From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Feb 1 00:38:45 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 01:38:45 -0500 Subject: EPROM erase times and lifespan In-Reply-To: <0d21dde7c929acf93c1249e8882e2b51@bellsouth.net> References: <0d21dde7c929acf93c1249e8882e2b51@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <1B65B7A9-22A8-4300-B573-73FF9DAE1FF5@neurotica.com> On Jan 31, 2009, at 3:53 PM, blstuart at bellsouth.net wrote: >> One thing that's sometimes worth a quick demo is the propensity of >> EPROMs to >> temporarily lose their programming when nailed with high-intensity >> light from, >> say, a camera flash. That caught me out a few times -- I've got a >> couple of > > That also caught IBM when introducing the 701, > though it wasn't EPROMs. If I remember the story > correctly, they used one of the forms of CRT memory > systems in the machine. Originally, it seemed like > a good idea to make the tubes visible both because > it looked cool and because you could see what the > machine was doing. But at the press introduction, > they fired off flashbulbs and the light interacting > with the memory devies crashed the machine. > Watson dictated that the plexiglass be replaced > by a steel plate. I build a lot of stuff with 8751 chips. They will usually crash when a camera flash is aimed at them. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sun Feb 1 00:38:07 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 04:38:07 -0200 Subject: Seeking reverse-engineers - Apple II VisiCalc References: <914922.80007.qm@web23407.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <007301c98437$c5a9ff50$46fea8c0@DeskJara> > Regarding harddrives full of junk, I have a work colleague who's > partner sticks all her photo's straight onto their home computer > filling up the harddrive. Same I do here, I have all my photos online on my server, along some "extras" :) That's what home networking is about :oD From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Sun Feb 1 01:14:15 2009 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 23:14:15 -0800 Subject: KAYPRO 10 - Need Help Please References: <0d21dde7c929acf93c1249e8882e2b51@bellsouth.net> <1B65B7A9-22A8-4300-B573-73FF9DAE1FF5@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <001601c9843c$b163c620$0201a8c0@hal9000> I rescued two ( more like 1 3/4 ) KAYPRO 10 machines headed for euthanasia. I repaired the LVPS in the first unit and it comes up (?) but I think it is waiting for something ( like a BOOT disk ? ). They both ( machines ) have one half-height 5 1/4 floppy drive and one half-height 10 MByte hard drive. So far both of the CPU boards do exactly the same thing, after RESET it puts up the following prompt on the CRT; * KAYPRO 10 v1.9e * Anyone know what if anything it is waiting for ( I can't believe it wouldn't BOOT off of the hard drive, but I don't know any better ) ?? The 10 MB Ready light for the hard disk does come on ( for what it is worth...). Better yet, anyone want a couple ( or one ) KAYPRO 10s to screw around with and add to your collection ? They are built pretty tough ! Make an offer that will cover my Super Bowl beer fund and you're in business ! Because of their weight, probably limited to domestic USA shipping ( from Southern CA ). Best regards, Steven From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Feb 1 01:11:16 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 31 Jan 2009 23:11:16 -0800 Subject: Storage Media ( was: Seeking reverse-engineers - Apple II VisiCalc ) In-Reply-To: <001901c98427$2538cc00$0201a8c0@hal9000> References: <200901281800.n0SI0AUu052577@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4980AB42.6010003@media.mit.edu> <6.2.3.4.2.20090129085638.05e74420@mail.threedee.com> <4981C9F6.5020100@gmail.com> <4981D7B1.9050804@iais.fraunhofer.de> <49850692.3060800@oldskool.org> <001901c98427$2538cc00$0201a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: Holographic memory has been right around the corner for *HOW* long? I first heard of working prototypes sometime between '88-90. Zane At 8:40 PM -0800 1/31/09, Scanning wrote: >Jim is right ( write ? ); > >IBM is working on a Lithium Niobate ( LiNbO3 ) Holographic memory that could >store tens of Terabytes in a chunk the size of a sugar cube. Because of >optics issues this would have to be a non-removable media for now. Kiss your >DVDs goodbye. ( reference: LASER Focus World ). > >Best regards, Steven > >> Holger Veit wrote: >> > BlueRay (which I give 2 years >> > until the next technology will be thrown on the customer obsoleting the >> > format). >> >> Don't bet on it. Blu-Ray is the last consumer-deliverable physical >> media, which means it is the last consumer archival media. The entire >> entertainment industry has seen the writing on the wall and is moving >> toward digital distribution. There will not be a successor to Blu-Ray. >> >> In the future, we won't be burning to pieces of plastic for archiving. >> I fully expect to be archiving exclusively to hard disks in 10 years and >> SSDs in 15. Eventually in 25 years all storage (flash/ssd/hard >> disks/tape/BD-R/DVD-R/etc.) will converge into a single technology. >> -- >> Jim Leonard -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Feb 1 02:38:39 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 00:38:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Storage Media ( was: Seeking reverse-engineers - Apple II VisiCalc ) In-Reply-To: References: <200901281800.n0SI0AUu052577@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4980AB42.6010003@media.mit.edu> <6.2.3.4.2.20090129085638.05e74420@mail.threedee.com> <4981C9F6.5020100@gmail.com> <4981D7B1.9050804@iais.fraunhofer.de> <49850692.3060800@oldskool.org> <001901c98427$2538cc00$0201a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: On Sat, 31 Jan 2009, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Holographic memory has been right around the corner for *HOW* long? I first > heard of working prototypes sometime between '88-90. I vaguely recall some TV drama from the 1980s that took place sometime in "the future" that had a scene showing something like this. The main characters were walking through a TV department. Someone put a thumb-sized faceted crystal into a gizmo that resembled a VCR which took it in and shone a laser on it. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun Feb 1 05:32:10 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 11:32:10 +0000 Subject: Replacing failed powersupplies on qbus PDP-11s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1233487930.31679.6.camel@elric> On Sat, 2009-01-31 at 18:51 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > Howev,er I read the article as that the author had run some simulation > software on an 11/40 to study the preformace of another PSU. And that > makes a lot mroe sense. That's what I read too, and the whole article made sense. Simulation == all bets are off. It's never going to tell you anything meaningful. Gordon From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sun Feb 1 06:24:46 2009 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 13:24:46 +0100 (CET) Subject: 720RPM 3.5" FDDs? Message-ID: While looking at datasheets of 3.5" floppy drive motor control ICs, the LB1813 apparently supports four different speeds "out of the box". Pins 15 and 16 are used to select 300, 360, 600 or 720 RPM. So, I know 3.5" drives with one of the first three speeds, but has anyone ever seen a 720 RPM drive? A drive with that IC would be the very common Mitsumi D359. Christian From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sun Feb 1 10:19:15 2009 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 11:19:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: Optically switched control panel? In-Reply-To: <0d21dde7c929acf93c1249e8882e2b51@bellsouth.net> References: <0d21dde7c929acf93c1249e8882e2b51@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: A member of another list thinks he remembers a large computer with a control/maintenance panel that used optical switches to set and clear register bits. The operator would place a finger in a hole/depression, interrupting a light beam to a photosensor, toggling a flip-flop. Did such a system exist, or is this just wishful thinking? Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Feb 1 10:36:09 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 10:36:09 -0600 Subject: Seeking reverse-engineers - Apple II VisiCalc In-Reply-To: <49850692.3060800@oldskool.org> References: <200901281800.n0SI0AUu052577@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4980AB42.6010003@media.mit.edu> <6.2.3.4.2.20090129085638.05e74420@mail.threedee.com> <4981C9F6.5020100@gmail.com> <4981D7B1.9050804@iais.fraunhofer.de> <49850692.3060800@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4985CF79.4010201@gmail.com> Jim Leonard wrote: > Holger Veit wrote: >> BlueRay (which I give 2 years until the next technology will be thrown >> on the customer obsoleting the format). > > Don't bet on it. Blu-Ray is the last consumer-deliverable physical > media, which means it is the last consumer archival media. The entire > entertainment industry has seen the writing on the wall and is moving > toward digital distribution. There will not be a successor to Blu-Ray. > > In the future, we won't be burning to pieces of plastic for archiving. Personally I reckon we'll be dumping it across a network to some remote site; in an interconnected society there's no need for the backup to be on local media at all. Of course that raises *huge* security issues, but by and large people don't seem to care about those if the end result achieves what they want. Governments will love us for it, of course :-) Lots of us already back up across a LAN to a machine (regardless of the storage technology behind the scenes), so it's not a big leap to do that to some off-site server; it's just that the upstream data rates from the home aren't really *quite* there yet. Yes, the back-end will likely be hard disks - but the end-user's experience will just be one of throwing data across a network link. cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Feb 1 10:43:29 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 10:43:29 -0600 Subject: Seeking reverse-engineers - Apple II VisiCalc In-Reply-To: <49849D8E.8928.72DC0F16@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200901281800.n0SI0AUu052577@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <4981D7B1.9050804@iais.fraunhofer.de>, <49850692.3060800@oldskool.org> <49849D8E.8928.72DC0F16@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4985D131.3070202@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Why do I get this feeling that we're writing our history in > quicksand? > > Letters the young Mozart exchanged with his sister are still extant > to give us a unique peek into the composer's mind. Will we have the > emails of a modern Mozart to similarly peruse in the future? Well, lots of ancient paper documents are unearthed damaged or even outright "erased and reused". The following's a good read if you're into that kind of thing: http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/8974/title/A_Prayer_for_Archimedes I suspect that techniques to recover data from modern media will evolve over the years just as they have for paper. Sure, lots of data will be lost - but I'm not sure that's really so much different to paper archives; the amount of data from the "old days" which has outright gone must be staggering in relation to what has survived and is known about. > We already have the phenomeon of mainstream media "correcting" their > online content leaving no trace of error behind. No more "Dewey > beats Truman" headlines... That's the real issue, I think - not the storage mechanism that's used, but our desire to constantly rewrite history. A few hundred years from now it'll be hard to know "the truth" because there'll be so many conflicting opinions and different versions of events recorded. cheers Jules From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Feb 1 12:20:59 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 13:20:59 -0500 Subject: Storage Media ( was: Seeking reverse-engineers - Apple II VisiCalc ) In-Reply-To: References: <200901281800.n0SI0AUu052577@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4980AB42.6010003@media.mit.edu> <6.2.3.4.2.20090129085638.05e74420@mail.threedee.com> <4981C9F6.5020100@gmail.com> <4981D7B1.9050804@iais.fraunhofer.de> <49850692.3060800@oldskool.org> <001901c98427$2538cc00$0201a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: > Holographic memory has been right around the corner for *HOW* long? I first > heard of working prototypes sometime between '88-90. Late 60s, maybe. IBM has been looking into holographic memory for a long time. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 1 12:28:11 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 10:28:11 -0800 Subject: 720RPM 3.5" FDDs? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4985793B.20721.76368FB2@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Feb 2009 at 13:24, Christian Corti wrote: > While looking at datasheets of 3.5" floppy drive motor control ICs, the > LB1813 apparently supports four different speeds "out of the box". Pins 15 > and 16 are used to select 300, 360, 600 or 720 RPM. So, I know 3.5" drives > with one of the first three speeds, but has anyone ever seen a 720 RPM > drive? A drive with that IC would be the very common Mitsumi D359. I've never seen one, but it's logical to suppose that a double-speed drive that handles 1.3MB media has been made. I'd expect to find it in Japan moreso than the West, however, since the Japanese used to be pretty much wedded to the NEC 9801 series archtecture that used 360 RPM drives for everything. Cheers, Chuck From dgahling at hotmail.com Sun Feb 1 12:37:44 2009 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 13:37:44 -0500 Subject: 720RPM 3.5" FDDs? In-Reply-To: <4985793B.20721.76368FB2@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4985793B.20721.76368FB2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: would this in any way to be related to the IBM PC 'ED' disks? the 2.1MB floppies that were out for a while? I have some floppies of that format, not totally sure if I still have the drive though. Dan. > From: cclist at sydex.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 10:28:11 -0800 > Subject: Re: 720RPM 3.5" FDDs? > > On 1 Feb 2009 at 13:24, Christian Corti wrote: > > > While looking at datasheets of 3.5" floppy drive motor control ICs, the > > LB1813 apparently supports four different speeds "out of the box". Pins 15 > > and 16 are used to select 300, 360, 600 or 720 RPM. So, I know 3.5" drives > > with one of the first three speeds, but has anyone ever seen a 720 RPM > > drive? A drive with that IC would be the very common Mitsumi D359. > > I've never seen one, but it's logical to suppose that a double-speed > drive that handles 1.3MB media has been made. I'd expect to find it > in Japan moreso than the West, however, since the Japanese used to be > pretty much wedded to the NEC 9801 series archtecture that used 360 > RPM drives for everything. > > Cheers, > Chuck > _________________________________________________________________ How fun is this? IMing with Windows Live Messenger just got better. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/messenger.aspx From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 1 12:50:01 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 10:50:01 -0800 Subject: 720RPM 3.5" FDDs? In-Reply-To: References: , <4985793B.20721.76368FB2@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <49857E59.4045.764A8929@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Feb 2009 at 13:37, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > would this in any way to be related to the IBM PC 'ED' disks? > the 2.1MB floppies that were out for a while? > I have some floppies of that format, not totally sure if I still have the drive though. I thought the EDs (e.g. Teac FD235J) drives were 300 RPM. Cheers, Chuck From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 1 13:35:45 2009 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 19:35:45 +0000 Subject: 720RPM 3.5" FDDs? In-Reply-To: References: <4985793B.20721.76368FB2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4985F991.8080408@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Dan Gahlinger wrote: > would this in any way to be related to the IBM PC 'ED' disks? > the 2.1MB floppies that were out for a while? > I have some floppies of that format, not totally sure if I still have the drive though. 2.88MB, acording to the label on the eject button of my PS/2 Model 77 :) I have about 10 of the disks that I got when work where throwing them out, I grabbed them as I could make use of them. IIRC there is also a series of floppy controlers for the Sinclair QL that can format these disks to 3.2MB. Cheers. Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Feb 1 13:57:13 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 11:57:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: 720RPM 3.5" FDDs? In-Reply-To: <4985F991.8080408@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <4985793B.20721.76368FB2@cclist.sydex.com> <4985F991.8080408@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <20090201115117.C45012@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 1 Feb 2009, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > 2.88MB, acording to the label on the eject button of my PS/2 Model 77 :) Cue: what kind of perverted size for a Megabyte does it take for those numbers? (2.8 HONEST Megabytes (2^20) ; 2.88 * 2^10 * 10^3) > IIRC there is also a series of floppy controlers for the Sinclair QL > that can format these disks to 3.2MB. How many tracks, sectors per track, bytes per sector? I have 4 LS120s in front of me. Where did I stash the machine with THAT drive? From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 1 13:59:02 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 11:59:02 -0800 Subject: 720RPM 3.5" FDDs? In-Reply-To: <4985F991.8080408@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: , , <4985F991.8080408@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <49858E86.26386.7689BD27@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Feb 2009 at 19:35, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: > IIRC there is also a series of floppy controlers for the Sinclair QL > that can format these disks to 3.2MB. Many PCs (particulary those of the P1-P3 era) can handle ED drives, as the capability is part of the normal Intel controller architecture used in the "Super I/O" chipsets. The Sinclair QL sounds less like a special controller (vs. one the does standard 2.88MB format) than an alternate format (1024 x 20 x 2 x 80 as opposed to 512 x 36 x 2 x 80). I've got a couple of boxes of NIB 3M DSED floppies--I've never found them to be particularly reliable, which might be one of the reasons for the format's demise. There is also a 2.4MB 5.25" format used in some IBM systems. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 1 14:09:46 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 12:09:46 -0800 Subject: 720RPM 3.5" FDDs? In-Reply-To: <20090201115117.C45012@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4985F991.8080408@aurigae.demon.co.uk>, <20090201115117.C45012@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4985910A.16061.769397CC@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Feb 2009 at 11:57, Fred Cisin wrote: > I have 4 LS120s in front of me. Where did I stash the machine with THAT > drive? Dunno, but I'll tell you right off that the LS120 IDE drives have a lot of trouble working with newer hardware and software. I've never got mine to work under Windows XP. Shame, because the LS120 drives spin the disks much faster, even if they're regular "720K or 1.44M" floppies. On the other hand, 20MB SCSI Briar floptical works just fine on XP. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Feb 1 14:22:03 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 12:22:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: 720RPM 3.5" FDDs? In-Reply-To: References: <4985793B.20721.76368FB2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20090201121837.L45469@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 1 Feb 2009, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > would this in any way to be related to the IBM PC 'ED' disks? > the 2.1MB floppies that were out for a while? Good thought, but no. Those were 300 RPM, 1000K bps data transfer rate. 80 tracks, 2 sides, 36 sectors per track, 512 bytes per sector. divided by [how many bytes in a Megabyte?] From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Feb 1 15:05:26 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 15:05:26 -0600 Subject: 720RPM 3.5" FDDs? In-Reply-To: <20090201121837.L45469@shell.lmi.net> References: <4985793B.20721.76368FB2@cclist.sydex.com> <20090201121837.L45469@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <49860E96.6070007@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > [how many bytes in a Megabyte?] As many as your marketing department wants you to have. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 1 15:14:54 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 21:14:54 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Seeking reverse-engineers - Apple II VisiCalc In-Reply-To: <49849D8E.8928.72DC0F16@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jan 31, 9 06:50:54 pm Message-ID: > > In the future, we won't be burning to pieces of plastic for archiving. > > I fully expect to be archiving exclusively to hard disks in 10 years and And I'll probably still be making little holes in 1" wide strips of paper .... > > SSDs in 15. Eventually in 25 years all storage (flash/ssd/hard > > disks/tape/BD-R/DVD-R/etc.) will converge into a single technology. > > Why do I get this feeling that we're writing our history in > quicksand? > > Letters the young Mozart exchanged with his sister are still extant > to give us a unique peek into the composer's mind. Will we have the > emails of a modern Mozart to similarly peruse in the future? Or as I'm fonf of pointing out, if you hand me a glass plate photographic negaticve, I can still make a print from it, even though said negative could be 100 years old. Will anybody be ale to read digital camera memory cards in 100 years time? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 1 15:23:35 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 21:23:35 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Replacing failed powersupplies on qbus PDP-11s In-Reply-To: <1233487930.31679.6.camel@elric> from "Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ" at Feb 1, 9 11:32:10 am Message-ID: > Simulation == all bets are off. It's never going to tell you anything > meaningful. I wouldn't go that far, for all I am one of the people least likely to use or trust a simulation. I would say that a simulation is only as good as the model and the data, and that in most cases you haven't much of a clue about how either of those relates to reality. For example, a circuit similation may only be meanigful if you correctly handle the inductance of all the wires and the cpaactiance between them. Something that you might well not know accurately enough!. If curse correctly, simulation can be useful. IMHO one of the frw correct ways (if not the only way) to use simulation is : 1) You have a real physical system that you do experiments on and collect real data 2) You simulate the same system under the same conditions and simulate the same experiements on that system 3) If the results agree, then it is likely (although not certain) that the simulation is an accurate description of the system and that tghe theory you used to produce the cimulation also applies to the real system But if they results don't agree then either you have experimental measurement errors, a bug in the program, or more interestingly the theory doesn't apply to the real system, perhpas there is some other effect you've neglected. In which case you need to do more investigations. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 1 15:10:09 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 21:10:09 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Replacing failed powersupplies on qbus PDP-11s In-Reply-To: <001e01c983c2$6af07f50$6400a8c0@acerd3c08b49af> from "CSquared" at Jan 31, 9 10:38:58 am Message-ID: > > The part of this that really amazes me is where it says something like "long > power supply input lines" can also cause problems or oscillation. I suppose Well, it's farily common for long (or otherwise high-inductance) power lines to cuase problems in some circumstances. That's why we use decoupling capacitors on logic boards :-) This could be a problem with a DC-DC converter or similar (in other words, if you're using one of those, make sure you decouple the input side well). But it shouldn't be a problem with mains-input SMPSUs, at least not normal ones./ In the normal small SMPSUs, the chopper drive is not synchronised ot the mains frequency [1], so there's no way of the supply knowing waht the mains input will actually be when the chopper turns on. And thus the enrgy from the mains is stored in large (and low impedance) capactiros, the chopper effecrtively runs off that. So the HF component of the mains input current whould be prtty small, and thus the adition of mains filters or input wiring shouldn't be a problem [1[ There heve been supplies using SCRs triggered at the right point in the mains cycle. They're not common, they put a lot of 'hash' back on the mains and are geenrally frowned upon. -tony From thypope at gmail.com Sun Feb 1 15:50:18 2009 From: thypope at gmail.com (Alexandru Lovin) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 23:50:18 +0200 Subject: 720RPM 3.5" FDDs? In-Reply-To: <49860E96.6070007@gmail.com> References: <4985793B.20721.76368FB2@cclist.sydex.com> <20090201121837.L45469@shell.lmi.net> <49860E96.6070007@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Feb 1, 2009 at 11:05 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote: >> >> [how many bytes in a Megabyte?] > > As many as your marketing department wants you to have. > A million. And 8 bits in a byte. Hello, I just joined cctalk. While you're on floppy drives, I'd like to ask something. Wasn't the LS-120 made by Panasonic ? And didn't they make another version, the LS-240 ? As far as I can remember, any of them are made to work on the IDE/PATA interface. Now, would it be possible to adjust it hardware so that it can be recognized as a real floppy ? This would be the solution to making it work under Win XP. Yes, it probably won't be able to record big disks, but as far as I know Panasonic provided a software program to do that, which reportedly worked like a CD burning program. That program could apparently write 32 MB on a regular disk. Assume we also have the source code of that program. From dgahling at hotmail.com Sun Feb 1 16:28:48 2009 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 17:28:48 -0500 Subject: 720RPM 3.5" FDDs? In-Reply-To: References: <4985793B.20721.76368FB2@cclist.sydex.com> <20090201121837.L45469@shell.lmi.net> <49860E96.6070007@gmail.com> Message-ID: actually it's not an even million. a megabyte is 1024*1024 bytes (1024 K), a mb is a million bytes, but an MB is 1,048,576 bytes 1K = 1024 bytes, not 1000 bytes. Dan. > Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 23:50:18 +0200 > From: thypope at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: 720RPM 3.5" FDDs? > > On Sun, Feb 1, 2009 at 11:05 PM, Jules Richardson > wrote: > > Fred Cisin wrote: > >> > >> [how many bytes in a Megabyte?] > > > > As many as your marketing department wants you to have. > > > > A million. And 8 bits in a byte. > > Hello, > > I just joined cctalk. While you're on floppy drives, I'd like to ask > something. Wasn't the LS-120 made by Panasonic ? And didn't they make > another version, the LS-240 ? > > As far as I can remember, any of them are made to work on the IDE/PATA > interface. Now, would it be possible to adjust it hardware so that it > can be recognized as a real floppy ? This would be the solution to > making it work under Win XP. > > Yes, it probably won't be able to record big disks, but as far as I > know Panasonic provided a software program to do that, which > reportedly worked like a CD burning program. That program could > apparently write 32 MB on a regular disk. Assume we also have the > source code of that program. _________________________________________________________________ How fun is this? IMing with Windows Live Messenger just got better. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/messenger.aspx From thypope at gmail.com Sun Feb 1 16:32:23 2009 From: thypope at gmail.com (Alexandru Lovin) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 00:32:23 +0200 Subject: 720RPM 3.5" FDDs? In-Reply-To: References: <4985793B.20721.76368FB2@cclist.sydex.com> <20090201121837.L45469@shell.lmi.net> <49860E96.6070007@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 12:28 AM, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > actually it's not an even million. > a megabyte is 1024*1024 bytes > (1024 K), a mb is a million bytes, but an MB is 1,048,576 bytes > 1K = 1024 bytes, not 1000 bytes. > > Dan. Which brings us back to the marketing department's decision ? :) From FJGJR1 at aol.com Sun Feb 1 17:09:40 2009 From: FJGJR1 at aol.com (FJGJR1 at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 18:09:40 EST Subject: REPLY - Re: KAYPRO 10 - Need Help Please Message-ID: Steven, Yes, it sounds like they are looking for boot software. It should be on the hard drive, but maybe it is corrupted or someone took it off. Check with "Sharkonwheels" on _www.vintage-computer.com_ (http://www.vintage-computer.com) , he is more expert in Kaypros after 1983. I am more into the 1983 versions. The Kaypro 10 came after 1983. You can post on this site and maybe someone will offer to buy them from you. They could be used just for parts of course. Note if you have anything else for them - software, accessories, cables, etc. That can help the sale, along with any other info - where did you get them, past history if known, etc.. This is probably the best overall site for such vintage computers. I post under GADFRAN. Good luck. Keep us informed on how you progress. Frank _www.kayprosts.org_ (http://www.kayprosts.org) In a message dated 2/1/2009 2:09:24 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, steven.alan.canning at verizon.net writes: I rescued two ( more like 1 3/4 ) KAYPRO 10 machines headed for euthanasia. I repaired the LVPS in the first unit and it comes up (?) but I think it is waiting for something ( like a BOOT disk ? ). They both ( machines ) have one half-height 5 1/4 floppy drive and one half-height 10 MByte hard drive. So far both of the CPU boards do exactly the same thing, after RESET it puts up the following prompt on the CRT; * KAYPRO 10 v1.9e * Anyone know what if anything it is waiting for ( I can't believe it wouldn't BOOT off of the hard drive, but I don't know any better ) ?? The 10 MB Ready light for the hard disk does come on ( for what it is worth...). Better yet, anyone want a couple ( or one ) KAYPRO 10s to screw around with and add to your collection ? They are built pretty tough ! Make an offer that will cover my Super Bowl beer fund and you're in business ! Because of their weight, probably limited to domestic USA shipping ( from Southern CA ). Best regards, Steven **************From Wall Street to Main Street and everywhere in between, stay up-to-date with the latest news. (http://aol.com?ncid=emlcntaolcom00000023) From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Feb 1 17:13:30 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 18:13:30 -0500 Subject: Replacing failed powersupplies on qbus PDP-11s In-Reply-To: <1233487930.31679.6.camel@elric> References: <1233487930.31679.6.camel@elric> Message-ID: <200902011813.30068.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 01 February 2009, Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: > Simulation == all bets are off. It's never going to tell you > anything meaningful. If this was true, many people like me wouldn't have a job. There's many scientific disciplines where simulation is much more practical than physical experimentation, to help hypothesis. The biggest example is funded by the DOE to do nuclear detonation simulations. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Feb 1 17:17:16 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 18:17:16 -0500 Subject: 720RPM 3.5" FDDs? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200902011817.16854.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 01 February 2009, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > actually it's not an even million. > a megabyte is 1024*1024 bytes > (1024 K), a mb is a million bytes, but an MB is 1,048,576 bytes > 1K = 1024 bytes, not 1000 bytes. You are wrong, at least if you follow the SI system of measurement. :) My only complaint is that they decided that MB is 10^6 not 2^20 well after common usage dictated that MB was 2^20 bytes. Also, "mb" would technically be milli-bits, ie 10^-3 bits. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 1 17:17:28 2009 From: afra at aurigae.demon.co.uk (Phill Harvey-Smith) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 23:17:28 +0000 Subject: 720RPM 3.5" FDDs? In-Reply-To: References: <4985793B.20721.76368FB2@cclist.sydex.com> <20090201121837.L45469@shell.lmi.net> <49860E96.6070007@gmail.com> Message-ID: <49862D88.20306@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Dan Gahlinger wrote: > actually it's not an even million. > a megabyte is 1024*1024 bytes > (1024 K), a mb is a million bytes, but an MB is 1,048,576 bytes > 1K = 1024 bytes, not 1000 bytes. Whilst I personally agree with the above, there are those who would argue that Kilo, Mega, Giga etc are all SI prefixes and therefore are only ever powers of 10, irrispective of the convention. Which is why terms like kibibyte, which I personally hate with a passion :) See : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilobyte Cheers. Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Feb 1 17:29:38 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 15:29:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: 720RPM 3.5" FDDs? In-Reply-To: References: <4985793B.20721.76368FB2@cclist.sydex.com> <20090201121837.L45469@shell.lmi.net> <49860E96.6070007@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090201152216.K52302@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 1 Feb 2009, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > actually it's not an even million. > a megabyte is 1024*1024 bytes > (1024 K), a mb is a million bytes, but an MB is 1,048,576 bytes > 1K = 1024 bytes, not 1000 bytes. I agree wholeheartedly with Dan about a megabyte (MB) being 2^20 bytes (1024 * 1024, 1024K, 1048576). But, we have to be careful about the abbreviations. Some would insist that "mb" would have to be "milli-bit"! Those who "have to" have 1000 * 1000 as their unit, would like us to us "Mebi-Byte" as the name for 1048576. And of course, we need a name for the Unscrupulous IBM Marketing unit. ("UIMU"?) I do not accept that there is ANY possible rationale that would justify 1000 * 1024 as being a valid unit of measure. Particularly when the same UNSCRUPULOUS MARKETING units use 1024 * 1024 for RAM. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From arcarlini at iee.org Sun Feb 1 17:32:51 2009 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 23:32:51 -0000 Subject: 720RPM 3.5" FDDs? In-Reply-To: <200902011817.16854.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <71ADFE6B4E764AA4AB705615189178E6@uatempname> cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > My only complaint is that they decided that MB is 10^6 not 2^20 well > after common usage dictated that MB was 2^20 bytes. Why make an exception for the computer industry? We'll be back to rods and slugs before you know it? kilo was 10^3 and mega 10^6 long before computer memory got in on the act. You'll notice the networking world didn't decide to rewrite the rules. Antonio From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 1 17:45:35 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 15:45:35 -0800 Subject: 720RPM 3.5" FDDs? In-Reply-To: <71ADFE6B4E764AA4AB705615189178E6@uatempname> References: <200902011817.16854.pat@computer-refuge.org>, <71ADFE6B4E764AA4AB705615189178E6@uatempname> Message-ID: <4985C39F.14778.77594218@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Feb 2009 at 23:32, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > Why make an exception for the computer industry? We'll be back to > rods and slugs before you know it? Doesn't NASA/DOD still use slugs as their mass unit? --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 1 17:51:32 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 15:51:32 -0800 Subject: 720RPM 3.5" FDDs? In-Reply-To: References: , <49860E96.6070007@gmail.com>, Message-ID: <4985C504.23438.775EB8B7@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Feb 2009 at 23:50, Alexandru Lovin wrote: > I just joined cctalk. While you're on floppy drives, I'd like to ask > something. Wasn't the LS-120 made by Panasonic ? And didn't they make > another version, the LS-240 ? > > As far as I can remember, any of them are made to work on the IDE/PATA > interface. Now, would it be possible to adjust it hardware so that it > can be recognized as a real floppy ? This would be the solution to > making it work under Win XP. The problem appears to be with XP, not with the Matsushita-made LS- 120 IDE drives. (They also were produced for SCSI). Mine worked just fine in Win2K, but XP hangs (with no hardware changes) during the boot process. The problem appears to be related to the chipset and drivers of the host; some have reported success in getting the LS120 to work on XP, but by no means is this common. And no one's going to take the time to find out what's wrong with what's considered to be an obsolete device. One nice aspect of the LS120 is that it would also read (but not format) 1.23MB "DOS-V" Japanese-format floppies. Most USB 3.5" drives can also do this. Cheers, Chuck From dgahling at hotmail.com Sun Feb 1 17:53:55 2009 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 18:53:55 -0500 Subject: 720RPM 3.5" FDDs? In-Reply-To: <20090201152216.K52302@shell.lmi.net> References: <4985793B.20721.76368FB2@cclist.sydex.com> <20090201121837.L45469@shell.lmi.net> <49860E96.6070007@gmail.com> <20090201152216.K52302@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: alright, who the hell is the moron that changed kilobyte to kibibyte and megabyte to mebibyte? i mean, come on people, we had a good system for like 2 decades, leave it alone! oh, IEC, should have known.... ugh. Dan. > Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 15:29:38 -0800 > From: cisin at xenosoft.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: 720RPM 3.5" FDDs? > > On Sun, 1 Feb 2009, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > actually it's not an even million. > > a megabyte is 1024*1024 bytes > > (1024 K), a mb is a million bytes, but an MB is 1,048,576 bytes > > 1K = 1024 bytes, not 1000 bytes. > > I agree wholeheartedly with Dan about a megabyte (MB) being 2^20 bytes > (1024 * 1024, 1024K, 1048576). > > > But, we have to be careful about the abbreviations. > Some would insist that "mb" would have to be "milli-bit"! > > > Those who "have to" have 1000 * 1000 as their unit, would like us to us > "Mebi-Byte" as the name for 1048576. > > > And of course, we need a name for the Unscrupulous IBM Marketing unit. > ("UIMU"?) > I do not accept that there is ANY possible rationale that would justify > 1000 * 1024 as being a valid unit of measure. Particularly when the same > UNSCRUPULOUS MARKETING units use 1024 * 1024 for RAM. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com _________________________________________________________________ So many new options, so little time. Windows Live Messenger. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/messenger.aspx From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun Feb 1 18:09:55 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 00:09:55 +0000 Subject: Replacing failed powersupplies on qbus PDP-11s In-Reply-To: <200902011813.30068.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <1233487930.31679.6.camel@elric> <200902011813.30068.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <1233533395.1958.31.camel@elric> On Sun, 2009-02-01 at 18:13 -0500, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Sunday 01 February 2009, Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: > > Simulation == all bets are off. It's never going to tell you > > anything meaningful. > > If this was true, many people like me wouldn't have a job. > > There's many scientific disciplines where simulation is much more > practical than physical experimentation, to help hypothesis. > > The biggest example is funded by the DOE to do nuclear detonation > simulations. Yes, because it's hard to test nuclear explosions on your bench - twice, anyway. I've lost count of the number of people I've spoken to in ##electronics and on forums who have got hopelessly lost and confused by trying to simulate simple electronic circuits. Just build the damn thing and test it, you'll learn far more! But no, they don't want to do that because apparently "it's a waste of time and money". Gordon From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 1 18:27:50 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 16:27:50 -0800 Subject: Replacing failed powersupplies on qbus PDP-11s In-Reply-To: <1233533395.1958.31.camel@elric> References: , <200902011813.30068.pat@computer-refuge.org>, <1233533395.1958.31.camel@elric> Message-ID: <4985CD86.24356.777FC019@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Feb 2009 at 0:09, Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: > I've lost count of the number of people I've spoken to in ##electronics > and on forums who have got hopelessly lost and confused by trying to > simulate simple electronic circuits. Just build the damn thing and test > it, you'll learn far more! But no, they don't want to do that because > apparently "it's a waste of time and money". Simulation is an essential part of working with programmable (i.e. SystemC, Verilog or VHDL) devices. Being able to write a good simulation testbench is probably just as valuable as being able to write the original programming for the device. Eventually, you have to burn your design into the d*mned thing and do some real-world testing, but simulation today is just as important as knowing how to use a scope or logic analyzer. Cheers, Chuck From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sun Feb 1 19:16:39 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 17:16:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Looking for used EPROM chips, 2, 4 and 8 megabit Message-ID: <586853.33903.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I've been working on some projects lately that require larger EPROM chips than the ones I have scavenged over the years. I am primarily looking for 8 megabit (27c080) chips, but I also need 4's and 2's as well. Anyone have some extra 'bugs' they would part with? Thanks! -Ian From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Sun Feb 1 20:24:18 2009 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 18:24:18 -0800 Subject: REPLY - Re: KAYPRO 10 - Need Help Please References: Message-ID: <000501c984dd$59f447b0$0201a8c0@hal9000> Thank you Frank ! Best regards, Steven > Steven, > > Yes, it sounds like they are looking for boot software. It should be on the > hard drive, but maybe it is corrupted or someone took it off. > > Check with "Sharkonwheels" on _www.vintage-computer.com_ > (http://www.vintage-computer.com) , he is more expert in Kaypros after 1983. I am more into the > 1983 versions. The Kaypro 10 came after 1983. > > You can post on this site and maybe someone will offer to buy them from you. > They could be used just for parts of course. Note if you have anything > else for them - software, accessories, cables, etc. That can help the sale, > along with any other info - where did you get them, past history if known, etc.. > > This is probably the best overall site for such vintage computers. I post > under GADFRAN. > > Good luck. > > Keep us informed on how you progress. > > Frank > _www.kayprosts.org_ (http://www.kayprosts.org) > > > In a message dated 2/1/2009 2:09:24 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, > steven.alan.canning at verizon.net writes: > > I rescued two ( more like 1 3/4 ) KAYPRO 10 machines headed for euthanasia. > I repaired the LVPS in the first unit and it comes up (?) but I think it is > waiting for something ( like a BOOT disk ? ). They both ( machines ) have > one half-height 5 1/4 floppy drive and one half-height 10 MByte hard drive. > So far both of the CPU boards do exactly the same thing, after RESET it puts > up the following prompt on the CRT; > * KAYPRO 10 v1.9e * > Anyone know what if anything it is waiting for ( I can't believe it wouldn't > BOOT off of the hard drive, but I don't know any better ) ?? The 10 MB Ready > light for the hard disk does come on ( for what it is worth...). > Better yet, anyone want a couple ( or one ) KAYPRO 10s to screw around with > and add to your collection ? They are built pretty tough ! Make an offer > that will cover my Super Bowl beer fund and you're in business ! Because of > their weight, probably limited to domestic USA shipping ( from Southern > CA ). > > Best regards, Steven From Knglng at aol.com Sun Feb 1 07:40:24 2009 From: Knglng at aol.com (Knglng at aol.com) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 08:40:24 EST Subject: LCD projection panel-Sharp QA 50 Message-ID: LCD projection panel-Sharp QA 50 I HAVE ONE WITH A REMOTE, IF YOU WANT IT EMAIL ME OR CALL ME @ 203 530 6896 I WILL ONLY SELL THE WHOLE THING, NOT JUST THE REMOTE **************Great Deals on Dell Laptops. Starting at $499. (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1217883258x1201191827/aol?redir=http://www.dell.com/co ntent/products/features.aspx/laptops_great_deals?c=us%26cs=19%26l=en%26s=d hs%26~ck=anavml) From philip at axeside.co.uk Sun Feb 1 09:34:57 2009 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 15:34:57 +0000 Subject: Replacing failed powersupplies on qbus PDP-11s In-Reply-To: <1233487930.31679.6.camel@elric> References: <1233487930.31679.6.camel@elric> Message-ID: <4985C121.6000909@axeside.co.uk> Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: > Simulation == all bets are off. It's never going to tell you anything > meaningful. That's a bit of a sweeping statement! I agree badly done simulation is worse than useless, but I have to use simulation all the time in my job (power station planning). Some of the things I frequently have to tell both trainees and clients are worth mentioning here, though: 1. The model is not the system. "The model predicts it" is not an explanation for anything. Any prediction of the model has to represent a physical process on the system you are studying, and you need to understand what that process is and why it happens [1]. (Or, for that matter, why it doesn't behave as the model predicts) 2. No one model is good for everything. You need different models for different studies. Before you use a model, it is important to understand what it is for, and what it can do. This often involves quite an in-depth look at how the simulation software actually uses the data. [2] 3. You can't make a model more accurate by throwing a bigger computer at it. (So many clients don't appreciate this!) A model stands or falls by the data that goes in it. It doesn't matter how sophisticated the simulation software, if you haven't got good data you can't do an accurate model. GIGO. Take those three things into account, and simulation is a useful tool. But it's no more than a tool, and some of the best simulations are very simple models that run on that ubiquitous platform, the human brain... Philip. [1] I remember long arguments with the suppliers of some simulation software on this subject. They insisted that a second harmonic oscillation should die away so quickly they didn't need to model it. I maintained that it was a result of dc flowing in the stator of an ac generator (the Hammond Organ effect), and should die away no faster than the dc that caused it. [2] Which is why the engineer at the network company (I'll not name them) couldn't reproduce my results. She was trying to cheat by putting her calculated time values of impedance in the simulation software's initial value, and didn't realise what else it would affect. To give her the credit that's her due, she realised what was wrong as soon as I pointed out how the software calculated one of the impedances. But I shouldn't have had to - and it was just luck we both had the same software... From chrise at pobox.com Sun Feb 1 10:11:35 2009 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 10:11:35 -0600 Subject: speaking of 3.5" floppies, is 720K R.I.P.? Message-ID: <20090201161135.GT26511@n0jcf.net> I don't have an answer for the other gentleman's query on 720RPM floppies but I recently discovered that new 3.5" drives appear to no longer support 720K media. I purchased a number of Samsung drives for a project where I am converting a system with 5.25" drives to use 3.5" and I found that these drives have left out the media density sense switch all together! They no longer have any way to detect the lower density, 250kbps media and run at 500Kbps no matter what is installed. I needed the 300 rpm, 250Kbps capability to be compatible with the old 5.25" stuff. What's particularly nasty is that I chose these drives, Samsung SFD-321B, because I had a recent datasheet that clearly showed they supported this mode-- until of course they arrived and the switch/sensor is not even installed! Is this true of all 3.5" drives now? This might explain why 720K 3.5" drives are selling for $285 on eBay :-( I'd sure like to find a way to force the drive into 250Kbps mode-- I can't believe the chips don't still support it-- I just need a way to figure out where the sensor is supposed to connect and hard wire it to 720K mode. Any ideas on how to do that? Chris From csquared3 at tx.rr.com Sun Feb 1 15:53:06 2009 From: csquared3 at tx.rr.com (CSquared) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 15:53:06 -0600 Subject: Software preservation (Was: Seeking reverse-engineers - Apple II VisiCalc) References: <200901302257.n0UMv4ZT089712@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <009501c984b7$7739d450$6400a8c0@acerd3c08b49af> On Fri, 30 Jan 2009 at 09:49:34 Chuck Guzis said > It surprised me that the micro types took so long to figure basic > things like SCCS and regression testing out. I think I can partly explain that. For one thing, though we may all be brilliant ;) we are not necessarily all that wise! Wisdom hopefully accumulates with experience, and perhaps with the agony of recreating something that was lost that should have been carefully preserved - especially things like batch files, make files and little utilities written for example because the available software tools could not produce deliverable binaries in the desired form. More seriously, most of the places I have worked for the past 45 years have been what I call "Mom and Pop" operations with all the problems that produces, including tight budgets and razor-thin resources. BTW, just because it is a fair size company does not prevent it from being run in "Mom and Pop" mode. The thin resources in my experience usually result in a very fast transition to the next project once the current one is done, which does not leave a lot of time for reflection about what all should be preserved. Even the quite large company for whom I currently work, though sadly only until next Friday, :( has run our soon-to-be-dissolved group on razor-thin resources IMHO. The other common problem I have seen is that usually no one in the chain above my immediate manager has the vaguest idea as to the importance of the work I have just completed. During some unfortunate periods, even he had no clue! I've been quite pleased for about the past 14 years to have had the use of MKS and more recently VSS to provide an archive and history information on the file servers. Allegedly these are backed up frequently off-site as well, on tape cartridges I believe, though I have never had an occasion to test that theory. At one time the IT guy would whine about how much space I was taking up on the server and I would have to give him a list of folders that could be written to CD's to make space on the file server. In at least one case, I recall one of those was partly unreadable when I tried to access it only maybe a year after it was burned. It has now been probably 10 years - anyone want to bet any of them are still readable? Since they are sitting in my bookcase at work, anyone care to guess what will become of them once I leave next Friday? The good thing is that they are all very old versions and it probably does not matter all that much. No longer needing to keep card/mag-tape/floppy backups has indeed been pleasant. (I sort of hate to admit I once even had some punched paper tape backups.) The history information the source control software provides is invaluable as well, even though I do keep written notes regarding software changes as they are made. I've been a bit amazed at how often I've found myself looking in the MKS and VSS archives to search for the answer to a question like "Exactly when was _this_ particular tiny change made". These are usually changes that seemed almost inconsequential at the time, but turned out much later to have been rather important. Later, Charlie Carothers From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Feb 1 21:46:51 2009 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 22:46:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: 720RPM 3.5" FDDs? In-Reply-To: <49862D88.20306@aurigae.demon.co.uk> References: <4985793B.20721.76368FB2@cclist.sydex.com> <20090201121837.L45469@shell.lmi.net> <49860E96.6070007@gmail.com> <49862D88.20306@aurigae.demon.co.uk> Message-ID: <200902020401.XAA09417@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Whilst I personally agree with the above, there are those who would > argue that Kilo, Mega, Giga etc are all SI prefixes and therefore are > only ever powers of 10, irrispective of the convention. ..._if_ you use the SI meanings for them. "Megaphone" does not mean "one million phones", to pick a really simple example. The SI does not get to mandate how people use language. The computer world does not use the SI prefixes with the SI meanings when, to quote the Jargon File, they are "used with bytes or other things that naturally come in powers of 2". Well, except for disk makers. As far as I can tell, the only people in the computer world that use the SI meanings for those prefixes for bytes are disk makers' marketing departments, and in recent years they've taken to adding footnotes saying things which I generally gloss as "yes, we know we're being misleading, we're doing it deliberately". I thought being deliberately misleading, even if technically justifiable on some ground or other, when selling things was normally called "fraud" (or "misleading advertising" at the very least), but apparently disk makers get an exemption. I've occasionally wished I ran a RAM maker, so upon getting an order from, say, Fujitsu, for, say, 1G sticks, I could send them parts with exactly 1000000000 working bytes in them.... > Which is why terms like kibibyte, which I personally hate with a > passion :) Hm? What's wrong with it? (Meaning a very short James Parry quote, of course.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Feb 1 22:43:17 2009 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 23:43:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: Replacing failed powersupplies on qbus PDP-11s In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200902020454.XAA09560@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > In the normal small SMPSUs, the chopper drive is not synchronised ot > the mains frequency [1], so there's no way of the supply knowing waht > the mains input will actually be when the chopper turns on. Yes...but (assuming the chopper frequency is high compared to the mains frequency) there will be a period near the top of the mains AC cycle when there is a chopper-frequency component to the draw. If the filter caps are decently large, it will be tiny, but it will be present - well, possibly excepting the case where the filter caps are large enough that the time current is drawn for is less than one chopper cycle wide, in which case I'm not sure how fair it is to say that. In the presence of resonance it doesn't take much, though; the saving grace is probably that the resonance has to be both very close to exact and very low loss for the small boost each peak to be enough to produce an oscillation that grows in the long term - and neither of those is likely to be true. > [1[ There heve been supplies using SCRs triggered at the right point > in the mains cycle. They're not common, Not in computers, maybe. But - well, incandescent lamp dimmers. Variable-speed power hand drills. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Feb 1 22:55:29 2009 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 23:55:29 -0500 (EST) Subject: Seeking reverse-engineers - Apple II VisiCalc In-Reply-To: <4985CF79.4010201@gmail.com> References: <200901281800.n0SI0AUu052577@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4980AB42.6010003@media.mit.edu> <6.2.3.4.2.20090129085638.05e74420@mail.threedee.com> <4981C9F6.5020100@gmail.com> <4981D7B1.9050804@iais.fraunhofer.de> <49850692.3060800@oldskool.org> <4985CF79.4010201@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200902020502.AAA11389@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Lots of us already back up across a LAN to a machine (regardless of > the storage technology behind the scenes), so it's not a big leap to > do that to some off-site server; it's just that the upstream data > rates from the home aren't really *quite* there yet. I doubt that, actually; I back up live to a big backup disk at home, and I have that disk backed up live over my DSL line. And mine is about as slow as consumer DSL gets; we switched me from RADSL to MVL because it performs better on almost-too-long copper, and even that tops out at about 0.4Mbps (RADSL was dropping out entirely at times and not syncing above about 512kbps at all). Yet I back up live over that, and I find that it keeps up. Perhaps my write rate is lower than many, but my DSL is slower than many, too; I suspect that what's actually lacking is the software for it in a form easy enough to drop in that the masses can use it. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 2 01:56:43 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 01 Feb 2009 23:56:43 -0800 Subject: speaking of 3.5" floppies, is 720K R.I.P.? In-Reply-To: <20090201161135.GT26511@n0jcf.net> References: <20090201161135.GT26511@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <498636BB.15917.791AE9C9@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Feb 2009 at 10:11, Chris Elmquist wrote: > What's particularly nasty is that I chose these drives, Samsung SFD-321B, > because I had a recent datasheet that clearly showed they supported > this mode-- until of course they arrived and the switch/sensor is not > even installed! Chris, the OEM manual for the SFD-321B is online at: www.techtravels.org/amiga/SAMSUNG-SFD321B-070103.pdf I note that they do use pin 2 as a density select pin and the OPA and OPB PCB jumpers to determine the operating mode. You might want to play with this a bit to see if you can coax it into operating in 2D mode. Whatever, please report back because I note that these drives are (1) cheap and (2) have a provision to supply a READY signal instead of DISK CHANGE. That could come in useful. Cheers, Chuck From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon Feb 2 02:35:41 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 08:35:41 +0000 Subject: Replacing failed powersupplies on qbus PDP-11s In-Reply-To: <200902020454.XAA09560@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <200902020454.XAA09560@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <1233563741.1958.37.camel@elric> On Sun, 2009-02-01 at 23:43 -0500, der Mouse wrote: > > [1[ There heve been supplies using SCRs triggered at the right point > > in the mains cycle. They're not common, > > Not in computers, maybe. But - well, incandescent lamp dimmers. > Variable-speed power hand drills. Most 1970s colour TVs... Gordon From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon Feb 2 03:05:52 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 09:05:52 +0000 Subject: Replacing failed powersupplies on qbus PDP-11s In-Reply-To: <4985CD86.24356.777FC019@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <200902011813.30068.pat@computer-refuge.org> , <1233533395.1958.31.camel@elric> <4985CD86.24356.777FC019@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1233565552.1958.42.camel@elric> On Sun, 2009-02-01 at 16:27 -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 2 Feb 2009 at 0:09, Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: > > > I've lost count of the number of people I've spoken to in ##electronics > > and on forums who have got hopelessly lost and confused by trying to > > simulate simple electronic circuits. Just build the damn thing and test > > it, you'll learn far more! But no, they don't want to do that because > > apparently "it's a waste of time and money". > > Simulation is an essential part of working with programmable (i.e. > SystemC, Verilog or VHDL) devices. Being able to write a good > simulation testbench is probably just as valuable as being able to > write the original programming for the device. Again, that's all very well if you're doing something sufficiently complex and well-defined. If you are investigating the effect of putting what is basically a tuned circuit across the supply to a non-linear load, where a) it's simple enough to build, and b) it's not clearly defined enough to model, then you're far better just warming up the soldering iron and breaking out the 'scope. Likewise, a lot of people seem to be taught that the only way to investigate a circuit's behaviour is to simulate it. When someone shows me a simulator that can accurately reproduce the behaviour of a simple twin-T filter under all possible conditions then I'll start to warm to them. A circuit that doesn't work properly doesn't sit there Just Plain Doing Nothing, or producing an odd error message. Gordon From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Mon Feb 2 03:40:02 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 01:40:02 -0800 Subject: Any spare Corvus Concept hardware out there? Message-ID: <4986BF72.8030502@mail.msu.edu> I assume the answer to the subject line is "no," but I figured I'd ask just in case one of you has a stack of this stuff lying around somewhere :). Picked up a Corvus Concept -- just the main CPU unit, no monitor, no keyboard, no drives. It appears to work (it beeps when I turn it on!) but of course lacking any other hardware it's a rather bulky doorstop. I'd like to get it running, it's a cool 68k-based machine with a bit-mapped display and Apple II (!!) compatible expansion slots. (Are there any other machines out there that used the Apple II bus for expansion? Aside from Apple II-family machines and clones, of course...) I suppose given enough time I could build a compatible monitor, hack together a keyboard interface, and get it booting over OmniNet but somehow having the original hardware would be nice too... Thanks, Josh From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Feb 2 03:50:29 2009 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 10:50:29 +0100 (CET) Subject: 720RPM 3.5" FDDs? In-Reply-To: <4985793B.20721.76368FB2@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4985793B.20721.76368FB2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 1 Feb 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I've never seen one, but it's logical to suppose that a double-speed > drive that handles 1.3MB media has been made. I'd expect to find it > in Japan moreso than the West, however, since the Japanese used to be > pretty much wedded to the NEC 9801 series archtecture that used 360 > RPM drives for everything. Well, that probably makes sense. It seems that there are quite a few drives which may be used to replace old 600RPM drives, but I haven't tried it yet. Christian From asholz at topinform.de Mon Feb 2 05:34:24 2009 From: asholz at topinform.de (Andreas Holz) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 12:34:24 +0100 Subject: Modules for LINC-8 In-Reply-To: References: <4985793B.20721.76368FB2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4986DA40.9060007@topinform.de> Hallo all, I do need your help for the purpose of the restoration of a LINC-8, Serial# 4. This systems is not my own property but is belonging to the Museum of the University of Erlangen-Nuremberg, Bavaria. The system in question is missing a lot of Flip-Chip boards and I would liket o beg you to have a look at your shelves, if there are some board which you can spend for this task. The boards in question are as follows: B684 R001 R002 R107 R111 R122 R123 R203 R205 R210 R211 R220 R302 R303 R450 R602 R650 S107 S111 S181 S205 S602 S603 W501 W640 Andreas From Mark.Brennan at ie.fujitsu.com Mon Feb 2 06:48:05 2009 From: Mark.Brennan at ie.fujitsu.com (Brennan Mark) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 12:48:05 -0000 Subject: ebay: 2 vintage cards for apollo workstation In-Reply-To: References: <49837044.60103@gmail.com> Message-ID: <299EB6FC242FCF47AA4118ED9365BF94019676AF@EUROPEV004.europe.fs.fujitsu.com> Hi All As time passes it becomes more difficult to find any thing on Apollo DN systems I have posted what I have come across over the last few years, but I have had no success finding DN10000 information brochure/datasheet etc but I will keep trying any thing I come across will be posted on www.1000bit.com under the brochure heading Regards mark ________________________________________________________________________ ________________ Mark Brennan, System Engineer, Fujitsu Services, Airside Business Park, Swords, County Dublin, Ireland Mobile: +353-87-222-2326 Telephone: +353-1-813 6000 Facsimile: +353-1-813 6600 email: mark.brennan at ie.fujitsu.com Web: ie.fujitsu.com This e-mail is only for the use of its intended recipient. Its contents are subject to a duty of confidence and may be privileged. Fujitsu Services does not guarantee that this e-mail has not been intercepted and amended or that it is virus-free. -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paxton Hoag Sent: 31 January 2009 09:44 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: ebay: 2 vintage cards for apollo workstation >> I guess people aren't really collecting Apollo workstation stuff. A >> shame, really. > > I've never seen a genuine early Apollo (2xx or 3xx). There still seem to be > 3x00 and 4x00-series machines around, although they're by no means common. > They seem to be of that class of machine where they're still out there > lurking, but it's difficult to get in touch with any of the owners who still > have one. > > I've got a hankering after one of the "last of the line" 4xx-series (i.e. > the last genuine Apollos before they became 7xx PA-RISC HP-UX boxes) as > they're stylish vintage systems, but still fast enough to feel "useful". > Fantastic build quality, too. Sadly they seem far rarer than the 3xxx/4xxx > boxes (and IME 2/3 of them have long since lost their Domain keyboard) > > I've got archives of Domain OS 10.2, which I'm keeping for a rainy day when > I eventually do find a 4xx... (of course Domain comes into its own when you > have multiple systems, so I'd really like several 4xx systems ;) > > And I know I've mentioned before that I'd love a DN10k, but there's not > exactly much chance of *that* happening! (I'd love to know how many DN10k's > they sold... not many, I suspect) I saw a 660 in Portland Oregon about 5 years ago at a scrappers. No Kbd or monitor. I have a DN 570 in storage with KBD and monitor. About 17 years ago I had 4 320s and 330s. I wish I had kept one. I really liked playing with it. I sold my last 330 in a farmers auction ourside of Canby Oregon in 1995 or so. It may still be in some farmers barn. There used to be several DN10,000s in the Portland area but that was about 10 years ago, Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Feb 2 07:25:16 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 08:25:16 -0500 Subject: 720RPM 3.5" FDDs? In-Reply-To: <200902020401.XAA09417@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <49862D88.20306@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <200902020401.XAA09417@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <200902020825.16632.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 01 February 2009, der Mouse wrote: > Well, except for disk makers. As far as I can tell, the only people > in the computer world that use the SI meanings for those prefixes for > bytes are disk makers' marketing departments, As someone else has noted, networking people have (as far as I can tell) always taken Mbps and Kbps to mean 10^6 and 10^3, respectively, bits per second. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Feb 2 08:03:33 2009 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 08:03:33 -0600 Subject: Atomic bomb replica maker in Waukesha, WI Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20090202080207.074750e0@mail.threedee.com> Not computer-related, but certainly geeky, research and reconstruction: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/12/15/081215fa_fact_samuels?printable=true - John From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Feb 2 09:13:47 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 07:13:47 -0800 Subject: speaking of 3.5" floppies, is 720K R.I.P.? In-Reply-To: <498636BB.15917.791AE9C9@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20090201161135.GT26511@n0jcf.net> <498636BB.15917.791AE9C9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > From: cclist at sydex.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Sun, 1 Feb 2009 23:56:43 -0800 > Subject: Re: speaking of 3.5" floppies, is 720K R.I.P.? > > On 1 Feb 2009 at 10:11, Chris Elmquist wrote: > >> What's particularly nasty is that I chose these drives, Samsung SFD-321B, >> because I had a recent datasheet that clearly showed they supported >> this mode-- until of course they arrived and the switch/sensor is not >> even installed! > > Chris, the OEM manual for the SFD-321B is online at: > > www.techtravels.org/amiga/SAMSUNG-SFD321B-070103.pdf > > I note that they do use pin 2 as a density select pin and the OPA and > OPB PCB jumpers to determine the operating mode. You might want to > play with this a bit to see if you can coax it into operating in 2D > mode. > > Whatever, please report back because I note that these drives are (1) > cheap and (2) have a provision to supply a READY signal instead of > DISK CHANGE. That could come in useful. > > Cheers, > Chuck > Hi I'd given up on finding ones with the /READY signal. I needed one to add double sided to my Canon Cat. It had a Canon with a weird 20 pin cable that I just recently figured out the wiring. I made a circuit with three ttl chips to recreate the /READY that works well enough. I had to make a cable translator anyway so I had a piece of proto board to add the chips on. I'd found a nice source of cheap 3.5 drives with the 720K switch at Weirdstuff here in Sunnyvale. They're mostly Teac FD235HF drives but I like the Teac drives anyway. The price is right and all the drives I've bought work fine( $5 ). They're pulls but I don't let that bother me. The circuit is simple enough that one could use a registered PLA but one still needs the drive current of a 7438. Maybe doubling or tripling a few outputs would be enough as it is only the one signal needed for the /READY. I also needed to recreate the selects and motor signals from a single select and motor enable. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live? Hotmail??more than just e-mail. http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_howitworks_012009 From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Feb 2 09:42:20 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 09:42:20 -0600 Subject: Seeking reverse-engineers - Apple II VisiCalc In-Reply-To: <200902020502.AAA11389@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <200901281800.n0SI0AUu052577@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4980AB42.6010003@media.mit.edu> <6.2.3.4.2.20090129085638.05e74420@mail.threedee.com> <4981C9F6.5020100@gmail.com> <4981D7B1.9050804@iais.fraunhofer.de> <49850692.3060800@oldskool.org> <4985CF79.4010201@gmail.com> <200902020502.AAA11389@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4987145C.6070604@gmail.com> der Mouse wrote: >> Lots of us already back up across a LAN to a machine (regardless of >> the storage technology behind the scenes), so it's not a big leap to >> do that to some off-site server; it's just that the upstream data >> rates from the home aren't really *quite* there yet. > > I doubt that, actually; I back up live to a big backup disk at home, > and I have that disk backed up live over my DSL line. And mine is > about as slow as consumer DSL gets; we switched me from RADSL to MVL > because it performs better on almost-too-long copper, and even that > tops out at about 0.4Mbps (RADSL was dropping out entirely at times and > not syncing above about 512kbps at all). Are you just sending modified data each time? I suspect that isn't actually too bad - my "too slow" comment was more a reflection on how awful sending the initial xGB of data would be, and that'd put a lot of people off. (hmm, service where you could mail in a hard disk with the initial data set on, maybe? :-) > I > suspect that what's actually lacking is the software for it in a form > easy enough to drop in that the masses can use it. It'd be kind of fun to cook something up. The majority of home users probably just have multiple GB of music and images which don't ever really change anyway (and any protocol could even include stuff like "this file was moved" just to speed that particular case up a bit). But yeah, "drop in" is a bit difficult, at least if you want to support Windows/OSX/Linux/*BSD... cheers J. From dave09 at dunfield.com Mon Feb 2 09:55:54 2009 From: dave09 at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 10:55:54 -0500 Subject: DRAM Imager ( was: EPROM erase times and lifespan ) In-Reply-To: <002c01c9840d$2bf5f370$0201a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <3E6460674306@dunfield.com> > Dave, > > The Cyclops you mentioned below ( from 1975 ) used a MOSTEK 4008 with an > Optical window. There is a guy still selling them for a " mere " $35 if you > are so inclined. > > You cannot just use a standard 64K DRAM chip for an imager because the cells > are not necessarily contiguous ( because of yield problems there is > redundancy and sections are added or subtracted to yield a usable device ). As noted in the quote from the IS32 data sheet, it states that the sensor is based on the Micron's standard DRAM - however addition of a treshold adjustment suggests it's not exactly the same. >> I have the datasheet for the IS32 scanned as well, which says "Improved cost >> standards for binary image sensing (less than $.0003 / element) are delivered >> through Micron's MT4264 64K dynamic RAM memory chip as the sensing device. >> The OpticRAM(tm) image sensor is differentiated by packaging with a glass lid >> (vs the opaque lid used in memory chips) and connection of the normally unused >> pin 1 for optical threshold reference adjustment". > They're also usually built into at least two 32K sections. The data sheet also says: "Dual 128 x 256 element arrays" "32768 light sensing elements per array" "Each of the two array on the chip contains 32,768 sensors arranged in 128 rows by 256 columns of sensors. Thpical applications will utilize only one of the arrays since the arrays are separated by an optical "dead zone" 120 microns wide." Dave -- dave09 (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Feb 2 09:56:27 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 09:56:27 -0600 Subject: Software preservation (Was: Seeking reverse-engineers - Apple II VisiCalc) In-Reply-To: <009501c984b7$7739d450$6400a8c0@acerd3c08b49af> References: <200901302257.n0UMv4ZT089712@dewey.classiccmp.org> <009501c984b7$7739d450$6400a8c0@acerd3c08b49af> Message-ID: <498717AB.4040102@gmail.com> CSquared wrote: > On Fri, 30 Jan 2009 at 09:49:34 Chuck Guzis said > >> It surprised me that the micro types took so long to figure basic >> things like SCCS and regression testing out. > > I think I can partly explain that. For one thing, though we may all be > brilliant ;) we are not necessarily all that wise! Very true. I was talking to a chap recently who worked for a company who made fileservers back in the day (i.e. storage space, front-end with a network interface, and the comms protocol for interacting with the server) and who has a couple of their development systems available. He casually mentioned the existence of the hand-written notebook which formed the core of their source control system... :-) It'll be a while before I get to flick through it, unfortunately... > I've been quite pleased for about the past 14 years to have had the use of > MKS and more recently VSS to provide an archive and history information on > the file servers. Yes, been there myself. And for ISO9001-accredited places where you spend 10% of the time doing real work, and 90% of the time filling out the associated paperwork and conducting reviews on other peoples' stuff. That I really don't miss :-) Oh, and I remember on more than one occasion both MKS ("integrity" indeed) and VSS completely disappearing up their own backsides and requiring a complete restore from backup - so source control systems aren't infallible. My problem is that I've ended up with no end of personal backups over the years, and knowing which ones can be ditched and which ones might still be useful can be a nightmare. e.g. when I upgrade a hard disk, I'll typically keep the contents of the old one "just in case" - net result, 47 hard drives of various sizes, all containing various snapshots of data. Bah! cheers Jules From blkline at attglobal.net Mon Feb 2 10:39:37 2009 From: blkline at attglobal.net (Barry L. Kline) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 11:39:37 -0500 Subject: Atomic bomb replica maker in Waukesha, WI In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20090202080207.074750e0@mail.threedee.com> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20090202080207.074750e0@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: <498721C9.9050303@attglobal.net> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 John Foust wrote: > Not computer-related, but certainly geeky, research and reconstruction: > > http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/12/15/081215fa_fact_samuels?printable=true > Thanks for posting that. Great article and I just placed my order for the book. Barry -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFJhyHICFu3bIiwtTARAl8OAKCh0vYeUtOev8vJIICuzquL/dD6nQCgm987 4nWCzUvSrpVodneANuuvqUo= =tCF6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Feb 2 12:57:57 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 13:57:57 -0500 Subject: Stack Depth requirements for CP/M 2.2 CBIOS In-Reply-To: <0KEC008MAHPOV2R8@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0KEC008MAHPOV2R8@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200902021357.57747.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 31 January 2009 11:56:56 am Allison wrote: > >Subject: Stack Depth requirements for CP/M 2.2 CBIOS > > From: "ROBO5.8" > > Date: Fri, 30 Jan 2009 19:08:49 -0500 > > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only'" > > > > > >Hello, > > > >I have rewritten my old systems CP/M 2.2 CBIOS to add an IDE Drive. > > > >I've run into a problem that has me stumped. Everything works as long as > > I don't try and copy or assemble a large Assembly file (>80KB). > > > >I will be going along fine and then out of nowhere I will see CP/M request > >access to Drive "T". My debug info says SELDSK is requesting Drive > > 0FF00h. > > Ok this is easy. CP/M 2.x (2.2 nominal) can only address 16 logical drives > so that's limitation one. Each drive is limited to 8Mb > (65525sectors*128bytes). > > > If you use one of the CP/M like imperoved work a likes this is less an > issue and logical drives can be much larger (up to 1gb). I thought I'd remembered CP/M 3 going up to 32MB (but I could be wrong about that), which ones go further? I've not ever heard of any going up to 1G before. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Feb 2 12:53:08 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 13:53:08 -0500 Subject: KAYPRO 10 - Need Help Please In-Reply-To: <001601c9843c$b163c620$0201a8c0@hal9000> References: <0d21dde7c929acf93c1249e8882e2b51@bellsouth.net> <1B65B7A9-22A8-4300-B573-73FF9DAE1FF5@neurotica.com> <001601c9843c$b163c620$0201a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <200902021353.08317.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 01 February 2009 02:14:15 am Scanning wrote: > I rescued two ( more like 1 3/4 ) KAYPRO 10 machines headed for euthanasia. > I repaired the LVPS in the first unit and it comes up (?) In other words you get some stuff on the screen? That was a real common problem with those, and it was typically the soldering at the single connector on those boards. FWIW, I have schematics of at least three variants on the supplies used on those machines, if somebody needs one. > but I think it is waiting for something ( like a BOOT disk ? ). Probably, yeah. > They both ( machines ) have one half-height 5 1/4 floppy drive and one > half-height 10 MByte hard drive. None of the ones I have were equipped with a HD. > So far both of the CPU boards do exactly the same thing, after RESET it > puts up the following prompt on the CRT; > * KAYPRO 10 v1.9e * > Anyone know what if anything it is waiting for ( I can't believe it > wouldn't BOOT off of the hard drive, but I don't know any better ) ?? The > 10 MB Ready light for the hard disk does come on ( for what it is worth...). Does the floppy drive light come on too? They were a little weird in that respect, on my Osborne for example, the light on the floppy drive would only come on when there was actually some activity going on there. On Kaypro machines, the light would stay on for as long as the drive was _selected_. This was almost disastrous on more than one occasion when Kaypro users were introduced to Osborne hardware and had a tendency not to wait until disk operations were finished. :-) > Better yet, anyone want a couple ( or one ) KAYPRO 10s to screw around with > and add to your collection ? They are built pretty tough ! Make an offer > that will cover my Super Bowl beer fund and you're in business ! Because of > their weight, probably limited to domestic USA shipping ( from Southern > CA ). I wouldn't turn 'em down, anyway, though I'm not sure whether or not it'd be worth it to me, perhaps we better take that aspect of it up offlist... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Feb 2 12:54:02 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 13:54:02 -0500 Subject: Storage Media ( was: Seeking reverse-engineers - Apple II VisiCalc ) In-Reply-To: References: <200901281800.n0SI0AUu052577@dewey.classiccmp.org> <001901c98427$2538cc00$0201a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <200902021354.03063.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 01 February 2009 02:11:16 am Zane H. Healy wrote: > Holographic memory has been right around the corner for *HOW* long? > I first heard of working prototypes sometime between '88-90. > > Zane Since the fifties, if you read a lot of SF as I do. :-) > At 8:40 PM -0800 1/31/09, Scanning wrote: > >Jim is right ( write ? ); > > > >IBM is working on a Lithium Niobate ( LiNbO3 ) Holographic memory that > > could store tens of Terabytes in a chunk the size of a sugar cube. > > Because of optics issues this would have to be a non-removable media for > > now. Kiss your DVDs goodbye. ( reference: LASER Focus World ). > > > >Best regards, Steven > > > >> Holger Veit wrote: > >> > BlueRay (which I give 2 years > >> > until the next technology will be thrown on the customer obsoleting > >> > the format). > >> > >> Don't bet on it. Blu-Ray is the last consumer-deliverable physical > >> media, which means it is the last consumer archival media. The entire > >> entertainment industry has seen the writing on the wall and is moving > >> toward digital distribution. There will not be a successor to Blu-Ray. > >> > >> In the future, we won't be burning to pieces of plastic for archiving. > >> I fully expect to be archiving exclusively to hard disks in 10 years > >> and SSDs in 15. Eventually in 25 years all storage (flash/ssd/hard > >> disks/tape/BD-R/DVD-R/etc.) will converge into a single technology. -- > >> Jim Leonard -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Feb 2 13:14:16 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 12:14:16 -0700 Subject: Storage Media ( was: Seeking reverse-engineers - Apple II VisiCalc ) In-Reply-To: <200902021354.03063.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200901281800.n0SI0AUu052577@dewey.classiccmp.org> <001901c98427$2538cc00$0201a8c0@hal9000> <200902021354.03063.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <49874608.5060001@jetnet.ab.ca> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Sunday 01 February 2009 02:11:16 am Zane H. Healy wrote: >> Holographic memory has been right around the corner for *HOW* long? >> I first heard of working prototypes sometime between '88-90. >> >> Zane > > Since the fifties, if you read a lot of SF as I do. :-) > I don't think the laser was around back then... Now computers that take over your brain ... I am sure mid 50's. :) From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Mon Feb 2 14:19:41 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 15:19:41 -0500 Subject: Storage Media ( was: Seeking reverse-engineers - Apple II VisiCalc ) References: <200901281800.n0SI0AUu052577@dewey.classiccmp.org> <001901c98427$2538cc00$0201a8c0@hal9000> <200902021354.03063.rtellason@verizon.net> <49874608.5060001@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <18823.21853.166706.222073@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "bfranchuk" == bfranchuk writes: bfranchuk> Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> On Sunday 01 February 2009 02:11:16 am Zane H. Healy wrote: >>> Holographic memory has been right around the corner for *HOW* >>> long? I first heard of working prototypes sometime between >>> '88-90. >>> >>> Zane >> Since the fifties, if you read a lot of SF as I do. :-) >> bfranchuk> I don't think the laser was around back then... Wikipedia traces the history of lasers back to 1957. paul From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Feb 2 14:43:11 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 15:43:11 -0500 Subject: Modules for LINC-8 In-Reply-To: <4986DA40.9060007@topinform.de> References: <4985793B.20721.76368FB2@cclist.sydex.com> <4986DA40.9060007@topinform.de> Message-ID: > I do need your help for the purpose of the restoration of a LINC-8, Serial# > 4. This systems is not my own property but is belonging to the Museum of the > University of Erlangen-Nuremberg, Bavaria. > > The system in question is missing a lot of Flip-Chip boards and I would > liket o beg you to have a look at your shelves, if there are some board > which you can spend for this task. I have a gutted LINC-8 as well, and also need buckets of modules. Luckily the core stack remains. Oddly enough, I have the guts for a PDP-12. I can offer these first generation TTL Flip Chips in trade. -- Will From Jeremy.John at bl.uk Mon Feb 2 14:39:25 2009 From: Jeremy.John at bl.uk (John, Jeremy) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 20:39:25 -0000 Subject: Digital Lives Conference at the British Library Message-ID: I wonder if any classic computer specialists would be interested in attending this conference. Please do let me know if so. Best wishes, Jeremy. CONFERENCE FOR DIVERSE SPECIALISTS: ARCHIVISTS, CLASSIC COMPUTER EXPERTS, DIGITAL PRESERVATION, HISTORIANS, CURATORS, AND SOCIAL SCIENTISTS ___________________________________________ DIGITAL LIVES RESEARCH CONFERENCE 2009 Monday 9 February to Wednesday 11 February 2009 at the British Library, London Scientists, historians, writers and IT specialists will come together to address the challenge of organising and preserving personal digital archives at the first ever Digital Lives Research Conference, which will be inaugurated by British Library Chief Executive Dame Lynne Brindley. The conference will address (i) how libraries and archives can help all people whose lives are becoming increasingly digital - particularly academics - to secure, preserve and organise their personal archives of digital photographs, documents, correspondence and multimedia, for themselves and their families; and (ii) the possibility of establishing relationships with providers of online services and social systems technologies. Topics will range from digital curation and digital preservation to the creation of personal digital archives and their use by historians, biographers and scientists. Highlights include: (i) Keynote Lectures by biographers Georgina Ferry and Andrew Lycett, psychologist Charles Fernyhough, historian Orlando Figes, and archivist Dorothy Sheridan of the Mass Observation Archive (ii) Invited Presentations by George Oates, member of founding team at Flickr, Simone Brunozzi of Amazon Web Services and Ian Hughes of IBM (iii) Keynote Presentations by computer scientists Mark Baker of University of Reading, Peter Bentley of University College London, Annamaria Carusi of University of Oxford, Jon Crowcroft of University of Cambridge, Kieron O'Hara of University of Southampton and Dave Taylor of Imperial College London. (iv) A Writers in Conversation session on the creation of digital archives, featuring Tony Benn, Dame Antonia Byatt and Wendy Cope, and chaired by pioneering computer scientist Dame Wendy Hall (v) Day 3 of the conference will involve the participation of visitors and inhabitants of virtual world Second Life, with the conference broadcast onto the Elucian Islands , the Second Life home of Nature Publishing Group and Macmillan Publishers. There will be a keynote lecture by Timo Hannay, Publishing Director at Nature.com (vi) A presentation on 'Digital Life at the Extremes' by polar explorer Ben Saunders See: www.bl.uk/digital-lives/conference.html for further details. The first day of the conference will focus on the latest approaches to curating digital objects and archives. The second day will look at the development of such archives from the point of view of the creators and researchers - writers, scientists and historians. The third day will offer an overview of life online and digital archives as they are developing at present. The conference is FREE to attend on the 9 and 11 of February, registration is required as space is limited. There is a registration fee of ?35 for 10 February, but WAIVERS ARE AVAILABLE. Please register at the Digital Lives Research Conference 2009 website: www.bl.uk/digital-lives/confreg.html ***APOLOGIES FOR CROSS-POSTING*** About The Digital Lives Research Project The Digital Lives Research Project is led by the British Library and is designed to provide a major pathfinding study of personal digital archives, and is funded by the Arts and Humanities Research Council (AHRC). The project team is drawn from University College London and University of Bristol as well as the British Library itself. ************************************************************************** Experience the British Library online at www.bl.uk The British Library's new interactive Annual Report and Accounts 2007/08 : www.bl.uk/knowledge Help the British Library conserve the world's knowledge. Adopt a Book. www.bl.uk/adoptabook The Library's St Pancras site is WiFi - enabled ************************************************************************* The information contained in this e-mail is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended for the addressee(s) only. If you are not the intended recipient, please delete this e-mail and notify the postmaster at bl.uk : The contents of this e-mail must not be disclosed or copied without the sender's consent. The statements and opinions expressed in this message are those of the author and do not necessarily reflect those of the British Library. The British Library does not take any responsibility for the views of the author. ************************************************************************* From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Feb 2 14:50:22 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 12:50:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: speaking of 3.5" floppies, is 720K R.I.P.? In-Reply-To: <20090201161135.GT26511@n0jcf.net> References: <20090201161135.GT26511@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20090202124253.K96598@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 1 Feb 2009, Chris Elmquist wrote: > I don't have an answer for the other gentleman's query on 720RPM floppies > but I recently discovered that new 3.5" drives appear to no longer support > 720K media. I purchased a number of Samsung drives for a project where > I am converting a system with 5.25" drives to use 3.5" and I found that > these drives have left out the media density sense switch all together! > They no longer have any way to detect the lower density, 250kbps media > and run at 500Kbps no matter what is installed. Try nudging pin 2? Trace the circuit where it would have been and cut/jumper? The original IBM PS/2 "1.44" drive was arguably one of the first 1.4M drives, and did not have a media select switch. The data transfer rate was set by the controller, and controlled by software. The "media select" switch can have two basic functions: either switching to reduced current mode, for which there is usually an input pin on drives without the switch, or as an output from the drive to tell the controller. Either should be trivially bypassable if you want to lock the drive into "720K mode". -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Feb 2 14:57:13 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 15:57:13 -0500 Subject: Replacing failed powersupplies on qbus PDP-11s In-Reply-To: <1233565552.1958.42.camel@elric> References: <200902011813.30068.pat@computer-refuge.org> <1233533395.1958.31.camel@elric> <4985CD86.24356.777FC019@cclist.sydex.com> <1233565552.1958.42.camel@elric> Message-ID: > Again, that's all very well if you're doing something sufficiently > complex and well-defined. If you are investigating the effect of > putting what is basically a tuned circuit across the supply to a > non-linear load, where a) it's simple enough to build, and b) it's not > clearly defined enough to model, then you're far better just warming up > the soldering iron and breaking out the 'scope. Until the boss sees that you screwed around in the lab for an hour or two getting all the parts and building the test circuit, rather than spend fifteen minutes at your workstation in your cube, just to get the same results. -- Will From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Feb 2 15:05:20 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 13:05:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: 720RPM 3.5" FDDs? In-Reply-To: <200902020825.16632.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <49862D88.20306@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <200902020401.XAA09417@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <200902020825.16632.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <20090202130307.U96598@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 2 Feb 2009, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > As someone else has noted, networking people have (as far as I can tell) > always taken Mbps and Kbps to mean 10^6 and 10^3, respectively, bits > per second. and, of course, disk makers. the 1.4M drive is usually run at 300 RPM (exception: NEC, etc.) at 500 K bits per second. That 500Kbps is 500,000 bits per second. From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Feb 2 15:18:23 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 16:18:23 -0500 Subject: Storage Media ( was: Seeking reverse-engineers - Apple II VisiCalc ) In-Reply-To: <18823.21853.166706.222073@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200901281800.n0SI0AUu052577@dewey.classiccmp.org> <49874608.5060001@jetnet.ab.ca> <18823.21853.166706.222073@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <200902021618.24084.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 02 February 2009 03:19:41 pm Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "bfranchuk" == bfranchuk writes: > > bfranchuk> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >> On Sunday 01 February 2009 02:11:16 am Zane H. Healy wrote: > >>> Holographic memory has been right around the corner for *HOW* > >>> long? I first heard of working prototypes sometime between > >>> '88-90. > >>> > >>> Zane > >> > >> Since the fifties, if you read a lot of SF as I do. :-) > > bfranchuk> I don't think the laser was around back then... > > Wikipedia traces the history of lasers back to 1957. > > paul First I remember reading about them was in a library book that was copyright 1960... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Feb 2 16:25:00 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 17:25:00 -0500 Subject: DECwriter correspondent manuals? Message-ID: <200902021725.01102.pat@computer-refuge.org> Does anyone have manuals or any information about the DECwriter correspondent? I managed to grab one today, and would like to at least look at the docs before I plug it in, and turn it on, if anyone can find a copy.. Thanks, Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From sethm at loomcom.com Mon Feb 2 16:33:58 2009 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 14:33:58 -0800 Subject: DECwriter correspondent manuals? In-Reply-To: <200902021725.01102.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200902021725.01102.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 2:25 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Does anyone have manuals or any information about the DECwriter > correspondent? I managed to grab one today, and would like to at least > look at the docs before I plug it in, and turn it on, if anyone can > find a copy.. Hi Pat, There's some information on the LA12 here: http://vt100.net/docs/tp83/chapter13.html It was enough to get mine set up when I had one, at least. Good luck! -Seth From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Feb 2 16:36:30 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 14:36:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: Replacing failed powersupplies on qbus PDP-11s In-Reply-To: References: <200902011813.30068.pat@computer-refuge.org> <1233533395.1958.31.camel@elric> <4985CD86.24356.777FC019@cclist.sydex.com> <1233565552.1958.42.camel@elric> Message-ID: <20090202143336.U804@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 2 Feb 2009, William Donzelli wrote: > > Again, that's all very well if you're doing something sufficiently > > complex and well-defined. If you are investigating the effect of > > putting what is basically a tuned circuit across the supply to a > > non-linear load, where a) it's simple enough to build, and b) it's not > > clearly defined enough to model, then you're far better just warming up > > the soldering iron and breaking out the 'scope. > Until the boss sees that you screwed around in the lab for an hour or > two getting all the parts and building the test circuit, rather than > spend fifteen minutes at your workstation in your cube, just to get > the same results. Until the boss sees that you screwed around in the lab for fifteen minutes without a demonstrable product, when you could have been spending an hour or two at your workstation in your cubicle, just to get the same results. ? From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 2 17:26:27 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 15:26:27 -0800 Subject: Storage Media ( was: Seeking reverse-engineers - Apple II VisiCalc ) In-Reply-To: <200902021618.24084.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200901281800.n0SI0AUu052577@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <18823.21853.166706.222073@gargle.gargle.HOWL>, <200902021618.24084.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <498710A3.2821.7C6E012E@cclist.sydex.com> On Monday 02 February 2009 03:19:41 pm Paul Koning wrote: > Wikipedia traces the history of lasers back to 1957. ...and the first MASER back to 1953. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 2 12:14:57 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 10:14:57 -0800 Subject: speaking of 3.5" floppies, is 720K R.I.P.? In-Reply-To: References: <20090201161135.GT26511@n0jcf.net>, <498636BB.15917.791AE9C9@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <4986C7A1.19307.7B50C2E7@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Feb 2009 at 7:13, dwight elvey wrote: > I'd given up on finding ones with the /READY signal. > I needed one to add double sided to my Canon Cat. It > had a Canon with a weird 20 pin cable that I just recently > figured out the wiring. I made a circuit with three ttl > chips to recreate the /READY that works well enough. > I had to make a cable translator anyway so I had > a piece of proto board to add the chips on. I've done the same here with an 8-pin PIC (the advantage is that there are no discrete timing components). The same could probably be done with one of the 6-pin PICs. But finding drives with a native READY signal is better. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 2 17:24:44 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 15:24:44 -0800 Subject: 720RPM 3.5" FDDs? In-Reply-To: <20090202130307.U96598@shell.lmi.net> References: , <200902020825.16632.pat@computer-refuge.org>, <20090202130307.U96598@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4987103C.29017.7C6C6C17@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Feb 2009 at 13:05, Fred Cisin wrote: > and, of course, disk makers. > the 1.4M drive is usually run at 300 RPM (exception: NEC, etc.) at > 500 K bits per second. That 500Kbps is 500,000 bits per second. Oh, heck, I recall the differences in the 1960's. One manufacturer would talk about a 65K or 131K memory and another would talk about a 64K or 128K. I don't believe that, when it comes to numerable items, such as the number of words a memory device has (as opposed to a unit of measurement) there has ever been any universal agreement. `When _I_ use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, `it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less.' `The question is,' said Alice, `whether you CAN make words mean so many different things.' `The question is,' said Humpty Dumpty, `which is to be master - - that's all.' Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Feb 2 18:29:43 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 16:29:43 -0800 (PST) Subject: 720RPM 3.5" FDDs? In-Reply-To: <4987103C.29017.7C6C6C17@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <200902020825.16632.pat@computer-refuge.org>, <20090202130307.U96598@shell.lmi.net> <4987103C.29017.7C6C6C17@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20090202162225.E3173@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 2 Feb 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Oh, heck, I recall the differences in the 1960's. One manufacturer > would talk about a 65K or 131K memory and another would talk about a > 64K or 128K. I don't believe that, when it comes to numerable items, > such as the number of words a memory device has (as opposed to a unit > of measurement) there has ever been any universal agreement. "The competition only has 64K, but we have 65.536 K! They only have 128K, but we have 131 K!" Haven't heard THAT crap for almost 25 years. (other than "they only have 10.16 megabytes, but we have 10.653696 megabytes!") From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Mon Feb 2 18:35:30 2009 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 16:35:30 -0800 Subject: Storage Media ( was: Seeking reverse-engineers - Apple II VisiCalc ) References: <200901281800.n0SI0AUu052577@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <18823.21853.166706.222073@gargle.gargle.HOWL>, <200902021618.24084.rtellason@verizon.net> <498710A3.2821.7C6E012E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <000d01c98597$51356720$0201a8c0@hal9000> Photon Torpedoes - January 19, 1967 Best regards, Steven > On Monday 02 February 2009 03:19:41 pm Paul Koning wrote: > > > Wikipedia traces the history of lasers back to 1957. > > ...and the first MASER back to 1953. > > Cheers, > Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 2 19:13:09 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 17:13:09 -0800 Subject: 720RPM 3.5" FDDs? In-Reply-To: <20090202162225.E3173@shell.lmi.net> References: , <4987103C.29017.7C6C6C17@cclist.sydex.com>, <20090202162225.E3173@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <498729A5.32290.7CCFA130@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Feb 2009 at 16:29, Fred Cisin wrote: > "they only have 10.16 megabytes, but we have 10.653696 megabytes!") I remember that when we were shipping systems with 10 MB Rodime hard drives, marketing insisted that the software limit the capacity to 7 MB, because that's what the product brochure said. Cheers, Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Feb 2 20:11:45 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 18:11:45 -0800 Subject: speaking of 3.5" floppies, is 720K R.I.P.? In-Reply-To: <4986C7A1.19307.7B50C2E7@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20090201161135.GT26511@n0jcf.net>, <498636BB.15917.791AE9C9@cclist.sydex.com>, <4986C7A1.19307.7B50C2E7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > From: cclist at sydex.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 10:14:57 -0800 > Subject: RE: speaking of 3.5" floppies, is 720K R.I.P.? > > On 2 Feb 2009 at 7:13, dwight elvey wrote: > >> I'd given up on finding ones with the /READY signal. >> I needed one to add double sided to my Canon Cat. It >> had a Canon with a weird 20 pin cable that I just recently >> figured out the wiring. I made a circuit with three ttl >> chips to recreate the /READY that works well enough. >> I had to make a cable translator anyway so I had >> a piece of proto board to add the chips on. > > I've done the same here with an 8-pin PIC (the advantage is that > there are no discrete timing components). The same could probably be > done with one of the 6-pin PICs. But finding drives with a native > READY signal is better. > > Cheers, > Chuck > Hi The only timing I had was for powerup reset. Just a cap, resistor and diode. The rest is digital. I use an edge on diskchange to clear and the first index to set. It isn't perfect as one could stick a disk in and turn the motor on and then remove without stepping. This is not likely on the Cat because it always uses the disk for a dump ( multiple tracks ). The Teac holds the index until ready. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live? Hotmail??more than just e-mail. http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_hm_justgotbetter_howitworks_012009 From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 2 20:40:24 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 18:40:24 -0800 Subject: speaking of 3.5" floppies, is 720K R.I.P.? In-Reply-To: References: <20090201161135.GT26511@n0jcf.net>, <4986C7A1.19307.7B50C2E7@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <49873E18.4261.7D1F6F6C@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Feb 2009 at 18:11, dwight elvey wrote: > The only timing I had was for powerup reset. Just a cap, resistor > and diode. The rest is digital. I use an edge on diskchange > to clear and the first index to set. It isn't perfect as one > could stick a disk in and turn the motor on and then remove > without stepping. This is not likely on the Cat because > it always uses the disk for a dump ( multiple tracks ). > The Teac holds the index until ready. Mine was for 5.25" drives; basically it waits for 2 index pulses spaced within 10% of the nominal speed of the drive before asserting READY. Could probably also be done with a couple of one-shots, but I hate one-shots--and the PIC is smaller. The nice thing is that the same PIC setup can also simulate hard- sectored diskettes. The PICs are rated to sink/source 25 ma on any I/O pin, not to excees 125 ma for all pins. A little dodgy for 150 ohm pullups (33 ma at 5v), but I've had no problems thus far. Cheers, Chuck From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Feb 2 16:47:11 2009 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 14:47:11 -0800 Subject: DECwriter correspondent manuals? In-Reply-To: <200902021725.01102.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200902021725.01102.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: I have one NIB with *everything*. But I probably won't be able to get at it until the weekend. TTFN - Guy On Feb 2, 2009, at 2:25 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Does anyone have manuals or any information about the DECwriter > correspondent? I managed to grab one today, and would like to at > least > look at the docs before I plug it in, and turn it on, if anyone can > find a copy.. > > Thanks, > > Pat > -- > Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ > The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org > From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Feb 2 21:53:33 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 22:53:33 -0500 Subject: DECwriter correspondent manuals? In-Reply-To: References: <200902021725.01102.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200902022253.33540.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 02 February 2009, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > I have one NIB with *everything*. But I probably won't be able to > get at it until the weekend. Thanks, but I think that the page on vt100.net that Seth referred to is enough information for me for the moment. I wonder if the Correspondent is referred to in one of the DEC (terminals probably) handbooks that I've got. Pat > On Feb 2, 2009, at 2:25 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > Does anyone have manuals or any information about the DECwriter > > correspondent? I managed to grab one today, and would like to at > > least > > look at the docs before I plug it in, and turn it on, if anyone can > > find a copy.. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Pat > > -- > > Purdue University Research Computing --- > > http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge > > --- http://computer-refuge.org -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Feb 2 22:49:34 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2009 21:49:34 -0700 Subject: 720RPM 3.5" FDDs? In-Reply-To: <20090202162225.E3173@shell.lmi.net> References: , <200902020825.16632.pat@computer-refuge.org>, <20090202130307.U96598@shell.lmi.net> <4987103C.29017.7C6C6C17@cclist.sydex.com> <20090202162225.E3173@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4987CCDE.7010809@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 2 Feb 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Oh, heck, I recall the differences in the 1960's. One manufacturer >> would talk about a 65K or 131K memory and another would talk about a >> 64K or 128K. I don't believe that, when it comes to numerable items, >> such as the number of words a memory device has (as opposed to a unit >> of measurement) there has ever been any universal agreement. > > "The competition only has 64K, but we have 65.536 K! > They only have 128K, but we have 131 K!" > Haven't heard THAT crap for almost 25 years. > > (other than > "they only have 10.16 megabytes, but we have 10.653696 megabytes!") > But looking back ( binary ) computers all came with 4096 words or 8192 words standard for the most part. Also a few uS for access too!. Ben. From pontus at update.uu.se Tue Feb 3 00:28:38 2009 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 07:28:38 +0100 Subject: Modules for LINC-8 In-Reply-To: References: <4985793B.20721.76368FB2@cclist.sydex.com> <4986DA40.9060007@topinform.de> Message-ID: <4987E416.3090504@update.uu.se> William Donzelli wrote: >> I do need your help for the purpose of the restoration of a LINC-8, Serial# >> 4. This systems is not my own property but is belonging to the Museum of the >> University of Erlangen-Nuremberg, Bavaria. >> >> The system in question is missing a lot of Flip-Chip boards and I would >> liket o beg you to have a look at your shelves, if there are some board >> which you can spend for this task. >> > > I have a gutted LINC-8 as well, and also need buckets of modules. > Luckily the core stack remains. > > Oddly enough, I have the guts for a PDP-12. I can offer these first > generation TTL Flip Chips in trade. > > -- > Will > I believe that only 130 (or so) LINC-8's were made. It would be interesting to track down the ones that still exist. If you would like to send me your serial number, some background info and perhaps even a picture, I'd be more than willing to make a register. Unless it has already been made of course. With your three machines I know of four survivors :) And have a hunch were there are at least one more. Unfortunately I cannot help you with the flip chips. Kind Regards, Pontus. From rollerton at gmail.com Tue Feb 3 00:39:43 2009 From: rollerton at gmail.com (Robert Ollerton) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 00:39:43 -0600 Subject: Looking for Xerox 914 docs. Message-ID: <2789adda0902022239w12e759e2tc76ab3431beadfae@mail.gmail.com> Not quite a computer but maybe a distant relative. I am looking for anything on the Xerox 914; anything operation, maintenance, or marketing material that I can get a copy of. Its for a uh, performance that I am involved in and I would like to be more technically accurate in describing the machine and its operation. Thanks! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Feb 3 00:50:49 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 01:50:49 -0500 Subject: Modules for LINC-8 In-Reply-To: <4987E416.3090504@update.uu.se> References: <4985793B.20721.76368FB2@cclist.sydex.com> <4986DA40.9060007@topinform.de> <4987E416.3090504@update.uu.se> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 1:28 AM, Pontus wrote: > William Donzelli wrote: >>> I do need your help for the purpose of the restoration of a LINC-8, Serial# >>> 4. This systems is not my own property but is belonging to the Museum of the >>> University of Erlangen-Nuremberg, Bavaria. >> >> I have a gutted LINC-8 as well, and also need buckets of modules. >> Luckily the core stack remains. > > I believe that only 130 (or so) LINC-8's were made. Was it really that few? I know that some of the older 12-bit machines were made in small quantities (like ~1000 -8/Ses), but I had no idea that one could count LINC-8s in dozens. > With your three machines I know of four survivors :) And have a hunch > were there are at least one more. Are you including the ones that Charlie Lasner has? I visited him about 15 years ago and saw at least one of them, along with a whole lot of other stuff I'd never seen anywhere else (and I own several intact R-series-logic machines - sorry... no pile of module spares; I wish I did have extras). -ethan From pontus at update.uu.se Tue Feb 3 01:28:54 2009 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 08:28:54 +0100 Subject: Modules for LINC-8 In-Reply-To: References: <4985793B.20721.76368FB2@cclist.sydex.com> <4986DA40.9060007@topinform.de> <4987E416.3090504@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <4987F236.6010108@update.uu.se> > Was it really that few? I know that some of the older 12-bit machines > were made in small quantities (like ~1000 -8/Ses), but I had no idea > that one could count LINC-8s in dozens. > > Well, my only source is this: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/dec-faq/pdp8/section-6.html Which says 142 sales(!). And given its age and how few I've seen or heard of it seems plausible. > Are you including the ones that Charlie Lasner has? > > > > I visited him about 15 years ago and saw at least one of them, along > with a whole lot of other stuff I'd never seen anywhere else (and I > own several intact R-series-logic machines - sorry... no pile of > module spares; I wish I did have extras). > Maybe. I was thinking of the Retrocomputing society of Rhode Island, which I believe has one or two, but I have not confirmed that. But now mr Lasner is on my list as well :) I did a search for LINC-8 in the cctalk archives, and there are a quite a few posts about it, so there might be some more around. Thank you, Pontus. From sethm at loomcom.com Tue Feb 3 01:44:07 2009 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 23:44:07 -0800 Subject: DECwriter correspondent manuals? In-Reply-To: <200902022253.33540.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200902021725.01102.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200902022253.33540.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 2, 2009 at 7:53 PM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Monday 02 February 2009, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> I have one NIB with *everything*. But I probably won't be able to >> get at it until the weekend. > > Thanks, but I think that the page on vt100.net that Seth referred to is > enough information for me for the moment. I wonder if the > Correspondent is referred to in one of the DEC (terminals probably) > handbooks that I've got. It's a real pity that ribbons for the LA12 are getting hard to find. I'm sure there's some sort of re-inking you can do in the meantime. Other than that, it's one of my favorite printing terminals of all time! It's so small, doesn't take up a lot of space, and easily portable. A great toy, I really wish I'd never given mine away. Ah well. I have boatloads of Silent 700s to fill the aching void in my heart. -Seth From asholz at topinform.de Tue Feb 3 01:44:49 2009 From: asholz at topinform.de (Andreas Holz) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 08:44:49 +0100 Subject: Modules for LINC-8 In-Reply-To: <4987E416.3090504@update.uu.se> References: <4985793B.20721.76368FB2@cclist.sydex.com> <4986DA40.9060007@topinform.de> <4987E416.3090504@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <4987F5F1.4060503@topinform.de> I've serial #4 and #85 in front of me. Andreas > William Donzelli wrote: > >>> I do need your help for the purpose of the restoration of a LINC-8, Serial# >>> 4. This systems is not my own property but is belonging to the Museum of the >>> University of Erlangen-Nuremberg, Bavaria. >>> >>> The system in question is missing a lot of Flip-Chip boards and I would >>> liket o beg you to have a look at your shelves, if there are some board >>> which you can spend for this task. >>> >>> >> I have a gutted LINC-8 as well, and also need buckets of modules. >> Luckily the core stack remains. >> >> Oddly enough, I have the guts for a PDP-12. I can offer these first >> generation TTL Flip Chips in trade. >> >> -- >> Will >> >> > I believe that only 130 (or so) LINC-8's were made. It would be > interesting to track down the ones that still exist. If you would like > to send me your serial number, some background info and perhaps even a > picture, I'd be more than willing to make a register. Unless it has > already been made of course. > With your three machines I know of four survivors :) And have a hunch > were there are at least one more. > > Unfortunately I cannot help you with the flip chips. > > Kind Regards, > Pontus. > > > From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Feb 3 03:43:10 2009 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 10:43:10 +0100 (CET) Subject: Ex-thread "Re: 720RPM 3.5" FDDs?" In-Reply-To: <4987CCDE.7010809@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <200902020825.16632.pat@computer-refuge.org>, <20090202130307.U96598@shell.lmi.net> <4987103C.29017.7C6C6C17@cclist.sydex.com> <20090202162225.E3173@shell.lmi.net> <4987CCDE.7010809@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Feb 2009, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote: >> On Mon, 2 Feb 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> Oh, heck, I recall the differences in the 1960's. One manufacturer >>> would talk about a 65K or 131K memory and another would talk about a >>> 64K or 128K. I don't believe that, when it comes to numerable items, >>> such as the number of words a memory device has (as opposed to a unit >>> of measurement) there has ever been any universal agreement. >> >> "The competition only has 64K, but we have 65.536 K! >> They only have 128K, but we have 131 K!" >> Haven't heard THAT crap for almost 25 years. >> >> (other than >> "they only have 10.16 megabytes, but we have 10.653696 megabytes!") >> > But looking back ( binary ) computers all came with 4096 words or 8192 words > standard for the most part. Also a few uS for access too!. Ben. > Hello? Is that discussion in any form related to the subject? No? Then please choose a new subject! I hate thread hijacking. Christian From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Feb 3 08:52:36 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 09:52:36 -0500 Subject: Modules for LINC-8 In-Reply-To: <4987F236.6010108@update.uu.se> References: <4985793B.20721.76368FB2@cclist.sydex.com> <4986DA40.9060007@topinform.de> <4987E416.3090504@update.uu.se> <4987F236.6010108@update.uu.se> Message-ID: > Maybe. I was thinking of the Retrocomputing society of Rhode Island, > which I believe has one or two, but I have not confirmed that. > But now mr Lasner is on my list as well :) Yes. Actually we had two at the beginning (and three PDP-12s), but now only one. The second one is now mine, and is gutted. The first one mostly works, but as of a few months ago was giving memory errors. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Feb 3 09:00:47 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 10:00:47 -0500 Subject: Modules for LINC-8 In-Reply-To: <4987E416.3090504@update.uu.se> References: <4985793B.20721.76368FB2@cclist.sydex.com> <4986DA40.9060007@topinform.de> <4987E416.3090504@update.uu.se> Message-ID: > I believe that only 130 (or so) LINC-8's were made. It would be > interesting to track down the ones that still exist. If you would like > to send me your serial number, some background info and perhaps even a > picture, I'd be more than willing to make a register. Unless it has > already been made of course. > With your three machines I know of four survivors :) And have a hunch > were there are at least one more. Watch out with registers of rare items - lots of collectors really do not like this. Every so often they attract annoying people that ask to purchase items from the register, and some of these guys can be persistent. One of my machines landed on a register some time ago, and from time to time I get bugged about it. I do not think I ever asked to be on the register. Now, with my LINC-8 or the other machine, I really do not care. In fact, I have posted on this list years ago that I am willing to trade the LINC-8 off (and almost did at one point), and that offer still stands. But others, like RCS/RI, will absolutely not. -- Will From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Feb 3 09:57:10 2009 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 10:57:10 -0500 Subject: Modules for LINC-8 In-Reply-To: References: <4985793B.20721.76368FB2@cclist.sydex.com> <4986DA40.9060007@topinform.de> <4987E416.3090504@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <8980.1233676630@mini> William Donzelli wrote: >...others, like RCS/RI, will absolutely not. Speaking of RCS/RI, anyone know how they are doing? Alive & well? just curious in these rough economic times... -brad From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Feb 3 10:25:35 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 11:25:35 -0500 Subject: Modules for LINC-8 In-Reply-To: <8980.1233676630@mini> References: <4985793B.20721.76368FB2@cclist.sydex.com> <4986DA40.9060007@topinform.de> <4987E416.3090504@update.uu.se> <8980.1233676630@mini> Message-ID: > Speaking of RCS/RI, anyone know how they are doing? Alive & well? > > just curious in these rough economic times... Surviving. There is talk lately of getting one of the MH10 boxes lit up, just for fun. -- Will From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Feb 3 11:28:07 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 10:28:07 -0700 Subject: Ex-thread "Re: 720RPM 3.5" FDDs?" In-Reply-To: References: , <200902020825.16632.pat@computer-refuge.org>, <20090202130307.U96598@shell.lmi.net> <4987103C.29017.7C6C6C17@cclist.sydex.com> <20090202162225.E3173@shell.lmi.net> <4987CCDE.7010809@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <49887EA7.9090006@jetnet.ab.ca> Christian Corti wrote: > Hello? > Is that discussion in any form related to the subject? No? Then please > choose a new subject! I hate thread hijacking. Only when I take this thread to cuba. > Christian > From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Tue Feb 3 11:57:26 2009 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 17:57:26 +0000 Subject: Digital Lives Conference at the British Library In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I got myself a place at the conference, I hope the keynote M$ talks dont have too much sales speak, will see if any source archiving gets mentioned. Any questions I should ask? Dave Caroline , archivist #classiccmp From pontus at update.uu.se Tue Feb 3 12:49:29 2009 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 19:49:29 +0100 Subject: Modules for LINC-8 In-Reply-To: References: <4985793B.20721.76368FB2@cclist.sydex.com> <4986DA40.9060007@topinform.de> <4987E416.3090504@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <498891B9.6050106@update.uu.se> > Watch out with registers of rare items - lots of collectors really do > not like this. Every so often they attract annoying people that ask to > purchase items from the register, and some of these guys can be > persistent. One of my machines landed on a register some time ago, and > from time to time I get bugged about it. I do not think I ever asked > to be on the register. > You make a good point. I only meant to satisfy my own curiosity. There are registers for the PDP-7 and PDP-12 which are helpful for those seeking help with their own system and for people like me who like to know where I can see one in person (in museums). Perhaps I should keep such a register to myself, or at least ask the owners of permission before going public. Cheers, Pontus. From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Feb 3 13:03:03 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 11:03:03 -0800 Subject: Computer (museum) registers [was RE: Modules for LINC-8] In-Reply-To: <498891B9.6050106@update.uu.se> References: <4985793B.20721.76368FB2@cclist.sydex.com> <4986DA40.9060007@topinform.de> <4987E416.3090504@update.uu.se> <498891B9.6050106@update.uu.se> Message-ID: > From: Pontus > Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 10:49 AM > There are registers for the PDP-7 and PDP-12 which are helpful for those > seeking help with their own system and for people like me who like to know > where I can see one in person (in museums). Where is there a register of PDP-7 systems? I know of only two, personally. Rich Alderson Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell From pontus at update.uu.se Tue Feb 3 13:51:31 2009 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 20:51:31 +0100 Subject: Computer (museum) registers [was RE: Modules for LINC-8] In-Reply-To: References: <4985793B.20721.76368FB2@cclist.sydex.com> <4986DA40.9060007@topinform.de> <4987E416.3090504@update.uu.se> <498891B9.6050106@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <4988A043.9000300@update.uu.se> Rich Alderson wrote: > Where is there a register of PDP-7 systems? I know of only two, personally. > Its been on this list before, here is the link: http://www.soemtron.org/pdp7.html Lets hope the two you know about are not on the list :) Cheers, Pontus. From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Tue Feb 3 14:04:34 2009 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 21:04:34 +0100 Subject: searching a metal box for 11/04 5.25in high Message-ID: Hi all, I noticed an 11/34 on eBay (# 200302612244) which reminded me of the 11/04 that I have in similar size / housing. Just as the machine up for auction, I am missing the black metal box into which the unit is placed and mounted in a 19" rack. So ... if anybody has an empty box, I am very interested! thanks, - Henk, PA8PDP From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Feb 3 14:22:49 2009 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 14:22:49 -0600 Subject: IBM 1401 "Edith" program? Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20090203142145.05a84eb0@mail.threedee.com> A fan of my ASCII art page sent this question. I hadn't heard of it before. - John >Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 15:15:23 -0500 >Subject: Re: Beautiful old alpha/character art >From: bayard >To: John Foust > > >Do you have a copy of the output of the legendary EDITH program? I googled around and all i found was a picture of the punch cards! > >http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110304561718 From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Feb 3 14:57:58 2009 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 14:57:58 -0600 Subject: IBM 1401 "Edith" program? In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20090203142145.05a84eb0@mail.threedee.com> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20090203142145.05a84eb0@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20090203145739.05aa1560@mail.threedee.com> At 02:22 PM 2/3/2009, John Foust wrote: >A fan of my ASCII art page sent this question. I hadn't heard of it before. Whoops. Did a Google search for it and my web was the top hit. :-) - John From slawmaster at gmail.com Tue Feb 3 16:05:25 2009 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 17:05:25 -0500 Subject: Computer (museum) registers [was RE: Modules for LINC-8] In-Reply-To: <4988A043.9000300@update.uu.se> References: <4985793B.20721.76368FB2@cclist.sydex.com> <4986DA40.9060007@topinform.de> <4987E416.3090504@update.uu.se> <498891B9.6050106@update.uu.se> <4988A043.9000300@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <7d3530220902031405q2b065ddk7ddcdf9b61aab89e@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Feb 3, 2009 at 2:51 PM, Pontus wrote: > Rich Alderson wrote: >> Where is there a register of PDP-7 systems? I know of only two, personally. >> > Its been on this list before, here is the link: > > http://www.soemtron.org/pdp7.html > > Lets hope the two you know about are not on the list :) > > Cheers, > Pontus. > Speaking of this list, does anyone know the fate of PDP7A 102 08/1968 University of Rochester? I contacted someone at U of R and he said he didn't know anything about it; not surprising since I doubt many people still work there who used it. John Floren -- "I've tried programming Ruby on Rails, following TechCrunch in my RSS reader, and drinking absinthe. It doesn't work. I'm going back to C, Hunter S. Thompson, and cheap whiskey." -- Ted Dziuba From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Tue Feb 3 16:48:26 2009 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 23:48:26 +0100 Subject: Computer (museum) registers [was RE: Modules for LINC-8] In-Reply-To: <4988A043.9000300@update.uu.se> References: <4985793B.20721.76368FB2@cclist.sydex.com> <4986DA40.9060007@topinform.de> <4987E416.3090504@update.uu.se> <498891B9.6050106@update.uu.se> <4988A043.9000300@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <940182FF-2867-4120-B612-7AD89540DC37@ifi.uio.no> On 3. feb.. 2009, at 20.51, Pontus wrote: > Rich Alderson wrote: >> Where is there a register of PDP-7 systems? I know of only two, >> personally. >> > Its been on this list before, here is the link: > > http://www.soemtron.org/pdp7.html > > Lets hope the two you know about are not on the list :) That PDP-7 is in Oslo. However, it is not in operable condition. Long story follows: The PDP-7 was my first real retrocomputing project. In retrospect, it was probably a massively bad call for a first project! Before I began, I didn't even know what a capacitor was. The machine was in the university library in which I was hanging out. It was a better use of time than attending class. Although my grades suffered, I never did really have trouble justifying skipping a school FrontPage class for deciphering the inner workings of a computer. :-) Before I touched anything, I took the maintenance and user manuals with me to a week-long holiday at my family's summerhouse, and I still remember the deep effect the F-77A service manual had on me. (now there's a sentence you don't hear every day...) I'd been a computer geek before this, but I had never quite understood computers past the level of "I input some mnemonics, and then magic happens inside the chip". A few years later, I saw a video of Steve Wozniak explaining how he "fell in love" with the PDP-8 as he read the manual. He exactly described my own feelings. Although I had idly programmed computers since I was 12 (Well, since age 9 if you count BASIC - but one doesn't, does one...) this was the first computer I felt I could *understand*, and it made a lasting impression on me and gave me a lasting fascination with retrocomputing as a way of "understanding" computers and computer engineering in a way that is simply not possible with the vastly more capable but yet somehow less interesting modern systems. The PDP-7 documentation was "describing a world" which was immensely fascinating to me. Anyway, back to the machine itself. Having read up on it, and consulted with electronics engineers (funny how those seem to be abundant in a CS/EE building, huh...) and also this mailing list, I found that the best course of action was to reform the capacitors in the PSUs, and then test the PSUs under a dummy load. The capacitors all held a charge marvelously, and were surprisingly close to their labelled capacitance. The PSUs were all within spec - not bad for a system that hadn't seen power since 1977! When initially powered up the CPU was completely dead. I managed to locate a few problems with individual components and swapping the boards for working ones. (There was a cache of spare flip-chips - and I refused to allow a PDP-7 to become my first soldering job!). One of my first repairs, and the one that really got the system going, was swapping out a B204 -- IIRC, the faulty board had an off-value resistor -- in the main timing chain. By the time I was "done", the CPU was able to fetch, decode, and execute arithmetic, conditional branch, and OPR instructions - and those were just the ones I tested. However, when I STARTed the CPU, the system looped at location 0. I quickly found out why: The physics department had, to deal with an increase in I/O load, created their own Automatic Priority Interrupt (The paper I read described it as "a poor man's API" - I think it was submitted to DECUS). The professor who used the machine is quite tall, over 2 meters, at least - and is described by many as "Norway's (largest/greatest) scientist". One time in the 1970s, he and a colleague of comparable stature were at a DECUS or DECworld or somesuch meeting. The conferancier, when receiving them, asked - "Are all Norwegians this tall!?". Immediately, his colleague replied - "No - we were the only ones who could fit on the plane.". :-) The PMAPI was built out of 74-series circuitry. Of course, when the system was decommissioned only a few years later, 74-series logic was both bloody expensive and general-purpose, so those boards were removed. As a result of this, the CPU always loops on an active-low IRQ from the I/O rack. The absence of any I/O left me unable to test any of the other peripheral devices. The paper tape reader would start when asked to by the CPU (The binary load feature necessitated some direct glue between the controller and the CPU), The Teletype would transmit correct codes as read by the I/O rack status lamps. The TTY itself (a KSR33) had a missing codebar reset bail, and eventually the H-bar broke (wow, it's been 4 years and I still remember the name of the damned parts. The Teletype manual was also a fascinating read.) The core memory could store and recall worst-case noise patterns entered into the system by a program I wrote which I stepped through while holding in "CONTINUE". Considering how inexperienced and unknowledgeable I was, I'm damned glad I never managed to make anything catch fire, and as a bonus, I think I really got quite far all things considered. The wall-like learning curve was very interesting to climb and I'm a happier person for it. Regards, -Tore :) From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Tue Feb 3 18:18:38 2009 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2009 16:18:38 -0800 Subject: KAYPRO 10 - Need Help Please References: <0d21dde7c929acf93c1249e8882e2b51@bellsouth.net> <1B65B7A9-22A8-4300-B573-73FF9DAE1FF5@neurotica.com> <001601c9843c$b163c620$0201a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <000d01c9865e$20bd3b50$0201a8c0@hal9000> List ( et al ); The KAYPRO twins have been adopted and have a new home. Thanks to all for the inquires, comments and feedback. Best regards, Steven From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Feb 3 18:16:06 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 16:16:06 -0800 Subject: Computer (museum) registers [was RE: Modules for LINC-8] In-Reply-To: <4988A043.9000300@update.uu.se> References: <4985793B.20721.76368FB2@cclist.sydex.com> <4986DA40.9060007@topinform.de> <4987E416.3090504@update.uu.se> <498891B9.6050106@update.uu.se> <4988A043.9000300@update.uu.se> Message-ID: > From: Pontus > Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 11:52 AM > Rich Alderson wrote: >> Where is there a register of PDP-7 systems? I know of only two, >> personally. > Its been on this list before, here is the link: > http://www.soemtron.org/pdp7.html >Lets hope the two you know about are not on the list :) Nope, Tore's and ours are on the list. When we disassembled the system in the High Energy Physics Lab at the University of Oregon in June, 2006, it was still in running condition. Rich Alderson Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Feb 3 18:46:56 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 19:46:56 -0500 Subject: Computer (museum) registers [was RE: Modules for LINC-8] In-Reply-To: References: <4986DA40.9060007@topinform.de> <4987E416.3090504@update.uu.se> <498891B9.6050106@update.uu.se> <4988A043.9000300@update.uu.se> Message-ID: > Nope, Tore's and ours are on the list. CHM has one, from Boston? Other than a PDP-6, it is almost safe to assume that if it was a major DEC product of old, CHM has one. -- Will From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Wed Feb 4 10:39:34 2009 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 17:39:34 +0100 Subject: Computer (museum) registers [was RE: Modules for LINC-8] In-Reply-To: References: <4985793B.20721.76368FB2@cclist.sydex.com> <4986DA40.9060007@topinform.de> <4987E416.3090504@update.uu.se> <498891B9.6050106@update.uu.se> <4988A043.9000300@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <9507AFBA-8507-4A4B-B574-416A441C3B63@ifi.uio.no> On 4. feb.. 2009, at 01.16, Rich Alderson wrote: >> From: Pontus >> Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 11:52 AM > >> Rich Alderson wrote: > >>> Where is there a register of PDP-7 systems? I know of only two, >>> personally. > > >> Lets hope the two you know about are not on the list :) > > Nope, Tore's and ours are on the list. > > When we disassembled the system in the High Energy Physics Lab at the > University of Oregon in June, 2006, it was still in running condition. I seem to recall that there was one in Australia as part of some historical collection there? -Tore :) From legalize at xmission.com Wed Feb 4 10:59:54 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 09:59:54 -0700 Subject: bitsavers down? Message-ID: My RSS feed generator has been erroring out for a while now. Apparently I can't fetch www.bitsavers.org/pdf/Whatsnew.txt Can anyone else get there? Is this a known problem? I haven't seen it mentioned on the list. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Feb 4 11:03:17 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 12:03:17 -0500 Subject: bitsavers down? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200902041203.17909.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 04 February 2009, Richard wrote: > My RSS feed generator has been erroring out for a while now. > Apparently I can't fetch www.bitsavers.org/pdf/Whatsnew.txt > > Can anyone else get there? > > Is this a known problem? I haven't seen it mentioned on the list. It works fine for me. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Feb 4 11:08:23 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 09:08:23 -0800 Subject: Simulation vs breadboarding (was Replacing failed powersupplies on qbus PDP-11s) Message-ID: <4989CB87.2020600@bitsavers.org> > Until the boss sees that you screwed around in the lab for an hour or > two getting all the parts and building the test circuit I doubt any company newer than 10 years old even has lab stock any more to breadboard something with. I'd end up going to Haltek or Halted for parts, because Apple killed off their parts stock room when the hardware group was moving from Valley Green to Infinite Loop. One day I went over to it and it was empty. They had dumped the whole thing into recycling because none of the hardware engineers used any of it anymore. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Feb 4 11:10:14 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 09:10:14 -0800 Subject: bitsavers down? Message-ID: <4989CBF6.5010606@bitsavers.org> It was down for a few days. I had hoped Jay was upgrading the server. The ccmp web server is on the same machine. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Feb 4 11:16:15 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 09:16:15 -0800 Subject: PDP-7's Message-ID: <4989CD5F.3040107@bitsavers.org> > Where is there a register of PDP-7 systems? I know of only two, personally. Three, the U Oregon system, CHM's, and the one in Oslo. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Feb 4 11:17:42 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 09:17:42 -0800 Subject: PDP-7's Message-ID: <4989CDB6.5090008@bitsavers.org> > I seem to recall that there was one in Australia oops, forgot that one. Max Burnett's From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 4 11:59:17 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 09:59:17 -0800 Subject: bitsavers down? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <498966F5.5877.858F0D8B@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Feb 2009 at 9:59, Richard wrote: > My RSS feed generator has been erroring out for a while now. > Apparently I can't fetch www.bitsavers.org/pdf/Whatsnew.txt > > Can anyone else get there? > > Is this a known problem? I haven't seen it mentioned on the list. My bookmark is set to the bistsavers.vt100.net mirror. I find the transfer speeds to be better there and I suspect that Al appreciates me not gobbling his bandwidth as I scratch my mental itches. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Feb 4 12:51:59 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 13:51:59 -0500 Subject: Anyone have a line on batteries for the NLS portable oscilloscope? Message-ID: Hi, All, The topic of replacement batteries came up in the Yahoo Group for the RB5X, and someone posted a link for 2 volt 2.5 Amp-hour cells (which are apparently used in an older version of the robot than mine)... I saw the image and immediately thought of my NLS portable oscilloscope. I'd love to refurb mine, but $45 in batteries is a little on the high side for me. Has anyone on the list replaced a set of this sort of battery, and does anyone know of a place that stocks them for a bit less? -ethan From nierveze at radio-astronomie.com Mon Feb 2 05:31:54 2009 From: nierveze at radio-astronomie.com (nierveze) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 12:31:54 +0100 Subject: decmate Message-ID: <001601c98529$dd0f71a0$04000005@pc> hello everyone,I have a working decmate3, working well with floppies of os278 made with putr (thanks) ,I'd like to have hardware documentation about that machine ,I found the vr101,the lk201,but nothing about the cpu box, also I'd like to find documentation about os278 that seems different from os8.thanks for your help Alain Nierveze 492 All?e Montesquieu 33290 Le Pian Medoc France web:www.radio-astronomie.com email:nierveze at radio-astronomie.com From chrise at pobox.com Mon Feb 2 07:52:43 2009 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 07:52:43 -0600 Subject: speaking of 3.5" floppies, is 720K R.I.P.? In-Reply-To: <498636BB.15917.791AE9C9@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20090201161135.GT26511@n0jcf.net> <498636BB.15917.791AE9C9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20090202135243.GU26511@n0jcf.net> On Sunday (02/01/2009 at 11:56PM -0800), Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1 Feb 2009 at 10:11, Chris Elmquist wrote: > > > What's particularly nasty is that I chose these drives, Samsung SFD-321B, > > because I had a recent datasheet that clearly showed they supported > > this mode-- until of course they arrived and the switch/sensor is not > > even installed! > > Chris, the OEM manual for the SFD-321B is online at: > > www.techtravels.org/amiga/SAMSUNG-SFD321B-070103.pdf > > I note that they do use pin 2 as a density select pin and the OPA and > OPB PCB jumpers to determine the operating mode. You might want to > play with this a bit to see if you can coax it into operating in 2D > mode. > > Whatever, please report back because I note that these drives are (1) > cheap and (2) have a provision to supply a READY signal instead of > DISK CHANGE. That could come in useful. yes... I studied the OPA and OPB jumpers, hooked them up, and no joy. The actual density selector switch or optical sensor is missing from the drives I received. So, there is no way for it to know that the low-density media has been installed. It needs this input along with the density select coming from PIN 2 on the interface to decide what mode to go into. If all the parts were there, then the PIN 2 would choose between 2.0 MB and 1.6 MB (raw) modes (and actually change the RPM to 360 when going to 1.6 MB mode) but that would only happen if a low-density disk could be detected. So, I think they have cheaped out on us with these particular drives. I mean, they are cheap to start with ($7 ea) but this appears to be an extreme situation. I think they can only do high density, 1.44MB format. I've also found a warning in the CatWeasle documentation that this drive is not compatible with it and a claim that they are high density only. Which, I think I have proven again. I'm now exploring both Sony MPF920 and Alps 635H drives... they look like possible candidates at about the same price point. Chris -- Chris Elmquist mailto:chrise at pobox.com From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Feb 2 09:30:41 2009 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 10:30:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: 720RPM 3.5" FDDs? In-Reply-To: <200902020825.16632.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <49862D88.20306@aurigae.demon.co.uk> <200902020401.XAA09417@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <200902020825.16632.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200902021534.KAA17569@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Well, except for disk makers. As far as I can tell, the only people >> in the computer world that use the SI meanings for those prefixes >> for bytes are disk makers' marketing departments, [...] > As someone else has noted, networking people have (as far as I can > tell) always taken Mbps and Kbps to mean 10^6 and 10^3, respectively, > bits per second. Ooo, that's true, datacomm speeds use the decimal versions. My bad. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Feb 2 12:15:06 2009 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 13:15:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: Seeking reverse-engineers - Apple II VisiCalc In-Reply-To: <4987145C.6070604@gmail.com> References: <200901281800.n0SI0AUu052577@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4980AB42.6010003@media.mit.edu> <6.2.3.4.2.20090129085638.05e74420@mail.threedee.com> <4981C9F6.5020100@gmail.com> <4981D7B1.9050804@iais.fraunhofer.de> <49850692.3060800@oldskool.org> <4985CF79.4010201@gmail.com> <200902020502.AAA11389@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4987145C.6070604@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200902021825.NAA18579@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> I back up live to a big backup disk at home, and I have that disk >> backed up live over my DSL line. > Are you just sending modified data each time? There is no "each time"; this is _live_ backup: writes are mirrored in, ideally, real time. (Obviously, there's a fast-producer-slow-consumer issue here, and dealing with it is where most of the hair comes from. The backup can fall behind, but as long as the aggregate write rate is low enough, it'll get caught up again.) Yes, it's sending just changes. > I suspect that isn't actually too bad - my "too slow" comment was > more a reflection on how awful sending the initial xGB of data would > be, and that'd put a lot of people off. Yes. I got stubborn and did the initial sync-up over the net instead of carrying a disk between locations; it took more than a month. (Would've been less except that I throttled it to avoid rendering my link useless for everything else for the duration.) >> I suspect that what's actually lacking is the software for it in a >> form easy enough to drop in that the masses can use it. > It'd be kind of fun to cook something up. I have it cooked up and in live use, for NetBSD. :-) > The majority of home users probably just have multiple GB of music > and images which don't ever really change anyway (and any protocol > could even include stuff like "this file was moved" just to speed > that particular case up a bit). My design works at the disk-block level, not the file level, so moving files is cheap to exactly the extent that it invovles only small amounts of writing to disk instead of copying all the data. It certainly could be done at the file level; it just means hooking in at a different layer and redesigning the wire protocol correspondingly. > But yeah, "drop in" is a bit difficult, at least if you want to > support Windows/OSX/Linux/*BSD... I personally have no interest in supporting Windows, though if someone else does and wants to be wire-compatible with my code I'll be happy to collaborate to the extent that a non-Windows person can. It's fairly easy to use my techniques in anything sufficiently open-source to add hooks into the disk drivers. (I've had someone suggest doing it as a stacked disk driver, a la cgd or ccd, but didn't think of that originally and haven't looked at doing it myself.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Feb 2 17:21:42 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2009 18:21:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: Any spare Corvus Concept hardware out there? In-Reply-To: <4986BF72.8030502@mail.msu.edu> References: <4986BF72.8030502@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Feb 2009, Josh Dersch wrote: > I assume the answer to the subject line is "no," but I figured I'd ask just > in case one of you has a stack of this stuff lying around somewhere :). > Picked up a Corvus Concept -- just the main CPU unit, no monitor, no > keyboard, no drives. It appears to work (it beeps when I turn it on!) but of > course lacking any other hardware it's a rather bulky doorstop. I'd like to > get it running, it's a cool 68k-based machine with a bit-mapped display and > Apple II (!!) compatible expansion slots. (Are there any other machines out > there that used the Apple II bus for expansion? Aside from Apple II-family > machines and clones, of course...) > > I suppose given enough time I could build a compatible monitor, hack together > a keyboard interface, and get it booting over OmniNet but somehow having the > original hardware would be nice too... I have a couple of Concepts here, but only a single monitor. Will have to check on keyboards, but I don't recall having spares on those off the top of my head. The Apple slots are unique as far as I know. I've had the Disk II controller working on my unit in the past to read Apple diskettes. There is a driver for it in the operating system distribution. Steve -- From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Feb 3 17:06:25 2009 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2009 18:06:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: Computer (museum) registers [was RE: Modules for LINC-8] In-Reply-To: <940182FF-2867-4120-B612-7AD89540DC37@ifi.uio.no> References: <4985793B.20721.76368FB2@cclist.sydex.com> <4986DA40.9060007@topinform.de> <4987E416.3090504@update.uu.se> <498891B9.6050106@update.uu.se> <4988A043.9000300@update.uu.se> <940182FF-2867-4120-B612-7AD89540DC37@ifi.uio.no> Message-ID: <200902032312.SAA02289@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > The professor who used the machine is quite tall, over 2 meters, at > least - and is described by many as "Norway's (largest/greatest) > scientist". One time in the 1970s, he and a colleague of comparable > stature were at a DECUS or DECworld or somesuch meeting. The > conferancier, when receiving them, asked - "Are all Norwegians this > tall!?". Immediately, his colleague replied - "No - we were the only > ones who could fit on the plane.". :-) I spent the second half of 2002 in Tromsoe (at Universitetet); one of the people there was, I think, two metres three. He told me of one winter when the snow accumulation reached something like 247cm - not quite the nice round two and a half metres people were sort of hoping for.... The line I remember from him was something like "I'm not used to walking through snow above my head". :) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From halarewich at gmail.com Wed Feb 4 13:33:41 2009 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 11:33:41 -0800 Subject: Anyone have a line on batteries for the NLS portable oscilloscope? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6d6501090902041133l70e10deeiab7f0325f632b0a7@mail.gmail.com> On 2/4/09, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Hi, All, > > The topic of replacement batteries came up in the Yahoo Group > for the RB5X, and someone posted a link for 2 volt 2.5 Amp-hour > cells (which are apparently used in an older version of the robot > than mine)... > > < > http://www.batteryweb.com/hawkersla-detail.cfm?Model=0810-0004&label=singlecell > > > > I saw the image and immediately thought of my NLS portable oscilloscope. > I'd love to refurb mine, but $45 in batteries is a little on the high > side for me. > Has anyone on the list replaced a set of this sort of battery, and does > anyone > know of a place that stocks them for a bit less? > > -ethan > heres a place that charges $6.35 per battery http://www.advancedbattery.com/itemdesc~product~enersys+0810-0004%3B+cyclon+d+cell,+2.5ah~ic~2v2.5t1jbu~eq~~tp~.htm multiples 6 $7.99 battery http://www.zbattery.com/Hawker-Cyclon-2V-2-5Ah-D-Size-Battery-0810-0004 another place $6.37 per battery http://www.bestlaptopbattery.com/b.cfm/Sealed-Lead-Acid/All-vendor/2-0-Volt-Batteries/0810-0004.htm From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Feb 4 13:44:02 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 14:44:02 -0500 Subject: Anyone have a line on batteries for the NLS portable oscilloscope? In-Reply-To: <6d6501090902041133l70e10deeiab7f0325f632b0a7@mail.gmail.com> References: <6d6501090902041133l70e10deeiab7f0325f632b0a7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 2:33 PM, Chris Halarewich wrote: > On 2/4/09, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> http://www.batteryweb.com/hawkersla-detail.cfm?Model=0810-0004&label=singlecell >> > >> Has anyone on the list replaced a set of this sort of battery, and does >> anyone know of a place that stocks them for a bit less? > > heres a place that charges $6.35 per battery > > http://www.advancedbattery.com/itemdesc~product~enersys+0810-0004%3B+cyclon+d+cell,+2.5ah~ic~2v2.5t1jbu~eq~~tp~.htm > > another place $6.37 per battery > > http://www.bestlaptopbattery.com/b.cfm/Sealed-Lead-Acid/All-vendor/2-0-Volt-Batteries/0810-0004.htm Beauty! Thanks! -ethan From halarewich at gmail.com Wed Feb 4 13:58:22 2009 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 11:58:22 -0800 Subject: speaking of 3.5" floppies, is 720K R.I.P.? In-Reply-To: <20090202135243.GU26511@n0jcf.net> References: <20090201161135.GT26511@n0jcf.net> <498636BB.15917.791AE9C9@cclist.sydex.com> <20090202135243.GU26511@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <6d6501090902041158g431fa07j28187a38689e093c@mail.gmail.com> you might try here http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16821103116 according 2 what i can find it will do 720 On 2/2/09, Chris Elmquist wrote: > > On Sunday (02/01/2009 at 11:56PM -0800), Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 1 Feb 2009 at 10:11, Chris Elmquist wrote: > > > > > What's particularly nasty is that I chose these drives, Samsung > SFD-321B, > > > because I had a recent datasheet that clearly showed they supported > > > this mode-- until of course they arrived and the switch/sensor is not > > > even installed! > > > > Chris, the OEM manual for the SFD-321B is online at: > > > > www.techtravels.org/amiga/SAMSUNG-SFD321B-070103.pdf > > > > I note that they do use pin 2 as a density select pin and the OPA and > > OPB PCB jumpers to determine the operating mode. You might want to > > play with this a bit to see if you can coax it into operating in 2D > > mode. > > > > Whatever, please report back because I note that these drives are (1) > > cheap and (2) have a provision to supply a READY signal instead of > > DISK CHANGE. That could come in useful. > > yes... I studied the OPA and OPB jumpers, hooked them up, and no joy. > The actual density selector switch or optical sensor is missing from > the drives I received. So, there is no way for it to know that the > low-density media has been installed. It needs this input along with > the density select coming from PIN 2 on the interface to decide what > mode to go into. If all the parts were there, then the PIN 2 would > choose between 2.0 MB and 1.6 MB (raw) modes (and actually change the > RPM to 360 when going to 1.6 MB mode) but that would only happen if a > low-density disk could be detected. > > So, I think they have cheaped out on us with these particular drives. > I mean, they are cheap to start with ($7 ea) but this appears to be an > extreme situation. I think they can only do high density, 1.44MB format. > > I've also found a warning in the CatWeasle documentation that this drive > is not compatible with it and a claim that they are high density only. > Which, I think I have proven again. > > I'm now exploring both Sony MPF920 and Alps 635H drives... they look > like possible candidates at about the same price point. > > Chris > > -- > Chris Elmquist > mailto:chrise at pobox.com > From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 4 13:59:22 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 14:59:22 -0500 Subject: Replacing failed powersupplies on qbus PDP-11s In-Reply-To: References: <200902011813.30068.pat@computer-refuge.org> <1233533395.1958.31.camel@elric> <4985CD86.24356.777FC019@cclist.sydex.com> <1233565552.1958.42.camel@elric> Message-ID: <6FC36519-19A5-4289-BC24-476900E14C02@neurotica.com> On Feb 2, 2009, at 3:57 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Again, that's all very well if you're doing something sufficiently >> complex and well-defined. If you are investigating the effect of >> putting what is basically a tuned circuit across the supply to a >> non-linear load, where a) it's simple enough to build, and b) it's >> not >> clearly defined enough to model, then you're far better just >> warming up >> the soldering iron and breaking out the 'scope. > > Until the boss sees that you screwed around in the lab for an hour or > two getting all the parts and building the test circuit, rather than > spend fifteen minutes at your workstation in your cube, just to get > the same results. Heh...I think you have those time estimates reversed. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 4 14:18:56 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 15:18:56 -0500 Subject: searching a metal box for 11/04 5.25in high In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0FE8F6EB-40F4-492D-98B3-ED407EE1C826@neurotica.com> On Feb 3, 2009, at 3:04 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > I noticed an 11/34 on eBay (# 200302612244) which reminded me > > of the 11/04 that I have in similar size / housing. Just as the > machine > > up for auction, I am missing the black metal box into which the unit > > is placed and mounted in a 19" rack. > > So ... if anybody has an empty box, I am very interested! Actually, I'm looking for one as well, for an 11/24, if anyone has one in the US. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Feb 4 14:19:15 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 15:19:15 -0500 Subject: Replacing failed powersupplies on qbus PDP-11s In-Reply-To: <6FC36519-19A5-4289-BC24-476900E14C02@neurotica.com> References: <200902011813.30068.pat@computer-refuge.org> <1233533395.1958.31.camel@elric> <4985CD86.24356.777FC019@cclist.sydex.com> <1233565552.1958.42.camel@elric> <6FC36519-19A5-4289-BC24-476900E14C02@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > Heh...I think you have those time estimates reversed. You have not dealt with a modern, barely stocked, corporate lab lately, have you? "Hey, I need a few 100 ohm resistors. Have any back there?" "Nope, try Digikey." -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Feb 4 14:20:56 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 15:20:56 -0500 Subject: PDP-7's In-Reply-To: <4989CDB6.5090008@bitsavers.org> References: <4989CDB6.5090008@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: >> I seem to recall that there was one in Australia > > oops, forgot that one. Max Burnett's Four machines - that is actually a pretty impressive survival rate. -- Will From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Feb 4 14:21:30 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 12:21:30 -0800 (PST) Subject: speaking of 3.5" floppies, is 720K R.I.P.? In-Reply-To: <20090202135243.GU26511@n0jcf.net> References: <20090201161135.GT26511@n0jcf.net> <498636BB.15917.791AE9C9@cclist.sydex.com> <20090202135243.GU26511@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20090204121716.I36782@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 2 Feb 2009, Chris Elmquist wrote: > yes... I studied the OPA and OPB jumpers, hooked them up, and no joy. > The actual density selector switch or optical sensor is missing from > the drives I received. So, there is no way for it to know that the > low-density media has been installed. It needs this input along with > the density select coming from PIN 2 on the interface to decide what > mode to go into. If all the parts were there, then the PIN 2 would > choose between 2.0 MB and 1.6 MB (raw) modes (and actually change the > RPM to 360 when going to 1.6 MB mode) but that would only happen if a > low-density disk could be detected. Wow. The problem is not the missing switch - that can obviously be jumpered. The first problem is that your drive does not HAVE a low density mode. When they removed the switch, they also changed it from "high v low" modes (2.0 v 1.0 raw) to "high density mode" v "NEC high density mode" (which would not use that switch anyway. > So, I think they have cheaped out on us with these particular drives. > I mean, they are cheap to start with ($7 ea) but this appears to be an > extreme situation. I think they can only do high density, 1.44MB format. and with some jumpering 1.3M Japanese high density Are Teac drives getting that hard to come by? From ak6dn at mindspring.com Wed Feb 4 14:26:03 2009 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 12:26:03 -0800 Subject: Simulation vs breadboarding (was Replacing failed powersupplies on qbus PDP-11s) In-Reply-To: <4989CB87.2020600@bitsavers.org> References: <4989CB87.2020600@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4989F9DB.7020204@mindspring.com> Al Kossow wrote: > > Until the boss sees that you screwed around in the lab for an hour or > > two getting all the parts and building the test circuit > > I doubt any company newer than 10 years old even has lab stock any more > to breadboard something with. > > I'd end up going to Haltek or Halted for parts, because Apple killed off > their parts stock room when the hardware group was moving from Valley > Green to > Infinite Loop. One day I went over to it and it was empty. They had > dumped > the whole thing into recycling because none of the hardware engineers > used > any of it anymore. So true. At Cisco our lab stock used to be Fry's, but when they went consumer it is now DigiKey for odds and ends (or else I raid my own stockroom at home). Very little 'benchtop' prototyping is done any more anyway. It is all breadboarded thru simulation until we build the final boards. Most of the circuit design we do can't be breadboarded anyway. It just would not work. My 2c. Don From evan at snarc.net Wed Feb 4 14:30:39 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 20:30:39 +0000 Subject: Straight 8 was PDP-7s Message-ID: <1708044391-1233779426-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-353229962-@bxe017.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> How about the straight 8 ... There were 1500 made; how many of these still survive? 1. We've got one here in MARCH / NJ. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Feb 4 14:44:39 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 15:44:39 -0500 Subject: Straight 8 was PDP-7s In-Reply-To: <1708044391-1233779426-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-353229962-@bxe017.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> References: <1708044391-1233779426-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-353229962-@bxe017.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 3:30 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > How about the straight 8 ... There were 1500 made; how many of these still survive? > > 1. We've got one here in MARCH / NJ. I have two in Ohio. -ethan From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Feb 4 14:54:26 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 15:54:26 -0500 Subject: Straight 8 was PDP-7s In-Reply-To: References: <1708044391-1233779426-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-353229962-@bxe017.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: > I have two in Ohio. I can think of about 20 or 25 in collections, public and private. There are likely at least as many I do not know about. Straight 8s are also small enough that there must be quite a few waiting in the woods. -- Will From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 4 15:27:42 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 16:27:42 -0500 Subject: Replacing failed powersupplies on qbus PDP-11s In-Reply-To: References: <200902011813.30068.pat@computer-refuge.org> <1233533395.1958.31.camel@elric> <4985CD86.24356.777FC019@cclist.sydex.com> <1233565552.1958.42.camel@elric> <6FC36519-19A5-4289-BC24-476900E14C02@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <9FA81EA4-D403-4AD6-AD45-68D8EDEFD530@neurotica.com> On Feb 4, 2009, at 3:19 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Heh...I think you have those time estimates reversed. > > You have not dealt with a modern, barely stocked, corporate lab > lately, have you? > > "Hey, I need a few 100 ohm resistors. Have any back there?" > "Nope, try Digikey." Ahh, suitly companies. Nope, I avoid them like the plague. *I* have a well-stocked lab. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Wed Feb 4 15:59:11 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 16:59:11 -0500 Subject: PDP-7's References: <4989CDB6.5090008@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <18826.4015.1690.191764@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "William" == William Donzelli writes: >>> I seem to recall that there was one in Australia >> oops, forgot that one. Max Burnett's William> Four machines - that is actually a pretty impressive William> survival rate. I remember seeing a PDP-7 at DECUS Amsterdam -- circa 1984, give or take a year or two. I don't think it was powered up, and I don't remember whose it was, nor do I know what happened to it. It was there as "the first UNIX machine". paul From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Feb 4 16:00:03 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 15:00:03 -0700 Subject: Straight 8 was PDP-7s In-Reply-To: References: <1708044391-1233779426-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-353229962-@bxe017.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <498A0FE3.5010407@jetnet.ab.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > I have two in Ohio. > > -ethan > I have seen one on the web somewhere. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Feb 4 16:06:54 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 16:06:54 -0600 Subject: Straight 8 was PDP-7s In-Reply-To: References: <1708044391-1233779426-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-353229962-@bxe017.bisx.prod.on.blackberry> Message-ID: <498A117E.2090008@gmail.com> William Donzelli wrote: > Straight 8s are also small enough that there must be quite a few waiting > in the woods. I shall head out back of our place with a metal detector as soon as the snow melts... ;) From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 4 15:01:02 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 13:01:02 -0800 Subject: speaking of 3.5" floppies, is 720K R.I.P.? In-Reply-To: <20090202135243.GU26511@n0jcf.net> References: <20090201161135.GT26511@n0jcf.net>, <498636BB.15917.791AE9C9@cclist.sydex.com>, <20090202135243.GU26511@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <4989918E.8795.86358218@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Feb 2009 at 7:52, Chris Elmquist wrote: > I've also found a warning in the CatWeasle documentation that this drive > is not compatible with it and a claim that they are high density only. > Which, I think I have proven again. Just curious, Chris--not that it'll do any good--but what's the chip used on these drives? Thanks, Chuck From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Wed Feb 4 18:01:37 2009 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 19:01:37 -0500 Subject: Old Software rights (was content rights) In-Reply-To: <669234.13686.qm@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <669234.13686.qm@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <498A2C61.30300@sbcglobal.net> Yes, I really am this far behind in my reading... So I apologize if I'm repeating something. Basically for a lot of US companies, if you write a program on their time, the company owns the copyright. I would assume it's not too different for universities. If they were written for use by the University, they probably own the copyright. Give them a call. Vernon Wright wrote: > Dan, > > My first comment is - watch your back! > > --- On Thu, 1/15/09, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > >> From: Dan Gahlinger >> Subject: Old Software rights (was content rights) >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Date: Thursday, January 15, 2009, 8:48 AM >> In an unrelated topic, >> >> I have a bunch of old programs from my University days, >> back in the late 70's, early 80's >> all Vax/VMS code, in various languages, etc. >> >> In those days we never put "(C)" or copyright >> notices on code. >> I'm just wondering if it's generally "ok" >> to release this code to the public? >> >> It's been 30 some years (longer than copyright would >> apply anyhow). >> I have searched for 20 years for some of the authors and >> never found anyone. >> >> 14 years ago I posted pieces of it, and said "if >> anyone objects to this, please contact me" >> and never got any response from anyone. > > Just an experience I recall observing. > > A guy was posting old games on USENET (don't recall which group), from the CP/M to early IBM PC era - games for which no owner could he could find, games that seemed to be abandoned. > > And then one day he announced that he would no longer be doing this, having been warned by his ISP and having received a cease and desist notice from a law firm. > >> The system and associated parts used for the development >> are long gone. > > Copyright is a can of worms, particularly with the obscenely long period that has been recently legislated. And there will always be someone willing to threaten action. > > Your examples seem safe, but I would be quick to be responsive to any request to "desist". > >> But another age old question, who has rights to code >> developed on the universities equipment? >> I know it's a common question these days, but >> "back in the day" such considerations never >> occurred, >> it was a different era. > > I well recall those days when software was free, included in the rental of the mainframe. Until unbundling and the "Program Product" which would rent or sell independently from the machine. IIRC, IBM's H Assembler for OS/360, first NEW product issued under the unbundling agreement, rented for $250/mo. in 1970 - which would be something more significant these days. > > Those days really ended around 1970. > > It's particularly annoying in the area of OS's for our classic computers, which remain under copyright to companies which may have gone belly-up, been absorbed and forgotten by their buyers, etc. Getting an old CP/M machine without the OS, and not having a legal source for it, makes 'criminals' of us all. > > And it's damned unfair! >> Everyone from that era has also vanished with the wind, I >> know, I've looked. >> >> So is it fairly safely abandoned? >> Another way to look at it - If it was your code, some small >> silly thing you wrote, would you care? > > Now that is a very GOOD question. There are a lot of things I've written that I would NEVER want seen - by ANYONE; guess they're in the class of 'silly'. > > Most of my serious software belongs to entities (alive or dead), under 'work for hire'. If it were distributed with their blessings, it wouldn't bother me; I've been paid - though never enough :) > > OTOH, I have several proprietary systems I have written for the use of my own business AND I WOULD EXPRESS SERIOUS ANNOYANCE if they were somehow obtained and distributed. But they have never been shared, and the likelihood of it happening seems small. > > That said, good fortune. > > Vern Wright > >> Dan. >> >> _________________________________________________________________ > > > > > -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ "From there to here, From here to there, Funny things are everywhere." --- Dr. Seuss From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Feb 4 19:11:00 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 18:11:00 -0700 Subject: Old Software rights (was content rights) In-Reply-To: <498A2C61.30300@sbcglobal.net> References: <669234.13686.qm@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <498A2C61.30300@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <498A3CA4.5090608@jetnet.ab.ca> >> Those days really ended around 1970. >> >> It's particularly annoying in the area of OS's for our classic >> computers, which remain under copyright to companies which may have >> gone belly-up, been absorbed and forgotten by their buyers, etc. >> Getting an old CP/M machine without the OS, and not having a legal >> source for it, makes 'criminals' of us all. >> And it's damned unfair! Well you still can get CP/M here... http://www.cadigital.com/cadigtl.htm Got milk ... um 8" drives still. >>> Everyone from that era has also vanished with the wind, I >>> know, I've looked. I am finding data sheets from that era hard to find too. Ben. PS.Is the Teletype Model 40 for $50 a good deal? I can't seem to find any info on the web about it. From robert.stek at gmail.com Wed Feb 4 16:56:32 2009 From: robert.stek at gmail.com (Bob Stek) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 15:56:32 -0700 Subject: Ideas for disposing of entire collection Message-ID: <498a1d25.1f15300a.6321.ffff9dda@mx.google.com> I have been mostly a lurker on the classiccmp lists for the last 10 years or so, though I have had individual correspondence with Jim Battle, Dave Dunfield, Rich Cini, Allison, and a few others ? I think they would vouch for me. I?ve been mostly an S-100 and CP/M guy, and I have probably used more impulse than sense in collecting micro stuff. My worst sin has been in putting off any systematic cataloging of my collection, and unfortunately I am not in a position to do it now. What I describe later on is from memory ? there are all sorts of miscellaneous things as well. The time has come for me to liquidate 90% of my collection. I won?t give it away ? my kids can deal with it after I?m dead! I started to sell it piece by piece last year and sold about $3,000-$4,000 worth on ebay (I know, boo-hiss! But that?s where I got most of it from.) I would rather not go this route again, except perhaps for my Altair or one of my IMSAI?s. I am willing to take a loss if I can dispose of this stuff in bulk, but want this to be as painless (for me) as possible. All of this stuff has been packed away in moving boxes for at least 4-5 years and I no longer want to have to take it out, photograph it, test, troubleshoot, write accurate descriptions, re-package for safe shipping, take it down to UPS or the P.O., deal with eBay, etc. So, questions for the group: 1) Does anyone here have an interest in acquiring my collection and is willing to come to Tucson (7 hour drive from San Diego) and pick it all up? 2) Does anyone here know of anyone ? a computer museum, a collector not on this list, anyone else of unsound mind ? who might be interested? 3) Any other ideas on eliminating hassles from individual sales and shipping? 4) Anyone want to take a guess at a value of the collection as a whole? a) if individually priced on ebay or b) Entire lot value It?s all packed well enough for storage or shipment in a van, but most would need to be re-packed for individual shipment. Part of the problem is that while individual boxes are generically labeled (i.e., 8? disks, BYTE mags, Votrax, monitor, etc.) I have no simple or easy way to put the appropriate docs and disks together with the hardware (nor the room to even attempt it). I think I did a fairly good job of rounding up original docs and boot disks (or good copies thereof) for most of the equipment. It would be a shame to let that effort go to waste if I eventually decide to go the ebay route after all; I would have to sell it all ala carte as I come across it. To give you an idea of some of the items (almost all with complete documentation, extra S-100 boards and boot software if appropriate, and most were known working when put in storage) here is a good part of the collection that I still have: 2 or 3 Processor Tech Sols (have extra foam pads for 1 keyboard restore) ? original docs Ithaca InterSystem S-100 ? original docs 2 IMSAI?s ? original docs 1 Altair 8800 ? some docs 2 NorthStar Horizons, 1 with HD ? original docs 1 CompuPro 8/16 ? original docs 1 Morrow Decision 1 with HD ? original docs (the big iron, not the MicroDecision) Many, many S-100 cards ? 8 and 16 bit CPUs, 4k thru 256k memory boards, Matrox video, disk controllers, almost all w/ original docs 1 Lobo System with HD ? original docs 3-4-5? Circuit Cellar SB-180 systems, 1 with HD ? original docs 2 NOS Xerox Z-80 64k systems w/ 5 ?? dual drives ? original docs 2-3 KayPro?s ? original docs Televideo 925 terminal Older memory chip tester Pro-Log M882 8080 analyzer Z-80 MicroProfessor Digital Group programs on cassette Many original ProcTech programs on cassette w/ original docs Multiple SS/DD and DS/DD 5.25? disk drives, some in cabinets w/ PS, most not Several monochrome composite monitors Collection of text-to-speech units, 3-4 Votrax and a large DEC-Talk plus a few others ? original docs BYTE magazine from, v1#1 through mid to late 80?s Many issues of Creative Comp, complete Kilobaud, S-100 Microsystems, early Dr. Dobb?s, Interface Age, Computer Shopper, Lifeboat Lifelines, etc. 2 dual 8? drive systems 2-3 Apple II Plus 2-3 Apple Z-80 cards Ohio Scientific Challenger (C4P? ? can?t remember, plus I may have sold this last year, not sure but I think it?s still here) w/ docs Franklin Ace 100 (the original one with the Apple II ROMs that led to landmark court decision allowing copyrighting of software) 1-2 early Macs Mac LC w/ MS-DOS card Cables ? lots and lots, from RS-232, Centronics parallel, to power cables to ribbon cables to . . . . Lots of original software and docs: boxed sets of Digital Research CP/M, CP/M-86, CP/M-Plus, CBASIC, Concurrent CP/M ? all from DR in slip cases, WordStar, Magic Wand, Palantir, dBASE II, Microsoft BASIC-80, baZic, Lifeboat Associates CP/MUG disks, lots of NorthStar format software, NOS Dysan 10-hole hard-sector disks, complete International NorthStar User?s Association newsletters and disks, complete original SOL Users Society newsletters, etc.) IBM XT TrackStar 6502 card for IBM Baby Blue Z-80 card for IBM IBM AT Central Point Match Point card, several Option boards . . . and this is just the stuff I remember. Bob Stek Saver of Lost Sols P.S. If I can?t sell it all in one swell foop, I MAY consider offers for individual pieces from list members, but I would REALLY like to sell everything at once. Please don?t ask for any particular item right now ? I?ll let everyone know if I do decide to do that later. From chrise at pobox.com Wed Feb 4 17:59:14 2009 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 17:59:14 -0600 Subject: speaking of 3.5" floppies, is 720K R.I.P.? In-Reply-To: <6d6501090902041158g431fa07j28187a38689e093c@mail.gmail.com> References: <20090201161135.GT26511@n0jcf.net> <498636BB.15917.791AE9C9@cclist.sydex.com> <20090202135243.GU26511@n0jcf.net> <6d6501090902041158g431fa07j28187a38689e093c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090204235914.GK3515@n0jcf.net> On Wednesday (02/04/2009 at 11:58AM -0800), Chris Halarewich wrote: > you might try here > http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16821103116 > according 2 what i can find it will do 720 Well, they CLAIM to do 720. I actually ordered the SAMSUNG units from Newegg, after studying the very datasheet for the drives and confirming they would do 720... only to receive them and find that the design is not what the datasheet claims. That's my sad story :-) So, I guess it's spin the wheel and see if Sony has or hasn't decided to leave the 14 picocents worth of parts off the thing to maximize the margin on that $7 product. Chris -- Chris Elmquist mailto:chrise at pobox.com From chrise at pobox.com Wed Feb 4 18:14:02 2009 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 18:14:02 -0600 Subject: speaking of 3.5" floppies, is 720K R.I.P.? In-Reply-To: <49873E18.4261.7D1F6F6C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <49873E18.4261.7D1F6F6C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20090205001402.GL3515@n0jcf.net> On Monday (02/02/2009 at 06:40PM -0800), Chuck Guzis wrote: > > The nice thing is that the same PIC setup can also simulate hard- > sectored diskettes. The PICs are rated to sink/source 25 ma on any > I/O pin, not to excees 125 ma for all pins. A little dodgy for 150 > ohm pullups (33 ma at 5v), but I've had no problems thus far. I have been trying to do this exact thing... simulate 10-hole hard sectored floppies with the 3.5" drive. I'm finding it much more difficult than I expected. It seems that the speed of these drives is not very constant. So, when I trigger off the real index pulse from the drive and then generate very accurately timed pulses simulating the 10 other holes, it appears that they are not lining up with the data some number of rotations later. The result is a high number of soft errors during read back. My simple plan was to just watch for the real index hole from the selected drive and then generate the synthetic ones back to the controller until the drive was deselected. I could see I had a timing problem which I initially blamed on the microcontroller's RC clock (I am using an ATMEL AVR instead of a PIC). So, I improved this in various increments, ending up with a +/- 50ppm osc can and at each increment of improving the stability of the clock, my soft errors INCREASED! I'm now reworking the whole design and I'm going to keep the soft sectored drive always selected, always motor on and continually watch the real index pulses and compute the instantaneous RPM. From that, I'll generate the pseudo index pulses which will hopefully better match the current speed of the drive. The pseudo pulses and all the other drive signals will be externally gated onto the floppy bus since I need to keep the emulating drive always active-- and I want to emulate two drives at the same time. Kind of a pain but I don't see how else to get there now. Any suggestions on what I am missing? Chris From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Feb 4 19:37:06 2009 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 20:37:06 -0500 Subject: Anyone have a line on batteries for the NLS portable oscilloscope? Message-ID: <0KEK003GVKFZ8L04@vms173017.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Anyone have a line on batteries for the NLS portable oscilloscope? > From: Ethan Dicks > Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 13:51:59 -0500 > To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org > >Hi, All, > >The topic of replacement batteries came up in the Yahoo Group >for the RB5X, and someone posted a link for 2 volt 2.5 Amp-hour >cells (which are apparently used in an older version of the robot >than mine)... > > > >I saw the image and immediately thought of my NLS portable oscilloscope. >I'd love to refurb mine, but $45 in batteries is a little on the high >side for me. >Has anyone on the list replaced a set of this sort of battery, and does anyone >know of a place that stocks them for a bit less? I've replaced the min my NLS MS-15 and MS215 portable scopes, I usually pay around 8-9$ each (it uses 3) for them new. Google "2V 2.5AH Gell cell" you get mroe than afew hits. Note any 6V gellcell that fits in the form factor (NLS has an area) will also work. I've found 6V/2.2AH Yusa and others that fit in mind and they can be cheaper usually under 15$. If your really game 4 nicads of the 1800-2200mah size fit there but require the charger side to be modded for constant current rather constant voltage. Allison > >-ethan From evan at snarc.net Thu Feb 5 02:23:59 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 03:23:59 -0500 Subject: Need a copy of an IRE article Message-ID: <001801c9876b$19816290$0301a8c0@evan> Can anyone assist me in getting a copy (pdf preferred) of this article: Proceedings of the IRE, Oct. 1953 (Vol. 41, Issue 10), pages 1388-1392. The article is called. "The Design of Logical OR-AND-OR Pyramids for Digital Computers" ... thanks! - Evan From sellam at vintagetech.com Thu Feb 5 03:51:07 2009 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 01:51:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Microdata Reality in Sandy, Utah Message-ID: There is a Microdata Reality in Sandy, Utah that needs a new home. This is a large and heavy early- to mid-1970s mini in a 6 foot cabinet. Please contact me directly if you're interested and I'll pass along the contact info. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From mike at brickfieldspark.org Thu Feb 5 03:53:13 2009 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 09:53:13 -0000 Subject: [personal] Re: Computer (museum) registers [was RE: Modules for LINC-8] References: <4985793B.20721.76368FB2@cclist.sydex.com><4986DA40.9060007@topinform.de><4987E416.3090504@update.uu.se><498891B9.6050106@update.uu.se><4988A043.9000300@update.uu.se> <940182FF-2867-4120-B612-7AD89540DC37@ifi.uio.no> Message-ID: <008601c98777$90112330$961ca8c0@mss.local> Tore, hi.. A great story, mirrors to an extent my experience with the UK goverments PDP-7 #41, as a young engineer given the manuals and told "work it out", fell in love with computers especially the 7. We built an interface between the 7 and a PDP-11, a bit like Max Burnett's hybrid. It's a pity your 7 is not working better, but at least it still "lives", and has not been sent to the dump, don't do that please. Best regards, Mike Hatch Web - www.soemtron.org Email - mike at soemtron.org Looking for a PDP-7 (some hope!) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tore Sinding Bekkedal" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 10:48 PM Subject: [personal] Re: Computer (museum) registers [was RE: Modules for LINC-8] > > On 3. feb.. 2009, at 20.51, Pontus wrote: > >> Rich Alderson wrote: >>> Where is there a register of PDP-7 systems? I know of only two, >>> personally. >>> >> Its been on this list before, here is the link: >> >> http://www.soemtron.org/pdp7.html >> >> Lets hope the two you know about are not on the list :) > > That PDP-7 is in Oslo. However, it is not in operable condition. > > Long story follows: > > The PDP-7 was my first real retrocomputing project. In retrospect, it was > probably a massively bad call for a first project! Before I began, I > didn't even know what a capacitor was. The machine was in the university > library in which I was hanging out. It was a better use of time than > attending class. Although my grades suffered, I never did really have > trouble justifying skipping a school FrontPage class for deciphering the > inner workings of a computer. :-) > > Before I touched anything, I took the maintenance and user manuals with > me to a week-long holiday at my family's summerhouse, and I still > remember the deep effect the F-77A service manual had on me. (now there's > a sentence you don't hear every day...) I'd been a computer geek before > this, but I had never quite understood computers past the level of "I > input some mnemonics, and then magic happens inside the chip". > > A few years later, I saw a video of Steve Wozniak explaining how he "fell > in love" with the PDP-8 as he read the manual. He exactly described my > own feelings. Although I had idly programmed computers since I was 12 > (Well, since age 9 if you count BASIC - but one doesn't, does one...) > this was the first computer I felt I could *understand*, and it made a > lasting impression on me and gave me a lasting fascination with > retrocomputing as a way of "understanding" computers and computer > engineering in a way that is simply not possible with the vastly more > capable but yet somehow less interesting modern systems. > > The PDP-7 documentation was "describing a world" which was immensely > fascinating to me. > > Anyway, back to the machine itself. Having read up on it, and consulted > with electronics engineers (funny how those seem to be abundant in a > CS/EE building, huh...) and also this mailing list, I found that the best > course of action was to reform the capacitors in the PSUs, and then test > the PSUs under a dummy load. The capacitors all held a charge > marvelously, and were surprisingly close to their labelled capacitance. > The PSUs were all within spec - not bad for a system that hadn't seen > power since 1977! > > When initially powered up the CPU was completely dead. I managed to > locate a few problems with individual components and swapping the boards > for working ones. (There was a cache of spare flip-chips - and I refused > to allow a PDP-7 to become my first soldering job!). One of my first > repairs, and the one that really got the system going, was swapping out a > B204 -- IIRC, the faulty board had an off-value resistor -- in the main > timing chain. > > By the time I was "done", the CPU was able to fetch, decode, and execute > arithmetic, conditional branch, and OPR instructions - and those were > just the ones I tested. However, when I STARTed the CPU, the system > looped at location 0. I quickly found out why: The physics department > had, to deal with an increase in I/O load, created their own Automatic > Priority Interrupt (The paper I read described it as "a poor man's API" - > I think it was submitted to DECUS). > > The professor who used the machine is quite tall, over 2 meters, at > least - and is described by many as "Norway's (largest/greatest) > scientist". One time in the 1970s, he and a colleague of comparable > stature were at a DECUS or DECworld or somesuch meeting. The > conferancier, when receiving them, asked - "Are all Norwegians this > tall!?". Immediately, his colleague replied - "No - we were the only ones > who could fit on the plane.". :-) > > The PMAPI was built out of 74-series circuitry. Of course, when the > system was decommissioned only a few years later, 74-series logic was > both bloody expensive and general-purpose, so those boards were removed. > As a result of this, the CPU always loops on an active-low IRQ from the > I/O rack. > > The absence of any I/O left me unable to test any of the other peripheral > devices. The paper tape reader would start when asked to by the CPU (The > binary load feature necessitated some direct glue between the controller > and the CPU), The Teletype would transmit correct codes as read by the > I/O rack status lamps. The TTY itself (a KSR33) had a missing codebar > reset bail, and eventually the H-bar broke (wow, it's been 4 years and I > still remember the name of the damned parts. The Teletype manual was also > a fascinating read.) > > The core memory could store and recall worst-case noise patterns entered > into the system by a program I wrote which I stepped through while > holding in "CONTINUE". > > Considering how inexperienced and unknowledgeable I was, I'm damned glad > I never managed to make anything catch fire, and as a bonus, I think I > really got quite far all things considered. > > The wall-like learning curve was very interesting to climb and I'm a > happier person for it. > > Regards, > -Tore :) > > > From mike at brickfieldspark.org Thu Feb 5 03:54:35 2009 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 09:54:35 -0000 Subject: [personal] **JUNK** RE: Computer (museum) registers [was RE: Modules for LINC-8] References: <4985793B.20721.76368FB2@cclist.sydex.com><4986DA40.9060007@topinform.de><4987E416.3090504@update.uu.se><498891B9.6050106@update.uu.se><4988A043.9000300@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <008c01c98777$c0fd8d30$961ca8c0@mss.local> Is the PDP-7 from U of Oregon still operational ?. Best regards, Mike Hatch Web - www.soemtron.org Email - mike at soemtron.org Looking for a PDP-7 (some hope!) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rich Alderson" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 12:16 AM Subject: [personal] **JUNK** RE: Computer (museum) registers [was RE: Modules for LINC-8] >> From: Pontus >> Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 11:52 AM > >> Rich Alderson wrote: > >>> Where is there a register of PDP-7 systems? I know of only two, >>> personally. > >> Its been on this list before, here is the link: > >> http://www.soemtron.org/pdp7.html > >>Lets hope the two you know about are not on the list :) > > Nope, Tore's and ours are on the list. > > When we disassembled the system in the High Energy Physics Lab at the > University of Oregon in June, 2006, it was still in running condition. > > > Rich Alderson > Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project > Vulcan, Inc. > 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 > Seattle, WA 98104 > > mailto:RichA at vulcan.com > (206) 342-2239 > (206) 465-2916 cell > > > > > From mike at brickfieldspark.org Thu Feb 5 04:13:46 2009 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 10:13:46 -0000 Subject: [personal] Re: PDP-7's References: <4989CDB6.5090008@bitsavers.org> <18826.4015.1690.191764@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <027601c9877a$6ed9d7e0$961ca8c0@mss.local> Rumours circulating the web had the possible 4th machine as the one in Australia and a recent press article listed Max Burnett as having that 4th machine in his collection. However the photo gallery that went with it did not include any of the PDP-7. Anybody know of any more info obout this?, of know of contact details for Max?, he apparently used to work for DEC Austrailia. Any information anyone finds, has, or comes across about the PDP-7 range of machines would be appreciated so that I can add it to - http://www.soemtron.org/pdp7.html. Many thanks for everybodys time, especially Bob Supnik who started me off with the service list. Mike Hatch Email - mike at soemtron.org Looking for a PDP-7 (some hope!) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Koning" To: Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 9:59 PM Subject: [personal] Re: PDP-7's >>>>>> "William" == William Donzelli writes: > > >>> I seem to recall that there was one in Australia > >> oops, forgot that one. Max Burnett's > > William> Four machines - that is actually a pretty impressive > William> survival rate. > > I remember seeing a PDP-7 at DECUS Amsterdam -- circa 1984, give or > take a year or two. I don't think it was powered up, and I don't > remember whose it was, nor do I know what happened to it. It was > there as "the first UNIX machine". > > paul > > > > From wmaddox at pacbell.net Thu Feb 5 06:42:46 2009 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 04:42:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Microdata 6000 and Printronix P-600 printer in Edison, NJ Message-ID: <378110.74086.qm@web82603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> There is a Microdata 6000 and a Printronix P-600 printer in Edison listed on eBay. He's also listed a Cipher tape drive, which is installed in the Microdata. The seller seems to want to get rid of these in very short order, and wants the stuff picked up tomorrow for an auction closing today. There are no bids, and I doubt he's going to get any. Anyone near Edison want to pick this stuff up for a steal? I have fond memories of the Printronix at CMU in the 80's, and hate to think he'll scrap it. --Bill Ebay Item #s 300291062623 300291065881 300291064691 http://cgi.ebay.com/Used-Microdata-6000-System-with-Cipher-Hi-Density-tape_W0QQitemZ300291062623QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item300291062623&_trksid=p3911.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318 http://cgi.ebay.com/Used-9900-Cipher-Hi-Density-tape-DRIVE-REEL-TO-REEL_W0QQitemZ300291064691QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item300291064691&_trksid=p3911.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318 http://cgi.ebay.com/Used-Printronix-P-600-600-LPM-Printer-Genicom-Tally_W0QQitemZ300291065881QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item300291065881&_trksid=p3911.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1205%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318 From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Feb 5 07:25:28 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 05:25:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: Microdata 6000 and Printronix P-600 printer in Edison, NJ In-Reply-To: <378110.74086.qm@web82603.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <340377.20221.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 2/5/09, William Maddox wrote: > There is a Microdata 6000 and a Printronix P-600 printer in > Edison > listed on eBay. He's also listed a Cipher tape drive, > which is > installed in the Microdata. I was looking at these again this morning. I would really hate that these get scrapped - I have the guys number and I am planning to call him in a bit to see what's going on. Unfortunately, there is no way I can go out there Friday - unless I take the day off from work. I'm also not that close, it's over a 3 hour drive. And while I love the Printronix P-600 as well (I'm still maintaining two of 'em for a customer!), and I find the concept of another, different mini very cool, I'm not sure I _need_ either one. I'm a bit short on space, and I still have to go pick up a big TI system sometime in th near future... But still - anyone out there willing to rescue thes guys? I'll call the guy in a couple hours and see if he's had any inquiries, and see if it's possible to pick it up on the weekend, but only if nobody else wants it. It's one of those things "yeah, I kinda want it, but I don't need it, and I really don't want to go out there to get it... but I don't want it to get scrapped either". -Ian From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Feb 5 09:02:04 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 07:02:04 -0800 Subject: speaking of 3.5" floppies, is 720K R.I.P.? In-Reply-To: <20090205001402.GL3515@n0jcf.net> References: <49873E18.4261.7D1F6F6C@cclist.sydex.com> <20090205001402.GL3515@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2009 18:14:02 -0600 > From: chrise at pobox.com > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > CC: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: speaking of 3.5" floppies, is 720K R.I.P.? > > On Monday (02/02/2009 at 06:40PM -0800), Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >> The nice thing is that the same PIC setup can also simulate hard- >> sectored diskettes. The PICs are rated to sink/source 25 ma on any >> I/O pin, not to excees 125 ma for all pins. A little dodgy for 150 >> ohm pullups (33 ma at 5v), but I've had no problems thus far. > > I have been trying to do this exact thing... simulate 10-hole hard > sectored floppies with the 3.5" drive. > > I'm finding it much more difficult than I expected. It seems that the > speed of these drives is not very constant. So, when I trigger off the > real index pulse from the drive and then generate very accurately timed > pulses simulating the 10 other holes, it appears that they are not lining > up with the data some number of rotations later. > > The result is a high number of soft errors during read back. > > My simple plan was to just watch for the real index hole from the selected > drive and then generate the synthetic ones back to the controller until > the drive was deselected. I could see I had a timing problem which I > initially blamed on the microcontroller's RC clock (I am using an ATMEL > AVR instead of a PIC). So, I improved this in various increments, > ending up with a +/- 50ppm osc can and at each increment of improving > the stability of the clock, my soft errors INCREASED! > > I'm now reworking the whole design and I'm going to keep the soft sectored > drive always selected, always motor on and continually watch the real > index pulses and compute the instantaneous RPM. From that, I'll generate > the pseudo index pulses which will hopefully better match the current > speed of the drive. The pseudo pulses and all the other drive signals > will be externally gated onto the floppy bus since I need to keep the > emulating drive always active-- and I want to emulate two drives at the > same time. Kind of a pain but I don't see how else to get there now. > > Any suggestions on what I am missing? > > Chris Hi Chris I was recently looking at my Teac drive's index pulse to see how it worked relative to the drive going ready ( the problem of trying to find a way to recreate the /Ready signal ). One thing I noticed was that the leading edge of the index pulse was as accurate as my scope could show but the trailing edge was all over the place. My thinking is that the drive is controlled by a servo loop. The leading edge is when a crystal clock says the pulse is suppose to start and the trailing edge is when the actual edge is detected. If one timed the length of time between the two edges, one would then know the corrective response of the loop. As an example, if the pulse was long, you'd keep a similar software wheel rotating that you apply a correction to by the amount the pulse was long. It would be this internal software generated wheel that you'd use to create the index pulses from. You need the code to watch the drive to determine the parameters of the control system, gain, dampening and intertia. If done this way, I suspect that one could get very close to the right index pulse spacing. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_howitworks_022009 From uban at ubanproductions.com Thu Feb 5 09:11:14 2009 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 09:11:14 -0600 Subject: Ideas for disposing of entire collection In-Reply-To: <498a1d25.1f15300a.6321.ffff9dda@mx.google.com> References: <498a1d25.1f15300a.6321.ffff9dda@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <498B0192.5050503@ubanproductions.com> Hi Bob, I'm sorry to see you bailing from your hobby, but can understand. I realize that you are looking to find a home for the whole collection, but if you have a Ferguson Big Board, I'm looking for a spare. --tnx --tom Bob Stek wrote: > I have been mostly a lurker on the classiccmp lists for the last 10 years or > so, though I have had individual correspondence with Jim Battle, Dave > Dunfield, Rich Cini, Allison, and a few others ? I think they would vouch > for me. I?ve been mostly an S-100 and CP/M guy, and I have probably used > more impulse than sense in collecting micro stuff. My worst sin has been in > putting off any systematic cataloging of my collection, and unfortunately I > am not in a position to do it now. What I describe later on is from memory > ? there are all sorts of miscellaneous things as well. > > > > The time has come for me to liquidate 90% of my collection. I won?t give it > away ? my kids can deal with it after I?m dead! I started to sell it piece > by piece last year and sold about $3,000-$4,000 worth on ebay (I know, > boo-hiss! But that?s where I got most of it from.) I would rather not go > this route again, except perhaps for my Altair or one of my IMSAI?s. I am > willing to take a loss if I can dispose of this stuff in bulk, but want this > to be as painless (for me) as possible. All of this stuff has been packed > away in moving boxes for at least 4-5 years and I no longer want to have to > take it out, photograph it, test, troubleshoot, write accurate descriptions, > re-package for safe shipping, take it down to UPS or the P.O., deal with > eBay, etc. > > > > So, questions for the group: > > > > 1) Does anyone here have an interest in acquiring my collection and is > willing to come to Tucson (7 hour drive from San Diego) and pick it all up? > > 2) Does anyone here know of anyone ? a computer museum, a collector not > on this list, anyone else of unsound mind ? who might be interested? > > 3) Any other ideas on eliminating hassles from individual sales and > shipping? > > 4) Anyone want to take a guess at a value of the collection as a whole? > a) if individually priced on ebay or b) Entire lot value > > > > It?s all packed well enough for storage or shipment in a van, but most would > need to be re-packed for individual shipment. Part of the problem is that > while individual boxes are generically labeled (i.e., 8? disks, BYTE mags, > Votrax, monitor, etc.) I have no simple or easy way to put the appropriate > docs and disks together with the hardware (nor the room to even attempt it). > I think I did a fairly good job of rounding up original docs and boot disks > (or good copies thereof) for most of the equipment. It would be a shame to > let that effort go to waste if I eventually decide to go the ebay route > after all; I would have to sell it all ala carte as I come across it. > > > > To give you an idea of some of the items (almost all with complete > documentation, extra S-100 boards and boot software if appropriate, and most > were known working when put in storage) here is a good part of the > collection that I still have: > > > > 2 or 3 Processor Tech Sols (have extra foam pads for 1 keyboard restore) ? > original docs > > Ithaca InterSystem S-100 ? original docs > > 2 IMSAI?s ? original docs > > 1 Altair 8800 ? some docs > > 2 NorthStar Horizons, 1 with HD ? original docs > > 1 CompuPro 8/16 ? original docs > > 1 Morrow Decision 1 with HD ? original docs (the big iron, not the > MicroDecision) > > Many, many S-100 cards ? 8 and 16 bit CPUs, 4k thru 256k memory boards, > Matrox video, disk controllers, almost all w/ original docs > > 1 Lobo System with HD ? original docs > > 3-4-5? Circuit Cellar SB-180 systems, 1 with HD ? original docs > > 2 NOS Xerox Z-80 64k systems w/ 5 ?? dual drives ? original docs > > 2-3 KayPro?s ? original docs > > Televideo 925 terminal > > Older memory chip tester > > Pro-Log M882 8080 analyzer > > Z-80 MicroProfessor > > Digital Group programs on cassette > > Many original ProcTech programs on cassette w/ original docs > > Multiple SS/DD and DS/DD 5.25? disk drives, some in cabinets w/ PS, most not > > Several monochrome composite monitors > > Collection of text-to-speech units, 3-4 Votrax and a large DEC-Talk plus a > few others ? original docs > > BYTE magazine from, v1#1 through mid to late 80?s > > Many issues of Creative Comp, complete Kilobaud, S-100 Microsystems, early > Dr. Dobb?s, Interface Age, Computer Shopper, Lifeboat Lifelines, etc. > > 2 dual 8? drive systems > > 2-3 Apple II Plus > > 2-3 Apple Z-80 cards > > Ohio Scientific Challenger (C4P? ? can?t remember, plus I may have sold this > last year, not sure but I think it?s still here) w/ docs > > Franklin Ace 100 (the original one with the Apple II ROMs that led to > landmark court decision allowing copyrighting of software) > > 1-2 early Macs > > Mac LC w/ MS-DOS card > > Cables ? lots and lots, from RS-232, Centronics parallel, to power cables to > ribbon cables to . . . . > > Lots of original software and docs: boxed sets of Digital Research CP/M, > CP/M-86, CP/M-Plus, CBASIC, Concurrent CP/M ? all from DR in slip cases, > WordStar, Magic Wand, Palantir, dBASE II, Microsoft BASIC-80, baZic, > Lifeboat Associates CP/MUG disks, lots of NorthStar format software, NOS > Dysan 10-hole hard-sector disks, complete International NorthStar User?s > Association newsletters and disks, complete original SOL Users Society > newsletters, etc.) > > IBM XT > > TrackStar 6502 card for IBM > > Baby Blue Z-80 card for IBM > > IBM AT > > Central Point Match Point card, several Option boards > > > > . . . and this is just the stuff I remember. > > > > > > Bob Stek > > Saver of Lost Sols > > > > P.S. If I can?t sell it all in one swell foop, I MAY consider offers for > individual pieces from list members, but I would REALLY like to sell > everything at once. Please don?t ask for any particular item right now ? > I?ll let everyone know if I do decide to do that later. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From dancohoe at oxford.net Thu Feb 5 09:08:34 2009 From: dancohoe at oxford.net (DanCohoe) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 10:08:34 -0500 Subject: Microdata 6000 and Printronix P-600 printer in Edison, NJ In-Reply-To: <340377.20221.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Trust me Ian, I don't need this thing either, just don't want to see it scrapped. If there is any way to not have to take it I'll be happy. I'm estimating at least $600 to get it back here. So if you have any possibility of getting it, that's the best solution. Dan > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Mr Ian Primus > Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 8:25 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Microdata 6000 and Printronix P-600 printer in Edison, NJ > > > --- On Thu, 2/5/09, William Maddox wrote: > > There is a Microdata 6000 and a Printronix P-600 printer in > > Edison > > listed on eBay. He's also listed a Cipher tape drive, > > which is > > installed in the Microdata. > > I was looking at these again this morning. I would really hate > that these get scrapped - I have the guys number and I am > planning to call him in a bit to see what's going on. > > Unfortunately, there is no way I can go out there Friday - unless > I take the day off from work. I'm also not that close, it's over > a 3 hour drive. And while I love the Printronix P-600 as well > (I'm still maintaining two of 'em for a customer!), and I find > the concept of another, different mini very cool, I'm not sure I > _need_ either one. > > I'm a bit short on space, and I still have to go pick up a big TI > system sometime in th near future... > > But still - anyone out there willing to rescue thes guys? I'll > call the guy in a couple hours and see if he's had any inquiries, > and see if it's possible to pick it up on the weekend, but only > if nobody else wants it. It's one of those things "yeah, I kinda > want it, but I don't need it, and I really don't want to go out > there to get it... but I don't want it to get scrapped either". > > -Ian From dancohoe at oxford.net Thu Feb 5 09:12:26 2009 From: dancohoe at oxford.net (DanCohoe) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 10:12:26 -0500 Subject: Microdata 6000 and Printronix P-600 printer in Edison, NJ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: oops, wrong message reply, but please, someone else step up to the plate for this. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of DanCohoe > Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 10:09 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Microdata 6000 and Printronix P-600 printer in Edison, NJ > > > Trust me Ian, I don't need this thing either, just don't want to see it > scrapped. If there is any way to not have to take it I'll be happy. I'm > estimating at least $600 to get it back here. So if you have any > possibility of getting it, that's the best solution. > > Dan > > From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Feb 5 09:36:26 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 07:36:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Microdata 6000 and Printronix P-600 printer in Edison, NJ In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <670997.32312.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Yeah, I mean, I honestly don't have the time, space or money right now to go dragging in another mini. I "want" it in the sense that it's an interesting machine. But I just don't think I can bring myself to spend an entire day retrieving something that I know will sit untouched for a long time - I've got a fair amount of stuff already - and barely enough time. -Ian --- On Thu, 2/5/09, DanCohoe wrote: > From: DanCohoe > Subject: RE: Microdata 6000 and Printronix P-600 printer in Edison, NJ > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Thursday, February 5, 2009, 10:12 AM > oops, wrong message reply, > > but please, someone else step up to the plate for this. > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of > DanCohoe > > Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 10:09 AM > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: RE: Microdata 6000 and Printronix P-600 > printer in Edison, NJ > > > > > > Trust me Ian, I don't need this thing either, just > don't want to see it > > scrapped. If there is any way to not have to take it > I'll be happy. I'm > > estimating at least $600 to get it back here. So if > you have any > > possibility of getting it, that's the best > solution. > > > > Dan > > > > From melamy at earthlink.net Thu Feb 5 10:21:52 2009 From: melamy at earthlink.net (melamy at earthlink.net) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 08:21:52 -0800 (GMT-08:00) Subject: speaking of 3.5 Message-ID: <8530437.1233850912918.JavaMail.root@mswamui-thinleaf.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I been "listening" to most of this thread so, forgive me if I already mention an idea that someone has already brought up... I seem to recollect that when I was working on hard sector floppy drives back in the Northstar Horizon system days, that the controller only wrote a block of data for each sector with basically nothing in between. It saw an index hole, wrote the block and then waited for the next index hole to write the next sector. If you want to recreate index holes for reading a hard sectored floppy, it seems you could detect the end of data from the previous sector and then generate a accurate index hole for the upcoming sector. Use the single index to reset the sector count if you are keeping track of that. Obviously, this is only a solution for reading the disk best regards, Steve Thatcher > >Hi Chris > I was recently looking at my Teac drive's index pulse to see how it >worked relative to the drive going ready ( the problem of trying to >find a way to recreate the /Ready signal ). > One thing I noticed was that the leading edge of the index pulse >was as accurate as my scope could show but the trailing edge was >all over the place. > My thinking is that the drive is controlled by a servo loop. >The leading edge is when a crystal clock says the pulse is suppose >to start and the trailing edge is when the actual edge is detected. >If one timed the length of time between the two edges, one would >then know the corrective response of the loop. > As an example, if the pulse was long, you'd keep a similar software >wheel rotating that you apply a correction to by the amount the >pulse was long. > It would be this internal software generated wheel that you'd use >to create the index pulses from. > You need the code to watch the drive to determine the parameters >of the control system, gain, dampening and intertia. > If done this way, I suspect that one could get very close to >the right index pulse spacing. >Dwight > > >_________________________________________________________________ >Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. >http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_howitworks_022009 From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Feb 5 11:01:33 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 09:01:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Microdata 6000 and Printronix P-600 printer in Edison, NJ In-Reply-To: <670997.32312.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <659641.92918.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Whelp, I'm a glutton for punishment. I talked to the seller and I'm going to try to schedule a trip out there this weekend. Heavy lifting is likely in my future. -Ian --- On Thu, 2/5/09, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > From: Mr Ian Primus > Subject: RE: Microdata 6000 and Printronix P-600 printer in Edison, NJ > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Thursday, February 5, 2009, 10:36 AM > Yeah, I mean, I honestly don't have the time, space or > money right now to go dragging in another mini. I > "want" it in the sense that it's an > interesting machine. But I just don't think I can bring > myself to spend an entire day retrieving something that I > know will sit untouched for a long time - I've got a > fair amount of stuff already - and barely enough time. > > -Ian > > > --- On Thu, 2/5/09, DanCohoe > wrote: > > > From: DanCohoe > > Subject: RE: Microdata 6000 and Printronix P-600 > printer in Edison, NJ > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic > Posts" > > Date: Thursday, February 5, 2009, 10:12 AM > > oops, wrong message reply, > > > > but please, someone else step up to the plate for > this. > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > > > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf > Of > > DanCohoe > > > Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 10:09 AM > > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic > Posts > > > Subject: RE: Microdata 6000 and Printronix P-600 > > printer in Edison, NJ > > > > > > > > > Trust me Ian, I don't need this thing either, > just > > don't want to see it > > > scrapped. If there is any way to not have to > take it > > I'll be happy. I'm > > > estimating at least $600 to get it back here. So > if > > you have any > > > possibility of getting it, that's the best > > solution. > > > > > > Dan > > > > > > From slawmaster at gmail.com Thu Feb 5 12:11:33 2009 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 13:11:33 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 power requirements Message-ID: <7d3530220902051011lf1c0b0fmd81a20ed7d4b5393@mail.gmail.com> I may soon be acquiring a PDP-11; I do not know the exact model. My question is, what kind of power supply might this require? It sounds like some can use 110V and others require 220? Are there models that I can just plug into my apartment's wall socket, or do I need to get an extension cord from the washer/dryer socket (which is not in use right now)? If anyone can summarize what models need what sort of power, I'd appreciate it. Thanks John -- "I've tried programming Ruby on Rails, following TechCrunch in my RSS reader, and drinking absinthe. It doesn't work. I'm going back to C, Hunter S. Thompson, and cheap whiskey." -- Ted Dziuba From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 5 12:11:40 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 10:11:40 -0800 Subject: speaking of 3.5" floppies, is 720K R.I.P.? In-Reply-To: <20090205001402.GL3515@n0jcf.net> References: , <49873E18.4261.7D1F6F6C@cclist.sydex.com>, <20090205001402.GL3515@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <498ABB5C.25826.8AC0C969@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Feb 2009 at 18:14, Chris Elmquist wrote: > I'm finding it much more difficult than I expected. It seems that the > speed of these drives is not very constant. So, when I trigger off the > real index pulse from the drive and then generate very accurately timed > pulses simulating the 10 other holes, it appears that they are not lining > up with the data some number of rotations later. I can't say much about any experience with 3.5" drives in this; I've been using 5.25" units and measuring the speed with every rotation. Given the low mass of 3.5" direct-drive motors and media, I can well imagine that speed variations are all over the place. I wonder if one can tap into the PLL used to control the motor--there should certainly be enough information there to determine short-term speed. However, after 5.25', I'm going to an all-electronic solution; basically a sampling plug-in replacement for a drive. I figure that rusty goo smeared on plastic cookies is not only going to be harder to find, but show a pronounced decline in quality as remaining production gets shoved out to the margins of the commercial world. I have customers who would probably kill to replace the floppy drives in their equipment. Cheers, Chuck > > The result is a high number of soft errors during read back. > > My simple plan was to just watch for the real index hole from the selected > drive and then generate the synthetic ones back to the controller until > the drive was deselected. I could see I had a timing problem which I > initially blamed on the microcontroller's RC clock (I am using an ATMEL > AVR instead of a PIC). So, I improved this in various increments, > ending up with a +/- 50ppm osc can and at each increment of improving > the stability of the clock, my soft errors INCREASED! > > I'm now reworking the whole design and I'm going to keep the soft sectored > drive always selected, always motor on and continually watch the real > index pulses and compute the instantaneous RPM. From that, I'll generate > the pseudo index pulses which will hopefully better match the current > speed of the drive. The pseudo pulses and all the other drive signals > will be externally gated onto the floppy bus since I need to keep the > emulating drive always active-- and I want to emulate two drives at the > same time. Kind of a pain but I don't see how else to get there now. > > Any suggestions on what I am missing? > > Chris > From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Feb 5 12:37:04 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 10:37:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP-11 power requirements In-Reply-To: <7d3530220902051011lf1c0b0fmd81a20ed7d4b5393@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <25023.35538.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 2/5/09, John Floren wrote: > I may soon be acquiring a PDP-11; I do not know the exact > model. My > question is, what kind of power supply might this require? > It sounds > like some can use 110V and others require 220? Are there > models that I > can just plug into my apartment's wall socket, or do I > need to get an > extension cord from the washer/dryer socket (which is not > in use right > now)? > > If anyone can summarize what models need what sort of > power, I'd appreciate it. While I don't have an exhaustive list, I can say that most of the later PDP-11's will readily plug into a standard 110v wall socket, and draw about as much power as a fairly hefty modern PC. This would include the 11/73, 11/83, 11/84, 11/05, 11/23, 11/23+, and a lot of others - basically all the Q-bus and late Unibus boxen. The only thing that might get you into trouble would be something like an 11/70, but those are pretty rare. Peripherals, on the other hand, will vary. If it's got a couple hefty disks with it, it might draw a lot more. A couple large SMD disks can blow a 15a breaker if you spin them all up at once. By and large, the majority of the PDP-11's you are likely to come across should be set for standard 110v - no funny plugs or special power. Some machines were configured for 220, either for convenience of installation or something else - but I've not seen one in person. Now Vaxen, on the other hand, are a different story. And Primes. But I wouldn't worry about being able to power a PDP-11 unless it's a very old or very large model (like the 11/70), or has a whole pile of big peripherals. -Ian From slawmaster at gmail.com Thu Feb 5 12:41:59 2009 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 13:41:59 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 power requirements In-Reply-To: <25023.35538.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <7d3530220902051011lf1c0b0fmd81a20ed7d4b5393@mail.gmail.com> <25023.35538.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7d3530220902051041ve33efc5t5518c615ead8d785@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 1:37 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > --- On Thu, 2/5/09, John Floren wrote: > >> I may soon be acquiring a PDP-11; I do not know the exact >> model. My >> question is, what kind of power supply might this require? >> It sounds >> like some can use 110V and others require 220? Are there >> models that I >> can just plug into my apartment's wall socket, or do I >> need to get an >> extension cord from the washer/dryer socket (which is not >> in use right >> now)? >> >> If anyone can summarize what models need what sort of >> power, I'd appreciate it. > > While I don't have an exhaustive list, I can say that most of the later PDP-11's will readily plug into a standard 110v wall socket, and draw about as much power as a fairly hefty modern PC. This would include the 11/73, 11/83, 11/84, 11/05, 11/23, 11/23+, and a lot of others - basically all the Q-bus and late Unibus boxen. The only thing that might get you into trouble would be something like an 11/70, but those are pretty rare. > > Peripherals, on the other hand, will vary. If it's got a couple hefty disks with it, it might draw a lot more. A couple large SMD disks can blow a 15a breaker if you spin them all up at once. > > By and large, the majority of the PDP-11's you are likely to come across should be set for standard 110v - no funny plugs or special power. Some machines were configured for 220, either for convenience of installation or something else - but I've not seen one in person. > > Now Vaxen, on the other hand, are a different story. And Primes. But I wouldn't worry about being able to power a PDP-11 unless it's a very old or very large model (like the 11/70), or has a whole pile of big peripherals. > > -Ian > Thank you! Very informative. Since the machine was described as being about a half-rack and having a CPU module 8-10" high, I don't think it's a 70. John -- "I've tried programming Ruby on Rails, following TechCrunch in my RSS reader, and drinking absinthe. It doesn't work. I'm going back to C, Hunter S. Thompson, and cheap whiskey." -- Ted Dziuba From tiggerlasv at aim.com Thu Feb 5 12:47:08 2009 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 13:47:08 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 power requirements Message-ID: <8CB55D94821FC83-4E8-F7F@Webmail-mg08.sim.aol.com> I can't speak towards the older, larger Unibus models, such as the 11/45, 11/55, 11/60, and 11/70. However, these models generally had a standard 115volt line cord: 11/02 11/03 11/23 11/23+ 11/24 11/34 11/34a 11/44 11/53 11/73 11/83 11/84 11/93 11/94 (Sorry in advance, if I left anyone's model off the list.) ;-) If it's in a rack, it MAY have a power distribution module at the base, with a 20-amp or 30-amp power cord, but in most (if not all) cases, the individual chassis inside the rack will have standard 115volt line cords that plug into it. T From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Feb 5 13:22:42 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 11:22:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP-11 power requirements In-Reply-To: <7d3530220902051041ve33efc5t5518c615ead8d785@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <874048.17132.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 2/5/09, John Floren wrote: > Thank you! Very informative. > > Since the machine was described as being about a half-rack > and having > a CPU module 8-10" high, I don't think it's a > 70. > It's probably an 11/73 or an 11/23, those were pretty common in small configurations. I have no problem running my 11/73, with 1/2" Cipher tape drive and Fujitsu Eagle SMD disk drive off a regular wall socket on a circuit shared with other things. -Ian From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Feb 5 13:28:20 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 14:28:20 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 power requirements In-Reply-To: <8CB55D94821FC83-4E8-F7F@Webmail-mg08.sim.aol.com> References: <8CB55D94821FC83-4E8-F7F@Webmail-mg08.sim.aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 1:47 PM, wrote: > > > I can't speak towards the older, larger Unibus models, > such as the 11/45, 11/55, 11/60, and 11/70. > > However, these models generally had a standard 115volt line cord: > > > 11/02 11/03 11/23 11/23+ 11/24 > 11/34 11/34a 11/44 11/53 11/73 > 11/83 11/84 11/93 11/94 > > If it's in a rack, it MAY have a power distribution module > at the base, with a 20-amp or 30-amp power cord, but > in most (if not all) cases, the individual chassis inside the rack > will have standard 115volt line cords that plug into it. My Unibus machines are racked, not loose, but I _thought_ that the 11/44 and perhaps the 11/24 had a 20A 115V plug (i.e. -- | vs | | ). Mine go into a power distribution box at the bottom of the rack and I haven't unplugged them in a long time, but that's what I recall. Little stuff like the 11/34 and 11/04 in BA-11s use "standard" US 15A 110V plugs, though, as would anything in a BA23 (Qbus, large and small). I don't know anything about the newer stuff after the 11/73, though. -ethan From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Feb 5 13:45:27 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 11:45:27 -0800 Subject: ISO older PROMICE manuals Message-ID: <498B41D7.1030708@bitsavers.org> Does anyone have copies of the various revisions of the Grammar Engine PROMICE? I have a manual for a really early version of the device, and have a few of them of various vintages made in the 90's which neither match my manual, or the current versions. From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Feb 5 13:52:02 2009 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 13:52:02 -0600 Subject: Ideas for disposing of entire collection In-Reply-To: <498a1d25.1f15300a.6321.ffff9dda@mx.google.com> References: <498a1d25.1f15300a.6321.ffff9dda@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <498B4362.4000607@oldskool.org> Bob Stek wrote: > Central Point Match Point card, several Option boards I've never heard of the "Central Point Match Point card" -- what is this and what was it used for? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Feb 5 13:59:59 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 14:59:59 -0500 Subject: ISO older PROMICE manuals In-Reply-To: <498B41D7.1030708@bitsavers.org> References: <498B41D7.1030708@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 2:45 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > Does anyone have copies of the various revisions of the Grammar Engine > PROMICE? I have a manual for a really early version of the device, and > have a few of them of various vintages made in the 90's which neither > match my manual, or the current versions. Yes. I have a couple of PROMice units (one c. 2003, one much older) and a ROMulator. Grammar Engine is here in Columbus (in a suburb, really), and I've known Arvind Rana for 25 years (he was the designer of the original model Software Results Corp. COMBOARD, as a bit of trivia). Let me know what model you have and I'll dig out my old box when I can get to the place where it's at. I should have source for the VMS versions of the software close at hand, too. We used G-E's products for late COMBOARD firmware development and traded favors back and forth all the time (like providing space and time on the VAX so G-E could maintain a VMS version of the code). -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 5 14:10:32 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 12:10:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ideas for disposing of entire collection In-Reply-To: <498B4362.4000607@oldskool.org> References: <498a1d25.1f15300a.6321.ffff9dda@mx.google.com> <498B4362.4000607@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20090205120953.X97666@shell.lmi.net> > > Central Point Match Point card, several Option boards > > I've never heard of the "Central Point Match Point card" -- what is this > and what was it used for? "Match Point" was from MicroSolutions From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Feb 5 14:42:36 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 20:42:36 +0000 Subject: speaking of 3.5 In-Reply-To: <8530437.1233850912918.JavaMail.root@mswamui-thinleaf.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <8530437.1233850912918.JavaMail.root@mswamui-thinleaf.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <498B4F3C.8070802@philpem.me.uk> melamy at earthlink.net wrote: > I seem to recollect that when I was working on hard sector floppy drives > back in the Northstar Horizon system days, that the controller only wrote a > block of data for each sector with basically nothing in between. It saw an > index hole, wrote the block and then waited for the next index hole to write > the next sector. If you want to recreate index holes for reading a hard > sectored floppy, it seems you could detect the end of data from the previous > sector and then generate a accurate index hole for the upcoming sector. Use > the single index to reset the sector count if you are keeping track of that. If I was going to do this, I'd use a PLL of some description, rigged up as a frequency multiplier. Your typical 3.5" drive spins at either 300 or 360 RPM. I'm going to assume 300RPM for the following, because it makes the maths easier... 300RPM is 5 rotations per second. Say you want to emulate a disc with 20 sectors. 20*5 = 100Hz But you also need to generate the track index pulse half-way between the "last" and "first" sector index pulses. So design the PLL to generate 200Hz from the 5Hz index signal. Add a flip-flop, a counter, and a few gates. The FF toggles at 200Hz, producing a 100Hz output. That's the index signal without the track-marker. Use that to clock the counter, and rig some logic to reset the counter when it counts up to 20. Also, when the value of the counter is between 19 and 20, gate the 200Hz clock through to the output. OR that with the 100Hz output and invert to taste. Use a one-shot to clean up the trailing edge of the pulse if you deem it necessary. Probably easier with a CPLD, but just as doable with a small-ish board of TTL (the latter being FAR easier to fix when it breaks). I'd be a bit worried about timing jitter, though... with a reference clock as slow as 5Hz, the PLL is probably going to take a while to reliably lock onto the index signal. Might be an interesting rainy-afternoon project for someone, but not me. The disc analyser (half-done, third redesign) is eating up all my spare time as it is. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From sethm at loomcom.com Thu Feb 5 14:49:03 2009 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 12:49:03 -0800 Subject: Ideas for disposing of entire collection In-Reply-To: <498a1d25.1f15300a.6321.ffff9dda@mx.google.com> References: <498a1d25.1f15300a.6321.ffff9dda@mx.google.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 4, 2009 at 2:56 PM, Bob Stek wrote: > The time has come for me to liquidate 90% of my collection. > [... *snip* ...] You certainly have a wonderful collection, worth quite a lot of money! I'm sorry to see you giving it up too, but I can definitely understand. Selling it to collectors is a hell of a lot better than throwing it away. One option may be hiring one of the more "professional" sellers on this list to do the work of parting out the entire lot for you at auction, and taking a percentage of the revenue as payment. Maybe someone like Sellam Ismail, who has run auctions in the past? -Seth From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Feb 5 15:11:34 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 13:11:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ideas for disposing of entire collection In-Reply-To: from Seth Morabito at "Feb 5, 9 12:49:03 pm" Message-ID: <200902052111.n15LBY63019398@floodgap.com> > One option may be hiring one of the more "professional" sellers on > this list to do the work of parting out the entire lot for you at > auction, and taking a percentage of the revenue as payment. Maybe > someone like Sellam Ismail, who has run auctions in the past? I heartily second such an idea. I would dearly love a Sol or two for my collection, but I certainly couldn't house the whole shebang. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The only thing to fear is fearlessness -- R. E. M. ------------------------- From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Thu Feb 5 15:19:08 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 16:19:08 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 power requirements References: <8CB55D94821FC83-4E8-F7F@Webmail-mg08.sim.aol.com> Message-ID: <18827.22476.925043.380171@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Ethan" == Ethan Dicks writes: Ethan> On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 1:47 PM, wrote: >> >> >> I can't speak towards the older, larger Unibus models, such as the >> 11/45, 11/55, 11/60, and 11/70. >> >> However, these models generally had a standard 115volt line cord: >> >> >> 11/02 11/03 11/23 11/23+ 11/24 11/34 11/34a 11/44 11/53 11/73 >> 11/83 11/84 11/93 11/94 >> >> If it's in a rack, it MAY have a power distribution module at the >> base, with a 20-amp or 30-amp power cord, but in most (if not all) >> cases, the individual chassis inside the rack will have standard >> 115volt line cords that plug into it. Ethan> My Unibus machines are racked, not loose, but I _thought_ that Ethan> the 11/44 and perhaps the 11/24 had a 20A 115V plug (i.e. -- Ethan> | vs | | ). Mine go into a power distribution box at the Ethan> bottom of the rack and I haven't unplugged them in a long Ethan> time, but that's what I recall. If the particular config isn't too powerhungry you could replace the plug and plug it into a 15 amp circuit. paul From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 5 14:05:03 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 12:05:03 -0800 Subject: Ideas for disposing of entire collection In-Reply-To: <498B4362.4000607@oldskool.org> References: <498a1d25.1f15300a.6321.ffff9dda@mx.google.com>, <498B4362.4000607@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <498AD5EF.2965.8B28901F@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Feb 2009 at 13:52, Jim Leonard wrote: > Bob Stek wrote: > > Central Point Match Point card, several Option boards I believe it was the "Microsolutions Match Point" card--at least that's what my box and card say. Used to read and write Apple II diskettes. Good pretty much only in a PC or slow AT. ISTR it also handles one variety of North Star floppy. Not a very common card. Cheers, Chuck From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Feb 5 15:23:44 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 15:23:44 -0600 Subject: Ideas for disposing of entire collection In-Reply-To: <498a1d25.1f15300a.6321.ffff9dda@mx.google.com> References: <498a1d25.1f15300a.6321.ffff9dda@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <498B58E0.3080408@pacbell.net> Bob Stek wrote: ... > The time has come for me to liquidate 90% of my collection. I won?t give it > away ? my kids can deal with it after I?m dead! I started to sell it piece > by piece last year and sold about $3,000-$4,000 worth on ebay (I know, > boo-hiss! But that?s where I got most of it from.) I would rather not go > this route again, except perhaps for my Altair or one of my IMSAI?s. I am > willing to take a loss if I can dispose of this stuff in bulk, but want this > to be as painless (for me) as possible. All of this stuff has been packed > away in moving boxes for at least 4-5 years and I no longer want to have to > take it out, photograph it, test, troubleshoot, write accurate descriptions, > re-package for safe shipping, take it down to UPS or the P.O., deal with > eBay, etc. Hi, Bob! I wanted to point out that back in 1999, when I started collecting, the first machine I obtained was a Sol-20. Very little was available about it on the internet, and that is why I started what became www.sol20.org -- as a magnet to draw out more information. Bob was one of my first benefactors, sending me copies of many docs to get me going, and providing other items for the collection/website in the following years. I'll testify that Bob is of utmost trustworthiness. Bob, your wishes are contradictory -- you want it to be easy while maximizing profit. You may get lucky and find someone who wants the whole thing at a fair price, but don't count on it. To make it as easy for you as possible, give it away for local pickup. I did that for many of the heavy pieces in my collection and had no problem finding takers. Some of the smaller, easier to pack and ship things I sold on ebay. Even though I'm sure I could have made at least $2000 on ebay from what I gave away, I gained more than $2000 worth of time and sanity. And I've had no regrets. The few things I've kept I still don't have enough time for. :-) Probably the next best choice is to bring it to a professional ebay seller. They are likely to not know squat about your items, so it would be best if you spent some amount of time writing not more than a one paragraph description of each major item, and instructing them on what items make groups. You will get less than if you had done everything yourself, but you'll make way more than if you give it away. Good luck! From drb at msu.edu Thu Feb 5 15:24:48 2009 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 16:24:48 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 power requirements In-Reply-To: (Your message of Thu, 05 Feb 2009 10:37:04 PST.) <25023.35538.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <25023.35538.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200902052124.n15LOmBm012745@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Peripherals, on the other hand, will vary. If it's got a couple hefty > disks with it, it might draw a lot more. A couple large SMD disks can > blow a 15a breaker if you spin them all up at once. IIRC, an RA81 disk has an inrush spec of 80 amps for a time period measured in seconds. Ok, so you don't want one of those anyway. :) De From ajp166 at verizon.net Thu Feb 5 15:24:32 2009 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 16:24:32 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 power requirements In-Reply-To: References: <8CB55D94821FC83-4E8-F7F@Webmail-mg08.sim.aol.com> Message-ID: <498B5910.6050901@verizon.net> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 1:47 PM, wrote: > >> I can't speak towards the older, larger Unibus models, >> such as the 11/45, 11/55, 11/60, and 11/70. >> >> However, these models generally had a standard 115volt line cord: >> >> >> 11/02 11/03 11/23 11/23+ 11/24 >> 11/34 11/34a 11/44 11/53 11/73 >> 11/83 11/84 11/93 11/94 >> >> If it's in a rack, it MAY have a power distribution module >> at the base, with a 20-amp or 30-amp power cord, but >> in most (if not all) cases, the individual chassis inside the rack >> will have standard 115volt line cords that plug into it. >> > > My Unibus machines are racked, not loose, but I _thought_ that the > 11/44 and perhaps the 11/24 had a 20A 115V plug (i.e. -- | vs | > | ). Mine go into a power distribution box at the bottom of the rack > and I haven't unplugged them in a long time, but that's what I recall. > > Little stuff like the 11/34 and 11/04 in BA-11s use "standard" US 15A > 110V plugs, though, as would anything in a BA23 (Qbus, large and > small). I don't know anything about the newer stuff after the 11/73, > though. > > Anything in a BA11, BA23, BA123, BA213 are 110V at 15a or 220-240 at 7A requirement though most had cord sets for local power. for USA that meant 15A outlet. Most all Qbus fits that (exception was a 48V DC flavor for telco). The larger set of PDP11 were 15A or could run on 15a (plug change) as only the monsters drew full requirement. I ran a 11/730 two cab (730, RA81 and two RL02) on 15A in the lab for years. Even though the book says 30A outlet. Allison > -ethan > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Feb 5 15:31:43 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 16:31:43 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 power requirements In-Reply-To: <18827.22476.925043.380171@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <8CB55D94821FC83-4E8-F7F@Webmail-mg08.sim.aol.com> <18827.22476.925043.380171@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 4:19 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >>>>>> "Ethan" == Ethan Dicks writes: > Ethan> My Unibus machines are racked, not loose, but I _thought_ that > Ethan> the 11/44 and perhaps the 11/24 had a 20A 115V plug (i.e. -- > Ethan> | vs | | ). Mine go into a power distribution box at the > Ethan> bottom of the rack and I haven't unplugged them in a long > Ethan> time, but that's what I recall. > > If the particular config isn't too powerhungry you could replace the > plug and plug it into a 15 amp circuit. One could probably get away with that, but personally I'd prefer a 20A circuit - the outlets are only a few bucks, but what might cost you is the heavier wiring (12/2?) between the panel and the outlet. Thinking further, I'm not as sure the 11/44 has a 20A plug, but I'm more certain that the BA32 box that holds the CPU for my VAX8200 _is_ 20A. I am not totally certain because I just slapped a 30A Hubbel twist outlet on the side of my breaker box and swapped out the breakers for the stove (I have a gas stove) for a pair of 110V breakers - one powers the VAX. Since the wire run is from the breaker to 6" away, there wasn't a lot of expense for heavy gauge wire. I've since used that 30A outlet for an Alpha machine (medium sized, one of the Futurebus+ models) as well as the 8200. It's rather handy to have in the basement. It certainly would power any of the smaller PDP-11s I have including a disk or two. Right now, my hungriest disks are an RA81 and a Fuji Eagle (but only the RA81 is in that basement) I spin up the RA81 first, let it settle, _then_ power on the VAX. I'd love to find a VAXBI SCSI card, but such things were not cheap in the day and I can't imagine they sold in very great numbers. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Feb 5 15:33:13 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 16:33:13 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 power requirements In-Reply-To: <200902052124.n15LOmBm012745@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <25023.35538.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200902052124.n15LOmBm012745@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 4:24 PM, Dennis Boone wrote: > > Peripherals, on the other hand, will vary. If it's got a couple hefty > > disks with it, it might draw a lot more. A couple large SMD disks can > > blow a 15a breaker if you spin them all up at once. > > IIRC, an RA81 disk has an inrush spec of 80 amps for a time period > measured in seconds. > > Ok, so you don't want one of those anyway. :) I have one of those and it doesn't trip a 30A breaker by itself. If I have the VAX on (same PDU), I think I have to be careful about spinning down the drive. -ethan From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Feb 5 15:35:04 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 13:35:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP-11 power requirements In-Reply-To: <200902052124.n15LOmBm012745@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <118599.98966.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 2/5/09, Dennis Boone wrote: > > Peripherals, on the other hand, will vary. If it's > got a couple hefty > > disks with it, it might draw a lot more. A couple > large SMD disks can > > blow a 15a breaker if you spin them all up at once. > > IIRC, an RA81 disk has an inrush spec of 80 amps for a time > period > measured in seconds. > > Ok, so you don't want one of those anyway. :) Hehe... The RA90 disks I use on my Vax 3900 are somewhat similar. I can only run one at a time on the circuit I've got the thing hooked to. And I have to be real careful when I spin it up, to ensure that the lights and the TV set are both turned off. And even then, sometimes the thing will run for an hour and then *fump* whirrrrr........ as everything in the room is plunged into blackness. But, then again, I've got a lot of other junk on that circuit... -Ian From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Feb 5 15:44:07 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 16:44:07 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 power requirements In-Reply-To: <200902052124.n15LOmBm012745@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <25023.35538.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200902052124.n15LOmBm012745@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <200902051644.07668.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 05 February 2009, Dennis Boone wrote: > > Peripherals, on the other hand, will vary. If it's got a couple > > hefty disks with it, it might draw a lot more. A couple large SMD > > disks can blow a 15a breaker if you spin them all up at once. > > IIRC, an RA81 disk has an inrush spec of 80 amps for a time period > measured in seconds. >From measuring the start-up current of an RA82, I don't quite believe that, unless it's 80 amps for less than 1/2 second or so... which it could be. I think I measured a maximum of 30-40A off of the RA82, but that was with a digital (clamp-on) current meter, so it's possible or likely that it spiked higher than that. In any case, you can have a fairly high inrush current on a fairly small circuit breaker before it'll trip; just look at the specs for a circuit breaker sometime. Square D for example has these in their online PDF catalog stuff. And, this makes sense because the breaker is designed to trip based on how much the wiring is heating up... 20A ( * 80%) continuous load will warm up the wire a lot more than an 80A inrush for a second or two. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ajp166 at verizon.net Thu Feb 5 15:17:12 2009 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 16:17:12 -0500 Subject: speaking of 3.5 In-Reply-To: <8530437.1233850912918.JavaMail.root@mswamui-thinleaf.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <8530437.1233850912918.JavaMail.root@mswamui-thinleaf.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <498B5758.2050205@verizon.net> melamy at earthlink.net wrote: > I been "listening" to most of this thread so, forgive me if I already mention an idea that someone has already brought up... > > I seem to recollect that when I was working on hard sector floppy drives back in the Northstar Horizon system days, that the controller only wrote a block of data for each sector with basically nothing in between. It saw an index hole, wrote the block and then waited for the next index hole to write the next sector. If you want to recreate index holes for reading a hard sectored floppy, it seems you could detect the end of data from the previous sector and then generate a accurate index hole for the upcoming sector. Use the single index to reset the sector count if you are keeping track of that. > You can also use index for the maker of start and just count off ten sectors at a 1/rotation rate. Motor speed for a rotation is fairly stable but must be very close to speed as in less than a few percent. However that will not help you read it on a modern floppy controller as the header and all the other marks that FDCs (be they 765 based or 1771/1793 based) need to locate data are not there. That said if your really out to read NS* disks the format and controller is fairly simple to subset and build to be done off the parallel port of a PC for read only and maybe write. This is possible as the controller for the S100 had to accommodate a slow 8080 or z80 (4mhz) that would be pushing to write a byte every 64/32 uS and do housekeeping. Of course having a real NS* is far more fun. Allison > Obviously, this is only a solution for reading the disk > > There are other solutions... > best regards, Steve Thatcher > > >> Hi Chris >> I was recently looking at my Teac drive's index pulse to see how it >> worked relative to the drive going ready ( the problem of trying to >> find a way to recreate the /Ready signal ). >> One thing I noticed was that the leading edge of the index pulse >> was as accurate as my scope could show but the trailing edge was >> all over the place. >> My thinking is that the drive is controlled by a servo loop. >> The leading edge is when a crystal clock says the pulse is suppose >> to start and the trailing edge is when the actual edge is detected. >> If one timed the length of time between the two edges, one would >> then know the corrective response of the loop. >> As an example, if the pulse was long, you'd keep a similar software >> wheel rotating that you apply a correction to by the amount the >> pulse was long. >> It would be this internal software generated wheel that you'd use >> to create the index pulses from. >> You need the code to watch the drive to determine the parameters >> of the control system, gain, dampening and intertia. >> If done this way, I suspect that one could get very close to >> the right index pulse spacing. >> Dwight >> >> >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. >> http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_howitworks_022009 >> > > > > From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Feb 5 16:15:32 2009 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 14:15:32 -0800 Subject: PDP-11 power requirements In-Reply-To: References: <8CB55D94821FC83-4E8-F7F@Webmail-mg08.sim.aol.com> <18827.22476.925043.380171@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90902051415t149f8474s78ade88a98ee9f47@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 1:31 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Thinking further, I'm not as sure the 11/44 has a 20A plug The 11/44 I had did have a 20A plug. I replaced the outlet in the wall instead of replacing the power cable on the 11/44. (I sold that 11/44 to Guy a couple years back). -Glen From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Feb 5 15:54:39 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 16:54:39 -0500 Subject: Simulation vs breadboarding (was Replacing failed powersupplies on qbus PDP-11s) In-Reply-To: <4989CB87.2020600@bitsavers.org> References: <4989CB87.2020600@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <200902051654.40004.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 04 February 2009 12:08:23 pm Al Kossow wrote: > > Until the boss sees that you screwed around in the lab for an hour or > > two getting all the parts and building the test circuit > > I doubt any company newer than 10 years old even has lab stock any more > to breadboard something with. > > I'd end up going to Haltek or Halted for parts, because Apple killed off > their parts stock room when the hardware group was moving from Valley Green > to Infinite Loop. One day I went over to it and it was empty. They had > dumped the whole thing into recycling because none of the hardware > engineers used any of it anymore. Ugh. Fsck'n idiots... :-( -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Feb 5 16:23:57 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 14:23:57 -0800 Subject: PDP-11 power requirements In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90902051415t149f8474s78ade88a98ee9f47@mail.gmail.com> References: <8CB55D94821FC83-4E8-F7F@Webmail-mg08.sim.aol.com> <18827.22476.925043.380171@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1e1fc3e90902051415t149f8474s78ade88a98ee9f47@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Just to pile on: my 11/44 has a 'regular' 115v plug. It looks old and decrepit enough to be stock. :-) -- Ian -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Glen Slick Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 2:16 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: PDP-11 power requirements On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 1:31 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Thinking further, I'm not as sure the 11/44 has a 20A plug The 11/44 I had did have a 20A plug. I replaced the outlet in the wall instead of replacing the power cable on the 11/44. (I sold that 11/44 to Guy a couple years back). -Glen From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Feb 5 16:00:14 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 17:00:14 -0500 Subject: Anyone have a line on batteries for the NLS portable oscilloscope? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200902051700.15147.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 04 February 2009 01:51:59 pm Ethan Dicks wrote: > Hi, All, > > The topic of replacement batteries came up in the Yahoo Group > for the RB5X, and someone posted a link for 2 volt 2.5 Amp-hour > cells (which are apparently used in an older version of the robot > than mine)... > > ecell> > > I saw the image and immediately thought of my NLS portable oscilloscope. > I'd love to refurb mine, but $45 in batteries is a little on the high > side for me. > Has anyone on the list replaced a set of this sort of battery, and does > anyone know of a place that stocks them for a bit less? > > -ethan Are we talking about more or less standard gel cells? The 2V terminal voltage would seem to indicate so. Those are *very* standardized, in terms of similar sizes being offered by a great many different manufacturers. When I was doing the retail battery thing some years back (roughly 1993-5), we carried PowerSonic and one other brand I'm not remembering at the moment, and the sizes for similar capacities was a pretty good match for the Panasonic units listed in the Digi-Key catalog. Folks would come in with all sorts of other units and I was usually able to match them up with something that would fit. I've never seen single cells, but we did have some 4V units which were only two cells. Capacity in any given size of box seems to gradually increase over time. I've seen 6, 6.5, and 7AH in exactly the same size container, for example. Shipping is going to be the worst of it. I'd find some national chain convenient to you (Batteries Plus being an example) and then see if you can get them to order what you need, and it won't cost you for shipping at all. Feel free to direct any other battery-related questions my way, if you have any. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Feb 5 16:28:13 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 15:28:13 -0700 Subject: Simulation vs breadboarding (was Replacing failed powersupplies on qbus PDP-11s) In-Reply-To: <200902051654.40004.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <4989CB87.2020600@bitsavers.org> <200902051654.40004.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <498B67FD.7040805@jetnet.ab.ca> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Wednesday 04 February 2009 12:08:23 pm Al Kossow wrote: >> > Until the boss sees that you screwed around in the lab for an hour or >> > two getting all the parts and building the test circuit >> >> I doubt any company newer than 10 years old even has lab stock any more >> to breadboard something with. >> >> I'd end up going to Haltek or Halted for parts, because Apple killed off >> their parts stock room when the hardware group was moving from Valley Green >> to Infinite Loop. One day I went over to it and it was empty. They had >> dumped the whole thing into recycling because none of the hardware >> engineers used any of it anymore. > > Ugh. > > Fsck'n idiots... :-( > I wonder what happed to apple's cray? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Feb 5 16:33:28 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 17:33:28 -0500 Subject: Anyone have a line on batteries for the NLS portable oscilloscope? In-Reply-To: <200902051700.15147.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200902051700.15147.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 5:00 PM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Wednesday 04 February 2009 01:51:59 pm Ethan Dicks wrote: >> Hi, All, >> >> The topic of replacement batteries came up in the Yahoo Group >> for the RB5X, and someone posted a link for 2 volt 2.5 Amp-hour >> cells... >> >> >ecell> >> >> I saw the image and immediately thought of my NLS portable oscilloscope. >> I'd love to refurb mine, but $45 in batteries is a little on the high >> side for me. > > Are we talking about more or less standard gel cells? The 2V terminal voltage > would seem to indicate so. Yes. > Those are *very* standardized, in terms of similar sizes being offered by a > great many different manufacturers. When I was doing the retail battery > thing some years back (roughly 1993-5), we carried PowerSonic and one other > brand I'm not remembering at the moment, and the sizes for similar > capacities was a pretty good match for the Panasonic units listed in the > Digi-Key catalog. Folks would come in with all sorts of other units and I > was usually able to match them up with something that would fit. I'm not concerned about specific vendors - just D-sized (to fit the enclosure) with solder-tabs. > I've never seen single cells, but we did have some 4V units which were only > two cells. My NLS has 3 single cells, bonded together, IIRC. I would be happy to solder up loose cells. > Capacity in any given size of box seems to gradually increase over time. I've > seen 6, 6.5, and 7AH in exactly the same size container, for example. Capactity isn't really a show-stopper for the oscilloscope, but I think I do need good batteries in there to function, even when plugged in. > Shipping is going to be the worst of it. I'd find some national chain > convenient to you (Batteries Plus being an example) and then see if you can > get them to order what you need, and it won't cost you for shipping at all. I can certainly start there. There's one nearby, and I have a target price of $7 each (ex. S&H) -ethan From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Feb 5 17:56:50 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 15:56:50 -0800 Subject: Simulation vs breadboarding (was Replacing failed powersupplies on qbus PDP-11s) Message-ID: <498B7CC2.5060306@bitsavers.org> > I wonder what happed to apple's cray? Traded in for a smaller model in the early 90's. It had little practical use after the Aquarius project was killed. Last use for the Cray-ette was as a backup system with the large tape robot that was attached. In its prime, they had people begging to buy time on the thing, which sat idle most of the time. From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Feb 5 18:04:27 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 19:04:27 -0500 Subject: Replacing failed powersupplies on qbus PDP-11s In-Reply-To: <9FA81EA4-D403-4AD6-AD45-68D8EDEFD530@neurotica.com> References: <9FA81EA4-D403-4AD6-AD45-68D8EDEFD530@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200902051904.27378.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 04 February 2009 04:27:42 pm Dave McGuire wrote: > On Feb 4, 2009, at 3:19 PM, William Donzelli wrote: > >> Heh...I think you have those time estimates reversed. > > > > You have not dealt with a modern, barely stocked, corporate lab > > lately, have you? > > > > "Hey, I need a few 100 ohm resistors. Have any back there?" > > "Nope, try Digikey." > > Ahh, suitly companies. Nope, I avoid them like the plague. Too bad that's all there seems to be around these parts... :-( That's why I'm doing a bit of contracting these days. Is it different where you are? > *I* have a well-stocked lab. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Feb 5 18:44:07 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 16:44:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Simulation vs breadboarding (was Replacing failed powersupplies on qbus PDP-11s) In-Reply-To: <498B7CC2.5060306@bitsavers.org> from Al Kossow at "Feb 5, 9 03:56:50 pm" Message-ID: <200902060044.n160i77r016698@floodgap.com> > > I wonder what happed to apple's cray? > > Traded in for a smaller model in the early 90's. It had little practical > use after the Aquarius project was killed. Aquarius project? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "In God We Trust (All Others We Monitor)" ---------------------------------- From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Feb 5 18:55:40 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 19:55:40 -0500 Subject: Simulation vs breadboarding (was Replacing failed powersupplies on qbus PDP-11s) In-Reply-To: <200902060044.n160i77r016698@floodgap.com> References: <498B7CC2.5060306@bitsavers.org> <200902060044.n160i77r016698@floodgap.com> Message-ID: > Aquarius project? Every computer company had an Aquarius project at some point. That damn song... -- Will From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Feb 5 19:31:16 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 19:31:16 -0600 Subject: Simulation vs breadboarding (was Replacing failed powersupplies on qbus PDP-11s) In-Reply-To: References: <498B7CC2.5060306@bitsavers.org> <200902060044.n160i77r016698@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <498B92E4.60108@gmail.com> William Donzelli wrote: >> Aquarius project? > > Every computer company had an Aquarius project at some point. Did anyone other than Mattel launch a computer with that name? From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Thu Feb 5 20:11:14 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 21:11:14 -0500 Subject: Simulation vs breadboarding (was Replacing failed powersupplieson qbus PDP-11s) In-Reply-To: References: <498B7CC2.5060306@bitsavers.org><200902060044.n160i77r016698@floodgap.com> Message-ID: > > Aquarius project? > > Every computer company had an Aquarius project at some point. > > That damn song... Perhaps. In the case of DEC, it was because it was their first watercooled machine. It had a somewhat reduced performance counterpart codenamed "Aridus" (as in "dry"). That one shipped as the VAX 8800 series; Aquarius was canceled. paul From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Feb 5 20:20:41 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 18:20:41 -0800 Subject: speaking of 3.5 In-Reply-To: <498B5758.2050205@verizon.net> References: <8530437.1233850912918.JavaMail.root@mswamui-thinleaf.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <498B5758.2050205@verizon.net> Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 16:17:12 -0500 > From: ajp166 at verizon.net > To: > CC: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: speaking of 3.5 > > melamy at earthlink.net wrote: >> I been "listening" to most of this thread so, forgive me if I already mention an idea that someone has already brought up... >> >> I seem to recollect that when I was working on hard sector floppy drives back in the Northstar Horizon system days, that the controller only wrote a block of data for each sector with basically nothing in between. It saw an index hole, wrote the block and then waited for the next index hole to write the next sector. If you want to recreate index holes for reading a hard sectored floppy, it seems you could detect the end of data from the previous sector and then generate a accurate index hole for the upcoming sector. Use the single index to reset the sector count if you are keeping track of that. >> > You can also use index for the maker of start and just count off ten > sectors at a 1/rotation rate. > Motor speed for a rotation is fairly stable but must be very close to > speed as in less than a few percent. > > However that will not help you read it on a modern floppy controller as > the header and all the other marks > that FDCs (be they 765 based or 1771/1793 based) need to locate data > are not there. > > That said if your really out to read NS* disks the format and controller > is fairly simple to subset > and build to be done off the parallel port of a PC for read only and > maybe write. > This is possible as the controller for the S100 had to accommodate a > slow 8080 or z80 (4mhz) > that would be pushing to write a byte every 64/32 uS and do housekeeping. > > Of course having a real NS* is far more fun. Hi The plan was to use a 3.5 disk on a H89 or N*, not read them on a PC. The difficulty is that the rotational speed of the 3.5 drive is not constant enough to allow the disk to be reliably read or written, just taking the current revolution dividing the time up and expecting the next revolution to be the same. I believe this is what Chris was doing. The idea of using a PLL is not to bad but I still think the problem can be solved with a software version of a PLL. One would need to experiment a little with the parameters. One just needs to understand the drives parameters. This is much easier to do in software than a hardware PLL. Dwight > > Allison >> Obviously, this is only a solution for reading the disk >> >> > There are other solutions... > > >> best regards, Steve Thatcher >> >> >>> Hi Chris >>> I was recently looking at my Teac drive's index pulse to see how it >>> worked relative to the drive going ready ( the problem of trying to >>> find a way to recreate the /Ready signal ). >>> One thing I noticed was that the leading edge of the index pulse >>> was as accurate as my scope could show but the trailing edge was >>> all over the place. >>> My thinking is that the drive is controlled by a servo loop. >>> The leading edge is when a crystal clock says the pulse is suppose >>> to start and the trailing edge is when the actual edge is detected. >>> If one timed the length of time between the two edges, one would >>> then know the corrective response of the loop. >>> As an example, if the pulse was long, you'd keep a similar software >>> wheel rotating that you apply a correction to by the amount the >>> pulse was long. >>> It would be this internal software generated wheel that you'd use >>> to create the index pulses from. >>> You need the code to watch the drive to determine the parameters >>> of the control system, gain, dampening and intertia. >>> If done this way, I suspect that one could get very close to >>> the right index pulse spacing. >>> Dwight >>> >>> >>> _________________________________________________________________ >>> Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. >>> http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_howitworks_022009 >>> >> >> >> >> > _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_howitworks_022009 From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Feb 5 12:24:46 2009 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 10:24:46 -0800 Subject: PDP-11 power requirements In-Reply-To: <7d3530220902051011lf1c0b0fmd81a20ed7d4b5393@mail.gmail.com> References: <7d3530220902051011lf1c0b0fmd81a20ed7d4b5393@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: It all depends upon how it's packaged (ie racked) and if it's a unibus or Q-bus machine. With the smaller Q-bus machines (not in a rack) can plug directly into your standard 15A wall socket. If it's in a rack, it will depend upon the power controller that's installed in the rack. AFAIK (in the US at least), there are no 220v power controllers. You'll have either a 120v at 30A power controller or a 3-phase power controller (but that's likely to be only for the largest 11's - like an 11/70). Most everything else is single phase. The single phase power controllers use a "twist lock" 30A plug. You *can* re-wire the end to use a standard 3-prong plug. But (a) it's not code, (b) it's not code, (c) it's not code, (d) the weight of the power cable will tend to pull it out of the wall socket. Oh and did I mention it's not code? Whatever you do *don't* plug it into the dryer socket. You'll be *very* unhappy. TTFN - Guy On Feb 5, 2009, at 10:11 AM, John Floren wrote: > I may soon be acquiring a PDP-11; I do not know the exact model. My > question is, what kind of power supply might this require? It sounds > like some can use 110V and others require 220? Are there models that I > can just plug into my apartment's wall socket, or do I need to get an > extension cord from the washer/dryer socket (which is not in use right > now)? > > If anyone can summarize what models need what sort of power, I'd > appreciate it. > > Thanks > > John > -- > "I've tried programming Ruby on Rails, following TechCrunch in my RSS > reader, and drinking absinthe. It doesn't work. I'm going back to C, > Hunter S. Thompson, and cheap whiskey." -- Ted Dziuba > From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 5 20:31:19 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 18:31:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: speaking of 3.5 In-Reply-To: References: <8530437.1233850912918.JavaMail.root@mswamui-thinleaf.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <498B5758.2050205@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20090205182628.X13438@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 5 Feb 2009, dwight elvey wrote: > Hi > The plan was to use a 3.5 disk on a H89 or N*, not read them > on a PC. Some of the older drives had a flywheel. A drill, in indexing jig, a light and photocell, any you could modify a 3.5" drive to provide 10 or 16 pulses from physically fixed positions, without being dependent on repeatability of rotational speed. From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Feb 5 20:37:46 2009 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 18:37:46 -0800 Subject: ISO older PROMICE manuals In-Reply-To: <498B41D7.1030708@bitsavers.org> References: <498B41D7.1030708@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90902051837j3feb2ad1r39fca8a35d64f951@mail.gmail.com> I have a copy of the PROMICE User Manual Version 2.1, Copyright 1992 by Grammar Engine Inc. I couldn't find a copy anywhere online so I sent them an email and they were kind enough to mail me the manual at no charge. That's nice customer support. On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 11:45 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > Does anyone have copies of the various revisions of the Grammar Engine > PROMICE? I have a manual for a really early version of the device, and > have a few of them of various vintages made in the 90's which neither > match my manual, or the current versions. From eric940 at gmail.com Thu Feb 5 20:57:49 2009 From: eric940 at gmail.com (eric) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 18:57:49 -0800 Subject: Need a copy of an IRE article In-Reply-To: <001801c9876b$19816290$0301a8c0@evan> References: <001801c9876b$19816290$0301a8c0@evan> Message-ID: > Can anyone assist me in getting a copy (pdf preferred) of this article: > > Proceedings of the IRE, Oct. 1953 (Vol. 41, Issue 10), pages 1388-1392. The > article is called. "The Design of Logical OR-AND-OR Pyramids for Digital > Computers" I have it if no one else has provided it for you yet (pdf). Contact me off list if interested. From evan at snarc.net Thu Feb 5 21:28:19 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 22:28:19 -0500 Subject: Need a copy of an IRE article In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <003a01c9880a$f5f3b5d0$0301a8c0@evan> Thanks, but someone else helped me already. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of eric Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 9:58 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Need a copy of an IRE article > Can anyone assist me in getting a copy (pdf preferred) of this > article: > > Proceedings of the IRE, Oct. 1953 (Vol. 41, Issue 10), pages > 1388-1392. The article is called. "The Design of Logical OR-AND-OR > Pyramids for Digital Computers" I have it if no one else has provided it for you yet (pdf). Contact me off list if interested. From lynchaj at yahoo.com Thu Feb 5 21:32:10 2009 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 22:32:10 -0500 Subject: S-100 backplane board spacing Message-ID: Hi! Is there any sort of a standard for S-100 backplane spacing? I measured a couple of backplanes I have (a VG and another one) and they both measured .375" (3/8") gap between the connectors. That seems rather closely spaced to me if the boards are 3/4" apart if the connectors are 3/8" wide themselves. What would be the minimum useful gap between S-100 connectors for a small hobbyist S-100 backplane? I presume 3/8" gap is not enough if you want to accept prototype boards with wire wrap sockets and maintain some clearance. Any constructive thoughts on the subject much appreciated. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Feb 5 22:03:23 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 20:03:23 -0800 Subject: Simulation vs breadboarding (was Replacing failed powersupplies on qbus PDP-11s) Message-ID: <498BB68B.6030508@bitsavers.org> > Aquarius project? A mostly accurate description can be found in http://lowendmac.com/orchard/06/john-sculley-years-apple.html From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Feb 5 22:14:19 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 20:14:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Simulation vs breadboarding (was Replacing failed powersupplies on qbus PDP-11s) In-Reply-To: <498BB68B.6030508@bitsavers.org> from Al Kossow at "Feb 5, 9 08:03:23 pm" Message-ID: <200902060414.n164EJLv016976@floodgap.com> > > Aquarius project? > > A mostly accurate description can be found in > http://lowendmac.com/orchard/06/john-sculley-years-apple.html Fascinating. It is a wonder Apple survived those years. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- #include ------------------------------------------------ From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Feb 5 22:29:50 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 23:29:50 -0500 Subject: Anyone have a line on batteries for the NLS portable oscilloscope? In-Reply-To: References: <200902051700.15147.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200902052329.50698.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 05 February 2009 05:33:28 pm Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, Feb 5, 2009 at 5:00 PM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > On Wednesday 04 February 2009 01:51:59 pm Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> Hi, All, > >> > >> The topic of replacement batteries came up in the Yahoo Group > >> for the RB5X, and someone posted a link for 2 volt 2.5 Amp-hour > >> cells... > >> > >> >>ngl ecell> > >> > >> I saw the image and immediately thought of my NLS portable oscilloscope. > >> I'd love to refurb mine, but $45 in batteries is a little on the high > >> side for me. > > > > Are we talking about more or less standard gel cells? The 2V terminal > > voltage would seem to indicate so. > > Yes. > > > Those are *very* standardized, in terms of similar sizes being offered > > by a great many different manufacturers. When I was doing the retail > > battery thing some years back (roughly 1993-5), we carried PowerSonic > > and one other brand I'm not remembering at the moment, and the sizes for > > similar capacities was a pretty good match for the Panasonic units listed > > in the Digi-Key catalog. Folks would come in with all sorts of other > > units and I was usually able to match them up with something that would > > fit. > > I'm not concerned about specific vendors - just D-sized (to fit the > enclosure) with solder-tabs. On re-reading my earlier post, I *do* remember D-sized single cells, with tabs on them. I think spade lugs were perhaps the more usual means of connecting to them but I don't see soldering as being that much of a problem either. Gates made 'em. > > I've never seen single cells, but we did have some 4V units which were > > only two cells. > > My NLS has 3 single cells, bonded together, IIRC. I would be happy to > solder up loose cells. There were also sets of 2, 3, and 6 cells packaged in plastic and in various sizes including D sized. Some lawn mowers used these for starting! In some cases we were able to get a replacement pack that included a six-cell setup that would go inside the original plastic box. > > Capacity in any given size of box seems to gradually increase over time. > > I've seen 6, 6.5, and 7AH in exactly the same size container, for > > example. > > Capactity isn't really a show-stopper for the oscilloscope, but I > think I do need good batteries in there to function, even when plugged > in. I didn't know that about those little scopes, which I'd still like to get one of someday, just to play with it. :-) I remember them coming out with a dual-trace model too, and can't quite imagine how that'd be on that small of a screen. > > Shipping is going to be the worst of it. I'd find some national chain > > convenient to you (Batteries Plus being an example) and then see if you > > can get them to order what you need, and it won't cost you for shipping > > at all. > > I can certainly start there. There's one nearby, and I have a target > price of $7 each (ex. S&H) There you go, then. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Feb 5 22:33:49 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 23:33:49 -0500 Subject: Simulation vs breadboarding (was Replacing failed powersupplies on qbus PDP-11s) In-Reply-To: References: <498B7CC2.5060306@bitsavers.org> <200902060044.n160i77r016698@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <200902052333.50192.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 05 February 2009 07:55:40 pm William Donzelli wrote: > > Aquarius project? > > Every computer company had an Aquarius project at some point. > > That damn song... Heh. Somewhere in my files I have a schematic for a computer, "Aquarius AS-20" (I'm not 100% certain about the model number) which was an Apple II clone. If I'm remembering right it had a z80 on the board, along with 64k, and some other stuff that cost extra with the original setup. For a while there I was seeing a whole *bunch* of that sort of thing, coming out of "Little Taiwan" in Philly, until the guy who was importing that stuff got slapped down, probably around the same time Franklin did. I'm thinking this was maybe back around '84, maybe early '85. The name "Beltron" comes to mind, too, and I can remember machines that were almost an exact copy except that when you powered them up "Beltron II" showed up on the screen. Later on I think that same company sold peecee clone hardware. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Feb 5 22:36:37 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 23:36:37 -0500 Subject: speaking of 3.5 In-Reply-To: <20090205182628.X13438@shell.lmi.net> References: <8530437.1233850912918.JavaMail.root@mswamui-thinleaf.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <20090205182628.X13438@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200902052336.37599.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 05 February 2009 09:31:19 pm Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 5 Feb 2009, dwight elvey wrote: > > Hi > > The plan was to use a 3.5 disk on a H89 or N*, not read them > > on a PC. > > Some of the older drives had a flywheel. A drill, in indexing jig, a > light and photocell, any you could modify a 3.5" drive to provide 10 or 16 > pulses from physically fixed positions, without being dependent on > repeatability of rotational speed. On the ones that I've scrapped out that "flywheel" was also often a part of the motor. Removing it from the drive showed the reverse side to be a magnet, sometimes only around the outer edge but often for a major portion of the radius of the thing, which would make drilling (or mounting any sort of a sensor) a bit of a problem. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 5 22:45:05 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 20:45:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: Anyone have a line on batteries for the NLS portable oscilloscope? In-Reply-To: <200902052329.50698.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200902051700.15147.rtellason@verizon.net> <200902052329.50698.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20090205204313.W19847@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 5 Feb 2009, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > I didn't know that about those little scopes, which I'd still like to get one > of someday, just to play with it. :-) I remember them coming out with a > dual-trace model too, The model 215 is dual trace. > and can't quite imagine how that'd be on that small of a screen. a lot less useful than a good bench scope. But, it was often there when no other scope would have been. From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Feb 5 23:24:45 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 00:24:45 -0500 Subject: Anyone have a line on batteries for the NLS portable oscilloscope? In-Reply-To: <20090205204313.W19847@shell.lmi.net> References: <200902052329.50698.rtellason@verizon.net> <20090205204313.W19847@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200902060024.45581.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 05 February 2009 11:45:05 pm Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 5 Feb 2009, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > I didn't know that about those little scopes, which I'd still like to > > get one of someday, just to play with it. :-) I remember them coming > > out with a dual-trace model too, > > The model 215 is dual trace. > > > and can't quite imagine how that'd be on that small of a screen. > > a lot less useful than a good bench scope. About what I figured, yeah. > But, it was often there when no other scope would have been. Yup! I have a 5xx series Tek, huge and clunky, and also a 2246, which is a bit more portable, even the accessory pouch to carry the probes and such and the protective cover to go over the front of it, but I sure wouldn't want that living in the trunk of my car, and all that entails. Those little bitty ones, though, look like they'd fit in my toolbox. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Feb 5 23:34:54 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 00:34:54 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 power requirements In-Reply-To: References: <7d3530220902051011lf1c0b0fmd81a20ed7d4b5393@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200902060034.54664.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 05 February 2009, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > If it's in a rack, it will depend upon the power controller that's > installed in the rack. AFAIK (in the US at least), there are no 220v > power controllers. You'll have either a 120v at 30A power controller or > a 3-phase power controller (but that's likely to be only for the > largest 11's - like an 11/70). Most everything else is single phase. FWIW, I've seen 120/240V split-phase DEC PDUs, and have them still, but I'm not 100% sure that they weren't modified 120V single phase ones. I think they were used with some systems that had 240V powered Trident disk drives. I don't remember excatly what model, but some model of 861 PDU sounds about right. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Feb 6 02:20:27 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 03:20:27 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 power requirements In-Reply-To: <118599.98966.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <118599.98966.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Feb 5, 2009, at 4:35 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >>> Peripherals, on the other hand, will vary. If it's >> got a couple hefty >>> disks with it, it might draw a lot more. A couple >> large SMD disks can >>> blow a 15a breaker if you spin them all up at once. >> >> IIRC, an RA81 disk has an inrush spec of 80 amps for a time >> period >> measured in seconds. >> >> Ok, so you don't want one of those anyway. :) > > Hehe... The RA90 disks I use on my Vax 3900 are somewhat similar. I > can only run one at a time on the circuit I've got the thing hooked > to. And I have to be real careful when I spin it up, to ensure that > the lights and the TV set are both turned off. And even then, > sometimes the thing will run for an hour and then *fump* > whirrrrr........ as everything in the room is plunged into blackness. > > But, then again, I've got a lot of other junk on that circuit... I'd assume so. The RA90 is a modern, low-power drive compared to the RA81! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jws at jwsss.com Thu Feb 5 01:56:34 2009 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2009 23:56:34 -0800 Subject: Printronix P-600 and Qume printers available Message-ID: <498A9BB2.1090806@jwsss.com> Printronix P-600's availability "soon" in St. Louis. I'm posting for a friend who has as many as three which may be retired and scrapped. These are well maintained, but obviously elderly printers. The Qume is a wheel printer I posted about some time ago w/o any response. Reply off list unless there is a useful comment, obviously. Qume printer is in Evansville, In. Jim From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Thu Feb 5 02:38:57 2009 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 08:38:57 -0000 Subject: Collection up date Message-ID: <638EACBC22F127458865BBE72482CA290187AB@ediserver.EDICONS.local> Hi all I had a super Xmas break and as a result The following have been restored to factory spec and are running. On TCP/IP network VAX 4000 M500 VAX 4000 M200 MicroVAX 3100 VAX Station 3100 Alpha 3000 Alpha Station 200 Stand alone Rainbow 100+ Needs a DECnet adapter 11C23 Running Micro RSX needs the DECNet board (which I do have) and the Cable which I don't. Decmate III Working Periperals VT200's VT320's VT240 Awaiting Parts/Attention PDP 8e - Has a difficult to trace hardware problem It was running but now I can't toggle in a test proigram. Set address -> DEP -> Set Data - > DEP (Increments the address ok) Go back and examine memory = nothing. System has four x 4K core memory. Removing any one or three out of four makes no difference. I'm rusty on PDP8's ( I last worked on one in 1972) Help!!!!!!!!!!!!! VAX 4000 M300 (Needs the upper outer door and the door for the front of the CPU compartment PRO 350 Needs a RD-5X MF ST506 Drive PRO 380 Needs a RD-5X MF ST506 Drive VT 103 (Needs a monitor board) PDP-11/94 (Needs KDJ11-EB = M8981-BA) Wish List DEC logo colour monitors of any type. VAX VLC's 11/05 11/10 11/34 11/70 RL01's VT100's VT102 VT4XX LA36 LA180 BA123 (Enclosure) BA23 (Enclosure) 11X94-E (Enclosure) Rod Smallwood From chrise at pobox.com Thu Feb 5 07:14:31 2009 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 07:14:31 -0600 Subject: speaking of 3.5" floppies, is 720K R.I.P.? In-Reply-To: <4989918E.8795.86358218@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20090202135243.GU26511@n0jcf.net> <4989918E.8795.86358218@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20090205131430.GG17752@n0jcf.net> On Wednesday (02/04/2009 at 01:01PM -0800), Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 2 Feb 2009 at 7:52, Chris Elmquist wrote: > > > > I've also found a warning in the CatWeasle documentation that this drive > > is not compatible with it and a claim that they are high density only. > > Which, I think I have proven again. > > Just curious, Chris--not that it'll do any good--but what's the chip > used on these drives? main brain is: SEMCO SF12021AG motor control: LB11911 If anyone has a datasheet for the main brain, that would be wonderful. I struck out searching for such a thing. Chris From adamg at pobox.com Thu Feb 5 10:04:32 2009 From: adamg at pobox.com (Adam Goldman) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 11:04:32 -0500 Subject: Video pinouts for Sony SMC-70G Message-ID: <20090205160432.GA18432@silme.pair.com> Josh Dersch wrote: > Just acquired one of these bad boys and I've found very little info on > it -- it appears to have two video out connectors -- a 25-pin D-sub > labeled "RGB Multi Out" and an 8-pin DIN labeled "B/W Multi Out." > Anyone know the pinouts of these? If you're still looking for pinouts, here they are: http://www.eskimo.com/~adam/smc70vidpin.pdf Sorry about the huge PDF file. Since you have the G (genlock) model there should also be RGB video on BNC connectors. > Any ideas what kind of monitor I can expect to use with this machine? For authenticity, a KX-1211HG, CPD-120 or PVM-1270Q. Otherwise, a Commodore 1080 or 1084 or whatever. > Anyone have manuals/software archived? I have a little bit of stuff... I'll drop you a line if/when I archive it... probably some time in 2015? :) Amazingly enough Sony still lists a SMC-70G manual as available to order. The part number is 3-773-522-22. If you feel like taking a $20 gamble you can order it online at servicesales.sel.sony.com or servicesplus.us.sony.biz or by phone at (800)488-7669. You might end up with a hefty bound manual or you might end up with 2 xeroxed pages. I have no idea what it is other than it's an instruction manual for SMC-70G serial number 20211 and later and it's not one of the ones I have. -- Adam From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Feb 5 20:15:58 2009 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 21:15:58 -0500 Subject: Anyone have a line on batteries for the NLS portableoscilloscope? Message-ID: <0KEM00JI6GWX8820@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Anyone have a line on batteries for the NLS portableoscilloscope? > From: "Roy J. Tellason" > Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 17:00:14 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Wednesday 04 February 2009 01:51:59 pm Ethan Dicks wrote: >> Hi, All, >> >> The topic of replacement batteries came up in the Yahoo Group >> for the RB5X, and someone posted a link for 2 volt 2.5 Amp-hour >> cells (which are apparently used in an older version of the robot >> than mine)... >> >> >ecell> >> >> I saw the image and immediately thought of my NLS portable oscilloscope. >> I'd love to refurb mine, but $45 in batteries is a little on the high >> side for me. >> Has anyone on the list replaced a set of this sort of battery, and does >> anyone know of a place that stocks them for a bit less? >> >> -ethan > >Are we talking about more or less standard gel cells? The 2V terminal voltage >would seem to indicate so. > >Those are *very* standardized, in terms of similar sizes being offered by a >great many different manufacturers. When I was doing the retail battery >thing some years back (roughly 1993-5), we carried PowerSonic and one other >brand I'm not remembering at the moment, and the sizes for similar >capacities was a pretty good match for the Panasonic units listed in the >Digi-Key catalog. Folks would come in with all sorts of other units and I >was usually able to match them up with something that would fit. > >I've never seen single cells, but we did have some 4V units which were only >two cells. Gates was a major provider of the single 2V cell in the "D" size with tabs on one end. NLS used three of them but a 6V monolythic battery with the same outer dimensions will also work fine as the tabs soldered to the rear board for mounting and to create a series connection. The only reason batteries are needed to run the NLS is the charger is way too small run run it directly. Allison >Capacity in any given size of box seems to gradually increase over time. I've >seen 6, 6.5, and 7AH in exactly the same size container, for example. > >Shipping is going to be the worst of it. I'd find some national chain >convenient to you (Batteries Plus being an example) and then see if you can >get them to order what you need, and it won't cost you for shipping at all. > >Feel free to direct any other battery-related questions my way, if you have >any. :-) > >-- >Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and >ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can >be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" >- >Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James >M Dakin From robert.stek at gmail.com Thu Feb 5 21:15:49 2009 From: robert.stek at gmail.com (Bob Stek) Date: Thu, 5 Feb 2009 20:15:49 -0700 Subject: Ideas for disposing of entire collection Message-ID: <498bab6c.062a400a.33f8.ffff9242@mx.google.com> Thanks to those here and on comp.os.cpm who have responded publically and privately with some ideas I had not considered before. I know there is at least one ebay selling service in Tucson, a solution I hadn't thought of. I wouldn't mind spending the time describing items correctly if that's how I go. I would be hoping that they have the space to take it so I could get it organized for them. I will also get in touch with Sellam. I have been to a few users group meetings here in Tucson but have never met anyone suffering from the classiccmp disease - perhaps a few weeks worth of notices on Craig's List might scare one or two out of the woodwork. To those who have responded with wish-lists: the biggest problem in my current situation is that too many boxes are labeled "Old computer stuff" or even those that are labeled '8" disks' are in X different boxes in Y different places, usually with boxes in front and on top of them! If I could easily retrieve specific items I would rather they go to people on the lists who appreciate them. Alas, when I packed them away I fantasized that I would have sufficient room to organize everything properly - the reality is that I don't. If I go through an ebay service I might be able to pull some stuff that people have mentioned. I was surprised (thrilled?) to hear that at least one person thought $15-$25k was a reasonable ebay estimate. Frankly that about twice what I would estimate (at least in today's economy!). Maybe I should just sit on it all for the next 2-3 years and wait until one of the next Web 3.0 millionaires wants a legacy collection! Jim Battle, you and Barry Watzman are the only 2 people I know with working Helios systems. If I find those Helios disks I lent you a few years ago, you two guys can split them if you want them. Bob Stek (former) Saver of Lost Sols From doug at stillhq.com Fri Feb 6 02:54:04 2009 From: doug at stillhq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 19:54:04 +1100 Subject: S-100 backplane board spacing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <836656D8-9D1E-483E-BBD2-678FAD096B1E@stillhq.com> While we are discussing S100 does anybody have a handle on where I could obtain 5 S100 edge connector sockets? They seem to be unobtainable (or I am looking in the wrong places). Also, I noticed an eBay auction here in Oz (don't have the number handy. Search for Microbee) that has a DG640 video card and CPU and memory going for an Obscene amount. Hmmm. Would have loved that one Doug Jackson Principal Security Consultant EWA Australia Ph 02 6230 6833 Mo 0414 986 878 Sent from my iPhone On 06/02/2009, at 14:32, "Andrew Lynch" wrote: > Hi! Is there any sort of a standard for S-100 backplane spacing? > > I measured a couple of backplanes I have (a VG and another one) and > they > both measured .375" (3/8") gap between the connectors. That seems > rather > closely spaced to me if the boards are 3/4" apart if the connectors > are 3/8" > wide themselves. > > What would be the minimum useful gap between S-100 connectors for a > small > hobbyist S-100 backplane? I presume 3/8" gap is not enough if you > want to > accept prototype boards with wire wrap sockets and maintain some > clearance. > > Any constructive thoughts on the subject much appreciated. > > Thanks and have a nice day! > > Andrew Lynch > From mike at brickfieldspark.org Fri Feb 6 03:07:44 2009 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 09:07:44 -0000 Subject: Australian PDP-7 References: <4985793B.20721.76368FB2@cclist.sydex.com><4986DA40.9060007@topinform.de><4987E416.3090504@update.uu.se><498891B9.6050106@update.uu.se><4988A043.9000300@update.uu.se> <008c01c98777$c0fd8d30$961ca8c0@mss.local> Message-ID: <004601c9883a$61559850$961ca8c0@mss.local> Max Burnet has confirmed the existence of PDP-7 #60 in his storage collection along with a couple of photos. This machine was at Lucas Heights Atomic Energy Establishment but does not appear on the service list (#47 does, also at Lucas Heights), so it appears to be one of the "missing" 21 machines. Any info on the PDP-7 range of machines gratefully appreciated. Many thanks, Best regards, Mike Hatch Web - www.soemtron.org Email - mike at soemtron.org Looking for a PDP-7 (some hope!) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Hatch" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 9:54 AM Subject: Re: [personal] **JUNK** RE: Computer (museum) registers [was RE:Modules for LINC-8] > Is the PDP-7 from U of Oregon still operational ?. > > Best regards, > Mike Hatch > > Web - www.soemtron.org > Email - mike at soemtron.org > > Looking for a PDP-7 (some hope!) > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rich Alderson" > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > > Sent: Wednesday, February 04, 2009 12:16 AM > Subject: [personal] **JUNK** RE: Computer (museum) registers [was RE: > Modules for LINC-8] > > >>> From: Pontus >>> Sent: Tuesday, February 03, 2009 11:52 AM >> >>> Rich Alderson wrote: >> >>>> Where is there a register of PDP-7 systems? I know of only two, >>>> personally. >> >>> Its been on this list before, here is the link: >> >>> http://www.soemtron.org/pdp7.html >> >>>Lets hope the two you know about are not on the list :) >> >> Nope, Tore's and ours are on the list. >> >> When we disassembled the system in the High Energy Physics Lab at the >> University of Oregon in June, 2006, it was still in running condition. >> >> >> Rich Alderson >> Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project >> Vulcan, Inc. >> 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 >> Seattle, WA 98104 >> >> mailto:RichA at vulcan.com >> (206) 342-2239 >> (206) 465-2916 cell >> >> >> >> >> > > > > > From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Feb 6 04:14:38 2009 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 11:14:38 +0100 (CET) Subject: PDP-11 power requirements In-Reply-To: <8CB55D94821FC83-4E8-F7F@Webmail-mg08.sim.aol.com> References: <8CB55D94821FC83-4E8-F7F@Webmail-mg08.sim.aol.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Feb 2009 tiggerlasv at aim.com wrote: > I can't speak towards the older, larger Unibus models, > such as the 11/45, 11/55, 11/60, and 11/70. 11/[45][05] use standard line cords. > However, these models generally had a standard 115volt line cord: That would mean that all my machines will die due to overvoltage ;-) Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Feb 6 04:22:23 2009 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 11:22:23 +0100 (CET) Subject: PDP-11 power requirements In-Reply-To: <200902052124.n15LOmBm012745@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <25023.35538.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200902052124.n15LOmBm012745@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Feb 2009, Dennis Boone wrote: > IIRC, an RA81 disk has an inrush spec of 80 amps for a time period > measured in seconds. I'm using an RA80 together with an RL02 and a TU56 on a 16 amp (standard) circuit breaker with C characteristics. > Ok, so you don't want one of those anyway. :) We've been offered two SA481, i.e. two racks containing four RA81 each. I don't know if they are still available (we had to pass because we haven't the space for them), but anyone interested could pick them up for free. Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Feb 6 04:38:21 2009 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 11:38:21 +0100 (CET) Subject: speaking of 3.5 In-Reply-To: <20090205182628.X13438@shell.lmi.net> References: <8530437.1233850912918.JavaMail.root@mswamui-thinleaf.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <498B5758.2050205@verizon.net> <20090205182628.X13438@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Feb 2009, Fred Cisin wrote: > Some of the older drives had a flywheel. A drill, in indexing jig, a > light and photocell, any you could modify a 3.5" drive to provide 10 or 16 > pulses from physically fixed positions, without being dependent on > repeatability of rotational speed. I don't think that this would work, simply because the motor driver IC has an internal PLL that controls the motor speed according to the output of the flywheel sensor, and that PLL is crystal locked (a small resonator of e.g. 981kHz, 1MHz or 493kHz). In order to change the speed you need to change that ceramic resonator. I know that because I've been trying to slightly reduce the speed of a 3.5" drive in order to write long tracks on an Amiga. That is BTW how I found out that the driver IC I mentioned in an earlier post can do 600 and 720 RPM. Christian From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Feb 6 08:20:35 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 09:20:35 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 power requirements In-Reply-To: References: <25023.35538.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200902052124.n15LOmBm012745@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <200902060920.36039.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 06 February 2009, Christian Corti wrote: > On Thu, 5 Feb 2009, Dennis Boone wrote: > > IIRC, an RA81 disk has an inrush spec of 80 amps for a time period > > measured in seconds. > > I'm using an RA80 together with an RL02 and a TU56 on a 16 amp > (standard) circuit breaker with C characteristics. I'm sure that De's specs were for a 120V circuit. With a 200-240V circuit, the draw should be about half. Also, an RL02 and TU56 draw next to no power; i'd be surprised if both of them together draw much more than 1 amp while running, off of ~240V power. Also, I've always wondered if at "16 amp" circuit in Europe isn't really the same as a "20 amp" circuit in the US; here you're supposed to not load a circuit to more than 80% of the rating for a continuous load, which works out to 16 amps for a US 20 amp circuit. Is there anyone here with electrician-type experience outside of North America that can give me an answer to that? Are you allowed to run a "16 amp" circuit with 16 amps of continuous load? (Not surprising though I guess, at least one electrician at work here insists that you are allowed to draw 100% of the fuse/breaker rating continuously, though I've looked it up and it's definitely not allowed by code.) > > Ok, so you don't want one of those anyway. :) > > We've been offered two SA481, i.e. two racks containing four RA81 > each. I don't know if they are still available (we had to pass > because we haven't the space for them), but anyone interested could > pick them up for free. Considering that they're RA81s, their HDA is likely to be in a condition where they're more useful as scrap (or spare parts for other drives) than as an actual RA81. :( At least RA82s in my experience haven't had the same problems that RA81s had. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Feb 6 09:13:35 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 07:13:35 -0800 Subject: S-100 backplane board spacing Message-ID: <498C539F.9090703@bitsavers.org> > does anybody have a handle on where I > could obtain 5 S100 edge connector sockets? You also need to specify the spacing of the circuit and component side pins on the connector for your backplane. There are at least two different spacings that were used. Most were the wider style, early MITS backplanes had closer spacing. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Feb 6 09:31:48 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 07:31:48 -0800 Subject: speaking of 3.5 In-Reply-To: References: <8530437.1233850912918.JavaMail.root@mswamui-thinleaf.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <498B5758.2050205@verizon.net> <20090205182628.X13438@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 11:38:21 +0100 > From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: speaking of 3.5 > > On Thu, 5 Feb 2009, Fred Cisin wrote: >> Some of the older drives had a flywheel. A drill, in indexing jig, a >> light and photocell, any you could modify a 3.5" drive to provide 10 or 16 >> pulses from physically fixed positions, without being dependent on >> repeatability of rotational speed. > > I don't think that this would work, simply because the motor driver IC > has an internal PLL that controls the motor speed according to the output > of the flywheel sensor, and that PLL is crystal locked (a small resonator > of e.g. 981kHz, 1MHz or 493kHz). In order to change the speed you need to > change that ceramic resonator. > I know that because I've been trying to slightly reduce the speed of a > 3.5" drive in order to write long tracks on an Amiga. That is BTW how I > found out that the driver IC I mentioned in an earlier post can do 600 and > 720 RPM. > > Christian Hi First we are assumming that the drive already has a switch for 720K that works. On the ones I'm looking at, one could glue some equally spaced tabs on the flywheel and add a opto pickup. The 3.5 disk always mounts the same relative to the motor and uses a sensor on the motor to create the index. The Mitsumi drive I have in my hand right now has just such an exposed flywheel/motor. I looked at the Teacs I have and don't believe one could do this because the motor is mounted differently. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_022009 From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Feb 6 10:38:52 2009 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 17:38:52 +0100 (CET) Subject: PDP-11 power requirements In-Reply-To: <200902060920.36039.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <25023.35538.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200902052124.n15LOmBm012745@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <200902060920.36039.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Feb 2009, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > I'm sure that De's specs were for a 120V circuit. With a 200-240V I know, but the majority of the world uses 230V (+/- 10%), and he didn't mention that he's part of the minority ;-)) > give me an answer to that? Are you allowed to run a "16 amp" circuit > with 16 amps of continuous load? (Not surprising though I guess, at Yes, of course, the outlets, the plugs and the circuit breaker are rated for 16 amps. You can have less (e.g. 10 amps) or more (e.g. 32 amps) if it's feasible (which a good certified electrician can find out). > least one electrician at work here insists that you are allowed to draw > 100% of the fuse/breaker rating continuously, though I've looked it up > and it's definitely not allowed by code.) It doesn't make any sense having a rating on a fuse and then disallow it by code. A fuse is a critical safety element, and it is designed to trip when the current exceeds the rating. If drawing a certain amount of current without tripping the fuse is outside the specifications of the electric installation, then that's a faulty and highly dangerous installation. > than as an actual RA81. :( At least RA82s in my experience haven't had > the same problems that RA81s had. Ehm, well, actually they *are* RA82s in SA482 cabinets (and not RA81s as I've thought). I just had a look at the offer again. Christian From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Feb 6 10:50:47 2009 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 08:50:47 -0800 Subject: PDP-11 power requirements In-Reply-To: References: <8CB55D94821FC83-4E8-F7F@Webmail-mg08.sim.aol.com> Message-ID: <6A93586E-60EF-495D-A857-3E1BC417700F@shiresoft.com> On Feb 6, 2009, at 2:14 AM, Christian Corti wrote: > On Thu, 5 Feb 2009 tiggerlasv at aim.com wrote: >> I can't speak towards the older, larger Unibus models, >> such as the 11/45, 11/55, 11/60, and 11/70. > > 11/[45][05] use standard line cords. Yes, but you needed multiples. That is, the CPUs have 2 H720 power supplies. TTFN - Guy From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Feb 6 11:48:41 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 09:48:41 -0800 Subject: Some Microtek MICE documentation Message-ID: <498C77F9.8040108@bitsavers.org> Almost nothing was out there for the low cost ICE's that Microtek built, so I scanned and took some pictures of the bits that I have. Additional personality docs (esp for the MICE-II 6502 and 6809) would be nice to find. Still need to take some pics of the original 6502 MICE that I have. http://bitsavers.org/pdf/microtek/mice From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Feb 6 13:53:41 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 14:53:41 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 power requirements In-Reply-To: References: <25023.35538.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200902060920.36039.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200902061453.41388.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 06 February 2009, Christian Corti wrote: > On Fri, 6 Feb 2009, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > I'm sure that De's specs were for a 120V circuit. With a 200-240V > > I know, but the majority of the world uses 230V (+/- 10%), and he > didn't mention that he's part of the minority ;-)) Nor did you mention that you're in the majority, but I was able to figure it out with a little deductive guesswork. :) > > give me an answer to that? Are you allowed to run a "16 amp" > > circuit with 16 amps of continuous load? (Not surprising though I > > guess, at > > Yes, of course, the outlets, the plugs and the circuit breaker are > rated for 16 amps. You can have less (e.g. 10 amps) or more (e.g. 32 > amps) if it's feasible (which a good certified electrician can find > out). Well, here everything is rated for "20 amps" and labelled as such, but there's a difference between continuous load (eg, lights or appliances that are continuously on, such as emergency lighting, or computers in some cases), and intermittent load (eg, a vacuum cleaner, kitchen appliances, etc). You're allowed to use the full rating for intermittent loads, but only 80% of the rating for continuous loads. The theory here is that an intermittent load will have enough off time to keep the wires from heating up as much. > > least one electrician at work here insists that you are allowed to > > draw 100% of the fuse/breaker rating continuously, though I've > > looked it up and it's definitely not allowed by code.) > > It doesn't make any sense having a rating on a fuse and then disallow > it by code. A fuse is a critical safety element, and it is designed > to trip when the current exceeds the rating. If drawing a certain > amount of current without tripping the fuse is outside the > specifications of the electric installation, then that's a faulty and > highly dangerous installation. Like I said above, there's different kinds of loads. If you have a device that draws 25 amps, but only on 1/2 of the AC cycles (eg, because it uses a half-wave rectifier), it should be able to be safely run off of a 20 amp circuit. Also, most fuses don't instantly pop when the current through them exceeds their rated value, and there's special types of fuses (motor/time delay) that are designed to handle a much higher current than their nameplate rating for a short amount of time. Circuit breakers are generally even more like this, containing an element to instantly trip over a certain value (the "short circuit" threshold), and a time-delay element that trips the breaker when it heats up enough. I guess the best way to describe them is as a "leaky integrator", with a trip point measured in amp-seconds. Things like the 80% rule that I mentioned are there so that electricians have a guideline for what size circuit to put in, without having to do a lot of high-level math (in effect modelling the circuit characteristics) to figure out what rating the circuit needs. > > than as an actual RA81. :( At least RA82s in my experience haven't > > had the same problems that RA81s had. > > Ehm, well, actually they *are* RA82s in SA482 cabinets (and not RA81s > as I've thought). I just had a look at the offer again. They probably are worthwhile to pick up, then. I'm surprised that a dealer hasn't gotten to them by now... I know at least one dealer on this list (but in the "wrong" country for the offer :) that was interested in RA82s at some point within the past year or two. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Fri Feb 6 14:12:43 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 15:12:43 -0500 Subject: PDP-11 power requirements References: <25023.35538.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200902060920.36039.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200902061453.41388.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <18828.39355.786625.192415@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Patrick" == Patrick Finnegan writes: Patrick> Well, here everything is rated for "20 amps" and labelled as Patrick> such, but there's a difference between continuous load (eg, Patrick> lights or appliances that are continuously on, such as Patrick> emergency lighting, or computers in some cases), and Patrick> intermittent load (eg, a vacuum cleaner, kitchen appliances, Patrick> etc). You're allowed to use the full rating for Patrick> intermittent loads, but only 80% of the rating for Patrick> continuous loads. There are some additional rules for special cases. For example, for electric welders there are a whole lot of derating factors specified for different duty cycles. At the lowest duty cycles you're allowed to put amazing amounts of current through rather small wires. Read the official docs for the details, if you need them... paul From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 6 12:54:12 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 18:54:12 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Collection up date In-Reply-To: <638EACBC22F127458865BBE72482CA290187AB@ediserver.EDICONS.local> from "Rod Smallwood" at Feb 5, 9 08:38:57 am Message-ID: > PDP 8e - Has a difficult to trace hardware problem=20 > It was running but now I can't toggle in a test proigram. > Set address -> DEP -> Set Data - > DEP (Increments the > address ok) > Go back and examine memory =3D nothing. > System has four x 4K core memory.=20 > Removing any one or three out of four makes no difference. > I'm rusty on PDP8's ( I last worked on one in 1972) > Help!!!!!!!!!!!!! Why do you say this fault is hard to trace? Have you tried to track it down (and if so, what did you find)? In general, faults that 'stay put' are a lot easier to find that intermittants, which have the 'interesting' habit of vinishign as soon as the 'scope or logic analyser is next ot the machine :-) Anyway, it's been some time since I've worked on the 8/e, althogh I know whre the maintenance manuals are if you want me to figure things out. But with a fualt like this, I think I'd start by looking at the Omnibus lines -- is the CPU outputinng an address, data, and the appropriate control lines? If not (and the fact that none of your memory works would seem to indicate a CPU fault), then work backewards from the incorrect/missing bus signal. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 6 13:03:47 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 19:03:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Anyone have a line on batteries for the NLS portable In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Feb 5, 9 05:33:28 pm Message-ID: > > Are we talking about more or less standard gel cells? The 2V terminal voltage > > would seem to indicate so. > > Yes. > > > Those are *very* standardized, in terms of similar sizes being offered by a > > great many different manufacturers. When I was doing the retail battery > > thing some years back (roughly 1993-5), we carried PowerSonic and one other > > brand I'm not remembering at the moment, and the sizes for similar > > capacities was a pretty good match for the Panasonic units listed in the > > Digi-Key catalog. Folks would come in with all sorts of other units and I > > was usually able to match them up with something that would fit. > > I'm not concerned about specific vendors - just D-sized (to fit the > enclosure) with solder-tabs. If they're cylindrical (and if the 'D size' means the same size a a D-size primary cell (like a torch (flashlight) cell), then these sound like 'Cyclon cells'. The smallest one of those is about the same size as a D-cell and it's 2V, 2.5Ah. Last time I needed some (for HP9114 disk drives and 110/110+ computers), I had no torouble in getting them in the UK. -tony From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Feb 6 14:40:05 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 15:40:05 -0500 Subject: DECwriter correspondent LA12 operators manual Message-ID: <200902061540.06076.pat@computer-refuge.org> For anyone interested, I scanned a copy of the LA12's operators manual, which Tom Ponsford graciously loaned me, and have placed a copy here: http://computer-refuge.org/classiccmp/dec/la12/ Al, if you want to grab that or my TIFF copy for bitsavers, let me know and I can send it to you. It's 400dpi/1bpp and G4 compressed. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Feb 6 14:54:00 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 12:54:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Anyone have a line on batteries for the NLS portableoscilloscope? In-Reply-To: <0KEM00JI6GWX8820@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0KEM00JI6GWX8820@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20090206125229.X54622@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 5 Feb 2009, Allison wrote: > The only reason batteries are needed to run the NLS is the charger is way > too small run run it directly. I found THAT out the hard way. When I sold my NLS215 at VCF, I had to sell it "AS-IS" because the batteries wouldn't take a charge. From dbetz at xlisper.com Fri Feb 6 15:11:29 2009 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 16:11:29 -0500 Subject: Atari ST floppy drive? In-Reply-To: <4982D033.2150.6BD253EC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <59E77B39-6F4A-4F67-8709-B85FE44D1729@xlisper.com>, <4982C91E.29974.6BB6A948@cclist.sydex.com>, <4982D033.2150.6BD253EC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <43063472-9DBA-4C27-83D2-C1E2657EA3CF@xlisper.com> Thanks for the floppy cable pinout. I now have a spare floppy cable I can cannibalize if necessary. However, I now have thought of another way around this problem. In addition to the 520ST that I have that needs a floppy drive, I also have a Mega4 ST that is missing its keyboard and mouse. I see that the keyboard connector is just a 6 pin RJ12 style connector that probably just carries serial data. What would be required to make a cable to connect a serial port on a PC to this connector in order to use something like Hyperterminal to act as the keyboard for the Mega ST? Is this simply a matter of making a cable and setting the baud rate right or would there be more to it than that? I'm assuming that something other than just ASCII is sent over the wire since somehow the mouse movements are carried on the same cable as the keyboard key press events. Thanks! David On Jan 30, 2009, at 1:02 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 30 Jan 2009 at 12:39, David Betz wrote: > >> Sure, that would help! I figured there was some other electronics in >> the drive like the Atari 800 and C64 drives. If it's just building a >> cable, I can probably handle that. > > Yup, that's all it is. The connector's a 14-pin DIN, which is > perhaps the hardest thing to find, but I may have one somewhere. > > The pinout is as follows: > > 1 - Read data > 2 - Side select > 3 - Gnd > 4 - Index > 5 - Drive 0 select > 6 - Drive 1 select > 7 - Gnd > 8 - Motor on > 9 - Step direction > 10 - Step > 11 - Write data > 12 - Write gate > 13 - Track 0 > 14 - Write protect > > You'll need a small power supply for the 3.5" drive, but a 5 volt > "wall wart" should do--and you can tuck two drives in the same box if > the mood strikes you. If you use a PC-type 1.44MB drive, make sure > that your disks don't have the high-density aperture uncovered (you > don't want the drive thinking that they're 1.44s). > > Cheers, > Chuck > From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Feb 6 15:17:13 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 13:17:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: speaking of 3.5 In-Reply-To: References: <8530437.1233850912918.JavaMail.root@mswamui-thinleaf.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <498B5758.2050205@verizon.net> <20090205182628.X13438@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20090206131407.M54622@shell.lmi.net> > > Some of the older drives had a flywheel. A drill, in indexing jig, a > > light and photocell, any you could modify a 3.5" drive to provide 10 or 16 > > pulses from physically fixed positions, without being dependent on > > repeatability of rotational speed. On Fri, 6 Feb 2009, Christian Corti wrote: > I don't think that this would work, simply because the motor driver IC > has an internal PLL that controls the motor speed according to the output > of the flywheel sensor, and that PLL is crystal locked (a small resonator > of e.g. 981kHz, 1MHz or 493kHz). In order to change the speed you need to > change that ceramic resonator. I was not trying to change the speed. I was trying to generate a well synchronized sector pulse to make a 3.5" drive suitable for use on a "hard sector" controller. > I know that because I've been trying to slightly reduce the speed of a > 3.5" drive in order to write long tracks on an Amiga. That is BTW how I > found out that the driver IC I mentioned in an earlier post can do 600 and > 720 RPM. Would it be any easier to slightly speed up the data transfer rate, instead? From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Feb 6 15:29:58 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 13:29:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: speaking of 3.5 In-Reply-To: References: <8530437.1233850912918.JavaMail.root@mswamui-thinleaf.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <498B5758.2050205@verizon.net> <20090205182628.X13438@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20090206131937.P54622@shell.lmi.net> > >> Some of the older drives had a flywheel. A drill, in indexing jig, a > >> light and photocell, any you could modify a 3.5" drive to provide 10 or 16 > >> pulses from physically fixed positions, without being dependent on > >> repeatability of rotational speed. On Fri, 6 Feb 2009, dwight elvey wrote: > On the ones I'm looking at, one could glue some equally > and uses a sensor on the motor to create the index. > The Mitsumi drive I have in my hand right now has > just such an exposed flywheel/motor. > I looked at the Teacs I have and don't believe one > could do this because the motor is mounted differently. I was thinking more in terms of the era of the Shugart SA350. It is true that on the integrated motor/flywheel models the marks would have to be added or painted on, rather than drilled through the flywheel. I've never made any modifications to "modern" drives. In making a 3.5" drive for H80 and N*, is there any compelling reason to NOT use older drives? (does it have to be less than 1/2" thick?) Could a combo 3.5" and 5.25" drive be modified to do hard sector 5.25"? (thus adding 3.5" without losing 5.25" and still fitting stock mounting locations) From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Feb 6 16:17:16 2009 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 16:17:16 -0600 Subject: FFS: CP/M Plus Guide Message-ID: <51ea77730902061417u440cca22td9f63b6a42e3d7f6@mail.gmail.com> I've got a big pile of paper here (the binding is missing:) Digital Research CP/M Plus Version 3 OS User's Guide, Programmer's Guide and System Guide (all one book.) I'll send it out for the cost of shipping. It probably weighs a couple pounds. Preference given to someone who can scan it nicely and get it into one of the document archives out there. My sheet feeder has given up on feeding the 6"x9" paper. Or, if it already has been scanned and is out there somewhere, someone let me know. Then I won't feel bad recycling it. j -- silent700.blogspot.com Retrocomputing and collecting in the Chicago area: http://chiclassiccomp.org From RichA at vulcan.com Fri Feb 6 16:48:03 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 14:48:03 -0800 Subject: [personal] RE: Computer (museum) registers [was RE: Modules for LINC-8] In-Reply-To: <008c01c98777$c0fd8d30$961ca8c0@mss.local> References: <4985793B.20721.76368FB2@cclist.sydex.com><4986DA40.9060007@topinform.de><4987E416.3090504@update.uu.se><498891B9.6050106@update.uu.se><4988A043.9000300@update.uu.se> <008c01c98777$c0fd8d30$961ca8c0@mss.local> Message-ID: > From: Mike Hatch > Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 1:55 AM > Is the PDP-7 from U of Oregon still operational ?. At present, it is disassembled and awaiting reassembly. That is on the schedule for this spring. We'll announce when it's ready for visitors. Rich Alderson Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 6 19:07:45 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 17:07:45 -0800 Subject: Atari ST floppy drive? In-Reply-To: <43063472-9DBA-4C27-83D2-C1E2657EA3CF@xlisper.com> References: <59E77B39-6F4A-4F67-8709-B85FE44D1729@xlisper.com>, <4982D033.2150.6BD253EC@cclist.sydex.com>, <43063472-9DBA-4C27-83D2-C1E2657EA3CF@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <498C6E61.24130.9163EFC5@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Feb 2009 at 16:11, David Betz wrote: > However, I now have thought of another way around this problem. In > addition to the 520ST that I have that needs a floppy drive, I also > have a Mega4 ST that is missing its keyboard and mouse. I see that the > keyboard connector is just a 6 pin RJ12 style connector that probably > just carries serial data. What would be required to make a cable to > connect a serial port on a PC to this connector in order to use > something like Hyperterminal to act as the keyboard for the Mega ST? > Is this simply a matter of making a cable and setting the baud rate > right or would there be more to it than that? I'm assuming that > something other than just ASCII is sent over the wire since somehow > the mouse movements are carried on the same cable as the keyboard key > press events. David, I can't help you much on the Mega4 ST keyboard issue, having left the Atari universe before the Mega4 came out. However, it seems reasonable to assume that the Mega4 follows the 520 and 1040 in the keyboard design. If this is so, there are several problems. The first is that the serial signal levels are TTL, not RS232C, so a generic serial port interface is out of the question. The second is that the bitrate is a little odd (7812.5 bps) and not one you'll find on a PC serial interface. On the ST, the keyboard processor also handles the mouse and joystick as well as the time-of-day clock. Keypresses are simple key-number depress/key-number+128 release codes, but there are also a couple dozen commands from the CPU that the keyboard understands, so we're not talking about a simple terminal interface here. It might be possible, if you're handy, to take a PC keyboard and a microcontroller and concoct what you require for the Mega4 with little more than a bunch of programming. But I'll leave that exercise to you! Best regards, Chuck From dbetz at xlisper.com Fri Feb 6 19:27:12 2009 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 20:27:12 -0500 Subject: Atari ST floppy drive? In-Reply-To: <498C6E61.24130.9163EFC5@cclist.sydex.com> References: <59E77B39-6F4A-4F67-8709-B85FE44D1729@xlisper.com>, <4982D033.2150.6BD253EC@cclist.sydex.com>, <43063472-9DBA-4C27-83D2-C1E2657EA3CF@xlisper.com> <498C6E61.24130.9163EFC5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <75B57C74-708E-42A6-84D3-057D807BE9F6@xlisper.com> > I can't help you much on the Mega4 ST keyboard issue, having left the > Atari universe before the Mega4 came out. However, it seems > reasonable to assume that the Mega4 follows the 520 and 1040 in the > keyboard design. > > If this is so, there are several problems. The first is that the > serial signal levels are TTL, not RS232C, so a generic serial port > interface is out of the question. The second is that the bitrate is > a little odd (7812.5 bps) and not one you'll find on a PC serial > interface. > > On the ST, the keyboard processor also handles the mouse and joystick > as well as the time-of-day clock. Keypresses are simple key-number > depress/key-number+128 release codes, but there are also a couple > dozen commands from the CPU that the keyboard understands, so we're > not talking about a simple terminal interface here. > > It might be possible, if you're handy, to take a PC keyboard and a > microcontroller and concoct what you require for the Mega4 with > little more than a bunch of programming. But I'll leave that > exercise to you! Hmmm... Sounds like cutting my floppy cable in two and trying to interface it with a standard PC floppy drive might be the easier approach. I was just trying to find a way that didn't involve destroying my only floppy cable. I figure as soon as I do that I'll find someone with a floppy drive and no cable and be sunk... From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Feb 6 06:54:23 2009 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 07:54:23 -0500 Subject: S-100 backplane board spacing Message-ID: <0KEN005UZA8QD6H3@vms173009.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: S-100 backplane board spacing > From: "Andrew Lynch" > Date: Thu, 05 Feb 2009 22:32:10 -0500 > To: > >Hi! Is there any sort of a standard for S-100 backplane spacing? > >I measured a couple of backplanes I have (a VG and another one) and they >both measured .375" (3/8") gap between the connectors. That seems rather >closely spaced to me if the boards are 3/4" apart if the connectors are 3/8" >wide themselves. > >What would be the minimum useful gap between S-100 connectors for a small >hobbyist S-100 backplane? I presume 3/8" gap is not enough if you want to >accept prototype boards with wire wrap sockets and maintain some clearance. There are two considerations, airflow and bus length. Wider gap helps airflow to a point then wider doesnt help as much. Wider spacing makes the bus longer for a give number of connectors and longer has more problems with reflections(ringing) and other transmission line behavours. Longer may also impact power distribution as well. Last items is the height of boards limits how close or forces skipping slots. Some fo the taller boards in my collection suggest greater than 0.75" center to center would barely be adaquate because of tall heatsinks contacking the next board. Look at the better backplanes, Compupro would be one. Also the later boards (more modern) were dense enough that only a few slots are required. I have at least two machines that are: Zpu-B z80 cpu 64K ram (ram 16, 17 or 22) Interfacer (multi serial plus parallel) DISK1A FDC DISK3 HDC Systemm Support Thats only 6 boards and the smallest backplane I have is 8 slots. It's as loaded a system as most or more so. The limiting factor for the box is fans, power supply and mountings for the disks. Older antiques like an altair filled with then current board may have: CPU 8080or later Z80 Ram boards anhywhere from 4k per to 16K per (as many as 8 for 64K) Some form of rom boot card possible a dual board FDC (altair disk was a two card set) multiple IO baord for serial possible multiple boards for one or more printers or other parallel devices. And cooling issues. Hope that helps with some history. I'd say 6-8 slots spaced 1" and also on the board terminator. Allison > >Any constructive thoughts on the subject much appreciated. > >Thanks and have a nice day! > >Andrew Lynch From chrise at pobox.com Fri Feb 6 10:00:41 2009 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 10:00:41 -0600 Subject: speaking of 3.5 In-Reply-To: References: <8530437.1233850912918.JavaMail.root@mswamui-thinleaf.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <498B5758.2050205@verizon.net> <20090205182628.X13438@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20090206160038.GA24525@n0jcf.net> Thanks for all the comments and suggestions on this topic guys. I appreciate it. Indeed the goal was to connect a 5.25" or 3.5" drive with soft-sector media to an H89 and to my SWTPC 6800 which has a Pertec controller (nearly same design as the H89, using a USRT as the floppy controller) and then emulate the 10-hole hard sector media that each requires. The follow on project was to emulate 16-hole hard sector for a Micropolis controller I have in a homebrew CP/M system. I clearly need to be much more synchronous with the speed of the media than I had anticipated. So, the first change to my design will be to keep the drives selected and with motor on all the time and then my microcontroller can track the index pulses. Dwight makes a good point about the leading edge vs the trailing edge of the index pulse and I will explore that behavior too. My fatal mistake so far was assuming that the 3.5" drives and media were much more accurate in their speed than older 5.25" stuff. It's clear now that that's not the case. w.r.t. completely emulating the drive electronically with no moving parts, the "SVD", http://www.thesvd.com/SVD/ has a big following in the Heath H-8 / H-89 world and I do have a couple of them to play with. That's certainly the most practical way to solve this problem... But I wanted to mess around with floppies still since they seem more authentic to the usage model of these older machines. I went down the 3.5" path because that media is still easily obtained and I have hundreds and hundreds of pieces on hand anyway. Chris From chrise at pobox.com Fri Feb 6 15:48:28 2009 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Fri, 6 Feb 2009 15:48:28 -0600 Subject: speaking of 3.5 In-Reply-To: <20090206131937.P54622@shell.lmi.net> References: <8530437.1233850912918.JavaMail.root@mswamui-thinleaf.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <498B5758.2050205@verizon.net> <20090205182628.X13438@shell.lmi.net> <20090206131937.P54622@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20090206214826.GE24525@n0jcf.net> On Friday (02/06/2009 at 01:29PM -0800), Fred Cisin wrote: > > In making a 3.5" drive for H80 and N*, is there any compelling reason to > NOT use older drives? (does it have to be less than 1/2" thick?) > Could a combo 3.5" and 5.25" drive be modified to do hard sector 5.25"? > (thus adding 3.5" without losing 5.25" and still fitting stock mounting > locations) If I can generate these fake index pulses with a circuit that sits between the drive and the controller, then I figured I could use the approach for either 3.5" or 5.25". You would conceivably add this adapter between the original 5.25" drive and controller and then start using 5.25" soft sector floppies instead of the hard sectored ones. The really smart guy would have the adapter figure out if an original hard sector media was in the drive and pass the index pulses straight through vs. a soft sector media in the drive which then gets the index pulses faked. Now you can easily copy your stuff from original media to new even if you have only one drive. Chris From axelsson at acc.umu.se Fri Feb 6 15:58:23 2009 From: axelsson at acc.umu.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Axelsson?=) Date: Fri, 06 Feb 2009 22:58:23 +0100 Subject: Norsk Data website Message-ID: <498CB27F.1020305@acc.umu.se> Hi! It is not complete yet. As a lot of other sites it is a work in progress, but the work has reached the point where it is reasonable to show it to the world. What I'm talking about? The new Norsk Data wiki website of course! Last autumn I asked for some help finding information about ND-100 and now it's time to give something back. Have a look at http://www.ndwiki.org/wiki/Main_Page and tell us what you think about it. If you want to help us even better, just register and add information. :-) /G?ran From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sat Feb 7 04:37:12 2009 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 11:37:12 +0100 (CET) Subject: speaking of 3.5 In-Reply-To: <20090206131407.M54622@shell.lmi.net> References: <8530437.1233850912918.JavaMail.root@mswamui-thinleaf.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <498B5758.2050205@verizon.net> <20090205182628.X13438@shell.lmi.net> <20090206131407.M54622@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Feb 2009, Fred Cisin wrote: > I was not trying to change the speed. I was trying to generate a well > synchronized sector pulse to make a 3.5" drive suitable for use on a "hard > sector" controller. Ok, but you have to make sure that your modifications don't interfere with the speed controlling circuit, which in turn relies on the index pulse and/or the pulses that come from the photocell assembly. > Would it be any easier to slightly speed up the data transfer rate, > instead? Alas no. The transfer rate is fixed, it can only be changed between 2us and 4us bit cell widths, the frequency is derived from the internal clock. Christian From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sat Feb 7 06:01:42 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2009 12:01:42 +0000 Subject: Atari ST floppy drive? In-Reply-To: <75B57C74-708E-42A6-84D3-057D807BE9F6@xlisper.com> References: <59E77B39-6F4A-4F67-8709-B85FE44D1729@xlisper.com> , <4982D033.2150.6BD253EC@cclist.sydex.com> , <43063472-9DBA-4C27-83D2-C1E2657EA3CF@xlisper.com> <498C6E61.24130.9163EFC5@cclist.sydex.com> <75B57C74-708E-42A6-84D3-057D807BE9F6@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <1234008102.9626.44.camel@elric> On Fri, 2009-02-06 at 20:27 -0500, David Betz wrote: > Hmmm... Sounds like cutting my floppy cable in two and trying to > interface it with a standard PC floppy drive might be the easier > approach. I was just trying to find a way that didn't involve > destroying my only floppy cable. I figure as soon as I do that I'll > find someone with a floppy drive and no cable and be sunk... Why would you need to cut the cable to adapt it to a PC floppy? Get some "IDE joiners" which are basically like IDE headers with the pins twice as long, intended for joining ribbon cables back-to-back. Snip off six pins, and extend the "proper" ST cable with a ordinary ribbon cable that you can bodge to fit. Gordon From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sat Feb 7 09:19:27 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 07:19:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Microdata 6000 and Printronix P-600 printer in Edison, NJ In-Reply-To: <659641.92918.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <671779.41073.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Update on the Microdata system. The system is safe and sound in my storage unit. It came complete with a couple of manuals, two terminals, tape drive, the printer, and some terminal controller boxes. Unfortunately, they were not able to locate any tapes or the cables, and there aren't very many manuals either. I talked directly with the lister, and apparently the computer was at a client's site, and the site was NOT open on weekends, so for me, picking it up would be rather difficult. Fortunately, however, his son is a college student with a day off and a pickup truck - and he was willing to deliver it. Unfortunately, he also wanted $250 to do it. That was more than I wanted to spend on the system, but I caved in anyway, because it meant that I wouldn't have to spend an entire day driving out there, retrieving it, loading it, etc. It arrived yesterday around 3:00 - I got out of work a couple hours early to meet them at my storage unit. Unloading it went well, and they had packed the system in the truck well, it arrived in good shape. So, now I have Microdata 6000 and a Printronix P-600... Anyone have any information on these systems? -Ian From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 7 10:58:14 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2009 08:58:14 -0800 Subject: Atari ST floppy drive? In-Reply-To: <1234008102.9626.44.camel@elric> References: <59E77B39-6F4A-4F67-8709-B85FE44D1729@xlisper.com>, <75B57C74-708E-42A6-84D3-057D807BE9F6@xlisper.com>, <1234008102.9626.44.camel@elric> Message-ID: <498D4D26.7421.94CA2F38@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Feb 2009 at 12:01, Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: > Why would you need to cut the cable to adapt it to a PC floppy? > > Get some "IDE joiners" which are basically like IDE headers with the > pins twice as long, intended for joining ribbon cables back-to-back. > Snip off six pins, and extend the "proper" ST cable with a ordinary > ribbon cable that you can bodge to fit. I don't follow you, Gordon. The Atari floppy cable is a male 14-pin DIN on each end. All Electronics does have a female 14-pin PCB-mount DIN in stock. It should be pretty simple to use that for the distant end of the floppy cable and thence to the appropriate 34-pin header. Cheers, Chuck From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sat Feb 7 11:06:41 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2009 17:06:41 +0000 Subject: Atari ST floppy drive? In-Reply-To: <498D4D26.7421.94CA2F38@cclist.sydex.com> References: <59E77B39-6F4A-4F67-8709-B85FE44D1729@xlisper.com> , <75B57C74-708E-42A6-84D3-057D807BE9F6@xlisper.com> , <1234008102.9626.44.camel@elric> <498D4D26.7421.94CA2F38@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1234026401.9626.60.camel@elric> On Sat, 2009-02-07 at 08:58 -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > ribbon cable that you can bodge to fit. > > I don't follow you, Gordon. The Atari floppy cable is a male 14-pin > DIN on each end. The only ones I'd ever seen were 14-pin DIN at one end and 34-pin IDC at the other. Gordon From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 7 11:23:47 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2009 09:23:47 -0800 Subject: Atari ST floppy drive? In-Reply-To: <1234026401.9626.60.camel@elric> References: <59E77B39-6F4A-4F67-8709-B85FE44D1729@xlisper.com>, <498D4D26.7421.94CA2F38@cclist.sydex.com>, <1234026401.9626.60.camel@elric> Message-ID: <498D5323.8217.94E19CA7@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Feb 2009 at 17:06, Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: > The only ones I'd ever seen were 14-pin DIN at one end and 34-pin IDC at > the other. The originals were with a DIN on each end. If the OP had the variety you describe, I figure that he wouldn't have needed to ask his original question! ISTR that the original 520 floppy drives didn't even have a 34-conductor connection on the drive inside the box. Very cost-reduced drives on a one-sided PCB. Cheers, Chuck From brad at heeltoe.com Sat Feb 7 12:59:38 2009 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2009 13:59:38 -0500 Subject: Norsk Data website In-Reply-To: <498CB27F.1020305@acc.umu.se> References: <498CB27F.1020305@acc.umu.se> Message-ID: <4765.1234033178@mini> =?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Axelsson?= wrote: > >What I'm talking about? The new Norsk Data wiki website of course! very cool. Has any information about the Racal-Norsk KPS-5 or KPS-10 ever surfaced? Apparently they were multi user machines which ran zetalisp (lisp machine lisp) and were based on one of the ND machines (ND-500?). One apocryphal story is that someone completed reverse engineered and documented zetalisp for the project. That document would be a nice to have in machine readable form... -brad From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 7 13:32:31 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 19:32:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Anyone have a line on batteries for the NLS In-Reply-To: <20090206125229.X54622@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Feb 6, 9 12:54:00 pm Message-ID: > > On Thu, 5 Feb 2009, Allison wrote: > > The only reason batteries are needed to run the NLS is the charger is way > > too small run run it directly. > > I found THAT out the hard way. > When I sold my NLS215 at VCF, I had to sell it "AS-IS" because the > batteries wouldn't take a charge. That's quite common with devics powered with rechargeable batteries -- the charger on its own can't supply enough current to run the device. Assuming the battery pack is just a battery (that is, no 'battery management' circuitry), you can often run the unit from a bench power supply connected to the battery wires _with the battery disconnected_. Of course this assuems you have a suitable PSU... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 7 13:35:10 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 19:35:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Atari ST floppy drive? In-Reply-To: <43063472-9DBA-4C27-83D2-C1E2657EA3CF@xlisper.com> from "David Betz" at Feb 6, 9 04:11:29 pm Message-ID: > However, I now have thought of another way around this problem. In > addition to the 520ST that I have that needs a floppy drive, I also > have a Mega4 ST that is missing its keyboard and mouse. I see that the > keyboard connector is just a 6 pin RJ12 style connector that probably > just carries serial data. What would be required to make a cable to > connect a serial port on a PC to this connector in order to use > something like Hyperterminal to act as the keyboard for the Mega ST? > Is this simply a matter of making a cable and setting the baud rate I would assume it is more than just a cable. I would be suprised if the Atari keyboard port used RS232 levels, I would have guessed at TTL levels. So you need a buffer chip. I wonder if you you could make up a cale between the ST's keyboard PCB (IIRC the keyboard scanning microcontroller is on the keyboard PCB) and the MegaST keyboard port. -tony From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sat Feb 7 14:06:34 2009 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 15:06:34 -0500 Subject: S-100 backplane board spacing Message-ID: S-100 backplane board spacing Al Kossow aek at bitsavers.org Fri Feb 6 09:13:35 CST 2009 * Previous message: S-100 backplane board spacing * Next message: Some Microtek MICE documentation * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] _____ > does anybody have a handle on where I > could obtain 5 S100 edge connector sockets? You also need to specify the spacing of the circuit and component side pins on the connector for your backplane. There are at least two different spacings that were used. Most were the wider style, early MITS backplanes had closer spacing. _____ * Previous message: S-100 backplane board spacing * Next message: Some Microtek MICE documentation * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] _____ More information about the cctalk mailing list _____ -----REPLY----- Hi! Thanks Al! My question is really what are the commonly accepted standards for appearance, casing, etc. I agree there seem to be an early "narrow" width and a later "wide" width between S-100 connectors. Is there a standard or commonly accepted practice for center to center "wide" board spacing or is it arbitrary? My intent is for a small (4 slot) motherboard used for hobbyist prototyping not a full blown system. The primary application would be the development of new peripherals using prototype boards. I expect that the use of wire-wrap sockets would be common requiring some clearance on the copper side and that the ICs and passives would be socketed. My estimates are that wire-wrap sockets need just bit over 1/2" clearance on the copper side and that most socketed ICs/passives require 1/2" clearance on the component side. Allison's estimate of 1" centers for the boards seems like a reasonable compromise. It won't get every possible combination but enough to be useful. The purpose is to allow low cost prototyping not for a full blown long term system installation. Cost is of primary importance which translates to little PCB surface area as possible while still being useful. BTW, Digikey carries a couple of types of S-100 compatible connectors but they are not cheap. Sullins and EDAC 0.125" spaced, 50 position, 2 row, 100 pin, PCB through hole solder tails card edge connectors run from about $8 to $12 a piece. I can get them surplus occasionally. eBay sells them too but are the wire-wrap variety which would work but is a gross abuse of a wire-wrap connector to solder it into a PCB. It can be done but I wouldn't tell anyone about it. :-) Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Feb 7 16:17:44 2009 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 14:17:44 -0800 Subject: TEK 4107A and TEK 4209 color raster graphic terminals free for pickup in Seattle area (eastside) Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90902071417g72e1b3ccka4c90ea63104f305@mail.gmail.com> As the title says, I have a Tektronix 4107A and a Tektronix 4209 color raster graphics terminal which are free for pickup in Seattle area (eastside). These are vintage 1987 and 1988 from the (c) dates on the terminal firmware. Pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/glen.slick/Tektronix4107A http://picasaweb.google.com/glen.slick/Tektronix4209 Reply offlist if you are interested. -Glen From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Feb 7 18:38:26 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2009 19:38:26 -0500 Subject: Anyone have a line on batteries for the NLS portableoscilloscope? In-Reply-To: <0KEM00JI6GWX8820@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0KEM00JI6GWX8820@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200902071938.26657.rtellason@verizon.net> > >I've never seen single cells, but we did have some 4V units which were > > only two cells. > > Gates was a major provider of the single 2V cell in the "D" size with tabs > on one end. Yeah, I'd remembered that a bit later on... My stint in the battery retail store biz went from January of 1993 to October of 1995, so I'm a bit fuzzy about recalling some of those details these days. :-) > NLS used three of them but a 6V monolythic battery with the same outer > dimensions will also work fine as the tabs soldered to the rear board for > mounting and to create a series connection. The ones they make with multiple cells in a plastic case have a flat top that's rectangular in cross-section and that might be an issue, depending on the housing. A quick google gets me to this page: http://www.batteryprice.com/0819-00126v25ahcyclonleadacidbattery.aspx where there's a picture of one, what they're calling a "0819-0012 6v 2.5Ah Cyclon Lead Acid Battery". Not a bad price at $15.70, either, if it'll fit. The individual D sized cells are here: http://www.batteryprice.com/0810-0004cyclonbattery.aspx at $7.90 each, not terrific but not too terrible either. > The only reason batteries are needed to run the NLS is the charger is way > too small run run it directly. Interesting... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Feb 7 18:41:12 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2009 19:41:12 -0500 Subject: S-100 backplane board spacing In-Reply-To: <836656D8-9D1E-483E-BBD2-678FAD096B1E@stillhq.com> References: <836656D8-9D1E-483E-BBD2-678FAD096B1E@stillhq.com> Message-ID: <200902071941.12657.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 06 February 2009 03:54:04 am Doug Jackson wrote: > While we are discussing S100 does anybody have a handle on where I > could obtain 5 S100 edge connector sockets? They seem to be > unobtainable (or I am looking in the wrong places). I could use a few as well. I have a Vector backplane board that I started to populate, and there are only a few minor bits missing, the connectors being the big one. I think I vaguely recall talking to Herb Johnson (?) about it a while back, but his asking price and my finances at that point in time didn't agree unfortunately. I haven't looked lately to see if he still has 'em. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From silent700 at gmail.com Sat Feb 7 18:58:36 2009 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 18:58:36 -0600 Subject: Broken stuff for sale Message-ID: <51ea77730902071658i42842718g29e7559929fae5a9@mail.gmail.com> Or possibly not broken? I have two items which I must part with as part of The Great Reduction of 2009: - Epson HX-20 Portable; no AC adapter; could not power it on with any AC adapter in my stable; fair cosmetic shape, some sticker residue; has micro-cassette drive module - STM Pied Piper CP/M Computer; I plugged it in and Magic Smoke was released; a competent technician (i.e. not me) can probably fix this easily; comes with a box of 5.25" floppies which may or or may not contain CP/M and other Pied Piper goodies, a Dealer Guide, some brochures for an STM 80186 machine and whatever else I can find Shipping on these items will be from 60074. I have scanned the scannable items from the Pied Piper and they are up at chiclassiccomp.org. Asking price is whatever you feel it's worth for me to box something up and send it out, plus actual shipping. In other words, please give these fine machines a home. -j -- silent700.blogspot.com Retrocomputing and collecting in the Chicago area: http://chiclassiccomp.org From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Sat Feb 7 22:46:32 2009 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2009 20:46:32 -0800 Subject: Anyone have a line on batteries... References: <0KEM00JI6GWX8820@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> <200902071938.26657.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <000701c989a8$37477230$0201a8c0@hal9000> Local store ( Ford Electronics, Southern CA ) has " D " size rechargeable batteries with tabs spot welded on either end, 4.5 AmpHour for $10 . Shipping might be a deal breaker... I've used the " C " and " AA " sizes to replace dead cells in battery packs by solder the new tabs to the old tabs of the cells surgically removed. Best regards, Steven ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roy J. Tellason" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 4:38 PM Subject: Re: Anyone have a line on batteries for the NLS portableoscilloscope? > > >I've never seen single cells, but we did have some 4V units which were > > > only two cells. > > > > Gates was a major provider of the single 2V cell in the "D" size with tabs > > on one end. > > Yeah, I'd remembered that a bit later on... > > My stint in the battery retail store biz went from January of 1993 to October > of 1995, so I'm a bit fuzzy about recalling some of those details these > days. :-) > > > NLS used three of them but a 6V monolythic battery with the same outer > > dimensions will also work fine as the tabs soldered to the rear board for > > mounting and to create a series connection. > > The ones they make with multiple cells in a plastic case have a flat top > that's rectangular in cross-section and that might be an issue, depending on > the housing. A quick google gets me to this page: > > http://www.batteryprice.com/0819-00126v25ahcyclonleadacidbattery.aspx > > where there's a picture of one, what they're calling a "0819-0012 6v 2.5Ah > Cyclon Lead Acid Battery". Not a bad price at $15.70, either, if it'll > fit. The individual D sized cells are here: > > http://www.batteryprice.com/0810-0004cyclonbattery.aspx > > at $7.90 each, not terrific but not too terrible either. > > > The only reason batteries are needed to run the NLS is the charger is way > > too small run run it directly. > > Interesting... From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Feb 7 22:52:04 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2009 23:52:04 -0500 Subject: Anyone have a line on batteries... In-Reply-To: <000701c989a8$37477230$0201a8c0@hal9000> References: <0KEM00JI6GWX8820@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> <200902071938.26657.rtellason@verizon.net> <000701c989a8$37477230$0201a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <200902072352.04491.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 07 February 2009 11:46:32 pm Scanning wrote: > Local store ( Ford Electronics, Southern CA ) has " D " size rechargeable > batteries with tabs spot welded on either end, 4.5 AmpHour for $10 . > Shipping might be a deal breaker... I've used the " C " and " AA " sizes to > replace dead cells in battery packs by solder the new tabs to the old tabs > of the cells surgically removed. > > Best regards, Steven Are these lead-acid though? Or something else... The different types are not at all interchangeable, at least as far as the charger is concerned. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Roy J. Tellason" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 4:38 PM > Subject: Re: Anyone have a line on batteries for the NLS > portableoscilloscope? > > > > >I've never seen single cells, but we did have some 4V units which > > > > were only two cells. > > > > > > Gates was a major provider of the single 2V cell in the "D" size with > > > tabs on one end. > > > > Yeah, I'd remembered that a bit later on... > > > > My stint in the battery retail store biz went from January of 1993 to > > October of 1995, so I'm a bit fuzzy about recalling some of those details > > these days. :-) > > > > > NLS used three of them but a 6V monolythic battery with the same outer > > > dimensions will also work fine as the tabs soldered to the rear board > > > for mounting and to create a series connection. > > > > The ones they make with multiple cells in a plastic case have a flat top > > that's rectangular in cross-section and that might be an issue, > > depending on the housing. A quick google gets me to this page: > > > > http://www.batteryprice.com/0819-00126v25ahcyclonleadacidbattery.aspx > > > > where there's a picture of one, what they're calling a "0819-0012 6v > > 2.5Ah Cyclon Lead Acid Battery". Not a bad price at $15.70, either, if > > it'll fit. The individual D sized cells are here: > > > > http://www.batteryprice.com/0810-0004cyclonbattery.aspx > > > > at $7.90 each, not terrific but not too terrible either. > > > > > The only reason batteries are needed to run the NLS is the charger is > > > way too small run run it directly. > > > > Interesting... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Feb 8 01:08:33 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 7 Feb 2009 23:08:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: xa 2.3.5 released Message-ID: <200902080708.n1878YFf012456@floodgap.com> The xa 6502 cross-assembler package has been updated to version 2.3.5. This version fixes a bug with the .bin pseudo-op and character sets, adds PETSCREEN and HIGH character sets, adds the .aasc pseudo-op, and has multiple small custodial and bug fixes. It will compile on most systems with an ANSI C compiler, can generate code for all NMOS and most CMOS variants of the 6502 and the 65816, and is known to work on Win32, most Un*ces and Mac OS X. It is licensed under GPL. http://www.floodgap.com/retrotech/xa/ -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- There are few problems that the liberal usage of high explosives can't cure. From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun Feb 8 11:02:51 2009 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2009 09:02:51 -0800 Subject: DSD Diags disk found Message-ID: <200902080902510513.2B97EF5C@192.168.42.129> Fellow techies, While cleaning up today, I came across an 8" floppy in good condition, labeled as follows: P/N 060025 REV B DSD 880 DIAGNOSTIC DISKETTE SINGLE DENSITY, BOOTABLE (DSDMON) Considering that I've not done any 'classics' collecting for years, I have no use for it. However, I suspect it should be archived and made available for others. First person to offer me postage/handling costs (say, $5) can have it. Thanks much. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "Quid Malmborg in Plano..." From dgahling at hotmail.com Sun Feb 8 12:12:07 2009 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 13:12:07 -0500 Subject: DSD Diags disk found In-Reply-To: <200902080902510513.2B97EF5C@192.168.42.129> References: <200902080902510513.2B97EF5C@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: how about making an image of it and posting it online? linux-use dd, windows-use rawcopy or something Dan > Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 09:02:51 -0800 > From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > CC: > Subject: DSD Diags disk found > > Fellow techies, > > While cleaning up today, I came across an 8" floppy in good condition, labeled as follows: > > P/N 060025 REV B > DSD 880 DIAGNOSTIC DISKETTE > SINGLE DENSITY, BOOTABLE (DSDMON) > > Considering that I've not done any 'classics' collecting for years, I have no use for it. However, I suspect it should be archived and made available for others. > > First person to offer me postage/handling costs (say, $5) can have it. > > Thanks much. > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, > Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com > kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m > "Quid Malmborg in Plano..." > > _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Messenger. Multitasking at its finest. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/messenger.aspx From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Feb 8 13:42:39 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 14:42:39 -0500 Subject: DSD Diags disk found In-Reply-To: References: <200902080902510513.2B97EF5C@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: <200902081442.40041.pat@computer-refuge.org> It's an 8" single-density floppy. Most people can't do that on a PC easily. Pat On Sunday 08 February 2009, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > how about making an image of it and posting it online? > linux-use dd, windows-use rawcopy or something > > Dan > > > Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 09:02:51 -0800 > > From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com > > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > > CC: > > Subject: DSD Diags disk found > > > > Fellow techies, > > > > While cleaning up today, I came across an 8" floppy in good > > condition, labeled as follows: > > > > P/N 060025 REV B > > DSD 880 DIAGNOSTIC DISKETTE > > SINGLE DENSITY, BOOTABLE (DSDMON) > > > > Considering that I've not done any 'classics' collecting for > > years, I have no use for it. However, I suspect it should be > > archived and made available for others. > > > > First person to offer me postage/handling costs (say, $5) can have > > it. > > > > Thanks much. > > > > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > > Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, > > Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com > > kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m > > "Quid Malmborg in Plano..." > > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows Live Messenger. Multitasking at its finest. > http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/messenger.aspx -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com Sun Feb 8 14:38:23 2009 From: kyrrin at bluefeathertech.com (Bruce Lane) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2009 12:38:23 -0800 Subject: DSD880 Diskette claimed Message-ID: <200902081238230089.2C5D42EC@192.168.42.129> The DSD 880 diagnostics diskette has been claimed. Jeff Kaneko was the lucky(?) winner. Thanks to all for your interest. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy, Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com kyrrin (at) bluefeathertech do/t c=o=m "Quid Malmborg in Plano..." From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Feb 8 15:06:45 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 16:06:45 -0500 Subject: DSD880 Diskette claimed In-Reply-To: <200902081238230089.2C5D42EC@192.168.42.129> References: <200902081238230089.2C5D42EC@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: <200902081606.45239.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 08 February 2009, Bruce Lane wrote: > The DSD 880 diagnostics diskette has been claimed. Jeff Kaneko was > the lucky(?) winner. Good, now the rest of us know who to harass about getting an image. :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Sun Feb 8 15:22:56 2009 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko at juno.com) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 21:22:56 GMT Subject: DSD880 Diskette claimed Message-ID: <20090208.132256.9103.2@webmail22.vgs.untd.com> Ah, now I have an excuse to pull all of my DEC stuff out of storage. ;^) -- Patrick Finnegan wrote: On Sunday 08 February 2009, Bruce Lane wrote: > The DSD 880 diagnostics diskette has been claimed. Jeff Kaneko was > the lucky(?) winner. Good, now the rest of us know who to harass about getting an image. :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org ____________________________________________________________ Compete with the big boys. Click here to find products to benefit your business. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/PnY6rw2USkyYum1s3vN5M8ubUB4x89IBhSwwv5iukh0iyIfFsTHMy/ From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Feb 8 15:57:27 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 16:57:27 -0500 Subject: DEC floppies on ebay Message-ID: <200902081657.28037.pat@computer-refuge.org> Is anyone here planning on bidding on this, and who's willing to image these disks? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220356462708 I'd be willing to get them just to make images, and if someone else wants the physical disks I'd be happy to go in on bidding on them, and send that person the disks after I make images of them. Or, if someone else wants to get them to make images themselves, that'd be fine too. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Feb 8 16:36:32 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 14:36:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: DSD Diags disk found In-Reply-To: References: <200902080902510513.2B97EF5C@192.168.42.129> Message-ID: <20090208142155.N51384@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 8 Feb 2009, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > how about making an image of it and posting it online? > linux-use dd, windows-use rawcopy or something If this is like the Dysan Digital Diagnostic Diskette, then that image won't be useable for anybody else, although it might reveal a little bit about the drive that read the image. The Dysan Digital Diagnostic Diskette can not be duplicated with an unmodified drive, no matter what software or special controller you might use. (dd, rawcopy, option board, Match-Point, etc.) The way that it works is by having sectors that are NOT in "correct" position, and seeing which ones the drive can read. If sector #1 is recorded off-track a little too close to the center of the diskette; #2 is recorded a little off-track a little too far from the center of the diskette; #3 is a little MORE too close to the center of the diskette; #4 is a little MORE too far from the center of the diskette, etc. If you try to read the track with a drive that is perfectly aligned, you get SOME sectors, and then errors. If your drive gets more even numbered than odd numbered sectors, etc. then you know which direction it is out of alignment. That's how it tests radial alignment! Other aspects of alignment are done with other DEVIATIONS from "normal" recording. You can NOT produce that kind of diskette on an unmodified drive. An "image" of the diskette would not be usable. However, an image of the diskette could be useful for copying and studying the software (bootable?) on the diskette that analyzes the "weird" formatting. Or, maybe an OPTICAL image of the diskette made using magnetic recording "disclosure fluid". Actually, that would be VERY interesting. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sun Feb 8 16:44:59 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 22:44:59 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Badly corroded battery... Message-ID: <960867.71007.qm@web23403.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi, My brother has requested to borrow a CD. So whilst hunting around for it I came across his old walkman. However, I had not realised that it still contained a battery in it. The walkman is over 15 years old, and since my brother moved out around 2002 it makes the battery atleast 7 years old! Here is a link to a page I quickly set up with some pics: http://www.geocities.com/aliensrcooluk/public/BatteryInWalkman.html The reason I am emailing the group, is because a power adaptor (wall wart) was sat underneath the walkman and has some brown paint-like marks on it. I am assuming this is from the battery and am wondering what is the safest way to clean it off without ruining the adaptor. The adaptor is used to run some of our modified table-top games (which originally ran from batteries, but have been modified so that they run from the adaptor instead). Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun Feb 8 16:54:25 2009 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt Vendel - Atarimuseum) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2009 17:54:25 -0500 Subject: DEC floppies on ebay In-Reply-To: <200902081657.28037.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200902081657.28037.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <498F62A1.8060407@atarimuseum.com> JCM always has good stuff... Curt Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Is anyone here planning on bidding on this, and who's willing to image > these disks? > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220356462708 > > I'd be willing to get them just to make images, and if someone else > wants the physical disks I'd be happy to go in on bidding on them, and > send that person the disks after I make images of them. Or, if someone > else wants to get them to make images themselves, that'd be fine too. > > Pat > From ray at arachelian.com Sun Feb 8 17:04:25 2009 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2009 18:04:25 -0500 Subject: Badly corroded battery... In-Reply-To: <960867.71007.qm@web23403.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <960867.71007.qm@web23403.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <498F64F9.3080703@arachelian.com> Andrew Burton wrote: > http://www.geocities.com/aliensrcooluk/public/BatteryInWalkman.html > > > The reason I am emailing the group, is because a power adaptor (wall wart) was sat underneath the walkman and has some brown paint-like marks on it. I am assuming this is from the battery and am wondering what is the safest way to clean it off without ruining the adaptor. It may already be ruined, but you can try an old toothbrush and a solution of white vinegar followed by distilled water and lots of drying - typically you can expect traces/contacts and other metal parts to have been eaten away and damaged. This presumes that the battery was an alkaline one - if so, the alkaline goo that seeped out of it probably has already damaged components/traces in the adaptor. Now if the wall wart was sealed well enough that nothing got in, no worries, otherwise, might be easier to build another. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Feb 7 16:38:20 2009 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2009 17:38:20 -0500 Subject: Anyone have a line on batteries for the NLS Message-ID: <0KEP00DUQW61IHX3@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Anyone have a line on batteries for the NLS > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Sat, 07 Feb 2009 19:32:31 +0000 (GMT) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> >> On Thu, 5 Feb 2009, Allison wrote: >> > The only reason batteries are needed to run the NLS is the charger is way >> > too small run run it directly. >> >> I found THAT out the hard way. >> When I sold my NLS215 at VCF, I had to sell it "AS-IS" because the >> batteries wouldn't take a charge. > >That's quite common with devics powered with rechargeable batteries -- >the charger on its own can't supply enough current to run the device. For the NLS 'scopes the battery is between the charge source and the scope power supply so if it's open (badly sulfated as the battery is lead acid gell type) the PS has to carry the load. It's only a charger. if you substitute a larger charger then you find the charge circuit does not have the capacity to start the unit (initial surge current). >Assuming the battery pack is just a battery (that is, no 'battery >management' circuitry), you can often run the unit from a bench power >supply connected to the battery wires _with the battery disconnected_. Of >course this assuems you have a suitable PSU... The pack in this case is just 3 2v cells and the "management" is the charge circuit on the rear board. In this case (nls miniscopes) a 6V PS can substitute for the battery at less tha 1A (must be connected to the ground and +6V termianls of the battery connection point internally). Only if the battery is removed first. Note that is the battery has failed (usually sulfated from not being kept charged) they tend to build corrosion around the terminal, they are best removed and recycled as any gelled lead acid battery should be. Since I use my miniscopes intermittently I've long since removed the battery and disconnected the internal charge circuit (pull the fuse). The battery area has a small board inserted to allow it to accept any voltage from 9 to 30V and run from that. Since I have a number of small 12V gell cells that fit nicely in the probe pocket of the carry case this proves more useful and maintainable. The change is completely reverseable and the ability to use a larger and longer lasting 12V battery as source is very handy. The NLS is somewhat unique as it uses a lead acid type rather than NiCd, Nimh, lithium or even common dry cells. In an emergency I have run it off 4 'D" sized alkaline cells in an external holder for many hours. Allison From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Feb 8 09:27:24 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 10:27:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: Source for 20Mhz. DIP Z80 Message-ID: They exist, and are listed by DigiKey and Mouser as the dreaded "non-stock" items. From past experience, this means they will not lift a finger without an order for 1000s in hand. Zilog has, in theory, a sample portal. But they've outsourced their web site to Elbonia and it does not function to the extent of being able to complete my registration. Anyone know a source for onsie-twosies on these? Steve -- From axelsson at acc.umu.se Sun Feb 8 13:25:03 2009 From: axelsson at acc.umu.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Axelsson?=) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2009 20:25:03 +0100 Subject: Norsk Data website In-Reply-To: <4765.1234033178@mini> References: <498CB27F.1020305@acc.umu.se> <4765.1234033178@mini> Message-ID: <498F318F.701@acc.umu.se> Brad Parker wrote: > =?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Axelsson?= wrote: > >> What I'm talking about? The new Norsk Data wiki website of course! >> > > very cool. > > Has any information about the Racal-Norsk KPS-5 or KPS-10 ever surfaced? > > Apparently they were multi user machines which ran zetalisp (lisp machine > lisp) and were based on one of the ND machines (ND-500?). > > One apocryphal story is that someone completed reverse engineered and > documented zetalisp for the project. That document would be a nice to > have in machine readable form... > > -brad > Thanks! I haven't seen any information about KPS-5 or KPS-10 except one short article that I found after your post. They were based on ND-550 and ND-570 respectively, with special extensions to the microcode. My only experience of it is that we had LISP on the school computer, a ND-100. I always wondered why they had gotten such a specialised language for that machine but maybe it is related to that development. /G?ran From james.elbon at earthlink.net Sun Feb 8 17:10:06 2009 From: james.elbon at earthlink.net (James Elbon) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 18:10:06 -0500 Subject: Sony CP/M machine? Message-ID: <313DC99448314B5F8E7BFF602086634E@nvidia> Mr. Fox, I just discovered your message on the Internet. What do you want to know about it. I still have an SMC 70 and SMC 70G, manuals, and accessories in the garage. I purchased my first one about 1984. They were so far ahead of their times. They were even Y2K compatible. The only one that was when the Y2K panic hit. Cheers, James From chrise at pobox.com Sun Feb 8 17:10:32 2009 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 17:10:32 -0600 Subject: GNT 3601 tape punch docs? In-Reply-To: References: <20090128162805.GG20244@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20090208231032.GN3515@n0jcf.net> On Thursday (01/29/2009 at 07:22PM +0000), Tony Duell wrote: > > > supply problem because as soon as you try to punch all eight holes with > > the front panel test button, the power LED dims and the punch jams, > > What type of mechanism does this punch use? In my experience there are 2 > basic types : > > 1) Solenoids to driectly operate the punch pins (that is, the punching > force comes entirely from the solenoid), and a (stepper) motor to move > the tape. For example the Facit 4070 > > 2) A continuously rotating camshaft (normally with a mains-powered > motor). The solenoids operate linkages (or clutches) to operate the punch > pins, the punching force comes form the motor, not the solenoids. Anther > solenoid opeates the tape feed mechanism, again the power comes from the > motor. For example the Teletype BRPE, Tally 420, etc. > > Needless to say the solenoids in the second type are much smaller and > take much less current. This unit, GNT 3601, is type #2 that you describe. The root of the problem was that the pins were seized in their slide-ways and when the little solenoids tried to push them, they could not. Only the pin for punching the feed hole was really movable. I loosened them with some alchohol, moved them back and forth a lot and then put a tiny amount of light oil on them. Free as a bird and smooth as can be now. > > apparently from lack of umph to complete the mission. It could also be > > jamming to start with and that causes the power drop I suppose. > > Can you tuen things by hand (power off, of course) and operate the > solenoids by hand to see if the mechanism can be got to work? External to the punch mechanism, everything seemed OK... but deep inside these pins were binding and nobody was gonna play that way. The solenoids are very tiny and completely enclosed inside the punch mechanism. The only thing external is a pulley around which goes a round belt over to a DC motor which provides the power. There's a bigger solenoid as you describe which advances the tape but that too is totally enclosed within the punch assembly. Now I'm working on figuring out the serial and parallel interfaces. The brains are an 8048 microcontroller and then it looks like the serial interface is handled by a classic old AY-3-1015 UART, which I'm assuming front-ends the parallel interface. Lots more discovery there... I obtained a manual for a GNT 4604 unit (thanks Bob!) and we'll see if any of the signals line up with that. Chris From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun Feb 8 18:15:25 2009 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt Vendel - Atarimuseum) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2009 19:15:25 -0500 Subject: [Spam] Source for 20Mhz. DIP Z80 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <498F759D.7020504@atarimuseum.com> Try netcomponents.com Curt Steven Hirsch wrote: > They exist, and are listed by DigiKey and Mouser as the dreaded > "non-stock" items. From past experience, this means they will not > lift a finger without an order for 1000s in hand. > > Zilog has, in theory, a sample portal. But they've outsourced their > web site to Elbonia and it does not function to the extent of being > able to complete my registration. > > Anyone know a source for onsie-twosies on these? > > Steve > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Feb 8 18:17:32 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 19:17:32 -0500 Subject: Anyone have a line on batteries for the NLS In-Reply-To: <0KEP00DUQW61IHX3@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0KEP00DUQW61IHX3@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 5:38 PM, Allison wrote: >>> On Thu, 5 Feb 2009, Allison wrote: >>> > The only reason batteries are needed to run the NLS is the charger is way >>> > too small run run it directly. > > For the NLS 'scopes the battery is between the charge source and the > scope power supply so if it's open (badly sulfated as the battery is > lead acid gell type) the PS has to carry the load. It's only a charger. > if you substitute a larger charger then you find the charge circuit > does not have the capacity to start the unit (initial surge current). That all sounds consistent with observed behavior. > In this case (nls miniscopes) a 6V PS can substitute for the battery at > less tha 1A (must be connected to the ground and +6V termianls of the > battery connection point internally). Only if the battery is removed first. > Note that is the battery has failed (usually sulfated from not being kept > charged) they tend to build corrosion around the terminal, they are best > removed and recycled as any gelled lead acid battery should be. OK. I may try that. I can probably use a bench-top supply, and now that I know the batteries are not made from unobtanium, I'll probably just remove them and drop them off at a Batteries Plus or wherever one disposes of non-alkaline batteries these days. > Since I use my miniscopes intermittently I've long since removed the > battery and disconnected the internal charge circuit (pull the fuse). > The battery area has a small board inserted to allow it to accept any > voltage from 9 to 30V and run from that. Since I have a number of small > 12V gell cells that fit nicely in the probe pocket of the carry case > this proves more useful and maintainable. The change is completely > reverseable and the ability to use a larger and longer lasting 12V > battery as source is very handy. Interesting. I have the schematics somewhere (I found them on the 'net after not too much searching), so I may give that a try > The NLS is somewhat unique as it uses a lead acid type rather than NiCd, > Nimh, lithium or even common dry cells. In an emergency I have run it > off 4 'D" sized alkaline cells in an external holder for many hours. Also an interesting suggestion. I will probably try some temporary method of powering this up first - it came to me in an inert state, so I can't be sure the device doesn't require repair first. Thanks for the all the good tips, Allison, -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 8 18:34:58 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2009 16:34:58 -0800 Subject: Anyone have a line on batteries for the NLS In-Reply-To: <0KEP00DUQW61IHX3@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0KEP00DUQW61IHX3@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <498F09B2.4317.9B92B081@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Feb 2009 at 17:38, Allison wrote: > The NLS is somewhat unique as it uses a lead acid type rather than NiCd, > Nimh, lithium or even common dry cells. In an emergency I have run it > off 4 'D" sized alkaline cells in an external holder for many hours. For portable devices that were heavy on the current usage, I think that lead-acid was prevalent. I've got a portable 4" color TV that takes them, as well as a SCM portable word processor. And wasn't there an early HP portable PC that also used them? The funny thing is that the D-sized 2-tab versions were very easy to get and very cheap. Times change, I guess. Cheers, Chuck From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Feb 8 20:00:40 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2009 20:00:40 -0600 Subject: DSD Diags disk found In-Reply-To: <20090208142155.N51384@shell.lmi.net> References: <200902080902510513.2B97EF5C@192.168.42.129> <20090208142155.N51384@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <498F8E48.7030900@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > The Dysan Digital Diagnostic Diskette can not be duplicated with an > unmodified drive, no matter what software or special controller you might > use. (dd, rawcopy, option board, Match-Point, etc.) I believe there's a 5.25" version that has various portions that are pure analog waveforms, too - you program your controller to read from those particular tracks and then observe the waveforms coming off the read head, using them to optimise alignment. The 8" version may not have been that "sophisticated"... Either way, copying / archiving is not really an option. Anyone know what machine was used to create such disks in the first place? cheers Jules From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Feb 8 20:23:06 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 18:23:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: DSD Diags disk found In-Reply-To: <498F8E48.7030900@gmail.com> References: <200902080902510513.2B97EF5C@192.168.42.129> <20090208142155.N51384@shell.lmi.net> <498F8E48.7030900@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090208181416.F59946@shell.lmi.net> > > The Dysan Digital Diagnostic Diskette can not be duplicated with an > > unmodified drive, no matter what software or special controller you might > > use. (dd, rawcopy, option board, Match-Point, etc.) On Sun, 8 Feb 2009, Jules Richardson wrote: > I believe there's a 5.25" version that has various portions that are pure > analog waveforms, too - you program your controller to read from those > particular tracks and then observe the waveforms coming off the read head, > using them to optimise alignment. That's what a "normal" [analog] alignment disk is about. I was not able to get an adequate cats-eye display using an NLS215 scope, which took away my best excuse for having one. > The 8" version may not have been that > "sophisticated"... The Dysan Digital alignment disks were available in 5.25" and 8" versions, with or without software provided - after all, there were a lot of mutually incompatable computers to use them on. I've heard of, but never used a 3.5" digital alignment disk. The 3.25" alignment diskettes that I had were all analog, and a bunch had been reformatted. > Either way, copying / archiving is not really an option. Anyone know what > machine was used to create such disks in the first place? If you could make those alignment changes realtime under software control, then that would be one helluva tool for recovering data from damaged and/or misaligned diskettes! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 8 20:43:11 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2009 18:43:11 -0800 Subject: DSD Diags disk found In-Reply-To: <20090208181416.F59946@shell.lmi.net> References: <200902080902510513.2B97EF5C@192.168.42.129>, <498F8E48.7030900@gmail.com>, <20090208181416.F59946@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <498F27BF.6634.9C0814C0@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Feb 2009 at 18:23, Fred Cisin wrote: > I've heard of, but never used a 3.5" digital alignment disk. > The 3.25" alignment diskettes that I had were all analog, and a bunch had > been reformatted. I've got a 3.5" as part of Landmark "Align-It"; basically a sector- this-way-or-that-way disk that uses software to tell you which way to go. I do have the Dysan 5.25" 48 tpi and 8" analog disks. Sadly, I'm missing a 5.25" 100 tpi one. > If you could make those alignment changes realtime under software control, > then that would be one helluva tool for recovering data from damaged > and/or misaligned diskettes! We did this with a 5.25" Micropolis drive mounted on a slab of aluminum with the (leadscrew) positioner driven through a 100:1 precision reduction gearbox. Took about 3 minutes to get from track 0 to track 76. I don't see why that couldn't be done today. Cheers, Chuck From pcw at mesanet.com Sun Feb 8 20:50:32 2009 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 18:50:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: DSD Diags disk found In-Reply-To: <498F27BF.6634.9C0814C0@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200902080902510513.2B97EF5C@192.168.42.129>, <498F8E48.7030900@gmail.com>, <20090208181416.F59946@shell.lmi.net> <498F27BF.6634.9C0814C0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Feb 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2009 18:43:11 -0800 > From: Chuck Guzis > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: DSD Diags disk found > > On 8 Feb 2009 at 18:23, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> I've heard of, but never used a 3.5" digital alignment disk. >> The 3.25" alignment diskettes that I had were all analog, and a bunch had >> been reformatted. > > I've got a 3.5" as part of Landmark "Align-It"; basically a sector- > this-way-or-that-way disk that uses software to tell you which way to > go. > > I do have the Dysan 5.25" 48 tpi and 8" analog disks. Sadly, I'm > missing a 5.25" 100 tpi one. > >> If you could make those alignment changes realtime under software control, >> then that would be one helluva tool for recovering data from damaged >> and/or misaligned diskettes! > > We did this with a 5.25" Micropolis drive mounted on a slab of > aluminum with the (leadscrew) positioner driven through a 100:1 > precision reduction gearbox. Took about 3 minutes to get from track > 0 to track 76. > > I don't see why that couldn't be done today. > > Cheers, > Chuck > cheap trick would be to just microstep the head positioner probably good to 1/4-1/8 of a track (if the leadscrew/band is that good) might need to approach from one side only because of leadscrew-nut backlash Peter Wallace From dgahling at hotmail.com Sun Feb 8 21:00:32 2009 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 22:00:32 -0500 Subject: DSD Diags disk found In-Reply-To: <498F8E48.7030900@gmail.com> References: <200902080902510513.2B97EF5C@192.168.42.129> <20090208142155.N51384@shell.lmi.net> <498F8E48.7030900@gmail.com> Message-ID: I always wondered about this in a way. I have a couple of 'alignment/test' disks for c64 drives, originals and copies. now as far as copies go, the drives were aligned perfectly, run through all tests, adjusted precisely, then made copies with those. so wouldn't that mean it was either 1) close enough or 2) the alignment of any other drive would only be to that drives setup, which was as precise as we could get? so in the end does it really matter all that much? Dan. > Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 20:00:40 -0600 > From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com > To: > Subject: Re: DSD Diags disk found > > Fred Cisin wrote: > > The Dysan Digital Diagnostic Diskette can not be duplicated with an > > unmodified drive, no matter what software or special controller you might > > use. (dd, rawcopy, option board, Match-Point, etc.) > > I believe there's a 5.25" version that has various portions that are pure > analog waveforms, too - you program your controller to read from those > particular tracks and then observe the waveforms coming off the read head, > using them to optimise alignment. The 8" version may not have been that > "sophisticated"... > > Either way, copying / archiving is not really an option. Anyone know what > machine was used to create such disks in the first place? > > cheers > > Jules > _________________________________________________________________ How fun is this? IMing with Windows Live Messenger just got better. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/messenger.aspx From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Feb 8 21:20:03 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 19:20:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: DSD Diags disk found In-Reply-To: References: <200902080902510513.2B97EF5C@192.168.42.129> <20090208142155.N51384@shell.lmi.net> <498F8E48.7030900@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090208190927.B59946@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 8 Feb 2009, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > so in the end does it really matter all that much? It does to me. When I do alignment, whether drive, or automobile (sorry, Jay), I want to set it as closely as I can to what it should be, not "out of spec, but close enough to work most of the time". From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 8 21:39:38 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2009 19:39:38 -0800 Subject: DSD Diags disk found In-Reply-To: References: <200902080902510513.2B97EF5C@192.168.42.129>, <498F27BF.6634.9C0814C0@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <498F34FA.26028.9C3BBF02@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Feb 2009 at 18:50, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > cheap trick would be to just microstep the head positioner > probably good to 1/4-1/8 of a track (if the leadscrew/band is that good) > might need to approach from one side only because of leadscrew-nut backlash Now that I think about it, one of the Drivetec 5.25" floppy drives would be well-suited to this, with only a bit of reprogramming of the 6800-family microcontroller. Positioning with two steppers--coarse and fine. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Feb 9 00:17:44 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 01:17:44 -0500 Subject: Anyone have a line on batteries for the NLS In-Reply-To: References: <0KEP00DUQW61IHX3@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200902090117.44897.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 08 February 2009 07:17:32 pm Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 5:38 PM, Allison wrote: > >>> On Thu, 5 Feb 2009, Allison wrote: > >>> > The only reason batteries are needed to run the NLS is the charger is > >>> > way too small run run it directly. > > > > For the NLS 'scopes the battery is between the charge source and the > > scope power supply so if it's open (badly sulfated as the battery is > > lead acid gell type) the PS has to carry the load. It's only a charger. > > if you substitute a larger charger then you find the charge circuit > > does not have the capacity to start the unit (initial surge current). > > That all sounds consistent with observed behavior. > > > In this case (nls miniscopes) a 6V PS can substitute for the battery at > > less tha 1A (must be connected to the ground and +6V termianls of the > > battery connection point internally). Only if the battery is removed > > first. Note that is the battery has failed (usually sulfated from not > > being kept charged) they tend to build corrosion around the terminal, > > they are best removed and recycled as any gelled lead acid battery should > > be. > > OK. I may try that. I can probably use a bench-top supply, and now > that I know the batteries are not made from unobtanium, I'll probably > just remove them and drop them off at a Batteries Plus or wherever one > disposes of non-alkaline batteries these days. I'd think that probably any place that handles lead-acid batteries should be able to take them off your hands. I'll probably be doing something similar with the gels I end up with in the UPSs I have to poke through here. I'd also figure that any place doing a fair amount of business in car batteries shouldn't object to adding some gels to the pile. > > Since I use my miniscopes intermittently I've long since removed the > > battery and disconnected the internal charge circuit (pull the fuse). > > The battery area has a small board inserted to allow it to accept any > > voltage from 9 to 30V and run from that. Since I have a number of small > > 12V gell cells that fit nicely in the probe pocket of the carry case > > this proves more useful and maintainable. The change is completely > > reverseable and the ability to use a larger and longer lasting 12V > > battery as source is very handy. > > Interesting. I have the schematics somewhere (I found them on the > 'net after not too much searching), so I may give that a try How much do those amount to in terms of bulk? I might be interested in taking a look if it's not too much. > > The NLS is somewhat unique as it uses a lead acid type rather than NiCd, > > Nimh, lithium or even common dry cells. In an emergency I have run it > > off 4 'D" sized alkaline cells in an external holder for many hours. > > Also an interesting suggestion. > > I will probably try some temporary method of powering this up first - > it came to me in an inert state, so I can't be sure the device doesn't > require repair first. > > Thanks for the all the good tips, Allison, > > -ethan I'm pleasantly surprised on this list with fair regularity. :-) That having been the case with these scopes, I'm beginning to wonder, how easy is it to find one these days, and what might it take to get my hands on one? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From frustum at pacbell.net Mon Feb 9 00:44:27 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 00:44:27 -0600 Subject: DSD Diags disk found In-Reply-To: <20090208190927.B59946@shell.lmi.net> References: <200902080902510513.2B97EF5C@192.168.42.129> <20090208142155.N51384@shell.lmi.net> <498F8E48.7030900@gmail.com> <20090208190927.B59946@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <498FD0CB.1060902@pacbell.net> Fred Cisin wrote: > When I do alignment, whether drive, or automobile (sorry, Jay), I want to > set it as closely as I can to what it should be, not "out of spec, > but close enough to work most of the time". Fred, Fred. Jay might have created the server where we virtually exist, but it does no good to invoke His name. Some* even have claimed that He is dead. I prefer to think that He has endowed us with free will to exercise good judgment in our discussions here. Some are better endowed than others, to be sure. Although He may seem an indifferent creator, He gave up his only Sun** for us that we may live in PC. Abend. *Evan **Sparcstation 20 From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Feb 9 01:15:40 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 08 Feb 2009 23:15:40 -0800 Subject: Anyone have a line on batteries for the NLS References: <0KEP00DUQW61IHX3@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <498FD81C.245AE964@cs.ubc.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On Sat, Feb 7, 2009 at 5:38 PM, Allison wrote: > >>> On Thu, 5 Feb 2009, Allison wrote: > >>> > The only reason batteries are needed to run the NLS is the charger is way > >>> > too small run run it directly. > > > > For the NLS 'scopes the battery is between the charge source and the > > scope power supply so if it's open (badly sulfated as the battery is > > lead acid gell type) the PS has to carry the load. It's only a charger. > > if you substitute a larger charger then you find the charge circuit > > does not have the capacity to start the unit (initial surge current). > > That all sounds consistent with observed behavior. > > > In this case (nls miniscopes) a 6V PS can substitute for the battery at > > less tha 1A (must be connected to the ground and +6V termianls of the > > battery connection point internally). Only if the battery is removed first. > > Note that is the battery has failed (usually sulfated from not being kept > > charged) they tend to build corrosion around the terminal, they are best > > removed and recycled as any gelled lead acid battery should be. > > OK. I may try that. I can probably use a bench-top supply, and now > that I know the batteries are not made from unobtanium, I'll probably > just remove them and drop them off at a Batteries Plus or wherever one > disposes of non-alkaline batteries these days. > > > Since I use my miniscopes intermittently I've long since removed the > > battery and disconnected the internal charge circuit (pull the fuse). > > The battery area has a small board inserted to allow it to accept any > > voltage from 9 to 30V and run from that. Since I have a number of small > > 12V gell cells that fit nicely in the probe pocket of the carry case > > this proves more useful and maintainable. The change is completely > > reverseable and the ability to use a larger and longer lasting 12V > > battery as source is very handy. > > Interesting. I have the schematics somewhere (I found them on the > 'net after not too much searching), so I may give that a try > > > The NLS is somewhat unique as it uses a lead acid type rather than NiCd, > > Nimh, lithium or even common dry cells. In an emergency I have run it > > off 4 'D" sized alkaline cells in an external holder for many hours. > > Also an interesting suggestion. > > I will probably try some temporary method of powering this up first - > it came to me in an inert state, so I can't be sure the device doesn't > require repair first. I can't speak to the NLS scope specifically, but it may be worth noting: in some equipment with rechargeable batteries the battery is an integral part of the power supply, providing both filtering and voltage limiting. Charging circuits don't need filter caps when the battery is fulfilling that function, so filter caps get left out of the design. An absent or open battery and the equipment gets pulsating DC. Chargers also may run at a much higher voltage than the battery. The battery electrochemistry together with series R losses in the charger pulls V down to target. HP calculators from the 70's are an example of this. The display goes squirrelly when run from the charger with the dual-AA NiCd battery pack removed. (I wonder how many good HP calculators were discarded because people mistakenly thought the electronics had failed.) I don't like keeping equipment stocked with batteries so I replaced the battery pack in my HP-21 with an (approximately) equivalent-circuit of a filter cap in parallel with a shunt regulator (actually just some diodes). The nice thing about this solution is because everything is in parallel no mods to the equipment were necessary. From halarewich at gmail.com Mon Feb 9 01:49:55 2009 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 23:49:55 -0800 Subject: Steve Wozniak on DWTS Message-ID: <6d6501090902082349p2dc50b9fya67c9bd23fff6a28@mail.gmail.com> hey I just found out that Steve Wozniak will be on the next season of ABC's Dancing With The Stars here is the link for eny one who is interested http://www.realitytvworld.com/news/abc-reveals-dancing-with-stars-eighth-season-celebrity-cast-8399.php Chris From halarewich at gmail.com Mon Feb 9 01:55:01 2009 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 23:55:01 -0800 Subject: Good docu on Mac Message-ID: <6d6501090902082355v5d4f7059tf010f9468cd3642@mail.gmail.com> Hey Just saw a good documentary Called Welcome To Macintosh on the history of the Mac and Apple here is a site for info http://www.welcometomacintosh.com/Welcome.html Chris From steve at cosam.org Mon Feb 9 02:53:26 2009 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 09:53:26 +0100 Subject: Source for 20Mhz. DIP Z80 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <95838e090902090053i5e1d384eh188a5260b8d134c@mail.gmail.com> 2009/2/8 Steven Hirsch : > They exist They sure do. > Anyone know a source for onsie-twosies on these? I got mine from Farnell, although that's probably a couple of years back now. Cheers, Steve From mike at brickfieldspark.org Mon Feb 9 04:03:00 2009 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 10:03:00 -0000 Subject: [personal] RE: Computer (museum) registers [was RE: Modules for LINC-8] References: <4985793B.20721.76368FB2@cclist.sydex.com><4986DA40.9060007@topinform.de><4987E416.3090504@update.uu.se><498891B9.6050106@update.uu.se><4988A043.9000300@update.uu.se><008c01c98777$c0fd8d30$961ca8c0@mss.local> Message-ID: <00a101c98a9d$972bf9f0$961ca8c0@mss.local> Rich, thanks for the info. Please let us (me) know of progress and any photos if there are any, I'd like to add the info to the PDP-7 page (www.soemtron.org/pdp7.html). To bring a PDP-7 back on-line will be great. Best regards, Mike Hatch Web - www.soemtron.org PDP-7 - www.soemtron.org/pdp7.html Email - mike at soemtron.org Looking for a PDP-7 (some hope!) and an ASR33 ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rich Alderson" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Friday, February 06, 2009 10:48 PM Subject: RE: [personal] RE: Computer (museum) registers [was RE: Modules for LINC-8] >> From: Mike Hatch >> Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2009 1:55 AM > >> Is the PDP-7 from U of Oregon still operational ?. > > At present, it is disassembled and awaiting reassembly. That is on the > schedule for this spring. We'll announce when it's ready for visitors. > > > Rich Alderson > Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project > Vulcan, Inc. > 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 > Seattle, WA 98104 > > mailto:RichA at vulcan.com > (206) 342-2239 > (206) 465-2916 cell > > > > > From cfox1 at cogeco.ca Mon Feb 9 04:42:41 2009 From: cfox1 at cogeco.ca (Charles E. Fox) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 05:42:41 -0500 Subject: Sony CP/M machine? In-Reply-To: <313DC99448314B5F8E7BFF602086634E@nvidia> References: <313DC99448314B5F8E7BFF602086634E@nvidia> Message-ID: <20090209104245.4DFB61996@fep3.cogeco.net> At 06:10 PM 2/8/2009, you wrote: >Mr. Fox, > >I just discovered your message on the Internet. What do you want to >know about it. I still have an SMC 70 and SMC 70G, manuals, and >accessories in the garage. I purchased my first one about 1984. They >were so far ahead of their times. They were even Y2K compatible. The >only one that was when the Y2K panic hit. > >Cheers, > >James > >No virus found in this incoming message. >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >Version: 8.0.233 / Virus Database: 270.10.19/1941 - Release Date: >02/07/09 13:39:00 Sorry, I have forgotten ever asking for information on the SMC 70. It must have been quite a while back. Charlie Fox Charles E. Fox 793 Argyle Rd. Windsor ON 519-254-4991 cfox1 at cogeco.ca www.chasfoxvideo.com From dgahling at hotmail.com Mon Feb 9 08:45:19 2009 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 09:45:19 -0500 Subject: DSD Diags disk found In-Reply-To: <20090208190927.B59946@shell.lmi.net> References: <200902080902510513.2B97EF5C@192.168.42.129> <20090208142155.N51384@shell.lmi.net> <498F8E48.7030900@gmail.com> <20090208190927.B59946@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: but if the disks are no long made, and there are an exceedingly rare number of them, what do you do then? if you're a very technical hobbyist, you may have the resources to have your own ability to do alignments, for just drive alignment, it's not rocket science. it's not the same as a car really. > Date: Sun, 8 Feb 2009 19:20:03 -0800 > From: cisin at xenosoft.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: DSD Diags disk found > > On Sun, 8 Feb 2009, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > so in the end does it really matter all that much? > > It does to me. > When I do alignment, whether drive, or automobile (sorry, Jay), I want to > set it as closely as I can to what it should be, not "out of spec, > but close enough to work most of the time". > > > _________________________________________________________________ So many new options, so little time. Windows Live Messenger. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/messenger.aspx From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Feb 9 10:05:10 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 08:05:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: My Jay was Re: DSD Diags disk found In-Reply-To: <498FD0CB.1060902@pacbell.net> from Jim Battle at "Feb 9, 9 00:44:27 am" Message-ID: <200902091605.n19G5AYp009300@floodgap.com> > > When I do alignment, whether drive, or automobile (sorry, Jay), I want to > > set it as closely as I can to what it should be, not "out of spec, > > but close enough to work most of the time". > > Fred, Fred. > > Jay might have created the server where we virtually exist, but it does > no good to invoke His name. Some* even have claimed that He is dead. I > prefer to think that He has endowed us with free will to exercise good > judgment in our discussions here. Some are better endowed than others, > to be sure. Although He may seem an indifferent creator, He gave up his > only Sun** for us that we may live in PC. > > Abend. > > > *Evan > > **Sparcstation 20 Listening to Jethro Tull's Aqualung and reading this post made an unusual theological contrast. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Born free. Taxed to death. ------------------------------------------------- From rborsuk at colourfull.com Mon Feb 9 10:19:04 2009 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 11:19:04 -0500 Subject: 8048 Intel programming languages Message-ID: Does anyone know of any programming languages (compilers)released for the intel 8048 microcontroller? Rob Rob Borsuk email: rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations Web: http://www.colourfull.com From scheefj at netscape.net Mon Feb 9 11:09:02 2009 From: scheefj at netscape.net (Jim Scheef) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 12:09:02 -0500 Subject: HUGE Lot of DEC Equipment 640 Pieces! - finally sells In-Reply-To: <6d6501090902082355v5d4f7059tf010f9468cd3642@mail.gmail.com> References: <6d6501090902082355v5d4f7059tf010f9468cd3642@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4990632E.8@netscape.net> This "collection" of DEC stuff was first listed at a buy it now price of way over a grand. The seller was too lazy to identify most of the pieces by more than a DEC model id. After relisting it at lower and lower starting bids, it finally sold. I hope the buyer who paid $195 feels he got his money's worth. Jim From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Feb 9 14:13:55 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 13:13:55 -0700 Subject: Anyone have a line on batteries for the NLS In-Reply-To: <200902090117.44897.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <0KEP00DUQW61IHX3@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> <200902090117.44897.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <49908E83.1050803@jetnet.ab.ca> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > I'm pleasantly surprised on this list with fair regularity. :-) That having > been the case with these scopes, I'm beginning to wonder, how easy is it to > find one these days, and what might it take to get my hands on one? If not, I am sure you can find a schematic for 3 or 4 tube scope. :) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 9 13:55:53 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 19:55:53 +0000 (GMT) Subject: GNT 3601 tape punch docs? In-Reply-To: <20090208231032.GN3515@n0jcf.net> from "Chris Elmquist" at Feb 8, 9 05:10:32 pm Message-ID: > External to the punch mechanism, everything seemed OK... but deep > inside these pins were binding and nobody was gonna play that way. > The solenoids are very tiny and completely enclosed inside the punch > mechanism. The only thing external is a pulley around which goes > a round belt over to a DC motor which provides the power. There's a > bigger solenoid as you describe which advances the tape but that too is > totally enclosed within the punch assembly. This sounds a bit like the GNT Model 34 mechanism, which I have the service manual for. In this punch, the punch pins are controlled by solenoids in a little slot-in moduke (8 solenoids and some simple linkages), there's a motor-driven camshaft and a couple of external soenoids for tape feed. IIRC the solenoids in that machine are similar to the coils used in 'Continntal' relays. The GNT 34 is suprisingly easy to dismantle, but only if you know the tricks. For example, the seletor unit (solenoid module) slides out after releasing a spring catch, the camshaft comes out from one side after loosening the bearing retainer, and so on. If you try to start by separating the side plates you get in a mess very quickly (please don't ask...) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 9 14:20:55 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 20:20:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: DSD Diags disk found In-Reply-To: <20090208190927.B59946@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Feb 8, 9 07:20:03 pm Message-ID: > > On Sun, 8 Feb 2009, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > so in the end does it really matter all that much? > > It does to me. And to me. I've had brand-new floppy drives (alas, the modern cheap ones are particularly bad) that are not in alignment according to my alignment disk. THey;'re proaly 'good enough to work', but I'm not going to trust my data to something like that. And of course I repair floppy drives, particularly in classic computers. Somtimes I need to dismantle something that will affect the aligmnet (a case in point being the MPI drives used in some HP9826/9836 machines, the dampers of which leak grease onto the chassis. To clean that up, you need to dismantle the taut-band mechanism, losing the alignment). But in anty case, if I am restoring a machine, I'll check the drive alignment, in the same way that I check PSU voltages, monitor alingment, and so on. > When I do alignment, whether drive, or automobile (sorry, Jay), I want to > set it as closely as I can to what it should be, not "out of spec, > but close enough to work most of the time". Agreed. I want to get things at least as accurate as they were when the unit was new. If not better. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 9 14:01:13 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 20:01:13 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Anyone have a line on batteries for the NLS In-Reply-To: <498F09B2.4317.9B92B081@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 8, 9 04:34:58 pm Message-ID: [Lead Acid batteries] > takes them, as well as a SCM portable word processor. And wasn't > there an early HP portable PC that also used them? Yes. The HP110 and 110+ computers (aka 'Portable' and 'Portable Plus') use a 6V lead-acid battery. 3 2.5Ah Cyclon cells (the ones we've been discusssiong) fit perfectly, and in fact the 110+ service manual shows such a battery. But many machines shipped with a Panasonic 'block battery' -- a cuboidal 6V lead-acid thing.Nowadays it's easier to get the Cyclon cells. The HP9114 disk drive (both versions) also uses a 6V lead-acid battery inside a housing that includes the charger PCB. Again, most units seem to have come with a 'block battery' but 3 Cyclon cells fit the hosuing too. And IIRC the HP3421 Data Acquisition unit (an HPIL/HPIB digital multimeter/relay scanner/etc) uses a lead acid battery. I forget the exact type, I know I found a common Yuasa one would fit with minor mechancial changes. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 9 14:34:33 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 20:34:33 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Anyone have a line on batteries for the NLS In-Reply-To: <498FD81C.245AE964@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Feb 8, 9 11:15:40 pm Message-ID: > I can't speak to the NLS scope specifically, but it may be worth noting: in > some equipment with rechargeable batteries the battery is an integral part of > the power supply, providing both filtering and voltage limiting. Charging > circuits don't need filter caps when the battery is fulfilling that > function, so filter caps get left out of the design. An absent or open battery > and the equipment gets pulsating DC. Worse than that, as you mention in passing, in some designs the battery acts as a shunt regulator and stabilises the votlage on one of the main supply lines. A number of classic computers used a 4-cell NiCd pack as the supply _and regulator_ for the nominal 5V line. The Epson HX20 certainly does, I think the PX8 does too. There _may_ be a protection circuit to limit the voltage if the battery goes open-circuit, but it's best not to depend on this. > > Chargers also may run at a much higher voltage than the battery. The battery > electrochemistry together with series R losses in the charger pulls V down to target. > > HP calculators from the 70's are an example of this. The display goes This depends -- a lot -- on the HP calculator. The 'classic series' _without card readers *35, 45, 55, 70, 80) have a mains adapter which is a spearate 4.2V voltage-regualted supply to run the calculator and a 55mA constant-current supply to charge the NiCd pack, These machines work fine -- and safely -- on the adapter with no batterty fitted. The 65 and 67 (with card readers) run the card reader chip off the battery directly. With these, plugging the adapter in without a battery to clamp the voltage can daamge the card reader sense amplidier chip. This is more of a problem with the 65 -- IIRC the chip was redesigned for the 67 and is a lot more tolerant of overvoltage. The Woodstock (20 series) and Spice (30 seires) use a 2-cell NiCd pack and a simple charger. Tghe battery here acts as a smoothing and votlage limiting deviee./ Without it the calculator diesn't work. Worse than that, on -C (continuous memory) models, certainly Woodstocks, the voltage from the charger with the machine turned off (and thus drawing little current) is still supplied to the RAM chip and is high enough to either damage the latter (STO/RCL/program storage doesn't work) or damage the ACT (processor chip) The Topcats (90 series) have a circuit in them to load the charger if the battery terminal voltage tries to exceed the Vss (logic supply) rail. This generally allows the machine to run from the charger with no battery installed, but the printer and card reader (97) won't work. Note that this cicuit will try to pull the battery voltage down to 0 if the power converter circuit fails (e.g. if the oscillator transistor goes open-circuit)m and gets hot and bothered doing so. One to watch for. Since this circuit is after the powr switch, I suspect the (very rare) 95C has the same problem with damage to the RAM chips if powered from the adapter with no battery fitted. I don't have a 95C, and when I borrowed one to invetigate I certain;y didn't try this!. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 9 14:13:14 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 20:13:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: DSD Diags disk found In-Reply-To: <498F8E48.7030900@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Feb 8, 9 08:00:40 pm Message-ID: > > Fred Cisin wrote: > > The Dysan Digital Diagnostic Diskette can not be duplicated with an > > unmodified drive, no matter what software or special controller you might > > use. (dd, rawcopy, option board, Match-Point, etc.) > > I believe there's a 5.25" version that has various portions that are pure > analog waveforms, too - you program your controller to read from those Analogue alignment disks exist (AFAIK) for all floppy drive siszes and demountale hard disks. I have a few, I'd likle to find the 8" and 3" (not 3.5") floppy ones though. But not at the 'new' price :-) > particular tracks and then observe the waveforms coming off the read head, > using them to optimise alignment. The 8" version may not have been that > "sophisticated"... They were all pretty much the same. You move the heads to the right cylinder and connect a 'scope to the outputs of the read amplifier. Trigger the 'scope off the index pulse and adjust the head position until the 2 lobes of the patter are the same size. The problem (for many people) is that you need a 'scope. I have a thing called a 'Microtest' which allows you to do a disk alignment using an _analogue_ aligment disk but no 'scope. It needs a PC (according to the manual, the minimum spec is 256K RAM, 1 serial port, any type of display adapter). The unit is a little box containing a microcontroller (8035 IIRC) and an ADC, which is linked to the serial port on the PCB. YOu cable the drive up to the PC as drive B: and run the speical software supplied. You select the drive type from a menu and it shows a diagram (drawn with IBM liue drawing characters) of the drive PCB showing where to connect 5 leads from the ADC box to the drive (IIRC these are the differential outputw of the read amplifier, ground, index pulse, and track 0 sensor). And then you put in the alignment disk and run through a seires of tests (motor speed, raidal alignment, track 0 sensor position, and so on). I find it works quite well. I've modified an old Amstrad PPC640 'laptop; to have a DC37 socket in place of the second floppy drive. I can then connect the drive under test to this,. plug in the Microtest and do the alignnmet. One tip. If you have a drive that's probably fairly well aligned but which you intend to dismantle, repair and then have to realign, mark the positions of the track 0 sensor, index sensor, hard posiitoner, etc before you remocve them. I've been known to step the hard to cylinder 0 on an exerciser (provided the drive still basically works) and measure the clearance etween the head carriage and the stop with feeler guages, for example). Then when you reassmble, put things back in as close to the original position as you can/ This will not be accurate enough to be properly aligned, but it will be near enough that you can detect the alignment pattern. Otherwise you can find youself moving the heads all over the place in an attempt to find even a trace of the pattern. > > Either way, copying / archiving is not really an option. Anyone know what > machine was used to create such disks in the first place? I would be very interested to find that out :-) -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Feb 9 14:49:55 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 12:49:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: DSD Diags disk found In-Reply-To: References: <200902080902510513.2B97EF5C@192.168.42.129> <20090208142155.N51384@shell.lmi.net> <498F8E48.7030900@gmail.com> <20090208190927.B59946@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20090209123613.W98701@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 9 Feb 2009, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > but if the disks are no long made, and there are an exceedingly rare number of them, > what do you do then? As the drives get rarer, the tools for fixing them PROPERLY get proportionately scarcer. Most people who use alignment disks, not just "a disk written on a good drive" understand their importance, and they often outlive the populations of the drives. For example, I have some 8" and 3.25" alignment disks, even though I RARELY use those drives. The most important aspect of alignment tools are that they MUST exceed the accuracy of the intended result. That CAN be achieved without necessarily buying old-stock. New alignment disks CAN be made - the specs, knowledge, and even most of the tooling is still around; they are just no longer in mass production. > if you're a very technical hobbyist, you may have the resources to have > your own ability to do alignments, for just drive alignment, it's not > rocket science. it's not the same as a car really. True. I can get a car to track "acceptably" without major tooling. I can do automotive frame alignment with laser pointers, magnets, my measuring tools, and a 24 inch pipe wrench. I PREFER to use a good alignment rack, it reduces the amount of effort. I can get a drive to read/write/format "acceptably" without major tooling. I can do drive alignment with a good scope, disclosing fluid, my measuring tools, and a hammer. Alignment disks SIGNIFICANTLY reduce the amount of effort. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Feb 9 14:46:02 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 20:46:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Anyone have a line on batteries for the NLS In-Reply-To: <49908E83.1050803@jetnet.ab.ca> from "bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca" at Feb 9, 9 01:13:55 pm Message-ID: > > If not, I am sure you can find a schematic for 3 or 4 tube scope. :) I am pretty sure I have a schematic for a 1-valve (other than the CRT) 'scope. Yes, there were soem semiconductor diodes in the PSU circuit, but no transistors or ICs (or other active components). It was published in one of the UK magazines back in the 1950s, and was intended for use in repairing valve TVs (where signal amplitudes were pretty hiyh). So there wa no Y amplifier, the input when to the Y plates. The vlave was, IIRC, a thyratron, used to make a simple timebase. -tony From toby at coreware.co.uk Mon Feb 9 14:51:16 2009 From: toby at coreware.co.uk (Tobias Russell) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 20:51:16 +0000 Subject: More PDP-11 questions Message-ID: <1234212676.12192.111.camel@spasmo> Hi, Apologies for the constant stream of questions at the moment, I hope I'm not consuming too much list bandwidth at the moment. I've brought my whole collection out of storage and I'm bringing them all back to working condition and going through a steep old learning curve with my Unibus machines! So here are the latest round of questions: 1. I have started work on a second 11/05 I have. At the moment it has a processor, an 8K core set, NPR cards and a pair of unibus terminators. At present when powered up the machine has its run light constantly on, shows what looks like a random set of lights on its address/data LEDs and doesn't respond on its console. I have tried swapping the CPU boards and core cards for known working cards with no success. I have also hooked up a scope and confirmed the power supply is supplying correct voltages. Any ideas on what could be causing the bus error? 2. I have a Plessy PM1116/B core card. This is a single slot solution consisting of driver/sense logic on a card and a core plane on a daughter board. Does anyone have any details/documentation on this card or any idea of what slot would be suitable to plug it into (on a 5 1/4" 11/05-8KW backplane). 3. I have an 11/34A (in 5 1/4" box) which is experiencing a similar constant run light problem to the 11/05. The machine has CPU cards, terminators, console card and a MOS memory board in it. With both terminators in, run light stays on. If I halt it, the bus error light is illuminated. If I remove the end terminator and power on, the console is responsive and I can deposit values into memory and read them back. As with the 11/05 I have connected a scope and checked the power lines are supplying the correct voltages without any oscillation. Any ideas? Many thanks, Toby -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Feb 9 15:13:51 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 13:13:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Alignment disks, and the creation thereof Message-ID: <493760.75650.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I've been reading the now increasingly mistitled thread on alignment disks, and it's gotten me thinking. What IS required to make alignment disks? I've always aligned malfunctioning floppy drives "the wrong way", using a known good disk - or an original software disk. On the Commodore 64 (and most systems, really), you can get the drives working well enough like this, but as others have pointed out, it's not the "right way". I just don't have any alignment disks. "Good enough" is much better than "not at all", and I don't mess with the drive alignment unless I have to. I'd love to be able to align drives properly though. And that requires an alignment disk. There are different kinds of alignment disks too - analog and digital, ones that are intended to be used with a special program on a particular computer, and those intended to be used with a scope. With today's modern machining technology, it should definitely be possible to create a system to write new alignment disks. Starting with a standard floppy drive, you could replace the stepper drive with something more precise and controllable. Then, you have to somehow accurately calibrate this whole thing. Is there a document out there that describes the track layout of a standard (say, 5 1/4" 48tpi, 40 track) diskette? There has to be a spec, one that describes exactly the distance between tracks, the width of a track, and the distance from the center hub to the beginning of the first track. If you had that information, and precision measurement tools, one could set up and calibrate the drive to spec. Then, of course, there needs to be a controller for the thing, a computer interface to control the precise positioning of the head, as well as being able to read/write to the disk. It's possible. It's beyond the equipment and tools at my disposal, but it's definitely doable for a hobbyist who has access to a machine shop and good tools. Anyone out there a machinist? :) -Ian From dgahling at hotmail.com Mon Feb 9 15:28:23 2009 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 16:28:23 -0500 Subject: Alignment disks, and the creation thereof In-Reply-To: <493760.75650.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <493760.75650.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: That's part of my questions too, as time goes on, these disks we have *will* eventually fail. the magnetic flux will waver, and data will be lost, they'll no longer be useful for alignment. and the longer time passes, the worse it gets, same too with the drives. that's part of what I was saying, for current conditions, "good enough" might be all we have, it's better than nothing. and as time goes on, we may be stuck with it. I'm curious if anyone out there would spend the time/money/effort to recreate these things properly, over time. and then, what do you do in one generation? or two? one is bad enough, none of us are getting any younger. I'm reminded of that question someone posted, about putting a computer and software in a time capsule, to be reopened in 50 years. turned out to be totally impractical (as the components wouldn't last). do we just preserve the software in some sort of digital format, and 'hope' that someone carries it on? at least in digital form, we can transfer it from media to media every few years and hope to keep it viable. that's one reason I'm digitizing all the software I have, I have rare stuff that will cease to exist if I don't. Dan. > Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 13:13:51 -0800 > From: ian_primus at yahoo.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Alignment disks, and the creation thereof > > I've been reading the now increasingly mistitled thread on alignment disks, and it's gotten me thinking. What IS required to make alignment disks? I've always aligned malfunctioning floppy drives "the wrong way", using a known good disk - or an original software disk. On the Commodore 64 (and most systems, really), you can get the drives working well enough like this, but as others have pointed out, it's not the "right way". I just don't have any alignment disks. "Good enough" is much better than "not at all", and I don't mess with the drive alignment unless I have to. I'd love to be able to align drives properly though. And that requires an alignment disk. > > There are different kinds of alignment disks too - analog and digital, ones that are intended to be used with a special program on a particular computer, and those intended to be used with a scope. > > With today's modern machining technology, it should definitely be possible to create a system to write new alignment disks. Starting with a standard floppy drive, you could replace the stepper drive with something more precise and controllable. Then, you have to somehow accurately calibrate this whole thing. Is there a document out there that describes the track layout of a standard (say, 5 1/4" 48tpi, 40 track) diskette? There has to be a spec, one that describes exactly the distance between tracks, the width of a track, and the distance from the center hub to the beginning of the first track. If you had that information, and precision measurement tools, one could set up and calibrate the drive to spec. > > Then, of course, there needs to be a controller for the thing, a computer interface to control the precise positioning of the head, as well as being able to read/write to the disk. > > It's possible. It's beyond the equipment and tools at my disposal, but it's definitely doable for a hobbyist who has access to a machine shop and good tools. > > Anyone out there a machinist? :) > > -Ian _________________________________________________________________ The new Windows Live Messenger. You don?t want to miss this. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowslive/messenger.aspx From coredump at gifford.co.uk Mon Feb 9 15:58:06 2009 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 21:58:06 +0000 Subject: Anyone have a line on batteries for the NLS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4990A6EE.5000600@gifford.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > Worse than that, as you mention in passing, in some designs the battery > acts as a shunt regulator and stabilises the votlage on one of the main > supply lines. The Microwriter does this, with four NiCad cells acting as a "5V regulator". Naturally, my Microwriter came with four dud cells, but I only paid a pound for it at a Bristol car boot sale! There's a photo of it on my "Organisers" page: http://www.gifford.co.uk/~coredump/org.htm -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Mon Feb 9 16:10:27 2009 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 14:10:27 -0800 Subject: Anyone have a line on batteries... References: <0KEM00JI6GWX8820@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> <200902071938.26657.rtellason@verizon.net> <000701c989a8$37477230$0201a8c0@hal9000> <200902072352.04491.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <001e01c98b03$3759bb00$0201a8c0@hal9000> Roy, Sorry for the delay, I saw something shiny and got distracted... They have two " D " size batteries. The 4.5 AH is a NiCad ( 1.25 VDC ) with welded tabs at either end. They also have a 2.5 AH Sealed Lead Acid Gel Cell ( 2 VDC ) with two tabs out the same end. I believe the first one is made by Cyclon. The other sizes ( i.e. AA, etc. ) are NiCad and other non-lead-acid families which I have used to replace dead cells in battery packs ( like for my Milwaukee cordless drill ). Hope this helps. Best regards, Steven > On Saturday 07 February 2009 11:46:32 pm Scanning wrote: > > Local store ( Ford Electronics, Southern CA ) has " D " size rechargeable > > batteries with tabs spot welded on either end, 4.5 AmpHour for $10 . > > Shipping might be a deal breaker... I've used the " C " and " AA " sizes to > > replace dead cells in battery packs by solder the new tabs to the old tabs > > of the cells surgically removed. > > > > Best regards, Steven > > Are these lead-acid though? Or something else... > > The different types are not at all interchangeable, at least as far as the > charger is concerned. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Roy J. Tellason" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > > Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 4:38 PM > > Subject: Re: Anyone have a line on batteries for the NLS > > portableoscilloscope? > > > > > > >I've never seen single cells, but we did have some 4V units which > > > > > were only two cells. > > > > > > > > Gates was a major provider of the single 2V cell in the "D" size with > > > > tabs on one end. > > > > > > Yeah, I'd remembered that a bit later on... > > > > > > My stint in the battery retail store biz went from January of 1993 to > > > October of 1995, so I'm a bit fuzzy about recalling some of those details > > > these days. :-) > > > > > > > NLS used three of them but a 6V monolythic battery with the same outer > > > > dimensions will also work fine as the tabs soldered to the rear board > > > > for mounting and to create a series connection. > > > > > > The ones they make with multiple cells in a plastic case have a flat top > > > that's rectangular in cross-section and that might be an issue, > > > depending on the housing. A quick google gets me to this page: > > > > > > http://www.batteryprice.com/0819-00126v25ahcyclonleadacidbattery.aspx > > > > > > where there's a picture of one, what they're calling a "0819-0012 6v > > > 2.5Ah Cyclon Lead Acid Battery". Not a bad price at $15.70, either, if > > > it'll fit. The individual D sized cells are here: > > > > > > http://www.batteryprice.com/0810-0004cyclonbattery.aspx > > > > > > at $7.90 each, not terrific but not too terrible either. > > > > > > > The only reason batteries are needed to run the NLS is the charger is > > > > way too small run run it directly. > > > > > > Interesting... From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Feb 9 16:06:36 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 16:06:36 -0600 Subject: Alignment disks, and the creation thereof In-Reply-To: <493760.75650.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <493760.75650.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4990A8EC.4070307@gmail.com> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > With today's modern machining technology, it should definitely be possible > to create a system to write new alignment disks. The question that popped into my head was "how long will floppies last?" - there's no point creating alignment disks if the existing media's all failed and there's no new stock being produced. I'm not sure how much life floppies have left in them - 10 years? 30? 100? The time might be better spent producing drop-in replacements for entire floppy disk units. It'll be sad when big ol' 8" and 5.25" drives truly are obsolete, but I suppose that day will come sooner or later. I think I'll miss the death-rattle of encountering a bad disk block, or even the grinding/squealing noise as the surface of a disk falls off and demolishes the drive head. Any magical "solid state" replacement should really include audio output and the ability to randomly lose bits of your data... :-) From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Feb 9 16:20:25 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 14:20:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Alignment disks, and the creation thereof In-Reply-To: <493760.75650.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <493760.75650.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20090209135255.K3398@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 9 Feb 2009, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > I've been reading the now increasingly mistitled thread on alignment > disks, and it's gotten me thinking. What IS required to make alignment > disks? I've always aligned malfunctioning floppy drives "the wrong way", > using a known good disk - or an original software disk. On the Commodore It may well be adequate for you. But, . . . I PRODUCE "original software disks", although admittedly WAY less than 20 years ago. If you end up "aligning" a drive for best readability using one of MY distribution disks (or even one of MICROS~1's), then we end up with a RESPONSIBILITY (could prob'ly get sued!) to make sure that they are properly/well aligned, not merely "good enough to work in a "known good" drive" (which might be FINE for your use). Yikes! People "aligning" drives to match MY drives??!? > With today's modern machining technology, it should definitely be > possible to create a system to write new alignment disks. Starting with > a standard floppy drive, you could replace the stepper drive with > something more precise and controllable. Then, you have to somehow > accurately calibrate this whole thing. Is there a document out there > that describes the track layout of a standard (say, 5 1/4" 48tpi, 40 > track) diskette? There has to be a spec, one that describes exactly the > distance between tracks, the width of a track, and the distance from the > center hub to the beginning of the first track. If you had that > information, and precision measurement tools, one could set up and > calibrate the drive to spec. Yes, the specs are readily available. It would not be a major feat of prototyping to build a drive that MAKES alignment diskettes. For RADIAL alignment, even I (grossly, totally incompetent as a machinist) could create a CRUDE digital alignment disk with specs and Harbor Freight tools!: Take a drive with a narrow head (96TPI or 100TPI), (The Micropolis lead screw, if not too worn (lash!), seems ideal), align it, ACCURATELY! add a dial indicator for more precision, maybe improve the clamping, maybe change the tunnel erase? record a few tracks at 48TPI, Record a track very slightly further out than spec, (you can manually rotate the lead screw a fixed amount) record the next track very slightly further IN than spec, record the next track further out from spec, the next one further in than spec, etc. Read some tracks. Do you get more errors on odd numbered or even numbered tracks? > Then, of course, there needs to be a controller for the thing, a > computer interface to control the precise positioning of the head, as > well as being able to read/write to the disk. You can make a stand-alone controller for the task - called a "drive exercisor" or "exOrcisor" Or, use a PC. Trivial software to convert a PC into a drive exercisor. > It's possible. It's beyond the equipment and tools at my disposal, but > it's definitely doable for a hobbyist who has access to a machine shop > and good tools. It actually wouldn't take much (see above). > Anyone out there a machinist? :) Although he won't admit to it, Tony is a better machinist than some professionals that I have dealt with (I ended up doing my own valve seat grinding, but sent out flywheel resurfacing, crank balancing, etc.) It might be worthwhile to give Tony a 100TPI drive, and get him to make some alignment disks. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Feb 9 16:22:33 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 14:22:33 -0800 (PST) Subject: Alignment disks, and the creation thereof In-Reply-To: <4990A8EC.4070307@gmail.com> References: <493760.75650.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4990A8EC.4070307@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20090209142127.T3398@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 9 Feb 2009, Jules Richardson wrote: > The question that popped into my head was "how long will floppies last?" - > there's no point creating alignment disks if the existing media's all failed > and there's no new stock being produced. I'm not sure how much life floppies > have left in them - 10 years? 30? 100? Just so long as I have READ capability until the last media is dead and gone. > I think I'll miss the death-rattle of encountering a bad disk block, or even > the grinding/squealing noise as the surface of a disk falls off and demolishes > the drive head. Any magical "solid state" replacement should really include > audio output and the ability to randomly lose bits of your data... :-) Ah HA! THAT is what is missing from simulation! From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Feb 9 16:26:27 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 14:26:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: DSD Diags disk found In-Reply-To: <498FD0CB.1060902@pacbell.net> References: <200902080902510513.2B97EF5C@192.168.42.129> <20090208142155.N51384@shell.lmi.net> <498F8E48.7030900@gmail.com> <20090208190927.B59946@shell.lmi.net> <498FD0CB.1060902@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <20090209142431.D5395@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 9 Feb 2009, Jim Battle wrote: > Jay might have created the server where we virtually exist, but it does > no good to invoke His name. Some* even have claimed that He is dead. I > prefer to think that He has endowed us with free will to exercise good > judgment in our discussions here. Some are better endowed than others, > to be sure. Although He may seem an indifferent creator, He gave up his > only Sun** for us that we may live in PC. > Abend. > *Evan > **Sparcstation 20 That's what I get for taking Jay's name in vain. We should always follow his commandments (or George Carlin's THREE). -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Feb 9 16:36:17 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 17:36:17 -0500 Subject: Anyone have a line on batteries for the NLS In-Reply-To: <49908E83.1050803@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <0KEP00DUQW61IHX3@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> <200902090117.44897.rtellason@verizon.net> <49908E83.1050803@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200902091736.17507.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 09 February 2009 03:13:55 pm bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > I'm pleasantly surprised on this list with fair regularity. :-) That > > having been the case with these scopes, I'm beginning to wonder, how > > easy is it to find one these days, and what might it take to get my > > hands on one? > > If not, I am sure you can find a schematic for 3 or 4 tube scope. :) Heh. I've had a number of those, usually with 5" tubes and recurrent rather than triggered sweep. The reason I'm looking at acquiring one of those NLS scopes is because they're so darned *small* by comparison. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Feb 9 16:34:00 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 16:34:00 -0600 Subject: Alignment disks, and the creation thereof In-Reply-To: <20090209142127.T3398@shell.lmi.net> References: <493760.75650.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4990A8EC.4070307@gmail.com> <20090209142127.T3398@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4990AF58.3050601@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: >> I think I'll miss the death-rattle of encountering a bad disk block, or even >> the grinding/squealing noise as the surface of a disk falls off and demolishes >> the drive head. Any magical "solid state" replacement should really include >> audio output and the ability to randomly lose bits of your data... :-) > > Ah HA! > THAT is what is missing from simulation! Well, the weight needs to be right too, so that it hurts appropriately (according to drive size) when you drop it on your foot ;) From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Feb 9 16:44:01 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 14:44:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Anyone have a line on batteries for the NLS In-Reply-To: <200902091736.17507.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <0KEP00DUQW61IHX3@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> <200902090117.44897.rtellason@verizon.net> <49908E83.1050803@jetnet.ab.ca> <200902091736.17507.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20090209144009.F6121@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 9 Feb 2009, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Heh. I've had a number of those, usually with 5" tubes and recurrent rather > than triggered sweep. The reason I'm looking at acquiring one of those NLS > scopes is because they're so darned *small* by comparison. Look for the model 230? On the 215 (15 MHz, dual trace) I could not get an adequate cat's-eye pattern for doing drive alignment (with an analog alignment diskette). Perhaps somebody with more skill and "tricks of the trade" might be able to, but the spec for alignment seems to be "20 MHz, dual trace" From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Feb 9 16:49:20 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 17:49:20 -0500 Subject: Anyone have a line on batteries for the NLS In-Reply-To: <20090209144009.F6121@shell.lmi.net> References: <0KEP00DUQW61IHX3@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> <200902091736.17507.rtellason@verizon.net> <20090209144009.F6121@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200902091749.21062.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 09 February 2009 05:44:01 pm Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 9 Feb 2009, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > Heh. I've had a number of those, usually with 5" tubes and recurrent > > rather than triggered sweep. The reason I'm looking at acquiring one of > > those NLS scopes is because they're so darned *small* by comparison. > > Look for the model 230? Are they out there? At all easy to find? Expensive? > On the 215 (15 MHz, dual trace) I could not get an adequate cat's-eye > pattern for doing drive alignment (with an analog alignment diskette). > Perhaps somebody with more skill and "tricks of the trade" might be able > to, but the spec for alignment seems to be "20 MHz, dual trace" Even still I'd find it useful for lesser tasks. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Mon Feb 9 17:09:31 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 23:09:31 +0000 Subject: Alignment disks, and the creation thereof In-Reply-To: <493760.75650.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <493760.75650.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4990B7AB.1060301@philpem.me.uk> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > With today's modern machining technology, it should definitely be possible > to create a system to write new alignment disks. Starting with a standard > floppy drive, you could replace the stepper drive with something more > precise and controllable. Like? A voice-coil actuator /might/ be more accurate than a stepper, but you still need a servo system to align it. Ladies and gentlemen, meet catch-22: you want to write the servo tracks, but you need the servo tracks to write the servo tracks... > Is there a document out there that describes the track > layout of a standard (say, 5 1/4" 48tpi, 40 track) diskette? There has to > be a spec, one that describes exactly the distance between tracks, the > width of a track, and the distance from the center hub to the beginning of > the first track. If you had that information, and precision measurement > tools, one could set up and calibrate the drive to spec. 8-inch formats: ECMA-58, 59 and 69 5.25-inch formats: ECMA-66, 70, 78 and 99 3.5-inch formats: ECMA-100, 125 and The FAT filesystem is also standardised -- ECMA-107 All of these wonderful documents are downloadable completely free of charge from > Then, of course, there needs to be a controller for the thing, a computer > interface to control the precise positioning of the head, as well as being > able to read/write to the disk. I forget, are we fans of open-source hardware here? As in, circuit diagrams, firmware, microcode, and operating software / APIs? My USB disc analyser is "on the bench" and the prototype is talking to the PC quite happily. Still working on getting the PIC and FPGA to talk, though. The readback HDL code and RAM interface are proven working and pass the timing simulations and testbench, but there's a slight difference between "works in the simulator" and "works on the PCB". The plan (at the moment) is to release the design, firmware and microcode some time in July or August. This is slightly complicated by the fact that my final-year BSc project just happens to be... "A hardware and software solution for recovering data from obsolete flexible disk formats" The software is "interesting". I've got a soft-PLL which seems to work quite nicely (it tracks the drive speed on a bit-by-bit basis, and stores the decoded bit *and* the deviation from normal). Of course, I may well need a drive that's having speed regulation issues in order to prove that it can track the speed correctly... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Feb 9 17:11:15 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 18:11:15 -0500 Subject: Alignment disks, and the creation thereof In-Reply-To: <4990AF58.3050601@gmail.com> References: <493760.75650.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4990A8EC.4070307@gmail.com> <20090209142127.T3398@shell.lmi.net> <4990AF58.3050601@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 9, 2009 at 5:34 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote: >>> >>> I think I'll miss the death-rattle of encountering a bad disk block, or >>> even the grinding/squealing noise as the surface of a disk falls off and >>> demolishes the drive head. Heard that plenty of times. My first head crash was an RK05F. :-( >> Ah HA! >> THAT is what is missing from simulation! > > Well, the weight needs to be right too, so that it hurts appropriately > (according to drive size) when you drop it on your foot ;) Fortunately, I have yet to drop much of anything vintage on my foot (but I've gotten plenty of nicks and pinches racking and unracking disk drives). For the record, I do *not* want to drop either of my largest two drives on a foot (DEC RA81 and CDC 9766). -ethan From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Feb 9 18:02:10 2009 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 16:02:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Alignment disks, and the creation thereof In-Reply-To: <4990B7AB.1060301@philpem.me.uk> References: <493760.75650.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4990B7AB.1060301@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: On Mon, 9 Feb 2009, Philip Pemberton wrote: > > Of course, I may well need a drive that's having speed regulation issues in > order to prove that it can track the speed correctly... > That's easy enough to do, just pinch the disk sleeve while the drive is running. The more pressure you apply, the slower it goes. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Feb 9 17:33:00 2009 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 23:33:00 -0000 Subject: Alignment disks, and the creation thereof In-Reply-To: <20090209135255.K3398@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <92178866C2144BA887C4B49A6F5FA29C@AntonioPC> cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > Take a drive with a narrow head (96TPI or 100TPI), (The Never having build a drive from rocks isn't going to stop me from speculating. Given that there must be engineering drawings around and so on (and assuming that appropriate permissions - if any - are obtained to replicate such drives), I assumed that a well equipped hobbyist could put together the mechanical aspects of a drive. (Alternatively, throw an appropriate sum towards a machine shop). I'm also assuming that some parts are likely to still be available: you don't need an original motor - just one with the right characteristics (or which can be modified). But what about specialist parts that are likely to be unique to a drive? Once all the existing drive heads are dead, how difficult would it be to produce a suitable head for a 8" drive or a 5.25" drive or a 3.5" drive? BTW: I'm also assuming that if you can get a working drive built then you can also fairly easily modify it to write off-track at will in a deterministic way ... just a simple matter of tolerances, no? Are there any other parts (other than the head) which would be difficult to fabricate from scratch? Antonio From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Feb 9 18:25:58 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 16:25:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: Alignment disks, and the creation thereof In-Reply-To: <92178866C2144BA887C4B49A6F5FA29C@AntonioPC> Message-ID: <639569.41129.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Mon, 2/9/09, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > But what about specialist parts that are likely to be > unique > to a drive? Once all the existing drive heads are dead, how > difficult would it be to produce a suitable head for a > 8" drive > or a 5.25" drive or a 3.5" drive? There's not much point in building a device to write alignment disks if all existing disk drives (i.e. what we're going to be aligning) are gone. I've heard this doom and gloom talk about "when all the drives are dead" and "when nothing is left to read $MEDIA" - and while I admit that these things are likely to happen eventually, I also don't believe it's a problem for any of us. Working examples of common microcomputer hardware is everywhere. The trick is to maintain it. I don't see any problem in keeping an Apple IIe in operational condition so that it will still work in the year 2050. And, it's not like this stuff goes away completely. Spring-driven phonographs are still around. Wire recorders are still around. And floppy drives will still be around in 20 years. And yes, media will age - but a lot of it should still be readable, and Athana still makes floppy disks to this day. You can get new media now. I have disks from the 70's that still work fine. But, we're drifting off-topic again. The question is really "Can a hobbyist, with modern technology, build a device to write new alignmnent disks?". I definitely think so. Such a device would definitely be a mix of new and old parts. I mean, why reinvent the disk drive? The basic disk motor, heads, frame, etc. should be fine. The only thing I think that could use an upgrade would be the positioner. Voice coil positioning isn't really what we want here. The only thing we care about is precision, not speed. A stepper would work, just maybe one that's more precise than the one in the drive - or perhaps one that's gear reduced. A leadscrew based drive might be a good candidate, with some kind of precision servo on it. It doesn't matter how fast it is, just as long as it's accurate. Who cares if it takes ten minutes to write an alignment disk? This old equipment can be kept functioning for a very long time - provided that it's maintained. And part of maintaining it is keeping it in good alignment. -Ian From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Feb 9 18:40:46 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 16:40:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: Alignment disks, and the creation thereof In-Reply-To: <639569.41129.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <639569.41129.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20090209163316.Q6121@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 9 Feb 2009, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > But, we're drifting off-topic again. The question is really "Can a > hobbyist, with modern technology, build a device to write new alignmnent > disks?". I definitely think so. Such a device would definitely be a mix > of new and old parts. I mean, why reinvent the disk drive? The basic > disk motor, heads, frame, etc. should be fine. > The only thing I think that could use an upgrade would be the > positioner. Voice coil positioning isn't really what we want here. The > only thing we care about is precision, not speed. A stepper would work, > just maybe one that's more precise than the one in the drive - or > perhaps one that's gear reduced. A leadscrew based drive might be a good > candidate, with some kind of precision servo on it. It doesn't matter > how fast it is, just as long as it's accurate. Who cares if it takes ten > minutes to write an alignment disk? ~30 years ago, I took an SA400, added an additional tiny pointer and made labelled calibration marks alongside the spiral groove. It was CERTAINLY useless for alignment, but it worked GREAT for introducing an OS class to the basics of what a drive did. "watch as it goes to track 0 to read the boot sector." "Notice the return to the directory track after it writes the data." I had a few students who couldn't understand the fundamental problems with SMARTDRV, including re-arranged write sequence, until I went through the process a few times, and then said, "What happens if the power goes away NOW?" The drive is long gone, but I occsaionally [not recently] stumble across some of my extra SA400 groove disks. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 9 19:10:08 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 17:10:08 -0800 Subject: Alignment disks, and the creation thereof In-Reply-To: <639569.41129.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <92178866C2144BA887C4B49A6F5FA29C@AntonioPC>, <639569.41129.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49906370.25669.A0D91475@cclist.sydex.com> Back in the day, I had a couple of friends who landed jobs at Jugi Tandon's little "R&D" operation on Coleman Rd. near the San Jose Airport. Most of what they did was come in after 10 AM and leave before 4 PM (with the exception of the receptionist), but there were one or two interesting things there. One was some sort of servo writer/calibration rig for hard drives. Basically a pneumatic piston (powered by a tank of nitrogen) rigged up with a laser interferometer, all mounted on a 4" thick slab of granite. I never did get the scoop on what was going on exactly, as we left for a beer-filled afternoon and the subject never came up. But heck, an enterprising hobbyist could create his own calibration writer by salvaging the positioner out of a CD-ROM drive or perhaps the head and positioner both out of a 5.25" hard drive. Floppy drives aren't rocket science. But it's the media that I'm most concerned about. Anyone know where to get floptical media for my 20 MB Insite drive? Or some 6MB formatted blanks for my Drivetec? Or some 3.25" media for my Dysan drives? Cheers, Chuck From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Feb 9 19:06:57 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 19:06:57 -0600 Subject: Alignment disks, and the creation thereof In-Reply-To: <639569.41129.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <639569.41129.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4990D331.8070208@gmail.com> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > I've heard this doom and gloom talk about "when all the drives are dead" > and "when nothing is left to read $MEDIA" - and while I admit that these > things are likely to happen eventually, I also don't believe it's a problem > for any of us. I admit I do tend to be interested in trying to preserve things for longer than my own lifespan :-) > Working examples of common microcomputer hardware is everywhere. The trick > is to maintain it. I don't see any problem in keeping an Apple IIe in > operational condition so that it will still work in the year 2050. But how do you "maintain" floppy media? Sure, the machines can be kept going - replacing a chip here and there, or when supplies of those chips have gone, by simulating the device's function in whatever logic is flavour of the period. But it seems apparent that floppies fail - either through wear or natural deterioration. You could simulate the drive and media (as I mentioned), but then it's not "floppy disk" any more. I don't think anyone's going to invest the time and money needed to truly preserve floppies intact; that sounds like a lot of expensive analysis into why binders fail, and a lot of expensive research to then fix the problem - a problem that almost nobody in the commercial arena cares about. I suppose someone might magic up a way of creating DIY floppies from scratch in a home lab, but I'm not holding my breath. > And, it's not like this stuff goes away completely. Spring-driven > phonographs are still around. Wire recorders are still around. And floppy > drives will still be around in 20 years. And yes, media will age - but a > lot of it should still be readable, and Athana still makes floppy disks to > this day. You can get new media now. I have disks from the 70's that still > work fine. My *guess* would be that there'll still be a lot of floppies readable in 20 years - maybe somewhere around 50% or 60% of what we have now. But in 50 or 100 years? I think that one day they'll be gone. (note that I'm talking *using* here - I don't doubt that someone will magic up a no-contact way of reading floppy contents one day...) > But, we're drifting off-topic again. We do that a lot :) > The question is really "Can a > hobbyist, with modern technology, build a device to write new alignmnent > disks?". I definitely think so. Such a device would definitely be a mix of > new and old parts. I mean, why reinvent the disk drive? The basic disk > motor, heads, frame, etc. should be fine. Yep, it could be done. But how rare are alignment disks? I was forever finding 5.25" ones, so there never seemed any particular shortage to me (I gave up stockpiling, and just kept a couple of them). Other sizes might be different, but I suspect there are a good number of 8" ones around amongst collectors who have significant quantities of 8" hardware. Not so sure about 3.5", 3" etc. though. From bryan.pope at comcast.net Mon Feb 9 19:25:26 2009 From: bryan.pope at comcast.net (Bryan Pope) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 20:25:26 -0500 Subject: Alignment disks, and the creation thereof In-Reply-To: <4990D331.8070208@gmail.com> References: <639569.41129.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4990D331.8070208@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4990D786.9070307@comcast.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > > But how do you "maintain" floppy media? > > Sure, the machines can be kept going - replacing a chip here and > there, or when supplies of those chips have gone, by simulating the > device's function in whatever logic is flavour of the period. > > But it seems apparent that floppies fail - either through wear or > natural deterioration. You could simulate the drive and media (as I > mentioned), but then it's not "floppy disk" any more. > > I don't think anyone's going to invest the time and money needed to > truly preserve floppies intact; that sounds like a lot of expensive > analysis into why binders fail, and a lot of expensive research to > then fix the problem - a problem that almost nobody in the commercial > arena cares about. > That is already being done for the Commodore 64 with the .G64 file format which is a GCR encoded 1541 disk image. This copies everything including the protection. See http://c64preservation.com/ . Cheers, Bryan > I suppose someone might magic up a way of creating DIY floppies from > scratch in a home lab, but I'm not holding my breath. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Feb 9 19:57:13 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 17:57:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Anyone have a line on batteries for the NLS In-Reply-To: <200902091749.21062.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <0KEP00DUQW61IHX3@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> <200902091736.17507.rtellason@verizon.net> <20090209144009.F6121@shell.lmi.net> <200902091749.21062.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20090209174423.K12887@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 9 Feb 2009, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > Look for the model 230? > Are they out there? At all easy to find? Expensive? not common, but there are some. I saw an MS-15 (single trace? 15MHz?) that is fairly cheap From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Feb 9 20:16:55 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 18:16:55 -0800 Subject: 8048 Intel programming languages In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > From: rborsuk at colourfull.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 11:19:04 -0500 > Subject: 8048 Intel programming languages > > Does anyone know of any programming languages (compilers)released for > the intel 8048 microcontroller? > > > Rob > > Hi I recall a PLM-51 but I don't recall anything other than the assembler for the 48 family. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_022009 From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Feb 9 20:34:15 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 18:34:15 -0800 Subject: KEEP annoucement Message-ID: <4990E7A7.30109@bitsavers.org> From another mailing list: > I am glad to announce, that a major European research project, which is related to the preservation of complex digital artefacts, has just started. KEEP (Keeping Emulation Environments Portable) is funded by the European Community with 3,15 Mio. Euro will go on from now for three years. Aim of the project is to utilize the preservation tools, which are mainly created in the gamer community, for a broader range of users and purposes. The impact of the project lies also in the structure of the consortium itself: for the first time traditional memory institutions like the national libraries of France, Germany and Netherlands and researchers with a background in humanitities (University of Portsmouth) come together with organisations specialized in games resp. their preservation (Computer Game Museum, European Games Developer Federation ) within a common research effort in such a scale. I am pretty sure, that we will be able to boost the awareness of the need to preserve the gaming culture on that basis and of course provide concrete preservation tools and interfaces to do the job. > > More details about the project can be found here: > http://www.computerspielemuseum.de/index.php?lg=en&main=News&site=02:00:00&id=186 From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Feb 9 20:39:55 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 18:39:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Alignment disks, and the creation thereof In-Reply-To: References: <493760.75650.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4990B7AB.1060301@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <20090209183226.Q16670@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 9 Feb 2009, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Of course, I may well need a drive that's having speed regulation issues in > order to prove that it can track the speed correctly... On the Tandon TM100 series, the motor speed control is usually very accessible on the back of the drive From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Feb 9 20:45:01 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 18:45:01 -0800 (PST) Subject: Alignment disks, and the creation thereof In-Reply-To: <92178866C2144BA887C4B49A6F5FA29C@AntonioPC> References: <92178866C2144BA887C4B49A6F5FA29C@AntonioPC> Message-ID: <20090209184052.W16670@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 9 Feb 2009 arcarlini at iee.org wrote: > Never having build a drive from rocks isn't going to stop me > from speculating. old drives are usually cheaper than rocks, and sometimes they don't require as much machining > Are there any other parts (other than the head) which would be > difficult to fabricate from scratch? I have a hard enough time with door pins on TM100 drives. But, it would seem that the media and heads would be the only part that couldn't be done in a reasonably well equipped garage. From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Mon Feb 9 21:55:29 2009 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 19:55:29 -0800 Subject: 8048 Intel programming languages References: Message-ID: <002d01c98b33$6a7b0590$0201a8c0@hal9000> Rob, Do you want to do a target compile to the 8048 or do you want to run something like Tiny BASIC or FORTH on it ?? Best regards, Steven ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Borsuk" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 8:19 AM Subject: 8048 Intel programming languages > Does anyone know of any programming languages (compilers)released for > the intel 8048 microcontroller? > > > Rob From rborsuk at colourfull.com Mon Feb 9 22:02:42 2009 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 23:02:42 -0500 Subject: 8048 Intel programming languages In-Reply-To: <002d01c98b33$6a7b0590$0201a8c0@hal9000> References: <002d01c98b33$6a7b0590$0201a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <314AED86-CF35-44E5-B032-C2D70BC01946@colourfull.com> Steven, Either one would be acceptable. I was looking for an alternative to assembly. Like Dwight, I haven't found anything beyond assembler for the 8048 but I was hoping someone on the list has bumped into something. Rob On Feb 9, 2009, at 10:55 PM, Scanning wrote: > Rob, > > Do you want to do a target compile to the 8048 or do you want to run > something like Tiny BASIC or FORTH on it ?? > > Best regards, Steven > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robert Borsuk" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 8:19 AM > Subject: 8048 Intel programming languages > > >> Does anyone know of any programming languages (compilers)released for >> the intel 8048 microcontroller? >> >> >> Rob > From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Tue Feb 10 00:08:20 2009 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 07:08:20 +0100 Subject: Alignment disks, and the creation thereof In-Reply-To: <639569.41129.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <639569.41129.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <499119D4.3050701@bluewin.ch> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > I've heard this doom and gloom talk about "when all the drives are dead" and "when nothing is left to read $MEDIA" - and while I admit that these things are likely to happen eventually, I also don't believe it's a problem for any of us. > Your are wrong. It might be true for the common formats, but there are drives out there were the number of functioning units is approaching zero. Try finding an Honeywell-Bull D100 "Cynthia" series cartridge drive or media for instance... Jos From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Feb 10 00:18:24 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 22:18:24 -0800 Subject: Alignment disks, and the creation thereof In-Reply-To: <20090209184052.W16670@shell.lmi.net> References: <92178866C2144BA887C4B49A6F5FA29C@AntonioPC> <20090209184052.W16670@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: Hi I'd say that one should be able to create an alignment disk. There are twobasic types I've seen. One should be relatively easy the other is a little tougher. The tougher one is the analog one where two signals are recorded right next to each other and one is 1 cycle per revolution different than the other. This generates the cats eye. The problem making this type is creating the track width data that over laps. Most head also have an erase field that would need to be turned off. This is used to clear any noise from older misaligned heads. The next is getting the overwriting just right so the center of the signal is exactly on the alignment track. The next type is realively easy to create since it requires little modification other than a method of moving the head by small amounts. One records small burst of signal with different radial distance around the disk. The trick is here that when looking at the output of the amplifier, one sees steps up and down if it is aligned well and just steps up or just down if off. This just reqires a fine adjustement of the head possition and a timed control of the write signal. A micrometer should be enough to measure the position. The trick is to know when the head is exactly aligned. I suspect that the best way here is to write a signal and then use some of the magnetic fluid to locate the track written. Once the head location is calibrated, one can use a uP to create the burst. I'm sure I could create this at home. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live?: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect. http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_allup_howitworks_022009 From frustum at pacbell.net Tue Feb 10 00:49:46 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 00:49:46 -0600 Subject: Alignment disks, and the creation thereof In-Reply-To: References: <92178866C2144BA887C4B49A6F5FA29C@AntonioPC> <20090209184052.W16670@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4991238A.8080509@pacbell.net> dwight elvey wrote: > Hi > I'd say that one should be able to create an alignment > disk. There are twobasic types I've seen. One should be > relatively easy the other is a little tougher. I'd argue that it is far easier to build a drum data storage device, yet nobody has done it. "It doesn't seem too hard..." is easy to say until you try it. Sure, it is possible, but it is moot if nobody is motivated enough to actually do it. From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Tue Feb 10 01:03:56 2009 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 08:03:56 +0100 Subject: More PDP-11 questions In-Reply-To: <1234212676.12192.111.camel@spasmo> References: <1234212676.12192.111.camel@spasmo> Message-ID: > From: toby at coreware.co.uk > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 20:51:16 +0000 > Subject: More PDP-11 questions > > ... snip some text ... > > 3. I have an 11/34A (in 5 1/4" box) which is experiencing a similar > constant run light problem to the 11/05. The machine has CPU cards, > terminators, console card and a MOS memory board in it. With both > terminators in, run light stays on. If I halt it, the bus error light is > illuminated. > > If I remove the end terminator and power on, the console is responsive > and I can deposit values into memory and read them back. > > Any ideas? > > Many thanks, > Toby Hi Toby, the problem in your 11/34 sounds like a non-continuous grant chain. Especially when you remove the terminator at the end, and the system does not hang any longer! Start with a minimal system. So the DD11-PK (first backplane) only contains the 2 CPU boards, the M9312, the console interface board M7859, and the SLU M7856 for the console terminal. Remove the memory module, and put the terminator M9302 in the 9th slot, in positions A-B. Put in *all* other slots that have position C and D free a G7273 card. (I hope you have those, you need 5 of them). (I assume that are the cards you have in your 11/34) With the G7273's you made sure that NPR grant chain is intact. When you power up the /34, RUN should stay off, or pressing CTRL and HALT should make it go off. If you reached this condition, you can remove the G7273 from the slot where you want to install the memory board and install the memory. Test again. Then remove one by one, one G7273 and replace it with a G727A, aka knocklebuster. At a point the RUN LED will no longer go off. That slot has the NPR wire (pin CA1-CB1 connection) cut. That is a slot you can use for a "DMA" device like the RL11 interface. If that slot is not used, you must have an G7273 inserted there, or a G727A *and* re- wire pin CA1 to CB1. In the end, some slots will have G7273's and some will have G727A's. Needless to say, that for preservation of the hardware, switch off the power before swapping even a module that has no components like the G7273. And do not switch the system on within one or two seconds after switching off. A few seconds delay will not hurt! - Henk, PA8PDP. From electrowen at videotron.ca Sun Feb 8 23:30:49 2009 From: electrowen at videotron.ca (Owen) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 00:30:49 -0500 Subject: looking for some Kennedy 9100 boards Message-ID: <30CE9215A73A4CEC8490D87D7715B76E@adminPC> Hi, I was looking for people who might have a Kennedy tapedrive for sale, either working or not, and I stumbled upon your ad. I know iT's been like year, but, are you still looking for those boards for your 9100 tapedrive? Or did you find them? Owen W. (I used to own a 9100 and my friend had tow others. Gov't auction) From jimgeneva at dorisland.net Mon Feb 9 12:43:32 2009 From: jimgeneva at dorisland.net (jimgeneva at dorisland.net) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 11:43:32 -0700 Subject: HP Viper card Message-ID: <000601c98ae6$4f895040$0f00a8c0@pentium4> Would anyone have a pdf of the user manual for the hp 82321A Viper card? also does anyone know when doing an extended test at boot up is it normal to get the following errors CRT Alpha Failed Memory failed @ 00512001 Missing Keyboard I am using the 6.2 basic from the hp musuem in Australia. Jim From larico at mchsi.com Mon Feb 9 16:48:43 2009 From: larico at mchsi.com (Larry) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 16:48:43 -0600 Subject: Here is a Key Board 98155A Message-ID: <00a101c98b08$90119380$96bf11ad@larryxdzzukf6o> Here is a Key Board HP 8451A Diode Array UV-VIS Spectrophotometer 98155A From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Feb 9 17:32:08 2009 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 9 Feb 2009 18:32:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: [Spam] Source for 20Mhz. DIP Z80 In-Reply-To: <498F759D.7020504@atarimuseum.com> References: <498F759D.7020504@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 8 Feb 2009, Curt Vendel - Atarimuseum wrote: > Try netcomponents.com At $85.00/month?? I think not. Finally found them at Future Electronics. Steve > Curt > > Steven Hirsch wrote: >> They exist, and are listed by DigiKey and Mouser as the dreaded "non-stock" >> items. From past experience, this means they will not lift a finger >> without an order for 1000s in hand. >> >> Zilog has, in theory, a sample portal. But they've outsourced their web >> site to Elbonia and it does not function to the extent of being able to >> complete my registration. >> >> Anyone know a source for onsie-twosies on these? >> >> Steve >> >> > -- From bqt at softjar.se Mon Feb 9 19:25:38 2009 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 02:25:38 +0100 Subject: More PDP-11 questions In-Reply-To: <200902100028.n1A0RqFX022851@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200902100028.n1A0RqFX022851@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4990D792.9010409@softjar.se> Tobias Russell wrote: > Hi, > > Apologies for the constant stream of questions at the moment, I hope I'm > not consuming too much list bandwidth at the moment. I've brought my > whole collection out of storage and I'm bringing them all back to > working condition and going through a steep old learning curve with my > Unibus machines! Fun things to play with... :-) > So here are the latest round of questions: > > 1. I have started work on a second 11/05 I have. At the moment it has a > processor, an 8K core set, NPR cards and a pair of unibus terminators. > At present when powered up the machine has its run light constantly on, > shows what looks like a random set of lights on its address/data LEDs > and doesn't respond on its console. What do you mean by "NPR cards"? Technically there is no such thing. There is the bus grant cards, and the extended bus grant cards which also carry the NPR signal. The normal bus grant cards only carry BG signals, and thus you normally need to connect/disconnect the NPR wire on the backplane. The symptoms you describe sounds pretty much like an NPR signal problem, but of course, it could be a number of different things. > 2. I have a Plessy PM1116/B core card. This is a single slot solution > consisting of driver/sense logic on a card and a core plane on a > daughter board. Does anyone have any details/documentation on this card > or any idea of what slot would be suitable to plug it into (on a 5 1/4" > 11/05-8KW backplane). Normally I seem to remember that memory cards can go anywhere. You should of course check documentation, as the card can require specific voltages only available at certain slots. I don't have any documentation for that card. Bitsavers perhaps? > 3. I have an 11/34A (in 5 1/4" box) which is experiencing a similar > constant run light problem to the 11/05. The machine has CPU cards, > terminators, console card and a MOS memory board in it. With both > terminators in, run light stays on. If I halt it, the bus error light is > illuminated. > > If I remove the end terminator and power on, the console is responsive > and I can deposit values into memory and read them back. > > As with the 11/05 I have connected a scope and checked the power lines > are supplying the correct voltages without any oscillation. > > Any ideas? Once more: check the NPR signal. Johnny -- Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus || on a psychedelic trip email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Feb 9 20:57:42 2009 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 21:57:42 -0500 Subject: 8048 Intel programming languages Message-ID: <0KET0094YXFE5R27@vms173007.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: 8048 Intel programming languages > From: Robert Borsuk > Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 11:19:04 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >>Does anyone know of any programming languages (compilers)released for >the intel 8048 microcontroller? > Lookup SDCC, Small Device C Compiler. Theres plenty of stuff for 8048/9 family and it's cousin the 8051. Allison > >Rob > > > >Rob Borsuk >email: rborsuk at colourfull.com >Colourfull Creations >Web: http://www.colourfull.com From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Tue Feb 10 01:50:42 2009 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 23:50:42 -0800 Subject: 8048 Intel programming languages References: <002d01c98b33$6a7b0590$0201a8c0@hal9000> <314AED86-CF35-44E5-B032-C2D70BC01946@colourfull.com> Message-ID: <000501c98b54$463df8b0$0201a8c0@hal9000> Rob, I think a good place for you to start is with the Small Device C Compiler ( http://sdcc.sourceforge.net/ ) and see if that will fit your needs. It supports 8048, 8051, etc.. family. Good luck. Best regards, Steven > Steven, > Either one would be acceptable. I was looking for an alternative to > assembly. Like Dwight, I haven't found anything beyond assembler for > the 8048 but I was hoping someone on the list has bumped into something. > > Rob > > > > On Feb 9, 2009, at 10:55 PM, Scanning wrote: > > > Rob, > > > > Do you want to do a target compile to the 8048 or do you want to run > > something like Tiny BASIC or FORTH on it ?? > > > > Best regards, Steven > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Robert Borsuk" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > > Sent: Monday, February 09, 2009 8:19 AM > > Subject: 8048 Intel programming languages > > > > > >> Does anyone know of any programming languages (compilers)released for > >> the intel 8048 microcontroller? > >> > >> > >> Rob From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Tue Feb 10 03:12:14 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 01:12:14 -0800 Subject: Advice for Tek 4051 vector-drawing issue? Message-ID: <499144EE.3020002@mail.msu.edu> Inherited a Tektronix 4051 this afternoon (really, really cool old machine - 6800 CPU, vector storage-tube display) and after cleaning it out and reseating the socketed chips it appears to work almost correctly. (Even the tape drive works after cleaning the head... amazed that the pinch roller hasn't turned to goo.) The one issue is that "long" vectors do not get drawn as straight lines -- they end up curving in the direction of the destination. I've taken a photo to demonstrate: http://yahozna.dyndns.org/computers/tek4051/unvector.jpg The above is _supposed_ to be drawing a line from 0,0 to 100,100 and back, but as you can see, it's not really doing a very good job. Short vectors seem to draw OK, as do perfectly vertical and horizontal ones. Text gets drawn fine. I have the schematics but I've never dealt with a vector-based display before (only other vector display I have is in my Vectrex, and I haven't had to tweak that one yet.) Any ideas where to start? I figure the D/A converters on the CPU board are working correctly since text positioning works, and the endpoints of the vectors seem to be correct. Bitsavers has the schematics at: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/tektronix/405x/070-2286-00_4051_Service_Vol2_May77.pdf, (see page 92 for the start of the display schematics.) And a higher-level overview of the functionality at: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/tektronix/405x/070-2065-00_4051_Service_Vol1_May77.pdf (See page 147 for the start of the display overview.) Thanks! Josh From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Feb 10 04:37:06 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 10:37:06 +0000 Subject: Advice for Tek 4051 vector-drawing issue? In-Reply-To: <499144EE.3020002@mail.msu.edu> References: <499144EE.3020002@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <499158D2.2020301@philpem.me.uk> Josh Dersch wrote: > Short vectors seem to draw OK, as do perfectly vertical and horizontal > ones. Text gets drawn fine. I have the schematics but I've never dealt > with a vector-based display before (only other vector display I have is > in my Vectrex, and I haven't had to tweak that one yet.) Any ideas > where to start? I figure the D/A converters on the CPU board are > working correctly since text positioning works, and the endpoints of the > vectors seem to be correct. If the endpoints are correct, then the DACs are probably OK. That leaves the deflection system, and the two filters (one X, one Y). Take a look at 2-12 (#81 of 228) from service manual volume 2. To rule out deflection, I'd get an oscilloscope (a Tek 454 or similar should be more than enough), set it to X-Y (Lissajous) mode, and wire it up to the X and Y signal outputs from the filters -- there are two test points shown on the schematic for this (TP X and TP Y). If the display on your scope is still non-linear, go looking for faults in the display filters. If the display looks good on the scope, I'd start looking for issues in the CRT deflection circuitry. If you're going to hook it up to a scope, I'd try and get it to produce an alignment pattern that checks 45-degree lines drawn "both ways" so to speak. Either something like the Atari Asteroids self-test pattern, or even just a cross inside a square. Maybe something like this? 110 MOVE 0,0 # draw square forwds 120 DRAW 0,100 130 DRAW 100,100 140 DRAW 100,0 150 DRAW 0,0 # X forward-slash 160 DRAW 100,100 170 DRAW 0,0 # X back-slash 180 MOVE 0,100 190 DRAW 100,0 200 DRAW 0,100 # draw square backwards 210 DRAW 0,0 220 DRAW 100,0 230 DRAW 100,100 240 DRAW 0,100 # back to the start 250 GO TO 110 That's assuming the syntax of the DRAW command is "DRAW x,y", 0,0 is the bottom-left co-ordinate, and 100,100 is the top-right... The idea of this is that you can tell at-a-glance if the vectors are converging properly in both directions in all axes. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue Feb 10 05:16:01 2009 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 06:16:01 -0500 Subject: Alignment disks, and the creation thereof In-Reply-To: <639569.41129.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Mr Ian Primus wrote: > I've heard this doom and gloom talk about "when all the drives > are dead" and "when nothing is left to read $MEDIA" - and while I > admit that these things are likely to happen eventually, I also > don't believe it's a problem for any of us. Agreed. A little care in storage can go a long way as well. I have original Ohio Scientific 5 1/4" floppies that are now 30 years old (produced in 1979). They still read just fine. No indication of oxide loss, binder loss or signal loss. I've owned them since they were new and they have always been in a moderate to low humidity, 65-75 degree environment. It won't surprise me to be able to read them 30 years from now... if I last that long. From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue Feb 10 05:20:55 2009 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 06:20:55 -0500 Subject: Alignment disks, and the creation thereof In-Reply-To: <20090209183226.Q16670@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: Fred Cisin wrote: > > On Mon, 9 Feb 2009, Philip Pemberton wrote: > > Of course, I may well need a drive that's having speed > regulation issues in > > order to prove that it can track the speed correctly... > > On the Tandon TM100 series, the motor speed control is usually very > accessible on the back of the drive MPI drives have a nice little trim pot on the top that adjusts the RPMs. From toby at coreware.co.uk Tue Feb 10 06:49:53 2009 From: toby at coreware.co.uk (Tobias Russell) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 12:49:53 +0000 Subject: More PDP-11 questions In-Reply-To: References: <1234212676.12192.111.camel@spasmo> Message-ID: <1234270193.2898.565.camel@pokoyo.tan.russellsharpe.com> Arhh, I had failed to grasp the difference between the G727A and G7273 cards. I had populated with G727A's (although I had left the RL11 in place as I suspected as a DMA device it would need to be in place). As I only had a single G7273, I instead put in an extended card and used a multimeter to test the CA1->CB1 connections (I found this easier as the wirewrap side of backplane is inaccessible on a 5.25" 11/34A). Found 3 slots had had their NPR connections removed. I populated these slots with known working DMA cards (another RL11, a RUX50 and a RX211) and powered up.. Sure enough run light now goes off and I can key things into console. After various card swapping I found that the original RL11 and the M7856 SLU had failed. Luckily I have spares for both of these cards. I'll have another play later today to see if I can get the machine to boot into its serial console and run a few basic test programs. Many thanks for the help. Toby > the problem in your 11/34 sounds like a non-continuous grant chain. > > Especially when you remove the terminator at the end, and the > > system does not hang any longer! > > Start with a minimal system. So the DD11-PK (first backplane) > > only contains the 2 CPU boards, the M9312, the console interface > > board M7859, and the SLU M7856 for the console terminal. Remove > > the memory module, and put the terminator M9302 in the 9th slot, > > in positions A-B. > > Put in *all* other slots that have position C and D free a G7273 card. > > (I hope you have those, you need 5 of them). > > (I assume that are the cards you have in your 11/34) > > > > With the G7273's you made sure that NPR grant chain is intact. > > When you power up the /34, RUN should stay off, or pressing CTRL > > and HALT should make it go off. > > > > If you reached this condition, you can remove the G7273 from the slot > > where you want to install the memory board and install the memory. > > Test again. > > > > Then remove one by one, one G7273 and replace it with a G727A, aka > > knocklebuster. At a point the RUN LED will no longer go off. That slot > > has the NPR wire (pin CA1-CB1 connection) cut. That is a slot you > > can use for a "DMA" device like the RL11 interface. If that slot is not > > used, you must have an G7273 inserted there, or a G727A *and* re- > > wire pin CA1 to CB1. > > In the end, some slots will have G7273's and some will have G727A's. > > > > Needless to say, that for preservation of the hardware, switch off the > > power before swapping even a module that has no components like the > > G7273. And do not switch the system on within one or two seconds > > after switching off. A few seconds delay will not hurt! > > > > - Henk, PA8PDP. > > > -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From laptoplarry at gmail.com Tue Feb 10 10:32:42 2009 From: laptoplarry at gmail.com (Larry Yates) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 11:32:42 -0500 Subject: Boot Disk Needed for Kaypro 2X Message-ID: <555487b0902100832j7c00362ap7cd462fcea29db04@mail.gmail.com> The boot disk I have is looking for Turbo ROM. I guess I need one for the 2X (without Trubo ROM). Please help or point me in the right direction. Thanks! -Larry -- This is not an automated signature. I type this in to the bottom of every message. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 10 14:15:59 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 15:15:59 -0500 Subject: Need Fuji M2312 info Message-ID: Hi folks. Does anyone have an electronic copy of the manual for the Fujitsu M2312 SMD drive? I need to configure two of them for use on an Emulex SC72 controller and I need to know how to set the DIP switches. Lacking an electronic copy, does anyone have a paper copy, and if so, would you be willing to scan or type in the relevant pages? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 10 13:54:04 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 19:54:04 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Alignment disks, and the creation thereof In-Reply-To: <4990A8EC.4070307@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Feb 9, 9 04:06:36 pm Message-ID: > The time might be better spent producing drop-in replacements for entire > floppy disk units. It'll be sad when big ol' 8" and 5.25" drives truly are > obsolete, but I suppose that day will come sooner or later. I suspect that day will come (if ever) when the last floppy disk of that size is no longer useable, and there is no way to make a replacement. The drives themselves will be repairable (as I've said before, apart from the heads, just about any other part can be made or repaired in a good home workshop). Aren't there strictly 2 prolems, though. The first is keeping machines with flopyp drives running, assuming you have the software on something that's still readable. And for that a solid-state replacement is one possible answer. I seem to remember reading about some open-source floppy emulator on the web, the prolem being it only had enough memory for a single-sided (5.25" or 3.5") disk image. Which somewhat limits the usefulness. The second iproblem is that you find a floppy disk in good condition (not shedding oxide, etc) and you need to read it. To do that you could use an accurately aligned floppy drive, which means you need the alignment disk. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 10 13:34:02 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 19:34:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: HP Viper card In-Reply-To: <000601c98ae6$4f895040$0f00a8c0@pentium4> from "jimgeneva@dorisland.net" at Feb 9, 9 11:43:32 am Message-ID: > > Would anyone have a pdf of the user manual for the hp 82321A Viper card? > also does anyone know when doing an extended test at boot up is it = > normal > to get the following errors CRT Alpha Failed Memory failed @ 00512001 > Missing Keyboard I am using the 6.2 basic from the hp musuem in = > Australia. I don't know this board (and I don't have any manuals), but IIRC, this is basically and HP9000/200 on an ISA card to run HP Technical BASIC, etc, on a PC. In general if an HP product gives an error, then there's something wrong. On a real 9000/200, the first message means the read/write test on the text video mmeory failed (these machines have spearate memory for the text display (ascii code + attributes, with a hardware ROM to turn that into character patterns) and grpahics (bitmapped on mono machines, one pixel per yte on the 9836C colour machine). The second error means that tests on the keyboard controller (in the real 9000 an 8041 or 8042) failed. I assuem that with the Viper card, the keyboard and screen accesses are somehow translated to accesses to the PC equivalent devices. My first question is : what PC are you using and what graphics board. It's possible this thing assumes the use of a particular graphics display, and/or a real HP PC., and that 'compatible' machines don't work. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 10 14:04:14 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 20:04:14 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Alignment disks, and the creation thereof In-Reply-To: <20090209135255.K3398@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Feb 9, 9 02:20:25 pm Message-ID: > Yes, the specs are readily available. > It would not be a major feat of prototyping to build a drive that MAKES > alignment diskettes. I've though of doing it. Maybe taking a 'spare' 8" drive and replacing the postiioner with a manually-operated micrometer hrad (it doesn't matter if I have to position the head by hand for each track, I don;t need to prodcue alignment disks quickly!). I am curious as to what the 'real' alignment signals look like. One reference seemed to impley they were circular tracks not concentric with the spidnle. Making those would be 'fun'... > You can make a stand-alone controller for the task - called a "drive > exercisor" or "exOrcisor" I was given a drive exerciser (darn useful it is too...). It's a simple microcontrtoller application and a bit of TTL to generate f and 2f write waveforms (there's no read electornics in the excerciser, you use a 'scope for that). Alternitvely, some floppy drive service manuals include the schematics for the manufactuer's exerciser and a suprising number of those are just TTL chips (nothing programmable/programmed), so something similar could easily be made. > Or, use a PC. Trivial software to convert a PC into a drive exercisor. Sure, ut a lot more bulky (which is an issue when I've got most of a classic ocmputer all over my workbench!). > > > It's possible. It's beyond the equipment and tools at my disposal, but > > it's definitely doable for a hobbyist who has access to a machine shop > > and good tools. > > It actually wouldn't take much (see above). > > > Anyone out there a machinist? :) > Although he won't admit to it, Tony is a better machinist than some Well, I won;t admit to being a good machinist becuase I am not. I need a lot more practice. Like many things, you can read all the books there are, bnt you still need to put the time in having a go. > professionals that I have dealt with (I ended up doing my own valve seat That alas, does not suprise me. I really do wish we could get away from this idea that 'professional' is necessarily better than 'amateur'. 'Professional' means you're paid fro it , 'Amateur' means you do it because you love it. And the second may well involve more care, more attention to detail, and a better understanding of the subject than the former. (Hint : How many computer 'professionals' these days would even know what an alignment disk was, let alone be considering how to make one)? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 10 13:41:34 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 19:41:34 +0000 (GMT) Subject: More PDP-11 questions In-Reply-To: <1234212676.12192.111.camel@spasmo> from "Tobias Russell" at Feb 9, 9 08:51:16 pm Message-ID: > > Hi, > > Apologies for the constant stream of questions at the moment, I hope I'm > not consuming too much list bandwidth at the moment. I've brought my > whole collection out of storage and I'm bringing them all back to > working condition and going through a steep old learning curve with my > Unibus machines! > > So here are the latest round of questions: > > 1. I have started work on a second 11/05 I have. At the moment it has a > processor, an 8K core set, NPR cards and a pair of unibus terminators. > At present when powered up the machine has its run light constantly on, > shows what looks like a random set of lights on its address/data LEDs > and doesn't respond on its console. > > I have tried swapping the CPU boards and core cards for known working > cards with no success. I have also hooked up a scope and confirmed the > power supply is supplying correct voltages. PLEASE stop board-swapping and actually try to trace the fault logically. It's not hard, it's generally a lot quicker in the end, and you learn something about how these fine machines work. An 11/05 CPU board set is under 200 ICs, and that can be easily understood. > 3. I have an 11/34A (in 5 1/4" box) which is experiencing a similar > constant run light problem to the 11/05. The machine has CPU cards, > terminators, console card and a MOS memory board in it. With both > terminators in, run light stays on. If I halt it, the bus error light is > illuminated. > > If I remove the end terminator and power on, the console is responsive > and I can deposit values into memory and read them back. What terminators are you using n the 2 cases? The little M930 ones (just resistors or resistor packs) or the larger M9302 one with some ICs on it? I would guess the latter, at least in the 11/34 machine. This terminator has a feauture that if a grant gets all the way to the temrinator (that is, if no device on the bus intercepts the grant and doesn't pass it on), then the terminator will assert SACK. At this point he processor (or more precisely the arbitor part of the processor) should deassert the grant lines, and the Unibus carries on working as normal. The problem comes if one of the grapts is 'open' either due to a missing continuity card, a defective device, a defective backplane, whatever. The grants are aobut the only Unibus signals that are active-high. So an open one appears to be asseted, the terminator asserts SACK, the processor can't do anything (it was never really asserting that grant line in the first place) and you get a bus error. I would guess you hav an open grant somewhere. Maybe a missing NPG jumper (between pins CA1 and CB1 of each SPC slot. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 10 13:43:09 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 19:43:09 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Alignment disks, and the creation thereof In-Reply-To: from "Dan Gahlinger" at Feb 9, 9 04:28:23 pm Message-ID: > that's one reason I'm digitizing all the software I have=2C I have rare stu= > ff that will cease to exist if I don't. I find that a very curious statement. Surely software is digital to begin with, so how do you 'digitise' it? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 10 13:45:55 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 19:45:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Anyone have a line on batteries for the NLS In-Reply-To: <4990A6EE.5000600@gifford.co.uk> from "John Honniball" at Feb 9, 9 09:58:06 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > Worse than that, as you mention in passing, in some designs the battery > > acts as a shunt regulator and stabilises the votlage on one of the main > > supply lines. > > The Microwriter does this, with four NiCad cells acting as a > "5V regulator". Naturally, my Microwriter came with four dud cells, > but I only paid a pound for it at a Bristol car boot sale! I am pretty sure my Microwriter, an MW4 model, has a zener diode across the battery pack to protect the machine if the battery goes open. Incidnetally, one thing to watch for on this machine is that the power 'swtich (actually a pair of VMOS FETs in parallel) is in the -ve rail. There's a common positive to all the ICs and seaprate awitched and unswitched grounds. Alas my MW4 seems to have a ROM problem (in that some chords are misrecognised, it is not a switch/wirign/diode fault). If anyone has a klnown-good dump of the 2564 in an MW4, I'd be interested... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 10 14:41:10 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 20:41:10 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Alignment disks, and the creation thereof In-Reply-To: <4990B7AB.1060301@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Feb 9, 9 11:09:31 pm Message-ID: > Of course, I may well need a drive that's having speed regulation issues in > order to prove that it can track the speed correctly... That shoukld be easy enough.. Many of the full-height 5.25" drives used a combined motor and tachogenerator with a belt drive to the spindle. Teh control circuit was often based round an LM2917 chip with a twiddlepot to set the speed. Eitehr turn the pot by hand to get the thing off-speed., or find some way to inject a very slow analogue signal into the circuit to cause the speed to vary a bit over time. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Feb 10 15:02:21 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 21:02:21 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Need Fuji M2312 info In-Reply-To: from "Dave McGuire" at Feb 10, 9 03:15:59 pm Message-ID: > > > Hi folks. Does anyone have an electronic copy of the manual for > the Fujitsu M2312 SMD drive? I need to configure two of them for use > on an Emulex SC72 controller and I need to know how to set the DIP > switches. > > Lacking an electronic copy, does anyone have a paper copy, and if > so, would you be willing to scan or type in the relevant pages? If you get no other help, I am pretty sure I have this manual on paper. I can find out what the DIP swithces do (IIRC some of them determine things like secotrs/track), but obvious it'll not tell you how to set them for any particular controller. I will have to type in the info (as ever, I don't have a scanner...) -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Feb 10 15:18:25 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 16:18:25 -0500 Subject: Need Fuji M2312 info In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Feb 10, 2009, at 4:02 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Hi folks. Does anyone have an electronic copy of the manual for >> the Fujitsu M2312 SMD drive? I need to configure two of them for use >> on an Emulex SC72 controller and I need to know how to set the DIP >> switches. >> >> Lacking an electronic copy, does anyone have a paper copy, and if >> so, would you be willing to scan or type in the relevant pages? > > If you get no other help, I am pretty sure I have this manual on > paper. I > can find out what the DIP swithces do (IIRC some of them determine > things > like secotrs/track), but obvious it'll not tell you how to set them > for > any particular controller. > > I will have to type in the info (as ever, I don't have a scanner...) Thanks! Actually, it's the sectors per track setup that I need. :-) I'll check the SC72 documentation tonight to see if I need any other info. (oh, I'm sure I'll need device select configuration info too..) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Feb 10 16:03:02 2009 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 16:03:02 -0600 Subject: Alignment disks, and the creation thereof In-Reply-To: <20090209142127.T3398@shell.lmi.net> References: <493760.75650.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4990A8EC.4070307@gmail.com> <20090209142127.T3398@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4991F996.2090105@oldskool.org> Fred Cisin wrote: >> I think I'll miss the death-rattle of encountering a bad disk block, or even >> the grinding/squealing noise as the surface of a disk falls off and demolishes >> the drive head. Any magical "solid state" replacement should really include >> audio output and the ability to randomly lose bits of your data... :-) > > Ah HA! > THAT is what is missing from simulation! Actually, WinUAE has a very convincing simulation of what Amiga floppy drives sound like if you turn it on. It's really cool to hear the drive noises as you run a game from a floppy disk file... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Feb 10 16:09:39 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 14:09:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Alignment disks, and the creation thereof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090210140920.X63237@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 10 Feb 2009, Tony Duell wrote: > > that's one reason I'm digitizing all the software I have=2C I have rare stu= > > ff that will cease to exist if I don't. > > I find that a very curious statement. Surely software is digital to begin > with, so how do you 'digitise' it? print it out, and then OCR it? From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Feb 10 16:44:40 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon J. C. Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 22:44:40 +0000 Subject: Alignment disks, and the creation thereof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1234305880.8266.5.camel@kusanagi> On Tue, 2009-02-10 at 20:41 +0000, Tony Duell wrote: > > Of course, I may well need a drive that's having speed regulation issues in > > order to prove that it can track the speed correctly... > > That shoukld be easy enough.. Many of the full-height 5.25" drives used a > combined motor and tachogenerator with a belt drive to the spindle. Teh > control circuit was often based round an LM2917 chip with a twiddlepot to > set the speed. > > Eitehr turn the pot by hand to get the thing off-speed., or find some way > to inject a very slow analogue signal into the circuit to cause the speed > to vary a bit over time. If you were being excessively clever, you'd measure the speed of the disc with the tachogenerator and apply some modulation to the twiddlepot to let you choose any speed, right or wrong, and stick to it! If you used a little microcontroller you could program in various test patterns of wobbly speed, too. Gordon From coredump at gifford.co.uk Tue Feb 10 16:51:34 2009 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 22:51:34 +0000 Subject: Alignment disks, and the creation thereof In-Reply-To: <4990B7AB.1060301@philpem.me.uk> References: <493760.75650.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4990B7AB.1060301@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <499204F6.1000005@gifford.co.uk> Philip Pemberton wrote: > A voice-coil actuator /might/ be more accurate than a stepper, but you > still need a servo system to align it. Ladies and gentlemen, meet > catch-22: you want to write the servo tracks, but you need the servo > tracks to write the servo tracks... I've seen photos of a gadget that was built to re-write servo tracks on hard drives. It was set up in a clean room (of course) in the early 1990s, with interchangeable modules for different makes/models of drive. They were real, non-digital photos on 10x8 glossy paper! Will ask about them again, and see if they can be scanned. The guy who built it was an ex-UK101 user who I met at the local Linux User Group. -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Feb 10 17:10:10 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 15:10:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Alignment disks, and the creation thereof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20090210150505.J70427@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 10 Feb 2009, Tony Duell wrote: > I am curious as to what the 'real' alignment signals look like. One > reference seemed to impley they were circular tracks not concentric with > the spidnle. Making those would be 'fun'... The radial alignment tracks on the Dysan digital (according to what Dysan said when they released it) ARE concentric, but with individual sectors being out of spec on radius. For non-concentric circular, couldn't you modify the disk clamping mechanism to be slightly off of the spindle axis? > > Or, use a PC. Trivial software to convert a PC into a drive exercisor. > Sure, ut a lot more bulky (which is an issue when I've got most of a > classic ocmputer all over my workbench!). You don't also have a few PC's on your bench already? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From FJGJR1 at aol.com Tue Feb 10 19:44:45 2009 From: FJGJR1 at aol.com (FJGJR1 at aol.com) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 20:44:45 EST Subject: Reply - Re: Boot Disk Needed for Kaypro 2X Message-ID: Larry, Go to _www.vintage-computer.com_ (http://www.vintage-computer.com) and do a search on that topic. Also, contact "Sharkonwheels" there - again do a search - he posts a lot. He is into the Kaypros "after" 1983 versions - i.e. the "2X's", I am into the 1983 versions. Looks like it may have been upgraded with the Turbo. I believe such upgrades are still available for the post 1983 versions - Advent might be a search word to use. Shark will know. He even sells modified Kaypros of that era. Getting the right boot disk for the specific Kaypro you have is critical - many do not understand this - today you need Windows - there are not very many main options. Kaypro had about 15 - 20 different versions before they went bankrupt. Also, in those hectic times, many "unofficial' modifications were made that may not have been documented, by Kaypro and previous owners of such computers. Modifications and upgrades were very common in order to try to keep them running efficiently, until the inevitable change to windows, after we all invested so much in those systems, especially our time! Sometimes you just have to take the top off and look around, especially at chips at U43 and U47. Please post your results on that site so others can benefit. You can check my site out - _www.kayprosts.org_ (http://www.kayprosts.org) - under the folder "special" for a draft of my book on computers of that era and a 2008 Kaypro calendar I did - lots of pictures of my 6 1983 Kaypros modified to Kaypro " 8 ' 's. All the best. Frank In a message dated 2/10/2009 11:34:45 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, laptoplarry at gmail.com writes: The boot disk I have is looking for Turbo ROM. I guess I need one for the 2X (without Trubo ROM). Please help or point me in the right direction. Thanks! -Larry -- This is not an automated signature. I type this in to the bottom of every message. **************The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy Awards. AOL Music takes you there. (http://music.aol.com/grammys?ncid=emlcntusmusi00000002) From rborsuk at colourfull.com Tue Feb 10 20:51:42 2009 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 21:51:42 -0500 Subject: 8048 Intel programming languages In-Reply-To: <000501c98b54$463df8b0$0201a8c0@hal9000> References: <002d01c98b33$6a7b0590$0201a8c0@hal9000> <314AED86-CF35-44E5-B032-C2D70BC01946@colourfull.com> <000501c98b54$463df8b0$0201a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <2AB8BA9D-4880-466D-B1C7-3F03888B955A@colourfull.com> Steven and Allison, I've spent some time today with SDCC and I'm sorry to say I couldn't find any reference to 8048 in it. The 8051 yes. Unfortunately the memory structure (specifically the banking and jumping) is different between the 8048 and the 8051. How about this: Did they ever release any sort of languages for the IMSAI 8048 board? Rob On Feb 10, 2009, at 2:50 AM, Scanning wrote: > Rob, > > I think a good place for you to start is with the Small Device C > Compiler > ( http://sdcc.sourceforge.net/ ) and see if that will fit your > needs. It > supports 8048, 8051, etc.. family. Good luck. > > Best regards, Steven >> Subject: 8048 Intel programming languages >> From: Robert Borsuk >> Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 11:19:04 -0500 >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > >>> Does anyone know of any programming languages (compilers)released >>> for >> the intel 8048 microcontroller? >> > > Lookup SDCC, Small Device C Compiler. Theres plenty of stuff for > 8048/9 family > and it's cousin the 8051. > > Allison > From rborsuk at colourfull.com Tue Feb 10 21:25:53 2009 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 22:25:53 -0500 Subject: Decmate III Message-ID: Hi all, Just put my Decmate III on ebay if anyones interested. #300293036980 Rob Rob Borsuk email: rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations Web: http://www.colourfull.com From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Tue Feb 10 21:38:48 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 19:38:48 -0800 Subject: Advice for Tek 4051 vector-drawing issue? In-Reply-To: <499158D2.2020301@philpem.me.uk> References: <499144EE.3020002@mail.msu.edu> <499158D2.2020301@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <49924848.1080601@mail.msu.edu> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Josh Dersch wrote: >> Short vectors seem to draw OK, as do perfectly vertical and >> horizontal ones. Text gets drawn fine. I have the schematics but >> I've never dealt with a vector-based display before (only other >> vector display I have is in my Vectrex, and I haven't had to tweak >> that one yet.) Any ideas where to start? I figure the D/A >> converters on the CPU board are working correctly since text >> positioning works, and the endpoints of the vectors seem to be correct. > > If the endpoints are correct, then the DACs are probably OK. That > leaves the deflection system, and the two filters (one X, one Y). > > Take a look at 2-12 (#81 of 228) from service manual volume 2. > > To rule out deflection, I'd get an oscilloscope (a Tek 454 or similar > should be more than enough), set it to X-Y (Lissajous) mode, and wire > it up to the X and Y signal outputs from the filters -- there are two > test points shown on the schematic for this (TP X and TP Y). > > If the display on your scope is still non-linear, go looking for > faults in the display filters. > If the display looks good on the scope, I'd start looking for issues > in the CRT deflection circuitry. Thanks for the suggestion! Made two discoveries: 1) The schematics on Bitsavers do not correspond to the revision of the machine I have (mine appears to be earlier). I have a printed set of them, so I'm OK (I mistakenly assumed both were the same). There are no X/Y test points on my Tek's display board, but it was easy enough to hook up to the X/Y connector (J55, for those playing along at home). 2) Having done so, it looks like the display filters are at fault. The oscilloscope display is distorted in exactly the same way as it is on the Tek's display. Now to start debugging from here... (and maybe I should get these schematics to Al for archiving...) would dried up capacitors be a likely culprit? Thanks, Josh From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Tue Feb 10 22:36:57 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 20:36:57 -0800 Subject: Advice for Tek 4051 vector-drawing issue? In-Reply-To: <49924848.1080601@mail.msu.edu> References: <499144EE.3020002@mail.msu.edu> <499158D2.2020301@philpem.me.uk> <49924848.1080601@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <499255E9.6040709@mail.msu.edu> Ha, whoops -- disregard #1 below... I was looking at the wrong section :). Some days... Josh Josh Dersch wrote: > > > Philip Pemberton wrote: >> Josh Dersch wrote: >>> Short vectors seem to draw OK, as do perfectly vertical and >>> horizontal ones. Text gets drawn fine. I have the schematics but >>> I've never dealt with a vector-based display before (only other >>> vector display I have is in my Vectrex, and I haven't had to tweak >>> that one yet.) Any ideas where to start? I figure the D/A >>> converters on the CPU board are working correctly since text >>> positioning works, and the endpoints of the vectors seem to be correct. >> >> If the endpoints are correct, then the DACs are probably OK. That >> leaves the deflection system, and the two filters (one X, one Y). >> >> Take a look at 2-12 (#81 of 228) from service manual volume 2. >> >> To rule out deflection, I'd get an oscilloscope (a Tek 454 or similar >> should be more than enough), set it to X-Y (Lissajous) mode, and wire >> it up to the X and Y signal outputs from the filters -- there are two >> test points shown on the schematic for this (TP X and TP Y). >> >> If the display on your scope is still non-linear, go looking for >> faults in the display filters. >> If the display looks good on the scope, I'd start looking for issues >> in the CRT deflection circuitry. > Thanks for the suggestion! Made two discoveries: > > 1) The schematics on Bitsavers do not correspond to the revision of > the machine I have (mine appears to be earlier). I have a printed set > of them, so I'm OK (I mistakenly assumed both were the same). There > are no X/Y test points on my Tek's display board, but it was easy > enough to hook up to the X/Y connector (J55, for those playing along > at home). > > 2) Having done so, it looks like the display filters are at fault. > The oscilloscope display is distorted in exactly the same way as it is > on the Tek's display. > > Now to start debugging from here... (and maybe I should get these > schematics to Al for archiving...) would dried up capacitors be a > likely culprit? > > Thanks, > Josh > > > From legalize at xmission.com Tue Feb 10 22:49:26 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 21:49:26 -0700 Subject: Advice for Tek 4051 vector-drawing issue? In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 10 Feb 2009 19:38:48 -0800. <49924848.1080601@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: In article <49924848.1080601 at mail.msu.edu>, Josh Dersch writes: > Now to start debugging from here... (and maybe I should get these > schematics to Al for archiving...) would dried up capacitors be a likely > culprit? That's what I immediately expected as soon as you described the problem. They seem to be the "usual suspect" for flakey vintage electronics. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Feb 11 00:13:01 2009 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 00:13:01 -0600 Subject: 8088 vs. 80c88 Message-ID: <49926C6D.6090602@oldskool.org> I was always under the impression that when Intel moved to a CMOS manufacturing process for the 8088/8086, they fixed a bug regarding a repeated LODSB with a segment override -- that the REP prefix was ignored (bug) in the old 8088s, and was honored (correctly) in the newer chips. So a simple routine to try to identify the 8088 vs. the 80c88 would look something like: mov cx,2 ; test if following instruction will be ; repeated twice. db 0F3h,26h,0ACh ; rep es: lodsb jcxz Yes ; intel non-CMOS chips do not care of rep jmp Nope ; before segment prefix override, NEC and ; CMOS-tech ones does. If I run this on my 5150 with (C)1978 8088, I see the bug (cx does not update). If I run this on my 5160 with "80c88" printed on the chip, I do not see the bug (cx goes to 0). So all is well, right? Well, I use this routine in a detection library for a project I recently completed(*) and someone is claiming that the code is broken. It reports an 80c88 when the chip is *not* marked 80c88, but rather "8088 (C) 1983 Intel". So what's going on? Is the chip from 1983 actually an 80c88, since it doesn't have the bug? Or did Intel fix the bug before moving to a CMOS manufacturing process? (*) project is a CGA compatibility testing program; you can grab it from www.oldskool.org/pc/cgacomp -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Wed Feb 11 00:28:04 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 22:28:04 -0800 Subject: House cleaning! Message-ID: <49926FF4.7060303@mail.msu.edu> So I've amassed way too much stuff lately and I have a lot of cool stuff that I never touch anymore, so I'm thinning out my collection a bit to free up some space. Smallish stuff I'll ship, but the large stuff is local pick-up only. (Seattle, WA area). Happy to drive out a ways to meet you if it helps. Make an offer -- no reasonable offer refused. Stuff that doesn't get claimed 'll probably end up on eBay eventually. Thanks! Josh Monitors: --------- - Amdek Color II - Works. - Gateway 2000, 15" Vivitron (does 1280x1024, actually a nice SVGA...) - Ball 9" CRT Terminals: ---------- - Intertec InterTube II - Does not work. Makes horrible hissing/screeching on power-up. Dirty, but will clean up. - Beehive SuperBee - No keyboard. Needs work. Ugly looking on the outside, but very clean inside, given how old it is. - Wang terminal - Cannot find model on case, believe it to be part of an old Wang word-processing system. Built like a tank. Computers: ---------- - Compaq Portable III - Worked the last time I powered it up. Hard drive, 5.25" floppy drive. - Compaq Portable 386 - Also works. 2MB ram, hard drive. Carrying case (travel in style!) - Dell Optiplex, Dual PPro/w P2-Overdrive. No HD, I have RAM somewhere. - HP 9000/236 - W/Monitor. Works, but floppy controller reports errors on startup. - HP 9826 - Was working, but monitor no longer powers up. - Mac Plus - Not working. - Pet 2001 (32k) - Works - CBM 8032 - Works, PCB is a bit hacked up, but works. - ComputerVision CADDStation 32 - Neat old Sun3-based machine I inherited awhile back. Really heavy, no I will not ship. Just the machine, none of the various CAD-related input devices. Mostly working -- CPU board needs repair (but it's just a rebadged Sun3 VME processor board so it's not impossible to find parts...) SGI Personal Iris 4D/35 + Iris File. No RAM, alas. Chassis has a bit of rust, but is otherwise solid. TRS-80 Model II + external 8" drive box (w/2 drives installed). Works, a bit worn. (Have not tested all the drives.) Laptops: -------- A goodish stack of older laptops. 386, 486, and Pentium. Ask for details. Take one, take all... take as many as you want! Misc: ----- CBM 2031 5.25" floppy drive - works CBM 4040 dual 5.25" drive - does not work. DECServer 200/MC. Appears to work. Never took the time to set up a machine with LAT, etc... to try it out. HP 1200B Oscilloscope. Rack mountable, Dual trace. Needs some repair (trace does not scan across the screen correctly.) From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Feb 11 00:43:15 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 01:43:15 -0500 Subject: Alignment disks, and the creation thereof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200902110143.15434.rtellason@verizon.net> > > You can make a stand-alone controller for the task - called a "drive > > exercisor" or "exOrcisor" > > I was given a drive exerciser (darn useful it is too...). It's a simple > microcontrtoller application and a bit of TTL to generate f and 2f write > waveforms (there's no read electornics in the excerciser, you use a > 'scope for that). > > Alternitvely, some floppy drive service manuals include the schematics > for the manufactuer's exerciser and a suprising number of those are just > TTL chips (nothing programmable/programmed), so something similar could > easily be made. I had one drive exerciser that unfortunately ran on a machine that didn't work when I last tried it (a Yamaha CX5 for those who are curious). That box also has an external drive, 720K, that I used very little. Standard 34-wire interface. I wouldn't mind putting something together if anybody has some of that documentation to pass along, or pointers as to where it might be found. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From tsw-cc at johana.com Wed Feb 11 01:09:39 2009 From: tsw-cc at johana.com (Tom Watson) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 23:09:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Alignment disks, and the creation thereof References: <200902101801.n1AI1Eta035285@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <13549.19812.qm@web90404.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message: 17 Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 07:08:20 +0100 Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel Wrote: > Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > I've heard this doom and gloom talk about "when all the drives are dead" and "when nothing is left to read $MEDIA" - and while I admit that these things are likely to happen eventually, I also don't believe it's a problem for any of us. > > > Your are wrong. It might be true for the common formats, but there are drives out there were the number of functioning units is approaching zero. > > Try finding an Honeywell-Bull D100 "Cynthia" series cartridge drive or media for instance... > > > Jos Arrg... Yes, I know all about those drives, and I have one that it is "semi-operational". I worked on these in 1979 and had them connected to a 6800 system. While they worked most of the time, they were a bit picky. They needed 36 volt power supplies as well as others. The controller provided actually did work. The early drives had a secondary board that eventually was replaced with an LSI chip. Their main problem was that they were a bit (well actually more than that) temperamental. The drives themselves were only 10Mbyte goodies, and used embedded servos with on-track sparing. The disks themselves were "cut-down" from 14 inch media (like 2315's). Thankfully I eventually replaced these with SMD drives, then 5 1/4 drives with the Xebec 1410 controller (SASI). All on a 6800! Fun in the early 80's From tiggerlasv at aim.com Wed Feb 11 01:24:14 2009 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 02:24:14 -0500 Subject: Need Fuji M2312 info Message-ID: <8CB5A30E06F6A76-1360-1E07@WEBMAIL-DB01.sysops.aol.com> Howdy ! I believe the details you are looking for can be found here: http://stason.org/TULARC/pc/hard-drives-hdd/fujitsu/M2321K-MB-8-0-FH-SMD.html Scroll down; everything is there. That site has many different models. . . Would be nice if that were posted on bitsavers or manx. . . From tiggerlasv at aim.com Wed Feb 11 01:30:47 2009 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 02:30:47 -0500 Subject: Need Fuji M2312 info (retraction) Message-ID: <8CB5A31CAE6B328-21C-3AE6@webmail-mf21.sysops.aol.com> Sorry about that -- I no sooner hit "send", when I realized that I transposed numbers on the Fujitsu model number. I don't know how close the model numbers are; perhaps you can extrapolate the sector settings based on the 2321 info. . . From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 11 01:42:52 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 02:42:52 -0500 Subject: Need Fuji M2312 info (retraction) In-Reply-To: <8CB5A31CAE6B328-21C-3AE6@webmail-mf21.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CB5A31CAE6B328-21C-3AE6@webmail-mf21.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <326FED52-E7AD-4D17-9046-4E317D3F0B76@neurotica.com> On Feb 11, 2009, at 2:30 AM, tiggerlasv at aim.com wrote: > Sorry about that -- I no sooner hit "send", when I realized that I > transposed > numbers on the Fujitsu model number. > > I don't know how close the model numbers are; > perhaps you can extrapolate the sector settings > based on the 2321 info. . . I kinda doubt it. Thanks anyway though. I spent most of the night digging through boxes to find a set of SMD cables, which I did finally find. (only one set though) Next I'll see if I can determine the specific parameters that I require, and then perhaps Tony can get me the matching switch settings from his paper copy of the manual. I'm going to try exercising and formatting the drives on an Emulex QD33 in a small Qbus machine, as I know I have working hardware and configuring a QD33 is a lot easier than an SC72. Then, when I'm confident that the drives are ok, I'll move them to the 11/70 and connect them to the SC72. I was sure that I had an M2312 manual here somewhere, but an hour of looking through boxes for that instead turned up a manual for an M2284. Sigh. If only I had an M2284 drive. I really like that model. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From chrise at pobox.com Tue Feb 10 10:34:33 2009 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 10:34:33 -0600 Subject: GNT 3601 tape punch docs? In-Reply-To: <20090208231032.GN3515@n0jcf.net> References: <20090128162805.GG20244@n0jcf.net> <20090208231032.GN3515@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20090210163432.GB1858@n0jcf.net> On Sunday (02/08/2009 at 05:10PM -0600), Chris Elmquist wrote: > > Now I'm working on figuring out the serial and parallel interfaces. > The brains are an 8048 microcontroller and then it looks like the serial > interface is handled by a classic old AY-3-1015 UART, which I'm assuming > front-ends the parallel interface. Lots more discovery there... Just to close out this saga, I got lucky and after only a few trial and errors, discovered that the unit accepts 300 baud, 8 bit, no parity, 1 stop on a female DB25 DTE connection. It needs DSR on pin 6 asserted before it will respond. But then whatever I send down the wire with those parameters, gets punched on the tape. It works! It's very fast and very quiet compared to an ASR-33 :-) This was a nice save. Still searching for a manual though, because there are switches in there that I don't know what they do... and you know, a guy could loose sleep over that. Chris From charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com Tue Feb 10 11:04:56 2009 From: charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 09:04:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: KEEP annoucement In-Reply-To: <4990E7A7.30109@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <163955.65278.qm@web35302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> > From another mailing list: What list? Lee Courtney --- On Mon, 2/9/09, Al Kossow wrote: > From: Al Kossow > Subject: KEEP annoucement > To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org > Date: Monday, February 9, 2009, 6:34 PM > From another mailing list: > > > I am glad to announce, that a major European research > project, which is related to the preservation of complex > digital artefacts, has just started. KEEP (Keeping Emulation > Environments Portable) is funded by the European Community > with 3,15 Mio. Euro will go on from now for three years. > Aim of the project is to utilize the preservation tools, > which are mainly created in the gamer community, for a > broader range of users and purposes. The impact of the > project lies also in the structure of the consortium itself: > for the first time traditional memory institutions like the > national libraries of France, Germany and Netherlands and > researchers with a background in humanitities (University of > Portsmouth) come together with organisations specialized in > games resp. their preservation (Computer Game Museum, > European Games Developer Federation ) within a common > research effort in such a scale. I am pretty sure, that we > will be able to boost the awareness of the need to preserve > the gaming culture on that basis and of course provide > concrete preservation tools and interfaces to do the job. > > > > More details about the project can be found here: > > > http://www.computerspielemuseum.de/index.php?lg=en&main=News&site=02:00:00&id=186 From julianskidmore at yahoo.com Tue Feb 10 14:30:00 2009 From: julianskidmore at yahoo.com (Julian Skidmore) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 12:30:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Alignment disks, and the creation thereof Message-ID: <89899.98160.qm@web37103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi folks, > I suppose someone might magic up a way of creating DIY floppies from > scratch in a home lab, but I'm not holding my breath. http://www.madehow.com/Volume-1/Floppy-Disk.html http://www.mylarstoreonline.com/25ft.html I think you want the 3mil type (assuming 3mil means 0.003", my knowledge of non-metric units is getting rusty ;-) ) With this and some iron oxide (from China?) you have the makings of a floppy disk - you just need a jacket and liner; something to polish it all with and a pair of scissors (kidding). -cheers from Julz @p From stuart at retrocomputing.tv Tue Feb 10 17:02:45 2009 From: stuart at retrocomputing.tv (stuart birchall) Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 23:02:45 +0000 Subject: Ping: Witchy (binary dinosaurs) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, If you're about, please drop me a line about an interesting trade. thanks stu From tiggerlasv at aim.com Wed Feb 11 02:41:37 2009 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 03:41:37 -0500 Subject: Need Fuji M2312 info (updated) Message-ID: <8CB5A3BAF87CCB6-21C-3BBF@webmail-mf21.sysops.aol.com> Alrighty -- This info, gleaned from the Emulex SC02 manual: Fujitsu 2311 and 2312 - Switch settings for * 35 SECTORS * SW2-1 ON SW2-2 ON SW2-3 ON SW2-4 OFF SW2-5 OFF SW2-6 OFF SW2-7 ON SW3-1 OFF SW3-2 OFF SW3-3 ON SW3-4 OFF SW3-5 OFF SW3-6 OFF SW3-7 OFF At least this will be something to go on, if you can't locate a manual. .. . From laptoplarry at gmail.com Wed Feb 11 08:39:25 2009 From: laptoplarry at gmail.com (Larry Yates) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 09:39:25 -0500 Subject: Reply - Re: Boot Disk Needed for Kaypro 2X Message-ID: <555487b0902110639l122c9005sd08d5bf1267bc06e@mail.gmail.com> Frank, Thank you for the information! My original plan is/was to retrieve my Compaq Portable (my wife buried it in a closet) to create a boot disk...only to find that I could not locate the MS-DOS boot disk for the Compaq?!?! While in the closet, I also retrieved a MacPlus that booted A-OK from a removable hard drive...except I could not find the mouse! Mac no mouse = no go... So, I have no 5.25 360K drive available to create a boot disk for either the Compaq or the Kaypro :-( I'm now wondering if I can find a SCSI 5.25 low density drive to attach to the portable hard drive of the MAC to create a boot disk for the Compaq. >From the Compaq's DOS I'd be able to create the boot disk for the Kaypro using the usual tools. Of course, I'd have to locate a mouse appropriate for the MAC... I guess the ideal thing would be to find a drive and controller for my "modern" machine. I'll check out the leads you gave me. Hopefully some kind soul will send me a bootable Kaypro disk and/or a MS-DOS disk on 5.25 360K media. Hey! Ain't this fun! -Larry ... -- This is not an automated signature. I type this in to the bottom of every message. Larry, Go to _www.vintage-computer.com_ (http://www.vintage-computer.com) and do a search on that topic. Also, contact "Sharkonwheels" there - again do a search - he posts a lot. He is into the Kaypros "after" 1983 versions - i.e. the "2X's", I am into the 1983 versions. Looks like it may have been upgraded with the Turbo. I believe such upgrades are still available for the post 1983 versions - Advent might be a search word to use. Shark will know. He even sells modified Kaypros of that era. Getting the right boot disk for the specific Kaypro you have is critical - many do not understand this - today you need Windows - there are not very many main options. Kaypro had about 15 - 20 different versions before they went bankrupt. Also, in those hectic times, many "unofficial' modifications were made that may not have been documented, by Kaypro and previous owners of such computers. Modifications and upgrades were very common in order to try to keep them running efficiently, until the inevitable change to windows, after we all invested so much in those systems, especially our time! Sometimes you just have to take the top off and look around, especially at chips at U43 and U47. Please post your results on that site so others can benefit. You can check my site out - _www.kayprosts.org_ (http://www.kayprosts.org) - under the folder "special" for a draft of my book on computers of that era and a 2008 Kaypro calendar I did - lots of pictures of my 6 1983 Kaypros modified to Kaypro " 8 ' 's. All the best. Frank From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Feb 11 08:57:58 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 09:57:58 -0500 Subject: Reply - Re: Boot Disk Needed for Kaypro 2X In-Reply-To: <555487b0902110639l122c9005sd08d5bf1267bc06e@mail.gmail.com> References: <555487b0902110639l122c9005sd08d5bf1267bc06e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 9:39 AM, Larry Yates wrote: > While in the closet, I also retrieved a MacPlus that booted A-OK from a > removable hard drive...except I could not find the mouse! > Mac no mouse = no go... The Apple mice from that era are simple raw X-Y quadrature... If you really can't locate a genuine Apple Mouse from either an early Mac or an Apple II (same part), it should be simple to adapt either a Microsoft Bus Mouse or an Amiga Mouse, perhaps with just a passive cable adapter. If you are a serious hardware hacker, it *might* be possible to hack out the microcontroller in a "smart" mouse (serial, ADB, PS/2, USB, etc). I'm referring to the types that still have optical wheels and phototransistors, not "optical" mice, of course. I don't know for certain if the transistors and LEDs in a "ball" mouse are specifically compatible with the drive from a Mac Plus, but it could be as simple as trace cuts, a new cable, and perhaps some current-limiting resistors. I've recycled quite a few USB ball mice (since nobody wants them anymore) for the USB cable for USB-interfaced LCD panels (like the 2x20 picoLCD), and from what I've seen in the guts of them, there's nothing inherently different about the optomechanical sections of a USB mouse and a pre-ADB Mac mouse. Of course, locating a "real" Mac mouse shouldn't be impossible if hacking LEDs and phototransistors isn't your thing. -ethan -ethan From ian_primus at yahoo.com Wed Feb 11 08:58:24 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 06:58:24 -0800 (PST) Subject: Reply - Re: Boot Disk Needed for Kaypro 2X In-Reply-To: <555487b0902110639l122c9005sd08d5bf1267bc06e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <147609.36800.qm@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 2/11/09, Larry Yates wrote: > My original plan is/was to retrieve my Compaq Portable (my > wife buried it in > a closet) to create a boot disk...only to find that I could > not > locate the MS-DOS boot disk for the Compaq?!?! > So, I have no 5.25 360K drive available to create a boot > disk for either the > Compaq or the Kaypro :-( > > I'm now wondering if I can find a SCSI 5.25 low density > drive to attach to > the portable hard drive of the MAC to create a boot disk > for the Compaq. > >From the Compaq's DOS I'd be able to create the > boot disk for the Kaypro > using the usual tools. You'll drive yourself crazy trying to locate a SCSI 5 1/4" floppy drive. No such device exists. There were some special external SCSI boxes with 5 1/4" and 3 1/2" disk drives in them, but the drives weren't SCSI - there was a controller to convert them. And they didn't work like regular devices, they needed special drivers. > I guess the ideal thing would be to find a drive and > controller for my > "modern" machine. You shouldn't need a special controller or special drive, if you have a PC/clone around. You CAN write 360k disks with a 1.2mb drive. You just need to use DD media. Bulk erased disks work best, or you can format the disk as 80 track DD (720k) first, then reformat to 40 track. This helps to remove any extra data that might remain, if the disk was originally written in a 360k drive. Not always necessary either. The disk should boot on a 360k drive, but it won't be reliable if you intend to write to it in the 360k drive. So, what you do is make the boot disk on DD media in the 1.2mb drive, boot the target computer, then format a fresh DD disk in the target computer, and copy the boot disk you made onto the fresh disk. Or, better yet, just hook a 360k drive up to the PC. They shouldn't be that hard to find - and you can always borrow one out of another computer (like the Compaq). Or, just pop the top off the Compaq, unhook the drive, and hook it up to your PC with a long floppy cable. -Ian From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Feb 11 10:15:24 2009 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 10:15:24 -0600 Subject: KEEP annoucement In-Reply-To: <163955.65278.qm@web35302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <163955.65278.qm@web35302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4992F99C.4060902@oldskool.org> Lee Courtney wrote: >> From another mailing list: > > What list? Probably the IGDA Game Preservation mailing list. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From slawmaster at gmail.com Wed Feb 11 10:57:54 2009 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 11:57:54 -0500 Subject: Nicolet 660 Message-ID: <7d3530220902110857h7dfea298l7196cc12b4d4d29e@mail.gmail.com> Hi everyone A kind list member in my area has offered me a Nicolet 660 computer free if I can haul it off, so I'm hoping to see if anyone else has any information about it. Luckily all the documentation seems to still be there so it's not a total mystery machine, but Google doesn't really offer any info on it. The Nicolet is a hip-high (3'?) cabinet that acts like a mini rack (units slide in and out on rails). The disk unit sits on top and has two SCSI 3.5" floppy drives and an SMD hard disk. Under that is the CPU unit, which has (as I recall) a start/stop button, a program1 button, a program2 button, and a power switch. There is a VGA monitor and an AT keyboard to go with it, both Nicolet branded. The OS is called NICOS and apparently is FORTH-based. It also includes floppies for FORTRAN, PASCAL, and BASIC. There is also a lot of software for data collection and processing, as this was once hooked up to lab equipment. Apparently the hard drive has died. Is it easy to get replacement SMD disks, or are there adapters that would let me plug in a SCSI drive or something more common? This seems to be a very unique piece of equipment that I would like to try to get working. Thanks! John Floren -- "I've tried programming Ruby on Rails, following TechCrunch in my RSS reader, and drinking absinthe. It doesn't work. I'm going back to C, Hunter S. Thompson, and cheap whiskey." -- Ted Dziuba From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Feb 11 11:27:05 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 17:27:05 +0000 Subject: Advice for Tek 4051 vector-drawing issue? In-Reply-To: <49924848.1080601@mail.msu.edu> References: <499144EE.3020002@mail.msu.edu> <499158D2.2020301@philpem.me.uk> <49924848.1080601@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <49930A69.504@philpem.me.uk> Josh Dersch wrote: > Thanks for the suggestion! Made two discoveries: > > 1) The schematics on Bitsavers do not correspond to the revision of the > machine I have (mine appears to be earlier). I have a printed set of > them, so I'm OK (I mistakenly assumed both were the same). There are no > X/Y test points on my Tek's display board, but it was easy enough to > hook up to the X/Y connector (J55, for those playing along at home). Good call with the X/Y connector. They might have pulled them off the board layouts and not updated the schematics... Not a very Tek thing to do, but that sort of thing can happen. > 2) Having done so, it looks like the display filters are at fault. The > oscilloscope display is distorted in exactly the same way as it is on > the Tek's display. Divide-and-conquer's great, isn't it? :) Which leaves you -- as you quite rightly said -- the path between the DACs and the deflection system, which is basically the filters. > Now to start debugging from here... (and maybe I should get these > schematics to Al for archiving...) would dried up capacitors be a likely > culprit? It'd be worth looking into, and the first thing I'd check. The schematic (Vol2, p.2-12) shows no electrolytics in that path other than two pairs of 1uf decouplers on the opamps -- C853, C854, C871, and C872. I'd ignore those for now, unless the power supply is abnormally noisy. That part of the circuit is basically all 'dry' capacitors, i.e. no electrolyte. You've got two 0u01 (10nf) Paktron "plastic" capacitors per filter, and a 470pf ceramic. I suspect those are probably good, they don't usually fail unless overvoltaged or otherwise abused in some way. The parts manifest suggests that R965 (one of the 39meg resistors) is a carbon-composition type. Just about anything will make these things change value, but the main killers are age and (again) voltage stress. They're a known cause of failure in old kit, and generally the value will increase over time. That screws the time-constant of the filter, lowering the cutoff frequency. My plan-of-action would be something along these lines: 1) If you've got a DMM that goes as high as ~40 megohms, desolder one leg of each of the 39M resistors and check them. If not, desolder the existing resistors and replace them, but keep the old ones for now in case their replacement causes problems. 2) Also check R894 and R961 (100R 5% carbon-comp) and their mates in the X filter. These supply power to the opamps. If these have gone high in value, the opamp may have trouble sourcing current into the output circuit. This will reduce the filter's cutoff frequency as well... 3) If that didn't fix it, check the other resistors in the filters. For the Y filter, that's R962, R963 and R964. 4) If the opamps are socketed, swap them both out. You'll want a Signetics N5558, which Google tells me crosses to the MC1458. Which is still fairly common after all these years :) This wouldn't be my first choice, though. Again, unless overstressed these don't generally fail. 5) Those plastic and ceramic capacitors are IMO the least likely to fail (but tied with the opamp in the "chance of failure" stakes). Let me know how you get on, this is starting to get interesting :) Cheers, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From ian_primus at yahoo.com Wed Feb 11 11:27:56 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 09:27:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: Nicolet 660 In-Reply-To: <7d3530220902110857h7dfea298l7196cc12b4d4d29e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <79085.44996.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 2/11/09, John Floren wrote: > A kind list member in my area has offered me a Nicolet 660 > computer > free if I can haul it off, so I'm hoping to see if > anyone else has any > information about it. Hmm. Yeah, I've never heard of Nicolet either. Interesting find! > The Nicolet is a hip-high (3'?) cabinet that acts like > a mini rack > (units slide in and out on rails). The disk unit sits on > top and has > two SCSI 3.5" floppy drives and an SMD hard disk. > Apparently the hard drive has died. Is it easy to get > replacement SMD > disks, or are there adapters that would let me plug in a > SCSI drive or > something more common? This seems to be a very unique piece > of > equipment that I would like to try to get working. I don't know of any available adapters, but SMD drives shouldn't be too hard to find. What type of drives is in there currently? What's the form factor? SMD drives exist in many sizes and types, and you need to find one that's compatible. Most SMD drives use 8" or 9" platters, although 5 1/4" drives were made, they're pretty rare. 14" platter drives were also common. Ideally, you'd want to find another drive of the same type as the dead one. SMD controllers need to know all the specs of a drive, it's not automatic like SCSI, so you need to find a drive that's compatible. If it's something like a Seagate/CDC Sabre, then it shouldn't be hard at all to find another one. What's wrong with the drive? SMD drives are repairable, provided the HDA (head disk assembly) has not crashed. Many SMD drives contain their own power supply - it may have failed. I've repaired several drives that didn't work, but the disk mechanism itself was fine. -Ian From slawmaster at gmail.com Wed Feb 11 11:55:17 2009 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 12:55:17 -0500 Subject: Nicolet 660 In-Reply-To: <79085.44996.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <7d3530220902110857h7dfea298l7196cc12b4d4d29e@mail.gmail.com> <79085.44996.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7d3530220902110955t79309e90ob454d258f30f2b17@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 12:27 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > --- On Wed, 2/11/09, John Floren wrote: > >> A kind list member in my area has offered me a Nicolet 660 >> computer >> free if I can haul it off, so I'm hoping to see if >> anyone else has any >> information about it. > > Hmm. Yeah, I've never heard of Nicolet either. Interesting find! > >> The Nicolet is a hip-high (3'?) cabinet that acts like >> a mini rack >> (units slide in and out on rails). The disk unit sits on >> top and has >> two SCSI 3.5" floppy drives and an SMD hard disk. > >> Apparently the hard drive has died. Is it easy to get >> replacement SMD >> disks, or are there adapters that would let me plug in a >> SCSI drive or >> something more common? This seems to be a very unique piece >> of >> equipment that I would like to try to get working. > > I don't know of any available adapters, but SMD drives shouldn't be too hard to find. What type of drives is in there currently? What's the form factor? SMD drives exist in many sizes and types, and you need to find one that's compatible. Most SMD drives use 8" or 9" platters, although 5 1/4" drives were made, they're pretty rare. 14" platter drives were also common. > > Ideally, you'd want to find another drive of the same type as the dead one. SMD controllers need to know all the specs of a drive, it's not automatic like SCSI, so you need to find a drive that's compatible. > > If it's something like a Seagate/CDC Sabre, then it shouldn't be hard at all to find another one. > > What's wrong with the drive? SMD drives are repairable, provided the HDA (head disk assembly) has not crashed. Many SMD drives contain their own power supply - it may have failed. I've repaired several drives that didn't work, but the disk mechanism itself was fine. > > -Ian > The disk has either 8" or 9" platters; the original drive (which was replaced year back) was a Priam so the new one may be the same or it might possibly be a CDC. It's not totally clear whether the problem is in the drive or the controller. The drive spins up, but the disk diagnostic test fails. John -- "I've tried programming Ruby on Rails, following TechCrunch in my RSS reader, and drinking absinthe. It doesn't work. I'm going back to C, Hunter S. Thompson, and cheap whiskey." -- Ted Dziuba From ian_primus at yahoo.com Wed Feb 11 12:16:32 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 10:16:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Nicolet 660 In-Reply-To: <7d3530220902110955t79309e90ob454d258f30f2b17@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <374977.76856.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 2/11/09, John Floren wrote: > The disk has either 8" or 9" platters; the > original drive (which was > replaced year back) was a Priam so the new one may be the > same or it > might possibly be a CDC. > > It's not totally clear whether the problem is in the > drive or the > controller. The drive spins up, but the disk diagnostic > test fails. The disk diagnostic on the computer, or on the drive? The newer CDC Sabre drives have built-in diagnostics. If you pop the center panel off the front, it reveals a hex keypad and an LCD display. Older CDC drives will have an LED hex display and a couple buttons. (Of course, not all of them have this, it was an option...). Does the disk come ready, or does the fault light come on after it spins up? Can you bring the disk online, and hear the heads load? If you find out what model drive it is, you can get the manual (Bitsavers has a fair number of CDC manuals), and find the diagnostic commands for it. You should be able to unhook the drive from the computer, and power just the drive, and run tests right on the disk. If it seeks OK and spins, then you might have a bad interface board on the drive, or on the computer, a bad cable, improper termination (ensure the terminator's ground lead is connected!), or maybe just a corrupt filesystem, or possibly still bad blocks/tracks/surfaces on the disk. I don't remember if there are any on-disk read/write tests or not, but you wouldn't want to corrupt the system software anyway. Can you boot the computer off floppy disk/tape/whatever? -Ian From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 11 12:20:37 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 13:20:37 -0500 Subject: Nicolet 660 In-Reply-To: <79085.44996.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <79085.44996.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <67F015A1-DE71-4FB6-BFAF-C8617E7F89DB@neurotica.com> On Feb 11, 2009, at 12:27 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >> A kind list member in my area has offered me a Nicolet 660 >> computer >> free if I can haul it off, so I'm hoping to see if >> anyone else has any >> information about it. > > Hmm. Yeah, I've never heard of Nicolet either. Interesting find! Wow, never heard of them? Dating back to the 80s, they've made (and still make, as far as I'm aware) some of the finest digitizing oscilloscopes that money (a LOT of it) can buy. They also made quite a bit of CAMAC equipment. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From kmar at lle.rochester.edu Wed Feb 11 12:45:12 2009 From: kmar at lle.rochester.edu (Kenneth L. Marshall) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 13:45:12 -0500 Subject: Nicolet 660 In-Reply-To: <374977.76856.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <374977.76856.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <16783AD9-AC38-45D2-A3B8-989889471281@lle.rochester.edu> On Feb 11, 2009, at 1:16 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > --- On Wed, 2/11/09, John Floren wrote: > >> The disk has either 8" or 9" platters; the >> original drive (which was >> replaced year back) was a Priam so the new one may be the >> same or it >> might possibly be a CDC. >> >> It's not totally clear whether the problem is in the >> drive or the >> controller. The drive spins up, but the disk diagnostic >> test fails. > All: Greetings- I am the person that has the NIcolet 660 in my lab. John is working with me to get the system back up and eventually get it relocated. With John's permission, I'm going to answer some of these questions directly, since I guess I have the most first-hand knowledge of what the current state of the system is. > The disk diagnostic on the computer, or on the drive? The diagnostic on the computer as run from a floppy, There are several diagnostic programs on a separate 3.5" disk. System can be booted either from a floppy or from the SMD disk. > The newer CDC Sabre drives have built-in diagnostics. If you pop the > center panel off the front, it reveals a hex keypad and an LCD > display. Older CDC drives will have an LED hex display and a couple > buttons. (Of course, not all of them have this, it was an option...). The SMD drive was replaced in 1988, the system was delivered and set up in 1986. So it's a fairly old drive. The whole unit was in working condition up to about 2 years ago, when the SMD boot-up problem occurred. > > > Does the disk come ready, or does the fault light come on after it > spins up? Can you bring the disk online, and hear the heads load? Can't say at this point- the disk is enclosed in a rack-mounted case and it's fairly difficult to get the rack out to get physical access to the disk. I do remember when I looked at it last that the disk appeared to be spinning up (it gives that characteristic "whine" of the platters spinning up), but the unit is in an area where there is a large amount of air flow ( a chem lab) and it's difficult to make out any other sounds. I never did look at the diagnostic led's on the drive itself- maybe they were buried toward the back of the rack unit and hard to see- I don't remember for sure. > > > If you find out what model drive it is, you can get the manual > (Bitsavers has a fair number of CDC manuals), and find the > diagnostic commands for it. You should be able to unhook the drive > from the computer, and power just the drive, and run tests right on > the disk. If it seeks OK and spins, then you might have a bad > interface board on the drive, or on the computer, a bad cable, > improper termination (ensure the terminator's ground lead is > connected!), or maybe just a corrupt filesystem, or possibly still > bad blocks/tracks/surfaces on the disk. I don't remember if there > are any on-disk read/write tests or not, but you wouldn't want to > corrupt the system software anyway. > > Can you boot the computer off floppy disk/tape/whatever? Yes, I was able to boot from the Nicolet Operating System (NICOS) floppy disk and run tests from the diagnostics floppy, but as I remember the disk diagnostic program (SMDBUSTER) returns a NIcolet error code (which I don't have any documentation on) and a text error message which says "disk not accessible" (or something like that). With John's help, we will try to open the unit up later in the week to get more details and see if we can find those drive status lights- maybe they will give more of a clue. Regards, Ken Marshall > > > -Ian > > Kenneth L. Marshall Research Engineer, Optical Materials Laboratory for Laser Energetics University of Rochester 250 East River Rd Rochester, NY 14623 Phone: (585)-275-8247 Fax: (585)-275-5960 From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 11 12:36:24 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 10:36:24 -0800 Subject: Nicolet 660 In-Reply-To: <67F015A1-DE71-4FB6-BFAF-C8617E7F89DB@neurotica.com> References: <79085.44996.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <67F015A1-DE71-4FB6-BFAF-C8617E7F89DB@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4992AA28.14553.559B8ED@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Feb 2009 at 13:20, Dave McGuire wrote: > Wow, never heard of them? Dating back to the 80s, they've made > (and still make, as far as I'm aware) some of the finest digitizing > oscilloscopes that money (a LOT of it) can buy. They also made quite > a bit of CAMAC equipment. I used a Nicolet Logic Analyzer years ago and really liked it. And Nicolet-Zeta made some very fine plotters. In the 70's, Nicolet made a foray into medical CT equipment. I remember that they left a lot of X-ray equipment around for trash pickup when the operation closed. I was sore tempted to filch a box of Picker X-ray tubes they had left out, but conscience got the better of me. Cheers, Chuck From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Feb 11 13:10:48 2009 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 19:10:48 -0000 Subject: Simulation vs breadboarding (was Replacing failedpowersupplieson qbus PDP-11s) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <073730242D1D477C975C9DCB40DA946C@AntonioPC> cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: >>> Aquarius project? >> >> Every computer company had an Aquarius project at some point. >> >> That damn song... > > Perhaps. In the case of DEC, it was because it was their > first watercooled machine. It had a somewhat reduced > performance counterpart codenamed "Aridus" (as in "dry"). > That one shipped as the VAX 8800 series; Aquarius was canceled. The VAX 88x0 was Polarstar (or at least the > 2 CPUs variant was). The VAX 8700/8800 was Nautilus (conceptually the same as polarstar but many backplane bits and the console [I think] changed along the way). The VAX 8500 was Flounder (?) and apparently became Skipjack once they took the NOPs out of the microcode ... The VAX 9000 was Aquarius (and ended up as Aridus, I don't know what changed other than not piping water through it). Millstone would have been better methinks. IIRC it was a $4B project that sold of the order of 500 machines @ ~ $1M each. Antonio From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Wed Feb 11 13:34:59 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 14:34:59 -0500 Subject: Simulation vs breadboarding (was Replacing failedpowersupplieson qbus PDP-11s) References: <073730242D1D477C975C9DCB40DA946C@AntonioPC> Message-ID: <18835.10339.721662.523339@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "arcarlini" == arcarlini writes: arcarlini> cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: >>>> Aquarius project? >>> Every computer company had an Aquarius project at some point. >>> >>> That damn song... >> Perhaps. In the case of DEC, it was because it was their first >> watercooled machine. It had a somewhat reduced performance >> counterpart codenamed "Aridus" (as in "dry"). That one shipped as >> the VAX 8800 series; Aquarius was canceled. arcarlini> The VAX 88x0 was Polarstar ... arcarlini> The VAX 9000 was Aquarius (and ended up as Aridus, I don't arcarlini> know what changed other than not piping water through arcarlini> it). ... Oops, you're right of course, I mixed up the model numbers. paul From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Feb 11 14:26:58 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 12:26:58 -0800 (PST) Subject: Reply - Re: Boot Disk Needed for Kaypro 2X In-Reply-To: <147609.36800.qm@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <147609.36800.qm@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20090211121748.A24527@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 11 Feb 2009, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Or, better yet, just hook a 360k drive up to the PC. They shouldn't be > that hard to find - and you can always borrow one out of another > computer (like the Compaq). Or, just pop the top off the Compaq, unhook > the drive, and hook it up to your PC with a long floppy cable. Or rip the top off of the compaq and stick in a 720K 3.5" drive. Make the 3.5" boot disk with DOS 3.20 or higher. Once booted, you can use it to make a 5.25" boot disk on the B: drive. The original Compaq "Portable" with two floppy drives will accept generic MS-DOS or IBM PC-DOS. Once you get it booted, you WILL want to use Compaq MS-DOS, or at least copy certain files over. For example, MODE.COM has differences for the Compaq in terms of external monitor, etc. BTW, the Compaq internal monitor is capable of EGA, but the Compaq EGA board (with the mid-board connector for the internal monitor) is hard to find. At least one other video board company sold a daughter board to convert one of their EGA boards for Compaq use. Windows 3.0 can be run on the 8088 Compaq (either CGA or EGA), if you really want to suffer. If you get one of the 80286 Compaqs then you can run Windoze 3.10 -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Feb 11 14:29:22 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 12:29:22 -0800 (PST) Subject: reversing case yellowing Message-ID: Over at Atariage.com is a discussion about reversing the yellowing of plastic. The procedure was designed by chemical and plastics engineers. It works and doesn't weaken the plastic. See http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=138244&hl= and http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=37808 for the original source. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu From brianlanning at gmail.com Wed Feb 11 14:38:17 2009 From: brianlanning at gmail.com (Brian Lanning) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 14:38:17 -0600 Subject: reversing case yellowing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6dbe3c380902111238h3956e3a5q485baeb6d4969d37@mail.gmail.com> There was a lot of talk about this on the amiga forums. Apparently it works great. The main problem seems to be getting a concentrated-enough batch of hydrogen peroxide, though it's not a big deal. The other thing is that the ultra-violet light is a key ingredient. From what I understand, the ultra-violet light destabilizes the oxygen bond so the peroxide can pick it up. brian On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 2:29 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > Over at Atariage.com is a discussion about reversing the yellowing of > plastic. The procedure was designed by chemical and plastics engineers. It > works and doesn't weaken the plastic. See > http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=138244&hl= and > http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=37808 for the original source. > > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > From arcarlini at iee.org Wed Feb 11 14:43:15 2009 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 20:43:15 -0000 Subject: reversing case yellowing In-Reply-To: <6dbe3c380902111238h3956e3a5q485baeb6d4969d37@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > There was a lot of talk about this on the amiga forums. > Apparently it works great. The main problem seems to be > getting a concentrated-enough batch of hydrogen peroxide, > though it's not a big deal. The other thing is that the > ultra-violet light is a key ingredient. From what I > understand, the ultra-violet light destabilizes the oxygen > bond so the peroxide can pick it up. I like this bit: [ 4. The optimum mixture and conditions for reversing yellowing of plastics seems to be the following:- A) Hydrogen peroxide solution, the strongest you can lay hands on; ] http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/6175427.stm http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/07/21/1984429.htm Doesn't say if there were yellowed Atari and Amiga cases lying around. :-) Antonio From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Feb 11 15:01:55 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 13:01:55 -0800 Subject: Nicolet 660 References: <79085.44996.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <67F015A1-DE71-4FB6-BFAF-C8617E7F89DB@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <49933CC3.DBEB09F6@cs.ubc.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > > On Feb 11, 2009, at 12:27 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > > > Hmm. Yeah, I've never heard of Nicolet either. Interesting find! > > Wow, never heard of them? Dating back to the 80s, they've made > (and still make, as far as I'm aware) some of the finest digitizing > oscilloscopes that money (a LOT of it) can buy. They also made quite > a bit of CAMAC equipment. A little bit earlier than the 80's even, the radio museum here has two early Nicolet digital scopes, one of which at least is ca. mid-70s, it has a fairly early 8080 in it. I had a brief opportunity to check it out before the switching power supply decided to go poof. Rather coarse display by modern expectations, I don't know what the sampling rate or actual bandwidth was. Didn't seem like it was going to be very useful so I haven't made much effort to repair it. The first commercial digital scope I'm aware of is the HP 5480 digital signal analyser, from 1969 IIRC, uses core memory(!). (I have one that's languishing inoperative for lack of a manual.) From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Feb 11 15:13:19 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 16:13:19 -0500 Subject: Nicolet 660 In-Reply-To: <49933CC3.DBEB09F6@cs.ubc.ca> References: <79085.44996.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <67F015A1-DE71-4FB6-BFAF-C8617E7F89DB@neurotica.com> <49933CC3.DBEB09F6@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > The first commercial digital scope I'm aware of is the HP 5480 digital signal > analyser, from 1969 IIRC, uses core memory(!). (I have one that's languishing > inoperative for lack of a manual.) Fabritek also made a digital scope - spectrum analyzer like thing about the same time. RCS has one - we have never played with it. It is a real power sucker, as it is crammed with early MECL 1 ECL (in cans!). I am pretty sure it has a core stack in it as well. -- Will From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Feb 11 15:26:51 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 16:26:51 -0500 Subject: reversing case yellowing References: <6dbe3c380902111238h3956e3a5q485baeb6d4969d37@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4BC23C2D2EF542988F01DC65589B1891@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Lanning" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 3:38 PM Subject: Re: reversing case yellowing > There was a lot of talk about this on the amiga forums. Apparently it > works great. The main problem seems to be getting a > concentrated-enough batch of hydrogen peroxide, though it's not a big > deal. The other thing is that the ultra-violet light is a key > ingredient. From what I understand, the ultra-violet light > destabilizes the oxygen bond so the peroxide can pick it up. > > brian > Peroxide is just H2O2 (water being H2O). You have an unstable molecule with an extra Oxygen compared to water (which is stable). Any heat, major vibration, or even UV light will decompose peroxide into Water and Free Oxygen, the Oxygen combines with whatever discolors the plastic and then goes into solution. Heat isn't used because people are worried about plastic warping I guess (or because the reaction is too fast). If you look on the English Amiga Board (EAB) they have a more detailed recipe including some other chemicals added to speed things up. Contact with metal also decomposes hydrogen peroxide (as the Russians found out with leaky torpedoes on the Kursk submarine a while back), but adding free oxygen to mild steel will just rust the hell out of it in a hurry (so if you have plastic+ mild steel parts you will have issues). The problems I have seen with this method is some pieces do not whiten the same and you have blotches, also some mold marks (swirling caused when the hot plastic is injected into the mold) show up where they were not noticable before. I generaly just wash/scrub yellowed parts with dishwashing detergent with "oxy" on the label, the scrubbing releases some oxygen from the soap and you slightly whiten whatever you are cleaning (and remove dirt as well). It will not make anything yellowed look new, but I just want the stuff clean and a shade whiter. Anything that had yellowed is mostly from a bad mix of UV stabilizer in the plastic (to keep the plastic from turning into dust after years of exposure to sunlight), and the odds it will yellow again down the road are probably good (you just cleaned up the surface and not deep into the plastic). So you will need a coating of UV protectand to keep anything you cleaned looking good. P.S. If you use concentrated peroxide much above the 3% solution you use on cuts make sure you have a face shield, chemical gloves, and some kind of chemical apron unless you want to go blind, ruin your clothes, and mess up your skin for a while. From FJGJR1 at aol.com Wed Feb 11 15:50:15 2009 From: FJGJR1 at aol.com (FJGJR1 at aol.com) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 16:50:15 EST Subject: My reply - Boot Disk Needed for Kaypro 2X Message-ID: Larry, >From the info you gave and the info I have, I offer the following. You need a "CP / M boot disk", not an MS-DOS boot disk for the Kaypro 2X - either 2.2H or 2.2G. CP / M. Your mainboard shoud be an 81-294 [underneath board usually under serial port] and the ROM version should be 81-292-A - white label on the about 1" size chip at U47. But since you have a Turbo upgrade, the chip may have just a Turbo designation. Any manufacturer designation and revision / year, etc. could also be important. Also check what the U43 chip label is - usually again a white label on a 1" size chip. There is also a Kaypro 2X / MTC version. How do you really know it is a 2X - cover designation, back plate designation, etc.? These are all common questions many ask and many of us answer as best we can from the info you give and the info we have All the best and keep us informed of your progress. We like to keep "vintage" computers running and in "good homes!" ========================================================================== In a message dated 2/11/2009 9:42:16 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, laptoplarry at gmail.com writes: Frank, Thank you for the information! My original plan is/was to retrieve my Compaq Portable (my wife buried it in a closet) to create a boot disk...only to find that I could not locate the MS-DOS boot disk for the Compaq?!?! While in the closet, I also retrieved a MacPlus that booted A-OK from a removable hard drive...except I could not find the mouse! Mac no mouse = no go... So, I have no 5.25 360K drive available to create a boot disk for either the Compaq or the Kaypro :-( I'm now wondering if I can find a SCSI 5.25 low density drive to attach to the portable hard drive of the MAC to create a boot disk for the Compaq. >From the Compaq's DOS I'd be able to create the boot disk for the Kaypro using the usual tools. Of course, I'd have to locate a mouse appropriate for the MAC... I guess the ideal thing would be to find a drive and controller for my "modern" machine. I'll check out the leads you gave me. Hopefully some kind soul will send me a bootable Kaypro disk and/or a MS-DOS disk on 5.25 360K media. Hey! Ain't this fun! -Larry ... -- This is not an automated signature. I type this in to the bottom of every message. Larry, Go to _www.vintage-computer.com_ (http://www.vintage-computer.com) and do a search on that topic. Also, contact "Sharkonwheels" there - again do a search - he posts a lot. He is into the Kaypros "after" 1983 versions - i.e. the "2X's", I am into the 1983 versions. Looks like it may have been upgraded with the Turbo. I believe such upgrades are still available for the post 1983 versions - Advent might be a search word to use. Shark will know. He even sells modified Kaypros of that era. Getting the right boot disk for the specific Kaypro you have is critical - many do not understand this - today you need Windows - there are not very many main options. Kaypro had about 15 - 20 different versions before they went bankrupt. Also, in those hectic times, many "unofficial' modifications were made that may not have been documented, by Kaypro and previous owners of such computers. Modifications and upgrades were very common in order to try to keep them running efficiently, until the inevitable change to windows, after we all invested so much in those systems, especially our time! Sometimes you just have to take the top off and look around, especially at chips at U43 and U47. Please post your results on that site so others can benefit. You can check my site out - _www.kayprosts.org_ (http://www.kayprosts.org) - under the folder "special" for a draft of my book on computers of that era and a 2008 Kaypro calendar I did - lots of pictures of my 6 1983 Kaypros modified to Kaypro " 8 ' 's. All the best. Frank **************The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy Awards. AOL Music takes you there. (http://music.aol.com/grammys?ncid=emlcntusmusi00000002) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 11 13:53:26 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 19:53:26 +0000 (GMT) Subject: GNT 3601 tape punch docs? In-Reply-To: <20090210163432.GB1858@n0jcf.net> from "Chris Elmquist" at Feb 10, 9 10:34:33 am Message-ID: > > On Sunday (02/08/2009 at 05:10PM -0600), Chris Elmquist wrote: > > > > Now I'm working on figuring out the serial and parallel interfaces. > > The brains are an 8048 microcontroller and then it looks like the serial > > interface is handled by a classic old AY-3-1015 UART, which I'm assuming > > front-ends the parallel interface. Lots more discovery there... > > Just to close out this saga, I got lucky and after only a few trial and > errors, discovered that the unit accepts 300 baud, 8 bit, no parity, I think I;d have reduced the number of trial-and-errors by (a) looking at the state of the (5) model-select pins on that UART chip. They define the word size, parity and number of stop bits. And then I'd have hung a counter off the Rx clock pin of the UART (pin 17 IIRC) and measured the frequency. It's 16 times tbe baud rate. > 1 stop on a female DB25 DTE connection. It needs DSR on pin 6 asserted > before it will respond. > > But then whatever I send down the wire with those parameters, gets > punched on the tape. It works! It's very fast and very quiet compared > to an ASR-33 :-) My guess is that it'll keep up with the 300 baud data stream (i.e. 30 cps) and not need any flow control lines. That was quite common in paper tape punches -- the maximum available baud rate corresponted to the speed of the mechanism (or a litttle less). > > This was a nice save. > > Still searching for a manual though, because there are switches in there > that I don't know what they do... and you know, a guy could loose sleep > over that. It can't be that complicated... Noe's the time to learn the gentle art of tracing out a schematic... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 11 13:59:56 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 19:59:56 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Alignment disks, and the creation thereof In-Reply-To: <20090210150505.J70427@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Feb 10, 9 03:10:10 pm Message-ID: > > On Tue, 10 Feb 2009, Tony Duell wrote: > > I am curious as to what the 'real' alignment signals look like. One > > reference seemed to impley they were circular tracks not concentric with > > the spidnle. Making those would be 'fun'... > > The radial alignment tracks on the Dysan digital (according to what > Dysan said when they released it) ARE concentric, but with > individual sectors being out of spec on radius. Sure. But I am much more interested in the traditional analogue alignment disks. > > For non-concentric circular, couldn't you modify the disk clamping > mechanism to be slightly off of the spindle axis? The disk clamp isn't the problem, it generally 'floats' in an oversized hole anyway. You;'d need to make a replacement spindle with the necessary offset. Not too hard, but not tribial. The problem comes if you want 2 offset tracks say 180 drgrees out of phase (so one is at its innerpost point when the other is at the outermost point). Aligning the media to the offset hub accurately to do that would be 'interesting'. > > > > > Or, use a PC. Trivial software to convert a PC into a drive exercisor. > > Sure, ut a lot more bulky (which is an issue when I've got most of a > > classic ocmputer all over my workbench!). > > You don't also have a few PC's on your bench already? No. Not unless I am repairing one, in which case it's presumably not working, and in bits. And thus not suitable for use as a drive exerciser. Why would I want a PC on my bench? The calculations I need to do when I am designing are easily done on a simpler and more reliable device. A 42S for mechnical stuff (I need the trig functions for things like calculating the cordinates of equally spaced round a circle) and a 16C for electronics. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 11 14:27:56 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 20:27:56 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Reply - Re: Boot Disk Needed for Kaypro 2X In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Feb 11, 9 09:57:58 am Message-ID: > > On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 9:39 AM, Larry Yates wrote: > > While in the closet, I also retrieved a MacPlus that booted A-OK from a > > removable hard drive...except I could not find the mouse! > > Mac no mouse = no go... > > The Apple mice from that era are simple raw X-Y quadrature... > > If you really can't locate a genuine Apple Mouse from either an early > Mac or an Apple II (same part), it should be simple to adapt either a > Microsoft Bus Mouse or an Amiga Mouse, perhaps with just a passive > cable adapter. Or an Atar iST mouse, Acorn Archimedes mouse, or many others... My first Mac+ was given to me without a mouse. At the time Maplin were selling clone replacement mice for the ST and Amiga, I bought one of those (I forget which one) and changed the connector. It's very easy. The only problem is that there's no real way to know which way round to conenct the 2 quadrature signals for each axis, but if you get it wrong all that happens is the mouse works backwards. No damage, no magic smoke, and it's easy to fix. > > > > If you are a serious hardware hacker, it *might* be possible to hack > out the microcontroller in a "smart" mouse (serial, ADB, PS/2, USB, It is. The oprical sensorts are much the same in all such mice. The LEDs are constantly driven (so you can leave those alone), the phototransistors normally have one side grounds and the other side goes to the interface chip. In theory you should add something like a 74ls14 to buffer the signals, but it may not ne necessary. The main problem with doing this is the cable. You need at least 7 wires in the cale (+5V, ground, 4 quadrature signals and the button), which is more than in the cable of any smart mouse. So you need to fit a new cable. Finding a thin and flexile 7 way cable is a challenge. And then fitting a strain-relief at the mouse end is a second challenge. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 11 14:17:37 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 20:17:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: House cleaning! In-Reply-To: <49926FF4.7060303@mail.msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Feb 10, 9 10:28:04 pm Message-ID: A couple of repair-related comments for the lucky person who gets these... > - HP 9000/236 - W/Monitor. Works, but floppy controller reports errors > on startup. This is also known as a 9836. If it's the (common) monochrome version, it's a 9836A . The colour model is a 9836C. If reseeating the floppy controller board inside the machine (the board immediately behind the drives), then one common fault is the buffer RAM on the floppy cotnroller PCB,. There's a 256 byte RAM buffer there, either made fro ma pair of 2112s or 2114s (in the latter case the extra 2 address lines are grounds). If the latter, then, well, you know the reliability fo 2114s :-) > - HP 9826 - Was working, but monitor no longer powers up. Hmmm... Doies it do anything at power-up? On this machine, unlike the 9836, the coolung fan runs from the primary side of the mains transformer (on the 9836, it runs from the -12V output of the PSU, so if the fan runs on that mahcine, the PSU is doing _something_). So if the machine seems totally dead, it might be a PSU prolem. And of course forvideo to appear on the monitor, the CPU board has to be basically working, along with the rext video board. And the monitor PCB itself. This machine is somewhat strange in that the monitor PCB contains the horizontal deflection and video circuits only. The vertical deflection circuit is on the text video board. Also be warned when working on one of these that the CRT has no tension band or other implosion protection. The user is protected by the plastic anti-glare filter, but be careful when working inside the machine, especially if you have the monitor cover off. FWIW, I've worked on all 3 models (9826, 9836A, 9836C) and can probably help the new owner get them going again. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 11 15:53:16 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 21:53:16 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Need Fuji M2312 info In-Reply-To: from "Dave McGuire" at Feb 10, 9 04:18:25 pm Message-ID: > Thanks! Actually, it's the sectors per track setup that I > need. :-) I'll check the SC72 documentation tonight to see if I need > any other info. (oh, I'm sure I'll need device select configuration > info too..) OK, here's a paraphrase of the information I have from the manual for the 2311/2312 drives Switch SW1 at location E3 (on the CNAM PCB) Positions 1-3 : drive select. Switch 1 = LSB, swtich on = logic 1. Position 4 : Drive type. Off = 2311, On = 2312 Position 5 : Tag 4/5 Enable. On = Enale optional Tag 4 and Tag 5 functions Position 6 : Sector mode. On = variable soft sector, off = hard sector Position 7 : Write protect. On = Writing disabled. Secotor count configuration switchs, SW2 (location A26) and SW3 (location A24) of CNAM PCB. Each position represents a inary count of the byte clock : Sw2 position Value 1 1 2 2 3 4 4 8 5 16 6 32 7 64 SW3 position Value 1 128 2 256 3 512 4 1024 5 2048 6 4096 7 8192 To calculate setting from sectors per track : 1) Calculate number of bytes per sector = 20480/(sectors per track) 2) If the result is not an integer, round _up_ to next highest integer 3) Set SW2 and SW3 to number of bytes per sector (result of step 2) - 1 (to allow for counter reset clock). Switch ON if bit is a 1. 4) To determine how many bytes the last sector of each track will be short, multiply (bytes per sector (from step 2)) by (sectors per track) and subtract 20480. OR for a given sector size : 1) Set switches for sector size -1 (to allow for the reset clock) 2) Calculate sectors/track (= 20480 / (bytes per sector)) 3) If that is not an integer, round down to get actually secotrs per track. 4) Calculatr size of last sector = 20480 - (bytes per secotor) * (sectors per track) [That is a lot simpler than the procedure in the manual, but seems to give the same results!] -tony From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 11 16:09:17 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 14:09:17 -0800 Subject: reversing case yellowing In-Reply-To: <4BC23C2D2EF542988F01DC65589B1891@game> References: , <4BC23C2D2EF542988F01DC65589B1891@game> Message-ID: <4992DC0D.9936.61CA1E6@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Feb 2009 at 16:26, Teo Zenios wrote: > P.S. If you use concentrated peroxide much above the 3% solution you use on > cuts make sure you have a face shield, chemical gloves, and some kind of > chemical apron unless you want to go blind, ruin your clothes, and mess up > your skin for a while. Drugstore hair peroxide bleach ranges from 6 to 9 percent (20-30 volume) and does not require such precautions. Cheers, Chuck From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Feb 11 07:18:29 2009 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 08:18:29 -0500 Subject: 8048 Intel programming languages Message-ID: <0KEW002IBKWNVWQ1@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: 8048 Intel programming languages > From: Robert Borsuk > Date: Tue, 10 Feb 2009 21:51:42 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Steven and Allison, > I've spent some time today with SDCC and I'm sorry to say I couldn't >find any reference to 8048 in it. The 8051 yes. Unfortunately the >memory structure (specifically the banking and jumping) is different >between the 8048 and the 8051. How about this: Did they ever >release any sort of languages for the IMSAI 8048 board? You have an Imp48???? First if you have a manual I'd appreciate a copy, I've been looking for 28 years for one! Yes, I have one too, I know the general circuit for mine by reverse engineering it and I do use it for playing. As to languages for 8048, IMSAI never did. The concept of a higher level language for a board with 1K of program space is only a thing you hear lately. One reason is the limited stack and ram/romspace of the 8048 really does require the efficientcy of assembler. It's possile to create some varient of a tiny micro basic but then it has to fit in 1K and also any program in the same 1k. If you working with 8048/9 off that board more space is possible but remember the ability to address ram without some banking scheme is limited to 256 bytes. I'd say keep looking though as I've likely missed a few. I'm sure it's possible to tweak the code generator in SDCC to do 8048 and it's rare anyone uses more than 4k. But the compiler logic to do the bank switch is likely insane since interrupts are only handled in the low memory page. There are all sorts of cross assemblers out there. Allison > >Rob > > >On Feb 10, 2009, at 2:50 AM, Scanning wrote: > >> Rob, >> >> I think a good place for you to start is with the Small Device C >> Compiler >> ( http://sdcc.sourceforge.net/ ) and see if that will fit your >> needs. It >> supports 8048, 8051, etc.. family. Good luck. >> >> Best regards, Steven > > >>> Subject: 8048 Intel programming languages >>> From: Robert Borsuk >>> Date: Mon, 09 Feb 2009 11:19:04 -0500 >>> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> > >>>> Does anyone know of any programming languages (compilers)released >>>> for >>> the intel 8048 microcontroller? >>> >> >> Lookup SDCC, Small Device C Compiler. Theres plenty of stuff for >> 8048/9 family >> and it's cousin the 8051. >> >> Allison >> From charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com Wed Feb 11 10:51:28 2009 From: charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 08:51:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: KEEP annoucement In-Reply-To: <4992F99C.4060902@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <295090.55767.qm@web35307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> That was it - thanks Jim! Lee Courtney 2124 Ashton Avenue Menlo Park, CA 94025 650-704-3934 cell --- On Wed, 2/11/09, Jim Leonard wrote: > From: Jim Leonard > Subject: Re: KEEP annoucement > To: General at mail.mobygames.com, "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Wednesday, February 11, 2009, 8:15 AM > Lee Courtney wrote: > >> From another mailing list: > > > > What list? > > Probably the IGDA Game Preservation mailing list. > -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) > http://www.oldskool.org/ > Help our electronic games project: > http://www.mobygames.com/ > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at > http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ > A child borne of the home computer wars: > http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From philip at axeside.co.uk Wed Feb 11 12:42:25 2009 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 18:42:25 +0000 Subject: Nicolet 660 In-Reply-To: <79085.44996.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <79085.44996.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <49931C11.305@axeside.co.uk> > Hmm. Yeah, I've never heard of Nicolet either. Interesting find! Nicolet = desirable! Twenty years ago, they were making high end digital storage oscilloscopes. I have one of the ones they threw out at work a couple of years later, when they upgraded to a later Nicolet model. I haven't done anything with it yet, but it's solidly built, has a bitslice (4*2901 iirc) processor and a 5.25in floppy drive or two. Philip. From robert.stek at gmail.com Wed Feb 11 16:05:59 2009 From: robert.stek at gmail.com (Bob Stek) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 15:05:59 -0700 Subject: Ideas for disposing of entire collection Message-ID: <49934bcc.0516300a.08f4.ffffa42a@mx.google.com> I am happy to report that my large S-100 collection is going to a single person, both to expand his own collection and for eventual sale to other collectors. [sigh!] If only I had another 400 sq ft and another 40 hours/week. Thanks to everyone who responded with some good ideas (and requests!). The important thing to me is that it is all going to someone who will not be cutting off connectors to melt down for gold! I'm sure that he will let list members know what he has available in the next few months. Bob Stek Former Saver of Lost Sols From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 11 16:25:31 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 17:25:31 -0500 Subject: Need Fuji M2312 info In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2FA712BD-E276-46C4-8255-8930950A108B@neurotica.com> On Feb 11, 2009, at 4:53 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> Thanks! Actually, it's the sectors per track setup that I >> need. :-) I'll check the SC72 documentation tonight to see if I need >> any other info. (oh, I'm sure I'll need device select configuration >> info too..) > > OK, here's a paraphrase of the information I have from the manual > for the > 2311/2312 drives ... Thank you, Tony! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Feb 11 16:32:15 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 17:32:15 -0500 Subject: reversing case yellowing References: , <4BC23C2D2EF542988F01DC65589B1891@game> <4992DC0D.9936.61CA1E6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1123EFA991D74EE28CF634F3F1AFED67@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 5:09 PM Subject: Re: reversing case yellowing > On 11 Feb 2009 at 16:26, Teo Zenios wrote: > >> P.S. If you use concentrated peroxide much above the 3% solution you use >> on >> cuts make sure you have a face shield, chemical gloves, and some kind of >> chemical apron unless you want to go blind, ruin your clothes, and mess >> up >> your skin for a while. > > Drugstore hair peroxide bleach ranges from 6 to 9 percent (20-30 > volume) and does not require such precautions. > > Cheers, > Chuck > Well you just know somebody will get 30% industrial strength peroxide somewhere (work?). I would not want to get 6-9% in my eye anyway. From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 11 16:39:27 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 17:39:27 -0500 Subject: Nicolet 660 In-Reply-To: <49933CC3.DBEB09F6@cs.ubc.ca> References: <79085.44996.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <67F015A1-DE71-4FB6-BFAF-C8617E7F89DB@neurotica.com> <49933CC3.DBEB09F6@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <3D3C6F62-C9F9-403E-917B-BB752C38668D@neurotica.com> On Feb 11, 2009, at 4:01 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> Wow, never heard of them? Dating back to the 80s, they've made >> (and still make, as far as I'm aware) some of the finest digitizing >> oscilloscopes that money (a LOT of it) can buy. They also made quite >> a bit of CAMAC equipment. > > A little bit earlier than the 80's even, the radio museum here has > two early > Nicolet digital scopes, one of which at least is ca. mid-70s, it > has a fairly > early 8080 in it. Mmmm, I didn't know they went back that far! > I had a brief opportunity to check it out before the switching > power supply > decided to go poof. Rather coarse display by modern expectations, I > don't know > what the sampling rate or actual bandwidth was. Didn't seem like it > was going > to be very useful so I haven't made much effort to repair it. Coarse display, yes, but they're not run-of-the-mill digitizing scopes. Most digitizing oscilloscopes have a fairly coarse amplitude resolution (the absolutely wonderful HP 54111D is only 8-bit!) but many of these Nicolet scopes have much higher amplitude resolution, up to (I think) 10-12 bits. They're really neat units. The power supply poofage isn't uncommon, unfortunately. I've had three or four of those scopes (not as early as yours...late 80s vintage) over the past 15 years or so, and two of them experienced power supply failures. > The first commercial digital scope I'm aware of is the HP 5480 > digital signal > analyser, from 1969 IIRC, uses core memory(!). (I have one that's > languishing > inoperative for lack of a manual.) I drool. I'd love to get my grubby paws on one of those. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Feb 11 16:41:34 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 17:41:34 -0500 Subject: Nicolet 660 In-Reply-To: <49931C11.305@axeside.co.uk> References: <79085.44996.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <49931C11.305@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: On Feb 11, 2009, at 1:42 PM, Philip Belben wrote: >> Hmm. Yeah, I've never heard of Nicolet either. Interesting find! > > Nicolet = desirable! > > Twenty years ago, they were making high end digital storage > oscilloscopes. I have one of the ones they threw out at work a > couple of years later, when they upgraded to a later Nicolet > model. I haven't done anything with it yet, but it's solidly > built, has a bitslice (4*2901 iirc) processor and a 5.25in floppy > drive or two. They still make them, I think. I've not checked, but I know I've seen very recent Nicolet-branded digitizing scopes out in the wild. They typically have very high price tags. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Feb 11 16:50:20 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 17:50:20 -0500 Subject: Nicolet 660 In-Reply-To: References: <79085.44996.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <49931C11.305@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: Was it Nicolet that made that ultra fast sampling scope with liquid cooled JJs? At the time the sampling rate was phenomenal, but you needed a tank of liquid nitrogen handy. Mid 80s? -- Will From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Wed Feb 11 16:52:21 2009 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 17:52:21 -0500 Subject: Nicolet 660 Message-ID: <20090211175221.flxa41i4yow004c0@webmail2.centurytel.net> > Hmm. Yeah, I've never heard of Nicolet either. Interesting find! In the early 80's the company I worked for had a very neat little portable audio-range FFT spectrum analyzer called the "Mini-Ubiquitous". Always wanted one. In '92 the USAF transferred me to Dayton OH (home of Mendelson's Surplus) and they had one sitting in the pile of instruments for quite some time... but they wanted $400 for it. So they are hardly "ubiquitous" since I've only spotted two :) -Charles ps anyway I acquired an HP 3580A for $100 at the Hamvention which was an easy fix... anyone know where I can get some decent knobs for it? From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Feb 11 17:18:03 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 15:18:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: Ideas for disposing of entire collection In-Reply-To: <49934bcc.0516300a.08f4.ffffa42a@mx.google.com> References: <49934bcc.0516300a.08f4.ffffa42a@mx.google.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Feb 2009, Bob Stek wrote: > I am happy to report that my large S-100 collection is going to a single > person, both to expand his own collection and for eventual sale to other > collectors. [sigh!] If only I had another 400 sq ft and another 40 > hours/week. > > Thanks to everyone who responded with some good ideas (and requests!). The > important thing to me is that it is all going to someone who will not be > cutting off connectors to melt down for gold! I'm sure that he will let > list members know what he has available in the next few months. Congrantulations, I'm envious! Not of the person getting the stuff, but of you! Especially since you found someone that will hopefully take proper care of the stuff. Let's face it, stamp collectors have the right idea. Zane From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Feb 11 17:27:24 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 18:27:24 -0500 Subject: Alignment disks, and the creation thereof In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200902111827.24320.rtellason@verizon.net> > The problem comes if you want 2 offset tracks say 180 drgrees out of phase > (so one is at its innerpost point when the other is at the outermost point). > Aligning the media to the offset hub accurately to do that would > be 'interesting'. Didn't the Lisa have floppy drives with heads on opposite sides of the spindle? :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From sethm at loomcom.com Wed Feb 11 17:55:13 2009 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 15:55:13 -0800 Subject: Ideas for disposing of entire collection In-Reply-To: <49934bcc.0516300a.08f4.ffffa42a@mx.google.com> References: <49934bcc.0516300a.08f4.ffffa42a@mx.google.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 2:05 PM, Bob Stek wrote: > I am happy to report that my large S-100 collection is going to a single > person, both to expand his own collection and for eventual sale to other > collectors. Congratulations! I hope the buyer will fess up when he wants his name outed :) -Seth From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Feb 11 19:13:15 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 17:13:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: Alignment disks, and the creation thereof In-Reply-To: <200902111827.24320.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200902111827.24320.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20090211165209.C39613@shell.lmi.net> > > The problem comes if you want 2 offset tracks say 180 drgrees out of phase > > (so one is at its innerpost point when the other is at the outermost point). > > Aligning the media to the offset hub accurately to do that would > > be 'interesting'. On Wed, 11 Feb 2009, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Didn't the Lisa have floppy drives with heads on opposite sides of the > spindle? :-) the "twiggy" drive. Apparently, not all 5.25" diskettes had thumbprints on the media, so they added an extra access slot where your thumb would go 600 Oerstedt media, 96TPI??? There are 8 possible ways to put a 5.25" diskette into the drive, without damaging it. Did the Lisa have two sets of heads, or was the extra access slot there just to double the odds that the position in which it was inserted would work? From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Feb 11 20:19:41 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 18:19:41 -0800 Subject: Nicolet 660 In-Reply-To: References: <79085.44996.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <49931C11.305@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: Hi I have a Nicolet 1080 computer. It has 20 bits. They also made a 1280 as well. The 1080 was used mostly to do FFT's in a chemical MR machine. It was used for other analog data logging as well. There are only 4 of the 1080 machines that I know of that are still in existance. Three are in my general area of the world one in the UK. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live?: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_allup_explore_022009 From slawmaster at gmail.com Wed Feb 11 20:23:33 2009 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 21:23:33 -0500 Subject: Nicolet 660 In-Reply-To: References: <79085.44996.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <49931C11.305@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: <7d3530220902111823h2df3d410xb3b486cc048c5225@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 9:19 PM, dwight elvey wrote: > > > Hi > I have a Nicolet 1080 computer. It has 20 bits. > They also made a 1280 as well. The 1080 was used > mostly to do FFT's in a chemical MR machine. It > was used for other analog data logging as well. > There are only 4 of the 1080 machines that I know > of that are still in existance. > Three are in my general area of the world one in the > UK. > Dwight > > _________________________________________________________________ > Windows Live?: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect. > http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_allup_explore_022009 > As I understand it, the 660 was used for the same purpose--doing FFTs with chemical lab equipment. John -- "I've tried programming Ruby on Rails, following TechCrunch in my RSS reader, and drinking absinthe. It doesn't work. I'm going back to C, Hunter S. Thompson, and cheap whiskey." -- Ted Dziuba From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Feb 11 22:01:03 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 21:01:03 -0700 Subject: reversing case yellowing In-Reply-To: <4992DC0D.9936.61CA1E6@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4BC23C2D2EF542988F01DC65589B1891@game> <4992DC0D.9936.61CA1E6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <49939EFF.5040005@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Drugstore hair peroxide bleach ranges from 6 to 9 percent (20-30 > volume) and does not require such precautions. I guess he must have a bunch of the rocket fuel stuff. :) > Cheers, > Chuck > > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Feb 11 23:00:01 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 21:00:01 -0800 Subject: Nicolet 660 In-Reply-To: <7d3530220902111823h2df3d410xb3b486cc048c5225@mail.gmail.com> References: <79085.44996.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <49931C11.305@axeside.co.uk> <7d3530220902111823h2df3d410xb3b486cc048c5225@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 21:23:33 -0500 > From: slawmaster at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Nicolet 660 > > On Wed, Feb 11, 2009 at 9:19 PM, dwight elvey wrote: >> >> >> Hi >> I have a Nicolet 1080 computer. It has 20 bits. >> They also made a 1280 as well. The 1080 was used >> mostly to do FFT's in a chemical MR machine. It >> was used for other analog data logging as well. >> There are only 4 of the 1080 machines that I know >> of that are still in existance. >> Three are in my general area of the world one in the >> UK. >> Dwight >> > > > As I understand it, the 660 was used for the same purpose--doing FFTs > with chemical lab equipment. > In any case, these unique computers are worth saving. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_explore_022009 From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Wed Feb 11 23:17:11 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 21:17:11 -0800 Subject: Advice for Tek 4051 vector-drawing issue? In-Reply-To: <49930A69.504@philpem.me.uk> References: <499144EE.3020002@mail.msu.edu> <499158D2.2020301@philpem.me.uk> <49924848.1080601@mail.msu.edu> <49930A69.504@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4993B0D7.9030504@mail.msu.edu> Philip Pemberton wrote: > > Divide-and-conquer's great, isn't it? :) > > Which leaves you -- as you quite rightly said -- the path between the > DACs and the deflection system, which is basically the filters. > >> Now to start debugging from here... (and maybe I should get these >> schematics to Al for archiving...) would dried up capacitors be a >> likely culprit? > > It'd be worth looking into, and the first thing I'd check. > > The schematic (Vol2, p.2-12) shows no electrolytics in that path other > than two pairs of 1uf decouplers on the opamps -- C853, C854, C871, > and C872. I'd ignore those for now, unless the power supply is > abnormally noisy. > > That part of the circuit is basically all 'dry' capacitors, i.e. no > electrolyte. You've got two 0u01 (10nf) Paktron "plastic" capacitors > per filter, and a 470pf ceramic. I suspect those are probably good, > they don't usually fail unless overvoltaged or otherwise abused in > some way. > > The parts manifest suggests that R965 (one of the 39meg resistors) is > a carbon-composition type. Just about anything will make these things > change value, but the main killers are age and (again) voltage stress. > They're a known cause of failure in old kit, and generally the value > will increase over time. That screws the time-constant of the filter, > lowering the cutoff frequency. > > My plan-of-action would be something along these lines: > 1) If you've got a DMM that goes as high as ~40 megohms, desolder one > leg of each of the 39M resistors and check them. If not, desolder the > existing resistors and replace them, but keep the old ones for now in > case their replacement causes problems. My multimeter doesn't go that high (I really need to get a good one one of these days.) I replaced these with two 20M's in series (figured it'd be close enough to at least see if it changes anything, and I can't find any place that actually stocks 39M resistors that aren't SMD...) No change in display behavior. > > 2) Also check R894 and R961 (100R 5% carbon-comp) and their mates in > the X filter. These supply power to the opamps. If these have gone > high in value, the opamp may have trouble sourcing current into the > output circuit. This will reduce the filter's cutoff frequency as well... Checked all these. They tested out fine. > > 3) If that didn't fix it, check the other resistors in the filters. > For the Y filter, that's R962, R963 and R964. Ditto for these. > > 4) If the opamps are socketed, swap them both out. You'll want a > Signetics N5558, which Google tells me crosses to the MC1458. Which is > still fairly common after all these years :) > This wouldn't be my first choice, though. Again, unless overstressed > these don't generally fail. Found some MC1458P's on Mouser, ordered... we'll see if this makes any difference. > > 5) Those plastic and ceramic capacitors are IMO the least likely to > fail (but tied with the opamp in the "chance of failure" stakes). Also ordered, why the heck not :). > > Let me know how you get on, this is starting to get interesting :) Thanks for the help! Josh > > Cheers, From john_keys at att.net Wed Feb 11 20:05:18 2009 From: john_keys at att.net (JKeys) Date: Wed, 11 Feb 2009 20:05:18 -0600 Subject: Great Find by the Wife Message-ID: <35754BDCD78A44D982B49E920D890348@jk1ff48932416d> Today my wife and daughter were at Goodwill and found a Atari Portfolio in the box with a working Portfolio in it, a 32MB memory card, smart parallel interface, and a file manager/tutorial card with all the manuals/papers for everything. Cost was only $1 plus tax. That got me a few other goodies too. Life is good. John K. From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Thu Feb 12 03:39:19 2009 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 09:39:19 +0000 Subject: Nicolet 660 In-Reply-To: <49933CC3.DBEB09F6@cs.ubc.ca> References: <79085.44996.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <67F015A1-DE71-4FB6-BFAF-C8617E7F89DB@neurotica.com> <49933CC3.DBEB09F6@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > The first commercial digital scope I'm aware of is the HP 5480 digital signal > analyser, from 1969 IIRC, uses core memory(!). (I have one that's languishing > inoperative for lack of a manual.) I too have one but mine came with manuals but was missing some interconnect cables the manuals are not yet in my calalog or scanned. > Just been to the Digital Lives Conference and I get the impression that there is NO effort by any official archive to collect manuals and such, test equipment seems to be a poorly covered area in the museum and archive world. Dave Caroline From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Feb 12 07:11:48 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 05:11:48 -0800 (PST) Subject: reversing case yellowing In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <479758.12526.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 2/11/09, David Griffith wrote: > Over at Atariage.com is a discussion about reversing the > yellowing of plastic. The procedure was designed by > chemical and plastics engineers. It works and doesn't > weaken the plastic. See > http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=138244&hl= > and http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=37808 for the > original source. This is really interesting. I wonder how well this would work on a Super Nintendo. Those also yellowed because the plastic wasn't always mixed properly - something to do with the flame retardant in the plastic. They yellow on any surface that is exposed to oxygen, and they get really brittle too. This process couldn't possibly strengthen the plastic, could it? It's worth a shot though. Very cool. -Ian From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Feb 12 08:06:31 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 09:06:31 -0500 Subject: Nicolet 660 In-Reply-To: References: <79085.44996.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <67F015A1-DE71-4FB6-BFAF-C8617E7F89DB@neurotica.com> <49933CC3.DBEB09F6@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > Just been to the Digital Lives Conference and I get the impression > that there is NO effort by any official archive to collect manuals and > such, test equipment seems to be a poorly covered area in the museum > and archive world. You are probably correct about any "official" effort, but there certainly are scores of large archives in the commercial world. -- Will From alexandre.laguejacques at gmail.com Thu Feb 12 08:51:43 2009 From: alexandre.laguejacques at gmail.com (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Alexandre_Lag=FCe=2DJacques?=) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 09:51:43 -0500 Subject: Problems installing Solaris 10 10/08 on Sun Ultra 30 Message-ID: <8336542f0902120651j36def708h95c6992c9d05857c@mail.gmail.com> Hello all, Please, no flames if you don't consider an Ultra 30 a "classic computer". :-) At 300 MHz, it's not terribly recent either. My system is a Sun Ultra 30, 300 MHz, 1.7 GB RAM and a 16 GB hard disk. Trying to install Solaris 10 10/08. The initial installation reboots after having copied Solaris to the hard disk and the machine freezes at the line "creating new dsa pair"... I've given it a few hours on several occasions with no success. Note that NetBSD works just fine on this system and that I encountered the same DSA key problem with Solaris 10 4/08. Also, I had had significant trouble installing NetBSD initially because of defective memory (the system would freeze at "boot cdrom" until I removed the offending items). Once the problem with the memory was resolved, the NetBSD installation worked perfectly and I presume that the remaining sticks are fine. Finally "boot -k" (after the Solaris installation has copied Solaris to the hard disk) yields no further details. - Alex From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Feb 12 09:59:00 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 10:59:00 -0500 Subject: Alignment disks, and the creation thereof In-Reply-To: <20090211165209.C39613@shell.lmi.net> References: <200902111827.24320.rtellason@verizon.net> <20090211165209.C39613@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200902121059.01194.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 11 February 2009 08:13:15 pm Fred Cisin wrote: > > > The problem comes if you want 2 offset tracks say 180 drgrees out of > > > phase (so one is at its innerpost point when the other is at the > > > outermost point). Aligning the media to the offset hub accurately to do > > > that would be 'interesting'. > > On Wed, 11 Feb 2009, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > Didn't the Lisa have floppy drives with heads on opposite sides of the > > spindle? :-) > > the "twiggy" drive. Apparently, not all 5.25" diskettes had thumbprints > on the media, so they added an extra access slot where your thumb would go > 600 Oerstedt media, 96TPI??? > > There are 8 possible ways to put a 5.25" diskette into the drive, without > damaging it. Did the Lisa have two sets of heads, or was the extra access > slot there just to double the odds that the position in which it was > inserted would work? It's been a while, but my recollection is that they had two heads and each had a pressure pad on the other side of the disk... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Feb 12 10:05:32 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 08:05:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: reversing case yellowing In-Reply-To: <479758.12526.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <479758.12526.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Feb 2009, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > --- On Wed, 2/11/09, David Griffith wrote: > >> Over at Atariage.com is a discussion about reversing the >> yellowing of plastic. The procedure was designed by >> chemical and plastics engineers. It works and doesn't >> weaken the plastic. See >> http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=138244&hl= >> and http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=37808 for the >> original source. > > This is really interesting. I wonder how well this would work on a Super > Nintendo. Those also yellowed because the plastic wasn't always mixed > properly - something to do with the flame retardant in the plastic. They > yellow on any surface that is exposed to oxygen, and they get really > brittle too. This process couldn't possibly strengthen the plastic, > could it? > > It's worth a shot though. Very cool. I asked about how it might work on the SNES's weird yellowing. Someone's working on that. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Feb 12 10:31:21 2009 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 10:31:21 -0600 Subject: Nicolet 660 In-Reply-To: <67F015A1-DE71-4FB6-BFAF-C8617E7F89DB@neurotica.com> References: <79085.44996.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <67F015A1-DE71-4FB6-BFAF-C8617E7F89DB@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20090212101508.0435ca08@mail.threedee.com> At 12:20 PM 2/11/2009, Dave McGuire wrote: >On Feb 11, 2009, at 12:27 PM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >>>A kind list member in my area has offered me a Nicolet 660 computer >> >>Hmm. Yeah, I've never heard of Nicolet either. Interesting find! > > Wow, never heard of them? Dating back to the 80s, they've made >(and still make, as far as I'm aware) some of the finest digitizing >oscilloscopes that money (a LOT of it) can buy. They also made quite >a bit of CAMAC equipment. Check the archives for this list, they've been discussed before. I think Sellam has one or two. The company itself is still around in Madison, WI, but I believe they've undergone various spin-offs and buy-outs or name changes. I think they're www.thermo.com now but were thermonicolet.com before that. I have a few friends who work there. I did a collecting run there once upon a time, but not for Nicolet equipment. I actually can't remember what I got. :-) Among other products, for a while they had an edge with specialized FFT hardware, until gigahertz processors could do as much as quickly. - John From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Feb 12 10:41:35 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 08:41:35 -0800 Subject: archiving (was Re: Nicolet 660) Message-ID: <4994513F.4010101@bitsavers.org> > I get the impression > that there is NO effort by any official archive to collect manuals and > such Stanford Library special collections have the Ampex and Apple archives, which contain manuals. The Charles Babbage Institute at the University of Minnesota as well as the institution I work for (The Computer History Museum) have extensive manual collections. Test equipment is out of the scope of CBI or CHM's collecting scope, though. > test equipment seems to be a poorly covered area in the museum > and archive world. But seems to be getting coverage from private collectors and some companies (like Agilent). If there were significant numbers of people from universities at this conference, you should have noticed that they have problems enough trying to fund the archiving of the contents that their own institutions, without actively collecting on the outside. This reminds me of a friend from years ago that was a fan of steam traction engines. No "official" institution collected documentation on them, but there were preservation organizations that kept their own archives. The problem, of course, is if the society is disbanded without a long-term recipient for the material collected. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu Feb 12 10:57:05 2009 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 08:57:05 -0800 Subject: Problems installing Solaris 10 10/08 on Sun Ultra 30 In-Reply-To: <8336542f0902120651j36def708h95c6992c9d05857c@mail.gmail.com> References: <8336542f0902120651j36def708h95c6992c9d05857c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200902120857.06112.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Thursday 12 February 2009, Alexandre Lag?e-Jacques wrote: > Hello all, > > Please, no flames if you don't consider an Ultra 30 a "classic > computer". :-) At 300 MHz, it's not terribly recent either. --snip-- You might want to try the "Suns-at-Home" list instead: Suns-at-Home at net-kitchen.com http://www.net-kitchen.com/mailman/listinfo/suns-at-home Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From slawmaster at gmail.com Thu Feb 12 10:57:17 2009 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 11:57:17 -0500 Subject: archiving (was Re: Nicolet 660) In-Reply-To: <4994513F.4010101@bitsavers.org> References: <4994513F.4010101@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <7d3530220902120857o2814d65dn6fdf5d863ce58ef@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 11:41 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> I get the impression >> that there is NO effort by any official archive to collect manuals and >> such > > Stanford Library special collections have the Ampex and Apple archives, > which contain manuals. > > The Charles Babbage Institute at the University of Minnesota as well as > the institution I work for (The Computer History Museum) have extensive > manual collections. Test equipment is out of the scope of CBI or CHM's > collecting scope, though. > >> test equipment seems to be a poorly covered area in the museum >> and archive world. > > But seems to be getting coverage from private collectors and some companies > (like Agilent). > > If there were significant numbers of people from universities at this > conference, > you should have noticed that they have problems enough trying to fund the > archiving > of the contents that their own institutions, without actively collecting on > the outside. > > This reminds me of a friend from years ago that was a fan of steam traction > engines. > No "official" institution collected documentation on them, but there were > preservation > organizations that kept their own archives. The problem, of course, is if > the society > is disbanded without a long-term recipient for the material collected. > > > On the archiving note, when/if I take possession of the Nicolet system, there is a lot of documentation and software that goes with it. I'd like to try and get as much of that as possible on Bitsavers; what is the usual process for doing that? I don't have a scanner handy and I really don't have the time to manually scan 1000+ pages of docs. The same goes for the PDP-11. John -- "I've tried programming Ruby on Rails, following TechCrunch in my RSS reader, and drinking absinthe. It doesn't work. I'm going back to C, Hunter S. Thompson, and cheap whiskey." -- Ted Dziuba From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Feb 12 11:45:54 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 09:45:54 -0800 Subject: archiving (was Re: Nicolet 660) Message-ID: <49946052.9020508@bitsavers.org> > I'd like to try and get as much of that as possible on Bitsavers; > what is the usual process for doing that? I don't have a scanner handy > and I really don't have the time to manually scan 1000+ pages of docs. Either loans in chunks to be scanned at CHM, or I have loaner scanner systems that can be sent there. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Feb 12 12:18:28 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 13:18:28 -0500 Subject: Problems installing Solaris 10 10/08 on Sun Ultra 30 In-Reply-To: <200902120857.06112.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <8336542f0902120651j36def708h95c6992c9d05857c@mail.gmail.com> <200902120857.06112.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 11:57 AM, Lyle Bickley wrote: > On Thursday 12 February 2009, Alexandre Lag?e-Jacques wrote: >> Hello all, >> >> Please, no flames if you don't consider an Ultra 30 a "classic >> computer"... > > You might want to try the "Suns-at-Home" list instead: > Suns-at-Home at net-kitchen.com > http://www.net-kitchen.com/mailman/listinfo/suns-at-home Let me recommend the Suns-at-Home list as well. It's low-traffic and really low-noise. There's quite a few of us on both lists. I myself don't have a U30 or I'd have chimed in. -ethan From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Feb 12 13:59:13 2009 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 11:59:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: freebies... Message-ID: For the cost of postage: TK50 Subsystem User's Guide. Pub #EK-OTK50-UG-004 LN03 Programmer's Reference Manual. Pub #EK-OLN03-RM-001 g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Feb 12 14:21:23 2009 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 12:21:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: another one for the cost of postage... Message-ID: Soft Sector magazine, Sept 1986. This mag is dedicated to the Sanyo Personal Computer. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Feb 12 14:43:27 2009 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 12:43:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: and yet another... Message-ID: (slowly working through some boxes...) DEC VT102 Video Terminal Users Guide. Pub #EK-VT102-UG-003 219 pages. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Feb 12 13:47:25 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 14:47:25 -0500 Subject: Problems installing Solaris 10 10/08 on Sun Ultra 30 In-Reply-To: <8336542f0902120651j36def708h95c6992c9d05857c@mail.gmail.com> References: <8336542f0902120651j36def708h95c6992c9d05857c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200902121447.25398.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 12 February 2009, Alexandre Lag?e-Jacques wrote: > Please, no flames if you don't consider an Ultra 30 a "classic > computer". :-) At 300 MHz, it's not terribly recent either. FWIW, you might try the rescue list, there's plenty of Sun/Solaris people over there (though I try to avoid SunOS 5 and later like the plague :). http://www.sunhelp.org/mailman/listinfo/rescue Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Feb 12 13:47:54 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 14:47:54 -0500 Subject: reversing case yellowing In-Reply-To: <1123EFA991D74EE28CF634F3F1AFED67@game> References: <4992DC0D.9936.61CA1E6@cclist.sydex.com> <1123EFA991D74EE28CF634F3F1AFED67@game> Message-ID: <200902121447.54963.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 11 February 2009, Teo Zenios wrote: > Well you just know somebody will get 30% industrial strength peroxide > somewhere (work?). I would not want to get 6-9% in my eye anyway. How about eBay? It seems that there's also a fair number of websites that sell it, that I found using Google's product search. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Feb 12 13:49:17 2009 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 13:49:17 -0600 Subject: 8088 vs. 80c88 In-Reply-To: <49926C6D.6090602@oldskool.org> References: <49926C6D.6090602@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <49947D3D.5020008@oldskool.org> Jim Leonard wrote: > So a simple routine to try to identify the 8088 vs. the 80c88 > would look something like: > > mov cx,2 ; test if following instruction will be > ; repeated twice. > db 0F3h,26h,0ACh ; rep es: lodsb > jcxz Yes ; intel non-CMOS chips do not care of rep > jmp Nope ; before segment prefix override, NEC and > ; CMOS-tech ones does. It turns out my information is bad. The bug only asserts itself when an interrupt occurs during the REP. Buggy CPUs don't continue; later ones do. So to fix my detection code, I will increase the count in cx to something much longer, probably f000. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net Thu Feb 12 13:58:43 2009 From: woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net (Dave Woyciesjes) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 14:58:43 -0500 Subject: =?windows-1252?q?Bletchley_Park_fires_up_Big_Green-Eyed_Monster_?= =?windows-1252?q?=95_The_Register?= Message-ID: <49947F73.1020604@sbcglobal.net> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/02/12/iris/ -- --- Dave Woyciesjes --- ICQ# 905818 --- AIM - woyciesjes --- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/ --- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/ "From there to here, From here to there, Funny things are everywhere." --- Dr. Seuss From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Feb 12 14:02:03 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 12:02:03 -0800 (PST) Subject: reversing case yellowing In-Reply-To: <200902121447.54963.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <4992DC0D.9936.61CA1E6@cclist.sydex.com> <1123EFA991D74EE28CF634F3F1AFED67@game> <200902121447.54963.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 12 Feb 2009, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Wednesday 11 February 2009, Teo Zenios wrote: >> Well you just know somebody will get 30% industrial strength peroxide >> somewhere (work?). I would not want to get 6-9% in my eye anyway. > > How about eBay? It seems that there's also a fair number of websites > that sell it, that I found using Google's product search. It's readily available from beauty-supply shops. You don't need 30%. 20% or so is good enough. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Feb 12 14:11:07 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 15:11:07 -0500 Subject: =?windows-1252?q?Re=3A_Bletchley_Park_fires_up_Big_Green-Eyed_Mo?= =?windows-1252?q?nster_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <49947F73.1020604@sbcglobal.net> References: <49947F73.1020604@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 2:58 PM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/02/12/iris/ Jim Beacon, is this one of the things you showed me when I visited you at work in 2005? -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 12 14:01:56 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 20:01:56 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Need Fuji M2312 info In-Reply-To: <2FA712BD-E276-46C4-8255-8930950A108B@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Feb 11, 9 05:25:31 pm Message-ID: > > OK, here's a paraphrase of the information I have from the manual > > for the > > 2311/2312 drives > ... > > Thank you, Tony! If you need any more info, I have the full manual. It's over 1" thick, and athough the repair flowchartts suggest board-swapping, there is a section of scheamtics, PCB layouts and some information on the ASICs. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Feb 12 14:04:31 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 20:04:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Alignment disks, and the creation thereof In-Reply-To: <200902111827.24320.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Feb 11, 9 06:27:24 pm Message-ID: > > > The problem comes if you want 2 offset tracks say 180 drgrees out of phase > > (so one is at its innerpost point when the other is at the outermost point). > > Aligning the media to the offset hub accurately to do that would > > be 'interesting'. > > Didn't the Lisa have floppy drives with heads on opposite sides of the > spindle? :-) > YEs, but that wouldn't help. What you need to vary is the angular position between the media and the offset spindle. Having a second head 180 degrees from the normal one has the same effect as rotating the spindle _and media toghether_ throuhg 180 degrees. -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Feb 12 14:18:41 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 12:18:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Great Find by the Wife In-Reply-To: <35754BDCD78A44D982B49E920D890348@jk1ff48932416d> References: <35754BDCD78A44D982B49E920D890348@jk1ff48932416d> Message-ID: <20090212121804.E86486@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 11 Feb 2009, JKeys wrote: > Today my wife and daughter were at Goodwill and found a Atari Portfolio Does she have a sister? From pontus at update.uu.se Thu Feb 12 14:33:08 2009 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 21:33:08 +0100 Subject: =?windows-1252?q?Re=3A_Bletchley_Park_fires_up_Big_Green-Eyed_Mo?= =?windows-1252?q?nster_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <49947F73.1020604@sbcglobal.net> References: <49947F73.1020604@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <49948784.2070101@update.uu.se> Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/02/12/iris/ Are those 11/44s ? /P From pontus at update.uu.se Thu Feb 12 14:43:20 2009 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 21:43:20 +0100 Subject: reversing case yellowing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <499489E8.6030401@update.uu.se> David Griffith wrote: > > Over at Atariage.com is a discussion about reversing the yellowing of > plastic. The procedure was designed by chemical and plastics > engineers. It works and doesn't weaken the plastic. See > http://www.atariage.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=138244&hl= and > http://eab.abime.net/showthread.php?t=37808 for the original source. > > There are two long (ongoing) threads about it at the VC-forums: http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?t=11877 http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?t=12566 The first one is rather long (and refers to the links in the original post), but both have pictures that shows the results. /P From ak6dn at mindspring.com Thu Feb 12 14:45:50 2009 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 12:45:50 -0800 Subject: =?windows-1252?q?Re=3A_Bletchley_Park_fires_up_Big_Green-Eyed_Mo?= =?windows-1252?q?nster_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <49948784.2070101@update.uu.se> References: <49947F73.1020604@sbcglobal.net> <49948784.2070101@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <49948A7E.5070205@mindspring.com> Pontus wrote: > Dave Woyciesjes wrote: > >> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/02/12/iris/ >> > > Are those 11/44s ? > > /P > > Nope, looks more like an 11/84 or 94: http://www.bitsavers.org/simh.trailing-edge.com/photos/pdp11_94.jpg From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Feb 12 16:18:32 2009 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 14:18:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Update... Message-ID: The VT102 manual and Sanyo magazine have been spoken for. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From IanK at vulcan.com Thu Feb 12 15:20:48 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 13:20:48 -0800 Subject: TEK 4107A and TEK 4209 color raster graphic terminals free for pickup in Seattle area (eastside) In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90902071417g72e1b3ccka4c90ea63104f305@mail.gmail.com> References: <1e1fc3e90902071417g72e1b3ccka4c90ea63104f305@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Now *I* have them - thanks, Glen! Does anyone out there have user manuals? All that I've found on the web is programming manuals (although the 4105 user manual was available, which is helpful). Thanks -- Ian -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Glen Slick Sent: Saturday, February 07, 2009 2:18 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: TEK 4107A and TEK 4209 color raster graphic terminals free for pickup in Seattle area (eastside) As the title says, I have a Tektronix 4107A and a Tektronix 4209 color raster graphics terminal which are free for pickup in Seattle area (eastside). These are vintage 1987 and 1988 from the (c) dates on the terminal firmware. Pictures: http://picasaweb.google.com/glen.slick/Tektronix4107A http://picasaweb.google.com/glen.slick/Tektronix4209 Reply offlist if you are interested. -Glen From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Feb 12 16:24:23 2009 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 14:24:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: mail blocked Message-ID: To Bill Maddox: Your ISP is using an outdated DNSBL that is blocking all ip addresses (see http://dnsbl.invaluement.com/tqmcube/) Please send me your mailing address and I'll get the guide out to you asap. Just paypal me the amount shown on the postage meter sticker when it arrives. tnx. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Thu Feb 12 16:28:47 2009 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 14:28:47 -0800 Subject: Great Find by the Wife References: <35754BDCD78A44D982B49E920D890348@jk1ff48932416d> <20090212121804.E86486@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <001301c98d61$461eaf50$0201a8c0@hal9000> Subject: Re: Great Find by the Wife > On Wed, 11 Feb 2009, JKeys wrote: > > Today my wife and daughter were at Goodwill and found a Atari Portfolio > > Does she have a sister? The wife or the daughter ? / sac From fsmith at ladylinux.com Thu Feb 12 16:59:09 2009 From: fsmith at ladylinux.com (Francesca C. Smith) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 17:59:09 -0500 Subject: Two RK05J's + PDP11/34 Offered Message-ID: <200902121759.10366.fsmith@ladylinux.com> Hi, These are located Near Toronto Canada and will preferably be picked up. Any shipping will have to be arraigned by the buyer. I purchased these from a gentleman off E-Pay a few years back and never came around to getting shipping to the USA sorted. One RK05 is missing the face plate but powers up fine and the other is in great shape and comes ready when a DECpack is installed. The 11/34 powers up fine and seems to be in good shape. Really I would rather sell these to someone here rather than go the E-Pay route. I paid some decent cash for them and would just like to get as much of that back as possible. Trade offers for vintage audio equipment will be considered. Inquire off list please. Pictures http://ladylinux.com/decstuff/1134/1134-1.JPG http://ladylinux.com/decstuff/1134/1134-2.JPG http://ladylinux.com/decstuff/1134/1134-3.JPG http://ladylinux.com/decstuff/1134/1134-4.JPG http://ladylinux.com/decstuff/rk05/RK05-1.JPG http://ladylinux.com/decstuff/rk05/RK05-2.JPG http://ladylinux.com/decstuff/rk05/RK05-3.JPG http://ladylinux.com/decstuff/rk05/RK05-4.JPG http://ladylinux.com/decstuff/rk05/RK05-5.JPG -- Kindest Regards, "No Problems Only Solutions" L.B. Network Consultants LLC. Baltimore, Maryland From lynchaj at yahoo.com Thu Feb 12 17:32:54 2009 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 18:32:54 -0500 Subject: test message Message-ID: <87113DAB4DC44FFA85C6EAA5F64027BA@andrewdesktop> Hi, my posts to the CCTALK mailing list do not seem to be getting through. This is a test message. Please disregard. Thank you! Andrew Lynch From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Feb 12 18:24:02 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 00:24:02 +0000 Subject: Advice for Tek 4051 vector-drawing issue? In-Reply-To: <4993B0D7.9030504@mail.msu.edu> References: <499144EE.3020002@mail.msu.edu> <499158D2.2020301@philpem.me.uk> <49924848.1080601@mail.msu.edu> <49930A69.504@philpem.me.uk> <4993B0D7.9030504@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4994BDA2.5020701@philpem.me.uk> Josh Dersch wrote: > My multimeter doesn't go that high (I really need to get a good one one > of these days.) My Fluke 25 won't go that high either -- max range on that is 32 megohms. I've got a Solartron 7150plus bench DMM that can read down to one milliohm in the 2K-ohm range (6.5 digits with averaging enabled), but still limits at 20M-ohms max. > I replaced these with two 20M's in series (figured it'd > be close enough to at least see if it changes anything, and I can't find > any place that actually stocks 39M resistors that aren't SMD...) No > change in display behavior. The spec in the parts list was 1%. 1% of 39M is 390k-ohms either way... 40M is well out of spec. I'd have used a 20M, a 10M, an 2.2M and a 6.8M in series which gets you 39M exactly, and if you use 1% resistors you should be within 1% of the final value (assuming my math is accurate, which it probably isn't). Note that all of those are E12 values, i.e. standard resistor values. > Found some MC1458P's on Mouser, ordered... we'll see if this makes any > difference. Well, based on what you've done, that leaves the capacitors and the opamps (as you've already said). There is a note on page 5-26 of volume 1 relating to the test fixture and the vector display -- specifically: Don't worry if both directions of vector drawing do not close for the deflection magnitude may be well out of the linear range of display deflection parameters. I've just been (re-)reading Jed Margolin's "Secret Life of Vector Generators" article (). There's a bit in this article about capacitors in analog vector generators... and how picky the integrators in AVGs tend to be..... I'm starting to wonder if some normally-irrelevant parameter of those poly caps has shifted and fragged the vector generator. Catch is, because both channels are intended to be matched (there's a bit about that in the theory of operation for the vector generator in Vol 1, IIRC) you might have to replace the same parts in both channels to get everything to match up... > Thanks for the help! No problem. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Feb 12 14:38:02 2009 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 12:38:02 -0800 Subject: =?windows-1252?q?Re=3A_Bletchley_Park_fires_up_Big_Green-Eyed_Mo?= =?windows-1252?q?nster_=95_The_Register?= In-Reply-To: <49948784.2070101@update.uu.se> References: <49947F73.1020604@sbcglobal.net> <49948784.2070101@update.uu.se> Message-ID: <4CAEE50D-E33B-4113-9EF5-A7BE5A304D38@shiresoft.com> On Feb 12, 2009, at 12:33 PM, Pontus wrote: > Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/02/12/iris/ > > Are those 11/44s ? Could be 11/84's as well. Hard to tell from that picture. TTFN - Guy From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Feb 12 21:02:52 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 22:02:52 -0500 Subject: Need Fuji M2312 info In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Feb 12, 2009, at 3:01 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> OK, here's a paraphrase of the information I have from the manual >>> for the >>> 2311/2312 drives >> ... >> >> Thank you, Tony! > > If you need any more info, I have the full manual. It's over 1" thick, > and athough the repair flowchartts suggest board-swapping, there is a > section of scheamtics, PCB layouts and some information on the ASICs. Excellent, thanks! Thanks to you and Tim Thompson, I've gotten one of my M2312s working fine on an Emulex QD33 in a PDP-11/53. I have four drives...Two are dead, the third works but has TONS of errors, and the fourth is perfect...zero bad sectors! Next I'll work on mounting it in the PDP-11/70 rack and getting it cabled up to the SC72. Can you give me a rundown of the four status LEDs? I believe they indicate error codes. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Thu Feb 12 21:18:19 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 19:18:19 -0800 Subject: Advice for Tek 4051 vector-drawing issue? In-Reply-To: <4994BDA2.5020701@philpem.me.uk> References: <499144EE.3020002@mail.msu.edu> <499158D2.2020301@philpem.me.uk> <49924848.1080601@mail.msu.edu> <49930A69.504@philpem.me.uk> <4993B0D7.9030504@mail.msu.edu> <4994BDA2.5020701@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <4994E67B.6030308@mail.msu.edu> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Josh Dersch wrote: >> My multimeter doesn't go that high (I really need to get a good one >> one of these days.) > > My Fluke 25 won't go that high either -- max range on that is 32 > megohms. I've got a Solartron 7150plus bench DMM that can read down to > one milliohm in the 2K-ohm range (6.5 digits with averaging enabled), > but still limits at 20M-ohms max. > > > I replaced these with two 20M's in series (figured it'd >> be close enough to at least see if it changes anything, and I can't >> find any place that actually stocks 39M resistors that aren't >> SMD...) No change in display behavior. > > The spec in the parts list was 1%. 1% of 39M is 390k-ohms either > way... 40M is well out of spec. > > I'd have used a 20M, a 10M, an 2.2M and a 6.8M in series which gets > you 39M exactly, and if you use 1% resistors you should be within 1% > of the final value (assuming my math is accurate, which it probably > isn't). Note that all of those are E12 values, i.e. standard resistor > values. Ah, whoops -- thought it was 5% like the others, but you're right. Well, nothing blew up... > >> Found some MC1458P's on Mouser, ordered... we'll see if this makes >> any difference. > > Well, based on what you've done, that leaves the capacitors and the > opamps (as you've already said). > > There is a note on page 5-26 of volume 1 relating to the test fixture > and the vector display -- specifically: > Don't worry if both directions of vector drawing do not close for > the deflection magnitude may be well out of the linear range of > display deflection parameters. > > I've just been (re-)reading Jed Margolin's "Secret Life of Vector > Generators" article (). There's > a bit in this article about capacitors in analog vector generators... > and how picky the integrators in AVGs tend to be..... > > I'm starting to wonder if some normally-irrelevant parameter of those > poly caps has shifted and fragged the vector generator. > > Catch is, because both channels are intended to be matched (there's a > bit about that in the theory of operation for the vector generator in > Vol 1, IIRC) you might have to replace the same parts in both channels > to get everything to match up... Well, it's not the op-amps: I discovered last night (of course, after ordering the parts...) that the tape controller board has 3 MC1458's on it, so I swapped a pair of them with the CPU board. No change, and the tape drive still works fine, so I think we can rule those out. I've ordered enough replacement caps to replace them in both the X/Y channels so we'll see what happens once the parts arrive. Thanks again, Josh > >> Thanks for the help! > > No problem. > From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Feb 12 21:21:28 2009 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 21:21:28 -0600 Subject: Free: Fujitsu HALStation 300 Message-ID: <51ea77730902121921k1745c51fw981f048cd38d85d@mail.gmail.com> 've got two of these systems. One is working, one may have a bad PSU. Very cool-looking clone of the Sparc in a large tower/deskside case. Yours to pick up in the Chicago area (60074.) Shipping would be tough; these are heavy. I've also got a bunch goodies including the special Solaris distro for Fujitsu and some manuals. Come 'n' get 'em! -- silent700.blogspot.com Retrocomputing and collecting in the Chicago area: http://chiclassiccomp.org From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Feb 12 21:51:03 2009 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 19:51:03 -0800 Subject: TEK 4107A and TEK 4209 color raster graphic terminals free for pickup in Seattle area (eastside) In-Reply-To: References: <1e1fc3e90902071417g72e1b3ccka4c90ea63104f305@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90902121951t4ccb6c38gbc23484b6cb1cbe8@mail.gmail.com> Did you find a full copy of the Programmers Reference Manual online? This site has just the contents and index scanned of the 4106/4107/4109/CX Programmers Reference Manual, part # 070-4893-01, and the Operators Manual, part # 070-4981-02 http://aceware.iinet.net.au/acms/BookDetail.asp?lngBookId=1,338& http://aceware.iinet.net.au/acms/BookDetail.asp?lngBookId=1,335& If you search www.manualsplus.com for 4107 they have various physical manuals available for sale if you can't find what you are looking for online. -Glen On Thu, Feb 12, 2009 at 1:20 PM, Ian King wrote: > Now *I* have them - thanks, Glen! > > Does anyone out there have user manuals? All that I've found on the web is programming manuals (although the 4105 user manual was available, which is helpful). Thanks -- Ian > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Feb 12 22:43:37 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 20:43:37 -0800 Subject: Alignment disks, and the creation thereof In-Reply-To: References: <200902111827.24320.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Feb 11, 9 06:27:24 pm Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 20:04:31 +0000 > Subject: Re: Alignment disks, and the creation thereof > >> >>> The problem comes if you want 2 offset tracks say 180 drgrees out of phase >>> (so one is at its innerpost point when the other is at the outermost point). >>> Aligning the media to the offset hub accurately to do that would >>> be 'interesting'. >> >> Didn't the Lisa have floppy drives with heads on opposite sides of the >> spindle? :-) >> > > YEs, but that wouldn't help. What you need to vary is the angular > position between the media and the offset spindle. Having a second head > 180 degrees from the normal one has the same effect as rotating the > spindle _and media toghether_ throuhg 180 degrees. > > -tony Hi Might it be easier to just turn the hub down by half a track. When you mount the disk just make sure it is touching the hub. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync. http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t1_allup_howitworks_022009 From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Feb 13 00:47:22 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 22:47:22 -0800 Subject: Nicolet 660 References: <79085.44996.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <67F015A1-DE71-4FB6-BFAF-C8617E7F89DB@neurotica.com> <49933CC3.DBEB09F6@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <49951779.FCFB6091@cs.ubc.ca> Dave Caroline wrote: > > > The first commercial digital scope I'm aware of is the HP 5480 digital signal > > analyser, from 1969 IIRC, uses core memory(!). (I have one that's languishing > > inoperative for lack of a manual.) > > I too have one but mine came with manuals but was missing some > interconnect cables the manuals are not yet in my calalog or scanned. If you're ever inspired to scan the manuals (or perhaps the pertinent bits like the schematic) I would be interested of course, but I imagine it's a fair volume in total. The unit here has some intermittent it seems, it will display a live trace IIRC, but the storage and statistical algorithms don't seem to work. I did see it average a noisy sine wave (finger on input) at one point but it doesn't seem to do that anymore. I reverse engineered the DACs and core memory circuitry, but there's a hundred or two SSI ICs and laced wire bundles remaining that I haven't worked up the enthusiasm to RE. Nice to hear there are a couple others of these units out there still. > Just been to the Digital Lives Conference and I get the impression > that there is NO effort by any official archive to collect manuals and > such, test equipment seems to be a poorly covered area in the museum > and archive world. It's an area of interest to so few people, one has to be well inside the technical arena as well as have an interest in the history, for such stuff to hold any interest. I wonder what will happen to some of the obscure boat anchors I have here when I have to divest. From axelsson at acc.umu.se Thu Feb 12 08:26:08 2009 From: axelsson at acc.umu.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Axelsson?=) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 15:26:08 +0100 Subject: reversing case yellowing In-Reply-To: <4BC23C2D2EF542988F01DC65589B1891@game> References: <6dbe3c380902111238h3956e3a5q485baeb6d4969d37@mail.gmail.com> <4BC23C2D2EF542988F01DC65589B1891@game> Message-ID: <49943180.4070804@acc.umu.se> Teo Zenios wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Lanning" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Wednesday, February 11, 2009 3:38 PM > Subject: Re: reversing case yellowing > > >> There was a lot of talk about this on the amiga forums. Apparently it >> works great. The main problem seems to be getting a >> concentrated-enough batch of hydrogen peroxide, though it's not a big >> deal. The other thing is that the ultra-violet light is a key >> ingredient. From what I understand, the ultra-violet light >> destabilizes the oxygen bond so the peroxide can pick it up. >> >> brian >> > > Peroxide is just H2O2 (water being H2O). You have an unstable molecule > with an extra Oxygen compared to water (which is stable). Any heat, > major vibration, or even UV light will decompose peroxide into Water > and Free Oxygen, the Oxygen combines with whatever discolors the > plastic and then goes into solution. Heat isn't used because people > are worried about plastic warping I guess (or because the reaction is > too fast). If you look on the English Amiga Board (EAB) they have a > more detailed recipe including some other chemicals added to speed > things up. Contact with metal also decomposes hydrogen peroxide (as > the Russians found out with leaky torpedoes on the Kursk submarine a > while back), but adding free oxygen to mild steel will just rust the > hell out of it in a hurry (so if you have plastic+ mild steel parts > you will have issues). I don't know if this is going to work but adding lye (sodium hydroxide) to raise the Ph in the solution might help passivating the iron surface enough to protect it against oxidation. Archaeologists uses this trick when treating iron against oxidation when they conserve their findings. > The problems I have seen with this method is some pieces do not whiten > the same and you have blotches, also some mold marks (swirling caused > when the hot plastic is injected into the mold) show up where they > were not noticable before. > > I generaly just wash/scrub yellowed parts with dishwashing detergent > with "oxy" on the label, the scrubbing releases some oxygen from the > soap and you slightly whiten whatever you are cleaning (and remove > dirt as well). It will not make anything yellowed look new, but I just > want the stuff clean and a shade whiter. > > Anything that had yellowed is mostly from a bad mix of UV stabilizer > in the plastic (to keep the plastic from turning into dust after years > of exposure to sunlight), and the odds it will yellow again down the > road are probably good (you just cleaned up the surface and not deep > into the plastic). So you will need a coating of UV protectand to keep > anything you cleaned looking good. > > P.S. If you use concentrated peroxide much above the 3% solution you > use on cuts make sure you have a face shield, chemical gloves, and > some kind of chemical apron unless you want to go blind, ruin your > clothes, and mess up your skin for a while. > I'll second that suggestion. Safety first! /G?ran From dj.taylor4 at verizon.net Thu Feb 12 19:20:17 2009 From: dj.taylor4 at verizon.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2009 20:20:17 -0500 Subject: Nicolet 660 In-Reply-To: References: <79085.44996.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <49931C11.305@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20090212201513.0260f0e8@verizon.net> Fascinating, in the early 80's I ran a FTIR (Fourier Transform Infrared) spectrometer that was attached to a Nicolet 1080. The system had a Diablo 42 disk I seem to remember. You would have to wait for the thing to spin up before booting. It would digitize the FTIR signal and perform the required FFT's to obtain the infrared spectrum. It had some kind of Nicolet software that would do the spectral processing. It also had a Fortran compiler which I used to do some specialized processing. If you got a picture it sure would bring back old memories. Doug At 09:19 PM 2/11/2009, you wrote: >Hi > I have a Nicolet 1080 computer. It has 20 bits. >They also made a 1280 as well. The 1080 was used >mostly to do FFT's in a chemical MR machine. It >was used for other analog data logging as well. >There are only 4 of the 1080 machines that I know >of that are still in existance. > Three are in my general area of the world one in the >UK. >Dwight > >_________________________________________________________________ >Windows Live?: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect. >http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_allup_explore_022009 From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri Feb 13 02:30:08 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon J. C. Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 08:30:08 +0000 Subject: Advice for Tek 4051 vector-drawing issue? In-Reply-To: <4994BDA2.5020701@philpem.me.uk> References: <499144EE.3020002@mail.msu.edu> <499158D2.2020301@philpem.me.uk> <49924848.1080601@mail.msu.edu> <49930A69.504@philpem.me.uk> <4993B0D7.9030504@mail.msu.edu> <4994BDA2.5020701@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <1234513808.31410.10.camel@kusanagi> On Fri, 2009-02-13 at 00:24 +0000, Philip Pemberton wrote: > The spec in the parts list was 1%. 1% of 39M is 390k-ohms either way... 40M is > well out of spec. Hmm. I'd say it was a *little* out of spec, particularly when you consider that the 39M resistor may well have headed off into 100M+ territory with age. Gordon From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Feb 13 08:21:55 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 06:21:55 -0800 Subject: Nicolet 660 Message-ID: <49958203.8090404@bitsavers.org> > test equipment seems to be a poorly covered area in the museum > and archive world. I was thinking about this some more last night, and there is little activity preserving the software for test equipment. Brokers keep the manuals and the hardware, but rarely keep the software to make it work. For example, the Biomation CLAS 9000 logic analyzer had no built in user interface; it was a SCSI periperial connected to a Macintosh. They didn't document the protocol to talk to it, so it is a rather large boat anchor without a Mac and the software to talk to it. Then, there are all the PC instruments that had custom cards and software to talk to their widget. The parts are separated, and no one saves the card inside the PC or the software to make it work. From lproven at gmail.com Fri Feb 13 08:39:45 2009 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 14:39:45 +0000 Subject: Novell 68K file server In-Reply-To: <20090116.211346.1739.0@webmail10.vgs.untd.com> References: <20090116.211346.1739.0@webmail10.vgs.untd.com> Message-ID: <575131af0902130639u38d4a9bag749fb651dde99652@mail.gmail.com> 2009/1/17 jeff.kaneko at juno.com : > > > -- "james" wrote: >>> Here are some pics of a Novell file server circa 1987. >>> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/novell/68k_file_server >>> >>> Was wondering if anyone had documentation or software for >>> this. I had some of the external dual drive scsi boxes for >>> these at one point. >> >> >>This reminds me of a similar oddity I used to support years >>ago. 3Com made a server, and an OS called 3+ Open. As I >>recall, it was an OS/2 - LAN Manager derivative. > > Ah yes, the era of the 3Server is forever seared into my > brain; my first *real* job in the computer business involved > the care and feeding of several generations of these beasties. > > The Original 3Server (about the same vintage as the Novell > unit pictured earlier) used an 80188 and a heavily modified > version of MS-DOS. It used an early SCSI implementation, > which was closer to SASI, to attach MFM disks and QIC tapes > via Adaptec bridge boards. > > Because there were neither video nor ISA bus, there was more > room for contiguous DOS memory; something over 700k, which > pertty cool at the time. They originally were equipped with > 30MB drives, but then the 3Server70 had an 80Mb (unformatted) > unit by Vertex. > > These early boxes had the (optional) QIC tape in an external > box; the 3Server3 introduced in 1986 (IIRC) had disk and tape > in one box; in addition the 3Server3 could be interfaced with > appletalk, and also sported the then-new LIM memory used to > speed up the operating system. > > These 80188 systems all used either 3+Share or EtherSeries > NOS's for basic drive sharing. IN addition, 3+Mail, 3+Route > (for routing e-mail between sites), 3+Backup and other network > applications were supported under the 3+Share NOS (in <1Mb > RAM). > > These were followed by the 3S400 & 3S500 machines, which are > not interesing as they are little more than stock ISA 80386 > machines running at 16MHz. These guys could run 3+Share, or > 3+Open (a.k.a. OS/2 LanMan as pointed out above). ISTR that > they added TCP/IP late in that products life. > > Then Novell took over the world and all of the above 'stuff' > died in obscurity. > > It was at this point where I learned in my life that I had a > knack for picking losers. > > I need a stiff drink now . . . . Ohh yes. In my first job, doing networks support in 1988, I supported a number of 3Server3s. I got to know 3+Share alarmingly well, given that I never saw a manual. We also ran 3+Share on a number of generic IBM PS/2 servers - there was a version of it for generic hardware too. On a PS/2 Model 60, it ran in 1MB RAM and didn't use the top 384K - so everything happened in 640K. I found a program to run on a 286 to map extended memory as LIM EMS and got a gratifyingly large performance boost - until I discovered that 3Com's DOS-multitasking cleverness stomped on the XMS-EMS app and had corrupted the disk. I recovered 5000 trashed files from a disk dump, by hand. What a lovely job that was. And about 4y later, when I moved to London and got a job with a high-street VAR on Tottenham Court Road, my new boss was overjoyed to discover that I knew 3Servers and 3+Share and immediately handed me Mentorn Films (think Challenge Anneka and the like) as my sole responsibility - the company's only one with this bizarre old hardware. They ran a LAN of 286s and 386SXs running runtime Windows 2 with Excel as their accounts department LAN. These machines never had mice, so not only did everyone know how to use Excel solely by keyboard control, all the machines had the Excel cross cursor burned into the middle of the monitor - there was no way to move it and Windows 2 was too dumb to hide it if a mouse was not connected. I wrote the original Wikipedia article on the 3Servers, IIRC. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3Server Contributions welcome! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Fri Feb 13 08:43:48 2009 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 14:43:48 +0000 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: <5f7d1b0e0901131056o6eed12f7w4a432fec6affdcf1@mail.gmail.com> References: <200901131206.11848.rtellason@verizon.net> <496CDE95.4070808@jetnet.ab.ca> <496CE0F2.2090709@jetnet.ab.ca> <5f7d1b0e0901131056o6eed12f7w4a432fec6affdcf1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0902130643p5ed3453awa6d6c615d1d37885@mail.gmail.com> 2009/1/13 Jason McBrien : > Smalltalk begat Squeak, which is what the Sugar interface is based on in > those new XO laptops. I am a frayed knot. Sugar is written in Python running on Linux. However, the eToys program on OLPC XO-1s is indeed based on Squeak. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Fri Feb 13 08:44:51 2009 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 14:44:51 +0000 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: References: <496CE3F8.4020401@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <575131af0902130644r120fee3em5b3f54760f65b599@mail.gmail.com> 2009/1/13 Richard : > > In article <496CE3F8.4020401 at oldskool.org>, > Jim Leonard writes: > >> Richard wrote: >> >> Funny, I used to think of Byte as a hardware mag... >> >> >> >> It was when they drifted away from that I started to lose interest. >> > >> > More hardware discussion happens on the net nowadays than ever >> > happened in BYTE magazine, even in its heyday. >> >> But that's because the viewship of online people has exceeded the >> readership of offline people. Twenty years ago, you could not say that, >> as the situation was reversed. > > And the sun rises in the east. Sorry, but what you just said feels > like a tautological statement to me. > > Yeah, 20 years ago there weren't as many people online. But even 20 > years ago (that's 1989), BYTE was already dead (last issue July '98) > and DDJ was already declining. Er, pardon? 1989 <> 1998. Transposition error here, methinks? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Feb 13 08:48:57 2009 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt Vendel - Atarimuseum) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 09:48:57 -0500 Subject: Novell 68K file server In-Reply-To: <575131af0902130639u38d4a9bag749fb651dde99652@mail.gmail.com> References: <20090116.211346.1739.0@webmail10.vgs.untd.com> <575131af0902130639u38d4a9bag749fb651dde99652@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49958859.7050902@atarimuseum.com> Ah yes, the 3com 3+ Open servers, I loved those beasties, I used to work on them at American Express back around 89-90, the server loaded the OS off of a tape, no disk drive on the box as I recall. What I loved best about it were the command syntax, it was so easy to work with that network OS and setup services and clients, I was disappointed when the plug was pulled on it. I remembering have to change the power supply on a Novell 68000 server box, they came in XT type cases, the motherboards were impressive looking and I've always wanted to find and acquire a Novell 68K box and finding Novell SNET/NDS to run on it. Curt Liam Proven wrote: > 2009/1/17 jeff.kaneko at juno.com : > >> -- "james" wrote: >> >>>> Here are some pics of a Novell file server circa 1987. >>>> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/novell/68k_file_server >>>> >>>> Was wondering if anyone had documentation or software for >>>> this. I had some of the external dual drive scsi boxes for >>>> these at one point. >>>> >>> This reminds me of a similar oddity I used to support years >>> ago. 3Com made a server, and an OS called 3+ Open. As I >>> recall, it was an OS/2 - LAN Manager derivative. >>> >> Ah yes, the era of the 3Server is forever seared into my >> brain; my first *real* job in the computer business involved >> the care and feeding of several generations of these beasties. >> >> The Original 3Server (about the same vintage as the Novell >> unit pictured earlier) used an 80188 and a heavily modified >> version of MS-DOS. It used an early SCSI implementation, >> which was closer to SASI, to attach MFM disks and QIC tapes >> via Adaptec bridge boards. >> >> Because there were neither video nor ISA bus, there was more >> room for contiguous DOS memory; something over 700k, which >> pertty cool at the time. They originally were equipped with >> 30MB drives, but then the 3Server70 had an 80Mb (unformatted) >> unit by Vertex. >> >> These early boxes had the (optional) QIC tape in an external >> box; the 3Server3 introduced in 1986 (IIRC) had disk and tape >> in one box; in addition the 3Server3 could be interfaced with >> appletalk, and also sported the then-new LIM memory used to >> speed up the operating system. >> >> These 80188 systems all used either 3+Share or EtherSeries >> NOS's for basic drive sharing. IN addition, 3+Mail, 3+Route >> (for routing e-mail between sites), 3+Backup and other network >> applications were supported under the 3+Share NOS (in <1Mb >> RAM). >> >> These were followed by the 3S400 & 3S500 machines, which are >> not interesing as they are little more than stock ISA 80386 >> machines running at 16MHz. These guys could run 3+Share, or >> 3+Open (a.k.a. OS/2 LanMan as pointed out above). ISTR that >> they added TCP/IP late in that products life. >> >> Then Novell took over the world and all of the above 'stuff' >> died in obscurity. >> >> It was at this point where I learned in my life that I had a >> knack for picking losers. >> >> I need a stiff drink now . . . . >> > > Ohh yes. In my first job, doing networks support in 1988, I supported > a number of 3Server3s. I got to know 3+Share alarmingly well, given > that I never saw a manual. We also ran 3+Share on a number of generic > IBM PS/2 servers - there was a version of it for generic hardware too. > On a PS/2 Model 60, it ran in 1MB RAM and didn't use the top 384K - so > everything happened in 640K. I found a program to run on a 286 to map > extended memory as LIM EMS and got a gratifyingly large performance > boost - until I discovered that 3Com's DOS-multitasking cleverness > stomped on the XMS-EMS app and had corrupted the disk. I recovered > 5000 trashed files from a disk dump, by hand. What a lovely job that > was. > > And about 4y later, when I moved to London and got a job with a > high-street VAR on Tottenham Court Road, my new boss was overjoyed to > discover that I knew 3Servers and 3+Share and immediately handed me > Mentorn Films (think Challenge Anneka and the like) as my sole > responsibility - the company's only one with this bizarre old > hardware. They ran a LAN of 286s and 386SXs running runtime Windows 2 > with Excel as their accounts department LAN. These machines never had > mice, so not only did everyone know how to use Excel solely by > keyboard control, all the machines had the Excel cross cursor burned > into the middle of the monitor - there was no way to move it and > Windows 2 was too dumb to hide it if a mouse was not connected. > > I wrote the original Wikipedia article on the 3Servers, IIRC. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3Server > > Contributions welcome! > > > From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Fri Feb 13 09:15:24 2009 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 10:15:24 -0500 Subject: Dr. Dobbs to cease? In-Reply-To: <575131af0902130643p5ed3453awa6d6c615d1d37885@mail.gmail.com> References: <200901131206.11848.rtellason@verizon.net> <496CDE95.4070808@jetnet.ab.ca> <496CE0F2.2090709@jetnet.ab.ca> <5f7d1b0e0901131056o6eed12f7w4a432fec6affdcf1@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0902130643p5ed3453awa6d6c615d1d37885@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5f7d1b0e0902130715u565ea279r4c76cead0956f588@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Feb 13, 2009 at 9:43 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > 2009/1/13 Jason McBrien : > > Smalltalk begat Squeak, which is what the Sugar interface is based on in > > those new XO laptops. > > I am a frayed knot. > > Sugar is written in Python running on Linux. > > However, the eToys program on OLPC XO-1s is indeed based on Squeak. Drats, you're absolutely right. The Sugar GUI does look a bit Squeakish, though. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Feb 13 09:52:26 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 07:52:26 -0800 Subject: Nicolet 660 In-Reply-To: <7.0.1.0.2.20090212201513.0260f0e8@verizon.net> References: <79085.44996.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <49931C11.305@axeside.co.uk> <7.0.1.0.2.20090212201513.0260f0e8@verizon.net> Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > From: dj.taylor4 at verizon.net ---snip--- > > If you got a picture it sure would bring back old memories. > > Doug > Hi Doug Here is a picture of one in a consile. Mine is just the CPU and a floppy drive. http://www.vintage.org/nicolet/nicolet.htm In the tapes we have, we've only found a BASIC and assembler. We've not found a FORTAN but we keep looking. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live?: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect. http://windowslive.com/howitworks?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_allup_howitworks_022009 From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 13 10:54:53 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 09:54:53 -0700 Subject: Can anyone identify these "multipage" terminals? Message-ID: Anyone recognize these? I've never seen or heard of them before. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Feb 13 12:05:52 2009 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 13:05:52 -0500 Subject: Wanted: Processor Technology GPM card... Message-ID: I can buy or trade but I would prefer to trade. I have a large collection of S-100 cards and some other goodies to work a trade with. If it has the CUTTER ROM, all the better. If not, I can burn a 2708 (and I'll probably post a "Wanted: CUTTER ROM dump" message). Thanks, Bill Sudbrink From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Feb 13 12:21:49 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 13:21:49 -0500 Subject: Nicolet 660 In-Reply-To: <49958203.8090404@bitsavers.org> References: <49958203.8090404@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Feb 13, 2009, at 9:21 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > Then, there are all the PC instruments that had custom cards and > software > to talk to their widget. The parts are separated, and no one saves the > card inside the PC or the software to make it work. I have exactly this problem on a much older scale. I have a Floating Point Systems AP-180V, which connects to a card in a VAX-11/750. The AP-180V and the 11/750 went their own separate ways when the system was decommissioned, and of course the completely unobtainable interface card stayed in the 11/750. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From IanK at vulcan.com Fri Feb 13 12:26:50 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 10:26:50 -0800 Subject: Bletchley Park fires up Big Green-Eyed Monster * The Register In-Reply-To: <4CAEE50D-E33B-4113-9EF5-A7BE5A304D38@shiresoft.com> References: <49947F73.1020604@sbcglobal.net> <49948784.2070101@update.uu.se> <4CAEE50D-E33B-4113-9EF5-A7BE5A304D38@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: I asked. :-) There are two 11/84s, with two 11/34s slaved (one controlling each display). Everything boots off a SSD RK05 replacement. Cool, huh? -- Ian -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Guy Sotomayor Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2009 12:38 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Bletchley Park fires up Big Green-Eyed Monster * The Register On Feb 12, 2009, at 12:33 PM, Pontus wrote: > Dave Woyciesjes wrote: >> http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/02/12/iris/ > > Are those 11/44s ? Could be 11/84's as well. Hard to tell from that picture. TTFN - Guy From tshoppa at wmata.com Fri Feb 13 12:29:08 2009 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 13:29:08 -0500 Subject: Can anyone identify these "multipage" terminals? Message-ID: <499575A4020000370004B043@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> > Anyone recognize these? I've never seen or heard of them before. > I don't recognize multipage as a brand name, but those sure look a lot like the generic 3270 clones that were everywhere in the 80's and 90's. A picture of a keyboard or the connections on the back of a terminal would confirm my guess. Tim. From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 13 12:51:59 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 11:51:59 -0700 Subject: Can anyone identify these "multipage" terminals? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 13 Feb 2009 13:29:08 -0500. <499575A4020000370004B043@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Message-ID: In article <499575A4020000370004B043 at gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com>, "Tim Shoppa" writes: > > Anyone recognize these? I've never seen or heard of them before. > > > > I don't recognize multipage as a brand name, but those sure look a lot > like the generic 3270 clones that were everywhere in the 80's and 90's. That's kinda what I thought too. > A picture of a keyboard or the connections on the back of a terminal would > confirm my guess. Its an all-or-nothing lot, I'm not particularly interested in it as I don't need *that* many terminals of the same type unless they are Tektronix graphics terminals or something similarly cool :-). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From toby at coreware.co.uk Fri Feb 13 12:59:55 2009 From: toby at coreware.co.uk (Tobias Russell) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 18:59:55 +0000 Subject: Any have a CMD CQD-200/M manual? Message-ID: <1234551595.12192.159.camel@spasmo> Hi, Has anyone by change got a manual for a CQD-200/M (QBUS SCSI controller). The device is pretty similar to the CQD-220/M, which has a pdf on bitsavers, but jumpers are alas not the same and I just want to check I've got everything set correctly and enable its bootstrap I've fired it up on my PDP-11/23+ with an RZ27 disk and I can indeed access it via RT-11 but I only get a 32MB (65K blocks) disk after an initialize. Does RT-11 have a 65K block limit on a disk? Thanks, Toby -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Fri Feb 13 13:08:28 2009 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 20:08:28 +0100 Subject: Any have a CMD CQD-200/M manual? In-Reply-To: <1234551595.12192.159.camel@spasmo> References: <1234551595.12192.159.camel@spasmo> Message-ID: > From: toby at coreware.co.uk > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 18:59:55 +0000 > Subject: Any have a CMD CQD-200/M manual? > > Hi, > > Has anyone by change got a manual for a CQD-200/M (QBUS SCSI > controller). > > The device is pretty similar to the CQD-220/M, which has a pdf on > bitsavers, but jumpers are alas not the same and I just want to check > I've got everything set correctly and enable its bootstrap > > I've fired it up on my PDP-11/23+ with an RZ27 disk and I can indeed > access it via RT-11 but I only get a 32MB (65K blocks) disk after an > initialize. Does RT-11 have a 65K block limit on a disk? > > Thanks, > Toby Jup, the maximum partition in RT11 is 32 MB. - Henk, PA8PDP From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 13 12:45:01 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 18:45:01 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Advice for Tek 4051 vector-drawing issue? In-Reply-To: <4994BDA2.5020701@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Feb 13, 9 00:24:02 am Message-ID: > > Josh Dersch wrote: > > My multimeter doesn't go that high (I really need to get a good one one > > of these days.) > > My Fluke 25 won't go that high either -- max range on that is 32 > megohms. I've I have a high voltag insulation tester that would easily measure 39M, but (a) you'd have to take the resisotrs out of circuit (I don't think the other bits would like having a few hundred volts across them) and (b) I am not sure how accurate it is. It would pick up a shorted or open resistor, sure. > got a Solartron 7150plus bench DMM that can read down to one milliohm in the > 2K-ohm range (6.5 digits with averaging enabled), but still limits at 20M-ohms > max. > > > I replaced these with two 20M's in series (figured it'd > > be close enough to at least see if it changes anything, and I can't find > > any place that actually stocks 39M resistors that aren't SMD...) No > > change in display behavior. > > The spec in the parts list was 1%. 1% of 39M is 390k-ohms either way... 40M is > well out of spec. Yes, but unless the original resistor has drifted to 40M, then fitting a 40M reisstor in place of it should change the symptoms. It may not be possible to get to the original spec (strightness of lines, etc) but you should see some change. > I'm starting to wonder if some normally-irrelevant parameter of those poly > caps has shifted and fragged the vector generator. I am wondering if the fault could be further back. What if one or both of the DACs has 'gone slow', and no longer produces a sharp output change when you change the digitial inputs? -tony From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Fri Feb 13 14:27:10 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 15:27:10 -0500 Subject: Any have a CMD CQD-200/M manual? References: <1234551595.12192.159.camel@spasmo> Message-ID: <18837.55198.409588.10443@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Henk" == Henk Gooijen writes: >> I've fired it up on my PDP-11/23+ with an RZ27 disk and I can >> indeed access it via RT-11 but I only get a 32MB (65K blocks) disk >> after an initialize. Does RT-11 have a 65K block limit on a disk? Henk> Jup, the maximum partition in RT11 is 32 MB. The RT11 file system structure uses 16 bit block numbers. paul From toby at coreware.co.uk Fri Feb 13 14:59:06 2009 From: toby at coreware.co.uk (Tobias Russell) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 20:59:06 +0000 Subject: Any have a CMD CQD-200/M manual? In-Reply-To: <18837.55198.409588.10443@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <1234551595.12192.159.camel@spasmo> <18837.55198.409588.10443@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <1234558746.12192.164.camel@spasmo> Am I right in thinking I get use the SET command to build a map table so I can use the rest of the space? If so anyone know the commands I need to issue? Thanks, Toby On Fri, 2009-02-13 at 15:27 -0500, Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Henk" == Henk Gooijen writes: > > >> I've fired it up on my PDP-11/23+ with an RZ27 disk and I can > >> indeed access it via RT-11 but I only get a 32MB (65K blocks) disk > >> after an initialize. Does RT-11 have a 65K block limit on a disk? > > Henk> Jup, the maximum partition in RT11 is 32 MB. > > The RT11 file system structure uses 16 bit block numbers. > > paul > > -- This message has been scanned for viruses and dangerous content by MailScanner, and is believed to be clean. From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Feb 13 15:15:41 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 13:15:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Any have a CMD CQD-200/M manual? In-Reply-To: <1234558746.12192.164.camel@spasmo> References: <1234551595.12192.159.camel@spasmo> <18837.55198.409588.10443@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1234558746.12192.164.camel@spasmo> Message-ID: On Fri, 13 Feb 2009, Tobias Russell wrote: > Am I right in thinking I get use the SET command to build a map table so > I can use the rest of the space? > > If so anyone know the commands I need to issue? You don't mention what version of RT-11 you're running, just how many partitioins you can have will depend on the version. My guess is you're limited to 8, as you need to be at 5.5 or higher to have more. I think this is right, my notes and systems are temporarily all in storage. :-( SET DU0: PORT=0, UNIT=0, PART=0 SET DU1: PORT=0, UNIT=0, PART=1 SET DU2: PORT=0, UNIT=0, PART=2 SET DU3: PORT=0, UNIT=0, PART=3 Zane From slawmaster at gmail.com Fri Feb 13 18:26:51 2009 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 19:26:51 -0500 Subject: Nicolet 660 In-Reply-To: <7d3530220902110857h7dfea298l7196cc12b4d4d29e@mail.gmail.com> References: <7d3530220902110857h7dfea298l7196cc12b4d4d29e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7d3530220902131626g4deb673akcbcf91c44381bf07@mail.gmail.com> Today we tried a bit more work on the Nicolet in the hopes of seeing what is wrong with the hard drive. Having opened it up, the hard drive is labeled as a Priam 803-21 8" SMD drive. We ran the disk checking utility, SMDBUSTER, but got a SMD timeout when we tried to select the drive (see http://csplan9.rit.edu/users/john/nicolet/IMG_1633.jpg). The hard drive does spin up; we can feel it spinning by touching the enclosure. The bootup screen seems to indicate that at least some models supported booting from a Winchester drive, but since this unit never had a Winchester installed it may lack the hardware to handle it. If anyone has a Priam 803-21 lying around, maybe you can help us: there did not seem to be any status lights on it, but we couldn't see the whole thing without removing all the screws and cables (which we didn't do at that time). From the prices I'm seeing online, these drives must have solid gold platters and diamond bearings, so unless somebody has one sitting around unused to go really cheap, I don't know that buying a replacement drive is really an option. We took some pictures too, you can find them at http://csplan9.rit.edu/magic/webls?dir=/users/john/nicolet http://csplan9.rit.edu/users/john/nicolet/IMG_1640.jpg is a shot of the front. WARNING! Large files (several megs each)! I didn't resize them because I didn't feel like spending all the time especially since I don't have to pay for the bandwidth on that server... John -- "I've tried programming Ruby on Rails, following TechCrunch in my RSS reader, and drinking absinthe. It doesn't work. I'm going back to C, Hunter S. Thompson, and cheap whiskey." -- Ted Dziuba From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Fri Feb 13 18:56:44 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 16:56:44 -0800 Subject: Source for 12.44Mhz crystals? Message-ID: <499616CC.4050500@mail.msu.edu> Hey all -- While I'm waiting for other parts to arrive for my Tek project... anyone know where to find 12.44Mhz crystals? I acquired an old SSM VB1B video card (with an amazing 64 cols by 16 rows display capability!) that was only mostly-assembled, and the crystal is missing. According to the manual (http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/s100c/ssm/vb1b.pdf), it's a 12.44 Mhz part but I can't for the life of me find one anywhere -- even my Google searches mostly return links to the VB1B manual :). (And while we're at it -- my Tek project needs a pair of 39M-ohm resistors... anyone know where to find _these_? I know I can hack one up by putting a few others in series, but it's quite a mess...) Thanks, Josh From chris at mainecoon.com Fri Feb 13 19:13:11 2009 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 17:13:11 -0800 Subject: Source for 12.44Mhz crystals? In-Reply-To: <499616CC.4050500@mail.msu.edu> References: <499616CC.4050500@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <49961AA7.2000104@mainecoon.com> Josh Dersch wrote: > According to the manual > (http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/s100c/ssm/vb1b.pdf), it's a 12.44 > Mhz part but I can't for the life of me find one anywhere -- even my > Google searches mostly return links to the VB1B manual :). There's a number of manufacturers out there who will fabricate crystals in single quantities for essentially chump change. Most of the stuff that I've done recently has been with ICM (http://www.icmfg.com) but there are many other vendors out there. The only real downside is that you may have to wait a few weeks to get the part, as they al seem hell bent on aging hem before they let them out of the house. -- Chris Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP/AFA9KC http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." From ak6dn at mindspring.com Fri Feb 13 19:49:31 2009 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 17:49:31 -0800 Subject: Source for 12.44Mhz crystals? In-Reply-To: <499616CC.4050500@mail.msu.edu> References: <499616CC.4050500@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4996232B.8090305@mindspring.com> Josh Dersch wrote: > Hey all -- > > While I'm waiting for other parts to arrive for my Tek project... > anyone know where to find 12.44Mhz crystals? I acquired an old SSM > VB1B video card (with an amazing 64 cols by 16 rows display > capability!) that was only mostly-assembled, and the crystal is missing. > > According to the manual > (http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/s100c/ssm/vb1b.pdf), it's a 12.44 > Mhz part but I can't for the life of me find one anywhere -- even my > Google searches mostly return links to the VB1B manual :). > > (And while we're at it -- my Tek project needs a pair of 39M-ohm > resistors... anyone know where to find _these_? I know I can hack one > up by putting a few others in series, but it's quite a mess...) > How about this: http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=SM104FE-40M-ND 40M +/- 1% is within 3% of 39M (which was probably +/- 5%). ~$5 each at DigiKey Most standard resistors top out at 10M or so, some specials at 22M. 39M gets you to the esoteric range. > Thanks, > Josh > From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri Feb 13 19:51:41 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 17:51:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Datasheet for ICT 27CX321 EPROM? Message-ID: <676790.13365.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I've got a handfull of these things that I've been trying to use. My programmer supports them, and I was hoping that they would have the same pinout as a 2732. At the moment, I'm not so sure. So far, I've had three of these chips in the eraser for a good 45 minutes total. If I set the programmer to the ICT 27CX321, it won't blank check - although reading it in and examining the data produces something composed mostly FF's - though not entirely. If I set the programmer to a generic 2732, it passes blank check. I haven't tried programming one yet - although I suppose I could try to fill one with zeroes. So, I take it that these things have a different pinout? I can't find any data on these. Any help would be appreciated. -Ian From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 13 21:18:29 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 19:18:29 -0800 Subject: Source for 12.44Mhz crystals? In-Reply-To: <499616CC.4050500@mail.msu.edu> References: <499616CC.4050500@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <4995C785.6580.1184657E@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Feb 2009 at 16:56, Josh Dersch wrote: > According to the manual > (http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/s100c/ssm/vb1b.pdf), it's a 12.44 > Mhz part but I can't for the life of me find one anywhere -- even my > Google searches mostly return links to the VB1B manual :). Did you check with this guy? http://www.kenselectronics.com/lists/cbxtal.htm He claims to have that frequency. Cheers, Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Feb 13 23:10:14 2009 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 21:10:14 -0800 Subject: Nicolet 660 In-Reply-To: <7d3530220902131626g4deb673akcbcf91c44381bf07@mail.gmail.com> References: <7d3530220902110857h7dfea298l7196cc12b4d4d29e@mail.gmail.com> <7d3530220902131626g4deb673akcbcf91c44381bf07@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: ---------------------------------------- > Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 19:26:51 -0500 > From: slawmaster at gmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Nicolet 660 > > Today we tried a bit more work on the Nicolet in the hopes of seeing > what is wrong with the hard drive. Having opened it up, the hard drive > is labeled as a Priam 803-21 8" SMD drive. We ran the disk checking > utility, SMDBUSTER, but got a SMD timeout when we tried to select the > drive (see http://csplan9.rit.edu/users/john/nicolet/IMG_1633.jpg). > The hard drive does spin up; we can feel it spinning by touching the > enclosure. The bootup screen seems to indicate that at least some > models supported booting from a Winchester drive, but since this unit > never had a Winchester installed it may lack the hardware to handle > it. > Hi Have you looked to see if there was a head lock? Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live?: E-mail. Chat. Share. Get more ways to connect. http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_allup_explore_022009 From slawmaster at gmail.com Fri Feb 13 23:17:32 2009 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2009 00:17:32 -0500 Subject: Nicolet 660 In-Reply-To: References: <7d3530220902110857h7dfea298l7196cc12b4d4d29e@mail.gmail.com> <7d3530220902131626g4deb673akcbcf91c44381bf07@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <7d3530220902132117m4d0054dckd404465321483b11@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Feb 14, 2009 at 12:10 AM, dwight elvey wrote: > > > > ---------------------------------------- >> Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 19:26:51 -0500 >> From: slawmaster at gmail.com >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Re: Nicolet 660 >> >> Today we tried a bit more work on the Nicolet in the hopes of seeing >> what is wrong with the hard drive. Having opened it up, the hard drive >> is labeled as a Priam 803-21 8" SMD drive. We ran the disk checking >> utility, SMDBUSTER, but got a SMD timeout when we tried to select the >> drive (see http://csplan9.rit.edu/users/john/nicolet/IMG_1633.jpg). >> The hard drive does spin up; we can feel it spinning by touching the >> enclosure. The bootup screen seems to indicate that at least some >> models supported booting from a Winchester drive, but since this unit >> never had a Winchester installed it may lack the hardware to handle >> it. >> > > Hi > Have you looked to see if there was a head lock? > Dwight > Could you explain about head locks? I have never heard of the term. Thanks John -- "I've tried programming Ruby on Rails, following TechCrunch in my RSS reader, and drinking absinthe. It doesn't work. I'm going back to C, Hunter S. Thompson, and cheap whiskey." -- Ted Dziuba From chris at mainecoon.com Fri Feb 13 23:48:40 2009 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 21:48:40 -0800 Subject: Nicolet 660 In-Reply-To: <7d3530220902132117m4d0054dckd404465321483b11@mail.gmail.com> References: <7d3530220902110857h7dfea298l7196cc12b4d4d29e@mail.gmail.com> <7d3530220902131626g4deb673akcbcf91c44381bf07@mail.gmail.com> <7d3530220902132117m4d0054dckd404465321483b11@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <49965B38.80401@mainecoon.com> John Floren wrote: > Could you explain about head locks? I have never heard of the term. Many SMD drives have mechanical spindle and head locks for shipping purposes. It's pretty obvious when either are in place, as the thing won't spin or the heads won't load, respectively -- although both should result in a fault condition. Your problem almost sounds like a bad/mis-connected B-cable. -- Chris Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP/AFA9KC http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." From jtp at chinalake.com Fri Feb 13 23:54:15 2009 From: jtp at chinalake.com (J. Peterson) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2009 00:54:15 -0500 Subject: Free for the cost of shipping DEC HSJ memory card (I believe) In-Reply-To: <200902131800.n1DI0SWs087548@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200902131800.n1DI0SWs087548@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <49965C87.3050007@chinalake.com> I was cleaning out a box of PCMCIA cards and found a gray thin pcmcia memory card with no markings on it. I believe it was used to load some of the HSJs when we got updates. If anyone wants it, I'll drop it in the post (US or Int'l) for the cost of shipping. From kmar at lle.rochester.edu Sat Feb 14 01:00:28 2009 From: kmar at lle.rochester.edu (Kenneth Marshall) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2009 02:00:28 -0500 Subject: Nicolet 660 In-Reply-To: <49965B38.80401@mainecoon.com> References: <7d3530220902110857h7dfea298l7196cc12b4d4d29e@mail.gmail.com> <7d3530220902131626g4deb673akcbcf91c44381bf07@mail.gmail.com> <7d3530220902132117m4d0054dckd404465321483b11@mail.gmail.com> <49965B38.80401@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: On Feb 14, 2009, at 12:48 AM, Chris Kennedy wrote: > John Floren wrote: > >> Could you explain about head locks? I have never heard of the term. > > Many SMD drives have mechanical spindle and head locks for shipping > purposes. It's pretty obvious when either are in place, as the thing > won't spin or the heads won't load, respectively -- although both > should > result in a fault condition. > > Your problem almost sounds like a bad/mis-connected B-cable. > > -- > Chris Kennedy > chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP/AFA9KC > http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 > PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 > "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." > I can guarantee that the heads are not locked. The NIC 6600 workstation was working condition, 24/7 until about 4 years ago, when I came in one morning to use the FTIR spectrometer it was connected to and got the SMD timeout error when trying to access the FTIR software on the SMD disk. Spent some time back then checking for loose cables and other obvious problems, but couldn't find anything that stood out. It had been running fine the previous day- no power outages in the building, etc. It's been powered down in it's original location since then,until this week. Ken Marshall Kenneth L. Marshall Research Engineer, Optical Materials Laboratory for Laser Energetics University of Rochester 250 East River Rd Rochester, NY 14623 Phone: (585)-275-8247 Fax: (585)-275-5960 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 13 10:10:34 2009 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 08:10:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: 8088 vs. 80c88 Message-ID: <35504.91568.qm@web65506.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> regardless, and be sure I am no expert on semiconductor manufacturing, I'd be surprised to find out that all 8088's were CMOS after a certain date. The 80c88's were used mostly in small laptops, no? (small being anything smaller then that Zenith big honker, w/the shocking blue display. It used a *real* 8088 IINM). A CMOS version would be slower and more prone to damage from static electricity. And it would require less power. Off the top of my head I can't think of any desktops that used them, but I may have actually ran into 1 or 2 in my travels. ?But I am glad you managed to answer your own question Jimbo :) --- On Thu, 2/12/09, Jim Leonard wrote: From: Jim Leonard Subject: Re: 8088 vs. 80c88 To: General at mail.mobygames.com, "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Thursday, February 12, 2009, 2:49 PM Jim Leonard wrote: > So a simple routine to try to identify the 8088 vs. the 80c88 would look something like: > >???mov? ???cx,2? ? ? ? ? ? ; test if following instruction will be >? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???; repeated twice. >???db? ? ? 0F3h,26h,0ACh???; rep es: lodsb >???jcxz? ? Yes? ? ? ? ? ???; intel non-CMOS chips do not care of rep >???jmp? ???Nope? ? ? ? ? ? ; before segment prefix override, NEC and >? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???; CMOS-tech ones does. It turns out my information is bad.? The bug only asserts itself when an interrupt occurs during the REP.? Buggy CPUs don't continue; later ones do.? So to fix my detection code, I will increase the count in cx to something much longer, probably f000. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org)? ? ? ? ? ? http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project:? ? ? ? ???http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at? ???http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Feb 13 10:19:04 2009 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 08:19:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: "Infoshare" or OEM Netware 1.0? was Re: Novell 68K file server Message-ID: <49004.21954.qm@web65506.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> I have to assume then that the software that ran on the 3*'s was a later development then the stuff that ran on the Televideo Personal Mini series (80286 based). Dubbed Infoshare, which was an OEM release of early Netware (and I am looking for it). Other boxes that come to mind are the Northstar Dimension (80186), and an Altos box. Not sure what they ran though. There was a PM/286 too, which ran a later version of Infoshare IINM. ?Anyone familiar w/the Burroughs '286 boxes that also weren't MS-DOS based? ?Sorry didn't mean to *help* hijack the thread. That is a very interesting piece. The peculiar 68k stuff is far and away the rarer birds though, sadly snifful. From julianskidmore at yahoo.com Fri Feb 13 11:58:17 2009 From: julianskidmore at yahoo.com (Julian Skidmore) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 09:58:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: BLINKENLIGHTS! Rare Hewlett Packard HP1000 1000F Message-ID: <993440.60502.qm@web37102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi folks, HP1000 F-series available from Ebay UK. http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BLINKENLIGHTS-Rare-Hewlett-Packard-HP1000-1000F_W0QQitemZ230323899849QQihZ013QQcategoryZ4193QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem The seller even includes the classic Blinkenlights text! -cheers from julz @P. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Feb 13 17:23:24 2009 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 18:23:24 -0500 Subject: 8088 vs. 80c88 Message-ID: <0KF1006O528NF103@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: 8088 vs. 80c88 > From: Chris M > Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 08:10:34 -0800 (PST) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >regardless, and be sure I am no expert on semiconductor manufacturing, I'd be surprised to find out that all 8088's were CMOS after a certain date. The 80c88's were used mostly in small laptops, no? No they wer eused in many stationary apps wherelow power was desired. (small being anything smaller then that Zenith big honker, w/the shocking blue display. It used a *real* 8088 IINM). A CMOS version would be slower and more prone to damage from static electricity. And it would require less power. Off the top of my head I can't think of any desktops that used them, but I may have actually ran into 1 or 2 in my travels. They were not slower, most were as fast or faster. I have a few here. 10mhz and 12mhz parts along with 80C188s (12 and 16mhz). Allison >?But I am glad you managed to answer your own question Jimbo :) > >--- On Thu, 2/12/09, Jim Leonard wrote: > >From: Jim Leonard >Subject: Re: 8088 vs. 80c88 >To: General at mail.mobygames.com, "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >Date: Thursday, February 12, 2009, 2:49 PM > >Jim Leonard wrote: >> So a simple routine to try to identify the 8088 vs. the 80c88 would look something like: >> >>???mov? ???cx,2? ? ? ? ? ? ; test if following instruction will be >>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???; repeated twice. >>???db? ? ? 0F3h,26h,0ACh???; rep es: lodsb >>???jcxz? ? Yes? ? ? ? ? ???; intel non-CMOS chips do not care of rep >>???jmp? ???Nope? ? ? ? ? ? ; before segment prefix override, NEC and >>? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ???; CMOS-tech ones does. > >It turns out my information is bad.? The bug only asserts itself when an interrupt occurs during the REP.? Buggy CPUs don't continue; later ones do.? So to fix my detection code, I will increase the count in cx to something much longer, probably f000. >-- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org)? ? ? ? ? ? http://www.oldskool.org/ >Help our electronic games project:? ? ? ? ???http://www.mobygames.com/ >Or check out some trippy MindCandy at? ???http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ >A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ >=0A=0A=0A From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sat Feb 14 05:45:54 2009 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2009 12:45:54 +0100 Subject: BLINKENLIGHTS! Rare Hewlett Packard HP1000 1000F In-Reply-To: <993440.60502.qm@web37102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <993440.60502.qm@web37102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Date: Fri, 13 Feb 2009 09:58:17 -0800 > From: julianskidmore at yahoo.com > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > CC: julianskidmore at yahoo.com > Subject: BLINKENLIGHTS! Rare Hewlett Packard HP1000 1000F > > Hi folks, > > HP1000 F-series available from Ebay UK. > > http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BLINKENLIGHTS-Rare-Hewlett-Packard-HP1000-1000F_W0QQitemZ230323899849QQihZ013QQcategoryZ4193QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > > The seller even includes the classic Blinkenlights text! > > -cheers from julz @P. I had a look at the auction, out of curiosity. Even if you are not interested in HP stuff, read it ... I had a few smiles and moments of recognition :-) - Henk, PA8PDP From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sat Feb 14 06:02:39 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sat, 14 Feb 2009 04:02:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: Nicolet 660 In-Reply-To: <7d3530220902131626g4deb673akcbcf91c44381bf07@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <498426.31628.qm@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Fri, 2/13/09, John Floren wrote: > We took some pictures too, you can find them at > http://csplan9.rit.edu/magic/webls?dir=/users/john/nicolet > http://csplan9.rit.edu/users/john/nicolet/IMG_1640.jpg is a > shot of > the front. WARNING! Large files (several megs each)! I > didn't resize > them because I didn't feel like spending all the time > especially since > I don't have to pay for the bandwidth on that server... Wow. Fuzzy pictures :) I don't think I've ever owned an SMD drive that tiny. The Seagate Sabre drives are quite a bit larger - they contain their own power supply and have their own faceplates for rack mounting. That's the size of just the HDA (Head Disk Assembly) in the Sabre. If you can't get this drive to work, I would look in the docs and see what kind of SMD drive it needs - most SMD drives have dip switches to change sector size and such. You could very possibly use another SMD drive, and just hook it up externally - as you might not find one the same form factor. -Ian From martinm at allwest.net Mon Feb 16 12:20:20 2009 From: martinm at allwest.net (Martin Marshall) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 11:20:20 -0700 Subject: Awfully Quiet out There Message-ID: <5E418A1FD0C0430B9BF787B1E4DDBB7D@p4266> Anyone about? It's been very quiet since 2/14 - any list problems? Martin From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Mon Feb 16 19:40:51 2009 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 17:40:51 -0800 Subject: Heathkit ET-3400 Epay $10 References: <499616CC.4050500@mail.msu.edu> <49961AA7.2000104@mainecoon.com> Message-ID: <000501c990a0$c454f900$0201a8c0@hal9000> Currently at $10 ( USD ). Needs a good bath..... Item Number 380103975471 . No I'm not selling it. Best regards, Steven From evan at snarc.net Mon Feb 16 23:10:08 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 00:10:08 -0500 Subject: No adjective for this ebay item Message-ID: <000601c990be$01fec6b0$0301a8c0@evan> Kaypro II. Buy it now price: $35,000. 300039229895 http://tinyurl.com/dykuue From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Feb 17 11:12:38 2009 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 09:12:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: No adjective for this ebay item In-Reply-To: <000601c990be$01fec6b0$0301a8c0@evan> References: <000601c990be$01fec6b0$0301a8c0@evan> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Feb 2009, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Kaypro II. Buy it now price: $35,000. > > 300039229895 > > http://tinyurl.com/dykuue That guy has been trying to sell that thing at that price for at least a year. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue Feb 17 11:13:13 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 14:13:13 -0300 Subject: BLINKENLIGHTS! Rare Hewlett Packard HP1000 1000F References: <993440.60502.qm@web37102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <015101c99123$19859ec0$d08f19bb@DeskJara> I had a look at the auction, out of curiosity. Even if you are not interested in HP stuff, read it ... I had a few smiles and moments of recognition :-) ============ And a nice Escort Ghia MK3 on the background hehehhe From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Feb 17 11:32:24 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 12:32:24 -0500 Subject: No adjective for this ebay item In-Reply-To: References: <000601c990be$01fec6b0$0301a8c0@evan> Message-ID: On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 12:12 PM, David Griffith wrote: > On Tue, 17 Feb 2009, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> Kaypro II. Buy it now price: $35,000. >> >> 300039229895 >> >> http://tinyurl.com/dykuue > > That guy has been trying to sell that thing at that price for at least a > year. At that price, you only have to sell the one. -ethan From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Tue Feb 17 11:44:02 2009 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 11:44:02 -0600 Subject: BLINKENLIGHTS! Rare Hewlett Packard HP1000 1000F In-Reply-To: <015101c99123$19859ec0$d08f19bb@DeskJara> References: <993440.60502.qm@web37102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <015101c99123$19859ec0$d08f19bb@DeskJara> Message-ID: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E033AA32D@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> What's the #...I can't find the auction. -Bob bbrown at harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Supervisor of Operations Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Alexandre Souza Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 11:13 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: BLINKENLIGHTS! Rare Hewlett Packard HP1000 1000F I had a look at the auction, out of curiosity. Even if you are not interested in HP stuff, read it ... I had a few smiles and moments of recognition :-) ============ And a nice Escort Ghia MK3 on the background hehehhe From melamy at earthlink.net Tue Feb 17 11:46:36 2009 From: melamy at earthlink.net (melamy at earthlink.net) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 09:46:36 -0800 (GMT-08:00) Subject: No adjective for this ebay item Message-ID: <20560349.1234892799569.JavaMail.root@mswamui-billy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> unfortunately eBay only charges the guy $ 0.35 for the listing... Maybe he is hoping for a miracle! best regards, Steve Thatcher -----Original Message----- >From: David Griffith > >That guy has been trying to sell that thing at that price for at least a >year. > >-- >David Griffith From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Tue Feb 17 11:51:10 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 18:51:10 +0100 Subject: BLINKENLIGHTS! Rare Hewlett Packard HP1000 1000F In-Reply-To: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E033AA32D@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> References: <993440.60502.qm@web37102.mail.mud.yahoo.com><015101c99123$19859ec0$d08f19bb@DeskJara> <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E033AA32D@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Message-ID: Yep, you're on the wrong site of the water ;-) Try ebay.co.uk then you should find it, it's over now someone won it. It was to far away for me so I didn't bid ;-(( -Rik > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Bob Brown > Verzonden: dinsdag 17 februari 2009 18:44 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: RE: BLINKENLIGHTS! Rare Hewlett Packard HP1000 1000F > > What's the #...I can't find the auction. > -Bob > > > bbrown at harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper > Community College ## ## ## Supervisor of Operations > Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Alexandre Souza > Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 11:13 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Re: BLINKENLIGHTS! Rare Hewlett Packard HP1000 1000F > > I had a look at the auction, out of curiosity. > Even if you are not interested in HP stuff, read it ... > I had a few smiles and moments of recognition :-) ============ > > And a nice Escort Ghia MK3 on the background hehehhe > > From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Feb 17 11:51:59 2009 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 11:51:59 -0600 Subject: Altos & M/PM manuals available Message-ID: <51ea77730902170951g7b9a01bex493c78d7baa98e1a@mail.gmail.com> I have a large box of Altos materials here that I would like to find a home for. About half of it is standard bound books, which will go first. The remainder is ringbound and I am going to attempt to scan them. In addition to manuals there is a lot of dealer sales material, including about a dozen issues of the monthly sales newsletter "ALTOgether." The first lot includes manuals for the Altos 486 (which was really an 80186,) Altos 586/986, Altos XENIX, and a few for the M/PM-II and MPM-86 operating systems. A couple books are a bit warped from sitting in a box too long, but they're all in pretty good shape otherwise. All in all about 16lbs of books. Free for the cost of shipping (Media Mail rate shouldn't be too bad) from 60074. -j From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Tue Feb 17 12:03:08 2009 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 13:03:08 -0500 Subject: No adjective for this ebay item In-Reply-To: <20560349.1234892799569.JavaMail.root@mswamui-billy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <200902171803.n1HI3DlW053904@keith.ezwind.net> a 35 cents listing fee is a small price to pay to have your ebay store browsed by someone like me, who sees a listing and asks who is this guy? is he for real? A Kaypro for $35k is just off beat enough to sucker me into taking a look. How many others on this list, looked at his ebay store ? I expect the he is trolling for comments. The other Bob On Tue, 17 Feb 2009 09:46:36 -0800 (GMT-08:00), melamy at earthlink.net wrote: >unfortunately eBay only charges the guy $ 0.35 for the listing... Maybe he is hoping for a miracle! >best regards, Steve Thatcher >-----Original Message----- >>From: David Griffith >> >>That guy has been trying to sell that thing at that price for at least a >>year. >> >>-- >>David Griffith From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Feb 17 12:08:51 2009 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 10:08:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: No adjective for this ebay item In-Reply-To: <000601c990be$01fec6b0$0301a8c0@evan> References: <000601c990be$01fec6b0$0301a8c0@evan> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Feb 2009, Evan Koblentz wrote: > Kaypro II. Buy it now price: $35,000. > > 300039229895 > Wow, it's actually gone up in price. The last time that idiot posted it, the BIN was $25,000. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Tue Feb 17 12:09:40 2009 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 12:09:40 -0600 Subject: BLINKENLIGHTS! Rare Hewlett Packard HP1000 1000F In-Reply-To: References: <993440.60502.qm@web37102.mail.mud.yahoo.com><015101c99123$19859ec0$d08f19bb@DeskJara><3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E033AA32D@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Message-ID: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E033AA32E@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> I still don't see it...can you post the auction#? thanks. -Bob bbrown at harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Supervisor of Operations Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rik Bos Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 11:51 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: BLINKENLIGHTS! Rare Hewlett Packard HP1000 1000F Yep, you're on the wrong site of the water ;-) Try ebay.co.uk then you should find it, it's over now someone won it. It was to far away for me so I didn't bid ;-(( -Rik > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Bob Brown > Verzonden: dinsdag 17 februari 2009 18:44 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: RE: BLINKENLIGHTS! Rare Hewlett Packard HP1000 1000F > > What's the #...I can't find the auction. > -Bob > > > bbrown at harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper > Community College ## ## ## Supervisor of Operations > Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Alexandre Souza > Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 11:13 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Re: BLINKENLIGHTS! Rare Hewlett Packard HP1000 1000F > > I had a look at the auction, out of curiosity. > Even if you are not interested in HP stuff, read it ... > I had a few smiles and moments of recognition :-) ============ > > And a nice Escort Ghia MK3 on the background hehehhe > > From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Tue Feb 17 12:14:33 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 19:14:33 +0100 Subject: No adjective for this ebay item In-Reply-To: <200902171803.n1HI3DlW053904@keith.ezwind.net> References: <20560349.1234892799569.JavaMail.root@mswamui-billy.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <200902171803.n1HI3DlW053904@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <2E311D2F69874892939EF722BCAF8905@xp1800> He trying to sell this thing since oct. 2006 more then 20305 people looked at it. And there was a discusion about this Kaypro some time ago... > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Bob Bradlee > Verzonden: dinsdag 17 februari 2009 19:03 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: No adjective for this ebay item > > a 35 cents listing fee is a small price to pay to have your > ebay store browsed by someone like me, who sees a listing and > asks who is this guy? is he for real? > > A Kaypro for $35k is just off beat enough to sucker me into > taking a look. > How many others on this list, looked at his ebay store ? > > I expect the he is trolling for comments. > > The other Bob > > > On Tue, 17 Feb 2009 09:46:36 -0800 (GMT-08:00), > melamy at earthlink.net wrote: > > >unfortunately eBay only charges the guy $ 0.35 for the > listing... Maybe he is hoping for a miracle! > >best regards, Steve Thatcher > > >-----Original Message----- > >>From: David Griffith > >> > >>That guy has been trying to sell that thing at that price > for at least > >>a year. > >> > >>-- > >>David Griffith > > > > From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Feb 17 12:18:53 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 13:18:53 -0500 Subject: No adjective for this ebay item In-Reply-To: References: <000601c990be$01fec6b0$0301a8c0@evan> Message-ID: <200902171318.54043.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 17 February 2009 12:32:24 pm Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 12:12 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > On Tue, 17 Feb 2009, Evan Koblentz wrote: > >> Kaypro II. Buy it now price: $35,000. > >> > >> 300039229895 > >> > >> http://tinyurl.com/dykuue > > > > That guy has been trying to sell that thing at that price for at least a > > year. > > At that price, you only have to sell the one. > > -ethan Hey, I'll sell mine for only $30,000... :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From legalize at xmission.com Tue Feb 17 12:20:17 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 11:20:17 -0700 Subject: No adjective for this ebay item In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 17 Feb 2009 00:10:08 -0500. <000601c990be$01fec6b0$0301a8c0@evan> Message-ID: In article <000601c990be$01fec6b0$0301a8c0 at evan>, "Evan Koblentz" writes: > Kaypro II. Buy it now price: $35,000. ...but you can also make an offer. My feeling is that the insanely high B-I-N is so he can drum up an offer that is high without exceeding the B-I-N price. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From vern4wright at yahoo.com Tue Feb 17 12:24:42 2009 From: vern4wright at yahoo.com (Vernon Wright) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 10:24:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: No adjective for this ebay item In-Reply-To: <200902171318.54043.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <281743.95885.qm@web65516.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 2/17/09, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > From: Roy J. Tellason > Subject: Re: No adjective for this ebay item > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Tuesday, February 17, 2009, 10:18 AM > On Tuesday 17 February 2009 12:32:24 pm Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 12:12 PM, David Griffith > > wrote: > > > On Tue, 17 Feb 2009, Evan Koblentz wrote: > > >> Kaypro II. Buy it now price: $35,000. > > >> > > >> 300039229895 > > >> > > >> http://tinyurl.com/dykuue > > > > > > That guy has been trying to sell that thing at > that price for at least a > > > year. > > > > At that price, you only have to sell the one. > > > > -ethan > > Hey, I'll sell mine for only $30,000... :-) I'll beat you - $29,999 for mine!!! > -- > Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most > unrelenting -- and > ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter > that can > be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, > "The Puppet Masters" > - > Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society > ruled by lies. --James > M Dakin From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Tue Feb 17 12:29:17 2009 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 13:29:17 -0500 Subject: No adjective for this ebay item In-Reply-To: <281743.95885.qm@web65516.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <200902171318.54043.rtellason@verizon.net> <281743.95885.qm@web65516.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5f7d1b0e0902171029j5b05f5ddu67ae4dfb2b551d42@mail.gmail.com> So, he's hoping that, because it's part of some ostensibly rare "Programmer" set and it's a low serial number, it's worth a lot? It isn't even in collector's condition. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Feb 17 12:31:20 2009 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 10:31:20 -0800 Subject: BLINKENLIGHTS! Rare Hewlett Packard HP1000 1000F References: <993440.60502.qm@web37102.mail.mud.yahoo.com><015101c99123$19859ec0$d08f19bb@DeskJara><3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E033AA32D@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E033AA32E@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Message-ID: <499B0277.96F16868@cs.ubc.ca> Bob Brown wrote: > > I still don't see it...can you post the auction#? > thanks. http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BLINKENLIGHTS-Rare-Hewlett-Packard-HP1000-1000F_W0QQitemZ230323899849QQihZ013QQcategoryZ4193QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem or: 230323899849 Sold for 343 pounds. It was a second machine from what was pictured, one can only hope that the second machine was as well populated with boards as that pictured. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Feb 17 12:26:47 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 12:26:47 -0600 Subject: Awfully Quiet out There In-Reply-To: <5E418A1FD0C0430B9BF787B1E4DDBB7D@p4266> References: <5E418A1FD0C0430B9BF787B1E4DDBB7D@p4266> Message-ID: <499B0167.7020205@gmail.com> Martin Marshall wrote: > Anyone about? It's been very quiet since 2/14 - any list problems? Shhh, we're all hiding from Jay ;) Seriously though - list seemed to go down on the 14th but seems to be back up and running. I'd been seeing a bit of oddness for a few days before that (some messages not appearing, or replies that would insist there were non-ASCII chars in the original message) - I've still not worked out if that was down to list issues or some more local problem. cheers Jules From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Tue Feb 17 12:36:27 2009 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 13:36:27 -0500 Subject: No adjective for this ebay item In-Reply-To: <2E311D2F69874892939EF722BCAF8905@xp1800> Message-ID: <200902171836.n1HIaWhS056537@keith.ezwind.net> On Tue, 17 Feb 2009 19:14:33 +0100, Rik Bos wrote: >He trying to sell this thing since oct. 2006 more then 20305 people looked >at it. >And there was a discusion about this Kaypro some time ago... So, he has lurred about 20K people to look, for a total cost of about twenty dollars spread out over the years. If 1 in 4 went go on to look at his store, then his cost is about 10 cents per hundred viewers! even at a 1 in 10 a hundred viewers is still less than what Google costs. He is a power seller so he is doing an ongoing business based on those eyeballs of at least $1k or more per month to offset the ~$1.50 per month in listing fees to keep it going. What I want to see is the "Declined" offers! The other Bob. From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Feb 17 12:45:08 2009 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 12:45:08 -0600 Subject: Altos & M/PM manuals available In-Reply-To: <51ea77730902170951g7b9a01bex493c78d7baa98e1a@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730902170951g7b9a01bex493c78d7baa98e1a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730902171045i322f42e5q70a7055176c43dcb@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Feb 17, 2009 at 11:51 AM, Jason T wrote: > I have a large box of Altos materials here that I would like to find a > home for. About half of it is standard bound books, which will go The Altos manuals have found a home. Thanks to all! -j From legalize at xmission.com Tue Feb 17 12:49:11 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 11:49:11 -0700 Subject: Tektronix 4225 -- is it an X terminal? Message-ID: See ebay item # 360132413754 That listing just includes the base unit, but thankfully has closeup pictures of the connectors on the back. It looks like it takes AUI ethernet or RS-232 and outputs RGB video. Anyone familiar with these puppies? I've not seen one before. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From evan at snarc.net Tue Feb 17 13:05:06 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 14:05:06 -0500 Subject: No adjective for this ebay item In-Reply-To: <2E311D2F69874892939EF722BCAF8905@xp1800> Message-ID: <002a01c99132$a67cf850$0301a8c0@evan> >>> He trying to sell this thing since oct. 2006 more then 20305 people looked at it. And there was a discusion about this Kaypro some time ago... Oh. Sorry for being redundant. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Feb 17 13:44:32 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 13:44:32 -0600 Subject: Tektronix 4225 -- is it an X terminal? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <499B13A0.1070004@gmail.com> Richard wrote: > See ebay item # 360132413754 > > That listing just includes the base unit, but thankfully has closeup > pictures of the connectors on the back. > > It looks like it takes AUI ethernet or RS-232 and outputs RGB video. > > Anyone familiar with these puppies? I've not seen one before. Heck, that's interesting. I'll dig in my notes in a bit in case they shed any light, but some speculation follows... That case style remarkably like my XD88, only cut down in height. I wondered at first if it was indeed a complete UTek-capable UNIX box but intended to run an external disk (most of the XD88's case height is due to the full-height drives inside) - but the lack of a obvious disk port (it'd logically have a Centronics SCSI port where the "computer" label is) suggests that isn't the case. It could, I suppose, be designed to boot and run solely from an OS image on a remote system via the Ethernet port. It might also contain a HH hard drive inside; if the XD88 had HH drives the guts could probably just be squeezed into a case that size. The fact that it has a local floppy drive and RS232 ports suggests to me that it's more than a mere X term anyway (but then Tek did do some pretty complicated terminals back in the day) - plus my XD88 is circa 1988 and very soon after that slimline X terminals existed in abundance, so I'm not sure what this particular critter would have to offer if it's just a big X term with local floppy storage. Shame it's so far away or I think I'd be putting in my first ever EBay bid :-) I'd love to see an inside pic of it. cheers Jules From rborsuk at colourfull.com Tue Feb 17 14:46:18 2009 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 15:46:18 -0500 Subject: HP 1000 F for trade? Message-ID: All this talk about HP 1000 F reminded me that I have one of these beast that I need to get rid of. Anybody got anything good to trade? (Wang equipment would take precedence)(TRS-80 and CP/M machines are cool). Pics at: http://gallery.me.com/irisworld#100093 Rob ps. USA only please. Rob Borsuk email: rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations Web: http://www.colourfull.com From legalize at xmission.com Tue Feb 17 15:27:58 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 14:27:58 -0700 Subject: Fwd: [alt.sys.pdp8] LA-36 Free to a Good Home Message-ID: This message has been forwarded from Usenet. To reply to the original author, use the email address from the forwarded message. Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 11:00:28 -0600 Groups: alt.sys.pdp8 From: John Everett Org: at&t http://my.att.net/ Subject: LA-36 Free to a Good Home Id: <08rlp45lofocavjg9oumacf50dt428t6b9 at 4ax.com> ======== I have an LA-36 DECwriter that was working last time I plugged it in. It's free to the first person who wants to pick it up in the western suburbs of Chicago. Just email. -- jeverett3sbcglobalnet (John V. Everett) From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Feb 17 15:30:21 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon J. C. Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 21:30:21 +0000 Subject: No adjective for this ebay item In-Reply-To: <200902171836.n1HIaWhS056537@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200902171836.n1HIaWhS056537@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <1234906221.12674.3.camel@kusanagi> On Tue, 2009-02-17 at 13:36 -0500, Bob Bradlee wrote: > On Tue, 17 Feb 2009 19:14:33 +0100, Rik Bos wrote: > > >He trying to sell this thing since oct. 2006 more then 20305 people looked > >at it. > >And there was a discusion about this Kaypro some time ago... > > So, he has lurred about 20K people to look, for a total cost of about twenty dollars spread out over the > years. > > If 1 in 4 went go on to look at his store, then his cost is about 10 cents per hundred viewers! > even at a 1 in 10 a hundred viewers is still less than what Google costs. > He is a power seller so he is doing an ongoing business based on those eyeballs of at least $1k or more > per month to offset the ~$1.50 per month in listing fees to keep it going. > > What I want to see is the "Declined" offers! He's banned me from making offers, after I offered $100 and $105 for it. Gordon From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Feb 17 16:21:03 2009 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 22:21:03 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Awfully Quiet out There In-Reply-To: <5E418A1FD0C0430B9BF787B1E4DDBB7D@p4266> Message-ID: <713089.86935.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> It has been quiet, but I have used the chance to catch up on emails. I have missed the tech chat though. Posts did seem to end abruptly on the 14th so I checked the archive on Sunday incase I wasn't getting emails for some silly reason. The archive only went up to 14th (on sunday) and I just put it down to everyone being too busy with their hardware to post :) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Mon, 16/2/09, Martin Marshall wrote: From: Martin Marshall Subject: Awfully Quiet out There To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Monday, 16 February, 2009, 6:20 PM Anyone about? It's been very quiet since 2/14 - any list problems? Martin From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Feb 17 16:35:05 2009 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 17:35:05 -0500 Subject: No adjective for this ebay item In-Reply-To: <1234906221.12674.3.camel@kusanagi> References: <200902171836.n1HIaWhS056537@keith.ezwind.net> <1234906221.12674.3.camel@kusanagi> Message-ID: <200902171735.05964.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 17 February 2009, Gordon J. C. Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: > On Tue, 2009-02-17 at 13:36 -0500, Bob Bradlee wrote: > > On Tue, 17 Feb 2009 19:14:33 +0100, Rik Bos wrote: > > >He trying to sell this thing since oct. 2006 more then 20305 > > > people looked at it. > > >And there was a discusion about this Kaypro some time ago... > > > > So, he has lurred about 20K people to look, for a total cost of > > about twenty dollars spread out over the years. > > > > If 1 in 4 went go on to look at his store, then his cost is about > > 10 cents per hundred viewers! even at a 1 in 10 a hundred viewers > > is still less than what Google costs. He is a power seller so he is > > doing an ongoing business based on those eyeballs of at least $1k > > or more per month to offset the ~$1.50 per month in listing fees to > > keep it going. > > > > What I want to see is the "Declined" offers! > > He's banned me from making offers, after I offered $100 and $105 for > it. Hmm, I wonder what he'd do if a lot of people who didn't seem related, but maybe all read this mailing list, put a $1 "best offer" on it. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From halarewich at gmail.com Tue Feb 17 16:43:02 2009 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 14:43:02 -0800 Subject: No adjective for this ebay item In-Reply-To: <200902171735.05964.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200902171836.n1HIaWhS056537@keith.ezwind.net> <1234906221.12674.3.camel@kusanagi> <200902171735.05964.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <6d6501090902171443g5c15e7c3n18dbcff68da41a9@mail.gmail.com> I'm game :) On 2/17/09, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > On Tuesday 17 February 2009, Gordon J. C. Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: > > On Tue, 2009-02-17 at 13:36 -0500, Bob Bradlee wrote: > > > On Tue, 17 Feb 2009 19:14:33 +0100, Rik Bos wrote: > > > >He trying to sell this thing since oct. 2006 more then 20305 > > > > people looked at it. > > > >And there was a discusion about this Kaypro some time ago... > > > > > > So, he has lurred about 20K people to look, for a total cost of > > > about twenty dollars spread out over the years. > > > > > > If 1 in 4 went go on to look at his store, then his cost is about > > > 10 cents per hundred viewers! even at a 1 in 10 a hundred viewers > > > is still less than what Google costs. He is a power seller so he is > > > doing an ongoing business based on those eyeballs of at least $1k > > > or more per month to offset the ~$1.50 per month in listing fees to > > > keep it going. > > > > > > What I want to see is the "Declined" offers! > > > > He's banned me from making offers, after I offered $100 and $105 for > > it. > > Hmm, I wonder what he'd do if a lot of people who didn't seem related, > but maybe all read this mailing list, put a $1 "best offer" on it. > > Pat > -- > Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ > The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org > From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue Feb 17 17:33:12 2009 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 18:33:12 -0500 Subject: Wanted: Processor Technology GPM card... Message-ID: Reposting due to the resounding lack of response and the possibility that something went wrong with the list right after I posted the original... I can buy or trade but I would prefer to trade. I have a large collection of S-100 cards and some other goodies to work a trade with. If it has the CUTTER ROM, all the better. If not, I can burn a 2708 (and I'll probably post a "Wanted: CUTTER ROM dump" message). Thanks, Bill Sudbrink PS... To engender some discussion, does anyone on the list have an operating Processor Technology Subsystem B machine? From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Feb 17 19:15:42 2009 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 20:15:42 -0500 Subject: Saving TU-58 Tapes Message-ID: <499B613E.5030408@compsys.to> I just received a number of TU-58 tapes. Most seem to have VAX software. Is a list of the contents of such tapes available somewhere? I want to save the files before I use them for RT-11. I have seen such a collection of VAX software before and I presume that I am not the only person to save the files. So if this has already been done, it will not be necessary to repeat the exercise. I attempted to look at bitsavers, but there does not seem to be anything much there in the way of software for the VAX. I assume that since there are hobby licenses for the VAX that all of the software is also available. By the way, the dates on the files are 1983 to 1985. Some of the contents are: VAX/VMS 3.4 FORTRAN C PASCAL Are these tapes useful? How are the files saved? Can the files be easily saved using RT-11? What is the best media to save the files? Probably the only reasonable method with RT-11 is to save all 512 blocks of the TU-58 tape as an image so that a VAX/VMS system can easily ATTACH the file as a TU-58 tape drive under SIMH. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Feb 17 19:17:59 2009 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 20:17:59 -0500 Subject: Any have a CMD CQD-200/M manual? In-Reply-To: References: <1234551595.12192.159.camel@spasmo> <18837.55198.409588.10443@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <1234558746.12192.164.camel@spasmo> Message-ID: <499B61C7.3090005@compsys.to> >Zane H. Healy wrote: > >On Fri, 13 Feb 2009, Tobias Russell wrote: > >> Am I right in thinking I get use the SET command to build a map table so >> I can use the rest of the space? >> >> If so anyone know the commands I need to issue? > > You don't mention what version of RT-11 you're running, just how many > partitioins you can have will depend on the version. My guess is you're > limited to 8, as you need to be at 5.5 or higher to have more. > > I think this is right, my notes and systems are temporarily all in > storage. > :-( > > SET DU0: PORT=0, UNIT=0, PART=0 > SET DU1: PORT=0, UNIT=0, PART=1 > SET DU2: PORT=0, UNIT=0, PART=2 > SET DU3: PORT=0, UNIT=0, PART=3 The above SET commands require at least V05.03 of RT-11. Prior to V05.03 of RT-11, you can use only PART=0 since the SET commands are not supported. I assume that you are using at least V05.00 since you would not be able to even see DU0: otherwise. The above set commands assume that the the SCSI ID is zero, i.e. the physical drive is connected as unit 0. If you set the SCSI ID to a different value or you add other physical drives at other SCSI IDs, then adjust the UNIT=0 portion. RT-11 allows the SCSI ID to be a maximum of 255, although with the CQD 200/M, I expect that the maximum value you will be ever using is UNIT=6 with the host adapter using SCSI ID=7. The other additional commands are: SET DU4: PORT=0, UNIT=0, PART=4 SET DU5: PORT=0, UNIT=0, PART=5 SET DU6: PORT=0, UNIT=0, PART=6 SET DU7: PORT=0, UNIT=0, PART=7 As long as any given RT-11 partition is a data device, the actual partition can be a value from 0 to 255. This means that an 8 GigaByte hard drive with 256 RT-11 partitions can be easily accessed, although the only person who has (bragged) of that size of SCSI drive has been Tim Shoppa. Under RT-11, each DUn: is regarded as a different physical device even though they are all on the same physical disk drive. Since the block number is 16 bits in RT-11, the maximum block number is 65535 (although in most cases, the maximum block number that is actually used is 65534). Thus, the maximum size of an RT-11 device is 32 MegaBytes. Note that prior to V05.06 of RT-11, it is possible to software boot ONLY DU0: of the physical disk drive based on the above 8 SET commands. In general, for all versions of RT-11, for a hardware boot to work, PART=0 is essential and the command: SET DUn: PORT=0, UNIT=n, PART=0 must have both "n" values the same, i.e. the hardware boot code is able to read ONLY a specified UNIT number that is entered via DUn: while in RT-11, the UNIT=n must also be identical for the hardware boot to work. So you can hardware boot only PART=0 of each physical hard drive using RT-11 unless you are willing to modify the boot code. For V05.05 and later of RT-11, a SYSGEN is allowed which is able to specify the use of an extended MSCP device driver with up to 64 RT-11 partitions, i.e. from D00: to D77: where the unit number looks like two octal digits even though they are actually RAD50. If you have more questions, please ask. There is a serious bug in RT-11 associated with the extended MSCP device driver. Jerome Fine From frustum at pacbell.net Tue Feb 17 19:47:16 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 19:47:16 -0600 Subject: Wanted: Processor Technology GPM card... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <499B68A4.7070504@pacbell.net> Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Reposting due to the resounding lack of response and the > possibility that something went wrong with the list right > after I posted the original... > > I can buy or trade but I would prefer to trade. I have a large > collection of S-100 cards and some other goodies to work a trade > with. If it has the CUTTER ROM, all the better. If not, I can > burn a 2708 (and I'll probably post a "Wanted: CUTTER ROM dump" > message). > > Thanks, > Bill Sudbrink > > PS... To engender some discussion, does anyone on the list have > an operating Processor Technology Subsystem B machine? > Bill, I don't think I ever saw a GPM card in my years of Sol collecting. There might have been one on ebay once, but it is a vague memory. The appear to be exceedingly rare, which is probably the bigger reason why your inbox wasn't flooded with offers. ;-) As I recall, the GPM card was situated in the same address block as the NS disk controller, so you couldn't have both in a system without relocating one or the other. BTW, I thought the canonical GPM software was the ALS development firmware. From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Feb 17 19:45:34 2009 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 17:45:34 -0800 Subject: Saving TU-58 Tapes In-Reply-To: <499B613E.5030408@compsys.to> References: <499B613E.5030408@compsys.to> Message-ID: Unfortunately, the otherwise excellent SIMH simulators do not attach to any 'real' software other than ethernet. However, I've successfully attached to an emulated TU58 (on a separate computer, over a serial line) with E11. If I were doing this (and that's not out of the question, if you'd like), I would hook up the real TU58 and an emulated TU58 to an E11 emulator running RT11; initialize TU58 tape images using the TU58 emulator; and COPY/DEVICE. I've had good results doing this with disk images. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jerome H. Fine [jhfinedp3k at compsys.to] Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 5:15 PM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Saving TU-58 Tapes I just received a number of TU-58 tapes. Most seem to have VAX software. Is a list of the contents of such tapes available somewhere? I want to save the files before I use them for RT-11. I have seen such a collection of VAX software before and I presume that I am not the only person to save the files. So if this has already been done, it will not be necessary to repeat the exercise. I attempted to look at bitsavers, but there does not seem to be anything much there in the way of software for the VAX. I assume that since there are hobby licenses for the VAX that all of the software is also available. By the way, the dates on the files are 1983 to 1985. Some of the contents are: VAX/VMS 3.4 FORTRAN C PASCAL Are these tapes useful? How are the files saved? Can the files be easily saved using RT-11? What is the best media to save the files? Probably the only reasonable method with RT-11 is to save all 512 blocks of the TU-58 tape as an image so that a VAX/VMS system can easily ATTACH the file as a TU-58 tape drive under SIMH. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Tue Feb 17 21:01:03 2009 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 22:01:03 -0500 Subject: Wanted: Processor Technology GPM card... In-Reply-To: <499B68A4.7070504@pacbell.net> Message-ID: Jim Battle wrote: > > Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > Reposting due to the resounding lack of response and the > > possibility that something went wrong with the list right > > after I posted the original... > > > > I can buy or trade but I would prefer to trade. I have a large > > collection of S-100 cards and some other goodies to work a trade > > with. If it has the CUTTER ROM, all the better. If not, I can > > burn a 2708 (and I'll probably post a "Wanted: CUTTER ROM dump" > > message). > > > > Thanks, > > Bill Sudbrink > > > > PS... To engender some discussion, does anyone on the list have > > an operating Processor Technology Subsystem B machine? > > > > Bill, I don't think I ever saw a GPM card in my years of Sol collecting. > There might have been one on ebay once, but it is a vague memory. The > appear to be exceedingly rare, which is probably the bigger reason why > your inbox wasn't flooded with offers. ;-) Honestly, I was hoping that there was a spare one rattling around in the recently acquired Bob Stek collection and maybe the new owner might consider trading for a full set of Cromemco or Compupro cards. > As I recall, the GPM card was situated in the same address block as the > NS disk controller, so you couldn't have both in a system without > relocating one or the other. Based on my reading of the docs on Dave Dunfield's pages, it seems like it should end up looking just like a Sol with Cutter at C000 and 1K of RAM at C800. ALS-8 (or anything else in the other EPROM sockets if installed) does end up at higher addresses, but you can PHANTOM it out. I have everything else for a Subsystem B (now including a restored parallel ASCII keyboard attached to the 3P+S), except the GPM. My goal is to display the operating Subsystem B side-by-side with my Sol at VCF East this year, running the same software. Bill From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Feb 17 23:25:37 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 21:25:37 -0800 Subject: Sphere documentation Message-ID: <499B9BD1.5060900@bitsavers.org> Docs for the Sphere 300 are up now under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/sphere The details of the Sphere bankruptcy is in the programma document under newsletters. From g-wright at att.net Wed Feb 18 00:08:01 2009 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 06:08:01 +0000 Subject: Altos & M/PM manuals , Scanning In-Reply-To: <51ea77730902170951g7b9a01bex493c78d7baa98e1a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <021820090608.2143.499BA5C0000D28180000085F22230706129B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> -------------- Original message from Jason T : -------------- > I have a large box of Altos materials here that I would like to find a > home for. About half of it is standard bound books, which will go > first. The remainder is ring bound and I am going to attempt to scan Jason, This would be nice. There are a few who have these manuals but I have have not seen much that has be scanned and shared. I have 7 machines and only 1 manual for the 8000 series hardware ( early) I believe Don Maslin supplied it many years ago. - Jerry From vern4wright at yahoo.com Wed Feb 18 00:40:18 2009 From: vern4wright at yahoo.com (Vernon Wright) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 22:40:18 -0800 (PST) Subject: List down - transcript of my test on the 15th - Feb archive afu on 15th Message-ID: <402097.48671.qm@web65501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Returned mail: see transcript for details Sunday, February 15, 2009 4:37 PM From: "Mail Delivery Subsystem" Add sender to Contacts To: vern4wright at yahoo.com Message contains attachments Message001.txt (375b), Is ClassicCmp down?.eml (2KB) The original message was received at Sun, 15 Feb 2009 18:37:40 -0600 (CST) from keith.ezwind.net [209.145.140.15] ----- The following addresses had permanent fatal errors ----- "|/usr/local/mailman/mail/mailman admin cctalk" (reason: 1) (expanded from: ) ----- Transcript of session follows ----- Traceback (most recent call last): Logging error: Traceback (most recent call last): File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Logging/Logger.py", line 91, in write f.write(msg) File "/usr/local/lib/python2.3/codecs.py", line 400, in write return self.writer.write(data) File "/usr/local/lib/python2.3/codecs.py", line 179, in write self.stream.write(data) IOError: [Errno 28] No space left on device Original log message: [Errno 28] No space left on device File "/usr/local/mailman/scripts/admin", line 61, in ? Logging error: Traceback (most recent call last): File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Logging/Logger.py", line 91, in write f.write(msg) File "/usr/local/lib/python2.3/codecs.py", line 400, in write return self.writer.write(data) File "/usr/local/lib/python2.3/codecs.py", line 179, in write self.stream.write(data) IOError: [Errno 28] No space left on device Original log message: [Errno 28] No space left on device main() Logging error: Traceback (most recent call last): File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Logging/Logger.py", line 91, in write f.write(msg) File "/usr/local/lib/python2.3/codecs.py", line 400, in write return self.writer.write(data) File "/usr/local/lib/python2.3/codecs.py", line 179, in write self.stream.write(data) IOError: [Errno 28] No space left on device Original log message: [Errno 28] No space left on device File "/usr/local/mailman/scripts/admin", line 56, in main Logging error: Traceback (most recent call last): File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Logging/Logger.py", line 91, in write f.write(msg) File "/usr/local/lib/python2.3/codecs.py", line 400, in write return self.writer.write(data) File "/usr/local/lib/python2.3/codecs.py", line 179, in write self.stream.write(data) IOError: [Errno 28] No space left on device Original log message: [Errno 28] No space left on device bounceq.enqueue(sys.stdin.read(), listname=listname, _plaintext=1) Logging error: Traceback (most recent call last): File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Logging/Logger.py", line 91, in write f.write(msg) File "/usr/local/lib/python2.3/codecs.py", line 400, in write return self.writer.write(data) File "/usr/local/lib/python2.3/codecs.py", line 179, in write self.stream.write(data) IOError: [Errno 28] No space left on device Original log message: [Errno 28] No space left on device File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Queue/Switchboard.py", line 130, in enqueue Logging error: Traceback (most recent call last): File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Logging/Logger.py", line 91, in write f.write(msg) File "/usr/local/lib/python2.3/codecs.py", line 400, in write return self.writer.write(data) File "/usr/local/lib/python2.3/codecs.py", line 179, in write self.stream.write(data) IOError: [Errno 28] No space left on device Original log message: [Errno 28] No space left on device fp.flush() Logging error: Traceback (most recent call last): File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Logging/Logger.py", line 91, in write f.write(msg) File "/usr/local/lib/python2.3/codecs.py", line 400, in write return self.writer.write(data) File "/usr/local/lib/python2.3/codecs.py", line 179, in write self.stream.write(data) IOError: [Errno 28] No space left on device Original log message: [Errno 28] No space left on device IOError: [Errno 28] No space left on device Logging error: Traceback (most recent call last): File "/usr/local/mailman/Mailman/Logging/Logger.py", line 91, in write f.write(msg) File "/usr/local/lib/python2.3/codecs.py", line 400, in write return self.writer.write(data) File "/usr/local/lib/python2.3/codecs.py", line 179, in write self.stream.write(data) IOError: [Errno 28] No space left on device Original log message: [Errno 28] No space left on device 554 5.3.0 unknown mailer error 1 Forwarded Message: Is ClassicCmp down? Is ClassicCmp down? Sunday, February 15, 2009 4:37 PM From: "Vernon Wright" To: cctalk-admin at classiccmp.org Is ClassicCmp down? The last message I've received was 14 Feb 2009 timed 4:02 am, regarding the Nicolet 660 by Ian Primus, I think. Of course, if it is down, I won't get a reply. But I should get a bounce. Vern Wright From g-wright at att.net Wed Feb 18 01:15:15 2009 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 07:15:15 +0000 Subject: Altos 8000-2 booting, SD> DD (CPM) Message-ID: <021820090715.14868.499BB582000969A600003A1422243323629B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> as long as I'm on the Altos thread. I'm trying to make some disks for another list member for the 8000-8200 Z-80 based machines. Both of my systems have floppy disk boot or write problems. So I decided to look into the easier machine which it a 8000-2. basic Z-80 , 1791 FDC and 2, 8" SSDD floppies. The machine will boot a single density CPM disk, read and format a SD disk, but dies if a DD disk is either inserted for boot or the format program on the SD disk is told to format a DD disk. These all have SD Boot tracks, then have to switch to DD, if formated in DD. I have the wiring diagrams and there is a "EN DD" coming off the PIO chip and goes to the 1791 chip, that never changes state. I would believe it would have a floppy density code on the 1st track to tell the OS what the remaining tracks are ??? (just a guess) I know the disks are OK, they can be read in another machine. ( just not copied.). i have looked at the data lines on the PIO chip and have replaced it just in case. I have scoped the started up circuit which also has the "EN DD" tied to it. (input) The software can only be copied by another Altos due to the disk layout. The boot ROM could be damaged?? but not knowing what it should read, its hard to guess. Can't be much there just a 2708. Anyone have a 8200-2 that can read the ROM on, or any ideas. The manual is on Bitsavers under Altos, ACS8000 users manual. The motherboard is a 8100 series (double density) Has 8000 SD, 8100 DD and 8200 in the manual. - jerry Jerry Wright g-wright at att.net From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Feb 16 19:07:57 2009 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 16 Feb 2009 17:07:57 -0800 Subject: Alive? In-Reply-To: <49987FD3.80806@compsys.to> References: <49987FD3.80806@compsys.to> Message-ID: At 3:49 PM -0500 2/15/09, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >Is classiccmp alive? Interesting, it appears that it isn't, the last message I received was at 4:02am on Saturday. No news no PDP-11 matters, I've not had time to make enquiries. House hunting is slow going, we've been waiting for nearly a month to hear what the bank that owns the house we currently have an offer in on says. Unfortunately the only houses we can afford are ones that the banks own, and that takes forever. The one house we had our offer accepted on failed the inspection miserably. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From harten at injectstar.de Tue Feb 17 03:20:45 2009 From: harten at injectstar.de (Harten) Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 10:20:45 +0100 Subject: ASR33 as storage medium on PDP 11/05 In-Reply-To: <49930A69.504@philpem.me.uk> References: <499144EE.3020002@mail.msu.edu> <499158D2.2020301@philpem.me.uk> <49924848.1080601@mail.msu.edu> <49930A69.504@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: Hi to all! My PDP 11/05 came, when it was first sold, with an ASR 33 as the only console and storage medium. Later it was modified to a system with RX02 Floppy and one VT Terminal (connected to the 20mA loop but with 2400 baud instead of 110 as for the ASR). Now i would like to reconnect the ASR (or another papertape reader/puncher) to the system without having to screw up the CPU to reduce the speed of the serial line interface. I don't want the console-output to be printed on the ASR but reading/punching papertapes would be fine. As i remember DEC was selling its high speed reader ( PC11 ?) but only for fanfold tapes. Maybe this can archived by adding one extra interface to the unibus and a piece of software. I'm not sure. The machine runs RT-11 V4.0 Regards Axel Harten. -- From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Wed Feb 18 06:53:49 2009 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 13:53:49 +0100 Subject: ASR33 as storage medium on PDP 11/05 In-Reply-To: References: <499144EE.3020002@mail.msu.edu> <499158D2.2020301@philpem.me.uk> <49924848.1080601@mail.msu.edu> <49930A69.504@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: > Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2009 10:20:45 +0100 > From: harten at injectstar.de > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > CC: > Subject: ASR33 as storage medium on PDP 11/05 > > Hi to all! > > My PDP 11/05 came, when it was first sold, with an ASR 33 > as the only console and storage medium. > Later it was modified to a system with RX02 Floppy and > one VT Terminal (connected to the 20mA loop but with 2400 > baud instead of 110 as for the ASR). > > Now i would like to reconnect the ASR (or another papertape > reader/puncher) to the system without having to screw up > the CPU to reduce the speed of the serial line interface. > I don't want the console-output to be printed on the ASR > but reading/punching papertapes would be fine. > > As i remember DEC was selling its high speed reader > ( PC11 ?) but only for fanfold tapes. > > Maybe this can archived by adding one extra interface to > the unibus and a piece of software. > I'm not sure. The machine runs RT-11 V4.0 > > Regards > > Axel Harten. Maybe I am overlooking something, but is a simple DL11 interface not all that you need to connect a reader and puncher? The PC11 interface (M7810) connects to the PC05, but if you have a "standard" reader / puncher they can have an serial interface (RS-whatever or current loop). And in that case, you can connect to the the 11/05 using a simple UNIBUS async serial interface module like the M7856. You might want to disable the line time clock on the added SLU. If the reader/pucher has a (8-bit) parallel interface it also has a few handshake signals. It is fairly straight-forward to make a parallel <-> serial interface. With a bit more effort you can control the handshake lines to control the stepping speed of the papertape movement. Less effort will cause the tape to move at the reader/puncher speed, which might not match to a standard baudrate. With an SLU, no special software (drivers) are needed, unless you want more control than simple start at begin of tape and stop when tape is (completely) read (or all data punched). Hope this helps (and is correct) - Henk, PA8PDP From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Feb 18 08:01:32 2009 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 06:01:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: Alive? In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Feb 16, 9 05:07:57 pm" Message-ID: <200902181401.n1IE1WqW015402@floodgap.com> > > Is classiccmp alive? > > Interesting, it appears that it isn't, the last message I received > was at 4:02am on Saturday. While you're dumpster diving I'll be still alive still alive still alive -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The cost of living has not adversely affected its popularity. -------------- From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Feb 18 08:30:07 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 08:30:07 -0600 Subject: Tektronix 4225 -- is it an X terminal? In-Reply-To: <499B13A0.1070004@gmail.com> References: <499B13A0.1070004@gmail.com> Message-ID: <499C1B6F.6070207@gmail.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > Richard wrote: >> See ebay item # 360132413754 >> >> That listing just includes the base unit, but thankfully has closeup >> pictures of the connectors on the back. >> >> It looks like it takes AUI ethernet or RS-232 and outputs RGB video. >> >> Anyone familiar with these puppies? I've not seen one before. > > Heck, that's interesting. I'll dig in my notes in a bit in case they > shed any light Hmm, I don't seem to have anything helpful, sadly. One of my XD88-related scans mentions "4300 and 4200 series workstations and netstations", but all that implies is that the 4225 was earlier. Reading between the lines, it seems that the 4225 runs on something other than an m88k. Some Google results seem to imply that the 4225 is "just a graphical terminal", and not even a full-fledged X terminal at that. I don't think there's mention of a keyboard in that auction is there? That might be problematic - although the socket's the same as the XD88 family one (and, I think, some of Tek's earlier terminals) so it may be that there was some commonality across models. All this makes me realise just how much Tek knowledge seems to be a lost - I mean, the earlier Tek terminals seem to be pretty well understood, but then most of the hardware, software and docs from the later years has just vanished. cheers J. From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Feb 18 09:09:25 2009 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 09:09:25 -0600 Subject: Altos & M/PM manuals , Scanning In-Reply-To: <021820090608.2143.499BA5C0000D28180000085F22230706129B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> References: <51ea77730902170951g7b9a01bex493c78d7baa98e1a@mail.gmail.com> <021820090608.2143.499BA5C0000D28180000085F22230706129B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> Message-ID: <51ea77730902180709k78f6e13bybee6fb80bbf6636d@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 12:08 AM, wrote: > This would be nice. There are a few who have these manuals but I have > have not seen much that has be scanned and shared. I have 7 machines > and only 1 manual for the 8000 series hardware ( early) I believe Don Maslin > supplied it many years ago. I have most of the scannable stuff up here now, including the Altos 8000 Users Guide: http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing%2FAltos/Manuals All I have left to do now are the schematics and a lot of marketing material, which I hope to do over the next few days. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Feb 18 09:35:59 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 07:35:59 -0800 Subject: Altos 8000-2 booting, SD> DD (CPM) In-Reply-To: <021820090715.14868.499BB582000969A600003A1422243323629B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> References: <021820090715.14868.499BB582000969A600003A1422243323629B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> Message-ID: <499BBA5F.10836.28C0F1CD@cclist.sydex.com> On 18 Feb 2009 at 7:15, g-wright at att.net wrote: > The software can only be copied by another Altos due to the > disk layout. Well, that's simply not true, particularly for a system that uses a garden-variety WD 1791 controller. A PC set up appropriately can copy these disks, as well as many other non-PC systems with 8" drives. Thanks, Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Feb 18 10:08:54 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 08:08:54 -0800 Subject: Tektronix 4225 -- is it an X terminal? Message-ID: <499C3296.1040307@bitsavers.org> > All this makes me realise just how much Tek knowledge seems to be a lost - I > mean, the earlier Tek terminals seem to be pretty well understood, but then > most of the hardware, software and docs from the later years has just vanished. It would be nice to try to get this documentation and software archived, if it can still be found. There were a couple of generations of workstations, including the obscure AI workstation that supported Lisp and Smalltalk. A friend of mine worked on the 32000 based system before moving down to the valley. The development systems that had their own OS, then a port of Unix called Tnix. And, all the DC300 based 405x software.. From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Wed Feb 18 11:01:22 2009 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 09:01:22 -0800 Subject: Tektronix 4225 -- is it an X terminal? In-Reply-To: <499C3296.1040307@bitsavers.org> References: <499C3296.1040307@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <499C3EE2.4040704@sbcglobal.net> Al, Don't forget I have a whole bunch of the 405x docs and tapes (and disks) available for you to scan anytime. See: http://www.dvq.com/tek/or/manuals.JPG Bob Al Kossow wrote: > > All this makes me realise just how much Tek knowledge seems to be a > lost - I > > mean, the earlier Tek terminals seem to be pretty well understood, > but then > > most of the hardware, software and docs from the later years has > just vanished. > > It would be nice to try to get this documentation and software > archived, if it > can still be found. There were a couple of generations of > workstations, including > the obscure AI workstation that supported Lisp and Smalltalk. A friend > of mine > worked on the 32000 based system before moving down to the valley. > > The development systems that had their own OS, then a port of Unix > called Tnix. > > And, all the DC300 based 405x software.. > > > > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 18 13:12:38 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 19:12:38 +0000 (GMT) Subject: ASR33 as storage medium on PDP 11/05 In-Reply-To: from "Harten" at Feb 17, 9 10:20:45 am Message-ID: > As i remember DEC was selling its high speed reader ( PC11 ?) but only > for fanfold tapes. There were also 3rd-party paper tape punch/reader systems that were software-compatible with the PC11. I have an interface card in my 11/45 that talks to a Trend HSR700 (700 cps) reader and a Facit 4070 (75 cps) punch. I am pretty sure Facit sold a Unibus interace card for their reader too. > > Maybe this can archived by adding one extra interface to the unibus > and a piece of software. AFAIK there is no reason why you can't add another DL11 serial interface (with a different Unius address and Interrupt vector) to link to your ASR33. I am not sure about the driver -- the DL11 is somewhat register-compatible with the PC11, so it might be a very simple modification of the PC: driver. -tony From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Feb 18 15:50:10 2009 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 13:50:10 -0800 Subject: Saving TU-58 Tapes In-Reply-To: References: <499B613E.5030408@compsys.to> Message-ID: Let me say in addition that saving early versions of operating systems like VMS is a good thing. (As a 36-bit bigot, I can't believe I just wrote that!) Please, PLEASE let someone image those tapes before you re-use them! (Ian, my cow-orker, is a good candidate for the job.) Rich Alderson Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ian King Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 5:46 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Saving TU-58 Tapes Unfortunately, the otherwise excellent SIMH simulators do not attach to any 'real' software other than ethernet. However, I've successfully attached to an emulated TU58 (on a separate computer, over a serial line) with E11. If I were doing this (and that's not out of the question, if you'd like), I would hook up the real TU58 and an emulated TU58 to an E11 emulator running RT11; initialize TU58 tape images using the TU58 emulator; and COPY/DEVICE. I've had good results doing this with disk images. -- Ian ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jerome H. Fine [jhfinedp3k at compsys.to] Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 5:15 PM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Saving TU-58 Tapes I just received a number of TU-58 tapes. Most seem to have VAX software. Is a list of the contents of such tapes available somewhere? I want to save the files before I use them for RT-11. I have seen such a collection of VAX software before and I presume that I am not the only person to save the files. So if this has already been done, it will not be necessary to repeat the exercise. I attempted to look at bitsavers, but there does not seem to be anything much there in the way of software for the VAX. I assume that since there are hobby licenses for the VAX that all of the software is also available. By the way, the dates on the files are 1983 to 1985. Some of the contents are: VAX/VMS 3.4 FORTRAN C PASCAL Are these tapes useful? How are the files saved? Can the files be easily saved using RT-11? What is the best media to save the files? Probably the only reasonable method with RT-11 is to save all 512 blocks of the TU-58 tape as an image so that a VAX/VMS system can easily ATTACH the file as a TU-58 tape drive under SIMH. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Wed Feb 18 16:03:39 2009 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 17:03:39 -0500 Subject: Wanted: Processor Technology GPM card... In-Reply-To: <499B68A4.7070504@pacbell.net> Message-ID: Jim Battle wrote: > Bill, I don't think I ever saw a GPM card in my years of Sol collecting. > There might have been one on ebay once, but it is a vague memory. The > appear to be exceedingly rare, which is probably the bigger reason why > your inbox wasn't flooded with offers. ;-) > I just discovered that the Computer History Museum has one: http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/accession/X2341.2002 I wonder if I could at least get a Cutter dump from them. From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Wed Feb 18 16:17:40 2009 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 14:17:40 -0800 Subject: 8088 vs. 80c88 Message-ID: <000701c99216$b6b7e290$0201a8c0@hal9000> Intel does some squirrelly crap but I can assure you that unless it says 80C88 it is NMOS ( the -2 version of the 8088 is Enhanced NMOS or HMOS, but still not CMOS ). CMOS is not necessarily slow either, but at higher frequencies it looses it's low power advantage. We used SOS ( Silicon On Sapphire ) 1802s on spacecraft because of the low power, and the SOS makes it much less static sensitive and Radiation Hardened. Intel screwed us when they stepped the 8031 to CMOS ( 80C31 ) as they forgot to mention the multiple pages of errata of things that didn't work right, like Power on Reset and Interrupts..... Best regards, Steven ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris M" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 8:10 AM Subject: Re: 8088 vs. 80c88 regardless, and be sure I am no expert on semiconductor manufacturing, I'd be surprised to find out that all 8088's were CMOS after a certain date. The 80c88's were used mostly in small laptops, no? (small being anything smaller then that Zenith big honker, w/the shocking blue display. It used a *real* 8088 IINM). A CMOS version would be slower and more prone to damage from static electricity. And it would require less power. Off the top of my head I can't think of any desktops that used them, but I may have actually ran into 1 or 2 in my travels. But I am glad you managed to answer your own question Jimbo :) --- On Thu, 2/12/09, Jim Leonard wrote: From: Jim Leonard Subject: Re: 8088 vs. 80c88 To: General at mail.mobygames.com, "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Date: Thursday, February 12, 2009, 2:49 PM Jim Leonard wrote: > So a simple routine to try to identify the 8088 vs. the 80c88 would look something like: > > mov cx,2 ; test if following instruction will be > ; repeated twice. > db 0F3h,26h,0ACh ; rep es: lodsb > jcxz Yes ; intel non-CMOS chips do not care of rep > jmp Nope ; before segment prefix override, NEC and > ; CMOS-tech ones does. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Feb 18 16:40:22 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 14:40:22 -0800 Subject: GPM card Message-ID: <499C8E56.1030906@bitsavers.org> > I wonder if I could at least get a Cutter dump from them. Do you know what the rom type is? From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Wed Feb 18 16:47:14 2009 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 17:47:14 -0500 Subject: GPM card In-Reply-To: <499C8E56.1030906@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Al Kossow wrote: > > > I wonder if I could at least get a Cutter dump from them. > > Do you know what the rom type is? > The Proc Tech documentation says it is a 9216B (2K x 8) ROM. From legalize at xmission.com Wed Feb 18 17:36:31 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 16:36:31 -0700 Subject: Tektronix 4225 -- is it an X terminal? In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 18 Feb 2009 09:01:22 -0800. <499C3EE2.4040704@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: In article <499C3EE2.4040704 at sbcglobal.net>, Bob Rosenbloom writes: > http://www.dvq.com/tek/or/manuals.JPG Yowza! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ragooman at comcast.net Wed Feb 18 18:08:21 2009 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 19:08:21 -0500 Subject: Wanted: Processor Technology GPM card... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <499CA2F5.6090204@comcast.net> Bill, Check with Bill Degnan, he has the Cutter Rom but I'm not sure if he has it dumped into a hex file. I'm planning to stop by his place next month and get a copy too :) I have the Solos Rom which I still have to dump into a file. I like to ask you more later about what S-100 cards you have. =Dan [ = http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Jim Battle wrote: > >> Bill, I don't think I ever saw a GPM card in my years of Sol collecting. >> There might have been one on ebay once, but it is a vague memory. The >> appear to be exceedingly rare, which is probably the bigger reason why >> your inbox wasn't flooded with offers. ;-) >> >> > > I just discovered that the Computer History Museum has one: > > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/accession/X2341.2002 > > I wonder if I could at least get a Cutter dump from them. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.237 / Virus Database: 270.10.25/1958 - Release Date: 02/18/09 08:57:00 > > From frustum at pacbell.net Wed Feb 18 18:17:32 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 18:17:32 -0600 Subject: Wanted: Processor Technology GPM card... In-Reply-To: <499CA2F5.6090204@comcast.net> References: <499CA2F5.6090204@comcast.net> Message-ID: <499CA51C.50901@pacbell.net> Dan Roganti wrote: > Bill, > > Check with Bill Degnan, he has the Cutter Rom but I'm not sure if he has > it dumped into a hex file. > I'm planning to stop by his place next month and get a copy too :) > I have the Solos Rom which I still have to dump into a file. > I like to ask you more later about what S-100 cards you have. The CUTER and SOLOS ROM images and sources are at http://www.sol20.org/personality.html Because the source is there, it would be simple to convert it for whatever particular addresses and ports you might chose to use instead. From ragooman at comcast.net Wed Feb 18 19:52:29 2009 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 20:52:29 -0500 Subject: Wanted: Processor Technology GPM card... In-Reply-To: <499CA51C.50901@pacbell.net> References: <499CA2F5.6090204@comcast.net> <499CA51C.50901@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <499CBB5D.2060507@comcast.net> Jim Battle wrote: > Dan Roganti wrote: >> Bill, >> >> Check with Bill Degnan, he has the Cutter Rom but I'm not sure if he >> has it dumped into a hex file. >> I'm planning to stop by his place next month and get a copy too :) >> I have the Solos Rom which I still have to dump into a file. >> I like to ask you more later about what S-100 cards you have. > > The CUTER and SOLOS ROM images and sources are at > > http://www.sol20.org/personality.html > > Because the source is there, it would be simple to convert it for > whatever particular addresses and ports you might chose to use instead. > Jim, I remember your website, but I overlooked that page. I hope this year I can revive my Sol20. Thanks for the reminder ! =Dan -- [ = http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] From ragooman at comcast.net Wed Feb 18 22:02:33 2009 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 23:02:33 -0500 Subject: GPM card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <499CD9D9.4000301@comcast.net> Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Al Kossow wrote: > >> > I wonder if I could at least get a Cutter dump from them. >> >> Do you know what the rom type is? >> > > The Proc Tech documentation says it is a 9216B (2K x 8) ROM. > Bill, FYI, in case you want to burn another eprom, the 9216 Rom which the circuit is wired for, isn't the same pinout as a 2716/2516--a few of the pins are swapped between the two (and the TI 2716 version is also diff from the others). =Dan [ = http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] From legalize at xmission.com Wed Feb 18 22:08:25 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 21:08:25 -0700 Subject: Big Mouth Buttars Message-ID: Go over to sltrib.com and vote this article up! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From slawmaster at gmail.com Wed Feb 18 22:12:07 2009 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 23:12:07 -0500 Subject: Big Mouth Buttars In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7d3530220902182012j7087904bh35bf0671bb7ac895@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Feb 18, 2009 at 11:08 PM, Richard wrote: > Go over to sltrib.com and vote this article up! > > > > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > > Legalize Adulthood! > Please, let me keep my only politics-free zone on the Internet! John -- "I've tried programming Ruby on Rails, following TechCrunch in my RSS reader, and drinking absinthe. It doesn't work. I'm going back to C, Hunter S. Thompson, and cheap whiskey." -- Ted Dziuba From legalize at xmission.com Wed Feb 18 22:18:06 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 21:18:06 -0700 Subject: Big Mouth Buttars In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 18 Feb 2009 21:08:25 -0700. Message-ID: Oops, sorry guys, this got send to the wrong list.. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Feb 18 22:19:34 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 18 Feb 2009 21:19:34 -0700 Subject: Big Mouth Buttars In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 18 Feb 2009 23:12:07 -0500. <7d3530220902182012j7087904bh35bf0671bb7ac895@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <7d3530220902182012j7087904bh35bf0671bb7ac895 at mail.gmail.com>, John Floren writes: > Please, let me keep my only politics-free zone on the Internet! Sorry, my mistake, please just delete and move on. My fingers typed the wrong list alias from my address book. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From harten at injectstar.de Thu Feb 19 01:15:35 2009 From: harten at injectstar.de (Harten) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 08:15:35 +0100 Subject: ASR33 as storage medium on PDP 11/05 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <202ff02f50.harten@injectstar.de> In message you wrote: > > As i remember DEC was selling its high speed reader ( PC11 ?) but only > > for fanfold tapes. > > There were also 3rd-party paper tape punch/reader systems that were > software-compatible with the PC11. I have an interface card in my 11/45 > that talks to a Trend HSR700 (700 cps) reader and a Facit 4070 (75 cps) > punch. I am pretty sure Facit sold a Unibus interace card for their > reader too. > > > > > Maybe this can archived by adding one extra interface to the unibus > > and a piece of software. > > AFAIK there is no reason why you can't add another DL11 serial interface > (with a different Unius address and Interrupt vector) to link to your > ASR33. I am not sure about the driver -- the DL11 is somewhat > register-compatible with the PC11, so it might be a very simple > modification of the PC: driver. > > -tony > Adding another DL11 will not be a problem for me. I have already done so for the TU58 emulator. Unfortunately I have no experience in modifying a RT-11 PC11 driver. Axel -- From jgessling at yahoo.com Thu Feb 19 04:44:34 2009 From: jgessling at yahoo.com (James Gessling) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 02:44:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Heathkit ET-3400 Epay $10 Message-ID: <250517.47857.qm@web31909.mail.mud.yahoo.com> The display doesn't show "CPU UP" (my memory may vary) so it's got some problem. Up to $15 now. Since you made me look around, I noticed there's a google group for this item. http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ET-3400/ Regards, Jim From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Feb 19 12:52:10 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 13:52:10 -0500 Subject: Heathkit ET-3400 Epay $10 In-Reply-To: <250517.47857.qm@web31909.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <250517.47857.qm@web31909.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200902191352.10868.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 19 February 2009 05:44:34 am James Gessling wrote: > The display doesn't show "CPU UP" (my memory may vary) > so it's got some problem. Up to $15 now. I spent $20 for mine, which worked at that time (and still does :-). > Since you made me look around, I noticed there's a google group > for this item. > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ET-3400/ A yahoo group, not google, but that's cool. I just joined, and am learning a bit already. I had no idea that the accessory adapter shown on the group's home page even existed, for example. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Thu Feb 19 14:13:29 2009 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 21:13:29 +0100 Subject: Canon LPB-10 info sought. Message-ID: <499DBD69.1030100@bluewin.ch> I am looking for info on this very early (1979) laserprinter. In particular I need to know the electrical and software interface. Jos From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Feb 18 19:23:37 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 01:23:37 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Canon LPB-10 info sought. In-Reply-To: <499DBD69.1030100@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel" at Feb 19, 9 09:13:29 pm Message-ID: > > I am looking for info on this very early (1979) laserprinter. > In particular I need to know the electrical and software interface. I have an idea that at least one version had a very low-level interface. No internal formatter, there were signals on the interface to turn the laser on/off, a return signal to indicate when the beam was staring a scan across the drum, and so on. Somewhat similar to the CX-VDO interface. What is the connector on your printer. I think the low-level interface used a 50 way Microribbon connector. -tony From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Thu Feb 19 15:00:51 2009 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 16:00:51 -0500 Subject: Canon LPB-10 info sought. References: <499DBD69.1030100@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <18845.51331.527400.191357@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> >>>>> "Tony" == Tony Duell writes: >> I am looking for info on this very early (1979) laserprinter. In >> particular I need to know the electrical and software interface. Tony> I have an idea that at least one version had a very low-level Tony> interface. No internal formatter, there were signals on the Tony> interface to turn the laser on/off, a return signal to indicate Tony> when the beam was staring a scan across the drum, and so Tony> on. Somewhat similar to the CX-VDO interface. Tony> What is the connector on your printer. I think the low-level Tony> interface used a 50 way Microribbon connector. Not a laser printer but similar... I worked with a Versatec electrostatic printer (100 dpi or so) in 1976. It used a simple bitmap interface, you'd just feed it pixels one scan line at a time. It was hooked up to a Cyber 73. paul From cclist at sydex.com Thu Feb 19 15:30:46 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 13:30:46 -0800 Subject: Canon LPB-10 info sought. In-Reply-To: References: <499DBD69.1030100@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel" at Feb 19, 9 09:13:29 pm, Message-ID: <499D5F06.31743.2F2C10E6@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Feb 2009 at 1:23, Tony Duell wrote: > I have an idea that at least one version had a very low-level interface. > No internal formatter, there were signals on the interface to turn the > laser on/off, a return signal to indicate when the beam was staring a > scan across the drum, and so on. Somewhat similar to the CX-VDO interface. > > What is the connector on your printer. I think the low-level interface > used a 50 way Microribbon connector. Didn't the Atari ST have a similarly unintelligent laser printer? Cheers, Chuck From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Thu Feb 19 15:43:54 2009 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 22:43:54 +0100 Subject: Canon LPB-10 info sought. In-Reply-To: <18845.51331.527400.191357@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> References: <499DBD69.1030100@bluewin.ch> <18845.51331.527400.191357@pkoning-laptop.equallogic.com> Message-ID: <499DD29A.8080101@bluewin.ch> Paul Koning wrote: >>>>>> "Tony" == Tony Duell writes: > > >> I am looking for info on this very early (1979) laserprinter. In > >> particular I need to know the electrical and software interface. > > Tony> I have an idea that at least one version had a very low-level > Tony> interface. No internal formatter, there were signals on the > Tony> interface to turn the laser on/off, a return signal to indicate > Tony> when the beam was staring a scan across the drum, and so > Tony> on. Somewhat similar to the CX-VDO interface. > > Tony> What is the connector on your printer. No idea. I only know that this particular printer was used on the Lilith. I do not have the hardware used to connect the printer. Target is to add LPB-10 emulation to my Lilith emulator. Jos From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Feb 19 16:18:19 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 14:18:19 -0800 Subject: Canon LPB-10 info sought. Message-ID: <499DDAAB.7090909@bitsavers.org> > I am looking for info on this very early (1979) laserprinter. I should have docs. Will pull them out of storage and try to get it scanned for you. The earliest Imagen printers used this engine. It was a beast.. From bshannon at tiac.net Thu Feb 19 16:42:53 2009 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 17:42:53 -0500 Subject: HP 1000 F for trade? References: Message-ID: <2C194F4EFBD04B6F8576C310A906D125@screamer> I would be very interested in the 2117F, please contact me off list at bshannon at tiac.net or SmallBrainsLabs at comcast.net. I think I can offer some very interesting trade items! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Borsuk" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, February 17, 2009 3:46 PM Subject: HP 1000 F for trade? > All this talk about HP 1000 F reminded me that I have one of these beast > that I need to get rid of. > Anybody got anything good to trade? (Wang equipment would take > precedence)(TRS-80 and CP/M machines are cool). > > Pics at: > http://gallery.me.com/irisworld#100093 > > Rob > > ps. USA only please. > > > Rob Borsuk > email: rborsuk at colourfull.com > Colourfull Creations > Web: http://www.colourfull.com > > From spc at conman.org Thu Feb 19 17:57:06 2009 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 18:57:06 -0500 Subject: Working IBM luggable available Message-ID: <20090219235706.GA5828@brevard.conman.org> I wrote about this in December, but I figured I'd just give the gentleman's email address in case anyone is interested in this. I think he wanted quite a bit of money for it, so be prepared to haggle a bit. > Subject: Luggable computer > > From: DShoquist at seisint.com > Contact Phone: 561.893.8001 > > I found your name in an article about vintage computer collectors. I have > a working IBM luggable gathering dust and wanted to sell it. If you or > anyone you know is interested, please contact me. -spc (Please be kind 8-) From bshannon at tiac.net Thu Feb 19 17:57:41 2009 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 18:57:41 -0500 Subject: Optically switched control panel? References: <0d21dde7c929acf93c1249e8882e2b51@bellsouth.net> Message-ID: <1D99ECAA931B403EA49F74CF6F701C2F@screamer> I'm aware of something close... The HP2114 computers use a capacitive proximity switch. There is a small variable capacitor behind the front panel to adjust the sensitivity of the switch. If its over-adjusted, a wave of a finger will toggle the switch register bits, which then light up from behind. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Loewen" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, February 01, 2009 11:19 AM Subject: Optically switched control panel? > > A member of another list thinks he remembers a large computer with a > control/maintenance panel that used optical switches to set and clear > register bits. The operator would place a finger in a hole/depression, > interrupting a light beam to a photosensor, toggling a flip-flop. > > Did such a system exist, or is this just wishful thinking? > > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ > From billdeg at degnanco.com Thu Feb 19 20:35:42 2009 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B Degnan) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 21:35:42 -0500 Subject: MITS 1440 Calculator Message-ID: <499E16FE.80701@degnanco.com> Does anyone have a MITS 1440 Calculator? I am looking for someone who either has a non-working unit, or one that needs some sort of attention, or someone who would be trusting enough to loan me and a friend their working unit to carefully swap the ROM chips and see which one is bad. I think the risk of damaging a good chip is low, but paranoid attention will be made to avoid accidents. I have been told that the input chip is OK, and the output chip is OK. The control chip seems OK. Most likely the program ROM chip is bad, but it could possibly be the registers or ALU. More likely the ALU than the registers chip.If anyone is interested in this project, feel free to drop me a line. See July 1973 Radio Electronics for more info. Bill D From rborsuk at colourfull.com Thu Feb 19 21:20:03 2009 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 22:20:03 -0500 Subject: [Claimed] HP 1000 F for trade? References: Message-ID: <42B6C8B1-4573-4AAD-B131-388801A53F34@colourfull.com> Thank you all who have responded. The HP system has been claimed. Rob (always looking for a trade) Borsuk Begin forwarded message: > Subject: HP 1000 F for trade? > > All this talk about HP 1000 F reminded me that I have one of these > beast that I need to get rid of. > Anybody got anything good to trade? (Wang equipment would take > precedence)(TRS-80 and CP/M machines are cool). > > Pics at: > http://gallery.me.com/irisworld#100093 > > Rob > > ps. USA only please. > Rob Borsuk email: rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations Web: http://www.colourfull.com From eric940 at gmail.com Thu Feb 19 23:00:29 2009 From: eric940 at gmail.com (eric) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 21:00:29 -0800 Subject: Data General Dasher D200 Terminal on eBay Message-ID: I recall (some time ago) that a few folks mentioned they were on the lookout for these terminals: http://tinyurl.com/dasher-ebay ebay item #: 200270569660 Always have admired the aesthetics of this terminal, albeit a bit pricey from this seller. (Then again, many items from this seller are pricey.) Disclaimer: I'm not affiliated w/this auction in any manner -- purely an FYI post for those who had expressed interest. From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Thu Feb 19 23:52:40 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 21:52:40 -0800 Subject: Advice for Tek 4051 vector-drawing issue? In-Reply-To: <4994E67B.6030308@mail.msu.edu> References: <499144EE.3020002@mail.msu.edu> <499158D2.2020301@philpem.me.uk> <49924848.1080601@mail.msu.edu> <49930A69.504@philpem.me.uk> <4993B0D7.9030504@mail.msu.edu> <4994BDA2.5020701@philpem.me.uk> <4994E67B.6030308@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <499E4528.6090106@mail.msu.edu> Alright! Replaced the four .01uF capacitors in the X/Y filters and it made a huge difference. It's still not completely perfect, but it's very close. http://yahozna.dyndns.org/computers/tek4051/vector.jpg (compare to before: http://yahozna.dyndns.org/computers/tek4051/unvector.jpg) The small remaining imperfection may be due to me accidentally ordering 10% tolerance instead of 1% for these capacitors. But it's very promising. Thanks, everyone, for the help! Now if there was only some software archived for this thing :). Guess I'll have to write something really cool to show off the cool display now... Thanks again, Josh Josh Dersch wrote: > > > Philip Pemberton wrote: >> Josh Dersch wrote: >>> My multimeter doesn't go that high (I really need to get a good one >>> one of these days.) >> >> My Fluke 25 won't go that high either -- max range on that is 32 >> megohms. I've got a Solartron 7150plus bench DMM that can read down >> to one milliohm in the 2K-ohm range (6.5 digits with averaging >> enabled), but still limits at 20M-ohms max. >> >> > I replaced these with two 20M's in series (figured it'd >>> be close enough to at least see if it changes anything, and I can't >>> find any place that actually stocks 39M resistors that aren't >>> SMD...) No change in display behavior. >> >> The spec in the parts list was 1%. 1% of 39M is 390k-ohms either >> way... 40M is well out of spec. >> >> I'd have used a 20M, a 10M, an 2.2M and a 6.8M in series which gets >> you 39M exactly, and if you use 1% resistors you should be within 1% >> of the final value (assuming my math is accurate, which it probably >> isn't). Note that all of those are E12 values, i.e. standard resistor >> values. > Ah, whoops -- thought it was 5% like the others, but you're right. > Well, nothing blew up... >> >>> Found some MC1458P's on Mouser, ordered... we'll see if this makes >>> any difference. >> >> Well, based on what you've done, that leaves the capacitors and the >> opamps (as you've already said). >> >> There is a note on page 5-26 of volume 1 relating to the test fixture >> and the vector display -- specifically: >> Don't worry if both directions of vector drawing do not close for >> the deflection magnitude may be well out of the linear range of >> display deflection parameters. >> >> I've just been (re-)reading Jed Margolin's "Secret Life of Vector >> Generators" article (). There's >> a bit in this article about capacitors in analog vector generators... >> and how picky the integrators in AVGs tend to be..... >> >> I'm starting to wonder if some normally-irrelevant parameter of those >> poly caps has shifted and fragged the vector generator. >> >> Catch is, because both channels are intended to be matched (there's a >> bit about that in the theory of operation for the vector generator in >> Vol 1, IIRC) you might have to replace the same parts in both >> channels to get everything to match up... > Well, it's not the op-amps: I discovered last night (of course, after > ordering the parts...) that the tape controller board has 3 MC1458's > on it, so I swapped a pair of them with the CPU board. No change, and > the tape drive still works fine, so I think we can rule those out. > > I've ordered enough replacement caps to replace them in both the X/Y > channels so we'll see what happens once the parts arrive. > > Thanks again, > Josh >> >>> Thanks for the help! >> >> No problem. >> > > From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Fri Feb 20 03:01:30 2009 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 01:01:30 -0800 Subject: Optically switched control panel? References: <0d21dde7c929acf93c1249e8882e2b51@bellsouth.net> <1D99ECAA931B403EA49F74CF6F701C2F@screamer> Message-ID: <000b01c99339$d28dff30$0201a8c0@hal9000> Part of the US NAVY UYQ-21 AEGIS program used an input / output computer device called a Computer Controlled Action Entry Panel ( CCAEP ) that had "switches" that were really just holes that you poke your finger into to interrupt a light beam ( IR LED ) that was shining on a phototransistor. Couldn't use capacitive switches because the guys had to wear gloves in the event of a chemical threat. Best regards, Steven > > A member of another list thinks he remembers a large computer with a > > control/maintenance panel that used optical switches to set and clear > > register bits. The operator would place a finger in a hole/depression, > > interrupting a light beam to a photosensor, toggling a flip-flop. > > > > Did such a system exist, or is this just wishful thinking? > > > > > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us From rmliu at hotmail.com Thu Feb 19 12:08:35 2009 From: rmliu at hotmail.com (Robert) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 10:08:35 -0800 Subject: Radio Shack Science Fair manuals Message-ID: Hi Brian, I read your post back in 2006. You said you have the manuals for "200 in 1" and "75 in 1". Could you email me a copy of both manuals? I actually need the manual for "160 in 1", but maybe the two you got might work. thanks, Robert _________________________________________________________________ Get more out of the Web. Learn 10 hidden secrets of Windows Live. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008 From les at hildenbrandt.com Thu Feb 19 20:27:19 2009 From: les at hildenbrandt.com (Les Hildenbrandt) Date: Thu, 19 Feb 2009 19:27:19 -0700 Subject: 8088 vs. 80c88 In-Reply-To: <200902140828.n1E8S4N3096535@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200902140828.n1E8S4N3096535@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <499E1507.7030000@hildenbrandt.com> There was also the NEC V20, which was pin for pin compatible with the 8088. It was a CMOS part. There were a few instructions that the V20 executed in fewer clock cycles than the 8088 (multiply comes to mind), causing some motherboard vendors to install a V20, and the sell a 10mhz motherboard as a 12mhz motherboard. The truly great feature of the V20 was the 8080 emulation mode. When a special opcode was executed, the processor switched to 8080 mode, a very fast 8080. I made several CP/M (80) systems using a V20 processor, with a small prom to put the v20 into 8080 mode. I could then switch back into 16 bit mode to implement a ram disk. Les From tosteve at yahoo.com Fri Feb 20 03:37:34 2009 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 01:37:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Available: Victor manuals - southern California Message-ID: <350452.70000.qm@web110604.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Hello, I have two boxes of Victor software manuals only, no software: They include: Pascal MultiPlan BASIC Cobol Word Prefect and more. See attached photos. Sorry, some manuals not visible in photos. I live in Orange County, southern California. Who will make an offer on these? $0.00 is acceptable, but you may be outbid. From jim at photojim.ca Fri Feb 20 09:11:30 2009 From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 09:11:30 -0600 Subject: VAX cables for the cost of postage Message-ID: Hi all, Yesterday I had a failure of my router (it wouldn't reboot after a UPS was reset and it took me basically all day to get it running - but I did get it running!). Since there was a ton of hurry-up-and-wait, I took advantage of the opportunity to clean my basement computer area quite a lot, and made a huge pile of stuff. Most of it isn't of any particular interest to people here (unless you have an itch to own an external Supra modem with a rotating LED display :) ) but I found a box of VAX cables that might well be of interest. Included: A very long (50'?) MMJ to MMJ cable (male on both ends) A fairly long MMJ to DB25 female cable, homemade by someone, connected to a standard DB9/DB25 modem cable. I haven't tested it. This can be the console cable on a VAX (I have one just like it on my VAXstation 4000/60). Two MMJ female to DB25 male cable adapters. You have to self-wire them but the wiring is included. Unopened. Labelled ATI-G25M6-DEC. One MMJ female to DB9 male cable adapter. I inserted the pins on this, but I'm not sure if it's right because it didn't work for me. Hopefully if I did screw it up, you can rewire it easily enough. Two RJ45 female to DB9 male cable adapters, as above, pins uninserted. Two RJ45 female to DB25 male cable adapters, as above, pins uninserted. I think I figured I could put these to use in this project, but I'm not quite sure what I had in mind. :) Obviously, they'd be useful in making inexpensive CAT5-based serial cables. (Presumably they'd be good if you wanted to make a cable for Sparcstations or such, since Sparcs seem to have reverse gender serial ports. I seem to have gender bender adapters for mine though.) A weird DEC cable, DB25 male on one end, and what I think is QBus female on the other (3 rows of pins, 17/16/17 - DB50?). I'm guessing this will be a huge score to someone, just not sure what it goes with. :) Cost: Free. You pay shipping from Canada (to check postage costs, http://www.canadapost.ca, from postal code S4R 1A1). I'll have to formally weigh the package, but I'd guess about 2.5 kg. It's in a standard #10 envelope box that originally held 500 envelopes. To make it fun: - I won't pick a recipient until whenever I check my email first on Sunday (so figure noon CST/1800 UTC as a rough guess, although it might be earlier or later). - If only one person wants them, they win no matter what. :) - Each interested person gets one entry to the random selection. - Canadians preferred, and get an extra entry. But if you're outside Canada and will pay postage, and really, really need this stuff, an exuberant email convincing me of such will make me treat you like you're Canadian. :) (You may also owe me a draught ale from a local establishment, if I ever end up in your city.) (Particularly exuberant Canadians may get three entries, at my discretion.) - Correctly answering the trivia question below gets an extra entry. - Promising to give me an account on a VAX you are running gets you an extra entry. :) (I promise not to abuse it.) (And you don't have to give me an account unless you are awarded these bits, of course.) - Don't answer the trivia question in-list. :) Please reply to me directly, and not on-list. The trivia questions: If you live in Canada, or are a Canadian citizen, answer this one: What is the newest Alberta telephone area code? If you live in the United States, or are an American citizen, answer this one: What state(s) in the United States have land area north of the 49th parallel? If you do not fit into either of those categories, answer this one: Palm trees can be found growing where in Canada? (Hint: the answer is not "indoors", although this may pedantically be true. :) ) Good luck :) Jim From robo58 at optonline.net Fri Feb 20 09:40:39 2009 From: robo58 at optonline.net (ROBO5.8) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 10:40:39 -0500 Subject: Wanted Z80 In Circuit Emulator for Loan/Rent/Buy In-Reply-To: <4983EE36.1295.702F89E7@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20090129214801.GN27880@n0jcf.net> <49832AC4.18605.6D3416BA@cclist.sydex.com> <002701c983a3$1db32f40$59198dc0$@net> <4983EE36.1295.702F89E7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <005c01c99371$94f37320$beda5960$@net> Hi, I am looking to borrow, rent or possibly purchase a working Z80 In-Circuit Emulator. If anyone has one I would appreciate their assistance. Thanks Robo From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Fri Feb 20 09:54:01 2009 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 15:54:01 +0000 Subject: Wanted Z80 In Circuit Emulator for Loan/Rent/Buy In-Reply-To: <005c01c99371$94f37320$beda5960$@net> References: <20090129214801.GN27880@n0jcf.net> <49832AC4.18605.6D3416BA@cclist.sydex.com> <002701c983a3$1db32f40$59198dc0$@net> <4983EE36.1295.702F89E7@cclist.sydex.com> <005c01c99371$94f37320$beda5960$@net> Message-ID: A sensible post includes some idea of location for a hardware request Dave Caroline From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 20 12:18:23 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 11:18:23 -0700 Subject: Data General Dasher D200 Terminal on eBay In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 19 Feb 2009 21:00:29 -0800. Message-ID: This guy has high prices and always puts the same boiler text on every listing "this will look great in your vintage computer collection", yet he does a very poor job of packing items for shipment. Insufficient protection and reused boxes from grocery stores that are not sufficient to carry 75+ lbs of weight. What I ordered from him arrived as a smashed pile of plastic. Gee, won't that look great in my vintage computer collection? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From frustum at pacbell.net Fri Feb 20 12:23:51 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 12:23:51 -0600 Subject: Randy Cook, TRSDOS, and Datapoint Message-ID: <499EF537.1070505@pacbell.net> It is fairly well known that Randy Cook developed TRSDOS 1.*, 2.1. and 2.2 until he and Tandy had a falling out over the rights to the code. Randy even placed an easter egg that caused his name to be printed out in a copyright message. For TRSDOS 2.2 tandy found the code and patched "RANDY COOK" to read "TANDY CORP" (a three byte difference). Randy developed VTOS, and according to Tim Mann, LDOS was developed by disassembling VTOS 4.0, fixing bugs, and building on top of that. LDOS was eventually licensed by Tandy to be TRSDOS 6.0. OK, the new piece, which I didn't know, was that Randy Cook was an employee of Datapoint when he got the contract to write TRSDOS. He left Datapoint do to consulting work, and everyone assumed he meant on datapoint business. Apparently Datapoint claimed that Randy took DP's code and or "technology" and used that as the basis of TRSDOS. There was a either a lawsuit or a threat of one, but my contact says he wasn't privy to that and so it is hearsay coming from him. I am not familiar with the DP OS (was it really just the Databus language, or was there an OS layer akin to TRSDOS?) Can anybody here compare the two and find threads of similarity? From teoz at neo.rr.com Fri Feb 20 12:31:25 2009 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 13:31:25 -0500 Subject: Data Translation DT2803 Message-ID: I have a Data Translation DT2803 card I am looking for software for, I think it is 1986 vintage (8 bit ISA) frame grabber and can't find anything on it at the Data translation website (the oldest stuff they have seems to be 16 bit ISA). Anybody have a mirror of their old files? From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 20 11:17:39 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 09:17:39 -0800 Subject: 8088 vs. 80c88 In-Reply-To: <499E1507.7030000@hildenbrandt.com> References: <200902140828.n1E8S4N3096535@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <499E1507.7030000@hildenbrandt.com> Message-ID: <499E7533.30107.336AACE5@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Feb 2009 at 19:27, Les Hildenbrandt wrote: > There was also the NEC V20, which was pin for pin compatible with the > 8088. It was a CMOS part. There were a few instructions that the V20 > executed in fewer clock cycles than the 8088 (multiply comes to mind), > causing some motherboard vendors to install a V20, and the sell a 10mhz > motherboard as a 12mhz motherboard. The problem with the V20's 8080 emulation was that it was buggy (I have a few MicroNotes on the subject and can even claim to have discovered one of the bugs). For me, the V20 ultimately proved to be more useful by providing many of the 80186/286 instructions that the 8080 lacked. Use of a V20 with an 8087 NDP could also create problems of its own, so the added functionality was not without its own problems. It's also worthwhile to mention that the V20/30 has instructions that none of the Intel x86 members has, such as packed BCD string arithmetic. I believe that the emulation mode features extended to the V40 and V50 chips also. At least that's what my databook claims. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 20 14:04:20 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 20:04:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Canon LPB-10 info sought. In-Reply-To: <499D5F06.31743.2F2C10E6@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Feb 19, 9 01:30:46 pm Message-ID: > Didn't the Atari ST have a similarly unintelligent laser printer? I beleive so. The Acorn Archimedes did too. As did the PERQ (I speak from experience in the last case..). AFAIK these wrre Canon CX-VDO printers -- basically a CX printer (think of the LBP-8A1, the HP Laserjet 1, rtc) without a formatter board, and with a DC37 socket wired to the input of the DC controller (Engine controller) PCB. A similar internface, mostly backwrds compatible, was avaialle for the SX printers (Laserjet II, etc). It was a PCB containing a few uffer chips that mounted in place of the formatter PCB. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Feb 20 14:01:31 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 20:01:31 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Canon LPB-10 info sought. In-Reply-To: <499DD29A.8080101@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel" at Feb 19, 9 10:43:54 pm Message-ID: > No idea. I only know that this particular printer was used on the Lilith. > I do not have the hardware used to connect the printer. Do you have any technical informaiton, particularly scheamtics of the Lilith interface? Having done battle with the PERQ laser printer interface (which was desigend to connect to a CX-VDO printer, alothough I believe it could be used with an LBP-10, maybe with minor modifications), and having converted an LBP-8A1 into a CX-VDO, I might well be ale to spot things on the schematic. -tony From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Fri Feb 20 14:56:47 2009 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 21:56:47 +0100 Subject: Canon LPB-10 info sought. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <499F190F.8010607@bluewin.ch> Tony Duell wrote: >> No idea. I only know that this particular printer was used on the Lilith. >> I do not have the hardware used to connect the printer. > > Do you have any technical informaiton, particularly scheamtics of the > Lilith interface? > I have general knowledge of the Lilith's IO structure, and a bit of microcode that is targetted towards this printer. That is all I have ... From evan at snarc.net Fri Feb 20 15:09:17 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 16:09:17 -0500 Subject: Our hobby on MSNBC.com Message-ID: <000d01c9939f$7ef8d690$0301a8c0@evan> http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29264722/ MSNBC today posted a slide show about vintage portables. Myself and CHM curator Chris Garcia are quoted. Also, pictures were supplied by myself, Bill Degnan, and Erik Klein. The slide show is pretty much accurate. It's "the truth" but not necessarily "the whole truth" because of a few other products and technical nuances. Anyway, speaking for myself / MARCH / InfoAge Science Center, we're happy to have the mainstream press. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Feb 20 15:46:53 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 13:46:53 -0800 Subject: Randy Cook, TRSDOS, and Datapoint Message-ID: <499F24CD.1050008@bitsavers.org> > Can anybody here compare the two and find threads of similarity? Gordon P. seems like the guy to ask.. From frustum at pacbell.net Fri Feb 20 16:05:35 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 16:05:35 -0600 Subject: Randy Cook, TRSDOS, and Datapoint In-Reply-To: <499F24CD.1050008@bitsavers.org> References: <499F24CD.1050008@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <499F292F.6080403@pacbell.net> Al Kossow wrote: > > Can anybody here compare the two and find threads of similarity? > > Gordon P. seems like the guy to ask.. > > Yeah, I have already asked; let's see what he has to say. However, I doubt he has the slightest idea of TRSDOS. From frustum at pacbell.net Fri Feb 20 16:05:35 2009 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 16:05:35 -0600 Subject: Randy Cook, TRSDOS, and Datapoint In-Reply-To: <499F24CD.1050008@bitsavers.org> References: <499F24CD.1050008@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <499F292F.6080403@pacbell.net> Al Kossow wrote: > > Can anybody here compare the two and find threads of similarity? > > Gordon P. seems like the guy to ask.. > > Yeah, I have already asked; let's see what he has to say. However, I doubt he has the slightest idea of TRSDOS. From jtp at chinalake.com Fri Feb 20 16:09:16 2009 From: jtp at chinalake.com (J. Peterson) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 17:09:16 -0500 Subject: FS: AUI/Thinnet Xceivers, 10bT Xceiver, Plextor 4Plex HH SCSI drive In-Reply-To: <200902201801.n1KI1LxG053451@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200902201801.n1KI1LxG053451@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <499F2A0C.10902@chinalake.com> More items from cleaning out the lab, nothing free this time (need cash for restoration): All used, minor wear on one LTX-2 and the Hong, others are excellent. (2) Lantronix LTX-2 ThinNet tranceivers, (RCV, HBE switches), T included, Term if you need one, $3 each + shipping in a padded envelope. (1) Hong Technologies 10baseT tranceiver. Slightly larger than normal, Handy leds: Jabber, Link, Polarity, Transmit, Receive, collision, Power. $3 + shipping (1) Plextor SE SCSI, HH CD-ROM, Sept 1995. This is a caddy unit and I will include one caddy, if I can find more I'll add them in. Term and Polarity jumpers, sound out also. Let me know if you want a ribbon cable and term with it, $8 + shipping. Unit is about 2.5 lbs (-) There is also a DEC SCSI Y Cable "BN21V-0B" on ebay Photos avail. Ship from 02421, Boston area, MA Cheers, -j From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Feb 20 16:16:07 2009 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 14:16:07 -0800 Subject: MICRAL documents Message-ID: <499F2BA7.4060909@bitsavers.org> Some people asked about it on comp.os.cpm, so there are a few MICRAL documents up on http://bitsavers.org/pdf/r2e now. From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri Feb 20 16:41:50 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon J. C. Pearce MM3YEQ) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 22:41:50 +0000 Subject: Randy Cook, TRSDOS, and Datapoint In-Reply-To: <499F24CD.1050008@bitsavers.org> References: <499F24CD.1050008@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1235169710.7236.33.camel@kusanagi> On Fri, 2009-02-20 at 13:46 -0800, Al Kossow wrote: > > Can anybody here compare the two and find threads of similarity? > > Gordon P. seems like the guy to ask.. Wiznae me ;-) Gordonjcp. From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Feb 20 18:59:17 2009 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 18:59:17 -0600 Subject: 8088 vs. 80c88 In-Reply-To: <499E7533.30107.336AACE5@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200902140828.n1E8S4N3096535@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <499E1507.7030000@hildenbrandt.com> <499E7533.30107.336AACE5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <499F51E5.6070108@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > It's also worthwhile to mention that the V20/30 has instructions that > none of the Intel x86 members has, such as packed BCD string > arithmetic. I have never found a decent resource on NEC V20 special opcode programming; the only stuff I've found has been on how to detect an NEC through bugs, and searching via google has been unproductive for the last 20 minutes. Is there a resource for what the extended instructions were, or is that lost to paper history? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From eric940 at gmail.com Fri Feb 20 19:49:17 2009 From: eric940 at gmail.com (eric) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 17:49:17 -0800 Subject: Data General Dasher D200 Terminal on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > ... yet he does a very poor job of packing items for shipment. > Insufficient protection and reused boxes from grocery stores that are > not sufficient to carry 75+ lbs of weight. What I ordered from him > arrived as a smashed pile of plastic. Figures. There's always someone out there willing to trash a good pile of bits just to save a buck here, and -- consequently -- make a buck there. I feel for you, brother. From JeLynch at stny.rr.com Fri Feb 20 19:54:19 2009 From: JeLynch at stny.rr.com (Jim Lynch) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 20:54:19 -0500 Subject: 8088 vs. 80c88 In-Reply-To: <499F51E5.6070108@oldskool.org> References: <200902140828.n1E8S4N3096535@dewey.classiccmp.org> <499E1507.7030000@hildenbrandt.com> <499E7533.30107.336AACE5@cclist.sydex.com> <499F51E5.6070108@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20090221015401.ILOV20095.hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com@D40ZSC81.stny.rr.com> Chuck, Personally I loved the Nec V25 and V35 microcontrollers for small projects. For a "decent resource" on the Nec V20/30 did you look at the Nec User's Manual for the V Series (~ 1 thick, Circa 1992)? I have one around here somewhere. Jim At 07:59 PM 2/20/2009, you wrote: >Chuck Guzis wrote: >>It's also worthwhile to mention that the V20/30 has instructions >>that none of the Intel x86 members has, such as packed BCD string arithmetic. > >I have never found a decent resource on NEC V20 special opcode >programming; the only stuff I've found has been on how to detect an >NEC through bugs, and searching via google has been unproductive for >the last 20 minutes. Is there a resource for what the extended >instructions were, or is that lost to paper history? >-- >Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ >Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ >Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ >A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [] Jim e-mail: JeLynch at stny.rr.com website: www.gluons.us From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 20 20:14:49 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 18:14:49 -0800 Subject: 8088 vs. 80c88 In-Reply-To: <20090221015401.ILOV20095.hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com@D40ZSC81.stny.rr.com> References: <200902140828.n1E8S4N3096535@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <499F51E5.6070108@oldskool.org>, <20090221015401.ILOV20095.hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com@D40ZSC81.stny.rr.com> Message-ID: <499EF319.6441.35567D8F@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Feb 2009 at 20:54, Jim Lynch wrote: > Chuck, > > Personally I loved the Nec V25 and V35 microcontrollers for small > projects. For a "decent resource" on the Nec V20/30 did you look at > the Nec User's Manual for the V Series (~ 1 thick, Circa 1992)? Yup, I've got it, but the V20/30-specific one is better (IMOHO) on the nitty-gritty for programmers of those chips. I liked the V40/V50 a lot--80186-ish, but with signals to tell you which segment register was being used for memory references, so you could have up to 4 separate 1MB memory spaces. Cheers, Chuck From pcw at mesanet.com Fri Feb 20 20:24:46 2009 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 18:24:46 -0800 (PST) Subject: 8088 vs. 80c88 In-Reply-To: <499EF319.6441.35567D8F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200902140828.n1E8S4N3096535@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <499F51E5.6070108@oldskool.org>, <20090221015401.ILOV20095.hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com@D40ZSC81.stny.rr.com> <499EF319.6441.35567D8F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Feb 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 18:14:49 -0800 > From: Chuck Guzis > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: 8088 vs. 80c88 > > On 20 Feb 2009 at 20:54, Jim Lynch wrote: > >> Chuck, >> >> Personally I loved the Nec V25 and V35 microcontrollers for small >> projects. For a "decent resource" on the Nec V20/30 did you look at >> the Nec User's Manual for the V Series (~ 1 thick, Circa 1992)? > > Yup, I've got it, but the V20/30-specific one is better (IMOHO) on > the nitty-gritty for programmers of those chips. > > I liked the V40/V50 a lot--80186-ish, but with signals to tell you > which segment register was being used for memory references, so you > could have up to 4 separate 1MB memory spaces. > > Cheers, > Chuck > We used V40s a lot in the 90's. Their DMA controller was really nice as well, with 1M direct addressing. We drove 320x240 mono LCDs with minimal hardware, DMAing the data nibble and the framing signals directly to the LCD. 1 bit in memory was used as a long PDM stream for contrast adjust. Peter Wallace From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Feb 20 20:42:53 2009 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt Vendel - Atarimuseum) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 21:42:53 -0500 Subject: Data General Dasher D200 Terminal on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <499F6A2D.1050702@atarimuseum.com> I've been looking for quite some time for that specific terminal and I'd really like to go one, but if this seller is as risky as everyone says, I'd rather pass. Why spend nearly $300 for a dented up box filled with broken parts that was supposed to have been a beautiful piece of hardware. Curt Richard wrote: > This guy has high prices and always puts the same boiler text on every > listing "this will look great in your vintage computer collection", > yet he does a very poor job of packing items for shipment. > Insufficient protection and reused boxes from grocery stores that are > not sufficient to carry 75+ lbs of weight. What I ordered from him > arrived as a smashed pile of plastic. Gee, won't that look great in > my vintage computer collection? > From rborsuk at colourfull.com Fri Feb 20 21:45:21 2009 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 22:45:21 -0500 Subject: Data General Dasher D200 Terminal on eBay In-Reply-To: <499F6A2D.1050702@atarimuseum.com> References: <499F6A2D.1050702@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <54F18D5E-E884-4EED-8BF4-537D54DFF96A@colourfull.com> I think that price is kind of crazy. I have a couple of them and I would gladly let one go for $200 plus shipping. Rob On Feb 20, 2009, at 9:42 PM, Curt Vendel - Atarimuseum wrote: > I've been looking for quite some time for that specific terminal and > I'd really like to go one, but if this seller is as risky as > everyone says, I'd rather pass. Why spend nearly $300 for a dented > up box filled with broken parts that was supposed to have been a > beautiful piece of hardware. > > > Curt > > > Richard wrote: >> This guy has high prices and always puts the same boiler text on >> every >> listing "this will look great in your vintage computer collection", >> yet he does a very poor job of packing items for shipment. >> Insufficient protection and reused boxes from grocery stores that are >> not sufficient to carry 75+ lbs of weight. What I ordered from him >> arrived as a smashed pile of plastic. Gee, won't that look great in >> my vintage computer collection? >> > From robo58 at optonline.net Fri Feb 20 22:11:18 2009 From: robo58 at optonline.net (ROBO5.8) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 23:11:18 -0500 Subject: Location : Wanted Z80 In Circuit Emulator for Loan/Rent/Buy In-Reply-To: <4983EE36.1295.702F89E7@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20090129214801.GN27880@n0jcf.net> <49832AC4.18605.6D3416BA@cclist.sydex.com> <002701c983a3$1db32f40$59198dc0$@net> <4983EE36.1295.702F89E7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <013201c993da$729b3e20$57d1ba60$@net> Hello, A kind poster mentioned that I should have given the list my general location so members would better able to assist me. I am located in the NY City Metro area. Please advise if you have a Z80 In Circuit Emulator available. Thanks Robo From cclist at sydex.com Fri Feb 20 19:29:31 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 17:29:31 -0800 Subject: 8088 vs. 80c88 In-Reply-To: <499F51E5.6070108@oldskool.org> References: <200902140828.n1E8S4N3096535@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <499E7533.30107.336AACE5@cclist.sydex.com>, <499F51E5.6070108@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <499EE87B.821.352D0384@cclist.sydex.com> On 20 Feb 2009 at 18:59, Jim Leonard wrote: > I have never found a decent resource on NEC V20 special opcode > programming; the only stuff I've found has been on how to detect an NEC > through bugs, and searching via google has been unproductive for the > last 20 minutes. Is there a resource for what the extended instructions > were, or is that lost to paper history? Dunno--my reference is "uPD70108/70116 Low-Power CMOS Microprocessors User/s Manual" August 1985, Stock No. 500350. Sort of a strange read if you're used to Intel terminology, as NEC uses their own. For example, the register names are different (AW,BW,CW,DW,IX,IY; PS, DS0, DS1, SS) and mnemoics are different--e.g., Intel AAM is called CVTBD (convert bindary to decimal). Just enough difference to make you think that NEC rewrote the Intel manual in Frisian. There's also a V-Series general reference namual that describes all of the members of the V-family, but not in any great detail. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Fri Feb 20 22:29:32 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 21:29:32 -0700 Subject: reasonable price for a working VT05? Message-ID: What's a reasonable price for a working VT05 in good working order and cosmetic condition? By "reasonable price" I don't want to hear stories about how you found one for $5 at surplus 10 or more years ago. Its irrelevant. So before you go on about how these things used to be commonplace and cheap/free, let's just inject a little reality into the discussion. They don't come up on ebay with any sort of regular frequency; in several years of running a standard search for DEC terminals, its never come up once. VT52s/VT78s rarely show up anywhere, while VT100s are fairly common. I'm not even aware of many collectors that have one; I know the Wofford Witch project has one, but I don't think Henk in the Netherlands has one (he has a VT55 link, but no VT05). The Computer History Museum appears to have two in its collection, but that's no surprise considering they've received a lot of stuff from Gordon Bell (as I understand it). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Feb 20 22:36:20 2009 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 23:36:20 -0500 Subject: reasonable price for a working VT05? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > What's a reasonable price for a working VT05 in good working order and > cosmetic condition? I have not seen a VT05 in the wild for years now, and I know more than a few people that would do dirty deeds to get one. With that in mind, I would think that a nice, working VT05 should be worth a few hundred bucks. It would not shock me if one hit four figures, on the right day with the right eyes looking at it. -- Will From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Feb 20 11:29:42 2009 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 12:29:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: VAX cables for the cost of postage In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200902201732.MAA01303@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > A weird DEC cable, DB25 male on one end, and what I think is QBus > female on the other (3 rows of pins, 17/16/17 - DB50?). I'm guessing > this will be a huge score to someone, just not sure what it goes > with. :) I'm not sure how fair it is to call a DD50 "Qbus", since Qbus is a card-edge connector bus. But this might be a SCSI cable; I've seen both DB25 and DD50 used for SCSI (D-shell SCSI in my experience always uses male connectors on the cables, but my experience with DD50 SCSI is pretty much limited to Suns). It might be useful to buzz it out.... > To make it fun: > [...] I like this. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Feb 20 16:45:24 2009 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 22:45:24 -0000 Subject: Powering up a 20-year old MicroVAX II Message-ID: <002701c993ac$ec340560$c49c1020$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> I have just collected a MicroVAX II which has been in storage and has not been powered on for 20 years. This is my first machine of such an age, unfortunately I am not particularly knowledgeable at the electronics level (I studied circuits academically 25+ years ago and can solder a bit, but that is as far as it goes). I know I will need to treat it carefully in order to get it working again. I plan to open it up and make sure I clear out any debris etc, but beyond that I need advice from those with the experience and knowledge that I lack on how to go about powering it up carefully. Thanks Rob From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sat Feb 21 03:20:08 2009 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 10:20:08 +0100 (CET) Subject: 8088 vs. 80c88 In-Reply-To: <499EF319.6441.35567D8F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200902140828.n1E8S4N3096535@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <499F51E5.6070108@oldskool.org>, <20090221015401.ILOV20095.hrndva-omta01.mail.rr.com@D40ZSC81.stny.rr.com> <499EF319.6441.35567D8F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Feb 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I liked the V40/V50 a lot--80186-ish, but with signals to tell you > which segment register was being used for memory references, so you > could have up to 4 separate 1MB memory spaces. But that is not a NEC specific feature, these signals can be found on the i8086 and i8088, too. Christian From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sat Feb 21 04:58:31 2009 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 11:58:31 +0100 Subject: reasonable price for a working VT05? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > From: legalize at xmission.com > Date: Fri, 20 Feb 2009 21:29:32 -0700 > Subject: reasonable price for a working VT05? > > What's a reasonable price for a working VT05 in good working order and > cosmetic condition? > > By "reasonable price" I don't want to hear stories about how you found > one for $5 at surplus 10 or more years ago. Its irrelevant. So before > you go on about how these things used to be commonplace and cheap/free, > let's just inject a little reality into the discussion. > > They don't come up on ebay with any sort of regular frequency; in > several years of running a standard search for DEC terminals, its never > come up once. VT52s/VT78s rarely show up anywhere, while VT100s are > fairly common. I'm not even aware of many collectors that have one; > I know the Wofford Witch project has one, but I don't think Henk in > the Netherlands has one (he has a VT55 link, but no VT05). The > Computer History Museum appears to have two in its collection, but > that's no surprise considering they've received a lot of stuff from > Gordon Bell (as I understand it). > -- Jup, I have, according to the tag at the rear side, a VT55-FB. Till now I did not find the electrostatic paper for it. The terminal has a printer built in at the righthand side. I guess that 2 years ago (I can be wrong, time flies!) one VT05 was for sale for $350 on the vintage computer site. If it was not in Canada (IIRC) I would have bought it, but shipping costs are one thing, getting it safe across the ocean is another thing. BTW, it was on sale for 350 for some time before somebody grabbed it. Personally, if an VT05 would appear in The Netherlands, I would pay 350 euro's (that's approx $430). - Henk From lproven at gmail.com Sat Feb 21 07:11:41 2009 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 13:11:41 +0000 Subject: UK101 update Message-ID: <575131af0902210511o322cac9ejc39978aa4105af58@mail.gmail.com> I have just, this afternoon, finally received the rest of the Compukit UK101 I was talking about last August, which aroused some interest - I received half a dozen direct emails and a few IMs about it, too. I now have the UK101, in a metal case resembling a rather enlarged Dragon32. I also have the original instruction manual, complete with receipt stapled in the back - 26/9/79, I believe. ?252 and change, including VAT, for an 8KB 8-bit machine. :?) I also have a bare (uncased) CRT monitor for it, in its original shipping box. I believe I may also have a demo software cassette tape - I've not yet tried to remove the monitor from its box. My plan is to put these on eBay and donate any proceeds to the Bletchley Park museum. Does this seem reasonable? They will cost a fair amount to post, although I am prepared to do that and I am a reasonably competent packer, not of the "chuck it in a box, add some polystyrene peanuts and hope" variety. Personal collection would be preferable, from South London, but for several potential purchasers I imagine this would not be viable. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat, Yahoo & Skype: liamproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Sat Feb 21 07:55:13 2009 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 08:55:13 -0500 Subject: UK101 update In-Reply-To: <575131af0902210511o322cac9ejc39978aa4105af58@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Liam Proven wrote: > > My plan is to put these on eBay and donate any proceeds to the > Bletchley Park museum. Does this seem reasonable? > Well, most reasonable would be to post it directly to me! ;-) But, as a second choice, that seems OK. Please post the ebay item number as soon as it is active. Thanks, Bill From alec at sensi.org Sat Feb 21 08:10:36 2009 From: alec at sensi.org (Alexander Voropay) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 17:10:36 +0300 Subject: 8088 vs. 80c88 In-Reply-To: <499E7533.30107.336AACE5@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200902140828.n1E8S4N3096535@dewey.classiccmp.org> <499E1507.7030000@hildenbrandt.com> <499E7533.30107.336AACE5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <347d9b1b0902210610g108a0cfak9e1ac6f4add9d91d@mail.gmail.com> 2009/2/20 Chuck Guzis : > The problem with the V20's 8080 emulation was that it was buggy (I > have a few MicroNotes on the subject and can even claim to have > discovered one of the bugs). Could you please add some notes to the Wikipedia article about NEC V20/Vxx : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEC_V20 To All: does anyone have "V2080 CPeMulator" programm mentioned on this page ? -- -=AV=- From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 21 11:12:20 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 09:12:20 -0800 Subject: 8088 vs. 80c88 In-Reply-To: References: <200902140828.n1E8S4N3096535@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <499EF319.6441.35567D8F@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <499FC574.7304.388C2417@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Feb 2009 at 10:20, Christian Corti wrote: > But that is not a NEC specific feature, these signals can be found on the > i8086 and i8088, too. Going back to the 8086 datasheet, I see that you're right--the S3/S4 status bits multiplexed onto the address lines. I've never seen an application that uses them that way on the 8086. Thanks, Chuck From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Feb 21 11:30:10 2009 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 17:30:10 +0000 Subject: VAX cables for the cost of postage In-Reply-To: <200902201732.MAA01303@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <200902201732.MAA01303@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <49A03A22.40403@dunnington.plus.com> On 20/02/2009 17:29, der Mouse wrote: >> A weird DEC cable, DB25 male on one end, and what I think is QBus >> female on the other (3 rows of pins, 17/16/17 - DB50?). I'm guessing >> this will be a huge score to someone, just not sure what it goes >> with. :) > But this might be a SCSI cable; I've seen both DB25 and DD50 used for > SCSI (D-shell SCSI in my experience always uses male connectors on the > cables, but my experience with DD50 SCSI is pretty much limited to > Suns). I have a couple of DEC SCSI cables with DD50 ends, so I expect that's what it is. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cclist at sydex.com Sat Feb 21 12:09:17 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 10:09:17 -0800 Subject: 8088 vs. 80c88 In-Reply-To: <347d9b1b0902210610g108a0cfak9e1ac6f4add9d91d@mail.gmail.com> References: <200902140828.n1E8S4N3096535@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <499E7533.30107.336AACE5@cclist.sydex.com>, <347d9b1b0902210610g108a0cfak9e1ac6f4add9d91d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <499FD2CD.7034.38C04C81@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Feb 2009 at 17:10, Alexander Voropay wrote: > 2009/2/20 Chuck Guzis : > > > The problem with the V20's 8080 emulation was that it was buggy (I > > have a few MicroNotes on the subject and can even claim to have > > discovered one of the bugs). > > Could you please add some notes to the Wikipedia article about NEC V20/Vxx : > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NEC_V20 I'll make a note to dig out my MicroNotes this upcoming week and put something together. > To All: does anyone have "V2080 CPeMulator" programm mentioned on this page ? I don't think so, but I know I do have a "CPMulator" from GFI Electronics of Olathe, KS. (One of many such programs). Cheers, Chuck > > -- > -=AV=- > From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Sat Feb 21 12:38:54 2009 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 19:38:54 +0100 Subject: Emulith V1.2, the ETH Lilith emulator, now also for windows. Message-ID: <49A04A3E.4000801@bluewin.ch> I prepared a new release of Emulith, my emulator for the ETH Lilith hardware. New features : - Usage of the FLTK toolkit instead of of Xlib. - Windows port. - Landscape/portrait modes - normal/reverse video. - file transfer to / from host system - diskimage make & split tool. - partial floppydisk support. - Speed display. Basic CPU emulation remained unchanged and, as before, sourcecode is supplied. Interested parties can now download from my FTP site - The Emulith windows package : ftp://jdreesen.dyndns.org/emulith/emulith_v12.msi - or the Linux package : ftp://jdreesen.dyndns.org/emulith/emulith_v12.tgz - for OS-X : no package yet as I do not own a Mac. However i expect very little issues in porting to the Mac. Volunteer can contact me. and a set of 5 diskimages ftp://jdreesen.dyndns.org/emulith/disk.tar.gz Enjoy, Jos Dreesen From jim at photojim.ca Sat Feb 21 14:13:07 2009 From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 14:13:07 -0600 Subject: VAX cables for the cost of postage In-Reply-To: <49A03A22.40403@dunnington.plus.com> References: <200902201732.MAA01303@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <49A03A22.40403@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pete Turnbull" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009 11:30 AM Subject: Re: VAX cables for the cost of postage > I have a couple of DEC SCSI cables with DD50 ends, so I expect that's what > it is. Very likely. In any event, if someone has particular want of it, and the winner of the box o' goodies doesn't want it, I don't mind splitting it off. But that person gets first dibs. :) Jim From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Sat Feb 21 14:38:28 2009 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 21:38:28 +0100 Subject: Emulith V1.2, the ETH Lilith emulator, now also for windows. In-Reply-To: <49A04A3E.4000801@bluewin.ch> References: <49A04A3E.4000801@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <49A06644.3090302@bluewin.ch> Dyndns is nice, but there are some pitfalls. Therefore some small corrections to the paths.. ftp://jdreesen.dyndns.org/ftp/Emulith/emulith_v12.msi ftp://jdreesen.dyndns.org/ftp/Emulith/emulith_v12.tgz ftp://jdreesen.dyndns.org/ftp/Emulith/disks.tar.gz Jos From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sat Feb 21 15:13:22 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 22:13:22 +0100 Subject: WTS: AT&T 3B1 Olivetti branded with manuals and DEC Vaxstation 2000 storage box. Message-ID: I'm concentrating my collection on HP, so before I put it on epay: I want to sell or trade my working AT&T 3B1 Unix PC this one is co-branded with the Olivetti logo. I'm selling it together with 5 manuals and the original installation software (only disk two diagdisk is missing) The 3B1 is equiped with the DOS73 Co-processor board. Also I'm selling a VaxStation 2000 storage box inside is disc but I won't spin when power was applied. This could be a jumper issue but I sell it as non working. Photo's can be found at flickr http://www.flickr.com/photos/35618294 at N03/ Please contact me off-list . -Rik I'm located in the Netherlands. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 21 15:19:47 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 21:19:47 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Canon LPB-10 info sought. In-Reply-To: <499F190F.8010607@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel" at Feb 20, 9 09:56:47 pm Message-ID: > > Do you have any technical informaiton, particularly scheamtics of the > > Lilith interface? > > > I have general knowledge of the Lilith's IO structure, > and a bit of microcode that is targetted towards this printer. Is the microcode commented source? If so, what (human) language are the comments in? I might recognise soemthing in the comments -- signal names, etc -- that will help to sort out the interface. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 21 15:26:36 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 21:26:36 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Powering up a 20-year old MicroVAX II In-Reply-To: <002701c993ac$ec340560$c49c1020$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> from "Robert Jarratt" at Feb 20, 9 10:45:24 pm Message-ID: > > I have just collected a MicroVAX II which has been in storage and has not > been powered on for 20 years. This is my first machine of such an age, > unfortunately I am not particularly knowledgeable at the electronics level > (I studied circuits academically 25+ years ago and can solder a bit, but > that is as far as it goes). I know I will need to treat it carefully in > order to get it working again. I plan to open it up and make sure I clear > out any debris etc, but beyond that I need advice from those with the > experience and knowledge that I lack on how to go about powering it up > carefully. IMHO the most important thing to do after checking for obvious problems -- loose parts, evidence of overheating/burning, etc, is to test the power supply (PSU) on a dummy load. A defective PSU could wipe out every chip in the machine!. Since you're happy to dismantle the machine anyway, this should be quite easy. With all the PCBs out of the backplane (make notes/diagrams as to what goes where), and with the power cables unplugged from the drives, connect a 6V car bulb between the +5V line and the 0V line (you can find these by tracing back from the known Q-bus pinouts if you can't find them any other way) and power up. Mearue the 5V line with a voltmeter, and if possible the other power lines (if you can find them). Only when you know they're correct should you plug the logic boards in. Oh, I would recomend opening up the PSU (mains disconnected, of course), and looking for signs of trouble in there. And check all the fans are rotatig when you turn it all on -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Feb 21 15:32:27 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 21:32:27 +0000 (GMT) Subject: reasonable price for a working VT05? In-Reply-To: from "Henk Gooijen" at Feb 21, 9 11:58:31 am Message-ID: > Jup, I have, according to the tag at the rear side, a VT55-FB. > Till now I did not find the electrostatic paper for it. The terminal > has a printer built in at the righthand side. I beleive it's actually an electrolytic process. The paper is chemically treted, and is kept damp when in operation (there's a pad in the printer which you moisten with water). I also seem to remember you have to change the upper electrode after every roll of paper, it is disolved into the electrolyte when the printer is in operation. Somwehre I have a coupld of rolls of ppeer and electrodes. My own VT55 has the printer, and I've never managed to get it to work. It starts up correctly, the helix spins round, paper comes out, etc, but the paper is blank/ I've been told the paper deteriorates with time, an aof course it's all very old now. One day I'll get a round tuit and do some serious testing. -tony From innfoclassics at gmail.com Sat Feb 21 15:54:27 2009 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 13:54:27 -0800 Subject: =?iso-8859-7?q?Intel_=ECscope_820_from_1978_found_-_for_8085_mic?= =?iso-8859-7?q?roprocessor?= Message-ID: I just picked up an intel ?scope 820 with a date code of 1978. It came with the 8085 module and cables. Looks complete with manual but I have not tested it yet, I probably will. It was originally designed as a diagnostic tool for the 8080A. Unfortunately I did not get that module. It is in a plastic black carry case with the manual, 8085 overlay, 8085 module with a ZIF socket for the 8085 and a cable from the module that plugs into the original 8085 socket for the board under test. AC powered. To quote from the manual: The ?scope 820 is most easily described as three instruments combined into a single convenient test instrument. A minicomputer front panel. A microprocessors anayzer. A substitute program memory. I am planning on selling it so if you are interested please make offers. It is very clean and not abused at all. I would bet it has had very low use. This is the first time I have seen one of these even though we used to buy truckloads from intel in the early 1990s. Please contact me off list at paxton.hoag at gmail.com for offers or more information. I supose I should scan the docs, there are only about 35 pages. Paxton Astoria, Oregon USA From arcarlini at iee.org Sat Feb 21 16:04:43 2009 From: arcarlini at iee.org (arcarlini at iee.org) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 22:04:43 -0000 Subject: Powering up a 20-year old MicroVAX II In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <8DE0BDAA31354968BDE357F7ABFC544F@AntonioPC> cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > IMHO the most important thing to do after checking for > obvious problems > -- loose parts, evidence of overheating/burning, etc, is to test the > power supply (PSU) on a dummy load. A defective PSU could > wipe out every > chip in the machine!. In addition, pay particular attention to the PSU wiring harness. The early rev of harness on (iirc) the BA23 had a habit of catching light. I think it was slightly underrated for the maximum power load and so would deteriorate over time. It would eventually reach the point where one of the N conductors would fail, leaving N-1 carrying way too much load and smoke ensued. Field service were (again, iirc) supposed to swap these out if they came across them. But if your machine has truly not been used for twenty years, it ended up in storage relatively eraly in its life and so may not have had a chance for some FS TLC. A little bit of googling should find you the relevant details (or you could wait for the next post which will no doubt be from someone with much better memory than me :-)). The only other thing I would add to Tony's post is that once you think it isn't going to fry your boards (or burst into flames) then you only need the CPU and one memory board in. Then you hook up a terminal to the console (9600-8-N), set the switch properly and check that you get some kind of life on the console. At that point you can start to add the remaining boards (checking that Qbus grant continuity is OK as you go) and build your system back up again. There are plenty of docs you can track down on Manx (http:://vt100.net/manx). You can google for the various Micronotes too, some of them are relevant to the MicroVAX, others to the Qbus, and all of them are interesting background reading. Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From jdbryan at acm.org Sat Feb 21 18:02:00 2009 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 19:02:00 -0500 Subject: HP 64000 state analyzer manuals? Message-ID: Would anyone have any of the following HP 64000 logic development system manuals: 64635-90901 64635A State Data Probe Service Manual 64636-90901 64636A State Clock Probe Service Manual 64650-90905 General Purpose Preprocessor Service Manual 64650-90906 General Purpose Preprocessor Operating/Service Manual I have a 64000 and the 64620 state analyzer cards, and I want to build an HP-IB preprocessor interface. The theories of operation and schematics in the above manuals will help me with this. Thanks! -- Dave From rick at rickmurphy.net Sat Feb 21 19:41:00 2009 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 20:41:00 -0500 Subject: Powering up a 20-year old MicroVAX II In-Reply-To: <8DE0BDAA31354968BDE357F7ABFC544F@AntonioPC> References: <8DE0BDAA31354968BDE357F7ABFC544F@AntonioPC> Message-ID: <200902220141.n1M1f1QC020338@rickmurphy.net> At 05:04 PM 2/21/2009, arcarlini at iee.org wrote: >cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: > > IMHO the most important thing to do after checking for > > obvious problems > > -- loose parts, evidence of overheating/burning, etc, is to test the > > power supply (PSU) on a dummy load. A defective PSU could > > wipe out every > > chip in the machine!. > >In addition, pay particular attention to the PSU wiring harness. > >The early rev of harness on (iirc) the BA23 had a habit of >catching light. I think it was slightly underrated for the >maximum power load and so would deteriorate over time. It >would eventually reach the point where one of the N conductors >would fail, leaving N-1 carrying way too much load and smoke >ensued. > >Field service were (again, iirc) supposed to swap these out if >they came across them. But if your machine has truly not been used >for twenty years, it ended up in storage relatively eraly in its >life and so may not have had a chance for some FS TLC. > >A little bit of googling should find you the relevant details >(or you could wait for the next post which will no doubt be >from someone with much better memory than me :-)). If the cables between your power supply and the backplane are ribbon cables with IDC connectors, they can overheat (often you'll find them showing discoloration.) If they're separate wires with white connector blocks, you have the updated harnesses. I haven't seen this problem with BA23 boxes, but have seen several BA123 boxes with signs of overheating. -Rick From robo58 at optonline.net Sat Feb 21 20:02:24 2009 From: robo58 at optonline.net (ROBO5.8) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 21:02:24 -0500 Subject: Wanted Z80 In Circuit Emulator for Loan/Rent/Buy In-Reply-To: <1235221070.7034.1.camel@homer> References: <20090129214801.GN27880@n0jcf.net> <49832AC4.18605.6D3416BA@cclist.sydex.com> <002701c983a3$1db32f40$59198dc0$@net> <4983EE36.1295.702F89E7@cclist.sydex.com> <005c01c99371$94f37320$beda5960$@net> <1235221070.7034.1.camel@homer> Message-ID: <004f01c99491$9ad1f6b0$d075e410$@net> Wow. Three Steve's with In Circuit Emulators, what are the odds on that. Thank you for your offers of assistance. I am trying to debug a random loss of program control. The problem is repeatable but it takes many cycles for it to occur. I believe I need an In-Circuit Emulator with good full speed trace capabilities for a 4Mhz Z80. Something that would allow me to stop the emulator at the point of the random error and then go backwards through the code execution trace buffer to learn what occurred. Could you let me know if your emulators offer such capabilities? Thanks Robo From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sat Feb 21 20:25:16 2009 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 20:25:16 -0600 Subject: Wanted Z80 In Circuit Emulator for Loan/Rent/Buy In-Reply-To: <004f01c99491$9ad1f6b0$d075e410$@net> References: <20090129214801.GN27880@n0jcf.net> <49832AC4.18605.6D3416BA@cclist.sydex.com> <002701c983a3$1db32f40$59198dc0$@net> <4983EE36.1295.702F89E7@cclist.sydex.com> <005c01c99371$94f37320$beda5960$@net> <1235221070.7034.1.camel@homer> <004f01c99491$9ad1f6b0$d075e410$@net> Message-ID: Just a general maybe way off the wall comment. I have done this several times, and hand wired lots of z80s. In every case where its a almost run, it is power. Have you put a scope on vcc and see that its rock solid? You describe a random case it fails at different points, this has to be either power to cpu, or buffers and eproms not presenting the cpu with valid data. There is no other cause, and a emulator wont help you find it. This is hardware, look at, with 2 probes the buffered I/O on each bit (in, signal, out signal). Brute force replace any buffer drivers. Who else is on the same wire, remove any shared bussed devices, I hope they are sockets. The problem that it is chip failures is almost zero. It is power, a bad decouple cap somewhere, like when all address lines roll and the buffer chip pulls a slug, sagging the rest down. Look at all address and data lines on the scope, should be a clean cat eye with never a trace in the middle or floating. This is fun stuff, enjoy. Randy > Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 21:02:24 -0500 > From: robo58 at optonline.net > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > CC: > Subject: RE: Wanted Z80 In Circuit Emulator for Loan/Rent/Buy > > > Wow. Three Steve's with In Circuit Emulators, what are the odds on that. > > Thank you for your offers of assistance. > > I am trying to debug a random loss of program control. The problem is > repeatable but it takes many cycles for it to occur. > > I believe I need an In-Circuit Emulator with good full speed trace > capabilities for a 4Mhz Z80. Something that would allow me to stop the > emulator at the point of the random error and then go backwards through the > code execution trace buffer to learn what occurred. > > Could you let me know if your emulators offer such capabilities? > > Thanks Robo > _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live?: Discover 10 secrets about the new Windows Live. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!7540.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_t2_ugc_post_022009 From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sat Feb 21 21:30:14 2009 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 21:30:14 -0600 Subject: Antikythera fans Message-ID: wondering if you guys love this as much as I do. I would like to make a user group/club for it if there is enough interest For myself, I am fully equipped here with machine capability and stage one is to make the model (2005) as currently known. Stage 2 is heck make these in volume, its a marvelous thing and may be profitable. You cannot find a better classic computer than this. Randy Dawson _________________________________________________________________ Access your email online and on the go with Windows Live Hotmail. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_AE_Access_022009 From evan at snarc.net Sat Feb 21 21:35:04 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 22:35:04 -0500 Subject: Antikythera fans In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001b01c9949e$8e827df0$0301a8c0@evan> Before doing anything Antikythera-related, you and anyone interested * MUST * read the (relatively new) book by Jo Marchant, called "Decoding the Heavens" .... it is 99% excellent. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Randy Dawson Sent: Saturday, February 21, 2009 10:30 PM To: classic computers Subject: Antikythera fans wondering if you guys love this as much as I do. I would like to make a user group/club for it if there is enough interest For myself, I am fully equipped here with machine capability and stage one is to make the model (2005) as currently known. Stage 2 is heck make these in volume, its a marvelous thing and may be profitable. You cannot find a better classic computer than this. Randy Dawson _________________________________________________________________ Access your email online and on the go with Windows Live Hotmail. http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_AE_Access_022009= From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Feb 21 21:35:09 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 20:35:09 -0700 Subject: Antikythera fans In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49A0C7ED.3070100@jetnet.ab.ca> Randy Dawson wrote: > wondering if you guys love this as much as I do. > > I would like to make a user group/club for it if there is enough interest > > For myself, I am fully equipped here with machine capability and stage one is to make the model (2005) as currently known. > > Stage 2 is heck make these in volume, its a marvelous thing and may be profitable. > > You cannot find a better classic computer than this. I consider stonehenge the classic computer. > Randy Dawson From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Feb 21 21:37:15 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 21:37:15 -0600 Subject: Powering up a 20-year old MicroVAX II In-Reply-To: <200902220141.n1M1f1QC020338@rickmurphy.net> References: <8DE0BDAA31354968BDE357F7ABFC544F@AntonioPC> <200902220141.n1M1f1QC020338@rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 7:41 PM, Rick Murphy wrote: > If the cables between your power supply and the backplane are ribbon cables > with IDC connectors, they can overheat (often you'll find them showing > discoloration.) If they're separate wires with white connector blocks, you > have the updated harnesses. Confirmed. > I haven't seen this problem with BA23 boxes, but have seen several BA123 > boxes with signs of overheating. We had a MicroVAX I that was FS-converted to a MicroVAX II ($20K, IIRC, for boards, disk and license upgrades). When we finally traced the acrid smell in the testing area, we found that the middle 25% of the contacts on the IDC cable were charred, and, I think, the connector housing itself broke apart when the cable was removed. It may have helped that we had a totally-loaded BA23 since we needed 9MB of memory, serial, tape, *plus* room for our own 3rd party board. There wasn't an empty slot in the machine. The good news is that I still have that same machine and it still works just fine 20+ years later, with the replacement DC power harness. -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Feb 21 21:39:37 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 19:39:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Antikythera fans In-Reply-To: <49A0C7ED.3070100@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <49A0C7ED.3070100@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20090221193852.K80282@shell.lmi.net> > > You cannot find a better classic computer than this. On Sat, 21 Feb 2009, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > I consider stonehenge the classic computer. The Antikythera is the classic PDA? From josefcub at gmail.com Sat Feb 21 21:52:10 2009 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 21:52:10 -0600 Subject: Antikythera fans In-Reply-To: <20090221193852.K80282@shell.lmi.net> References: <49A0C7ED.3070100@jetnet.ab.ca> <20090221193852.K80282@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <9e2403920902211952k1ec8efbcr451ee81f7641d69a@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Feb 21, 2009 at 9:39 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > The Antikythera is the classic PDA? Naw, more like an early GPS device. =3 -- "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein From evan at snarc.net Sat Feb 21 21:54:01 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 22:54:01 -0500 Subject: Antikythera fans In-Reply-To: <49A0C7ED.3070100@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <001c01c994a1$34099ae0$0301a8c0@evan> >>> You cannot find a better classic computer than this. I'm not convinced it is an analog computer. Marchant addresses this in her book. She sought the opinion of Doron Swade, who built the replica Babbage machine and wrote his book "The Cogwheel Brain" about it. Doron said he DOES consider the A.D. to be a computer. But he, Sellam, and I traded a few emails on this subject, and we three all agree it's open to debate. In my opinion, it comes down to the question of input / variables. Otehr than how much its operator turns the crank, the A.D. does not have any variable input. So I say it's not actually "computing" anything because no matter what you do, its output is fixed. From steerex at ccvn.com Sat Feb 21 06:57:50 2009 From: steerex at ccvn.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 07:57:50 -0500 Subject: Wanted Z80 In Circuit Emulator for Loan/Rent/Buy In-Reply-To: <005c01c99371$94f37320$beda5960$@net> References: <20090129214801.GN27880@n0jcf.net> <49832AC4.18605.6D3416BA@cclist.sydex.com> <002701c983a3$1db32f40$59198dc0$@net> <4983EE36.1295.702F89E7@cclist.sydex.com> <005c01c99371$94f37320$beda5960$@net> Message-ID: <1235221070.7034.1.camel@homer> On Fri, 2009-02-20 at 10:40 -0500, ROBO5.8 wrote: > Hi, > > I am looking to borrow, rent or possibly purchase a working Z80 In-Circuit > Emulator. > > If anyone has one I would appreciate their assistance. > > Thanks Robo > Yo, I don't have an emulator but I do have a "Prolog M824 Z-80 System Analyzer" that I'd be willing to part with. I haven't plugged in in this millennium but, I'd be willing to bet it still works. I have the pod with the CPU clip, and original briefcase style carrying case, but no manuals. It's in excellent condition. Doh... I was wrong. I do have an in circuit emulator "somewhere". It's a small box that plugs into the Z80's socket. It has a RS232 interface for programming and a monitor/assembler in ROM. Once again, I haven't powered it up in many years but, believe it would still work. I do have a manual for this thing "somewhere". I used the emulator on a small STD BUS project I was working on and it did a great job. It's an excellent tool for low-level debugging and hardware development. Sorry, I can't give them away but, If you're interested in making a "reasonable" offer, contact me off list. Steve Robertson steerex [at] ccvn [dot] com From AA1RONHAM at aol.com Sat Feb 21 07:19:44 2009 From: AA1RONHAM at aol.com (AA1RONHAM at aol.com) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 08:19:44 EST Subject: (no subject) Message-ID: Hi Brian: My Dad's secretary just gave me the 200 in 1 Science Fair electronics kit, (28-249) but there is no instruction manual. I found your old post (below) and wondered if you still had the pdf for this manual. Thank you very much. Aaron Radio Shack Science Fair manuals YahooMagneticSci Guy magneticsciguy at yahoo.com Sat Nov 4 19:39:00 CST 2006 Previous message: OT: Where have electronics hobby stores gone? Next message: New monitors on old machines Messages sorted by: [ date ][ thread ][ subject ][ author ] Do you know of a group(s) exchanging Radio ShackScience Fair manuals?I'm thinking of rolling all of these into torrent(s)as I get them collected.I have manuals (that I can scan in, in a few phases)for:28-249 "200 in 1"28-267 "75 in One"& need manuals28-245 "20 in 1" 28-259 "130 in One" Thanks much!Brian ************** A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1218822736x1201267884/aol?redir=http:%2F%2Fwww.freecredi treport.com%2Fpm%2Fdefault.aspx%3Fsc%3D668072%26hmpgID%3D62%26bcd%3Dfebemailfo oterNO62) From chrise at pobox.com Sat Feb 21 06:46:57 2009 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 06:46:57 -0600 Subject: MICRAL documents In-Reply-To: <499F2BA7.4060909@bitsavers.org> References: <499F2BA7.4060909@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20090221124657.GA8109@n0jcf.net> On Friday (02/20/2009 at 02:16PM -0800), Al Kossow wrote: > Some people asked about it on comp.os.cpm, so there are a few MICRAL > documents up on http://bitsavers.org/pdf/r2e now. Hey... cool. When I was in highschool, I worked several summers for Multi-Tech Systems, Inc. here in St. Paul. Most people probably know them for their modems... In about 1979, we were building a clone of an R2E system-- or at least there was some business arrangement that I did not know the details of-- but this system was a Z80 based, S-100 design with integral CRT, dual floppy (Micropolis 1015 II with Micropolis controller at first) and it ran CP/M. The cabinet was like 1/4" steel and weighed an absolute ton. I remember having a lot of problems with the power supply transformer (which also weighed a ton) being too close to the deflection coils on the CRT and it causing a beat in the video. In the end, I think they fixed this by getting the CRT controller to actually use a 60 Hz vertical refresh instead of something that was slightly off. Anyway, the CPU board was laid out by hand-- I mean, like, drawn with a pen-- so you have traces that follow round corners and have no uniform spacing between them when they are bussed. It looks really sad. But-- it mostly worked... and in fact, I still have one of these CPU boards, the hideous power supply, a pair of the Micropolis 1015-II drives and the controller. The whole thing is built into a wood box with a formica front panel. I ended up writing a lot of BIOS / PROM code for that machine before I was even out of highschool. In the formica computer, I used the serial port for the console and connected an H19 terminal to make a decent CP/M system from it. I'll fire this thing up someday soon... I'm sure the crappy power supply will need some work. I do still have schematics, a user manual and a lot of software on 16-hole, hard sector floppies. At one time, I believe Multi-Tech and R2E America shared the same office on University Ave-- or someone at Multi-Tech was the R2E connection. It might be interesting to track down that history in a little more detail. Chris -- Chris Elmquist mailto:chrise at pobox.com From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Feb 21 13:16:33 2009 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 19:16:33 -0000 Subject: Powering up a 20-year old MicroVAX II In-Reply-To: <002701c993ac$ec340560$c49c1020$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> References: <002701c993ac$ec340560$c49c1020$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <000f01c99458$e9b47340$bd1d59c0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Robert Jarratt > Sent: 20 February 2009 22:45 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Powering up a 20-year old MicroVAX II > > I have just collected a MicroVAX II which has been in storage and has > not > been powered on for 20 years. This is my first machine of such an age, > unfortunately I am not particularly knowledgeable at the electronics > level > (I studied circuits academically 25+ years ago and can solder a bit, > but > that is as far as it goes). I know I will need to treat it carefully in > order to get it working again. I plan to open it up and make sure I > clear > out any debris etc, but beyond that I need advice from those with the > experience and knowledge that I lack on how to go about powering it up > carefully. > > > > Thanks > > > > Rob After removing all the boards and leaving just the disk and tape drive for load I impetuously decided to try powering it up. I knew the PSU (model H7864) was set for 110V and made the switch to 240V (I am in the UK). When I connected the power cord, after a few moments there was a loud pop, followed by another before I could pull out the power cord, smoke rose from the PSU. This sounded just like when I had once accidentally made a 110/240 mix-up. The question is, could it be that I had not made the switch to 240 correctly, or could this just be down to the age of the PSU? Regards Rob From philip at axeside.co.uk Sat Feb 21 14:11:31 2009 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 20:11:31 +0000 Subject: Advice for Tek 4051 vector-drawing issue? In-Reply-To: <499E4528.6090106@mail.msu.edu> References: <499144EE.3020002@mail.msu.edu> <499158D2.2020301@philpem.me.uk> <49924848.1080601@mail.msu.edu> <49930A69.504@philpem.me.uk> <4993B0D7.9030504@mail.msu.edu> <4994BDA2.5020701@philpem.me.uk> <4994E67B.6030308@mail.msu.edu> <499E4528.6090106@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <49A05FF3.6080704@axeside.co.uk> > Now if there was only some software archived for this thing :). Guess > I'll have to write something really cool to show off the cool display > now... Oh, but there is. A lot of it is on paper, not electronic, but I did type in the winning Christmas card program. I've also written some fractals, and started work on a map projections suite. I'm not sure how best to get the stuff to you, though. Maybe the best way is for me to record a tape and post it. (Heavy, though :-( ) I got my 4052 talking to a Commodore 8050 disk drive, though, so if you can get hold of one of those, we might be able to exchange stuff on disk. (Using a 405x with an 8050 is a PAIN. You send all the commands to the drive to find the file and be ready to load it. You then type OLD at 8 and what does the machine do? Why, asserts IFC, of course. But there are ways around this. I wonder if I can find my notes...) Anyway, let me know if you're interested, and what sort of stuff you'd like, and I'll see what I can do. Philip. From rikbos at xs4all.nl Sat Feb 21 14:56:57 2009 From: rikbos at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 21:56:57 +0100 Subject: WTS: AT&T 3B1 Olivetti branded with manuals and DEC Vaxstation 2000 storage box. Message-ID: <0855838983554C6084A5D25E32DF7102@xp1800> I'm concentrating my collection on HP, so before I put it on epay: I want to sell or trade my working AT&T 3B1 Unix PC this one is co-branded with the Olivetti logo. I'm selling it together with 5 manuals and the original installation software (only disk two diagdisk is missing) The 3B1 is equiped with the DOS73 Co-processor board. Also I'm selling a VaxStation 2000 storage box inside is disc but I won't spin when power was applied. This could be a jumper issue but I sell it as non working. Photo's can be found at flickr http://www.flickr.com/photos/35618294 at N03/ Please react off-list -Rik I'm located in the Netherlands. From les at hildenbrandt.com Sat Feb 21 16:09:39 2009 From: les at hildenbrandt.com (Les Hildenbrandt) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 15:09:39 -0700 Subject: 8088 vs. 80c88 In-Reply-To: <200902211801.n1LI1E9l070452@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200902211801.n1LI1E9l070452@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <49A07BA3.2040103@hildenbrandt.com> > The problem with the V20's 8080 emulation was that it was buggy (I > have a few MicroNotes on the subject and can even claim to have > discovered one of the bugs). I wonder if it was only cetain chips. I ran cp/m 80 on a v20 for years. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Feb 21 18:59:52 2009 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 19:59:52 -0500 Subject: Powering up a 20-year old MicroVAX II Message-ID: <0KFG00I3V02DN0VG@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: RE: Powering up a 20-year old MicroVAX II > From: > Date: Sat, 21 Feb 2009 22:04:43 +0000 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > >cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org wrote: >> IMHO the most important thing to do after checking for >> obvious problems >> -- loose parts, evidence of overheating/burning, etc, is to test the >> power supply (PSU) on a dummy load. A defective PSU could >> wipe out every >> chip in the machine!. > >In addition, pay particular attention to the PSU wiring harness. > >The early rev of harness on (iirc) the BA23 had a habit of >catching light. I think it was slightly underrated for the >maximum power load and so would deteriorate over time. It >would eventually reach the point where one of the N conductors >would fail, leaving N-1 carrying way too much load and smoke >ensued. > Correct the worng harness has unequal length wires and the correct one has equal length wires. The harness in question goes from the Backplane to the PS. The problem is with unequal length wires the connectors were sharing the load unequaly and the connecotr would overheat and fail sequentially. It was more of a problem on highly loaded boxes. >Field service were (again, iirc) supposed to swap these out if >they came across them. But if your machine has truly not been used >for twenty years, it ended up in storage relatively eraly in its >life and so may not have had a chance for some FS TLC. 20 years is maybe on the wire. It may have been already replaced. > >A little bit of googling should find you the relevant details >(or you could wait for the next post which will no doubt be >from someone with much better memory than me :-)). > >The only other thing I would add to Tony's post is that once >you think it isn't going to fry your boards (or burst into flames) >then you only need the CPU and one memory board in. Then you hook >up a terminal to the console (9600-8-N), set the switch properly >and check that you get some kind of life on the console. It doesnt bust into flames, it can overheat to the extent of destroying the connectors and smoke some. In this day and age cookingthe backplane connector is a real pain as spares are getting scarce. Allison >At that point you can start to add the remaining boards (checking >that Qbus grant continuity is OK as you go) and build your system >back up again. > >There are plenty of docs you can track down on Manx >(http:://vt100.net/manx). >You can google for the various Micronotes too, some of them are relevant >to the MicroVAX, others to the Qbus, and all of them are interesting >background reading. > >Antonio >arcarlini at iee.org > > From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun Feb 22 05:39:11 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 11:39:11 +0000 Subject: Powering up a 20-year old MicroVAX II In-Reply-To: <000f01c99458$e9b47340$bd1d59c0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> References: <002701c993ac$ec340560$c49c1020$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> <000f01c99458$e9b47340$bd1d59c0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <49A1395F.9060904@gjcp.net> Robert Jarratt wrote: > The question is, could it be that I had not made the switch to 240 > correctly, or could this just be down to the age of the PSU? > Mains filter cap. Gordon From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Sun Feb 22 06:02:27 2009 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 13:02:27 +0100 Subject: AT&T 3B1 Olivetti branded with manuals and DEC Vaxstation 2000storage box. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <95DD13F0B8964AF28FE63F3ABA097C4E@xp1800> Excuses for the wrong URL the right one is : http://www.flickr.com/photos/hp-fix/ > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Rik Bos > Verzonden: zaterdag 21 februari 2009 22:13 > Aan: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Onderwerp: WTS: AT&T 3B1 Olivetti branded with manuals and > DEC Vaxstation 2000storage box. > > I'm concentrating my collection on HP, so before I > put it on epay: > > > I want to sell or trade my working AT&T 3B1 Unix PC this one > is co-branded with the Olivetti logo. > I'm selling it together with 5 manuals and the original > installation software (only disk two diagdisk is missing) The > 3B1 is equiped with the DOS73 Co-processor board. > > Also I'm selling a VaxStation 2000 storage box inside is disc > but I won't spin when power was applied. > This could be a jumper issue but I sell it as non working. > > Photo's can be found at flickr > http://www.flickr.com/photos/35618294 at N03/ > > Please contact me off-list . > -Rik > > I'm located in the Netherlands. > From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Sun Feb 22 09:24:36 2009 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 10:24:36 -0500 Subject: Antikythera fans In-Reply-To: <49A0C7ED.3070100@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200902221524.n1MFOb0V078465@keith.ezwind.net> On Sat, 21 Feb 2009 20:35:09 -0700, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >Randy Dawson wrote: >> You cannot find a better classic computer than this. >I consider stonehenge the classic computer. I agree. Stonehenge uses base 56 interger math to calculate eclipses. See: http://www.eclipse-chasers.com/tseStonehenge.html The other Bob From js at cimmeri.com Sun Feb 22 09:54:14 2009 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 10:54:14 -0500 Subject: Powering up a 20-year old MicroVAX II In-Reply-To: <200902220955.n1M9tDpo083197@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200902220955.n1M9tDpo083197@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <49A17526.50607@cimmeri.com> -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Robert Jarratt > Sent: 20 February 2009 22:45 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Powering up a 20-year old MicroVAX II > > I have just collected a MicroVAX II which has been in storage and has > not > been powered on for 20 years. This is my first machine of such an age, > unfortunately I am not particularly knowledgeable at the electronics > level > (I studied circuits academically 25+ years ago and can solder a bit, > but > that is as far as it goes). I know I will need to treat it carefully in > order to get it working again. I plan to open it up and make sure I > clear > out any debris etc, but beyond that I need advice from those with the > experience and knowledge that I lack on how to go about powering it up > carefully. > Thanks Rob > After removing all the boards and leaving just the disk and tape drive for load I impetuously decided to try powering it up. I knew the PSU (model H7864) was set for 110V and made the switch to 240V (I am in the UK). When I connected the power cord, after a few moments there was a loud pop, followed by another before I could pull out the power cord, smoke rose from the PSU. This sounded just like when I had once accidentally made a 110/240 mix-up. The question is, could it be that I had not made the switch to 240 correctly, or could this just be down to the age of the PSU? ---- *Rob, possibly you made the 110/240 switch wrong, but also possible is that the PSU just wasn't ready to be turned on like that. Electrolytic Capacitors (of which there are many in that PSU) tend towards non-functionality the longer they sit unused. Without those caps working right, the PSU will do pops, smokes, and other alarming things. Then good luck fixing it. What I do with an old PSU like that is test each cap prior to it ever being powered up.. both for capacitance and ESR. Usually, some or all of the caps need reforming or even replacement. Only after the caps are back to health, do I then give the PSU power... at first with the smallest load I can get away with. If it's a switcher PSU (as that one is), I'll bring it up quickly to about 90V using a variac... then in 5V increments every 1/2 hr after that to 130V, then back down to 120V. This in the USA. jS * From ragooman at comcast.net Sun Feb 22 10:03:04 2009 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 11:03:04 -0500 Subject: Antikythera fans In-Reply-To: <001c01c994a1$34099ae0$0301a8c0@evan> References: <001c01c994a1$34099ae0$0301a8c0@evan> Message-ID: <49A17738.5060801@comcast.net> Evan Koblentz wrote: > Otehr than how much its operator turns the crank, the > A.D. does not have any variable input. So I say it's not actually > "computing" anything because no matter what you do, its output is fixed. > It's important to put it into perspective--you can debate for hours if you don't first use the proper context related to computing design. Each time a gear turns, it _is_ 'calculating.' The amount of turns is your 'variable input' You, the person, are the 'computer' Remember the room full of ladies slaving over the adding machines --they were the 'computers'--not the adding machines. e.g. step.1:Enter data, step.2:Calculate Data, step.4:Store Data, step.5:Repeat, Although, building a replica is a good challenge. You need very good detailed plans of the design--which should be "open source" =Dan -- [ = http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sun Feb 22 10:11:29 2009 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 08:11:29 -0800 (PST) Subject: Powering up a 20-year old MicroVAX II In-Reply-To: <49A17526.50607@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <842851.94746.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Sun, 2/22/09, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > After removing all the boards and leaving just the disk and > tape drive for > load I impetuously decided to try powering it up. I knew > the PSU (model > H7864) was set for 110V and made the switch to 240V (I am > in the UK). When I > connected the power cord, after a few moments there was a > loud pop, followed > by another before I could pull out the power cord, smoke > rose from the PSU. > This sounded just like when I had once accidentally made a > 110/240 mix-up. > > The question is, could it be that I had not made the switch > to 240 > correctly, or could this just be down to the age of the > PSU? Could be. What cabinet is this in? A BA123? Those have two power supplies. One for the disks and half the cards in the backplane, the other for the other half of the backplane, and perhaps fans. I forget the distribution. But when you remove the power supply, you'll see that there are two seperate boards there. You may very well have blown up one because of improper voltage - or perhaps you didn't have it loaded enough. Old switchmode supplies need a load in order to work properly. Normally, they just don't output voltage, but I've seen them burn up before. -Ian From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Sun Feb 22 10:34:55 2009 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 08:34:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: PDP 11/35 EIS option Message-ID: <206150.22063.qm@web56202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Hi, Does anyone have a KE11-E (or KE11-F for that matter) available. This is a UNIBUS board for the PDP 11/35 or 11/40 which provides the extended instruction set. Part number is M7238 Thanks Ian. From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Feb 22 10:51:00 2009 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 08:51:00 -0800 Subject: PDP 11/35 EIS option In-Reply-To: <206150.22063.qm@web56202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <206150.22063.qm@web56202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I may have some in my stocks. I'd have to go back and look (but I haven't had a lot of time recently). I also don't know as to their functional state (I have a known good one but that's in my 11/40). I have a KE11-F (it's the only one I've ever seen so no it's not for sale) but it doesn't pass diagnostics and I haven't found any prints on it (Al?). TTFN - Guy On Feb 22, 2009, at 8:34 AM, silvercreekvalley wrote: > > Hi, > > Does anyone have a KE11-E (or KE11-F for that matter) > available. This is a UNIBUS board for the PDP > 11/35 or 11/40 which provides the extended instruction > set. > > Part number is M7238 > > Thanks > > Ian. > > > > > From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Sun Feb 22 11:06:01 2009 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 18:06:01 +0100 Subject: Canon LPB-10 info sought. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49A185F9.6050504@bluewin.ch> the microcode commented source? If so, what (human) language are the > comments in? > > I might recognise soemthing in the comments -- signal names, etc -- that > will help to sort out the interface. > > -tony > I put up the microcode and the printerdriver i have found in the meantime here : ftp://jdreesen.dyndns.org/ftp/Documents/Printer Basically the microcode implements some extra Mcode instructions that are then uses in the printerdriver. It does indeed look like there is a big bitmap being build in memory. I still have trouble understanding it, Jos From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 22 11:42:21 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 09:42:21 -0800 Subject: 8088 vs. 80c88 In-Reply-To: <49A07BA3.2040103@hildenbrandt.com> References: <200902211801.n1LI1E9l070452@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <49A07BA3.2040103@hildenbrandt.com> Message-ID: <49A11DFD.6047.3DCDF5C0@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Feb 2009 at 15:09, Les Hildenbrandt wrote: > > The problem with the V20's 8080 emulation was that it was buggy (I > > have a few MicroNotes on the subject and can even claim to have > > discovered one of the bugs). > > I wonder if it was only cetain chips. I ran cp/m 80 on a v20 for years. Try running a program in CP/M with JRT Pascal 1.0 on a V20. CPU bugs can be very subtle. Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Sun Feb 22 12:11:43 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 11:11:43 -0700 Subject: Advice for Tek 4051 vector-drawing issue? In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 21 Feb 2009 20:11:31 +0000. <49A05FF3.6080704@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: In article <49A05FF3.6080704 at axeside.co.uk>, Philip Belben writes: > > Now if there was only some software archived for this thing :). Guess > > I'll have to write something really cool to show off the cool display > > now... > > Oh, but there is. A lot of it is on paper, not electronic, but I did > type in the winning Christmas card program. I've also written some > fractals, and started work on a map projections suite. > > I'm not sure how best to get the stuff to you, though. I guess the best way to get data transferred from these systems is to use the GPIB interface and transfer the programs out of the system and into the internet. I wonder if the easiest would be to use a Commodore GPIB compatable floppy drive or something. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Feb 22 12:13:33 2009 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 12:13:33 -0600 Subject: Antikythera fans In-Reply-To: <49A0C7ED.3070100@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <49A0C7ED.3070100@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <49A195CD.6060607@gmail.com> bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >> You cannot find a better classic computer than this. > > I consider stonehenge the classic computer. It'll be the mainframe wars all over again... :-) I'd be up for joining some sort of Antikythera group, I think... J. From lproven at gmail.com Sun Feb 22 12:46:39 2009 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 18:46:39 +0000 Subject: CiscoPro 761 ISDN router Message-ID: <575131af0902221046h16394d89u58129adee891291b@mail.gmail.com> Standalone ISDN to Ethernet router. Like a modern ADSL one, but this is for digital dialup. Handy for a relative with no ADSL coverage, perhaps? Bare unit - no PSU. Offered for free to anyone who will pay postage or can collect. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat, Yahoo & Skype: liamproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508 From vern4wright at yahoo.com Sun Feb 22 13:00:27 2009 From: vern4wright at yahoo.com (Vernon Wright) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 11:00:27 -0800 (PST) Subject: Antikythera fans In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <49832.56370.qm@web65514.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> I have a life-long interest in the Antikythera mechanism (whether or not it is called analog or digital, or the earliest or not). I don't have my shop back in working condition yet and have limited time. That apart, I am very interested. Vern --- On Sat, 2/21/09, Randy Dawson wrote: > From: Randy Dawson > Subject: Antikythera fans > To: "classic computers" > Date: Saturday, February 21, 2009, 7:30 PM > wondering if you guys love this as much as I do. > > I would like to make a user group/club for it if there is > enough interest > > For myself, I am fully equipped here with machine > capability and stage one is to make the model (2005) as > currently known. > > Stage 2 is heck make these in volume, its a marvelous thing > and may be profitable. > > You cannot find a better classic computer than this. > > Randy Dawson > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Access your email online and on the go with Windows Live > Hotmail. > http://windowslive.com/online/hotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_AE_Access_022009 From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sun Feb 22 13:06:15 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 11:06:15 -0800 Subject: Advice for Tek 4051 vector-drawing issue? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49A1A227.10605@mail.msu.edu> Richard wrote: > >>> .. >>> >> Oh, but there is. A lot of it is on paper, not electronic, but I did >> type in the winning Christmas card program. I've also written some >> fractals, and started work on a map projections suite. >> >> I'm not sure how best to get the stuff to you, though. >> > > I guess the best way to get data transferred from these systems is to > use the GPIB interface and transfer the programs out of the system and > into the internet. I wonder if the easiest would be to use a > Commodore GPIB compatable floppy drive or something. > Or over the optional RS-232 expansion (at a whopping 2400bps). I've been experimenting with this idea for archiving 405x tapes (and Bob Rosenbloom has offered to lend me a couple of tapes to play with) but the major catch is that the 4051 appears to _only_ be programmable in BASIC -- there's no PEEK/POKE or ways to call user 6800 machine code. This wouldn't be a problem except that it's possible to protect tape files with the "SECRET" command -- this makes a given file execute-only, so it appears to be impossible to read the contents of the file using BASIC commands. I'm guessing that most (if not all) commercial software tapes are protected in such a manner, but I suppose I'll find out. I'm looking into whether if it's possible to adapt one of the "backpack" expansions to take EPROMs instead of MCM6832 ROMs. Anyone done this before? Given a bit of hacking it'd then be possible to write some 6800 code to do a binary dump of the tapes, bypassing the protection mechanisms. - Josh From ragooman at comcast.net Sun Feb 22 13:12:02 2009 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 14:12:02 -0500 Subject: Searching for Disassembly pods for Tek 1230 Logic Analyzer Message-ID: <49A1A382.5020805@comcast.net> Just wondering if anyone might know of any Disassembly pods for a Tek 1230 Logic Analyzer lying around somewhere. I keep searching the usual places online--but maybe someone knows a better place. I'm currently using the 6502 Disassembly pod and 48 channels, I like to try and get the Z80 pod or others if available. thanks =Dan -- [ = http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] From vrs at msn.com Sun Feb 22 13:19:24 2009 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 11:19:24 -0800 Subject: Wanted: DEC Computer Lab manuals References: Message-ID: From: "Ethan Dicks" Sent: Friday, January 23, 2009 2:14 PM > On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 4:36 PM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: >> They are not ordinary, at least I haven't been able to find any like >> them. >> They are brass taper pins, about .093" at the tip and about 0.1" >> higher up. The brass part is important. I tried using the regular .093" >> pins and splaying the backside slightly, but it did not work as well, and >> the steel or whatever the new pins are made of scratches up the little >> brass >> rings. > > Ah... important to know! I had thought the eyelets to be steel, but > it sounds like they are plated brass, then. > > I had been considering trying molex pins, but apparently that's going > to be a poor choice. I gave up looking around for appropriate taper pins, and finally today I took the time to follow up on another idea that I had. Basically, I made a plaster molding of a pair of the taper pins, and then I took some stripped, stranded wire, tinned it, and then stuck it in the plaster mold, and flowed 63/37 solder down the length to fill the mold. It's not trivial to get the solder to flow the whole length and cleanly fill the mold (especially as at first the rosin needs to bubble out), But I was able to do it, and got a "taper pin" on each end of the wire that has the right shape, is adequately smooth and soft, and seems to work nicely. Of course, it is the silvery color of tin-lead solder, rather than the brass color of the originals, but it is fairly affordable and reasonably easy to make. Vince BTW, you'll wish you'd used some sort of mold-release when making the plaster mold, even though they are taper pins. I didn't, because I wasn't sure what could be used that wouldn't leave an insulating film on the original taper pins when I was done. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 22 13:13:12 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 19:13:12 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Canon LPB-10 info sought. In-Reply-To: <49A185F9.6050504@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel" at Feb 22, 9 06:06:01 pm Message-ID: > I put up the microcode and the printerdriver i have found in the > meantime here : > > ftp://jdreesen.dyndns.org/ftp/Documents/Printer OK, I'll take a look sometime, and see if I recognise anything. > > Basically the microcode implements some extra Mcode instructions that > are then uses in the printerdriver. > > It does indeed look like there is a big bitmap being build in memory. > I still have trouble understanding it, This does not suprise me. Rmemeber that with a laser printer, once you've started the page (got the paper moving, etc), you can't pause midway through. You have to keep on feeding data to the laser at the right rate. So either you have to build up the entire bitmap before you start the page, or be sure you can do so on the fly quickly enough. Some early stand-alone laser printers with limited RAM did the latter -- they didn't have enough RAM to store a full-page bitmap. So you couldn't print full-page graphics. Text could be turned from ASCII codes to bitmaps on the fly, ginen a itmapped font. But anyway... These early workstations obvious worked with bitmapped data in memory for the video display. In the case of the PERQ (which I am more familiar with), there was hardware and microcdoe to do bitmap updates. And it made sense ot use that for producing the printer bitmapped image, rather than to use spearare hardware in the printer itself. Hence the low-level interface. I can tell you a little about the CX-VDO interface, which may be somewhat simuilar. There's a bit-serial comamnd/status interface, which is used to do things like select the manual feeder, report errors (out of paper, etc). At firt you cna probably ignore this. There are 3 signals involved with starting a page. I forget the names, but basicalkly they work like this : 1) A signal from the cotnroller to the printer causes the printer to start the main drive motor and scanenr motor, and get the speed control PLLs locked. Then the paper pickup clutch is engaged and the top sheet of papepr is taken from the tray as far as the registration shutter 2) At this point the printer asserts a vertical synchronisation signal back to the controller. The cotnrol has to respond within a certain (short-ish) time, or the printer will time out with a paper jam (?) error 3) The controller asserts another signal. At this point the registration shutter opens, and the paper starts moving towards the drum. The controller waits a suitable time (actually counts Beam dectect pulses, I think) to skip the top margin, and then starts sending the bitmap, synchronsied by the beam detect pulses (which are sort of horizontal sync). Hoiw much of this is done in hardware, how much in microocde, etc, is down to the system. It's a great pity you don't have schematics of the Lilith interface. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 22 12:53:39 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 18:53:39 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Advice for Tek 4051 vector-drawing issue? In-Reply-To: <49A05FF3.6080704@axeside.co.uk> from "Philip Belben" at Feb 21, 9 08:11:31 pm Message-ID: > (Using a 405x with an 8050 is a PAIN. You send all the commands to the > drive to find the file and be ready to load it. You then type OLD at 8 and > what does the machine do? Why, asserts IFC, of course. But there are > ways around this. I wonder if I can find my notes...) If this were my system,. I think I'd modify that 8050 to ignore IFC. I don't have the service manual in front of me, but it's probably jsut a matter of cutting the trace to the apporpriate pin of the IEEE-488 socket. 8050s are a lot more common that 405x's, adter all, so I'd modify that end (not to mention the fact that there are times when I'd want to be able to reset other devices from the 405x. If you could find an 8250LP, the IEEE-488 connection in that goes through an intenral cable which would be easy to reversably modify. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 22 12:50:26 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 18:50:26 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Powering up a 20-year old MicroVAX II In-Reply-To: <000f01c99458$e9b47340$bd1d59c0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> from "Robert Jarratt" at Feb 21, 9 07:16:33 pm Message-ID: > After removing all the boards and leaving just the disk and tape drive for > load I impetuously decided to try powering it up. I knew the PSU (model Personally, I'd not have used a disk drive (presumably a winchester-type hard disk) as a dummy load. If might well contain interesting software. But anywy, I would be very suprised if anything on the output side of the PSU has been damaged, > H7864) was set for 110V and made the switch to 240V (I am in the UK). When I > connected the power cord, after a few moments there was a loud pop, followed > by another before I could pull out the power cord, smoke rose from the PSU. > This sounded just like when I had once accidentally made a 110/240 mix-up. > > The question is, could it be that I had not made the switch to 240 > correctly, or could this just be down to the age of the PSU? I don't know the MicroVAX PSU that well (another list member wants me to dig mine out, take it apart and work out how to repair said PSU...) but my experience of DEC hardware is that if there's an obvious external voltage selector switch, that's all that needs to be changed. If there isn't (at least on older machines) there may be one or more sets of terminals inside to rewire. But I've never seen both. Of course on large systems there may be voltage selectors for each sub-unit (CPU, expansion box, drives, etc), but the Microvax II is in one cainet with one PSU. My guess is that it was just bad luck. Something in the PSU decided to fail. The next thign to do is to open up that PSU and see what has failed. Often it'll e obvious now. Look for burnt reisstors, exploded capacitors, blown PCB tracks, etc. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Feb 22 13:21:00 2009 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 19:21:00 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Powering up a 20-year old MicroVAX II In-Reply-To: <49A1395F.9060904@gjcp.net> from "Gordon JC Pearce" at Feb 22, 9 11:39:11 am Message-ID: > > Robert Jarratt wrote: > > > The question is, could it be that I had not made the switch to 240 > > correctly, or could this just be down to the age of the PSU? > > > > Mains filter cap. Reminds me of the time I was working on my HP9817. This machine has a special HP-badged (ut made by Samsung) monitor, with IIRC a 22kHz horizontal freqeucny. Anyway, I left the monitor turned on, and was powering the CPU box up and down while tracing faults on I/O cards. One time, when I had the monitor on but the rest of themachine off, the moniotor emitted a 'pop' followed by magic smoke. Of course I turned it off. I then pulled the cover off the monitor [1], worried that the (totally unotainalbe) flyback transoformer had 'run down the curtain and joined the choir invisile). I was very releived to see that one of the mains filter capacitors had split open with mtalised paper coming out. I desoldered it, and knowing a monitor will work without the mains filter capacitor, tried it again. Fortunately, it worked fine. And a couple of weeks later I fitted a new set of capacitors in that area. [1] Not that easy. You remove the clip-on bezel (which might be a touchscreen...) around the tiltable CRT. Undo the 2 screws above the CRT, then refit the bezel, put the monitor face down, and take out the 4 screws on the bottom. Lift off the cainet shell, then remvoe 4 more screws that hold an access cover under the main PCN. The procedure to totally remove that PCB has 25 steps... -tony From brad at heeltoe.com Sun Feb 22 14:14:55 2009 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 15:14:55 -0500 Subject: PDP 11/35 EIS option In-Reply-To: <206150.22063.qm@web56202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <206150.22063.qm@web56202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2914.1235333695@mini> silvercreekvalley wrote: > >Does anyone have a KE11-E (or KE11-F for that matter) >available. This is a UNIBUS board for the PDP >11/35 or 11/40 which provides the extended instruction >set. it's probably not helpful, but I could swear we added support to simh for the KE11 in order to get unix 1st edition to run. -brad From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Feb 22 14:32:07 2009 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 20:32:07 +0000 Subject: Advice for Tek 4051 vector-drawing issue? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49A1B647.8040403@philpem.me.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > If this were my system,. I think I'd modify that 8050 to ignore IFC. Personally, I'd sooner get a couple of IDC IEEE-488 connectors and some cable, crimp the connectors on the cable (wired 1-1, 2-2, etc.) then separate the IFC wire from the rest of the bundle (I'd pick a bit in the middle, say 2in long). Cut that wire dead in half, continuity-check the cable, then cut the IFC wire down to a more respectable length once all the checks pass (or solder it back together if it turns out you cut the wrong wire). -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun Feb 22 14:33:36 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 20:33:36 +0000 Subject: Powering up a 20-year old MicroVAX II In-Reply-To: <49A17526.50607@cimmeri.com> References: <200902220955.n1M9tDpo083197@dewey.classiccmp.org> <49A17526.50607@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <49A1B6A0.9000000@gjcp.net> js at cimmeri.com wrote: > *Rob, possibly you made the 110/240 switch wrong, but also possible is > that the PSU just wasn't ready to be turned on like that. Electrolytic > Capacitors (of which there are many in that PSU) tend towards > non-functionality the longer they sit unused. Without those caps > working right, the PSU will do pops, smokes, and other alarming things. > Then good luck fixing it. I have to say, for all the talk of failing caps in power supplies I've only ever seen one electrolytic cap fail *ever*, and that was last week in a one-year-old graphics card that has hardly ever been powered off... Gordon From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Feb 22 14:35:30 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 15:35:30 -0500 Subject: 8088 vs. 80c88 In-Reply-To: <49A11DFD.6047.3DCDF5C0@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200902211801.n1LI1E9l070452@dewey.classiccmp.org> <49A07BA3.2040103@hildenbrandt.com> <49A11DFD.6047.3DCDF5C0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200902221535.30225.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 22 February 2009 12:42:21 pm Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 21 Feb 2009 at 15:09, Les Hildenbrandt wrote: > > > The problem with the V20's 8080 emulation was that it was buggy (I > > > have a few MicroNotes on the subject and can even claim to have > > > discovered one of the bugs). > > > > I wonder if it was only cetain chips. I ran cp/m 80 on a v20 for years. > > Try running a program in CP/M with JRT Pascal 1.0 on a V20. CPU bugs > can be very subtle. Isn't JRT Pascal the one that had really horrible reviews in the magazines back when? Pournelle, maybe, though I couldn't say for sure as it's been a while. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 22 14:15:09 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 12:15:09 -0800 Subject: Wanted: DEC Computer Lab manuals In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <49A141CD.22153.3E59CF82@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Feb 2009 at 11:19, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > Of course, it is the silvery color of tin-lead solder, rather than the > brass color of the originals, but it is fairly affordable and reasonably > easy to make. This is one application for which I'd recommend lead-free silver- bearing solder over leaded solder. Stays shiny longer and is a bit harder. --Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Sun Feb 22 16:10:18 2009 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 15:10:18 -0700 Subject: Advice for Tek 4051 vector-drawing issue? In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 22 Feb 2009 11:06:15 -0800. <49A1A227.10605@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: In article <49A1A227.10605 at mail.msu.edu>, Josh Dersch writes: > Or over the optional RS-232 expansion (at a whopping 2400bps). I've > been experimenting with this idea for archiving 405x tapes (and Bob > Rosenbloom has offered to lend me a couple of tapes to play with) but > the major catch is that the 4051 appears to _only_ be programmable in > BASIC -- [...] I thought an earlier conversation here mentioned that there was a way of sneaking machine code into a BASIC program? IIRC, the story went that Tek employees used this to code up some real-time games running on the 4051. I also found this old message about transferring stuff to an 8050: ============== Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 18:52:19 +0100 (CET) From: Christian Corti Subject: Re: Tektronix 4051 Re: <47347D83.9060001 at bitsavers.org> Id: Refs: <47347D83.9060001 at bitsavers.org> --------- On Fri, 9 Nov 2007, Al Kossow wrote: >> We've got a Tektronix 4051 with the optional Data Comms Interface and tons >> of tape cartridges. As the belts in the Scotch/3M DC300 tapes are worn out >> or torn I need to copy the contents 1:1 to other media. But how? > I have a box of tapes from Jim Willing that I need to deal with as well. > There was a GPIB version of the drive used in the 405x that I have. The > service manual goes into more detail than the service manual for the > main unit. I also have a couple of the bare drives and had intended to > hook them up to the same sort of interface that I've been using to deal > with other cassette media. I think that I've already found the solution. I just write a small program to copy all the files onto a CMB 8050 drive! How? Well.. the previous owner (a former high school director) had developed some very fancy extension ROMs for the 4051 with self-written BASIC extensions in machine language etc (around 1983). There are instructions to read or write one physical tape block no matter what type the file is into a string of 256 bytes. The functions are called with CALL "TREAD" and CALL "TWRITE". And there are functions to deal with the Commodore GPIB disk drives (like DIR, SAVE etc.). He even designed a RAM module and corresponding functions to load/store/call machine programs. I will try to write a backup program maybe next week. There are lots of interesting tapes (e.g. games), and I think the ROMs from the cartridges should be dumped, too. Christian ============== -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sun Feb 22 16:34:11 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 14:34:11 -0800 Subject: Dumping MCM6832 PROMs Message-ID: <49A1D2E3.1020501@mail.msu.edu> Anyone out there have the capability to dump Motorola 6832 PROMs? I'd like to dump the rom sets from my Tek 4051 (and expansion packs) for some reverse-engineering but I don't currently have any means to do it. (Can't use the Tek to do it since the system software is BASIC only and has no low-level memory access functionality.) Ultimately I'd like to be able to build a custom expansion ROM pack with my own code on it, and eventually write a 4051 emulation. (And of course if anyone out there's already dumped this stuff, I'd love to get a copy...) Thanks, Josh From vrs at msn.com Sun Feb 22 16:47:16 2009 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 14:47:16 -0800 Subject: Wanted: DEC Computer Lab manuals References: , <49A141CD.22153.3E59CF82@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: From: "Chuck Guzis" Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 12:15 PM > On 22 Feb 2009 at 11:19, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: >> Of course, it is the silvery color of tin-lead solder, rather than the >> brass color of the originals, but it is fairly affordable and reasonably >> easy to make. > > This is one application for which I'd recommend lead-free silver- > bearing solder over leaded solder. Stays shiny longer and is a bit > harder. Your soldering skills likely exceed mine. All I've ever gotten with the lead-free solders is grainy balls of yuckiness, so I didn't try them for this. I'd also expect the higher heat to be harder on the hook-up wire insulation. Vince From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 22 16:57:46 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 14:57:46 -0800 Subject: 8088 vs. 80c88 In-Reply-To: <200902221535.30225.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200902211801.n1LI1E9l070452@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <49A11DFD.6047.3DCDF5C0@cclist.sydex.com>, <200902221535.30225.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <49A167EA.31666.3EEE98ED@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Feb 2009 at 15:35, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Isn't JRT Pascal the one that had really horrible reviews in the magazines > back when? Pournelle, maybe, though I couldn't say for sure as it's been a > while. It *was* pretty buggy and very S-L-O-W, particularly when run from 8" SSSD floppy on a 2MHz 8080. But it allowed for very large programs by using some sort of program segmentation (swapped to/from disk) and had a curious calling sequence, which turned up the V20 snake. But it *was* cheap--something like $24.95. I still have my original floppy from them. I have no idea what became of JRT--ISTR, the company name was the initials of the author's name. It's a good illustration of how sneaky some CPU bugs can be. I suspect that CP/M will run just fine on an original NEC 8080, for example. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Feb 22 17:03:16 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 18:03:16 -0500 Subject: Wanted: DEC Computer Lab manuals In-Reply-To: References: <49A141CD.22153.3E59CF82@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200902221803.17056.rtellason@verizon.net> > I'd also expect the higher heat to be harder on the hook-up wire insulation. Wiring insulation that can't withstand soldering temperatures is a real irritation at times. Teflon-insulated wire might prove useful in that context, for you. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Feb 22 17:06:10 2009 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 18:06:10 -0500 Subject: 8088 vs. 80c88 In-Reply-To: <49A167EA.31666.3EEE98ED@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200902211801.n1LI1E9l070452@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200902221535.30225.rtellason@verizon.net> <49A167EA.31666.3EEE98ED@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200902221806.10854.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 22 February 2009 05:57:46 pm Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 22 Feb 2009 at 15:35, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > Isn't JRT Pascal the one that had really horrible reviews in the > > magazines back when? Pournelle, maybe, though I couldn't say for sure > > as it's been a while. > > It *was* pretty buggy and very S-L-O-W, particularly when run from 8" > SSSD floppy on a 2MHz 8080. But it allowed for very large programs > by using some sort of program segmentation (swapped to/from disk) and > had a curious calling sequence, which turned up the V20 snake. > > But it *was* cheap--something like $24.95. I still have my original > floppy from them. I do recall seeing it in an ad not too long ago and thinking so too. Cheap is good. Mostly. :-) > I have no idea what became of JRT--ISTR, the company name was the > initials of the author's name. Borland came along? Not that I was ever a fan of Pascal, though. I remember going to some meeting of a bunch of computer nuts way back in 1978 sometime, in Philly, and a guy there was all fired up about it, I guess because there wasn't much in the way of higher-level languages available around that time. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Feb 22 17:13:04 2009 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 15:13:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Antikythera fans In-Reply-To: <200902221524.n1MFOb0V078465@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200902221524.n1MFOb0V078465@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20090222151156.E20719@shell.lmi.net> > >I consider stonehenge the classic computer. On Sun, 22 Feb 2009, Bob Bradlee wrote: > I agree. > Stonehenge uses base 56 interger math to calculate eclipses. > See: http://www.eclipse-chasers.com/tseStonehenge.html But the Antikythera calculates the olympics! Will the replica require reprogramming for that? From kth at srv.net Sun Feb 22 17:19:38 2009 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 16:19:38 -0700 Subject: 8088 vs. 80c88 In-Reply-To: <200902221535.30225.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200902211801.n1LI1E9l070452@dewey.classiccmp.org> <49A07BA3.2040103@hildenbrandt.com> <49A11DFD.6047.3DCDF5C0@cclist.sydex.com> <200902221535.30225.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <49A1DD8A.5040900@srv.net> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Sunday 22 February 2009 12:42:21 pm Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> Try running a program in CP/M with JRT Pascal 1.0 on a V20. CPU bugs >> can be very subtle. >> > > Isn't JRT Pascal the one that had really horrible reviews in the magazines > back when? Pournelle, maybe, though I couldn't say for sure as it's been a > while. > > JRT Pascal went through several versions, and was last seen being sold as Nevada Pascal. There is a Wikipedia article on it, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JRT, and several places you can download it, just google for sources. It wasn't very good, and if you ordered it you had to wait a very long time before you received it. Borland's Pascal (even the early versions) were much better. From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Sun Feb 22 17:34:36 2009 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 18:34:36 -0500 Subject: Antikythera fans In-Reply-To: <20090222151156.E20719@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200902222334.n1MNYbjx002127@keith.ezwind.net> On Sun, 22 Feb 2009 15:13:04 -0800 (PST), Fred Cisin wrote: >> >I consider stonehenge the classic computer. >On Sun, 22 Feb 2009, Bob Bradlee wrote: >> I agree. >> Stonehenge uses base 56 interger math to calculate eclipses. >> See: http://www.eclipse-chasers.com/tseStonehenge.html >But the Antikythera calculates the olympics! >Will the replica require reprogramming for that? I thought it calcuated the return of the mother ship, and either slipped a cog, or it's time has come and gone, leaving us with several more unanswered questions. The least being how to reset/restart it. Climbing back under my rock .... Bob From rickb at bensene.com Sun Feb 22 18:10:55 2009 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 16:10:55 -0800 Subject: Executing Machine Code on the Tektronix 4051 In-Reply-To: References: Your message of Sun, 22 Feb 2009 11:06:15 -0800.<49A1A227.10605@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: I recall that there was a way to make the 4051 execute machine code. I don't remember the exact method, but I remember that the bytes of 6800 machine code were encoded into a character string using the CHR$() function. For example, hex 43 would turn into CHR$(67), or a "C". The bytes were put into a string with the limit of program size being the max. size of a character string. The next part is where my memory fails me -- there was a way to cause the BASIC interpreter to branch to the first character in the string, executing the code there. It involved doing the transfer in such a way that it was if the code was branched to with a "jump to subroutine" call, and when the code was complete, a "return from subroutine" instruction would be in the code, and that would cause a branch back to the BASIC interpreter. As I'm writing this, a statement called EXEC$ or something along those lines pops into my head. I don't know if this is any help at all, but I really clearly remember seeing 4051 programs (I worked at Tektronix from 1977 to 1990, and did a lot of tinkering with 4051/2/4) that filled character strings with hand-assembled machine code, and had a means to execute it. Hopefully someone can find some docs that might substantiate these memories and solve the mystery. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sun Feb 22 19:28:52 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 17:28:52 -0800 Subject: Executing Machine Code on the Tektronix 4051 In-Reply-To: References: Your message of Sun, 22 Feb 2009 11:06:15 -0800.<49A1A227.10605@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <49A1FBD4.5020808@mail.msu.edu> Looks like your memory is not too bad... the documented method for calling ROM code (in expansion packs) is via the "CALL" command with a string that names the function to be called. (i.e. I have the EDITOR rom, and that's invoked by doing 'CALL "EDITOR"'). Well, I just tried this: A$="ABCDEF" CALL "EXEC",A$ And the machine immediately reset and gave me a system error :). So it seems evident that this was executing the string as machine code (and crashing horribly). Further experimentation reveals that the string can only contain hexadecimal digits (strings containing other characters returns an I/O error), so I'm wagering that the "EXEC" call does a simple translation from the hex string to bytecodes, then executes it. Now to work out various sundry details like calling conventions, where the code is in memory when it's executed (so I can do jumps) and then onto more fun things like doing something useful! Thanks! Josh Rick Bensene wrote: > I recall that there was a way to make the 4051 execute machine code. I > don't remember the exact method, but I remember that the bytes of 6800 > machine code were encoded into a character string using the CHR$() > function. For example, hex 43 would turn into CHR$(67), or a "C". The > bytes were put into a string with the limit of program size being the > max. size of a character string. The next part is where my memory fails > me -- there was a way to cause the BASIC interpreter to branch to the > first character in the string, executing the code there. It involved > doing the transfer in such a way that it was if the code was branched to > with a "jump to subroutine" call, and when the code was complete, a > "return from subroutine" instruction would be in the code, and that > would cause a branch back to the BASIC interpreter. As I'm writing this, > a statement called EXEC$ or something along those lines pops into my > head. > > I don't know if this is any help at all, but I really clearly remember > seeing 4051 programs (I worked at Tektronix from 1977 to 1990, and did a > lot of tinkering with 4051/2/4) that filled character strings with > hand-assembled machine code, and had a means to execute it. Hopefully > someone can find some docs that might substantiate these memories and > solve the mystery. > > Rick Bensene > The Old Calculator Museum > http://oldcalculatormuseum.com > > > > > > From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Feb 22 19:44:41 2009 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 19:44:41 -0600 Subject: Central Point Option Boards available Message-ID: <49A1FF89.5010302@oldskool.org> I've seen a smattering of interest around Option Boards in this list every few months, so I thought I'd mention that my last two option boards are now up for auction, an older CopyIIPC Option Board and a Deluxe Option Board: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110355365098 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110355371748 I set the starting prices at about half what I've seen them go for in the past (and that was for loose boards). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Feb 22 19:54:49 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 18:54:49 -0700 Subject: 8088 vs. 80c88 In-Reply-To: <49A11DFD.6047.3DCDF5C0@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200902211801.n1LI1E9l070452@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <49A07BA3.2040103@hildenbrandt.com> <49A11DFD.6047.3DCDF5C0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <49A201E9.8090104@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 21 Feb 2009 at 15:09, Les Hildenbrandt wrote: > >>> The problem with the V20's 8080 emulation was that it was buggy (I >>> have a few MicroNotes on the subject and can even claim to have >>> discovered one of the bugs). >> I wonder if it was only cetain chips. I ran cp/m 80 on a v20 for years. > > Try running a program in CP/M with JRT Pascal 1.0 on a V20. CPU bugs > can be very subtle. Well what are the bugs? > Cheers, > Chuck > > From mwichary at gmail.com Sun Feb 22 19:56:37 2009 From: mwichary at gmail.com (Marcin Wichary) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 17:56:37 -0800 Subject: Can someone help me identify this IBM machine? Message-ID: <1debc0350902221756x7ede5148m17553e7157c5d1e9@mail.gmail.com> I spent 20 minutes on Google without much luck: http://www.flickr.com/photos/mwichary/3300685689/ It seems like a calculator. Thanks in advance! -- Marcin Wichary Sr. user experience designer, Google Graphical User Interface gallery >> www.guidebookgallery.org From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Feb 22 20:03:52 2009 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 18:03:52 -0800 Subject: Dumping MCM6832 PROMs In-Reply-To: <49A1D2E3.1020501@mail.msu.edu> References: <49A1D2E3.1020501@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90902221803s60bc7580kd28109e7169f323@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Feb 22, 2009 at 2:34 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Anyone out there have the capability to dump Motorola 6832 PROMs? I'd like > to dump the rom sets from my Tek 4051 (and expansion packs) for some > reverse-engineering but I don't currently have any means to do it. (Can't > use the Tek to do it since the system software is BASIC only and has no > low-level memory access functionality.) > Is the 6800 socketed and in an accessible location when the system is running? One possibility might be to use a Fluke 9010 with a 6800 probe to read the ROMs and dump them out the Fluke 9010 serial port. -Glen From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Feb 22 20:04:44 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 19:04:44 -0700 Subject: Antikythera fans In-Reply-To: <200902222334.n1MNYbjx002127@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200902222334.n1MNYbjx002127@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <49A2043C.6070101@jetnet.ab.ca> Bob Bradlee wrote: > > I thought it calcuated the return of the mother ship, and either slipped a cog, > or it's time has come and gone, leaving us with several more unanswered questions. > The least being how to reset/restart it. What I find strange is that the corossion was still on the gears. I thought that could be electricaly reversed somewhat. I found modern science is all hype about claming to find something out, but never telling just what they found. > Climbing back under my rock .... > > Bob > Stick to Stonehenge Bob ... more rocks ... some even clamed to float, From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Feb 22 20:09:01 2009 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 19:09:01 -0700 Subject: Antikythera fans In-Reply-To: <20090222151156.E20719@shell.lmi.net> References: <200902221524.n1MFOb0V078465@keith.ezwind.net> <20090222151156.E20719@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <49A2053D.7040704@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: > But the Antikythera calculates the olympics! > Will the replica require reprogramming for that? But does imply some *cosmic* event in the skies about every 4 years to hold the olympics? PS. there is a 25% the modern olympics started on the right year. :) From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 22 20:42:43 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 18:42:43 -0800 Subject: 8088 vs. 80c88 In-Reply-To: <49A201E9.8090104@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200902211801.n1LI1E9l070452@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <49A11DFD.6047.3DCDF5C0@cclist.sydex.com>, <49A201E9.8090104@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <49A19CA3.12846.3FBCB42C@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Feb 2009 at 18:54, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > Well what are the bugs? Here's the one with JRT Pascal (IIRC): LXI SP,LABELX CALL LABELX LABELX: ... RET crashes and burns on a V20. Runs fine on an 8080/Z80. I may not have it exactly--this was over 20 years ago and it's going to take some digging to find my paperwork on the V20. Until then, you'll have to rely on my ever-more-tenuous memory it or try it for yourself. V20 emulation mode was enough of a problem that we eventually disabled it in 22NICE. x86 machines were getting powerful enough that software emulation was faster anyway. We could also do things in software emulation that we couldn't do in V20 mode, such as trap I/O accesses and redirect them to user-written servicers. My contact at NEC Natick was Rich Naro and he indicated that 8080 emulation mode was very low on the "things to be fixed" list in the V- series chips. There were also some very strange behavior when an 8087 was included into the mix. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Feb 22 20:52:24 2009 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 20:52:24 -0600 Subject: 8088 vs. 80c88 In-Reply-To: <49A19CA3.12846.3FBCB42C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200902211801.n1LI1E9l070452@dewey.classiccmp.org> <49A11DFD.6047.3DCDF5C0@cclist.sydex.com> <49A201E9.8090104@jetnet.ab.ca> <49A19CA3.12846.3FBCB42C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Feb 22, 2009 at 8:42 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > V20 emulation mode was enough of a problem that we eventually > disabled it in 22NICE. x86 machines were getting powerful enough > that software emulation was faster anyway. We could also do things > in software emulation that we couldn't do in V20 mode, such as trap > I/O accesses and redirect them to user-written servicers. I understand wanting to minimize user frustration, but back in the day (1991?), I did stick a V20 in my XT clone specifically to run 22NICE to run the CP/M versions of the Scott Adams games (since those were the easiest versions to find at the time). For what I was doing, it worked great. -ethan From rborsuk at colourfull.com Sun Feb 22 22:04:12 2009 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 23:04:12 -0500 Subject: VCF's this year Message-ID: <9B4959A6-5EE1-48FD-86B5-B33CB487246A@colourfull.com> Hi All, Has there been any dates for VCF's this year? Rob Rob Borsuk email: rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations Web: http://www.colourfull.com From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sun Feb 22 22:19:08 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 20:19:08 -0800 Subject: Executing Machine Code on the Tektronix 4051 In-Reply-To: <49A1FBD4.5020808@mail.msu.edu> References: Your message of Sun, 22 Feb 2009 11:06:15 -0800.<49A1A227.10605@mail.msu.edu> <49A1FBD4.5020808@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <49A223BC.60605@mail.msu.edu> Small correction: The string "EXEC" takes does not seem to need to only hexadecimal digits, the only requirement seems to be that it have a non-zero, even length. So I'm unsure of the encoding -- strings on the Tek are limited to 7-bit ASCII, so using CHR() to build a string directly from 6800 machine codes isn't going to work. Given that the call requires an even-length string, clearly two characters are combined somehow to form one machine code, but how isn't immediately obvious. I've played around with a few simple combinations with no luck so far. Josh Josh Dersch wrote: > Looks like your memory is not too bad... the documented method for > calling ROM code (in expansion packs) is via the "CALL" command with a > string that names the function to be called. (i.e. I have the EDITOR > rom, and that's invoked by doing 'CALL "EDITOR"'). > > Well, I just tried this: > > A$="ABCDEF" > CALL "EXEC",A$ > > And the machine immediately reset and gave me a system error :). So > it seems evident that this was executing the string as machine code > (and crashing horribly). > > Further experimentation reveals that the string can only contain > hexadecimal digits (strings containing other characters returns an I/O > error), so I'm wagering that the "EXEC" call does a simple translation > from the hex string to bytecodes, then executes it. > > Now to work out various sundry details like calling conventions, where > the code is in memory when it's executed (so I can do jumps) and then > onto more fun things like doing something useful! > > Thanks! > Josh > > Rick Bensene wrote: >> I recall that there was a way to make the 4051 execute machine code. I >> don't remember the exact method, but I remember that the bytes of 6800 >> machine code were encoded into a character string using the CHR$() >> function. For example, hex 43 would turn into CHR$(67), or a "C". The >> bytes were put into a string with the limit of program size being the >> max. size of a character string. The next part is where my memory fails >> me -- there was a way to cause the BASIC interpreter to branch to the >> first character in the string, executing the code there. It involved >> doing the transfer in such a way that it was if the code was branched to >> with a "jump to subroutine" call, and when the code was complete, a >> "return from subroutine" instruction would be in the code, and that >> would cause a branch back to the BASIC interpreter. As I'm writing this, >> a statement called EXEC$ or something along those lines pops into my >> head. >> I don't know if this is any help at all, but I really clearly remember >> seeing 4051 programs (I worked at Tektronix from 1977 to 1990, and did a >> lot of tinkering with 4051/2/4) that filled character strings with >> hand-assembled machine code, and had a means to execute it. Hopefully >> someone can find some docs that might substantiate these memories and >> solve the mystery. >> >> Rick Bensene >> The Old Calculator Museum >> http://oldcalculatormuseum.com >> >> >> >> >> >> > > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Feb 22 21:46:20 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 19:46:20 -0800 Subject: 8088 vs. 80c88 In-Reply-To: References: <200902211801.n1LI1E9l070452@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <49A19CA3.12846.3FBCB42C@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <49A1AB8C.22148.3FF6E9B8@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Feb 2009 at 20:52, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I understand wanting to minimize user frustration, but back in the day > (1991?), I did stick a V20 in my XT clone specifically to run 22NICE > to run the CP/M versions of the Scott Adams games (since those were > the easiest versions to find at the time). For what I was doing, it > worked great. The "disabling" was only in removing the option specification from the GENCOM utility--the code was still in 22NICE itself. If you used an older version of GENCOM, or just updated the 22NICE.COM resident, V20 emulation would work. The change was made cica 1993. The I/O remapping worked for some of our customers wanting to substitute a PC in their existing equipment, particularly those involving CNC. I recall a Strippit sheet metal punch adapted in this manner. That was back when the US still manufactured things...sigh. Cheers, Chuck From evan at snarc.net Sun Feb 22 22:24:45 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 23:24:45 -0500 Subject: VCF's this year In-Reply-To: <9B4959A6-5EE1-48FD-86B5-B33CB487246A@colourfull.com> Message-ID: <000d01c9956e$a9327fd0$0301a8c0@evan> VCF East 6.0 is Sept. 12-13. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Robert Borsuk Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 11:04 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: VCF's this year Hi All, Has there been any dates for VCF's this year? Rob Rob Borsuk email: rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations Web: http://www.colourfull.com From evan at snarc.net Sun Feb 22 23:25:11 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 00:25:11 -0500 Subject: AAARRGGGHHHH ... people still stealing my work Message-ID: <001301c99577$1ab1da40$0301a8c0@evan> This was an issue a couple of years ago. Now it's back: the 10,000-word article that I published on my personal web site in 2005 (and since took down) is reprint IN FULL at http://www.iranianpda.com/iPDADB/FAQs/PDAHistory/ThehistoryofPDAs.htm, obviously without my permission. Whatever moron did this even included my disclaimer saying not to steal my work!!! Here are two other examples: Big yellow chart 1/3 down the page: http://um_pxgt_6103.seedwiki.com/wiki/um_pxgt_6103/pda_-_discuss?wikiPageId= 237424 Timeline 1/4 down the page: http://pdaforum.ladoshki.com/viewtopic.php?t=20027 &postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=5&sid=772e87081af243f1c20a6cc14bb989ce Can anyone help? From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Feb 22 23:35:28 2009 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 23:35:28 -0600 Subject: VCF's this year In-Reply-To: <000d01c9956e$a9327fd0$0301a8c0@evan> References: <000d01c9956e$a9327fd0$0301a8c0@evan> Message-ID: <49A235A0.40903@oldskool.org> VCF Midwest is still being worked out. Evan Koblentz wrote: > VCF East 6.0 is Sept. 12-13. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Robert Borsuk > Sent: Sunday, February 22, 2009 11:04 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: VCF's this year > > > Hi All, > Has there been any dates for VCF's this year? > > Rob > > > > > Rob Borsuk > email: rborsuk at colourfull.com > Colourfull Creations > Web: http://www.colourfull.com > > -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Feb 22 23:46:39 2009 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 23:46:39 -0600 Subject: AAARRGGGHHHH ... people still stealing my work In-Reply-To: <001301c99577$1ab1da40$0301a8c0@evan> References: <001301c99577$1ab1da40$0301a8c0@evan> Message-ID: <49A2383F.5000907@oldskool.org> Evan Koblentz wrote: > This was an issue a couple of years ago. Now it's back: the 10,000-word > article that I published on my personal web site in 2005 (and since took > down) is reprint IN FULL at > http://www.iranianpda.com/iPDADB/FAQs/PDAHistory/ThehistoryofPDAs.htm, > obviously without my permission. Whatever moron did this even included my > disclaimer saying not to steal my work!!! Looking at the source, it's an exact copy -- even the "return to homepage" goes to your site, not theirs. I don't read Iranian, but that doesn't seem like stealing/plagiarism (ie. trying to pass the content off as their own), but rather mirroring the content. You also wrote on the page "please don't reprint anything without crediting me" -- they are indeed crediting you as your byline is intact. So is this stealing? I'm curious: Do you consider a 100% exact mirror, with all authorship notices intact, stealing? You use the word "republishing" but apply it to online non-commercial content, which I don't understand. Can you clarify that? What is "republishing" as applied to online content? I'm not trying to start a war; I'm honestly interested in the answers because they have relevance to archiving our hobby (more specifically, putting said archives online). -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From evan at snarc.net Sun Feb 22 23:58:06 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 00:58:06 -0500 Subject: AAARRGGGHHHH ... people still stealing my work In-Reply-To: <49A2383F.5000907@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <001801c9957b$b39dd070$0301a8c0@evan> >>> I'm curious: Do you consider a 100% exact mirror, with all authorship notices intact, stealing? Absolutely, if the mirror owner does not have (and never even asked for) permission. From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Feb 23 00:14:32 2009 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 00:14:32 -0600 Subject: AAARRGGGHHHH ... people still stealing my work In-Reply-To: <001301c99577$1ab1da40$0301a8c0@evan> References: <001301c99577$1ab1da40$0301a8c0@evan> Message-ID: <49A23EC8.5030904@mdrconsult.com> Evan Koblentz wrote: > This was an issue a couple of years ago. Now it's back: the 10,000-word > article that I published on my personal web site in 2005 (and since took > down) is reprint IN FULL at > Can anyone help? Yes. Don't sweat it. If you publish, people will take your work and use it, and often claim it as their own. It may not be "the new way", but it is certainly a reality. You may or may not have legal recourse, but in the end, you can't stop it. What I don't get is this: if I'm not publishing for pay, why would I care? *Especially* if the reprint, republish, distribution, whatever cites me? If my goal is to promote knowledge and understanding, then the more places it appears, the better. The only reason I can see that I'd want to restrict distribution would be that I'm promoting my own ego. Doc From evan at snarc.net Mon Feb 23 00:37:23 2009 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 01:37:23 -0500 Subject: AAARRGGGHHHH ... people still stealing my work In-Reply-To: <49A23EC8.5030904@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <001d01c99581$31001aa0$0301a8c0@evan> >>>> What I don't get is this: if I'm not publishing for pay, why would I care? *Especially* if the reprint, republish, distribution, whatever cites me? If my goal is to promote knowledge and understanding, then the more places it appears, the better. The only reason I can see that I'd want to restrict distribution would be that I'm promoting my own ego. Two reasons, neither related to my ego. :) First, as many cctalkers know, I * do * intend to include this work as part of a for-profit book. That is why my agent advised me to remove it from my personal web site in the first place. Second, re: the reality of lax online citation standards, I know this all TOO well -- and I know that people will write, "'Blah blah blah,' the web site Iranianpda.com said." It's nothing to do with ego; quite frankly (and I know this is VERY controversial, I * fully agree * with Bill Gates' infamous "Open Letter to Hobbyists" in which he noted that one's I.P. is just as legitimate "work" that should not be copied without permission or an exchange of money. What some call mirroring, others call stealing. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Feb 22 08:48:59 2009 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 14:48:59 -0000 Subject: Powering up a 20-year old MicroVAX II In-Reply-To: <0KFG00I3V02DN0VG@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0KFG00I3V02DN0VG@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <000901c994fc$b2feeb10$18fcc130$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> > Correct the worng harness has unequal length wires and the correct > one has equal length wires. The harness in question goes from the > Backplane to the PS. > > The problem is with unequal length wires the connectors were sharing > the > load unequaly and the connecotr would overheat and fail sequentially. > It was more of a problem on highly loaded boxes. > > >Field service were (again, iirc) supposed to swap these out if > >they came across them. But if your machine has truly not been used > >for twenty years, it ended up in storage relatively eraly in its > >life and so may not have had a chance for some FS TLC. > > 20 years is maybe on the wire. It may have been already replaced. > The harness in my system does not seem to match any of the descriptions I have seen so far. The wires are not equal in length, but it is not a ribbon cable with IDC connectors either. The connectors are black rather than white. The harness wires do not seem discoloured, but I believe that this particular system may have only had light use in its day. I have a picture of the harness but I am not sure if the rules of this list allow attachments. The system has a CPU card, two memory cards, three "half height" controllers (disk, tape, async i/O), and a full height third party external expansion storage card. I have the expansion storage box too, but to keep load on the PS down I would be happy to remove the extra card until I make or get a new harness. Regards Rob From steerex at ccvn.com Sun Feb 22 10:23:47 2009 From: steerex at ccvn.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 11:23:47 -0500 Subject: Wanted Z80 In Circuit Emulator for Loan/Rent/Buy In-Reply-To: <004f01c99491$9ad1f6b0$d075e410$@net> References: <20090129214801.GN27880@n0jcf.net> <49832AC4.18605.6D3416BA@cclist.sydex.com> <002701c983a3$1db32f40$59198dc0$@net> <4983EE36.1295.702F89E7@cclist.sydex.com> <005c01c99371$94f37320$beda5960$@net> <1235221070.7034.1.camel@homer> <004f01c99491$9ad1f6b0$d075e410$@net> Message-ID: <1235319827.12449.21.camel@homer> On Sat, 2009-02-21 at 21:02 -0500, ROBO5.8 wrote: > Wow. Three Steve's with In Circuit Emulators, what are the odds on that. > > Thank you for your offers of assistance. > > I am trying to debug a random loss of program control. The problem is > repeatable but it takes many cycles for it to occur. > > I believe I need an In-Circuit Emulator with good full speed trace > capabilities for a 4Mhz Z80. Something that would allow me to stop the > emulator at the point of the random error and then go backwards through the > code execution trace buffer to learn what occurred. > > Could you let me know if your emulators offer such capabilities? > > Thanks Robo > Hmmm... Not sure you could do that with my emulator. I think you would need a full-blown development system to catch those kinda errors. Sorry but, mine wouldn't meet that criteria. See Ya, SteveRob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Feb 22 11:58:50 2009 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 17:58:50 -0000 Subject: Powering up a 20-year old MicroVAX II In-Reply-To: <49A17526.50607@cimmeri.com> References: <200902220955.n1M9tDpo083197@dewey.classiccmp.org> <49A17526.50607@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <000a01c99517$3f1113c0$bd333b40$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> > *Rob, possibly you made the 110/240 switch wrong, but also possible is > that the PSU just wasn't ready to be turned on like that. > Electrolytic > Capacitors (of which there are many in that PSU) tend towards > non-functionality the longer they sit unused. Without those caps > working right, the PSU will do pops, smokes, and other alarming things. > Then good luck fixing it. Do you mean that it will be difficult to fix, even if I can find someone who really knows what they are doing? > > What I do with an old PSU like that is test each cap prior to it ever > being powered up.. both for capacitance and ESR. Usually, some or all > of the caps need reforming or even replacement. Only after the caps > are back to health, do I then give the PSU power... at first with the > smallest load I can get away with. I only have a basic multimeter so I don't know if I would have had the necessary equipment to do this, do you have any advice on the minimum equipment needed? Now that there has been some damage is it sensible to replace the blown capacitors and any other ones that don't measure well? > > If it's a switcher PSU (as that one is), I'll bring it up quickly to > about 90V using a variac... then in 5V increments every 1/2 hr after > that to 130V, then back down to 120V. This in the USA. I looked up variacs but there seem to be an awful lot of different ones, again any recommendation as to the minimum I would need? By the way, I am aware that PSUs can be very dangerous to meddle with when you have limited knowledge. How long should I leave the PSU between any tests to allow the capacitors to discharge? The label on the PSU says to leave it 5 minutes, I suspect it should be longer. > > jS > > > * From philip at axeside.co.uk Sun Feb 22 14:44:14 2009 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 20:44:14 +0000 Subject: Advice for Tek 4051 vector-drawing issue? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <49A1B91E.7080903@axeside.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >> (Using a 405x with an 8050 is a PAIN. You send all the commands to the >> drive to find the file and be ready to load it. You then type OLD at 8 and >> what does the machine do? Why, asserts IFC, of course. But there are >> ways around this. I wonder if I can find my notes...) > > If this were my system,. I think I'd modify that 8050 to ignore IFC. I > don't have the service manual in front of me, but it's probably jsut a > matter of cutting the trace to the apporpriate pin of the IEEE-488 > socket. 8050s are a lot more common that 405x's, adter all, so I'd modify > that end (not to mention the fact that there are times when I'd want to > be able to reset other devices from the 405x. > > If you could find an 8250LP, the IEEE-488 connection in that goes through > an intenral cable which would be easy to reversably modify. Tony, you may rest easy. The workaround involves chaining the program rather than loading it from scratch. This doesn't assert IFC. As regards an 8250LP, I think I used the disk drive mounted in my 8296 in situ, using the 8296 to check that it was working... I want a MUPET. Philip. From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Feb 22 21:17:32 2009 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 22:17:32 -0500 Subject: 8088 vs. 80c88 Message-ID: <0KFI00HB813QG462@vms173009.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: 8088 vs. 80c88 > From: "bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca" > Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 18:54:49 -0700 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 21 Feb 2009 at 15:09, Les Hildenbrandt wrote: >> >>>> The problem with the V20's 8080 emulation was that it was buggy (I >>>> have a few MicroNotes on the subject and can even claim to have >>>> discovered one of the bugs). >>> I wonder if it was only cetain chips. I ran cp/m 80 on a v20 for years. I also ran it on V20 inserted in the Leading Edge model D, not only did it help dos level stuff by a few percent it ran every thing 8080 I'd thrown at it. >> Try running a program in CP/M with JRT Pascal 1.0 on a V20. CPU bugs >> can be very subtle. Your kidding tight? ;) JRT pascal was fairly buggy itself and it was till arond V3 that it stopped being noticalbly so. Allison >Well what are the bugs? > >> Cheers, >> Chuck >> >> From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Mon Feb 23 01:27:13 2009 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 07:27:13 -0000 Subject: Powering up a 20-year old MicroVAX II Message-ID: <638EACBC22F127458865BBE72482CA29018815@ediserver.EDICONS.local> Hi Sounds like capacitors. Alhough it's a switcher any high voltage/high value capacitors in the PSU might well need reforming. Quite often you will see caps with a pair if incised lines on top. This makes them go pop instead of bang. You would not want to see a PSU where they have gone bang. Rod Smallwood The DEC Collector -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Robert Jarratt Sent: 21 February 2009 19:17 To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Powering up a 20-year old MicroVAX II > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk- > bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Robert Jarratt > Sent: 20 February 2009 22:45 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Powering up a 20-year old MicroVAX II > > I have just collected a MicroVAX II which has been in storage and has > not been powered on for 20 years. This is my first machine of such an > age, unfortunately I am not particularly knowledgeable at the > electronics level (I studied circuits academically 25+ years ago and > can solder a bit, but that is as far as it goes). I know I will need > to treat it carefully in order to get it working again. I plan to open > it up and make sure I clear out any debris etc, but beyond that I need > advice from those with the experience and knowledge that I lack on how > to go about powering it up carefully. > > > > Thanks > > > > Rob After removing all the boards and leaving just the disk and tape drive for load I impetuously decided to try powering it up. I knew the PSU (model H7864) was set for 110V and made the switch to 240V (I am in the UK). When I connected the power cord, after a few moments there was a loud pop, followed by another before I could pull out the power cord, smoke rose from the PSU. This sounded just like when I had once accidentally made a 110/240 mix-up. The question is, could it be that I had not made the switch to 240 correctly, or could this just be down to the age of the PSU? Regards Rob From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Feb 23 01:37:03 2009 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 02:37:03 -0500 Subject: Powering up a 20-year old MicroVAX II In-Reply-To: <49A1B6A0.9000000@gjcp.net> References: <200902220955.n1M9tDpo083197@dewey.classiccmp.org> <49A17526.50607@cimmeri.com> <49A1B6A0.9000000@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <03D37DCC-CA7A-4578-B34D-1CB3E4DB85EE@neurotica.com> On Feb 22, 2009, at 3:33 PM, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >> *Rob, possibly you made the 110/240 switch wrong, but also >> possible is that the PSU just wasn't ready to be turned on like >> that. Electrolytic Capacitors (of which there are many in that >> PSU) tend towards non-functionality the longer they sit unused. >> Without those caps working right, the PSU will do pops, smokes, >> and other alarming things. Then good luck fixing it. > > I have to say, for all the talk of failing caps in power supplies > I've only ever seen one electrolytic cap fail *ever*, and that was > last week in a one-year-old graphics card that has hardly ever been > powered off... Heh. I've replaced four tantalum capacitors in the past week alone. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Mon Feb 23 01:50:21 2009 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 23:50:21 -0800 Subject: Executing Machine Code on the Tektronix 4051 In-Reply-To: <49A223BC.60605@mail.msu.edu> References: Your message of Sun, 22 Feb 2009 11:06:15 -0800.<49A1A227.10605@mail.msu.edu> <49A1FBD4.5020808@mail.msu.edu> <49A223BC.60605@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <49A2553D.40608@mail.msu.edu> Ok, sorry for continually replying to my own posts, and sorry for spamming the group with stuff, but I found the answer. And the answer comes from Rick, c. 1999 :). http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/1999-February/120292.html Looks like, based on that encoding, it's just the lower-nybbles of each pair of characters forming one machine code byte. Makes sense :). (I swear I tried this without success earlier, but now I'm having better luck...) Now to figure out everything else. Now I wish I had a bitmapped display to make debugging easier :). Josh Josh Dersch wrote: > Small correction: The string "EXEC" takes does not seem to need to > only hexadecimal digits, the only requirement seems to be that it have > a non-zero, even length. > > So I'm unsure of the encoding -- strings on the Tek are limited to > 7-bit ASCII, so using CHR() to build a string directly from 6800 > machine codes isn't going to work. Given that the call requires an > even-length string, clearly two characters are combined somehow to > form one machine code, but how isn't immediately obvious. I've played > around with a few simple combinations with no luck so far. > > Josh > > Josh Dersch wrote: >> Looks like your memory is not too bad... the documented method for >> calling ROM code (in expansion packs) is via the "CALL" command with >> a string that names the function to be called. (i.e. I have the >> EDITOR rom, and that's invoked by doing 'CALL "EDITOR"'). >> >> Well, I just tried this: >> >> A$="ABCDEF" >> CALL "EXEC",A$ >> >> And the machine immediately reset and gave me a system error :). So >> it seems evident that this was executing the string as machine code >> (and crashing horribly). >> >> Further experimentation reveals that the string can only contain >> hexadecimal digits (strings containing other characters returns an >> I/O error), so I'm wagering that the "EXEC" call does a simple >> translation from the hex string to bytecodes, then executes it. >> >> Now to work out various sundry details like calling conventions, >> where the code is in memory when it's executed (so I can do jumps) >> and then onto more fun things like doing something useful! >> >> Thanks! >> Josh >> >> Rick Bensene wrote: >>> I recall that there was a way to make the 4051 execute machine code. I >>> don't remember the exact method, but I remember that the bytes of 6800 >>> machine code were encoded into a character string using the CHR$() >>> function. For example, hex 43 would turn into CHR$(67), or a "C". >>> The >>> bytes were put into a string with the limit of program size being the >>> max. size of a character string. The next part is where my memory >>> fails >>> me -- there was a way to cause the BASIC interpreter to branch to the >>> first character in the string, executing the code there. It involved >>> doing the transfer in such a way that it was if the code was >>> branched to >>> with a "jump to subroutine" call, and when the code was complete, a >>> "return from subroutine" instruction would be in the code, and that >>> would cause a branch back to the BASIC interpreter. As I'm writing >>> this, >>> a statement called EXEC$ or something along those lines pops into my >>> head. I don't know if this is any help at all, but I really clearly >>> remember >>> seeing 4051 programs (I worked at Tektronix from 1977 to 1990, and >>> did a >>> lot of tinkering with 4051/2/4) that filled character strings with >>> hand-assembled machine code, and had a means to execute it. Hopefully >>> someone can find some docs that might substantiate these memories and >>> solve the mystery. >>> >>> Rick Bensene >>> The Old Calculator Museum >>> http://oldcalculatormuseum.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Feb 23 01:58:23 2009 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2009 23:58:23 -0800 Subject: 8088 vs. 80c88 In-Reply-To: <0KFI00HB813QG462@vms173009.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0KFI00HB813QG462@vms173009.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <49A1E69F.13431.40DD19E2@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Feb 2009 at 22:17, Allison wrote: > Your kidding tight? ;) > > JRT pascal was fairly buggy itself and it was till arond V3 that it stopped being > noticalbly so. Buggy or not, the V20 wouldn't run it. Rich Naro verified the bug and published a MicroNote on it. And JRT was comparatively popular for the time. It boils down to the V20 not being able to run a commercially available 8080 product because of a fault in the CPU. Suppose a customer used an application written and deployed with JRT Pascal. What do we tell him? "JRT Pascal--ho, ho, ha, you must be kidding...." Nope, serious business. Who knows what other product could have used the same coding technique? In a way, this was deja vu of a much earlier problem with the NEC version of the 8080, where NEC left the carry bit unaffected after a boolean operation, where Intel reset it. Considering that many 8080 programs cleared the carry bit with something like "ORA A", do you think that CP/M would have run with the old NEC chip? --Chuck From andrew at smokebelch.org Mon Feb 23 02:32:22 2009 From: andrew at smokebelch.org (Andrew Back) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 08:32:22 +0000 Subject: AAARRGGGHHHH ... people still stealing my work In-Reply-To: <001801c9957b$b39dd070$0301a8c0@evan> References: <49A2383F.5000907@oldskool.org> <001801c9957b$b39dd070$0301a8c0@evan> Message-ID: <20090223083222.GA77349@plum.flirble.org> On (00:58 23/02/09), Evan Koblentz wrote: > >>> I'm curious: Do you consider a 100% exact mirror, with all authorship > notices intact, stealing? > > Absolutely, if the mirror owner does not have (and never even asked for) > permission. Yeah, so you appear to have been clear that folks should not copy without your permission. Even without such notices, just because copying is not explicitly disallowed does not mean the work falls into the public domain. That said you'd perhaps have been better including a clear notice like: 'Copyright Evan Koblentz, 2005. All rights reserved' Else something more wordy and crafted in legalese, rather than a plea. What can you do about it? Send a takedown notice to them and/or their hosting provider. Not sure what else. You could always ask your agent/publisher. Andrew (Disclaimer: IANAL) -- Andrew Back a at smokebelch.org From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon Feb 23 04:03:38 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 10:03:38 +0000 Subject: AAARRGGGHHHH ... people still stealing my work In-Reply-To: <49A2383F.5000907@oldskool.org> References: <001301c99577$1ab1da40$0301a8c0@evan> <49A2383F.5000907@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <49A2747A.2040206@gjcp.net> Jim Leonard wrote: > Evan Koblentz wrote: >> This was an issue a couple of years ago. Now it's back: the 10,000-word >> article that I published on my personal web site in 2005 (and since took >> down) is reprint IN FULL at >> http://www.iranianpda.com/iPDADB/FAQs/PDAHistory/ThehistoryofPDAs.htm, >> obviously without my permission. Whatever moron did this even >> included my >> disclaimer saying not to steal my work!!! > > Looking at the source, it's an exact copy -- even the "return to > homepage" goes to your site, not theirs. I don't read Iranian, but that > doesn't seem like stealing/plagiarism (ie. trying to pass the content > off as their own), but rather mirroring the content. You also wrote on > the page "please don't reprint anything without crediting me" -- they > are indeed crediting you as your byline is intact. So is this stealing? I *do* know a couple of people who speak Persian, so I'll ask them if there's any reference to the page's provenance on the site. Chances are there's a line somewhere saying "We emailed the author about it but it bounced/he didn't reply/the email provider is long gone so presumably it's okay", just as you do on a ton of English-language sites. I do find myself wondering had been on http://israelipda.com with all the supporting text in Hebrew, if there would have been such a screaming about it ;-) Gordon From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon Feb 23 04:24:32 2009 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 10:24:32 +0000 Subject: Powering up a 20-year old MicroVAX II In-Reply-To: <638EACBC22F127458865BBE72482CA29018815@ediserver.EDICONS.local> References: <638EACBC22F127458865BBE72482CA29018815@ediserver.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <49A27960.5080202@gjcp.net> Rod Smallwood wrote: > Hi > Sounds like capacitors. > Alhough it's a switcher any high voltage/high value capacitors in the > PSU might well need reforming. > Quite often you will see caps with a pair if incised lines on top. This > makes them go pop instead of bang. > You would not want to see a PSU where they have gone bang. This is the only popped electrolytic I have ever seen, in damn near 30 years of fiddling with electronic stuff: http://www.gjcp.net/~gordonjcp/blowncap.jpg Gordon From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Feb 23 05:26:25 2009 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 12:26:25 +0100 (CET) Subject: Advice for Tek 4051 vector-drawing issue? In-Reply-To: <49A1A227.10605@mail.msu.edu> References: <49A1A227.10605@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Feb 2009, Josh Dersch wrote: > Richard wrote: >> I guess the best way to get data transferred from these systems is to >> use the GPIB interface and transfer the programs out of the system and >> into the internet. I wonder if the easiest would be to use a >> Commodore GPIB compatable floppy drive or something. >> > Or over the optional RS-232 expansion (at a whopping 2400bps). I've been > experimenting with this idea for archiving 405x tapes (and Bob Rosenbloom has > offered to lend me a couple of tapes to play with) but the major catch is > that the 4051 appears to _only_ be programmable in BASIC -- there's no > PEEK/POKE or ways to call user 6800 machine code. This wouldn't be a problem > except that it's possible to protect tape files with the "SECRET" command -- > this makes a given file execute-only, so it appears to be impossible to read > the contents of the file using BASIC commands. I'm guessing that most (if > not all) commercial software tapes are protected in such a manner, but I > suppose I'll find out. We have several third-party ROM and RAM modules for our 4051. A RAM module (called BACKRAM) behaves like a ROM module after you have loaded the contents from tape. There is one module with support for CBM drives, special I/O routines, assembler and firmware routines. The documentation (alas German only) for these ROMs can be found at ftp.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pub/cm/tek4051/ BTW it *is* possible to write 6800 programs, it's just not officially documented. The magic command is CALL "exec" [,{Var1} [,{Var2} {,...]]], {Loaderstring} (see exec.txt and ram_loader.prg) > I'm looking into whether if it's possible to adapt one of the "backpack" > expansions to take EPROMs instead of MCM6832 ROMs. Anyone done this before? > Given a bit of hacking it'd then be possible to write some 6800 code to do a > binary dump of the tapes, bypassing the protection mechanisms. I've already written a little BASIC program that uses the special ROM functions in order to create real tape dumps into a CBM floppy file. These dumps contain all records etc., and it is possible to create a real tape from that image. The commands are TREAD and TWRITE. The file sysrom.txt contains a descriptions of the system ROM entry points and the function they perform. And here's how to un-secret a program (see exec.txt): L$="7?008039" CALL "exec",L$ Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Feb 23 05:42:27 2009 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 12:42:27 +0100 (CET) Subject: Powering up a 20-year old MicroVAX II In-Reply-To: <49A27960.5080202@gjcp.net> References: <638EACBC22F127458865BBE72482CA29018815@ediserver.EDICONS.local> <49A27960.5080202@gjcp.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Feb 2009, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > This is the only popped electrolytic I have ever seen, in damn near 30 years > of fiddling with electronic stuff: > > http://www.gjcp.net/~gordonjcp/blowncap.jpg I do have tons of such caps, mostly from modern PC mainboards, ATX power supplies and graphics cards. This is *very* common today due to the high frequency and high current nature of the designs. Christian From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Mon Feb 23 05:41:48 2009 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 08:41:48 -0300 Subject: Central Point Option Boards available References: <49A1FF89.5010302@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <017d01c995ab$d8ec7090$c7a219bb@DeskJara> > I've seen a smattering of interest around Option Boards in this list every > few months, so I thought I'd mention that my last two option boards are > now up for auction, an older CopyIIPC Option Board and a Deluxe Option > Board: I have a boxed deluxe option board...I'd be more than happy to sell it :) From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Feb 23 06:45:42 2009 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2009 06:45:42 -0600 Subject: Powering up a 20-year old MicroVAX II In-Reply-To: <000f01c99458$e9b47340$bd1d59c0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> References: <002701c993ac$ec340560$c49c1020$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> <000f01c99458$e9b47340$bd1d59c0$@jarratt@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <49A29A76.4030300@mdrconsult.com> Robert Jarratt wrote: > After removing all the boards and leaving just the disk and tape drive for > load I impetuously decided to try powering it up. I knew the PSU (model > H7864) was set for 110V and made the switch to 240V (I am in the UK). When I > connected the power cord, after a few moments there was a loud pop, followed > by another before I could pull out the power cord, smoke rose from the PSU. > This sounded just like when I had once accidentally made a 110/240 mix-up. > > The question is, could it be that I had not made the switch to 240 > correctly, or could this just be down to the age of the PSU? I haven't