From tonym at compusource.net Mon Sep 1 00:27:57 2008 From: tonym at compusource.net (tonym) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2008 05:27:57 GMT Subject: Free Linux and OpenOffice - even if your email address doesn't Message-ID: <200809010127285.SM04984@[63.69.23.239]> >-----Original Message----- >From: Ray Arachelian ray at arachelian.com >Sent 9/1/2008 12:43:26 AM >To: General Discussion GeneralDiscussion@ >Subject: Re:Free Linux and OpenOffice - even if your email address doesn't > I know I said I wouldn't reply, but my God, man, you are totally out of touch with reality. I see stories about people like you on CNN - "He was always very quiet, and kept to himself..." Ray, check yourself into the nearest mental health institute, for your sake, for your family's sake. You're not stable, man. Ya got serious issues interfacing with humans, serious issues understanding simple 5th grade sentences, and some strange need for cursing to feel like a man... I once heard a saying when I was young: "Profanity is the device that makes ignorance audible." And what WAS all that psychotic, incoherent babbling? I have NO idea what you were ranting about, but seek help. Um, this WILL be my last message to, or about you, because there is NO way that you are a stable individual, with all that incoherent rambling, and I do NOT want to be the one responsible for you "snapping," and going on a spree... So, I'm pretty sure, knowing your type, that you want the last word, so go ahead and have it, so we can end this, and maybe avoid you going on a rampage of some sort and hurting yourself, or or worse, someone else. From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Sep 1 01:31:41 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 02:31:41 -0400 Subject: Free Linux and OpenOffice - even if your email address doesn't In-Reply-To: <48BB72EE.7020601@arachelian.com> References: <200808311802675.SM04100@[63.69.23.239]> <000401c90bcb$684615e0$9664a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com> <48BB72EE.7020601@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <200809010231.41865.pat@computer-refuge.org> At least this post was somewhat entertaining to read... On Monday 01 September 2008, Ray Arachelian wrote: > You might as well have said: > > And that, my liege, is how we know the earth to be banana-shaped. > > So that I might reply "This new learning amazes me, Sir Bedevere. > Explain again how sheep's bladders may be employed to prevent > earthquakes." > > "Eh. You are indeed brave, Sir Knight, but the fight is mine." > > "Quick, what... is the air-speed velocity of an unladen swallow?" > > "Exactly. So, logically... If... she... weighs... the same as a > duck,... she's made of wood. And therefore? A witch!" > > "Eh. You are indeed brave, Sir Knight, but the fight is mine." > > "Look, I'll have your leg. [chop] What are you going to do, bleed > on me?" > > "The Black Knight always triumphs! Have at you! Come on, then." [2nd > leg chopped] "Oh? All right, we'll call it a draw." > > "Oh. Oh, I see. Running away, eh?" > > " We're Knights of the Round Table. > Our shows are formidable, > But many times we're given rhymes > That are quite unsingable. > We're opera mad in Camelot. > We sing from the diaphragm a lot." > > " In war we're tough and able, > Quite indefatigable. > Between our quests we sequin vests and impersonate Clark Gable. > It's a busy life in Camelot." > > " I have to push the pram a lot." > > " Well, on second thought, let's not go to Camelot. It is a silly > place." > > "Oh, no. Oh, no! Bad, bad Zoot!" > > "Oh, wicked, bad, naughty Zoot! She has been setting alight to our > beacon, which, I have just remembered, is grail-shaped. It's not the > first time we've had this problem." > ( http://www.mwscomp.com/movies/grail/cut.au ) > > "Oh. Um, l-- look, i-- i-- if we built this large wooden badger--" > > And the Lord spake, saying, 'First shalt thou take out the Holy Pin. > Then, shalt thou count to three. No more. No less. Three shalt be the > number thou shalt count, and the number of the counting shall be > three. Four shalt thou not count, nor either count thou two, > excepting that thou then proceed to three. Five is right out. Once > the number three, being the third number, be reached, then, lobbest > thou thy Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch towards thy foe, who, being > naughty in My sight, shall snuff it.' > > "Listen. Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis > for a system of government. Supreme executive power derives from a > mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony." > > "You've got two empty halves of coconut and you're bangin' 'em > together." > > "How you English say, 'I one more time, mac, unclog my nose in your > direction', sons of a window-dresser!" > > Instead, "We shall say 'ni' again to you if you do not appease us... > We want... a shrubbery! One that looks nice. And not too > expensive. Now... go!" > > ... > > "Oh, what sad times are these when passing ruffians can say 'ni' at > will to old ladies. There is a pestilence upon this land. Nothing is > sacred. Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under > considerable economic stress at this period in history." > > "Fetchez la vache! > And now, remain gone, illegitimate-faced bugger-folk! And, if you > think you got a nasty taunting this time, you ain't heard nothing > yet, dappy English k-nnniggets! Thpppt!" -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Sep 1 02:47:27 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2008 23:47:27 -0800 Subject: Free Linux and OpenOffice - even if your email address doesn't References: <200809010127285.SM04984@[63.69.23.239]> Message-ID: <48BB9E0E.FCD45D6D@cs.ubc.ca> tonym: You're new on the list. The list has been through several episodes over the years regarding off-topic posting and it became bad enough that Big Daddy finally had to step in and lay down the law. He doesn't like being bothered about these issues. We had been doing pretty well over the last year until you arrived. You're initial post on this topic was way off-topic. Several others have tried to supply kindly hints which you seem obtuse to. With the initial post, your continued replies, derogatory language and name calling, you are accomplishing nothing more than making an ass of yourself. Ray & some others: You should know better. If there are any more replies on this thread I would ask that those in closer contact with Jay bring it to his attention. It's way off-topic, it's a mindless debate, and it's gone on too long. From tonym at compusource.net Mon Sep 1 02:15:57 2008 From: tonym at compusource.net (tonym) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2008 07:15:57 GMT Subject: HandyMan for Kaypro Message-ID: <200809010315504.SM04984@[63.69.23.239]> >-----Original Message----- >From: Allison ajp166 at bellatlantic.net >Sent 8/31/2008 11:23:55 AM >To: cctech at classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: HandyMan for Kaypro > > >Subject: HandyMan for Kaypro > From: "tonym" tonym at compusource.net > Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2008 06:02:12 +0000 (GMT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" cctalk at classiccmp.org > >I asked a while back on comp.os.cpm, and didn't get much response... > >Anyone remember how to use a HandyMan for the kaypro? >This was an add-in board, piggy-backed between the Z80 and socket, and had a TSR-like pop-up >Borland SideKick wanna-be. > >Trying to find some info, as a K10 I acquired came with a handyMan, and Advent 1MB RAMDisk, >and K4 came with an Advent Clock, RamDisk, ProGraphics board, Personality module, and 5mHz turboboard. > > >Tony > > >I ahve the Advent 1mb ramdisk and handyman with RTC plus the personality card for >the disks on my 4/84. Right now I'm up to my eyeballs to dig out the docs but >I do have them. > >To use handyman I think it was a control key sequency that brings it up. > >Allison > When it gets under eyeball level, I'd appreciate it if you could maybe dig something up. Were there different personality modules? This was in a Kaypro 4, which had all the above mentioned items. It currently is NOT working (strange squiggly horizontal line in the center), and the personality module looks rather simple. This machine also had (2) HH floppies, and a third FH in the bottom. Had a toggle switch with a proper label putinto the front panel for the TurboBoard, and an RCA jack on the back for the ProGraphics module. Very interesting - I'd never seen a ProGraphics board before. I'm going to start taking it apart to see what the issue is, but there are so many solder jumpers, and mini-grabber clips, I will have to take careful note of how everything currently is, before I start troubleshooting. Gotta make sure the mainboard has no issues, first and foremost. Tony From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon Sep 1 05:41:32 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon J. C. Pearce) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2008 11:41:32 +0100 Subject: Free Linux and OpenOffice - even if your email address doesn't In-Reply-To: <000401c90bcb$684615e0$9664a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com> References: <200808311802675.SM04100@[63.69.23.239]> <48BB2CDE.6040201@arachelian.com> <000401c90bcb$684615e0$9664a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com> Message-ID: <1220265692.6728.9.camel@kusanagi> On Sun, 2008-08-31 at 20:40 -0400, Tony Mori wrote: > Dang right - I have ENOUGH trying to support them on Windows. > Besides, As I've said, you CANNOT play current games on Linux. > Funny, I'm having a lot of fun with ET:Quake Wars with its native Linux port. > That doesn't mean Linux is not usable for home users - it's just that > *I* > don't need that extra headache. > Personal choice - grin and bear it. That's why I could never in good conscience recommend Windows to an inexperienced computer user, either. I get enough phone calls about stupid stuff. > > You know, you've been gritting me on going back and forth, and you're doing > the same thing. > There is NO activation in corporate environments - Home, yes. Corporate, no. That's one of the reasons I would never recommend Windows. > Um, seriously, have you put the Linux and XP versions of the EEE PC next to > each other, and seen them both? > I mean the REAL thing, not surfing - looks like you don;t get out much... I > mean the REAL hardware LIVE. > > I will STAND by what I said - the Linux version looks like a toy. > Does that mean Linux sucks, as you seem to get from that. > Um, no. Riiiiight. So XP's cartoon dogs and Teletubby background and garish clown-suit colour scheme don't look toy-like to you? I would be, quite frankly, *embarrassed* to be seen using XP in a professional environment. > Lemme write it in crayon for you... > > The linux distribution, and gui, on the EEE PC which comes with linux, is > not a very graphically "nice" implementation. Uh-huh. And Windows, with its car crash of different widgets and bright Fisher-Price colours is somehow better? > Um, again, you're haveing reading comprehension issues. > When did I say I haven't touched it since then? > I PLAINLY said MULTIPLE times, that we run RHEL at the office. We're getting > support plans for it. > I mean, seriously, what is it that you are having trouble comprehending? > I started using Linux about 1995, and haven't stopped since. > Would I put it on my wife or kids machine? > HELL no - I know better. > First, my kids would be ticked, because they couldn't run steam, or GWAR, or > any number of other games. I run Steam under Crossover. I haven't had any significant problems, and certainly none that Windows-using friends haven't had. Steam *is* pretty flaky. Gordon From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon Sep 1 06:04:07 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon J. C. Pearce) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2008 12:04:07 +0100 Subject: Free Linux and OpenOffice - even if your email address doesn't In-Reply-To: <200808311856472.SM04100@[63.69.23.239]> References: <200808311856472.SM04100@[63.69.23.239]> Message-ID: <1220267047.6728.10.camel@kusanagi> On Sun, 2008-08-31 at 22:56 +0000, tonym wrote: > I'm probably going to have to do the same thing... > I have multitudes of trans-ameritech cd's, not to mention super-old versions of RH, TurboLinux, > OpenLinux... > > Man - are we packrats, or what? I flung out my Computer Shopper cover CD from around '93 with Lasermoon on it, also the yellow-and-purple one from a little later with very very early Slackware. Simpler distros, for a simpler age... Gordon From als at thangorodrim.de Mon Sep 1 06:34:29 2008 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 13:34:29 +0200 Subject: Free Linux and OpenOffice - even if your email address doesn't In-Reply-To: <200808311856472.SM04100@[63.69.23.239]> References: <200808311856472.SM04100@[63.69.23.239]> Message-ID: <20080901113428.GB10761@thangorodrim.de> On Sun, Aug 31, 2008 at 10:56:00PM +0000, tonym wrote: > >-----Original Message----- > >From: David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > >Sent 8/31/2008 6:38:15 PM > >To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts cctalk at classiccmp.org > >Subject: Re: Free Linux and OpenOffice - even if your email address doesn't > > > >I just chucked out a bunch of Linux CDs from 1993/1994... > > > >-- > >David Griffith > > I'm probably going to have to do the same thing... > I have multitudes of trans-ameritech cd's, not to mention super-old versions of RH, TurboLinux, > OpenLinux... > > Man - are we packrats, or what? That was a hypothetical question, right? I still have the original boxed sets for MS-DOS 5.0, Novell DOS 7, Windows 3.1, OS/2 Warp3 ... although I haven't run most of those in years (the exception being MS-DOS in a ROMed incarnation inside a HP200LX) and only touched the boxes when moving homes ... again. Regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From ray at arachelian.com Mon Sep 1 09:45:28 2008 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2008 10:45:28 -0400 Subject: Free Linux and OpenOffice - even if your email address doesn't In-Reply-To: <200809010127285.SM04984@[63.69.23.239]> References: <200809010127285.SM04984@[63.69.23.239]> Message-ID: <48BC0008.9050403@arachelian.com> tonym wrote: > I know I said I wouldn't reply, > Got you! :-D ROTFL! Congrats, you've been Punk'd! Jeez, you didn't even get the obligatory Monty Python references, it's not like there was just one. Where have you been living all of this time? So exactly what makes you think you're qualified to be a sysadmin anyway? Of any sort? Yeah, if I had to guess, you don't do it for the love of sysadmining, you do it because it's a job. Oh, don't bother answering anymore, just take your microsoft educational offer and go. Maybe you're the type that needs to take microsoft up on their education... I'm done toying with you. I've had my grins already. :-) From ray at arachelian.com Mon Sep 1 09:46:13 2008 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2008 10:46:13 -0400 Subject: Free Linux and OpenOffice - even if your email address doesn't In-Reply-To: <48BB9E0E.FCD45D6D@cs.ubc.ca> References: <200809010127285.SM04984@[63.69.23.239]> <48BB9E0E.FCD45D6D@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <48BC0035.2020804@arachelian.com> Brent Hilpert wrote: > Ray & some others: You should know better. > You're right, I'm sorry, I just couldn't resist having some fun hazing him. :-) From ray at arachelian.com Mon Sep 1 09:54:02 2008 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2008 10:54:02 -0400 Subject: HP200LX (was Re: Free Linux and OpenOffice - even if your email address doesn't) In-Reply-To: <20080901113428.GB10761@thangorodrim.de> References: <200808311856472.SM04100@[63.69.23.239]> <20080901113428.GB10761@thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <48BC020A.1000201@arachelian.com> Alexander Schreiber wrote: > I still have the original boxed sets for MS-DOS 5.0, Novell DOS 7, > Windows 3.1, OS/2 Warp3 ... although I haven't run most of those in > years (the exception being MS-DOS in a ROMed incarnation inside a > HP200LX) and only touched the boxes when moving homes ... again. > Oh the HP200LX is a lovely little organizer. I still have mine, but these days I use it as a portable VT100. It's excellent for that. I bought the version of Stacker for it to squeeze out a few more bytes of storage out of the PCMCIA flash card. I'd use it as an organizer too, but I almost always have my MacBook with me... I suppose I should go get a USB serial cable for it, but meh, I enjoy the little HP200LX. I bought that little guy back in my college days and it was very useful, because I could take notes with it, and keep track of test/class schedules, but also because it had Lotus 123 built in and that was useful in the various science classes. Was far easier to setup a spreadsheet with all the various problem types than sit there and do the math individually. :-) The only shrink wrapped software I still have is a copy of SunOS 4.1.x - not gonna open it since I have the CD's from another copy elsewhere. I don't think it's worth much, but who knows. Someone somewhere might be willing to pay a lot for it someday, and if not, well it doesn't eat up that much shelf space. From als at thangorodrim.de Mon Sep 1 10:16:34 2008 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 17:16:34 +0200 Subject: HP200LX (was Re: Free Linux and OpenOffice - even if your email address doesn't) In-Reply-To: <48BC020A.1000201@arachelian.com> References: <200808311856472.SM04100@[63.69.23.239]> <20080901113428.GB10761@thangorodrim.de> <48BC020A.1000201@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <20080901151634.GC10761@thangorodrim.de> On Mon, Sep 01, 2008 at 10:54:02AM -0400, Ray Arachelian wrote: > Alexander Schreiber wrote: > > I still have the original boxed sets for MS-DOS 5.0, Novell DOS 7, > > Windows 3.1, OS/2 Warp3 ... although I haven't run most of those in > > years (the exception being MS-DOS in a ROMed incarnation inside a > > HP200LX) and only touched the boxes when moving homes ... again. > > > Oh the HP200LX is a lovely little organizer. I still have mine, but > these days I use it as a portable VT100. It's excellent for that. I > bought the version of Stacker for it to squeeze out a few more bytes of > storage out of the PCMCIA flash card. Yes, a very impressive little machine. I dropped mine a few times and all that happened was ejecting the batteries and PCMCIA card. Pop both back in and it works again. Very robust. And the battery life ... BTW: You can use a CF-to-PCMCIA-adapter and a CF card in it. It ran mine with a 256 MB CF-card, _plenty_ of storage. Made a great mobile terminal as well. Unfortunately, on mine the display went unusable a year or so ago (looks like the display ribbon cable lost it). So it is now sitting on the shelf. The PDA and mobile library job has been taken over by a N810. > I'd use it as an organizer too, but I almost always have my MacBook with > me... I suppose I should go get a USB serial cable for it, but meh, I > enjoy the little HP200LX. > I bought that little guy back in my college days and it was very useful, > because I could take notes with it, and keep track of test/class > schedules, but also because it had Lotus 123 built in and that was > useful in the various science classes. Was far easier to setup a > spreadsheet with all the various problem types than sit there and do the > math individually. :-) Yes, it was my trustu companion for years, I even wrote some code for it (to use it as a big clock when giving talks and to read books on it). > The only shrink wrapped software I still have is a copy of SunOS 4.1.x - > not gonna open it since I have the CD's from another copy elsewhere. I Oh, yes, there must be some Solaris 7 & 8 original packages around as well ... somewhere in my piles-of-wonderful-stuff ;-) Regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From ray at arachelian.com Mon Sep 1 11:12:25 2008 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2008 12:12:25 -0400 Subject: HP200LX (was Re: Free Linux and OpenOffice - even if your email address doesn't) In-Reply-To: <20080901151634.GC10761@thangorodrim.de> References: <200808311856472.SM04100@[63.69.23.239]> <20080901113428.GB10761@thangorodrim.de> <48BC020A.1000201@arachelian.com> <20080901151634.GC10761@thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <48BC1469.9010503@arachelian.com> Alexander Schreiber wrote: > > Yes, a very impressive little machine. I dropped mine a few times and > all that happened was ejecting the batteries and PCMCIA card. Pop both > back in and it works again. Very robust. And the battery life ... > Yeah, I actually got tired of swapping batteries and used those Lithium AA's meant for cameras. They last nearly forever and they're much lighter. > BTW: You can use a CF-to-PCMCIA-adapter and a CF card in it. It ran mine > with a 256 MB CF-card, _plenty_ of storage. > True, if I were to use it again as a PDA, I'd go that route. > Made a great mobile terminal as well. Unfortunately, on mine the display > went unusable a year or so ago (looks like the display ribbon cable > lost it). So it is now sitting on the shelf. Sorry to hear. Maybe you can find an 100LX or another dead 200LX and swap parts until you have a working machine. I stopped using mine as a PDA after I got a Newton 2100. I got a 2nd one for the wife, but she dropped hers and the touch pad no longer works on that one. But eventually stopped using the Newt as well once I started carrying a notebook machine with me to work. > Yes, it was my trustu companion for years, I even wrote some code for it > (to use it as a big clock when giving talks and to read books on it). > Nice. I vaguely remember there was some shareware that let you read text vertically, and some nice sets of fonts for it too. > Oh, yes, there must be some Solaris 7 & 8 original packages around as > well ... somewhere in my piles-of-wonderful-stuff ;-) > I've got bunches of Solaris 7, 8, 9 and 2.6 somewhere... but I don't think any of them are sealed. :-) I installed'em all at various times. From Tim at Rikers.org Mon Sep 1 11:34:16 2008 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2008 10:34:16 -0600 Subject: govliq: 12 HP 7907A disk drives (Ogden, UT) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48BC1988.3020400@Rikers.org> Richard wrote: > LOT (20) DISK DRIVES TO INCLUDE: (12) HP 7907A DISK DRIVE UNIT LR28576 > (1) MEGA DRIVE ENTERPRISE 8 FIXED/ REMOVABLE DISK DRIVE UNIT (7) > PANASONIC KXL-RW21A PORTABLE CD-R/ RW DRIVE FOR USB INTERFACE 6X > WRITE/ 4X REWRITE SPEED > > > As before, if anyone wants these, I'm willing to pick them up from > govliq and help you with packing and shipping. I'm considering it. Will these units run without the removable cartridge in them? I expect there are none included. Does anyone have one of these and care to comment? -- Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! ? ? ????????u poo? ??n??u??s ?no? u? 8-??n s? ? ? From Tim at Rikers.org Mon Sep 1 11:47:45 2008 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2008 10:47:45 -0600 Subject: eBay: Vintage HP-2115A Computer and Power Supply Message-ID: <48BC1CB1.8000904@Rikers.org> He wants 4k, which is a lot. That's likely 1$ per word of core. :) I've not seen another listed on eBay ever. Curious to see if anyone snags it. It's likely over when you read this. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130249823073 -- Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! ? ? ????????u poo? ??n??u??s ?no? u? 8-??n s? ? ? From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 1 13:02:24 2008 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 11:02:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ENIAC vs. ENIAC-on-a-Chip IC implementation In-Reply-To: <200809010650.m816nwjU049515@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <617699.64498.qm@web50503.mail.re2.yahoo.com> >From the excellent book, "The First Computers - History and Architectures," an interesting comparison: "The ENIAC contained 17,468 vacuum tubes, 70,000 resistors, 10,000 capacitors, 7,200 crystal diodes, and 6,000 switches, it had a footprint of about 33 m x 1 m, occupied a room of 170 square meters, dissipated about 140-174 kW and weighed 30 tons. In contrast, he chip realization contains 174,569 transistors, measures 7.4 mm x 5.3 mm (the PGA package measures 3.6 cm by 3.6 cm), dissipates a few Watts (depending on how many units run in parallel and the clock speed), and weighs a few grams. Also, in terms of power requirement the comparison is striking. In addition to the AC power for the heaters of the tubes, the card reader and the card punch, the ENIAC required 78 different DC voltage levels to power 10 different types of vacuum tubes. The power equipment was housed in 7 panels which were separate from the ENIAC?s 40 panels. Special ventilating equipment consisted of an elaborate system of fans and blowers to keep the temperature inside the panels below C. In contrast, the chip needs only one power supply of 5 V (or lower). The clock frequency used in the ENIAC was 100 kHz, while the one on the chip can easily run at 50 MHz or higher." http://www.ese.upenn.edu/~jan/eniacproj.html From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Mon Sep 1 13:53:22 2008 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2008 11:53:22 -0700 Subject: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry Computer logic circuits? References: Message-ID: <001301c90c64$0231a280$0301a8c0@hal9000> Tony is correct. I sell Tesla type ECC-83s to the audio tweaks. It is the functional equivalent ( except better ) of a 12AX7 dual triode. The filament on the ECC is on pins 4 and 5 with a center-tap connected to pin 9 such that you can run the filament at either 6.3 or 12.7 Volts. Best regards, Steven > > As per the 1982 Amateur Radio Handbook, ECC83 (and ECC82) are double > > triodes. Type 83 is described as a half wave rectifier in the 1951 > > Correct, but I think you've misinterpetted what I was saying. > > Philips/Mullard valve numbers are actually quite informative, and can be > decoded as follows : > > First letter gives the heater/filament rating : > A = 4V > B = 180mA??? > C = 200mA > D = 1.5V > E = 6.3V > G = 5V (early-ish ones, later used for miscellaneous ratings) > H = 12.6V? > K = 2V > O = Semiconductor (no heater) > P = 300mA > U = 100mA > Y = 450mA > > (Where a current is given, the valve was intended for series-string > operation) > > Subsequent letters give the electrode structure. For multi-section vales, > they're given in alphabetical order > A = diode > B = double diode > C = triode > D = power/output triode > E = signal tetrode > F = signal pentode > H = hextode/heptode > K = heptode (phantom-cathode tpye of fequency changer)/octode > L = power/output tetrode/pentode > M = tuning indicator ('magic eye') > N = thyratron (gas-filled triode/tetrode) > Q = nonode > X = gass-filed full-wave rectifier > Y = half-wave rectifier > Z = vaccume full-wave rectifier > > The first digit gives the base type > None/1 = miscllaneous (often only a single-digit number means P side > contact base) > 2 = B8B 'Loctal' For 3-digit numbers, 2 = B10B > 3 = International Octal > 4 = B8A Rimlock > 5 = B9G. For 3 digit numbers, 5 = B9D > 6,7 Subminiatores > 8 = B9A Noval > 9 = B7G (7 pin miniatore) > > Other digits distinguish between valves where the rest of the code is > the same. > > Now the oroginal poster was talking about some 12V-anode-voltage valves. > He'd rememebrs are frequency changer -- a triode hexode -- with an ECHnn > bumber. I beleive the full number of that valve is the ECH83. And that > the EBF83, and possibly the EF83 are als 12V anode types. > > This has nothing to do with the the American type 83 rectifier valve > > -tony From schwepes at moog.netaxs.com Mon Sep 1 14:05:58 2008 From: schwepes at moog.netaxs.com (schwepes at moog.netaxs.com) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 15:05:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: ENIAC vs. ENIAC-on-a-Chip IC implementation In-Reply-To: <617699.64498.qm@web50503.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <617699.64498.qm@web50503.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Why be surprised? The second group had a far higher state of the art. The first group, who actually built ENIAC, were probably actually shocked that the damned thing actually worked. The first Mercedes motorcar got ten miles to the gallon and had a top speed of ten miles an hour. You can imagine all of the places in the engine cycle from the carb to the transmission that could be cleaned up from the original which was not much more than a modern golf cart. bs On Mon, 1 Sep 2008, William Blair wrote: > >From the excellent book, "The First Computers - History and Architectures," an interesting comparison: > > "The ENIAC contained 17,468 vacuum tubes, 70,000 resistors, 10,000 capacitors, 7,200 crystal diodes, and 6,000 switches, it had a footprint of about 33 m x 1 m, occupied a room of 170 square meters, dissipated about 140-174 kW and weighed 30 tons. In contrast, he chip realization contains 174,569 transistors, measures 7.4 mm x 5.3 mm (the PGA package measures 3.6 cm by 3.6 cm), dissipates a few Watts (depending on how many units run in parallel and the clock speed), and weighs a few grams. Also, in terms of power requirement the comparison is striking. In addition to the AC power for the heaters of the tubes, the card reader and the card punch, the ENIAC required 78 different DC voltage levels to power 10 different types of vacuum tubes. The power equipment was housed in 7 panels which were separate from the ENIAC?s 40 panels. Special ventilating equipment consisted of an elaborate system of fans and blowers to keep the temperature inside the panels > below C. In contrast, the chip needs only one power supply of 5 V (or lower). The clock frequency used in the ENIAC was 100 kHz, while the one on the chip can easily run at 50 MHz or higher." > > http://www.ese.upenn.edu/~jan/eniacproj.html > > > > > From schwepes at moog.netaxs.com Mon Sep 1 14:18:05 2008 From: schwepes at moog.netaxs.com (schwepes at moog.netaxs.com) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 15:18:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry Computer logic circuits? In-Reply-To: <001301c90c64$0231a280$0301a8c0@hal9000> References: <001301c90c64$0231a280$0301a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: Notice that in the bad old days part numbers could be decifered to tell you what the hell they actually did? We don't have those conventions anymore it seems. bs On Mon, 1 Sep 2008, Scanning wrote: > Tony is correct. I sell Tesla type ECC-83s to the audio tweaks. It is the > functional equivalent ( except better ) of a 12AX7 dual triode. The filament > on the ECC is on pins 4 and 5 with a center-tap connected to pin 9 such that > you can run the filament at either 6.3 or 12.7 Volts. > > Best regards, Steven > > > > > As per the 1982 Amateur Radio Handbook, ECC83 (and ECC82) are double > > > triodes. Type 83 is described as a half wave rectifier in the 1951 > > > > Correct, but I think you've misinterpetted what I was saying. > > > > Philips/Mullard valve numbers are actually quite informative, and can be > > decoded as follows : > > > > First letter gives the heater/filament rating : > > A = 4V > > B = 180mA??? > > C = 200mA > > D = 1.5V > > E = 6.3V > > G = 5V (early-ish ones, later used for miscellaneous ratings) > > H = 12.6V? > > K = 2V > > O = Semiconductor (no heater) > > P = 300mA > > U = 100mA > > Y = 450mA > > > > (Where a current is given, the valve was intended for series-string > > operation) > > > > Subsequent letters give the electrode structure. For multi-section vales, > > they're given in alphabetical order > > A = diode > > B = double diode > > C = triode > > D = power/output triode > > E = signal tetrode > > F = signal pentode > > H = hextode/heptode > > K = heptode (phantom-cathode tpye of fequency changer)/octode > > L = power/output tetrode/pentode > > M = tuning indicator ('magic eye') > > N = thyratron (gas-filled triode/tetrode) > > Q = nonode > > X = gass-filed full-wave rectifier > > Y = half-wave rectifier > > Z = vaccume full-wave rectifier > > > > The first digit gives the base type > > None/1 = miscllaneous (often only a single-digit number means P side > > contact base) > > 2 = B8B 'Loctal' For 3-digit numbers, 2 = B10B > > 3 = International Octal > > 4 = B8A Rimlock > > 5 = B9G. For 3 digit numbers, 5 = B9D > > 6,7 Subminiatores > > 8 = B9A Noval > > 9 = B7G (7 pin miniatore) > > > > Other digits distinguish between valves where the rest of the code is > > the same. > > > > Now the oroginal poster was talking about some 12V-anode-voltage valves. > > He'd rememebrs are frequency changer -- a triode hexode -- with an ECHnn > > bumber. I beleive the full number of that valve is the ECH83. And that > > the EBF83, and possibly the EF83 are als 12V anode types. > > > > This has nothing to do with the the American type 83 rectifier valve > > > > -tony > > > From classiccmp at crash.com Mon Sep 1 14:38:00 2008 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2008 12:38:00 -0700 Subject: HP200LX, e-text and vertical reader In-Reply-To: <48BC1469.9010503@arachelian.com> References: <200808311856472.SM04100@[63.69.23.239]> <20080901113428.GB10761@thangorodrim.de> <48BC020A.1000201@arachelian.com> <20080901151634.GC10761@thangorodrim.de> <48BC1469.9010503@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <48BC4498.4010704@crash.com> Ray Arachelian wrote: > > Alexander Schreiber wrote: >> >> Yes, it was my trustu companion for years, I even wrote some code for it >> (to use it as a big clock when giving talks and to read books on it). > > Nice. I vaguely remember there was some shareware that let you read text > vertically, and some nice sets of fonts for it too. I picked up a surplus/remaindered PoquetPC back in the mid-90s, with some 2MB SRAM cards and the serial adapter, from California Digital. It was larger but cheaper than the HP LX handhelds, only ran MS-DOS 3.3 but was equally practical. Still have it around here somewhere... One use for the critter was to read e-texts from Project Gutenberg on the subway in Manhattan during rush hour. The software I used was called "VR," short for the Vertical Reader. Wonderful stuff, I wound up finally reading a whole bunch of Burroughs' John Carter stories that way. There are still signs of VR and this class of palmtop out there. Here are some links: Good PoqetPC site with VR available for download: http://www.bmason.com/PoqetPC/software/index.html#VR Fourth Q&A here covers VR, but is likely out of date: http://www.faqs.org/faqs/hp/palmtops-faq/section-9.html VR is mentioned halfway through this 1999 interview with Avi Meshar of D&A Software: http://www.hplx.net/interviews.dasoft.html FWIW, --S. From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Mon Sep 1 14:54:11 2008 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko at juno.com) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 19:54:11 GMT Subject: Heath/Zenith S/W Docs & Mags Available Message-ID: <20080901.125411.22941.0@webmail10.vgs.untd.com> I have some H/Z Software manuals; they're for the assembler, BASIC-80, etc. Also the manual for the z-80 assembler course, the CP/M 'Introductory guide', and some other stuff, plus a few REMark magazines from the early-mid 80's. Asking postage (should go media mail, no problemo) plus 10%. If there's no interest, this will all be recycled. E-mail me off-list if interested. WOuld prefer to unload all of this at once. Thanks, Jeff ____________________________________________________________ Find the right teaching school to meet your educational needs. Click to learn more. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3njBiBW5OwmMA98olWQ4tRv7CnHEd0LOdiCImbEksE71UNMS/ From tonym at compusource.net Mon Sep 1 15:04:44 2008 From: tonym at compusource.net (tonym) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2008 20:04:44 GMT Subject: Osborne items available Message-ID: <20080901160466.SM06140@[63.69.23.239]> For Osborne 1: 2 floppies, setup as A: and B: from factory CRT Mainboard (SD, but I think I have one DD upgrade board) I THINK I also have a front panel or 2 No case or psu available - PSU was bad, and case was in HORRID condition For Osborne Executive: CRT, FDD's, frame, and questionable mainboard for Exec, although 128kb ram card IS good. CRT and Mainboard are questionable, so those 2 can go free+shipping. Might also have the front panel for this... Make an offer that at least covers gas to the post office :) Items are in S. Fla Tony From shumaker at att.net Mon Sep 1 15:16:34 2008 From: shumaker at att.net (s shumaker) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2008 16:16:34 -0400 Subject: Stuff to get rid of in Bakersfield California In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48BC4DA2.50603@att.net> Can you ship? I'm unable to come pick it up (extended business trip back east) but if you can ship, I'd be interested in the Horizon and whatever S100 stuff you'd like to part with. If you can ship, what would you have in mind cost wise for a total. s shumaker Boulder Creek, CA David Griffith wrote: > I have too much crap in my storage units and I need to get rid of one. > I thought I'd be able to sell off this stuff on ebay, but I don't think I > have the drive to deal with the volume I've amassed. The highlights here > are a Macintosh SE, a Northstar Horizon (missing the lid), several 8-inch > floppy drives, assorted S100 cards, and lots of documentation. I need to > get rid of this stuff in a week and a half. > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 1 15:44:48 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 21:44:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: Free Linux and OpenOffice - even if your email address doesn't In-Reply-To: <745071.52922.qm@web65509.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Aug 31, 8 11:20:13 am Message-ID: > > but when does someone get the source code for anything, outside of > open source warez? > (curious what open source stuff TD is using...) To answer the first part first : There are many cases when you can buy the source-code and not have the right to redistribute it -- in other words the program is not open-source in the accepted sense. One classic (!) example of this (which I haven't done) is that you could buy source liucenses for many of he PDP11 OSes, and also IIRC VMS. Now, as for examples of times I did buy non-open source code, I bought the Technical Reference manuals for the IBM PC, PC/XT, PC/AT, PCjr, etc. Those include the BIOS sources. They are not open, they are copyrighted by IBM. I also have the Apple ][+ refernce manual (included with the machine) and the //e refernce (which I bought separately). Again, you get the monitor ROM source. But it's not 'open'. And of course for the HP71B calculator you could (and I did) buy the 'Internal Design Specifications'. Volume 3 of the Software IDS is the commented source to the ROM. SOme other HP calcualtor ROM sourcves were distributed throught the user groups under the NOMAS scheme. I don't think they're truely 'open' though. I'm not sure what the exact status of LDOS (TRS-80 operating system) is now. I know the sources (to all but the Microsoft bits of BASIC) can be distributed now, and are, IIRC on Tim Mann's site. But they may not be truely open. As for what true open-source stuff I run, well, basically an old linux distribution, all the stuff that comes with that (gcc, vi, etc) and various assemblers, utilities, etc that I've pulled from the internet. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 1 15:49:09 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 21:49:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: Free Linux and OpenOffice - even if your email address doesn't In-Reply-To: <662844.20432.qm@web65501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Aug 31, 8 11:26:27 am Message-ID: > > > this list isn't about service contracts and call centers. Tony was Can you get serivce contacts for all classic computers???? Is there a call centre for techncial support (note : anyone who publishes my 'phone number and claims that's what it is will be connected between fianl anode and chassis of my DEC VR14 [1] :-)). [1] This is the vector monitor for a VT11/GT40/etc. The EHT to the final anode comes from a sealerd (oil-filled?) can which takes mains in (4 connetions, series/parallel wiring for 115 or 230V mains) and gives out about 10kV/ According to the schematic printed on the can, it's a mains transdformer follewed by a voltage doubler and could easily supply enough current to be deadly. I am always very careful when working on that monitor. > simply stating (though not for the first time LOL LOL) that's the way > he does his business. > Well, I've got to remind the newcomers ;-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 1 15:54:32 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 21:54:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: Free Linux and OpenOffice - even if your email address doesn't In-Reply-To: <20080831145438.I51773@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 31, 8 03:10:24 pm Message-ID: > If I carry my own machine, and only use theirs as a terminal, I frankly > don't CARE what software platform they pick. Well, I do if I either have to fix it myself (unlikely) or if it's so broken it can't even be used as a termianl. About 10 years ago I made the mistake of trying to use the terminal emolator that came with the then-current version of Windows (I forget which it was) -- not on any of my machines I hasten to add -- and the VT100 mode was so broken that I couldn't use any full-screen editor on any unix or VMS machine that I tried. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 1 16:04:06 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 22:04:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: Free Linux and OpenOffice - even if your email address doesn't In-Reply-To: <20080831151315.W51773@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 31, 8 03:26:04 pm Message-ID: > I never take delivery on a car until AFTER I have a copy of the FSM > (Factory Service Manual). You have sense!. Although I suspect I'm one of the few people who actively uys serivce manuals for cars (and other devices) that I am very unlikely to ever own. Just for interest. > > I don't often have that option with computers, but in 1981, I spent a lot > of time in the PC Tech Ref before I turned on the 5150. I certainly read through the IBM PC/XT Techref before I got my first PC-compatible machine (which was a genuiine 5160 PC/XT). I also took that machine totally apart the day I got it, looked at the PCBs, read the schemaitcs again, and so on. On a couple of occasions I've bought (small-ish) bits of classic computer hardware becuase I had the technical manuals. An example : Many years ago somebody was clearing out an office and said 'Hey, you like old computers, are these any use to you?' and handed me the manuals for the Sharp PC1350 pocket computer. Not just the BASIC-programming user manual, but also the machine language manual and the service manual. Of course (beling me), I accepted them with thanks. About 10 years later I fianlly found an affordable example of that machine to go with the manuals. ObCC. That machine takes litlte RAM cards, specific to Sharp. Mine came with 2 or 3 8K cards, and upon taking one apart (very easy to do, but be careful separating the very thin PCB from the self-adhesive bits fo the frame -- the correct way to pull it is shown in that service manual...), it was obvious that the card consisted of a single SMD 6264 RAM chip and that there was space on the PCB for a second RAM chip and a 14 pin chip, which, after a little tracing, had to invert a signal. It was clear a 74HC00 would do the job. Those were easy to obtain in SMD packages, the RAM is not easy to find now. In the end I took apart an HP42S calculator, carefully desoldered the RAM from that machine, replaced it with a 62256 and moved the link (thus making a 32K HP42S) and soldered the salvaged 6264 and a 74HC00 into the Sharp RAM card, thus making it a 16K one. And yes, it did all work in the end. -tony From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Sep 1 16:54:23 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2008 15:54:23 -0600 Subject: Free Linux and OpenOffice - even if your email address doesn't In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48BC648F.4030206@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > Well, I've got to remind the newcomers ;-) > > While they still live. ;) > -tony > > So what is a example of a NON-BROKEN terminal I can use as a standard DEC terminal? I am thinking of picking a used one off E-Pay. For the TROLL's ... I am running MINUX 3. From tonym at compusource.net Mon Sep 1 17:15:05 2008 From: tonym at compusource.net (tonym) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2008 22:15:05 GMT Subject: Service manuals and classis computer Was: Free Linux and OpenOffice Message-ID: <200809011815566.SM03412@[63.69.23.239]> >-----Original Message----- >From: Tony Duell ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk >Sent 9/1/2008 5:04:06 PM >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: Free Linux and OpenOffice - even if your email address doesn't > > I never take delivery on a car until AFTER I have a copy of the FSM > (Factory Service Manual). >You have sense!. Although I suspect I'm one of the few people who >actively uys serivce manuals for cars (and other devices) that I am very >unlikely to ever own. Just for interest. > > I'm in agreement with you there. I like doing CERTAIN things on my own cars. I won't do things like oil changes, because most times, it isn't financially worth the effort. I'd have to buy oil, buy a filter, get the truck up, drain it, then figure out what to do with the old oil, as here you have to pay to dispose of it. Frankly, by the time it's said and done, most times it's cheaper to have someone do it, as someone ALWAYS has a special in my area for $14.99-19.99. Of course, sometimes I'll do it just because i feel like doing it... However, things like brake work, etc, I'll do myself. It's highway robbery what they charge. Last time, they wanted $149.99 parts+labor to change the stinking brake PADS on my pickup! Cost me $30 + about 15-20 minutes for BOTH sides! > > but when does someone get the source code for anything, outside of > open source warez? > (curious what open source stuff TD is using...) > Although we have the source to some of the systems we run that are developed in-house, other systems that we are pretty dependant on, we will negotiate a source code escrow contract, so in the event the company goes belly-up, we aren't completely screwed. I mean, yeah, it'll take a while to get people looking at the code, figuring it out, etc... but at least you have SOME kind of chance! One prime example is Royal Caribbean. They run a property management system named Encore, which originally was named "The Captain," from a company named Encore, which ran on Tandems (I think on Linux now, or will be - most dev systems are under SCO or Linux, and the programming environment is DB/C), and they had a source code escrow agreement. When Encore went under (I think RCI was their only major deal), they basically bought the assets, and got the source out of escrow, and have maintained it in-house ever since. Tony From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Sep 1 17:21:38 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 18:21:38 -0400 Subject: More stuff to go... Message-ID: <200809011821.38410.pat@computer-refuge.org> I've got a few more things to get rid of this week... I can probably ship this stuff as it's relatively small, but pickup is preferred (and will probably result in a discount :). Sun Sparcstation 2 w/ 12MB ram, and a Matrox CG-12 (370-1370) 3D graphics adapter. $20 for the machine + board or $15 for the graphics board alone. Box of Apple II software, including The Print Shop, companion, and two graphics disks, Flight Simulator, and a few other things. $10 for it all. Everything looks complete, but I haven't tried any of it out. The boxes are included, but a bit smooshed from being stored in a pile for a long time. $10 Dell DLT-1 tape drive, internal. This appeared to work, the one time I tried it. Includes a cleaning tape, and a few DLT-4 tape media. $10 Network Associates "Full Duplex Fast Ethernet Pod", part # NGC-1507601. It has 3 10/100 network jacks on the back (two are MII or RJ45, other is RJ45 only), a serial port, "Sync In" and "Sync Out", and a DIN-8 power connector. Don't have the power supply, but it claims to use 12V at 4.2A. Untested. $10 Three SGI Indigo 2's. These I will not ship, as they're too big/heavy to easily ship. One is an Impact (purple), one an Impact 10000 (purple) and one EXtreme (teal). $10 each I also have boxes upon boxes of (used and degaussed) DLT-4 media. I'd like to get about $1/tape for that. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Mon Sep 1 17:36:16 2008 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 17:36:16 -0500 Subject: Peoria, IL - Anyone interested in a S/36? (5363, the smaller one) In-Reply-To: <48BC648F.4030206@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <48BC648F.4030206@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: I have a 5363 that I'm not going to do anything with for awhile. I'm not going to pitch it or anything like that, I just wondered if someone wanted to do something more productive than holding up monitors with it. No money, you just have to come here (Peoria, IL) and get it. or bribe me enough to ship it. I have two after-market terminals for it, at least one of which works - They're 525something-compatible (multisession? I don't remember) twinax devices that provide a system printer via a parallel port, but you have to supply the printer because I don't want to give mine up. The machine worked the last time I powered it on, which was about a year ago. If anyone is interested, I will try to IPL it before you come here to make sure it still works. I have manuals for it as well, but I would have to dig those out, so I don't know which ones I have. As for software, this one has a (synchronous?) serial controller and was a (SNA?) network node, so it has the software for those, and I think it has BASIC. It ran someone's business at some point before I got it, I think it was a landscaping supply business. The display panel on the front got cosmetically damaged by one of our students when I had it at work - A gash was cut into the plastic under the numbers. It works fine though. I don't have the key, but the key switch is in the normal position. I may or may not have rewired normal to be "service", I can't remember. Whatever position it's in, you're allowed to IPL. Again, it's not getting pitched or anything, it's just that I'm not going to do anything with it for awhile, if ever. It's kinda wasteful to just have it sitting there. For those who don't know, a 5363 is a large-ish tower case with EDSI disks and twinax peripherals. It's somewhat large and heavy, so shipping it wouldn't be cheap. It can be transported in an average car and carried by one reasonably strong person or two average people. It runs on normal wall power. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Sep 1 19:55:35 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 17:55:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: infocom on other systems Message-ID: Yesterday I unearthed some unopened Infocom games which will go on Ebay tomorrow afternoon. What caught my eye was a blurb indicating that games were available for the DECmate, DEC Rainbow, HP 150 and 110, and TI Professional. I'm especially interested in the DECmate version. Does anyone know anything more about these obscure ports of Infocom games? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From tpeters at mixcom.com Mon Sep 1 20:20:04 2008 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2008 20:20:04 -0500 Subject: More stuff to go... In-Reply-To: <200809011821.38410.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20080901201809.01f759c8@localhost> At 06:21 PM 9/1/2008 -0400, you wrote: >I also have boxes upon boxes of (used and degaussed) DLT-4 media. I'd >like to get about $1/tape for that. With the servo track erased by degaussing, aren't they doorstops? My understanding was that there is a timing track written at manufacture, and it can't be put back with a standard tape drive. Inquiring minds want to know. ----- 596. [Science] Experience has shown that science frequently develops most fruitfully once we learn to examine the things that seem the simplest, instead of those that seem the most mysterious. --Marvin Minsky --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From rivie at ridgenet.net Mon Sep 1 21:04:26 2008 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 19:04:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: infocom on other systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Sep 2008, David Griffith wrote: > > Yesterday I unearthed some unopened Infocom games which will go on Ebay > tomorrow afternoon. What caught my eye was a blurb indicating that games > were available for the DECmate, DEC Rainbow, HP 150 and 110, and TI > Professional. I'm especially interested in the DECmate version. Does > anyone know anything more about these obscure ports of Infocom games? Not specifically, but bear in mind that the DECmate II with the APU was a fine CP/M machine. Since there was a CP/M version of many of the Infocom games, it would just be a matter of slapping that onto an RX50. -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Sep 1 21:20:35 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 19:20:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: infocom on other systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Sep 2008, Roger Ivie wrote: > On Mon, 1 Sep 2008, David Griffith wrote: > > > > Yesterday I unearthed some unopened Infocom games which will go on Ebay > > tomorrow afternoon. What caught my eye was a blurb indicating that games > > were available for the DECmate, DEC Rainbow, HP 150 and 110, and TI > > Professional. I'm especially interested in the DECmate version. Does > > anyone know anything more about these obscure ports of Infocom games? > > Not specifically, but bear in mind that the DECmate II with the APU > was a fine CP/M machine. Since there was a CP/M version of many of the > Infocom games, it would just be a matter of slapping that onto an RX50. It's the pdp8-ness that made me take notice. I have a thing for getting z-machine interpreters running on weird platforms and right now the pdp8 and pdp11 strike my fancy. Recently someone ported my pet project, Frotz, to the iPhone. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From rick at rickmurphy.net Mon Sep 1 21:34:58 2008 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2008 22:34:58 -0400 Subject: infocom on other systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200809020234.m822YxnB026040@mail.rickmurphy.net> At 10:20 PM 9/1/2008, David Griffith wrote: >On Mon, 1 Sep 2008, Roger Ivie wrote: > > > On Mon, 1 Sep 2008, David Griffith wrote: > > > > > > Yesterday I unearthed some unopened Infocom games which will go > on Ebay > > > tomorrow afternoon. What caught my eye was a blurb indicating > that games > > > were available for the DECmate, DEC Rainbow, HP 150 and 110, and TI > > > Professional. I'm especially interested in the DECmate > version. Does > > > anyone know anything more about these obscure ports of Infocom games? > > > > Not specifically, but bear in mind that the DECmate II with the APU > > was a fine CP/M machine. Since there was a CP/M version of many of the > > Infocom games, it would just be a matter of slapping that onto an RX50. > >It's the pdp8-ness that made me take notice. Those games were for the Decmate II *with the CP/M coprocessor*. Not native PDP-8 code. >I have a thing for getting >z-machine interpreters running on weird platforms and right now the pdp8 >and pdp11 strike my fancy. Recently someone ported my pet project, Frotz, >to the iPhone. Good luck with getting the interpreter running on the PDP-8. I'd say that it's pretty much impossible. Getting something as simple as Adventure fit onto the PDP-8 was a lot more work than I'd like to admit. Anything more complex is out of the question. -Rick From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Sep 1 21:46:23 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2008 20:46:23 -0600 Subject: infocom on other systems In-Reply-To: <200809020234.m822YxnB026040@mail.rickmurphy.net> References: <200809020234.m822YxnB026040@mail.rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: <48BCA8FF.2050805@jetnet.ab.ca> Rick Murphy wrote: > > Good luck with getting the interpreter running on the PDP-8. I'd say > that it's pretty much impossible. > Getting something as simple as Adventure fit onto the PDP-8 was a lot > more work than I'd like to admit. Anything more complex is out of the > question. In 1965, I don't think many people expected a PDP8 to have games on a ~ 20 grand machine. What is wrong with the 4K chess program any how instead :) > -Rick > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Sep 1 23:23:59 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2008 22:23:59 -0600 Subject: OT: Needed information since the list is slow In-Reply-To: <200809020234.m822YxnB026040@mail.rickmurphy.net> References: <200809020234.m822YxnB026040@mail.rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: <48BCBFDF.1080408@jetnet.ab.ca> *FOUND READING ON THE NET* This ultra modern aluminum foil hat will protect your pet from the brain scanning rays of the NSA, certain 'auction' websites, fbi.com, and CIA satellites that are monitoring their little subversive thoughts. You may not have considered this before, but your lead lined hat is worthless if your pet can give away your secrets to the very people most dangerous to you - your government! But we both know that the government's 'pet mind reading threat' pales in comparison to the unknown dangers of aliens reading your pet's brainwaves. The PFHT Special Edition [PFHTSE, pronounced Pfootsie], has a hydrocarbon-chain lining specially designed to filter the hydrogen band alien brain scans. This space age material may appear to the untrained eye to be just plain plastic shopping bag, but your pet will know the difference. All government and alien I/O is cut off. It's like a firewall for your pet's brain. From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Sep 1 23:24:50 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 00:24:50 -0400 Subject: More stuff to go... In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20080901201809.01f759c8@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20080901201809.01f759c8@localhost> Message-ID: <200809020024.50525.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 01 September 2008, Tom Peters wrote: > At 06:21 PM 9/1/2008 -0400, you wrote: > >I also have boxes upon boxes of (used and degaussed) DLT-4 media. > > I'd like to get about $1/tape for that. > > With the servo track erased by degaussing, aren't they doorstops? My > understanding was that there is a timing track written at > manufacture, and it can't be put back with a standard tape drive. > > Inquiring minds want to know. Not on DLT. DLT is serpentine, and without any servo track. SuperDLT has an "optical" servo track, so it's also safe to degauss. In fact, to write to DLT media in at a different density than it was recorded at (eg, DLT4000 vs 7000 vs 8000), you have to degauss it first. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 1 23:30:55 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 21:30:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Needed information since the list is slow In-Reply-To: <48BCBFDF.1080408@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200809020234.m822YxnB026040@mail.rickmurphy.net> <48BCBFDF.1080408@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20080901212905.G952@shell.lmi.net> Recent detailed analysis has shown that the aluminum foil hat operates as an antenna. On Mon, 1 Sep 2008, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > *FOUND READING ON THE NET* > > This ultra modern aluminum foil hat will protect your pet from the brain > scanning rays of the NSA, certain 'auction' websites, fbi.com, and CIA > satellites that are monitoring their little subversive thoughts. You may > not have considered this before, but your lead lined hat is worthless if > your pet can give away your secrets to the very people most dangerous to > you - your government! > But we both know that the government's 'pet mind reading threat' pales > in comparison to the unknown dangers of aliens reading your pet's > brainwaves. The PFHT Special Edition [PFHTSE, pronounced Pfootsie], has > a hydrocarbon-chain lining specially designed to filter the hydrogen > band alien brain scans. This space age material may appear to the > untrained eye to be just plain plastic shopping bag, but your pet will > know the difference. All government and alien I/O is cut off. It's like > a firewall for your pet's brain. From tonym at compusource.net Mon Sep 1 23:32:04 2008 From: tonym at compusource.net (tonym) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 04:32:04 GMT Subject: OT: Needed information since the list is slow Message-ID: <200809020032894.SM03864@[63.69.23.239]> >-----Original Message----- >From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca >Sent 9/2/2008 12:23:59 AM >To: General Discussion GeneralDiscussion@ >Subject: OT: Needed information since the list is slow > >*FOUND READING ON THE NET* > >This ultra modern aluminum foil hat will protect your pet from the brain >scanning rays of the NSA, certain 'auction' websites, fbi.com, and CIA >satellites that are monitoring their little subversive thoughts. You may >not have considered this before, but your lead lined hat is worthless if >your pet can give away your secrets to the very people most dangerous to >you - your government! >But we both know that the government's 'pet mind reading threat' pales >in comparison to the unknown dangers of aliens reading your pet's >brainwaves. The PFHT Special Edition [PFHTSE, pronounced Pfootsie], has >a hydrocarbon-chain lining specially designed to filter the hydrogen >band alien brain scans. This space age material may appear to the >untrained eye to be just plain plastic shopping bag, but your pet will >know the difference. All government and alien I/O is cut off. It's like >a firewall for your pet's brain. > That the same material as in that Mel Gibson movie a few years back, with the aliens? What was it called, Signals, or Signs, or something similar? When his younger brother (or widow's brother - I forgot) put foil hats it on his head, and Mel's kids heads? "Swing Away!" Tony From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Sep 1 23:54:09 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 21:54:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: about shipping Message-ID: Some people have asked me to catalog and ship stuff from my storage unit. The stuff for which I can do that I list on Ebay (http://myworld.ebay.com/frotz661). A batch of ten items goes up this Tuesday and more will go up in similar volumes in the coming days. What I'm asking people to do is come and cart off mostly documentation that I haven't the time or willpower to catalog and scan. If you see something special sitting alone, make an offer. There are also some large "good lord, what is that?" things that someone might be more interested in than the scrapper would. I'd love it if I can get someone from southern California who, for whatever reason, needs to drive up to the SF area to stop off at my place to get a load for the Computer History Museum. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Sep 2 00:11:42 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 22:11:42 -0700 Subject: infocom on other systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 7:20 PM -0700 9/1/08, David Griffith wrote: >It's the pdp8-ness that made me take notice. I have a thing for getting >z-machine interpreters running on weird platforms and right now the pdp8 >and pdp11 strike my fancy. Recently someone ported my pet project, Frotz, >to the iPhone. Remember there is a z-machine interpreter written by Johnny Billquist that runs on RSX, it was ported by Megan Gentry to run on RT-11. I believe the latest updates still run on RT-11, though IIRC a couple years back a couple of us had to do some testing and work with Johnny to keep it working on RT-11 due to some changes he'd made. I would *REALLY* love to see one of the original Infocom copies for the PDP-11. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Sep 2 00:20:06 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 22:20:06 -0700 Subject: More stuff to go... In-Reply-To: <200809020024.50525.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20080901201809.01f759c8@localhost> <200809020024.50525.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: At 12:24 AM -0400 9/2/08, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >On Monday 01 September 2008, Tom Peters wrote: >> At 06:21 PM 9/1/2008 -0400, you wrote: >> >I also have boxes upon boxes of (used and degaussed) DLT-4 media. >> > I'd like to get about $1/tape for that. >> >> With the servo track erased by degaussing, aren't they doorstops? My >> understanding was that there is a timing track written at >> manufacture, and it can't be put back with a standard tape drive. >> >> Inquiring minds want to know. > >Not on DLT. DLT is serpentine, and without any servo track. SuperDLT >has an "optical" servo track, so it's also safe to degauss. > >In fact, to write to DLT media in at a different density than it was >recorded at (eg, DLT4000 vs 7000 vs 8000), you have to degauss it >first. We used to regularly degauss DLT III and DLT IV media at work, with positive results. IIRC, we also degaussed SDLT tapes. The important thing is having a degausser capable of doing the job right. At one point we had people that would degauss every tape prior to putting it in a tape library, now they only do select "problem" tapes. Over the years we've chipped millions of dollars worth of used DLT and SDLT tapes as we upgraded to newer revisions. :^( Though when possible we provide them to other groups in the company that are using the older drives. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Tue Sep 2 01:19:56 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 06:19:56 +0000 Subject: infocom on other systems In-Reply-To: <200809020234.m822YxnB026040@mail.rickmurphy.net> References: <200809020234.m822YxnB026040@mail.rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: <20080902061956.GA28439@usap.gov> On Mon, Sep 01, 2008 at 10:34:58PM -0400, Rick Murphy wrote: > At 10:20 PM 9/1/2008, David Griffith wrote: > >It's the pdp8-ness that made me take notice. > > Those games were for the Decmate II *with the CP/M coprocessor*. Not > native PDP-8 code. True, unfortunately. > >I have a thing for getting > >z-machine interpreters running on weird platforms and right now the pdp8 > >and pdp11 strike my fancy. I completely appreciate the sentiment - that's why I helped out a couple of years back on an 1802 Z-Machine. It was lots of fun and a great thrill when it worked for the first time. If anyone on the list was at VCFmw last year, I had an Elf-2000 and an Embedded Elf with me, running a couple of games. > >Recently someone ported my pet project, Frotz, > >to the iPhone. Neat. > Good luck with getting the interpreter running on the PDP-8. I'd say > that it's pretty much impossible. I don't know about _impossible_ but it certainly is extremely difficult. > Getting something as simple as Adventure fit onto the PDP-8 was a lot > more work than I'd like to admit. Anything more complex is out of the > question. It's not a case of brute-force vs complexity... Adventure is a monolithic FORTRAN (now FORTRAN or C) program, and even with overlays, it's a) huge, and b) internally complex. The advantage of the Z-machine is that the _game_ complexity is all in the game file. The platform just has to handle a few dozen opcodes and be able to swap in needed portions of the game file on smaller hosts (larger hosts, i.e. - that can directly address 128Kbytes or more, can just pull everything in and advance the Z-machine program counter at will). That having been said, the Z-machine is inherently a 16-bit virtual processor. It's trivial to implement on an MC68000, cumbersome but not too ugly on 8-bit processors like the 6502 or Z-80, but about as far away from a 12-bit machine as one can get. I've thought a lot about a PDP-8 Z-machine implementation over the years. Sometime in the last year, I decided the first step would be to port some simplistic V3 game file dumpers to OS/8. If that proved to be too difficult to complete, then a full-on Z-machine would be nearly impossible. Fundamentally, I think one would have to scale up all the 16-bit Z-pointers to 24-bits internally to a theoretical PDP-8 Z-machine, and there's a lot of 16-bit math going on under the hood. There needs to be enough RAM available after loading whatever the OS needs and after loading the interpreter to hold 256 16-bit variables, the item table, and a few dozen K of the game file. On an 8-bit machine, there's room in 32Kbytes to hold the necessary overhead and still leave a few pages for the swappable part of the game file (I've done this on the 6502 and 1802, FWIW). It's true that it was more common to see Infocom games run on machines with _more_ than 32K (48K Apple, 48K TRS-80, 39K-free C-64...), but a V3 game will barely fit in 32K with overhead. The question, to me, them becomes, how much "waste" is there trying to juggle handfuls of 16-bit quantities in 24-bit spaces and is there enough room left over on a 32Kword machine to swap some non-volatile game pages in. One thing about OS/8 (and the PDP-8 architecture in general) is that the natural "page size" is 128 words, not 512 bytes as with so many "modern" machines. It'll be easier to find room for 3-12 PDP-8 pages than 3-5 pages of 512 bytes was on an 1802 running ElfOS. It's even crowded on a 32K PET with its 256-byte diskette sectors being the natural "page". I was planning on taking some baby-steps along the way - first, just import the game header, dump some stats and exit. Next, try a few simple opcodes - assign some variables, do some 16-bit math, then print the results. From there, it's possible to write some crafted Z-machine-abuse programs in Inform to stress-test the Z-machine - this is an important step in writing a new interpreter from scratch, since it reveals any faulty design assumptions. Once the opcodes are verified, it's reasonable tackle programs that are larger than free memory and test out the virtual-memory code. After all that, it's time to load Zork I and watch it play. It's been 20 years since I wrote any PDP-8 assembly code, but I could probably get back in the groove after a bit of effort. Fortunately, these days, with so many emulators running around, the development environment is much richer. Ultimately, though, the final test would be running on the real hardware, no matter how much emulation was used in development. Oh... one point I forgot to work in earlier - any simplistic Z-machine of this caliber would likely be limited to V3 games. The game volatile memory requirements for V5 is enough that it's not feasible to attempt to write an interpreter for an 8-bit machine with only 32Kbytes. There just isn't enough room to wedge in a 6K-8K interpreter, plus OS overhead _plus_ volatile game pages, let alone leave anything for non-volatile (i.e., swappable) game pages. I don't even know if 48K is enough. Have a look through the old game catalogs as to what games were supported on what platforms, and I think 64K is about the practical minimum for a V5 game. So I still think it's possible to write a V3 Z-machine for a 32Kword PDP-8, but my ideas have yet to escape as far as paper along any path of demonstrating it. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 2-Sep-2008 at 05:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -67.0 F (-55.0 C) Windchill -106.8 F (-77.1 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 14.4 kts Grid 35 Barometer 680.8 mb (10598 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Sep 2 01:35:51 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2008 23:35:51 -0700 Subject: infocom on other systems In-Reply-To: <200809020234.m822YxnB026040@mail.rickmurphy.net> References: <200809020234.m822YxnB026040@mail.rickmurphy.net> Message-ID: <48BCDEC7.6090204@brouhaha.com> Rick Murphy wrote: > Getting something as simple as Adventure fit onto the PDP-8 was a lot > more work than I'd like to admit. Anything more complex is out of the > question. The early Infocom games ran fine on computers with 32K*8 RAM, so 32K*12 should work fine. With more aggressive paging and a suitable disk, even the larger games should work. The official interpreters never page the impure data, but there's no reason an interpreter can't do that. Eric From vze323vd at verizon.net Mon Sep 1 04:02:27 2008 From: vze323vd at verizon.net (Greg Manuel (V)) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2008 05:02:27 -0400 Subject: Wanted: System V Release 4 (Intel) OS In-Reply-To: <45991BCB-0A1F-459D-B384-1DC6ACB8F4F3@gmail.com> Message-ID: > > Hi, > > I've been looking for a set of floppies or better yet, a 150MB QIC > tape for SVR4 for the 486 platform. Not having much luck to date, > which surprises me. I would have thought there would be plenty of > these laying around. > > I need one with SCSI drivers, and I also need the development system. > Willing to pay a reasonable amount. > > Thanks, > Tom > Hi Tom, I'll have to check this week, but I believe I have a set for UnixWare 1.1 from Novell. If you are not familiar with it, it is basically System V Version 4.2 with an IPX protocol added IIRC. Let me know if this will work for you. Greg Manuel http://www.gmconsulting.net "People are more violently opposed to fur than leather because it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs." - Unknown From axelsson at acc.umu.se Mon Sep 1 06:08:15 2008 From: axelsson at acc.umu.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Axelsson?=) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2008 13:08:15 +0200 Subject: Vacuum-tube speed In-Reply-To: <48B8E83D.1010801@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <152181.58959.qm@web50504.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <48AE31FB.6000905@jetnet.ab.ca> <48AE527F.9F95BA5C@cs.ubc.ca> <48AE5F30.B5A6C610@cs.ubc.ca> <48B8460E.1EB9D505@cs.ubc.ca> <200808291812.OAA26407@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <48B8E83D.1010801@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <48BBCD1F.4000504@acc.umu.se> bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > der Mouse wrote: >> That brings up something I've occasionally wondered about: how fast do >> electrons move in a vacuum tube? (I'm talking about the free-flight >> path between cathode and plate.) In particular, what's the time delay >> between emission from the cathode and reception by the plate? I >> imagine it depends on the plate voltage; does that make enough of a >> difference to care about? I don't remember enough of the constants to >> figure out what sort of acceleration a gradient of, say, 200 V/cm >> imparts to a free electron.... >> > I think you need study a broken tube to find the distance > from the cathode first. The final speed of an accelerated electron only depends on voltage, not the distance. A quick calculation gives the final speed close to 2% of the speed of light at 200 V acceleration. That means it travels 10 cm in aproximately 30 ns. (not counting relativistic effects and putting mean speed to 1% of c) In all practical cases the real distance is much smaller than that, tubes usually isn't so big, at least not in a digital circuit. The x-ray tube I have is 50 cm, but that is a totally different story. :-) /G?ran From pitlog at gmail.com Mon Sep 1 08:05:37 2008 From: pitlog at gmail.com (The Pitlog) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 09:05:37 -0400 Subject: Wanted: System V Release 4 (Intel) OS Message-ID: <205ABDD7-D0B3-4D68-8D92-5D525653A280@gmail.com> Greg, I've never used UnixWare, but if it is essentially SVR4.2 with some additions and comes with a development system, I'm happy to give it a try. Do you remember if it was on floppy or tape? Thanks very much for offering. Feel free to contact me off list to work out the details. Cheers, Tom -------------- Greg said --------------- Hi Tom, I'll have to check this week, but I believe I have a set for UnixWare 1.1 from Novell. If you are not familiar with it, it is basically System V Version 4.2 with an IPX protocol added IIRC. Let me know if this will work for you. From poghlan+cctech at vms.eurokom.ie Mon Sep 1 08:55:11 2008 From: poghlan+cctech at vms.eurokom.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2008 14:55:11 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Uses for OpenVMS Message-ID: <01MZ1NRODAXULWEPRS@vms.eurokom.ie> >I've had a VAXstation 4000/60 in my cabinet for well over a year now (had to >renew the license a few days ago). It is running OpenVMS 7.3. > >I can not think of any use for it, other than learning about OpenVMS, but that >is made difficult when I don't know what to do with it... > >So what can be done with an OpenVMS setup these days? > All sorts of stuff. Here are a few varied examples: Most recently, I hacked together some bits of other peoples C code to take a .au sound file and generate a graph of its frequency spectrum in an XWindow. I put this together on an Alpha where my sound card is but I just tried it on a Vaxstation 3100 and it it worked fine there too, a bit slower though. I have the Hercules IBM mainframe emulator running under VMS on my Alphaserver 1000A. That should annoy the DECheads and IBMmers in equal measure :-) Hercules is a medium sized application targeting linux and windows. I can scan documements using a SCSI attached scanner on my VAX 4000/100A and a port of the SANE scanner software and view and archive pictures from a digital camera using an "interesting" method of attaching a compact flash card to my Alpha. Recent versions of VMS including 7.3 provide a unix like runtime environment which makes it possible to port many of the better written open source unix applications and tools. The windowing system is a port of X-Windows so even if you don't have a display attached to your VAX, you can run X-Windows code on your VAX and display it on a remote X server which could be on a PC or Mac for instance. Lots of X applications and games have been ported to VMS and there are ports and native versions of internet applications such as email and news clients and servers, web servers and even web browsers. Unfortunately, a lot of the more bloaded modern code would have problems building or running on a VAX. VAX hardware is out of production for some years now, having been replaced by Alpha and then Itanium processors and VAX systems tend to be limited in processing power, memory etc compared to their successors and to the expectations of more recent code. Also, some features which were later added to Alpha/VMS (such as kernel threads for example) were never backported to VAX/VMS. I like programming in the native VMS environment. I generally use C, Fortran and VAX assembly but lots of other languages are available under the hobbyist license. VMS System service routines and library functions are available equally from all languages and are in general very well designed and offer great flexibility. The downside is the learning curve can be a bit steep for someone who is not familiar with the VMS way of doing things, which can be quite different from other operating systems. There is lots of freeware for VMS at http://mvb.saic.com/ which may stimulate further ideas. Also, check out the comp.os.vms newsgroup where lots of VMS people hang out. Regards, Peter. From operator at ocoperations.com Mon Sep 1 11:42:40 2008 From: operator at ocoperations.com (Operator) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 10:42:40 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/40 for sale Message-ID: <000001c90c51$c1cef560$456ce020$@com> Ashley, Is the PDP 11/40 still for sale. Your internet post was back in February. Richard Van Leer From hpjimbondoris123 at dorisland.net Mon Sep 1 12:56:25 2008 From: hpjimbondoris123 at dorisland.net (hpjimbondoris123 at dorisland.net) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 11:56:25 -0600 Subject: HP64000 System, Books, Software available Message-ID: <000501c90c5c$0e5c14d0$0f00a8c0@pentium4> Steve can you ask the person you gave your 64000 to to contact me to see if he would be willing to help me with my 64000 project. jim From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Sep 1 20:26:22 2008 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 1 Sep 2008 21:26:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Free Linux and OpenOffice - even if your email address doesn't In-Reply-To: <48BC648F.4030206@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <48BC648F.4030206@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200809020132.VAA03699@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > So what is a example of a NON-BROKEN terminal I can use as a standard > DEC terminal? Well, if emulations count, I wrote a terminal emulator for X that does a pretty good "VT-100", though it has some things that I think are post-VT-100. I don't know whether Minux does X, but, even if not, it might not be too hard to extract the emulator code. ftp.rodents-montreal.org:/mouse/X/mterm.src/ for them as wants. If you want to extract the X3.64-plus-DEC-extensions ("VT-100") emulator, you mostly want mterm-dec-ansi.c. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Sep 2 01:37:42 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2008 23:37:42 -0700 Subject: OT: Needed information since the list is slow In-Reply-To: <20080901212905.G952@shell.lmi.net> References: <200809020234.m822YxnB026040@mail.rickmurphy.net> <48BCBFDF.1080408@jetnet.ab.ca> <20080901212905.G952@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <48BCDF36.402@brouhaha.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > Recent detailed analysis has shown that the aluminum foil hat operates as > an antenna. I thought everyone knew that. Why else would the CIA have gone to so much work to spread rumors that foil hats block their mind control satellites? Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Sep 2 01:45:00 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2008 23:45:00 -0700 Subject: infocom on other systems In-Reply-To: <20080902061956.GA28439@usap.gov> References: <200809020234.m822YxnB026040@mail.rickmurphy.net> <20080902061956.GA28439@usap.gov> Message-ID: <48BCE0EC.3020704@brouhaha.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > Fundamentally, I think one would have to scale up all the 16-bit Z-pointers > to 24-bits internally to a theoretical PDP-8 Z-machine, and there's a lot > of 16-bit math going on under the hood. That sounds like the really hard way to write an interpreter for the PDP-8. It would be much easier if you just pretend it's an 8-bit machine, and do 8-bit arithmetic, and 16-bit double precision, just as was done in the 6502 interpreter. A fairly naive implementation should suffice for most of the early V1-3 games. Once those are running, add swapping of impure data, and you'll be able to run larger games. Eric From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Sep 2 01:46:48 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2008 23:46:48 -0700 Subject: eBay: Vintage HP-2115A Computer and Power Supply Message-ID: <48BCE158.7010102@bitsavers.org> > Curious to see if anyone snags it. J.A.M. did. CHM received a prototype 2114A last week. The interesting news, along with a large set of paper tapes, is a set of blueprints for it, and an external box with nixies that can display A, B, and P. From schwepes at moog.netaxs.com Tue Sep 2 01:51:33 2008 From: schwepes at moog.netaxs.com (schwepes at moog.netaxs.com) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 02:51:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: Needed information since the list is slow In-Reply-To: <20080901212905.G952@shell.lmi.net> References: <200809020234.m822YxnB026040@mail.rickmurphy.net> <48BCBFDF.1080408@jetnet.ab.ca> <20080901212905.G952@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 1 Sep 2008, Fred Cisin wrote: > Recent detailed analysis has shown that the aluminum foil hat operates as > an antenna. You are supposed to attach a tail of wire that will reach the ground even when you are standing to your tin foil hat. Just after Ben Franklain did his thing with the kite, such a hat only in copper was a fashion accessory in France along with a metal umbrella with a similar tail for milady. bs > > > On Mon, 1 Sep 2008, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > > > *FOUND READING ON THE NET* > > > > This ultra modern aluminum foil hat will protect your pet from the brain > > scanning rays of the NSA, certain 'auction' websites, fbi.com, and CIA > > satellites that are monitoring their little subversive thoughts. You may > > not have considered this before, but your lead lined hat is worthless if > > your pet can give away your secrets to the very people most dangerous to > > you - your government! > > But we both know that the government's 'pet mind reading threat' pales > > in comparison to the unknown dangers of aliens reading your pet's > > brainwaves. The PFHT Special Edition [PFHTSE, pronounced Pfootsie], has > > a hydrocarbon-chain lining specially designed to filter the hydrogen > > band alien brain scans. This space age material may appear to the > > untrained eye to be just plain plastic shopping bag, but your pet will > > know the difference. All government and alien I/O is cut off. It's like > > a firewall for your pet's brain. > From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Sep 2 02:33:03 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 08:33:03 +0100 Subject: Getting OT - Re: Service manuals and classis computer Was: Free Linux and OpenOffice In-Reply-To: <200809011815566.SM03412@[63.69.23.239]> References: <200809011815566.SM03412@[63.69.23.239]> Message-ID: <48BCEC2F.9010200@gjcp.net> tonym wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Tony Duell ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk >> Sent 9/1/2008 5:04:06 PM >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Re: Free Linux and OpenOffice - even if your email address doesn't >> >> I never take delivery on a car until AFTER I have a copy of the FSM >> (Factory Service Manual). >> You have sense!. Although I suspect I'm one of the few people who >> actively uys serivce manuals for cars (and other devices) that I am very >> unlikely to ever own. Just for interest. >> >> > > I'm in agreement with you there. > > I like doing CERTAIN things on my own cars. Topic drift! I like a car discussion, I really do - but this isn't the place. Yes, I know I've provoked and participated in car discussions before, but Jay gets annoyed. /me waves the Roy's Tech Chat flag... Gordon From tonym at compusource.net Tue Sep 2 03:08:40 2008 From: tonym at compusource.net (tonym) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 08:08:40 GMT Subject: Wanted: System V Release 4 (Intel) OS Message-ID: <200809020408519.SM04672@[63.69.23.239]> >-----Original Message----- >From: The Pitlog pitlog at gmail.com >Sent 9/1/2008 9:05:37 AM >To: cctech at classiccmp.org >Subject: Wanted: System V Release 4 (Intel) OS > >Greg, > >I've never used UnixWare, but if it is essentially SVR4.2 with some >additions and comes with a development system, I'm happy to give it a >try. Do you remember if it was on floppy or tape? > >Thanks very much for offering. > >Feel free to contact me off list to work out the details. > >Cheers, >Tom > >-------------- Greg said --------------- >Hi Tom, > >I'll have to check this week, but I believe I have a set for UnixWare >1.1 >from Novell. If you are not familiar with it, it is basically System V >Version 4.2 with an IPX protocol added IIRC. Let me know if this will >work >for you. > > Hmmm....wasn't UnixWare on CD? We had fun with them, and called it Novix. I think they they used the name Univel at some point, didn't they? After first acquiring USL? I THINK I have a UnixWare 1.1 CD, but don't think I have a boot disk any more, and I'm not entirely sure if the CD itself is bootable, as this goes back to around 1995, doesn't it? Tony From alanp at snowmoose.com Tue Sep 2 03:12:05 2008 From: alanp at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 01:12:05 -0700 Subject: Sun Workshop 7.0 stuff available Message-ID: <48BCF555.8040309@snowmoose.com> My uncle, who develops compiler tools, insisted that, since I work for Sun, I take his 10-plus-year-old Sun h/w and s/w that has been sitting in his garage. Figuring that I might be able to find a better home for it, I agreed. I haven't gone through all of it yet. The most obvious thing in the boxes is media and documentation for Sun Workshop 7.0, C++ compiler 4.2 and Java Workshop. There is Solaris 2.5.1 and 2.6 media and documentation. I need to go through that to compare with what I already have. There is also a SparcStation 5, a 16" Sun monitor (the one with all of the display control buttons along the bottom), kbd, mouse, etc. However, I haven't had time to go through it and confirm that it works (though it should), what is in it as far as memory, disk, etc., and that it doesn't contain any of my uncle's business info. Once I do, I will probably sell it (for whatever you can get for a SS5 these days). If you have an interest in any of this stuff, let me know. I don't want it to get thrown out, but I don't really want it in my garage either. alan From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Sep 2 03:37:14 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon J. C. Pearce) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 09:37:14 +0100 Subject: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry Computer logic circuits? In-Reply-To: <001301c90c64$0231a280$0301a8c0@hal9000> References: <001301c90c64$0231a280$0301a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <1220344634.6713.1.camel@kusanagi> On Mon, 2008-09-01 at 11:53 -0700, Scanning wrote: > Tony is correct. I sell Tesla type ECC-83s to the audio tweaks. It is the > functional equivalent ( except better ) of a 12AX7 dual triode. It's not really an "audio tweak" valve, at least not in the UK. It's a bog standard entry-level dual triode used in the preamp stage of just about any guitar amp you care to look at ;-) The fact that audiophiles love them seems pretty funny. Us amp builders love them for their second-harmonicy crunch... Gordon From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Tue Sep 2 06:44:29 2008 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 04:44:29 -0700 Subject: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry Computer logic circuits? References: <001301c90c64$0231a280$0301a8c0@hal9000> <1220344634.6713.1.camel@kusanagi> Message-ID: <000f01c90cf1$42d9ee40$0301a8c0@hal9000> Gordon, If I had meant audiophiles I would have stated such. The "tweaks" are the ones that can hear the nuances in an amplifier that cannot be quantified because they don't exist. They describe an amplifier as if it were a bottle of wine... Somehow they are never willing to submit to a double-blind test to check their palette. Best regards, Steven ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon J. C. Pearce" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2008 1:37 AM Subject: Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry Computer logic circuits? > On Mon, 2008-09-01 at 11:53 -0700, Scanning wrote: > > Tony is correct. I sell Tesla type ECC-83s to the audio tweaks. It is the > > functional equivalent ( except better ) of a 12AX7 dual triode. > > It's not really an "audio tweak" valve, at least not in the UK. It's a > bog standard entry-level dual triode used in the preamp stage of just > about any guitar amp you care to look at ;-) > > The fact that audiophiles love them seems pretty funny. Us amp builders > love them for their second-harmonicy crunch... > > Gordon From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue Sep 2 09:56:05 2008 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 07:56:05 -0700 Subject: Sun Workshop 7.0 stuff available In-Reply-To: <48BCF555.8040309@snowmoose.com> References: <48BCF555.8040309@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <200809020756.05566.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Tuesday 02 September 2008, Alan Perry wrote: > My uncle, who develops compiler tools, insisted that, since I work > for Sun, I take his 10-plus-year-old Sun h/w and s/w that has been > sitting in his garage. Figuring that I might be able to find a > better home for it, I agreed. > > I haven't gone through all of it yet. The most obvious thing in > the boxes is media and documentation for Sun Workshop 7.0, C++ > compiler 4.2 and Java Workshop. > > There is Solaris 2.5.1 and 2.6 media and documentation. I need to > go through that to compare with what I already have. > > There is also a SparcStation 5, a 16" Sun monitor (the one with all > of the display control buttons along the bottom), kbd, mouse, etc. > However, I haven't had time to go through it and confirm that it > works (though it should), what is in it as far as memory, disk, > etc., and that it doesn't contain any of my uncle's business info. > Once I do, I will probably sell it (for whatever you can get for a > SS5 these days). > > If you have an interest in any of this stuff, let me know. I don't > want it to get thrown out, but I don't really want it in my garage > either. If no one on this list takes the Sun goodies, you might want to contact the "Suns at home" list: suns-at-home at net-kitchen.com Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA 94040 http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Tue Sep 2 09:46:23 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 14:46:23 +0000 Subject: infocom on other systems In-Reply-To: <48BCE0EC.3020704@brouhaha.com> References: <200809020234.m822YxnB026040@mail.rickmurphy.net> <20080902061956.GA28439@usap.gov> <48BCE0EC.3020704@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20080902144623.GB12917@usap.gov> On Mon, Sep 01, 2008 at 11:45:00PM -0700, Eric Smith wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > >Fundamentally, I think one would have to scale up all the 16-bit Z-pointers > >to 24-bits internally to a theoretical PDP-8 Z-machine, and there's a lot > >of 16-bit math going on under the hood. > > That sounds like the really hard way to write an interpreter for the > PDP-8. It would be much easier if you just pretend it's an 8-bit > machine, and do 8-bit arithmetic, and 16-bit double precision, just as > was done in the 6502 interpreter. I suppose there could be a code advantage in splitting things up like that, but I don't see much of a in-core storage advantage, unless you pack, for example, 3 variables in 4 machine words (in which case, the code could get fairly messy). > A fairly naive implementation should suffice for most of the early V1-3 > games. Once those are running, add swapping of impure data, and you'll > be able to run larger games. Sure... adding impure swap would make the larger games fit, at what might be a hefty performance penalty - but it should work. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 2-Sep-2008 at 14:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -54.4 F (-48.0 C) Windchill -93.5 F (-69.7 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 17.5 kts Grid 32 Barometer 680.5 mb (10609 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Tue Sep 2 09:54:45 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 14:54:45 +0000 Subject: infocom on other systems In-Reply-To: <48BCDEC7.6090204@brouhaha.com> References: <200809020234.m822YxnB026040@mail.rickmurphy.net> <48BCDEC7.6090204@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20080902145445.GC12917@usap.gov> On Mon, Sep 01, 2008 at 11:35:51PM -0700, Eric Smith wrote: > Rick Murphy wrote: > >Getting something as simple as Adventure fit onto the PDP-8 was a lot > >more work than I'd like to admit. Anything more complex is out of the > >question. > > The early Infocom games ran fine on computers with 32K*8 RAM... Did they? My first direct experiences with Infocom games were on the Apple II and C-64 (c. 1982-1983). I'd seen them once or twice before, but I only really got my hands onto them when I could run them at home. There weren't very many 32K Apple IIs - yes, they were sold, but the ones I saw were always expanded to 48K. The first C-64 interpreter didn't twiddle any of the memory banking, so it used the same memory space available to BASIC - 39K (it didn't even use the RAM block at $C000 - at one point, I loaded a PET font that I copied from a real PET ROM up there to get "cleaner" letters than the standard C-64 ROM font while I played). > ... so 32K*12 should work fine. I think it should fit as well. > With more aggressive paging and a suitable disk, even the larger games > should work. The official interpreters never page the impure data, but > there's no reason an interpreter can't do that. Yes... as you say, one _can_ page impure data. Given the slow performance of any of the 8-bit paged intepreters, I have to admit that I didn't think of that at first, but it would work, though slowly. On the slowest platform I know, a C-64 w/1541 disk, it used to take many seconds between commands just to page in the _pure_ data. The TRS-80 and Apple II had much faster diskette interfaces, so were more limited by the speed of the media and the speed of the stepper, unlike the 1541 (which had those limitations as well, but the serial interface was the real bottleneck). I don't have any performance data, but I don't remember my RL01 being particularly slow on my PDP-8/a - certainly much faster than floppies. Thanks for pointing out what should have been an obvious path around memory limitations. It's given me a bit more to think about. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 2-Sep-2008 at 14:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -54.4 F (-48.0 C) Windchill -93.5 F (-69.7 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 17.5 kts Grid 32 Barometer 680.5 mb (10609 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 2 10:19:36 2008 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 08:19:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ENIAC vs. ENIAC-on-a-Chip IC implementation Message-ID: <757783.50241.qm@web50510.mail.re2.yahoo.com> schwepes at moog.netaxs.com wrote: > Why be surprised? The second group had a far higher state > of the art. > > > From the excellent book, "The First Computers - History and > > Architectures," an interesting comparison: I'm not at all "surprised" which is why I used the word "interesting." The comparison given in the book is a great illustration of just how far the technology has come. And, actually, it has come even quite a bit further since the ENIAC-on-a-Chip project was completed in 1997. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Sep 2 10:41:55 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 09:41:55 -0600 Subject: ENIAC vs. ENIAC-on-a-Chip IC implementation In-Reply-To: <757783.50241.qm@web50510.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <757783.50241.qm@web50510.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48BD5EC3.804@jetnet.ab.ca> William Blair wrote: > I'm not at all "surprised" which is why I used the word "interesting." The comparison given in the book is a great illustration of just how far the technology has come. And, actually, it has come even quite a bit further since the ENIAC-on-a-Chip project was completed in 1997. > > I would say less ... In 1949 you get hands on the real machine. I suspect about 1/2 dozen chips where made, that very few people can see other than for bragging about. > > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Sep 2 10:47:23 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 09:47:23 -0600 Subject: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry Computer logic circuits? In-Reply-To: <1220344634.6713.1.camel@kusanagi> References: <001301c90c64$0231a280$0301a8c0@hal9000> <1220344634.6713.1.camel@kusanagi> Message-ID: <48BD600B.2040109@jetnet.ab.ca> Gordon J. C. Pearce wrote: > any guitar amp you care to look at ;-) > > The fact that audiophiles love them seems pretty funny. That is not me ... I hate them for see above err below. > Us amp builders > love them for their second-harmonicy crunch... > > Still with out the guitar amp people, I don't think any kind of valves would be around for people like myself to play music through. > Gordon > PS: I want quality parts ... not 1 cent Jap parts or $100 snake oil 'audiophile' components. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Sep 2 10:56:48 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 11:56:48 -0400 Subject: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry Computer logic circuits? In-Reply-To: <48BD600B.2040109@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <001301c90c64$0231a280$0301a8c0@hal9000> <1220344634.6713.1.camel@kusanagi> <48BD600B.2040109@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <7617948C-18A0-4D9B-BFE3-A815C4932641@neurotica.com> On Sep 2, 2008, at 11:47 AM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >> Us amp builders >> love them for their second-harmonicy crunch... >> > Still with out the guitar amp people, I don't think any kind of valves > would be around for people like myself to play music through. Did all the tubes disappear or something? LOTS AND LOTS of tubes were made during their heyday. I know a few people who have hundreds, and in one case thousands of tubes, and I've got a few dozen myself. Don't be paranoid, Ben. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pontus at update.uu.se Tue Sep 2 11:04:13 2008 From: pontus at update.uu.se (Pontus) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 18:04:13 +0200 Subject: More stuff to go... In-Reply-To: <200809011821.38410.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200809011821.38410.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <48BD63FD.1060700@update.uu.se> > Three SGI Indigo 2's. These I will not ship, as they're too big/heavy > to easily ship. One is an Impact (purple), one an Impact 10000 > (purple) and one EXtreme (teal). $10 each > Oh man! Indigos for 10 bucks! I wished I lived closer :) (I'm in sweden). I guess you should post in the nekochan forums if you don't get rid of the machines. I could do it for you if you like. Regards, Pontus. From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Tue Sep 2 11:12:00 2008 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 12:12:00 -0400 Subject: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry Computer logic circuits? References: <001301c90c64$0231a280$0301a8c0@hal9000> <1220344634.6713.1.camel@kusanagi> <48BD600B.2040109@jetnet.ab.ca> <7617948C-18A0-4D9B-BFE3-A815C4932641@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <18621.26064.548950.586806@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Dave" == Dave McGuire writes: Dave> On Sep 2, 2008, at 11:47 AM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >>> Us amp builders love them for their second-harmonicy crunch... >>> >> Still with out the guitar amp people, I don't think any kind of >> valves would be around for people like myself to play music >> through. Dave> Did all the tubes disappear or something? LOTS AND LOTS of Dave> tubes were made during their heyday. I know a few people who Dave> have hundreds, and in one case thousands of tubes, and I've got Dave> a few dozen myself. Don't be paranoid, Ben. ;) Last time I was at a hamfest (admittedly some years ago) tubes were still being sold by lots of people. Ads show up in ham radio magazines, too. So avoid audio-nut circles and look to hams, then tubes shouldn't eba problem. Then again, if all else fails, make your own: http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2008/01/make_your_own_vaccum_tube.html paul From gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at Tue Sep 2 11:18:04 2008 From: gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at (DI Gerhard Kreuzer) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 18:18:04 +0200 Subject: ENIAC vs. ENIAC-on-a-Chip IC implementation Message-ID: <20080902181804.i1lo3pamo044okgc@webmail.izone.at> Hi, I think about a FPGA-version of ENIAC, so ist relativly easy to get the hands on a replica. Is there goood documentation available? Is the ENIAC on a chip project online, that meens, all the docs? Maybe sombody is interested too With best regards Gerhard From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Sep 2 11:27:27 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 10:27:27 -0600 Subject: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry Computer logic circuits? In-Reply-To: <7617948C-18A0-4D9B-BFE3-A815C4932641@neurotica.com> References: <001301c90c64$0231a280$0301a8c0@hal9000> <1220344634.6713.1.camel@kusanagi> <48BD600B.2040109@jetnet.ab.ca> <7617948C-18A0-4D9B-BFE3-A815C4932641@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <48BD696F.5090809@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > > Did all the tubes disappear or something? LOTS AND LOTS of tubes > were made during their heyday. I know a few people who have hundreds, > and in one case thousands of tubes, and I've got a few dozen myself. > Don't be paranoid, Ben. ;) Good ... send me a DOZEN AD1's to play with :) > > -Dave I know there are a lots of TV & Radio tubes around. Just find a good IF transformer now days, let alone a Non-talk AM radio channel. From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 2 11:33:07 2008 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 09:33:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry Computer logic circuits? In-Reply-To: <200809021600.m82G0Mjc081240@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <747156.61413.qm@web50504.mail.re2.yahoo.com> steven.alan.canning at verizon.net: > If I had meant audiophiles I would have stated such. The "tweaks" > are the ones that can hear the nuances in an amplifier that cannot > be quantified because they don't exist. They describe an amplifier > as if it were a bottle of wine... Somehow they are never willing to > submit to a double-blind test to check their palette. Although this is way off-topic, I think that a lot of the "tube sound" claims may have to do with audio distortion. Here are some audio tests of a type of tube amp I built: http://www.ibiblio.org/tkan/audio/millett.html I saw these tests before building the amp. And since I have a significant hearing loss in both ears, I built the amp just to play with tubes, not for any audiophile reasons. If the people who can actually hear any difference claim to like tube amps over solid-state even if that difference is actually due to audio distortion, more power to them. On the topic of imagining audio differences that aren't actually there, I read the article referenced here way back in 1983. I was not surprised by the results: http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm#reviewdares From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Sep 2 11:33:22 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 12:33:22 -0400 Subject: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry Computer logic circuits? In-Reply-To: <48BD696F.5090809@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <001301c90c64$0231a280$0301a8c0@hal9000> <1220344634.6713.1.camel@kusanagi> <48BD600B.2040109@jetnet.ab.ca> <7617948C-18A0-4D9B-BFE3-A815C4932641@neurotica.com> <48BD696F.5090809@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Sep 2, 2008, at 12:27 PM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >> Did all the tubes disappear or something? LOTS AND LOTS of >> tubes were made during their heyday. I know a few people who have >> hundreds, and in one case thousands of tubes, and I've got a few >> dozen myself. Don't be paranoid, Ben. ;) > Good ... send me a DOZEN AD1's to play with :) Well yeah, if you want to work with the super-rare ones.. ;) > I know there are a lots of TV & Radio tubes around. Just find a > good IF transformer > now days, let alone a Non-talk AM radio channel. IF transformers are easy to wind! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Sep 2 11:35:32 2008 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 16:35:32 +0000 (GMT) Subject: installing more memory Message-ID: <351194.95956.qm@web23407.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi, i have installed extra RAMinto my Amiga 600 before (in the trapdoor) which plugs in straight. However, plugging the extra RAM i just got for my laptop (Dell C610) requires it to be inserted into the slot at 45 degrees and then moued parallel (flat) on the pcb until you hear a click! (thats what it states in the C610 manual) Who's idea was that and are there any pitfalls i should be aware of? (other than damaging the connectors) - Andrew B (via mobile) From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Tue Sep 2 11:38:00 2008 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 09:38:00 -0700 Subject: Wanted: System V Release 4 (Intel) OS In-Reply-To: <200809020408519.SM04672@63.69.23.239> References: <200809020408519.SM04672@63.69.23.239> Message-ID: > Hmmm....wasn't UnixWare on CD? We had fun with them, and called it Novix. I think they they used > the name Univel at some point, didn't they? After first acquiring USL? I've got Univel UnixWare 1.0 floppies with somewhere in my collection. Unfortunately they were not readable since they had been stored badly before I got them. (They were covered with mildew and what looked like spilled soda.) So no floppy images, unfortunately. :( I think we've got a 1999 era UnixWare 7 CD that we got from SCO somewhere around here. That was back before Caldera became the SCO's evil twin and tried to blackmail the world... Eric From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Sep 2 11:49:09 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 12:49:09 -0400 Subject: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry Computer logic circuits? In-Reply-To: References: <001301c90c64$0231a280$0301a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: > Notice that in the bad old days part numbers could be decifered to tell > you what the hell they actually did? You do not use tubes much, do you? Most of the old numbering systems had so many special cases, mistakes in registration, and other weirdness that the systems basically could not be trusted. Everyone was to blame - the American RMA, the various British systems (the worst offenders), the Continental system, the German systems, the Japanese systems... The best system turned out to be the 5500 series non-system in use from roughly 1950 to 1970. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Sep 2 11:53:01 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 12:53:01 -0400 Subject: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry Computer logic circuits? In-Reply-To: <7617948C-18A0-4D9B-BFE3-A815C4932641@neurotica.com> References: <001301c90c64$0231a280$0301a8c0@hal9000> <1220344634.6713.1.camel@kusanagi> <48BD600B.2040109@jetnet.ab.ca> <7617948C-18A0-4D9B-BFE3-A815C4932641@neurotica.com> Message-ID: > Did all the tubes disappear or something? LOTS AND LOTS of tubes were > made during their heyday. I know a few people who have hundreds, and in one > case thousands of tubes, and I've got a few dozen myself. Don't be > paranoid, Ben. ;) I am down to about 10,000. At peak, I had roughly 40,000. And I am small potatoes... Some tubes did disappear. I pity the man that wants to get a power supply for an IBM 709 up and running. C16Js, in used UNTESTED condition, go for a few hundred bucks. If you can find them. Same with anyone that gets a computer using 6386 dual triodes. -- Will From legalize at xmission.com Tue Sep 2 12:00:17 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 11:00:17 -0600 Subject: govliq: 12 HP 7907A disk drives (Ogden, UT) In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 01 Sep 2008 10:34:16 -0600. <48BC1988.3020400@Rikers.org> Message-ID: In article <48BC1988.3020400 at Rikers.org>, Tim Riker writes: > Richard wrote: > > LOT (20) DISK DRIVES TO INCLUDE: (12) HP 7907A DISK DRIVE UNIT LR28576 > > (1) MEGA DRIVE ENTERPRISE 8 FIXED/ REMOVABLE DISK DRIVE UNIT (7) > > PANASONIC KXL-RW21A PORTABLE CD-R/ RW DRIVE FOR USB INTERFACE 6X > > WRITE/ 4X REWRITE SPEED=20 > > To=3DUSD> > >=20 > > As before, if anyone wants these, I'm willing to pick them up from > > govliq and help you with packing and shipping. > > I'm considering it. Will these units run without the removable cartridge=20 > in them? I expect there are none included. You can find out by previewing the material. You'll have to call up to Hill AFB and make an appointment to preview. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Sep 2 12:01:38 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 13:01:38 -0400 Subject: MY REPLY - Re: HandyMan for Kaypro In-Reply-To: <200808312249754.SM06084@[63.69.23.239]> References: <200808312249754.SM06084@[63.69.23.239]> Message-ID: <200809021301.42285.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 31 August 2008 22:49, tonym wrote: (Snip) > >If it's of interest, I have some pretty complete service data on Kaypro > > 8-bit stuff, including the schematics of multiple versions of the power > > supplies used in them, though I'm not sure it was necessarily all of > > them. I remember California DC (?), Astec, and I'm not recalling the > > others offhand, but they're around someplace. _This_ stuff I don't want > > to sell, but I might be persuaded to make some photocopies. :-) > > Thanks for the offer. For the most part, I think MOST necessary parts of > the Kaypro service manuals are out there - 1484-d, -e, and -f versions. > Can;t hurt to check against what you have, though. I recall getting some back when somebody (Micro-Cornucopia?) was selling them, and they didn't happen to include the power supplies. Though in much of what I encountered resoldering at the connector usualy took care of the problem. I remember sending a couple of sets of them out to people, like Jack Brown at FOG, when they were still a going concern. > On the EPROM, never heard of THAT one, but I can hunt around in my > Pro-Files magazines and see if any ads pop-up, and any info. I HAVE found > ads for the HandyMan, but that's about all! > > If you have the ability, dump the EPROM, and I can take a peek. It would take some doing, I think, particularly since I don't know what chip it is without peeling back the label. > Is it a 24-pin, or 28-pin EPROM? It's a 28-pin part. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Sep 2 12:08:17 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 11:08:17 -0600 Subject: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry Computer logic circuits? In-Reply-To: References: <001301c90c64$0231a280$0301a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <48BD7301.3000000@jetnet.ab.ca> William Donzelli wrote: > The best system turned out to be the 5500 series non-system in use > from roughly 1950 to 1970. > > And remember -- if you make your own tubes -- you can add any # you want. :) > -- > Will > From sellam at vintagetech.com Tue Sep 2 12:06:51 2008 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 10:06:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Epson QX10? Message-ID: Check out this old Zebra video from the 1980s: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Y4TQehFNnQ The on-topicness starts at about the 0:30 mark. Those are some killer looking terminals (can anyone identify them?), but the one that the one dude is using is, I'm pretty sure, an Epson QX-10. This is from the 1983-84 timeframe. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Sep 2 12:17:09 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 11:17:09 -0600 Subject: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry Computer logic circuits? In-Reply-To: References: <001301c90c64$0231a280$0301a8c0@hal9000> <1220344634.6713.1.camel@kusanagi> <48BD600B.2040109@jetnet.ab.ca> <7617948C-18A0-4D9B-BFE3-A815C4932641@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <48BD7515.4040808@jetnet.ab.ca> William Donzelli wrote: > I am down to about 10,000. At peak, I had roughly 40,000. > > How did you get so-many? > And I am small potatoes... > > From Idaho too? :) > Some tubes did disappear. I pity the man that wants to get a power > supply for an IBM 709 up and running. C16Js, in used UNTESTED > condition, go for a few hundred bucks. If you can find them. > > Same with anyone that gets a computer using 6386 dual triodes. > > That would be nice to see ... are there any valve computers up and running still? > -- > Will > > From legalize at xmission.com Tue Sep 2 12:18:48 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 11:18:48 -0600 Subject: CDC/VAX tapes and drives In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 30 Aug 2008 17:38:18 -0700. Message-ID: In article , "Erik S. Klein" writes: > Got this in the mail but the > tape systems aren't of interest to me: > > --- Found your name on a website related to antique computers and > components. are some vintage items at our company that we will be > discarding when we move to a new location so I am contacting you to see > if you have any interest. We have reels of tapes and tape drives that > can read tapes written on VAX and CDC systems. We also have cabinets > for hanging reels of tapes. There is other stuff around too like old PC > systems and software that we are just beginning to go through. So let > me know what you are interested in. Also if you are not interested in > the tapes or tape drives do you know anyone who is? I'd rather give > them to someone who wants them then to send them to the recycler. --- > > If you are interested please drop me a line and I'll forward the > contact info. Where is the stuff located? Please remember that there are people subscribed to this list all across the globe and announcements of such large, heavy items are generally of no use to us unless we know how much travelling/shipping is going to be required. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Tue Sep 2 12:18:56 2008 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 19:18:56 +0200 Subject: infocom on other systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: "Zane H. Healy" Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2008 7:11 AM Subject: Re: infocom on other systems > Remember there is a z-machine interpreter written by Johnny Billquist that > runs on RSX, it was ported by Megan Gentry to run on RT-11. I believe the > latest updates still run on RT-11, though IIRC a couple years back a > couple of us had to do some testing and work with Johnny to keep it > working on RT-11 due to some changes he'd made. > > I would *REALLY* love to see one of the original Infocom copies for the > PDP-11. > > Zane Yup, I also tested ZEMU. The version that Billy has up for download works with RT-11. After you boot RT-11, first run VBGEXE for some memory, then start ZEMU. ZEMU asks for a "play file" (IIRC). I played ZORK (found on the internet) in SIMH PDP-11. But may I say *ME TOO*!!! I'd love to get a ZORK copy running straight on the PDP-11. It exists on RX0[1|2] (?) floppy, you can even see that on on Amazon. But I never read of a person who actually has it! I'd swap a dozen RX floppies for one floppy with the PDP-11 version of ZORK on it! - Henk, PA8PDP From IanK at vulcan.com Tue Sep 2 12:35:14 2008 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 10:35:14 -0700 Subject: Insulator/shielding in DEC power supply Message-ID: I'm reconditioning some H7100A power supply units in a VAX-11/785, and I've come across something I haven't seen before. I'm hoping one of you has. :) This particular PSU was labeled 'Memory Power Supply' and has additional regulator boards for a 15v rail. Slipped between those boards were two sheets of what looked like heavy-duty paper. However, one had delaminated, demonstrating that it is a sheet of thin copper sandwiched between two paper-like layers. That suggests to me that this was intended more for EMI shielding than electrical isolation. I did not see these sheets in another PSU that also had a supplemental regulator. Does this sound familiar to anyone? TIA - Ian UNIX is user friendly. It's just selective about who its friends are. Ian S. King, Vintage Systems Engineer Vulcan, Inc. http://www.pdpplanet.org From ats at offog.org Tue Sep 2 12:36:04 2008 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 18:36:04 +0100 Subject: installing more memory In-Reply-To: <351194.95956.qm@web23407.mail.ird.yahoo.com> (Andrew Burton's message of "Tue\, 2 Sep 2008 16\:35\:32 +0000 \(GMT\)") References: <351194.95956.qm@web23407.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Andrew Burton writes: > Who's idea was that and are there any pitfalls i should be aware of? Make sure it's seated properly -- with some designs of socket, it's possible for the clips to click into place, but the RAM stick not actually be level in the socket. Laptop RAM sockets tend to be pretty foolproof, though. All the A1200 trapdoor RAM/accelerator cards I've got have SIMM slots of the type you describe, so the approach has been around a while. I was interested to find a flash SIMM in the Javastation I acquired the other day too; I hadn't seen it used for anything but DRAM before... -- Adam Sampson From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Sep 2 12:37:39 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 18:37:39 +0100 Subject: installing more memory In-Reply-To: <351194.95956.qm@web23407.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Andrew Burton wrote: > Hi, i have installed extra RAMinto my Amiga 600 before (in the > trapdoor) which plugs in straight. However, plugging the extra RAM i > just got for my laptop (Dell C610) requires it to be inserted into > the slot at 45 degrees and then moued parallel (flat) on the pcb > until you hear a click! (thats what it states in the C610 manual) > Who's idea was that and are there any pitfalls i should be aware > of? (other than damaging the connectors) - Andrew B (via mobile) If this is 168-pin SDRAM, then it's easy to install. Simply put it so that the gold teeth fit into the connector and then push back until it clicks and is held in place. I think I have an Adaptec adapter of some kind that uses exactly those sorts of sockets to reduce it's profile. (With normal, straight up sockets, the memory would foul with a card in the next slot). Actually, I think the PICMG Intel/Alpha systems use those sockets too. Going further back, the 72-pin SIMMs were also like that iirc. Antonio From dbwood at kc.rr.com Tue Sep 2 12:42:25 2008 From: dbwood at kc.rr.com (Douglas Wood) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 12:42:25 -0500 Subject: Epson QX10? References: Message-ID: <43CB8B24386B4BBFAA422AE9FE0034AD@epicis> It looks like all of the base units are QX-10s, but the monitors with the black area on the right side (floppies??) I don't recognize. The monitors that I have look like the one you mention. As an aside, I always found it amusing that my QX-10s had 640x480 2-color graphics displays while IBM was calling their CGA 320x200 2-color displays as "hi-res"! Douglas Wood dbwood at kc.rr.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sellam Ismail" To: "Classic Computers Mailing List" Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2008 12:06 PM Subject: Epson QX10? > > Check out this old Zebra video from the 1980s: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Y4TQehFNnQ > > The on-topicness starts at about the 0:30 mark. > > Those are some killer looking terminals (can anyone identify them?), but > the one that the one dude is using is, I'm pretty sure, an Epson QX-10. > > This is from the 1983-84 timeframe. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer > Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage > mputers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > > __________ NOD32 3407 (20080902) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > > From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Sep 2 12:43:16 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 18:43:16 +0100 Subject: installing more memory In-Reply-To: <351194.95956.qm@web23407.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <351194.95956.qm@web23407.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48BD7B34.6040300@gjcp.net> Andrew Burton wrote: > Hi, i have installed extra RAMinto my Amiga 600 before (in the trapdoor) which plugs in straight. However, plugging the extra RAM i just got for my laptop (Dell C610) requires it to be inserted into the slot at 45 degrees and then moued parallel (flat) on the pcb until you hear a click! (thats what it states in the C610 manual) Who's idea was that and are there any pitfalls i should be aware of? (other than damaging the connectors) - Andrew B (via mobile) > That's just the way that SIMM/DIMM connectors work. If you look at the edge of the slot you'll see that there are two fingers, one at either side, with a sort of a tapered hook at the end. This latches the memory down flat. It's mechanically very strong, and rarely presents a problem unless you damage it in some way (forcing memory in the wrong way, pouring liquids into it, sandblasting it, drilling holes in it, etc). Gordon From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Sep 2 12:44:26 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 13:44:26 -0400 Subject: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry Computer logic circuits? In-Reply-To: <48BD7515.4040808@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <001301c90c64$0231a280$0301a8c0@hal9000> <1220344634.6713.1.camel@kusanagi> <48BD600B.2040109@jetnet.ab.ca> <7617948C-18A0-4D9B-BFE3-A815C4932641@neurotica.com> <48BD7515.4040808@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > How did you get so-many? I bought them. > That would be nice to see ... are there any valve computers > up and running still? In Britain and Germany, at least. I know of none in North America. -- Will From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Sep 2 12:58:26 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 11:58:26 -0600 Subject: installing more memory In-Reply-To: <48BD7B34.6040300@gjcp.net> References: <351194.95956.qm@web23407.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <48BD7B34.6040300@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <48BD7EC2.7050707@jetnet.ab.ca> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > It's mechanically very strong, and rarely presents a problem unless > you damage it in some way (forcing memory in the wrong way, pouring > liquids into it, sandblasting it, drilling holes in it, etc). > And just how would you know? > Gordon > From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Tue Sep 2 13:00:00 2008 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 14:00:00 -0400 Subject: Insulator/shielding in DEC power supply References: Message-ID: <18621.32544.368337.69940@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Ian" == Ian King writes: Ian> I'm reconditioning some H7100A power supply units in a Ian> VAX-11/785, and I've come across something I haven't seen Ian> before. I'm hoping one of you has. :) This particular PSU was Ian> labeled 'Memory Power Supply' and has additional regulator Ian> boards for a 15v rail. Slipped between those boards were two Ian> sheets of what looked like heavy-duty paper. However, one had Ian> delaminated, demonstrating that it is a sheet of thin copper Ian> sandwiched between two paper-like layers. That suggests to me Ian> that this was intended more for EMI shielding than electrical Ian> isolation. I did not see these sheets in another PSU that also Ian> had a supplemental regulator. It may be a design change made to handle the FCC emissions regulations. I'd say both paper and copper are important; the copper for EMI, the paper to avoid shorting out the boards. paul From mc at media.mit.edu Tue Sep 2 13:01:46 2008 From: mc at media.mit.edu (Tim McNerney) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 14:01:46 -0400 Subject: More stuff to go... In-Reply-To: <200809021700.m82H0LNf082791@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200809021700.m82H0LNf082791@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <48BD7F8A.9020504@media.mit.edu> > Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 18:04:13 +0200 > From: Pontus > Subject: Re: More stuff to go... > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > >> Three SGI Indigo 2's. These I will not ship, as they're too big/heavy >> to easily ship. One is an Impact (purple), one an Impact 10000 >> (purple) and one EXtreme (teal). $10 each >> > Oh man! Indigos for 10 bucks! I wished I lived closer :) (I'm in > sweden). I guess you should post in the nekochan forums if you don't get > rid of the machines. I could do it for you if you like. > > Regards, > Pontus. > As we say around here, "where there's a will, there's a way"... If you really want one of these SGI boxes, I recommend that you contact the seller (he is not me), and ask him if he is willing to drop off the computer at a nearby UPS Store. This chain is in the business of packaging items for shipping. They are not cheap, but it might solve your problem. However, UPS, FedEx, DHL, etc. are primarily in the business of shipping items that can be lifted by a single person. If the computer weighs more than about 100 lbs, then you would need to contact a freight expediting service or a moving company and make arrangements for palletizing, consolidation and surface transport. Good luck. --Tim From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Sep 2 13:29:49 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 19:29:49 +0100 Subject: installing more memory In-Reply-To: <48BD7EC2.7050707@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <920AABE9521A429EAD8FC049D030B108@FLEXPC> bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >> >> It's mechanically very strong, and rarely presents a problem unless >> you damage it in some way (forcing memory in the wrong way, pouring >> liquids into it, sandblasting it, drilling holes in it, etc). >> > And just how would you know? Some years ago a friend turned up asking for help. He'd purchased a motherboard that needed 168-pin SDRAM (that's two little slots in the stick and two corresponding ridges in the connector to give you a hint). He' also purchased two sticks of 184-pin DDR. "I've managed to fit one but it doesn't work". FWIW the memory had survived, the socket had come off slightly worse. With the amount of force he'd used, he'd managed to not only to damage the ridges in the connector but also remove at least one half of one of the gold contacts. But other than that I've found DIMM sockets to be very reliable. I have one motherboard that I've used to test SDRAM before selling it on, and despite having had a large number of insertions and removals (all in the same socket too ...) it's still going strong. Antonio From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Sep 2 13:31:45 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 11:31:45 -0700 Subject: infocom on other systems In-Reply-To: <20080902144623.GB12917@usap.gov> References: <200809020234.m822YxnB026040@mail.rickmurphy.net> <20080902061956.GA28439@usap.gov> <48BCE0EC.3020704@brouhaha.com> <20080902144623.GB12917@usap.gov> Message-ID: <48BD8691.3010101@brouhaha.com> I wrote: >> That sounds like the really hard way to write an interpreter for the >> PDP-8. It would be much easier if you just pretend it's an 8-bit >> machine, and do 8-bit arithmetic, and 16-bit double precision, just as >> was done in the 6502 interpreter. Ethan Dicks wrote: > I suppose there could be a code advantage in splitting things up like > that, but I don't see much of a in-core storage advantage, unless you > pack, for example, 3 variables in 4 machine words (in which case, the > code could get fairly messy). Not just messy. More code, and it would take longer to write and debug. There's no point in making the task more complicated just to add some unnecessary optimization. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Sep 2 14:33:47 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 11:33:47 -0800 Subject: vac tubes / was Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry Computer logic circuits? References: <001301c90c64$0231a280$0301a8c0@hal9000> <1220344634.6713.1.camel@kusanagi> <48BD600B.2040109@jetnet.ab.ca> <7617948C-18A0-4D9B-BFE3-A815C4932641@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <48BD951A.86E514BE@cs.ubc.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > Did all the tubes disappear or something? LOTS AND LOTS of tubes > were made during their heyday. I know a few people who have > hundreds, and in one case thousands of tubes, and I've got a few > dozen myself. Don't be paranoid, Ben. ;) Just to put a number on it, in 1955 alone, 480,000,000 receiving tubes were produced (Electronics, Sep. 1956, Figures of the Month). I presume/guess that was U.S. production. At the radio museum we get boxes and boxes of what we call "TV-junk" tubes, a variety of types that were targetted for, or commonly used in, 50/60 era TVs, and which didn't get used much in home radios. The result, because these days there are far more people restoring radios and doing tube audio compared to restoring TVs, is that there are lots and lots of these tubes and a very low demand for them. It has occurred to me that if one were setting out to build a (small?) tube computer today for fun, to look into selecting the primary tube(s) from that class; the question being if one would do any better than just using duo-triodes, which are in higher demand. From Mark at Misty.com Tue Sep 2 13:45:33 2008 From: Mark at Misty.com (Mark G. Thomas) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 14:45:33 -0400 Subject: infocom on other systems In-Reply-To: <20080902061956.GA28439@usap.gov> References: <200809020234.m822YxnB026040@mail.rickmurphy.net> <20080902061956.GA28439@usap.gov> Message-ID: <20080902184533.GA31462@lucky.misty.com> Hi, On Tue, Sep 02, 2008 at 06:19:56AM +0000, Ethan Dicks wrote: .... > I completely appreciate the sentiment - that's why I helped out a couple > of years back on an 1802 Z-Machine. It was lots of fun and a great > thrill when it worked for the first time. If anyone on the list was > at VCFmw last year, I had an Elf-2000 and an Embedded Elf with me, > running a couple of games. Is the 1802 Z-machine code available anywhere? One of these days I'm going to get one of my Quest Super-ELF machines set up again, and also build my ELF-2000. > > >Recently someone ported my pet project, Frotz, > > >to the iPhone. > > Neat. Yay! http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewSoftware?id=287653015&mt=8 Mark -- Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com) voice: 215-591-3695 http://mail-cleaner.com/ From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Sep 2 13:49:20 2008 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 11:49:20 -0700 Subject: CDC/VAX tapes and drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, Erik, We would be interested in this. We can certainly use the tape racks and drives; other people's tapes are problematic, but a bulk eraser fixes that. Thanks for posting this notice. Rich Alderson Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Erik S. Klein Sent: Saturday, August 30, 2008 5:38 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: CDC/VAX tapes and drives Got this in the mail but the tape systems aren't of interest to me: --- Found your name on a website related to antique computers and components.??There are some vintage items at our company that we will be discarding when we move to a new location so I am contacting you to see if you have any interest.? We have reels of tapes and tape drives that can read tapes written on VAX and CDC systems.? We also have cabinets for hanging reels of tapes.? There is other stuff around too like old PC systems and software that we are just beginning to go through.? So let me know what you are interested in.? Also if you are not interested in the tapes or tape drives do you know anyone who is?? I'd rather give them to someone who wants them then to send them to the recycler. --- If you are interested please drop me a line and I'll forward the contact info. ----- Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum - The Vintage Computer Forums marketplace.vintage-computer.com - The Vintage Computer and Gaming Marketplace From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Sep 2 14:53:44 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 11:53:44 -0800 Subject: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry Computer logic circuits? References: <001301c90c64$0231a280$0301a8c0@hal9000> <1220344634.6713.1.camel@kusanagi> <48BD600B.2040109@jetnet.ab.ca> <7617948C-18A0-4D9B-BFE3-A815C4932641@neurotica.com> <48BD7515.4040808@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <48BD99C7.549FAFE5@cs.ubc.ca> William Donzelli wrote: > > > That would be nice to see ... are there any valve computers > > up and running still? > > In Britain and Germany, at least. I know of none in North America. Does the CHM have a complete 'large'-category tube system that could conceivably be made to run again? When I spoke to Paul Pierce a few years ago he hoped to get his 709 running again, but I think he was viewing it as a retirement project. I would hope some of those smaller drum machines (Bendix, LGP-xx, etc) which are still around in some number would run again. (Yes, there's the one in Germany). IIRC, Tom Jennings had an LGP- he was working on. From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Tue Sep 2 13:58:34 2008 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 14:58:34 -0400 Subject: CDC/VAX tapes and drives References: Message-ID: <18621.36058.441878.359472@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Rich" == Rich Alderson writes: Rich> Hi, Erik, We would be interested in this. We can certainly use Rich> the tape racks and drives; other people's tapes are Rich> problematic, but a bulk eraser fixes that. Eek. If those tapes contain things that are worth preserving, that would be a bad idea. I can't tell from the original note whether "CDC/VAX" describes the drives, or the tapes, or both. If it describes the tapes, it may well be that they contain stuff that should be preserved and hasn't yet been. There's an active CDC community out there that I'm sure would want to take a look at any tapes before they are sent to the eraser. paul From feldman.r at comcast.net Tue Sep 2 14:03:13 2008 From: feldman.r at comcast.net (feldman.r at comcast.net) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 19:03:13 +0000 Subject: HP200LX, e-text and vertical reader Message-ID: <090220081903.28337.48BD8DF100045AB000006EB122007347489DD2020E030B040A00@comcast.net> Vertical Reader (1.11, the file is VR100.zip) can be downloaded from the HPLX S.U.P.E.R. ftp site at http://super.hplx.net/anonftp/pub/. For my personal taste, I found the lines in VR too short, so I wrote a "Horizontal Reader". It's not as polished as VR, but I can send the program and Turbo C source code to anyone who would like it. There is still a moderately active mailing list for the HP 200LX. The link for information is http://eberl.com/HPLX. The old HPLX information center at http://super.hplx.net/ is still up, but most of its links are broken. If you need to get a 200LX fixed, go to http://www.palmtoppaper.com/store/asp/prodtype.asp?prodtype=27 (in the US; there are others in Europe who do HPLX repairs). Bob From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Sep 2 14:03:56 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 20:03:56 +0100 Subject: installing more memory In-Reply-To: <48BD7EC2.7050707@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <351194.95956.qm@web23407.mail.ird.yahoo.com> <48BD7B34.6040300@gjcp.net> <48BD7EC2.7050707@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <48BD8E1C.90505@gjcp.net> bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > Gordon JC Pearce wrote: >> >> It's mechanically very strong, and rarely presents a problem unless >> you damage it in some way (forcing memory in the wrong way, pouring >> liquids into it, sandblasting it, drilling holes in it, etc). >> > And just how would you know? I used to work for IBM EPOS tech support, and spent a bit of time looking at the corpses brought back by the failed circus engineers. 'Nuff said. Gordon From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Sep 2 14:04:25 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 15:04:25 -0400 Subject: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry Computer logic circuits? In-Reply-To: <48BD99C7.549FAFE5@cs.ubc.ca> References: <001301c90c64$0231a280$0301a8c0@hal9000> <1220344634.6713.1.camel@kusanagi> <48BD600B.2040109@jetnet.ab.ca> <7617948C-18A0-4D9B-BFE3-A815C4932641@neurotica.com> <48BD7515.4040808@jetnet.ab.ca> <48BD99C7.549FAFE5@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > Does the CHM have a complete 'large'-category tube system that could > conceivably be made to run again? Al? > When I spoke to Paul Pierce a few years ago he hoped to get his 709 running > again, but I think he was viewing it as a retirement project. Certainly a 709 is possible. Depending on the condition of the tubes, or how well one has been squirreling them away, it could be expensive as well. > I would hope some of those smaller drum machines (Bendix, LGP-xx, etc) which > are still around in some number would run again. (Yes, there's the one in > Germany). IIRC, Tom Jennings had an LGP- he was working on. Yes, the smaller drum machines should not be to bad. 400 small tubes in a system is not a big deal at all. Things like the condition of the drum, however, can be a big deal. I think there is a working IBM 650 in Germany as well. -- Will From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Sep 2 14:05:07 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 12:05:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: installing more memory In-Reply-To: <920AABE9521A429EAD8FC049D030B108@FLEXPC> Message-ID: <651577.10360.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > >> It's mechanically very strong, and rarely > presents a problem unless > >> you damage it in some way (forcing memory in the > wrong way, pouring > >> liquids into it, sandblasting it, drilling holes > in it, etc). > >> > > And just how would you know? > Some years ago a friend turned up asking for help. > He'd purchased a motherboard that needed 168-pin SDRAM > (that's two little slots in the stick and two > corresponding > ridges in the connector to give you a hint). He' also > purchased two sticks of 184-pin DDR. > > "I've managed to fit one but it doesn't > work". > > FWIW the memory had survived, the socket had come > off slightly worse. With the amount of force he'd > used, he'd managed to not only to damage the ridges > in the connector but also remove at least one half > of one of the gold contacts. Hehe. I have seen older Macintosh computers that have had memory forcefully rammed into them. You see, most of the higher end, pre-G3 PowerMacs took 168pin, 5v DRAM. The memory modules and the sockets look almost identical to PC style 3.3v SDRAM. Except one of the little notches is about 1/8" to one side. Therefore, while the memory looks like it should fit, it won't, or at least, not until it's REALLY pounded in there, and the the tab in the socket crunches a notch into the edge of the memory module. I've even seen some memory that had been filed to fit. > But other than that I've found DIMM sockets to be very > reliable. I have one motherboard that I've used to > test SDRAM before selling it on, and despite having had > a large number of insertions and removals (all in the > same socket too ...) it's still going strong. I used to work at an electronics recycler. To quickly test PC SDRAM, we simply plugged it into a motherboard. I had this one ASUS Pentium III board that I used to test all the RAM - and on days when we tested memory, I would literally test hundreds of modules at a rip. Plug one in, hit the power switch, CMOS test passed - note amount of memory it registered, turn off the board, yank the chip and toss it in the appropriate bin, plug in another, etc. That board survived many thousands of inertions/removals. Eventually the tabs on the sockets would break off, but it didn't much matter, you could still plug and unplug the memory. The board would continue to work just fine. Occasionally a socket would require cleaning, which was done by spraying cleaner on a junk memory stick, and jamming it in the socket repeatedly, then letting the board dry. I can't really remember ever having to _replace_ the motherboard. It always just worked. Only one socket at a time was used - alternating whenever one seemed to be getting dirty, but the first socket took most of the abuse. These "memory tests" were far from conclusive, and simply served to quickly weed out the obvious duds and sort by capacity. But, the board survived. Computer hardware is a lot more robust than most people give it credit for. -Ian From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Tue Sep 2 14:11:25 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 20:11:25 +0100 Subject: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry Computer logic circuits? In-Reply-To: <7617948C-18A0-4D9B-BFE3-A815C4932641@neurotica.com> References: <001301c90c64$0231a280$0301a8c0@hal9000> <1220344634.6713.1.camel@kusanagi> <48BD600B.2040109@jetnet.ab.ca> <7617948C-18A0-4D9B-BFE3-A815C4932641@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <48BD8FDD.9010207@gjcp.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Sep 2, 2008, at 11:47 AM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >>> Us amp builders >>> love them for their second-harmonicy crunch... >>> >> Still with out the guitar amp people, I don't think any kind of valves >> would be around for people like myself to play music through. > > Did all the tubes disappear or something? LOTS AND LOTS of tubes were They're still being made, mostly in the former USSR. After Mullard stopped producing valves in the 1980s, a company in the USSR bought the whole lot up and shipped it across. If you buy a Sovtek ECC83 or EL34, it's exactly like an old Mullard one. Gordon From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Sep 2 14:13:05 2008 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 12:13:05 -0700 Subject: CDC/VAX tapes and drives In-Reply-To: <18621.36058.441878.359472@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <18621.36058.441878.359472@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: Sorry, everyone. That was *supposed* to be a private reply to Erik. Let me clarify that "other people's tapes" means *data* tapes, not manufacturer-supplied distribution media. The original post did not make clear exactly what was on offer. Rich Alderson Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Koning Sent: Tuesday, September 02, 2008 11:59 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: RE: CDC/VAX tapes and drives >>>>> "Rich" == Rich Alderson writes: Rich> Hi, Erik, We would be interested in this. We can certainly use Rich> the tape racks and drives; other people's tapes are Rich> problematic, but a bulk eraser fixes that. Eek. If those tapes contain things that are worth preserving, that would be a bad idea. I can't tell from the original note whether "CDC/VAX" describes the drives, or the tapes, or both. If it describes the tapes, it may well be that they contain stuff that should be preserved and hasn't yet been. There's an active CDC community out there that I'm sure would want to take a look at any tapes before they are sent to the eraser. paul From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 2 13:25:28 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 19:25:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: Free Linux and OpenOffice - even if your email address doesn't In-Reply-To: <48BC648F.4030206@jetnet.ab.ca> from "bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca" at Sep 1, 8 03:54:23 pm Message-ID: > So what is a example of a NON-BROKEN terminal I can use > as a standard DEC terminal? I am thinking of picking a used > one off E-Pay. If you mean a physical terminal (as opposed to terminal emulator software), then I'd got for a DEC VTxxx. The VT300 series seem to eat flyback transformers, so it's probably best to avoid those. The VT220 is fine (if it does all you need), latter VT400 and VT500 series are said to be good (although I've never used them). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 2 13:30:24 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 19:30:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: Needed information since the list is slow In-Reply-To: <48BCBFDF.1080408@jetnet.ab.ca> from "bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca" at Sep 1, 8 10:23:59 pm Message-ID: > > *FOUND READING ON THE NET* > > This ultra modern aluminum foil hat will protect your pet from the brain > scanning rays of the NSA, certain 'auction' websites, fbi.com, and CIA > satellites that are monitoring their little subversive thoughts. You may My PET is enclosed in a mostly steel case. Do I still need this? -tony From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Sep 2 14:56:11 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 13:56:11 -0600 Subject: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry Computer logic circuits? In-Reply-To: <48BD8FDD.9010207@gjcp.net> References: <001301c90c64$0231a280$0301a8c0@hal9000> <1220344634.6713.1.camel@kusanagi> <48BD600B.2040109@jetnet.ab.ca> <7617948C-18A0-4D9B-BFE3-A815C4932641@neurotica.com> <48BD8FDD.9010207@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <48BD9A5B.2030300@jetnet.ab.ca> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > They're still being made, mostly in the former USSR. After Mullard > stopped producing valves in the 1980s, a company in the USSR bought > the whole lot up and shipped it across. If you buy a Sovtek ECC83 or > EL34, it's exactly like an old Mullard one. > I buy 6B4G's,5889's,6BQ7A's and throw in a 12DW7 and a 0B2 for good measure. :) > Gordon > And plenty of Big Iron ... Oh wait you want puter big iron. From bpope at wordstock.com Tue Sep 2 15:21:02 2008 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 16:21:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Free Linux and OpenOffice - even if your email address doesn't In-Reply-To: <200809010127285.SM04984@[63.69.23.239]> Message-ID: <20080902202102.EEEA457000@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the !wise words spake by tonym > > > I know I said I wouldn't reply, but my God, man, you are totally out of = > touch with reality. > I see stories about people like you on CNN - =22He was always very quiet, = > and kept to himself...=22 > > Ray, check yourself into the nearest mental health institute, for your = > sake, for your family's sake. > You're not stable, man.=20 > Ya got serious issues interfacing with humans, serious issues = > understanding simple 5th grade sentences, > and some strange need for cursing to feel like a man... > I once heard a saying when I was young: =22Profanity is the device that = > makes ignorance audible.=22 > > And what WAS all that psychotic, incoherent babbling? I have NO idea what = > you were ranting about, but seek help. > I found his rant quite coherent and also quite hilarious... There was much fun being poked!! Cheers, Bryan > Um, this WILL be my last message to, or about you, because there is NO way = > that you are a stable individual, > with all that incoherent rambling, and I do NOT want to be the one = > responsible for you =22snapping,=22 and going on > a spree... > > So, I'm pretty sure, knowing your type, that you want the last word, so go = > ahead and have it, so we can end this, > and maybe avoid you going on a rampage of some sort and hurting yourself, = > or or worse, someone else.= > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Sep 2 15:24:51 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 14:24:51 -0600 Subject: OT: Needed information since the list is slow In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48BDA113.1090306@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > My PET is enclosed in a mostly steel case. Do I still need this? > > A: Only if you both share the little wheel that goes around and around. > -tony > > From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Sep 2 15:30:50 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 16:30:50 -0400 Subject: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry Computer logic circuits? In-Reply-To: <48BD9A5B.2030300@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <001301c90c64$0231a280$0301a8c0@hal9000> <1220344634.6713.1.camel@kusanagi> <48BD600B.2040109@jetnet.ab.ca> <7617948C-18A0-4D9B-BFE3-A815C4932641@neurotica.com> <48BD8FDD.9010207@gjcp.net> <48BD9A5B.2030300@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > I buy 6B4G's,5889's,6BQ7A's and throw in a 12DW7 and a 0B2 for good > measure. :) Please, guys, do not turn this into a tube audio thread. The list is already on thin ice. -- Will From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Sep 2 16:00:37 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 16:00:37 -0500 Subject: installing more memory In-Reply-To: <651577.10360.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <651577.10360.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48BDA975.9030901@gmail.com> Mr Ian Primus wrote: >> "I've managed to fit one but it doesn't work". Heh - oops! > Hehe. I have seen older Macintosh computers that have had memory forcefully > rammed into them. I seem to remember someone - and I think it was Amstrad - shipped machines with simms (pre-dimm days!) which were an incredibly tight fit into the sockets, and the simm contacts weren't gold-plated either. Couple that with a fair dose of heat and all sorts of interesting things used to happen. I remember simms which used 'normal' DIL ICs too, rather than surface-mount, and the manufacturer didn't bother to trim the legs - mechanical fouling was common in systems which used the angled simm sockets. > I used to work at an electronics recycler. To quickly test PC SDRAM, we > simply plugged it into a motherboard. I had this one ASUS Pentium III board > that I used to test all the RAM - and on days when we tested memory, I > would literally test hundreds of modules at a rip. Plug one in, hit the > power switch, CMOS test passed - note amount of memory it registered, turn > off the board, yank the chip and toss it in the appropriate bin, plug in > another, etc. > > That board survived many thousands of inertions/removals. Eventually the > tabs on the sockets would break off, but it didn't much matter, you could > still plug and unplug the memory. Yep, been there myself many years ago; I recall we deliberately broke the metal tabs off the sockets to make it easier to get modules in and out quickly. We were somewhat cavalier about anti-static precautions... > I can't really remember ever having > to _replace_ the motherboard. It always just worked. I know back in the days when PCs were still expensive, I had at least one which had found its way to me as junk - problem turned out to be slightly bent contacts on one of the memory sockets. > These "memory tests" were far from conclusive, and simply served to quickly > weed out the obvious duds and sort by capacity. Yep. I can't remember what we used to do actual memory tests now; it may well have been Checkit (I know we had a copy, just can't remember if it had a memory test feature that worked properly!) cheers Jules From tosteve at yahoo.com Tue Sep 2 16:22:52 2008 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 14:22:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WANTED: AIM-65 PASCAL and/or PL/65 ROMs Message-ID: <861258.7489.qm@web51605.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Please let me know if anyone can send me the AIM-65 PASCAL and/or PL/65 ROMs. Either originals or copies. Thanks- Steve. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 2 16:25:09 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 14:25:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Needed information since the list is slow In-Reply-To: <48BDA113.1090306@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <48BDA113.1090306@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20080902142443.U39432@shell.lmi.net> Tony Duell wrote: > My PET is enclosed in a mostly steel case. Do I still need this? Is your cat named "Faraday"? From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Tue Sep 2 16:35:04 2008 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 22:35:04 +0100 Subject: Mullard valves. Was Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry Computer logic circuits? In-Reply-To: <200809021922.m82JLjBS086469@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200809021922.m82JLjBS086469@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <052B90BB-ED92-4E53-814C-0224BA674678@microspot.co.uk> On 2 Sep, 2008, at 20:22, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > Message: 28 > Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 20:11:25 +0100 > From: Gordon JC Pearce > Dave McGuire wrote: >> On Sep 2, 2008, at 11:47 AM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >>>> Us amp builders >>>> love them for their second-harmonicy crunch... >>>> >>> Still with out the guitar amp people, I don't think any kind of >>> valves >>> would be around for people like myself to play music through. >> >> Did all the tubes disappear or something? LOTS AND LOTS of tubes >> were > > They're still being made, mostly in the former USSR. After Mullard > stopped producing valves in the 1980s, a company in the USSR bought > the > whole lot up and shipped it across. If you buy a Sovtek ECC83 or > EL34, > it's exactly like an old Mullard one. I think they stopped production earlier than that, though they were probably selling their stock for some time after. Next to the Marconi- Elliott works at Rochester airport was (IIRC) a Mullard thermionic valve factory. Not to be confused with the Fisher fluid valve factory at the other side of the Elliott works. Around 1975/6 there was a period when due to car problems I used to wait near the Mullard works for my regular lift home and every night there was another batch of valve testing benches standing outside waiting to be collected. It went on for months, probably carried on after I got my car sorted out. From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Tue Sep 2 17:07:24 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 22:07:24 +0000 Subject: infocom on other systems In-Reply-To: <20080902184533.GA31462@lucky.misty.com> References: <200809020234.m822YxnB026040@mail.rickmurphy.net> <20080902061956.GA28439@usap.gov> <20080902184533.GA31462@lucky.misty.com> Message-ID: <20080902220724.GB5788@usap.gov> On Tue, Sep 02, 2008 at 02:45:33PM -0400, Mark G. Thomas wrote: > Hi, > > On Tue, Sep 02, 2008 at 06:19:56AM +0000, Ethan Dicks wrote: > .... > > I completely appreciate the sentiment - that's why I helped out a couple > > of years back on an 1802 Z-Machine.... (for the) Elf-2000 and... > > Embedded Elf... > > Is the 1802 Z-machine code available anywhere? One of these days I'm > going to get one of my Quest Super-ELF machines set up again, and > also build my ELF-2000. It's a slam-dunk for your Elf-2000. Just slap on the STG disk board and go get Elf/OS for it... http://www.elf-emulation.com/elfos.html Once you have things installed, go get this and assemble the source... http://www.elf-emulation.com/software/elfos/zrun3.tgz I haven't found a V3 Infocom game file yet that wouldn't run with ZRUN3. If you do find a problem, _please_ let me know. Mike Riley did the coding, but I set up problem sets and helped interpret the Z-machine specification for him when there was some ambiguity. I would very much like to hear about it if there is some condition somewhere that we didn't cover. As for your Super-ELF, you'd need to rig it up with 32K of RAM (for ZRUN3, at least), and port the ElfOS BIOS routines to your particular hardware configuration, where it differs from the Elf2K. I have a couple of SuperElf boards myself, bought as-is, that I have yet to complete debugging on (among other problems I _think_ the 74C922s are damaged on both boards and I have yet to secure a replacement chip to verify my probings). Once I get them working, I plan to construct some sort of ElfOS-compatible CF interface and get ElfOS working on them. Since I already have an Elf2K and an EmbeddedElf that work, hacking a disk onto the SuperElf is way down the list of projects, but it _is_ on the list. Here's a free tip when you get your Elf2K assembled... don't forget to either stick a battery in the holder for the NVRAM controller chip, or to remove the NVRAM controller chip and bypass it as described in the manual. Using the chip with no battery can lead to flakey operation. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 2-Sep-2008 at 21:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -43.4 F (-41.9 C) Windchill -78.7 F (-61.5 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 17.0 kts Grid 31 Barometer 680.7 mb (10602 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Sep 2 17:10:20 2008 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 22:10:20 +0000 (GMT) Subject: installing more memory In-Reply-To: <48BD7B34.6040300@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <834294.70205.qm@web23404.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Thanks to everyone for all the tips and info. One last question which I forgot to include earlier: There are 2 stickers on both sides of the card covering all 4 RAM chips. Should these be removed before installing? I'm thinking yes, as its a potential fire hazard, but the stickers contain the manufacturers logo (someone I have never heard of) and other info which will probably be damaged on removal. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Sep 2 17:19:38 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 23:19:38 +0100 Subject: installing more memory In-Reply-To: <834294.70205.qm@web23404.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7DC15E9387D1421FAD0DB03CC87D1AC4@FLEXPC> Andrew Burton wrote: > Thanks to everyone for all the tips and info. One last question which > I forgot to include earlier: > > There are 2 stickers on both sides of the card covering all 4 RAM > chips. Should these be removed before installing? > > I'm thinking yes, as its a potential fire hazard, but the stickers > contain the manufacturers logo (someone I have never heard of) and > other info which will probably be damaged on removal. You should leave that alone. Antonio From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Sep 2 17:34:18 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 15:34:18 -0700 Subject: infocom on other systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48BDBF6A.80504@brouhaha.com> Henk Gooijen wrote: > But may I say *ME TOO*!!! I'd love to get a ZORK copy running > straight on the PDP-11. It exists on RX0[1|2] (?) floppy, you > can even see that on on Amazon. But I never read of a person who > actually has it! I'd swap a dozen RX floppies for one floppy > with the PDP-11 version of ZORK on it! I know one person who has an original Infocom game for the PDP-11 on an RX01 floppy. IIRC, the game is Planetfall. Not as historically significant as Zork, but quite a fun game. I haven't managed to convince him to trade or sell it, but I could probably get him to make a copy for me. At one point Infocom had a fire sale on their games for platforms for which they were dropping support. I already had all the games for the Apple II and/or Mac, but I bought all of them for the Kaypro II. I should have bought some for other platforms. Oh well. Eric From alanp at snowmoose.com Tue Sep 2 18:07:53 2008 From: alanp at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 16:07:53 -0700 Subject: Anyone want a SS5? Message-ID: <48BDC749.8030605@snowmoose.com> As previously mentioned, I have a Sun SparcStation 5 that I rescued from my uncle. I have gone through it and here are the details: SparcStation 5 32 Meg memory 2G disk Solaris 2.6 installed Sun 5C keyboard Sun Compact 1 (ball, not optical, three-button) mouse 15" Color Monitor (Model 447L) I booted it, ran OPB diagnostics, installed Solaris 2.6 and everything seems to work fine. Located in the Seattle, WA area. Price: Make offer alan From onymouse at garlic.com Tue Sep 2 08:04:22 2008 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 06:04:22 -0700 Subject: OT: Needed information since the list is slow In-Reply-To: <20080901212905.G952@shell.lmi.net> References: <200809020234.m822YxnB026040@mail.rickmurphy.net> <48BCBFDF.1080408@jetnet.ab.ca> <20080901212905.G952@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <48BD39D6.2060109@garlic.com> Fred Cisin ????????: > Recent detailed analysis has shown that the aluminum foil hat operates as > an antenna. > Is there enough usable energy in mind-control waves? Connect it to a series of collectors or batteries to power your personal gear and take the remaining power home. Might be able to market them as "green". . From rick at rickmurphy.net Tue Sep 2 18:49:13 2008 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 19:49:13 -0400 Subject: infocom on other systems In-Reply-To: <20080902061956.GA28439@usap.gov> References: <200809020234.m822YxnB026040@mail.rickmurphy.net> <20080902061956.GA28439@usap.gov> Message-ID: <200809022349.m82NnEFc009532@mail.rickmurphy.net> At 02:19 AM 9/2/2008, Ethan Dicks wrote: >On Mon, Sep 01, 2008 at 10:34:58PM -0400, Rick Murphy wrote: > > Good luck with getting the interpreter running on the PDP-8. I'd say > > that it's pretty much impossible. > >I don't know about _impossible_ but it certainly is extremely difficult. > > > Getting something as simple as Adventure fit onto the PDP-8 was a lot > > more work than I'd like to admit. Anything more complex is out of the > > question. > >It's not a case of brute-force vs complexity... Adventure is a >monolithic FORTRAN (now FORTRAN or C) program, and even with overlays, >it's a) huge, and b) internally complex. The advantage of the Z-machine >is that the _game_ complexity is all in the game file. The platform just >has to handle a few dozen opcodes and be able to swap in needed portions >of the game file on smaller hosts (larger hosts, i.e. - that can directly >address 128Kbytes or more, can just pull everything in and advance the >Z-machine program counter at will). Interesting. Seems that there's workarounds for the memory limitations of the '8. Especially if you're willing to work to pack the data (3 8-bit bytes in 2 12-bit words.) Never say never, I guess. :-) -Rick From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 2 19:03:40 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 17:03:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Needed information since the list is slow In-Reply-To: <48BD39D6.2060109@garlic.com> References: <200809020234.m822YxnB026040@mail.rickmurphy.net> <48BCBFDF.1080408@jetnet.ab.ca> <20080901212905.G952@shell.lmi.net> <48BD39D6.2060109@garlic.com> Message-ID: <20080902165136.A39432@shell.lmi.net> > > Recent detailed analysis has shown that the aluminum foil hat operates as > > an antenna. On Tue, 2 Sep 2008, jd wrote: > Is there enough usable energy in mind-control waves? That is why a Cyberdeck is needed to overpower the OS when forcing one's way into a system. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Sep 2 19:39:31 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 17:39:31 -0700 Subject: Computer Automation library floppy images Message-ID: <48BDDCC3.9090808@bitsavers.org> There are now about 400 disks from Computer Automation's program library up at http://bitsavers.org/bits/ComputerAutomation/8_imd. They are in imagedisk format, and are all single sided, single density. There are also some 5" floppies, which i'll work on reading this week. Getting all of the paper directories scanned will take a while. Most of the software is for the LSI-4. CHM has very little on this machine, so hardware and software docs would be good to find. Lars has some material on his site. http://www.sdu.se/computer-automation-museum/ Hopefully this will prompt his donors to find the other LSI-4 docs that they have in storage. From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 2 19:48:00 2008 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 17:48:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ENIAC vs. ENIAC-on-a-Chip IC implementation In-Reply-To: <200809021700.m82H0LNr082791@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <859968.29828.qm@web50508.mail.re2.yahoo.com> gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at wrote: > I think about a FPGA-version of ENIAC, so ist relativly > easy to get the hands on a replica. > > Is there goood documentation available? Is the ENIAC on > a chip project online, that meens, all the docs? The project is generally described here: http://www.ese.upenn.edu/~jan/eniacproj.html But the best technical description of it by far that I've found is in the book, "The First Computers--History and Architectures," MIT Press, eds. R. Rojas, 2000. The relevant pages are online with Google Books here, starting on p121 of the book: http://books.google.com/books?id=nDWPW9uwZPAC&dq=The+First+Computers--History+and+Architectures&pg=PP1&ots=Z_Hcjk3UEs&sig=fnrkvMcQfyTQKFrJHK2whHFliVw&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPA121,M1 The 207 page ENIAC patent is here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/4960983/ENIAC-Patent-US3120606 From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 2 20:31:06 2008 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 18:31:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: vac tubes / was Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry In-Reply-To: <200809021922.m82JLjBQ086469@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <14499.77044.qm@web50507.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Brent Hilpert wrote: > It has occurred to me that if one were setting out to build > a (small?) tube > computer today for fun, to look into selecting the primary > tube(s) from that > class; the question being if one would do any better than > just using > duo-triodes, which are in higher demand. That's exactly what I'm doing. The advantage of going with tubes currently used for audio is that they are still in production, mostly in China and Russia. The disadvantage is that they cost quite a bit more. For small projects like mine, I have no worries about the availability of tubes that are no longer produced. For that matter, I suspect that even very large projects wouldn't have problems with tube availability considering how many of these out of production tubes are apparently still around. For instance, I can buy OOP 5BK7A dual triodes for US$0.78 each (I have ten on hand) or OOP 4BS8 dual triodes (to be purchased on my next order) for $0.38 each. The 5BK7A has a 4.7V heater and the 4BS8 a 4.5V heater. Either of these would work fine at 5V being outside of the typical filament voltage +/-10% rating only very slightly in the case of the 4BS8. For a power supply, I plan to use a modified PC power supply. I have three used, unmodified ones just sitting around from previous PC builds: http://web2.murraystate.edu/andy.batts/ps/powersupply.htm The +12V will be used for the B+ and the +5V for the filaments. Both +12V and -12V could be used for the plate voltage giving a total of 24V as long as the project is small enough to not exceed the 500mA rating (in my case) of the PC power supply -12V output. And, of course, the modified PC power supply will be useful for other projects, too. I've got several homemade variable DC supplies, but they are all limited to 1.5A output which would be exceeded with just three 5BK7A filaments @ 600mA each. From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 2 20:35:30 2008 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 18:35:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: vac tubes / was Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry > Computer In-Reply-To: <200809021922.m82JLjBQ086469@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <950530.63650.qm@web50501.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > Did all the tubes disappear or something? LOTS AND > LOTS of tubes were > > They're still being made, mostly in the former USSR. > After Mullard > stopped producing valves in the 1980s, a company in the > USSR bought the > whole lot up and shipped it across. If you buy a Sovtek > ECC83 or EL34, > it's exactly like an old Mullard one. Here's the list of modern manufacturers: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum_tube#Modern_manufacturers From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Sep 2 21:07:15 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 19:07:15 -0700 Subject: Tube machine restoration (was Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry Computer logic circuits?) Message-ID: <48BDF153.1010104@bitsavers.org> >> Does the CHM have a complete 'large'-category tube system that could >> conceivably be made to run again? > > Al? Not really. Johnniac, WISC, and the G15 are the closest to being complete but none would be a restoration candidate since current CHM restoration guidelines state that a restoration would not occur if a machine is one of a kind, or there is only one in the collection (G15). From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Sep 2 21:11:41 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 19:11:41 -0700 Subject: Computer Automation library floppy images In-Reply-To: <48BDDCC3.9090808@bitsavers.org> References: <48BDDCC3.9090808@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <48BDF25D.4020809@bitsavers.org> Al Kossow wrote: > There are also some 5" floppies, which i'll work on reading this week. > no joy, the 5" are soft sectored but can't be read with imagedisk. will have to wait until I can find out what the sector format is. the docs claim they were only 70k. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Sep 2 22:25:56 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 23:25:56 -0400 Subject: vac tubes / was Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry In-Reply-To: <14499.77044.qm@web50507.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <200809021922.m82JLjBQ086469@dewey.classiccmp.org> <14499.77044.qm@web50507.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > I've got several homemade variable DC supplies, but they are all limited to 1.5A output which would be exceeded with just three 5BK7A filaments @ 600mA each. An old filament transformer would solve all your problems in this area. Not expensive. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Sep 2 22:31:29 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 23:31:29 -0400 Subject: Tube machine restoration (was Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry Computer logic circuits?) In-Reply-To: <48BDF153.1010104@bitsavers.org> References: <48BDF153.1010104@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > Not really. Johnniac, WISC, and the G15 are the closest to being complete > but none would be a restoration candidate since current CHM restoration > guidelines state that a restoration would not occur if a machine is one of > a kind, or there is only one in the collection (G15). I can certainly understand the one-of-a-kind constraint, but if another REAL museum gets a similar machine, do you think CHM would change its mind? For example, if the Smithsonian Institution were to own the G-15 it currently has on (permanent) loan, would that count, knowing that they will never restore it? If the drum is good, a G-15 probably would not be all that hard to get running. Providing birds did not shit all over it. -- Will From oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org Tue Sep 2 22:44:00 2008 From: oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 21:44:00 -0600 Subject: Insulator/shielding in DEC power supply Message-ID: <48BE0800.4070009@rogerwilco.org> Ian King said: > I'm reconditioning some H7100A power supply units in a VAX-11/785, and > I've come across something I haven't seen before. I'm hoping one of you > has. :) > > This particular PSU was labeled 'Memory Power Supply' and has additional > regulator boards for a 15v rail. Slipped between those boards were two > sheets of what looked like heavy-duty paper. However, one had > delaminated, demonstrating that it is a sheet of thin copper sandwiched > between two paper-like layers. That suggests to me that this was intended > more for EMI shielding than electrical isolation. I did not see these sheets in > another PSU that also had a supplemental regulator. > > Does this sound familiar to anyone? TIA - Ian In my VAX 11/750[1], each of two power supplies (2.5v and 5v) also contain this 'heavy' paper separator between adjacent boards. I've noticed that this paper is pretty thick, not quite what you'd call cardstock, but getting close. In my case, I haven't noticed any de-laminating, so can't confirm the copper foil inside, however, I have commented to myself a time or two that each sheet just 'feels' heavy. If there really is foil inside, I don't know how much EMI suppression it would do, since there is no connection of ground or other way to bleed of any incident energy. Rather, I'd guess they probably make pretty good reflectors of EMI, instead. But what do I know, I'm hardly a hardware guy. - Jared [1] Was brainless when picked up almost a year ago, but I've since gathered a set of all of the CPU boards, memory and other necessaries. Just picked up a DEUNA, but still need the cab-kit for it. Fixed the faulty 5V power supply, but now the 2.5V PS is goofy; presently working on that. At this rate, I'm now hoping to fire the whole system up for the first time, sometime before, oh, I don't know, maybe before Christmas?! :) From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Sep 2 22:53:40 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 23:53:40 -0400 Subject: Insulator/shielding in DEC power supply In-Reply-To: <48BE0800.4070009@rogerwilco.org> References: <48BE0800.4070009@rogerwilco.org> Message-ID: > If there really is foil inside, > I don't know how much EMI suppression it would do, > since there is no connection of ground or other way > to bleed of any incident energy. Rather, I'd guess > they probably make pretty good reflectors of EMI, > instead. But what do I know, I'm hardly a hardware > guy. Yes, it may be more magnetic. USR ran into a problem with the power supplies for their rack modems when I worked there - one of the transformers on the SMPS power supply board(s) leaked a little too many flux lines onto the closest signal board (NMC?), causing problems. There was a quick fix with a shield. I suppose it worked on eddy currents or something. -- Will From vze323vd at verizon.net Tue Sep 2 04:17:34 2008 From: vze323vd at verizon.net (Greg Manuel (V)) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 05:17:34 -0400 Subject: Wanted: System V Release 4 (Intel) OS In-Reply-To: <205ABDD7-D0B3-4D68-8D92-5D525653A280@gmail.com> Message-ID: It is on floppy Tom. I will try to dig it out and verify it in the next couple of days then will get back to you. Greg > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of The Pitlog > Sent: Monday, September 01, 2008 9:06 AM > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Wanted: System V Release 4 (Intel) OS > > > Greg, > > I've never used UnixWare, but if it is essentially SVR4.2 with some > additions and comes with a development system, I'm happy to give it a > try. Do you remember if it was on floppy or tape? > > Thanks very much for offering. > > Feel free to contact me off list to work out the details. > > Cheers, > Tom > > -------------- Greg said --------------- > Hi Tom, > > I'll have to check this week, but I believe I have a set for UnixWare > 1.1 > from Novell. If you are not familiar with it, it is basically System V > Version 4.2 with an IPX protocol added IIRC. Let me know if this will > work > for you. > > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Sep 2 09:17:07 2008 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 10:17:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Sun Workshop 7.0 stuff available In-Reply-To: <48BCF555.8040309@snowmoose.com> References: <48BCF555.8040309@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <200809021424.KAA13472@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > There is also a SparcStation 5, a 16" Sun monitor (the one with all > of the display control buttons along the bottom), kbd, mouse, etc. What model of keyboard? If it's a type-3, and is in decent shape, I'm definitely interested in getting hold of it. (The "decent shape" bit is mostly about the wide keys - left shift and return are the worst - not binding if pressed off-center. In my experience that is the commonest failure mode for type-3s.) If you don't know Sun keyboard models, the simple thing to do is to look at the pad of keys to the right of the main letter area. If there's only one block of keys there, in a 3x5 array of keys marked R1 through R15, it's most likely either type-3 or type-2; if it has a permanently attached cable which terminates in a DA15M, I think that indicates type-3 (the type-2s I've seen terminate in a phone-style plug which plugs into a small breakout box which has the DA15 on it). > If you have an interest in any of this stuff, let me know. I don't > want it to get thrown out, but I don't really want it in my garage > either. Same here. If you don't find any other home for the SS5, I likely can take it, especially if you'll be shipping me something anyway. If you want to write me off-list (I'm sending this to the list in case anyone else has a type-3 looking for a home), the headers of your list message make me think you probably can send directly; if that bounces, I recommend trying mouse at netbsd.org. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From rups1967 at googlemail.com Tue Sep 2 16:07:44 2008 From: rups1967 at googlemail.com (Rupert Kirkham) Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 22:07:44 +0100 Subject: DataDock 7000 Message-ID: <48bdab60.1836440a.6fc9.ffffd814@mx.google.com> Dear All, I am restoring a Data Dock 7000 that was languishing neglected in a dusty corner and I wondered if anyone has any information regarding these "wee beasties". Regards, Rupert. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Sep 3 02:55:56 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2008 23:55:56 -0800 Subject: vac tubes / was Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry References: <14499.77044.qm@web50507.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48BE430D.1F93A7F@cs.ubc.ca> William Blair wrote: > > Brent Hilpert wrote: > > > It has occurred to me that if one were setting out to build > > a (small?) tube > > computer today for fun, to look into selecting the primary > > tube(s) from that > > class; the question being if one would do any better than > > just using > > duo-triodes, which are in higher demand. > > That's exactly what I'm doing. The advantage of going with tube > currently used for audio is that they are still in production, > mostly in China and Russia. The disadvantage is that they cost > quite a bit more. For small projects like mine, I have no worries > about the availability of tubes that are no longer produced. For > that matter, I suspect that even very large projects wouldn't > have problems with tube availability considering how many of these > out of production tubes are apparently still around. For instance, > I can buy OOP 5BK7A dual triodes for US$0.78 each (I have ten on > hand) or OOP 4BS8 dual triodes (to be purchased on my next order) > for $0.38 each. The 5BK7A has a 4.7V heater and the 4BS8 a 4.5V > heater. Either of these would work fine at 5V being outside of > the typical filament voltage +/-10% rating only very slightly in > the case of the 4BS8. > .. Great, you're already there, didn't realise from your earlier posts that you were looking at such off-the-beaten-path tubes. I forgot there were so many duo-triodes in that class with 4,5,8V,etc. filaments (don't tell the audio tweaks). Make something using enough tubes and one can wire up the filaments in series as they were intended for.. From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Wed Sep 3 03:35:19 2008 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 10:35:19 +0200 Subject: Slightly OT: SR-52 Service manual Message-ID: <04E558C2C05746F99FEB4B88AF30F21C@xp1800> _____ I'm bussy restoring a Ti SR-52 and having some trouble with the card reader electronics. I't's reading prerecorded cards fine, but is not writing data on the cards . And it does not transport the card fully through the card reader, I have to pull the card the last few millimeters before it gets free from the capstand. So I'm searching for a schematic diagram or service manual. -Rik From gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at Wed Sep 3 04:32:23 2008 From: gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at (DI Gerhard Kreuzer) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 11:32:23 +0200 Subject: ENIAC vs. ENIAC-on-a-Chip IC implementation Message-ID: <20080903113223.k1dey92zkk48ggc0@webmail.domainplanet.at> Hi William, thanks a lot. I found the book noted at the page of Jan van der Spiegeln, who did the project years ago. He tell me the ISBN, but I will see, whats Google offer me. Thanks a lot Gerhard From ian_primus at yahoo.com Wed Sep 3 07:30:32 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 05:30:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: installing more memory In-Reply-To: <834294.70205.qm@web23404.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <616947.55187.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 9/2/08, Andrew Burton wrote: > Thanks to everyone for all the tips and info. One last > question which I forgot to include earlier: > > There are 2 stickers on both sides of the card covering all > 4 RAM chips. Should these be removed before installing? > > I'm thinking yes, as its a potential fire hazard, but > the stickers contain the manufacturers logo (someone I have > never heard of) and other info which will probably be > damaged on removal. You mean the stickers on the memory modules, or the stickers on the logic board underneath the memory sockets? Either way, those stickers are supposed to be there. The ones on the memory are to identify the module. Also, on many laptops, there are thick plastic stickers on the logic board under the memory sockets. These protect the board from accidental damage when careless users fit more memory. Leave any stickers alone - they're there for a purpose, if only to identify the part. These things don't get that hot anyway. Far from igniting paper or melting adhesive. Think "lukewarm coffee". -Ian From lbickley at bickleywest.com Wed Sep 3 10:16:27 2008 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 08:16:27 -0700 Subject: Tube machine restoration (was Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry Computer logic circuits?) In-Reply-To: References: <48BDF153.1010104@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <200809030816.28040.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Tuesday 02 September 2008, William Donzelli wrote: > > Not really. Johnniac, WISC, and the G15 are the closest to being > > complete but none would be a restoration candidate since current > > CHM restoration guidelines state that a restoration would not > > occur if a machine is one of a kind, or there is only one in the > > collection (G15). > > I can certainly understand the one-of-a-kind constraint, but if > another REAL museum gets a similar machine, do you think CHM would > change its mind? For example, if the Smithsonian Institution were > to own the G-15 it currently has on (permanent) loan, would that > count, knowing that they will never restore it? > > If the drum is good, a G-15 probably would not be all that hard to > get running. Providing birds did not shit all over it. The CHM Restoration Committee, some CHM PDP-1/IBM 1620 Restoration Team Members (including myself) have a G-15 in the "short list" in their thinking regarding potential restorations. There's plenty of software available for the G-15 - and the project is a lot less demanding than the DEC PDP-1, IBM 1401 and IBM 1620 projects we have or are tackling. If we obtained an additional G-15 from another source, that would certainly be a factor in making such a decision. However, by necessity, the restoration selection process at the CHM is complex - as it has to take into consideration everything from exhibit plans, demo requirements, educational value, availability of staff, team leadership, volunteers, etc... Regards, Lyle > > -- > Will -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA 94040 http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Sep 3 10:55:36 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 11:55:36 -0400 Subject: WANTED: AIM-65 PASCAL and/or PL/65 ROMs Message-ID: <01C90DBC.1DC2FAE0@host-208-72-123-35.dyn.295.ca> >Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2008 14:22:52 -0700 (PDT) >From: steven stengel >Subject: WANTED: AIM-65 PASCAL and/or PL/65 ROMs >Please let me know if anyone can send me the AIM-65 PASCAL and/or PL/65 ROMs. >Either originals or copies. >Thanks- >Steve. -------------------------- Didn't know there's a PASCAL, but PL/65, FORTH etc. docs and binaries at: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/systems.htm m From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Sep 3 11:10:14 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 10:10:14 -0600 Subject: vac tubes / was Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry In-Reply-To: <48BE430D.1F93A7F@cs.ubc.ca> References: <14499.77044.qm@web50507.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <48BE430D.1F93A7F@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <48BEB6E6.7040509@jetnet.ab.ca> Brent Hilpert wrote: > Great, you're already there, didn't realise from your earlier posts that you > were looking at such off-the-beaten-path tubes. I forgot there were so many > duo-triodes in that class with 4,5,8V,etc. filaments (don't tell the audio tweaks). > > Too Late !:) > Make something using enough tubes and one can wire up the filaments in series > as they > were intended for.. > > But then you get HUM again. :( From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Wed Sep 3 11:09:32 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 13:09:32 -0300 Subject: Paper tapes+rubber bands+30 yrs = mess References: <20080903141249.GA15792@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <0cef01c90ddf$a6a1a7d0$06fea8c0@portajara> > Has anyone dealt with this kind of cleanup before? What are my best > options for solvents to get rid of what's left of the rubber without > damaging the tapes too much more? Chris, I'm pretty sure you can clean (very carefully with a picker and a swab) these tapes with "Benzina". I don't know how it is called in English. Maybe "white spirits" or something like that. It dissolves rubber (even very old rubber) and cleans the paper without attacking the paper fibers. But be VERY careful. It is toxic. Greetz from Brazil Alexandre PS: Now that is something I never tried to make - a paper reader. Must be a fun weekend project :oD From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 3 11:18:24 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 09:18:24 -0700 Subject: vac tubes / was Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry In-Reply-To: <48BE430D.1F93A7F@cs.ubc.ca> References: <14499.77044.qm@web50507.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <48BE430D.1F93A7F@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <48BE5660.12860.2E90F713@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Sep 2008 at 23:55, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Make something using enough tubes and one can wire up the filaments in > series as they were intended for.. If you run from line voltage, be sure to hang an NE-2 (with built-in series resistor) in parallel with each heater so that you can easily see when one opens up. That used to be one of the time-eaters when servicing the old series-heater TV sets. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Sep 3 11:30:23 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 10:30:23 -0600 Subject: vac tubes / was Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry In-Reply-To: <48BE5660.12860.2E90F713@cclist.sydex.com> References: <14499.77044.qm@web50507.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <48BE430D.1F93A7F@cs.ubc.ca> <48BE5660.12860.2E90F713@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <48BEBB9F.2010104@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 2 Sep 2008 at 23:55, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > >> Make something using enough tubes and one can wire up the filaments in >> series as they were intended for.. >> > > If you run from line voltage, be sure to hang an NE-2 (with built-in > series resistor) in parallel with each heater so that you can easily > see when one opens up. That used to be one of the time-eaters when > servicing the old series-heater TV sets. > Quit trying to sneek in NE-2 logic on the filaments.. if broken then light bulb! > Cheers, > Chuck > > > From james at jdfogg.com Wed Sep 3 11:52:30 2008 From: james at jdfogg.com (james) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 11:52:30 -0500 Subject: Paper tapes+rubber bands+30 yrs = mess Message-ID: <48bec0ce.c8.5c0.160@jdfogg.com> > I have a large collection of paper tapes that came with a > vintage Altair 680b and Teletype model 33 that I > inherited. I've restored the machines and have started > looking at the tapes. Unfortunately, I have discovered > that the rubber bands that were used to keep the tapes > rolled up have all dissolved into a yucky gooey mess that > is in most cases, stuck to the tapes. I don't have experience with paper tape. From the description it sounds like the oils dissolved the rubber by acting as a solvent to the natural oils in rubber. If this is the case, you could try something that can act as a solvent to the oils, such as acetone. You'll have to test against a sample tape, and don't assume that the acetone or other solvent wont remain in the tape and cause damage in the future. You should try to find a way to copy new paper tapes or transfer the data to some other medium. How much data is in the exposed tape that was damaged? Don't they have leaders with no data on them? Did the damage extend into the layers beneath the surface? I'm assuming that the tapes were rolled up and only the first few inches were damaged. From halarewich at gmail.com Wed Sep 3 11:54:15 2008 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 09:54:15 -0700 Subject: Paper tapes+rubber bands+30 yrs = mess In-Reply-To: <0cef01c90ddf$a6a1a7d0$06fea8c0@portajara> References: <20080903141249.GA15792@n0jcf.net> <0cef01c90ddf$a6a1a7d0$06fea8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <6d6501090809030954i28d89f05h5818bb68e2bc63f7@mail.gmail.com> helo translated Benzina=gasoline On 9/3/08, Alexandre Souza wrote: > > Has anyone dealt with this kind of cleanup before? What are my best >> options for solvents to get rid of what's left of the rubber without >> damaging the tapes too much more? >> > > Chris, I'm pretty sure you can clean (very carefully with a picker and a > swab) these tapes with "Benzina". I don't know how it is called in English. > Maybe "white spirits" or something like that. It dissolves rubber (even very > old rubber) and cleans the paper without attacking the paper fibers. But be > VERY careful. It is toxic. > > Greetz from Brazil > Alexandre > > PS: Now that is something I never tried to make - a paper reader. Must be > a fun weekend project :oD > > From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 3 11:56:41 2008 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 09:56:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: vac tubes / was Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry In-Reply-To: <200809030624.m836NeVm094893@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <212176.32682.qm@web50504.mail.re2.yahoo.com> William Donzelli wrote: > > I've got several homemade variable DC supplies, > but they are all limited to 1.5A output which would be > exceeded with just three 5BK7A filaments @ 600mA each. > > An old filament transformer would solve all your problems > in this area. Not expensive. Can't get much cheaper than effectively free for a well regulated, high current DC power supply using a modified PC power supply that isn't otherwise being used. Plus, the idea of using tubes with 5V filaments instead of 6.3/12.6V reduces the competition with typical audio tube customers and makes the use of a high-current 5VDC supply possible. For the homebrew 1.5A adjustable DC supplies, I use LM317HV based units plugged into a homebrew chassis where I've mounted a range of three different inexpensive, surplus, multi-secondary transformers with output voltages ranging from 70VCT to 12.6VCT. The chassis has binding posts for each secondary and I just plug the banana plugs for the various inexpensive LM317HV adjustable DC supplies into whatever AC outputs most closely match the DC voltages I need at the time in order to reduce the power dissipation requirements of the LM317HVs. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 3 11:59:37 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 09:59:37 -0700 Subject: Paper tapes+rubber bands+30 yrs = mess In-Reply-To: <0cef01c90ddf$a6a1a7d0$06fea8c0@portajara> References: <20080903141249.GA15792@n0jcf.net>, <0cef01c90ddf$a6a1a7d0$06fea8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <48BE6009.7478.2EB6B799@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Sep 2008 at 13:09, Alexandre Souza wrote: > Chris, I'm pretty sure you can clean (very carefully with a picker and a > swab) these tapes with "Benzina". I don't know how it is called in English. > Maybe "white spirits" or something like that. It dissolves rubber (even very > old rubber) and cleans the paper without attacking the paper fibers. But be > VERY careful. It is toxic. I think you're referring to benzine (*not* benzene) or petroleum ether (which isn't an ether), sometimes also called naphtha or mineral spirits (less exact names). Yes, that should work. If you can't obtain it easily, perhaps contact cement thinner might do the job. It appears to be a mixture of MEK, toluol and petroleum ether. Cheers, Chuck From sellam at vintagetech.com Wed Sep 3 12:04:17 2008 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 10:04:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need cc:Mail Automatic Directory Exchange Release 2 ($$$) Message-ID: I have a new bounty out. I am looking for cc:Mail Automatic Directory Exchange Release 2, specifically I need the Administrator's Guide. If you have this then please contact me for details. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Sep 3 13:16:26 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 10:16:26 -0800 Subject: ENIAC vs. ENIAC-on-a-Chip IC implementation References: <20080903113223.k1dey92zkk48ggc0@webmail.domainplanet.at> Message-ID: <48BED47A.81523E39@cs.ubc.ca> DI Gerhard Kreuzer wrote: > > Hi William, > > thanks a lot. I found the book noted at the page of Jan van der > Spiegeln, who did the project years ago. He tell me the ISBN, but I > will see, whats Google offer me. I have yet to be able to run it, but there is a simulation online at: http://page.mi.fu-berlin.de/zoppke/D/index.html Under 'Simulation' there are some documentation links including http://page.mi.fu-berlin.de/zoppke/D/doc/ENIACsim.pdf which gives a little more user-level detail of how the ENIAC functioned and was programmed (still not enough though). I'd still like to make up some web pages with a proper machine definition. One of the issues with making a sim is whether one wants to start from a machine definition and create your own logic, or do the logic as derived as closely as possible from the original schematic, although given the nature of the ENIAC that distinction probably isn't as great as it is for more typical processors. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Sep 3 12:26:37 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 10:26:37 -0700 Subject: ENIAC vs. ENIAC-on-a-Chip IC implementation Message-ID: <48BEC8CD.80507@bitsavers.org> > I'd still like to make up some web pages with a proper machine definition. Getting the 1946 documentation set would be a good start. CHM had the first volume, which had a partial transcription on the chip web site which I've scanned and put up under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/univOfPennsylvania/eniac The University of Pennsylvania archives probably have at least one set of manuals. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 3 12:25:29 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 10:25:29 -0700 Subject: vac tubes / was Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry In-Reply-To: <212176.32682.qm@web50504.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <200809030624.m836NeVm094893@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <212176.32682.qm@web50504.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48BE6619.21873.2ECE666A@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Sep 2008 at 9:56, William Blair wrote: > Can't get much cheaper than effectively free for a well regulated, > high current DC power supply using a modified PC power supply that > isn't otherwise being used. Plus, the idea of using tubes with 5V > filaments instead of 6.3/12.6V reduces the competition with typical > audio tube customers and makes the use of a high-current 5VDC supply > possible. For digital circuits (I assume that's what we're still discussing), why is a DC heater supply necessary? If you do decide to use a regulated DC supply with overcurrent protection, keep in mind that cold heater inrush current can be substantially greater than the nominal heater current rating. Cheers, Chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Sep 3 13:08:15 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 11:08:15 -0700 Subject: Slightly OT: SR-52 Service manual In-Reply-To: <04E558C2C05746F99FEB4B88AF30F21C@xp1800> References: <04E558C2C05746F99FEB4B88AF30F21C@xp1800> Message-ID: <48BED28F.5040602@brouhaha.com> Rik Bos wrote: > I'm bussy restoring a Ti SR-52 and having some trouble with the card reader [...] > So I'm searching for a schematic diagram or service manual. I had a paper copy around 1979, which wasn't too hard to get at the time. IIRC, I just called TI's Lubbock, TX office and asked for a copy, and they sent it to me. I doubt that they have them any more, but if they were easily obtained (unlike HP calculator service manuals), there are probably people out there that still have copies. The TI-58/59 service manual is more commonly available. It's possible that the card reader is similar enough for that manual to be useful to you. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Sep 3 13:12:50 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 11:12:50 -0700 Subject: Tube machine restoration (was Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry Computer logic circuits?) In-Reply-To: <200809030816.28040.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <48BDF153.1010104@bitsavers.org> <200809030816.28040.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <48BED3A2.40102@brouhaha.com> Lyle Bickley wrote: > The CHM Restoration Committee, some CHM PDP-1/IBM 1620 Restoration > Team Members (including myself) have a G-15 in the "short list" in > their thinking regarding potential restorations. [...] > If we obtained an additional G-15 from another source, that would > certainly be a factor in making such a decision. If I recall correctly, the mounting frame of CHM's G-15 is seriously warped, perhaps as the result of the machine having been dropped at some point. That doesn't bode well for getting the drum working. Getting an additional G-15 may not just be a factor, but a requirement. Eric From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 3 13:11:22 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 19:11:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: infocom on other systems In-Reply-To: <48BDBF6A.80504@brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Sep 2, 8 03:34:18 pm Message-ID: > I know one person who has an original Infocom game for the PDP-11 on an Somewhere I have at least one Infocom game on a 3.5" floppy for the HP150. I think it runs on the HP110 too. I forget which game(s) I have, but can proably be persuaded to dig them out if anyone cares... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 3 13:12:29 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 19:12:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT: Needed information since the list is slow In-Reply-To: <20080902142443.U39432@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Sep 2, 8 02:25:09 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > My PET is enclosed in a mostly steel case. Do I still need this? > > Is your cat named "Faraday"? No, and he's not in a cage, Faraday or otherwise, either. I assume you noticed that 'PET' was entirely in upper case... -tony From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Wed Sep 3 13:44:19 2008 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 20:44:19 +0200 Subject: Slightly OT: SR-52 Service manual In-Reply-To: <48BED28F.5040602@brouhaha.com> References: <04E558C2C05746F99FEB4B88AF30F21C@xp1800> <48BED28F.5040602@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <7DC29532C7B5416BAC116EDA3ED34C7D@xp1800> Eric, The Ti-59 cardreader does not use a optical detector. The SR-52 uses a switch to detect the card insertion and after that the 'opto' for card edge detection and write protection. I suspect there should be some delay in the motor drive circuitry , to ensure that card is pulled out far enough, to get it free from the capstand. But I need the schema to find this out. So ik some one has a copy or a scan of it, I would be very happy. -Rik -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Eric Smith Verzonden: woensdag 3 september 2008 20:08 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: Slightly OT: SR-52 Service manual Rik Bos wrote: > I'm bussy restoring a Ti SR-52 and having some trouble with the card > reader [...] > So I'm searching for a schematic diagram or service manual. I had a paper copy around 1979, which wasn't too hard to get at the time. IIRC, I just called TI's Lubbock, TX office and asked for a copy, and they sent it to me. I doubt that they have them any more, but if they were easily obtained (unlike HP calculator service manuals), there are probably people out there that still have copies. The TI-58/59 service manual is more commonly available. It's possible that the card reader is similar enough for that manual to be useful to you. Eric From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 3 13:20:45 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 19:20:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: Computer Automation library floppy images In-Reply-To: <48BDF25D.4020809@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Sep 2, 8 07:11:41 pm Message-ID: > > Al Kossow wrote: > > > There are also some 5" floppies, which i'll work on reading this week. > > > > no joy, the 5" are soft sectored but can't be read with imagedisk. Do you even know if they're can be read by a PC disc controller? They might be GCR rather than FM or MFM. I don't suppose schematics of the original disk controller still exist, they would give you a big clue. -tony From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Sep 3 13:56:52 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 14:56:52 -0400 Subject: vac tubes / was Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry In-Reply-To: <212176.32682.qm@web50504.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <200809030624.m836NeVm094893@dewey.classiccmp.org> <212176.32682.qm@web50504.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > Can't get much cheaper than effectively free for a well regulated, high current DC power supply using a modified PC power supply that isn't otherwise being used. Plus, the idea of using tubes with 5V filaments instead of 6.3/12.6V reduces the competition with typical audio tube customers and makes the use of a high-current 5VDC supply possible. For a few bucks, you could get a 5 Volt transformer with a decent current rating of 10 Amps, and not have to worry about the number of tubes you need to feed for a while. Filament transformers come in many voltages other than 6.3. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Sep 3 14:02:06 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 15:02:06 -0400 Subject: Tube machine restoration (was Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry Computer logic circuits?) In-Reply-To: <48BED3A2.40102@brouhaha.com> References: <48BDF153.1010104@bitsavers.org> <200809030816.28040.lbickley@bickleywest.com> <48BED3A2.40102@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > If I recall correctly, the mounting frame of CHM's G-15 is seriously warped, > perhaps as the result of the machine having been dropped at some point. > That doesn't bode well for getting the drum working. Getting an additional > G-15 may not just be a factor, but a requirement. I think the drum is shockmounted? I can not remember. Still, a hard landing... -- Will From bpope at wordstock.com Wed Sep 3 14:23:03 2008 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 15:23:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: Needed information since the list is slow In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20080903192303.F023856F4F@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Tony Duell > > > > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > My PET is enclosed in a mostly steel case. Do I still need this? > > > > Is your cat named "Faraday"? > > No, and he's not in a cage, Faraday or otherwise, either. > > I assume you noticed that 'PET' was entirely in upper case... > :-) Is it okay to say that I have more PETs then cats? Cheers, Bryan From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Sep 3 15:45:37 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 12:45:37 -0800 Subject: vac tubes / was Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry References: <200809030624.m836NeVm094893@dewey.classiccmp.org> <212176.32682.qm@web50504.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48BEF771.E0BFE18@cs.ubc.ca> William Donzelli wrote: > > Can't get much cheaper than effectively free for a well regulated, high current DC power supply using a modified PC power supply that isn't otherwise being used. Plus, the idea of using tubes with 5V filaments instead of 6.3/12.6V reduces the competition with typical audio tube customers and makes the use of a high-current 5VDC supply possible. > > For a few bucks, you could get a 5 Volt transformer with a decent > current rating of 10 Amps, and not have to worry about the number of > tubes you need to feed for a while. > > Filament transformers come in many voltages other than 6.3. Ya, it would be more authentic but the filament supply would then weigh 20 lbs instead of 2. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 3 15:22:31 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 13:22:31 -0700 Subject: vac tubes / was Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry In-Reply-To: <48BEF771.E0BFE18@cs.ubc.ca> References: <200809030624.m836NeVm094893@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <48BEF771.E0BFE18@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <48BE8F97.20188.2F707940@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Sep 2008 at 12:45, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Ya, it would be more authentic but the filament supply would then weigh 20 lbs > instead of 2. Sure, but a nice beefy transformer will give you many decades of service without problems. High-ampere 5V transformers shouldn't be uncommon, as many 5v rectifier filaments (such as the 5U4) were pretty hungry (the 5U4 is rated at 3 amps). Cheers, Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Sep 3 16:06:14 2008 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 22:06:14 +0100 Subject: HOWTO: Connecting an IBM LPFK to a USB port Message-ID: <48BEFC46.6090305@philpem.me.uk> Hi guys, I've just finished testing my fully assembled (i.e. intended-to-be-permanent) LPFK-to-USB cable. It uses an FTDI TTL-232R USB-to-RS232/TTL converter, a MAX232 level translator, five 0.1uF 0805-size surface-mount ceramic capacitors, a BC547 transistor (well, actually the SMD variant, the BC857), a 4k7 0805 SMD resistor, an 8-pin Mini-DIN plug... and a plastic Maxim/Dallas Semiconductor antistatic box. I did end up using a bit of copper tape and superglue as well (to hold the 4k7 and BC857 on the body of the MAX232)... First problem: if the connector is assembled as recommended by the manufacturer, it's too big to fit in the LPFK's rather small connector port. The solution to this is simple -- ditch the thick (2mm on my connector) rubberised outer cover and use heatshrink instead. As long as you're quick, the plastic inner support won't melt, but assembly is pretty much one-way. It's not easy to assemble, fairly easy to cut apart again, but $DEITY help you when you need to put it back together again. Six wires to desolder, *then* you can put the heatshrink back on. Thankfully properly-soldered mini-DIN connectors are usually quite reliable... Next problem is that the LPFK speaks 12V RS232, while the TTL-232R uses TTL-form inverted RS232. Another easy solution -- put a MAX232 between the LPFK and the TTL-232R to bump the levels. I also added a transistor and a 4k7 resistor to toggle the LPFK's reset line from the serial port's RTS output. That means that when the PC is idle, the LPFK is held in reset, and when the port is open the LPFK is released from reset. Advantage being that if you manage to crash the LPFK, you just need to toggle RTS and wait a few seconds for the LPFK to restart. It does tend to blink a few times when the USB drivers pick up the cable, but only on Windows. Maybe it's the software for my mobile phone trying to pick up a serial cable (despite the fact my phone connects over USB.. natch). I couldn't find any small plastic cases in my junk box, so I used an empty Maxim/Dallas antistatic plastic box. As in, the little clear plastic boxes that hold the parts they send out as free samples. These are small, relatively tough (though a bit thin) and ideal for small projects. Speaking frankly, I'd much rather have unclipped a ferrite EMI bead from a USB cable and used that, but the only ones I could find were moulded onto the cable. Shame, they were a perfect fit. Lastly, I had to reprogram the TTL-232's descriptor table so it claimed the full 500mA of current from the PC. Unplugging the cable from the LPFK will allow the TTL-232 (and MAX232) to start up and enumerate, then you can use FTDI's MProg tool to reprogram the power consumption descriptor (and the description strings too, if you like). Some USB chipsets / motherboards / etc. are more fussy about power consumption than others. 99.5% of the machines I've used seem to ignore the USB port's power consumption unless you short it out, in which case the machine tends to reboot in short order... I've also got an LPFK driver library that works with the USB cable, but should also work with a standard serial cable. You can grab the source code from , and it should work on any OS that supports POSIX serial communications (that would be Linux, OSX, the BSDs and most of the other Unices, and possibly QNX and Slowlaris - sorry, Solaris - as well). Porting to Win32 is left as an exercise to the reader. The library can do LED setting in both cached and uncached modes (translation: you can change one LED's state and have the LPFK update immediately, or change a dozen at the same time). Key processing is done with an lpfk_read() function that returns LPFK_E_NO_KEY if no keys have been pressed recently, or alternatively returns the first key code in the serial FIFO buffer. Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Sep 3 16:24:51 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 17:24:51 -0400 Subject: vac tubes / was Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry In-Reply-To: <48BEF771.E0BFE18@cs.ubc.ca> References: <200809030624.m836NeVm094893@dewey.classiccmp.org> <212176.32682.qm@web50504.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <48BEF771.E0BFE18@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > Ya, it would be more authentic but the filament supply would then weigh 20 lbs > instead of 2. Or use a smaller transformer. Don't make me break out the Radio Masters. -- Will From tpeters at mixcom.com Wed Sep 3 16:45:05 2008 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 16:45:05 -0500 Subject: HOWTO: Connecting an IBM LPFK to a USB port In-Reply-To: <48BEFC46.6090305@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20080903164410.00c0c4c0@localhost> At 10:06 PM 9/3/2008 +0100, you wrote: Excellent! You seem to have done some great work here. I only have one question: What's a LPFK? -T >Hi guys, > >I've just finished testing my fully assembled (i.e. intended-to-be-permanent) >LPFK-to-USB cable. It uses an FTDI TTL-232R USB-to-RS232/TTL converter, a >MAX232 level translator, five 0.1uF 0805-size surface-mount ceramic ----- 713. [Men] The Ideal Man should talk to us as if we were goddesses, and treat us as if we were children. He should refuse all our serious requests, and gratify every one of our whims... --Oscar Wilde --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Sep 3 17:58:20 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 14:58:20 -0800 Subject: vac tubes / was Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry References: <200809030624.m836NeVm094893@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <48BEF771.E0BFE18@cs.ubc.ca> <48BE8F97.20188.2F707940@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <48BF168D.B31D0ADC@cs.ubc.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 3 Sep 2008 at 12:45, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > > Ya, it would be more authentic but the filament supply would then weigh 20 lbs > > instead of 2. > > Sure, but a nice beefy transformer will give you many decades of > service without problems. High-ampere 5V transformers shouldn't be > uncommon, as many 5v rectifier filaments (such as the 5U4) were > pretty hungry (the 5U4 is rated at 3 amps). William Donzelli wrote: > Or use a smaller transformer. Don't make me break out the Radio Masters. Oh, yes, for example, we do have some variety of such at the radio museum. Transmitters with parallelled 5V fil. rectifiers can be a source of larger ones. Joking aside, and I don't want to speak for William, but I think at this point his project is in the experimental stage .. whatever is at hand will do. On the other hand, for the ABC ASM reconstruction I was working on I was targetting using only period-appropriate components. I'm still debating whether to cheat and use a silicon diode for the C- bias rectifier (it could perhaps have been a selenium) or go to the bother of throwing in another rectifier tube, which will also require the hassle of an additional isolated filament supply. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Sep 3 17:09:19 2008 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 23:09:19 +0100 Subject: HOWTO: Connecting an IBM LPFK to a USB port In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20080903164410.00c0c4c0@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20080903164410.00c0c4c0@localhost> Message-ID: <48BF0B0F.4000808@philpem.me.uk> Tom Peters wrote: > At 10:06 PM 9/3/2008 +0100, you wrote: > Excellent! You seem to have done some great work here. > > I only have one question: > > What's a LPFK? The IBM LPFK, or Lighted Program Function Keyboard, is basically a 32-key keyboard that has an LED under each key. There's a photo and some other info here: Internals are an 8051 CPU, some LSTTL and a MAX232 line driver. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Sep 3 17:11:26 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 18:11:26 -0400 Subject: HOWTO: Connecting an IBM LPFK to a USB port In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20080903164410.00c0c4c0@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20080903164410.00c0c4c0@localhost> Message-ID: <48BF0B8E.1030407@gmail.com> Tom Peters wrote: > At 10:06 PM 9/3/2008 +0100, you wrote: > Excellent! You seem to have done some great work here. > > I only have one question: > > What's a LPFK? An IBM Lighted Programmable-Function Keypad. Peace... Sridhar From tonym at compusource.net Wed Sep 3 17:33:40 2008 From: tonym at compusource.net (tonym) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 22:33:40 GMT Subject: Assist finding EOL / Disc IC socket Message-ID: <200809031833307.SM05660@[63.69.23.239]> If anyone has access to companies that have obsolete electronics and IC parts, I need some Molex 50-39-5288 28-pin IC Carrier, I'd take a few hundred, up to 1000, price dependant. Molex stopped making these about 2004, I think the guy said, and no longer makes IC sockets. I've been going through a few of the online places, but no luck yet. Hopefully someone has some contacts to ask... Many thanks! Tony From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Sep 3 17:43:57 2008 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 18:43:57 -0400 Subject: Assist finding EOL / Disc IC socket In-Reply-To: <200809031833307.SM05660@[63.69.23.239]> References: <200809031833307.SM05660@[63.69.23.239]> Message-ID: <48BF132D.3010400@atarimuseum.com> Try www.netcomponents.com Curt tonym wrote: > If anyone has access to companies that have obsolete electronics and IC parts, I need > some Molex 50-39-5288 28-pin IC Carrier, I'd take a few hundred, up to 1000, price dependant. > > Molex stopped making these about 2004, I think the guy said, and no longer makes IC sockets. > > I've been going through a few of the online places, but no luck yet. > > Hopefully someone has some contacts to ask... > > Many thanks! > > Tony > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.15/1649 - Release Date: 9/3/2008 7:15 AM > > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 3 17:48:07 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 15:48:07 -0700 Subject: vac tubes / was Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry In-Reply-To: <48BF168D.B31D0ADC@cs.ubc.ca> References: <200809030624.m836NeVm094893@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <48BF168D.B31D0ADC@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <48BEB1B7.18434.2FF5C424@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Sep 2008 at 14:58, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On the other hand, for the ABC ASM reconstruction I was working on I > was targetting using only period-appropriate components. I'm still > debating whether to cheat and use a silicon diode for the C- bias > rectifier (it could perhaps have been a selenium) or go to the bother > of throwing in another rectifier tube, which will also require the > hassle of an additional isolated filament supply. In the old days, the most common bias supply in many applications was a simple dry battery (e.g. the 4.5v "C" battery). If you want to use an AC-powered bias supply, there's no particular reason that you need to use a separate filament transformer--use a rectifier with an indirectly-heated cathode (and sufficient heater-to-cathode breakdown voltage). Since bias supplies don't generally supply lots of current, even a small-signal diode, such as a 6AL5 should work fine (heater-cathode max voltage is 330). You could, of course, use selenium or copper-oxide rectifiers--Cougar Electronics (supplies the elevator industry) still makes the selenium jobs (you can't simply drop in a silicon diode in a lot of old equipment without redesigning it). I don't know if any manufacturers of copper-oxide rectifiers still exist. Cheers, Chuck From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Sep 3 18:03:24 2008 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 16:03:24 -0700 Subject: OT: Needed information since the list is slow In-Reply-To: <20080903192303.F023856F4F@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20080903192303.F023856F4F@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 3, 2008 at 12:23 PM, Bryan Pope wrote: > Is it okay to say that I have more PETs then cats? Just don't say it where the cats can hear you. From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Sep 3 18:23:01 2008 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 16:23:01 -0700 Subject: HP200LX (was Re: Free Linux and OpenOffice - even if your email address doesn't) In-Reply-To: <48BC1469.9010503@arachelian.com> References: <200808311856472.SM04100@63.69.23.239> <20080901113428.GB10761@thangorodrim.de> <48BC020A.1000201@arachelian.com> <20080901151634.GC10761@thangorodrim.de> <48BC1469.9010503@arachelian.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Sep 1, 2008 at 9:12 AM, Ray Arachelian wrote: >> Oh, yes, there must be some Solaris 7 & 8 original packages around as >> well ... somewhere in my piles-of-wonderful-stuff ;-) >> > > I've got bunches of Solaris 7, 8, 9 and 2.6 somewhere... but I don't > think any of them are sealed. :-) I installed'em all at various times. Anyone have a copy of the PowerPC version of Solaris 2.5? I've heard about it but never seen it. Anyone know if it's PREP only or if it works on a Mac? From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Sep 3 18:34:50 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 19:34:50 -0400 Subject: HP200LX (was Re: Free Linux and OpenOffice - even if your email address doesn't) In-Reply-To: References: <200808311856472.SM04100@63.69.23.239> <20080901113428.GB10761@thangorodrim.de> <48BC020A.1000201@arachelian.com> <20080901151634.GC10761@thangorodrim.de> <48BC1469.9010503@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <48BF1F1A.6000500@gmail.com> Eric J Korpela wrote: > On Mon, Sep 1, 2008 at 9:12 AM, Ray Arachelian wrote: >>> Oh, yes, there must be some Solaris 7 & 8 original packages around as >>> well ... somewhere in my piles-of-wonderful-stuff ;-) >>> >> I've got bunches of Solaris 7, 8, 9 and 2.6 somewhere... but I don't >> think any of them are sealed. :-) I installed'em all at various times. > > Anyone have a copy of the PowerPC version of Solaris 2.5? I've heard > about it but never seen it. Anyone know if it's PREP only or if it > works on a Mac? I'd love to have that too. And I have PReP machines I can run it on, if necessary. Peace... Sridhar From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Sep 3 19:00:17 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 20:00:17 -0400 Subject: OT: Needed information since the list is slow In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200809032000.17619.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 02 September 2008 14:30, Tony Duell wrote: > > *FOUND READING ON THE NET* > > > > This ultra modern aluminum foil hat will protect your pet from the brain > > scanning rays of the NSA, certain 'auction' websites, fbi.com, and CIA > > satellites that are monitoring their little subversive thoughts. You may > > My PET is enclosed in a mostly steel case. Do I still need this? > > -tony Only over the openings in that steel, like the screen and the keyboard... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Sep 3 19:55:29 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 17:55:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Super Serial Card... Message-ID: I'm in need of a working, complete, Super Serial Card for an Apple IIe that I recently got. If you've got one that you'd like to part with, please contact me off list. I'm also looking for the dip switch settings and 10 pin header pinout for an Epic Technology "2400 Classic II" modem card. It appears to be an internal Smartmodem clone glued to a SSC clone, but I need docs on it.:) Thanks All! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Wed Sep 3 20:14:44 2008 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 18:14:44 -0700 Subject: infocom on other systems In-Reply-To: Message-ID: -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David Griffith Sent: Monday, September 01, 2008 5:56 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: infocom on other systems > Yesterday I unearthed some unopened Infocom games which will go on Ebay > tomorrow afternoon. What caught my eye was a blurb indicating that games > were available for the DECmate, DEC Rainbow, HP 150 and 110, and TI > Professional. I'm especially interested in the DECmate version. Does > anyone know anything more about these obscure ports of Infocom games? I don't know if it qualifies as obscure, but I just got a copy of Hitchhiker's Guide for the Kaypro. . . Disk only, the manual that came with it is for Zork I. :) ----- Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum - The Vintage Computer Forums marketplace.vintage-computer.com - The Vintage Computer and Gaming Marketplace From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Sep 3 20:20:46 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 19:20:46 -0600 Subject: infocom on other systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48BF37EE.2080008@jetnet.ab.ca> Erik Klein wrote: > I don't know if it qualifies as obscure, but I just got a copy of > Hitchhiker's Guide for the Kaypro. . . Disk only, the manual that came > with it is for Zork I. :) > > Well the the only real thing to know is you need to "Have a British accent" when playing the game. I suspect it follows the book closely. PS: I could never when at those games since I never knew or could spell the words needed by the input parser. From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Wed Sep 3 21:34:47 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 02:34:47 +0000 Subject: infocom on other systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080904023447.GE30743@usap.gov> On Wed, Sep 03, 2008 at 06:14:44PM -0700, Erik Klein wrote: > > Does anyone know anything more about these obscure ports of Infocom games? > > I don't know if it qualifies as obscure, but I just got a copy of > Hitchhiker's Guide for the Kaypro. . . Disk only, the manual that came > with it is for Zork I. :) I don't have original disks, but on one of the many sites with CP/M images and apps to download, I found a zip file with a few of the older games in it, along with the source for the CP/M front-end to customise terminal strings. There wasn't one for vt100, so I whipped one up. It works great on a real terminal under altairz80 from simh. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 4-Sep-2008 at 02:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -33.7 F (-36.5 C) Windchill -71.9 F (-57.7 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 26.5 kts Grid 31 Barometer 679.3 mb (10655 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 3 22:12:14 2008 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 20:12:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: vac tubes / was Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry In-Reply-To: <200809040059.m840wWo9008152@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <653106.43715.qm@web50509.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Can't get much cheaper than effectively free for a well regulated, > > high current DC power supply using a modified PC power supply that > > isn't otherwise being used. Plus, the idea of using tubes with 5V > > filaments instead of 6.3/12.6V reduces the competition with typical > > audio tube customers and makes the use of a high-current 5VDC > > supply possible. > > For digital circuits (I assume that's what we're > still discussing), why is a DC heater supply necessary? Because I don't want to hear 60Hz hum when I plug my headphones into the flip-flop output. ;-) Seriously, you are absolutely correct that AC could be used for the filaments in this case, but the PC power supply is being built for multiple uses and will just happen to be there for these tube logic experiments. I planned to mod the PC power supply well before coming up with this low voltage tube logic project (which may or may not succeed). My goal is also to provide a commonly available, cheap and multi-use power source for the tubes that could be duplicated by others if I succeed in this and decide to put the tube logic project on a web page. Like me, rather than just building a supply that would be used only with the tube project, they would be building a very cheap, high-current DC power supply useful for other purposes. > If you do decide to use a regulated DC supply with > overcurrent protection, keep in mind that cold heater inrush current > can be substantially greater than the nominal heater current > rating. Right now, my goal is to build just an astable multivibrator clocking a 4-bit counter. To show the alternating state of the multivibrator, I'll light the tube from below through the hole in the center of the socket with a two-color LED and the states of the counter tubes will be indicated by lighting them from below with a red or blue LED. I've got the special effects visualized, but that's the really easy part. From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 3 22:15:33 2008 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 20:15:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: vac tubes / was Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry In-Reply-To: <200809040059.m840wWo9008152@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <634838.30087.qm@web50507.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > > Can't get much cheaper than effectively free for a > well regulated, high current DC power supply using a > modified PC power supply that isn't otherwise being > used. Plus, the idea of using tubes with 5V filaments > instead of 6.3/12.6V reduces the competition with typical > audio tube customers and makes the use of a high-current > 5VDC supply possible. > > For a few bucks, you could get a 5 Volt transformer with a > decent > current rating of 10 Amps, and not have to worry about the > number of > tubes you need to feed for a while. > > Filament transformers come in many voltages other than 6.3. I'm just working with what I have on hand. And I plan to use the PC power supply for other purposes, too. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Sep 3 22:21:15 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 21:21:15 -0600 Subject: vac tubes / was Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry In-Reply-To: <653106.43715.qm@web50509.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <653106.43715.qm@web50509.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48BF542B.2090207@jetnet.ab.ca> William Blair wrote: > Right now, my goal is to build just an astable multivibrator clocking a 4-bit counter. To show the alternating state of the multivibrator, I'll light the tube from below through the hole in the center of the socket with a two-color LED and the states of the counter tubes will be indicated by lighting them from below with a red or blue LED. I've got the special effects visualized, but that's the really easy part. > Would not a green & red Ne-2 would fit the mood better. If you have the HV why not go nixe tube? From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 3 22:23:27 2008 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 20:23:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: vac tubes / was Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry In-Reply-To: <200809040059.m840wWo9008152@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <598737.98439.qm@web50510.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Brent Hilpert wrote: > Joking aside, and I don't want to speak for William, > but I think at this point his project is in the > experimental stage .. whatever is at hand will do. You are right on the money. To be done with what I have on hand as much as possible since my success in this effort is far from guaranteed. Right now, we're not talking about anything more ambitious that a demo circuit using five tubes. From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Sep 3 22:30:26 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 23:30:26 -0400 Subject: vac tubes / was Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry In-Reply-To: <48BF542B.2090207@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <653106.43715.qm@web50509.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <48BF542B.2090207@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200809032330.27035.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 03 September 2008 23:21, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > William Blair wrote: > > Right now, my goal is to build just an astable multivibrator clocking a > > 4-bit counter. To show the alternating state of the multivibrator, I'll > > light the tube from below through the hole in the center of the socket > > with a two-color LED and the states of the counter tubes will be > > indicated by lighting them from below with a red or blue LED. I've got > > the special effects visualized, but that's the really easy part. > > Would not a green & red Ne-2 would fit the mood better. > If you have the HV why not go nixe tube? Given 4-bit binary, how many more tubes do you think it'd take to do the 1-of-10 decoding? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 3 22:32:59 2008 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 20:32:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Basic Principles of Vacuum Tube Logic Circuits In-Reply-To: <200809040059.m840wWo9008152@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <595821.83785.qm@web50502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> After a _lot_ of downloading and reading, I've compiled excerpts from the best tube logic theory technical documents I've found on Bitsavers and uploaded it as a merged document here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/5484436/Basic-Principles-of-Vacuum-Tube-Logic-Circuits I've included two pages on the IBM 650's capacitor memory just because the concept is so cool to me: a tube written, refreshed and read array of 500pF caps. I wish I could find a more detailed description of it. If anyone knows of other documents on Bitsavers or elsewhere that contain quality stuff on the tubular logic topic, please let me know and I'll add excerpts from them. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Sep 3 22:40:03 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 21:40:03 -0600 Subject: vac tubes / was Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry In-Reply-To: <200809032330.27035.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <653106.43715.qm@web50509.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <48BF542B.2090207@jetnet.ab.ca> <200809032330.27035.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <48BF5893.4060006@jetnet.ab.ca> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Wednesday 03 September 2008 23:21, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > >> William Blair wrote: >> >>> Right now, my goal is to build just an astable multivibrator clocking a >>> 4-bit counter. To show the alternating state of the multivibrator, I'll >>> light the tube from below through the hole in the center of the socket >>> with a two-color LED and the states of the counter tubes will be >>> indicated by lighting them from below with a red or blue LED. I've got >>> the special effects visualized, but that's the really easy part. >>> >> Would not a green & red Ne-2 would fit the mood better. >> If you have the HV why not go nixe tube? >> > > Given 4-bit binary, how many more tubes do you think it'd take to do the > I was thinking 4 tubes with "+ -" or 0/1. > 1-of-10 decoding? > > From curt at atarimuseum.com Wed Sep 3 22:41:38 2008 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 23:41:38 -0400 Subject: CDC/VAX tapes and drives In-Reply-To: <18621.36058.441878.359472@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <18621.36058.441878.359472@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <48BF58F2.1040309@atarimuseum.com> I'm going to go out next week to pick up the drives, some racks and such as I'm only about an hour away. I've spoken with the contact there and she indicated that there are no OS, System or application tapes, just their own proprietary data files which they've long since transferred over to PC's as she explained. Curt Paul Koning wrote: >>>>>> "Rich" == Rich Alderson writes: >>>>>> > > Rich> Hi, Erik, We would be interested in this. We can certainly use > Rich> the tape racks and drives; other people's tapes are > Rich> problematic, but a bulk eraser fixes that. > > Eek. > > If those tapes contain things that are worth preserving, that would be > a bad idea. I can't tell from the original note whether "CDC/VAX" > describes the drives, or the tapes, or both. If it describes the > tapes, it may well be that they contain stuff that should be preserved > and hasn't yet been. There's an active CDC community out there that > I'm sure would want to take a look at any tapes before they are sent > to the eraser. > > paul > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.14/1647 - Release Date: 9/2/2008 6:02 AM > > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 4 00:32:13 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 22:32:13 -0700 Subject: Basic Principles of Vacuum Tube Logic Circuits In-Reply-To: <595821.83785.qm@web50502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <200809040059.m840wWo9008152@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <595821.83785.qm@web50502.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48BF106D.29411.395A8E@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Sep 2008 at 20:32, William Blair wrote: > If anyone knows of other documents on Bitsavers or elsewhere that > contain quality stuff on the tubular logic topic, please let me know > and I'll add excerpts from them. I remember when EBAM was a very hot topic and recall seeing a rack with several tubes at CDC ADL sometime around 1975. Here's an article from IEEE COMPUTER magazine about the subject: http://csdl2.computer.org/comp/mags/co/1975/02/01649340.pdf (Caution: BIG PDF FILE, about 8 MB) Hey, it's logic, it's tubes! Cheers, Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Sep 4 01:45:51 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 22:45:51 -0800 Subject: vac tubes / was Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry References: <200809030624.m836NeVm094893@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <48BF168D.B31D0ADC@cs.ubc.ca> <48BEB1B7.18434.2FF5C424@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <48BF841F.D39BCCD7@cs.ubc.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 3 Sep 2008 at 14:58, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > > On the other hand, for the ABC ASM reconstruction I was working on I > > was targetting using only period-appropriate components. I'm still > > debating whether to cheat and use a silicon diode for the C- bias > > rectifier (it could perhaps have been a selenium) or go to the bother > > of throwing in another rectifier tube, which will also require the > > hassle of an additional isolated filament supply. > > In the old days, the most common bias supply in many applications was > a simple dry battery (e.g. the 4.5v "C" battery). If you want to use > an AC-powered bias supply, there's no particular reason that you need > to use a separate filament transformer--use a rectifier with an > indirectly-heated cathode > (and sufficient heater-to-cathode breakdown voltage). ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Well, that was the hitch. I was looking at using a 6X5 (ind. heated) but it was insufficient due to the fact that there is a polarization to the H-C V limits (weird, but it's there, something to do with the oxide formation I'm guessing). > Since bias supplies don't generally supply lots of > current, even a small-signal diode, such as a 6AL5 should work fine > (heater-cathode max voltage is 330). I don't think the 6AL5 was around in 1939/40, but in the same spirit I was considering a 6H6. The problem there (even though the H-C V permits it to be used as a low current C- rect) was that the C- (and B+) for the logic need to be regulated and by the time you account for the extra current for a shunt regulator (gas tube) and some more for a resistor divider, it was on the margins or exceeded what the little guys could handle. It was one of those annoying design problems where every optimisation you try leads to some minor hitch and you have to revert to what seems like an overblown solution. > You could, of course, use selenium or copper-oxide rectifiers--Cougar > Electronics (supplies the elevator industry) still makes the selenium > jobs (you can't simply drop in a silicon diode in a lot of old > equipment without redesigning it). I don't know if any manufacturers > of copper-oxide rectifiers still exist. Didn't know anybody was making them still. I could try scavenging a selenium rect at the radio museum, but the old ones I run across are usually in questionable condition. From evan at snarc.net Thu Sep 4 01:11:45 2008 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 02:11:45 -0400 Subject: VCF East 5.0 schedule and more details posted Message-ID: <009101c90e55$1d100d10$f750f945@evan> Hi all -- More details are posted at http://www.vintage.org/2008/east/. Lectures will be both days from 10:30 AM to (about) 1:30 PM. Saturday, the exhibit hall will be open from (about) 1:30 PM until 6 PM. Sunday it closes at 4:30 PM. A few more exhibits will be posted in the next few days, so keep checking back! - Evan From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 4 01:19:25 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 23:19:25 -0700 Subject: vac tubes / was Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry In-Reply-To: <48BF841F.D39BCCD7@cs.ubc.ca> References: <200809030624.m836NeVm094893@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <48BF841F.D39BCCD7@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <48BF1B7D.688.6492C9@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Sep 2008 at 22:45, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Well, that was the hitch. I was looking at using a 6X5 (ind. heated) > but it was insufficient due to the fact that there is a polarization to > the H-C V limits (weird, but it's there, something to do with the oxide > formation I'm guessing). Well, there are always the gas rectifiers (0Z4) with no need for a heater supply, but generates a lot of RF "hash". Or the line-voltage heater (e.g. 117Z6) variety of rectifier, allowing you to dispense with a filament transformer altogether. Or you could just drop a couple of strips of aluminum into a solution of bicarbonate of soda... > Didn't know anybody was making them still. I could try scavenging a > selenium rect at the radio museum, but the old ones I run across are > usually in questionable condition. ISTR that selenium rectifiers degrade when they're not being used and need to be reformed by operating under a load for a time. Sort of like wet electrolytics. Tony or Will might remember more on the subject. Me, I could never stand the smell of one going south. Cheers, Chuck From quapla at xs4all.nl Thu Sep 4 01:32:43 2008 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 08:32:43 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Slightly OT: SR-52 Service manual Message-ID: <15517.213.169.196.228.1220509963.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Try 'http://www.ti59.com'. Ed > Rik Bos wrote: >> I'm bussy restoring a Ti SR-52 and having some trouble with the card >> reader > [...] >> So I'm searching for a schematic diagram or service manual. > > I had a paper copy around 1979, which wasn't too hard to get at the > time. IIRC, I just called TI's Lubbock, TX office and asked for a copy, > and they sent it to me. I doubt that they have them any more, but if > they were easily obtained (unlike HP calculator service manuals), there > are probably people out there that still have copies. > > The TI-58/59 service manual is more commonly available. It's possible > that the card reader is similar enough for that manual to be useful to > you. > > Eric > From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Sep 4 03:37:28 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon J. C. Pearce) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2008 09:37:28 +0100 Subject: Assist finding EOL / Disc IC socket In-Reply-To: <200809031833307.SM05660@[63.69.23.239]> References: <200809031833307.SM05660@[63.69.23.239]> Message-ID: <1220517448.6651.0.camel@kusanagi> On Wed, 2008-09-03 at 22:33 +0000, tonym wrote: > If anyone has access to companies that have obsolete electronics and IC parts, I need > some Molex 50-39-5288 28-pin IC Carrier, I'd take a few hundred, up to 1000, price dependant. At that kind of volume, it's almost worth getting a good example and having a company mould some up for you. Gordon From lproven at gmail.com Thu Sep 4 06:05:17 2008 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 12:05:17 +0100 Subject: Free kit in London, UK: 5.25" FH SCSI drives, PC-AT case etc. Message-ID: <575131af0809040405p24231af3g98ae92151dd9e298@mail.gmail.com> I am trying to have a clear-out! Anyone need some 5.25" full-size full-height SCSI drives? I have an old 486 Netware server with 3 or 4 in - 1 x 9GB, 2 or 3 ~3GB, I think. There is also a stand-alone JBOD disk cabinet with 7 x ~1.5GB disks + 4 Toshiba caddy-loading CD-ROM drives; all are accessed across 2 x SCSI2 HD connectors on captive drop cables. There is also an original IBM PC-AT case, in IBM tower adaptor, with the original PSU and 3.5" FDD fitted. The motherboard is an MSI thing with a Pentium 133MHz and 128MB of RAM. It also has an Adaptec SCSI card with a Panasonic PD optical drive/CD reader. Finally there is an Elonex WS466 network workstation. This is an ultra-low-profile 486 network workstation (2"*10"*10", 4cm*27cm*27cm). I think it's a 486DX2/66. 2xRS232, 1xParallel, 1xSVGA, 1x10base-T. No internal expansion, no optical drive bay - it's too small. Happy to ship anywhere if you pay the postage. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Sep 4 07:33:51 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 05:33:51 -0700 Subject: vac tubes / was Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry In-Reply-To: <48BF542B.2090207@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <653106.43715.qm@web50509.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <48BF542B.2090207@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca---snip--- > > > Would not a green & red Ne-2 would fit the mood better.> If you have the HV why not go nixe tube?> There is no green Ne-2. You can put a filter on a NE-2 and get a nice red or yellow but not green. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ See how Windows Mobile brings your life together?at home, work, or on the go. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093182mrt/direct/01/ From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Thu Sep 4 08:56:48 2008 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 15:56:48 +0200 Subject: Slightly OT: SR-52 Service manual In-Reply-To: <15517.213.169.196.228.1220509963.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> References: <15517.213.169.196.228.1220509963.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <9F2AF5482D79470191C8592360EFF9D3@xp1800> Ed, It tells you every thing about the Ti-59/58 and mentions the fact that the SR-52 exist to and nothing else. RSKey has the most info because Victor Toth published the SR-52 notes of the PPC. I'm still searching........ -Rik -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Ed Groenenberg Verzonden: donderdag 4 september 2008 8:33 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: Re: Slightly OT: SR-52 Service manual Try 'http://www.ti59.com'. Ed > Rik Bos wrote: >> I'm bussy restoring a Ti SR-52 and having some trouble with the card >> reader > [...] >> So I'm searching for a schematic diagram or service manual. > > I had a paper copy around 1979, which wasn't too hard to get at the > time. IIRC, I just called TI's Lubbock, TX office and asked for a > copy, and they sent it to me. I doubt that they have them any more, > but if they were easily obtained (unlike HP calculator service > manuals), there are probably people out there that still have copies. > > The TI-58/59 service manual is more commonly available. It's possible > that the card reader is similar enough for that manual to be useful to > you. > > Eric > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Sep 4 10:48:24 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2008 09:48:24 -0600 Subject: vac tubes / was Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry In-Reply-To: References: <653106.43715.qm@web50509.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <48BF542B.2090207@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <48C00348.3050705@jetnet.ab.ca> dwight elvey wrote: >> From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca---snip--- >> >>>> Would not a green & red Ne-2 would fit the mood better.> If you have the HV why not go nixe tube?> >>>> > There is no green Ne-2. You can put a filter on a NE-2 and > get a nice red or yellow but not green. > I picked a one with a green filter at Rat Shack a few years ago. I guess blue or white LEDs are the fad now. From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 4 10:54:20 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 11:54:20 -0400 Subject: vac tubes / was Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry In-Reply-To: <48C00348.3050705@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <653106.43715.qm@web50509.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <48BF542B.2090207@jetnet.ab.ca> <48C00348.3050705@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <1F8A97D5-2BEF-4816-8482-A53CB2FECEC3@neurotica.com> You wrote: >>>>> Would not a green & red Ne-2 would fit the mood better.> If you >>>>> have the HV why not go nixe tube?> >> There is no green Ne-2. You can put a filter on a NE-2 and >> get a nice red or yellow but not green. There's the NE-2G, which has some sort of white phosphor coating on the inside of the tube envelope. Their light output is most decidedly green. > I picked a one with a green filter at Rat Shack a few years ago. > I guess blue or white LEDs are the fad now. Was it what I described above? (just curious) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Sep 4 10:59:04 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 11:59:04 -0400 Subject: vac tubes / was Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry In-Reply-To: References: <653106.43715.qm@web50509.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <48BF542B.2090207@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > There is no green Ne-2. You can put a filter on a NE-2 and > get a nice red or yellow but not green. Well, you are technically correct, as "NE-2" was originally a standard - the little orange glowing tube we all know and love, but there were some makers that did make a green version. The inside of the glass bulb was frosted with a green phosphor. -- Will From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Sep 4 11:03:06 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2008 10:03:06 -0600 Subject: vac tubes / was Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry In-Reply-To: <1F8A97D5-2BEF-4816-8482-A53CB2FECEC3@neurotica.com> References: <653106.43715.qm@web50509.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <48BF542B.2090207@jetnet.ab.ca> <48C00348.3050705@jetnet.ab.ca> <1F8A97D5-2BEF-4816-8482-A53CB2FECEC3@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <48C006BA.3020705@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > > Was it what I described above? (just curious) I can't tell as the device is in a project I built. I suspect the device was not a true Ne-2 but that is what marketing sold it as. > -Dave > From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Sep 4 11:26:14 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 12:26:14 -0400 Subject: Available for pickup: IBM hardware, FC SAN Message-ID: <200809041226.15065.pat@computer-refuge.org> I've got access to some IBM H50 systems that are being retired from work, with 4x332MHz processors, 3+GB ram (whatever the max is, 3.25 or 3.5GB I can't remember), some disks, and a 10/100 NIC. The disks have been erased, but they'll run up through AIX 5.3 I think. I'm not going to ship these because of weight, but shipping one or two parts from one is probably doable. Cost will be not unreasonable, but not free. :) I can hold onto them for a week or two probably, but not much longer than that. I'm also try to rid myself of my old 1Gb, MTI Fiberchannel gear. I've got a switch or two, and several 12-disk (1.6") 3U JBODs with 36GB and 50GB 1.6" tall FC-AL 1GB disks. I could pull and ship disks from this if you want them in multiples of 12, but I don't want to try to ship this either. These will probably be around for a month or so before I have to do something I don't want to with them. :( Make offers.. Also, if by any chance, someone is interested in driving here and picking up a frame or 3 of IBM SP nodes (quad 375MHz POWER3-II thin nodes) or an E10k, let me know... These are in West Lafayette, IN, USA (47906). Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Sep 4 12:13:26 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2008 13:13:26 -0400 Subject: vac tubes / was Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry In-Reply-To: References: <653106.43715.qm@web50509.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <48BF542B.2090207@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200809041313.26651.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 04 September 2008 08:33, dwight elvey wrote: > > From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca---snip--- > > > > > > Would not a green & red Ne-2 would fit the mood better.> If you have > > > > the HV why not go nixe tube?> > > There is no green Ne-2. You can put a filter on a NE-2 and > get a nice red or yellow but not green. There is a similar lamp, filled with Argon I think, but it's not called NE-2. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From bear at typewritten.org Thu Sep 4 12:28:00 2008 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 10:28:00 -0700 Subject: HP200LX (was Re: Free Linux and OpenOffice - even if your email address doesn't) In-Reply-To: References: <200808311856472.SM04100@63.69.23.239> <20080901113428.GB10761@thangorodrim.de> <48BC020A.1000201@arachelian.com> <20080901151634.GC10761@thangorodrim.de> <48BC1469.9010503@arachelian.com> Message-ID: On Sep 3, 2008, at 4:23 PM, Eric J Korpela wrote: > Anyone have a copy of the PowerPC version of Solaris 2.5? I've heard > about it but never seen it. Anyone know if it's PREP only or if it > works on a Mac? I have used the PPC version. The HCL is quite limited: IBM: Personal Computer Power Series 830 Personal Computer Power Series 850 ThinkPad Power Series 820 ThinkPad Power Series 850 Motorola: PowerStack RISC PC DT603-66* PowerStack RISC PC DT603-100* PowerStack RISC PC DT604-100 PowerStack RISC PC DT604-133* PowerStack RISC PC MT603-66 PowerStack RISC PC MT603-100* PowerStack RISC PC MT604-100* PowerStack RISC PC MT604-133* PowerStack Series E E603-66P PowerStack Series E E604-100P PowerStack Series E E604-133P* The list of, for example, supported video cards, is even smaller. I didn't have any success booting it on a PowerStack Series E with a PPC 604e processor, either. It did work on an IBM PowerPersonal 7248 ("Carolina"), even though it doesn't appear on the HCL. ok bear From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 4 12:33:05 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2008 10:33:05 -0700 Subject: vac tubes / was Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry In-Reply-To: <200809041313.26651.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <653106.43715.qm@web50509.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, , <200809041313.26651.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <48BFB961.16930.2CD5466@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Sep 2008 at 13:13, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > There is a similar lamp, filled with Argon I think, but it's not called > NE-2. Variations of the simple NE-2 come in a bewildering variety of sizes and colors, including yellow and blue as well as green and white: http://www.lamp-cn.com/english/list.asp?classid=3 Cheers, Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Sep 4 13:50:34 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2008 10:50:34 -0800 Subject: ENIAC vs. ENIAC-on-a-Chip IC implementation References: <48BEC8CD.80507@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <48C02DFA.54CF00DA@cs.ubc.ca> Al Kossow wrote: > > > I'd still like to make up some web pages with a proper machine definition. > > Getting the 1946 documentation set would be a good start. CHM had the first > volume, which had a partial transcription on the chip web site which I've > scanned and put up under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/univOfPennsylvania/eniac Thanks, that's far more info and detail than I've seen anywhere else to date. Looks like it may be most of what one needs for a machine definition, but have to study it more to see if one can derive 'everything' from it. Then the question becomes, with the machine being so abstruse, can one come up with anything much more concise than the manual itself. .. onto the list, too many fun things to do .. From tshoppa at wmata.com Thu Sep 4 12:49:33 2008 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2008 13:49:33 -0400 Subject: vac tubes / was Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry Message-ID: <48BFE76D0200003700037B04@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Roy wrote: >On Wednesday 03 September 2008 23:21, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >> William Blair wrote: >> > Right now, my goal is to build just an astable multivibrator clocking a >> > 4-bit counter. To show the alternating state of the multivibrator, I'll >> > light the tube from below through the hole in the center of the socket >> > with a two-color LED and the states of the counter tubes will be >> > indicated by lighting them from below with a red or blue LED. I've got >> > the special effects visualized, but that's the really easy part. >> >> Would not a green & red Ne-2 would fit the mood better. >> If you have the HV why not go nixe tube? > Given 4-bit binary, how many more tubes do you think it'd take to do the > 1-of-10 decoding? No more tubes, if you're clever enough! Look at the HP AC-4 schematics and manuals; they are very very clever, and I believe that this decoding-with-neon- logic scheme predates HP. Many other 4-tube decimal counter modules from other companies (I have a buttload of Berkeley Nucleonics ones) use the same principle with very slight variations. Using green and red NE-2's is probably out; they have different threshold voltages, although with some good characterization you could probably do it. Not only do I have 40-year-old modules that do this stuff, I've also built it with 6SN7's and modeled it with SPICE. For lowish speed counters (<100kHz) the tolerances do not have to be tight. Requisite AC-4 references: http://www.hparchive.com/Manuals/HP-AC-4A-4B-Manual.pdf http://www.prc68.com/I/HPac4a.shtml Patents named in AC-4 documents, find them at http://www.google.com/patents/ 2,404,047 (1946) 2,410,156 (1946) 2,521,788 (1950) I believe this is the first place where I see the neon decoding scheme 2,538,122 (1951) 2,762,915 (1956) Tim. From bbrown at harpercollege.edu Thu Sep 4 14:23:00 2008 From: bbrown at harpercollege.edu (Bob Brown) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 14:23:00 -0500 Subject: Peoria, IL - Anyone interested in a S/36? (5363, the smaller one) In-Reply-To: References: <48BC648F.4030206@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E023F83D7@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Is this still available? What are the dimensions? (to see if it might fit in the back of a minivan...which would also be holding 6 people)? thanks. -Bob bbrown at harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR Harper Community College ## ## ## Supervisor of Operations Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Daniel Seagraves Sent: Monday, September 01, 2008 5:36 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Peoria, IL - Anyone interested in a S/36? (5363, the smaller one) I have a 5363 that I'm not going to do anything with for awhile. I'm not going to pitch it or anything like that, I just wondered if someone wanted to do something more productive than holding up monitors with it. No money, you just have to come here (Peoria, IL) and get it. or bribe me enough to ship it. I have two after-market terminals for it, at least one of which works - They're 525something-compatible (multisession? I don't remember) twinax devices that provide a system printer via a parallel port, but you have to supply the printer because I don't want to give mine up. The machine worked the last time I powered it on, which was about a year ago. If anyone is interested, I will try to IPL it before you come here to make sure it still works. I have manuals for it as well, but I would have to dig those out, so I don't know which ones I have. As for software, this one has a (synchronous?) serial controller and was a (SNA?) network node, so it has the software for those, and I think it has BASIC. It ran someone's business at some point before I got it, I think it was a landscaping supply business. The display panel on the front got cosmetically damaged by one of our students when I had it at work - A gash was cut into the plastic under the numbers. It works fine though. I don't have the key, but the key switch is in the normal position. I may or may not have rewired normal to be "service", I can't remember. Whatever position it's in, you're allowed to IPL. Again, it's not getting pitched or anything, it's just that I'm not going to do anything with it for awhile, if ever. It's kinda wasteful to just have it sitting there. For those who don't know, a 5363 is a large-ish tower case with EDSI disks and twinax peripherals. It's somewhat large and heavy, so shipping it wouldn't be cheap. It can be transported in an average car and carried by one reasonably strong person or two average people. It runs on normal wall power. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 4 13:44:14 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 19:44:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: vac tubes / was Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry In-Reply-To: <48BEF771.E0BFE18@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Sep 3, 8 12:45:37 pm Message-ID: > > For a few bucks, you could get a 5 Volt transformer with a decent > > current rating of 10 Amps, and not have to worry about the number of > > tubes you need to feed for a while. > > > > Filament transformers come in many voltages other than 6.3. > > Ya, it would be more authentic but the filament supply would then weigh 20 lbs > instead of 2. And why is this a problem? It's hardly going to be a portable device, is it? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 4 14:00:40 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 20:00:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: vac tubes / was Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry In-Reply-To: from "dwight elvey" at Sep 4, 8 05:33:51 am Message-ID: > > > > Would not a green & red Ne-2 would fit the mood better.> If you have = > the HV why not go nixe tube?>=20 > There is no green Ne-2. You can put a filter on a NE-2 and > get a nice red or yellow but not green. Maybe not strictly an NE2, but there are green and blue neons avaiable. They have a phosphor coating on the inside of the glass, and I _think_ the gas inside is still neon (I see to remember seeing the classic orange glow trhough the glass around the leadout wires). -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 4 15:09:10 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 16:09:10 -0400 Subject: vac tubes / was Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8CBD4680-2728-4D82-86F3-DC29205981E5@neurotica.com> On Sep 4, 2008, at 3:00 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > Maybe not strictly an NE2, but there are green and blue neons > avaiable. > They have a phosphor coating on the inside of the glass, and I _think_ > the gas inside is still neon (I see to remember seeing the classic > orange > glow trhough the glass around the leadout wires). Oooh, I've never seen a blue one. The green ones were even available from Radio Shack on this side of the pond, but never the blue ones, as far as I can recall. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Sep 4 16:16:36 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 17:16:36 -0400 Subject: vac tubes / was Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200809041716.37049.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 04 September 2008, Tony Duell wrote: > > > For a few bucks, you could get a 5 Volt transformer with a decent > > > current rating of 10 Amps, and not have to worry about the number > > > of tubes you need to feed for a while. > > > > > > Filament transformers come in many voltages other than 6.3. > > > > Ya, it would be more authentic but the filament supply would then > > weigh 20 lbs instead of 2. > > And why is this a problem? It's hardly going to be a portable device, > is it? Tony, your reasoning sounds like what IBM uses to decide how much something should weigh. They're about the only company I know of that takes a 1900lb rack of machines, and then puts another 200lbs of steel plates on the bottom to add weight. (IBM SP frames) Now that I think about it, I'm surprised that I don't yet have a bad back thanks to my IBM gear. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Thu Sep 4 18:28:28 2008 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 18:28:28 -0500 Subject: Peoria, IL - Anyone interested in a S/36? (5363, the smaller one) In-Reply-To: <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E023F83D7@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> References: <48BC648F.4030206@jetnet.ab.ca> <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E023F83D7@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> Message-ID: <05ec9cb6321258a2816c4dbb1710a275@lunar-tokyo.net> One other person asked the dimensions but never said anything beyond that. It's about 14" wide, 25" tall, and 27" long. The terminals are about the size of a normal CRT monitor. It weighs a fair amount. On Sep 4, 2008, at 2:23 PM, Bob Brown wrote: > Is this still available? > What are the dimensions? (to see if it might fit in the back of a > minivan...which would also be holding 6 people)? > thanks. > -Bob > > > bbrown at harpercollege.edu #### #### Bob Brown - KB9LFR > Harper Community College ## ## ## Supervisor of Operations > Palatine IL USA #### #### Saved by grace > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Daniel Seagraves > Sent: Monday, September 01, 2008 5:36 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Peoria, IL - Anyone interested in a S/36? (5363, the smaller > one) > > I have a 5363 that I'm not going to do anything with for awhile. I'm > not > going to pitch it or anything like that, I just wondered if someone > wanted to do something more productive than holding up monitors with > it. > No money, you just have to come here (Peoria, IL) and get it. or bribe > me enough to ship it. I have two after-market terminals for it, at > least > one of which works - They're 525something-compatible (multisession? I > don't remember) twinax devices that provide a system printer via a > parallel port, but you have to supply the printer because I don't want > to give mine up. The machine worked the last time I powered it on, > which > was about a year ago. If anyone is interested, I will try to IPL it > before you come here to make sure it still works. I have manuals for it > as well, but I would have to dig those out, so I don't know which ones > I > have. As for software, this one has a > (synchronous?) serial controller and was a (SNA?) network node, so it > has the software for those, and I think it has BASIC. It ran someone's > business at some point before I got it, I think it was a landscaping > supply business. > > The display panel on the front got cosmetically damaged by one of our > students when I had it at work - A gash was cut into the plastic under > the numbers. It works fine though. I don't have the key, but the key > switch is in the normal position. I may or may not have rewired normal > to be "service", I can't remember. Whatever position it's in, you're > allowed to IPL. > > Again, it's not getting pitched or anything, it's just that I'm not > going to do anything with it for awhile, if ever. It's kinda wasteful > to > just have it sitting there. > > For those who don't know, a 5363 is a large-ish tower case with EDSI > disks and twinax peripherals. It's somewhat large and heavy, so > shipping > it wouldn't be cheap. It can be transported in an average car and > carried by one reasonably strong person or two average people. It runs > on normal wall power. > From rborsuk at colourfull.com Thu Sep 4 20:56:11 2008 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 21:56:11 -0400 Subject: DG Aviion Message-ID: Hi All, I'm looking for someone with a Aviion 88k box they would like to get rid of ($$ or trade). I have over 2 dozen hard drives loaded with software that I would like to archive before I re-commission the drives. Please drop me a line off list. Thanks Rob Rob Borsuk email: rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations Web: http://www.colourfull.com From tpeters at mixcom.com Thu Sep 4 21:15:39 2008 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Thu, 04 Sep 2008 21:15:39 -0500 Subject: DG Aviion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20080904211428.039e97f0@localhost> Sorry, you can't have ours-- it's still in active use!! We use it every day to run (what else) COBOL programs. Scores of them. And dozens of scripts. /usr/local/opbin indeed! At 09:56 PM 9/4/2008 -0400, you wrote: >Hi All, > I'm looking for someone with a Aviion 88k box they would like to > get >rid of ($$ or trade). I have over 2 dozen hard drives loaded with >software that I would like to archive before I re-commission the >drives. Please drop me a line off list. > >Thanks >Rob > > > > >Rob Borsuk >email: rborsuk at colourfull.com >Colourfull Creations >Web: http://www.colourfull.com ----- 950. WebSite [ 'web-sIt ] 1. Subset of the human ego native exclusively to the Internet. 2. Archaic form of Blogs, from the days when only skilled developers could use valuable bandwidth to rank their favorite Star Trek episodes. --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From rborsuk at colourfull.com Thu Sep 4 21:34:41 2008 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 22:34:41 -0400 Subject: DG Aviion In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20080904211428.039e97f0@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20080904211428.039e97f0@localhost> Message-ID: <77569C0C-A76C-4251-8C59-21DBF216C3E1@colourfull.com> I have a nice SCO box running AcuCobol I would be willing to trade you :) Rob On Sep 4, 2008, at 10:15 PM, Tom Peters wrote: > Sorry, you can't have ours-- it's still in active use!! We use it > every day to run (what else) COBOL programs. Scores of them. And > dozens of scripts. /usr/local/opbin indeed! Rob Borsuk email: rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations Web: http://www.colourfull.com From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Sep 4 23:31:36 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 23:31:36 -0500 Subject: Peoria, IL - Anyone interested in a S/36? (5363, the smaller one) In-Reply-To: <05ec9cb6321258a2816c4dbb1710a275@lunar-tokyo.net> References: <48BC648F.4030206@jetnet.ab.ca> <3E7B329687F1C541A9F1251B3A2A201E023F83D7@admexchs1.admdom.harpercollege.edu> <05ec9cb6321258a2816c4dbb1710a275@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: <51ea77730809042131l6fdb1df9r2eebda76ae384d1e@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Sep 4, 2008 at 6:28 PM, Daniel Seagraves wrote: > One other person asked the dimensions but never said anything beyond that. > It's about 14" wide, 25" tall, and 27" long. The terminals are about the > size of a normal CRT monitor. > It weighs a fair amount. Yep that was me :) Still wavering on whether I need another mid-sized beastie around the house. And now that I see that someone else local may take it, thus relieving me of the decision, I may let fate take its course... From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri Sep 5 06:19:33 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon J. C. Pearce) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2008 12:19:33 +0100 Subject: vac tubes / was Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry In-Reply-To: <200809041716.37049.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200809041716.37049.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <1220613573.7798.0.camel@kusanagi> On Thu, 2008-09-04 at 17:16 -0400, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Thursday 04 September 2008, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > For a few bucks, you could get a 5 Volt transformer with a decent > > > > current rating of 10 Amps, and not have to worry about the number > > > > of tubes you need to feed for a while. > > > > > > > > Filament transformers come in many voltages other than 6.3. > > > > > > Ya, it would be more authentic but the filament supply would then > > > weigh 20 lbs instead of 2. > > > > And why is this a problem? It's hardly going to be a portable device, > > is it? > > Tony, your reasoning sounds like what IBM uses to decide how much > something should weigh. > > They're about the only company I know of that takes a 1900lb rack of > machines, and then puts another 200lbs of steel plates on the bottom to > add weight. (IBM SP frames) > > Now that I think about it, I'm surprised that I don't yet have a bad > back thanks to my IBM gear. Of course, having 100kg of ballast in the bottom does give you the rather handy feature of making the rack not tip over and kill you when you pull a machine at the top... Gordon From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Fri Sep 5 07:00:21 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 12:00:21 +0000 Subject: vac tubes / was Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry In-Reply-To: <1220613573.7798.0.camel@kusanagi> References: <200809041716.37049.pat@computer-refuge.org> <1220613573.7798.0.camel@kusanagi> Message-ID: <20080905120021.GA32142@usap.gov> On Fri, Sep 05, 2008 at 12:19:33PM +0100, Gordon J. C. Pearce wrote: > On Thu, 2008-09-04 at 17:16 -0400, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > They're about the only company I know of that takes a 1900lb rack of > > machines, and then puts another 200lbs of steel plates on the bottom to > > add weight. (IBM SP frames) > > > > Now that I think about it, I'm surprised that I don't yet have a bad > > back thanks to my IBM gear. > > Of course, having 100kg of ballast in the bottom does give you the > rather handy feature of making the rack not tip over and kill you when > you pull a machine at the top... I've seen plenty of DEC cabinets with a couple hundred pounds of counterweight in the bottom _plus_ anti-tip feet. Fortunately, I've never had the pleasure of one tipping over on me, so I can understand why they do it. The closest I've personally experienced was trying to extract an 11/750 out of a minivan solo. I managed not to crush me or crunch the CPU, but it was tough. I _really_ don't want an SA482 cab falling on top of me. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 5-Sep-2008 at 11:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -34.1 F (-36.7 C) Windchill -66.4 F (-54.7 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 17.0 kts Grid 7 Barometer 672.1 mb (10928 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Sep 5 08:37:35 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 06:37:35 -0700 Subject: vac tubes / was Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry In-Reply-To: References: <653106.43715.qm@web50509.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <48BF542B.2090207@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 11:59:04 -0400> From: wdonzelli at gmail.com> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: vac tubes / was Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry> > > There is no green Ne-2. You can put a filter on a NE-2 and> > get a nice red or yellow but not green.> > Well, you are technically correct, as "NE-2" was originally a standard> - the little orange glowing tube we all know and love, but there were> some makers that did make a green version. The inside of the glass> bulb was frosted with a green phosphor.> > --> Will Hi Yes, I've seen the phosphor ones but I think they may use a different mixture of gas. Using a diffraction grating or prism on a neon shows one yellow and two red bands( as I recall ). I suspect that the phosphor ones would have different operating voltages. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Stay up to date on your PC, the Web, and your mobile phone with Windows Live. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093185mrt/direct/01/ From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Fri Sep 5 08:54:50 2008 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 09:54:50 -0400 Subject: stability / was vac tubes / was Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry References: <200809041716.37049.pat@computer-refuge.org> <1220613573.7798.0.camel@kusanagi> <20080905120021.GA32142@usap.gov> Message-ID: <18625.14890.542497.457229@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Ethan" == Ethan Dicks writes: >> Of course, having 100kg of ballast in the bottom does give you the >> rather handy feature of making the rack not tip over and kill you >> when you pull a machine at the top... Ethan> I've seen plenty of DEC cabinets with a couple hundred pounds Ethan> of counterweight in the bottom _plus_ anti-tip feet. Ethan> Fortunately, I've never had the pleasure of one tipping over Ethan> on me, so I can understand why they do it. There's a legend (possibly urban) that says you could make a whole row of 3330 (?) drives topple over by sending them then "unload drive" command all at the same time. That would spin down the drive and extend the slide-out cabinet (so you could open the top lid). Drives were bolted together for stability, but unloading the whole low would defeat that -- supposedly. Never got a chance to try it... :-) paul From als at thangorodrim.de Fri Sep 5 08:59:11 2008 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 15:59:11 +0200 Subject: vac tubes / was Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry In-Reply-To: <1220613573.7798.0.camel@kusanagi> References: <200809041716.37049.pat@computer-refuge.org> <1220613573.7798.0.camel@kusanagi> Message-ID: <20080905135910.GB30001@thangorodrim.de> On Fri, Sep 05, 2008 at 12:19:33PM +0100, Gordon J. C. Pearce wrote: > On Thu, 2008-09-04 at 17:16 -0400, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > On Thursday 04 September 2008, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > For a few bucks, you could get a 5 Volt transformer with a decent > > > > > current rating of 10 Amps, and not have to worry about the number > > > > > of tubes you need to feed for a while. > > > > > > > > > > Filament transformers come in many voltages other than 6.3. > > > > > > > > Ya, it would be more authentic but the filament supply would then > > > > weigh 20 lbs instead of 2. > > > > > > And why is this a problem? It's hardly going to be a portable device, > > > is it? > > > > Tony, your reasoning sounds like what IBM uses to decide how much > > something should weigh. > > > > They're about the only company I know of that takes a 1900lb rack of > > machines, and then puts another 200lbs of steel plates on the bottom to > > add weight. (IBM SP frames) > > > > Now that I think about it, I'm surprised that I don't yet have a bad > > back thanks to my IBM gear. > > Of course, having 100kg of ballast in the bottom does give you the > rather handy feature of making the rack not tip over and kill you when > you pull a machine at the top... Exactly. That's why HP also added a nice load of heavy steel plates to the bottom of our HP racks in a previous job. The rack contained some HP N- and L-class PA-RISC machines. Damn heavy iron - we needed 3 people to actually lift the damn things into their rack locations. You really don't want the whole rack to tip over when you pull one of them out for hardware maintainance/replacement. Regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Sep 5 09:34:12 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 10:34:12 -0400 Subject: stability / was vac tubes / was Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry In-Reply-To: <18625.14890.542497.457229@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <200809041716.37049.pat@computer-refuge.org> <1220613573.7798.0.camel@kusanagi> <20080905120021.GA32142@usap.gov> <18625.14890.542497.457229@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: > There's a legend (possibly urban) that says you could make a whole row > of 3330 (?) drives topple over by sending them then "unload drive" > command all at the same time. That would spin down the drive and > extend the slide-out cabinet (so you could open the top lid). Drives > were bolted together for stability, but unloading the whole low would > defeat that -- supposedly. No, you can not do that. -- Will From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Sep 5 09:45:15 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 07:45:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: stability / was vac tubes / was Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry In-Reply-To: References: <200809041716.37049.pat@computer-refuge.org> <1220613573.7798.0.camel@kusanagi> <20080905120021.GA32142@usap.gov> <18625.14890.542497.457229@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: >> There's a legend (possibly urban) that says you could make a whole row >> of 3330 (?) drives topple over by sending them then "unload drive" >> command all at the same time. That would spin down the drive and >> extend the slide-out cabinet (so you could open the top lid). Drives >> were bolted together for stability, but unloading the whole low would >> defeat that -- supposedly. > > No, you can not do that. > They may not topple over, but it would be insanely fun to watch them try. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Sep 5 09:50:35 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 10:50:35 -0400 Subject: stability / was vac tubes / was Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry In-Reply-To: References: <200809041716.37049.pat@computer-refuge.org> <1220613573.7798.0.camel@kusanagi> <20080905120021.GA32142@usap.gov> <18625.14890.542497.457229@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: > They may not topple over, but it would be insanely fun to watch them try. :) Well, OK...not sure if you know how heavy a 3333/3330 string actually is. -- Will From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 5 10:06:39 2008 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 08:06:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: vac tubes / was Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry In-Reply-To: <200809041701.m84H0O45018406@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <674351.88738.qm@web50508.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > Would not a green & red Ne-2 would fit the mood > better. > If you have the HV why not go nixe tube? I'm trying to use 12V as B+. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Sep 5 10:44:11 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2008 09:44:11 -0600 Subject: vac tubes / was Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry In-Reply-To: <674351.88738.qm@web50508.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <674351.88738.qm@web50508.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48C153CB.2060603@jetnet.ab.ca> William Blair wrote: >> Would not a green & red Ne-2 would fit the mood >> better. >> If you have the HV why not go nixe tube? >> > > I'm trying to use 12V as B+. > Why not go 45V Volts or so... I know you need another supply but I don't think you can get reasonable load line from 12 volts. (A quick look at a few random tubes shows you have the tubes very close to cutoff under -1V on the grid) From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Sep 5 11:52:25 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 12:52:25 -0400 Subject: vac tubes / was Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry In-Reply-To: <1220613573.7798.0.camel@kusanagi> References: <200809041716.37049.pat@computer-refuge.org> <1220613573.7798.0.camel@kusanagi> Message-ID: <200809051252.25339.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 05 September 2008, Gordon J. C. Pearce wrote: > On Thu, 2008-09-04 at 17:16 -0400, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > On Thursday 04 September 2008, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > For a few bucks, you could get a 5 Volt transformer with a > > > > > decent current rating of 10 Amps, and not have to worry about > > > > > the number of tubes you need to feed for a while. > > > > > > > > > > Filament transformers come in many voltages other than 6.3. > > > > > > > > Ya, it would be more authentic but the filament supply would > > > > then weigh 20 lbs instead of 2. > > > > > > And why is this a problem? It's hardly going to be a portable > > > device, is it? > > > > Tony, your reasoning sounds like what IBM uses to decide how much > > something should weigh. > > > > They're about the only company I know of that takes a 1900lb rack > > of machines, and then puts another 200lbs of steel plates on the > > bottom to add weight. (IBM SP frames) > > > > Now that I think about it, I'm surprised that I don't yet have a > > bad back thanks to my IBM gear. > > Of course, having 100kg of ballast in the bottom does give you the > rather handy feature of making the rack not tip over and kill you > when you pull a machine at the top... Between the fixed, 75kg or so power supply in the bottom and the other three 200kg nodes in the rack, it's really not necessary, unless you are stupid and are removing the nodes from the rack, from the bottom up instead of top down.. And, in that case, I don't think 100kg of steel plates in the bottom is going to help you compared to the 200kg node that's nearly 2m up in the air. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Sep 5 11:55:08 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 12:55:08 -0400 Subject: vac tubes / was Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry In-Reply-To: <20080905135910.GB30001@thangorodrim.de> References: <1220613573.7798.0.camel@kusanagi> <20080905135910.GB30001@thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <200809051255.08898.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 05 September 2008, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > On Fri, Sep 05, 2008 at 12:19:33PM +0100, Gordon J. C. Pearce wrote: > > On Thu, 2008-09-04 at 17:16 -0400, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > > On Thursday 04 September 2008, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > > > For a few bucks, you could get a 5 Volt transformer with a > > > > > > decent current rating of 10 Amps, and not have to worry > > > > > > about the number of tubes you need to feed for a while. > > > > > > > > > > > > Filament transformers come in many voltages other than 6.3. > > > > > > > > > > Ya, it would be more authentic but the filament supply would > > > > > then weigh 20 lbs instead of 2. > > > > > > > > And why is this a problem? It's hardly going to be a portable > > > > device, is it? > > > > > > Tony, your reasoning sounds like what IBM uses to decide how much > > > something should weigh. > > > > > > They're about the only company I know of that takes a 1900lb rack > > > of machines, and then puts another 200lbs of steel plates on the > > > bottom to add weight. (IBM SP frames) > > > > > > Now that I think about it, I'm surprised that I don't yet have a > > > bad back thanks to my IBM gear. > > > > Of course, having 100kg of ballast in the bottom does give you the > > rather handy feature of making the rack not tip over and kill you > > when you pull a machine at the top... > > Exactly. That's why HP also added a nice load of heavy steel plates > to the bottom of our HP racks in a previous job. The rack contained > some HP N- and L-class PA-RISC machines. Damn heavy iron - we needed > 3 people to actually lift the damn things into their rack locations. > You really don't want the whole rack to tip over when you pull one of > them out for hardware maintainance/replacement. If you think that's heavy, you've never lifted IBM hardware. For a (relatively modern) 8U machine, an IBM SP high node is amazingly heavy/dense. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From g-wright at att.net Fri Sep 5 12:33:34 2008 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2008 17:33:34 +0000 Subject: DG Aviion In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <090520081733.2594.48C16D6E0004008700000A2222243429029B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> nothing like being a day late E-bay 180283036826 this one just sold on E-bay for $10.50 - jerry -------------- Original message from Robert Borsuk : -------------- > Hi All, > I'm looking for someone with a Aviion 88k box they would like to get > rid of ($$ or trade). I have over 2 dozen hard drives loaded with > software that I would like to archive before I re-commission the > drives. Please drop me a line off list. > > Thanks > Rob From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 5 15:11:50 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 21:11:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: vac tubes / was Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry In-Reply-To: <8CBD4680-2728-4D82-86F3-DC29205981E5@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Sep 4, 8 04:09:10 pm Message-ID: > > On Sep 4, 2008, at 3:00 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > > Maybe not strictly an NE2, but there are green and blue neons > > avaiable. > > They have a phosphor coating on the inside of the glass, and I _think_ > > the gas inside is still neon (I see to remember seeing the classic > > orange > > glow trhough the glass around the leadout wires). > > Oooh, I've never seen a blue one. The green ones were even > available from Radio Shack on this side of the pond, but never the > blue ones, as far as I can recall. I think the blue ones are relatively recent, probably to go alongside blue LEDs (which seem to be used on everything thse days). I don;t think I've seen loose blue neon bulbs for sale. I've certainly seen blue neon mains indicator assemblies, though, and they don't appear to be either a plain bulb or a green one filtererd. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 5 15:13:54 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 21:13:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: vac tubes / was Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry In-Reply-To: <200809041716.37049.pat@computer-refuge.org> from "Patrick Finnegan" at Sep 4, 8 05:16:36 pm Message-ID: > > > Ya, it would be more authentic but the filament supply would then > > > weigh 20 lbs instead of 2. > > > > And why is this a problem? It's hardly going to be a portable device, > > is it? > > Tony, your reasoning sounds like what IBM uses to decide how much > something should weigh. You've still not explained why this is a problem. I really don't understand this modern love with making things as small and light as possile. I'd rather have things that are heavy enough to stay put (in the case of a rack unit, not to topple, or even feel wobbly when units are extended ot the maintenance position) and that are large enough for me to be able to work on them. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 5 15:45:24 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 21:45:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: vac tubes / was Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry In-Reply-To: <674351.88738.qm@web50508.mail.re2.yahoo.com> from "William Blair" at Sep 5, 8 08:06:39 am Message-ID: > > > Would not a green & red Ne-2 would fit the mood > > better. > > If you have the HV why not go nixe tube? > > I'm trying to use 12V as B+. If you can find them, how about some DM160s (or whatever you call them across the Pond). Little flourescent indicator tubes with 4 external connectors. A 1.5V or so filament (directly heated cathode), a control grid which needs to swith from 0V (on) to -3V (off) wrt the filament and an anonde that you really need abotu 24-30V on (but it might work with less). They glow green when on. These were certainly used as indicators in early transistorised computers/peripherals. -tony From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Sep 5 16:12:34 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2008 22:12:34 +0100 Subject: vac tubes / was Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry In-Reply-To: References: <653106.43715.qm@web50509.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <48BF542B.2090207@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <48C1A0C2.5080504@dunnington.plus.com> On 05/09/2008 14:37, dwight elvey wrote: >> Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 11:59:04 -0400> From: wdonzelli at gmail.com> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: vac tubes / was Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry> > > There is no green Ne-2. You can put a filter on a NE-2 and> > get a nice red or yellow but not green.> > Well, you are technically correct, as "NE-2" was originally a standard> - the little orange glowing tube we all know and love, but there were> some makers that did make a green version. The inside of the glass> bulb was frosted with a green phosphor.> > --> Will > Hi > Yes, I've seen the phosphor ones but I think they may use > a different mixture of gas. > Using a diffraction grating or prism on a neon shows one yellow > and two red bands( as I recall ). > I suspect that the phosphor ones would have different > operating voltages. I don't think so, or at least not very different (I didn't actually measure it). I've got a couple here, salvaged from flashguns that had one red/orange neon and one green one. They look the same, except for the band of phosphor at one end of the green ones, and ran off the same voltage. The green ones aren't completely covered with phosphor inside, and it's possible to see the usual orange glow when you look in the end with the wires, too. I must go and find a diffraction grating -- I know I've got one here somewhere... -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 5 17:00:38 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2008 15:00:38 -0700 Subject: vac tubes / was Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry In-Reply-To: <48C1A0C2.5080504@dunnington.plus.com> References: <653106.43715.qm@web50509.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, , <48C1A0C2.5080504@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <48C14996.27874.8E89C77@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Sep 2008 at 22:12, Pete Turnbull wrote: > I don't think so, or at least not very different (I didn't actually > measure it). I've got a couple here, salvaged from flashguns that had > one red/orange neon and one green one. They look the same, except for > the band of phosphor at one end of the green ones, and ran off the same > voltage. The green ones aren't completely covered with phosphor inside, > and it's possible to see the usual orange glow when you look in the end > with the wires, too. I must go and find a diffraction grating -- I know > I've got one here somewhere... Here's a chart from a manufacturer: http://www.elevam.co.jp/elevam-hp-e/product-3.html The specturm of neon: http://astro.u-strasbg.fr/~koppen/discharge/neon.html Apparently there's enough UV from the discharge to excite a phosphor. These all seem to be close enough in ratings from color to color (given the same size of lamp) to lead me to believe they all have the tranditional Penning mixture of 99.5% neon and 0.5% argon. Cheers, Chuck From tpeters at mixcom.com Fri Sep 5 17:26:36 2008 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2008 17:26:36 -0500 Subject: DG Aviion In-Reply-To: <77569C0C-A76C-4251-8C59-21DBF216C3E1@colourfull.com> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20080904211428.039e97f0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20080904211428.039e97f0@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20080905172539.02af4fc8@localhost> Might be nice, however it belongs to the transit system (my employer) and like I said, they're still running scores of mission critical applications on it all day, all night. At 10:34 PM 9/4/2008 -0400, you wrote: >I have a nice SCO box running AcuCobol I would be willing to trade >you :) > >Rob >On Sep 4, 2008, at 10:15 PM, Tom Peters wrote: > >>Sorry, you can't have ours-- it's still in active use!! We use it >>every day to run (what else) COBOL programs. Scores of them. And >>dozens of scripts. /usr/local/opbin indeed! > > > >Rob Borsuk >email: rborsuk at colourfull.com >Colourfull Creations >Web: http://www.colourfull.com ----- 921. "Experience is not what happens to a man; it is what a man does with what happens to him." --Aldous Huxley --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Fri Sep 5 19:14:57 2008 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore SInding Bekkedal) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 02:14:57 +0200 Subject: Available for pickup: IBM hardware, FC SAN In-Reply-To: <200809041226.15065.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200809041226.15065.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <48C1CB81.1020703@ifi.uio.no> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > ...or an E10k, let me know... Assuming that you are referring to a Sun Enterprise 10k: Although shipping might be prohibitative, please consider contacting the good folks at Cray-Cyber.org and offering E10k goodness to them; they've got an E10k, and they could well need parts - maybe they could pony up the shipping. Regards, -Tore :) From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Sep 5 19:21:36 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 20:21:36 -0400 Subject: vac tubes / was Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200809052021.36336.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 05 September 2008, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > Ya, it would be more authentic but the filament supply would > > > > then weigh 20 lbs instead of 2. > > > > > > And why is this a problem? It's hardly going to be a portable > > > device, is it? > > > > Tony, your reasoning sounds like what IBM uses to decide how much > > something should weigh. > > You've still not explained why this is a problem. > > I really don't understand this modern love with making things as > small and light as possile. I'd rather have things that are heavy > enough to stay put (in the case of a rack unit, not to topple, or > even feel wobbly when units are extended ot the maintenance position) > and that are large enough for me to be able to work on them. Bigger and heavier means less items in your collection to fit in the space, and a smaller number before the floor falls out from underneath of it. I'd hope you could appreciate that. :) Another problem I seem to have is that the heavier an item is (and harder it is to move myself), the less I seem to be able to find people to help move it. I in no way said that I wanted everything made of lightweight (and easily breakable) plastic, it's just annoying when things are severely over-enginered and thus increase the weight, or use heavier components when lighter ones would work in a perfectly acceptable manner. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Sep 5 19:23:00 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 20:23:00 -0400 Subject: Available for pickup: IBM hardware, FC SAN In-Reply-To: <48C1CB81.1020703@ifi.uio.no> References: <200809041226.15065.pat@computer-refuge.org> <48C1CB81.1020703@ifi.uio.no> Message-ID: <200809052023.00633.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 05 September 2008, Tore SInding Bekkedal wrote: > Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > ...or an E10k, let me know... > > Assuming that you are referring to a Sun Enterprise 10k: > > Although shipping might be prohibitative, please consider contacting > the good folks at Cray-Cyber.org and offering E10k goodness to them; > they've got an E10k, and they could well need parts - maybe they > could pony up the shipping. There have already been a couple of offers for it (much to my suprise). Perhaps the cray-cyber people could contact one of the other two people who are trying to give away E10ks on here / the rescue list. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Sep 5 21:23:53 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 05 Sep 2008 19:23:53 -0700 Subject: kevin stumph? Message-ID: <48C1E9B9.1000502@bitsavers.org> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130252592903 this is fairly disturbing "ryanstumph" is the seller, and it sounds like he is ripping machines apart for the control panels. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Sep 5 21:55:24 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 22:55:24 -0400 Subject: vac tubes / was Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2CDF3E88-2FA8-442F-B7CC-2F8652209087@neurotica.com> On Sep 5, 2008, at 4:45 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>> Would not a green & red Ne-2 would fit the mood >>> better. >>> If you have the HV why not go nixe tube? >> >> I'm trying to use 12V as B+. > > If you can find them, how about some DM160s (or whatever you call them > across the Pond). Little flourescent indicator tubes with 4 external > connectors. A 1.5V or so filament (directly heated cathode), a control > grid which needs to swith from 0V (on) to -3V (off) wrt the > filament and > an anonde that you really need abotu 24-30V on (but it might work with > less). They glow green when on. > > These were certainly used as indicators in early transistorised > computers/peripherals. I've never heard of these. I'd love to find some! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Fri Sep 5 22:32:40 2008 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 20:32:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ENIAC vs. ENIAC-on-a-Chip IC implementation In-Reply-To: <200809051712.m85HBkZK037016@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <859650.39641.qm@web50510.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Brent Hilpert wrote: > > Getting the 1946 documentation set would be a good > start. CHM had the first > > volume, which had a partial transcription on the chip > web site which I've > > scanned and put up under > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/univOfPennsylvania/eniac > > Thanks, that's far more info and detail than I've > seen anywhere else to date. > Looks like it may be most of what one needs for a machine > definition, but have > to study it more to see if one can derive > 'everything' from it. The 207 page ENIAC patent is pretty detailed: http://www.fh-jena.de/~kleine/history/machines/EckertMauchly-ENIAC-us-patent-3120606.pdf From tonym at compusource.net Sat Sep 6 02:37:22 2008 From: tonym at compusource.net (Tony Mori) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 03:37:22 -0400 Subject: OT: Linux and OpenOffice References: <200809010127285.SM04984@[63.69.23.239]> <48BB9E0E.FCD45D6D@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <001001c90ff3$6756a150$9664a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com> I have a couple apps I want to try, and they seem to be best supported under Linux... In that vein, can you guys suggest some distros for me to try? I've not actually USED a desktop linux since about RH9, although I run RHEL 4 and 5 servers at the office... I've downloaded Gentoo, Centos 5.2, Ubuntu 8.04.1, Fedora 9, just downloaded gOS (is it any good?) I like GUI's, so something decent on the gfx front... Hardware I have available: Dell Latitude D610 (circa 2006) Pentium-M 2.13gHz 1GB RAM 60GB hard disk it has a 1024x768 LCD (ewww!) and an ATI Radeon X300 video card with 64MB of video RAM. Older Intel WiFi card I also have a port replicator, and was wondering if that was supported... Don't need any dual-boot, or partitioning tricks, as I have a separate 60GB drive+sled for the D610. Other things I'd like to be able to do: 1) VPN into the office (std VPN, like you do with a windows VPN connection), 2) Office apps OpenOffice can cover (I don't do really fancy stuff like my wife did - I just use non-complicated Excel sheets and word), 3) Connect to my Exchange server - googling showed Evolution? 4) Any tools for blackberry? I have an 8700g with T-Mobile This will not turn into a pro/con sucks/doesn't suck discussion, as I am sure that horse was beaten beyond dead long ago... This is just a req to ask for what people are running out there, as a suggestion for what I should try. I don't mind trying and installing more than 1, if it's a "you need to look at both" case... Thanks. Tony From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Sep 6 02:44:51 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 02:44:51 -0500 Subject: OT: Linux and OpenOffice In-Reply-To: <001001c90ff3$6756a150$9664a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com> References: <200809010127285.SM04984@[63.69.23.239]> <48BB9E0E.FCD45D6D@cs.ubc.ca> <001001c90ff3$6756a150$9664a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com> Message-ID: <48C234F3.1000402@oldskool.org> Tony Mori wrote: > This will not turn into a pro/con sucks/doesn't suck discussion, as I am > sure that horse was beaten beyond dead long ago... > This is just a req to ask for what people are running out there, as a > suggestion for what I should try. My wife and young children have found Ubuntu 8.04.1's desktop very easy to pick up and use; in fact, my wife has switched to it full-time, and only reboots into Windows when she needs to fill her iPod, then boots back into Ubuntu. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From tonym at compusource.net Sat Sep 6 02:57:33 2008 From: tonym at compusource.net (tonym) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 07:57:33 GMT Subject: OT: Linux and OpenOffice Message-ID: <200809060357151.SM06988@[63.69.23.239]> >-----Original Message----- >From: Jim Leonard trixter at oldskool.org >Sent 9/6/2008 3:44:51 AM >To: General at mail.mobygames.com, Discussion at mail.mobygames.com >Discussion at mail.mobygames.com@ >Subject: Re: OT: Linux and OpenOffice > >Tony Mori wrote: > This will not turn into a pro/con sucks/doesn't suck discussion, as I am > sure that horse was beaten beyond dead long ago... > This is just a req to ask for what people are running out there, as a > suggestion for what I should try. > >My wife and young children have found Ubuntu 8.04.1's desktop very easy >to pick up and use; in fact, my wife has switched to it full-time, and >only reboots into Windows when she needs to fill her iPod, then boots >back into Ubuntu. >-- > Ubuntu looks pretty nice, even just the 'LiveCD' session i tried... I booted up gOS beta 3, and it looks an awfuuuuul lot like Ubuntu...I assume there's some cross-breeding there My WiFi worked on the Ubuntu LiveCD session, but does not under gOS LiveCD... The old-school distros as nice as these out-of-box? Like Debian/Slackware/Suse/etc... ? I'm starting an install of Ubuntu as we speak Now, Jim, before I go digging, wasn't it you that mentioned some extra proggies for running games? Was that to use std win games under *nix? Tony From IanK at vulcan.com Sat Sep 6 03:33:09 2008 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 01:33:09 -0700 Subject: OT: Linux and OpenOffice In-Reply-To: <48C234F3.1000402@oldskool.org> References: <200809010127285.SM04984@[63.69.23.239]> <48BB9E0E.FCD45D6D@cs.ubc.ca> <001001c90ff3$6756a150$9664a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com>, <48C234F3.1000402@oldskool.org> Message-ID: When I updated my main personal desktop to a quad-core AMD, Microsoft had just discontinued XP, and I couldn't get XP Pro x64. So, I tried Ubuntu. That was about three months ago. I'm still on Ubuntu. I have three LCD screens, and Xinerama does a pretty good job of managing them. Evolution is a decent mail client. Wine runs about half of the Windows apps I used to use, and I've found alternatives for most of the others. Interestingly, the biggest pain has been the Zune client, which refuses to run on anything but XP or Vista. (I have a Win2K Server box running my web and mail servers, and Zune just won't install there.) So I'm configuring VirtualBox, so I can run a virtual XP session to refresh my Zune. I'm pretty happy with it. ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jim Leonard [trixter at oldskool.org] Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2008 12:44 AM To: General at mail.mobygames.com; Discussion@ Subject: Re: OT: Linux and OpenOffice Tony Mori wrote: > This will not turn into a pro/con sucks/doesn't suck discussion, as I am > sure that horse was beaten beyond dead long ago... > This is just a req to ask for what people are running out there, as a > suggestion for what I should try. My wife and young children have found Ubuntu 8.04.1's desktop very easy to pick up and use; in fact, my wife has switched to it full-time, and only reboots into Windows when she needs to fill her iPod, then boots back into Ubuntu. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Sep 6 03:43:06 2008 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 04:43:06 -0400 Subject: OT: Linux and OpenOffice References: <200809060357151.SM06988@[63.69.23.239]> Message-ID: I installed debian onto my Sparc Ultra 5 (using the net install cd) and I have to admit is was very nice and easy. Much easier than years back playing with Redhat 5 on an old Pentium. Also nice how you can just search for app names and debian will find them and install them for you from the internet. Odd how I like easy installs for Linux and yet I still collect and play with DOS, Windows 3.x, OS/2 etc where you have to know what you are doing to get it to work (and somehow enjoy the process). If formats didn't change in MS Office I might just use Office 4.2.1 on my old Macs and Win 3.x PCs still. TZ From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Sep 6 05:36:35 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 05:36:35 -0500 Subject: OT: Linux and OpenOffice In-Reply-To: <200809060357151.SM06988@[63.69.23.239]> References: <200809060357151.SM06988@[63.69.23.239]> Message-ID: <48C25D33.1080309@oldskool.org> tonym wrote: > Now, Jim, before I go digging, wasn't it you that mentioned some extra proggies for running games? > Was that to use std win games under *nix? I don't recall doing so, but DOSBox is mandatory to run DOS-era games with an 90% success rate. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Sat Sep 6 06:51:48 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 11:51:48 +0000 Subject: OT: Linux and OpenOffice In-Reply-To: <48C25D33.1080309@oldskool.org> References: <200809060357151.SM06988@[63.69.23.239]> <48C25D33.1080309@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20080906115148.GA18540@usap.gov> On Sat, Sep 06, 2008 at 05:36:35AM -0500, Jim Leonard wrote: > tonym wrote: > >Now, Jim, before I go digging, wasn't it you that mentioned some extra > >proggies for running games? > >Was that to use std win games under *nix? > > I don't recall doing so, but DOSBox is mandatory to run DOS-era games > with an 90% success rate. Heh... I'm doing that right now... I'm mostly through an X-COM campaign. I probably have 6-8 DOS-era games at my fingertips for playing under DOSbox, plus more are easy to find if I go out looking for them. I suspect, though, that tonym is asking about the latest and greatest games and how to run them under WINE or some other gaming environment that someone mentioned in passing a week or two ago. I don't play that many modern games, so I haven't really dug into what it takes to make a Linux gaming platform. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 6-Sep-2008 at 11:39 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -53.5 F (-47.5 C) Windchill -88.3 F (-66.9 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 13.4 kts Grid 0 Barometer 673.6 mb (10871 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From toresbe at ifi.uio.no Sat Sep 6 07:13:21 2008 From: toresbe at ifi.uio.no (Tore Sinding Bekkedal) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 14:13:21 +0200 Subject: OT: Linux and OpenOffice In-Reply-To: <20080906115148.GA18540@usap.gov> References: <200809060357151.SM06988@[63.69.23.239]> <48C25D33.1080309@oldskool.org> <20080906115148.GA18540@usap.gov> Message-ID: <48C273E1.80504@ifi.uio.no> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Sat, Sep 06, 2008 at 05:36:35AM -0500, Jim Leonard wrote: > >> tonym wrote: >> >>> Now, Jim, before I go digging, wasn't it you that mentioned some extra >>> proggies for running games? >>> Was that to use std win games under *nix? >>> >> I don't recall doing so, but DOSBox is mandatory to run DOS-era games >> with an 90% success rate. >> > > ... > > I suspect, though, that tonym is asking about the latest and greatest > games and how to run them under WINE or some other gaming environment > that someone mentioned in passing a week or two ago. I don't play that > many modern games, so I haven't really dug into what it takes to make > a Linux gaming platform. > "How to play modern games" *is* veering quite a lot off topic, but I should just point out that the difference between the newest version of Wine and the version of Wine in most distros is quite significant. There's a nice tutorial here: http://www.winehq.org/site/download-deb Regards, -Tore :) From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Sep 6 09:47:10 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 10:47:10 -0400 Subject: kevin stumph? In-Reply-To: <48C1E9B9.1000502@bitsavers.org> References: <48C1E9B9.1000502@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130252592903 > > this is fairly disturbing > > "ryanstumph" is the seller, and it sounds like he is ripping machines > apart for the control panels. Yes, very likely Kevin using his son's account. I think these were removed from machines a long time ago. When I was at his warehouse many (8 years?) ago, there were quite a few panels kicking around without machines. I think he even told me that he was saving the panels years previous, before anyone cared about this stuff. -- Will From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Sat Sep 6 10:20:43 2008 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 11:20:43 -0400 Subject: kevin stumph? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200809061518.m86FIjQQ037030@keith.ezwind.net> I was in communication with Kevin last week, and he told me he was going to list his mod65 panel along with some other "stuff" he uncovered in a cleanup. Bob On Sat, 6 Sep 2008 10:47:10 -0400, William Donzelli wrote: >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130252592903 >> >> this is fairly disturbing >> >> "ryanstumph" is the seller, and it sounds like he is ripping machines >> apart for the control panels. >Yes, very likely Kevin using his son's account. >I think these were removed from machines a long time ago. When I was >at his warehouse many (8 years?) ago, there were quite a few panels >kicking around without machines. I think he even told me that he was >saving the panels years previous, before anyone cared about this >stuff. >-- >Will From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Sep 6 10:27:57 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 10:27:57 -0500 Subject: OT: Linux and OpenOffice In-Reply-To: <200809060357151.SM06988@[63.69.23.239]> References: <200809060357151.SM06988@[63.69.23.239]> Message-ID: <48C2A17D.3080306@gmail.com> tonym wrote: > The old-school distros as nice as these out-of-box? Like Debian/Slackware/Suse/etc... ? I started out in the SLS days, then went to Slackware and have stuck with it ever since.... more effort to set it up how you want it, but then once there it works really well. From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sat Sep 6 11:16:22 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 12:16:22 -0400 Subject: N8VEM Disk IO peripheral Message-ID: <7C07413F30624284BC07F8A394582D46@andrewdesktop> Hi! A while back I mentioned the N8VEM SBC which is a new Z80 home brew project designed in the "classic" late 1970's style. There was some discussion about the merits of using RAM/ROM drives versus "real" drives like IDE hard drives and floppy disk drives. Work continues on the N8VEM project to include supporting "real" drives. The SBC PCB and the ECB backplane PCB are basically done and available for builders to make their own home brew Z80 CP/M computer. The next project is an ECB bus monitor, which is basically done awaiting the PCB order, and the next project is the Disk IO board. I am currently working on the Disk IO board as my main activity. The Disk IO board is comprised of two parts; an IDE interface and a FDC interface. The IDE section is basically done, works just fine, and is supported in the CBIOS. No doubt it could be improved with some TLC but it works well enough for my purposes. Like the rest of the N8VEM project, it is comprised of "standard" commonly available DIP parts with no custom or programmable elements except for the SBC EPROM. I am currently working on the FDC section and making some progress thanks to some wise and very helpful persons (you know who you are!) The design exists, is based on a NEC 765 reference design at the ALPACA project, and a working but obviously still in development prototype board is on my bench. As part of the development, I am writing a "disk monitor" program to exercise the i8272 FDC chip. Currently, I can use it to read sectors from a 320K IBM PC MS-DOS formatted 5.25" floppy disk in a Tandon TM100-2A minifloppy drive, print status, dump sector memory, etc. If anyone would like to join in the development of the Disk IO board, please contact me to discuss. I am making slow but steady progress but am sure having another set of eyes to review and write code would help a lot. This would be a great way to make your own Z80 CP/M home brew computer WITH "real" drive support. http://groups.google.com/group/n8vem Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Sat Sep 6 11:40:06 2008 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 12:40:06 -0400 Subject: kevin stumph? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200809061638.m86Gc8jl044665@keith.ezwind.net> Here is a link to several photos of the 360/65 Fabritek panel Kevin sent me a few weeks back. http://ibmcollectables.com/gallery/view_album.php?set_albumName=FabriTek65 aka http://tinyurl.com/6yrcfy I had hoped to get more pictures of the FabriTek section before he sold it . The other Bob From tonym at compusource.net Sat Sep 6 12:06:23 2008 From: tonym at compusource.net (tonym) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 17:06:23 GMT Subject: OT: Linux and OpenOffice Message-ID: <20080906130657.SM06532@[63.69.23.239]> > >-----Original Message----- >From: Jules Richardson jules.richardson99 at gmail.com >Sent 9/6/2008 11:27:57 AM >To: General Discussion GeneralDiscussion@ >Subject: Re: OT: Linux and OpenOffice > >tonym wrote: > The old-school distros as nice as these out-of-box? Like Debian/Slackware/Suse/etc... ? > >I started out in the SLS days, then went to Slackware and have stuck with it >ever since.... more effort to set it up how you want it, but then once there >it works really well. > I can tell you, so far, I am MORE than mildly impressed... little things like: 1) Batteries seem to last about 15-30 minutes more, depending on utilization. 2) In FireFox, entering "google.com" and pressing "enter" the page come up nearly instantaneous. IE takes 3-4 sec. 3) GUI looks pretty nice - what's with that flaming chicken? :) reminds me of HP's "verve" laptop paintjobs. 4) All hardware worked out of the box, but my speakers are messed up, so I can;t play with sound... I need to dig a little more, and get into setting up the other requirements. Tony From tonym at compusource.net Sat Sep 6 13:09:54 2008 From: tonym at compusource.net (tonym) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 18:09:54 GMT Subject: OT: Linux and OpenOffice Message-ID: <200809061409401.SM05016@[63.69.23.239]> Guys, I am having one issue, and haven't figured it out yet... Trying to get the satellite images from the NOAA website at http://www.goes.noaa.gov/HURRLOOPS/huvsloop.html I keep getting errors about java not being enabled, and under Edit->Prefs, I see both javascript and java enabled. I'm using the Ubuntu-included FireFox, which is 3.0.1 Tony From john at guntersville.net Sat Sep 6 13:31:55 2008 From: john at guntersville.net (John C. Ellingboe) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 13:31:55 -0500 Subject: OT: Linux and OpenOffice In-Reply-To: <200809061409401.SM05016@[63.69.23.239]> References: <200809061409401.SM05016@[63.69.23.239]> Message-ID: <48C2CC9B.7020809@guntersville.net> tonym wrote: > Guys, I am having one issue, and haven't figured it out yet... > > Trying to get the satellite images from the NOAA website at > http://www.goes.noaa.gov/HURRLOOPS/huvsloop.html > > I keep getting errors about java not being enabled, and under Edit->Prefs, > I see both javascript and java enabled. > > I'm using the Ubuntu-included FireFox, which is 3.0.1 > > Tony Check the package installer and see if they have sun-java or some such name. I have run across several packages for some kind of java and the sun version of java is the only one that ever worked for me. From tonym at compusource.net Sat Sep 6 14:02:17 2008 From: tonym at compusource.net (tonym) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 19:02:17 GMT Subject: OT: Linux and OpenOffice Message-ID: <200809061502620.SM07536@[63.69.23.239]> >-----Original Message----- >From: John C. Ellingboe john at guntersville.net >Sent 9/6/2008 2:31:55 PM >To: General Discussion GeneralDiscussion@ >Subject: Re: OT: Linux and OpenOffice > >tonym wrote: > Guys, I am having one issue, and haven't figured it out yet... > > Trying to get the satellite images from the NOAA website at > http://www.goes.noaa.gov/HURRLOOPS/huvsloop.html > > I keep getting errors about java not being enabled, and under Edit-Prefs, > I see both javascript and java enabled. > > I'm using the Ubuntu-included FireFox, which is 3.0.1 > > Tony >Check the package installer and see if they have sun-java or some such >name. I have run across several packages for some kind of java and the >sun version of java is the only one that ever worked for me. > Thanks - downloading as I type this... I figured as much last night, and downloaded/installed the JRE from java.com, but it must've gone into the wrong place. I shoulda' checked the package manager, I mean, it has a search function sitting right THERE :) Tony From tonym at compusource.net Sat Sep 6 14:15:58 2008 From: tonym at compusource.net (tonym) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 19:15:58 GMT Subject: OT: Linux and OpenOffice Message-ID: <200809061515620.SM01924@[63.69.23.239]> >-----Original Message----- >From: John C. Ellingboe john at guntersville.net >Sent 9/6/2008 2:31:55 PM >To: General Discussion GeneralDiscussion@ >Subject: Re: OT: Linux and OpenOffice > > Trying to get the satellite images from the NOAA website at > http://www.goes.noaa.gov/HURRLOOPS/huvsloop.html > > I keep getting errors about java not being enabled, and under Edit-Prefs, > I see both javascript and java enabled. > >I'm using the Ubuntu-included FireFox, which is 3.0.1 > > Tony >Check the package installer and see if they have sun-java or some such >name. I have run across several packages for some kind of java and the >sun version of java is the only one that ever worked for me. Same deal - I gotta have SOMETHING set wrong... it still comes back to saying that java isn't enabled. Also, when I go to www.wagerline.com, the mouse-over drop-downs aren't visible, as they are overlaid by the flash anim. I used the adobe version - should I have selected on of the others instead? And no, I'm not a gambler - I use it as a ref to see how my boys are getting judged (Miami vs Florida). Tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Sep 6 14:35:08 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 12:35:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OT: Linux and OpenOffice In-Reply-To: <48C273E1.80504@ifi.uio.no> References: <200809060357151.SM06988@[63.69.23.239]> <48C25D33.1080309@oldskool.org> <20080906115148.GA18540@usap.gov> <48C273E1.80504@ifi.uio.no> Message-ID: <20080906123407.X51039@shell.lmi.net> > "How to play modern games" *is* veering quite a lot off topic, but I Are there newer versions of Lode Runner? Frogger? Donkey? From john at guntersville.net Sat Sep 6 14:56:36 2008 From: john at guntersville.net (John C. Ellingboe) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 14:56:36 -0500 Subject: OT: Linux and OpenOffice In-Reply-To: <200809061515620.SM01924@[63.69.23.239]> References: <200809061515620.SM01924@[63.69.23.239]> Message-ID: <48C2E074.9080702@guntersville.net> tonym wrote: >>-----Original Message----- >>From: John C. Ellingboe john at guntersville.net >>Sent 9/6/2008 2:31:55 PM >>To: General Discussion GeneralDiscussion@ >>Subject: Re: OT: Linux and OpenOffice >> >>Trying to get the satellite images from the NOAA website at >>http://www.goes.noaa.gov/HURRLOOPS/huvsloop.html >> >>I keep getting errors about java not being enabled, and under Edit-Prefs, >>I see both javascript and java enabled. >> > > >I'm using the Ubuntu-included FireFox, which is 3.0.1 > >>Tony >>Check the package installer and see if they have sun-java or some such >>name. I have run across several packages for some kind of java and the >>sun version of java is the only one that ever worked for me. > > > Same deal - I gotta have SOMETHING set wrong... it still comes back to saying > that java isn't enabled. > > Also, when I go to www.wagerline.com, the mouse-over drop-downs aren't visible, > as they are overlaid by the flash anim. > I used the adobe version - should I have selected on of the others instead? > > And no, I'm not a gambler - I use it as a ref to see how my boys are getting judged > (Miami vs Florida). > > Tony I use Debian Linux which Ubuntu is based on but there can be some real differences in places. There is a Ubuntu user mailing list where you can get the best help/info ever for that distribution. I have been using Debian for close to 20 years now and because of my age it is kinda like a comedian once remarked "I don't believe I know all I understand about that." :-) I guess there have been too many changes over the years for an old man to keep up with them all. From tonym at compusource.net Sat Sep 6 15:04:59 2008 From: tonym at compusource.net (tonym) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 20:04:59 GMT Subject: OT: Linux and OpenOffice Message-ID: <20080906160510.SM06176@[63.69.23.239]> -----Original Message----- >From: John C. Ellingboe john at guntersville.net >Sent 9/6/2008 3:56:36 PM >To: General Discussion GeneralDiscussion@ >Subject: Re: OT: Linux and OpenOffice > >I use Debian Linux which Ubuntu is based on but there can be some real >differences in places. There is a Ubuntu user mailing list where you >can get the best help/info ever for that distribution. I have been >using Debian for close to 20 years now and because of my age it is kinda >like a comedian once remarked "I don't believe I know all I understand >about that." :-) I guess there have been too many changes over the >years for an old man to keep up with them all. > Now - with my specific issue, would it be smarter for me to sniff around FireFox forums/lists first? Or go to the distro forums/lists? Tony From tonym at compusource.net Sat Sep 6 15:08:16 2008 From: tonym at compusource.net (tonym) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 20:08:16 GMT Subject: OT: Linux and OpenOffice Message-ID: <200809061608745.SM06176@[63.69.23.239]> Oh - and leave it to ESPN to support only Windows and Mac at espn360.com with their video player. Tony From john at guntersville.net Sat Sep 6 15:14:06 2008 From: john at guntersville.net (John C. Ellingboe) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 15:14:06 -0500 Subject: OT: Linux and OpenOffice In-Reply-To: <20080906160510.SM06176@[63.69.23.239]> References: <20080906160510.SM06176@[63.69.23.239]> Message-ID: <48C2E48E.4000608@guntersville.net> tonym wrote: > -----Original Message----- > >>From: John C. Ellingboe john at guntersville.net >>Sent 9/6/2008 3:56:36 PM >>To: General Discussion GeneralDiscussion@ >>Subject: Re: OT: Linux and OpenOffice >> >>I use Debian Linux which Ubuntu is based on but there can be some real >>differences in places. There is a Ubuntu user mailing list where you >>can get the best help/info ever for that distribution. I have been >>using Debian for close to 20 years now and because of my age it is kinda >>like a comedian once remarked "I don't believe I know all I understand >>about that." :-) I guess there have been too many changes over the >>years for an old man to keep up with them all. >> > > > Now - with my specific issue, would it be smarter for me to sniff around > FireFox forums/lists first? Or go to the distro forums/lists? > > Tony I would check the Ubuntu forums/lists because of things that turn up specific to the distribution that the Foxfire people may not know about. From john at guntersville.net Sat Sep 6 15:20:40 2008 From: john at guntersville.net (John C. Ellingboe) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 15:20:40 -0500 Subject: OT: Linux and OpenOffice In-Reply-To: <200809061608745.SM06176@[63.69.23.239]> References: <200809061608745.SM06176@[63.69.23.239]> Message-ID: <48C2E618.7050401@guntersville.net> tonym wrote: > Oh - and leave it to ESPN to support only Windows and Mac at espn360.com with > their video player. > > Tony You do run into sites like that. That is where a Virtual Machine with Windows or X 10 would come in handy at times but I just figure I can probably do just fine without them. From tonym at compusource.net Sat Sep 6 15:25:33 2008 From: tonym at compusource.net (tonym) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 20:25:33 GMT Subject: OT: Linux and OpenOffice Message-ID: <200809061625714.SM06176@[63.69.23.239]> >-----Original Message----- >From: John C. Ellingboe john at guntersville.net >Sent 9/6/2008 4:20:40 PM >To: General Discussion GeneralDiscussion@ >Subject: Re: OT: Linux and OpenOffice > >tonym wrote: > Oh - and leave it to ESPN to support only Windows and Mac at espn360.com with > their video player. > > Tony > >You do run into sites like that. That is where a Virtual Machine with >Windows or X 10 would come in handy at times but I just figure I can >probably do just fine without them. > Meh - forgot it doesn't matter... When there's a game on that is ONLY on ESPN360.com, you can forget about it... HORRIBLY slow, no matter WHAT your bandwidth is. I tried to watch the Miami Hurricanes game on 8/26, and it wasn't viewable. Of course, about 30min after the game ended, you could view the replay, and it was just fine. Ya know, ESPN, if you're going to make a game EXCLUSIVE to espn360, get a little more bandwidth Anyways - this Ubuntu is pretty neat, so far. About to try it on the dock. And I'm still seeing about 15% more battery life under Ubuntu vs XP SP2, and that's on 2 different batteries, so it's not a fluke.... Tony From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sat Sep 6 15:47:22 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon J. C. Pearce) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 21:47:22 +0100 Subject: OT: Linux and OpenOffice In-Reply-To: <200809061625714.SM06176@[63.69.23.239]> References: <200809061625714.SM06176@[63.69.23.239]> Message-ID: <1220734042.11471.1.camel@kusanagi> On Sat, 2008-09-06 at 20:25 +0000, tonym wrote: Please *please* take this to either Ubuntu forums, Firefox forums or ESPN forums. I like a bit of OT as much as the next man, as long as that man isn't Jay, but seriously, it's so off-topic it's not even near any more... Gordon From john at guntersville.net Sat Sep 6 15:53:31 2008 From: john at guntersville.net (John C. Ellingboe) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 15:53:31 -0500 Subject: OT: Linux and OpenOffice In-Reply-To: <200809061625714.SM06176@[63.69.23.239]> References: <200809061625714.SM06176@[63.69.23.239]> Message-ID: <48C2EDCB.9090505@guntersville.net> tonym wrote: >>-----Original Message----- >>From: John C. Ellingboe john at guntersville.net >>Sent 9/6/2008 4:20:40 PM >>To: General Discussion GeneralDiscussion@ >>Subject: Re: OT: Linux and OpenOffice >> >>tonym wrote: >>Oh - and leave it to ESPN to support only Windows and Mac at espn360.com with >>their video player. >> >>Tony >> >>You do run into sites like that. That is where a Virtual Machine with >>Windows or X 10 would come in handy at times but I just figure I can >>probably do just fine without them. >> > > > Meh - forgot it doesn't matter... > When there's a game on that is ONLY on ESPN360.com, you can forget about it... > HORRIBLY slow, no matter WHAT your bandwidth is. > > I tried to watch the Miami Hurricanes game on 8/26, and it wasn't viewable. > Of course, about 30min after the game ended, you could view the replay, and > it was just fine. > > Ya know, ESPN, if you're going to make a game EXCLUSIVE to espn360, get a > little more bandwidth > > > Anyways - this Ubuntu is pretty neat, so far. > About to try it on the dock. > > And I'm still seeing about 15% more battery life under Ubuntu vs XP SP2, and that's > on 2 different batteries, so it's not a fluke.... > > > Tony A couple people locally have recently installed Debian and almost given Windows the boot. They use the KDE desktop but there is also the Gnome desktop which is rather nice. I use the rather lightweight IceWM window manager. I've heard stories both ways on the battery life. So much of it depends on how you have things configured and what you are running no matter the OS. Good luck and enjoy. We better get back on topic soon or we might get booted. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 6 15:55:19 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 13:55:19 -0700 Subject: OT: Linux and OpenOffice In-Reply-To: <20080906160510.SM06176@[63.69.23.239]> References: <20080906160510.SM06176@[63.69.23.239]> Message-ID: <48C28BC7.29530.DD32580@cclist.sydex.com> Bottom line for me is that I need to run Windoze for my musical notation editors (Finale and Sibelius). While it's true that a few folks have gotten them running under Wine, performance is sub-Windows (didn't think that was possible) with numerous gotchas that I don't want to deal with. Both Coda and Sibelius officially state "There are no plans to produce Linux compatible versions of our products". I can't imagine that it's just the music people who are alone in this respect. While Linux does have some music notation utilities (Rosegarden, NoteEdit, Lilypond), none of them have the polished utility of Finale or Sibelius. I suspect that when you get in the area of $500+ single-user license specialty software, Linux isn't an option. So I grit my teeth and deal with Microso~1. Or use my Mac. And yes, this is vintage--people have wondered about this for more than 10 years. Another shame is that Sibelius discontinued the version of its software that ran on the Acorn. It used to be the reason to buy an Acorn for many. Cheers, Chuck From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sat Sep 6 16:07:54 2008 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 17:07:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: Linux and OpenOffice In-Reply-To: <1220734042.11471.1.camel@kusanagi> References: <200809061625714.SM06176@[63.69.23.239]> <1220734042.11471.1.camel@kusanagi> Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Sep 2008, Gordon J. C. Pearce wrote: > > > Please *please* take this to either Ubuntu forums, Firefox forums or > ESPN forums. I like a bit of OT as much as the next man, as long as > that man isn't Jay, but seriously, it's so off-topic it's not even near > any more... I second the motion. There are far more suitable forums for this sort of thing, and the amount of OffT is exceeding the OnT. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From tonym at compusource.net Sat Sep 6 16:10:47 2008 From: tonym at compusource.net (tonym) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 21:10:47 GMT Subject: OT: Linux and OpenOffice Message-ID: <200809061710354.SM05388@[63.69.23.239]> >-----Original Message----- >From: Chuck Guzis cclist at sydex.com >Sent 9/6/2008 4:55:19 PM >To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts cctalk at classiccmp.org >Subject: Re: OT: Linux and OpenOffice > >Bottom line for me is that I need to run Windoze for my musical >notation editors (Finale and Sibelius). While it's true that a few >folks have gotten them running under Wine, performance is sub-Windows >(didn't think that was possible) with numerous gotchas that I don't >want to deal with. > >Both Coda and Sibelius officially state "There are no plans to >produce Linux compatible versions of our products". They're only locking themselves out, if there is a semi-comparable product. I know it MAY have sounded like I was anti-Linux a week or two ago, but it's quite the opposite. Right tool for the job... >I can't imagine that it's just the music people who are alone in this >respect. While Linux does have some music notation utilities >(Rosegarden, NoteEdit, Lilypond), none of them have the polished >utility of Finale or Sibelius. I suspect that when you get in the >area of $500+ single-user license specialty software, Linux isn't an >option. > >So I grit my teeth and deal with Microso~1. Or use my Mac. > >And yes, this is vintage--people have wondered about this for more >than 10 years. Another shame is that Sibelius discontinued the >version of its software that ran on the Acorn. It used to be the >reason to buy an Acorn for many. > Acorn RiscOS machines? I acquired a RiscPC 700 from a chap in Missouri - how he came to acquire it, I have no idea. I found some links to wire in a PC power supply, and I yanked one from one of those book pc's. This one even had an ethernet interface in it! Very unique machine - I got through fleaBay a Strongarm 200mHz CPU board, and the machine already had an HD and a CDROM. Also from the UK i got a 2nd "slice" to make it a double-decker, and a ROM+RiscOS upgrade. I quickly lost interest in that, though.. but it was an interesting machine. I ended up selling it on fleaBay for about $200 or so to someone here in the states. I'm sure many others on the list as as I am - I like to acquire things, learn them, and then pass them on to someone else, and I've done that with SGI's, Sun's, HP unix workstations, I had a DG with AOS on it (never learned THAT though) as well as playing with Hercules IBM mainframe emulator for MVS 3.8 and VM/370 R6 Tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 6 15:44:48 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 21:44:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: vac tubes / was Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry In-Reply-To: <2CDF3E88-2FA8-442F-B7CC-2F8652209087@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Sep 5, 8 10:55:24 pm Message-ID: > > If you can find them, how about some DM160s (or whatever you call them > > across the Pond). Little flourescent indicator tubes with 4 external > > connectors. A 1.5V or so filament (directly heated cathode), a control > > grid which needs to swith from 0V (on) to -3V (off) wrt the > > filament and > > an anonde that you really need abotu 24-30V on (but it might work with > > less). They glow green when on. > > > > These were certainly used as indicators in early transistorised > > computers/peripherals. > > I've never heard of these. I'd love to find some! I have no idea if they have a US equivalent, or what it would be. But they are fairly common in the UK.I don;t own any computing equipment that uses them, but I have the plugoard-programmed controller from some kind of spectrometer instrument that has a row of these indicating the current status, I also have various arrays of them removed from other equipment (not by me, I hasten to add). I've probably got about 30 'spares' in the junk box. They're about the size of a 3AG fuse, but without the metal end caps (obviosuly). They have 4 wries coming out of one end and the seal-off tip at the other. if you find one, you can identify the wires as follows : 1) find a pair of wires that have a low DC resistance to each other. These are the end of the filament. The other 2 wires test as infinite resistance to these (and to each other) 2) Conenct about 1.5V between the filament wires (a single dry cell is fine). Now connect the -ve side of a 30V (24V, whatever) supply to one end of the filament and the other end to each of the other wires in turn. One of them will get the thing glowing grren, that's the anode. 3) With it glowing, connect the +ve side of a 3V supply to the end of the filament connected to the -ve side of the 30V supply. Connecting the -ve end of this 3V supply to the remaining wire should cut off the device and stop it glowing. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 6 15:34:08 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 21:34:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: vac tubes / was Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry In-Reply-To: <200809052021.36336.pat@computer-refuge.org> from "Patrick Finnegan" at Sep 5, 8 08:21:36 pm Message-ID: > > I really don't understand this modern love with making things as > > small and light as possile. I'd rather have things that are heavy > > enough to stay put (in the case of a rack unit, not to topple, or > > even feel wobbly when units are extended ot the maintenance position) > > and that are large enough for me to be able to work on them. [For the record, I consider the OP's comment that he wants to use a PC PSU becuase he has one or that it's convenient, or.. to be entirely reasonable.] > > Bigger and heavier means less items in your collection to fit in the > space, and a smaller number before the floor falls out from underneath > of it. I'd hope you could appreciate that. :) So by that arguemnt we should all collect handhelds, not desktop and rack-mounted machines :-) > Another problem I seem to have is that the heavier an item is (and > harder it is to move myself), the less I seem to be able to find people > to help move it. Fortunately I don't mind having to dismantle something to move it. Many of my larger machines came into the house in small-ish pieces. I remember, for example, dismantling a DEC RA60 on the back of a friend's pick-up truck (fortunately the RA60 is dismantled from the top down, so this wasn't hard), taking the bits inside and then putting them back together. Gettign back to the OP's heater supply, I don't think a mains-input heater transformer to supply 5 normal-sized receiving valves is going to make the device impossile to lift. If you used ECC83s (12AX7s), I think you could use a 20VA transformer with no trouhle at all, and that's hardly large or heavy. > I in no way said that I wanted everything made of lightweight (and > easily breakable) plastic, it's just annoying when things are severely > over-enginered and thus increase the weight, or use heavier components > when lighter ones would work in a perfectly acceptable manner. Well, there are limits, but I must admit I tend to admire solid overengineered devices. -tony From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Sep 6 17:09:23 2008 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 22:09:23 +0000 (GMT) Subject: installing more memory In-Reply-To: <616947.55187.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <370341.34486.qm@web23406.mail.ird.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 9/2/08, Andrew Burton wrote: > Thanks to everyone for all the tips and info. One last > question which I forgot to include earlier: > > There are 2 stickers on both sides of the card covering all > 4 RAM chips. Should these be removed before installing? > > I'm thinking yes, as its a potential fire hazard, but > the stickers contain the manufacturers logo (someone I have > never heard of) and other info which will probably be > damaged on removal. IP> You mean the stickers on the memory modules, or the stickers on the logic board IP> underneath the memory sockets? Ian, I was talking about the stickers on the memory module. I have left them on and have the 256MB of RAM installed and working correctly. I would like to add that it has 8 RAM chips (4 on either side), not 4 like I stated originally. Thanks to all for the help. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From rcini at optonline.net Sat Sep 6 17:39:13 2008 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 18:39:13 -0400 Subject: BYTE magazine article index Message-ID: All: I found a 10-year-old thread from this list discussing the existence (or lack thereof) of an on-line or off-line article index for the entire BYTE magazine series. From the thread it seemed that one didn?t exist at the time. I have the complete series from issue #1 to about mid-1988 and I find it difficult to zero in on particular topics. If I had a searchable article database, I could then make better use of my archive. I?ve done some googling for an index but haven?t come up with anything concise yet. Is anyone aware of an on-line index for BYTE? Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://www.classiccmp.org/cini From rcini at optonline.net Sat Sep 6 17:54:10 2008 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 18:54:10 -0400 Subject: BYTE magazine article index In-Reply-To: Message-ID: on 9/6/08 6:39 PM, "Richard A. Cini" wrote: > I?ve done some googling for an index but haven?t come up with anything > concise yet. Is anyone aware of an on-line index for BYTE? Not 2 minutes after I hit send, I found this: http://www.math.utah.edu/pub/tex/bib/index-table.html#B It has the BiBTex indices for BYTE, but they don't appear to be complete. I also found a great BiB index browser for the Mac on Sourceforge. Uutah has indices for other magazines as well. Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://www.classiccmp.org/cini From als at thangorodrim.de Sat Sep 6 17:49:19 2008 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 00:49:19 +0200 Subject: OT: Linux and OpenOffice In-Reply-To: <001001c90ff3$6756a150$9664a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com> References: <200809010127285.SM04984@[63.69.23.239]> <48BB9E0E.FCD45D6D@cs.ubc.ca> <001001c90ff3$6756a150$9664a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com> Message-ID: <20080906224919.GA26880@thangorodrim.de> On Sat, Sep 06, 2008 at 03:37:22AM -0400, Tony Mori wrote: > I have a couple apps I want to try, and they seem to be best supported > under Linux... > > In that vein, can you guys suggest some distros for me to try? I've not My wife has been using various version of Debian and Ubuntu over the years - not that _that_ mattered to her, since for her pretty much nothing changed: WindowMaker, Mozilla/Firefox, Sylpheed/Claws, OpenOffice was available on all. Of course, her machine is just a simple client - $HOME comes via NFS, auth via NIS and various other services (proxy, mailserver, DNS, ...) just exist somewhere on the home network. But I suggest you take a look at the current Ubuntu version, it should support a reasonable range of hardware and be simple enough to install (and maintain) for average non-Unix-wizard users. Regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Sat Sep 6 19:35:12 2008 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 17:35:12 -0700 Subject: Cipher 9-track drives @ RE-PC in Tukwila, WA Message-ID: <01C31152-7A1D-41C0-B219-CC43C68C9E6B@mail.msu.edu> Subject says it all. No idea if they work... 2 drives, $22.50 each. Look like 995s's. Thought someone might be interested... Josh From spc at conman.org Sat Sep 6 20:25:10 2008 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 21:25:10 -0400 Subject: OT: Linux and OpenOffice In-Reply-To: <48C28BC7.29530.DD32580@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20080906160510.SM06176@[63.69.23.239]> <48C28BC7.29530.DD32580@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20080907012510.GA9447@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Chuck Guzis once stated: > > I can't imagine that it's just the music people who are alone in this > respect. While Linux does have some music notation utilities > (Rosegarden, NoteEdit, Lilypond), none of them have the polished > utility of Finale or Sibelius. I suspect that when you get in the > area of $500+ single-user license specialty software, Linux isn't an > option. It isn't. A story to somewhat bring this back to topic. Way back in early 1995, I was hired as a consultant (by some friends) to help port the MajorBBS to Unix [1][2]. When released, it was only sold for the commerical Unix systems and they refused to sell a Linux version even though internally, all primary development was done using Linux [3]. Why? Because they could sell the Unix version for 10 times the amount of the MS-DOS version. The people interested in a Linux version was a very small subset of their customer base, and wouldn't pay more than the MS-DOS price for the Linux version. So why not sell the Unix version at the same price as the MS-DOS version? Because the Unix commercial market wouldn't buy it at that price---it's too cheap. Another company I consulted for a few years later had a product they sold for a variety of platforms, everything from PCs running Windows up to Stratus mainframes [4]. It was the same code base for everything, yet the pricing varied widely depending upon the platform. I think it was $1,500 for Windows, $5,000 for Unix, and $50,000 for mainframes. Same code base. It's all about what the market perceives is the "correct" price for the software. -spc (Glad to be working with open source software ... ) [1] http://www.kenmaier.com/gcomm/mbbsunix.htm I knew Ken and Mahesh, who did the initial test port of the MajorBBS [2] I only last two weeks there---too much of a culture clash and I didn't agree with the coding standards. [3] Later they gave in to customer demand and sold a Linux version. [4] I think that's the right name. I remember a few stories I was told about their Stratus mainframe they had to help port their software. Once, they rebooted their Stratus from one operating system to another, and twenty minutes later a representative from Stratus called the company asking if they were having problems with the computer as they noticed an unscheduled power cycle. Yes, the mainframe had a direct phone line back to Stratus. Another time a fan unit shows up at the offices unannouned. Upon investigation, it turns out the Stratus determined the fan was marginal and ordered a replacement part to be installed. From evan at snarc.net Sat Sep 6 22:52:32 2008 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 23:52:32 -0400 Subject: Altair 8800 Message-ID: <003a01c9109d$296a1de0$f750f945@evan> Anyone know how much an 8800 weighs? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Sep 6 23:15:38 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 22:15:38 -0600 Subject: Altair 8800 In-Reply-To: <003a01c9109d$296a1de0$f750f945@evan> References: <003a01c9109d$296a1de0$f750f945@evan> Message-ID: <48C3556A.3010104@jetnet.ab.ca> Evan Koblentz wrote: > Anyone know how much an 8800 weighs? > 8800 lbs :) My guess is around 100lbs ... 60 for the transformer... 40 for the rest. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 6 23:32:38 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 21:32:38 -0700 Subject: Altair 8800 In-Reply-To: <48C3556A.3010104@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <003a01c9109d$296a1de0$f750f945@evan>, <48C3556A.3010104@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <48C2F6F6.951.F75D2E2@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Sep 2008 at 22:15, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > My guess is around 100lbs ... 60 for the transformer... 40 for the rest. The transformer in a stock 8800 is a limp-wristed little thing. I doubt that the whole machine weighs more than 35. UPS deliverable without any special handling in 1975. Cheers, Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Sep 6 23:33:26 2008 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 00:33:26 -0400 Subject: EISA cfg file needed Message-ID: <729A109AC7F5472F8DEC81B5056E6E43@game> Looking for an EISA config file !INT3132.CFG if anyone has it. Thanks, TZ From oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org Sat Sep 6 23:39:20 2008 From: oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 22:39:20 -0600 Subject: DEQNA/DELQA cab kit with DEUNA/DELUA? Message-ID: <48C35AF8.1070305@rogerwilco.org> For all the DEC fans here, since I haven't been able to locate a print set for the DEUNA, I was wondering if the cabinet kit that goes between the UNIBUS DEUNA board and the 15-pin AUI connector is functionally the same as the cab kit for a QBUS DEQNA / DELQA? In other words, can a DEQNA / DELQA cab kit be used with the DEUNA ethernet controller, or are they different (pinouts, etc.)? I'm trying to organize all of the parts I'll need to get a VAX 11/750 online, once I finish up the power supply troubleshooting and get the system operational again. Thanks. Jared From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Sep 6 23:47:12 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 21:47:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Altair 8800 In-Reply-To: <48C2F6F6.951.F75D2E2@cclist.sydex.com> References: <003a01c9109d$296a1de0$f750f945@evan>, <48C3556A.3010104@jetnet.ab.ca> <48C2F6F6.951.F75D2E2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20080906214538.T65635@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 6 Sep 2008, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The transformer in a stock 8800 is a limp-wristed little thing. I > doubt that the whole machine weighs more than 35. UPS deliverable > without any special handling in 1975. Without more mass, the first time one shipped would probably never arrive. From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Sat Sep 6 23:58:22 2008 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 21:58:22 -0700 Subject: Altair 8800 References: <003a01c9109d$296a1de0$f750f945@evan> Message-ID: <001301c910a6$5ae28520$0301a8c0@hal9000> Evan, Doing a reverse-shipping calculation on the Altair that just sold on Ebay ( unless he got really screwed on the shipping ) puts the box in the 40 pound arena. Best regards, Steven From: "Evan Koblentz" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2008 8:52 PM Subject: Altair 8800 > Anyone know how much an 8800 weighs? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Sep 7 00:56:03 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 22:56:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Altair 8800 In-Reply-To: <48C2F6F6.951.F75D2E2@cclist.sydex.com> References: <003a01c9109d$296a1de0$f750f945@evan>, <48C3556A.3010104@jetnet.ab.ca> <48C2F6F6.951.F75D2E2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 6 Sep 2008, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 6 Sep 2008 at 22:15, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > > > My guess is around 100lbs ... 60 for the transformer... 40 for the rest. > > The transformer in a stock 8800 is a limp-wristed little thing. I > doubt that the whole machine weighs more than 35. UPS deliverable > without any special handling in 1975. The last time I shipped one (a few months ago), the package grossed at 45 pounds. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 7 01:31:31 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 23:31:31 -0700 Subject: Altair 8800 In-Reply-To: References: <003a01c9109d$296a1de0$f750f945@evan>, <48C2F6F6.951.F75D2E2@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <48C312D3.24299.FE2A9EB@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Sep 2008 at 22:56, David Griffith wrote: > The last time I shipped one (a few months ago), the package grossed at 45 > pounds. So in that range. If anyone's really curious, I'll drag mine off the shelf and weigh it. It's the basic 4-card model. Cheers, Chuck From tiggerlasv at aim.com Sun Sep 7 05:37:28 2008 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2008 06:37:28 -0400 Subject: DEQNA/DELQA cab kit with DEUNA/DELUA? Message-ID: <8CADEECDC151109-16DC-40F0@webmail-nd21.sysops.aol.com> As far as I can tell, the pinouts for the 20-pin BERG connectors on the DEQNA, DELQA, and DEUNA are functionally equivalent. (The DELQA uses 2 extra lines, but those will most likely be ignored, particularly if you're using a media converter, to translate to RJ45. . .) You can also use the DELQA / DEQNA cab-kits interchangeably, for basic ethernet operations on the PDP-11. . . As info. . . . From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Sep 7 07:04:11 2008 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2008 08:04:11 -0400 Subject: OT - Simple Read / Write Detection on Individual SATA II Drives Message-ID: <48C3C33B.4090606@compsys.to> I realize that they don't qualify for the 10 year rule, however, since I will be using them to run Ersatz-11 to run RT-11 software from 1985 which does qualify, I hope that this question is not too OT. Up until 10 year ago, even drives for a PC had individual LED circuits which provided a status when a read or a write request was being processed. Now, I can't find any drives which have such an LED. Tony (any anyone else who may know the details), perhaps you have the hardware knowledge as to what might be required to add a circuit with an LED (or anything else that would do the job) which would provide a status when a SATA II drive is being accessed. Separate read and write would obviously be even better, but a single LED would be more than adequate. My concept would be to modify the existing cable between the motherboard (or the controller) and the drive so that an LED could be wired in with the appropriate hardware. The wires on the LEDs should be long enough to allow them to place the LEDs outside of the case so that the user can watch then as needed. Even better might be really long wires that would allow the LEDs to be attached to the monitor. From what I know of LEDs, the current that they draw would not be a problem with wires that are many feet long. Can anyone suggest if this is a feasible project? I realize that the motherboard which has a display LED status capability for all hard drives is available, but then I don't see the status for an individual drive (I have 3 SATA II drives), let alone if the request is a read or write - assuming that it is possible to show read and write separately. Plus if the LEDs were attached to the monitor, that would be much more convenient. I actually have such a software display on my monitor right now for each of my UDMA 100 drives which is really helpful, but I don't know of any software which is set up to do that with current systems Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Sep 7 07:18:36 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2008 06:18:36 -0600 Subject: Altair 8800 In-Reply-To: References: <003a01c9109d$296a1de0$f750f945@evan>, <48C3556A.3010104@jetnet.ab.ca> <48C2F6F6.951.F75D2E2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <48C3C69C.2010607@jetnet.ab.ca> David Griffith wrote: > The last time I shipped one (a few months ago), the package grossed at 45 > pounds. > > Well 1) I was thinking of a full machine with about 1/2 dozen S-100 cards. 2) I used the word *guess*. Ben. PS. A: use bathroom scale. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 7 11:36:00 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2008 09:36:00 -0700 Subject: OT - Simple Read / Write Detection on Individual SATA II Drives In-Reply-To: <48C3C33B.4090606@compsys.to> References: <48C3C33B.4090606@compsys.to> Message-ID: <48C3A080.20606.120C144C@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Sep 2008 at 8:04, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > I realize that they don't qualify for the 10 year rule, however, since I > will be using them to run Ersatz-11 to run RT-11 software from > 1985 which does qualify, I hope that this question is not too OT. This is a question that comes up from time to time on the hardware forums. The short answer is that some manufacturers provide an OC activity LED output on pin 11 of the power connector. An LED with a current- limiting resistor between this pin and +12 or +5 will get you that. WD drives have this, as do some models of Seagate and Maxtor. This is at least true for SATA; I don't know if SATA II has made this a no-no or has fully supported this feature. Cheers, Chuck From oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org Sun Sep 7 11:46:31 2008 From: oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2008 10:46:31 -0600 (MDT) Subject: DEQNA/DELQA cab kit with DEUNA/DELUA? In-Reply-To: <200809070450.m874ohQZ058230@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200809070450.m874ohQZ058230@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <1220805991.48c405675fc03@www.jblaser.org> On Sun Sep 7 05:37:28 CDT 2008 tiggerlasv said: > As far as I can tell, the pinouts for the 20-pin BERG connectors > on the DEQNA, DELQA, and DEUNA are functionally equivalent. > > (The DELQA uses 2 extra lines, but those will most likely be ignored, > particularly if you're using a media converter, to translate to RJ45. > . .) Yes, I've got a few AUI-to-TP transcievers and I plan to use one of them to make the connection to the LAN. Do you know what the extra two lines are for on the DELQA?. Do they also exist on the DEUNA? Better yet, can you point me to the printset for a DEUNA? > You can also use the DELQA / DEQNA cab-kits interchangeably, > for basic ethernet operations on the PDP-11. . . Yes, thanks for confirming this. I do have a handful of DEQNA setups and last year picked up a DELQA. Indeed, I successfully used a DEQNA cab-kit on the DELQA when I tested it out. Thanks for the good info! - Jared From jam at magic.com Sun Sep 7 12:35:44 2008 From: jam at magic.com (James A. Markevitch) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 10:35:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEQNA/DELQA cab kit with DEUNA/DELUA? Message-ID: <200809071735.KAA17772@magellan.magic.com> > Do you know what the extra two lines are for on the DELQA?. Do > they also exist on the DEUNA? Better yet, can you point me to the > printset for a DEUNA? >From the DEUNA print set ... The transceiver cable connects the following signals from the DEUNA to the AUI connector: 1 Power 4 Power return 6 Receive+ 7 Receive- 10 Transmit+ 11 Transmit- 14 Collision+ 15 Collision- 20 Fuse low In addition, the other pins on the DEUNA connector are: 2 Power (same as pin 1) 3 Power return (same as pin 4) 5 Ground 8 Ground 9 Ground 12 Ground 13 Ground 16 Ground 17 Open 18 Open 19 Open I'll try to get a chance to scan the DEUNA print set this week and send it over to bitsavers. James Markevitch From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Sep 7 13:01:08 2008 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2008 14:01:08 -0400 Subject: Using WatCom WASM.EXE - How to obtain a listing file? Message-ID: <48C416E4.1010407@compsys.to> This must be a really dumb question, but I don't seem to be able to figure out how to obtain a listing file. I just downloaded open-watcom-c-win32-1.7a.exe and installed it without any difficulty. It assembles my source file and I can link with wlink. It all works perfectly. After more than 2 years, I am able to duplicate the DLL file that I am using and which I want to modify. But wasm /h command does not even mention anything about a listing file! Is there any way that I can obtain a listing file of the assembled source code? Thus far, WatCom has the only assembler / linker pair that I have found which can duplicate the DLL that I am using. So shifting to a different assembler may not be useful. Does WatCom have another EXE file that I am missing that is used to produce a listing of the assembled source code? Also, it would be helpful to have a link map, although right now I probably would not know what to do with one. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From hamren at sdu.se Sun Sep 7 13:18:57 2008 From: hamren at sdu.se (Lars Hamren) Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2008 20:18:57 +0200 Subject: Computer Automation library floppy images In-Reply-To: <200809030623.m836NbM7094888@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200809030623.m836NbM7094888@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <48C41B11.3090708@sdu.se> > There are now about 400 disks from Computer Automation's program > library up at http://bitsavers.org/bits/ComputerAutomation/8_imd. > They are in imagedisk format, and are all single sided, single density. Excellent. Thank yoy, Al! I will download and extract them where I can. I have written a program that can decode LSI-[24] file systems and file storage format. I'll inform the list when it's done. Al: You post was also addressed directly to me, but I did not receive it. As far as I can see it never reached my mail server. /Lars Hamr?n From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Sep 7 13:38:47 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2008 11:38:47 -0700 Subject: OT: Linux and OpenOffice In-Reply-To: <20080907012510.GA9447@brevard.conman.org> References: <20080906160510.SM06176@[63.69.23.239]> <48C28BC7.29530.DD32580@cclist.sydex.com> <20080907012510.GA9447@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <48C41FB7.9040607@brouhaha.com> Chuck wrote about music software: > I suspect that when you get in the > area of $500+ single-user license specialty software, Linux isn't an > option. Sean gave a specific example: > Because they could sell the Unix version for 10 times the amount of the > MS-DOS version. The people interested in a Linux version was a very small > subset of their customer base, and wouldn't pay more than the MS-DOS price > for the Linux version. Note that for some other markets, customers are willing to pay just as much for Linux versions as they do for versions for any other Unix operating system. The fact that the Linux operating system can be had free of charge doesn't even enter into their thinking, and in fact many of the customers pay for Red Hat Enterprise Linux. The EDA market is an example of this, with Synopsys, Cadence, and Mentor all selling for Linux versions for basically the same prices as versions for Solaris, AIX, and HP-UX. Last I heard, the Linux versions were generally outselling any of the other Unix versions, presumably because customers see the advantage of saving money on the computer hardware necessary to run it, especially when setting up a "compute farm", e.g., for simulations. I don't know how the sales compare to Windows versions, although some of the high-end EDA software is not even available for Windows. Eric From rivie at ridgenet.net Sun Sep 7 14:03:08 2008 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 12:03:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Using WatCom WASM.EXE - How to obtain a listing file? In-Reply-To: <48C416E4.1010407@compsys.to> References: <48C416E4.1010407@compsys.to> Message-ID: On Sun, 7 Sep 2008, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > This must be a really dumb question, but I don't seem to be able to figure > out > how to obtain a listing file. Although I've used Watcom C for a long, long time, I've never done anything with the assembler. I've always had the impression that they expected you to use the disassembler if you needed something like a listing. > Also, it would be helpful to have a link map, although right now I probably > would not know what to do with one. You can get a link map by telling the linker you want one in the linker options file. The magic is OPTION MAP. You can specify a filename for the map using OPTION MAP=filename. -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Sep 7 14:29:45 2008 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 15:29:45 -0400 Subject: EISA cfg file needed References: <729A109AC7F5472F8DEC81B5056E6E43@game> Message-ID: I think it is in Intels ECU 2.9.4 which they do not have online at their website, if anyone has that. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Teo Zenios" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 12:33 AM Subject: EISA cfg file needed Looking for an EISA config file !INT3132.CFG if anyone has it. Thanks, TZ From jason at havnet.net Sun Sep 7 15:22:17 2008 From: jason at havnet.net (Jason Fitzpatrick) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 21:22:17 +0100 Subject: BBC Doomsday System In-Reply-To: <1220805991.48c405675fc03@www.jblaser.org> Message-ID: Hi All, Is there anyone out there that could help us breath life back into a BBC Doomsday System? We have one that partially works but we're not getting musch joy from the Laserdisc Player. It spins up and the head makes 'squeeky' noises as it moves across the disc but the BBC Master does nothing ... Just sits trying to boot from the VFS ... Also, the picture on the monitor just rolls (left to right) fairly slowly, so there seems to be a sync problem. Connecting the beeb to the monitr directly works fine ... Any ideas? Regards Jason Fitzpatrick www.ComputingHistory.org.uk From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Sep 7 15:59:03 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2008 15:59:03 -0500 Subject: BBC Doomsday System In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48C44097.9090204@gmail.com> Jason Fitzpatrick wrote: > Hi All, ltns... hope all is well! > We have one that partially works but we're not getting musch joy from > the Laserdisc Player. It spins up and the head makes 'squeeky' noises as > it moves across the disc but the BBC Master does nothing ... Just sits > trying to boot from the VFS ... Have you got the manuals? I seem to recall the master's picky about its nvram config in a Domesday setup (and you'll need ctrl-shift-q-break to boot the disc - various other key combinations can make it look like its doing something but eventually lead to a VFS error) I've got nearly all of my Domesday documentation scanned here - but sadly with the exception of the player's service manual (that's stuck in storage back in England and I didn't get time to scan it before I left). I can't remember which disc you need right now (CAV or CLV), but if you power the unit up from cold with both standby and eject held down and with one or the other disc type in then the player should just jump to diag mode and will show you on-screen any major and minor fault codes. I *think* I've got a note of the fault codes here, even though I don't have the service manual with me - I can go digging if needs be. Obviously being able to see the fault codes requires a stable display, though :-) > Also, the picture on the monitor just rolls (left to right) fairly > slowly, so there seems to be a sync problem. Hmm, duff video lead possibly - will either of the discs play and give a stable picture with just the player connected and no beeb? What about picture from the composite output - is that stable? I'd get the standalone player going first, then worry about the genlock / SCSI operation. The player's a work of art, but notorious for dry joints, PCB interconnect problems, broken disc tray microswitches, and the little felt pads coming off the disc tray (the glue seems to fail after so many years) and fouling things up. A general inspection and re-seating of boards can work wonders, not to mention that cleaning the lens... cheers Jules From oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org Sun Sep 7 16:07:57 2008 From: oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2008 15:07:57 -0600 (MDT) Subject: DEQNA/DELQA cab kit with DEUNA/DELUA? In-Reply-To: <200809071700.m87H0DsG065368@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200809071700.m87H0DsG065368@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <1220821677.48c442ad47561@www.jblaser.org> On Sun Sep 7 12:35:44 CDT 2008, James A. Markevitch said: > From the DEUNA print set ... > > The transceiver cable connects the following signals from the DEUNA to > the AUI connector: > > 1 Power > 4 Power return > 6 Receive+ > 7 Receive- > 10 Transmit+ > 11 Transmit- > 14 Collision+ > 15 Collision- > 20 Fuse low This is great information. Thanks! Just checked the DELQA printset which gives the following for the 20-pin BERG: 1 Power 2 (key, pin blocked) 4 Power Return 6 Receive + 7 Receive - 10 Transmit + 11 Transmit - 12 Shield 14 Collision + 15 Collision - 18 Control out circuit A 19 Control out circuit B 20 Fuse OK which seems to agree entirely with the DEUNA information you have. This is good news! > In addition, the other pins on the DEUNA connector are: > > 2 Power (same as pin 1) > 3 Power return (same as pin 4) > 5 Ground > 8 Ground > 9 Ground > 12 Ground > 13 Ground > 16 Ground > 17 Open > 18 Open > 19 Open Okay, very nice to know this. > I'll try to get a chance to scan the DEUNA print set this week and send it > over to bitsavers. That would be great! I don't think there is any particular urgency, now that I have the BERG pinouts, but I'm sure the community at large (and me) would appreciate having that online somewhere in the future. Many thanks! - Jared From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Sep 7 16:55:12 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 16:55:12 -0500 Subject: Free: Heathkit H-89 Message-ID: <51ea77730809071455y19bebcceuc38000e86881991c@mail.gmail.com> Not mine - just found it on Craig's. Too far from me or I'd be all over it myself: http://grandisland.craigslist.org/sys/822183001.html From steve at radiorobots.com Sun Sep 7 17:11:17 2008 From: steve at radiorobots.com (steve stutman) Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2008 18:11:17 -0400 Subject: Unknown 64pin ceramic TRW Chip... In-Reply-To: References: <47041B22.2090407@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <48C45185.2080709@radiorobots.com> Agreed. I used one of these in early '80s. PN was something like TDC 1010 or 1020? TRW made the good mults, AD made the good flash A/Ds Steve Peter C. Wallace wrote: > On Wed, 3 Oct 2007, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > >> Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2007 18:43:46 -0400 >> From: "Curt @ Atari Museum" >> Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >> ; >> Subject: Unknown 64pin ceramic TRW Chip... >> >> I have an S-100 experimenters board with a ceramic 64pin chip on it >> that has a black cap over it and all it says is TRW. Anyone have >> any idea what the heck this might be, there are no other markings >> what so ever. >> >> >> Curt >> >> > > Quite likely a combinatorial multiplier, less likely a flash A-D. > > > Peter Wallace > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 7 17:41:05 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2008 15:41:05 -0700 Subject: Unknown 64pin ceramic TRW Chip... In-Reply-To: <48C45185.2080709@radiorobots.com> References: , , <48C45185.2080709@radiorobots.com> Message-ID: <48C3F611.15411.135A5619@cclist.sydex.com> ISTR one of the early rags (Kilobaud? Microsystems?) describing a board using one of these things, a 16x16 multiplier by TRW (MPY-16?), circa 1977-78 or so. ISTR the thing was really power hungry. Cheers, Chuck On 7 Sep 2008 at 18:11, steve stutman wrote: > Agreed. > > I used one of these in early '80s. > > PN was something like TDC 1010 or 1020? > > TRW made the good mults, AD made the good flash A/Ds > > Steve > > > > > Peter C. Wallace wrote: > > On Wed, 3 Oct 2007, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > > >> Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2007 18:43:46 -0400 > >> From: "Curt @ Atari Museum" > >> Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >> > >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >> > >> ; > >> Subject: Unknown 64pin ceramic TRW Chip... > >> > >> I have an S-100 experimenters board with a ceramic 64pin chip on it > >> that has a black cap over it and all it says is TRW. Anyone have > >> any idea what the heck this might be, there are no other markings > >> what so ever. > >> > >> > >> Curt > >> > >> > > > > Quite likely a combinatorial multiplier, less likely a flash A-D. > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 7 17:41:05 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2008 15:41:05 -0700 Subject: Unknown 64pin ceramic TRW Chip... In-Reply-To: <48C45185.2080709@radiorobots.com> References: , , <48C45185.2080709@radiorobots.com> Message-ID: <48C3F611.15411.135A5619@cclist.sydex.com> ISTR one of the early rags (Kilobaud? Microsystems?) describing a board using one of these things, a 16x16 multiplier by TRW (MPY-16?), circa 1977-78 or so. ISTR the thing was really power hungry. Cheers, Chuck On 7 Sep 2008 at 18:11, steve stutman wrote: > Agreed. > > I used one of these in early '80s. > > PN was something like TDC 1010 or 1020? > > TRW made the good mults, AD made the good flash A/Ds > > Steve > > > > > Peter C. Wallace wrote: > > On Wed, 3 Oct 2007, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > > >> Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2007 18:43:46 -0400 > >> From: "Curt @ Atari Museum" > >> Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >> > >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >> > >> ; > >> Subject: Unknown 64pin ceramic TRW Chip... > >> > >> I have an S-100 experimenters board with a ceramic 64pin chip on it > >> that has a black cap over it and all it says is TRW. Anyone have > >> any idea what the heck this might be, there are no other markings > >> what so ever. > >> > >> > >> Curt > >> > >> > > > > Quite likely a combinatorial multiplier, less likely a flash A-D. > > > > > > Peter Wallace > > > From ak6dn at mindspring.com Sun Sep 7 20:50:17 2008 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2008 18:50:17 -0700 Subject: DEQNA/DELQA cab kit with DEUNA/DELUA? In-Reply-To: <200809071735.KAA17772@magellan.magic.com> References: <200809071735.KAA17772@magellan.magic.com> Message-ID: <48C484D9.2010905@mindspring.com> James A. Markevitch wrote: >> Do you know what the extra two lines are for on the DELQA?. Do >> they also exist on the DEUNA? Better yet, can you point me to the >> printset for a DEUNA? >> I'll try to get a chance to scan the DEUNA print set this week and send it >> over to bitsavers. >> >> James Markevitch >> >> Already there, see: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/unibus/MP01378_DEUNA_schem.pdf Now if someone has the DELUA schematic, that would be worth scanning. Don North From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Sep 8 00:43:23 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 01:43:23 -0400 Subject: IBM memory available Message-ID: <200809080143.23599.pat@computer-refuge.org> I've got a bunch of DIMMs pulled from RS/6000 SP hardware available for not much cost. The memory is 3rd party (Kingston) 512MB DIMMs that were used in Purdue's SP high node systems. Third-party memory doesn't seem to be worth much, so I'm not asking too much, say $10+shipping per set of 8 or so. These are equivalent to IBM FRU 07L9758, F/C 4121 or 4100 This memory works in at least the following systems: 7044-170 (44P-170) 7044-270 (44P-270) pSeries 640 / B80 pSeries 620 9076-270 thin/wide and 9076-N81 SP high nodes Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ms at vaxcluster.de Mon Sep 8 01:04:58 2008 From: ms at vaxcluster.de (Michael Schneider) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 08:04:58 +0200 Subject: IBM memory available In-Reply-To: <200809080143.23599.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200809080143.23599.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <48C4C08A.6000009@vaxcluster.de> Hello, I'd take one set, if: - noone else really needs them - you're willing to take up the hassle to ship to Europe (Germany) - i can pay via PayPal. I'd cover PayPal cost, no problem. It's just that every other kind of payment - at least from Germany - is not really practical... Let's say for something like $25 + shipping? Many greetings Michael Schneider (ms) Patrick Finnegan wrote: > I've got a bunch of DIMMs pulled from RS/6000 SP hardware available for > not much cost. The memory is 3rd party (Kingston) 512MB DIMMs that > were used in Purdue's SP high node systems. Third-party memory doesn't > seem to be worth much, so I'm not asking too much, say $10+shipping per > set of 8 or so. > > These are equivalent to IBM FRU 07L9758, F/C 4121 or 4100 > > This memory works in at least the following systems: > 7044-170 (44P-170) > 7044-270 (44P-270) > pSeries 640 / B80 > pSeries 620 > 9076-270 thin/wide and 9076-N81 SP high nodes > > Pat -- Michael Schneider email: ms at vaxcluster.de Germany http://www.vaxcluster.de "Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben!" From ms at vaxcluster.de Mon Sep 8 01:08:14 2008 From: ms at vaxcluster.de (Michael Schneider) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 08:08:14 +0200 Subject: IBM memory available In-Reply-To: <48C4C08A.6000009@vaxcluster.de> References: <200809080143.23599.pat@computer-refuge.org> <48C4C08A.6000009@vaxcluster.de> Message-ID: <48C4C14E.50903@vaxcluster.de> Sorry, shouldn't have gone to the list. ms Michael Schneider wrote: > Hello, > > I'd take one set, if: > > - noone else really needs them > - you're willing to take up the hassle to ship to Europe (Germany) > - i can pay via PayPal. I'd cover PayPal cost, no problem. It's just > that every other kind of payment - at least from Germany - is not really > practical... > > Let's say for something like $25 + shipping? > > Many greetings > Michael Schneider (ms) > > Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> I've got a bunch of DIMMs pulled from RS/6000 SP hardware available >> for not much cost. The memory is 3rd party (Kingston) 512MB DIMMs >> that were used in Purdue's SP high node systems. Third-party memory >> doesn't seem to be worth much, so I'm not asking too much, say >> $10+shipping per set of 8 or so. >> >> These are equivalent to IBM FRU 07L9758, F/C 4121 or 4100 >> >> This memory works in at least the following systems: >> 7044-170 (44P-170) >> 7044-270 (44P-270) >> pSeries 640 / B80 >> pSeries 620 >> 9076-270 thin/wide and 9076-N81 SP high nodes >> >> Pat > -- Michael Schneider email: ms at vaxcluster.de Germany http://www.vaxcluster.de "Wir sind gew?hlt worden um zu regieren, nicht um Entscheide des Bundesverfassungsgerichts abzuwarten." (Erwin Huber) From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Sep 8 01:30:27 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 07:30:27 +0100 Subject: IBM memory available In-Reply-To: <200809080143.23599.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: Patrick Finnegan wrote: > I've got a bunch of DIMMs pulled from RS/6000 SP hardware available > for not much cost. The memory is 3rd party (Kingston) 512MB DIMMs > that were used in Purdue's SP high node systems. Third-party memory > doesn't seem to be worth much, so I'm not asking too much, say > $10+shipping per set of 8 or so. > > These are equivalent to IBM FRU 07L9758, F/C 4121 or 4100 This http://www.memoryx.net/4100mx.html suggests that this is a 200-pin SDRAM DIMM. Is it really? 168, 184 or 240 I could believe but I've never heard of a 200-pin DIMM before now. Antonio From sellam at vintagetech.com Mon Sep 8 04:36:52 2008 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 02:36:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VCF East 5.0 This Weekend, September 13-14 Message-ID: \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ Vintage Computer Festival East 5.0 Saturday and Sunday, September 13-14, 10am to 6pm InfoAge Learning Center, Wall Township, New Jersey http://www.vintage.org/2008/east/ /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ The 5th annual Vintage Computer Festival East is happening THIS WEEKEND! Come and join us to celebrate the history of the machines, stories and people of the computer revolution. VCF East 5.0 is taking place on Saturday, September 13th through Sunday, September 14th from 10:00am until 6:00pm at the InfoAge Learning Center in Wall Township, New Jersey. The VCF features an excellent line-up of speakers, a fantastic exhibition of vintage computers, and a marketplace where you can find that one item you're looking for to get that old machine running again! Highlights of VCF East 5.0 include a presentation by Bill Mauchly, son of computer pioneer and ENIAC co-inventor John Mauchly, as well as the grand opening of the MARCH Grabbe Computer Museum at the InfoAge Learning Center. -=/ VCF East 5.0 Speaker Schedule /=- Saturday, September 13 Time Speaker Topic -------- ---------------- ------------------------------------------ 10:30 AM Watts Humphrey MOBIDIC and Fieldata 12:00 PM Claude Kagan Memories of the Computer Industry 1:15 PM Evan Koblentz MARCH - Grabbe Computer Museum Opening Sunday, September 14 Time Speaker Topic -------- ---------------- ------------------------------------------ 10:30 AM Fred Carl What's up with the InfoAge Science Center? 11:30 AM Bill Mauchly ENIAC: The Heaviest Personal Computer For more information on our speakers including talk abstracts and bios please visit: http://www.vintage.org/2008/east/speaker.php -=/ Workshgops /=- VCF East 5.0 is hosting two workshops by Vince Briel, creator of the Replica 1 (Apple-1 clone) and micro-KIM (KIM-1 clone). In each workshop VCF attendees will be guided through the construction of your choice of vintage computer replica by Vince himself. There are still open slots but they are filling up fast. Reserve your spot today! Information on the workshops can be found here: http://www.vintage.org/2008/east/workshop.php More information about Vince's replicas can be found at the Briel Computers website: http://www.brielcomputers.com/ -=/ InfoAge Learning Center Tours /=- Tours of the InfoAge Learning Center (the host of VCF East 5.0) are being held throughout the day concurrently with the VCF. For more information, please visit: http://www.infoage.org/ For complete information on VCF East 5.0 including admission and directions, please visit the VCF East 5.0 website: http://www.vintage.org/2008/east/ Best regards, Sellam Ismail Producer Vintage Computer Festival -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From markw at wtech-llc.com Wed Sep 3 07:59:00 2008 From: markw at wtech-llc.com (Mark L. Weindling) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 07:59:00 -0500 Subject: IBM 5150 rom: 5700051 at U33 - anyone have this? In-Reply-To: <48B9FCC9.4080905@drexel.edu> References: <48B9FCC9.4080905@drexel.edu> Message-ID: Any luck on this yet? If you're still stuck, let me know and I'll see what I can do. -Mark On Aug 30, 2008, at 9:07 PM, Jonathan Gevaryahu wrote: > > I'm looking for a specific rom for an IBM 5150 machine: rom 5700051 > at location U33. > This rom was only used on the very earliest (16-64k MB) 5150 machines. > I know Rich Cini has a disassembly of it on his site: http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp/files/PCBios.ASM > but does anyone have the original binary image? > > It can easily be dumped from a working 5150 using a dos boot > diskette and the instructions at http://mess.toseciso.org/dumping:dump_bios_using_debug/ > > The actual chip is an MK36xxx rom, which requires a pulse train on / > CE in order to read properly. Some eprom programmers will not read > these correctly at all, the first byte will fill the entire rom > image because the address is never re-latched. (MK36xxx roms will > not read properly without a pulse train of HIGH LOW then set next address> HIGH LOW address>, etc. IBM loved to use these, for some reason, and only > switched to real 2364/23256/2764/27256/etc on the ps/2 machines and > the later ATs, and on certain expansion cards such as the Xebec hdd > controller on the XT,which uses a 2764 for the z80 rom.) > > The chip can be read in an incompatible eprom programmer by sticking > the chip in some solderless breadboard and wiring it to the rom > socket in the following way: > programmer A0 through an inverter(7404 will work fine) and > connecting to rom /CE > programmer A1 to rom A0 > programmer A2 to rom A1 > etc. > Data lines connect directly. read the rom as a 27128, then toss the > first(0x00), third(0x02), and every odd(0x0x where x is even) byte > thereafter, and keep the rest. > > other than the /CE change, the mk36xxx is pinout compatible to a > 2364, which has a different pinout than a 2764 or 27128 does: > > +--------------+ > A7 |1 +--+ 24| Vcc > A6 |2 23| A8 > A5 |3 22| A9 > A4 |4 21| A12 > A3 |5 20| /CE > A2 |6 2364 19| A10 > A1 |7 18| A11 > A0 |8 17| D7 > D0 |9 16| D6 > D1 |10 15| D5 > D2 |11 14| D4 > Vss |12 13| D3 > +--------------+ > > > > P.S. does anyone have an IBM 5100 or other machine in the pre-PC > 51xx series? I'm looking for info from those, too. > > Thanks! > > -- > Jonathan Gevaryahu > jgevaryahu(@t)hotmail(d0t)com > jzg22(@t)drexel(d0t)edu > From chrise at pobox.com Wed Sep 3 09:12:49 2008 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 09:12:49 -0500 Subject: Paper tapes+rubber bands+30 yrs = mess Message-ID: <20080903141249.GA15792@n0jcf.net> I have a large collection of paper tapes that came with a vintage Altair 680b and Teletype model 33 that I inherited. I've restored the machines and have started looking at the tapes. Unfortunately, I have discovered that the rubber bands that were used to keep the tapes rolled up have all dissolved into a yucky gooey mess that is in most cases, stuck to the tapes. I'm pretty sure the oil on the tapes and 30+ yrs time have done this dirty deed. Sadly, there were original, unopened MITS Altair editor/assembler tapes, BASIC, etc. still sealed in their original packaging but the rubber bands inside have melted all over the tapes. Has anyone dealt with this kind of cleanup before? What are my best options for solvents to get rid of what's left of the rubber without damaging the tapes too much more? What a mess. Parents, talk to your children about rubber bands... Chris -- Chris Elmquist mailto:chrise at pobox.com From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Sep 3 13:06:14 2008 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 14:06:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Paper tapes+rubber bands+30 yrs = mess In-Reply-To: <48BE6009.7478.2EB6B799@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20080903141249.GA15792@n0jcf.net>, <0cef01c90ddf$a6a1a7d0$06fea8c0@portajara> <48BE6009.7478.2EB6B799@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200809031809.OAA01471@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I think you're referring to benzine (*not* benzene) What's the difference? I thought this was just another spelling variant between UK English and North America English. (Indeed, when I ask dictionary.com for "benzene", one of the entries says "[a]lso called benzine".) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cbritt at cfl.rr.com Wed Sep 3 13:23:15 2008 From: cbritt at cfl.rr.com (cbritt) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 14:23:15 -0400 Subject: sears wire recorder Message-ID: <001101c90df2$2221b190$6400a8c0@CHUCK> Hi Am attempting to visit your on line page and contact you thru it however I had trouble connecting to you in there so am writing thru my email. I have a Sears wire recorder (model 101.771 and needs a small open wire type spring that pushes an actuator when u go from play to rewind. If you have any idea where i might locate such a part I will get a picture of the spring and provide model ect if that would help. ANy information asto where I might buy a spring for the recorder would be much appreciated Thank You Best Regards, Chuck B cnritt at cfl.rr.com From jfk at kuenzigbooks.com Wed Sep 3 15:32:07 2008 From: jfk at kuenzigbooks.com (Kuenzig Books, John F. Kuenzig) Date: Wed, 03 Sep 2008 16:32:07 -0400 Subject: Paper tapes+rubber bands+30 yrs = mess In-Reply-To: <20080903141249.GA15792@n0jcf.net> References: <20080903141249.GA15792@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <48BEF447.6030007@kuenzigbooks.com> Chris - You might try speaking with a paper restoration expert or a bookbinder. They deal with this sort of aggravation all the time. Ask if you should use their recommended solutions under a hood - some of this stuff is very uncool to your lungs. Also, if you (or they) use anything that has an acidic component be sure to neutralize the paper afterwards - otherwise the paper can degrade significantly faster - you'll see this effect in old pulp paper that browns easily (and then becomes brittle and flakes easily). I hate the degradation you see in old foam packaging for components (esp optical glass) which falls apart as soon as you try to remove it. Often in those snap-shut plastic containers. Same issue. Ugh. John Chris Elmquist wrote: > I have a large collection of paper tapes that came with a vintage Altair > 680b and Teletype model 33 that I inherited. I've restored the machines > and have started looking at the tapes. Unfortunately, I have discovered > that the rubber bands that were used to keep the tapes rolled up have > all dissolved into a yucky gooey mess that is in most cases, stuck to > the tapes. > > I'm pretty sure the oil on the tapes and 30+ yrs time have done this dirty > deed. Sadly, there were original, unopened MITS Altair editor/assembler > tapes, BASIC, etc. still sealed in their original packaging but the > rubber bands inside have melted all over the tapes. > > Has anyone dealt with this kind of cleanup before? What are my best > options for solvents to get rid of what's left of the rubber without > damaging the tapes too much more? > > What a mess. > > Parents, talk to your children about rubber bands... > > Chris > From chrise at pobox.com Wed Sep 3 20:03:33 2008 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 20:03:33 -0500 Subject: Paper tapes+rubber bands+30 yrs = mess In-Reply-To: <48bec0ce.c8.5c0.160@jdfogg.com> References: <48bec0ce.c8.5c0.160@jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <20080904010333.GA16167@n0jcf.net> Thanks for all the replies on this topic. I'll look into some of the solvents mentioned... certainly acetone is still available at hardware stores. Then one followup comment: On Wednesday (09/03/2008 at 11:52AM -0500), james wrote: > > How much data is in the exposed tape that was damaged? Don't > they have leaders with no data on them? Did the damage > extend into the layers beneath the surface? I'm assuming > that the tapes were rolled up and only the first few inches > were damaged. Unfortunately, in many cases, the rubber band melted into a pool which then flowed across the rolled up tape EDGE. ie, the roll was sitting flat in a box and the rubber pool flowed across the flat bottom of the box and managed to contact the tape from the outside diameter to the inner... touching the whole thing!! geez. Thanks again for all the replies. Chris -- Chris Elmquist mailto:chrise at pobox.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 4 19:28:10 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 4 Sep 2008 17:28:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: any Apollo fans out yonder? Message-ID: <475613.43223.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> I know I posted this before. But there's been so little feedback... From bruce at Wild-Hare.com Fri Sep 5 11:53:39 2008 From: bruce at Wild-Hare.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Fri, 5 Sep 2008 10:53:39 -0600 Subject: DG Aviion References: <5.1.0.14.2.20080904211428.039e97f0@localhost> <77569C0C-A76C-4251-8C59-21DBF216C3E1@colourfull.com> Message-ID: <031901c90f77$f4ff0b90$a166d746@linksys> G'day Rob - I'll contact you off list about AV 310 or such... Bruce Bruce Ray Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. bkr at WildHareComputers.com ...preserving the Data General legacy: www.NovasAreForever.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Borsuk" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2008 08:34 PM Subject: Re: DG Aviion >I have a nice SCO box running AcuCobol I would be willing to trade > you :) > > Rob > On Sep 4, 2008, at 10:15 PM, Tom Peters wrote: > >> Sorry, you can't have ours-- it's still in active use!! We use it >> every day to run (what else) COBOL programs. Scores of them. And >> dozens of scripts. /usr/local/opbin indeed! > > > > Rob Borsuk > email: rborsuk at colourfull.com > Colourfull Creations > Web: http://www.colourfull.com -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.16/1651 - Release Date: 9/4/2008 6:57 AM From gsimpso3 at bellsouth.net Sat Sep 6 01:50:14 2008 From: gsimpso3 at bellsouth.net (Gary) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 01:50:14 -0500 Subject: CPT 8000 In-Reply-To: 597A7696D93DCF44BE1B2B1252261ACB040D41AC@nl000nt02.exactsoftware.com Message-ID: <615DD51294A7488EA1C1447C87250E33@GaryPC> Hello Adrian; I read a thread from 2004 on classiccmp.org's website about your CPT 8000 and wonder if you still have it? If so I may be able to help you out with any missing parts, program disks, diagrams, etc. just for the price of shipping. I used to service the machines for the local vendor from 1980 to 1990 and rescued a pile of parts and documentation that were headed for the dumpster when they were made obsolete by the PC in the late '80s. I even managed to save several intact machines. The CPT 8000 and its descendants were quite advanced for their time and had features that CPT's competitors (IBM, Wang and Lanier) couldn't come close to matching. I haven't fired my 8135 up in quite a few years so I'm not sure if any of the software floppies are still readable. All my program disks may already be unreadable. --Gary Simpson From julianskidmore at yahoo.com Sat Sep 6 15:44:39 2008 From: julianskidmore at yahoo.com (Julian Skidmore) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 13:44:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mac SE Flyback! Message-ID: <429560.44699.qm@web37103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi folks, I hope a Mac SE is old enough to chat about here - it's hardly newer than my pdp11 or Vax! Anyway, the Mac's good, but the flyback Transformer burnt out a while back and I was wondering what would be a suitable replacement. I have information on the Mac Plus analog circuitry from Mac Tech and the parts numbers for the Mac SE flybacks. However, none of this gives me the spec for the flyback and since AFAIK they're not available any more, I'm wondering how to get a suitable replacement. It doesn't have to look the same, it just has to work and be reliable! http://www.biwa.ne.jp/~shamada/fullmac/repairEng.html Tai-Ho/Taiwan R.O.C. TH-1565C Mac SE Lifon/Taiwan R.O.C. 157-0042-A Mac SE, Repaired analog board, SE/30 Lifon/Taiwan R.O.C. 157-0042-B Mac SE, Repaired analog board, SE/30 Lifon/Taiwan R.O.C. 157-0042-C Mac SE, Repaired analog board, SE/30 http://home.earthlink.net/~gamba2/images/plus_analog.PDF This is probably going a bit far ;-) : http://members.misty.com/don/samflyhv.html -cheers from julz @P From rikbos at xs4all.nl Wed Sep 3 03:08:24 2008 From: rikbos at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2008 10:08:24 +0200 Subject: Slightly OT: SR-52 Service manual Message-ID: <684AFCA99E87476D9E5D5C5C31EA69A5@xp1800> I'm bussy restoring a Ti SR-52 and having some trouble with the card reader electronics. I't's reading prerecorded cards fine, but is not writing data on the cards . And it does not transport the card fully through the card reader, I have to pull the card the last few millimeters before it gets free from the capstand. So I'm searching for a schematic diagram or service manual. -Rik From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Sep 6 17:26:18 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 18:26:18 -0400 Subject: vac tubes / was Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry Message-ID: <0K6S008ZUOZ5NKV0@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: vac tubes / was Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 21:34:08 +0100 (BST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> > I really don't understand this modern love with making things as >> > small and light as possile. I'd rather have things that are heavy >> > enough to stay put (in the case of a rack unit, not to topple, or >> > even feel wobbly when units are extended ot the maintenance position) >> > and that are large enough for me to be able to work on them. > >[For the record, I consider the OP's comment that he wants to use a PC >PSU becuase he has one or that it's convenient, or.. to be entirely >reasonable.] > >> >> Bigger and heavier means less items in your collection to fit in the >> space, and a smaller number before the floor falls out from underneath >> of it. I'd hope you could appreciate that. :) > >So by that arguemnt we should all collect handhelds, not desktop and >rack-mounted machines :-) > >> Another problem I seem to have is that the heavier an item is (and >> harder it is to move myself), the less I seem to be able to find people >> to help move it. > >Fortunately I don't mind having to dismantle something to move it. Many >of my larger machines came into the house in small-ish pieces. I >remember, for example, dismantling a DEC RA60 on the back of a friend's >pick-up truck (fortunately the RA60 is dismantled from the top down, so >this wasn't hard), taking the bits inside and then putting them back >together. > >Gettign back to the OP's heater supply, I don't think a mains-input >heater transformer to supply 5 normal-sized receiving valves is going to >make the device impossile to lift. If you used ECC83s (12AX7s), I think >you could use a 20VA transformer with no trouhle at all, and that's >hardly large or heavy. > 12AX7 at 12.6V @.15A (1.8VA) or parallel connected 6.3V @ .3a and I consider that trivial. A transformer sufficient to run 10 of those (18VA) is under 2-3pounds. The average 12V at 1A wall wart can run six of those with a comfortable margin. We are not talking a lot of power yet. If we are in the realm of 100 or 1000 of those then we have some power needs to deal with.. The solution there would be to use instead of one 12.6V transformer that can give 150A we can use ten more readily available transformers of a mere 15A (189VA) which is more manageable anyway. That same transformer (assume 12.6V AC) could using a voltage multiplier easily supply 40-45V where the valves would have a decent usable performance. This is easy as those valves at 40-50V will only need a few milliamps per plate circuit. I know this as I built a 5 tube reciever (6AN8, 6AU6, 6BH6, 6CW4, 6dl6/ECL84) for 80/75M and the whole radio fits in a 7x8 chassis and with the power transformer and audio output transformer is under 6 pounds. The transformer used was salvage but had a 150V 100mA winding and a 6.3V 3A winding (total of 34VA) and that was not even stressed hard and weighed on at under two pounds. Another example is 40 years ago I had a Beckman EPUT (events per unit time) counter that used the then typical tube era 5mhz ring counter decades with neon readout (0-9 with NE2 type neon behind them) (6 ofthem) plus timebase for a whopping 42 tubes mostly of the 12AX7 types and it was big (19" rack width by 11" high) but I distinctly remember it as barely 40 pounds considering it was fully enclosed in a steel case and each decade was in its own case that plugged into a matching socket in the cabnet. Powering tubes in that class (ECC83s) is trivial compared to the day of the ABC where typical dual triode was maybe in the class of 6SN7 (6.3V at .6A) or worse. Early tubes where power hungry for heater power. Allison > >> I in no way said that I wanted everything made of lightweight (and >> easily breakable) plastic, it's just annoying when things are severely >> over-enginered and thus increase the weight, or use heavier components >> when lighter ones would work in a perfectly acceptable manner. > >Well, there are limits, but I must admit I tend to admire solid >overengineered devices. > >-tony From thibergep at limestone.on.ca Sat Sep 6 21:36:00 2008 From: thibergep at limestone.on.ca (Mme Thiberge) Date: Sat, 6 Sep 2008 22:36:00 -0400 Subject: IBM PS/1 2121 system info/monitor Message-ID: <003a01c91092$77a484b0$6402a8c0@LilMonster> Mike I have one - my apartment looks like an elephant dying ground for computer components. I was about to dump it on a local "sell" site for $10. It hasn't been used in 8+ years.... $10 + shipping *if* you are still looking Pamella From derschjo at msu.edu Sat Sep 6 22:23:24 2008 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 06 Sep 2008 20:23:24 -0700 Subject: Nuclear Data ND-812 info... Message-ID: <48C3492C.6080803@msu.edu> Hey all -- Got my hands on a pair of Nuclear Data ND-812's (thanks, Mike!) and I'm looking for any info/software for them. I've got the stuff off of Bitsavers already :). 12-bit machine from ~1971, toggle switches and blinky lights. Actually, these are BR2412s -- evidently military versions of the ND-812. They're green :). The other major differences (from glancing through the maintainance docs on Bitsavers and comparing to mine) are that the ND-812 used core memory, and the machines I have use DRAM (Looks like 24kw of Intel 1103's!). And as a result the BR2412 has a completely different power supply, which I'd love to have information for so I can test it out before powering these things on. And I assume the color scheme was different :). Anyone know the history of this machine (or even the company itself? Did they make any other computers?) I can't find too much information on the 'net... Josh From derschjo at msu.edu Sun Sep 7 14:57:02 2008 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 07 Sep 2008 12:57:02 -0700 Subject: Nuclear Data ND-812 info... In-Reply-To: <48C3492C.6080803@msu.edu> References: <48C3492C.6080803@msu.edu> Message-ID: <48C4320E.3010100@msu.edu> Replying to my own post, mostly 'cause it's been almost 18 hours and my original post seems to have gotten lost on its way to the list, but also because I found two additional things: - the BR2412 is not a military computer, it's the Bunker Ramo version of the ND-812 which was probably used in retail establishments. - The BR2412 has what looks to be a lead-acid battery, presumably used to maintain the contents of the DRAM when power is turned off (so it'll act more like core memory, presumably). Anyone know anything else about these things? Thanks, Josh Josh Dersch wrote: > Hey all -- > > Got my hands on a pair of Nuclear Data ND-812's (thanks, Mike!) and > I'm looking for any info/software for them. I've got the stuff off of > Bitsavers already :). 12-bit machine from ~1971, toggle switches and > blinky lights. > > Actually, these are BR2412s -- evidently military versions of the > ND-812. They're green :). The other major differences (from glancing > through the maintainance docs on Bitsavers and comparing to mine) are > that the ND-812 used core memory, and the machines I have use DRAM > (Looks like 24kw of Intel 1103's!). And as a result the BR2412 has a > completely different power supply, which I'd love to have information > for so I can test it out before powering these things on. And I > assume the color scheme was different :). > > Anyone know the history of this machine (or even the company itself? > Did they make any other computers?) I can't find too much information > on the 'net... > > Josh > > > From john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com Sun Sep 7 15:03:56 2008 From: john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com (John S) Date: Sun, 7 Sep 2008 20:03:56 +0000 Subject: [Toronto Canada] - AES Plus free for collection Message-ID: Hi, I have had an email from an owner of an AES Plus system, who is looking to give it away to a good home. This system is a dedicated Word Processor, built around an 8080 processor. The owner has loads of disks too, these might be rare 16-sector hard-sectored types and so it would be worth collecting the system just for the floppies. If you are able to collect the whole system from the Toronto area, please email me and I will pass your details on. Regards, John _________________________________________________________________ Make a mini you and download it into Windows Live Messenger http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/111354029/direct/01/ From ra9yer at yahoo.com Mon Sep 8 05:34:41 2008 From: ra9yer at yahoo.com (Alexander Sholohov) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 03:34:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ECC on MFM drive Message-ID: <21539.18327.qm@web55001.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Hello, Could someone help me understand the algorithm used for data integrity check on ST251 MFM drive. I have ST251 drive and an Adaptec controller. Also I have ability to view recorded data in raw format. On the track I see ID field block protected by CCITT CRC16. And the data block protected by some 32-bit ECC. This is definitely not a CRC32. The algorithm in general looks like shift register for polynomial multiplication with polynomial equal to x32+x28+x26+x19+x17+x10+x6+x2+1 . But, this is not just a multiplication. The circuit has some other logic that I did not understand yet. I?ve found very useful document (http://www.national.com/an/AN/ AN-413.pdf) It has a mention about algorithm called ?Glover 140A0443 ? May be this is that I have? Please advice. Thank you. Alexander. From fryers at gmail.com Mon Sep 8 06:51:11 2008 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 12:51:11 +0100 Subject: any Apollo fans out yonder? In-Reply-To: <475613.43223.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <475613.43223.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: G'Day, On 05/09/2008, Chris M wrote: > I know I posted this before. But there's been so little feedback... I assume you are referring to the Apollo Domain computers that were subsequently swallowed by HP. In which case - yes. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From michaelgreen42 at comcast.net Mon Sep 8 07:05:56 2008 From: michaelgreen42 at comcast.net (Mike) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 05:05:56 -0700 Subject: FORSALE: IMSAI 8080 in excellent shape In-Reply-To: <200809081138.m88Bckob076074@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200809081138.m88Bckob076074@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <467CC17CA47F4A0E9E46CC5566C6D5D6@pal> Picked up a recent acquisition and thought I would try here before I send to eBay. I have an original IMSAI 8080 in great condition. It comes with two floppy drives. I don't really know how to test but it powers up and all the blinking lights come on. Taking best offer of cash/trade. I'm located near Seattle WA. Obviously if you're local trades will be easier. Email me with offers. From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Sep 8 07:23:24 2008 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 14:23:24 +0200 Subject: any Apollo fans out yonder? In-Reply-To: References: <475613.43223.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <9038160EABFF43F3A254C8AB8FB59619@xp1800> >G'Day, >On 05/09/2008, Chris M wrote: > I know I posted this before. But there's been so little feedback... >I assume you are referring to the Apollo Domain computers that were subsequently swallowed by HP. In which case - yes. >Simon Got a few too, but all HP branded ;-) -Rik -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Sep 8 07:26:15 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 13:26:15 +0100 Subject: Paper tapes+rubber bands+30 yrs = mess In-Reply-To: <200809031809.OAA01471@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20080903141249.GA15792@n0jcf.net>, <0cef01c90ddf$a6a1a7d0$06fea8c0@portajara> <48BE6009.7478.2EB6B799@cclist.sydex.com> <200809031809.OAA01471@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <48C519E7.4090800@dunnington.plus.com> On 03/09/2008 19:06, der Mouse wrote: >> I think you're referring to benzine (*not* benzene) > What's the difference? I thought this was just another spelling > variant between UK English and North America English. (Indeed, when I > ask dictionary.com for "benzene", one of the entries says "[a]lso > called benzine".) Then it's not very precise, because there is a difference. "benzine" is a generic term used in some countries for roughly what I'd call petrol and you'd call gasoline. "benzene" is a specific chemical compound which may or may not be found in benzine, but as it's a known carcinogen it's now banned in many places. der Mouse's message only just appeared in my inbox, interestingly. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From fryers at gmail.com Mon Sep 8 07:37:56 2008 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 13:37:56 +0100 Subject: any Apollo fans out yonder? In-Reply-To: <9038160EABFF43F3A254C8AB8FB59619@xp1800> References: <475613.43223.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <9038160EABFF43F3A254C8AB8FB59619@xp1800> Message-ID: On 08/09/2008, Rik Bos wrote: > >On 05/09/2008, Chris M wrote: > > I know I posted this before. But there's been so little feedback... > > >I assume you are referring to the Apollo Domain computers that were > subsequently swallowed by HP. In which case - yes. > > Got a few too, but all HP branded ;-) I have a couple pre-HP but they are in storage in Western Australia. I have some taped with me in the UK that I need to catalogue properly at some point. Bletchley Park also has a good collection of pre and post HP Apollos - although not on display at the moment... Another thing on my todo list! Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Sep 8 08:54:53 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 06:54:53 -0700 Subject: Paper tapes+rubber bands+30 yrs = mess Message-ID: > From: pete at dunnington.plus.com ---snip---> > Then it's not very precise, because there is a difference. "benzine" is > a generic term used in some countries for roughly what I'd call petrol > and you'd call gasoline. "benzene" is a specific chemical compound > which may or may not be found in benzine, but as it's a known carcinogen > it's now banned in many places.> Hi I know how to make benzene. Take acetylene and pressurize it to 4 atmospheres and bang, you have benzene. With a catalyst, it can be done more sanely. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn ?10 hidden secrets? from Jamie. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008 From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Sep 8 09:28:06 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 10:28:06 -0400 Subject: IBM memory available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48C53676.2090805@gmail.com> Antonio Carlini wrote: > Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> I've got a bunch of DIMMs pulled from RS/6000 SP hardware available >> for not much cost. The memory is 3rd party (Kingston) 512MB DIMMs >> that were used in Purdue's SP high node systems. Third-party memory >> doesn't seem to be worth much, so I'm not asking too much, say >> $10+shipping per set of 8 or so. >> >> These are equivalent to IBM FRU 07L9758, F/C 4121 or 4100 > > This http://www.memoryx.net/4100mx.html suggests that this is a > 200-pin SDRAM DIMM. Is it really? 168, 184 or 240 I could believe > but I've never heard of a 200-pin DIMM before now. They're specific to RS/6000. Peace... Sridhar From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Mon Sep 8 09:31:29 2008 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 16:31:29 +0200 Subject: Mac SE Flyback! In-Reply-To: <429560.44699.qm@web37103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <429560.44699.qm@web37103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48C53741.3090808@bluewin.ch> Julian Skidmore wrote: > Hi folks, > > I hope a Mac SE is old enough to chat about here - it's hardly newer > than my pdp11 or Vax! > > Anyway, the Mac's good, but the flyback Transformer burnt out a while > back and I was wondering what would be a suitable replacement. I have I just discarded a Mac plus analog board, interested ? You can have it, or just the flyback, for the cost of shipping from Switzerland. Jos Dreesen From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Sep 8 09:44:46 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 07:44:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Interesting driver... Message-ID: While reading comp.sys.cbm, I ran across this site: http://simonowen.com/fdrawcmd/ I would imagine that this driver would come in quite handy for those wanting to work with foreign formats while using Windows. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Sep 8 10:45:08 2008 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 11:45:08 -0400 Subject: Files are Different Problem Message-ID: <48C54884.9090902@compsys.to> I spent 3 hours this morning attempting to figure out where to start looking. The problem shows up as a difference between files which are almost certainly identical - except in one copy which I am confident is different all of the time by the specified byte (caused at the time the copy was made). Rather than attempting to hide that this is current PC hardware, it is probably best to list: Hardware: Intel E8200 CPU (2.66 GHz), 2 * 2 GB memory in ASUS P5B motherboard with 2 * Seagate 320 GB SATA II hard drives Software: Windows XP with probably SP3 The problem shows up between 5% to 10% of the time with very large files of greater than 1/2 GB to 2 GB in total size. The command: COPY /B D:*.GHO G:*.GHx was used to create 4 files each time with x = A,B,C,D,E FC /B D:*.GHO G:*.GHx is used to compare the files 4 at a time. It takes about 2 1/2 minutes to compare the group of 4 files for a total of 5 GB being compared with 5 GB (which is why I said it must be current hardware). The result often (between 5% and 10% of the time) shows a single difference between the files at byte xxxxx35A (the xxxxx is random but the last 3 characters of the address are always the same) with the two hex characters for each byte being different by 1 bit: e.g. 22 vs 32 about 25% of the time with an extra bit 4 e.g. 94 vs 84 about 75% of the time with a missing bit 4 I probably performed between 75 and 150 FC commands during which about 200 comparisons were made. I collected about 15 cases when a difference was noted. I can also perform an MD5 valuation of each file. So long as the available memory is exceeded (relative to the size of the previous files that were just tested), the MD5 valuation takes about 40 seconds for a 2 GB file and the disk sense light is on the whole time. If the same file is repeated for the MD5 valuation, the disk sense light is always off and the MD5 valuation takes about 9 seconds. The MD5 valuation is probably incorrect between 5% and 10% of the time. Since repeating the MD5 valuation on a different copy of the same file provides a cross check, when what seems like an incorrect MD5 valuation appears, checking with a different copy will almost always (19 times out of 20) show the correct MD5 valuation, then when the MD5 valuation is redone on the same file, the probably correct MD5 valuation appears, i.e. different from the just previous MD5 valuation on the same file. However, if the MD5 valuation is done again without flushing the cached copy, then the same memory contents seem to be used each subsequent time yielding the same (probably incorrect if that was the situation) MD5 valuation from the last time that the disk drive was actually read. My assumption is that as the (now incorrect) byte was read into memory, one of the bytes of RAM (possibly the same one each time) gets an extra bit set or misses one of the bits being set - always that same bit 4 of course. Other reasons may also have caused the byte in RAM to be incorrect. However, once incorrect, it seems to stay the same until it is modified again. So it does not seem to be a problem with reading RAM. So (FINALLY) this is my question: If the cached copy (probably incorrect) of a hard drive file (which is used to perform the MD5 valuation) stays the same, what is the probability that it is a problem with RAM memory as opposed to a hard drive or controller error? Since the error suggests that it is a single bit causing the problem (the same bit seems to be either on or off), my intuition would seem to suggest that the RAM memory has a problem. However, since my hardware experience is minimal, I am asking for suggestions as to what can be done and the order they should be attempted: (a) Replace the RAM memory (b) Replace the disk drive(s) (c) Replace the motherboard with the controller problem (d) Something else I have not thought of I know that Tony Duell would want to fix the component, but I doubt that is even possible in this case. Does anyone have any different suggestions? Thank you for any help and please suggest any different tests that might help to locate or better identify the cause of the problem. Finally, just to make sure, does this problem constitute a serious difficulty which should (must?) be fixed before any actual use is made of this new system? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From bdwheele at indiana.edu Mon Sep 8 10:52:50 2008 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 11:52:50 -0400 Subject: Files are Different Problem In-Reply-To: <48C54884.9090902@compsys.to> References: <48C54884.9090902@compsys.to> Message-ID: <1220889170.29130.26.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> Try running memtest86 on the machine. It'll give the RAM a thorough workout and you'll b eable to isolate whether or not its the RAM which is the problem... Brian On Mon, 2008-09-08 at 11:45 -0400, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > I spent 3 hours this morning attempting to figure out where to start > looking. > The problem shows up as a difference between files which are almost > certainly identical - except in one copy which I am confident is different > all of the time by the specified byte (caused at the time the copy was > made). > > Rather than attempting to hide that this is current PC hardware, it is > probably best to list: > Hardware: Intel E8200 CPU (2.66 GHz), 2 * 2 GB memory in > ASUS P5B motherboard with 2 * Seagate 320 GB SATA II hard drives > Software: Windows XP with probably SP3 > > The problem shows up between 5% to 10% of the time with very > large files of greater than 1/2 GB to 2 GB in total size. The command: > COPY /B D:*.GHO G:*.GHx > was used to create 4 files each time with x = A,B,C,D,E > FC /B D:*.GHO G:*.GHx > is used to compare the files 4 at a time. It takes about 2 1/2 minutes to > compare the group of 4 files for a total of 5 GB being compared with > 5 GB (which is why I said it must be current hardware). The result > often (between 5% and 10% of the time) shows a single difference > between the files at byte xxxxx35A (the xxxxx is random but the last > 3 characters of the address are always the same) with the two hex > characters for each byte being different by 1 bit: > e.g. 22 vs 32 about 25% of the time with an extra bit 4 > e.g. 94 vs 84 about 75% of the time with a missing bit 4 > > I probably performed between 75 and 150 FC commands > during which about 200 comparisons were made. I collected > about 15 cases when a difference was noted. > > I can also perform an MD5 valuation of each file. So long > as the available memory is exceeded (relative to the size > of the previous files that were just tested), the MD5 valuation > takes about 40 seconds for a 2 GB file and the disk sense > light is on the whole time. If the same file is repeated for > the MD5 valuation, the disk sense light is always off and the > MD5 valuation takes about 9 seconds. The MD5 valuation > is probably incorrect between 5% and 10% of the time. Since > repeating the MD5 valuation on a different copy of the same file > provides a cross check, when what seems like an incorrect MD5 > valuation appears, checking with a different copy will almost always > (19 times out of 20) show the correct MD5 valuation, then when > the MD5 valuation is redone on the same file, the probably > correct MD5 valuation appears, i.e. different from the just previous > MD5 valuation on the same file. > > However, if the MD5 valuation is done again without flushing the > cached copy, then the same memory contents seem to be used > each subsequent time yielding the same (probably incorrect if > that was the situation) MD5 valuation from the last time that the > disk drive was actually read. My assumption is that as the (now > incorrect) byte was read into memory, one of the bytes of RAM > (possibly the same one each time) gets an extra bit set or misses > one of the bits being set - always that same bit 4 of course. Other > reasons may also have caused the byte in RAM to be incorrect. > However, once incorrect, it seems to stay the same until it is > modified again. So it does not seem to be a problem with > reading RAM. > > So (FINALLY) this is my question: > > If the cached copy (probably incorrect) of a hard drive file (which > is used to perform the MD5 valuation) stays > the same, what is the probability that it is a problem with RAM > memory as opposed to a hard drive or controller error? Since > the error suggests that it is a single bit causing the problem (the > same bit seems to be either on or off), my intuition would seem > to suggest that the RAM memory has a problem. However, since > my hardware experience is minimal, I am asking for suggestions > as to what can be done and the order they should be attempted: > (a) Replace the RAM memory > (b) Replace the disk drive(s) > (c) Replace the motherboard with the controller problem > (d) Something else I have not thought of > > I know that Tony Duell would want to fix the component, but > I doubt that is even possible in this case. > > Does anyone have any different suggestions? > > Thank you for any help and please suggest any different tests > that might help to locate or better identify the cause of the problem. > > Finally, just to make sure, does this problem constitute a serious > difficulty which should (must?) be fixed before any actual use is made > of this new system? > > Sincerely yours, > > Jerome Fine From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Mon Sep 8 10:51:48 2008 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 11:51:48 -0400 Subject: Unknown 64pin ceramic TRW Chip... References: <48C45185.2080709@radiorobots.com> <48C3F611.15411.135A5619@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <18629.18964.942346.177277@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Chuck" == Chuck Guzis writes: Chuck> ISTR one of the early rags (Kilobaud? Microsystems?) Chuck> describing a board using one of these things, a 16x16 Chuck> multiplier by TRW (MPY-16?), circa 1977-78 or so. ISTR the Chuck> thing was really power hungry. I may still have the data sheet. Yes, power hungry indeed -- ECL, I believe. I was trying to use it for a waveform style synthesizer, in 1977. Didn't happen but it could have worked. paul From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Mon Sep 8 10:57:32 2008 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 11:57:32 -0400 Subject: Paper tapes+rubber bands+30 yrs = mess References: <20080903141249.GA15792@n0jcf.net> <0cef01c90ddf$a6a1a7d0$06fea8c0@portajara> <48BE6009.7478.2EB6B799@cclist.sydex.com> <200809031809.OAA01471@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <18629.19308.447787.208208@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "der" == der Mouse writes: >> I think you're referring to benzine (*not* benzene) der> What's the difference? I thought this was just another spelling der> variant between UK English and North America English. (Indeed, der> when I ask dictionary.com for "benzene", one of the entries says der> "[a]lso called benzine".) Interesting, because that's wrong. "Benzine" (give or take a vowel or two) is the common word in many European languages for what Brits call "petrol" and USians call "gasoline". When people look for the solvent rather than the fuel it might be refined slightly differently -- or, quite likely, just taxed differently. For that application I'd probably grab a can of camping stove fuel (forgot what that's called). Benzene (in some countries more likely to be called by the obsolete name "benzol") is C6H6, a completely unrelated substance in spite of the similarity in names. I suspect benzene would dissolve old rubber messes, too. But you're likely to have a hard time finding it nowadays; it's not politically correct. My personal choice for "universal solvent" is lacquer thinner, which is a blend of toluene, acetone (or methyl ethyl ketone?) and some other stuff. It dissolves most plastics and many other things. Nasty stuff, but very effective at cleaning things if you're careful not to use it on vulnerable substrates. For example, it takes off old adhesive labels instantly. paul From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Sep 8 11:13:22 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 12:13:22 -0400 Subject: IBM memory available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200809081213.22982.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 08 September 2008, Antonio Carlini wrote: > Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > I've got a bunch of DIMMs pulled from RS/6000 SP hardware available > > for not much cost. The memory is 3rd party (Kingston) 512MB DIMMs > > that were used in Purdue's SP high node systems. Third-party > > memory doesn't seem to be worth much, so I'm not asking too much, > > say $10+shipping per set of 8 or so. > > > > These are equivalent to IBM FRU 07L9758, F/C 4121 or 4100 > > This http://www.memoryx.net/4100mx.html suggests that this is a > 200-pin SDRAM DIMM. Is it really? 168, 184 or 240 I could believe > but I've never heard of a 200-pin DIMM before now. Yes, 200-pin. IBM proprietary, they have ECC plus an extra chip (so, 80 bits wide, I think) that the hardware will swap in if it finds too many ECC errors. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 8 11:24:17 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 09:24:17 -0700 Subject: Paper tapes+rubber bands+30 yrs = mess In-Reply-To: <48C519E7.4090800@dunnington.plus.com> References: <20080903141249.GA15792@n0jcf.net>, <200809031809.OAA01471@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>, <48C519E7.4090800@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <48C4EF41.31736.12A2E2@cclist.sydex.com> I think we're seeing the vomitus from the most recent episode of server flu. > On 03/09/2008 19:06, der Mouse wrote: > >> I think you're referring to benzine (*not* benzene) > der Mouse's message only just appeared in my inbox, interestingly. The first line was mine, not DM's. I also noted that benzine is referred to as "petroleum ether" in the US and occasionally "naphtha". Curiously, "petroleum ether" isn't an ether at all, but more a term of art. Regardless, the stuff is a somewhat inexact mixture of high-volatility petroleum fractions. But *not* benzene, which is almost as difficult to obtain as carbon tet or Freon TF nowadays (either of which might work also). I recommended contact cement thinner (contains other solvents in addition to petroleum either) as a readily-available substitute. And it dissolves latex. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 8 11:28:20 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 09:28:20 -0700 Subject: [Toronto Canada] - AES Plus free for collection In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48C4F034.22283.1658CD@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Sep 2008 at 20:03, John S wrote: > I have had an email from an owner of an AES Plus system, who is > looking to give it away to a good home. If someone does collect this thing, please drop me a line. I've had a floppy in my "waiting for more information" pile for a couple of years and would like to get it solved. This system may also have been marketed under the Lanier marque in the US. I suspect that the floppies may be MMFM, but I don't have enough of a sample to verify it. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 8 11:33:17 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 09:33:17 -0700 Subject: Paper tapes+rubber bands+30 yrs = mess In-Reply-To: <20080903141249.GA15792@n0jcf.net> References: <20080903141249.GA15792@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <48C4F15D.956.1AE066@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Sep 2008 at 9:12, Chris Elmquist wrote: > Parents, talk to your children about rubber bands... If you have a need for "rubber bands", investigate "plastibands" at your local office supply place. They're not latex, but rather a polymer (polyurethane?) that doesn't degrade (as quickly as latex) and can also be used to replace broken tension bands in DC tape carts as well as drive belts on a few minifloppy drives. Cheers, Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Sep 8 11:55:50 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 09:55:50 -0700 Subject: Nuclear Data ND-812 info... Message-ID: <48C55916.8030807@bitsavers.org> > Anyone know anything else about these things? Nuclear Data was a Chicago company that built various bits of instrumentation for the nuclear industry. I have heard they were the company whose computers were at Three Mile Island, but have no documentation on that. The ND-812 front panel is light/dark green as well. I have one in poor condition. The CPU is wire wrapped. There are PCBs for the core memory system. Bunker-Ramo used them in a point of sale system for supermarkets, mostly in the Chicago area. Parts for them would show up at hamfests in the mid-late 70's there, which was the first time I saw one. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Sep 8 11:57:50 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 09:57:50 -0700 Subject: ECC on MFM drive Message-ID: <48C5598E.5020006@bitsavers.org> > I have ST251 drive and an Adaptec controller. Look at the chip set data sheets on bitsavers. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Sep 8 12:17:34 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 11:17:34 -0600 Subject: Paper tapes+rubber bands+30 yrs = mess In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48C55E2E.3050404@jetnet.ab.ca> dwight elvey wrote: > I know how to make benzene. > Take acetylene and pressurize it to 4 atmospheres and bang, you > have benzene. With a catalyst, it can be done more sanely. > Dwight Bang is more fun... Now how do you make acetylene again... From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Sep 8 13:15:48 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 14:15:48 -0400 Subject: Paper tapes+rubber bands+30 yrs = mess In-Reply-To: <48C55E2E.3050404@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <48C55E2E.3050404@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <48C56BD4.1060702@gmail.com> bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > dwight elvey wrote: >> I know how to make benzene. >> Take acetylene and pressurize it to 4 atmospheres and bang, you >> have benzene. With a catalyst, it can be done more sanely. >> Dwight > Bang is more fun... Now how do you make acetylene again... Take a load of calcium carbide and put it in water. Top with a gas trap. Peace... Sridhar From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Sep 8 13:31:08 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 11:31:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Paper tapes+rubber bands+30 yrs = mess In-Reply-To: <48C4EF41.31736.12A2E2@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20080903141249.GA15792@n0jcf.net>, <200809031809.OAA01471@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>, <48C519E7.4090800@dunnington.plus.com> <48C4EF41.31736.12A2E2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 8 Sep 2008, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I recommended contact cement thinner (contains other solvents in > addition to petroleum either) as a readily-available substitute. And > it dissolves latex. Lighter fluid may also be helpful. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Sep 8 14:49:31 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 11:49:31 -0800 Subject: vac tubes / was Re: Schematics of Atanasoff-Berry References: <0K6S008ZUOZ5NKV0@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <48C581CB.387C09BC@cs.ubc.ca> Allison wrote: > 12AX7 at 12.6V @.15A (1.8VA) or parallel connected 6.3V @ .3a and I consider > that trivial. A transformer sufficient to run 10 of those (18VA) is under > 2-3pounds. The average 12V at 1A wall wart can run six of those with a comfortable > margin. We are not talking a lot of power yet. If we are in the realm of 100 > or 1000 of those then we have some power needs to deal with.. The solution > there would be to use instead of one 12.6V transformer that can give 150A we > can use ten more readily available transformers of a mere 15A (189VA) which > is more manageable anyway. >... > Another example is 40 years ago I had a Beckman EPUT (events per unit time) > counter that used the then typical tube era 5mhz ring counter decades with > neon readout (0-9 with NE2 type neon behind them) (6 ofthem) plus timebase > for a whopping 42 tubes mostly of the 12AX7 types and it was big (19" rack > width by 11" high) but I distinctly remember it as barely 40 pounds > considering it was fully enclosed in a steel case and each decade > was in its own case that plugged into a matching socket in the cabnet. On the other hand, the HP524 8-digit 10MHz counter (just shy of 100 tubes) I have is well over 100 lbs. Due to the combination of size and volume I can just barely wrangle it up and down the stairs without assistance. (As much as I like them they are boat anchors and a PITA.) Aluminum chassis, I expect the 2 power transformers account for well over half the weight. > Powering tubes in that class (ECC83s) is trivial compared to the day of the > ABC where typical dual triode was maybe in the class of 6SN7 (6.3V at .6A) or > worse. Early tubes where power hungry for heater power. This is not an issue of early vs later tube developments. The 6.3V @ 0.3A 'standard' for signal tubes goes back to the early 1930's and the introduction of the first series of 6.3V tubes (75,78,6A7..). The 12V at 150mA of the the later 12V tubes follows directly from this (double V,half I,same heat). The distinction between the 12AX7/ECC83 and 6SN7 regarding filament requirements is one of capability not age. The 6SN7 is a significantly higher power tube (5W/plate max dissipation) than the 12AX7 (1.2W). The ABC used 6C8 duo-triodes which are 6.3V @ 0.3A. The 12AX7 and 6C8 are more similar in terms of characteristics than the 12AX7 vs 6SN7. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Sep 8 14:15:40 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 12:15:40 -0700 Subject: ECC on MFM drive In-Reply-To: <21539.18327.qm@web55001.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <21539.18327.qm@web55001.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48C579DC.7010806@brouhaha.com> Alexander Sholohov wrote: > Hello, > > Could someone help me understand the algorithm used > for data integrity check on ST251 MFM drive. > > I have ST251 drive and an Adaptec controller. Also I > have ability to view recorded data in raw format. > > On the track I see ID field block protected by CCITT > CRC16. And the data block protected by some 32-bit > ECC. This is definitely not a CRC32. The algorithm in > general looks like shift register for polynomial > multiplication with polynomial equal to > x32+x28+x26+x19+x17+x10+x6+x2+1 . It's a polynomial code not unlike a CRC. (Note that a CRC works as an error-correcting code, but aren't as good at burst error detection/correction as codes designed for that purpose.) It could be a BCH code. Older disk subsystems on "big iron" used Fire code, but I'm not aware of that even having been used on small Winchester drives. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polynomial_code http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BCH_code Modern drives use Reed-Solomon code, which is a specific case of a BCH code, but they use multiple interleaved code blocks for each disk block. Interleave greatly enhances the detection and correction capabilities. Eric From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 8 15:04:01 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 13:04:01 -0700 Subject: ECC on MFM drive In-Reply-To: <48C579DC.7010806@brouhaha.com> References: <21539.18327.qm@web55001.mail.re4.yahoo.com>, <48C579DC.7010806@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <48C522C1.29104.DBCF39@cclist.sydex.com> You might want to have a look at the datasheet for the WD1100-06 CRC/ECC generator at: http://bitsavers.vt100.net/pdf/westernDigital/_dataBooks/wd1984storage Products_02.pdf I don't know if the same polynomial is used for the Adaptec controller, but the degree is the same. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 8 14:41:38 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 12:41:38 -0700 Subject: Paper tapes+rubber bands+30 yrs = mess In-Reply-To: <48C56BD4.1060702@gmail.com> References: , <48C55E2E.3050404@jetnet.ab.ca>, <48C56BD4.1060702@gmail.com> Message-ID: <48C51D82.14127.C75076@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Sep 2008 at 14:15, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Take a load of calcium carbide and put it in water. Top with a gas trap. ...and to make calcium carbide, take some lime(obtained by roasting limestone) and some coke (obtained by roasting coal) drop in an electric furnace... And to make coal... Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Sep 8 16:23:03 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 15:23:03 -0600 Subject: Paper tapes+rubber bands+30 yrs = mess In-Reply-To: <48C51D82.14127.C75076@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <48C55E2E.3050404@jetnet.ab.ca>, <48C56BD4.1060702@gmail.com> <48C51D82.14127.C75076@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <48C597B7.2080409@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > And to make coal... > You find a old swamp, and cover it for few million years ... From als at thangorodrim.de Mon Sep 8 16:19:19 2008 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 23:19:19 +0200 Subject: Paper tapes+rubber bands+30 yrs = mess In-Reply-To: <48C51D82.14127.C75076@cclist.sydex.com> References: <48C56BD4.1060702@gmail.com> <48C51D82.14127.C75076@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20080908211919.GA11556@thangorodrim.de> On Mon, Sep 08, 2008 at 12:41:38PM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8 Sep 2008 at 14:15, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > > Take a load of calcium carbide and put it in water. Top with a gas trap. > > ...and to make calcium carbide, take some lime(obtained by roasting > limestone) and some coke (obtained by roasting coal) drop in an > electric furnace... > > And to make coal... Plant some nice swampy forests, let them grow for a few hundred thousand years (with the old trees toppling and sinking into the mud). Then bury the whole mess with a kilometer or so of dirt, apply plenty of pressure and some moderate heat for a few million years. Now dig it up again ;-) SCNR, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Sep 8 16:42:29 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 15:42:29 -0600 Subject: Paper tapes+rubber bands+30 yrs = mess In-Reply-To: <20080908211919.GA11556@thangorodrim.de> References: <48C56BD4.1060702@gmail.com> <48C51D82.14127.C75076@cclist.sydex.com> <20080908211919.GA11556@thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <48C59C45.4090503@jetnet.ab.ca> Alexander Schreiber wrote: > Plant some nice swampy forests, let them grow for a few hundred thousand > years (with the old trees toppling and sinking into the mud). Then bury > the whole mess with a kilometer or so of dirt, apply plenty of pressure > and some moderate heat for a few million years. Now dig it up again ;-) > > And you wonder what to do with all the swamp land you bought in florida. :) > SCNR, > Alex. > From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Sep 8 16:43:12 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 17:43:12 -0400 Subject: Paper tapes+rubber bands+30 yrs = mess In-Reply-To: <48C597B7.2080409@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <48C55E2E.3050404@jetnet.ab.ca>, <48C56BD4.1060702@gmail.com> <48C51D82.14127.C75076@cclist.sydex.com> <48C597B7.2080409@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <48C59C70.50702@gmail.com> bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> And to make coal... >> > You find a old swamp, and cover it for few million years ... I don't believe it takes quite that long. Peace... Sridhar From fu3.org at gmail.com Mon Sep 8 16:50:52 2008 From: fu3.org at gmail.com (ch) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 23:50:52 +0200 Subject: Paper tapes+rubber bands+30 yrs = mess In-Reply-To: <48C59C70.50702@gmail.com> References: <48C55E2E.3050404@jetnet.ab.ca> <48C56BD4.1060702@gmail.com> <48C51D82.14127.C75076@cclist.sydex.com> <48C597B7.2080409@jetnet.ab.ca> <48C59C70.50702@gmail.com> Message-ID: <310f50ab0809081450w245c6292nf8b4cef5fa615ab5@mail.gmail.com> 2008/9/8 Sridhar Ayengar : > bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >> >> Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> >>> And to make coal... >>> >> >> You find a old swamp, and cover it for few million years ... > > I don't believe it takes quite that long. > > Peace... Sridhar > 640k years should be enough for anybody. From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Sep 8 17:01:46 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 23:01:46 +0100 Subject: Paper tapes+rubber bands+30 yrs = mess In-Reply-To: <48C4EF41.31736.12A2E2@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20080903141249.GA15792@n0jcf.net>, <200809031809.OAA01471@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>, <48C519E7.4090800@dunnington.plus.com> <48C4EF41.31736.12A2E2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <48C5A0CA.7030800@dunnington.plus.com> On 08/09/2008 17:24, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I think we're seeing the vomitus from the most recent episode of > server flu. > >> On 03/09/2008 19:06, der Mouse wrote: >>>> I think you're referring to benzine (*not* benzene) > >> der Mouse's message only just appeared in my inbox, interestingly. > > The first line was mine, not DM's. I know, but he didn't attribute the quote, so neither did my quote :-) I did double-quote it, though :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From als at thangorodrim.de Mon Sep 8 17:11:19 2008 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 00:11:19 +0200 Subject: Paper tapes+rubber bands+30 yrs = mess In-Reply-To: <48C59C70.50702@gmail.com> References: <48C56BD4.1060702@gmail.com> <48C51D82.14127.C75076@cclist.sydex.com> <48C597B7.2080409@jetnet.ab.ca> <48C59C70.50702@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080908221118.GB11556@thangorodrim.de> On Mon, Sep 08, 2008 at 05:43:12PM -0400, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > >Chuck Guzis wrote: > >>And to make coal... > >> > >You find a old swamp, and cover it for few million years ... > > I don't believe it takes quite that long. It takes even longer. Most black coal dates back to the Carbon era (about 300 .. 360 million years ago). Brown coal, which hasn't changed that much from the original wood-in-a-swamp mix (we sure found plenty of chunks of wood in it) is much younger, from the Tertiary era (about 2.6 to 65 million years ago). Regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From derschjo at mail.msu.edu Mon Sep 8 17:36:05 2008 From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 15:36:05 -0700 Subject: Datasheet for Intel 1103 DRAM? Message-ID: <0C8B5236-4DDE-4BDC-B5F7-9F0E97853339@mail.msu.edu> Anyone have a copy of this in digital format? Can't find this on the 'net. Trying to work out what voltages the power supply in the ND-821 is supposed to put out. From testing, it looks like 5v, 18v, and 24v. Knowing what the RAM requires will help nail this down, since it's powered separately from the main logic. Thanks, Josh From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Sep 8 17:37:17 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 18:37:17 -0400 Subject: Paper tapes+rubber bands+30 yrs = mess In-Reply-To: <310f50ab0809081450w245c6292nf8b4cef5fa615ab5@mail.gmail.com> References: <48C55E2E.3050404@jetnet.ab.ca> <48C56BD4.1060702@gmail.com> <48C51D82.14127.C75076@cclist.sydex.com> <48C597B7.2080409@jetnet.ab.ca> <48C59C70.50702@gmail.com> <310f50ab0809081450w245c6292nf8b4cef5fa615ab5@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48C5A91D.7020509@gmail.com> ch wrote: > 2008/9/8 Sridhar Ayengar : >> bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >>> Chuck Guzis wrote: >>>> And to make coal... >>>> >>> You find a old swamp, and cover it for few million years ... >> I don't believe it takes quite that long. >> >> Peace... Sridhar >> > > 640k years should be enough for anybody. Excellent! Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Sep 8 17:40:09 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 18:40:09 -0400 Subject: Paper tapes+rubber bands+30 yrs = mess In-Reply-To: <20080908221118.GB11556@thangorodrim.de> References: <48C56BD4.1060702@gmail.com> <48C51D82.14127.C75076@cclist.sydex.com> <48C597B7.2080409@jetnet.ab.ca> <48C59C70.50702@gmail.com> <20080908221118.GB11556@thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <48C5A9C9.7040700@gmail.com> Alexander Schreiber wrote: > On Mon, Sep 08, 2008 at 05:43:12PM -0400, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >>> Chuck Guzis wrote: >>>> And to make coal... >>>> >>> You find a old swamp, and cover it for few million years ... >> I don't believe it takes quite that long. > > It takes even longer. Most black coal dates back to the Carbon era > (about 300 .. 360 million years ago). Brown coal, which hasn't changed > that much from the original wood-in-a-swamp mix (we sure found plenty of > chunks of wood in it) is much younger, from the Tertiary era (about 2.6 > to 65 million years ago). That is, if there isn't any metamorphic process of volcanic origin involved. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 8 18:05:55 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 16:05:55 -0700 Subject: Datasheet for Intel 1103 DRAM? In-Reply-To: <0C8B5236-4DDE-4BDC-B5F7-9F0E97853339@mail.msu.edu> References: <0C8B5236-4DDE-4BDC-B5F7-9F0E97853339@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <48C54D63.20750.182558C@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Sep 2008 at 15:36, Josh Dersch wrote: > > Anyone have a copy of this in digital format? Can't find this on the > 'net. > > Trying to work out what voltages the power supply in the ND-821 is > supposed to put out. From testing, it looks like 5v, 18v, and 24v. > Knowing what the RAM requires will help nail this down, since it's > powered separately from the main logic. Take a look in the Intel Memory Design Handbook from 1973 on bitsavers. There's a whole chapter on the 1103, complete with specs: http://bitsavers.vt100.net/pdf/intel/_dataBooks/MemoryDesignHandbook_A ug73.pdf You mean that you're not going to turn your 1103 into a tie-tack or embed it in a block of resin as a keychain fob? YOU'RE ACTUALLY GOING TO USE IT?! :) Cheers, Chuck From IanK at vulcan.com Mon Sep 8 18:08:28 2008 From: IanK at vulcan.com (Ian King) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 16:08:28 -0700 Subject: Datasheet for Intel 1103 DRAM? In-Reply-To: <0C8B5236-4DDE-4BDC-B5F7-9F0E97853339@mail.msu.edu> References: <0C8B5236-4DDE-4BDC-B5F7-9F0E97853339@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: I probably have it in dead tree format. I'll check and let you know - Ian -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Josh Dersch Sent: Monday, September 08, 2008 3:36 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Datasheet for Intel 1103 DRAM? Anyone have a copy of this in digital format? Can't find this on the 'net. Trying to work out what voltages the power supply in the ND-821 is supposed to put out. From testing, it looks like 5v, 18v, and 24v. Knowing what the RAM requires will help nail this down, since it's powered separately from the main logic. Thanks, Josh From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Sep 8 18:14:16 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2008 00:14:16 +0100 Subject: Datasheet for Intel 1103 DRAM? In-Reply-To: <0C8B5236-4DDE-4BDC-B5F7-9F0E97853339@mail.msu.edu> References: <0C8B5236-4DDE-4BDC-B5F7-9F0E97853339@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <48C5B1C8.1040402@dunnington.plus.com> On 08/09/2008 23:36, Josh Dersch wrote: > > Anyone have a copy of this in digital format? Can't find this on the 'net. Not the data sheet, but it's listed in my 1976 data book... > Trying to work out what voltages the power supply in the ND-821 is > supposed to put out. From testing, it looks like 5v, 18v, and 24v. Pin 11 is Vdd: Vdd = 0V Pin 17 is Vss: Vss = 16V +/- 5% Pin 10 is Vbb: Vbb - Vss = 3V to 4V 1103-1 (faster version) and 1103A (enhanced, needs no precharge) are the same. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Mon Sep 8 19:13:30 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 00:13:30 +0000 Subject: Does anyone have an electronic copy of the "OS/8 Software Support Manual"? Message-ID: <20080909001330.GA1780@usap.gov> Hi, all, I have my sbc6120 here and wanted to do a little OS/8 programming, but I think I'm stumped for a particular bit of doco - according to the "OS/8 System Reference Manual" (DEC-8-OSRMA-A-D), the User Service Routine is documented in the "OS/8 Software Support Manual" (DEC-8-OSSMA-A-D). I've found many OS/8 docs on Highgate and Bitsavers (DEC-S8-OSSMB-A-D, the 1974 "OS/8 Handbook", memos, etc.), but not that exact one. The reason why it matters is that if you want to do file I/O, directory lookups, etc., you use the USR. For stuff that doesn't depend on OS/8 filesystem operations, there's plenty of info out there for FORTRAN, BASIC, FOCAL, assembler, etc. Imagine trying to program in UNIX without knowing how to setup and call stdio routines. That's kinda where I'm at. I've found one or two narrow examples where some code fragments call the USR for a particular function, but I really just need the Software Support Manual. Thanks for any leads, -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 9-Sep-2008 at 00:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -80.5 F (-62.5 C) Windchill -112.5 F (-80.3 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 7.1 kts Grid 104 Barometer 672.9 mb (10897 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Mon Sep 8 19:26:39 2008 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 17:26:39 -0700 Subject: Datasheet for Intel 1103 DRAM? References: <0C8B5236-4DDE-4BDC-B5F7-9F0E97853339@mail.msu.edu> Message-ID: <001901c91212$ba411af0$0301a8c0@hal9000> Josh, It is a little complicated, but here it is; For a straight N/C part, Vss = 16 Volts and Vbb = 19 Volts. The spec is a little hard to interpret because it says Vbb - Vss = 3 to 4 Volts. But obviously if you subtract 19 - 16 Volts you get 3 Volts. For the other versions; 1103 -1 = +19 and +22 Volts 1103 -A = +16 and +19 Volts 1103 -A1 = +19 and +22 Volts 1103 -A2 = +19 and +22 Volts Confused yet ? Hope this helps ! Best regards, Steven > > Anyone have a copy of this in digital format? Can't find this on the > 'net. > > Trying to work out what voltages the power supply in the ND-821 is > supposed to put out. From testing, it looks like 5v, 18v, and 24v. > Knowing what the RAM requires will help nail this down, since it's > powered separately from the main logic. > > Thanks, > Josh From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Sep 8 19:47:27 2008 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 20:47:27 -0400 Subject: [SPAM] - Re: Files are Different Problem - Found word(s) list error XXX in the Text body In-Reply-To: <1220889170.29130.26.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> References: <48C54884.9090902@compsys.to> <1220889170.29130.26.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> Message-ID: <48C5C79F.6080903@compsys.to> >Brian Wheeler wrote: >Try running memtest86 on the machine. It'll give the RAM a thorough >workout and you'll b eable to isolate whether or not its the RAM which >is the problem... > > Jerome Fine replies: I attempted to search for any WXP programs named *mem*.type and *test*.type with type being exe, com, bat or lnk. I found only mem.exe which only seem to work for DOS. Can anyone suggest a RAM testing option? I left the rest of the information and my questions in case anyone else can help? Tony, have you any suggestions? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine >Brian > > >>On Mon, 2008-09-08 at 11:45 -0400, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > >>I spent 3 hours this morning attempting to figure out where to start >>looking. >>The problem shows up as a difference between files which are almost >>certainly identical - except in one copy which I am confident is different >>all of the time by the specified byte (caused at the time the copy was >>made). >> >>Rather than attempting to hide that this is current PC hardware, it is >>probably best to list: >>Hardware: Intel E8200 CPU (2.66 GHz), 2 * 2 GB memory in >>ASUS P5B motherboard with 2 * Seagate 320 GB SATA II hard drives >>Software: Windows XP with probably SP3 >> >>The problem shows up between 5% to 10% of the time with very >>large files of greater than 1/2 GB to 2 GB in total size. The command: >>COPY /B D:*.GHO G:*.GHx >>was used to create 4 files each time with x = A,B,C,D,E >>FC /B D:*.GHO G:*.GHx >>is used to compare the files 4 at a time. It takes about 2 1/2 minutes to >>compare the group of 4 files for a total of 5 GB being compared with >>5 GB (which is why I said it must be current hardware). The result >>often (between 5% and 10% of the time) shows a single difference >>between the files at byte xxxxx35A (the xxxxx is random but the last >>3 characters of the address are always the same) with the two hex >>characters for each byte being different by 1 bit: >>e.g. 22 vs 32 about 25% of the time with an extra bit 4 >>e.g. 94 vs 84 about 75% of the time with a missing bit 4 >> >>I probably performed between 75 and 150 FC commands >>during which about 200 comparisons were made. I collected >>about 15 cases when a difference was noted. >> >>I can also perform an MD5 valuation of each file. So long >>as the available memory is exceeded (relative to the size >>of the previous files that were just tested), the MD5 valuation >>takes about 40 seconds for a 2 GB file and the disk sense >>light is on the whole time. If the same file is repeated for >>the MD5 valuation, the disk sense light is always off and the >>MD5 valuation takes about 9 seconds. The MD5 valuation >>is probably incorrect between 5% and 10% of the time. Since >>repeating the MD5 valuation on a different copy of the same file >>provides a cross check, when what seems like an incorrect MD5 >>valuation appears, checking with a different copy will almost always >>(19 times out of 20) show the correct MD5 valuation, then when >>the MD5 valuation is redone on the same file, the probably >>correct MD5 valuation appears, i.e. different from the just previous >>MD5 valuation on the same file. >> >>However, if the MD5 valuation is done again without flushing the >>cached copy, then the same memory contents seem to be used >>each subsequent time yielding the same (probably incorrect if >>that was the situation) MD5 valuation from the last time that the >>disk drive was actually read. My assumption is that as the (now >>incorrect) byte was read into memory, one of the bytes of RAM >>(possibly the same one each time) gets an extra bit set or misses >>one of the bits being set - always that same bit 4 of course. Other >>reasons may also have caused the byte in RAM to be incorrect. >>However, once incorrect, it seems to stay the same until it is >>modified again. So it does not seem to be a problem with >>reading RAM. >> >>So (FINALLY) this is my question: >> >>If the cached copy (probably incorrect) of a hard drive file (which >>is used to perform the MD5 valuation) stays >>the same, what is the probability that it is a problem with RAM >>memory as opposed to a hard drive or controller error? Since >>the error suggests that it is a single bit causing the problem (the >>same bit seems to be either on or off), my intuition would seem >>to suggest that the RAM memory has a problem. However, since >>my hardware experience is minimal, I am asking for suggestions >>as to what can be done and the order they should be attempted: >>(a) Replace the RAM memory >>(b) Replace the disk drive(s) >>(c) Replace the motherboard with the controller problem >>(d) Something else I have not thought of >> >>I know that Tony Duell would want to fix the component, but >>I doubt that is even possible in this case. >> >>Does anyone have any different suggestions? >> >>Thank you for any help and please suggest any different tests >>that might help to locate or better identify the cause of the problem. >> >>Finally, just to make sure, does this problem constitute a serious >>difficulty which should (must?) be fixed before any actual use is made >>of this new system? >> From vrs at msn.com Mon Sep 8 19:58:56 2008 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 17:58:56 -0700 Subject: Does anyone have an electronic copy of the "OS/8 Software SupportManual"? References: <20080909001330.GA1780@usap.gov> Message-ID: > I have my sbc6120 here and wanted to do a little OS/8 programming, but I > think I'm stumped for a particular bit of doco - according to the "OS/8 > System Reference Manual" (DEC-8-OSRMA-A-D), the User Service Routine is > documented in the "OS/8 Software Support Manual" (DEC-8-OSSMA-A-D). I've > found many OS/8 docs on Highgate and Bitsavers (DEC-S8-OSSMB-A-D, the > 1974 "OS/8 Handbook", memos, etc.), but not that exact one. I also have lots of OSSMB but no OSSMA. > The reason why it matters is that if you want to do file I/O, directory > lookups, etc., you use the USR. For stuff that doesn't depend on OS/8 > filesystem operations, there's plenty of info out there for FORTRAN, > BASIC, FOCAL, assembler, etc. Imagine trying to program in UNIX without > knowing how to setup and call stdio routines. That's kinda where I'm > at. I've found one or two narrow examples where some code fragments > call the USR for a particular function, but I really just need the > Software Support Manual. OSSMB has some stuff about USR in chapter 2, and Appendix F has some code examples of how to do the usual stuff. Was there additional information in OSSMA? Google found http://www.pdp8.net/document.txt, which makes a cryptic reference to it. Maybe that means David has a copy? Vince From martinm at allwest.net Mon Sep 8 20:24:30 2008 From: martinm at allwest.net (Martin Marshall) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 19:24:30 -0600 Subject: Files are Different Problem In-Reply-To: <48C5C79F.6080903@compsys.to> Message-ID: <04077BCC2AA14AA6A566BDB0107D38BC@p4266> > Jerome Fine replies: > > I attempted to search for any WXP programs named *mem*.type and > *test*.type with > type being exe, com, bat or lnk. I found only mem.exe which > only seem > to work for DOS. > > Can anyone suggest a RAM testing option? > http://www.memtest86.com/download.htm Works quite well. Martin Marshall From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Sep 8 20:33:21 2008 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 18:33:21 -0700 Subject: Does anyone have an electronic copy of the "OS/8 SoftwareSupportManual"? In-Reply-To: References: <20080909001330.GA1780@usap.gov> Message-ID: > From: Vincent Slyngstad > Sent: Monday, September 08, 2008 5:59 PM >> I have my sbc6120 here and wanted to do a little OS/8 >> programming, but I think I'm stumped for a particular bit of >> doco - according to the "OS/8 System Reference Manual" >> (DEC-8-OSRMA-A-D), the User Service Routine is documented in >> the "OS/8 Software Support Manual" (DEC-8-OSSMA-A-D). I've >> found many OS/8 docs on Highgate and Bitsavers >> (DEC-S8-OSSMB-A-D, the 1974 "OS/8 Handbook", memos, etc.), but >> not that exact one. > I also have lots of OSSMB but no OSSMA. >> The reason why it matters is that if you want to do file I/O, >> directory lookups, etc., you use the USR. For stuff that >> doesn't depend on OS/8 filesystem operations, there's plenty >> of info out there for FORTRAN, BASIC, FOCAL, assembler, etc. >> Imagine trying to program in UNIX without knowing how to setup >> and call stdio routines. That's kinda where I'm at. I've >> found one or two narrow examples where some code fragments >> call the USR for a particular function, but I really just need >> the Software Support Manual. > OSSMB has some stuff about USR in chapter 2, and Appendix F has > some code examples of how to do the usual stuff. > Was there additional information in OSSMA? I have access to hardcopy of two editions, at the computer room. I'll check tomorrow and let everyone know. Rich Alderson Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 8 20:48:17 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 18:48:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [SPAM] - Re: Files are Different Problem - Found word(s) list error XXX in the Text body In-Reply-To: <48C5C79F.6080903@compsys.to> References: <48C54884.9090902@compsys.to> <1220889170.29130.26.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> <48C5C79F.6080903@compsys.to> Message-ID: <20080908184130.L59018@shell.lmi.net> > >Try running memtest86 on the machine. It'll give the RAM a thorough > > I attempted to search for any WXP programs named *mem*.type and > *test*.type with > type being exe, com, bat or lnk. I found only mem.exe which only seem > to work for DOS. Did you try http://www.memtest86.com From rivie at ridgenet.net Mon Sep 8 21:09:11 2008 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 19:09:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Does anyone have an electronic copy of the "OS/8 Software Support Manual"? In-Reply-To: <20080909001330.GA1780@usap.gov> References: <20080909001330.GA1780@usap.gov> Message-ID: On Tue, 9 Sep 2008, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I have my sbc6120 here and wanted to do a little OS/8 programming, but I > think I'm stumped for a particular bit of doco - according to the "OS/8 > System Reference Manual" (DEC-8-OSRMA-A-D), the User Service Routine is > documented in the "OS/8 Software Support Manual" (DEC-8-OSSMA-A-D). I've > found many OS/8 docs on Highgate and Bitsavers (DEC-S8-OSSMB-A-D, the > 1974 "OS/8 Handbook", memos, etc.), but not that exact one. I have most of it HTMLized at http://anachronda.homeunix.com:8000/~rivie/os8/ssm/ssm.htm I just haven't gotten around to doing Appendix F yet. But what I've got is just what's in this PDF file: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp8/os8/DEC-S8-OSSMB-A-D_OS8_v3ssup.pdf which, oddly enough, you seem to mention in your note. -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Sep 8 21:27:44 2008 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 19:27:44 -0700 Subject: [SPAM] - Re: Files are Different Problem - Found word(s) list error XXX in the Text body In-Reply-To: <48C5C79F.6080903@compsys.to> References: <48C54884.9090902@compsys.to> <1220889170.29130.26.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> <48C5C79F.6080903@compsys.to> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90809081927k685d53desdfa38c055a7f7b47@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Sep 8, 2008 at 5:47 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > Can anyone suggest a RAM testing option? > An additional option: Windows Memory Diagnostic http://oca.microsoft.com/en/windiag.asp From bob at jfcl.com Mon Sep 8 22:15:08 2008 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 20:15:08 -0700 Subject: Does anyone have an electronic copy of the "OS/8 Software SupportManual"? In-Reply-To: References: <20080909001330.GA1780@usap.gov> Message-ID: <002901c9122a$43ab0e60$cb012b20$@com> >I also have lots of OSSMB but no OSSMA. The OSSMB is the only version I've ever seen, and AFAIK it tells you all there is to know (or rather, all that is known) about calling OS/8 "system services", including USR. Also, OSSMB says that it is for OS/8 version 3, so that may imply that the OSSMA was just an older version. There are several copies of OSSMB online - check vt100.net/manx for a list. Bob P.S. What are you going to write? I've got some suggestions if you need ideas :-) From frustum at pacbell.net Mon Sep 8 22:20:00 2008 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Mon, 08 Sep 2008 22:20:00 -0500 Subject: wang 1220 photos & info Message-ID: <48C5EB60.2000800@pacbell.net> About three weeks ago I asked whether a shipping quote I received was reasonable or not. The item arrived today, so I figured I'd tell how the story turned out. Bradley Slavik had a Wang 1220 that he wanted to give up to get back some room. He kindly gave me the machine, and even dropped it off at my sister's house. Then I had to find a way to get it from Chicago to Austin. Background: Wang shipped the first dedicated word processor in 1971, the Wang 1200. The one I received is a slightly later model. I received two suggestions for shippers: Craters & Freighters (I already knew about them) and Novas (gonovas.com). Both gave similar quotes, but this particular Novas office just made a bad impression. They would say they'd call back that afternoon, and then wouldn't, and I'd call them the next day, and they'd say, Oh, sorry, that was bad and I rarely do that. Once is understandable, but three times in a row doesn't make a good impression. So Craters and Freighters it was. They picked it up two Fridays ago, within 24 hours of me giving them the business. The following Tuesday they said it was crated and ready for shipment. Last Friday I got a call from the subcontracted shipper that they were in Texas and would deliver it today, Monday. They gave me a 3 hour window and delivered it in that window. The box was in good shape. Once I opened it I could see that the shipping container was well made and I had gotten my money's worth. After half an hour of pulling staples and folding large sheets of cardboard, I had my very own Wang 1220 word processor. It was born on Aug 1, 1973, making it a bit more than 35 years old. It cost $495 for the pick up, boxing, and delivery. While it has been rare for me to spend that much on any vintage equipment, I am happy with the way it worked out. I've posted a few photos, in small (50kB 640x480) and large (1MB 2300x1700). Eventually I'll have a web site, but this will have to do for now. http://www.thebattles.net/wang/1220/small http://www.thebattles.net/wang/1220/large Things to note, in no particular order: The 1220 is the second generation 1200. The first came out in 1971. Both systems used modified Selectrics for keying and printing. There is a famous story where Wang alleges that IBM purposely sabotaged the OEM'd Selectrics to damage Wang's reputation with customers. In any event, the 1200's were notoriously unreliable. A few years later, Wang took another shot at it with an 8080 & CRT based word processor system, which ended up making Wang quite profitable for a time. the "05-rear.jpg" photo shows the microcode program store. The microword is 44b wide, and the ALU is bit serial. The whole electronics package is on a hinged frame. You can see only the rear of the backplane the photo, but there are a handful of cards on the other side implementing the CPU. The microcode store is 2K words of 44b. The board holding the microcode also has a grid where diodes can be soldered in to allow patching up to three arbitrary words of the ROM. Later on they introduced a board that allowed for 12 patched words. There is no way to load software into the machine -- it only runs what is in its ROMs. The CPU's memory is all of 256 bytes. 100 bytes are used to hold the current record being edited. The rest contains variables state that the microprogram uses to track things. "04-hood.jpg" shows that the noise damping foam has all disintegrated. The first thing I did was to get a putty knife and scrape it all into the garbage. This hood sits over the Selectric, but the Plexiglas hinges up and out of the way for use. There are two cassette decks on top. they are used in various ways, but one common way was to have the source version on one tape and as the typist makes corrections, the edited copy goes out to the other deck. the system allowed editing in place, but as the tape format consists of nothing but a train of fixed length 100 byte data blocks, in-place edits could neither insert nor delete lines. Another use was to have a template document in one deck and a list of contacts in the second deck, and the machine would print out form letters customized by the contents of the second tape. The 09-warning.jpg sticker shows that the older machines used rope ROMs. This is a technology whereby word lines were snaked through 44 toroid cores. By having a given word line wind a given core or not it would be sensed as a 0 or 1. This model uses mask ROMs. Luckily, I happen to have schematics for this machine. A few years back I was loaned a box of schematics to scan for the Wang 2200, but it also contained schematics for some other Wang products. At the time I had no thought of having a 1200 (I didn't even know any still existed), but now I'm glad I went and scanned everything. Who knows, maybe some day I'll run out of things that need to be done to my existing emulators and I'll write one for the 1220. It would be the world's most boring emulator, though. My office now has a strong aroma of whatever oils and greases that were applied to the Selectric probably 20 years ago. I'm amazed how volatile it still is. Finally, my 2200 website has a 6 page color brochure touting the amazing features of the Wang 1200 family (6 pages, 1.5 MB): http://wang2200.org/docs/Wang%20Word%20Processing.pdf The collage of very early 70s people on the cover of the brochure is worth the price of the download. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Sep 8 22:45:06 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 20:45:06 -0700 Subject: Paper tapes+rubber bands+30 yrs = mess In-Reply-To: <48C55E2E.3050404@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <48C55E2E.3050404@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 11:17:34 -0600> From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> To: > Subject: Re: Paper tapes+rubber bands+30 yrs = mess> > dwight elvey wrote:> > I know how to make benzene.> > Take acetylene and pressurize it to 4 atmospheres and bang, you> > have benzene. With a catalyst, it can be done more sanely.> > Dwight> Bang is more fun... Now how do you make acetylene again...> > lithium or calcium carbide and water will make acetylene. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ See how Windows connects the people, information, and fun that are part of your life. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093175mrt/direct/01/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 8 16:05:37 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 14:05:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: any Apollo fans out yonder? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <981605.99874.qm@web65510.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> tell me more :) --- On Mon, 9/8/08, Simon Fryer wrote: > From: Simon Fryer > Subject: Re: any Apollo fans out yonder? > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Monday, September 8, 2008, 7:51 AM > G'Day, > > On 05/09/2008, Chris M wrote: > > I know I posted this before. But there's been so > little feedback... > > I assume you are referring to the Apollo Domain computers > that were > subsequently swallowed by HP. In which case - yes. > > Simon > > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; > that is left to > philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an > engineer is > the utility of the final product." > Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, > L.Solymar, D.Walsh From snhirsch at gmail.com Mon Sep 8 16:52:46 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 17:52:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Any TI99 Folks out there? Message-ID: I have just added a TI expansion unit to my collection. It came with all the proper internal modules, but there's a possibility that the Disk Management plug-in cartridge (firmware) is missing. If the person I bought it from is unable to find it, is there any workaround to not having this? Does anyone have a spare one to sell? I'm reasonably new to the TI system, so any advice or input would be greatly appreciated! Also needed: The "A" and "B" diskettes that accompanied the Editor/Assembler package. I do have the firmware cartridge and docs for this. Steve -- From g.rosi at tiscalinet.it Mon Sep 8 17:30:46 2008 From: g.rosi at tiscalinet.it (guido rosi) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 00:30:46 +0200 Subject: Off-Topic Fluke 4250 info wanted Message-ID: <000501c91202$8a19f000$0201a8c0@venere> Dear Jonn, i'm an Italian engeneer and I buy some mounth ago a lot of fluke 4250 voltage source. Unfortunately i'm not able to program because i not have the message list....i tried be with no result. Have you any information abaut? If yes, can you post me the list? Thanks in advance. Guido Rosi From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net Mon Sep 8 19:55:24 2008 From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Daniel Snyder) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 20:55:24 -0400 Subject: EISA cfg file needed References: <729A109AC7F5472F8DEC81B5056E6E43@game> Message-ID: <000e01c91216$be46a0d0$6401a8c0@HP24150918428> Teo, Go to http://downloadcenter.intel.com/confirm.aspx?httpDown=http://downloadmirror.intel.com/2/eng/e32disk.exe&agr=&ProductID=410&DwnldId=2&strOSs=&OSFullName=&lang=eng and download the config disk image for the Intel Etherexpress 32 EISA card.. Dan Snyder ----- Original Message ----- From: "Teo Zenios" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 12:33 AM Subject: EISA cfg file needed Looking for an EISA config file !INT3132.CFG if anyone has it. Thanks, TZ From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net Mon Sep 8 20:03:02 2008 From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Daniel Snyder) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 21:03:02 -0400 Subject: EISA cfg file needed References: <729A109AC7F5472F8DEC81B5056E6E43@game> Message-ID: <000501c91218$1380e820$6401a8c0@HP24150918428> Teo, Sorry about that, INT3132, is for the ECC memory card (INT3132 "ECC Memory Module (BXECCMEM0)" I'll look for it.. Dan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Teo Zenios" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 3:29 PM Subject: Re: EISA cfg file needed >I think it is in Intels ECU 2.9.4 which they do not have online at their >website, if anyone has that. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Teo Zenios" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 12:33 AM > Subject: EISA cfg file needed > > > Looking for an EISA config file !INT3132.CFG if anyone has it. > > Thanks, > > TZ > From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net Mon Sep 8 20:20:09 2008 From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Daniel Snyder) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 21:20:09 -0400 Subject: EISA cfg file needed References: <729A109AC7F5472F8DEC81B5056E6E43@game> Message-ID: <000d01c9121a$4a76f750$6401a8c0@HP24150918428> Teo, Contact me offline. The system you have is identical to a HP Netserver LM 5/90. I have all the config and EISA config utils.. Dan Snyder ----- Original Message ----- From: "Teo Zenios" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 3:29 PM Subject: Re: EISA cfg file needed >I think it is in Intels ECU 2.9.4 which they do not have online at their >website, if anyone has that. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Teo Zenios" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Sunday, September 07, 2008 12:33 AM > Subject: EISA cfg file needed > > > Looking for an EISA config file !INT3132.CFG if anyone has it. > > Thanks, > > TZ > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Sep 8 20:35:22 2008 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 21:35:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [SPAM] - Re: Files are Different Problem - Found word(s) list error XXX in the Text body In-Reply-To: <48C5C79F.6080903@compsys.to> References: <48C54884.9090902@compsys.to> <1220889170.29130.26.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> <48C5C79F.6080903@compsys.to> Message-ID: <200809090138.VAA08489@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Try running memtest86 on the machine. [...] > I attempted to search for any WXP programs named *mem*.type and > *test*.type with type being exe, com, bat or lnk. I found only > mem.exe which only seem to work for DOS. > Can anyone suggest a RAM testing option? memtest86 would be my suggestion too. I'm not sure what "WXP" is, but perhaps what you're missing is that memtest86 is a completely standalone program, one that runs sans operating system (as indeed it semi-must, since it wants to mess with things not normally accessible except to the OS, such as memory controllers and memory error interrupts). Some Linux distros - the Fedora name comes to mind - provide it as a boot option on their install CD images, which may be the simplest way for you to get it. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Sep 8 21:10:17 2008 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 8 Sep 2008 22:10:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Paper tapes+rubber bands+30 yrs = mess In-Reply-To: <20080908221118.GB11556@thangorodrim.de> References: <48C56BD4.1060702@gmail.com> <48C51D82.14127.C75076@cclist.sydex.com> <48C597B7.2080409@jetnet.ab.ca> <48C59C70.50702@gmail.com> <20080908221118.GB11556@thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <200809090211.WAA08835@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>>> And to make coal... >>> You find a old swamp, and cover it for few million years ... >> I don't believe it takes quite that long. > It takes even longer. It has taken even longer, which is not quite the same thing. Do we have any reason to think we know how long it actually takes? That is, the time actually required, as opposed to the time taken in the cases we've looked at? /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From nico at farumdata.dk Tue Sep 9 02:36:25 2008 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 09:36:25 +0200 Subject: Old parts Message-ID: <000b01c9124e$c3ed2ee0$2101a8c0@finans> Hi all During a minor clean-up, I found some parts looking for a good home. Available for the cost of the postage from Denmark. The parts come from an mid-80 Acer IBM XT compatible - PC/500 cpu card (8088-2) - PC/500 I/O card with printer, comport, floppy controller - EGA card - LAN card for coax + 15-pin subd I think I also have a harddisc controller somewhere. - 1 backplane All cards are 8 bit ISA. Nico From mike at brickfieldspark.org Tue Sep 9 03:16:14 2008 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 09:16:14 +0100 Subject: [personal] wang 1220 photos & info References: <48C5EB60.2000800@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <001701c91254$5455ed00$961ca8c0@mss.local> What sort of distance is that ?, (I'm not on the US), for that price and from the photo of the packaging I think you got a very good deal, transport over here (Uk) is expensive. We had a Selectric instead of an ASR33 on one of our mainframes, thanks for reminding me of them !. Mike www.soemtron.org mike at soemtron.org Looking for a PDP-7 (some hope!) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Battle" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 4:20 AM Subject: [personal] wang 1220 photos & info > Once I opened it I could see that the shipping container was well made and > I had gotten my money's worth. After half an hour of pulling staples and > folding large sheets of cardboard, I had my very own Wang 1220 word > processor. It was born on Aug 1, 1973, making it a bit more than 35 years > old. > From innfoclassics at gmail.com Tue Sep 9 04:25:11 2008 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 02:25:11 -0700 Subject: any Apollo fans out yonder? In-Reply-To: <475613.43223.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <475613.43223.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I have an Apollo 570T with monitor and keyboard in storage. I think it is a 68020 based machine with 5 !/4 inch drives. It has been 8 years or so since I have looked at it. I have had a 660 in the past along with three or four 300 series which I really liked. Wished I still had one. I also have had several 3500s go through my hands at one time. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Tue Sep 9 04:23:15 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 09:23:15 +0000 Subject: Does anyone have an electronic copy of the "OS/8 Software SupportManual"? In-Reply-To: References: <20080909001330.GA1780@usap.gov> Message-ID: <20080909092315.GC6492@usap.gov> On Mon, Sep 08, 2008 at 05:58:56PM -0700, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > I also have lots of OSSMB but no OSSMA. . . . > OSSMB has some stuff about USR in chapter 2, and Appendix F has some > code examples of how to do the usual stuff. Yes. Thanks for pointing that out. I did glance at OSSMB but since it was listed as a "suppliment", I didn't read it in great detail, thinking it was building on the other document. > Was there additional information in OSSMA? I don't know, but I was hoping so. > Google found http://www.pdp8.net/document.txt, which makes a cryptic > reference to it. Maybe that means David has a copy? Perhaps. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 9-Sep-2008 at 09:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -80.1 F (-62.3 C) Windchill -111.1 F (-79.5 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 6.7 kts Grid 120 Barometer 673.3 mb (10882 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Tue Sep 9 04:24:10 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 09:24:10 +0000 Subject: Does anyone have an electronic copy of the "OS/8 SoftwareSupportManual"? In-Reply-To: References: <20080909001330.GA1780@usap.gov> Message-ID: <20080909092410.GD6492@usap.gov> On Mon, Sep 08, 2008 at 06:33:21PM -0700, Rich Alderson wrote: > > OSSMB has some stuff about USR in chapter 2, and Appendix F has > > some code examples of how to do the usual stuff. > > > Was there additional information in OSSMA? > > I have access to hardcopy of two editions, at the computer room. > I'll check tomorrow and let everyone know. Thanks, Rich. I'll be interested to hear what differences there might be. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 9-Sep-2008 at 09:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -80.1 F (-62.3 C) Windchill -111.1 F (-79.5 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 6.7 kts Grid 120 Barometer 673.3 mb (10882 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Tue Sep 9 04:29:23 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 09:29:23 +0000 Subject: Does anyone have an electronic copy of the "OS/8 Software Support Manual"? In-Reply-To: References: <20080909001330.GA1780@usap.gov> Message-ID: <20080909092923.GE6492@usap.gov> On Mon, Sep 08, 2008 at 07:09:11PM -0700, Roger Ivie wrote: > On Tue, 9 Sep 2008, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >I have my sbc6120 here and wanted to do a little OS/8 programming, but I > >think I'm stumped for a particular bit of doco - according to the "OS/8 > >System Reference Manual" (DEC-8-OSRMA-A-D), the User Service Routine is > >documented in the "OS/8 Software Support Manual" (DEC-8-OSSMA-A-D). I've > >found many OS/8 docs on Highgate and Bitsavers (DEC-S8-OSSMB-A-D, the > >1974 "OS/8 Handbook", memos, etc.), but not that exact one. > > I have most of it HTMLized at > http://anachronda.homeunix.com:8000/~rivie/os8/ssm/ssm.htm > I just haven't gotten around to doing Appendix F yet. Nice. I had to grab a copy via a server back in the states since we block port 8000, but I did get it and it looks good. > But what I've got is just what's in this PDF file: > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp8/os8/DEC-S8-OSSMB-A-D_OS8_v3ssup.pdf > which, oddly enough, you seem to mention in your note. Yes. I have DEC-S8-OSSMB-A-D_OS8_v3ssup.pdf, and there's some great stuff in there, but since DEC-S8-OSSMA-A-D was referenced in another document and I can't find that, I was curious to see it. After reading what files I do have here, I'm wondering if DEC-S8-OSSMA-A-D is the Software Support Manual for OS/8 v2 and DEC-S8-OSSMB-A-D is essentially the same document, revised for v3. If that's the case, then I can see why nobody has DEC-S8-OSSMA-A-D lying around. I might have some OS/8 v2 files on a DECtape, but since I got into PDP-8s around 1981, OS/8 v3 is all I've ever worked with besides a little dabbling back in the day with RTS-8 - mostly just to run OS/8 as a background task. Thanks to all for the responses. Hopefully Rich Alderson can clear up the mystery of the difference between the two documents. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 9-Sep-2008 at 09:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -80.1 F (-62.3 C) Windchill -111.1 F (-79.5 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 6.7 kts Grid 120 Barometer 673.3 mb (10882 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Tue Sep 9 04:49:42 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 09:49:42 +0000 Subject: Craters and Freighters (was Re: wang 1220 photos & info) In-Reply-To: <48C5EB60.2000800@pacbell.net> References: <48C5EB60.2000800@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <20080909094942.GG6492@usap.gov> On Mon, Sep 08, 2008 at 10:20:00PM -0500, Jim Battle wrote: > About three weeks ago I asked whether a shipping quote I received was > reasonable or not. The item arrived today, so I figured I'd tell how > the story turned out. . . . > So Craters and Freighters it was. They picked it up two Fridays ago, > within 24 hours of me giving them the business. The following Tuesday > they said it was crated and ready for shipment. Last Friday I got a > call from the subcontracted shipper that they were in Texas and would > deliver it today, Monday. They gave me a 3 hour window and delivered it > in that window. The box was in good shape. > > Once I opened it I could see that the shipping container was well made > and I had gotten my money's worth... . . . > It cost $495 for the pick up, boxing, and delivery. While it has been > rare for me to spend that much on any vintage equipment, I am happy with > the way it worked out. Thanks for the report of your experience. I have some PDP-8 gear at a friend's house in Denver and we were considering using C&F to drop-ship it to me in Ohio. Most fortunately for me, their hub in Central Ohio is about 2 miles from my farm (where I have the bulk of my large gear), so I was thinking about depot-to-depot service, not door-to-door, but it's good to know what one would be getting to have them pack as well as ship. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 9-Sep-2008 at 09:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -81.0 F (-62.8 C) Windchill -112.9 F (-80.5 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 7.0 kts Grid 117 Barometer 673.2 mb (10886 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From frustum at pacbell.net Tue Sep 9 07:35:49 2008 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2008 07:35:49 -0500 Subject: [personal] wang 1220 photos & info In-Reply-To: <001701c91254$5455ed00$961ca8c0@mss.local> References: <48C5EB60.2000800@pacbell.net> <001701c91254$5455ed00$961ca8c0@mss.local> Message-ID: <48C66DA5.6030709@pacbell.net> Mike Hatch wrote: > What sort of distance is that ?, (I'm not on the US), for that price and > from the photo of the packaging I think you got a very good deal, > transport over here (Uk) is expensive. We had a Selectric instead of an > ASR33 on one of our mainframes, thanks for reminding me of them !. Mike, chicago and austin are about 1000 miles (1600km) apart. In response to my initial thread, tiggerlasv said that I could have had the shipping done for slightly over $200 if I was willing to take care of the rest myself. The problem was that I wasn't situated near the machine at the shipping end, and I don't have a truck and the necessary equipment at the receiving end. Having them literally drop it four feet outside my office door was worth the extra $$. From frustum at pacbell.net Tue Sep 9 07:35:49 2008 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2008 07:35:49 -0500 Subject: [personal] wang 1220 photos & info In-Reply-To: <001701c91254$5455ed00$961ca8c0@mss.local> References: <48C5EB60.2000800@pacbell.net> <001701c91254$5455ed00$961ca8c0@mss.local> Message-ID: <48C66DA5.6030709@pacbell.net> Mike Hatch wrote: > What sort of distance is that ?, (I'm not on the US), for that price and > from the photo of the packaging I think you got a very good deal, > transport over here (Uk) is expensive. We had a Selectric instead of an > ASR33 on one of our mainframes, thanks for reminding me of them !. Mike, chicago and austin are about 1000 miles (1600km) apart. In response to my initial thread, tiggerlasv said that I could have had the shipping done for slightly over $200 if I was willing to take care of the rest myself. The problem was that I wasn't situated near the machine at the shipping end, and I don't have a truck and the necessary equipment at the receiving end. Having them literally drop it four feet outside my office door was worth the extra $$. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Sep 9 07:46:35 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2008 07:46:35 -0500 Subject: any Apollo fans out yonder? In-Reply-To: <475613.43223.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <475613.43223.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48C6702B.5040407@gmail.com> Chris M wrote: > I know I posted this before. But there's been so little feedback... Yeah, put me down :) Wonderful machines, even the later 4xx systems - just don't bother with the 7xx ones as they're pure HP piggy-backing on the Apollo name (nice in their own right, but incapable of running Domain) I'm still keeping an eye out for a dn10k. I've never used one, but a multi-CPU setup using such an oddball CPU really appeals - I like weird stuff :-) cheers Jules From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Sep 9 08:20:57 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 09:20:57 -0400 Subject: Any TI99 Folks out there? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <98495302-55B2-4474-8A41-8AB983B1CB47@neurotica.com> On Sep 8, 2008, at 5:52 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > I have just added a TI expansion unit to my collection. It came > with all the proper internal modules, but there's a possibility > that the Disk Management plug-in cartridge (firmware) is missing. > If the person I bought it from is unable to find it, is there any > workaround to not having this? > > Does anyone have a spare one to sell? > > I'm reasonably new to the TI system, so any advice or input would > be greatly appreciated! I'm not a TI-99 person, but I sure wish I was. I was given one a couple of years ago, in good condition in its box. I've still not had a chance to dig into it. :-( -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Sep 9 09:04:12 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 07:04:12 -0700 Subject: Paper tapes+rubber bands+30 yrs = mess In-Reply-To: <200809090211.WAA08835@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <48C56BD4.1060702@gmail.com> <48C51D82.14127.C75076@cclist.sydex.com> <48C597B7.2080409@jetnet.ab.ca> <48C59C70.50702@gmail.com> <20080908221118.GB11556@thangorodrim.de> <200809090211.WAA08835@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: > From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG > >>>>> And to make coal... >>>> You find a old swamp, and cover it for few million years ... >>> I don't believe it takes quite that long. >> It takes even longer. > > It has taken even longer, which is not quite the same thing. Do we > have any reason to think we know how long it actually takes? That is, > the time actually required, as opposed to the time taken in the cases > we've looked at? > Hi In any case one can skip the coal method if one has some calcium or lithium metal. Just heat the metal until melted in a vacuum and then add CO2 gas. CO2 can be had from a number of common sources. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ See how Windows connects the people, information, and fun that are part of your life. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093175mrt/direct/01/ From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Sep 9 09:21:24 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2008 10:21:24 -0400 Subject: [SPAM] - Re: Files are Different Problem - Found word(s) list error XXX in the Text body In-Reply-To: <200809090138.VAA08489@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <48C54884.9090902@compsys.to> <1220889170.29130.26.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> <48C5C79F.6080903@compsys.to> <200809090138.VAA08489@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <48C68664.8040409@gmail.com> der Mouse wrote: >>> Try running memtest86 on the machine. [...] >> I attempted to search for any WXP programs named *mem*.type and >> *test*.type with type being exe, com, bat or lnk. I found only >> mem.exe which only seem to work for DOS. > >> Can anyone suggest a RAM testing option? > > memtest86 would be my suggestion too. > > I'm not sure what "WXP" is, but perhaps what you're missing is that > memtest86 is a completely standalone program, one that runs sans > operating system (as indeed it semi-must, since it wants to mess with > things not normally accessible except to the OS, such as memory > controllers and memory error interrupts). Some Linux distros - the > Fedora name comes to mind - provide it as a boot option on their > install CD images, which may be the simplest way for you to get it. It even comes burned into the ROM on some newish PCs. Peace... Sridhar From mike at brickfieldspark.org Tue Sep 9 10:25:15 2008 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 16:25:15 +0100 Subject: [personal] wang 1220 photos & info References: <48C5EB60.2000800@pacbell.net><001701c91254$5455ed00$961ca8c0@mss.local> <48C66DA5.6030709@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <000501c91290$465647e0$961ca8c0@mss.local> Easily more than the length of the UK, so yes a very good deal. Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Battle" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Cc: "On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 1:35 PM Subject: Re: [personal] wang 1220 photos & info > Mike Hatch wrote: >> What sort of distance is that ?, (I'm not on the US), for that price and >> from the photo of the packaging I think you got a very good deal, >> transport over here (Uk) is expensive. We had a Selectric instead of an >> ASR33 on one of our mainframes, thanks for reminding me of them !. > > Mike, chicago and austin are about 1000 miles (1600km) apart. > > In response to my initial thread, tiggerlasv said that I could have had > the shipping done for slightly over $200 if I was willing to take care of > the rest myself. The problem was that I wasn't situated near the machine > at the shipping end, and I don't have a truck and the necessary equipment > at the receiving end. Having them literally drop it four feet outside my > office door was worth the extra $$. > > From SUPRDAVE at aol.com Tue Sep 9 13:30:02 2008 From: SUPRDAVE at aol.com (SUPRDAVE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 14:30:02 EDT Subject: Any TI99 Folks out there? Message-ID: Unfortunately, the disk manager cart is required. I did see one on ebay though. >In a message dated 9/9/2008 2:49:58 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, snhirsch at gmail.com writes: >I have just added a TI expansion unit to my collection. It came with all >the proper internal modules, but there's a possibility that the Disk >Management plug-in cartridge (firmware) is missing. If the person I >bought it from is unable to find it, is there any workaround to not >having this? **************Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com. (http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014) From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 9 14:49:11 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 12:49:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Paper tapes+rubber bands+30 yrs = mess In-Reply-To: References: <48C56BD4.1060702@gmail.com> <48C51D82.14127.C75076@cclist.sydex.com> <48C597B7.2080409@jetnet.ab.ca> <48C59C70.50702@gmail.com> <20080908221118.GB11556@thangorodrim.de> <200809090211.WAA08835@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <20080909124700.T99937@shell.lmi.net> >>>>> And to make coal... >>>> You find a old swamp, and cover it for few million years ... >>> I don't believe it takes quite that long. >> It takes even longer. > It has taken even longer, which is not quite the same thing. Do we > have any reason to think we know how long it actually takes? That is, > the time actually required, as opposed to the time taken in the cases > we've looked at? . . . and there are some folk who claim that you can make all that you want in 6000 years, if you include a big flood, . . . From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Sep 9 15:24:37 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 15:24:37 -0500 Subject: Ann Arbor: Free HP/Apollo Message-ID: <51ea77730809091324i5a9534b5y5d5968adda0f9b6c@mail.gmail.com> Not mine and too far for me, but it's good stuff for free: http://annarbor.craigslist.org/zip/834142216.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 9 08:50:36 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 14:50:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: Datasheet for Intel 1103 DRAM? In-Reply-To: <0C8B5236-4DDE-4BDC-B5F7-9F0E97853339@mail.msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Sep 8, 8 03:36:05 pm Message-ID: > > > Anyone have a copy of this in digital format? Can't find this on the > 'net. I have it on paper. I've also worked on several (HP) machines that use this DRAM. > > Trying to work out what voltages the power supply in the ND-821 is > supposed to put out. From testing, it looks like 5v, 18v, and 24v. > Knowing what the RAM requires will help nail this down, since it's > powered separately from the main logic. The DRAMs are strange. They're PMOS, so it's really a -ve main supply (I think -16V, but that may depened on the version) and a small +ve bias supply (+3V). But often (and certainly in the HP machines I've worked on), the most -ve rail is taken as ground, so the supplies are +16V and +19V The logic levels at the address/data/control pins are also 16V IIRC. Intel did make some special interface ICs, but not everone used them. You could also use open-collector TTL buffers with an external transistor as an active pull-up, for example. The RAM signals are relatively conventional. 10 address lines, a R/W signal, data in, data out and a 'precharge' signal that isn't used on later versions (-1 IIRC) of the chip. LEt me know if you need pinouts, etc. I certainly have them, Also, you might want to take a look at the HP9810/HP9820/HP9830 schematics (on hpmuseum.net). Those machines ued said DRAM. The first 2, IIRC, used open-collector TTL chips to drive the DRAM signals and fast-ish comparators to convert the data out line back to TTL. The latter used at least one of the Intel interface ICs. -tony From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Tue Sep 9 20:08:48 2008 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2008 19:08:48 -0600 Subject: Paper tapes+rubber bands+30 yrs = mess In-Reply-To: <20080909124700.T99937@shell.lmi.net> References: <48C56BD4.1060702@gmail.com> <48C51D82.14127.C75076@cclist.sydex.com> <48C597B7.2080409@jetnet.ab.ca> <48C59C70.50702@gmail.com> <20080908221118.GB11556@thangorodrim.de> <200809090211.WAA08835@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20080909124700.T99937@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <48C71E20.50404@brutman.com> Fred Cisin wrote: >>>>>> And to make coal... >>>>> You find a old swamp, and cover it for few million years ... >>>> I don't believe it takes quite that long. >>> It takes even longer. >> It has taken even longer, which is not quite the same thing. Do we >> have any reason to think we know how long it actually takes? That is, >> the time actually required, as opposed to the time taken in the cases >> we've looked at? > > . . . and there are some folk who claim that you can make all that you > want in 6000 years, if you include a big flood, . . . > > And then it will show up in another few thousand years as a string of off topic postings on a classic computer mailing list. Would everybody please resist the urge to post off topic one liners? How many people need to chip in to what has degenerated to a worthless thread? From bear at typewritten.org Tue Sep 9 20:19:33 2008 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 18:19:33 -0700 Subject: Any TI99 Folks out there? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sep 9, 2008, at 11:30 AM, SUPRDAVE at aol.com wrote: > Unfortunately, the disk manager cart is required. I did see one on > ebay > though. Not exactly. You don't need the disk manager cart to _use_ the floppy drive, but it does contain, for example, the file list, copy, and disk format routines. ok bear From rescue at hawkmountain.net Tue Sep 9 23:07:31 2008 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 00:07:31 -0400 Subject: any Apollo fans out yonder? In-Reply-To: <48C6702B.5040407@gmail.com> References: <475613.43223.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <48C6702B.5040407@gmail.com> Message-ID: <48C74803.5070303@hawkmountain.net> Jules Richardson wrote: > Chris M wrote: >> I know I posted this before. But there's been so little feedback... > > Yeah, put me down :) > > Wonderful machines, even the later 4xx systems - just don't bother > with the 7xx ones as they're pure HP piggy-backing on the Apollo name > (nice in their own right, but incapable of running Domain) > > I'm still keeping an eye out for a dn10k. I've never used one, but a > multi-CPU setup using such an oddball CPU really appeals - I like > weird stuff :-) I wouldn't mind a DN10K either.... physically large is the only drawback :-) (that and prob eats a good deal of power). I would love to find a DN3XX. Wouldn't mind a 3500 either. We had these in the CIS program at college (first DN3XX then some DN3000 and DN3500, and one DN10K). The DN10K was unique enough it rarely got used for anything except to play an awesome remake of the Star Wars arcade game (or so my memory cells remember it as such (awesome)). Sadly... I don't own any Apollo gear. I do have a set of OS tapes around somewhere, although who knows if they are good anymore. (don't even know if I could find them anymore :-(). -- Curt -- Curt > > cheers > > Jules > > > > From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Sep 9 23:15:47 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 23:15:47 -0500 Subject: any Apollo fans out yonder? In-Reply-To: <48C74803.5070303@hawkmountain.net> References: <475613.43223.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <48C6702B.5040407@gmail.com> <48C74803.5070303@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <51ea77730809092115j53c87334yd2064640a1aceacf@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 11:07 PM, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > > I would love to find a DN3XX. Wouldn't mind a 3500 either. I just picked up a Domain 3500. Sadly no keyboard, which I believe is proprietary (?) 3W3 video, too, but that one I can figure out. Is DomainOS unobtainable? From derschjo at msu.edu Tue Sep 9 03:04:12 2008 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2008 01:04:12 -0700 Subject: Nuclear Data ND-812 info... In-Reply-To: <48C55916.8030807@bitsavers.org> References: <48C55916.8030807@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <48C62DFC.5040105@msu.edu> Thanks for the info! The two machines I have are in pretty rough shape (the front panel on one of them is melted...) but I hope I can manage to get tone of them running... Josh Al Kossow wrote: > > Anyone know anything else about these things? > > Nuclear Data was a Chicago company that built various bits of > instrumentation for the nuclear industry. I have heard they were > the company whose computers were at Three Mile Island, but have > no documentation on that. > > The ND-812 front panel is light/dark green as well. I have one > in poor condition. The CPU is wire wrapped. There are PCBs for > the core memory system. > > Bunker-Ramo used them in a point of sale system for supermarkets, > mostly in the Chicago area. Parts for them would show up at hamfests > in the mid-late 70's there, which was the first time I saw one. > > > > From derschjo at msu.edu Tue Sep 9 03:06:46 2008 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2008 01:06:46 -0700 Subject: Datasheet for Intel 1103 DRAM? In-Reply-To: <48C54D63.20750.182558C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <0C8B5236-4DDE-4BDC-B5F7-9F0E97853339@mail.msu.edu> <48C54D63.20750.182558C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <48C62E96.1060101@msu.edu> Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> red separately from the main logic. >> > > Take a look in the Intel Memory Design Handbook from 1973 on > bitsavers. There's a whole chapter on the 1103, complete with specs: > > http://bitsavers.vt100.net/pdf/intel/_dataBooks/MemoryDesignHandbook_A > ug73.pdf > Cool -- thanks for pointing that out... > You mean that you're not going to turn your 1103 into a tie-tack or > embed it in a block of resin as a keychain fob? YOU'RE ACTUALLY > GOING TO USE IT?! :) > Well, I'm going to try. The machine these things are in (an ND-812) is in pretty rough shape. Otherwise, I'll start an 1103 paperweight business (kidding). Josh > Cheers, > Chuck > > > > From derschjo at msu.edu Tue Sep 9 03:08:16 2008 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2008 01:08:16 -0700 Subject: Datasheet for Intel 1103 DRAM? In-Reply-To: <001901c91212$ba411af0$0301a8c0@hal9000> References: <0C8B5236-4DDE-4BDC-B5F7-9F0E97853339@mail.msu.edu> <001901c91212$ba411af0$0301a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <48C62EF0.6050603@msu.edu> Excellent -- thanks (and thanks to everyone else who provided info!). I've verified that the power supply is putting out the correct voltages w/no appreciable ripple. (5V, 19V, and 23V). Now on to bigger and better things, maybe... Josh Scanning wrote: > Josh, > > It is a little complicated, but here it is; > > For a straight N/C part, Vss = 16 Volts and Vbb = 19 Volts. The spec is a > little hard to interpret because it says Vbb - Vss = 3 to 4 Volts. But > obviously if you subtract 19 - 16 Volts you get 3 Volts. For the other > versions; > > 1103 -1 = +19 and +22 Volts > 1103 -A = +16 and +19 Volts > 1103 -A1 = +19 and +22 Volts > 1103 -A2 = +19 and +22 Volts > > Confused yet ? Hope this helps ! > > Best regards, Steven > > > > > >> Anyone have a copy of this in digital format? Can't find this on the >> 'net. >> >> Trying to work out what voltages the power supply in the ND-821 is >> supposed to put out. From testing, it looks like 5v, 18v, and 24v. >> Knowing what the RAM requires will help nail this down, since it's >> powered separately from the main logic. >> >> Thanks, >> Josh >> > > > > From derschjo at msu.edu Tue Sep 9 03:17:55 2008 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2008 01:17:55 -0700 Subject: Suggestions for cleaning hundreds of socketed chips? Message-ID: <48C63133.6000201@msu.edu> Hey all -- I've gotten the power supply in one of my ND-812s running (thanks for the help w/the 1103 data which helped verify the voltages) and it appears to be within spec under load (correct voltages, no ripple in the output, etc...) so I powered the machine on and despite having my fingers crossed, the machine does not run. (No real surprise there). Random lights on the front panel, and basically no response to any toggle switches. I started pulling out and reseating the chips on the main CPU board and powered it up after every few rows, and every time the behavior was slightly different, so I'm fairly sure that the sockets and chips aren't all making good connections anymore. Seems like solving this problem would be a good place to start. The problem is that there are 25 rows of 13 chips each (all socketed), in very close proximity to one another. The chips are in sockets with wire-wrap pins underneath -- the underside of the main CPU board is a maze of wire wrapping. Most of the chips have date stamps between 1971 and 1973, but luckily most of them aren't corroded to the point where they're falling apart. How would you suggest cleaning the sockets and the chips to ensure good connections? Thanks, Josh From julianskidmore at yahoo.com Tue Sep 9 09:48:39 2008 From: julianskidmore at yahoo.com (Julian Skidmore) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 07:48:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Mac SE Flyback! Message-ID: <940757.65320.qm@web37103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi Jos, > > ..the Mac's good, but the flyback Transformer burnt out a while > > back and I was wondering what would be a suitable replacement. > I just discarded a Mac plus analog board, interested ? > You can have it, or just the flyback, for the cost of shipping from > Switzerland. That's very kind of you, if you email me on my own address: mailto:julianskidmore at yahoo.com we'll sort out payment. I don't mind if you ship the whole analog board as I imagine it'll take quite a bit of effort to pull the Flyback off it. Not sure how compatible SE and Plus flybacks are (I don't think the Plusses had 'bleeders'), but it's my best (and only) offer! -cheers from julz @P From jpeterson at chinalake.com Tue Sep 9 12:08:43 2008 From: jpeterson at chinalake.com (J. Peterson) Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2008 13:08:43 -0400 Subject: SCSI drives, SCA adapters, DEC Serverworks Mgr 3.2/3.3 CD & Doc need homes Message-ID: <48C6AD9B.9000303@chinalake.com> Free for the cost of shipping from US/Boston 01888 - ST3600N 500 GB Apple branded - (2) Quantum Viking 2275W 2.2 G Wide SCSI drives - SCA adapters w/ power and ID jumpers (1) SCA F-68 pin F w/ term resistors (1) SCA F-68 pin F w/o term (1) SCA F-50 pin narrow and 68 wide F - Plextor PX-43CE SCSI CD Sept 1995 Internal Uses caddies which I am out of - Dayna Apple Easynet 10 base-T adapter - Dec HiNote VP500 User's Guide (software probably around too) - Dec Serverworks Manager Overview and Install Guide (1/3" think) with CDs for 3.2 and 3.3 (Jan and April 1998) Cheers Jim From jpeterson at chinalake.com Tue Sep 9 12:11:53 2008 From: jpeterson at chinalake.com (J. Peterson) Date: Tue, 09 Sep 2008 13:11:53 -0400 Subject: Adaptec 2740A EISA (SE, no floppy) needs home Message-ID: <48C6AE59.6080106@chinalake.com> 2740A EISA, SE, non-floppy, free for the cost of shipping from US/01888 Cheers, Jim From ra9yer at yahoo.com Tue Sep 9 20:55:37 2008 From: ra9yer at yahoo.com (Alexander Sholohov) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 18:55:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ECC on MFM drive Message-ID: <942667.56544.qm@web55008.mail.re4.yahoo.com> [skip] >> ECC. This is definitely not a CRC32. The algorithm in >> general looks like shift register for polynomial >> multiplication with polynomial equal to >> x32+x28+x26+x19+x17+x10+x6+x2+1 . > It's a polynomial code not unlike a CRC. (Note that a CRC > works as an error-correcting code, but aren't as good at > burst error detection/correction as codes designed for that > purpose.) It could be a BCH code. Older disk subsystems > on "big iron" used Fire code, but I'm not aware of that > even having been used on small Winchester drives. Yes. Indeed. I checked it again and it is the regular CRC circuit with unusual initial value and polynomial. Thank you. Alexander. From iamvirtual at gmail.com Tue Sep 9 21:05:37 2008 From: iamvirtual at gmail.com (B M) Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 20:05:37 -0600 Subject: HP1600A + HP1607A Manuals Message-ID: <2645f9870809091905r2eb8ef6co7afd2603b6091b82@mail.gmail.com> Does anyone have a scan of the operating and service manuals for the HP 1600A logic analyzer along with it's sidekick, the HP 1607A? PDF is fine, but I would never turn down dead tree format. :-) Thanks! --barrym From fryers at gmail.com Wed Sep 10 03:52:46 2008 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 09:52:46 +0100 Subject: any Apollo fans out yonder? In-Reply-To: <51ea77730809092115j53c87334yd2064640a1aceacf@mail.gmail.com> References: <475613.43223.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <48C6702B.5040407@gmail.com> <48C74803.5070303@hawkmountain.net> <51ea77730809092115j53c87334yd2064640a1aceacf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On 10/09/2008, Jason T wrote: > On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 11:07 PM, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. > wrote: > > > > I would love to find a DN3XX. Wouldn't mind a 3500 either. > > I just picked up a Domain 3500. Sadly no keyboard, which I believe is > proprietary (?) 3W3 video, too, but that one I can figure out. Use a serial terminal on the serial port. :) > Is DomainOS unobtainable? No. A few people (me included) have install media for some of the machines. I have install tapes for later machines. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Sep 10 07:36:08 2008 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 08:36:08 -0400 Subject: Files are Different Problem In-Reply-To: <04077BCC2AA14AA6A566BDB0107D38BC@p4266> References: <04077BCC2AA14AA6A566BDB0107D38BC@p4266> Message-ID: <48C7BF38.3020302@compsys.to> >Martin Marshall wrote: >>Jerome Fine replies: >> >>I attempted to search for any WXP programs named *mem*.type and >>*test*.type with >>type being exe, com, bat or lnk. I found only mem.exe which >>only seem >>to work for DOS. >>Can anyone suggest a RAM testing option? >> >http://www.memtest86.com/download.htm >Works quite well. > > I did the download. It seems like I must write the program to a floppy, then boot the floppy. Is that correct? From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Sep 10 07:51:07 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 07:51:07 -0500 Subject: Files are Different Problem In-Reply-To: <48C7BF38.3020302@compsys.to> References: <04077BCC2AA14AA6A566BDB0107D38BC@p4266> <48C7BF38.3020302@compsys.to> Message-ID: <48C7C2BB.7080408@gmail.com> Jerome H. Fine wrote: >> http://www.memtest86.com/download.htm >> Works quite well. >> >> > I did the download. It seems like I must write the program to > a floppy, then boot the floppy. Is that correct? Sounds right - it needs to run without an OS in the way. In my case I downloaded a CD .iso image and created a bootable CDROM from that. cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Sep 10 07:57:47 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 07:57:47 -0500 Subject: any Apollo fans out yonder? In-Reply-To: References: <475613.43223.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <48C6702B.5040407@gmail.com> <48C74803.5070303@hawkmountain.net> <51ea77730809092115j53c87334yd2064640a1aceacf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48C7C44B.8030400@gmail.com> Simon Fryer wrote: > On 10/09/2008, Jason T wrote: >> On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 11:07 PM, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. >> wrote: >>> I would love to find a DN3XX. Wouldn't mind a 3500 either. >> I just picked up a Domain 3500. Sadly no keyboard, which I believe is >> proprietary (?) 3W3 video, too, but that one I can figure out. > > Use a serial terminal on the serial port. :) Hmm, I can't remember if that works. I have a feeling that Domain won't boot without a proper Domain keyboard, at least on the 4xx series machines - maybe the earlier systems are more forgiving. It would probably be beneficial to the world at large if someone were to reverse-engineer the Domain keyboard protocol and come up with a PIC-based solution that would allow the use of a PC keyboard; Apollo systems seem at least ten times more available than the Domain keyboards that should go with them! :-( >> Is DomainOS unobtainable? > > No. A few people (me included) have install media for some of the > machines. I have install tapes for later machines. me too Mine were kindly sent by a list member, so there's at least another set floating around, too. cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Sep 10 08:02:37 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 08:02:37 -0500 Subject: any Apollo fans out yonder? In-Reply-To: <48C74803.5070303@hawkmountain.net> References: <475613.43223.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <48C6702B.5040407@gmail.com> <48C74803.5070303@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <48C7C56D.3070302@gmail.com> Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: >> I'm still keeping an eye out for a dn10k. I've never used one, but a >> multi-CPU setup using such an oddball CPU really appeals - I like >> weird stuff :-) > > I wouldn't mind a DN10K either.... physically large is the only > drawback :-) (that and prob eats a good deal of power). Heh, I could handle that - although shipping it to get it here would be a major headache. > I would love to find a DN3XX. Wouldn't mind a 3500 either. The 3xxx and 4xxx machines are pretty nice (although not as high a build quality as the 4xx's). Fun to mess around with - although I suppose the thing about Apollos is that to really enjoy them you need more than one :-) > We had these in the CIS program at college (first DN3XX then > some DN3000 and DN3500, and one DN10K). The DN10K was > unique enough it rarely got used for anything except to play > an awesome remake of the Star Wars arcade game (or so my > memory cells remember it as such (awesome)). Heh - if only that still survived; I assume it's long-gone (the software - but the machine too, I guess) > Sadly... I don't own any Apollo gear. I do have a set of OS tapes > around somewhere, although who knows if they are good anymore. > (don't even know if I could find them anymore :-(). Actually, counter to what I said in my reply to Simon, I don't have any dn10k media - if that's what you have then keep an eye out for it. Close to rocking horse poop, it is... Media for the 'lesser' apollos is definitely alive and well, however. cheers Jules From martinm at allwest.net Wed Sep 10 08:03:14 2008 From: martinm at allwest.net (Martin Marshall) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 07:03:14 -0600 Subject: Files are Different Problem In-Reply-To: <48C7BF38.3020302@compsys.to> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jerome H. Fine > Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 6:36 AM > To: General at mmarshall.com; Discussion at mmarshall.com:On-Topic > and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Files are Different Problem > > > >Martin Marshall wrote: > > >>Jerome Fine replies: > >> > >>I attempted to search for any WXP programs named *mem*.type and > >>*test*.type with > >>type being exe, com, bat or lnk. I found only mem.exe which > >>only seem > >>to work for DOS. > >>Can anyone suggest a RAM testing option? > >> > >http://www.memtest86.com/download.htm > >Works quite well. > > > > > I did the download. It seems like I must write the program > to a floppy, then boot the floppy. Is that correct? > Download the 3.4a iso as a zip file. Unzip the file and you will have memtest.iso. Burn the image to a CD (don't copy memtest.iso to CD, but burn to CD using software that will burn a disk image). Boot the computer from the CD and you are good to go. Martin From fryers at gmail.com Wed Sep 10 08:06:17 2008 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 14:06:17 +0100 Subject: any Apollo fans out yonder? In-Reply-To: <48C7C44B.8030400@gmail.com> References: <475613.43223.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <48C6702B.5040407@gmail.com> <48C74803.5070303@hawkmountain.net> <51ea77730809092115j53c87334yd2064640a1aceacf@mail.gmail.com> <48C7C44B.8030400@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 10/09/2008, Jules Richardson wrote: > Simon Fryer wrote: > > On 10/09/2008, Jason T wrote: > > > > > On Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 11:07 PM, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. > > > wrote: > > > > > > > I would love to find a DN3XX. Wouldn't mind a 3500 either. > > > > > > > I just picked up a Domain 3500. Sadly no keyboard, which I believe is > > > proprietary (?) 3W3 video, too, but that one I can figure out. > > > > Use a serial terminal on the serial port. :) > > Hmm, I can't remember if that works. I have a feeling that Domain won't boot > without a proper Domain keyboard, at least on the 4xx series machines - > maybe the earlier systems are more forgiving. I have had this working on a DN3K system. I seemed to recall the DN4K and 5K machines were pretty much the same. Although I had a keyboard and monitor for my 5K! [...] Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From bob at jfcl.com Wed Sep 10 09:39:24 2008 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 07:39:24 -0700 Subject: Intersil Intercept Models... Message-ID: <000e01c91353$05245410$0f6cfc30$@com> Intersil made several PDP-8 "work a likes" based on their 6100 chip, and I'm trying to figure out a few of the exact details. OK, I know this is really obscure, but I'm hoping somebody out there has used one or at least seen one :-) The Intercept Jr was the SYM or KIM like single board computer with a chiclet keypad and seven segment displays and powered by D cells. That one's easy to identify. However, after they bought out Intersil, Harris made a thing called the "Micro12" which was a little like the Intercept Jr but is clearly not the same. There are no D cells on the Micro12 for one thing, and more logic on board for another. I only have pictures of the Micro12, but no details. Does anybody know any more about this gizmo? And the "Intercept I/II Microcomputer Development Manual" (which I do have) has pictures and specifications for the Intercept I and II. The I is in a 3-1/2" chassis that holds four cards horizontally, and the II is a 5-1/4" chassis that holds at least a dozen cards inserted vertically. As far as I can determine from the manual, the I and II are the same (they use all the same cards) except for the chassis, and neither one has any kind of front panel. The front panel is emulated with an ODT like debugger in the console firmware (a little like the LSI-11). BUT, I've also seen pictures of something that looks like an Intercept I (exact same chassis), but with a lights and switches front panel. Intersil and Harris both published application notes, #006, that described the "6100 Operator Console" and the application note even contains a nice photograph of just such a machine. What model was this? Is it a unique model, was there a front panel option for an Intercept I? The Intercept manual says nothing about any kind of front panel. Also, Intersil had their own disk (floppy disk, that is) operating system for the Intercept I/II called IFDOS. I have a manual for IFDOS, but it doesn't describe the floppy disk hardware for the Intercept. Was it a clone of the RX01/RX8E? Have any copies of IFDOS media survived? Thanks! Bob Armstrong From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 10 11:08:48 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 09:08:48 -0700 Subject: Suggestions for cleaning hundreds of socketed chips? In-Reply-To: <48C63133.6000201@msu.edu> References: <48C63133.6000201@msu.edu> Message-ID: <48C78EA0.23802.A511E3D@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Sep 2008 at 1:17, Josh Dersch wrote: > How would you suggest cleaning the sockets and the chips to ensure good > connections? I'd probably start with a good contact cleaner, such as DeoxIT. If you've got some Freon TF kicking around, that would also be something to try. Cheers, Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Sep 10 11:20:10 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 09:20:10 -0700 Subject: ECC on MFM drive Message-ID: <48C7F3BA.3030002@bitsavers.org> > Yes. Indeed. I checked it again and it is the regular > CRC circuit with unusual initial value and polynomial. What are these values? They are not documented in the data sheet. From trag at io.com Wed Sep 10 12:05:16 2008 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 12:05:16 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Mac SE Flyback! In-Reply-To: <200809101701.m8AH151a011358@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200809101701.m8AH151a011358@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4e4224decd395af2f679894c72bddb62.squirrel@webmail.io.com> > Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 07:48:39 -0700 (PDT) > From: Julian Skidmore > Subject: Mac SE Flyback! > >> > ..the Mac's good, but the flyback Transformer burnt out a while >> You can have it, or just the flyback, for the cost of shipping from >> Switzerland. > but it's my best (and only) offer! They (compact Mac flybacks) are hard to find these days. I was kind of hoping your posting would cause someone to pop up and point, "That place over there has hundreds of them" or to discover that there is an alternative usable part number which is still available. The ringing silence probably means that they are as rare as they seem to be now days. Sigh. Jeff Walther From g-wright at att.net Wed Sep 10 12:26:57 2008 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 17:26:57 +0000 Subject: Needed, GE Terminet 300 manuals Message-ID: <091020081726.16305.48C803610005740100003FB122230680329B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> I Have one of these that I would like to get going. Did not see much out there on these. anyone have some manuals stashed. - Thanks, Jerry From g-wright at att.net Wed Sep 10 12:36:37 2008 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 17:36:37 +0000 Subject: any Apollo fans out yonder? In-Reply-To: References: <475613.43223.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><48C6702B.5040407@gmail.com> <48C74803.5070303@hawkmountain.net><51ea77730809092115j53c87334yd2064640a1aceacf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <091020081736.20066.48C805A50006684500004E6222230680329B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> -------------- Original message from "Simon Fryer" : -------------- > On 10/09/2008, Jason T wrote: Tue, Sep 9, 2008 at 11:07 PM, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. > > wrote: > Use a serial terminal on the serial port. :) The DN-3xxx where also used as headless servers and used the serial port to load and set it up. only problem the connector has 3 ports in one. they used a special 1>3 cable to break it out. Just remove the video card. - jerry From tiggerlasv at aim.com Wed Sep 10 12:49:22 2008 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 13:49:22 -0400 Subject: DEQNA/DELQA cab kit with DEUNA/DELUA? Message-ID: <8CAE184B152547F-CDC-41D9@WEBMAIL-NH07.sysops.aol.com> The DEQNA and DEUNA print sets have been on-line for some time. Don't forget the archives and links at: vt100.net/manx Here is the DEUNA link: http://vt100.net/manx/details/1,3463 T From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Sep 10 13:22:13 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 14:22:13 -0400 Subject: Suggestions for cleaning hundreds of socketed chips? In-Reply-To: <48C63133.6000201@msu.edu> References: <48C63133.6000201@msu.edu> Message-ID: <200809101422.14083.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 09 September 2008 04:17, Josh Dersch wrote: > Hey all -- > > I've gotten the power supply in one of my ND-812s running (thanks for > the help w/the 1103 data which helped verify the voltages) and it > appears to be within spec under load (correct voltages, no ripple in the > output, etc...) so I powered the machine on and despite having my > fingers crossed, the machine does not run. (No real surprise there). > Random lights on the front panel, and basically no response to any > toggle switches. > > I started pulling out and reseating the chips on the main CPU board and > powered it up after every few rows, and every time the behavior was > slightly different, so I'm fairly sure that the sockets and chips aren't > all making good connections anymore. Seems like solving this problem > would be a good place to start. > > The problem is that there are 25 rows of 13 chips each (all socketed), > in very close proximity to one another. The chips are in sockets with > wire-wrap pins underneath -- the underside of the main CPU board is a > maze of wire wrapping. Most of the chips have date stamps between 1971 > and 1973, but luckily most of them aren't corroded to the point where > they're falling apart. > > How would you suggest cleaning the sockets and the chips to ensure good > connections? Take it outside and blast away at it with compressed air. Some stuff that I've dealt with has a lot of fairly find dust all over the innards of it, and even nice gold-plated machined-contact sockets aren't working right any more because of that stuff -- which came into the equipment by way of forced air cooling. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Sep 10 13:31:13 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 14:31:13 -0400 Subject: Mac SE Flyback! In-Reply-To: <4e4224decd395af2f679894c72bddb62.squirrel@webmail.io.com> References: <200809101701.m8AH151a011358@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4e4224decd395af2f679894c72bddb62.squirrel@webmail.io.com> Message-ID: <200809101431.13752.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 10 September 2008 13:05, Jeff Walther wrote: > > Date: Tue, 9 Sep 2008 07:48:39 -0700 (PDT) > > From: Julian Skidmore > > Subject: Mac SE Flyback! > > > >> > ..the Mac's good, but the flyback Transformer burnt out a while > >> > >> You can have it, or just the flyback, for the cost of shipping from > >> Switzerland. > > > > but it's my best (and only) offer! > > They (compact Mac flybacks) are hard to find these days. I was kind of > hoping your posting would cause someone to pop up and point, "That place > over there has hundreds of them" or to discover that there is an > alternative usable part number which is still available. The ringing > silence probably means that they are as rare as they seem to be now days. > Sigh. > > Jeff Walther Odds are that it's the same as some other parts that are out there, but what specific characterizations that aren't provided might be useful to determine that I don't know offhand. There used to be commonly yokes and flybacks and such available from places catering to the TV repair trade. I don't know if any of these companies are still in business or not. It may be too that some places selling to that trade might be able to help cross-reference such a beast. I had to get a flyback for a monitor at one point, a "BMC" (which I actually have service data for!) and was able to find one at MCM Electronics, which I think has since been bought up by some other company but I think they're still around. Places like that might be worth investigating... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Sep 10 15:34:25 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 15:34:25 -0500 Subject: any Apollo fans out yonder? In-Reply-To: <091020081736.20066.48C805A50006684500004E6222230680329B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> References: <475613.43223.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <48C6702B.5040407@gmail.com> <48C74803.5070303@hawkmountain.net> <51ea77730809092115j53c87334yd2064640a1aceacf@mail.gmail.com> <091020081736.20066.48C805A50006684500004E6222230680329B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> Message-ID: <51ea77730809101334o35eca59dnb86689bb4bc2c799@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 12:36 PM, wrote: > The DN-3xxx where also used as headless servers and used the serial > port to load and set it up. only problem the connector has 3 ports in one. > they used a special 1>3 cable to break it out. Just remove the video card. I'm guessing removing the vid card would force the Apollo to show console on the serial port? How hard is to find/make the 1>3 serial cable? What form does the O/S take for th 3500? Disk or tape? Is it public domain or abandonware yet? From fryers at gmail.com Wed Sep 10 16:15:06 2008 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 22:15:06 +0100 Subject: any Apollo fans out yonder? In-Reply-To: <51ea77730809101334o35eca59dnb86689bb4bc2c799@mail.gmail.com> References: <475613.43223.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <48C6702B.5040407@gmail.com> <48C74803.5070303@hawkmountain.net> <51ea77730809092115j53c87334yd2064640a1aceacf@mail.gmail.com> <091020081736.20066.48C805A50006684500004E6222230680329B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> <51ea77730809101334o35eca59dnb86689bb4bc2c799@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: 2008/9/10 Jason T : > On Wed, Sep 10, 2008 at 12:36 PM, wrote: >> The DN-3xxx where also used as headless servers and used the serial >> port to load and set it up. only problem the connector has 3 ports in one. >> they used a special 1>3 cable to break it out. Just remove the video card. > > I'm guessing removing the vid card would force the Apollo to show > console on the serial port? How hard is to find/make the 1>3 serial > cable? It should be a simple case of not having a keyboard. I don't think removing the graphics card is necessary. I don't recall it being anything special, so 9600 baud, 8 data bits no parity should work just fine. The 1 > 3 serial cable is pretty trivial to make if you have a soldering iron. The first serial port - the one that does console action - is at all the usual pins for PC crippled 25 pin RS232. At least pins 2,3 and 7! > What form does the O/S take for th 3500? Disk or tape? Is it public > domain or abandonware yet? Later versions are on tape. O/S is DomainOS. Latest version of DomainOS needs the November 1997 date patches. I am guessing close to abandonware - but not quite. As I understand it, HP is still the copyright holder. I seem to remember reading something that effectively states that the license goes with the hardware - so by owning the hardware you effectively have a license to run DomainOS on that hardware. I'll recheck this next time I can get at a booting DomainOS machine. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From brain at jbrain.com Wed Sep 10 16:36:06 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 16:36:06 -0500 Subject: [Fwd: Re: SuperPET MMU] Message-ID: <48C83DC6.50903@jbrain.com> I hate to include folks mid-discussion, but Mike is trying to get the SuperPET functionality running, and it refers to a HOSTCM program running on VM/CMS. Anyone have a copy, some insight, etc.? Jim -------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: SuperPET MMU Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 13:17:20 -0700 From: Mike Naberezny To: Jim Brain References: <48C2236E.5060303 at naberezny.com> <48C352FD.1040200 at jbrain.com> <48C3574B.8010805 at naberezny.com> <48C59CCB.1000300 at jbrain.com> Jim Brain wrote: > Hmm, a mystery. Any chance you can sniff the UART traffic? Yes, I can do that. I already made a sniffer for another project. I'm not sure it will give much insight with the SuperPET alone. I'd probably need to listen to something speaking HOSTCM with the SuperPET. However, observing the bytes sent from the SuperPET when it initiates a transfer might give clues. I did find something interesting in a VM/CMS (mainframe OS) reference manual [1]. If you search for HOSTCM in that document, there is mention that a "MANUAL" command outputs the HOSTCM specifications. It also says "The KERMIT command also performs most of the functions of HOSTCM". It seems likely then that HOSTCM is a built on the Kermit protocol. This seems further confirmed by a message [2] from William Levak on cbm-hackers a while back. Although all of his attempts to transfer files from the SuperPET with "normal" file transfer protocols failed, he says Kermit did more than the others. This gives me a few good next steps. I'll play around with Kermit while monitoring the RS-232 lines. From web searches, I found there are also some mainframe guys that are running VM/CMS in emulators these days. I'll try to make some contacts and see if someone has HOSTCM and can run that "MANUAL" command on it. Regards, Mike [1] http://ukcc.uky.edu/ukccinfo/391/cmsref.html [2] http://www.softwolves.pp.se/misc/arkiv/cbm-hackers/1/1128.html -- Mike Naberezny (mike at naberezny.com) http://6502.org -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Sep 10 18:09:28 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 16:09:28 -0700 Subject: any Apollo fans out yonder? Message-ID: <48C853A8.9050903@bitsavers.org> > I am guessing close to abandonware - but not quite. As I understand > it, HP is still the copyright holder. CHM is currently working with the HP archivist to try to get the Apollo code released under similar terms as the HP1000. One of the hangups is the UNIX licensing. From chd_1 at nktelco.net Wed Sep 10 18:19:05 2008 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H Dickman) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 19:19:05 -0400 Subject: Intersil Intercept Models... In-Reply-To: <000e01c91353$05245410$0f6cfc30$@com> References: <000e01c91353$05245410$0f6cfc30$@com> Message-ID: <48C855E9.8070109@nktelco.net> Bob Armstrong wrote: > Intersil made several PDP-8 "work a likes" based on their 6100 chip, and > I'm trying to figure out a few of the exact details. OK, I know this is > really obscure, but I'm hoping somebody out there has used one or at least > seen one :-) > I have an Intersil databook copyright 1982 that describes some of these things. It is a product line book with abbreviated data sheets. > made a thing called the "Micro12" which was a little like the Intercept Jr > No mention of the Micro12, but then this is an Intersil manual. > And the "Intercept I/II Microcomputer Development Manual" (which I do > No mention of the Intercept I, but there is an Intercept III. This is the same basic size as the Intercept II, but has a power switch, power light, and reset switch on the front (no switch panel) and comes with 32kW as standard. The option cards listed are the same for both the Intercept II and III, so it must be bus compatible. > BUT, I've also seen pictures of something that looks like an Intercept I > (exact same chassis), but with a lights and switches front panel. Intersil > Nothing like that in this book. > Also, Intersil had their own disk (floppy disk, that is) operating system > for the Intercept I/II called IFDOS. I have a manual for IFDOS, but it > doesn't describe the floppy disk hardware for the Intercept. Was it a clone > of the RX01/RX8E? Have any copies of IFDOS media survived? > The only disk controller mentioned is the "6914 IFDC Double Density DMA Floppy Disk Controller." The page is pretty much wasted with useless information, and there is no mention of RX8E compatibility. The text states that it has an "LSI controller" and that "you can choose the drive and format best suited to your application." There is a page for 6970-IFDOS. No mention of platform other than Intercept development system. One bullet says "IBM 3470 compatible media with multiple sources" and the follow says "Software compatible with DEC RX8 for the PDP-8 minicomputers." > Thanks! > Bob Armstrong > Perhaps a little more information than you had. -chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Sep 10 18:45:23 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 16:45:23 -0700 Subject: Intersil Intercept Models... Message-ID: <48C85C13.3020207@bitsavers.org> > Also, Intersil had their own disk (floppy disk, that is) operating system > for the Intercept I/II called IFDOS. I have a manual for IFDOS, but it > doesn't describe the floppy disk hardware for the Intercept. Was it a clone > of the RX01/RX8E? Have any copies of IFDOS media survived? Charlie Lasner wrote it. I'm sure he must have a copy. From chd_1 at nktelco.net Wed Sep 10 19:19:58 2008 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H Dickman) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 20:19:58 -0400 Subject: Intersil Intercept Models... In-Reply-To: <48C85C13.3020207@bitsavers.org> References: <48C85C13.3020207@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <48C8642E.3010203@nktelco.net> Al Kossow wrote: > > for the Intercept I/II called IFDOS. I have a manual for IFDOS, but it > > Charlie Lasner wrote it. I'm sure he must have a copy. > And he will be able to explain it with incredible detail and multiple digressions and etc. He seems to have disappeared. I have not seen a posting from Mr. Lasner on pdp8-lovers in years. I know him mostly from the archives, and his PDP-8 knowledge is encyclopedic. -chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Sep 10 19:32:34 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 20:32:34 -0400 Subject: [Fwd: Re: SuperPET MMU] In-Reply-To: <48C83DC6.50903@jbrain.com> References: <48C83DC6.50903@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <14729B01-4F0C-46DC-8A24-B272B0D8ED7A@neurotica.com> On Sep 10, 2008, at 5:36 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > I hate to include folks mid-discussion, but Mike is trying to get > the SuperPET functionality running, and it refers to a HOSTCM > program running on VM/CMS. Anyone have a copy, some insight, etc.? ... >> This gives me a few good next steps. I'll play around with Kermit >> while monitoring the RS-232 lines. From web searches, I found >> there are also some mainframe guys that are running VM/CMS in >> emulators these days. I'll try to make some contacts and see if >> someone has HOSTCM and can run that "MANUAL" command on it. I have a running installation of VM/CMS (on real hardware no less); I'll see if I can determine if HOSTCM is present. (unless Sridhar knows offhand; he has used my system) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bob at jfcl.com Wed Sep 10 20:27:54 2008 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 18:27:54 -0700 Subject: Intersil Intercept Models... Message-ID: <001201c913ad$9d440380$d7cc0a80$@com> Al Kossow wrote: > Charlie Lasner wrote it [Intersil IFDOS]. I'm sure he must have a copy. You don't say.... Small world, eh? So is IFDOS in any way related to PS?8 ? Charles H Dickman wrote: > He seems to have disappeared. I have not seen a posting from Mr. Lasner >on pdp8-lovers in years. I last spoke to CJL in 2006 when he contacted me about the SBC6120, so he is still around. He just doesn't post as much as he used to. Bob From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Wed Sep 10 21:11:30 2008 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 21:11:30 -0500 Subject: Suggestions for cleaning hundreds of socketed chips? In-Reply-To: <200809101422.14083.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <48C63133.6000201@msu.edu> <200809101422.14083.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: If these are standard wire wrap boards with machine pin sockets - they are sort of self cleaning on insertion. with a screwdriver, (lever off adjacent IC) end then other end, walk the ic 3/4 out of the socket and re-insert it. 10 minutes to do the whole board 25 rows of 13 chips. I bet that brings you back up. Pencil eraser on the gold fingers on the card edge too, until they are nice and bright. Randy > Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 14:22:13 -0400 > From: rtellason at verizon.net > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Suggestions for cleaning hundreds of socketed chips? > > On Tuesday 09 September 2008 04:17, Josh Dersch wrote: > > Hey all -- > > > > I've gotten the power supply in one of my ND-812s running (thanks for > > the help w/the 1103 data which helped verify the voltages) and it > > appears to be within spec under load (correct voltages, no ripple in the > > output, etc...) so I powered the machine on and despite having my > > fingers crossed, the machine does not run. (No real surprise there). > > Random lights on the front panel, and basically no response to any > > toggle switches. > > > > I started pulling out and reseating the chips on the main CPU board and > > powered it up after every few rows, and every time the behavior was > > slightly different, so I'm fairly sure that the sockets and chips aren't > > all making good connections anymore. Seems like solving this problem > > would be a good place to start. > > > > The problem is that there are 25 rows of 13 chips each (all socketed), > > in very close proximity to one another. The chips are in sockets with > > wire-wrap pins underneath -- the underside of the main CPU board is a > > maze of wire wrapping. Most of the chips have date stamps between 1971 > > and 1973, but luckily most of them aren't corroded to the point where > > they're falling apart. > > > > How would you suggest cleaning the sockets and the chips to ensure good > > connections? > > Take it outside and blast away at it with compressed air. > > Some stuff that I've dealt with has a lot of fairly find dust all over the > innards of it, and even nice gold-plated machined-contact sockets aren't > working right any more because of that stuff -- which came into the equipment > by way of forced air cooling. > > > -- > Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and > ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can > be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" > - > Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James > M Dakin _________________________________________________________________ See how Windows Mobile brings your life together?at home, work, or on the go. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093182mrt/direct/01/ From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 10 22:19:20 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 20:19:20 -0700 Subject: Suggestions for cleaning hundreds of socketed chips? In-Reply-To: References: <48C63133.6000201@msu.edu>, <200809101422.14083.rtellason@verizon.net>, Message-ID: <48C82BC8.20720.CB6FC82@cclist.sydex.com> My take on this: On 10 Sep 2008 at 21:11, Randy Dawson wrote: > with a screwdriver, (lever off adjacent IC) end then other end, walk > the ic 3/4 out of the socket and re-insert it. 10 minutes to do the > whole board 25 rows of 13 chips. I've found that stuff stored for a long time builds up a coating of dust and gunk (oil, grease?). Better to use a solvent cleaner on the chips and sockets than shove the crud back into the socket. I wouldn't use a screwdriver--take some scrap steel or aluminum sheet metal and use it to make an "L" shape. The length of the horizontal part of the "L" should be nearly the length of the chip and about 2/3rds the width of the chip between pins; the vertical part should be long enough for you to use it as a handle. Slip the leg of the L under the chip and gently rock it from side to side using the vertical handle until the chip pops out. You're much less likely to bend the chip pins this way. > Pencil eraser on the gold fingers on the card edge too, until they are > nice and bright. If you have to use an eraser, use a gum-rubber one without the "grit" most pencil erasers have. Better just to wipe the edge connectors with a contact cleaning solution. My .02 anyway, Chuck From hpjimbondoris123 at dorisland.net Wed Sep 10 03:33:20 2008 From: hpjimbondoris123 at dorisland.net (hpjimbondoris123 at dorisland.net) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 02:33:20 -0600 Subject: Any TI99 Folks out there? Message-ID: <000501c9131f$e7cc7560$0f00a8c0@pentium4> I agree the cartridge is required having many cartridges that is what I hate about it ONLY 1 cartridge jim From djg at pdp8online.com Wed Sep 10 06:53:00 2008 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 07:53:00 -0400 Subject: Does anyone have an electronic copy of the "OS/8 Software Support Manual"? Message-ID: <200809101153.m8ABr0dP011800@quoth.pdp8online.com> I have OSSMA as a poster indicated and can scan it next week after VCF. The table of contents is very similar to OSSMB so its likely not that different. It doesn't obviously say what version of OS/8 it is for. From INNERCTYCMP at aol.com Wed Sep 10 07:27:24 2008 From: INNERCTYCMP at aol.com (INNERCTYCMP at aol.com) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 08:27:24 EDT Subject: Memorex/Telex terminals desperately needed for $$CASH$$ Message-ID: Have available the following Memorex telex terminals (60) M/T 1476 A2/G2 with keyboard (3) M/T 080 no keyboard Thanks George Ics Computers PH#404.396.8672 **************Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com. (http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014) From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Sep 10 19:00:24 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 20:00:24 -0400 Subject: Intersil Intercept Models... Message-ID: <0K7000J4H7ZNKE58@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Intersil Intercept Models... > From: "Bob Armstrong" > Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 07:39:24 -0700 > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" > > Intersil made several PDP-8 "work a likes" based on their 6100 chip, and >I'm trying to figure out a few of the exact details. OK, I know this is >really obscure, but I'm hoping somebody out there has used one or at least >seen one :-) > > The Intercept Jr was the SYM or KIM like single board computer with a >chiclet keypad and seven segment displays and powered by D cells. That >one's easy to identify. However, after they bought out Intersil, Harris >made a thing called the "Micro12" which was a little like the Intercept Jr >but is clearly not the same. There are no D cells on the Micro12 for one >thing, and more logic on board for another. I only have pictures of the >Micro12, but no details. Does anybody know any more about this gizmo? There was a 6100 sampler that was a minimal board with TTY interface. I have one of those. The Intercept-JR did have batteries, it was one of the features all cmos and low power. Fun to play with and useful. The Micro12 was the same beast from memory. If I could find details on the -JR I'd build one. > And the "Intercept I/II Microcomputer Development Manual" (which I do >have) has pictures and specifications for the Intercept I and II. The I is >in a 3-1/2" chassis that holds four cards horizontally, and the II is a >5-1/4" chassis that holds at least a dozen cards inserted vertically. As >far as I can determine from the manual, the I and II are the same (they use >all the same cards) except for the chassis, and neither one has any kind of >front panel. The front panel is emulated with an ODT like debugger in the >console firmware (a little like the LSI-11). > The Intercept1 was 6100 based and the InterceptII was 6120 basically the same thing from the programmers view with minor differnce. The I used 6100/6102 (PDP-8 with EMA) and the 6120 was the version that integreated the MEDIC part on one chip and also added PDP-8A stack instrucitons (they are really IOTs). The OS was OS278 flavor or compatable at some level with Fortran, FOCAL, ODT and PAL. they also had the PDP-8 tray of tapes kit for non disk or user rolled software. The disk system was PDP-8 RX01/RX8E software compatable. FYI: ODT is a PDP-8 creation that found it way to PDP-11 with some variation. The DECmate (early plain and DM1) and the base Intercept systems have much in common. > BUT, I've also seen pictures of something that looks like an Intercept I >(exact same chassis), but with a lights and switches front panel. Intersil >and Harris both published application notes, #006, that described the "6100 >Operator Console" and the application note even contains a nice photograph >of just such a machine. What model was this? Is it a unique model, was >there a front panel option for an Intercept I? The Intercept manual says >nothing about any kind of front panel. There were flavors of the backplane for turnkey systems without the front pannel (I think power and reset). The other flavor had the operators console (front panel) that was supported with the needed rom and pannel ram. You could also get the operators console for the bare backplane version. > Also, Intersil had their own disk (floppy disk, that is) operating system >for the Intercept I/II called IFDOS. I have a manual for IFDOS, but it >doesn't describe the floppy disk hardware for the Intercept. Was it a clone >of the RX01/RX8E? Have any copies of IFDOS media survived? Yep RX8E based system media and software compatable though differnt internally. The Sampler is very minimal but fun to expand, the Intercept-JR is on my wish list and the Intercept-1 or II were scarce but wouldn't mind having one to go with my PDP-8f, DMIII systems. Allison > >Thanks! >Bob Armstrong > From derschjo at msu.edu Wed Sep 10 22:52:37 2008 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 10 Sep 2008 20:52:37 -0700 Subject: Suggestions for cleaning hundreds of socketed chips? In-Reply-To: <48C82BC8.20720.CB6FC82@cclist.sydex.com> References: <48C63133.6000201@msu.edu>, <200809101422.14083.rtellason@verizon.net>, <48C82BC8.20720.CB6FC82@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <48C89605.4090104@msu.edu> The aluminum sheet idea is great, except that on this board there's really no room to slide it in -- the chips are close enough together that I can barely get a small flat-blade screwdriver between them to pry (gently). And I reseated all the chips the other night (very carefully). Going through with a continuity tester on the first couple rows reveals that about every other chip has at least one pin that's not making good contact... this is going to be an ordeal :). The sockets themselves are going to be a problem -- they have gold contacts (I _think_) but the actual socket doesn't expose any accessible metal surface -- the pins go through a hole (that's just barely larger than a pin) in the plastic sheath and beneath that are the contacts. So getting contact cleaner in there is going to be an interesting problem. I've started taking the chips out one by one and cleaning the legs by running them over a strip of scotch-brite. This clears off the corrosion (and some of these are VERY corroded). I've then been (again, carefully) bending the pins out slightly to allow them all to make good contact with the socket. I did a row and a half last night, verifying the continuity of the connections after each chip. It only took an hour and a half :). At this rate, I'll have all 25 rows done in a couple of weeks :). I'd take some pictures to show you what I'm up against, but I lent my camera out... Thanks for the suggestions... Josh Chuck Guzis wrote: > My take on this: > > On 10 Sep 2008 at 21:11, Randy Dawson wrote: > > >> with a screwdriver, (lever off adjacent IC) end then other end, walk >> the ic 3/4 out of the socket and re-insert it. 10 minutes to do the >> whole board 25 rows of 13 chips. >> > > I've found that stuff stored for a long time builds up a coating of > dust and gunk (oil, grease?). Better to use a solvent cleaner on the > chips and sockets than shove the crud back into the socket. > > I wouldn't use a screwdriver--take some scrap steel or aluminum sheet > metal and use it to make an "L" shape. The length of the horizontal > part of the "L" should be nearly the length of the chip and about > 2/3rds the width of the chip between pins; the vertical part should > be long enough for you to use it as a handle. Slip the leg of the L > under the chip and gently rock it from side to side using the > vertical handle until the chip pops out. You're much less likely to > bend the chip pins this way. > > >> Pencil eraser on the gold fingers on the card edge too, until they are >> nice and bright. >> > > If you have to use an eraser, use a gum-rubber one without the "grit" > most pencil erasers have. Better just to wipe the edge connectors > with a contact cleaning solution. > > My .02 anyway, > Chuck > > > > From fryers at gmail.com Thu Sep 11 05:25:56 2008 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 11:25:56 +0100 Subject: any Apollo fans out yonder? In-Reply-To: <48C853A8.9050903@bitsavers.org> References: <48C853A8.9050903@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 11/09/2008, Al Kossow wrote: > > I am guessing close to abandonware - but not quite. As I understand > > it, HP is still the copyright holder. > > CHM is currently working with the HP archivist to try to get the Apollo > code released under similar terms as the HP1000. One of the hangups is > the UNIX licensing. This is excellent news. I hope CHM are successful! Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Sep 11 07:49:33 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 07:49:33 -0500 Subject: Suggestions for cleaning hundreds of socketed chips? In-Reply-To: <48C89605.4090104@msu.edu> References: <48C63133.6000201@msu.edu>, <200809101422.14083.rtellason@verizon.net>, <48C82BC8.20720.CB6FC82@cclist.sydex.com> <48C89605.4090104@msu.edu> Message-ID: <48C913DD.3000807@gmail.com> Josh Dersch wrote: > I've started taking the chips out one by one and cleaning the legs by > running them over a strip of scotch-brite. This clears off the > corrosion (and some of these are VERY corroded). Ugh. I've seen early ICs where the legs essentially rot from the inside-out; the pins become extremely fragile and prone to just falling off, and no amount of cleaning makes a good connection. I've brought machines back to life where it's just been easier to ditch any IC that looks suspect and replace it with a good part - it's far less trouble than trying to judge how good every single IC leg is. I know what a headache densely-packed boards can be. Sometimes I've found that bending sewing pins right at the tips, hooking them under the ends of the IC and then using a pair of pliers to pull on them is the best way of getting ICs out. cheers Jules From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Sep 11 07:53:16 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 05:53:16 -0700 Subject: Suggestions for cleaning hundreds of socketed chips? In-Reply-To: <48C89605.4090104@msu.edu> References: <48C63133.6000201@msu.edu>, <200809101422.14083.rtellason@verizon.net>, <48C82BC8.20720.CB6FC82@cclist.sydex.com> <48C89605.4090104@msu.edu> Message-ID: > From: derschjo at msu.edu ---snip--- > > I've started taking the chips out one by one and cleaning the legs by > running them over a strip of scotch-brite. This clears off the > corrosion (and some of these are VERY corroded). I've then been (again, > carefully) bending the pins out slightly to allow them all to make good > contact with the socket. I did a row and a half last night, verifying > the continuity of the connections after each chip. It only took an hour > and a half :). At this rate, I'll have all 25 rows done in a couple of > weeks :). > Hi Get some DoweCorning #4 silicon grease. Put this on the leads. It will help improve the contacts and help keep future corrossion from being a problem. Many electrical shops have it. I recall seeing it in the McMaster Carr cat. as well. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ See how Windows connects the people, information, and fun that are part of your life. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093175mrt/direct/01/ From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Sep 11 11:24:33 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 12:24:33 -0400 Subject: Suggestions for cleaning hundreds of socketed chips? In-Reply-To: <48C89605.4090104@msu.edu> References: <48C63133.6000201@msu.edu> <48C82BC8.20720.CB6FC82@cclist.sydex.com> <48C89605.4090104@msu.edu> Message-ID: <200809111224.33584.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 10 September 2008, Josh Dersch wrote: > good contact... this is going to be an ordeal :). The sockets > themselves are going to be a problem -- they have gold contacts (I > _think_) but the actual socket doesn't expose any accessible metal > surface -- the pins go through a hole (that's just barely larger than > a pin) in the plastic sheath and beneath that are the contacts. It sounds like the sockets you have are of the style that never really worked well. You may want to consider removing and replacing all of the sockets, if you want the machine to work reliably, either with turned-pin (machined) sockets, or cheap "wiper" blade sockets, both of which are more reliable than what you have. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Sep 11 11:41:53 2008 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 11:41:53 -0500 Subject: Suggestions for cleaning hundreds of socketed chips? In-Reply-To: <200809111224.33584.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <48C63133.6000201@msu.edu> <48C82BC8.20720.CB6FC82@cclist.sydex.com> <48C89605.4090104@msu.edu> <200809111224.33584.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <48C94A51.5090509@pacbell.net> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Wednesday 10 September 2008, Josh Dersch wrote: >> good contact... this is going to be an ordeal :). The sockets >> themselves are going to be a problem -- they have gold contacts (I >> _think_) but the actual socket doesn't expose any accessible metal >> surface -- the pins go through a hole (that's just barely larger than >> a pin) in the plastic sheath and beneath that are the contacts. > > It sounds like the sockets you have are of the style that never really > worked well. You may want to consider removing and replacing all of > the sockets, if you want the machine to work reliably, either with > turned-pin (machined) sockets, or cheap "wiper" blade sockets, both of > which are more reliable than what you have. > > Pat You mustn't have read the thread. This machine is wire wrapped. Replacing the sockets would be tantamount to building the boards from scratch. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 11 11:53:32 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 09:53:32 -0700 Subject: Suggestions for cleaning hundreds of socketed chips? In-Reply-To: <200809111224.33584.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <48C63133.6000201@msu.edu>, <48C89605.4090104@msu.edu>, <200809111224.33584.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <48C8EA9C.28352.6FEF76@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Sep 2008 at 12:24, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > It sounds like the sockets you have are of the style that never really > worked well. You may want to consider removing and replacing all of > the sockets, if you want the machine to work reliably, either with > turned-pin (machined) sockets, or cheap "wiper" blade sockets, both of > which are more reliable than what you have. ISTR that Josh mentioned that this was a wire-wrap board. I recall some of the WW sockets of the day, ones marketed by TI, for example, were miserable things that also had the unhappy tendency for the contact "fork" to detach from the wire-wrap pin, if the pin got wiggled too much. I don't want to think of the effort involved in replacing them. Probably easier to construct a new board. Cheers, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 11 12:06:31 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 13:06:31 -0400 Subject: Suggestions for cleaning hundreds of socketed chips? In-Reply-To: <48C913DD.3000807@gmail.com> References: <48C63133.6000201@msu.edu>, <200809101422.14083.rtellason@verizon.net>, <48C82BC8.20720.CB6FC82@cclist.sydex.com> <48C89605.4090104@msu.edu> <48C913DD.3000807@gmail.com> Message-ID: <68CD4FAB-E827-44A6-BE00-C958727C1920@neurotica.com> On Sep 11, 2008, at 8:49 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: >> I've started taking the chips out one by one and cleaning the legs >> by running them over a strip of scotch-brite. This clears off the >> corrosion (and some of these are VERY corroded). > > Ugh. I've seen early ICs where the legs essentially rot from the > inside-out; the pins become extremely fragile and prone to just > falling off, and no amount of cleaning makes a good connection. I've seen that too! WTF causes that? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Sep 11 12:07:03 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 10:07:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Suggestions for cleaning hundreds of socketed chips? In-Reply-To: <48C8EA9C.28352.6FEF76@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <670152.2974.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Thu, 9/11/08, Chuck Guzis wrote: > ISTR that Josh mentioned that this was a wire-wrap board. > I recall > some of the WW sockets of the day, ones marketed by TI, for > example, > were miserable things that also had the unhappy tendency > for the > contact "fork" to detach from the wire-wrap pin, > if the pin got > wiggled too much. Ugh, I think I know the sockets of which you speak. Horrible. It's funny, it seems that in the 70's, TI made simply the worst quality parts imaginable. TI chips from this era are really prone to have corroded legs. -Ian From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Sep 11 12:39:33 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 14:39:33 -0300 Subject: Suggestions for cleaning hundreds of socketed chips? References: <670152.2974.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1f5201c91435$955752c0$03fea8c0@portajara> > It's funny, it seems that in the 70's, TI made simply the worst quality > parts imaginable. TI chips from this era are really prone to have corroded > legs. Not that much different nowadays. Have you seen how thin and fragile are new IC legs (at least in the TTL/CMOS line) from TI and Maxim? :oO From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Sep 11 13:05:01 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 14:05:01 -0400 Subject: Suggestions for cleaning hundreds of socketed chips? In-Reply-To: <48C94A51.5090509@pacbell.net> References: <48C63133.6000201@msu.edu> <200809111224.33584.pat@computer-refuge.org> <48C94A51.5090509@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <200809111405.02020.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 11 September 2008, Jim Battle wrote: > Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > On Wednesday 10 September 2008, Josh Dersch wrote: > >> good contact... this is going to be an ordeal :). The sockets > >> themselves are going to be a problem -- they have gold contacts (I > >> _think_) but the actual socket doesn't expose any accessible metal > >> surface -- the pins go through a hole (that's just barely larger > >> than a pin) in the plastic sheath and beneath that are the > >> contacts. > > > > It sounds like the sockets you have are of the style that never > > really worked well. You may want to consider removing and > > replacing all of the sockets, if you want the machine to work > > reliably, either with turned-pin (machined) sockets, or cheap > > "wiper" blade sockets, both of which are more reliable than what > > you have. > > > > Pat > > You mustn't have read the thread. > > This machine is wire wrapped. Replacing the sockets would be > tantamount to building the boards from scratch. You're right that I haven't been following this thread... Still, my comment stands. I don't think I'd consider it any more work to replace WW ones and re-wrap them than if they were soldered onto a PCB (especially if it has multiple layers), as long as you have some sort of schematice/wire list. If you wanted to be creative, you could probably cut the pins off the old sockets (or disassemble the sockets to get the pins out), and figure out how to replace the sockets (soldering new ones onto the old pins) without having to re-wrap everything. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 11 14:04:34 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 12:04:34 -0700 Subject: Suggestions for cleaning hundreds of socketed chips? In-Reply-To: <1f5201c91435$955752c0$03fea8c0@portajara> References: <670152.2974.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <1f5201c91435$955752c0$03fea8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <48C90952.24053.E7E747@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Sep 2008 at 14:39, Alexandre Souza wrote: > Not that much different nowadays. Have you seen how thin and > fragile are new IC legs (at least in the TTL/CMOS line) from TI and > Maxim? :oO I wonder if this is because of new process technology for RoHS? Cheers, Chuck From RichA at vulcan.com Thu Sep 11 14:07:05 2008 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 12:07:05 -0700 Subject: Does anyone have an electronic copy of the "OS/8SoftwareSupportManual"? In-Reply-To: <20080909092410.GD6492@usap.gov> References: <20080909001330.GA1780@usap.gov> <20080909092410.GD6492@usap.gov> Message-ID: From: Ethan Dicks Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 2:24 AM On Mon, Sep 08, 2008 at 06:33:21PM -0700, Rich Alderson wrote: >>> OSSMB has some stuff about USR in chapter 2, and Appendix F has >>> some code examples of how to do the usual stuff. >>> Was there additional information in OSSMA? >> I have access to hardcopy of two editions, at the computer room. >> I'll check tomorrow and let everyone know. > Thanks, Rich. I'll be interested to hear what differences there > might be. It took a couple of days to get down here--too many things going on at once--but I've finally had a look. OSSMA is simply an earlier edition of OSSMB. There don't appear to be more than cosmetic changes to the content (line spacing was tightened up and a different face was used for the body text). From: Ethan Dicks Sent: Tuesday, September 09, 2008 2:24 AM On Mon, Sep 08, 2008 at 06:33:21PM -0700, Rich Alderson wrote: >>> OSSMB has some stuff about USR in chapter 2, and Appendix F has >>> some code examples of how to do the usual stuff. >>> Was there additional information in OSSMA? >> I have access to hardcopy of two editions, at the computer room. >> I'll check tomorrow and let everyone know. > Thanks, Rich. I'll be interested to hear what differences there > might be. It took a couple of days to get down here--too many things going on at once--but I've finally had a look. OSSMA is simply an earlier edition of OSSMB. There don't appear to be more than cosmetic changes to the content (line spacing was tightened up and a different face was used for the body text). Rich Alderson Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Thu Sep 11 14:24:13 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 19:24:13 +0000 Subject: Does anyone have an electronic copy of the "OS/8SoftwareSupportManual"? In-Reply-To: References: <20080909092410.GD6492@usap.gov> Message-ID: <20080911192413.GA27892@usap.gov> On Thu, Sep 11, 2008 at 12:07:05PM -0700, Rich Alderson wrote: > It took a couple of days to get down here--too many things going on > at once--but I've finally had a look. OSSMA is simply an earlier > edition of OSSMB. There don't appear to be more than cosmetic changes > to the content (line spacing was tightened up and a different face was > used for the body text). Thank you for taking the time to check and thanks for the report. Based on the thread so far, I've been reading up from OSSMB and dusting off very old neurons that were once exposed to that content. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 11-Sep-2008 at 19:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -49.4 F (-45.2 C) Windchill -69.9 F (-56.6 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 4.9 kts Grid 147 Barometer 679.2 mb (10658 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Sep 11 14:43:52 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 14:43:52 -0500 Subject: Suggestions for cleaning hundreds of socketed chips? In-Reply-To: <68CD4FAB-E827-44A6-BE00-C958727C1920@neurotica.com> References: <48C63133.6000201@msu.edu>, <200809101422.14083.rtellason@verizon.net>, <48C82BC8.20720.CB6FC82@cclist.sydex.com> <48C89605.4090104@msu.edu> <48C913DD.3000807@gmail.com> <68CD4FAB-E827-44A6-BE00-C958727C1920@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <48C974F8.70502@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Sep 11, 2008, at 8:49 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: >>> I've started taking the chips out one by one and cleaning the legs by >>> running them over a strip of scotch-brite. This clears off the >>> corrosion (and some of these are VERY corroded). >> >> Ugh. I've seen early ICs where the legs essentially rot from the >> inside-out; the pins become extremely fragile and prone to just >> falling off, and no amount of cleaning makes a good connection. > > I've seen that too! WTF causes that? I know there's been discussion here about it a few years ago. Possibly something along the lines of the inside of the IC leg being a different material to the outside plating, and in some circumstances it can decay much faster than the outer material. I'm not sure if there any wisdom as to whether any particular kind of conditions cause it, or whether it's simply an age-related issue (possibly in conjunction with a particular manufacturing procedure - I don't recall ever seeing it* in anything newer than 1980 or so) * Oddly, I don't think I've come across it in larger chips, either. It's always been in ICs with smaller pin counts; was the production of smaller ICs done in a different way during the '70s to ones with higher numbers of pins? cheers Jules From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Sep 11 14:46:44 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 15:46:44 -0400 Subject: Suggestions for cleaning hundreds of socketed chips? In-Reply-To: <48C90952.24053.E7E747@cclist.sydex.com> References: <670152.2974.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <1f5201c91435$955752c0$03fea8c0@portajara> <48C90952.24053.E7E747@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > > Not that much different nowadays. Have you seen how thin and > > fragile are new IC legs (at least in the TTL/CMOS line) from TI and > > Maxim? :oO > > I wonder if this is because of new process technology for RoHS? I think it is because they can be. Clumsy human fingers do not get near ICs anymore. -- Will From josefcub at gmail.com Thu Sep 11 15:08:14 2008 From: josefcub at gmail.com (Josef Chessor) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 15:08:14 -0500 Subject: Suggestions for cleaning hundreds of socketed chips? In-Reply-To: <48C974F8.70502@gmail.com> References: <48C63133.6000201@msu.edu> <200809101422.14083.rtellason@verizon.net> <48C82BC8.20720.CB6FC82@cclist.sydex.com> <48C89605.4090104@msu.edu> <48C913DD.3000807@gmail.com> <68CD4FAB-E827-44A6-BE00-C958727C1920@neurotica.com> <48C974F8.70502@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9e2403920809111308o1d0853bja42776b19297ecb5@mail.gmail.com> >> On Sep 11, 2008, at 8:49 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: >>>> >>>> I've started taking the chips out one by one and cleaning the legs by >>>> running them over a strip of scotch-brite. This clears off the corrosion >>>> (and some of these are VERY corroded). >>> >>> Ugh. I've seen early ICs where the legs essentially rot from the >>> inside-out; the pins become extremely fragile and prone to just falling off, >>> and no amount of cleaning makes a good connection. >> >> I've seen that too! WTF causes that? > When I was rebuilding my II Plus, I noticed that a goodly amount of the plastic 14-pin DIPs (memory, logic) had black, brittle, or broken legs. The ceramic DIPs on my donor boards were pristine, and the larger chips (like the 6502) were completely unaffected. I'd also like to know what causes it. Josef -- "I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke." -- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs, "The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 11 09:48:05 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 07:48:05 -0700 Subject: Suggestions for cleaning hundreds of socketed chips? In-Reply-To: <48C89605.4090104@msu.edu> References: <48C63133.6000201@msu.edu>, <48C82BC8.20720.CB6FC82@cclist.sydex.com>, <48C89605.4090104@msu.edu> Message-ID: <48C8CD35.21477.F2D8C7F@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Sep 2008 at 20:52, Josh Dersch wrote: > The aluminum sheet idea is great, except that on this board there's > really no room to slide it in -- the chips are close enough together > that I can barely get a small flat-blade screwdriver between them to pry > (gently). You could also try making an extractor that's modeled after forceps-- a short horizontal "L" section on each leg, just long enough to clear the space between chips. Some of the pins on these old ceramic packages are very fragile. > And I reseated all the chips the other night (very carefully). Going > through with a continuity tester on the first couple rows reveals that > about every other chip has at least one pin that's not making good > contact... this is going to be an ordeal :). The sockets themselves are > going to be a problem -- they have gold contacts (I _think_) but the > actual socket doesn't expose any accessible metal surface -- the pins go > through a hole (that's just barely larger than a pin) in the plastic > sheath and beneath that are the contacts. So getting contact cleaner in > there is going to be an interesting problem. DeoxIT comes in an aerosol form, which should allow for easy penetration. The concern here is that with abrasive methods, you're also rubbing off the gold plating with the corrosion. That could mean some misery down the road. None of this may help you if the sockets have degraded to the point where the contacts have deteriorated and cannot make good contact even after cleaning. But a chemical cleaner such as DeoxIT is probably the best way to approach the problem of dirty/corroded contacts. Cheers, Chuck From vrs at msn.com Thu Sep 11 16:11:59 2008 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 14:11:59 -0700 Subject: Suggestions for cleaning hundreds of socketed chips? References: <48C63133.6000201@msu.edu><200809111224.33584.pat@computer-refuge.org><48C94A51.5090509@pacbell.net> <200809111405.02020.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: From: "Patrick Finnegan" > On Thursday 11 September 2008, Jim Battle wrote: >> You mustn't have read the thread. >> >> This machine is wire wrapped. Replacing the sockets would be >> tantamount to building the boards from scratch. > > You're right that I haven't been following this thread... Still, my > comment stands. I don't think I'd consider it any more work to replace > WW ones and re-wrap them than if they were soldered onto a PCB > (especially if it has multiple layers), as long as you have some sort > of schematice/wire list. If you wanted to be creative, you could > probably cut the pins off the old sockets (or disassemble the sockets > to get the pins out), and figure out how to replace the sockets > (soldering new ones onto the old pins) without having to re-wrap > everything. This is similar to a thought that I had. Couldn't you just pop off the plastic bit, insert a machine pin socket into the WW socket, and add a bit of solder to secure electrical and mechanical connection between the the machine pins and the WW socket? (You'd have to make sure the WW pins are anchored firmly to the board first.) You could try just inserting the machine pin socket (without the solder), but I don't know that it would make much better contact than your chips are doing. Vince From evan at snarc.net Thu Sep 11 16:23:23 2008 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 17:23:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Okay, THIS is the final VCF East reminder Message-ID: <2583.24.187.118.142.1221168203.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> Very last pre-show email ..... if you live within a few hundred miles of the Jersey shore, and you dig vintage computers, then don't be a putz! Come to the VCF East 5.0 this weekend. Tickets are 10 bucks for one day or 15 for both days. Free for 17 and younger. Parking's free too. Saturday is usually the busier day, but on Sunday (at 11:30) is a speech by Bill Mauchly, who's the son of John Mauchly, of ENIAC and UNIVAC fame. We're also opening the computer museum here in "beta" mode. More info is at the usual spot: http://www.vintage.org/2008/east/ I'm WAY too busy with final details to check back on cctalk, so if anyone has questions, please just call my cell phone, 646.546.9999. - Evan K. From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Thu Sep 11 16:31:05 2008 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 17:31:05 -0400 Subject: old cd drive model CR-563-BBZ info needed In-Reply-To: <2583.24.187.118.142.1221168203.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> Message-ID: <200809112133.m8BLXBYH077899@keith.ezwind.net> I need to replace an IBM CR-563-BBZ cd rom on an old Win3.1 system. It is not IDE, and is connected to a soundbaster card. I can find CR-563-B drives on ebay but do not know the dif between the CR-563-B and -BBZ. any clues will be helpfull. Bob Bradlee From lynchaj at yahoo.com Thu Sep 11 02:58:32 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 03:58:32 -0400 Subject: Another disk imaging project Message-ID: Hi, I came across the following message from Dave Dunfield from a couple of years ago during a search related to the Z80 i8272 home brew project I am working on. I recently got the i8272 FDC to reliably read sectors from a MS-DOS formatted 5.25" floppy disk drive. This project is underway but I am a long ways from completion. During the debugging of my system, I have noticed that there some possibly useful raw disk signals being generated by the data separator chip. These could be rather easily exported to support a disk imaging project were anyone interesting in such a thing. The signals are going *into* the i8272 (NEC 765) for processing and are raw data signals. The i8272 would not be used to process the data. This *potentially* opens up access to any FM/MFM encoded disk even hard sector. I don't know about other formats such as GCR, M2FM, RX02, etc. Here is what I propose; my SBC and Disk IO board generates intermediate product signals such as "separated clock", "separated data", "clock out", "index", etc and buffer them through a 74LS367 or similar. I am willing to make *MINOR* modifications to the Disk IO board to export these signals via a connector and even add one or two small chips to the design to improve signal quality. I am *NOT* willing to make major modifications to the design at this point as I have a mostly working system and do not want to start over. The intermediate disk signals could, *I believe* be imported into a PC parallel port with "clock out" (typically 500 KHz for MFM DSDD, 250KHz for FM, etc) being used for latch signal. I think they are also slow enough to be practically captured by the PC parallel port. The PC could then sample the parallel port at high rate (interrupt driven? DMA?) to read the signals and create a disk image from the data. Again, the i8272 would not process the signals so they would contain all the data the i8272 processes but will not pass along such as header info, IDAM, CRC, true gap length, etc. I could even include true "raw read" signal which would be the bit transitions straight from the drive however due to the high sampling rate required to accurately capture it I really don't think it would be much use. Would it be possible and/or practical to make a PC based disk imaging tool using the SBC as an intermediate stage? Please note, I am only offering to make minor modifications to my SBC and Disk IO board to support such a project, not to conduct a PC based disk imaging software development project myself. I wrote some hard sector Catweasel programs earlier for Heath, Vector Graphic, and NorthStar so I have some familiarity working with raw disk data, however, the home brew Z80 project is using up all my hobby time. If you are interested please reply here or contact me. Thanks! Andrew Lynch PS Here is the Z80 i8272 home brew project I am working on for background information http://groups.google.com/group/n8vem?hl=en Another disk imaging project Dave Dunfield dave04a at dunfield.com Wed Aug 3 04:58:06 CDT 2005 * Previous message: ImageDisk and some 8' images posted * Next message: Another disk imaging project * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] ________________________________ Hi Guys, I'm really getting fed-up with the limitations of the PC floppy disk controller. Here's another idea I've had on the back-burner for quite some time, I've mentioned to a couple of you during private correspondance, but here it is for open discussion. The idea is to make a small single-board computer with a microcontroller, a WD2793 or similar floppy disk controller, enough memory to buffer a few tracks, and a high-speed serial port for communication with the PC. The board would have connectors for 5.25"/3" drives and 8" drives, and would properly interface to all drive types. Firmware would be developed to provide read/format/write/analysis capabilities around the more powerful WD chip. Images would be transferred via the serial connection to and from the PC. This should allow us to archive soft-sector formats that are not compatible with the PC, and also to perform these functions under virtually any PC environment. I just haven't had time to design and build the board ... anyone else interested in working together on such a project? Regards, Dave -- dave04a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.parse.com/~ddunfield/museum/index.html From dave06a at dunfield.com Thu Sep 11 18:50:15 2008 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 18:50:15 -0500 Subject: old cd drive model CR-563-BBZ info needed In-Reply-To: <200809112133.m8BLXBYH077899@keith.ezwind.net> References: <2583.24.187.118.142.1221168203.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> Message-ID: <26EAF2A108C@dunfield.com> > I need to replace an IBM CR-563-BBZ cd rom on an old Win3.1 system. > It is not IDE, and is connected to a soundbaster card. > > I can find CR-563-B drives on ebay but do not know the dif between the CR-563-B and -BBZ. > > any clues will be helpfull. I have a number of CR-563-B drives, which are not IDE and do connect to sound blaster cards (SBpro and SB16). IIRC they are actually Panasonic drives, and are often seen with the "Creative" logo because they shipped with Sound Blaster bundle kits. Regards, Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org Thu Sep 11 19:16:45 2008 From: oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 18:16:45 -0600 Subject: DEQNA/DELQA cab kit with DEUNA/DELUA? In-Reply-To: <200809111643.m8BGhiJb030674@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200809111643.m8BGhiJb030674@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <48C9B4ED.3020408@rogerwilco.org> > The DEQNA and DEUNA print sets have been on-line for some time. > > Don't forget the archives and links at: vt100.net/manx > Here is the DEUNA link: > > http://vt100.net/manx/details/1,3463 As for locating the DEUNA information, thanks to an earlier respondent, I have dragged a copy of that out of bitsavers.org. For some reason, I just couldn't find it. I must have looked in various PDP subdirs, the ethernet subdir, but missed it in the unibus subdir. Doh! [BTW, a huge thank you to Al and Paul for building and maintaining such valuable resources. Where's the tipping jar, eh, gentlement?] Thanks to all who replied to my original post. It is clear that the cab-kits for QBUS modules are more or less usable with UNIBUS modules. That's the news I was hoping to find. It'll still be a while before I'm ready to test it all out on the 11/750, due to ongoing power supply hickups and troubleshooting, but it shouldn't be long now. Jared From lynchaj at yahoo.com Thu Sep 11 05:40:51 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 06:40:51 -0400 Subject: Intel Application Notes Message-ID: <7CF37EB3E9854D7487C4CEEAA535745A@andrewdesktop> Hi, Does anyone have a copy of the Intel Application Notes AP-116 and AP-121 they'd be willing to scan or place online? They are mentioned in the i8272A datasheet but I cannot find them online anywhere (I tried bitsavers.org/pdf first!) I am building an FDC using an i8272 and would appreciate the additional technical details. Thanks! Andrew Lynch From tponsford at rnsmte.com Thu Sep 11 21:30:26 2008 From: tponsford at rnsmte.com (tponsford) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 19:30:26 -0700 Subject: Osborne 1 Message-ID: <48C9D442.5000307@rnsmte.com> So I was complaining to my significant other on the recent dearth of classic computers at out local university auction! Well the computer gods must have heard me as I got a working Osborne 1 in great condition, with even the cp/m disk in the floppy drive for $15.00 on Tuesday!! I am now only missing a KayPro for my "luggable" collection to be mostly complete!! Cheers Tom From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Sep 11 21:32:14 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 19:32:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Osborne 1 In-Reply-To: <48C9D442.5000307@rnsmte.com> References: <48C9D442.5000307@rnsmte.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 11 Sep 2008, tponsford wrote: > So I was complaining to my significant other on the recent dearth of > classic computers at out local university auction! Well the computer > gods must have heard me as I got a working Osborne 1 in great > condition, with even the cp/m disk in the floppy drive for $15.00 on > Tuesday!! I am now only missing a KayPro for my "luggable" collection to > be mostly complete!! Fancy an Osborne Executive? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Sep 11 21:57:04 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 22:57:04 -0400 Subject: Osborne 1 In-Reply-To: References: <48C9D442.5000307@rnsmte.com> Message-ID: <200809112257.05683.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 11 September 2008 22:32, David Griffith wrote: > On Thu, 11 Sep 2008, tponsford wrote: > > So I was complaining to my significant other on the recent dearth of > > classic computers at out local university auction! Well the computer > > gods must have heard me as I got a working Osborne 1 in great > > condition, with even the cp/m disk in the floppy drive for $15.00 on > > Tuesday!! I am now only missing a KayPro for my "luggable" collection to > > be mostly complete!! > > Fancy an Osborne Executive? I've always liked the Exec. That was my first personal machine... :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Sep 12 00:43:32 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 00:43:32 -0500 Subject: Another disk imaging project In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48CA0184.2000807@oldskool.org> Andrew Lynch wrote: > The intermediate disk signals could, *I believe* be imported into a PC > parallel port with "clock out" (typically 500 KHz for MFM DSDD, 250KHz for > FM, etc) being used for latch signal. I think they are also slow enough to > be practically captured by the PC parallel port. The PC could then sample > the parallel port at high rate (interrupt driven? DMA?) to read the signals > and create a disk image from the data. Again, the i8272 would not process > the signals so they would contain all the data the i8272 processes but will > not pass along such as header info, IDAM, CRC, true gap length, etc. The Disk2FDI project has already done this; give it a look to see if it applies to your situation. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From RichA at vulcan.com Thu Sep 11 13:45:34 2008 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 11:45:34 -0700 Subject: Intersil Intercept Models... In-Reply-To: <48C8642E.3010203@nktelco.net> References: <48C85C13.3020207@bitsavers.org> <48C8642E.3010203@nktelco.net> Message-ID: From: Charles H Dickman Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2008 5:20 PM > Al Kossow wrote: >>> for the Intercept I/II called IFDOS. I have a manual for >>> IFDOS, but it >> Charlie Lasner wrote it. I'm sure he must have a copy. > And he will be able to explain it with incredible detail and > multiple digressions and etc. > He seems to have disappeared. I have not seen a posting from > Mr. Lasner on pdp8-lovers in years. I know him mostly from the > archives, and his PDP-8 knowledge is encyclopedic. I forwarded these comments to Charles, who tells me he's been tied up with one thing and another for a long time now, and asked me to forward the following comments. If you don't have time to read all of it now, skip to the bottom for the _post scriptum_. Rich Alderson Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com (206) 342-2239 (206) 465-2916 cell ___________________________________________________________________ P?S/8 was created as an outgrowth of the original Richard Lary/Lennie Elekman system eventually sent to DECUS called the R-L monitor. Many people contributed to the original project beyond the priniciple two people; all of the work was done physically within Brooklyn Poly by people who met each other there in various academic phases, etc. I would estimate the R-L work to have been the work of a whole lot of individuals contributing their single-digit % to the project after they got it working after literally toggling in the original code. I mean it literally; merely hand assembling wasn't enough; this was hand entered on the straight PDP-8 console. Years later, the machine broke and went into disuse; fortunately at the time, we had a PDP-12 on loan from DEC courtesy of Jack Burness, then currently working on LAP6-DIAL and later the beginnings of PS/8 were starting to appear from Richard Lary, as well as Lennie Elekman working on what became FOCAL-12 for DIAL, etc. During this era, I was not only one of the people working on the -12, which was literally used 24/7 [we had a bed there!], but I was also repairing various aspects of the PDP-8 which eventually the EE department thanked me for repairing, etc. Leaving out all of the relevant details except one: I literally replaced every slide switch on the front panel of that machine as they had worn it out! Anyway, by the time it was submitted to DECUS, I personally had worked on the first fully-binary-compatible patch to FOCAL, 1969 to add access to the R-L system to FOCAL with literally only an overlay binary I wrote. The theory was to retain maximum binary compatibility to be as compatible to all the works of others as could ever be hoped for, working in little 'holes" of code that could be dispensed with. For example, by the judicious use of super-squeezed code and co-routines, I was able to place the file unpacking interface to the R-L system over FOCAL's high-speed reader interface [which we didn't have nor does it make sense to care about in an environment where FOCAL is running under an OS instead of the original design as truly stand-alone. Additionally, I took back any-model compatibility and reduced it to family-of-8 compatibility. Thus, key locations could be bummed back by removing PDP-5 and PDP-8/S compatibility. [Note that PS/8/OS/8 and R-L and P?S/8 all only run on family-of-8 or perhaps some subset of newer; only the Disk Monitor System attempts to use PDP-8/S and FOCAL could use -8/S and -5.] Still others contributed yet other stuff, but we had to start somewhere. Some months later, I and several other people started all over again to produce what started out as a functional superset of R-L which later became known as P?S/8. Please note that all of the people who had gone before me who went to work for DEC became an isolationist group with the unfortunate [to this day!] misunderstanding that P?S/8 is NOT the R-L monitor. Despite Richard Lary's tremendous start in R-L, we did not use one line of his code, and we were not slavish to his limitations that largely came about because ultimately the R-L system is quite expedient. We had the advantage of being able to actually develop our code on an OS [the running R-L monitor system], while they had to hand-assemble and toggle it in. Additionally, we had some intermittent contact with TECO and PAL10 at nearby Stevens Tech in Hoboken to occasionally get real lineprinter listings, as long as we stuck with PAL10, which eventually became a hindrance due to lack of total compatibility. Along the way, the sources were converted and developed on a mixture of PAL10 and later PAL8-on-OS/8 development, but only after I got Richard Lary to literally apologize to me for the sorry state of PAL8 as a language. [He had been pulled into many directions while working for DEC and was relying on others to work on stuff such as PAL8. To my knowledge, most of it was the product originally of Mark Bramhall modifying something dreadful such as the Disk Monitor PAL-D, but frankly, what was done was rather poor.] Richie spent several weeks working on getting PAL8 to nearly where it exists today, which is a major step forward, albeit still slightly limited in some galling [to me and some others] ways. If you look through my code for Kermit-12, there is a chart explaining the still lingering nagging differences between P?S/8 PAL, PAL10, and PAL8. At least we are at the stage where a single page describes the differences! But some of the differences are quite frustrating. Curiously, PAL10 has become worthless for meaning development and many P?S/8 and OS/8 source code cannot be assembled on PAL10 for the want of a few pathetic nails. It would be real nice if PAL10 could be modernized to fix these few relatively minor problems, but essentially they are fatal. [To be fair: Some of the features were the outgrowth of features I added to P?S/8 PAL and Stan Rabinowitz added to PAL8, he seeing the fundamental need for these features as much as I did; it really became indispensable for code that has to be developed on a system where stuff gets swapped in, etc. PAL10 predated any care for this; it does all anyone in a paper-tape environment would want, but that's not enough, etc. In any case, a PDP-10 guy armed with the spec for what is needed could fix this probably in a few hours, etc.] In any case, P?S/8 source code is limited to strictly whatever can pass through PAL8, while I have written applications that in turn can only be assembled by P?S/8 PAL taking advantages of the still-further incompatibility using features only P?S/8 PAL has. OS/8 can never get to this level without a total rewrite of PAL8, as it is conceptually flawed on many levels. The easiest way would be to modify P?S/8 PAL to support an OS/8 environment. In theory, that task could fall on me if I choose to do so, but for the most part, I did not want to divert myself from advancing P?S/8, which to this day is actually not complete, but is fairly viable. Actually, I recommend the use of P?S/8 on systems too small to support OS/8 in any meaningful way because it is impossible if not enough memory or just too tedious for everyday usage. On larger configurations, I use both interchangably to take advantage of the best of both worlds, etc. As the capabilities of P?S/8 have substantially grown, I find less and less dependency on the smaller subset of OS/8 I depend upon, but it is a finite number, thus I cannot completely "cut the chord" at this point. Getting together a large block of time may lead to a large dent in this remaining obstacle to total independence, etc. [To repeat, P?S/8 has had an amazing amount of effort already applied, and it is a far cry from the original R-L monitor; the reality of just how different it really is is inversely proportional to the fairy-tale conventional wisdom of what people who believe it must merely be the R-L monitor amounts to. The credibility gap is that vast! A personal frustration is that the isolationist group has gotten lazy over the years and are dead-set in their inadvertent prejudice. It is a fact that they are lazy, and I say that as their friend. However, I am not lazy! I resent being presumed to be as minimally productive as they are. Such is what happens when you work for DEC and related companies too long, etc. This is not to say they didn't accomplish something, far from that. It's just that the time they took to do it in doesn't justify the quantity produced that isn't mediocre. The environment they worked in allowed this to happen, etc.] Part of this disparity is because certain individuals only had contact with versions of P?S/8 that were as much as seven years of heavy development away from where I was at the time. Thus, their myopia is understandable; they needed to get back in contact with me to find out just how much they were missing. However, I have to tell you that I eventually gave up on trying to give it away to people who were essentially OS/8 bigots. That someone else could do something else that could possibly matter was outside their ability to understand. Thus, my "user group" consisted of not much more than a few close friends and some then-contemporanous employers I worked for on various basis, either as a consultant or actually as a full-time employee [and in one period of my life not only both, but multiple in both categories, all at the same time!]. Please note that there was never any actual monetary motivation here, just wanting to do a better job. From my vantage point, and I say this knowing that much of it was done by people I consider my personal friends, I have always found OS/8 to be quite mediocre once you get past the notion that the PDP-8 is an amazingly powerful little machine. While you could argue today this is orders of magnitude out of context, even back then there is always the notion of wasting resources. To be specific, considering that P?S/8 is designed to run just about anything it can do in 4K doesn't justify what they did requiring a minimum of 8K. Their designs are lacking in planning; a lot of it just hatched, and Richard Lary was not good at preventing others from causing design creep internally. OS/8 tends to have a whole lot of bases covered, just that many of them aren't covered as well as they should be. And along the way, it paints itself into a corner that no one wants to fix with the predictable results of a forced level of mediocrity. Please note that I say this without the benefit of hindsight. All hindsight has added is conformation of what I was saying all along; it was quite predictable, etc. Despite this, I have periodically called for an effort to get an "overhaul" of OS/8 so that it could again at least work as well on newer machines as the original version worked on older machines. [I am now speaking to the various problems of the micro-8 systems up to the DECmate III+ .] Along the way to where P?S/8 was later, there was an intermediate level that was contemporaneous with the development of the IM6100 by A. Thampy Thomas who went to work for Intersil to make his master's thesis into an actual product. DEC had no problem selling Intersil the PDP-8 paper-tape software copies, as long as they gave each and every original copy to their customers, not making Intersil copies of the tapes, etc. But it became clear that DEC was not going to be able to give them something to run on the micro that was more viable than paper-tape. At this point of the story, I have to introduce some hardware companies I was dealing with: while DEC was playing with various disk designs that were the outgrowth of the IBM System 3, most notably the Diablo model 40 series [various versions were found as prototypes on in-house PDP-11 systems within DEC], a company in Arizona emerged called Western Dynex which produced what was for then a rather remarkable product: A 5.0 MB fixed disk with a removable cartridge disk above it, also 5.0 MB. This is a disk based on alignable heads, much like an improved grade of RK05 disk, but is a top-loader for the top section. All DEC eventually sold at this point was the 2.5 MB RK05, which was merely better than the RK01 which was 1.25 MB and DEC only made the controller, not the disk drive or related electronics [anyone remember which company made the RK01 drive and electronics?] Not only much faster seeking, it was as good as 4 RK05s with sufficient flexibility to allow drive backup with some artful drive swaps. [I leave it to the reader to figure out how to copy the bottom and top disks onto a pair of backup empty disks, and then restore the disks to the state it was before the backup! The hint is that you have to destroy the original copy of the bottom disk along the way, etc.] At the same time, DEC had not gotten involved yet with micro-8 hardware, in part because of the obvious bad blood between DEC and Intersil over the IM6100. I had in front of me an internal DEC lawyer's position on the paper-tape software: The guy said that it was OK for Intersil to buy and then resell paper-tape copies of the software to its customers because they, not DEC, made the claim that the software was compatible, and as such, it was not a committment by DEC, etc. So much for the convoluted logic of lawyers, etc. However, eventually DEC did deal with Intersil's second-source company, Harris, who made the identical chip called the HM6100. However, when DEC attempted to make this into what eventually became the VT-78, a lot of performance loss occured. The VT-78 was a needlessly mediocre product; Intersil without DEC's heavy-handedness could do better. Intersil started a project later known as the Intercept. This was a totally-compatible system based on the IM6100 running at the standard speed [not the crippled 65% speed of the VT-78] and this was quite significent as it turned out. The IM6100 is quite slow compared to a PDP-8/e, that it is quite closely compatible with. [The differences are a small handful of added instructions that do not exist on prior models, and also the lack of an obscurity that only exists on the PDP-8/e CPU itself, which, while similar to, is not quite the same as the same instruction on the PDP-8/a CPU. See the source code of Kermit-12 for a complete explanation of all model-dependent differences, etc. All of the superset instructions of all processors are not generally used in any practical OS code, but technically, one of the ways you can tell it's an IM6100 is that an obscure extension of the PDP-8/e and a similar yet different one of the PDP-8/a is NOT present, while a superset instruction only found in the 6100 and up is present. Later the 6120 would add an additional instruction beyond this, as well as more general speed improvement, etc.] At this point in time, it was clear that the peripheral of choice on all of these small systems was based on the RX01 or equivalent. Indeed, a pair is slapped onto the VT-78 to make it more useful than merely a VT52 emulator, etc. despite it being built into the case of one, etc. The problem with the RX01 is that the code space within OS/8 only allows for a rather meager handler for the device. The first attempt at a handler led to a rather unique event: I think this is the only DEC handler that was summarily dropped due to impossibility of usage. In short it literally didn't work! Here is the problem: Media such as the RX01 cannot be practical without the ability to retry. It's just gonna fail periodically, generally recovering if you do some error recovery and then internally retry the read, etc. [This is common practice on just about any disk-type device you can name.] This defective handler had a retry count of three, which is fine. However, if you ever retry at all, due to the way the code is written into a corner, it is not viable. The reason is that while this works for a read operation, the "figure-8 loop" code is also used for writing, a common trick for handler writers used on all sorts of PDP-8 devices that do not use DMA, etc. However, if you in fact get an error while writing, pray that it fails three times! Because should it get one or two errors, it will APPARENTLY succeed to have written what you asked it to. However, what you actually wind up with is the contents of track 1, sector 1 are written out to the desired sector instead of what you asked to have written there!!!!!!! Yes, it destroys your system at random depending on phases-of-the-moon error situations. There isn't even enough room in the handler to setup a more-than-one chance to read while a once-only chance to write, which would at least not lie to you about the handler call completing successfully, albeit more likely to fail than in theory a better handler could be depended on. Thus, the only choice was to set the retry count to one and suffer a lot of transient read errors to avoid the possibility of write lies destroying your media in "interesting" ways, etc. The handler was dropped; it literally could not be fixed. What was done instead was to require OS/8 to need 12K, in the way that was at that time known as the "TD8E problem" because it was the singular nuisance case of this problem of a system handler requiring [most of] 27600-27777 as well as the normal [most of] 07600-07777. Apparently the RX01 doubled the "problem" and eventually more cases appeared to more generalize the approach as additional too-feeble disk devices were hatched later. There are some lame conventions here: In essence, instead of making a new handler, they had to insert "fake-out" locations whether the code needed them or not, so that, totally irrelevantly, no one had to go back and tweak Basic or F4 to know what to do with the handler. These were kludged to discover explicit constants in key memory locations as a magic signature of the TD8E problem. As necessary, the code in [mostly] 27600-27777 could be moved out of the way to x7600-x7777 where x is 3-7 depending on what the highest actually available field of memory existed. Clearly, what was needed was some alternate means for any program to be able to discover the "problem" more generically, but it was never written, thus requiring no mods to either application-type system program. [This is really quite sloppy, isn't it!] In any case, the RX01 was then supported with extraneous constants matching their same location in the TD8E code. In some cases, this needlessly [albeit slightly] compromised the code, but they did achieve something that worked acceptably on a PDP-8 machine with 12K. At least this handler didn't lie!! However, there is a major design weakness: The basic sector mapping algorithm is based on division by simulation using repetitive subtraction. Each sector, in a call for several adjacently mapped sectors, has to be recalculated each and every time. Please note that OS/8 records are generally two PDP-8 pages long each. That means even a single-record call needs to have the sector calculated 4 times! Depending on the call, this could be anywhere from 2 through 64 times for the full range size of OS calls available. [The minimum read is one page; the maximum is 32 pages. Each page takes two sectors.] This just about makes it on an RX01 if executed on a PDP-8/e. On lesser processors, you quickly get into a throughput bottleneck: The method attempts to map the disk so that on each track you first access all of the odd sectors, 1, 3,5, etc. up to 25 followed by all of th even sectors 2,4,6, etc. up to 26. This is the best you can do and represents a two-way interleave, etc. [Please note that on PDP-11 systems, this is a subset of what is done; their formats often included a stagger factor, meaning that on each subsequent track you use a more advanced starting point, but you do traverse all of the sectors in the same relative way. But you only start at sector 1 on the first track. You could be starting at sector 5 on the next track, sector 9 on the one after that, etc. as you moved up say 4 sectors per track in the algorithm to take advantage of the ability to avoid rotational delay. When you seek to the next track, the motor has turned some number of degrees. To always start at sector one means a predictable additional rotational latency which can be avoided. PDP-8 handlers never addressed this, at least not OS/8 handlers, etc.] I never bothered to calculate it, but I suspect that on the upper tracks of an RX01, you might fall behind somewhat, but it comes at least close, meaning that for most of the disk, the two-way interleave doesn't add any undue latency issues, etc. But on a 4.0 MHz IM6100, this is entirely another story. For all but the first few sectors, you are constantly spending way too much time in the division routine and many sectors fly by. What should be done in two revolutions is now being done in 26 revolutions! [Note: It gets even worse on the still slower VT-78; the crawl is only partially the slow CPU speed; it is mostly that all that disk overhead we put up with on higher-performance disks is now painfully obvious where most of the access is running 13 times as slow as an RX01 usually goes, etc.] There is another hardware company that has to be mentioned here: Data Systems Design. Working with Western Dynex, that wonderful disk was mated to an elegant hardware solution of an interface to the Omnibus. The DSD-240 controller allowed for DMA transfers initiated by DMA of a command in memory to read or write [or format or diagnostically check, etc.]. Once initiated, the controller literally did everything, interrupting the PDP-8 when it was all done [or there was an error]. Writing the handlers for P?S/8 and OS/8 was a breeze with room to spare. Minimal systems could handle this device easier than DECtape [the original PDP-8 benchmark peripheral; if you cannot make it run on DECtape, it is worthless!] Intersil worked with two companies: DSD and a company called Pacific CyberMetrix or PCM. They produced essentially a kit form version of the Intercept called the PCM-12 [later PCM-12a] that was totally buss-compatible with the Intercept. Both machines supported plugging in 4K CMOS memory modules, some with localized battery-backup capability. Both [in different ways] used control panel memory to in fact implement a front panel, including a built-in RX-compatible boot switch. DSD produced the DSD-210, a compatible superset of the RX01 that could physically house up to three drives in a chassis, but the standard was two. Their buss could also support up to 4 drives. [Note: The way the later VT-78 supported 4 drives differs, but the basic support for two drives for the Omnibus, VT78 and DSD versions is compatible after a power-on reset.] Additionally, the DSD-210 can FORMAT RX01 media!! No longer need we toss magnetically-dinged RX media, etc. An interface to this device was developed for both the Omnibus and the Intercept/PCM-12 buss; I have all three items. While one could run in 12K OS/8 on those mediocre RX01 handlers, please note that the drop of support for the 8K handler led some Intercept purchasers to need that extra 4K unexpectedly. Regardless, the performance is still rather bad due to that division overhead, etc. The machine is just so much slower than an -8/e that it really drags in a frustrating way. [I know from personal experience!] At about this time, various people in DSD were asked by Thomas and the other Intersil people for the availability of an OS that DEC had no control over. Lennie Elekman knew the same DSD people I knew, and they put me in touch with Thomas himself. I explained that not one line of code of P?S/8 was in the control of DEC. However, in order to be viable, P?S/8 FOCAL required one to have a binary copy of FOCAL, 1969, as what is on the P?S/8 disk is a composite binary created by first loading into memory FOCAL, 1969, and then overlaying that with a rather large patch I personally created, and then saving all of that to specific blocks on the system disk. Next to this area are additional blocks containing more of my code that is conditionally swapped in later as well, but this is beyond the scope of the DEC licensing problem, etc. Thomas explained this was not a problem because he could also sell the paper-tape software to his customers, which included FOCAL, 1969. Thus, we could demonstrate that if you hooked up a paper-tape reader on a teletype [supported by Intercept] and used standard P?S/8 utilities to read in the binary paper tape, it produced P?S/8 binary files of FOCAL, 1969. And if you wanted to, you could load FOCAL, 1969 into memory from a standard P?S/8 command, gaining no access to any additional features, but it would work exactly as expected. And then if you loaded it into memory along with what I wrote, you could then start it at an alternate location that would write out the modified/patched version and overlays that amount to P?S/8 FOCAL literally. Thus, it could always be demonstrated that not one line of code was used illegally in any sense of the word, etc. as long as the user either opted out of FOCAL entirely or alternatively had also purchased a legal paper-tape copy of FOCAL, 1969, etc. Thus was forged a royalty agreement between me and Intersil. They had an unlimited license to a specific copy of P?S/8 as it existed then. It was not a buyout; I continued to own the product, and they were not automatically entitled to any additional updates, but we could negotiate beyond the fixed agreement for any work to follow [actually it never happened in fact]. Also, they wanted to not have it be known as P?S/8, so I documented every place they could patch the system so that each and every printout of P?S/8 could be replaced by the same-letter-count IFDOS [Intersil FLoppy Disk Operating System]. This is the software that they sold for the Intercept, and I was also free to make deals with PCM or DSD if they chose as well. P?S/8 performance on the Intercept is vastly better than OS/8 on the same hardware. [This is over and above any level-playing-field comparisons on more powerful machines such as "real" PDP-8s or even 6120s where the speed is that much higher, etc.] Here is the reason why: The OS/8 scheme for a handler is to attempt to squeeze the code to entirely fit into 07600-07777 with various locations reserved. This will allow the system to run on an 8K machine. In part, some people believe that the fact that there is also a boot record that is not the actual handler that takes control first is an advantage in terms of making this code smaller. I have proved this to actually not be the case; it just makes it easier to write the code due to the separation of the functions. P?S/8 does the same job to allow the system to boot up in 4K. However, there is no boot record; the image of the handler is also the bootup code. This leads to a lot of thinking in terms of code defined in as many as three loading origins: One where a bootup put it, another where that consequentially loads, and a third where it eventually has to occupy 07600 onward in the general case where all three addresses are pages different but perhaps not relatively different on the pages. [Note: Due to expedient design, the RX01 fails this latter part. However, since the RX01 has at least two pages of live code to run in for the OS/8 situation, plus that additonal boot record, they have no problem. P?S/8 has alternate ways of providing even more code space, so this is not actually a problem, just an alternate way to solve the overall problem. I must admit that if P?S/8 could have run in 4K, this might have been a problem, but....] Suffice to say, that it is historic fact that the lack of a separate boot record has never been a hindrance to an otherwise one-page handler. But other than in the RX01 case, has it ever been anything but an OS/8 "crutch" etc. [The simple reason is this: Internally, both systems use a scheme first invented by Richard Lary: When the handler is being used to process files passed to a system program, a list is created in memory locations starting past 07755. This is a hardware restriction of the PDP-8 because locations 07750-07755 are reserved for DF/RF, magtape, and TC01/08 DECtape operations of three-cycle data break. As such, you could never reliably use them. They can only be used as temporaries, etc. Thus, parameters to be passed to programs follow these locations when the handler is being called during a loaded system program, etc. The nature of these lists is system dependent. Current P?S/8 differs slightly from a future planned re-write, R-L handles them still differently, and OS/8 handles it still differently. But the overall concept is the same: the binary form of file info is passed in this area. As such, there can be no permanent code in these words from relative 0150 onward through 0177. Thus, in any handler image, once-only code can live there for bootup purposes. This has proven to be generically successful for all known hardware attached to a PDP-8 machine that "matters" that can otherwise get the rest of itself up in 4K.] Thus, RX01, just as eventually discovered in OS/8, cannot be realized in a one-page handler for P?S/8. However, P?S/8 rules are quite different in this regard: If a handler cannot fit into a single page, then a sophisticated memory management model applies: The challenge of writing a one-page handler in P?S/8 is slightly greater than all other things similar in OS/8 because there are slightly more reserved words in that all important 128 total. One of these is the Core Control Word. It includes support for concepts beyond that supported by OS/8, but I will merely point out what is relevant here. [Yes, 12 bits holds a lot of data!] 3 bits of the word contain the physical largest field of memory actually available on any basis as calculated when the system booted up. In systems where the handler is one page, this number is copied to another 3 bits which is the largest AVAILABLE field of memory the system will unconditionally release to any knowlegable program. However, if this is a larger system handler type system, this number is then at most one less field than the physical maximum. [There are also 3 bits that represent the current user setting from the CORE command with an arg; the CORE command without an arg displays all of this, doesn't set it. Clearly this value indicates field 0 and some user added optional memory up to that largest available as selected by the user; this works the same way as in OS/8 exceptt CORE 0 through CORE 7 is legal while in OS/8 you must give CORE 1 through CORE 7 only.] Thus, in an RX01-type system or similar, an entire field is off-limits [on a COMPLETE FIELD basis] to all programs to protect the handler. However, the actual handler space is x6000-x7777 in this situation. Locations x0000-x5777 MAY be available to a knowledgeable P?S/8-specific system program. All of the standard programs know this; most take advantage of that extra 3/4 of a field if available! [Note: Beyond the scope of this writing is the whole concept of the P?S/8 Logical Console Overlay, which occupies x0000-x5777 when enabled. Thus, this area may already be off-limits depending, etc. But it is an option on all hardware where 8K or more is available, and can be configured for an open-ended variety of alternate devices. Just a simple example: P?S/8 can be configured so that the console is not the standard 03/04 device as usual, but instead could use say an alternate serial interface to a different serial device, such as a PT08 on device 40/41 or whatever. This also includes alternate LPT support logically as well; configurations include the VT8E which isn't actually a terminal, but actually a DMA device housed in a VT05 chassis that is orders of magnitude faster than the "Real" VT05, etc.] Thus, the minimum practical P?S/8 configuration for the RX01 is where the handler has 07600-07777 and 16000-17777 to operate in on an 8K machine. For the level playing field that allows OS/8 to even work at all on an Intercept you need 12K, so the handler is in 07600-07777 and 26000-27777 for P?S/8 in 12K. Contrast that with OS/8 merely allowing a subset of 07600-07777 and 27600-27777. Additionally, that is the TOTAL of x6000-x7777; there are no reserved/kludged words there whatsoever. Beyond the 8 additional pages of code to write a far superior handler, there are also two pages reserved on the system device for boot-up considerations. This is where the code is that figures out exactly what is going on, including on-the-fly determining what the highest field available is, and perhaps complaining on the system teletype console that there isn't sufficient memory if you only have 4K, etc. Additionally, once this code is located where it finally lands, it is never again moved. Additionally, techniques are used to avoid having to reload it wherever possible. That is the province of these two "extra" pages to not ever compromise the 8 pages from having to be anything but handler code. Their only requirement is to be field-relocatable by the two pages of init code, not by themselves. Otherwise, they are loaded at fixed addresses, just like any other system handler in P?S/8 or OS/8 etc. In a handler now 9 times as large as a "regular" handler [instead of two times as big as in OS/8] you can really accomplish all sorts of things! I was able to solve all of the handler issues in about 4 total pages of code. The code in field 0 is merely an argument passer; most of the work is done in the 4 pages. [Note: P?S/8 also supports a hardware-specific optional binary loader. Some systems lack the hardware to support it, thus the switch to opt out of it is forced on in those cases. However, the RX01 is a device that DOES want to invoke a hardware-specific binary loader. As such, some of the space for the loader optimization code is also part of the 8 pages. However, all told, it all could easily fit in 4 pages if it had to. Please note that this is also the size it takes to implement the P?S/8 version of the RK05/RK8E handler, which writes to the nearest logical record that is one/half of the physical record of the RK05 sector. Among other things, there is a two-page buffer to accomplish this feat within this handler, and the rest is two more pages of code to make it all work. Thus, to date, no device challenge has ever needed more than half of this available space, etc. Perhaps I will drop the requirement of the two extra pages to relocate the code and count up the memory space, etc. But presently, it works as described here, etc.] [Note: The way the RK05 problem is handled predates solving the same problem in CPM/80 for very-large sector CP/M diskette device support; the logical CP/M record is as small as 1/8 of the physical record, etc.] [Note: This is how P?S/8 can handle RX50s in full 8-bit mode on a DECmate II/III/III+ once I get around to finishing that code; but the point is that the space is already carved out, etc.] The P?S/8 RX01 handler is magnificently more powerful than all other code I have ever seen on a PDP-8. [Note: For compatibility reasons, it does not use the stagger factor like the PDP-11; there is an ongoing need to imitate the layout used by OS/8. However, additional handlers can be written to handle more sophisticated device structure layout, etc. if desired.]. All of the folowing are automatically supported: 1) Real RX01 2) Real RX02 [Note: The media must be single-density; OS/8 has the same restriction.] 3) RX03 prototype never released to the public [DSD did the PDP-11 version however![ [Note: single density media; OS/8 has the same restriction. However, double-sided media is supported.] 4) DSD-210 with up to 4 units. 5) VT-78 with up to 4 units. 6) DECmate II with up to 4 units. [Note: Requires a special bootstrap program that is a superset of the RX01/RX02 boot that supports the RX78 board itself. This is because on the DECmate, the RX01/RX02 is not compatible because of the presence of the RX50. Thus, you have to have something aware of the alternate interface spec of the DECmate II with the option card. This handler does it if you run the boot code that enables it. The standard in-the-ROM bootup only supports booting to the first RX50 which resembles a strange geometry RX01/RX02. My more general bootstrap will support both RX50 pairs [in case you have a second one] and the RX78 board with either one or two pairs or RX01 or RX02, even a mixed set of pairs. Please note that it is likely that OS/8's standard handler could be modified to deal with this same problem which is minimal, but there are a lot of other problems associated with the fact that a DECmate is not quite a PDP-8, and OS/278 has mucked up too much that has to be undone first. P?S/8 totally supports the DECmate and all of its quirks in a generic manner; OS/8 needs a strong dose of the same medicine if it is ever to run again on DECmates properly; OS/278 kludges are quite horrible and a lot of OS/8 never made it to their cut, etc. It can be overcome, but it's a lot of work, especially if you are trying to get your own OS to work on this, and no one else seems to have stepped up who knows enough to write crafty PDP-8-type code as well as I do, etc.] 7) Can work in any system with either the PDP-8 convention or the demented and illogical OS/278 convention with regard to flag up or flag down status before handler entry. [Once OS/278 is obsoleted, this becomes unimportant; the OS/8 and original P?S/8 convention is the only way it makes sense; the OS/278 convention was invented by daft people who don't understand that, unlike WPS, OS/8 is inherently a no-interrupt system, etc. In the larger scheme, don't inflict irrelevant conventions on one system just because you need them on the other, etc. Thank You LaBonte and company!] 8) Has complete and elegant error-recovery that does not perform needless and time-consuming error recovery methods where irrelevant and worse. Consider this: If you get a read error that is due to CRC error, all you want to do is reissue a read command to try again. Due to lack of space to determine exactly what to do, all DEC code just does a total hardware reset, which includes a recalibrate to track 0 on drive 0 and 1, then seek on drive 0 to track 1, then read in track 1, sector 1 contents into the sector buffer, then possibly get an error for that read, and then, hopefully, actually try to reread the sector which also means you have to seek back to where you already were. On a marginal disk, merely re-reading could complete the task. But with all of the ridiculous overhead that literally takes many seconds to happen, all that overhead could cause a fatal case where the reread also repeats the error! Thus, not only is time wasted, reliability could also suffer, etc. 9) Correct handling of the vestigial bit of the RX03 found in all RX02. [Note: A revision of DEC's RX02 handler eventually fixed this, but some earlier code could be confused under some circumstances. I read what they did and imitated it; it made sense at the time. I admit that the RX03 issue was largely an in-house thing, etc.] 10) Correct handling of the RX02 present bit documentation and conventional wisdom bug. Due to bad documentation, a lot of otherwise OK PDP-8 code will not run on any form of write-protectable RX01 properly because of implementing a fairy-tale. This includes some user-modded RX01 and possibly 02 and definitely the DSD-210 that supports diskette level and drive level write protect as standard features. The short version is that a bit is documented as meaning "I am an RX02 in double-density mode" which is incorrect. It MIGHT mean "I am an RX02 in double-density IF I am an RX02 AND in fact the drive is ready AND in fact the media is double-density". Some sloppy mis-interpretation of this has occurred ruining the operation of some code written by trusting naive coders who believed the lie. The REAL definition is: "I am an RX02 in double-density mode IF I am an RX02 AND in fact the drive is ready AND in fact the media is double-density" OR "I am an RX01 and the drive is capable of being write protected AND the media is not present OR it it present and it is write protected by whatever method of write protection is actually supported on this DSD-210 or modified DEC RX01/02 drive". Additionally, please note that double-density media in any single-density drive is the same as drive not ready; there is no way to tell the difference. However, you can tell if the drive actually is an RX02/03 and not a single-density drive and not fall into the trap. [And once you know it's at least an RX02, you can deduce whether or not it is actually an RX03 and not get fooled by an actual RX02 hardware quirk which is not really that this is an RX03 at all.] The overall effect is to really know your hardware, and do the right thing by the circumstance presented for all cases. However, it takes almost a half-page of code to do all of these things over and above the lame "just recalibrate, wait and hope for the best" everybody else does [primarily due to lack of space]. I thank the authors of various RX diagnostics for some of the ideas used here, etc. And saving the best for last: 11) Performance-oriented handling of the hardware so it doesn't fall behind on slow CPU-based machines. This is a two-fold approach: To eliminate almost 90% of the problem, the infamous divide routine is accomplished by a shift/rotate algorithm reminiscent of the way EAE performs an actual divide. Look at the documentation of EAE simulators to get a notion of what is going on, etc. Part of it is an optimization for the specific algorithm for the specifics of this particular divide. Basically, you create the logical sector you want to access by mapping from the OS record orientation [different in P?S/8 from OS/8, a separate discussion, but you get to essentially the same place]. Divide that number, not by 26, but by 13. The remainder creates an even/odd bit that basically tells you if you are accessing the 1,3,5,7,9,11 etc. collections as opposed to the 2,4,6,8,10,12 etc. collection. [Note: On DECmates, this is the heart of how to do the RX50 as well, but the geometry is different, but the concept is identical.] The quotient/2 is the track. This creates the basic physical track and relative sector information you need to operate on, etc. The rest proceeds as would be in most OS/8 code. However, each operation is time-out checked, status-checked, and if an error, goes through the proper gauntlet of what to do to handle all error cases correctly and efficiently. Retries do the correct thing for all cases; never is excessive error recovery invoked, etc. If a drive is write-protected, the handler quickly returns the proper error, not three iterations of a total reset later, etc. Same for not ready situations, etc. The difference is quite dramatic for all practical cases. [The only reason to actual reset the drive is in that very rare occurrence of an actual cylinder seek error!] So far, this accomplishes most of what we want to do. But to otherwise imitate the OS/8 notion wouldn't work on the very slowest of CPUs where even the EAE-like code could be too slow to sustain a two-way interleave. Enter part two of the handler: Once the INITIAL caller sets that initial track and sector, the EAE algorithm is abandoned. In its place, a predictor/corrector algorithm is used instead. It turns out that it is a trivial [and few actual instructions!] non-iterative technique to calculate the next track and sector you need once you already know the previous one! Even a VT78 can do that! Thus, worst case, the first call perhaps overloads a very slow machine; It certainly has no effect on an Intercept or PCM-12/12a where the CPU is running at full rated speed. All subsequent sector calculations [remember for any particular system call, there could be as few as two calculations or as many as 64] are done by the fast method which takes about 8-10 inline instructions and no more. [You basically usually add 2, occasionally reset to sector 2, and occasionally bump the track number by using simple comparisons against "magic" constants; it's really rather trivial! But again, no space in any one else's handler for this additonal elegance, etc.] So even on a slow VT-78, the drive keeps up with the two-way interleave. Needless to say, using this specific P?S/8 handler on these slower machines is dramatically different, as the rotational latency drops back to the normal PDP-8-like behavior, instead of running 13 times as slow as normal!!! Thus, foolish users of Intercept who bought 12K and used OS/8 spent more money to wait around a real long and quite noticeable time for their choice. Users of IFDOS could get away with 8K and it ran rings around OS/8 with 12K. Of course, this also means that they couldn't assemble as large a program as in 12K, but for such a small machine, I doubt if this was a serious consideration. In OS/8, due to the ugly convention of essentially making off limits the last page of each and every field, PAL8 symbol table handling had to use [almost] whole fields for the symbol table. Note that due to the almost problem, this means that this requires 24K instead of 20K. [If you can use literally all of a field, then 4 fields gets you 4096 symbols, the maximum amount. But if you can only use most of a field, you wastefully need a partial fifth field.] Thus, in 12K you can get to nearly half of this in [most of] fields one and two while in 8K [but not on this machine!] you can only get to [nearly] a quarter of that. In P?S/8, if you have only 4K [not in this machine!], you get only a rather tiny symbol table. However, certain of the assembler's language features are modular and can be eliminated to make more space [meaningless if more memory is available]: 1) LINC mode dual assembly mode [Note: A user implementation of an almost acceptable subset of LINC mode handling was added unfortunately to an ancient copy of PAL8 before Richard Lary apologized and fixed it. Thus, as a PDP-8 assembler in general, it's a rather poor item. Too bad they didn't do it over on the much later version!] This is essentially a proper superset of PAL12 and the PDP-10 program known as DIAL10 [a hacked-up version of PAL10]. It handles all the standard anomalies, including user redefinition of standard symbols. Consider the following: In PDP-8 mode, the SKP instruction is always the same. However, in Linc mode, there are three different instructions depending on whether you are assembling for the classic LINC, the LINC-8, or the PDP-12. The default I used is for the PDP-12. If the user's source code redefines the SKP instruction while in LINC mode, when you switch back and forth, I allow the standard symbol to be overriden as required; yet the PDP-8 mode SKP is unaffected. Without this feature, you have to use ugly straight octal values or a local definition of SKP just before you use it; generally the convention is to put all definitions at the top of the source code, not in the middle; thus, my method preserves all normal intentions and conventions, etc. Unlike DIAL, this assembler supports [optionally] literals as is normally defined in PAL8 and PAL10. However, when in LINC mode, all arithmetic is done in one's complement mode, instead of the normal two's complement. Thus, you have to be careful when using literals called from both modes. Amazingly, it actually works! The reason is that the literal table is binary-driven, not source-code driven. If you happen to express the numbers differently in the different mode, but the resultant literal is the same binary value, the location is reused! A portion of the field 0 space is used to hold the swapped portions of the symbol tables, thus further still cramping a 4K assembly in terms of user symbol table size. But you get back all of the space if you drop the dual-mode assembly option, etc. 2) Literals and generated links are an option. Delete for more symbol table space. Due to their dubious worth, generated links have to also have an additional switch thrown. By default they are turned off even if literals are enabled. The reason for this is that links sometimes conceptually cannot work. Consider the following: FIELD 0 *200 CDF 10 TAD OFFPAGE *400 OFFPAGE,. The assembler is ignorant that you have changed the data field. The code WOULD work if the data field hadn't been changed. How do you expect the assembler to know if [either statically or dynamically] you changed the data field? Of course it can't know! Thus, generated links cannot work in all cases. [Admittedly all JMP and JMS situations might work, but only in simplistic cases, etc.] Thus, no one should be encouraged to use the sloppy link generation feature as probably they also don't have a firm grip on just exactly what a PDP-8 is and won't understand the rules about when links do and do not work, etc. Better to leave the "feature" off and learn to avoid using it. Thus, better coding technique will be learned to do it correctly only if it works, etc. If generated links are disabled, no space is saved, just that you get literals and errors on attempts to bypass proper addressibility in impossible situations. Links are always flagged and tallied in all cases; you are on your own as to whether or not they actually work. 3) Disabling the listing cosmetic improvement and cross-reference feature package gets you some more space if strictly in 4K. Enabling it gets you neater line-printer-orientation [titles, page numbers, etc.] and is a pre-requisite for the cross-reference option which takes even more space away in strictly 4K. If field 1 is available [in our Intercept model it always is]. Then you get 3/4 of a field for a symbol table. thus, OS/8 would get 992 symbols in 8K [but not on an Intercept!] while P?S/8 gets 768 symbols on a perfectly viable 8K configuration that OS/8 cannot even run in. If you get field 2 implemented, then OS/8 does get to almost 1984 symbol capability while P?S/8 gets to exactly 1792, only slightly less. This is the only level playing field unless you go for more optional memory. However, PAL8 may take as much as 20 times as long to assemble due to sloth in PAL8 in general and that 13 times latency working against you simultaneously. Note: There once was a "battle of the systems" of a sort within DEC between OS/8 and P?S/8: The hardware was a 32K PDP-8/e with TC08 DECtape and 8 drives and RK8E and 4 RK05. OS/8 was allowed to run on the RK05/RK8E. P?S/8 was allowed to run on the DECtapes. They chose a significently large OS/8 source program to assemble. It was placed onto an OS/8 DECtape and I converted the source code to P?S/8 file format using P?S/8 CONVRT [a bidirectional conversion program at the ASCII level between both systems, etc.]. Since I had 4 drives, I left mounted the OS/8 tape, converted the source files onto another tape, had a binary tape to write the binary out onto, and the system [and P?S PAL] were on the bootup DECtape. We agreed to make a fair test, so we assembled the same file on OS/8 on the first pair of RK8E/RK05s [they opted to ignore the second pair of drives]. One test was to time until both systems just started the line-printer on comparable output but did not cross-reference because PAL8 doesn't directly support cross-reference. Instead it makes a printable file that has to be post-processed by CREF and then OS/8 would lose by a major amount of embarassing time, perhaps an extra half hour. Thus, we limited the output to a non-cross-referenced test, and to be fair, the race ended when the line-printer STARTED to print, as long as in the end the result was essentially the same. I also pointed out that OS/8 would probably lose by about an additional 20% of the listing time if I enabled the P?S/8 console overlay with its lpt buffering, but left the overlay off and just stopped the clock when the listing started, etc. The results were that OS/8 beat P?S/8 by a factor of two! They were really scared because they knew just how much slower DECtape was than RK hardware! It should have been by a factor of at least 20! But it was not. [Note: When you tell your manager you need in-house hardware because otherwise it's REAL SLOW, having someone show that all that hardware was only twice as fast as far less hardware ruins your credibility. Doubling your productivity isn't worth an extra $25K in the '70's not to mention the in-house field service costs, etc.] The final blow was loading the program and exiting to the OS. In that test, P?S/8 on DECtape WAS FASTER IN EVERY CONCEIVABLE WAY than the RK05/RK8E OS/8 attempt. The larger the program, the worse OS/8 looked. OS/8 ABSLDR is a truly crappy program. It could be rewritten to be probably about 4 times as fast; it never was. As I said above, OS/8 was written to do "everything" but not to do any particular thing all that well. The Intercept was an interesting machine. Nothing about it was kludged and it went out of the way to be compatible, including total TTY compatibility, not just a simple interface. But ultimately, there is just so much you can do with an IM6100. But it didn't help that DEC's was far worse. cjl ps: Note that I included only the requisite amount of digressions as expected :-) . -- "In the future, OS/2 will be on everyone's desktop" Bill Gates, 1992 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 11 16:53:22 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 14:53:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: any Apollo fans out yonder? In-Reply-To: <48C74803.5070303@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <401750.53382.qm@web65503.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> could someone kindly give us a break down of their earlier models. I've just become the proud owner of a 3500/3550 mobo. 25mhz 68030, math chip or memory manageer right next to it (ok it's probably a coprocessor, barely looked at the thing). Big black piece of custom logic, otherwse all ttl and simple programmable logic. I have a picture if anyone wants to help me identify it (and what memory it needs, what ISA cards it can use, p/s, etc). --- On Wed, 9/10/08, Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > From: Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. > Subject: Re: any Apollo fans out yonder? > To: "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Wednesday, September 10, 2008, 12:07 AM > Jules Richardson wrote: > > Chris M wrote: > >> I know I posted this before. But there's been > so little feedback... > > > > Yeah, put me down :) > > > > Wonderful machines, even the later 4xx systems - just > don't bother > > with the 7xx ones as they're pure HP piggy-backing > on the Apollo name > > (nice in their own right, but incapable of running > Domain) > > > > I'm still keeping an eye out for a dn10k. I've > never used one, but a > > multi-CPU setup using such an oddball CPU really > appeals - I like > > weird stuff :-) > > I wouldn't mind a DN10K either.... physically large is > the only > drawback :-) (that and prob eats a good deal of power). > > I would love to find a DN3XX. Wouldn't mind a 3500 > either. > > We had these in the CIS program at college (first DN3XX > then > some DN3000 and DN3500, and one DN10K). The DN10K was > unique enough it rarely got used for anything except to > play > an awesome remake of the Star Wars arcade game (or so my > memory cells remember it as such (awesome)). > > Sadly... I don't own any Apollo gear. I do have a set > of OS tapes > around somewhere, although who knows if they are good > anymore. > (don't even know if I could find them anymore :-(). > > -- Curt > > -- Curt > > > > > cheers > > > > Jules > > > > > > > > From chrise at pobox.com Thu Sep 11 17:24:14 2008 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 17:24:14 -0500 Subject: substitute tube for DEC VR201? Message-ID: <20080911222414.GH5778@n0jcf.net> This is probably an old question but, well, I'm new to the list... Is there a known substitute CRT (both mfr and p/n) for the tube that is in a DEC VR201 monitor such as used with a DEC Rainbow? I have a VR201 that has the infamous mold on the inside of the tube's face. I am not up to peeling the face off and trying to fix it so am interested in just swapping out the tube. After going through all the docs I can find, I never did come up with a mfr or p/n for the tube itself so don't have a way to do a cross-reference. Of course if anyone has a non-moldy, b/w or amber VR201 that they want to get rid of... say the word. Chris -- Chris Elmquist mailto:chrise at pobox.com From ra9yer at yahoo.com Thu Sep 11 21:12:13 2008 From: ra9yer at yahoo.com (Alexander Sholohov) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 19:12:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: ECC on MFM drive Message-ID: <570670.25986.qm@web55002.mail.re4.yahoo.com> >> Yes. Indeed. I checked it again and it is the regular >> CRC circuit with unusual initial value and polynomial. > What are these values? They are not documented in the data sheet. The polynomial is 0x140a0445 (x32+x28+x26+x19+x17+x10+x6+x2+1), the initial value is 0x9dcd57c0. It is need to do following steps to check crc: 1 Init sift register by initial value 2 Process 0xf8 (MSB first) 3 Process 512 bytes of data 4 Process 4 bytes CRC. If everything is ok then value in the shift register will be zero. Alexander. From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Sep 12 08:09:15 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 08:09:15 -0500 Subject: FFS: Visual Terminal guides Message-ID: <51ea77730809120609h27a962f2lc4046e6938cefb98@mail.gmail.com> Free for shipping from 60074: Visual 630 User's Guide and Visual 600 Owner's Guide. Two spiral-bound books in very good shape. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Sep 12 08:14:59 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 08:14:59 -0500 Subject: any Apollo fans out yonder? In-Reply-To: <401750.53382.qm@web65503.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <401750.53382.qm@web65503.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48CA6B53.3090405@gmail.com> Chris M wrote: > could someone kindly give us a break down of their earlier models. How early? :) This one dates from 1982 and covers the really ancient 300-era stuff: http://www.1000bit.it/ad/bro/apollo/domainfamily.pdf And this one's 1986 and just goes into 3000 territory: http://www.1000bit.it/ad/bro/apollo/apollofamily.pdf > I've just become the proud owner of a 3500/3550 mobo. 25mhz 68030, math > chip or memory manageer right next to it (ok it's probably a coprocessor, I think that'll be a FPU (MC68881?) > I have a picture if anyone wants to help me identify it (and what > memory it needs, what ISA cards it can use, p/s, etc). I don't know of any docs online, but maybe Simon can check the archives at Bletchley for you - I think we might have some 3xxx-series docs, and possibly some sort of hardware config guide. There's an overview of the 3000 at: http://www.1000bit.it/ad/bro/apollo/apollo3000m.pdf ... I really don't recall if the 3500 was significantly different internally, or if it was just essentially a faster ('030 vs. '020) CPU. (if none of those direct links work, just go to 1000bit.com and do a search for Apollo under the brochures section - hats off to Mark Brennan for uploading them all) cheers Jules From fryers at gmail.com Fri Sep 12 09:13:54 2008 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 15:13:54 +0100 Subject: any Apollo fans out yonder? In-Reply-To: <48CA6B53.3090405@gmail.com> References: <401750.53382.qm@web65503.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <48CA6B53.3090405@gmail.com> Message-ID: G'Day, On 12/09/2008, Jules Richardson wrote: > Chris M wrote: [early models] There is an Apollo FAQ out there somewhere. I *should* have a copy but I don't seem to have with me at the moment. It seemed to go into the different hardware models and supported hardware in reasonable detail. > > I have a picture if anyone wants to help me identify it (and what > > memory it needs, what ISA cards it can use, p/s, etc). > > I don't know of any docs online, but maybe Simon can check the archives at > Bletchley for you - I think we might have some 3xxx-series docs, and > possibly some sort of hardware config guide. As far as I know, the 3500 was a 3000 with some minor improvements. Opening the box - nothing stood out as being different between them. Internally there could be a couple of minor differences. In terms of memory and hardware, unless you have a complete unit, things are a little difficult. Running from memory here. * Memory is custom Apollo memory. There is nothing on board. You need the memory cards. * The etherenet network card is a 3com model - exact model escapes me at the moment. You will probably need Apollo ROMs to use the card. * Graphics - custom frame buffers. Nothing PC will work. Although I stand to be corrected here. * Hard Disk Controller - was a Western Digital ESDI model. Model escapes me at the moment. I am not sure if there is a ROM issue - assuming you could find a controller. * Hard Disk. There was only a couple of ESDI hard disks that are supported. Good luck finding some. * SCSI. Yes. It was supported and you could hang a larger HDD off the Apollo if you had a SCSI controller. I have no idea about booting or the model of SCSI controller that worked. * Adaptec Tape Controller - I think this was a generic PC unit with nothing special ROM wise. Again, find the right model. * Power Supply. A standard PC power supply could be grafted in to replace the Apollo supply. This was in the days of AT power supplies. ATX is doable, but at more risk and with the assumption you know how to jerry-rig the ATX supply. * PC parallel and serial cards were reported to just work and the DomainOS/Aegis documentation gave instructions on how to set it up. In short. It is a M68K big endian system with a bus for a 80286/80386 little endian bus. Anything with smarts generally had custom ROMs but most of the cards themselves were also seen within PCs. [chomp] Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Fri Sep 12 09:50:58 2008 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 07:50:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The MicroChip is 50 today. In-Reply-To: <200809112257.05683.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <425708.49889.qm@web110504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Here is an article from Wired. http://www.wired.com/gadgets/miscellaneous/multimedia/2008/09/gallery_integrated_circuit?slide=1&slideView=5 From bear at typewritten.org Fri Sep 12 12:07:11 2008 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 10:07:11 -0700 Subject: any Apollo fans out yonder? In-Reply-To: References: <401750.53382.qm@web65503.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <48CA6B53.3090405@gmail.com> Message-ID: <44EE4164-CC30-4AAA-B952-74F2B64DEE75@typewritten.org> On Sep 12, 2008, at 7:13 AM, Simon Fryer wrote: > * The etherenet network card is a 3com model - exact model escapes me > at the moment. You will probably need Apollo ROMs to use the card. 3C505. It's pretty recognizable as it's full-length and has a blue PCB. The Apollo ROM is only needed to boot the machine diskless from ethernet, and to make remote dumps over the ethernet. > * Hard Disk Controller - was a Western Digital ESDI model. Model > escapes me at the moment. I am not sure if there is a ROM issue - > assuming you could find a controller. WD7000-ASE. The ASE has both ESDI and SCSI on the same card. The older SMS-OMTI controllers are ESDI only. I can't think of the models of these controllers offhand. > * SCSI. Yes. It was supported and you could hang a larger HDD off the > Apollo if you had a SCSI controller. I have no idea about booting or > the model of SCSI controller that worked. No booting from SCSI until the HP 400-series (or DN2500). > * Adaptec Tape Controller - I think this was a generic PC unit with > nothing special ROM wise. Again, find the right model. SCSI tape is supported on the WD7000. ok bear From legalize at xmission.com Fri Sep 12 13:13:58 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 12:13:58 -0600 Subject: FFS: Visual Terminal guides In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 12 Sep 2008 08:09:15 -0500. <51ea77730809120609h27a962f2lc4046e6938cefb98@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <51ea77730809120609h27a962f2lc4046e6938cefb98 at mail.gmail.com>, "Jason T" writes: > Free for shipping from 60074: Visual 630 User's Guide and Visual 600 > Owner's Guide. Two spiral-bound books in very good shape. I'll take those. Gee, what a surprise :-) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 12 13:24:03 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 11:24:03 -0700 Subject: ISO: NEC UPD72070 IC Message-ID: <48CA5153.6344.5E92317@cclist.sydex.com> Anyone have a spare one of these chips? This was used as the floppy controller on the AV Macs. Contact me off list if you've got one that you are willing to part with. Thanks! Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Sep 12 13:34:47 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 11:34:47 -0700 Subject: ISO: NEC UPD72070 IC Message-ID: <48CAB647.9020905@bitsavers.org> > Anyone have a spare one of these chips? This was used as the floppy > controller on the AV Macs. Very unusual part. It was the only externally developed floppy controller Apple ever used that supported GCR. Were you able to find data on it? I doubt you will be able to find one w/o unsoldering it from an AV board. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Sep 12 13:38:26 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 11:38:26 -0700 Subject: The MicroChip is 50 today. Message-ID: <48CAB722.9050000@bitsavers.org> The Texas Instruments integrated circuit is 50 today. I have no idea what a "MicroChip" is. "Microchip" is the company currently making PIC microprocessors. From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Fri Sep 12 13:47:23 2008 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 11:47:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The MicroChip is 50 today. In-Reply-To: <48CAB722.9050000@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <167464.34836.qm@web110504.mail.gq1.yahoo.com> Oh come on. Most non technical people are going to know this as a Microchip. If they put The Texas Instruments Integrated Circuit, most people wont know the significance. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microchip Microchip >From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation, search Microchip can also refer to: * Integrated circuit, a set of electronic components on a single unit. * Microchip Technology, a company that makes popular 8, 16 and 32-bit microcontroller lines. * Microchip implant (animal), a microchip implanted into animals. * Microchip implant (human), a microchip implanted into a human being. * Microchip (comics), a supporting character in The Punisher comics http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_circuit In electronics, an integrated circuit (also known as IC, microcircuit, microchip, silicon chip, or chip) is a miniaturized electronic circuit (consisting mainly of semiconductor devices, as well as passive components) that has been manufactured in the surface of a thin substrate of semiconductor material. Integrated circuits are used in almost all electronic equipment in use today and have revolutionized the world of electronics. --- On Fri, 9/12/08, Al Kossow wrote: > From: Al Kossow > Subject: Re: The MicroChip is 50 today. > To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org > Date: Friday, September 12, 2008, 2:38 PM > The Texas Instruments integrated circuit is 50 today. > > I have no idea what a "MicroChip" is. > "Microchip" is > the company currently making PIC microprocessors. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 12 14:21:20 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 12:21:20 -0700 Subject: ISO: NEC UPD72070 IC In-Reply-To: <48CAB647.9020905@bitsavers.org> References: <48CAB647.9020905@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <48CA5EC0.3358.61D94EB@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Sep 2008 at 11:34, Al Kossow wrote: > Very unusual part. It was the only externally developed floppy controller > Apple ever used that supported GCR. Were you able to find data on it? In Japanese, a datasheet along with an app note on NEC's website (http://www.necel.com). Easy enough to suss out in spite of the chicken scratches. Basically a uPD765 controller with a bunch of add- ons for the GCR stuff. > I doubt you will be able to find one w/o unsoldering it from an AV board. I suspect as much. Maybe there's someone out there with a junker... Cheers, Chuck From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Sep 12 14:33:03 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 14:33:03 -0500 Subject: FFS: Visual Terminal guides In-Reply-To: References: <51ea77730809120609h27a962f2lc4046e6938cefb98@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730809121233l23bd7453q25a51f1f141a6305@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 1:13 PM, Richard wrote: >> Free for shipping from 60074: Visual 630 User's Guide and Visual 600 >> Owner's Guide. Two spiral-bound books in very good shape. > > I'll take those. Gee, what a surprise :-) Sorry, already gone :( From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Sep 12 14:44:03 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 12:44:03 -0700 Subject: substitute tube for DEC VR201? In-Reply-To: <20080911222414.GH5778@n0jcf.net> References: <20080911222414.GH5778@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <48CAC683.4010201@brouhaha.com> Chris Elmquist wrote: > Of course if anyone has a non-moldy, b/w or amber VR201 that they want > to get rid of... say the word. Not that terribly many years ago, one couldn't walk down the aisles of electronic surplus stores without tripping over piles of VR201s. I guess those days are gone. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 12 13:18:33 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 19:18:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: substitute tube for DEC VR201? In-Reply-To: <20080911222414.GH5778@n0jcf.net> from "Chris Elmquist" at Sep 11, 8 05:24:14 pm Message-ID: > > This is probably an old question but, well, I'm new to the list... > > Is there a known substitute CRT (both mfr and p/n) for the tube that is > in a DEC VR201 monitor such as used with a DEC Rainbow? I've never had t oreplace the CRT in a VR201, but my experience is that small monochrome CRTs are pretty generic (there are 2 main families), and from what I can find about the intenrals of the VR201 it's a very standard monitor with normal-looking voltages on the CRT. The 2 families are basically : Narrow nexk with a 7 pin base (modified B7G -- modified in that the sealing tube is in the middle of the pins)) and a 12V filament Wider neck with an 8 pin base (B8H) and a 6.3V filament. You need one of the former type. Oh, and it's a 90 degree deflection angle. I've never seen a wider deflection angle in a computer terminal or monitor, but some UK portable TVs had 105 degree CRTs that are not suitable here. The other issue is the mouting. I can't rememebr if the VR201 CRT has fixing lugs on the tension band or not. Obviously you need one with the same mounting arrangements. Do not, whatever you do, try to mofify or remove that tension band! But my guess is that putting any CRT that will physically fit in will work. You may have to tweak the focus and G2 presets, that's all I would not ne at all suprised if the CRT from a DEC terminal worked... -tony From legalize at xmission.com Fri Sep 12 16:46:46 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 15:46:46 -0600 Subject: substitute tube for DEC VR201? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 12 Sep 2008 12:44:03 -0700. <48CAC683.4010201@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: In article <48CAC683.4010201 at brouhaha.com>, Eric Smith writes: > Chris Elmquist wrote: > > Of course if anyone has a non-moldy, b/w or amber VR201 that they want > > to get rid of... say the word. > > Not that terribly many years ago, one couldn't walk down the aisles of > electronic surplus stores without tripping over piles of VR201s. I > guess those days are gone. Depending on where you live, those days were never here in the first place. I would expect that only in Silicon Valley or on the 128 beltway would those days have ever been "here". -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Sep 12 16:52:34 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 14:52:34 -0700 Subject: substitute tube for DEC VR201? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48CAE4A2.1060708@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > Not that terribly many years ago, one couldn't walk down the aisles of > electronic surplus stores without tripping over piles of VR201s. I > guess those days are gone. Richard wrote: > Depending on where you live, those days were never here in the first > place. > > I would expect that only in Silicon Valley or on the 128 beltway would > those days have ever been "here". No, I used to routinely see piles of them in surplus outfits in Colorado, Kansas, Missouri, and Nebraska. They weren't huge piles, so I was exaggerating a bit, but they definitely weren't at all difficult to find. Eric From lynchaj at yahoo.com Thu Sep 11 16:40:04 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2008 17:40:04 -0400 Subject: Another disk imaging project Message-ID: <2B3AA69C4B8941EEA55EAA7D8867CC2F@andrewdesktop> Andrew Lynch wrote: > The intermediate disk signals could, *I believe* be imported into a PC > parallel port with "clock out" (typically 500 KHz for MFM DSDD, 250KHz for > FM, etc) being used for latch signal. I think they are also slow enough to > be practically captured by the PC parallel port. The PC could then sample > the parallel port at high rate (interrupt driven? DMA?) to read the signals > and create a disk image from the data. Again, the i8272 would not process > the signals so they would contain all the data the i8272 processes but will > not pass along such as header info, IDAM, CRC, true gap length, etc. The Disk2FDI project has already done this; give it a look to see if it applies to your situation. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org ) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ -----REPLY----- Jim, Thanks for the reply. I already have a Catweasel and programs to read hard sector disks so I really don't need another disk imaging utility. My intent was to offer to contribute if anyone were interested in the CCTALK community to try again on a disk imaging project. The modifications required to my Disk IO board *appear* to quite minor to get access to the raw disk signals so it seemed like a good opportunity. What I had in mind was a low cost, open project, open source, available hardware and software information made of common parts for everyone. Sort of in the spirit of the N8VEM project but with a different theme. However, I realize how these projects have ended on CCTALK in the past and I can see there is no interest now so I'll just let it pass. My hobby time is limited and I have choose carefully what I work on like everyone else. Thank goodness for the Catweasel! Andrew Lynch From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Fri Sep 12 17:42:36 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 22:42:36 +0000 Subject: substitute tube for DEC VR201? In-Reply-To: <48CAE4A2.1060708@brouhaha.com> References: <48CAE4A2.1060708@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20080912224236.GA3524@usap.gov> On Fri, Sep 12, 2008 at 02:52:34PM -0700, Eric Smith wrote: > I wrote: > > Not that terribly many years ago, one couldn't walk down the aisles of > > electronic surplus stores without tripping over piles of VR201s. I > > guess those days are gone. > > Richard wrote: > >Depending on where you live, those days were never here in the first > >place. > > > >I would expect that only in Silicon Valley or on the 128 beltway would > >those days have ever been "here". > > No, I used to routinely see piles of them in surplus outfits in > Colorado, Kansas, Missouri, and Nebraska. They weren't huge piles, so I > was exaggerating a bit, but they definitely weren't at all difficult to > find. At the right point in time, somewhere around 10 years ago, I think, I remember seeing medium-sized piles of DEC Professionals in various places in Ohio - hamfests, flea markets, university surplus, etc. IIRC, it was easy to pick up a Pro CPU, LK201 and VR201 for around $20 for months. I haven't seen any around the same sorts of places in over five years. Some time ago, I myself was looking for a replacement VR201 tube. I had been using one on an Amiga 2000 (after fitting a DA15 to the Amiga, wired for mono video and +12V to power the monitor). The Amiga was in a Bomac Tower case, and the VR201 was on top, until one day when I knocked it off and let the vacuum out of the tube. :-( After years of not finding a tube, I may have thrown out the enclosure, but I know I saved the board in case one of my other VR201s dies electronically. As for tripping over piles of anything, over the years I've seen, especially at the Dayton Hamfest, alternating piles of outgoing technology that hit the spot where tons of it were dumped on the market. One year, everyone seemed to be selling EGA monitors when VGA first took hold. Another year, several vendors were all selling Informer brand portable SNA terminals. Yet another year, you couldn't turn down an aisle at Dayton without tripping over piles of 386 motherboards. If you have the space, it's best to take advantage of these cycles when they happen, along a classic bathtub curve, eventually, due to scarcity, prices will inch back up. Witness PDP-8 prices over the last couple of decades... in 1981, I picked up a PDP-8/L for $35. Shortly before that, I know some list members who got PDP-8/Ss for about that. They went from $10K to under $100 in 10-15 years, then vanished from the easy-to-find places, and now are very difficult to find, even for many times their lowest historical prices. Being peripherals, VR201s probably won't undergo the same intensity of price-swing, but to a lesser magnitude, the effect is the same. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 12-Sep-2008 at 22:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -47.6 F (-44.2 C) Windchill -70.4 F (-56.9 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 6.1 kts Grid 54 Barometer 678.9 mb (10670 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From legalize at xmission.com Fri Sep 12 19:04:07 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 18:04:07 -0600 Subject: substitute tube for DEC VR201? In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 12 Sep 2008 22:42:36 -0000. <20080912224236.GA3524@usap.gov> Message-ID: In article <20080912224236.GA3524 at usap.gov>, Ethan Dicks writes: > As for tripping over piles of anything, over the years I've seen, > especially at the Dayton Hamfest, [...] As I've pointed out on the list before: it all depends on where you live. I've never seen or heard about a hamfest in Utah for the 20 years I've been living here and the 5+ years I've been collecting vintage computing gear. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Fri Sep 12 21:03:02 2008 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 20:03:02 -0600 Subject: PCjr Telnet Server Test Message-ID: <48CB1F56.8040903@brutman.com> It's running! Telnet to 97.86.233.68 to take a look and help me test it. You can use the standard Windows telnet program, Putty, Linux, or whatever you have handy. Around 10 users can be on at the same time. When you sign on (no password required) there will be a little menu to help you waste some time. Some things you can do are see who else is on the server, view the machine type, ROM BIOS date and DOS version, check the TCP/IP statistics to see how much traffic it is handling, etc. There are some upgrades since the last time I ran this test (in Dec 2007): - The TCP/IP stack is much better - I'm doing 'telnet' negotiation to figure out the terminal type, turn echoing on, etc - Crude line editing has been added Right now it is running on my PCjr using a Xircom PE3 10BT. I plan to leave it up as long as it runs, or three days, whichever comes first. It is a PCjr so if there is a momentary delay, don't panic - it's probably just doing disk I/O. Backspace is a little dodgy .. it really wants ASCII 8 and a lot of terminals and emulators do ASCII 127 instead. Try variations with the shift and control keys if it doesn't work. Thanks, Mike From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Sep 12 20:15:30 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 18:15:30 -0700 Subject: substitute tube for DEC VR201? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48CB1432.7050100@brouhaha.com> Richard wrote: > I've never seen or heard about a hamfest in Utah for the 20 years I've > been living here and the 5+ years I've been collecting vintage > computing gear. There certainly were some when I lived in Utah from 1984-1986. A quick search confirms that they've had some in more recent years: http://www.utahhamfest.org/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Sep 12 20:19:12 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 21:19:12 -0400 Subject: substitute tube for DEC VR201? In-Reply-To: <48CAE4A2.1060708@brouhaha.com> References: <48CAE4A2.1060708@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <33737922-4F82-4222-A1B0-5A4A156C25B3@neurotica.com> On Sep 12, 2008, at 5:52 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > I wrote: > > Not that terribly many years ago, one couldn't walk down the > aisles of > > electronic surplus stores without tripping over piles of VR201s. I > > guess those days are gone. > > Richard wrote: >> Depending on where you live, those days were never here in the first >> place. >> I would expect that only in Silicon Valley or on the 128 beltway >> would >> those days have ever been "here". > > No, I used to routinely see piles of them in surplus outfits in > Colorado, Kansas, Missouri, and Nebraska. They weren't huge piles, > so I was exaggerating a bit, but they definitely weren't at all > difficult to find. I think those days are LONG gone. I don't even see them on eBay very often. I sure wish I had picked up a few spares before they dried up. But of course I can say that about a great many things. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Fri Sep 12 23:26:59 2008 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko at juno.com) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 04:26:59 GMT Subject: PCjr Telnet Server Test Message-ID: <20080912.212659.355.0@webmail14.vgs.untd.com> Waaaaaaaay too cool . . . . -- "Michael B. Brutman" wrote: It's running! Telnet to 97.86.233.68 to take a look and help me test it. You can use the standard Windows telnet program, Putty, Linux, or whatever you have handy. Around 10 users can be on at the same time. When you sign on (no password required) there will be a little menu to help you waste some time. Some things you can do are see who else is on the server, view the machine type, ROM BIOS date and DOS version, check the TCP/IP statistics to see how much traffic it is handling, etc. There are some upgrades since the last time I ran this test (in Dec 2007): - The TCP/IP stack is much better - I'm doing 'telnet' negotiation to figure out the terminal type, turn echoing on, etc - Crude line editing has been added Right now it is running on my PCjr using a Xircom PE3 10BT. I plan to leave it up as long as it runs, or three days, whichever comes first. It is a PCjr so if there is a momentary delay, don't panic - it's probably just doing disk I/O. Backspace is a little dodgy .. it really wants ASCII 8 and a lot of terminals and emulators do ASCII 127 instead. Try variations with the shift and control keys if it doesn't work. Thanks, Mike ____________________________________________________________ Save hundreds on an Unsecured Loan - Click here. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3m3iTRdQUEvUXDmbZcm2uAgLT9ZoiSfXEqMi9VdLGAOPWKP0/ From derschjo at msu.edu Fri Sep 12 02:12:33 2008 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 00:12:33 -0700 Subject: Suggestions for cleaning hundreds of socketed chips? In-Reply-To: <48C8CD35.21477.F2D8C7F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <48C63133.6000201@msu.edu>, <48C82BC8.20720.CB6FC82@cclist.sydex.com>, <48C89605.4090104@msu.edu> <48C8CD35.21477.F2D8C7F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <48CA1661.3090305@msu.edu> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10 Sep 2008 at 20:52, Josh Dersch wrote: > > >> The aluminum sheet idea is great, except that on this board there's >> really no room to slide it in -- the chips are close enough together >> that I can barely get a small flat-blade screwdriver between them to pry >> (gently). >> > > You could also try making an extractor that's modeled after forceps-- > a short horizontal "L" section on each leg, just long enough to clear > the space between chips. Some of the pins on these old ceramic > packages are very fragile. > I may just do that. I'm finding more and more of these chips are leaving pins in the sockets no matter how carefully I extract them. I have two of these ND-812 machines, one of which is basically good for parts only (the power supply's been stripped and the front panel looks like it was left in the sun too long (the toggle switches are actually melted!) so I have a set of spare chips... I hope I can manage to get one working machine out of the two. > > >> And I reseated all the chips the other night (very carefully). Going >> through with a continuity tester on the first couple rows reveals that >> about every other chip has at least one pin that's not making good >> contact... this is going to be an ordeal :). The sockets themselves are >> going to be a problem -- they have gold contacts (I _think_) but the >> actual socket doesn't expose any accessible metal surface -- the pins go >> through a hole (that's just barely larger than a pin) in the plastic >> sheath and beneath that are the contacts. So getting contact cleaner in >> there is going to be an interesting problem. >> > > DeoxIT comes in an aerosol form, which should allow for easy > penetration. > > The concern here is that with abrasive methods, you're also rubbing > off the gold plating with the corrosion. That could mean some misery > down the road. > None of the chips in question have gold plated pins, so I can't make things too much worse there :). I'll get some DeoxIT and see how that goes. > None of this may help you if the sockets have degraded to the point > where the contacts have deteriorated and cannot make good contact > even after cleaning. I'm thinking that this may be the case. In which case I'm not sure how much it'd actually be worth replacing every socket... what a pain. :) Thanks for the suggestions... > But a chemical cleaner such as DeoxIT is > probably the best way to approach the problem of dirty/corroded > contacts. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > > > From derschjo at msu.edu Fri Sep 12 02:16:37 2008 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 00:16:37 -0700 Subject: Suggestions for cleaning hundreds of socketed chips? In-Reply-To: <200809111405.02020.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <48C63133.6000201@msu.edu> <200809111224.33584.pat@computer-refuge.org> <48C94A51.5090509@pacbell.net> <200809111405.02020.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <48CA1755.8060902@msu.edu> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > >> You mustn't have read the thread. >> >> This machine is wire wrapped. Replacing the sockets would be >> tantamount to building the boards from scratch. >> > > You're right that I haven't been following this thread... Still, my > comment stands. I don't think I'd consider it any more work to replace > WW ones and re-wrap them than if they were soldered onto a PCB > (especially if it has multiple layers), as long as you have some sort > of schematice/wire list. If you wanted to be creative, you could > probably cut the pins off the old sockets (or disassemble the sockets > to get the pins out), and figure out how to replace the sockets > (soldering new ones onto the old pins) without having to re-wrap > everything. > > Pat > Whew. I dunno if I want to tackle that just yet. I have a schematic set but no wire-list... not sure it'd really be worth the effort to completely rebuild the board... I don't even have any actual software to run on this thing (except for what I feel like toggling into the front panel) once I get it running :). But I'll keep it in mind. Thanks! Josh From hunt_x at hotmail.com Fri Sep 12 14:28:07 2008 From: hunt_x at hotmail.com (dave hunter) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 12:28:07 -0700 Subject: manual 4 A B&C Microsystems 1409 Prom Burner Message-ID: Hi mike I just found a post where you stated you had a manual for one of these beasts (B&C Microsystems 1409 Prom Burner) whats the chance i could get a copy I could shoot you cash via paypal asap thanks a million Dave Hunter _________________________________________________________________ From chrise at pobox.com Fri Sep 12 15:50:35 2008 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 15:50:35 -0500 Subject: substitute tube for DEC VR201? In-Reply-To: <48CAC683.4010201@brouhaha.com> References: <20080911222414.GH5778@n0jcf.net> <48CAC683.4010201@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20080912205035.GA17618@n0jcf.net> On Friday (09/12/2008 at 12:44PM -0700), Eric Smith wrote: > Chris Elmquist wrote: >> Of course if anyone has a non-moldy, b/w or amber VR201 that they want >> to get rid of... say the word. > > Not that terribly many years ago, one couldn't walk down the aisles of > electronic surplus stores without tripping over piles of VR201s. I guess > those days are gone. Not that terribly many years ago, we actually used to have electronic surplus stores around here :-) Those days are definitely gone. Chris -- Chris Elmquist mailto:chrise at pobox.com From chrise at pobox.com Fri Sep 12 19:41:07 2008 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 19:41:07 -0500 Subject: substitute tube for DEC VR201? In-Reply-To: <48CAE4A2.1060708@brouhaha.com> References: <48CAE4A2.1060708@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20080913004107.GH3617@n0jcf.net> On Friday (09/12/2008 at 02:52PM -0700), Eric Smith wrote: > > No, I used to routinely see piles of them in surplus outfits in Colorado, > Kansas, Missouri, and Nebraska. They weren't huge piles, so I was > exaggerating a bit, but they definitely weren't at all difficult to find. I'd venture that many of the surplus houses dumped them and many other kinds of CRTs while they could still do it for free. Now, it can cost as much as the CRT did new to dispose of them. Thanks to all who responded on the tube substitution question. I'll do some more research and see if I can identify a tube that will fit. I'm also toying with the idea of fitting an LCD into a VR201 cabinet and although it wouldn't be authentic, it would sure make the system more useable. I also have the option of using an RGBHV to SVGA converter along with the Rainbow color graphics card to get output on an LCD but that doesn't seem as attractive as the little VR201 with the "digital" logo at the bottom. Chris -- Chris Elmquist mailto:chrise at pobox.com From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Sep 12 17:58:14 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 18:58:14 -0400 Subject: ISO: NEC UPD72070 IC Message-ID: <0K73008IYUFVJWJ1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: ISO: NEC UPD72070 IC > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 12:21:20 -0700 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 12 Sep 2008 at 11:34, Al Kossow wrote: > >> Very unusual part. It was the only externally developed floppy controller >> Apple ever used that supported GCR. Were you able to find data on it? > >In Japanese, a datasheet along with an app note on NEC's website >(http://www.necel.com). Easy enough to suss out in spite of the >chicken scratches. Basically a uPD765 controller with a bunch of add- >ons for the GCR stuff. > >> I doubt you will be able to find one w/o unsoldering it from an AV board. > >I suspect as much. Maybe there's someone out there with a junker... > >Cheers, >Chuck It in the intel data book page 3-32 (1988 volume2 peripheral with black cover). I have that datasheet but the scanner is down. Allison > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Sep 13 02:15:26 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 03:15:26 -0400 Subject: PCjr Telnet Server Test In-Reply-To: <48CB1F56.8040903@brutman.com> References: <48CB1F56.8040903@brutman.com> Message-ID: <9DD8E277-E4D2-40EB-BB46-227BF3DD6983@neurotica.com> On Sep 12, 2008, at 10:03 PM, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > It's running! Telnet to 97.86.233.68 to take a look and help me > test it. You can use the standard Windows telnet program, Putty, > Linux, or whatever you have handy. > > Around 10 users can be on at the same time. When you sign on (no > password required) there will be a little menu to help you waste > some time. Some things you can do are see who else is on the > server, view the machine type, ROM BIOS date and DOS version, check > the TCP/IP statistics to see how much traffic it is handling, etc. > > There are some upgrades since the last time I ran this test (in Dec > 2007): > > - The TCP/IP stack is much better > - I'm doing 'telnet' negotiation to figure out the terminal type, > turn echoing on, etc > - Crude line editing has been added > > Right now it is running on my PCjr using a Xircom PE3 10BT. I plan > to leave it up as long as it runs, or three days, whichever comes > first. It is a PCjr so if there is a momentary delay, don't panic - > it's probably just doing disk I/O. I just tried it. Wow...that is just plain NEAT. Nice work, Mike! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sat Sep 13 02:36:00 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 04:36:00 -0300 Subject: PCjr Telnet Server Test References: <48CB1F56.8040903@brutman.com> Message-ID: <2a4e01c91573$a4fe2070$03fea8c0@portajara> > It's running! Telnet to 97.86.233.68 to take a look and help me test it. > You can use the standard Windows telnet program, Putty, Linux, or > whatever you have handy. W00W! Great thing Mike, congratulations! I'm in here in Brazil, so bad you aren't around for a page. Greetz Alexandre From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sat Sep 13 03:18:09 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 09:18:09 +0100 Subject: PCjr Telnet Server Test In-Reply-To: <48CB1F56.8040903@brutman.com> References: <48CB1F56.8040903@brutman.com> Message-ID: <48CB7741.8080007@gjcp.net> Michael B. Brutman wrote: > It's running! Telnet to 97.86.233.68 to take a look and help me test it. > You can use the standard Windows telnet program, Putty, Linux, or > whatever you have handy. It certainly is! Congratulations Mike, it was good fun chatting with you and Ethan last night. Now, if can I port it to a PDP11...? Gordon From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sat Sep 13 09:50:16 2008 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 08:50:16 -0600 Subject: PCjr Telnet Server Test In-Reply-To: <48CB1F56.8040903@brutman.com> References: <48CB1F56.8040903@brutman.com> Message-ID: <48CBD328.90104@brutman.com> Jeff, Dave, Alexandre, Gordon and G?ran (and the others who have telneted in.) Thanks! I saw some messages last night on my session, but they must have come in past my bed time. :-) The sysop page is just a small beep - in the future the code will figure out it is on a PCjr and do something more elaborate, like take advantage of the 3 voice sound or the speech adapter sidecar. Totally superfluous though. I haven't looked at the logs yet because they are on the machine being tested, but so far things look good. In the last twelve hours: Highest number of concurrent sessions: 4 Total sessions: 49 Tcp Pkts Sent 22317 Rcvd 19353 Retrans 34 Seq/Ack errs 364 Dropped 0 (due to lack of TCP buffers) Pkt stats: Incoming pkts: 19969 Dropped: 0 (due to lack of pkt buffers) Sent: 22390 The last time I did this test I didn't have telnet option negotiation and I wasn't echoing characters. This time around the number of packets is significantly higher, which is great for testing. The machine running the test can be seen here: http://brutman.com/PCjr_WD_small.jpg That's not the network card it is running on at the moment, but I've used it in previous tests. Right now it's running on a parallel port adapter which gives me about half the throughput of the big Western Digital card. (I don't like the big card hanging out exposed like that for an extended test.) The machine is fairly vanilla. 640K, Nec V20 CPU, and two parallel ports upgraded to bi-directional. The .EXE file for the code it is running is only around 70KB in size. Total RAM required is probably less than what I used on the IRC client, so it should run in a 256K machine. For a telnet BBS (which is what it will be one day) a 512K or 640K machine will be plenty. Nobody has alerted me to bad behavior yet and the machine is not on fire, so if you want to pay a visit again to see the packet counts go up, try another telnet client, or try to break it please feel free ... The address again is: 97.86.233.68 Mike From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 13 10:36:26 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 08:36:26 -0700 Subject: ISO: NEC UPD72070 IC In-Reply-To: <0K73008IYUFVJWJ1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0K73008IYUFVJWJ1@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <48CB7B8A.19397.A760204@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Sep 2008 at 18:58, Allison wrote: > It in the intel data book page 3-32 (1988 volume2 peripheral with black cover). > I have that datasheet but the scanner is down. You're not thinking of the 82078 are you? 64 pin, but very different chip, both in pinout and command set. If you've got a part number, I'll go digging for it, but AFAIK, the NEC part was a special for Apple--I've never seen it anywhere else. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Sep 13 11:08:48 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 10:08:48 -0600 Subject: PCjr Telnet Server Test In-Reply-To: <48CB7741.8080007@gjcp.net> References: <48CB1F56.8040903@brutman.com> <48CB7741.8080007@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <48CBE590.4070001@jetnet.ab.ca> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Michael B. Brutman wrote: >> It's running! Telnet to 97.86.233.68 to take a look and help me test >> it. You can use the standard Windows telnet program, Putty, Linux, or >> whatever you have handy. > > It certainly is! Congratulations Mike, it was good fun chatting with > you and Ethan last night. > > Now, if can I port it to a PDP11...? > > Gordon > Why not cram it into a PDP 8 ... I suspect you could have the worlds smallest sever (processing power that is). :) From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Sep 13 11:09:39 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 12:09:39 -0400 Subject: PCjr Telnet Server Test In-Reply-To: <48CBE590.4070001@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <48CB1F56.8040903@brutman.com> <48CB7741.8080007@gjcp.net> <48CBE590.4070001@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Sep 13, 2008, at 12:08 PM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >>> It's running! Telnet to 97.86.233.68 to take a look and help me >>> test it. You can use the standard Windows telnet program, Putty, >>> Linux, or whatever you have handy. >> >> It certainly is! Congratulations Mike, it was good fun chatting >> with you and Ethan last night. >> >> Now, if can I port it to a PDP11...? >> >> Gordon >> > Why not cram it into a PDP 8 ... I suspect you could have the > worlds smallest sever > (processing power that is). :) Nah, IP stacks have been done with FAR less than a PDP-8. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 13 11:38:34 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 09:38:34 -0700 Subject: PCjr Telnet Server Test In-Reply-To: References: <48CB1F56.8040903@brutman.com>, <48CBE590.4070001@jetnet.ab.ca>, Message-ID: <48CB8A1A.25986.AAEE70F@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Sep 2008 at 12:09, Dave McGuire wrote: > Nah, IP stacks have been done with FAR less than a PDP-8. > > -Dave No kidding. Right now, I'm working with an ENC28J60 ethernet controller attached via the SPI port on a PIC. I wonder if the setup consumes much more power than a couple of front panel lamps on a PDP- 8. But it's nice to see a Peanut being put to constructive use (I logged in last night!) Cheers, Chuck From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sat Sep 13 12:53:10 2008 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 11:53:10 -0600 Subject: PCjr Telnet Server Test In-Reply-To: References: <48CB1F56.8040903@brutman.com> <48CB7741.8080007@gjcp.net> <48CBE590.4070001@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <48CBFE06.9080102@brutman.com> My TCP/IP stack isn't very small either .. people have done TCP/IP in a much smaller space. This particular application takes 68KB on disk and 132KB total, including heap allocations. There is no UDP or DNS support compiled in, but I do have about 9KB of trace code compiled in. In the 132KB of space I'm able to support 10 online clients, each with a 2KB output buffer, a 512 byte receive buffer, and a few buffers (20 to 30KB) floating around for incoming and outgoing TCP transmissions. General features I do support: - ARP including caching a few entries - TCP sliding window, automatic retransmit, zero window probes, MSS negotiation, listen support, etc. - Enough UDP to implement DNS resolving and DHCP - A nice tracing mechanism that I can turn on and off via an environment variable or run-time variable, with selectable levels of tracing Big things I know I'm missing: - ICMP - it's on the todo list. - IP fragments. I don't take them, and I don't do them. Too expensive for a little machine, and pretty rarely needed on a TCP socket. So the memory requirements and function put it above uIP, but it's still small enough to cram into a low end 8088 class machine. Many people have run TCP/IP on much less hardware. I haven't looked at the uIP code, but the fact that Adam can run in on a C64 is enough to amaze me .. It's not as full featured, but it's there! Mike From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Sep 13 12:09:26 2008 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 10:09:26 -0700 Subject: Anyone have some spare external DSSI cables? (VAX 4000 to HSD10) Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90809131009h9e97c55x755ce8240cc084f1@mail.gmail.com> I have an HDS10 in a BA350 I'd like to try attaching to a VAX 4000 but I'm missing an appropriate external interconnect cable. It appears that what I need is a BC29R (p/n 17-03855-xx) or equivalent cable with a PS connector on the VAX end and a MR connector on the HSD10 end. Anyone have some extra of these that they don't need and are willing to part with them for a reasonable amount plus postage in the US? -Glen http://h71000.www7.hp.com/wizard/cable-guide.html BC29R DSSI Cable for HSD. Description: DSSI cable to connect the VAX/DEC 4000 system to the HSD05 or HSD30 DSSI to SCSI adapter/controller. Specification: Connectors: One 50-way MR (micro-ribbon) right-angled connector for the HSD, and one 50-way PS (pin socket or tab) right-angled connector for the system end. Ordering Information: BC29R-06, -09, -16, -30, 45, -60. p/n 17-03855-04, -05, -06, -07, -08, -09. From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sat Sep 13 14:25:38 2008 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 13:25:38 -0600 Subject: PCjr Telnet Server Test In-Reply-To: <48CB1F56.8040903@brutman.com> References: <48CB1F56.8040903@brutman.com> Message-ID: <48CC13B2.1000700@brutman.com> Testing is done - something croaked! (grrrrr) Mike From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sat Sep 13 15:49:56 2008 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 14:49:56 -0600 Subject: PCjr Telnet Server Test In-Reply-To: <48CC13B2.1000700@brutman.com> References: <48CB1F56.8040903@brutman.com> <48CC13B2.1000700@brutman.com> Message-ID: <48CC2774.7000806@brutman.com> Sorry for the spam, but I'm back running again. The address is still the same: 97.86.233.68 . It will be up and running until I get sick of it, so please keep checking back and trying to break it. Here is what I think happened on this first crash: - New incoming connection send a SYN packet - PCjr sends SYN & ACK response - No response so SYN & ACK gets retransmited - Other side resends their SYN packet - PCjr incorrectly responds with an ACK to let the other side know what the correct sequence number is supposed to be. (The connection is not established yet.) The storage used to send the ACK packet is on the stack, and there is a BIG comment saying 'make sure this never gets queued anywhere, or you will have a dangling pointer into the stack'. I don't think it was queued anywhere (that path is good), but I did corrupt the stack because my code saw a socket in SYN_RECVD sending a new outgoing packet, and it went and politely filled in the TCP options in that packet. Which had no space to hold them, and thus corrupted the stack .. That's what I think at least. I put a little debug code to catch it if it happens again, and I'll try to simulate the same thing happening later on. It took about 72 connections and 40000 packets in and out to break it. Time to start again. :-( Thanks, Mike From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 13 14:52:24 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 20:52:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: substitute tube for DEC VR201? In-Reply-To: <20080913004107.GH3617@n0jcf.net> from "Chris Elmquist" at Sep 12, 8 07:41:07 pm Message-ID: > I'm also toying with the idea of fitting an LCD into a VR201 cabinet > and although it wouldn't be authentic, it would sure make the system > more useable. I am curious as to why an LCD in the VR201 cabinet is more useable than the CRT. I can't see much difference in useability (but would much rather have to repair a CRT_based monitor than an LCD-based one). -tony From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sat Sep 13 15:46:49 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 17:46:49 -0300 Subject: PCjr Telnet Server Test References: <48CB1F56.8040903@brutman.com>, <48CBE590.4070001@jetnet.ab.ca>, <48CB8A1A.25986.AAEE70F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <2cad01c915e2$7d593400$03fea8c0@portajara> > No kidding. Right now, I'm working with an ENC28J60 ethernet > controller attached via the SPI port on a PIC. I wonder if the setup > consumes much more power than a couple of front panel lamps on a PDP- > 8. Maybe a pic has more computing power than a PDP-8? :o) From dm561 at torfree.net Sat Sep 13 16:41:35 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 17:41:35 -0400 Subject: manual 4 A B&C Microsystems 1409 Prom Burner Message-ID: <01C915C8.047CCCA0@MSE_D03> Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2008 12:28:07 -0700 From: dave hunter Subject: manual 4 A B&C Microsystems 1409 Prom Burner >Hi mike I just found a post where you stated you had a manual >for one of these beasts (B&C Microsystems 1409 Prom Burner) >whats the chance i could get a copy I could shoot you cash via >paypal asap thanks a million >Dave Hunter --------- I replied off-list; let me know if you got it and if it's what you need. m From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sat Sep 13 18:55:11 2008 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 00:55:11 +0100 Subject: PCjr Telnet Server Test In-Reply-To: <48CC2774.7000806@brutman.com> References: <48CB1F56.8040903@brutman.com> <48CC13B2.1000700@brutman.com> <48CC2774.7000806@brutman.com> Message-ID: <48CC52DF.9080803@philpem.me.uk> Michael B. Brutman wrote: > Sorry for the spam, but I'm back running again. The address is still > the same: 97.86.233.68 . It will be up and running until I get sick of > it, so please keep checking back and trying to break it. Seems to work from here insofar as I can connect to it. Haven't tried msg'ing or anything like that, but it seems to be behaving. It's pretty neat seeing a PCjr running a BBS... especially when said PCjr is running a TCP/IP stack as well. I did come up with one "nice to have" -- is there any chance of adding a prompt character/string to it, say "pcjr> " or similar? Just that I thought it had fallen over after the MOTD until I typed "help" and it actually *worked*... Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From curt at atarimuseum.com Sat Sep 13 19:07:15 2008 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 20:07:15 -0400 Subject: PCjr Telnet Server Test In-Reply-To: <48CC52DF.9080803@philpem.me.uk> References: <48CB1F56.8040903@brutman.com> <48CC13B2.1000700@brutman.com> <48CC2774.7000806@brutman.com> <48CC52DF.9080803@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <48CC55B3.4020404@atarimuseum.com> Michael -- Great work, I just telnetted from my Atari ST with an Ethernec interface attached, so one old piece of technology connecting to another :-) Curt Philip Pemberton wrote: > Michael B. Brutman wrote: >> Sorry for the spam, but I'm back running again. The address is still >> the same: 97.86.233.68 . It will be up and running until I get sick >> of it, so please keep checking back and trying to break it. > > Seems to work from here insofar as I can connect to it. Haven't tried > msg'ing or anything like that, but it seems to be behaving. It's > pretty neat seeing a PCjr running a BBS... especially when said PCjr > is running a TCP/IP stack as well. > > I did come up with one "nice to have" -- is there any chance of adding > a prompt character/string to it, say "pcjr> " or similar? Just that I > thought it had fallen over after the MOTD until I typed "help" and > it actually *worked*... > > Thanks, > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.21/1669 - Release Date: 9/12/2008 2:18 PM > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Sep 14 00:20:14 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 01:20:14 -0400 Subject: PCjr Telnet Server Test In-Reply-To: <2cad01c915e2$7d593400$03fea8c0@portajara> References: <48CB1F56.8040903@brutman.com>, <48CBE590.4070001@jetnet.ab.ca>, <48CB8A1A.25986.AAEE70F@cclist.sydex.com> <2cad01c915e2$7d593400$03fea8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <026E9375-EB2E-41C8-8A0B-C31E21451C2B@neurotica.com> On Sep 13, 2008, at 4:46 PM, Alexandre Souza wrote: >> No kidding. Right now, I'm working with an ENC28J60 ethernet >> controller attached via the SPI port on a PIC. I wonder if the >> setup consumes much more power than a couple of front panel lamps >> on a PDP- >> 8. > > Maybe a pic has more computing power than a PDP-8? :o) Depends on the clock rate. For most PICs, probably not. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Sep 14 00:22:57 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 01:22:57 -0400 Subject: PCjr Telnet Server Test In-Reply-To: <48CB8A1A.25986.AAEE70F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <48CB1F56.8040903@brutman.com>, <48CBE590.4070001@jetnet.ab.ca>, <48CB8A1A.25986.AAEE70F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <43797749-F622-456D-93BA-8753B0B32CD5@neurotica.com> On Sep 13, 2008, at 12:38 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Nah, IP stacks have been done with FAR less than a PDP-8. >> > No kidding. Right now, I'm working with an ENC28J60 ethernet > controller attached via the SPI port on a PIC. I wonder if the setup > consumes much more power than a couple of front panel lamps on a PDP- > 8. > > But it's nice to see a Peanut being put to constructive use (I logged > in last night!) Most excellent. I too have used the ENC28J60; it's a really nice chip. Mine is running on an ARM chip, a Philips LPC2138. I wrote an interface layer between it and uIP running under FreeRTOS. Just as I was getting ready to send the code to the uIP maintainers, someone else contributed theirs. Blargh. But it was fun to get working. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Sun Sep 14 01:18:51 2008 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 08:18:51 +0200 Subject: any Apollo fans out yonder? In-Reply-To: <51ea77730809101334o35eca59dnb86689bb4bc2c799@mail.gmail.com> References: <475613.43223.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <48C6702B.5040407@gmail.com> <48C74803.5070303@hawkmountain.net> <51ea77730809092115j53c87334yd2064640a1aceacf@mail.gmail.com> <091020081736.20066.48C805A50006684500004E6222230680329B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> <51ea77730809101334o35eca59dnb86689bb4bc2c799@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080914081851.71873fea.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Wed, 10 Sep 2008 15:34:25 -0500 "Jason T" wrote: > I'm guessing removing the vid card would force the Apollo to show > console on the serial port? The DN3[05]00 machines have two switches at the back. A reset switch and a service mode switch. If the later is in the upper position the machine will go to serial console. IIRC. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 14 02:00:51 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 00:00:51 -0700 Subject: PCjr Telnet Server Test In-Reply-To: <026E9375-EB2E-41C8-8A0B-C31E21451C2B@neurotica.com> References: <48CB1F56.8040903@brutman.com>, <2cad01c915e2$7d593400$03fea8c0@portajara>, <026E9375-EB2E-41C8-8A0B-C31E21451C2B@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <48CC5433.18054.DC4537D@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Sep 2008 at 1:20, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Maybe a pic has more computing power than a PDP-8? :o) > > Depends on the clock rate. For most PICs, probably not. The PIC in question is an 18F4550, pretty fast, not much RAM, Harvard architecture, so an apples-to-apples comparison is a little difficult. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Sep 14 02:37:58 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 01:37:58 -0600 Subject: PCjr Telnet Server Test In-Reply-To: <48CC5433.18054.DC4537D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <48CB1F56.8040903@brutman.com>, <2cad01c915e2$7d593400$03fea8c0@portajara>, <026E9375-EB2E-41C8-8A0B-C31E21451C2B@neurotica.com> <48CC5433.18054.DC4537D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <48CCBF56.5000300@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 14 Sep 2008 at 1:20, Dave McGuire wrote: > > >>> Maybe a pic has more computing power than a PDP-8? :o) >>> >> Depends on the clock rate. For most PICs, probably not. >> > > The PIC in question is an 18F4550, pretty fast, not much RAM, Harvard > architecture, so an apples-to-apples comparison is a little > difficult. > > Cheers, > Chuck > I would say not ... PDP 8 -- 128 words of ram, 4K of program space. 1.5 us for shifts, tests and jumps 3.0 us for memory access to/from ACC. From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sun Sep 14 08:56:16 2008 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 07:56:16 -0600 Subject: PCjr Telnet Server Test In-Reply-To: <48CC55B3.4020404@atarimuseum.com> References: <48CB1F56.8040903@brutman.com> <48CC13B2.1000700@brutman.com> <48CC2774.7000806@brutman.com> <48CC52DF.9080803@philpem.me.uk> <48CC55B3.4020404@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <48CD1800.3050404@brutman.com> Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > Michael -- > > Great work, I just telnetted from my Atari ST with an Ethernec interface > attached, so one old piece of technology connecting to another :-) > > Now that seems appropriate. I'm going to have to look for the odd-ball terminal type to see if I can figure out which one was yours. :-) I know of one person two also used the telnet on an AS/400 (iSeries). He had to deal with linemode, but it worked. Mike From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Sep 14 10:06:10 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 10:06:10 -0500 Subject: PCjr Telnet Server Test In-Reply-To: <48CC52DF.9080803@philpem.me.uk> References: <48CB1F56.8040903@brutman.com> <48CC13B2.1000700@brutman.com> <48CC2774.7000806@brutman.com> <48CC52DF.9080803@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <48CD2862.30102@gmail.com> Philip Pemberton wrote: > I did come up with one "nice to have" -- is there any chance of adding a > prompt character/string to it, say "pcjr> " or similar? Just that I > thought it had fallen over after the MOTD until I typed "help" and > it actually *worked*... Yeah, that 'bit' me, too. Re. testing, is there any way to write something that runs on remote systems and just hammers the network stack / telnet interface on the PCjr, or does nothing like that exist already? It seems like so many TCP/IP stacks have been written for various machines over the years that it surprises me nobody's come up with a solution for automating some of the testing. cheers Jules From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Sep 14 10:09:43 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 11:09:43 -0400 Subject: PCjr Telnet Server Test In-Reply-To: <48CCBF56.5000300@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <48CB1F56.8040903@brutman.com>, <2cad01c915e2$7d593400$03fea8c0@portajara>, <026E9375-EB2E-41C8-8A0B-C31E21451C2B@neurotica.com> <48CC5433.18054.DC4537D@cclist.sydex.com> <48CCBF56.5000300@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <5748C4CF-4445-4DE1-BC88-C47DD0971A94@neurotica.com> On Sep 14, 2008, at 3:37 AM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >>>> Maybe a pic has more computing power than a PDP-8? :o) >>>> >>> Depends on the clock rate. For most PICs, probably not. >>> >> >> The PIC in question is an 18F4550, pretty fast, not much RAM, >> Harvard architecture, so an apples-to-apples comparison is a >> little difficult. >> >> Cheers, >> Chuck >> > I would say not ... PDP 8 -- 128 words of ram, 4K of program space. Where are you getting "128 words of RAM"?? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun Sep 14 10:17:23 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 16:17:23 +0100 Subject: PCjr Telnet Server Test In-Reply-To: <026E9375-EB2E-41C8-8A0B-C31E21451C2B@neurotica.com> References: <48CB1F56.8040903@brutman.com>, <48CBE590.4070001@jetnet.ab.ca>, <48CB8A1A.25986.AAEE70F@cclist.sydex.com> <2cad01c915e2$7d593400$03fea8c0@portajara> <026E9375-EB2E-41C8-8A0B-C31E21451C2B@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <48CD2B03.3030109@gjcp.net> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Sep 13, 2008, at 4:46 PM, Alexandre Souza wrote: >>> No kidding. Right now, I'm working with an ENC28J60 ethernet >>> controller attached via the SPI port on a PIC. I wonder if the setup >>> consumes much more power than a couple of front panel lamps on a PDP- >>> 8. >> >> Maybe a pic has more computing power than a PDP-8? :o) > > Depends on the clock rate. For most PICs, probably not. Uhm. Clocked at 8MHz, about 4 clocks per instruction, you're already firing instructions through at four times the speed. Also, you've got registers, rather than just AC and (maybe) MQ. I could probably *emulate* a PDP8 on a PIC. I'd prefer to do it on an AVR though. Gordon From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sun Sep 14 11:25:04 2008 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 10:25:04 -0600 Subject: PCjr Telnet Server Test In-Reply-To: <48CD2862.30102@gmail.com> References: <48CB1F56.8040903@brutman.com> <48CC13B2.1000700@brutman.com> <48CC2774.7000806@brutman.com> <48CC52DF.9080803@philpem.me.uk> <48CD2862.30102@gmail.com> Message-ID: <48CD3AE0.6050403@brutman.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > Re. testing, is there any way to write something that runs on remote > systems and just hammers the network stack / telnet interface on the > PCjr, or does nothing like that exist already? It seems like so many > TCP/IP stacks have been written for various machines over the years that > it surprises me nobody's come up with a solution for automating some of > the testing. > > cheers > > Jules > > Testing plug: the PCjr is still running at 97.86.233.68 Testing exercises what the test writer expects to break. I've tested quite extensively already, but every once in a while I need to get outside help to try to break things in new and exciting ways. Between the cctalk mailing list and the vintage-computer.com web forum, I've got quite a bit of variety. And just like a good testing effort should, I was caught by something I didn't expect and and plan for .. trouble with retransmits and sequence numbers while negotiating a connection. I've paid so much attention to the common case (established connections) that it seems to work pretty well. The three way handshake code gets executed far less and I have less ability to break it (being on a local network), so it makes sense that the first serious bug was found there. Btw, everybody must have testing fatigue .. We're only up to about 50 connections since I fixed the suspected bug and restarted things. Feel free to telnet back in again with whatever you've got handy ... The address again is: 97.86.233.68 I'm seeing lots of what look like Windows clients and Xterms (Linux or Putty probably). Raw connections like Netcat or Putty in raw mode should work too, although you might see double echoing. Oddball telnet clients and machines would be appreciated too. Mike From curt at atarimuseum.com Sun Sep 14 10:44:00 2008 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 11:44:00 -0400 Subject: PCjr Telnet Server Test In-Reply-To: <48CD1800.3050404@brutman.com> References: <48CB1F56.8040903@brutman.com> <48CC13B2.1000700@brutman.com> <48CC2774.7000806@brutman.com> <48CC52DF.9080803@philpem.me.uk> <48CC55B3.4020404@atarimuseum.com> <48CD1800.3050404@brutman.com> Message-ID: <48CD3140.5050803@atarimuseum.com> I ran it in ANSI mode, so it shouldn't (I hope) come up as anything weird or oddball. Curt Michael B. Brutman wrote: > Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: >> Michael -- >> >> Great work, I just telnetted from my Atari ST with an Ethernec >> interface attached, so one old piece of technology connecting to >> another :-) >> >> > > Now that seems appropriate. I'm going to have to look for the > odd-ball terminal type to see if I can figure out which one was yours. > :-) > > I know of one person two also used the telnet on an AS/400 (iSeries). > He had to deal with linemode, but it worked. > > > Mike > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com > Version: 8.0.169 / Virus Database: 270.6.21/1670 - Release Date: 9/13/2008 12:50 PM > > From fu3.org at gmail.com Sun Sep 14 10:52:51 2008 From: fu3.org at gmail.com (ch) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 17:52:51 +0200 Subject: PCjr Telnet Server Test In-Reply-To: <48CD3AE0.6050403@brutman.com> References: <48CB1F56.8040903@brutman.com> <48CC13B2.1000700@brutman.com> <48CC2774.7000806@brutman.com> <48CC52DF.9080803@philpem.me.uk> <48CD2862.30102@gmail.com> <48CD3AE0.6050403@brutman.com> Message-ID: <310f50ab0809140852v2c9321c9sdf6ad7490c3b480a@mail.gmail.com> 2008/9/14 Michael B. Brutman : > > I'm seeing lots of what look like Windows clients and Xterms (Linux or Putty > probably). Raw connections like Netcat or Putty in raw mode should work > too, although you might see double echoing. Oddball telnet clients and > machines would be appreciated too. > > Works fine with x3270 too ;) From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Sep 14 10:56:05 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 10:56:05 -0500 Subject: PCjr Telnet Server Test In-Reply-To: <48CD3AE0.6050403@brutman.com> References: <48CB1F56.8040903@brutman.com> <48CC13B2.1000700@brutman.com> <48CC2774.7000806@brutman.com> <48CC52DF.9080803@philpem.me.uk> <48CD2862.30102@gmail.com> <48CD3AE0.6050403@brutman.com> Message-ID: <48CD3415.6030707@gmail.com> Michael B. Brutman wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: >> Re. testing, is there any way to write something that runs on remote >> systems and just hammers the network stack / telnet interface on the >> PCjr, or does nothing like that exist already? It seems like so many >> TCP/IP stacks have been written for various machines over the years >> that it surprises me nobody's come up with a solution for automating >> some of the testing. > > Testing exercises what the test writer expects to break. I've tested > quite extensively already, but every once in a while I need to get > outside help to try to break things in new and exciting ways. Sure - I suppose I've just surprised that there isn't already something in the public domain that can't flood a system, generate bogus/corrupt packets etc. in order to test a stack out; it still wouldn't catch all bugs of course, but might give a faster response to most problems than asking the list. > Btw, everybody must have testing fatigue .. We're only up to about 50 > connections since I fixed the suspected bug and restarted things. Feel > free to telnet back in again with whatever you've got handy ... I'm recovering from Saturday night... :) Anyway, on the telnet interface side it'd be nice if the system kept track of nicks and didn't allow a nick that was already in use, and if messages could be sent to a nick rather than a session number (similarly if received messages showed the nick that sent them, rather than the session number). But that's all "UI stuff" rather than fundamental issues with the server itself... I did try breaking it by sending huge amounts of data or odd control sequences and so far it seems to be holding up well. > I'm seeing lots of what look like Windows clients and Xterms (Linux or > Putty probably). Yeah, telnetting from a GUI shell in linux gives me a type of 'xterm', but telnetting outside of X just shows a type of 'linux'. Oh, what is the deal with backspace/delete? Backspace does nothing, whilst delete echos some form of control code to the screen. ctrl-H seems to work as the erase character, though (and genuinely does erase from the string that gets sent to the server upon ). Is the PCjr doing something non-standard with the handling of such keys, or is it just that other telnet servers generally hack such keypress processing to accommodate modern clients? cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Sep 14 11:08:41 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 11:08:41 -0500 Subject: PCjr Telnet Server Test In-Reply-To: <48CD3AE0.6050403@brutman.com> References: <48CB1F56.8040903@brutman.com> <48CC13B2.1000700@brutman.com> <48CC2774.7000806@brutman.com> <48CC52DF.9080803@philpem.me.uk> <48CD2862.30102@gmail.com> <48CD3AE0.6050403@brutman.com> Message-ID: <48CD3709.8060301@gmail.com> Michael B. Brutman wrote: > Feel free to telnet back in again with whatever you've got handy ... Oh, the number parsing for the message command is a little goofy: msg -1 hello Session 4294967295 not found msg g testing Msg sent (invalid IDs should possibly be reported as such, rather than 'session not found', and the way it parses an alpha as a numeric is interesting!) cheers J. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Sep 14 11:24:26 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 10:24:26 -0600 Subject: PCjr Telnet Server Test In-Reply-To: <5748C4CF-4445-4DE1-BC88-C47DD0971A94@neurotica.com> References: <48CB1F56.8040903@brutman.com>, <2cad01c915e2$7d593400$03fea8c0@portajara>, <026E9375-EB2E-41C8-8A0B-C31E21451C2B@neurotica.com> <48CC5433.18054.DC4537D@cclist.sydex.com> <48CCBF56.5000300@jetnet.ab.ca> <5748C4CF-4445-4DE1-BC88-C47DD0971A94@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <48CD3ABA.80006@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Sep 14, 2008, at 3:37 AM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >>>>> Maybe a pic has more computing power than a PDP-8? :o) >>>>> >>>> Depends on the clock rate. For most PICs, probably not. >>>> >>> >>> The PIC in question is an 18F4550, pretty fast, not much RAM, >>> Harvard architecture, so an apples-to-apples comparison is a little >>> difficult. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> Chuck >>> >> I would say not ... PDP 8 -- 128 words of ram, 4K of program space. > > Where are you getting "128 words of RAM"?? > > -Dave > I was thinking of page Zero memory- I could be off on my decimal conversion. 200(8) words of ram. Most of the rest of memory is for code. This is a basic 4K machine. From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sun Sep 14 12:49:42 2008 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 11:49:42 -0600 Subject: PCjr Telnet Server Test In-Reply-To: <48CD3415.6030707@gmail.com> References: <48CB1F56.8040903@brutman.com> <48CC13B2.1000700@brutman.com> <48CC2774.7000806@brutman.com> <48CC52DF.9080803@philpem.me.uk> <48CD2862.30102@gmail.com> <48CD3AE0.6050403@brutman.com> <48CD3415.6030707@gmail.com> Message-ID: <48CD4EB6.2050501@brutman.com> The user interface is a bit crappy. I did the bare minimum to make it functional to drive the TCP/IP stack. If I ever do the full blown Telnet BBS this will *not* be the end user interface. I hate string parsing in C .. it is awful. And parameter checking is even more of a pain. The next time around I'll probably fix some glaring deficiencies but I got the itch to let it loose on Friday night and just decided to let it go as is. Next time around: - There will be 'prompt' letting you know it is alive - Nicks will be unique - you won't be able to duplicate one in use - I'll throw more TCP stats up there, like dropped packets per connection, remote window size, bytes xfered, etc. - I'm going to use the LPFK to visually show me how many connections are active so I don't need the monitor turned on and I don't have to be at a session to look. (Goofy, I know) - Telnet autologin support? - A quote server, a memory viewer, a better chat mechanism, and some other things to help people waste time and drive traffic. :-) The backspace is an interesting problem. I've interpreting ASCII 8 as a backspace, which seems pretty normal to me. But a lot of clients are sending ASCII 127. Telnet doesn't actually specify backspace as required function. I need to do more research to see what the correct behavior is. Mike From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Sep 14 12:17:30 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 12:17:30 -0500 Subject: PCjr Telnet Server Test In-Reply-To: <48CD4EB6.2050501@brutman.com> References: <48CB1F56.8040903@brutman.com> <48CC13B2.1000700@brutman.com> <48CC2774.7000806@brutman.com> <48CC52DF.9080803@philpem.me.uk> <48CD2862.30102@gmail.com> <48CD3AE0.6050403@brutman.com> <48CD3415.6030707@gmail.com> <48CD4EB6.2050501@brutman.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730809141017u4f8ddcfeo1293e9c4f5bcf2c0@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 12:49 PM, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > > The user interface is a bit crappy. I did the bare minimum to make it > functional to drive the TCP/IP stack. If I ever do the full blown Telnet > BBS this will *not* be the end user interface. I hate string parsing in C > .. it is awful. And parameter checking is even more of a pain. First of all, way cool project. I'm in now with a couple different clients (Windows and PuTTY in raw mode, showing the echo you mentioned.) Is anyone unable to route to this IP? I'm on Comcast cable and in fine, but a local friend with AT&T DSL shows no route to that host, which is a bit odd. You're on Charter (cable, I think?) so it's not like you're some offshore spamhaus. Then again it could just be him. Weird. -j From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 14 12:25:30 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 10:25:30 -0700 Subject: PCjr Telnet Server Test In-Reply-To: <48CD4EB6.2050501@brutman.com> References: <48CB1F56.8040903@brutman.com>, <48CD3415.6030707@gmail.com>, <48CD4EB6.2050501@brutman.com> Message-ID: <48CCE69A.28968.4128F0@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Sep 2008 at 11:49, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > The backspace is an interesting problem. I've interpreting ASCII 8 as a > backspace, which seems pretty normal to me. But a lot of clients are > sending ASCII 127. Telnet doesn't actually specify backspace as > required function. I need to do more research to see what the correct > behavior is. Depends on the vintage of the implementation. BS originally was just that--move the current printing/display position one back, erasing nothing. 127 (Rubout/ASCII DEL) was used as a delete character because it punched all the holes in a tape and was ignored on printing as a fill character. (Many of us can still remember editing paper tape using rubouts to delete previously punched characters). The non-erasing interpretation of BS came as a surprise to me when writing early text CRT terminal firmware. To form various international characters, the client could send out the character for an ogonek, then a BS, then, say, an A. The firmware had to display the ogonek, move the cursor back a space, then combine the ogonek with the A and display the ogonek-inflected-A. The reverse sequence (A-BS-ogonek) also had to be honored. The purpose of this was to be compatible with earlier printing terminals. WikiP has the following on BS: "The ambiguity surrounding Backspace comes from mismatches between the intent of the human or software transmitting the Backspace and the interpretation by the software receiving it. If the transmitter expects Backspace to erase the previous character and the receiver expects Delete to be used to erase the previous character, many receivers will echo the Backspace as "^H", just as they would echo any other uninterpreted control character. (A similar mismatch in the other direction may yield Delete displayed as "^?".)" So, it's your posion. I've used telnet servers that insist on RO to erase characters and print ^H when backspace is received. OTOH, the current Linux telnet server treats BS and DEL identically--and if I were in your shoes, I'd do the same. Cheers, Chuck From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun Sep 14 14:20:11 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 20:20:11 +0100 Subject: substitute tube for DEC VR201? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48CD63EB.7060607@gjcp.net> Tony Duell wrote: >> I'm also toying with the idea of fitting an LCD into a VR201 cabinet >> and although it wouldn't be authentic, it would sure make the system >> more useable. > > I am curious as to why an LCD in the VR201 cabinet is more useable than > the CRT. I can't see much difference in useability (but would much rather > have to repair a CRT_based monitor than an LCD-based one). Well if the CRT is gubbed, it's not going to be terribly usable, is it? Gordon From oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org Sun Sep 14 17:17:07 2008 From: oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 16:17:07 -0600 Subject: PCjr Telnet Server Test In-Reply-To: <200809141700.m8EH05Jt076534@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200809141700.m8EH05Jt076534@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <48CD8D63.8020007@rogerwilco.org> Sun Sep 14 12:17:30 CDT 2008, Jason T said: > First of all, way cool project. I'm in now with a couple different > clients (Windows and PuTTY in raw mode, showing the echo you > mentioned.) Is anyone unable to route to this IP? I'm on Comcast > cable and in fine, but a local friend with AT&T DSL shows no route to > that host, which is a bit odd. You're on Charter (cable, I think?) so > it's not like you're some offshore spamhaus. Then again it could > just be him. Weird. I'm using Qwest DSL, and have no problems reaching The Mighty Peanut. We tried a couple of WinXP telnet and PuTTY sessions. I noticed that the WinXP telnet client was listed as "ANSI" and the PuTTY client was listed as "XTERM". I had to use Shift-Backspace or CTRL-H to backup on PuTTY. The Win client worked fine with the backspace key. I don't have any way to really pound the little peanut, but I did just sit on my RETURN key for a while, and let the peanut try to send the HELP message as fast as my RETURN key would repeat. Seemed to hold up just fine. Well done, Mike! - Jared From spc at conman.org Sun Sep 14 21:49:49 2008 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 22:49:49 -0400 Subject: PCjr Telnet Server Test In-Reply-To: <48CD3415.6030707@gmail.com> References: <48CB1F56.8040903@brutman.com> <48CC13B2.1000700@brutman.com> <48CC2774.7000806@brutman.com> <48CC52DF.9080803@philpem.me.uk> <48CD2862.30102@gmail.com> <48CD3AE0.6050403@brutman.com> <48CD3415.6030707@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080915024948.GA16187@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Jules Richardson once stated: > > Sure - I suppose I've just surprised that there isn't already something in > the public domain that can't flood a system, generate bogus/corrupt packets > etc. in order to test a stack out; it still wouldn't catch all bugs of > course, but might give a faster response to most problems than asking the > list. Have you tried lookint at nmap? > Yeah, telnetting from a GUI shell in linux gives me a type of 'xterm', but > telnetting outside of X just shows a type of 'linux'. > > Oh, what is the deal with backspace/delete? Backspace does nothing, whilst > delete echos some form of control code to the screen. ctrl-H seems to work > as the erase character, though (and genuinely does erase from the string > that gets sent to the server upon ). Is the PCjr doing something > non-standard with the handling of such keys, or is it just that other > telnet servers generally hack such keypress processing to accommodate > modern clients? Well, the Linux kernel expects the erase key to be ASCII 127, and has the backspace key generate said character. The default xterm expects the erase key to be ASCII 8 and doesn't know how to handle ASCII 127 that the backspace key under Linux sends. And it drives me nuts! -spc (And there are enough programs under Linux that will respond the same to both, but there are also plenty of exceptions ... ) From evan at snarc.net Sun Sep 14 22:00:24 2008 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 23:00:24 -0400 Subject: The Great Trailer Incident -- ECLIPSED !!! Message-ID: <011301c916df$34a16400$f750f945@evan> Many of you may recall The Great Trailer Incident (tm) of 2004, in which cctalk owner Jay West ventured from St. Louis to Boston for VCF East 2.0, only to encounter a flat tire, incompetent police dispatchers, poison ivy, and -- according to rumor on the VCF show floow -- arrest, fire, crashing, computer tragedy, possibly death, and/or an encounter with a minicomputer-hating wild boar. Okay, so the part about the minicomputer-hating wild board MIGHT not be true, but personally I think that's what really happened. Jay's version of the story is here: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2004-July/045851.html I'm simultaneously proud (and fucking ASTOUNDED) to share the news tonight that Vince Briel, this weekend at VCF East 5.0 in New Jersey, ** BEAT ** Jay's adventure!!!!! Vince's weekend began ordinary enough. He packed his car and left Cleveland on Friday morning for the 8-hour drive to central New Jersey. He arrived in the late afternoon / early evening. Just like the other exhibitors who arrived Friday for the Sat./Sun. event, Vince unpacked his car and began setting up his table. Then he came to me after an hour and said, "Evan, there is a problem." He looked extremely distraught. I know Vince pretty well, so I figured either there was a real problem, or (more likely) there was a punchline to follow, perhaps at my expense. Vince was scheduled to run a replica-building workshop this morning. What he revealed Friday night was that he forgot to pack the replica kits. No boggie. Just cancel the workshop, and people will understand that it was a simple mistake, I told him .... but Vince would have none of that .... in the dark and in the pouring rain and clearly tired, Vince decided to DRIVE BACK TO CLEVELAND TO GET THEM. I and others tried to talk him out of it, with no luck. Vince got home to Cleveland, slept for just 2 hours, then made sure he had the kits this time and DROVE BACK TO NEW JERSEY -- for a total of 24 hours of highway driving in about a 35-hour span -- much of it in the dark and/or rain, and much of it on increasingly little sleep! Quite frankly, I wouldn't want to have been the cars near him, especially on the second trip to Jersey yesterday morning. His workshop this morning was a huge success. Then a few hours later, after the show ended, he (of course) drove home (again) to Cleveland. In total that's 32 hours of highway driving, much of it in the dark and/or rain, much on little/no sleep, spending hundreds of dollars on gas, all a three-day span, just because he's a dedicated, hard-core, loyal, and (apparently) clinically insane VCF supporter. THE GREAT TRAILER INCIDENT HAS BEEN BEAT. Vince is god. - Evan From evan at snarc.net Sun Sep 14 22:08:24 2008 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 23:08:24 -0400 Subject: The Great Trailer Incident -- ECLIPSED !!! In-Reply-To: <011301c916df$34a16400$f750f945@evan> Message-ID: <011801c916e0$523f8630$f750f945@evan> BTW, the rest of VCF East 5.0 this weekend was awesome. Very strong exhibits and a very strong lecture schedule this year. Ya'll missed the talk by Bill Mauchly, in which he brought along some of his father's hardware. Another of our speakers, Bell Labs vet Claude Kagan, brough Pres Eckert's engineering notebook. So we quite an ENIAC celebration this weekend! David Gesswein's PDP-8 exhibit won best-of-show, with Mike Loewen's SAGE exhibit runner-up. All weekend there was a full exhibit hall and the VCF corresponded with the grand opening of our computer museum (previously existing only in a limited "demo" mode). Major fun this weekend! I'm really looking forward to the pictures, and we also plan to post some exhibit hall video on YouTube. - Evan -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Evan Koblentz Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2008 11:00 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: The Great Trailer Incident -- ECLIPSED !!! Many of you may recall The Great Trailer Incident (tm) of 2004, in which cctalk owner Jay West ventured from St. Louis to Boston for VCF East 2.0, only to encounter a flat tire, incompetent police dispatchers, poison ivy, and -- according to rumor on the VCF show floow -- arrest, fire, crashing, computer tragedy, possibly death, and/or an encounter with a minicomputer-hating wild boar. Okay, so the part about the minicomputer-hating wild board MIGHT not be true, but personally I think that's what really happened. Jay's version of the story is here: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2004-July/045851.html I'm simultaneously proud (and fucking ASTOUNDED) to share the news tonight that Vince Briel, this weekend at VCF East 5.0 in New Jersey, ** BEAT ** Jay's adventure!!!!! Vince's weekend began ordinary enough. He packed his car and left Cleveland on Friday morning for the 8-hour drive to central New Jersey. He arrived in the late afternoon / early evening. Just like the other exhibitors who arrived Friday for the Sat./Sun. event, Vince unpacked his car and began setting up his table. Then he came to me after an hour and said, "Evan, there is a problem." He looked extremely distraught. I know Vince pretty well, so I figured either there was a real problem, or (more likely) there was a punchline to follow, perhaps at my expense. Vince was scheduled to run a replica-building workshop this morning. What he revealed Friday night was that he forgot to pack the replica kits. No boggie. Just cancel the workshop, and people will understand that it was a simple mistake, I told him .... but Vince would have none of that .... in the dark and in the pouring rain and clearly tired, Vince decided to DRIVE BACK TO CLEVELAND TO GET THEM. I and others tried to talk him out of it, with no luck. Vince got home to Cleveland, slept for just 2 hours, then made sure he had the kits this time and DROVE BACK TO NEW JERSEY -- for a total of 24 hours of highway driving in about a 35-hour span -- much of it in the dark and/or rain, and much of it on increasingly little sleep! Quite frankly, I wouldn't want to have been the cars near him, especially on the second trip to Jersey yesterday morning. His workshop this morning was a huge success. Then a few hours later, after the show ended, he (of course) drove home (again) to Cleveland. In total that's 32 hours of highway driving, much of it in the dark and/or rain, much on little/no sleep, spending hundreds of dollars on gas, all a three-day span, just because he's a dedicated, hard-core, loyal, and (apparently) clinically insane VCF supporter. THE GREAT TRAILER INCIDENT HAS BEEN BEAT. Vince is god. - Evan From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Sep 13 02:28:58 2008 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 03:28:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PCjr Telnet Server Test In-Reply-To: <9DD8E277-E4D2-40EB-BB46-227BF3DD6983@neurotica.com> References: <48CB1F56.8040903@brutman.com> <9DD8E277-E4D2-40EB-BB46-227BF3DD6983@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200809130731.DAA04274@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> It's running! Telnet to 97.86.233.68 to take a look [...] > I just tried it. Wow...that is just plain NEAT. Nice work, Mike! Agreed. This is really cool stuff. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Sep 13 13:00:43 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 14:00:43 -0400 Subject: ISO: NEC UPD72070 IC Message-ID: <0K7500BNXBBXHXI3@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: ISO: NEC UPD72070 IC > From: "Chuck Guzis" > Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 08:36:26 -0700 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 12 Sep 2008 at 18:58, Allison wrote: > >> It in the intel data book page 3-32 (1988 volume2 peripheral with black cover). >> I have that datasheet but the scanner is down. > >You're not thinking of the 82078 are you? 64 pin, but very different >chip, both in pinout and command set. If you've got a part number, >I'll go digging for it, but AFAIK, the NEC part was a special for >Apple--I've never seen it anywhere else. > >Cheers, >Chuck Oops, intel 82070 a reall oddball as well but not the same part. Allison From bob.latterman at gmail.com Sat Sep 13 15:33:56 2008 From: bob.latterman at gmail.com (Bob Latterman) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 13:33:56 -0700 Subject: HK ET-1000 Trainer Message-ID: Are you still looking for a ET-1000 trainer? I have one in very good condition. I was about to put it on ebay. I sold my last one for about $45.00. Let me know if you are interested. -Bob From chrise at pobox.com Sat Sep 13 15:59:15 2008 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 15:59:15 -0500 Subject: substitute tube for DEC VR201? In-Reply-To: References: <20080913004107.GH3617@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20080913205915.GC25862@n0jcf.net> On Saturday (09/13/2008 at 08:52PM +0100), Tony Duell wrote: > > I'm also toying with the idea of fitting an LCD into a VR201 cabinet > > and although it wouldn't be authentic, it would sure make the system > > more useable. > > I am curious as to why an LCD in the VR201 cabinet is more useable than > the CRT. I can't see much difference in useability (but would much rather > have to repair a CRT_based monitor than an LCD-based one). Well, if I can't find a tube to replace it... then I'd consider an LCD. I also have a serious heatload problem in the "museum" here and the more things I add that make heat, the more uncomfortable it gets sitting around using the stuff. Repair of the unit after the LCD was swapped in would be by replacing the entire LCD subsystem. But-- I'm betting that if the LCD survives the first few hours of life, it will then probably outlive me and it becomes the next guy's problem to repair it :-) I think what I really need to do is just come to terms with looking through the fog. The monitor works fine otherwise-- nice and bright and no burn-in so the whole issue is strictly cosmetic. Chris -- Chris Elmquist mailto:chrise at pobox.com From derschjo at msu.edu Sun Sep 14 04:28:24 2008 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 02:28:24 -0700 Subject: Otrona Attache power supply woes... Message-ID: <48CCD938.10300@msu.edu> Picked up an Otrona Attache (w/8086 option) in a trade today. Very cool little CP/M machine and I really want to get it running (hopefully it'll be easier than the ND-812 fiasco which I've shelved until I have a ton of time to do some major work on the sockets...) The Attache's power supply is non-functional. I turn it on and get absolutely nothing out of it, not even the power supply fan is spinning. I've verified the power switch is working and that the little 220/110V "card" is flipped the correct way. Anyone have power supply schematics (I have logic board schematics)? Anyone seen similar problems with this machine? Thanks! Josh From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Sep 14 11:12:43 2008 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 12:12:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PCjr Telnet Server Test In-Reply-To: <48CD3415.6030707@gmail.com> References: <48CB1F56.8040903@brutman.com> <48CC13B2.1000700@brutman.com> <48CC2774.7000806@brutman.com> <48CC52DF.9080803@philpem.me.uk> <48CD2862.30102@gmail.com> <48CD3AE0.6050403@brutman.com> <48CD3415.6030707@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200809141630.MAA22282@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Oh, what is the deal with backspace/delete? [...] Is the PCjr doing > something non-standard with the handling of such keys, or is it just > that other telnet servers generally hack such keypress processing to > accommodate modern clients? It's using character-at-a-time mode, which causes telnet clients to send each keystroke to the server directly, thus making line editing a server responsibility. Normal telnet connections either use a full-featured line editor on the server side or use line-at-a-time mode, in which case the client machine does the line editing. Here's what I see when I open a connection with options negotiation turned on in telnet: telnet> open 97.86.233.68 Trying 97.86.233.68... Connected to 97-86-233-68.dhcp.roch.mn.charter.com. Escape character is '^]'. SENT DO SUPPRESS GO AHEAD SENT WILL TERMINAL TYPE SENT WILL NAWS SENT WILL TSPEED SENT WILL LFLOW SENT WILL LINEMODE SENT WILL NEW-ENVIRON SENT DO STATUS SENT WILL XDISPLOC RCVD WILL SUPPRESS GO AHEAD RCVD WILL ECHO SENT DO ECHO RCVD DO TERMINAL TYPE Welcome to Mike's TCP/IP testing server Please enter a nickname to use: RCVD IAC SB TERMINAL-TYPE SEND SENT IAC SB TERMINAL-TYPE IS "MTERM" This indicates that the telnet server implementation is at least slightly broken; it should be sending responses of some sort, even if negative ones (DONT or WONT, as appropriate), for the other attempted negotiations (NAWS, TSPEED, etc). /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From rick at rickmurphy.net Sun Sep 14 11:49:41 2008 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 12:49:41 -0400 Subject: PCjr Telnet Server Test In-Reply-To: <48CD3415.6030707@gmail.com> References: <48CB1F56.8040903@brutman.com> <48CC13B2.1000700@brutman.com> <48CC2774.7000806@brutman.com> <48CC52DF.9080803@philpem.me.uk> <48CD2862.30102@gmail.com> <48CD3AE0.6050403@brutman.com> <48CD3415.6030707@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200809141649.m8EGnfP8023939@mail.rickmurphy.net> At 11:56 AM 9/14/2008, Jules Richardson wrote: >Michael B. Brutman wrote: >>Jules Richardson wrote: >>>Re. testing, is there any way to write something that runs on remote >>>systems and just hammers the network stack / telnet interface on the >>>PCjr, or does nothing like that exist already? It seems like so many >>>TCP/IP stacks have been written for various machines over the years >>>that it surprises me nobody's come up with a solution for automating >>>some of the testing. >>Testing exercises what the test writer expects to break. I've tested >>quite extensively already, but every once in a while I need to get >>outside help to try to break things in new and exciting ways. > >Sure - I suppose I've just surprised that there isn't already >something in the public domain that can't flood a system, generate >bogus/corrupt packets etc. in order to test a stack out; it still >wouldn't catch all bugs of course, but might give a faster response to >most problems than asking the list. I've used IP Stack Integrity Checker. http://www.packetfactory.net/Projects/ISIC/ -Rick From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Sep 14 11:56:39 2008 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 12:56:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PCjr Telnet Server Test In-Reply-To: <48CD4EB6.2050501@brutman.com> References: <48CB1F56.8040903@brutman.com> <48CC13B2.1000700@brutman.com> <48CC2774.7000806@brutman.com> <48CC52DF.9080803@philpem.me.uk> <48CD2862.30102@gmail.com> <48CD3AE0.6050403@brutman.com> <48CD3415.6030707@gmail.com> <48CD4EB6.2050501@brutman.com> Message-ID: <200809141658.MAA23128@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > The backspace is an interesting problem. I've interpreting ASCII 8 > as a backspace, which seems pretty normal to me. But a lot of > clients are sending ASCII 127. Telnet doesn't actually specify > backspace as required function. I need to do more research to see > what the correct behavior is. Part of the problem is that the specs for things like backspace are for *output*. Overloading them on input for things like line editing is somewhat outside the design envelope for them, so it's hardly surprising that the specs are silent. As far as I can tell, the only spec for what characters should do what in an input line editor is user expectations. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jfk at kuenzigbooks.com Sun Sep 14 22:12:22 2008 From: jfk at kuenzigbooks.com (Kuenzig Books, John F. Kuenzig) Date: Sun, 14 Sep 2008 23:12:22 -0400 Subject: PCjr Telnet Server Test In-Reply-To: <48CD2862.30102@gmail.com> References: <48CB1F56.8040903@brutman.com> <48CC13B2.1000700@brutman.com> <48CC2774.7000806@brutman.com> <48CC52DF.9080803@philpem.me.uk> <48CD2862.30102@gmail.com> Message-ID: <48CDD296.2030103@kuenzigbooks.com> Jules - There are lots of solutions for automating software testing out there. I built in a past life a system (Hammer Technologies' Hammer) for beating on voicemail systems over the telephone network so that these systems could be load tested without 150 humans calling in at one time (and believe me we did live tests in the early days on voicemail systems just like that!!!). Even patented a speech recognition approach to make sure the voicemail systems were responding properly. Similarly there are software systems that will duplicate any specified series of actions that a human (or computer) might take in order to simulate a user and (in most cases) record the results. This of course only measures the "outsiders'" view of what is going on, and doesn't look at the internals of the stack or anything else. But it does make for a useful tool to evaluate remotely whether something is still running. Many of the large financial services companies with complex financial software running for their customers use similar systems today to monitor their uptime and catch problems before they affect too many users. I've been out of it way too long to know who is current with the best solutions, but companies like Empirix.com (where my company Hammer Technologies eventually ended up) do similar things today. There have got to be some shareware systems somewhere that do this. Anyone running a UNIX box out there ought to be able to write a shell script to test Mike's setup and record the responses. It will be easier when a "pcjr>" response prompt is implemented so that there is a real response to check on the way back...otherwise the user is forced to just wait and then type a command that should return something like "help" or "nicks" John Kuenzig Jules Richardson wrote: > Philip Pemberton wrote: >> I did come up with one "nice to have" -- is there any chance of >> adding a prompt character/string to it, say "pcjr> " or similar? Just >> that I thought it had fallen over after the MOTD until I typed >> "help" and it actually *worked*... > > Yeah, that 'bit' me, too. > > Re. testing, is there any way to write something that runs on remote > systems and just hammers the network stack / telnet interface on the > PCjr, or does nothing like that exist already? It seems like so many > TCP/IP stacks have been written for various machines over the years > that it surprises me nobody's come up with a solution for automating > some of the testing. > > cheers > > Jules > > > From Mark.Brennan at ie.fujitsu.com Mon Sep 15 06:32:52 2008 From: Mark.Brennan at ie.fujitsu.com (Brennan Mark) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 12:32:52 +0100 Subject: any Apollo fans out yonder? In-Reply-To: <20080914081851.71873fea.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <475613.43223.qm@web65512.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><48C6702B.5040407@gmail.com> <48C74803.5070303@hawkmountain.net><51ea77730809092115j53c87334yd2064640a1aceacf@mail.gmail.com><091020081736.20066.48C805A50006684500004E6222230680329B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net><51ea77730809101334o35eca59dnb86689bb4bc2c799@mail.gmail.com> <20080914081851.71873fea.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: <299EB6FC242FCF47AA4118ED9365BF94014F9A3F@EUROPEV004.europe.fs.fujitsu.com> Hi All I should have one or two brochures around I will scan and post them this week, I have some press release stuff I was not planning to scan yet but I will check it and see if there is any thing of interest Regards mark ________________________________________________________________________________________ Mark Brennan, System Engineer, Fujitsu Services, Airside Business Park, Swords, County Dublin, Ireland Mobile: +353-87-222-2326 Telephone: +353-1-813 6000 Facsimile: +353-1-813 6600 email: mark.brennan at ie.fujitsu.com Web: ie.fujitsu.com This e-mail is only for the use of its intended recipient. Its contents are subject to a duty of confidence and may be privileged. Fujitsu Services does not guarantee that this e-mail has not been intercepted and amended or that it is virus-free. -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jochen Kunz Sent: 14 September 2008 07:19 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: any Apollo fans out yonder? On Wed, 10 Sep 2008 15:34:25 -0500 "Jason T" wrote: > I'm guessing removing the vid card would force the Apollo to show > console on the serial port? The DN3[05]00 machines have two switches at the back. A reset switch and a service mode switch. If the later is in the upper position the machine will go to serial console. IIRC. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Sep 15 07:34:56 2008 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 08:34:56 -0400 Subject: PCjr Telnet Server Test In-Reply-To: References: <48CB1F56.8040903@brutman.com> <48CB7741.8080007@gjcp.net> <48CBE590.4070001@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <32738.1221482096@mini> Dave McGuire wrote: > > Nah, IP stacks have been done with FAR less than a PDP-8. a pic 18f is the smallest tcp/telnet I've done. I'm sure there are smaller ones. -brad From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Sep 15 10:20:18 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 11:20:18 -0400 Subject: PCjr Telnet Server Test In-Reply-To: <20080915024948.GA16187@brevard.conman.org> References: <48CB1F56.8040903@brutman.com> <48CC13B2.1000700@brutman.com> <48CC2774.7000806@brutman.com> <48CC52DF.9080803@philpem.me.uk> <48CD2862.30102@gmail.com> <48CD3AE0.6050403@brutman.com> <48CD3415.6030707@gmail.com> <20080915024948.GA16187@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <5400E60B-352D-4502-80A3-0BCC9A6C2F7F@neurotica.com> On Sep 14, 2008, at 10:49 PM, Sean Conner wrote: >> Oh, what is the deal with backspace/delete? Backspace does >> nothing, whilst >> delete echos some form of control code to the screen. ctrl-H seems >> to work >> as the erase character, though (and genuinely does erase from the >> string >> that gets sent to the server upon ). Is the PCjr doing >> something >> non-standard with the handling of such keys, or is it just that other >> telnet servers generally hack such keypress processing to accommodate >> modern clients? > > Well, the Linux kernel expects the erase key to be ASCII 127, and > has the > backspace key generate said character. The default xterm expects > the erase > key to be ASCII 8 and doesn't know how to handle ASCII 127 that the > backspace key under Linux sends. And it drives me nuts! That has nothing at all to do with the kernel; it's in the terminal driver. You can control all of those special character interpretations using stty. You can make the "erase" character anything you want, even a regular alpha character, like 'X': $ stty erase X -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 15 11:48:25 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 09:48:25 -0700 Subject: PCjr Telnet Server Test In-Reply-To: <48CDD296.2030103@kuenzigbooks.com> References: <48CB1F56.8040903@brutman.com>, <48CD2862.30102@gmail.com>, <48CDD296.2030103@kuenzigbooks.com> Message-ID: <48CE2F69.32150.5458A85@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Sep 2008 at 23:12, Kuenzig Books, John F. Kuenzig wrote: > There are lots of solutions for automating software testing out there. > I built in a past life a system (Hammer Technologies' Hammer) for > beating on voicemail systems over the telephone network so that these > systems could be load tested without 150 humans calling in at one time > (and believe me we did live tests in the early days on voicemail systems > just like that!!!). Even patented a speech recognition approach to make > sure the voicemail systems were responding properly. I recall a co-worker who had the reputation of being able to break just about anything, even if he didn't understand its function precisely--his mind just worked that way. People like that are worth more than their weight in gold. After you worked over your project, being absolutely certain in its bullet-proofness, it was ready for Ed, who'd usually manage to destroy it in about a half-hour. He thought it was loads of fun. The worst person to write test code is the person who programmed the application. Unfortunately, most of us don't have the luxury of having extra people for testing. Cheers, Chuck From tosteve at yahoo.com Mon Sep 15 12:32:20 2008 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 10:32:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Otrona Attache power supply woes... In-Reply-To: <48CCD938.10300@msu.edu> Message-ID: <763577.30562.qm@web51608.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Attache schematics available here: http://oldcomputers.net/Attache_Schematics.pdf Power Supply is on page A-8. --- On Sun, 9/14/08, Josh Dersch wrote: > From: Josh Dersch > Subject: Otrona Attache power supply woes... > To: "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Sunday, September 14, 2008, 2:28 AM > Picked up an Otrona Attache (w/8086 option) in a trade > today. Very cool > little CP/M machine and I really want to get it running > (hopefully it'll > be easier than the ND-812 fiasco which I've shelved > until I have a ton > of time to do some major work on the sockets...) > > The Attache's power supply is non-functional. I turn > it on and get > absolutely nothing out of it, not even the power supply fan > is > spinning. I've verified the power switch is working > and that the little > 220/110V "card" is flipped the correct way. > Anyone have power supply > schematics (I have logic board schematics)? Anyone seen > similar > problems with this machine? > > Thanks! > Josh From spc at conman.org Mon Sep 15 14:40:58 2008 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 15:40:58 -0400 Subject: PCjr Telnet Server Test In-Reply-To: <5400E60B-352D-4502-80A3-0BCC9A6C2F7F@neurotica.com> References: <48CB1F56.8040903@brutman.com> <48CC13B2.1000700@brutman.com> <48CC2774.7000806@brutman.com> <48CC52DF.9080803@philpem.me.uk> <48CD2862.30102@gmail.com> <48CD3AE0.6050403@brutman.com> <48CD3415.6030707@gmail.com> <20080915024948.GA16187@brevard.conman.org> <5400E60B-352D-4502-80A3-0BCC9A6C2F7F@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20080915194058.GA8053@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Dave McGuire once stated: > On Sep 14, 2008, at 10:49 PM, Sean Conner wrote: > > > > Well, the Linux kernel expects the erase key to be ASCII 127, and has the > >backspace key generate said character. The default xterm expects the erase > >key to be ASCII 8 and doesn't know how to handle ASCII 127 that the > >backspace key under Linux sends. And it drives me nuts! > > That has nothing at all to do with the kernel; it's in the > terminal driver. Which, being Unix, is part of the kernel 8-P > You can control all of those special character > interpretations using stty. You can make the "erase" character > anything you want, even a regular alpha character, like 'X': Yes, I know about that. The problem I have is that I regularly log onto Linux servers using X-Windows (defaults to BS) under Linux (defaults to DEL) and Mac OS-X (defaults to BS) equally, so half the time, I'm in the wrong mode. I suppose I could come up with some shellrc magic to automagically handle that for me, but I would have to add said automagic shellrc stuff to over two dozen servers *and* make sure it works with Windows clients as well (which wouldn't surprise me if sends BS as well). I suppose it could be worse though ... at least Linux got rid of the old System 6 (or was it through System 7?) convention of "@" erasing the current line [1]. -spc (And this is reminding me of the complications I had to go through to get to the computerized card catalog in college [2] from outside the library [3] ... ) [1] Actually encountered that in the wild in the late 90s! I was amazed that any Unix system still used that convention that long. [2] Florida Atlantic University [3] Dial into the local access point (I think it was Tymnet). Connect to one system. Issue a one-letter command to log into another system. Issue another command to get to a menu through which you could select an option to finally log into the library computer. It was only marginally easier than actually downloading files from the CS department computers via the dialup lines. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Sep 15 14:43:39 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 15:43:39 -0400 Subject: PCjr Telnet Server Test In-Reply-To: <200809151647.MAA05023@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <48CB1F56.8040903@brutman.com> <48CC13B2.1000700@brutman.com> <48CC2774.7000806@brutman.com> <48CC52DF.9080803@philpem.me.uk> <48CD2862.30102@gmail.com> <48CD3AE0.6050403@brutman.com> <48CD3415.6030707@gmail.com> <20080915024948.GA16187@brevard.conman.org> <5400E60B-352D-4502-80A3-0BCC9A6C2F7F@neurotica.com> <200809151647.MAA05023@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Sep 15, 2008, at 12:47 PM, der Mouse wrote: >> That has nothing at all to do with the kernel; it's in the terminal >> driver. > > Huh? Isn't the terminal driver part of the kernel? Hmm, now that you mention it, I suppose it is. [dave slinks away and goes back to sleep] -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From chris at mainecoon.com Mon Sep 15 15:51:01 2008 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 13:51:01 -0700 Subject: PCjr Telnet Server Test In-Reply-To: <200809151647.MAA05023@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <48CB1F56.8040903@brutman.com> <48CC13B2.1000700@brutman.com> <48CC2774.7000806@brutman.com> <48CC52DF.9080803@philpem.me.uk> <48CD2862.30102@gmail.com> <48CD3AE0.6050403@brutman.com> <48CD3415.6030707@gmail.com> <20080915024948.GA16187@brevard.conman.org> <5400E60B-352D-4502-80A3-0BCC9A6C2F7F@neurotica.com> <200809151647.MAA05023@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <48CECAB5.8060103@mainecoon.com> der Mouse wrote: >> That has nothing at all to do with the kernel; it's in the terminal >> driver. > > Huh? Isn't the terminal driver part of the kernel? Depends on heritage. Since SysV it's more often it's a streams module which certainly can (but does not have to ) execute in kernel space; for those that do the analogy is closer to a loadable device driver than part of the kernel proper. -- Chris Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP/AFA6KY http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 15 16:03:28 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 22:03:28 +0100 (BST) Subject: substitute tube for DEC VR201? In-Reply-To: <20080913205915.GC25862@n0jcf.net> from "Chris Elmquist" at Sep 13, 8 03:59:15 pm Message-ID: > > On Saturday (09/13/2008 at 08:52PM +0100), Tony Duell wrote: > > > I'm also toying with the idea of fitting an LCD into a VR201 cabinet > > > and although it wouldn't be authentic, it would sure make the system > > > more useable. > > > > I am curious as to why an LCD in the VR201 cabinet is more useable than > > the CRT. I can't see much difference in useability (but would much rather > > have to repair a CRT_based monitor than an LCD-based one). > > Well, if I can't find a tube to replace it... then I'd consider an LCD. Do you really have no old 12" monchrome portable TVs/monitors around? I am sure you could find a CRT that would work. > Repair of the unit after the LCD was swapped in would be by replacing > the entire LCD subsystem. But-- I'm betting that if the LCD survives Assuming you could get one.... I can see you having the same problem as finding a replacement CRT now... > the first few hours of life, it will then probably outlive me and it > becomes the next guy's problem to repair it :-) Well, in all my classic computers I've had one CRT fail. That was in a Volker-Craig terminal and amazinging the weld between the cathode and its base pin factured, so there was no cathode current (no, I don't mean heater/filament here). I remember raiding a CRT from another old monitor, popping it in and having no problems. I've had 2 or 3 LCD panels fail, due to the ceals between the 2 class plates failing and the liquid crystal itself leaking out. The panel turns black from one corner/edge since without the LC material, the plane of polarization of the light is no longer twisted, so the 2 external crossed polarisers son't transmit much. In terms of the driver circuitry, I don't think I've had an LCD driver chip fail. Of course I've had CRT drivers fail, but normallly an easy-to-get component, like a transistor, dies. > I think what I really need to do is just come to terms with looking > through the fog. The monitor works fine otherwise-- nice and bright > and no burn-in so the whole issue is strictly cosmetic. I've never tried to remove and re-bond a faceplate, but I've heard others have mamanged it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 15 16:08:42 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 22:08:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: Otrona Attache power supply woes... In-Reply-To: <48CCD938.10300@msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Sep 14, 8 02:28:24 am Message-ID: > The Attache's power supply is non-functional. I turn it on and get > absolutely nothing out of it, not even the power supply fan is > spinning. I've verified the power switch is working and that the little > 220/110V "card" is flipped the correct way. Anyone have power supply > schematics (I have logic board schematics)? Anyone seen similar > problems with this machine? No, but assuming this is an SMPSU I've seen similar problems in other machines. There are 2 main causes of an SMPSU being totally dead. Firstly a shorted semiconductor (rectifier diode or chopper transistor) on the mains side of the supply. This will, of course, blow the fuse -- I assume you've checked that!. Occasionally a low-value series resistor fails too and either the fuse holds, are a replacement fuse will hold. Typically the owner replaces the fuse, sees it's still dead, and gives up. So start bu finding the chopper -- the large power transistor on the primary side of the uspply -- and testing it. I asusme you've foudn the mains smoothing capacitors (normally a few hundred uF at 200V each). _Carefully_ (you are dealing with live mains!) measure the voltage across those with the machine on. Expect about 350V across the 2 in series. The sceond cause is an open-circuit startup resistor. Start from the +ve side of that mains smouthing capacitor pair and look for a high value resistor (a few hundred k) from there to a point in the chopper circuit. These resistors have a habit of failing open. Desolder it and test. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 15 16:18:44 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 22:18:44 +0100 (BST) Subject: OT? HPCC mini-conference photos Message-ID: The reason this is OT-ish is that HPCC is not a classic computer organisation. But at the mini-conference each year it's become something of a tradition for yours truely to dismantle some strange piece of HP computer hardware, almost always over 10 years old Anyway, there are some pictures of this year's event on http://www.voidware.com/ In case any of you care what I look like, I'm the 'high mass hobbyist' in some of the pictures. In particular in the first picture (also on the homepage IIRC) I'm the person holding up a length of paper tape. Other photos are probably of more interest. This year I dismantled an HP2748A paper tape reader. There are some pictures of the chassis and at least 2 of the PCBs. Also a picture of some of my classic HPs, including a 9830 which I used to demonstrate the reader. The laptop thing is an HP PortablePlus. You see I needed to show the program listings and program output to the audience and the HP9830 display is not ideal for this. So I stuck the 11205 serial interface module in and linked that to the PortablePlus running a terminal emulator. Now I have the somewhat rare compositie video output module for the PortablePlus, the output of that I pluggged into a borrowed, modern, video projector. -tony From tosteve at yahoo.com Mon Sep 15 18:15:32 2008 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 16:15:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP-150 and AT&T 3B1 UNIX box, FREE in Spokane, Washington Message-ID: <633519.73648.qm@web51601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Please contact GARY below, these are not my systems. ---------------------------------------------------- One HP 150 touchscreen (1984), inkjet printer and software. Also have one AT&T 3B1 UNIX box, with software. They both work. Free, you pay shipping. Gary Redmond gfredmond at comcast.net ---------------------------------------------------- From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Sep 15 19:25:11 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 17:25:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: UPS Store has me annoyed Message-ID: I went down to the local UPS store to have an Osborne Executive double-boxed for shipping to its new owner. I previously had this store double box two IMSAIs and two Altairs. Each time it cost around $35 to do it. This time it was way out of line. First, they were out of big bubbles, so they had to use lots more of the little bubbles to get two-inches of padding all the way around. Second, the prices of their boxes is astronomical. A 30x30x20 outer carton cost $12. The inner carton cost $8. The total just for packing this computer came to $68. The computer itself sold for $55. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 15 20:55:32 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 18:55:32 -0700 Subject: UPS Store has me annoyed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48CEAFA4.32122.73A6F1F@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Sep 2008 at 17:25, David Griffith wrote: > I went down to the local UPS store to have an Osborne Executive > double-boxed for shipping to its new owner. I previously had this store > double box two IMSAIs and two Altairs. Each time it cost around $35 to do > it. This time it was way out of line. First, they were out of big > bubbles, so they had to use lots more of the little bubbles to get > two-inches of padding all the way around. Second, the prices of their > boxes is astronomical. A 30x30x20 outer carton cost $12. The inner > carton cost $8. The total just for packing this computer came to $68. > The computer itself sold for $55. The only way I use the local UPS store is to drop off packed and prepaid boxes for shipping. I don't trust them to pack anything--and their rates, as you mentioned, are waaay out of line. Cheers, Chuck From jzg22 at drexel.edu Mon Sep 15 21:56:12 2008 From: jzg22 at drexel.edu (Jonathan Gevaryahu) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 22:56:12 -0400 Subject: IBM 5150 4/81 bios Message-ID: <48CF204C.6050207@drexel.edu> Does anyone have a copy of this? Its needed for the MESS (a computer hardware documentation/emulation) project. -- Jonathan Gevaryahu jgevaryahu(@t)hotmail(d0t)com jzg22(@t)drexel(d0t)edu From fu3.org at gmail.com Mon Sep 15 22:27:30 2008 From: fu3.org at gmail.com (ch) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 05:27:30 +0200 Subject: IBM 5150 4/81 bios In-Reply-To: <48CF204C.6050207@drexel.edu> References: <48CF204C.6050207@drexel.edu> Message-ID: <310f50ab0809152027x7ef3bb6r630932848a23d3d1@mail.gmail.com> 2008/9/16 Jonathan Gevaryahu : > Does anyone have a copy of this? Its needed for the MESS (a computer > hardware documentation/emulation) project. > > -- > Jonathan Gevaryahu > jgevaryahu(@t)hotmail(d0t)com > jzg22(@t)drexel(d0t)edu > > This has a "slightly hacked" 10/82 ROM, http://www.hampa.ch/pce/index.html From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Mon Sep 15 23:36:23 2008 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 22:36:23 -0600 Subject: IBM 5150 4/81 bios In-Reply-To: <48CF204C.6050207@drexel.edu> References: <48CF204C.6050207@drexel.edu> Message-ID: <48CF37C7.5040007@brutman.com> Jonathan Gevaryahu wrote: > Does anyone have a copy of this? Its needed for the MESS (a computer > hardware documentation/emulation) project. > I've supplied the project with the 10/81 BIOS, but they are coming up short finding the April BIOS which is the first revision. Somebody out there must have one that they are willing to share a dump of .. -Mike PS: Jr is still up. I want a few more connections to get the packet counts over 64K, and then I'm happy. Telnet to 97.86.233.68 one last time for me, poke around, fiddle with the backspace, and that should do it. From fu3.org at gmail.com Mon Sep 15 22:51:22 2008 From: fu3.org at gmail.com (ch) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 05:51:22 +0200 Subject: IBM 5150 4/81 bios In-Reply-To: <48CF37C7.5040007@brutman.com> References: <48CF204C.6050207@drexel.edu> <48CF37C7.5040007@brutman.com> Message-ID: <310f50ab0809152051r3db10eb5jdc11a8d77f696367@mail.gmail.com> 2008/9/16 Michael B. Brutman : > > -Mike > > > PS: Jr is still up. I want a few more connections to get the packet counts > over 64K, and then I'm happy. Telnet to 97.86.233.68 one last time for me, > poke around, fiddle with the backspace, and that should do it. > > Sure hope holding backspace isn't considered ''anti-social,'' (or strains Jr somehow;) - must be better than holding the enter key, I figured, what with the info menu being pushed constantly, and all.. ;) From tiggerlasv at aim.com Mon Sep 15 23:23:31 2008 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 00:23:31 -0400 Subject: UPS Store has me annoyed Message-ID: <8CAE5CB1C6EE408-1210-33B8@WEBMAIL-MB06.sysops.aol.com> On 15 Sep 2008 at 17:25, David Griffith wrote: > Second, the prices of their boxes is astronomical. > A 30x30x20 outer carton cost $12. > The inner carton cost $8. The total just for packing this computer came to $68. > The computer itself sold for $55. I work for a freight company; 36 x 22 x 20" boxes cost us $11.75 each, when purchased in quantities of 50 or more. We order full rolls of large-bubble bubble-wrap at aroudn $45 / roll; 1/4 roll would cost you about $11.25. I'd say the price for packing is reasonable, taking into account labor, and their markup. If you're going to ship this type of equipment, it's best to get a rough quote first, and simply advise the buyer that he is responsible for all shipping costs. Yeah, it's nice to have an exact dollar amount ahead of time, but the only way that's going to happen is if you take your photos first, have the unit boxed up, and then post it for sale. Alternately, you can buy the materials yourself; U-haul has an interesting selection of boxes, and also carries rolls of bubble wrap. That has the added benefit of knowing that your item is adequately packed. T From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Sep 16 00:32:55 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 22:32:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: UPS Store has me annoyed In-Reply-To: <8CAE5CB1C6EE408-1210-33B8@WEBMAIL-MB06.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CAE5CB1C6EE408-1210-33B8@WEBMAIL-MB06.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 16 Sep 2008 tiggerlasv at aim.com wrote: > On 15 Sep 2008 at 17:25, David Griffith wrote: > > > Second, the prices of their boxes is astronomical. > > A 30x30x20 outer carton cost $12. > > > The inner carton cost $8. The total just for packing this computer > came to $68. > > The computer itself sold for $55. > > I work for a freight company; 36 x 22 x 20" boxes cost us $11.75 each, > when purchased in quantities of 50 or more. > > We order full rolls of large-bubble bubble-wrap at aroudn $45 / roll; > 1/4 roll would cost you about $11.25. When I buy large pink bubbles, I pay $16 for a full roll. How long/wide are yours? > I'd say the price for packing is reasonable, taking into account > labor, and their markup. The biggest problem was not using big bubbles kicked the price much higher. > Alternately, you can buy the materials yourself; > U-haul has an interesting selection of boxes, and > also carries rolls of bubble wrap. That has the added benefit > of knowing that your item is adequately packed. Oh, I do. There's a shop here in Bakersfield that has rows of boxes, bubbles, foam, etc. I'll drop in on Tuesday for supplies to get this Osborne packed up. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Sep 15 11:47:01 2008 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 12:47:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PCjr Telnet Server Test In-Reply-To: <5400E60B-352D-4502-80A3-0BCC9A6C2F7F@neurotica.com> References: <48CB1F56.8040903@brutman.com> <48CC13B2.1000700@brutman.com> <48CC2774.7000806@brutman.com> <48CC52DF.9080803@philpem.me.uk> <48CD2862.30102@gmail.com> <48CD3AE0.6050403@brutman.com> <48CD3415.6030707@gmail.com> <20080915024948.GA16187@brevard.conman.org> <5400E60B-352D-4502-80A3-0BCC9A6C2F7F@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200809151647.MAA05023@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > That has nothing at all to do with the kernel; it's in the terminal > driver. Huh? Isn't the terminal driver part of the kernel? /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From falbert at rogers.com Mon Sep 15 22:43:50 2008 From: falbert at rogers.com (Fred Albert) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 22:43:50 -0500 Subject: [Ottawa, Canada] Sale of working Columbia 1600-VP Message-ID: <8D6B66EE4F114EBDA73DC1CEC6A5CDF8@FredPC> To make space I am having to part with the above computer. Condition is "Good - Working" (i.e. no parts missing, a few scuff marks and other signs of wear. Boots up and runs fine.) I have just tested it using Communique 3.1 (an old DOS word processing package) and - after adjusting a few keys in the keyboard - it works fine. Description Columbia 1600-VP by Columbia Data Products Date of Manufacture 2-84 Rev J Serial Number 13136A Portable (luggable 35 lbs/16Kg) IBM clone 9" green monitor 2 5.25 (360K) disk drives 128K memory Other info on the 1600 can be found at: http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?st=1&c=889 I have a boot disk for it and several word processing programs (it was used to teach word processing). I also have well over 100 5.25 disks as well. I'd be happy to include these for no additional charge. Any reasonable offer plus shipping will be considered. From derschjo at msu.edu Mon Sep 15 22:59:44 2008 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 20:59:44 -0700 Subject: Otrona Attache power supply woes... In-Reply-To: <763577.30562.qm@web51608.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <763577.30562.qm@web51608.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48CF2F30.6010908@msu.edu> Ah, excellent. Thanks! Josh steven stengel wrote: > Attache schematics available here: > http://oldcomputers.net/Attache_Schematics.pdf > Power Supply is on page A-8. > > > > --- On Sun, 9/14/08, Josh Dersch wrote: > > >> From: Josh Dersch >> Subject: Otrona Attache power supply woes... >> To: "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> Date: Sunday, September 14, 2008, 2:28 AM >> Picked up an Otrona Attache (w/8086 option) in a trade >> today. Very cool >> little CP/M machine and I really want to get it running >> (hopefully it'll >> be easier than the ND-812 fiasco which I've shelved >> until I have a ton >> of time to do some major work on the sockets...) >> >> The Attache's power supply is non-functional. I turn >> it on and get >> absolutely nothing out of it, not even the power supply fan >> is >> spinning. I've verified the power switch is working >> and that the little >> 220/110V "card" is flipped the correct way. >> Anyone have power supply >> schematics (I have logic board schematics)? Anyone seen >> similar >> problems with this machine? >> >> Thanks! >> Josh >> > > > > > > From derschjo at msu.edu Mon Sep 15 23:41:50 2008 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 21:41:50 -0700 Subject: Otrona Attache power supply woes... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48CF390E.1060904@msu.edu> Tony Duell wrote: >> The Attache's power supply is non-functional. I turn it on and get >> absolutely nothing out of it, not even the power supply fan is >> spinning. I've verified the power switch is working and that the little >> 220/110V "card" is flipped the correct way. Anyone have power supply >> schematics (I have logic board schematics)? Anyone seen similar >> problems with this machine? >> > > No, but assuming this is an SMPSU I've seen similar problems in other > machines. > > There are 2 main causes of an SMPSU being totally dead. Firstly a shorted > semiconductor (rectifier diode or chopper transistor) on the mains side > of the supply. This will, of course, blow the fuse -- I assume you've > checked that!. Yep, of course :). Fuse is good, power supply is getting AC... > Occasionally a low-value series resistor fails too and > either the fuse holds, are a replacement fuse will hold. Typically the > owner replaces the fuse, sees it's still dead, and gives up. > > So start bu finding the chopper -- the large power transistor on the > primary side of the uspply -- and testing it. > Tested it, seems to be OK. > I asusme you've foudn the mains smoothing capacitors (normally a few > hundred uF at 200V each). _Carefully_ (you are dealing with live mains!) > measure the voltage across those with the machine on. Expect about 350V > across the 2 in series. > I get about 320V. > The sceond cause is an open-circuit startup resistor. Start from the +ve > side of that mains smouthing capacitor pair and look for a high value > resistor (a few hundred k) from there to a point in the chopper circuit. > These resistors have a habit of failing open. Desolder it and test. > There's a pair of 100K resistors on the other side of the smoothing capacitors and they check out OK. After looking over the schematics pointed out to me (http://oldcomputers.net/Attache_Schematics.pdf -- see pg. 8) I metered out the voltages at the op-amp and I'm getting 8V (which, if I'm reading the schematics correctly, is not unexpected). I'm not sure where else on the board to check (I'm still learning this stuff, but I'm getting better, honest!). I get nothing at all at the actual power supply outputs. Thanks for the help thus far! Josh > -tony > > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 16 04:18:53 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 10:18:53 +0100 Subject: Otrona Attache power supply woes... In-Reply-To: <48CF390E.1060904@msu.edu> Message-ID: derschjo at msu.edu wrote: > After looking over the schematics pointed out to me > (http://oldcomputers.net/Attache_Schematics.pdf -- see pg. 8) I metered > out the voltages at the op-amp and I'm getting 8V (which, if I'm reading > the schematics correctly, is not unexpected). I'm not sure where else > on the board to check (I'm still learning this stuff, but I'm getting > better, honest!). > > I get nothing at all at the actual power supply outputs. This is a relatively unconventional and repairer-friendly SMPSU! The chopper control circuitry is all on the output side of the isoaltion barrier and the startup supply comes from a little mains transformer and linear regulator. Start by checking for the +8V supply from U1 on the PSU mainboard. This, I suspect is present, it's the 8V you've seen on the op-amp. Now check for the 5V reference voltage from pin 14 of U4 (the TL494). Now, I think that TL494 should be oscillating, at least at startup. See if you get anything on pin 8. A TL494 datasheet would be a useful thing to have! What voltage do you see on pin 3 (Comp) of this chip? That's the output of the error amplifier IIRC. It appears there's an overcurrent shutdown circuit connected there, maybe that's shutting it down. Main voltage regulation is the comparison of -ER (half the reference voltage) and a divided down version of the 5V output on +ER. What about pin 9? If that's high (8V), it'll shut the supply down. There's a chopper overcurrent circuit and a +5V overvoltage circuit connected here I think. Whatever you do, don't disable any of the overcurrent or overvoltage circuits If there really is a problem, doing that can prove spectacular and expensive! -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Sep 16 10:22:33 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 11:22:33 -0400 Subject: PCjr Telnet Server Test In-Reply-To: <20080915194058.GA8053@brevard.conman.org> References: <48CB1F56.8040903@brutman.com> <48CC13B2.1000700@brutman.com> <48CC2774.7000806@brutman.com> <48CC52DF.9080803@philpem.me.uk> <48CD2862.30102@gmail.com> <48CD3AE0.6050403@brutman.com> <48CD3415.6030707@gmail.com> <20080915024948.GA16187@brevard.conman.org> <5400E60B-352D-4502-80A3-0BCC9A6C2F7F@neurotica.com> <20080915194058.GA8053@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: On Sep 15, 2008, at 3:40 PM, Sean Conner wrote: >>> Well, the Linux kernel expects the erase key to be ASCII 127, >>> and has the >>> backspace key generate said character. The default xterm >>> expects the erase >>> key to be ASCII 8 and doesn't know how to handle ASCII 127 that the >>> backspace key under Linux sends. And it drives me nuts! >> >> That has nothing at all to do with the kernel; it's in the >> terminal driver. > > Which, being Unix, is part of the kernel 8-P Yeah, I was tired and hip-deep in pthreads code when I wrote that, trying to debug a process containing some ninety threads. My brain was fried. >> You can control all of those special character >> interpretations using stty. You can make the "erase" character >> anything you want, even a regular alpha character, like 'X': > > Yes, I know about that. The problem I have is that I regularly > log onto > Linux servers using X-Windows (defaults to BS) under Linux > (defaults to DEL) > and Mac OS-X (defaults to BS) equally, so half the time, I'm in the > wrong > mode. I suppose I could come up with some shellrc magic to > automagically > handle that for me, but I would have to add said automagic shellrc > stuff to > over two dozen servers *and* make sure it works with Windows > clients as > well (which wouldn't surprise me if sends BS as well). I set *everything* to use DEL by default...makes life much easier. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Sep 16 13:44:50 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 19:44:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: Otrona Attache power supply woes... In-Reply-To: <48CF390E.1060904@msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Sep 15, 8 09:41:50 pm Message-ID: > > I asusme you've foudn the mains smoothing capacitors (normally a few > > hundred uF at 200V each). _Carefully_ (you are dealing with live mains!) > > measure the voltage across those with the machine on. Expect about 350V > > across the 2 in series. > > > I get about 320V. That sounds fine. OK, the input rectifier/smoothing ciruit is fine. > > The sceond cause is an open-circuit startup resistor. Start from the +ve > > side of that mains smouthing capacitor pair and look for a high value > > resistor (a few hundred k) from there to a point in the chopper circuit. > > These resistors have a habit of failing open. Desolder it and test. > > > There's a pair of 100K resistors on the other side of the smoothing > capacitors and they check out OK. Right. I sent my last message before I'd had a chance ot look at the schematic. Those resistors are called 'bleeders', their job is to discharge the smoothing capacitors when the supply is turned off. There is no startup resistor. The startup supply comes from a mains transformer and 8V regulator. Since you're getting 8V on the op-amp chip I think this is working correctly (but check it). See my other message for more ideas. -tony From dm561 at torfree.net Tue Sep 16 16:38:19 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 17:38:19 -0400 Subject: substitute tube for DEC VR201? Message-ID: <01C91824.19AB0F20@host-208-72-122-11.dyn.295.ca> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 22:03:28 +0100 (BST) From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Subject: Re: substitute tube for DEC VR201? > > On Saturday (09/13/2008 at 08:52PM +0100), Tony Duell wrote: > > > I'm also toying with the idea of fitting an LCD into a VR201 cabinet > > > and although it wouldn't be authentic, it would sure make the system > > > more useable. > > > > I am curious as to why an LCD in the VR201 cabinet is more useable than > > the CRT. I can't see much difference in useability (but would much rather > > have to repair a CRT_based monitor than an LCD-based one). > > Well, if I can't find a tube to replace it... then I'd consider an LCD. Do you really have no old 12" monchrome portable TVs/monitors around? I am sure you could find a CRT that would work. ---------------------------- I've got a number of CRTs here, white/green/amber, new/used, various sizes, if the OP's serious, but I'm not sure how I'd safely ship one. m From legalize at xmission.com Tue Sep 16 16:59:40 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 15:59:40 -0600 Subject: substitute tube for DEC VR201? In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 16 Sep 2008 17:38:19 -0400. <01C91824.19AB0F20@host-208-72-122-11.dyn.295.ca> Message-ID: In article <01C91824.19AB0F20 at host-208-72-122-11.dyn.295.ca>, M H Stein writes: > I've got a number of CRTs here, white/green/amber, new/used, various sizes, > if the OP's serious, but I'm not sure how I'd safely ship one. Wrap with 2 layers of large bubble size bubble wrap and then place in a box and fill the voids with wadded up newspaper or peanuts. This should be sufficient for any bare tube. For a tube inside an enclosure, then you need to take a look at how the tube is mounted in the enclosure. Some enclosures just have plastic mounting posts holding the CRT in place. That's fine for the CRT sitting on a desk, but not good when the whole thing is dropped 2 feet from the back of a truck. In those cases, I suggest wadding packing inside the enclosure to keep the CRT braced by more than just the mounting posts. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 16 18:14:11 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 16:14:11 -0700 Subject: substitute tube for DEC VR201? In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <48CFDB53.11769.BCD12F9@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Sep 2008 at 15:59, Richard wrote: > This should be sufficient for any bare tube. For a tube inside an > enclosure, then you need to take a look at how the tube is mounted in > the enclosure. Some enclosures just have plastic mounting posts > holding the CRT in place. That's fine for the CRT sitting on a desk, > but not good when the whole thing is dropped 2 feet from the back of a > truck. In those cases, I suggest wadding packing inside the enclosure > to keep the CRT braced by more than just the mounting posts. I'd add a layer on all 4 sides of polystyrene foam sheet (available from your local big box DIY store as insulation). Inexpensive and something to add a little structure and to soften the bumps. Cut it with a serrated-blade bread knife. Cheers, Chuck From sellam at vintagetech.com Tue Sep 16 19:36:15 2008 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 17:36:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ankh for Apple ][? Message-ID: Does anyone remember the game Ankh for the Apple ][ (and probably other platforms)? It can be considered a pre-cursor to these online puzzle games done in Flash that are prevalent all over the internets these days. Ankh had all these strange puzzles in a maze that you moved around in, collecting parts and pieces that you would use in other parts of the maze to open or close doors or boxes or whatever. I played it out for several hours one day but, my copy being a pirated one, it was corrupted at some level and I could never get past a certain point. Does anyone have a good copy of this game that I can download? I sure would appreciate it as I'd like to finish it and see what happens in the end. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Tue Sep 16 23:58:15 2008 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 22:58:15 -0600 Subject: PCjr Telnet Server Test - Done! In-Reply-To: <200809151647.MAA05023@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <48CB1F56.8040903@brutman.com> <48CC13B2.1000700@brutman.com> <48CC2774.7000806@brutman.com> <48CC52DF.9080803@philpem.me.uk> <48CD2862.30102@gmail.com> <48CD3AE0.6050403@brutman.com> <48CD3415.6030707@gmail.com> <20080915024948.GA16187@brevard.conman.org> <5400E60B-352D-4502-80A3-0BCC9A6C2F7F@neurotica.com> <200809151647.MAA05023@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <48D08E67.7010607@brutman.com> After close to 3.5 days of run time I finally shut the PCjr down. Here are the raw stats: 685 sessions (of which about 370 were generated by a script) TCP packets sent: 93204 TCP packets received: 87367 TCP packets retransmitted: 414 TCP packets dropped due to low buffer space: None Raw packets sent: 93789 Raw packets received: 92458 Raw packets dropped due to low buffer space: 24 The first part of the test started Friday night, and the machine crashed early on Saturday afternoon. That was the stack corruption bug exposed by the failed connection attempt with the SYN packets being retransmitted. I had about 70 connections and 40 or 50,000 packets in and out before the crash. After a quick debug session and some new code I started the test again. The statistics reflect the activity after the restart. The rate of retransmitted packets is very low, which is good. About one half of one percent of packets (or 1 in 200) needed to be retransmitted. This often occurs when the remote connection drops - my code might try to send a packet, retransmit the packet because there is no response, and then eventually give up. It's also possible that packets were being dropped along the way depending on routers and traffic. The 'Raw packet' numbers refer to the packet driver. All 24 packets were lost in a 15 minute period while Chuck G. was on the machine experimenting with OS/2 Warp clients. I don't know what caused the hiccup, but it was brutal. Nothing crashed though, and no active sessions were prematurely lost as a result although a few of his sessions seemed to be hung. (I need to find the spot in the very large tcpdump trace where that happened.) Here are some of the gripes: - Backspace (ASCII 8 ) vs. DEL (ASCII 127) - I probably need to accept both - User interface issues - sorry, this is a test of my TCP code .. I put the bare minimum up to get it going. - Some lag time .. depending on your geographic location it could be very bad. Not much I can do here, except let the code negotiate line mode. Now on the other hand, I think that everybody who commented on it thought it was the coolest thing. Which really made me feel pretty good about my on and off again three year investment in the TCP/IP code. I even traded wisecracks with a certain collector who's name starts with an S who was completely blown away by the power and might of the Jr. He thought it was a Cray. I corrected him, and let him know that I use the Cray strictly as a firewall. ;-0 I'm going to be reading logs and looking for problems in the traces the next few weeks, and possibly fix a few bugs. I'm also still debating in my head whether the world needs a another Telnet BBS. It's a fun project and it might be worth doing on a small scale, but a big full featured Telnet BBS is a lot of work. If I do it, I've already started thinking about how to cluster a few Jrs to increase the total number of concurrent online users. Thanks for all of the help testing it. Regards, Mike From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 17 00:42:39 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 22:42:39 -0700 Subject: PCjr Telnet Server Test - Done! In-Reply-To: <48D08E67.7010607@brutman.com> References: <48CB1F56.8040903@brutman.com>, <200809151647.MAA05023@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG>, <48D08E67.7010607@brutman.com> Message-ID: <48D0365F.12041.D30B518@cclist.sydex.com> On 16 Sep 2008 at 22:58, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > The 'Raw packet' numbers refer to the packet driver. All 24 packets were > lost in a 15 minute period while Chuck G. was on the machine > experimenting with OS/2 Warp clients. I don't know what caused the > hiccup, but it was brutal. Nothing crashed though, and no active > sessions were prematurely lost as a result although a few of his > sessions seemed to be hung. (I need to find the spot in the very large > tcpdump trace where that happened.) If you want to ease the task a bit, let me know when you've got a "clean" log and I'll come on and repeat the experiment. You know, Warp is *really* a nice operating system! Pity that so few use it. Cheers, Chuck From niche at iinet.net.au Tue Sep 16 04:49:55 2008 From: niche at iinet.net.au (Mike) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 17:49:55 +0800 Subject: HP-IB Mass Storage Emulation (Help) Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.0.20080916174924.01dea990@iinet.net.au>> Any progress on this HP-IB Mass storage device for a PC ? Regards from Mike Massen BSc Network Power Systems Lab 08 9444 8961 Mb 0438 048961 Perth, Western Australia * VL/VK & VN/VP/VR GMH Commodore Fuse Rail that wont warp or melt ! * RB30 Skyline/Nissan/VL Milspec ignition drivers with diagnostic features now in economy trials * Twin tyres for most sedans, trikes and motorcycle sidecars * Industrial grade PolyVinyliDeneChloride (PVDC Copolymer) in bulk, the best oxygen and water protective barrier you can find for circuit boards. Web site under construction http://niche.ii.net Pictures of visit to Mendulong re RAPS retrofit, http://members.iinet.net.au/~erazmus/Power/ From chrise at pobox.com Tue Sep 16 07:53:21 2008 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 07:53:21 -0500 Subject: substitute tube for DEC VR201? In-Reply-To: References: <20080913205915.GC25862@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20080916125321.GC2137@n0jcf.net> On Monday (09/15/2008 at 10:03PM +0100), Tony Duell wrote: > > Do you really have no old 12" monchrome portable TVs/monitors around? I > am sure you could find a CRT that would work. No... there was a dark period in my life when I decided to get rid of all that stuff... even had a Zenith ZVM-1240 monitor (and of course the Z100 to go with it!) which I gave away. http://www.recycledgoods.com/images/s_p_17993_1.jpg Wouldn't that have been a good replacement? > > Repair of the unit after the LCD was swapped in would be by replacing > > the entire LCD subsystem. But-- I'm betting that if the LCD survives > > Assuming you could get one.... I can see you having the same problem as > finding a replacement CRT now... Actually, there are a number of LCD "modules" that are good candidates. These are basically LCD TVs and end up in planes, trains and automobiles so people can watch DVDs instead of staring at the back of a seat. > > I think what I really need to do is just come to terms with looking > > through the fog. The monitor works fine otherwise-- nice and bright > > and no burn-in so the whole issue is strictly cosmetic. > > I've never tried to remove and re-bond a faceplate, but I've heard others > have mamanged it. I've seen those efforts discussed. I think I'll pass on that operation because it could truely be a destructive procedure. At least now, the monitor works and just looks crappy. After blowing apart the CRT while trying to peel the front off, I'd really be behind the curve :-) Chris -- Chris Elmquist mailto:chrise at pobox.com From derschjo at msu.edu Wed Sep 17 00:41:14 2008 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 22:41:14 -0700 Subject: Otrona Attache power supply woes... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48D0987A.3060202@msu.edu> ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk wrote: > derschjo at msu.edu wrote: > >> After looking over the schematics pointed out to me >> (http://oldcomputers.net/Attache_Schematics.pdf -- see pg. 8) I metered >> out the voltages at the op-amp and I'm getting 8V (which, if I'm reading >> the schematics correctly, is not unexpected). I'm not sure where else >> on the board to check (I'm still learning this stuff, but I'm getting >> better, honest!). >> >> I get nothing at all at the actual power supply outputs. >> > > This is a relatively unconventional and repairer-friendly SMPSU! The chopper > control circuitry is all on the output side of the isoaltion barrier and > the startup supply comes from a little mains transformer and linear regulator. > > Start by checking for the +8V supply from U1 on the PSU mainboard. This, I > suspect is present, it's the 8V you've seen on the op-amp. > Yep, 8V from U1. (well, 7.92V actually, I assume that's within acceptable range?) > Now check for the 5V reference voltage from pin 14 of U4 (the TL494). > Hmm, I get 6.75V (measuring from Pin 7 (gnd) to 14.) > Now, I think that TL494 should be oscillating, at least at startup. See if > you get anything on pin 8. A TL494 datasheet would be a useful thing to have! > 7.91V on pin 8. (I have a datasheet at http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/tl494.pdf). I scoped it out, and pin 5 is oscillating, a nice sawtooth. > What voltage do you see on pin 3 (Comp) of this chip? That's the output of the > error amplifier IIRC. It appears there's an overcurrent shutdown circuit > connected there, maybe that's shutting it down. > 0.06V on pin 3. > Main voltage regulation is the comparison of -ER (half the reference voltage) > and a divided down version of the 5V output on +ER. > > What about pin 9? If that's high (8V), it'll shut the supply down. There's a > chopper overcurrent circuit and a +5V overvoltage circuit connected here I > think. > 0V on pin 9. > Whatever you do, don't disable any of the overcurrent or overvoltage circuits > If there really is a problem, doing that can prove spectacular and > expensive! > I won't, not that I have any clue how to do that at this point :). Thanks again for the help! Josh > -tony > > > > > From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Sep 17 04:24:02 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon J. C. Pearce (MM3YEQ)) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 10:24:02 +0100 Subject: OS/2 Warp, was Re: PCjr Telnet Server Test - Done! In-Reply-To: <48D0365F.12041.D30B518@cclist.sydex.com> References: <48CB1F56.8040903@brutman.com> , <200809151647.MAA05023@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> , <48D08E67.7010607@brutman.com> <48D0365F.12041.D30B518@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1221643442.12447.0.camel@kusanagi> On Tue, 2008-09-16 at 22:42 -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > If you want to ease the task a bit, let me know when you've got a > "clean" log and I'll come on and repeat the experiment. You know, > Warp is *really* a nice operating system! Pity that so few use it. I'd give it a go if I could find a copy. Where can I get it? Gordon From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Wed Sep 17 06:40:04 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 08:40:04 -0300 Subject: substitute tube for DEC VR201? References: Message-ID: <120701c918ba$73892040$08fea8c0@portajara> > This should be sufficient for any bare tube. For a tube inside an > enclosure, then you need to take a look at how the tube is mounted in > the enclosure. Some enclosures just have plastic mounting posts > holding the CRT in place. That's fine for the CRT sitting on a desk, > but not good when the whole thing is dropped 2 feet from the back of a > truck. In those cases, I suggest wadding packing inside the enclosure > to keep the CRT braced by more than just the mounting posts. For your amusement: http://www.tabajara-labs.com.br/hal/index.htm This is what happens on the above situation, with photos :o) From ragooman at comcast.net Wed Sep 17 06:50:15 2008 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 07:50:15 -0400 Subject: Would anybody know of any CP/M Libraries for the i8231 or AM9511 Math Processor ? Message-ID: <48D0EEF7.9030308@comcast.net> Would anybody know of any CP/M Libraries for the i8231 or AM9511 Math Processor ? This is on the Compupro SS-1 card which I'm using in my IMSAI system. I like to upgrade my system to include any Libraries that may be available. Then I could program with Fortran or any other compiler which is supported. I'm currently using machine code to fiddle with programming this. The manual only has test code for this card and doesn't mention any reference to a Library being available for CP/M. So I was hoping it was created separately during that time. thanks, =Dan -- [ Pittsburgh 250th --- http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Sep 17 09:00:33 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 07:00:33 -0700 Subject: Otrona Attache power supply woes... In-Reply-To: <48D0987A.3060202@msu.edu> References: <48D0987A.3060202@msu.edu> Message-ID: > From: derschjo at msu.edu ---snip--- >> >> Now check for the 5V reference voltage from pin 14 of U4 (the TL494). >> > Hmm, I get 6.75V (measuring from Pin 7 (gnd) to 14.) >> Now, I think that TL494 should be oscillating, at least at startup. See if >> you get anything on pin 8. A TL494 datasheet would be a useful thing to have! >> > 7.91V on pin 8. (I have a datasheet at > http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/tl494.pdf). I scoped it out, and pin > 5 is oscillating, a nice sawtooth. > ---snip--- Hi Doesn't look good for U1. Pin 14 sould be about 5 volts give or take 0.1 volts or so. Also, you should see some pulsing at pin 8 under the conditions of the other pins. It is also a surprise that pin 3 is zero. With that high a reference voltage, Q12 should be on pulling the collector high. This should cause Q13 to be conducting as well. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Get more out of the Web. Learn 10 hidden secrets of Windows Live. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008 From madodel at ptdprolog.net Wed Sep 17 09:36:42 2008 From: madodel at ptdprolog.net (madodel) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 10:36:42 -0400 Subject: OS/2 Warp, was Re: PCjr Telnet Server Test - Done! In-Reply-To: <1221643442.12447.0.camel@kusanagi> References: <48CB1F56.8040903@brutman.com> , <200809151647.MAA05023@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> , <48D08E67.7010607@brutman.com> <48D0365F.12041.D30B518@cclist.sydex.com> <1221643442.12447.0.camel@kusanagi> Message-ID: <48D115FA.1050301@ptdprolog.net> Gordon J. C. Pearce (MM3YEQ) wrote: > On Tue, 2008-09-16 at 22:42 -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> If you want to ease the task a bit, let me know when you've got a >> "clean" log and I'll come on and repeat the experiment. You know, >> Warp is *really* a nice operating system! Pity that so few use it. > > I'd give it a go if I could find a copy. Where can I get it? > There are usually a copy or 2 on eBay relatively cheap. But OS/2 Warp had only dialup TCP support. For full TCP/IP stack you need Warp Connect or Warp 4. Mark From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 17 09:44:20 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 07:44:20 -0700 Subject: OS/2 Warp, was Re: PCjr Telnet Server Test - Done! In-Reply-To: <48D115FA.1050301@ptdprolog.net> References: <48CB1F56.8040903@brutman.com> , <200809151647.MAA05023@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> , <48D08E67.7010607@brutman.com> <48D0365F.12041.D30B518@cclist.sydex.com> <1221643442.12447.0.camel@kusanagi> <48D115FA.1050301@ptdprolog.net> Message-ID: At 10:36 AM -0400 9/17/08, madodel wrote: >There are usually a copy or 2 on eBay relatively cheap. But OS/2 >Warp had only dialup TCP support. For full TCP/IP stack you need >Warp Connect or Warp 4. I know Warp Connect only supports a *very* limited number of NIC's. Finding one that is supported was my biggest challenge, and I was pulling from a large pool of NIC's. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Wed Sep 17 09:58:17 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 14:58:17 +0000 Subject: OS/2 Warp, was Re: PCjr Telnet Server Test - Done! In-Reply-To: References: <48CB1F56.8040903@brutman.com> <200809151647.MAA05023@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <48D08E67.7010607@brutman.com> <48D0365F.12041.D30B518@cclist.sydex.com> <1221643442.12447.0.camel@kusanagi> <48D115FA.1050301@ptdprolog.net> Message-ID: <20080917145817.GB27694@usap.gov> On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 07:44:20AM -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 10:36 AM -0400 9/17/08, madodel wrote: > >There are usually a copy or 2 on eBay relatively cheap. But OS/2 > >Warp had only dialup TCP support. For full TCP/IP stack you need > >Warp Connect or Warp 4. I have a copy of Warp at home that I never got around to installing. IIRC, I got it in 1995 or 1996 as part of a big IBM giveaway, so whatever version would have been out around then is what I have. > I know Warp Connect only supports a *very* limited number of NIC's. > Finding one that is supported was my biggest challenge, and I was > pulling from a large pool of NIC's. Back when NIC weren't $10 each, I remember the easiest to work with (in terms of compatibility) were the NE2000 and clones (NE1000 for 8-bit machines), the WD (later SMC) 8013, and the 3C501, later displaced by the 3C509. Hopefully at least _one_ of those works with Warp Connect. Some of those even work on an Amiga with a GG2 Bus+ card (i.e., not the 3Com cards). Since about 1996, if I've reached for an ISA NIC for a PC, it's pretty much been a 3C509 - cheap, abundant, and they've worked with every OS I happen to have tried them on (mostly DOS, Windows, and various flavors of *IX) So what NIC _did_ you eventually go with? -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 17-Sep-2008 at 14:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -72.0 F (-57.8 C) Windchill -105.8 F (-76.5 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 9.0 kts Grid 9 Barometer 674.3 mb (10844 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Wed Sep 17 10:21:02 2008 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 11:21:02 -0400 Subject: OS/2 Warp, was Re: PCjr Telnet Server Test - Done! References: <48CB1F56.8040903@brutman.com> <200809151647.MAA05023@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <48D08E67.7010607@brutman.com> <48D0365F.12041.D30B518@cclist.sydex.com> <1221643442.12447.0.camel@kusanagi> <48D115FA.1050301@ptdprolog.net> <20080917145817.GB27694@usap.gov> Message-ID: <18641.8286.275784.301355@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Ethan" == Ethan Dicks writes: Ethan> Back when NIC weren't $10 each, I remember the easiest to work Ethan> with (in terms of compatibility) were the NE2000 and clones Ethan> (NE1000 for 8-bit machines), the WD (later SMC) 8013, and the Ethan> 3C501, later displaced by the 3C509. ... Something to keep in mind is that the 3C501 is an extremely bad design. It is completely incapable of dealing with back to back packets -- even just two of them. And of course that's a perfectly normal situation in any plausible network. I remember working on DECnet when these toys came around, and the request came in to have a "go slow" feature in DECnet to support this single buffered design. The answer, of course, was "NFW". (Slowing down at the source wouldn't have helped because the network could easily cause clumping anyway...) paul From rborsuk at colourfull.com Wed Sep 17 10:59:33 2008 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 11:59:33 -0400 Subject: Farallon appletalk Message-ID: <4E5417C2-4B70-4E50-B119-D04AE68D4305@colourfull.com> Hi, I have a Farallon Appletalk network concentrator with management functions. Free for the taking (port huron - Michigan) - will ship at cost (about 30 pounds). I need this gone yesterday. If there's no interest, into the trash it goes. Rob ps. Pic at http://homepage.mac.com/irisworld/craigs/appletalk.jpg Rob Borsuk email: rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations Web: http://www.colourfull.com From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Sep 17 11:08:40 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 09:08:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need H-89 serial port docs... Message-ID: I've got one of the three port H-89 serial boards and I think I've got the connector for port 330 wired incorrectly. The CD bit is never set even when carrier is present (cable and modem known good). Does anyone out there have the pinouts for the card-end of the internal RS-232 cable that I could get a copy of? Thanks! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From steve at radiorobots.com Wed Sep 17 11:15:27 2008 From: steve at radiorobots.com (steve stutman) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 12:15:27 -0400 Subject: Need H-89 serial port docs... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48D12D1F.2090404@radiorobots.com> Gene Buckle wrote: > I've got one of the three port H-89 serial boards and I think I've got > the connector for port 330 wired incorrectly. > > The CD bit is never set even when carrier is present (cable and modem > known good). Does anyone out there have the pinouts for the card-end > of the internal RS-232 cable that I could get a copy of? > > Thanks! > > g. > > Just got an H89 with some docs. Will look. Steve From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 17 11:51:07 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 09:51:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OS/2 Warp, was Re: PCjr Telnet Server Test - Done! In-Reply-To: <20080917145817.GB27694@usap.gov> Message-ID: <200809171651.m8HGp7bj003474@onyx.spiritone.com> > I have a copy of Warp at home that I never got around to installing. > IIRC, I got it in 1995 or 1996 as part of a big IBM giveaway, so > whatever version would have been out around then is what I have. In '95 I believe it would have been Warp 3, that's what I bought in early '95 for the P90 laptop I bought. I'm not sure when V4 came out, but I believe it was later. > So what NIC _did_ you eventually go with? > > -ethan I honestly don't remember, and the machine is currently stuck in the back of a storage unit. I mainly wanted to get OS/2 back up and running in order to run one game (I forget the name, it's a Master of Orion knock-off). I can't even remember if I got the game running, I think there was a problem with one of the floppies (it was one of about 3 pieces of commercial software I bought for OS/2). Zane From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 17 12:21:18 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 10:21:18 -0700 Subject: OS/2 Warp, was Re: PCjr Telnet Server Test - Done! In-Reply-To: <48D115FA.1050301@ptdprolog.net> References: <48CB1F56.8040903@brutman.com>, <1221643442.12447.0.camel@kusanagi>, <48D115FA.1050301@ptdprolog.net> Message-ID: <48D0DA1E.6635.FB05510@cclist.sydex.com> Gordon J. C. Pearce (MM3YEQ) wrote: > I'd give it a go if I could find a copy. Where can I get it? If you're just interested in tinkering, you can get an ISO of a LiveCD of Warp 4 here: http://www.ecomstation.com/demo.phtml I just tried it with an older HP P3 ePC box and it booted right up with network support without a hitch. Cheers, Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Sep 17 12:23:39 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 13:23:39 -0400 Subject: OS/2 Warp, was Re: PCjr Telnet Server Test - Done! In-Reply-To: References: <48CB1F56.8040903@brutman.com> , <200809151647.MAA05023@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> , <48D08E67.7010607@brutman.com> <48D0365F.12041.D30B518@cclist.sydex.com> <1221643442.12447.0.camel@kusanagi> <48D115FA.1050301@ptdprolog.net> Message-ID: <48D13D1B.4070000@gmail.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 10:36 AM -0400 9/17/08, madodel wrote: >> There are usually a copy or 2 on eBay relatively cheap. But OS/2 Warp >> had only dialup TCP support. For full TCP/IP stack you need Warp >> Connect or Warp 4. > > I know Warp Connect only supports a *very* limited number of NIC's. > Finding one that is supported was my biggest challenge, and I was > pulling from a large pool of NIC's. Warp 4 is a bit better in that regard. Peace... Sridhar From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 17 12:50:11 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 10:50:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OS/2 Warp, was Re: PCjr Telnet Server Test - Done! In-Reply-To: <48D13D1B.4070000@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200809171750.m8HHoC9R006458@onyx.spiritone.com> > Zane H. Healy wrote: > > At 10:36 AM -0400 9/17/08, madodel wrote: > >> There are usually a copy or 2 on eBay relatively cheap. But OS/2 Warp > >> had only dialup TCP support. For full TCP/IP stack you need Warp > >> Connect or Warp 4. > > > > I know Warp Connect only supports a *very* limited number of NIC's. > > Finding one that is supported was my biggest challenge, and I was > > pulling from a large pool of NIC's. > > Warp 4 is a bit better in that regard. > > Peace... Sridhar I don't doubt it, though I've never even seen V4, and mainly used V2 & V2.1. The thing everyone should remember is that when Warp 3 came out network cards in PC's still weren't that common. They weren't uncommon, but definitely not standard like they've become. Zane From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Sep 17 12:54:37 2008 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 10:54:37 -0700 Subject: OS/2 Warp, was Re: PCjr Telnet Server Test - Done! In-Reply-To: <200809171651.m8HGp7bj003474@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <20080917145817.GB27694@usap.gov> <200809171651.m8HGp7bj003474@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: > I honestly don't remember, and the machine is currently stuck in the back of > a storage unit. I mainly wanted to get OS/2 back up and running in order to > run one game (I forget the name, it's a Master of Orion knock-off). I assume you are talking about "Galactic Civilizations II." The company that made it still exists (Stardock), and has made newer verstions "Galactic Civilizations," "Galactic Civilizations: Altarian Conquest" and "Galactic Civilizations II", but you'll need Windows 2000 or later to run them. From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Wed Sep 17 13:06:34 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 18:06:34 +0000 Subject: OS/2 Warp, was Re: PCjr Telnet Server Test - Done! In-Reply-To: References: <20080917145817.GB27694@usap.gov> <200809171651.m8HGp7bj003474@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <20080917180634.GA10849@usap.gov> On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 10:54:37AM -0700, Eric J Korpela wrote: > > I honestly don't remember, and the machine is currently stuck in the back of > > a storage unit. I mainly wanted to get OS/2 back up and running in order to > > run one game (I forget the name, it's a Master of Orion knock-off). > > I assume you are talking about "Galactic Civilizations II." That's what I was thinking Zane was referring to. It was that exact game that was on my mind when I grabbed that free copy of Warp. Never did get it, though. > The company that made it still exists (Stardock), and has made newer > verstions "Galactic Civilizations," "Galactic Civilizations: Altarian > Conquest" and "Galactic Civilizations II", but you'll need Windows > 2000 or later to run them. Interesting. I'll have to track them down and see how the game looks these days. 10 years ago, it was pretty slick for a strategy game. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 17-Sep-2008 at 18:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -66.5 F (-54.7 C) Windchill -105.8 F (-76.5 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 14.1 kts Grid 35 Barometer 674.4 mb (10840 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Sep 17 14:12:29 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 15:12:29 -0400 Subject: HK ET-1000 Trainer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200809171512.29728.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 13 September 2008 16:33, Bob Latterman wrote: > Are you still looking for a ET-1000 trainer? > > I have one in very good condition. I was about to put it on ebay. > I sold my last one for about $45.00. > > Let me know if you are interested. Not interested, but idle curiosity -- what's the difference between that one and the ET-3400 that I have? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Sep 17 14:18:14 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 15:18:14 -0400 Subject: Otrona Attache power supply woes... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200809171518.14746.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 15 September 2008 17:08, Tony Duell wrote: > > The Attache's power supply is non-functional. I turn it on and get > > absolutely nothing out of it, not even the power supply fan is > > spinning. I've verified the power switch is working and that the little > > 220/110V "card" is flipped the correct way. Anyone have power supply > > schematics (I have logic board schematics)? Anyone seen similar > > problems with this machine? > > No, but assuming this is an SMPSU I've seen similar problems in other > machines. > > There are 2 main causes of an SMPSU being totally dead. Firstly a shorted > semiconductor (rectifier diode or chopper transistor) on the mains side > of the supply. This will, of course, blow the fuse -- I assume you've > checked that!. Occasionally a low-value series resistor fails too and > either the fuse holds, are a replacement fuse will hold. Typically the > owner replaces the fuse, sees it's still dead, and gives up. > > So start bu finding the chopper -- the large power transistor on the > primary side of the uspply -- and testing it. > > I asusme you've foudn the mains smoothing capacitors (normally a few > hundred uF at 200V each). _Carefully_ (you are dealing with live mains!) > measure the voltage across those with the machine on. Expect about 350V > across the 2 in series. > > The sceond cause is an open-circuit startup resistor. Start from the +ve > side of that mains smouthing capacitor pair and look for a high value > resistor (a few hundred k) from there to a point in the chopper circuit. > These resistors have a habit of failing open. Desolder it and test. I have had one supply fail, a small switcher in a VCR. Checking found a blown fuse and the one TO-220 cased transistor in there shorted. Replacing those with exact duplicates gave me another blown fuse and another shorted transistor. There were at that time kits available at rather reasonable prices which included a bunch of other stuff, diodes and caps mostly, and replacing all of the parts in the kit solved the problem. I'm still not sure quite what it was. Other supplies that I've dug into showed me blown power transistors or rectifiers, usually. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Sep 17 14:29:08 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 15:29:08 -0400 Subject: OS/2 Warp, was Re: PCjr Telnet Server Test - Done! In-Reply-To: <20080917145817.GB27694@usap.gov> References: <48CB1F56.8040903@brutman.com> <20080917145817.GB27694@usap.gov> Message-ID: <200809171529.08375.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 17 September 2008 10:58, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Back when NIC weren't $10 each, I remember the easiest to work with > (in terms of compatibility) were the NE2000 and clones (NE1000 for > 8-bit machines), the WD (later SMC) 8013, and the 3C501, later displaced > by the 3C509. Hopefully at least _one_ of those works with Warp > Connect. Some of those even work on an Amiga with a GG2 Bus+ card > (i.e., not the 3Com cards). I had a machine running that for a while and can say that the 3c509 does indeed work... > Since about 1996, if I've reached for an ISA NIC for a PC, it's > pretty much been a 3C509 - cheap, abundant, and they've worked > with every OS I happen to have tried them on (mostly DOS, Windows, > and various flavors of *IX) Yup! -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 17 15:26:10 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 21:26:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: substitute tube for DEC VR201? In-Reply-To: <20080916125321.GC2137@n0jcf.net> from "Chris Elmquist" at Sep 16, 8 07:53:21 am Message-ID: > > > Repair of the unit after the LCD was swapped in would be by replacing > > > the entire LCD subsystem. But-- I'm betting that if the LCD survives > > > > Assuming you could get one.... I can see you having the same problem as > > finding a replacement CRT now... > > Actually, there are a number of LCD "modules" that are good candidates. Yes, and 20 years ago there were many, many, CRTs that would have been good candidates as spares for the VR201. My thought is that in 20 years time it may be hard to find working LCD modules with TV-rate composite inputs. [...] > > > I think what I really need to do is just come to terms with looking > > > through the fog. The monitor works fine otherwise-- nice and bright > > > and no burn-in so the whole issue is strictly cosmetic. > > > > I've never tried to remove and re-bond a faceplate, but I've heard others > > have mamanged it. > > I've seen those efforts discussed. I think I'll pass on that operation > because it could truely be a destructive procedure. At least now, the Indeed. My worry would be that you'd crack the CRT envelope and let the vacuum out. I think I'd only try it if the CRT was completely unreadable otherwise (and it would be nice if I knew of a source of a replacement CRT and was only trying the rebonding procedure to save money.) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 17 15:31:51 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 21:31:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: Otrona Attache power supply woes... In-Reply-To: <48D0987A.3060202@msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Sep 16, 8 10:41:14 pm Message-ID: > > This is a relatively unconventional and repairer-friendly SMPSU! The chopper > > control circuitry is all on the output side of the isoaltion barrier and > > the startup supply comes from a little mains transformer and linear regulator. > > > > Start by checking for the +8V supply from U1 on the PSU mainboard. This, I > > suspect is present, it's the 8V you've seen on the op-amp. > > > Yep, 8V from U1. (well, 7.92V actually, I assume that's within > acceptable range?) That's fine. > > > Now check for the 5V reference voltage from pin 14 of U4 (the TL494). > > > Hmm, I get 6.75V (measuring from Pin 7 (gnd) to 14.) Ouch!. According to the TI datasheet I've just looked at, the reference should be between 4.75V and 5.25V. Either the TL494 is defective or soemthign else is pulling it up (which may have damaged the TL494 anyway). Or I suppose youre meter could be way out of calibration, but since the 8V line checks out I think that's less likely > > Now, I think that TL494 should be oscillating, at least at startup. See if > > you get anything on pin 8. A TL494 datasheet would be a useful thing to have! > > > 7.91V on pin 8. (I have a datasheet at That sounds as thouhg it's not oscillating and that the output transsitor is never turned on. > http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/tl494.pdf). I scoped it out, and pin > 5 is oscillating, a nice sawtooth. OK, the oscillator is running, but it's not driving the output stage. > > What voltage do you see on pin 3 (Comp) of this chip? That's the output of the > > error amplifier IIRC. It appears there's an overcurrent shutdown circuit > > connected there, maybe that's shutting it down. > > > 0.06V on pin 3. Well. if it's as low as that the outputs should certainly be oscillating. But shouldn't the protection circuit designed to shut the supply down if the 8V rail drops too low have operated at this point? It compares the 8V rail after 5 diode drops with the reference voltage, if the former is lower, then pin 3 is pulled high, shutting the supply down. So check pin 3 again... I am beginning to suspect that ther TL494 may have failed. It's not a difficult-to-get chip. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 17 15:44:20 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 21:44:20 +0100 (BST) Subject: Need H-89 serial port docs... In-Reply-To: from "Gene Buckle" at Sep 17, 8 09:08:40 am Message-ID: > > I've got one of the three port H-89 serial boards and I think I've got the > connector for port 330 wired incorrectly. > > The CD bit is never set even when carrier is present (cable and modem > known good). Does anyone out there have the pinouts for the card-end of > the internal RS-232 cable that I could get a copy of? According to my Z90 schematics (same machine AFAIK). the wriing for the intenal serial port cables is the same for all 3 ports -- the difference between DTE and DCE wiring is on the PCB. I'll specifically give the one for the DTE port at addresses 330-337 : P605 (PCB connector) DB25 5 ---- Rx Data --------3 9 ---- CTS ------------5 11 --- DSR ------------6 15 --- DCD ------------8 3 ---- Tx Data --------2 7 ---- RTS ------------4 14 --- DTR ------------20 13 --- Sig Gnd --------7 1 --- Prot Gnd --------1 According to the scheamtic, The DCD pin on the DTE connector goes to pin 15 on P605, then via L617 to section b (pin 4) of U609, a 1489 chip. The output of that (pin 6) goes to RLSD/ (pin 38) on U604, an 8250. -tony From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Sep 17 15:57:59 2008 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 20:57:59 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Ankh for Apple ][? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <609467.86376.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> I think I have it for the Spectrum, but that's no good for you though :( Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Wed, 17/9/08, Sellam Ismail wrote: Does anyone remember the game Ankh for the Apple ][ (and probably other platforms)? It can be considered a pre-cursor to these online puzzle games done in Flash that are prevalent all over the internets these days. From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 17 16:06:56 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 14:06:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OS/2 Warp, was Re: PCjr Telnet Server Test - Done! In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200809172106.m8HL6uTn015866@onyx.spiritone.com> > > I honestly don't remember, and the machine is currently stuck in the back of > > a storage unit. I mainly wanted to get OS/2 back up and running in order to > > run one game (I forget the name, it's a Master of Orion knock-off). > > I assume you are talking about "Galactic Civilizations II." The > company that made it still exists (Stardock), and has made newer > verstions "Galactic Civilizations," "Galactic Civilizations: Altarian > Conquest" and "Galactic Civilizations II", but you'll need Windows > 2000 or later to run them. Actually it was just the original "Galactic Civilizations". I think it was Galactic Civilizations II I bought for my Core 2 Duo/WinXP Pro game machine last year, but found it to be horribly buggy. :^( Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 17 16:09:18 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 14:09:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OS/2 Warp, was Re: PCjr Telnet Server Test - Done! In-Reply-To: <20080917180634.GA10849@usap.gov> Message-ID: <200809172109.m8HL9ISO015982@onyx.spiritone.com> > > The company that made it still exists (Stardock), and has made newer > > verstions "Galactic Civilizations," "Galactic Civilizations: Altarian > > Conquest" and "Galactic Civilizations II", but you'll need Windows > > 2000 or later to run them. > > Interesting. I'll have to track them down and see how the game looks > these days. 10 years ago, it was pretty slick for a strategy game. > > -ethan My favorite two games are still the Macintosh versions of the original "Master of Orion" and "Warlords II". Unlike the PC versions, the Mac versions aren't limited to 640x480. They'll go up to something like 1024x768 or maybe a bit larger (they won't go up to 1280x1024). Still "Galactic Civilisations" is a close third. Zane From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Sep 17 16:17:23 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 14:17:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need H-89 serial port docs... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> I've got one of the three port H-89 serial boards and I think I've got the >> connector for port 330 wired incorrectly. >> >> The CD bit is never set even when carrier is present (cable and modem >> known good). Does anyone out there have the pinouts for the card-end of >> the internal RS-232 cable that I could get a copy of? > > According to my Z90 schematics (same machine AFAIK). the wriing for the > intenal serial port cables is the same for all 3 ports -- the difference > between DTE and DCE wiring is on the PCB. I'll specifically give the one > for the DTE port at addresses 330-337 : > > P605 (PCB connector) DB25 > 5 ---- Rx Data --------3 > 9 ---- CTS ------------5 > 11 --- DSR ------------6 > 15 --- DCD ------------8 > 3 ---- Tx Data --------2 > 7 ---- RTS ------------4 > 14 --- DTR ------------20 > 13 --- Sig Gnd --------7 > 1 --- Prot Gnd --------1 > > According to the scheamtic, The DCD pin on the DTE connector goes to pin > 15 on P605, then via L617 to section b (pin 4) of U609, a 1489 chip. The > output of that (pin 6) goes to RLSD/ (pin 38) on U604, an 8250. > Fantastic! Thank you very much Tony! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Wed Sep 17 16:18:43 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 21:18:43 +0000 Subject: OS/2 Warp, was Re: PCjr Telnet Server Test - Done! In-Reply-To: <200809172109.m8HL9ISO015982@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <20080917180634.GA10849@usap.gov> <200809172109.m8HL9ISO015982@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <20080917211843.GA26070@usap.gov> On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 02:09:18PM -0700, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > > The company that made it still exists (Stardock), and has made newer > > > verstions "Galactic Civilizations," "Galactic Civilizations: Altarian > > > Conquest" and "Galactic Civilizations II", but you'll need Windows > > > 2000 or later to run them. > > > > Interesting. I'll have to track them down and see how the game looks > > these days. 10 years ago, it was pretty slick for a strategy game. > > My favorite two games are still the Macintosh versions of the original > "Master of Orion" and "Warlords II". Those are both excellent games. I just played a session of MoO I a few weeks ago, via DOSbox. > Unlike the PC versions, the Mac > versions aren't limited to 640x480. They'll go up to something like > 1024x768 or maybe a bit larger (they won't go up to 1280x1024). Hmm... never tried them on a Mac (always had the DOS versions at hand). Being able to exceed VGA resolution would be nice. > Still "Galactic Civilisations" is a close third. I do remember drooling over it (the original) when it was new. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 17-Sep-2008 at 21:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -60.0 F (-51.1 C) Windchill -96.7 F (-71.5 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 13.4 kts Grid 34 Barometer 675.5 mb (10798 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From madodel at ptdprolog.net Wed Sep 17 19:18:28 2008 From: madodel at ptdprolog.net (madodel) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 20:18:28 -0400 Subject: OS/2 Warp, was Re: PCjr Telnet Server Test - Done! In-Reply-To: References: <48CB1F56.8040903@brutman.com> , <200809151647.MAA05023@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> , <48D08E67.7010607@brutman.com> <48D0365F.12041.D30B518@cclist.sydex.com> <1221643442.12447.0.camel@kusanagi> <48D115FA.1050301@ptdprolog.net> Message-ID: <48D19E54.2000403@ptdprolog.net> Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 10:36 AM -0400 9/17/08, madodel wrote: >> There are usually a copy or 2 on eBay relatively cheap. But OS/2 Warp >> had only dialup TCP support. For full TCP/IP stack you need Warp >> Connect or Warp 4. > > I know Warp Connect only supports a *very* limited number of NIC's. > Finding one that is supported was my biggest challenge, and I was > pulling from a large pool of NIC's. > You should be able to use any newer drivers on Warp Connect, so while the selction may be limited on install, just about any NIC supported by OS/2 would work. Only exception is the GenMac driver which I think requires a 32bit TCP/IP stack which wasn't available until Warp 4. (GenMac is a generic wrapper allowing windoze network drivers to be used under OS/2 and eComStation). There use to be a lot on IBM's device driver depository site, but they closed that down when they stopped all public support for OS/2. A good source for OS/2 network (and for that matter any other) drivers freely available is http://www.os2site.com/sw/drivers/network/index.html Mark From wayne.smith at charter.net Wed Sep 17 23:52:56 2008 From: wayne.smith at charter.net (Wayne Smith) Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 21:52:56 -0700 Subject: Ankh for Apple ][? In-Reply-To: <200809171700.m8HH09pd015129@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20080918045745.HPMK3522.aarprv04.charter.net@WaynePC> Go to: ftp://ftp.apple.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/games/file_based/ And look for: ankh_crimewave_deathmaze5000_starmaze.dsk.gz Wayne Smith > Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 17:36:15 -0700 (PDT) > From: Sellam Ismail > Subject: Ankh for Apple ][? > To: Classic Computers Mailing List > Message-ID: > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > > > Does anyone remember the game Ankh for the Apple ][ (and > probably other platforms)? It can be considered a pre-cursor > to these online puzzle games done in Flash that are prevalent > all over the internets these days. > > Ankh had all these strange puzzles in a maze that you moved > around in, collecting parts and pieces that you would use in > other parts of the maze to open or close doors or boxes or whatever. > > I played it out for several hours one day but, my copy being > a pirated one, it was corrupted at some level and I could > never get past a certain point. > > Does anyone have a good copy of this game that I can > download? I sure would appreciate it as I'd like to finish > it and see what happens in the end. > > Thanks! > > -- > > Sellam Ismail Vintage > Computer Festival > -------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------------- > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade > Vintage Computers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] > From tonym at compusource.net Thu Sep 18 00:21:52 2008 From: tonym at compusource.net (tonym) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 05:21:52 GMT Subject: IBM 4Tb F50 "Shark" in Florida Message-ID: <200809180121386.SM00576@[63.69.23.239]> My company upgraded, and are getting rid of the older F50 we have. Unit has 4TB, and is the older "double-wide" 6' tall cabinets. Looking to get $1500 OBO for it. Anyone interested, let me know. It's spent it's entire life in a proper data center, and has already be decommissioned and removed from service, but has still been kept in the data center. Obviously, this would not be worth it for a person outside Florida. It is presently located in Miami,FL near the west end of the airport. It would need to be picked up, but we do have a proper loading dock, and freight elevators. We can assist with loading the unit. Thought maybe someone on the list may be interested, or know someone, to get a decent deal on a Shark. Tony From michaelgreen42 at comcast.net Thu Sep 18 12:59:04 2008 From: michaelgreen42 at comcast.net (Mike) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 10:59:04 -0700 Subject: IMSAI 8080 on eBay In-Reply-To: <200809181703.m8IH39gl038153@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200809181703.m8IH39gl038153@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <7CA2A42621B44381A42EB354A4390329@pal> I've decided to sell my IMSAI 8080. It is in excellent condition and comes with two Discus 8" floppy drives. It has been posted on eBay. http://cgi.ebay.com/IMSAI-8080-with-8-Floppy-Drives_W0QQitemZ120307050411QQc mdZViewItem?hash=item120307050411&_trkparms=72%3A1205|39%3A1|66%3A2|65%3A12| 240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14 From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Sep 18 13:13:39 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 11:13:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IMSAI 8080 on eBay In-Reply-To: <7CA2A42621B44381A42EB354A4390329@pal> References: <200809181703.m8IH39gl038153@dewey.classiccmp.org> <7CA2A42621B44381A42EB354A4390329@pal> Message-ID: On Thu, 18 Sep 2008, Mike wrote: > I've decided to sell my IMSAI 8080. It is in excellent condition and comes > with two Discus 8" floppy drives. It has been posted on eBay. > http://cgi.ebay.com/IMSAI-8080-with-8-Floppy-Drives_W0QQitemZ120307050411QQc > mdZViewItem?hash=item120307050411&_trkparms=72%3A1205|39%3A1|66%3A2|65%3A12| > 240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14 How many owners has this machine had? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Thu Sep 18 01:58:49 2008 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 08:58:49 +0200 Subject: OS/2 Warp, was Re: PCjr Telnet Server Test - Done! In-Reply-To: <200809171750.m8HHoC9R006458@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200809171750.m8HHoC9R006458@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <48D1FC29.7020803@iais.fraunhofer.de> Zane H. Healy schrieb: >> Zane H. Healy wrote: >>> At 10:36 AM -0400 9/17/08, madodel wrote: >>>> There are usually a copy or 2 on eBay relatively cheap. But OS/2 Warp >>>> had only dialup TCP support. For full TCP/IP stack you need Warp >>>> Connect or Warp 4. >>> I know Warp Connect only supports a *very* limited number of NIC's. >>> Finding one that is supported was my biggest challenge, and I was >>> pulling from a large pool of NIC's. >> Warp 4 is a bit better in that regard. >> >> Peace... Sridhar > > I don't doubt it, though I've never even seen V4, and mainly used V2 & V2.1. > The thing everyone should remember is that when Warp 3 came out network > cards in PC's still weren't that common. They weren't uncommon, but > definitely not standard like they've become. Provided the machine is not so old to have something like PCI, you can meanwhile use many modern ETH cards with OS/2. For 2.0 and 2.1, you need the separate TCP/IP product (including LAPS), and the normal ETH drivers for Warp Connect, Warp 4 and eComstation will usually still work. The mentioned "demo" version of Warp 4 can help to obtain the missing stuff. In the past when I worked on XFree86/OS2, I had more than once mixed drivers between different OS/2 versions - it was extremely compatible. -- Holger From derschjo at msu.edu Thu Sep 18 17:13:17 2008 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 15:13:17 -0700 Subject: Otrona Attache power supply woes... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48D2D27D.6050704@msu.edu> Tony Duell wrote: > > That's fine. > > >>> Now check for the 5V reference voltage from pin 14 of U4 (the TL494). >>> >>> >> Hmm, I get 6.75V (measuring from Pin 7 (gnd) to 14.) >> > > Ouch!. According to the TI datasheet I've just looked at, the reference > should be between 4.75V and 5.25V. Either the TL494 is defective or > soemthign else is pulling it up (which may have damaged the TL494 > anyway). Or I suppose youre meter could be way out of calibration, but > since the 8V line checks out I think that's less likely > > >>> Now, I think that TL494 should be oscillating, at least at startup. See if >>> you get anything on pin 8. A TL494 datasheet would be a useful thing to have! >>> >>> >> 7.91V on pin 8. (I have a datasheet at >> > > That sounds as thouhg it's not oscillating and that the output transsitor > is never turned on. > > >> http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/tl494.pdf). I scoped it out, and pin >> 5 is oscillating, a nice sawtooth. >> > > OK, the oscillator is running, but it's not driving the output stage. > > >>> What voltage do you see on pin 3 (Comp) of this chip? That's the output of the >>> error amplifier IIRC. It appears there's an overcurrent shutdown circuit >>> connected there, maybe that's shutting it down. >>> >>> >> 0.06V on pin 3. >> > > Well. if it's as low as that the outputs should certainly be oscillating. > > But shouldn't the protection circuit designed to shut the supply down if > the 8V rail drops too low have operated at this point? It compares the 8V > rail after 5 diode drops with the reference voltage, if the former is > lower, then pin 3 is pulled high, shutting the supply down. So check pin > 3 again... > > I am beginning to suspect that ther TL494 may have failed. It's not a > difficult-to-get chip. > I replaced the TL494 this afternoon (thanks to a local electronics store that actually has useful stuff!) but it does not appear to have made any difference. I get the same voltages on the TL494's pins as I did before. Any other thoughts? Thanks once again... Josh > -tony > > > > From dbuhs at innovioncorp.com Thu Sep 18 20:07:23 2008 From: dbuhs at innovioncorp.com (Dave Buhs) Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 18:07:23 -0700 Subject: What is a Smartnet Arnet card? Message-ID: Joe, Not sure how long ago you wrote about the arnet card, but I am looking for one. Dave From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Sep 19 09:21:18 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 07:21:18 -0700 Subject: Otrona Attache power supply woes... In-Reply-To: <48D2D27D.6050704@msu.edu> References: <48D2D27D.6050704@msu.edu> Message-ID: > From: derschjo at msu.edu >---snip--- >> > I replaced the TL494 this afternoon (thanks to a local electronics store > that actually has useful stuff!) but it does not appear to have made any > difference. I get the same voltages on the TL494's pins as I did > before. Any other thoughts? > > Thanks once again... > Josh Hi Josh Are you still getting the high voltage on the vref pin? I don't recall you mentioning the value of pin 4? The only place I can see that would cause vref to be pulled high is if D15 were shorted. Also, what is the voltage on pin 8? Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn ?10 hidden secrets? from Jamie. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008 From js at cimmeri.com Fri Sep 19 13:03:19 2008 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 13:03:19 -0500 Subject: IMSAI 8080 on eBay In-Reply-To: <200809191700.m8JH0oPB048836@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200809191700.m8JH0oPB048836@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <48D3E967.2020104@cimmeri.com> >From: "Mike" >Subject: IMSAI 8080 on eBay >To: >Message-ID: <7CA2A42621B44381A42EB354A4390329 at pal> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >I've decided to sell my IMSAI 8080. It is in excellent condition and comes >with two Discus 8" floppy drives. It has been posted on eBay. >http://cgi.ebay.com/IMSAI-8080-with-8-Floppy-Drives_W0QQitemZ120307050411QQc >mdZViewItem?hash=item120307050411&_trkparms=72%3A1205|39%3A1|66%3A2|65%3A12| >240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14 > For a big ticket item, that ad is really lacking in pics and information. From tosteve at yahoo.com Fri Sep 19 13:47:25 2008 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 11:47:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FREE - IBM 5103 dot-matrix printer, IBM 5114 dual-floppy drive. Message-ID: <360723.15543.qm@web51604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Ug, these things are huge. >From the days of the IBM 5110, the 5103 dot-matrix printer rollers are now gunk, and the 5114 8-inch dual floppy drive system weighs maybe 100 lbs. Come and take them away, please! Orange County, CA Bring a truck. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 19 16:16:32 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 22:16:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: Otrona Attache power supply woes... In-Reply-To: <48D2D27D.6050704@msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Sep 18, 8 03:13:17 pm Message-ID: > I replaced the TL494 this afternoon (thanks to a local electronics store > that actually has useful stuff!) but it does not appear to have made any > difference. I get the same voltages on the TL494's pins as I did > before. Any other thoughts? You mean that the reference voltage is still far too high? OK, the first thing to do is to check your voltmeter. I doubt that's the problem, but you can go round in circles if you're looking for a fault that's not there :-). I'd measure the +5V line in some of your (working) computers, if those read close-on 5V, then the meter is OK. Assuming you havea good voltmeter, nect remove the chopper PCB from the Otrona PSU (from the diagram this looks to be a separate unit). This will prvent the chopper sprinng into life when you're working on it, and even more importantly it'll mean the chopper (and other things) can't be damaged if one of your tests causes the controller IC to give it the wrong drive signal. Assuming Vref is still too high. desolder one end of each component connected to Vref -- IIRC that's the '+5R' signal on the scheamtic, power up and test the voltage on the Vref pin of the IC after each one is lifted. Once this goes back to normal (and you'd better hope it does), solder them all back _apart from the last thing you lifted_ and check that Vref is still reasonable. If so, then troubelshoot around the last part you removed. -tony From rickb at bensene.com Fri Sep 19 18:01:47 2008 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 16:01:47 -0700 Subject: PDP 8/E OS8 Boot Floppy and Diagnostics images? In-Reply-To: References: <48D2D27D.6050704@msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Sep 18, 8 03:13:17 pm Message-ID: Hello, I have a PDP8/e, with RX8E and a dual drive RX01 floppy subsystem. I have a bunch of unformatted 8" Single Density, Single-Sided, Soft-Sector floppies that will work with these drives. I also have a working PC04 paper tape reader/punch, and a console connection at 4800 baud (to a PC running either Windows or Linux). All of the hardware listed above has been tested using DEC diagnostics (loaded from paper tape), and all tests pass. What I'm looking for is a boot floppy(RX01) for OS8 V3D or better that will support this hardware configuration. The issue is this: If I can lay hands on a bootable floppy image, how can I make a real floppy from the image? Is there some kind of standalone tool that will take an image file from a PC, and send it over a serial port, and write the image out to a floppy via the RX8E? I'm looking for something kind of like VTSERVER for the PDP11, but written for the PDP8/e, and small enough to either toggle in from front panel (perhaps a few hundred words, I'm pretty patient), or be able to be punched to tape and loaded with the BIN loader? Also, is there anyone that has BIN-loader loadable paper tape images for the various diagnostics for the RK8E disk controller/RK05 disk drives? The system has an RK8E in it (along with the diode boot board for the RK8E/RK05), but there seems to be a problem, as when I try to boot from a known good RK05 pack with OS/8 on it, the machine hangs. I have a bunch of the DEC diagnostics on paper tape, and have run all of the ones that I have, but there's none for the RK8E/RK05. All of the other diagnostics (memory checkerboard, CPU tests, etc.) run with no errors. The system has 24K of memory, with 8K (2x4K boards) of core, and 16K of solid state memory. Also, I'd need documentation for said test programs in order to know how to run them. Thanks in advance for any help that the collective may have. Rick Bensene From g-wright at att.net Fri Sep 19 19:36:17 2008 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 00:36:17 +0000 Subject: IMSAI 8080 on eBay In-Reply-To: <48D3E967.2020104@cimmeri.com> References: <200809191700.m8JH0oPB048836@dewey.classiccmp.org> <48D3E967.2020104@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <092020080036.21149.48D44580000ECD4C0000529D22230647029B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> -------------- Original message from "js at cimmeri.com" : -------------- > > >From: "Mike" > >Subject: IMSAI 8080 on eBay > >To: > >Message-ID: <7CA2A42621B44381A42EB354A4390329 at pal> > >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > >I've decided to sell my IMSAI 8080. It is in excellent condition and comes > >with two Discus 8" floppy drives. It has been posted on eBay. > >http://cgi.ebay.com/IMSAI-8080-with-8-Floppy-Drives_W0QQitemZ120307050411QQc > >mdZViewItem?hash=item120307050411&_trkparms=72%3A1205|39%3A1|66%3A2|65%3A12| > >240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14 > > > For a big ticket item, that ad is really lacking in pics and information. Mike, is local to me and I have gotten a few systems from him. He could do better in his ad's. I have not seen this system, But he does have a lot of vintage and just interesting stuff. Send him E-mail and ask questions. - Jerry g-wright at att.net From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri Sep 19 19:54:03 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 17:54:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sources for unusual d-sub connectors? Message-ID: <451033.31493.qm@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Does anyone have a source for 19 pin d-sub connectors? The Apple II used these for disk drives. I haven't been able to find anyplace online that carries these. Any ideas? Similarly, what about 23 pin d-sub connectors (Commodore Amiga disk drive and video connectors)? -Ian From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Sep 19 20:03:55 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 19:03:55 -0600 Subject: Sources for unusual d-sub connectors? In-Reply-To: <451033.31493.qm@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <451033.31493.qm@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48D44BFB.8040602@jetnet.ab.ca> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Does anyone have a source for 19 pin d-sub connectors? The Apple II used these for disk drives. > > I haven't been able to find anyplace online that carries these. Any ideas? Similarly, what about 23 pin d-sub connectors (Commodore Amiga disk drive and video connectors)? > > -Ian > Try Newark. www.newark.com I found D-Shell RCA Jacks there. I do not expect to find those kind of jacks at your standard mail order place, so I am thinking IF THEY STILL MAKE THEM this is the place. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 19 22:32:08 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 20:32:08 -0700 Subject: Sources for unusual d-sub Message-ID: <48D40C48.23472.1C2C3D5D@cclist.sydex.com> On 19 Sep 2008 at 17:54, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Does anyone have a source for 19 pin d-sub connectors? The Apple II > used these for disk drives. Not that hard to find. Try these: http://www.electronicplus.com/content/ProductPage.asp?pagenum=2&lname= &maincat=CCo&subcat=CCo http://www.abra-electronics.com/products/catalog/D-Sub-Connectors- Solder-Type-p-4780.html http://www.ba-electronics.com/d-sub.htm JDR has the 19-pin D-sub sockets, but apparently no plugs. Cheers, Chuck From ak6dn at mindspring.com Fri Sep 19 23:46:58 2008 From: ak6dn at mindspring.com (Don North) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 21:46:58 -0700 Subject: PDP 8/E OS8 Boot Floppy and Diagnostics images? In-Reply-To: References: <48D2D27D.6050704@msu.edu> from "Josh Dersch" at Sep 18, 8 03:13:17 pm Message-ID: <48D48042.4050906@mindspring.com> Rick Bensene wrote: > Hello, > > I have a PDP8/e, with RX8E and a dual drive RX01 floppy subsystem. > I have a bunch of unformatted 8" Single Density, Single-Sided, > Soft-Sector floppies that will work with these drives. I also have a > working PC04 paper tape reader/punch, and a console connection at 4800 > baud (to a PC running either Windows or Linux). All of the hardware > listed above has been tested using DEC diagnostics (loaded from paper > tape), and all tests pass. > > What I'm looking for is a boot floppy(RX01) for OS8 V3D or better that > will support this hardware configuration. The issue is this: If I can > lay hands on a bootable floppy image, how can I make a real floppy from > the image? > Is there some kind of standalone tool that will take an image file from > a PC, and send it over a serial port, and write the image out to a > floppy via the RX8E? I'm looking for something kind of like VTSERVER > for the PDP11, but written for the PDP8/e, and small enough to either > toggle in from front panel (perhaps a few hundred words, I'm pretty > patient), or be able to be punched to tape and loaded with the BIN > loader? I'm in the same boat on this one. Working PDP-8m with EAE, 16K core, and an RX8E with a dual RX02 drive. But no working RX diagnostic tape images, altho I do have PDFs of the two diags DIRXA and DIRXB. Anybody knows where the BIN bits are that would be fantastic! I've run the RX02 on a PDP-11/44 and passed all the DEC PDP-11 diagnostics, so the drive itself seems very reliable (at least in PDP-11 mode). Only my RX8E has not been checked out, but it is so simple it is hard for it to not work :-). Also the same problem WRT OS8 images. The bits exist on unix systems, but no way to xfer them over to the -8m. I have written a bunch of standalone test diagnostic programs (memory, EAE) for the 8m that I download via a serial line (as a virtual 'slow speed' paper tape binloader. So unless someone can point to a PDP-8e/m variation of a 'vtserver' someday I might get around to writing a simple disk cloner (but don't hold your breath). > Also, is there anyone that has BIN-loader loadable paper tape images for > the various diagnostics for the RK8E disk controller/RK05 disk drives? > The system has an RK8E in it (along with the diode boot board for the > RK8E/RK05), but there seems to be a problem, as when I try to boot from > a known good RK05 pack with OS/8 on it, the machine hangs. I have a > bunch of the DEC diagnostics on paper tape, and have run all of the ones > that I have, but there's none for the RK8E/RK05. All of the other > diagnostics (memory checkerboard, CPU tests, etc.) run with no errors. > The system has 24K of memory, with 8K (2x4K boards) of core, and 16K of > solid state memory. > Also, I'd need documentation for said test programs in order to know how > to run them. Look at: http://www.bernhard-baehr.de/pdp8e/MAINDECs.html Besides having all the basic CPU, EAE, and memory diagnostics (both paper tape images and in most cases full hardcopy listings) there is a set of four RK8E tapes and listings. Probably just what you are looking for. I run all these diagnostics (plus a few home grown ones for EAE and memory) on my 8m routinely (once every 3 mos or so, just like a 'real' DEC F/S guy :-)) > Thanks in advance for any help that the collective may have. > > Rick Bensene Don North From chrise at pobox.com Fri Sep 19 07:27:24 2008 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 07:27:24 -0500 Subject: What is a Smartnet Arnet card? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080919122724.GQ2137@n0jcf.net> On Thursday (09/18/2008 at 06:07PM -0700), Dave Buhs wrote: > Joe, > > Not sure how long ago you wrote about the arnet card, but I am looking > for one. "arnet" or "arcnet"? Arnet was a company that built multiport serial cards... and was later acquired by Digiboard and is known today as Digi International. http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D0CE5D91330F936A25752C0A967958260 and Arcnet was a 2.5Mbps token passing networking scheme (coax or twisted pair) that was popular in the mid to late 80's. There were numerous vendors of arcnet product and I think SMC was one of the bigger ones. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARCNET Chris -- Chris Elmquist mailto:chrise at pobox.com From chapin6252 at roadrunner.com Fri Sep 19 19:17:39 2008 From: chapin6252 at roadrunner.com (Charles Chapin) Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 20:17:39 -0400 Subject: MC789P Message-ID: <002801c91ab6$4aa9c5a0$1439cd45@charlie8a5adb2> I have a MC789P, never been used. Some one was looking for one. Don't remember why I got it. Charlie Chapin From ats at offog.org Sat Sep 20 04:06:13 2008 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 10:06:13 +0100 Subject: Sources for unusual d-sub connectors? In-Reply-To: <451033.31493.qm@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> (Ian Primus's message of "Fri\, 19 Sep 2008 17\:54\:03 -0700 \(PDT\)") References: <451033.31493.qm@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Mr Ian Primus writes: > Similarly, what about 23 pin d-sub connectors (Commodore Amiga disk > drive and video connectors)? CPC sell them in the UK -- search for "23way d type". I've also used cut-down 25-way connectors in the past with some success... -- Adam Sampson From halarewich at gmail.com Sat Sep 20 05:47:51 2008 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 03:47:51 -0700 Subject: Sources for unusual d-sub connectors? In-Reply-To: <48D44BFB.8040602@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <451033.31493.qm@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <48D44BFB.8040602@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <6d6501090809200347qefad1bcvaae692206dd4850e@mail.gmail.com> http://www.abra-electronics.com/products/catalog/D-Sub-Connectors-Solder-Type-p-4780.html On 9/19/08, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > > Mr Ian Primus wrote: > >> Does anyone have a source for 19 pin d-sub connectors? The Apple II used >> these for disk drives. >> >> I haven't been able to find anyplace online that carries these. Any ideas? >> Similarly, what about 23 pin d-sub connectors (Commodore Amiga disk drive >> and video connectors)? >> >> -Ian >> >> > Try Newark. www.newark.com > I found D-Shell RCA Jacks there. I do not expect to find those kind of > jacks > at your standard mail order place, so I am thinking IF THEY STILL MAKE THEM > this is the place. > > From michaelgreen42 at comcast.net Sat Sep 20 12:48:51 2008 From: michaelgreen42 at comcast.net (Mike) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 10:48:51 -0700 Subject: IMSAI 8080 on eBay In-Reply-To: <200809201701.m8KH0lPD059611@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200809201701.m8KH0lPD059611@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: You are probably right. Its not like I'm trying to hide anything but I really don't know much about these. Other than the fact that it powers up that's about it. Picked it up local with the idea of "wow IMSAI" but realized it's a bit out of my realm of interest, I'll never actually use it, and I need the money to go to school this Fall. I'm more than happy to answer any questions anyone has though. -------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 13:03:19 -0500 From: "js at cimmeri.com" Subject: re: IMSAI 8080 on eBay To: cctech at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <48D3E967.2020104 at cimmeri.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed >From: "Mike" >Subject: IMSAI 8080 on eBay >To: >Message-ID: <7CA2A42621B44381A42EB354A4390329 at pal> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >I've decided to sell my IMSAI 8080. It is in excellent condition and comes >with two Discus 8" floppy drives. It has been posted on eBay. >http://cgi.ebay.com/IMSAI-8080-with-8-Floppy-Drives_W0QQitemZ120307050411QQ c >mdZViewItem?hash=item120307050411&_trkparms=72%3A1205|39%3A1|66%3A2|65%3A12 | >240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14 > For a big ticket item, that ad is really lacking in pics and information. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Sep 20 16:11:44 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 14:11:44 -0700 Subject: Otrona Attache power supply woes... In-Reply-To: <48D2D27D.6050704@msu.edu> References: <48D2D27D.6050704@msu.edu> Message-ID: > I replaced the TL494 this afternoon (thanks to a local electronics store > that actually has useful stuff!) but it does not appear to have made any > difference. I get the same voltages on the TL494's pins as I did > before. Any other thoughts? > > Thanks once again... > Josh Hi Josh Can you take some more voltage readings. It would be good to see Pin 4 and Pin 9 of U4. In fact, it would be good to see a repeat of all the pins of U4 again. Can you also take readings of the pins on U5 as well. This will help quite a bit on trying to understand what is causing the failure. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn ?10 hidden secrets? from Jamie. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008 From djg at pdp8.net Sat Sep 20 19:14:26 2008 From: djg at pdp8.net (djg at pdp8.net) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 20:14:26 -0400 Subject: PDP 8/E OS8 Boot Floppy and Diagnostics images? Message-ID: <200809210014.m8L0EQl21114@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> You can dump and restore RX01 and RK05 images over the console port with my dump/restore programs http://www.pdp8online.com/ftp/software/dumprest/ For diagnostic images a good collection is at http://pdp12.org/pdp-common/reference/papertapes/maindec.html Also any of the .SV or .DG files at http://www.pdp8online.com/images/index.shtml can be converted back to BIN file to load with bin loader, click on the file name and select convert to BIN loader format. Use the search to find the image with the correct file. I have some I have converted for my testing here (dhrkch, dhrkae, dhrkbg) http://www.pdp8online.com/ftp/images/paper_tape/ Writeups for the maindecs at http://www.pdp8online.com/query_docs/query.shtml The images from the online archive above plus some non os/8 that can't be displayed online are also available from http://www.pdp8online.com/ftp/images/ I think some of the OS/8 RX01's will work fine for you. Not positive which have the paper tape reader driver. You can check with resorc and either my online 8/E or simh if you want to verify before restoring an image. If your rk05's have interesting stuff not on the online images I would like to get a image. From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Sep 20 20:14:38 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 18:14:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: a new BBS... In-Reply-To: <200809210014.m8L0EQl21114@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> References: <200809210014.m8L0EQl21114@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> Message-ID: Yes, you read that subject line correctly. No need to adjust your bifocals. :) I'd like to let you folks know about a new BBS I just put online. The Old Data Citadel, 253-875-1281. The system is an H-89 running CP/M 2.2 and Citadel v2.10 with a Hayes Smartmodem 300. Blow the dust off those modems and give 'er a ring. For those that don't know, Citadel is the progenitor of all room systems that came after, such as Stonehenge, Dragcit, IronHenge, Citadel-86, etc. The version of Citadel I'm running was the first public release and was actually written on an H-89 which is why I chose that system for the host platform. Many thanks to Tony for providing the information I needed to chase down the wiring error I had in the machine. Thanks all! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Sep 21 01:45:19 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 23:45:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: a new BBS... In-Reply-To: References: <200809210014.m8L0EQl21114@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Sep 2008, Gene Buckle wrote: > Yes, you read that subject line correctly. No need to adjust your > bifocals. :) > > I'd like to let you folks know about a new BBS I just put online. > > The Old Data Citadel, 253-875-1281. > > The system is an H-89 running CP/M 2.2 and Citadel v2.10 with a Hayes > Smartmodem 300. Blow the dust off those modems and give 'er a ring. > > For those that don't know, Citadel is the progenitor of all room systems > that came after, such as Stonehenge, Dragcit, IronHenge, Citadel-86, etc. > > The version of Citadel I'm running was the first public release and was > actually written on an H-89 which is why I chose that system for the host > platform. > > Many thanks to Tony for providing the information I needed to chase down > the wiring error I had in the machine. Now as soon as I can figure out how to do POTS modem dialing through a cell phone, I'll call. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Sep 21 02:15:07 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 00:15:07 -0700 Subject: a new BBS... In-Reply-To: References: <200809210014.m8L0EQl21114@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> Message-ID: At 11:45 PM -0700 9/20/08, David Griffith wrote: >Now as soon as I can figure out how to do POTS modem dialing through a >cell phone, I'll call. How much longer will old fashioned modems continue to work with the evolving phone systems that we have? When it was looking like I'd be forced to move to Verizon FIOS a couple weeks ago, I made inquiries and learned that if you have FIOS you can not use a modem. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun Sep 21 02:38:19 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 08:38:19 +0100 Subject: a new BBS... In-Reply-To: References: <200809210014.m8L0EQl21114@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> Message-ID: <48D5F9EB.3020904@gjcp.net> David Griffith wrote: > Now as soon as I can figure out how to do POTS modem dialing through a > cell phone, I'll call. Have a look in the AT command spec. IIRC just sending ATD should set up a call as an ISDN call. I'm *fairly* sure you can dial ordinary dialup modems with them, but I haven't got one (landline/dialup modem pair) to play. Gordon From steerex at ccvn.com Sat Sep 20 18:00:26 2008 From: steerex at ccvn.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 19:00:26 -0400 Subject: What is a Smartnet Arnet card? In-Reply-To: <20080919122724.GQ2137@n0jcf.net> References: <20080919122724.GQ2137@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <1221951626.14818.4.camel@bart> On Fri, 2008-09-19 at 07:27 -0500, Chris Elmquist wrote: > On Thursday (09/18/2008 at 06:07PM -0700), Dave Buhs wrote: > > Joe, > > > > Not sure how long ago you wrote about the arnet card, but I am looking > > for one. I have an "Arnet" (serial card), terminal interface, and cable that I'd be willing to part with. I don't have any software but am of the impression that drivers are not difficult to come by. I'm in western North Carolina. Make me a reasonable offer. -- Steve Robertson steerex [at] ccvn [dot] com From derschjo at msu.edu Sun Sep 21 00:47:03 2008 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 20 Sep 2008 22:47:03 -0700 Subject: Otrona Attache power supply woes... In-Reply-To: References: <48D2D27D.6050704@msu.edu> Message-ID: <48D5DFD7.8000402@msu.edu> dwight elvey wrote: > Hi Josh > Can you take some more voltage readings. > It would be good to see Pin 4 and Pin 9 of U4. In fact, it would > be good to see a repeat of all the pins of U4 again. > Can you also take readings of the pins on U5 as well. > This will help quite a bit on trying to understand what > is causing the failure. > Dwight > > Sure. U4: 1 - 0V 2 - 2.40V 3 - 0V 4 - 0V 5 - oscillating 8 - 7.91V 9 - 4.43V 10 - 2.5V 11 - 6.70V 12 - 7.92V 13 - 5.03V 14 - 5.0V 15 - 5.0V U5: 1 - 6.31V 2 - 0V 3 - 2.15V 4 - 7.92V 5 - 5.05V 6 - 0V 7 - 6.61V 8 - 0V 9 - 0V 10 - 0V 12 - 0V 13 - 0V 14 - 0V Actually, these values look better than they did before, I guess I was mistaken in my earlier response. I'm still getting nothing at the power supply outputs, however. Any ideas? Thanks, Josh From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Sep 21 03:48:49 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 01:48:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: a new BBS... In-Reply-To: <48D5F9EB.3020904@gjcp.net> References: <200809210014.m8L0EQl21114@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> <48D5F9EB.3020904@gjcp.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Sep 2008, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > David Griffith wrote: > > > Now as soon as I can figure out how to do POTS modem dialing through a > > cell phone, I'll call. > > Have a look in the AT command spec. IIRC just sending ATD > should set up a call as an ISDN call. I'm *fairly* sure you can dial > ordinary dialup modems with them, but I haven't got one (landline/dialup > modem pair) to play. Someone used to market a gizmo that when plugged into a regular cell phone would present a seemingly genuine POTS line. That's partially what I'm after. The other solution could be to use a Port-O-Rotary and an accoustic coupler. I plan to do this anyhow with my PT-210 terminal when I can justify spending the money for the phone. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sun Sep 21 04:02:44 2008 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 04:02:44 -0500 Subject: Apollo Guidance Computer Message-ID: There is the ocasional homebuilt, TTL CPU thread on here. I wanted to make known this guy, John Plutorak, who reproduced the guidance computer in his basement: http://klabs.org/history/build_agc/ Awsome project, take a look. I intend to build one too... Randy Dawson _________________________________________________________________ Get more out of the Web. Learn 10 hidden secrets of Windows Live. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008 From schwepes at moog.netaxs.com Sun Sep 21 07:18:39 2008 From: schwepes at moog.netaxs.com (Bob Schwier) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 08:18:39 -0400 Subject: a new BBS... In-Reply-To: <48D5F9EB.3020904@gjcp.net> References: <200809210014.m8L0EQl21114@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> <48D5F9EB.3020904@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <1221999519.48d63b9f0d8b1@webmail.uslec.net> Quoting Gordon JC Pearce : > David Griffith wrote: > > > Now as soon as I can figure out how to do POTS modem dialing through a > > cell phone, I'll call. > > Have a look in the AT command spec. IIRC just sending ATD > should set up a call as an ISDN call. I'm *fairly* sure you can dial > ordinary dialup modems with them, but I haven't got one (landline/dialup > modem pair) to play. > > Gordon > > I remember that you had to set byte size, usualy 8, check bit and one or two other items manually in the program to handshake properly. What are the settings in that regard for your BBS? bs From ragooman at comcast.net Sun Sep 21 08:51:11 2008 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 09:51:11 -0400 Subject: Apollo Guidance Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48D6514F.5010002@comcast.net> Randy Dawson wrote: > There is the ocasional homebuilt, TTL CPU thread on here. I wanted to make known this guy, John Plutorak, who reproduced the guidance computer in his basement: > > http://klabs.org/history/build_agc/ > > Awsome project, take a look. I intend to build one too... > I've seen this before and it's very interesting. Here's a piece of trivia I picked up while researching material for my last project at VCF east about Floating Point Math. I talked with Frank O'Brian, the caretaker of the Apollo Guidance Computer exhibit at InfoAge in NJ about this subject. He provided this tidbit of info that I thought I could share here. While looking at the original code listings for this computer, (at the exhibit) it's quite amazing how they accomplished all this math within such a constrained environment given the technology of it's day. I feel this would make some people scratch their heads :) What type of arithmetic operations were used to perform all the calculations on the Apollo Guidance Computer ? a) Floating Point arithmetic operations b) Fixed Point Arithmetic operations c) Integer Arithmetic operations d) Slide Rule Arithmetic operations e) all of the above =Dan [ Pittsburgh 250th --- http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] From steve at radiorobots.com Sun Sep 21 09:21:41 2008 From: steve at radiorobots.com (steve stutman) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 10:21:41 -0400 Subject: Apollo Guidance Computer In-Reply-To: <48D6514F.5010002@comcast.net> References: <48D6514F.5010002@comcast.net> Message-ID: <48D65875.80802@radiorobots.com> I think a lot of this was done at Draper Lab, part of MIT then. One person who worked on the code you are interested in was Richard Warren. Steve Dan wrote: > > > Randy Dawson wrote: >> There is the ocasional homebuilt, TTL CPU thread on here. I wanted >> to make known this guy, John Plutorak, who reproduced the guidance >> computer in his basement: >> >> http://klabs.org/history/build_agc/ >> >> Awsome project, take a look. I intend to build one too... >> > I've seen this before and it's very interesting. > > Here's a piece of trivia I picked up while researching material for my > last project at VCF east about Floating Point Math. I talked with > Frank O'Brian, the caretaker of the Apollo Guidance Computer exhibit > at InfoAge in NJ about this subject. He provided this tidbit of info > that I thought I could share here. While looking at the original code > listings for this computer, (at the exhibit) it's quite amazing how > they accomplished all this math within such a constrained environment > given the technology of it's day. I feel this would make some people > scratch their heads :) > > What type of arithmetic operations were used to perform all the > calculations on the Apollo Guidance Computer ? > a) Floating Point arithmetic operations > b) Fixed Point Arithmetic operations > c) Integer Arithmetic operations > d) Slide Rule Arithmetic operations > e) all of the above > > > > =Dan > > [ Pittsburgh 250th --- http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] > From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Sun Sep 21 10:18:55 2008 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 11:18:55 -0400 Subject: a new BBS... In-Reply-To: <48D5F9EB.3020904@gjcp.net> References: <200809210014.m8L0EQl21114@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> <48D5F9EB.3020904@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <4affc5e0809210818s5cd1312bvb2b97db7d5ace4a4@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 3:38 AM, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > David Griffith wrote: > >> Now as soon as I can figure out how to do POTS modem dialing through a >> cell phone, I'll call. > > Have a look in the AT command spec. IIRC just sending ATD > should set up a call as an ISDN call. I'm *fairly* sure you can dial > ordinary dialup modems with them, but I haven't got one (landline/dialup > modem pair) to play. Depends on carrier. IIRC (someone feel free to correct me), most modern phones that have serial USB or Bluetooth profiles (most Nokias and Motorolas do) support CSD (Circuit Switched Data), so serial data is not voice-band modulated at the phone, but sent to the carrier digitally, then modulated at their switch. Unfortunately many carriers have disabled this. They would much rather have you use the IP data link you phone is likely to give you. (Not sure why - these days it would mean more revenue for them. For me though it would be cheaper: I pay .20c/min for voice, but 5c/kB data on prepaid. So at 9600bps CSD is cheaper) I think it's simply too much hassle to maintain it for very limited (that is, almost none) customer demand. Hooking an analog modem to a (digital) cellphone is very unlikely to work, the voice codec will mess up the data in very nonlinear ways that modems were never designed for. A simple QPSK low-baud signal might make it, but anything that negotiates for channel conditions beforehand will have error rates that the codes can't deal with. 300bps could probably work, 1200 maaaaaaybe. 2400 I would find very surprising. GSM might get better results than CDMA due to noise suppression that is mandatory in the latter. If you still have a TDMA phone and analog service, you're better off, but those towers are being switched off already. If you're willing to do some custom protocol hackery, all phones recognize DTMF :-) and transmit it as side data; however baud rate (key rate) would be quite slow (due to DTMF specs) and you'd only get about 3.5 bits/symbol. So if you want classic computers to communicate, you need to connect to classic telephony equipment. I don't see this as a bad thing, just the passage of time. Joe. (Anyone else ever had the ability to whistle 1200 bps fax initiators??? Probably the least useful thing I learned at an Ottawa telecom equipment company... no not THAT one... the OTHER one that went bust :-) From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sun Sep 21 11:43:59 2008 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 10:43:59 -0600 Subject: a new BBS... In-Reply-To: References: <200809210014.m8L0EQl21114@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> Message-ID: <48D679CF.5020307@brutman.com> I'm impressed and I want to check out out. But after a few moments of thought, I realized that no personal machine that I own has a modem on it or in it anymore. Then I remembered that my work laptop has an integrated modem, but I can't remember the last time I used it. Even when I did up a modem I'm going to have to arrange long distance service for my land line again. I dropped it when cell phones invaded the house. Wow .. from being a BBS junkie in the mid 1980s to not being able to dial one now. I'm going to have to get some prepaid long distance cards to start my habit again. ;-0 Mike Gene Buckle wrote: > Yes, you read that subject line correctly. No need to adjust your > bifocals. :) > > I'd like to let you folks know about a new BBS I just put online. > > The Old Data Citadel, 253-875-1281. > > The system is an H-89 running CP/M 2.2 and Citadel v2.10 with a Hayes > Smartmodem 300. Blow the dust off those modems and give 'er a ring. > > For those that don't know, Citadel is the progenitor of all room systems > that came after, such as Stonehenge, Dragcit, IronHenge, Citadel-86, etc. > > The version of Citadel I'm running was the first public release and was > actually written on an H-89 which is why I chose that system for the > host platform. > > Many thanks to Tony for providing the information I needed to chase down > the wiring error I had in the machine. > > Thanks all! > > g. > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Sep 21 10:47:37 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 08:47:37 -0700 Subject: Otrona Attache power supply woes... In-Reply-To: <48D5DFD7.8000402@msu.edu> References: <48D2D27D.6050704@msu.edu> <48D5DFD7.8000402@msu.edu> Message-ID: > From: derschjo at msu.edu > To: > Subject: Re: Otrona Attache power supply woes... > > > > dwight elvey wrote: >> Hi Josh >> Can you take some more voltage readings. >> It would be good to see Pin 4 and Pin 9 of U4. In fact, it would >> be good to see a repeat of all the pins of U4 again. >> Can you also take readings of the pins on U5 as well. >> This will help quite a bit on trying to understand what >> is causing the failure. >> Dwight >> >> > Sure. > > U4: > 1 - 0V > 2 - 2.40V > 3 - 0V > 4 - 0V > 5 - oscillating > 8 - 7.91V > 9 - 4.43V Hi Josh Getting closer. Pin 9 should be almost zero. The two transistors ( Q17, Q18 ) form a latch. Normally this latch is not tripped and Q17 is on while Q18 is off. Two sources of signals can trip the latch. One is an over voltage on the 5 volt line and the other is an over current in the switcher transistor. The over current is detected by the optical coupler ( D1 in the switcher board ). All the levels on U5 look as expected under the current conditions. There are a number of possible reasons that the Q17,Q18 latch has fired. Not all are normal operation of this circuit. 1. D18 may be shorted and any voltage on the output trips it 2. Replacing the bad U4 has caused the voltage adjustment to be too high, causing the circuit to trip. 3. Q18 may be shorted. 4. Q17 may be open. 5. Something else We know that U4 was bad so it may have been the only bad part. This makes #2 a likely possibility. Try adjusting the pot R39 such that the wiper is closest to R38 ( maximum resistance ). Cycle the power switch. Normally I wouldn't suggest adjusting any pots in a non-working circuit but this one should be harmless. Don't worry about remembering the location on this pot as it would have needed some adjustment anyway, with the replacement of U4. Do not fiddle with any of the other adjustments! Dwight > 10 - 2.5V > 11 - 6.70V > 12 - 7.92V > 13 - 5.03V > 14 - 5.0V > 15 - 5.0V > > U5: > 1 - 6.31V > 2 - 0V > 3 - 2.15V > 4 - 7.92V > 5 - 5.05V > 6 - 0V > 7 - 6.61V > 8 - 0V > 9 - 0V > 10 - 0V > 12 - 0V > 13 - 0V > 14 - 0V > > Actually, these values look better than they did before, I guess I was > mistaken in my earlier response. I'm still getting nothing at the power > supply outputs, however. Any ideas? > > Thanks, > Josh _________________________________________________________________ See how Windows Mobile brings your life together?at home, work, or on the go. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/msnnkwxp1020093182mrt/direct/01/ From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 21 10:55:38 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 08:55:38 -0700 Subject: Apollo Guidance Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48D60C0A.29484.23FB46C3@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Sep 2008 at 4:02, Randy Dawson wrote: > There is the ocasional homebuilt, TTL CPU thread on here. I wanted to > make known this guy, John Plutorak, who reproduced the guidance > computer in his basement: > > http://klabs.org/history/build_agc/ > > Awsome project, take a look. I intend to build one too... I looked at a couple of documents, fully expecting to see ROM-on-a- rope and noticed that the implementation was (mostly) SSI/MSI TTL. You could probably simplify things in terms of construction tremendously by using FPGA or CPLD methods. The result should be no more or less accurate to the original than the TTL version. Cheers, Chuck From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Sep 21 11:31:23 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 09:31:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: a new BBS... In-Reply-To: References: <200809210014.m8L0EQl21114@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> Message-ID: > At 11:45 PM -0700 9/20/08, David Griffith wrote: >> Now as soon as I can figure out how to do POTS modem dialing through a >> cell phone, I'll call. > > How much longer will old fashioned modems continue to work with the evolving > phone systems that we have? When it was looking like I'd be forced to move > to Verizon FIOS a couple weeks ago, I made inquiries and learned that if you > have FIOS you can not use a modem. > It's my understanding that Verizon cuts your POTS copper and THAT is why you can't use a modem. :) They may also be "compressing" the analog signal on whatever device they give you to allow you to continue to use your old POTS gear. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Sep 21 11:34:49 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 09:34:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: a new BBS... In-Reply-To: <1221999519.48d63b9f0d8b1@webmail.uslec.net> References: <200809210014.m8L0EQl21114@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> <48D5F9EB.3020904@gjcp.net> <1221999519.48d63b9f0d8b1@webmail.uslec.net> Message-ID: > I remember that you had to set byte size, usualy 8, check bit and one or > two other items manually in the program to handshake properly. What are > the settings in that regard for your BBS? > bs The system is configured for 300 baud, 8 bits, 1 stop and no parity. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Sep 21 11:42:58 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 10:42:58 -0600 Subject: Apollo Guidance Computer In-Reply-To: <48D60C0A.29484.23FB46C3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <48D60C0A.29484.23FB46C3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <48D67992.7070402@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I looked at a couple of documents, fully expecting to see ROM-on-a- > rope and noticed that the implementation was (mostly) SSI/MSI TTL. > You could probably simplify things in terms of construction > tremendously by using FPGA or CPLD methods. The result should be no > more or less accurate to the original than the TTL version. > > But that is what made it special - the components at the time. They have 3 input NOR's in tiny logic, so do smaller PCB's if you want a smaller system. :) > Cheers, > Chuck > > From ragooman at comcast.net Sun Sep 21 11:46:49 2008 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 12:46:49 -0400 Subject: Apollo Guidance Computer In-Reply-To: <48D60C0A.29484.23FB46C3@cclist.sydex.com> References: <48D60C0A.29484.23FB46C3@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <48D67A79.4040408@comcast.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 21 Sep 2008 at 4:02, Randy Dawson wrote: > > >> There is the ocasional homebuilt, TTL CPU thread on here. I wanted to >> make known this guy, John Plutorak, who reproduced the guidance >> computer in his basement: >> >> http://klabs.org/history/build_agc/ >> >> Awsome project, take a look. I intend to build one too... >> > > I looked at a couple of documents, fully expecting to see ROM-on-a- > rope and noticed that the implementation was (mostly) SSI/MSI TTL. > You could probably simplify things in terms of construction > tremendously by using FPGA or CPLD methods. The result should be no > more or less accurate to the original than the TTL version Yes, but I think part of this hobby is also having some level of authenticity. Although many of the original parts can't be available, some level of hardware consistency is maintained. Another group redesigned the ENIAC into a FPGA chip. Part of an engineer's job is to design within constraints, you lose that when using advanced technology. Eliminating this factor when trying to replicate a system is making it too easy. You can also say writing an emulator is a form of a reproduction. Since it's still running on hardware but with a different level of programming, versus say, Verilog/Vhdl/C Besides what fun is for all to stand around the table and look down on one lonely FPGA chip ? just my 2cents(melted down to 5cents of copper) =Dan -- [ Pittsburgh 250th --- http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 21 12:31:23 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 18:31:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: a new BBS... In-Reply-To: from "Gene Buckle" at Sep 20, 8 06:14:38 pm Message-ID: > Many thanks to Tony for providing the information I needed to chase down > the wiring error I had in the machine. Don't keep me in suspense, what was the problem? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 21 12:48:54 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 18:48:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: Otrona Attache power supply woes... In-Reply-To: from "dwight elvey" at Sep 21, 8 08:47:37 am Message-ID: > > Sure. > > > > U4: > > 1 - 0V > > 2 - 2.40V > > 3 - 0V > > 4 - 0V > > 5 - oscillating > > 8 - 7.91V > > > 9 - 4.43V > > Hi Josh At least the refernce voltage is more reasonable now :-). That old TL494 was almost certainly defective. > Getting closer. Pin 9 should be almost zero. The two transistors ( Q17, = > Q18 ) > form a latch. Normally this latch is not tripped and Q17 is on while Q18 = > is off. > Two sources of signals can trip the latch. One is an over voltage on the = > 5 volt line > and the other is an over current in the switcher transistor. The over cur= > rent is detected > by the optical coupler ( D1 in the switcher board ). > All the levels on U5 look as expected under the current conditions. > There are a number of possible reasons that the Q17,Q18 latch has fired.= > Not > all are normal operation of this circuit. > 1. D18 may be shorted and any voltage on the output trips it > 2. Replacing the bad U4 has caused the voltage adjustment to be too high, > causing the circuit to trip. > 3. Q18 may be shorted. > 4. Q17 may be open. > 5. Something else How about a genuine overcurrent-in-the-chopper problem? You seem to have neglected that inout to the latch. I suspect a shorted rectifier diode on the output side of the PSU could do that, or a shroted smoothing capacitor. Check for dead shorts between each of the outputs and ground. If you find one that tests shorted, desolder the assoicalted diode and capacitor and check those for shorts. Do we know that this model of supply works correctly with no load? Some SMPSUs will go into overvoltage shutdown if they have no load. Equally a high ESR capacitor on the 5V output would put high-ish voltage spikes there (around 10V typically) which would trip that latch and shut things down. > We know that U4 was bad so it may have been the only bad part. This > makes #2 a likely possibility. Try adjusting the pot R39 such that the wi= > per > is closest to R38 ( maximum resistance ). Cycle the power switch. > Normally I wouldn't suggest adjusting any pots in a non-working circuit > but this one should be harmless. Don't worry about remembering the My rule is that I'll only tweak a preset if : a) Misadjustment can't cause further damage. b) I know the procedure for settign it correctly and have the equipment to do so. Here. even if the PSU overvoltages it won't do any damage because you don't have the rest of the computer connected to it. And the prcedurte for settign it is to adjust if for 5V on the 5V output connection, something you only need a voltmeter for. > location on this pot as it would have needed some adjustment anyway, > with the replacement of U4. > Do not fiddle with any of the other adjustments! Whateverr you do, don't disable the overcurrent trip circuit. Doing that is a sure way to gets bits of (expensive) chopper transistor distributed round the room and the magic smoke escaping from all sorts of components. Please don't ask how I found that out (OK, I was young and foolish!). -tony From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Sep 21 13:03:12 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 11:03:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: a new BBS... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> Many thanks to Tony for providing the information I needed to chase down >> the wiring error I had in the machine. > > Don't keep me in suspense, what was the problem? > > -tony It's what I originally suspected. I had the CD wire going to the wrong pin on the card end of the wiring harness. It was going to pin 12 when it should've been going to pin 15. Changing the pinout while everything was installed was a challenge, especially while simultaneously trying to avoid touching the yoke on the CRT neck. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Sep 21 14:13:55 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 11:13:55 -0800 Subject: a new BBS... References: <200809210014.m8L0EQl21114@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> <48D5F9EB.3020904@gjcp.net> <4affc5e0809210818s5cd1312bvb2b97db7d5ace4a4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48D69CF2.BCCF9540@cs.ubc.ca> Joachim Thiemann wrote: > (Anyone else ever had the ability to whistle 1200 bps fax > initiators??? Probably the least useful thing I learned at an Ottawa > telecom equipment company... no not THAT one... the OTHER one that > went bust :-) Used to be that when I received a 'dead phone call' (phone rings, but no response to a 'hello'), I'd whistle into the phone, varying the frequency of my whistle, and sure enough, sometimes I'd get a modem responding. Somebody with the wrong number in their modem or fax machine.. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 21 13:23:00 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 11:23:00 -0700 Subject: Apollo Guidance Computer In-Reply-To: <48D67992.7070402@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <48D60C0A.29484.23FB46C3@cclist.sydex.com>, <48D67992.7070402@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <48D62E94.18716.24823141@cclist.sydex.com> On 21 Sep 2008 at 10:42, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > But that is what made it special - the components at the time. > They have 3 input NOR's in tiny logic, so do smaller PCB's > if you want a smaller system. :) One could also make use of transistor arrays to recreate the original RTL part. Given that there were some 5000 of these packages in the original (IIRC), that might make for a project a bit too large to chew. Given that integration is used to decrease this package count by 9/10ths, what's the problem with substituting some programmable logic? How is that "less authentic" than substituting MSI TTL for SSI RTL? One could use the extra space in the rack to store a six- pack of one's favorite beverage. :) Cheers, Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Sep 21 14:56:00 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 11:56:00 -0800 Subject: Apollo Guidance Computer References: , <48D60C0A.29484.23FB46C3@cclist.sydex.com>, <48D67992.7070402@jetnet.ab.ca> <48D62E94.18716.24823141@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <48D6A6CF.58A18ABE@cs.ubc.ca> Dan wrote: > Yes, but I think part of this hobby is also having some level of > authenticity. > Although many of the original parts can't be available, some level of > hardware consistency is maintained. > Another group redesigned the ENIAC into a FPGA chip. > Part of an engineer's job is to design within constraints, you lose that > when using advanced technology. > Eliminating this factor when trying to replicate a system is making it > too easy. ... > Besides what fun is for all to stand around the table and look down on > one lonely FPGA chip ? Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 21 Sep 2008 at 10:42, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > > But that is what made it special - the components at the time. > > They have 3 input NOR's in tiny logic, so do smaller PCB's > > if you want a smaller system. :) > > One could also make use of transistor arrays to recreate the original > RTL part. Given that there were some 5000 of these packages in the > original (IIRC), that might make for a project a bit too large to > chew. Given that integration is used to decrease this package count > by 9/10ths, what's the problem with substituting some programmable > logic? How is that "less authentic" than substituting MSI TTL for > SSI RTL? One could use the extra space in the rack to store a six- > pack of one's favorite beverage. :) I'd say it's just a matter of preference of where one wants to draw the line. Just for the sake of discussion, I'd suggest using SMD CMOS 4025 triple 3-input NOR gates, or 7410 triple 3-input NAND gates with negative logic, to fairly closely mimic the original implementation. (Might depend on whether wire-AND connections were used much in the original.) From ragooman at comcast.net Sun Sep 21 14:46:08 2008 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 15:46:08 -0400 Subject: Apollo Guidance Computer In-Reply-To: <48D62E94.18716.24823141@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <48D60C0A.29484.23FB46C3@cclist.sydex.com>, <48D67992.7070402@jetnet.ab.ca> <48D62E94.18716.24823141@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <48D6A480.6090005@comcast.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > One could use the extra space in the rack to store a six- > pack of one's favorite beverage. :) > I bet the astronauts back then wouldn't have mind that extra convenience :) =Dan [ Pittsburgh 250th --- http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Sun Sep 21 15:00:51 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 20:00:51 +0000 Subject: Apollo Guidance Computer In-Reply-To: <48D6A480.6090005@comcast.net> References: <48D67992.7070402@jetnet.ab.ca> <48D62E94.18716.24823141@cclist.sydex.com> <48D6A480.6090005@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20080921200051.GA26515@usap.gov> On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 03:46:08PM -0400, Dan wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > >One could use the extra space in the rack to store a six- > >pack of one's favorite beverage. :) > > > I bet the astronauts back then wouldn't have mind that extra convenience :) When did Tang come in six-packs? ;-) -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 21-Sep-2008 at 20:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -72.4 F (-58.0 C) Windchill -119.8 F (-84.3 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 20.4 kts Grid 70 Barometer 675.8 mb (10787 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sun Sep 21 07:07:51 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 08:07:51 -0400 Subject: Z80 home brew with FDC Message-ID: Hi, If anyone is interested in building a FDC for their Z80 home brew computer please contact me off list. I am building a FDC for my Z80 home brew computer and would like to see how it works for other builders. The design is general enough to adapt to most Z80 systems. It has IDE and i8272 (NEC 765) sections. I have a working prototype on my bench and can read and write sectors and format tracks. It includes a simple disk monitor program for testing the FDC which could be easily adapted to other systems. I would like to improve and refine this design and increase test coverage with other builders. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org Sun Sep 21 16:24:04 2008 From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org (Alexis) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 06:54:04 +0930 Subject: Z80 home brew with FDC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200809220654.05034.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> On Sun, 21 Sep 2008 09:37:51 pm Andrew Lynch wrote: > I have a working prototype on my bench and can read and write sectors and > format tracks. I never worked out how to format tracks on the 8272. It's one of the things that puts me off using them. Could you describe how it's done? The other thing that puts me off is the data clock separator. How are you doing this? Thanks, Alexis. From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Sep 21 16:43:09 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 14:43:09 -0700 Subject: Z80 home brew with FDC In-Reply-To: <200809220654.05034.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> References: <200809220654.05034.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> Message-ID: <48D6BFED.8040305@brouhaha.com> Alexis wrote: > The other thing that puts me off is the data clock separator. How are you > doing this? I can't speak for Andrew, but if you're not using an FDC with a built-in data separator, the easiest way to do it is to use the SMC 9216, 9229, or 9239 digital data separator chips, some or all of which were second-sourced by Western Digital. Of course, they were obsoleted by the newer FDCs with internal data separators. Eric From rcini at optonline.net Sun Sep 21 16:45:44 2008 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 17:45:44 -0400 Subject: Z80 home brew with FDC In-Reply-To: <200809220654.05034.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> Message-ID: On 9/21/08 5:24 PM, "Alexis" wrote: > On Sun, 21 Sep 2008 09:37:51 pm Andrew Lynch wrote: >> I have a working prototype on my bench and can read and write sectors and >> format tracks. > > I never worked out how to format tracks on the 8272. It's one of the things > that puts me off using them. Could you describe how it's done? > > The other thing that puts me off is the data clock separator. How are you > doing this? Look at the code for the CompuPro Disk 1 interface. I don't have to code for my CBIOS handy but I recall that you have to establish a 6-byte command buffer (with the right parameters), establish the interleave (if formatting with one) and then loop through all of the tracks sequentially, sending the format command for each track. I used a hardware interleave so that my CBIOS didn't have to do it. The command buffer for my CP/M system looks like this. The fields come right from the 8272 manual. FMTDAT .DB F_FMT ; format command .DB 00H ;HDS,DS1,DS0 .DB NFIELD ;N (0, 1, 2, 3) 0=128-byte sectors .DB FSC ;Sector count (26,15,8) =1ah .DB 01BH ;SPECIAL FORMAT GPL. .DB 0E5H ;D (FILLER BYTE) Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://www.classiccmp.org/cini From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 21 17:12:30 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 23:12:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: a new BBS... In-Reply-To: from "Gene Buckle" at Sep 21, 8 11:03:12 am Message-ID: > > >> Many thanks to Tony for providing the information I needed to chase down > >> the wiring error I had in the machine. > > > > Don't keep me in suspense, what was the problem? > > > > -tony > > It's what I originally suspected. I had the CD wire going to the wrong > pin on the card end of the wiring harness. It was going to pin 12 when it > should've been going to pin 15. Right... > > Changing the pinout while everything was installed was a challenge, When I was working on the Z90, I found it helpful to rememebr that it was a Z19 with the processor board added (making n H88) and then the floppy disk system added after that. And that it was best to remove things in the reverse order. Take the floppy drive out first, then the add-on boards, then the CPU board and finally the Z19 board, etc. > especially while simultaneously trying to avoid touching the yoke on the > CRT neck. :) I assume you were doing this with the machine turned off. In whcih case what's the problem with the yoke? It's not a colour CRT so there's no real alignment problem if you do slightly move it. There's no stored high voltage on the yoke. -tony From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Sep 21 17:20:56 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 15:20:56 -0700 Subject: Otrona Attache power supply woes... In-Reply-To: References: from Message-ID: > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk > >>> Sure. >>> >>> U4: >>> 1 - 0V >>> 2 - 2.40V >>> 3 - 0V >>> 4 - 0V >>> 5 - oscillating >>> 8 - 7.91V >> >>> 9 - 4.43V >> >> Hi Josh > > At least the refernce voltage is more reasonable now :-). That old TL494 > was almost certainly defective. > >> Getting closer. Pin 9 should be almost zero. The two transistors ( Q17, = >> Q18 ) >> form a latch. Normally this latch is not tripped and Q17 is on while Q18 = >> is off. >> Two sources of signals can trip the latch. One is an over voltage on the = >> 5 volt line >> and the other is an over current in the switcher transistor. The over cur= >> rent is detected >> by the optical coupler ( D1 in the switcher board ). >> All the levels on U5 look as expected under the current conditions. >> There are a number of possible reasons that the Q17,Q18 latch has fired.= >> Not >> all are normal operation of this circuit. >> 1. D18 may be shorted and any voltage on the output trips it >> 2. Replacing the bad U4 has caused the voltage adjustment to be too high, >> causing the circuit to trip. >> 3. Q18 may be shorted. >> 4. Q17 may be open. >> 5. Something else > > How about a genuine overcurrent-in-the-chopper problem? You seem to have > neglected that inout to the latch. I suspect a shorted rectifier diode on > the output side of the PSU could do that, or a shroted smoothing > capacitor. > > Check for dead shorts between each of the outputs and ground. If you find > one that tests shorted, desolder the assoicalted diode and capacitor and > check those for shorts. Hi Tony I'd put these under #5. When finding a failed part, I generally don't suspect other parts unless I can find some connection with the failure I know. Not saying I've not seen multiple failures in old equipment, just that it isn't as likely. Checking the diodes for the output is a good idea in most any case. > > Do we know that this model of supply works correctly with no load? Some > SMPSUs will go into overvoltage shutdown if they have no load. Equally a > high ESR capacitor on the 5V output would put high-ish voltage spikes > there (around 10V typically) which would trip that latch and shut things > down. I guess we should recommend that he connects a dummy load. Connecting a 6V car lamp is usually enough. As you say, the turnon spike with no load might be enough to trip the overvoltage latch. > > >> We know that U4 was bad so it may have been the only bad part. This >> makes #2 a likely possibility. Try adjusting the pot R39 such that the wi= >> per >> is closest to R38 ( maximum resistance ). Cycle the power switch. >> Normally I wouldn't suggest adjusting any pots in a non-working circuit >> but this one should be harmless. Don't worry about remembering the > > My rule is that I'll only tweak a preset if : > > a) Misadjustment can't cause further damage. > > b) I know the procedure for settign it correctly and have the equipment > to do so. > > Here. even if the PSU overvoltages it won't do any damage because you > don't have the rest of the computer connected to it. And the prcedurte > for settign it is to adjust if for 5V on the 5V output connection, > something you only need a voltmeter for. That is why I said that this should be a safe adjustment. Like I said, he shouldn't touch any of the other adjustments. I'd suspect he could handle this one. The difference in U4 chips could be enough to trip the overvoltage detector. I'd rather he did this than defeat this circuit ( although it would be simple to defeat ). Any problem of too much current, as you suggested, would be letting too much smoke out. > >> location on this pot as it would have needed some adjustment anyway, >> with the replacement of U4. >> Do not fiddle with any of the other adjustments! > > Whateverr you do, don't disable the overcurrent trip circuit. Doing that > is a sure way to gets bits of (expensive) chopper transistor distributed > round the room and the magic smoke escaping from all sorts of components. > Please don't ask how I found that out (OK, I was young and foolish!). I was involved with designing a 4 quadrant switcher supply once. Before I located the input to an OpAmp being inverted, I popped a number of transistors. I suspect that I could have done the debugging in a safer way but it was hard to convince my self that there was a design error that I'd made my self. Sometimes one just has to burn ones fingers a little to except reality. Dwight > > -tony _________________________________________________________________ Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn ?10 hidden secrets? from Jamie. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008 From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sun Sep 21 08:12:46 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 09:12:46 -0400 Subject: Z80 home brew with FDC Message-ID: <3A96C3EFA18746BD853195828FD3B9DA@andrewdesktop> On 9/21/08 5:24 PM, "Alexis" > wrote: > On Sun, 21 Sep 2008 09:37:51 pm Andrew Lynch wrote: >> I have a working prototype on my bench and can read and write sectors and >> format tracks. > > I never worked out how to format tracks on the 8272. It's one of the things > that puts me off using them. Could you describe how it's done? > > The other thing that puts me off is the data clock separator. How are you > doing this? Look at the code for the CompuPro Disk 1 interface. I don't have to code for my CBIOS handy but I recall that you have to establish a 6-byte command buffer (with the right parameters), establish the interleave (if formatting with one) and then loop through all of the tracks sequentially, sending the format command for each track. I used a hardware interleave so that my CBIOS didn't have to do it. The command buffer for my CP/M system looks like this. The fields come right from the 8272 manual. FMTDAT .DB F_FMT ; format command .DB 00H ;HDS,DS1,DS0 .DB NFIELD ;N (0, 1, 2, 3) 0=128-byte sectors .DB FSC ;Sector count (26,15,8) =1ah .DB 01BH ;SPECIAL FORMAT GPL. .DB 0E5H ;D (FILLER BYTE) Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://www.classiccmp.org/cini ------REPLY------ Hi Alexis, Rich, Thanks Rich! Yes, Rich has the right command sequence but you also need to send the C, H, R, N to the i8272 for each sector during the execution phase. It is not very intuitive but I got it working last night on my test bench and confirmed it is working with Dave Dunfield's IMD program (Thanks Dave!) and the Catweasel with CW2DMK (Thanks Tim!). For some odd reason it also requires a leading $00 to format correctly which I don't understand either. Basically, it is like writing a sector but you feed it sector metadata as it goes around the track formatting sectors. Note, during execution phase it is not like feeding the MSR/data registers like during the command/result phase. The whole NEC765/i8272 process is kind of screwy IMO and I am struggling to get my brain around it. I have sample code if you'd like to see it but it is an awful mess right now. As for the data separator, I am using an FDC9229 although you could use a FDC9239 I think. The chips are still available but not exactly common. You have to look but you can find them. I have some pointers if you'd like. Actually, Alexis, you'd be the perfect guy for building your own Z80 home brew FDC as you already have done most of this on your other projects. You did an awesome job on your home brew 8080 a while back and your other projects have been great too. Your experience would be a lot of help to the project in putting out a design that not only works but is reliable and flexible. I'd like to support as many hobbyists as possible so I am trying to preserve the hardware "hooks" to support 8" drives, etc. Due to the complexity of this project it could really use another set of eyes to check the design. There are many subtle issues with FDCs that require real hardware experience. One final note, the i8272 data sheet for the FORMAT TRACK command is rather misleading or at least incomplete IMO. I prefer the SMC FDC765 datasheet found on the BitSavers.org site (Thanks Al!). It also has data sheets for hard to find units like the FDC9216, FDC9229, FDC9239, etc. Warning: 45MB FILE! http://bitsavers.org/pdf/standardMicrosystems/_dataBooks/1985_StandardMicros ystems.pdf Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Sep 21 17:28:18 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 15:28:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: a new BBS... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 21 Sep 2008, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> Changing the pinout while everything was installed was a challenge, > > When I was working on the Z90, I found it helpful to rememebr that it was > a Z19 with the processor board added (making n H88) and then the floppy > disk system added after that. And that it was best to remove things in > the reverse order. Take the floppy drive out first, then the add-on > boards, then the CPU board and finally the Z19 board, etc. > I didn't want to have to tear down the whole machine just to make it easy to move a single pin. :) > >> especially while simultaneously trying to avoid touching the yoke on the >> CRT neck. :) > > I assume you were doing this with the machine turned off. In whcih case > what's the problem with the yoke? It's not a colour CRT so there's no > real alignment problem if you do slightly move it. There's no stored high > voltage on the yoke. > I'm paranoid enough that I didn't want to come in contact with any part of the CRT at all. I wasn't worried about moving the yoke, I was worried about it biting me. It's nice to know that with the power off there wasn't any danger though. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org Sun Sep 21 17:52:16 2008 From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org (Alexis) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 08:22:16 +0930 Subject: Z80 home brew with FDC In-Reply-To: <3A96C3EFA18746BD853195828FD3B9DA@andrewdesktop> References: <3A96C3EFA18746BD853195828FD3B9DA@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <200809220822.16872.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> On Sun, 21 Sep 2008 10:42:46 pm Andrew Lynch wrote: > Hi Alexis, Rich, > > As for the data separator, I am using an FDC9229 although you could use a > FDC9239 I think. The chips are still available but not exactly common. > You have to look but you can find them. I have some pointers if you'd > like. I'd like to see if the data separator on the FDC-1 for the SYM-1 would work on the 765. The FDC-1 uses a FD179x controller and it appears it uses the same data clock and raw data inputs as the 765. I've built the FDC-1 for my SYM-1 last week and it works a treat, in both FM and MFM modes and on 720k 3.5" disks. I used an SMC FDC1797 from an old word processor. The board it came off had a 9229 on it so I think there's a good chance the circuit will work. The decoder is made up of a 74LS197 (clock divider), a dual 74LS74 flip-flop, both used, a 74LS163 counter and an inverter. There are also some open collector NAND gates to select the clock rate for either 8" or 5.25" drives. It'll use more individual IC packages, but they're *much* easier to find. The circuits are, of course, at 6502.org: http://6502.org/users/dallas/SYM/SYMDOS2/fdc_sheet1.pdf http://6502.org/users/dallas/SYM/SYMDOS2/fdc_sheet2.pdf Thanks for that link to the SMC datasheet too. I'll give it a good looking over when it's downloaded. I was never 100% clear on the format procedure given in the Intel datasheet, so hopefully the SMC one will be a little better! Thanks, Alexis. From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Sep 21 17:56:19 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 18:56:19 -0400 Subject: Magnetic peripherals (CDC) tape drive Message-ID: <200809211856.19550.pat@computer-refuge.org> I'm looking for any information (like tape cartridge type, capacity, bus interface) on a Magnetic Peripherals BY5A5-F tape drive (part no. 77024231). Thanks! Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From rcini at optonline.net Sun Sep 21 18:21:55 2008 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 19:21:55 -0400 Subject: Z80 home brew with FDC In-Reply-To: <3A96C3EFA18746BD853195828FD3B9DA@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: > ------REPLY------ > > Hi Alexis, Rich, > > Thanks Rich! Yes, Rich has the right command sequence but you also need to > send the C, H, R, N to the i8272 for each sector during the execution phase. > It is not very intuitive but I got it working last night on my test bench > and confirmed it is working with Dave Dunfield's IMD program (Thanks Dave!) > and the Catweasel with CW2DMK (Thanks Tim!). For some odd reason it also > requires a leading $00 to format correctly which I don't understand either. > > Basically, it is like writing a sector but you feed it sector metadata as it > goes around the track formatting sectors. Note, during execution phase it > is not like feeding the MSR/data registers like during the command/result > phase. The whole NEC765/i8272 process is kind of screwy IMO and I am > struggling to get my brain around it. I have sample code if you'd like to > see it but it is an awful mess right now. > > As for the data separator, I am using an FDC9229 although you could use a > FDC9239 I think. The chips are still available but not exactly common. You > have to look but you can find them. I have some pointers if you'd like. > > Actually, Alexis, you'd be the perfect guy for building your own Z80 home > brew FDC as you already have done most of this on your other projects. You > did an awesome job on your home brew 8080 a while back and your other > projects have been great too. Your experience would be a lot of help to the > project in putting out a design that not only works but is reliable and > flexible. I could post the entire format code if you want but there is about 50 lines of code dedicated to properly formatting the CHRN data for the 8272. I actually grossly oversimplified the process for the sake of brevity, and I agree that it's needlessly complex. OTOH, the sector read/write is fairly simple for sequential sectors -- like when loading CP/M. You just tell it the starting sector data and the number of "additional" sectors to read and let it loose. Works like a charm. Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://www.classiccmp.org/cini From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Sun Sep 21 18:29:04 2008 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 00:29:04 +0100 Subject: Sources for unusual d-sub connectors? In-Reply-To: <200809201701.m8KH0lPP059611@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200809201701.m8KH0lPP059611@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <87519509-63CD-496A-A6E1-44F0FD37F458@microspot.co.uk> > > Does anyone have a source for 19 pin d-sub connectors? The Apple II > used these for disk drives. //e not ][, in Europe anyway. With a ][ or ][+ the drive has a 20 way connector which pushes straight onto the interface card and you trap it between the case and the lid as a strain relief. The //e had a short linking cable inside the case but if you had an old drive you could still do it the old way I think. Roger Holmes. From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Sep 21 18:40:58 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 18:40:58 -0500 Subject: a new BBS... In-Reply-To: References: <200809210014.m8L0EQl21114@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> Message-ID: <48D6DB8A.2070604@oldskool.org> Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 11:45 PM -0700 9/20/08, David Griffith wrote: >> Now as soon as I can figure out how to do POTS modem dialing through a >> cell phone, I'll call. > > How much longer will old fashioned modems continue to work with the > evolving phone systems that we have? When it was looking like I'd be > forced to move to Verizon FIOS a couple weeks ago, I made inquiries and > learned that if you have FIOS you can not use a modem. To be fair, if you are lucky enough to qualify for Verizon FIOS, you won't ever want to use a modem. 30mb/s downstream to the house... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Sep 21 18:48:48 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 17:48:48 -0600 Subject: a new BBS... In-Reply-To: <48D6DB8A.2070604@oldskool.org> References: <200809210014.m8L0EQl21114@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> <48D6DB8A.2070604@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <48D6DD60.6060701@jetnet.ab.ca> Jim Leonard wrote: > > To be fair, if you are lucky enough to qualify for Verizon FIOS, you > won't ever want to use a modem. 30mb/s downstream to the house... Umm Upload rate is what ... BBS's send not suck data. ;) From bear at typewritten.org Sun Sep 21 19:26:01 2008 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 17:26:01 -0700 Subject: a new BBS... In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0809210818s5cd1312bvb2b97db7d5ace4a4@mail.gmail.com> References: <200809210014.m8L0EQl21114@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> <48D5F9EB.3020904@gjcp.net> <4affc5e0809210818s5cd1312bvb2b97db7d5ace4a4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <82CF78CB-88ED-467F-BC38-187E41499570@typewritten.org> On Sep 21, 2008, at 8:18 AM, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > Depends on carrier. IIRC (someone feel free to correct me), most > modern phones that have serial USB or Bluetooth profiles (most Nokias > and Motorolas do) support CSD (Circuit Switched Data), so serial data > is not voice-band modulated at the phone, but sent to the carrier > digitally, then modulated at their switch. I used to use a Sony-Ericsson T610 as a bluetooth modem on my PowerBook, through T-Mobile. If the GPRS data service was not available, I could send it AT commands and use it as if it were any other modem. Dialup through the GSM service was good for 9600 BPS. ok bear From dave at mitton.com Sun Sep 21 19:39:31 2008 From: dave at mitton.com (Dave Mitton) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 20:39:31 -0400 Subject: Single buffered Ethernet adapters Was: OS/2 Warp, was Re: PCjr Telnet Server In-Reply-To: <200809181704.m8IH39gr038153@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200809181704.m8IH39gr038153@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200809220037.m8M0b63Y067952@keith.ezwind.net> On 9/18/2008 01:04 PM, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: >Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 11:21:02 -0400 >From: Paul Koning >Subject: Re: OS/2 Warp, was Re: PCjr Telnet Server Test - Done! >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Message-ID: <18641.8286.275784.301355 at gargle.gargle.HOWL> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > >>>>> "Ethan" == Ethan Dicks writes: > > Ethan> Back when NIC weren't $10 each, I remember the easiest to work > Ethan> with (in terms of compatibility) were the NE2000 and clones > Ethan> (NE1000 for 8-bit machines), the WD (later SMC) 8013, and the > Ethan> 3C501, later displaced by the 3C509. ... > >Something to keep in mind is that the 3C501 is an extremely bad >design. It is completely incapable of dealing with back to back >packets -- even just two of them. And of course that's a perfectly >normal situation in any plausible network. > >I remember working on DECnet when these toys came around, and the >request came in to have a "go slow" feature in DECnet to support this >single buffered design. The answer, of course, was "NFW". (Slowing >down at the source wouldn't have helped because the network could >easily cause clumping anyway...) > > paul The problem with the 3C501 (and the InterLAN and Ungermann-Bass, and other I've forgotten about) Ethernet cards of this era where that they only had one packet of memory on them. Once a packet was received, you had to wait until software retrieved the packet and re-enabled the card, before you could get the next. Likewise if you wanted to transmit - you had to disable reception, copy the transmit packet into the card, and then send it. In PCs of that era that was a substantial chunk of time relative to the potential arrival rate of 10Mbs Ethernet. I have a presentation I have given at DECUS, where I analyzed (on paper) what the likely best possible rates for an XT or PC-AT would be. I should scan that in. (highly unlikely I have a machine readably copy! wonder what I prepped that in?) NetWare and NetBEUI driven networks hardly noticed this problem for two reasons: 1) they were Request/Response protocols. They normally did not expect additional packets until they responded, and 2) they were talking to other PCs. Which simply couldn't generate traffic fast enough. With respect to DECnet, the problem came up quickly when we started having PCs make requests from PDP-11 or VAX file servers, using either FAL or the PathWorks server. When pushing data the mini computer could quickly over run the slow PC with a dumb Ethernet card. The rest of the world noticed when TCP/IP implementations got good enough to encounter similar problems with FTP pulls, and PC file servers finally got enough aggregate clients. The workaround in DECnet-DOS was a careful tuning of the buffer pool, and the transport (NSP) credit flow control window algorithms. The delayed-ack mechanism was optionally tweaked to send an ACK immediately upon receiving a packet ahead of the expected next. This typically indicated a lost packet, and usually generated an immediate retransmit. The VAXmate and PCs using the DEPCA card would run rings around these other cards. Because they used the AMD LANCE Ethernet chip with multiple packet buffers in a mapped memory buffer. The DECnet-DOS kernel optimized this by using it directly for it's buffer pool and removing the need for another memory to memory packet copy. With all due respect Paul, I've never asked another DECnet implementation to "slow down", certainly not DECnet-RSTS. But don't get me started on the VMS implementation of async DDCMP. Dave (Mr. DECnet-DOS) From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Sun Sep 21 19:47:32 2008 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul_Koning at Dell.com) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 19:47:32 -0500 Subject: Single buffered Ethernet adapters Was: OS/2 Warp, was Re: PCjr Telnet Server In-Reply-To: <200809220037.m8M0b63Y067952@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200809181704.m8IH39gr038153@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200809220037.m8M0b63Y067952@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: > The problem with the 3C501 (and the InterLAN and Ungermann-Bass, and > other I've forgotten about) Ethernet cards of this era where that > they only had one packet of memory on them. > ... > With respect to DECnet, the problem came up quickly when we started > having PCs make requests from PDP-11 or VAX file servers, using > either FAL or the PathWorks server. When pushing data the mini > computer could quickly over run the slow PC with a dumb Ethernet > card. The rest of the world noticed when TCP/IP implementations got > good enough to encounter similar problems with FTP pulls, and PC file > servers finally got enough aggregate clients. > > The workaround in DECnet-DOS was a careful tuning of the buffer pool, > and the transport (NSP) credit flow control window algorithms. The > delayed-ack mechanism was optionally tweaked to send an ACK > immediately upon receiving a packet ahead of the expected next. This > typically indicated a lost packet, and usually generated an immediate > retransmit. > ... > With all due respect Paul, I've never asked another DECnet > implementation to "slow down", certainly not DECnet-RSTS. But don't > get me started on the VMS implementation of async DDCMP. > > Dave (Mr. DECnet-DOS) I wasn't in DECnet/E at the time... But I remember a discussion in the DECnet architecture group about the notion of having a "slow mode" for single buffered adapters. I don't remember where it came from, I guess not from you, but I don't think I'm imagining this. In any case, the idea went nowhere because it can't work: even if a single node sends one packet at a time, that doesn't protect you from a multicast from another node, or coincidences like that. Paul From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Sep 21 20:02:25 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 18:02:25 -0700 Subject: Z80 home brew with FDC In-Reply-To: <200809220822.16872.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> References: <3A96C3EFA18746BD853195828FD3B9DA@andrewdesktop> <200809220822.16872.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> Message-ID: <48D6EEA1.7080508@brouhaha.com> Alexis wrote: > The FDC-1 uses a FD179x controller and it appears it uses the same > data clock and raw data inputs as the 765. Not quite. I don't recall the details of the difference, but I think it may have just been the polarity of one of the signals. The 9229 and 9239 had a configuration input to select between 179x and 765 modes. The 9216 would directly connect to one, and needed a small amount of logic (maybe just an inverter) for the other. > The decoder is made up of a 74LS197 (clock divider), a dual 74LS74 flip-flop, > both used, a 74LS163 counter and an inverter. There are also some open > collector NAND gates to select the clock rate for either 8" or 5.25" drives. > It'll use more individual IC packages, but they're *much* easier to find. Sure, but it doesn't sound like it's a very good data separator. The good ones have a PLL (either analog or digital), because it is necessary to track speed variations, not just of the drive that you're using to read a disk, but also of the drive that wrote it. Non-PLL data separators work OK when the disk is both written and read under optimal conditions, but are unreliable otherwise. The 9216, 9229 or 9239 are *highly* recommended, as they have a good digital data separator. The 9229 and 9239 also contain write precomp logic. The 9239 uses higher resolution timing for its PLL, so it may perform better. From ragooman at comcast.net Sun Sep 21 20:28:57 2008 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 21:28:57 -0400 Subject: Apollo Guidance Computer In-Reply-To: <48D6514F.5010002@comcast.net> References: <48D6514F.5010002@comcast.net> Message-ID: <48D6F4D9.20908@comcast.net> Dan wrote: > I feel this would make some people scratch their heads :) > > What type of arithmetic operations were used to perform all the > calculations on the Apollo Guidance Computer ? > > a) Floating Point arithmetic operations > b) Fixed Point Arithmetic operations > c) Integer Arithmetic operations > d) Slide Rule Arithmetic operations > e) all of the above what ? everyone still scratching their heads on this one :) Ok, the answer would be d) slide rule If anyone remembers using their slide rule, you happen to be using Fractional Arithmetic. If I wrote this down for answer d) it may have been obvious to some, so I thru a little twist into it. The Apollo programmers always coded their calculations as if they were using a slide rule(this was the early 60's remember). They would have to keep track on paper of the equation's dynamic range(also anticipate how large this range could become) since the design didn't incorporate exponents within the answer(as would be found in a FPU). BTW, the HP-65 calculator was used as the backup computer on later missions, since it was too programmable. =Dan [ Pittsburgh 250th --- http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] From jim at photojim.ca Sun Sep 21 22:20:33 2008 From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 21:20:33 -0600 Subject: a new BBS... In-Reply-To: References: <200809210014.m8L0EQl21114@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> Message-ID: <0E469FD5F00D47D4A3D038E94D841385@melbourne> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David Griffith > Sent: September 21, 2008 12:45 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: a new BBS... > > Now as soon as I can figure out how to do POTS modem dialing > through a cell phone, I'll call. You can do it if you have an analog phone (and still have analog service where you live), but it doesn't work on digital mobile phone networks, alas, unless your provider still offers circuit-switched data (where it actually dials out with a real modem on your behalf, and forwards the data over the cellular network). Jim From jim at photojim.ca Sun Sep 21 22:22:11 2008 From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 21:22:11 -0600 Subject: a new BBS... In-Reply-To: References: <200809210014.m8L0EQl21114@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> Message-ID: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy > Sent: September 21, 2008 1:15 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: a new BBS... > > How much longer will old fashioned modems continue to work > with the evolving phone systems that we have? When it was > looking like I'd be forced to move to Verizon FIOS a couple > weeks ago, I made inquiries and learned that if you have FIOS > you can not use a modem. I have a VoIP phone line with my cable television provider, and I can use a modem. (The one or two times a year that my cablemodem service goes down, my phone service is usually still up and I can use dial-up, and have indeed done so). Jim From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Sep 21 13:47:54 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 11:47:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: need manuals (and additional 'wares) for THE CANON AS-100 Message-ID: <546020.28762.qm@web65502.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Yes finally made the ride up to Lake George, NY. It was a lot more painless then I suspected. The thing could have EASILY been shipped though, I don't know what this guy's problem was. Regardless though, it's in nice shape, is COLOR, and includes the 8" floppy box. No manuals. Some software on 5 1/4" and 8" disks (some of these disks may be 160k's though - hope ID can handle them ). Haven't looked at any of that yet. There is a site out there (German I think) that has a good assortment of s/w, but no FORTRAN or COBOL I don't think. Anyhoo, need manuals and whatever other intangibles I can get my hands on. Digital camera repro's are fine (they're nice and quick). The guy was of the persuasion that this thing had 32k of ram. I said no way. And I was right - it has 512k. So being some of his information is of dubious value, I need to ask whether anyone can confirm or deny that this thing was available in Japan before the 5150 was. My guess is no. Was cp/m-86 available before the Peecee came out? From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Sep 21 18:05:55 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 19:05:55 -0400 Subject: Z80 home brew with FDC Message-ID: <0K7K005XDIRWOLP3@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Z80 home brew with FDC > From: Eric Smith > Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 14:43:09 -0700 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Alexis wrote: >> The other thing that puts me off is the data clock separator. How are you >> doing this? > >I can't speak for Andrew, but if you're not using an FDC with a built-in > data separator, the easiest way to do it is to use the SMC 9216, 9229, >or 9239 digital data separator chips, some or all of which were >second-sourced by Western Digital. Of course, they were obsoleted by >the newer FDCs with internal data separators. It can also be done with a small amount of ttl. Of course the 37C65 if you can find it or salvage it off an old PC floppy/ide board will be far lower parts count. Allison > >Eric From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Sep 21 19:31:57 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 20:31:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Sources for unusual d-sub connectors? In-Reply-To: <451033.31493.qm@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <451033.31493.qm@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 19 Sep 2008, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Does anyone have a source for 19 pin d-sub connectors? The Apple II used > these for disk drives. > > I haven't been able to find anyplace online that carries these. Any > ideas? Similarly, what about 23 pin d-sub connectors (Commodore Amiga > disk drive and video connectors)? I just picked up a bunch of these and the even rarer 23 pin versions (with shells for all) from IEC: www.iec.net. Reasonably priced and quick service! Steve -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Sep 21 19:33:48 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 20:33:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Sources for unusual d-sub connectors? In-Reply-To: <6d6501090809200347qefad1bcvaae692206dd4850e@mail.gmail.com> References: <451033.31493.qm@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <48D44BFB.8040602@jetnet.ab.ca> <6d6501090809200347qefad1bcvaae692206dd4850e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 20 Sep 2008, Chris Halarewich wrote: > http://www.abra-electronics.com/products/catalog/D-Sub-Connectors-Solder-Type-p-4780.html > Ouch... Thanks for the tip! They are much less expensive than IEC. Wish I knew about them before placing my order :-(. Steve -- From chrise at pobox.com Sun Sep 21 19:43:38 2008 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 19:43:38 -0500 Subject: a new BBS... In-Reply-To: <48D6DD60.6060701@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200809210014.m8L0EQl21114@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> <48D6DB8A.2070604@oldskool.org> <48D6DD60.6060701@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20080922004338.GV2137@n0jcf.net> On Sunday (09/21/2008 at 05:48PM -0600), bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > Jim Leonard wrote: >> >> To be fair, if you are lucky enough to qualify for Verizon FIOS, you won't >> ever want to use a modem. 30mb/s downstream to the house... > Umm Upload rate is what ... BBS's send not suck data. ;) However, you might still want to use a modem if you have a home security system or a satellite TV receiver... all of which use an embedded modem to "phone home". VoIP (voice over IP) telephony is causing a lot of grief for these legacy dialup technologies. Chris -- Chris Elmquist mailto:chrise at pobox.com From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Sep 21 20:44:03 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 21:44:03 -0400 Subject: Z80 home brew with FDC Message-ID: <0K7K00B1JQ3GFSW7@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Z80 home brew with FDC > From: Eric Smith > Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 18:02:25 -0700 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Alexis wrote: >> The FDC-1 uses a FD179x controller and it appears it uses the same >> data clock and raw data inputs as the 765. > >Not quite. I don't recall the details of the difference, but I think it >may have just been the polarity of one of the signals. The 9229 and >9239 had a configuration input to select between 179x and 765 modes. >The 9216 would directly connect to one, and needed a small amount of >logic (maybe just an inverter) for the other. > >> The decoder is made up of a 74LS197 (clock divider), a dual 74LS74 flip-flop, >> both used, a 74LS163 counter and an inverter. There are also some open >> collector NAND gates to select the clock rate for either 8" or 5.25" drives. >> It'll use more individual IC packages, but they're *much* easier to find. > >Sure, but it doesn't sound like it's a very good data separator. The >good ones have a PLL (either analog or digital), because it is necessary >to track speed variations, not just of the drive that you're using to >read a disk, but also of the drive that wrote it. Non-PLL data >separators work OK when the disk is both written and read under optimal >conditions, but are unreliable otherwise. > Actually it's pretty decent. However as you point out if you really need the ultimate in relaibility and are throwing crap media with loose drives in the system then a PLL may help somewhat. >The 9216, 9229 or 9239 are *highly* recommended, as they have a good >digital data separator. The 9229 and 9239 also contain write precomp >logic. The 9239 uses higher resolution timing for its PLL, so it may >perform better. yep, now just fine one. Me I gave up on floppies as even at 1.44Mb they are slow and small. IDE of CF offer more space and less interface headches. Allison From jlobocki at gmail.com Sun Sep 21 23:24:26 2008 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 23:24:26 -0500 Subject: a new BBS... In-Reply-To: References: <200809210014.m8L0EQl21114@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> Message-ID: comcast digital voice still permits you to make dialup modem calls from what i understand, im guessing some VOIP providers may work as well, since CDV is VOIP, so it may work. http://www.comcast.com/customers/faq/FaqDetails.ashx?ID=2789 On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 2:15 AM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 11:45 PM -0700 9/20/08, David Griffith wrote: >> >> Now as soon as I can figure out how to do POTS modem dialing through a >> cell phone, I'll call. > > How much longer will old fashioned modems continue to work with the evolving > phone systems that we have? When it was looking like I'd be forced to move > to Verizon FIOS a couple weeks ago, I made inquiries and learned that if you > have FIOS you can not use a modem. > > Zane > > > -- > | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | > | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | > | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | > +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ > | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | > | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | > | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | > From hpjimbondoris123 at dorisland.net Mon Sep 22 01:00:09 2008 From: hpjimbondoris123 at dorisland.net (hpjimbondoris123 at dorisland.net) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 00:00:09 -0600 Subject: need manuals (and additional 'wares) for THE CANON AS-100 Message-ID: <001501c91c78$7bd1a580$0f00a8c0@pentium4> C/PM86 Was available a good friend ported Microsoft Quick C to the as100. The manuals are nothing special mostly dos programming stuff. Jim From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Sep 22 01:38:07 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 23:38:07 -0700 Subject: Z80 home brew with FDC In-Reply-To: <0K7K005XDIRWOLP3@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0K7K005XDIRWOLP3@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <48D73D4F.9090805@brouhaha.com> Allison wrote: > It can also be done with a small amount of ttl. An analog PLL data separator using a 74LS629 VCO or the like is fairly easy to make, though you do have to be somewhat careful with the PCB layout. IIRC, such a design is given in the 179x app note. Building a good digital data separator out of TTL takes a fair number of parts, which is why it was so rarely done. The DPLL design in the 179x app note isn't very good. Eric From brain at jbrain.com Mon Sep 22 02:12:00 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 02:12:00 -0500 Subject: Teac FD-235J 2.88 MB SCSI floppy drive Message-ID: <48D74540.2070802@jbrain.com> I need one for a CMD FD repair, and the only source I can find wants $235.00 for it. Anyone know or another source or a compatible unit? Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Sep 22 02:13:47 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 00:13:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Teac FD-235J 2.88 MB SCSI floppy drive In-Reply-To: <48D74540.2070802@jbrain.com> References: <48D74540.2070802@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 22 Sep 2008, Jim Brain wrote: > I need one for a CMD FD repair, and the only source I can find wants > $235.00 for it. Anyone know or another source or a compatible unit? Would a run-of-the-mill Indy do as a donor machine? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Sep 22 02:26:49 2008 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 03:26:49 -0400 Subject: Teac FD-235J 2.88 MB SCSI floppy drive References: <48D74540.2070802@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <92B6CF1FF99F45C99668988993E41543@game> Ebay Item number: 160285565671, $125 or make offer. Getting cheaper anyway. Seller might want to do a deal since he has 200 of them! TZ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Brain" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Monday, September 22, 2008 3:12 AM Subject: Teac FD-235J 2.88 MB SCSI floppy drive >I need one for a CMD FD repair, and the only source I can find wants >$235.00 for it. Anyone know or another source or a compatible unit? > > Jim > > -- > Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) > brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and > Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com > From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Mon Sep 22 03:56:04 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 08:56:04 +0000 Subject: Single buffered Ethernet adapters Was: OS/2 Warp, was Re: PCjr Telnet Server In-Reply-To: <200809220037.m8M0b63Y067952@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200809181704.m8IH39gr038153@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200809220037.m8M0b63Y067952@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20080922085604.GC17452@usap.gov> On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 08:39:31PM -0400, Dave Mitton wrote: > On 9/18/2008 01:04 PM, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > >From: Paul Koning > >>>>>> "Ethan" == Ethan Dicks writes: > > > > Ethan> Back when NIC weren't $10 each, I remember the easiest to work > > Ethan> with (in terms of compatibility) were the NE2000 and clones > > Ethan> (NE1000 for 8-bit machines), the WD (later SMC) 8013, and the > > Ethan> 3C501, later displaced by the 3C509. ... > > > >Something to keep in mind is that the 3C501 is an extremely bad > >design. It is completely incapable of dealing with back to back > >packets -- even just two of them. And of course that's a perfectly > >normal situation in any plausible network. > > > >I remember working on DECnet when these toys came around, and the > >request came in to have a "go slow" feature in DECnet to support this > >single buffered design. The answer, of course, was "NFW". (Slowing > >down at the source wouldn't have helped because the network could > >easily cause clumping anyway...) > > > > paul > > The problem with the 3C501 (and the InterLAN and Ungermann-Bass, and > other I've forgotten about) Ethernet cards of this era where that > they only had one packet of memory on them. This sounds familiar, but not in terms of ISA NICs... ISTR some sort of similar issue with the DEQNA. Some of my friends in the Ohio State University CIS program "enhanced" some networking code on one or more of the UNIX servers in their group to the point that it could slam out 2-3 back-to-back packets before going back to gulp up more data to transmit. The problem was that someone else in the group had a MicroVAX that would reliably crash when this happened. IIRC, it was determined that the DEQNA couldn't juggle a received packet while a new one was coming in. I can't confirm that it's a single-buffered issue, but it sounds like it fits the symptoms. In the end, they had to rip out some if not all of their enhancements because equipment of the mid-1980s was expecting all the hosts to be so slow that there would always be time to deal with one packet before the next came in. Obviously later, things changed, but in 1986 or 1987, that wasn't a fatal assumption. > NetWare and NetBEUI driven networks hardly noticed this problem for > two reasons: 1) they were Request/Response protocols. They normally > did not expect additional packets until they responded, and 2) they > were talking to other PCs. Which simply couldn't generate traffic fast > enough. Exactly. The same was true for small VAXen, from what I saw. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 22-Sep-2008 at 08:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -70.6 F (-57.0 C) Windchill -114.6 F (-81.5 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 17.4 kts Grid 26 Barometer 676.5 mb (10761 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Sep 22 04:05:37 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 10:05:37 +0100 Subject: Single buffered Ethernet adapters Was: OS/2 Warp, was Re: PCjr Telnet Server In-Reply-To: <200809220037.m8M0b63Y067952@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <90B44EA7B29A4059B902603576C8F068@FLEXPC> Dave Mitton wrote: > With all due respect Paul, I've never asked another DECnet > implementation to "slow down", certainly not DECnet-RSTS. But don't > get me started on the VMS implementation of async DDCMP. I don't think that async DDCMP 9for Phase IV at least) fell into my purview, but I still have to ask .... Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From arcarlini at iee.org Mon Sep 22 04:18:04 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 10:18:04 +0100 Subject: Single buffered Ethernet adapters Was: OS/2 Warp, was Re: PCjr Telnet Server In-Reply-To: <20080922085604.GC17452@usap.gov> Message-ID: <2431546274A243F39411F7FA6B7FDB45@FLEXPC> Ethan Dicks wrote: > this happened. IIRC, it was determined that the DEQNA couldn't > juggle a received packet while a new one was coming in. I can't > confirm that it's a single-buffered issue, but it sounds like it > fits the symptoms. I think the DEQNA was DEC's first Qbus ethernet card. It certainly had some "issues" and I think that was a known one. I don't think it could be fixed, although I recall some version of VAX/VMS had a work around of sorts that allowed recovery (some SYSGEN parameter could be set to enable this recovery). The DEQNA was the first ethernet adapter for which VMS dropped support. I think this happened when the FFS driver interface came along. I presume that DELQA and DELQA-YM fixed all this up - I don't recall any complaints about those. > Exactly. The same was true for small VAXen, from what I saw. I wasn't sure what that meant in context. If it meant that small VAXen (of the time) couldn't generate enough traffic to flood an ethernet, I think that's true. The DTJ article about the DEMNA (or the XMI ethernet interface, in case I've misrememberd the name!) said somewhere in it that it was the first DEC ethernet adapter that could sustain maximum ethernet xfer rate. If it meant that other small VAXen could not cope with back to back packets, then I doubt that that is true. DEC did usually try to improve things as time went by :-) Antonio From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Mon Sep 22 07:05:49 2008 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 08:05:49 -0400 Subject: a new BBS... In-Reply-To: <20080922004338.GV2137@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <200809221203.m8MC3oof021162@keith.ezwind.net> On Sun, 21 Sep 2008 19:43:38 -0500, Chris Elmquist wrote: >On Sunday (09/21/2008 at 05:48PM -0600), bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >> Jim Leonard wrote: >>> >>> To be fair, if you are lucky enough to qualify for Verizon FIOS, you won't >>> ever want to use a modem. 30mb/s downstream to the house... >> Umm Upload rate is what ... BBS's send not suck data. ;) >However, you might still want to use a modem if you have a home security >system or a satellite TV receiver... all of which use an embedded modem >to "phone home". >VoIP (voice over IP) telephony is causing a lot of grief for these legacy >dialup technologies. >Chris For those with home businesses, be warned the TRANZ credit card machines are not happy with VOIP and want to be connected to a POTS line. Both my CC machine and my DirecTV boxes are connected to the analog side of my POTS/DSL line. They both autodial 1-800 numbers so the basic metered local only service works just fine. I use my cell phone or the "Business" ISDN line for all voice and fax calls. The other Bob From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Mon Sep 22 08:29:41 2008 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 09:29:41 -0400 Subject: a new BBS... In-Reply-To: <20080922004338.GV2137@n0jcf.net> References: <200809210014.m8L0EQl21114@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> <48D6DB8A.2070604@oldskool.org> <48D6DD60.6060701@jetnet.ab.ca> <20080922004338.GV2137@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <5f7d1b0e0809220629y42ee8729j8bb8181189440c20@mail.gmail.com> On Sun, Sep 21, 2008 at 8:43 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > However, you might still want to use a modem if you have a home security > system or a satellite TV receiver... all of which use an embedded modem > to "phone home". We have a security system that phones home with our Wide Open West VOIP system just fine. It probably depends on the quality of the modem and/or baud. I have an IT friend who did some experimentation with this as he has VOIP at home but still needs to be able to dial in to some server management cards on POTS in case the inter-tubes go down. He could get a carrier reliably but only at 9600 kbps, which is fine for a basic terminal session I guess. From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Mon Sep 22 08:59:09 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 10:59:09 -0300 Subject: a new BBS... References: <200809210014.m8L0EQl21114@h-68-165-246-86.mclnva23.covad.net> Message-ID: <0a0101c91cbb$bff24ec0$130c010a@portajara> > The system is an H-89 running CP/M 2.2 and Citadel v2.10 with a Hayes > Smartmodem 300. Blow the dust off those modems and give 'er a ring. Just a word: WOW! ;oO Alexandre http://www.tabajara-labs.com.br "raw data for raw nerves" :o) From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Sep 22 09:12:53 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 07:12:53 -0700 Subject: Z80 home brew with FDC In-Reply-To: <48D73D4F.9090805@brouhaha.com> References: <0K7K005XDIRWOLP3@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <48D73D4F.9090805@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: Hi Its a shame that the more easily available 555 chips don't work well into the Megaherts. They are easy to get and a pair of them would have made a reasonable separator. I have a schematic for the separator used on my Polymorphic computer. It uses another hard to get VCO chip. It uses a MC4024, an external charge pump, 96L02 oneshot and a few more TTLs. Dwight > Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 23:38:07 -0700 > From: eric at brouhaha.com > To: > Subject: Re: Z80 home brew with FDC > > Allison wrote: >> It can also be done with a small amount of ttl. > > An analog PLL data separator using a 74LS629 VCO or the like is fairly > easy to make, though you do have to be somewhat careful with the PCB > layout. IIRC, such a design is given in the 179x app note. > > Building a good digital data separator out of TTL takes a fair number of > parts, which is why it was so rarely done. The DPLL design in the 179x > app note isn't very good. > > Eric > _________________________________________________________________ Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn ?10 hidden secrets? from Jamie. http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!550F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008 From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Mon Sep 22 09:18:07 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 11:18:07 -0300 Subject: a new BBS... References: Message-ID: <0ae901c91cbe$a14d6e20$130c010a@portajara> > I'm paranoid enough that I didn't want to come in contact with any part of > the CRT at all. I wasn't worried about moving the yoke, I was worried > about it biting me. It's nice to know that with the power off there > wasn't any danger though. (Maybe I already told this history here, but here it is again) I never studied electronics. But when I worked some 4 or 5 Km from my house, I used to go back home walking and looking at different people on the streets at night. Near my work there was a very small electronics' school, and I wanted to take a look. Always passed by it and never had the courage to climb the stairs up. Someday I enrolled on that "basic radio & TV course" :o) The classes were boring. I didn't told the teacher I had prior experience with electronics (actually I was - at that time - working repairing and modifying MSX, Amiga and Sinclair computers). But one class was very interesting - how to deal with high voltage :o) The teacher assembled a rigged-up flyback transformer, with a pair of 2N3055 or like, and created something-shockingly that would give around 6000 volts of electrical shock. And told that no one would leave the room before taking a shock from the machine! :oD Imagine what a fuzz! :oD One by one, seeing the teacher and other students taking shocks and telling "it don't hurt!" tried and saw - there was NO pain! :oD A small itching on the finger, but no real pain involved. Ok, let's be serious here: Most of the shock you take from CRTs is more "oops" than electrical shock. A 26000 volts shock hurts, but not THAT bad. There isn't enough power to make your heart stop. If the monitor is turned on, the frequency is so high that the electrons travel on the top of your skin. If the monitor is off, there is NO enough charge on the tube, and it is discharged by a some megohms resitor to ground. Period. So it is not a life concern, but only the scare. Don't be scare of CRTs, they bite but don't hurt :o) Alexandre PS: I'm not a medical doctor, I don't warrant you of nothing I said here. If you put your tongue on the wrong flyback end and it hurts, I'm not responsible. Void where prohibited. Your milegage may vary. Batteries not incluided. If you die because anything I wrote here, the problem is enteirely yours. From blstuart at bellsouth.net Mon Sep 22 09:54:39 2008 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 14:54:39 +0000 Subject: High voltages (was a new BBS...) In-Reply-To: <0ae901c91cbe$a14d6e20$130c010a@portajara> References: <0ae901c91cbe$a14d6e20$130c010a@portajara> Message-ID: <092220081454.2113.48D7B1AF000AA5C80000084122230650629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> > Ok, let's be serious here: Most of the shock you take from CRTs is more > "oops" than electrical shock. A 26000 volts shock hurts, but not THAT bad. > There isn't enough power to make your heart stop. If the monitor is turned > on, the frequency is so high that the electrons travel on the top of your > skin. If the monitor is off, there is NO enough charge on the tube, and it > is discharged by a some megohms resitor to ground. Period. So it is not a > life concern, but only the scare. > > Don't be scare of CRTs, they bite but don't hurt :o) Electricity and the human body are a weird combination with often unexpected results. Lo these many years ago back in high school, I took my Yaesu HF rig to school to show the class a little about ham radio. After demoing things, I powered it down and opened it up to show them what was inside. Then I made the fateful move (well, not so fateful; I'm still here to tell the story) to open the cage with the transmitter final tubes. Things had been powered down for a while, about 20 minutes as I recall. I reached in to see if the tube was still hot and got close to the plate connection on the top. The tip of my finger was close to that and the side of my finger just past the outermost knuckle was close to the grounded cage. The shock threw me back against the wall behind me. When I looked, there were a couple of nice little "holes" in my finger. The one on the side looked as if something inside had blown outward. Of course, after the "what the....?" my first thought was, "guess the caps in the plate circuit hadn't discharged yet." > PS: I'm not a medical doctor, I don't warrant you of nothing I said > here. If you put your tongue on the wrong flyback end and it hurts, I'm not > responsible. Void where prohibited. Your milegage may vary. Batteries not > incluided. If you die because anything I wrote here, the problem is > enteirely yours. Ditto... BLS From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Mon Sep 22 10:00:01 2008 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul_Koning at Dell.com) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 10:00:01 -0500 Subject: High voltages (was a new BBS...) In-Reply-To: <092220081454.2113.48D7B1AF000AA5C80000084122230650629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> References: <0ae901c91cbe$a14d6e20$130c010a@portajara> <092220081454.2113.48D7B1AF000AA5C80000084122230650629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> Message-ID: > Ok, let's be serious here: Most of the shock you take from CRTs is more > "oops" than electrical shock. A 26000 volts shock hurts, but not THAT bad. > There isn't enough power to make your heart stop. If the monitor is turned > on, the frequency is so high that the electrons travel on the top of your > skin. Not true. CRT accelerator voltage is DC. It's generated from the deflection voltage which is certainly AC (though not all that high a frequency -- dozens of kHz perhaps, which might give just a little skin effect but not a lot), but that's all gone by the time it goes into that wire attached to the CRT. The low current capacity of that supply is what helps. (Of course that assumes the surprise from the jolt doesn't cause you to jump back and trip and break something...) The right answer is "don't fool with it, make sure it's discharged. paul From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Sep 22 10:43:42 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 08:43:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: a new BBS... In-Reply-To: <0ae901c91cbe$a14d6e20$130c010a@portajara> References: <0ae901c91cbe$a14d6e20$130c010a@portajara> Message-ID: > > Don't be scare of CRTs, they bite but don't hurt :o) > Alexandre, the only thing I've ever been "bit" by was 115V AC @400Hz. The pain isn't something you can describe in civlized company. My arm hurt for days. That incident is what my paranoia is calibrated against. From what I've been told, 60Hz AC or regular DC is a giggle in comparison. I'm not going to test the theory. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From mtapley at swri.edu Mon Sep 22 11:11:25 2008 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 11:11:25 -0500 Subject: apollo Domain Documents Message-ID: To interested folks, A pile of apollo Domain documentation to give away. The computer itself is "long gone", sorry. For pickup or packing/shipping * 1.2 or so, from San Antonio, TX (78254). --------- Wire-bound small handbooks: Unpacking and Installing your DN3000/DN4000 Personal Workstation and the DSP3000/DSP4000 Server (bound backwards, interestingly) Installing Domain Software Installing Domain/PCC in your DN3000 Workstation Using Domain/PCC for PC compatibility --------- 3-ring binders or inserts: Operating the DN3000/DN4000 Personal Workstation and the DSP3000/DSP4000 Server Domain/IX Text Processing Guide Domain Series 3000/Series 4000 Technical Reference Administering your DOMAIN System DOMAIN System Utilities DOMAIN Language Level Debugger Reference Configuring and Managing TCP/IP DOMAIN Graphics Primitive Resource Call Reference Programming with DOMAIN Graphics Primitives Administrator's Reference for DOMAIN/IX BSD4.2 DOMAIN/IX Programmer's Reference for BSD 4.2 DOMAIN/IX User's Guide DOMAIN System Command Reference DOMAIN Binder and Librarian Reference DOMAIN System Command Reference --------- Stapled paper documents: USing Domain/PCI for Interprocess Communication Domain/PC Coprocessor Software Release Document Using PC and AT Peripheral Boards with Domain/PCC --------- 2 * DC300A Data Cartridges, contents unknown. -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From mtapley at swri.edu Mon Sep 22 11:23:44 2008 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 11:23:44 -0500 Subject: Spoken for: apollo Domain Documents Message-ID: To interested folks, Spoken for (already). I'll re-post if this doesn't work out, but I think that's unlikely. -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 22 10:40:42 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 08:40:42 -0700 Subject: Z80 home brew with FDC In-Reply-To: References: <0K7K005XDIRWOLP3@vms046.mailsrvcs.net>, <48D73D4F.9090805@brouhaha.com>, Message-ID: <48D75A0A.32616.2913F36E@cclist.sydex.com> Is the problem that 9216's are unobtainium? How many do you need? Cheers, Chuck From imsaicollector at yahoo.com Mon Sep 22 11:51:09 2008 From: imsaicollector at yahoo.com (Michael Hart) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 09:51:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IMSAI 8080 on eBay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <197737.83853.qm@web57008.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Trust me you should get a good price even with out lots of pictures. Be careful about shipping over sea or to some other country. Make sure if you get paid by pay pal you wait 21 days when Pay pal actually allow you to take the money from your account I, the unwilling, was led by the unqualified, to do the unbelievable for so long with so little, that I attempted the impossible with nothing......" --- On Sat, 9/20/08, Mike wrote: From: Mike Subject: re: IMSAI 8080 on eBay To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Date: Saturday, September 20, 2008, 1:48 PM You are probably right. Its not like I'm trying to hide anything but I really don't know much about these. Other than the fact that it powers up that's about it. Picked it up local with the idea of "wow IMSAI" but realized it's a bit out of my realm of interest, I'll never actually use it, and I need the money to go to school this Fall. I'm more than happy to answer any questions anyone has though. -------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2008 13:03:19 -0500 From: "js at cimmeri.com" Subject: re: IMSAI 8080 on eBay To: cctech at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <48D3E967.2020104 at cimmeri.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed >From: "Mike" >Subject: IMSAI 8080 on eBay >To: >Message-ID: <7CA2A42621B44381A42EB354A4390329 at pal> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > >I've decided to sell my IMSAI 8080. It is in excellent condition and comes >with two Discus 8" floppy drives. It has been posted on eBay. >http://cgi.ebay.com/IMSAI-8080-with-8-Floppy-Drives_W0QQitemZ120307050411QQ c >mdZViewItem?hash=item120307050411&_trkparms=72%3A1205|39%3A1|66%3A2|65%3A12 | >240%3A1318&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14 > For a big ticket item, that ad is really lacking in pics and information. From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Sep 22 11:56:56 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 12:56:56 -0400 Subject: Z80 home brew with FDC In-Reply-To: References: <0K7K005XDIRWOLP3@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <48D73D4F.9090805@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <200809221256.56846.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 22 September 2008 10:12, dwight elvey wrote: > Hi > Its a shame that the more easily available 555 chips don't > work well into the Megaherts. They are easy to get and a > pair of them would have made a reasonable separator. > I have a schematic for the separator used on my Polymorphic > computer. It uses another hard to get VCO chip. It uses > a MC4024, an external charge pump, 96L02 oneshot and > a few more TTLs. > Dwight I may actually have some of those, they were used in certain versions of the c64 along with the 74LS629... > > Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2008 23:38:07 -0700 > > From: eric at brouhaha.com > > To: > > Subject: Re: Z80 home brew with FDC > > > > Allison wrote: > >> It can also be done with a small amount of ttl. > > > > An analog PLL data separator using a 74LS629 VCO or the like is fairly > > easy to make, though you do have to be somewhat careful with the PCB > > layout. IIRC, such a design is given in the 179x app note. > > > > Building a good digital data separator out of TTL takes a fair number of > > parts, which is why it was so rarely done. The DPLL design in the 179x > > app note isn't very good. > > > > Eric > > _________________________________________________________________ > Want to do more with Windows Live? Learn ?10 hidden secrets? from Jamie. > http://windowslive.com/connect/post/jamiethomson.spaces.live.com-Blog-cns!5 >50F681DAD532637!5295.entry?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_domore_092008 -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Mon Sep 22 12:07:48 2008 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 19:07:48 +0200 Subject: High voltages (was a new BBS...) In-Reply-To: <092220081454.2113.48D7B1AF000AA5C80000084122230650629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> References: <0ae901c91cbe$a14d6e20$130c010a@portajara> <092220081454.2113.48D7B1AF000AA5C80000084122230650629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> Message-ID: <021A406E788C4775819388CCEEFC1B44@xp1800> Current above 30mA at 50/60Hz is leathal.. 48V / 50Hz is presumed to be save and 110V DC is the highest save DC voltage. This according to Dutch savety regulations NEN3140. -Rik -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Brian L. Stuart Verzonden: maandag 22 september 2008 16:55 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: High voltages (was a new BBS...) > Ok, let's be serious here: Most of the shock you take from CRTs is > more "oops" than electrical shock. A 26000 volts shock hurts, but not THAT bad. > There isn't enough power to make your heart stop. If the monitor is > turned on, the frequency is so high that the electrons travel on the > top of your skin. If the monitor is off, there is NO enough charge on > the tube, and it is discharged by a some megohms resitor to ground. > Period. So it is not a life concern, but only the scare. > > Don't be scare of CRTs, they bite but don't hurt :o) Electricity and the human body are a weird combination with often unexpected results. Lo these many years ago back in high school, I took my Yaesu HF rig to school to show the class a little about ham radio. After demoing things, I powered it down and opened it up to show them what was inside. Then I made the fateful move (well, not so fateful; I'm still here to tell the story) to open the cage with the transmitter final tubes. Things had been powered down for a while, about 20 minutes as I recall. I reached in to see if the tube was still hot and got close to the plate connection on the top. The tip of my finger was close to that and the side of my finger just past the outermost knuckle was close to the grounded cage. The shock threw me back against the wall behind me. When I looked, there were a couple of nice little "holes" in my finger. The one on the side looked as if something inside had blown outward. Of course, after the "what the....?" my first thought was, "guess the caps in the plate circuit hadn't discharged yet." > PS: I'm not a medical doctor, I don't warrant you of nothing I > said here. If you put your tongue on the wrong flyback end and it > hurts, I'm not responsible. Void where prohibited. Your milegage may > vary. Batteries not incluided. If you die because anything I wrote > here, the problem is enteirely yours. Ditto... BLS From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 22 12:32:46 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 10:32:46 -0700 Subject: High voltages (was a new BBS...) In-Reply-To: <021A406E788C4775819388CCEEFC1B44@xp1800> References: , <092220081454.2113.48D7B1AF000AA5C80000084122230650629B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net>, <021A406E788C4775819388CCEEFC1B44@xp1800> Message-ID: <48D7744E.9900.297A8F0C@cclist.sydex.com> On 22 Sep 2008 at 19:07, Rik Bos wrote: > Current above 30mA at 50/60Hz is leathal.. 48V / 50Hz is presumed to > be save and 110V DC is the highest save DC voltage. This according to > Dutch savety regulations NEN3140. As I understand it, at lethal currents, the path of the current is just as important as the magnitude of the current. Any significant current passing through the trunk of the body is bad news. That's why the old electrician's advice of wearing shoes with rubber soles and keeping one hand in a back pocket when working on circuits known to present a hazard is just plain common sense. Be careful out there. Cheers, Chuck From brain at jbrain.com Mon Sep 22 12:38:53 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 12:38:53 -0500 Subject: Teac FD-235J 2.88 MB SCSI floppy drive In-Reply-To: References: <48D74540.2070802@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <48D7D82D.5060405@jbrain.com> David Griffith wrote: > On Mon, 22 Sep 2008, Jim Brain wrote: > > >> I need one for a CMD FD repair, and the only source I can find wants >> $235.00 for it. Anyone know or another source or a compatible unit? >> > > Would a run-of-the-mill Indy do as a donor machine? > > Well, if you're parting it out otherwise. I'd hate to kill a perfectly good Indy. Or did I misunderstand your question? Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From brain at jbrain.com Mon Sep 22 12:40:20 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 12:40:20 -0500 Subject: Teac FD-235J 2.88 MB SCSI floppy drive In-Reply-To: <92B6CF1FF99F45C99668988993E41543@game> References: <48D74540.2070802@jbrain.com> <92B6CF1FF99F45C99668988993E41543@game> Message-ID: <48D7D884.30409@jbrain.com> Teo Zenios wrote: > Ebay Item number: 160285565671, $125 or make offer. Getting cheaper > anyway. Seller might want to do a deal since he has 200 of them! > Thanks, might do. I checked eBay, but my terms must have not been correct. Jim From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Mon Sep 22 14:24:51 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 19:24:51 +0000 Subject: Z80 home brew with FDC In-Reply-To: <200809221256.56846.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <0K7K005XDIRWOLP3@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> <48D73D4F.9090805@brouhaha.com> <200809221256.56846.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20080922192451.GA24406@usap.gov> On Mon, Sep 22, 2008 at 12:56:56PM -0400, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Monday 22 September 2008 10:12, dwight elvey wrote: > > Hi > > Its a shame that the more easily available 555 chips don't > > work well into the Megaherts. They are easy to get and a > > pair of them would have made a reasonable separator. > > I have a schematic for the separator used on my Polymorphic > > computer. It uses another hard to get VCO chip. It uses > > a MC4024, an external charge pump, 96L02 oneshot and > > a few more TTLs. > > Dwight > > I may actually have some of those, they were used in certain versions of the > c64 along with the 74LS629... Where was there a 96L02 in the C-64? As it happens, I do have quite a few 96L02s lying around. I was just wondering what they were good for. Now I know. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 22-Sep-2008 at 19:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -73.3 F (-58.5 C) Windchill -118.0 F (-83.3 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 17.2 kts Grid