right now I'm curious as to it's > manufacturer origins. Just a guess, but one line of speculation I'm making is > that "Non Linear Mfg." may have been the manufacturing arm of Non-Linear > Systems of digital voltmeter fame, and Tyrotek was a subsidiary of, or > otherwise associated, with NLS. > Hi Sounds intresting. I do question the date. It is more likely in the 70's. You might look at some of the date codes from the parts. How many amps does it have? Can they all be configured as integrators? Any special operators like multipliers? Does it have a two speed integrator function like the Comdynas? Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_howitworks_012009 From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sun Jan 11 18:20:02 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 22:20:02 -0200 Subject: SCSI <--> IDE adapters References: <496A33F4.6080608@e-bbes.com> <496A4812.8040206@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <127a01c9744b$91ddc810$46fea8c0@DeskJara> > Makes sense, also you can save certain drives for the "finicky" > systems that won't take the larger disks. I've been thinking about > getting a U2W-SCSI converter and a large Seagate drive as a backup > disk for my primary VMS box, it would make automating backups "cheap". The problem in saving drives is that is very common for the head to "glue" on the disk surface. I've seen it here many, many times. That is why I don't store hard disks anymore. Solid State is the way to go. From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sun Jan 11 19:55:59 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 23:55:59 -0200 Subject: New Honeywell H316 video on youtube References: <49694A11.3070709@hachti.de><0d3f01c9740c$c9609770$46fea8c0@DeskJara> Message-ID: <13c501c97459$047d9460$46fea8c0@DeskJara> >>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxVbRz6udmI > That is the coolest thing I think I've ever seen on YouTube. :) I'd not say the coolest, maybe. But one of the most interesting ones :oD I want to make a paper reader/puncher :D I got in love with that toys :D :D :D Where can I buy the "blank" paper roll? From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 11 20:14:28 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 18:14:28 -0800 Subject: New Honeywell H316 video on youtube In-Reply-To: <13c501c97459$047d9460$46fea8c0@DeskJara> References: <49694A11.3070709@hachti.de>, <13c501c97459$047d9460$46fea8c0@DeskJara> Message-ID: <496A3704.13957.BBC6667@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Jan 2009 at 23:55, Alexandre Souza wrote: > Where can I buy the "blank" paper roll? Find a dealer in your area who handles old CNC equipment. A lot of that stuff is still running and needs paper tape. In the US, here's a source: http://www.westnc.com/paper-tape-rolls.html Cheers, Chuck From wmaddox at pacbell.net Sun Jan 11 22:00:20 2009 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 20:00:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Nice core stacks that have not been butchered Message-ID: <148234.136.qm@web82604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> There is a seller on eBay who has multiple units of an 18-plane core stack (Univac military surplus) that have not been chopped up for display. They are sealed in vapor-barrier bags. I bought one, and it appears to be a refurbed unit packaged for spares. Price is $295 "buy it now". Item # 180320226997 This is just one of them. Search for the other listings. --Bill From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Jan 11 22:57:31 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 23:57:31 -0500 Subject: Anyone ever play with an IOtech Serial488/4? Message-ID: Hi, All, I have this IOtech Serial488/4 IEEE-488 quad serial box here, found the manual easily enough, but haven't yet set it up. Does anyone on the list have any experience with one of these? If so, I'd love to hear about any lessons learned or "gotchas". For those that haven't seen one, it's rack-mount box with a 68B09, some ROM and SRAM, a pair of Z8530s, and a TMS9914 GPIB chip. It gives you four buffered serial lines on your IEEE-488 bus. They are still sold new, for new prices, and used for about 10% of that. It looks rather straight-forward to talk to, but I thought I'd ask in case there is some "notorious" feature of them. Given that I'm heavily loaded with PETs and not with HP equipment, I'll probably go that route. Thanks for any tales, -ethan From hachti at hachti.de Mon Jan 12 00:14:35 2009 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 07:14:35 +0100 Subject: New Honeywell H316 video on youtube In-Reply-To: <13c501c97459$047d9460$46fea8c0@DeskJara> References: <49694A11.3070709@hachti.de><0d3f01c9740c$c9609770$46fea8c0@DeskJara> <13c501c97459$047d9460$46fea8c0@DeskJara> Message-ID: <496ADFCB.9030204@hachti.de> > Where can I buy the "blank" paper roll? ...one of the problems *g* From gklinger at gmail.com Mon Jan 12 01:02:31 2009 From: gklinger at gmail.com (Golan Klinger) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 02:02:31 -0500 Subject: VIC-20 Mega-Cart Message-ID: Disclaimer: I'm not sure if posting about this is out of bounds so if it is, please accept my apology and direct your flames to the address in my sig. I'm not involved with the project in any way so the following isn't an advertisement so much as a public service announcement/ravings of a very excited VIC-20 user. There's an exciting new piece of VIC-20 hardware called the Mega-Cart. It includes 179 games that were originally released on cartridge (that's all of the known cartridges BTW) as well as 53 games that were released on tape or disk (some of which were released in the last year). It's not just fun and games though. It also includes 24 utilities/applications (programming languages, monitors, an assembler, text editor, terminal program and more) and if that isn't enough, it's also a flexible RAM expander (3K, 8K, 16K, 32K and 32K + 3K). To make it easy to configure and use, the Mega-Cart comes with a menu system (that includes music no less) and it's able to remember all your configuration settings too. How neat is that? I haven't been this excited since I actually got my VIC-20. :) If you want to know more about or are interested in purchasing the Mega-Cart (the price is $100 USD) then visit the website: -- Golan Klinger Dark is the suede that mows like a harvest. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Jan 12 02:06:26 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 00:06:26 -0800 Subject: "Tyrotek" analog computer References: <49699ECB.E8A9D0D2@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <496AFA01.7F8AA221@cs.ubc.ca> dwight elvey wrote: > > > From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca > > > > I'm currently working on refurbishing a small analog computer from the > > mid-60's. It has the name "Tyrotek" on the front panel, in the middle of a sine > > wave curve. (My) web searches turn up zippo about this name (other than some > > guy using the word as a moniker). > > > > The only other clue to a manufacturer is "Non Linear Mfg." in the foil of the > > printed circuit boards. No model number, no identification plate. > > > > While it is smaller for an analog computer and appears to be intended as an > > educational or training unit, it is built to industrial standards, with a nice > > sizeable plugboard using standard IBM plugboard wires, fiberglass PCBs, > > discrete FET-input op-amps, etc., so it's not just some gimmicky thing. > > > > Eventually I'll have a web page for it, but right now I'm curious as to it's > > manufacturer origins. Just a guess, but one line of speculation I'm making is > > that "Non Linear Mfg." may have been the manufacturing arm of Non-Linear > > Systems of digital voltmeter fame, and Tyrotek was a subsidiary of, or > > otherwise associated, with NLS. > > > > Hi > Sounds intresting. I do question the date. It is more likely in the > 70's. You might look at some of the date codes from the parts. > How many amps does it have? Can they all be configured as integrators? > Any special operators like multipliers? Does it have a two speed > integrator function like the Comdynas? > Dwight Oh, it really is mid-60's, date codes are one of the first things I look for on any piece of quipment. Latest date code is 6734 on a 'lytic cap, 66xx on some other components. If you were questioning the date because of my reference to op-amps, ("discrete FET-input op-amps"), to clarify, I mean the entire op-amp is discrete, not discrete FETs feeding an op-amp IC. There are no ICs in the unit. There are a total of 10 amps. 4 can be configured as integrators or summers, 4 are just summers. 2 have associated circuitry to make them into multipliers or dividers, or can be used as just summers. I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to as the two-speed function, but there was an option (going by the front panel labeling and some wiring) (option not installed) to change the "Time Scale" for the integrators. I believe it changed the integrating caps for all the amps, but it's a 'global' change, not individually selectable per amp. The unit had been languishing in my basement for a few years, on the verge of being thrown out. Now that I've gotten into it, it has been fun figuring out something 'completely different', never having worked on or with one previously. Of course, I don't have the manual for the thing. I've done the schematic, which has made it possible to figure out a lot of it. There's not a lot on the web about analog computers, but there are a couple of scans of manufacturer brochures and an article or two that are cluing me in to the standard practices of the time. It's currently in a million pieces across 3 workbenches, almost ready for reassembly. (Most of the nuts and screws and a few other metal parts had grown that white powder that develops under certain conditions on some metal surfaces. I've seen it on other equipment, I presume it's an oxide of the metal plating, although it also has the appearance of a mildew or fungus. I'm not sure what element the plating is. Fortunately, it's only a 'mechanical' issue, it isn't affecting the circuitry or contacts.) If you have experience with these things I may be back asking some questions in a while, once it's all together and functioning and I can put up some pictures. What can be done with it when it's functioning will be another question. The only built-in 'output' device is a solitary analog meter. I have my eye on an HP analog chart recorder buried at the radio museum, to use as an output recorder, but I expect it has ink issues in the way of getting it going. (At least the plugboard looks cool.) From quapla at xs4all.nl Mon Jan 12 05:15:17 2009 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 12:15:17 +0100 (CET) Subject: New Honeywell H316 video on youtube Message-ID: <16442.62.177.247.249.1231758917.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Try 'Numeric Control Corp', a company in de states who does/(did?) sell papertape. I once bought a case of 48 rolls some time ago for my teletype Ed > >> Where can I buy the "blank" paper roll? > > ...one of the problems *g* > From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Mon Jan 12 07:20:15 2009 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 13:20:15 +0000 Subject: "Tyrotek" analog computer In-Reply-To: <496AFA01.7F8AA221@cs.ubc.ca> References: <49699ECB.E8A9D0D2@cs.ubc.ca> <496AFA01.7F8AA221@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: This is where a deep cataloguing really helps. When in a good mood I catalogue the adverts and new products on books mags etc. No one can find without this legwork, OCR if Google can read will help. Use advert to see a small sample http://www.archivist.info/collection Dave Caroline From wgungfu at uwm.edu Mon Jan 12 08:22:07 2009 From: wgungfu at uwm.edu (Martin Scott Goldberg) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 08:22:07 -0600 (CST) Subject: VIC-20 Mega-Cart In-Reply-To: <941507416.17923131231770010701.JavaMail.root@mail01.pantherlink.uwm.edu> Message-ID: <641490273.17923871231770127148.JavaMail.root@mail01.pantherlink.uwm.edu> Most of those games are still active (as in still used) properties by Midway, Namco, Taito, Konami, and Atari. They're opening themselves up to cease and desists and lawsuits by at least 5 different companies. Marty ----- Original Message ----- From: "Golan Klinger" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 1:02:31 AM GMT -06:00 Central America Subject: VIC-20 Mega-Cart Disclaimer: I'm not sure if posting about this is out of bounds so if it is, please accept my apology and direct your flames to the address in my sig. I'm not involved with the project in any way so the following isn't an advertisement so much as a public service announcement/ravings of a very excited VIC-20 user. There's an exciting new piece of VIC-20 hardware called the Mega-Cart. It includes 179 games that were originally released on cartridge (that's all of the known cartridges BTW) as well as 53 games that were released on tape or disk (some of which were released in the last year). It's not just fun and games though. It also includes 24 utilities/applications (programming languages, monitors, an assembler, text editor, terminal program and more) and if that isn't enough, it's also a flexible RAM expander (3K, 8K, 16K, 32K and 32K + 3K). To make it easy to configure and use, the Mega-Cart comes with a menu system (that includes music no less) and it's able to remember all your configuration settings too. How neat is that? I haven't been this excited since I actually got my VIC-20. :) If you want to know more about or are interested in purchasing the Mega-Cart (the price is $100 USD) then visit the website: -- Golan Klinger Dark is the suede that mows like a harvest. From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jan 12 08:42:48 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 09:42:48 -0500 Subject: How to tell differential scsi drives and cards apart In-Reply-To: <2877B33C3A8B42B2917A94952AAA92F3@game> References: <2877B33C3A8B42B2917A94952AAA92F3@game> Message-ID: <496B56E8.70902@gmail.com> Teo Zenios wrote: > Is there an easy way to tell if a SCSI controller or HD is LVD or > HVD? My understanding is that HVD was the first type used and was > just called differential F/W and then LVD came out so the old > standard was then called HVD. The part number on the chip. Peace... Sridhar From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Jan 12 09:13:11 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 07:13:11 -0800 Subject: "Tyrotek" analog computer In-Reply-To: <496AFA01.7F8AA221@cs.ubc.ca> References: <49699ECB.E8A9D0D2@cs.ubc.ca> <496AFA01.7F8AA221@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 00:06:26 -0800 > From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca > To: General at invalid.domain > CC: > Subject: Re: "Tyrotek" analog computer > > dwight elvey wrote: >> >>> From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca >>> >>> I'm currently working on refurbishing a small analog computer from the >>> mid-60's. It has the name "Tyrotek" on the front panel, in the middle of a sine >>> wave curve. (My) web searches turn up zippo about this name (other than some >>> guy using the word as a moniker). >>> >>> The only other clue to a manufacturer is "Non Linear Mfg." in the foil of the >>> printed circuit boards. No model number, no identification plate. >>> >>> While it is smaller for an analog computer and appears to be intended as an >>> educational or training unit, it is built to industrial standards, with a nice >>> sizeable plugboard using standard IBM plugboard wires, fiberglass PCBs, >>> discrete FET-input op-amps, etc., so it's not just some gimmicky thing. >>> >>> Eventually I'll have a web page for it, but right now I'm curious as to it's >>> manufacturer origins. Just a guess, but one line of speculation I'm making is >>> that "Non Linear Mfg." may have been the manufacturing arm of Non-Linear >>> Systems of digital voltmeter fame, and Tyrotek was a subsidiary of, or >>> otherwise associated, with NLS. >>> >> >> Hi >> Sounds intresting. I do question the date. It is more likely in the >> 70's. You might look at some of the date codes from the parts. >> How many amps does it have? Can they all be configured as integrators? >> Any special operators like multipliers? Does it have a two speed >> integrator function like the Comdynas? >> Dwight > > Oh, it really is mid-60's, date codes are one of the first things I look for > on any piece of quipment. Latest date code is 6734 on a 'lytic cap, > 66xx on some other components. > If you were questioning the date because of my reference to op-amps, > ("discrete FET-input op-amps"), to clarify, I mean the entire op-amp > is discrete, not discrete FETs feeding an op-amp IC. There are no ICs > in the unit. > > There are a total of 10 amps. 4 can be configured as integrators or summers, 4 > are just summers. 2 have associated circuitry to make them into multipliers > or dividers, or can be used as just summers. Hi It does sound like what was used as the basis for the Comdyna 10. You might email the fellow at Comdyna and ask if he recognizes this machine. > > I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to as the two-speed function, but > there was an option (going by the front panel labeling and some wiring) (option > not installed) to change the "Time Scale" for the integrators. I believe it > changed the integrating caps for all the amps, but it's a 'global' change, not > individually selectable per amp. Yes, that is what I was talking about. The Comdynas come with a switch that controls relays at each integrator( in parallel ) such that one can slow the time constants down. This is handy for plotting on a chart recorder. I think that it uses a factor of 30 but most any works as it is all done in parallel and as long as all is modelled as integrators and with differentiators( usually can be avoided ). > > The unit had been languishing in my basement for a few years, on the verge of > being thrown out. Now that I've gotten into it, it has been fun figuring out > something 'completely different', never having worked on or with one previously. > > Of course, I don't have the manual for the thing. I've done the schematic, > which has made it possible to figure out a lot of it. > There's not a lot on the web about analog computers, but there are a couple of > scans of manufacturer brochures and an article or two that are cluing me in to > the standard practices of the time. > > It's currently in a million pieces across 3 workbenches, almost ready for > reassembly. (Most of the nuts and screws and a few other metal parts had grown > that white powder that develops under certain conditions on some metal > surfaces. I've seen it on other equipment, I presume it's an oxide of the metal > plating, although it also has the appearance of a mildew or fungus. I'm not sure > what element the plating is. Fortunately, it's only a 'mechanical' issue, it isn't > affecting the circuitry or contacts.) Most likely zinc, lead or aluminum oxides. This is common for items store where they might have condensing moisture. > > If you have experience with these things I may be back asking some questions in > a while, once it's all together and functioning and I can put up some pictures. I've played some with them. A fun example is the bouncing ball example from the EC-1 by heath kit. It will give you an idea of how one models a physical system into the computer. Look at the configuration. There is a way to reduce the number of op-amps needed by one ( I forget now ). It saves two free amps that can be used to create a sine/cosine oscillator for the ball instead of the 60 Hz one in the example. For use with a plotter, you don't want the ball anyway, it is just fun on an oscilloscope but not needed otherwise. A dot bounces just as nicely. Dwight > > What can be done with it when it's functioning will be another question. > The only built-in 'output' device is a solitary analog meter. I have my eye on > an HP analog chart recorder buried at the radio museum, to use as an output > recorder, but I expect it has ink issues in the way of getting it going. > > (At least the plugboard looks cool.) _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_012009 From rescue at hawkmountain.net Mon Jan 12 10:00:52 2009 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 11:00:52 -0500 Subject: How to tell differential scsi drives and cards apart In-Reply-To: <496B56E8.70902@gmail.com> References: <2877B33C3A8B42B2917A94952AAA92F3@game> <496B56E8.70902@gmail.com> Message-ID: <496B6934.1060602@hawkmountain.net> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Teo Zenios wrote: >> Is there an easy way to tell if a SCSI controller or HD is LVD or >> HVD? My understanding is that HVD was the first type used and was >> just called differential F/W and then LVD came out so the old >> standard was then called HVD. > > The part number on the chip. I usually get clued in on controllers via termination resistor chips/packs. Probably not guaranteed to be a perfect way, but in my limited amount of HVD stuff, it has at least been 100% correct so far :-) -- Curt > > Peace... Sridhar > From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Mon Jan 12 10:07:39 2009 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 08:07:39 -0800 Subject: "Tyrotek" analog computer In-Reply-To: <496AFA01.7F8AA221@cs.ubc.ca> References: <49699ECB.E8A9D0D2@cs.ubc.ca> <496AFA01.7F8AA221@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <496B6ACB.4080106@sbcglobal.net> Brent Hilpert wrote: > dwight elvey wrote: > >>> From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca >>> >>> I'm currently working on refurbishing a small analog computer from the >>> mid-60's. It has the name "Tyrotek" on the front panel, in the middle of a sine >>> wave curve. (My) web searches turn up zippo about this name (other than some >>> guy using the word as a moniker). >>> >>> The only other clue to a manufacturer is "Non Linear Mfg." in the foil of the >>> printed circuit boards. No model number, no identification plate. >>> >>> While it is smaller for an analog computer and appears to be intended as an >>> educational or training unit, it is built to industrial standards, with a nice >>> sizeable plugboard using standard IBM plugboard wires, fiberglass PCBs, >>> discrete FET-input op-amps, etc., so it's not just some gimmicky thing. >>> >>> Eventually I'll have a web page for it, but right now I'm curious as to it's >>> manufacturer origins. Just a guess, but one line of speculation I'm making is >>> that "Non Linear Mfg." may have been the manufacturing arm of Non-Linear >>> Systems of digital voltmeter fame, and Tyrotek was a subsidiary of, or >>> otherwise associated, with NLS. >>> >>> >> Hi >> Sounds intresting. I do question the date. It is more likely in the >> 70's. You might look at some of the date codes from the parts. >> How many amps does it have? Can they all be configured as integrators? >> Any special operators like multipliers? Does it have a two speed >> integrator function like the Comdynas? >> Dwight >> > > Oh, it really is mid-60's, date codes are one of the first things I look for > on any piece of quipment. Latest date code is 6734 on a 'lytic cap, > 66xx on some other components. > If you were questioning the date because of my reference to op-amps, > ("discrete FET-input op-amps"), to clarify, I mean the entire op-amp > is discrete, not discrete FETs feeding an op-amp IC. There are no ICs > in the unit. > > There are a total of 10 amps. 4 can be configured as integrators or summers, 4 > are just summers. 2 have associated circuitry to make them into multipliers > or dividers, or can be used as just summers. > > I'm not sure exactly what you're referring to as the two-speed function, but > there was an option (going by the front panel labeling and some wiring) (option > not installed) to change the "Time Scale" for the integrators. I believe it > changed the integrating caps for all the amps, but it's a 'global' change, not > individually selectable per amp. > > The unit had been languishing in my basement for a few years, on the verge of > being thrown out. Now that I've gotten into it, it has been fun figuring out > something 'completely different', never having worked on or with one previously. > > Of course, I don't have the manual for the thing. I've done the schematic, > which has made it possible to figure out a lot of it. > There's not a lot on the web about analog computers, but there are a couple of > scans of manufacturer brochures and an article or two that are cluing me in to > the standard practices of the time. > > It's currently in a million pieces across 3 workbenches, almost ready for > reassembly. (Most of the nuts and screws and a few other metal parts had grown > that white powder that develops under certain conditions on some metal > surfaces. I've seen it on other equipment, I presume it's an oxide of the metal > plating, although it also has the appearance of a mildew or fungus. I'm not sure > what element the plating is. Fortunately, it's only a 'mechanical' issue, it isn't > affecting the circuitry or contacts.) > > If you have experience with these things I may be back asking some questions in > a while, once it's all together and functioning and I can put up some pictures. > > What can be done with it when it's functioning will be another question. > The only built-in 'output' device is a solitary analog meter. I have my eye on > an HP analog chart recorder buried at the radio museum, to use as an output > recorder, but I expect it has ink issues in the way of getting it going. > > (At least the plugboard looks cool.) > > One output device to use is an oscilloscope. Here's a photo of my Comdyna generating a double-well chaos equation: http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/analog/chaos1.jpg Bob From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Mon Jan 12 10:33:38 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 11:33:38 -0500 Subject: New Honeywell H316 video on youtube References: <49694A11.3070709@hachti.de> <13c501c97459$047d9460$46fea8c0@DeskJara> <496A3704.13957.BBC6667@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <18795.28898.26137.148310@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> >>>>> "Chuck" == Chuck Guzis writes: Chuck> On 11 Jan 2009 at 23:55, Alexandre Souza wrote: >> Where can I buy the "blank" paper roll? Chuck> Find a dealer in your area who handles old CNC equipment. A Chuck> lot of that stuff is still running and needs paper tape. In Chuck> the US, here's a source: Chuck> http://www.westnc.com/paper-tape-rolls.html Wow, they even have rolls for 5 channel tape (for all you old "green keys" operators out there). ni1d From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Jan 12 13:20:54 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 11:20:54 -0800 Subject: How to tell differential scsi drives and cards apart In-Reply-To: <49697B83.9060007@jwsss.com> References: <2877B33C3A8B42B2917A94952AAA92F3@game> <49696A20.9050001@gmail.com> <49697B83.9060007@jwsss.com> Message-ID: From: jim s Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 8:54 PM > The HVD bus is designed such that if you plug it into a SE bus it will > go into reset and go passive. There is a signal DIFFSNS on the HVD that > will disable the bus. Not good, but better than nothing if you mess up > and plug them together. I don't think so. The XKL Toad-1 was designed with FASTWIDE differential SCSI, and any single-ended peripheral that got connected accidentally was guaranteed to lose the magic smoke and go off to live with . We were in complete accordance with the SCSI specs. [ Regarding Paralan: ] > The link below points to a company who makes the converters. Sometimes > they are available on Ebay, and there are some repackaged by Compaq and > HP that show up. They make both the 50 an 68 pin versions. I doubt > they will work over 5m/sec with HVD involved, however. They work at 10MB/second on the Toad. We had to include one in the system because HP DAT drives and Quantum DLT drives were unavailable with differential interfaces. I purchased a Paralan HVD/LVD converter here in order to attach a SCSI JBoD array to the Toad, in anticipation of hosting a lot of data. Rich Alderson Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell From rescue at hawkmountain.net Mon Jan 12 14:25:51 2009 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 15:25:51 -0500 Subject: XKL TOAD (was: Re: How to tell differential scsi drives and cards apart) In-Reply-To: References: <2877B33C3A8B42B2917A94952AAA92F3@game> <49696A20.9050001@gmail.com> <49697B83.9060007@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <496BA74F.6060907@hawkmountain.net> Rich Alderson wrote: > From: jim s > Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 8:54 PM > > >> The HVD bus is designed such that if you plug it into a SE bus it will >> go into reset and go passive. There is a signal DIFFSNS on the HVD that >> will disable the bus. Not good, but better than nothing if you mess up >> and plug them together. >> > > I don't think so. The XKL Toad-1 was designed with FASTWIDE differential SCSI, > and any single-ended peripheral that got connected accidentally was guaranteed > to lose the magic smoke and go off to live with . We were > in complete accordance with the SCSI specs. > > Rich Alderson > Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project > Vulcan, Inc. > 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 > Seattle, WA 98104 > > mailto:RichA at vulcan.com > (206) 342-2239 > (206) 465-2916 cell > > speaking of XLK TOAD.... anyone have any idea how many of these things were made ? Any idea how many are still out there to be found ? They look pretty cool... and other than an emulator, I do believe the (physically) smallest 10 to be had, no ? -- Curt From slawmaster at gmail.com Mon Jan 12 14:32:26 2009 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 15:32:26 -0500 Subject: XKL TOAD (was: Re: How to tell differential scsi drives and cards apart) In-Reply-To: <496BA74F.6060907@hawkmountain.net> References: <2877B33C3A8B42B2917A94952AAA92F3@game> <49696A20.9050001@gmail.com> <49697B83.9060007@jwsss.com> <496BA74F.6060907@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <7d3530220901121232g7e6862b6x85cb5a99b8dd0dea@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 3:25 PM, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > Rich Alderson wrote: >> >> From: jim s >> Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 8:54 PM >> >> >>> >>> The HVD bus is designed such that if you plug it into a SE bus it will >>> go into reset and go passive. There is a signal DIFFSNS on the HVD that >>> will disable the bus. Not good, but better than nothing if you mess up >>> and plug them together. >>> >> >> I don't think so. The XKL Toad-1 was designed with FASTWIDE differential >> SCSI, >> and any single-ended peripheral that got connected accidentally was >> guaranteed >> to lose the magic smoke and go off to live with . We >> were >> in complete accordance with the SCSI specs. >> >> Rich Alderson >> Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project >> Vulcan, Inc. >> 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 >> Seattle, WA 98104 >> >> mailto:RichA at vulcan.com >> (206) 342-2239 >> (206) 465-2916 cell >> >> > > speaking of XLK TOAD.... anyone have any idea how many of > these things were made ? Any idea how many are still out there > to be found ? > > They look pretty cool... and other than an emulator, I do believe the > (physically) smallest 10 to be had, no ? > > -- Curt > > I'd sure like to find one... be interested to see how many remain. John -- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Jan 12 15:32:57 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 13:32:57 -0800 Subject: XKL TOAD (was: Re: How to tell differential scsi drives and cards apart) In-Reply-To: <7d3530220901121232g7e6862b6x85cb5a99b8dd0dea@mail.gmail.com> References: <2877B33C3A8B42B2917A94952AAA92F3@game> <49696A20.9050001@gmail.com> <49697B83.9060007@jwsss.com> <496BA74F.6060907@hawkmountain.net> <7d3530220901121232g7e6862b6x85cb5a99b8dd0dea@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: From: John Floren Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 12:32 PM > On Mon, Jan 12, 2009 at 3:25 PM, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. > wrote: >> Rich Alderson wrote: >>> The XKL Toad-1 was designed with FASTWIDE differential SCSI, [snip] >> speaking of XLK TOAD.... anyone have any idea how many of >> these things were made ? Any idea how many are still out there >> to be found ? >> They look pretty cool... and other than an emulator, I do believe the >> (physically) smallest 10 to be had, no ? I *think* the Systems Concepts SC-25 fit into a BA-23 style cabinet, but I never saw one. (My only experience with SC boxen was the SC-30M at Stanford LOTS, which was a 5ft tall 30in square cabinet.) If that's true, it might have been epsilon smaller than the Toad-1. > I'd sure like to find one... be interested to see how many remain. We built fewer than 20. A dozen were used in-house as a platform for the next product, which went through several years of iterating into what you now find on the XKL web site. (They may still be in use, but I haven't worked for XKL for nearly 6 years and don't know what they're using these days.) Two were sold to MCI/BT Tymnet, to replace their 4 KL-10 systems. These were retired shortly after the turn of the century, and placed into the hands of the gentlemen responsible for their being placed into service at Tymshare. One is still in private hands; the other was scrapped by an operation manager who did not know what he was doing (or perhaps he did). One went to Digital in exchange for a revision of the licensing contract for 36-bit software. It is now in the possession of the Computer History Museum. One was purchased by Paul Allen, and is freely available for public access. Accounts can be requested through the PDP Planet web site, under the Community button. One was given to a well-known collector of PDP-10 equipment who has been a friend to the owner of XKL since the early days of cisco Systems. It included the only copy of the Tops-10 port for the Toad-1. > John > -- > Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn "That is not dead which can sleeping lie, And with strange eons even death may die." (Otherwise, none of us would be doing any of this, whether as a hobby or in a professional context.) Rich Alderson Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 12 15:59:30 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 14:59:30 -0700 Subject: XKL TOAD (was: Re: How to tell differential scsi drives and cards apart) In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 12 Jan 2009 13:32:57 -0800. Message-ID: You can get an account on the XKL TOAD at pdpplanet. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From uban at ubanproductions.com Mon Jan 12 17:01:07 2009 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 17:01:07 -0600 Subject: NCCC - Sunfire V100 / Solaris In-Reply-To: <17554.62.140.137.30.1231605335.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <17554.62.140.137.30.1231605335.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <496BCBB3.4010601@ubanproductions.com> Hi Ed, Yes, it looks like Solaris can access either TTY via configuration, but I still have the LOMlite login/password problem to work around be fore I will be able to install from the Solaris CD. I wish that sun had a forum, but they don't appear to... --tom Ed Groenenberg wrote: > Hello Tom, > > If I'm not mistaken, the serial B can also be used. > > Regards, > > Ed > > >> Hi Ed, >> >> How do I access the Solaris console without going through LOM? >> >> Best, >> >> --tom >> >> Ed Groenenberg wrote: >>> Hello Tom, >>> >>> you do not really need the lom, just use the button on the back >>> to power it on. >>> You could also go to 'docs.sun.com' there's a ton of documentation. >>> Take a look at book '816-2756' this should bring you up to speed. >>> >>> I use a V120, but it's been a while since I had to fiddle around >>> with the lom >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Ed >>> >>>> Ed, >>>> >>>> Thanks, I new somebody on this list would have something useful >>>> to say about this problem. I ordered a copy of Solaris 10 with >>>> this in mind and so my last questions (at this time) are will I be >>>> able to use the installation CD without knowing the LOMlite login >>>> and password? Will it boot the CD by default when I manually power >>>> on the machine? Will I be able see and control the console? >>>> >>>> --tnx >>>> --tom >>>> >>>> Ed Groenenberg wrote: >>>>> Tom, >>>>> >>>>> Best way is to install Solrais 8, 9 or 10. >>>>> Then install the SUNWlomu, SUNWlomr & SUNWlomm packages >>>>> followed by patch 110208-22. Then use the lom tool to >>>>> manipulate the lom config to your likings. >>>>> BTW, the patch has the latest firmware for the lom, so you >>>>> can also upgrade it if wanted. >>>>> >>>>> Regards, >>>>> >>>>> Ed >>>>> >>>>>> Sorry about the lack of true classic computing content to this >>>>>> question, but it does relate to a little bit older machine, a >>>>>> Sunfire V100... >>>>>> >>>>>> I purchased one of these from eBay in hopes of possibly upgrading >>>>>> my home firewall and discovered that the machine has a Lights-Out- >>>>>> Management (LOM) CPU controlling the main UltraSPARC IIi processor. >>>>>> The LOM runs a monitor program (LOMlite) which on this particular >>>>>> machine is currently configured to require a login/password when >>>>>> communicating with the machine over the console serial port. >>>>>> >>>>>> >From seemingly endless google searching, it sounds like I should be >>>>>> able to break out of the LOMlite login/password cycle by resetting >>>>>> the machine with the JP13 jumper. When I do this, LOM is reset, a >>>>>> few seemingly ok diagnostic messages are emitted, and then the login >>>>>> password are again requested. >>>>>> >>>>>> I was unable to determine if there is some sort of default login >>>>>> password. >>>>>> >>>>>> The only path seems to be to possibly load the PATA IDE hard drive >>>>>> with Solaris, and then use the Solaris tools to reset the LOM setup. >>>>>> >>>>>> Does anyone on this list have any experience with this machine? >>>>>> >>>>>> --tnx >>>>>> --tom >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > > > From onymouse at garlic.com Mon Jan 12 08:15:34 2009 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 06:15:34 -0800 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: <200901110954.29968.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <20090110150130.C5A5FBA4DA5@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <200901110954.29968.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <496B5086.5090603@garlic.com> Wuh? Huh? DDJ is ending AGAIN? Seriously: Is this 1 April? I have the last 3 years up to the last (or first?) time they stopped publishing 10 or so years ago. Never did hear that they resumed. Never saw the mag on any of the racks anywhere since. == jd California, n.: From Latin "calor", meaning "heat" (as in English "calorie" or Spanish "caliente"); and "fornia'" for "sexual intercourse" or "fornication." Hence: Tierra de California, "the land of hot sex." -- Ed Moran -- From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Jan 12 21:09:27 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 19:09:27 -0800 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: <496B5086.5090603@garlic.com> References: <20090110150130.C5A5FBA4DA5@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <200901110954.29968.rtellason@verizon.net>, <496B5086.5090603@garlic.com> Message-ID: ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jd [onymouse at garlic.com] Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 6:15 AM To: General at bakaboy.onymouse.ws; Discussion@ Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs to cease? Wuh? Huh? DDJ is ending AGAIN? Seriously: Is this 1 April? I have the last 3 years up to the last (or first?) time they stopped publishing 10 or so years ago. Never did hear that they resumed. Never saw the mag on any of the racks anywhere since. == jd California, n.: From Latin "calor", meaning "heat" (as in English "calorie" or Spanish "caliente"); and "fornia'" for "sexual intercourse" or "fornication." Hence: Tierra de California, "the land of hot sex." -- Ed Moran -- From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Jan 12 21:22:37 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 19:22:37 -0800 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: References: <20090110150130.C5A5FBA4DA5@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <200901110954.29968.rtellason@verizon.net>, <496B5086.5090603@garlic.com>, Message-ID: Oh bugger - what did I hit to send an empty email? Sorry. I was going to say: the last time I bought DDJ was when it ran an article about an embedded OS my company made. That was perhaps five years ago. It was depressing to see how slender a magazine had replaced the robust journal I recalled from the Olden Days. As computing becomes commoditized, there is less and less focus on the hobbyist - the people who created much of this industry in the first place! Amateur radio saw a very similar glide path, IMHO. The difference is that amateur radio still offers a unique social opportunity, while computing per se does not require the same commitment to technical knowledge to provide a social experience. In other words: to be a ham and converse with people in distant lands, you still have to know something about electronics, radio theory and communications law. To surf, email, blog, Twitter, etc., you have to know how to read the numbers on your credit card. The social experiences in computing are gravitating to niche interests - such as ours. I'm not complaining, but it is a touch sad that DDJ, C Users Journal and the like are part of history. It was fun to see people argue about the syntax of some obscure C construct or the virtues of one architecture over another, and even more fun to weigh in. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: Ian King Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 7:09 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Dr. Dobbs to cease? ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jd [onymouse at garlic.com] Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 6:15 AM To: General at bakaboy.onymouse.ws; Discussion@ Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs to cease? Wuh? Huh? DDJ is ending AGAIN? Seriously: Is this 1 April? I have the last 3 years up to the last (or first?) time they stopped publishing 10 or so years ago. Never did hear that they resumed. Never saw the mag on any of the racks anywhere since. == jd California, n.: From Latin "calor", meaning "heat" (as in English "calorie" or Spanish "caliente"); and "fornia'" for "sexual intercourse" or "fornication." Hence: Tierra de California, "the land of hot sex." -- Ed Moran -- From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Jan 12 23:37:25 2009 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 23:37:25 -0600 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: References: <20090110150130.C5A5FBA4DA5@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <200901110954.29968.rtellason@verizon.net>, <496B5086.5090603@garlic.com>, Message-ID: <496C2895.1020203@oldskool.org> Ian King wrote: > The social experiences in computing are gravitating to niche interests - such as ours. An excellent observation, and one that has been hard for me to adjust to. My memories of dialing BBSes are fond because using a BBS wasn't always trivial, so the people you met via BBSes had to have at least a base level of intelligence in order for you to meet. One consolation is that the global nature of "everyone has internet access" leads to message groups like this one, and the ability to connect with similar-interest people globally without paying out the tooth for it. I have worked with people in my hobbies in the last ten years that I never would have met otherwise, thanks to the internet becoming a commodity (hell, in my house, it's a *utility*). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Jan 13 00:13:05 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 22:13:05 -0800 Subject: "Tyrotek" analog computer References: <49699ECB.E8A9D0D2@cs.ubc.ca> <496AFA01.7F8AA221@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <496C30F1.75C99D3@cs.ubc.ca> dwight elvey wrote: > > > From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca > > There are a total of 10 amps. 4 can be configured as integrators or summers, 4 > > are just summers. 2 have associated circuitry to make them into multipliers > > or dividers, or can be used as just summers. > > Hi > It does sound like what was used as the basis for the Comdyna 10. > You might email the fellow at Comdyna and ask if he recognizes this > machine. Found the web page, and yes, it does seem similar in size and functionality to the Comdyna GP-6 or 10. I'll follow up with him as you suggest. > > It's currently in a million pieces across 3 workbenches, almost ready for > > reassembly. (Most of the nuts and screws and a few other metal parts had grown > > that white powder that develops under certain conditions on some metal > > surfaces. I've seen it on other equipment, I presume it's an oxide of the metal > > plating, although it also has the appearance of a mildew or fungus. I'm not sure > > what element the plating is. Fortunately, it's only a 'mechanical' issue, it isn't > > affecting the circuitry or contacts.) > > Most likely zinc, lead or aluminum oxides. This is common for items store > where they might have condensing moisture. In it's 'normal' form the plating has a flat white-grey appearance, no blue or yellow tinge as one gets with other plates. To my observation it was used roughly from the late-30's/40s to the 60s/early-70's and then (thankfully) seems to have fallen out of favour. > I've played some with them. A fun example is the bouncing ball example > from the EC-1 by heath kit. It will give you an idea of how one models > a physical system into the computer. > Look at the configuration. There is a way to reduce the number of > op-amps needed by one ( I forget now ). It saves two free amps that > can be used to create a sine/cosine oscillator for the ball instead of > the 60 Hz one in the example. For use with a plotter, you don't want > the ball anyway, it is just fun on an oscilloscope but not needed > otherwise. A dot bounces just as nicely. .. have to see if one can still get the manual for the EC-1, re discussion of a couple of weeks ago about access to Heath manuals being removed from the web. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Jan 13 00:13:35 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 22:13:35 -0800 Subject: "Tyrotek" analog computer References: <49699ECB.E8A9D0D2@cs.ubc.ca> <496AFA01.7F8AA221@cs.ubc.ca> <496B6ACB.4080106@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <496C310E.97C8F938@cs.ubc.ca> Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > > Brent Hilpert wrote: > > What can be done with it when it's functioning will be another question. > > The only built-in 'output' device is a solitary analog meter. I have my eye on > > an HP analog chart recorder buried at the radio museum, to use as an output > > recorder, but I expect it has ink issues in the way of getting it going. > > One output device to use is an oscilloscope. > > Here's a photo of my Comdyna generating a double-well > chaos equation: > > http://www.dvq.com/oldcomp/analog/chaos1.jpg Neat, hadn't seen these Comdynas before you and Dwight mentioned them. One issue is this Tyrotek doesn't have an automatic cycling mode, it looks like such was another option. The control states are Reset (initial conditions), Operate (calculate) and Hold, no "Repeat-Op". So to use it with a scope I would have to build a cycling unit, (possible, the connections are there to do it, but something more to do), or, I guess, build oscillators as part of the program. I can almost trace out the program from your photo, but do you have it written or diagrammed in some format that could be easily communicated? I take it there are back-panel connections to the scope in the setup you show, I see only the one feed to the scope. From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 13 00:41:48 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 23:41:48 -0700 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 12 Jan 2009 06:15:34 -0800. <496B5086.5090603@garlic.com> Message-ID: They deserve to die. The magazine has been worthless for a long, long time. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 13 00:45:16 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 23:45:16 -0700 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 12 Jan 2009 19:22:37 -0800. Message-ID: In article , Ian King writes: > I'm not complaining, but it is a touch sad that DDJ, C Users Journal and > the like are part of history. It was fun to see people argue about the > syntax of some obscure C construct or the virtues of one architecture > over another, and even more fun to weigh in. -- Ian The same experience exists today, its called the 'net. Whether its mailing lists, or comp.lang.c++, or a blog, the social interaction is still there -- its just not mediated by a dead tree magazine. We don't *need* the magazines as a springboard for our conversations anymore -- we can talk to each other directly. The community of programmers is more alive than ever from where I sit, its just not happening on the pages of dead tree magazines like BYTE or DDJ. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 13 00:46:31 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 23:46:31 -0700 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 12 Jan 2009 23:37:25 -0600. <496C2895.1020203@oldskool.org> Message-ID: In article <496C2895.1020203 at oldskool.org>, Jim Leonard writes: > An excellent observation, and one that has been hard for me to adjust > to. My memories of dialing BBSes are fond because using a BBS wasn't > always trivial, so the people you met via BBSes had to have at least a > base level of intelligence in order for you to meet. I suppose that depends on which BBS you used; around Utah, the biggest BBS was a multi-line chat system called "Lower Lights" and believe me the minimum intelligence level needed to get on that system was pretty low. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From brain at jbrain.com Tue Jan 13 00:54:05 2009 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 00:54:05 -0600 Subject: Price of 1kB SRAM in late 1970's? Message-ID: <496C3A8D.8090706@jbrain.com> Anyone have a rough idea? Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jan 13 01:09:20 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 00:09:20 -0700 Subject: Price of 1kB SRAM in late 1970's? In-Reply-To: <496C3A8D.8090706@jbrain.com> References: <496C3A8D.8090706@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <496C3E20.6040708@jetnet.ab.ca> Jim Brain wrote: > Anyone have a rough idea? Time to check out old catalogs. What size ram? 128x8 or 1024x1. Current 2102 prices are $1.50 to $2.00. link below memory prices 1958 to 2008 http://www.jcmit.com/memoryprice.htm > Jim From jws at jwsss.com Mon Jan 12 17:00:27 2009 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 15:00:27 -0800 Subject: How to tell differential scsi drives and cards apart In-Reply-To: References: <2877B33C3A8B42B2917A94952AAA92F3@game> <49696A20.9050001@gmail.com> <49697B83.9060007@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <496BCB8B.5060800@jwsss.com> Rich Alderson wrote: > From: jim s > Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2009 8:54 PM > > >> The HVD bus is designed such that if you plug it into a SE bus it will >> go into reset and go passive. There is a signal DIFFSNS on the HVD that >> will disable the bus. Not good, but better than nothing if you mess up >> and plug them together. >> > > I don't think so. The XKL Toad-1 was designed with FASTWIDE differential SCSI, > and any single-ended peripheral that got connected accidentally was guaranteed > to lose the magic smoke and go off to live with . We were > in complete accordance with the SCSI specs. > We had a SCSI development system at Peer Protocols, as well as wide sniffer. on the sense side, with the sniffer, we did hadd an electrical design that could tolerate the misconnection of devices and not catch fire, though we had a standard adapter to go from differential to SE that you were supposed to use. The design used at least with our equipment would be in reset. I don't know what happend if you plugged something in with the power on, but if you connected the pile up and it was wrong and then powered things up, you were covered. Also I don't recall if there was any issues in the device order. My observation in the previous post had to do with seeing the reset on our analyzer when the HD device was connected and wondering why the bus was held reset. It was a non smoking situation. I wonder if perhaps the problem was with the fact it was wide and not the narrow variety of bus? The additional 8 bits and parity were sort of the bastard child added. on after the fact of the original design. It was quite a trick to figure out w/o watching the SCSI Domain info whether all 16 bits were active or just 8 in a give transfer. This might apply to hardware as well. Jim From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Jan 13 01:59:06 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 12 Jan 2009 23:59:06 -0800 Subject: Price of 1kB SRAM in late 1970's? References: <496C3A8D.8090706@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <496C49CA.1F68B994@cs.ubc.ca> Jim Brain wrote: > > Anyone have a rough idea? If you're talking bare chips: from the back pages of Kilobaud, May'77, SD Sales has a deal on 21L02's (1K*1,500nS): 8 for $12.95 Prices from other back-page retailers are similar, around 1.20 - 1.70 for 2102's. >From the same mag Sep'79, prices for a 2102 are about the same. Here's another deal from '79, 2114's (1K*4): 8 for $45-50, so still around 12$ per KByte. Granted, those are all probably floor sweepings. From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Tue Jan 13 03:59:38 2009 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 01:59:38 -0800 Subject: "Tyrotek" analog computer References: <49699ECB.E8A9D0D2@cs.ubc.ca> <496AFA01.7F8AA221@cs.ubc.ca> <496B6ACB.4080106@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <000c01c97565$a5e08030$0201a8c0@hal9000> Brent, I have a PDF of the schematic for the Heathkit EC-1 and / or there is a guy on Ebay selling the Operations manual for $8.00 and free shipping ; Item number - 120362320437 Best regards, Steven > dwight elvey wrote: > > > > > From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca > > > There are a total of 10 amps. 4 can be configured as integrators or summers, 4 > > > are just summers. 2 have associated circuitry to make them into multipliers > > > or dividers, or can be used as just summers. > > > > Hi > > It does sound like what was used as the basis for the Comdyna 10. > > You might email the fellow at Comdyna and ask if he recognizes this > > machine. > > Found the web page, and yes, it does seem similar in size and functionality to > the Comdyna GP-6 or 10. I'll follow up with him as you suggest. > > > > > It's currently in a million pieces across 3 workbenches, almost ready for > > > reassembly. (Most of the nuts and screws and a few other metal parts had grown > > > that white powder that develops under certain conditions on some metal > > > surfaces. I've seen it on other equipment, I presume it's an oxide of the metal > > > plating, although it also has the appearance of a mildew or fungus. I'm not sure > > > what element the plating is. Fortunately, it's only a 'mechanical' issue, it isn't > > > affecting the circuitry or contacts.) > > > > Most likely zinc, lead or aluminum oxides. This is common for items store > > where they might have condensing moisture. > > In it's 'normal' form the plating has a flat white-grey appearance, no blue or > yellow tinge as one gets with other plates. To my observation it was used > roughly from the late-30's/40s to the 60s/early-70's and then (thankfully) > seems to have fallen out of favour. > > > > I've played some with them. A fun example is the bouncing ball example > > from the EC-1 by heath kit. It will give you an idea of how one models > > a physical system into the computer. > > Look at the configuration. There is a way to reduce the number of > > op-amps needed by one ( I forget now ). It saves two free amps that > > can be used to create a sine/cosine oscillator for the ball instead of > > the 60 Hz one in the example. For use with a plotter, you don't want > > the ball anyway, it is just fun on an oscilloscope but not needed > > otherwise. A dot bounces just as nicely. > > .. have to see if one can still get the manual for the EC-1, re discussion of a > couple of weeks ago about access to Heath manuals being removed from the web. From austin at ozpass.co.uk Tue Jan 13 05:11:40 2009 From: austin at ozpass.co.uk (Austin Pass) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 11:11:40 +0000 Subject: NCCC - Sunfire V100 / Solaris In-Reply-To: <496BCBB3.4010601@ubanproductions.com> References: <17554.62.140.137.30.1231605335.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <496BCBB3.4010601@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: On 12 Jan 2009, at 23:01, Tom Uban wrote: > Hi Ed, > > Yes, it looks like Solaris can access either TTY via configuration, > but I still have the LOMlite login/password problem to work around > be fore I will be able to install from the Solaris CD. I wish that > sun had a forum, but they don't appear to... > > --tom comp.sys.sun.hardware is still very active though.... Plenty of "classic" Sun hardware discussion as well. -Austin. From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Jan 13 08:27:40 2009 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 06:27:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: <496C2895.1020203@oldskool.org> References: <20090110150130.C5A5FBA4DA5@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <200901110954.29968.rtellason@verizon.net>, <496B5086.5090603@garlic.com>, <496C2895.1020203@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 12 Jan 2009, Jim Leonard wrote: > have met otherwise, thanks to the internet becoming a commodity (hell, in my > house, it's a *utility*). > I think this is the case with many of us. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From blstuart at bellsouth.net Tue Jan 13 09:13:39 2009 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 15:13:39 +0000 Subject: Price of 1kB SRAM in late 1970's? In-Reply-To: <496C3A8D.8090706@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <011320091513.6639.496CAFA3000E3F4E000019EF22230682329B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> > Anyone have a rough idea? It depended on a lot of factors, but as one data point, I bought a 4K S-100 kit in around 78-79 for about $80. That would be $20/K in terms of a full board. Denser boards were cheaper per K, and of course a handful of chips would also be cheaper. BLS From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Jan 13 10:00:56 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 08:00:56 -0800 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: References: Your message of Mon, 12 Jan 2009 19:22:37 -0800. Message-ID: >-----Original Message----- >From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard >Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 10:45 PM >To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs to cease? > > >In article , > Ian King writes: > >> I'm not complaining, but it is a touch sad that DDJ, C Users Journal >and >> the like are part of history. It was fun to see people argue about >the >> syntax of some obscure C construct or the virtues of one architecture >> over another, and even more fun to weigh in. -- Ian > >The same experience exists today, its called the 'net. Whether its >mailing lists, or comp.lang.c++, or a blog, the social interaction is >still there -- its just not mediated by a dead tree magazine. We >don't *need* the magazines as a springboard for our conversations >anymore -- we can talk to each other directly. The community of >programmers is more alive than ever from where I sit, its just not >happening on the pages of dead tree magazines like BYTE or DDJ. >-- I disagree, and that's part of my original comment. That 'mediation' you denigrate is not terribly unlike what academic journals call 'peer review' - not just any goofball could shoot off his mouth. With the 'dead tree magazines' I knew there was some sort of editorial oversight, which raised the signal-to-noise ratio and lowered the waste of my time. And with multiple publications, I could choose my 'filter factor.' By comparison, it isn't at all uncommon for mailing list threads to get hijacked by various forms of distraction, and the blog has nowhere near the level of accountability to, well, anything. The open communication of the 'net and the focused delivery of a publication are two complementary concepts, and I'm sorry to see one of them apparently dying off. From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Tue Jan 13 10:05:17 2009 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 08:05:17 -0800 Subject: "Tyrotek" analog computer In-Reply-To: <496C30F1.75C99D3@cs.ubc.ca> References: <49699ECB.E8A9D0D2@cs.ubc.ca> <496AFA01.7F8AA221@cs.ubc.ca> <496C30F1.75C99D3@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <496CBBBD.7010308@sbcglobal.net> Brent Hilpert wrote: ---- snipped ------ > > > .. have to see if one can still get the manual for the EC-1, re discussion of a > couple of weeks ago about access to Heath manuals being removed from the web. > I put up my copy here: http://www.dvq.com/docs/oldhkits/EC1-OP.pdf Bob / / From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 13 10:19:11 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 11:19:11 -0500 Subject: XKL TOAD (was: Re: How to tell differential scsi drives and cards apart) In-Reply-To: References: <2877B33C3A8B42B2917A94952AAA92F3@game> <49696A20.9050001@gmail.com> <49697B83.9060007@jwsss.com> <496BA74F.6060907@hawkmountain.net> <7d3530220901121232g7e6862b6x85cb5a99b8dd0dea@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <45CDE429-2D35-4AE4-91DB-164B89DE9EDE@neurotica.com> On Jan 12, 2009, at 4:32 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: >> I'd sure like to find one... be interested to see how many remain. > > We built fewer than 20. A dozen were used in-house as a platform for > the next product, which went through several years of iterating into > what you now find on the XKL web site. (They may still be in use, but > I haven't worked for XKL for nearly 6 years and don't know what > they're using these days.) > > Two were sold to MCI/BT Tymnet, to replace their 4 KL-10 systems. > These were retired shortly after the turn of the century, and placed > into the hands of the gentlemen responsible for their being placed > into service at Tymshare. One is still in private hands; the other > was scrapped by an operation manager who did not know what he was > doing (or perhaps he did). > > One went to Digital in exchange for a revision of the licensing > contract for 36-bit software. It is now in the possession of the > Computer History Museum. > > One was purchased by Paul Allen, and is freely available for public > access. Accounts can be requested through the PDP Planet web site, > under the Community button. > > One was given to a well-known collector of PDP-10 equipment who has > been a friend to the owner of XKL since the early days of cisco > Systems. It included the only copy of the Tops-10 port for the > Toad-1. And one is in the possession of my acquaintance Peter Lothberg, unless that's who you're talking about in the last paragraph. (he has done a lot of work for Cisco) -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 13 10:21:18 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 11:21:18 -0500 Subject: How to tell differential scsi drives and cards apart In-Reply-To: <496BCB8B.5060800@jwsss.com> References: <2877B33C3A8B42B2917A94952AAA92F3@game> <49696A20.9050001@gmail.com> <49697B83.9060007@jwsss.com> <496BCB8B.5060800@jwsss.com> Message-ID: You wrote: > The HVD bus is designed such that if you plug it into a SE bus it will > go into reset and go passive. There is a signal DIFFSNS on the HVD > that > will disable the bus. Not good, but better than nothing if you > mess up > and plug them together. DIFFSENS is a nice idea, but some drives don't implement it. I've had differential drives go up in smoke because of this. Granted this was a long time ago (1993) and the drives were small (600MB?), so this was more in the days of creative interpretation of the SCSI standard. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Jan 13 11:16:19 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 12:16:19 -0500 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200901131216.19293.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 13 January 2009 11:00:56 am Ian King wrote: > >-----Original Message----- > >From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > >bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard > >Sent: Monday, January 12, 2009 10:45 PM > >To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs to cease? > > > > > >In article , > > > > Ian King writes: > >> I'm not complaining, but it is a touch sad that DDJ, C Users Journal > >> and the like are part of history. It was fun to see people argue about > >> the syntax of some obscure C construct or the virtues of one architecture > >> over another, and even more fun to weigh in. -- Ian > > > > The same experience exists today, its called the 'net. Whether its > > mailing lists, or comp.lang.c++, or a blog, the social interaction is > > still there -- its just not mediated by a dead tree magazine. We > > don't *need* the magazines as a springboard for our conversations > > anymore -- we can talk to each other directly. The community of > > programmers is more alive than ever from where I sit, its just not > > happening on the pages of dead tree magazines like BYTE or DDJ. > >-- > > I disagree, and that's part of my original comment. That 'mediation' you > denigrate is not terribly unlike what academic journals call 'peer review' > - not just any goofball could shoot off his mouth. With the 'dead tree > magazines' I knew there was some sort of editorial oversight, which raised > the signal-to-noise ratio and lowered the waste of my time. And with > multiple publications, I could choose my 'filter factor.' By comparison, > it isn't at all uncommon for mailing list threads to get hijacked by > various forms of distraction, and the blog has nowhere near the level of > accountability to, well, anything. > > The open communication of the 'net and the focused delivery of a > publication are two complementary concepts, and I'm sorry to see one of > them apparently dying off. I can't remember for sure, but it might've been Ted Nelson (?) who theorized a while back that the "editor" function would still be an important one as information trended toward being communicated electronically. This seems to be happening in such contexts as moderated lists, but it could stand to spread a bit further, I think. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Jan 13 11:08:40 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 12:08:40 -0500 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200901131208.41165.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 13 January 2009 01:46:31 am Richard wrote: > In article <496C2895.1020203 at oldskool.org>, > > Jim Leonard writes: > > An excellent observation, and one that has been hard for me to adjust > > to. My memories of dialing BBSes are fond because using a BBS wasn't > > always trivial, so the people you met via BBSes had to have at least a > > base level of intelligence in order for you to meet. > > I suppose that depends on which BBS you used; around Utah, the biggest > BBS was a multi-line chat system called "Lower Lights" and believe me > the minimum intelligence level needed to get on that system was pretty > low. This area was dominated for a while (pre-PC) by BBSs running on C64s, with pretty much the same crowd on all of them. There were a few exceptions, though, one guy running on an Apple of some sort (moved to a IIgs at some point) and another that ran on an Osborne Executive! On that one you got dropped at a CP/M prompt. :-) I have the external HD box w/ controller from that one sitting at about arm's length from me with the ST225 I retrofitted into it still in there. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Jan 13 11:06:11 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 12:06:11 -0500 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200901131206.11848.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 13 January 2009 01:45:16 am Richard wrote: > In article , > > Ian King writes: > > I'm not complaining, but it is a touch sad that DDJ, C Users Journal and > > the like are part of history. It was fun to see people argue about the > > syntax of some obscure C construct or the virtues of one architecture > > over another, and even more fun to weigh in. -- Ian > > The same experience exists today, its called the 'net. Whether its > mailing lists, or comp.lang.c++, or a blog, the social interaction is > still there -- its just not mediated by a dead tree magazine. We > don't *need* the magazines as a springboard for our conversations > anymore -- we can talk to each other directly. The community of > programmers is more alive than ever from where I sit, its just not > happening on the pages of dead tree magazines like BYTE or DDJ. Funny, I used to think of Byte as a hardware mag... It was when they drifted away from that I started to lose interest. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 13 12:29:25 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 11:29:25 -0700 Subject: ebay idiots Message-ID: Take a look at item # 130281137792 -- an HP2647A terminal with no keyboard, some rust and a fairly bad case of screen rot. The seller listed it yesterday for $900 initial bid or $1500 buy-it-now. I politely sent them a note explaining that their prices were an order of magnitude too high, particularly considering the condition of the unit. So what did they do? Dropped it to $400 opening bid. Yeah, right. Terminals are getting scarce, but not *that* scarce -- its more likely that people's interest in serial terminals would dry up before they'd pay through the nose for a 2647A. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jan 13 12:33:57 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 11:33:57 -0700 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: <200901131206.11848.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200901131206.11848.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <496CDE95.4070808@jetnet.ab.ca> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > Funny, I used to think of Byte as a hardware mag... I think it was when they dropped 'small systems' from their title they started to go down hill for hardware. > It was when they drifted away from that I started to lose interest. > From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 13 12:43:15 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 11:43:15 -0700 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 13 Jan 2009 12:06:11 -0500. <200901131206.11848.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: In article <200901131206.11848.rtellason at verizon.net>, "Roy J. Tellason" writes: > Funny, I used to think of Byte as a hardware mag... > > It was when they drifted away from that I started to lose interest. More hardware discussion happens on the net nowadays than ever happened in BYTE magazine, even in its heyday. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jan 13 12:44:02 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 11:44:02 -0700 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: <496CDE95.4070808@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200901131206.11848.rtellason@verizon.net> <496CDE95.4070808@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <496CE0F2.2090709@jetnet.ab.ca> bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > I think it was when they dropped 'small systems' from their title they > started to > go down hill for hardware. I liked the covers too... The island of smalltalk comes to mind. PS. What ever happend to smalltalk as hardware/programing language system? From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 13 12:52:26 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 11:52:26 -0700 Subject: Smalltalk (was: Dr. Dobbs to cease?) In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 13 Jan 2009 11:44:02 -0700. <496CE0F2.2090709@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: In article <496CE0F2.2090709 at jetnet.ab.ca>, "bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca" writes: > PS. What ever happend to smalltalk as hardware/programing language > system? Smalltalk is still around and has influenced the software development community fairly significantly through practitioners like Ward Cunningham and Kent Beck. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Jan 13 12:47:52 2009 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 12:47:52 -0600 Subject: Price of 1kB SRAM in late 1970's? In-Reply-To: <496C49CA.1F68B994@cs.ubc.ca> References: <496C3A8D.8090706@jbrain.com> <496C49CA.1F68B994@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20090113122836.06d6a290@mail.threedee.com> At 01:59 AM 1/13/2009, Brent Hilpert wrote: >Here's another deal from '79, 2114's (1K*4): 8 for $45-50, so still around 12$ >per KByte. Depending on how you measure it (via www.measuringworth.com) that $12 is about $35-40 in today's dollars. And by Xmas '08, Amazon.com sold a 4 gigabyte microSD for $9. - John From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Tue Jan 13 12:56:44 2009 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 13:56:44 -0500 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: <496CE0F2.2090709@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200901131206.11848.rtellason@verizon.net> <496CDE95.4070808@jetnet.ab.ca> <496CE0F2.2090709@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <5f7d1b0e0901131056o6eed12f7w4a432fec6affdcf1@mail.gmail.com> Smalltalk begat Squeak, which is what the Sugar interface is based on in those new XO laptops. I think that Cycling 74's music software is written in Smalltalk as well. On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 1:44 PM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca < bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> wrote: > bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > > I think it was when they dropped 'small systems' from their title they >> started to >> go down hill for hardware. >> > > I liked the covers too... The island of smalltalk comes to mind. > > PS. What ever happend to smalltalk as hardware/programing language > system? > > > > From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Jan 13 12:56:56 2009 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 12:56:56 -0600 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <496CE3F8.4020401@oldskool.org> Richard wrote: >> Funny, I used to think of Byte as a hardware mag... >> >> It was when they drifted away from that I started to lose interest. > > More hardware discussion happens on the net nowadays than ever > happened in BYTE magazine, even in its heyday. But that's because the viewship of online people has exceeded the readership of offline people. Twenty years ago, you could not say that, as the situation was reversed. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 13 12:40:05 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 11:40:05 -0700 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 13 Jan 2009 08:00:56 -0800. Message-ID: In article , Ian King writes: > >The same experience exists today, its called the 'net. Whether its > >mailing lists, or comp.lang.c++, or a blog, the social interaction is > >still there -- its just not mediated by a dead tree magazine. [...] > > I disagree, and that's part of my original comment. That 'mediation' > you denigrate Please don't pretend you know what I'm saying better than I do. I neither praised nor condemned the mediation through a dead tree magazine, I simply stated it as such. There are enough interactions on the net that you can pick and choose the ones that have the signal/noise ratio you like. In fact, comp.lang.c++ is moderated, so you're unlikely to get just any goofball shooting off his mouth. Pretending that the net is *only* unfiltered voices of dubious quality is the kind of retort I'd expect from an idiot like Dan Rather who lambasted all the bloggers "in their pajamas" who caught him red handed trying to pass off a fraud as journalism. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Jan 13 14:39:45 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 12:39:45 -0800 Subject: XKL TOAD (was: Re: How to tell differential scsi drives and cards apart) In-Reply-To: <45CDE429-2D35-4AE4-91DB-164B89DE9EDE@neurotica.com> References: <2877B33C3A8B42B2917A94952AAA92F3@game> <49696A20.9050001@gmail.com> <49697B83.9060007@jwsss.com> <496BA74F.6060907@hawkmountain.net> <7d3530220901121232g7e6862b6x85cb5a99b8dd0dea@mail.gmail.com> <45CDE429-2D35-4AE4-91DB-164B89DE9EDE@neurotica.com> Message-ID: From: Dave McGuire Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 8:19 AM > On Jan 12, 2009, at 4:32 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: [snip] >> Two were sold to MCI/BT Tymnet, to replace their 4 KL-10 systems. >> These were retired shortly after the turn of the century, and placed >> into the hands of the gentlemen responsible for their being placed >> into service at Tymshare. One is still in private hands; the other >> was scrapped by an operation manager who did not know what he was >> doing (or perhaps he did). >> One went to Digital in exchange for a revision of the licensing >> contract for 36-bit software. It is now in the possession of the >> Computer History Museum. >> One was purchased by Paul Allen, and is freely available for public >> access. Accounts can be requested through the PDP Planet web site, >> under the Community button. >> One was given to a well-known collector of PDP-10 equipment who has >> been a friend to the owner of XKL since the early days of cisco >> Systems. It included the only copy of the Tops-10 port for the >> Toad-1. > And one is in the possession of my acquaintance Peter Lothberg, > unless that's who you're talking about in the last paragraph. (he > has done a lot of work for Cisco) Mm-hmm. He was one of cisco's first customers in Europe. His friend, the owner of XKL, co-founded cisco Systems. Notice that I didn't use *anyone's* name who has not made ownership of a Toad-1 public knowledge. Rich Alderson Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 13 14:54:59 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 13:54:59 -0700 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 13 Jan 2009 12:56:56 -0600. <496CE3F8.4020401@oldskool.org> Message-ID: In article <496CE3F8.4020401 at oldskool.org>, Jim Leonard writes: > Richard wrote: > >> Funny, I used to think of Byte as a hardware mag... > >> > >> It was when they drifted away from that I started to lose interest. > > > > More hardware discussion happens on the net nowadays than ever > > happened in BYTE magazine, even in its heyday. > > But that's because the viewship of online people has exceeded the > readership of offline people. Twenty years ago, you could not say that, > as the situation was reversed. And the sun rises in the east. Sorry, but what you just said feels like a tautological statement to me. Yeah, 20 years ago there weren't as many people online. But even 20 years ago (that's 1989), BYTE was already dead (last issue July '98) and DDJ was already declining. There was a point when I regularly went to the newsstand to seek out both of those magazines, but by 1990 that time had already come and gone for both of them. I think I had given up on BYTE a few years before it ceased publication. That DDJ has hung on this long shows some determination on the part of its staff, but having received their last print issue in the mail just the other day, I would say that it was a rather pathetic end to that magazine. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jan 13 16:56:18 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 22:56:18 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Flexicord cables get bent... and stay that way Message-ID: <543255.49512.qm@web23402.mail.ird.yahoo.com> This is cool, or is it just me? Anyway, I suspect there might be uses for these special cables should they cross-breed with a parallel cable or other retro cables :) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk http://www.engadget.com/2009/01/13/flexicord-cables-get-bent-and-stay-that-way/ | Comments Ever have a cable you wanted to strangle? Well you're not alone, apparently. A company called E-Filliate issued a new series of USB, HDMI, Cat5, S-Video, and composite cables called Flexicord at CES this year which will bend -- and stay -- in any position you please, thus eliminating that frustration you must feel every time you plug in your camera or hook up your high fidelity sound system. The cables act like pipe cleaner or Gumby, so you can twist and shape them as you please, though apparently Pokey had to be killed and dissected so the technology could be obtained. Enjoy your new cable, murderers. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 13 17:04:57 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 15:04:57 -0800 Subject: Flexicord cables get bent... and stay that way In-Reply-To: <543255.49512.qm@web23402.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <543255.49512.qm@web23402.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <496CAD99.21168.155B9CDC@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Jan 2009 at 22:56, Andrew Burton wrote: > > This is cool, or is it just me? > > Anyway, I suspect there might be uses for these special cables should they cross-breed with a parallel cable or other retro cables :) I've got a roll of #6 solid copper wire that behaves the same way... Cheers, Chuck From jason at havnet.net Tue Jan 13 17:31:09 2009 From: jason at havnet.net (HavNet) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 23:31:09 +0000 Subject: Commodore Pet 2001 Troubles Message-ID: <88975c85e2225a1fa7bdd355904e2518@webmail.havnetmail.net> Dear Fellow Enthusiasts ... Firstly, I must admit to being somewhat of a 'lurker' here reading with great interest the postings and never failing to be amazed at the shear amount of amassed knowledge on the subject. My thanks to you all. Is there anyone here that can help me with a Commodore Pet problem that is really starting bug me !! It is a Pet 2001 32N with a Computhink Pet II Disk Controller Board and a pair of Dual Computhink drives (Model : DKH 642-I). The machine starts up just fine and you can enter DISKMON by typing SYS11*4096 However, upon entering commands like $LOD,1,"FOO" the screen turns to a complete screen full of small squares - chequer board style. Upon the command $DIR,1 the screen briefly displays a boarder around the screen where the directory content would normally appear and as soon as the drive activates the screen turns to chequer board. I have done the usual of re-seating the IC's, and I am hoping this isn't failed ROM. Another clue maybe that for some reason, when the drives are activated, BOTH drives activate together, which obviously they shouldnt. I haven't yet gone to the lengths of scoping the control lines but will start there tommorrow evening ... Does this sound like a problem that anyone has enountered before? Are there any 'Petsperts' out there that could help get this machine back on the road? Thanks in Anticipation Jason Fitzpatrick www.ComputingHistory.org.uk From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jan 13 17:56:06 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 18:56:06 -0500 Subject: Commodore Pet 2001 Troubles In-Reply-To: <88975c85e2225a1fa7bdd355904e2518@webmail.havnetmail.net> References: <88975c85e2225a1fa7bdd355904e2518@webmail.havnetmail.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 13, 2009 at 6:31 PM, HavNet wrote: > Is there anyone here that can help me with a Commodore Pet problem that is really starting bug me !! I'll give it a shot. > It is a Pet 2001 32N with a Computhink Pet II Disk Controller Board and a pair of Dual Computhink drives (Model : DKH 642-I). Nice. I wanted a Computhink back in the day - I already had a bare 8" drive and couldn't afford a 2040 when they were new. Eventually, used 5.25" drives came down in price (some time after the 1541 and 2031 came out), so after a time, I went with genuine CBM disks. > The machine starts up just fine and you can enter DISKMON by typing SYS11*4096 OK. > However, upon entering commands like $LOD,1,"FOO" the screen turns to a complete screen full of small squares - chequer board > style. Upon the command $DIR,1 the screen briefly displays a boarder around the screen where the directory content would > normally appear and as soon as the drive activates the screen turns to chequer board. > > I have done the usual of re-seating the IC's, and I am hoping this isn't failed ROM. Given the scenarios I can imagine for your setup, it's an unfortunately easy explanation that satisfies your symptoms. > Another clue maybe that for some reason, when the drives are activated, BOTH > drives activate together, which obviously they shouldnt. I haven't yet gone to the > lengths of scoping the control lines but will start there tommorrow evening ... Interesting clue. > Does this sound like a problem that anyone has enountered before? Not me personally, but I've seen all sorts of strange behavior from bad ROMs (it doesn't happen often, but it does happen). > Are there any 'Petsperts' out there that could help get this machine back on the road? Well... do you have any other utility ROMs? BASIC 2.0 and BASIC 4.0 PETs have a simplistic "TIM" machine language monitor built-in. You can invoke it by SYS 1024 (or any other location with a zero byte), or there is an official entry point that I'm forgetting off the top of my head. Whether you have an add-on monitor program or use the built-in TIM, the syntax for a memory dump is the same. At the "." prompt, type "M B000 B020". Since you say your DISKMON program is at "11*4096", that's the entry point. I'm guessing things will look OK since you invoke it and you get a prompt back. What's probably happening is that the initialization code is patching "CHRGET" in zero page, which is normally used to fetch BASIC keywords for tokenization, but is often patched to extend the interactive command set. In your case, I'm guessing there'll be a pretty simple patch to check for an initial "$" and either jump off to DISKMON commands or back into BASIC for regular commands. Speaking of that, after you invoke DISKMON, do _all_ commands give you the checkerboard or just DISKMON commands? That can help distinguish where things are going wrong. I'm guessing that your interface board has an EPROM - one possibility is that your EPROM is undergoing bitrot from age. I do not have any technical info on your interface (I wish I did), but if you have schematics or a ROM dump, that could be very helpful. Reverse-engineering the interface would probably not be _too_ difficult, but reconstructing the firmware from scratch is rather unlikely to be feasible. So does anyone on the list have a ROM image for a Computhink interface? Schematics? One other resource to invoke is to suggest you join the CBM Hackers mailing list and ask questions there - there are many people on it that know deep and intimate details about PETs, but to be honest, there's more known about C= machines and peripherals than 3rd party devices, so the better the docs you have with your interface, the better off you might be. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jan 13 18:23:41 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 19:23:41 -0500 Subject: XKL TOAD (was: Re: How to tell differential scsi drives and cards apart) In-Reply-To: References: <2877B33C3A8B42B2917A94952AAA92F3@game> <49696A20.9050001@gmail.com> <49697B83.9060007@jwsss.com> <496BA74F.6060907@hawkmountain.net> <7d3530220901121232g7e6862b6x85cb5a99b8dd0dea@mail.gmail.com> <45CDE429-2D35-4AE4-91DB-164B89DE9EDE@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <265BA94E-F65C-4F87-A569-167DCAA39418@neurotica.com> On Jan 13, 2009, at 3:39 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: >> And one is in the possession of my acquaintance Peter Lothberg, >> unless that's who you're talking about in the last paragraph. (he >> has done a lot of work for Cisco) > > Mm-hmm. > > He was one of cisco's first customers in Europe. His friend, the > owner of XKL, co-founded cisco Systems. Notice that I didn't use > *anyone's* name who has not made ownership of a Toad-1 public > knowledge. As far as I'm aware, it is public knowledge. At least he never treated it as much of a secret. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jan 13 21:22:04 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 19:22:04 -0800 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: <496CE0F2.2090709@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200901131206.11848.rtellason@verizon.net> <496CDE95.4070808@jetnet.ab.ca> <496CE0F2.2090709@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca > > bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > >> I think it was when they dropped 'small systems' from their title they >> started to >> go down hill for hardware. > > I liked the covers too... The island of smalltalk comes to mind. > > PS. What ever happend to smalltalk as hardware/programing language > system? > Hi I'd never considered SmalTalk as a language that has a small foot print or as a language for hardware control. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_howitworks_012009 From tosteve at yahoo.com Tue Jan 13 22:14:26 2009 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 20:14:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Tandy 2100 for sale in Michigan Message-ID: <393148.11447.qm@web110609.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> This is not my system contact Donald below if interested ======================================================== Donald Case from Michigan writes: I have a functional Tandy 2100 w/monitor keyboard and mouse. It runs great but I don't know the passwords for the windows screen and so I was only able to play around on it. Please make a reasonable offer! Donald Case donaldrcase3 at gmail.com From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Jan 13 23:19:05 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 21:19:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: ebay idiots In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Jan 2009, Richard wrote: > Take a look at item # 130281137792 -- an HP2647A terminal with no > keyboard, some rust and a fairly bad case of screen rot. > > The seller listed it yesterday for $900 initial bid or $1500 > buy-it-now. > > I politely sent them a note explaining that their prices were an > order of magnitude too high, particularly considering the condition of > the unit. > > So what did they do? Dropped it to $400 opening bid. > > Yeah, right. > > Terminals are getting scarce, but not *that* scarce -- its more likely > that people's interest in serial terminals would dry up before they'd > pay through the nose for a 2647A. Now it's down to $99. Given its condition, free for shipping sounds like the best thing to expect. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Jan 13 23:36:04 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 00:36:04 -0500 Subject: XKL TOAD (was: Re: How to tell differential scsi drives and cards apart) In-Reply-To: References: <2877B33C3A8B42B2917A94952AAA92F3@game> <45CDE429-2D35-4AE4-91DB-164B89DE9EDE@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200901140036.04570.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 13 January 2009, Rich Alderson wrote: > He was one of cisco's first customers in Europe. His friend, the > owner of XKL, co-founded cisco Systems. Notice that I didn't use > *anyone's* name who has not made ownership of a Toad-1 public > knowledge. So, for curiosity's sake, how much money did a Toad-1 sell for when they were being produced? Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From robinson at shlrc.mq.edu.au Tue Jan 13 23:48:00 2009 From: robinson at shlrc.mq.edu.au (robinson at shlrc.mq.edu.au) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 16:48:00 +1100 (EST) Subject: TAXAN KS12R101S cuircuit required Message-ID: <34634.137.111.158.30.1231912080.squirrel@www.ling.mq.edu.au> Hi there, My TAXAN KS12R101S colour monitor for my Apple IIe is dead. A capacitor has exploded a long time ago, and electrolyte has corroded several parts. I have washed it in water, scrubbed the stuff off, dried it, and replaced 2 electros, but a resistor has corroded away to nothing, and I do not know its value. The monitor powers up, I can hear he EHT start, but no display. Does anyone know where I can get a circuit please. Regards Ray From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Jan 14 00:57:52 2009 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 22:57:52 -0800 Subject: NCCC - Sunfire V100 / Solaris In-Reply-To: <496BCBB3.4010601@ubanproductions.com> References: <17554.62.140.137.30.1231605335.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <496BCBB3.4010601@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <53A22B0926E74BFE905A6EA08C7C33D4@liberator> If the V100 is the model I think it is, you can get a "new" config card, the NVRAM settings are stored on the config card. Another way that I have heard works but can be dangerous is to bring up another V100, and swap cards and "save" the nvram settings in the working system to the passworded card. From bqt at softjar.se Tue Jan 13 10:41:09 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 17:41:09 +0100 Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: <200901131624.n0DGNMpx052135@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901131624.n0DGNMpx052135@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <496CC425.6050103@softjar.se> Dave McGuire wrote: > > On Jan 12, 2009, at 4:32 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: >> > One was given to a well-known collector of PDP-10 equipment who has >> > been a friend to the owner of XKL since the early days of cisco >> > Systems. It included the only copy of the Tops-10 port for the >> > Toad-1. > > And one is in the possession of my acquaintance Peter Lothberg, > unless that's who you're talking about in the last paragraph. (he > has done a lot of work for Cisco) I think it's pretty safe to assume that this was a reference to Peter. He's the only one I know who really have a collection of PDP-10 machines (including a tri-SMP KI-10 running TOPS-10). Unfortunately, much of his stuff is in storage nowadays. But it's not that far from me... :-) Johnny From jws at jwsss.com Tue Jan 13 14:29:08 2009 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 12:29:08 -0800 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <496CF994.5080104@jwsss.com> Richard wrote: Quoted Ian: I believe that there are two different issues here. Moderation of a forum of which the the membership of is open to anyone is different than the model where the writers and participants are chosen and there is an editor / writer relationship in place. It requires some business model or resource to support the latter, since there is usually going to be a dedicated group if there is to be any quality to it, in order for the enterprise to function. Selling magazines used to do that. I do not believe that there is the same resource to support these with online models. It remains to be seen if the old publishing companies with magazines and an online presence can survive, or if other ones will. Certainly the treatment of the DDJ readership was not handled very well. I would think that there would have been a cost effective model which would have allowed for all online publishing and getting rid of the cost of the physical magazine as a step rather than effectively erasing it the way they did. Having a group like this with minimum moderation and one which is heavily edited like the comp group mentioned is not going to produce the same results. Jim From jws at jwsss.com Tue Jan 13 14:55:31 2009 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 12:55:31 -0800 Subject: HVD SCSI Tape library Message-ID: <496CFFC3.7040608@jwsss.com> I have an elder setup I would like to plumb with cables, but do not have all I need. It is a tape library with 2 wide connectors, and an Adaptec 2944 in the host. I am thinking of a 3' or so wide cable (68 pin) with 3 connectors that are male, and each end with a female connector. I can terminate it at each end with the terminators I have, since the controller I have puts out termpwr. Any suggestions or sources or ideas. Anyone have such a beast to spare? thanks Jim From chemingson8525 at charter.net Tue Jan 13 21:27:54 2009 From: chemingson8525 at charter.net (Tom and Cindy) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 21:27:54 -0600 Subject: Latest find : IBM display writer Message-ID: <496D5BBA.9080107@charter.net> I need a copy of the diplaywriter operating system diskettes. I have a complete displaywriter system but no O.S. Thanks Latest find : IBM display writer *Curt Vendel* curt at atarimuseum.com /Fri Aug 2 14:14:10 CDT 2002/ * Previous message: Latest find : IBM display writer <000813.html> * Next message: Latest find : IBM display writer <000846.html> * *Messages sorted by:* [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I thought IBM Displaywriters were their line of daisywheel letter quality printers??? Curt liste at artware.qc.ca wrote: >/ So I walking up to a Dirty Garage (Vente de Garage Sale :) and spotted a />/ grey box that looked like it might be some sort of Mac or stranger from />/ the rear. Coming to the front, I see it is a dual 8 inch disquette drive! />/ The owner of the dirty garage came up to me and, spying my Linux t-shirt, />/ claimed it was Linux compatible. A good chuckle was had. />/ />/ However, the drive was part of a complete Displaywriter, which he was />/ giving away. So I backed my car up and loaded it all in. />/ />/ - 6580 Electronics Module, display, keyboard />/ - 6360 Diskette Unit />/ - 5215 Printer />/ />/ Doco : />/ - IBM Displaywriter System Customer Setup Guide />/ - IBM Displaywriter KWIC [sic] Reference guide />/ - 11 binders of Textpack tutorials (and documentation?) />/ />/ - Several sets of software. Haven't checked if it's multiple versions of />/ same programs or many different programs />/ - Many more 8 inch diskettes, including 5-10 unused still in plastic />/ - 2 loose boards, in a bag w/ small piece of paper where upon it is />/ written : "Defective, changed summer 93" in french />/ />/ I haven't fired it up yet to see if it works. However, I *must* />/ get rid of it as I have no space for it. So, is anyone interested? My />/ cost : FREE CHEAP. Of course, you pay for shipping from southern Quebec />/ (which won't be cheap for something this heavy). Better yet, come and />/ pick it up! I'd even be prepared to deliver it to somewhere close by (I'm />/ in Estrie) or even Montreal (I go there often). />/ />/ If there are no takers w/in a month, I'll probably end up as landfill />/ (except the diskettes). />/ />/ -Philip / From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 14 01:51:32 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 23:51:32 -0800 Subject: Latest find : IBM display writer In-Reply-To: <496D5BBA.9080107@charter.net> References: <496D5BBA.9080107@charter.net> Message-ID: <496D2904.14633.173D6CAC@cclist.sydex.com> *Curt Vendel* curt at atarimuseum.com wrote > I thought IBM Displaywriters were their line of daisywheel letter quality > printers??? Nope, 8086-based box. EBCDIC-based with ISTR optional hook-in to IBM mainframe systems. When I was cracking DW codes, I recall that about half the text- formatting smarts were in the printer, not in the x86 box. There was a small market for 3rd party software for the thing also. Cheers, Chuck From michaelgreen42 at comcast.net Wed Jan 14 02:24:47 2009 From: michaelgreen42 at comcast.net (Michael) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 00:24:47 -0800 Subject: NeXT Turbo Slab In-Reply-To: <200901121801.n0CI18Y1040011@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901121801.n0CI18Y1040011@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <071a01c97621$9074c5a0$b15e50e0$@net> Posted to eBay. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=120363318389&ssPageN ame=STRK:MESE:IT&ih=002 From dholland at woh.rr.com Wed Jan 14 05:50:48 2009 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 06:50:48 -0500 Subject: NCCC - Sunfire V100 / Solaris In-Reply-To: <4967819C.6080009@ubanproductions.com> References: <1231431249.1216.35.camel@spasmo> <49664EAD.BB843518@cs.ubc.ca> <4967819C.6080009@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <1231933848.23902.0.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> According to the documentation here: http://dlc.sun.com/pdf/819-1160-13/819-1160-13.pdf the default password after twiddling the jumper is.... changeme David On Fri, 2009-01-09 at 10:55 -0600, Tom Uban wrote: > Sorry about the lack of true classic computing content to this > question, but it does relate to a little bit older machine, a > Sunfire V100... > > I purchased one of these from eBay in hopes of possibly upgrading > my home firewall and discovered that the machine has a Lights-Out- > Management (LOM) CPU controlling the main UltraSPARC IIi processor. > The LOM runs a monitor program (LOMlite) which on this particular > machine is currently configured to require a login/password when > communicating with the machine over the console serial port. > > >From seemingly endless google searching, it sounds like I should be > able to break out of the LOMlite login/password cycle by resetting > the machine with the JP13 jumper. When I do this, LOM is reset, a > few seemingly ok diagnostic messages are emitted, and then the login > password are again requested. > > I was unable to determine if there is some sort of default login > password. > > The only path seems to be to possibly load the PATA IDE hard drive > with Solaris, and then use the Solaris tools to reset the LOM setup. > > Does anyone on this list have any experience with this machine? > > --tnx > --tom From uban at ubanproductions.com Wed Jan 14 09:37:37 2009 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 09:37:37 -0600 Subject: NCCC - Sunfire V100 / Solaris In-Reply-To: <18141.62.140.137.30.1231533528.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <18141.62.140.137.30.1231533528.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <496E06C1.5030109@ubanproductions.com> Ok, through a combination of experimentation and help from all of you, I've been able to get to the "lom>" prompt. Woot! But now I seem to face a new problem. I would like to install Solaris from the CD drive, but I need to access the "forth" boot mode "ok" prompt. When I try to use the "console" command, it reports "Console is not shared". I've tried setting bootmode to forth and issuing the "poweron" command, but I am still unable to gain access to the "ok" prompt console. Some googling reveals others have had this same problem and that there is supposed to be a doc in the sunsolve database which describes something about this, but I would need a service contract to access the document. How do I access the main processor forth mode console? Continuing thanks... --tom Ed Groenenberg wrote: > Tom, > > Best way is to install Solrais 8, 9 or 10. > Then install the SUNWlomu, SUNWlomr & SUNWlomm packages > followed by patch 110208-22. Then use the lom tool to > manipulate the lom config to your likings. > BTW, the patch has the latest firmware for the lom, so you > can also upgrade it if wanted. > > Regards, > > Ed > >> Sorry about the lack of true classic computing content to this >> question, but it does relate to a little bit older machine, a >> Sunfire V100... >> >> I purchased one of these from eBay in hopes of possibly upgrading >> my home firewall and discovered that the machine has a Lights-Out- >> Management (LOM) CPU controlling the main UltraSPARC IIi processor. >> The LOM runs a monitor program (LOMlite) which on this particular >> machine is currently configured to require a login/password when >> communicating with the machine over the console serial port. >> >> >From seemingly endless google searching, it sounds like I should be >> able to break out of the LOMlite login/password cycle by resetting >> the machine with the JP13 jumper. When I do this, LOM is reset, a >> few seemingly ok diagnostic messages are emitted, and then the login >> password are again requested. >> >> I was unable to determine if there is some sort of default login >> password. >> >> The only path seems to be to possibly load the PATA IDE hard drive >> with Solaris, and then use the Solaris tools to reset the LOM setup. >> >> Does anyone on this list have any experience with this machine? >> >> --tnx >> --tom >> > > > > From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Jan 14 10:09:40 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 08:09:40 -0800 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: <496CF994.5080104@jwsss.com> References: <496CF994.5080104@jwsss.com> Message-ID: >-----Original Message----- >From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jim s >Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 12:29 PM >To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs to cease? > > > >Richard wrote: > >Quoted Ian: > > >I believe that there are two different issues here. Moderation of a >forum of which the the membership of is open to anyone is different than >the model where the writers and participants are chosen and there is an >editor / writer relationship in place. > >It requires some business model or resource to support the latter, since >there is usually going to be a dedicated group if there is to be any >quality to it, in order for the enterprise to function. > >Selling magazines used to do that. I do not believe that there is the >same resource to support these with online models. It remains to be >seen if the old publishing companies with magazines and an online >presence can survive, or if other ones will. Certainly the treatment of >the DDJ readership was not handled very well. I would think that there >would have been a cost effective model which would have allowed for all >online publishing and getting rid of the cost of the physical magazine >as a step rather than effectively erasing it the way they did. > >Having a group like this with minimum moderation and one which is >heavily edited like the comp group mentioned is not going to produce the >same results. > In discussions I've had with librarians regarding printed vs. online journals, I've been told that the costs of producing the physical artifact are a small fraction of the overall cost. The cost of that staff predominates. However, advertising is an important revenue flow. Once upon a time, I started receiving a magazine to which I had not subscribed. When I asked why, the publisher replied that they were trying to boost their circulation numbers so they could increase their advertising rates. They made more money by giving away their product! (After a while, I realized why they had to give it away and asked them to stop sending it to me, free or not.) -- Ian From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Jan 14 10:21:18 2009 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 11:21:18 -0500 Subject: XKL TOAD (was: Re: How to tell differential scsi drives and cards apart) In-Reply-To: <200901140036.04570.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <2877B33C3A8B42B2917A94952AAA92F3@game> <45CDE429-2D35-4AE4-91DB-164B89DE9EDE@neurotica.com> <200901140036.04570.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <31369.1231950078@mini> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > >So, for curiosity's sake, how much money did a Toad-1 sell for when they >were being produced? Yes, exactly my question. And, as a followup, what's the chance of some of them coming up for sale? (I'd *love* to get my hands on one) -brad From dgahling at hotmail.com Wed Jan 14 10:50:37 2009 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 11:50:37 -0500 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: References: <496CF994.5080104@jwsss.com> Message-ID: It's a fascinating discussion, especially with "everything" going this way. Just exactly how well will the age-old advertising methods work online, especially with everyone and their brother using things like ad-block? I'm not sure where it will end up, I suspect it's an indication of a deeper issue. Off-topic but perhaps related is TV, look at what's happening with that, the traditional TV is almost dead. I'm not sure, but my feeling is that the new US plans to kill analog TV may completely kill TV. Why have TV when you can stream anything you want any time you want from the internet? Where is the place for it, and advertising when you can download shows for free (or "free") or close to it? Microsoft (and others) plans of a TV set-top box for internet access continually fail, and yet, in some ways, that's exactly where we're going, the computer becomes the entertainment center. a friend of mine has dumped TV (sat/cable, etc), they setup a NAS device and stream everything from online to their systems, and their TV's have rca/coax/digital connectors. with 2 1TB drives of media, and various systems with NFS mounts for other media. There's no advertising in there at all, no revenue stream, and no on-going cost for him to operate (except electricity). surprisingly perhaps, the reduction in electricity usage is exactly why he did it, he turned off 3 systems in place of the one NAS, which uses 1/3rd power of any of those systems alone. Someone once predicted the death of "tv" in the early 21st century, it feels like we're on the cusp at least. however, my question is, isn't TV a major source of advertising income, sales, and revenues? if everything goes this way, what happens to the market then? As i said, there's a deeper issue lurking below the surface. > From: IanK at vulcan.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 08:09:40 -0800 > Subject: RE: Dr. Dobbs to cease? > > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > >bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jim s > >Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 12:29 PM > >To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs to cease? > > > > > > > >Richard wrote: > > > >Quoted Ian: > > > > > >I believe that there are two different issues here. Moderation of a > >forum of which the the membership of is open to anyone is different than > >the model where the writers and participants are chosen and there is an > >editor / writer relationship in place. > > > >It requires some business model or resource to support the latter, since > >there is usually going to be a dedicated group if there is to be any > >quality to it, in order for the enterprise to function. > > > >Selling magazines used to do that. I do not believe that there is the > >same resource to support these with online models. It remains to be > >seen if the old publishing companies with magazines and an online > >presence can survive, or if other ones will. Certainly the treatment of > >the DDJ readership was not handled very well. I would think that there > >would have been a cost effective model which would have allowed for all > >online publishing and getting rid of the cost of the physical magazine > >as a step rather than effectively erasing it the way they did. > > > >Having a group like this with minimum moderation and one which is > >heavily edited like the comp group mentioned is not going to produce the > >same results. > > > In discussions I've had with librarians regarding printed vs. online journals, I've been told that the costs of producing the physical artifact are a small fraction of the overall cost. The cost of that staff predominates. However, advertising is an important revenue flow. Once upon a time, I started receiving a magazine to which I had not subscribed. When I asked why, the publisher replied that they were trying to boost their circulation numbers so they could increase their advertising rates. They made more money by giving away their product! (After a while, I realized why they had to give it away and asked them to stop sending it to me, free or not.) -- Ian > > _________________________________________________________________ Keep in touch and up to date with friends and family. Make the connection now. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/ From andy.piercy at gmail.com Wed Jan 14 11:28:44 2009 From: andy.piercy at gmail.com (Andy Piercy) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 17:28:44 +0000 Subject: NCCC - Sunfire V100 / Solaris In-Reply-To: <496E06C1.5030109@ubanproductions.com> References: <18141.62.140.137.30.1231533528.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <496E06C1.5030109@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: "console" and "#." to returne I think... Ta, A. 2009/1/14 Tom Uban : > Ok, through a combination of experimentation and help from all of > you, I've been able to get to the "lom>" prompt. Woot! But now I > seem to face a new problem. I would like to install Solaris from > the CD drive, but I need to access the "forth" boot mode "ok" prompt. > When I try to use the "console" command, it reports "Console is > not shared". I've tried setting bootmode to forth and issuing the > "poweron" command, but I am still unable to gain access to the "ok" > prompt console. Some googling reveals others have had this same > problem and that there is supposed to be a doc in the sunsolve > database which describes something about this, but I would need > a service contract to access the document. How do I access the > main processor forth mode console? > > Continuing thanks... > > --tom > > Ed Groenenberg wrote: >> Tom, >> >> Best way is to install Solrais 8, 9 or 10. >> Then install the SUNWlomu, SUNWlomr & SUNWlomm packages >> followed by patch 110208-22. Then use the lom tool to >> manipulate the lom config to your likings. >> BTW, the patch has the latest firmware for the lom, so you >> can also upgrade it if wanted. >> >> Regards, >> >> Ed >> >>> Sorry about the lack of true classic computing content to this >>> question, but it does relate to a little bit older machine, a >>> Sunfire V100... >>> >>> I purchased one of these from eBay in hopes of possibly upgrading >>> my home firewall and discovered that the machine has a Lights-Out- >>> Management (LOM) CPU controlling the main UltraSPARC IIi processor. >>> The LOM runs a monitor program (LOMlite) which on this particular >>> machine is currently configured to require a login/password when >>> communicating with the machine over the console serial port. >>> >>> >From seemingly endless google searching, it sounds like I should be >>> able to break out of the LOMlite login/password cycle by resetting >>> the machine with the JP13 jumper. When I do this, LOM is reset, a >>> few seemingly ok diagnostic messages are emitted, and then the login >>> password are again requested. >>> >>> I was unable to determine if there is some sort of default login >>> password. >>> >>> The only path seems to be to possibly load the PATA IDE hard drive >>> with Solaris, and then use the Solaris tools to reset the LOM setup. >>> >>> Does anyone on this list have any experience with this machine? >>> >>> --tnx >>> --tom >>> >> >> >> >> > > From uban at ubanproductions.com Wed Jan 14 11:39:02 2009 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 11:39:02 -0600 Subject: NCCC - Sunfire V100 / Solaris In-Reply-To: References: <18141.62.140.137.30.1231533528.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <496E06C1.5030109@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <496E2336.8010702@ubanproductions.com> The "console" command from "lom>" yeilds "Console not shared". The "#." command is supposed to be issued from Solaris, which is not yet installed (or running). I need to access the "forth" monitor which has the "ok" prompt, but again, the "console" command does not connect. --tom Andy Piercy wrote: > "console" > > and > > "#." to returne I think... > > Ta, > > A. > > > > 2009/1/14 Tom Uban : >> Ok, through a combination of experimentation and help from all of >> you, I've been able to get to the "lom>" prompt. Woot! But now I >> seem to face a new problem. I would like to install Solaris from >> the CD drive, but I need to access the "forth" boot mode "ok" prompt. >> When I try to use the "console" command, it reports "Console is >> not shared". I've tried setting bootmode to forth and issuing the >> "poweron" command, but I am still unable to gain access to the "ok" >> prompt console. Some googling reveals others have had this same >> problem and that there is supposed to be a doc in the sunsolve >> database which describes something about this, but I would need >> a service contract to access the document. How do I access the >> main processor forth mode console? >> >> Continuing thanks... >> >> --tom >> >> Ed Groenenberg wrote: >>> Tom, >>> >>> Best way is to install Solrais 8, 9 or 10. >>> Then install the SUNWlomu, SUNWlomr & SUNWlomm packages >>> followed by patch 110208-22. Then use the lom tool to >>> manipulate the lom config to your likings. >>> BTW, the patch has the latest firmware for the lom, so you >>> can also upgrade it if wanted. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Ed >>> >>>> Sorry about the lack of true classic computing content to this >>>> question, but it does relate to a little bit older machine, a >>>> Sunfire V100... >>>> >>>> I purchased one of these from eBay in hopes of possibly upgrading >>>> my home firewall and discovered that the machine has a Lights-Out- >>>> Management (LOM) CPU controlling the main UltraSPARC IIi processor. >>>> The LOM runs a monitor program (LOMlite) which on this particular >>>> machine is currently configured to require a login/password when >>>> communicating with the machine over the console serial port. >>>> >>>> >From seemingly endless google searching, it sounds like I should be >>>> able to break out of the LOMlite login/password cycle by resetting >>>> the machine with the JP13 jumper. When I do this, LOM is reset, a >>>> few seemingly ok diagnostic messages are emitted, and then the login >>>> password are again requested. >>>> >>>> I was unable to determine if there is some sort of default login >>>> password. >>>> >>>> The only path seems to be to possibly load the PATA IDE hard drive >>>> with Solaris, and then use the Solaris tools to reset the LOM setup. >>>> >>>> Does anyone on this list have any experience with this machine? >>>> >>>> --tnx >>>> --tom >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > From andy.piercy at gmail.com Wed Jan 14 11:59:40 2009 From: andy.piercy at gmail.com (Andy Piercy) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 17:59:40 +0000 Subject: NCCC - Sunfire V100 / Solaris In-Reply-To: <496E2336.8010702@ubanproductions.com> References: <18141.62.140.137.30.1231533528.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <496E06C1.5030109@ubanproductions.com> <496E2336.8010702@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: Tom, I use to work at Sun and managed the customer testing for this server, so deep in some old emails I found this... You need to have access to the engineering commands (not generally released to customers) ;-) This will allow you to reset the LOM password. Good luck! A. LOM error message "Console is not shared" ----------------------------------------- lom>console Console is not shared lom>set extra-cmds on Extra commands are reserved for SUN service personnel. Unauthorised use invalidates machine service warranty. lom> LOM event: +0h0m12s user login 0 lom>eepromreset lom>reset -l 2009/1/14 Tom Uban : > The "console" command from "lom>" yeilds "Console not shared". > > The "#." command is supposed to be issued from Solaris, which > is not yet installed (or running). > > I need to access the "forth" monitor which has the "ok" prompt, > but again, the "console" command does not connect. > > --tom > > Andy Piercy wrote: >> "console" >> >> and >> >> "#." to returne I think... >> >> Ta, >> >> A. >> >> >> >> 2009/1/14 Tom Uban : >>> Ok, through a combination of experimentation and help from all of >>> you, I've been able to get to the "lom>" prompt. Woot! But now I >>> seem to face a new problem. I would like to install Solaris from >>> the CD drive, but I need to access the "forth" boot mode "ok" prompt. >>> When I try to use the "console" command, it reports "Console is >>> not shared". I've tried setting bootmode to forth and issuing the >>> "poweron" command, but I am still unable to gain access to the "ok" >>> prompt console. Some googling reveals others have had this same >>> problem and that there is supposed to be a doc in the sunsolve >>> database which describes something about this, but I would need >>> a service contract to access the document. How do I access the >>> main processor forth mode console? >>> >>> Continuing thanks... >>> >>> --tom >>> >>> Ed Groenenberg wrote: >>>> Tom, >>>> >>>> Best way is to install Solrais 8, 9 or 10. >>>> Then install the SUNWlomu, SUNWlomr & SUNWlomm packages >>>> followed by patch 110208-22. Then use the lom tool to >>>> manipulate the lom config to your likings. >>>> BTW, the patch has the latest firmware for the lom, so you >>>> can also upgrade it if wanted. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> Ed >>>> >>>>> Sorry about the lack of true classic computing content to this >>>>> question, but it does relate to a little bit older machine, a >>>>> Sunfire V100... >>>>> >>>>> I purchased one of these from eBay in hopes of possibly upgrading >>>>> my home firewall and discovered that the machine has a Lights-Out- >>>>> Management (LOM) CPU controlling the main UltraSPARC IIi processor. >>>>> The LOM runs a monitor program (LOMlite) which on this particular >>>>> machine is currently configured to require a login/password when >>>>> communicating with the machine over the console serial port. >>>>> >>>>> >From seemingly endless google searching, it sounds like I should be >>>>> able to break out of the LOMlite login/password cycle by resetting >>>>> the machine with the JP13 jumper. When I do this, LOM is reset, a >>>>> few seemingly ok diagnostic messages are emitted, and then the login >>>>> password are again requested. >>>>> >>>>> I was unable to determine if there is some sort of default login >>>>> password. >>>>> >>>>> The only path seems to be to possibly load the PATA IDE hard drive >>>>> with Solaris, and then use the Solaris tools to reset the LOM setup. >>>>> >>>>> Does anyone on this list have any experience with this machine? >>>>> >>>>> --tnx >>>>> --tom >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >> >> > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 14 12:19:34 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 18:19:34 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Commodore Pet 2001 Troubles In-Reply-To: <88975c85e2225a1fa7bdd355904e2518@webmail.havnetmail.net> from "HavNet" at Jan 13, 9 11:31:09 pm Message-ID: > > Dear Fellow Enthusiasts ... > > Firstly, I must admit to being somewhat of a 'lurker' here reading > with great interest the postings and never failing to be amazed at the > shear amount of amassed knowledge on the subject. My thanks to you all. > > Is there anyone here that can help me with a Commodore Pet problem > that is really starting bug me !! IO am not really a PET person, although I have repaired the odd one in the past. But I might have some suggestions. > > It is a Pet 2001 32N with a Computhink Pet II Disk Controller Board > and a pair of Dual Computhink drives (Model : DKH 642-I). Question : Do these drives have their own PSU, or do they somehow draw DC power from the PET? I am wondering if the extra load of the drive motors turning on could e pullign a supply line low or something. > The machine starts up just fine and you can enter DISKMON by typing > SYS11*4096 > > However, upon entering commands like $LOD,1,"FOO" the screen turns to > a complete screen full of small squares - chequer board style. Upon the > command $DIR,1 the screen briefly displays a boarder around the screen > where the directory content would normally appear and as soon as the > drive activates the screen turns to chequer board. > > I have done the usual of re-seating the IC's, and I am hoping this > isn't failed ROM. It might, alas, be a failed ROM (does anyone have a dump of this?). PETs are, hopwever, notorious for failed IC sockets that cause all sorts of 'intereting' prolems. I'd replace the lot with good turned-pin ones. It might not help, but it'll take one worry away. > > Another clue maybe that for some reason, when the drives are > activated, BOTH drives activate together, which obviously they shouldnt. Do you hacw scheamtics? How are the drives selected? Could both turnign on together be a software problem (e.g. one it of an output port controls each drive, so if software writes a value to that prot that asserts oth bits then both drives turn on)? Or does this indicate a hardware problem with the drive select logic? -tony From rescue at hawkmountain.net Wed Jan 14 12:33:06 2009 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 13:33:06 -0500 Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: <31369.1231950078@mini> References: <2877B33C3A8B42B2917A94952AAA92F3@game> <45CDE429-2D35-4AE4-91DB-164B89DE9EDE@neurotica.com> <200901140036.04570.pat@computer-refuge.org> <31369.1231950078@mini> Message-ID: <496E2FE2.3010403@hawkmountain.net> Brad Parker wrote: > Patrick Finnegan wrote: > >> So, for curiosity's sake, how much money did a Toad-1 sell for when they >> were being produced? >> > > Yes, exactly my question. > > And, as a followup, what's the chance of some of them coming up for sale? > > (I'd *love* to get my hands on one) > Who wouldn't... I've wanted one since I found out about them... however, given the # that were made.... I probably have a better chance of finding a cheap Apple I at a yard sale... sigh... I think that my TOPS-10/TOPS-20 fix will likely have to come from emulation. I hold out hope for a PDP-8/I, E, F, or M someday... but I haven't found one in my realm of affordability.... if only I had gotten into old hardware sooner.... -- Curt > -brad > > From lehmann at ans-netz.de Wed Jan 14 12:41:30 2009 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 19:41:30 +0100 Subject: what harddisk is this? Message-ID: <20090114194130.467b5f9d.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Hi, I got pictures from someone regarding an 8" harddisk. I wonder if someone can tell me what model this is and/or what interface it is. I guess it is (sadly :() not SA1000 - maybe SMD? http://files.pofo.de/harddisk/ -- Oliver Lehmann http://www.pofo.de/ http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ From rescue at hawkmountain.net Wed Jan 14 13:04:50 2009 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 14:04:50 -0500 Subject: what harddisk is this? In-Reply-To: <20090114194130.467b5f9d.lehmann@ans-netz.de> References: <20090114194130.467b5f9d.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Message-ID: <496E3752.8090507@hawkmountain.net> Oliver Lehmann wrote: > Hi, > > I got pictures from someone regarding an 8" harddisk. I wonder if someone > can tell me what model this is and/or what interface it is. I guess it is > (sadly :() not SA1000 - maybe SMD? > > http://files.pofo.de/harddisk/ > > Looks like the world's biggest IDE hard drive (40 pin male IDC connector)..... ok... enough joking... here is what I found on it: I'm no DEChead but it is a Digital RA92 Would appear is is 1.216G. They appear to be fore use in Digital SA600 and SA650 cabinets interface is SDI (Standard Disk Interconnect) service manual is at: http://bitsavers.vt100.net/pdf/dec/disc/ra90/EK-ORA90-SV-003_RA90_RA92_Service_Jun90.pdf -- Curt From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 14 13:06:08 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 12:06:08 -0700 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 13 Jan 2009 12:29:08 -0800. <496CF994.5080104@jwsss.com> Message-ID: In article <496CF994.5080104 at jwsss.com>, jim s writes: > I believe that there are two different issues here. Moderation of a > forum of which the the membership of is open to anyone is different than > the model where the writers and participants are chosen and there is an > editor / writer relationship in place. > > It requires some business model or resource to support the latter, since > there is usually going to be a dedicated group if there is to be any > quality to it, in order for the enterprise to function. > > Selling magazines used to do that. I do not believe that there is the > same resource to support these with online models. Plenty of people are doing it; I don't know why you guys are unaware of the massive amount of activity in this area. If you've never seen it, you didn't look hard enough. What supports magazines is advertising. Its no different on the web. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 14 13:08:36 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 12:08:36 -0700 Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 14 Jan 2009 13:33:06 -0500. <496E2FE2.3010403@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: In article <496E2FE2.3010403 at hawkmountain.net>, "Curtis H. Wilbar Jr." writes: > I think that my TOPS-10/TOPS-20 fix will likely have to come from > emulation. Just get an account on Paul Allen's TOAD. I did. Its fun :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Jan 14 13:20:48 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 11:20:48 -0800 Subject: XKL TOAD (was: Re: How to tell differential scsi drives and cards apart) In-Reply-To: <200901140036.04570.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <2877B33C3A8B42B2917A94952AAA92F3@game> <45CDE429-2D35-4AE4-91DB-164B89DE9EDE@neurotica.com> <200901140036.04570.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: > From: Patrick Finnegan > Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 9:36 PM > So, for curiosity's sake, how much money did a Toad-1 sell for when they > were being produced? A base system cost $125,000 in 1995. That comprises 1 XKL-1 CPU (PDP-10 architecture, all KL-10 user code compatible, although the I/O instruction set differs radically) 1 XRH-1 4-port FASTWIDE differential SCSI controller (allowing attachment of up to 15 devices/port) 1 XNI-1 4-port Ethernet interface, providing AUI and 10baseT connections 1 XMG-1 32MW memory (KL-10 physical maximum is 4MW) 1 4GB disk drive (internal to system cabinet) 1 DDS-2 tape drive (HP OEM, with a Paralan single-ended to differential card) That took up 4 slots of the 7 slot backplane. At XKL, we installed a full 128MW in a system just to verify that our OS mods to support it worked correctly, and it passed all tests with flying colors. We would also sell you an M4 9914 9-track tape drive so that you could deal with legacy tapes (backups, installation media, etc.) if you wanted. Later, when we started using multiple 9GB drives in our own systems, we replaced the DAT drives with Quantum DLT8000 drives. If we had continued to sell systems that would have been the configuration you got for the base price. A note on the memory: TOPS-20, as it turns out, is memory-starved on a KL-10 with the maximum memory. When MCI/Tymnet replaced two KL-10 systems running an early fork of Tops-10 with a Toad-1 running TOPS-20, they went from 100 users per system with 1-2 *minute* response times to 200 users on a single system with *subsecond* response times. Rich Alderson Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell From rescue at hawkmountain.net Wed Jan 14 13:23:46 2009 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 14:23:46 -0500 Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <496E3BC2.1020005@hawkmountain.net> Richard wrote: > In article <496E2FE2.3010403 at hawkmountain.net>, > "Curtis H. Wilbar Jr." writes: > > >> I think that my TOPS-10/TOPS-20 fix will likely have to come from >> emulation. >> > > Just get an account on Paul Allen's TOAD. I did. Its fun :-) > I'm sure.... but not like having your own ! :-) With such a low number of them out there.... I'd imagine eventually they will be tougher to keep running.... what would the spares availability be :-) -- Curt From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jan 14 13:27:54 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 14:27:54 -0500 Subject: what harddisk is this? In-Reply-To: <496E3752.8090507@hawkmountain.net> References: <20090114194130.467b5f9d.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <496E3752.8090507@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: On Jan 14, 2009, at 2:04 PM, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: >> I got pictures from someone regarding an 8" harddisk. I wonder if >> someone >> can tell me what model this is and/or what interface it is. I >> guess it is >> (sadly :() not SA1000 - maybe SMD? >> >> http://files.pofo.de/harddisk/ >> > Looks like the world's biggest IDE hard drive (40 pin male IDC > connector)..... > > ok... enough joking... here is what I found on it: > > I'm no DEChead but it is a Digital RA92 It's just the HDA, not the whole drive. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From slawmaster at gmail.com Wed Jan 14 13:32:44 2009 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 14:32:44 -0500 Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: <496E3BC2.1020005@hawkmountain.net> References: <496E3BC2.1020005@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <7d3530220901141132u21092c4dvb0073a5ba5af4200@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 2:23 PM, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > Richard wrote: >> >> In article <496E2FE2.3010403 at hawkmountain.net>, >> "Curtis H. Wilbar Jr." writes: >> >> >>> >>> I think that my TOPS-10/TOPS-20 fix will likely have to come from >>> emulation. >>> >> >> Just get an account on Paul Allen's TOAD. I did. Its fun :-) >> > > I'm sure.... but not like having your own ! :-) > > With such a low number of them out there.... I'd imagine > eventually they will be tougher to keep running.... what > would the spares availability be :-) > > -- Curt > Sorta sounds like it would be easier to get a real PDP-10 than to find a TOAD -- "I've tried programming Ruby on Rails, following TechCrunch in my RSS reader, and drinking absinthe. It doesn't work. I'm going back to C, Hunter S. Thompson, and cheap whiskey." -- Ted Dziuba From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jan 14 13:37:57 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 12:37:57 -0700 Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 14 Jan 2009 14:23:46 -0500. <496E3BC2.1020005@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: In article <496E3BC2.1020005 at hawkmountain.net>, "Curtis H. Wilbar Jr." writes: > > Just get an account on Paul Allen's TOAD. I did. Its fun :-) > > > I'm sure.... but not like having your own ! :-) Yeah, its better! You don't have to pay the power bills or setup the HVAC, the raised floor, etc. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From pontus at update.uu.se Wed Jan 14 14:05:28 2009 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 21:05:28 +0100 Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <496E4588.8090003@update.uu.se> > Yeah, its better! You don't have to pay the power bills or setup the > HVAC, the raised floor, etc. > The Toad is small and cute, even cats like it, not much need for raised floor, don't know about power though. http://www.inwap.com/pdp10/tymshare/hardware/index.cgi?xkl-murdock2.jpg /P From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Jan 14 14:06:43 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 15:06:43 -0500 Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200901141506.43879.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 14 January 2009, Richard wrote: > In article <496E3BC2.1020005 at hawkmountain.net>, > > "Curtis H. Wilbar Jr." writes: > > > Just get an account on Paul Allen's TOAD. I did. Its fun :-) > > > > I'm sure.... but not like having your own ! :-) > > Yeah, its better! You don't have to pay the power bills or setup the > HVAC, the raised floor, etc. Then, what's the point? Half the fun of running big machines (for me) is the hundreds of hours and thousands of dollars you put into improvements in your living space to turn it into a datacenter, which at best only slightly lowers the resale value of your house. :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pontus at update.uu.se Wed Jan 14 14:09:45 2009 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 21:09:45 +0100 Subject: what harddisk is this? In-Reply-To: References: <20090114194130.467b5f9d.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <496E3752.8090507@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <496E4689.5040705@update.uu.se> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jan 14, 2009, at 2:04 PM, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: >>> I got pictures from someone regarding an 8" harddisk. I wonder if >>> someone >>> can tell me what model this is and/or what interface it is. I guess >>> it is >>> (sadly :() not SA1000 - maybe SMD? >>> >>> http://files.pofo.de/harddisk/ >>> >> Looks like the world's biggest IDE hard drive (40 pin male IDC >> connector)..... >> >> ok... enough joking... here is what I found on it: >> >> I'm no DEChead but it is a Digital RA92 > > It's just the HDA, not the whole drive. > > -Dave > yupp, we have a bunch of those at the club. You need the controller board (?), housing, power and fan to get it going. But they are quite cool. We removed a magnet from one of them and placed it on the I-beam in the ceiling. To say the least, it was hard to remove :) From tosteve at yahoo.com Wed Jan 14 14:12:30 2009 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 12:12:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: "Free" Zenith Z-158 and Supersport in Buffalo, NY Message-ID: <958403.91437.qm@web110613.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> THESE ARE NOT MY SYSTEMS, RESPOND TO "TOM" BELOW IF INTERESTED! =============================================================== "Tom" writes: I have 2 systems in my possession that I'd be willing to donate if you're interested. The first is a Zenith Data Systems Z-158 Desktop. It is in great working condition. The previous owner was very meticulous, keeping everything. I have the original brochure and sales receipt along with several program disks including the demo disk that would have been used in the store to show off the computer's capabilities. The second is a Zenith Data Systems Supersport. I used this machine to learn Q-Basic. Has seen a lot of use, but still in good shape. Just recently stopped booting telling me, "DISK DRIVE RESET FAILED" I have 2 identical systems that I have been using as donor machines to keep my laptop in working order. If interested I can donate them as well. Tom Jefferys Buffalo, NY comptech25 at yahoo.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jan 14 14:14:52 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 15:14:52 -0500 Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: <496E4588.8090003@update.uu.se> References: <496E4588.8090003@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 3:05 PM, Pontus wrote: > >> Yeah, its better! You don't have to pay the power bills or setup the >> HVAC, the raised floor, etc. >> > > The Toad is small and cute, even cats like it, not much need for raised > floor, don't know about power though. > > http://www.inwap.com/pdp10/tymshare/hardware/index.cgi?xkl-murdock2.jpg That is small and cute. I worked next to some Systems Concepts machines at the Hilliard, OH, data center in 2003 - my stuff was a wall of Alpha CPUs and disk, several rows away from the 36-bit hardware, but I still had to walk by it every day. I _think_ it was a small wall of SC30s, but I could be wrong. I was told that because of how CompuServe was carved up between MCI/Worldcom and AOL, MCI/Worldcom was still running billing jobs on the 36-bit machines and that more than one attempt to re-write that stuff had ended with a lack of success. No idea if they are _still_ running it or not, but a replacement was not in sight by late 2003. The Toad does look great, though. For now though, like most of the list, I'll be getting my 36-bit fix via klh10 and the graces of Paul Allen. I occasionally check in on the 10-on-an-FPGA projects from time to time, but I can't allocate a lot of money to that aspect of the hobby, so I sit on the sidelines and see how they are coming along. For what I do (Zork regression testing for ZDungeon), I don't really need to own real 36-bit hardware, just an account is enough, so that's what I'm doing. I still wouldn't mind owning real 36-bit hardware, but unless it was some sort of rescue, I don't see it happening in my future. -ethan From sethm at loomcom.com Wed Jan 14 14:14:55 2009 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 12:14:55 -0800 Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: <496E2FE2.3010403@hawkmountain.net> References: <2877B33C3A8B42B2917A94952AAA92F3@game> <45CDE429-2D35-4AE4-91DB-164B89DE9EDE@neurotica.com> <200901140036.04570.pat@computer-refuge.org> <31369.1231950078@mini> <496E2FE2.3010403@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 10:33 AM, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > > I think that my TOPS-10/TOPS-20 fix will likely have to come from > emulation. I thoroughly recommend KLH10 and the Panda Display Panel: http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Hardware/Panda.htm It's easy to assemble, and will provide hours of enjoyment for you and your family! Of course, it only emulates a DECsystem 20 running TOPS-20, so your TOPS-10 fix will have to come elsewhere. -Seth From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jan 14 14:19:04 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 15:19:04 -0500 Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: <200901141506.43879.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200901141506.43879.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 3:06 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Wednesday 14 January 2009, Richard wrote: >> In article <496E3BC2.1020005 at hawkmountain.net>, >> Yeah, its better! You don't have to pay the power bills or setup the >> HVAC, the raised floor, etc. > > Then, what's the point? > > Half the fun of running big machines (for me) is the hundreds of hours > and thousands of dollars you put into improvements in your living space > to turn it into a datacenter, which at best only slightly lowers the > resale value of your house. :) I already have the raised floor (about 400 sq ft). I just need a modern building out on my land to install the flooring in (right now, the 11/70s and 11/750s and most of the other H960s are in a 1950s quonset hut - it's cute, but the curved walls are inefficient for trying to make a datacenter in the corner of, so the flooring is stacked, waiting for a rectilinear building to go up next door). That and I don't have adequate electric service to the place without upgrading the pole. I've got 100A for the house and quonset hut *combined*. -ethan From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jan 14 14:16:00 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 12:16:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: <496E2FE2.3010403@hawkmountain.net> References: <2877B33C3A8B42B2917A94952AAA92F3@game> <45CDE429-2D35-4AE4-91DB-164B89DE9EDE@neurotica.com> <200901140036.04570.pat@computer-refuge.org> <31369.1231950078@mini> <496E2FE2.3010403@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Jan 2009, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > Brad Parker wrote: >> Yes, exactly my question. >> >> And, as a followup, what's the chance of some of them coming up for sale? >> >> (I'd *love* to get my hands on one) >> > > Who wouldn't... I've wanted one since I found out about them... > however, given the # that were made.... I probably have a better > chance of finding a cheap Apple I at a yard sale... sigh... > > I think that my TOPS-10/TOPS-20 fix will likely have to come from > emulation. There is another option besides "emulation", and that is for some dedicated hobbyist(s) to build the equivalent of an XKL-1. Both Neil Franklin and Doug Conroy have done work in this area. Neil Franklin stopped work on his project in 2003, and I don't know the status of Doug Conroy's project. http://neil.franklin.ch/Projects/PDP-10/ Realistically I recommend either getting an acount on one of the systems that are on the Internet, or else buy an Atom-based motherboard and build your own. Anything faster than about a 200Mhz PC will be fast enough, but I like the idea of modern and low-power for something like this. Put your favorite Linux install on there, and install KLH10. You'll want a motherboard that allows you to dedicate an ethernet card to KLH10. I've threatened to take a Mini-ITX board and place it inside of a VT100 for just this purpose. With the current advances in PC parts it would be very easy. I've also had a DECserver talking to TOPS-10 (at least I think it was -10) under KLH10. Zane From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Jan 14 14:20:13 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 15:20:13 -0500 Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: <31369.1231950078@mini> References: <2877B33C3A8B42B2917A94952AAA92F3@game> <45CDE429-2D35-4AE4-91DB-164B89DE9EDE@neurotica.com> <200901140036.04570.pat@computer-refuge.org> <31369.1231950078@mini> Message-ID: <496E48FD.3030701@gmail.com> Brad Parker wrote: >> So, for curiosity's sake, how much money did a Toad-1 sell for when they >> were being produced? > > Yes, exactly my question. > > And, as a followup, what's the chance of some of them coming up for sale? > > (I'd *love* to get my hands on one) You'd be bidding up against some people with *very* deep pockets. Peace... Sridhar From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Jan 14 14:21:48 2009 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 12:21:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: <200901141506.43879.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200901141506.43879.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Jan 2009, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Wednesday 14 January 2009, Richard wrote: >> In article <496E3BC2.1020005 at hawkmountain.net>, >> >> "Curtis H. Wilbar Jr." writes: >>>> Just get an account on Paul Allen's TOAD. I did. Its fun :-) >>> >>> I'm sure.... but not like having your own ! :-) >> >> Yeah, its better! You don't have to pay the power bills or setup the >> HVAC, the raised floor, etc. > > Then, what's the point? > > Half the fun of running big machines (for me) is the hundreds of hours > and thousands of dollars you put into improvements in your living space > to turn it into a datacenter, which at best only slightly lowers the > resale value of your house. :) > Well that just means that you have to sell to someone on the list. They'll understand the "value add" of a temperature controlled dinosaur cage where the garage used to be. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jan 14 14:26:32 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 15:26:32 -0500 Subject: what harddisk is this? In-Reply-To: <496E4689.5040705@update.uu.se> References: <20090114194130.467b5f9d.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <496E3752.8090507@hawkmountain.net> <496E4689.5040705@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 3:09 PM, Pontus wrote: > Dave McGuire wrote: >> On Jan 14, 2009, at 2:04 PM, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: >>>> I got pictures from someone regarding an 8" harddisk. I wonder if >>>> someone >>>> can tell me what model this is and/or what interface it is. I guess >>>> it is >>>> (sadly :() not SA1000 - maybe SMD? >>>> >>>> http://files.pofo.de/harddisk/ >> >>> I'm no DEChead but it is a Digital RA92 >> It's just the HDA, not the whole drive. > > yupp, we have a bunch of those at the club. You need the controller > board (?), housing, power and fan to get it going. > > But they are quite cool. We removed a magnet from one of them and placed > it on the I-beam in the ceiling. To say the least, it was hard to remove :) I never fiddled much with stuff that new. When I was using SDI drives every day, it was in the RA81 era. I have a couple of RA70s I want to fit into a BA213, but except for staring at a wall of them and not having to do much, I didn't interact with the RA92s at the one place where we had them. My memory is that they were pretty sturdy, but all rotating media fails eventually. Since I have more than a couple UDA50s and KDA50s and even a KDB50 (for my 8200), I'm kinda tied to SDI disks one way or another. I can find alternatives for Unibus and Qbus, but I don't know that I'd ever find an alternative for the VAXBI bus (there _were_ SCSI controllers for VAXBI, but they were $10K once upon a time, and I can't imagine they ever made a lot of them). -ethan From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jan 14 14:24:05 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 12:24:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: References: <2877B33C3A8B42B2917A94952AAA92F3@game> <45CDE429-2D35-4AE4-91DB-164B89DE9EDE@neurotica.com> <200901140036.04570.pat@computer-refuge.org> <31369.1231950078@mini> <496E2FE2.3010403@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Jan 2009, Seth Morabito wrote: > On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 10:33 AM, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. > wrote: > >> >> I think that my TOPS-10/TOPS-20 fix will likely have to come from >> emulation. > > I thoroughly recommend KLH10 and the Panda Display Panel: > > http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Hardware/Panda.htm > > It's easy to assemble, and will provide hours of enjoyment for you and > your family! Are they available again? > Of course, it only emulates a DECsystem 20 running TOPS-20, so your > TOPS-10 fix will have to come elsewhere. I don't know about the Panda Display Panel, but KLH10 emulates either a KS10 or a KL10B, and will run ITS, TOPS-10, and TOPS-20. Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jan 14 14:28:49 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 12:28:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: References: <200901141506.43879.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Jan 2009, Gene Buckle wrote: > Well that just means that you have to sell to someone on the list. They'll > understand the "value add" of a temperature controlled dinosaur cage where > the garage used to be. :) At the moment I'm interested in advice as to how to go about doing some sort of temperature control. Of course my wife says that if I put A/C in the garage, I first have to do the house. I gather one of my coworkers has a small server shed in the back yard with A/C, but no A/C in the house. :-) We are in the process of trying to buy a house, and one of our key requirements is that the garage can house the contents of my storage unit, and ideally have room for a row of computer racks, including the two racks housing the PDP-11/44 I have in my parents garage. :-) Zane From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Jan 14 15:06:51 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 16:06:51 -0500 Subject: TOAD-1 vs. Super Foonly F-1 Message-ID: <496E53EB.5010002@gmail.com> Can anyone compare their relative performance? Peace... Sridhar From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jan 14 15:13:54 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 16:13:54 -0500 Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: References: <2877B33C3A8B42B2917A94952AAA92F3@game> <45CDE429-2D35-4AE4-91DB-164B89DE9EDE@neurotica.com> <200901140036.04570.pat@computer-refuge.org> <31369.1231950078@mini> <496E2FE2.3010403@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 3:24 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > On Wed, 14 Jan 2009, Seth Morabito wrote: >> On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 10:33 AM, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. >> wrote: >> >>> >>> I think that my TOPS-10/TOPS-20 fix will likely have to come from >>> emulation. >> >> I thoroughly recommend KLH10 and the Panda Display Panel: >> >> http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/Hardware/Panda.htm >> >> It's easy to assemble, and will provide hours of enjoyment for you and >> your family! Agreed. I have one. I love it. I should get some pictures of mine. I spent a bunch of time working on the blank plate, the spacers, etc., and it all fits together wonderfully (as with most STG products, I just bought bare boards). > Are they available again? They were last year. Not sure about today. I burn my own GALs and have a pile of generic components, so I don't usually shop for "full kits". >> Of course, it only emulates a DECsystem 20 running TOPS-20, so your >> TOPS-10 fix will have to come elsewhere. > > I don't know about the Panda Display Panel, but KLH10 emulates either a KS10 > or a KL10B, and will run ITS, TOPS-10, and TOPS-20. The display panel works with KLH10, but there is a necessary 36-bit software component to fiddle all the lights. I know it exists for TOPS-20. I have no knowledge of it for other 36-bit OSes. -ethan From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Jan 14 15:38:25 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 13:38:25 -0800 Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: <7d3530220901141132u21092c4dvb0073a5ba5af4200@mail.gmail.com> References: <496E3BC2.1020005@hawkmountain.net> <7d3530220901141132u21092c4dvb0073a5ba5af4200@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > From: John Floren > Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 11:33 AM > On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 2:23 PM, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. > wrote: >> Richard wrote: >>> In article <496E2FE2.3010403 at hawkmountain.net>, >>> "Curtis H. Wilbar Jr." writes: >>>> I think that my TOPS-10/TOPS-20 fix will likely have to come from >>>> emulation. >>> Just get an account on Paul Allen's TOAD. I did. Its fun :-) >> I'm sure.... but not like having your own ! :-) >> With such a low number of them out there.... I'd imagine >> eventually they will be tougher to keep running.... what >> would the spares availability be :-) This is actually of some concern to us. > Sorta sounds like it would be easier to get a real PDP-10 than to find > a TOAD Unless by "real PDP-10" you mean specifically a KA-10 or KI-10 processor and associated peripherals, I'm going to have to object on behalf of the XKL and Systems Concepts products, along with the Foonly family and the MAXC system built at PARC. I am firmly on the microcode side of the "real hardware" vs. microcode argument when it comes to defining system architectures. Otherwise, the KL-10 processor is not a PDP-10. I am also on the architecture trumps manufacturer side of *that* argument. The Amdahl, Hitachi, and Fujitsu articles are just as much 360/370 systems as the IBM offerings; they'd be just as desirable for the work they can do (if not more so). Nameplate coolness factor does not equate to architecture, IMAO. Anyway, as far as I have been able to determine, all the KA-10 systems left in the world are located near Johnny Eriksson, as are all the KI-10 systems. > From: Pontus > Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 12:05 PM >> Yeah, its better! You don't have to pay the power bills or setup the >> HVAC, the raised floor, etc. > The Toad is small and cute, even cats like it, not much need for raised > floor, don't know about power though. Oh. I didn't mention that, did I? The Toad-1 system dissipates about 1500W in operation and plugs into a wall socket. The KL-10, with the original power harness, requires 240V x 60A 3-phase, with a power-on inrush of ~12.4KVA, and a steady-state operational requirement of ~6-9KVA. Rich Alderson Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Jan 14 15:46:52 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 13:46:52 -0800 Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: References: <496E4588.8090003@update.uu.se> Message-ID: > From: Ethan Dicks > Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 12:15 PM > On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 3:05 PM, Pontus > wrote: >> The Toad is small and cute, even cats like it, not much need for raised >> floor, don't know about power though. > That is small and cute. I worked next to some Systems Concepts > machines at the Hilliard, OH, data center in 2003 - my stuff was a > wall of Alpha CPUs and disk, several rows away from the 36-bit > hardware, but I still had to walk by it every day. I _think_ it was a > small wall of SC30s, but I could be wrong. I was told that because of > how CompuServe was carved up between MCI/Worldcom and AOL, > MCI/Worldcom was still running billing jobs on the 36-bit machines and > that more than one attempt to re-write that stuff had ended with a > lack of success. No idea if they are _still_ running it or not, but a > replacement was not in sight by late 2003. Those were SC40s. Mike and Stewart licensed CompuServe to build their own for a discounted fee (IIRC 40% of list). Around 2001 we got a call from someone in one of those offices, but by then we were completely out of the business of selling Toad-1 systems. Too bad, because the CEO of CIS blew off a meeting (with people waiting in his outer office) the day of the NT announcement. > The Toad does look great, though. For now though, like most of the > list, I'll be getting my 36-bit fix via klh10 and the graces of Paul > Allen. > I occasionally check in on the 10-on-an-FPGA projects from time to > time, but I can't allocate a lot of money to that aspect of the hobby, > so I sit on the sidelines and see how they are coming along. > For what I do (Zork regression testing for ZDungeon), I don't really > need to own real 36-bit hardware, just an account is enough, so that's > what I'm doing. I still wouldn't mind owning real 36-bit hardware, > but unless it was some sort of rescue, I don't see it happening in my > future. Happy to help! Rich Alderson Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Wed Jan 14 16:06:47 2009 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 22:06:47 GMT Subject: thinking of selling my PDP-11/23+ Message-ID: <20090114170647.o03wbwh175wck4oo@webmail2.centurytel.net> Now that I have a working PDP-11/23+ system, I find (as I should have known from many similar projects) that the "fun" was really in accumulating the pieces and getting it working. I don't really have anything I want to DO with it (although I suppose that is the whole point of classic computing :) but I have run ADVENT. anyway I was wondering if someone else would be interested. In brief, it's an 11/23+ KDF-11BA CPU (the chassis front panel is embossed "11/03" though) with max 4 Mb RAM, two RL02's, VT220 and a 16-line serial card. Has a pack with RT-11 v5.mumble up and running. I have what appears to be a TSX-Plus pack but don't know how to generate a working system. "Corporate cabinet" in decent shape. Paint on the RL02 fronts has seen better days. Can send pics this weekend. It's in West Plains, MO (65775), about 200 mi southwest of St. Louis, 100 miles southeast of Springfield, MO. If I could find someone to help me get it down the stairs I could deliver it to St. Louis (or I could disassemble it if necessary and carry the pieces down) since I work there every week. Let me know if there's any interest - contact me offlist and make me a reasonable offer. I hate to see it just gathering dust and my PDP-8/A system (two RL02's and ASR33 Teletype, running OS/8) is enough vintage computing hardware for now :) -Charles From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jan 14 16:12:05 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 17:12:05 -0500 Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: References: <496E4588.8090003@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 4:46 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: >> From: Ethan Dicks >> That is small and cute. I worked next to some Systems Concepts >> ... in 2003... I _think_ it was a >> small wall of SC30s, but I could be wrong. I was told that because of >> how CompuServe was carved up between MCI/Worldcom and AOL, >> MCI/Worldcom was still running billing jobs on the 36-bit machines... > > Those were SC40s. Mike and Stewart licensed CompuServe to build their > own for a discounted fee (IIRC 40% of list). Ah, yes. I kinda missed that era. I was a contractor at CompuServe in 1994/1995, then worked other places until I was a CompuServe/AOL employee in 2001, quite a time after the heyday of the SC machines _and_ the "silver bullet" 32-bit servers. As of a couple of years ago, the SC40s at the old CIS headquarters were still up and running, but they've laid off so many from that facility that I don't get news like I used to. > Around 2001 we got a call from someone in one of those offices, but by > then we were completely out of the business of selling Toad-1 systems. > Too bad, because the CEO of CIS blew off a meeting (with people waiting > in his outer office) the day of the NT announcement. That was right about the time I was coming back, I think. >> For what I do (Zork regression testing for ZDungeon), I don't really >> need to own real 36-bit hardware, just an account is enough, so that's >> what I'm doing. > > Happy to help! Yes. Thanks for the assistance over the years! -ethan From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Wed Jan 14 16:16:12 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 17:16:12 -0500 Subject: XKL TOAD (was: Re: How to tell differential scsi drives and cards apart) References: <2877B33C3A8B42B2917A94952AAA92F3@game> <45CDE429-2D35-4AE4-91DB-164B89DE9EDE@neurotica.com> <200901140036.04570.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <18798.25644.861779.517348@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Rich" == Rich Alderson writes: Rich> A note on the memory: TOPS-20, as it turns out, is Rich> memory-starved on a KL-10 with the maximum memory. When Rich> MCI/Tymnet replaced two KL-10 systems running an early fork of Rich> Tops-10 with a Toad-1 running TOPS-20, they went from 100 users Rich> per system with 1-2 *minute* response times to 200 users on a Rich> single system with *subsecond* response times. Interesting, considering that PLATO ran on roughly the same memory but a slower processor, and supported 600 users with subsecond response time in 1975. I suppose it goes to show you that software can make any machine slow. But then again we all know that by now... :-) paul From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Jan 14 16:56:55 2009 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 16:56:55 -0600 Subject: Content rights (was: Re: Dr. Dobbs to cease?) In-Reply-To: References: <496CF994.5080104@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <496E6DB7.5040405@oldskool.org> Dan Gahlinger wrote: > Why have TV when you can stream anything you want any time you want from the internet? > Where is the place for it, and advertising when you can download shows for free (or "free") or close to it? (I know this is off-topic, but as a video content producer who has researched online distribution I'm in a unique position to comment on this, so hopefully it will be tolerated...) Because you can't currently stream *everything* for free. Less than 3% of all major networks' shows are available online from the networks (ie. legally). TV won't die any time soon, but is changing into a quasi-music-industry model. Meaning, pop music artists today hardly make any money off of their CD/online store sales; instead, they make their living from live shows. From the standpoint of the artist, all of the radio play and CD sales are "advertising" to go see the live shows. (This is not the standpoint of the publishers, which I will tastefully not comment on in this message.) So how is TV like that? In the case of television, shows like Heroes, 30 Rock, and CSI are available online from 1-7 days after the broadcast. When you go to watch them online, you are treated to advertising -- but unlike broadcast television, there is no way to skip the advertising as the DRM'd player won't let you. (No doubt hackers will find a way around this, but for now, that's the case.) A single advertisement that you cannot skip is worth a dozen that you *expect* the user to skip. In these shows' cases, the broadcast brings in advertising dollars, but *more* serve to drive the user online, where distribution can be audited (think Neilsen ratings with a much larger sample size), promotion for other company offerings (like DVD sets) can be made without cutting into broadcast time, etc. There is a very large market for DVD sets of shows, and as long as the set contains extra materials (commentary is usually a requirement), the set can sell to a customer even if they have watched all of the shows online. There is a tipping point, but we won't get there until high-speed broadband becomes a utility in every home (ie. 6mbps or greater, enough to support picture quality identical or better to broadcast TV). BTW, do an inventory of all of the shows being offered online and you will find that, almost universally, they are shows that are followed by the technologically savvy. Putting nerd-centric shows like 30 Rock and Heroes online makes sense because that is more of where those shows' viewers are anyway ("I spend more time on the computer than on the couch"). Conversely, putting shows online like talk shows or reruns don't make sense since the viewership of those shows is primarily non-technical or lower-income and wouldn't have broadband. (One of the few exceptions to this are soap operas, because each show of a soap broadcast only once and is not repeated/re-run. Putting them online allows people who missed them a second chance to catch up on the story, which gives the broadcasting company a second chance to earn advertising revenue.) > a friend of mine has dumped TV (sat/cable, etc), they setup a NAS device and stream everything from online to their systems, > and their TV's have rca/coax/digital connectors. with 2 1TB drives of media, and various systems with NFS mounts for other media. > > There's no advertising in there at all, no revenue stream, and no on-going cost for him to operate (except electricity). > surprisingly perhaps, the reduction in electricity usage is exactly why he did it, he turned off 3 systems in place of the one NAS, which uses 1/3rd > power of any of those systems alone. No doubt, then, that your friend is doing this quite illegally. I would like to know what internet/cable/whatever service he is using that not only *provides* but *allows* every show on every network over TCP/IP. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jan 14 17:08:56 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 16:08:56 -0700 Subject: Content rights In-Reply-To: <496E6DB7.5040405@oldskool.org> References: <496CF994.5080104@jwsss.com> <496E6DB7.5040405@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <496E7088.2040202@jetnet.ab.ca> Jim Leonard wrote: > No doubt, then, that your friend is doing this quite illegally. I would > like to know what internet/cable/whatever service he is using that not > only *provides* but *allows* every show on every network over TCP/IP. Other Anime and and few hockey games, I have no desire for more video productions. I like music not music videos. When the word 'plot' & 'climax' & 'conflict' come back to US TV, I might watch something. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jan 14 17:18:55 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 15:18:55 -0800 Subject: TOAD-1 vs. Super Foonly F-1 Message-ID: <496E72DF.5050207@bitsavers.org> Foonly performance can be found here: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/foonly/Foonly_Product_Overview.pdf Rich should be able to provide the numbers relative to a KL for comparision. The big deal with the TOAD was expansion of the memory addressing space. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jan 14 17:25:03 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 15:25:03 -0800 Subject: XKL TOAD Message-ID: <496E744F.7040706@bitsavers.org> > Both Neil Franklin and > Doug Conroy have done work in this area. Dave Conroy. He's not had time to work on it for a while now. From brain at jbrain.com Wed Jan 14 19:07:09 2009 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 19:07:09 -0600 Subject: Content rights In-Reply-To: <496E6DB7.5040405@oldskool.org> References: <496CF994.5080104@jwsss.com> <496E6DB7.5040405@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <496E8C3D.3000604@jbrain.com> Jim Leonard wrote: > There is a very large market for DVD sets of shows, and as long as the > set contains extra materials (commentary is usually a requirement), > the set can sell to a customer even if they have watched all of the > shows online. To use your music analogy, I buy DVDs for the same reason I buy CDs. I'm leery of online music and online shows due to the restictions imposed on listening/viewing. > > > No doubt, then, that your friend is doing this quite illegally. I > would like to know what internet/cable/whatever service he is using > that not only *provides* but *allows* every show on every network over > TCP/IP. I'm not sure I follow this. If this guy uses MythTV to save all the shows to NAS for time-shifted viewing, how is that "illegal"? Jim From dgahling at hotmail.com Wed Jan 14 19:30:31 2009 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 20:30:31 -0500 Subject: Content rights In-Reply-To: <496E8C3D.3000604@jbrain.com> References: <496CF994.5080104@jwsss.com> <496E6DB7.5040405@oldskool.org> <496E8C3D.3000604@jbrain.com> Message-ID: and if he just streams stuff you can get for free (daily show, comedy network), there are lots of sites, and shows you can get, and various other things. He even gets a lot of youtube stuff, which was free last I checked. it depends on your interests, you can get it. You can also put your own DVD library on your system for viewing, you bought the DVDs, you can watch them anyway you want. it doesn't have to be illegal, in fact, such thinking is a bit archaic by modern standards. but one aspect I do hate is, why isn't internet radio free? that's just dumb. > Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 19:07:09 -0600 > From: brain at jbrain.com > To: > CC: General at mail.mobygames.com > Subject: Re: Content rights > > Jim Leonard wrote: > > There is a very large market for DVD sets of shows, and as long as the > > set contains extra materials (commentary is usually a requirement), > > the set can sell to a customer even if they have watched all of the > > shows online. > To use your music analogy, I buy DVDs for the same reason I buy CDs. > I'm leery of online music and online shows due to the restictions > imposed on listening/viewing. > > > > > > No doubt, then, that your friend is doing this quite illegally. I > > would like to know what internet/cable/whatever service he is using > > that not only *provides* but *allows* every show on every network over > > TCP/IP. > I'm not sure I follow this. If this guy uses MythTV to save all the > shows to NAS for time-shifted viewing, how is that "illegal"? > > Jim > _________________________________________________________________ Show them the way! Add maps and directions to your party invites. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/events.aspx From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Jan 14 17:46:36 2009 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 15:46:36 -0800 Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: <496E744F.7040706@bitsavers.org> References: <496E744F.7040706@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <6772A0AD-FF0D-4D04-B040-78AA884E978D@shiresoft.com> Actually, he's gotten pretty far on it. I just talked to him today about it. I'd have to go back and look at my e-mail archives but late Nov/Dec he had it passing all of the DEC CPU diagnostics on a verilog simulator. Today he told me how many FFs & LUTs it took (not as much as he thought) to implement a KA10 style CPU (so he's doing synthesis). TTFN - Guy On Jan 14, 2009, at 3:25 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > Both Neil Franklin and > > Doug Conroy have done work in this area. > > Dave Conroy. > > He's not had time to work on it for a while now. > > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Jan 15 00:08:21 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 22:08:21 -0800 Subject: "Tyrotek" analog computer References: <49699ECB.E8A9D0D2@cs.ubc.ca> <496AFA01.7F8AA221@cs.ubc.ca> <496C30F1.75C99D3@cs.ubc.ca> <496CBBBD.7010308@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <496ED2D5.A81CA1B9@cs.ubc.ca> Scanning wrote: > > I have a PDF of the schematic for the Heathkit EC-1 and / or there is a guy > on Ebay selling the Operations manual for $8.00 and free shipping ; > Item number - 120362320437 Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > > Brent Hilpert wrote: > > .. have to see if one can still get the manual for the EC-1, re discussion of a > > couple of weeks ago about access to Heath manuals being removed from the web. > > I put up my copy here: > > http://www.dvq.com/docs/oldhkits/EC1-OP.pdf Thanks, I've downloaded a copy. From pontus at update.uu.se Thu Jan 15 01:39:56 2009 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 08:39:56 +0100 Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: References: <496E3BC2.1020005@hawkmountain.net> <7d3530220901141132u21092c4dvb0073a5ba5af4200@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <496EE84C.2040605@update.uu.se> > Anyway, as far as I have been able to determine, all the KA-10 systems > left in the world are located near Johnny Eriksson, as are all the KI-10 > systems. > > I suppose you mean Johnny Billquist, or is there another big collector I don't know about :) > > Oh. I didn't mention that, did I? The Toad-1 system dissipates about > 1500W in operation and plugs into a wall socket. The KL-10, with the > original power harness, requires 240V x 60A 3-phase, with a power-on > inrush of ~12.4KVA, and a steady-state operational requirement of ~6-9KVA. > > I Wish we could get our DECsystem-20 running again, I think we could get the power, but space and cooling is more of a concern. Regards, Pontus From bqt at softjar.se Wed Jan 14 03:45:05 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 10:45:05 +0100 Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: <200901140754.n0E7rSvr062397@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901140754.n0E7rSvr062397@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <496DB421.7060507@softjar.se> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jan 13, 2009, at 3:39 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: >>> >> And one is in the possession of my acquaintance Peter Lothberg, >>> >> unless that's who you're talking about in the last paragraph. (he >>> >> has done a lot of work for Cisco) >> > >> > Mm-hmm. >> > >> > He was one of cisco's first customers in Europe. His friend, the >> > owner of XKL, co-founded cisco Systems. Notice that I didn't use >> > *anyone's* name who has not made ownership of a Toad-1 public >> > knowledge. > > As far as I'm aware, it is public knowledge. At least he never > treated it as much of a secret. A shortie on Peter. You can see parts of his PDP-10 collection here: http://www.stupi.se/Bilder/pdp-10/index.html Stupi is Peter's company where he do some fun stuff. I don't think his Toad is on right now, but he have an SC30 that is. > ncp tell sol sho exec Node summary as of 14-JAN-09 10:41:34 Executor node = 59.10 (SOL) Identification = Systems Concepts SF CA USA - SC30M - DN-20 4.0 State = On, Active links = 0 > ncp tell toad1 sho exec NCP -- Show failed, Listener connect failed, node unreachable And I'm not aware that it's a kept secret either. But then again, Peter is not exactly the guy who walks around boasting about it either. Johnny From jrr at flippers.com Wed Jan 14 13:45:58 2009 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 11:45:58 -0800 Subject: FT: Home needed for a couple of SCSI hard drives - full height, Maxtor 760MB Message-ID: <496E40F6.3090709@flippers.com> I have a few (2 or 3) of these sitting in storage that were working when retired ten years ago. Maxtor model XT-8760S dated around 1988. I am looking for a couple of single or double speed SCSI tray-load CD-Rom drives - trade? John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From rubendan at coqui.net Wed Jan 14 17:40:26 2009 From: rubendan at coqui.net (Ruben Rivera) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 18:40:26 -0500 Subject: ibm sys/36 5360 basic needed Message-ID: <400C00E0C9BE4F41AACD0337689DE700@RubenPC> Hello My name is Ruben Rivera Do you have the repair Manual and diskettes for IBM 5363 I have some sys 36 and software too you can call me at 787-598-1055 or rubendan at coqui.net From tad at rave.com Wed Jan 14 17:10:26 2009 From: tad at rave.com (Tad Bilby) Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 18:10:26 -0500 Subject: NCCC - Sunfire V100 / Solaris References: <18141.62.140.137.30.1231533528.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> <496E06C1.5030109@ubanproductions.com> <496E2336.8010702@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <55A896C8ADF30847A3C9BA5785DC92850137EAA6@rave-exchange.rave.com> Try "console -f" from the sc> prompt. - Tad * -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tom Uban Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 12:39 PM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: NCCC - Sunfire V100 / Solaris The "console" command from "lom>" yeilds "Console not shared". The "#." command is supposed to be issued from Solaris, which is not yet installed (or running). I need to access the "forth" monitor which has the "ok" prompt, but again, the "console" command does not connect. --tom Andy Piercy wrote: > "console" > > and > > "#." to returne I think... > > Ta, > > A. > > > > 2009/1/14 Tom Uban : >> Ok, through a combination of experimentation and help from all of >> you, I've been able to get to the "lom>" prompt. Woot! But now I >> seem to face a new problem. I would like to install Solaris from >> the CD drive, but I need to access the "forth" boot mode "ok" prompt. >> When I try to use the "console" command, it reports "Console is >> not shared". I've tried setting bootmode to forth and issuing the >> "poweron" command, but I am still unable to gain access to the "ok" >> prompt console. Some googling reveals others have had this same >> problem and that there is supposed to be a doc in the sunsolve >> database which describes something about this, but I would need >> a service contract to access the document. How do I access the >> main processor forth mode console? >> >> Continuing thanks... >> >> --tom >> >> Ed Groenenberg wrote: >>> Tom, >>> >>> Best way is to install Solrais 8, 9 or 10. >>> Then install the SUNWlomu, SUNWlomr & SUNWlomm packages >>> followed by patch 110208-22. Then use the lom tool to >>> manipulate the lom config to your likings. >>> BTW, the patch has the latest firmware for the lom, so you >>> can also upgrade it if wanted. >>> >>> Regards, >>> >>> Ed >>> >>>> Sorry about the lack of true classic computing content to this >>>> question, but it does relate to a little bit older machine, a >>>> Sunfire V100... >>>> >>>> I purchased one of these from eBay in hopes of possibly upgrading >>>> my home firewall and discovered that the machine has a Lights-Out- >>>> Management (LOM) CPU controlling the main UltraSPARC IIi processor. >>>> The LOM runs a monitor program (LOMlite) which on this particular >>>> machine is currently configured to require a login/password when >>>> communicating with the machine over the console serial port. >>>> >>>> >From seemingly endless google searching, it sounds like I should be >>>> able to break out of the LOMlite login/password cycle by resetting >>>> the machine with the JP13 jumper. When I do this, LOM is reset, a >>>> few seemingly ok diagnostic messages are emitted, and then the login >>>> password are again requested. >>>> >>>> I was unable to determine if there is some sort of default login >>>> password. >>>> >>>> The only path seems to be to possibly load the PATA IDE hard drive >>>> with Solaris, and then use the Solaris tools to reset the LOM setup. >>>> >>>> Does anyone on this list have any experience with this machine? >>>> >>>> --tnx >>>> --tom >>>> >>> >>> >>> >> > > From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Jan 15 07:25:25 2009 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 07:25:25 -0600 Subject: Content rights In-Reply-To: <496E8C3D.3000604@jbrain.com> References: <496CF994.5080104@jwsss.com> <496E6DB7.5040405@oldskool.org> <496E8C3D.3000604@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <496F3945.3000401@oldskool.org> Jim Brain wrote: >> No doubt, then, that your friend is doing this quite illegally. I >> would like to know what internet/cable/whatever service he is using >> that not only *provides* but *allows* every show on every network over >> TCP/IP. > I'm not sure I follow this. If this guy uses MythTV to save all the > shows to NAS for time-shifted viewing, how is that "illegal"? It's not, but that's not what you implied. You implied that he has some special setup with any show on-demand. What he has in reality is regular broadcast television, merely timeshifted. He still gets shows as they are broadcast. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Thu Jan 15 08:18:37 2009 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 09:18:37 -0500 Subject: Content rights In-Reply-To: <496E8C3D.3000604@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <200901151418.n0FEIeKm063744@keith.ezwind.net> On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 19:07:09 -0600, Jim Brain wrote: >I'm not sure I follow this. If this guy uses MythTV to save all the >shows to NAS for time-shifted viewing, how is that "illegal"? Using MythTV or a PVR to time shift is not a problem, but the origional comment was "setup a NAS device and stream everything from online to their systems" and streaming online is a crime, as is distribution to others. "from online to their systems" indicates someone is distributing them to him. Had it been worded "from on air or live to their system" I would not have commented. The other Bob From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Jan 15 08:31:16 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 08:31:16 -0600 Subject: Content rights In-Reply-To: <496E6DB7.5040405@oldskool.org> References: <496CF994.5080104@jwsss.com> <496E6DB7.5040405@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <496F48B4.9080406@gmail.com> Jim Leonard wrote: > TV won't die any time soon, but is changing into a quasi-music-industry > model. Maybe one day the whole 'net will be DRMed up to the eyeballs and only viewable with officially-sanctioned proprietary tools released by the consortium who control it. That'll be fun... ;-) From dgahling at hotmail.com Thu Jan 15 09:45:38 2009 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 10:45:38 -0500 Subject: Content rights In-Reply-To: <496F3945.3000401@oldskool.org> References: <496CF994.5080104@jwsss.com> <496E6DB7.5040405@oldskool.org> <496E8C3D.3000604@jbrain.com> <496F3945.3000401@oldskool.org> Message-ID: That's not what I said or implied at all. by "any show" it doesn't mean any show broadcast available. it means "any show" he HAS or is publicly available. it is you that assumed it must be something illegal, which is a fallacy of old way of thinking. > Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 07:25:25 -0600 > From: trixter at oldskool.org > To: General at mail.mobygames.com > CC: > Subject: Re: Content rights > > Jim Brain wrote: > >> No doubt, then, that your friend is doing this quite illegally. I > >> would like to know what internet/cable/whatever service he is using > >> that not only *provides* but *allows* every show on every network over > >> TCP/IP. > > I'm not sure I follow this. If this guy uses MythTV to save all the > > shows to NAS for time-shifted viewing, how is that "illegal"? > > It's not, but that's not what you implied. You implied that he has some > special setup with any show on-demand. What he has in reality is > regular broadcast television, merely timeshifted. He still gets shows > as they are broadcast. > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ > Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ > A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ _________________________________________________________________ From dgahling at hotmail.com Thu Jan 15 09:48:39 2009 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 10:48:39 -0500 Subject: Content rights In-Reply-To: <200901151418.n0FEIeKm063744@keith.ezwind.net> References: <496E8C3D.3000604@jbrain.com> <200901151418.n0FEIeKm063744@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: No it's not! you can stream any of your own content, or creative commons, or public content, or free content online all you want. There is absolutely NOTHING illegal about any of that! If you want to stream your collection of home movies, or even other public things, or say you have a band and stream your own music or videos, that's totally legit, and your right. and, you can also stream (download) from online sites, of any publicly broadcast material, free, or other content. The original replier to my message "assumed" there was illegal activity and wrote meaning and extra words into my posting that were not there. it's only the dinosaurs that think you can't enjoy media without doing something questionable. > From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 09:18:37 -0500 > Subject: Re: Content rights > > On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 19:07:09 -0600, Jim Brain wrote: > > >I'm not sure I follow this. If this guy uses MythTV to save all the > >shows to NAS for time-shifted viewing, how is that "illegal"? > > Using MythTV or a PVR to time shift is not a problem, but the origional > comment was "setup a NAS device and stream everything from online to their systems" > and streaming online is a crime, as is distribution to others. > "from online to their systems" indicates someone is distributing them to him. > Had it been worded "from on air or live to their system" I would not have commented. > > The other Bob > > > _________________________________________________________________ From dgahling at hotmail.com Thu Jan 15 09:50:38 2009 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 10:50:38 -0500 Subject: Content rights In-Reply-To: <496F48B4.9080406@gmail.com> References: <496CF994.5080104@jwsss.com> <496E6DB7.5040405@oldskool.org> <496F48B4.9080406@gmail.com> Message-ID: I personally would be glad to see "traditional" tv die, with such nonsense going on. And if they do DRM it to hell, what will happen will just be what happened with BBSes, they'll drive people to social, personal sites. the commercial content will die because people wont put up with it, or they'll find a way around it, if they can't, it'll drive people away. then the system they setup will die. it's happened before, it'll happen again. > Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 08:31:16 -0600 > From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com > To: > Subject: Re: Content rights > > Jim Leonard wrote: > > TV won't die any time soon, but is changing into a quasi-music-industry > > model. > > Maybe one day the whole 'net will be DRMed up to the eyeballs and only > viewable with officially-sanctioned proprietary tools released by the > consortium who control it. That'll be fun... > > ;-) > _________________________________________________________________ From brain at jbrain.com Thu Jan 15 09:51:26 2009 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 09:51:26 -0600 Subject: Content rights In-Reply-To: <200901151418.n0FEIeKm063744@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200901151418.n0FEIeKm063744@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <496F5B7E.8010901@jbrain.com> Bob Bradlee wrote: > > Using MythTV or a PVR to time shift is not a problem, but the origional > comment was "setup a NAS device and stream everything from online to their systems" > and streaming online is a crime, as is distribution to others. > "from online to their systems" indicates someone is distributing them to him. > Had it been worded "from on air or live to their system" I would not have commented. > Sorry, I misunderstood the OP information. Still, I'd like to understand this better, maybe off-list. I would think streaming content to a NAS and then later streaming that same content through a home network to a PC or TV in the house would be allowed. Jim From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Thu Jan 15 10:24:46 2009 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 11:24:46 -0500 Subject: Content rights In-Reply-To: <496F5B7E.8010901@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <200901151624.n0FGOp2Y077212@keith.ezwind.net> On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 09:51:26 -0600, Jim Brain wrote: >Bob Bradlee wrote: >> >> Using MythTV or a PVR to time shift is not a problem, but the origional >> comment was "setup a NAS device and stream everything from online to their systems" >> and streaming online is a crime, as is distribution to others. >> "from online to their systems" indicates someone is distributing them to him. >> Had it been worded "from on air or live to their system" I would not have commented. >> >Sorry, I misunderstood the OP information. Still, I'd like to >understand this better, maybe off-list. I would think streaming content >to a NAS and then later streaming that same content through a home >network to a PC or TV in the house would be allowed. >Jim I use a Directv HDDVR with a built in Intell Viiv to access content on my tv, and a second HDDVR to drive a Haua Platinum HD box to "stream" to my computers. http://www.myhava.com/products.html Others I know use SlingBoxes. None of which are on topic here. Feel free to reply off list. The Other Bob From dgahling at hotmail.com Thu Jan 15 10:25:55 2009 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 11:25:55 -0500 Subject: Content rights In-Reply-To: <496F5B7E.8010901@jbrain.com> References: <200901151418.n0FEIeKm063744@keith.ezwind.net> <496F5B7E.8010901@jbrain.com> Message-ID: There's also a massive amount of TV shows available FTA (Free To Air), a lot of people may not be interested in the content, but there is a fair bit of it that is really interesting. There's even HDTV FTA, in our area there are something like 23 channels being broadcast this way, you use what looks like an old grid/CB antenna. Going to other countries content (satellite) FTA may be questionable in some cases, but even there, there is a lot of good free (public) content. If you buy a ton of DVDs, and store them on your media server, and watch them in your own home, I think that would be acceptable as well. I still say conventional TV is dead. internet media, streaming is the future. > Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 09:51:26 -0600 > From: brain at jbrain.com > To: > Subject: Re: Content rights > > Bob Bradlee wrote: > > > > Using MythTV or a PVR to time shift is not a problem, but the origional > > comment was "setup a NAS device and stream everything from online to their systems" > > and streaming online is a crime, as is distribution to others. > > "from online to their systems" indicates someone is distributing them to him. > > Had it been worded "from on air or live to their system" I would not have commented. > > > Sorry, I misunderstood the OP information. Still, I'd like to > understand this better, maybe off-list. I would think streaming content > to a NAS and then later streaming that same content through a home > network to a PC or TV in the house would be allowed. > > Jim _________________________________________________________________ Drag n? drop?Get easy photo sharing with Windows Live? Photos. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/photos.aspx From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Jan 15 10:34:28 2009 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 10:34:28 -0600 Subject: Content rights In-Reply-To: References: <200901151418.n0FEIeKm063744@keith.ezwind.net> <496F5B7E.8010901@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20090115103406.04133eb0@mail.threedee.com> This thread is not related to classic computers, right? - John From dgahling at hotmail.com Thu Jan 15 10:48:04 2009 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 11:48:04 -0500 Subject: Old Software rights (was content rights) In-Reply-To: <200901151624.n0FGOp2Y077212@keith.ezwind.net> References: <496F5B7E.8010901@jbrain.com> <200901151624.n0FGOp2Y077212@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: In an unrelated topic, I have a bunch of old programs from my University days, back in the late 70's, early 80's all Vax/VMS code, in various languages, etc. In those days we never put "(C)" or copyright notices on code. I'm just wondering if it's generally "ok" to release this code to the public? It's been 30 some years (longer than copyright would apply anyhow). I have searched for 20 years for some of the authors and never found anyone. 14 years ago I posted pieces of it, and said "if anyone objects to this, please contact me" and never got any response from anyone. The system and associated parts used for the development are long gone. But another age old question, who has rights to code developed on the universities equipment? I know it's a common question these days, but "back in the day" such considerations never occurred, it was a different era. Everyone from that era has also vanished with the wind, I know, I've looked. So is it fairly safely abandoned? Another way to look at it - If it was your code, some small silly thing you wrote, would you care? Dan. _________________________________________________________________ From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Thu Jan 15 10:48:32 2009 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 11:48:32 -0500 Subject: Content rights In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200901151648.n0FGmZ4l080274@keith.ezwind.net> The question of streaming or distributing ones own or licences content is not a question here. Nor is the greay areas surrounding our hobby is under discussion. Please understand, some of us on this list are very sensitive about licensing, ask anyone in the Broadcast industry, they will tell you there is no such thing as Free Broadcasting someone is always paying the cost. Content producers and broadcasters truely dont care about personal use or "low power" attempts at shareing content, but you do not want to tangle with their lawyers over distribution rights and be wrong! Word of warning, do not leave a back door open to the public internet or the "Bots" WILL find it, and there are Vampire lawyers out there who feast on Bots droppings, leaving their prey very much weeker. Contact me off list if you want a more detailed example or three :) But Lets end it here, please ..... The other Bob On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 10:48:39 -0500, Dan Gahlinger wrote: >No it's not! >you can stream any of your own content, or creative commons, or public content, >or free content online all you want. >There is absolutely NOTHING illegal about any of that! >If you want to stream your collection of home movies, or even other public things, >or say you have a band and stream your own music or videos, that's totally legit, and your right. >and, you can also stream (download) from online sites, of any publicly broadcast material, free, >or other content. >The original replier to my message "assumed" there was illegal activity and wrote meaning and extra >words into my posting that were not there. >it's only the dinosaurs that think you can't enjoy media without doing something questionable. >> From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 09:18:37 -0500 >> Subject: Re: Content rights >> >> On Wed, 14 Jan 2009 19:07:09 -0600, Jim Brain wrote: >> >> >I'm not sure I follow this. If this guy uses MythTV to save all the >> >shows to NAS for time-shifted viewing, how is that "illegal"? >> >> Using MythTV or a PVR to time shift is not a problem, but the origional >> comment was "setup a NAS device and stream everything from online to their systems" >> and streaming online is a crime, as is distribution to others. >> "from online to their systems" indicates someone is distributing them to him. >> Had it been worded "from on air or live to their system" I would not have commented. >> >> The other Bob >> >> >> >_________________________________________________________________ From dgahling at hotmail.com Thu Jan 15 10:48:45 2009 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 11:48:45 -0500 Subject: Content rights In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20090115103406.04133eb0@mail.threedee.com> References: <200901151418.n0FEIeKm063744@keith.ezwind.net> <496F5B7E.8010901@jbrain.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20090115103406.04133eb0@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: yeah, we should take that all off-list. even the "off-topic" header of this list has been stretched :) > Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 10:34:28 -0600 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > From: jfoust at threedee.com > Subject: RE: Content rights > > > This thread is not related to classic computers, right? > > - John > _________________________________________________________________ Keep in touch and up to date with friends and family. Make the connection now. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/ From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com Thu Jan 15 11:20:10 2009 From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 12:20:10 -0500 Subject: A few newb/background questions about the XKL TOAD Message-ID: <8dd2d95c0901150920r4ed7d20te2ac77af67b9918c@mail.gmail.com> There's recently been a lot of talk about the XKL TOAD, and I, as an interested lurker had been holding my tounge, despite having some questions. No more. 1. How does the XKL compare with the Jupiter? Given that they both had features like an extended address space, was the XKL basically a "if DEC won't build it, we will" type of thing? 2. What the difference between the XKL TOAD and the various SC systems? Was SC a reseller/packager/intergrator or did they have their own seperate "Super KL"? 3. Does KLH10 support any of the XKL extensions? 4. Do the freeware copies of TOPS-20 floating around the internet have any support for these extensions or were those proprietary to the copies of TOPS-20 that shipped with TOADs? Thanks for answering this barrage of silly questions, Mike From geoffr at zipcon.net Thu Jan 15 11:30:25 2009 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 09:30:25 -0800 Subject: NCCC - Sunfire V100 / Solaris In-Reply-To: References: <18141.62.140.137.30.1231533528.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl><496E06C1.5030109@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: Option 2 below seems to be the one that applicable to your situation. From: http://www.sunshack.org/data/sh/2.1.8/infoserver.central/data/syshbk/collect ions/SRDB/1-25-78349-1.html Problem Statement: On LOM, the console command does not work with the following message. In addition, console -f does not help. lom>console Console is not shared lom>console -f Console is not shared Resolution: This problem can be seen when ttya is not set as input-device and output-device on OpenBoot[TM] PROM (OBP). To enable console functionality on LOM, it is neccessary to set ttya on both parameters. There are three options to do this. Option 1 When the Solaris[TM] Operating System is running on the Sun Fire V100, it can be set up by using the eeprom command with the following instruction: 1. Login to the system as root. 2. Execute the following commands: # eeprom input-device=ttya # eeprom output-device=ttya 3. Reboot the system Option 2 When Solaris Operating is not running on the Sun Fire V100, set to the default NVRAM settings by using bootmode command on LOM. This sets ttya as a default value for input-device and output-device. Do the following in LOM: lom> bootmode reset_nvram lom> reset Option 3 When Solaris Operating System is not running and the customer does not want to change other OBP parameters, try to connect a serial terminal via the serial-B port. On this port, OBP prompt might be seen. If the ok prompt can be seen, then set the two paramters with the following instructions: ok setenv input-device ttya ok setenv output-device ttya ok reset-all From lehmann at ans-netz.de Thu Jan 15 11:33:09 2009 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 18:33:09 +0100 Subject: what harddisk is this? In-Reply-To: <20090114194130.467b5f9d.lehmann@ans-netz.de> References: <20090114194130.467b5f9d.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Message-ID: <20090115183309.e99f0ad0.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Oliver Lehmann wrote: > http://files.pofo.de/harddisk/ > Ok, got two new pics - what interface is this? http://files.pofo.de/harddisk/ibm.jpg http://files.pofo.de/harddisk/ibm1.jpg -- Oliver Lehmann http://www.pofo.de/ http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Thu Jan 15 11:40:32 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 12:40:32 -0500 Subject: Old Software rights (was content rights) References: <496F5B7E.8010901@jbrain.com> <200901151624.n0FGOp2Y077212@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <18799.29968.483700.927030@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Dan" == Dan Gahlinger writes: Dan> In an unrelated topic, Dan> I have a bunch of old programs from my University days, back in Dan> the late 70's, early 80's all Vax/VMS code, in various Dan> languages, etc. Dan> In those days we never put "(C)" or copyright notices on code. Dan> I'm just wondering if it's generally "ok" to release this code Dan> to the public? First of all, IANAL. So apply salt to what follows. There's a lot of good stuff in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_copyright_law It depends on the date. It used to be the case that a "work" published without copyright notice was in the public domain. That is no longer true. Also, I'm pretty sure the rules are different for unpublished works. Some early commercial software products tripped over this -- CDC's COS and IBM OS/360 apparently are examples of public domain works. Dan> It's been 30 some years (longer than copyright would apply Dan> anyhow). I have searched for 20 years for some of the authors Dan> and never found anyone. Copyright these days is a LOT longer than 30 years. And even back in the 1940s, it was 28 years initially plus another 28 years if renewed (and if the copyright was still in effect in 1976 then the new long terms would into play, if I understood right) -- so if you have a copyrighted work from 1940, it's in the public domain today if it wasn't renewed, but it's still copyrighted if it WAS renewed. Dan> But another age old question, who has rights to code developed Dan> on the universities equipment? I know it's a common question Dan> these days, but "back in the day" such considerations never Dan> occurred, it was a different era. If the author was an employee, it would be "work for hire" and belong to the employer. Otherwise, it would belong to the author. For example, if you wrote it as a student for a class (as opposed to writing it as a research assistant in exchange for a pay check) it's your property, not the university's. That assumes there wasn't some explicit contract in effect assigning copyright to the university. (That happened occasionally; I remember the University of Illinois did this with PLATO -- but not in any other area that I ran into.) Dan> Everyone from that era has also vanished with the wind, I know, Dan> I've looked. Dan> So is it fairly safely abandoned? Another way to look at it - Dan> If it was your code, some small silly thing you wrote, would you Dan> care? Almost certainly not. But I find it's worth working hard to ask; people are often very willing to say yes, but if blind-sided by someone publishing their work without asking first will get annoyed. (That's particularly true if the publication is without correct credit; it sounds to me like you're careful to avoid that mistake...) paul From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Thu Jan 15 11:49:05 2009 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 12:49:05 -0500 Subject: what harddisk is this? In-Reply-To: <20090115183309.e99f0ad0.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Message-ID: <200901151749.n0FHn9sr086674@keith.ezwind.net> It is the 21ED interfaced used on the IBM System 36 and 38's The origional drives were 30mb but there was a later 60mb version. I dont know of anything else that used them. Bob On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 18:33:09 +0100, Oliver Lehmann wrote: >Oliver Lehmann wrote: >> http://files.pofo.de/harddisk/ >> >Ok, got two new pics - what interface is this? >http://files.pofo.de/harddisk/ibm.jpg >http://files.pofo.de/harddisk/ibm1.jpg >-- > Oliver Lehmann > http://www.pofo.de/ > http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ From slawmaster at gmail.com Thu Jan 15 12:25:46 2009 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 13:25:46 -0500 Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: <6772A0AD-FF0D-4D04-B040-78AA884E978D@shiresoft.com> References: <496E744F.7040706@bitsavers.org> <6772A0AD-FF0D-4D04-B040-78AA884E978D@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <7d3530220901151025m66f19bcj7b7d0f46e1d74a2b@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 6:46 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > Actually, he's gotten pretty far on it. I just talked to him today about > it. I'd have to go back and look at my e-mail archives but late Nov/Dec he > had it passing all of the DEC CPU diagnostics on a verilog simulator. Today > he told me how many FFs & LUTs it took (not as much as he thought) to > implement a KA10 style CPU (so he's doing synthesis). > > TTFN - Guy > > On Jan 14, 2009, at 3:25 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > >> > Both Neil Franklin and >> > Doug Conroy have done work in this area. >> >> Dave Conroy. >> >> He's not had time to work on it for a while now. >> >> > Promising! I've wanted to see a -10 in FPGA for a while now, never had the ambition (or the hardware) to try writing one in VHDL or anything. Good luck to Dave, I guess. John -- "I've tried programming Ruby on Rails, following TechCrunch in my RSS reader, and drinking absinthe. It doesn't work. I'm going back to C, Hunter S. Thompson, and cheap whiskey." -- Ted Dziuba From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 15 12:33:24 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 10:33:24 -0800 Subject: Old Software Rights Message-ID: <496F10F4.25473.1EAF9DC7@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Jan 2009 at 12:40, Paul Koning wrote: Copyright these days is a LOT longer than 30 years. And even back in > the 1940s, it was 28 years initially plus another 28 years if renewed > (and if the copyright was still in effect in 1976 then the new long > terms would into play, if I understood right) -- so if you have a > copyrighted work from 1940, it's in the public domain today if it > wasn't renewed, but it's still copyrighted if it WAS renewed. Copyright is implicit in all works produced today, whether or not stated. Almost all software published during the 1970s has a copyright notice embedded. After the Uruguay Round of the GATT talks, copyright for works published after 1923 whose copyright was in effect as of the URAA is 75 years, later extended to 90 by the Sonny Bono Copyright Extension Act (yes, he, or rather his widow, of the other half of Cher. Reportedly, Mary wanted to make copyright perpetual, but was informed that such a move was distinctly unconstituional). Read about the law at http://www.copyright.gov. Rules outside of the US may be substantially different. In particular, after the fall of the Soviet Union, legislation was passed in the US to allow works of Soviet origin to be removed from the Public Domain (so-called "restored" copyright. Who says you can't put the toothpaste back into the tube?). However, they may still be freely copied in Canada. Bottom line is that there is no such legal entity as "abandonware" and you promulgate the idea at your own risk. While economic damage is part of civil actions brought by copyright holders, it is not the whole picture. Unlike patent infringement, copyright violation in the US is a criminal offense under the DMCA. Just because no one seems to be using IBM 5160s to run Harvard Presentation Graphics from 360K diskettes does not make it legal to copy and distribute it. It's not up to the infringer to declare whether or not a work has any value. So you may have to wait until, oh, 2075 or so before you can legally hand out those old copies of Lotus 1-2-3, assuming that our Congress isn't goaded into action by the Empire of the Mouse again. As a musician, I'm continually frustrated by publishers of old copyrighted material (some stuff going back to the 1930s) who declare a work to be "permanently out of print" and will not authorize a copy (for a fee) nor provide me with a copy that they created from their archives. Currently, the only resort left is to pick some other work. There's nothing in copyright law to force the owner to publish or support his works, nor give permission to copy. And the notion of "Fair Use" is a very slippery slope--if you guess wrong, you're fully exposed. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jan 15 12:36:35 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 13:36:35 -0500 Subject: FPGA PDP-10 (was Re: XKL TOAD) Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 1:25 PM, John Floren wrote: > On Wed, Jan 14, 2009 at 6:46 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> Actually, he's gotten pretty far on it. I just talked to him today about >> it. I'd have to go back and look at my e-mail archives but late Nov/Dec he >> had it passing all of the DEC CPU diagnostics on a verilog simulator. Today >> he told me how many FFs & LUTs it took (not as much as he thought) to >> implement a KA10 style CPU (so he's doing synthesis). Nice. Thanks for the update, Guy. > Promising! I've wanted to see a -10 in FPGA for a while now, never had > the ambition (or the hardware) to try writing one in VHDL or anything. > Good luck to Dave, I guess. As I mentioned the other night, I'm peripherally interested in an FPGA-implemented -10, but I have a definite budget - I'm willing to roll a lot of my own hardware (loose parts, soldering, etc), but I really can't justify more than a few hundred $$$ in total. I certainly can't assist with the VHDL-end of things. Once things get past the experimental stage and it's booting TOPS-20, I'm likely to be more interested. My requirements are pretty loose - if it runs one of the extant compiled versions of MDL Zork, I'm in. -ethan From RichA at vulcan.com Thu Jan 15 12:53:30 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 10:53:30 -0800 Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: <496EE84C.2040605@update.uu.se> References: <496E3BC2.1020005@hawkmountain.net> <7d3530220901141132u21092c4dvb0073a5ba5af4200@mail.gmail.com> <496EE84C.2040605@update.uu.se> Message-ID: > From: Pontus > Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2009 11:40 PM >> Anyway, as far as I have been able to determine, all the KA-10 >> systems left in the world are located near Johnny Eriksson, as are >> all the KI-10 systems. > I suppose you mean Johnny Billquist, or is there another big collector > I don't know about :) Yes, I did. Too many Swedish PDP-10 hackers to keep track of without a program, you know? ;-) Thanks for the correction! Rich Alderson Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Jan 15 13:03:29 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 19:03:29 +0000 Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: References: <200901141506.43879.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <1232046209.6127.32.camel@elric> On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 15:19 -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote: > That and I don't have adequate electric service to the place without > upgrading the pole. I've got 100A for the house and quonset hut > *combined*. 24kW should be enough for anyone ;-) Of course, if you're in one of these funny 110V countries, that's only 11kW in which case my electric shower will eat most of that. Gordon From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jan 15 13:27:32 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 14:27:32 -0500 Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: <1232046209.6127.32.camel@elric> References: <200901141506.43879.pat@computer-refuge.org> <1232046209.6127.32.camel@elric> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 2:03 PM, Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: > On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 15:19 -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> That and I don't have adequate electric service to the place without >> upgrading the pole. I've got 100A for the house and quonset hut >> *combined*. > > 24kW should be enough for anyone ;-) > > Of course, if you're in one of these funny 110V countries, that's only > 11kW in which case my electric shower will eat most of that. Um... yeah... 11kW, not 24kW. I'm in the U.S. Fortunately I have a gas stove and gas heat and gas hot water, but the oven is electric, and so is the dryer. The quonset hut presently has a 30A breaker at the disconnect at the pole. I can run a couple of items at once (say an 11/750 and disk), but I'd rather not be out there replacing cartridge fuses on a regular basis. -ethan From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Jan 15 13:30:53 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 19:30:53 +0000 Subject: OT-ish, adverts was RE: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: References: <496CF994.5080104@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <1232047853.6127.39.camel@elric> On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 11:50 -0500, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > It's a fascinating discussion, especially with "everything" going this way. > Just exactly how well will the age-old advertising methods work online, > especially with everyone and their brother using things like ad-block? Make your adverts not be annoying. I feel bad about adblocking *every single sidebar ad* on qrz.com, but if they weren't all flickering animated gifs that strobe red and green I would tolerate them. I block any and all Flash ads, and any that are animated gifs. I also block those bloody annoying "pop-up link on words" intellitxt.com ads. They're annoying. Don't be annoying. Gordon From RichA at vulcan.com Thu Jan 15 13:49:06 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 11:49:06 -0800 Subject: A few newb/background questions about the XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: <8dd2d95c0901150920r4ed7d20te2ac77af67b9918c@mail.gmail.com> References: <8dd2d95c0901150920r4ed7d20te2ac77af67b9918c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > From: Michael Kerpan > Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 9:20 AM > There's recently been a lot of talk about the XKL TOAD, and I, as an > interested lurker had been holding my tounge, despite having some > questions. No more. > 1. How does the XKL compare with the Jupiter? Given that they both had > features like an extended address space, was the XKL basically a "if > DEC won't build it, we will" type of thing? The Jupiter (KC-10 processor) was physically very large, and designed to use the next generation(s) of DEC peripherals. It was implemented using technology similar to the KL-10, with a CI bus to HSC-50s. It was supposed to be a lot faster, but failed to meet specs. The Toad-1 System was the result of Len Bosack's suggestion in the mid 1970s (as the KL-10 was going out the door) that DEC should build "a 10 On A Desk." It was not originally intended to be a server. (This was the original product plan of cisco Systems, by the way. TCP/IP routers were simply a cash cow to generate revenue for the development effort. The VC Board of Directors saw things differently when the money rolled in.) As finally built, it's the size of a two-drawer file cabinet. The XKL-1 CPU uses a couple of Altera FPGAs and a 2916 microsequencer as the microcode engine. Depending on instruction load, it is 1.8 to 2.5 times as fast as a KL-10. > 2. What the difference between the XKL TOAD and the various SC > systems? Was SC a reseller/packager/intergrator or did they have their > own seperate "Super KL"? Systems Concepts started in the 1960s. Their first product, the SA-10, was a KA-10 I/O bus to IBM 360 bus-and-tag protocol converter, which allowed PDP-10 systems to use IBM disks (and tapes, I believe). Mike Leavitt and Stew Nelson, along with Pete Sampson, Fred Wright, Stu Grossman, and a couple of others whose names I've forgotten 20 years later, designed and built the SC-30M (code name Mars--as Fred put it in their marketing brochure, "Mars is a lot smaller than Jupiter, but it's a lot closer.") to be a KL-10 clone that ran faster. It was implemented in TTL instead of the KL-10's ECL, and was pipelined (something people-- even at XKL--think you can't do with the PDP-10 ISA) for greater throughput. It originally came with SA (bus-and-tag), CI, and EI (NIA-20 compatible Ethernet) interfaces; they got the MI (MASSBUS) working at our (Stanford LOTS) insistence. It maxed out at 8MW physical memory, but the work to take TOPS-20 from 4MW to 8MW was lost in a disk crash on their KI-10. It was about 2.2 to 2.4 times as fast as a KL-10. The SC-30M was designed as a multiprocessor system, to support Tops-10 SMP in a single box. They repackaged a uniprocessor version as the SC-25 (and as the Sc-20, with a half-speed clock). The big follow-on was the SC-40, with floating-point hardware that pushed the performance of FP operations to more than 10x of the KL-10; I don't know how it measured up in general instruction mix terms, as I never worked on one. > 3. Does KLH10 support any of the XKL extensions? No. > 4. Do the freeware copies of TOPS-20 floating around the internet have > any support for these extensions or were those proprietary to the > copies of TOPS-20 that shipped with TOADs? The extensions are XKL proprietary as of this writing. > Thanks for answering this barrage of silly questions, Not silly at all. I'm glad that you asked. Rich Alderson Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jan 15 13:56:33 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 14:56:33 -0500 Subject: OT-ish, adverts was RE: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: <1232047853.6127.39.camel@elric> References: <496CF994.5080104@jwsss.com> <1232047853.6127.39.camel@elric> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 2:30 PM, Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: > I block any and all Flash ads, and any that are animated gifs. I also > block those bloody annoying "pop-up link on words" intellitxt.com ads. > > They're annoying. Don't be annoying. I have to block flash... I'm on a Mac w/Firefox, and it started crashing this week when certain flash bits were put up - I finally got control of my magic yo-yo browser by catching the pop-under opening a Flash ad, and closing the window before it could load. I was about to take my machine off-line to let the browser get to a stable state when I finally found the offender. :-P It must be "my fault" for trying to let Flash run on a non-Wintel box. :-/ It seems every few months, some update gets pushed through that causes Flash to completely hose the browser. Flash is annoying. If you try to sell me something with a Flash ad, I'll probably never see it. -ethan From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Jan 15 13:57:05 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 14:57:05 -0500 Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: References: <200901141506.43879.pat@computer-refuge.org> <1232046209.6127.32.camel@elric> Message-ID: <496F9511.2080107@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 2:03 PM, Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ > wrote: >> On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 15:19 -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >>> That and I don't have adequate electric service to the place without >>> upgrading the pole. I've got 100A for the house and quonset hut >>> *combined*. >> 24kW should be enough for anyone ;-) >> >> Of course, if you're in one of these funny 110V countries, that's only >> 11kW in which case my electric shower will eat most of that. > > Um... yeah... 11kW, not 24kW. I'm in the U.S. I thought that main breakers in the US split-phase system were rated for amps across the full 240V of the main feed? Peace... Sridhar From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Thu Jan 15 14:10:22 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 15:10:22 -0500 Subject: XKL TOAD References: <200901141506.43879.pat@computer-refuge.org> <1232046209.6127.32.camel@elric> <496F9511.2080107@gmail.com> Message-ID: <18799.38958.253713.56561@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Sridhar" == Sridhar Ayengar writes: Sridhar> Ethan Dicks wrote: >> On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 2:03 PM, Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ >> wrote: >>> On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 15:19 -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> >>>> That and I don't have adequate electric service to the place >>>> without upgrading the pole. I've got 100A for the house and >>>> quonset hut *combined*. >>> 24kW should be enough for anyone ;-) >>> >>> Of course, if you're in one of these funny 110V countries, that's >>> only 11kW in which case my electric shower will eat most of that. >> Um... yeah... 11kW, not 24kW. I'm in the U.S. Sridhar> I thought that main breakers in the US split-phase system Sridhar> were rated for amps across the full 240V of the main feed? Sort of. Amps per leg, so if you have a 100 amp feed, that means you have TWO 110 volt legs each rated at 100 amps. You can hang onto that 200 amps worth of 110 volt loads, or 100 amps worth of 220 volt loads, or some blend of the two (provided the 110 volt loads are well enough balanced across the two legs that neither hits its individual 100 amp limit). Some US homes have only one leg (just 110 volt) but I think that's only for ancient 30 amp and maybe 60 amp feeds; 100 and 200 are always "two phase". So we're pretty close to Gordon. paul From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Jan 15 14:14:19 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 15:14:19 -0500 Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: <18799.38958.253713.56561@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200901141506.43879.pat@computer-refuge.org> <1232046209.6127.32.camel@elric> <496F9511.2080107@gmail.com> <18799.38958.253713.56561@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <496F991B.5040409@gmail.com> Paul Koning wrote: > Sort of. Amps per leg, so if you have a 100 amp feed, that means you > have TWO 110 volt legs each rated at 100 amps. You can hang onto that > 200 amps worth of 110 volt loads, or 100 amps worth of 220 volt loads, > or some blend of the two (provided the 110 volt loads are well enough > balanced across the two legs that neither hits its individual 100 amp > limit). So you still have to multiply the rating by 240V to get the watts. > Some US homes have only one leg (just 110 volt) but I think that's > only for ancient 30 amp and maybe 60 amp feeds; 100 and 200 are always > "two phase". > > So we're pretty close to Gordon. I figured. Peace... Sridhar From vern4wright at yahoo.com Thu Jan 15 14:41:01 2009 From: vern4wright at yahoo.com (Vernon Wright) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 12:41:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Old Software rights (was content rights) Message-ID: <669234.13686.qm@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Dan, My first comment is - watch your back! --- On Thu, 1/15/09, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > From: Dan Gahlinger > Subject: Old Software rights (was content rights) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Thursday, January 15, 2009, 8:48 AM > In an unrelated topic, > > I have a bunch of old programs from my University days, > back in the late 70's, early 80's > all Vax/VMS code, in various languages, etc. > > In those days we never put "(C)" or copyright > notices on code. > I'm just wondering if it's generally "ok" > to release this code to the public? > > It's been 30 some years (longer than copyright would > apply anyhow). > I have searched for 20 years for some of the authors and > never found anyone. > > 14 years ago I posted pieces of it, and said "if > anyone objects to this, please contact me" > and never got any response from anyone. Just an experience I recall observing. A guy was posting old games on USENET (don't recall which group), from the CP/M to early IBM PC era - games for which no owner could he could find, games that seemed to be abandoned. And then one day he announced that he would no longer be doing this, having been warned by his ISP and having received a cease and desist notice from a law firm. > The system and associated parts used for the development > are long gone. Copyright is a can of worms, particularly with the obscenely long period that has been recently legislated. And there will always be someone willing to threaten action. Your examples seem safe, but I would be quick to be responsive to any request to "desist". > But another age old question, who has rights to code > developed on the universities equipment? > I know it's a common question these days, but > "back in the day" such considerations never > occurred, > it was a different era. I well recall those days when software was free, included in the rental of the mainframe. Until unbundling and the "Program Product" which would rent or sell independently from the machine. IIRC, IBM's H Assembler for OS/360, first NEW product issued under the unbundling agreement, rented for $250/mo. in 1970 - which would be something more significant these days. Those days really ended around 1970. It's particularly annoying in the area of OS's for our classic computers, which remain under copyright to companies which may have gone belly-up, been absorbed and forgotten by their buyers, etc. Getting an old CP/M machine without the OS, and not having a legal source for it, makes 'criminals' of us all. And it's damned unfair! > Everyone from that era has also vanished with the wind, I > know, I've looked. > > So is it fairly safely abandoned? > Another way to look at it - If it was your code, some small > silly thing you wrote, would you care? Now that is a very GOOD question. There are a lot of things I've written that I would NEVER want seen - by ANYONE; guess they're in the class of 'silly'. Most of my serious software belongs to entities (alive or dead), under 'work for hire'. If it were distributed with their blessings, it wouldn't bother me; I've been paid - though never enough :) OTOH, I have several proprietary systems I have written for the use of my own business AND I WOULD EXPRESS SERIOUS ANNOYANCE if they were somehow obtained and distributed. But they have never been shared, and the likelihood of it happening seems small. That said, good fortune. Vern Wright > Dan. > > _________________________________________________________________ From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jan 15 15:18:06 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 21:18:06 +0000 (GMT) Subject: OT-ish, adverts was RE: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <243764.85371.qm@web23403.mail.ird.yahoo.com> No, it's not that it's non-Wintel (hehe). I have problems with Flash on my laptop, especially flash intensive sites - it causes my browser (and sometimes my whole laptop) to slow to a crawl. Whilst a Pentium IIIm (@ 1GHz) is not state-of-the-art, it does everything else perfectly fine. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Thu, 15/1/09, Ethan Dicks wrote: From: Ethan Dicks Subject: Re: OT-ish, adverts was RE: Dr. Dobbs to cease? To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Thursday, 15 January, 2009, 7:56 PM On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 2:30 PM, Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: > I block any and all Flash ads, and any that are animated gifs. I also > block those bloody annoying "pop-up link on words" intellitxt.com ads. > > They're annoying. Don't be annoying. I have to block flash... I'm on a Mac w/Firefox, and it started crashing this week when certain flash bits were put up - I finally got control of my magic yo-yo browser by catching the pop-under opening a Flash ad, and closing the window before it could load. I was about to take my machine off-line to let the browser get to a stable state when I finally found the offender. :-P It must be "my fault" for trying to let Flash run on a non-Wintel box. :-/ It seems every few months, some update gets pushed through that causes Flash to completely hose the browser. Flash is annoying. If you try to sell me something with a Flash ad, I'll probably never see it. -ethan From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Jan 15 16:22:15 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 22:22:15 +0000 Subject: ebay idiots In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <496FB717.2050001@philpem.me.uk> Richard wrote: > So what did they do? Dropped it to $400 opening bid. > > Yeah, right. I've seen similar stupidity... A HP spectrum analyser, 1.8GHz, with HPIB option. No tracking generator option, just the base model with HPIB. Not even a current calibration certificate "but a quick 50MHz to 1GHz sweep with my Marconi signal generator suggests it's accurate". From what I can tell, the going rate for these things is about ?1500, calibrated by the dealer, but without a calibration certificate included. Original buy-it-now price was about ?1700. A bit high, but not excessive. About a week later, the starting bid goes UP to ?2249. You know, I always thought the idea was to REDUCE the starting bid to try and stimulate bidding, not increase it... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 15 16:42:27 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 14:42:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Old Software rights (was content rights) In-Reply-To: References: <496F5B7E.8010901@jbrain.com> <200901151624.n0FGOp2Y077212@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20090115143847.M35821@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 15 Jan 2009, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > But another age old question, who has rights to code developed on the universities equipment? Often the university! > So is it fairly safely abandoned? Absolutely NOT. The fact that YOU couldn't easily find the owner does NOT mean that there isn't one. I'll bet that you didn't even check with county records in all appropriate counties to confirm whether they were dead or alive, and who their heirs were. > Another way to look at it - If it was your code, some small silly thing > you wrote, would you care? And you think that YOU can determine which things I wrote are "some small silly thing"? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 15 17:01:00 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 15:01:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: anyone scans/PDFs of the DEC (VMS) "grey wall" ? In-Reply-To: References: <200805181651.m4IGou3k033025@keith.ezwind.net> <57789.71.139.37.220.1211136409.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20090115150006.W36631@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 18 May 2008, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > >> copyrights dont last forever. stuff from the 70s should be public domain > >> by now. Sorry, Dan, but that still isn't true. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 15 17:09:00 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 15:09:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090115150801.B36631@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 1 Jan 2008, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > I have in my possession a TK-50 tape for the PDP-11 system which > contains none other than OS/2 operating system. > > Many people have claimed this never existed. But I have the tape! > I had done a directory dump of it and can supply it. It is extremely unlikely that ANYBODY here will still be alive when copyright runs out on that. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Jan 15 17:21:35 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 23:21:35 +0000 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <20090115150801.B36631@shell.lmi.net> References: <20090115150801.B36631@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1232061695.6127.68.camel@elric> On Thu, 2009-01-15 at 15:09 -0800, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 1 Jan 2008, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > I have in my possession a TK-50 tape for the PDP-11 system which > > contains none other than OS/2 operating system. > > > > Many people have claimed this never existed. But I have the tape! > > I had done a directory dump of it and can supply it. > > It is extremely unlikely that ANYBODY here will still be alive when > copyright runs out on that. > I have in my possession a 3.5" DD floppy disk with the source code of an OS/2 operating system for 8086 PCs. It wasn't the same OS/2 as IBM had. It predates it by many years, I suspect. Just because it's got a picture of a baby on the label, doesn't mean the can has babies in it. Gordon From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jan 15 17:24:19 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 18:24:19 -0500 Subject: ebay idiots In-Reply-To: <496FB717.2050001@philpem.me.uk> References: <496FB717.2050001@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: > You know, I always thought the idea was to REDUCE the starting bid to try > and stimulate bidding, not increase it... Sometimes this technique actually works for bigger ticket items. Most people have a hard time making a choice and bidding on a big number item, with such short notice, as is with Ebay. They often need to think, ask questions, ask the wife, check the bank, ask the boss, and so forth. And then time runs out, and the item unsold - but the seller might have a bite or two. You people do not know this. You people have no idea the depth of interest the bites have. No idea of any of the interaction between the seller and some of the potential buyers. Those ebay idiots may be laughing all the way to the bank. And there is nothing wrong with it at all. No foul play. Honestly, guys, unless you are eight feet deep in the Ebay surplus selling business - your probably not really qualified to pass judgments. -- Will From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu Jan 15 17:44:29 2009 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 18:44:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: ebay idiots In-Reply-To: References: <496FB717.2050001@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: It's interesting to see people bid up an item for far more than they could purchase it outright, elsewhere. For instance, Ebay item #250354493695, a new box of 2000 punch cards, type 5081. With 2 hours left, the bid is already up to $76.00. These may be purchased from Cardamation for $36.00 Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 15 18:28:38 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 17:28:38 -0700 Subject: ebay idiots In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 15 Jan 2009 18:24:19 -0500. Message-ID: In article , "William Donzelli" writes: > You people do not know this. You people have no idea the depth of > interest the bites have. No idea of any of the interaction between the > seller and some of the potential buyers. Those ebay idiots may be > laughing all the way to the bank. And there is nothing wrong with it > at all. No foul play. Well, in this particular case I doubt the guy is going to be laughing all the way to the bank. Being the terminal/graphics freak that I am, I keep a close eye on HP2648A and other terminals in that line. So I am pretty well informed on what people are willing to pay, based on past sales and based on past listings that have expired with no bids. > Honestly, guys, unless you are eight feet deep in the Ebay surplus > selling business - your probably not really qualified to pass > judgments. I don't consider myself an expert on the surplus business, but I would consider myself pretty well informed on what terminals have been doing. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dgahling at hotmail.com Thu Jan 15 19:00:48 2009 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 20:00:48 -0500 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <1232061695.6127.68.camel@elric> References: <20090115150801.B36631@shell.lmi.net> <1232061695.6127.68.camel@elric> Message-ID: I wish you guys would pay attention, I never said it was os/2 for PDP. I just said that the files are os/2 and its a TK50 > From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 23:21:35 +0000 > Subject: Re: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 > > On Thu, 2009-01-15 at 15:09 -0800, Fred Cisin wrote: > > On Tue, 1 Jan 2008, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > > I have in my possession a TK-50 tape for the PDP-11 system which > > > contains none other than OS/2 operating system. > > > > > > Many people have claimed this never existed. But I have the tape! > > > I had done a directory dump of it and can supply it. > > > > It is extremely unlikely that ANYBODY here will still be alive when > > copyright runs out on that. > > > > I have in my possession a 3.5" DD floppy disk with the source code of an > OS/2 operating system for 8086 PCs. > > It wasn't the same OS/2 as IBM had. It predates it by many years, I > suspect. > > Just because it's got a picture of a baby on the label, doesn't mean the > can has babies in it. > > Gordon > _________________________________________________________________ Keep in touch and up to date with friends and family. Make the connection now. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 15 19:41:38 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 17:41:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <20090115150801.B36631@shell.lmi.net> <1232061695.6127.68.camel@elric> Message-ID: <20090115173532.A36631@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 15 Jan 2009, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > I wish you guys would pay attention, > I never said it was os/2 for PDP. > I just said that the files are os/2 and its a TK50 And we wish that you would not say "RE: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11" if it is your intent that you "never said it was os/2 for PDP". But, disunirregardless of that, intellectual property does not automagically become public domain, no matter how thoroughly it was "abandoned". Legally, In USA and Canada, it would not even count as a "good faith effort" to find the owner unless you also contacted all surviving relatives. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jan 15 19:44:27 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 20:44:27 -0500 Subject: ebay idiots In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Well, in this particular case I doubt the guy is going to be laughing > all the way to the bank. I was more or less using the latter example, with the Spectrum Analyzer. None of us know that whole picture of whatever was going on. > I don't consider myself an expert on the surplus business, but I would > consider myself pretty well informed on what terminals have been doing. OK, so I now I can comment on your example. Yes, we know that the initial prices for the tube were too much, and yes, we also acknowledge that you are the go to guy for terminals around these parts. But, consider the seller. He likely has no idea who you are, or what sort of qualifications you have, when you tell him he is way off the mark. Surplus dealers are often told the item X in their inventory is way too expensive. Yes, sometimes it is, and some honest customer is really just telling the truth. But, for every honest evaluation are one or two cheapskates trying to lowball and walk away with a super deal. I see this *all* the time - for example, almost *every* month I go to the MIT flea, I get one or two different guys trying to convince me that some part (mostly from my vacuum tubes) is worth only a fraction of what I want (the sad thing is that these cheapskates do this in order to save only one or two dollars.). But, I do not know if these guys are tube gurus or penny pinchers. So, I stick with my price until I can do some proper research, or if I get a few different people telling me the same thing. Of course, it turns out that most are pinchers and not gurus. So, do not be alarmed if your advice, as honest as it is, is ignored or taken lightly. Just move along, knowing you did your part. -- Will From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 15 20:11:36 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 19:11:36 -0700 Subject: ebay idiots In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 15 Jan 2009 20:44:27 -0500. Message-ID: In article , "William Donzelli" writes: > Yes, we know that the initial prices for the tube were too much, and > yes, we also acknowledge that you are the go to guy for terminals > around these parts. But, consider the seller. He likely has no idea > who you are, or what sort of qualifications you have, when you tell > him he is way off the mark. All true. When I emailed him, I introduced myself as a collector of serial terminals. On ebay I have written guides for collecting serial terminals. I think I also edited my personal profile there to say that I am a collector of serial terminals. When you browse my buying feedback, you'll see that pretty much all I buy are terminals :-). In this particular case, I told the guy that when he gets tired of trying to sell this particular terminal for a high price to contact me about selling me just the boards and then scrapping the tube and enclosure. (The 2647A has BASIC in ROM, so having the boards is not an unreasonable proposition; I could put the boards into a 264x enclosure that I already have with a reasonable tube and get an "upgrade". All the 264x terminals are essentially interchangeable as far as the power supply, tube and enclosure are concerned; what's different are the board sets and possibly slight variations on the keyboard. For this particular item, the guy doesn't have the keyboard either, and they are custom made for this particular terminal with a funky connector that's not standard either.) > Surplus dealers are often told the item X > in their inventory is way too expensive. Yes, sometimes it is, and > some honest customer is really just telling the truth. But, for every > honest evaluation are one or two cheapskates trying to lowball and > walk away with a super deal. Yep, that's understood. But its ebay. I expect a little haggling as part of the transaction. Of course, ebay has set up the haggling to pretty much work in one direction only: increasing prices. There was one of these 2648As for sale by a surplus dealer based out of Boise. He listed it twice, the second time reducing the price. It was still a little pricey for me. After it didn't sell the second time, I contacted him privately and said "hey, I'll drive up to Boise and pick it up from you on a Saturday for $XX cash." (He had regular business hours on Saturday, so this was not me asking him to open up just for me.) I don't know what he had planned on doing with it after listing it twice and having it fail, but I drove up there and met him in person and put the cash in his palms and took home a nice 2648A. He was a reasonable guy about it. I understand the "surplus dealer" pricing mentality. There's that guy we've talked about before (he keeps changing his ebay handle recently, so I don't know what he's going by now) that is located in upstate NY. You can always tell his listings because they always include the same boiler plate text "This item will look good in your vintage computer collection.". Now that guy does have some rare stuff and he does move items at his price point, so from a business perspective he's not an idiot. However, the Visual Technology terminal that I bought from him was so poorly packaged for shipment that it arrived as a smashed pile of plastic. That tells me that he is still an idiot, particularly since he is obviously trying to appeal to collectors. Nobody collects smashed and damaged goods. Based on that experience, I won't be buying from him again, no matter how rare it is, nor will I recommend him to anyone else and in fact, just the opposite, I will caution people in buying from him. Since I'm a vocal member of the community he's trying to market his goods towards, that's just plain stupid. Again, its the idiocy. There seems to be a recent trend on ebay for places that collect electronics for recycling to have someone who picks out the "old" items for sale on ebay. I don't begrudge them wanting to make a buck off something collectible, but they seem to have nothing but dollar signs in their heads when it comes to pricing. $800 for an HP2621A *without* the keyboard, and the keyboard listed separately for another $200? I watch these items that have "buy it now or best offer" and make a best offer each time the listing expires. They, of course, refuse my best offer because they want an order of magnitude more than what these items have sold for in the past (I save off completed listings to build a price history). But hey, maybe eventually a sucker will come in and buy it, or maybe they'll eventually realize that they're charging more than the market will bear. Serial terminals are a bit odd in that they are not irreplaceable one-of-a-kind units. You can easily replace them with a commodity PC and a serial port running a terminal emulation program. When serial terminals break down in a working vintage computer setup, they don't need to spend $800 on a vintage replacement when $20 from the local used computer store will do the job. Sometimes its different with Tektronix graphics terminals, though, because they *do* have a specialized function and at least for the raster based terminals, there isn't a readily available terminal emulation program for a PC. (The 401x series is such a standard protocol that it *is* readily emulatable by almost any terminal emulator program.) I've bought many terminals from surplus dealers on ebay, most of the time I'm the only bidder. There's a few dealers that have been a joy to buy from and most have been just ordinary transactions. A few are downright clueless and those are the ones I would say are idiots. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Thu Jan 15 20:18:24 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 21:18:24 -0500 Subject: anyone scans/PDFs of the DEC (VMS) "grey wall" ? In-Reply-To: <20090115150006.W36631@shell.lmi.net> References: <200805181651.m4IGou3k033025@keith.ezwind.net> <57789.71.139.37.220.1211136409.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <20090115150006.W36631@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: FWIW, there's a server somewhere on the Internet -- in Australia perhaps? -- that serves up the DEC documentation CD from VMS V5 or V6 or thereabouts. I remember finding it when I was out looking for Infoserver documentation. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin > Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2009 6:01 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: anyone scans/PDFs of the DEC (VMS) "grey wall" ? > > On Sun, 18 May 2008, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > >> copyrights dont last forever. stuff from the 70s should be public > domain > > >> by now. > > Sorry, Dan, > but that still isn't true. From dgahling at hotmail.com Thu Jan 15 21:26:41 2009 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 22:26:41 -0500 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <20090115173532.A36631@shell.lmi.net> References: <20090115150801.B36631@shell.lmi.net> <1232061695.6127.68.camel@elric> <20090115173532.A36631@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: your message is non-sequitur... those two subjects are totally unrelated. wow you people twist stuff totally out of proportion. the OS/2 for PDP had nothing to do with finding the owners or any junk like that. It was a TK50 tape with OS/2 files on it, the TK50 was for the PDP, and from a PDP. whether it *is* OS/2 for the PDP or not, has not been ascertained, and so what if it's just PC OS/2 dumped on a TK50? that is why it was posted that way there were several reasons for that, not the least of which is, I presumed that someone on this list could validate it. but no one ever offered that- instead you post junk like this interlinking two totally disconnected threads for no reason. as for the copyright stuff, yeah living relatives, nice try. If you could find living relatives you could find the person. As I've stated, I've looked for some people for about 20 years now, no idea where they are. Oh yeah, public records, leads up to a certain year, then nothing. I'm gonna hire a PI to find each person at $xK per day? don't think so. I'll take the more useful advice, post portions, with proper credit and notification, and *if* by some miracle someone asks me to take it down, then I'll do that. if I ever get a notice, it'll be one way to find the person, or whoever represents them. in the mean time, I'll be posting the directory contents of that OS/2 PDP TK50 tape so *maybe* someone can identify it properly. because regardless of what it turns out to be, it's a truly weird thing to have... Dan. > Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 17:41:38 -0800 > From: cisin at xenosoft.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 > > On Thu, 15 Jan 2009, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > I wish you guys would pay attention, > > I never said it was os/2 for PDP. > > I just said that the files are os/2 and its a TK50 > > And we wish that you would not say "RE: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11" > if it is your intent that you "never said it was os/2 for PDP". > > But, disunirregardless of that, intellectual property does not > automagically become public domain, no matter how thoroughly it was > "abandoned". > > Legally, In USA and Canada, it would not even count as a "good faith > effort" to find the owner unless you also contacted all surviving > relatives. _________________________________________________________________ From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Jan 15 21:31:51 2009 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 19:31:51 -0800 Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: <496F9511.2080107@gmail.com> References: <200901141506.43879.pat@computer-refuge.org> <1232046209.6127.32.camel@elric> <496F9511.2080107@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Jan 15, 2009, at 11:57 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: >> On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 2:03 PM, Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ >> wrote: >>> On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 15:19 -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> >>>> That and I don't have adequate electric service to the place >>>> without >>>> upgrading the pole. I've got 100A for the house and quonset hut >>>> *combined*. >>> 24kW should be enough for anyone ;-) >>> >>> Of course, if you're in one of these funny 110V countries, that's >>> only >>> 11kW in which case my electric shower will eat most of that. >> Um... yeah... 11kW, not 24kW. I'm in the U.S. > > I thought that main breakers in the US split-phase system were rated > for amps across the full 240V of the main feed? In many cases, the power is 208v 3-phase (that's measured between any two phases). If you look at each phase to ground you see ~110-120v. Single phase 220v is sometimes done by using two of the three phases. You don't get the full voltage but usually equipment doesn't care too much. All of the US DEC gear that uses 3-phase is the 208v 3-phase variety. There's another version of 3-phase that doesn't allow this. I'm not an electrician so I don't know the exact differences. My shop is wired for 208v 3-phase and it make running things like my 2065 & RP06s *much* easier (although not easy on the wallet). :-) TTFN - Guy From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Jan 15 21:55:39 2009 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 19:55:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: ebay idiots In-Reply-To: References: <496FB717.2050001@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Jan 2009, Mike Loewen wrote: > It's interesting to see people bid up an item for far more than they could > purchase it outright, elsewhere. For instance, Ebay item #250354493695, a > new box of 2000 punch cards, type 5081. With 2 hours left, the bid is > already up to $76.00. These may be purchased from Cardamation for $36.00 > I bet the bidder doesn't know that. If they win it, you might want to email them. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 15 22:21:20 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 20:21:20 -0800 Subject: ebay idiots In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <496F9AC0.20226.20CA03BC@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Jan 2009 at 19:55, Gene Buckle wrote: > On Thu, 15 Jan 2009, Mike Loewen wrote: > > > It's interesting to see people bid up an item for far more than they could > > purchase it outright, elsewhere. For instance, Ebay item #250354493695, a > > new box of 2000 punch cards, type 5081. With 2 hours left, the bid is > > already up to $76.00. These may be purchased from Cardamation for $36.00 > > > I bet the bidder doesn't know that. If they win it, you might want to > email them. :) Well now, let's be fair. These are "Genuine Vintage IBM 5081" cards, not your average vanilla-box stuff. Actually, they might be worth that if the printing were, say, language-specific, such as "IBM 1401/1410 Autocoder" or "Univac 1107 SLEUTH". But then, they'd be auctioned of $1 each on eBay... Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 15 22:25:41 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 20:25:41 -0800 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: , <20090115173532.A36631@shell.lmi.net>, Message-ID: <496F9BC5.31229.20CE02BF@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Jan 2009 at 22:26, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > It was a TK50 tape with OS/2 files on it, the TK50 was for the PDP, and from a PDP. > whether it *is* OS/2 for the PDP or not, has not been ascertained, and so what if it's just PC OS/2 dumped on a TK50? I'm confused. Does the tape contain the source code for IBM OS/2? If so, it's pretty clear who holds the rights, isn't it? Just not following the drift of the conversation, sorry for my denseness. Cheers, Chuck From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Jan 16 04:28:39 2009 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 11:28:39 +0100 Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: <4970564F.70306@softjar.se> References: <200901151652.n0FGqAbc084785@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4970564F.70306@softjar.se> Message-ID: <20090116102839.GA21158@Update.UU.SE> On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 10:41:35AM +0100, Johnny Billquist wrote: >> I suppose you mean Johnny Billquist, or is there another big collector I >> don't know about :) > > No. Johnny Eriksson (aka Bygg) is not me. I don't collect PDP-10 stuff. > I collect PDP-8 and PDP-11 stuff (along with some VAXen and other DEC > things). Ah, that name rings a bell, I've probably read something related to stacken with "Bygg" in it. > powered on for close to 20 years now. (The name KATIA is a pun in > Swedish, by the way.) If I remember correctly, KICKI is as well :) Anyway, Stacken had some cool stuff back in the day: http://www.stacken.kth.se/~thn/StoraHallen.html http://www.stacken.kth.se/~thn/FullScale/f2-7.jpg I guess most of this is with Peter and Bygg these days? Does stacken have anything left? Maybe I should ask someone at stacken instead :-P Cheers, Pontus From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Fri Jan 16 04:39:56 2009 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 11:39:56 +0100 Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: <20090116102839.GA21158@Update.UU.SE> References: <200901151652.n0FGqAbc084785@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4970564F.70306@softjar.se> <20090116102839.GA21158@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: > Anyway, Stacken had some cool stuff back in the day: > > http://www.stacken.kth.se/~thn/StoraHallen.html > http://www.stacken.kth.se/~thn/FullScale/f2-7.jpg Wow! In the second picture, somebody must have used muscles! On top of the DataSystem 11/70 (?) is an RL01 or RL02 drive, and *on top of that* an RA8x ! Poor RL drive :-) Great pictures BTW, a "must see" (drool)! - Henk. From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jan 16 04:47:35 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 05:47:35 -0500 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <496F9BC5.31229.20CE02BF@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <20090115173532.A36631@shell.lmi.net>, <496F9BC5.31229.20CE02BF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <497065C7.3050104@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 15 Jan 2009 at 22:26, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > >> It was a TK50 tape with OS/2 files on it, the TK50 was for the PDP, and from a PDP. >> whether it *is* OS/2 for the PDP or not, has not been ascertained, and so what if it's just PC OS/2 dumped on a TK50? > > I'm confused. Does the tape contain the source code for IBM OS/2? > If so, it's pretty clear who holds the rights, isn't it? > > Just not following the drift of the conversation, sorry for my > denseness. I'm reasonably certain that the source code for even OS/2 1.0 wouldn't fit into a TK50. Peace... Sridhar From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri Jan 16 05:32:50 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 11:32:50 +0000 Subject: ebay idiots In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1232105570.6127.91.camel@elric> On Thu, 2009-01-15 at 19:11 -0700, Richard wrote: > > Sometimes its different with Tektronix graphics terminals, though, > because they *do* have a specialized function and at least for the > raster > based terminals, there isn't a readily available terminal emulation > program for a PC. (The 401x series is such a standard protocol that > it > *is* readily emulatable by almost any terminal emulator program.) If you've got a manual that describes these specialised grpahics modes, then it's just a small matter of programming. All you need then is a student with a computer, a rainy weekend, some pizza and a bag of weed. Gordon From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Jan 15 13:42:31 2009 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 14:42:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: OT-ish, adverts was RE: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: <1232047853.6127.39.camel@elric> References: <496CF994.5080104@jwsss.com> <1232047853.6127.39.camel@elric> Message-ID: <200901152008.PAA00988@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Just exactly how well will the age-old advertising methods work >> online, especially with everyone and their brother using things like >> ad-block? > Make your adverts not be annoying. [...] Yes, but... > They're annoying. Don't be annoying. Right. But what's annoying differs, sometimes drastically, from person to person. I, for example, find _any_ piggybacked advertising annoying, even print ads in print magazines. (Provided they stay only mildly annoying, I usually tolerate them, but it's definitely toleration of an annoyance.) I will not tolerate TV unless I can at least mute the ads. And I'm _very_ ad-averse in "online" content (even if not actually online, eg in email), to the point where even things like two-line "free" email footer ads annoy me; I've been known to, when replying to email bearing them, quote them and reply as if I thought the email's author wrote them, as a form of comment on them. Ads are a major fraction of why I don't use the Web to any substantial extent. I wrote Illiad a cheque (after some emailed negotiation) rather than put up with the ads on userfriendly (this was before I discovered xkcd; these days I never even look at userfriendly). When my annoyance tolerance is low I will even do stuff on my computers rather than watch hockey games, because of the bloody annoying ads - and for me ignoring a hockey game really says something. (I don't have a TV, but when visiting my gf on the weekends I sometimes watch hers when there's something I find interesting enough to overcome my general aversion to the medium.) I've had marketing people try to tell me that customers don't mind ads. But - well, for example, I recently saw an ad on a municipal bus trumpeting that some radio station would, for a certain few hours every week, run ad-free; that they thought this worth plugging (despite the irony of an ad trumpeting ad-free-ness) says to me that claims customers don't mind ads are..somewhere on the spectrum between overgeneralization and delusion. Yeah, I know. "Ads pay for content." No they don't - or rather, they do only at the surface level. The truth is more like, the advertiser's customers pay for the content, filtered through (and with a cut skimmed off by) the advertisers' advertising departments. I would _much_ rather pay directly for the content and _not_ pay advertising departments' pounds-of-flesh for damn near everything I buy. (Interestingly enough, the things I buy are almost disjoint from the products being advertised in the ads I see - I've often seen an ad and wished I were in the market for its product so I could avoid that advertiser.) Especially when I'm already nominally paying for the content anyway - eg, a movie ticket, a cable TV subscription, or, to pick an example that's actually closer to reasonable for me, a print magazine. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jlobocki at gmail.com Thu Jan 15 17:31:48 2009 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 17:31:48 -0600 Subject: Old Software rights (was content rights) In-Reply-To: <20090115143847.M35821@shell.lmi.net> References: <496F5B7E.8010901@jbrain.com> <200901151624.n0FGOp2Y077212@keith.ezwind.net> <20090115143847.M35821@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: to chime in, but not fully involve myself in this... A good example is microsoft basic and possibly some of microsofts earliest works. they were developed on university equipment, and bill gates threw a fit and took out a full page ad just to call everyone thieves because of people copying and using it. On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 4:42 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 15 Jan 2009, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > But another age old question, who has rights to code developed on the > universities equipment? > > Often the university! > > > So is it fairly safely abandoned? > > Absolutely NOT. > The fact that YOU couldn't easily find the owner does NOT mean that there > isn't one. I'll bet that you didn't even check with county records in all > appropriate counties to confirm whether they were dead or alive, and who > their heirs were. > > > Another way to look at it - If it was your code, some small silly thing > > you wrote, would you care? > > And you think that YOU can determine which things I wrote are "some small > silly thing"? > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > From jws at jwsss.com Thu Jan 15 18:17:35 2009 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 16:17:35 -0800 Subject: ebay idiots In-Reply-To: References: <496FB717.2050001@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <496FD21F.501@jwsss.com> Mike Loewen wrote: > > Ebay item #250354493695, a new box of 2000 punch cards, type > 5081. I bought an M-1000 Documation punch from him in about 2003. His card punch / reader business imploded with the Fla 2000 debacle and the push by a lot of his money clients to get out of cards just because of the stigma from that. He had a lot of nice Documation readers he sold out at the time. Jim From bqt at softjar.se Fri Jan 16 03:41:35 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 10:41:35 +0100 Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: <200901151652.n0FGqAbc084785@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901151652.n0FGqAbc084785@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4970564F.70306@softjar.se> Pontus wrote: >> > Anyway, as far as I have been able to determine, all the KA-10 systems >> > left in the world are located near Johnny Eriksson, as are all the KI-10 >> > systems. >> > >> > > > I suppose you mean Johnny Billquist, or is there another big collector I > don't know about :) No. Johnny Eriksson (aka Bygg) is not me. I don't collect PDP-10 stuff. I collect PDP-8 and PDP-11 stuff (along with some VAXen and other DEC things). Johnny Eriksson is also in Stockholm, but I didn't know he had taken care of the KA and KI systems. And as far as KI systems goes, Peter Lothberg still have KICKI, so Bygg don't have all of those. Admittedly a technicality since if they aren't stored at the same place, it's still in the same town. So on a "world" scale, they are perhaps all "here". But maybe Rich Alderson meant just "near" as in physically not far from, even if not in his possession. The only KA-10 system I know of, by the way, is KATIA, which was owned by Stacken. I had/have an account on it, but I don't think it's been powered on for close to 20 years now. (The name KATIA is a pun in Swedish, by the way.) >> > Oh. I didn't mention that, did I? The Toad-1 system dissipates about >> > 1500W in operation and plugs into a wall socket. The KL-10, with the >> > original power harness, requires 240V x 60A 3-phase, with a power-on >> > inrush of ~12.4KVA, and a steady-state operational requirement of ~6-9KVA. >> > >> > > > I Wish we could get our DECsystem-20 running again, I think we could get > the power, but space and cooling is more of a concern. It's all a question about money. But yes, it would be nice to get one of them running again. Johnny From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Fri Jan 16 08:40:02 2009 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 09:40:02 -0500 Subject: ebay idiots In-Reply-To: <1232105570.6127.91.camel@elric> Message-ID: <200901161440.n0GEe6Pf009547@keith.ezwind.net> On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 11:32:50 +0000, Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: >If you've got a manual that describes these specialised grpahics modes, >then it's just a small matter of programming. All you need then is a >student with a computer, a rainy weekend, some pizza and a bag of weed. Dont forget a case of Bawls and mabe a second pizza. Bob From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri Jan 16 09:00:48 2009 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 10:00:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: ebay idiots In-Reply-To: <496FD21F.501@jwsss.com> References: <496FB717.2050001@philpem.me.uk> <496FD21F.501@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Jan 2009, jim s wrote: > I bought an M-1000 Documation punch from him in about 2003. His card punch / > reader business imploded with the Fla 2000 debacle and the push by a lot of > his money clients to get out of cards just because of the stigma from that. > He had a lot of nice Documation readers he sold out at the time. A lot of M-1000s and M-600s showed up on Ebay about the same time. I picked up a M-1000L in 2006 and built Brian Knittel's USB interface for it: http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/Documation/ Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Jan 16 09:13:46 2009 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 16:13:46 +0100 Subject: PDP-8 front panels Message-ID: <20090116151346.GA8227@Update.UU.SE> PDP-8s has been used for just about everything and have almost as many different front panels. This is one of the more esoteric ones I've seen: http://www.flickr.com/photos/joachimschwanter/414790437/ Is this a one off custom build? Rebuilt by a PDP-15 lover perhaps? Appearantly it was showcased at VCF Europe in 2008, maybe someone was there and can shed some light on it. Hope this is tech enough for cctech :) Cheers, Pontus. From bob at jfcl.com Fri Jan 16 09:25:17 2009 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 07:25:17 -0800 Subject: DC319 DLARTs and T11s (was T-11 ....) Message-ID: <001a01c977ee$a350e7c0$e9f2b740$@com> >A while ago, Choctaw Bob ]bob099 at centurytel.net] wrote: > > [Schematic of Peter McCollum's hand built T11 SBC] > Schematic here http://www.geocities.com/saipan59/dec/t11.jpg I just got around to looking at this (sorry - been busy :-) and while it's nice and simple, it uses a 6850 UART for the console. It's easy enough to interface the 6850 (or any other modern UART for that matter) to the T11 bus, but it's not going to be even remotely PDP-11 compatible. If you want to have any hope of ever running any real PDP-11 software, you're going to need a DL11/KL11 compatible console interface. For the T11 that means you also want a DC319AA DLART (a "DL-11 compatible UART chip") chip, and after looking around those seem to be far more difficult to come by than the DCT11 CPU chips. Does anybody have a pile of DC319 chips handy, or know where they can be found? Unlike the T11 chips, which can be harvested from a lot of fairly common and not very valuable DEC boards (e.g. RQDX3s), I don't know of any good donor for DLARTs. There are a couple on my FALCON SBC-11/21 board, but I'm hardly willing to take it apart for this project :-) If you can't find a DC319, then the alternative is to build a DL11 compatible interface using a standard UART like the 6402 and a handful of discrete logic. I think the minimum you could get away with would be to implement the DONE and INTERRUPT ENABLE bits (bits 6 and 7) for both the receiver and transmitter CSR, and then to implement the standard vectors at 60/64. Oh, and of course the data registers for the transmitter and receiver. The KL11 also implements a MAINTENANCE bit, a BUSY bit, and a READER ENABLE bit, but a) we have no reader, b) I doubt (I'm hoping) much software ever looks at the BUSY bit, and c) probably nothing uses the MAINTENANCE bit except the diagnostics. ISTR that DEC had an "official" standard written down for exactly what was required of a DL-11 compatible serial interface, but I can't find it anywhere. Bob From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Fri Jan 16 09:27:49 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 10:27:49 -0500 Subject: XKL TOAD References: <200901141506.43879.pat@computer-refuge.org> <1232046209.6127.32.camel@elric> <496F9511.2080107@gmail.com> Message-ID: <18800.42869.433730.371461@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> >>>>> "Guy" == Guy Sotomayor writes: Guy> On Jan 15, 2009, at 11:57 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> I thought that main breakers in the US split-phase system were >> rated for amps across the full 240V of the main feed? Guy> In many cases, the power is 208v 3-phase (that's measured Guy> between any two phases). If you look at each phase to ground Guy> you see ~110-120v. Right, that's called 120/208 Y (or "wye"). You have three phase wires plus a neutral. So if phase to neutral is 120 volts nominal, then phase to phase is 2 x 120 / cos (30degrees) which is 208 volts. Guy> Single phase 220v is sometimes done by using Guy> two of the three phases. You don't get the full voltage but Guy> usually equipment doesn't care too much. No, that's not how it is done. In the USA, homes don't get 3 phase power. Instead, the transformer feeding the house has a 240 volt secondary which is center-tapped where the center is grounded (neutral). So you have two "hot" wires 180 degrees out of phase, 240 volts between them and 120 volts between each and neutral. And it uses only one transformer, and draws on only one phase from the high voltage line along the road. In fact, away from densely populated areas you will often see just one wire on top of the pole, whic is one of the three high voltage phases. Guy> All of the US DEC gear that uses 3-phase is the 208v 3-phase Guy> variety. There's another version of 3-phase that doesn't allow Guy> this. I'm not an electrician so I don't know the exact Guy> differences. There are lots of choices. If you want to be able to power 120 volt appliances and need 3 phase power, then 120/208 Y connected is the logical approach. If you need 3 phase but no 1 phase (say, for motors) then 240 volt delta (no neutral, three phase lines, 240 volts between phases) works well. Need more power? Use 480 instead of 240. I've seen references to 277/480 Y, so you have 480 phase to phase for motors and single phase stuff (like lights) get 277. That doesn't show up in homes but it sounds like you might find it in factories. A different scheme for getting 120 in a three phase setting that I've seen mentioned in books uses a three-phase transformer wired delta fashion, 240 volts between phases, with one of the three center-tapped and the center grounded. So from those wires you can get 120 volt (phase to neutral). There are probably other schemes, especially in power hungry factories... paul From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Jan 16 09:35:00 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 07:35:00 -0800 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <497065C7.3050104@gmail.com> References: , <20090115173532.A36631@shell.lmi.net>, <496F9BC5.31229.20CE02BF@cclist.sydex.com> <497065C7.3050104@gmail.com> Message-ID: At 5:47 AM -0500 1/16/09, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >Chuck Guzis wrote: >>On 15 Jan 2009 at 22:26, Dan Gahlinger wrote: >> >>>It was a TK50 tape with OS/2 files on it, the TK50 was for the >>>PDP, and from a PDP. >>>whether it *is* OS/2 for the PDP or not, has not been ascertained, >>>and so what if it's just PC OS/2 dumped on a TK50? >> >>I'm confused. Does the tape contain the source code for IBM OS/2? >>If so, it's pretty clear who holds the rights, isn't it? >> >>Just not following the drift of the conversation, sorry for my denseness. > >I'm reasonably certain that the source code for even OS/2 1.0 >wouldn't fit into a TK50. > >Peace... Sridhar One thing I'd like to know is why this thread was resurrected after just over a year. On that note, I believe the consensus a year ago was that someone probably backed up their OS/2 install onto a TK50. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Fri Jan 16 09:37:20 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 10:37:20 -0500 Subject: Old Software rights (was content rights) References: <496F5B7E.8010901@jbrain.com> <200901151624.n0FGOp2Y077212@keith.ezwind.net> <20090115143847.M35821@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <18800.43440.574128.594432@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> >>>>> "joe" == joe lobocki writes: joe> to chime in, but not fully involve myself in this... A good joe> example is microsoft basic and possibly some of microsofts joe> earliest works. they were developed on university equipment, and joe> bill gates threw a fit and took out a full page ad just to call joe> everyone thieves because of people copying and using it. I can understand that. It would be his property no matter where developed, unless it was "work for hire" or explicitly assigned to the university by an assignment of copyright contract. paul From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Fri Jan 16 09:52:49 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 13:52:49 -0200 Subject: thinking of selling my PDP-11/23+ References: <20090114170647.o03wbwh175wck4oo@webmail2.centurytel.net> Message-ID: <3ebe01c977f2$8e4223e0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> > Now that I have a working PDP-11/23+ system, I find (as I should have > known from many similar projects) that the "fun" was really in > accumulating the pieces and getting it working. I don't really have > anything I want to DO with it (although I suppose that is the whole point > of classic computing :) but I have run ADVENT. Hahahahaha, just the same as me :) BTW, I'm selling a huge lot of brazilian-made computers. Anyone wanting to bid in? I can consolidate shipping and send everything at once. From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Fri Jan 16 09:56:05 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 10:56:05 -0500 Subject: DC319 DLARTs and T11s (was T-11 ....) References: <001a01c977ee$a350e7c0$e9f2b740$@com> Message-ID: <18800.44565.982281.178742@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> >>>>> "Bob" == Bob Armstrong writes: Bob> If you can't find a DC319, then the alternative is to build a Bob> DL11 compatible interface using a standard UART like the 6402 Bob> and a handful of discrete logic. I think the minimum you could Bob> get away with would be to implement the DONE and INTERRUPT Bob> ENABLE bits (bits 6 and 7) for both the receiver and transmitter Bob> CSR, and then to implement the standard vectors at 60/64. Oh, Bob> and of course the data registers for the transmitter and Bob> receiver. Bob> The KL11 also implements a MAINTENANCE bit, a BUSY bit, and a Bob> READER ENABLE bit, but a) we have no reader, b) I doubt (I'm Bob> hoping) much software ever looks at the BUSY bit, and c) Bob> probably nothing uses the MAINTENANCE bit except the Bob> diagnostics. Bob> ISTR that DEC had an "official" standard written down for Bob> exactly what was required of a DL-11 compatible serial Bob> interface, but I can't find it anywhere. The approach you described should do the job. If all you need is compatibility with console boot drivers, you could leave off the interrupt machinery since those things tend to run in polled mode. But for an OS you'd need IE and the interrupt. And if you want to ignore inbound errors, you need only implement the low byte of the receive data register. This would be a nice small VHDL exercise... paul From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Jan 16 10:13:46 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 11:13:46 -0500 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <497065C7.3050104@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200901161113.46086.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 16 January 2009, Zane H. Healy wrote: > One thing I'd like to know is why this thread was resurrected after > just over a year. I suspect that Fred was trying to be funny. I thought it was funny, but other people seem to have gotten bent out of shape about it. I'm not sure why his mail got any replies, other than the, uh, environment here. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From dgahling at hotmail.com Fri Jan 16 10:43:08 2009 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 11:43:08 -0500 Subject: thinking of selling my PDP-11/23+ In-Reply-To: <3ebe01c977f2$8e4223e0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> References: <20090114170647.o03wbwh175wck4oo@webmail2.centurytel.net> <3ebe01c977f2$8e4223e0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> Message-ID: what is it about completing a classic computing project that does that? I've completed two major projects, and find myself lacking, constantly thinking now what? I have a dozen vax3100/76 systems I could test, but I can't get motivated about it. I keep feeling that if I finish that work, I'll be left with nothing. feeling empty. Same goes for all the old code I have, if I restore it and post it, then what? how does it's longevity get ensured? will anyone actually care? and if I finish it all, what will I putter on for enjoyment? the fun seems to not come from completing a classic computing project, but the doing, I guess our wives will never understand that ;) Dan. > From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 13:52:49 -0200 > CC: > Subject: Re: thinking of selling my PDP-11/23+ > > > Now that I have a working PDP-11/23+ system, I find (as I should have > > known from many similar projects) that the "fun" was really in > > accumulating the pieces and getting it working. I don't really have > > anything I want to DO with it (although I suppose that is the whole point > > of classic computing :) but I have run ADVENT. > > Hahahahaha, just the same as me :) > > BTW, I'm selling a huge lot of brazilian-made computers. Anyone wanting > to bid in? I can consolidate shipping and send everything at once. > > > _________________________________________________________________ From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 16 11:05:15 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 12:05:15 -0500 Subject: what harddisk is this? In-Reply-To: <200901151749.n0FHn9sr086674@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200901151749.n0FHn9sr086674@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: Ahh, I thought it looked familiar! I really need to carve out some space to fire up the System/36 (5360) I got last summer. -Dave On Jan 15, 2009, at 12:49 PM, Bob Bradlee wrote: > It is the 21ED interfaced used on the IBM System 36 and 38's > The origional drives were 30mb but there was a later 60mb version. > I dont know of anything else that used them. > > Bob > > > On Thu, 15 Jan 2009 18:33:09 +0100, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > >> Oliver Lehmann wrote: > >>> http://files.pofo.de/harddisk/ >>> > >> Ok, got two new pics - what interface is this? > >> http://files.pofo.de/harddisk/ibm.jpg >> http://files.pofo.de/harddisk/ibm1.jpg > >> -- >> Oliver Lehmann >> http://www.pofo.de/ >> http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ > > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Fri Jan 16 11:04:11 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 15:04:11 -0200 Subject: thinking of selling my PDP-11/23+ References: <20090114170647.o03wbwh175wck4oo@webmail2.centurytel.net><3ebe01c977f2$8e4223e0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> Message-ID: <3f8d01c977fc$abe75be0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> >the fun seems to not come from completing a classic computing project, but >the doing, The journey is the reward. My wife never seems to understand that. Lucky me I'm always the last word here at my home: Yes M'am Pu1BZZ Alexandre :) From slawmaster at gmail.com Fri Jan 16 11:08:21 2009 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 12:08:21 -0500 Subject: ebay idiots In-Reply-To: <200901161440.n0GEe6Pf009547@keith.ezwind.net> References: <1232105570.6127.91.camel@elric> <200901161440.n0GEe6Pf009547@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <7d3530220901160908q605ec770p19a2a4cd56fa28a@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 9:40 AM, Bob Bradlee wrote: > On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 11:32:50 +0000, Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: > >>If you've got a manual that describes these specialised grpahics modes, >>then it's just a small matter of programming. All you need then is a >>student with a computer, a rainy weekend, some pizza and a bag of weed. > > Dont forget a case of Bawls and mabe a second pizza. > > Bob I didn't think anyone actually drank Bawls when doing programming... always struck me as more a 16 year-old's "HEY GRAB A BAWLS AND LET'S PLAY COUNTERSTRIKE DOOD" drink. Personally, I prefer beer or Coke. John -- "I've tried programming Ruby on Rails, following TechCrunch in my RSS reader, and drinking absinthe. It doesn't work. I'm going back to C, Hunter S. Thompson, and cheap whiskey." -- Ted Dziuba From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Jan 16 11:13:22 2009 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 12:13:22 -0500 Subject: thinking of selling my PDP-11/23+ In-Reply-To: References: <20090114170647.o03wbwh175wck4oo@webmail2.centurytel.net> <3ebe01c977f2$8e4223e0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> Message-ID: <4970C032.1070809@mdrconsult.com> Dan Gahlinger wrote: > what is it about completing a classic computing project that does that? > I've completed two major projects, and find myself lacking, > constantly thinking now what? I don't think that's true for everyone in the hobby, but it certainly is for me. I experience the same thinking in my job. Fortunately, as a consultant, I build it or fix it and move on, leaving the day-to-day drudge to somebody else. :) Every job I've ever had was similar. When I made jewelry, I loved my work, and apparently so did my customers, but the only piece that I wore was the same plain silver earring that's been in my ear since '92 or so. People who buy jigsaw puzzles almost never frame their work. The fun is in solving the puzzles and seeing a result. > the fun seems to not come from completing a classic computing project, but the doing, > > I guess our wives will never understand that ;) Our wives understand that perfectly. They just expect us to clean up our puzzles when we're done. :) Doc From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Fri Jan 16 12:02:17 2009 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 13:02:17 -0500 Subject: ebay idiots In-Reply-To: <7d3530220901160908q605ec770p19a2a4cd56fa28a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200901161802.n0GI2Op1031206@keith.ezwind.net> On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 12:08:21 -0500, John Floren wrote: >On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 9:40 AM, Bob Bradlee wrote: >> On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 11:32:50 +0000, Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: >> >>>If you've got a manual that describes these specialised grpahics modes, >>>then it's just a small matter of programming. All you need then is a >>>student with a computer, a rainy weekend, some pizza and a bag of weed. >> >> Dont forget a case of Bawls and mabe a second pizza. >> >> Bob >I didn't think anyone actually drank Bawls when doing programming... >always struck me as more a 16 year-old's "HEY GRAB A BAWLS AND LET'S >PLAY COUNTERSTRIKE DOOD" drink. Personally, I prefer beer or Coke. >John >-- >"I've tried programming Ruby on Rails, following TechCrunch in my RSS >reader, and drinking absinthe. It doesn't work. I'm going back to C, >Hunter S. Thompson, and cheap whiskey." -- Ted Dziuba As for Bowls, you may be correct, I have never tasted the stuff. I do know they sell it by the case at Microcenter, and the current generation like it. Programmers choose their own lubricants. I have always found Hunter S. Thompson's choice tends to lead to circular logic. I switch between a Ginsing Green Tea mix and a dark local brewed Rootbeer myself ... The problem is, some of the early graphic terminals were mated to their applications at a very low level. A lot of assumptions were made in the low level communications with the "terminal smarts". It was common for service people to come across compatibility issues swapping out monitors..... oh! if you want to be able to run ...... then you have to have ....... roms installed or it will never work right! It is more than a weekends task, even with, as the origional poster commented, "a bag of weed". We are drifting far from "ebay idiots". Back under my rock ..... The other Bob From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jan 16 12:14:27 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 10:14:27 -0800 Subject: XKL TOAD Message-ID: <4970CE83.9040606@bitsavers.org> > Actually, he's gotten pretty far on it. Good to hear he's had time to work on it again. He hadn't for quite a while with everything that's been going on. I had forgotten to ask him about it when I talked to him in Dec. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jan 16 12:36:04 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 10:36:04 -0800 Subject: ecycling Message-ID: <4970D394.20601@bitsavers.org> > There seems to be a recent trend on ebay for places that collect > electronics for recycling to have someone who picks out the "old" items > for sale on ebay. They have been cherry picking the incoming stuff for years. The big one around here is Computer Recycling Center, next to Weird Stuff (who is in the same biz). Most modern PC stuff they get goes to schools, they eBay the stuff they can get money from, and put the dregs up for sale on Saturday mornings. Feeding frenzy at 9:00 AM when they open. I wander by every once and a while to pick up cheap PCI cards, or the odd bit of old software no one else wants. Most of the store front junk stores around here disappeared as manufacturing left the valley, and the bottom feeders from bankruptcies go directly to eBay now with no retail presence. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jan 16 13:14:53 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 11:14:53 -0800 Subject: Novell 68K file server Message-ID: <4970DCAD.8090108@bitsavers.org> Here are some pics of a Novell file server circa 1987. http://bitsavers.org/pdf/novell/68k_file_server Was wondering if anyone had documentation or software for this. I had some of the external dual drive scsi boxes for these at one point. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jan 16 13:47:35 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 11:47:35 -0800 Subject: A few newb/background questions about the XKL TOAD Message-ID: <4970E457.5000404@bitsavers.org> > 4. Do the freeware copies of TOPS-20 floating around TOPS-20 is not "freeware". There is nothing in the software distributions that claims it is so. XKL bought the rights when DEC got out of the 36-bit business. Not asserting your rights to something is quite different from an assertion that it is "freeware". This is also one of those rocks you really don't want to turn over.. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jan 16 15:09:28 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 13:09:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <200901161113.46086.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <497065C7.3050104@gmail.com> <200901161113.46086.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <20090116130138.G57185@shell.lmi.net> > On Friday 16 January 2009, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > One thing I'd like to know is why this thread was resurrected after > > just over a year. On Fri, 16 Jan 2009, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > I suspect that Fred was trying to be funny. I thought it was funny, but > other people seem to have gotten bent out of shape about it. I'm not > sure why his mail got any replies, other than the, uh, environment > here. Yes, it was my fault. I thought that it was an ideal example of ownership of intellectual property not being an issue of possession nor lack of knowledge of the whereabouts of the author in the "abandonware" thread. Sorry, -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Jan 16 15:13:26 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 16:13:26 -0500 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200901161613.27399.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 14 January 2009 11:50:37 am Dan Gahlinger wrote: > It's a fascinating discussion, especially with "everything" going this way. > Just exactly how well will the age-old advertising methods work online, > especially with everyone and their brother using things like ad-block? > > I'm not sure where it will end up, I suspect it's an indication of a deeper > issue. > > Off-topic but perhaps related is TV, look at what's happening with that, > the traditional TV is almost dead. I'm not sure, but my feeling is that the > new US plans to kill analog TV may completely kill TV. If it's not going to kill it here, it's going to at least injure it seriously... I myself could care less in terms of most of the over-the-air stuff we get coming in here. With a set of rabbit ears, I've not considered either cable or a dish to be a worthwhile investment in recent years, too much of a time-sink, and I've got better things to do with what limited funds I have available. Other members of the household feel differently about it, but where that ends up remains to be seen since what we're looking at is a bit more than just hooking up a converter box, it seems like it's going to need an antenna as well. > Why have TV when you can stream anything you want any time you want from > the internet? Where is the place for it, and advertising when you can > download shows for free (or "free") or close to it? Yep, I have some music streaming as I type this, and just got done watching some music videos. > Microsoft (and others) plans of a TV set-top box for internet access > continually fail, and yet, in some ways, that's exactly where we're going, > the computer becomes the entertainment center. Their plans will definitely fail. Same thing with operating systems, too. I spent an absurd amount of time yesterday on a service call because of an attempt at a system restore wasn't working, and although the guy was receptive to the idea of linux I couldn't go there in that context. All this because of m$ and their worries about piracy. > a friend of mine has dumped TV (sat/cable, etc), they setup a NAS device > and stream everything from online to their systems, and their TV's have > rca/coax/digital connectors. with 2 1TB drives of media, and various > systems with NFS mounts for other media. I know of a number of folks with such setups. > There's no advertising in there at all, no revenue stream, and no on-going > cost for him to operate (except electricity). surprisingly perhaps, the > reduction in electricity usage is exactly why he did it, he turned off 3 > systems in place of the one NAS, which uses 1/3rd power of any of those > systems alone. Just so. > Someone once predicted the death of "tv" in the early 21st century, it > feels like we're on the cusp at least. Yes. > however, my question is, isn't TV a major source of advertising income, > sales, and revenues? if everything goes this way, what happens to the > market then? > > As i said, there's a deeper issue lurking below the surface. There are going to be some major upheavals in the way that business is done. The Cluetrain Manifesto (available for free online) points in some interesting directions. Government trying to maintain the status quo and the sheer size of some large corporations is only going to prolong things, but it *will* change and I suspect that we'll be seeing a lot of those changes happening a lot sooner than most suspect. We're drifting pretty far off the topic of the list here, though. If anybody else wants to take up some of this stuff feel free to join me in my "tech chat" group on yahoo... > > From: IanK at vulcan.com > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 08:09:40 -0800 > > Subject: RE: Dr. Dobbs to cease? > > > > >-----Original Message----- > > >From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > > >bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jim s > > >Sent: Tuesday, January 13, 2009 12:29 PM > > >To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > >Subject: Re: Dr. Dobbs to cease? > > > > > > > > > > > >Richard wrote: > > > > > >Quoted Ian: > > > > > > > > >I believe that there are two different issues here. Moderation of a > > >forum of which the the membership of is open to anyone is different than > > >the model where the writers and participants are chosen and there is an > > >editor / writer relationship in place. > > > > > >It requires some business model or resource to support the latter, since > > >there is usually going to be a dedicated group if there is to be any > > >quality to it, in order for the enterprise to function. > > > > > >Selling magazines used to do that. I do not believe that there is the > > >same resource to support these with online models. It remains to be > > >seen if the old publishing companies with magazines and an online > > >presence can survive, or if other ones will. Certainly the treatment of > > >the DDJ readership was not handled very well. I would think that there > > >would have been a cost effective model which would have allowed for all > > >online publishing and getting rid of the cost of the physical magazine > > >as a step rather than effectively erasing it the way they did. > > > > > >Having a group like this with minimum moderation and one which is > > >heavily edited like the comp group mentioned is not going to produce the > > >same results. > > > > In discussions I've had with librarians regarding printed vs. online > > journals, I've been told that the costs of producing the physical > > artifact are a small fraction of the overall cost. The cost of that > > staff predominates. However, advertising is an important revenue flow. > > Once upon a time, I started receiving a magazine to which I had not > > subscribed. When I asked why, the publisher replied that they were > > trying to boost their circulation numbers so they could increase their > > advertising rates. They made more money by giving away their product! > > (After a while, I realized why they had to give it away and asked them to > > stop sending it to me, free or not.) -- Ian > > _________________________________________________________________ > Keep in touch and up to date with friends and family. Make the connection > now. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/ -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Jan 16 15:50:34 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 16:50:34 -0500 Subject: OT-ish, adverts was RE: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: <1232047853.6127.39.camel@elric> References: <1232047853.6127.39.camel@elric> Message-ID: <200901161650.34764.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 15 January 2009 02:30:53 pm Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: > On Wed, 2009-01-14 at 11:50 -0500, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > It's a fascinating discussion, especially with "everything" going this > > way. Just exactly how well will the age-old advertising methods work > > online, especially with everyone and their brother using things like > > ad-block? > > Make your adverts not be annoying. I feel bad about adblocking *every > single sidebar ad* on qrz.com, but if they weren't all flickering > animated gifs that strobe red and green I would tolerate them. > > I block any and all Flash ads, and any that are animated gifs. I also > block those bloody annoying "pop-up link on words" intellitxt.com ads. > > They're annoying. Don't be annoying. > > Gordon Just so. I wonder if they'll ever get a clue? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From scheefj at netscape.net Fri Jan 16 17:00:23 2009 From: scheefj at netscape.net (Jim Scheef) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 18:00:23 -0500 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <497065C7.3050104@gmail.com> References: , <20090115173532.A36631@shell.lmi.net>, <496F9BC5.31229.20CE02BF@cclist.sydex.com> <497065C7.3050104@gmail.com> Message-ID: <49711187.9020802@netscape.net> Would someone with a working TK50 please get this tape and dump it out so we can but this to bed? Jim Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 15 Jan 2009 at 22:26, Dan Gahlinger wrote: >> >>> It was a TK50 tape with OS/2 files on it, the TK50 was for the PDP, >>> and from a PDP. >>> whether it *is* OS/2 for the PDP or not, has not been ascertained, >>> and so what if it's just PC OS/2 dumped on a TK50? >> >> I'm confused. Does the tape contain the source code for IBM OS/2? If >> so, it's pretty clear who holds the rights, isn't it? >> >> Just not following the drift of the conversation, sorry for my denseness. > > I'm reasonably certain that the source code for even OS/2 1.0 wouldn't > fit into a TK50. > > Peace... Sridhar From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Jan 16 17:05:26 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 18:05:26 -0500 Subject: offer - OS/2 for the PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <49711187.9020802@netscape.net> References: <497065C7.3050104@gmail.com> <49711187.9020802@netscape.net> Message-ID: <200901161805.27083.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 16 January 2009, Jim Scheef wrote: > Would someone with a working TK50 please get this tape and dump it > out so we can but this to bed? Or better yet, maybe the thread could just die. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri Jan 16 20:25:31 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 02:25:31 +0000 Subject: thinking of selling my PDP-11/23+ In-Reply-To: <3f8d01c977fc$abe75be0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> References: <20090114170647.o03wbwh175wck4oo@webmail2.centurytel.net> <3ebe01c977f2$8e4223e0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> <3f8d01c977fc$abe75be0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> Message-ID: <1232159131.6127.103.camel@elric> On Fri, 2009-01-16 at 15:04 -0200, Alexandre Souza wrote: > Pu1BZZ Alexandre :) Wait, wait, you're another radio amateur? Not surprised there's a crossover with classic computing. Wonder who else? Fred van Kempen was, but I haven't seen nor heard anything from him for at least two years. Gordon From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jan 16 20:44:55 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 18:44:55 -0800 Subject: hams on classiccmp Message-ID: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> > Wonder who else? probably lots.. Eric Smith just got his licence. I know Don North is, as am I (wb9ggj) From chris at mainecoon.com Fri Jan 16 21:00:42 2009 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 19:00:42 -0800 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> References: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <497149DA.2000308@mainecoon.com> Al Kossow wrote: >> Wonder who else? > > probably lots.. > > Eric Smith just got his licence. > I know Don North is, as am I (wb9ggj) I'm AF6AP, at least on the amateur side. Kilovolts in ceramic and glass can be a lot of fun when it's not trying to kill you. -- Chris Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP/AFA9KC http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." From bob_lafleur at technologist.com Fri Jan 16 21:08:34 2009 From: bob_lafleur at technologist.com (Bob Lafleur) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 22:08:34 -0500 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> References: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <06cb01c97850$e3597fa0$aa0c7ee0$@com> > Wonder who else? I'm not an active discussioner on the list, but have been a lurker for many years. My call is NQ1C. From brain at jbrain.com Fri Jan 16 21:11:02 2009 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 21:11:02 -0600 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> References: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <49714C46.5010400@jbrain.com> Al Kossow wrote: > > Wonder who else? > > probably lots.. > > Eric Smith just got his licence. > I know Don North is, as am I (wb9ggj) KB8WYW, though I don't get online much. From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Jan 16 21:24:15 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 22:24:15 -0500 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> References: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <200901162224.15658.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 16 January 2009, Al Kossow wrote: > > Wonder who else? > > probably lots.. > > Eric Smith just got his licence. > I know Don North is, as am I (wb9ggj) Same here, but I haven't really had enough time to do anything with that stuff in quite a while, with everything else I have going on. Pat (KD9VAX) -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From tpeters at mixcom.com Fri Jan 16 21:56:09 2009 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 21:56:09 -0600 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <200901162224.15658.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20090116215533.022164f8@localhost> At 10:24 PM 1/16/2009 -0500, you wrote: >On Friday 16 January 2009, Al Kossow wrote: > > > Wonder who else? > > > > probably lots.. > > > > Eric Smith just got his licence. > > I know Don North is, as am I (wb9ggj) > >Same here, but I haven't really had enough time to do anything with that >stuff in quite a while, with everything else I have going on. > >Pat (KD9VAX) KD9VAX, what a great call for a classic computer guy. 73 de N9QQB ----- 535. [Love] What woman says to fond lover should be written on air or the swift water. --Catullus (B.C. 84?-54?) Carmina. LXX 3. --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Jan 16 22:03:42 2009 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 22:03:42 -0600 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> References: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <51ea77730901162003o207ae9cdwc5d898a5e0e64efb@mail.gmail.com> >> Wonder who else? KB9SXO here. Got my Tech license years ago at one of those cram-session deals through the local HAM club. I've got a 2M/440 Yaesu in the car that gets turned on maybe once a month, not including when it gets tuned to NOAA Weather Radio. It is fun to play with the local repeaters and their phone patches though :) I also enjoy DX listening when I can manage to pull in a signal with my Slinky antenna. No yard for a long wire here... -- jht From james at jdfogg.com Fri Jan 16 22:07:47 2009 From: james at jdfogg.com (james) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 23:07:47 -0500 Subject: hams on classiccmp Message-ID: <49715993.74.d18.995@jdfogg.com> > > Wonder who else? > > probably lots.. > > Eric Smith just got his licence. > I know Don North is, as am I (wb9ggj) I'm former N1QCO, Presently KB1Qff (that needs to change, I'll be using the vanity call program). I spent a lot of time and money to get on HF this time around and was sorely disappointed to find it a lot like CB radio. And it's not the nubies making it a chore to listen. From innfoclassics at gmail.com Fri Jan 16 22:09:09 2009 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 20:09:09 -0800 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> References: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 6:44 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> Wonder who else? KE7ZFG - New ham, January 6, 2009. I should have done this 40 years ago when I had much more time for radio. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From james at jdfogg.com Fri Jan 16 22:15:34 2009 From: james at jdfogg.com (james) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 23:15:34 -0500 Subject: Novell 68K file server Message-ID: <49715b66.3dc.bfc.6997@jdfogg.com> > Here are some pics of a Novell file server circa 1987. > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/novell/68k_file_server > > Was wondering if anyone had documentation or software for > this. I had some of the external dual drive scsi boxes for > these at one point. This reminds me of a similar oddity I used to support years ago. 3Com made a server, and an OS called 3+ Open. As I recall, it was an OS/2 - LAN Manager derivative. From db at db.net Fri Jan 16 22:26:10 2009 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 23:26:10 -0500 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <49715993.74.d18.995@jdfogg.com> References: <49715993.74.d18.995@jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <20090117042610.GA81375@night.db.net> On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 11:07:47PM -0500, james wrote: > > > Wonder who else? > > ... > I spent a lot of time and money to get on HF this time > around and was sorely disappointed to find it a lot like CB > radio. And it's not the nubies making it a chore to listen. Try psk31. Much more fun. - 73 Diane VA3DB -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From steve at radiorobots.com Fri Jan 16 22:31:58 2009 From: steve at radiorobots.com (steve stutman) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 23:31:58 -0500 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: References: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <49715F3E.30203@radiorobots.com> Paxton Hoag wrote: > On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 6:44 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > >>> Wonder who else? >>> > > KE7ZFG - New ham, January 6, 2009. I should have done this 40 years > ago when I had much more time for radio. > > Paxton > > KL7JT Did it 42 years ago, when I did have time for radio. hihi From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Jan 16 22:46:57 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 20:46:57 -0800 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <49715F3E.30203@radiorobots.com> References: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> , <49715F3E.30203@radiorobots.com> Message-ID: I was a ham nearly four decades ago. I'd thought about getting back into it, but a lot of the fascination I had then, getting cranky old equipment (all I could afford) to work, is the fascination I have now for getting cranky old computer equipment to work. I just got a VAX-11/780-5 up with VMS on TCP/IP.... -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of steve stutman [steve at radiorobots.com] Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 8:31 PM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: hams on classiccmp Paxton Hoag wrote: > On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 6:44 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > >>> Wonder who else? >>> > > KE7ZFG - New ham, January 6, 2009. I should have done this 40 years > ago when I had much more time for radio. > > Paxton > > KL7JT Did it 42 years ago, when I did have time for radio. hihi From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Fri Jan 16 22:49:55 2009 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 20:49:55 -0800 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <49715F3E.30203@radiorobots.com> References: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> <49715F3E.30203@radiorobots.com> Message-ID: <49716373.4090407@sbcglobal.net> steve stutman wrote: > Paxton Hoag wrote: >> On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 6:44 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> >>>> Wonder who else? > KL7JT > > Did it 42 years ago, when I did have time for radio. hihi > I'm KJ6VL. Looks like there are quite a few hams here. Bob From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Fri Jan 16 23:13:46 2009 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko at juno.com) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 05:13:46 GMT Subject: Novell 68K file server Message-ID: <20090116.211346.1739.0@webmail10.vgs.untd.com> -- "james" wrote: >> Here are some pics of a Novell file server circa 1987. >> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/novell/68k_file_server >> >> Was wondering if anyone had documentation or software for >> this. I had some of the external dual drive scsi boxes for >> these at one point. > > >This reminds me of a similar oddity I used to support years >ago. 3Com made a server, and an OS called 3+ Open. As I >recall, it was an OS/2 - LAN Manager derivative. Ah yes, the era of the 3Server is forever seared into my brain; my first *real* job in the computer business involved the care and feeding of several generations of these beasties. The Original 3Server (about the same vintage as the Novell unit pictured earlier) used an 80188 and a heavily modified version of MS-DOS. It used an early SCSI implementation, which was closer to SASI, to attach MFM disks and QIC tapes via Adaptec bridge boards. Because there were neither video nor ISA bus, there was more room for contiguous DOS memory; something over 700k, which pertty cool at the time. They originally were equipped with 30MB drives, but then the 3Server70 had an 80Mb (unformatted) unit by Vertex. These early boxes had the (optional) QIC tape in an external box; the 3Server3 introduced in 1986 (IIRC) had disk and tape in one box; in addition the 3Server3 could be interfaced with appletalk, and also sported the then-new LIM memory used to speed up the operating system. These 80188 systems all used either 3+Share or EtherSeries NOS's for basic drive sharing. IN addition, 3+Mail, 3+Route (for routing e-mail between sites), 3+Backup and other network applications were supported under the 3+Share NOS (in <1Mb RAM). These were followed by the 3S400 & 3S500 machines, which are not interesing as they are little more than stock ISA 80386 machines running at 16MHz. These guys could run 3+Share, or 3+Open (a.k.a. OS/2 LanMan as pointed out above). ISTR that they added TCP/IP late in that products life. Then Novell took over the world and all of the above 'stuff' died in obscurity. It was at this point where I learned in my life that I had a knack for picking losers. I need a stiff drink now . . . . ____________________________________________________________ Wasting money? Stop, now. Click here for top online coupon websites. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw3g7mjTpd5rxcCErbhdwKhlKnlk8EtDpjxtBY6Z0UQK5hj8i/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jan 16 23:15:05 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 00:15:05 -0500 Subject: Hams (was Re: thinking of selling my PDP-11/23+) Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 9:25 PM, Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: > On Fri, 2009-01-16 at 15:04 -0200, Alexandre Souza wrote: > >> Pu1BZZ Alexandre :) > > Wait, wait, you're another radio amateur? Not surprised there's a > crossover with classic computing. Wonder who else? N8TVD Technician _with_ code (not that it matters anymore) -ethan From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Jan 16 23:16:10 2009 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 21:16:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> References: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 16 Jan 2009, Al Kossow wrote: >> Wonder who else? > > probably lots.. > 73, de kc7afe. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Fri Jan 16 23:20:54 2009 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko at juno.com) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 05:20:54 GMT Subject: hams on classiccmp Message-ID: <20090116.212054.1739.1@webmail10.vgs.untd.com> -- steve stutman wrote: Paxton Hoag wrote: > On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 6:44 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > >>> Wonder who else? >>> > > KE7ZFG - New ham, January 6, 2009. I should have done this 40 years > ago when I had much more time for radio. > > Paxton > > >KL7JT > >Did it 42 years ago, when I did have time for radio. hihi KH6JJN since 1977. And I *proudly* retain the only callsign I've ever held, issued in my home state of Hawaii. There are so many things in our world that change, there should be at least a *few* things that stay the same. 73's-- Jeff ____________________________________________________________ Chart your path to success with a smart new business plan. Click here! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw3BIs8K3lpfqKylvZg5CTRR9uv4FAIvcWThbUhkg9bKiu5ci/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 16 23:43:10 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 00:43:10 -0500 Subject: Hams (was Re: thinking of selling my PDP-11/23+) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <34B0CF43-0386-4B2D-88A5-09B43A4F790D@neurotica.com> On Jan 17, 2009, at 12:15 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> Pu1BZZ Alexandre :) >> >> Wait, wait, you're another radio amateur? Not surprised there's a >> crossover with classic computing. Wonder who else? > > N8TVD > > Technician _with_ code (not that it matters anymore) Formerly KA2UZK, tech with code, long since expired and long past the grace period, looking for time to re-up. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From brain at jbrain.com Fri Jan 16 23:45:53 2009 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 23:45:53 -0600 Subject: Hams (was Re: thinking of selling my PDP-11/23+) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49717091.6020600@jbrain.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > N8TVD > > Technician _with_ code (not that it matters anymore) > > -ethan > Hehe, we could all get into the code versus no-code debate... What fun! /me has a lowly Tech license, so I bow at your greatness... (or something like that). Hey, Cedar Rapids, IA is frigid today, and my family wants to know how cold the bottom of the world is, according to Ethan's .signature, so I told them I'd check, but nothing in your .sig. Jim From classiccmp at crash.com Fri Jan 16 23:54:48 2009 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 21:54:48 -0800 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> References: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <497172A8.7000009@crash.com> Al Kossow wrote: > > Wonder who else? > > probably lots.. Looks that way, N1ZHU here. Picked up a no-code Tech so I could work Communications on the '97 NYC Marathon. Never did that much with it, but I've got a Kenwood HF rig around here somewhere waiting for round tuits... --S. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jan 16 23:54:59 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 22:54:59 -0700 Subject: Hams (was Re: thinking of selling my PDP-11/23+) In-Reply-To: <49717091.6020600@jbrain.com> References: <49717091.6020600@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <497172B3.5000906@jetnet.ab.ca> Jim Brain wrote: > Hey, Cedar Rapids, IA is frigid today, and my family wants to know how > cold the bottom of the world is, according to Ethan's .signature, so I > told them I'd check, but nothing in your .sig. So cold ... the temp froze to Ethan's server. Ethan may still be in the US now. > Jim > > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Jan 17 00:00:56 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 23:00:56 -0700 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <49716373.4090407@sbcglobal.net> References: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> <49715F3E.30203@radiorobots.com> <49716373.4090407@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <49717418.5090200@jetnet.ab.ca> Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > Looks like there are quite a few hams here. ... is temped to upload a photo of Mis Piggy ... The biggest Ham I can think of. From blstuart at bellsouth.net Sat Jan 17 00:23:48 2009 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart at bellsouth.net) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 00:23:48 -0600 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <20090116.212054.1739.1@webmail10.vgs.untd.com> Message-ID: > KH6JJN since 1977. > > And I *proudly* retain the only callsign I've ever held, > issued in my home state of Hawaii. Wow that sounds familiar, except that I was licensed in TN. 73s, BLS, WD4AWY From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 17 00:26:22 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 22:26:22 -0800 Subject: Hams (was Re: thinking of selling my PDP-11/23+) In-Reply-To: <34B0CF43-0386-4B2D-88A5-09B43A4F790D@neurotica.com> References: , <34B0CF43-0386-4B2D-88A5-09B43A4F790D@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4971098E.6724.26628FDA@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Jan 2009 at 0:43, Dave McGuire wrote: > Formerly KA2UZK, tech with code, long since expired and long past > the grace period, looking for time to re-up. A very very long time ago, WA9NEK. Discovered girls and computers and lost interest in yakking. Cheers, Chuck From marvin at west.net Sat Jan 17 00:53:38 2009 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 22:53:38 -0800 Subject: hams on classiccmp Message-ID: <49718072.48CB2BDE@west.net> > Wonder who else? I'm VERY active with ARDF (Amateur Radio Direction Finding.) Check out the www.homingin.com So. Cal results and the US ARDF team to give you an idea. I got my extra only so I didn't have to worry about the frequency when putting on 80M hunts. Marvin, KE6HTS From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Sat Jan 17 01:31:45 2009 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko at juno.com) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 07:31:45 GMT Subject: hams on classiccmp Message-ID: <20090116.233145.17072.0@webmail06.vgs.untd.com> -- Marvin Johnston wrote: >> Wonder who else? > >I'm VERY active with ARDF (Amateur Radio Direction Finding.) Check >out the >www.homingin.com So. Cal results and the US ARDF team to give you an >idea. I got >my extra only so I didn't have to worry about the frequency when >putting on 80M >hunts. > >Marvin, KE6HTS Wow, an EXTRA w/o the obligatory vanity call (or at least the usual 1x2 or 2X1). That's pretty rare . . . . ____________________________________________________________ Want to put your personal touch on your home? Click for home improvement ideas and tips. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw2eRIRLNOMG999LUr8KQHga28kaOurA7AI2m4eKiq012WASS/ From IanK at vulcan.com Sat Jan 17 01:33:05 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 23:33:05 -0800 Subject: Printer ribbons Message-ID: When I acquired my PDP-11/34, I also received a Centronics 503 printer, along with an entire case of ribbons for said printer. They have a part number of 63002293-5001. It's a black nylon ribbon on two spools. These are NOS. I haven't been able to identify anything that uses them - and I mean anything, because I can't find anything on the Web about the Centronics 503, either. Does anyone have any leads on this? I'd like to find that these ribbons are worth something to someone, because I'll never use more than a few in my lifetime but I don't want to just trash them. Thanks -- Ian From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Jan 17 02:05:28 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 03:05:28 -0500 Subject: Hams (was Re: thinking of selling my PDP-11/23+) In-Reply-To: <497172B3.5000906@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <49717091.6020600@jbrain.com> <497172B3.5000906@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 12:54 AM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > Jim Brain wrote: > >> Hey, Cedar Rapids, IA is frigid today, and my family wants to know how >> cold the bottom of the world is, according to Ethan's .signature, so I told >> them I'd check, but nothing in your .sig. > > So cold ... the temp froze to Ethan's server. > Ethan may still be in the US now. I am indeed in the US, so I don't run the .sig program that taps the NPX WX. It happened to be approx -12F in Central Ohio last night and -14F at South Pole FWIW. -ethan From chrise at pobox.com Fri Jan 16 09:19:59 2009 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 09:19:59 -0600 Subject: XKL TOAD In-Reply-To: <1232046209.6127.32.camel@elric> References: <200901141506.43879.pat@computer-refuge.org> <1232046209.6127.32.camel@elric> Message-ID: <20090116151959.GA31745@n0jcf.net> On Thursday (01/15/2009 at 07:03PM +0000), Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: > Of course, if you're in one of these funny 110V countries, that's only > 11kW in which case my electric shower will eat most of that. Wow... an electric shower. Around here we just have electric chairs. -- Chris Elmquist mailto:chrise at pobox.com From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Jan 16 16:31:45 2009 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 22:31:45 -0000 Subject: ebay idiots In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001601c9782a$3815eb90$a841c2b0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> I had an interesting episode recently. I was interested in an item that a surplus trader had, in fact he had 3 of them. The items were being offered as Buy It Now with free shipping in the US. I asked what he would charge to ship to the UK, the response was $30 *each* on top of the Buy It Now price which obviously must have already included an allowance for shipping, with no apparent option even to combine the shipping. When I said that the total was too much for me he invited me to suggest what I was prepared to pay. I told him, also saying that I suspected he would find my offer a bit low, but I thought it might be a point at which to start a negotiation. He responded with insults. Needless to say I will be avoiding that trader in the future. Rob From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Jan 16 17:14:40 2009 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 18:14:40 -0500 Subject: DC319 DLARTs and T11s (was T-11 ....) Message-ID: <0KDL004JG785G0F3@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: DC319 DLARTs and T11s (was T-11 ....) > From: "Bob Armstrong" > Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 07:25:17 -0800 > To: > >>A while ago, Choctaw Bob ]bob099 at centurytel.net] wrote: >> >> [Schematic of Peter McCollum's hand built T11 SBC] >> Schematic here http://www.geocities.com/saipan59/dec/t11.jpg > > I just got around to looking at this (sorry - been busy :-) and while it's >nice and simple, it uses a 6850 UART for the console. It's easy enough to >interface the 6850 (or any other modern UART for that matter) to the T11 >bus, but it's not going to be even remotely PDP-11 compatible. If you want >to have any hope of ever running any real PDP-11 software, you're going to >need a DL11/KL11 compatible console interface. DLARTs are hard o find. I have a dozen t11s and one DLART. > For the T11 that means you also want a DC319AA DLART (a "DL-11 compatible >UART chip") chip, and after looking around those seem to be far more >difficult to come by than the DCT11 CPU chips. Does anybody have a pile of >DC319 chips handy, or know where they can be found? Unlike the T11 chips, >which can be harvested from a lot of fairly common and not very valuable DEC >boards (e.g. RQDX3s), I don't know of any good donor for DLARTs. There are >a couple on my FALCON SBC-11/21 board, but I'm hardly willing to take it >apart for this project :-) Actually a 6402 (two or three are better) and the logic to do a ful DL isn't bad. With at least two then you can do a Tu58/TU58sim as a disk and have a real bootable 11. You also want at least 28KW of ram (2 32kx8 rams will do it) and TUboot in a small eprom mapped at boot. > If you can't find a DC319, then the alternative is to build a DL11 >compatible interface using a standard UART like the 6402 and a handful of >discrete logic. I think the minimum you could get away with would be to >implement the DONE and INTERRUPT ENABLE bits (bits 6 and 7) for both the >receiver and transmitter CSR, and then to implement the standard vectors at >60/64. Oh, and of course the data registers for the transmitter and >receiver. > > The KL11 also implements a MAINTENANCE bit, a BUSY bit, and a READER >ENABLE bit, but a) we have no reader, b) I doubt (I'm hoping) much software >ever looks at the BUSY bit, and c) probably nothing uses the MAINTENANCE bit >except the diagnostics. Try to find the logic for DLV11J as that has basic serial. You do not need all the bits but most are handy and you also need to generate a valid vector for console (60Q) and also for any other port. > ISTR that DEC had an "official" standard written down for exactly what was >required of a DL-11 compatible serial interface, but I can't find it >anywhere. Microcomputer handbook. I'll try to find something more. Allison >Bob > From leaknoil at comcast.net Fri Jan 16 18:13:54 2009 From: leaknoil at comcast.net (Pete) Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 16:13:54 -0800 Subject: ecycling In-Reply-To: <4970D394.20601@bitsavers.org> References: <4970D394.20601@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <497122C2.9050601@comcast.net> Oh the good ol' days of driving over to San Jose and rummaging through the surplus stores. RA electronics, Weird Stuff, Action Computers, and whatever the two off Lawrence were. One across from Fry's and the other up a ways towards 280. I can't believe I don't remember the names anymore Weird Stuff and Action Computers were always the over priced surplus stores I avoided back then. Now they are all that's left. Probably because they could still afford to pay rent when the boom happened. I admit to selling half the stuff I found back then but, it was on this thing called the Usenet you really weren't supposed to be selling things on. So many 'e-recycers' now. Basically everyone with a pick-up truck is calling themselves electronic recyclers now and posting flyers all over. Al Kossow wrote: > > There seems to be a recent trend on ebay for places that collect > > electronics for recycling to have someone who picks out the "old" items > > for sale on ebay. > > They have been cherry picking the incoming stuff for years. The big > one around > here is Computer Recycling Center, next to Weird Stuff (who is in the > same biz). > > Most modern PC stuff they get goes to schools, they eBay the stuff > they can get > money from, and put the dregs up for sale on Saturday mornings. > Feeding frenzy > at 9:00 AM when they open. I wander by every once and a while to pick > up cheap > PCI cards, or the odd bit of old software no one else wants. > > Most of the store front junk stores around here disappeared as > manufacturing left > the valley, and the bottom feeders from bankruptcies go directly to > eBay now with > no retail presence. > > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Jan 16 23:25:07 2009 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 00:25:07 -0500 Subject: Hams (was Re: thinking of selling my PDP-11/23+) Message-ID: <0KDL00FYDODIL5K9@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Hams (was Re: thinking of selling my PDP-11/23+) > From: "Ethan Dicks" > Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 00:15:05 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 9:25 PM, Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ > wrote: >> On Fri, 2009-01-16 at 15:04 -0200, Alexandre Souza wrote: >> >>> Pu1BZZ Alexandre :) >> >> Wait, wait, you're another radio amateur? Not surprised there's a >> crossover with classic computing. Wonder who else? > >N8TVD > >Technician _with_ code (not that it matters anymore) > >-ethan We are everywhere... KB1GMX Extra I like my old tech call. Allison From nico at Farumdata.dk Sat Jan 17 03:33:11 2009 From: nico at Farumdata.dk (nico) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 10:33:11 +0100 Subject: hams on classiccmp Message-ID: <200901171033.AA284164486@Farumdata.dk> >At 10:24 PM 1/16/2009 -0500, you wrote: >>On Friday 16 January 2009, Al Kossow wrote: >> > > Wonder who else? >> > >> > probably lots.. >> > Nico in Denmark, licensed since 1972 or so. OZ 1 BMC From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sat Jan 17 04:33:12 2009 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 11:33:12 +0100 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20090116215533.022164f8@localhost> References: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> <5.1.0.14.2.20090116215533.022164f8@localhost> Message-ID: HAM activities are down to a minimum at the moment for me here in The Netherlands. I have a license since 1974 or 1975 (can't remember, hi). When the code requirement was dropped, I would automatically get a full license (active on all bands allowed), but it would have been under my call PE1CKF. I was so vain that I wanted to have a call that would reflect that I have the code license. I learned the morse code just in time for the last exam taken by the authorities here! Without passing the morse exam I could never get the prefix PA8. ... so now I have the call PA8PDP :-) Obligatory: I try to combine the PDP-11 (and pdp8) stuff with my HAM activities soon. I am building a pdp8/i in FPGA (with Vince), and plan on writing an RTTY program for the -8 and the -11. However, MixW is the program running on the PC (also soon ...). My aim is to become active on HF using my RACAL stuff, although I also own an FT-767GX (HF, 6, 2, and 70). 73, - Henk. From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sat Jan 17 06:01:34 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 10:01:34 -0200 Subject: Hams (was Re: thinking of selling my PDP-11/23+) References: <49717091.6020600@jbrain.com> <497172B3.5000906@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <014301c9789b$7463c790$46fea8c0@DeskJara> > It happened to be approx -12F in Central Ohio last night and -14F at > South Pole FWIW. I'd trade a classic brazilian computer for some of this cold here in Brazil :o) From brad at heeltoe.com Sat Jan 17 06:11:07 2009 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 07:11:07 -0500 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: References: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> , <49715F3E.30203@radiorobots.com> Message-ID: <25320.1232194267@mini> Ian King wrote: >I just got a VAX-11/780-5 up with VMS on TCP/IP.... very nice. Can you describe how it went? Was the 780 previously in moth balls? -brad From brad at heeltoe.com Sat Jan 17 06:35:19 2009 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 07:35:19 -0500 Subject: xenix redux (or, how to bring back a dead xenix pc) Message-ID: <26194.1232195719@mini> This is a short story about getting data off an old xenix pc. delete now if that is not interesting :-) A while ago friend brought over an old pc which was dead. It's a 386 Compaq, very old. It had been running xenix and it was never turned off but one day the power failed. When the power came back it would not boot - the clock battery was long since dead and had lost it's disk setup. Inside is a 386 with about 4mb of ram and a Compaq ESDI controller. And a dead Dallas clock chip. I dremel tooled the Dallas clock chip and soldered in a new battery pack. I got a floppy disk image to reset the bios from someone here (thanks!) But despite many tries it would not boot. The diag program would not let me set the disk parameters exactly the way they needed to be set. most frustrating. So, I yanked the controller (ESDI), changed the jumpers and put it in another old pc which had linux on it. I booted linux and gave it the disk geometry via the command line ("hdc=1224,15,34") Once in linux I made an image of the disk using dd. It turns out that the "conv=" option is very important. I used "conv=noerrors,notrunc,sync". Originally I use "conv=noerrors" and the resulting image was bad because the disk had errors. dd conv=noerrors,notrunc,sync if=/dev/hdc of=disk.img I then put the resulting disk image on another linux box and wrote a tiny C program to search for valid sysv super blocks. It found 3. I then used "dd" to copy part of the image, with an offset (the start of the first superblock), to a new file. dd if=disk.img of=d4 bs=512 skip=2040 With that I had a valid sysv file system in a single file. I then mounted the new file using the loopback option: mount d4 /mnt -t sysv -o loop and viola! I could see all the files and could make a tar file of the root directory. Flush with success (don't you just love it when things actually work? :-) I decided to try and boot it. I used a recent copy of qemu and told it the geometry of the original disk qemu -hdachs 1000,15,34 -boot c -hda disk.img Much to my shock, it booted xenix, cleaned the file system and gave me a login prompt. Now I just have to clean up the mess in my office :-) Man that thing had a lot of dust and dirt in it. -brad From db at db.net Sat Jan 17 07:20:35 2009 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 08:20:35 -0500 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: References: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> <5.1.0.14.2.20090116215533.022164f8@localhost> Message-ID: <20090117132035.GA22733@night.db.net> On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 11:33:12AM +0100, Henk Gooijen wrote: > > HAM activities are down to a minimum at the moment for me here > in The Netherlands. I have a license since 1974 or 1975 (can't ... > Obligatory: I try to combine the PDP-11 (and pdp8) stuff with my > HAM activities soon. I am building a pdp8/i in FPGA (with Vince), We had a PDP-8 given to us by the engineering department for our club station at university. We used it for sending rtty both 5 level and 8 level years ago. > and plan on writing an RTTY program for the -8 and the -11. I got to write one for the -8, even getting it to read rad50 files off of the OS/8 fs. ;-) I wish I had have kept a paper tape of that. Ham and computers just go together so well. > However, MixW is the program running on the PC (also soon ...). fldigi on FreeBSD here. ;-) - 73 Diane VA3DB -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Sat Jan 17 07:44:06 2009 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 13:44:06 +0000 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> References: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I am yet another ex G8NND. One day I might take up the license again, main activity was 10GHz ATV and back chat on 2M. Dave Caroline (archivist) From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sat Jan 17 07:56:02 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 13:56:02 +0000 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: References: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1232200562.6127.132.camel@elric> On Sat, 2009-01-17 at 13:44 +0000, Dave Caroline wrote: > I am yet another ex G8NND. One day I might take up the license again, > main activity was 10GHz ATV and back chat on 2M. The UK Foundation licence is 20 quid, and doesn't expire. You need to validate your licence on the Ofcom site periodically but that bit is free. You know you want to. Gordon From keithvz at verizon.net Sat Jan 17 09:02:13 2009 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 10:02:13 -0500 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <1232200562.6127.132.camel@elric> References: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> <1232200562.6127.132.camel@elric> Message-ID: <4971F2F5.5050206@verizon.net> I'm KB3PSB. Ham since '07, been playing with radio stuff for probably 10 years. And while we are talking about the cold. It's a brisk -2F out this morning with windchills taking us to -10F. A quick scan of the weather.com temp map, and it looks like Pittsburgh "Wins" the cold race right now, at least in the US. Keith From david_comley at yahoo.com Sat Jan 17 09:04:41 2009 From: david_comley at yahoo.com (David Comley) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 07:04:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <06cb01c97850$e3597fa0$aa0c7ee0$@com> Message-ID: <447855.67190.qm@web30606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > > Wonder who else? KB3HOW in Holicong, PA. Come to think of it, I don't post much these days and I don't get on HF much either. -Dave From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Sat Jan 17 09:49:38 2009 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 09:49:38 -0600 Subject: Hams (was Re: thinking of selling my PDP-11/23+) In-Reply-To: <200901170544.n0H5iAPm027404@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901170544.n0H5iAPm027404@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <6bv3n41d5hu81kuct0dk3q8enjnnf44a18@4ax.com> On Fri, 16 Jan 2009 23:44:19 -0600 (CST), you wrote: >>>> Pu1BZZ Alexandre :) >>> >>> Wait, wait, you're another radio amateur? Not surprised there's a >>> crossover with classic computing. Wonder who else? WB3JOK since 1976... now /0 in Missouri. Yes, 75m is a belchfartfest sometimes worse than CB, but there are plenty of other HF bands as the cycle starts to recover... also still some interesting nets on 40m. Check out the 72 Chew (www.ragchewers.net) on 7272 KHz :) 73 -Charles (guess no one wants the 11/23, maybe I'll try fleabay :) From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Jan 17 09:54:07 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 07:54:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: xenix redux (or, how to bring back a dead xenix pc) In-Reply-To: <26194.1232195719@mini> from Brad Parker at "Jan 17, 9 07:35:19 am" Message-ID: <200901171554.n0HFs7JO010040@floodgap.com> > I then put the resulting disk image on another linux box and wrote a > tiny C program to search for valid sysv super blocks. Mind posting the source? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- BOND THEME NOW PLAYING: "Die Another Day" ---------------------------------- From brad at heeltoe.com Sat Jan 17 10:13:59 2009 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 11:13:59 -0500 Subject: xenix redux (or, how to bring back a dead xenix pc) In-Reply-To: <200901171554.n0HFs7JO010040@floodgap.com> References: <200901171554.n0HFs7JO010040@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <3712.1232208839@mini> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> I then put the resulting disk image on another linux box and wrote a >> tiny C program to search for valid sysv super blocks. > >Mind posting the source? no problem. it was just a quick hack. --- cut here --- #include #include #define __packed2__ __attribute__ ((packed, aligned(2))) typedef unsigned short u16; typedef unsigned int u32; typedef short s16; typedef int s32; typedef u16 sysv_ino_t; typedef u32 sysv_zone_t; /* Xenix super-block data on disk */ #define XENIX_NICINOD 100 /* number of inode cache entries */ #define XENIX_NICFREE 100 /* number of free block list chunk entries */ struct xenix_super_block { u16 s_isize; /* index of first data zone */ u32 s_fsize __packed2__; /* total number of zones of this fs */ /* the start of the free block list: */ u16 s_nfree; /* number of free blocks in s_free, <= XENIX_NICFREE */ u32 s_free[XENIX_NICFREE]; /* first free block list chunk */ /* the cache of free inodes: */ u16 s_ninode; /* number of free inodes in s_inode, <= XENIX_NICINOD */ sysv_ino_t s_inode[XENIX_NICINOD]; /* some free inodes */ /* locks, not used by Linux: */ char s_flock; /* lock during free block list manipulation */ char s_ilock; /* lock during inode cache manipulation */ char s_fmod; /* super-block modified flag */ char s_ronly; /* flag whether fs is mounted read-only */ u32 s_time __packed2__; /* time of last super block update */ u32 s_tfree __packed2__; /* total number of free zones */ u16 s_tinode; /* total number of free inodes */ s16 s_dinfo[4]; /* device information ?? */ char s_fname[6]; /* file system volume name */ char s_fpack[6]; /* file system pack name */ char s_clean; /* set to 0x46 when filesystem is properly unmounted */ char s_fill[371]; s32 s_magic; /* version of file system */ s32 s_type; /* type of file system: 1 for 512 byte blocks 2 for 1024 byte blocks 3 for 2048 byte blocks */ }; char buffer[4096]; main() { int fd, ret; struct xenix_super_block *sb; int offset; fd = open("d1", O_RDONLY); sb = (struct xenix_super_block *)buffer; printf("size %d\n", sizeof(struct xenix_super_block)); //printf("offset %d\n", ((char *)&sb->s_magic) - buffer); offset = 0; while (1) { ret = read(fd, buffer, 1024); if (ret != 1024) break; if (sb->s_magic == 0x002b5544 && (sb->s_type >= 1 && sb->s_type <= 3)) { printf("offset %d 0x%x\n", offset, offset); printf("block %d\n", (offset-1024) / 512); printf("s_magic %08x\n", sb->s_magic); printf("s_type %08x\n", sb->s_type); printf("s_nfree %04x\n", sb->s_nfree); } offset += 1024; } } From dundas at caltech.edu Sat Jan 17 10:16:34 2009 From: dundas at caltech.edu (dundas at caltech.edu) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 08:16:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> References: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <51014.75.24.249.248.1232208994.squirrel@webmail.caltech.edu> > > Wonder who else? > > probably lots.. KC6UDF John From brad at heeltoe.com Sat Jan 17 10:19:58 2009 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 11:19:58 -0500 Subject: Japanese pc emulators Message-ID: <4071.1232209198@mini> I found this home page while looking at qemu for windows. Looks like he's done a lot of work on Japanese pc emulators. Perhaps this is old news. http://homepage3.nifty.com/takeda-toshiya -brad From k0vj at arrl.net Sat Jan 17 11:02:56 2009 From: k0vj at arrl.net (Rick Kaumeier) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 10:02:56 -0700 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <200901170544.n0H5iAPn027404@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901170544.n0H5iAPn027404@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200901171002.57115.k0vj@arrl.net> Al Kossow wrote: > Wonder who else? > > probably lots.. > I'm K0VJ and have lurked on classiccmp for many years. My ham interests run mostly to QRP CW, building compact homebrew CW rigs, and restoring classic tube gear. Got my first license (N2EBX) back in early 1983 when the exams were still being given by the FCC. I've seen a lot of changes, had a lot of fun, and am currently not-so-patiently waiting for the sunspots to come back! From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Jan 17 11:23:34 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 12:23:34 -0500 Subject: Hams (was Re: thinking of selling my PDP-11/23+) In-Reply-To: References: <49717091.6020600@jbrain.com> <497172B3.5000906@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <49721416.9010201@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 12:54 AM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca > wrote: >> Jim Brain wrote: >> >>> Hey, Cedar Rapids, IA is frigid today, and my family wants to know how >>> cold the bottom of the world is, according to Ethan's .signature, so I told >>> them I'd check, but nothing in your .sig. >> So cold ... the temp froze to Ethan's server. >> Ethan may still be in the US now. > > I am indeed in the US, so I don't run the .sig program that taps the NPX WX. > > It happened to be approx -12F in Central Ohio last night and -14F at > South Pole FWIW. But it's the depths of winter in Ohio and the height of summer at the South Pole, right? Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Jan 17 11:28:55 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 12:28:55 -0500 Subject: Hams (was Re: thinking of selling my PDP-11/23+) In-Reply-To: <6bv3n41d5hu81kuct0dk3q8enjnnf44a18@4ax.com> References: <200901170544.n0H5iAPm027404@dewey.classiccmp.org> <6bv3n41d5hu81kuct0dk3q8enjnnf44a18@4ax.com> Message-ID: <49721557.5060605@gmail.com> Charles wrote: > 73 > -Charles > (guess no one wants the 11/23, maybe I'll try fleabay :) I'd love to have it, but it's a bit too far. Peace... Sridhar From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Jan 17 11:29:02 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 10:29:02 -0700 Subject: Hams (was Re: thinking of selling my PDP-11/23+) In-Reply-To: <014301c9789b$7463c790$46fea8c0@DeskJara> References: <49717091.6020600@jbrain.com> <497172B3.5000906@jetnet.ab.ca> <014301c9789b$7463c790$46fea8c0@DeskJara> Message-ID: <4972155E.1010001@jetnet.ab.ca> Alexandre Souza wrote: >> It happened to be approx -12F in Central Ohio last night and -14F at >> South Pole FWIW. > > I'd trade a classic brazilian computer for some of this cold here in > Brazil :o) How about floating a iceburg down south for you. :) From IanK at vulcan.com Sat Jan 17 12:55:32 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 10:55:32 -0800 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <25320.1232194267@mini> References: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> , <49715F3E.30203@radiorobots.com> , <25320.1232194267@mini> Message-ID: This machine was one of a pair bought from a collector who bought from a collector who bought from...? It was interesting noting the differences between the two: for instance, on one the black foam was in fairly good shape (replaced it anyway), but on the other it was falling off in chunks. Both seemed in good mechanical condition. The next step was to ensure electrical integrity. So I replaced every electrolytic capacitor of consequence in the switching power supplies - five in one machine, six in the other - plus the LSI-11 boot machine and RX01 boot floppy. This was expensive! We used Mouser as our source because their stock and prices were the best we found among the established vendors. Even so, there were a couple of instances where it just wasn't possible to buy a large electrolytic with the exact same form factor as the original - the newer ones were smaller! Curse progress.... In one instance (the main filters in the switchers), it was necessary to ever-so-slightly reshape the holes on the circuit board so the new capacitor's posts would line up. Of course, I visually inspected each and every board in both machines to look for heat marks, obviously damaged bypass caps and the like. There were several instances of tin-plated IC sockets, so I did the rock-and-reseat maneuver just as a precaution. After all of this, we carefully brought up the machine. We had a challenge because 120V three phase doesn't seem to be usual practice in US wiring - we had 240V three phase, but that obviously wasn't going to do us any good! Carefully looking through the power distribution unit's engineering drawings, it became clear that DEC used three-phase simply to balance the current load among the legs - in fact, everything runs on 120V. So we used equal care in reviewing the wiring of the warehouse where we keep these machines and found three outlets that were (a) on the same side of the 240V mains and (b) not sharing a breaker and circuit. Those were connected to a three-phase outlet, the VAXen were plugged in and voila! NOTE: we have a team member experienced with commercial power circuits. Don't try this at home - or if you do, be very very careful and be certain that, from any of the three live blades to another, you don't have more than 120V. Now that the machines would power up, I scoped all the power supply voltages to ensure they were really DC, i.e. that I hadn't missed an important filter cap anywhere. All good, so I tried booting from the floppies we got with the machines. I was able to get the basic console to boot - hooray! - but was unable to get the microdiagnostics to run. We had agreed that successful execution of the low-level diagnostics was a precursor to any attempt to install the OS, so this was a roadblock. I learned a lot about the interaction between the LSI-11 boot device and the VAX-11 CPU. The Console Interface Board actually 'lives' in the LSI-11's memory space - it holds the boot ROMS, for instance. So if you remove the LSI-11 to test it, you can get an ODT prompt but that's it. There is a channel between LSI-11 I/O space and the VAX-11, too, and the two machines communicate during normal operation, which is how the LSI-11 serves as the console device. One thing that seemed odd was that when I tried to execute the microdiagnostics, the LSI-11 would halt at 070000. I finally found a listing for the microdiagnostic that showed a macro statement basing the program at that address - but after poking around a bit, I found out it was loading at 071000. I tried starting from there - no go. What I finally figured out was truly bizarre. THERE IS MORE THAN ONE VERSION OF THE MICRODIAGNOSTICS FOR A /785, and the floppy and program names are the same. The only thing that distinguishes them is the 'stock number', i.e. AS-A123 blahblah, and I never found a shred of documentation that associated one or another with a given machine or serial number series. I infer that DEC assumed you'd get your set of floppies when you bought your machine, duplicate them as needed for security, and that was that. They never anticipated people like us, doing 'archaeology' on obsolete machines.... After some investigation, I discovered a key characteristic: the version that didn't work with my machine had a zero-filled first block in the program files, and the ones that did work had some code in that block, beginning with a JMP instruction. We discovered the repository maintained by trailing-edge.com and perused those, together with the EVNDX file from bitsavers.org, and eventually found a full set of diagnostic disk images. We transferred those onto physical floppies using a PDP-11/03 and the TU-58 emulator program I found through Will Kranz's website. Now we were running microdiagnostics - but failing some. I started focusing on one of the two machines because it seemed in better health, but the memory test chains were failing. Of course, they identified themselves on the console as testing MS780A through -D, and we had a -H in each of our machines. It seemed quite possible, from the errors I was seeing, that it was that simple - but I still wanted a good memory diagnostic run. Searching some more, I found that there was a floppy designated RX3 that claimed to be a microdiagnostic diskette - the documentation for the microdiagnostics (from bitsavers.org) pointed you at RX1 and RX2. My study of the microdiagnostic system told me that it was smart enough to allow for extension, because it would look for files with names of a given structure when you told it to proceed. So I dropped in RX3, gave the DIAGNOSE instruction, and wonder of wonders: a memory diagnostic for MS780E-H began running! We passed that one just fine, and began working toward getting the OS installed. We had CDROM media for OpenVMS 6.2, the latest version certified for the VAX-11/785 - but of course, we didn't have any sort of adapter to talk to a CDROM drive. But we'd earlier made a judgement call to use the CI interface for the system device, and had ordered an HSJ50 setup from PSDS in Woodinville, Washington - really cool guys, by the way, I'd recommend them anytime. I anticipated we'd hook a CDROM into one of the SCSI ports, a shelf of RZ drives into another and we'd be off. However, I did not count on the embarrassment of riches we received from PSDS. They fully populated the HSJ with six shelves and configured RAID arrays up and down! It was great, but it didn't leave anywhere to plug in my CDROM. I played with it for a while, loathe to disassemble it, and finally developed a solution. One of the RAID arrays was 'short', with four drives instead of six; the other two were hot spares. So I pulled one of the spares, plugged it into a StorageWorks shelf on one of the MicroVAX 3100s in my personal collection, and copied the installation media onto it with BACKUP ddcu:/IMAGE/NOALIAS target:. I plugged that back into the HSJ, set it up as a single disk unit, and it booted into the install! I found that I actually needed TWO of these: one was the boot device AND target, the other served as the source media under the install program. When I finally installed the OS onto one of the RAID arrays, I used the same BACKUP command to install an image of the media, booted it, and used the single-disk copy as the source media. One diversion that is worth noting: I tried using the floppy based standalone backup floppies we're gotten with the machines. While I could go through the series, I could not get them to recognize the CI-based drives. Given all my other challenges with versions, I suspected this was just another such issue. I finally decided to simply use the CIBOO.CMD file on the boot floppy. However, I needed the 'station number' and 'device number' for the boot device. Station number was easy: our HSJ dual-redundant controller was set up as IDs 0 and 1, so I used the value 0x100 in R2. But device number had me stumped for a bit. I finally figured out the key: the unit numbers defined in the HSJ's configuration correspond to the device numbers! So 'D6' in the HSJ menu - what I'd called the single-disk unit with the install media copy - translated to 0x6 in R3, and things booted fine. Now we were cooking with gas. I had a valid VMS license but not a UCX license. We also had MultiNet media, but licensing looked like it was going to be a challenge. So I tried CMUIP. It installed with no problems, but wasn't finding an Ethernet adapter. I did some troubleshooting on this: the adapter was, of course, housed in a Unibus expansion cabinet, a DELUA. We had a spare and I tried that - no joy. The LEDs on the DELUA did not change with boot, but all stayed on. I scratched my head... ...and noticed that we had two Unibus cabinets, since I wasn't paying any attention to the other machine. I swapped them around - non-trivial, but not too difficult - and the Ethernet card fired up just the way Ken intended. Now CMUIP found the card and everyone was happy! I suspect the problem with the other cabinet is cabling - you know how ribbon cables can be. After a bit of scrabbling around in the wire closet, we had live Ethernet, plugged in a static IP address, and left the room - to go to another room and telnet into the VAX-11. Happy Dance! Overall, I'd have to say that the biggest challenge was overcoming the shortcomings in extant documentation. As I said, I don't think DEC ever anticipated someone like me would be trying to piece things together years after the machine was EOL. When diagnostics fail, the course of action is either 'replace the device' or 'call field service' - perfectly reasonable for the era, but not always a solution today. I also found that some key diagnostics were not in evidence - or rather, appropriate versions of them. For instance, I found a copy of the Ethernet diagnostics, but they would not run under my version of the Diagnostic Supervisor. It's quite possible there's another version of the DS that would run them, but I don't know if it will run on my hardware - perhaps one of these days when I'm really bored I'll find out, but for now I'm just happy to have a living VAX-11. -- isk ________________________________________ From: brad at heeltoe.com [brad at heeltoe.com] Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2009 4:11 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; Ian King Subject: Re: hams on classiccmp Ian King wrote: >I just got a VAX-11/780-5 up with VMS on TCP/IP.... very nice. Can you describe how it went? Was the 780 previously in moth balls? -brad From wulfcub at gmail.com Sat Jan 17 12:59:02 2009 From: wulfcub at gmail.com (Wulf daMan) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 12:59:02 -0600 Subject: Hams (was Re: thinking of selling my PDP-11/23+) In-Reply-To: <49717091.6020600@jbrain.com> References: <49717091.6020600@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 11:45 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: >> >> N8TVD >> >> Technician _with_ code (not that it matters anymore) >> >> -ethan >> > > Hehe, we could all get into the code versus no-code debate... What fun! > > /me has a lowly Tech license, so I bow at your greatness... (or something > like that). N0WHG, since 1995. Got my ham license before my drivers license. Completely inactive on the air, as my rig is hosed and waiting for me to find another round tuit. As for code/no-code, I'm no-code, but I was more than a bit unhappy when they dropped the code requirements. On the classic comp side, I'm still working with a PDP11/23 at work, and have a uVAX II sitting in my bedroom. Shaun -- "If you live to be a hundred, I want to live to be a hundred minus one day, so I never have to live without you." -- Winnie The Pooh http://www.lungs4amber.org From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sat Jan 17 13:48:08 2009 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 20:48:08 +0100 (CET) Subject: Japanese pc emulators In-Reply-To: <4071.1232209198@mini> References: <4071.1232209198@mini> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Jan 2009, Brad Parker wrote: > I found this home page while looking at qemu for windows. Looks like > he's done a lot of work on Japanese pc emulators. Perhaps this is old > news. > > http://homepage3.nifty.com/takeda-toshiya Very nice, I have a NEC PC-100 and a Fujitsu FMR-60. But the biggest problem apart from the Japanese keyboard and display is to find software for these machines. And an emulator without any software is nice, but not very useful... Christian From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 17 13:59:39 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 11:59:39 -0800 Subject: Japanese pc emulators In-Reply-To: References: <4071.1232209198@mini>, Message-ID: <4971C82B.4198.294B2F82@cclist.sydex.com> On Sat, 17 Jan 2009, Brad Parker wrote: > I found this home page while looking at qemu for windows. Looks like > he's done a lot of work on Japanese pc emulators. Perhaps this is old > news. > http://homepage3.nifty.com/takeda-toshiya About the coolest variation on this is a NEC PC-9801 emulator running on an iPod Touch: http://blog.gamersweb.it/post/630878/IPod+Touch%3A+PC-9801+Emulator Cheers, Chuck From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sat Jan 17 14:01:20 2009 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 21:01:20 +0100 (CET) Subject: xenix redux (or, how to bring back a dead xenix pc) In-Reply-To: <26194.1232195719@mini> References: <26194.1232195719@mini> Message-ID: On Sat, 17 Jan 2009, Brad Parker wrote: > Inside is a 386 with about 4mb of ram and a Compaq ESDI controller. And > a dead Dallas clock chip. > > I dremel tooled the Dallas clock chip and soldered in a new battery > pack. I got a floppy disk image to reset the bios from someone here > (thanks!) But despite many tries it would not boot. The diag program > would not let me set the disk parameters exactly the way they needed to > be set. most frustrating. Well, ESDI controller are so-called intelligent controllers. You can't (and must not) set the drive parameters in the BIOS. Instead (at least with the WD or Adaptec ESDI controllers) you have to select drive type 1. The controller knows the drive parameters as they are read from the drive. And the controller BIOS doesn't care about the BIOS drive geometry, it used the values from the drive. What exactly is the problem with booting? Any special error codes? Don't forget to disable the onboard hard disk interface, if available. If the board has e.g. an onboard IDE interface, a BIOS reset would most probably enable it, and the resources would collide with those of the ESDI controller. > I then put the resulting disk image on another linux box and wrote a > tiny C program to search for valid sysv super blocks. It found 3. I > then used "dd" to copy part of the image, with an offset (the start of > the first superblock), to a new file. Or you could just write the disk image back e.g. to an IDE disk and put that into the old PC. > and viola! I could see all the files and could make a tar file of ^^^^^ That's a music instrument, I think you meant voil? ;-) Christian From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 17 13:23:34 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 19:23:34 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ebay idiots In-Reply-To: <001601c9782a$3815eb90$a841c2b0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> from "Robert Jarratt" at Jan 16, 9 10:31:45 pm Message-ID: > > I had an interesting episode recently. I was interested in an item that a > surplus trader had, in fact he had 3 of them. The items were being offered > as Buy It Now with free shipping in the US. I asked what he would charge to > ship to the UK, the response was $30 *each* on top of the Buy It Now price > which obviously must have already included an allowance for shipping, with > no apparent option even to combine the shipping. Without knowing what the items are, there's no way I could know how much it would actually cost to ship them to the UK. It may be that $30 is a reasonable _difference_ betweeen the UK and US shipping costs. The things that annoy me are sellers who have _ridiculously_ high shipping costs. There's a guy who's got some manuals for sale -- fairly thin manuals, no binders or anything like that. His shipping charge to the UK is something over \pounds 60.00. Now, I relaise that filling in tyhe customs form for overseas shipping takes time, and that it's reasonable to have to pay for that. But, darn it, that charge is excessive compared to the shipping charged by other sellers for much larger/heavier/more delicate items. As with others here, I get annoyed when things are not packed adeguately and arrive damaged. I would be happy to pay more for proper packing on a rare device. And I wish sellers would (a) get in touch if there's a delay in sending out the package, and (b) would actually let me know when they send it. If I am not in to receive the parcel, it gets taken back to the post office or sorting office then (a) I have to go and collect it and (b) it appears such packages are much more likely to be damaged. So I want to be in when it's delivered. On the other hand, I don't want to have to wait around for a parcel that's not even been sent yet. A short e-mail from the seller 'I sent it on $date' would be much appreciated. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 17 13:42:28 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 19:42:28 +0000 (GMT) Subject: thinking of selling my PDP-11/23+ In-Reply-To: <1232159131.6127.103.camel@elric> from "Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ" at Jan 17, 9 02:25:31 am Message-ID: > > On Fri, 2009-01-16 at 15:04 -0200, Alexandre Souza wrote: > > > Pu1BZZ Alexandre :) > > Wait, wait, you're another radio amateur? Not surprised there's a > crossover with classic computing. Wonder who else? Fred van Kempen Me for another :-). Call G1XPF. That was a Class B license years ago -- for the non-UK people here, 'Class B' was a no-code license which let you transmit on 6m and above, all modes. But in the great reshuffle of licenses about 6 years ago, it bacame a 'Full' license (basically the code requirement was removed)... I'm not active, but I keep the license going just in case :-) -tony From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Jan 17 14:06:40 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 15:06:40 -0500 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: References: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> <25320.1232194267@mini> Message-ID: <200901171506.40639.pat@computer-refuge.org> > From: brad at heeltoe.com [brad at heeltoe.com] > > Ian King wrote: > >I just got a VAX-11/780-5 up with VMS on TCP/IP.... > > very nice. Can you describe how it went? Was the 780 previously > in moth balls? > > -brad On Saturday 17 January 2009, Ian King wrote: > This machine was one of a pair bought from a collector who bought > from a collector who bought from...? It was interesting noting the > differences between the two: for instance, on one the black foam was > in fairly good shape (replaced it anyway), but on the other it was > falling off in chunks. Both seemed in good mechanical condition. > The next step was to ensure electrical integrity. FWIW, if you can be sure you're going to operate the machine in a relatively clean environment (eg, no carpeting or other things to generate dust), I'd forgo the filter foam, as all it'll do is crumble and block airflow. > So I replaced every electrolytic capacitor of consequence in the > switching power supplies - five in one machine, six in the other - > plus the LSI-11 boot machine and RX01 boot floppy. This was > expensive! This also seems unnecessary if the capacitors were still good. The 11/780 I got up and running has one bad psu (de-asserts DCOK every once in a while, and causes the machine to reboot) which may be bad capacitors, but everything else was ok, despite being stored for over 10 years. > After all of this, we carefully brought up the machine. We had a > challenge because 120V three phase doesn't seem to be usual practice > in US wiring - we had 240V three phase, but that obviously wasn't > going to do us any good! Carefully looking through the power > distribution unit's engineering drawings, it became clear that DEC > used three-phase simply to balance the current load among the legs - > in fact, everything runs on 120V. So we used equal care in reviewing > the wiring of the warehouse where we keep these machines and found > three outlets that were (a) on the same side of the 240V mains and > (b) not sharing a breaker and circuit. Those were connected to a > three-phase outlet, the VAXen were plugged in and voila! NOTE: we > have a team member experienced with commercial power circuits. Don't > try this at home - or if you do, be very very careful and be certain > that, from any of the three live blades to another, you don't have > more than 120V. First, I want to point out that all of the power outlets on the PDU are 120V, 20A (NEMA 5-20R) outlets, so it should be somewhat obvious from that, that the machine doesn't need three phase power to run, no engineering drawings required. :) Also, your statements about three phase power aren't quite valid. You may have had three-phase 240V, but that is unlikely, the typical practice in the US for non-motor loads (lighting, general power usage) is 120/208V three phase or 120/240V single phase. In normal use, the three phase connections on the VAX PDU have 208V between them, and 120V to ground, which is a standard 120/208V three phase system. You can run the machine off of single phase power by chosing up to three separate 120V circuits - it's ok if they're on different phases, having 240V phase-to-phase is OK - and running each one to a different phase, and tying all the neutrals together to the neutral in the machine. In fact, it is a good idea to make sure that you have different phases, so that you minimize the neutral current, otherwise you may end up with melted wiring or fire, and selecting opposite phases will do this for you, as the netural current from opposite phases will cancel either other out. Fortunately, an 11/780 doesn't draw nearly the outlet/PDU rating; I think I measured around 24A total draw at 120V from all three phases on mine, and load didn't raise that too much. I've run it from three 15A circuits (in a building with 120/208V power that I'm not allowed to put in my own outlet for it ;), and it was ok, each phase was around 8A max. > Now that the machines would power up, I scoped all the power supply > voltages to ensure they were really DC, i.e. that I hadn't missed an > important filter cap anywhere. All good, so I tried booting from the > floppies we got with the machines. Fun. I'd suggest putting a scope (or even better a one-shot that triggers when they go off) "DCOK" and "ACOK" outputs from the PSUs as more important; checking voltages with a DMM is probably more useful. > I was able to get the basic > console to boot - hooray! - but was unable to get the > microdiagnostics to run. We had agreed that successful execution of > the low-level diagnostics was a precursor to any attempt to install > the OS, so this was a roadblock. Your OS is probably the best diagnostic that you have. If it doesn't boot, or crashes, there's something wrong, which you can pick a precise diagnostic to examine the problem. Diagnostics sometimes find problems that don't really exist, and miss things that are show-stoppers. > We had CDROM media for OpenVMS 6.2, the latest version certified for > the VAX-11/785 7.x works fine. > Now we were cooking with gas. I had a valid VMS license but not a > UCX license. You should be able to use the hobbyist license, unless you're planning on running the machine commercially. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 17 14:44:17 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 12:44:17 -0800 Subject: thinking of selling my PDP-11/23+ In-Reply-To: References: <1232159131.6127.103.camel@elric> from "Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ" at Jan 17, 9 02:25:31 am, Message-ID: <4971D2A1.20702.29741750@cclist.sydex.com> On 17 Jan 2009 at 19:42, Tony Duell wrote: > Me for another :-). Call G1XPF. That was a Class B license years ago -- > for the non-UK people here, 'Class B' was a no-code license which let you > transmit on 6m and above, all modes. But in the great reshuffle of > licenses about 6 years ago, it bacame a 'Full' license (basically the > code requirement was removed)... That's very strange. The old US Technician license (5 wpm code) limited operation to 2 Meters and *down* (i.e. VHF/UHF). It seems odd to restrict no-code to HF--unless by "above" you mean up in frequency, not wavelength. Cheers, Chuck From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Jan 17 15:04:40 2009 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 15:04:40 -0600 Subject: xenix redux (or, how to bring back a dead xenix pc) In-Reply-To: <200901171554.n0HFs7JO010040@floodgap.com> References: <200901171554.n0HFs7JO010040@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <497247E8.4060300@mdrconsult.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> I then put the resulting disk image on another linux box and wrote a >> tiny C program to search for valid sysv super blocks. > > Mind posting the source? And possibly the disk image, suitably sanitized? If necessary, I can host it short-term. Doc From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 17 15:10:39 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 21:10:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: thinking of selling my PDP-11/23+ In-Reply-To: <4971D2A1.20702.29741750@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 17, 9 12:44:17 pm Message-ID: > > On 17 Jan 2009 at 19:42, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Me for another :-). Call G1XPF. That was a Class B license years ago -- > > for the non-UK people here, 'Class B' was a no-code license which let you > > transmit on 6m and above, all modes. But in the great reshuffle of > > licenses about 6 years ago, it bacame a 'Full' license (basically the > > code requirement was removed)... > > That's very strange. The old US Technician license (5 wpm code) > limited operation to 2 Meters and *down* (i.e. VHF/UHF). It seems > odd to restrict no-code to HF--unless by "above" you mean up in > frequency, not wavelength. Yes, I did, sorry for the confusion. The old UK Class B license was a VHF/UHF license. At one time (before I was licensed it was the UHF bands only (70cm and higher frequencies). When I got my licence, it was 2m and higher frequencies, 4m came in shortly afterwards. When the UK got a 6m band (even later), I think class B's had access to that from the start. I should get active, I guess. What's put me off is that 99% of the hams I meet seem only interested by buying the latest black-ox transciever. I'm interested in homebrrwing, restoring boatanchors, tinkering, that sort of thing. The digital modes looked attractive at first until I realised that for most of them you use a PC running pre-written (and often not open-soruce!) software. No thanks. The sort of experimetnation that I am interested in is not done with black boxes. When I get a tuit composed of a set of points equidistant from a fixed point, I'll get the AR88 on the bench. I hauled it out of a skip years ago (literally), I've now found enough good valves to run it, so it's just (!) a matter of replaicng defective capacitors and getting it running again. Then I have to think of making a transmitter.... As I said, I have shortage of tuits. -tony From drb at msu.edu Sat Jan 17 15:26:30 2009 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 16:26:30 -0500 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: (Your message of Fri, 16 Jan 2009 22:53:38 PST.) <49718072.48CB2BDE@west.net> References: <49718072.48CB2BDE@west.net> Message-ID: <200901172126.n0HLQUQR015188@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Wonder who else? KB8ZQZ. Spend much of my ham time doing public service. Our served agency's favorite service seems to be ATV these days, which is rapidly becoming "classic" as well. De From schoedel at kw.igs.net Sat Jan 17 15:55:42 2009 From: schoedel at kw.igs.net (Kevin Schoedel) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 16:55:42 -0500 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> References: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > Wonder who else? VA3TCS, but not active; fortunately, Canadian licenses don't expire. -- Kevin Schoedel From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Sat Jan 17 16:37:21 2009 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 22:37:21 +0000 Subject: Printer ribbons In-Reply-To: <200901171725.n0HHOtVa035405@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901171725.n0HHOtVa035405@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <16A0527D-F97E-406C-9C67-A46D80ED0BF6@microspot.co.uk> On 17 Jan, 2009, at 17:25, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > Message: 9 > Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 23:33:05 -0800 > From: Ian King > Subject: Printer ribbons > To: " (cctalk at classiccmp.org)" > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > When I acquired my PDP-11/34, I also received a Centronics 503 > printer, along with an entire case of ribbons for said printer. > They have a part number of 63002293-5001. It's a black nylon ribbon > on two spools. These are NOS. I haven't been able to identify > anything that uses them - and I mean anything, because I can't find > anything on the Web about the Centronics 503, either. > > Does anyone have any leads on this? I'd like to find that these > ribbons are worth something to someone, because I'll never use more > than a few in my lifetime but I don't want to just trash them. > Thanks -- Ian Googling the part number says they are 1 inch wide by 36 yards and fit Centronics 101,101A,101R,102,102A and103. Stangely no mention of a 503. I was checking in case they fitted my ASR33 but it uses narrower ones. I see lots of Teletype paper and paper tape on eBay but never ASR/KSR/ RO 33 ribbons. Probably easy to get if you know what to ask the suppliers for. Roger Holmes (In England) From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Jan 17 16:43:19 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 17:43:19 -0500 Subject: offer: old book Message-ID: <200901171743.19346.rtellason@verizon.net> Got this book here, maybe somebody would care to take it off my hands and offer a little something for it? Title is "Infor World PC Secrets", by Caroline M. Halliday. Copyright date is 1992. There seems to be a couple of 5.25" floppies in a sealed pouch inside the back cover. Front cover says a whole lot that I won't detail here but includes "Covers DOS 2-5 & Windows (I'm assuming they mean 3.1 here), MCA, EISA, 286, 386, & 486 PCs". Anyone interested please feel free to contact me offlist. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From chrise at pobox.com Sat Jan 17 06:23:35 2009 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 06:23:35 -0600 Subject: Hams (was Re: thinking of selling my PDP-11/23+) In-Reply-To: References: <49717091.6020600@jbrain.com> <497172B3.5000906@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20090117122335.GV16985@n0jcf.net> On Saturday (01/17/2009 at 03:05AM -0500), Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Sat, Jan 17, 2009 at 12:54 AM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca > wrote: > > Jim Brain wrote: > > > >> Hey, Cedar Rapids, IA is frigid today, and my family wants to know how > >> cold the bottom of the world is, according to Ethan's .signature, so I told > >> them I'd check, but nothing in your .sig. > > > > So cold ... the temp froze to Ethan's server. > > Ethan may still be in the US now. > > I am indeed in the US, so I don't run the .sig program that taps the NPX WX. > > It happened to be approx -12F in Central Ohio last night and -14F at > South Pole FWIW. Was -24F here in Saint Paul, MN yesterday morning. The TV weather guys love to demonstrate pounding in a nail with a frozen banana. I'm ARO N0JCF but I was into computing long before radio. Built one of the first Motorola MEK6800-D1 eval kits in 1975 but didn't get my ham license until 1988. I have yet to meet Miss Piggy but I think I may have seen her at the grocery store the other day. Chris -- Chris Elmquist mailto:chrise at pobox.com From chrise at pobox.com Sat Jan 17 06:49:13 2009 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 06:49:13 -0600 Subject: cctech, cctalk Reply-To: header In-Reply-To: <20090117122335.GV16985@n0jcf.net> References: <49717091.6020600@jbrain.com> <497172B3.5000906@jetnet.ab.ca> <20090117122335.GV16985@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20090117124913.GW16985@n0jcf.net> Sorry for the accidental cross post to both cctech and cctalk with my reply earlier. I discovered it too late after it had already left my outbox. What causes that here though, is that there is a Reply-To: header in the cctalk traffic that says reply to "" Here are the headers from Ethan's message to which I replied, Received: by 10.214.44.8 with SMTP id r8mr4451994qar.81.1232179528123; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 00:05:28 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.214.244.3 with HTTP; Sat, 17 Jan 2009 00:05:28 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 03:05:28 -0500 From: "Ethan Dicks" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" In-Reply-To: <497172B3.5000906 at jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <49717091.6020600 at jbrain.com> <497172B3.5000906 at jetnet.ab.ca> Received-SPF: Pass; receiver=keith.ezwind.net; client-ip=209.85.221.14; envelope-from= Received-SPF: None; receiver=keith.ezwind.net; client-ip=209.85.221.14; helo=mail-qy0-f14.google.com X-Null-Tag: bbce2aa8a593173021e582017535fa67 X-Scanned-By: milter-spamc/1.13.385 (keith.ezwind.net [209.145.140.15]); Sat, 17 Jan 2009 02:05:37 -0600 Cc: Subject: Re: Hams (was Re: thinking of selling my PDP-11/23+) X-BeenThere: cctech at classiccmp.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" List-Id: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Sender: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org Errors-To: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org So, you can see that the Reply-To and the List-Id do not match the actual list they are coming from. This screws up my MUA. Chris -- Chris Elmquist mailto:chrise at pobox.com From richardlynch3 at tx.rr.com Sat Jan 17 08:29:56 2009 From: richardlynch3 at tx.rr.com (Richard Lynch) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 08:29:56 -0600 Subject: Printer ribbons In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 1/17/09 1:33 AM, "Ian King" wrote: > When I acquired my PDP-11/34, I also received a Centronics 503 printer, along > with an entire case of ribbons for said printer. They have a part number of > 63002293-5001. It's a black nylon ribbon on two spools. These are NOS. I > haven't been able to identify anything that uses them - and I mean anything, > because I can't find anything on the Web about the Centronics 503, either. > > Does anyone have any leads on this? I'd like to find that these ribbons are > worth something to someone, because I'll never use more than a few in my > lifetime but I don't want to just trash them. Thanks -- Ian > It could be a standard spool ribbon type used by printers, old typewriters, and more importantly for this list - teletypes. What is the diameter of the spools, and does it look like this: http://mytypewriter.com/ProductImages/B65_B76_M.jpg I would definitely be interested in some extras for my ASR-33. Richard From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Jan 17 18:31:31 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 17:31:31 -0700 Subject: Hams (was Re: thinking of selling my PDP-11/23+) In-Reply-To: <20090117122335.GV16985@n0jcf.net> References: <49717091.6020600@jbrain.com> <497172B3.5000906@jetnet.ab.ca> <20090117122335.GV16985@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <49727863.6050402@jetnet.ab.ca> Chris Elmquist wrote: > Was -24F here in Saint Paul, MN yesterday morning. The TV weather guys > love to demonstrate pounding in a nail with a frozen banana. They grow Banana's in Saint Paul !? From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Jan 17 18:42:56 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 16:42:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Hams (was Re: thinking of selling my PDP-11/23+) In-Reply-To: <49727863.6050402@jetnet.ab.ca> from "bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca" at "Jan 17, 9 05:31:31 pm" Message-ID: <200901180042.n0I0gunB009604@floodgap.com> > Was -24F here in Saint Paul, MN yesterday morning. The TV weather guys > love to demonstrate pounding in a nail with a frozen banana. Sounds like a different kind of ham to me. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Vote anarchist! ------------------------------------------------------------ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Jan 17 18:47:27 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 17:47:27 -0700 Subject: Hams (was Re: thinking of selling my PDP-11/23+) In-Reply-To: <200901180042.n0I0gunB009604@floodgap.com> References: <200901180042.n0I0gunB009604@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <49727C1F.9010408@jetnet.ab.ca> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Was -24F here in Saint Paul, MN yesterday morning. The TV weather guys >> love to demonstrate pounding in a nail with a frozen banana. > > Sounds like a different kind of ham to me. > Well what else can they do? Most of the time they can't predict the weather. :) From shoppa at trailing-edge.com Sat Jan 17 19:02:11 2009 From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 20:02:11 -0500 Subject: hams on classiccmp Message-ID: <20090118010212.13F68BA511D@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> N3QE, formerly KA0BTD. Got my novice ticket at age 10. I was basically inactive for 20+ years from entering college until 2007 when I started dragging out the old Heathkits from my childhood and hanging wires in the trees. Ironically, it was computers and girlfriends in college that distracted me from radio; looking back I can see that compared to ham radio they were a waste of time :-). Especially in winter I hang out on 80M CW many evenings and manage to do something for many of the big CW contests/events. Even though I've got a lot of old rigs, my preferred rig is a lowly HW-16 and my antenna is a 130 foot doublet hanging between two trees, 90 feet up, and fed by ladder line. Tim From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Jan 17 19:36:43 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 20:36:43 -0500 Subject: Hams (was Re: thinking of selling my PDP-11/23+) In-Reply-To: <49727C1F.9010408@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200901180042.n0I0gunB009604@floodgap.com> <49727C1F.9010408@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <497287AB.1080009@gmail.com> bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> Was -24F here in Saint Paul, MN yesterday morning. The TV weather guys >>> love to demonstrate pounding in a nail with a frozen banana. >> >> Sounds like a different kind of ham to me. >> > Well what else can they do? Most of the time they can't predict the > weather. :) To be fair, it's not as if that's their job. Their job is to effectively communicate the predictions of others to the general population. Peace... Sridhar From chd_1 at nktelco.net Sat Jan 17 19:43:36 2009 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H Dickman) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 20:43:36 -0500 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> References: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <49728948.6070002@nktelco.net> Al Kossow wrote: > > Wonder who else? > KA8PJB -chuck From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sat Jan 17 20:50:12 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 02:50:12 +0000 Subject: thinking of selling my PDP-11/23+ In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1232247012.25984.11.camel@elric> On Sat, 2009-01-17 at 21:10 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > I should get active, I guess. What's put me off is that 99% of the hams I > meet seem only interested by buying the latest black-ox transciever. I'm > interested in homebrrwing, restoring boatanchors, tinkering, that sort of > thing. The digital modes looked attractive at first until I realised that > for most of them you use a PC running pre-written (and often not > open-soruce!) software. No thanks. The sort of experimetnation that I am > interested in is not done with black boxes. Once again, you haven't looked very hard, have you? There are plenty of open-source implementations of digital modes out there - I use both fldigi and gmfsk for PSK and RTTY modes, mostly. If that doesn't float your boat - and I know you like to not have to rely on "black box" hardware - how about the NUE-PSK digital modem/terminal/whatever else? It is fully documented, has full source for all the firmware, and uses commonly-available parts. If you wanted to, you could just work out a way of implementing the DSP part in a DSPic and feed the demodulated text and spectrum data to whatever host machine you wanted. If no-one around you is interested in homebrewing or restoring boat anchors, has it occurred to you that you might be living in the wrong place? Here in Glasgow we have a thriving amateur radio community, where most of the younger members (at 35, that includes me! It's an aging population, sorry guys, but you know it's true...) are heavily into homebrewing and "experimental" radio. Gordon From gtn at mind-to-mind.com Sun Jan 18 00:02:04 2009 From: gtn at mind-to-mind.com (Gavin Thomas Nicol) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 01:02:04 -0500 Subject: Japanese pc emulators In-Reply-To: References: <4071.1232209198@mini> Message-ID: On Jan 17, 2009, at 2:48 PM, Christian Corti wrote: > Very nice, I have a NEC PC-100 and a Fujitsu FMR-60. But the biggest > problem apart from the Japanese keyboard and display is to find > software for these machines. And an emulator without any software is > nice, but not very useful... I think I still have PC9801 software somewhere... probably the original ASCII MINIX among others things. The most interesting thing about the PC9801 was the video memory layout and lack of a BIOS function to draw characters on a screen. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 18 01:26:27 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 23:26:27 -0800 Subject: Japanese pc emulators In-Reply-To: References: <4071.1232209198@mini>, , Message-ID: <49726923.11255.2BBFF47A@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Jan 2009 at 1:02, Gavin Thomas Nicol wrote: > On Jan 17, 2009, at 2:48 PM, Christian Corti wrote: > > Very nice, I have a NEC PC-100 and a Fujitsu FMR-60. But the biggest > > problem apart from the Japanese keyboard and display is to find > > software for these machines. And an emulator without any software is > > nice, but not very useful... > > I think I still have PC9801 software somewhere... probably the > original ASCII MINIX among others things. ...and there's always MS-DOS (DOS V) and Windoze. 386+ based NEC 9800 series also ran NT. Cheers, Chuck From chrise at pobox.com Sat Jan 17 19:25:48 2009 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sat, 17 Jan 2009 19:25:48 -0600 Subject: Hams (was Re: thinking of selling my PDP-11/23+) In-Reply-To: <49727863.6050402@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <49717091.6020600@jbrain.com> <497172B3.5000906@jetnet.ab.ca> <20090117122335.GV16985@n0jcf.net> <49727863.6050402@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20090118012548.GA16985@n0jcf.net> On Saturday (01/17/2009 at 05:31PM -0700), bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > Chris Elmquist wrote: > >> Was -24F here in Saint Paul, MN yesterday morning. The TV weather guys >> love to demonstrate pounding in a nail with a frozen banana. > > They grow Banana's in Saint Paul !? Yes... but they've had a long string of bad seasons. -- Chris Elmquist mailto:chrise at pobox.com From IanK at vulcan.com Sun Jan 18 03:01:56 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 01:01:56 -0800 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <200901171506.40639.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> <25320.1232194267@mini> , <200901171506.40639.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: Industry folks say that the lifetime of electrolytic capacitors is about fourteen years. Since the filter caps in our machines were significantly (i.e. TWICE) older than that (and some showed physical symptoms of degradation), we replaced them rather than deal with them one by one as they failed. In our experience with our PDP-10 machines, this was (despite its cost) cheap insurance against periodic failures, which can occasionally be catastrophic. The foam on the doors not only serves to cut down on dust into the machine, it also cuts down on the noise in the machine room. That makes me happy. :-) Yes, the machines can be run without it. But since our goal is restoration, we'll replace it - and yes, replace it again in ten or fifteen years. We *are* running the machine off three separate 110V single-phase circuits - apparently you missed that part. Despite your opinion that "it should be obvious", as good engineering practice I wanted to understand how the machine was using the input power before making assumptions. I'd rather spend some time in due diligence than in damage control - or fire fighting! Also, since our interest is historical restoration, we wanted to make use of the PDU as wired rather than try to bypass it with some sort of approach that would feed 110V directly to the various elements. You may be completely correct about how buildings are wired, but our building isn't wired that way. The EE on our team came up with an approach that's working for us. That raises an interesting point I forgot to mention: it's important to determine that the various subsystems are properly plugged into the PDU. When we first tried to bring up the machine, it would pop the main breaker. After some head-scratching, we determined that this was because the fan for the memory subsystem wasn't plugged into an unswitched outlet. If that fan isn't running, there's a signal from an airflow sensor that trips the main breaker! Yes, if the OS doesn't boot that means you have a problem - but what problem? DEC designed these diagnostics to tell you where that problem lies. I chose to minimize my variables. Chalk it up to a dozen years as a software quality assurance manager at Microsoft. Given the expectations of the people who sign my paycheck, I chose the conservative route. I disagree with your opinion on scoping the power supply outputs. In my colleagues' work with the PDP-10s we have, they found that 'weird' problems were often caused by an unexpectedly unfiltered DC line - and DCOK didn't cop to it. I have clean power - under load - to this machine. We have a valid 6.2 license, which is a 'period' OS for this machine. As to your assertion that we would be fine using the hobbyist license with 7.2: I'm not a lawyer, are you? I have used the 7.2 hobbyist release and PAKs for a number of years on several of my own VAXen at home. But this is not 'at home' and I know my 6.2 license is legal and proper. ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Finnegan [pat at computer-refuge.org] Sent: Saturday, January 17, 2009 12:06 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: hams on classiccmp > From: brad at heeltoe.com [brad at heeltoe.com] > > Ian King wrote: > >I just got a VAX-11/780-5 up with VMS on TCP/IP.... > > very nice. Can you describe how it went? Was the 780 previously > in moth balls? > > -brad On Saturday 17 January 2009, Ian King wrote: > This machine was one of a pair bought from a collector who bought > from a collector who bought from...? It was interesting noting the > differences between the two: for instance, on one the black foam was > in fairly good shape (replaced it anyway), but on the other it was > falling off in chunks. Both seemed in good mechanical condition. > The next step was to ensure electrical integrity. FWIW, if you can be sure you're going to operate the machine in a relatively clean environment (eg, no carpeting or other things to generate dust), I'd forgo the filter foam, as all it'll do is crumble and block airflow. > So I replaced every electrolytic capacitor of consequence in the > switching power supplies - five in one machine, six in the other - > plus the LSI-11 boot machine and RX01 boot floppy. This was > expensive! This also seems unnecessary if the capacitors were still good. The 11/780 I got up and running has one bad psu (de-asserts DCOK every once in a while, and causes the machine to reboot) which may be bad capacitors, but everything else was ok, despite being stored for over 10 years. > After all of this, we carefully brought up the machine. We had a > challenge because 120V three phase doesn't seem to be usual practice > in US wiring - we had 240V three phase, but that obviously wasn't > going to do us any good! Carefully looking through the power > distribution unit's engineering drawings, it became clear that DEC > used three-phase simply to balance the current load among the legs - > in fact, everything runs on 120V. So we used equal care in reviewing > the wiring of the warehouse where we keep these machines and found > three outlets that were (a) on the same side of the 240V mains and > (b) not sharing a breaker and circuit. Those were connected to a > three-phase outlet, the VAXen were plugged in and voila! NOTE: we > have a team member experienced with commercial power circuits. Don't > try this at home - or if you do, be very very careful and be certain > that, from any of the three live blades to another, you don't have > more than 120V. First, I want to point out that all of the power outlets on the PDU are 120V, 20A (NEMA 5-20R) outlets, so it should be somewhat obvious from that, that the machine doesn't need three phase power to run, no engineering drawings required. :) Also, your statements about three phase power aren't quite valid. You may have had three-phase 240V, but that is unlikely, the typical practice in the US for non-motor loads (lighting, general power usage) is 120/208V three phase or 120/240V single phase. In normal use, the three phase connections on the VAX PDU have 208V between them, and 120V to ground, which is a standard 120/208V three phase system. You can run the machine off of single phase power by chosing up to three separate 120V circuits - it's ok if they're on different phases, having 240V phase-to-phase is OK - and running each one to a different phase, and tying all the neutrals together to the neutral in the machine. In fact, it is a good idea to make sure that you have different phases, so that you minimize the neutral current, otherwise you may end up with melted wiring or fire, and selecting opposite phases will do this for you, as the netural current from opposite phases will cancel either other out. Fortunately, an 11/780 doesn't draw nearly the outlet/PDU rating; I think I measured around 24A total draw at 120V from all three phases on mine, and load didn't raise that too much. I've run it from three 15A circuits (in a building with 120/208V power that I'm not allowed to put in my own outlet for it ;), and it was ok, each phase was around 8A max. > Now that the machines would power up, I scoped all the power supply > voltages to ensure they were really DC, i.e. that I hadn't missed an > important filter cap anywhere. All good, so I tried booting from the > floppies we got with the machines. Fun. I'd suggest putting a scope (or even better a one-shot that triggers when they go off) "DCOK" and "ACOK" outputs from the PSUs as more important; checking voltages with a DMM is probably more useful. > I was able to get the basic > console to boot - hooray! - but was unable to get the > microdiagnostics to run. We had agreed that successful execution of > the low-level diagnostics was a precursor to any attempt to install > the OS, so this was a roadblock. Your OS is probably the best diagnostic that you have. If it doesn't boot, or crashes, there's something wrong, which you can pick a precise diagnostic to examine the problem. Diagnostics sometimes find problems that don't really exist, and miss things that are show-stoppers. > We had CDROM media for OpenVMS 6.2, the latest version certified for > the VAX-11/785 7.x works fine. > Now we were cooking with gas. I had a valid VMS license but not a > UCX license. You should be able to use the hobbyist license, unless you're planning on running the machine commercially. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Jan 18 08:57:58 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 09:57:58 -0500 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: References: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> <200901171506.40639.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200901180957.58579.pat@computer-refuge.org> > > On Saturday 17 January 2009, Ian King wrote: > > > This machine was one of a pair bought from a collector who bought > > > from a collector who bought from...? It was interesting noting > > > the differences between the two: for instance, on one the black > > > foam was in fairly good shape (replaced it anyway), but on the > > > other it was falling off in chunks. Both seemed in good > > > mechanical condition. The next step was to ensure electrical > > > integrity. > > > I wrote: > > > > FWIW, if you can be sure you're going to operate the machine in a > > relatively clean environment (eg, no carpeting or other things to > > generate dust), I'd forgo the filter foam, as all it'll do is > > crumble and block airflow. > > > > > So I replaced every electrolytic capacitor of consequence in the > > > switching power supplies - five in one machine, six in the other > > > - plus the LSI-11 boot machine and RX01 boot floppy. This was > > > expensive! > > > > This also seems unnecessary if the capacitors were still good. The > > 11/780 I got up and running has one bad psu (de-asserts DCOK every > > once in a while, and causes the machine to reboot) which may be bad > > capacitors, but everything else was ok, despite being stored for > > over 10 years. On Sunday 18 January 2009, Ian King wrote: > Industry folks say that the lifetime of electrolytic capacitors is > about fourteen years. Since the filter caps in our machines were > significantly (i.e. TWICE) older than that (and some showed physical > symptoms of degradation), we replaced them rather than deal with them > one by one as they failed. In our experience with our PDP-10 > machines, this was (despite its cost) cheap insurance against > periodic failures, which can occasionally be catastrophic. That's an "average" lifetime, which doesn't take into account things like the quality, brand, etc, of the capacitors in question. Yes, some of them may fail, and replacing ones that are actually bad (ether through physical or ESR-meter examination) is a good idea, but just replacing them randomly seems like a bad idea. The replacements are likely of a lower quality than the ones made 20+ years ago, and may actually fail sooner than the ones in the machine. Also, those power supplies aren't unobtanium, and blowing up a cap is unlikely to kill the rest of the machine. If you're going to go replacing caps, why stop there? Why not replace all of the tantalum or electrolytic bypass caps on all of the boards, which are as likely to have issues and cause a "catastrophic" failure. > The foam on the doors not only serves to cut down on dust into the > machine, it also cuts down on the noise in the machine room. That > makes me happy. :-) Yes, the machines can be run without it. But > since our goal is restoration, we'll replace it - and yes, replace it > again in ten or fifteen years. Noise abatement is a good thing, but I guess I'd be surprised if they make a noticeable difference. I've never tried it. > We *are* running the machine off three separate 110V single-phase > circuits - apparently you missed that part. I never said that you weren't. I was suggesting to anyone reading the thread how one can figure it out. You said that you were doing this in your original email. > Despite your opinion > that "it should be obvious", as good engineering practice I wanted to > understand how the machine was using the input power before making > assumptions. I'd rather spend some time in due diligence than in > damage control - or fire fighting! You seem to have missed the smiley at the end of that sentence. > Also, since our interest is > historical restoration, we wanted to make use of the PDU as wired > rather than try to bypass it with some sort of approach that would > feed 110V directly to the various elements. Also, I didn't suggest that. The PSU provides important protection by shutting down the machine if the fans stop working, or the machine overheats. > > > After all of this, we carefully brought up the machine. We had a > > > challenge because 120V three phase doesn't seem to be usual > > > practice in US wiring - we had 240V three phase, but that > > > obviously wasn't going to do us any good! Carefully looking > > > through the power distribution unit's engineering drawings, it > > > became clear that DEC used three-phase simply to balance the > > > current load among the legs - in fact, everything runs on 120V. > > > So we used equal care in reviewing the wiring of the warehouse > > > where we keep these machines and found three outlets that were > > > (a) on the same side of the 240V mains and (b) not sharing a > > > breaker and circuit. Those were connected to a three-phase > > > outlet, the VAXen were plugged in and voila! NOTE: we have a > > > team member experienced with commercial power circuits. Don't > > > try this at home - or if you do, be very very careful and be > > > certain that, from any of the three live blades to another, you > > > don't have more than 120V. > > > > First, I want to point out that all of the power outlets on the PDU > > are 120V, 20A (NEMA 5-20R) outlets, so it should be somewhat > > obvious from that, that the machine doesn't need three phase power > > to run, no engineering drawings required. :) > > > > Also, your statements about three phase power aren't quite valid. > > You may have had three-phase 240V, but that is unlikely, the > > typical practice in the US for non-motor loads (lighting, general > > power usage) is 120/208V three phase or 120/240V single phase. In > > normal use, the three phase connections on the VAX PDU have 208V > > between them, and 120V to ground, which is a standard 120/208V > > three phase system. > > > > You can run the machine off of single phase power by chosing up to > > three separate 120V circuits - it's ok if they're on different > > phases, having 240V phase-to-phase is OK - and running each one to > > a different phase, and tying all the neutrals together to the > > neutral in the machine. In fact, it is a good idea to make sure > > that you have different phases, so that you minimize the neutral > > current, otherwise you may end up with melted wiring or fire, and > > selecting opposite phases will do this for you, as the netural > > current from opposite phases will cancel either other out. > > > > Fortunately, an 11/780 doesn't draw nearly the outlet/PDU rating; I > > think I measured around 24A total draw at 120V from all three > > phases on mine, and load didn't raise that too much. I've run it > > from three 15A circuits (in a building with 120/208V power that I'm > > not allowed to put in my own outlet for it ;), and it was ok, each > > phase was around 8A max. > You may be completely > correct about how buildings are wired, but our building isn't wired > that way. The EE on our team came up with an approach that's working > for us. I said that it's possible that it's 240V three phase, but most other people aren't going to encounter that when plugging in the machine. The most important part of what I mentioned, which you skipped over, is that you should try to put the three legs of the vax PSU on at least two different phases (two on one, one on the other), so that you minimize the neutral current. Your electrical guy, having put them all on the same phase, so that there isn't any delta-V between the hot phases, may be helping your machine's PDU/power cord start a fire by overloading the neutral conductor. In the best case, it'll just nuisance trip the main breaker (I can't remeber off-hand if the neutral conductor is run through the breaker or not). IME it's unlikely because of the currents involved, but it is possible, and important to be careful to avoid. Also, "working for us" doesn't mean safe or correctly wired.. Not to go doubting your EE friend whom I don't know, but it's possible to wire things with in many ways that "work" but are unsafe (eg, it's possible to wire your house using metal coat hangers, but not suggested :). > That raises an interesting point I forgot to mention: it's important > to determine that the various subsystems are properly plugged into > the PDU. When we first tried to bring up the machine, it would pop > the main breaker. After some head-scratching, we determined that > this was because the fan for the memory subsystem wasn't plugged into > an unswitched outlet. If that fan isn't running, there's a signal > from an airflow sensor that trips the main breaker! Yes, I had a similar problem when I had unplugged everything (including the fans) from the PDU to check out parts without powering up everything. The maintenance manual made it easy to track down what was happening there. > > > Now that the machines would power up, I scoped all the power > > > supply voltages to ensure they were really DC, i.e. that I hadn't > > > missed an important filter cap anywhere. All good, so I tried > > > booting from the floppies we got with the machines. > > > > Fun. I'd suggest putting a scope (or even better a one-shot that > > triggers when they go off) "DCOK" and "ACOK" outputs from the PSUs > > as more important; checking voltages with a DMM is probably more > > useful. > > > > > I was able to get the basic > > > console to boot - hooray! - but was unable to get the > > > microdiagnostics to run. We had agreed that successful execution > > > of the low-level diagnostics was a precursor to any attempt to > > > install the OS, so this was a roadblock. > > > > Your OS is probably the best diagnostic that you have. If it > > doesn't boot, or crashes, there's something wrong, which you can > > pick a precise diagnostic to examine the problem. Diagnostics > > sometimes find problems that don't really exist, and miss things > > that are show-stoppers. > Yes, if the OS doesn't boot that means you have a problem - but what > problem? DEC designed these diagnostics to tell you where that > problem lies. Right, if the OS doesn't boot, then you have a problem, and it's time to pull out the diags. If it does boot, and appears to run ok, it's unlikely that you have a problem. If diagnostics are hard to find (as it was in your case), I'd much rather have a working machine than not use a machine because it's hard to find diagnostics. > I disagree with your opinion on scoping the power supply outputs. In > my colleagues' work with the PDP-10s we have, they found that 'weird' > problems were often caused by an unexpectedly unfiltered DC line - > and DCOK didn't cop to it. I have clean power - under load - to this > machine. VAXes are somewhat newer than PDP-10s and thus probably have smarter PSUs. Scoping the power lines is a reasonable idea, but DCOK is more likely to catch issues like what I had than staring at a trace on a scope. I never said that scoping the power lines wasn't a good idea, I just suggested that the DCOK/ACOK lines are a good idea to pay attnetion to, as they'll actually cause the machine to reboot if they are triggered. > > > We had CDROM media for OpenVMS 6.2, the latest version certified > > > for the VAX-11/785 > > > > 7.x works fine. > > > > > Now we were cooking with gas. I had a valid VMS license but not > > > a UCX license. > > > > You should be able to use the hobbyist license, unless you're > > planning on running the machine commercially. > We have a valid 6.2 license, which is a 'period' OS for this machine. > As to your assertion that we would be fine using the hobbyist > license with 7.2: I'm not a lawyer, are you? I have used the 7.2 > hobbyist release and PAKs for a number of years on several of my own > VAXen at home. But this is not 'at home' and I know my 6.2 license > is legal and proper. Are you planning on using the VAX for anything related to a business or commercial enterprise? If not, you should be able to use the hobbyist license. "At home" has nothing to do with it; you could be out of license by using it for a home-based business, but fine with the license using it for a computer club at a warehouse somewhere. Anyways, I'd rather run something period (you can find at least VMS 3.x by asking people here) or the latest version that'll run, unless you have some historical interest in 6.2 specifically. Pat (BSCompE 2004, EIT, need to get off my ass this year and take the PE exam) -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From feedle at feedle.net Sun Jan 18 10:12:45 2009 From: feedle at feedle.net (C. Sullivan) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 08:12:45 -0800 Subject: Hams (was Re: thinking of selling my PDP-11/23+) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <32AF2AAA-3254-4CFE-8857-9153C0E1650C@feedle.net> On Jan 16, 2009, at 9:15 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Fri, Jan 16, 2009 at 9:25 PM, Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ > wrote: >> On Fri, 2009-01-16 at 15:04 -0200, Alexandre Souza wrote: >> >>> Pu1BZZ Alexandre :) >> >> Wait, wait, you're another radio amateur? Not surprised there's a >> crossover with classic computing. Wonder who else? > > N8TVD N0DOS. No, I'm not kidding, look it up. From bob at copenhagen.cuug.ab.ca Sun Jan 18 11:53:14 2009 From: bob at copenhagen.cuug.ab.ca (Bob Bramwell) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 13:53:14 -0400 Subject: FREE: misc small hardware (mostly SUN) Message-ID: <54E9CCD0-ED9D-44BA-9C02-8EC234F9913A@copenhagen.cuug.ab.ca> Greetings all, I'm afraid I don't follow this list much any more so I don't know if anything on the following list will be of any interest to anybody. Since I can't bear to throw it away (sorry: recycle it...) without at least asking, here I am. It is all small stuff and all I want in return is however much it costs for me to ship it to the recipient. Without further ado: 1 x Monitor Miser for SUN keyboard/mouse (gizmo that controls monitor AC power based on user activity) 2 x SUN DIN -> audio in/out cables (probably Sparc LX related) 2 x Female 13W3 - Male VGA adapter cables (approx. 18" long) 1 x 13W3 M - M (basic SUN monitor cable) 1 x VGA M - F (extension) cable (approx. 6' long) 1 x M VGA - RGBVH BNC cable 2 x M 13W3 - RGB + sync (?) BNC cables (probably for older SUN monitors) 1 x 13W3 M - F (extension) cable 1 x F 13W3 -> M VGA adapter plug (may be from SGI) 1 x Apple MIDI adapter (really ancient) 1 x SparcBook 3 AC adapter 1 x SparcBook 3 SCSI adapter cable 1 x Sparc 10 external speaker 1 x SUN power supply (PN 300-1038-04 - Sparc 2?) 1 x SUN power supply (PN 300-1055-05 - Sparc 2?) 1 x Sony power supply (PN 68-1125-41, Model APS 24) 1 x SUN optical mouse pad (402105-003A) - assorted narrow SCSI cables and terminators, various lengths various connectors. Go ahead and ask me. 1 x SUN Fast Ethernet (100-baseTX) SBUS card (PN 501-2702919...) 2 x SUN CG3 (8-bit framebuffer, 13W3 connector) SBUS cards (PN 501-1718048449) 1 x SUN TGX1 (8-bit framebuffer, 13W3 connector) SBUS card (PN 501-2325207994) 1 x SUN SunSwift (Fast/Wide SCSI + 100-baseTX) SBUS card (PN 501-2739046491) 1 x Magma SP16 (16 port RS232 serial) SBUS card 1 x SUN X3652A Ultra 2 Creator (3D 24-bit frambebuffer, 13W3 connector) 4 x SUN X7003A memory (64M each, 2 cards/"kit") 1 x SUN X7002A memory (64M; just the one card) 4 x SUN X7001A memory (32M each, 2 cards/"kit") All this stuff is salvaged and was working fine when it came out, but that was quite a few years back: caveat receptor. I also have a SunBlade 100 system (1G memory, 2 x 120G IDE, type-5 USB keyboard, USB mouse) but I'd actually like to see if I can squeeze a few bucks out of that. Offers are welcome. Please contact me off-list with questions and requests. In another couple of weeks it will be out of here one way or another. Many thanks for your attention-span. Bob Bramwell | The birds have vanished into the sky, | and now the last cloud drains away. +1 902 531 2289 | We sit together, the mountain and I, | until only the mountain remains. | - Li Po, 8th Century Chinese poet From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 18 11:49:30 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 17:49:30 +0000 (GMT) Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: from "Ian King" at Jan 18, 9 01:01:56 am Message-ID: > > Industry folks say that the lifetime of electrolytic capacitors is > about fourteen years. Since the filter caps in our machines were > significantly (i.e. TWICE) older than that (and some showed physical Odd... I run machines considerably older than a VAX-11 and have not had to replace that many electrolytic caps. Yes, I've had the odd one fail, but by no means all of them. I think I've replaced a couple in HP desktop calculators and none at all in the PDP11s and the PDP8/e I would guess I'd replaced many more TTL chips than capacitors in all the machines I've restored. > symptoms of degradation), we replaced them rather than deal with them > one by one as they failed. In our experience with our PDP-10 machines, > this was (despite its cost) cheap insurance against periodic failures, > which can occasionally be catastrophic. That depends, a lot, on the PSU design. Certainly SMPSUs can do some very odd things if a capacitor goes open-circuit or just high ESR. How much damage that does to the rest of the PSU or worse the rest of the machine depends on the design. > I disagree with your opinion on scoping the power supply outputs. In > my colleagues' work with the PDP-10s we have, they found that 'weird' > problems were often caused by an unexpectedly unfiltered DC line - and > DCOK didn't cop to it. I have clean power - under load - to this machine. I'll agree with you there. A lot of very obscure problems end up being traced to {SU problems, either low outputs, or excessve ripple, or spikes on the output, or.... I always stick a 'scope on them. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 18 11:41:53 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 17:41:53 +0000 (GMT) Subject: thinking of selling my PDP-11/23+ In-Reply-To: <1232247012.25984.11.camel@elric> from "Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ" at Jan 18, 9 02:50:12 am Message-ID: > > On Sat, 2009-01-17 at 21:10 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I should get active, I guess. What's put me off is that 99% of the hams I > > meet seem only interested by buying the latest black-ox transciever. I'm > > interested in homebrrwing, restoring boatanchors, tinkering, that sort of > > thing. The digital modes looked attractive at first until I realised that > > for most of them you use a PC running pre-written (and often not > > open-soruce!) software. No thanks. The sort of experimetnation that I am > > interested in is not done with black boxes. > > Once again, you haven't looked very hard, have you? There are plenty of No, I haven't. I can't possibly read every mailing list/newsgroup/(paper) magazine that relates to all of my interests (which extend beyond old electronics). > open-source implementations of digital modes out there - I use both > fldigi and gmfsk for PSK and RTTY modes, mostly. The problem is that it's next-to-impossible to do a meaningful web search for something that migth not ecven exist (like an open-source ham radio related program). And printed magazines rarely, if ever, consider the open-source versions. I used to read a photographic magazine (until it went almost exclusively digital), when I was reading it, it kept on about how to do things in Adobe Photoshop and never mentioned GIMP. It never said which, if any, digital camareas could be used sensibly with open-source unix-like OSes. I no longer read a (modern) electronics mag at all. The last one I kept reading was Elektor, I gave up because it described the (free as in beer) tools for some microcontrollers, never mentioend there were open-source alternatives. I must admit that's where I got my erroneous idea that the only way to use many of these devices was with a modern PC running Windows. [...] > If no-one around you is interested in homebrewing or restoring boat > anchors, has it occurred to you that you might be living in the wrong > place? Here in Glasgow we have a thriving amateur radio community, Oh, doubtless I am. But he cost and logistics of moving rather means I am stuck here for the near future. > where most of the younger members (at 35, that includes me! It's an > aging population, sorry guys, but you know it's true...) are heavily > into homebrewing and "experimental" radio. You are very lucky. Again, perhaps I've not looked very hard, but I know of one group that holds local-ish meetings that in interested in hardware hacking, electronics, engieering, etc. That group is HPCC (!). -tony From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun Jan 18 12:35:30 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 18:35:30 +0000 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1232303730.25984.17.camel@elric> On Sun, 2009-01-18 at 17:49 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Industry folks say that the lifetime of electrolytic capacitors is > > about fourteen years. Since the filter caps in our machines were > > significantly (i.e. TWICE) older than that (and some showed physical > > Odd... I run machines considerably older than a VAX-11 and have not had > to replace that many electrolytic caps. Yes, I've had the odd one fail, > but by no means all of them. I think I've replaced a couple in HP > desktop calculators and none at all in the PDP11s and the PDP8/e I repair a lot of synthesizers, some of which have truly horrible linear power supplies which are terribly undercooled. Lots of people bang on about how the capacitors only last 15 years and become dried out from the heat and need replaced. Well, I've changed one electrolytic cap, dozens of rectifiers (bridges and diodes), and resoldered hundreds of dry joints. Caps are the last thing I look at. Plus, if a power supply cap is on the way out, you'll get audible hum which is a dead giveaway. Gordon From bob at jfcl.com Sun Jan 18 12:52:38 2009 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 10:52:38 -0800 Subject: Running 3 phase 780s on single phase power (was RE: hams on classiccmp) In-Reply-To: References: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> <25320.1232194267@mini> , <200901171506.40639.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <00e101c9799d$efa14600$cee3d200$@com> >Ian King (IanK at vulcan.com) wrote: >We *are* running the machine off three separate 110V single-phase circuits - >apparently you missed that part. People need to understand the danger in this - in any multiphase power system, the neutral current is the DIFFERENCE of the current in the individual phases. If the load is perfectly balanced, then the neutral current will be zero. But, if you run the same load from three separate single phase circuits and (worst case) the three circuits are all the same phase, then the neutral current will be the SUM of all three phase currents. That's 3 times what it would be otherwise and runs a serious danger of melting the neutral and starting a fire. Actually I thought the DEC power controllers had a circuit breaker in the neutral leg too just to prevent somebody from doing something like this. The split phase models do - are the three phase power controllers different ? Bob From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 18 13:09:11 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 11:09:11 -0800 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <1232303730.25984.17.camel@elric> References: , <1232303730.25984.17.camel@elric> Message-ID: <49730DD7.1540.2E4364EF@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Jan 2009 at 18:35, Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: > I repair a lot of synthesizers, some of which have truly horrible linear > power supplies which are terribly undercooled. Lots of people bang on > about how the capacitors only last 15 years and become dried out from > the heat and need replaced. Well, I've changed one electrolytic cap, > dozens of rectifiers (bridges and diodes), and resoldered hundreds of > dry joints. Caps are the last thing I look at. Plus, if a power supply > cap is on the way out, you'll get audible hum which is a dead giveaway. Most of the electrolytic problems I've seen associated with age have been with the ones inside of sealed "wall warts" where the heat from the transformer eventually cooks the juices out of them. Short of cracking open a fused-together housing, the only viable alternative is to replace the whole thing. How I hate those things! No standard on the connectors--a wart putting out 20vac will often have the same plug as one putting out 3vdc, they often don't have the same brand on them as the device they're powering, take up 2 or more slots on a power strip and can't be reliably operated from a power strip mounted under a table top, lousy wire leads and hidden fuses. The nadir of 20th century technological innovation... Cheers, Chuck From sellam at vintagetech.com Sun Jan 18 13:28:59 2009 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 11:28:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Need assistance in Land O' Lakes Florida (near Tampa) Message-ID: Someone in Land O' Lakes, Florida wants to give me a MacTV, which I really want, but they want to utilize the packing services of the UPS store, which usually sucks and is overpriced. Is someone in that area who would be willing to go retrieve the item, pack it to my specs, and send it off? I'll be paying for packing materials and the shipping of course, and will owe a big favor (or perhaps trade for something that you may want). Please contact me directly if you can help. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From brad at heeltoe.com Sun Jan 18 13:40:02 2009 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 14:40:02 -0500 Subject: xenix redux (or, how to bring back a dead xenix pc) In-Reply-To: References: <26194.1232195719@mini> Message-ID: <11039.1232307602@mini> Christian Corti wrote: > >Well, ESDI controller are so-called intelligent controllers. You can't I misspoke. It is an rll disk. The bios (and linux) need to know the CHS. For some reason both default to 36 sectors per track but it was formatted with only 34. >> and viola! I could see all the files and could make a tar file of that was a joke. -brad From brad at heeltoe.com Sun Jan 18 13:43:34 2009 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 14:43:34 -0500 Subject: xenix redux (or, how to bring back a dead xenix pc) In-Reply-To: <497247E8.4060300@mdrconsult.com> References: <200901171554.n0HFs7JO010040@floodgap.com> <497247E8.4060300@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <11166.1232307814@mini> Doc Shipley wrote: > > And possibly the disk image, suitably sanitized? If necessary, I can >host it short-term. I think I can do that. Good idea. (fun too!) -brad From rick at rickmurphy.net Sun Jan 18 13:52:14 2009 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 14:52:14 -0500 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <20090116.233145.17072.0@webmail06.vgs.untd.com> References: <20090116.233145.17072.0@webmail06.vgs.untd.com> Message-ID: <200901181952.n0IJqEpg007990@rickmurphy.net> At 02:31 AM 1/17/2009, jeff.kaneko at juno.com wrote: >Wow, an EXTRA w/o the obligatory vanity call (or at least the >usual 1x2 or 2X1). That's pretty rare . . . . What's wrong with vanity calls? :-) 73 de K1MU -Rick From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Sun Jan 18 14:01:43 2009 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko at juno.com) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 20:01:43 GMT Subject: hams on classiccmp Message-ID: <20090118.120143.17375.0@webmail10.vgs.untd.com> -- Rick Murphy wrote: >At 02:31 AM 1/17/2009, jeff.kaneko at juno.com wrote: > >>Wow, an EXTRA w/o the obligatory vanity call (or at least the >>usual 1x2 or 2X1). That's pretty rare . . . . > >What's wrong with vanity calls? :-) >73 de K1MU > -Rick Oh, I have nothing against vanities, it's just that they're so commonplace now, it's almost unusual to see an extra w/o one. Although I did find that 2x1 calls took a little getting used to . . . . ____________________________________________________________ Chart your path to success with a smart new business plan. Click here! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw3BIsYTBQcKPeYaAJZBl0E6NGeUmKZdbLeIq33mL84rmz92O/ From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sun Jan 18 14:43:08 2009 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 12:43:08 -0800 Subject: FREE: misc small hardware (mostly SUN) In-Reply-To: <54E9CCD0-ED9D-44BA-9C02-8EC234F9913A@copenhagen.cuug.ab.ca> References: <54E9CCD0-ED9D-44BA-9C02-8EC234F9913A@copenhagen.cuug.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200901181243.08981.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Bob, On Sunday 18 January 2009, Bob Bramwell wrote: > Greetings all, > > I'm afraid I don't follow this list much any more so I don't know > if anything on the following list will be of any interest to > anybody. Since I can't bear to throw it away (sorry: recycle it...) > without at least asking, here I am. It is all small stuff and all > I want in return is however much it costs for me to ship it to the > recipient. Without further ado: > > 1 x Monitor Miser for SUN keyboard/mouse (gizmo that controls --snip-- You might want to try the "Suns at home" list as well: suns-at-home at net-kitchen.com Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jan 18 15:22:02 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 21:22:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <49730DD7.1540.2E4364EF@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 18, 9 11:09:11 am Message-ID: > Most of the electrolytic problems I've seen associated with age have > been with the ones inside of sealed "wall warts" where the heat from > the transformer eventually cooks the juices out of them. Short of > cracking open a fused-together housing, the only viable alternative > is to replace the whole thing. A lot of wall-warts over here are held together with screws, often with 'security' heads (why???). At least they can be opened and repaired, although whether it's worth doing is debatable. > > How I hate those things! No standard on the connectors--a wart So do I, but for a rather different reason. I think they're unsafe. The normal UK mains plug contains a cartridge fuse (the plug is rated to carry 13A, the circuit it's plugged into is normally protected by a 30A fuse/breaker, the cartridge fuse in the plug is normally 3A, 5A or 13A). These wall-warts often contain no fuses at all, even though they plug straight into the 13A-rated socket outlet, so in the event of a fault, the plug/socket and internal wiring of the wall-wart could be carrying up to 30A _continuously_ (the circuit fuse/reaker would not operate under those conditions). One common type of 'universal' wall-wart over here has an output cable ending in a cross-shaped plug, the arms of the cross being a 2.5mm jack plug, a 3.5mm jack plug, a 2.1mm coaxial power plug and a 2.5mm version of that. Also coming out of the moulded coss are 2 short cables, one ending in a 1.3mm coaxial power plug (the old 'Walkman' type) and the other in a press-stud clip similar to that found on PP3 type 9V batteries (the indea being you can connect that in place of the battery in a radio or whatever to powerit from the wall-wart). The problem is that the press-stud contacts can easily short to the outer parts of one of the other connecotrs which can put a dead short across the output of the wall-wart. With no protecitive devices in the circuit, the transformer gets very hot and bothered. I've had them get hot enough to melt the plastic case, and after I unplugged it, I noticed that the transformer primary was still continuous, so presumably the thing would have carried on getting even hotter. > putting out 20vac will often have the same plug as one putting out > 3vdc, they often don't have the same brand on them as the device Soma 'universal' wall-warts over here have an output lead ending in a moulded 2 pin socket. You get an assortment of little adapters witha 2 pin plug on one end to fit that socket and a jack plug, coaxial power plug, or whatever on the other side to fit the equipment you want to power. The adapters fit either way round in the socket so as to be ale to have 'tip +ve' or 'tip -ve'. Anyway, I found you could buy a pack of all the adapters and also a cale with the socuket moulded on one end and, IIRC, bare wires the other. I simply fitted 4mm plugs on that end. Used with my DC bench supply or a multi-tapped transformer that I have, it'll replace just about any wall-wart. Not a solution if you don't know what the requirements of the unit you want to run are (and for some odd reason the wall-warts are often marked with their output, but the equipment is rarely marked with its power requirements). but useful if you can't find the wall-wart but know what's requried. > they're powering, take up 2 or more slots on a power strip and can't > be reliably operated from a power strip mounted under a table top, > lousy wire leads and hidden fuses. The nadir of 20th century > technological innovation... I still can't see anything wrong with a good-quality mains transformer in an earthed metal box with primary and secoondary side fuses. That's what I normally uild to replace wall-warts. -tony From djg at pdp8.net Sun Jan 18 16:38:00 2009 From: djg at pdp8.net (djg at pdp8.net) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 17:38:00 -0500 Subject: Printer ribbons (teletype) Message-ID: <200901182238.n0IMc0n30778@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> >I was checking in case they fitted my ASR33 but it uses narrower ones. >I see lots of Teletype paper and paper tape on eBay but never ASR/KSR/ >RO 33 ribbons. Probably easy to get if you know what to ask the >suppliers for. > Teletype ribbons are standard typewriter ribbons of the type with rivets /eyelets at the end to automatically change the ribbon feed direction. Should not be difficult to find. Ones with Teletype on the box occasionally show up on ebay but I haven't seen one go by recently. The Okidata Microline 80 etc ribbons are the style you need for an ASR33 and may be easier to find in a search. Random matches from search http://www.officesupplyoutfitters.com/okidataml80.html http://cgi.ebay.com/Okidata-Microline-80-82-92-Ribbons-Qty-7_W0QQitemZ260150917085QQcmdZViewItem From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jan 18 17:24:47 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 18:24:47 -0500 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <49730DD7.1540.2E4364EF@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <1232303730.25984.17.camel@elric> <49730DD7.1540.2E4364EF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Jan 18, 2009, at 2:09 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I repair a lot of synthesizers, some of which have truly horrible >> linear >> power supplies which are terribly undercooled. Lots of people >> bang on >> about how the capacitors only last 15 years and become dried out from >> the heat and need replaced. Well, I've changed one electrolytic cap, >> dozens of rectifiers (bridges and diodes), and resoldered hundreds of >> dry joints. Caps are the last thing I look at. Plus, if a power >> supply >> cap is on the way out, you'll get audible hum which is a dead >> giveaway. > > Most of the electrolytic problems I've seen associated with age have > been with the ones inside of sealed "wall warts" where the heat from > the transformer eventually cooks the juices out of them. Short of > cracking open a fused-together housing, the only viable alternative > is to replace the whole thing. > > How I hate those things! No standard on the connectors--a wart > putting out 20vac will often have the same plug as one putting out > 3vdc, they often don't have the same brand on them as the device > they're powering, take up 2 or more slots on a power strip and can't > be reliably operated from a power strip mounted under a table top, > lousy wire leads and hidden fuses. The nadir of 20th century > technological innovation... And their output is usually noisy as all hell. I hate those blasted things as well. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 18 17:34:24 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 15:34:24 -0800 Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: References: <49730DD7.1540.2E4364EF@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 18, 9 11:09:11 am, Message-ID: <49734C00.7534.2F3610A7@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Jan 2009 at 21:22, Tony Duell wrote: > A lot of wall-warts over here are held together with screws, often with > 'security' heads (why???). At least they can be opened and repaired, > although whether it's worth doing is debatable. Screws, wow. I remember seeing the transition between wart-with-6- foot-ine-cord-and-screws to screwless-no-cord in Racal-Vadic modems during the 70's. I still have the screwed-together PSUs; all of the screwless ones failed and were discarded. (Old modem PSUs are particularly useful because they supply +/-12 and +5 regulated). The ones in the USA are supposed to be at least thermally fused--but most are made in China, so who knows what's really inside. Now SMPSU wall-warts with fused-together cases are becoming more commonplace. Shame that--they could be profitably repaired. Anyway, sorry for the topic drift. Good to see that someone else hates the bloody things. Cheers, Chuck From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun Jan 18 18:03:54 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 00:03:54 +0000 Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <49734C00.7534.2F3610A7@cclist.sydex.com> References: <49730DD7.1540.2E4364EF@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 18, 9 11:09:11 am, <49734C00.7534.2F3610A7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1232323434.29240.4.camel@elric> On Sun, 2009-01-18 at 15:34 -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The ones in the USA are supposed to be at least thermally fused--but > most are made in China, so who knows what's really inside. Now SMPSU > wall-warts with fused-together cases are becoming more commonplace. > Shame that--they could be profitably repaired. If they're anything like the crappy ones that Alvarion supply with with their fixed wireless equipment - old BreezeAccess stuff - then no, they couldn't be repaired. When they fail they tend to go off with a bang, usually splitting the sealed-together case apart and leaving bare mains voltage connections and usually a radio cabinet full of shrapnel. These were made by Alvarion in Israel and seem to have been built with their typical disdain for non-Israelis. Gordon From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Jan 18 18:25:10 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 19:25:10 -0500 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200901181925.11030.rtellason@verizon.net> > > symptoms of degradation), we replaced them rather than deal with them > > one by one as they failed. In our experience with our PDP-10 machines, > > this was (despite its cost) cheap insurance against periodic failures, > > which can occasionally be catastrophic. > > That depends, a lot, on the PSU design. Certainly SMPSUs can do some > very odd things if a capacitor goes open-circuit or just high ESR. How > much damage that does to the rest of the PSU or worse the rest of the > machine depends on the design. Do you think that the designers of this stuff have learned which approaches they might want to stay away from? :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Sun Jan 18 20:50:35 2009 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko at juno.com) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 02:50:35 GMT Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp Message-ID: <20090118.185035.22733.0@webmail14.vgs.untd.com> -- "Chuck Guzis" wrote: >The ones in the USA are supposed to be at least thermally fused--but >most are made in China, so who knows what's really inside. Now SMPSU >wall-warts with fused-together cases are becoming more commonplace. >Shame that--they could be profitably repaired. > >Anyway, sorry for the topic drift. Good to see that someone else >hates the bloody things. > >Cheers, >Chuck I relish in 'repairing' these by slamming them into the concrete lab floor, beating them into submission until I can get the case to split. Then I replace the fuse (if blown and so equipped), or replace the rectifiers or filter cap, or whatever. Then I tape the rascal back together. If the xfmr winding is open, out it goes. I probably should try to repair the ones that have switchers in 'em, but I have neither the time nor the expertise . . . (sigh). ____________________________________________________________ Shop & save on a huge selection of brand name clogs. Click now! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw3K5IoDvLZxgzGLt57UrQKHQ4TVtkAxE6qtqijH0uUWLOy6q/ From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Sun Jan 18 20:56:35 2009 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 18:56:35 -0800 Subject: IMSAI 8080, Ithaca DPS-1, etc Message-ID: <3A76AECABD95490ABB037141CED5CA20@NFORCE4> I just listed a bunch of stuff over at the Vintage Computer and Gaming Marketplace including a pair of IMSAI 8080 systems, an Ithaca Intersystems DPS-1, a dual 8" drive chassis and a few other odds and ends. Hopefully some folks are interested. ----- Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum - The Vintage Computer Forums marketplace.vintage-computer.com - The Vintage Computer and Gaming Marketplace From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Jan 18 20:57:41 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 21:57:41 -0500 Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp References: <20090118.185035.22733.0@webmail14.vgs.untd.com> Message-ID: <6B668E230A6E44D2A837657AE8960A8C@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 9:50 PM Subject: Re: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp > I relish in 'repairing' these by slamming them into the concrete > lab floor, beating them into submission until I can get the case > to split. > > Then I replace the fuse (if blown and so equipped), or replace > the rectifiers or filter cap, or whatever. Then I tape the > rascal back together. If the xfmr winding is open, out it > goes. > > I probably should try to repair the ones that have switchers in > 'em, but I have neither the time nor the expertise . . . (sigh). I toss mine and get them from the local thrift for $1 or so, can't stand split open plastic cases. From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Sun Jan 18 21:15:52 2009 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko at juno.com) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 03:15:52 GMT Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp Message-ID: <20090118.191552.22733.1@webmail14.vgs.untd.com> -- "Teo Zenios" wrote: >> I probably should try to repair the ones that have switchers in >> 'em, but I have neither the time nor the expertise . . . (sigh). > >I toss mine and get them from the local thrift for $1 or so, can't >stand split open plastic cases. Actually, I don't like it either, but alot of times I have to deal with wall-warts that either have strange voltages, strange plugs, or a particularly high current rating. These usually aren't readily available at the local thrift (although I have gotten lucky). I don't bother fixing Nokia wall-warts, for example. I do have one here on my desk made for Motorola (13.5V @1500mA), though, that has been taped together. I do what I have to to keep stuff working around here . . . . ____________________________________________________________ Click to get free information on how to copy DVD's. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw2oHlnHrAuwX0fE4ZNUDUYIuz0rFcUhXX8c3rL7UnOl2uH6G/ From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 18 21:25:48 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 19:25:48 -0800 Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <20090118.191552.22733.1@webmail14.vgs.untd.com> References: <20090118.191552.22733.1@webmail14.vgs.untd.com> Message-ID: <4973823C.4525.3009E26C@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Jan 2009 at 3:15, jeff.kaneko at juno.com wrote: > I don't bother fixing Nokia wall-warts, for example. I do have > one here on my desk made for Motorola (13.5V @1500mA), though, > that has been taped together. I do what I have to to keep stuff > working around here . . . . I wonder if you could fuse the pieces back together with a little methylene chloride... Cheers, Chuck From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Sun Jan 18 21:34:23 2009 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko at juno.com) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 03:34:23 GMT Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp Message-ID: <20090118.193423.22733.2@webmail14.vgs.untd.com> -- "Chuck Guzis" wrote: On 19 Jan 2009 at 3:15, jeff.kaneko at juno.com wrote: >> I don't bother fixing Nokia wall-warts, for example. I do have >> one here on my desk made for Motorola (13.5V @1500mA), though, >> that has been taped together. I do what I have to to keep stuff >> working around here . . . . > >I wonder if you could fuse the pieces back together with a little >methylene chloride... Oh yeah, also MEK, Brake Part Cleaner, 'Super Glue' :^P. But then I'd have to split it again if I pop the fuse again. If I *really* worry about the mechanical integrity, I use a zip tie . . . ____________________________________________________________ Click now and find huge savings on quality rechargeable batteries. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw1XmCze37rl1hX3xGNCO2sN103SVOcwb46Q227OLPJKHnthU/ From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sun Jan 18 22:23:42 2009 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 23:23:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: Oxidation In-Reply-To: <200901182238.n0IMc0n30778@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> References: <200901182238.n0IMc0n30778@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> Message-ID: I'm in the process of rejuvenating an IBM model 29 keypunch, and a couple of areas have some sort of oxidation on them. The card drum is the worst: http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/CardDrum.jpg The steel parts are fine, but the rest has a white material over most of it. I'm not sure what sort of metal it is, looks a bit dark for aluminum but the white material looks similar to aluminum oxidation. What's a good approach to cleaning it up? Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From mtapley at swri.edu Sun Jan 18 18:28:12 2009 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 18:28:12 -0600 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <200901170544.n0H5iAPj027404@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901170544.n0H5iAPj027404@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 23:44 -0600 1/16/09, Jason wrote: >KB9SXO here. Got my Tech license years ago at one of those >cram-session deals through the local HAM club. Same here. Years back, I spent weeks trying to learn Morse code for a technician. My wife, listening over my shoulder while she read, picked it up far better than I did. On the way to the exam, I taught her V = I R and a few key frequencies, and urged her to take the test too. Fortunately for me, the very kind and encouraging Elmers running the test urged her to give it a shot as well. She copied completely clean Morse Code, I squeaked by with about 72%. I aced the technical stuff, she squeaked by with about 72%. We got successive call signs, KB6UOH and KB6UOI. (How romantic, eh? Together we make a good ham.) Someday we really ought to get a radio or two and *exercise* those privileges. Or hook one or more of our classic systems up to one, that would be even cooler. Maybe even on-topic. 73 de KB6UOH -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Jan 18 23:06:01 2009 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 23:06:01 -0600 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: References: <200901170544.n0H5iAPj027404@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <51ea77730901182106y64a4772drd997e7afde3ac1b6@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Jan 18, 2009 at 6:28 PM, Mark Tapley wrote: > Or hook one or more of our classic systems up to one, that would be even > cooler. Lots of packet radio gear out there for older computers. I've got a PackRat-64 (Commodore) interface I'd like to set up some day. And of course, any device with a serial port and comms software can interface to a TNC box. This reminds me of a very common salesman's pitch when I'm caught eyeing any old computer at hamfests: "Great For Packet!" -j From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 18 23:08:18 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 21:08:18 -0800 Subject: Oxidation In-Reply-To: References: <200901182238.n0IMc0n30778@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net>, Message-ID: <49739A42.17377.3067FF90@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Jan 2009 at 23:23, Mike Loewen wrote: > The steel parts are fine, but the rest has a white material over most > of it. I'm not sure what sort of metal it is, looks a bit dark for > aluminum but the white material looks similar to aluminum oxidation. > What's a good approach to cleaning it up? I seem to recall that the drums on 02x keypunches were brownish (probably an anodized coating) and silver-metallic if you scratched them or they wore through. I suspect that the drum is a magnesium- aluminum die casting. I'd try mechanical buffing either with a powered cotton buff and white rouge or a polish such as 3M 39529. Or try something from the local auto supply store for polishing alloy wheel rims. If you want to reproduce the original coating, Caswell Plating has small anodizing kits. My thoughts, anyway... Cheers, Chuck From dave at mitton.com Sun Jan 18 23:22:31 2009 From: dave at mitton.com (Dave Mitton) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 00:22:31 -0500 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <200901181621.n0IGKpWv069371@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901181621.n0IGKpWv069371@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200901190522.n0J5MltR058457@keith.ezwind.net> I don't find it at all surprising that there would be a large crossover between amateur radio and this list. I got involved with electronics and radio before computers were affordable for personal work. I got my novice ticket in 1972, but let it languish and sold off my Heathkit equipment over the years. With the removal of Morse code requirements and web sites like www.qrz.com I got my General class ticket a little over a year ago. I only had to study up on the some recent stuff and dust off some old neurons. Dave. W1MMX From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Jan 18 23:43:04 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 00:43:04 -0500 Subject: Running 3 phase 780s on single phase power (was RE: hams on classiccmp) In-Reply-To: <00e101c9799d$efa14600$cee3d200$@com> References: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> <00e101c9799d$efa14600$cee3d200$@com> Message-ID: <200901190043.04186.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 18 January 2009, Bob Armstrong wrote: > People need to understand the danger in this - in any multiphase > power system, the neutral current is the DIFFERENCE of the current in > the individual phases. If the load is perfectly balanced, then the > neutral current will be zero. > > But, if you run the same load from three separate single phase > circuits and (worst case) the three circuits are all the same phase, > then the neutral current will be the SUM of all three phase currents. > That's 3 times what it would be otherwise and runs a serious danger > of melting the neutral and starting a fire. This is exactly the point I was trying to get across. > Actually I thought the DEC power controllers had a circuit breaker > in the neutral leg too just to prevent somebody from doing something > like this. The split phase models do - are the three phase power > controllers different ? I *think* that it does, but without opening one up or digging through bitsavers, I can't remember for sure. I do seem to remember though, that the breaker has the 3 phases, neutral, and a shunt-trip run through it for thermal overload/lack of airflow. Anyways, in my experience on my 11/780 (which isn't a full config), the CPU, memory box, unibus controller, fans, 11/03, and RX01 together draw no more than a total of 24A at 120V, so it may be possible to run the system off of a single 120V supply, but I wouldn't recommend it. Adding anything like a second memory box, DU780, an RH780 or something else to the CPU (does the LSTTL in the 785 draw more or less power than the 780's cpu at their respective clock speeds?) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Jan 18 21:12:18 2009 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2009 22:12:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200901190323.WAA22986@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I still can't see anything wrong with a good-quality mains > transformer in an earthed metal box with primary and secoondary side > fuses. That's what I normally uild to replace wall-warts. Well, from the point of view of the people selling the stupid things, the thing wrong with that is simple: the cost difference isn't nearly worth it. Especially for mass-market consumer gear, almost everyone (two nines? three?) are perfectly happy with a supplied wall-wart and never have a lick of trouble with it, retiring the device long before the wall-wart fails (planned obsolescence, yay! - yes, I'm being sarcastic). Wasrranty replacement for the few cases where the wall-wart fails in-warranty costs far less than supplying a proper power supply for all units. I don't like it either. But we (FVO "we" approximating "those who care enough") will have to pay the price of a good supply one way or another in order to get a good supply, and I actually think I'd rather pay it your way; then I _know_ the supply in question. I too have some old stuff with power-brick supplies putting out voltages like regulated +5 and +/-12, typically with something like a DIN-5 connector. I treasure them. :) At $DAYJOB, among other things, we (re)sell VoIP phones, and I've noticed that they used to come with wall warts and now come with tiny little bricks with a mains-cord socket rather than mains prongs instead. They appear to be switchers, which has good sides and bad sides.... But if I want nice clean power for something of my own, I usually go linear, with substantial overdesign. Just like classic computers. Odd, that. :-) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jan 19 02:35:58 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 03:35:58 -0500 Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <4973823C.4525.3009E26C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20090118.191552.22733.1@webmail14.vgs.untd.com> <4973823C.4525.3009E26C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <49743B6E.5040701@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 19 Jan 2009 at 3:15, jeff.kaneko at juno.com wrote: > >> I don't bother fixing Nokia wall-warts, for example. I do have >> one here on my desk made for Motorola (13.5V @1500mA), though, >> that has been taped together. I do what I have to to keep stuff >> working around here . . . . > > I wonder if you could fuse the pieces back together with a little > methylene chloride... Or MEK. Peace... Sridhar From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Jan 19 07:28:08 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 08:28:08 -0500 Subject: Oxidation In-Reply-To: References: <200901182238.n0IMc0n30778@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> Message-ID: <200901190828.08997.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 18 January 2009 11:23:42 pm Mike Loewen wrote: > I'm in the process of rejuvenating an IBM model 29 keypunch, and a > couple of areas have some sort of oxidation on them. The card drum is the > worst: > > http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/CardDrum.jpg > > The steel parts are fine, but the rest has a white material over most > of it. I'm not sure what sort of metal it is, looks a bit dark for > aluminum but the white material looks similar to aluminum oxidation. I'll bet that stuff's galvanized (zinc-plated). > What's a good approach to cleaning it up? Steel wool? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Jan 19 07:43:11 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 13:43:11 +0000 Subject: Oxidation In-Reply-To: References: <200901182238.n0IMc0n30778@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> Message-ID: <4974836F.9080009@dunnington.plus.com> On 19/01/2009 04:23, Mike Loewen wrote: > > I'm in the process of rejuvenating an IBM model 29 keypunch, and a > couple of areas have some sort of oxidation on them. The card drum is > the worst: > > http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/CardDrum.jpg > > The steel parts are fine, but the rest has a white material over most > of it. I'm not sure what sort of metal it is, looks a bit dark for > aluminum but the white material looks similar to aluminum oxidation. > What's a good approach to cleaning it up? It looks to me like Mazak, which is a zinc-aluminium (and sometimes some magnesium and copper) alloy used for die-casting. You could try steel wool or a wire brush but I would bet it's badly pitted and probably needs machined. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Jan 19 09:22:59 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 10:22:59 -0500 Subject: Oxidation In-Reply-To: <200901190828.08997.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200901182238.n0IMc0n30778@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> <200901190828.08997.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: > Steel wool? No, using steel wool on many other metals will later result in more corrosion. Steel wool leaves behind tiny bits of metal embedded in the metal, and these can cause problems if there is enough moisture. -- Will From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Jan 19 09:44:58 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 07:44:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: Fujistu 600lpm band printer available Message-ID: <32363.3329.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I've got a superfluous 600lpm Fujitsu band printer that would like a new home. Currently located in Niskayuna, NY 12309. It's a big printer, and pretty heavy. I can get exact measurements if anyone needs them, but it's bigger than a washing machine. Wide carriage, 132 columns, and as far as I know, it works - it worked last time it was used, and probably even got a tuneup at the time. This was kept as a spare for a customer that used one. Problem is, that the customer's printer never really broke. These things are workhorses. I hate to see it get scrapped, but I just don't need it, and don't have space to store it. Give your cats a nice, humming, warm place to sleep! Adopt a line printer today! -Ian From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Jan 19 09:48:42 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 10:48:42 -0500 Subject: Oxidation References: <200901182238.n0IMc0n30778@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net><200901190828.08997.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: Can't you buy an Aluminum Oxide stripper? From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Jan 19 09:53:34 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 07:53:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Oxidation In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <672984.75075.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 1/19/09, William Donzelli wrote: > > Steel wool? > > No, using steel wool on many other metals will later result > in more > corrosion. Steel wool leaves behind tiny bits of metal > embedded in the > metal, and these can cause problems if there is enough > moisture. Exactly. You need to be careful using steel wool. And not only that, think of the animal rights issues. Do you have any idea how poorly they treat those steel sheep? I'd try using a solvent before using abrasives. Some kinds of corrosion come off with nothing more than Windex on a paper towel. For example, the nasty green corrosion that likes to build up on low-end tube TV chassis. I'd start with the gentle solvents and see what they do to it. Brake parts cleaner is also pretty good at getting gunk off of metal. Of course, if you use any solvents, be sure to clean them off after you're done... -Ian From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Jan 19 11:17:15 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 11:17:15 -0600 Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <49734C00.7534.2F3610A7@cclist.sydex.com> References: <49730DD7.1540.2E4364EF@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 18, 9 11:09:11 am, <49734C00.7534.2F3610A7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4974B59B.8040609@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 18 Jan 2009 at 21:22, Tony Duell wrote: > >> A lot of wall-warts over here are held together with screws, often with >> 'security' heads (why???). At least they can be opened and repaired, >> although whether it's worth doing is debatable. > > Screws, wow. I remember seeing the transition between wart-with-6- > foot-ine-cord-and-screws to screwless-no-cord in Racal-Vadic modems > during the 70's. It's always surprised me that stuff like that's legal in the US, given the nature of the power outlets; it doesn't need a lot of weight for the device plugged into the wall to tilt slightly and risk the exposure of live metal contacts (heck, normal power cords and pets are a bad enough combination :-) From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Jan 19 11:25:05 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 11:25:05 -0600 Subject: xenix redux (or, how to bring back a dead xenix pc) In-Reply-To: <26194.1232195719@mini> References: <26194.1232195719@mini> Message-ID: <4974B771.3010502@gmail.com> Brad Parker wrote: > Flush with success (don't you just love it when things actually work? :-) > I decided to try and boot it. I used a recent copy of qemu and told > it the geometry of the original disk Congrats :) It's nice when hackery like that works. > Once in linux I made an image of the disk using dd. It turns out that > the "conv=" option is very important. I used "conv=noerrors,notrunc,sync". > Originally I use "conv=noerrors" and the resulting image was bad because > the disk had errors. Yep. Note that some drives benefit from subsequent read attempts when they go bad - I've hacked together a shell script before to read a single block at a time and attempt x number of retries for bad blocks, which worked pretty well. I always intended to rewrite that script as a more useful C program, but haven't yet got the tuits together... > I then put the resulting disk image on another linux box and wrote a > tiny C program to search for valid sysv super blocks. That's a good idea. For my Tek, I managed to reverse-engineer the partition table (took a while), but your approach is probably better, given that the fs shouldn't care if you end up with extra data (from the 'next' filesystem) tacked on the end of the image. cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 19 11:38:02 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 09:38:02 -0800 Subject: Oxidation In-Reply-To: <672984.75075.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: , <672984.75075.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <497449FA.2544.33164191@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Jan 2009 at 7:53, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Exactly. You need to be careful using steel wool. And not only that, > think of the animal rights issues. Do you have any idea how poorly > they treat those steel sheep? I agree. I do a lot of power buffing, polishing etc. in my other hobby of refurbing/customizing large brass musical instruments. Steel wool is a no-no. Try whiate rouge on a sewn cotton wheel; if that doesn't do the trick, try tripoli. You'll end up removing less material than with other methods--and get a better finish. If, as someone else has suggested, there's a lot of surface pitting, the only solution I know if is to electroplate the carcass and machine it to size. Before I'd do that, I'd start looking for a replacement, however. Card drums for 029s can't be *that* rare. Keypunch pools typically kept lots of spares, with various program cards already mounted. I suspect that NOS ones are still lurking about. Cheers, Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jan 19 12:25:47 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 13:25:47 -0500 Subject: [rescue] Fujistu 600lpm band printer available In-Reply-To: <32363.3329.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <32363.3329.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4974C5AB.2000805@gmail.com> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > I've got a superfluous 600lpm Fujitsu band printer that would like a > new home. Currently located in Niskayuna, NY 12309. > > It's a big printer, and pretty heavy. I can get exact measurements if > anyone needs them, but it's bigger than a washing machine. Wide > carriage, 132 columns, and as far as I know, it works - it worked > last time it was used, and probably even got a tuneup at the time. > This was kept as a spare for a customer that used one. Problem is, > that the customer's printer never really broke. These things are > workhorses. I hate to see it get scrapped, but I just don't need it, > and don't have space to store it. > > Give your cats a nice, humming, warm place to sleep! Adopt a line > printer today! What interface? Peace... Sridhar From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Jan 19 12:28:52 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 10:28:52 -0800 Subject: Running 3 phase 780s on single phase power (was RE: hams on classiccmp) In-Reply-To: <200901190043.04186.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> <00e101c9799d$efa14600$cee3d200$@com> <200901190043.04186.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: Um, let's clarify something: there are NO three-phase components in a VAX-11. The switchers, the fans, ALL of it are single phase. Oh, there is one component that's "three phase": the power supply in the PDU itself, which generates the voltage to run the relay that switches the switched outlets. That's fused separately. And yes, the neutral leg has a breaker, too. And yes, this IS a "full config", with RH780, DW780, CI780 and (lucky us!) FP785. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Patrick Finnegan Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2009 9:43 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Running 3 phase 780s on single phase power (was RE: hams on classiccmp) On Sunday 18 January 2009, Bob Armstrong wrote: > People need to understand the danger in this - in any multiphase > power system, the neutral current is the DIFFERENCE of the current in > the individual phases. If the load is perfectly balanced, then the > neutral current will be zero. > > But, if you run the same load from three separate single phase > circuits and (worst case) the three circuits are all the same phase, > then the neutral current will be the SUM of all three phase currents. > That's 3 times what it would be otherwise and runs a serious danger > of melting the neutral and starting a fire. This is exactly the point I was trying to get across. > Actually I thought the DEC power controllers had a circuit breaker > in the neutral leg too just to prevent somebody from doing something > like this. The split phase models do - are the three phase power > controllers different ? I *think* that it does, but without opening one up or digging through bitsavers, I can't remember for sure. I do seem to remember though, that the breaker has the 3 phases, neutral, and a shunt-trip run through it for thermal overload/lack of airflow. Anyways, in my experience on my 11/780 (which isn't a full config), the CPU, memory box, unibus controller, fans, 11/03, and RX01 together draw no more than a total of 24A at 120V, so it may be possible to run the system off of a single 120V supply, but I wouldn't recommend it. Adding anything like a second memory box, DU780, an RH780 or something else to the CPU (does the LSTTL in the 785 draw more or less power than the 780's cpu at their respective clock speeds?) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Mon Jan 19 12:45:16 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 13:45:16 -0500 Subject: Running 3 phase 780s on single phase power (was RE: hams on classiccmp) References: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> <00e101c9799d$efa14600$cee3d200$@com> <200901190043.04186.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <18804.51772.327987.910712@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Ian" == Ian King writes: Ian> Um, let's clarify something: there are NO three-phase components Ian> in a VAX-11. The switchers, the fans, ALL of it are single Ian> phase. Oh, there is one component that's "three phase": the Ian> power supply in the PDU itself, which generates the voltage to Ian> run the relay that switches the switched outlets. That's fused Ian> separately. And yes, the neutral leg has a breaker, too. Ian> And yes, this IS a "full config", with RH780, DW780, CI780 and Ian> (lucky us!) FP785. Some peripherals are real three phase, though; the RP06 comes to mind. A breaker in a neutral is odd. I guess it's legal IF it's part of a set of tied-together breakers, so that tripping the neutral breaker also opens the phases. I wonder why they didn't use 3-phase power supplies; that would save space for the filter capacitors. paul From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Mon Jan 19 13:07:04 2009 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 19:07:04 +0000 Subject: Oxidation In-Reply-To: <200901190510.n0J59jJQ076599@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901190510.n0J59jJQ076599@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5F926703-EBE5-4E68-94E8-956912B86A7C@microspot.co.uk> On 19 Jan, 2009, at 05:10, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: >> The steel parts are fine, but the rest has a white material over >> most >> of it. I'm not sure what sort of metal it is, looks a bit dark for >> aluminum but the white material looks similar to aluminum oxidation. >> What's a good approach to cleaning it up? > > I seem to recall that the drums on 02x keypunches were brownish > (probably an anodized coating) and silver-metallic if you scratched > them or they wore through. I suspect that the drum is a magnesium- > aluminum die casting. > I always through they were rubber covered, but from the picture it looks like I'm wrong. My 836 (like an 026) came without its drum and I was told that all leased machines had their drums removed and the customer got to dispose of the rest. Maybe it was rubbish. A couple of them have come up on eBay in the last five years and both went for silly money which to me means there are more keypunches than drums. Roger Holmes. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 19 11:47:55 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 09:47:55 -0800 Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <4974B59B.8040609@gmail.com> References: <49730DD7.1540.2E4364EF@cclist.sydex.com>, <49734C00.7534.2F3610A7@cclist.sydex.com>, <4974B59B.8040609@gmail.com> Message-ID: <49744C4B.24985.331F5666@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Jan 2009 at 11:17, Jules Richardson wrote: > It's always surprised me that stuff like that's legal in the US, given the > nature of the power outlets; it doesn't need a lot of weight for the device > plugged into the wall to tilt slightly and risk the exposure of live metal > contacts (heck, normal power cords and pets are a bad enough combination :-) Electrical safety requirements and certification in the US is a hodge- podge of private (e.g. Underwriters Labs), state and local building code) and Manufacturers and trade associations (NEC, IEEE "green book"). Action with individual products is taken on a Federal level only when a sufficient number of episodes have shown a device to pose a danger (Consumer Product Safety Commission). AFAIK, there are no Federal standards for electrical product safety--although there are for RF emission. Basically, it's cowboy electrical safety when it comes to consumer- level mains-operated devices. Cheers, Chuck From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Mon Jan 19 13:17:07 2009 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 19:17:07 +0000 Subject: Running 3 phase 780s on single phase power (was RE: hams on classiccmp) In-Reply-To: <200901190510.n0J59jJQ076599@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901190510.n0J59jJQ076599@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <0BCF23E5-3F98-4769-8D78-C09C13F0A90F@microspot.co.uk> > >> Ian King (IanK at vulcan.com) wrote: >> We *are* running the machine off three separate 110V single-phase >> circuits > - >> apparently you missed that part. > > People need to understand the danger in this - in any multiphase > power > system, the neutral current is the DIFFERENCE of the current in the > individual phases. If the load is perfectly balanced, then the > neutral > current will be zero. > > But, if you run the same load from three separate single phase > circuits > and (worst case) the three circuits are all the same phase, then the > neutral > current will be the SUM of all three phase currents. That's 3 times > what it > would be otherwise and runs a serious danger of melting the neutral > and > starting a fire. I agree with all but the last bit, because if he's running it from three separate supplies, surely he will have three neutral conductors, so no problem. Roger Holmes (Who has a 440v three phase computer drawing 13kVA which has three phase bridge rectifiers to generate fairly ripple free DC) From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 19 13:39:13 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 11:39:13 -0800 Subject: Running 3 phase 780s on single phase power (was RE: hams on classiccmp) In-Reply-To: <0BCF23E5-3F98-4769-8D78-C09C13F0A90F@microspot.co.uk> References: <200901190510.n0J59jJQ076599@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <0BCF23E5-3F98-4769-8D78-C09C13F0A90F@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <49746661.10189.338533BA@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Jan 2009 at 19:17, Roger Holmes wrote: > (Who has a 440v three phase computer drawing 13kVA which has three > phase bridge rectifiers to generate fairly ripple free DC) What, no 40 hp MG set generating 400 Hz 3-phase? :) Cheers, Chuck From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Jan 19 13:42:31 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 11:42:31 -0800 Subject: Running 3 phase 780s on single phase power (was RE: hams on classiccmp) In-Reply-To: <18804.51772.327987.910712@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <49714627.2080001@bitsavers.org> <00e101c9799d$efa14600$cee3d200$@com> <200901190043.04186.pat@computer-refuge.org> <18804.51772.327987.910712@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: Yes, it's a ganged breaker. Plus there are breakers to each outlet on the PDU, plus there are breakers on the switchers (and other items like the LSI-11, RX01 and BBUs). Those electrons had best behave themselves.... -- Ian -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Koning Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 10:45 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: RE: Running 3 phase 780s on single phase power (was RE: hams on classiccmp) >>>>> "Ian" == Ian King writes: Ian> Um, let's clarify something: there are NO three-phase components Ian> in a VAX-11. The switchers, the fans, ALL of it are single Ian> phase. Oh, there is one component that's "three phase": the Ian> power supply in the PDU itself, which generates the voltage to Ian> run the relay that switches the switched outlets. That's fused Ian> separately. And yes, the neutral leg has a breaker, too. Ian> And yes, this IS a "full config", with RH780, DW780, CI780 and Ian> (lucky us!) FP785. Some peripherals are real three phase, though; the RP06 comes to mind. A breaker in a neutral is odd. I guess it's legal IF it's part of a set of tied-together breakers, so that tripping the neutral breaker also opens the phases. I wonder why they didn't use 3-phase power supplies; that would save space for the filter capacitors. paul From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 19 13:52:53 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 11:52:53 -0800 Subject: Oxidation In-Reply-To: <5F926703-EBE5-4E68-94E8-956912B86A7C@microspot.co.uk> References: <200901190510.n0J59jJQ076599@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <5F926703-EBE5-4E68-94E8-956912B86A7C@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <49746995.11261.3391ACF7@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Jan 2009 at 19:07, Roger Holmes wrote: > I always through they were rubber covered, but from the picture it > looks like I'm wrong. My 836 (like an 026) came without its drum and I > was told that all leased machines had their drums removed and the > customer got to dispose of the rest. Maybe it was rubbish. A couple of > them have come up on eBay in the last five years and both went for > silly money which to me means there are more keypunches than drums. Definitely not rubber covered, but with some sort of chemical or electrolytic (i.e. not paint) finish. Whether it was simple anodizing with a pigment, alodine, or something else, I don't know. It would seem that whatever was used needs to be conductive, so perhaps the brown color was intrinsic to the process. Cheers, Chuck From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Jan 19 13:59:53 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 14:59:53 -0500 Subject: Running 3 phase 780s on single phase power (was RE: hams on classiccmp) In-Reply-To: <0BCF23E5-3F98-4769-8D78-C09C13F0A90F@microspot.co.uk> References: <200901190510.n0J59jJQ076599@dewey.classiccmp.org> <0BCF23E5-3F98-4769-8D78-C09C13F0A90F@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <200901191459.53238.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 19 January 2009, Roger Holmes wrote: > > But, if you run the same load from three separate single phase > > circuits > > and (worst case) the three circuits are all the same phase, then > > the neutral > > current will be the SUM of all three phase currents. That's 3 > > times what it > > would be otherwise and runs a serious danger of melting the neutral > > and > > starting a fire. > > I agree with all but the last bit, because if he's running it from > three separate supplies, surely he will have three neutral > conductors, so no problem. Not if he uses the original pdu and original power cord, which has only a single 10AWG neutral conductor. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Jan 19 14:11:48 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 15:11:48 -0500 Subject: Running 3 phase 780s on single phase power (was RE: hams on classiccmp) In-Reply-To: <200901191459.53238.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200901190510.n0J59jJQ076599@dewey.classiccmp.org> <0BCF23E5-3F98-4769-8D78-C09C13F0A90F@microspot.co.uk> <200901191459.53238.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200901191511.49042.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 19 January 2009 02:59:53 pm Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Monday 19 January 2009, Roger Holmes wrote: > > > But, if you run the same load from three separate single phase > > > circuits and (worst case) the three circuits are all the same phase, > > > then the neutral current will be the SUM of all three phase currents. > > > That's 3 times what it would be otherwise and runs a serious danger of > > > melting the neutral and starting a fire. > > > > I agree with all but the last bit, because if he's running it from > > three separate supplies, surely he will have three neutral > > conductors, so no problem. > > Not if he uses the original pdu and original power cord, which has only > a single 10AWG neutral conductor. Ah, THAT was the missing piece... Now I understand what the concern is with this stuff! Not being familiar with these systems, is that cord hard-wired in to the computer end of things? Hooked to a single connector? Something like that? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Jan 19 14:20:40 2009 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 12:20:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <49744C4B.24985.331F5666@cclist.sydex.com> References: <49730DD7.1540.2E4364EF@cclist.sydex.com>, <49734C00.7534.2F3610A7@cclist.sydex.com>, <4974B59B.8040609@gmail.com> <49744C4B.24985.331F5666@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > > Basically, it's cowboy electrical safety when it comes to consumer- > level mains-operated devices. > ...and I much prefer that to any nanny-state nonsense that makes things so "safe" that there is literally no point to their existance. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 19 14:02:03 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 20:02:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <200901181925.11030.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Jan 18, 9 07:25:10 pm Message-ID: > > That depends, a lot, on the PSU design. Certainly SMPSUs can do some > > very odd things if a capacitor goes open-circuit or just high ESR. How > > much damage that does to the rest of the PSU or worse the rest of the > > machine depends on the design. > > Do you think that the designers of this stuff have learned which approaches > they might want to stay away from? :-) Alas my expeerience suggests the reverse. Back when computers were expensive, and chips were expensive, the manufacutrers took the trouble to put all sorts of protectinon in their machines to protect said expensive decices in the event of a failure. Now they don't bother. A triviel example, but it's almost a classic computer. As is well-known when you have a multiplexed LED display, the instantaneous current through each LED is much higher than the sort of current that you'd pass continuously to have the display at a suitable rightness. High enough that if the scanning fails for any reason, the display LEDs will be burnt out. In the HP98x0 series of machines, there are monostables triggered from the display stroe signal so that if the processor side of things malfucntions, the display will be blanked. It's impossible for one digit/column to be stuck on. They did a similar thing in the 59309 digital clock, but that's more reasonalbe since the scanning cna be derrived from an external oscillator. If you switch it to 'Ext' with no oscillator connected, then the display could be damaged without this protection circuit. But how many modern devices have such prtection circuits fitted? Darn it, many modern PSUs don't even have crowbar circuits. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 19 14:10:45 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 20:10:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <200901190323.WAA22986@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "der Mouse" at Jan 18, 9 10:12:18 pm Message-ID: > > > I still can't see anything wrong with a good-quality mains > > transformer in an earthed metal box with primary and secoondary side > > fuses. That's what I normally uild to replace wall-warts. > > Well, from the point of view of the people selling the stupid things, > the thing wrong with that is simple: the cost difference isn't nearly > worth it. Especially for mass-market consumer gear, almost everyone Alas you're right. As I've said before. if a company made a quality machine, with full tehcnicla and service doucmentation (think : those great old DEC and HP manuals) and parts backup, they'd get my business. Alas there's aren't enough peole like us in the world to make that a viable business > I don't like it either. But we (FVO "we" approximating "those who care > enough") will have to pay the price of a good supply one way or another > in order to get a good supply, and I actually think I'd rather pay it > your way; then I _know_ the supply in question. Oh, I'm happy with a commerically-built supply if I've seen the schematics, know it has adequate protective devices and know the components are adequately rated. I don't have to build it myself. > > I too have some old stuff with power-brick supplies putting out > voltages like regulated +5 and +/-12, typically with something like a > DIN-5 connector. I treasure them. :) At $DAYJOB, among other things, > we (re)sell VoIP phones, and I've noticed that they used to come with > wall warts and now come with tiny little bricks with a mains-cord > socket rather than mains prongs instead. They appear to be switchers, > which has good sides and bad sides.... You may find those SMPSU blocks will work from either 115V or 230V mains with now user adjustments. In which case all you need to do to sell the product in any country is supply the correct mains lead [1], which is probably easier than having to have a different wall-wart with the correct outputs for the product. I assume the input connector on the SMPSU is either an IEC plug or one of those figure-of-8 connectors, or at least something stnadard. [1] Don't get me started on moulded mains leads. I have about the same affection for those as I do for wall warts, and for much the same reasons. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 19 14:11:50 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 20:11:50 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <4973823C.4525.3009E26C@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 18, 9 07:25:48 pm Message-ID: > > On 19 Jan 2009 at 3:15, jeff.kaneko at juno.com wrote: > > > I don't bother fixing Nokia wall-warts, for example. I do have > > one here on my desk made for Motorola (13.5V @1500mA), though, > > that has been taped together. I do what I have to to keep stuff > > working around here . . . . > > I wonder if you could fuse the pieces back together with a little > methylene chloride... You can. Or at least I did when I repaired the SMPSU brick for a friend's (modern-ish) laptop computer. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 19 14:16:26 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 20:16:26 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <20090118.193423.22733.2@webmail14.vgs.untd.com> from "jeff.kaneko@juno.com" at Jan 19, 9 03:34:23 am Message-ID: [Fixing PSU casings together] > I'd have to split it again if I pop the fuse again. If I *really* > worry about the mechanical integrity, I use a zip tie . . . The 8V transformer blocks used with some HP calcualtors and HPIL prripherals, or at least the 230V ones, have a case with lots of cooling slots moulded into it. The input is either pair of pins to fit a French/German socket or a length of cable ending to be wired to a UK 13A mains plug depending on the version. I've found the easiest way to fix those toguether is to fit 4 rat belts through the cooling slots, one at each corner. It probably wouldn't pass a safety test, and I'd not do it on something that wasn't mine, but I sure do it for my own stuff. -tony From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon Jan 19 14:29:35 2009 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 15:29:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: Oxidation In-Reply-To: <49746995.11261.3391ACF7@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200901190510.n0J59jJQ076599@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <5F926703-EBE5-4E68-94E8-956912B86A7C@microspot.co.uk> <49746995.11261.3391ACF7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Jan 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Definitely not rubber covered, but with some sort of chemical or > electrolytic (i.e. not paint) finish. Whether it was simple > anodizing with a pigment, alodine, or something else, I don't know. > It would seem that whatever was used needs to be conductive, so > perhaps the brown color was intrinsic to the process. From what I see in the FE manuals, the starwheel sensing arms are used to mechanically close contacts and not to complete a circuit through the program drum itself. I always thought it was the latter, until I started digging into the manuals. I do have some aluminum oxidation remover which contains a small concentration of phosporic acid which I might try (on an interior section at first). A stainless steel brush might be a starting point to remove the surface layer. I'll continue to collect suggestions for a bit. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Jan 19 14:34:52 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 15:34:52 -0500 Subject: Running 3 phase 780s on single phase power (was RE: hams on classiccmp) In-Reply-To: <200901191511.49042.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200901190510.n0J59jJQ076599@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200901191459.53238.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200901191511.49042.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200901191534.52862.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 19 January 2009, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Monday 19 January 2009 02:59:53 pm Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > Not if he uses the original pdu and original power cord, which has > > only a single 10AWG neutral conductor. > > Ah, THAT was the missing piece... > > Now I understand what the concern is with this stuff! > > Not being familiar with these systems, is that cord hard-wired in to > the computer end of things? Hooked to a single connector? Something > like that? It terminates on screw terminals (which happen to be part of a 30A, 3phase EMI filter) that are on the switch-side of the PDU, under a metal cover. So, it's not that hard to remove, but it's not just a connector. IIRC, from there, it goes through the main breaker and then multiplexes out to each of the outlets on the back and the internal transformer that supplies power to run the emergency-off, power-on relay, etc. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From bob at jfcl.com Mon Jan 19 14:35:21 2009 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 12:35:21 -0800 Subject: Running 3 phase 780s on single phase power (was RE: hams on Message-ID: <013901c97a75$735bd410$5a137c30$@com> >Roy J. Tellason (rtellason at verizon.net) wrote: >Ah, THAT was the missing piece... >Now I understand what the concern is with this stuff! Right - the issue is with the original PDU, which Ian specifically said they did not rewire. That means one neutral, both inside the PDU, in the power cord, and in the power plug. The loads inside the 780 (which are single phase, as Ian said) have nothing to do with the issue. So, the 780 PDU has a three phase wye power cord (five conductors, including ground). I'm betting that they have a 220V split phase circuit to run it from, so they've wired two of the three phases together for one side of the 220V circuit, and the third phase to the other side. Best case, assuming the loads inside the 780 are balanced, that would make the neutral current the same as one of the phase currents. But that's not really a safe situation - if any of the internal loads within the 780 is turned off, disconnected, or blows its own breaker, then the neutral current will _increase_ due to the imbalance. Worst case in this situation the neutral current would be 2x normal. They probably get away with this because the PDU isn't loaded to anywhere near it's rated capacity. And let's hope they really aren't running it from three separate circuits on the same phase. Were it my 780, I'd rewire the PDU to be 220V split phase (just redistribute the third phase's outlets amongst the other two). The result would only have 2/3rds the current carrying capacity of the original, but it'd be a safe arrangement. Bob From ats at offog.org Mon Jan 19 14:43:08 2009 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 20:43:08 +0000 Subject: xenix redux (or, how to bring back a dead xenix pc) In-Reply-To: <4974B771.3010502@gmail.com> (Jules Richardson's message of "Mon\, 19 Jan 2009 11\:25\:05 -0600") References: <26194.1232195719@mini> <4974B771.3010502@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jules Richardson writes: > I always intended to rewrite that script as a more useful C program, > but haven't yet got the tuits together... Something like this? http://offog.org/darcs/misccode/pcat.c I wrote it for reading data from damaged CD-ROMs, but it sounds like it does the same job as your script. It could really do with some options, though... -- Adam Sampson From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Jan 19 14:50:06 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 15:50:06 -0500 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200901191550.06875.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 19 January 2009 03:02:03 pm Tony Duell wrote: > > > That depends, a lot, on the PSU design. Certainly SMPSUs can do some > > > very odd things if a capacitor goes open-circuit or just high ESR. How > > > much damage that does to the rest of the PSU or worse the rest of the > > > machine depends on the design. > > > > Do you think that the designers of this stuff have learned which > > approaches they might want to stay away from? :-) > > Alas my expeerience suggests the reverse. Back when computers were > expensive, and chips were expensive, the manufacutrers took the trouble > to put all sorts of protectinon in their machines to protect said > expensive decices in the event of a failure. Now they don't bother. I would suspect that a younger crop of engineers coming up might have some bearing on this too. :-) > A triviel example, but it's almost a classic computer. As is well-known > when you have a multiplexed LED display, the instantaneous current > through each LED is much higher than the sort of current that you'd pass > continuously to have the display at a suitable rightness. High enough > that if the scanning fails for any reason, the display LEDs will be burnt > out. Yes, this point is hammered on pretty well in my "8085 Cookbook", which is one handy reference I have that talks about multiplexing displays a lot. > In the HP98x0 series of machines, there are monostables triggered from > the display stroe signal so that if the processor side of things > malfucntions, the display will be blanked. It's impossible for one > digit/column to be stuck on. Right, I remember that being one suggestion as to how to deal with it. There was something not too dissimilar in my Oki 92 printer, as well. They used something like 10V for a motor holding voltage, and 30V to kick it -- but apparently you couldn't run them on 30V continuously, as the little protection circuit they put in there would integrate the applied voltage and if it saw too much over too long of a time a crowbar would go into operation and trip a breaker. > They did a similar thing in the 59309 digital clock, but that's more > reasonalbe since the scanning cna be derrived from an external > oscillator. If you switch it to 'Ext' with no oscillator connected, then > the display could be damaged without this protection circuit. > > But how many modern devices have such prtection circuits fitted? Darn it, > many modern PSUs don't even have crowbar circuits. I suspect that the answer to that one is probably "too many". :-( -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Jan 19 15:21:45 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 15:21:45 -0600 Subject: xenix redux (or, how to bring back a dead xenix pc) In-Reply-To: References: <26194.1232195719@mini> <4974B771.3010502@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4974EEE9.3080708@gmail.com> Adam Sampson wrote: > Jules Richardson writes: > >> I always intended to rewrite that script as a more useful C program, >> but haven't yet got the tuits together... > > Something like this? > > http://offog.org/darcs/misccode/pcat.c Yep :) > It could really do with some options, though... I think that's why I never quite got those tuits together... my script was a quick hack that I could edit to tweak params, rather than something with full CLI-parsing, help etc. I suppose there's a lot could be done with logging and features like changing the 'pad' byte, track zeroing/re-seeking upon bad reads, optionally swapping byte pairs etc. cheers Jules From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 19 15:29:06 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 21:29:06 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: from "Gene Buckle" at Jan 19, 9 12:20:40 pm Message-ID: > > > > > Basically, it's cowboy electrical safety when it comes to consumer- > > level mains-operated devices. > > > > ...and I much prefer that to any nanny-state nonsense that makes things so > "safe" that there is literally no point to their existance. I agree with you. The less the governement interfers with what I can do to muself and my property (without it affecting others) the better. And thus I wamt to be able to buy a 'bare' mains transformer, even though in that state it is probably not safe to use. It needs to be encased, the case needs to be earthed if metal (and I'd want to earth the transformer core in any event), it needs suitable fuses in the primary and secondary circuits and so on. It is up to me to provide such 'extras'. Equally, thouygh, if I buy something that claims to be a ready-built stand-alone PSU, such as a wall-wart, then it should be safe to use. I shouldn't have to modify it to include fuses. And as I mentioned earlier, I am not convinced that most wall-warts are safe. -tony From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Jan 19 15:38:10 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 13:38:10 -0800 Subject: Oxidation References: <200901190510.n0J59jJQ076599@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <5F926703-EBE5-4E68-94E8-956912B86A7C@microspot.co.uk> <49746995.11261.3391ACF7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4974F2C2.646D5CBC@cs.ubc.ca> Mike Loewen wrote: > I do have some aluminum oxidation remover which contains a small > concentration of phosporic acid which I might try (on an interior section > at first). A stainless steel brush might be a starting point to remove > the surface layer. I'll continue to collect suggestions for a bit. If chemical treatment or polishing is inadequate, Scotchbrite pads with water might be a next step. They can be surprisingly abrasive on soft metals (they can remove thin plating or anodising), so one wants to be gentle at first, but they are less aggressive than steel wool or wire-brushing. I haven't heard of any issues with them leaving embedded particles, as has been mentioned as a problem with steel wool. They work well for objects with odd contours or crevices. (Also good when building chassis for a final finish treatment on edges and some surfaces.) From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Mon Jan 19 16:05:33 2009 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko at juno.com) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 22:05:33 GMT Subject: hams on classiccmp Message-ID: <20090119.140533.16881.0@webmail15.vgs.untd.com> -- "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: >> Alas my expeerience suggests the reverse. Back when computers were >> expensive, and chips were expensive, the manufacutrers took the >>trouble >> to put all sorts of protectinon in their machines to protect said >> expensive decices in the event of a failure. Now they don't bother. > >I would suspect that a younger crop of engineers coming up might have >some bearing on this too. :-) Actually, I would be more likely to suspect the current crop of engineering *managers* as a more likely cause (both pointy-haired and not). "My gawd, boy, those extra bits add $0.10 to our build cost! Do we really need that for the product to meet spec?" ____________________________________________________________ Protect your hands with high quality gloves. Click now! http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw1Jw8LLo6ya1s8LS5UU5BTSFgZ2LQLPp5j3j1YpgehpHTTh8/ From frustum at pacbell.net Mon Jan 19 16:11:27 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 16:11:27 -0600 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <200901191550.06875.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200901191550.06875.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4974FA8F.4040401@pacbell.net> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Monday 19 January 2009 03:02:03 pm Tony Duell wrote: >>>> That depends, a lot, on the PSU design. Certainly SMPSUs can do some >>>> very odd things if a capacitor goes open-circuit or just high ESR. How >>>> much damage that does to the rest of the PSU or worse the rest of the >>>> machine depends on the design. >>> Do you think that the designers of this stuff have learned which >>> approaches they might want to stay away from? :-) >> Alas my expeerience suggests the reverse. Back when computers were >> expensive, and chips were expensive, the manufacutrers took the trouble >> to put all sorts of protectinon in their machines to protect said >> expensive decices in the event of a failure. Now they don't bother. > > I would suspect that a younger crop of engineers coming up might have some > bearing on this too. :-) Roy, I disagree. Your opinion (smiley and all) sounds like the "Why, we had to walk uphill to school through snowstorms, both ways! Today's kids are wimps!" There have always been both brilliant and stupid engineers, and everything in between. People today are not more stupid than those of 40 years ago. The problems that need to be solved have changed, and so have peoples' specializations. Tony has it right. The market demands low prices and doesn't demand ruggedness, so that is what gets built. From jay_k_wood at yahoo.com Mon Jan 19 13:39:06 2009 From: jay_k_wood at yahoo.com (Jay Wood) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 11:39:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: CGA monitor, 486 motherboards, cases, psu's, etc - W. Orange, NJ pickup Message-ID: <283290.61656.qm@web62401.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Referred here by Lord Nightmare... I have a Princeton Graphics 12" CGA monitor, as well as a bunch of old 486 motherboards, CPUs, cases, PSUs, memory, etc. that I don't need/want. They are free to anyone willing to pick them up in West Orange, NJ. Please contact me at jay_k_wood at yahoo.com as I don't subscribe to this list. ---- "If I want to be free from any other man's dictation, I must understand that I can have no other man under my control." -- William Graham Sumner (1840-1910) From brianlanning at gmail.com Mon Jan 19 16:53:55 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 16:53:55 -0600 Subject: Looking for a mac iifx and an apple 2e Message-ID: <6dbe3c380901191453r9061ba6iaea983320bb66d28@mail.gmail.com> Hi everyone. I'd like to add a mac iifx and a later model apple iie (or possibly a 2gs) to my collection. I might also be interested in a mac cube, a working IBM PC-AT (5170), or maybe more amiga hardware I don't have. For trade, I can offer up a working amiga 2000 with a hard drive (sans keyboard and mouse probably). I also have some video editing hardware that I believe is from the late 80s or early 90s. I have three giant professional JVC (iirc) VCRs, two playback and one record. I also have what I think is an abner 2 editing controller and a FOR-A FA740 time based corrector. I have no idea how to use the video editing stuff. This came out of a working video editing lab. I'm in the north suburbs of chicago. Let me know if you're interested. Maybe we can work something out. Thanks. brian From technobug at comcast.net Mon Jan 19 19:18:28 2009 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 18:18:28 -0700 Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <200901192329.n0JNTIRD096524@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901192329.n0JNTIRD096524@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Jan 19, 2009, at 09:47:55 -0800, Chuck Guzis" wrote: > On 19 Jan 2009 at 11:17, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> It's always surprised me that stuff like that's legal in the US, >> given the >> nature of the power outlets; it doesn't need a lot of weight for >> the device >> plugged into the wall to tilt slightly and risk the exposure of >> live metal >> contacts (heck, normal power cords and pets are a bad enough >> combination :-) > > Electrical safety requirements and certification in the US is a hodge- > podge of private (e.g. Underwriters Labs), state and local building > code) and Manufacturers and trade associations (NEC, IEEE "green > book"). Action with individual products is taken on a Federal level > only when a sufficient number of episodes have shown a device to pose > a danger (Consumer Product Safety Commission). AFAIK, there are no > Federal standards for electrical product safety--although there are > for RF emission. > > Basically, it's cowboy electrical safety when it comes to consumer- > level mains-operated devices. Basically, in the US the UL is the standard which one follows (CE if you want to go elsewhere). Failing to meet the UL/CE standards generally has force of law in the US due to the ever diligent lawyers. Failure to meet (and get fully tested and certified) opens one up to a suit where one has to prove that the design is safe. Whereas, if certified, the suer has to prove either negligence on the part of the manufacturer or show that the certification is at fault. The latter rarely happens. Extensions to the NEC (National Electrical Codes - a published standard which is implemented locally) rarely step into the areas where the UL/CE standards bear. However, some localities can't keep their hands out of the pie... Wall warts relieve the manufacturer of a product of having to certify the product to the lebenty-leben, various, multitudinous and sundry standards since the w/w manufacture does this for you. The low voltage output eliminates all the mains testing and certification. To give you an idea, the difference in testing and certifying one of our product with an internal supply and one using a wart exceeded $20k and that was over 15 years ago. Since this was a fairly low volume device you can guess the direction we went. Even using a certified power supply requires that the entry and attachment be certified if not provided by the p/s manufacturer. If one wants to be a cowboy and manufacture a consumer-level mains- operated device without certification, make sure all your assets are safely ensconced in a Cayman Island account. CRC From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Jan 19 19:47:15 2009 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 19:47:15 -0600 Subject: FFS: SX-64 Box Message-ID: <51ea77730901191747l5015ea53k10bc5c9edd9cb95d@mail.gmail.com> Nope, not "box" as in slang for "computer" or "machine." This is just the cardboard box (well ok, also the Styrofoam inserts and a plastic bag) that the SX-64 came in. No serious collector should be without one! Apparently, I'm not as serious as I thought, because I've got three SX-64s (each broken in some unique way) and I've decided the box takes up too much space. None of them matched the serial # on the box, anyway. So if anyone wants it, it's free for the cost of shipping from 60074 (or if you're local, come pick it up.) Please give it a home. Even though I've got to shrink my collection and reclaim storage space, I still can't let something as simple as an old cardboard box go to the landfill. -j -- silent700.blogspot.com Retrocomputing and collecting in the Chicago area: http://chiclassiccomp.org From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Jan 19 19:53:54 2009 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 19:53:54 -0600 Subject: FFS: SX-64 Box In-Reply-To: <51ea77730901191747l5015ea53k10bc5c9edd9cb95d@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730901191747l5015ea53k10bc5c9edd9cb95d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730901191753t239f7e0fvf338aecce14d58ab@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Jan 19, 2009 at 7:47 PM, Jason T wrote: > Nope, not "box" as in slang for "computer" or "machine." This is just > the cardboard box (well ok, also the Styrofoam inserts and a plastic > bag) that the SX-64 came in. No serious collector should be without > one! Apparently, I'm not as serious as I thought, because I've got > three SX-64s (each broken in some unique way) and I've decided the box > takes up too much space. None of them matched the serial # on the > box, anyway. Of course, I failed to post the pic I just took: http://flickr.com/photos/chiclassiccomp/3211587446/ From brian at quarterbyte.com Mon Jan 19 20:24:30 2009 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 18:24:30 -0800 Subject: Oxidation Message-ID: <4974C55E.13130.A50AF80@brian.quarterbyte.com> > Roger Holmes wrote: > > A couple of [keypunch drums] have come up on eBay in the last five > years and both went for silly money which to me means there are > more keypunches than drums. That's one interpretation, but it just considers the scarceness factor. You also have to figure in the saneness factor. If you want a punched card era memorabilis, a drum is a heck of a lot easier to ship, store and display than a whole keypunch machine. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 19 17:40:50 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 15:40:50 -0800 Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: References: <49730DD7.1540.2E4364EF@cclist.sydex.com>, <49744C4B.24985.331F5666@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <49749F02.28063.34628543@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Jan 2009 at 12:20, Gene Buckle wrote: > ...and I much prefer that to any nanny-state nonsense that makes things so > "safe" that there is literally no point to their existance. I have to admit that I'm undecided about that. If it's an item about which I can discover enough information to make an intelligent decision as to its safety, okay I'm with you. But wall warts are sealed units that give up none of their secrets on the nameplate, nor is the contents of the black blob documented. On the other hand, I bristle when I see "No customer-serviceable components inside". How do they bloody know what I can service? Cheers, Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Jan 19 21:39:08 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 22:39:08 -0500 Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: References: <200901192329.n0JNTIRD096524@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > Basically, in the US the UL is the standard which one follows (CE if you > want to go elsewhere). And if something does not have a valid UL seal of approval, it does not sell. No merchant, apart from maybe the fly by night dollar stores, will touch a non-UL listed product. ("line", not "mains" - if you are talking US electrospeak). -- Will From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Jan 19 22:32:52 2009 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 22:32:52 -0600 Subject: FFS: Atari 1025 Printer box Message-ID: <51ea77730901192032se02adedr5be417e67cf7e491@mail.gmail.com> The SX-64 box has been claimed. This is the next one up. Same deal, free for cost of shipping (I'll ship it in a larger box so the PO doesn't mar up the fine Atari graphics) from 60074. -- silent700.blogspot.com Retrocomputing and collecting in the Chicago area: http://chiclassiccomp.org From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 19 22:57:39 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 20:57:39 -0800 Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: References: <200901192329.n0JNTIRD096524@dewey.classiccmp.org>, , Message-ID: <4974E943.16337.35841B8A@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Jan 2009 at 22:39, William Donzelli wrote: > And if something does not have a valid UL seal of approval, it does > not sell. No merchant, apart from maybe the fly by night dollar > stores, will touch a non-UL listed product. How many of those made-somewhere-in-China gizmos have forged UL seals on them? Or does UL have an enforcement arm that precludes such stuff from happening? > ("line", not "mains" - if you are talking US electrospeak). I've seen both in US literature. "Mains" seems to be more common than it used to be (which was not at all). Oddly, OSHA's electric power glossary contains neither term: http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/electric_power/glossary.html "120v distribution power?" I like "mains" from a gloablspeak perspective, but I'm listening to the Beeb now... Cheers, Chuck From frustum at pacbell.net Mon Jan 19 22:59:17 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 22:59:17 -0600 Subject: the purge continues: free trs-80 stuff from austin, tx Message-ID: <49755A25.4060005@pacbell.net> There are two categories here. First is stuff free for the price of shipping. Pick it up and it is 100% free. I don't want to ship each document to a different address. Hopefully someone wants it all. TRS-80 micro computer technical reference handbook (this is for the model I) Expansion Interface Hardware manual TRS-80 Technical Manual Troubleshooting (For Radio Shack Service Centers Only) TRS-80 Model III Service Manual TRS-80 Model 4 Service Manual TRS-80 Model 100 Technical Reference Manual LDOS Quarterly, not complete, mostly copies, but not all, 81-84 Some floppy disk alignment programs and Dysan alignment disks TRS-80 Assembly Language Programming (1st ed), Bill Barden --- The next category is free, but *must* be picked up at my house. If I cared to spend the time to find a box and pack it properly, I'd put it on ebay and get my $50 or whatever. This is a TRS-80 4P in *great* shape. It has very little yellowing as it has been in a leatherette carrying case for the past 20 years. I recently took it apart and tweaked the trimmer cap so 80 column display mode is solid again. Both drives work great, and I don't know of any defects. It comes with an original in the binder TRSDOS 6.0.2 manual, a Montezuma Micro CP/M manual, and about 100 floppies. Not all the floppies are usable on this system; some came from model I systems, or were configured for double sided drives (this machine has only single sided floppies, which was the norm for the 4P). I hate to give it up, as I spent a couple years messing around one Model IIIs in high school, so come and get it before I change my mind. :-) From frustum at pacbell.net Tue Jan 20 00:32:45 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 00:32:45 -0600 Subject: Language-specific CPUs In-Reply-To: <495BFF06.7020103@pacbell.net> References: <495BCFD2.8000105@gmail.com> from Jules Richardson at "Dec 31, 8 02:02:26 pm", <200812312127.mBVLR8PQ014734@floodgap.com> <495B818C.32309.19216ECD@cclist.sydex.com> <495BFA5E.4000203@pacbell.net> <495BFF06.7020103@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <4975700D.3040506@pacbell.net> Jim Battle wrote: ... > > Chapter 8 of "Advances in Computer Architecture" describes the SYMBOL > computer, designed and built buy Fairchild Camera, and operated at Iowa > State. Only one was built. The design was started in the mid 60s. > Here is an excerpt: Tonight as I was looking for something else, I found that Gordon Bell has an entire chapter on the SYMBOL computer, and it goes into a lot more detail than the other book I referenced. As a bonus, it is online: http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/gbell/computer_structures_principles_and_examples/csp0505.htm From frustum at pacbell.net Tue Jan 20 01:20:54 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 01:20:54 -0600 Subject: the purge continues: free trs-80 stuff from austin, tx In-Reply-To: <49755A25.4060005@pacbell.net> References: <49755A25.4060005@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <49757B56.30104@pacbell.net> Jim Battle wrote: > There are two categories here. The docs are claimed. The 4P is still available for anyone willing to pick it up. > The next category is free, but *must* be picked up at my house. If I > cared to spend the time to find a box and pack it properly, I'd put it > on ebay and get my $50 or whatever. > > This is a TRS-80 4P in *great* shape. It has very little yellowing as > it has been in a leatherette carrying case for the past 20 years. I > recently took it apart and tweaked the trimmer cap so 80 column display > mode is solid again. Both drives work great, and I don't know of any > defects. > > It comes with an original in the binder TRSDOS 6.0.2 manual, a Montezuma > Micro CP/M manual, and about 100 floppies. Not all the floppies are > usable on this system; some came from model I systems, or were > configured for double sided drives (this machine has only single sided > floppies, which was the norm for the 4P). From bqt at softjar.se Mon Jan 19 15:20:04 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 22:20:04 +0100 Subject: Running 3 phase 780s on single phase power In-Reply-To: <200901191800.n0JI0DAh091509@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901191800.n0JI0DAh091509@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4974EE84.9070500@softjar.se> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Sunday 18 January 2009, Bob Armstrong wrote: >> People need to understand the danger in this - in any multiphase >> power system, the neutral current is the DIFFERENCE of the current in >> the individual phases. If the load is perfectly balanced, then the >> neutral current will be zero. >> >> But, if you run the same load from three separate single phase >> circuits and (worst case) the three circuits are all the same phase, >> then the neutral current will be the SUM of all three phase currents. >> That's 3 times what it would be otherwise and runs a serious danger >> of melting the neutral and starting a fire. > > This is exactly the point I was trying to get across. I'm not going to argue with you on this, however, see below... >> Actually I thought the DEC power controllers had a circuit breaker >> in the neutral leg too just to prevent somebody from doing something >> like this. The split phase models do - are the three phase power >> controllers different ? > > I *think* that it does, but without opening one up or digging through > bitsavers, I can't remember for sure. I do seem to remember though, > that the breaker has the 3 phases, neutral, and a shunt-trip run > through it for thermal overload/lack of airflow. > > Anyways, in my experience on my 11/780 (which isn't a full config), the > CPU, memory box, unibus controller, fans, 11/03, and RX01 together draw > no more than a total of 24A at 120V, so it may be possible to run the > system off of a single 120V supply, but I wouldn't recommend it. > Adding anything like a second memory box, DU780, an RH780 or something > else to the CPU (does the LSTTL in the 785 draw more or less power than > the 780's cpu at their respective clock speeds?) What you need to understand here, is that there is nothing in a 11/780 that is actually driven by 3-phase power. And the power controller is nothing like what you are trying to describe. The 11/780, along with very much of all DEC equipment that used 3-phase power, did it just to lessen the load per fuse, along with getting enough power to the system. If you look inside, you'll see that the 3-phase goes into a power distribution box, and from there you have a number of single-phase sockets. And they are grouped in three separate groups. Each group is driven by one phase of the 3-phase power, and the other pin is ground on all sockets. And with this kind of construction, it really isn't any problem at all in using the same phase for all three phases. There are very few things DEC did which really required 3-phase power. Off my head, I know that the 86x0 machines really require 3-phase (the fans are AC motors), the RP06 drives use AC motors (probably RP04 and RP05 as well). I'm not sure, but it might be that KL-10 machines actually used 3-phase. It's been a while since I looked inside one. But as always, if you try do run a machine with 3-phase power off a single phase, you need to know how that machine is built, and if it actually is possible do "rewire" it. Don't play around with this if you don't really know, because it can be lethal both to the machine and you. Johnny From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Jan 19 15:28:35 2009 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 16:28:35 -0500 (EST) Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200901192143.QAA29873@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> they used to come with wall warts and now come with tiny little >> bricks with a mains-cord socket rather than mains prongs instead. >> They appear to be switchers, which has good sides and bad sides.... > You may find those SMPSU blocks will work from either 115V or 230V > mains with [no] user adjustments. They're marked that way, certainly: "110-240VAC 50/60Hz". That's one reason I suspect them of being switchers. > I assume the input connector on the SMPSU is either an IEC plug or > one of those figure-of-8 connectors, or at least something stnadard. Figure-of-8? I suspect you're probably talking about the same thing, even though it doesn't quite look like most fonts' 8 to me. Here's a reasonably close depiction of the socket on the mini-brick, if you've got a PostScript implementation available: 306 396 translate 10 100 moveto 0 100 10 0 360 arc closepath fill 10 -100 moveto 0 -100 10 0 360 arc closepath fill 100 100 moveto 0 100 100 0 180 arc -100 35 lineto -50 0 lineto -100 -35 lineto 0 -100 100 180 360 arc 100 -35 lineto 50 0 lineto 100 35 lineto closepath 1 setlinewidth 1 setlinejoin stroke showpage /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Jan 19 15:58:40 2009 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 13:58:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Oxidation Message-ID: <681377.89574.qm@web65513.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> gingerly. Fine steel wool (uh, #000 or #0000) is available at craft stores. Scotch Bright pads also. Use a lubricant, light oil (even cooking/vegatable oils), or paint thinner/mineral spirits, even water (like when you wet sand a paint job). Be careful of the refuse that will result. I'm not familiar w/this equipment, might need to do some dismantling. Rinse the surfaces thoroughly. I'm no expert.. --- On Mon, 1/19/09, Roy J. Tellason wrote: From: Roy J. Tellason Subject: Re: Oxidation To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Monday, January 19, 2009, 8:28 AM -----Inline Attachment Follows----- On Sunday 18 January 2009 11:23:42 pm Mike Loewen wrote: >? ???I'm in the process of rejuvenating an IBM model 29 keypunch, and a > couple of areas have some sort of oxidation on them.? The card drum is the > worst: > > http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/CardDrum.jpg > >? ???The steel parts are fine, but the rest has a white material over most > of it.? I'm not sure what sort of metal it is, looks a bit dark for > aluminum but the white material looks similar to aluminum oxidation. I'll bet that stuff's galvanized (zinc-plated). > What's a good approach to cleaning it up? Steel wool? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space,? a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed.? --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Jan 19 16:06:59 2009 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 14:06:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Oxidation Message-ID: <170.15034.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Well there's been some discussion about this. It is possible to *charge* a surface w/an abrasive, but usually this happens as a result of 2 metal surfaces coming into somewhat vigorous contact, w/an intervening abrasive. By comparison I would have to think the adverse effects are minor, but it might be a valid concern. I would think to make tiny flecks of metal or other substance imbed in a surface, you'd have to push pretty hard. But some loose particles could catch on porous surfaces possibly, though I'm not sure they'd tend to stick there permanently. But who knows. ?I have asked how you could test a surface to see if it was charged w/particles, but thus far no answers. Perhaps some type of fine paper or plastic if rubbed on the surface would alert to the presence of icky stuff. But then again how would you distinguish that from the jagged surfaces of metal itself? --- On Mon, 1/19/09, William Donzelli wrote: From: William Donzelli Subject: Re: Oxidation To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Monday, January 19, 2009, 10:22 AM -----Inline Attachment Follows----- > Steel wool? No, using steel wool on many other metals will later result in more corrosion. Steel wool leaves behind tiny bits of metal embedded in the metal, and these can cause problems if there is enough moisture. -- Will From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Jan 19 16:09:29 2009 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 14:09:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Oxidation Message-ID: <483092.48472.qm@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> I don't know. You can use electrolysis to derust metal (loads of links available). Is there a similar process for other types of oxidation? --- On Mon, 1/19/09, Teo Zenios wrote: Can't you buy an Aluminum Oxide stripper? From josecvalle at gmail.com Mon Jan 19 16:54:57 2009 From: josecvalle at gmail.com (Jose carlos Valle) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 20:54:57 -0200 Subject: Oxidation In-Reply-To: <4974836F.9080009@dunnington.plus.com> References: <200901182238.n0IMc0n30778@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> <4974836F.9080009@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: Pete My God... its is so bad... try kerosene with oil or vinegar. I have here in my Museum, in some condition, 026, 029 and 032 IBM .. And no volunteers to clean up that stuffs. May be some in Computer history museum in Mountain View help you. There is a technician there with 89 years old and he is good in IBM stuffs, I saw there a 1401 work until today. See Yah Jose Carlos Brazil take a look the photo I did last august there. 2009/1/19 Pete Turnbull > On 19/01/2009 04:23, Mike Loewen wrote: > >> >> I'm in the process of rejuvenating an IBM model 29 keypunch, and a >> couple of areas have some sort of oxidation on them. The card drum is the >> worst: >> >> http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/CardDrum.jpg >> >> The steel parts are fine, but the rest has a white material over most of >> it. I'm not sure what sort of metal it is, looks a bit dark for aluminum >> but the white material looks similar to aluminum oxidation. What's a good >> approach to cleaning it up? >> > > It looks to me like Mazak, which is a zinc-aluminium (and sometimes some > magnesium and copper) alloy used for die-casting. You could try steel wool > or a wire brush but I would bet it's badly pitted and probably needs > machined. > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > -- Jos? Carlos Valle - Presidente Museu do Computador Fones: (+5511) 4666-7545 e (+5511) 8794-6730 Informa??es sobre doa??es no Blog: http://blogdocurador.museudocomputador.com.br ATEN??O: Envie uma c?pia do formul?rio para este email. e mantenha uma c?pia junto com os equipamentos a serem doados. obrigado Visite nosso site: http://www.museudocomputador.com.br Office do Museu: Av Jandira, 257 - 6 andar -cj 64 - Moema - SP MAPA DO NOVO GALP?O: http://maps.google.com.br/maps/ms?msa=0&msid=108193747742585494988.00043b7a1d5a7f637349f&hl=pt-BR&ie=UTF8&ll=-23.687663,-46.854694&spn=0.007349,0.013733&z=16 From dave at drcircuits.com Mon Jan 19 23:55:50 2009 From: dave at drcircuits.com (dave at drcircuits.com) Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 21:55:50 -0800 Subject: FSOT: two Lear Siegler ADM-3A terminals Message-ID: <27E688F885724C1E95023FBF4191CA40@DAVE> Please advise availability of ADM-3 or 3A Terminals. Tnx David From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Jan 20 04:08:55 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 10:08:55 +0000 Subject: FSOT: two Lear Siegler ADM-3A terminals In-Reply-To: <27E688F885724C1E95023FBF4191CA40@DAVE> References: <27E688F885724C1E95023FBF4191CA40@DAVE> Message-ID: <1232446135.29240.27.camel@elric> On Mon, 2009-01-19 at 21:55 -0800, dave at drcircuits.com wrote: > Please advise availability of ADM-3 or 3A Terminals. They crop up from time to time. Keep checking eBay. Gordon From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 20 05:04:48 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 04:04:48 -0700 Subject: FSOT: two Lear Siegler ADM-3A terminals In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 19 Jan 2009 21:55:50 -0800. <27E688F885724C1E95023FBF4191CA40@DAVE> Message-ID: In article <27E688F885724C1E95023FBF4191CA40 at DAVE>, writes: > Please advise availability of ADM-3 or 3A Terminals. As was mentioned, ebay seems to be the place where these are semi-regularly available. However, I don't know if its a short-term fluctuation or the beginning of the end, but I have noticed that terminals are popping up on ebay with less regularity now than previously. For an ADM-3A (to be honest, I've not seen an ADM-3, only -3As), expect to pay at least $150 if its in decent condition. If its in near mint condition with its original box expect to pay $300+. Terminals seem to be getting rarer lately. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jan 20 06:38:48 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 07:38:48 -0500 Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <4974E943.16337.35841B8A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200901192329.n0JNTIRD096524@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4974E943.16337.35841B8A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > How many of those made-somewhere-in-China gizmos have forged UL seals > on them? Or does UL have an enforcement arm that precludes such > stuff from happening? Yes, they have audits and checks. Using the UL seal without having a valid UL listing is probably fraud or something. -- Will From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Jan 20 06:44:08 2009 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 13:44:08 +0100 Subject: Odd PDP-8/I Message-ID: <20090120124408.GA9318@Update.UU.SE> Hi In one of the computer clubs books there is a drawn picture of an odd PDP-8/I. A bit of googling gave this: http://blog.iso50.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/windowslivewriterpdp8is-2c248-i-01-thumb.jpg (Same picture, but bigger: ) http://blog.iso50.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/windowslivewriterpdp8is-2c248-i-01-2.jpg Has anyone seen it in the wild, its a pretty wierd form factor, reminds me about the H316 Kitchen computer. Cheers, Pontus From josefcub at gmail.com Tue Jan 20 07:19:03 2009 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 07:19:03 -0600 Subject: the purge continues: free trs-80 stuff from austin, tx In-Reply-To: <49757B56.30104@pacbell.net> References: <49755A25.4060005@pacbell.net> <49757B56.30104@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <9e2403920901200519i9344525le8fd04b414069a4a@mail.gmail.com> Jim, If you're willing to wait until tomorrow, I'd like to take a stab at coming over and picking the 4P up. I live out in Bastrop way. Is this all right with you? Josef On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 1:20 AM, Jim Battle wrote: > Jim Battle wrote: >> >> There are two categories here. > > The docs are claimed. The 4P is still available for anyone willing to pick > it up. > >> The next category is free, but *must* be picked up at my house. If I >> cared to spend the time to find a box and pack it properly, I'd put it on >> ebay and get my $50 or whatever. >> >> This is a TRS-80 4P in *great* shape. It has very little yellowing as it >> has been in a leatherette carrying case for the past 20 years. I recently >> took it apart and tweaked the trimmer cap so 80 column display mode is solid >> again. Both drives work great, and I don't know of any defects. >> >> It comes with an original in the binder TRSDOS 6.0.2 manual, a Montezuma >> Micro CP/M manual, and about 100 floppies. Not all the floppies are usable >> on this system; some came from model I systems, or were configured for >> double sided drives (this machine has only single sided floppies, which was >> the norm for the 4P). > -- "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein From josefcub at gmail.com Tue Jan 20 07:20:51 2009 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 07:20:51 -0600 Subject: the purge continues: free trs-80 stuff from austin, tx In-Reply-To: <9e2403920901200519i9344525le8fd04b414069a4a@mail.gmail.com> References: <49755A25.4060005@pacbell.net> <49757B56.30104@pacbell.net> <9e2403920901200519i9344525le8fd04b414069a4a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9e2403920901200520l6c566bc3va8864f1910d37d5f@mail.gmail.com> I should probably include 'please' and 'thank you' in my messages. May I please have the 4P? Is tomorrow acceptable to you, for coming to pick it up? Thank you, Josef with much chagrin. On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 7:19 AM, Josef Chessor wrote: > Jim, > > If you're willing to wait until tomorrow, I'd like to take a stab at > coming over and picking the 4P up. I live out in Bastrop way. Is > this all right with you? > > Josef > > On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 1:20 AM, Jim Battle wrote: >> Jim Battle wrote: >>> >>> There are two categories here. >> >> The docs are claimed. The 4P is still available for anyone willing to pick >> it up. >> >>> The next category is free, but *must* be picked up at my house. If I >>> cared to spend the time to find a box and pack it properly, I'd put it on >>> ebay and get my $50 or whatever. >>> >>> This is a TRS-80 4P in *great* shape. It has very little yellowing as it >>> has been in a leatherette carrying case for the past 20 years. I recently >>> took it apart and tweaked the trimmer cap so 80 column display mode is solid >>> again. Both drives work great, and I don't know of any defects. >>> >>> It comes with an original in the binder TRSDOS 6.0.2 manual, a Montezuma >>> Micro CP/M manual, and about 100 floppies. Not all the floppies are usable >>> on this system; some came from model I systems, or were configured for >>> double sided drives (this machine has only single sided floppies, which was >>> the norm for the 4P). >> > > > > -- > "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world > and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." > -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, > "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein > -- "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein From josefcub at gmail.com Tue Jan 20 07:22:10 2009 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 07:22:10 -0600 Subject: the purge continues: free trs-80 stuff from austin, tx In-Reply-To: <9e2403920901200520l6c566bc3va8864f1910d37d5f@mail.gmail.com> References: <49755A25.4060005@pacbell.net> <49757B56.30104@pacbell.net> <9e2403920901200519i9344525le8fd04b414069a4a@mail.gmail.com> <9e2403920901200520l6c566bc3va8864f1910d37d5f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9e2403920901200522gea57c06xb098b4fe6da5060e@mail.gmail.com> Crap! Sorry, all. I really hate being up this early in the morning. ;) On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 7:20 AM, Josef Chessor wrote: > I should probably include 'please' and 'thank you' in my messages. > > May I please have the 4P? Is tomorrow acceptable to you, for coming > to pick it up? > > > Thank you, > Josef with much chagrin. > > > On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 7:19 AM, Josef Chessor wrote: >> Jim, >> >> If you're willing to wait until tomorrow, I'd like to take a stab at >> coming over and picking the 4P up. I live out in Bastrop way. Is >> this all right with you? >> >> Josef >> >> On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 1:20 AM, Jim Battle wrote: >>> Jim Battle wrote: >>>> >>>> There are two categories here. >>> >>> The docs are claimed. The 4P is still available for anyone willing to pick >>> it up. >>> >>>> The next category is free, but *must* be picked up at my house. If I >>>> cared to spend the time to find a box and pack it properly, I'd put it on >>>> ebay and get my $50 or whatever. >>>> >>>> This is a TRS-80 4P in *great* shape. It has very little yellowing as it >>>> has been in a leatherette carrying case for the past 20 years. I recently >>>> took it apart and tweaked the trimmer cap so 80 column display mode is solid >>>> again. Both drives work great, and I don't know of any defects. >>>> >>>> It comes with an original in the binder TRSDOS 6.0.2 manual, a Montezuma >>>> Micro CP/M manual, and about 100 floppies. Not all the floppies are usable >>>> on this system; some came from model I systems, or were configured for >>>> double sided drives (this machine has only single sided floppies, which was >>>> the norm for the 4P). >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world >> and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." >> -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, >> "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein >> > > > > -- > "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world > and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." > -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, > "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein > -- "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Jan 20 07:23:30 2009 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 14:23:30 +0100 Subject: Odd PDP-8/I In-Reply-To: <20090120124408.GA9318@Update.UU.SE> References: <20090120124408.GA9318@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20090120132330.GA10233@Update.UU.SE> I sort of found an answer here. The pedestal version is mentioned in the pdp-8 faq: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/dec-faq/pdp8-models/section-5.html Also there are pictures in the maintenance manual: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp8/pdp8i/DEC-8I-HR1A-D_8Imaint_Mar70.pdf Was this part of DEC marketing the PDP-8 as cute? it sure is :) The question remains though, has anyone seen it in the wild? What was it used for? /P On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 01:44:08PM +0100, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Hi > > In one of the computer clubs books there is a drawn picture of an odd > PDP-8/I. A bit of googling gave this: > > http://blog.iso50.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/windowslivewriterpdp8is-2c248-i-01-thumb.jpg > > (Same picture, but bigger: ) > http://blog.iso50.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/windowslivewriterpdp8is-2c248-i-01-2.jpg > > Has anyone seen it in the wild, its a pretty wierd form factor, reminds > me about the H316 Kitchen computer. > > Cheers, > Pontus From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Jan 20 08:26:23 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 09:26:23 -0500 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <20090119.140533.16881.0@webmail15.vgs.untd.com> References: <20090119.140533.16881.0@webmail15.vgs.untd.com> Message-ID: <200901200926.23580.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 19 January 2009 05:05:33 pm jeff.kaneko at juno.com wrote: > -- "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: > >> Alas my expeerience suggests the reverse. Back when computers were > >> expensive, and chips were expensive, the manufacutrers took the > >> >>trouble to put all sorts of protectinon in their machines to protect > >> said expensive decices in the event of a failure. Now they don't bother. > > > >I would suspect that a younger crop of engineers coming up might have > > >some bearing on this too. :-) > > Actually, I would be more likely to suspect the current crop of > engineering *managers* as a more likely cause (both pointy-haired > and not). "My gawd, boy, those extra bits add $0.10 to our build > cost! Do we really need that for the product to meet spec?" You're probably right. The Earl Muntz approach carried to exremes... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Jan 20 08:30:04 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 09:30:04 -0500 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <4974FA8F.4040401@pacbell.net> References: <200901191550.06875.rtellason@verizon.net> <4974FA8F.4040401@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <200901200930.04638.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 19 January 2009 05:11:27 pm Jim Battle wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > On Monday 19 January 2009 03:02:03 pm Tony Duell wrote: > >>>> That depends, a lot, on the PSU design. Certainly SMPSUs can do some > >>>> very odd things if a capacitor goes open-circuit or just high ESR. How > >>>> much damage that does to the rest of the PSU or worse the rest of the > >>>> machine depends on the design. > >>> > >>> Do you think that the designers of this stuff have learned which > >>> approaches they might want to stay away from? :-) > >> > >> Alas my expeerience suggests the reverse. Back when computers were > >> expensive, and chips were expensive, the manufacutrers took the trouble > >> to put all sorts of protectinon in their machines to protect said > >> expensive decices in the event of a failure. Now they don't bother. > > > > I would suspect that a younger crop of engineers coming up might have > > some bearing on this too. :-) > > Roy, I disagree. Your opinion (smiley and all) sounds like the "Why, we > had to walk uphill to school through snowstorms, both ways! Today's > kids are wimps!" Well yeah! Old phart working my way toward full curmudgeon status... :-) > There have always been both brilliant and stupid engineers, and everything > in between. People today are not more stupid than those of 40 years ago. > The problems that need to be solved have changed, and so have peoples' > specializations. No argument there. > Tony has it right. The market demands low prices and doesn't demand > ruggedness, so that is what gets built. There are those who would argue that the market demands cheap crap, too, and that there isn't much of one for quality product that's built to last. I've been arguing that one for decades. I consider the cheap stuff to be a real waste of not only my time and money but also resources like the materials it's made of and the production capability and so forth. And I try to avoid it whenever possible. That's why I like a lot of this older gear so much, it's better made. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Jan 20 08:33:13 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 09:33:13 -0500 Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <49749F02.28063.34628543@cclist.sydex.com> References: <49730DD7.1540.2E4364EF@cclist.sydex.com> <49749F02.28063.34628543@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200901200933.13406.rtellason@verizon.net> > On the other hand, I bristle when I see "No customer-serviceable > components inside". How do they bloody know what I can service? Yeah, anyway! :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From sellam at vintagetech.com Tue Jan 20 07:46:37 2009 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 05:46:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: LMI Lambda in San Diego needs temporary home Message-ID: I have an LMI Lambda in San Diego that is waiting for me to come get it. The problem is that it's in a storage locker and the person holding it needs to close out the locker due to costs. I will be going down to SD in a few weeks for business but the LMI needs to be moved now. Is there someone who can go get it and temporarily store it until I can get down there? If not, it'll be lost. If someone can assist, please contact me directly. If it won't be feasible for me to retrieve it myself, I will want it to go to someone who can take it in. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Jan 20 09:55:08 2009 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 09:55:08 -0600 Subject: Free: AT&T 5620 Terminals Message-ID: <51ea77730901200755u733c3ac5ucce70773b070bbbb@mail.gmail.com> I've got four of these classic terminals, but no keyboards and no mice. They are free for pickup in NW Chicago suburbs (60074.) They are in fair to rough shape. I have not powered any of them on. I need to reclaim the space they're taking up and would really rather not see these classics scrapped. Here's one in use with an AT&T 3B2 system: http://stat-graphics.org/movies/gifs/dyndisp85a.gif From michaelgreen42 at comcast.net Tue Jan 20 10:48:57 2009 From: michaelgreen42 at comcast.net (Michael) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 08:48:57 -0800 Subject: Parting out Mac II's in Seattle area In-Reply-To: <200901192329.n0JNTIRE096524@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901192329.n0JNTIRE096524@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <049501c97b1e$fd79c0e0$f86d42a0$@net> Well I couldn't get rid of too many of these whole and I need to move soon so I'm parting them out. Should be some memory, power supplies, brackets, drives, something worth it to somebody. Send me an email telling me what you are looking for and what you'll pay. Not looking to make a killing here just make it worth my time. PS: I don't think there are any very interesting pds cards just standard video ones. From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Tue Jan 20 12:08:55 2009 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 19:08:55 +0100 Subject: FSOT: two Lear Siegler ADM-3A terminals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49761337.5070506@bluewin.ch> Richard wrote: > In article <27E688F885724C1E95023FBF4191CA40 at DAVE>, > writes: > >> Please advise availability of ADM-3 or 3A Terminals. > > As was mentioned, ebay seems to be the place where these are > semi-regularly available. However, I don't know if its a short-term > fluctuation or the beginning of the end, but I have noticed that > terminals are popping up on ebay with less regularity now than > previously. For an ADM-3A (to be honest, I've not seen an ADM-3, only > -3As), expect to pay at least $150 if its in decent condition. Or, like in my case, USD 10 for a quite nice one, with external numeric keyboard and graphics option. Jos From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jan 20 12:38:36 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 11:38:36 -0700 Subject: FSOT: two Lear Siegler ADM-3A terminals In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 20 Jan 2009 19:08:55 +0100. <49761337.5070506@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: In article <49761337.5070506 at bluewin.ch>, Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel writes: > Richard wrote: > > In article <27E688F885724C1E95023FBF4191CA40 at DAVE>, > > writes: > > > >> Please advise availability of ADM-3 or 3A Terminals. > > > > As was mentioned, ebay seems to be the place where these are > > semi-regularly available. However, I don't know if its a short-term > > fluctuation or the beginning of the end, but I have noticed that > > terminals are popping up on ebay with less regularity now than > > previously. For an ADM-3A (to be honest, I've not seen an ADM-3, only > > -3As), expect to pay at least $150 if its in decent condition. > > Or, like in my case, USD 10 for a quite nice one, with external numeric keybo ard and graphics option. While bargains can be had, I don't want to set the expectation that highly tricked out ADM-3As are laying around for $10. That's just crazy luck, not typical at all. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 20 12:44:50 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 10:44:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: Running 3 phase 780s on single phase power In-Reply-To: <4974EE84.9070500@softjar.se> References: <200901191800.n0JI0DAh091509@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4974EE84.9070500@softjar.se> Message-ID: <20090120104357.G53891@shell.lmi.net> . . . and make sure that the power company "technician" knows the difference between "delta" and "Y" three phase! From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 20 13:13:34 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 11:13:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <200901200930.04638.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200901191550.06875.rtellason@verizon.net> <4974FA8F.4040401@pacbell.net> <200901200930.04638.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20090120110905.I53891@shell.lmi.net> > Roy, I disagree. Your opinion (smiley and all) sounds like the "Why, we > had to walk uphill to school through snowstorms, both ways! Today's > kids are wimps!" . . . and get 'em off of my lawn > There have always been both brilliant and stupid engineers, and everything > in between. People today are not more stupid than those of 40 years ago. Yes, we are. OK, more ignorant than stupid. What percentage can calculate a square root without a calculator? > That's why I like a lot of this older gear so much, it's better made. "They don't make them like they used to." -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From toby at coreware.co.uk Tue Jan 20 13:14:33 2009 From: toby at coreware.co.uk (Tobias Russell) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 19:14:33 +0000 Subject: Getting a PDP-11/05, RX11, RX01 working Message-ID: <1232478873.25717.21.camel@spasmo> I've made some good progress with getting my 11/05 back to full working condition. The stuck bit I had earlier this month I resolved by replacing the sense/inhibit board. Thanks to everyone who advised me on this. I've also got RS232 working on the 11/05s on board console port. After a hunt through many boxes of accumulated junk I came across a little box with an RS232 port on one side and a berg connector on the other. Within the box was a crystal and some level converters. This was exactly what I needed, providing a stable external clock (9600 baud) and using the TTL levels available on the berg connector to provide RS232. Next I acquired an M9301-YF which I fitted to the terminator slot closest to the CPU and booted into its on-board console. All worked well here and I could examine and deposit values into memory via it. Then in went an RX11 (into the SBC slot) which I hooked up to a RX02 with its switches set to make it behave as an RX01. When I tried to boot by typing DX into the console after about half a second of running the machine halts and displays a PC of 4 (IO Trap I believe). If I repeat with the power to the RX01 drive switched off it continues to run until the RX01 is powered on at which point it halts. The RX02 I know to work (as an RX02 at least) as I've connected it to a QBUS machine with RXV211 to confirm Anyone have any thoughts as to what is going wrong? One possibility that occurred to me is that the SBC slot is missing the NPR signal. I have read that this is necessary for an RX11 to work. How do I check if that is present and how do I put it in if its missing? Thanks, Toby -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 20 13:28:27 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 11:28:27 -0800 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <20090120110905.I53891@shell.lmi.net> References: , <200901200930.04638.rtellason@verizon.net>, <20090120110905.I53891@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4975B55B.24134.38A1B208@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Jan 2009 at 11:13, Fred Cisin wrote: > OK, more ignorant than stupid. > What percentage can calculate a square root without a calculator? I'm repeatedly surprised at the number of average folks who can't do math in their heads--or long division on paper. Whippersnappers! Cheers, Chuck From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Tue Jan 20 13:35:32 2009 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 19:35:32 +0000 Subject: Running 3 phase 780s on single phase power (was RE: hams on classiccmp) In-Reply-To: <200901192329.n0JNTIRQ096524@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901192329.n0JNTIRQ096524@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <0C45EE16-B17A-4FC8-8BA9-0FDF0C50E01F@microspot.co.uk> On 19 Jan, 2009, at 23:29, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > Message: 7 > Date: Mon, 19 Jan 2009 11:39:13 -0800 > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Subject: Re: Running 3 phase 780s on single phase power (was RE: hams > on classiccmp) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <49746661.10189.338533BA at cclist.sydex.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > On 19 Jan 2009 at 19:17, Roger Holmes wrote: > >> (Who has a 440v three phase computer drawing 13kVA which has three >> phase bridge rectifiers to generate fairly ripple free DC) > > What, no 40 hp MG set generating 400 Hz 3-phase? :) > > Cheers, > Chuck No but it was run off a world war two air ministry (diesel) engine driven generator for a few years. The generator was a 1700 cc twin cylinder unit with hand start and a flywheel weighing several hundred pounds. I had to keep fit to get that to start on a cold winters morning when the oil was thick and the cylinders were cold. Roger. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jan 20 13:37:30 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 11:37:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <4975B55B.24134.38A1B208@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <200901200930.04638.rtellason@verizon.net>, <20090120110905.I53891@shell.lmi.net> <4975B55B.24134.38A1B208@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20090120113627.V53891@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 20 Jan 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I'm repeatedly surprised at the number of average folks who can't do > math in their heads--or long division on paper. > Whippersnappers! 8.5% sales tax on $10.00 ! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jan 20 14:12:29 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 13:12:29 -0700 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <20090120113627.V53891@shell.lmi.net> References: , <200901200930.04638.rtellason@verizon.net>, <20090120110905.I53891@shell.lmi.net> <4975B55B.24134.38A1B208@cclist.sydex.com> <20090120113627.V53891@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4976302D.1010907@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 20 Jan 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I'm repeatedly surprised at the number of average folks who can't do >> math in their heads--or long division on paper. >> Whippersnappers! > > 8.5% sales tax on $10.00 ! > Umm $9.95 or $9.99. :) From fsmith at ladylinux.com Tue Jan 20 14:15:57 2009 From: fsmith at ladylinux.com (Francesca C. Smith) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 15:15:57 -0500 Subject: SB11 Message-ID: <200901201515.57639.fsmith@ladylinux.com> Hi Peoples, Picked up a boat load of LS11 stuff today via E-Pay and I got an enclosure called a SB11. Markings on the back indicate its a BA11-VA with Model OSB11-EA I have searched high and low and only find vauge references to it in some scientists/professors engineering documents. Anyone know what this puppy is ?? I am guessing some sort of qbus dual height expansion thingamajig. Pictures here http://www.linuxgal.com/decstuff/sb11-1.jpg http://www.linuxgal.com/decstuff/sb11-2.jpg Also in that dir is a weirdo custom ?? VT100 with a tiny 4 inch screen. I am guessing this all prob sat in some rack at one time. http://linuxgal.com/decstuff/display1.jpg http://linuxgal.com/decstuff/display2.jpg http://linuxgal.com/decstuff/display3.jpg -- Kindest Regards, Francesca (Aka LadyLinux) Baltimore, Maryland From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Tue Jan 20 14:17:00 2009 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 21:17:00 +0100 Subject: Getting a PDP-11/05, RX11, RX01 working In-Reply-To: <1232478873.25717.21.camel@spasmo> References: <1232478873.25717.21.camel@spasmo> Message-ID: > From: toby at coreware.co.uk > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 19:14:33 +0000 > Subject: Getting a PDP-11/05, RX11, RX01 working > > I've made some good progress with getting my 11/05 back to full > working condition. > > Next I acquired an M9301-YF which I fitted to the terminator slot > closest to the CPU and booted into its on-board console. All worked > well here and I could examine and deposit values into memory via it. I guess that means that up to this point the machine operates fine, and that includes the UNIBUS. > Then in went an RX11 (into the SBC slot) which I hooked up to a RX02 > with its switches set to make it behave as an RX01. When I tried to boot > by typing DX into the console after about half a second of running the > machine halts and displays a PC of 4 (IO Trap I believe). If I repeat > with the power to the RX01 drive switched off it continues to run until > the RX01 is powered on at which point it halts. The RX02 I know to work > (as an RX02 at least) as I've connected it to a QBUS machine with RXV211 > to confirm > > Anyone have any thoughts as to what is going wrong? (SPC slot) If the heads load and then the CPU halts on 000004, it might mean that it can not read the first sector, or reads garbage. If the drive works fine as RX02 ... is the floppy that you use as an RX01 formatted? If the disk is RX02 formatted, you will certainly get read errors in RX01-mode. The headers on RX01 and RX02 are identical, but the data in each sector is NOT! > One possibility that occurred to me is that the SBC slot is missing the > NPR signal. I have read that this is necessary for an RX11 to work. How > do I check if that is present and how do I put it in if its missing? You can look at the backplane and check if the CA1 pin is connected to CB1 in the "RX11 SPC slot". If it is not, I would suggest to NOT to work on the backplane, but check the RX11 board if those two contact fingers are connected by a trace on the board itself. If it is not, solder a jumper wire on the board, not on the backplane. Some older SPC boards which are not "DMA" have a jumper wire, some not "DMA" boards do not have the jumper, so it must be on the backplane. For example [copied from my web page on the M7856]: "... the DL11-W (M7856) module does not use, nor connect the NPG connection. If you install the M7856 module in an SPC slot, make sure that the NPG chain is wired on the backplane. If you do not want to "mess around" on the backplane, you can solder a wire on the component side of the module to connect CA1 to CB1. If you are not sure which contact fingers to connect, use the G7273 NPG / Grant Continuity module as an example." I also remember vaguely a problem with an RX drive on top of an other box. It was solved when the RX was moved away! Sorry, can't remember the details (getting old???)! - Henk, PA8PDP. From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Tue Jan 20 14:27:51 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 15:27:51 -0500 Subject: SB11 References: <200901201515.57639.fsmith@ladylinux.com> Message-ID: <18806.13255.12193.892875@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Francesca" == Francesca C Smith writes: Francesca> Hi Peoples, Picked up a boat load of LS11 stuff today via Francesca> E-Pay and I got an enclosure called a SB11. Nicknamed the "shoebox-11", it's a small Q-bus enclosure, so if you want to build a tiny LSI-11 based computer this is the packaging to use. It's mentioned in http://neil.franklin.ch/Usenet/alt.folklore.computers/19990305_looking_for_PDT_11_s, search for "SB-11" (about half-way down the very long page). paul From fsmith at ladylinux.com Tue Jan 20 14:28:51 2009 From: fsmith at ladylinux.com (Francesca C. Smith) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 15:28:51 -0500 Subject: SB11 In-Reply-To: <200901201515.57639.fsmith@ladylinux.com> References: <200901201515.57639.fsmith@ladylinux.com> Message-ID: <200901201528.51265.fsmith@ladylinux.com> On Tuesday 20 January 2009 15:15:57 Francesca C. Smith wrote: Ok, I should have done the "Smart" thing and looked up BA11-VA on the google :-) I see its a cute lil expansion box as I kinda though. > Markings on the back indicate its a BA11-VA with Model OSB11-EA -- Kindest Regards, No Problems Only Solutions Hosting Admins Baltimore, Maryland From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Jan 20 14:35:31 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 12:35:31 -0800 Subject: Running 3 phase 780s on single phase power In-Reply-To: <4974EE84.9070500@softjar.se> References: <200901191800.n0JI0DAh091509@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4974EE84.9070500@softjar.se> Message-ID: > From: Johnny Billquist > Sent: Monday, January 19, 2009 1:20 PM > What you need to understand here, is that there is nothing in a 11/780 > that is actually driven by 3-phase power. And the power controller is > nothing like what you are trying to describe. [ snip ] > And with this kind of construction, it really isn't any problem at all > in using the same phase for all three phases. There are very few things > DEC did which really required 3-phase power. > Off my head, I know that the 86x0 machines really require 3-phase (the > fans are AC motors), the RP06 drives use AC motors (probably RP04 and > RP05 as well). I'm not sure, but it might be that KL-10 machines > actually used 3-phase. It's been a while since I looked inside one. The KL-10, like other DEC gear, uses 3-phase input power as the simplest way to get lots of amps into the system: 60A @ 208 3-phase. All of this feeds into a single gigantic boat-anchor grade transformer which forms the basis of a linear power supply. 2/3 of that power goes back out as simple heat. > But as always, if you try do run a machine with 3-phase power off a > single phase, you need to know how that machine is built, and if it > actually is possible do "rewire" it. Don't play around with this if you > don't really know, because it can be lethal both to the machine and you. Some here seem to think that we are amateurs--if not idiots--working on a home system, and unaware of the precautions necessary before making changes to the power system of any large computer. The electrical engineer on our team very carefully located three phase-isolated outlets for us, working from the power panel outwards, before we did anything else. We tested the plug box for phase isolation before connecting either VAX, and we had every internal breaker off and every internal plug disconnected for several hours while we checked the power coming through the main breaker. We're paid for our ability to do this work. The fact that we love doing it does not make us any less professional in how we do it. Knowing that poor design choices on our parts could injure us or our guests, or destroy equipment that may be impossible to replace (VAXen are not uncommon, but PDP-7 systems are!), makes us very cautious in how we approach things. We share our occasional triumphs with the likeminded not in a game of oneupsmanship but so that knowledge is not lost if we get hit by a train on our way to lunch. Rich Alderson Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Tue Jan 20 14:53:03 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 15:53:03 -0500 Subject: Running 3 phase 780s on single phase power References: <200901191800.n0JI0DAh091509@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4974EE84.9070500@softjar.se> Message-ID: <18806.14767.694116.516562@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Rich" == Rich Alderson writes: Rich> Some here seem to think that we are amateurs--if not Rich> idiots--working on a home system, and unaware of the Rich> precautions necessary before making changes to the power system Rich> of any large computer. Perhaps "some" are merely unaware of the background of the person(s) asking the questions. Yes, it's somewhat annoying to an expert to get an answer that assumes he's a novice. But it's potentially much nastier for a novice to get back an answer that assumes the knowledge of an expert. Personally, I tend to write as if the audience is not all that experienced (unless I specifically know otherwise, and even then there will be others reading the archives later) -- in the hopes that experts will simply skip over the "obvious" stuff without taking offense. Yes, an expert knows how to rewire electronics that uses 3-phase power so it uses several 1-phase feeds instead. A novice might overlook important details, such as the fact that the neutral in a 3-phase Y system is smaller than the phase wires, which means you have to substitute larger wires there for this rewire job. And finally, if you have a system that actually has a 3-phase input to the DC supply (for example, 6 diodes from 3 center-tapped windings feeding the ripple filter), then rewiring that input as 3 separate single phase circuits is not going to work quite right, because you will then have inadequate filtering (having replaced 360 Hz ripple by 120 Hz ripple). It doesn't sound like this shows up in VAXen; I don't know if it does in the KL-10; but I do know it is a consideration if you're working on a CDC 6000 series machine because it has such supplies. paul From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue Jan 20 14:54:53 2009 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 15:54:53 -0500 Subject: SB11 Message-ID: <4975F3CD0200003700048268@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Francesca writes: > Anyone know what this puppy is ?? We always called the SB-11 the "Shoebox 11" in our lab, it may have even been the official name. Very small PDP-11 Q-bus system. I think they were in some 70's or very early 80's DECDirect catalogs. > Also in that dir is a weirdo custom ?? VT100 with a tiny 4 inch screen. I am > guessing this all prob sat in some rack at one time. Ah, those are very interesting pictures. I'm pretty sure the CRT and cage and PCB are Ball Brothers units, can you look for stickers with their name? Ball Brothers made CRT+deflection circuitry+ flyback modules used in other equipment, and at one point I even had an IMSAI cabinet with backplane and a Ball Brothers CRT incorporated into the front panel. Tim. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jan 20 15:04:30 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 14:04:30 -0700 Subject: Running 3 phase 780s on single phase power In-Reply-To: References: <200901191800.n0JI0DAh091509@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4974EE84.9070500@softjar.se> Message-ID: <49763C5E.5000804@jetnet.ab.ca> Rich Alderson wrote: > Knowing that > poor design choices on our parts could injure us or our guests, or > destroy equipment that may be impossible to replace (VAXen are not > uncommon, but PDP-7 systems are!), makes us very cautious in how we > approach things. We share our occasional triumphs with the likeminded > not in a game of oneupsmanship but so that knowledge is not lost if we > get hit by a train on our way to lunch. > Just where do you eat Lunch? Ben. From pontus at update.uu.se Tue Jan 20 15:26:39 2009 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 22:26:39 +0100 Subject: Running 3 phase 780s on single phase power In-Reply-To: <18806.14767.694116.516562@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200901191800.n0JI0DAh091509@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4974EE84.9070500@softjar.se> <18806.14767.694116.516562@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <4976418F.1060506@update.uu.se> > Rich> Some here seem to think that we are amateurs--if not > Rich> idiots--working on a home system, and unaware of the > Rich> precautions necessary before making changes to the power system > Rich> of any large computer. > > Perhaps "some" are merely unaware of the background of the person(s) > asking the questions. Yes, it's somewhat annoying to an expert to get > an answer that assumes he's a novice. But it's potentially much > nastier for a novice to get back an answer that assumes the knowledge > of an expert. Personally, I tend to write as if the audience is not > all that experienced (unless I specifically know otherwise, and even > then there will be others reading the archives later) Indeed, I know enough to not put my fingers into high-voltage/high-current, but not much more. Therefore it is interesting to read about why I should not tinker with it. Also, I very much appreciate your (PDPplanet) and others(computer history museums) effort to share your experiences with the exotic systems of yesteryears. Keep up the good work. Regards, Pontus. From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Jan 20 15:34:12 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 16:34:12 -0500 Subject: Running 3 phase 780s on single phase power In-Reply-To: <18806.14767.694116.516562@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200901191800.n0JI0DAh091509@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4974EE84.9070500@softjar.se> <18806.14767.694116.516562@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <49764354.1020100@gmail.com> Paul Koning wrote: > And finally, if you have a system that actually has a 3-phase input to > the DC supply (for example, 6 diodes from 3 center-tapped windings > feeding the ripple filter), then rewiring that input as 3 separate > single phase circuits is not going to work quite right, because you > will then have inadequate filtering (having replaced 360 Hz ripple by > 120 Hz ripple). It doesn't sound like this shows up in VAXen; I don't > know if it does in the KL-10; but I do know it is a consideration if > you're working on a CDC 6000 series machine because it has such supplies. Isn't that how the VAX 6000 is set up? I run a VAX 6000 on split-phase and it works just fine. Peace... Sridhar From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Jan 20 15:40:51 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 16:40:51 -0500 Subject: Running 3 phase 780s on single phase power In-Reply-To: References: <200901191800.n0JI0DAh091509@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4974EE84.9070500@softjar.se> Message-ID: <200901201640.51507.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 20 January 2009, Rich Alderson wrote: > Some here seem to think that we are amateurs--if not idiots--working > on a home system, and unaware of the precautions necessary before > making changes to the power system of any large computer. The > electrical engineer on our team very carefully located three > phase-isolated outlets for us, working from the power panel outwards, > before we did anything else. We tested the plug box for phase > isolation before connecting either VAX, and we had every internal > breaker off and every internal plug disconnected for several hours > while we checked the power coming through the main breaker. I'll assume that I'm one of those people, and I'm sorry if I came off that way, I definitely do not feel that you and your group (PDPplanet) are idiots, I was trying to explain things for the benefit of other readers (also, Ian King made no mention of what group this was with, and seemed to me that he was missing the particular point I was making in my replies, which is my excuse for belaboring the points I was trying to make :). Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue Jan 20 15:56:10 2009 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 16:56:10 -0500 Subject: SB11 Message-ID: <4976022A0200003700048288@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Another thought about the SB-11... were those connectors on the back for sending power to a companion TU-58 drive? Is the SB-11 the same form factor as the external TU-58 enclosure? We never used them like that, we had a top-bottom stacked dual 8" drive from... MTI? hooked to our SB-11. Tim. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 20 15:58:27 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 13:58:27 -0800 Subject: Running 3 phase 780s on single phase power In-Reply-To: <18806.14767.694116.516562@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200901191800.n0JI0DAh091509@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <18806.14767.694116.516562@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <4975D883.8201.392B05EB@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Jan 2009 at 15:53, Paul Koning wrote: > And finally, if you have a system that actually has a 3-phase input to > the DC supply (for example, 6 diodes from 3 center-tapped windings > feeding the ripple filter), then rewiring that input as 3 separate > single phase circuits is not going to work quite right, because you > will then have inadequate filtering (having replaced 360 Hz ripple by > 120 Hz ripple). It doesn't sound like this shows up in VAXen; I don't > know if it does in the KL-10; but I do know it is a consideration if > you're working on a CDC 6000 series machine because it has such supplies. Yup, but there the ripple frequency is 2400 Hz (at least on the CPU supplies). I used to show movies at a drive-in theater where the arcs were fed from a 3-phase AC supply through a full-wave star rectifier configuration. Unlike the arcs that were fed from MG sets, these had a very noticeable 360 Hz whine when operating. Cheers, Chuck From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue Jan 20 16:00:16 2009 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 17:00:16 -0500 Subject: Running 3 phase 780s on single phase power Message-ID: <49760320020000370004828C@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Rich writes: > The electrical > engineer on our team very carefully located three phase-isolated outlets > for us, working from the power panel outwards, before we did anything > else. We tested the plug box for phase isolation before connecting > either VAX, and we had every internal breaker off and every internal > plug disconnected for several hours while we checked the power coming > through the main breaker. In my experience with getting 3-phase power run, even though there's a 50-50 chance that by pure luck he'll get the phasing correct to run the motors in the right direction, I inevitably find that with 100% certainty that the electrician has wired it up reverse of what is actually needed :-). Tim. From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Jan 20 16:11:35 2009 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 16:11:35 -0600 Subject: FS: Psion II LZ Organizer Message-ID: <51ea77730901201411pf3c64e2sffd7cb407d815953@mail.gmail.com> I believe this qualifies, more or less, as a computer, and is definitely over 10 years old: http://www.bioeddie.co.uk/models/psion-ll-organiser-lz.htm I have the main unit, which I've tested and appears to work fine, a number of ROM and RAM carts, and a bunch of books. Asking $50, including shipping in the Lower 48. International pays for shipping (sorry.) From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Tue Jan 20 16:11:49 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 17:11:49 -0500 Subject: Running 3 phase 780s on single phase power References: <200901191800.n0JI0DAh091509@dewey.classiccmp.org> <18806.14767.694116.516562@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4975D883.8201.392B05EB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <18806.19493.27101.372349@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Chuck" == Chuck Guzis writes: Chuck> On 20 Jan 2009 at 15:53, Paul Koning wrote: >> And finally, if you have a system that actually has a 3-phase >> input to the DC supply (for example, 6 diodes from 3 center-tapped >> windings feeding the ripple filter), then rewiring that input as 3 >> separate single phase circuits is not going to work quite right, >> because you will then have inadequate filtering (having replaced >> 360 Hz ripple by 120 Hz ripple). It doesn't sound like this shows >> up in VAXen; I don't know if it does in the KL-10; but I do know >> it is a consideration if you're working on a CDC 6000 series >> machine because it has such supplies. Chuck> Yup, but there the ripple frequency is 2400 Hz (at least on Chuck> the CPU supplies). True. I thought there was 3phase 60 Hz in the console, but that's not the case. The compressor motors (for the mainframe cooling system) do use 3 phase 60 Hz. paul From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 20 16:01:00 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 22:01:00 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: from "CRC" at Jan 19, 9 06:18:28 pm Message-ID: > > > Basically, in the US the UL is the standard which one follows (CE if > you want to go elsewhere). Failing to meet the UL/CE standards > generally has force of law in the US due to the ever diligent lawyers. I feel these standard, or at least the 'CE mark' is part of the problem, and here's why.... It would apperar there are either loopholes in the standard, or plenty of cheap electrical devices (including wall-warts) that have invalid CE marks on them, in that I've seem enough devices that I don't consider safe. The problem is that if the wall-wart carries the CE mark, then as you said, the certification for the whole product becomes a lot easier, and if there are any problems later, a large part of the defence is 'But the wall wart met the appropriate CE standards'. But when manufacturers were entirely responsible for what their devices did, they made darn sure they were safe. Said manufacturers did not want to end up paying out large amounts of damages. SO th products really _were_ safe. I offer as an example the PSU brick for the Philips G7000 video game. It's a bit like awall-wart, except it has a mains input cable that you wire to a suitale plug. But inside that brick (which is nicely screwed together), there are no fewer than 3 protective devices. A mains-side fuse, a secondary fuse, and a thermal fuse (on the mains side). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 20 15:39:33 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 21:39:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <200901192143.QAA29873@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "der Mouse" at Jan 19, 9 04:28:35 pm Message-ID: > > >> they used to come with wall warts and now come with tiny little > >> bricks with a mains-cord socket rather than mains prongs instead. > >> They appear to be switchers, which has good sides and bad sides.... > > You may find those SMPSU blocks will work from either 115V or 230V > > mains with [no] user adjustments. > > They're marked that way, certainly: "110-240VAC 50/60Hz". That's one > reason I suspect them of being switchers. Of course in general SMPSUs are lighter than linear supplies of the same output power. So if these brickes seem light, they're probably switchers. > > > I assume the input connector on the SMPSU is either an IEC plug or > > one of those figure-of-8 connectors, or at least something stnadard. > > Figure-of-8? I suspect you're probably talking about the same thing, > even though it doesn't quite look like most fonts' 8 to me. Here's a 'Figure of 8' is the common (although incorrect for many reasons) name for the normal 2 pin main connector you find (found?) on cassette recorders, radios, etc in the 1980s. I've seen it caleld a 'Telefunken connector', although I suspect that name is dubious too. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 20 15:48:47 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 21:48:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <49749F02.28063.34628543@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 19, 9 03:40:50 pm Message-ID: > On the other hand, I bristle when I see "No customer-serviceable > components inside". How do they bloody know what I can service? 'No user serviceable parts inside' is, I suppose technically correct. On the grounds that when I am servicing or repairing it, it's broken, and therefore I can't be the user of it. :-) If you really want to get me fuming, then simply say 'You're not trained to repair '. No, I am not. Iv'e never been on any training course in my life. On the other hand, I am darn sure I can repair any electrical or mechancial device given the necessary informaion. Period. I do not need 'special training' to fit a gear in a piece of office machinery, when, I've been working with gears since before I went to scheol, and darn it, I could cut said gear from scratch if I had to. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 20 15:52:40 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 21:52:40 +0000 (GMT) Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <4974FA8F.4040401@pacbell.net> from "Jim Battle" at Jan 19, 9 04:11:27 pm Message-ID: > There have always been both brilliant and stupid engineers, and > everything in between. People today are not more stupid than those of > 40 years ago. The problems that need to be solved have changed, and so > have peoples' specializations. I wonder if part of the change is that the people who buy and use very complex products now are not technically-minded at all. 30 or 40 years ago, I would guess a lot of small-ish computers were ought by engineers or scientists who had some idea as to what went on iside, and could appreciate a good design. And they were prepared to pay for said good design, so that's what got built. Now the average PC owner wouldn't recognise good engieering if it lept up and bit them, they are swayed, alas, by price alone. So guess what gets made... > > Tony has it right. The market demands low prices and doesn't demand > ruggedness, so that is what gets built. It's a great pity there aren't enough people out there who would pay for a good design for such a product to be comemrically viable. -tony From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Jan 20 16:24:20 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 16:24:20 -0600 Subject: Running 3 phase 780s on single phase power (was RE: hams on classiccmp) In-Reply-To: <0C45EE16-B17A-4FC8-8BA9-0FDF0C50E01F@microspot.co.uk> References: <200901192329.n0JNTIRQ096524@dewey.classiccmp.org> <0C45EE16-B17A-4FC8-8BA9-0FDF0C50E01F@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <49764F14.3050302@gmail.com> Roger Holmes wrote: > No but it was run off a world war two air ministry (diesel) engine > driven generator for a few years. The generator was a 1700 cc twin > cylinder unit with hand start and a flywheel weighing several hundred > pounds. I had to keep fit to get that to start on a cold winters morning > when the oil was thick and the cylinders were cold. No luxury of air-start, huh? :-) Been there before with a 3-cylinder Dorman and it's back-breaking stuff (thankfully the Dorman had an electric-start option, so the hand starting was just "for fun") I suspect there's something to be said for pre-heating the oil using whatever means on something like that. From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Tue Jan 20 16:25:38 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 17:25:38 -0500 Subject: hams on classiccmp References: <200901192143.QAA29873@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <18806.20322.125154.87324@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Tony" == Tony Duell writes: >> > I assume the input connector on the SMPSU is either an IEC plug >> or > one of those figure-of-8 connectors, or at least something >> stnadard. >> >> Figure-of-8? I suspect you're probably talking about the same >> thing, even though it doesn't quite look like most fonts' 8 to me. >> Here's a Tony> 'Figure of 8' is the common (although incorrect for many Tony> reasons) name for the normal 2 pin main connector you find Tony> (found?) on cassette recorders, radios, etc in the 1980s. I've Tony> seen it caleld a 'Telefunken connector', although I suspect Tony> that name is dubious too. Perhaps the same, perhaps not -- there are a number of IEC mains connectors. There is the 5 sided one found on many computers, which is rated at 10 or 13 amps depending on country. A less common variant (also 5-sided) has the blades parallel to the long edge rather than the short edge -- 16 or 20 amps. (There's also a version of the 13 amp connector with a dent in the long side opposite the ground pin; that indicates high operating temperature rating.) For lower power, there are "figure of 8" connectors. One has two wires (no ground). The other is 3 wire (with ground); the ground is in between the other two, offset to the side, a 120 degree or so equilateral triangle. That plug style is good for 3 amps or so. Some "brick" power supplies come with this; I think I had a Sony laptop once that did. All of those are IEC-nnn for suitable nnn. paul From doug at stillhq.com Tue Jan 20 16:26:13 2009 From: doug at stillhq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 09:26:13 +1100 Subject: SC/MP 8073 addressing query In-Reply-To: <51ea77730901201411pf3c64e2sffd7cb407d815953@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730901201411pf3c64e2sffd7cb407d815953@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49764F85.8040807@stillhq.com> Hi list, I have an interesting question regarding the INS8073 (National Semiconductor SC/MP 3 with BASIC in ROM). Finally, somebody gave me a round tuit, and I have started work on a simple 8073 system. Eventually, it will have 8K of ROM, 8K of RAM, an 8255, and a switch / LED interface. Currently on the board, I have the 6264 RAM tied to the 8073, with no address decoding (ie the CS* on the RAM is tied to A15 on the CPU). Sadly, as a simple test, this does not operate as I would expect. I would have expected that the RAM would have been selected anywhere in the lower 32K or the memory map, and I would have a simple system that would spit out a console prompt. But no luck. Now the question.... The internal ROM is located in the lowest 4K or the memory map. When the CPU is fetching data from the lower 4K, does it assert the NRDS line, and sample the external bus? My belief is that it does not, as the trivial application note that I have seen simply ties a couple of 2114 to the processor, and uses A10 as the chip select. Any ideas? Doug -- Doug Jackson, I-RAP, MAIPM, MIEEE Principal Information Security Consultant EWA-AUSTRALIA PO Box 6308 O'Connor ACT 2602 Level 1, 214 Northbourne Ave, Braddon ACT 2612 Tel: +61 (0)2 6230 6833 Fax: +61 (0)2 6230 5833 Mob: +61 (0)414 986 878 http://www.ewa-australia.com ============================================ IMPORTANT: This email remains the property of Electronic Warfare Associates - Australia. If you have received this email in error, you are requested to contact doug.jackson at ewa-australia.com or Ph +61 2 62306833 and delete the email. This message is not to be copied or distributed to other parties without the express permission of the author. Any personal information in this email must be handled in accordance with the Privacy Act 1988 (Cth). ============================================ From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Jan 20 16:31:12 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 17:31:12 -0500 Subject: Running 3 phase 780s on single phase power In-Reply-To: <49760320020000370004828C@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> References: <49760320020000370004828C@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Message-ID: <497650B0.2040200@gmail.com> Tim Shoppa wrote: >> The electrical >> engineer on our team very carefully located three phase-isolated outlets >> for us, working from the power panel outwards, before we did anything >> else. We tested the plug box for phase isolation before connecting >> either VAX, and we had every internal breaker off and every internal >> plug disconnected for several hours while we checked the power coming >> through the main breaker. > > In my experience with getting 3-phase power run, even though there's > a 50-50 chance that by pure luck he'll get the phasing correct to run the motors > in the right direction, I inevitably find that with 100% certainty that the > electrician has wired it up reverse of what is actually needed :-). That's called "Murphy's Law". 8-) Peace... Sridhar From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Jan 20 16:34:13 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 14:34:13 -0800 Subject: Running 3 phase 780s on single phase power In-Reply-To: <49764354.1020100@gmail.com> References: <200901191800.n0JI0DAh091509@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4974EE84.9070500@softjar.se> <18806.14767.694116.516562@gargle.gargle.HOWL>, <49764354.1020100@gmail.com> Message-ID: I have a VAX 6000, too (in my personal collection) and it's a different beast than the VAX-11s, for sure. The VAX-11 actually runs 110V single phase to each PDU and other component (e.g. LSI-11). The VAX 6000 takes in its mains feed and turns it into 300VDC, which goes to each of the 'regulators' (actually switchers) to be transformed to, for instance, 5V at arc-welding current levels. It also taps off a single leg to run a 24V supply, only loosely regulated if at all, that runs fans, and is also regulated to run the power-on sequencer. There's no transformer involved unless you're on a 50Hz system, according to DEC's documentation. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Sridhar Ayengar [ploopster at gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 1:34 PM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Running 3 phase 780s on single phase power Paul Koning wrote: > And finally, if you have a system that actually has a 3-phase input to > the DC supply (for example, 6 diodes from 3 center-tapped windings > feeding the ripple filter), then rewiring that input as 3 separate > single phase circuits is not going to work quite right, because you > will then have inadequate filtering (having replaced 360 Hz ripple by > 120 Hz ripple). It doesn't sound like this shows up in VAXen; I don't > know if it does in the KL-10; but I do know it is a consideration if > you're working on a CDC 6000 series machine because it has such supplies. Isn't that how the VAX 6000 is set up? I run a VAX 6000 on split-phase and it works just fine. Peace... Sridhar From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jan 20 16:54:13 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 17:54:13 -0500 Subject: SC/MP 8073 addressing query In-Reply-To: <49764F85.8040807@stillhq.com> References: <51ea77730901201411pf3c64e2sffd7cb407d815953@mail.gmail.com> <49764F85.8040807@stillhq.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 5:26 PM, Doug Jackson wrote: > Hi list, > > I have an interesting question regarding the INS8073 (National Semiconductor > SC/MP 3 with BASIC in ROM). > > Finally, somebody gave me a round tuit, and I have started work on a simple > 8073 system. Nice. > Eventually, it will have 8K of ROM, 8K of RAM, an 8255, and a switch / LED > interface. Currently on the board, I have the 6264 RAM tied to the 8073, > with no address decoding (ie the CS* on the RAM is tied to A15 on the CPU). OK. > Sadly, as a simple test, this does not operate as I would expect. I would > have expected that the RAM would have been selected anywhere in the lower > 32K or the memory map, and I would have a simple system that would spit out > a console prompt. But no luck. I think the problem is that you chose $8000 (A15). ISTR the system checks $8000 for some sort of signature and thinks that there's ROM there and jumps to it. You have to have RAM at $1000 for variables, $1100 for BASIC instructions in order for the onboard Tiny BASIC to work. For a simple system, you need to not have anything show up at $8000. > Now the question.... The internal ROM is located in the lowest 4K or the > memory map. When the CPU is fetching data from the lower 4K, does it assert > the NRDS line, and sample the external bus? My belief is that it does not, > as the trivial application note that I have seen simply ties a couple of > 2114 to the processor, and uses A10 as the chip select. > > Any ideas? I believe that is correct. NRDS is not asserted when addresses below $1000 (i.e. - on the chip) are invoked. I think you said elsewhere that you have the resistors on the correct data lines for the ROM code to pick up a baud rate value (the official address is, I think, at $FFC0 or close by - I think I've posted the details on the list before). I have a couple of INS8073 systems... one is the RB5X robot CPU board - it has discrete TTL decoding of most of the address space with '138s and '154s. It has RAM starting at $1000 and going up to around $3000 (8K onboard, with more possible with an expansion slot board). It has a ROM socket on the control panel (for ROM carriers) at $8000, and three 8255s as the primary I/O. I don't have the schematics in front of me, so I'm working from memory, but the details are published. The other 8073 system I have is an "MC-1N" SBC board that I've also posted about on this list. It is much simpler - the CPU, one 8255, a National Semi clock-calendar chip, a 2K SRAM, a socket for an optional ROM, level shifters for serial, and a 32x8 O.C. PROM (w/external pullups) for mapping the address space. It's much simpler - they piped A15-A11 of the CPU to A4-A0 of the ROM. When a device is supposed to be selected, there's a zero in the ROM map (low-true) that matches the address arrangement. There's selects for the 8255, the clock, the virtual baud-rate register (jumpers at the edge of the board), the ROM, the onboard, RAM, and three nonexistent 2K SRAMs (but one could add them without reprogramming the PROM). It really isn't overly complicated, so my guess is that either the system really didn't like you using A15, or there's something about the way you implemented the baud-rate register that the ROM code isn't recognizing. With an 8K SRAM, try A12 or A13. Also, check the states of the databus with the CPU removed to ensure that the "blank" value makes sense if the ROM code reads it and tries to decode that as serial speed jumper settings. I don't recall what the exact values are, but I do have docs for the MC-1N on a webpage, and those values should be in the INS8073 datasheets. ISTR the acceptable values are 300bps, 1200bps, and 4800bps, with a note that 4800bps isn't as reliable as the slower speeds. -ethan From toby at coreware.co.uk Tue Jan 20 16:59:18 2009 From: toby at coreware.co.uk (Tobias Russell) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 22:59:18 +0000 Subject: Getting a PDP-11/05, RX11, RX01 working In-Reply-To: References: <1232478873.25717.21.camel@spasmo> Message-ID: <1232492358.25717.46.camel@spasmo> > (SPC slot) > If the heads load and then the CPU halts on 000004, it might mean that > it can not read the first sector, or reads garbage. If the drive works > fine as RX02 ... is the floppy that you use as an RX01 formatted? > If the disk is RX02 formatted, you will certainly get read errors in > RX01-mode. The headers on RX01 and RX02 are identical, but the data in > each sector is NOT! > Hmm, that is a good point. I was fairly certain it was an RX01 disk but its not got any labelling on it to positively identify it as an RX01 or RX02 disk. I don't suppose anyone (I'm in the UK) has a RX01 disk with a bootable XXDP or RT-11 on it that I can borrow to test with? > You can look at the backplane and check if the CA1 pin is connected to > CB1 in the "RX11 SPC slot". If it is not, I would suggest to NOT to work > on the backplane, but check the RX11 board if those two contact fingers > are connected by a trace on the board itself. If it is not, solder a > jumper wire on the board, not on the backplane. Some older SPC boards > which are not "DMA" have a jumper wire, some not "DMA" boards do not > have the jumper, so it must be on the backplane. > Thanks for that. Will have a look and put a wire across if necessary. Best regards, Toby -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From fsmith at ladylinux.com Tue Jan 20 17:06:37 2009 From: fsmith at ladylinux.com (Francesca C. Smith) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 18:06:37 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 65, Issue 45 In-Reply-To: <200901202225.n0KMPYko015007@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901202225.n0KMPYko015007@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200901201806.37335.fsmith@ladylinux.com> On Tuesday 20 January 2009 17:25:42 cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: Hi Tim, Good Eye, I had to look inside but I found a sticker for a Ball Brothers Model TV-50 :-) The main logic card is in fact a generic Digital VT-100 logic board. Although I would guess the proms are different. Unfortunately the CRT neck is broke :-( Was not packed very well at all by the shipper I guess I can search around for a CRT somewheres unless anyone has a idea. ?? So I guess between this and that SB-11 (And a TU-58 I don't have) we have the makings of something interesting for sure. This system did at one time reside in the custody of a Harvard professor according to whom I got it from. Wish I knew a little more about what it was used for back in the day. > Ah, those are very interesting pictures. I'm pretty sure the CRT and cage > and PCB are Ball Brothers units, can you look for stickers with their name? > Ball Brothers made CRT+deflection circuitry+ flyback modules used in > other equipment, and at one point I even had > an IMSAI cabinet with backplane and a Ball Brothers CRT incorporated into > the front panel. -- Kindest Regards, No Problems Only Solutions Hosting Admins Baltimore, Maryland From fsmith at ladylinux.com Tue Jan 20 17:07:58 2009 From: fsmith at ladylinux.com (Francesca C. Smith) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 18:07:58 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 65, Issue 45 In-Reply-To: <200901202225.n0KMPYko015007@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901202225.n0KMPYko015007@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200901201807.58760.fsmith@ladylinux.com> On Tuesday 20 January 2009 17:25:42 cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: Hi Tim, Wow Good Eye Again :-) Yep there are markings over a couple connectors that say Aux Power And Restart. Someone put a piece of masking tape with +5 +12 VDC as well. So I have a mini PDP11 right here. (Reading that link however indicates its a little short on power. Makes one's head spin as this prob predates the IBM PC and what a different world we could have had if Digital had Bill Gates port 86-DOS to this rather than the IBM PC. Oh wait I kinda like my Digital hardware by and large spared the indignity of running M$ anything. :-) Bad enough the Alpha was polluted with that half hearted Win NT port. > Another thought about the SB-11... were those connectors on the back for > sending power to a companion TU-58 drive? Is the SB-11 the same form factor > as the external TU-58 enclosure? We never used them like that, we had > a top-bottom stacked dual 8" drive from... MTI? hooked to our SB-11. > > Tim. -- Kindest Regards, No Problems Only Solutions Hosting Admins Baltimore, Maryland From fsmith at ladylinux.com Tue Jan 20 17:16:30 2009 From: fsmith at ladylinux.com (Francesca C. Smith) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 18:16:30 -0500 Subject: SB-11 (Mailing List Faux Pas) In-Reply-To: <200901202225.n0KMPYko015007@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901202225.n0KMPYko015007@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200901201816.30838.fsmith@ladylinux.com> On Tuesday 20 January 2009 17:25:42 cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > I should have done the "Smart" thing and looked up BA11-VA on the google > :-) > > I see its a cute lil expansion box as I kinda though. Oh sorry for the top posting. I am a bit under the weather and I have a consulting customer who slaps me virtually if I don't top post. :-) Thanks for the help again identifying this stuff. I will be posting some more in the coming days as I am finally in enough health after the last few years being sick to start playing with the huge pile o vintage goodness crowding me and my family of cats out of house and home. (Although the cats seem to like playing balance on the old teetering PCs and 3100's on the top of the pile :-) ) Also missed was not including the original subject of I wish to ask a thousand pardons for that transgression as well. -- Kindest Regards, No Problems Only Solutions Hosting Admins Baltimore, Maryland From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Jan 20 17:15:37 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 23:15:37 +0000 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49765B19.3030503@dunnington.plus.com> On 20/01/2009 21:39, Tony Duell wrote: >>> I assume the input connector on the SMPSU is either an IEC plug or >>> one of those figure-of-8 connectors, or at least something stnadard. >> Figure-of-8? I suspect you're probably talking about the same thing, >> even though it doesn't quite look like most fonts' 8 to me. Here's a > > 'Figure of 8' is the common (although incorrect for many reasons) name > for the normal 2 pin main connector you find (found?) on cassette > recorders, radios, etc in the 1980s. I've seen it caleld a 'Telefunken > connector', although I suspect that name is dubious too. That is an IEC 320 C7 connector (the original Telefunken design is almost the same) rated for 2.5 amps, and it's very common even today. It's often found on things like laptop power bricks, and digital camera chargers. There's a slightly smaller and much less common version, without the notches that lead to the "figure of eight" name, which is IEC 320 C1. There's one other in not-quite-common use; a C5 is kind of like the C7 but with a third pin -- the earth -- above where one of the notches would be on C7. It's rated for 2.5 amps as well, and sometimes found on laptop power bricks. The common 3-pin plug (without a notch) sometimes quite wrongly referred to as a "kettle connector" over here, is an IEC 320 C13 connector. It's usually made of soft(ish) plastic. The version with the notch (which everywhere except in the States is rated for higher temperatures but not higher current, and is called a "hot condition" connector -- it really is a kettle connector, amongst other things) is a C15 and is usually made of hard plastic (for heat resistance), and the bigger rectangular one is IEC 320 C19. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Jan 20 17:25:31 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 23:25:31 +0000 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 65, Issue 45 In-Reply-To: <200901201806.37335.fsmith@ladylinux.com> References: <200901202225.n0KMPYko015007@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200901201806.37335.fsmith@ladylinux.com> Message-ID: <1232493931.29240.35.camel@elric> On Tue, 2009-01-20 at 18:06 -0500, Francesca C. Smith wrote: > On Tuesday 20 January 2009 17:25:42 cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Hi Tim, > > Good Eye, > > I had to look inside but I found a sticker for a Ball Brothers Model TV-50 :-) > > The main logic card is in fact a generic Digital VT-100 logic board. Although > I would guess the proms are different. > > Unfortunately the CRT neck is broke :-( > > Was not packed very well at all by the shipper > > I guess I can search around for a CRT somewheres unless anyone has a idea. ?? Every so often this crops up... Is it a black-and-white CRT? Do you know roughly what the scan rate is? Perhaps you could use a tube from a scrapped TV. They can't be *that* different. Gordon From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Jan 20 17:37:19 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 23:37:19 +0000 Subject: SB11 In-Reply-To: <200901201528.51265.fsmith@ladylinux.com> References: <200901201515.57639.fsmith@ladylinux.com> <200901201528.51265.fsmith@ladylinux.com> Message-ID: <4976602F.8050109@dunnington.plus.com> On 20/01/2009 20:28, Francesca C. Smith wrote: > On Tuesday 20 January 2009 15:15:57 Francesca C. Smith wrote: > Ok, > > I should have done the "Smart" thing and looked up BA11-VA on the google :-) > > I see its a cute lil expansion box as I kinda though. Not really -- it's a tabletop CPU/system box sold for OEM use -- in other words a standalone unit you'd build a small system, such as a process controller, into. It has a 2 x 2 backplane, arranged serpentine style, so you could put up to four dual-height cards in it. It has one gotcha -- no line-time clock. http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/PDP-11/QBus_chassis I don't think your monitor unit was ever meant for rack mounting, either. Apart from having no obvious mounting points for rails, the power inlet and switch would be inside and facing the side of the rack if the CRT were facing out the front. I expect it's a tabletop unit, or was mounted inside something else. Which is not to say it might not have once sat on a shelf in a rack, of course. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue Jan 20 18:20:30 2009 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 19:20:30 -0500 Subject: VT-100 BNC jacks Message-ID: <497623FE02000037000482CB@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Gordon writes: > On Tue, 2009-01-20 at 18:06 -0500, Francesca C. Smith wrote: >> On Tuesday 20 January 2009 17:25:42 cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: >> Hi Tim, >> >> Good Eye, >> >> I had to look inside but I found a sticker for a Ball Brothers Model TV-50 :-) >> >> The main logic card is in fact a generic Digital VT-100 logic board. Although >> I would guess the proms are different. >> >> Unfortunately the CRT neck is broke :-( >> >> Was not packed very well at all by the shipper >> >> I guess I can search around for a CRT somewheres unless anyone has a idea. ?? >Every so often this crops up... Is it a black-and-white CRT? Do you >know roughly what the scan rate is? >Perhaps you could use a tube from a scrapped TV. They can't be *that* >different. A regular VT-100 puts out composite/RS-170 video on a BNC jack on the back. (Classic problem from a few decades ago: people plugging the school's thinnet ethernet onto the VT-100 video out connector!) I don't see any BNC's on the back of Francesca's Franken-VT-100. But I'd be pretty sure the Ball Brothers unit just takes the composite video in. Didn't some early regular VT-100's use Ball Brothers screens and flybacks too? I remember a couple variations of the CRT/flyback boards some more reliable than the others. Somewhere I've got pictures of my garage completely filled with VT-100's! Tim. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Jan 20 18:37:04 2009 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 19:37:04 -0500 Subject: WTB TU-58 tapes Message-ID: <49766E30.5060603@compsys.to> I asked this before, however, I am repeating my request since I don't seem to have received any responses. I would like to purchase about 8 TU-58 tapes. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 20 15:53:18 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 13:53:18 -0800 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <4976302D.1010907@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <20090120113627.V53891@shell.lmi.net>, <4976302D.1010907@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4975D74E.19082.39264D4C@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Jan 2009 at 13:12, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote: > > On Tue, 20 Jan 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> I'm repeatedly surprised at the number of average folks who can't do > >> math in their heads--or long division on paper. > >> Whippersnappers! > > > > 8.5% sales tax on $10.00 ! > > > Umm $9.95 or $9.99. :) What's this "sales tax"? Cheers, Chuck From brain at jbrain.com Tue Jan 20 18:58:17 2009 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 18:58:17 -0600 Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49767329.4010802@jbrain.com> Tony Duell wrote: > If you really want to get me fuming, then simply say 'You're not trained > to repair '. No, I am not. Iv'e never been on any training course in > my life. On the other hand, I am darn sure I can repair any electrical or > mechancial device given the necessary informaion. Period. I do not need > 'special training' to fit a gear in a piece of office machinery, when, > I've been working with gears since before I went to scheol, and darn it, I > could cut said gear from scratch if I had to. > Hmmm... part of me really wants to say: "Hey, Tony, You are not trained to repair " just to see what the explosion, but I shall not. Jim From bob at copenhagen.cuug.ab.ca Tue Jan 20 18:52:30 2009 From: bob at copenhagen.cuug.ab.ca (Bob Bramwell) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 20:52:30 -0400 Subject: FREE: misc small hardware (mostly SUN) Message-ID: <27B1047D-E0B2-445B-89B9-543AD83897C6@copenhagen.cuug.ab.ca> Dear Gentlegeeks, Thank you for your generous offers to help unburden me of some classic hardware. I was so surprised by some of the stuff that generated interest that I thought I'd list a few more odds and ends that originally seemed just too ancient or oddball to mention: 1 x Artecon SB-16 (?) SBUS serial card. No breakout cable or anything like that. 1 x SUN 540-2007 serial/parallel controller breakout panel & cable (i.e. a metal box with rubber feet and 8 serial + 1 parallel female DB25 connectors on it + a big, beefy cable to connect it to whatever used to do the Real Work) 3 x mini-DIN - female DB25 SUN serial cables (I forget what model SUN they fit) 5 x SUN mini-DIN keyboard cables ? x various SUN SCSI cables with the Really Old connectors (DB50?) they used + a couple of terminators 3 x DB25 - CENT50 Apple SCSI cables 3 x Macintosh Hard Disk Toolkits (still shrink-wrapped) No one wants the SUN power supplies? I guess no one needs them while supplies last :-) Again, please contact me off-list if you are interested in any of this stuff. And PLEASE tell me approximately where it needs to be shipped so I can figure out how much it will cost. Cheers, Bob. Bob Bramwell | The birds have vanished into the sky, | and now the last cloud drains away. +1 902 531 2289 | We sit together, the mountain and I, | until only the mountain remains. | - Li Po, 8th Century Chinese poet From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Jan 20 15:06:12 2009 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 13:06:12 -0800 Subject: Running 3 phase 780s on single phase power In-Reply-To: References: <200901191800.n0JI0DAh091509@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4974EE84.9070500@softjar.se> Message-ID: On Jan 20, 2009, at 12:35 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > > The KL-10, like other DEC gear, uses 3-phase input power as the > simplest > way to get lots of amps into the system: 60A @ 208 3-phase. All of > this feeds into a single gigantic boat-anchor grade transformer which > forms the basis of a linear power supply. 2/3 of that power goes back > out as simple heat. Umm. No. That transformer is a ferro-resonant transformer. It *needs* 3-phase to work! It supplies the basic 12v DC that are then used to by the linear regulators. It's those that burn the power as heat. Replacing the linear regulators with switchers will reduce the consumed power by a lot. TTFN - Guy From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jan 20 21:53:32 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 22:53:32 -0500 Subject: Running 3 phase 780s on single phase power In-Reply-To: References: <200901191800.n0JI0DAh091509@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4974EE84.9070500@softjar.se> Message-ID: > Umm. No. That transformer is a ferro-resonant transformer. It *needs* > 3-phase to work! While I can not say anything about the KL10s transformer, it should be noted that some three phase transformers can work on a single phase. It depends on how the windings are laid. Some of the guys that run old broadcast transmitters on the ham bands use this trick. -- Will From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Jan 20 22:07:09 2009 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 20:07:09 -0800 Subject: Running 3 phase 780s on single phase power In-Reply-To: References: <200901191800.n0JI0DAh091509@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4974EE84.9070500@softjar.se> Message-ID: <3D3BBCC9-D8FC-4739-B787-BB2723348341@shiresoft.com> On Jan 20, 2009, at 7:53 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Umm. No. That transformer is a ferro-resonant transformer. It >> *needs* >> 3-phase to work! > > While I can not say anything about the KL10s transformer, it should be > noted that some three phase transformers can work on a single phase. > It depends on how the windings are laid. Some of the guys that run old > broadcast transmitters on the ham bands use this trick. The primary DC supply uses 3-phase (and the ferro-resonant transformer) so as to minimize the size of the filter capacitors needed (ie ripple). So even if the transformer would work on single phase (which I doubt) the DC coming out from the supply to feed the linear regulators would have *way* too much ripple. TTFN - Guy From ken at seefried.com Tue Jan 20 22:16:54 2009 From: ken at seefried.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 23:16:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: FSOT: two Lear Siegler ADM-3A terminals Message-ID: <20090121041654.024BA3800072F@portal.seefried.com> From: Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel > Or, like in my case, USD 10 for a quite nice one, with external numeric > keyboard and graphics option. From steerex at ccvn.com Tue Jan 20 08:08:58 2009 From: steerex at ccvn.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 09:08:58 -0500 Subject: FSOT Seequa Chameleon Message-ID: <1232460538.14174.6.camel@host-72-250-236-64.ccvn.com> Yo, I have a very nice Seequa Chameleon that needs a new home. It's in really nice condition except the carrying handle is missing. I'm not going to give it away but am willing to take a "reasonable" offer. Otherwise, it goes to the dump. If anyone is interested let me know at steerex [at] ccvn [dot] com BTW: I'm located in Western North Carolina. Steve Robertson From trovere at thevalleyscw.tv Tue Jan 20 10:24:42 2009 From: trovere at thevalleyscw.tv (Tim Rovere) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 11:24:42 -0500 Subject: MGE EPS 2000 UPS available Message-ID: <67A1B3EFB8C5DA4B988A43BFABF5573401979556@lockex01.wupv.internal> Do you still have the eps-2000 UPS ? From bruce at Wild-Hare.com Tue Jan 20 11:31:57 2009 From: bruce at Wild-Hare.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 10:31:57 -0700 Subject: Odd PDP-8/I References: <20090120124408.GA9318@Update.UU.SE> <20090120132330.GA10233@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <379201c97b25$00b9e900$4969fc4b@linksys> Both pictures of the pedestal-mount PDP-8/I were taken from my www.NovasAreForever.com web site, and are from a DEC brochure that introduced the PDP-8/i in 1968. I scanned the brochure after it received water/sewage damage, but had to tear out some of the front paper as it too damaged to be retained. (That is why the bottom right is ragged.) I have asked numerous DEC people if they have seen this marketing design, and nobody that I have talked to has seen one. Data General had a similar "pedestal mounted" Nova - which won an industrial design award. Only two were made for the marketing department, and neither have been seen since 1969. I keep searching, however. Bruce Ray Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. www.NovasAreForever.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pontus Pihlgren" To: Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 06:23 AM Subject: Re: Odd PDP-8/I >I sort of found an answer here. The pedestal version is mentioned in > the pdp-8 faq: > http://www.faqs.org/faqs/dec-faq/pdp8-models/section-5.html > > Also there are pictures in the maintenance manual: > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp8/pdp8i/DEC-8I-HR1A-D_8Imaint_Mar70.pdf > > Was this part of DEC marketing the PDP-8 as cute? it sure is :) > > The question remains though, has anyone seen it in the wild? What was it > used for? > > /P > > On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 01:44:08PM +0100, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> Hi >> >> In one of the computer clubs books there is a drawn picture of an odd >> PDP-8/I. A bit of googling gave this: >> >> http://blog.iso50.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/windowslivewriterpdp8is-2c248-i-01-thumb.jpg >> >> (Same picture, but bigger: ) >> http://blog.iso50.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/windowslivewriterpdp8is-2c248-i-01-2.jpg >> >> Has anyone seen it in the wild, its a pretty wierd form factor, reminds >> me about the H316 Kitchen computer. >> >> Cheers, >> Pontus > From ohh at panix.com Tue Jan 20 11:54:59 2009 From: ohh at panix.com (O. Sharp) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 12:54:59 -0500 (EST) Subject: Odd PDP-8/I In-Reply-To: <20090120132330.GA10233@Update.UU.SE> References: <20090120124408.GA9318@Update.UU.SE> <20090120132330.GA10233@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: Pontus Pihlgren wrote of pederstal-mount PDP-8/Is: > The question remains though, has anyone seen it in the wild? What was it > used for? Not the 8/I, or indeed amy member of the -8 series; but I have seen a pedestal-mount PDP-11 in the wild - most likely an 11/40 or 11/45 - which was used as a controller for an early theatrical lighting control board. It was in the Opera House in Seattle, and was long since retired when I came across it in the 1990s. Alas, it was destroyed a few years later during a building remodel. I wish I'd had the forethought to go after it. :/ -O.- From rwindham at chartertn.net Tue Jan 20 14:06:56 2009 From: rwindham at chartertn.net (Charles R. Windham) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 15:06:56 -0500 Subject: Subject: Re: substitute for TI TIL306/307 Display? Message-ID: Frank, I saw a post where you had some TIL308 displays. I need some of these for a Yaesu transcever. Do you still have some and what is the price? Regards, Chuck From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Jan 21 01:57:06 2009 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 08:57:06 +0100 Subject: Odd PDP-8/I In-Reply-To: <379201c97b25$00b9e900$4969fc4b@linksys> References: <20090120124408.GA9318@Update.UU.SE> <20090120132330.GA10233@Update.UU.SE> <379201c97b25$00b9e900$4969fc4b@linksys> Message-ID: <20090121075705.GA12625@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 10:31:57AM -0700, Bruce Ray wrote: > Both pictures of the pedestal-mount PDP-8/I were taken from my > www.NovasAreForever.com web site, and are from a DEC brochure that > introduced the PDP-8/i in 1968. I scanned the brochure after it received > water/sewage damage, but had to tear out some of the front paper as it > too damaged to be retained. (That is why the bottom right is ragged.) > > I have asked numerous DEC people if they have seen this marketing design, > and nobody that I have talked to has seen one. > > Data General had a similar "pedestal mounted" Nova - which won an > industrial design award. Only two were made for the marketing > department, and neither have been seen since 1969. I keep searching, > however. Thanks for doing the research and shedding some light on it. I guess I should have searched the archives beforehand as well. Your thread from 2001 was interesting: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2001-April/168654.html From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Jan 21 01:59:15 2009 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 08:59:15 +0100 Subject: Odd PDP-8/I In-Reply-To: References: <20090120124408.GA9318@Update.UU.SE> <20090120132330.GA10233@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20090121075915.GB12625@Update.UU.SE> > Not the 8/I, or indeed amy member of the -8 series; but I have seen a > pedestal-mount PDP-11 in the wild - most likely an 11/40 or 11/45 - > which was used as a controller for an early theatrical lighting control > board. It was in the Opera House in Seattle, and was long since retired > when I came across it in the 1990s. Sounds like a cool beast :) > > Alas, it was destroyed a few years later during a building remodel. I > wish I'd had the forethought to go after it. :/ Oh well, so many computers so little time. Unfortunate that the more odd ones are lost though. Cheers, Pontus. From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Jan 21 05:17:24 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 06:17:24 -0500 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <4975B55B.24134.38A1B208@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20090120110905.I53891@shell.lmi.net> <4975B55B.24134.38A1B208@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200901210617.24514.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 20 January 2009 02:28:27 pm Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 20 Jan 2009 at 11:13, Fred Cisin wrote: > > OK, more ignorant than stupid. > > What percentage can calculate a square root without a calculator? > > I'm repeatedly surprised at the number of average folks who can't do > math in their heads--or long division on paper. > > Whippersnappers! Used to be that using a calculator was considered *cheating*. Now they recommend specific models... :-( -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Jan 21 05:37:18 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 06:37:18 -0500 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <18806.20322.125154.87324@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200901192143.QAA29873@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <18806.20322.125154.87324@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <200901210637.19184.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 20 January 2009 05:25:38 pm Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Tony" == Tony Duell writes: > >> > I assume the input connector on the SMPSU is either an IEC plug > >> > >> or > one of those figure-of-8 connectors, or at least something > >> stnadard. > >> > >> Figure-of-8? I suspect you're probably talking about the same > >> thing, even though it doesn't quite look like most fonts' 8 to me. > >> Here's a > > Tony> 'Figure of 8' is the common (although incorrect for many > Tony> reasons) name for the normal 2 pin main connector you find > Tony> (found?) on cassette recorders, radios, etc in the 1980s. I've > Tony> seen it caleld a 'Telefunken connector', although I suspect > Tony> that name is dubious too. > > Perhaps the same, perhaps not -- there are a number of IEC mains > connectors. There is the 5 sided one found on many computers, which > is rated at 10 or 13 amps depending on country. A less common variant > (also 5-sided) has the blades parallel to the long edge rather than > the short edge -- 16 or 20 amps. (There's also a version of the 13 > amp connector with a dent in the long side opposite the ground pin; > that indicates high operating temperature rating.) I've not seen either of the latter two (yet). > For lower power, there are "figure of 8" connectors. One has two > wires (no ground). The other is 3 wire (with ground); the ground is > in between the other two, offset to the side, a 120 degree or so > equilateral triangle. That plug style is good for 3 amps or so. Some > "brick" power supplies come with this; I think I had a Sony laptop > once that did. Of the two laptops here, I have one of each of those, this Sony having the two-pin variant and the Dell I was using before that having the three-pin variant. At one point I had the Dell with me but not the cord (and the battery on that one is unusable) and I had no difficulty in finding one to use. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From fryers at gmail.com Wed Jan 21 05:40:54 2009 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 11:40:54 +0000 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <200901210617.24514.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <20090120110905.I53891@shell.lmi.net> <4975B55B.24134.38A1B208@cclist.sydex.com> <200901210617.24514.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: On 21/01/2009, Roy J. Tellason wrote: [chomp] > Used to be that using a calculator was considered *cheating*. Now they > recommend specific models... :-( For a few years, having a calculator would not have helped in my maths exams. I now have a HP49G (9 years old, so nearly on topic) that can do the algebra for me. The only down side - the work I have been doing for the last 7 years has not required any real maths and I am forgetting it. :( I keep on thinking that I should know the maths on how to set up and undertake certain basic (complex) engineering calculations, and just not being able to - and getting rather frustrated! Hitting my text books again is on my todo list! :) Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Jan 21 05:49:37 2009 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 06:49:37 -0500 Subject: WTB TU-58 tapes In-Reply-To: <49766E30.5060603@compsys.to> References: <49766E30.5060603@compsys.to> Message-ID: <24186.1232538577@mini> "Jerome H. Fine" wrote: >I asked this before, however, I am repeating my request since >I don't seem to have received any responses. > >I would like to purchase about 8 TU-58 tapes. The last time I searched, a box of 10 was $600. I'll see if I can dig up whom I ask for - it was a tape media dealer. I just used google. A few years ago someone in california contacted me looking for 11/730 boot tapes. I said I'd make some, but I needed some cash up front to cover the $600. I never heard back. I suspect there are some military 11/730's somewhere which won't boot. -brad From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Jan 21 06:21:04 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 12:21:04 +0000 Subject: Running 3 phase 780s on single phase power In-Reply-To: References: <200901191800.n0JI0DAh091509@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4974EE84.9070500@softjar.se> Message-ID: <1232540464.15972.9.camel@elric> On Tue, 2009-01-20 at 13:06 -0800, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > On Jan 20, 2009, at 12:35 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > > > > The KL-10, like other DEC gear, uses 3-phase input power as the > > simplest > > way to get lots of amps into the system: 60A @ 208 3-phase. All of > > this feeds into a single gigantic boat-anchor grade transformer which > > forms the basis of a linear power supply. 2/3 of that power goes back > > out as simple heat. > > Umm. No. That transformer is a ferro-resonant transformer. It > *needs* 3-phase to work! It supplies the basic 12v DC that are then > used to by the linear regulators. It's those that burn the power as > heat. Replacing the linear regulators with switchers will reduce the > consumed power by a lot. Since extremely high current switchers are relatively cheap (at least compared to getting three-phase installed, and massive aircon systems), is there any reason why you *wouldn't* go down this route? Particularly for a machine that's going to be on a lot? Gordon From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Jan 21 06:27:16 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 12:27:16 +0000 Subject: Russian PDP11 CPU chips on ebay... Message-ID: <1232540836.15972.10.camel@elric> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=12036621970 Two things I wonder about: How many has he got, and how hard would it be to make an SBC-6120-alike for the -11 with that? Gordon From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Jan 21 06:40:56 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 12:40:56 +0000 Subject: Russian PDP11 CPU chips on ebay... In-Reply-To: <1232540836.15972.10.camel@elric> References: <1232540836.15972.10.camel@elric> Message-ID: <1232541656.15972.11.camel@elric> On Wed, 2009-01-21 at 12:27 +0000, Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=12036621970 I fail at cut and paste: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120366219702 From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Jan 21 06:43:36 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 12:43:36 +0000 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <200901210637.19184.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200901192143.QAA29873@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <18806.20322.125154.87324@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200901210637.19184.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1232541816.15972.13.camel@elric> On Wed, 2009-01-21 at 06:37 -0500, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Of the two laptops here, I have one of each of those, this Sony having the > two-pin variant and the Dell I was using before that having the three-pin > variant. At one point I had the Dell with me but not the cord (and the > battery on that one is unusable) and I had no difficulty in finding one to > use. "Figure 8" leads will fit "cloverleaf" sockets anyway, at a pinch. Since the PSU is double-insulated it makes no difference whether the earth is connected. This has saved one IBM techie at least from embarrassment after turning up with the adaptor but not the cloverleaf lead for his thinkpad at an important talk... Gordon From emu at e-bbes.com Wed Jan 21 07:06:27 2009 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emu at e-bbes.com) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 14:06:27 +0100 Subject: Russian PDP11 CPU chips on ebay... In-Reply-To: <1232540836.15972.10.camel@elric> References: <1232540836.15972.10.camel@elric> Message-ID: <20090121140627.2kl7kt29kwwosk0c@webmail.opentransfer.com> Quoting Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ : > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=12036621970 > > Two things I wonder about: How many has he got, and how hard would it > be to make an SBC-6120-alike for the -11 with that? What's wrong with the original J11's ? I think they look even nicer than the black ones ... And then you could make something like a PRO-385 ;-) From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Jan 21 07:31:58 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 13:31:58 +0000 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <200901210637.19184.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200901192143.QAA29873@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <18806.20322.125154.87324@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200901210637.19184.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <497723CE.1030609@dunnington.plus.com> On 21/01/2009 11:37, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Tuesday 20 January 2009 05:25:38 pm Paul Koning wrote: >> Perhaps the same, perhaps not -- there are a number of IEC mains >> connectors. There is the 5 sided one found on many computers, which >> is rated at 10 or 13 amps depending on country. A less common variant >> (also 5-sided) has the blades parallel to the long edge rather than >> the short edge -- 16 or 20 amps. I think Paul means 6-sided (top, bottom, two sides, two bevelled corners) :-) The second one he mentions is not very common in my experience, but the 16A/20A four-sided C19 is found on some SGI, HP and Sun equipment, on APC UPSs, and several other devices. (There's also a version of the 13 >> amp connector with a dent in the long side opposite the ground pin; >> that indicates high operating temperature rating.) > > I've not seen either of the latter two (yet). The hot-condition one is often found on Cisco and HP network switches that draw relatively high currents. >> For lower power, there are "figure of 8" connectors. One has two >> wires (no ground). The other is 3 wire (with ground); the ground is >> in between the other two, offset to the side, a 120 degree or so >> equilateral triangle. That plug style is good for 3 amps or so. 2.5A, same as the two-pin figure-of-eight. Have a look at http://www.accesscomms.com.au/reference/iec320.htm for some diagrams and current and temperature ratings. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From fsmith at ladylinux.com Wed Jan 21 08:01:42 2009 From: fsmith at ladylinux.com (Francesca C. Smith) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 09:01:42 -0500 Subject: SB-11 In-Reply-To: <200901211119.n0LBJnR1026072@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901211119.n0LBJnR1026072@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200901210901.42970.fsmith@ladylinux.com> On Wednesday 21 January 2009 06:19:57 Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: > Every so often this crops up... ?Is it a black-and-white CRT? ?Do you > know roughly what the scan rate is? > > Perhaps you could use a tube from a scrapped TV. ?They can't be *that* > different. Well the tube is about 4 inch in size. About the size of a old Osbourne. Not sure what it is since its broke. I guess time to remove it and look underneath for any markings. -- Kindest Regards, No Problems Only Solutions Hosting Admins Baltimore, Maryland From fsmith at ladylinux.com Wed Jan 21 08:06:11 2009 From: fsmith at ladylinux.com (Francesca C. Smith) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 09:06:11 -0500 Subject: SB11 In-Reply-To: <200901211119.n0LBJnR1026072@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901211119.n0LBJnR1026072@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200901210906.11545.fsmith@ladylinux.com> On Wednesday 21 January 2009 06:19:57 Pete Turnbull wrote: > Not really -- it's a tabletop CPU/system box sold for OEM use -- in > other words a standalone unit you'd build a small system, such as a > process controller, into. It has a 2 x 2 backplane, arranged serpentine > style, so you could put up to four dual-height cards in it. It has one > gotcha -- no line-time clock. > > http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/PDP-11/QBus_chassis > > I don't think your monitor unit was ever meant for rack mounting, > either. Apart from having no obvious mounting points for rails, the > power inlet and switch would be inside and facing the side of the rack > if the CRT were facing out the front. I expect it's a tabletop unit, or > was mounted inside something else. Which is not to say it might not > have once sat on a shelf in a rack, of course. Ahh well no Line time clock is a gotcha. :-) Would have been a little easier to Divine its true use if the complement of cards were still in it. Well then what use would this be to a hobbyist other than the obvious hollow it out and stick a PC MB in it and create some Sim pdp11 thing ?? -- Kindest Regards, No Problems Only Solutions Hosting Admins Baltimore, Maryland From tshoppa at wmata.com Wed Jan 21 08:09:31 2009 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 09:09:31 -0500 Subject: Running 3 phase 780s on single phase power Message-ID: <4976E64B0200003700048360@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Gordon writes: > Since extremely high current switchers are relatively cheap (at least > compared to getting three-phase installed, and massive aircon systems), > is there any reason why you *wouldn't* go down this route? Particularly > for a machine that's going to be on a lot? Go too far down that road and you just have a KL10 cabinet with a PC-clone emulator inside. At which point you may as well have kept the KL10 original and just had a PC-clone running an emulator too. Seeing as how the major operators of KL10's in the 80's were already retrofitting switchers in, I don't think that putting switchers in today would be the worst thing to do. But I bet the KL10's owner went out of his way to find one as original as possible, possibly passing over ones that had been retrofitted 15 or 20 years ago. One of the most enlightened attitudes is that since all 10's after the KI were already emulating (via microcode) a PDP-10, why not just do the emulation on a little PC-clone and call the operating system and emulator package "microcode"? Tim. From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Jan 21 08:13:42 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 09:13:42 -0500 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <497723CE.1030609@dunnington.plus.com> References: <200901192143.QAA29873@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <200901210637.19184.rtellason@verizon.net> <497723CE.1030609@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <200901210913.42612.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 21 January 2009, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 21/01/2009 11:37, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > On Tuesday 20 January 2009 05:25:38 pm Paul Koning wrote: > >> amp connector with a dent in the long side opposite the ground > >> pin; that indicates high operating temperature rating.) > > > > I've not seen either of the latter two (yet). > > The hot-condition one is often found on Cisco and HP network switches > that draw relatively high currents. Also, it's used on DEC BA213 cabinets, like a DECserver 500 and VAX 4000/300. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From fsmith at ladylinux.com Wed Jan 21 08:15:19 2009 From: fsmith at ladylinux.com (Francesca C. Smith) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 09:15:19 -0500 Subject: VT-100 BNC jacks In-Reply-To: <200901211119.n0LBJnR1026072@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901211119.n0LBJnR1026072@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200901210915.19551.fsmith@ladylinux.com> On Wednesday 21 January 2009 06:19:57 Tim Shoppa wrote: > A regular VT-100 puts out composite/RS-170 video on a BNC jack on the back. > (Classic problem from a few decades ago: people plugging the school's > thinnet ethernet onto the VT-100 video out connector!) > > I don't see any BNC's on the back of Francesca's Franken-VT-100. But > I'd be pretty sure the Ball Brothers unit just takes the composite video > in. > > Didn't some early regular VT-100's use Ball Brothers screens and flybacks > too? I remember a couple variations of the CRT/flyback boards some more > reliable than the others. Somewhere I've got pictures of my garage > completely filled with VT-100's! Hi actually it does have those BNC's and yes when I was working at JPL back in the old days I had to explain to a person in charge of one of the computing department's that in fact they could not create a network series of VT-100's using the then new Thin Net network being installed lab wide. :-) The problem is the small size of the tube actually. Now the part that is broke is the neck. I am thinking maybe I can find a smaller CRT from a scope or so to replace it. But that would be after I tear this thing apart since the label for the crt itself is of course upside down and blocked by the flyback/scan board. I do see a E C as a possible company name on it. -- Kindest Regards, No Problems Only Solutions Hosting Admins Baltimore, Maryland From ian_primus at yahoo.com Wed Jan 21 08:24:48 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 06:24:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: VT-100 BNC jacks In-Reply-To: <200901210915.19551.fsmith@ladylinux.com> Message-ID: <411475.59471.qm@web52701.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 1/21/09, Francesca C. Smith wrote: > The problem is the small size of the tube actually. Now the > part that is broke > is the neck. I am thinking maybe I can find a smaller CRT > from a scope or so > to replace it. But that would be after I tear this thing > apart since the label > for the crt itself is of course upside down and blocked by > the flyback/scan > board. I do see a E C as a possible company name on it. > What's the size of the tube? The real VT100 had a 12" tube, but I don't know about your VT100 clone. You should be able to rob a tube from another terminal, or a portable B&W TV set and replace it. If it's a 9" tube, hunt down an old security monitor. A scope tube isn't going to work - those use drastically different deflection angles (and in some cases electrostatic deflection). -Ian From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Jan 21 08:28:20 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 08:28:20 -0600 Subject: FSOT Seequa Chameleon In-Reply-To: <1232460538.14174.6.camel@host-72-250-236-64.ccvn.com> References: <1232460538.14174.6.camel@host-72-250-236-64.ccvn.com> Message-ID: <49773104.4040103@gmail.com> Steve Robertson wrote: > I'm not > going to give it away but am willing to take a "reasonable" offer. > Otherwise, it goes to the dump. Hmm - I'm struggling with the concept of "I want money for it or I'm going to throw it away for nothing". From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Jan 21 08:44:07 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 14:44:07 +0000 Subject: SB11 In-Reply-To: <200901210906.11545.fsmith@ladylinux.com> References: <200901211119.n0LBJnR1026072@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200901210906.11545.fsmith@ladylinux.com> Message-ID: <1232549047.15972.22.camel@elric> On Wed, 2009-01-21 at 09:06 -0500, Francesca C. Smith wrote: > Ahh well no Line time clock is a gotcha. :-) Would have been a little easier > to Divine its true use if the complement of cards were still in it. Doesn't mean you can't add one. You could use a small transformer to generate it really from the line, or a little crystal oscillator and divider. In fact, if I was going to make an add-in LTC I'd use one of the little 8-pin microcontrollers, programmed to generate 50Hz or 60Hz from a GPIO pin. "Overkill!" I hear some of the list regulars shout (and you know who you are, too). Not a bit of it - compare a 12C509 with the cost of even a "common" crystal... > Well then what use would this be to a hobbyist other than the obvious hollow > it out and stick a PC MB in it and create some Sim pdp11 thing ?? I'd build a little dinky PDP11 in it, with an added-on LTC as described above so I could run TSX+. I kind of miss my PDP11, and I'd like to get another (smaller) one. Gordon From frustum at pacbell.net Wed Jan 21 09:36:17 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 09:36:17 -0600 Subject: FSOT Seequa Chameleon In-Reply-To: <49773104.4040103@gmail.com> References: <1232460538.14174.6.camel@host-72-250-236-64.ccvn.com> <49773104.4040103@gmail.com> Message-ID: <497740F1.3050509@pacbell.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > Steve Robertson wrote: >> I'm not >> going to give it away but am willing to take a "reasonable" offer. >> Otherwise, it goes to the dump. > > Hmm - I'm struggling with the concept of "I want money for it or I'm > going to throw it away for nothing". Steve can speak for himself, but my guess is the thinking is like this. (1) getting paid a nominal amount of money makes it worth the time to go to the hassle of packing it properly and going to the post office (2) tossing it out takes no time, money, or supplies (3) either is personally acceptable (4) taking time, effort, and supplies to properly pack it and go to the post office and getting nothing in return isn't acceptable. Another possible angle is: there are many people who will take things for free who don't really need it since it is free. Someone willing to pay for it is more likely to really need/appreciate it. I've given things away for free on craigslist, had people claim interest, then when it comes time to come get it, I hear: boy, you are far away; can you drive 10-15 miles to make it easier for me? From lehmann at ans-netz.de Wed Jan 21 10:28:14 2009 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 17:28:14 +0100 Subject: harddisks again Message-ID: <20090121172814.bf57ebd4.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Hi, now I got some "models" a guy is offering me but I'm not sure about their interface: IBM 1615600 MOD 1 10SR-1 IBM 62 PC Magnetic Peripherals 47073251 Seagate Sabre 368 (92651505) Seagate ST43200K The Seagate Sabre seems to be SMD (I'm looking for SA1000 and a friend of mine is looking for SMD disks) Anyone else knows the interface of the above listed disk drives? -- Oliver Lehmann http://www.pofo.de/ http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ From fryers at gmail.com Wed Jan 21 10:35:16 2009 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 16:35:16 +0000 Subject: harddisks again In-Reply-To: <20090121172814.bf57ebd4.lehmann@ans-netz.de> References: <20090121172814.bf57ebd4.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Message-ID: Feeling the power of google, doing nothing more that cutting and pasting, I can tell you that the ST43200K is most likely IPI. On 21/01/2009, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > Hi, > > now I got some "models" a guy is offering me but I'm not sure about their > interface: > > IBM 1615600 MOD 1 10SR-1 > IBM 62 PC > Magnetic Peripherals 47073251 > Seagate Sabre 368 (92651505) > Seagate ST43200K > > The Seagate Sabre seems to be SMD (I'm looking for SA1000 and a friend of > mine is looking for SMD disks) > Anyone else knows the interface of the above listed disk drives? > > -- > Oliver Lehmann > http://www.pofo.de/ > http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ > -- Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Wed Jan 21 10:40:28 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 11:40:28 -0500 Subject: Running 3 phase 780s on single phase power References: <200901191800.n0JI0DAh091509@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4974EE84.9070500@softjar.se> <1232540464.15972.9.camel@elric> Message-ID: <18807.20476.484434.177276@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> >>>>> "Gordon" == Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ writes: Gordon> Since extremely high current switchers are relatively cheap Gordon> (at least compared to getting three-phase installed, and Gordon> massive aircon systems), is there any reason why you Gordon> *wouldn't* go down this route? Particularly for a machine Gordon> that's going to be on a lot? If you have an RP06 you need 3-phase anyway... Note that you can generate 3 phase power from a 1 phase supply. There are electronic devices to do this ("variable frequency converters", devices intended to drive motors) up to 2 kW or so. Those can also produce odd frequencies, so they might be a suitable substitute for a CDC motor generator (for 400 Hz power). For higher power you can get a "rotary phase converter" which is just a 3 phase motor with some trick wiring. Those are more expensive though they are easy to build from a suitable size surplus motor plus some capacitors. paul From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Wed Jan 21 10:43:36 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 11:43:36 -0500 Subject: hams on classiccmp References: <200901192143.QAA29873@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <18806.20322.125154.87324@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200901210637.19184.rtellason@verizon.net> <1232541816.15972.13.camel@elric> Message-ID: <18807.20664.4163.100811@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> >>>>> "Gordon" == Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ writes: Gordon> On Wed, 2009-01-21 at 06:37 -0500, Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> Of the two laptops here, I have one of each of those, this Sony >> having the two-pin variant and the Dell I was using before that >> having the three-pin variant. At one point I had the Dell with me >> but not the cord (and the battery on that one is unusable) and I >> had no difficulty in finding one to use. Gordon> "Figure 8" leads will fit "cloverleaf" sockets anyway, at a Gordon> pinch. Since the PSU is double-insulated it makes no Gordon> difference whether the earth is connected. Odd. The usual assumption is that the presence of an earth wire means grounding is required, and using the device without one is a violation of safety regulations. Then again, it's certainly possible that it merely violates regulations, not reality. paul From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Wed Jan 21 10:46:03 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 11:46:03 -0500 Subject: Russian PDP11 CPU chips on ebay... References: <1232540836.15972.10.camel@elric> <20090121140627.2kl7kt29kwwosk0c@webmail.opentransfer.com> Message-ID: <18807.20811.12039.332326@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> >>>>> "emu" == emu writes: emu> Quoting Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ : >> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=12036621970 >> >> Two things I wonder about: How many has he got, and how hard would >> it be to make an SBC-6120-alike for the -11 with that? emu> What's wrong with the original J11's ? I think they look even emu> nicer than the black ones ... emu> And then you could make something like a PRO-385 ;-) Wouldn't it be a PRO-380? Well, unless you can clock it at 20 MHz which was the original plan for the 380, but the J-11 failed to deliver so they ended up at 10. Note that making a PRO-38x means you have to reverse engineer the I/O control gate array and the video hardware, both of which are likely to be serious exercises in masochism. (Why reverse engineer the most bone-headed I/O design in the history of DEC?) Either that, or a lot of discrete parts to make a PRO-350 clone. paul From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Jan 21 10:57:09 2009 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 08:57:09 -0800 Subject: Running 3 phase 780s on single phase power In-Reply-To: <18807.20476.484434.177276@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> References: <200901191800.n0JI0DAh091509@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4974EE84.9070500@softjar.se> <1232540464.15972.9.camel@elric> <18807.20476.484434.177276@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> Message-ID: <4FB6299E-3DA3-4A6B-88BA-3C7C81AA1088@shiresoft.com> On Jan 21, 2009, at 8:40 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >>>>>> "Gordon" == Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ writes: > > Gordon> Since extremely high current switchers are relatively cheap > Gordon> (at least compared to getting three-phase installed, and > Gordon> massive aircon systems), is there any reason why you > Gordon> *wouldn't* go down this route? Particularly for a machine > Gordon> that's going to be on a lot? Well you still need a lot of each. And finding -5.2v and -2v high current regulators isn't *that* easy. The 12v DC supply in the KL-10 supplies 500A. I think each -5.2v regulator supplies 30A and there's 5-7 of them (if memory serves...I haven't looked at the power supplies in my KL for a while). There's a similar number of -2v regulators but slightly less current. > > > If you have an RP06 you need 3-phase anyway... > > Note that you can generate 3 phase power from a 1 phase supply. There > are electronic devices to do this ("variable frequency converters", > devices intended to drive motors) up to 2 kW or so. Those can also > produce odd frequencies, so they might be a suitable substitute for a > CDC motor generator (for 400 Hz power). For higher power you can get > a "rotary phase converter" which is just a 3 phase motor with some > trick wiring. Those are more expensive though they are easy to build > from a suitable size surplus motor plus some capacitors. One of the big problems in dealing with this is the in-rush current which is *really* impressive. Go look at the KL10 installation manual on the specs. It's a bit scary to have an in-rush current that high (for up to 1-2 seconds). I don't know if those converters are set up for those kinds of in-rush current. My understanding was they were set up more for inductive loads (ie motors) but never having dealt with them, I'm working from ignorance. I just recall a friend who worked at KSC during Apollo where NASA had something like a 2-4 ton flywheel to be power the critical launch systems in the event of a power failure (to give time for the backup generators to kick in). They'd launched several Apollo missions when they decided to test a power failure during launch scenario (simulated). His description was that there was the sound of a bomb going off as the lights went out. Analysis afterwards indicated that the flywheel stopped in about 1/4 of a revolution! TTFN - Guy From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Jan 21 11:02:20 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 17:02:20 +0000 Subject: SB11 In-Reply-To: <200901210906.11545.fsmith@ladylinux.com> References: <200901211119.n0LBJnR1026072@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200901210906.11545.fsmith@ladylinux.com> Message-ID: <4977551C.2000007@dunnington.plus.com> On 21/01/2009 14:06, Francesca C. Smith wrote: > Ahh well no Line time clock is a gotcha. :-) Would have been a little easier > to Divine its true use if the complement of cards were still in it. > > Well then what use would this be to a hobbyist other than the obvious hollow > it out and stick a PC MB in it and create some Sim pdp11 thing ?? Not having the LTC (BEVENT) signal isn't a gotcha if you're running a system that doesn't need a real time clock (hard realtime systems wouldn't do timeslicing, for example, and RT-11 can run without an LTC) or if you use something like a Falcon/Falcon-Plus/SBC-11 processor which has an on-board clock, or include a KWV11 or KPV11. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Jan 21 11:03:35 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 17:03:35 +0000 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <200901210913.42612.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200901192143.QAA29873@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <200901210637.19184.rtellason@verizon.net> <497723CE.1030609@dunnington.plus.com> <200901210913.42612.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <49775567.40508@dunnington.plus.com> On 21/01/2009 14:13, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Wednesday 21 January 2009, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> The hot-condition one is often found on Cisco and HP network switches >> that draw relatively high currents. > > Also, it's used on DEC BA213 cabinets, like a DECserver 500 and VAX > 4000/300. Ah, thanks for that -- I thought I'd seen one on DEC kit but I couldn't remember where. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Jan 21 11:03:41 2009 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 09:03:41 -0800 Subject: SB11 In-Reply-To: <200901201515.57639.fsmith@ladylinux.com> References: <200901201515.57639.fsmith@ladylinux.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90901210903t6b849b1dy18614e2765b5acc1@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 12:15 PM, Francesca C. Smith wrote: > > Also in that dir is a weirdo custom ?? VT100 with a tiny 4 inch screen. I am > guessing this all prob sat in some rack at one time. > > http://linuxgal.com/decstuff/display1.jpg > http://linuxgal.com/decstuff/display2.jpg > http://linuxgal.com/decstuff/display3.jpg > I have one of the same VT100 boxes in its original configuration, which is without any CRT and with a full metal skin around it with a handle on top making it somewhat like a giant lunchbox. In the VS11-FX/HX/JX Raster Graphics System Installation Manual EK-VSFHJ-IN-001 there are illustrations of this box being used in combination with a VRV02-AA/AB color monitor where the box is refered to as the "keyboard interface box" and the combination of the monitor and the "keyboard interface box" makes up the VRV02-FA/FB. The "keyboard interface box" video output feeds into the VS11 where the terminal video output is then fed back out along with the VS11 raster graphics output to the monitor. The VS11 is the M7061-YA / M7062 / M7064 Q-BUS board set. Maybe there were multiple products made from the VT100 lunchbox, or maybe only the VRV02 "keyboard interface box" and someone took one of those and grafted a CRT onto it to make it a standalone terminal. -Glen From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Wed Jan 21 11:08:02 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 12:08:02 -0500 Subject: Running 3 phase 780s on single phase power References: <200901191800.n0JI0DAh091509@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4974EE84.9070500@softjar.se> <1232540464.15972.9.camel@elric> <18807.20476.484434.177276@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> <4FB6299E-3DA3-4A6B-88BA-3C7C81AA1088@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <18807.22130.873500.327137@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> >>>>> "Guy" == Guy Sotomayor writes: >> Note that you can generate 3 phase power from a 1 phase supply. >> There are electronic devices to do this ("variable frequency >> converters", devices intended to drive motors) up to 2 kW or so. >> Those can also produce odd frequencies, so they might be a >> suitable substitute for a CDC motor generator (for 400 Hz power). >> For higher power you can get a "rotary phase converter" which is >> just a 3 phase motor with some trick wiring. Those are more >> expensive though they are easy to build from a suitable size >> surplus motor plus some capacitors. Guy> One of the big problems in dealing with this is the in-rush Guy> current which is *really* impressive. Go look at the KL10 Guy> installation manual on the specs. It's a bit scary to have an Guy> in-rush current that high (for up to 1-2 seconds). I don't know Guy> if those converters are set up for those kinds of in-rush Guy> current. My understanding was they were set up more for Guy> inductive loads (ie motors) but never having dealt with them, Guy> I'm working from ignorance. Motors are the original "high starting current" devices. That's why protection devices for motors are different from conventional circuit breakers. A "locked rotor" motor draws a LOT more current than a spinning one -- some vague memory says it might be 10x or so. And the initial surge as the motor is accelerating looks like the locked rotor case, briefly. How briefly depends on the machinery that the motor is driving; if it's a high load it could take some time before the motor is spun up to speed. paul From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jan 21 11:32:00 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 12:32:00 -0500 Subject: Running 3 phase 780s on single phase power In-Reply-To: <4FB6299E-3DA3-4A6B-88BA-3C7C81AA1088@shiresoft.com> References: <200901191800.n0JI0DAh091509@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4974EE84.9070500@softjar.se> <1232540464.15972.9.camel@elric> <18807.20476.484434.177276@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> <4FB6299E-3DA3-4A6B-88BA-3C7C81AA1088@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: > One of the big problems in dealing with this is the in-rush current which is > *really* impressive. Go look at the KL10 installation manual on the specs. > It's a bit scary to have an in-rush current that high (for up to 1-2 > seconds). I don't know if those converters are set up for those kinds of > in-rush current. My understanding was they were set up more for inductive > loads (ie motors) but never having dealt with them, I'm working from > ignorance. It should not be a problem - the wiring in your building can certainly take a short overload like that. If you are concerned, you can put a motor starter in the line that drops a low value resistance in for a tiny amount of time just at startup. -- Will From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Jan 21 11:35:15 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 17:35:15 +0000 Subject: Running 3 phase 780s on single phase power In-Reply-To: References: <200901191800.n0JI0DAh091509@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4974EE84.9070500@softjar.se> <1232540464.15972.9.camel@elric> <18807.20476.484434.177276@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> <4FB6299E-3DA3-4A6B-88BA-3C7C81AA1088@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <1232559315.15972.26.camel@elric> On Wed, 2009-01-21 at 12:32 -0500, William Donzelli wrote: > > One of the big problems in dealing with this is the in-rush current which is > > *really* impressive. Go look at the KL10 installation manual on the specs. > > It's a bit scary to have an in-rush current that high (for up to 1-2 > > seconds). I don't know if those converters are set up for those kinds of > > in-rush current. My understanding was they were set up more for inductive > > loads (ie motors) but never having dealt with them, I'm working from > > ignorance. > > It should not be a problem - the wiring in your building can certainly > take a short overload like that. If you are concerned, you can put a > motor starter in the line that drops a low value resistance in for a > tiny amount of time just at startup. Or adapt a recoil start from a lawnmower engine, to give the motor a flick as you apply power. Gordon From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Jan 21 11:36:36 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 17:36:36 +0000 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <18807.20664.4163.100811@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> References: <200901192143.QAA29873@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <18806.20322.125154.87324@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <200901210637.19184.rtellason@verizon.net> <1232541816.15972.13.camel@elric> <18807.20664.4163.100811@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> Message-ID: <1232559396.15972.27.camel@elric> On Wed, 2009-01-21 at 11:43 -0500, Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Gordon" == Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ writes: > > Gordon> On Wed, 2009-01-21 at 06:37 -0500, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >> Of the two laptops here, I have one of each of those, this Sony > >> having the two-pin variant and the Dell I was using before that > >> having the three-pin variant. At one point I had the Dell with me > >> but not the cord (and the battery on that one is unusable) and I > >> had no difficulty in finding one to use. > > Gordon> "Figure 8" leads will fit "cloverleaf" sockets anyway, at a > Gordon> pinch. Since the PSU is double-insulated it makes no > Gordon> difference whether the earth is connected. > > Odd. The usual assumption is that the presence of an earth wire means > grounding is required, and using the device without one is a violation > of safety regulations. Then again, it's certainly possible that it > merely violates regulations, not reality. On all three (okay, a small sample set) of the Thinkpad PSUs I've opened up, the earth pin isn't connected, or is connected to a pad on the board and nothing else. Gordon From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jan 21 12:24:42 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 13:24:42 -0500 Subject: harddisks again In-Reply-To: <20090121172814.bf57ebd4.lehmann@ans-netz.de> References: <20090121172814.bf57ebd4.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Message-ID: <07A26691-830C-406B-AD7C-DFD22FE46EE7@neurotica.com> On Jan 21, 2009, at 11:28 AM, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > now I got some "models" a guy is offering me but I'm not sure about > their > interface: > > IBM 1615600 MOD 1 10SR-1 > IBM 62 PC > Magnetic Peripherals 47073251 > Seagate Sabre 368 (92651505) > Seagate ST43200K > > The Seagate Sabre seems to be SMD (I'm looking for SA1000 and a > friend of > mine is looking for SMD disks) > Anyone else knows the interface of the above listed disk drives? The ST43200K has an IPI-2 interface. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jan 21 12:27:12 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 13:27:12 -0500 Subject: SB11 In-Reply-To: <200901210906.11545.fsmith@ladylinux.com> References: <200901211119.n0LBJnR1026072@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200901210906.11545.fsmith@ladylinux.com> Message-ID: <2B5E9097-AA2A-4D03-BFF7-91FD34F8702B@neurotica.com> On Jan 21, 2009, at 9:06 AM, Francesca C. Smith wrote: >> Not really -- it's a tabletop CPU/system box sold for OEM use -- in >> other words a standalone unit you'd build a small system, such as a >> process controller, into. It has a 2 x 2 backplane, arranged >> serpentine >> style, so you could put up to four dual-height cards in it. It >> has one >> gotcha -- no line-time clock. >> >> http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/PDP-11/QBus_chassis >> >> I don't think your monitor unit was ever meant for rack mounting, >> either. Apart from having no obvious mounting points for rails, the >> power inlet and switch would be inside and facing the side of the >> rack >> if the CRT were facing out the front. I expect it's a tabletop >> unit, or >> was mounted inside something else. Which is not to say it might not >> have once sat on a shelf in a rack, of course. > > Ahh well no Line time clock is a gotcha. :-) Would have been a > little easier > to Divine its true use if the complement of cards were still in it. > > Well then what use would this be to a hobbyist other than the > obvious hollow > it out and stick a PC MB in it and create some Sim pdp11 thing ?? Grrrrr. That is a fairly rare box. An LTC signal can be generated trivially with a tiny board that can be buried inside the chassis. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Jan 21 12:30:17 2009 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 10:30:17 -0800 Subject: VS11 In-Reply-To: <49775EC6.2090909@softjar.se> References: <200901211712.n0LH9Wt5030780@dewey.classiccmp.org> <49775EC6.2090909@softjar.se> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90901211030y1a147dd0u5cc6de72e92ffe24@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 9:43 AM, Johnny Billquist wrote: > > That don't make sense. The VS11 was a Unibus device. The Qbus equivalent was > the VSV11, which was then replaced by the VSV21 (I have one of those). > > Ah, looking at the field guide, the M7061/7062/7064 *is* a VSV11. > I'll have to look at the manual again for the exact terminology. There might be places where it refers to this as something like "VS(V)-11". I'm pretty sure there are diagrams in the manual showing the M7061/7062/7064 boards installed in a separate Q-BUS backplane connected to a Unibus backplane. Ok, I just checked online. The EK-VSFHJ-IN-001 manual in not on bitsavers but the MP01102_VS11_Mar81.pdf manual is there and it contains both VS11 and VSV11 references. Maybe it is a "VS11" when installed with a Unibus to Q-BUS converter and a "VSV11" when installed in a native Q-BUS system. From dbetz at xlisper.com Wed Jan 21 13:00:00 2009 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 14:00:00 -0500 Subject: OMSI Basic for OS/8 Message-ID: <9F45B59D-1593-44E3-9E0C-0940833369E4@xlisper.com> Does anyone know where I can find a reference manual for OMSI Basic for OS/8? I've found executables for OMSI Basic 3.0 for OS/8 but can't find any documentation on the net. Thanks! David From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 21 12:59:24 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 18:59:24 +0000 (GMT) Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 65, Issue 45 In-Reply-To: <1232493931.29240.35.camel@elric> from "Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ" at Jan 20, 9 11:25:31 pm Message-ID: > > I guess I can search around for a CRT somewheres unless anyone has a > > idea. ?? > > Every so often this crops up... Is it a black-and-white CRT? Do you > know roughly what the scan rate is? If this is a standard VT100 video board (any of the 3 common ones), then it's a standard monochrome CRT. 12", 90 degree deflection, 12V heater, modified B7G base. Just aout any CRT with those specs can be got to work with very little difficulty. The can rates of a VT100 are the normal TV ones. I thought standard VT100s had a composite video output BNC connector on the back, but I might be thinking of some other terminal. > > Perhaps you could use a tube from a scrapped TV. They can't be *that* > different. You can. Or at least I did once. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 21 13:01:39 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 19:01:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <49767329.4010802@jbrain.com> from "Jim Brain" at Jan 20, 9 06:58:17 pm Message-ID: > Hmmm... part of me really wants to say: > > "Hey, Tony, You are not trained to repair " > > just to see what the explosion, but I shall not. Fortunately I understand the use/mention distinction :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 21 13:13:49 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 19:13:49 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Running 3 phase 780s on single phase power In-Reply-To: <1232540464.15972.9.camel@elric> from "Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ" at Jan 21, 9 12:21:04 pm Message-ID: > > Umm. No. That transformer is a ferro-resonant transformer. It > > *needs* 3-phase to work! It supplies the basic 12v DC that are then > > used to by the linear regulators. It's those that burn the power as > > heat. Replacing the linear regulators with switchers will reduce the > > consumed power by a lot. > > Since extremely high current switchers are relatively cheap (at least > compared to getting three-phase installed, and massive aircon systems), > is there any reason why you *wouldn't* go down this route? Particularly > for a machine that's going to be on a lot? Err, historical accuracy? The PSU is as much a part of the system design as the CPU (OK, maybe I exagerate, but not by very much). I know that if I owned a large adn rare machine (large VAX, PDP10, etc), I'd want to keep it as original as possile. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 21 13:16:50 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 19:16:50 +0000 (GMT) Subject: VT-100 BNC jacks In-Reply-To: <200901210915.19551.fsmith@ladylinux.com> from "Francesca C. Smith" at Jan 21, 9 09:15:19 am Message-ID: > The problem is the small size of the tube actually. Now the part that is broke > is the neck. I am thinking maybe I can find a smaller CRT from a scope or so Most, if not all, small 'scope CRTs are electostatically (rather than elecromagnicatlly) deflected. Tryign to get one of those to work in the terminal is going to be a _lot_ of work (I am not going to say 'impossible', but it's certainly mot plug-n-play). There were some small 5" portale TVs sold in the UK a couple of years back. Maybe a CRT from one of those could be shoehorned in. -tony From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Jan 21 13:42:35 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 19:42:35 +0000 Subject: Running 3 phase 780s on single phase power In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1232566955.15972.35.camel@elric> On Wed, 2009-01-21 at 19:13 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Umm. No. That transformer is a ferro-resonant transformer. It > > > *needs* 3-phase to work! It supplies the basic 12v DC that are then > > > used to by the linear regulators. It's those that burn the power as > > > heat. Replacing the linear regulators with switchers will reduce the > > > consumed power by a lot. > > > > Since extremely high current switchers are relatively cheap (at least > > compared to getting three-phase installed, and massive aircon systems), > > is there any reason why you *wouldn't* go down this route? Particularly > > for a machine that's going to be on a lot? > > Err, historical accuracy? The PSU is as much a part of the system design > as the CPU (OK, maybe I exagerate, but not by very much). I know that if > I owned a large adn rare machine (large VAX, PDP10, etc), I'd want to > keep it as original as possile. That's all very well, but if it costs you three times as much to run because of the huge inefficient power supply then it all starts to seem less practical. That's the sort of thing that makes the difference between a viable system that you can actually use and enjoy, and a bulky ornament. Gordon From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Jan 21 14:03:34 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 12:03:34 -0800 Subject: Running 3 phase 780s on single phase power In-Reply-To: <1232566955.15972.35.camel@elric> References: <1232566955.15972.35.camel@elric> Message-ID: > From: Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ > Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 11:43 AM > On Wed, 2009-01-21 at 19:13 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: >>>> Umm. No. That transformer is a ferro-resonant transformer. It >>>> *needs* 3-phase to work! It supplies the basic 12v DC that are >>>> then used to by the linear regulators. It's those that burn the >>>> power as heat. Replacing the linear regulators with switchers will >>>> reduce the consumed power by a lot. >>> Since extremely high current switchers are relatively cheap (at >>> least compared to getting three-phase installed, and massive aircon >>> systems), is there any reason why you *wouldn't* go down this route? >>> Particularly for a machine that's going to be on a lot? >> Err, historical accuracy? The PSU is as much a part of the system >> design as the CPU (OK, maybe I exagerate, but not by very much). I >> know that if I owned a large adn rare machine (large VAX, PDP10, >> etc), I'd want to keep it as original as possile. > That's all very well, but if it costs you three times as much to run > because of the huge inefficient power supply then it all starts to > seem less practical. That's the sort of thing that makes the > difference between a viable system that you can actually use and > enjoy, and a bulky ornament. For a living computer museum, certain tradeoffs *must* be made. Do you continue to spin 30 year old disk drives constantly, or do you build an emulator that looks to the CPU's I/O channels like the original disk? Do you upgrade power supplies with new aluminum electrolytic capacitors, or replace them altogether? If you replace them, do you do so in a way that is completely reversible, to maintain historicity? It is intended for the systems in this collection to run, but not to destroy their historical value in doing so. So we have alternate wiring harnesses in KL-10s, we have new caps in PDP-8s and PDP-11s, we have a Massbus disk emulator that talks to RH20s and RH11s and soon to RH780s, and we'll continue to develop ways to keep things running as we maintain their history. Rich Alderson Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Jan 21 14:12:17 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 12:12:17 -0800 Subject: Running 3 phase 780s on single phase power In-Reply-To: References: <200901191800.n0JI0DAh091509@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4974EE84.9070500@softjar.se> Message-ID: > From: Guy Sotomayor > Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 1:06 PM > On Jan 20, 2009, at 12:35 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: >> The KL-10, like other DEC gear, uses 3-phase input power as the >> simplest way to get lots of amps into the system: 60A @ 208 3-phase. >> All of this feeds into a single gigantic boat-anchor grade >> transformer which forms the basis of a linear power supply. 2/3 of >> that power goes back out as simple heat. > Umm. No. That transformer is a ferro-resonant transformer. It > *needs* 3-phase to work! It supplies the basic 12v DC that are then > used to by the linear regulators. It's those that burn the power as > heat. Replacing the linear regulators with switchers will reduce the > consumed power by a lot. And that's why I let the EEs deal with designing alternative power systems. I knew that there was a linear component to the entire system that wasted a lot of power, but thought that that started at the transformer. I'm a software/sysadmin with an occasional need to pick up a soldering iron--which I usually hand to one of the others. Thanks for straightening me out, Guy! Rich Alderson Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Jan 21 14:52:10 2009 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 20:52:10 -0000 Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <63B741A00AA54E9E903D9B85E5960DD9@uatempname> Tony Duell wrote: > It would apperar there are either loopholes in the standard, > or plenty of > cheap electrical devices (including wall-warts) that have invalid CE > marks on them, in that I've seem enough devices that I don't consider > safe. If there were enough accidents/injuries etc. then there would be some repurcussions for both the manufacturer that sold the wart-driven-device and also the wart maker. They are clearly cheap and horrible and built to a price but they must be "safe enough" otherwise they wouldn't be sold any more. Selling a device as CE branded when the branding wasn't properly acquired would clearly land the manufacturer in hot water. A defence of "well it was labelled, how was I to know they were dodgy" would not go down at all well in court. The alternative of a produce recall is pretty expensive. That said, I _do_ dislike the fact that they are often glued together rather than screwed together: I've certainly rescued devices in the past by swapping a cable from a dead wart onto a different but power-compatible one and that's considerably harder these days! I also dislike the fact that all the warts get mixed up and it takes me ages to find the one that goes with the $foo I want to work with. Antonio From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jan 21 15:34:24 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 21:34:24 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Running 3 phase 780s on single phase power In-Reply-To: <18807.22130.873500.327137@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> Message-ID: <419560.72289.qm@web23405.mail.ird.yahoo.com> You can say that again. A few years ago at work we had a vacuum motor which was plugged into a *normal* UK 3 pin 240v socket. When switching it on we often saw blue or green sparks from the socket and eventually got an electrician in to advise on various health & safety issues. Said vacuum pump is now connected to the mains via a special box (sorry don't know the name) that looks just like the start/stop box you get on tooling machinery (industrial drills, lathes etc.), with the green button for on and red for off. Sorry for going OT. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Wed, 21/1/09, Paul Koning wrote: From: Paul Koning Subject: Re: Running 3 phase 780s on single phase power To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Date: Wednesday, 21 January, 2009, 5:08 PM Motors are the original "high starting current" devices. That's why protection devices for motors are different from conventional circuit breakers. A "locked rotor" motor draws a LOT more current than a spinning one -- some vague memory says it might be 10x or so. And the initial surge as the motor is accelerating looks like the locked rotor case, briefly. How briefly depends on the machinery that the motor is driving; if it's a high load it could take some time before the motor is spun up to speed. paul From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 21 15:48:46 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 13:48:46 -0800 Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <63B741A00AA54E9E903D9B85E5960DD9@uatempname> References: , <63B741A00AA54E9E903D9B85E5960DD9@uatempname> Message-ID: <497727BE.11599.3E48826F@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Jan 2009 at 20:52, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > If there were enough accidents/injuries etc. then there would be some > repurcussions for both the manufacturer that sold the wart-driven-device > and also the wart maker. Sure, the same way that Christmas-tree light strings are "safe". Were it not for tradition, I cannot imagine that any underwriting or certifying agency would approve of line current-powered strings of low-voltage series-connected lamps on lightweight insulated #20 wire on a tree whose base sits in a stand full of water. No protective grounding, no GFCI. At least they have fuses in the plugs now. Older ones didn't. I suppose they're safer than candles... Since these light strings are sold in discount stores by fly-by-night seasonal importers, who are you going to sue? Cheers, Chuck From sethm at loomcom.com Wed Jan 21 15:55:35 2009 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 13:55:35 -0800 Subject: Russian PDP11 CPU chips on ebay... In-Reply-To: <20090121140627.2kl7kt29kwwosk0c@webmail.opentransfer.com> References: <1232540836.15972.10.camel@elric> <20090121140627.2kl7kt29kwwosk0c@webmail.opentransfer.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 5:06 AM, wrote: > Quoting Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ : > > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=12036621970 >> >> Two things I wonder about: How many has he got, and how hard would it >> be to make an SBC-6120-alike for the -11 with that? >> > > What's wrong with the original J11's ? I think they look even nicer than > the black ones Availability. I have no idea where to find J11s or T11s. But these Russian clones are on eBay almost constantly. -Seth From coredump at gifford.co.uk Wed Jan 21 16:00:15 2009 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 22:00:15 +0000 Subject: Running 3 phase 780s on single phase power In-Reply-To: <4FB6299E-3DA3-4A6B-88BA-3C7C81AA1088@shiresoft.com> References: <200901191800.n0JI0DAh091509@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4974EE84.9070500@softjar.se> <1232540464.15972.9.camel@elric> <18807.20476.484434.177276@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> <4FB6299E-3DA3-4A6B-88BA-3C7C81AA1088@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <49779AEF.4010404@gifford.co.uk> Guy Sotomayor wrote: > I just recall a friend who worked at KSC during Apollo where NASA had > something like a 2-4 ton flywheel to be power the critical launch > systems in the event of a power failure (to give time for the backup > generators to kick in). I saw one of these when my father took me to his workplace, Paxman Diesels in Colchester, in the 1970s. He explained that it was for an airport, to keep the landing lights on during a power failure. The flywheel was turned by an electric motor, and stored enough energy to keep the lights on just long enough to start the diesel engine. He called it a "no-break set", i.e. a generating set with no break in the supply. -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jan 21 16:19:45 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 17:19:45 -0500 Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <63B741A00AA54E9E903D9B85E5960DD9@uatempname> References: <63B741A00AA54E9E903D9B85E5960DD9@uatempname> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 3:52 PM, wrote: > That said, I _do_ dislike the fact that they are often glued together > rather than screwed together Hammer. >... I've certainly rescued devices in the past by swapping > a cable from a dead wart onto a different but power-compatible one and > that's considerably harder these days! If you can't get it open, you can still splice the old cable on the new wart. I'll be pedantic and recommend heat shrink over electrical tape - it doesn't turn to goo and melt off. Masking tape is *right out* (but I've seen lots of it covering splices). > I also dislike the fact that all the warts get mixed up and it takes me > ages to find the one that goes with the $foo I want to work with. I have a paint marker and routinely mark what device the wart goes with, and mark the device with a sharpie when the manufacturer hasn't bothered to mark the outside of the device with what power the wart supplies. -ethan From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Jan 21 16:39:03 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 17:39:03 -0500 Subject: Running 3 phase 780s on single phase power In-Reply-To: <49779AEF.4010404@gifford.co.uk> References: <200901191800.n0JI0DAh091509@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4974EE84.9070500@softjar.se> <1232540464.15972.9.camel@elric> <18807.20476.484434.177276@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> <4FB6299E-3DA3-4A6B-88BA-3C7C81AA1088@shiresoft.com> <49779AEF.4010404@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: <4977A407.6050900@gmail.com> John Honniball wrote: >> I just recall a friend who worked at KSC during Apollo where NASA had >> something like a 2-4 ton flywheel to be power the critical launch >> systems in the event of a power failure (to give time for the backup >> generators to kick in). > > I saw one of these when my father took me to his workplace, > Paxman Diesels in Colchester, in the 1970s. He explained that > it was for an airport, to keep the landing lights on during a > power failure. The flywheel was turned by an electric motor, > and stored enough energy to keep the lights on just long > enough to start the diesel engine. > > He called it a "no-break set", i.e. a generating set with > no break in the supply. A similar system is used in flywheel-mechanical-hybrid powertrains for motor vehicles. I participated in the design of one such system. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Jan 21 16:43:20 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 17:43:20 -0500 Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: References: <63B741A00AA54E9E903D9B85E5960DD9@uatempname> Message-ID: <4977A508.8040009@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: >> That said, I _do_ dislike the fact that they are often glued together >> rather than screwed together > > Hammer. I prefer using a Dremel with a cut-off wheel. >> I also dislike the fact that all the warts get mixed up and it takes me >> ages to find the one that goes with the $foo I want to work with. > > I have a paint marker and routinely mark what device the wart goes > with, and mark the device with a sharpie when the manufacturer hasn't > bothered to mark the outside of the device with what power the wart > supplies. I tend to shrinkwrap the wall-wart to the device before placing in storage. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 21 11:38:56 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 09:38:56 -0800 Subject: Running 3 phase 780s on single phase power In-Reply-To: <18807.20476.484434.177276@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> References: <200901191800.n0JI0DAh091509@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <18807.20476.484434.177276@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> Message-ID: <4976ED30.32046.3D63C790@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Jan 2009 at 11:40, Paul Koning wrote: > Note that you can generate 3 phase power from a 1 phase supply. There > are electronic devices to do this ("variable frequency converters", > devices intended to drive motors) up to 2 kW or so. Those can also > produce odd frequencies, so they might be a suitable substitute for a > CDC motor generator (for 400 Hz power). For higher power you can get > a "rotary phase converter" which is just a 3 phase motor with some > trick wiring. Those are more expensive though they are easy to build > from a suitable size surplus motor plus some capacitors. Those rotary phase converters are nothing more than a 3-phase motor with the line/mains connected across two terminals and a large capacitor connected between one side of the line and the third motor lead. They're made to run other *motors*; the output of these things is not a pure or balanced genuine 3-phase current and depend as much on the motor load as on the motor they use. The motors that run off this arrangement usually manage to run at about 70 percent of their nameplate rating. I would not recommend that one attempt to power computer gear from one of these setups. The electronic models are quite expensive, but give better results. You could also use a motor-alternator setup to generate your own 3- phase current, but I'd think that maintaining good frequency regulation under varying loads could be a problem. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 21 16:52:48 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 14:52:48 -0800 Subject: Running 3 phase 780s on single phase power In-Reply-To: <49779AEF.4010404@gifford.co.uk> References: <200901191800.n0JI0DAh091509@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <4FB6299E-3DA3-4A6B-88BA-3C7C81AA1088@shiresoft.com>, <49779AEF.4010404@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: <497736C0.11.3E831A5F@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Jan 2009 at 22:00, John Honniball wrote: > Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > I just recall a friend who worked at KSC during Apollo where NASA had > > something like a 2-4 ton flywheel to be power the critical launch > > systems in the event of a power failure (to give time for the backup > > generators to kick in). > > I saw one of these when my father took me to his workplace, > Paxman Diesels in Colchester, in the 1970s. He explained that > it was for an airport, to keep the landing lights on during a > power failure. The flywheel was turned by an electric motor, > and stored enough energy to keep the lights on just long > enough to start the diesel engine. I think that an extreme example that I can think of was the magnet power supply on the NIMROD synchrotron in the UK during the 1960s. Huge flywheel spun up from mains power and then suddently discharged into an alternator as the beam came 'round. I tried to google images of it, but came up empty. Cheers, Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jan 21 17:28:17 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 18:28:17 -0500 Subject: Running 3 phase 780s on single phase power In-Reply-To: <4976ED30.32046.3D63C790@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200901191800.n0JI0DAh091509@dewey.classiccmp.org> <18807.20476.484434.177276@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> <4976ED30.32046.3D63C790@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > They're made to run other *motors*; the output of these things is not > a pure or balanced genuine 3-phase current and depend as much on the > motor load as on the motor they use. The motors that run off this > arrangement usually manage to run at about 70 percent of their > nameplate rating. I would not recommend that one attempt to power > computer gear from one of these setups. For the record, the IBM 1401 CHM recently received ran off a rotary three phase converter for most of its life. -- Will From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Wed Jan 21 17:33:38 2009 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko at juno.com) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 23:33:38 GMT Subject: Russian PDP11 CPU chips on ebay... Message-ID: <20090121.153338.26905.1@webmail11.vgs.untd.com> -- Seth Morabito wrote: On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 5:06 AM, wrote: >> Quoting Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ : >> >> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=12036621970 >>> >>> Two things I wonder about: How many has he got, and how hard >>>would it >>> be to make an SBC-6120-alike for the -11 with that? >>> >> >> What's wrong with the original J11's ? I think they look even nicer >>than >> the black ones > > >Availability. I have no idea where to find J11s or T11s. But these >Russian >clones are on eBay almost constantly. *BUT* is that's what's really inside the plastic package? I would really like to talk to someone who bought one, and actually fired it up. Not all of the fake electronic stuff comes from China :^P ____________________________________________________________ Want to put your personal touch on your home? Click for home improvement ideas and tips. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw2eRIRomcdH8Pzf4yEI9rIXlf2jD1gLNzROV5JXaisM8fUgm/ From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Jan 21 17:58:28 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 18:58:28 -0500 Subject: Running 3 phase 780s on single phase power In-Reply-To: <4976ED30.32046.3D63C790@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200901191800.n0JI0DAh091509@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <18807.20476.484434.177276@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> <4976ED30.32046.3D63C790@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4977B6A4.9070404@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > You could also use a motor-alternator setup to generate your own 3- > phase current, but I'd think that maintaining good frequency > regulation under varying loads could be a problem. I've used a motor-generator set before. (I actually still have mine, but it's not set up right now.) It seems to be good enough, at least for a VAX 6000 or an IBM DASD unit. Peace... Sridhar From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Jan 21 18:00:39 2009 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 18:00:39 -0600 Subject: FS: Psion II LZ Organizer In-Reply-To: <51ea77730901201411pf3c64e2sffd7cb407d815953@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730901201411pf3c64e2sffd7cb407d815953@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730901211600jfaf4e81v237d804e2ca0cc6d@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 4:11 PM, Jason T wrote: > I believe this qualifies, more or less, as a computer, and is > definitely over 10 years old: > > http://www.bioeddie.co.uk/models/psion-ll-organiser-lz.htm > > I have the main unit, which I've tested and appears to work fine, a > number of ROM and RAM carts, and a bunch of books. > > Asking $50, including shipping in the Lower 48. International pays > for shipping (sorry.) No interest on the list here so far, so it goes to ePay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&item=270333653697 From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Wed Jan 21 18:17:48 2009 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 00:17:48 +0000 Subject: Keypunch drums (was Oxidation) In-Reply-To: <200901201324.n0KDORnD007685@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901201324.n0KDORnD007685@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <3AA01507-1514-4518-A291-DD418F0DFA7E@microspot.co.uk> > From: "Brian Knittel" > Subject: Re: Oxidation > >> Roger Holmes wrote: >> >> A couple of [keypunch drums] have come up on eBay in the last five >> years and both went for silly money which to me means there are >> more keypunches than drums. > > That's one interpretation, but it just considers the scarceness > factor. > You also have to figure in the saneness factor. If you want a punched > card era memorabilis, a drum is a heck of a lot easier to ship, store > and display than a whole keypunch machine. But why would someone find that particular part of a keypunch so desirable? I have many small parts of a verifier I broke up for spares for my keypunch. At silly prices someone could make a career buying keypunches and breaking them up for selling on eBay. From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Wed Jan 21 20:10:59 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 21:10:59 -0500 Subject: Running 3 phase 780s on single phase power In-Reply-To: <4976ED30.32046.3D63C790@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200901191800.n0JI0DAh091509@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <18807.20476.484434.177276@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> <4976ED30.32046.3D63C790@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Those rotary phase converters are nothing more than a 3-phase motor > with the line/mains connected across two terminals and a large > capacitor connected between one side of the line and the third motor > lead. That's the basic design, though there are better ones that are somewhat more involved. > They're made to run other *motors*; the output of these things is not > a pure or balanced genuine 3-phase current and depend as much on the > motor load as on the motor they use. The motors that run off this > arrangement usually manage to run at about 70 percent of their > nameplate rating. I would not recommend that one attempt to power > computer gear from one of these setups. Again, that depends on the design. I've read several long articles on the subject in various on-line and paper publications. At least one of them came with a lot of detailed testing including scope traces showing waveforms and balance. Both were excellent. I don't have the article at my fingertips; it probably was in Home Shop Machinist. The 70% number you quote seems low. Perhaps you are thinking of "static converters" which are not much more than a capacitor or two -- the machine's motor is connected as you describe above. Or maybe it's applicable to the most basic rotary converters, but not the more carefully tuned kind with multiple capacitors. In any case, the waveform for 3 phase power supplies isn't all that critical. Harmonic content is no big deal, the rectifiers cause a whole lot as they draw current only on the voltage peaks. The main concern would be that there are no high voltage spikes, but I don't see that being a risk with rotary converters. paul From fsmith at ladylinux.com Wed Jan 21 20:32:57 2009 From: fsmith at ladylinux.com (Francesca C. Smith) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 21:32:57 -0500 Subject: SB 11 In-Reply-To: <200901220214.n0M2EKXO038076@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901220214.n0M2EKXO038076@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200901212132.58091.fsmith@ladylinux.com> On Wednesday 21 January 2009 21:14:32 Dave McGuire wrote: > Grrrrr. That is a fairly rare box. > > An LTC signal can be generated trivially with a tiny board that > can be buried inside the chassis. > > -Dave :-) .. I was just musing is all. I WOULD never do anything to compromise the originality of the unit in question. -- Kindest Regards, No Problems Only Solutions Hosting Admins Baltimore, Maryland From fsmith at ladylinux.com Wed Jan 21 20:44:19 2009 From: fsmith at ladylinux.com (Francesca C. Smith) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 21:44:19 -0500 Subject: VT-100 BNC jacks In-Reply-To: <200901220214.n0M2EKXO038076@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901220214.n0M2EKXO038076@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200901212144.19878.fsmith@ladylinux.com> On Wednesday 21 January 2009 21:14:32 Tony Duell wrote: > There were some small 5" portale TVs sold in the UK a couple of years > back. Maybe a CRT from one of those could be shoehorned in. Ok, I am going to have to take this thing apart and get some part numbers and also look around and try and find a tube. I have been playing wack a mole with some a$$hats for a internet service provider and will be for a couple more days. I will post back here after I have some more concrete info. -- Kindest Regards, No Problems Only Solutions Hosting Admins Baltimore, Maryland From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 21 20:52:27 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 18:52:27 -0800 Subject: Running 3 phase 780s on single phase power In-Reply-To: References: <200901191800.n0JI0DAh091509@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <4976ED30.32046.3D63C790@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <49776EEB.22945.3F5E9B1F@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Jan 2009 at 21:10, Paul Koning wrote: > Again, that depends on the design. I've read several long articles on > the subject in various on-line and paper publications. At least one of > them came with a lot of detailed testing including scope traces showing > waveforms and balance. Both were excellent. I don't have the article > at my fingertips; it probably was in Home Shop Machinist. To be sure, there are involved designs, but the most common type (at least in home shops, seems to be a big motor and a capacitor). The 70% figure is mostly anecdotal; certainly by tuning the design and perhaps adding some sort of control that figure could be improved upon. 3 phase motors certainly deliver a lot in a compact size. I recall hooking a grinder that had been languishing in our shop because it was 440/3 up with a large motor run cap to the 230v single-phase line. It operated well enough until a wiseguy supervisor decided to do it right. He had the electrical shop run in a 440/3 distribution panel and hook the grinder up. The first guy to use it hit the switch and turned pale. The grinder was eventually replaced with a 240v single-phase unit because no one wanted to use the over-powered version to wire-brush thermocouple blocks. Cheers, Chuck From fsmith at ladylinux.com Wed Jan 21 22:15:21 2009 From: fsmith at ladylinux.com (Francesca C. Smith) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 23:15:21 -0500 Subject: SB 11 In-Reply-To: <200901211709.n0LH9Wsu030780@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901211709.n0LH9Wsu030780@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200901212315.21482.fsmith@ladylinux.com> On Wednesday 21 January 2009 12:09:50 Glen Slick wrote: > I have one of the same VT100 boxes in its original configuration, > which is without any CRT and with a full metal skin around it with a > handle on top making it somewhat like a giant lunchbox. Ohhh that sounds neat .. do you have any pictures of it that you could share ??? > The "keyboard interface box" video output feeds into the VS11 where > the terminal video output is then fed back out along with the VS11 > raster graphics output to the monitor. > > The VS11 is the M7061-YA / M7062 / M7064 Q-BUS board set. I have a VS11 here. Maybe a couple of them. This is interesting thank you. -- Kindest Regards, No Problems Only Solutions Hosting Admins Baltimore, Maryland From fsmith at ladylinux.com Wed Jan 21 22:18:07 2009 From: fsmith at ladylinux.com (Francesca C. Smith) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 23:18:07 -0500 Subject: SB11 In-Reply-To: <200901211709.n0LH9Wsu030780@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901211709.n0LH9Wsu030780@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200901212318.08987.fsmith@ladylinux.com> On Wednesday 21 January 2009 12:09:50 Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: > I'd build a little dinky PDP11 in it, with an added-on LTC as described > above so I could run TSX+. ?I kind of miss my PDP11, and I'd like to get > another (smaller) one. Yah I want to do this. But the power in this lil guy seems to not be up to snuff enough to power a decent setup. That is from reading some mailing list posts about it from a lil googling and help here. -- Kindest Regards, No Problems Only Solutions Hosting Admins Baltimore, Maryland From fsmith at ladylinux.com Wed Jan 21 22:20:06 2009 From: fsmith at ladylinux.com (Francesca C. Smith) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 23:20:06 -0500 Subject: VT-100 BNC jacks In-Reply-To: <200901211709.n0LH9Wsu030780@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901211709.n0LH9Wsu030780@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200901212320.06578.fsmith@ladylinux.com> On Wednesday 21 January 2009 12:09:50 Ian Primus wrote: > What's the size of the tube? The real VT100 had a 12" tube, but I don't > know about your VT100 clone. You should be able to rob a tube from another > terminal, or a portable B&W TV set and replace it. If it's a 9" tube, hunt > down an old security monitor. A scope tube isn't going to work - those use > drastically different deflection angles (and in some cases electrostatic > deflection). > > -Ian Its 4 inches diagonally. About the size of a Osbourne 1 display. -- Kindest Regards, No Problems Only Solutions Hosting Admins Baltimore, Maryland From IanK at vulcan.com Wed Jan 21 22:23:24 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 20:23:24 -0800 Subject: VT-100 BNC jacks In-Reply-To: <200901212320.06578.fsmith@ladylinux.com> References: <200901211709.n0LH9Wsu030780@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <200901212320.06578.fsmith@ladylinux.com> Message-ID: Sounds (and looks) like about the same size as the tube in my SX64, just for another point of reference. I've also seen TVs of that size. To agree with the other Ian :-) this is a magnetically deflected tube, while scopes were electrostatic before they went digital. (Did anyone ever do a lab scope with magnetic deflection? I'd think the latency of the magnetic material would preclude fast sweep speeds.) -- this Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Francesca C. Smith [fsmith at ladylinux.com] Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2009 8:20 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: VT-100 BNC jacks On Wednesday 21 January 2009 12:09:50 Ian Primus wrote: > What's the size of the tube? The real VT100 had a 12" tube, but I don't > know about your VT100 clone. You should be able to rob a tube from another > terminal, or a portable B&W TV set and replace it. If it's a 9" tube, hunt > down an old security monitor. A scope tube isn't going to work - those use > drastically different deflection angles (and in some cases electrostatic > deflection). > > -Ian Its 4 inches diagonally. About the size of a Osbourne 1 display. -- Kindest Regards, No Problems Only Solutions Hosting Admins Baltimore, Maryland From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jan 21 23:45:44 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 00:45:44 -0500 Subject: Wanted: DEC Computer Lab manuals Message-ID: Hi, All, I was one of the ones lucky enough to get one of the DEC Computer Labs on ePay last month. Mine finally showed up, and after a quick inspection, I'm ready to make some cables and hook up some circuits. Somewhere, I do have the teacher's manual. It was given to me nearly 30 years ago, a thoughtful gift from my step-dad's mother who was the local high school chem teacher. I haven't seen my copy in years, and I'm worried it was one of the things I lost in a basement flood in the 1980s. I did a google search and a look through bitsavers and didn't see anything to download, but I did see that this topic has come up on the list before. There was a call for scanning the docs some time back (6 years ago?) but no posting of where said scans might be. Also, there are Phillip's pictures of the cables on grid paper, so they look like pretty ordinary crimp pins, but I'm having to guess at the nominal diameter... 3mm? From the cover of the student manual, it looks like there are 25-ish of the shortest (brown) jumpers, and fewer of each longer length, but if anyone has a documented count of the number of each length of jumper wire, that'd be really nice to know. So are there scans of the student and teacher's manuals for the Computer Lab anywhere, and does anyone have a list (including in one of the manuals) of the normal inventory of jumper leads? Oh... one more thing... does anyone have any idea which bi-pin bulbs DEC used on this? I didn 't tear mine apart far enough tonight to get bulb details. Thanks, -ethan From innfoclassics at gmail.com Thu Jan 22 00:16:03 2009 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 22:16:03 -0800 Subject: FS: Psion II LZ Organizer In-Reply-To: <51ea77730901211600jfaf4e81v237d804e2ca0cc6d@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730901201411pf3c64e2sffd7cb407d815953@mail.gmail.com> <51ea77730901211600jfaf4e81v237d804e2ca0cc6d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: >> http://www.bioeddie.co.uk/models/psion-ll-organiser-lz.htm >> >> I have the main unit, which I've tested and appears to work fine, a >> number of ROM and RAM carts, and a bunch of books. >> >> Asking $50, including shipping in the Lower 48. International pays >> for shipping (sorry.) > > No interest on the list here so far, so it goes to ePay: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&item=270333653697 > Interesting, it lasted all of 8 hours. I have a couple of Psion II kits myself. I guess I won't use Buy it Now. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From innfoclassics at gmail.com Thu Jan 22 00:31:42 2009 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 22:31:42 -0800 Subject: FSOT Seequa Chameleon In-Reply-To: <497740F1.3050509@pacbell.net> References: <1232460538.14174.6.camel@host-72-250-236-64.ccvn.com> <49773104.4040103@gmail.com> <497740F1.3050509@pacbell.net> Message-ID: > > I've given things away for free on craigslist, had people claim interest, > then when it comes time to come get it, I hear: boy, you are far away; can > you drive 10-15 miles to make it easier for me? > Almost any computer equipment posted on your local Freecycle list goes away in hours. and they pick it up. At least I would. In fact I would drive a hundred miles to get a free Seequa Chameleon. Or two hundred miles if it was on my route. I have a regular route, Astoria to Eugene, I do twice a month and am on several Freecycle lists as a result. I used one 20 years ago. And may have still have an OS. However it would have to be free. I would not want to pay shipping. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From alec at sensi.org Thu Jan 22 00:57:52 2009 From: alec at sensi.org (Alexander Voropay) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 09:57:52 +0300 Subject: Russian PDP11 CPU chips on ebay... In-Reply-To: <1232541656.15972.11.camel@elric> References: <1232540836.15972.10.camel@elric> <1232541656.15972.11.camel@elric> Message-ID: <347d9b1b0901212257s5b92bd68paaed0e4b8fec0c73@mail.gmail.com> 2009/1/21 Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ : >> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=12036621970 There chips are not rare. In Russia you can buy it for about ~2$. Seems, they are rare on the e-bay only. :) The K1801VM1 was original Soviet design without direct Western analog. The command set was PDP-11 implementing 64 basic commands. The bus was Q-bus -like that simplified system design. If you can read Russian, visit: http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/1801BMx -- -=AV=- From ak6dn at mindspring.com Thu Jan 22 01:09:28 2009 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 23:09:28 -0800 Subject: Russian PDP11 CPU chips on ebay... In-Reply-To: <347d9b1b0901212257s5b92bd68paaed0e4b8fec0c73@mail.gmail.com> References: <1232540836.15972.10.camel@elric> <1232541656.15972.11.camel@elric> <347d9b1b0901212257s5b92bd68paaed0e4b8fec0c73@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49781BA8.7040003@mindspring.com> Alexander Voropay wrote: > 2009/1/21 Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ : > > >>> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayIAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=12036621970 >>> > There chips are not rare. In Russia you can buy it for about ~2$. > Seems, they are rare on the e-bay only. :) > > The K1801VM1 was original Soviet design without direct Western analog. > The command set was PDP-11 implementing 64 basic commands. > The bus was Q-bus -like that simplified system design. > > If you can read Russian, visit: > http://ru.wikipeia.org/wiki/1801BMx > So what about datasheets for these parts, are there any available in electronic form? I'm particularly interested in the KR1801VM2 variation. Don From technobug at comcast.net Thu Jan 22 01:33:54 2009 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 00:33:54 -0700 Subject: Wall warts In-Reply-To: <200901201324.n0KDORn2007685@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901201324.n0KDORn2007685@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <3A47D288-F0E8-42A7-81CA-C099E754BBBC@comcast.net> Message: 26 Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 22:01:00 +0000 (GMT) From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Subject: Re: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain Tony Duell wrote: > I feel these standard, or at least the 'CE mark' is part of the > problem, > and here's why.... > > It would apperar there are either loopholes in the standard, or > plenty of > cheap electrical devices (including wall-warts) that have invalid CE > marks on them, in that I've seem enough devices that I don't consider > safe. The problem is that if the wall-wart carries the CE mark, then > as > you said, the certification for the whole product becomes a lot > easier, > and if there are any problems later, a large part of the defence is > 'But > the wall wart met the appropriate CE standards'. Specifically, what do you consider unsafe about current wall-warts? I've found all the devices I've been in of late to be well designed and quite safe - cheap, yes. Perhaps you have been expecting accessible fuses. For some time the fuses have been located next to the core under the windings and act both as current and thermal protection devices. Most of the ones I've opened up have both the primary and secondary fused. I have yet to find one with the turns actually fused open. Granted, it's a bit more work to repair one, but well worth the time it takes to unwind the primary and secondary, replace the fuses, and rewind same. ;=) > But when manufacturers were entirely responsible for what their > devices > did, they made darn sure they were safe. Said manufacturers did not > want > to end up paying out large amounts of damages. SO th products really > _were_ safe. And in so many cases the manufacturer's concept of what was safe was not that of the court. Consequently, the certification standards. > I offer as an example the PSU brick for the Philips G7000 video game. > It's a bit like awall-wart, except it has a mains input cable that you > wire to a suitale plug. But inside that brick (which is nicely screwed > together), there are no fewer than 3 protective devices. A mains-side > fuse, a secondary fuse, and a thermal fuse (on the mains side). And the reason the warts are now sealed is that some bright person, having no idea of what he/she/it was doing, opened one and (chose one) 1. set it ablaze, 2. caused some sort of laceration on a sharp edge, or 3. left it open and plugged in and fried fido. We now have a mentality that disallows Darwinism and hence the large number of people developing standards to guide and protect the designer/ manufacturer. Again, what you might consider safe might not be what others consider safe. CRC From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Jan 21 07:04:53 2009 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 08:04:53 -0500 Subject: SC/MP 8073 addressing query Message-ID: <0KDT00MZBOBTBKN0@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: SC/MP 8073 addressing query > From: Doug Jackson > Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 09:26:13 +1100 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Hi list, > >I have an interesting question regarding the INS8073 (National >Semiconductor SC/MP 3 with BASIC in ROM). > >Finally, somebody gave me a round tuit, and I have started work on a >simple 8073 system. > >Eventually, it will have 8K of ROM, 8K of RAM, an 8255, and a switch / >LED interface. Currently on the board, I have the 6264 RAM tied to the >8073, with no address decoding (ie the CS* on the RAM is tied to A15 on >the CPU). Sadly, as a simple test, this does not operate as I would >expect. I would have expected that the RAM would have been selected >anywhere in the lower 32K or the memory map, and I would have a simple >system that would spit out a console prompt. But no luck. > >Now the question.... The internal ROM is located in the lowest 4K or >the memory map. When the CPU is fetching data from the lower 4K, does >it assert the NRDS line, and sample the external bus? My belief is that >it does not, as the trivial application note that I have seen simply >ties a couple of 2114 to the processor, and uses A10 as the chip select. > I built one years ago and pull it out frm time to time. No, it's less than 4K and yes you do get NRDS. Also you need pull up resistors on selected lines to set baus rate and boot on rom. I'd use 2116(2kb) or 2164s(8kB) as they are 8bits wide and really save on parts and power over 2114. One 2164 placed at at 1000h makes for a tiny sysem. Finally NIBLE when it starts does a memory check for (Ep)rom at 8000h. There are some addresses that are tested for information that have to be respected. If no one comes up with the circuit that National had for the demo board they sold I can scan my copy, it's pretty poor but may help. The manual is just too thick for me to scan or copy. Allison >Any ideas? > >Doug > > > >-- >Doug Jackson, I-RAP, MAIPM, MIEEE > >Principal Information Security Consultant >EWA-AUSTRALIA >PO Box 6308 O'Connor ACT 2602 >Level 1, 214 Northbourne Ave, Braddon ACT 2612 > >Tel: +61 (0)2 6230 6833 >Fax: +61 (0)2 6230 5833 >Mob: +61 (0)414 986 878 > >http://www.ewa-australia.com > > >============================================ > >IMPORTANT: This email remains the property of Electronic Warfare >Associates - Australia. If you have received this email in error, >you are requested to contact doug.jackson at ewa-australia.com or Ph >+61 2 62306833 and delete the email. This message is not to be >copied or distributed to other parties without the express permission >of the author. Any personal information in this email must be handled >in accordance with the Privacy Act 1988 (Cth). > >============================================ From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Jan 21 10:15:34 2009 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 11:15:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: FREE: misc small hardware (mostly SUN) In-Reply-To: <27B1047D-E0B2-445B-89B9-543AD83897C6@copenhagen.cuug.ab.ca> References: <27B1047D-E0B2-445B-89B9-543AD83897C6@copenhagen.cuug.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200901211625.LAA22269@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > From: Bob Bramwell > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > 1 x SUN 540-2007 serial/parallel controller breakout panel & cable > (i.e. a metal box with rubber feet and 8 serial + 1 parallel > female DB25 connectors on it + a big, beefy cable to connect it > to whatever used to do the Real Work) The "whatever" is the SUNW,spif. (I've got one, and I just looked to verify that the breakout box is 540-2007.) > 3 x mini-DIN - female DB25 SUN serial cables (I forget what model SUN > they fit) The IPX and I think one of the other lunchbox form-factor machines. The Classic doesn't use them; I can't easily check the IPC and LX at the moment. > ? x various SUN SCSI cables with the Really Old connectors (DB50?) > they used + a couple of terminators The three-row 50-pin size of D-shell is DD, so if you're talking about the one I think you are, DD50 is the proper term. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bqt at softjar.se Wed Jan 21 11:35:42 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 18:35:42 +0100 Subject: PRO-380 (was: Russian PDP11 CPU chips on ebay...) In-Reply-To: <200901211712.n0LH9Wt5030780@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901211712.n0LH9Wt5030780@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <49775CEE.5060808@softjar.se> Paul Koning wrote: >>>>>> >>>>> "emu" == emu writes: > > emu> Quoting Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ : > >> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=12036621970 > >> > >> Two things I wonder about: How many has he got, and how hard would > >> it be to make an SBC-6120-alike for the -11 with that? > > emu> What's wrong with the original J11's ? I think they look even > emu> nicer than the black ones ... > > emu> And then you could make something like a PRO-385 ;-) > > Wouldn't it be a PRO-380? Well, unless you can clock it at 20 MHz > which was the original plan for the 380, but the J-11 failed to > deliver so they ended up at 10. I think he might have meant PRO-385 as an improvement on the PRO-380...? :-) However, the J11 originally didn't deliver the planned 20 MHz, but it sure delivered more than 10 MHz. The reason the PRO-380 stayed at 10 MHz anyway was because the support chips DEC used for the PRO couldn't handle higher speeds. So even though the J11 could deliver atleast 15 MHz (which is what the 11/53 and 11/73 uses) and probably 18 MHz (which is what later 11/73 and the 11/8x use), the PRO (unfortunately) stopped at 10 MHz (which you can't blame on the J11). Even worse (I think) is that P/OS never supported split I/D space, nor supervisor mode, so the PRO makes very little use of the J11 cpu. (The 11/9x machines eventually used 20 MHz J11 cpus.) > Note that making a PRO-38x means you have to reverse engineer the I/O > control gate array and the video hardware, both of which are likely to > be serious exercises in masochism. (Why reverse engineer the most > bone-headed I/O design in the history of DEC?) Either that, or a lot > of discrete parts to make a PRO-350 clone. I couldn't agree more. :-) Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From bqt at softjar.se Wed Jan 21 11:43:34 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 18:43:34 +0100 Subject: VS11 In-Reply-To: <200901211712.n0LH9Wt5030780@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901211712.n0LH9Wt5030780@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <49775EC6.2090909@softjar.se> Glen Slick wrote: > In the VS11-FX/HX/JX Raster Graphics System Installation Manual > EK-VSFHJ-IN-001 there are illustrations of this box being used in > combination with a VRV02-AA/AB color monitor where the box is refered > to as the "keyboard interface box" and the combination of the monitor > and the "keyboard interface box" makes up the VRV02-FA/FB. > > The "keyboard interface box" video output feeds into the VS11 where > the terminal video output is then fed back out along with the VS11 > raster graphics output to the monitor. > > The VS11 is the M7061-YA / M7062 / M7064 Q-BUS board set. That don't make sense. The VS11 was a Unibus device. The Qbus equivalent was the VSV11, which was then replaced by the VSV21 (I have one of those). Ah, looking at the field guide, the M7061/7062/7064 *is* a VSV11. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From healyzh at spiritone.com Wed Jan 21 13:00:27 2009 From: healyzh at spiritone.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 11:00:27 -0800 Subject: OMSI Basic for OS/8 In-Reply-To: <9F45B59D-1593-44E3-9E0C-0940833369E4@xlisper.com> References: <9F45B59D-1593-44E3-9E0C-0940833369E4@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <20090121190027.GB20454@spiritone.com> On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 02:00:00PM -0500, David Betz wrote: > Does anyone know where I can find a reference manual for OMSI Basic > for OS/8? I've found executables for OMSI Basic 3.0 for OS/8 but can't > find any documentation on the net. > > Thanks! > David Have you tried contacting OMSI? I do not know if they've kept any of these old manuals, and I don't know how on earth such things worked back then (I'd really like to know where they had machines tucked away). OMSI == Oregon Museum of Science and Industry It wouldn't surprise me if everything went in a dumpster when they moved buildings. :-( Zane From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Jan 21 16:54:54 2009 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 17:54:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200901212305.SAA24815@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Tony has it right. The market demands low prices and doesn't demand >> ruggedness, so that is what gets built. > It's a great pity there aren't enough people out there who would pay > for a good design for such a product to be comemrically viable. I think there probably are - there are at least as many as there were back "30 or 40 years ago", and, while many things have changed, I doubt anything has changed that would make it significantly more costly to sell to that market now than then. What _has_ changed is that then, that market was pretty close to all there was for market for small computers. Now, it's a microscopic fraction of a vastly larger market, and there are few-to-no companies that can resist the lure of switching to the much bigger pond, on the theory that even if that means turning from a relatively large fish into a relatively small one, it still ends up being a bigger fish in absolute terms. Reinforcing that is the democratization of manufacturing. Today, it is far more feasible than it was 30-40 years ago for an end user to design a machine and have a one-off board made (and sometimes even populated and soldered); that's gotten cheap enough that, adding in the "doing it myself means I get exactly what I want" factor, it competes with companies trying to sell to that market. Not that I _like_ any of this. Well, possibly except the last, and that hasn't gone far enough yet for me to be really happy about it (there aren't very many choices yet for open tools for that stuff, and the ones I've found have..problems). /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From emu at e-bbes.com Thu Jan 22 02:20:20 2009 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emu at e-bbes.com) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 09:20:20 +0100 Subject: PRO-380 (was: Russian PDP11 CPU chips on ebay...) In-Reply-To: <49775CEE.5060808@softjar.se> References: <200901211712.n0LH9Wt5030780@dewey.classiccmp.org> <49775CEE.5060808@softjar.se> Message-ID: <20090122092020.0l24y8u4we0wo4ko@webmail.opentransfer.com> Quoting Johnny Billquist : > Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>>>>>>>>> "emu" == emu writes: >> >> emu> Quoting Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ : >> >> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=12036621970 >> >> >> Two things I wonder about: How many has he got, and how hard would >> >> it be to make an SBC-6120-alike for the -11 with that? >> >> emu> What's wrong with the original J11's ? I think they look even >> emu> nicer than the black ones ... >> >> emu> And then you could make something like a PRO-385 ;-) >> >> Wouldn't it be a PRO-380? Well, unless you can clock it at 20 MHz >> which was the original plan for the 380, but the J-11 failed to >> deliver so they ended up at 10. > > I think he might have meant PRO-385 as an improvement on the PRO-380...? :-) I guess, that's what you get if you try to write short emails ;-) Anyway, I was thinking of the PRO385 as something which has the full 4 MByte RAM, Graphics and harddrive. Not really running POS, but more RT11 and RSX ... Cheers From quapla at xs4all.nl Thu Jan 22 02:32:54 2009 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 09:32:54 +0100 (CET) Subject: Wanted: DEC Computer Lab manuals Message-ID: <18868.213.169.196.228.1232613174.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> I'm also interested in a scanned or Xerox copied version, as I also bought one of those Computer Lab's. It still has to arrive, overseas shipping takes sometimes longer than one hopes. > Hi, All, > > I was one of the ones lucky enough to get one of the DEC Computer Labs > on ePay last month. Mine finally showed up, and after a quick > inspection, I'm ready to make some cables and hook up some circuits. ---snip--- > So are there scans of the student and teacher's manuals for the > Computer Lab anywhere, and does anyone have a list (including in one > of the manuals) of the normal inventory of jumper leads? > > Oh... one more thing... does anyone have any idea which bi-pin bulbs > DEC used on this? I didn 't tear mine apart far enough tonight to get > bulb details. > > Thanks, > > -ethan > From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Thu Jan 22 03:29:01 2009 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 10:29:01 +0100 Subject: OMSI Basic for OS/8 In-Reply-To: <9F45B59D-1593-44E3-9E0C-0940833369E4@xlisper.com> References: <9F45B59D-1593-44E3-9E0C-0940833369E4@xlisper.com> Message-ID: > From: dbetz at xlisper.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 14:00:00 -0500 > Subject: OMSI Basic for OS/8 > > Does anyone know where I can find a reference manual for OMSI Basic > for OS/8? I've found executables for OMSI Basic 3.0 for OS/8 but can't > find any documentation on the net. > > Thanks! > David Sorry, I don't have such manuals. Are these executables available, or could you post the link(s) David? If there are legal issues, everybody can follow the link(s) you found, and download the executables ... thanks, - Henk, PA8PDP. From bob at jfcl.com Thu Jan 22 04:22:10 2009 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 02:22:10 -0800 Subject: Hitachi DK-815 SMD drives Message-ID: <006201c97c7b$491786b0$db469410$@com> Does anyone have any information on using the control panel and internal diagnostics on these drives? I have a couple that I'd like to be able to test out w/o hooking them up to a controller. The DK-815s were fairly common 8" SMD drives on Sun server systems of the Sun-3 vintage. Bitsavers and manx both appear to have nothing on them. Thanks, Bob From wmaddox at pacbell.net Thu Jan 22 04:40:21 2009 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 02:40:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Stuff available in Cupertino, CA -- Free for local pickup, or make offer Message-ID: <710153.89391.qm@web82608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I am cleaning house and have the following available to a good home. All are free if you can pick up locally in Cupertino, CA. Otherwise, if you make a decent offer I'll ship the smaller items. I'm looking to clear out some stuff quickly. * Northstar Horizon chassis and power supply, with backplane * Atari 520ST gear (2 system units, power supply, monitor) * Keyboards for TI99/A, Coleco Adam, Atari 1200XL * Sun/Sony GDM-20E220 Trinitron CRT monitor * Perkin-Elmer "Owl" terminal (fixer-upper or parts) While perhaps a bit off-topic, I also have the following available: * ePods internet appliances (slate-style with stylus, runs Windows CE) * I-Opener internet appliances (desktop with integral LCD, hack to run Windows or Linux) * Webpal internet appliances (ARM-based, VGA, hack to run Linux) * Barometric pressure transducer assembly, e.g., for digital weather station I have posted more detailed descriptions at www.harlie.org/stuff.html --Bill From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Thu Jan 22 05:05:26 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 03:05:26 -0800 Subject: Help identifying a big ol' drive platter Message-ID: <497852F6.2070701@mail.msu.edu> Hey all -- I don't usually buy things like this, I prefer to collect parts I can actually use on a regular basis, but I couldn't pass this up -- it's just too cool. It's an ancient hard disk platter, about 31" in diameter and maybe 1/8" thick. It's made by 3M and has a label sporting a serial number and inspection /waxing/etc dates from November of 1966. Any ideas what kind of drive this would have belonged to? Any ideas on capacity? I have a couple of photos at http://yahozna.dyndns.org/computers/platter. I'd love to know what this went to. It looks nice on my wall, right next to the IBM Microdrive... Thanks! Josh From wmaddox at pacbell.net Thu Jan 22 05:42:59 2009 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 03:42:59 -0800 (PST) Subject: Help identifying a big ol' drive platter In-Reply-To: <497852F6.2070701@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <308497.37438.qm@web82608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 1/22/09, Josh Dersch wrote: > It's an ancient hard disk platter, about 31" in > diameter and maybe 1/8" thick. It's made by 3M and > has a label sporting a serial number and inspection > /waxing/etc dates from November of 1966. Any ideas what > kind of drive this would have belonged to? Any ideas on > capacity? I've seen large platters like this on head-per-track disks made by Burroughs. There's one on the Illiac IV at CHM. I saw a similar drive at CMU that was allegedly the swapping disk for a DEC KA-10. I vaguely remember being told that the capacity was 512K words (36 bit on the KA-10). The drive was designed for speed, not capacity. --Bill From alec at sensi.org Thu Jan 22 06:29:41 2009 From: alec at sensi.org (Alexander Voropay) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 15:29:41 +0300 Subject: Russian PDP11 CPU chips on ebay... In-Reply-To: <49781BA8.7040003@mindspring.com> References: <1232540836.15972.10.camel@elric> <1232541656.15972.11.camel@elric> <347d9b1b0901212257s5b92bd68paaed0e4b8fec0c73@mail.gmail.com> <49781BA8.7040003@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <347d9b1b0901220429x625bc1abs5640c6ce167f5e0@mail.gmail.com> 2009/1/22 Don North : > So what about datasheets for these parts, are there any available in > electronic form? > I'm particularly interested in the KR1801VM2 variation. There was no "official" documentation for these chips, but there are a scans from the Russian "Microprocessor Tools and Systems" magazine: http://www.d-wanderer.pisem.net/doc1/k1801-844012-18.djvu (Russian language, DjVu format) Another information may be extracted from the schematic of the Russian DVK family of machines. DVK-2 was built around KR1801VM2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVK (see a Russian interwiki too) -- -=AV=- From dbetz at xlisper.com Thu Jan 22 08:45:29 2009 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 09:45:29 -0500 Subject: OMSI Basic for OS/8 In-Reply-To: References: <9F45B59D-1593-44E3-9E0C-0940833369E4@xlisper.com> Message-ID: >> Does anyone know where I can find a reference manual for OMSI Basic >> for OS/8? I've found executables for OMSI Basic 3.0 for OS/8 but >> can't >> find any documentation on the net. >> >> Thanks! >> David > > Sorry, I don't have such manuals. > Are these executables available, or could you post the link(s) David? > If there are legal issues, everybody can follow the link(s) you found, > and download the executables ... It's available here: http://www.pdp8online.com/pdp8cgi/os8_html?act=dir;fn=images/os8/omsi30%2Dbasic.tu56;sort=name From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Jan 22 09:29:57 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 09:29:57 -0600 Subject: FSOT Seequa Chameleon In-Reply-To: <497740F1.3050509@pacbell.net> References: <1232460538.14174.6.camel@host-72-250-236-64.ccvn.com> <49773104.4040103@gmail.com> <497740F1.3050509@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <497890F5.50801@gmail.com> Jim Battle wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: >> Steve Robertson wrote: >>> I'm not >>> going to give it away but am willing to take a "reasonable" offer. >>> Otherwise, it goes to the dump. >> >> Hmm - I'm struggling with the concept of "I want money for it or I'm >> going to throw it away for nothing". > > Steve can speak for himself, but my guess is the thinking is like this. > ... Yeah, I guess the vague threat of it being buried in landfill if someone with a conscience doesn't pay for it just disagreed with me; I'm perfectly happy with "I've got some old equipment and I want money in return". I suspect I was just grumpy yesterday, too :-) > (2) tossing it out takes no time, money, or supplies Yes, I should give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that they haven't heard of Freecycle :) > Another possible angle is: there are many people who will take things > for free who don't really need it since it is free. Someone willing to > pay for it is more likely to really need/appreciate it. That's an interesting one, and not one I'd thought of before! I've known more collectors who take free (or beer money) items and need/appreciate it than I have collectors who pay real money for things, but that's only my personal experience. > I've given things away for free on craigslist, had people claim > interest, then when it comes time to come get it, I hear: boy, you are > far away; can you drive 10-15 miles to make it easier for me? The ones that really annoy me are the collectors who do so purely for the purpose of taking free items and throwing them on ebay. Shame you can't email ebay a serial number and say "don't let this item ever appear on your website" ;-) cheers Jules From blstuart at bellsouth.net Thu Jan 22 09:45:13 2009 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 15:45:13 +0000 Subject: FREE: misc small hardware (mostly SUN) In-Reply-To: <200901211625.LAA22269@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <27B1047D-E0B2-445B-89B9-543AD83897C6@copenhagen.cuug.ab.ca> <200901211625.LAA22269@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <012220091545.102.49789489000A3E130000006622230650629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> > > 3 x mini-DIN - female DB25 SUN serial cables (I forget what model SUN > > they fit) > > The IPX and I think one of the other lunchbox form-factor machines. > The Classic doesn't use them; I can't easily check the IPC and LX at > the moment. My IPCs are all at home and I'm at work, but I'm almost certain that they used that same cable. BLS From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Thu Jan 22 09:48:41 2009 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 16:48:41 +0100 Subject: OMSI Basic for OS/8 In-Reply-To: References: <9F45B59D-1593-44E3-9E0C-0940833369E4@xlisper.com> Message-ID: > From: dbetz at xlisper.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 09:45:29 -0500 > Subject: Re: OMSI Basic for OS/8 > >>> Does anyone know where I can find a reference manual for OMSI Basic >>> for OS/8? I've found executables for OMSI Basic 3.0 for OS/8 but >>> can't >>> find any documentation on the net. >>> >>> Thanks! >>> David >> >> Sorry, I don't have such manuals. >> Are these executables available, or could you post the link(s) David? >> If there are legal issues, everybody can follow the link(s) you found, >> and download the executables ... > > It's available here: > > http://www.pdp8online.com/pdp8cgi/os8_html?act=dir;fn=images/os8/omsi30%2Dbasic.tu56;sort=name Thanks David! - Henk, PA8PDP From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jan 22 10:47:32 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 11:47:32 -0500 Subject: Wanted: DEC Computer Lab manuals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 12:45 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Hi, All, > > I was one of the ones lucky enough to get one of the DEC Computer Labs > on ePay last month. Mine finally showed up, and after a quick > inspection, I'm ready to make some cables and hook up some circuits. > > Somewhere, I do have the teacher's manual. It was given to me nearly > 30 years ago, a thoughtful gift from my step-dad's mother who was the > local high school chem teacher. I haven't seen my copy in years, and > I'm worried it was one of the things I lost in a basement flood in the > 1980s. I did a google search and a look through bitsavers and didn't > see anything to download, but I did see that this topic has come up on > the list before. There was a call for scanning the docs some time > back (6 years ago?) but no posting of where said scans might be. > Also, there are Phillip's pictures of the cables on grid paper, so > they look like pretty ordinary crimp pins, but I'm having to guess at > the nominal diameter... 3mm? From the cover of the student manual, it > looks like there are 25-ish of the shortest (brown) jumpers, and fewer > of each longer length, but if anyone has a documented count of the > number of each length of jumper wire, that'd be really nice to know. > > So are there scans of the student and teacher's manuals for the > Computer Lab anywhere, and does anyone have a list (including in one > of the manuals) of the normal inventory of jumper leads? > > Oh... one more thing... does anyone have any idea which bi-pin bulbs > DEC used on this? I didn 't tear mine apart far enough tonight to get > bulb details. > > Thanks, > > -ethan > Thanks to Dan Veenaman for this - . Now I know that at least one jumper kit is 107 jumpers of varying length (and may be able to deduce an approximation of spread from a scan of the manual cover). Also of interest is the GIF of the plugboard - that looks quite handy for documenting layouts. One other thing that could be of use with it is to document what gates go with what chip on the back. I didn't know this all the years I wanted one, but the components in the white area (as opposed to the ones behind the black plate with the switches and lights) are surface-mount. Not SO packages, but DIP TTL with the lower leads splayed out. I expect it's because they didn't want to mar the front of the lab with protruding pins. I will probably mount sockets on the board if my testing turns up any blown chips. Without completely dismantling the innards, I can't get a complete inventory, but there's at least a couple 7473s and 7420s, and I think the AND/NOR gates are in a 7450. It's all late-60s TTL from what I can see - contemporary with the PDP-8/i, down to the switch handles. I was thinking of a quick "colored-line overlay" of the blank plugboard with boxes and TTL numbers for those of us who think of TTL gates as parts of chip packages and not as individual gates - just as a roadmap of sorts. I don't know if it's true of all versions of the Computer Lab, but mine was made in Canada, and there's an internal board, additional to the linked ones for the plugboard and the switch board, that is wired between trace cuts on the switch board and mounted to the inside of the frame with Richardson-head screws. Without tracing the board, I can't tell exactly what it does, but it appears to be wedged in-between the 8 data switches and the 8 light bulbs - perhaps the original version of the switch board lit the lights when you flipped a switch and the version I have allows you to light lights regardless of switch positions? -ethan From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Jan 22 11:12:40 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 12:12:40 -0500 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <1232541816.15972.13.camel@elric> References: <200901192143.QAA29873@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <200901210637.19184.rtellason@verizon.net> <1232541816.15972.13.camel@elric> Message-ID: <200901221212.41416.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 21 January 2009 07:43:36 am Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: > On Wed, 2009-01-21 at 06:37 -0500, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > Of the two laptops here, I have one of each of those, this Sony having > > the two-pin variant and the Dell I was using before that having the > > three-pin variant. At one point I had the Dell with me but not the cord > > (and the battery on that one is unusable) and I had no difficulty in > > finding one to use. > > "Figure 8" leads will fit "cloverleaf" sockets anyway, at a pinch. > Since the PSU is double-insulated it makes no difference whether the > earth is connected. > > This has saved one IBM techie at least from embarrassment after turning > up with the adaptor but not the cloverleaf lead for his thinkpad at an > important talk... > > Gordon Well, yeah, but I didn't own this Sony at the time, unfortunately... :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Jan 22 11:15:19 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 12:15:19 -0500 Subject: SB-11 In-Reply-To: <200901210901.42970.fsmith@ladylinux.com> References: <200901211119.n0LBJnR1026072@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200901210901.42970.fsmith@ladylinux.com> Message-ID: <200901221215.19565.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 21 January 2009 09:01:42 am Francesca C. Smith wrote: > On Wednesday 21 January 2009 06:19:57 Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: > > Every so often this crops up... ?Is it a black-and-white CRT? ?Do you > > know roughly what the scan rate is? > > > > Perhaps you could use a tube from a scrapped TV. ?They can't be *that* > > different. > > Well the tube is about 4 inch in size. About the size of a old Osbourne. > Not sure what it is since its broke. I guess time to remove it and look > underneath for any markings. The Osborne (no "u") O-1 used what they called a 5 inch tube. I'm pretty sure those monitors used in those were made by Zenith. Or at least the 9 inch ones that were used in the Executive were, it's been long enough since I've even seen an O-1 that I'm not as certain any more. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 22 11:24:31 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 09:24:31 -0800 Subject: Help identifying a big ol' drive platter In-Reply-To: <308497.37438.qm@web82608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <497852F6.2070701@mail.msu.edu>, <308497.37438.qm@web82608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49783B4F.13996.427CF22E@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Jan 2009 at 3:42, William Maddox wrote: > --- On Thu, 1/22/09, Josh Dersch wrote: > > > It's an ancient hard disk platter, about 31" in > > diameter and maybe 1/8" thick. It's made by 3M and > > has a label sporting a serial number and inspection > > /waxing/etc dates from November of 1966. Any ideas what > > kind of drive this would have belonged to? Any ideas on > > capacity? > > I've seen large platters like this on head-per-track disks > made by Burroughs. There's one on the Illiac IV at CHM. > I saw a similar drive at CMU that was allegedly the swapping > disk for a DEC KA-10. I vaguely remember being told that > the capacity was 512K words (36 bit on the KA-10). The > drive was designed for speed, not capacity. Could also be from one of the vertically-mounted Bryant disks. I used to have one of those platters in my office; thought about making a coffee table of it, but the hole in the middle was a problem. IIRC, they didn't spin very fast--about 600 RPM. The heads were very heavy. There are photos and specs for Byrant units on the web. Cheers, Chuck From mikelee at tdh.com Thu Jan 22 11:37:12 2009 From: mikelee at tdh.com (Michael Lee) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 11:37:12 -0600 Subject: Apple Mac and CNN Message-ID: <4978AEC8.6080902@tdh.com> Looks like CNN is joining the bandwagon on vintage Macs, and asking for stories and content. http://www.ireport.com/ir-topic-stories.jspa?topicId=186195 From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Jan 22 11:43:35 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 11:43:35 -0600 Subject: Help identifying a big ol' drive platter In-Reply-To: <49783B4F.13996.427CF22E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <497852F6.2070701@mail.msu.edu>, <308497.37438.qm@web82608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49783B4F.13996.427CF22E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4978B047.1070104@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Could also be from one of the vertically-mounted Bryant disks. I > used to have one of those platters in my office; thought about making > a coffee table of it, but the hole in the middle was a problem. Hmm, suspend a flower pot underneath and plant flowers in it. > IIRC, they didn't spin very fast--about 600 RPM. A 600rpm coffee table would be fast enough, I think. There's a similar-sized platter at the computing history museum at Haverhill in the UK, but I just checked my photos and it's a different hub mount to the one that Josh has... From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Jan 22 11:54:42 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 12:54:42 -0500 Subject: Running 3 phase 780s on single phase power In-Reply-To: <18807.22130.873500.327137@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> References: <200901191800.n0JI0DAh091509@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4FB6299E-3DA3-4A6B-88BA-3C7C81AA1088@shiresoft.com> <18807.22130.873500.327137@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> Message-ID: <200901221254.42578.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 21 January 2009 12:08:02 pm Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Guy" == Guy Sotomayor writes: > >> > >> Note that you can generate 3 phase power from a 1 phase supply. > >> There are electronic devices to do this ("variable frequency > >> converters", devices intended to drive motors) up to 2 kW or so. > >> Those can also produce odd frequencies, so they might be a > >> suitable substitute for a CDC motor generator (for 400 Hz power). > >> For higher power you can get a "rotary phase converter" which is > >> just a 3 phase motor with some trick wiring. Those are more > >> expensive though they are easy to build from a suitable size > >> surplus motor plus some capacitors. > > Guy> One of the big problems in dealing with this is the in-rush > Guy> current which is *really* impressive. Go look at the KL10 > Guy> installation manual on the specs. It's a bit scary to have an > Guy> in-rush current that high (for up to 1-2 seconds). I don't know > Guy> if those converters are set up for those kinds of in-rush > Guy> current. My understanding was they were set up more for > Guy> inductive loads (ie motors) but never having dealt with them, > Guy> I'm working from ignorance. > > Motors are the original "high starting current" devices. That's why > protection devices for motors are different from conventional circuit > breakers. A "locked rotor" motor draws a LOT more current than a > spinning one -- some vague memory says it might be 10x or so. I suspect it's a lot higher than that. > And the initial surge as the motor is accelerating looks like the locked > rotor case, briefly. How briefly depends on the machinery that the motor is > driving; if it's a high load it could take some time before the motor > is spun up to speed. > > paul I remember one small window A/C unit we had, years ago, that was nominally rated at "7.5A" but the starting current on that thing was a whopping 40A! -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 22 12:11:31 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 10:11:31 -0800 Subject: Help identifying a big ol' drive platter In-Reply-To: <4978B047.1070104@gmail.com> References: <497852F6.2070701@mail.msu.edu>, <49783B4F.13996.427CF22E@cclist.sydex.com>, <4978B047.1070104@gmail.com> Message-ID: <49784653.20607.42A7ECAF@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Jan 2009 at 11:43, Jules Richardson wrote: > There's a similar-sized platter at the computing history museum at Haverhill > in the UK, but I just checked my photos and it's a different hub mount to the > one that Josh has... Is Josh's question a cross-list posting? I didn't get his original on cctalk. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Jan 22 12:39:58 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 13:39:58 -0500 Subject: VT-100 BNC jacks In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200901221340.00146.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 21 January 2009 02:16:50 pm Tony Duell wrote: > > The problem is the small size of the tube actually. Now the part that is > > broke is the neck. I am thinking maybe I can find a smaller CRT from a > > scope or so > > Most, if not all, small 'scope CRTs are electostatically (rather than > elecromagnicatlly) deflected. Tryign to get one of those to work in the > terminal is going to be a _lot_ of work (I am not going to say > 'impossible', but it's certainly mot plug-n-play). Yes, the differences in deflection angle would tend to make packaging um, "interesting" to say the least. > There were some small 5" portale TVs sold in the UK a couple of years > back. Maybe a CRT from one of those could be shoehorned in. I'm not entirely sure of the size, but there is one of those small TVs sittign in my scrap pile. It'd been left outdoors so the electronics are probably not worth salvaging much out of, but that shouldn't bother the tube any. If the OP wants to contact me offlist I'll see about digging into it one of these days... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Jan 22 12:41:19 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 13:41:19 -0500 Subject: Running 3 phase 780s on single phase power In-Reply-To: <1232566955.15972.35.camel@elric> References: <1232566955.15972.35.camel@elric> Message-ID: <200901221341.20041.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 21 January 2009 02:42:35 pm Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: > On Wed, 2009-01-21 at 19:13 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Umm. No. That transformer is a ferro-resonant transformer. It > > > > *needs* 3-phase to work! It supplies the basic 12v DC that are then > > > > used to by the linear regulators. It's those that burn the power as > > > > heat. Replacing the linear regulators with switchers will reduce the > > > > consumed power by a lot. > > > > > > Since extremely high current switchers are relatively cheap (at least > > > compared to getting three-phase installed, and massive aircon systems), > > > is there any reason why you *wouldn't* go down this route? > > > Particularly for a machine that's going to be on a lot? > > > > Err, historical accuracy? The PSU is as much a part of the system design > > as the CPU (OK, maybe I exagerate, but not by very much). I know that if > > I owned a large adn rare machine (large VAX, PDP10, etc), I'd want to > > keep it as original as possile. > > That's all very well, but if it costs you three times as much to run > because of the huge inefficient power supply then it all starts to seem > less practical. That's the sort of thing that makes the difference > between a viable system that you can actually use and enjoy, and a bulky > ornament. I guess that's the difference between wanting something so you can _have_ it vs. wanting something so you can _use_ it. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Jan 22 12:50:40 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 13:50:40 -0500 Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <4977A508.8040009@gmail.com> References: <4977A508.8040009@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200901221350.40787.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 21 January 2009 05:43:20 pm Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> That said, I _do_ dislike the fact that they are often glued together > >> rather than screwed together > > > > Hammer. > > I prefer using a Dremel with a cut-off wheel. Are you guys talking about opening dead ones to recover the load-end cable off them or opening ones that still work and that will be re-closed at some point? I've been thinking about trying MEK applied along the seam with swabs. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 22 13:08:09 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 11:08:09 -0800 Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <200901221350.40787.rtellason@verizon.net> References: , <4977A508.8040009@gmail.com>, <200901221350.40787.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <49785399.11205.42DBBDF1@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Jan 2009 at 13:50, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > I've been thinking about trying MEK applied along the seam with swabs. MEK works with some plastics and turns others to mush or has little effect at all. Methylene chloride seems to be a better choice, particularly for clear stock. Just repaired a pair of plastic- handled scissors using it and you can't tell it was ever broken. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jan 22 13:20:44 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 14:20:44 -0500 Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <49785399.11205.42DBBDF1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4977A508.8040009@gmail.com> <200901221350.40787.rtellason@verizon.net> <49785399.11205.42DBBDF1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 2:08 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 22 Jan 2009 at 13:50, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >> I've been thinking about trying MEK applied along the seam with swabs. > > MEK works with some plastics and turns others to mush or has little > effect at all. Methylene chloride seems to be a better choice, > particularly for clear stock. Just repaired a pair of plastic- > handled scissors using it and you can't tell it was ever broken. Yeah... I was just looking that up, since I wanted some plastic-weld but don't like paying several dollars per oz at the hobby store... I guess "proper" liquid polystyrene cement is Methylene Chloride, but MEK is easy to get at the hardware store by the pint or larger container. I have a few things I'd like to "weld" up... guess I'll have to find a source of Methylene Chloride somewhere. It seems to be the right stuff for many assembly and repair applications. I first used "plastic weld" at about age 11 and found it much nicer for an impatient kid than toluene-based "model cement"... besides finger prints and sagging bits from overapplication of the thicker cements, plastic weld was ready to go in seconds so I could spend more time aligning and assembling than waiting for complex assemblies to dry before moving on to the next step. I haven't used it to repair wall warts, but I've always thought it was the best stuff to use if I ever got as far as regluing. -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 22 12:50:09 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 18:50:09 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <497727BE.11599.3E48826F@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 21, 9 01:48:46 pm Message-ID: > Sure, the same way that Christmas-tree light strings are "safe". > Were it not for tradition, I cannot imagine that any underwriting or > certifying agency would approve of line current-powered strings of > low-voltage series-connected lamps on lightweight insulated #20 wire I beleive that Christmas lights are one of the few (if not the only) single-insulated non-earthed device that can be sold in the UK. Althoguh a lot of the better-grade light sets sold over here are either low-voltage bulbs or LEDs effectively in parallel running of a 12V or 24V wall-wart (for all I hate the latter ,they are safer than the older type of series-string lights) I also wonder how the light bulb sockets (both the BC (Baynoet Cap) ones used in the UK and the ES ones used elsewhere are approved. With the bulb removed (which can be done without the use of a tool), there are exposed livel parts. (Yes, I know the better makes of BC holder contain automatic switches to break the connections when the bulb is removed, but an awful lot of holders without said switches are around). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 22 13:01:36 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 19:01:36 +0000 (GMT) Subject: VT-100 BNC jacks In-Reply-To: <200901212144.19878.fsmith@ladylinux.com> from "Francesca C. Smith" at Jan 21, 9 09:44:19 pm Message-ID: > > On Wednesday 21 January 2009 21:14:32 Tony Duell wrote: > > There were some small 5" portale TVs sold in the UK a couple of years > > back. Maybe a CRT from one of those could be shoehorned in. > Ok, > > I am going to have to take this thing apart and get some part numbers My experience with replacing 9" and 12" monochrome CRTs is that the part number is not that helpful. Well, obviously if you can get the same part again it'll work, but so will an awful lot of other types. The things that have to match up are : Screen size, but only so you can fit it in the case :-). You can use a slightly larger or slightly smaller CRT with no prolems Deflection angle. Most 9" and 12" mono monitors/terminals use a 90 degree deflection angle CRT. I don;t know what yours is Neck diameter. There are 2 sizes, you have to get the right one for many reasons. First the yoke must fit -- deflection yokes are a lot less generic than CRTs, so you keep the original yoke. Seocnd, the neck diameter goes with the ase type. The large neck CRTs have a B8H base (a bit like international octal, but with thinner pins and a larger locating key). The small neck CRTs have a modified B7G base (like a 7 pin miniature valve, but with the pinch-off tube in the middle of the circle of pins). And thordly, CRTs with large neck/B8H base tend ot hav 6.3V heaters, those wit the thin neck/B7G base have 12V heaters. Again, yopu need to get this right for ovious reasons. The pinouts for a given base tpye seem to be standardised, and the elctrode voltagea for CRTs of similar size are likely to be 'near enough' that you'll get something recognisable on the screen. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 22 13:07:45 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 19:07:45 +0000 (GMT) Subject: VT-100 BNC jacks In-Reply-To: from "Ian King" at Jan 21, 9 08:23:24 pm Message-ID: > while scopes were electrostatic before they went digital. (Did anyone > ever do a lab scope with magnetic deflection? I'd think the latency of > the magnetic material would preclude fast sweep speeds.) I wouldn't necessarily call it a 'lab scope' but I think I once saw an large-screen (about 17" diagonal) 'scope used for lecture demonstrations that was magnetically deflected. I think the bandwidth was pretty much limited to audio frequencies. I can't rememebr the manufactuter, maybe Airmec? Waht limits the bandwidth of electromagnetic deflection is often the fact that you have to change the current through the defleciton coils quickly, and this leads to large back EMFs that you driving amplifier has to be able to cope with (suppressing them e.g. with clamp diodes or zeners does you no good at all, it just slows down the response time and thus kills the bandwidth). Of course there have been magneticlaly-deflected XY displays used on vector grahpics systems (the DEC VR14 being an obvious example), but the defleciton rates were not that high. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 22 12:41:57 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 18:41:57 +0000 (GMT) Subject: VS11 In-Reply-To: <49775EC6.2090909@softjar.se> from "Johnny Billquist" at Jan 21, 9 06:43:34 pm Message-ID: > > The VS11 is the M7061-YA / M7062 / M7064 Q-BUS board set. > > That don't make sense. The VS11 was a Unibus device. The Qbus equivalent > was the VSV11, which was then replaced by the VSV21 (I have one of those). >From waht I remember, the VS11 was a VSV11 (Qbus) with a DW11-B (Unibus-Qbus interface). -tony From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Jan 22 13:41:29 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 14:41:29 -0500 Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <200901221350.40787.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <4977A508.8040009@gmail.com> <200901221350.40787.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4978CBE9.4090802@gmail.com> Roy J. Tellason wrote: >>>> That said, I _do_ dislike the fact that they are often glued together >>>> rather than screwed together >>> Hammer. >> I prefer using a Dremel with a cut-off wheel. > > Are you guys talking about opening dead ones to recover the load-end cable off > them or opening ones that still work and that will be re-closed at some > point? The latter. > I've been thinking about trying MEK applied along the seam with swabs. I can verify that it works. You just have to make sure to close the seam up quickly after applying the MEK *sparingly*, and that the seam is clamped firmly while the plastic rehardens. Peace... Sridhar From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Jan 22 13:42:53 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 13:42:53 -0600 Subject: Help identifying a big ol' drive platter In-Reply-To: <49784653.20607.42A7ECAF@cclist.sydex.com> References: <497852F6.2070701@mail.msu.edu>, <49783B4F.13996.427CF22E@cclist.sydex.com>, <4978B047.1070104@gmail.com> <49784653.20607.42A7ECAF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4978CC3D.5010403@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Is Josh's question a cross-list posting? I didn't get his original > on cctalk. Nope, looks like it was sent to cctalk. It had a dyndns.org URL in it though (Josh uploaded a couple of photos), so maybe some spam-trap along the way to you disagreed with the URL and flagged the message as junk? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jan 22 14:03:36 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 15:03:36 -0500 Subject: DW11-B (was Re: VS11) Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 1:41 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> > The VS11 is the M7061-YA / M7062 / M7064 Q-BUS board set. >> >> That don't make sense. The VS11 was a Unibus device. The Qbus equivalent >> was the VSV11, which was then replaced by the VSV21 (I have one of those). > > >From waht I remember, the VS11 was a VSV11 (Qbus) with a DW11-B > (Unibus-Qbus interface). I have a DW11 w/DDV11-CK for an "IB11" (IBV11 for Unibus). It came with an 11/34 from a University setting (thus the DD11V-CK backplane). I've thought about using that with a Qbus SCSI card, but haven't tried it yet. AFAIK, there's nothing funny about mapping since it's an 18-bit Qbus card presented to an 18-bit Unibus, so there shouldn't be driver issues. -ethan From legalize at xmission.com Thu Jan 22 14:16:14 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 13:16:14 -0700 Subject: ebay: 3 apollo workstation cards Message-ID: ebay item # 260350673746 Someone may be interested in this... not sure what workstation they are for. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 22 14:23:55 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 20:23:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: DW11-B (was Re: VS11) In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Jan 22, 9 03:03:36 pm Message-ID: > I have a DW11 w/DDV11-CK for an "IB11" (IBV11 for Unibus). It came Was the genuine IB11 a normal Unibus card? I've never seen one, I have several IBV11 cards in MINC machines. I pulled the processor and RAM out of one of the MINCs and hung it off a Unibus machine using (not suprisingly) a DW11-B. I can confirm it works fine. I once worked on something called a 'Gamma 11', which was a medical imaging control system. It consisted, IRIC, of a PDP11/34 CPU with a VS60 board set in the CPU cabinet. That was linked by a Unibus cable to a 5.25" expansion box containing 2 4-slot backplanes. One was the normal Unibus, and contains an RL11 and the Unibus half of a DW11-B. The other was Qbus, it cotnained the other half of th DW11-B and some special interface cards to the imaging camera, etc. Alas I never got to investigate the 'interesting bits. I just had to fix a simple fault on the RL11. > with an 11/34 from a University setting (thus the DD11V-CK backplane). > I've thought about using that with a Qbus SCSI card, but haven't > tried it yet. I see no reason why it wouldn't work. Certainly the DW11-B supports NPR transfers -- I've run Unibus 11's with RL drives hung off an RLV11 (with a DW11-B linkling them). -tony From nierveze at radio-astronomie.com Thu Jan 22 02:39:55 2009 From: nierveze at radio-astronomie.com (nierveze) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 09:39:55 +0100 Subject: Russian PDP11 CPU chips on ebay... References: <1232540836.15972.10.camel@elric> <1232541656.15972.11.camel@elric><347d9b1b0901212257s5b92bd68paaed0e4b8fec0c73@mail.gmail.com> <49781BA8.7040003@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <009d01c97c6d$0372bb60$04000005@pc> hello as I already mentionned ,thanks to the job of our friends in Russia , lots of information is on the group of google for bk0010 http://groups.google.com/group/bk0010/ including complete schematics of the bk0010 that uses k1801bm1, in djvu format (use djvu solo to read) this company make processors http://www.angstrem.ru/index.htm in particular the 1806bm2 that is pdp11/2 compatible and also a pdp11/23 compatible this company makes peripherals http://www.angstrem.ru/index.htm in particular the 1582bj3-123 that is quite close from dlart (dl11 compatible uart+rtc) datasheets are on their site .also on their site are schematics of application for complete system .You can use babelfish to translate,it works well.I do not speak of word of russian but when there is a will to communicate it becomes easier. those chips can be bought at: http://www.rtkt.ru/ that has a page in english from the price they say new chips (processors and dl11 compatible uart) cost about 40usd each. Hope this will help to make things simpler.best regards alain nierveze ----- Message d'origine ----- De : "Don North" ? : "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Envoy? : jeudi 22 janvier 2009 08:09 Objet : Re: Russian PDP11 CPU chips on ebay... > Alexander Voropay wrote: > > 2009/1/21 Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ : > > > > > >>> http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayIAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=12036621970 > >>> > > There chips are not rare. In Russia you can buy it for about ~2$. > > Seems, they are rare on the e-bay only. :) > > > > The K1801VM1 was original Soviet design without direct Western analog. > > The command set was PDP-11 implementing 64 basic commands. > > The bus was Q-bus -like that simplified system design. > > > > If you can read Russian, visit: > > http://ru.wikipeia.org/wiki/1801BMx > > > > So what about datasheets for these parts, are there any available in > electronic form? > I'm particularly interested in the KR1801VM2 variation. > > Don > From nierveze at radio-astronomie.com Thu Jan 22 02:51:12 2009 From: nierveze at radio-astronomie.com (nierveze) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 09:51:12 +0100 Subject: Russian PDP11 CPU chips on ebay... References: <1232540836.15972.10.camel@elric> <1232541656.15972.11.camel@elric> <347d9b1b0901212257s5b92bd68paaed0e4b8fec0c73@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00c701c97c6e$9639ffc0$04000005@pc> sorry the company that makes peripherals is not angstrem but http://www.npofizika.ru/ I can add that I have a few data sheets in russian , I can email them to people who wish.even if someone does not understand russian ,it is easy to understand schematics and timing diagrams. regards a.nierveze From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Jan 22 03:29:43 2009 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 04:29:43 -0500 (EST) Subject: HP IIISi: "50 SERVICE" In-Reply-To: References: <889053.98289.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <804239.42485.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200901220935.EAA03427@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Back in June (2008), I wrote about my HP IIISi laser printer complaining "50 SERVICE". Everyone agreed it was some sort of fuser-related problem: heating element failed, driving circuit blown, temperature sensor shot, something of that ilk. Today I finally collected the round tuits to check it out - and yes, the fuser "lamp" has failed open-circuit. Fortunately, a month or two back I spoke with an printer repair tech who came to service a printer at work; he gave me contact info for the place he gets replacements for such things, so I'm set in that respect. Just thought I'd report on the status. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From steerex at ccvn.com Thu Jan 22 05:42:04 2009 From: steerex at ccvn.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 06:42:04 -0500 Subject: FSOT Seequa Chameleon In-Reply-To: References: <1232460538.14174.6.camel@host-72-250-236-64.ccvn.com> <49773104.4040103@gmail.com> <497740F1.3050509@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <1232624524.25244.26.camel@host-72-250-236-64.ccvn.com> On Wed, 2009-01-21 at 22:31 -0800, Paxton Hoag wrote: > > > > I've given things away for free on craigslist, had people claim interest, > > then when it comes time to come get it, I hear: boy, you are far away; can > > you drive 10-15 miles to make it easier for me? > > > > Almost any computer equipment posted on your local Freecycle list goes > away in hours. and they pick it up. At least I would. > > In fact I would drive a hundred miles to get a free Seequa Chameleon. > Or two hundred miles if it was on my route. > > I have a regular route, Astoria to Eugene, I do twice a month and am > on several Freecycle lists as a result. > > I used one 20 years ago. And may have still have an OS. > > However it would have to be free. I would not want to pay shipping. > > Paxton As I said in my original post, I ain't giving it away. It's 25 miles each way to the nearest shipping office from my home and I am not going to go to the time, trouble, and expense of shipping this thing to someone that's too cheap to pay a fair price. I've had several people from this list ask me to "give" the machine to them because they happen to have some special attachment. Sorry folks but, unless I get a "reasonable" offer, it's going in the dumpster. I'm also tired of the old argument about preserving technology or the historical significance of a particular machine. BS... That argument always comes from the same group of people who expect to get things for free. Frankly, at this point, I don't know what a reasonable offer is. But I can assure you my time and effort is worth more than a few pennies. I expect to offer some more things on this list in the near future and just want to let everyone know in advance - I AM NOT GIVING ANYTHING AWAY. If you aren't willing to pay for it, don't respond. SteveRob From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Jan 22 15:31:58 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 16:31:58 -0500 Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <4978CBE9.4090802@gmail.com> References: <200901221350.40787.rtellason@verizon.net> <4978CBE9.4090802@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200901221631.58400.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 22 January 2009 02:41:29 pm Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >>>> That said, I _do_ dislike the fact that they are often glued together > >>>> rather than screwed together > >>> > >>> Hammer. > >> > >> I prefer using a Dremel with a cut-off wheel. > > > > Are you guys talking about opening dead ones to recover the load-end > > cable off them or opening ones that still work and that will be re-closed > > at some point? > > The latter. > > > I've been thinking about trying MEK applied along the seam with swabs. > > I can verify that it works. You just have to make sure to close the > seam up quickly after applying the MEK *sparingly*, and that the seam is > clamped firmly while the plastic rehardens. > > Peace... Sridhar Actually I was thinking about using it to *open* these (and similarly sealed stuff) without resorting to things like hammers, dremel, etc. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Jan 22 15:34:15 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 21:34:15 +0000 Subject: FSOT Seequa Chameleon In-Reply-To: <1232624524.25244.26.camel@host-72-250-236-64.ccvn.com> References: <1232460538.14174.6.camel@host-72-250-236-64.ccvn.com> <49773104.4040103@gmail.com> <497740F1.3050509@pacbell.net> <1232624524.25244.26.camel@host-72-250-236-64.ccvn.com> Message-ID: <1232660055.6506.39.camel@elric> On Thu, 2009-01-22 at 06:42 -0500, Steve Robertson wrote: > As I said in my original post, I ain't giving it away. It's 25 miles > each way to the nearest shipping office from my home and I am not going > to go to the time, trouble, and expense of shipping this thing to > someone that's too cheap to pay a fair price. > > I've had several people from this list ask me to "give" the machine to > them because they happen to have some special attachment. Sorry folks > but, unless I get a "reasonable" offer, it's going in the dumpster. At least one person has made the very reasonable offer of actually turning up at your place, loading it in their own vehicle themselves, and taking it away. How reasonable do you want? If you want to sell it, for cash, then say so, but don't be a prick about it. Gordon From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 22 15:41:40 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 13:41:40 -0800 Subject: Help identifying a big ol' drive platter In-Reply-To: <4978CC3D.5010403@gmail.com> References: <497852F6.2070701@mail.msu.edu>, <49784653.20607.42A7ECAF@cclist.sydex.com>, <4978CC3D.5010403@gmail.com> Message-ID: <49787794.4669.4368518D@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Jan 2009 at 13:42, Jules Richardson wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Is Josh's question a cross-list posting? I didn't get his original > > on cctalk. > > Nope, looks like it was sent to cctalk. It had a dyndns.org URL in it though > (Josh uploaded a couple of photos), so maybe some spam-trap along the way to > you disagreed with the URL and flagged the message as junk? Checked my spam logs and there's no trace of it. Ah, the wonders of the internets... Can someone off-list email me the image URLs? Thanks! Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Jan 22 15:45:43 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 16:45:43 -0500 Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <200901221631.58400.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200901221350.40787.rtellason@verizon.net> <4978CBE9.4090802@gmail.com> <200901221631.58400.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4978E907.2090007@gmail.com> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Thursday 22 January 2009 02:41:29 pm Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> Roy J. Tellason wrote: >>>>>> That said, I _do_ dislike the fact that they are often glued together >>>>>> rather than screwed together >>>>> Hammer. >>>> I prefer using a Dremel with a cut-off wheel. >>> Are you guys talking about opening dead ones to recover the load-end >>> cable off them or opening ones that still work and that will be re-closed >>> at some point? >> The latter. >> >>> I've been thinking about trying MEK applied along the seam with swabs. >> I can verify that it works. You just have to make sure to close the >> seam up quickly after applying the MEK *sparingly*, and that the seam is >> clamped firmly while the plastic rehardens. > > Actually I was thinking about using it to *open* these (and similarly sealed > stuff) without resorting to things like hammers, dremel, etc. That sounds like it would be a mess. Peace... Sridhar From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Jan 22 16:07:16 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 16:07:16 -0600 Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <4978E907.2090007@gmail.com> References: <200901221350.40787.rtellason@verizon.net> <4978CBE9.4090802@gmail.com> <200901221631.58400.rtellason@verizon.net> <4978E907.2090007@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4978EE14.4090503@gmail.com> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> Actually I was thinking about using it to *open* these (and similarly >> sealed stuff) without resorting to things like hammers, dremel, etc. > > That sounds like it would be a mess. Although perhaps a fitting end. The natural approach could be taken, I suppose - fill with water and put outside to freeze... :-) From fryers at gmail.com Thu Jan 22 16:13:48 2009 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 22:13:48 +0000 Subject: ebay: 3 apollo workstation cards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2009/1/22 Richard : > ebay item # 260350673746 > > Someone may be interested in this... not sure what workstation they > are for. They will suit the DN3000, DN4000 and DN5000 series of machines. There is one Winchester disk controller (EDSI and FDD), one Apollo Token Ring card and one frame buffer (colour I do believe by visual inspection). Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Jan 22 16:16:24 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 22:16:24 +0000 Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <4978EE14.4090503@gmail.com> References: <200901221350.40787.rtellason@verizon.net> <4978CBE9.4090802@gmail.com> <200901221631.58400.rtellason@verizon.net> <4978E907.2090007@gmail.com> <4978EE14.4090503@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1232662584.6506.85.camel@elric> On Thu, 2009-01-22 at 16:07 -0600, Jules Richardson wrote: > Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> Actually I was thinking about using it to *open* these (and similarly > >> sealed stuff) without resorting to things like hammers, dremel, etc. > > > > That sounds like it would be a mess. > > Although perhaps a fitting end. The natural approach could be taken, I suppose > - fill with water and put outside to freeze... :-) Hydraulic press. A CD-ROM yields up its secrets... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glRMdVc_6cQ Gordon From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Jan 22 16:31:44 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 17:31:44 -0500 Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <4978E907.2090007@gmail.com> References: <200901221631.58400.rtellason@verizon.net> <4978E907.2090007@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200901221731.45453.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 22 January 2009 04:45:43 pm Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > On Thursday 22 January 2009 02:41:29 pm Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >>>>>> That said, I _do_ dislike the fact that they are often glued > >>>>>> together rather than screwed together > >>>>> > >>>>> Hammer. > >>>> > >>>> I prefer using a Dremel with a cut-off wheel. > >>> > >>> Are you guys talking about opening dead ones to recover the load-end > >>> cable off them or opening ones that still work and that will be > >>> re-closed at some point? > >> > >> The latter. > >> > >>> I've been thinking about trying MEK applied along the seam with swabs. > >> > >> I can verify that it works. You just have to make sure to close the > >> seam up quickly after applying the MEK *sparingly*, and that the seam is > >> clamped firmly while the plastic rehardens. > > > > Actually I was thinking about using it to *open* these (and similarly > > sealed stuff) without resorting to things like hammers, dremel, etc. > > That sounds like it would be a mess. Maybe I'll try the stuff out on some scrap plastic first, then. I've heard about it being handy, but haven't used it yet. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Thu Jan 22 16:39:40 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 17:39:40 -0500 Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp References: <200901221631.58400.rtellason@verizon.net> <4978E907.2090007@gmail.com> <200901221731.45453.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <18808.62892.412338.434876@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Roy" == Roy J Tellason writes: Roy> Maybe I'll try the stuff out on some scrap plastic first, then. Roy> I've heard about it being handy, but haven't used it yet. You'd have to make sure it's the right kind of plastic. There is a whole lot of variation as to what solvents (if any) will dissolve "plastic". PE and PTFE don't dissolve at all, while many other plastics have their particular "good solvent". I remember furan for vinyl (as in "waterbed patch kits"), something completely different for polystyrene, and probably something different yet again for plexiglas. Then there are fun details like this one: ethanol is a nice harmless cleaning fluid for many things, including most plastics. But it will turn plexiglas matte. paul From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Jan 22 17:00:38 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 23:00:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <18808.62892.412338.434876@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <474841.51817.qm@web23404.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Polystyrene dissolves easily with acetone. Someone showed me that around 10 years ago, when we had a quiet day in the lab. Some new staff occasionally use acetone to try to clean marks off of balance doors (the sidebits) and often dissolve the plastic runner so that the doors no longer smoothly slide open/closed, instead they stick :( Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk PS. Anyone here in the UK see the Royal Institution Lectures on Channel 5 over Christmas? If you did can you please point me (offlist please) in the direction of a good guide on how quantum CPU's work. I understood all the other stuff, but the quantum stuff confused me :( --- On Thu, 22/1/09, Paul Koning wrote: From: Paul Koning Subject: Re: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Date: Thursday, 22 January, 2009, 10:39 PM >>>>> "Roy" == Roy J Tellason writes: Roy> Maybe I'll try the stuff out on some scrap plastic first, then. Roy> I've heard about it being handy, but haven't used it yet. You'd have to make sure it's the right kind of plastic. There is a whole lot of variation as to what solvents (if any) will dissolve "plastic". PE and PTFE don't dissolve at all, while many other plastics have their particular "good solvent". I remember furan for vinyl (as in "waterbed patch kits"), something completely different for polystyrene, and probably something different yet again for plexiglas. Then there are fun details like this one: ethanol is a nice harmless cleaning fluid for many things, including most plastics. But it will turn plexiglas matte. paul From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Jan 22 16:56:29 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 22:56:29 +0000 Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: References: <4977A508.8040009@gmail.com> <200901221350.40787.rtellason@verizon.net> <49785399.11205.42DBBDF1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4978F99D.3040502@dunnington.plus.com> On 22/01/2009 19:20, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 2:08 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 22 Jan 2009 at 13:50, Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> MEK works with some plastics and turns others to mush or has little >> effect at all. Methylene chloride seems to be a better choice, >> particularly for clear stock. Just repaired a pair of plastic- >> handled scissors using it and you can't tell it was ever broken. > > Yeah... I was just looking that up, since I wanted some plastic-weld > but don't like paying several dollars per oz at the hobby store... I > guess "proper" liquid polystyrene cement is Methylene Chloride, but > MEK is easy to get at the hardware store by the pint or larger > container. MEK is used industrially for ABS and PVC, but not much else (it's used in the printing industry as an ink remover and rubber restorer, however). It's great on those, and much cheaper than methylene chloride, but methylene chloride works on one or two plastics where MEK doesn't. "clear stock" won't be ABS or PVC as neither can be transparent; if MEK dissolves it (messily) it's probably polystyrene, which methylene chloride works moderately well on. If you want to weld acrylic (Perspex/Lexan/Plexiglass), though, professionals use chloroform. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Jan 22 17:02:52 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 15:02:52 -0800 Subject: Running 3 phase 780s on single phase power In-Reply-To: <200901221341.20041.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <1232566955.15972.35.camel@elric> <200901221341.20041.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: >-----Original Message----- >From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- >bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Roy J. Tellason >Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2009 10:41 AM >To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >Subject: Re: Running 3 phase 780s on single phase power > >On Wednesday 21 January 2009 02:42:35 pm Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: >> On Wed, 2009-01-21 at 19:13 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: >> > > > Umm. No. That transformer is a ferro-resonant transformer. It >> > > > *needs* 3-phase to work! It supplies the basic 12v DC that are >then >> > > > used to by the linear regulators. It's those that burn the >power as >> > > > heat. Replacing the linear regulators with switchers will >reduce the >> > > > consumed power by a lot. >> > > >> > > Since extremely high current switchers are relatively cheap (at >least >> > > compared to getting three-phase installed, and massive aircon >systems), >> > > is there any reason why you *wouldn't* go down this route? >> > > Particularly for a machine that's going to be on a lot? >> > >> > Err, historical accuracy? The PSU is as much a part of the system >design >> > as the CPU (OK, maybe I exagerate, but not by very much). I know >that if >> > I owned a large adn rare machine (large VAX, PDP10, etc), I'd want >to >> > keep it as original as possile. >> >> That's all very well, but if it costs you three times as much to run >> because of the huge inefficient power supply then it all starts to >seem >> less practical. That's the sort of thing that makes the difference >> between a viable system that you can actually use and enjoy, and a >bulky >> ornament. > >I guess that's the difference between wanting something so you can >_have_ it >vs. wanting something so you can _use_ it. > Or, it's the difference between pragmatism and historical preservation. We try to preserve the system as closely to its history as possible, while recognizing that sometimes compromises are necessary. Sometimes, those compromises even reflect history: for instance, the replacement of linear supplies with switching supplies in PDP-10s, which seems to have become common practice as the model line matured. Our goal is always to have a system someone can _use_, as we work to develop a 'best practice' that addresses that while maintaining the historical integrity of the original machine. -- Ian From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 22 15:39:00 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 13:39:00 -0800 Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: References: , <49785399.11205.42DBBDF1@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <497876F4.30168.4365E09D@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Jan 2009 at 14:20, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Yeah... I was just looking that up, since I wanted some plastic-weld > but don't like paying several dollars per oz at the hobby store... I > guess "proper" liquid polystyrene cement is Methylene Chloride, but > MEK is easy to get at the hardware store by the pint or larger > container. Just the opposite here--MEK can't be found nearby in town, due to the city toxics reporting laws (too much trouble to stock it, so merchants don't). I have to drive to the next town to find it. > I have a few things I'd like to "weld" up... guess I'll have to find a > source of Methylene Chloride somewhere. It seems to be the right > stuff for many assembly and repair applications. Hobby shops carry the stuff under various names: Plastiweld is one, Bondene is another. Oddly, the next largest size that's easy to obtain seems to be a 55 gallon drum... It's great for styren or ABS. It's also in many paint strippers. Cheers, Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Jan 22 17:09:24 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 18:09:24 -0500 Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <474841.51817.qm@web23404.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <474841.51817.qm@web23404.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4978FCA4.4070604@gmail.com> Andrew Burton wrote: > Polystyrene dissolves easily with acetone. Someone showed me that > around 10 years ago, when we had a quiet day in the lab. Some new > staff occasionally use acetone to try to clean marks off of balance > doors (the sidebits) and often dissolve the plastic runner so that > the doors no longer smoothly slide open/closed, instead they stick :( A girl in my lab session proved conclusively that acetone is effective at dissolving polyester. Peace... Sridhar From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Jan 22 17:13:16 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 23:13:16 +0000 Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4978FD8C.4090503@dunnington.plus.com> On 22/01/2009 18:50, Tony Duell wrote: > I beleive that Christmas lights are one of the few (if not the only) > single-insulated non-earthed device that can be sold in the UK. [ ... ] > I also wonder how the light bulb sockets (both the BC (Baynoet Cap) ones > used in the UK and the ES ones used elsewhere are approved. With the bulb > removed (which can be done without the use of a tool), there are exposed > livel parts. The IET Wiring Regulations merely require that you can't touch a live part with a finger (and there's a standard to define how fat a finger is) and without the use of a tool. It doesn't mean you can't remove the bulb without a tool, it means you can't then touch the live part without a tool. In the case of Christmas lights the metal is somewhat recessed, and you can't get a finger in, so it's allowed. I assume here that we're talking about the ones that use miniature E5 (5mm ES) bulbs. Of course even in this case, you can touch the live part with a screwdriver, the tines of a table fork, a paperclip, etc -- but those are defined as tools :-) Amusingly, these lights are classed as if double-insulated, even though all the ones I've seen are not -- the rather bizarre justification for that definition seems to be simply that they have no earth wire! Can shops still sell such strings of lights? I've not seen any for ages, only the spare bulbs, and ELV sets. The last time I saw any IET publication about them was dated 2004 and I'm not sure if they are still sold. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Jan 22 17:15:13 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 23:15:13 +0000 Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <18808.62892.412338.434876@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200901221631.58400.rtellason@verizon.net> <4978E907.2090007@gmail.com> <200901221731.45453.rtellason@verizon.net> <18808.62892.412338.434876@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <4978FE01.4030008@dunnington.plus.com> On 22/01/2009 22:39, Paul Koning wrote: > Then there are fun details like this one: ethanol is a nice harmless > cleaning fluid for many things, including most plastics. But it will > turn plexiglas matte. And never use IPA to clean the focus screen in your SLR camera. I had to have a Pentax dismantled and the screen replaced after that one. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Jan 22 17:23:19 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 18:23:19 -0500 Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <4978FE01.4030008@dunnington.plus.com> References: <200901221631.58400.rtellason@verizon.net> <4978E907.2090007@gmail.com> <200901221731.45453.rtellason@verizon.net> <18808.62892.412338.434876@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4978FE01.4030008@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4978FFE7.9020702@gmail.com> Pete Turnbull wrote: >> Then there are fun details like this one: ethanol is a nice harmless >> cleaning fluid for many things, including most plastics. But it will >> turn plexiglas matte. > > And never use IPA to clean the focus screen in your SLR camera. I had > to have a Pentax dismantled and the screen replaced after that one. I would go further. I would say, never use anything stronger than water to clean any flat-panel display. Peace... Sridhar From robo58 at optonline.net Thu Jan 22 17:30:54 2009 From: robo58 at optonline.net (ROBO5.8) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 18:30:54 -0500 Subject: CP/M 2.2 Sector Translation Question In-Reply-To: References: <002c01c95629$ce98d460$6bca7d20$@net> from Message-ID: <00a901c97ce9$78c80b50$6a5821f0$@net> Hi, I'd like to know if CP/M 2.2 is "Zero" biased when it comes to Sector Translation. Since v2.2 supports Blocking/Deblocking I would assume it has to be. I've looked at lots of code examples via Google and searched the documentation but I cannot find a statement to that effect. Asking it another way: The Sector Translation routine is passed the requested sector number in Registers B&C. Does CP/M request Sector 0 or 1 when it wants the first sector on any track. Thanks Robo From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Jan 22 17:33:23 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 23:33:23 +0000 Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <4978FD8C.4090503@dunnington.plus.com> References: <4978FD8C.4090503@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <1232667203.8269.1.camel@elric> On Thu, 2009-01-22 at 23:13 +0000, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 22/01/2009 18:50, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I beleive that Christmas lights are one of the few (if not the only) > > single-insulated non-earthed device that can be sold in the UK. > [ ... ] > > I also wonder how the light bulb sockets (both the BC (Baynoet Cap) ones > > used in the UK and the ES ones used elsewhere are approved. With the bulb > > removed (which can be done without the use of a tool), there are exposed > > livel parts. > > The IET Wiring Regulations merely require that you can't touch a live > part with a finger (and there's a standard to define how fat a finger > is) and without the use of a tool. It doesn't mean you can't remove the > bulb without a tool, it means you can't then touch the live part without > a tool. In the case of Christmas lights the metal is somewhat recessed, > and you can't get a finger in, so it's allowed. Normal bayonet cap bulbs like in ordinary household light fittings have exposed live parts that can be touched with a finger. The bulb base is about an inch across! You'd have to have hellish fat fingers to not fit them into the socket. Look I'll show y{d{tt{gb{34$?{22 NO CARRIER From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jan 22 17:35:32 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 18:35:32 -0500 Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <497876F4.30168.4365E09D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <49785399.11205.42DBBDF1@cclist.sydex.com> <497876F4.30168.4365E09D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 4:39 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 22 Jan 2009 at 14:20, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> I guess "proper" liquid polystyrene cement is Methylene Chloride, but >> MEK is easy to get at the hardware store by the pint or larger >> container. > > Just the opposite here--MEK can't be found nearby in town, due to the > city toxics reporting laws (too much trouble to stock it, so > merchants don't). I have to drive to the next town to find it. Hmm... no problem here - the closest DIY shop has it in the paint section for $7 per large container (1L? 2L? 4L?) but doesn't have Methylene Chloride in with the other solvents. >> I have a few things I'd like to "weld" up... guess I'll have to find a >> source of Methylene Chloride somewhere... > > Hobby shops carry the stuff under various names: Plastiweld is one, > Bondene is another. Right. I'm trying to find it from a source that doesn't dole it out in 1oz containers for a few bucks. I don't mind paying a few bucks per liter, but not per ounce > Oddly, the next largest size that's easy to > obtain seems to be a 55 gallon drum... That would be, um, a bit much for hobby use. > It's great for styren or ABS. It's also in many paint strippers. Yes... I am planning on working with styrene and ABS, so it sounds perfect. It's good to know that acetone is good with acrylic. That'd be the other one I'd probably work with. -ethan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jan 22 17:46:57 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 16:46:57 -0700 Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <1232667203.8269.1.camel@elric> References: <4978FD8C.4090503@dunnington.plus.com> <1232667203.8269.1.camel@elric> Message-ID: <49790571.8010306@jetnet.ab.ca> Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: > Look I'll show y{d{tt{gb{34$?{22 > > NO CARRIER > Rest in peace! From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Jan 22 17:38:22 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 23:38:22 +0000 Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <4978FFE7.9020702@gmail.com> References: <200901221631.58400.rtellason@verizon.net> <4978E907.2090007@gmail.com> <200901221731.45453.rtellason@verizon.net> <18808.62892.412338.434876@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <4978FE01.4030008@dunnington.plus.com> <4978FFE7.9020702@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4979036E.6060107@dunnington.plus.com> On 22/01/2009 23:23, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Pete Turnbull wrote: >>> Then there are fun details like this one: ethanol is a nice harmless >>> cleaning fluid for many things, including most plastics. But it will >>> turn plexiglas matte. >> >> And never use IPA to clean the focus screen in your SLR camera. I had >> to have a Pentax dismantled and the screen replaced after that one. > > I would go further. I would say, never use anything stronger than water > to clean any flat-panel display. Glass ones are OK. But the focussing screen in an SLR (even a DSLR, which is not what I was talking about) is not a flat-panel display :-) It's an optical device, not an electronic one -- it's all done with mirrors (and pentaprisms) :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From dmabry at mich.com Thu Jan 22 17:52:38 2009 From: dmabry at mich.com (Dave Mabry) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 18:52:38 -0500 Subject: CP/M 2.2 Sector Translation Question In-Reply-To: <00a901c97ce9$78c80b50$6a5821f0$@net> References: <002c01c95629$ce98d460$6bca7d20$@net> from <00a901c97ce9$78c80b50$6a5821f0$@net> Message-ID: <497906C6.2020207@mich.com> Off the top of my head (I know, dangerous and unreliable), the sector skewing on my Intel MDS was done in the formatting routine. There was a skew offset of something like 3, I think. The BIOS/BDOS didn't do any translation. It was basically done by writing logical sector numbers onto the disks that were not the same as physical sectors. Remember that the Intel MDS CP/M was the way it was released from DRI. Any other OEM could implement theirs differently. Dave ROBO5.8 said the following on 1/22/2009 6:30 PM: > Hi, > > I'd like to know if CP/M 2.2 is "Zero" biased when it comes to Sector > Translation. Since v2.2 supports Blocking/Deblocking I would assume it has > to be. I've looked at lots of code examples via Google and searched the > documentation but I cannot find a statement to that effect. > > Asking it another way: The Sector Translation routine is passed the > requested sector number in Registers B&C. Does CP/M request Sector 0 or 1 > when it wants the first sector on any track. > > Thanks Robo > > > > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 22 17:56:01 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 15:56:01 -0800 Subject: CP/M 2.2 Sector Translation Question In-Reply-To: <00a901c97ce9$78c80b50$6a5821f0$@net> References: <002c01c95629$ce98d460$6bca7d20$@net>, , <00a901c97ce9$78c80b50$6a5821f0$@net> Message-ID: <49789711.14331.43E35149@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Jan 2009 at 18:30, ROBO5.8 wrote: > I'd like to know if CP/M 2.2 is "Zero" biased when it comes to Sector > Translation. Since v2.2 supports Blocking/Deblocking I would assume it has > to be. I've looked at lots of code examples via Google and searched the > documentation but I cannot find a statement to that effect. > > Asking it another way: The Sector Translation routine is passed the > requested sector number in Registers B&C. Does CP/M request Sector 0 or 1 > when it wants the first sector on any track. Yes, it's zero-based. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 22 18:01:47 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 16:01:47 -0800 Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <4978FD8C.4090503@dunnington.plus.com> References: , <4978FD8C.4090503@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4978986B.27130.43E89658@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Jan 2009 at 23:13, Pete Turnbull wrote: > The IET Wiring Regulations merely require that you can't touch a live > part with a finger (and there's a standard to define how fat a finger > is) and without the use of a tool. It doesn't mean you can't remove the > bulb without a tool, it means you can't then touch the live part without > a tool. In the case of Christmas lights the metal is somewhat recessed, > and you can't get a finger in, so it's allowed. I assume here that > we're talking about the ones that use miniature E5 (5mm ES) bulbs. Of > course even in this case, you can touch the live part with a > screwdriver, the tines of a table fork, a paperclip, etc -- but those > are defined as tools :-) Amusingly, these lights are classed as if > double-insulated, even though all the ones I've seen are not -- the > rather bizarre justification for that definition seems to be simply that > they have no earth wire! ...or the puppy can chew on it, or baby can see what the pretty bulb tastes like... I've never understood why Christmas tree lamps (particularly the miniature ones) aren't mandated as line-isolated low-voltage devices. They're still the most prevalent type in the USA. Cheers, Chuck From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Jan 22 18:18:41 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 00:18:41 +0000 Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: References: <49785399.11205.42DBBDF1@cclist.sydex.com> <497876F4.30168.4365E09D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <49790CE1.2070203@dunnington.plus.com> On 22/01/2009 23:35, Ethan Dicks wrote: > It's good to know that acetone is good with acrylic. That'd > be the other one I'd probably work with. Actually, it's not, particularly. It attacks acrylic, but isn't very good for welding it. Chloroform is far superior, but do remember the ventilation required! -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jan 22 18:34:15 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 19:34:15 -0500 Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <4978986B.27130.43E89658@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4978FD8C.4090503@dunnington.plus.com> <4978986B.27130.43E89658@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > I've never understood why Christmas tree lamps (particularly the > miniature ones) aren't mandated as line-isolated low-voltage devices. Probably because they never cause problems. -- Will From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Thu Jan 22 19:05:23 2009 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko at juno.com) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 01:05:23 GMT Subject: Stuff available in Cupertino, CA -- Free for local pickup, or make offer Message-ID: <20090122.170523.5394.2@webmail10.vgs.untd.com> Hey Bill-- I live in Merced, and would like to come to SIlicon Valley to pick up the Sony Monitor. How soon do you need me to come get this (assuming it hasn't been claimed already)? Also, I could find no specifications for this monitor. Can it do Sync on Green? Jeff -- William Maddox wrote: I am cleaning house and have the following available to a good home. All are free if you can pick up locally in Cupertino, CA. Otherwise, if you make a decent offer I'll ship the smaller items. I'm looking to clear out some stuff quickly. * Northstar Horizon chassis and power supply, with backplane * Atari 520ST gear (2 system units, power supply, monitor) * Keyboards for TI99/A, Coleco Adam, Atari 1200XL * Sun/Sony GDM-20E220 Trinitron CRT monitor * Perkin-Elmer "Owl" terminal (fixer-upper or parts) While perhaps a bit off-topic, I also have the following available: * ePods internet appliances (slate-style with stylus, runs Windows CE) * I-Opener internet appliances (desktop with integral LCD, hack to run Windows or Linux) * Webpal internet appliances (ARM-based, VGA, hack to run Linux) * Barometric pressure transducer assembly, e.g., for digital weather station I have posted more detailed descriptions at www.harlie.org/stuff.html --Bill ____________________________________________________________ Click for great deals on extra fine men's wedding bands. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw2wI1xAeJNxyfdWDTZFpi8kjXqi1Xkow0DLlw5rQuZFMSaeC/ From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 22 19:53:09 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 17:53:09 -0800 Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: References: , <4978986B.27130.43E89658@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4978B285.25596.444EB605@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Jan 2009 at 19:34, William Donzelli wrote: > > I've never understood why Christmas tree lamps (particularly the > > miniature ones) aren't mandated as line-isolated low-voltage devices. > > Probably because they never cause problems. Never? I suppose it's what you mean by "never": http://www.hobbycast.net/msds/Patternrelease202.pdf "In 2002-2005, U.S. fire departments responded to an estimated average of 210 home structure fires that began with Christmas trees. These fires caused an average of 24 civilian deaths, 27 civilian injuries, and $13.3 million in direct property damage per year. " "Electrical failures or malfunctions were involved in 48% of the home Christmas tree fires...Decorative lights with line voltage were involved in 22% of these incidents" --Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jan 22 19:59:27 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 20:59:27 -0500 Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <4978B285.25596.444EB605@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4978986B.27130.43E89658@cclist.sydex.com> <4978B285.25596.444EB605@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Never? I suppose it's what you mean by "never": And how many fires were caused by other electrical faults, not Christmas tree light related? You will find it is a tiny percentage of problems that were caused by these things. Close enough to never for me. -- Will From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jan 22 20:15:11 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 18:15:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Help identifying a big ol' drive platter In-Reply-To: <497852F6.2070701@mail.msu.edu> References: <497852F6.2070701@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <20090122181228.R12288@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 22 Jan 2009, Josh Dersch wrote: > It's an ancient hard disk platter, about 31" in diameter and maybe 1/8" > thick. It's made by 3M and has a label sporting a serial number and > inspection /waxing/etc dates from November of 1966. Any ideas what kind > of drive this would have belonged to? Any ideas on capacity? > I have a couple of photos at http://yahozna.dyndns.org/computers/platter. > I'd love to know what this went to. It looks nice on my wall, right > next to the IBM Microdrive... I have a somewhat similar one. Mine had been left behind when Merritt College cleared out a 1620 and a 1401 at the end of the 1960s. From lynchaj at yahoo.com Thu Jan 22 21:41:40 2009 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 22:41:40 -0500 Subject: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow > Sent: Friday, January 16, 2009 9:45 PM > To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org > Subject: hams on classiccmp > > > Wonder who else? > > probably lots.. > > Eric Smith just got his licence. > I know Don North is, as am I (wb9ggj) [AJL>] Andrew Lynch, 73 de N8VEM From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jan 23 00:07:05 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 01:07:05 -0500 Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <49790CE1.2070203@dunnington.plus.com> References: <49785399.11205.42DBBDF1@cclist.sydex.com> <497876F4.30168.4365E09D@cclist.sydex.com> <49790CE1.2070203@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <49795E89.5090208@gmail.com> Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 22/01/2009 23:35, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> It's good to know that acetone is good with acrylic. That'd >> be the other one I'd probably work with. > > Actually, it's not, particularly. It attacks acrylic, but isn't very > good for welding it. Chloroform is far superior, but do remember the > ventilation required! Not if you really want to have a good time. Peace... Sridhar From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Jan 22 15:38:15 2009 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 16:38:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: FSOT Seequa Chameleon In-Reply-To: <1232624524.25244.26.camel@host-72-250-236-64.ccvn.com> References: <1232460538.14174.6.camel@host-72-250-236-64.ccvn.com> <49773104.4040103@gmail.com> <497740F1.3050509@pacbell.net> <1232624524.25244.26.camel@host-72-250-236-64.ccvn.com> Message-ID: <200901222144.QAA06905@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Frankly, at this point, I don't know what a reasonable offer is. But > I can assure you my time and effort is worth more than a few pennies. Sure, but I suspect there's a terminological mismatch here. There are a number of people here, including me, to whom "giving away" means "cover shipping plus a bit over for time, trouble, and materials". (Exactly what "a bit over" means is, of course, always open to debate and, usually, negotiation, but the details don't affect the principle.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From robgarn at mac.com Thu Jan 22 19:38:31 2009 From: robgarn at mac.com (Robert Garner) Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 17:38:31 -0800 Subject: Wanted: DEC Computer Lab manuals In-Reply-To: <200901221434.n0MEXtOS047730@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901221434.n0MEXtOS047730@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Ed, Ethan, I have a copy of the DEC Computer Lab Teacher's Guide, 1st edition, 1968. I'll be away this weekend, but can try to get it scanned next week (and posted to bitsavers if not already there. It does have a spine...) - Robert On Jan 22, 2009, at 6:34 AM, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 00:45:44 -0500 > From: Ethan Dicks > Subject: Wanted: DEC Computer Lab manuals > To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Hi, All, > > I was one of the ones lucky enough to get one of the DEC Computer Labs > on ePay last month. Mine finally showed up, and after a quick > inspection, I'm ready to make some cables and hook up some circuits. > > Somewhere, I do have the teacher's manual. It was given to me nearly > 30 years ago, a thoughtful gift from my step-dad's mother who was the > local high school chem teacher. I haven't seen my copy in years, and > I'm worried it was one of the things I lost in a basement flood in the > 1980s. I did a google search and a look through bitsavers and didn't > see anything to download, but I did see that this topic has come up on > the list before. There was a call for scanning the docs some time > back (6 years ago?) but no posting of where said scans might be. > Also, there are Phillip's pictures of the cables on grid paper, so > they look like pretty ordinary crimp pins, but I'm having to guess at > the nominal diameter... 3mm? From the cover of the student manual, it > looks like there are 25-ish of the shortest (brown) jumpers, and fewer > of each longer length, but if anyone has a documented count of the > number of each length of jumper wire, that'd be really nice to know. > > So are there scans of the student and teacher's manuals for the > Computer Lab anywhere, and does anyone have a list (including in one > of the manuals) of the normal inventory of jumper leads? > > Oh... one more thing... does anyone have any idea which bi-pin bulbs > DEC used on this? I didn 't tear mine apart far enough tonight to get > bulb details. > > Thanks, > > -ethan > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 19 > Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 09:32:54 +0100 (CET) > From: "Ed Groenenberg" > Subject: Re: Wanted: DEC Computer Lab manuals > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > <18868.213.169.196.228.1232613174.squirrel at webmail.xs4all.nl> > Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1 > > > I'm also interested in a scanned or Xerox copied version, as I also > bought one of those Computer Lab's. It still has to arrive, overseas > shipping takes sometimes longer than one hopes. > > From doug at stillhq.com Fri Jan 23 04:43:51 2009 From: doug at stillhq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 21:43:51 +1100 Subject: SC/MP 8073 addressing query In-Reply-To: <0KDT00MZBOBTBKN0@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0KDT00MZBOBTBKN0@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <8D6A78A1-5B1E-44E0-9E4D-07A85CFA8510@stillhq.com> Thanks for that. Are you able to shed some light on the configuration bits that specify not just the baud rate but the 'rom start' options you mentioned Thanks Doug Jackson Principal Security Consultant EWA Australia Ph 02 6230 6833 Mo 0414 986 878 Sent from my iPhone On 22/01/2009, at 0:04, Allison wrote: >> >> Subject: SC/MP 8073 addressing query >> From: Doug Jackson >> Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 09:26:13 +1100 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > >> >> Hi list, >> >> I have an interesting question regarding the INS8073 (National >> Semiconductor SC/MP 3 with BASIC in ROM). >> >> Finally, somebody gave me a round tuit, and I have started work on a >> simple 8073 system. >> >> Eventually, it will have 8K of ROM, 8K of RAM, an 8255, and a >> switch / >> LED interface. Currently on the board, I have the 6264 RAM tied to >> the >> 8073, with no address decoding (ie the CS* on the RAM is tied to >> A15 on >> the CPU). Sadly, as a simple test, this does not operate as I would >> expect. I would have expected that the RAM would have been selected >> anywhere in the lower 32K or the memory map, and I would have a >> simple >> system that would spit out a console prompt. But no luck. >> >> Now the question.... The internal ROM is located in the lowest 4K or >> the memory map. When the CPU is fetching data from the lower 4K, >> does >> it assert the NRDS line, and sample the external bus? My belief is >> that >> it does not, as the trivial application note that I have seen simply >> ties a couple of 2114 to the processor, and uses A10 as the chip >> select. >> > > I built one years ago and pull it out frm time to time. > > No, it's less than 4K and yes you do get NRDS. > Also you need pull up resistors on selected lines to set baus rate and > boot on rom. > > I'd use 2116(2kb) or 2164s(8kB) as they are 8bits wide and really save > on parts and power over 2114. One 2164 placed at at 1000h makes for a > tiny sysem. > > Finally NIBLE when it starts does a memory check for (Ep)rom at 8000h. > There are some addresses that are tested for information that have to > be respected. > > If no one comes up with the circuit that National had for the demo > board > they sold I can scan my copy, it's pretty poor but may help. The > manual > is just too thick for me to scan or copy. > > > Allison > >> Any ideas? >> >> Doug >> >> >> >> -- >> Doug Jackson, I-RAP, MAIPM, MIEEE >> >> Principal Information Security Consultant >> EWA-AUSTRALIA >> PO Box 6308 O'Connor ACT 2602 >> Level 1, 214 Northbourne Ave, Braddon ACT 2612 >> >> Tel: +61 (0)2 6230 6833 >> Fax: +61 (0)2 6230 5833 >> Mob: +61 (0)414 986 878 >> >> http://www.ewa-australia.com >> >> >> ============================================ >> >> IMPORTANT: This email remains the property of Electronic Warfare >> Associates - Australia. If you have received this email in error, >> you are requested to contact doug.jackson at ewa-australia.com or Ph >> +61 2 62306833 and delete the email. This message is not to be >> copied or distributed to other parties without the express permission >> of the author. Any personal information in this email must be handled >> in accordance with the Privacy Act 1988 (Cth). >> >> ============================================ > From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Fri Jan 23 05:28:25 2009 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 12:28:25 +0100 Subject: Tek/Xerox Phaser 740 - need parts Message-ID: <20090123112825.18130@gmx.net> Hello everybody, a friend of mine has a problem with his Tektronix (=Xerox) Phaser 740 color laser printer, which I had picked up, relieved of a very nasty paper jam and sold to him some time ago. The heat-resistant, non-sticking rubber sleeve of the Upper Fuser Roller (the thing that revolves around the fuser lamp) has developed severe cracking and pitting of the surface despite the fuser unit still shows 91% of life remaining. However I do not see any discolo(u)ration or other evidence that the thing got too hot. As it would be a waste of good money and resources to replace the fuser unit as a whole now (there is a counter E2PROM inside which will dictate its replacement when it "should be exhausted" anyway), we're looking for either a good fuser roller out of a fuser unit which broke in some other way (or just reached its designed-in life), or a replacement sleeve to put on the roller. Even though Tektronix (of course) doesn't recommend replacing anything short of the whole unit, I was told that the roller of a Phaser 590 or 750 would do as well. We're located in Germany, Europe btw. Thanks everybody in advance, yours sincerely Arno Kletzander -- Arno Kletzander Student Assistant // Studentische Hilfskraft Informatik Sammlung Erlangen www.iser.uni-erlangen.de Psssst! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger geh?rt? Der kann`s mit allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Jan 23 06:53:37 2009 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 07:53:37 -0500 Subject: CP/M 2.2 Sector Translation Question Message-ID: <0KDX00MRVD4VGMU2@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: CP/M 2.2 Sector Translation Question > From: "ROBO5.8" > Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 18:30:54 -0500 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only'" > >Hi, > >I'd like to know if CP/M 2.2 is "Zero" biased when it comes to Sector >Translation. Since v2.2 supports Blocking/Deblocking I would assume it has >to be. I've looked at lots of code examples via Google and searched the >documentation but I cannot find a statement to that effect. The short answer is yes. > >Asking it another way: The Sector Translation routine is passed the >requested sector number in Registers B&C. Does CP/M request Sector 0 or 1 >when it wants the first sector on any track. Zero, Zed, 0. It's up to the bios to: A)translate that to a physical address, B) do what is needed for sector skew C) deblock if required. Allison >Thanks Robo From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Fri Jan 23 09:09:15 2009 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 15:09:15 +0000 Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <200901231134.n0NBXb75062903@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901231134.n0NBXb75062903@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <2B7701E9-4051-4FED-B7F8-A86070BCB8CB@microspot.co.uk> On 23 Jan, 2009, at 11:34, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > Message: 19 > Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 17:53:09 -0800 > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Subject: Re: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <4978B285.25596.444EB605 at cclist.sydex.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > On 22 Jan 2009 at 19:34, William Donzelli wrote: > >>> I've never understood why Christmas tree lamps (particularly the >>> miniature ones) aren't mandated as line-isolated low-voltage >>> devices. >> >> Probably because they never cause problems. > > Never? I suppose it's what you mean by "never": We were talking about risk of electrocution, not risk of fire. Even low voltage bulbs get hot and can cause fires. Roger Holmes From marvin at west.net Fri Jan 23 10:01:52 2009 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 08:01:52 -0800 Subject: FSOT Seequa Chameleon Message-ID: <4979E9F0.8F188A8A@west.net> der Mouse wrote: > Sure, but I suspect there's a terminological mismatch here. There are > a number of people here, including me, to whom "giving away" means > "cover shipping plus a bit over for time, trouble, and materials". > (Exactly what "a bit over" means is, of course, always open to debate > and, usually, negotiation, but the details don't affect the principle.) That is a great description of "giving away"! I'm not sure how many people follow my philosophy, but picking up will almost always result in a "better deal" than having to ship stuff as well :). But to bring it back on topic to the subject line, I also have a Seequa Chamelion and software, but I don't think any docs came with it. Hopefully at some point, I'll have the time to get it checked out, and at that point it will be for sale. And no, not on oBay! From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 23 10:58:11 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 11:58:11 -0500 Subject: Wanted: DEC Computer Lab manuals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jan 22, 2009, at 11:47 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I don't know if it's true of all versions of the Computer Lab, but > mine was made in Canada, and there's an internal board, additional to > the linked ones for the plugboard and the switch board, that is wired > between trace cuts on the switch board and mounted to the inside of > the frame with Richardson-head screws. Without tracing the board, I > can't tell exactly what it does, but it appears to be wedged > in-between the 8 data switches and the 8 light bulbs - perhaps the > original version of the switch board lit the lights when you flipped a > switch and the version I have allows you to light lights regardless of > switch positions? Mine fits this description exactly. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From robo58 at optonline.net Fri Jan 23 11:15:03 2009 From: robo58 at optonline.net (ROBO5.8) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 12:15:03 -0500 Subject: CP/M 2.2 Sector Translation Question In-Reply-To: <0KDX00MRVD4VGMU2@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0KDX00MRVD4VGMU2@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <005801c97d7e$219e3ee0$64dabca0$@net> Thanks for the quick help. Allison, Chuck and Dave. Robo -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Allison Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 7:54 AM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: CP/M 2.2 Sector Translation Question > >Subject: CP/M 2.2 Sector Translation Question > From: "ROBO5.8" > Date: Thu, 22 Jan 2009 18:30:54 -0500 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only'" > >Hi, > >I'd like to know if CP/M 2.2 is "Zero" biased when it comes to Sector >Translation. Since v2.2 supports Blocking/Deblocking I would assume it has >to be. I've looked at lots of code examples via Google and searched the >documentation but I cannot find a statement to that effect. The short answer is yes. > >Asking it another way: The Sector Translation routine is passed the >requested sector number in Registers B&C. Does CP/M request Sector 0 or 1 >when it wants the first sector on any track. Zero, Zed, 0. It's up to the bios to: A)translate that to a physical address, B) do what is needed for sector skew C) deblock if required. Allison >Thanks Robo From mtapley at swri.edu Fri Jan 23 14:44:01 2009 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 14:44:01 -0600 Subject: Computers, Monitors, Printers in San Antonio, TX In-Reply-To: <200901222302.n0MN2JMe055275@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901222302.n0MN2JMe055275@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: All, a fellow collector, John Gold in San Antonio, Texas, needs the space his collection now occupies. He needs that collection to evaporate, one way or another, to clear that space. I think there are probably items in it that will be of interest here. Please contact him at jhgold at stic.net to arrange payment, transfer, etc. Obviously, your coming to collect is preferable, but I think shipping is possible. I had not met him before he contacted me via one of the "rescue" lists, but spent a very enjoyable afternoon picking up some of his systems and accessories; I'd have no hesitation working with him myself, based on that experience. Other than that, I have no connection and am just acting as a messenger. A list of the items he's getting rid of is below. He has not set prices for these. Since I like him, and I'd like to see him get some tangible reward for his work in amassing, protecting, cataloging, and dispersing this collection, I encourage you to send a reasonable offer for what you are interested in. If you see things which are worth serious money, you might point those out to him as well. I have added my suggestions for "reasonable offers" to the list below, but these are *only* my suggestions. Computers $50 IBM 5324 large old work station/main frame HP Pavilion 7370V $30 IBM Power Server 320 Type 7012 $20 Macintosh Power PC G3 M4405 233MHz w/ keyboard & mouse $100 Apple 3 $10 CompuAdd 212 Model A002 Leading Edge DC-3010 PC Clone Tall Tower Eltech desktop clone PC Clone mini tower CompuAdd 325 Desktop Dell Dimension XPS M200S Dell Optiplex GXi $10 Sanyo MBC 550 NEC Power Mate V466 $40 Toshiba T1000 Laptop (2) w/ parts $40 Toshiba T1000SE Laptop (2) $30 NEC Multi Speed Laptop $10 Laser 128 Laptop/Portable Computer $50 IBM PC single 360K w/ HDD 5150 w/ keyboard $40 IBM AT clone NEC Ready 466ES NEC Power Mate 286 $10 AT&T Complete system w/ monitor & keyboard $10 AT&T Box (2) Model 6300 CPU1Z & CPU2 w/ 1 keyboard Compaq Presario 4550 mini tower Atari 400 w/ Cassette drive 410 IBM PS-2 Model 30 8530-001 IBM PS-2 Model 30 286 8530-U21 Packard Bell Legend 300SX 386SX-16 Compaq Prolinea MT4/66 tower GTE Government systems desktop Gateway P4D-66 Atari 520ST Monitors $20 IBM terminal 3151 RS-232 & printer ports (2) Atari SC1224 IBM 8513-001 SVGA Zenith Data Systems ZCM 1450DT $20 IBM 5153 CGA $40 Apple 3 monochrome XTRON RTB Technologies CM147E CompuAdd MCH 4095N (1989) $30 WYSE WY50 terminal w/ keyboard Dell VM1 mono (1990) Samsung MA2565 (1989) Packard Bell PB1272A (1988) Standard MCH4095N (1988) IBM 5081-16 Composite Video (1990) Sysdyne CGA (IBM clone) AES SVGA (1996) Samtron SVGA (1989) $20 IBM Terminal 3164-11 (1992) $20 NEC Multisync XV14 IBM 6405301 Serial monitor in box IBM 3164 serial terminal w/ base CompuAdd SVGA 51086 (1990) Magnavox Computer Monitor 80 video only Visual 120 Serial terminal w/ keyboard $20 NEC MultiSync JC-1401 P3A 13" (1986) $20 NEC MultiSync 3D $20 NEC MultiSync 3V Printers HP Desk Jet 500 Star NX-10 Dot Matrix Panasonic Quiet KX-P2180 $10 Epson LQ570 Dot Matrix Star NX-1000 Multi font w/ box Texas Instruments Microlaser Pro E Epson LQ-1000 Wide Carriage Dot Matrix $10 Qume Daisy Wheel w/ extra wheels and print cartridge Kodak Personal Portable Diconix 180si Miscellaneous $10/ea IBM Keyboards (5) Canon Personal Copier PC-3 w/toner cartridges Seiko Digitizer Tablets (3) $10/ea IBM SCSI drives 7204-001, 7207-001, 7210-001 EXABYTE SCSI tape drive CI Designs SCSI peripheral box / in box $20 IBM PC case 5150 $20 IBM XT case 5160 Musek scanner (no photo) Memorex scanner (no photo) IBM Keyboard??, 5015715, in box, never opened BK Precision 2040 CB Signal Generator Arnet serial expansion board, with software and cables $20 HP 1611A Logic State Analyzer for Z80? $20 Gould K105D Logic Analyzer for Z80? Various keyboards, internal cards, Creative Labs CD drives and Sound Blasters TRS-80 Printer Cassette interface for PC-2 (2) $10 TI-74 Basic Calc hand held computer NEC Versa docking station, in box , never used. -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 23 14:25:01 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 20:25:01 +0000 (GMT) Subject: FSOT Seequa Chameleon In-Reply-To: <200901222144.QAA06905@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> from "der Mouse" at Jan 22, 9 04:38:15 pm Message-ID: > > > Frankly, at this point, I don't know what a reasonable offer is. But > > I can assure you my time and effort is worth more than a few pennies. > > Sure, but I suspect there's a terminological mismatch here. There are > a number of people here, including me, to whom "giving away" means > "cover shipping plus a bit over for time, trouble, and materials". > (Exactly what "a bit over" means is, of course, always open to debate > and, usually, negotiation, but the details don't affect the principle.) I would agree. I am often something of a cheapskate, sure, but I wouldn't expect (or even ask) somebody to do something for me (like packing up a machine and taking it to the shipping place) for nothing. I would expect to pay for that. Similarly, of course, if the positions were reveresed, I wouldn't expect to have to take the time to pack it up for no reward. I might _offer_ to do it, expeically if it was for a friend, but I wouldn't regard it as somethign that should be expected of me. I also regard the shipping costs (my which I don't just mean the payment to the shipping company, but also the cost of the packing materials and a payment for the sender's time) to be independant of the value of the machine or, indeed, how much I paid for it (those 2 aren't the same either!). Many times I've boght things and paind 5 times as much for the shipping as I paid for the unit. And I am happy about that. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 23 14:29:14 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 20:29:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <18808.62892.412338.434876@gargle.gargle.HOWL> from "Paul Koning" at Jan 22, 9 05:39:40 pm Message-ID: > Then there are fun details like this one: ethanol is a nice harmless > cleaning fluid for many things, including most plastics. But it will > turn plexiglas matte. I remember some HP displays [1] where the data sheet warned you not to clean them with 'alcohol' (whether it meant ethanol, or any alcohol I don't know, and given the prices of the displays I was not going to try it!). Apparently alcohol would attack the plastic package and cloud up the viewing lenses. [1] These were 4 character, 14 segment LED 'starbust' displays with a built-in character generator ROM and scanner. You had 2 address lines and some data lines, and you sent it ASCII codes. The numnber '1414' springs to mind for the smallest/simplest one. I think some other company (Siemens?) made compatile LED dot matrix displays at one point too. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 23 15:17:10 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 21:17:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <4978FD8C.4090503@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Jan 22, 9 11:13:16 pm Message-ID: > > On 22/01/2009 18:50, Tony Duell wrote: > > > I beleive that Christmas lights are one of the few (if not the only) > > single-insulated non-earthed device that can be sold in the UK. > [ ... ] > > I also wonder how the light bulb sockets (both the BC (Baynoet Cap) ones > > used in the UK and the ES ones used elsewhere are approved. With the bulb > > removed (which can be done without the use of a tool), there are exposed > > livel parts. > > The IET Wiring Regulations merely require that you can't touch a live > part with a finger (and there's a standard to define how fat a finger > is) and without the use of a tool. It doesn't mean you can't remove the I have pictures of the 'Standard Test FInger' (a jointeed metal thing) used to test for this... > bulb without a tool, it means you can't then touch the live part without > a tool. In the case of Christmas lights the metal is somewhat recessed, I was thining of the dull-size BC and ES lampholders used for mains bulbs (and thus with mains applied to the contacts). You can remove the bulb without a tool and you can most certainly then touch live parts with any normal-sized human finger. > and you can't get a finger in, so it's allowed. I assume here that > we're talking about the ones that use miniature E5 (5mm ES) bulbs. Of > course even in this case, you can touch the live part with a > screwdriver, the tines of a table fork, a paperclip, etc -- but those > are defined as tools :-) Amusingly, these lights are classed as if > double-insulated, even though all the ones I've seen are not -- the Are they? I understood the normal appliances were 'Class 1' if they had an earth wire and 'Class 2' if double-insulated. And that 'Class 0' was single-insulated, but no earth, and about the only class 0 devices that could still be sold were decorative lights. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 23 15:20:57 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 21:20:57 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: <4978FE01.4030008@dunnington.plus.com> from "Pete Turnbull" at Jan 22, 9 11:15:13 pm Message-ID: > > On 22/01/2009 22:39, Paul Koning wrote: > > > Then there are fun details like this one: ethanol is a nice harmless > > cleaning fluid for many things, including most plastics. But it will > > turn plexiglas matte. > > And never use IPA to clean the focus screen in your SLR camera. I had > to have a Pentax dismantled and the screen replaced after that one. Thad depends on what the focussing screen is made of. Some of my cameras are old enough to have real ground-glass screens, which are not attacked by any common cleaning solvents. But the plastic ones used in more recent cameras are very easy to damage. Having just looked at a Spotmatic, I can confirm the focussing screen in that is plastic, and that it comes out upwards arter removing the top plate and pentaprism, so it's not trivial to replace. -tony From vrs at msn.com Fri Jan 23 15:36:42 2009 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 13:36:42 -0800 Subject: Wanted: DEC Computer Lab manuals References: Message-ID: > On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 12:45 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> Also, there are Phillip's pictures of the cables on grid paper, so >> they look like pretty ordinary crimp pins, but I'm having to guess at >> the nominal diameter... 3mm? They are not ordinary, at least I haven't been able to find any like them. They are brass taper pins, about .093" at the tip and about 0.1" higher up. The brass part is important. I tried using the regular .093" pins and splaying the backside slightly, but it did not work as well, and the steel or whatever the new pins are made of scratches up the little brass rings. >> From the cover of the student manual, it >> looks like there are 25-ish of the shortest (brown) jumpers, and fewer >> of each longer length, but if anyone has a documented count of the >> number of each length of jumper wire, that'd be really nice to know. >> >> So are there scans of the student and teacher's manuals for the >> Computer Lab anywhere, and does anyone have a list (including in one >> of the manuals) of the normal inventory of jumper leads? I looked through the manuals, and there's no information about jumper lengths or quantities in there, at least beyond what was already reported. >> Oh... one more thing... does anyone have any idea which bi-pin bulbs >> DEC used on this? I didn 't tear mine apart far enough tonight to get >> bulb details. According to the student manual, they are DEC #12-5591. According to the DEC parts list, that's a CM2306. The CM2306 is a 6V 20ma bulb with a brightness of 0.600mscp. (I'd guess that let them be run off the same supply as the logic.) > Thanks to Dan Veenaman for this - > . Now I know that at least > one jumper kit is 107 jumpers of varying length (and may be able to > deduce an approximation of spread from a scan of the manual cover). > Also of interest is the GIF of the plugboard - that looks quite handy > for documenting layouts. That stuff is also available in the back of the student manual. Vince From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jan 23 16:03:13 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 17:03:13 -0500 Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jan 23, 2009, at 3:29 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Then there are fun details like this one: ethanol is a nice harmless >> cleaning fluid for many things, including most plastics. But it will >> turn plexiglas matte. > > I remember some HP displays [1] where the data sheet warned you not to > clean them with 'alcohol' (whether it meant ethanol, or any alcohol I > don't know, and given the prices of the displays I was not going to > try > it!). Apparently alcohol would attack the plastic package and cloud up > the viewing lenses. > > [1] These were 4 character, 14 segment LED 'starbust' displays with a > built-in character generator ROM and scanner. You had 2 address > lines and > some data lines, and you sent it ASCII codes. The numnber '1414' > springs > to mind for the smallest/simplest one. I think some other company > (Siemens?) made compatile LED dot matrix displays at one point too. HPDL-1414, I've used a few in projects here. They're damn nice displays. The datasheet mentions nothing about alcohol, though. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jan 23 16:14:06 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 17:14:06 -0500 Subject: Wanted: DEC Computer Lab manuals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 4:36 PM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: >> On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 12:45 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> >>> Also, there are Phillip's pictures of the cables on grid paper, so >>> they look like pretty ordinary crimp pins, but I'm having to guess at >>> the nominal diameter... 3mm? > > They are not ordinary, at least I haven't been able to find any like them. > They are brass taper pins, about .093" at the tip and about 0.1" > higher up. The brass part is important. I tried using the regular .093" > pins and splaying the backside slightly, but it did not work as well, and > the steel or whatever the new pins are made of scratches up the little brass > rings. Ah... important to know! I had thought the eyelets to be steel, but it sounds like they are plated brass, then. I had been considering trying molex pins, but apparently that's going to be a poor choice. > I looked through the manuals, and there's no information about jumper > lengths or quantities in there, at least beyond what was already reported. OK. >>> Oh... one more thing... does anyone have any idea which bi-pin bulbs >>> DEC used on this? > > According to the student manual, they are DEC #12-5591. According to the > DEC parts list, that's a CM2306. The CM2306 is a 6V 20ma bulb > with a brightness of 0.600mscp. Good to know. Chicago Lamp or someone ought to have something that works. > (I'd guess that let them be run off the same supply as the logic.) Probably. Thanks for the info, Vince, -ethan From vrs at msn.com Fri Jan 23 17:17:20 2009 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 15:17:20 -0800 Subject: Wanted: DEC Computer Lab manuals References: Message-ID: From: "Ethan Dicks" Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 2:14 PM > On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 4:36 PM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: >>> On Thu, Jan 22, 2009 at 12:45 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>>> >>>> Also, there are Phillip's pictures of the cables on grid paper, so >>>> they look like pretty ordinary crimp pins, but I'm having to guess at >>>> the nominal diameter... 3mm? >> >> They are not ordinary, at least I haven't been able to find any like >> them. >> They are brass taper pins, about .093" at the tip and about 0.1" >> higher up. The brass part is important. I tried using the regular .093" >> pins and splaying the backside slightly, but it did not work as well, and >> the steel or whatever the new pins are made of scratches up the little >> brass rings. BTW, I checked, and the molex pins I tried aren't steel or anything magnetic. They do have sharp edges, so maybe that's why they appear to be marring the eyelets. > Ah... important to know! I had thought the eyelets to be steel, but > it sounds like they are plated brass, then. > > I had been considering trying molex pins, but apparently that's going > to be a poor choice. For what it's worth, mini-banana plugs *do* fit nicely. They have two or three problems, though. First, the housings are fatter than the simple pins, so you can't use both of the side-by-side eyelets. That means you'll end up needing the stackable ones. Second, they are horribly expensive. Third, they aren't very authentic. Well, sorta. The 911 patchcord kits sold with for the H9xx and K9xx mounting panels (logic lab gear) consisted of various color coded lengths of wire with stackable mini-banana jacks on the ends. So DEC at least used mini-banana patch-cords at one point, on their higher end stuff. > Thanks for the info, Vince, You're welcome! Vince From generalordertwentyfour at gmail.com Fri Jan 23 17:57:22 2009 From: generalordertwentyfour at gmail.com (Tom Hudson) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 18:57:22 -0500 Subject: plastics Message-ID: many types of course. Generally speaking do the materials used in pc's from the 80s fall into a single category? Everything is injected into a mold for sure, from largish cases to tiny keytops. Would all this qualify as polystyrene? Whatever the case, what's a good solvent (not necessarily glue) that's useful for repairing big cracks or splits, to tiny hairline cracks. I say solvent, and some glues can fall into this category, because it makes more sense to reinforce the materials from behind to effect a strong bond, and for cosmetic sake meld the item from the front, to obscure the defect itself. Many surfaces are anything but smooth. Has anyone tried, given they were successful in melding the surface, in reproducing the look of the surface surrounding it? Smooth surfaces can be melded then touched up lightly w/ultra fine emery cloth and some sort of lubricant I would guess. But the rough textures are a different story. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Jan 23 18:10:33 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 00:10:33 +0000 Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <497A5C79.8040803@dunnington.plus.com> On 23/01/2009 21:20, Tony Duell wrote: >> And never use IPA to clean the focus screen in your SLR camera. I had >> to have a Pentax dismantled and the screen replaced after that one. > > Thad depends on what the focussing screen is made of. Some of my cameras > are old enough to have real ground-glass screens, which are not attacked > by any common cleaning solvents. But the plastic ones used in more recent > cameras are very easy to damage. Having just looked at a Spotmatic, I can > confirm the focussing screen in that is plastic, and that it comes out > upwards arter removing the top plate and pentaprism, so it's not trivial > to replace. The one I damaged wasn't a Spotmatic (though I do have one), it was my trusty ME Super. The screen comes out the top much as a Spotmatic one does, so I wasn't pleased with myself. In case you're wondering why the solvent was there at all, it was a problem that many classiccmpers will be familiar with: aged foam that had crumbled and gone gooey. It's used for the light seals around the camera back and mirror box, and some from the mirror box had found its way onto the screen. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Jan 23 18:22:26 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 00:22:26 +0000 Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <497A5F42.8060407@dunnington.plus.com> On 23/01/2009 21:17, Tony Duell wrote: > I was thining of the dull-size BC and ES lampholders used for mains > bulbs (and thus with mains applied to the contacts). You can remove the > bulb without a tool and you can most certainly then touch live parts > with any normal-sized human finger. Yes, I realised that after Gordon's comment. >> Amusingly, these lights are classed as if >> double-insulated, even though all the ones I've seen are not -- the > > Are they? I understood the normal appliances were 'Class 1' if they had > an earth wire and 'Class 2' if double-insulated. And that 'Class 0' was > single-insulated, but no earth, and about the only class 0 devices that > could still be sold were decorative lights. You could be right about that -- I was basing my assessment on the fact that they're tested using Class II tests and settings (at least on our Seaward testers). -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Jan 23 18:19:09 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 00:19:09 +0000 Subject: plastics In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <497A5E7D.2070400@dunnington.plus.com> On 23/01/2009 23:57, Tom Hudson wrote: > many types of course. Generally speaking do the materials used in pc's from > the 80s fall into a single category? Everything is injected into a mold for > sure, from largish cases to tiny keytops. Would all this qualify as > polystyrene? Almost none of it is. ABS is one of the most common plastics, but you'll find others, including PVC, glass-filled nylon, polypropylene, HDPE, and more. > Many surfaces are anything but smooth. Has anyone tried, given they were > successful in melding the surface, in reproducing the look of the surface > surrounding it? Smooth surfaces can be melded then touched up lightly > w/ultra fine emery cloth and some sort of lubricant I would guess. But the > rough textures are a different story. If it's a really small area I've sometimes tried stippling with a fine brush after applying a tiny amount of solvent, or "ragging" it with a wad of suitably textured cloth (wadded into a ball and applied like a stippler). Perhaps it's just my lack of skill, but I'd describe the results as disguises rather than matching repairs. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 23 18:59:01 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 16:59:01 -0800 Subject: plastics In-Reply-To: <497A5E7D.2070400@dunnington.plus.com> References: , <497A5E7D.2070400@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4979F755.26088.49436614@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Jan 2009 at 0:19, Pete Turnbull wrote: > Almost none of it is. ABS is one of the most common plastics, but > you'll find others, including PVC, glass-filled nylon, polypropylene, > HDPE, and more. There are some filled plastics used during the 90's (probably ABS) with what seems to be a too-high proportion of filler. These tend to be almost fragile now, shattering into many small pieces when subjected to any force at all. I've resorted to fiberglass mesh and polyester resin to repair and reinforce these, finishing up with a coat of paint. Doesn't look bad, but is hardly original. I played with the idea of making a mold from the old pieces and using acrylic resin to cast a duplicate, but there were too many details (mounting bosses, ribs, tabs, etc.) on both sides to assure success. Cheers, Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jan 23 19:50:14 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 20:50:14 -0500 Subject: plastics In-Reply-To: <497A5E7D.2070400@dunnington.plus.com> References: <497A5E7D.2070400@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <497A73D6.2040501@gmail.com> Pete Turnbull wrote: > If it's a really small area I've sometimes tried stippling with a fine > brush after applying a tiny amount of solvent, or "ragging" it with a > wad of suitably textured cloth (wadded into a ball and applied like a > stippler). Perhaps it's just my lack of skill, but I'd describe the > results as disguises rather than matching repairs. I've had some success using "patch paper", which is normally sold for use in repairing synthetic automotive upholstery. You inject whatever multipart epoxy is compatible with the plastic you're trying to repair, put the patch paper texture-side-down on the surface of the plastic, and wait for the epoxy to set. When it's halfway-set but not fully cured, you remove the patch paper. Then you leave the epoxy to set, while careful not to shift the join until the curing is complete. The only tricky bit is that you have to make sure the patch paper is compatible with the epoxy. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jan 23 19:52:16 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 20:52:16 -0500 Subject: plastics In-Reply-To: <4979F755.26088.49436614@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <497A5E7D.2070400@dunnington.plus.com> <4979F755.26088.49436614@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <497A7450.2080605@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Almost none of it is. ABS is one of the most common plastics, but >> you'll find others, including PVC, glass-filled nylon, polypropylene, >> HDPE, and more. > > There are some filled plastics used during the 90's (probably ABS) > with what seems to be a too-high proportion of filler. These tend to > be almost fragile now, shattering into many small pieces when > subjected to any force at all. I've resorted to fiberglass mesh and > polyester resin to repair and reinforce these, finishing up with a > coat of paint. Doesn't look bad, but is hardly original. > > I played with the idea of making a mold from the old pieces and using > acrylic resin to cast a duplicate, but there were too many details > (mounting bosses, ribs, tabs, etc.) on both sides to assure success. I have rapid-prototyping equipment here, which is capable of creating small parts like those. The only problem is that I currently have no way of scanning anything in 3D. I have to take measurements and manually generate a CAD drawing. It makes it less than convenient. Peace... Sridhar From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Fri Jan 23 20:58:32 2009 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 18:58:32 -0800 Subject: plastics - rapid prototyping and 3d scanning In-Reply-To: <497A7450.2080605@gmail.com> References: , <497A5E7D.2070400@dunnington.plus.com> <4979F755.26088.49436614@cclist.sydex.com> <497A7450.2080605@gmail.com> Message-ID: <497A83D8.90105@sbcglobal.net> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> Almost none of it is. ABS is one of the most common plastics, but >>> you'll find others, including PVC, glass-filled nylon, >>> polypropylene, HDPE, and more. >> >> There are some filled plastics used during the 90's (probably ABS) >> with what seems to be a too-high proportion of filler. These tend to >> be almost fragile now, shattering into many small pieces when >> subjected to any force at all. I've resorted to fiberglass mesh and >> polyester resin to repair and reinforce these, finishing up with a >> coat of paint. Doesn't look bad, but is hardly original. >> >> I played with the idea of making a mold from the old pieces and using >> acrylic resin to cast a duplicate, but there were too many details >> (mounting bosses, ribs, tabs, etc.) on both sides to assure success. > > I have rapid-prototyping equipment here, which is capable of creating > small parts like those. The only problem is that I currently have no > way of scanning anything in 3D. I have to take measurements and > manually generate a CAD drawing. It makes it less than convenient. > > Peace... Sridhar > I have always wanted to try rapid prototyping to make replacement switch levers and possibly key caps. While searching around for RP services I found this relatively inexpensive 3d scanner system: http://www.intricad.com/ It uses a camcorder and a turntable + software. Looks interesting. Bob From onymouse at garlic.com Tue Jan 20 07:53:14 2009 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Tue, 20 Jan 2009 05:53:14 -0800 Subject: Oxidation In-Reply-To: <4974F2C2.646D5CBC@cs.ubc.ca> References: <200901190510.n0J59jJQ076599@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <5F926703-EBE5-4E68-94E8-956912B86A7C@microspot.co.uk> <49746995.11261.3391ACF7@cclist.sydex.com> <4974F2C2.646D5CBC@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4975D74A.7080604@garlic.com> Brent Hilpert ????????: > > If chemical treatment or polishing is inadequate, Scotchbrite pads with water > might be a next step. They can be surprisingly abrasive on soft metals (they > can remove thin plating or anodising), so one wants to be gentle at first, but > they are less aggressive than steel wool or wire-brushing. I haven't heard of > any issues with them leaving embedded particles, as has been mentioned as a > problem with steel wool. > There are several different grades of Scotch Brite. The baby blue grade, which is the gentlest, might be preferable to the green, red, gray or other grades. That's all I remember of the grades but if you find a box of the stuff, the grades should be described on it. Perhaps the info is also on the 3M website somewhere? == jd When the weight of the paperwork equals the weight of the plane, the plane will fly. -- Donald Douglas -- jd From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Fri Jan 23 22:48:05 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 20:48:05 -0800 Subject: Schematic/Dip-switch info for PSS RAM65 (S-100) Message-ID: <497A9D85.7070009@mail.msu.edu> As the title suggests, I have a PSS (Problem Solver Systems?) RAM65 S-100 static RAM board. No documentation. Anyone have any docs/schematics/info about this? I ask because I need to configure it, plus a chip appears to be missing at IC51... Thanks! Josh From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Fri Jan 23 22:55:10 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 20:55:10 -0800 Subject: Help identifying a big ol' drive platter In-Reply-To: <49783B4F.13996.427CF22E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <497852F6.2070701@mail.msu.edu>, <308497.37438.qm@web82608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <49783B4F.13996.427CF22E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <497A9F2E.20004@mail.msu.edu> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 22 Jan 2009 at 3:42, William Maddox wrote: > > >> I've seen large platters like this on head-per-track disks >> made by Burroughs. There's one on the Illiac IV at CHM. >> I saw a similar drive at CMU that was allegedly the swapping >> disk for a DEC KA-10. I vaguely remember being told that >> the capacity was 512K words (36 bit on the KA-10). The >> drive was designed for speed, not capacity. >> > > Could also be from one of the vertically-mounted Bryant disks. I > used to have one of those platters in my office; thought about making > a coffee table of it, but the hole in the middle was a problem. > > IIRC, they didn't spin very fast--about 600 RPM. The heads were very > heavy. > > There are photos and specs for Byrant units on the web. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > Wow, that's quite a drive! Found a brochure of sorts at http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/Bryant/Bryant.Model2.1965.102646212.pdf. (Gotta love the gal they have on the cover :)). Unfortunately these drives have 39" platters according to the above, so they're not what my platter came from... very cool, though :) Josh From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 24 00:01:23 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 22:01:23 -0800 Subject: Help identifying a big ol' drive platter In-Reply-To: <497A9F2E.20004@mail.msu.edu> References: <497852F6.2070701@mail.msu.edu>, <49783B4F.13996.427CF22E@cclist.sydex.com>, <497A9F2E.20004@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <497A3E33.25558.4A5897FE@cclist.sydex.com> On 23 Jan 2009 at 20:55, Josh Dersch wrote: > Wow, that's quite a drive! > > Found a brochure of sorts at > http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/Bryant/Bryant.Model2.1965.102646212.pdf. > (Gotta love the gal they have on the cover :)). > > Unfortunately these drives have 39" platters according to the above, so > they're not what my platter came from... very cool, though :) It wasn't until a couple of hours ago that Jules sent me a link to your photos and I knew right away that it wasn't it (my ISP automatically bounces anything with a dyndns address in it). The Bryant had a larger center hole and the disks were thicker. CDC put them together with a controller and called them the 6603. Zoned recording--the inner zone had fewer sectors than the outer. Cheers, Chuck From wmaddox at pacbell.net Sat Jan 24 03:49:23 2009 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 01:49:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: Stuff available in Cupertino, CA -- Free for local pickup, or make offer In-Reply-To: <20090122.170523.5394.2@webmail10.vgs.untd.com> Message-ID: <972267.93709.qm@web82602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 1/22/09, jeff.kaneko at juno.com wrote: > Hey Bill-- > > I live in Merced, and would like to come to SIlicon Valley > to > pick up the Sony Monitor. How soon do you need me to come > get this (assuming it hasn't been claimed already)? Do you make it to this area regularly? I wouldn't want you to make a trip out here and then be disappointed if the monitor will not do what you want it to. The monitor has not yet been claimed, but I would like for it to go away soon. I'd really like it out of here by next weekend. I may advertise it on Craigslist shortly if I don't have a taker for it. > Also, I could find no specifications for this monitor. > Can it do Sync on Green? I'm not sure about this. Some fellow on the internet claimed to have one running sync-on-green, but take that for what its worth. Sun doesn't use this, and if the monitor supports it, that would be something inherited from its Sony OEM lineage. I couldn't find a definitive spec sheet. I do have the manual somewhere, but it may take some effort to locate it. I know this monitor will work with Sun Ultra 1 gear and other Sun workstations with 13W3 video output. It also works great with a PC using the adapter cable that I will include. There are some specs on this page: http://www.sunshack.org/data/sh/2.1/infoserver.central/data/syshbk/Devices/Monitor/MONITOR_Color_20_Premium_CRT.html Scroll down about midway, and look for Option X267A MFG Part # 365-1335 [F] This was the only hint that I found that sync-on-green might be supported: http://unix.derkeiler.com/Newsgroups/comp.sys.sun.hardware/2004-05/0370.html Best regards, --Bill From charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com Fri Jan 23 23:31:42 2009 From: charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Fri, 23 Jan 2009 21:31:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: Help identifying a big ol' drive platter In-Reply-To: <497A9F2E.20004@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <666108.95674.qm@web35305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> There is a Bryant drive on display in the lobby of IT-Ceum (Swedish Computer History Museum - http://www.itceum.se/english/index.php) in Link?ping. Sorry, no pictures. Lee Courtney --- On Fri, 1/23/09, Josh Dersch wrote: > From: Josh Dersch > Subject: Re: Help identifying a big ol' drive platter > To: "On-Topic Posts Only" > Date: Friday, January 23, 2009, 8:55 PM > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 22 Jan 2009 at 3:42, William Maddox wrote: > > > > > >> I've seen large platters like this on > head-per-track disks > >> made by Burroughs. There's one on the Illiac > IV at CHM. > >> I saw a similar drive at CMU that was allegedly > the swapping > >> disk for a DEC KA-10. I vaguely remember being > told that > >> the capacity was 512K words (36 bit on the KA-10). > The > >> drive was designed for speed, not capacity. > >> > > > > Could also be from one of the vertically-mounted > Bryant disks. I used to have one of those platters in my > office; thought about making a coffee table of it, but the > hole in the middle was a problem. > > > > IIRC, they didn't spin very fast--about 600 RPM. > The heads were very heavy. > > There are photos and specs for Byrant units on the > web. > > > > Cheers, > > Chuck > > > > > > > Wow, that's quite a drive! > > Found a brochure of sorts at > http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/Bryant/Bryant.Model2.1965.102646212.pdf. > (Gotta love the gal they have on the cover :)). > > Unfortunately these drives have 39" platters according > to the above, so they're not what my platter came > from... very cool, though :) > > Josh From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Jan 24 03:45:14 2009 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 04:45:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: HP IIISi: "50 SERVICE" In-Reply-To: <200901220935.EAA03427@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <889053.98289.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <804239.42485.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200901220935.EAA03427@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <200901240950.EAA17639@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Back in June (2008), I wrote about my HP IIISi laser printer > complaining "50 SERVICE". [...] Today I picked up a new fuser and replaced it, and now it works. However, there's a vertical line of what I can perhaps best describe as fog on every page. Last time I had something of the sort, replacing the toner cartridge (which includes a roller of some sort) fixed it. I slid the door over the roller open and the fog is visible on the roller too. Perhaps interestingly, this fog was not present on the first few pages printed (which were test pages); it showed up while I was printing "real data". Is this something that can be fixed, or will I just have to put up with it until I change toner cartridges? Also, the thing is giving me a lot of paper jams with the page stuck in the paper path after the fuser - sometimes they register as internal jams, sometimes as output jams. It's not consistent, but frequent enough to be annoying. Any ideas what could be causing that? /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From emu at e-bbes.com Sat Jan 24 04:33:39 2009 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 11:33:39 +0100 Subject: HP IIISi: "50 SERVICE" In-Reply-To: <200901220935.EAA03427@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <889053.98289.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <804239.42485.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200901220935.EAA03427@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <497AEE83.9010601@e-bbes.com> der Mouse wrote: > > Today I finally collected the round tuits to check it out - and yes, > the fuser "lamp" has failed open-circuit. Fortunately, a month or two > back I spoke with an printer repair tech who came to service a printer > at work; he gave me contact info for the place he gets replacements for > such things, so I'm set in that respect. Just publish if you find a good address. I saw this message on my printer (4mx?) too, so I'm proably next ;-) Cheers From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sat Jan 24 04:37:46 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 08:37:46 -0200 Subject: HP IIISi: "50 SERVICE" References: <889053.98289.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com><804239.42485.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com><200901220935.EAA03427@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <200901240950.EAA17639@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <035601c97e0f$cfcce250$46fea8c0@DeskJara> > Is this something that can be fixed, or will I just have to put up with > it until I change toner cartridges? Change the cart, or at least the photossensible cylinder of the toner cart (of course, cheaper to change the entire cart hehehe) > Also, the thing is giving me a lot of paper jams with the page stuck in > the paper path after the fuser - sometimes they register as internal > jams, sometimes as output jams. It's not consistent, but frequent > enough to be annoying. Any ideas what could be causing that? Take a look at the ruber rolls and bands of the paper path, there must be something slipping. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Jan 24 08:21:29 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 14:21:29 +0000 Subject: plastics In-Reply-To: <497A73D6.2040501@gmail.com> References: <497A5E7D.2070400@dunnington.plus.com> <497A73D6.2040501@gmail.com> Message-ID: <497B23E9.5080106@dunnington.plus.com> On 24/01/2009 01:50, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Pete Turnbull wrote: >> If it's a really small area I've sometimes tried stippling with a fine >> brush > I've had some success using "patch paper", which is normally sold for > use in repairing synthetic automotive upholstery. That sounds interesting -- I'll look for it. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sat Jan 24 10:09:43 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 14:09:43 -0200 Subject: HP IIISi: "50 SERVICE" References: <889053.98289.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <804239.42485.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200901220935.EAA03427@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <497AEE83.9010601@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <05f801c97e3e$5c5a1750$46fea8c0@DeskJara> >> Today I finally collected the round tuits to check it out - and yes, >> the fuser "lamp" has failed open-circuit. Fortunately, a month or two >> back I spoke with an printer repair tech who came to service a printer >> at work; he gave me contact info for the place he gets replacements for >> such things, so I'm set in that respect. > Just publish if you find a good address. I saw this message on my > printer (4mx?) too, so I'm proably next ;-) www.repair-printer.com comes to mind. excellent service! From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Jan 24 11:19:40 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 09:19:40 -0800 Subject: HP IIISi: "50 SERVICE" In-Reply-To: <035601c97e0f$cfcce250$46fea8c0@DeskJara> References: <889053.98289.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com><804239.42485.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com><200901220935.EAA03427@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <200901240950.EAA17639@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <035601c97e0f$cfcce250$46fea8c0@DeskJara> Message-ID: Hi It is the cartridge but not the photo sensitive drum. This is almost 100% caused by the PCR ( primary charge roller ). If the Photo drum fails, it is missing toner or fading text. The PCR is deep inside the cartridge but can be replaced. They normal go for around $10 someplace. I'm told that one can clean them but I've not tried it. It is a rubber like material and is suppose to carry the charge off the photo drum. There is also a scrapper that can fail. If it gets junk in it, it will let toner get by and contaminate the PCR. It is a self intensifying process. The more the PCR get contaminated, the more gets by the scrapper. More that gets by, the more that builds on the PCR, the less it is able to remove charge, the more builds on the drum. There is normally a thin flim of toner on the drum. This is normal. One needs to learn how to open the cartridges. I also have a 4SI ( used to have a 3SI ). These use the Canon NX cartridge. After searching the net, I finally found these pages showing how to open the cartridge: http://sklepamm.super.sklep.pl/pdf/NXTechGuide.pdf In picture 1 they show a special tool to remove the plastic pin. I found a screw that just goes into it and a pair of pliers works well( I forget the screw size ). Also look at: http://www.futuregraphicsllc.com/lit/tg/nx.pdf Remember, don't touch any of the surfaces with fingers. The oil will mess things up. Dwight ---------------------------------------- > From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 08:37:46 -0200 > CC: > Subject: Re: HP IIISi: "50 SERVICE" > >> Is this something that can be fixed, or will I just have to put up with >> it until I change toner cartridges? > > Change the cart, or at least the photossensible cylinder of the toner > cart (of course, cheaper to change the entire cart hehehe) > >> Also, the thing is giving me a lot of paper jams with the page stuck in >> the paper path after the fuser - sometimes they register as internal >> jams, sometimes as output jams. It's not consistent, but frequent >> enough to be annoying. Any ideas what could be causing that? > > Take a look at the ruber rolls and bands of the paper path, there must > be something slipping. > _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live? Hotmail??more than just e-mail. http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_howitworks_012009 From frustum at pacbell.net Sat Jan 24 11:21:02 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 11:21:02 -0600 Subject: someone selling bitsavers cd's on ebay? Message-ID: <497B4DFE.9060104@pacbell.net> I just noticed this: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZmariamarkham Considering some of the odd groupings (eg DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORPORATION AND OSBORNE DOCUMENTS), it seems like this person is perhaps not putting a lot of effort into this or isn't knowledgeable. And if they aren't either of those, what are the odds they'd bother collecting and scanning these materials? On the one hand you can argue: they are just offering a service for people who can't download large volumes of documents. On the other hand, all of us are skating on some thin ice by scanning copyrighted material in the hopes that nobody really cares. It seems like a bad precedent for someone to be selling them for profit. From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sat Jan 24 11:53:24 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 18:53:24 +0100 Subject: someone selling bitsavers cd's on ebay? In-Reply-To: <497B4DFE.9060104@pacbell.net> References: <497B4DFE.9060104@pacbell.net> Message-ID: A copy from the feedback she's getting... *BEWARE* Sells photo-copies of vintage items & claims they are very rare !!! the answer : If you cannot find a copy of something then it is rare, ask b4 buying moron !!!! Says something about the seller..... I think it's a opportunistic persoon with a short of cash.... Couldn't be a list member. -Rik > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Jim Battle > Verzonden: zaterdag 24 januari 2009 18:21 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: someone selling bitsavers cd's on ebay? > > I just noticed this: > > http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZmariamarkham > > Considering some of the odd groupings (eg DIGITAL EQUIPMENT > CORPORATION AND OSBORNE DOCUMENTS), it seems like this person > is perhaps not putting a lot of effort into this or isn't > knowledgeable. And if they aren't either of those, what are > the odds they'd bother collecting and scanning these materials? > > On the one hand you can argue: they are just offering a > service for people who can't download large volumes of > documents. On the other hand, all of us are skating on some > thin ice by scanning copyrighted material in the hopes that > nobody really cares. It seems like a bad precedent for > someone to be selling them for profit. From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Jan 24 12:13:40 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 13:13:40 -0500 Subject: Help identifying a big ol' drive platter In-Reply-To: <497A9F2E.20004@mail.msu.edu> References: <497852F6.2070701@mail.msu.edu> <49783B4F.13996.427CF22E@cclist.sydex.com> <497A9F2E.20004@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <200901241313.41491.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 23 January 2009 11:55:10 pm Josh Dersch wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 22 Jan 2009 at 3:42, William Maddox wrote: > >> I've seen large platters like this on head-per-track disks > >> made by Burroughs. There's one on the Illiac IV at CHM. > >> I saw a similar drive at CMU that was allegedly the swapping > >> disk for a DEC KA-10. I vaguely remember being told that > >> the capacity was 512K words (36 bit on the KA-10). The > >> drive was designed for speed, not capacity. > > > > Could also be from one of the vertically-mounted Bryant disks. I > > used to have one of those platters in my office; thought about making > > a coffee table of it, but the hole in the middle was a problem. > > > > IIRC, they didn't spin very fast--about 600 RPM. The heads were very > > heavy. > > > > There are photos and specs for Byrant units on the web. > > > > Cheers, > > Chuck > > Wow, that's quite a drive! > > Found a brochure of sorts at > http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/Bryant/Bryant.Model2.1965 >.102646212.pdf. (Gotta love the gal they have on the cover :)). Wow, how sixties...! :-) I especially like that pic of the unit with the cover off on page 5. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From vern4wright at yahoo.com Sat Jan 24 12:17:44 2009 From: vern4wright at yahoo.com (Vernon Wright) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 10:17:44 -0800 (PST) Subject: someone selling bitsavers cd's on ebay? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <181202.50636.qm@web65513.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Thing is, the negative feedback is back in 2004! Since then it seems positive. And I don't see what "she" was selling back in '04. If it's rip-offs from bitsavers, well then I have a problem. OTOH, if "she" has been scanning her own collection, then 1) why the hell isn't she a member here? ...and... 2) it's her problem dealing with copyright owners. Vern --- On Sat, 1/24/09, Rik Bos wrote: > From: Rik Bos > Subject: RE: someone selling bitsavers cd's on ebay? > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > Date: Saturday, January 24, 2009, 9:53 AM > A copy from the feedback she's getting... > *BEWARE* Sells photo-copies of vintage items & claims > they are very rare !!! > the answer : > If you cannot find a copy of something then it is rare, ask > b4 buying moron > !!!! > > Says something about the seller..... > > I think it's a opportunistic persoon with a short of > cash.... > Couldn't be a list member. > > -Rik > > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Jim > Battle > > Verzonden: zaterdag 24 januari 2009 18:21 > > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Onderwerp: someone selling bitsavers cd's on ebay? > > > > I just noticed this: > > > > http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZmariamarkham > > > > Considering some of the odd groupings (eg DIGITAL > EQUIPMENT > > CORPORATION AND OSBORNE DOCUMENTS), it seems like this > person > > is perhaps not putting a lot of effort into this or > isn't > > knowledgeable. And if they aren't either of > those, what are > > the odds they'd bother collecting and scanning > these materials? > > > > On the one hand you can argue: they are just offering > a > > service for people who can't download large > volumes of > > documents. On the other hand, all of us are skating > on some > > thin ice by scanning copyrighted material in the hopes > that > > nobody really cares. It seems like a bad precedent > for > > someone to be selling them for profit. From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Jan 24 12:18:21 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 13:18:21 -0500 Subject: HP IIISi: "50 SERVICE" In-Reply-To: <200901240950.EAA17639@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <889053.98289.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200901220935.EAA03427@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <200901240950.EAA17639@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <200901241318.21786.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 24 January 2009 04:45:14 am der Mouse wrote: > > Back in June (2008), I wrote about my HP IIISi laser printer > > complaining "50 SERVICE". [...] > > Today I picked up a new fuser and replaced it, and now it works. > > However, there's a vertical line of what I can perhaps best describe as > fog on every page. I just got over a similar problem with my LJ5MP, running down the left side of the page. :-( > Last time I had something of the sort, replacing the toner cartridge (which > includes a roller of some sort) fixed it. The cartridge in my case includes the drum (I understand that's not always the case) but it's a rubber wiper in there that's the problem. Replacing it was also the solution in my case. > I slid the door over the roller open and the fog is visible on the roller > too. Perhaps interestingly, this fog was not present on the first few > pages printed (which were test pages); it showed up while I was > printing "real data". Yep, the toner that's deposited on the drum is supposed to be removed by that rubber wiper, which apparently has a bad spot on it. > Is this something that can be fixed, or will I just have to put up with > it until I change toner cartridges? How ambitious do you want to get? :-) I may someday have a go at tackling that cartridge I removed, if I can find a convenient source for the part, but I'm in no particular hurry to do so at this point. > Also, the thing is giving me a lot of paper jams with the page stuck in > the paper path after the fuser - sometimes they register as internal > jams, sometimes as output jams. It's not consistent, but frequent > enough to be annoying. Any ideas what could be causing that? Is there some rubber roller in that portion of the paper path? If so, that's probably the culprit there, too. I just got into the yahoo "printer support" group, and am finding it useful. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sat Jan 24 12:36:06 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 19:36:06 +0100 Subject: someone selling bitsavers cd's on ebay? In-Reply-To: <181202.50636.qm@web65513.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <181202.50636.qm@web65513.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8981EED805C74877B576A25B84552268@xp1800> 'She' got three times feedback as seller two were negative ! She seems to be a good buyer .. Well I'm not spending my money on 'her' items with bitsavers and other sources around ;-) -Rik > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Vernon Wright > Verzonden: zaterdag 24 januari 2009 19:18 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: RE: someone selling bitsavers cd's on ebay? > > Thing is, the negative feedback is back in 2004! Since then > it seems positive. And I don't see what "she" was selling back in '04. > > If it's rip-offs from bitsavers, well then I have a problem. > OTOH, if "she" has been scanning her own collection, then 1) > why the hell isn't she a member here? ...and... 2) it's her > problem dealing with copyright owners. > > Vern > > --- On Sat, 1/24/09, Rik Bos wrote: > > > From: Rik Bos > > Subject: RE: someone selling bitsavers cd's on ebay? > > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > > > > Date: Saturday, January 24, 2009, 9:53 AM A copy from the feedback > > she's getting... > > *BEWARE* Sells photo-copies of vintage items & claims they are very > > rare !!! > > the answer : > > If you cannot find a copy of something then it is rare, ask > > b4 buying moron > > !!!! > > > > Says something about the seller..... > > > > I think it's a opportunistic persoon with a short of cash.... > > Couldn't be a list member. > > > > -Rik > > > > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > > > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Jim > > Battle > > > Verzonden: zaterdag 24 januari 2009 18:21 > > > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > Onderwerp: someone selling bitsavers cd's on ebay? > > > > > > I just noticed this: > > > > > > http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZmariamarkham > > > > > > Considering some of the odd groupings (eg DIGITAL > > EQUIPMENT > > > CORPORATION AND OSBORNE DOCUMENTS), it seems like this > > person > > > is perhaps not putting a lot of effort into this or > > isn't > > > knowledgeable. And if they aren't either of > > those, what are > > > the odds they'd bother collecting and scanning > > these materials? > > > > > > On the one hand you can argue: they are just offering > > a > > > service for people who can't download large > > volumes of > > > documents. On the other hand, all of us are skating > > on some > > > thin ice by scanning copyrighted material in the hopes > > that > > > nobody really cares. It seems like a bad precedent > > for > > > someone to be selling them for profit. > > > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 24 12:36:19 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 10:36:19 -0800 Subject: someone selling bitsavers cd's on ebay? In-Reply-To: <181202.50636.qm@web65513.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: , <181202.50636.qm@web65513.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <497AEF23.25069.4D0B58F0@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Jan 2009 at 10:17, Vernon Wright wrote: > Thing is, the negative feedback is back in 2004! Since then it seems > positive. And I don't see what "she" was selling back in '04. > > If it's rip-offs from bitsavers, well then I have a problem. OTOH, if > "she" has been scanning her own collection, then 1) why the hell isn't > she a member here? ...and... 2) it's her problem dealing with > copyright owners. I noticed the same thing. Probably just a tempest in a teapot--it's not clear that she's sold *anything* in the last 4 years. I suspect those in need of antique computer doucmentation know how to use The Google. Cheers, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jan 24 12:49:34 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 13:49:34 -0500 Subject: HP IIISi: "50 SERVICE" In-Reply-To: <200901240950.EAA17639@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <889053.98289.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <804239.42485.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200901220935.EAA03427@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <200901240950.EAA17639@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Jan 24, 2009, at 4:45 AM, der Mouse wrote: >> Back in June (2008), I wrote about my HP IIISi laser printer >> complaining "50 SERVICE". [...] > > Today I picked up a new fuser and replaced it, and now it works. > > However, there's a vertical line of what I can perhaps best > describe as > fog on every page. Last time I had something of the sort, replacing > the toner cartridge (which includes a roller of some sort) fixed > it. I > slid the door over the roller open and the fog is visible on the > roller > too. Perhaps interestingly, this fog was not present on the first few > pages printed (which were test pages); it showed up while I was > printing "real data". So, the fog on the drum is a scratch, or are you saying that there's a toner image of the fog on the drum? Use a piece of tissue and (very!) carefully wipe at it to see if it comes off. If it doesn't, then the drum is screwed, which (on most printers) means the cartridge is screwed. If it does, then there may be a piece of crap on one of the corona wires. There's a slot that runs the width of the toner cartridge that is covered on the inside by a flexible piece of black plastic film. Use the corona wire cleaner (the green thing with the felt tip) and stick it in there in the obvious way, and run it back and forth a few times. > Also, the thing is giving me a lot of paper jams with the page > stuck in > the paper path after the fuser - sometimes they register as internal > jams, sometimes as output jams. It's not consistent, but frequent > enough to be annoying. Any ideas what could be causing that? There could be something sticky on the fuser roller. On these printers, there is (or should be) a white felt pad stuck to a plastic frame that sits atop the fuser roller and wipes it as it rotates. Most people never bothered with that pad, to their detriment...you're supposed to change it when you change the toner cartridge, and new toner cartridges (usually) come with one. That pad is saturated with fuser oil; it cleans and lubricates the fuser. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 24 12:55:05 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 10:55:05 -0800 Subject: Help identifying a big ol' drive platter In-Reply-To: <200901241313.41491.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <497852F6.2070701@mail.msu.edu>, <497A9F2E.20004@mail.msu.edu>, <200901241313.41491.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <497AF389.7236.4D1C7FBF@cclist.sydex.com> On 24 Jan 2009 at 13:13, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Wow, how sixties...! :-) > > I especially like that pic of the unit with the cover off on page 5. Bitsavers has the manual for the 6603 controller: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/cdc/6x00/60334000_6603DiskControl.pdf (about 500K) I was wrong on the speed (mental bit rot)--it's 900 RPM, not 600. Still darned slow in comparison to 70's technology. Every once in awhile these Bryants would spring a leak in the hydraulics. I once witnessed an operator hit the pool of fluid on the floor (pydraul?) at a dead run. It was pretty funny. Cheers. Chuck From halarewich at gmail.com Sat Jan 24 12:58:50 2009 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 10:58:50 -0800 Subject: HP IIISi: "50 SERVICE" In-Reply-To: <05f801c97e3e$5c5a1750$46fea8c0@DeskJara> References: <889053.98289.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <804239.42485.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200901220935.EAA03427@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <497AEE83.9010601@e-bbes.com> <05f801c97e3e$5c5a1750$46fea8c0@DeskJara> Message-ID: <6d6501090901241058rb615e2en38c639532072c18f@mail.gmail.com> when i go to that page it says domain for sale On 1/24/09, Alexandre Souza wrote: > > Today I finally collected the round tuits to check it out - and yes, >>> the fuser "lamp" has failed open-circuit. Fortunately, a month or two >>> back I spoke with an printer repair tech who came to service a printer >>> at work; he gave me contact info for the place he gets replacements for >>> such things, so I'm set in that respect. >>> >> Just publish if you find a good address. I saw this message on my >> printer (4mx?) too, so I'm proably next ;-) >> > > www.repair-printer.com comes to mind. excellent service! > > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Jan 24 13:14:30 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 11:14:30 -0800 Subject: HP IIISi: "50 SERVICE" In-Reply-To: References: <889053.98289.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <804239.42485.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200901220935.EAA03427@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <200901240950.EAA17639@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > From: mcguire at neurotica.com ---snip--- > > If it doesn't, then the drum is screwed, which (on most printers) > means the cartridge is screwed. If it does, then there may be a > piece of crap on one of the corona wires. There's a slot that runs > the width of the toner cartridge that is covered on the inside by a > flexible piece of black plastic film. Use the corona wire cleaner > (the green thing with the felt tip) and stick it in there in the > obvious way, and run it back and forth a few times. > Hi There isn't the normal corona wire in the III si. Like I mentioned in my mail, it is replaced by the PCR in that printer. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Hotmail? goes where you go. On a PC, on the Web, on your phone. http://www.windowslive-hotmail.com/learnmore/versatility.aspx#mobile?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_WL_HM_versatility_121208 From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Sat Jan 24 14:00:18 2009 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 12:00:18 -0800 Subject: someone selling bitsavers cd's on ebay? References: <497B4DFE.9060104@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <000e01c97e5e$61aa34e0$0201a8c0@hal9000> Jim, As a seller, her feedback is only THREE and two of those are NEGATIVE. That should be all we need to know. Best regards, Steven ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Battle" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2009 9:21 AM Subject: someone selling bitsavers cd's on ebay? > I just noticed this: > > http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZmariamarkham > > Considering some of the odd groupings (eg DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORPORATION > AND OSBORNE DOCUMENTS), it seems like this person is perhaps not putting > a lot of effort into this or isn't knowledgeable. And if they aren't > either of those, what are the odds they'd bother collecting and scanning > these materials? > > On the one hand you can argue: they are just offering a service for > people who can't download large volumes of documents. On the other > hand, all of us are skating on some thin ice by scanning copyrighted > material in the hopes that nobody really cares. It seems like a bad > precedent for someone to be selling them for profit. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 24 12:45:43 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 18:45:43 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp In-Reply-To: from "Dave McGuire" at Jan 23, 9 05:03:13 pm Message-ID: [Alcohol damaging plastics] > HPDL-1414, I've used a few in projects here. They're damn nice > displays. The datasheet mentions nothing about alcohol, though. Hmmm.. I was pretty sure it was those displays where the data sheet specifically mentioned not cleaning them with alcohol, but I could well be mistaken. I was using these over 25 years ago, and there are 2 other posibilities. Firstly, they may have changed the plastic over the years so the more recent ones are not attacked by alcohol (that might also apply to dot matrix versions, etc). The other is that I got my displays from RS components in the UK, and they produced their own data sheet for the ones they sold (I think just the 1414 and 2416), and it may have contained the warning about alcohol. I still have that data sheet _somehwere_ , if I come across it I'll check. -tony From brian at quarterbyte.com Sat Jan 24 15:54:59 2009 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (Brian Knittel) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 13:54:59 -0800 Subject: someone selling bitsavers cd's on ebay? Message-ID: <497B1DB3.9419.130D58F3@brian.quarterbyte.com> My favorite is the one covering the "APPOLO GUIDANCE COMPUTER" and "An emulator that simulates a hole host of different computers". From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Jan 24 04:59:48 2009 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 05:59:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: HP IIISi: "50 SERVICE" In-Reply-To: <497AEE83.9010601@e-bbes.com> References: <889053.98289.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <804239.42485.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200901220935.EAA03427@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <497AEE83.9010601@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <200901241102.GAA18164@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Fortunately, a month or two back I spoke with an printer repair tech >> who came to service a printer at work; he gave me contact info for >> the place he gets replacements for such things, so I'm set in that >> respect. > Just publish if you find a good address. 5000 d'Iberville. (I don't expect this to be much use to you, since you're probably not in Montreal, but you asked. I conjecture you were expecting a webpage or some such...but I don't buy "online". At all.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Jan 24 15:00:20 2009 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 16:00:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: HP IIISi: "50 SERVICE" In-Reply-To: References: <889053.98289.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <804239.42485.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200901220935.EAA03427@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <200901240950.EAA17639@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <200901242118.QAA20882@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Thank you all for your great help! [Dave McGuire, quoting me] >> However, there's a vertical line of what I can perhaps best describe >> as fog on every page. [...] Perhaps interestingly, this fog was >> not present on the first few pages printed > So, the fog on the drum is a scratch, No; its physical extent is not as well-defined as a scratch is, and it is (statistically) uniform under vertical translation, not repeating with a well-defined period the way a scratch does. > or are you saying that there's a toner image of the fog on the drum? Yes. When I open the door over the roller, there are bands of fog wrapped around the drum, in places that correspond to the fog on the printouts. > Use a piece of tissue and (very!) carefully wipe at it to see if it > comes off. > If it doesn't, then the drum is screwed, It wipes off readily, and the stuff that wipes off looks like, well, toner powder. But when I then put the cartridge back in and print a test page, there is no recurring gap in the fog; apparently the cleaned-off space didn't stay clean long enough to show on the page. [dwight elvey] > There is also a [scraper] that can fail. If it gets junk in it, it > will let toner get by and contaminate the PCR. It is a self > intensifying process. That matches the symptoms. I'll try opening the toner cartridge and cleaning off the PCR and the wiper blade - I could wreck it, I suppose, but if my alternative is to get a new cartridge anyway... :) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Jan 25 10:07:15 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 11:07:15 -0500 Subject: Thrift store score: HP LJ4L Message-ID: After years of looking at an HP LJ4L I got at the Uni surplus that someone had removed the fuser from, I found a nearly-unused 4L at the nearby thrift store yesterday. It printed the test page without a burp, but was on the shelf without a price. I found someone to get it priced and walked out a happy customer $6 later. The only thing it's missing is a right-angle IEC power cord to fit behind the access door, but it works well enough with a straight-in cable. -ethan From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sun Jan 25 10:15:10 2009 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 11:15:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: Thrift store score: HP LJ4L In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 25 Jan 2009, Ethan Dicks wrote: > After years of looking at an HP LJ4L I got at the Uni surplus that > someone had removed the fuser from, I found a nearly-unused 4L at the > nearby thrift store yesterday. It printed the test page without a > burp, but was on the shelf without a price. I found someone to get it > priced and walked out a happy customer $6 later. I had pretty much given up on finding interesting vintage electronics at Goodwill, but I also made a good score last summer: a Data General LDM-800 line matrix printer for $4.95 (half-price day). There's not a thing wrong with it, after a couple of alignment procedures. They actually had two of them, but I only had room for one. :-) Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jan 25 10:26:19 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 11:26:19 -0500 Subject: HP IIISi: "50 SERVICE" In-Reply-To: References: <889053.98289.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <804239.42485.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200901220935.EAA03427@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <200901240950.EAA17639@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Jan 24, 2009, at 2:14 PM, dwight elvey wrote: >> If it doesn't, then the drum is screwed, which (on most printers) >> means the cartridge is screwed. If it does, then there may be a >> piece of crap on one of the corona wires. There's a slot that runs >> the width of the toner cartridge that is covered on the inside by a >> flexible piece of black plastic film. Use the corona wire cleaner >> (the green thing with the felt tip) and stick it in there in the >> obvious way, and run it back and forth a few times. >> > Hi > There isn't the normal corona wire in the III si. Like I > mentioned in my mail, it is replaced by the PCR in that > printer. Ahhhh, I must've missed the "Si" part somehow. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From vern4wright at yahoo.com Sun Jan 25 11:43:14 2009 From: vern4wright at yahoo.com (Vernon Wright) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 09:43:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: Thrift store score: HP LJ4L In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <431838.91257.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> You are lucky; the thrift stores I inhabit here in San Diego won't sell if there isn't a price tag. They hold it to the next day and price it overnight...which is a BIG bore if I really want it and have to come back the next day - which won't be seniors 50% off day, of course :) The coup I recall is the TI microLaser Win/4 I picked up at a thrift store closing for a dollar. It had been at $7, and $15 before that; I figured I could take a chance at a cuppa coffee price. It was incompatible with Linux, and Windoze except for 95 AND XP! Funny that long list of releases no one ever wrote a driver for, and then to do it for XP. Anyway, it had a good toner and innards and has served perfectly well for about three years. Vern Wright --- On Sun, 1/25/09, Ethan Dicks wrote: > From: Ethan Dicks > Subject: Thrift store score: HP LJ4L > To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org > Date: Sunday, January 25, 2009, 8:07 AM > After years of looking at an HP LJ4L I got at the Uni > surplus that > someone had removed the fuser from, I found a nearly-unused > 4L at the > nearby thrift store yesterday. It printed the test page > without a > burp, but was on the shelf without a price. I found > someone to get it > priced and walked out a happy customer $6 later. > > The only thing it's missing is a right-angle IEC power > cord to fit > behind the access door, but it works well enough with a > straight-in > cable. > > -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Jan 25 11:45:58 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 12:45:58 -0500 Subject: Thrift store score: HP LJ4L In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 25, 2009 at 11:15 AM, Mike Loewen wrote: > On Sun, 25 Jan 2009, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> ... I found a nearly-unused 4L at the nearby thrift store yesterday. > > I had pretty much given up on finding interesting vintage electronics at > Goodwill... Mostly, I find calculators or 1970s clocks, but not much in the area of on-topic electronics at thrifts in Columbus, but I had some really good luck with older stuff at St Vincent DePaul's in Madison over the past 5 years (I just dug out that all-LED clock that I need to refurb - 100-ish submini LEDs and a double-fistful of CMOS 4000-series parts). The closest thing I've seen lately is a Bondi-blue original iMac for way too much, but then they seem to get $150 for an eMachine, which boggles me. > ...but I also made a good score last summer: a Data General LDM-800 > line matrix printer for $4.95 (half-price day). There's not a thing wrong > with it, after a couple of alignment procedures. They actually had two of > them, but I only had room for one. :-) Interesting. We never get stuff like that at our thrifts. I presume industrial stuff gets recycled in other ways. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Jan 25 11:48:00 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 12:48:00 -0500 Subject: Thrift store score: HP LJ4L In-Reply-To: <431838.91257.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <431838.91257.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 25, 2009 at 12:43 PM, Vernon Wright wrote: > You are lucky; the thrift stores I inhabit here in San Diego won't sell if there isn't a price tag. They hold it to the next day and price it overnight...which is a BIG bore if I really want it and have to come back the next day - which won't be seniors 50% off day, of course :) Normally that's my experience, too, but this place has a large back room, so they aren't supposed to set things out unpriced and price them later. I do consider myself lucky that they priced it while I waited. Perhaps it was because it was on the shelf with two dozen printers and scanners and they didn't have any spare room on the shelf to let it wait. -ethan From shoppa at trailing-edge.com Sun Jan 25 12:18:08 2009 From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 13:18:08 -0500 Subject: someone selling bitsavers cd's on ebay? In-Reply-To: <200901251800.n0PI0AAx002750@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901251800.n0PI0AAx002750@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20090125181808.89E70BA5152@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> > On the one hand you can argue: they are just offering > a > service for people who can't download large > volumes of > documents. On the other hand, all of us are skating > on some > thin ice by scanning copyrighted material in the hopes > that > nobody really cares. It seems like a bad precedent > for > someone to be selling them for profit. > Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James > M Dakin > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 19:36:06 +0100 > From: "Rik Bos" > Subject: RE: someone selling bitsavers cd's on ebay? > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > > Message-ID: <8981EED805C74877B576A25B84552268 at xp1800> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > 'She' got three times feedback as seller two were negative ! > She seems to be a good buyer .. > > Well I'm not spending my money on 'her' items with bitsavers and other > sources around ;-) > > -Rik > > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Vernon Wright > > Verzonden: zaterdag 24 januari 2009 19:18 > > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Onderwerp: RE: someone selling bitsavers cd's on ebay? > > > > Thing is, the negative feedback is back in 2004! Since then > > it seems positive. And I don't see what "she" was selling back in '04. > > > > If it's rip-offs from bitsavers, well then I have a problem. > > OTOH, if "she" has been scanning her own collection, then 1) > > why the hell isn't she a member here? ...and... 2) it's her > > problem dealing with copyright owners. > > > > Vern > > > > --- On Sat, 1/24/09, Rik Bos wrote: > > > > > From: Rik Bos > > > Subject: RE: someone selling bitsavers cd's on ebay? > > > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > > > > > > Date: Saturday, January 24, 2009, 9:53 AM A copy from the feedback > > > she's getting... > > > *BEWARE* Sells photo-copies of vintage items & claims they are very > > > rare !!! > > > the answer : > > > If you cannot find a copy of something then it is rare, ask > > > b4 buying moron > > > !!!! > > > > > > Says something about the seller..... > > > > > > I think it's a opportunistic persoon with a short of cash.... > > > Couldn't be a list member. > > > > > > -Rik > > > > > > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > > > > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > > > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Jim > > > Battle > > > > Verzonden: zaterdag 24 januari 2009 18:21 > > > > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > Onderwerp: someone selling bitsavers cd's on ebay? > > > > > > > > I just noticed this: > > > > > > > > http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZmariamarkham > > > > > > > > Considering some of the odd groupings (eg DIGITAL > > > EQUIPMENT > > > > CORPORATION AND OSBORNE DOCUMENTS), it seems like this > > > person > > > > is perhaps not putting a lot of effort into this or > > > isn't > > > > knowledgeable. And if they aren't either of > > > those, what are > > > > the odds they'd bother collecting and scanning > > > these materials? > > > > > > > > On the one hand you can argue: they are just offering > > > a > > > > service for people who can't download large > > > volumes of > > > > documents. On the other hand, all of us are skating > > > on some > > > > thin ice by scanning copyrighted material in the hopes > > > that > > > > nobody really cares. It seems like a bad precedent > > > for > > > > someone to be selling them for profit. > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 10:36:19 -0800 > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Subject: RE: someone selling bitsavers cd's on ebay? > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <497AEF23.25069.4D0B58F0 at cclist.sydex.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > On 24 Jan 2009 at 10:17, Vernon Wright wrote: > > > Thing is, the negative feedback is back in 2004! Since then it seems > > positive. And I don't see what "she" was selling back in '04. > > > > If it's rip-offs from bitsavers, well then I have a problem. OTOH, if > > "she" has been scanning her own collection, then 1) why the hell isn't > > she a member here? ...and... 2) it's her problem dealing with > > copyright owners. > > I noticed the same thing. Probably just a tempest in a teapot--it's > not clear that she's sold *anything* in the last 4 years. I suspect > those in need of antique computer doucmentation know how to use The > Google. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 13:49:34 -0500 > From: Dave McGuire > Subject: Re: HP IIISi: "50 SERVICE" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" , > der Mouse > Cc: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > > On Jan 24, 2009, at 4:45 AM, der Mouse wrote: > >> Back in June (2008), I wrote about my HP IIISi laser printer > >> complaining "50 SERVICE". [...] > > > > Today I picked up a new fuser and replaced it, and now it works. > > > > However, there's a vertical line of what I can perhaps best > > describe as > > fog on every page. Last time I had something of the sort, replacing > > the toner cartridge (which includes a roller of some sort) fixed > > it. I > > slid the door over the roller open and the fog is visible on the > > roller > > too. Perhaps interestingly, this fog was not present on the first few > > pages printed (which were test pages); it showed up while I was > > printing "real data". > > So, the fog on the drum is a scratch, or are you saying that > there's a toner image of the fog on the drum? Use a piece of tissue > and (very!) carefully wipe at it to see if it comes off. > > If it doesn't, then the drum is screwed, which (on most printers) > means the cartridge is screwed. If it does, then there may be a > piece of crap on one of the corona wires. There's a slot that runs > the width of the toner cartridge that is covered on the inside by a > flexible piece of black plastic film. Use the corona wire cleaner > (the green thing with the felt tip) and stick it in there in the > obvious way, and run it back and forth a few times. > > > Also, the thing is giving me a lot of paper jams with the page > > stuck in > > the paper path after the fuser - sometimes they register as internal > > jams, sometimes as output jams. It's not consistent, but frequent > > enough to be annoying. Any ideas what could be causing that? > > There could be something sticky on the fuser roller. On these > printers, there is (or should be) a white felt pad stuck to a plastic > frame that sits atop the fuser roller and wipes it as it rotates. > Most people never bothered with that pad, to their detriment...you're > supposed to change it when you change the toner cartridge, and new > toner cartridges (usually) come with one. That pad is saturated with > fuser oil; it cleans and lubricates the fuser. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 10:55:05 -0800 > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Subject: Re: Help identifying a big ol' drive platter > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <497AF389.7236.4D1C7FBF at cclist.sydex.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > On 24 Jan 2009 at 13:13, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > > Wow, how sixties...! :-) > > > > I especially like that pic of the unit with the cover off on page 5. > > Bitsavers has the manual for the 6603 controller: > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/cdc/6x00/60334000_6603DiskControl.pdf > > (about 500K) > > I was wrong on the speed (mental bit rot)--it's 900 RPM, not 600. > Still darned slow in comparison to 70's technology. > > Every once in awhile these Bryants would spring a leak in the > hydraulics. I once witnessed an operator hit the pool of fluid on > the floor (pydraul?) at a dead run. It was pretty funny. > > Cheers. > Chuck > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 8 > Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 10:58:50 -0800 > From: Chris Halarewich > Subject: Re: HP IIISi: "50 SERVICE" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > <6d6501090901241058rb615e2en38c639532072c18f at mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > when i go to that page it says domain for sale > > On 1/24/09, Alexandre Souza wrote: > > > > Today I finally collected the round tuits to check it out - and yes, > >>> the fuser "lamp" has failed open-circuit. Fortunately, a month or two > >>> back I spoke with an printer repair tech who came to service a printer > >>> at work; he gave me contact info for the place he gets replacements for > >>> such things, so I'm set in that respect. > >>> > >> Just publish if you find a good address. I saw this message on my > >> printer (4mx?) too, so I'm proably next ;-) > >> > > > > www.repair-printer.com comes to mind. excellent service! > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 9 > Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 11:14:30 -0800 > From: dwight elvey > Subject: RE: HP IIISi: "50 SERVICE" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > > > > ---------------------------------------- > > From: mcguire at neurotica.com > ---snip--- > > > > If it doesn't, then the drum is screwed, which (on most printers) > > means the cartridge is screwed. If it does, then there may be a > > piece of crap on one of the corona wires. There's a slot that runs > > the width of the toner cartridge that is covered on the inside by a > > flexible piece of black plastic film. Use the corona wire cleaner > > (the green thing with the felt tip) and stick it in there in the > > obvious way, and run it back and forth a few times. > > > > Hi > There isn't the normal corona wire in the III si. Like I > mentioned in my mail, it is replaced by the PCR in that > printer. > Dwight > > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail? goes where you go. On a PC, on the Web, on your phone. > http://www.windowslive-hotmail.com/learnmore/versatility.aspx#mobile?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_WL_HM_versatility_121208 > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 10 > Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 12:00:18 -0800 > From: "Scanning" > Subject: Re: someone selling bitsavers cd's on ebay? > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <000e01c97e5e$61aa34e0$0201a8c0 at hal9000> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > > Jim, > > As a seller, her feedback is only THREE and two of those are NEGATIVE. That > should be all we need to know. > > Best regards, Steven > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jim Battle" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Saturday, January 24, 2009 9:21 AM > Subject: someone selling bitsavers cd's on ebay? > > > > I just noticed this: > > > > http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZmariamarkham > > > > Considering some of the odd groupings (eg DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORPORATION > > AND OSBORNE DOCUMENTS), it seems like this person is perhaps not putting > > a lot of effort into this or isn't knowledgeable. And if they aren't > > either of those, what are the odds they'd bother collecting and scanning > > these materials? > > > > On the one hand you can argue: they are just offering a service for > > people who can't download large volumes of documents. On the other > > hand, all of us are skating on some thin ice by scanning copyrighted > > material in the hopes that nobody really cares. It seems like a bad > > precedent for someone to be selling them for profit. > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 11 > Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 18:45:43 +0000 (GMT) > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Subject: Re: Wall warts; was: hams on classiccmp > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain > > [Alcohol damaging plastics] > > > HPDL-1414, I've used a few in projects here. They're damn nice > > displays. The datasheet mentions nothing about alcohol, though. > > Hmmm.. I was pretty sure it was those displays where the data sheet > specifically mentioned not cleaning them with alcohol, but I could well > be mistaken. > > I was using these over 25 years ago, and there are 2 other posibilities. > Firstly, they may have changed the plastic over the years so the more > recent ones are not attacked by alcohol (that might also apply to dot > matrix versions, etc). The other is that I got my displays from RS > components in the UK, and they produced their own data sheet for the ones > they sold (I think just the 1414 and 2416), and it may have contained the > warning about alcohol. I still have that data sheet _somehwere_ , if I > come across it I'll check. > > -tony > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 12 > Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 13:54:59 -0800 > From: "Brian Knittel" > Subject: Re: someone selling bitsavers cd's on ebay? > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <497B1DB3.9419.130D58F3 at brian.quarterbyte.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII > > My favorite is the one covering the "APPOLO GUIDANCE COMPUTER" > and "An emulator that simulates a hole host of different computers". > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 13 > Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 05:59:48 -0500 (EST) > From: der Mouse > Subject: Re: HP IIISi: "50 SERVICE" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <200901241102.GAA18164 at Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > >> Fortunately, a month or two back I spoke with an printer repair tech > >> who came to service a printer at work; he gave me contact info for > >> the place he gets replacements for such things, so I'm set in that > >> respect. > > Just publish if you find a good address. > > 5000 d'Iberville. (I don't expect this to be much use to you, since > you're probably not in Montreal, but you asked. I conjecture you were > expecting a webpage or some such...but I don't buy "online". At all.) > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 14 > Date: Sat, 24 Jan 2009 16:00:20 -0500 (EST) > From: der Mouse > Subject: Re: HP IIISi: "50 SERVICE" > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: <200901242118.QAA20882 at Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Thank you all for your great help! > > [Dave McGuire, quoting me] > >> However, there's a vertical line of what I can perhaps best describe > >> as fog on every page. [...] Perhaps interestingly, this fog was > >> not present on the first few pages printed > > So, the fog on the drum is a scratch, > > No; its physical extent is not as well-defined as a scratch is, and it > is (statistically) uniform under vertical translation, not repeating > with a well-defined period the way a scratch does. > > > or are you saying that there's a toner image of the fog on the drum? > > Yes. When I open the door over the roller, there are bands of fog > wrapped around the drum, in places that correspond to the fog on the > printouts. > > > Use a piece of tissue and (very!) carefully wipe at it to see if it > > comes off. > > > If it doesn't, then the drum is screwed, > > It wipes off readily, and the stuff that wipes off looks like, well, > toner powder. But when I then put the cartridge back in and print a > test page, there is no recurring gap in the fog; apparently the > cleaned-off space didn't stay clean long enough to show on the page. > > [dwight elvey] > > There is also a [scraper] that can fail. If it gets junk in it, it > > will let toner get by and contaminate the PCR. It is a self > > intensifying process. > > That matches the symptoms. I'll try opening the toner cartridge and > cleaning off the PCR and the wiper blade - I could wreck it, I suppose, > but if my alternative is to get a new cartridge anyway... :) > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 15 > Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 11:07:15 -0500 > From: Ethan Dicks > Subject: Thrift store score: HP LJ4L > To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > After years of looking at an HP LJ4L I got at the Uni surplus that > someone had removed the fuser from, I found a nearly-unused 4L at the > nearby thrift store yesterday. It printed the test page without a > burp, but was on the shelf without a price. I found someone to get it > priced and walked out a happy customer $6 later. > > The only thing it's missing is a right-angle IEC power cord to fit > behind the access door, but it works well enough with a straight-in > cable. > > -ethan > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 16 > Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 11:15:10 -0500 (EST) > From: Mike Loewen > Subject: Re: Thrift store score: HP LJ4L > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > On Sun, 25 Jan 2009, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > After years of looking at an HP LJ4L I got at the Uni surplus that > > someone had removed the fuser from, I found a nearly-unused 4L at the > > nearby thrift store yesterday. It printed the test page without a > > burp, but was on the shelf without a price. I found someone to get it > > priced and walked out a happy customer $6 later. > > I had pretty much given up on finding interesting vintage electronics > at Goodwill, but I also made a good score last summer: a Data General > LDM-800 line matrix printer for $4.95 (half-price day). There's not a > thing wrong with it, after a couple of alignment procedures. They > actually had two of them, but I only had room for one. :-) > > > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 17 > Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 11:26:19 -0500 > From: Dave McGuire > Subject: Re: HP IIISi: "50 SERVICE" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed > > On Jan 24, 2009, at 2:14 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > >> If it doesn't, then the drum is screwed, which (on most printers) > >> means the cartridge is screwed. If it does, then there may be a > >> piece of crap on one of the corona wires. There's a slot that runs > >> the width of the toner cartridge that is covered on the inside by a > >> flexible piece of black plastic film. Use the corona wire cleaner > >> (the green thing with the felt tip) and stick it in there in the > >> obvious way, and run it back and forth a few times. > >> > > Hi > > There isn't the normal corona wire in the III si. Like I > > mentioned in my mail, it is replaced by the PCR in that > > printer. > > Ahhhh, I must've missed the "Si" part somehow. > > -Dave > > -- > Dave McGuire > Port Charlotte, FL > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 18 > Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 09:43:14 -0800 (PST) > From: Vernon Wright > Subject: Re: Thrift store score: HP LJ4L > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: <431838.91257.qm at web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > You are lucky; the thrift stores I inhabit here in San Diego won't sell if there isn't a price tag. They hold it to the next day and price it overnight...which is a BIG bore if I really want it and have to come back the next day - which won't be seniors 50% off day, of course :) > > The coup I recall is the TI microLaser Win/4 I picked up at a thrift store closing for a dollar. It had been at $7, and $15 before that; I figured I could take a chance at a cuppa coffee price. It was incompatible with Linux, and Windoze except for 95 AND XP! Funny that long list of releases no one ever wrote a driver for, and then to do it for XP. Anyway, it had a good toner and innards and has served perfectly well for about three years. > > Vern Wright > > --- On Sun, 1/25/09, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > From: Ethan Dicks > > Subject: Thrift store score: HP LJ4L > > To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org > > Date: Sunday, January 25, 2009, 8:07 AM > > After years of looking at an HP LJ4L I got at the Uni > > surplus that > > someone had removed the fuser from, I found a nearly-unused > > 4L at the > > nearby thrift store yesterday. It printed the test page > > without a > > burp, but was on the shelf without a price. I found > > someone to get it > > priced and walked out a happy customer $6 later. > > > > The only thing it's missing is a right-angle IEC power > > cord to fit > > behind the access door, but it works well enough with a > > straight-in > > cable. > > > > -ethan > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 19 > Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 12:45:58 -0500 > From: Ethan Dicks > Subject: Re: Thrift store score: HP LJ4L > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On Sun, Jan 25, 2009 at 11:15 AM, Mike Loewen > wrote: > > On Sun, 25 Jan 2009, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > >> ... I found a nearly-unused 4L at the nearby thrift store yesterday. > > > > I had pretty much given up on finding interesting vintage electronics at > > Goodwill... > > Mostly, I find calculators or 1970s clocks, but not much in the area > of on-topic electronics at thrifts in Columbus, but I had some really > good luck with older stuff at St Vincent DePaul's in Madison over the > past 5 years (I just dug out that all-LED clock that I need to refurb > - 100-ish submini LEDs and a double-fistful of CMOS 4000-series > parts). > > The closest thing I've seen lately is a Bondi-blue original iMac for > way too much, but then they seem to get $150 for an eMachine, which > boggles me. > > > ...but I also made a good score last summer: a Data General LDM-800 > > line matrix printer for $4.95 (half-price day). There's not a thing wrong > > with it, after a couple of alignment procedures. They actually had two of > > them, but I only had room for one. :-) > > Interesting. We never get stuff like that at our thrifts. I presume > industrial stuff gets recycled in other ways. > > -ethan > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 20 > Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 12:48:00 -0500 > From: Ethan Dicks > Subject: Re: Thrift store score: HP LJ4L > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > On Sun, Jan 25, 2009 at 12:43 PM, Vernon Wright wrote: > > You are lucky; the thrift stores I inhabit here in San Diego won't sell if there isn't a price tag. They hold it to the next day and price it overnight...which is a BIG bore if I really want it and have to come back the next day - which won't be seniors 50% off day, of course :) > > Normally that's my experience, too, but this place has a large back > room, so they aren't supposed to set things out unpriced and price > them later. I do consider myself lucky that they priced it while I > waited. Perhaps it was because it was on the shelf with two dozen > printers and scanners and they didn't have any spare room on the shelf > to let it wait. > > -ethan > > > > End of cctalk Digest, Vol 65, Issue 57 > ************************************** From shoppa at trailing-edge.com Sun Jan 25 12:28:39 2009 From: shoppa at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 13:28:39 -0500 Subject: someone selling bitsavers cd's on ebay? In-Reply-To: <200901251800.n0PI0AAx002750@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901251800.n0PI0AAx002750@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20090125182839.5AD1EBA5157@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Subject: RE: someone selling bitsavers cd's on ebay? > On the one hand you can argue: they are just offering > a service for people who can't download large > volumes of > documents. On the other hand, all of us are skating > on some > thin ice by scanning copyrighted material in the hopes > that > nobody really cares. It seems like a bad precedent > for > someone to be selling them for profit. > Subject: RE: someone selling bitsavers cd's on ebay? The way I see it, the worst possible example of what might happened has already happened: someone bought, via an E-bay auction, the rights to all Heathkit manuals and then threatened legal action against every single archive of scanned Heath material on the web, causing them all to shut down. I'm not saying that anything illegal happened, just that the end result is a damned shame. I have a lot of Heath stuff, and while I happened to have the original 40 or 50 year old manuals with much of it, most of the original manuals are in pretty sad physical shape today. I would use the scans on the web in preference to the physical manual because I was afraid more of the pages would fall out or even worse, the fold-out schematics would disintegrate more. Tim. From frustum at pacbell.net Sun Jan 25 14:18:20 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 14:18:20 -0600 Subject: AFIPS Press Message-ID: <497CC90C.50503@pacbell.net> First, the questions: does anybody know what happened to AFIPS Press? Next, the background: I bought a used AFIPS 1979 Conference Proceedings (Vol 48) of the National Computer Conference. I bought it for a single article. I'd like to scan and post that article online. Although I've scanned other material and put it online, I know ACM and IEEE are still very protective of even 40 year old publications, as they actively sell reprints online (some of which I've bought). This is a meaningful revenue stream to them. This is from the front of the book: (c) 1979 by AFIPS Press. Copying is permitted without payment of royalty provided that (1) each reproduction is done without alteration and (2) reference to the AFIPS Proceedings and notice of copyright are included on the first page. The title and abstract may be used without further permission in computer-based and other information-service systems. Permission to republish other excerpts should be obtained from AFIPS Press. It seems like putting it on a webpage is more akin to republishing it than it is copying it. I'd be more than happy to add the necessary credits to the scanned document, but that might not cut it. My first thought was to contact them and ask permission to publish this one article. Despite an hour of googling, I can't find what happened to them. Do they still exist (I haven't seen anything with a recent date published by them)? Did they get folded into ACM or IEEE? They used to be located at 210 Summit Avenue, Montvale, NJ 07645. If I enter that address into google maps, it reports about 20 businesses, none of them AFIPS Press. The Montvale New Jersey Business Directory doesn't list AFIPS Press either. From tpeters at mixcom.com Sun Jan 25 14:32:44 2009 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 14:32:44 -0600 Subject: Thrift store score: HP LJ4L In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20090125143204.0bbf6158@localhost> At 11:07 AM 1/25/2009 -0500, you wrote: >After years of looking at an HP LJ4L I got at the Uni surplus that >someone had removed the fuser from, I found a nearly-unused 4L at the This is valuable? My HP 4L is still in active use! ----- 435. [Humor] I stayed in a really old hotel last night. They sent me a wake-up letter. --Steven Wright --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From fryers at gmail.com Sun Jan 25 14:54:25 2009 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 20:54:25 +0000 Subject: AFIPS Press In-Reply-To: <497CC90C.50503@pacbell.net> References: <497CC90C.50503@pacbell.net> Message-ID: G'Day, 2009/1/25 Jim Battle : > First, the questions: does anybody know what happened to AFIPS Press? Sorry. > Next, the background: > > I bought a used AFIPS 1979 Conference Proceedings (Vol 48) of the National > Computer Conference. I bought it for a single article. > > I'd like to scan and post that article online. Although I've scanned other > material and put it online, I know ACM and IEEE are still very protective of > even 40 year old publications, as they actively sell reprints online (some > of which I've bought). This is a meaningful revenue stream to them. I have checked the IEEE web site and I can not find any references to this directly. The closest I get is references to a computer conference within the "Computer" periodical. Any chance you can list the titles and authors of any of the papers? [chomp] Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Jan 25 15:04:58 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 16:04:58 -0500 Subject: Thrift store score: HP LJ4L In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20090125143204.0bbf6158@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20090125143204.0bbf6158@localhost> Message-ID: <200901251604.58260.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 25 January 2009 03:32:44 pm Tom Peters wrote: > At 11:07 AM 1/25/2009 -0500, you wrote: > >After years of looking at an HP LJ4L I got at the Uni surplus that > >someone had removed the fuser from, I found a nearly-unused 4L at the > > This is valuable? My HP 4L is still in active use! As is my 5MP, which I just scored a new toner cartridge for... Dunno why I'd want to move to something newer, particularly. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From frustum at pacbell.net Sun Jan 25 15:20:07 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 15:20:07 -0600 Subject: AFIPS Press In-Reply-To: References: <497CC90C.50503@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <497CD787.7030401@pacbell.net> Simon Fryer wrote: ... > I have checked the IEEE web site and I can not find any references to > this directly. The closest I get is references to a computer > conference within the "Computer" periodical. > > Any chance you can list the titles and authors of any of the papers? Thanks, Simon. The article specifically is The BTI 8000 - Homogeneous, general-purpose multiprocessing by George R. Lewis and J. Shirley Henry BTI Computer Systems, Sunnyvale, California and Brian P. McCune Standford University, Stanford, California From fryers at gmail.com Sun Jan 25 15:32:14 2009 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 21:32:14 +0000 Subject: AFIPS Press In-Reply-To: <497CD787.7030401@pacbell.net> References: <497CC90C.50503@pacbell.net> <497CD787.7030401@pacbell.net> Message-ID: 2009/1/25 Jim Battle : > Simon Fryer wrote: > ... >> >> I have checked the IEEE web site and I can not find any references to >> this directly. The closest I get is references to a computer >> conference within the "Computer" periodical. >> >> Any chance you can list the titles and authors of any of the papers? > > Thanks, Simon. The article specifically is > > The BTI 8000 - Homogeneous, general-purpose multiprocessing > by George R. Lewis and J. Shirley Henry > BTI Computer Systems, Sunnyvale, California > and > Brian P. McCune > Standford University, Stanford, California I can not find this in the IEEE Xplore digital library. I searched authors, the full title and "Homogeneous, general-purpose multiprocessing". It is a pretty safe bet that the IEEE do not have this. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Jan 25 15:45:35 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 16:45:35 -0500 Subject: Thrift store score: HP LJ4L In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20090125143204.0bbf6158@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20090125143204.0bbf6158@localhost> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 25, 2009 at 3:32 PM, Tom Peters wrote: > At 11:07 AM 1/25/2009 -0500, you wrote: >> >> After years of looking at an HP LJ4L I got at the Uni surplus that >> someone had removed the fuser from, I found a nearly-unused 4L at the > > This is valuable? My HP 4L is still in active use! If it's still usable, I would say it has value, but is not perhaps "valuable" as in worth a lot of money. I was just bummed about that Uni 4L because I _thought_ was getting an inexpensive laser printer, but instead, I got 90% of a laser printer and was figuring I'd have to spend twice as much as the printer cost to get the one part I needed to get it working again. I consider $10 laser printers lacking an ethernet port a reasonable value. -ethan From doug at stillhq.com Sun Jan 25 17:51:00 2009 From: doug at stillhq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 10:51:00 +1100 Subject: SC/MP 8073 addressing query In-Reply-To: <0KDT00MZBOBTBKN0@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0KDT00MZBOBTBKN0@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <497CFAE4.3050700@stillhq.com> Hi Alison, Just a quick re-send in case you didn't get the original request. Are you able to shed come light on the configuration bits you mentioned below? (I was aware of the baud rate bits, but have no knowledge of the boot from ROM bit you mentioned) Also a quick scan of the demo board would be awesome. Thanks, Doug Allison wrote: >> Subject: SC/MP 8073 addressing query >> From: Doug Jackson >> Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 09:26:13 +1100 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >> Hi list, >> >> I have an interesting question regarding the INS8073 (National >> Semiconductor SC/MP 3 with BASIC in ROM). >> >> Finally, somebody gave me a round tuit, and I have started work on a >> simple 8073 system. >> >> Eventually, it will have 8K of ROM, 8K of RAM, an 8255, and a switch / >> LED interface. Currently on the board, I have the 6264 RAM tied to the >> 8073, with no address decoding (ie the CS* on the RAM is tied to A15 on >> the CPU). Sadly, as a simple test, this does not operate as I would >> expect. I would have expected that the RAM would have been selected >> anywhere in the lower 32K or the memory map, and I would have a simple >> system that would spit out a console prompt. But no luck. >> >> Now the question.... The internal ROM is located in the lowest 4K or >> the memory map. When the CPU is fetching data from the lower 4K, does >> it assert the NRDS line, and sample the external bus? My belief is that >> it does not, as the trivial application note that I have seen simply >> ties a couple of 2114 to the processor, and uses A10 as the chip select. >> >> > > I built one years ago and pull it out frm time to time. > > No, it's less than 4K and yes you do get NRDS. > Also you need pull up resistors on selected lines to set baus rate and > boot on rom. > > I'd use 2116(2kb) or 2164s(8kB) as they are 8bits wide and really save > on parts and power over 2114. One 2164 placed at at 1000h makes for a > tiny sysem. > > Finally NIBLE when it starts does a memory check for (Ep)rom at 8000h. > There are some addresses that are tested for information that have to > be respected. > > If no one comes up with the circuit that National had for the demo board > they sold I can scan my copy, it's pretty poor but may help. The manual > is just too thick for me to scan or copy. > > > Allison > > >> Any ideas? >> >> Doug >> >> >> >> -- >> Doug Jackson, I-RAP, MAIPM, MIEEE >> >> Principal Information Security Consultant >> EWA-AUSTRALIA >> PO Box 6308 O'Connor ACT 2602 >> Level 1, 214 Northbourne Ave, Braddon ACT 2612 >> >> Tel: +61 (0)2 6230 6833 >> Fax: +61 (0)2 6230 5833 >> Mob: +61 (0)414 986 878 >> >> http://www.ewa-australia.com >> >> >> ============================================ >> >> IMPORTANT: This email remains the property of Electronic Warfare >> Associates - Australia. If you have received this email in error, >> you are requested to contact doug.jackson at ewa-australia.com or Ph >> +61 2 62306833 and delete the email. This message is not to be >> copied or distributed to other parties without the express permission >> of the author. Any personal information in this email must be handled >> in accordance with the Privacy Act 1988 (Cth). >> >> ============================================ >> > > From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Jan 25 16:54:46 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 22:54:46 +0000 Subject: AFIPS Press In-Reply-To: <497CD787.7030401@pacbell.net> References: <497CC90C.50503@pacbell.net> <497CD787.7030401@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <497CEDB6.3070303@philpem.me.uk> Jim Battle wrote: > The BTI 8000 - Homogeneous, general-purpose multiprocessing > by George R. Lewis and J. Shirley Henry > BTI Computer Systems, Sunnyvale, California > and > Brian P. McCune > Standford University, Stanford, California I've just fed this to my university's meta-search engine (which scans the ACM Digital Library, ISI Web of Science and most of the EBSCO databases) and only found one hit: Resource: Inspec (EBSCO) Title: The BTI 8000-homogeneous, general-purpose multiprocessing Author: Lewis, G.R. Henry, J.S. McCune, B.P. Citation: USA 1979, pp., pp. 513-28, xi + 1095 pp. Year: 1979 Abstract: With the price of computer hardware decreasing steadily and the scope of data processing applications ever rising, the problem of upgrading a computer system is omnipresent. The myriad of potential pitfalls includes losing an investment in purchased hardware and software, reprogramming applications, reformatting data files, retraining personnel, operating two different systems in parallel during the conversion period and reoptimizing finely tuned applications Subject: computer architecture multiprocessing systems multiprocessing computer hardware computer system software reprogramming parallel Imprint: Montvale, NJ, USA New York, NY, USA : AFIPS , 19790101. Type: Conference Paper Language: English Meeting: AFIPS Conference Proceedings, vol.48. 1979 National Computer Conference That came up in one of the citation databases, and SFX shows it as "not available for purchase". Whatever happened to AFIPS, they probably weren't absorbed into ACM or IEEE... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Jan 25 17:04:29 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 23:04:29 +0000 Subject: AFIPS Press In-Reply-To: <497CD787.7030401@pacbell.net> References: <497CC90C.50503@pacbell.net> <497CD787.7030401@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <497CEFFD.6060004@philpem.me.uk> Ugh, disregard my last post, a quick Google for "AFIPS" found this: Which has a bit of information about the history of AFIPS, including their full name -- the American Federation of Information Processing Societies. On that page, there's a note: COPYRIGHT: CBI holds the copyright to all materials in the collection, except for items covered by a prior copyright (such as published materials). Researchers may quote from the collection under the fair use provisions of the copyright law (Title 17, U.S. Code). (CBI being the Charles Babbage Institute -- ) And to completely blow my final statement out of the water... The three founding societies of AFIPS were the Association for Computing Machinery, the American Institute of Electrical Engineers, and the Institute of Radio Engineers (the latter two eventually merged into the Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers). *facepalm* There is a fair bit of AFIPS stuff on Bitsavers; mostly bibliographical data, but there are a few PDFs there too, containing what appear to be scans of conference proceedings... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 25 17:11:14 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 15:11:14 -0800 Subject: AFIPS Press Message-ID: <497C8112.23068.532D8EB2@cclist.sydex.com> 2009/1/25 Jim Battle : > First, the questions: does anybody know what happened to AFIPS Press? AFIPS ceased operation in 1990. IEEE CS took over some of the archival stuff with ACM, but then IFIP picked up the slack. http://www.ifip.or.at/ IFIP, on their contact list, show both IEEE and ACM representatives for the USA. I'd start by dropping them both an email. If neither of them knows, no one does. Various universities may still have the AFIPS collection (e.g. FJCC, etc.) I have many fond memories of NCC. Cheers, Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Jan 25 17:24:25 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 23:24:25 +0000 Subject: someone selling bitsavers cd's on ebay? In-Reply-To: <20090125182839.5AD1EBA5157@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <200901251800.n0PI0AAx002750@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20090125182839.5AD1EBA5157@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <497CF4A9.7000003@philpem.me.uk> Tim Shoppa wrote: > I'm not saying that anything illegal happened, just that the > end result is a damned shame. Indeed. That said, it's capitalism, pure and simple. The contract is online here -- http://www.tech-systems-labs.com/pdf-files/Agreement.pdf -- if anyone's interested. $5000 for the entire Heathkit back-catalogue seems like a pretty sweet deal... I suppose the ultimate solution to this would be a pre-emptive strike of sorts. Find out who owns the copyright to at least some of these manuals, then ask for permission to distribute them as long as no charge is made for doing so. The ideal would be to buy up the copyright for as many companies' manuals as you can, then turn around and release them under GFDL or something. Or you go for the middle ground -- AIUI there's a "gentleman's agreement" between Tektronix and the electronics community at large. IIRC the terms were something along the lines of "if the product has been out of production for more than X years, and the manual is out of print, then owners of our gear may copy/distribute the manuals as long as the copyright page is intact and no charge is made for duplication". Again, I can't remember the exact terms, but ISTR there was a letter posted to the "TekScopes" mailing list at one point when permission was obtained. Staying in the test equipment field for a bit, a couple of years ago, Agilent started gathering copies of the manuals for their older test gear. That is to say, stuff from the HP days -- 1650-series logic analysers, and even older than that. What did they do with these manuals? Scanned them and put them on their website. For free download. This kind of behaviour can only be applauded (unless you're one of the bottom-feeding leeches trying to sell manuals for a vast profit on ebay, in which case, "ha ha ha, sucks to you") TTFN, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun Jan 25 17:54:54 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 23:54:54 +0000 Subject: someone selling bitsavers cd's on ebay? In-Reply-To: <20090125182839.5AD1EBA5157@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> References: <200901251800.n0PI0AAx002750@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20090125182839.5AD1EBA5157@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> Message-ID: <1232927694.19857.26.camel@elric> On Sun, 2009-01-25 at 13:28 -0500, Tim Shoppa wrote: > cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > Subject: RE: someone selling bitsavers cd's on ebay? > > On the one hand you can argue: they are just offering > > a service for people who can't download large > > volumes of > > documents. On the other hand, all of us are skating > > on some > > thin ice by scanning copyrighted material in the hopes > > that > > nobody really cares. It seems like a bad precedent > > for > > someone to be selling them for profit. > > Subject: RE: someone selling bitsavers cd's on ebay? > > The way I see it, the worst possible example of what might > happened has already happened: someone bought, via an E-bay > auction, the rights to all Heathkit manuals and then threatened > legal action against every single archive of scanned Heath material > on the web, causing them all to shut down. The *rights* to the Heathkit manuals were on eBay? [citation needed]... > I'm not saying that anything illegal happened, just that the > end result is a damned shame. Sod 'em. Host them somewhere else. Gordon From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Jan 25 18:51:13 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 00:51:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: New Honeywell H316 video on youtube In-Reply-To: <49694A11.3070709@hachti.de> Message-ID: <691977.60855.qm@web23402.mail.ird.yahoo.com> I watched it last night. It's a cool video. It's the first time I have seen paper tape readers and punchers, let alone seeing them in action :) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Sun, 11/1/09, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: From: Philipp Hachtmann Subject: New Honeywell H316 video on youtube To: "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Sunday, 11 January, 2009, 1:23 AM Hi folks, last night I took some 2006 dv footage and prepared it for youtube. Perhaps some people here like to watch that blinkenlights stuff. I show compiling and running a program on the machine. Not too detailed, but very nice moving images. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxVbRz6udmI Comments strongly appreciated! :-) Planning to do a more technical video another time. Best wishes, Philipp -- http://www.hachti.de From frustum at pacbell.net Sun Jan 25 18:58:30 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 18:58:30 -0600 Subject: AFIPS Press In-Reply-To: <497CEFFD.6060004@philpem.me.uk> References: <497CC90C.50503@pacbell.net> <497CD787.7030401@pacbell.net> <497CEFFD.6060004@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <497D0AB6.1030107@pacbell.net> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Ugh, disregard my last post, a quick Google for "AFIPS" found this: > > Very interesting. I had always searched on "AFIPS Press" (with the quotes) and was flooded by irrelevant links. I never thought that removing the "press" qualifier would produce better results. > Which has a bit of information about the history of AFIPS, including > their full name -- the American Federation of Information Processing > Societies. On that page, there's a note: ... Thanks Philip -- that is exactly what I need to proceed. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jan 25 19:02:15 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 17:02:15 -0800 Subject: New Honeywell H316 video on youtube In-Reply-To: <691977.60855.qm@web23402.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <49694A11.3070709@hachti.de>, <691977.60855.qm@web23402.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <497C9B17.8937.53937185@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Jan 2009 at 0:51, Andrew Burton wrote: > It's a cool video. It's the first time I have seen paper tape readers > and punchers, let alone seeing them in action :) The charm of paper tape is in the chad. You can booby-trap all manner of things with it... Cheers, Chuck From frustum at pacbell.net Sun Jan 25 19:20:37 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 19:20:37 -0600 Subject: AFIPS Press In-Reply-To: <497CEFFD.6060004@philpem.me.uk> References: <497CC90C.50503@pacbell.net> <497CD787.7030401@pacbell.net> <497CEFFD.6060004@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <497D0FE5.6080305@pacbell.net> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Ugh, disregard my last post, a quick Google for "AFIPS" found this: > > Interestingly, umn also has a searchable archive of burroughs photos, such as this one of B5000 at a trade show. I haven't spent much time looking around. http://digital.lib.umn.edu/IMAGES/reference/cb/cb000161.jpg And the search interface: http://www.cbi.umn.edu/images/index2.html From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Jan 25 19:20:45 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 20:20:45 -0500 Subject: someone selling bitsavers cd's on ebay? In-Reply-To: <497CF4A9.7000003@philpem.me.uk> References: <200901251800.n0PI0AAx002750@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20090125182839.5AD1EBA5157@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> <497CF4A9.7000003@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: > $5000 for the entire Heathkit back-catalogue seems like > a pretty sweet deal... Yes, it is. Buying originals of all the Heathkit manuals would cost you that much. > I suppose the ultimate solution to this would be a pre-emptive strike of > sorts. Find out who owns the copyright to at least some of these manuals, > then ask for permission to distribute them as long as no charge is made for > doing so. And what would the copyright holder get in return? -- Will From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sun Jan 25 19:30:07 2009 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 20:30:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: ASCII Art In-Reply-To: References: <889053.98289.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com><804239.42485.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com><200901220935.EAA03427@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <200901240950.EAA17639@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <035601c97e0f$cfcce250$46fea8c0@DeskJara> Message-ID: Some time ago, I was looking for the FORTRAN program or data deck used to print the large Mona Lisa picture that I saw back in the '70s. I was directed to Dave Gesswein's PDP-8 site, and a collection of vintage ASCII art files: http://www.pdp8online.com/ftp/ascii_art/ A 2-page wide version of the Mona Lisa was there, along with Buzz Aldrin on the moon, Spock holding a model of the Enterprise and a huge picture of the moon. These were all designed to be printed on a chain or drum printer using overstrike to create pseudo grayscale values. I printed off several images on a Data General LDM-800 line matrix printer, and was happy with the results. Several of the print files had the name "Sam Harbison" on them, from Princeton in 1973. I managed to locate an email address for Sam, and sent him a note asking about the process used in creating those pictures. With his permission, I posted his response on my ASCII Art page: http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ASCII/ He gives a very detailed explanation about the process. Photos of my printouts are there, as well. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jan 25 19:45:45 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 20:45:45 -0500 Subject: DZ11 distribution panel? In-Reply-To: <2645f9870901251240n31f68a24k7bb4779323c71911@mail.gmail.com> References: <2645f9870901251240n31f68a24k7bb4779323c71911@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <34BD20B5-FB98-4874-8373-2E538AFA6AF2@neurotica.com> On Jan 25, 2009, at 3:40 PM, B M wrote: > I am trying to confirm whether a distribution panel is meant for a > DZ11. On the metal frame there is a tag with a part number of > 70-16469. The circuit board has a part number of 5411928 5011927C. > The maintenance model references the H317E distribution panel and > suggests looking at drawing D-CS-5411928-0-1 printset for jumper > locations. > > Does anyone have the printset for the DZ11? I'm pretty sure I do, but it'll be in paper format and I'll have to dig a bit. Have you found it yet? If not, I'll start digging. Please let me know one way or the other. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Jan 25 22:26:55 2009 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 20:26:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: New Honeywell H316 video on youtube In-Reply-To: <497C9B17.8937.53937185@cclist.sydex.com> References: <49694A11.3070709@hachti.de>, <691977.60855.qm@web23402.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <497C9B17.8937.53937185@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 25 Jan 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 26 Jan 2009 at 0:51, Andrew Burton wrote: > >> It's a cool video. It's the first time I have seen paper tape readers >> and punchers, let alone seeing them in action :) > > The charm of paper tape is in the chad. You can booby-trap all > manner of things with it... > Like the defroster vents in a car... *looks up, whistles innocently* g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From michaelgreen42 at comcast.net Sun Jan 25 23:31:10 2009 From: michaelgreen42 at comcast.net (Michael) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 21:31:10 -0800 Subject: Burning CDR's on an ATARI ST In-Reply-To: <200901260123.n0Q1N6Bn007879@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901260123.n0Q1N6Bn007879@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <040601c97f77$4bf25be0$e3d713a0$@net> I've got some Atari 520's laying around and was wondering what it would take to burn cdr's with them. I've seen ACSI to SCSI adapters (I'm assuming this is necessary). Assuming I hook up a SCSI CDRW to this what software would I need to burn disks. Is there an easier way perhaps using some kind of ide adapter or a straight SCSI host adapter. Thanks. From vern4wright at yahoo.com Sun Jan 25 23:34:46 2009 From: vern4wright at yahoo.com (Vernon Wright) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 21:34:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: New Honeywell H316 video on youtube In-Reply-To: <49694A11.3070709@hachti.de> Message-ID: <521407.80294.qm@web65516.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Thank you, Philipp. It brought back fond memories. Vern Wright --- On Sat, 1/10/09, Philipp Hachtmann wrote: > From: Philipp Hachtmann > Subject: New Honeywell H316 video on youtube > To: "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Saturday, January 10, 2009, 5:23 PM > Hi folks, > > last night I took some 2006 dv footage and prepared it for > youtube. > > Perhaps some people here like to watch that blinkenlights > stuff. I show compiling and running > a program on the machine. Not too detailed, but very nice > moving images. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxVbRz6udmI > > Comments strongly appreciated! :-) > > > Planning to do a more technical video another time. > > Best wishes, > > Philipp > > > > -- http://www.hachti.de From vern4wright at yahoo.com Sun Jan 25 23:38:49 2009 From: vern4wright at yahoo.com (Vernon Wright) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 21:38:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: New Honeywell H316 video on youtube In-Reply-To: <497C9B17.8937.53937185@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <607785.79961.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 1/25/09, Chuck Guzis wrote: > From: Chuck Guzis > Subject: Re: New Honeywell H316 video on youtube > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Sunday, January 25, 2009, 5:02 PM > On 26 Jan 2009 at 0:51, Andrew Burton wrote: > > > It's a cool video. It's the first time I have > seen paper tape readers > > and punchers, let alone seeing them in action :) > > The charm of paper tape is in the chad. You can booby-trap > all > manner of things with it... > > Cheers, > Chuck And you can do even worse to the paper-tape owner - an extra hole surreptitiously added near the end of the roll.... Not that I ever did anything like that, of course. Vern From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Jan 26 00:20:43 2009 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 22:20:43 -0800 Subject: Burning CDR's on an ATARI ST In-Reply-To: <040601c97f77$4bf25be0$e3d713a0$@net> References: <200901260123.n0Q1N6Bn007879@dewey.classiccmp.org> <040601c97f77$4bf25be0$e3d713a0$@net> Message-ID: On Jan 25, 2009, at 9:31 PM, Michael wrote: > I've got some Atari 520's laying around and was wondering what it > would take > to burn cdr's with them. I've seen ACSI to SCSI adapters (I'm > assuming this > is necessary). Assuming I hook up a SCSI CDRW to this what software > would I > need to burn disks. It depends upon what type of CD you're trying to burn. The CD format (low level...I'm not talking about ISO9660) is fairly complex (session format, power lead in area, Reed-Soloman codes, etc). You also have to be able to maintain a minimum transfer rate or else you'll just end up making "coasters". An excellent primer on the subject is: http://www.mrichter.com/cdr/primer/primer.htm . Note that the section on "Bits as they are recorded" contains part of an article I wrote on the subject in a long forgotten usenet group. Another good place for information is: http://www.cdrfaq.org. It contains a lot more detail than the primer. And yes, to answer the question, I've written code to do all of the "weird" math (Galios fields) necessary for doing low level CD stuff. If you really want to write software for this you'll have to spend $ $'s and get *all* of the necessary specifications. Also expect to brush up on Error Coding (math) - you won't be able to create the ECC without it. This of course assumes that you want to do something other than create just data CDs. The drive handles most of that itself (but you still need to understand the basics). TTFN - Guy From doug at stillhq.com Mon Jan 26 04:29:55 2009 From: doug at stillhq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 21:29:55 +1100 Subject: SC/MP 8073 addressing query In-Reply-To: <0KDT00MZBOBTBKN0@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0KDT00MZBOBTBKN0@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <497D90A3.6020600@stillhq.com> Problem Solved!!!!! I just thought I would drop a message onto the list, so it is appropriately archived. The root cause of my problem was a sloppy clock. All of the sample schematics showed a crystal in parallel with 100K, in series with 1k, with 27pF to ground. In a private email, Chris Elmquist provided the actual 8073 data sheet, and there was a tiny little note indicating a process change to XMOS, from NMOS, requiring that the 1k be dropped to 220R, and the 27pF cap be changed to 130pF. In short, I made those simple changes, and the clock looked *much* nicer, and the board sprang into life. So, in short, there are no problems with having an address conflict with low memory, a 62256 (32k x 8 RAM) can simply be selected using A15 as the CS* signal. Thanks everybody for the assistance, it has been very helpful. Ta muchly!!!!!! By the way, my daughter thinks I am mad, what with 28K or RAM... Doug Allison wrote: >> Subject: SC/MP 8073 addressing query >> From: Doug Jackson >> Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 09:26:13 +1100 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >> Hi list, >> >> I have an interesting question regarding the INS8073 (National >> Semiconductor SC/MP 3 with BASIC in ROM). >> >> Finally, somebody gave me a round tuit, and I have started work on a >> simple 8073 system. >> >> Eventually, it will have 8K of ROM, 8K of RAM, an 8255, and a switch / >> LED interface. Currently on the board, I have the 6264 RAM tied to the >> 8073, with no address decoding (ie the CS* on the RAM is tied to A15 on >> the CPU). Sadly, as a simple test, this does not operate as I would >> expect. I would have expected that the RAM would have been selected >> anywhere in the lower 32K or the memory map, and I would have a simple >> system that would spit out a console prompt. But no luck. >> >> Now the question.... The internal ROM is located in the lowest 4K or >> the memory map. When the CPU is fetching data from the lower 4K, does >> it assert the NRDS line, and sample the external bus? My belief is that >> it does not, as the trivial application note that I have seen simply >> ties a couple of 2114 to the processor, and uses A10 as the chip select. >> >> > > I built one years ago and pull it out frm time to time. > > No, it's less than 4K and yes you do get NRDS. > Also you need pull up resistors on selected lines to set baus rate and > boot on rom. > > I'd use 2116(2kb) or 2164s(8kB) as they are 8bits wide and really save > on parts and power over 2114. One 2164 placed at at 1000h makes for a > tiny sysem. > > Finally NIBLE when it starts does a memory check for (Ep)rom at 8000h. > There are some addresses that are tested for information that have to > be respected. > > If no one comes up with the circuit that National had for the demo board > they sold I can scan my copy, it's pretty poor but may help. The manual > is just too thick for me to scan or copy. > > > Allison > > >> Any ideas? >> >> Doug >> >> >> >> -- >> Doug Jackson, I-RAP, MAIPM, MIEEE >> >> Principal Information Security Consultant >> EWA-AUSTRALIA >> PO Box 6308 O'Connor ACT 2602 >> Level 1, 214 Northbourne Ave, Braddon ACT 2612 >> >> Tel: +61 (0)2 6230 6833 >> Fax: +61 (0)2 6230 5833 >> Mob: +61 (0)414 986 878 >> >> http://www.ewa-australia.com >> >> >> ============================================ >> >> IMPORTANT: This email remains the property of Electronic Warfare >> Associates - Australia. If you have received this email in error, >> you are requested to contact doug.jackson at ewa-australia.com or Ph >> +61 2 62306833 and delete the email. This message is not to be >> copied or distributed to other parties without the express permission >> of the author. Any personal information in this email must be handled >> in accordance with the Privacy Act 1988 (Cth). >> >> ============================================ >> > > -- Doug Jackson, I-RAP, MAIPM, MIEEE Principal Information Security Consultant EWA-AUSTRALIA PO Box 6308 O'Connor ACT 2602 Level 1, 214 Northbourne Ave, Braddon ACT 2612 Tel: +61 (0)2 6230 6833 Fax: +61 (0)2 6230 5833 Mob: +61 (0)414 986 878 http://www.ewa-australia.com ============================================ IMPORTANT: This email remains the property of Electronic Warfare Associates - Australia. If you have received this email in error, you are requested to contact doug.jackson at ewa-australia.com or Ph +61 2 62306833 and delete the email. This message is not to be copied or distributed to other parties without the express permission of the author. Any personal information in this email must be handled in accordance with the Privacy Act 1988 (Cth). ============================================ From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Jan 25 10:39:54 2009 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 11:39:54 -0500 Subject: Thrift store score: HP LJ4L Message-ID: <0KE100AHFCXTHS18@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Thrift store score: HP LJ4L > From: Ethan Dicks > Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 11:07:15 -0500 > To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org > >After years of looking at an HP LJ4L I got at the Uni surplus that >someone had removed the fuser from, I found a nearly-unused 4L at the >nearby thrift store yesterday. It printed the test page without a >burp, but was on the shelf without a price. I found someone to get it >priced and walked out a happy customer $6 later. > >The only thing it's missing is a right-angle IEC power cord to fit >behind the access door, but it works well enough with a straight-in >cable. > >-ethan Good hit on that one. Those are reliable and #6 is dirt cheap as they are still useable. Also it will work with a lot of the non-pC systems that had centronics or similar inerfaces with minor connector-wire matching. Allison From iamvirtual at gmail.com Sun Jan 25 14:40:03 2009 From: iamvirtual at gmail.com (B M) Date: Sun, 25 Jan 2009 13:40:03 -0700 Subject: DZ11 distribution panel? Message-ID: <2645f9870901251240n31f68a24k7bb4779323c71911@mail.gmail.com> Hi, I am trying to confirm whether a distribution panel is meant for a DZ11. On the metal frame there is a tag with a part number of 70-16469. The circuit board has a part number of 5411928 5011927C. The maintenance model references the H317E distribution panel and suggests looking at drawing D-CS-5411928-0-1 printset for jumper locations. Does anyone have the printset for the DZ11? Thanks. --barrym From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jan 26 07:59:38 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 08:59:38 -0500 Subject: Thrift store score: HP LJ4L In-Reply-To: <0KE100AHFCXTHS18@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0KE100AHFCXTHS18@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 25, 2009 at 11:39 AM, Allison wrote: >> I found a nearly-unused 4L at the >>nearby thrift store yesterday. It printed the test page without a >>burp... and (I) walked out a happy customer $6 later. > > Good hit on that one. Those are reliable and #6 is dirt cheap as > they are still useable. Yep. > Also it will work with a lot of the non-pC systems that had centronics > or similar inerfaces with minor connector-wire matching. Indeed. I just might have to stick this on an LP8E or the parallel port of a DMF32 (it might require an inverter or two). It's not a 4ML, so it doesn't have Postscript, but I can't complain about the price (and I do already have a 4ML I bought new for $1100, 15+ years ago and it's still going strong). -ethan From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Jan 26 10:19:09 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 17:19:09 +0100 Subject: Who has : HP 6942a Multi programmers manuals Message-ID: Hi, I aquired a HP 6942A Multi programmer unit some time ago and like to play with it, but I don't have a manual. Except a partial service manual with can be downloaded and a app-note form the HP- museum. Question does some one has the manuals for this 'beast' paper or pdf ? -Rik From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Mon Jan 26 10:38:56 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 14:38:56 -0200 Subject: Thrift store score: HP LJ4L References: <0KE100AHFCXTHS18@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <106f01c97fd4$b4cdcbb0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> >>> I found a nearly-unused 4L at the >>>nearby thrift store yesterday. It printed the test page without a >>>burp... and (I) walked out a happy customer $6 later. I don't see too much value on these all-plastic-printers. I have a 4Plus (now 4MPlus, added postscript and tens of megabytes of ram, and also a jetdirect) for YEARS and it is still going strong. I do love my printer :) All-steel and very durable construction :D From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jan 26 11:03:33 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 09:03:33 -0800 Subject: AFIPS Press Message-ID: <497DECE5.5030709@bitsavers.org> > First, the questions: does anybody know what happened to AFIPS Press? AFIPS was an association of computer associations, including IEEE and ACM. ACM is asserting copyright on the JCC volumes. I just finished scanning CHM's collection of the proceedings for the ACM digital libary, they are in the process of putting them on line. I would check with ACM for permisssion to post, since CHM received permission to post the entire collection on their web site in exchange for scanning them. From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Jan 26 12:40:09 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 13:40:09 -0500 Subject: Thrift store score: HP LJ4L In-Reply-To: References: <0KE100AHFCXTHS18@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200901261340.09431.rtellason@verizon.net> > It's not a 4ML, so it doesn't have Postscript, but I can't complain > about the price (and I do already have a 4ML I bought new for $1100, > 15+ years ago and it's still going strong). > > -ethan Isn't postscript in those a matter of just one SIMM? And, are those obtainable anywhere? Just wondering... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jan 26 12:53:28 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 13:53:28 -0500 Subject: Thrift store score: HP LJ4L In-Reply-To: <106f01c97fd4$b4cdcbb0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> References: <0KE100AHFCXTHS18@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> <106f01c97fd4$b4cdcbb0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> Message-ID: On Jan 26, 2009, at 11:38 AM, Alexandre Souza wrote: >>>> I found a nearly-unused 4L at the >>>> nearby thrift store yesterday. It printed the test page without a >>>> burp... and (I) walked out a happy customer $6 later. > > I don't see too much value on these all-plastic-printers. I have > a 4Plus (now 4MPlus, added postscript and tens of megabytes of ram, > and also a jetdirect) for YEARS and it is still going strong. I do > love my printer :) All-steel and very durable construction :D Indeed, those are amazing printers. My mother has a 4MPlus that I just decommissioned; it finally started to wear out, with about a million prints on the page counter. I bought it used and pretty beat up from a surplus dealer in ~1998, it saw daily duty in a small office printing stuff for about five people for several years, then it was stored in a very hot storage locker for about four years, and then it spent two years printing a LOT of stuff for my mother's business. It just never gave up! Anyway, it started needing more and more attention recently; it seems it was just wearing out. I got her an HP 8100DN (like mine) from another surplus dealer, and she loves it. It is every bit as well-constructed as the 4MPlus, and a fantastic performer. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From tiggerlasv at aim.com Mon Jan 26 13:23:27 2009 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 14:23:27 -0500 Subject: DZ11 distribution panel? Message-ID: <8CB4E02B2F3FB2C-E5C-10@WEBMAIL-MA05.sysops.aol.com> A quick check of the DZV11 and DHV11 user guides, as well as physical inspection of the same panels here would indicate that your panel is NOT meant for either of those boards. Checking both the DZ11 maintenance manual, and the DZ11 technical manual, I see references to the drawing that you mentioned. Further, searching for "54-11928-00" on yahoo returns at least one website that identifies it as a DZ11 distirbution panel. http://www.kuno.de/kunden/kch/modul_54.htm (Search for 54-11928) There is also a picture of the H317 panel in the maintenance manual, but nothing definitive. T From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jan 26 13:44:04 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 11:44:04 -0800 Subject: (Fwd) Re: Thrift store score: HP LJ4L Message-ID: <497DA204.10109.57960EA1@cclist.sydex.com> On 26 Jan 2009 at 13:53, Dave McGuire wrote: > Indeed, those are amazing printers. My mother has a 4MPlus that I > just decommissioned; it finally started to wear out, with about a > million prints on the page counter. I bought it used and pretty beat > up from a surplus dealer in ~1998, it saw daily duty in a small > office printing stuff for about five people for several years, then > it was stored in a very hot storage locker for about four years, and > then it spent two years printing a LOT of stuff for my mother's > business. It just never gave up! I've got a couple of old Panasonic lasers (KX-P4450i (PCL) and KX- P4455 (PS)); circa early 1990s. Heavy battleship construction; separate toner (i.e. out of a bottle, no cartridges). They keep going and going--but lately I've been using the cheap ($100 on a good day) Brother lasers. Great print quality, miserly toner usage (and easy to refill carts) and they don't dim the lights when the fuser comes on. After 3 years on my "short" HL-4050 cartridge with the toner lamp blinking, I finally refilled it with toner I bought 2 years ago. Problem now is what to do with old Panasonics--they use Moto 68K processors internally and have a great deal of nice mechanical components--and AppleTalk interfaces as well as serial and parallel. Probably recycle them, I guess. No inclination to fool with the innards. I'd love to find a good deal on an HP LJ 5si. That 11x17 print format would come in handy. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Jan 26 13:51:40 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 14:51:40 -0500 Subject: (Fwd) Re: Thrift store score: HP LJ4L In-Reply-To: <497DA204.10109.57960EA1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <497DA204.10109.57960EA1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200901261451.40697.rtellason@verizon.net> > I'd love to find a good deal on an HP LJ 5si. That 11x17 print > format would come in handy. Yeah it would! Thanks for calling my attention to that one. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jan 26 14:23:05 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 15:23:05 -0500 Subject: (Fwd) Re: Thrift store score: HP LJ4L In-Reply-To: <497DA204.10109.57960EA1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <497DA204.10109.57960EA1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Jan 26, 2009, at 2:44 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I've got a couple of old Panasonic lasers (KX-P4450i (PCL) and KX- > P4455 (PS)); circa early 1990s. Heavy battleship construction; > separate toner (i.e. out of a bottle, no cartridges). Ahh, I remember those. I worked for a small company that sold the 4450 when it came out. They were very popular in the desktop publishing segment due to very dense blacks. > They keep > going and going--but lately I've been using the cheap ($100 on a good > day) Brother lasers. Great print quality, miserly toner usage (and > easy to refill carts) and they don't dim the lights when the fuser > comes on. After 3 years on my "short" HL-4050 cartridge with the > toner lamp blinking, I finally refilled it with toner I bought 2 > years ago. Neat! > Problem now is what to do with old Panasonics--they use Moto 68K > processors internally and have a great deal of nice mechanical > components--and AppleTalk interfaces as well as serial and parallel. > > Probably recycle them, I guess. No inclination to fool with the > innards. If they're functional, why not re-home them? Why destroy functional, useful hardware? A printer in the guest room, etc etc. Or I'm sure there's a kid somewhere who'd appreciate one. > I'd love to find a good deal on an HP LJ 5si. That 11x17 print > format would come in handy. I've gotten two stupendously good deals on serious printers...The first, last March was an eBay auction for an HP 8100DN (Postscript, 11x17, dual paper trays, duplexer, 100Mbps Ethernet, the rated duty cycle is huge...150K pages PER MONTH!). It was local to me; it was listed by one of those storefronts that list stuff on eBay for a fee. They described it poorly and were obviously clueless about it. I wouldn't have bid on it if it weren't local, because clueless people tend to ship laser printers with toner cartridges installed...which usually destroys the printer. Plus, it was listed with a shipping fee of $200. (it's huge and very heavy) To make a long story short, I ended up getting this printer, with original box and packing material, with 20K (yes twenty thousand) prints on the counter, with a 97%-full toner cartridge, for twenty bucks. The thing is practically brand new. The second great deal was from a surplus dealer in Illinois a few months ago. I was up there on business with a truck, and this place had a pair of HP 8550DN printers, one working and one for parts. They are floor-standing large-office-grade printers...Color Postscript (yes, color!), 11x17, dual paper trays, duplexer 100Mbps Ethernet, huge duty cycle, integral hard drive, etc etc etc. Two sets of 50%-full toner cartridges, all colors. The guy needed to clear some space so I ended up getting both of them for about $100.00. So, they take up some space, but I have high-speed monochrome and color 11x17 printing-on-both-sides Postscript-at-100Mbps 32-page-per- minute output capability in my office. It is glorious! Incidentally, the "D" in the model suffix means it's got a duplexer. If you find an 8100N or 8550N, it can be turned into a DN with the addition of a duplexer module. Both of these printers take the same duplexer module; it can be had for ~$20 on eBay, and it installs with no tools in about two minutes flat. I recommend both of these models (HP 8100DN, HP 8550DN) wholeheartedly. In fact, I love these printers so much that I drooled all over my shirt as I typed this. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Mon Jan 26 14:29:59 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 18:29:59 -0200 Subject: (Fwd) Re: Thrift store score: HP LJ4L References: <497DA204.10109.57960EA1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <12ce01c97ff4$fa984240$46fea8c0@DeskJara> > Problem now is what to do with old Panasonics--they use Moto 68K > processors internally and have a great deal of nice mechanical > components--and AppleTalk interfaces as well as serial and parallel. Maybe the same I do here: Turn it into new toys using its parts. I use old fuser units to make PCB laminators for friends (http://www.tabajara-labs.com.br - look for PCB manufacturing) and all of its mechanical and electronic parts are stored :o) From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 26 15:37:40 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 14:37:40 -0700 Subject: ebay: 2 vintage cards for apollo workstation Message-ID: ebay item # 260352448968 -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jan 26 15:53:47 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 21:53:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Who has : HP 6942a Multi programmers manuals In-Reply-To: from "Rik Bos" at Jan 26, 9 05:19:09 pm Message-ID: > I aquired a HP 6942A Multi programmer unit some time ago and like to play > with it, but I don't have a manual. > Except a partial service manual with can be downloaded and a app-note form > the HP- museum. > Question does some one has the manuals for this 'beast' paper or pdf ? Alas not. I only have an HP6940B with an assortment of I/O cards and the 59500 HPIN interface. But I believe they're very different to the 6942 (The I/O cards are different I believe, for a start...) Interesting concept, though... -tony From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Jan 26 16:02:35 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 23:02:35 +0100 Subject: Who has : HP 6942a Multi programmers manuals In-Reply-To: References: from "Rik Bos" at Jan26, 9 05:19:09 pm Message-ID: <52FA88C6B17141E2A55878D2DE7D0D2C@xp1800> Thanks to Mark, I'm getting the manuals . And yes they are very different according to the HP catalogue from 1981. -Rik > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Tony Duell > Verzonden: maandag 26 januari 2009 22:54 > Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Re: Who has : HP 6942a Multi programmers manuals > > > I aquired a HP 6942A Multi programmer unit some time ago > and like to > > play with it, but I don't have a manual. > > Except a partial service manual with can be downloaded and > a app-note > > form the HP- museum. > > Question does some one has the manuals for this 'beast' > paper or pdf ? > > Alas not. I only have an HP6940B with an assortment of I/O > cards and the 59500 HPIN interface. But I believe they're > very different to the 6942 (The I/O cards are different I > believe, for a start...) > > Interesting concept, though... > > -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jan 26 16:31:20 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 17:31:20 -0500 Subject: Thrift store score: HP LJ4L In-Reply-To: <106f01c97fd4$b4cdcbb0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> References: <0KE100AHFCXTHS18@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> <106f01c97fd4$b4cdcbb0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 11:38 AM, Alexandre Souza wrote: >>>> I found a nearly-unused 4L at the >>>> nearby thrift store yesterday. It printed the test page without a >>>> burp... and (I) walked out a happy customer $6 later. > > I don't see too much value on these all-plastic-printers. I have a 4Plus > (now 4MPlus, added postscript and tens of megabytes of ram, and also a > jetdirect) for YEARS and it is still going strong. I do love my printer :) > All-steel and very durable construction :D Perhaps you missed the bit where I said my 4ML was bought new in 1993 and is still going strong? I use it for business and personal printing. The only difference between the 4L and the 4ML is the card with the Postscript engine on it (and the Mac 8-pin-minidin). The case and the engine is the same. I call 15+ years of use durable, but I don't dance on it at office parties. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jan 26 16:38:17 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 17:38:17 -0500 Subject: Thrift store score: HP LJ4L In-Reply-To: <200901261340.09431.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <0KE100AHFCXTHS18@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> <200901261340.09431.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Jan 26, 2009 at 1:40 PM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> It's not a 4ML, so it doesn't have Postscript, but I can't complain >> about the price (and I do already have a 4ML I bought new for $1100, >> 15+ years ago and it's still going strong). > > Isn't postscript in those a matter of just one SIMM? And, are those > obtainable anywhere? Just wondering... Not with this model - the 4M and 4ML use the same case and engine (and look identical from the outside), but under one of the cord cover bays is a Mac-pinned RS-422 8-pin minidin which is either at the edge of or is cabled to an extra board that the 4L does not have. The extra board is a Postscript engine and font ROMs. I believe it would be possible to turn a 4L into a 4ML by adding the extra goodies, but it is nothing like its contemporaries that were mostly lacking a ROM SIMM with Postscript and/or Adobe fonts on it. The 4ML will even talk out both ports - the Mac port to a Localtalk network, and the parallel port to a PC or Amiga or whatever. I used to use that feature to my advantage when I would run a Mac emulator on my Amiga (with add-on Mac serial ports and Localtalk). The printer was smart take a job from one port and hold the other port off until the first job was done - no printer switch necessary. Yes I like larger HP printers, but for something that only takes up the corner of a desk, the 4ML is really nice. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jan 26 17:13:10 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 18:13:10 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 vs Model III disk/application compatibility question Message-ID: Hi, all, I was cleaning up around the house and wanted to stash a Model 3 on the shelf out of the way. Before I did, I fired it up to make sure it (still) worked, and to try something I haven't tried before... I have diskettes, c. 1982, from a friend lying around, so I booted it into TRSDOS 1.3. All seems well. It claims to have 48K (internally and according to the markings of the case and the memory report at boot time), passes MEMTEST (which is on most/all of the TRSDOS disks), it runs BASIC, and it starts a couple of binary games I found. What it does not do is run Zork or Enchanter. I have original Zork I and Enchanter disks. Booting up a backup of the Zork disk gets me to a TRSDOS prompt. I can take a DIR and see the program and the data file there. If I start Zork, the screen blanks, the disk gronks and the access light blinks occasionally. I hear what sounds like successive track seeks (which I'm expecting since I know how Z-Machines work and roughly what virtual pages need to be loaded to get a game started), but then after a few seconds (less than 2 min), it sounds and looks like it's in a loop and repeats the gronking and flashing. I never see anything on the screen except for a blinking cursor. The Enchanter disk isn't much better - I think it spins the disk and gronks for a bit, then goes quiet. I'm posting because I am reasonably certain, due to age if nothing else, that these are Model 1 diskettes. Enchanter is a flippy, with an original Infocom label on both sides marked "side 1" and "side 2". The Zork disk is a Personal Software release (I have the 8.5"x11" manual, too, naturally), thus about as old as it gets for Infocom products. I don't recall when the III came out, but Enchanter is one of the older titles, along with Starcross and Zork, so sometime around 1982. The dates in the directory for the Zork disk are also 1982 (prior to the most commonly available release of the gamefile from 1983). The part I'm not sure of is if there would be any gotchas trying to run software from 1981-1982 on a Model III or not. Of course I can play these games on a variety of systems I have on hand. I'm just trying to get this to start up to check gamefile version numbers and to take a few turns at 27-year-old-machine speeds. It's possible I have two different defective game disks, but it's also likely that I'm attempting something out of naivete that a die-hard TRS-80 user would immediately recognize as futile. Thanks for any tips, -ethan From mkr at trs-80.org Mon Jan 26 19:07:01 2009 From: mkr at trs-80.org (Matthew Reed) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 20:07:01 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 vs Model III disk/application compatibility question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <497E5E35.7040401@trs-80.org> Ethan Dicks wrote: > I have original Zork I and Enchanter disks. Booting up a backup of > the Zork disk gets me to a TRSDOS prompt. I can take a DIR and see > the program and the data file there. If I start Zork, the screen > blanks, the disk gronks and the access light blinks occasionally. I > hear what sounds like successive track seeks (which I'm expecting > since I know how Z-Machines work and roughly what virtual pages need > to be loaded to get a game started), but then after a few seconds > (less than 2 min), it sounds and looks like it's in a loop and repeats > the gronking and flashing. I never see anything on the screen except > for a blinking cursor. The Enchanter disk isn't much better - I think > it spins the disk and gronks for a bit, then goes quiet. > > I'm posting because I am reasonably certain, due to age if nothing > else, that these are Model 1 diskettes. Enchanter is a flippy, with > an original Infocom label on both sides marked "side 1" and "side 2". > The Zork disk is a Personal Software release (I have the 8.5"x11" > manual, too, naturally), thus about as old as it gets for Infocom > products. I don't recall when the III came out, but Enchanter is one > of the older titles, along with Starcross and Zork, so sometime around > 1982. The dates in the directory for the Zork disk are also 1982 > (prior to the most commonly available release of the gamefile from > 1983). The part I'm not sure of is if there would be any gotchas > trying to run software from 1981-1982 on a Model III or not. The Model III was introduced in 1980, so a 1981 or 1982 date isn't a problem. I don't know about Enchanter, but Zork I for the Model I (catalog number 26-1950) and the Model III (catalog number 26-1951) were separate products. Both were Personal Software releases and only the appropriate disk was included with each package. If you can boot your disk into TRSDOS, then you definitely have the Model III version. No version of Model I TRSDOS was ever able to boot on a Model III. Also, according to the Zork I manual, the Model I version went directly to the game without stopping at any prompt. What you describe sounds as though the boot loader is timing out after failing to read a sector. That might be caused by bad disks or possibly a drive problem. If you have two drives, you could try booting one of your TRSDOS 1.3 disks and running Zork from the second drive instead. -- Matthew Reed http://www.trs-80.org mkr at trs-80.org From wmaddox at pacbell.net Mon Jan 26 19:48:21 2009 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 17:48:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: Very nice IBM 2040 magtape drive (classic upright 9-track) on eBay Message-ID: <308749.54317.qm@web82603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Item # 130282737254 19 hours to go, with one bid at $200. --Bill From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Jan 26 20:07:00 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 21:07:00 -0500 Subject: Very nice IBM 2040 magtape drive (classic upright 9-track) on eBay In-Reply-To: <308749.54317.qm@web82603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <308749.54317.qm@web82603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > 19 hours to go, with one bid at $200. That is actually a 3420, not a 2040. 3420s are drying up, and 200 dollars is probably not unreasonable. -- Will From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Jan 26 20:28:03 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 21:28:03 -0500 Subject: (Fwd) Re: Thrift store score: HP LJ4L In-Reply-To: References: <497DA204.10109.57960EA1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200901262128.03717.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 26 January 2009, Dave McGuire wrote: > I've gotten two stupendously good deals on serious printers...The > first, last March was an eBay auction for an HP 8100DN (Postscript, > 11x17, dual paper trays, duplexer, 100Mbps Ethernet, the rated duty > cycle is huge...150K pages PER MONTH!). >From my experience, spending more than $50 or so on an 8100 is too much to spend... The 5si, 8000, 8100, and 8150 are from the same basic line of printers, and I've been very happy with all of them, with higher models adding speed and resolution. The best thing is that it's usually cheaper to get a new printer than buy a new toner cartridge for the thing, and a cart with 10% left will typically last me many years of printing. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From legalize at xmission.com Mon Jan 26 21:18:06 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 20:18:06 -0700 Subject: ebay: 2 vintage cards for apollo workstation In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 26 Jan 2009 14:37:40 -0700. Message-ID: Just passing this on for others, I'm in no way connected to the sale. I've had an ebay search running for a couple years now looking for Apollo gear and this is the first stuff that's turned up. Either Apollo workstation stuff is rare, or my search sucks :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Tue Jan 27 00:45:33 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 22:45:33 -0800 Subject: Recommendations for IMSAI-compatible RAM cards? Message-ID: <497EAD8D.6090702@mail.msu.edu> Hey all -- Acquired an IMSAI 8080 in half-assembled condition (but the price was right). I believe that (after doing some thorough cleaning, debugging, and replacing of old cabling) that I've got the front panel and CPU functioning correctly. However, the IMSAI came without any RAM cards so I'm unable to go any further at the moment. I have one S-100 RAM card but I have no documentation on it and it's missing a couple of ICs (and what they're supposed to be, I don't know). It's a PSS RAM65. My internet searches for info confirm that the card does indeed exist, but I can find no technical information. From my research, my understanding is that S-100 RAM cards are fickle and compatibility with front-panel machines can be an issue. Does anyone have any recommendations for what to look out for as I begin my search? Anyone have any decent RAM cards they'd be willing to part with? Thanks! Josh From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Jan 27 00:59:27 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 22:59:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: updates to the Little Orphan Tomy Tutor site Message-ID: <200901270659.n0R6xRKq019666@floodgap.com> Finally got off my rear end and updated the Little Orphan Tomy Tutor site, focusing on the TMS 9995-based Tomy Tutor home computer. I've added more information on the marketing promise (including the "TI Adapter") thanks to a full video capture of the Demonstration Cartridge, started uploading scans of the official User Club newsletters, uploaded the printer interface (allowing you to connect any standard parallel-port printer to the Tomy Tutor) schematic and redid most of the photography, along with a reorganized cartridge list, updated trade list and other ticky stuff. Hope you enjoy it, http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/tomy/ -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Smile if you like this tag line. ------------------------------------------- From rikbos at xs4all.nl Mon Jan 26 08:07:47 2009 From: rikbos at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 15:07:47 +0100 Subject: Who has : HP 6942a Multi programmers manuals Message-ID: <82E02989F9804DCC9F7B2148C762D073@xp1800> Hi, I aquired a HP 6942A Multi programmer unit some time ago and like to play with it, but I don't have a manual. Except a partial service manual with can be downloaded and a app-note form the HP- museum. Question does some one has the manuals for this 'beast' paper or pdf ? -Rik From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jan 27 08:24:40 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 06:24:40 -0800 Subject: Recommendations for IMSAI-compatible RAM cards? In-Reply-To: <497EAD8D.6090702@mail.msu.edu> References: <497EAD8D.6090702@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > Date: Mon, 26 Jan 2009 22:45:33 -0800 > From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu > To: > Subject: Recommendations for IMSAI-compatible RAM cards? > > Hey all -- > > Acquired an IMSAI 8080 in half-assembled condition (but the price was > right). I believe that (after doing some thorough cleaning, debugging, > and replacing of old cabling) that I've got the front panel and CPU > functioning correctly. However, the IMSAI came without any RAM cards so > I'm unable to go any further at the moment. > > I have one S-100 RAM card but I have no documentation on it and it's > missing a couple of ICs (and what they're supposed to be, I don't > know). It's a PSS RAM65. My internet searches for info confirm that > the card does indeed exist, but I can find no technical information. > > From my research, my understanding is that S-100 RAM cards are fickle > and compatibility with front-panel machines can be an issue. Does > anyone have any recommendations for what to look out for as I begin my > search? Anyone have any decent RAM cards they'd be willing to part with? > > Thanks! > Josh Hi Josh If it is static RAM you should be able to make it work. Don't even try with DRAM. You'd be luck to get them working on a IMSAI. Most DRAM needs a running processor. If you stop the processor you lose the data. Some do have circuits to keep refresh going but these are only the rarer early ones specifically designed for a front panel machine. Have you done any tracing of the circuit. I had a card once with a couple missing parts that I'd had sitting around for a few years that I wanted to use. It was missing a few parts as well. After tracing the circuit, I found that the missing parts were for bank selection and were not needed for normal use. Static RAMs have relatively simple circuits. Just trace things out. ?The missing chips should be easy to determine. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live? Hotmail?:?more than just e-mail. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_explore_012009 From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Tue Jan 27 10:23:22 2009 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 08:23:22 -0800 Subject: IBM PC Jr. available in San Jose (short notice) Message-ID: I've been contacted by someone offering a PC Jr. Please contact original author directly. He's planning to recycle it tomorrow if there's no interest. Eric ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Alex Khajehtoorian Subject: IBM PC Jr. To: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Dr. Korpela, This might seem a little random, but i recently installed BOINC software for SETI at home and while reading up on the project and team i noticed that you enjoy to restore vintage computers. I'm not sure how vintage you consider an IBM PC Jr, but i have one that is in excellent condition. I have contacted museums and schools and no one has a need for it. I'd rather not recycle it because it is like new. If you'd like, its all yours. http://www.computercloset.org/IBMPCjr.htm that's not mine, but an example Feel free to ask colleagues. I live in San Jose and you can have it anytime. Regards, Alex Khajehtoorian From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue Jan 27 10:41:10 2009 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 11:41:10 -0500 Subject: Recommendations for IMSAI-compatible RAM cards? In-Reply-To: <497EAD8D.6090702@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: The Compupro RAM series (RAM16, etc.) do a good job for me. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Josh Dersch > Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 1:46 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Recommendations for IMSAI-compatible RAM cards? > > > Hey all -- > > Acquired an IMSAI 8080 in half-assembled condition (but the price was > right). I believe that (after doing some thorough cleaning, debugging, > and replacing of old cabling) that I've got the front panel and CPU > functioning correctly. However, the IMSAI came without any RAM cards so > I'm unable to go any further at the moment. > > I have one S-100 RAM card but I have no documentation on it and it's > missing a couple of ICs (and what they're supposed to be, I don't > know). It's a PSS RAM65. My internet searches for info confirm that > the card does indeed exist, but I can find no technical information. > > From my research, my understanding is that S-100 RAM cards are fickle > and compatibility with front-panel machines can be an issue. Does > anyone have any recommendations for what to look out for as I begin my > search? Anyone have any decent RAM cards they'd be willing to part with? > > Thanks! > Josh > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.176 / Virus Database: 270.10.13/1916 - Release Date: > 1/26/2009 6:37 PM > From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Tue Jan 27 11:03:34 2009 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 09:03:34 -0800 Subject: Thrift store score: HP LJ4L In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20090125143204.0bbf6158@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20090125143204.0bbf6158@localhost> Message-ID: On Sun, Jan 25, 2009 at 12:32 PM, Tom Peters wrote: > At 11:07 AM 1/25/2009 -0500, you wrote: >> >> After years of looking at an HP LJ4L I got at the Uni surplus that >> someone had removed the fuser from, I found a nearly-unused 4L at the > > This is valuable? My HP 4L is still in active use! Not valuable, I think. Just useful. I'm still happy with mine, apart from the small capacity of the paper tray and the tendency for jams when it is filled to capacity. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jan 27 13:19:54 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 14:19:54 -0500 Subject: Thrift store score: HP LJ4L In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.2.20090125143204.0bbf6158@localhost> Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 12:03 PM, Eric J Korpela wrote: > On Sun, Jan 25, 2009 at 12:32 PM, Tom Peters wrote: >> At 11:07 AM 1/25/2009 -0500, you wrote: >>> >>> After years of looking at an HP LJ4L I got at the Uni surplus that >>> someone had removed the fuser from, I found a nearly-unused 4L at the >> >> This is valuable? My HP 4L is still in active use! > > Not valuable, I think. Just useful. I'm still happy with mine, apart > from the small capacity of the paper tray and the tendency for jams > when it is filled to capacity. Agreed - I found out long ago that the 4ML didn't like to be packed tight with paper, and it does have a tiny tray. Since I don't print 500 pages at a shot, I never found it to be a painful limitation, but in a larger office environment, ream-sized paper trays are nice to have. -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 27 13:14:14 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 19:14:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 vs Model III disk/application compatibility question In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Jan 26, 9 06:13:10 pm Message-ID: > > Hi, all, > > I was cleaning up around the house and wanted to stash a Model 3 on > the shelf out of the way. Before I did, I fired it up to make sure it > (still) worked, and to try something I haven't tried before... > > I have diskettes, c. 1982, from a friend lying around, so I booted it > into TRSDOS 1.3. All seems well. It claims to have 48K (internally > and according to the markings of the case and the memory report at > boot time), passes MEMTEST (which is on most/all of the TRSDOS disks), > it runs BASIC, and it starts a couple of binary games I found. What > it does not do is run Zork or Enchanter. > > I have original Zork I and Enchanter disks. Booting up a backup of > the Zork disk gets me to a TRSDOS prompt. I can take a DIR and see > the program and the data file there. If I start Zork, the screen > blanks, the disk gronks and the access light blinks occasionally. I > hear what sounds like successive track seeks (which I'm expecting > since I know how Z-Machines work and roughly what virtual pages need > to be loaded to get a game started), but then after a few seconds > (less than 2 min), it sounds and looks like it's in a loop and repeats > the gronking and flashing. I never see anything on the screen except > for a blinking cursor. The Enchanter disk isn't much better - I think > it spins the disk and gronks for a bit, then goes quiet. > > I'm posting because I am reasonably certain, due to age if nothing > else, that these are Model 1 diskettes. Enchanter is a flippy, with As far as I rememebr, a Model 3 will not boot any Model 1 disk (or of course vice versa). There have been disks that were made to boot on both machines, by having a mixture of single and double density sectors on the boot cylinder IIRC, but no nornmal OS will boot that way. So the fact that the disks boot to a TRS-DOS prompt implies they're M3 disks. I have Zork 1 for my Model 1. It was a self-booting disk, no TRS-DOS or similar. And it was copy-protected (nothing that SuperUtility couldn't manage :-)). So again, it sounds like you have a Model 3 version, Since the system will boot other disks and run other programs, I susepct either an unreadable sector on these games disks or something marginal in the disk drive or disk controller. Have you tried to make a ackup of Zork and/or Enchanter? If so, do the backups behave inthe same way? -tony From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jan 27 14:02:00 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 15:02:00 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 vs Model III disk/application compatibility question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 2:14 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> Hi, all, >> >> I was cleaning up around the house and wanted to stash a Model 3 on >> the shelf out of the way.... >> >> I have diskettes, c. 1982, from a friend lying around, so I booted it >> into TRSDOS 1.3.... What it does not do is run Zork or Enchanter. >> >> I have original Zork I and Enchanter disks. Booting up a backup of >> the Zork disk gets me to a TRSDOS prompt. I can take a DIR and see >> the program and the data file there... > > As far as I rememebr, a Model 3 will not boot any Model 1 disk (or of > course vice versa). OK. That makes sense and answers one question I had. > So the fact that the disks boot to a TRS-DOS prompt implies they're M3 disks. I wouldn't be surprised that all but one diskette I have is for the M3. > I have Zork 1 for my Model 1. It was a self-booting disk, no TRS-DOS or > similar. And it was copy-protected (nothing that SuperUtility couldn't > manage :-)). So again, it sounds like you have a Model 3 version, I have a hand-lettered "Zork Backup" disk that boots to TRS-DOS. I also have a commercial original that does not boot. That one is probably for the M1. > Since the system will boot other disks and run other programs, I susepct > either an unreadable sector on these games disks or something marginal in > the disk drive or disk controller. I would guess a bad sector on the game disks, since I have loaded over a dozen programs from other disks successfully. Since someone did ask, I did try to boot drive 0 and run Zork from drive 1. The only change was that the lights had a slightly different cadence to them (since there are two drives), but it looped endlessly and wordlessly all the same. > Have you tried to make a ackup of Zork and/or Enchanter? If so, do the > backups behave inthe same way? I have not yet tried to make backups. I have all the docs so backups should be not difficult to do once I dig out a box of SSSD blanks from the back of the closet. One thing I'm not sure of with the Enchanter original is that since it's marked "side 1" and "side 2", but I don't have the box or the box insert, I can't tell what platform it's for. It _is_ marked "TRS-80", but I don't recall seeing a model number mentioned on the label. The Zork game file is somewhere between about 70K-85K. Enchanter is almost certainly over 80K (I'd have to find a copy to check), so I guess I'm not surprised to see that it overflows one side of a TRS-80 SSSD disk, but I am unfamiliar with where they might have split things. Does anyone else on the list have TRS-80 versions of early Infocom titles? The rest of my originals are Amiga, PC, Mac, Atari ST, Atari 800, and C-64, so I have no experience with TRS-80 versions. -ethan From michaelgreen42 at comcast.net Tue Jan 27 14:29:17 2009 From: michaelgreen42 at comcast.net (Michael) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 12:29:17 -0800 Subject: Silicon Graphics PI 4D/35 Memory near Seattle In-Reply-To: <200901190509.n0J59jJD076599@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901190509.n0J59jJD076599@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <053701c980bd$edcbcae0$c96360a0$@net> Digging though my SGI stuff and found these. Got rid of my PI 4D/35 a long time ago. I have 16x8Mb ram sticks that should max out one of these machines. If interested email me with offer. From vern4wright at yahoo.com Tue Jan 27 14:46:14 2009 From: vern4wright at yahoo.com (Vernon Wright) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 12:46:14 -0800 (PST) Subject: Recommendations for IMSAI-compatible RAM cards? In-Reply-To: <497EAD8D.6090702@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <515571.40439.qm@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Mine runs just fine with Cromemco memory (16K, 64K). I'm in the midst of moving my workshop and a whole bunch of other tasks, but in a couple of months I can look through my box of cards and see what I have in excess. But time isn't available right now. Regards, Vern --- On Mon, 1/26/09, Josh Dersch wrote: > From: Josh Dersch > Subject: Recommendations for IMSAI-compatible RAM cards? > To: "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Monday, January 26, 2009, 10:45 PM > Hey all -- > > Acquired an IMSAI 8080 in half-assembled condition (but the > price was right). I believe that (after doing some thorough > cleaning, debugging, and replacing of old cabling) that > I've got the front panel and CPU functioning correctly. > However, the IMSAI came without any RAM cards so I'm > unable to go any further at the moment. > > I have one S-100 RAM card but I have no documentation on it > and it's missing a couple of ICs (and what they're > supposed to be, I don't know). It's a PSS RAM65. > My internet searches for info confirm that the card does > indeed exist, but I can find no technical information. > > From my research, my understanding is that S-100 RAM cards > are fickle and compatibility with front-panel machines can > be an issue. Does anyone have any recommendations for what > to look out for as I begin my search? Anyone have any > decent RAM cards they'd be willing to part with? > > Thanks! > Josh From Watzman at neo.rr.com Tue Jan 27 15:06:37 2009 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 16:06:37 -0500 Subject: Recommendations for IMSAI-compatible RAM cards? In-Reply-To: <200901271800.n0RI0fi9035859@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901271800.n0RI0fi9035859@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <98351791041A432F9262E941A1F094A1@barry> The best s-100 memory cards will use static memory cards ... the chips will be 2102's (for very old 4k and 8k cards), 4044's, 2114's, 2147's or a few others for 16K and 32k cards or 6116's for 64k cards (some of these chips had other numbers for what were, essentially, the same chip). The best cards are the Godbout / CompuPro cards, which I believe were all static, but quite a few other static memory cards were good also. There are SOME good dynamic cards, I've had excellent success with Cromemco 16KZs, and with the SD Sales Expandoram cards. The problem is that it's hard to know which dynamic cards are good vs. which ones are bad (and the bad are very bad indeed), and there can be a lot of compatibility problems with front panels and DMA. So I prefer to avoid them, but a few of them are ok. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Josh Dersch > Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 1:46 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Recommendations for IMSAI-compatible RAM cards? > > > Hey all -- > > Acquired an IMSAI 8080 in half-assembled condition (but the price was > right). I believe that (after doing some thorough cleaning, debugging, > and replacing of old cabling) that I've got the front panel and CPU > functioning correctly. However, the IMSAI came without any RAM cards so > I'm unable to go any further at the moment. > > I have one S-100 RAM card but I have no documentation on it and it's > missing a couple of ICs (and what they're supposed to be, I don't > know). It's a PSS RAM65. My internet searches for info confirm that > the card does indeed exist, but I can find no technical information. > > From my research, my understanding is that S-100 RAM cards are fickle > and compatibility with front-panel machines can be an issue. Does > anyone have any recommendations for what to look out for as I begin my > search? Anyone have any decent RAM cards they'd be willing to part with? > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 27 15:10:38 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 21:10:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 vs Model III disk/application compatibility In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Jan 27, 9 03:02:00 pm Message-ID: > > As far as I rememebr, a Model 3 will not boot any Model 1 disk (or of > > course vice versa). > > OK. That makes sense and answers one question I had. IIRc, the Model 3 can physically read any M1 disk, although it can't necessarily write them (The M1 used one of the 1771's 'extra' data markers on the directory cylinder, which later disk cotnrollers couldn't write). I cn't rememebr about OS compatibility -- LDOS, which is what I mostly use can read M1 TRS-DOS or LDOS disks on a model 3, but I have an idea TRS-DOS won't. And binary programs generally won't run on the other machine -- almost all the OS routines changed their addresses :-( > I have not yet tried to make backups. I have all the docs so backups should > be not difficult to do once I dig out a box of SSSD blanks from the back of the > closet. Actually, the M3 has a double-density disk controller (1793 IIRC), and by defualt it used double-density encoding on the disks. It can do single density as well, though (although, IIRC, TRS-DOS 1.3 uses double density only). So you want SSDD or DSDD blank disks. The sort of disks that are called '360K' on a PC work fine. Again, IRIC, TRS-DOS 1.3 pretty much restircts you to 40 tracks single-sided. Other OSes let you do anything the drives are capable of. > One thing I'm not sure of with the Enchanter original is that since > it's marked "side 1" > and "side 2", but I don't have the box or the box insert, I can't tell I assume this is a 'flippy' disk. > what platform it's for. > It _is_ marked "TRS-80", but I don't recall seeing a model number > mentioned on the > label. The Zork game file is somewhere between about 70K-85K. Enchanter is > almost certainly over 80K (I'd have to find a copy to check), so I guess I'm not > surprised to see that it overflows one side of a TRS-80 SSSD disk, but I am The M3 is double density, with about 180K per side. Not all of that space is avaiallbe for user programs, of course. -tony From michaelgreen42 at comcast.net Tue Jan 27 15:32:25 2009 From: michaelgreen42 at comcast.net (Michael) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 13:32:25 -0800 Subject: TI/99 stuff near Seattle, WA In-Reply-To: <200901190509.n0J59jJD076599@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901190509.n0J59jJD076599@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <054501c980c6$bfa9dc70$3efd9550$@net> I've got an overabundance of consoles, some boxed, some not. I've also got speech synth carts and even an expansion box (fairly rare and I imagine what most people would be interested in). Make it worth my while to ship to you and its yours. Otherwise some of this will probably end up in the garbage. From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Tue Jan 27 15:39:01 2009 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 21:39:01 +0000 Subject: Silicon Graphics PI 4D/35 Memory near Seattle In-Reply-To: <053701c980bd$edcbcae0$c96360a0$@net> References: <200901190509.n0J59jJD076599@dewey.classiccmp.org> <053701c980bd$edcbcae0$c96360a0$@net> Message-ID: <497F7EF5.7030700@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Michael wrote: > Digging though my SGI stuff and found these. Got rid of my PI 4D/35 a long > time ago. I have 16x8Mb ram sticks that should max out one of these > machines. If interested email me with offer. These will of course also work in an R3000 Indigo, though I do seem to remeber there being something about how many sets you could have though maybe that was 4MB ones.... Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jan 27 15:49:59 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 21:49:59 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Thrift store score: HP LJ4L In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <352864.18125.qm@web23403.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Yeah, but having ream sized (or larger) trays still has that problem. I often find people at work trying to completely fill the trays, and when they do the printer often objects with a paper jam. Not so bad on old printers, but modern printers have the paper go all over the place. I often have to remove 2 or 3 sheets of paper for a paper jam, often tearing atleast one sheet and then am forced to waste time dismantling the printer (ink cartridge, rollers, etc.) just to get the paper out. That's why I just bought myself a Canon BJC-250 for ?21 (?6 + P&P) off ePay. It's the smallest A4 printer I know of and has very few parts where paper can get jammed :) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Tue, 27/1/09, Ethan Dicks wrote: From: Ethan Dicks Subject: Re: Thrift store score: HP LJ4L To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Tuesday, 27 January, 2009, 7:19 PM On Tue, Jan 27, 2009 at 12:03 PM, Eric J Korpela wrote: > On Sun, Jan 25, 2009 at 12:32 PM, Tom Peters wrote: >> At 11:07 AM 1/25/2009 -0500, you wrote: >>> >>> After years of looking at an HP LJ4L I got at the Uni surplus that >>> someone had removed the fuser from, I found a nearly-unused 4L at the >> >> This is valuable? My HP 4L is still in active use! > > Not valuable, I think. Just useful. I'm still happy with mine, apart > from the small capacity of the paper tray and the tendency for jams > when it is filled to capacity. Agreed - I found out long ago that the 4ML didn't like to be packed tight with paper, and it does have a tiny tray. Since I don't print 500 pages at a shot, I never found it to be a painful limitation, but in a larger office environment, ream-sized paper trays are nice to have. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 27 15:01:37 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 13:01:37 -0800 Subject: Recommendations for IMSAI-compatible RAM cards? In-Reply-To: References: <497EAD8D.6090702@mail.msu.edu>, Message-ID: <497F05B1.20521.5D034A10@cclist.sydex.com> Depends on how "vintage" you want to be and the speed of your CPU. For a couple of years, I used the SSM 8K SRAM boards (64 x 21L02)-- but that was on a 2MHz Z80. Later, I used a 64K DRAM board (Digital Research: Computers, I think) that used 4116s and worked all right. What I would not recommend is the early DRAM boards (e.g., the MITS 4K boards). They can be very flakey, even when when they were new. If in doubt, stick with SRAM--fewer timing issues. As another poster has noted, the CompuPro boards were good. Cheers, Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Jan 27 16:34:30 2009 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 14:34:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Recommendations for IMSAI-compatible RAM cards? In-Reply-To: <497F05B1.20521.5D034A10@cclist.sydex.com> References: <497EAD8D.6090702@mail.msu.edu>, <497F05B1.20521.5D034A10@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Would it be that hard to create a new board that used a single 64K SRAM? g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jan 27 17:09:54 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 15:09:54 -0800 Subject: Recommendations for IMSAI-compatible RAM cards? In-Reply-To: References: <497EAD8D.6090702@mail.msu.edu>, <497F05B1.20521.5D034A10@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <497F23C2.5854.5D78C189@cclist.sydex.com> On 27 Jan 2009 at 14:34, Gene Buckle wrote: > Would it be that hard to create a new board that used a single 64K SRAM? Not at all--just a little TTL "glue" (or maybe a single CPLD) should do the trick. Heck, you could use a 512K SRAM and add logic for bank switching and still have most of the board left over. Cheers, Chuck From rcini at optonline.net Tue Jan 27 17:48:42 2009 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 18:48:42 -0500 Subject: Recommendations for IMSAI-compatible RAM cards? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 1/27/09 11:41 AM, "Bill Sudbrink" wrote: > The Compupro RAM series (RAM16, etc.) do a good job for me. > I agree with this. Over the years, I've collected and replaced my various 8k and 16k cards with all CompuPro RAM16 or RAM17 cards. I've had other good and reliable cards, SSM and Vandenberg cards, but they all use odd and hard to replace RAM chips. The thing I like about the RAM16 and RAM17 is that they use 6116 SRAM chips which are pin-compatible with 2716 EPROMS. So, the board can double as an EPROM board. This is what I have in my IMSAI. Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://www.classiccmp.org/cini From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Jan 27 18:05:11 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 00:05:11 +0000 Subject: Silicon Graphics PI 4D/35 Memory near Seattle In-Reply-To: <497F7EF5.7030700@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <200901190509.n0J59jJD076599@dewey.classiccmp.org> <053701c980bd$edcbcae0$c96360a0$@net> <497F7EF5.7030700@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <497FA137.6090900@dunnington.plus.com> On 27/01/2009 21:39, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > Michael wrote: >> Digging though my SGI stuff and found these. Got rid of my PI 4D/35 a >> long >> time ago. I have 16x8Mb ram sticks that should max out one of these >> machines. If interested email me with offer. > > These will of course also work in an R3000 Indigo, though I do seem to > remeber there being something about how many sets you could have though > maybe that was 4MB ones.... It's only 4MB ones that have the problem -- it's a bug in the ASIC on the memory card. You can only put one set of 4MB in a R3K, along with any other size you like, but any other permutation is fine. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From mkr at trs-80.org Tue Jan 27 18:33:25 2009 From: mkr at trs-80.org (Matthew Reed) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 19:33:25 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 vs Model III disk/application compatibility In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <497FA7D5.8090803@trs-80.org> Tony Duell wrote: > IIRc, the Model 3 can physically read any M1 disk, although it can't > necessarily write them (The M1 used one of the 1771's 'extra' data markers > on the directory cylinder, which later disk cotnrollers couldn't write). > I cn't rememebr about OS compatibility -- LDOS, which is what I mostly > use can read M1 TRS-DOS or LDOS disks on a model 3, but I have an idea > TRS-DOS won't. And binary programs generally won't run on the other > machine -- almost all the OS routines changed their addresses :-( The Model III versions of LDOS, DOSPLUS, MULTIDOS, and NEWDOS/80 could all read Model I TRSDOS disks. Model III TRSDOS 1.3 couldn't read them directly, but it did come with a conversion utility. Most programs written after the introduction of the Model III worked on both computers. There were some programs with separate versions, but they tended to be low-level utilities or self-booting games. Programs written before the Model III was introduced were another story. -- Matthew Reed http://www.trs-80.org mkr at trs-80.org From ragooman at comcast.net Tue Jan 27 20:38:17 2009 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 21:38:17 -0500 Subject: Recommendations for IMSAI-compatible RAM cards? In-Reply-To: <497F05B1.20521.5D034A10@cclist.sydex.com> References: <497EAD8D.6090702@mail.msu.edu>, <497F05B1.20521.5D034A10@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <497FC519.9090307@comcast.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Depends on how "vintage" you want to be and the speed of your CPU. > > For a couple of years, I used the SSM 8K SRAM boards (64 x 21L02)-- > but that was on a 2MHz Z80. Later, I used a 64K DRAM board (Digital > Research: Computers, I think) that used 4116s and worked all right. > > What I would not recommend is the early DRAM boards (e.g., the MITS > 4K boards). They can be very flakey, even when when they were new. > > If in doubt, stick with SRAM--fewer timing issues. > > As another poster has noted, the CompuPro boards were good. > Godbout static ram cards work great in my Imsai. Any cards which uses the 6116 static rams work fine too. My SOL20 16K dram cards work fine in mine too. =Dan [ = http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] From sieler at allegro.com Tue Jan 27 19:49:57 2009 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 17:49:57 -0800 Subject: HP's use of DEC equipment RE: Crossing compiling HP3000 MPE on a VAX In-Reply-To: <682955.78302.qm@web35307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: , <682955.78302.qm@web35307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <497F4945.21739.3E750BFB@sieler.allegro.com> Re: > We also had tricked out IBM AS400 living in the MPE Lab for a while, Circa 1979/1980, the MPE lab (building 47U) had an IBM 8100 (IIRC) in one of the small conference rooms (southeast corner). I remember seeing an IBM CE come in to repair the memory after the HP engineers zapped it for the second or third time :) In this case, I think it was being used for reverse-engineering / competitive analysis, not for it's intended use. Stan -- Stan Sieler sieler at allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html From iamvirtual at gmail.com Tue Jan 27 22:27:12 2009 From: iamvirtual at gmail.com (B M) Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 21:27:12 -0700 Subject: Can a TU80 read 800bpi tapes? Message-ID: <2645f9870901272027m409b5146j38086d5248782da9@mail.gmail.com> Can a DEC TU80 tape drive (a 1600bpi device) read 800bpi tapes? The goal is to archive several 9-track tapes I have. The tapes were originally for a PDP-11 system, but I do not know the original tape format (RT? RSTS? DOS? ...). Thanks. --barrym From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Jan 28 09:19:50 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 10:19:50 -0500 Subject: Looking for a lotus smartsuite 3 disk Message-ID: <86F8BD77E38A4B3BAEE4EA7B426DD245@game> I need disk 12 (of 27) of Lotus smartsuite 3 (Win 3.1 era), part # R03380. The contents are something like lotus012.dsk (single file). The funny thing is that this disk cannot be read at all in the drive, wonder what caused that. From jgessling at yahoo.com Wed Jan 28 09:51:43 2009 From: jgessling at yahoo.com (James Gessling) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 07:51:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: BA-302 data Message-ID: <601160.33095.qm@web31908.mail.mud.yahoo.com> My radio shack 150 in one electronic project kit (cat number 28-248, maybe 1976?) contains a part listed as an "Integrated Circuit". Model number BA-302 is listed and that's what's on the part. It's a 7 pin inline package. The text mentions it to be a "ring of three" amplifier. I've been having quite a bit of fun working with this kit, never had one as a kid, but this part has me a bit baffled. Internet searches haven't turned up anything useful. Anyone can help? I'd really appreciate it. Thanks, Jim From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Jan 28 09:58:08 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 10:58:08 -0500 Subject: BA-302 data In-Reply-To: <601160.33095.qm@web31908.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <601160.33095.qm@web31908.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 10:51 AM, James Gessling wrote: > My radio shack 150 in one electronic project kit (cat > number 28-248, maybe 1976?) contains a part listed as > an "Integrated Circuit". Model number BA-302 is > listed and that's what's on the part. It's a 7 pin > inline package. The text mentions it to be a "ring of > three" amplifier. > > I've been having quite a bit of fun working with this > kit, never had one as a kid, but this part has me a > bit baffled. Internet searches haven't turned up > anything useful. Anyone can help? I'd really > appreciate it. I had the 150-in-1 as a kid (and still have it)... ISTR they put the equivalent circuit either in the manual or on the cardboard face of the kit... it's a simple 3-transistor amplifier, and I've never seen anything like it in the wild, but perhaps it was used in FM radios of the day? -ethan From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Jan 28 10:27:37 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 11:27:37 -0500 Subject: Recommendations for IMSAI-compatible RAM cards? In-Reply-To: References: <497EAD8D.6090702@mail.msu.edu> <497F05B1.20521.5D034A10@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200901281127.38776.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 27 January 2009 05:34:30 pm Gene Buckle wrote: > Would it be that hard to create a new board that used a single 64K SRAM? > > g. I have a prototyping board or two around and was thinking along the lines of such an application. With the chips available thse days I suspect I'd probably want to put a lot more than just 64K on it, though. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jan 28 11:00:40 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 09:00:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: BA-302 data In-Reply-To: from Ethan Dicks at "Jan 28, 9 10:58:08 am" Message-ID: <200901281700.n0SH0fIa015276@floodgap.com> > I had the 150-in-1 as a kid (and still have it)... The 160-in-1 also has it. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The Devil can cite Scripture for his purpose. -- Shakespeare --------------- From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Jan 28 10:53:02 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 11:53:02 -0500 Subject: BA-302 data In-Reply-To: References: <601160.33095.qm@web31908.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200901281153.04479.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 28 January 2009 10:58:08 am Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 10:51 AM, James Gessling wrote: > > My radio shack 150 in one electronic project kit (cat > > number 28-248, maybe 1976?) contains a part listed as > > an "Integrated Circuit". Model number BA-302 is > > listed and that's what's on the part. It's a 7 pin > > inline package. The text mentions it to be a "ring of > > three" amplifier. > > > > I've been having quite a bit of fun working with this > > kit, never had one as a kid, but this part has me a > > bit baffled. Internet searches haven't turned up > > anything useful. Anyone can help? I'd really > > appreciate it. > > I had the 150-in-1 as a kid (and still have it)... ISTR they put the > equivalent circuit either in the manual or on the cardboard face of > the kit... it's a simple 3-transistor amplifier, and I've never seen > anything like it in the wild, but perhaps it was used in FM radios of > the day? > > -ethan Interesting that there doesn't seem to be any data out there on this part. If one of you guys finds a datasheet, feel free to forward me a copy and I'll put it in the pile. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Wed Jan 28 11:39:02 2009 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 09:39:02 -0800 Subject: BA-302 data References: <601160.33095.qm@web31908.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000901c9816f$52ffd260$0201a8c0@hal9000> Jim, That part is the same as an NTE-1431. Same 7 pin inline package. I have a PDF datasheet if you want a copy. Let me know and I'll send it offline. Best regards, Steven ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Gessling" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 7:51 AM Subject: BA-302 data > My radio shack 150 in one electronic project kit (cat > number 28-248, maybe 1976?) contains a part listed as > an "Integrated Circuit". Model number BA-302 is > listed and that's what's on the part. It's a 7 pin > inline package. The text mentions it to be a "ring of > three" amplifier. > > I've been having quite a bit of fun working with this > kit, never had one as a kid, but this part has me a > bit baffled. Internet searches haven't turned up > anything useful. Anyone can help? I'd really > appreciate it. > > Thanks, Jim From ian_primus at yahoo.com Wed Jan 28 12:13:50 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 10:13:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: Repair of damaged/corroded gold connector 'fingers'? Message-ID: <305139.98566.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Recently, I've run across some circuit boards with damaged connector fingers. Some are badly scratched and worn, the gold plating almost gone, and others are actually corroded - the copper has corroded, possibly due to previous damage to the gold plating. The circuit boards in question are the ones in Nintendo cartridges, but the same problem applies to any printed circuit board edge connector. The scratched/worn connectors seem to still work, at least most of the time. The corroded ones wouldn't work until I cleaned off the corrosion. Not an easy thing to do - I ended up resorting to Brasso, a brass polish. Now, this is NOT the thing to use to clean edge connectors! DON'T DO IT! It WILL take the plating off. In this case, the plating was already gone, and the copper track underneath was corroded. Cleaning the corrosion off with the Brasso, and subsequent cleaning with alcohol to clean off the Brasso, removed the corrosion leaving a shiny copper track. The board worked fine, but for how long? How long until the corrosion comes back, or the copper oxidizes? Is there any way to repair or replate fingers like this? Obviously, tinning them with solder would prevent oxidization, but this would make that 'finger' much too thick, and risks damaging the connector it plugs into. (Operators loved to "fix" burnt edge connectors on arcade boards like this, and it works for a while, until you go to unplug and replug it, and the destoyed connector no longer mates with the board correctly.) Just something I thought that others might have an input on - I mean, in this case, these Nintendo cartridges are not worth the effort of any complicated repair, but it raised the question in my mind, and I know I've run into this on computers before. So, any thoughts? -Ian From mc at media.mit.edu Wed Jan 28 13:00:18 2009 From: mc at media.mit.edu (Tim McNerney) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 14:00:18 -0500 Subject: Seeking reverse-engineers - Apple II VisiCalc In-Reply-To: <200901281800.n0SI0AUu052577@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901281800.n0SI0AUu052577@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4980AB42.6010003@media.mit.edu> I am looking for volunteers to help reverse-engineer and document Apple II VisiCalc. Besides documenting this for future historians --I plan to give all this work to the Smithsonian-- I'd like to get Apple II VisiCalc running in emulation. Right now this isn't possible because of the copy protection. (BTW the PC DOS version is available on the web, and doesn't have copy protection). I have three versions of the Apple II software. I know one of them still boots (1983?) and have some confidence that the other two versions (1979 and 1981) work too. I have been in contact with both Bob Frankston and Dan Bricklin. Of course you ask, well then why do you need volunteers? The answer is because no one can find the sources. Bob and I plan to dig around his garage when the weather gets warmer, but there are no guarantees, and the 30th anniversary is in October 2009. --Tim McNerney http://www.4004.com From ak6dn at mindspring.com Wed Jan 28 13:04:36 2009 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 11:04:36 -0800 Subject: Repair of damaged/corroded gold connector 'fingers'? In-Reply-To: <305139.98566.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <305139.98566.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4980AC44.9010404@mindspring.com> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Recently, I've run across some circuit boards with damaged connector fingers. Some are badly scratched and worn, the gold plating almost gone, and others are actually corroded - the copper has corroded, possibly due to previous damage to the gold plating. > > The circuit boards in question are the ones in Nintendo cartridges, but the same problem applies to any printed circuit board edge connector. > > The scratched/worn connectors seem to still work, at least most of the time. The corroded ones wouldn't work until I cleaned off the corrosion. Not an easy thing to do - I ended up resorting to Brasso, a brass polish. Now, this is NOT the thing to use to clean edge connectors! DON'T DO IT! It WILL take the plating off. In this case, the plating was already gone, and the copper track underneath was corroded. Cleaning the corrosion off with the Brasso, and subsequent cleaning with alcohol to clean off the Brasso, removed the corrosion leaving a shiny copper track. The board worked fine, but for how long? How long until the corrosion comes back, or the copper oxidizes? > > Is there any way to repair or replate fingers like this? Obviously, tinning them with solder would prevent oxidization, but this would make that 'finger' much too thick, and risks damaging the connector it plugs into. (Operators loved to "fix" burnt edge connectors on arcade boards like this, and it works for a while, until you go to unplug and replug it, and the destoyed connector no longer mates with the board correctly.) > > Just something I thought that others might have an input on - I mean, in this case, these Nintendo cartridges are not worth the effort of any complicated repair, but it raised the question in my mind, and I know I've run into this on computers before. > > So, any thoughts? > > -Ian > I ran across these guys a few weeks back. They have a number of interesting procedural references on all kinds of circuit board repair. They sell a full line of repair and rework supplies, but they are 'professional' quality (meaning reasonably high cost). I haven't used their stuff (yet) but am keeping the info around as you never know. Website: http://www.engineeringlab.com/ Don From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Jan 28 13:12:19 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 11:12:19 -0800 Subject: Repair of damaged/corroded gold connector 'fingers'? References: <305139.98566.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4980AE13.ECAFFD96@cs.ubc.ca> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > Recently, I've run across some circuit boards with damaged connector fingers. Some are badly scratched and worn, the gold plating almost gone, and others are actually corroded - the copper has corroded, possibly due to previous damage to the gold plating. >... > The scratched/worn connectors seem to still work, at least most of the time. The corroded ones wouldn't work until I cleaned off the corrosion. Not an easy thing to do - I ended up resorting to Brasso, a brass polish. Now, this is NOT the thing to use to clean edge connectors! DON'T DO IT! It WILL take the plating off. In this case, the plating was already gone, and the copper track underneath was corroded. Cleaning the corrosion off with the Brasso, and subsequent cleaning with alcohol to clean off the Brasso, removed the corrosion leaving a shiny copper track. The board worked fine, but for how long? How long until the corrosion comes back, or the copper oxidizes? > > Is there any way to repair or replate fingers like this? Obviously, tinning them with solder would prevent oxidization, but this would make that 'finger' much too thick, and risks damaging the connector it plugs into. (Operators loved to "fix" burnt edge connectors on arcade boards like this, and it works for a while, until you go to unplug and replug it, and the destoyed connector no longer mates with the board correctly.) > > Just something I thought that others might have an input on - I mean, in this case, these Nintendo cartridges are not worth the effort of any complicated repair, but it raised the question in my mind, and I know I've run into this on computers before. There is a dip solution one can purchase that does a nickel plate. The bottle is covered in toxic/hazardous/poisonous/special-discard-procedure warnings, however. Never used it, I've just seen it a store. Along simpler lines though, it is possible to leave a very thin solder plate on the bare copper by tinning it, and having a cloth or slightly damp sponge at the ready to immediately wipe off the excess solder. Some skill or practice may be required but it can/will leave just a 'plating', thin enough to be inconsequential to the edge connector receptacle. On the other hand, I have bare-copper PCBs with edge connectors I built as a kid in the 70's that still have no corrosion and are still functioning with no problems. YMMV with climate I suppose. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 28 12:39:47 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 10:39:47 -0800 Subject: Repair of damaged/corroded gold connector 'fingers'? In-Reply-To: <305139.98566.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <305139.98566.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <498035F3.21066.61A7DD93@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Jan 2009 at 10:13, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Is there any way to repair or replate fingers like this? Obviously, > tinning them with solder would prevent oxidization, but this would > make that 'finger' much too thick, and risks damaging the connector it > plugs into. (Operators loved to "fix" burnt edge connectors on arcade > boards like this, and it works for a while, until you go to unplug and > replug it, and the destoyed connector no longer mates with the board > correctly.) Yes, there is a way to refurb the plating. See: http://caswellplating.com/kits/plugnplate.htm Small, fairly inexpensive kits for brush plating. Cheers, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jan 28 13:16:24 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 14:16:24 -0500 Subject: BA-302 data In-Reply-To: <601160.33095.qm@web31908.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <601160.33095.qm@web31908.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3E8FBE3C-3421-4539-B86B-AED6E3D47C1F@neurotica.com> On Jan 28, 2009, at 10:51 AM, James Gessling wrote: > My radio shack 150 in one electronic project kit (cat > number 28-248, maybe 1976?) contains a part listed as > an "Integrated Circuit". Model number BA-302 is > listed and that's what's on the part. It's a 7 pin > inline package. The text mentions it to be a "ring of > three" amplifier. > > I've been having quite a bit of fun working with this > kit, never had one as a kid, but this part has me a > bit baffled. Internet searches haven't turned up > anything useful. Anyone can help? I'd really > appreciate it. I had one of these as a kid. I started out with a 65-In-One when I was about 6 or 7 years old, and got a 150-In-One a year or two later. I absolutely loved those things. I remember having seen a schematic for that chip; I think it was in the manual. Since then, though, I've seen no mention of this chip (or anything related) at all. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Jan 28 13:26:33 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 11:26:33 -0800 Subject: Repair of damaged/corroded gold connector 'fingers'? References: <305139.98566.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4980AE13.ECAFFD96@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4980B169.8697D8A1@cs.ubc.ca> Brent Hilpert wrote: > > There is a dip solution one can purchase that does a nickel plate. The bottle > is covered in toxic/hazardous/poisonous/special-discard-procedure warnings, > however. Never used it, I've just seen it a store. Whoops, should have said tin plate: http://www.mgchemicals.com/products/421.html?PHPSESSID=3ccbef3cfd59dc42022dcd150c59c0bb The above is a Canadian source, shipping to other jurisdictions may be an issue. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jan 28 13:15:03 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 19:15:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 vs Model III disk/application compatibility In-Reply-To: <497FA7D5.8090803@trs-80.org> from "Matthew Reed" at Jan 27, 9 07:33:25 pm Message-ID: > The Model III versions of LDOS, DOSPLUS, MULTIDOS, and NEWDOS/80 could > all read Model I TRSDOS disks. Model III TRSDOS 1.3 couldn't read them > directly, but it did come with a conversion utility. Right. I never really used TRS-DOS on my M3. By the time I'd got it, I was running LDOS on my M1, and anything else was a disapointment :-). So of course I got LDOS for the M3 as well. And of course had no problems making disks that could be read on either machine. > > Most programs written after the introduction of the Model III worked on > both computers. There were some programs with separate versions, but Hmmm... Some of the Radio Shack software packages included disks for both machines, but he programs on them were not quite the same (they were probably uilt from the same sourve with a few conditionals, but they weren't the same binaries). And I have a couple of such packages that are Model 3 only. -tony From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed Jan 28 13:52:55 2009 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 14:52:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: Repair of damaged/corroded gold connector 'fingers'? In-Reply-To: <305139.98566.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <305139.98566.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 28 Jan 2009, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > The scratched/worn connectors seem to still work, at least most of the > time. The corroded ones wouldn't work until I cleaned off the corrosion. For cleaning copper contacts, I like DeOxit. Any well equipped guitar shop should carry it (part of the Hosa line). Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed Jan 28 14:31:25 2009 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 15:31:25 -0500 Subject: SC/MP 8073 addressing query In-Reply-To: <497CFAE4.3050700@stillhq.com> References: <0KDT00MZBOBTBKN0@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <497CFAE4.3050700@stillhq.com> Message-ID: <4980C09D.9040800@verizon.net> Doug if you want the info email me direct. It's scans of relevant parts of the manual. Allison Doug Jackson wrote: > Hi Alison, > > Just a quick re-send in case you didn't get the original request. > > Are you able to shed come light on the configuration bits you > mentioned below? (I was aware of the baud rate bits, but have no > knowledge of the boot from ROM bit you mentioned) > > Also a quick scan of the demo board would be awesome. > > Thanks, > > Doug > > Allison wrote: >>> Subject: SC/MP 8073 addressing query >>> From: Doug Jackson >>> Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2009 09:26:13 +1100 >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> >>> >>> Hi list, >>> >>> I have an interesting question regarding the INS8073 (National >>> Semiconductor SC/MP 3 with BASIC in ROM). >>> >>> Finally, somebody gave me a round tuit, and I have started work on a >>> simple 8073 system. >>> >>> Eventually, it will have 8K of ROM, 8K of RAM, an 8255, and a switch >>> / LED interface. Currently on the board, I have the 6264 RAM tied to >>> the 8073, with no address decoding (ie the CS* on the RAM is tied to >>> A15 on the CPU). Sadly, as a simple test, this does not operate as >>> I would expect. I would have expected that the RAM would have been >>> selected anywhere in the lower 32K or the memory map, and I would >>> have a simple system that would spit out a console prompt. But no >>> luck. >>> >>> Now the question.... The internal ROM is located in the lowest 4K >>> or the memory map. When the CPU is fetching data from the lower 4K, >>> does it assert the NRDS line, and sample the external bus? My >>> belief is that it does not, as the trivial application note that I >>> have seen simply ties a couple of 2114 to the processor, and uses >>> A10 as the chip select. >>> >>> >> >> I built one years ago and pull it out frm time to time. >> >> No, it's less than 4K and yes you do get NRDS. >> Also you need pull up resistors on selected lines to set baus rate >> and boot on rom. >> >> I'd use 2116(2kb) or 2164s(8kB) as they are 8bits wide and really >> save on parts and power over 2114. One 2164 placed at at 1000h makes >> for a tiny sysem. >> >> Finally NIBLE when it starts does a memory check for (Ep)rom at 8000h. >> There are some addresses that are tested for information that have to >> be respected. >> >> If no one comes up with the circuit that National had for the demo >> board they sold I can scan my copy, it's pretty poor but may help. >> The manual >> is just too thick for me to scan or copy. >> >> >> Allison >> >> >>> Any ideas? >>> >>> Doug >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Doug Jackson, I-RAP, MAIPM, MIEEE >>> >>> Principal Information Security Consultant >>> EWA-AUSTRALIA >>> PO Box 6308 O'Connor ACT 2602 >>> Level 1, 214 Northbourne Ave, Braddon ACT 2612 >>> >>> Tel: +61 (0)2 6230 6833 >>> Fax: +61 (0)2 6230 5833 >>> Mob: +61 (0)414 986 878 >>> >>> http://www.ewa-australia.com >>> >>> >>> ============================================ >>> >>> IMPORTANT: This email remains the property of Electronic Warfare >>> Associates - Australia. If you have received this email in error, >>> you are requested to contact doug.jackson at ewa-australia.com or Ph >>> +61 2 62306833 and delete the email. This message is not to be >>> copied or distributed to other parties without the express >>> permission of the author. Any personal information in this email >>> must be handled in accordance with the Privacy Act 1988 (Cth). >>> >>> ============================================ >>> >> >> > > From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed Jan 28 14:34:06 2009 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 15:34:06 -0500 Subject: BA-302 data In-Reply-To: References: <601160.33095.qm@web31908.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4980C13E.8090300@verizon.net> It was used in japanese am/fm radios in the same timeframe. A similar part was the uL703 if memory is still online. Allison Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, Jan 28, 2009 at 10:51 AM, James Gessling wrote: > >> My radio shack 150 in one electronic project kit (cat >> number 28-248, maybe 1976?) contains a part listed as >> an "Integrated Circuit". Model number BA-302 is >> listed and that's what's on the part. It's a 7 pin >> inline package. The text mentions it to be a "ring of >> three" amplifier. >> >> I've been having quite a bit of fun working with this >> kit, never had one as a kid, but this part has me a >> bit baffled. Internet searches haven't turned up >> anything useful. Anyone can help? I'd really >> appreciate it. >> > > I had the 150-in-1 as a kid (and still have it)... ISTR they put the > equivalent circuit either in the manual or on the cardboard face of > the kit... it's a simple 3-transistor amplifier, and I've never seen > anything like it in the wild, but perhaps it was used in FM radios of > the day? > > -ethan > > From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Jan 28 14:56:22 2009 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 15:56:22 -0500 Subject: Recommendations for IMSAI-compatible RAM cards? Message-ID: <01C98160.FA90B1C0@host-208-72-123-34.dyn.295.ca> Message: 14 Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2009 18:48:42 -0500 From: "Richard A. Cini" Subject: Re: Recommendations for IMSAI-compatible RAM cards? On 1/27/09 11:41 AM, "Bill Sudbrink" wrote: > The Compupro RAM series (RAM16, etc.) do a good job for me. > I agree with this. Over the years, I've collected and replaced my various 8k and 16k cards with all CompuPro RAM16 or RAM17 cards. I've had other good and reliable cards, SSM and Vandenberg cards, but they all use odd and hard to replace RAM chips. The thing I like about the RAM16 and RAM17 is that they use 6116 SRAM chips which are pin-compatible with 2716 EPROMS. So, the board can double as an EPROM board. This is what I have in my IMSAI. Rich -----------------Reply: I've got more 6116-4s than I'll ever use, if anybody needs any. Also some Cromemco 64KZ/IIs. mike From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Jan 28 14:57:12 2009 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 14:57:12 -0600 Subject: Seeking reverse-engineers - Apple II VisiCalc In-Reply-To: <4980AB42.6010003@media.mit.edu> References: <200901281800.n0SI0AUu052577@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4980AB42.6010003@media.mit.edu> Message-ID: <4980C6A8.9090406@oldskool.org> Tim McNerney wrote: > I'd like to get Apple II VisiCalc running in emulation. > Right now this isn't possible because of the copy protection. There are cracked versions of Visicalc on some apple mirrors, ie. asimov. I have run Visicalc in an emulator a few years ago from a .DSK image, so I know this to be the case. If I can find the .DSK I used, I will send it to you, but you can probably find it faster yourself. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Wed Jan 28 15:36:50 2009 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 13:36:50 -0800 Subject: BA-302 data References: <601160.33095.qm@web31908.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4980C13E.8090300@verizon.net> Message-ID: <001001c98190$87c1f980$0201a8c0@hal9000> Jim, That part is the same as an NTE-1431. Same 7 pin inline package. I have a PDF datasheet if you want a copy. Let me know and I'll send it offline. Best regards, Steven ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Gessling" To: Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2009 7:51 AM Subject: BA-302 data > My radio shack 150 in one electronic project kit (cat > number 28-248, maybe 1976?) contains a part listed as > an "Integrated Circuit". Model number BA-302 is > listed and that's what's on the part. It's a 7 pin > inline package. The text mentions it to be a "ring of > three" amplifier. > > I've been having quite a bit of fun working with this > kit, never had one as a kid, but this part has me a > bit baffled. Internet searches haven't turned up > anything useful. Anyone can help? I'd really > appreciate it. > > Thanks, Jim From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Jan 28 16:07:12 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 22:07:12 +0000 Subject: Seeking reverse-engineers - Apple II VisiCalc In-Reply-To: <4980AB42.6010003@media.mit.edu> References: <200901281800.n0SI0AUu052577@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4980AB42.6010003@media.mit.edu> Message-ID: <4980D710.6070800@philpem.me.uk> Tim McNerney wrote: > I'd like to get Apple II VisiCalc running in emulation. > Right now this isn't possible because of the copy protection. So are you trying to reverse-engineer the entire application, or just the copy-protection? What are your goals here? Remove the protection? Reverse-engineer the protection to the point where you can modify an emulator to emulate the protection ("bad" GCR, timing hacks and whatnot)? Tear the app apart, documenting absolutely everything? > I have three versions of the Apple II software. I know one of them > still boots (1983?) > and have some confidence that the other two versions (1979 and 1981) > work too. My first step would be to use some form of disc imaging apparatus (Catweasel?) to make a magnetic transition level image of the discs, then write some software to decode that into actual bytes and words. I'm not sure how Apple discs work so you'll have to bear with me here. (I do have a decent amount of 6502 knowledge, though...) I'd start by reverse engineering the boot sector, startup code or whatever. On a BBC Micro disc I'd look at the boot flags, then start tearing the !Boot program/CLI script apart. Move on from there as and when necessary. The theory here is that the disc must be readable in some way -- either it's a "pure" AppleDOS (or whatever) disc, or it's got an AppleDOS boot track and the rest of the disc is some custom format or other. Much as I hate using PCs as an example for anything.. as long as track 0 on a PC disc meets one of the standard formats (e.g. 360K, 720K, 1.4MB), and sector 0:0:1 (cyl 0, head 0, sector 1) contains a valid PC/DOS boot sector (defined as "the checksum is valid and the 0x55AA signature is present") then the BIOS will boot the disc (by loading CHS 0:0:1 into memory at 0x7C00 and jumping to 0x7C00). The BIOS really doesn't care about the filesystem, that's the operating system's job... But like I said above, the amount of work involved is going to depend on what you want. Just reversing the copy protection to the point where you can emulate the protected tracks shouldn't be too difficult. Reverse engineering the entire application to the point where you can specify in great detail how the application works, and all its internal data structures... that's going to be difficult. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jan 28 18:11:35 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 16:11:35 -0800 Subject: Repair of damaged/corroded gold connector 'fingers'? In-Reply-To: <4980B169.8697D8A1@cs.ubc.ca> References: <305139.98566.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <4980B169.8697D8A1@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <498083B7.11009.62D780C7@cclist.sydex.com> On 28 Jan 2009 at 11:26, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Whoops, should have said tin plate: > > http://www.mgchemicals.com/products/421.html?PHPSESSID=3ccbef3cfd59dc42022dcd150c59c0bb > > The above is a Canadian source, shipping to other jurisdictions may be an issue. Datak also sells a relatively inexpensive tinplating kit: http://www.cir.com/parts/prntcirc/prntcirc.htm#tin And I believe that Datak sells something called "Liquid Tin" along the same lines. I've used the Datak stuff quite a bit to finish bare copper boards. Cheers, Chuck From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Jan 28 19:12:15 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 17:12:15 -0800 Subject: Can a TU80 read 800bpi tapes? In-Reply-To: <2645f9870901272027m409b5146j38086d5248782da9@mail.gmail.com> References: <2645f9870901272027m409b5146j38086d5248782da9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > From: B M > Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 8:27 PM > Can a DEC TU80 tape drive (a 1600bpi device) read 800bpi tapes? The > goal is to archive several 9-track tapes I have. The tapes were > originally for a PDP-11 system, but I do not know the original tape > format (RT? RSTS? DOS? ...). >From the TU80 user guide on bitsavers.org, this is strictly a 1600bpi device. You need to find another tape drive for your project. Rich Alderson Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell From mkr at trs-80.org Wed Jan 28 21:24:07 2009 From: mkr at trs-80.org (Matthew Reed) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 22:24:07 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model 1 vs Model III disk/application compatibility In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49812157.6040007@trs-80.org> Tony Duell wrote: > Hmmm... Some of the Radio Shack software packages included disks for both > machines, but he programs on them were not quite the same (they were > probably uilt from the same sourve with a few conditionals, but they > weren't the same binaries). And I have a couple of such packages that are > Model 3 only. That's a good point. Radio Shack continued to target their Model III software for TRSDOS 1.3. In addition to its unique disk format, TRSDOS 1.3 made a number of changes to the function calls (expanding FCB's from 32 to 50 bytes, for example). Fortunately, the other Model III operating systems ignored most of the weirder differences. But it was fairly easy to write a program that worked on both the Model I and III (having written a number of such programs myself). Only a few of the commonly used addresses were different, and a small routine could take care of them. There were some programs that were Model III only, but most also supported the Model I as that market was too large to ignore. -- Matthew Reed http://www.trs-80.org mkr at trs-80.org From ragooman at comcast.net Wed Jan 28 23:55:23 2009 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 00:55:23 -0500 Subject: Anyone have Heathkit catalogs from the late 60's/early 70's -- looking for electronic experimenter Message-ID: <498144CB.9000401@comcast.net> I was hoping to find someone with Heathkit catalogs from the late 60's-early 70's. I'm trying to track down an electronic experimenter which I used as a kid. I don't have a pic or model #, just have a visual in my memory--I should draw this from memory, maybe someone can recall this. Basically, it contained two consoles of blue plastic and a white 'lego' style breadboard and red component bricks. If someone has a catalog, I would like to ask about scanning the page with the description and image of this. thanks =Dan -- [ = http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Jan 29 01:04:35 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 05:04:35 -0200 Subject: Repair of damaged/corroded gold connector 'fingers'? References: <305139.98566.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <260401c981df$e60c36a0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> > Is there any way to repair or replate fingers like this? Obviously, > tinning them with solder would prevent oxidization, but this would make > that 'finger' much too thick, and risks damaging the connector it plugs > into. (Operators loved to "fix" burnt edge connectors on arcade boards > like this, and it works for a while, until you go to unplug and replug it, > and the destoyed connector no longer mates with the board correctly.) Use good quality solder and remove it with solder braid, it will look like hot-air-leveling. From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Jan 29 01:05:19 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 05:05:19 -0200 Subject: Seeking reverse-engineers - Apple II VisiCalc References: <200901281800.n0SI0AUu052577@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4980AB42.6010003@media.mit.edu> Message-ID: <262201c981e0$1640c250$46fea8c0@DeskJara> > I'd like to get Apple II VisiCalc running in emulation. > Right now this isn't possible because of the copy protection. As far as I know, all "brazilian" versions are unprotected :oO From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Jan 29 01:07:58 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 05:07:58 -0200 Subject: Repair of damaged/corroded gold connector 'fingers'? References: <305139.98566.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <498035F3.21066.61A7DD93@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <264001c981e0$73ecdc90$46fea8c0@DeskJara> > Yes, there is a way to refurb the plating. See: > http://caswellplating.com/kits/plugnplate.htm > Small, fairly inexpensive kits for brush plating. This is great, but the current applied may not be good for the integrated circuits on board... From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 29 01:12:58 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 23:12:58 -0800 Subject: Repair of damaged/corroded gold connector 'fingers'? In-Reply-To: <260401c981df$e60c36a0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> References: <305139.98566.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <260401c981df$e60c36a0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> Message-ID: <4980E67A.25115.645980A2@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Jan 2009 at 5:04, Alexandre Souza wrote: > Use good quality solder and remove it with solder braid, it will look > like hot-air-leveling. Or you could use one of the silver ion-exchange plating solutions and (very thinly) coat the copper with a layer of silver. Anyone remember "Cool Amp"? They're still around: http://www.cool-amp.com/ Cheers, Chuck From chrise at pobox.com Wed Jan 28 10:28:06 2009 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 10:28:06 -0600 Subject: GNT 3601 tape punch docs? Message-ID: <20090128162805.GG20244@n0jcf.net> Probably a stretch but wondering if anyone has any info (manual, pinouts, service documentation) for a GNT model 3601 8-bit (1") paper tape punch. It was probably better known in the CNC / automated machining world than in computing but my hope is to resurrect it as a backup punch for copying tapes I use with my ASR-33 and thereby save wear on the -33's punch. The unit has serial and parallel interfaces on DB25 connectors but I do not have any pinout information for those. The serial one I can probably figure out. Unfortunately, the unit is a little more sick than "works OK" seemed to imply from the eBay seller. It has what I believe to be a power supply problem because as soon as you try to punch all eight holes with the front panel test button, the power LED dims and the punch jams, apparently from lack of umph to complete the mission. It could also be jamming to start with and that causes the power drop I suppose. In any case, looking for any docs before I open it up and start digging around. I have written to GNT without a reply so far. Chris -- Chris Elmquist mailto:chrise at pobox.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Jan 28 19:46:20 2009 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 28 Jan 2009 17:46:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: ping for Jim Davis Message-ID: <574199.76156.qm@web65505.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Jim if you're still on this list, please e-mail me w/your current e-mail address. Thanks. From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Thu Jan 29 02:04:12 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 00:04:12 -0800 Subject: Recommendations for IMSAI-compatible RAM cards? In-Reply-To: <497F05B1.20521.5D034A10@cclist.sydex.com> References: <497EAD8D.6090702@mail.msu.edu>, <497F05B1.20521.5D034A10@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <498162FC.8030708@mail.msu.edu> Thanks everyone for all the suggestions and advice. I'll keep my eyes peeled for some good SRAM cards (a few people on the list have offered, so I'm off to a good start!). Thanks again! Josh Chuck Guzis wrote: > Depends on how "vintage" you want to be and the speed of your CPU. > > For a couple of years, I used the SSM 8K SRAM boards (64 x 21L02)-- > but that was on a 2MHz Z80. Later, I used a 64K DRAM board (Digital > Research: Computers, I think) that used 4116s and worked all right. > > What I would not recommend is the early DRAM boards (e.g., the MITS > 4K boards). They can be very flakey, even when when they were new. > > If in doubt, stick with SRAM--fewer timing issues. > > As another poster has noted, the CompuPro boards were good. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > > > > From eric940 at gmail.com Thu Jan 29 02:20:16 2009 From: eric940 at gmail.com (eric) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 00:20:16 -0800 Subject: Annals of the History of Computing: "bitsavers" is referenced Message-ID: Journal issue: 2008, Volume 30, Issue 3 Article: "The Genesis of the Tenet 210: An Early Time-Sharing System" (page 81, specifically) Reference: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/tenet There's no citation/footnote mentioning the supplier of said link/resource. Admittedly, 'tis nice that such a reputable publication (IMHO) references this valuable resource, but would it not be appropriate to notate the source of the author's material (of which I found none)? Or would this bring unwanted attention to the potential copyright issue(s) of the material in question -- which I recall being brought up in an eBay thread of similar nature a week or so back (and what spurred me to comment on this)? While this journal may not have a [relatively] huge circulation (I think - just a guess), it could prove taxing to the bandwidth resources from the host referenced. (This message could prove moot if the provider of the resource was, indeed, contacted by the author before publication of the article.) From evan at snarc.net Thu Jan 29 02:29:14 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 08:29:14 +0000 Subject: Annals of the History of Computing: "bitsavers" is referenced Message-ID: <305072500-1233217748-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-467262826-@bxe245.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> >>> Or would this bring unwanted attention to the potential copyright issue(s) of the material in question I wouldn't worry about it. The readers of "Annals" are almost entirely academic, not corporate. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 29 03:11:49 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 01:11:49 -0800 Subject: Repair of damaged/corroded gold connector 'fingers'? In-Reply-To: <264001c981e0$73ecdc90$46fea8c0@DeskJara> References: <305139.98566.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <264001c981e0$73ecdc90$46fea8c0@DeskJara> Message-ID: <49810255.25566.64C619A8@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Jan 2009 at 5:07, Alexandre Souza wrote: > > Yes, there is a way to refurb the plating. See: > > http://caswellplating.com/kits/plugnplate.htm > > Small, fairly inexpensive kits for brush plating. > > This is great, but the current applied may not be good for the > integrated circuits on board... The way this thing works is that the surface to be plated is connected to the negative side of the low-voltage supply and the brush/cathode is connected to the positive side. I'd probably tack a thin wire (or use some conductive ink) across the entire span of contacts for the plating process and then remove it when finished. There should be no appreciable current induced in any circuit element. Pretty much any other process is going to remove some of the copper contacts. One could even use electroplating to build up the copper on the contacts before electroplating a noble metal. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 29 03:27:34 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 01:27:34 -0800 Subject: Annals of the History of Computing: "bitsavers" is referenced In-Reply-To: <305072500-1233217748-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-467262826-@bxe245.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <305072500-1233217748-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-467262826-@bxe245.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <49810606.2495.64D47B6C@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Jan 2009 at 8:29, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >>> Or would this bring unwanted attention to the potential copyright > issue(s) of the material in question > > I wouldn't worry about it. The readers of "Annals" are almost entirely academic, not corporate. You can say that again. I subscribed to Annals fairly early on and enjoyed reasding it, but got increasingly frustrated by the way articles began to sound like someone's dissertation. I dropped it after about 3-4 years. Cheers, Chuck From jgessling at yahoo.com Thu Jan 29 03:55:50 2009 From: jgessling at yahoo.com (James Gessling) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 01:55:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: BA-302 data Message-ID: <121291.41494.qm@web31904.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Thanks to all for your help. Indeed the schematic is on the cardboard. I've made a LTspice model of it and am trying to understand but I'm just a software guy trying to learn. I've had an offer for the datasheet and followed up on that. BTW, I bought the 150-1 a couple years ago at a flea market for maybe $5. Box is quite worn but inside it had never been used and now that I've got some time I've dived into it. Jim From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Thu Jan 29 06:59:20 2009 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 07:59:20 -0500 Subject: Annals of the History of Computing: "bitsavers" is referenced In-Reply-To: <49810606.2495.64D47B6C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <305072500-1233217748-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-467262826-@bxe245.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> <49810606.2495.64D47B6C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4affc5e0901290459q4e70d2bfh4429a4cfbe34d68@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 4:27 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > You can say that again. I subscribed to Annals fairly early on and > enjoyed reasding it, but got increasingly frustrated by the way > articles began to sound like someone's dissertation. They probably are :-) -- Joachim Thiemann :: http://www.tsp.ece.mcgill.ca/~jthiem From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Jan 29 08:22:05 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 06:22:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: EPROM erase times and lifespan Message-ID: <589811.92003.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Working with EPROMs, one must have an eraser. I built my own a while back, using a germicidal UV lamp tube, a flourescent fixture, a sealed box and a programmable timer. It works well, and I typically can erase an batch of eproms in like three minutes. At least, when I was working primarily with 2732's and 2764's, I could. Now, I've been needing to use higher capacity chips - and these seem to take longer to erase. Five minutes isn't enough for some. AMD 27C010's seem to take closer to ten minutes to erase. My eraser has a drawer that can accept about a foot of eproms (I used a 12" tube). I could probably cram more on there, but I try to keep them centered under the light. So, if I stick a dozen chips on there, of varying sized and types, and 'nuke' them for five minutes, I'll go and blank-check them, and some will be blank, others will be nearly blank (lots of FF's, but some garbage left), and some don't seem affected at all. I've been trying to come up with a correlation between manufacturer and erase time, but it seems to vary. Last time, I nuked four AMD 27C010's that I pulled off of an old LaserJet font cartridge. Three were unaffected and the other was blanked. I worry about leaving the chips in there too long, since I know too much UV can damage them. But at the same time, I wonder about the lifespan of the UV tube - and how many hours it's good for. (I guess I should have checked the package when I bought it...). So, how much UV exposure does it take to damage an EPROM? Is UV exposure cumulative? For example, if I have a chip that's unaffected by five minutes, and I put it back in for another three - is that the same as as running it for 8 minutes total, or do the charges that the UV is supposed to dissapate simply linger? Are CMOS chips harder to erase, taking a longer time than the older parts? -Ian From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Jan 29 08:34:22 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 06:34:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: Repair of damaged/corroded gold connector 'fingers'? In-Reply-To: <260401c981df$e60c36a0$46fea8c0@DeskJara> Message-ID: <988880.40756.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 1/29/09, Alexandre Souza wrote: > Use good quality solder and remove it with solder braid, > it will look like hot-air-leveling. Hmm, I hadn't thought of that. I know I've tried in the past on junk boards, and never was able to get the solder smooth and level enough to make it the same as the surrounding fingers. I usually don't use solder braid, so I didn't think of that. I'll have to try it when I get a chance, but I still would worry that it would make that connector finger too thick. I like the other ideas about electroplating and small-scale plating kits. That might be an option if I really need to fix something that's worth that much time and effort. With the arcade boards, I can tell you the solution I've seen used. It's ugly as hell, but it works. Basically, with some boards, like Pac-Man especially, the tin connector fingers get burnt and badly pitted. After that, even a new female connector won't mate well or work. Tinning them with solder makes them too thick and damages the connector, and sometimes there's not even enough of a contact left to re-tin. Basically, the solution there is to solder a female connector directly onto the male fingers of the board - so the board now sports a female socket that male fingers can be plugged into. Then you take a 'fingerboard' - a thin bit of circuit board with long fingers on it and nothing else, and plug it into the female socket - and now you can plug the arcade cabinet's female socket onto that. Again, ugly, but very functional, and sometimes the only way to save a badly damaged board. This is totally unacceptable most times in computers - not only would finding the connectors be a pain, but this would make the board too long, and it wouldn't seat properly into a backplane, etc. I'll definitely try using solder braid to remove solder on a finger, and see if I can get close to the same thickness. Maybe if you were to mask off the nearby fingers and carefully sand down the solder, you could get it even thinner? I'd be worried about burrs and bumps in the solder that could damage the female connector that it mates with. And it's good to know that replating kits exist - I just wonder - has anyone ever actually used these to fix circuit board fingers? How does it work in this application? I'd be worried about the durability of the plating, and getting a consistent thickness. -Ian From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Jan 29 09:07:20 2009 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 09:07:20 -0600 Subject: Seeking reverse-engineers - Apple II VisiCalc In-Reply-To: <4980AB42.6010003@media.mit.edu> References: <200901281800.n0SI0AUu052577@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4980AB42.6010003@media.mit.edu> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20090129085638.05e74420@mail.threedee.com> At 01:00 PM 1/28/2009, Tim McNerney wrote: >I am looking for volunteers to help reverse-engineer and document Apple II VisiCalc. >I have three versions of the Apple II software. I know one of them still boots (1983?) >and have some confidence that the other two versions (1979 and 1981) work too. >I have been in contact with both Bob Frankston and Dan Bricklin. >Of course you ask, well then why do you need volunteers? >The answer is because no one can find the sources. No matter how many times I hear stories like this, or lived through stories like this, I still shake my head and can't understand how the source code gets lost. All these corporations, all the lawsuits, all the programmers, all the marketing money, and so often no one, NO ONE, preserves arguably the most important bits. - John From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Thu Jan 29 09:20:50 2009 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 15:20:50 +0000 Subject: EPROM erase times and lifespan In-Reply-To: <589811.92003.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <589811.92003.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: the chip docs should give an erase time, iirc the docs would say to get to the clear stage and add x% time to guarantee the chip is set to 1/0 Dave Caroline From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Jan 29 09:23:34 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 09:23:34 -0600 Subject: Seeking reverse-engineers - Apple II VisiCalc In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20090129085638.05e74420@mail.threedee.com> References: <200901281800.n0SI0AUu052577@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4980AB42.6010003@media.mit.edu> <6.2.3.4.2.20090129085638.05e74420@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: <4981C9F6.5020100@gmail.com> John Foust wrote: > No matter how many times I hear stories like this, or lived through > stories like this, I still shake my head and can't understand how the > source code gets lost. I think typically it just gets misplaced, not lost :-) If a company's churning out new products once in a while then it stands to reason that the older, obsolete stuff gets pushed to the back of a cupboard... then buried... then moved to a different cupboard... I bet it still exists in a lot of cases, but everybody's forgotten exactly where, simply because it's been such a long time since they last needed to know. The picture's perhaps a bit brighter these days, because the storage is so cheap now that there's less incentive to dump things from corporate fileservers every once in a while (storing them in the aforementioned cupboard). cheers J. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Jan 29 09:27:46 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 09:27:46 -0600 Subject: EPROM erase times and lifespan In-Reply-To: References: <589811.92003.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4981CAF2.2020309@gmail.com> Dave Caroline wrote: > the chip docs should give an erase time, iirc the docs would say to > get to the clear stage and add x% time to guarantee the chip is set to > 1/0 Presumably more expensive erasers do things in-place - i.e. periodically do a blank-check during the erase cycle? From dave09 at dunfield.com Thu Jan 29 09:31:00 2009 From: dave09 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 10:31:00 -0500 Subject: EPROM erase times and lifespan In-Reply-To: <589811.92003.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <29B3FD676D45@dunfield.com> > Working with EPROMs, one must have an eraser. I built my own a while back, using a germicidal UV > lamp tube, a flourescent fixture, a sealed box and a programmable timer. It works well, and I > typically can erase an batch of eproms in like three minutes. > ... Three minites seems awfully fast for complete erasure. For example, an Intel 1982 databook lists erase time for the 2764 as 15-20 mins at a distance of 1 inch from the lamp (2537 Angstroms, 12000 uW/CM2). This is pretty consistant with what I've observed - I normally bake em for about 15 mins. I've seen some take as long as 30 mins (usually older "fixed program time" devices). Keep in mind that although the output is digital, the actually process of an EPROM is analog in nature - the output is decided based on the amount of charge on the gate. This brings a few important points to understand: 1) Some EPROMS are "more programmed" than others. Early devices with a fixed proramming time per cell normally are saturated, and well programmed. Later "intelligent" algorithms would watch the device, note how much charge was needed to make a 1->0 transition occur in the cell, add a margin and "your done". Much faster - but depending on the equipment, sometimes "less programmed". 2) The comparitor is voltage dependant on most devices. An EPROM bit near the 0/1 threshold may change state with a difference in power supply voltage - Intel spec'd a supply of 6V when using their "intelligent algorithm" because that would raise the comparitor voltage and cause it to require more charge to get a zero bit. This insured that you were programmed "well past" the normal boundary at 5V. You can sometimes read an EPROM that is suffering from "bit rot" by powering it at a lower voltage. A side effect of this is that: 3) Some EPROMs are "less erased" than others. An "erased" EPROM read at 5.2v might not be erased when read at 4.8v ... so just because it all reads FF's doesn't mean it's really erased. The fact that you see some "mostly erased" suggests you are a little close to the boundary. Just like programming, you need to add a margin to insure adaquate erasure. My guess is that "lightly" programmed devices are showing just under the 1/0 threshold after 3 mins, but probably aren't fully erased. You might also want to try and find out the specs for your lamp and see if it's close to a normal eraser, and adjust your distance/time accordingly. Dave -- dave09 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Jan 29 09:42:30 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 07:42:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: EPROM erase times and lifespan In-Reply-To: <4981CAF2.2020309@gmail.com> Message-ID: <842698.62435.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 1/29/09, Jules Richardson wrote: > Presumably more expensive erasers do things in-place - i.e. > periodically do a blank-check during the erase cycle? Hmm, I've never even heard of such a device. Even the professional EPROM erasers are little more than what I've built, a box with a UV light and a timer. I've never heard of an eraser in which the chip was actually connected to anything while being erased. If a machine like this exists, however, it would be quite cool! But probably very expensive, and a pain in the neck to use, as you'd have to tell it what kind of chip you were erasing, and it would need ZIF sockets and all kinds of electronics to read the chips. -Ian From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Jan 29 09:55:21 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 07:55:21 -0800 (PST) Subject: EPROM erase times and lifespan In-Reply-To: <29B3FD676D45@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <606301.52222.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 1/29/09, Dave Dunfield wrote: > > Three minites seems awfully fast for complete erasure. For > example, an Intel 1982 databook > lists erase time for the 2764 as 15-20 mins at a distance > of 1 inch from the lamp (2537 > Angstroms, 12000 uW/CM2). Hmm. Well, either I got lucky with the previous EPROMs, or my lamp is a little more powerful. I don't know the specs on it, I bought it a couple years ago at a pet supply store. It's a 12" germicidal UV tube, the thin kind, what's that, T6?. It's intended for use in pond filters. The EPROMs sit on a specially designed non-conductive UV absorbant insulating surface (it's a piece of wood), right at about an inch from the lamp. > This is pretty consistant with what I've observed - I > normally bake em for about 15 mins. > I've seen some take as long as 30 mins (usually older > "fixed program time" devices). Hmm, that might explain why I have some that just won't blank. I probably need to put them in longer. > Keep in mind that although the output is digital, the > actually process of an EPROM is > analog in nature - the output is decided based on the > amount of charge on the gate. > > This brings a few important points to understand: > > 1) Some EPROMS are "more programmed" than others. > > 2) The comparitor is voltage dependant on most devices. > > An EPROM bit near the 0/1 threshold may change state with a > difference in power supply > voltage - > 3) Some EPROMs are "less erased" than others. Wow. Good to know. I had no idea. I always tried to give them the least amount of UV that they needed to come up blank on my programmer. It's a PC/clone based ISA programmer, so I'd assume that the 5v it's giving the chip is just the 5v from the PC's supply, so I would hope that it's close. > My guess is that "lightly" programmed devices are > showing just under the 1/0 threshold > after 3 mins, but probably aren't fully erased. Very good to know - so far, I haven't had any problems, but I should probably go back and do some more erasing. Hmm, perhaps a programmer adapter with the ability to lower the supply voltage is in order. I've got some experimenting to do. But, yeah, I guess I'll try setting the timer for longer now, to ensure they're good and blank. I was always told that too much UV would damage the chips - I've never left one in for more than say, 15 minutes before. Next time I need to erase some, I'll put 'em in for longer than three or five minutes... -Ian From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Jan 29 10:12:40 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 16:12:40 +0000 Subject: EPROM erase times and lifespan In-Reply-To: <29B3FD676D45@dunfield.com> References: <29B3FD676D45@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <1233245560.31552.26.camel@elric> On Thu, 2009-01-29 at 10:31 -0500, Dave Dunfield wrote: > > Working with EPROMs, one must have an eraser. I built my own a while back, using a germicidal UV > > lamp tube, a flourescent fixture, a sealed box and a programmable timer. It works well, and I > > typically can erase an batch of eproms in like three minutes. > > > ... > > Three minites seems awfully fast for complete erasure. For example, an Intel 1982 databook > lists erase time for the 2764 as 15-20 mins at a distance of 1 inch from the lamp (2537 > Angstroms, 12000 uW/CM2). > > This is pretty consistant with what I've observed - I normally bake em for about 15 mins. > I've seen some take as long as 30 mins (usually older "fixed program time" devices). > Yup. I've found that some devices can take as much as half an hour or more under the lamp in my eraser. Of course, the tube could be going soft... Gordon From dave09 at dunfield.com Thu Jan 29 10:11:49 2009 From: dave09 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 11:11:49 -0500 Subject: EPROM erase times and lifespan In-Reply-To: <606301.52222.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <29B3FD676D45@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <29D95FB75001@dunfield.com> > But, yeah, I guess I'll try setting the timer for longer now, to ensure they're good and blank. I > was always told that too much UV would damage the chips - I've never left one in for more than say, > 15 minutes before. Next time I need to erase some, I'll put 'em in for longer than three or five > minutes... Which is why a timer is a good thing ... I can tell you from personal experience that forgetting a tray of EPROMs in an untimed eraser overnight leads to non- functional devices. The ones I left in for an hour seemed to be OK, but I wouldn't do that on a regular basis - after about the third time I left the tray in overnight, I ripped the timer out of a dryer we were disposing of and made it an integral part of my eraser. Dave PS: Since you don't know the charactistics of your lamp, I'd err on the cautious side ... -- dave09 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Jan 29 10:28:13 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 08:28:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: EPROM erase times and lifespan In-Reply-To: <29D95FB75001@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <336044.8863.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 1/29/09, Dave Dunfield wrote: > From: Dave Dunfield > Subject: Re: EPROM erase times and lifespan > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Thursday, January 29, 2009, 11:11 AM > > But, yeah, I guess I'll try setting the timer for > longer now, to ensure they're good and blank. I > > was always told that too much UV would damage the > chips - I've never left one in for more than say, > > 15 minutes before. Next time I need to erase some, > I'll put 'em in for longer than three or five > > minutes... > > Which is why a timer is a good thing ... I can tell you > from personal experience > that forgetting a tray of EPROMs in an untimed eraser > overnight leads to non- > functional devices. The ones I left in for an hour seemed > to be OK, but I wouldn't > do that on a regular basis - after about the third time I > left the tray in > overnight, I ripped the timer out of a dryer we were > disposing of and made it an > integral part of my eraser. Hehe, yeah, I really didn't want to risk ruining any chips, so when I built the eraser, the timer was top priority. I used the timer out of a junked microwave oven, replacing the horrible membrane keypad with the numeric keypad sawed off the end of a damaged Apple IIe platinum keyboard. So mine even has a nice little VFD telling me just how much time is remaining, a nice little *feep* *feep* *feeeeep* to tell me that it's done, and best of all, the little VFD flashes "COOK" at the bottom while it's running :) Oh, and it doubles as a clock... > PS: Since you don't know the charactistics of your > lamp, I'd err on the cautious > side ... Yeah, hence why I initially experimented with the three and five minutes. That gets most of 'em 'blank', but I think I'm going to try aroud eight or ten minutes next time, to get them 'blanker'. Some chips required two doses of three minutes, others still weren't blank after that. I haven't tried those again yet, but perhaps I need to do more experimenting. -Ian From evan at snarc.net Thu Jan 29 10:30:03 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 16:30:03 +0000 Subject: Annals of the History of Computing: "bitsavers" is referenced Message-ID: <51373294-1233246595-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2082449156-@bxe245.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> >>> I subscribed to Annals fairly early on and enjoyed reasding it, but got increasingly frustrated by the way articles began to sound like someone's dissertation. The staff, a couple of years ago, began encouraging participation from writers outside their normal circle. For example at the 2007 SHOT SIGCIS conference I gave a lecture about the importance of involving actual end users when writing history, and almost everyone welcomed me into the fold. So, while you're correct about the journal style -- the papers aften ARE chapters of dissertations* -- consider the old mantra of "be the change you wish to see." * PS: That kind of vintage computing is just as important as what happens in cctalk, at VCF, etc. Plenty of room for both. Personally I feel these worlds need to trust each other and work together to advance the topic. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Jan 29 10:29:39 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 10:29:39 -0600 Subject: EPROM erase times and lifespan In-Reply-To: <842698.62435.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <842698.62435.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4981D973.1060107@gmail.com> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > --- On Thu, 1/29/09, Jules Richardson wrote: > > >> Presumably more expensive erasers do things in-place - i.e. periodically >> do a blank-check during the erase cycle? >... > > If a machine like this exists, however, it would be quite cool! But > probably very expensive, and a pain in the neck to use, as you'd have to > tell it what kind of chip you were erasing, and it would need ZIF sockets > and all kinds of electronics to read the chips. True. I suppose my primary use is in recycling old EPROMs, so I grab one from the junk box, erase it, then immediately program it. In that scenario, I'd just be setting up the EPROM prior to the erase step rather than after it, so it'd be no more work. In a commercial environment, the usage patterns are probably different. Like Dave I've normally found they need somewhere between 15-30 minutes to erase - it just bugs me sometimes that I might be 'overcooking' the chip by erasing for too long, so the concept of an intelligent eraser popped into my head... :-) cheers J. From toby at coreware.co.uk Thu Jan 29 10:59:20 2009 From: toby at coreware.co.uk (Tobias Russell) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 16:59:20 +0000 Subject: Replacing failed powersupplies on qbus PDP-11s Message-ID: <1233248360.7997.12.camel@spasmo> Hi, I have a couple of uPDP-11 boxes (BA23) with failed power supplies. Being no expert on repairing switch mode power supplies (and to be frank slighly scared of trying), is there any reason why I shouldn't adapt a ATX power supply from a PC to provide the required voltages? Most ATX power supplies offer pretty meaty 5V and 12V feeds plus a fairly small -12V (~0.3A) feed. Will I need to generate a LTC/BEVENT L signal if I go down this route? Finally, does anyone know of any good guides on repairing switch modes? Whilst not keen, I guess I should bite the bullet (hopefully not literally) and learn how to repair them. Thanks, Toby -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jan 29 11:27:04 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 09:27:04 -0800 Subject: Seeking reverse-engineers - Apple II VisiCalc Message-ID: <4981E6E8.7090602@bitsavers.org> > I think typically it just gets misplaced, not lost :-) > I bet it still exists in a lot of cases, but everybody's forgotten exactly > where I respectfully disagree. Once a product reaches end of life, it is disposed of. Unlike entertainment products, which can be resold to the next generation, old software has been perceived as having no commercial value and is discarded either to avoid its availability for legal discovery, when a company is sold, or when they need the space or get tired of paying storage costs for it. I was hoping that working as the software curator at CHM would open more doors for finding old software (esp sources). It has not, with a few notable exceptions like HP. The stuff REALLY is gone. The main source now for old software are the people that worked on it, who kept copies outside of the company they worked for. From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Thu Jan 29 11:34:54 2009 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 17:34:54 +0000 Subject: Seeking reverse-engineers - Apple II VisiCalc In-Reply-To: <4981E6E8.7090602@bitsavers.org> References: <4981E6E8.7090602@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: "The main source now for old software are the people that worked on it, who kept copies outside of the company they worked for." I think thats the only way for my old code to remain in existence. I too have seen the "it must be tidy" types just throw what they dont understand away. Time I dusted off my disassemblers I used to reverse engineer for the day job. Dave Caroline From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Jan 29 11:40:38 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 11:40:38 -0600 Subject: Seeking reverse-engineers - Apple II VisiCalc In-Reply-To: <4981E6E8.7090602@bitsavers.org> References: <4981E6E8.7090602@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4981EA16.8040200@pacbell.net> Al Kossow wrote: >> I think typically it just gets misplaced, not lost :-) >> I bet it still exists in a lot of cases, but everybody's forgotten >> exactly where > > I respectfully disagree. Once a product reaches end of life, it is > disposed of. I have a contact at Getronics, the company which swallowed Wang. He is the last person still supporting old Wang 2200 products and whatnot. In one of many down-sizings of his office, he contacted me and sent me a pallet of manuals, disks, and hardware that he was otherwise going to toss. Unfortunately he has gone silent, so I fear he may have be downsized too. :-( A while back I pressed him to see if source still existed for any of the microcode releases and he said he doubted it, and if it did still exist, he didn't know where it was located. Like Al said, the best hope is that some packrat broke company rules and tucked away a copy as a memento when they left the company. From coredump at gifford.co.uk Thu Jan 29 12:04:56 2009 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 18:04:56 +0000 Subject: EPROM erase times and lifespan In-Reply-To: <842698.62435.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <842698.62435.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4981EFC8.5030400@gifford.co.uk> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Even the professional EPROM erasers are little more than what > I've built, a box with a UV light and a timer. I have such a device, and the timer on it goes up to 60 minutes. I normally run it for about half that, with 2716/2732/27128 EPROMs. -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jan 29 12:16:58 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 13:16:58 -0500 Subject: EPROM erase times and lifespan In-Reply-To: <4981CAF2.2020309@gmail.com> References: <589811.92003.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4981CAF2.2020309@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Jan 29, 2009, at 10:27 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: >> the chip docs should give an erase time, iirc the docs would say to >> get to the clear stage and add x% time to guarantee the chip is >> set to >> 1/0 > > Presumably more expensive erasers do things in-place - i.e. > periodically do a blank-check during the erase cycle? I've never seen nor heard of an EPROM eraser that does this, in nearly 30 years of using EPROMs. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jan 29 12:21:39 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 13:21:39 -0500 Subject: EPROM erase times and lifespan In-Reply-To: <842698.62435.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <842698.62435.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0FBDD50E-0B73-4FA8-BDBF-ECCFAEA93939@neurotica.com> On Jan 29, 2009, at 10:42 AM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >> Presumably more expensive erasers do things in-place - i.e. >> periodically do a blank-check during the erase cycle? > > Hmm, I've never even heard of such a device. Even the professional > EPROM erasers are little more than what I've built, a box with a UV > light and a timer. I've never heard of an eraser in which the chip > was actually connected to anything while being erased. > > If a machine like this exists, however, it would be quite cool! But > probably very expensive, and a pain in the neck to use, as you'd > have to tell it what kind of chip you were erasing, and it would > need ZIF sockets and all kinds of electronics to read the chips. It would be neat, but kinda pointless. Leaving them in the eraser for too long will definitely fry them, but it's not a matter of "five minutes too long and it's toast". I leave chips in the eraser for 20 minutes, and it's good for everything I use, which is usually higher-capacity EPROMs, but sometimes EPROM-based MCUs and UV PALs. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jan 29 12:35:30 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 13:35:30 -0500 Subject: EPROM erase times and lifespan In-Reply-To: <606301.52222.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <606301.52222.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Jan 29, 2009, at 10:55 AM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >> Three minites seems awfully fast for complete erasure. For >> example, an Intel 1982 databook >> lists erase time for the 2764 as 15-20 mins at a distance >> of 1 inch from the lamp (2537 >> Angstroms, 12000 uW/CM2). > > Hmm. Well, either I got lucky with the previous EPROMs, or my lamp > is a little more powerful. I don't know the specs on it, I bought > it a couple years ago at a pet supply store. It's a 12" germicidal > UV tube, the thin kind, what's that, T6?. It's intended for use in > pond filters. > > The EPROMs sit on a specially designed non-conductive UV absorbant > insulating surface (it's a piece of wood), right at about an inch > from the lamp. I have to say I'm curious as to why you'd do this. Nicely- packaged commercial EPROM erasers are available all over the place, and they're cheap. I just bought a really, really nice one (I mean REALLY nice) for ten bucks to replace my beat-up one, and then I sold my old beat-up one for...ten bucks. I have two more in the closet that I bought for similar amounts, at least ten years ago. >> 3) Some EPROMs are "less erased" than others. > > Wow. Good to know. I had no idea. I always tried to give them the > least amount of UV that they needed to come up blank on my > programmer. It's a PC/clone based ISA programmer, so I'd assume > that the 5v it's giving the chip is just the 5v from the PC's > supply, so I would hope that it's close. Keep in mind that all electronic devices are analog...and some of them are specified in digital terms. EPROMs store a bit as a charge on a tiny piece of conductive material floating in an insulator ("floating gate"), and when that charge is above a certain threshold, it's a 0, and if it's below the threshold, it's a 1...so there's a varying amount of charge on that floating gate. Erasing an EPROM drains that charge away by turning that surrounding insulator into a partial conductor. So, you see what happens when you erase them to just below the bit transition threshold. > But, yeah, I guess I'll try setting the timer for longer now, to > ensure they're good and blank. I was always told that too much UV > would damage the chips - I've never left one in for more than say, > 15 minutes before. Next time I need to erase some, I'll put 'em in > for longer than three or five minutes... 45 minutes sticks in my head as the rule of thumb from the 2708/2716 days, but we have no idea of how much UV light your lamp emits. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jan 29 12:36:37 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 13:36:37 -0500 Subject: EPROM erase times and lifespan In-Reply-To: <336044.8863.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <336044.8863.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <633261CE-561B-467E-92D6-DC3EE6A4E818@neurotica.com> On Jan 29, 2009, at 11:28 AM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Hehe, yeah, I really didn't want to risk ruining any chips, so when > I built the eraser, the timer was top priority. I used the timer > out of a junked microwave oven, replacing the horrible membrane > keypad with the numeric keypad sawed off the end of a damaged Apple > IIe platinum keyboard. So mine even has a nice little VFD telling > me just how much time is remaining, a nice little *feep* *feep* > *feeeeep* to tell me that it's done, and best of all, the little > VFD flashes "COOK" at the bottom while it's running :) > > Oh, and it doubles as a clock... Ok, I take back what I said about building that. That's just cool. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jan 29 12:39:19 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 13:39:19 -0500 Subject: EPROM erase times and lifespan In-Reply-To: References: <589811.92003.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4981CAF2.2020309@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 1:16 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jan 29, 2009, at 10:27 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: >> Presumably more expensive erasers do things in-place - i.e. periodically >> do a blank-check during the erase cycle? > > I've never seen nor heard of an EPROM eraser that does this, in nearly 30 > years of using EPROMs. I have never seen that either... the ones I've worked with professionally have had a variety of features including timers, conductive plastic rails at 0.6" spacing for ESD reasons and easy loading, but I've never seen any sort of eraser that applies power to the chips in any way. I myself did some experiments a couple of years ago at the South Pole when I didn't have a proper UV-A bulb (I just had a UV inspection lamp)... I could get the chips to superficially erase, but when I built a rig out of sockets and a trim pot to turn down Vcc to the EPROM for testing, I could reliably read the former contents at voltages below 5V even when the chips appeared empty at exactly 5V. In the end, I gave up on trying to use the lamp I had. Fortunately I had a couple of 1MBit FLASH chips and was able to muddle through, but in the future, I'd probably pack some 27F256s or pack a real EPROM eraser and use ordinary EPROMs. -ethan From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jan 29 12:44:00 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 13:44:00 -0500 Subject: EPROM erase times and lifespan In-Reply-To: References: <589811.92003.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4981CAF2.2020309@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9817836E-3C75-42FA-A697-BDEAB5DC31C2@neurotica.com> On Jan 29, 2009, at 1:39 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I myself did some experiments a couple of years ago at the South Pole > when I didn't have a proper UV-A bulb (I just had a UV inspection > lamp)... I could get the chips to superficially erase, but when I > built a rig out of sockets and a trim pot to turn down Vcc to the > EPROM for testing, I could reliably read the former contents at > voltages below 5V even when the chips appeared empty at exactly 5V. Yup, because the bit comparator threshold is determined by Vcc. Lower Vcc, and you lower the comparator's threshold. > In the end, I gave up on trying to use the lamp I had. Fortunately I > had a couple of 1MBit FLASH chips and was able to muddle through, but > in the future, I'd probably pack some 27F256s or pack a real EPROM > eraser and use ordinary EPROMs. Speaking of which, I've recently become enamored with Hitachi 58C256. I bought a tube of them cheap a couple of years ago and haven't really messed with them until recently. They're very nice chips; I hope to find some more of them at some point. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Jan 29 12:46:42 2009 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 12:46:42 -0600 Subject: EPROM erase times and lifespan In-Reply-To: <200901291800.n0TI0EHv069340@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901291800.n0TI0EHv069340@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 12:00 -0600 1/29/09, Jules wrote: >Presumably more expensive erasers do things in-place - i.e. periodically do a >blank-check during the erase cycle? I would be pretty nervous about trying that. Knowing how solar cells work, and having seen cosmic-ray induced latchups destroy chips, it just seems like begging for trouble putting energetic photons onto a powered chip if you don't need to. Of course, EPROMs are cheap, and experimenting might be fun, but if you do this, I'd start with easily replaceable EPROMS. Shutting off the lamp and doing a blank-check, then turning it back on, would work, as would covering the chips with a UV-shade. I don't see much problem with that. -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 29 12:51:33 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 10:51:33 -0800 Subject: EPROM erase times and lifespan In-Reply-To: <29D95FB75001@dunfield.com> References: <29B3FD676D45@dunfield.com>, <606301.52222.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <29D95FB75001@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <49818A35.18550.66D8FB2D@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Jan 2009 at 11:11, Dave Dunfield wrote: > ... I ripped the timer out of a dryer we were disposing of and made it > an integral part of my eraser. I just use one of those clockwork lightswitch-timers that are used to turn off the lights when you're just getting to a critical piece of code. :) Good idea with salvaged appliance timers, though. Your mention of the clothes dryer jogged an old neuron. My first EPROM eraser was made from a coffee can and an "ozone lamp" from a clothes dryer. I haven't seen one of those is decades, however. Cheers, Chuck From mc at media.mit.edu Thu Jan 29 12:54:42 2009 From: mc at media.mit.edu (Tim McNerney) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 13:54:42 -0500 Subject: Software preservation (Was: Seeking reverse-engineers - Apple II VisiCalc) In-Reply-To: <200901291800.n0TI0EHv069340@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901291800.n0TI0EHv069340@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4981FB72.5050905@media.mit.edu> Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 09:07:20 -0600 From: John Foust Subject: Re: Seeking reverse-engineers - Apple II VisiCalc To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20090129085638.05e74420 at mail.threedee.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 01:00 PM 1/28/2009, Tim McNerney wrote: > >I am looking for volunteers to help reverse-engineer and document Apple II VisiCalc. > >I have three versions of the Apple II software. I know one of them still boots (1983?) > >and have some confidence that the other two versions (1979 and 1981) work too. > >I have been in contact with both Bob Frankston and Dan Bricklin. > >Of course you ask, well then why do you need volunteers? > >The answer is because no one can find the sources. > No matter how many times I hear stories like this, or lived through stories like this, I still shake my head and can't understand how the source code gets lost. All these corporations, all the lawsuits, all the programmers, all the marketing money, and so often no one, NO ONE, preserves arguably the most important bits. - John In the case of Personal Software, I believe Lotus bought them to reduce competition, not to preserve VisiCalc. At the time, people seldom think about the historical significance of source documents. The Intel 4004 schematics would have been lost if it hadn't been for some Intel engineer who realized they needed to be saved. True, there are some engineers who take stuff home and store it in their basement, but in the case of the 4004, Federico Faggin couldn't hold on to any schematics when he left Intel because he was going off to found Zilog and had to protect himself legally. The problem with packrats is that, even when you are unusually organized, like Bob Frankston, you still end up with boxes that are mis-labeled. Even Hewlett Packard has thrown out some important engineering documentation. When the calculator division moved from Santa Clara to Corvalis, the threw out dumpsters full of drawings on their very first RPN calculator, the 9100. --Tim From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Jan 29 12:58:29 2009 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 10:58:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: EPROM erase times and lifespan In-Reply-To: <633261CE-561B-467E-92D6-DC3EE6A4E818@neurotica.com> References: <336044.8863.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <633261CE-561B-467E-92D6-DC3EE6A4E818@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 29 Jan 2009, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jan 29, 2009, at 11:28 AM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >> Hehe, yeah, I really didn't want to risk ruining any chips, so when I built >> the eraser, the timer was top priority. I used the timer out of a junked >> microwave oven, replacing the horrible membrane keypad with the numeric >> keypad sawed off the end of a damaged Apple IIe platinum keyboard. So mine >> even has a nice little VFD telling me just how much time is remaining, a >> nice little *feep* *feep* *feeeeep* to tell me that it's done, and best of >> all, the little VFD flashes "COOK" at the bottom while it's running :) >> >> Oh, and it doubles as a clock... > > Ok, I take back what I said about building that. That's just cool. :) > I'll not only second that, but beg for pictures of it too! :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jan 29 13:21:38 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 14:21:38 -0500 Subject: EPROM erase times and lifespan In-Reply-To: <9817836E-3C75-42FA-A697-BDEAB5DC31C2@neurotica.com> References: <589811.92003.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4981CAF2.2020309@gmail.com> <9817836E-3C75-42FA-A697-BDEAB5DC31C2@neurotica.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jan 29, 2009 at 1:44 PM, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jan 29, 2009, at 1:39 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> in the future, I'd probably pack some 27F256s or pack a real EPROM >> eraser and use ordinary EPROMs. > > Speaking of which, I've recently become enamored with Hitachi 58C256. I > bought a tube of them cheap a couple of years ago and haven't really messed > with them until recently. They're very nice chips; I hope to find some more > of them at some point. Uh, yeah... I meant 28F256s. -ethan From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Jan 29 13:38:37 2009 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 19:38:37 -0000 Subject: Seeking reverse-engineers - Apple II VisiCalc In-Reply-To: <4981E6E8.7090602@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <2F691408767E42E0974241767254E61C@uatempname> cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > > I think typically it just gets misplaced, not lost :-) > > > I bet it still exists in a lot of cases, but everybody's forgotten > exactly > where > > I respectfully disagree. Once a product reaches end of life, > it is disposed of. I can second that disagreement. Everywhere I've worked at, the company cares about the current product. The previous versions may well sit in a code repository but usually that's because no-one cares enough about the disk space to go and recover it. I expect that there are exceptions, but they're few and far between in my experience. Antonio From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jan 29 13:46:25 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 14:46:25 -0500 Subject: EPROM erase times and lifespan In-Reply-To: References: <589811.92003.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4981CAF2.2020309@gmail.com> <9817836E-3C75-42FA-A697-BDEAB5DC31C2@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4E75232F-19D4-4866-9B52-FEBB33AEA336@neurotica.com> On Jan 29, 2009, at 2:21 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> in the future, I'd probably pack some 27F256s or pack a real EPROM >>> eraser and use ordinary EPROMs. >> >> Speaking of which, I've recently become enamored with Hitachi >> 58C256. I >> bought a tube of them cheap a couple of years ago and haven't >> really messed >> with them until recently. They're very nice chips; I hope to find >> some more >> of them at some point. > > Uh, yeah... I meant 28F256s. Yeah I figured as much. :) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Jan 29 13:47:58 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 14:47:58 -0500 Subject: EPROM erase times and lifespan In-Reply-To: <589811.92003.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <589811.92003.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200901291447.59393.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 29 January 2009 09:22:05 am Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Working with EPROMs, one must have an eraser. I built my own a while back, > using a germicidal UV lamp tube, a flourescent fixture, a sealed box and a > programmable timer. It works well, and I typically can erase an batch of > eproms in like three minutes. > > At least, when I was working primarily with 2732's and 2764's, I could. > Now, I've been needing to use higher capacity chips - and these seem to > take longer to erase. Five minutes isn't enough for some. AMD 27C010's seem > to take closer to ten minutes to erase. > > My eraser has a drawer that can accept about a foot of eproms (I used a 12" > tube). I could probably cram more on there, but I try to keep them centered > under the light. So, if I stick a dozen chips on there, of varying sized > and types, and 'nuke' them for five minutes, I'll go and blank-check them, > and some will be blank, others will be nearly blank (lots of FF's, but some > garbage left), and some don't seem affected at all. I've been trying to > come up with a correlation between manufacturer and erase time, but it > seems to vary. Last time, I nuked four AMD 27C010's that I pulled off of an > old LaserJet font cartridge. Three were unaffected and the other was > blanked. > > I worry about leaving the chips in there too long, since I know too much UV > can damage them. But at the same time, I wonder about the lifespan of the > UV tube - and how many hours it's good for. (I guess I should have checked > the package when I bought it...). > > So, how much UV exposure does it take to damage an EPROM? Is UV exposure > cumulative? For example, if I have a chip that's unaffected by five > minutes, and I put it back in for another three - is that the same as as > running it for 8 minutes total, or do the charges that the UV is supposed > to dissapate simply linger? Are CMOS chips harder to erase, taking a longer > time than the older parts? > > -Ian Interesting questions, too bad I don't have more in the way of answer to offer... :-) The eraser I have uses a small bulb, probably intended for use as a "germicidal" bulb in some appliance application, only it's not in a socket, it's soldered in. This came from Jameco or JDR or one of those places. I've been typically leaving chips in there (there are slots for 2 of them on opposite sides) for 15 minutes, and perhaps longer if erasure seemed incomplete as you describe. The only ones I've had trouble with when I try to verify them as blank are ones that show me one or more of the pins stuck at zero for _all_ locations, so I'm thinking they have a problem and that the use of the erasion probably doesn't have too much to do with this. So far I've got stuff from 1702 on up to 27C512 or maybe a step or two further, and have not had any issues besides what I describe above. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Jan 29 13:52:24 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 14:52:24 -0500 Subject: EPROM erase times and lifespan In-Reply-To: <29B3FD676D45@dunfield.com> References: <29B3FD676D45@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <200901291452.25206.rtellason@verizon.net> > Keep in mind that although the output is digital, the actually process of > an EPROM is analog in nature - the output is decided based on the amount of > charge on the gate. > > This brings a few important points to understand: > > 1) Some EPROMS are "more programmed" than others. > > Early devices with a fixed proramming time per cell normally are saturated, > and well programmed. Later "intelligent" algorithms would watch the device, > note how much charge was needed to make a 1->0 transition occur in the > cell, add a margin and "your done". Much faster - but depending on the > equipment, sometimes "less programmed". I wonder if this has any effect on the longevity of what's stored on them? > 2) The comparitor is voltage dependant on most devices. > > An EPROM bit near the 0/1 threshold may change state with a difference in > power supply voltage - Intel spec'd a supply of 6V when using their > "intelligent algorithm" because that would raise the comparitor voltage and > cause it to require more charge to get a zero bit. This insured that you > were programmed "well past" the normal boundary at 5V. > > You can sometimes read an EPROM that is suffering from "bit rot" by > powering it at a lower voltage. Ah. Interesting to know, I'll have to make it a point to remember that. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 29 13:34:18 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 19:34:18 +0000 (GMT) Subject: EPROM erase times and lifespan In-Reply-To: <842698.62435.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> from "Mr Ian Primus" at Jan 29, 9 07:42:30 am Message-ID: > > --- On Thu, 1/29/09, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > Presumably more expensive erasers do things in-place - i.e. > > periodically do a blank-check during the erase cycle? > > Hmm, I've never even heard of such a device. Even the professional > EPROM erasers are little more than what I've built, a box with a UV > light and a timer. I've never heard of an eraser in which the chip was > actually connected to anything while being erased. > > If a machine like this exists, however, it would be quite cool! But > probably very expensive, and a pain in the neck to use, as you'd have to > tell it what kind of chip you were erasing, and it would need ZIF > sockets and all kinds of electronics to read the chips. I've never seen a commerical one (but then I've never seriously looked), ut I am pretty sure there was a design for ome in one of the magazines over here years ago. Probably Elektor. Given the time, it probaly only worked with 2764/27128/27256 devices which have essentially the same pinout, so telling it what sort of device it was erasing is not a problem. >From what I rememebr, the cirucit just read through all the addresses of the EPROM until all of them read as FF. And then geve times more erasure time. In other words what you expect. I think it was built from TTL (no microcotnroller, no PLDs of any type), so it should still be possible to make one. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 29 13:22:07 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 19:22:07 +0000 (GMT) Subject: GNT 3601 tape punch docs? In-Reply-To: <20090128162805.GG20244@n0jcf.net> from "Chris Elmquist" at Jan 28, 9 10:28:06 am Message-ID: > > Probably a stretch but wondering if anyone has any info (manual, pinouts, > service documentation) for a GNT model 3601 8-bit (1") paper tape punch. Alas not. I have the Model 34 punch mechanism manual, but I doubt that'll be much use. > > It was probably better known in the CNC / automated machining world than > in computing but my hope is to resurrect it as a backup punch for copying > tapes I use with my ASR-33 and thereby save wear on the -33's punch. I suspect it'll be considerably faster than the ASR33 too ... > > The unit has serial and parallel interfaces on DB25 connectors but I do > not have any pinout information for those. The serial one I can probably > figure out. The parallel interface on the Facit 4070 became a de-facto standard for punchs. I would see if any of the signals matched up with that one, if they do, it's a fair bet that it's that interface. > > Unfortunately, the unit is a little more sick than "works OK" seemed > to imply from the eBay seller. It has what I believe to be a power S what's new :-) > supply problem because as soon as you try to punch all eight holes with > the front panel test button, the power LED dims and the punch jams, What type of mechanism does this punch use? In my experience there are 2 basic types : 1) Solenoids to driectly operate the punch pins (that is, the punching force comes entirely from the solenoid), and a (stepper) motor to move the tape. For example the Facit 4070 2) A continuously rotating camshaft (normally with a mains-powered motor). The solenoids operate linkages (or clutches) to operate the punch pins, the punching force comes form the motor, not the solenoids. Anther solenoid opeates the tape feed mechanism, again the power comes from the motor. For example the Teletype BRPE, Tally 420, etc. Needless to say the solenoids in the second type are much smaller and take much less current. > apparently from lack of umph to complete the mission. It could also be > jamming to start with and that causes the power drop I suppose. Can you tuen things by hand (power off, of course) and operate the solenoids by hand to see if the mechanism can be got to work? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jan 29 13:49:50 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 19:49:50 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Replacing failed powersupplies on qbus PDP-11s In-Reply-To: <1233248360.7997.12.camel@spasmo> from "Tobias Russell" at Jan 29, 9 04:59:20 pm Message-ID: > Finally, does anyone know of any good guides on repairing switch modes? > Whilst not keen, I guess I should bite the bullet (hopefully not > literally) and learn how to repair them. I've repaired SMPUs... The first one terrified me, now I am still cautious, but I will do them. Until you get some expernince, don't even think of repairing a PSU without a scheamtic. There are several difference circuits, the control circuitryt may be on the mains side or the output side of the 'isolation barrier' for example, and not realising whcih is is a recipe for giving yourself a possibly fatal shock amd more importatnly damaging the machine. (Yes I ahve got that the right way round. There are many more hackers than classic computer out there...) There used to be a 'repair guide to SMPSUs' (or some similar title) as part of the Usenet sci.electronics.repair FAQ. That is worth trying to find and read. Also, if you're in the UK, try reading 'Television' magazine from around 1985 onwards (or maybe a bit before that). Many TVs of that period used standard-ish SMPSU circuits, and the repair methods are much the same for computer supplies. In general, stanr by looking at the fuse. If it has blown violently (shatered or blackened glass), suspect a major short on the mains side of the PSU. If it's a rectifier diode, then most likely it was not damaged by anything else, and replacing it will get the supply working again. If the chopper transistor has shorted (very common, alas), then it may well have been damafgd by somthing else. Maybe a shorted rectifier or capacitor on the secondary side (but the protection circuit _should_ cope with that), maybe a problem with the snubber network, maybe shorted turns in the chopper transformer (A replacement is avialalbe 'locally' as the manuals say, where 'locally' is either a misprint for luckily, or the name of an oscure Welsh village :-)). If the fuse is OK, and the supply is 'tweeting' (trying to start up, then shutting down, and repeating), then the problem could be a short on the scondary side, it may be a fault in the voltage regulation loop (so that the crowbar is tripping, shorting out the supply and shutting things down), or maybe an open-circuit or high ESR capacitor. The last is very common, some people who go in for 'lucky dip servicing' just test all the elctrolytics in the SMPSU with an ESR meter and replace any that seem a little high. If the fuse is OK and the supply seeems dead, then probably the startup circuit has failed. In smaller supplies, this is often a high-value resistor (220K or so) from the +ve side of the mains smoothing capacitor into the depths of the chopper circuit. It oftne fails open-circuit. If you can find it, test it. Beware of the last fault. Some SMPSUs don't have bleeder resistors on the mains smoothing capacitor, relying on the chopper circuit to discharge them. If this isn't running for any reason, the capacitor stays charged and will zap you. Now how do you think UI found that out :-) -tony From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 29 11:24:46 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 09:24:46 -0800 Subject: Annals of the History of Computing: "bitsavers" is referenced In-Reply-To: <51373294-1233246595-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2082449156-@bxe245.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <51373294-1233246595-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-2082449156-@bxe245.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <498175DE.30335.6689809E@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Jan 2009 at 16:30, Evan Koblentz wrote: > * PS: That kind of vintage computing is just as important as what > happens in cctalk, at VCF, etc. Plenty of room for both. Personally I > feel these worlds need to trust each other and work together to > advance the topic. Well, checking to see when I subscribed to Annals was useful in a way. I had to dig through some of my old publications and discovered two things--first, that I had Issue 1 of Kilobaud (I don't remember it at all) and that I'd subscribed to Circuit Cellar Ink for a couple of years (I don't remember doing that at all, but there's my name on the mailing label). We ought to outlaw time--it rots your brain. :) Cheers, Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Jan 29 14:49:29 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 12:49:29 -0800 Subject: Repair of damaged/corroded gold connector 'fingers'? References: <988880.40756.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49821659.E5619680@cs.ubc.ca> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > --- On Thu, 1/29/09, Alexandre Souza wrote: > > > Use good quality solder and remove it with solder braid, > > it will look like hot-air-leveling. > > Hmm, I hadn't thought of that. I know I've tried in the past on junk boards, and never was able to get the solder smooth and level enough to make it the same as the surrounding fingers. I usually don't use solder braid, so I didn't think of that. I'll have to try it when I get a chance, but I still would worry that it would make that connector finger too thick. ... > I'll definitely try using solder braid to remove solder on a finger, and see if I can get close to the same thickness. Maybe if you were to mask off the nearby fingers and carefully sand down the solder, you could get it even thinner? I'd be worried about burrs and bumps in the solder that could damage the female connector that it mates with. The previously-mentioned quick wipe with a cloth or sponge may leave a thinner and smoother surface than using solder braid. Secure the PCB so it doesn't move, soldering iron in one hand, cloth/sponge poised next to the area to be wiped in the other hand. Dry cotton cloth or warm, lightly damp cloth or sponge. From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Thu Jan 29 14:52:11 2009 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (Stephane Tsacas) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 21:52:11 +0100 Subject: Tektronix 4014-1 & unknown cards Message-ID: Hi, I just bought a Tektronix 4014-1, almost unused, for 10 euros ! The guy who sold it to me told me that it was connected to a "computer" which was located under a desk. He had removed the cards of this "computer", and had them stored, he gave them to me with the 4014. The inside of the 4014 and those unkown to me cards are displayed there : http://picasaweb.google.fr/sur.le.tas/Tektronix40141?feat=directlink (the "loupe" button on the top right might be useful). Also, in the 4014 docs, it seems I have one extra cards in the 4014, maybe the first one from the left ? Any idea what the other cards are ? Thanks -- Stephane Paris, France. From madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com Thu Jan 29 15:18:19 2009 From: madcrow.maxwell at gmail.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 16:18:19 -0500 Subject: Annals of the History of Computing: "bitsavers" is referenced Message-ID: <8dd2d95c0901291318r53af155fpfe2bf63a79255922@mail.gmail.com> Ye gads... If that's the leading publication on Computer History, it looks like the market could stand another. Something more along the lines of the excellent UK magazine "Retro Gamer" perhaps, with articles written by (and for) normal (if a bit fannish) humans and lots of pictures of old hardware and stuff. You could call it "Classic Bits" or something actually catchy. I'll bet the inhabitants of this list could cook up a better product almost overnight. Mike From evan at snarc.net Thu Jan 29 15:27:30 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 16:27:30 -0500 Subject: Annals of the History of Computing: "bitsavers" is referenced In-Reply-To: <8dd2d95c0901291318r53af155fpfe2bf63a79255922@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <003001c98258$65641300$0301a8c0@evan> >> I'll bet the inhabitants of this list could cook up a better product almost overnight. What a dumb comment. How can you compare a glossy fanboy gamer magazine to an academic journal? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Michael Kerpan Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 4:18 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Annals of the History of Computing: "bitsavers" is referenced Ye gads... If that's the leading publication on Computer History, it looks like the market could stand another. Something more along the lines of the excellent UK magazine "Retro Gamer" perhaps, with articles written by (and for) normal (if a bit fannish) humans and lots of pictures of old hardware and stuff. You could call it "Classic Bits" or something actually catchy. I'll bet the inhabitants of this list could cook up a better product almost overnight. Mike From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Jan 29 15:18:32 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 21:18:32 +0000 Subject: EPROM erase times and lifespan In-Reply-To: <29D95FB75001@dunfield.com> References: <29B3FD676D45@dunfield.com> <29D95FB75001@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <49821D28.9070506@dunnington.plus.com> On 29/01/2009 16:11, Dave Dunfield wrote: >> But, yeah, I guess I'll try setting the timer for longer now, to ensure they're good and blank. I >> was always told that too much UV would damage the chips - I've never left one in for more than say, >> 15 minutes before. Next time I need to erase some, I'll put 'em in for longer than three or five >> minutes... > > Which is why a timer is a good thing ... I can tell you from personal experience > that forgetting a tray of EPROMs in an untimed eraser overnight leads to non- > functional devices. The ones I left in for an hour seemed to be OK, but I wouldn't > do that on a regular basis - after about the third time I left the tray in > overnight, I ripped the timer out of a dryer we were disposing of and made it an > integral part of my eraser. Yup, my home-made eraser uses a timer and my bought (by someone else, I merely inherited it) also has a timer. And despite having different tubes, they both take about the same time to erase typical EPROMs - around 20 minutes is what I usually give. I remember in the dim and distant past being told that you can sometimes recover over-erased EPROMs by baking them in an oven. Maybe that was just 1702s or some similarly ancient device, I've never needed to find out. And to answer Ian's other question, yes the UV exposure is cumulative, and giving 5 minutes followed by three minutes is exactly the same as giving one exposure of 8 minutes. What you're doing is exciting the atoms in a floating insulated gate so the electrons leak away, and the longer the exposure, the more leak away. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Jan 29 15:35:13 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 21:35:13 +0000 Subject: Replacing failed powersupplies on qbus PDP-11s In-Reply-To: <1233248360.7997.12.camel@spasmo> References: <1233248360.7997.12.camel@spasmo> Message-ID: <49822111.1050000@dunnington.plus.com> On 29/01/2009 16:59, Tobias Russell wrote: > I have a couple of uPDP-11 boxes (BA23) with failed power supplies. > Being no expert on repairing switch mode power supplies (and to be frank > slighly scared of trying), is there any reason why I shouldn't adapt a > ATX power supply from a PC to provide the required voltages? > > Most ATX power supplies offer pretty meaty 5V and 12V feeds plus a > fairly small -12V (~0.3A) feed. > > Will I need to generate a LTC/BEVENT L signal if I go down this route? Yes, you will, although (a) it's not hard, and (b) you could simply add a timer card that does it, like a KWV11. We had this discussion very recently, over a BA11-V box. However, that's not all you need. There are two distinct bus signals that tell the CPU (and potentially other devices) that the power is good. There's one to say the AC supply to the PSU is good (BPOK) and another to say the DC is good (BDCOK); these are essential to some processors for a clean startup and are used to control the CPU shutdown and power-fail/restart. > Finally, does anyone know of any good guides on repairing switch modes? > Whilst not keen, I guess I should bite the bullet (hopefully not > literally) and learn how to repair them. Tony :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From toby at coreware.co.uk Thu Jan 29 15:48:49 2009 From: toby at coreware.co.uk (Tobias Russell) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 21:48:49 +0000 Subject: Replacing failed powersupplies on qbus PDP-11s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1233265729.7997.35.camel@spasmo> Hi Tony, Thanks for the excellent SMPSU 101. I'm beginning to wish I hadn't lounged in bed instead of attending the power electronics course at university (Monday 9am lectures were always going to be a mistake). Thanks, Toby On Thu, 2009-01-29 at 19:49 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > > Finally, does anyone know of any good guides on repairing switch modes? > > Whilst not keen, I guess I should bite the bullet (hopefully not > > literally) and learn how to repair them. > > I've repaired SMPUs... The first one terrified me, now I am still > cautious, but I will do them. > > Until you get some expernince, don't even think of repairing a PSU > without a scheamtic. There are several difference circuits, the control > circuitryt may be on the mains side or the output side of the 'isolation > barrier' for example, and not realising whcih is is a recipe for giving > yourself a possibly fatal shock amd more importatnly damaging the > machine. (Yes I ahve got that the right way round. There are many more > hackers than classic computer out there...) > > There used to be a 'repair guide to SMPSUs' (or some similar title) as > part of the Usenet sci.electronics.repair FAQ. That is worth trying to > find and read. > > Also, if you're in the UK, try reading 'Television' magazine from around > 1985 onwards (or maybe a bit before that). Many TVs of that period used > standard-ish SMPSU circuits, and the repair methods are much the same for > computer supplies. > > In general, stanr by looking at the fuse. If it has blown violently > (shatered or blackened glass), suspect a major short on the mains side of > the PSU. If it's a rectifier diode, then most likely it was not damaged > by anything else, and replacing it will get the supply working again. If > the chopper transistor has shorted (very common, alas), then it may well > have been damafgd by somthing else. Maybe a shorted rectifier or > capacitor on the secondary side (but the protection circuit _should_ cope > with that), maybe a problem with the snubber network, maybe shorted turns > in the chopper transformer (A replacement is avialalbe 'locally' as the > manuals say, where 'locally' is either a misprint for luckily, or the > name of an oscure Welsh village :-)). > > If the fuse is OK, and the supply is 'tweeting' (trying to start up, then > shutting down, and repeating), then the problem could be a short on the > scondary side, it may be a fault in the voltage regulation loop (so that > the crowbar is tripping, shorting out the supply and shutting things > down), or maybe an open-circuit or high ESR capacitor. The last is very > common, some people who go in for 'lucky dip servicing' just test all the > elctrolytics in the SMPSU with an ESR meter and replace any that seem a > little high. > > If the fuse is OK and the supply seeems dead, then probably the startup > circuit has failed. In smaller supplies, this is often a high-value > resistor (220K or so) from the +ve side of the mains smoothing capacitor > into the depths of the chopper circuit. It oftne fails open-circuit. If > you can find it, test it. > > Beware of the last fault. Some SMPSUs don't have bleeder resistors on the > mains smoothing capacitor, relying on the chopper circuit to discharge > them. If this isn't running for any reason, the capacitor stays charged > and will zap you. Now how do you think UI found that out :-) > > -tony > -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Jan 29 15:49:20 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 21:49:20 +0000 Subject: EPROM erase times and lifespan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49822460.7020008@philpem.me.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > I've never seen a commerical one (but then I've never seriously looked), > ut I am pretty sure there was a design for ome in one of the magazines > over here years ago. Probably Elektor. Given the time, it > probaly only worked with 2764/27128/27256 devices which have essentially > the same pinout, so telling it what sort of device it was erasing is not > a problem. Rietjens, A.: Intelligent EPROM Eraser. Elektor Electronics, June 1994, p.44-46. It handles the more common 28-pin EPROMs -- 2764, *128, *256, *512. Can't say I'd actually bother building and using one, though. 15 minutes is usually more than enough for most EPROMs and MCUs. ISTR someone asked why higher-capacity chips take longer to erase. Newer chips use smaller transistors -- the smaller the transistors, the smaller the "floating gate" is, and the less SiO2 there is to be hit by the UV. Less area = less energy absorbed = less charge leakage = longer erase time. >>From what I rememebr, the cirucit just read through all the addresses of > the EPROM until all of them read as FF. And then geve times more > erasure time. In other words what you expect. I think it was built from > TTL (no microcotnroller, no PLDs of any type), so it should still be > possible to make one. From the article: "The contents of the EPROM are continuously read, until all cells read FFh. [...] Once all cells read FFh, the lamp is left on for about one minute. This is done to make sure all cells are properly cleared, including those which are at an undefined state between erased and still programmed." -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From blstuart at bellsouth.net Thu Jan 29 15:51:02 2009 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 21:51:02 +0000 Subject: Annals of the History of Computing: "bitsavers" is referenced In-Reply-To: <8dd2d95c0901291318r53af155fpfe2bf63a79255922@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <012920092151.7678.498224C60008D9E400001DFE22216125569B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> > articles written by (and for) normal (if a bit fannish) humans and > lots of pictures of old hardware and stuff. You could call it "Classic > Bits" or something actually catchy. I'll bet the inhabitants of this > list could cook up a better product almost overnight. I guess it depends on how you define better. Maybe I'm not normal, but I for one would like to see some of the conversations here have more of the character of AHC and rather less of the "what was the first...?" and "A was so much better than B." Even endless discussions of how to archive floppies are more useful and interesting in the early stages when they're focused on physics and engineering. By the time they digress to the relative virtues and disasters in FPGAs or XML, there's not much reason to keep reading the thread. Just 20 milli-dollars from one who keeps a foot in both the industrial and academic worlds. BLS From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jan 29 15:56:38 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 13:56:38 -0800 Subject: Annals of the History of Computing: "bitsavers" is referenced Message-ID: <49822616.5040307@bitsavers.org> > Ye gads... If that's the leading publication on Computer History, it > looks like the market could stand another. Something more along the > lines of the excellent UK magazine "Retro Gamer" perhaps, with > articles written by (and for) normal (if a bit fannish) humans and > lots of pictures of old hardware and stuff. One thing I have learned working at a museum is there is a lot more to the discipline of the history of computing than being a fan and having nostalgia for the subject. I was fortunate to have the chance to have long talks with Doron Swade on what it is like to be a curator at an institution that has existed for hundreds of years, and the responsibility that is involved with that position. There was a very good article on the problems of creating an institution to preserve computing history (in particular, the Charles Babbage Institute) "Arthur Norberg, the Charles Babbage Institute, and the History of Computing" in the Oct-Dec 2007 issue of the Annals, in particular, the collections policy and focus that they created at CBI. "Retrocomputing", nostalga, and eye candy seem to be more of what you are interested in, than the discipline of historical preservation and interpretation, which is where the Annals and other journals on the history of technology are focused. From trag at io.com Thu Jan 29 16:25:36 2009 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 16:25:36 -0600 (CST) Subject: Seeking reverse-engineers - Apple II VisiCalc In-Reply-To: <200901292209.n0TM9KDF073989@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901292209.n0TM9KDF073989@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 09:07:20 -0600 >From: John Foust >Subject: Re: Seeking reverse-engineers - Apple II VisiCalc > At 01:00 PM 1/28/2009, Tim McNerney wrote: > > >> >I am looking for volunteers to help reverse-engineer and document >> Apple II VisiCalc. >> >I have three versions of the Apple II software. I know one of them >> still boots (1983?) >> >and have some confidence that the other two versions (1979 and >> 1981) work too. >> >I have been in contact with both Bob Frankston and Dan Bricklin. >> >Of course you ask, well then why do you need volunteers? >> >The answer is because no one can find the sources. >> > > No matter how many times I hear stories like this, or lived through > stories like this, I still shake my head and can't understand how the > source code gets lost. All these corporations, all the lawsuits, all > the programmers, all the marketing money, and so often no one, NO ONE, > preserves arguably the most important bits. What I find particularly irritating, is that the loss of the source code, arguably, defeats the implicit reason that copyright and patent protection exists in the first place. The U.S. constitution states: "To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;" Now one could argue that securing the exclusive rights promotes progress all by itself. But the fact that it is meant to be for a limited time, implies to me that at some point the full benefit of that advancement should become available to everybody. If no copy of the source code is required to be filed with the government, then the copyright and/or patent laws are not securing the benefits of that progress for society at the end of the exclusive period. Patents have become similarly lame. Chips get patented with no description language at any level required to be filed. Sigh. Bad congress. Bad bad congress. No cookie. Jeff Walther From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Thu Jan 29 17:07:15 2009 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 15:07:15 -0800 Subject: EPROM erase times and lifespan References: <589811.92003.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4981CAF2.2020309@gmail.com> Message-ID: <003f01c98266$5384b190$0201a8c0@hal9000> Ethan ( et al ); Never ever power up an EPROM fresh out of the eraser. If the eraser is putting out enough UV to actually do it's job, the EPROM gets really frikkin hot, and the die is way the hell past the safe operating temperature for the device. Also, just as we had a " metal migration " problem with fuse PROMs that would heal when enough metal re-grew the fuse, EPROMs have a " charge migration " problem. Insufficient UV erasure will not bleed all of the charge out of the cell and enough charge will sneak back in to make the cell a "zero" again ( if that was the state before the erasure ) or it will be fuzzy ( not quite one or zero, depending on Vcc ) as some of the guys here have observed. We had hundreds ( literally ) of industrial strength UV erasures and still had problems. We finally had to have our CAL Lab test and post stickers on each device because the UV output was all over the place. Plus the position and distance to the lamp made a big difference. The range seemed to be between 30 minutes to an hour to assure the device really was erased. Devices that would not totally erase in that time were sh!t-canned and erasers that would need more than an hour would have the UV tube replaced. All of our erasers had conductive foam on the bottom of the trays. Best regards, Steven > > On Jan 29, 2009, at 10:27 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> Presumably more expensive erasers do things in-place - i.e. periodically > >> do a blank-check during the erase cycle? > > > > I've never seen nor heard of an EPROM eraser that does this, in nearly 30 > > years of using EPROMs. > > I have never seen that either... the ones I've worked with > professionally have had a variety of features including timers, > conductive plastic rails at 0.6" spacing for ESD reasons and easy > loading, but I've never seen any sort of eraser that applies power to > the chips in any way. > > I myself did some experiments a couple of years ago at the South Pole > when I didn't have a proper UV-A bulb (I just had a UV inspection > lamp)... I could get the chips to superficially erase, but when I > built a rig out of sockets and a trim pot to turn down Vcc to the > EPROM for testing, I could reliably read the former contents at > voltages below 5V even when the chips appeared empty at exactly 5V. > In the end, I gave up on trying to use the lamp I had. Fortunately I > had a couple of 1MBit FLASH chips and was able to muddle through, but > in the future, I'd probably pack some 27F256s or pack a real EPROM > eraser and use ordinary EPROMs. > > -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 29 14:11:39 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 12:11:39 -0800 Subject: Replacing failed powersupplies on qbus PDP-11s In-Reply-To: References: <1233248360.7997.12.camel@spasmo> from "Tobias Russell" at Jan 29, 9 04:59:20 pm, Message-ID: <49819CFB.9547.67221AD7@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Jan 2009 at 19:49, Tony Duell wrote: > Beware of the last fault. Some SMPSUs don't have bleeder resistors on the > mains smoothing capacitor, relying on the chopper circuit to discharge > them. If this isn't running for any reason, the capacitor stays charged > and will zap you. Now how do you think UI found that out :-) Although the basic principle is simple, SMPSU design to me is still a black art and it seems that the practitioners of it are all older than 50. One of the better websites on the subject is: http://www.smpstech.com/index.htm FWIW, Chuck From wmaddox at pacbell.net Thu Jan 29 19:01:40 2009 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 17:01:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Tektronix 4014-1 & unknown cards In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <553662.83590.qm@web82608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 1/29/09, Stephane Tsacas wrote: > The inside of the 4014 and those unkown to me cards are > displayed there : > http://picasaweb.google.fr/sur.le.tas/Tektronix40141?feat=directlink > (the "loupe" button on the top right might be > useful). The unknown boards look like Interdata boards. According to this website, Tek made a 4081 system which integrated an Interdata 7/32 with a Tek display. http://www.mathworks.com/company/newsletters/news_notes/clevescorner/dec04.html --Bill From dbetz at xlisper.com Thu Jan 29 21:00:21 2009 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 22:00:21 -0500 Subject: Atari ST floppy drive? Message-ID: <59E77B39-6F4A-4F67-8709-B85FE44D1729@xlisper.com> I'm trying to recover some files off of a couple of Atari SH204 hard drives but I only have a 520ST and need to find an external floppy drive to bootstrap my system. Does anyone have a spare Atari SF314 floppy drive around that they'd be willing to part with? I don't have much classic stuff left so I guess this will have to be a sale rather than a trade. Thanks, David From rickb at bensene.com Thu Jan 29 21:23:48 2009 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 19:23:48 -0800 Subject: Tektronix 4014-1 & unknown cards In-Reply-To: <553662.83590.qm@web82608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <553662.83590.qm@web82608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The 4081 was a complete system, in a "desk" format. The CPU was an Interdata 7/16, not a 7/32. The CPU, Memory, Graphics Processor (supporting both display-list vector refresh graphics and DVST-style stored graphics), and I/O interfaces were housed inside a chassis in the desk. The display was a high-performance DVST tube that sat on the desktop, along with the keyboard and joystick. The 4081 was not integrated into a 4014-style chassis. The unidentified board may well be an Interdata CPU as suggested. There were some systems that I saw that provided local intelligence within a 4014 terminal housing, but I can't recall if these were just prototypes, or actually made it into production. I do recall a machine similar to a 4014 that used dual 8-inch floppy drives (mounted beneath the CRT), and ran a version of CP/M, and I know that it made it into production, but didn't use an Interdata processor, and I can't recall what the model of the machine was. If I remember right, it used an 8086 processor. Whatever it is, it's unusual. I worked at Tektronix from '77 until '90, and saw a lot of really neat stuff that was developed, but never turned into product. I knew the 4081 system quite well, as I did a lot of programming (in assembly and PASCAL) on the system. It was a pretty neat system for its time, provided a lot of processing as well as graphics power in a nicely integrated system. I recall Wangtek front-load cartridge disk drives (two of them) in most of the systems that I worked with. The operating system was, IIRC, called GCOS. There was a very powerful macro assembler, FORTRAN, and PASCAL compilers. GCOS had a simple filesystem (8.3 filenames), and did offer a hierarchical directory structure. The text editor, if I recall correctly, was a clone of TECO. The graphics processor was pretty neat, it operated on a display list stored in main memory. You'd create graphics instructions in memory, and them point the display processor at them, and it'd go about generating the display. The display processor could do simple stuff like points and vectors, as well as higher-level objects like rectangles and polygons. The systems I worked on were used for Tek's in-house computer-aided design tools for stuff like circuit board layout, schematic capture, and the like. The vector graphics were used for dynamic objects, and static things were drawn in storage mode. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com Bill Maddox wrote: > > The unknown boards look like Interdata boards. According to this > website, Tek made a 4081 system which integrated an Interdata 7/32 > with a Tek display. > > http://www.mathworks.com/company/newsletters/news_notes/clevescorner/dec 04.html > From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Jan 29 13:08:15 2009 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 11:08:15 -0800 Subject: Software preservation (Was: Seeking reverse-engineers - Apple II VisiCalc) In-Reply-To: <4981FB72.5050905@media.mit.edu> References: <200901291800.n0TI0EHv069340@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4981FB72.5050905@media.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Jan 29, 2009, at 10:54 AM, Tim McNerney wrote: > > > At 01:00 PM 1/28/2009, Tim McNerney wrote: > >> >I am looking for volunteers to help reverse-engineer and >> document Apple II VisiCalc. >> >I have three versions of the Apple II software. I know one of >> them still boots (1983?) >> >and have some confidence that the other two versions (1979 and >> 1981) work too. >> >I have been in contact with both Bob Frankston and Dan Bricklin. >> >Of course you ask, well then why do you need volunteers? >> >The answer is because no one can find the sources. >> > > No matter how many times I hear stories like this, or lived > through stories like this, I still shake my head and can't > understand how the source code gets lost. All these > corporations, all the lawsuits, all the programmers, all the > marketing money, and so often no one, NO ONE, > preserves arguably the most important bits. Oh, I completely understand how it happens (after having seen it happen a few times). Typically all of the source for a project is kept on a server(s) that run the SCM (source code management) system. Yes, they are backed up but in many cases it's just a rotating backup set (ie they get overwritten). When the project is EOL'd usually the server(s) are either re-tasked (involving a complete re-install and wipe) or scrapped (which involves wiping). The backups are usually scrapped at that time as well. Almost no one does an archive of those backups. If they do, then that's were to look because they are kept in an off-site location for disaster recovery. In many cases the off- site storage is mostly write-only (ie tapes/whatever go in but are never asked for and not purged). Most of this stuff gets "lost" because of apathy on the part of the owners rather than malicious intent. TTFN - Guy > > > > In the case of Personal Software, I believe Lotus bought them to > reduce competition, > not to preserve VisiCalc. At the time, people seldom think about > the historical significance > of source documents. The Intel 4004 schematics would have been lost > if it hadn't been for > some Intel engineer who realized they needed to be saved. True, > there are some engineers > who take stuff home and store it in their basement, but in the case > of the 4004, Federico > Faggin couldn't hold on to any schematics when he left Intel because > he was going off to > found Zilog and had to protect himself legally. The problem with > packrats is that, even > when you are unusually organized, like Bob Frankston, you still end > up with boxes that > are mis-labeled. Even Hewlett Packard has thrown out some important > engineering > documentation. When the calculator division moved from Santa Clara > to Corvalis, > the threw out dumpsters full of drawings on their very first RPN > calculator, the 9100. > > --Tim > > From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Jan 29 22:14:51 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 23:14:51 -0500 Subject: Software preservation (Was: Seeking reverse-engineers - AppleII VisiCalc) References: <200901291800.n0TI0EHv069340@dewey.classiccmp.org><4981FB72.5050905@media.mit.edu> Message-ID: I would think when companies merge the source code for applications the new owner doesn't want is generally trashed so they don't have to support it. Symantec seemed to be good about buying up companies to remove competition and bury applications that didn't fit into their product line. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jan 29 22:17:05 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 20:17:05 -0800 Subject: Software preservation (Was: Seeking reverse-engineers - Apple II VisiCalc) In-Reply-To: References: <200901291800.n0TI0EHv069340@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <4981FB72.5050905@media.mit.edu>, Message-ID: <49820EC1.11000.68DEBFB3@cclist.sydex.com> An awful lot of source code gets lost in the process of Chapter 7 bankruptcy liquidation or acquisition by another firm. In the latter case, the acquiring firm is interested mostly in the customer base and doesn't much care about existing products, which inevitably end up in the dumpster. In the case of bankruptcy, I've never seen an acution where source code was part of the assets being sold. For the first product I did for a 5150 PC, I used a schematic capture package called Schema by Omation. Very nice for the time, particuarly with Hercules graphics. As I understand things, Omation was acquired by Accel (makers of TangoPCB) and Schema disappeared. Well, now I've got a floppy with my work that might as well be in Linear B. Cheers, Chuck From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Thu Jan 29 22:46:01 2009 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 20:46:01 -0800 Subject: Tektronix 4014-1 & unknown cards In-Reply-To: References: <553662.83590.qm@web82608.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49828609.6040109@sbcglobal.net> Rick Bensene wrote: > The 4081 was a complete system, in a "desk" format. The CPU was an > Interdata 7/16, not a 7/32. The CPU, Memory, Graphics Processor > (supporting both display-list vector refresh graphics and DVST-style > stored graphics), and I/O interfaces were housed inside a chassis in the > desk. The display was a high-performance DVST tube that sat on the > desktop, along with the keyboard and joystick. > The 4081 was not integrated into a 4014-style chassis. > > The unidentified board may well be an Interdata CPU as suggested. There > were some systems that I saw that provided local intelligence within a > 4014 terminal housing, but I can't recall if these were just prototypes, > or actually made it into production. I do recall a machine similar to a > 4014 that used dual 8-inch floppy drives (mounted beneath the CRT), and > ran a version of CP/M, and I know that it made it into production, but > didn't use an Interdata processor, and I can't recall what the model of > the machine was. If I remember right, it used an 8086 processor. > This was the 4114 system. I have two in non-working condition. It was introduced in 1982. There was also a 4115 that used a raster display instead of the vector display. Bob From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jan 29 22:54:14 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 23:54:14 -0500 Subject: EPROM erase times and lifespan In-Reply-To: <200901291452.25206.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <29B3FD676D45@dunfield.com> <200901291452.25206.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <87C34B8D-E483-4D5D-87DD-6BB4DCCCC3F0@neurotica.com> On Jan 29, 2009, at 2:52 PM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> 1) Some EPROMS are "more programmed" than others. >> >> Early devices with a fixed proramming time per cell normally are >> saturated, >> and well programmed. Later "intelligent" algorithms would watch >> the device, >> note how much charge was needed to make a 1->0 transition occur in >> the >> cell, add a margin and "your done". Much faster - but depending on >> the >> equipment, sometimes "less programmed". > > I wonder if this has any effect on the longevity of what's stored > on them? It seems logical that it would. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From tiggerlasv at aim.com Thu Jan 29 23:40:32 2009 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 00:40:32 -0500 Subject: Replacing failed powersupplies on qbus PDP-11s Message-ID: <8CB50B4669BA9D4-1190-17D3@mblk-d23.sysops.aol.com> Since I'm not aware of your electronics/troubleshooting knowledge, I thought I'd make mention of one of the known BA23/BA123 issues. When the boxes were first introduced, they were shipped with backplane power cables that had a major design flaw. They used IDC-style connectors on each end of what was basically a heavy-gauge ribbon cable. The Insulation Displacement Connectors tended to add significant resistance to the connection, and couldn't carry their rated loads. Depending on the load, the connectors would either discolor from the heat. . . . start to melt, or, in extreme cases, start on fire. An FCO was issued, and the "proper" power cables have individual wires, and crimped-on pins. I don't think it would be unreasonable to speculate that, if your particular power supply had an old-style connector at some point (which chose to melt) that the solder joints for the header could have been compromised from the heat. Check the circuit board where the header is soldered, to make sure there aren't any cold or bridged solder joints. A shorted pin could prevent the power supply from coming up. . . If you have the old ribbon-style power connectors, I would recommend replacing them immediately. I "rolled my own" with parts readily available at MCM Electronics. I'm sure suitable connectors could also be obtained from Jameco, Digikey, etc. T From bqt at softjar.se Thu Jan 29 01:58:44 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 08:58:44 +0100 Subject: Can a TU80 read 800bpi tapes? In-Reply-To: <200901281800.n0SI0AVC052577@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901281800.n0SI0AVC052577@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <498161B4.9040608@softjar.se> B M wrote: > Can a DEC TU80 tape drive (a 1600bpi device) read 800bpi tapes? The > goal is to archive several 9-track tapes I have. The tapes were > originally for a PDP-11 system, but I do not know the original tape > format (RT? RSTS? DOS? ...). No. The TU80 is 1600 bpi only. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Thu Jan 29 10:22:09 2009 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 17:22:09 +0100 Subject: Seeking reverse-engineers - Apple II VisiCalc In-Reply-To: <4981C9F6.5020100@gmail.com> References: <200901281800.n0SI0AUu052577@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4980AB42.6010003@media.mit.edu> <6.2.3.4.2.20090129085638.05e74420@mail.threedee.com> <4981C9F6.5020100@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4981D7B1.9050804@iais.fraunhofer.de> Jules Richardson schrieb: > John Foust wrote: >> No matter how many times I hear stories like this, or lived through >> stories like this, I still shake my head and can't understand how the >> source code gets lost. > > I think typically it just gets misplaced, not lost :-) If a company's > churning out new products once in a while then it stands to reason that the > older, obsolete stuff gets pushed to the back of a cupboard... then buried... > then moved to a different cupboard... I have actually seen it happen that software was discarded, rather than moved to some later forgotten place. The mechanism usually works in the following way: 1. The developer and curator of the software leaves the company (job change, retirement, etc.), of course telling everyone that the work is an important piece to be kept. 2. The media and the documentation is put into some archive locker, the hardware - obsolete anyway - is discarded. 3. Long time, three new generations of employees later, someone finds the locker again, regards it interesting for archival of own stuff, and sees big old black squares and supposedly worn-out brown adhesive tape on large reels. He has no knowledge what this has been once, does not even know what floppies are at all, leave alone 8" ones, and for reel tapes noone even has a reader anymore in the close environment. Some binders read 1973, long before he was born. Surely it is not for Wintel systems. 4. Most importantly, the whole crap occupies space in the place that is needed. 5. So the stuff goes into the dump. 6. Usually, some months, later some former customer asks for support...has even still the original system to restore the media. > I bet it still exists in a lot of cases, but everybody's forgotten exactly > where, simply because it's been such a long time since they last needed to know. > > The picture's perhaps a bit brighter these days, because the storage is so > cheap now that there's less incentive to dump things from corporate > fileservers every once in a while (storing them in the aforementioned cupboard). Storage on corporate file servers isn't cheap. You don't put 10 1TB-USB drives at $100 each together and then have a serious and reliable corporate storage system, even if such USB-SANs exist. The main point though is called 'digital dilemma'. Data on CDs will survive maybe 10, 20 years, so they need to be copied before, e.g. to DVDs which give another 5/10 years, or BlueRay (which I give 2 years until the next technology will be thrown on the customer obsoleting the format). Data on tapes will survive as long as the corresponding tape drives are still in use; before EOL data must be copied. Data on RAID disks will survive as long as the base disk is available which might be 5 or 10 years. Before retiring an old storage, data must be copied. This requires time and effort, compared to a simple "remove *" because the #3 effect also applies ("What is that VISICAL.ASM junk anyway - doesn't even load at all in Visual Studio 2008 although the name implies. Shred the junk!") -- Holger From jws at jwsss.com Thu Jan 29 11:48:18 2009 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 09:48:18 -0800 Subject: Seeking reverse-engineers - Apple II VisiCalc (Software and Engineering Work product destruction) In-Reply-To: <4981E6E8.7090602@bitsavers.org> References: <4981E6E8.7090602@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4981EBE2.6080503@jwsss.com> I was at Microdata in the lat 70's when they decide to get rid of all their older 16xx mini computer software. I consisted of 30' of 6' card racks. Each tray was several releases of their drivers, and they had essentially maintained an svn or software revision repository in cards. I was the only one who had had any interest since starting work there 5 years earlier. I was luck to be given access to the cards for 2 months before they were recycled. I could have taken them, but didn't have the room at the time to do that, so I copied all of the latest revisions to 1/2" tape and stored it. This remains the only record of the source of this that exists. I also had the chance to get a copy of most of the other drawings and was able to retain those for historical purposes. I know the attitude of the management was 100% that it was not of any value once customers were deemed to all be gone. Read that Paying customers. My copies did save them in a couple cases doing favors for some who called too late. I have been fortunate to be given access to discards at two other companies as well and did my best to maintain the data, both engineering and software. One company I worked for in the last 10 years discarded their "golden" master eproms and pal sets (to me) as hardware scrap. If you or someone is not there in the right place at the right time, and the conditions exist to legally obtain the stuff does not exist, then things are just destroyed as Al says. I doubt that the conditions I have encounted as described above would happen in these IP crazy days. Jim Al Kossow wrote: > > > I respectfully disagree. Once a product reaches end of life, it is > disposed of. > > Unlike entertainment products, which can be resold to the next > generation, old > software has been perceived as having no commercial value and is > discarded either > to avoid its availability for legal discovery, when a company is sold, > or when they > need the space or get tired of paying storage costs for it. > > I know that simple stupidity or lack of vision also causes this and the question about saving the goods is usually asked with about the intelligence of the poor girlfriend in the current Carl's Jr. ad running who thinks she will get a steak dinner at Carls because of some Steak menu item. "oh you mean we could have used that again? huh" Jim From chrise at pobox.com Thu Jan 29 15:48:02 2009 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 15:48:02 -0600 Subject: GNT 3601 tape punch docs? In-Reply-To: References: <20090128162805.GG20244@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20090129214801.GN27880@n0jcf.net> On Thursday (01/29/2009 at 07:22PM +0000), Tony Duell wrote: > > It was probably better known in the CNC / automated machining world than > > in computing but my hope is to resurrect it as a backup punch for copying > > tapes I use with my ASR-33 and thereby save wear on the -33's punch. > > I suspect it'll be considerably faster than the ASR33 too ... I'm counting on that :-) > > The unit has serial and parallel interfaces on DB25 connectors but I do > > not have any pinout information for those. The serial one I can probably > > figure out. > > The parallel interface on the Facit 4070 became a de-facto standard for > punchs. I would see if any of the signals matched up with that one, if > they do, it's a fair bet that it's that interface. OK. Thanks for that tip. > > supply problem because as soon as you try to punch all eight holes with > > the front panel test button, the power LED dims and the punch jams, > > What type of mechanism does this punch use? In my experience there are 2 > basic types : > > 1) Solenoids to driectly operate the punch pins (that is, the punching > force comes entirely from the solenoid), and a (stepper) motor to move > the tape. For example the Facit 4070 > > 2) A continuously rotating camshaft (normally with a mains-powered > motor). The solenoids operate linkages (or clutches) to operate the punch > pins, the punching force comes form the motor, not the solenoids. Anther > solenoid opeates the tape feed mechanism, again the power comes from the > motor. For example the Teletype BRPE, Tally 420, etc. > > Needless to say the solenoids in the second type are much smaller and > take much less current. I don't know yet which style it is as I have not opened the unit up. But, lacking the docs at this point, that is the next step. It does correctly punch the feed holes and will appear to do so all day long. It's only when I press the button with the big black dot that it attempts to punch all eight holes and stalls. The feed hole punching screws up then too. > > apparently from lack of umph to complete the mission. It could also be > > jamming to start with and that causes the power drop I suppose. > > Can you tuen things by hand (power off, of course) and operate the > solenoids by hand to see if the mechanism can be got to work? Will find out in a day or two as soon as I receive the round tuits that I ordered for the weekend. I appreciate the info. Chris From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Jan 29 16:34:05 2009 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 17:34:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: EPROM erase times and lifespan In-Reply-To: <49822460.7020008@philpem.me.uk> References: <49822460.7020008@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <200901292258.RAA13424@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > ISTR someone asked why higher-capacity chips take longer to erase. > Newer chips use smaller transistors -- the smaller the transistors, > the smaller the "floating gate" is, and the less SiO2 there is to be > hit by the UV. Less area = less energy absorbed True, but... > = less charge leakage = longer erase time. I'm not convinced. Less area = smaller floating gate = less charge to leak, too; it seems to me that UV flux per nm^2 and the thickness of the oxide would be the relevant variables, not the area of the floating gate per se. Or do you have some hard reference for this? It's not clear whether you're repeating something you found in an authoritative source or an "it sounds reasonable to me" or "somebody told me" or what. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Jan 30 07:40:30 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 08:40:30 -0500 Subject: Seeking reverse-engineers - Apple II VisiCalc In-Reply-To: <4981D7B1.9050804@iais.fraunhofer.de> References: <200901281800.n0SI0AUu052577@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4981C9F6.5020100@gmail.com> <4981D7B1.9050804@iais.fraunhofer.de> Message-ID: <200901300840.30501.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 29 January 2009, Holger Veit wrote: > 3. Long time, three new generations of employees later, someone finds > the locker again, regards it interesting for archival of own stuff, > and sees big old black squares and supposedly worn-out brown adhesive > tape on large reels. He has no knowledge what this has been once, > does not even know what floppies are at all, leave alone 8" ones, and > for reel tapes noone even has a reader anymore in the close > environment. Some binders read 1973, long before he was born. Surely > it is not for Wintel systems. This is why I tend to prefer the people who I work with (in academia). They don't seem to be as rash and thoughtless about their decisions as a lot of people in the corporate world, who just seem to be interested in how big their paycheck is. (I said "some", not "all", so it's not necessary to reply to say how this profile doesn't fit $reader.) > Storage on corporate file servers isn't cheap. You don't put 10 > 1TB-USB drives at $100 each together and then have a serious and > reliable corporate storage system, even if such USB-SANs exist. But, you can fit the contents of a huge number of 6250bpi 9-track tapes onto a "small" 73GB SCSI drive; around 500 full tapes. You can fit even more 8" floppies in the same space. At what we spend for our persistent, backed up storage at work, 73GB would be less than $100 worth of storage ($1000/TB is the typical guideline right now). Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Fri Jan 30 08:55:15 2009 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 09:55:15 -0500 Subject: Software preservation (Was: Seeking reverse-engineers - Apple II VisiCalc) In-Reply-To: <4981FB72.5050905@media.mit.edu> References: <200901291800.n0TI0EHv069340@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4981FB72.5050905@media.mit.edu> Message-ID: <498314D3.4090605@compsys.to> >Tim McNerney wrote: > No matter how many times I hear stories like this, or lived through > stories like this, I still shake my head and can't understand how the > source code gets lost. All these corporations, all the lawsuits, > all the programmers, all the marketing money, and so often no one, > NO ONE, > preserves arguably the most important bits. One classic case of lost source code was for TSX-PLUS. Assuming that the information from S&H was correct, then at some point after the last (V6.5 in 1991) version was frozen, the system which held the source code failed. For reasons which were never explained, an off-system tape or other media backup was not available to recover the files. It was established that hard copy of the source files existed, but it may have been from an earlier (V6.4) version. Whatever the actual story, evidently the source files were never securely archived even while the product was still actively being sold and shortly after it had been released. Many PDP-11 software releases also suffered the same fate, especially the old versions prior to 1980. While I have almost no knowledge of RSTS/E and RSX-11, at least for RT-11, as far as I am aware, all of the binary distributions since V04.00 from 1980 have been correctly (or at least sufficiently) archived. A few of the earlier (V3.x) binary distributions are also archived but with less than 100% of the files having been saved. Even some of the layered products have survived along with the source files for some of the binary distributions of RT-11. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jan 30 10:01:19 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 08:01:19 -0800 Subject: Tektronix 4014-1 & unknown cards Message-ID: <4983244F.8080909@bitsavers.org> > There was > also a 4115 that used a raster display instead of the vector display. - 4115/4125 uses an x86 processor At one time, I had the full set of manuals for the 4115, while the company I was working for was trying to write an emulation for it. The service manual in particular seems very hard to find now. From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jan 30 11:09:46 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 10:09:46 -0700 Subject: ebay: 2 vintage cards for apollo workstation In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 26 Jan 2009 14:37:40 -0700. Message-ID: Relisted with reduced buy-it-now ebay item # 260354394197 'course since the last listing expired with no bids, you could probably low-bid on this and get the two cards with no competition. I guess people aren't really collecting Apollo workstation stuff. A shame, really. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mc at media.mit.edu Fri Jan 30 11:28:44 2009 From: mc at media.mit.edu (Tim McNerney) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 12:28:44 -0500 Subject: Software preservation (Was: Seeking reverse-engineers - Apple II VisiCalc) In-Reply-To: <200901301711.n0UHBs94084317@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901301711.n0UHBs94084317@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <498338CC.6050101@media.mit.edu> Date: Thu, 29 Jan 2009 11:08:15 -0800 From: Guy Sotomayor Oh, I completely understand how it happens (after having seen it happen a few times). Typically all of the source for a project is kept on a server(s) that run the SCM (source code management) system. Yes, they are backed up but in many cases it's just a rotating backup set (ie they get overwritten). When the project is EOL'd usually the server(s) are either re-tasked (involving a complete re-install and wipe) or scrapped (which involves wiping). The backups are usually scrapped at that time as well. Almost no one does an archive of those backups. If they do, then that's were to look because they are kept in an off-site location for disaster recovery. In many cases the off- site storage is mostly write-only (ie tapes/whatever go in but are never asked for and not purged). Most of this stuff gets "lost" because of apathy on the part of the owners rather than malicious intent. TTFN - Guy People have always been sloppy about old backups. Even companies like Thinking Machines, who were careful and kept off-site backups using Iron Mountain, or somesuch, when the company went out of business, all these tapes ended up in a dumpster. (I know this for a fact). --Tim P.S. Back in the 70's version control systems were rare. Personal Software's backups were done on floppies. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 30 11:32:14 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 09:32:14 -0800 Subject: Atari ST floppy drive? In-Reply-To: <59E77B39-6F4A-4F67-8709-B85FE44D1729@xlisper.com> References: <59E77B39-6F4A-4F67-8709-B85FE44D1729@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <4982C91E.29974.6BB6A948@cclist.sydex.com> On 29 Jan 2009 at 22:00, David Betz wrote: > I'm trying to recover some files off of a couple of Atari SH204 hard > drives but I only have a 520ST and need to find an external floppy > drive to bootstrap my system. Does anyone have a spare Atari SF314 > floppy drive around that they'd be willing to part with? I don't have > much classic stuff left so I guess this will have to be a sale rather > than a trade. AFAIK, there's nothing magic about the 520ST floppy drive--if you can find that multi-pin DIN connector, you can easily take a stock 3.5" 720K or 1.44M drive and use it. I've got the pinout for the connector (and may even have one in my hellbox) if you want to tackle rolling your own. Cheers, Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jan 30 11:38:08 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 09:38:08 -0800 Subject: ebay: 2 vintage cards for apollo workstation Message-ID: <49833B00.5060601@bitsavers.org> > I guess people aren't really collecting Apollo workstation stuff. DN3xxx et. al. are just coming out of the bottom of the bathtub curve. Same with VME Sun 3 and 4. Most of the mid-80's workstations have been recycled now. There is also the little problem of software for them, if you don't want to run NetBSD. To be honest, the first lot with the disk controller and network card were of more use than the memory and video card. Keeping Apollo gear going is going to be tricky. At least the Sun 3 hardware docs have mostly leaked out. I've heard of very little detailed Apollo HW info out there. A couple of years ago, I was trying to get the guy who was working adding more driver support to BSD to get the info he had reverse engineered, but didn't get anywhere. I've been in contact with the person responsible for Apollo product support at HP about what hardware info they got for the machines, and it doesn't sound like much made it out there from the east coast. Similar things happened when HP took over the 68k-based 1500 product line from TI. From dbetz at xlisper.com Fri Jan 30 11:39:09 2009 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 12:39:09 -0500 Subject: Atari ST floppy drive? In-Reply-To: <4982C91E.29974.6BB6A948@cclist.sydex.com> References: <59E77B39-6F4A-4F67-8709-B85FE44D1729@xlisper.com> <4982C91E.29974.6BB6A948@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Jan 30, 2009, at 12:32 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 29 Jan 2009 at 22:00, David Betz wrote: > >> I'm trying to recover some files off of a couple of Atari SH204 hard >> drives but I only have a 520ST and need to find an external floppy >> drive to bootstrap my system. Does anyone have a spare Atari SF314 >> floppy drive around that they'd be willing to part with? I don't have >> much classic stuff left so I guess this will have to be a sale rather >> than a trade. > > AFAIK, there's nothing magic about the 520ST floppy drive--if you can > find that multi-pin DIN connector, you can easily take a stock 3.5" > 720K or 1.44M drive and use it. I've got the pinout for the > connector (and may even have one in my hellbox) if you want to tackle > rolling your own. Sure, that would help! I figured there was some other electronics in the drive like the Atari 800 and C64 drives. If it's just building a cable, I can probably handle that. Thanks! David From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 30 12:02:27 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 10:02:27 -0800 Subject: Atari ST floppy drive? In-Reply-To: References: <59E77B39-6F4A-4F67-8709-B85FE44D1729@xlisper.com>, <4982C91E.29974.6BB6A948@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4982D033.2150.6BD253EC@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Jan 2009 at 12:39, David Betz wrote: > Sure, that would help! I figured there was some other electronics in > the drive like the Atari 800 and C64 drives. If it's just building a > cable, I can probably handle that. Yup, that's all it is. The connector's a 14-pin DIN, which is perhaps the hardest thing to find, but I may have one somewhere. The pinout is as follows: 1 - Read data 2 - Side select 3 - Gnd 4 - Index 5 - Drive 0 select 6 - Drive 1 select 7 - Gnd 8 - Motor on 9 - Step direction 10 - Step 11 - Write data 12 - Write gate 13 - Track 0 14 - Write protect You'll need a small power supply for the 3.5" drive, but a 5 volt "wall wart" should do--and you can tuck two drives in the same box if the mood strikes you. If you use a PC-type 1.44MB drive, make sure that your disks don't have the high-density aperture uncovered (you don't want the drive thinking that they're 1.44s). Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 30 11:49:34 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 09:49:34 -0800 Subject: Software preservation (Was: Seeking reverse-engineers - Apple II VisiCalc) In-Reply-To: <498338CC.6050101@media.mit.edu> References: <200901301711.n0UHBs94084317@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <498338CC.6050101@media.mit.edu> Message-ID: <4982CD2E.29221.6BC684E9@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Jan 2009 at 12:28, Tim McNerney wrote: > P.S. Back in the 70's version control systems were rare. > Personal Software's backups were done on floppies. Rare only in the microcmputer world. The mainframe people knew about the importance of source-code control for a long time. At CDC, we used a program called UPDATE that was old in 1970, and by no means the first of its kind, even at CDC. ONe of the things that got lost in the transition away from punched cards was the use of columns 73-80 as a non-parsed "sequence" field in source code. With utilities like Update, one could look at a listing and immediately see which correction set a statement was part of. The people in Integration assigned correction set IDs according to PSR numbers, so you even knew what problem the code was supposed to fix. It surprised me that the micro types took so long to figure basic things like SCCS and regression testing out. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jan 30 12:54:11 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 11:54:11 -0700 Subject: ebay: 2 vintage cards for apollo workstation In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 30 Jan 2009 09:38:08 -0800. <49833B00.5060601@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <49833B00.5060601 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > > I guess people aren't really collecting Apollo workstation stuff. > > DN3xxx et. al. are just coming out of the bottom of the bathtub curve. A shame, really. The early workstation era had lots of companies making product that had different approaches to the same problem. I mean, Apollo's Domain OS is not like the standard unix port stuff that everyone else was doing. Its a shame to see it get lost. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mc at media.mit.edu Fri Jan 30 13:16:48 2009 From: mc at media.mit.edu (Tim McNerney) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 14:16:48 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 65, Issue 65 In-Reply-To: <200901301711.n0UHBs94084317@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200901301711.n0UHBs94084317@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <49835220.4020301@media.mit.edu> From: "Jeff Walther" Subject: Re: Seeking reverse-engineers - Apple II VisiCalc What I find particularly irritating, is that the loss of the source code, arguably, defeats the implicit reason that copyright and patent protection exists in the first place. The U.S. constitution states: "To promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;" Now one could argue that securing the exclusive rights promotes progress all by itself. But the fact that it is meant to be for a limited time, implies to me that at some point the full benefit of that advancement should become available to everybody. If no copy of the source code is required to be filed with the government, then the copyright and/or patent laws are not securing the benefits of that progress for society at the end of the exclusive period. Patents have become similarly lame. Chips get patented with no description language at any level required to be filed. Sigh. Bad congress. Bad bad congress. No cookie. Jeff Walther I don't think it ever occurred to our founding fathers that "authors" would copyright something with no intent of ever publishing it. Or, in the case of software, publishing the binaries, but not the sources. Even the pre-1976 requirement of copyright registration was perverted in the case of software. The Copyright Office allows you to submit only a fraction of what was being copyrighted, and you can block out parts that you consider trade secrets. So much for the public good. --Tim From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 30 13:00:37 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 19:00:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: GNT 3601 tape punch docs? In-Reply-To: <20090129214801.GN27880@n0jcf.net> from "Chris Elmquist" at Jan 29, 9 03:48:02 pm Message-ID: > > On Thursday (01/29/2009 at 07:22PM +0000), Tony Duell wrote: > > > It was probably better known in the CNC / automated machining world than > > > in computing but my hope is to resurrect it as a backup punch for copying > > > tapes I use with my ASR-33 and thereby save wear on the -33's punch. > > > > I suspect it'll be considerably faster than the ASR33 too ... > > I'm counting on that :-) There are very few punches that are only 10cps :-). Even the small stand-alone ones seem to be about 30 cps, better ones around 50-75cps. [...] > I don't know yet which style it is as I have not opened the unit up. > But, lacking the docs at this point, that is the next step. Perhaps it's just me, but I always pull the case of _anything_ (new or old) and have a look inside before applying power. And if possible check PSUs on a dummy load and trun mechanical parts by hand just to check for serious problems. > > It does correctly punch the feed holes and will appear to do so all > day long. It's only when I press the button with the big black dot > that it attempts to punch all eight holes and stalls. The feed hole > punching screws up then too. This does sound like the PSU is getting overloaded having to power all the solenoids at once. It may be something as simple as a dreid-up smoothing capacitor, although without knowing anything about the design, it's hard to be sure. You may find you can disconnect the punch solenoids (leave the feed hole one conneted). At which point your 'code holes' switch (as Facit call it), should just punch feed holes. And then maybe reconenct the solenoids 1 or 2 at a time and see what happens. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 30 13:04:17 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 19:04:17 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Replacing failed powersupplies on qbus PDP-11s In-Reply-To: <1233265729.7997.35.camel@spasmo> from "Tobias Russell" at Jan 29, 9 09:48:49 pm Message-ID: > > Hi Tony, > > Thanks for the excellent SMPSU 101. I'm beginning to wish I hadn't > lounged in bed instead of attending the power electronics course at > university (Monday 9am lectures were always going to be a mistake). Well, you can take heart from the fact that I've never done a single electronics course. I am entirely self-taught. [In fact, had I not neen sufficiently interested to teach myself the interesting bits of the subjects I was studying for A-level and had relied on the garbage the teachers were spouting, I'd have eneded up doing nothing of any use.] -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 30 13:10:41 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 19:10:41 +0000 (GMT) Subject: EPROM erase times and lifespan In-Reply-To: <49822460.7020008@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Jan 29, 9 09:49:20 pm Message-ID: > > ISTR someone asked why higher-capacity chips take longer to erase. Newer chips > use smaller transistors -- the smaller the transistors, the smaller the > "floating gate" is, and the less SiO2 there is to be hit by the UV. Less area > = less energy absorbed = less charge leakage = longer erase time. Yes, but I would have thought that smaller devices had less charge to discharge (if you see what I mean). Assuming the voltage on the floating gate is much the same in both cases (and if anything it'd be smaller on later/higher capacity devices), the charge is going to be roughly proportional to the area of the floating gate (since the capacitance between that gate and whatever you reference it to is proportional to that area). I believe that if you have a number of charged bodies in a mediaum of resistivity rho and permitivity epsilon (as normal), the time constant of that system (to equalise the charges) is independnat of the shapes and positions of the charged bodies, it is simply rho * epsilion. th return ot the 'intellegent' EPROM ereaser, my worried is that do we _know_ that the rest of the chip (addresss decoder, sense amplifiers, etc) will work correcting when irradiated with short-wavelength UV? In other words is the readout of the chip even meaningful under such conditions? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jan 30 12:52:12 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 18:52:12 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Replacing failed powersupplies on qbus PDP-11s In-Reply-To: <49819CFB.9547.67221AD7@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 29, 9 12:11:39 pm Message-ID: > > On 29 Jan 2009 at 19:49, Tony Duell wrote: > > > Beware of the last fault. Some SMPSUs don't have bleeder resistors on the > > mains smoothing capacitor, relying on the chopper circuit to discharge > > them. If this isn't running for any reason, the capacitor stays charged > > and will zap you. Now how do you think UI found that out :-) > > Although the basic principle is simple, SMPSU design to me is still a > black art and it seems that the practitioners of it are all older The design _is_ something of a black art (in particular the design of the transformer -- the exact characteristics of that are critical to the design). But repairing an SMPSU that has worked (and in th case of a DEC Q-bus box, has been made many time,s and has worked well for years in general) is a lot easier. You know the basic deisgn ins sound, you know that particular transformer can work in that circuit, and so on. > than 50. One of the better websites on the subject is: > > http://www.smpstech.com/index.htm Other references are the sevice manauls for some early-ish devices that used such supplies (the HP7245 printer/plotter manual springs to mind as containing an explanation of a '2 stage' SMPSU). And the second editon of The Art of Electronics contains a basic description of the Tandy 2000 PSU, complete with a schematic (and an insulting comment about IBM and Apple who refused to provide scheamtics!). -tony From tosteve at yahoo.com Fri Jan 30 14:13:02 2009 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 12:13:02 -0800 (PST) Subject: My GRiD 1109 screen is shot Message-ID: <451063.63475.qm@web110601.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> I have acquired a GRiD 1109 laptop from 1983(?), but the screen mostly shows only every-other scan line. Schematics may help, but I haven't found any. Does anyone have a screen (or more) to donate? Thanks- Steve. P.S. The 1109 circuit boards are different than those of the 1101. Anyone know the differences between the two? From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Jan 30 14:29:26 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 20:29:26 +0000 Subject: EPROM erase times and lifespan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49836326.5000504@philpem.me.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > th return ot the 'intellegent' EPROM ereaser, my worried is that do we > _know_ that the rest of the chip (addresss decoder, sense amplifiers, > etc) will work correcting when irradiated with short-wavelength UV? In > other words is the readout of the chip even meaningful under such conditions? I'd go with "maybe, but it isn't guaranteed". To my knowledge, no EPROM manufacturer (if there are any left, I seem to recall STMicroelectronics were one of the last) guarantee that their chips will work under UV light -- I suspect the expectation is that you hit them with UV light for one reason only -- to erase them. There may be a little bit of shielding over the more sensitive circuitry, but I wouldn't bet any money on it. One thing that's sometimes worth a quick demo is the propensity of EPROMs to temporarily lose their programming when nailed with high-intensity light from, say, a camera flash. That caught me out a few times -- I've got a couple of old HTEC "Kitty Card" 8052 microcontroller boards (formerly sold by Greenweld). Basically, it's a board with an 8032, an EPROM, a bit of RAM, an RS232 line-driver and a few I/Os (notably a HD44780 LCD driver). The original code in the EPROMs contained text referring to the old Argos "Premier Points" scheme. Anyway, I finished hooking the board up, and figured it'd be nice to have a photo of the whole arrangement. The camera flash fired and the software promptly crashed. A nice explanation as to why semiconductors tend to come in light-proof packages, and why you really should put reflective labels on windowed ICs when you're done playing with the software... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From sethm at loomcom.com Fri Jan 30 14:48:58 2009 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 12:48:58 -0800 Subject: Can anyone identify this terminal? Message-ID: A friend forwarded me this YouTube link today: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WCTn4FljUQ It's a KRON Channel 4 news (San Francisco, CA) report from 1981 about the San Francisco Examiner (and others) making themselves available online via BBS. My favorite line: "Of the estimated two to three thousand home computer owners in the Bay Area..." Ah, those were the days! I spy a Tandy TRS-80 Model I, a TRS-80 Color Computer! But I'm mainly interested in the Space-Age looking terminals being used by the SF Examiner staff in the video. They've got swooping, rounded corners, white shells, and what looks like an integrated 9 or 10 inch green phosphor display. Screenshot is here: http://www.loomcom.com/misc/examiner_terminal.jpg Anyone know what kind of terminal this is? I'd freaking LOVE to have one of those on my desk. -Seth From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri Jan 30 15:09:13 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 13:09:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: EPROM erase times and lifespan In-Reply-To: <49836326.5000504@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <227513.7232.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Fri, 1/30/09, Philip Pemberton wrote: > One thing that's sometimes worth a quick demo is the > propensity of EPROMs to temporarily lose their programming > when nailed with high-intensity light from, say, a camera > flash. > Anyway, I finished hooking the board up, and figured > it'd be nice to have a photo of the whole arrangement. > The camera flash fired and the software promptly crashed. That's interesting! Did the thing work after being restarted, or was the data permanently altered? It doesn't take much to disrupt running software, after all. I remember one article that described an incredibly creative, low cost digital camera-like device. Instead of a CCD, the thing used an ordinary DRAM chip with the cover pried off. The light would affect the cells of the DRAM, and then the 'image' could be read by the computer. Of course, the thing was incredibly primitive - the pictures weren't great, but it was an ingenous hack, and a clever utilization of the light-sensitive nature of these things. -Ian From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 30 13:47:56 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 11:47:56 -0800 Subject: Replacing failed powersupplies on qbus PDP-11s In-Reply-To: References: <49819CFB.9547.67221AD7@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 29, 9 12:11:39 pm, Message-ID: <4982E8EC.29821.6C32E4BF@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Jan 2009 at 18:52, Tony Duell wrote: > The design _is_ something of a black art (in particular the design of the > transformer -- the exact characteristics of that are critical to the > design). But repairing an SMPSU that has worked (and in th case of a DEC > Q-bus box, has been made many time,s and has worked well for years in > general) is a lot easier. You know the basic deisgn ins sound, you know > that particular transformer can work in that circuit, and so on. While repair is interesting in its own right, it's the design that really shows the mind (or lack thereof) of the engineer. For example, it never occurred to me that putting an EMI line filter in front of a SMPSU, while it may not disable, may compromise its operation. How many engineers have simply spec-ed an off-the-shelf PSU and stuck it after one of those dandy little fuse-receptacle-power-switch-EMI filter boxes without thinking to ask the PSU manufacturer if it was advisable to do so? It certainly wouldn't have occurred to me. Cheers, Chuck From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Jan 30 15:16:23 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 15:16:23 -0600 Subject: Can anyone identify this terminal? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49836E27.9080308@gmail.com> Seth Morabito wrote: > It's a KRON Channel 4 news (San Francisco, CA) report from 1981 about > the San Francisco Examiner (and others) making themselves available > online via BBS. Heh, I saw that same video today and wondered exactly the same thing! From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Jan 30 15:25:24 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 15:25:24 -0600 Subject: ebay: 2 vintage cards for apollo workstation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49837044.60103@gmail.com> Richard wrote: > I guess people aren't really collecting Apollo workstation stuff. A > shame, really. I've never seen a genuine early Apollo (2xx or 3xx). There still seem to be 3x00 and 4x00-series machines around, although they're by no means common. They seem to be of that class of machine where they're still out there lurking, but it's difficult to get in touch with any of the owners who still have one. I've got a hankering after one of the "last of the line" 4xx-series (i.e. the last genuine Apollos before they became 7xx PA-RISC HP-UX boxes) as they're stylish vintage systems, but still fast enough to feel "useful". Fantastic build quality, too. Sadly they seem far rarer than the 3xxx/4xxx boxes (and IME 2/3 of them have long since lost their Domain keyboard) I've got archives of Domain OS 10.2, which I'm keeping for a rainy day when I eventually do find a 4xx... (of course Domain comes into its own when you have multiple systems, so I'd really like several 4xx systems ;) And I know I've mentioned before that I'd love a DN10k, but there's not exactly much chance of *that* happening! (I'd love to know how many DN10k's they sold... not many, I suspect) cheers Jules From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Jan 30 15:36:28 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 21:36:28 +0000 Subject: EPROM erase times and lifespan In-Reply-To: <227513.7232.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <227513.7232.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <498372DC.6030007@philpem.me.uk> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > That's interesting! Did the thing work after being restarted, or was the > data permanently altered? It doesn't take much to disrupt running software, > after all. It was a temporary glitch -- I power-cycled the board and it worked again. > I remember one article that described an incredibly creative, low cost > digital camera-like device. Instead of a CCD, the thing used an ordinary > DRAM chip with the cover pried off. The light would affect the cells of the > DRAM, and then the 'image' could be read by the computer. Of course, the > thing was incredibly primitive - the pictures weren't great, but it was an > ingenous hack, and a clever utilization of the light-sensitive nature of > these things. "Kuckuck", by Martin Kurz -- Interesting, even if you don't read German. The source code, schematics and pretty diagrams explain most of it :) Basically you fill the DRAM with "1" bits, then read it back out after a predetermined time. That gives you an image. Take more than one image and you can even get a greyscale image :) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Jan 30 15:34:21 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 15:34:21 -0600 Subject: Seeking reverse-engineers - Apple II VisiCalc In-Reply-To: <4981D7B1.9050804@iais.fraunhofer.de> References: <200901281800.n0SI0AUu052577@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4980AB42.6010003@media.mit.edu> <6.2.3.4.2.20090129085638.05e74420@mail.threedee.com> <4981C9F6.5020100@gmail.com> <4981D7B1.9050804@iais.fraunhofer.de> Message-ID: <4983725D.7080007@gmail.com> Holger Veit wrote: >> I think typically it just gets misplaced, not lost :-) If a company's >> churning out new products once in a while then it stands to reason >> that the older, obsolete stuff gets pushed to the back of a >> cupboard... then buried... then moved to a different cupboard... > > I have actually seen it happen that software was discarded, rather than > moved to some later forgotten place. The mechanism usually works in the > following way: I'd agree, but I've also found no end of stuff that doesn't get thrown out, or it falls into the hands of one of the employees (usually who'll think they'll use the media for something and then never do, burying the stuff in their garage or attic). That's aside from the things that get kept privately by employees with an interest in a particular bit of code (usually for sentimental reasons more than anything). The problem is finding this stuff - and the task is mind-boggling for a museum with a general interest. It's probably a bit easier if you're a private collector with a fairly narrow interest, but even then there's a need to be in the right place at the right time. >> The picture's perhaps a bit brighter these days, because the storage >> is so cheap now that there's less incentive to dump things from >> corporate fileservers every once in a while (storing them in the >> aforementioned cupboard). > > Storage on corporate file servers isn't cheap. You don't put 10 1TB-USB > drives at $100 each together and then have a serious and reliable > corporate storage system, even if such USB-SANs exist. No, but *typical* software projects don't take up that much space. Sure, there are still plenty of big ones out there, but for most it's not like they're using a vast amount of available storage - and it's probably far easier to just migrate the data as/when the storage gets upgraded than it is to actively figure out what can be dumped and what can't. > ("What is that VISICAL.ASM junk anyway - doesn't even load at > all in Visual Studio 2008 although the name implies. Shred the junk!") That's precisely why it survives, because nobody wants to stick their neck out and claim it to be junk, only to find 6 months or a year later that it was of vital importance (it's also why home computer users seem to need hundreds of GB of space these days, but that's another discussion :-) cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Jan 30 15:36:55 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 15:36:55 -0600 Subject: EPROM erase times and lifespan In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <498372F7.50904@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: > th return ot the 'intellegent' EPROM ereaser, my worried is that do we > _know_ that the rest of the chip (addresss decoder, sense amplifiers, > etc) will work correcting when irradiated with short-wavelength UV? In > other words is the readout of the chip even meaningful under such conditions? Can I nip this one in the bud and state that I was thinking of some for of intelligent programmer which turned the lamp off before doing a blank check? But having said that, the comment made about heat from the lamp operation is a good one - I suspect that would mean that there's a potential for damage if the device was read without letting it cool properly first. cheers Jules From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Jan 30 15:41:03 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 16:41:03 -0500 Subject: Replacing failed powersupplies on qbus PDP-11s In-Reply-To: <4982E8EC.29821.6C32E4BF@cclist.sydex.com> References: <49819CFB.9547.67221AD7@cclist.sydex.com> <4982E8EC.29821.6C32E4BF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200901301641.03497.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 30 January 2009 02:47:56 pm Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 30 Jan 2009 at 18:52, Tony Duell wrote: > > The design _is_ something of a black art (in particular the design of the > > transformer -- the exact characteristics of that are critical to the > > design). But repairing an SMPSU that has worked (and in th case of a DEC > > Q-bus box, has been made many time,s and has worked well for years in > > general) is a lot easier. You know the basic deisgn ins sound, you know > > that particular transformer can work in that circuit, and so on. > > While repair is interesting in its own right, it's the design that > really shows the mind (or lack thereof) of the engineer. For > example, it never occurred to me that putting an EMI line filter in > front of a SMPSU, while it may not disable, may compromise its > operation. Eh? Why would it do that? > How many engineers have simply spec-ed an off-the-shelf PSU and stuck > it after one of those dandy little fuse-receptacle-power-switch-EMI > filter boxes without thinking to ask the PSU manufacturer if it was > advisable to do so? It certainly wouldn't have occurred to me. Me neither... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Fri Jan 30 16:04:40 2009 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 22:04:40 +0000 Subject: Seeking reverse-engineers - Apple II VisiCalc In-Reply-To: <4983725D.7080007@gmail.com> References: <200901281800.n0SI0AUu052577@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4980AB42.6010003@media.mit.edu> <6.2.3.4.2.20090129085638.05e74420@mail.threedee.com> <4981C9F6.5020100@gmail.com> <4981D7B1.9050804@iais.fraunhofer.de> <4983725D.7080007@gmail.com> Message-ID: Thinking about the private collections of works source code, how should we deal with it as we under some contractual obligation to the ex employer. Dave Caroline From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 30 16:31:20 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 14:31:20 -0800 Subject: Replacing failed powersupplies on qbus PDP-11s In-Reply-To: <200901301641.03497.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <49819CFB.9547.67221AD7@cclist.sydex.com>, <4982E8EC.29821.6C32E4BF@cclist.sydex.com>, <200901301641.03497.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <49830F38.167.6CC87BDA@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Jan 2009 at 16:41, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Eh? Why would it do that? Read about it: http://www.smpstech.com/filter00.htm Interestingly, the real-world example cited is the addition of an input filter to a PDP 11/40... Cheers, ?huck From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Jan 30 16:53:42 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 22:53:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Seeking reverse-engineers - Apple II VisiCalc In-Reply-To: <4983725D.7080007@gmail.com> Message-ID: <927624.24874.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Sure that's all good and true, but surely more software and sources *should* survive these days as most people will probably search the internet to see if it's worth any value. Items that aren't labelled are much more likely to be junked than items that are clearly labelled. Regarding harddrives full of junk, I have a work colleague who's partner sticks all her photo's straight onto their home computer filling up the harddrive. My harddrive would be pretty empty if I hadn't discovered sites like YouTube etc. Plenty of cool and educational clips can be downloaded these days. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Fri, 30/1/09, Jules Richardson wrote: From: Jules Richardson Subject: Re: Seeking reverse-engineers - Apple II VisiCalc To: "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Friday, 30 January, 2009, 9:34 PM That's precisely why it survives, because nobody wants to stick their neck out and claim it to be junk, only to find 6 months or a year later that it was of vital importance (it's also why home computer users seem to need hundreds of GB of space these days, but that's another discussion :-) cheers Jules From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Jan 30 17:05:00 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 18:05:00 -0500 Subject: Replacing failed powersupplies on qbus PDP-11s In-Reply-To: <49830F38.167.6CC87BDA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <49819CFB.9547.67221AD7@cclist.sydex.com> <200901301641.03497.rtellason@verizon.net> <49830F38.167.6CC87BDA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200901301805.00927.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 30 January 2009 05:31:20 pm Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 30 Jan 2009 at 16:41, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > Eh? Why would it do that? > > Read about it: > > http://www.smpstech.com/filter00.htm Who'd a thunk it...? > Interestingly, the real-world example cited is the addition of an > input filter to a PDP 11/40... I read that as him trying to use that machine to simulate an aspect of the problem, or similar. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jan 30 17:08:03 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 16:08:03 -0700 Subject: Can anyone identify this terminal? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 30 Jan 2009 12:48:58 -0800. Message-ID: In article , Seth Morabito writes: > A friend forwarded me this YouTube link today: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WCTn4FljUQ > [...] > Anyone know what kind of terminal this is? I'd freaking LOVE to have > one of those on my desk. Being the resident terminal freak on this list, its not one that I recognize. However, I would guess that it was part of the turnkey system sold to the newspaper. Notice that these terminals are on almost every journalist's desk in the wide shots. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From RichA at vulcan.com Fri Jan 30 17:18:46 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 15:18:46 -0800 Subject: Software preservation (Was: Seeking reverse-engineers - Apple II VisiCalc) In-Reply-To: <49820EC1.11000.68DEBFB3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200901291800.n0TI0EHv069340@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <4981FB72.5050905@media.mit.edu>, <49820EC1.11000.68DEBFB3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: Chuck Guzis > Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2009 8:17 PM > For the first product I did for a 5150 PC, I used a schematic capture > package called Schema by Omation. Very nice for the time, > particuarly with Hercules graphics. As I understand things, Omation > was acquired by Accel (makers of TangoPCB) and Schema disappeared. > Well, now I've got a floppy with my work that might as well be in > Linear B. At least some of us can read Linear B (OK, with a dictionary, but still...) Rich Alderson Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 30 17:19:00 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 15:19:00 -0800 Subject: Can anyone identify this terminal? In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <49831A64.23801.6CF4218F@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Jan 2009 at 16:08, Richard wrote: > Being the resident terminal freak on this list, its not one that I > recognize. However, I would guess that it was part of the turnkey > system sold to the newspaper. Notice that these terminals are on > almost every journalist's desk in the wide shots. They have the Perkin-Elmer look about them. Not the cheapie Fox, but something a little higher up in the product line. Cheers, Chuck From dave09 at dunfield.com Fri Jan 30 17:20:27 2009 From: dave09 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 18:20:27 -0500 Subject: EPROM erase times and lifespan In-Reply-To: <227513.7232.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <49836326.5000504@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <3087FB2F09B8@dunfield.com> > I remember one article that described an incredibly creative, low cost digital camera-like device. > Instead of a CCD, the thing used an ordinary DRAM chip with the cover pried off. The light would > affect the cells of the DRAM, and then the 'image' could be read by the computer. Of course, the > thing was incredibly primitive - the pictures weren't great, but it was an ingenous hack, and a > clever utilization of the light-sensitive nature of these things. This topic seems to come up here every few years... In case anyone wants it, I have a scan of a two-part 1983 Circuit Cellar artical called "Build the Micro D-CAM" which is essentally this, except that he uses the IS32 "Optic RAM" from Micron. I have the datasheet for the IS32 scanned as well, which says "Improved cost standards for binary image sensing (less than $.0003 / element) are delivered through Micron's MT4264 64K dynamic RAM memory chip as the sensing device. The OpticRAM(tm) image sensor is differentiated by packaging with a glass lid (vs the opaque lid used in memory chips) and connection of the normally unused pin 1 for optical threshold reference adjustment". So they actually state that they are using their standard 64k DRAM as the sensor, but it's not clear how modified it is ... ie: what are they doing with pin1 at the die?). I've also got a scan of a 1975 Popular Electronics artical titled "Build CYCLOPS first all solid-state TV camera for experimenters" - it's not clear what he used for the sensor, he just referrs to it as a "1024 element MOS sensor" and mentions that it's packed in "a conventional 16 pin DIP". It's only a 32x32 display, and he uses an oscilloscope for the display device... Dave -- dave09 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From robo58 at optonline.net Fri Jan 30 18:08:49 2009 From: robo58 at optonline.net (ROBO5.8) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 19:08:49 -0500 Subject: Stack Depth requirements for CP/M 2.2 CBIOS In-Reply-To: References: <20090129214801.GN27880@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <001e01c98338$17b98050$472c80f0$@net> Hello, I have rewritten my old systems CP/M 2.2 CBIOS to add an IDE Drive. I've run into a problem that has me stumped. Everything works as long as I don't try and copy or assemble a large Assembly file (>80KB). I will be going along fine and then out of nowhere I will see CP/M request access to Drive "T". My debug info says SELDSK is requesting Drive 0FF00h. I have added debug code to all the CBIOS routines so that they report what they are doing to the console (slow but nice). I've gone through my code many times and tested each routine via an embedded debug monitor. I believe I have added every CP/M 2.2 patch (1-6 and 9)that is specific to the CBIOS including those dealing with Blocking/Deblocking. In the back of my mind I kept wondering if I was exceeding CP/M's Stack Depth. I can find no information on the web or in my doc's that specifies what the maximum Stack usage is for a CBIOS. Do any of you have any thoughts on my Stack Question? Are there other issues with Blocking/Deblocking that become visible with large Disk Drives, and that are not covered in any of the published DRI patches? Thanks for your assistance. Robo From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Jan 30 18:13:58 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 16:13:58 -0800 Subject: Replacing failed powersupplies on qbus PDP-11s References: <49819CFB.9547.67221AD7@cclist.sydex.com>, <4982E8EC.29821.6C32E4BF@cclist.sydex.com>, <200901301641.03497.rtellason@verizon.net> <49830F38.167.6CC87BDA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <498397C6.5504941F@cs.ubc.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 30 Jan 2009 at 16:41, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > > Eh? Why would it do that? > > Read about it: > > http://www.smpstech.com/filter00.htm I believe in that discussion he's referring to objects in their pure form: when he says SMPS he means just the DC-to-DC converter; not what we colloquially refer to as a SMPS, which is really a conventional AC-DC converter (rectifier & filter) followed by a switch-mode DC-DC converter. As I would understand it, the problem with adding the EMI filter to the front of the SM DC-DC converter is that the converter actually draws current from the DC source at a frequency corresponding to the switch-mode frequency, so the current through an input EMI filter is nothing like DC, and you can get AC interaction between the filter and the DC-DC converter. The EMI filter becomes the resonant circuit, and negative resistance characteristics appearing at the the input of the DC-DC converter turn the combination into an oscillator. I believe his discussion is intended to be more of pertinence to DC distribution-bus systems such as in aircraft or telecom (note he refers in a couple of places to 28V distribution). I don't believe he is discussing the situation of adding an EMI filter to the front of a typical 120/240VAC input SMPS. In such supplies the 'lytic filter caps of the AC-DC converter at the beginning of the supply reduce the current-variation frequency to 50/100/60/120Hz (unless there is inadequate filtering), which is not a problem for the EMI filters. (Of course, these supplies generally do include built-in EMI filters at the front). From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 30 18:31:45 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 16:31:45 -0800 Subject: Replacing failed powersupplies on qbus PDP-11s In-Reply-To: <498397C6.5504941F@cs.ubc.ca> References: <49819CFB.9547.67221AD7@cclist.sydex.com>, <498397C6.5504941F@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <49832B71.15204.6D36BBDA@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Jan 2009 at 16:13, Brent Hilpert wrote: > I believe in that discussion he's referring to objects in their pure form: when > he says SMPS he means just the DC-to-DC converter; not what we colloquially > refer to as a SMPS, which is really a conventional AC-DC converter (rectifier & > filter) followed by a switch-mode DC-DC converter. > > As I would understand it, the problem with adding the EMI filter to the front > of the SM DC-DC converter is that the converter actually draws current from the > DC source at a frequency corresponding to the switch-mode frequency, so the > current through an input EMI filter is nothing like DC, and you can get AC > interaction between the filter and the DC-DC converter. The EMI filter becomes > the resonant circuit, and negative resistance characteristics appearing at the > the input of the DC-DC converter turn the combination into an oscillator. Thanks for the elaboration! I hadn't read the whole thing yet, but was mildly surprised at the lede. Your explanation makes sense. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Fri Jan 30 18:45:14 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 17:45:14 -0700 Subject: ebay: 2 vintage cards for apollo workstation In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 30 Jan 2009 15:25:24 -0600. <49837044.60103@gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <49837044.60103 at gmail.com>, Jules Richardson writes: > And I know I've mentioned before that I'd love a DN10k, but there's not > exactly much chance of *that* happening! (I'd love to know how many DN10k's > they sold... not many, I suspect) I have one without a head, keyboard or mouse. Eventually I'd like to recondition it and see about getting it up and running, but realistically its pretty far down on the list. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jan 30 18:28:52 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 16:28:52 -0800 Subject: Stack Depth requirements for CP/M 2.2 CBIOS In-Reply-To: <001e01c98338$17b98050$472c80f0$@net> References: <20090129214801.GN27880@n0jcf.net>, , <001e01c98338$17b98050$472c80f0$@net> Message-ID: <49832AC4.18605.6D3416BA@cclist.sydex.com> On 30 Jan 2009 at 19:08, ROBO5.8 wrote: > I have rewritten my old systems CP/M 2.2 CBIOS to add an IDE Drive. > > I've run into a problem that has me stumped. Everything works as long as I > don't try and copy or assemble a large Assembly file (>80KB). > > I will be going along fine and then out of nowhere I will see CP/M request > access to Drive "T". My debug info says SELDSK is requesting Drive 0FF00h. > > I have added debug code to all the CBIOS routines so that they report what > they are doing to the console (slow but nice). > > I've gone through my code many times and tested each routine via an embedded > debug monitor. I believe I have added every CP/M 2.2 patch (1-6 and 9)that > is specific to the CBIOS including those dealing with Blocking/Deblocking. What do you mean by "large"? I've run 2.2 with disks up to 20MB with no problems. CP/M's stack can't be depended upon for much space at all. Since my BIOS code was interrupt driven, every interrupt service routine started with a change to a private "system" stack. I recall having a lot of problems before doing that. Cheers, Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jan 30 18:57:35 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 19:57:35 -0500 Subject: Seeking reverse-engineers - Apple II VisiCalc In-Reply-To: <4983725D.7080007@gmail.com> References: <200901281800.n0SI0AUu052577@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4980AB42.6010003@media.mit.edu> <6.2.3.4.2.20090129085638.05e74420@mail.threedee.com> <4981C9F6.5020100@gmail.com> <4981D7B1.9050804@iais.fraunhofer.de> <4983725D.7080007@gmail.com> Message-ID: > The problem is finding this stuff - and the task is mind-boggling for a > museum with a general interest. It's probably a bit easier if you're a > private collector with a fairly narrow interest, but even then there's a > need to be in the right place at the right time. Doing the legwork (gasp!) also helps. My van is currently crammed with Data General docs and paper due to the legwork of one of us. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jan 30 18:59:36 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 19:59:36 -0500 Subject: Software preservation (Was: Seeking reverse-engineers - Apple II VisiCalc) In-Reply-To: <498338CC.6050101@media.mit.edu> References: <200901301711.n0UHBs94084317@dewey.classiccmp.org> <498338CC.6050101@media.mit.edu> Message-ID: > Even companies like Thinking Machines, who were > careful and kept off-site backups using Iron Mountain, or > somesuch, when the company went out of business, all these > tapes ended up in a dumpster. (I know this for a fact). I know one guy that might have a slightly differing set of facts. It is probably time I bugged him again, actually. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Jan 30 19:03:15 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 20:03:15 -0500 Subject: Software preservation (Was: Seeking reverse-engineers - Apple II VisiCalc) In-Reply-To: <498314D3.4090605@compsys.to> References: <200901291800.n0TI0EHv069340@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4981FB72.5050905@media.mit.edu> <498314D3.4090605@compsys.to> Message-ID: > For reasons which were never explained, an off-system > tape or other media backup was not available to recover the files. Probably because they were not mainframe people. Of course, getting old stuff out of mainframe people has its own set of problems. The big one is spelled with an "LAW" at the start and a "YERS" at the end. -- Will From evan at snarc.net Fri Jan 30 23:42:39 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 00:42:39 -0500 Subject: Good resource about Alan Kay Message-ID: <000001c98366$bcca7ee0$0301a8c0@evan> Stumbled onto this web site tonight. Looks very good. http://thinkubator.ccsp.sfu.ca/Dynabook From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Jan 31 02:09:21 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 00:09:21 -0800 Subject: Replacing failed powersupplies on qbus PDP-11s References: <49819CFB.9547.67221AD7@cclist.sydex.com>, <498397C6.5504941F@cs.ubc.ca> <49832B71.15204.6D36BBDA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <49840731.2BBE768F@cs.ubc.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 30 Jan 2009 at 16:13, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> > I believe in that discussion he's referring to objects in their pure form: when > > he says SMPS he means just the DC-to-DC converter; not what we colloquially > > refer to as a SMPS, which is really a conventional AC-DC converter (rectifier & > > filter) followed by a switch-mode DC-DC converter. > > > > As I would understand it, the problem with adding the EMI filter to the front > > of the SM DC-DC converter is that the converter actually draws current from the > > DC source at a frequency corresponding to the switch-mode frequency, so the > > current through an input EMI filter is nothing like DC, and you can get AC > > interaction between the filter and the DC-DC converter. The EMI filter becomes > > the resonant circuit, and negative resistance characteristics appearing at the > > the input of the DC-DC converter turn the combination into an oscillator. > > Thanks for the elaboration! I hadn't read the whole thing yet, but > was mildly surprised at the lede. Your explanation makes sense. Hmmm.. thinking about it a bit more, maybe I better backtrack a bit: > > I don't believe he is discussing the situation of adding an EMI filter to the > > front of a typical 120/240VAC input SMPS. In such supplies the 'lytic filter > > caps of the AC-DC converter at the beginning of the supply reduce the > > current-variation frequency to 50/100/60/120Hz (unless there is inadequate > > filtering), When the rectifiers of the AC-DC converter turn on (conduct) at the peaks of the 50/60Hz mains sine wave, there will be a switch-mode-frequency component in the current drawn from the mains, so there may still be an issue for an AC mains EMI filter. How long those bursts are depends on the conduction angle of the rectifiers, as determined by the final load demand, but it will be many cycles at the switch-mode f. Perhaps this is (one reason) why these supplies have built-in EMI filters on the AC input, so that that filter can be tailored to the rest of the SM design. Nonetheless, I suspect that by the time you get to the front of that internal EMI filter (to the IEC connector or outside the power supply box, so to speak), there is no longer ((in modern supplies), much of) a problem, as this (in part) is what the internal EMI filter is there to deal with. I wonder if this is one reason that early SMPS's, when perhaps such issues as this were not dealt with as well, were prone to seemingly arbitrary self-destruction. (.. All of which serves to reinforce your original point: that the functioning of these things involves a lot of issues beyond the basic principles as commonly presented.) From dave at drcircuits.com Fri Jan 30 21:07:12 2009 From: dave at drcircuits.com (dave at drcircuits.com) Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 19:07:12 -0800 Subject: FSOT: two Lear Siegler ADM-3A terminals Message-ID: <68CD3F7C79F343459AD2C41ED6CFE994@DAVE> Advise availability of ADM-3 or 3A dave at drcircuits.com From innfoclassics at gmail.com Sat Jan 31 03:43:36 2009 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 01:43:36 -0800 Subject: ebay: 2 vintage cards for apollo workstation In-Reply-To: <49837044.60103@gmail.com> References: <49837044.60103@gmail.com> Message-ID: >> I guess people aren't really collecting Apollo workstation stuff. A >> shame, really. > > I've never seen a genuine early Apollo (2xx or 3xx). There still seem to be > 3x00 and 4x00-series machines around, although they're by no means common. > They seem to be of that class of machine where they're still out there > lurking, but it's difficult to get in touch with any of the owners who still > have one. > > I've got a hankering after one of the "last of the line" 4xx-series (i.e. > the last genuine Apollos before they became 7xx PA-RISC HP-UX boxes) as > they're stylish vintage systems, but still fast enough to feel "useful". > Fantastic build quality, too. Sadly they seem far rarer than the 3xxx/4xxx > boxes (and IME 2/3 of them have long since lost their Domain keyboard) > > I've got archives of Domain OS 10.2, which I'm keeping for a rainy day when > I eventually do find a 4xx... (of course Domain comes into its own when you > have multiple systems, so I'd really like several 4xx systems ;) > > And I know I've mentioned before that I'd love a DN10k, but there's not > exactly much chance of *that* happening! (I'd love to know how many DN10k's > they sold... not many, I suspect) I saw a 660 in Portland Oregon about 5 years ago at a scrappers. No Kbd or monitor. I have a DN 570 in storage with KBD and monitor. About 17 years ago I had 4 320s and 330s. I wish I had kept one. I really liked playing with it. I sold my last 330 in a farmers auction ourside of Canby Oregon in 1995 or so. It may still be in some farmers barn. There used to be several DN10,000s in the Portland area but that was about 10 years ago, Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From innfoclassics at gmail.com Sat Jan 31 03:47:33 2009 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 01:47:33 -0800 Subject: Tektronix 4014-1 & unknown cards In-Reply-To: <4983244F.8080909@bitsavers.org> References: <4983244F.8080909@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > 4115/4125 uses an x86 processor > > At one time, I had the full set of manuals for the 4115, while the company > I was working for was trying to write an emulation for it. The service > manual > in particular seems very hard to find now. I think I have a board set for a 4125 in storage, unfortunitely no chassis. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sat Jan 31 03:49:18 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 09:49:18 +0000 Subject: FSOT: two Lear Siegler ADM-3A terminals In-Reply-To: <68CD3F7C79F343459AD2C41ED6CFE994@DAVE> References: <68CD3F7C79F343459AD2C41ED6CFE994@DAVE> Message-ID: <1233395358.28619.11.camel@elric> On Fri, 2009-01-30 at 19:07 -0800, dave at drcircuits.com wrote: > Advise availability of ADM-3 or 3A PROTIP: When posting on an email mailing list, write in complete sentences so that other users can understand you. GOrdon From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sat Jan 31 05:05:56 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 11:05:56 +0000 Subject: Seeking reverse-engineers - Apple II VisiCalc In-Reply-To: <927624.24874.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <927624.24874.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1233399956.28619.15.camel@elric> On Fri, 2009-01-30 at 22:53 +0000, Andrew Burton wrote: > Regarding harddrives full of junk, I have a work colleague who's > partner sticks all her photo's straight onto their home computer > filling up the harddrive. I have a stack of 80-quid drives. You may not be familiar with this unit of measurement, but basically it's the amount of space you can buy for about 80 quid including VAT. They range from 30GB up to 320GB (got a couple of the latter, actually). About once every couple of years when a drive gets full, I pull it and buy another... Gordon From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Jan 31 06:08:07 2009 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 07:08:07 -0500 Subject: FSOT: two Lear Siegler ADM-3A terminals In-Reply-To: <1233395358.28619.11.camel@elric> References: <68CD3F7C79F343459AD2C41ED6CFE994@DAVE> <1233395358.28619.11.camel@elric> Message-ID: <49843F27.2090904@gmail.com> Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: > On Fri, 2009-01-30 at 19:07 -0800, dave at drcircuits.com wrote: >> Advise availability of ADM-3 or 3A > > PROTIP: When posting on an email mailing list, write in complete > sentences so that other users can understand you. I just ignore that guy. He seems to not understand the difference between "FS" and "WTB". Peace... Sridhar From robo58 at optonline.net Sat Jan 31 06:54:55 2009 From: robo58 at optonline.net (ROBO5.8) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 07:54:55 -0500 Subject: Stack Depth requirements for CP/M 2.2 CBIOS In-Reply-To: <49832AC4.18605.6D3416BA@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20090129214801.GN27880@n0jcf.net> <001e01c98338$17b98050$472c80f0$@net> <49832AC4.18605.6D3416BA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <002701c983a3$1db32f40$59198dc0$@net> Hi Chuck, Thanks for the reply. My IDE drive is about 2GB which is overkill and beyond the capacities of CP/M 2.2. So I'm only using 20MB of the drive for this project. My system uses Interrupts for Floppy but polling for the IDE. In the mid 70's and early 80's I did lots of CBIOS work and never ran into stack problems with CP/M. Maybe the code was simpler and I used fewer Calls, Pushes and Pop's. I am currently using a Private Stack for some of my CBIOS debug routines since they are more stack intensive. Did you find that you had to make any other changes to the Blocking/Deblocking code other than the recommended CP/M 2.2 patches for success? Thanks Robo -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 7:29 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Stack Depth requirements for CP/M 2.2 CBIOS On 30 Jan 2009 at 19:08, ROBO5.8 wrote: > I have rewritten my old systems CP/M 2.2 CBIOS to add an IDE Drive. > > I've run into a problem that has me stumped. Everything works as long as I > don't try and copy or assemble a large Assembly file (>80KB). > > I will be going along fine and then out of nowhere I will see CP/M request > access to Drive "T". My debug info says SELDSK is requesting Drive 0FF00h. > > I have added debug code to all the CBIOS routines so that they report what > they are doing to the console (slow but nice). > > I've gone through my code many times and tested each routine via an embedded > debug monitor. I believe I have added every CP/M 2.2 patch (1-6 and 9)that > is specific to the CBIOS including those dealing with Blocking/Deblocking. What do you mean by "large"? I've run 2.2 with disks up to 20MB with no problems. CP/M's stack can't be depended upon for much space at all. Since my BIOS code was interrupt driven, every interrupt service routine started with a change to a private "system" stack. I recall having a lot of problems before doing that. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 31 08:22:46 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 06:22:46 -0800 Subject: Stack Depth requirements for CP/M 2.2 CBIOS In-Reply-To: <002701c983a3$1db32f40$59198dc0$@net> References: <20090129214801.GN27880@n0jcf.net>, <49832AC4.18605.6D3416BA@cclist.sydex.com>, <002701c983a3$1db32f40$59198dc0$@net> Message-ID: <4983EE36.1295.702F89E7@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Jan 2009 at 7:54, ROBO5.8 wrote: > Did you find that you had to make any other changes to the > Blocking/Deblocking code other than the recommended CP/M 2.2 patches for > success? Hi Robo, The CBIOS that I wrote used interrupts for just about every service, including video refresh, timer and alarm-clock functions, printer and keyboard I/O as well as serial and HPIB I/O--a separate stack was pretty much madatory. I think I still have the code kicking around (ties neatly into another discussion thread, doesn't it?) If you'd like, I can dig it out and forward you the disk I/O code at least as far as blocking/deblocking is concerned. It's been 30 (gasp) years since I worked with it, so my memory of the details is a bit fuzzy. But I seem to recall that we did apply all of the patches that were sent along by DRI. I am certain that the CBIOS implementation could build itself, which says something concerning your problem, as that probably ran to somewhere around 4000-5000 lines of code. Cheers, Chuck From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Jan 31 10:17:44 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 11:17:44 -0500 Subject: FSOT: two Lear Siegler ADM-3A terminals In-Reply-To: <49843F27.2090904@gmail.com> References: <68CD3F7C79F343459AD2C41ED6CFE994@DAVE> <1233395358.28619.11.camel@elric> <49843F27.2090904@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200901311117.44356.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday 31 January 2009, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: > > On Fri, 2009-01-30 at 19:07 -0800, dave at drcircuits.com wrote: > >> Advise availability of ADM-3 or 3A > > > > PROTIP: When posting on an email mailing list, write in complete > > sentences so that other users can understand you. > > I just ignore that guy. He seems to not understand the difference > between "FS" and "WTB". I'd be suprised if he's not just trying to reply to a message from the archives and has no idea that it went to a mailing list instead of a reply to the original author, just like what happens about once a month and a bunch of people reply like they can't figure that out. In any case, I replied directly to him a week or two ago at the last time he mailed the list, and got no response. It's possible he didn't like my response of "what will you pay for one?". Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From slawmaster at gmail.com Sat Jan 31 11:37:23 2009 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 12:37:23 -0500 Subject: FSOT: two Lear Siegler ADM-3A terminals In-Reply-To: <68CD3F7C79F343459AD2C41ED6CFE994@DAVE> References: <68CD3F7C79F343459AD2C41ED6CFE994@DAVE> Message-ID: <7d3530220901310937o5ceedef5gf8d4dd56784d736e@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jan 30, 2009 at 10:07 PM, wrote: > Advise availability of ADM-3 or 3A > > > > dave at drcircuits.com > > Major Tom this is Ground Control, unable to advise on ADM-3 suggest low-altitude pass and return to normality. John -- "I've tried programming Ruby on Rails, following TechCrunch in my RSS reader, and drinking absinthe. It doesn't work. I'm going back to C, Hunter S. Thompson, and cheap whiskey." -- Ted Dziuba From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 31 12:51:37 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 18:51:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Replacing failed powersupplies on qbus PDP-11s In-Reply-To: <49830F38.167.6CC87BDA@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 30, 9 02:31:20 pm Message-ID: > > On 30 Jan 2009 at 16:41, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > > Eh? Why would it do that? > > Read about it: > > http://www.smpstech.com/filter00.htm > > Interestingly, the real-world example cited is the addition of an=20 > input filter to a PDP 11/40... Which would be curious if true, since no standard PDP11/40 used an SMPSU. Switching _regulators_, sure, but the PSU starts with a large mains-frequency transofrmer, which is not going to have much of an HF response. Howev,er I read the article as that the author had run some simulation software on an 11/40 to study the preformace of another PSU. And that makes a lot mroe sense. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Jan 31 12:46:42 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 18:46:42 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Replacing failed powersupplies on qbus PDP-11s In-Reply-To: <4982E8EC.29821.6C32E4BF@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 30, 9 11:47:56 am Message-ID: > > On 30 Jan 2009 at 18:52, Tony Duell wrote: > > > The design _is_ something of a black art (in particular the design of the > > transformer -- the exact characteristics of that are critical to the > > design). But repairing an SMPSU that has worked (and in th case of a DEC > > Q-bus box, has been made many time,s and has worked well for years in > > general) is a lot easier. You know the basic deisgn ins sound, you know > > that particular transformer can work in that circuit, and so on. > > While repair is interesting in its own right, it's the design that > really shows the mind (or lack thereof) of the engineer. For Agreed, but the OP was interested in repairing them, I believe. > example, it never occurred to me that putting an EMI line filter in > front of a SMPSU, while it may not disable, may compromise its > operation. Presumably because the SMPSU can draw 'spikes' of current when the chopper decice turens on. Such spikes have a significant high-frequency component.. However, I am pretty sure that any supply that had a significant high-frequency compoent to its input current would not meet the appropriate regulations in Europe, and could not carry a CE mark. It would also be a poor design IMHO. You have no idea of the high-frequency characteristics of the supply mains. While the low-frewuency impendance is clearly pretty low (think of the short circuit current :-)), the HF impecnace is going to be a lot higher. > How many engineers have simply spec-ed an off-the-shelf PSU and stuck > it after one of those dandy little fuse-receptacle-power-switch-EMI > filter boxes without thinking to ask the PSU manufacturer if it was > advisable to do so? It certainly wouldn't have occurred to me. Err, have you ever tried getting useful information out of manufacturers? -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 31 14:33:01 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 12:33:01 -0800 Subject: Replacing failed powersupplies on qbus PDP-11s In-Reply-To: References: <4982E8EC.29821.6C32E4BF@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 30, 9 11:47:56 am, Message-ID: <498444FD.4729.71827D63@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Jan 2009 at 18:46, Tony Duell wrote: > Err, have you ever tried getting useful information out of manufacturers? Depends on your association. If your firm orders SMPSUs by the thousand, you tend not to have much trouble getting information--if the vendor wants to keep the account. I never had much trouble dealing with Intel Application engineers when working with the early steppings of the 80186 and 80286. It didn't hurt that Bill Davidow sat on our board, however... Cheers, Chuck From blstuart at bellsouth.net Sat Jan 31 14:53:41 2009 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (blstuart at bellsouth.net) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 14:53:41 -0600 Subject: EPROM erase times and lifespan In-Reply-To: <49836326.5000504@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <0d21dde7c929acf93c1249e8882e2b51@bellsouth.net> > One thing that's sometimes worth a quick demo is the propensity of EPROMs to > temporarily lose their programming when nailed with high-intensity light from, > say, a camera flash. That caught me out a few times -- I've got a couple of That also caught IBM when introducing the 701, though it wasn't EPROMs. If I remember the story correctly, they used one of the forms of CRT memory systems in the machine. Originally, it seemed like a good idea to make the tubes visible both because it looked cool and because you could see what the machine was doing. But at the press introduction, they fired off flashbulbs and the light interacting with the memory devies crashed the machine. Watson dictated that the plexiglass be replaced by a steel plate. (Caution, this is the story as my fuzzy memory recalls it. I may have gotten some details wrong or have lost some due to wetware bitrot. YMMV) BLS From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Jan 31 17:00:59 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 23:00:59 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Seeking reverse-engineers - Apple II VisiCalc In-Reply-To: <1233399956.28619.15.camel@elric> Message-ID: <914922.80007.qm@web23407.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Yeah, I know you can get large drives (I think I saw a 1TB drive on Amazon for ?100-?200 ($150~$300) a few weeks back) cheaply now, but his computer was around ~10 years old (so I wasn't sure about compatibilty issues etc.) and he has higher priorities (mortgage, kids etc.) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Sat, 31/1/09, Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: From: Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ Subject: Re: Seeking reverse-engineers - Apple II VisiCalc To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Saturday, 31 January, 2009, 11:05 AM On Fri, 2009-01-30 at 22:53 +0000, Andrew Burton wrote: > Regarding harddrives full of junk, I have a work colleague who's > partner sticks all her photo's straight onto their home computer > filling up the harddrive. I have a stack of 80-quid drives. You may not be familiar with this unit of measurement, but basically it's the amount of space you can buy for about 80 quid including VAT. They range from 30GB up to 320GB (got a couple of the latter, actually). About once every couple of years when a drive gets full, I pull it and buy another... Gordon From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Sat Jan 31 19:34:05 2009 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 17:34:05 -0800 Subject: DRAM Imager ( was: EPROM erase times and lifespan ) References: <49836326.5000504@philpem.me.uk> <3087FB2F09B8@dunfield.com> Message-ID: <002c01c9840d$2bf5f370$0201a8c0@hal9000> Dave, The Cyclops you mentioned below ( from 1975 ) used a MOSTEK 4008 with an Optical window. There is a guy still selling them for a " mere " $35 if you are so inclined. You cannot just use a standard 64K DRAM chip for an imager because the cells are not necessarily contiguous ( because of yield problems there is redundancy and sections are added or subtracted to yield a usable device ). They're also usually built into at least two 32K sections. Best regards, Steven > > I remember one article that described an incredibly creative, low cost digital camera-like device. > > Instead of a CCD, the thing used an ordinary DRAM chip with the cover pried off. The light would > > affect the cells of the DRAM, and then the 'image' could be read by the computer. Of course, the > > thing was incredibly primitive - the pictures weren't great, but it was an ingenous hack, and a > > clever utilization of the light-sensitive nature of these things. > > This topic seems to come up here every few years... > > In case anyone wants it, I have a scan of a two-part 1983 Circuit Cellar > artical called "Build the Micro D-CAM" which is essentally this, except > that he uses the IS32 "Optic RAM" from Micron. > > I have the datasheet for the IS32 scanned as well, which says "Improved cost > standards for binary image sensing (less than $.0003 / element) are delivered > through Micron's MT4264 64K dynamic RAM memory chip as the sensing device. > The OpticRAM(tm) image sensor is differentiated by packaging with a glass lid > (vs the opaque lid used in memory chips) and connection of the normally unused > pin 1 for optical threshold reference adjustment". > > So they actually state that they are using their standard 64k DRAM as the > sensor, but it's not clear how modified it is ... ie: what are they doing with > pin1 at the die?). > > I've also got a scan of a 1975 Popular Electronics artical titled "Build CYCLOPS > first all solid-state TV camera for experimenters" - it's not clear what he used > for the sensor, he just referrs to it as a "1024 element MOS sensor" and mentions > that it's packed in "a conventional 16 pin DIP". It's only a 32x32 display, and > he uses an oscilloscope for the display device... > > Dave From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Jan 31 20:18:58 2009 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 20:18:58 -0600 Subject: Seeking reverse-engineers - Apple II VisiCalc In-Reply-To: <4981D7B1.9050804@iais.fraunhofer.de> References: <200901281800.n0SI0AUu052577@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4980AB42.6010003@media.mit.edu> <6.2.3.4.2.20090129085638.05e74420@mail.threedee.com> <4981C9F6.5020100@gmail.com> <4981D7B1.9050804@iais.fraunhofer.de> Message-ID: <49850692.3060800@oldskool.org> Holger Veit wrote: > BlueRay (which I give 2 years > until the next technology will be thrown on the customer obsoleting the > format). Don't bet on it. Blu-Ray is the last consumer-deliverable physical media, which means it is the last consumer archival media. The entire entertainment industry has seen the writing on the wall and is moving toward digital distribution. There will not be a successor to Blu-Ray. In the future, we won't be burning to pieces of plastic for archiving. I fully expect to be archiving exclusively to hard disks in 10 years and SSDs in 15. Eventually in 25 years all storage (flash/ssd/hard disks/tape/BD-R/DVD-R/etc.) will converge into a single technology. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jan 31 20:50:54 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 18:50:54 -0800 Subject: Seeking reverse-engineers - Apple II VisiCalc In-Reply-To: <49850692.3060800@oldskool.org> References: <200901281800.n0SI0AUu052577@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <4981D7B1.9050804@iais.fraunhofer.de>, <49850692.3060800@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <49849D8E.8928.72DC0F16@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Jan 2009 at 20:18, Jim Leonard wrote: > Don't bet on it. Blu-Ray is the last consumer-deliverable physical > media, which means it is the last consumer archival media. The entire > entertainment industry has seen the writing on the wall and is moving > toward digital distribution. There will not be a successor to Blu-Ray. > > In the future, we won't be burning to pieces of plastic for archiving. > I fully expect to be archiving exclusively to hard disks in 10 years and > SSDs in 15. Eventually in 25 years all storage (flash/ssd/hard > disks/tape/BD-R/DVD-R/etc.) will converge into a single technology. Why do I get this feeling that we're writing our history in quicksand? Letters the young Mozart exchanged with his sister are still extant to give us a unique peek into the composer's mind. Will we have the emails of a modern Mozart to similarly peruse in the future? We already have the phenomeon of mainstream media "correcting" their online content leaving no trace of error behind. No more "Dewey beats Truman" headlines... Sigh, Chuck From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Sat Jan 31 22:40:01 2009 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 20:40:01 -0800 Subject: Storage Media ( was: Seeking reverse-engineers - Apple II VisiCalc ) References: <200901281800.n0SI0AUu052577@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4980AB42.6010003@media.mit.edu> <6.2.3.4.2.20090129085638.05e74420@mail.threedee.com> <4981C9F6.5020100@gmail.com> <4981D7B1.9050804@iais.fraunhofer.de> <49850692.3060800@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <001901c98427$2538cc00$0201a8c0@hal9000> Jim is right ( write ? ); IBM is working on a Lithium Niobate ( LiNbO3 ) Holographic memory that could store tens of Terabytes in a chunk the size of a sugar cube. Because of optics issues this would have to be a non-removable media for now. Kiss your DVDs goodbye. ( reference: LASER Focus World ). Best regards, Steven > Holger Veit wrote: > > BlueRay (which I give 2 years > > until the next technology will be thrown on the customer obsoleting the > > format). > > Don't bet on it. Blu-Ray is the last consumer-deliverable physical > media, which means it is the last consumer archival media. The entire > entertainment industry has seen the writing on the wall and is moving > toward digital distribution. There will not be a successor to Blu-Ray. > > In the future, we won't be burning to pieces of plastic for archiving. > I fully expect to be archiving exclusively to hard disks in 10 years and > SSDs in 15. Eventually in 25 years all storage (flash/ssd/hard > disks/tape/BD-R/DVD-R/etc.) will converge into a single technology. > -- > Jim Leonard From chrise at pobox.com Sat Jan 31 06:38:22 2009 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 06:38:22 -0600 Subject: Can anyone identify this terminal? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090131123822.GQ26511@n0jcf.net> On Friday (01/30/2009 at 04:08PM -0700), Richard wrote: > > In article , > Seth Morabito writes: > > > A friend forwarded me this YouTube link today: > > > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WCTn4FljUQ > > [...] > > Anyone know what kind of terminal this is? I'd freaking LOVE to have > > one of those on my desk. > > Being the resident terminal freak on this list, its not one that I > recognize. However, I would guess that it was part of the turnkey > system sold to the newspaper. Notice that these terminals are on > almost every journalist's desk in the wide shots. Could they possibly be 3M "SilentWriters"?? 3M once built both a thermal printer with keyboard, a lot like a little TI Silent 700, which they called the WhisperWriter. And then they had a CRT terminal called the SilentWriter. I suggest this because of the characteristic brown keyboard that those units had... which it appears the ones in the video also have. Chris From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Sat Jan 31 10:38:58 2009 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (CSquared) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 10:38:58 -0600 Subject: Replacing failed powersupplies on qbus PDP-11s References: <200901302257.n0UMv4ZT089712@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <001e01c983c2$6af07f50$6400a8c0@acerd3c08b49af> On Fri, 30 Jan 2009 Chuck Guzis said: > Read about it: > > http://www.smpstech.com/filter00.htm > > Interestingly, the real-world example cited is the addition of an > input filter to a PDP 11/40... The part of this that really amazes me is where it says something like "long power supply input lines" can also cause problems or oscillation. I suppose this includes for example all the wiring in my house or at the office, over which I have no control and very little detailed knowledge. I wonder if the effective length of the AC input line is all the way back to the transformer on the pole or wherever? If my guesses are correct then it is sort of scary to plug in any SMPS anywhere! I would hope that most SMPS these days have an input circuit that is reasonably immune to most of these problems, but I certainly don't know that. BTW, I have been reading the digest form of this group for a couple of years now but I think this is the first time I have posted a reply of any sort. If I goofed it up, profuse apologies in advance! Later, Charlie C. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Jan 31 10:56:56 2009 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 11:56:56 -0500 Subject: Stack Depth requirements for CP/M 2.2 CBIOS Message-ID: <0KEC008MAHPOV2R8@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Stack Depth requirements for CP/M 2.2 CBIOS > From: "ROBO5.8" > Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 19:08:49 -0500 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only'" > >Hello, > >I have rewritten my old systems CP/M 2.2 CBIOS to add an IDE Drive. > >I've run into a problem that has me stumped. Everything works as long as I >don't try and copy or assemble a large Assembly file (>80KB). > >I will be going along fine and then out of nowhere I will see CP/M request >access to Drive "T". My debug info says SELDSK is requesting Drive 0FF00h. > Ok this is easy. CP/M 2.x (2.2 nominal) can only address 16 logical drives so that's limitation one. Each drive is limited to 8Mb (65525sectors*128bytes). If you use one of the CP/M like imperoved work a likes this is less an issue and logical drives can be much larger (up to 1gb). >I have added debug code to all the CBIOS routines so that they report what >they are doing to the console (slow but nice). > >I've gone through my code many times and tested each routine via an embedded >debug monitor. I believe I have added every CP/M 2.2 patch (1-6 and 9)that >is specific to the CBIOS including those dealing with Blocking/Deblocking. Good but likely not the problem itself. > >In the back of my mind I kept wondering if I was exceeding CP/M's Stack >Depth. I can find no information on the web or in my doc's that specifies >what the maximum Stack usage is for a CBIOS. This does not could like a stack size issue. That tends to be very static for any disk size. >Do any of you have any thoughts on my Stack Question? Are there other >issues with Blocking/Deblocking that become visible with large Disk Drives, >and that are not covered in any of the published DRI patches? Wrong plase to look. Likely areas of breakage: More than 16 drives Alloc storage areas inadaquately sized or overlapping BIOS local variables being trashed. Bios logic in error (deblock, sector addressing other??) Allison >Thanks for your assistance. >Robo From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Jan 31 11:01:05 2009 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 12:01:05 -0500 Subject: Stack Depth requirements for CP/M 2.2 CBIOS Message-ID: <0KEC00898HWLV0D5@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Stack Depth requirements for CP/M 2.2 CBIOS > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 16:28:52 -0800 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 30 Jan 2009 at 19:08, ROBO5.8 wrote: > >> I have rewritten my old systems CP/M 2.2 CBIOS to add an IDE Drive. >> >> I've run into a problem that has me stumped. Everything works as long as I >> don't try and copy or assemble a large Assembly file (>80KB). >> >> I will be going along fine and then out of nowhere I will see CP/M request >> access to Drive "T". My debug info says SELDSK is requesting Drive 0FF00h. >> >> I have added debug code to all the CBIOS routines so that they report what >> they are doing to the console (slow but nice). >> >> I've gone through my code many times and tested each routine via an embedded >> debug monitor. I believe I have added every CP/M 2.2 patch (1-6 and 9)that >> is specific to the CBIOS including those dealing with Blocking/Deblocking. > >What do you mean by "large"? I've run 2.2 with disks up to 20MB with >no problems. I have many systems with a minimum of 10mb drives and one has a two 32mb and the other has 45mb SCSI/ However partitions are limited to 8Mb as its' CP/M2.2. >CP/M's stack can't be depended upon for much space at all. Since my >BIOS code was interrupt driven, every interrupt service routine >started with a change to a private "system" stack. I recall having a >lot of problems before doing that. > Nominally one should preserve the stack and have one locally for that reason. Howeer if the BIOS is using the minimal IO drivers (no interrupts) the stack should be fine. Hoever is acc to drive "T" says he either has more than 16 partitions or he is crushing drive select. Allison >Cheers, >Chuck > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Jan 31 11:07:10 2009 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 12:07:10 -0500 Subject: Stack Depth requirements for CP/M 2.2 CBIOS Message-ID: <0KEC004JCI6R1GS1@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: Stack Depth requirements for CP/M 2.2 CBIOS > From: "ROBO5.8" > Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 07:54:55 -0500 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only'" > >Hi Chuck, > >Thanks for the reply. > >My IDE drive is about 2GB which is overkill and beyond the capacities of >CP/M 2.2. So I'm only using 20MB of the drive for this project. My system >uses Interrupts for Floppy but polling for the IDE. Anything under 16drives of 8mb will fly (128mb) and not using the full drive is not an issue. >In the mid 70's and early 80's I did lots of CBIOS work and never ran into >stack problems with CP/M. Maybe the code was simpler and I used fewer >Calls, Pushes and Pop's. > >I am currently using a Private Stack for some of my CBIOS debug routines >since they are more stack intensive. > >Did you find that you had to make any other changes to the >Blocking/Deblocking code other than the recommended CP/M 2.2 patches for >success? I'dn look at drive selection and allocation vector (alloc) for a 8mb logical drive that nees to be at least for 4kb allocation size should be at least 256bytes for each drive! You can make it smaller by making the allocation chunks larger (8kb would only need 128bytes). I've never had stack size issues for just disk IO but interrrupt handlers yes always on creatign private stack. I generally develop the disk IO with minimal polled IO to limit the number of things that can go wrong and ones the disk IO is up then roll in the interrupt IO and added features. Allison > >Thanks Robo > > >-----Original Message----- >From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] >On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis >Sent: Friday, January 30, 2009 7:29 PM >To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >Subject: Re: Stack Depth requirements for CP/M 2.2 CBIOS > >On 30 Jan 2009 at 19:08, ROBO5.8 wrote: > >> I have rewritten my old systems CP/M 2.2 CBIOS to add an IDE Drive. >> >> I've run into a problem that has me stumped. Everything works as long as >I >> don't try and copy or assemble a large Assembly file (>80KB). >> >> I will be going along fine and then out of nowhere I will see CP/M request >> access to Drive "T". My debug info says SELDSK is requesting Drive >0FF00h. >> >> I have added debug code to all the CBIOS routines so that they report what >> they are doing to the console (slow but nice). >> >> I've gone through my code many times and tested each routine via an >embedded >> debug monitor. I believe I have added every CP/M 2.2 patch (1-6 and >9)that >> is specific to the CBIOS including those dealing with Blocking/Deblocking. > >What do you mean by "large"? I've run 2.2 with disks up to 20MB with >no problems. > >CP/M's stack can't be depended upon for much space at all. Since my >BIOS code was interrupt driven, every interrupt service routine >started with a change to a private "system" stack. I recall having a >lot of problems before doing that. > >Cheers, >Chuck > >