From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sun Jun 1 05:03:53 2008 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 12:03:53 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Transformer repairs In-Reply-To: <200806010231.WAA08372@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200805311130.55124.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200805311556.LAA05532@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200805311431.00163.pat@computer-refuge.org> <200806010231.WAA08372@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: On Sat, 31 May 2008, der Mouse wrote: >> I think that the power savings is worth the annoyances of a ban. > > What power savings? During the heating season, there is no savings for > me. None. This is because I, like much of Quebec, heat with > electricity, so any power saved by light bulbs will just get drawn by And one thing to keep in mind: Incadescent bulbs consist of glass and metal, whereas gas discharge lamps like the CFLs contain lots of mercury and other very dangerous things and must be disposed of as hazardous waste (not even just electronic waste!). Another thing: CFLs need a so much higher energy effort during manufacturing than ordinary light bulbs. The latter can be built at one place, the former needs electronic components (mostly from China, consider the energy required for their production), a PCB (energy? toxic waste?), mercury (!!), a fluorescent glass coating (toxicity?), a plastic housing (petrol based, recycling?), and so on... And consider the energy and effort needed to recycle all these things. And: LEDs aren't so much better in this context! What has never been published (surely for the fact that the CFLs would be considered much worse than light bulbs...) is the total toxicity and energy balance from manufacturing of either lamp until its final disposal... So much for this off-topic thread... I wouldn't consider replacing the optical transducer lamp with an LED... Christian From lehmann at ans-netz.de Sun Jun 1 05:25:48 2008 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 12:25:48 +0200 Subject: Introduction In-Reply-To: References: <200805301700.m4UH0Cma062464@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20080531084127.dfbaf4a6.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Message-ID: <20080601122548.90eb8a92.lehmann@ans-netz.de> dwight elvey wrote: > > Hi > My German isn't that good. If the step rate is the problem, > I did see a couple routines that were creating steps. One > was RAMP. > Setting the controllers step rate is always done on just one > port. I forget which. All you should really need to do is find > all the out's to that port and set the step to the auto rate. > For my code, it was only in two places. > Dwight Hm - I'm not sure what "auto stepping" means. Normally, the controller sends a "step" signal (after the direction is set) to the harddrive and the harddrive responds with a "seek complete" signal - and the controller sends so many step signals and waits for the seek complete signal (before the controller sends the next step signal) until the wanted track is reached. That is how it works, or? So what is "auto step" here? -- Oliver Lehmann http://www.pofo.de/ http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ From dave06a at dunfield.com Sun Jun 1 07:36:20 2008 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 07:36:20 -0500 Subject: PET 2001-8 progress... In-Reply-To: <4840D971.1030807@msu.edu> References: <579D0CE52D0@dunfield.com> Message-ID: > > If you have a storage scope, you should be able to trigger on the > > SYNC signal at the CPU and catch the last few opcode fetches - walking > > the data and address bus signals and writing them down will reveal > > the last opcode executed and the address from which it was executed. > > > Alas, I don't. My 'scope's an ancient Tektronix 561A. Works great, but > it's pretty simple. (And maybe a bit underpowered for this particular > task...) You can still capture the first few cycles from power-up. If you scope has a delay function that can make it even more useful. Connect external trigger to RESET (and trigger from it) Connect one channel to select for the device you are interested in. Use the other channel to probe. With a nice bright trace, you should be able to see the probe state when the select goes low after hitting reset - this is where the delay comes in handy, allowing you to "move away" from reset. You can also drive RESET with a pulse, causing the trace to repeat which makes it *much* easier to see - I'd disconnect the monitor while doing this as RESET may reset the video circuitry and result in unhealty waveforms to the monitor. You could also build a "1 bit TTL storage scope" with a very small amount of logic - latch data to a LED when strobed. I'd consider allowing for positive/negative trigger, and repeat/single-shot controls. Not as nice as a scope since you won't see signal problems, but it works for walking a bus to figure out what is transpiring on a select. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From dave06a at dunfield.com Sun Jun 1 07:40:29 2008 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 07:40:29 -0500 Subject: Good Composite->VGA converters for classic computers (& video games...) In-Reply-To: <4841BCBA.1070109@msu.edu> Message-ID: > Anyone out there use a composite->VGA upscaler for their classic > computing and/or gaming needs? > > I've been looking to shave a bit of space off my workbench and just use > a single SVGA monitor instead of that and an old composite monitor. I > picked up one of these: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000XXZQWQ and > while it works great for certain systems (the C64 and NES, for example) > it gets really confused by the composite signal coming from other > systems (like the Apple II and Sega Genesis) and is unusable with them. > > Anyone have any recommendations? Since I like to have a second monitor on my desk anyway, I picked up a cheap 15" LCD TV with VGA input - it's not the best VGA monitor but adaquate for my secondary display, and has composite, 'S' and RF inputs which seem work quite well with my vintage hardware. As a bonus it has a remote, switches between inputs and does audio. Regards, Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From bert at brothom.nl Sun Jun 1 07:21:58 2008 From: bert at brothom.nl (Bert Thomas) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2008 14:21:58 +0200 Subject: Come Work at Bell Labs! In-Reply-To: <51ea77730805311804p2f484f8ax68e70637697458ce@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730805311804p2f484f8ax68e70637697458ce@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48429466.5090008@brothom.nl> Jason T schreef: > Some great shots of old terminals and other mysteries of the Labs here: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHBHEWyZ1Xw What an amazing large glasses is that guy wearing! From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sun Jun 1 07:21:33 2008 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 08:21:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Good Composite->VGA converters for classic computers (& video games...) In-Reply-To: <4841BCBA.1070109@msu.edu> References: <4841BCBA.1070109@msu.edu> Message-ID: <200806011236.IAA20204@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Anyone out there use a composite->VGA upscaler for their classic > computing and/or gaming needs? I use one with my PlayStation 2. I dunno how much help it'll be, though. I haven't used it with very much else (I think I once used it with something else and it worked, but I can't recall what, so that's not much help). I also can't help you find another one. I got mine as a gift from the fellow who got me started in console games, when I went to Norway (gave me a PSone at the same time). I don't know where he got it. It also runs disturbingly hot, even though I normally run it with the case open. I took a picture of the back of the case, which is the only place on the outside of the case where I see any kind of identification markings at all; I took another picture of the visible side of the PCB with the case open. (The other piece of the case is made of the same yellow plastic as the part you can see, and has nothing of any help on it - nothing on the outside and nothing but fab-date markings on the inside.) See ftp.rodents.montreal.qc.ca:/mouse/misc/video-upscaler-case.jpg and .../video-upscaler-component.jpg. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Jun 1 08:15:03 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2008 09:15:03 -0400 Subject: Big Board I: micro cornucopia & user disk In-Reply-To: <4816E7A801E545F1@averell.mail.tiscali.sys> References: <4816E7A801E545F1@averell.mail.tiscali.sys> (added by postmaster@tiscali.it) Message-ID: <200806010915.04687.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 30 May 2008 17:08, Enrico Lazzerini wrote: > Hi at all, > > i'm looking for all articles and software for the big board I. > > ( > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson_Big_Board) I'm familiar with the Bigboard, it was essentially the same as the Xerox 820 (_not_ the 820-II!). > There was a magazine called Micro Cornucopia > > ( > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_Cornucopia) I had a pretty complete set of those, but they're not currently accessible to me. > Some issues are scannered here below: > > c turerId=980&strManufacturerDescription=Micro+Cornucopia> > http://www.aceware.iinet.net.au/acms/BooksByManufacturerList.asp?lngManufac >t urerId=980&strManufacturerDescription=Micro+Cornucopia Cool. I will look at those links later... > The issues i'm looking for are from the 1st to the 22th. Sorry I can't help with that at the present time. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From billdeg at degnanco.com Sun Jun 1 09:17:34 2008 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2008 10:17:34 -0400 Subject: Looking for PDP 11/40 Docs for M7856, 7891, or M9312 In-Reply-To: <200806011042.m51Ag0kY088202@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20080601101143.0338ee88@smtp.degnanco.com> Looking for PDP 11/40 Docs for M7856, 7891, or M9312 CARD SLOT POSITIONs empty 1 -- (IF PRESENT WOULD BE USED FOR A 7239) empty 2 -- (IF PRESENT WOULD BE USED FOR A 7298) 7232 3 A-F (U WORD) 7231 4 A-F (DATA PATHS) 7233 5 A-F (IR DECODE) 7235 6 A-F (STATUS) 7236 7 A-F (TIMING) 7236 8 A-F (MEMORY MANAGER) 672A 9 D (GRANT CONT.) UNIBUS 9 A-B (RIGHT SIDE OF UNIBUS) UNIBUS 10 A-B (LEFT SIDE OF UNIBUS) M7856 10 F-C (RS232 WITH 19.2 OPTION?) G7273 11 C-D 7891 12 A-F (64k MEMORY) M9312 13 A-B (ROM CARD) 672A 13 D (GRANT CONT.) In short I have an upgraded to 64K system, the memory holds, I am attempting to interface with a terminal and need to confirm baud rate switch settings, etc. The docs on the 11/40 I have are limited to an original 8K core system. thanks. Bill From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Jun 1 11:22:00 2008 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 09:22:00 -0700 Subject: Looking for PDP 11/40 Docs for M7856, 7891, or M9312 In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20080601101143.0338ee88@smtp.degnanco.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20080601101143.0338ee88@smtp.degnanco.com> Message-ID: Have you tried bitsavers (bitsavers.org)? On Jun 1, 2008, at 7:17 AM, B. Degnan wrote: > Looking for PDP 11/40 Docs for M7856, 7891, or M9312 > > CARD SLOT POSITIONs > > empty 1 -- (IF PRESENT WOULD BE USED FOR A 7239) > empty 2 -- (IF PRESENT WOULD BE USED FOR A 7298) > 7232 3 A-F (U WORD) > 7231 4 A-F (DATA PATHS) > 7233 5 A-F (IR DECODE) > 7235 6 A-F (STATUS) > 7236 7 A-F (TIMING) > 7236 8 A-F (MEMORY MANAGER) > 672A 9 D (GRANT CONT.) > UNIBUS 9 A-B (RIGHT SIDE OF UNIBUS) > UNIBUS 10 A-B (LEFT SIDE OF UNIBUS) > M7856 10 F-C (RS232 WITH 19.2 OPTION?) > G7273 11 C-D > 7891 12 A-F (64k MEMORY) > M9312 13 A-B (ROM CARD) > 672A 13 D (GRANT CONT.) > > In short I have an upgraded to 64K system, the memory holds, I am > attempting to interface with a terminal and need to confirm baud > rate switch settings, etc. The docs on the 11/40 I have are limited > to an original 8K core system. > > thanks. > Bill > > > > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 1 12:00:11 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2008 10:00:11 -0700 Subject: OS/2 problems In-Reply-To: <200806010946.m519kFbo086920@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200806010946.m519kFbo086920@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4842732B.25406.5444701@cclist.sydex.com> Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 23:09:30 -0400 From: "Teo Zenios" > Anybody happen to have disks for OS/2 2.1? I tried installing it today on > my PS/2 65SX and disk #8 is bad. not sure if anything past that is good or > not. I've got 'em. 3.5" only, though, so if you need 5.25" versions, you're on your own. I also have some CSD updates for it. Email me with an email that will accept large attachments and I'll get what you need to you. o I tried installing OS/2 1.1EE onto the same machine but fdisk could > not find any drives. Since that machine is SCSI does OS/2 expect ESDI > drives? If you've got MFM, IDE or ESDI, it's all the same to OS/2 (the basic port-level interface is close enough to be inter-operable for OS/2). You can even use SCSI, as long as there's an INT 13 BIOS extension installed to access it, but you have to add the driver for the SCSI controller to your boot diskettes (I've got a 386 running OS/2 2.1 with a DTC 3280 SCSI board). I also have the developer's kit for OS/2 2.x, which, with the CSDs comes to a lot of diskettes, not to mention the pile of documentation. Also MASM and MSC for OS/2. What I don't have is the network version of OS/2 2.x. Does anyone have that one? Cheers, Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jun 1 12:06:41 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 10:06:41 -0700 Subject: Introduction In-Reply-To: <20080601122548.90eb8a92.lehmann@ans-netz.de> References: <200805301700.m4UH0Cma062464@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20080531084127.dfbaf4a6.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <20080601122548.90eb8a92.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Message-ID: > From: lehmann at ans-netz.de > > dwight elvey wrote: > >> >> Hi >> My German isn't that good. If the step rate is the problem, >> I did see a couple routines that were creating steps. One >> was RAMP. >> Setting the controllers step rate is always done on just one >> port. I forget which. All you should really need to do is find >> all the out's to that port and set the step to the auto rate. >> For my code, it was only in two places. >> Dwight > > Hm - I'm not sure what "auto stepping" means. Normally, the controller > sends a "step" signal (after the direction is set) to the harddrive and > the harddrive responds with a "seek complete" signal - and the controller > sends so many step signals and waits for the seek complete signal (before > the controller sends the next step signal) until the wanted track is > reached. That is how it works, or? So what is "auto step" here? > > Hi All MFM drive will take steps at some particular rate. The st251 had what is called auto stepping as well. In this mode, one could send the steps at a very fast rate and the drive would save them into a counter. It would then auto ramp the steps to a rate much faster than single steps could be done. I think it use the highest order head address but I don't recall exactly how this was done. A quick search on the web should find it. Most of the newer MFM drives support autostepping and it is the perferred stepping for these drives. You do not need to do single step seeks for the steps as you state, you just set the destination cylinder, direction and send steps at the rate specified by the drive. You don't look for "seek complete" between steps, you just send steps at the rate specified. When you believe you reached the desired cylinder by the number of steps, you look for "seek complete" and not before. The ST251 can except controller rate stepping or auto stepping. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Change the world with e-mail. Join the i?m Initiative from Microsoft. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?source=EML_WL_ChangeWorld From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Jun 1 13:04:27 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 11:04:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Good Composite->VGA converters for classic computers (& video games...) In-Reply-To: <4841BCBA.1070109@msu.edu> References: <4841BCBA.1070109@msu.edu> Message-ID: <44050.71.139.37.220.1212343467.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Josh wrote: > Anyone out there use a composite->VGA upscaler for their classic > computing and/or gaming needs? [...] and about a specific model: > it gets really confused by the composite signal coming from other > systems (like the Apple II and Sega Genesis) and is unusable with them. The problem with the Apple II is that it does NOT produce NTSC video, but rather something close enough to fool an analog television set or monitor. The timings are deliberately wrong, especially the frequency and phase relationships of the color subcarrier to the horizontal sync. Converters use commodity NTSC decoder chips that get confused by signals with significant deviations from standard NTSC. From lproven at gmail.com Sun Jun 1 13:08:54 2008 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 19:08:54 +0100 Subject: OS/2 problems In-Reply-To: <004601c8c39b$69c9a8f0$c600a8c0@game> References: <002e01c8c394$e91c20d0$c600a8c0@game> <004601c8c39b$69c9a8f0$c600a8c0@game> Message-ID: <575131af0806011108l6ed0fa80xe424556d5b233eef@mail.gmail.com> 2008/6/1 Teo Zenios : > Just seems odd DOS FDISK had no > issues finding and formatting the drive but 1.1EE kept giving me errors. No, not really. DOS uses the BIOS for disk access, so as long as the controller is PC BIOS-compatible, DOS will see it and drive it. Protect-mode OSs cannot use the BIOS, so they need to access the hardware directly. This includes NT, Unix and OS/2. Back in the day, DOS was a lot less fussy about hardware than any of the protect-mode OSs. I still have some MCA hardware that only works in DOS and Windows 3. :?( -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jun 1 13:28:25 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 11:28:25 -0700 Subject: Introduction In-Reply-To: References: <200805301700.m4UH0Cma062464@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20080531084127.dfbaf4a6.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <20080601122548.90eb8a92.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Message-ID: > From: dkelvey at hotmail.com> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org> Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 10:06:41 -0700> Subject: RE: Introduction> > > > > > > From: lehmann at ans-netz.de> >> > dwight elvey wrote:> >> >>> >> Hi> >> My German isn't that good. If the step rate is the problem,> >> I did see a couple routines that were creating steps. One> >> was RAMP.> >> Setting the controllers step rate is always done on just one> >> port. I forget which. All you should really need to do is find> >> all the out's to that port and set the step to the auto rate.> >> For my code, it was only in two places.> >> Dwight> >> > Hm - I'm not sure what "auto stepping" means. Normally, the controller> > sends a "step" signal (after the direction is set) to the harddrive and> > the harddrive responds with a "seek complete" signal - and the controller> > sends so many step signals and waits for the seek complete signal (before> > the controller sends the next step signal) until the wanted track is> > reached. That is how it works, or? So what is "auto step" here?> >> >> > Hi> All MFM drive will take steps at some particular rate. The st251 had what is> called auto stepping as well. In this mode, one could send the steps at a > very fast rate and the drive would save them into a counter. It would then> auto ramp the steps to a rate much faster than single steps could be done.> I think it use the highest order head address but I don't recall exactly> how this was done. A quick search on the web should find it.> Most of the newer MFM drives support autostepping and it is the perferred> stepping for these drives.> You do not need to do single step seeks for the steps as you state, you> just set the destination cylinder, direction and send steps at the rate specified> by the drive. You don't look for "seek complete" between steps, you just> send steps at the rate specified. When you believe you reached the desired> cylinder by the number of steps, you look for "seek complete" and not> before.> The ST251 can except controller rate stepping or auto stepping.> Dwight> Hi I looked it up. If the pulse for the step is less than 0.5ms it assume the buffered or auto step. I was confusing compensation with the head selects that also change with the ST412 standard. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Change the world with e-mail. Join the i?m Initiative from Microsoft. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?source=EML_WL_ChangeWorld From lehmann at ans-netz.de Sun Jun 1 13:45:02 2008 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 20:45:02 +0200 Subject: Introduction In-Reply-To: References: <200805301700.m4UH0Cma062464@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20080531084127.dfbaf4a6.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <20080601122548.90eb8a92.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Message-ID: <20080601204502.41e39daf.lehmann@ans-netz.de> dwight elvey wrote: > Hi > I looked it up. If the pulse for the step is less than 0.5ms it assume > the buffered or auto step. I was confusing compensation with the > head selects that also change with the ST412 standard. > Dwight Do you know if this changed between ST251(-0) and ST251-1? Because -0 drives are working but very hard to find - -1 are easier to find. -- Oliver Lehmann http://www.pofo.de/ http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ From tosteve at yahoo.com Sun Jun 1 14:25:33 2008 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 12:25:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Beehive B103 terminals available near Kansas City, MO Message-ID: <305149.32502.qm@web51612.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Please contact the person below, I am just relaying this information: ---------------------------------------------------------------------- nrpsbx01 at comcast.net I have a couple of Beehive B103 terminals that were made for InfoRex corp that I would like to find homes for. They are not currently working properly, although they were working prior to being stored. The CRTs display characters, but it is random and flashing. Probably just need a thorough cleaning. I'm offering them for no charge other than packing and shipping .... although I found that packaging and shipping costs are significant. The ideal situation would be if someone could pick them up. I'm in the Kansas City MO area. Interested parties may contact me at nrpsbx01 at comcast.net. From lehmann at ans-netz.de Sun Jun 1 14:33:22 2008 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 21:33:22 +0200 Subject: Introduction In-Reply-To: <20080601204502.41e39daf.lehmann@ans-netz.de> References: <200805301700.m4UH0Cma062464@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20080531084127.dfbaf4a6.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <20080601122548.90eb8a92.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <20080601204502.41e39daf.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Message-ID: <20080601213322.4be7fe1b.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Oliver Lehmann wrote: > dwight elvey wrote: > > > Hi > > I looked it up. If the pulse for the step is less than 0.5ms it assume > > the buffered or auto step. I was confusing compensation with the > > head selects that also change with the ST412 standard. > > Dwight > > Do you know if this changed between ST251(-0) and ST251-1? Because -0 > drives are working but very hard to find - -1 are easier to find. btw. I can configure something like "ramp mode" for my controller for different preconfigured harddisk types or set it by hand - could that be the "auto setting" you are talking about? Example configuration for a Microscience HH-1090 disk with the config utilty: List of Drive-Parameters: |No.| Name | cyls; hds; secs; prae; ramp; ----------------------------------------------- | 1 |NEC D5126 | 615; 4; 18; 128; 12; | 2 |NEC D5146 | 615; 8; 18; 128; 12; | 3 |ROBOTRON VS | 820; 6; 18; 820; 1; | 4 |ROB K5504.50| 1024; 5; 18; 1024; 1; ----------------------------------------------- Which Typ ? (No./n/q) n PAR --- Drivetype: ' ' PAR --- Cylinders: 100 Heads: 2 Sectors: 18 Praecomp: 100 Ramp: 1 Parameter for Drive ok ? (y/l/p/q)p Parameters: b(Drivetype(ASCII)) c(Number of Cylinders) h(Number of Heads) s(Number of Sectors) p(Begin Cylinder of Praecompensation) r(Distance of Cylinders for Ramp Mode) e (End of Input) q (Jump to the End of 'sa.format') Parameter: (b/c/h/s/p/r)value,e,q bHH-1090 Parameter: (b/c/h/s/p/r)value,e,q c1314 Parameter: (b/c/h/s/p/r)value,e,q h7 Parameter: (b/c/h/s/p/r)value,e,q s18 Parameter: (b/c/h/s/p/r)value,e,q p1314 Parameter: (b/c/h/s/p/r)value,e,q r1 Parameter: (b/c/h/s/p/r)value,e,q e as you can see there is an option "Distance of Cylinders for Ramp Mode" -- Oliver Lehmann http://www.pofo.de/ http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Jun 1 14:49:36 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2008 14:49:36 -0500 Subject: Good Composite->VGA converters for classic computers (& video games...) In-Reply-To: <44050.71.139.37.220.1212343467.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <4841BCBA.1070109@msu.edu> <44050.71.139.37.220.1212343467.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4842FD50.7030704@oldskool.org> Eric Smith wrote: > The problem with the Apple II is that it does NOT produce NTSC video, > but rather something close enough to fool an analog television set or > monitor. The timings are deliberately wrong, especially the frequency > and phase relationships of the color subcarrier to the horizontal > sync. While I knew about the slightly goofy signal, the phrase "DELIBERATELY wrong" is new. Why was it wrong on purpose? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jun 1 14:57:27 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 12:57:27 -0700 Subject: Introduction In-Reply-To: <20080601204502.41e39daf.lehmann@ans-netz.de> References: <200805301700.m4UH0Cma062464@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20080531084127.dfbaf4a6.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <20080601122548.90eb8a92.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <20080601204502.41e39daf.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Message-ID: > Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 20:45:02 +0200 > From: lehmann at ans-netz.de > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Introduction > > dwight elvey wrote: > >> Hi >> I looked it up. If the pulse for the step is less than 0.5ms it assume >> the buffered or auto step. I was confusing compensation with the >> head selects that also change with the ST412 standard. >> Dwight > > Do you know if this changed between ST251(-0) and ST251-1? Because -0 > drives are working but very hard to find - -1 are easier to find. > > Hi I don't thinks so. as far as I know all ST251's supported auto stepping. There might be a minor difference when single stepping using the millisecond timing. As I recall they needed something on the order of 8 or 10 milliseconds. One might be a little faster. When I was playing with mine, the original drive was 6 milliseconds. Way to fast for the ST251. I then switches to using the auto stepping, since then the controller didn't need to know anything about the step rate. As I recall, the WD1000 will use auto stepping if you select 0 for the step rate. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Give to a good cause with every e-mail. Join the i?m Initiative from Microsoft. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?souce=EML_WL_ GoodCause From Gary at realtimecomp.com Sun Jun 1 15:01:43 2008 From: Gary at realtimecomp.com (Gary L. Messick) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:01:43 -0700 Subject: OS/2 problems In-Reply-To: References: <200806010946.m519kFbo086920@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <133BC8E140C69C43A16C952F7C27A6970DC896@server1.RealTime.local> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] > On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis > Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 10:15 AM > Subject: Re: OS/2 problems > What I don't have is the network version of OS/2 2.x. Does anyone > have that one? > > Cheers, > Chuck Chuck, I'm sure I have it, I have a ton of OS/2 stuff, but I'm just packing up for a move. Ping me again after the 10 or so, and I'll get it to you. Gary From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jun 1 15:12:23 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 13:12:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Introduction In-Reply-To: <20080601122548.90eb8a92.lehmann@ans-netz.de> References: <200805301700.m4UH0Cma062464@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20080531084127.dfbaf4a6.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <20080601122548.90eb8a92.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Message-ID: <20080601130912.H72172@shell.lmi.net> Although it is prob'ly irrelevant to this particular problem, IIRC, buffered seek was one of the major differences between the ST506 and ST412 intrerfaces. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun Jun 1 16:06:47 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2008 22:06:47 +0100 Subject: Sick Atari STE wisdom sought Message-ID: <1212354407.12629.38.camel@elric> I've got an Atari 1040STE, which was previously working (well, after I blanket-resoldered the PSU - always a notorious spot for dry joints). After leaving it for a while, I came back to find it had locked up with the desktop showing, but not responding to keys or mouse. On rebooting I get a blank white screen - locked, but just blank - and the floppy drive doesn't spin up. Nor do I get keyclicks when I press the keys. What could I look at first? With the ST come up with the keyboard unplugged, or will it just sit there in silence? Gordon From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Jun 1 16:08:21 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 14:08:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple II timing vs. NTSC (was Re: Good Composite->VGA converters for classic computers (& video games...) In-Reply-To: <4842FD50.7030704@oldskool.org> References: <4841BCBA.1070109@msu.edu> <44050.71.139.37.220.1212343467.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <4842FD50.7030704@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <42213.71.139.37.220.1212354501.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> I wrote: > The problem with the Apple II is that it does NOT produce NTSC video, > but rather something close enough to fool an analog television set or > monitor. The timings are deliberately wrong, especially the frequency > and phase relationships of the color subcarrier to the horizontal > sync. Jim wrote: > While I knew about the slightly goofy signal, the phrase "DELIBERATELY > wrong" is new. Why was it wrong on purpose? NTSC requires that the horizontal rate be 227.5 times the color subcarrier frequency, and phase-locked to it. The color carrier thus alternates in phase 180 degrees on consecutive lines within a field. The Apple II horizontal rate is 288.0 times the color subcarrier frequency, so that the color phase is the same on every line. This is also why every 65th cycle of the processor clock is longer than the other 64. The Apple timing is derived from a 14.31818 MHz oscillator, four times the color burst frequency. For NTSC there should be 910 cycles per scan line (227.5 * 4). The CPU clock is normally the oscillator frequency divided by 14, to get 1.023 MHz. However, if that timing was used consistently, the color phase would alternate as per the NTSC spec. Instead, every 65th processor cycle is divided by 16, rather than 14, so that there are a total of 912 oscillator cycles per scan line, to get the constant color phase. This makes the average CPU clock slightly lower, at 1.020 MHz. (14.31318 MHz * 65) / (64 * 14 + 16) This caused terrible problems for anyone that wanted to use an Apple II as a source for video broadcast; the signal couldn't be used even with most genlocks. I worked in a studio that used an Apple II with a VB3 Microkeyer from Video Associate Labs. This was a two-board set that installed in the Apple II to provide a genlock and proc amp. It gave a 100% compliant video signal by replacing a fair bit of the Apple II circuitry. You had to pull about a dozen TTL chips out of the Apple and replace them with ribbon cables to the two cards. One card went into a slot, and the other sat above the power supply. Naturally this wouldn't work on an Apple IIe. Many years later Apple introduced their own video overlay card. Rather than modifying the circuitry of the base Apple, it completely replicated the video circuitry on the card, but provided standard NTSC timing. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Jun 1 16:11:39 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 14:11:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Introduction In-Reply-To: <20080601130912.H72172@shell.lmi.net> References: <200805301700.m4UH0Cma062464@dewey.classiccmp.org> <20080531084127.dfbaf4a6.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <20080601122548.90eb8a92.lehmann@ans-netz.de> <20080601130912.H72172@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <57553.71.139.37.220.1212354699.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Grumply Ol' Fred wrote: > Although it is prob'ly irrelevant to this particular problem, IIRC, > buffered seek was one of the major differences between the ST506 and ST412 > intrerfaces. That's my recollection as well. On early drives, the point of buffered seek was to allow the electronics on the drive to use an acceleration profile specifically tailored to the stepper motor and actuator mass of the drive. Before buffered seek, the time to seek n tracks was exactly n times the track-to-track time. Buffered seek improved the seek performance considerably for longer seeks. From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Jun 1 16:32:10 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 14:32:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple II timing vs. NTSC (was Re: Good Composite->VGA converters for classic computers (& video games...) In-Reply-To: <42213.71.139.37.220.1212354501.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <4841BCBA.1070109@msu.edu> <44050.71.139.37.220.1212343467.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <4842FD50.7030704@oldskool.org> <42213.71.139.37.220.1212354501.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <35302.71.139.37.220.1212355930.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> I wrote: > The Apple II horizontal rate is 288.0 times the color subcarrier ^^^^^ 228.0 > frequency, so that the color phase is the same on every line. From coredump at gifford.co.uk Sun Jun 1 16:45:11 2008 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2008 22:45:11 +0100 Subject: Transformer repairs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48431867.3070800@gifford.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >> Williams presents this circuit (and many pages of very interesting >>reading, as he describes the process by which he arrived at his final >>result...ideas, testing, failures, successes, optimization, etc) in the >>absolutely fantastic book entitled "Analog Circuit Design: Art, Science, >>and Personalities". I strongly recommend that book. > > Thanks. I will certainly check it out. I've never heard of said book before. I can also recommend the book. I have a copy that I got, I think, from the Oxfam bookshop at the top of Park Street, Bristol (Tony probably remembers that one). I can also recommend the other books in the EDN series, The Art And Science Of Analog Circuit Design, by Jim Williams and Troubleshhoting Analog Circuits, by Bob Pease. -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From grant at stockly.com Sun Jun 1 17:21:21 2008 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2008 14:21:21 -0800 Subject: WOPR sells on eBay In-Reply-To: <484043C8.8070101@gmail.com> References: <5f7d1b0e0805300657q5be03c80h6a5edb441c6e1712@mail.gmail.com> <200805301418.m4UEIiPG016080@floodgap.com> <004101c8c279$7772c220$66584660$@com> <484043C8.8070101@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0K1T00LD423J1950@msgmmp-1.gci.net> At 10:13 AM 5/30/2008, you wrote: >Bob Armstrong wrote: >>>Plays great games though. Chess, tic-tac-toe, global thermonuclear war ... >> Cheap, too - only $1,500 on eBay... That's less than a PDP-8 :-) > >1500? Hmm, maybe there's a market for selling reproductions of >non-working computers that have been previously used in movies... > >Although "All systems are fully operational" has me curious ;) I can't imagine making a WOPR for $1500... From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jun 1 17:29:33 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 15:29:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WOPR sells on eBay In-Reply-To: <0K1T00LD423J1950@msgmmp-1.gci.net> References: <5f7d1b0e0805300657q5be03c80h6a5edb441c6e1712@mail.gmail.com> <200805301418.m4UEIiPG016080@floodgap.com> <004101c8c279$7772c220$66584660$@com> <484043C8.8070101@gmail.com> <0K1T00LD423J1950@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Message-ID: <20080601152703.I72172@shell.lmi.net> > >Although "All systems are fully operational" has me curious ;) > I can't imagine making a WOPR for $1500... The WOPR itself wouldn't cost too much, but that big monitor? . . . and how about those remote peripherals? The USB missile launcher needs to be beefed up a lot. From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Jun 1 17:53:10 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2008 17:53:10 -0500 Subject: Apple II timing vs. NTSC (was Re: Good Composite->VGA converters for classic computers (& video games...) In-Reply-To: <42213.71.139.37.220.1212354501.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <4841BCBA.1070109@msu.edu> <44050.71.139.37.220.1212343467.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <4842FD50.7030704@oldskool.org> <42213.71.139.37.220.1212354501.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <48432856.9080307@oldskool.org> Eric Smith wrote: > The Apple II horizontal rate is 228.0 times the color subcarrier > frequency, so that the color phase is the same on every line. Was there a reason for this design decision? (Excellent explanation, btw, thanks!) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sun Jun 1 18:17:51 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 16:17:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Removing panels from a DEC rack, and MicroVax current draw... Message-ID: <219771.84088.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Well, just when I had thought that I'd had DEC racks figured out, I tried to disassemble this one. Now, every other DEC rack I've worked on, you just have to lift up (sometimes pretty hard) on the side panels, and they pop off. Not this one. This is a MicroVax 3900, that I have decided, likely against my better judgement, to install in my second floor computer room. Before it goes in there, I need to give it a good cleaning, and I'm going to bring it up in pieces. So far, I've gotten the RA90's out, removed the top, back and front, and now I'm trying to remove the BA213 from the rack. And, in order to do this, I need to take off the little latch/metal tab that holds the front door shut. It's held on with two screws, that can't be reached unless I remove that side panel. Upon closer inspection, I see that these side panels are somewhat different than the ones I'm used to. They are made of plastic! Yes, while they have the same white-edged, black side appearance, they are made of a thick, bombproof plastic rather than the usual metal. They won't lift off, I've put a fair amount of force on them, and they just won't pop off. I can't see any kind of retaining screw or tab, and I'm at a loss. Accoding to the back of the top panel, this is a Model 655QF-AZ, series H9644. Any ideas? Another thing I wonder about, is just how much juice will this sucker need? I have two RA90's, and the MicroVax 3900 system (BA213 chassis), with one RA70 in it, and a decent population of cards. The power distribution unit that came with the cabinet sports a 30A power connector, but I know that I should be able to run this off a regular 15A circuit. Question being, can I run anything else off that circuit too? -Ian From grant at stockly.com Sun Jun 1 20:18:18 2008 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2008 17:18:18 -0800 Subject: WOPR sells on eBay In-Reply-To: <20080601152703.I72172@shell.lmi.net> References: <5f7d1b0e0805300657q5be03c80h6a5edb441c6e1712@mail.gmail.com> <200805301418.m4UEIiPG016080@floodgap.com> <004101c8c279$7772c220$66584660$@com> <484043C8.8070101@gmail.com> <0K1T00LD423J1950@msgmmp-1.gci.net> <20080601152703.I72172@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <0K1T00L07AAG1B90@msgmmp-1.gci.net> At 02:29 PM 6/1/2008, you wrote: > > >Although "All systems are fully operational" has me curious ;) > > I can't imagine making a WOPR for $1500... > >The WOPR itself wouldn't cost too much, but that big monitor? >. . . and how about those remote peripherals? > >The USB missile launcher needs to be beefed up a lot. You might be able to build it under $1500, but I was responding more to the comment about there being a market for items like this. When I started with the Altair kit I thought it would have a sale price of $499. I couldn't even sell an empty case for that. : ) All of those 703 (hand counted and packed per kit! : ( ) individual parts in the Altair 8800 are cheap...alone. : ) From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Sun Jun 1 20:35:53 2008 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 18:35:53 -0700 Subject: Tandy (Radio Shack) 6000 rescue In-Reply-To: <637079.2153.qm@web82706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <4840387D.1020009@bitsavers.org> <637079.2153.qm@web82706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Thanks to Jay for getting be back on the list. Please please please preserve the software and documentation and make them available to the world, if at all possible. If Al doesn't want it, I'll take some of it at least. Various Xenix versions and the Xenix C development kit are (or at least were) available online, but I haven't seen Fortran and Cobol. I think I've got multiplan here, but until I get my machine working again, it'll stay on disk. Save dumps of the drives in case there's something interesting on them. It's a shame that the old FTP sites that contained software for this beast appear to be entirely gone. These were one the most common Unix machines in existence. Now you'd think they never existed. My 6000HD is currently not functioning, and I haven't had time to attempt repairs. If you are planning to get rid of one or more of the 6000s I might be interested. Where are they located? Check to see if any have the Arcnet card. If so, rejoice. If you are planning to keep them, digital photos or scans of each of the cards, showing wire "debugging" jumpers in place would be valuable. I have been told that the printed schematics of the 68000 card do not match the jumpered version, and I suspect that a dangling wire is the cause of my problems. Its destination is not entirely apparent, since the solder blob came off with the wire. Apparently the joint was never good. Who puts jumpers on the component side of a board anyway? Eric On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 1:39 PM, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > I picked up the first of two loads of Tandy model 6000 stuff today. The documentation alone filled up more than half of my Suburban. > > There are service notes with some schematics along with docs > on Fortran, Cobol, Xenix, etc. Around 10 disk units, some the > Bernoulli type. Next week I'll pick up the two machines, terminals, printers and floppy drives. > > Anyone out there with one of these machines? > > Al, do you want all of the documentation and software? > > I plan on keeping very little of this stuff, I just did not want > to see it get scrapped. There are some 8" floppy drives > I'll keep, along with about 20 Data General 10 MB cartridges. > > If anyone is looking for something, let me know. > > Bob > From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Sun Jun 1 20:52:11 2008 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 18:52:11 -0700 Subject: OS/2 problems In-Reply-To: <002e01c8c394$e91c20d0$c600a8c0@game> References: <002e01c8c394$e91c20d0$c600a8c0@game> Message-ID: Sorry, I don't have any v2 disks. Just 1.0, 1.3, 3 and 4. You probably need for find a driver for your SCSI interface. Often that means copying the boot disk (or the second disk, depending upon the OS/2 version), freeing up some by getting rid of a driver you don't need, adding your driver, and editing config.sys to add your driver. What interface is it? I may have a driver in my collection... Through 3.0 drivers were 16bit model, but not always downward compatible, so if you can't find a 1.1 driver, you can try the 2.1 driver. Eric On Sat, May 31, 2008 at 8:09 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: > Anybody happen to have disks for OS/2 2.1? I tried installing it today on my PS/2 65SX and disk #8 is bad. not sure if anything past that is good or not. > > Also I tried installing OS/2 1.1EE onto the same machine but fdisk could not find any drives. Since that machine is SCSI does OS/2 expect ESDI drives? > > TZ > > From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Sun Jun 1 22:48:03 2008 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 20:48:03 -0700 Subject: C <-> ASM translation problem In-Reply-To: <20080531130015.2f61d66d.lehmann@ans-netz.de> References: <20080531130015.2f61d66d.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Message-ID: This is just a guess since I'm unfamiliar with the compiler and haven't touched the processor since the 80s, but, off the top of my head, this looks like an optimization to me. Does the value in rr2 get used in the instruction sequence following this? If so, it probably means that a later statement or a part of the same state operates on the same data. ipc.ip_addr.l = *(unsigned long)(uap->addr.l)&0x7F00FFFF; First off, I'm surprised that even an old compiler will dereference an non pointer type and know what type of data is stored in the pointer. The other issue breaking my brain is that you're making me recall that the register order follows the memory order with r5 being the lower order word of rr4. Ouch. Maybe my brain is getting too used to modern conveniences... Here's an overly complex interpretation of each instruction in more modern c. /* 0006de: 35a2 0004 ldl rr2,rr10(#$0004) */ register unsigned long rr2=uap->addr.l; /* 0006e2: 9424 ldl rr4,rr2 */ register unsigned long rr4=rr2; /* 0006e4: 0704 7f00 and r4,#$7f00 */ rr4 &= 0x7f00ffff; /* 0006e8: 5d04 8000 0004 ldl $8000+$0x4,rr4 */ ipc.ip_addr.l = rr4; Which means that rr2 still contains uap->addr.l; So I would guess this line is ipc.ip_addr.l = uap->addr.l & 0x7f00ffff; and the following line is... something_else = {some other operation on uap->addr.l} ; Seems like something an 80s era peephole optimizer would do if it could guarantee that uap != &ipc. Once an optimizer gets involved, recovering the original code can get difficult and you may need to settle for functional equivalents. Another possibility is that the original code was something like this, ipc.ip_addr.l = ( another_variable = uap ->addr.l ) & 0x7f00ffff; although I can't imagine why someone would write this. (And the compiler would need to guarantee that "another_variable" and ipc.ip_addr.l were not the same thing (i.e. another_variable is an actual variable and not a dereferenced pointer). Eric On Sat, May 31, 2008 at 4:00 AM, Oliver Lehmann wrote: > Hi, > > As I promissed here comes my first question ;) > > While writing several C files for the WEGA/ZEUS kernel out of the > disassembled objects (with unresolved symbols marked as external) I came > across a piece of code I can't get to reproduce when compiling C. > > The original object contains: > > 0006de: 35a2 0004 ldl rr2,rr10(#$0004) > 0006e2: 9424 ldl rr4,rr2 > 0006e4: 0704 7f00 and r4,#$7f00 > 0006e8: 5d04 8000 0004 ldl $8000+$0x4,rr4 > > I tried to reproduce it: > > ipc.ip_addr.l = *(unsigned long)(uap->addr.l)&0x7F00FFFF; > > Which generates: > > 0008 35a2 0004 59 ldl rr2,rr10(#4) > 000c 0702 7f00 60 and r2,#32512 > 0010 5d02 8000* 61 ldl _ipc+4,rr2 > 0014 0004* > > which looks for me functional the same... > > I also tried: > > ipc.ip_addr.l = *(unsigned long *)(uap->addr.l)&0x7F00FFFF; > > Which generates: > > 0010 35a2 0004 60 ldl rr2,rr10(#4) > 0014 1424 61 ldl rr4, at rr2 > 0016 0704 7f00 62 and r4,#32512 > 001a 5d04 8000* 63 ldl _ipc+4,rr4 > > Which looks "better" but isn't the same as the original because the > adress of rr2 gets loaded into rr4 first, not rr2 itself. > > I'm a bit lost because I tried several different */&-pointer stuff to get > this as it is in the original object without success. the elements > ip_addr and addr are both of type saddr_t which is declare as follows: > > typedef union > { > caddr_t l; > struct > { > unsigned left; > unsigned right; > } half; > } saddr_t; /* segmented address with parts */ > > rr4 itself gets later overwritten in both codes - my code and the > original object - it is not reserved for an internal C-variable. Maybe > someone from you can help me here? > > -- > Oliver Lehmann > http://www.pofo.de/ > http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ > From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sun Jun 1 23:11:50 2008 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2008 21:11:50 -0700 Subject: Tandy (Radio Shack) 6000 rescue - photos In-Reply-To: References: <4840387D.1020009@bitsavers.org> <637079.2153.qm@web82706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48437306.8070403@sbcglobal.net> Eric J Korpela wrote: > Thanks to Jay for getting be back on the list. > > Please please please preserve the software and documentation and make > them available to the world, if at all possible. If Al doesn't want > it, I'll take some of it at least. Various Xenix versions and the > Xenix C development kit are (or at least were) available online, but I > haven't seen Fortran and Cobol. I think I've got multiplan here, but > until I get my machine working again, it'll stay on disk. Save dumps > of the drives in case there's something interesting on them. It's a > shame that the old FTP sites that contained software for this beast > appear to be entirely gone. These were one the most common Unix > machines in existence. Now you'd think they never existed. > > My 6000HD is currently not functioning, and I haven't had time to > attempt repairs. If you are planning to get rid of one or more of the > 6000s I might be interested. Where are they located? Check to see if > any have the Arcnet card. If so, rejoice. > > If you are planning to keep them, digital photos or scans of each of > the cards, showing wire "debugging" jumpers in place would be > valuable. I have been told that the printed schematics of the 68000 > card do not match the jumpered version, and I suspect that a dangling > wire is the cause of my problems. Its destination is not entirely > apparent, since the solder blob came off with the wire. Apparently > the joint was never good. Who puts jumpers on the component side of a > board anyway? > > Eric > > I have a photo of the manuals here: http://www.dvq.com/tandy/maunals.JPG More photos, close-ups of manuals and some hardware here: http://www.dvq.com/tandy/ There is Fortran, Pascal, Cobol, Basic, work processing, and many types of business software. Some are just the manuals, some have the disk in the binders. There's a box of binders full of 8" floppies, and a box of Bernoulli cartridges. Also, there's some stuff for the Models 2, 12, and 16 thrown in the lot. Al is not interested in the stuff so I need to find a home, hopefully someone in the Silicon Valley area (it's located at my house in Santa Cruz, CA). Shipping this stuff won't be easy. I can take things to a shipping store though. I have not yet picked up the two machines and the big line printer. Should have it all by next Wed. I have no plans on keeping any of it. The lot included 25, 10 meg Data General cartridges, some Nova 3 documentation, and two National Semi 4004 boards. That's the stuff I was interested in. I can't store the stuff forever, it's not in a good place, so the faster I dispose of it the better. Bob From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Jun 2 00:13:21 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 22:13:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple II timing vs. NTSC (was Re: Good Composite->VGA converters for classic computers (& video games...) In-Reply-To: <48432856.9080307@oldskool.org> References: <4841BCBA.1070109@msu.edu> <44050.71.139.37.220.1212343467.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <4842FD50.7030704@oldskool.org> <42213.71.139.37.220.1212354501.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <48432856.9080307@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <49985.71.139.37.220.1212383601.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Eric Smith wrote: > The Apple II horizontal rate is 228.0 times the color subcarrier > frequency, so that the color phase is the same on every line. Jim wrote: > Was there a reason for this design decision? It was done so that the same bit pattern that produces green on one scan line also produces green on the next scan line, rather than purple. This is especially important for the low-res graphics mode, but not doing it would also have made the high-res mode harder to use. Eric From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Mon Jun 2 00:37:28 2008 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 22:37:28 -0700 Subject: Tandy (Radio Shack) 6000 rescue - photos In-Reply-To: <48437306.8070403@sbcglobal.net> References: <4840387D.1020009@bitsavers.org> <637079.2153.qm@web82706.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <48437306.8070403@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: Well, I'm local enough I think that I'd be willing to pick up the lesser of a) the amount that can fit in my car and b) the amount I can bring home and remain married. That might be enough to make your life easier. Let's talk off list and make arrangements.... On Sun, Jun 1, 2008 at 9:11 PM, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > Eric J Korpela wrote: >> >> Thanks to Jay for getting be back on the list. >> >> Please please please preserve the software and documentation and make >> them available to the world, if at all possible. If Al doesn't want >> it, I'll take some of it at least. Various Xenix versions and the >> Xenix C development kit are (or at least were) available online, but I >> haven't seen Fortran and Cobol. I think I've got multiplan here, but >> until I get my machine working again, it'll stay on disk. Save dumps >> of the drives in case there's something interesting on them. It's a >> shame that the old FTP sites that contained software for this beast >> appear to be entirely gone. These were one the most common Unix >> machines in existence. Now you'd think they never existed. >> >> My 6000HD is currently not functioning, and I haven't had time to >> attempt repairs. If you are planning to get rid of one or more of the >> 6000s I might be interested. Where are they located? Check to see if >> any have the Arcnet card. If so, rejoice. >> >> If you are planning to keep them, digital photos or scans of each of >> the cards, showing wire "debugging" jumpers in place would be >> valuable. I have been told that the printed schematics of the 68000 >> card do not match the jumpered version, and I suspect that a dangling >> wire is the cause of my problems. Its destination is not entirely >> apparent, since the solder blob came off with the wire. Apparently >> the joint was never good. Who puts jumpers on the component side of a >> board anyway? >> >> Eric >> >> > > I have a photo of the manuals here: > > http://www.dvq.com/tandy/maunals.JPG > > More photos, close-ups of manuals and some hardware here: > > http://www.dvq.com/tandy/ > > There is Fortran, Pascal, Cobol, Basic, work processing, and many types of > business software. Some > are just the manuals, some have the disk in the binders. There's a box of > binders full of 8" floppies, > and a box of Bernoulli cartridges. Also, there's some stuff for the Models > 2, 12, and 16 thrown in the lot. > > Al is not interested in the stuff so I need to find a home, hopefully > someone in the Silicon Valley area > (it's located at my house in Santa Cruz, CA). Shipping this stuff won't be > easy. I can take things to > a shipping store though. > > I have not yet picked up the two machines and the big line printer. Should > have it all by next Wed. > > I have no plans on keeping any of it. The lot included 25, 10 meg Data > General cartridges, some Nova 3 > documentation, and two National Semi 4004 boards. That's the stuff I was > interested in. I can't store the stuff > forever, it's not in a good place, so the faster I dispose of it the better. > > Bob > > > > From jobs at gmx.de Sun Jun 1 08:41:31 2008 From: jobs at gmx.de (jobs at gmx.de) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2008 15:41:31 +0200 Subject: HP 9000 Pascal 3.2 : HFS on HP9133L Message-ID: <4842A70B.6070502@gmx.de> I was just browsing the web for some advice about HP Pascal 3.25. You were mentioning it while looking for HFS initialisation. Were you successful?. I have Pascal 3.2 or BASIC 6.4. Both support HFS. Did you find PASCAL 3.25 ??? Greetings. Jo ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dr. Joachim B?hrmann-Schulz Hardyweg 8 14055 Berlin jobs at gmx.de From michaelgreen42 at comcast.net Sun Jun 1 13:05:23 2008 From: michaelgreen42 at comcast.net (Mike) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 2008 11:05:23 -0700 Subject: Micron XCeed Color Card for Mac SE/30 near Seattle WA In-Reply-To: <200806011703.m51H3KgZ092494@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200806011703.m51H3KgZ092494@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <258C95173E7D45AFADF90EF80F247CDC@odin> I've got what I believe to be a complete Micron Xceed setup for a Mac SE/30. I know these are extremely rare and thought I would pass it by you guys to see if I get any offers. I'd really rather avoid the eBay cesspool, so seeing what the highest offer I can get would be. -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of cctech-request at classiccmp.org Sent: Sunday, June 01, 2008 10:03 AM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 58, Issue 2 Send cctech mailing list submissions to cctech at classiccmp.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctech or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to cctech-request at classiccmp.org You can reach the person managing the list at cctech-owner at classiccmp.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of cctech digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: PET 2001-8 progress... (Josh Dersch) 2. RE: Introduction (dwight elvey) 3. Re: DEC Brochures - already scanned? (Al Kossow) 4. RE: Tandy (Radio Shack) 6000 rescue (Geoff Reed) 5. Re: Introduction (Oliver Lehmann) 6. C <-> ASM translation problem (Oliver Lehmann) 7. Wang the Perverted (schwepes at moog.netaxs.com) 8. RE: Transformer repairs (Ade Vickers) 9. Thanks! RE:XT Diagnostic ROM and POSTcard (Andrew Lynch) 10. Re: Thanks! RE:XT Diagnostic ROM and POSTcard (Jim Leonard) 11. RE: Introduction (dwight elvey) 12. Re: Wang the Perverted (Jim Battle) 13. Re: Wang the Perverted (Roy J. Tellason) 14. Synertek KTM-3/80 -- 2 questions (Peter) 15. RE: Transformer repairs (dwight elvey) 16. Old style DEC 5-1/4" "pop panel" needed (will trade for 10 1/2") (Bob Armstrong) 17. RE: Thanks! REXT Diagnostic ROM and POSTcard (Andrew Lynch) 18. video game cartridges (David Griffith) 19. Re: video game cartridges (Chris M) 20. Re: video game cartridges (Mr Ian Primus) 21. Re: video game cartridges (Mr Ian Primus) 22. Re: video game cartridges (David Griffith) 23. Good Composite->VGA converters for classic computers (& video games...) (Josh Dersch) 24. Big Board I: micro cornucopia & user disk (Enrico Lazzerini) 25. Come Work at Bell Labs! (Jason T) 26. OS/2 problems (Teo Zenios) 27. Re: OS/2 problems (Teo Zenios) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 21:52:01 -0700 From: Josh Dersch Subject: Re: PET 2001-8 progress... To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Message-ID: <4840D971.1030807 at msu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Dave Dunfield wrote: >> Got out my ancient oscilloscope and did a bit of probing and got a >> little more info: >> >> On power up, the CPU reset line is held low for ~1 sec, then goes high. >> At this point if I look at the address/data lines, I can see a very >> brief burst of activity and then nothing at all (it's during this >> activity that a few characters on screen change). After this activity, >> all address lines are high. IRQ & NMI lines are high. CPU is being >> clocked throughout all of this, clock rate seems to be correct. >> > > Assuming that it is clocked and has been reset correctly, there are > generally only two reasons that a CPU stops running (fetching opcodes): > > 1) It is being held in a hardware wait state. > > Check the state of the RDY line on the 6502 and if it > is asserted, backtrace through the circuit to find out why. > RDY is being held high, which I believe is correct (my understanding from reading 6502 specs indicates this is held low to halt the CPU...) > 2) It executes an instruction which causes it to stop > > Usually a HALT instructionor of some sort or other, there are sometimes > undocumented opcodes which cause this behaviour as well - A bit of > net searching should turn up details on the undocumented opcodes. > > There are generally two reasons why a processor would execute an opcode > to shut itself off: > > 1) On purpose > > Usually while waiting for an interrupt - given that you PET hasn't > even cleared it's screen, I doubt this is the case. > > 2) By executing "random" code > > Can be caused by: > - Bad ROM - actual code gets corrupted > - Bad RAM - stack failure results in "return" to random address > - Bad bus buffers - hardware failure resulting in corruption in the > address or data buses. > - Bad decode logic - no device or multiple memory devices being > selected when only one should be. > > I've seen a least two 2001's with bad ROM chips. And a number of PETs > with bad RAM - I'd suspect one of these two. > On a whim, I ran the machine without any of the ROMs installed and I get identical behavior to what I was already seeing (brief CPU activity, then nothing). I suspect the CPU is just reading garbage and something's broken between the CPU & RAM. The CPU's probably halting on a bogus instruction... I'm going to do some investigation in that area. Thanks for the suggestions... Josh > If you have a storage scope, you should be able to trigger on the > SYNC signal at the CPU and catch the last few opcode fetches - walking > the data and address bus signals and writing them down will reveal > the last opcode executed and the address from which it was executed. > > Alas, I don't. My 'scope's an ancient Tektronix 561A. Works great, but it's pretty simple. (And maybe a bit underpowered for this particular task...) > Look at the opcode that was executed to see what exactly caused the > CPU to stop. > > Try this a couple of times and see if the CPU is always stopping in > the same place. Scope the select lines and note *which* ROM was > selected for the last opcode fetch, or in the case of a "wild" access, > which ROM was selected last before it stopped. > > If the address where that opcode was fetched in within the ROM, get > the PET rom binaries and see if it's "supposed" to be there - a bit > of disassembly around that address should tell you if the code is > real code, or some random bit of data that the processor wandered > off into. If you can read the PET ROMs (I made an adapter to stuff > them into my homebuild EPROM programmer) you can compare against the > binaries to check the entire ROM content - The PET roms are not standard > pinouts - but you can make an adapter to put a normal ROM in the > socket - IIRC I needed a TTL chip to provide an extra select - I've > got photos on my site of a PET that I had to repair this way. > > If the address is NOT within the ROM, trigger on the ROM select and > see what the last opcode executed from ROM was - if it was RTS or > RTI I would strongly suspect a RAM problem. It might also be a jump > indirect (same suspicion). As above, look at the code contained at > this address and see it if "makes sense" as a valid place to be > executing. > > > With a decent scope you can get several fetches on the screen, and > therefore determine the opcode/address for the last few instructions > executed - If you can't get any of that to make sense, try single- > shot trigger and capture the first few instructons executed - see if > they make sense and match the ROM. > > With a bit of poking around you should be able to determine what the > processor is doing at the time it went insane - hopefully at some point > the "ah-ha" light will go on. > > Regards, > Dave > > -- > dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield > dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com > com Collector of vintage computing equipment: > http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html > > > ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 21:01:27 -0700 From: dwight elvey Subject: RE: Introduction To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" > From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk > Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 21:09:13 +0100 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Introduction > > > On 30 May, 2008, at 18:00, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > >> >> Message: 9 >> Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 17:11:02 +0200 >> From: Oliver Lehmann >> Subject: Introduction >> To: Classic Computers Mailing List > > Welcome Oliver. > > >> The system runs a Z8001 with 3 MMUs and Z80-peripherial ICs (PIO, >> SIO...) >> It also has 2 SIOs for 4 terminal connections, and one PIO to >> connect the >> WDC. The system also has two furhter PIO chips to establish a >> connection >> to the 8Bit system. The system runs with up to 4MB of DRAM but it >> might >> run with more RAM with self-made RAM modules. > > ---snip--- > > When I retire I might get around to getting myself a Z8001 system if > there's any still around by then. I am kept busy at work programming > Apple Macs and at home restoring a 1962 mainframe computer (ICT 1301) > and restoring/maintaining my old cars (2 Daimlers, 2 Rovers, a Land > Rover, a Jaguar and a BMW). > Hi One can still get a Olivetti M20 but mose I've seen come up on the Italian eBay. These don't have a MMU but instead use a ROM to decode segements. It is limited to 512K of RAM. It does have one segement where the data and instruction are mapped to two different physical memories, giving a total of 128K within one segement. The M20 can run the version of CP/M that DRI came up with. It has a C compilers as well asn an assembler. It can also have a hard disk connected but the original controllers are hard to find. It is software compatable with the WD1000 controller. I use a TRS80 controller and a ST251 drive. I did need to modify the code to deal with stepping differences between the original olivetti drive and the ST251. I just use the auto stepping. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Give to a good cause with every e-mail. Join the im Initiative from Microsoft. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?souce=EML_WL_ GoodCause ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 22:44:26 -0700 From: Al Kossow Subject: Re: DEC Brochures - already scanned? To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <4840E5BA.1040005 at bitsavers.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > Wow, that must have been a brutal scanning job. Paper cutter and a sheet feeder. Biggest challenge was dealing with thin paper. I've switched to a different brand of scanner that can handle it better now to deal with the data books. ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 23:34:33 -0700 From: "Geoff Reed" Subject: RE: Tandy (Radio Shack) 6000 rescue To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Message-ID: <078801c8c2e8$63aea410$6a01a8c0 at liberator> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" I still miss my tandy 6000 I had several years ago... very nice box as long as you had spare HDD's for the external storage unit. ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 08:41:27 +0200 From: Oliver Lehmann Subject: Re: Introduction To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <20080531084127.dfbaf4a6.lehmann at ans-netz.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII dwight elvey wrote: > It is software compatable with the WD1000 controller. I use > a TRS80 controller and a ST251 drive. I did need to modify > the code to deal with stepping differences between the original > olivetti drive and the ST251. I just use the auto stepping. > Dwight Can you tell me a bit more about this? I can connect MFM drives to my WDC too but I've problems with ST251-1 while ST251-0 are working. I think that the -1 is probably somewhat different then the -0 but I'm not sure where to look at in the WDC firmware (source is 86K) for what to change... http://pofo.de/P8000/misc/sources/EAW/Firmware/Firmware_-_MON16-WDC/WDC/wdc. firm.s I can switch something in the firmware from 40MHz to 41,4MHz but neither this helps nor do I know what this means.... -- Oliver Lehmann http://www.pofo.de/ http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ ------------------------------ Message: 6 Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 13:00:15 +0200 From: Oliver Lehmann Subject: C <-> ASM translation problem To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <20080531130015.2f61d66d.lehmann at ans-netz.de> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Hi, As I promissed here comes my first question ;) While writing several C files for the WEGA/ZEUS kernel out of the disassembled objects (with unresolved symbols marked as external) I came across a piece of code I can't get to reproduce when compiling C. The original object contains: 0006de: 35a2 0004 ldl rr2,rr10(#$0004) 0006e2: 9424 ldl rr4,rr2 0006e4: 0704 7f00 and r4,#$7f00 0006e8: 5d04 8000 0004 ldl $8000+$0x4,rr4 I tried to reproduce it: ipc.ip_addr.l = *(unsigned long)(uap->addr.l)&0x7F00FFFF; Which generates: 0008 35a2 0004 59 ldl rr2,rr10(#4) 000c 0702 7f00 60 and r2,#32512 0010 5d02 8000* 61 ldl _ipc+4,rr2 0014 0004* which looks for me functional the same... I also tried: ipc.ip_addr.l = *(unsigned long *)(uap->addr.l)&0x7F00FFFF; Which generates: 0010 35a2 0004 60 ldl rr2,rr10(#4) 0014 1424 61 ldl rr4, at rr2 0016 0704 7f00 62 and r4,#32512 001a 5d04 8000* 63 ldl _ipc+4,rr4 Which looks "better" but isn't the same as the original because the adress of rr2 gets loaded into rr4 first, not rr2 itself. I'm a bit lost because I tried several different */&-pointer stuff to get this as it is in the original object without success. the elements ip_addr and addr are both of type saddr_t which is declare as follows: typedef union { caddr_t l; struct { unsigned left; unsigned right; } half; } saddr_t; /* segmented address with parts */ rr4 itself gets later overwritten in both codes - my code and the original object - it is not reserved for an internal C-variable. Maybe someone from you can help me here? -- Oliver Lehmann http://www.pofo.de/ http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ ------------------------------ Message: 7 Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 07:49:45 -0400 (EDT) From: schwepes at moog.netaxs.com Subject: Wang the Perverted To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII My name is Bob and this is my first post. What caused me to join this discussion group was a wang computer that came into my possession that had two 5 1/4 diskette drives, one internal and the other external. It seemed to require its own peculiar start up disk and I suspect it would have to be a formatted 160 or 180 kbit job. Finding out information on this thing only seemed to lead to dead ends. I cannot get greater specifics as I stored the thing in an inconvenient place when I took it off the workbench. respectfully bob schwier ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 14:12:56 +0100 From: "Ade Vickers" Subject: RE: Transformer repairs To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Message-ID: <045701c8c320$0ae50490$0b01a8c0 at solutionengineers.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1250" Tony Duell wrote: > > OK, let's talk failures ;) If you've got any links which give a > > sensible description of how a switcher works, I'd be most grateful. > > I don;'t know of any useful on-line info. There's a pretty > poor article in this month's Elektor magazine (which might > give you some idea), and there's a reasonable description in > the _second edition_ of The Art of Electronics (a book which > you ought to have anyway...) I have the AofE 2nd edn (I think it's 2nd edn, anyway), I'll take a look. Cheers, Ade. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.2 - Release Date: 28/05/2008 00:00 ------------------------------ Message: 9 Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 09:18:31 -0400 From: "Andrew Lynch" Subject: Thanks! RE:XT Diagnostic ROM and POSTcard To: Message-ID: <000001c8c320$d2ac34d0$a903a8c0 at andrewdesktop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi All, I just wanted to say "Thank you" to everyone who helped me fix this classic IBM XT motherboard with the Diagnostic ROM image and the settings for the AWARD POSTcard. Long story short, I replaced a 74LS245 and a faulty DRAM chip and now the board boots fine. Of course half the fun is finding what actually works, what doesn't, what appears to be broken but actually works, what is broken but appears to be working, etc. You know the drill, I am sure. Fixing an old broken 16 bit VGA card which works in an 8 bit ISA slot helped a lot. As did the old style PC/XT style floppy drive controller... So anyway, it's fixed and I booted MS-DOS 5.0 and the Advanced IBM Diagnostics from a 5.25" floppy disk drive. So I think we are there. THANKS! Andrew Lynch PS, BTW the XT Diagnostic ROM image seems to work best when burned into a 2764 EPROM. I tried various other types of EPROM but the 2764 seems to work best. I think IBM did some weird remapping of their custom Mask BIOS ROM... ------------------------------ Message: 10 Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 09:44:56 -0500 From: Jim Leonard Subject: Re: Thanks! RE:XT Diagnostic ROM and POSTcard To: General at mail.mobygames.com, "Discussion at mail.mobygames.com":On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Message-ID: <48416468.5090300 at oldskool.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Andrew Lynch wrote: > Long story short, I replaced a 74LS245 and a faulty DRAM chip and now the > board boots fine. The DRAM I could probably figure out myself, but how did you determine the 74LS245 was at fault? (I, too, have a 5150 that won't boot) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ ------------------------------ Message: 11 Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 07:45:00 -0700 From: dwight elvey Subject: RE: Introduction To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Hi My German isn't that good. If the step rate is the problem, I did see a couple routines that were creating steps. One was RAMP. Setting the controllers step rate is always done on just one port. I forget which. All you should really need to do is find all the out's to that port and set the step to the auto rate. For my code, it was only in two places. Dwight > From: lehmann at ans-netz.de > > dwight elvey wrote: > >> It is software compatable with the WD1000 controller. I use >> a TRS80 controller and a ST251 drive. I did need to modify >> the code to deal with stepping differences between the original >> olivetti drive and the ST251. I just use the auto stepping. >> Dwight > > Can you tell me a bit more about this? I can connect MFM drives to my WDC > too but I've problems with ST251-1 while ST251-0 are working. I think > that the -1 is probably somewhat different then the -0 but I'm not sure > where to look at in the WDC firmware (source is 86K) for what to > change... > http://pofo.de/P8000/misc/sources/EAW/Firmware/Firmware_-_MON16-WDC/WDC/wdc. firm.s > > I can switch something in the firmware from 40MHz to 41,4MHz but neither > this helps nor do I know what this means.... > > -- > Oliver Lehmann > http://www.pofo.de/ > http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ _________________________________________________________________ Give to a good cause with every e-mail. Join the im Initiative from Microsoft. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?souce=EML_WL_ GoodCause ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 09:57:15 -0500 From: Jim Battle Subject: Re: Wang the Perverted To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Message-ID: <4841674B.6090709 at pacbell.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed schwepes at moog.netaxs.com wrote: > My name is Bob and this is my first post. > What caused me to join this discussion group was a wang computer that > came into my possession that had two 5 1/4 diskette drives, one > internal and the other external. > It seemed to require its own peculiar start up disk and I suspect it > would have to be a formatted 160 or 180 kbit job. > Finding out information on this thing only seemed to lead to dead ends. > I cannot get greater specifics as I stored the thing in an inconvenient > place when I took it off the workbench. > respectfully > bob schwier > > > Bob, Wang made many different computers of the course of three decades. Can you say which one you are talking about? Or some information that might help narrow it down? ------------------------------ Message: 13 Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 11:17:47 -0400 From: "Roy J. Tellason" Subject: Re: Wang the Perverted To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <200805311117.47464.rtellason at verizon.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 On Saturday 31 May 2008 10:57, Jim Battle wrote: > schwepes at moog.netaxs.com wrote: > > My name is Bob and this is my first post. > > What caused me to join this discussion group was a wang computer that > > came into my possession that had two 5 1/4 diskette drives, one > > internal and the other external. > > It seemed to require its own peculiar start up disk and I suspect it > > would have to be a formatted 160 or 180 kbit job. > > Finding out information on this thing only seemed to lead to dead ends. > > I cannot get greater specifics as I stored the thing in an inconvenient > > place when I took it off the workbench. > > respectfully > > bob schwier > > Bob, > > Wang made many different computers of the course of three decades. Can > you say which one you are talking about? Or some information that might > help narrow it down? Those disk formats sound like their "PC" with single-sided drives, 8 or 9 sectors / track offhand... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin ------------------------------ Message: 14 Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 17:32:36 +0200 From: "Peter" Subject: Synertek KTM-3/80 -- 2 questions To: Message-ID: <000001c8c333$8dbecfa0$0300a8c0 at HemPC> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello I have an KTM-3 with power module, thermo printer and floppy drive. How can I come in touch with people that are interested in this classic hardware? Kind Regards Peter Lofstedt Home +46 243 60655 Cell +46 70 6368475 Peter.lofstedt at ericsson.com ------------------------------ Message: 15 Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 09:15:45 -0700 From: dwight elvey Subject: RE: Transformer repairs To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" > From: dkelvey at hotmail.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Fri, 30 May 2008 20:47:47 -0700 > Subject: RE: Transformer repairs > > > > > >> From: javickers at solutionengineers.com > ---snip some --- >> >> My apologies - I previously stated that all T's were fed from the same AC >> input, but that's wrong. Mea culpa, my memory is rapidly fading, and I was >> going from memory... >> >> You can probably follow things from the schematic better than I can from the >> circuit board, however: >> >> The T3 transformer is fed via Q1 from one side of C7. I'm guessing that Q1 >> is what's generating the pulses? > > Hi Ade > No, Q1 is on the secondary side of T3, not the primary. IC1 generates > the pulse that go through T3 and cause Q1 to turn on for the short pulses. > I'll try to walk you through how this particular supply works. > > ---snip-- some more >> >> Can remove T1 from the board & conduct an isolated test? If I connect a 9v >> battery (with a lightbulb in series, say) across the primary, would I expect >> to see a pulse of some kind come out of the secondary if it is working >> properly? > > It is unlikely that you'd see anything more than a small spike on a scope > The T1 seems to have about a 100:1 ratio or more. Oops! should have said 10:1 or more. Dwight > > Let me try to describe how this supply works. This should help you fix it. > > First, T2 provides power to IC1. IC1 monitors the 12 volts out through > R14, VR2 and R12 network. If it is more than 12 volts, IC1 will sorten > the pulse on time to T3. If the voltage is too low it will increase the pulse > width. > The other components around IC1 provide time constants for the pulse > frequency and filter of response time of the regulation. IC1 also has > a current monitor that looks at R11. If the voltage across R11 is too > high it will turn on a circuit to stop the pulses to T3. > Now, lets look at the high voltage side. As Tony has stated, you can't see > much on a scope because of the fact that everything is following the ac input. > Where you'd want to connect the ground would blow a fuse, unless you > ran differential or as I suggested, use an isolation transformer. > First the input AC goes through the filter network of L1 and some capacitors. > It then goes through a full wave rectifier, causing a DC voltage to be developed > on C7. You should measure this voltage with an ungrounded meter. You should > see about 300volts across C7. If not, something is open in the input circuits. > If, as you say, you see pulses on T3's primary side, it must be in the bridge > rectifier is open. The voltages measured relative to ground have little meaning. > T3's secondary is connected to the emitter and base of Q1. The pulse > will cause Q1 to turn on for a short time. Since this is a short pulse,T1's > secondary will see a voltage spike as well. > This will forward bias the leg of D6 from the transformer to L2, charging > C14. When the pulse is gone on T3's output, Q1 turns off. This turns > the top leg of D6 off. > Because some energy is now stored in L2, the bottom leg of D6 will > now conduct, further charging C14. It is this voltage that feeds back to > IC1 to change the pulse width going to T3 and on to Q1. > This completes the 12 volt part of the supply. > The 5 volt output is completely supplied from the 12 volt line. If there is > no 12 volts, there is no 5 volts. > The 12 volts powers IC2 that sets the regulation of the 5 volt output. > It is directly connected to the transistors that switch the DC from the > 12 volt line to the 5 volt. > IC2 turns on Q4 and Q3 for a short amount of time. This causes > current to flow in L5 and charge C21. When IC2 turns off Q4 and Q3, > L5 will still have some stored energy, causing D7 bto conduct, further > charging C21. > IC2 monitors the voltage and adjust the pulse width to keep the > output at 5V, in the same way as IC1 did. > Besides testing the voltage across C7, as I suggested earlier ( being > very careful not to electricute one self, you might also unsolder Q1 and > see if it is shorted. > This supply is also unique in that the 5 volt part runs from the 12 volt > side. It would be possible to connect a 12 volt bench supply to the > 12 volt output leads ( with the mains not connected ) and see if the > 5 volt output works OK. > That is all I have for now. > Dwight > > _________________________________________________________________ > Change the world with e-mail. Join the im Initiative from Microsoft. > http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?source=EML_WL_ChangeWorld _________________________________________________________________ Give to a good cause with every e-mail. Join the im Initiative from Microsoft. http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Join/Default.aspx?souce=EML_WL_ GoodCause ------------------------------ Message: 16 Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 11:13:21 -0700 From: "Bob Armstrong" Subject: Old style DEC 5-1/4" "pop panel" needed (will trade for 10 1/2") To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Message-ID: <004101c8c34a$0290a810$07b1f830$@com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I need a DEC, old style, "pop panel" blank rack panel that's 5 1/4" high. I'd be happy to trade for a 10 1/2" pop panel if that helps anybody (heck, I'll trade for two - I've got several of the 10 1/2 panels). Thanks, Bob Armstrong ------------------------------ Message: 17 Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 15:49:11 -0400 From: "Andrew Lynch" Subject: RE: Thanks! REXT Diagnostic ROM and POSTcard To: Message-ID: <008b01c8c357$65d30b40$a903a8c0 at andrewdesktop> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Andrew Lynch wrote: > Long story short, I replaced a 74LS245 and a faulty DRAM chip and now the > board boots fine. The DRAM I could probably figure out myself, but how did you determine the 74LS245 was at fault? (I, too, have a 5150 that won't boot) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org ) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ -----REPLY----- Hi, The old fashioned way; I used an oscilloscope to compare the inputs and outputs of the bus transceiver. One of the buffers was dead and all of the outputs on one side looked "funny" so I desoldered it and replaced it with a new one. Of course, the IBM PC/XT motherboards have few sockets so desoldering and replacing the chip was awful. I tried to nicely desolder it but ended up destroying the chip and cutting it out. One thing I really like about VG, NorthStar, Kaypro, and Heath is almost their entire motherboards are socketed. Yes, I know direct soldered chips are technically more reliable but they are a PITA to replace when they do fail. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch ------------------------------ Message: 18 Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 13:13:41 -0700 (PDT) From: David Griffith Subject: video game cartridges To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I know that some of you here have an interest in vintage video games. How many of you would be interested in getting together a pool to make new Atari 2600 and Vectrex cartridge cases? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? ------------------------------ Message: 19 Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 13:28:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Chris M Subject: Re: video game cartridges To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <913257.48853.qm at web65511.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 how would you intend to do this? You'll need someone to machine a die, and subsequently someone to do the injection molding. It's not rocket science (although I've never done it). But I'm not volunteering... Dies are very expensive by the way. --- David Griffith wrote: > > I know that some of you here have an interest in > vintage video games. How > many of you would be interested in getting together > a pool to make new > Atari 2600 and Vectrex cartridge cases? > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people > normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > ------------------------------ Message: 20 Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 13:36:53 -0700 (PDT) From: Mr Ian Primus Subject: Re: video game cartridges To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <601034.32883.qm at web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- On Sat, 5/31/08, David Griffith wrote: > I know that some of you here have an interest in vintage > video games. How > many of you would be interested in getting together a pool > to make new > Atari 2600 and Vectrex cartridge cases? I've made up many Atari 2600 cartridges, and I've never had a hard time finding used carts to recycle for the casing. There are enough Pac-Man, ET, and Space Invaders cartridges out there for decades of homemade carts. Besides, even if you had new cart cases made up, you'd still need the boards from used carts anyway. Unless, of course, someone makes those again too. Vectrex, on the other hand, is a different beast. Not a lot of Vectrex carts out there. Now, if you make up cases for those - I'll buy some - provided that someone sends me a Vectrex, that is... -Ian ------------------------------ Message: 21 Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 13:37:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Mr Ian Primus Subject: Re: video game cartridges To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <861748.41180.qm at web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii --- On Sat, 5/31/08, David Griffith wrote: > I know that some of you here have an interest in vintage > video games. How > many of you would be interested in getting together a pool > to make new > Atari 2600 and Vectrex cartridge cases? I've made up many Atari 2600 cartridges, and I've never had a hard time finding used carts to recycle for the casing. There are enough Pac-Man, ET, and Space Invaders cartridges out there for decades of homemade carts. Besides, even if you had new cart cases made up, you'd still need the boards from used carts anyway. Unless, of course, someone makes those again too. Vectrex, on the other hand, is a different beast. Not a lot of Vectrex carts out there. Now, if you make up cases for those - I'll buy some - provided that someone sends me a Vectrex, that is... -Ian ------------------------------ Message: 22 Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 13:43:30 -0700 (PDT) From: David Griffith Subject: Re: video game cartridges To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 31 May 2008, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > --- On Sat, 5/31/08, David Griffith wrote: > > > I know that some of you here have an interest in vintage video games. > > How many of you would be interested in getting together a pool to make > > new Atari 2600 and Vectrex cartridge cases? > > I've made up many Atari 2600 cartridges, and I've never had a hard time > finding used carts to recycle for the casing. There are enough Pac-Man, > ET, and Space Invaders cartridges out there for decades of homemade > carts. Besides, even if you had new cart cases made up, you'd still need > the boards from used carts anyway. Unless, of course, someone makes > those again too. Atariage.com sells various types of PCBs for the 2600, 5200, 8-bit, and Coleco > Vectrex, on the other hand, is a different beast. Not a lot of Vectrex > carts out there. Now, if you make up cases for those - I'll buy some - > provided that someone sends me a Vectrex, that is... The Vectrex consoles themselves aren't that hard to find. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? ------------------------------ Message: 23 Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 14:01:46 -0700 From: Josh Dersch Subject: Good Composite->VGA converters for classic computers (& video games...) To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Message-ID: <4841BCBA.1070109 at msu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Anyone out there use a composite->VGA upscaler for their classic computing and/or gaming needs? I've been looking to shave a bit of space off my workbench and just use a single SVGA monitor instead of that and an old composite monitor. I picked up one of these: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000XXZQWQ and while it works great for certain systems (the C64 and NES, for example) it gets really confused by the composite signal coming from other systems (like the Apple II and Sega Genesis) and is unusable with them. Anyone have any recommendations? Thanks, Josh ------------------------------ Message: 24 Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 23:07:53 +0200 From: "Enrico Lazzerini" Subject: Big Board I: micro cornucopia & user disk To: Message-ID: <4818CE87016296C3 at jack.mail.tiscali.sys> (added by postmaster at tiscali.it) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi at all, i'm looking for all articles and software for the big board I. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferguson_Big_Board) There was a magazine called Micro Cornucopia ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micro_Cornucopia) Some issues are scannered here below: http://www.aceware.iinet.net.au/acms/BooksByManufacturerList.asp?lngManufact urerId=980&strManufacturerDescription=Micro+Cornucopia The issues i'm looking for are from the 1st to the 22th. There was also an DRI Archive of the Big Board user disk. I'm looking from the #1 to the #20. They contain sw utilities bios lists and all about this OLD SBC. I thanks to all would be help to rebuild all info around this board. Enrico - Pisa - Italy ------------------------------ Message: 25 Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 20:04:48 -0500 From: "Jason T" Subject: Come Work at Bell Labs! To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <51ea77730805311804p2f484f8ax68e70637697458ce at mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Some great shots of old terminals and other mysteries of the Labs here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHBHEWyZ1Xw What are the terminals Greg Chesson is using around the 2:30 mark? ------------------------------ Message: 26 Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 23:09:30 -0400 From: "Teo Zenios" Subject: OS/2 problems To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <002e01c8c394$e91c20d0$c600a8c0 at game> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Anybody happen to have disks for OS/2 2.1? I tried installing it today on my PS/2 65SX and disk #8 is bad. not sure if anything past that is good or not. Also I tried installing OS/2 1.1EE onto the same machine but fdisk could not find any drives. Since that machine is SCSI does OS/2 expect ESDI drives? TZ ------------------------------ Message: 27 Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 23:55:59 -0400 From: "Teo Zenios" Subject: Re: OS/2 problems To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Message-ID: <004601c8c39b$69c9a8f0$c600a8c0 at game> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=response ----- Original Message ----- From: "Zane H. Healy" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2008 11:38 PM Subject: Re: OS/2 problems > At 11:09 PM -0400 5/31/08, Teo Zenios wrote: >>Anybody happen to have disks for OS/2 2.1? I tried installing it today on >>my PS/2 65SX and disk #8 is bad. not sure if anything past that is good or >>not. >> >>Also I tried installing OS/2 1.1EE onto the same machine but fdisk could >>not find any drives. Since that machine is SCSI does OS/2 expect ESDI >>drives? > > More likely MFM or IDE, I've never run 1.1EE, however, I ran 1.3 on an IDE > drive. Which is older, OS/2 1.1EE or the PS/2 65SX? > 1.1EE is a year or two older then the 65SX. Just seems odd DOS FDISK had no issues finding and formatting the drive but 1.1EE kept giving me errors. End of cctech Digest, Vol 58, Issue 2 ************************************* From dr.emiel at xs4all.nl Mon Jun 2 02:49:40 2008 From: dr.emiel at xs4all.nl (Rik) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 09:49:40 +0200 Subject: HP 9000 Pascal 3.2 : HFS on HP9133L In-Reply-To: <4842A70B.6070502@gmx.de> References: <4842A70B.6070502@gmx.de> Message-ID: <44CC4AC9687B4BE49F4180AC7DDF6B8B@xp1800> Jo, What kind of hardware are you using, the 9000/200 or 300 series. HP Pascal is very critical about the hardware, you need the right version/files for your hardware. As I recollect, the installation discs are containing 1 or 2 different files adapted to the hardware. Basic is much easier to install. -Rik -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens jobs at gmx.de Verzonden: zondag 1 juni 2008 15:42 Aan: cctech at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: HP 9000 Pascal 3.2 : HFS on HP9133L I was just browsing the web for some advice about HP Pascal 3.25. You were mentioning it while looking for HFS initialisation. Were you successful?. I have Pascal 3.2 or BASIC 6.4. Both support HFS. Did you find PASCAL 3.25 ??? Greetings. Jo ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dr. Joachim B?hrmann-Schulz Hardyweg 8 14055 Berlin jobs at gmx.de From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Jun 2 11:29:00 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 09:29:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CMD CQD-200/T questions Message-ID: <235441.42802.qm@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I have a CMD CQD-203/T (same board as the CQD-200, only with the S handle for the BA213) in my MicroVax 3900. This is a SCSI tape controller. Is there any way to upgrade/convert this board into the /MT (disk/tape) version of the board? Is it just a simple EPROM replacement, or something more complicated/impossible? In it's stock form, can this board work with a CDROM drive at all, or do I need the M or MT version for that? Thanks! -Ian From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Jun 2 11:29:00 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 09:29:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CMD CQD-200/T questions Message-ID: <235441.42802.qm@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I have a CMD CQD-203/T (same board as the CQD-200, only with the S handle for the BA213) in my MicroVax 3900. This is a SCSI tape controller. Is there any way to upgrade/convert this board into the /MT (disk/tape) version of the board? Is it just a simple EPROM replacement, or something more complicated/impossible? In it's stock form, can this board work with a CDROM drive at all, or do I need the M or MT version for that? Thanks! -Ian From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Jun 2 13:11:57 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2008 13:11:57 -0500 Subject: Apple II timing vs. NTSC (was Re: Good Composite->VGA converters for classic computers (& video games...) In-Reply-To: <49985.71.139.37.220.1212383601.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <4841BCBA.1070109@msu.edu> <44050.71.139.37.220.1212343467.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <4842FD50.7030704@oldskool.org> <42213.71.139.37.220.1212354501.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <48432856.9080307@oldskool.org> <49985.71.139.37.220.1212383601.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <484437ED.5050804@oldskool.org> Eric Smith wrote: > Eric Smith wrote: >> The Apple II horizontal rate is 228.0 times the color subcarrier >> frequency, so that the color phase is the same on every line. > > Jim wrote: >> Was there a reason for this design decision? > > It was done so that the same bit pattern that produces green on one scan > line also produces green on the next scan line, rather than purple. This > is especially important for the low-res graphics mode, but not doing it > would also have made the high-res mode harder to use. Hm... I use the same bit-pattern in composite color on an IBM CGA, and I see that same behavior, so does that mean IBM CGA is doing the same thing, or is the card reversing the supplied bit pattern on every alternate scanline? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 1 21:21:01 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 03:21:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: Introduction In-Reply-To: <57553.71.139.37.220.1212354699.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Jun 1, 8 02:11:39 pm Message-ID: > > Grumply Ol' Fred wrote: > > Although it is prob'ly irrelevant to this particular problem, IIRC, > > buffered seek was one of the major differences between the ST506 and ST412 > > intrerfaces. > > That's my recollection as well. And mine. > > On early drives, the point of buffered seek was to allow the electronics > on the drive to use an acceleration profile specifically tailored to > the stepper motor and actuator mass of the drive. Before buffered > seek, the time to seek n tracks was exactly n times the track-to-track > time. Buffered seek improved the seek performance considerably for > longer seeks. The SA4000 (14" Winchester) has a rather odd seek specification. It supports buffered seeks -- sort of. You can either send it step pulses so slowly that it steps one track at a time, or you can send it a burst of step pulses so faster that it buffers the lot and then does the seek. But if you send step pulses at an intermediate rate, it'll miscount them (there is one up/down counter clocked both by the step pulse and the head movement logic, and the logic around that is 'minimal'...) and the heads won't end up on the cylinder you expect. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 1 21:25:21 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 03:25:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: Transformer repairs In-Reply-To: <48431867.3070800@gifford.co.uk> from "John Honniball" at Jun 1, 8 10:45:11 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > >> Williams presents this circuit (and many pages of very interesting > >>reading, as he describes the process by which he arrived at his final > >>result...ideas, testing, failures, successes, optimization, etc) in the > >>absolutely fantastic book entitled "Analog Circuit Design: Art, Science, > >>and Personalities". I strongly recommend that book. > > > > Thanks. I will certainly check it out. I've never heard of said book before. > > I can also recommend the book. I have a copy that I got, I think, I am an idiot (there, you read it here...). Last night, after posting that reply, I looked along my bookshelf. There, next to my reprint of the Radiotron Designer's Handbook was 'Analogue Circuit Design : Art, Science and Personalities'. That's where I read about the improvements to the Wien bridge oscillator, and yes, it was Jim Williams' work I was describing. Great book. > from the Oxfam bookshop at the top of Park Street, Bristol (Tony Actually, I don't think I do. I rememebr a good 'remainders' shop about half way down Park Street and an Oxfam bookshop over in Clifton. And many other second-hand bookshops scattered around the city (where I spent far too much money...) -tony From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Jun 2 15:55:16 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 13:55:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CMD CQD-200/T questions In-Reply-To: <235441.42802.qm@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <235441.42802.qm@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <54203.64.62.206.10.1212440116.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Ian wrote: > Is there any way to upgrade/convert this board into the /MT (disk/tape) > version of the board? Is it just a simple EPROM replacement, or something > more complicated/impossible? AFAICT, the /MT has the same firmware as the /M and /T versions, but a different address decode PAL. I haven't tried to reverse-engineer the PAL. > In it's stock form, can this board work with a CDROM drive at all, or do I > need the M or MT version for that? The /T definitely won't talk to it. I'm not sure about the /M or /MT. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Jun 2 16:16:43 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 14:16:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple II timing vs. NTSC (was Re: Good Composite->VGA converters for classic computers (& video games...) In-Reply-To: <484437ED.5050804@oldskool.org> References: <4841BCBA.1070109@msu.edu> <44050.71.139.37.220.1212343467.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <4842FD50.7030704@oldskool.org> <42213.71.139.37.220.1212354501.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <48432856.9080307@oldskool.org> <49985.71.139.37.220.1212383601.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <484437ED.5050804@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <46418.64.62.206.10.1212441403.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Jim wrote: > Hm... I use the same bit-pattern in composite color on an IBM CGA, and I > see that same behavior, so does that mean IBM CGA is doing the same > thing, or is the card reversing the supplied bit pattern on every > alternate scanline? The CGA does color generation in an entirely different manner. Three flip-flops driven by the 3.58 and 14.32 MHz clocks generate six different color signals with continuous phase, and the color bits from the display RAM drive a multiplexer to select between those, black, and white. (An additional bit selects intensity, but that's independent of the actual color.) I haven't verified that they make the scan lines exactly 227.5 color carrier cycles, but they probably do, as there's no good reason for them not to. That's mostly determined by how they program the MC6845 registers. Eric From dr.emiel at xs4all.nl Mon Jun 2 16:24:32 2008 From: dr.emiel at xs4all.nl (Rik) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 23:24:32 +0200 Subject: HP Keyboards Message-ID: <00ABA88B609849268552DA439E272851@xp1800> Does any one knows if the keyboards of the 9000/200 series are interchangeble with the HP-150 keyboards ? Rik From roman.szeremeta at actewagl.net.au Mon Jun 2 17:39:35 2008 From: roman.szeremeta at actewagl.net.au (Roman Szeremeta) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 08:39:35 +1000 Subject: HP Keyboards References: <00ABA88B609849268552DA439E272851@xp1800> Message-ID: <003801c8c501$8892a450$0600a8c0@inspiron> I am using the keyboard from a HP-150 II on a series 300. The keyboard has an HP-HIL interface, model no HP 46020A. The function keys are different from the standard keyboard on a 9826 but are re-programmed with the 'softkeys' function. I dont think the series 200 had the HIL interface though. Roman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rik" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 7:24 AM Subject: HP Keyboards > > > > > Does any one knows if the keyboards of the 9000/200 series are > interchangeble with the HP-150 keyboards ? > > Rik > From tosteve at yahoo.com Mon Jun 2 19:26:56 2008 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 17:26:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Can you ID this early pen-based portable? Message-ID: <935177.81563.qm@web51607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Please identify this computer for me if you can: http://members.cox.net/oldcomputerads/appraiser1.jpg Thanks- Steve. From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Jun 2 20:18:30 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2008 21:18:30 -0400 Subject: CMD CQD-200/T questions In-Reply-To: <54203.64.62.206.10.1212440116.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <235441.42802.qm@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <54203.64.62.206.10.1212440116.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <48449BE6.30707@gmail.com> Eric Smith wrote: > Ian wrote: >> Is there any way to upgrade/convert this board into the /MT (disk/tape) >> version of the board? Is it just a simple EPROM replacement, or something >> more complicated/impossible? > > AFAICT, the /MT has the same firmware as the /M and /T versions, but a > different address decode PAL. I haven't tried to reverse-engineer > the PAL. > >> In it's stock form, can this board work with a CDROM drive at all, or do I >> need the M or MT version for that? > > The /T definitely won't talk to it. I'm not sure about the /M or /MT. I don't know about the /M, but the /MT definitely can. Just shows up as a regular disk. Peace... Sridhar From JSievers at NADINE-Software.com Mon Jun 2 06:11:58 2008 From: JSievers at NADINE-Software.com (Juergen Sievers) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 13:11:58 +0200 Subject: SuperBrain QD Message-ID: <000601c8c4a1$798817c0$a14ad1d5@nadinesoftware.com> Hi, this my first message here on the list and so I may say "Hello, It is nice to be able to join so uncomplicated to this list and to be able to exchange itself with you over the miraculous computers of the past millennium." Some of my systems are shown at www.8bit-matrix.net . If you would like then do not hesitate to have a look at you them there. But now my actual problem. I have a SuperBrain in my collection which has an electronically problem. So I need the schematics for repair. I found some on the net but these are really unreadable because they are scanned in very low resolution an quality. When I have gotten the system the keyboard decoder chip (KR3600-XXX) was death. After I have installed a replacement the SB becomes running. After few minutes this chip was broken again and the screen driver was possibly gone with it. I have some experience and equipment to figure out electronically problems for repair. But without a readable schematics it would cost to much time. So I'm full of hope that someone here supports me to getting back this system to a proper and running state. By the way, is there a replacement (self-made GAL-XXX eg.) or source to get one original KR3600-XXX chip? Regards Juergen From les at frii.com Mon Jun 2 13:22:22 2008 From: les at frii.com (les at frii.com) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2008 12:22:22 -0600 (MDT) Subject: SuperBrain QD In-Reply-To: <200806021702.m52H1oYc010371@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200806021702.m52H1oYc010371@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <2314.72.54.105.73.1212430942.squirrel@users.frii.com> Subject: SuperBrain QD past millennium." Some of my systems are shown at www.8bit-matrix.net . If you would like then do not hesitate to have a look at you them there. Superbrains and the related Intertube had terrible switching power supplies. I would be very suspicious of the 5 volt line. As an aside, the shop I worked in at the time had a picture of a superbrain power supply on the wall, with the caption "component in question is easily located by the charred area". Les Hildenbrandt From jfk at kuenzigbooks.com Mon Jun 2 17:21:02 2008 From: jfk at kuenzigbooks.com (John F. Kuenzig) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2008 18:21:02 -0400 Subject: powering up older machines - is it safe? Message-ID: <4844724E.4040403@kuenzigbooks.com> Hi all - I'm new to the list, been lurking for a while. By way of introduction, back in the 80s I was a bonified software developer (wrote a mag tape locking device for an early version of UNIX back when there wasn't such a thing, did work in telecom test equipment and speech recognition for years) but these days I'm in the old/rare book business, technical books and all. I like old hardware, though don't have the storage space for much. When I was in high school I took apart a Friden computyper in my parents basement just to see what was in it. Still have the "core memory" board around here somewhere. I've tried to salvage manuals for old computers, component manufacturer technical books, and an IMSAI or two over the years. Still have 20 boxes of old components (everything from transistors, caps, resistors, etc to tubes) in the garage I've accumulated over the years when I'm buying old books from hobbyists - buried deep enough I don't even remember what's in them. Anyway, a friend asked me to try and sell a DEC Robin for him (he tells me it's a DEC VT180 with a separate drive unit that he tells me was only available to DEC employees), and my question is this: Is it safe to try and plug this machine in and try to power it up? I've seen various discussions about old capacitors dying, etc but I'm not sure if this machine is old enough to worry about. My plan was to try and power it up (my consignor also gave me some software with it, not sure if it's related or not yet), and see if it still ran ok, take some photos for the group (if anyone wants to see it) and my own records, and then try to sell it. It appears to be in good shape, in the original boxes, "monitor" in one box w/keyboard (looks to be a VT180), and a disc drive unit in the other. My consignor said it ran the last time he had it out many years ago. I've always enjoyed and preferred photographs of old machines with their startup screen displayed rather than a dark screen. Seems like they have more life with a live screen. Any pointers appreciated (on or off list) - what to do or check in what order would be great. Its been a long time since I blew up directional capacitors in lab...so long I don't even remember what they're called. Thanks in advance! -- Sincerely, John Kuenzig, Bookseller Kuenzig Books PO Box 452, Topsfield, MA 01983 978-887-4053 9am-7pm Eastern Standard Time 866-512-3053 tollfree 9am-7pm EST orders at kuenzigbooks.com (orders or inquiries) Important Books in Science, Technology and Speculative Fiction Secure ordering at http://www.kuenzigbooks.com Save time, money and earn other exclusive benefits. Members of: ABAA http://www.abaa.org MARIAB http://www.mariab.org ESA http://www.ephemerasociety.org Buying 18th-21st century books, manuscripts, ephemera, scientific instruments, artifacts, and related material From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Jun 2 17:53:15 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2008 18:53:15 -0400 Subject: powering up older machines - is it safe? Message-ID: <0K1U00IZIXWF08U4@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: powering up older machines - is it safe? > From: "John F. Kuenzig" > Date: Mon, 02 Jun 2008 18:21:02 -0400 > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > >Hi all - I'm new to the list, been lurking for a while. By way of >introduction, back in the 80s I was a bonified software developer (wrote >a mag tape locking device for an early version of UNIX back when there >wasn't such a thing, did work in telecom test equipment and speech >recognition for years) but these days I'm in the old/rare book business, >technical books and all. I like old hardware, though don't have the >storage space for much. When I was in high school I took apart a Friden >computyper in my parents basement just to see what was in it. Still >have the "core memory" board around here somewhere. I've tried to >salvage manuals for old computers, component manufacturer technical >books, and an IMSAI or two over the years. Still have 20 boxes of old >components (everything from transistors, caps, resistors, etc to tubes) >in the garage I've accumulated over the years when I'm buying old books >from hobbyists - buried deep enough I don't even remember what's in them. > >Anyway, a friend asked me to try and sell a DEC Robin for him (he tells >me it's a DEC VT180 with a separate drive unit that he tells me was only >available to DEC employees), and my question is this: ;) have a few of them around. > >Is it safe to try and plug this machine in and try to power it up? I've >seen various discussions about old capacitors dying, etc but I'm not >sure if this machine is old enough to worry about. My plan was to try >and power it up (my consignor also gave me some software with it, not >sure if it's related or not yet), and see if it still ran ok, take some >photos for the group (if anyone wants to see it) and my own records, and >then try to sell it. It appears to be in good shape, in the original >boxes, "monitor" in one box w/keyboard (looks to be a VT180), and a disc >drive unit in the other. My consignor said it ran the last time he had >it out many years ago. I've always enjoyed and preferred photographs of >old machines with their startup screen displayed rather than a dark >screen. Seems like they have more life with a live screen. Generally yes in my exerience. The PS is a ASTEC switcher in the drive and DEC in the tube/system case. Customer could buy the second drive though when it was being sold it was very expensive. >Any pointers appreciated (on or off list) - what to do or check in what >order would be great. Its been a long time since I blew up directional >capacitors in lab...so long I don't even remember what they're called. >Thanks in advance! Generally every one I'd found powered up or was dead. The latter was "it was dead when I got it" from the person before me and likely dead from the person before that. Watch the VT100 monitor board. There is a cap that should be a higher voltage part that fails in time taking parts. It's repairable if croaked but people panic when they see chared board. Allison Framingham,MA exdigit. >-- >Sincerely, > >John Kuenzig, Bookseller > >Kuenzig Books >PO Box 452, Topsfield, MA 01983 >978-887-4053 9am-7pm Eastern Standard Time >866-512-3053 tollfree 9am-7pm EST >orders at kuenzigbooks.com (orders or inquiries) > >Important Books in Science, Technology and Speculative Fiction > >Secure ordering at http://www.kuenzigbooks.com >Save time, money and earn other exclusive benefits. > >Members of: >ABAA http://www.abaa.org >MARIAB http://www.mariab.org >ESA http://www.ephemerasociety.org > >Buying 18th-21st century books, manuscripts, ephemera, >scientific instruments, artifacts, and related material From dr.emiel at xs4all.nl Tue Jun 3 03:39:56 2008 From: dr.emiel at xs4all.nl (Rik) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 10:39:56 +0200 Subject: HP Keyboards In-Reply-To: <003801c8c501$8892a450$0600a8c0@inspiron> References: <00ABA88B609849268552DA439E272851@xp1800> <003801c8c501$8892a450$0600a8c0@inspiron> Message-ID: <9E8360AFFB29468C91FC3ED11FF24432@xp1800> Roman, Hil-keyboards are not the problem, the 200 series are using another type of keyboard interface. The Touchscreen I too they have both the same connector and both don't have a processor on the keyboard it self. I know the HP150 and HP239X Terminals are inter changeble, but is it also with the 9816 or other 200 series computers ? Rik -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Roman Szeremeta Verzonden: dinsdag 3 juni 2008 0:40 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: HP Keyboards I am using the keyboard from a HP-150 II on a series 300. The keyboard has an HP-HIL interface, model no HP 46020A. The function keys are different from the standard keyboard on a 9826 but are re-programmed with the 'softkeys' function. I dont think the series 200 had the HIL interface though. Roman ----- Original Message ----- From: "Rik" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 7:24 AM Subject: HP Keyboards > > > > > Does any one knows if the keyboards of the 9000/200 series are > interchangeble with the HP-150 keyboards ? > > Rik > From wmaddox at pacbell.net Tue Jun 3 04:57:32 2008 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 02:57:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Shipping equipment (was: Re: Prepare to chuckle...) In-Reply-To: <71A10C97-EA3A-44F1-8D61-58D24EDF2FEE@voysys.com> Message-ID: <136362.33934.qm@web82602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- "Marden P. Marshall" wrote: > On May 8, 2008, at 8:07 PM, William Maddox wrote: > > verify this. There is a fellow in town who quite likely has a scrap > > drive -- I've seen a lot of the later RX02s that have been scrapped > > for > > motors and heads in his shop. Sorry it took me so long to get back to you. I bought one of Larry's junk drives last weekend. It's in my storage now, but I can pull the door for you if you want it. It looks like you could use also use a front bezel. It looks like the door on the other drive is a bit askew. Can you straighten it, or should I keep an eye out for another door? --Bill From jason at havnet.net Tue Jun 3 09:05:05 2008 From: jason at havnet.net (Jason Fitzpatrick) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 15:05:05 +0100 Subject: UK Computer Museum on TV In-Reply-To: <136362.33934.qm@web82602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi All, Just in case you're interested, we've had the Anglia TV film crew here at the Centre for Computing History today, and they *should* be running it on the Anglia news tonight at 6pm. There's also been a big feature in the East Anglia Daily Times today - phew ... It's all go ! Obviously many of you won't be able to see it but there may be a few who can ... I'll record it and post it online if there's any interest! Is there anyone local to Cambridge (UK) interested in being involved with the museum? It's been around for just over a year but things are really starting to move now ... Cheers Jason Fitzpatrick www.ComputingHistory.org.uk From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Jun 3 11:43:44 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 11:43:44 -0500 Subject: Anyone had experience with this supplier of floppies? Message-ID: <484574C0.5000203@oldskool.org> I was looking for a source of new diskettes and found Athana here: http://athana.com/html/diskette.html Anyone had experience with their product? I don't want to use these only to be wiping goo off of the inside of my floppy drives five years later... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From dr.emiel at xs4all.nl Tue Jun 3 12:03:18 2008 From: dr.emiel at xs4all.nl (Rik) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 19:03:18 +0200 Subject: Anyone had experience with this supplier of floppies? In-Reply-To: <484574C0.5000203@oldskool.org> References: <484574C0.5000203@oldskool.org> Message-ID: Athana is know as the only suplier for DC100A tapes for the HP-85. Their tapes seems to be reliable. Rik -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Jim Leonard Verzonden: dinsdag 3 juni 2008 18:44 Aan: General at mail.mobygames.com; Discussion at mail.mobygames.com :On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Anyone had experience with this supplier of floppies? I was looking for a source of new diskettes and found Athana here: http://athana.com/html/diskette.html Anyone had experience with their product? I don't want to use these only to be wiping goo off of the inside of my floppy drives five years later... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue Jun 3 12:50:25 2008 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 13:50:25 -0400 Subject: Anyone had experience with this supplier of floppies? Message-ID: <48454C21020000370002D530@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Jim Leonard writes: > I was looking for a source of new diskettes and found Athana here: > http://athana.com/html/diskette.html > > Anyone had experience with their product? I don't want to use these > only to be wiping goo off of the inside of my floppy drives five years > later... I bought and recommended their 8" floppies and compatible RL02 packs in the late 80's through mid-Lasnerian-90's. At the time I was going through sizeable lots (500, 1000 at a shot.) Worked fine back then... but it's been a long time! Tim. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 2 20:06:26 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 02:06:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP Keyboards In-Reply-To: <00ABA88B609849268552DA439E272851@xp1800> from "Rik" at Jun 2, 8 11:24:32 pm Message-ID: > > > > > > Does any one knows if the keyboards of the 9000/200 series are > interchangeble with the HP-150 keyboards ? Well, the HP150-II and the HP9817 (9000/217) both use HP-HIL keyboards, and those are the same. But the original HP150 keyboard is not interchangeable with, say, the HP9816 (9000/216) keyboard. The interface is very different. I have schematics for both, BTW. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 2 20:13:27 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 02:13:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: powering up older machines - is it safe? In-Reply-To: <4844724E.4040403@kuenzigbooks.com> from "John F. Kuenzig" at Jun 2, 8 06:21:02 pm Message-ID: > Anyway, a friend asked me to try and sell a DEC Robin for him (he tells > me it's a DEC VT180 with a separate drive unit that he tells me was only > available to DEC employees), and my question is this: > > Is it safe to try and plug this machine in and try to power it up? I've I tend to err very much on the side of caution in this (and have had, shall we say, 'differences of opinion' with other list members about this in the past). I never just plug in an unknown machine to 'see what happens'. > seen various discussions about old capacitors dying, etc but I'm not The main worry is not a capacitor Failing. The main worry IMHO is that if there's a fault in the power supply regulation circuitry then that could make the +5V line jump to a high enough voltage to wipe out just about every chip in the machine. Expansive and difficult to put right. Now, of course, this circuit could fail at any time, and most good power supplies have what's called a 'crowbar circuit' to protect against this. But I still feel that wehn you come to a machine that's not been used for some time, it's safest to disconenct the PSU from the rest of the machine, connect the former to a dummy load (a set of suitably-rated light bulbs) and test the pwoer supply separately. In some cases I've even made up test boxes/harnesses to test commonly-used (for me) PSUs quickly and easily. The problem (for you) is that doing this, on an unknown machine, takes some experience. You have to know how to disconnect the PSU from the logic (but leave the mains input connected), you have to work out suitable dummy loads and connect them to the right wires/pins on the PSU. Somebody elase here can probably talk you through waht to do, but it's still a bit of work. -tony From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jun 3 15:42:05 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 14:42:05 -0600 Subject: powering up older machines - is it safe? In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 03 Jun 2008 02:13:27 +0100. Message-ID: In article , ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > The main worry is not a capacitor Failing. The main worry IMHO is that if > there's a fault in the power supply regulation circuitry then that could > make the +5V line jump to a high enough voltage to wipe out just about > every chip in the machine. Expansive and difficult to put right. I don't disagree with the concern, but I'd be interested in hearing estimates on the probability of this taking place. Has anyone had it happen to them? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 3 16:30:37 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 14:30:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CMD CQD-200/T questions In-Reply-To: <48449BE6.30707@gmail.com> References: <235441.42802.qm@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <54203.64.62.206.10.1212440116.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <48449BE6.30707@gmail.com> Message-ID: <48574.71.139.37.220.1212528637.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Sridhar wrote: > I don't know about the /M, but the /MT definitely can. Just shows up as > a regular disk. The /M should work, then. Does the CD-ROM have to be jumpered for 512-byte logical sectors? Or will the SCSI controller handle standard 2048-byte sectors? From jplist2007 at kiwigeek.com Tue Jun 3 16:29:20 2008 From: jplist2007 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 16:29:20 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Semi-OT? HP 1630G Logic Analyser (grabbers, invasm packs & disk drives) Message-ID: Hey folks; So I'm busy reading the manual to my brand-new-offa-eBay 1630G and, page by page, I'm more and more impressed. I've never owned one before and it just seems like pure magic. I've got it hooked up to a huffy Vector Graphic in my basement (which diagnosed a bad Z80 in a matter of seconds on my test try!) and boy is it useful. First business - does anyone have swaths of the double-grip HP probe grabbers they might be willing to part with for a reasonable sum? Just askin' :) I'm reading the section on the 'inverse assembler', which really is remarkable (like I said, I'm new to this) to have it disassemble various CPU instruction sets. What I do not have, though, is either the appropriate disk drive set (HP 9121S or 9121D, according to the manual) nor any of the invasm packs. I don't suppose there's anyone out there who may be willing to also part with either of the above, again, for reasonable recompense? With the Vector I'm interested in Z80 invasms - but, frankly, the options seem endless given the smattering of 8-bit processors I have covering my shelves in need of attention. There's a 9121D on eBay (6 days out) for $60 w/shipping, which is... do-able but seems a shade hefty. Maybe they're getting harder to find these days, I don't know. As for the invasm packs, for all I know they're complete unobtanium - but I figured I'd go to the repository for such knowledge and see what people thought. Many, many thanks to all. - JP From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 2 22:39:09 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 04:39:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: powering up older machines - is it safe? In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Jun 3, 8 02:42:05 pm Message-ID: > > The main worry is not a capacitor Failing. The main worry IMHO is that if > > there's a fault in the power supply regulation circuitry then that could > > make the +5V line jump to a high enough voltage to wipe out just about > > every chip in the machine. Expansive and difficult to put right. > > I don't disagree with the concern, but I'd be interested in hearing > estimates on the probability of this taking place. Has anyone had it > happen to them? Yes, sort-of.... I've never had it happen in a classic computer, but years ago I was making a homebrew SC/MP machine. I'd obtained a surplus PSU which I'd tested and worked fine, and then stuck on the shelf. I was foolish enough to get it out a couple of mnths later and attempt to use it to power my homebrew board. Alas something had failed in the PSU (I forget what, it might just have been a dry joint...) the +5V output was at about 9V. This wiped out the SC/MP, a couple of 2114s, and at least one TTL chip (amazingly much of the TTL eurvived). I was a schoolboy at the time, and it took a lot of weeks of saving pocket money to replace that SC/MP. I guess that's why I'm now (over-) cautious... -tony From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Jun 3 17:01:16 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 23:01:16 +0100 Subject: powering up older machines - is it safe? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <001301c8c5c5$59b0fe60$5b01a8c0@FLEXPC> Tony Duell wrote: > I was foolish enough > to get it out a couple of mnths later and attempt to use it to power > my homebrew board. Alas something had failed in the PSU (I forget what, > it might just have been a dry joint...) the +5V output was at about 9V. I can understand worrying about something that's not been used for a few years, but if you check everything that's not been used for just a few months, when do you have time to actually _do_ anything? The only thing I remember going phut round here is a Rainbow a few years ago - and that failed while trying to format a disk (so it had been running happily for a morning or so while I was playing with it). (Actually I had a mains lead fail just a few weeks ago, but that wasn't hooked up to anything classic :-)). When I get around to trying out the 380Z I'll most certainly not plug it in and hope (have you seen the size of the cap in that beast?) but I'm not going to worry too much about the Ultra 5 that sits on my desk and is powered up only every few months ... Antonio No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.5/1479 - Release Date: 02/06/2008 19:02 From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue Jun 3 17:24:13 2008 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 15:24:13 -0700 Subject: powering up older machines - is it safe? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200806031524.13366.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Monday 02 June 2008 18:13, Tony Duell wrote: > > Anyway, a friend asked me to try and sell a DEC Robin for him (he tells > > me it's a DEC VT180 with a separate drive unit that he tells me was only > > available to DEC employees), and my question is this: > > > > Is it safe to try and plug this machine in and try to power it up? --snip-- > The main worry is not a capacitor Failing. The main worry IMHO is that if > there's a fault in the power supply regulation circuitry then that could > make the +5V line jump to a high enough voltage to wipe out just about > every chip in the machine. Expansive and difficult to put right. --snip-- I'm in strong agreement with Tony on this. With most vintage equipment I restore, I do the following: 1. Test all power supply capacitors with an ESR meter and/or a VOM. 2. Where possible, remove all modules from a system before applying power. 3. Check to insure that there are no shorts between any power leads (I've found springs, screws, etc. under motherboards and backplanes - which would have created major power shorts.) 4. When the above check out correctly, apply power and test all voltages for the proper level. Test for (appropriate) low AC ripple in all supplies. 5. Power off. Insert the minimum number of modules to test the system (assuming it's a mini or micro) - such as CPU, Memory and Console I/O. Power on and test. 6. Once #5 is successfully completed, insert modules by function and test until all modules/functions have been tested. (Obviously powering off before module insertion and off after testing). Some pieces of equipment don't lend themselves to all of the above, but lots of gear does. Patience is the keyword. Never be too anxious to apply power. (Unless, of course, you don't care if something gets zapped in the process ;-) In answer to the question - have I ever seen a power supply go "crazy"? YES! I've seen a linear 5V supply put out near 15V - which, if modules were present, could have had nasty consequences. I've see more that one switching power supply "create" very "off" voltages as well. Speaking of patience - those of us working on the PDP-1 restoration at the Computer History Museum didn't power up the system for several months while we tested and reformed all power supply capacitors, tested all power supplies for proper voltage, ripple, load characteristics, etc. :-) Regards, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Jun 3 17:48:26 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 17:48:26 -0500 Subject: powering up older machines - is it safe? In-Reply-To: <001301c8c5c5$59b0fe60$5b01a8c0@FLEXPC> References: <001301c8c5c5$59b0fe60$5b01a8c0@FLEXPC> Message-ID: <4845CA3A.4080705@gmail.com> Antonio Carlini wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: >> I was foolish enough >> to get it out a couple of mnths later and attempt to use it to power >> my homebrew board. Alas something had failed in the PSU (I forget > what, >> it might just have been a dry joint...) the +5V output was at about > 9V. > > I can understand worrying about something that's not been used for > a few years, but if you check everything that's not been used for > just a few months, when do you have time to actually _do_ anything? I suspect most peoples' collections fall into two categories - the stuff that gets used much more frequently than every few months, and the stuff that hardly ever gets powered up at all. The former's less likely to need checking, whilst if a system gets powered up very infrequently it's not much bother to give it a proper checking first. > The only thing I remember going phut round here is a Rainbow > a few years ago - and that failed while trying to format a disk > (so it had been running happily for a morning or so while > I was playing with it). I've had all sorts go bang. The last system I worked on had a PSU fault where the +12V rail would no longer supply rated current - at startup the supply would invariably go into a loop where it'd detect a fault and shut down, only to try coming back up again moments later. I never did 'scope the +5V rail, but it wouldn't surprise me if there was all sorts of potentially-damaging noise on it under those cycling conditions. > When I get around to trying out the 380Z I'll most certainly > not plug it in and hope (have you seen the size of the cap in > that beast?) I've seen two types in 380Z's - some have much smaller caps, but like you say some of their PSUs used ones that were huge. I still need to debug my system properly sometime - it blows fuses when the little RGB analogue board is plugged in (I used to use it with composite output all the time, so I never quite got the necessary tuits together to fix it) cheers Jules From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Jun 3 17:13:08 2008 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 23:13:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: UK Computer Museum on TV Message-ID: <511793.1642.qm@web23402.mail.ird.yahoo.com> I for one would like to see it (hope you remembered to record it!). I would see it myself, but our aerial is actually pointed to Central and not Sandy Heath (Anglia TV) after my parents got some guy out to allow my & my bro to have a 2nd aerial line fitted into our bedroom years ago. We didn't realise what he had done until he had left and he never returned any of my dads phone calls. I guess you could say he was a rogue trader of sorts. I couldn't be more local to Cambridge... ok, perhaps I could if I lived *in* Cambridge and not nearby (Cottenham). I'd certainly be interested in being involved with the museum, once I get up and running with my car. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Jun 3 19:21:20 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 20:21:20 -0400 Subject: CMD CQD-200/T questions In-Reply-To: <48574.71.139.37.220.1212528637.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <235441.42802.qm@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <54203.64.62.206.10.1212440116.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <48449BE6.30707@gmail.com> <48574.71.139.37.220.1212528637.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4845E000.4050709@gmail.com> Eric Smith wrote: > Sridhar wrote: >> I don't know about the /M, but the /MT definitely can. Just shows up as >> a regular disk. > > The /M should work, then. > > Does the CD-ROM have to be jumpered for 512-byte logical sectors? Or > will the SCSI controller handle standard 2048-byte sectors? I don't remember clearly, but I would wager that it would require 512-byte sectors. Peace... Sridhar From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jun 3 20:25:30 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 18:25:30 -0700 Subject: powering up older machines - is it safe? In-Reply-To: References: Your message of Tue, 03 Jun 2008 02:13:27 +0100. Message-ID: > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > From: legalize at xmission.com > Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 14:42:05 -0600 > Subject: Re: powering up older machines - is it safe? > > > In article , > ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) writes: > >> The main worry is not a capacitor Failing. The main worry IMHO is that if >> there's a fault in the power supply regulation circuitry then that could >> make the +5V line jump to a high enough voltage to wipe out just about >> every chip in the machine. Expansive and difficult to put right. > > I don't disagree with the concern, but I'd be interested in hearing > estimates on the probability of this taking place. Has anyone had it > happen to them? Hi I'd admit it is rare but it does happen. The only case I've seen was on a pin ball machine. The way the case of the 5V regulator had a bad connection through the mounting. This caused the output voltage to go to the full 12V of the input. It wiped out a rare sound chip and a couple TTLs. Not a good thing. This can surely happen to most any regulation circuit. Some shorts and some opens can cause the regulation feedback path to go open. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Enjoy 5 GB of free, password-protected online storage. http://www.windowslive.com/skydrive/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_skydrive_062008 From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Jun 3 06:59:34 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 07:59:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Good Composite->VGA converters for classic computers (& video games...) In-Reply-To: <4841BCBA.1070109@msu.edu> References: <4841BCBA.1070109@msu.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, 31 May 2008, Josh Dersch wrote: > Anyone out there use a composite->VGA upscaler for their classic computing > and/or gaming needs? I purchased a Highway Model 100 RGB --> VGA converter for my Apple IIGS. After some fiddling with the cable wiring (it uses a SCART connector for input), results are reasonably good. Just picked up a Wei-Ya ACV-011 CGA --> VGA converter board with the intention of using it with a Commodore 128 (and possibly Amiga). It doesn't have a true TTL input, but there is a C128 enthusiast out there who published a small circuit to do the RGBI --> CGA interface. I still do not have a workable solution to bridge Apple II (not GS) composite video. That's the one that really has the non-standard format. Steve -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Jun 3 08:00:15 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 09:00:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: powering up older machines - is it safe? In-Reply-To: <0K1U00IZIXWF08U4@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0K1U00IZIXWF08U4@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Jun 2008, Allison wrote: > Generally yes in my exerience. The PS is a ASTEC switcher in the drive > and DEC in the tube/system case. > > Customer could buy the second drive though when it was being sold it was > very expensive. > >> Any pointers appreciated (on or off list) - what to do or check in what >> order would be great. Its been a long time since I blew up directional >> capacitors in lab...so long I don't even remember what they're called. >> Thanks in advance! > > Generally every one I'd found powered up or was dead. The latter was > "it was dead when I got it" from the person before me and likely dead > from the person before that. > > Watch the VT100 monitor board. There is a cap that should be a higher > voltage part that fails in time taking parts. It's repairable if croaked > but people panic when they see chared board. Allison, Do you recall anything about the semi-mythical Corvus interface for the VT180? It's mentioned in the Corvus technical literature, but I've never talked to anyone that's actually seen it in the wild. I'm curious if it ever actually existed. Steve -- From jrr at flippers.com Tue Jun 3 15:20:54 2008 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 13:20:54 -0700 Subject: powering up older machines - is it safe? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4845A7A6.8050501@flippers.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> Anyway, a friend asked me to try and sell a DEC Robin for him (he tells >> me it's a DEC VT180 with a separate drive unit that he tells me was only >> available to DEC employees), and my question is this: >> >> Is it safe to try and plug this machine in and try to power it up? I've >> > > I tend to err very much on the side of caution in this (and have had, > shall we say, 'differences of opinion' with other list members about this > in the past). I never just plug in an unknown machine to 'see what happens'. > > >> seen various discussions about old capacitors dying, etc but I'm not >> > > The main worry is not a capacitor Failing. The main worry IMHO is that if > there's a fault in the power supply regulation circuitry then that could > make the +5V line jump to a high enough voltage to wipe out just about > every chip in the machine. Expansive and difficult to put right. > I install 6VDC Transorbs on older TTL logic boards to protect the very expensive circuitry from a bad supply. The one I use is the 1N5908 - has a great surge reaction time, and if there is just too much current the little bugger will short out and take down the 5V supply...perhaps an inline fuse would be a good idea in case of runaway Vcc! John :-#)# PS. I recommend checking capacitors with an ohm-meter/ESR combination to check for shorted parts. > Now, of course, this circuit could fail at any time, and most good power > supplies have what's called a 'crowbar circuit' to protect against this. > But I still feel that wehn you come to a machine that's not been used for > some time, it's safest to disconenct the PSU from the rest of the > machine, connect the former to a dummy load (a set of suitably-rated > light bulbs) and test the pwoer supply separately. In some cases I've > even made up test boxes/harnesses to test commonly-used (for me) PSUs > quickly and easily. > > The problem (for you) is that doing this, on an unknown machine, takes > some experience. You have to know how to disconnect the PSU from the > logic (but leave the mains input connected), you have to work out > suitable dummy loads and connect them to the right wires/pins on the PSU. > Somebody elase here can probably talk you through waht to do, but it's > still a bit of work. > > -tony > > > -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Jun 3 17:19:01 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 18:19:01 -0400 Subject: powering up older machines - is it safe? Message-ID: <0K1W000YHRA8HHML@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: powering up older machines - is it safe? > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 04:39:09 +0100 (BST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> > The main worry is not a capacitor Failing. The main worry IMHO is that if >> > there's a fault in the power supply regulation circuitry then that could >> > make the +5V line jump to a high enough voltage to wipe out just about >> > every chip in the machine. Expansive and difficult to put right. However the swithers used are less likely to overvolt than fry the high voltage side (chopper fails!). In the case of the Robin that is there the risk is (other than the video board cap). Allison >> >> I don't disagree with the concern, but I'd be interested in hearing >> estimates on the probability of this taking place. Has anyone had it >> happen to them? > >Yes, sort-of.... > >I've never had it happen in a classic computer, but years ago I was >making a homebrew SC/MP machine. I'd obtained a surplus PSU which I'd >tested and worked fine, and then stuck on the shelf. I was foolish enough >to get it out a couple of mnths later and attempt to use it to power my >homebrew board. Alas something had failed in the PSU (I forget what, it >might just have been a dry joint...) the +5V output was at about 9V. This >wiped out the SC/MP, a couple of 2114s, and at least one TTL chip >(amazingly much of the TTL eurvived). > >I was a schoolboy at the time, and it took a lot of weeks of saving >pocket money to replace that SC/MP. I guess that's why I'm now (over-) >cautious... > >-tony From josecvalle at gmail.com Tue Jun 3 17:23:12 2008 From: josecvalle at gmail.com (Jose carlos Valle) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 19:23:12 -0300 Subject: UK Computer Museum on TV In-Reply-To: References: <136362.33934.qm@web82602.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Jason Great.. But, I am here in Brazil... so far way.. could you send me the DVD copy, please I am curator of Museu do Computador (computer museum Brazil) and I was techinician of that philips below the website.. It is amazing Museum... Jose Carlos Valle http://computermuseumbrazil.blogspot.com thanks BTW , could you help me with some persons of that Museum? I need to keep in touch. 2008/6/3 Jason Fitzpatrick : > Hi All, > > Just in case you're interested, we've had the Anglia TV film crew here > at the Centre for Computing History today, and they *should* be running > it on the Anglia news tonight at 6pm. There's also been a big feature in > the East Anglia Daily Times today - phew ... It's all go ! > > Obviously many of you won't be able to see it but there may be a few who > can ... > > I'll record it and post it online if there's any interest! > > Is there anyone local to Cambridge (UK) interested in being involved > with the museum? > It's been around for just over a year but things are really starting to > move now ... > > Cheers > Jason Fitzpatrick > www.ComputingHistory.org.uk > > > > > -- Jos? Carlos Valle ? Presidente curador www.museudocomputador.com.br Blog do curador: HTTP://museudocomputador.blogspot.com Tel office: 011 4666-7545 Skype Tel 3013-3946 - Cel: 011- 8609-7410 From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Jun 3 17:23:59 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 18:23:59 -0400 Subject: powering up older machines - is it safe? Message-ID: <0K1W00GRVR7JY02I@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: powering up older machines - is it safe? > From: Steven Hirsch > Date: Tue, 03 Jun 2008 09:00:15 -0400 (EDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > >On Mon, 2 Jun 2008, Allison wrote: > >> Generally yes in my exerience. The PS is a ASTEC switcher in the drive snippage... >Allison, > >Do you recall anything about the semi-mythical Corvus interface for the >VT180? It's mentioned in the Corvus technical literature, but I've never >talked to anyone that's actually seen it in the wild. I'm curious if it >ever actually existed. > >Steve Nothing mythical. There was a version of the corvus interface that was a board that went under the Z80 and therefor allowed most any Z80 system to accept the corvus hardware. It wasn't however sold as a uniquely Robin thing. FYI the Robin does not have any for of external bus. If you want access to the bus you have to jack up the Z80 and grab it there. I ahve a Vt180, Vt185 (VT125+VT185 board) and maybe 4 VT180 boards rigged as standalone and a dozen more if I need a Z80, 8k of shadow rom, 65K of ram, 4 serial ports and a FDC on one nice board. Allison From innfoclassics at gmail.com Wed Jun 4 01:28:13 2008 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 23:28:13 -0700 Subject: HP Keyboards In-Reply-To: References: <00ABA88B609849268552DA439E272851@xp1800> Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 6:06 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> Does any one knows if the keyboards of the 9000/200 series are >> interchangeble with the HP-150 keyboards ? > > Well, the HP150-II and the HP9817 (9000/217) both use HP-HIL keyboards, > and those are the same. > > But the original HP150 keyboard is not interchangeable with, say, the > HP9816 (9000/216) keyboard. The interface is very different. I have > schematics for both, BTW. > > -tony > -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Wed Jun 4 03:23:47 2008 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 09:23:47 +0100 Subject: Venner Electronics Modules In-Reply-To: <483C6678.B71BB11C@cs.ubc.ca> References: <751F36C8-2BC3-11DD-8FB5-00306573263E@kaput.homeunix.org> <483C6678.B71BB11C@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: Brent browsing your site and I came accross some HP part number cross references on http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/HP21xx/CTL.html In an HP "bench briefs" publication dated 3rd and 4th quarters 1990 they listed the hp part number, the makers code and part number HP Maker Partnumber ,your info 1820-0186 02237 9856DC , ? dual 2-in AND, dual resistors B2,2100 1820-0187 02237 9852DC ,? ? dual 2-in NOR, dual resistors B2,2100 1820-0482 02237 9838DC ,? ? binary to 1-of-8 decoder 2100 1820-0485 02237 9816DC ,? ? hex level restorer (2-in AND, quint 1-in) 2100 1820-0952 02237 952DC ,9952 SL3455 dual 2-in NOR F66,B2,2100 1820-0953 02237 953DC ,9953 SL3456 dual 2-in AND, 3-in AND F66,B2,2100 1820-0954 9954 ? dual 4-in AND F66,B2,2100 1820-0955 9955 ? 8-in AND F66,B2,2100 1820-0956 9956 SL3459 dual 2-in AND Buffer F66,B2,2100 1820-0957 9957 ? MS FF F66,B2,2100 1820-0964 9964 ? dual 3-in AND, 1-in gate, OR'able F66,B2,2100 1820-0965 9965 ? quad 1-in gate, OR'able F66,B2,2100 1820-0966 9966 ? quad 2-in AND, 2 outputs ORed F66,B2,2100 1820-0967 9967 ? JK FF F66,B2,2100 1820-0968 9968 ? dual Latch F66,B2,2100 1820-0971 9971 SL3467 quad 2-in AND, outputs ORed in 2 pairs F66,B2,2100 1820-0972 ? ? dual 2-in NOR, dual resistors 2100 1820-0973 ? ? dual 2-in AND, 3-in AND 2100 1820-0974 ? ? dual 2-in AND, dual resistors 2100 1820-0975 On 5/27/08, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Alexis wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > I've got here some electronic modules made by Venner Electronics LTD, > > Kingston By-Pass, New Malden, Surrey. One is a Transistor Decade Unit > > type TS.10/5 and the other just has Type TS 11/HF on it, where 11/HF is > > scratched into the metal label. > > > > Opening one reveals a number of Mullard OC44 Ge transistors. > > > > What on earth are they for? I can imagine they're for some sort of > > digital machine or even a whole computer, but I can't find any > > information about them or the company. > > > I have a Venner TSA 3336 counter that uses those modules, as well as the > leaflet-style manuals for the various modules. > Pictures and description of the counter and modules are at: > http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/edte/VennerTSA3336/index.html > > The novel thing about the counter is it uses meter-projection displays > (horribly finicky things). > > The counter modules are typical 4 flip-flop decade counters, including 4 > resistors in a simple D-A arrangement to drive the meter-projection displays. > According to the leaflets the 10/5 is a decade counter good to 30KHz, the 11/HF > is a decade 'selector' (same but has all outputs brought out to a connector), > good to 1MHz. > From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Wed Jun 4 03:38:16 2008 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 09:38:16 +0100 Subject: Venner Electronics Modules In-Reply-To: <483C6678.B71BB11C@cs.ubc.ca> References: <751F36C8-2BC3-11DD-8FB5-00306573263E@kaput.homeunix.org> <483C6678.B71BB11C@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: oops got sent too soon Brent browsing your site and I came accross some HP part number cross references on http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/HP21xx/CTL.html In an HP "bench briefs" publication dated 3rd and 4th quarters 1990 they listed the hp part number, the makers code and part number HP Maker Partnumber ,your info 1820-0186 02237 9856DC , ? dual 2-in AND, dual resistors B2,2100 1820-0187 02237 9852DC ,? ? dual 2-in NOR, dual resistors B2,2100 1820-0482 02237 9838DC ,? ? binary to 1-of-8 decoder 2100 1820-0485 02237 9816DC ,? ? hex level restorer (2-in AND, quint 1-in) 2100 1820-0952 02237 952DC ,9952 SL3455 dual 2-in NOR F66,B2,2100 1820-0953 02237 953DC ,9953 SL3456 dual 2-in AND, 3-in AND F66,B2,2100 1820-0954 02237 954DC ,9954 ? dual 4-in AND F66,B2,2100 1820-0955 02237 955DC ,9955 ? 8-in AND F66,B2,2100 1820-0956 02237 956DC ,9956 SL3459 dual 2-in AND Buffer F66,B2,2100 1820-0957 02237 957DC ,9957 ? MS FF F66,B2,2100 1820-0964 02237 964DC ,9964 ? dual 3-in AND, 1-in gate, OR'able F66,B2,2100 1820-0965 02237 965DC ,9965 ? quad 1-in gate, OR'able F66,B2,2100 1820-0966 02237 966DC ,9966 ? quad 2-in AND, 2 outputs ORed F66,B2,2100 1820-0967 02237 967DC ,9967 ? JK FF F66,B2,2100 1820-0968 02237 968DC ,9968 ? dual Latch F66,B2,2100 1820-0971 02237 971DC ,9971 SL3467 quad 2-in AND, outputs ORed in 2 pairs F66,B2,2100 1820-0972 02237 952DC ,? ? dual 2-in NOR, dual resistors 2100 1820-0973 02237 953DC ,? ? dual 2-in AND, 3-in AND 2100 1820-0974 02237 956DC ,? ? dual 2-in AND, dual resistors 2100 1820-0975 02237 967DC ,? ? JK FF (similar to -0967) 2100 Dave Caroline ps this list needs a full typing up/OCR so we can all use it From mike at brickfieldspark.org Wed Jun 4 03:38:16 2008 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 09:38:16 +0100 Subject: [personal] UK Computer Museum on TV References: Message-ID: <001301c8c61e$56323a70$961ca8c0@mss.local> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jason Fitzpatrick" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2008 3:05 PM Subject: [personal] UK Computer Museum on TV > Just in case you're interested, we've had the Anglia TV film crew here > at the Centre for Computing History today, and they *should* be running > it on the Anglia news tonight at 6pm. I'll record it and post it online if > there's any interest! Interest here, did you manage to get it recorded, we don't get Anglia down here. > Is there anyone local to Cambridge (UK) interested in being involved > with the museum? Would like to become involved but I am down in Hampshire in Aldershot, a bit to far. Have past experience with Elliott 803b, Digital PDP7 & 11/20, Scientific Data Systems SDS9300, ASR/KSR 33 & 35, Ampex TM4 tape drives. Best regards, Mike Hatch Soemtron 220/222/224 - www.soemtron.org Web - www.brickfieldspark.org E-mail - mike at brickfieldspark.org Urban Wildlife ring - www.brickfieldspark.org/uwringhome.htm From ian_primus at yahoo.com Wed Jun 4 07:50:20 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 05:50:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MicroVax 3900 current draw and heat output? Message-ID: <631594.71644.qm@web52706.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I'm in the process of thoroughly cleaning my MicroVax 3900 in preparation for installing it in my upstairs computer room. This will be the only "big"* machine up there, all the rest of the iron lives in my semi-finished basement computer room. (concrete floors, plenty of headroom, easy power installation...). The problem is, that my upstairs computer room has always had a bit of a problem with heat and power. I'm installing a second 15amp circuit, but heat dissapation will be limited to the central air conditioning and ceiling fan. So, what I'm wondering is... how much power will a MicroVax 3900, with two RA90's, draw? And similarly, how much heat will it put out? Thanks! -Ian * Note how I put "big" in quotes. I know that a MicroVax 3900 is not a big machine, compared to, say, most of the other Vaxen and stuff I own. But, it's bigger than an SGI Octane, it's bigger than a Macintosh, and it's bigger than the PC's and all the other boxen that live upstairs. So, comparatively, it's "big". Ironically, however, I think it's smaller than my printer. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Jun 4 09:10:30 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 09:10:30 -0500 Subject: Australian Computer Museum Message-ID: <4846A256.7000300@gmail.com> Does anyone know the fate of the Australian Computer Museum? Looking at their website at http://www.acms.org.au it looks like they were in real trouble a couple of months back. Does anyone know if they found alternative storage space for the collection (and therefore that the website just hasn't been updated)? cheers Jules From jason at havnet.net Wed Jun 4 09:31:56 2008 From: jason at havnet.net (Jason Fitzpatrick) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 15:31:56 +0100 Subject: UK Computer Museum on TV In-Reply-To: <511793.1642.qm@web23402.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <73E757C52513435B95B97B8C024020CF@JasonLaptop> Hi All, I've had quite a few requests from people asking is I recorded the news item regarding the computer history museum in Haverhill. You can now view it online via our local town website : http://www.haverhill-uk.com/cgi-bin/hav/haverhilltv.pl?act=play&id=2051 Sadly, the item turned out to be a bit shallow, focusing only on computer games but hey ho, that's the media for you! It had a really good write up in the East Anglian Daily Times too ... You can read it on page 22 here : http://editions.pagesuite.co.uk//PageSuite3.aspx?page=1&scale=100&height =700&width=1000&editionid=53801&filekey=&path=_PSEDitions/Archant/EADT%2 0-%20East/2008-06-03/ Thanks for your interest ... Regards Jason Fitzpatrick www.ComputingHistory.org.uk -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Andrew Burton Sent: 03 June 2008 23:13 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: UK Computer Museum on TV I for one would like to see it (hope you remembered to record it!). I would see it myself, but our aerial is actually pointed to Central and not Sandy Heath (Anglia TV) after my parents got some guy out to allow my & my bro to have a 2nd aerial line fitted into our bedroom years ago. We didn't realise what he had done until he had left and he never returned any of my dads phone calls. I guess you could say he was a rogue trader of sorts. I couldn't be more local to Cambridge... ok, perhaps I could if I lived *in* Cambridge and not nearby (Cottenham). I'd certainly be interested in being involved with the museum, once I get up and running with my car. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1481 - Release Date: 03/06/2008 19:31 From gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at Wed Jun 4 09:47:31 2008 From: gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at (DI Gerhard Kreuzer) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 16:47:31 +0200 Subject: Australian Computer Museum Message-ID: <20080604164731.j3pxn79p0gk8s8so@webmail.izone.at> Hi, I just recognize this situation before 1th of April, and I send eMails, that I could take care of one or two dec systems (pdp8) but I never get an answer back. Hope their systems arnt scraped!!!!!!! Yours Gerhard From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed Jun 4 11:16:14 2008 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 12:16:14 -0400 Subject: powering up older machines - is it safe? In-Reply-To: References: <0K1W00GRVR7JY02I@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <4846BFCE.8000201@verizon.net> subject needs to reflect corvis + Vt180 Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Tue, 3 Jun 2008, Allison wrote: > >>> Do you recall anything about the semi-mythical Corvus interface for the >>> VT180? It's mentioned in the Corvus technical literature, but I've >>> never >>> talked to anyone that's actually seen it in the wild. I'm curious >>> if it >>> ever actually existed. >>> >> Nothing mythical. There was a version of the corvus interface that >> was a board that went under the Z80 and therefor allowed most any >> Z80 system to accept the corvus hardware. It wasn't however sold as >> a uniquely Robin thing. > > Hmm. Definitely referred to as the VT180 interface in the Corvus > book, but perhaps that was more of a statement about the software? > likely the disk and driver code (bios overlay). > If anyone has one of these, I am very interested in owning it. > >> FYI the Robin does not have any for of external bus. If you want >> access to the bus you have to jack up the Z80 and grab it there. > > Corvus took other routes as well. The interface for Xerox 820 > connects to a pair of what appear to be parallel IO ports on the > motherboard. Given the limited transfer rate, it certainly did not > need to be sitting on the processor bus. > > Steve don't confuse speed with means of attachment. for example VT180 has no parallel ports accessible. other machines may have. Allison From mike at brickfieldspark.org Wed Jun 4 11:28:32 2008 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 17:28:32 +0100 Subject: UK PDP 11/10 - 11/40 NGTE Installations Message-ID: <001f01c8c660$082c7330$961ca8c0@mss.local> For those intersted in DEC equipment and one aspect of their their usage (UK I'm afraid) Details of a now defunct Military installation that used various DEC computers has recently gone online. These documents from about 1980 show PDP 11/10's and 11/40's used for jet engine research and how they were utilised. I was the tech involved in the installation of the 11/40 in the mid 1970's, and maintenance at that time of the PDP7, SDS9300 and Elliot 803B systems. I also lists an ICL1904s running George Mk 8.64. It was all decomissioned in 2002, who knows where all the kit went but the urban explorer forums say it has all gone. Typical UK government, we dont want it so nobody can have it. Main document - http://www.ngte.co.uk/doc/doc/etf1.htm Data processingsection - http://www.ngte.co.uk/doc/doc/etf5.htm Mike. From dgahling at hotmail.com Wed Jun 4 13:05:29 2008 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 14:05:29 -0400 Subject: Trying again, wanted: volker-craig terminals Message-ID: I'm trying this again, since I still haven't gotten one, I'm looking for a volker-craig terminal, preferably an 4404 (not a 3000-series). I used these at western and would love to have one. If anyone has one they want to get rid of, sell, trade, etc, please let me know. Thanks, Dan. _________________________________________________________________ If you like crossword puzzles, then you'll love Flexicon, a game which combines four overlapping crossword puzzles into one! http://g.msn.ca/ca55/208 From legalize at xmission.com Wed Jun 4 13:10:16 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 12:10:16 -0600 Subject: is this a terminal multiplexer? Message-ID: See ebay item # 120269073061 We've talked about terminal multiplexers here before, as opposed to terminal servers. They sound like interesting devices to me and I was wondering if this item on ebay is one of those muxes or some kind of telecom equipment instead (its listed under telecom, but ebay items are often listed under the wrong category). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jun 4 13:19:18 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 11:19:18 -0700 Subject: is this a terminal multiplexer? Message-ID: <4846DCA6.808@bitsavers.org> It is a T1 channel bank. One end of a multiplexed point to point connection through a (roughly) 1mbit pipe. Most of the cards are for POTS lines. From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Wed Jun 4 13:33:40 2008 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 19:33:40 +0100 Subject: is this a terminal multiplexer? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: google the part number (I got 5 results all sales) . PCM implies its a telecom system but maybe they made a terminal mux direct to PCM, not clear from the description on Ebay. I have also seen the term "terminal concentrator" to describe a multiple terminal multiplexor/modem device. Dave Caroline From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Jun 4 13:56:54 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 14:56:54 -0400 Subject: Documation tags Message-ID: I have a couple of metal tags for a Documation M200 card reader - one the front green tag with M200 and the logo, and the other the back (bottom?) black tag with the serial number and stuff. Both in pretty nice shape. All this for a buck! Postage included! Don't be a dick and reply off list, please... -- Will From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Jun 4 15:32:16 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 15:32:16 -0500 Subject: Good Composite->VGA converters for classic computers (& video games...) In-Reply-To: References: <4841BCBA.1070109@msu.edu> Message-ID: <4846FBD0.9000009@oldskool.org> Steven Hirsch wrote: > Just picked up a Wei-Ya ACV-011 CGA --> VGA converter board with the > intention of using it with a Commodore 128 (and possibly Amiga). It > doesn't have a true TTL input, but there is a C128 enthusiast out there > who published a small circuit to do the RGBI --> CGA interface. Any link to the circuit? I might want to try this with my IBM CGA. I also have an Extron unit that I'll eventually hook up, once I can find cables and/or pinouts. > I still do not have a workable solution to bridge Apple II (not GS) > composite video. That's the one that really has the non-standard format. All this talk about the Apple II composite video, and yet I swear I had at least one or two composite capture cards that could sync to it and grab it just fine... Iomega Buz perhaps? I have captured video as proof on a CDROM so maybe that's a solution -- a brooktree or similar cheap capture card, displaying the results realtime on a VGA monitor? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 3 21:32:25 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 03:32:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: Good Composite->VGA converters for classic computers (& video In-Reply-To: from "Steven Hirsch" at Jun 3, 8 07:59:34 am Message-ID: > Just picked up a Wei-Ya ACV-011 CGA --> VGA converter board with the > intention of using it with a Commodore 128 (and possibly Amiga). It > doesn't have a true TTL input, but there is a C128 enthusiast out there > who published a small circuit to do the RGBI --> CGA interface. Err, what is a 'CGA Interface' if not a TTL-level RGBI one? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 3 21:39:03 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 03:39:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: Semi-OT? HP 1630G Logic Analyser (grabbers, invasm packs & disk In-Reply-To: from "JP Hindin" at Jun 3, 8 04:29:20 pm Message-ID: > CPU instruction sets. What I do not have, though, is either the > appropriate disk drive set (HP 9121S or 9121D, according to the manual) > nor any of the invasm packs. The difference between the -S and -D is that the former is a single drive, the latter is a double. They're both single-sided 3.5" drives, IIRC usiong something odd like 70 tracks. IIRC the controller board, case, etc are the same between the 2 versions (there may be a link to shift). The -S has a little space to store disks where the second drive would go. [...] > There's a 9121D on eBay (6 days out) for $60 w/shipping, which is... > do-able but seems a shade hefty. Maybe they're getting harder to find > these days, I don't know. As for the invasm packs, for all I know they're I didn;t think the 9121 was particularly hard to find, but that may be becasue I am overrun with them (I think I have 5 9121Ds...) It is remarkably heave fro its zize, though (it's built in a metal chassis, there's a big mains transformer (linear PSU), etc), which might explain any high shipping charges. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 3 21:42:01 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 03:42:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: powering up older machines - is it safe? In-Reply-To: <001301c8c5c5$59b0fe60$5b01a8c0@FLEXPC> from "Antonio Carlini" at Jun 3, 8 11:01:16 pm Message-ID: > I can understand worrying about something that's not been used for > a few years, but if you check everything that's not been used for > just a few months, when do you have time to actually _do_ anything? Well, if I am using a machine every day, I don't check it every time (there's no point, the PSU could fail in the time between checking it and reconnectin it to the logic :-)). But if I get a machine out that I've not used recently, then, yes, I do check it. It doesn't take me long. I've probably done it before, so I know what to unplug, where to connect the dummy load (if needed) and the meter, and so on. In come cases, I've built up test units, in which case it takes even less time. And 10 minutes, or so, spent checking the PSU is easily a lot less than the time it would take me to sort out the damage caused by a malfunctioning PSU. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 3 21:51:13 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 03:51:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: powering up older machines - is it safe? In-Reply-To: <0K1W000YHRA8HHML@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> from "Allison" at Jun 3, 8 06:19:01 pm Message-ID: > However the swithers used are less likely to overvolt than fry the > high voltage side (chopper fails!). In the case of the Robin that That very much depends on the switcher!. In _any_ switching supply there can be a failure in the regulation loop. It's not common, and it's not what I'd really worry about, but that can make the voltage jump, of course. And in most swtichers, an open-circuit or high ESR capacitor on the output side can put high voltage spicks on the outputs. These spikes typically get bigger as you draw more current from the supply. I've had a couple of cases where the supply was fine on minimal load, but tripped the crowbar when you loarded it, precisely because the output capacitor was drying up. And both were in classic computer devices (a PDP11/44 CPU and an HP1350 graphics translator). I don't know if these spikes have enough energy to damage logic chips, but I wouldn't risk it! Howeever, there's an even worse case. There is a switching supply design that was quite common in classic computer hardware of the 1970's and 1980s. I've come across it in an HP printer/plotter, the PERQ 1, a Sanders printer, and so on. It goes like this : Incomiong mains is rectified/voltage doubled to give about 350V DC. This is fed to a non-isolating step-down switching regulator, giving about 150V on the output This feeds a free-running oscillator (typically 2 or 4 power transisotrs) which drivs the main chopper transformer. The output of that is rectified and smoothed as you'd expect, There's a feedback loop from the output to the _first_ stage (the step-down regulator), this controls the voltage supply to the oscillator, thuscontrolling the output voltage. Now for the failure. If the chopper transisotr in the first stage shorts, the output of that stage jumps to the 350V input. In most cases the oscillatorr keeps on running, and the low voltage outputs of the supply jump to over twice what they should be. Hopefully yhe crowbar fires. If not, then your logic is toast. If the crowbar does fire, well, it's not pleasant either, in that the overcurrent trip circuit normally operates on the 1st stage. Needless to say, if the chopper is shorted, it doesn't do a lot, with the result that when the crowbar fires, the oscialltor transistors die too, often shorted, which puts a dead short across the 350V supply. This gnereally results in current sense resistors,. small signal transistors, and even PCB tracks, exploding. And yes, I've seen it happen and had to sort it out. Fortunately the crowbar _did_ fire in my case, I had a nasty PSU rebuild, but the 1000-or-so chips i nthe PERQ 1A were OK. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 3 22:03:11 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 04:03:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP Keyboards In-Reply-To: from "Paxton Hoag" at Jun 3, 8 11:28:13 pm Message-ID: > > On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 6:06 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> Indeeed I did. Is somebody disputing that? -tony > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Does any one knows if the keyboards of the 9000/200 series are > >> interchangeble with the HP-150 keyboards ? > > > > Well, the HP150-II and the HP9817 (9000/217) both use HP-HIL keyboards, > > and those are the same. > > > > But the original HP150 keyboard is not interchangeable with, say, the > > HP9816 (9000/216) keyboard. The interface is very different. I have > > schematics for both, BTW. > > > > -tony > > > > > > -- > Paxton Hoag > Astoria, OR > USA > From db at db.net Wed Jun 4 16:31:29 2008 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 17:31:29 -0400 Subject: Trying again, wanted: volker-craig terminals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080604213129.GB62203@night.db.net> On Wed, Jun 04, 2008 at 02:05:29PM -0400, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > > I'm trying this again, since I still haven't gotten one, > I'm looking for a volker-craig terminal, preferably an 4404 (not a 3000-series). I have two of them sitting in the basement. One of which was known to work at one time, but last time I turned it on, it was dead. I have no idea which series they are, but they are the same model. Whereabouts are you? e-mail me... - Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 3 18:34:39 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2008 16:34:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: powering up older machines - is it safe? In-Reply-To: <4844724E.4040403@kuenzigbooks.com> Message-ID: <76899.60414.qm@web65505.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> capacitors will often give you a warning before blowing. In my experience anyway. The least of your worries, IMHO, is a capacitor going after you turn the unit on. From harten at injectstar.de Wed Jun 4 04:18:32 2008 From: harten at injectstar.de (Harten) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 10:18:32 +0100 Subject: NCR 7500 Series: Help needed In-Reply-To: <0K1W00GRVR7JY02I@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0K1W00GRVR7JY02I@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: Hi! Now that i have worked several months on the repair of a NCR 7500 System, i'm able to power it up and get some screen messages. But without a System-Tape to boot from nothing can be done. The tapes that came with the NCR are "NOT PROGRAM TAPE". Maybe the tapes are faulty too. Has anybody documentation and/or software for this machine? Axel Harten -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Jun 4 06:22:23 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 07:22:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: powering up older machines - is it safe? In-Reply-To: <0K1W00GRVR7JY02I@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0K1W00GRVR7JY02I@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jun 2008, Allison wrote: >> Do you recall anything about the semi-mythical Corvus interface for the >> VT180? It's mentioned in the Corvus technical literature, but I've never >> talked to anyone that's actually seen it in the wild. I'm curious if it >> ever actually existed. >> > Nothing mythical. There was a version of the corvus interface that > was a board that went under the Z80 and therefor allowed most any > Z80 system to accept the corvus hardware. It wasn't however sold as > a uniquely Robin thing. Hmm. Definitely referred to as the VT180 interface in the Corvus book, but perhaps that was more of a statement about the software? If anyone has one of these, I am very interested in owning it. > FYI the Robin does not have any for of external bus. If you want > access to the bus you have to jack up the Z80 and grab it there. Corvus took other routes as well. The interface for Xerox 820 connects to a pair of what appear to be parallel IO ports on the motherboard. Given the limited transfer rate, it certainly did not need to be sitting on the processor bus. Steve -- From support at simation.com Wed Jun 4 10:31:37 2008 From: support at simation.com (support at simation.com) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 10:31:37 -0500 Subject: PDP 11/93 + RSX 11M Message-ID: <000501c8c658$1544a0e0$0300000a@toshiba> Hello Henrique, i have same problem as you, reading BRUSYS floppy from RX33, do you get any help according to your question?, i would appreciate any help you can give me thank you Rolando Cornejo Dear Sir, I?m in trouble with the system as the boot stops at : RSX-11M - Plus V4.3 BL66 2044.KW System "Pt/Ps" > RED DU:=SY: when loading from RD53 (RZ 28M-E) and stops at: RSX-11M/RSX-11M Plus Standalone Copy System V03 when loading from RX33 (Brusys floppy) Do you have an idea why the boot does not go on? Thanks in advance, Henrique Gomes. From johnwatson97 at optusnet.com.au Wed Jun 4 11:15:13 2008 From: johnwatson97 at optusnet.com.au (JW) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 01:45:13 +0930 Subject: Reconstructing Fastback Plus Backups from floppies Message-ID: <473244C326C44BAFA5DA1FA137AD0FDE@x> Hi Gary, I saw your 12 Mar 2007 post about reconstructing Fastback files. I have EXACTLY the same problem ! Did you get a solution ? Regards, John Watson. From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Wed Jun 4 14:43:31 2008 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 20:43:31 +0100 Subject: UK PDP 11/10 - 11/40 NGTE Installations In-Reply-To: <001f01c8c660$082c7330$961ca8c0@mss.local> Message-ID: >>>> I was the tech involved in the installation of the 11/40 in the mid 1970's, and maintenance at that time of the PDP7, SDS9300 and Elliot 803B systems. I also lists an ICL1904s running George Mk 8.64. <<<< I see that the mainframe configuration included a "British Standard Interface" - so the one we had at City University wasn't the only one then :-) "George Mk 8.64" is presumably some release of George III (or possibly IV) Andy From spedraja at gmail.com Wed Jun 4 15:00:44 2008 From: spedraja at gmail.com (SPC) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 22:00:44 +0200 Subject: Searching (again) for some Arpanet-related Documents Message-ID: Hello. I should agree if someone could provide me one copy of these documents related with the Arpanet: * BBN Report n.2184, "TIP Hardware Manual" * BBN Report n.2161, "A Study of the ARPA Network Design and performance" * BBN Technical Information Report (TIR) n.89, "The Interface Message Processor Program" * BBN Technical Information Report (TIR) n.90, "The Network Control Center Program" * BBN Technical Information Report (TIR) n.91, "The Terminal Interface Message Processor Program" * BBN Technical Information Report (TIR) n.93, "The Remote Job Entry Mini-host" * BBN Reports n.2999, 2930, 3000, 3001, 2931, 3002, 3004, 3056 and 3126, all of them related with the Pluribus IMP. * NIC 6740, "The Network Resource Notebook" * NIC 7104, "ARPA Current Network Protocols" * NIC internal/informal notes named "TIP Users Group Notes" Thanks and Greetings Sergio From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Jun 4 16:54:18 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 16:54:18 -0500 Subject: Good Composite->VGA converters for classic computers (& video In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48470F0A.4030308@oldskool.org> Tony Duell wrote: >> Just picked up a Wei-Ya ACV-011 CGA --> VGA converter board with the >> intention of using it with a Commodore 128 (and possibly Amiga). It >> doesn't have a true TTL input, but there is a C128 enthusiast out there >> who published a small circuit to do the RGBI --> CGA interface. > > Err, what is a 'CGA Interface' if not a TTL-level RGBI one? Don't know, but remember how the 5153 has special circuitry that turns color index #6 brown? I don't think any converter anywhere would handle that properly and would just give me yellow, so my projects that require TV output from CGA are designed around the composite color output... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From schwepes at moog.netaxs.com Wed Jun 4 17:01:23 2008 From: schwepes at moog.netaxs.com (schwepes at moog.netaxs.com) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 18:01:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: powering up older machines - is it safe? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've had the issue twice. The first time was a Heathkit stereo where a bad capacitor killed the transformer and the second one was an Acer 286 that had a mouse problem, biological kind. bs On Wed, 4 Jun 2008, Tony Duell wrote: > > I can understand worrying about something that's not been used for > > a few years, but if you check everything that's not been used for > > just a few months, when do you have time to actually _do_ anything? > > Well, if I am using a machine every day, I don't check it every time > (there's no point, the PSU could fail in the time between checking it and > reconnectin it to the logic :-)). But if I get a machine out that I've > not used recently, then, yes, I do check it. > > It doesn't take me long. I've probably done it before, so I know what to > unplug, where to connect the dummy load (if needed) and the meter, and so > on. In come cases, I've built up test units, in which case it takes even > less time. > > And 10 minutes, or so, spent checking the PSU is easily a lot less than > the time it would take me to sort out the damage caused by a > malfunctioning PSU. > > -tony > > From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Jun 4 17:16:51 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 17:16:51 -0500 Subject: powering up older machines - is it safe? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48471453.3040607@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: > And 10 minutes, or so, spent checking the PSU is easily a lot less than > the time it would take me to sort out the damage caused by a > malfunctioning PSU. To be honest, I enjoy the checking prior to use just as much as I do actually using the system (I'm the same way with any vintage machinery - there's just as much fun to be had in problem determination / fixing as there is in actual use) From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Jun 4 18:01:19 2008 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 16:01:19 -0700 Subject: Good Composite->VGA converters for classic computers (& video games...) In-Reply-To: <4846FBD0.9000009@oldskool.org> References: <4841BCBA.1070109@msu.edu> <4846FBD0.9000009@oldskool.org> Message-ID: > All this talk about the Apple II composite video, and yet I swear I had at > least one or two composite capture cards that could sync to it and grab it > just fine... Iomega Buz perhaps? I have captured video as proof on a CDROM > so maybe that's a solution -- a brooktree or similar cheap capture card, > displaying the results realtime on a VGA monitor? I missed much of the earlier discussion. I haven't had a problem display Apple II composite with cheap (cheese block style) video->vga converters. Of course the color artifacts (colors on the left and right edges of 40 column characters) are awful, the same way they were awful on a real composite display. It's amazing how we just accepted them back in the day. "Wow! it's color!" The larger problem is how awful 640x480, 800x600 and 1024x768 output from all these various converters look when scaled to 1680x1050 on a 22" LCD. Ones that can output 1680x1050p directly are still well outside my price range and since they're made for TV even they don't have thresholded edge sharpening. Eric From keithvz at verizon.net Wed Jun 4 18:14:45 2008 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 19:14:45 -0400 Subject: is this a terminal multiplexer? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <484721E5.3010904@verizon.net> Richard wrote: > See ebay item # 120269073061 > > We've talked about terminal multiplexers here before, as opposed to > terminal servers. They sound like interesting devices to me and I was > wondering if this item on ebay is one of those muxes or some kind of > telecom equipment instead (its listed under telecom, but ebay items > are often listed under the wrong category). I've never participated in the past terminal server/mux conversations, but I happen to have a fair bit of experience with all types of this legacy equipment. The description is of course really weak, so I can only provide some educated guesses. This appears to be an async serial multiplexer. These were pretty popular at one point, and allowed several async serial rs-232 terminals & printers to communicate across a single SYNC composite WAN interface --- normally a 56K DDS circuit, or a fractional T1 --- depending on the capacity/baud rates/compression, etc. You can clearly see what looks like DB25 connectors, are those males? Anyways, the (24) ports are DB25's, where you'd hook up your serial devices.... There are also RJ21 Telco connectors -- these would be to simplify cabling to a patch panel, which might have matching telco connectors, so you don't have (24) thick cables running all over the place. Upper right hand corner connectors are probably the DB15 connectors which are probably to go to your WAN circuit, in this case, maybe a T1? It may actually support DROP and INSERT because of the two different RJ45's. Maybe DB15 with optional RJ45 if you want it. Lower right hand corner has DB25's, and those would be the composite SYNC serial connections for going to a T1 channel bank, or external CSU. Obviously if the top is a built-in CSU/DSU, the lower right connectors would likely not be used. (could also be just a built-in CSU, but requiring external DSU) One of the DB9's and/or one of the DB25's lower right connectors would be the console management serial interface -- for either hooking up a dumb terminal for configuration, or attaching a modem for remote configuration across a dialup modem. Last, but not least, the description says it has (24) 2-wire FXS cards. FXS is a phone interface for attaching directly to a regular analog phone, but I see no corresponding connectors on the box. There should be a bunch of individual cards with RJ-11's or perhaps terminal strips or something on them. I do see two strips, but the description just doesn't pan out --- If there are (24) cards, there should be (24) cards, and I just don't see them in the picture. (maybe not pictured??) Most muxes are not useful by themselves. They often encapsulate the ASYNC data coming from the DB25 connectors into a proprietary HDLC-like synchronous serial stream that traverses the connection --- and then you have a matching unit break that stream out on the other side. Last thing: its description says it's a PCM mux --- which usually indicates voice (analog voice into digital, across a T1) which goes along with the other description of the (24) FXS cards --- BUT: the picture is clearly some sort of DATA-mux... The long and short: I think this would be a horrible waste of (shipping) money to buy this. YMMV. Keith From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Jun 4 18:19:04 2008 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 16:19:04 -0700 Subject: Good Composite->VGA converters for classic computers (& video In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Err, what is a 'CGA Interface' if not a TTL-level RGBI one? > Don't know, but remember how the 5153 has special circuitry that turns color index #6 brown? Most of what are currently called "CGA->VGA" converters are analog RGB input at CGA/NTSC frequencies to (scan converted) analog RGB output at VGA frequencies. Which is a good thing because they are build for the (much larger) classic video game market so they are more veratile than a strict CGA->VGA converter would be. S\o you need a small circuit to mix I with the RGB to get an a 3 level (0,0.5,1) signal that these boards can understand. You could easily add a "yellow->brown" converter to this circuit by pulling down the appropriate lines in a resistor divider when color #6 shows up. It would add 1 chip and two resistors to the design (off the top of my head). Eric From chd_1 at nktelco.net Wed Jun 4 18:40:08 2008 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H Dickman) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 19:40:08 -0400 Subject: classic computer/game machine color video generation Message-ID: <484727D8.2090603@nktelco.net> How is the color video for display on a TV generated? I have a reasonable understanding of how the composite video signal works, although probably not all the details. Each horizontal scan line consists of a lower frequency signal that represents the brightness with higher voltage being darker. Added to this is a higher frequency signal that represents color and the color is determined not by amplitude, but by phase shift relative to a reference generated during the horizontal retrace time. So, if this is how the video signal works, then to generate 16 colors, we could use one bit for a brightness level and 3 bits to select a color. I can see a D F/F to hold the brightness level during a pixel time.For color, I see an 8 bit shift register with the color signal being shifted though and an 8 to 1 multiplexer to select the phase based on the 3 color bits during each pixel time. Now add some resistors to set the right levels and maybe some capacitors to take off the sharp edges and you have a video signal. I know this is ignoring the sync signals. I am really interested in how you get color. OK, so how close am I? -chuck From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Jun 4 19:05:11 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 17:05:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: classic computer/game machine color video generation In-Reply-To: <484727D8.2090603@nktelco.net> References: <484727D8.2090603@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <33946.64.62.206.10.1212624311.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Charles wrote: > OK, so how close am I? What you described is fairly close to how the IBM CGA adapter generated composite video. For the chroma signal, rather than a shift register, they used three flip-flops clocked in such a manner as to produce six color phases (three phases and their 180 degree opposites). Three bits of the pixel value drive an 8:1 multiplexer to select one of these colors, or black or white (mux inputs tied to logic 0 or 1). Eric From gil at baudot.net Wed Jun 4 19:13:13 2008 From: gil at baudot.net (gil smith) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 17:13:13 -0700 Subject: WTB: Cromemco SCC card In-Reply-To: <484721E5.3010904@verizon.net> References: <484721E5.3010904@verizon.net> Message-ID: <6.1.2.0.2.20080604171112.02ac6e30@mail.vauxelectronics.com> Hi folks: I am looking for a Cromemco SCC card -- anybody have one that needs a home (for a fair price)? I want to hook the SCC to an ASR33 and let my cub scouts load BASIC progs from paper tape. The SCC is nice since everything is built into one card, including the interpreter and a 20-mil loop. ps: I am new to this list. I have quite a bit of teletype gear that I collect and restore, and I moderate a tty email group. Have some old computer stuff too: Osbornes, Compaq, IBM, HP-85. Worked at Cray Research for a couple of years, but most of my background is elect engr. My first computer class was FORTRAN using punch cards. That'll date me. thanks, gil smith Vaux Electronics, Inc. 480-354-5556 (fax: 480-354-5558) www.vauxelectronics.com From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jun 4 21:16:35 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 19:16:35 -0700 Subject: Good Composite->VGA converters for classic computers (& video games...) In-Reply-To: <4846FBD0.9000009@oldskool.org> References: <4841BCBA.1070109@msu.edu> <4846FBD0.9000009@oldskool.org> Message-ID: At 3:32 PM -0500 6/4/08, Jim Leonard wrote: >>I still do not have a workable solution to bridge Apple II (not GS) >>composite video. That's the one that really has the non-standard >>format. > >All this talk about the Apple II composite video, and yet I swear I >had at least one or two composite capture cards that could sync to >it and grab it just fine... Iomega Buz perhaps? I have captured >video as proof on a CDROM so maybe that's a solution -- a brooktree >or similar cheap capture card, displaying the results realtime on a >VGA monitor? I've used a Canopus ADVC-100 (Video-to-Firewire converter) to display Apple II video on my PowerMac G5. Simply plugged it in and fired up iMovie. I don't remember if this was with a IIc, IIgs, or both. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Jun 4 23:49:49 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 23:49:49 -0500 Subject: Reconstructing Fastback Plus Backups from floppies In-Reply-To: <473244C326C44BAFA5DA1FA137AD0FDE@x> References: <473244C326C44BAFA5DA1FA137AD0FDE@x> Message-ID: <4847706D.8010209@oldskool.org> JW wrote: > I saw your 12 Mar 2007 post about reconstructing Fastback files. I have EXACTLY the same problem ! Did you get a solution ? I missed that post, but if you need the software, I have a link to it on my Floppy Backup shootout: http://www.oldskool.org/guides/dosbackupshootout -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Wed Jun 4 18:15:12 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 19:15:12 -0400 Subject: N8VEM homebrew SBC PCBs In-Reply-To: <000301c8c121$27cda810$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> References: <000301c8c121$27cda810$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <48472200.5080808@bellatlantic.net> HI Andrew, Need the usual information to order, address and how you want the check made out. Sorry I don't do Paypal. I allow for holding the check till it clears. Allison Andrew Lynch wrote: > Hi All, > > I did finally finish my homebrew SBC PCBs and made an order for several. > The manufacturer says they should arrive about 5 Jun 2008 or so. > > If anyone is interested in building their own, please let me know. The > details about the SBC are at: > > http://groups.google.com/group/n8vem/web/n8vem-single-board-computer-home-pa > ge > > http://groups.google.com/group/n8vem > > Thanks! > > Andrew Lynch > > From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Jun 4 19:10:53 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 20:10:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Good Composite->VGA converters for classic computers (& video games...) In-Reply-To: <4846FBD0.9000009@oldskool.org> References: <4841BCBA.1070109@msu.edu> <4846FBD0.9000009@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jun 2008, Jim Leonard wrote: > Steven Hirsch wrote: >> Just picked up a Wei-Ya ACV-011 CGA --> VGA converter board with the >> intention of using it with a Commodore 128 (and possibly Amiga). It >> doesn't have a true TTL input, but there is a C128 enthusiast out there who >> published a small circuit to do the RGBI --> CGA interface. > > Any link to the circuit? I might want to try this with my IBM CGA. I also > have an Extron unit that I'll eventually hook up, once I can find cables > and/or pinouts. Search comp.sys.cbm in Google groups for a thread titled: "Fotios' C=128-RGBI-to-VGA hack with IBM-CGA color fix for brown" Between the postings there and his links, all should become clear. I'm planning to build this RGBI --> CGA converter this weekend. Steve -- From snhirsch at gmail.com Wed Jun 4 19:20:34 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2008 20:20:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Good Composite->VGA converters for classic computers (& video In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 4 Jun 2008, Tony Duell wrote: >> Just picked up a Wei-Ya ACV-011 CGA --> VGA converter board with the >> intention of using it with a Commodore 128 (and possibly Amiga). It >> doesn't have a true TTL input, but there is a C128 enthusiast out there >> who published a small circuit to do the RGBI --> CGA interface. > > Err, what is a 'CGA Interface' if not a TTL-level RGBI one? It's an RGB interface - without support for the 'I'. I also believe it is not pure TTL, as it understands and responds to varying levels on the inputs. The RGBI adapter takes advantage of this last fact. Steve -- From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Jun 5 02:34:35 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 04 Jun 2008 23:34:35 -0800 Subject: HP 2100 & CTuL ICs / was Re: Venner Electronics Modules References: <751F36C8-2BC3-11DD-8FB5-00306573263E@kaput.homeunix.org> <483C6678.B71BB11C@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4847970B.8D158A2D@cs.ubc.ca> Fills in a few blanks, most of those unID'd ICs were late (~1970?) additions to the CTuL series that appeared in the 2100A/S docs. Perhaps the stranger thing is that they were being listed in the bench briefs in 1990, long after they were obsolete. What was the context of their mention? (Couldn't find 02237 in the HP manufacturer's list that I have). Dave Caroline wrote: > > oops got sent too soon > Brent browsing your site and I came accross some HP part number cross > references on http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/e/HP21xx/CTL.html > > In an HP "bench briefs" publication dated 3rd and 4th quarters 1990 > they listed the hp part number, the makers code and part number > > HP Maker Partnumber ,your info > 1820-0186 02237 9856DC , ? dual 2-in AND, dual > resistors B2,2100 > 1820-0187 02237 9852DC ,? ? dual 2-in NOR, dual > resistors B2,2100 > 1820-0482 02237 9838DC ,? ? binary to 1-of-8 > decoder 2100 > 1820-0485 02237 9816DC ,? ? hex level restorer (2-in > AND, quint 1-in) 2100 > 1820-0952 02237 952DC ,9952 SL3455 dual 2-in > NOR F66,B2,2100 > 1820-0953 02237 953DC ,9953 SL3456 dual 2-in AND, > 3-in AND F66,B2,2100 > 1820-0954 02237 954DC ,9954 ? dual 4-in AND F66,B2,2100 > 1820-0955 02237 955DC ,9955 ? 8-in AND F66,B2,2100 > 1820-0956 02237 956DC ,9956 SL3459 dual 2-in AND > Buffer F66,B2,2100 > 1820-0957 02237 957DC ,9957 ? MS FF F66,B2,2100 > 1820-0964 02237 964DC ,9964 ? dual 3-in AND, 1-in > gate, OR'able F66,B2,2100 > 1820-0965 02237 965DC ,9965 ? quad 1-in gate, OR'able > F66,B2,2100 > 1820-0966 02237 966DC ,9966 ? quad 2-in AND, 2 > outputs ORed F66,B2,2100 > 1820-0967 02237 967DC ,9967 ? JK FF F66,B2,2100 > 1820-0968 02237 968DC ,9968 ? dual Latch F66,B2,2100 > 1820-0971 02237 971DC ,9971 SL3467 quad 2-in AND, > outputs ORed in 2 pairs F66,B2,2100 > 1820-0972 02237 952DC ,? ? dual 2-in NOR, dual resistors 2100 > 1820-0973 02237 953DC ,? ? dual 2-in AND, 3-in AND 2100 > 1820-0974 02237 956DC ,? ? dual 2-in AND, dual resistors 2100 > 1820-0975 02237 967DC ,? ? JK FF (similar to -0967) 2100 > > Dave Caroline > ps this list needs a full typing up/OCR so we can all use it From dave.thearchivist at gmail.com Thu Jun 5 03:03:43 2008 From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com (Dave Caroline) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 09:03:43 +0100 Subject: HP 2100 & CTuL ICs / was Re: Venner Electronics Modules In-Reply-To: <4847970B.8D158A2D@cs.ubc.ca> References: <751F36C8-2BC3-11DD-8FB5-00306573263E@kaput.homeunix.org> <483C6678.B71BB11C@cs.ubc.ca> <4847970B.8D158A2D@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: Context of the mention seems to be just a full listing for HP bench engineers (it was obtained from an HP engineer) I only have a photo copy of the listing pages (some cut off at the left) I shall scan as soon as I can, an OCR is needed. It also covers Transistors and Diodes. I will look up 02237 in some old manuals when I get chance (I have a few, not catalogued all yet but http://www.collection.archivist.info/searchv10.php?srcdata=title&srcprog=searchv10.php&searchv4page=1&errlev=0&searchstr=hp ), I just looked in some PDF's and didnt find it, I can see another list we need to make by trawling through the old manuals for manufacturers codes. Dave Caroline On 6/5/08, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Fills in a few blanks, most of those unID'd ICs were late (~1970?) additions to > the CTuL series that appeared in the 2100A/S docs. Perhaps the stranger thing > is that they were being listed in the bench briefs in 1990, long after they > were obsolete. What was the context of their mention? > > (Couldn't find 02237 in the HP manufacturer's list that I have). > From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Thu Jun 5 03:50:08 2008 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 09:50:08 +0100 Subject: [personal] UK Computer Museum on TV In-Reply-To: <200806041435.m54EZHaW040229@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200806041435.m54EZHaW040229@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <3703D886-7F80-41B3-A4B7-56AF7EE93C97@microspot.co.uk> > From: "Mike Hatch" > > Have past experience with Elliott 803b, Digital PDP7 & 11/20, > Scientific > Data Systems SDS9300, ASR/KSR 33 & 35, Ampex TM4 tape drives. May I ask what machine the Ampex TM4 tape drives were connected to? I have them on my ICT 1301s, and I have a slightly different deck marked TM4 Leo but if you know of any other machines which used them it would be interesting. Do you know if they were always ten track read/write heads or were they different configurations? I guess the formats were different across different machines, it seems unlikely anyone else would have chosen to use 4 data bits and 6 CRC bits, and certainly not in multiples of 12 digits with the digits from each half of the word interspersed ending at a word of hex FFFFFFFFFFFF. Roger From mike at brickfieldspark.org Thu Jun 5 04:18:46 2008 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:18:46 +0100 Subject: [personal] RE: UK PDP 11/10 - 11/40 NGTE Installations References: Message-ID: <004101c8c6ed$28f60620$961ca8c0@mss.local> That ICL 1904 installation was after my time and I presume it replaced the SDS 9300, did not think George went up as high as version 8. Photos in the document show the 11/40 in the same position as I remember, and recent forum posts show the same wallpaper as appear in the 11/40 photo over 20 years later ! . Who knows what a "British Standard Interface" was, all the interfaces on those machines were usually hand built in house, I did some of them !. Mike. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Andy Holt" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, June 04, 2008 8:43 PM Subject: [personal] RE: UK PDP 11/10 - 11/40 NGTE Installations >>>>> > I was the tech involved in the installation of the 11/40 in the mid > 1970's, > and maintenance at that time of the PDP7, SDS9300 and Elliot 803B systems. > It > also lists an ICL1904 running George Mk 8.64. > <<<< > I see that the mainframe configuration included a "British Standard > Interface" - > so the one we had at City University wasn't the only one then :-) > "George Mk 8.64" is presumably some release of George III (or possibly IV) > > Andy > > > > From mike at brickfieldspark.org Thu Jun 5 08:15:45 2008 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 14:15:45 +0100 Subject: [personal] UK Computer Museum on TV References: <200806041435.m54EZHaW040229@dewey.classiccmp.org> <3703D886-7F80-41B3-A4B7-56AF7EE93C97@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <000701c8c70e$4420f7e0$961ca8c0@mss.local> TM4's were on the SDS9300, six of them, as I recall they were 10 track but something also says 9 track, after all it was 35 years ago !.. There were also TM4's fitted to an ICL (I think a 1901) machine up in London but I only visited for service once (dirty contacts on the tape arm switches). There were also TM2 drives on a LEO3 #26 at Charles House in London maintained by ICL for running gas bills. I gather quite a number of the Leo machines used TM drives. Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Holmes" To: Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 9:50 AM Subject: Re: [personal] UK Computer Museum on TV >> From: "Mike Hatch" >> > >> Have past experience with Elliott 803b, Digital PDP7 & 11/20, Scientific >> Data Systems SDS9300, ASR/KSR 33 & 35, Ampex TM4 tape drives. > > May I ask what machine the Ampex TM4 tape drives were connected to? I > have them on my ICT 1301s, and I have a slightly different deck marked > TM4 Leo but if you know of any other machines which used them it would be > interesting. Do you know if they were always ten track read/write heads > or were they different configurations? I guess the formats were different > across different machines, it seems unlikely anyone else would have > chosen to use 4 data bits and 6 CRC bits, and certainly not in multiples > of 12 digits with the digits from each half of the word interspersed > ending at a word of hex FFFFFFFFFFFF. > > Roger > > From mross666 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 5 11:51:27 2008 From: mross666 at hotmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 16:51:27 +0000 Subject: Corestore - the Big Move Message-ID: Well, here's what happened: http://www.corestore.org/coremove.htm Some days I wish I had taken up stamp collecting... Thanks to all who volunteered to give a home to the Convex! Mike http://www.corestore.org _________________________________________________________________ Search that pays you back! Introducing Live Search cashback. http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=srchpaysyouback From jim at photojim.ca Thu Jun 5 12:02:49 2008 From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 11:02:49 -0600 Subject: Corestore - the Big Move References: Message-ID: <019101c8c72d$fc0152a0$1802a8c0@JIMM> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Ross" To: Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 10:51 AM Subject: Corestore - the Big Move Some days I wish I had taken up stamp collecting... === Who says they're mutually exclusive? :) I seem to collect computers, stamps, cameras, chess sets... Jim From arcbe2001 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 5 12:55:09 2008 From: arcbe2001 at yahoo.com (Russ Bartlett) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 10:55:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NCR 7500 Series: Help needed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <93713.52074.qm@web32801.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi Axel - you may want to reach out to the http://www.thecorememory.com/ a web site dedicate to NCR Systems Russ --- On Wed, 6/4/08, Harten <harten at injectstar.de> wrote: From: Harten <harten at injectstar.de> Subject: NCR 7500 Series: Help needed To: cctech at classiccmp.org Date: Wednesday, June 4, 2008, 5:18 AM Hi! Now that i have worked several months on the repair of a NCR 7500 System, i'm able to power it up and get some screen messages. But without a System-Tape to boot from nothing can be done. The tapes that came with the NCR are "NOT PROGRAM TAPE". Maybe the tapes are faulty too. Has anybody documentation and/or software for this machine? Axel Harten -- From lehmann at ans-netz.de Thu Jun 5 13:02:22 2008 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 20:02:22 +0200 Subject: C <-> ASM translation problem In-Reply-To: References: <20080531130015.2f61d66d.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Message-ID: <20080605200222.09baf792.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Hi, I've put the question together with some more input at http://pofo.de/P8000/problems.php Yesterday I solved another problem which - I thought - was a bit simmilar I had the following ASM code: ldk r2,#0 ldb rl2,_u+1060 ld r3,r2 neg r3 add r3,#256 ldb rh3,rl3 clrb rl3 ld _u+48,r3 so i created the following C code out of it: u.u_count = (-u.u_segmts[NUSEGS-1].sg_limit+0x100)<<8; but this compiled to this ASM code: ldk r2,#0 ldb rl2,_u+1060 neg r2 add r2,#256 ldb rh2,rl2 clrb rl2 ld _u+48,r2 As you can see the copy of r2 to r3 and the further processing with r3 is missing here. I also thought "who the fuck would write such an C-code, the code must look different". but I did not found the solution what could have been written in the C code until I've talked today with a colleague of mine at work about ASM and my problems. He isn't familar with Z80(00)-ASM but he used to program ASM years ago with his C64. We took the ASM code and simulated it with values: _u+1060 contains 15 and is loaded to rl2 15 (0x000F / 00000000 00001111) this gets negated (2 complement formed) -15 (0xFFF1 / 11111111 11110001) to that, 256 gets added 241 (0x00F1 / 00000000 11110001) this is 8 bit rightshiftet 61696 (0xF100 / 11110001 00000000) the result gets loaded into _u+48 He then got the idea that all this could be aritmetical written as ((256 - 15)*256) because -15+256 is == 256-15 and rightshifts are done aritmetically by multiplying the value with 256. It could have also been done by having 256? - 256*x. This was great. With that information I wrote in C: u.u_count = (256-u.u_segmts[NUSEGS-1].sg_limit)<<8; And this generated the same ASM code as in the original code problem solved :) -- Oliver Lehmann http://www.pofo.de/ http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Thu Jun 5 14:19:56 2008 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 20:19:56 +0100 Subject: [personal] UK Computer Museum on TV In-Reply-To: <200806051701.m55H0aSG057572@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200806051701.m55H0aSG057572@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <2968D969-C86C-4C1C-AADE-5A89B5F32597@microspot.co.uk> > From: "Mike Hatch" > > TM4's were on the SDS9300, six of them, as I recall they were 10 > track but > something also says 9 track, after all it was 35 years ago !.. Thanks for that. Yes a long time ago. > There were also TM4's fitted to an ICL (I think a 1901) machine up > in London > but I only visited for service once (dirty contacts on the tape arm > switches). More likely a 1301. When the 1301s were being phased out they had to connect a pair of 7 track decks to the 1301s to transfer data to 1900. If they'd had 1900s with TM4s they would surely have chosen that route instead. I presume you mean the contacts with the dash-pot attached, not the switches at the end of arm's travel as these are fairly bullet proof. Now I've said that, they will of course fail next week! I was chatting to a friend who was an ICT field engineer yesterday and he said 'we must clean the vacuum chambers sometime'. I asked him how often they should be cleaned and he said at the start of every morning shift. This made us both grin because they have not been cleaned since about 1977 and they are still not causing any problems, we can read tape last written at that time too, though the writing logic 'runs away' for some reason. > There were also TM2 drives on a LEO3 #26 at Charles House in London > maintained by ICL for running gas bills. I gather quite a number of > the Leo > machines used TM drives. They were popular on 1301s too, though no TM2 equipped 1301s have survived. They had four times the throughput of the TM4 decks as they used 8 data bits per frame plus 8 cyclic redundancy check bits. The tape moved as 150 inches per second too compared with just 75 on the TM4s giving 90k digits per second compared to 22.5k on the TM4. Still 300 bits per inch on each track though, seems very low density by today's standard. Roger Holmes. From rogpugh at mac.com Thu Jun 5 14:24:56 2008 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 20:24:56 +0100 Subject: Corestore - the Big Move In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5 Jun 2008, at 17:51, Mike Ross wrote: > > Well, here's what happened: > > http://www.corestore.org/coremove.htm > Rover gas turbine.. don't see many of them!! From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jun 5 15:12:40 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 13:12:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Corestore - the Big Move In-Reply-To: <019101c8c72d$fc0152a0$1802a8c0@JIMM> References: <019101c8c72d$fc0152a0$1802a8c0@JIMM> Message-ID: <48575.64.62.206.10.1212696760.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Mike wrote: > Some days I wish I had taken up stamp collecting... Jim wrote: > Who says they're mutually exclusive? :) > I seem to collect computers, stamps, cameras, chess sets... Jim, it's extremely rude to encourage people that obviously already have one collecting problem to add more! :-) From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Jun 5 15:26:22 2008 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 13:26:22 -0700 Subject: powering up older machines - is it safe? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I don't disagree with the concern, but I'd be interested in hearing > estimates on the probability of this taking place. Has anyone had it > happen to them? I've seen it twice. Once on a rarely used machine on power-up, Once on a machine in continuous operation. I doubt its more likely to happen in one case (continuous use vs rarely used) than the other, it just doesn't go unnoticed in the continuous use case. Then again I've seen the mains side of a transformer short to +5 on (non-computer) machine, also in continuous use. For me, it always depends upon how easily I can replace the machine. On a 286 PC clone no unique hardware, just flip the switch. On a TRS-80 Model 3 you might want to turn it off if you smell smoke. On a Sol-20, pull out the Variac and monitor voltage and current. On a Compucolor II consider adding current and voltage limiting hardware. On an original Apple I, microscopic inspection and every very low voltage test you can think, take the old home-brew power supply and put it in a display case, buy a brand new current and voltage limited bench supply, and then recheck all the voltages and limit settings before connecting. The closer it gets to one-of-a-kind, the more careful you probably want to be. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jun 5 15:36:05 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 13:36:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: powering up older machines - is it safe? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <54999.64.62.206.10.1212698165.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Eric J Korpela wrote: > On a 286 PC clone no unique hardware, just flip the switch. On a > TRS-80 Model 3 you might want to turn it off if you smell smoke. So on a 286 PC clone, you _don't_ unplug it if you smell smoke? :-) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 4 21:43:40 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 03:43:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: Good Composite->VGA converters for classic computers (& video In-Reply-To: <48470F0A.4030308@oldskool.org> from "Jim Leonard" at Jun 4, 8 04:54:18 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > >> Just picked up a Wei-Ya ACV-011 CGA --> VGA converter board with the > >> intention of using it with a Commodore 128 (and possibly Amiga). It > >> doesn't have a true TTL input, but there is a C128 enthusiast out there > >> who published a small circuit to do the RGBI --> CGA interface. > > > > Err, what is a 'CGA Interface' if not a TTL-level RGBI one? > > Don't know, but remember how the 5153 has special circuitry that turns > color index #6 brown? I don't think any converter anywhere would handle Hmmm... If the input to the converter is a 4-bit TTL level thing, that as far as I can see no external circuit could correct the 'brwon problem'. After all, all 16 possible states of the 4 lines are used. However, other messages make be think that the input to the coverter is actually analogue RGB at TV rates. The sort of thing you get out of a (UK) DVD player, for example. In which case I can see the need for an interface to conenct it to a 4-bit RGBI connector (at the same scan rates). But I wouldn't call an analouge RGB inteface 'CGA'. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 4 21:46:38 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 03:46:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: powering up older machines - is it safe? In-Reply-To: <48471453.3040607@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Jun 4, 8 05:16:51 pm Message-ID: > To be honest, I enjoy the checking prior to use just as much as I do actually > using the system (I'm the same way with any vintage machinery - there's just > as much fun to be had in problem determination / fixing as there is in > actual use) I'm inclined to agree with you. Quite often, once I've got a machine working (it'll boot the OS, run standard applications, all peripherals work, etc) i tend to lose interest in it and move on to some other project (which might well be an add-on board or peripheral for said machine, of course). Tracking down a nastly logic fault is something I enjoy. I don't really enjoy programming that much, and if I do want to write a program, I suspect I've got better tools on this (ancient) PC than on most of my classics... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 4 21:59:13 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 03:59:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: powering up older machines - is it safe? In-Reply-To: <54999.64.62.206.10.1212698165.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Jun 5, 8 01:36:05 pm Message-ID: > > Eric J Korpela wrote: > > On a 286 PC clone no unique hardware, just flip the switch. On a > > TRS-80 Model 3 you might want to turn it off if you smell smoke. > > So on a 286 PC clone, you _don't_ unplug it if you smell smoke? :-) Actually, my Model 4 emitted clouds of smoke one time when I was using it. The machine carried on working fine, and I recognised the (unpleasant) smell of said smoke as being a tantalum capacitor going off, probably a supply decoupler. I actually finished what I was doing, then turned it off, pulled the case and replaced the defective capacitor (I was right..) on one of the disk drives. On the other hand, when smoke came out of one mf my RK)5sm and I could see flames throug the front door, I turned off the power at once. The fan motor insulation had broken down... -tony From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Jun 5 16:13:20 2008 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 14:13:20 -0700 Subject: powering up older machines - is it safe? In-Reply-To: <54999.64.62.206.10.1212698165.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <54999.64.62.206.10.1212698165.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 1:36 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Eric J Korpela wrote: >> On a 286 PC clone no unique hardware, just flip the switch. On a >> TRS-80 Model 3 you might want to turn it off if you smell smoke. > > So on a 286 PC clone, you _don't_ unplug it if you smell smoke? :-) > Well, I suppose eventually the flames might endanger surrounding machines... From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Jun 5 16:17:50 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 17:17:50 -0400 Subject: powering up older machines - is it safe? In-Reply-To: References: <54999.64.62.206.10.1212698165.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <200806051717.50342.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 05 June 2008 17:13, Eric J Korpela wrote: > On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 1:36 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > > Eric J Korpela wrote: > >> On a 286 PC clone no unique hardware, just flip the switch. On a > >> TRS-80 Model 3 you might want to turn it off if you smell smoke. > > > > So on a 286 PC clone, you _don't_ unplug it if you smell smoke? :-) > > Well, I suppose eventually the flames might endanger surrounding > machines... Is that like, a prior owner picked that as a place to keep their stash ("Nobody'll ever bother powering this up again...) and then forgot about it? :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Jun 5 16:30:34 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 22:30:34 +0100 Subject: powering up older machines - is it safe? In-Reply-To: <54999.64.62.206.10.1212698165.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <004601c8c753$64dae820$5b01a8c0@FLEXPC> Eric Smith wrote: > Eric J Korpela wrote: >> On a 286 PC clone no unique hardware, just flip the switch. On a >> TRS-80 Model 3 you might want to turn it off if you smell smoke. > > So on a 286 PC clone, you _don't_ unplug it if you smell smoke? :-) On a Pentium you have a can of petrol to hand to help it along ... Antonio No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG. Version: 7.5.524 / Virus Database: 269.24.6/1484 - Release Date: 04/06/2008 16:40 From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 5 16:53:13 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 14:53:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: powering up older machines - is it safe? In-Reply-To: References: <54999.64.62.206.10.1212698165.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20080605145244.M73468@shell.lmi.net> > So on a 286 PC clone, you _don't_ unplug it if you smell smoke? :-) and miss out on the video for youtube? From blstuart at bellsouth.net Thu Jun 5 17:47:34 2008 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 22:47:34 +0000 Subject: powering up older machines - is it safe? In-Reply-To: <200806051717.50342.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <54999.64.62.206.10.1212698165.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <200806051717.50342.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <060520082247.7550.48486D06000A058300001D7E22193100029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> From: "Roy J. Tellason" > On Thursday 05 June 2008 17:13, Eric J Korpela wrote: > > On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 1:36 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > > > Eric J Korpela wrote: > > >> On a 286 PC clone no unique hardware, just flip the switch. On a > > >> TRS-80 Model 3 you might want to turn it off if you smell smoke. > > > > > > So on a 286 PC clone, you _don't_ unplug it if you smell smoke? :-) > > > > Well, I suppose eventually the flames might endanger surrounding > > machines... > > Is that like, a prior owner picked that as a place to keep their stash > ("Nobody'll ever bother powering this up again...) and then forgot about it? If that's the smoke he smelled, he wouldn't care about the other machines. He'd be off looking for munchies... "Now where were those chips?" BLS From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jun 5 18:47:16 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 16:47:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: powering up older machines - is it safe? In-Reply-To: <060520082247.7550.48486D06000A058300001D7E22193100029B0A02D2089B9A019 C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> References: <54999.64.62.206.10.1212698165.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <200806051717.50342.rtellason@verizon.net> <060520082247.7550.48486D06000A058300001D7E22193100029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> Message-ID: <39779.64.62.206.10.1212709636.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Brian wrote: > If that's the smoke he smelled, he wouldn't care about the other > machines. He'd be off looking for munchies... "Now where were > those chips?" Mmmmm... NMOS chips... With just a hint of boron... From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Jun 5 19:22:14 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:22:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Atari 2600 AV mods Message-ID: A couple years ago there was talk about AV mods for the Atari 2600. Does anyone here have a Cybertech AV mod? How is it different from the standard CD4050 hack? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Jun 5 19:23:03 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:23:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MicroVax batteries Message-ID: <221376.2452.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> The batteries in my MicroVaxen need to be replaced. A couple of questions: What's the best way to clean up corrosion damage caused by these batteries? With Alkaline batteries, I usually use vinegar (since alkalines leak a base, not acid). What about NI-CD? What types of batteries can these be replaced with? I'm assuming that this is a NI-CD battery pack. I went to Radio Shack expecting to simply find a cordless phone battery that I could use to replace it - the pack appears to be nothing more than three AAA NI-CD cells in series. Unfortunately, the only sort of phone batteries they carry are either too big (AA's) or NIMH. I wouldn't imagine that it would work, but is it possible to use NIMH batteries to replace the original pack? I ended up buying a small pack at Target, it's a small, three cell (half or third AA, it appears), phone battery pack. NI-CD, 400mAh. But, you know, I'd like to know what my options are for the other MicroVaxen... Thanks! -Ian From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Jun 5 19:23:03 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:23:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MicroVax batteries Message-ID: <221376.2452.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> The batteries in my MicroVaxen need to be replaced. A couple of questions: What's the best way to clean up corrosion damage caused by these batteries? With Alkaline batteries, I usually use vinegar (since alkalines leak a base, not acid). What about NI-CD? What types of batteries can these be replaced with? I'm assuming that this is a NI-CD battery pack. I went to Radio Shack expecting to simply find a cordless phone battery that I could use to replace it - the pack appears to be nothing more than three AAA NI-CD cells in series. Unfortunately, the only sort of phone batteries they carry are either too big (AA's) or NIMH. I wouldn't imagine that it would work, but is it possible to use NIMH batteries to replace the original pack? I ended up buying a small pack at Target, it's a small, three cell (half or third AA, it appears), phone battery pack. NI-CD, 400mAh. But, you know, I'd like to know what my options are for the other MicroVaxen... Thanks! -Ian From sethm at loomcom.com Thu Jun 5 19:33:59 2008 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:33:59 -0700 Subject: (E)PROM, PAL, GAL, CPLD, etc. programming Message-ID: Hey folks, I'd like to get some advice on getting a general-purpose (E)PROM burner. I've never burned a PROM in my life, but as I get more into digital design and home-brewing logic, I'm finding myself wishing I had access to a burner. I am a helpless newbie on this front, so perhaps someone can show me the light. I'd ideally like to be able to dump and burn PROMs, EPROMs, and PALs of various flavors. Bonus points would be GAL and CPLD programming capability, but I don't know how common it is to find both of those in the same box. Is it? Or is programmable logic typically handled by a totally different device? Availability is important -- I'd prefer to find one I can buy soon rather than waiting for just the right one to show up on eBay. And yes, just to prove that this is more or less on topic: I have been given a box of early 80s EPROMs I would like to try to get dumps of! Thanks much, -Seth From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Jun 5 19:56:59 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 20:56:59 -0400 Subject: Atari 2600 AV mods In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200806052056.59950.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 05 June 2008 20:22, David Griffith wrote: > A couple years ago there was talk about AV mods for the Atari 2600. Does > anyone here have a Cybertech AV mod? How is it different from the > standard CD4050 hack? What's the standard CD4050 hack? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From db at db.net Thu Jun 5 20:03:47 2008 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 21:03:47 -0400 Subject: (E)PROM, PAL, GAL, CPLD, etc. programming In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080606010347.GA46774@night.db.net> On Thu, Jun 05, 2008 at 05:33:59PM -0700, Seth Morabito wrote: > Hey folks, > > I'd like to get some advice on getting a general-purpose (E)PROM > burner. I've never burned a PROM in my life, but as I get more into > digital design and home-brewing logic, I'm finding myself wishing I > had access to a burner. I am a helpless newbie on this front, so > perhaps someone can show me the light. Gosh those are easy to write with a SBC. If you had a KIM/AIM or even an Apple ][ lying about. The big commercial ones (e.g. dataio) are pretty pricey but can burn everything. http://www.atarimagazines.com/v4n8/EPROMBurner.html 1985! > I'd ideally like to be able to dump and burn PROMs, EPROMs, and PALs > of various flavors. Bonus points would be GAL and CPLD programming ... Shouldn't be hard to find a commercial one. > > And yes, just to prove that this is more or less on topic: I have > been given a box of early 80s EPROMs I would like to try to get dumps > of! I do hope the windows were well sealed, they self erase from uv especially from fluorescents. You may well have a lot of bitrot. - Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Jun 5 19:59:39 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 20:59:39 -0400 Subject: MicroVax batteries In-Reply-To: <221376.2452.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <221376.2452.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200806052059.39854.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 05 June 2008 20:23, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > The batteries in my MicroVaxen need to be replaced. A couple of questions: > > What's the best way to clean up corrosion damage caused by these batteries? > With Alkaline batteries, I usually use vinegar (since alkalines leak a > base, not acid). What about NI-CD? Those also use an alkali for an electrolyte, as I found out the hard way once. > What types of batteries can these be replaced with? I'm assuming that this > is a NI-CD battery pack. I went to Radio Shack expecting to simply find a > cordless phone battery that I could use to replace it - the pack appears to > be nothing more than three AAA NI-CD cells in series. Unfortunately, the > only sort of phone batteries they carry are either too big (AA's) or NIMH. A battery speclalty store would be able to help you easier, like batteries plus for example. What they don't stock they can order in and they have the setup to make up packs, or at least the couple of them I've been in. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jun 5 20:05:31 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 18:05:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: (E)PROM, PAL, GAL, CPLD, etc. programming In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <50979.64.62.206.10.1212714331.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Seth wrote: > I'd like to get some advice on getting a general-purpose (E)PROM > burner. [for EPROMs, PROMs, PALs, GALs, CPLDs] The "Swiss army knife" of device programmers would be the Data I/O Unisite, 2900, 3900, or 3980. Used ones show up on eBay, but usually without the software, and often the seller isn't able to test them. (Sellers often describe the status of the self-test indicator, but that's not really good enough.) You're back in the SF bay area, right? Email me off-list and we'll discuss some options. If you need those EPROMs read soon, I could lend you a programmer, or you could bring them by and I'll read them for you. Either way, that would let you worry about buying a programmer at leisure rather than rushing into it. Eric From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Jun 5 20:11:37 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 20:11:37 -0500 Subject: Atari 2600 AV mods In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48488EC9.50606@oldskool.org> David Griffith wrote: > A couple years ago there was talk about AV mods for the Atari 2600. Does > anyone here have a Cybertech AV mod? How is it different from the > standard CD4050 hack? The standard hack gets you composite; the Cybertech mod claims to give you true s-video output, although at first glance I don't see how that's possible. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Thu Jun 5 20:12:19 2008 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 21:12:19 -0400 Subject: MicroVax batteries In-Reply-To: <221376.2452.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <221376.2452.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <86A3089001A44141B76B882059E7E53B03EFE481@M31.equallogic.com> > The batteries in my MicroVaxen need to be replaced. A couple of questions: > What types of batteries can these be replaced with? I'm assuming that this is a NI-CD battery pack. I went to Radio Shack expecting to simply find a cordless phone battery that I could use to replace it - the pack appears to be nothing more than three AAA NI-CD cells in series. Unfortunately, the only sort of phone batteries they carry are either too big (AA's) or NIMH. I wouldn't imagine that it would work, but is it possible to use NIMH batteries to replace the original pack? Not likely. NiCd and NiMH have different charging procedures. NiCd cells aren't hard to find; Digikey or Jameco are possibilities. paul From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jun 5 20:20:33 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 18:20:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Atari 2600 AV mods In-Reply-To: <48488EC9.50606@oldskool.org> References: <48488EC9.50606@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <57044.64.62.206.10.1212715233.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Jim wrote: > The standard hack gets you composite; the Cybertech mod claims to give > you true s-video output, although at first glance I don't see how that's > possible. The TIA chip appears to provide separate luminance and chroma outputs, so it doesn't seem like it should be hard to produce S-video. However, I haven't studied it in any depth. Eric From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Jun 5 20:25:25 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 20:25:25 -0500 Subject: Good Composite->VGA converters for classic computers (& video games...) In-Reply-To: References: <4841BCBA.1070109@msu.edu> <4846FBD0.9000009@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <48489205.3000906@oldskool.org> Steven Hirsch wrote: > "Fotios' C=128-RGBI-to-VGA hack with IBM-CGA color fix for brown" THANK YOU for this reference! This is exactly what I have been looking for! (Assuming this will let me hook up IBM CGA output to a VGA monitor) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jun 5 20:29:24 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 18:29:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MicroVax batteries In-Reply-To: <86A3089001A44141B76B882059E7E53B03EFE481@M31.equallogic.com> References: <221376.2452.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <86A3089001A44141B76B882059E7E53B03EFE481@M31.equallogic.com> Message-ID: <52597.64.62.206.10.1212715764.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Paul wrote: > NiCd and NiMH have different charging procedures. For slow charging (C/10 or less), NiMH cells work fine as a replacement for NiCd cells. It's only for fast charging that there could be issues. I'm fairly sure the MicroVAX does slow charging. Eric From ragooman at comcast.net Thu Jun 5 20:41:42 2008 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 21:41:42 -0400 Subject: Atari 2600 AV mods In-Reply-To: <200806052056.59950.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200806052056.59950.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <484895D6.5040906@comcast.net> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Thursday 05 June 2008 20:22, David Griffith wrote: > >> A couple years ago there was talk about AV mods for the Atari 2600. Does >> anyone here have a Cybertech AV mod? How is it different from the >> standard CD4050 hack? >> > > What's the standard CD4050 hack? > Here's a nice writeup on the comparison http://www.cheeptech.com/2600mods/colorsat.html =Dan [ Pittsburgh --- http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 5 21:11:40 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 19:11:40 -0700 Subject: MicroVax batteries In-Reply-To: <200806060144.m561i2oN063996@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200806060144.m561i2oN063996@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <48483A6C.10505.1BD68D72@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 17:23:03 -0700 (PDT) > From: Mr Ian Primus > > The batteries in my MicroVaxen need to be replaced. A couple of > questions: > > What's the best way to clean up corrosion damage caused by these > batteries? With Alkaline batteries, I usually use vinegar (since alkalines > leak a base, not acid). What about NI-CD? They still use a strong base (potassium hydroxide), so vinegar is still a good idea. KOH is nasty--keep it off your skin and out of your eyes. Rinse well; follow up with methyl alcohol. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 5 21:01:06 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 19:01:06 -0700 Subject: C <-> ASM translation problem In-Reply-To: <200806060144.m561i2oN063996@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200806060144.m561i2oN063996@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <484837F2.14966.1BCCE1C6@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 20:02:22 +0200 > From: Oliver Lehmann I don't have any experience with your particular compiler, but from what you say on your web page, it makes me wonder if an additional temporary variable isn't involved. Something like: x = (caddr_t)(((long)uap->linkname)); x &= 0x7F00FFFF; u.u_dirp.l = x; Of course, the intermediate variable would have to be register- resident. Just a guess... Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Jun 5 21:43:08 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 22:43:08 -0400 Subject: Atari 2600 AV mods In-Reply-To: <484895D6.5040906@comcast.net> References: <200806052056.59950.rtellason@verizon.net> <484895D6.5040906@comcast.net> Message-ID: <200806052243.08976.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 05 June 2008 21:41, Dan Roganti wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > On Thursday 05 June 2008 20:22, David Griffith wrote: > >> A couple years ago there was talk about AV mods for the Atari 2600. > >> Does anyone here have a Cybertech AV mod? How is it different from the > >> standard CD4050 hack? > > > > What's the standard CD4050 hack? > > Here's a nice writeup on the comparison > http://www.cheeptech.com/2600mods/colorsat.html > > =Dan > > [ Pittsburgh --- http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] Ah. Once upon a time a long time ago I used to think that a vectorscope would be a nice thing to have. I can't quite remember why, any more. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From pdp11 at saccade.com Thu Jun 5 22:44:59 2008 From: pdp11 at saccade.com (J. Peterson) Date: Thu, 05 Jun 2008 20:44:59 -0700 Subject: Obsolete Technology Band In-Reply-To: <20080605145244.M73468@shell.lmi.net> References: <54999.64.62.206.10.1212698165.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <20080605145244.M73468@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200806060355.m563tpVx013998@keith.ezwind.net> Folks on this list will enjoy this post: http://www.hackaday.com/2008/06/05/obsolete-technology-band/ All they're missing the AM radio next to the S-100 bus... [Note the first video doesn't resemble music until about the 1:35 mark] Cheers, jp www.puzzlemation.com From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Jun 5 23:13:17 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 00:13:17 -0400 Subject: Corestore - the Big Move In-Reply-To: <019101c8c72d$fc0152a0$1802a8c0@JIMM> References: <019101c8c72d$fc0152a0$1802a8c0@JIMM> Message-ID: <4848B95D.2090806@gmail.com> Jim MacKenzie wrote: > Some days I wish I had taken up stamp collecting... > > === > Who says they're mutually exclusive? :) > > I seem to collect computers, stamps, cameras, chess sets... I collect dust. Peace... Sridhar From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jun 5 23:24:45 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 21:24:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Corestore - the Big Move In-Reply-To: <4848B95D.2090806@gmail.com> from Sridhar Ayengar at "Jun 6, 8 00:13:17 am" Message-ID: <200806060424.m564Oj0t019006@floodgap.com> > > > Some days I wish I had taken up stamp collecting... > > Who says they're mutually exclusive? :) > > I seem to collect computers, stamps, cameras, chess sets... > I collect dust. I collect navel lint. Kind of squishy tho. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The faster we go, the rounder we get. -- The Grateful Dead, on relativity -- From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Jun 5 23:25:32 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 00:25:32 -0400 Subject: Corestore - the Big Move In-Reply-To: <4848B95D.2090806@gmail.com> References: <019101c8c72d$fc0152a0$1802a8c0@JIMM> <4848B95D.2090806@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200806060025.34032.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 06 June 2008 00:13, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Jim MacKenzie wrote: > > Some days I wish I had taken up stamp collecting... > > > > === > > Who says they're mutually exclusive? :) > > > > I seem to collect computers, stamps, cameras, chess sets... > > I collect dust. > > Peace... Sridhar I generally move around a little too much for that, but the equipment here doesn't seem to have that advantage, unfortunately... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From josecvalle at gmail.com Thu Jun 5 07:59:31 2008 From: josecvalle at gmail.com (Jose carlos Valle) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 09:59:31 -0300 Subject: Australian Computer Museum In-Reply-To: <4846A256.7000300@gmail.com> References: <4846A256.7000300@gmail.com> Message-ID: The Museu do Computador have the same problem, Brazil . I left the building last november, and I am looking for a new place here in my city S?o Paulo but, nobody care about it.. like ACMS needs help! We have to leave the store we are using at Minto by 1 April and we have nowhere to go. We have supportive messages and recomendations about who to ask, but no actual offers so far. 2008/6/4 Jules Richardson : > > Does anyone know the fate of the Australian Computer Museum? Looking at > their website at http://www.acms.org.au it looks like they were in real > trouble a couple of months back. > > Does anyone know if they found alternative storage space for the collection > (and therefore that the website just hasn't been updated)? > > cheers > > Jules > > -- Jos? Carlos Valle ? Presidente curador www.museudocomputador.com.br Blog do curador: HTTP://museudocomputador.blogspot.com Tel office: 011 4666-7545 Skype Tel 3013-3946 - Cel: 011- 8609-7410 From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Jun 5 17:23:57 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 18:23:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Good Composite->VGA converters for classic computers (& video In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Jun 2008, Tony Duell wrote: > However, other messages make be think that the input to the coverter is > actually analogue RGB at TV rates. The sort of thing you get out of a > (UK) DVD player, for example. In which case I can see the need for an > interface to conenct it to a 4-bit RGBI connector (at the same scan > rates). That's essentially what I believe my converter expects for input. It has some lattitude for "funny" timing as well. > But I wouldn't call an analouge RGB inteface 'CGA'. I agree, it's a misnomer, but that's what Wei-Ya calls the unit I have. Steve -- From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Jun 5 18:18:22 2008 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 00:18:22 +0100 Subject: Corestore - the Big Move In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 5/6/08 17:51, "Mike Ross" wrote: > > Well, here's what happened: > > http://www.corestore.org/coremove.htm > > Some days I wish I had taken up stamp collecting... > > Thanks to all who volunteered to give a home to the Convex! I tried, at least it has a home to go to :) I don't envy you, Mike, just moving my own collection to Cambridge took 2 7.5t truckloads and there were no large format PDPs involved. I'd love that storage area you had though! I'd get my house and garage back :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From jlobocki at gmail.com Thu Jun 5 21:59:31 2008 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 21:59:31 -0500 Subject: Corestore - the Big Move In-Reply-To: <48575.64.62.206.10.1212696760.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <019101c8c72d$fc0152a0$1802a8c0@JIMM> <48575.64.62.206.10.1212696760.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: I agree with eric on that one, im running out of places to put stuff!!! On Thu, Jun 5, 2008 at 3:12 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Mike wrote: >> Some days I wish I had taken up stamp collecting... > > Jim wrote: >> Who says they're mutually exclusive? :) >> I seem to collect computers, stamps, cameras, chess sets... > > Jim, it's extremely rude to encourage people that obviously already > have one collecting problem to add more! :-) > > From dave at mynatt.biz Thu Jun 5 22:12:09 2008 From: dave at mynatt.biz (D. Mynatt) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 21:12:09 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/40 for sale Message-ID: <6C8BDAD25F3B47A893C6B5F8E4E6D2FF@compaq> Hi, I'm the program director for a non-profit in Colorado and I am looking for a PDP-11 that we could use to introduce students to the early IT beginnings. I am hoping you may still have a surplus PDP-11 that we could pick up and cart away. You ad on http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2008-February/091447.html is perfect for me, if it's still available. Dave Mynatt ===== http://sciencecenter.no-ip.org SID ID: S-0258 APRS UI-View KA0SWT LAT: 38'16.278" N LON: -104'40.537" W Alt: 4780ft DM78 From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Jun 6 01:07:46 2008 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 01:07:46 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Atari 2600 AV mods In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 5 Jun 2008, David Griffith wrote: > A couple years ago there was talk about AV mods for the Atari 2600. > Does anyone here have a Cybertech AV mod? How is it different from the > standard CD4050 hack? One of the best comparisons I found when I was originally looking at them was this: http://www.cheeptech.com/2600mods/2600mods.shtml As of right now I still haven't done either to one of my 2600s but I've been thinking about it again lately. From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Jun 6 01:51:06 2008 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 23:51:06 -0700 Subject: (E)PROM, PAL, GAL, CPLD, etc. programming In-Reply-To: <50979.64.62.206.10.1212714331.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <50979.64.62.206.10.1212714331.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <200806052351.06344.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Thursday 05 June 2008 18:05, Eric Smith wrote: > Seth wrote: > > I'd like to get some advice on getting a general-purpose (E)PROM > > burner. > > [for EPROMs, PROMs, PALs, GALs, CPLDs] > > The "Swiss army knife" of device programmers would be the Data I/O > Unisite, 2900, 3900, or 3980. Used ones show up on eBay, but usually > without the software, and often the seller isn't able to test them. > (Sellers often describe the status of the self-test indicator, but > that's not really good enough.) I'll second Eric's suggestions. I've got two 3980's and love 'em. I picked one up at an auction for $50 (with many plugins) and another for $200 in a private sale. As Erik said, be sure to get the software with the programmer. The cost from Data I/O is steep. Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From mike at brickfieldspark.org Fri Jun 6 04:27:08 2008 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 10:27:08 +0100 Subject: [personal] UK Computer Museum on TV References: <200806051701.m55H0aSG057572@dewey.classiccmp.org> <2968D969-C86C-4C1C-AADE-5A89B5F32597@microspot.co.uk> Message-ID: <002f01c8c7b7$7e763dc0$961ca8c0@mss.local> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roger Holmes" To: Sent: Thursday, June 05, 2008 8:19 PM Subject: Re: [personal] UK Computer Museum on TV > > I presume you mean the contacts with the dash-pot attached, not the > switches at the end of arm's travel as these are fairly bullet proof. Now > I've said that, they will of course fail next week! For sure !. Yes, not the limit switches. The Pyestock TM4's were serviced regularly so the switches rarely gave trouble, chambers cleaned weekly. The ICL TM4's were dreadfull, no spares, took quite a while to get it running. Other analog drives on site had to be cleaned daily. >> There were also TM2 drives on a LEO3 #26 at Charles House in London >> maintained by ICL for running gas bills. I gather quite a number of the >> Leo >> machines used TM drives. The Leo machines used to get tapes from other sites for processing. Quite regularly their drives seemed to be skewed as we had to "coax" the tape across the head with a cotton bud to get a good read, heven knows what it did to customers bills. Mike. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri Jun 6 07:40:23 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 05:40:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Corestore - the Big Move In-Reply-To: <4848B95D.2090806@gmail.com> Message-ID: <12349.50602.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > > Who says they're mutually exclusive? :) > > > > I seem to collect computers, stamps, cameras, chess > sets... > > I collect dust. The computers are just something to keep it on :) -Ian From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri Jun 6 07:40:51 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 05:40:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Corestore - the Big Move In-Reply-To: <4848B95D.2090806@gmail.com> Message-ID: <605188.26591.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > > Who says they're mutually exclusive? :) > > > > I seem to collect computers, stamps, cameras, chess > sets... > > I collect dust. The computers are just something to keep it on :) -Ian From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Jun 6 08:03:32 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 08:03:32 -0500 Subject: Corestore - the Big Move In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <484935A4.10805@gmail.com> Adrian Graham wrote: > I don't envy you, Mike, just moving my own collection to Cambridge took 2 > 7.5t truckloads and there were no large format PDPs involved. I'd love that > storage area you had though! I'd get my house and garage back :) A common misconception amongst collectors: that they can somehow free up space for other things... :-) From mross666 at hotmail.com Fri Jun 6 10:50:01 2008 From: mross666 at hotmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 15:50:01 +0000 Subject: with reluctance... pdp-10 for sale Message-ID: I've finally gone and done it: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150256074674 Don't really want to, but if a deep-pocket collector decides to bite, it's gone. Mike http://www.corestore.org _________________________________________________________________ Search that pays you back! Introducing Live Search cashback. http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=srchpaysyouback From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri Jun 6 11:13:16 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 09:13:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Corestore - the Big Move In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <771767.19722.qm@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Glad to hear things worked out well. While I would have loved to have the Convex system, I'm really glad you found it a good home. I understand why you'd want to have someone over there take it rather than having to schlep it all the way over to the US first :) And, good luck on your PDP-10 sale. Maybe Paul Allen will Buy It Now... I look forward to seeing the report of the unload, and your new computer room! Collecing large iron is a hard thing to do, and finding a place to set it all up is difficult. I'm currently looking to buy my own house, and "computer-able" space is the main criteria I'm looking for. I have a couple of storage units full of large computers (Vaxen, Primes, tape drives, disk drives, etc). At home, I have a walk-out basement that has become a computer room, but it's not really big enough. There's a couple of Vaxen, PDP-11's, a Data General and some Primes that live there, and it's pretty full. Good luck! -Ian From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jun 6 12:29:26 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 10:29:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Corestore - the Big Move In-Reply-To: References: <019101c8c72d$fc0152a0$1802a8c0@JIMM> <48575.64.62.206.10.1212696760.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20080606102836.O25391@shell.lmi.net> > Jim, it's extremely rude to encourage people that obviously already > have one collecting problem to add more! :-) Even if we think that we might be able to get them to take some of our stuff? From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jun 6 13:08:10 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 14:08:10 -0400 Subject: with reluctance... pdp-10 for sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48497D0A.4020206@gmail.com> Mike Ross wrote: > I've finally gone and done it: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150256074674 > > Don't really want to, but if a deep-pocket collector decides to bite, it's gone. This is one thing I'd be willing to probe the depths of my savings for. I put in a token first bid. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Jun 6 13:13:16 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 14:13:16 -0400 Subject: with reluctance... pdp-10 for sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48497E3C.6080703@gmail.com> Mike Ross wrote: > I've finally gone and done it: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150256074674 > > Don't really want to, but if a deep-pocket collector decides to bite, it's gone. By the way, do you have any high-res pictures? Peace... Sridhar From slawmaster at gmail.com Fri Jun 6 13:18:15 2008 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 14:18:15 -0400 Subject: with reluctance... pdp-10 for sale In-Reply-To: <48497D0A.4020206@gmail.com> References: <48497D0A.4020206@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7d3530220806061118q31051eefy6e4bfb6e6b4f8ee5@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 2:08 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Mike Ross wrote: >> >> I've finally gone and done it: >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150256074674 >> >> Don't really want to, but if a deep-pocket collector decides to bite, it's >> gone. > > This is one thing I'd be willing to probe the depths of my savings for. > > I put in a token first bid. > > Peace... Sridhar > Curse me for not trying to get a vintage computing club set up and funded at my university earlier ;) This would have been AWESOME for it. Hope somebody on this list is lucky enough to take it home! John -- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 5 21:57:24 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 03:57:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: MicroVax batteries In-Reply-To: <221376.2452.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> from "Mr Ian Primus" at Jun 5, 8 05:23:03 pm Message-ID: > > The batteries in my MicroVaxen need to be replaced. A couple of questions: > > What's the best way to clean up corrosion damage caused by these > batteries? With Alkaline batteries, I usually use vinegar (since > alkalines leak a base, not acid). What about NI-CD? The electrolyte in a NiCd cell is also alkaline (potassium hydroxide based, I think). So you use a (chemically) weak acid for clean-up. I normally used a solution of citric acid, it smells nicer than vinegar :-) > > What types of batteries can these be replaced with? I'm assuming that > this is a NI-CD battery pack. I went to Radio Shack expecting to simply > find a cordless phone battery that I could use to replace it - the pack > appears to be nothing more than three AAA NI-CD cells in series. Tht sounds very liekly. > Unfortunately, the only sort of phone batteries they carry are either > too big (AA's) or NIMH. I wouldn't imagine that it would work, but is it Do you not have space for the AA size cells? I didn't think MicroVAXen were that tightly packed... > possible to use NIMH batteries to replace the original pack? I ended up > buying a small pack at Target, it's a small, three cell (half or third > AA, it appears), phone battery pack. NI-CD, 400mAh. But, you know, I'd > like to know what my options are for the other MicroVaxen... I've not tried it myself, but I've heard of plenty of people using NiMH cells is old HP handheld calculators (designed to use NiCd packs) with no problems, keeping the original trickle-charging circuit. My guess is that an NiMH pack would be fine in the microVAX too. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 5 22:02:14 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 04:02:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: Corestore - the Big Move In-Reply-To: from "joe lobocki" at Jun 5, 8 09:59:31 pm Message-ID: > > I agree with eric on that one, im running out of places to put stuff!!! I ran outt of places to put machines years ago. Since then I've obtained another PERQ, a couple of PDPs, a couple of P800s, an Acorn Cambridge Workstation, numerous HP desktops, etc, etc, etc.... -tony From dr.emiel at xs4all.nl Fri Jun 6 16:49:01 2008 From: dr.emiel at xs4all.nl (Rik) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 23:49:01 +0200 Subject: MicroVax batteries In-Reply-To: References: <221376.2452.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> from "Mr Ian Primus"at Jun 5, 8 05:23:03 pm Message-ID: The use of NiMh's has a 'minor' drawback the internal powerloss is much larger then when you use NiCad's. The use of the pack is memory backup for some setup/boot settings. The uVax runs very well without the batteries the only drawback is you have to do the setup at every new powerup.... For nowmal operation you do not need the batteries. Rik -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Tony Duell Verzonden: vrijdag 6 juni 2008 4:57 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: Re: MicroVax batteries > > The batteries in my MicroVaxen need to be replaced. A couple of questions: > > What's the best way to clean up corrosion damage caused by these > batteries? With Alkaline batteries, I usually use vinegar (since > alkalines leak a base, not acid). What about NI-CD? The electrolyte in a NiCd cell is also alkaline (potassium hydroxide based, I think). So you use a (chemically) weak acid for clean-up. I normally used a solution of citric acid, it smells nicer than vinegar :-) > > What types of batteries can these be replaced with? I'm assuming that > this is a NI-CD battery pack. I went to Radio Shack expecting to > simply find a cordless phone battery that I could use to replace it - > the pack appears to be nothing more than three AAA NI-CD cells in series. Tht sounds very liekly. > Unfortunately, the only sort of phone batteries they carry are either > too big (AA's) or NIMH. I wouldn't imagine that it would work, but is > it Do you not have space for the AA size cells? I didn't think MicroVAXen were that tightly packed... > possible to use NIMH batteries to replace the original pack? I ended up > buying a small pack at Target, it's a small, three cell (half or third > AA, it appears), phone battery pack. NI-CD, 400mAh. But, you know, I'd > like to know what my options are for the other MicroVaxen... I've not tried it myself, but I've heard of plenty of people using NiMH cells is old HP handheld calculators (designed to use NiCd packs) with no problems, keeping the original trickle-charging circuit. My guess is that an NiMH pack would be fine in the microVAX too. -tony From dr.emiel at xs4all.nl Fri Jun 6 16:51:16 2008 From: dr.emiel at xs4all.nl (Rik) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 23:51:16 +0200 Subject: Corestore - the Big Move In-Reply-To: References: from"joe lobocki" at Jun 5, 8 09:59:31 pm Message-ID: I'm married and that realy reduces storage space. I'm not allowed to place computers in the bedroom living etc.. ;-) Rik -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Tony Duell Verzonden: vrijdag 6 juni 2008 5:02 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: Re: Corestore - the Big Move > > I agree with eric on that one, im running out of places to put stuff!!! I ran outt of places to put machines years ago. Since then I've obtained another PERQ, a couple of PDPs, a couple of P800s, an Acorn Cambridge Workstation, numerous HP desktops, etc, etc, etc.... -tony From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Jun 6 19:10:13 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 19:10:13 -0500 Subject: with reluctance... pdp-10 for sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4849D1E5.9070306@gmail.com> Mike Ross wrote: > I've finally gone and done it: Is that the last remaining one in the UK? From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Jun 6 19:11:40 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 19:11:40 -0500 Subject: Corestore - the Big Move In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4849D23C.5090500@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> I agree with eric on that one, im running out of places to put stuff!!! > > I ran outt of places to put machines years ago. Since then I've obtained > another PERQ, a couple of PDPs, a couple of P800s, an Acorn Cambridge > Workstation, numerous HP desktops, etc, etc, etc.... If you collect a mixture of sizes, sometimes there's room to store the smaller machines inside the bigger ones. ;) From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Jun 6 23:41:17 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 21:41:17 -0700 Subject: MicroVax batteries In-Reply-To: References: <221376.2452.qm@web52705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> from Message-ID: > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk ---snip--- > > I've not tried it myself, but I've heard of plenty of people using NiMH > cells is old HP handheld calculators (designed to use NiCd packs) with no > problems, keeping the original trickle-charging circuit. My guess is that > an NiMH pack would be fine in the microVAX too. > Hi I still think it is easier to find NiCads for portable phones. They may not be the same form factor but usuallt come in three cell stacks with longer leads. I like to place them in a bagie in case they leak so the leads come in handy. The most common I've seen is three cells in a triangle pattern. These work fine. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Now you can invite friends from Facebook and other groups to join you on Windows Live? Messenger. Add now. https://www.invite2messenger.net/im/?source=TXT_EML_WLH_AddNow_Now From harten at injectstar.de Fri Jun 6 04:11:04 2008 From: harten at injectstar.de (Harten) Date: Fri, 06 Jun 2008 10:11:04 +0100 Subject: NCR 7500 Series: Help needed In-Reply-To: <93713.52074.qm@web32801.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <93713.52074.qm@web32801.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In message <93713.52074.qm at web32801.mail.mud.yahoo.com> you wrote: > Hi Axel - you may want to reach out to the http://www.thecorememory.com/ a web site dedicate to NCR Systems > > Russ Hi Russ! I have already checked out this site and contacted the "webmaster" but he could not help me with this type of machine. He was sorry about that - no further documentation or software. Axel. > --- On Wed, 6/4/08, Harten <harten at injectstar.de> wrote: > From: Harten <harten at injectstar.de> > Subject: NCR 7500 Series: Help needed > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Date: Wednesday, June 4, 2008, 5:18 AM > > Hi! > Now that i have worked several months on the repair of a NCR 7500 System, > i'm able to power it up and get some screen messages. > But without a System-Tape to boot from nothing can be done. > The tapes that came with the NCR are "NOT PROGRAM TAPE". > Maybe the tapes are faulty too. > > > Has anybody documentation and/or software for this machine? > > Axel Harten > > -- > > > > -- From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Fri Jun 6 15:59:22 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 2008 13:59:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: (E)PROM, PAL, GAL, CPLD, etc. programming In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <875109.56134.qm@web65501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> I love to insert my worthless 2 cents. Do a search on Amazon for "eprom experimenter's". The first on the list is a book I myself own. It describes the construction of some extremely rudimentary burners (dubbed the "bit banger", and I think the "bit banger Mark II" and such). I'm not sure how big an eprom you can burn with any of those it describes, but it's probably worth a look @ 1.65$. The next book on the list seems interesting, though I have no experience with it. It showed up on the list, so I would assume there's an eprom programmer therein, but you should check before purchasing it. I should think this group could come up with an official project to fulfill the needs of the numerous passer-bys... --- Seth Morabito wrote: > Hey folks, > > I'd like to get some advice on getting a > general-purpose (E)PROM > burner. I've never burned a PROM in my life, but as > I get more into > digital design and home-brewing logic, I'm finding > myself wishing I > had access to a burner. I am a helpless newbie on > this front, so > perhaps someone can show me the light. > > I'd ideally like to be able to dump and burn PROMs, > EPROMs, and PALs > of various flavors. Bonus points would be GAL and > CPLD programming > capability, but I don't know how common it is to > find both of those in > the same box. Is it? Or is programmable logic > typically handled by a > totally different device? > > Availability is important -- I'd prefer to find one > I can buy soon > rather than waiting for just the right one to show > up on eBay. > > And yes, just to prove that this is more or less on > topic: I have > been given a box of early 80s EPROMs I would like to > try to get dumps > of! > > Thanks much, > > -Seth > From lehmann at ans-netz.de Sat Jun 7 03:25:23 2008 From: lehmann at ans-netz.de (Oliver Lehmann) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 10:25:23 +0200 Subject: C <-> ASM translation problem In-Reply-To: <484837F2.14966.1BCCE1C6@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200806060144.m561i2oN063996@dewey.classiccmp.org> <484837F2.14966.1BCCE1C6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20080607102523.1e2bf1f5.lehmann@ans-netz.de> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 20:02:22 +0200 > > From: Oliver Lehmann > > I don't have any experience with your particular compiler, but from > what you say on your web page, it makes me wonder if an additional > temporary variable isn't involved. > > Something like: > > x = (caddr_t)(((long)uap->linkname)); > x &= 0x7F00FFFF; > u.u_dirp.l = x; > > Of course, the intermediate variable would have to be register- > resident. > > Just a guess... x would be then rr8 or so - handing registers out to register-class-variables starts with the highest register available for this compiler. -- Oliver Lehmann http://www.pofo.de/ http://wishlist.ans-netz.de/ From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sat Jun 7 07:20:41 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 08:20:41 -0400 Subject: Looking for 1Mx8 EPROMs (27C080 or 27C801) Message-ID: <001501c8c898$e7331d10$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Hi, I am searching for some used 1Mx8 32 pin DIP UV EPROMs like 27C080 or 27C801. If anyone can help out or knows a low cost supplier of 1Mx8 EPROMs, I would much appreciate it. THANK YOU IN ADVANCE FOR ANY HELP! Andrew Lynch From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sat Jun 7 07:51:36 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 08:51:36 -0400 Subject: (E)PROM, PAL, GAL, CPLD, etc. programming Message-ID: <009101c8c89d$38fa2f40$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> (E)PROM, PAL, GAL, CPLD, etc. programming Seth Morabito sethm at loomcom.com Thu Jun 5 19:33:59 CDT 2008 * Previous message: MicroVax batteries * Next message: (E)PROM, PAL, GAL, CPLD, etc. programming * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] _____ Hey folks, I'd like to get some advice on getting a general-purpose (E)PROM burner. I've never burned a PROM in my life, but as I get more into digital design and home-brewing logic, I'm finding myself wishing I had access to a burner. I am a helpless newbie on this front, so perhaps someone can show me the light. I'd ideally like to be able to dump and burn PROMs, EPROMs, and PALs of various flavors. Bonus points would be GAL and CPLD programming capability, but I don't know how common it is to find both of those in the same box. Is it? Or is programmable logic typically handled by a totally different device? Availability is important -- I'd prefer to find one I can buy soon rather than waiting for just the right one to show up on eBay. And yes, just to prove that this is more or less on topic: I have been given a box of early 80s EPROMs I would like to try to get dumps of! Thanks much, -Seth _____ * Previous message: MicroVax batteries * Next message: (E)PROM, PAL, GAL, CPLD, etc. programming * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] _____ More information about the cctalk mailing list _____ [apologies in advance for HTML format email but this message contains links] Hi Seth, As you can probably tell from the responses so far your choice in EPROM programmers is a highly personal one. Certainly the Data IO is a nice programmer. I have a Data IO 29B and use it frequently for older EPROMs like 2708s and such. There probably isn't the perfect EPROM programmer that does everything for everybody. I have managed to get several for various needs. For very low cost but limited in that it can only program fairly recent EPROM, Flash, EEPROM, SRAM, etc, I would go with an eBay special Willem programmer. At $20 plus shipping they are hard to beat and are good for the vast bulk of requirements. They do not do GALs, PALs, CPLDs, but do PICs and AVRs. http://search.ebay.com/willem-programmer_W0QQdfspZ32QQfromZR40QQfsooZ1QQfsop Z34QQsbrsrtZd If you need GALs, PALs, CPLDs as well and can spend a little more go with the EasyPro 90B or Top 2007 http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?sofocus=bs &sbrftog=1&from=R40&satitle=easypro+90B&sacat=-1%26catref%3DC6&sargn=-1%26sa slc%3D2&sadis=200&fpos=45429&sabfmts=1&ftrt=1&ftrv=1&saprclo=&saprchi=&fsop= 34%26fsoo%3D1&coaction=compare&copagenum=1&coentrypage=search http://search.ebay.com/top2007_W0QQcatrefZC6QQdfspZ32QQfromZR40QQfsooZ1QQfso pZ34QQftrtZ1QQftrvZ1QQsabfmtsZ1QQsacatZQ2d1QQsbrsrtZd You can shop around for various models online but here is a good place to comparison shop. The prices aren't too bad either and pretty convenient: http://www.mcumall.com/comersus/store/LeftStart.asp?idCategory=27 If all you want to do is get started with EPROM programming and maybe read some old EPROMs, I would just get the Willem and use it until you determine what you really want and need. My guess is the Willem will do practically everything you'll need until you get some specialized requirements like 2708s/1702s/GALs/PALs etc. Thanks and good luck! Andrew Lynch PS, When buying an older EPROM programmer, be sure to check the socket size. Some older programmers only accept up to 28 pin devices. Many newer DIP memories are 32 or 42 pin chips and even larger. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jun 7 12:30:24 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 10:30:24 -0700 Subject: MicroVax batteries In-Reply-To: <200806071700.m57H0cA4001171@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200806071700.m57H0cA4001171@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <484A6340.10400.244605EF@cclist.sydex.com> Time again for a stupid question. Why replace the original? I hate the idea of batteries inside equipment where the electrolyte goo can leak all over sensitive components. If I had your MicroVAX, I'd get a bunch of primary cells in a battery holder and place them outside of the case, so the goo will leak out onto the floor. A diode in series with the battery pack should disable the charging circuit and drop the pack's voltage to near-optimal. (3x1.2 NiCD = 3.6v; 3x1.5 primary = 4.5v - 0.7v for the series diode = 3.8v; pretty close). If the battery's function is to keep the clock and some RAM alive, 3 "D" cells will probably last a year or two. Make them Lithium-iron cells and you'll probably get 10 years of service. Cheers, Chuck From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Jun 7 12:40:05 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 13:40:05 -0400 Subject: MicroVax batteries In-Reply-To: <484A6340.10400.244605EF@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200806071700.m57H0cA4001171@dewey.classiccmp.org> <484A6340.10400.244605EF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200806071340.05151.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Saturday 07 June 2008, Chuck Guzis wrote: > A diode in series with the battery pack should disable the charging > circuit and drop the pack's voltage to near-optimal. (3x1.2 NiCD = > 3.6v; 3x1.5 primary = 4.5v - 0.7v for the series diode = 3.8v; pretty > close). If the battery's function is to keep the clock and some RAM > alive, 3 "D" cells will probably last a year or two. Make them > Lithium-iron cells and you'll probably get 10 years of service. Another option that I've used before (especially if you don't intend to leave the machine powered off for a long time) is to use one of the 0.1F or greater 5V electrolytic caps that are meant for a "memory backup" application. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Jun 7 13:22:24 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 11:22:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for 1Mx8 EPROMs (27C080 or 27C801) In-Reply-To: <001501c8c898$e7331d10$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> References: <001501c8c898$e7331d10$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <41442.71.139.37.220.1212862944.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Andrew wrote: > If anyone can help out or knows a low cost supplier of 1Mx8 EPROMs, I They're not at all hard to find, e.g., http://www.unicornelectronics.com/IC/EPROM.html From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sat Jun 7 14:13:57 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 15:13:57 -0400 Subject: Looking for 1Mx8 EPROMs (27C080 or 27C801) Message-ID: <000501c8c8d2$a2d785e0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Looking for 1Mx8 EPROMs (27C080 or 27C801) Eric Smith eric at brouhaha.com Sat Jun 7 13:22:24 CDT 2008 * Previous message: Looking for 1Mx8 EPROMs (27C080 or 27C801) * Next message: (E)PROM, PAL, GAL, CPLD, etc. programming * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] ________________________________ Andrew wrote: > If anyone can help out or knows a low cost supplier of 1Mx8 EPROMs, I They're not at all hard to find, e.g., http://www.unicornelectronics.com/IC/EPROM.html -----REPLY----- Hi Eric, Thanks for the reply! Yes, finding new 1Mx8 EPROMs is not difficult but that isn't what I am asking about. They only cost about $10 new and are an excellent value, IMO. However, I am trying to find some low cost *used* EPROM parts to help out some homebrew SBC builders. The N8VEM SBC homebrew computer I designed uses the 27C080 or 27C801 for its boot device/block device/ROM drive. I'd like to keep the costs as low as possible and am trying to keep the EPROM at or below $5 each. OTPs are an option but they are less desireable than the reuseable parts with UV windows. As it turns out, most of the people requesting the PCB for building their own homebrew computer are also requesting the EPROM. It rather surprised me as I thought more people would have their own EPROM programmers and erasers. I have a limited quantity of the 1Mx8 EPROMs on hand but not very many. At the rate they are going out with the PCBs, I will exhaust my stock quickly -- long before I run out of PCBs. In retrospect, that is probably bad planning on my part this is an amateur project and I am not a professional businessman. I found a few more 1Mx8 EPROMs on eBay but that doesn't really solve the problem. What I need is the 1Mx8 EPROM equivalent to this website: http://epromman.com/ I have purchased bulk used EPROMs from "Mr. EPROMMAN" before and they are an excellent value. Unfortunately, he doesn't carry the 1Mx8 parts. :-/ Thanks in advance if anyone can help. Andrew Lynch From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 6 21:39:09 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 03:39:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: Corestore - the Big Move In-Reply-To: from "Rik" at Jun 6, 8 11:51:16 pm Message-ID: > > I'm married and that realy reduces storage space. Rememeber that it's much easier to find a good wife than a good classic computer :-) > I'm not allowed to place computers in the bedroom living etc.. ;-) Can't you disguise them as something else? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 6 21:56:42 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 03:56:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: MicroVax batteries In-Reply-To: <484A6340.10400.244605EF@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Jun 7, 8 10:30:24 am Message-ID: > > Time again for a stupid question. Why replace the original? > > I hate the idea of batteries inside equipment where the electrolyte > goo can leak all over sensitive components. If I had your MicroVAX, > I'd get a bunch of primary cells in a battery holder and place them > outside of the case, so the goo will leak out onto the floor. > > A diode in series with the battery pack should disable the charging > circuit and drop the pack's voltage to near-optimal. (3x1.2 NiCD = > 3.6v; 3x1.5 primary = 4.5v - 0.7v for the series diode = 3.8v; pretty > close). If the battery's function is to keep the clock and some RAM > alive, 3 "D" cells will probably last a year or two. Make them > Lithium-iron cells and you'll probably get 10 years of service. FWIW. the CMOS RAM/clock battery of this PC is not the (expnsive, hard to find) lithium thing that IBM used, but 4 AA alkaline primary cells in a holder with a couple of diodes in series. They last about 5 years, and they're trivial to obtain when I do need to replace them. However, a word of warning to anyone doing this. The series diode is, of course, essential to prevent any attempt to charge the primary cells. But a few machines -- the Torch XXX springs to mind, but thera are others -- use the NiCd as a crude shunt regulator to limit the voltage applied to the RTC/RAM chip. The NiCd is charged from, say, a 12V supply line, and if it's open-circuit, or missing (or of course replaced by primary cells with a series diode), the votlage applied to that chip will be essentially 12V, which will almost certainly ruin it. A Zener diode connected across the oriignal battery terminals (of a hight voltage than the primary cell pack, obviously, but low enough to limit the voltage when the machine is turned on) is a suitable hack for this. IIRC, My XXX has a 5.1V zener soldered across the original NiCd battery connections, and 3 AA primary cells in series with a Shottky diode as the backup battery. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 6 21:50:31 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 03:50:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: Corestore - the Big Move In-Reply-To: <4849D23C.5090500@gmail.com> from "Jules Richardson" at Jun 6, 8 07:11:40 pm Message-ID: > If you collect a mixture of sizes, sometimes there's room to store the smaller > machines inside the bigger ones. Ah, so that's where I left a couple of HP41s -- inside a Unibus expansion box :-) Or : If you can lose your screwdriver inside it, it's a micro If you can lose your 'scope inside it, it's a mini If you an lose yourself inside it, it's a mainframe. -tony From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jun 7 16:15:04 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 14:15:04 -0700 Subject: Looking for 1Mx8 EPROMs (27C080 or 27C801) Message-ID: <484AFA58.6060601@bitsavers.org> > I'd like to keep the costs as low as possible and am trying to keep the > EPROM at or below $5 each. How much of the megabyte of space have you ACTUALLY used? A meg of EPROM seems insane to me for a low-cost SBC. From trixter at oldskool.org Sat Jun 7 16:16:57 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 16:16:57 -0500 Subject: Corestore - the Big Move In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <484AFAC9.1090001@oldskool.org> Tony Duell wrote: >> I'm married and that really reduces storage space. > > Remember that it's much easier to find a good wife than a good classic > computer :-) Oh, I don't know about that -- I have a wife that tolerates my classic computers, and I think the rarity of *that* combination is so unfathomable that it threatens to implode the very fabric of space and time. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sat Jun 7 17:15:01 2008 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 18:15:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Corestore - the Big Move In-Reply-To: <484AFAC9.1090001@oldskool.org> References: <484AFAC9.1090001@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 7 Jun 2008, Jim Leonard wrote: >> Remember that it's much easier to find a good wife than a good classic >> computer :-) > > Oh, I don't know about that -- I have a wife that tolerates my classic > computers, and I think the rarity of *that* combination is so unfathomable > that it threatens to implode the very fabric of space and time. My wife tells me I can bring home LMOs (Large Metal Objects) as long as they fit in the computer room, my garage or the shop. I was granted a special dispensation to put my 129 keypunch in the music studio. :-) Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Jun 7 17:39:20 2008 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 15:39:20 -0700 Subject: Looking for 1Mx8 EPROMs (27C080 or 27C801) In-Reply-To: <000501c8c8d2$a2d785e0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> References: <000501c8c8d2$a2d785e0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90806071539y48658870kbe7f5615b8135fad@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 12:13 PM, Andrew Lynch wrote: > The N8VEM SBC homebrew computer I designed uses the 27C080 or 27C801 for its > boot device/block device/ROM drive. > > I'd like to keep the costs as low as possible and am trying to keep the > EPROM at or below $5 each. Digi-Key lists the M27C801-100F1 @ $7.12 each for q >= 10. IC EPROM 8MBIT UV 100NS 32-FDIP That's not too far away from $5 ... From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Jun 7 17:47:33 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 15:47:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Corestore - the Big Move In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Jun 7, 8 03:39:09 am" Message-ID: <200806072247.m57MlXnx006010@floodgap.com> > > I'm married and that realy reduces storage space. > > Rememeber that it's much easier to find a good wife than a good classic > computer :-) Being unmarried means I get to put my server rack in the dining room. That's better than sex. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- People are weird. -- Law & Order SVU --------------------------------------- From ragooman at comcast.net Sat Jun 7 18:46:53 2008 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 19:46:53 -0400 Subject: Looking for 1Mx8 EPROMs (27C080 or 27C801) In-Reply-To: <001501c8c898$e7331d10$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> References: <001501c8c898$e7331d10$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <484B1DED.6070102@comcast.net> Andrew, eBay is usually the place to find used eproms here's one #330229142491 lot of 11pcs @ $47.95 'Buy it now' there's 4 lots left That's about $5 each *after* shipping =Dan [ RFK ] [ Pittsburgh --- http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] Andrew Lynch wrote: > Hi, > > I am searching for some used 1Mx8 32 pin DIP UV EPROMs like 27C080 or > 27C801. > > If anyone can help out or knows a low cost supplier of 1Mx8 EPROMs, I would > much appreciate it. > > THANK YOU IN ADVANCE FOR ANY HELP! > > Andrew Lynch > > > > From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sat Jun 7 21:13:42 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 22:13:42 -0400 Subject: Looking for 1Mx8 EPROMs (27C080 or 27C801) Message-ID: <00be01c8c90d$46883ab0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Andrew, eBay is usually the place to find used eproms here's one #330229142491 lot of 11pcs @ $47.95 'Buy it now' there's 4 lots left That's about $5 each *after* shipping =Dan [ RFK ] [ Pittsburgh --- http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] Andrew Lynch wrote: > Hi, > > I am searching for some used 1Mx8 32 pin DIP UV EPROMs like 27C080 or > 27C801. > > If anyone can help out or knows a low cost supplier of 1Mx8 EPROMs, I would > much appreciate it. > > THANK YOU IN ADVANCE FOR ANY HELP! > > Andrew Lynch > > > > -----REPLY----- Hi Dan, Thanks! Yes, I found those on eBay and bought some. They should be enough so I can finish this round of PCBs without running out of EPROMs. I checked with the helpful people at Mr. EPROMMAN and I think I may be able to substitute a 27C4001 for the 27C801. They are only half the size but they are available used, inexpensive, and in quantity. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sat Jun 7 21:13:42 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 22:13:42 -0400 Subject: Looking for 1Mx8 EPROMs (27C080 or 27C801) Message-ID: <00c501c8c90d$46e54ed0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Looking for 1Mx8 EPROMs (27C080 or 27C801) Al Kossow aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jun 7 16:15:04 CDT 2008 * Previous message: Looking for 1Mx8 EPROMs (27C080 or 27C801) * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] ________________________________ > I'd like to keep the costs as low as possible and am trying to keep the > EPROM at or below $5 each. How much of the megabyte of space have you ACTUALLY used? A meg of EPROM seems insane to me for a low-cost SBC. ________________________________ * Previous message: Looking for 1Mx8 EPROMs (27C080 or 27C801) * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] ________________________________ More information about the cctalk mailing list -----REPLY----- Hi Al, Insane is such a harsh word... :-) I consider it a slight modern adaptation to a Z80 SBC designed in the classic vintage style. Of the 1MB EPROM, the current SBC uses a little over 128K. It includes the boot loader, RAM monitor, CP/M boot image, the standard transient CP/M commands, the VDE full screen editor, BBC basic, and a smattering of small utilities like the RTC, XMODEM5, and start-the-RAM-monitor-from-CP/M. The rest of the EPROM is reserved for user expansion in the various CP/M USER spaces. The SBC really only needs probably 4K or so to boot the RAM monitor but the rest of the ROM is used as CP/M block devices (32K A: and 992K F: drives). There is also a 448K RAM block device for CP/M drive B: for temporary files in addition to the full 64K main memory for the OS and RAM monitor. Memory block devices allow the SBC to have a usable and reliable OS for relatively easy user expansion without the hassle and reliability issues of real disk devices. Real disk drives are supported (IDE and floppy) on a Disk IO board I built on the prototype. I plan to make a PCB for later on. Disks are good things but I made them an option rather than a requirement to keep it simple. Believe me, a 1MB EPROM block device is *MUCH* less expensive than adding even the least expensive floppy drive controller and even IDE. The ROM control circuitry is there regardless of size and the cost difference between a 27C64 and a 27C801 is minimal in the overall cost. The benefits of reliable storage tremendously outweighs the minor extra cost, IMO. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jun 7 22:00:12 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 20:00:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Corestore - the Big Move In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080607195809.F90570@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 7 Jun 2008, Tony Duell wrote: > If you can lose your screwdriver inside it, it's a micro > > If you can lose your 'scope inside it, it's a mini > > If you an lose yourself inside it, it's a mainframe. . . . and, if you lose a cask of Amontillado or your wife in it, . . . From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jun 7 22:07:57 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 20:07:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Corestore - the Big Move In-Reply-To: <484AFAC9.1090001@oldskool.org> References: <484AFAC9.1090001@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20080607200652.C90570@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 7 Jun 2008, Jim Leonard wrote: > Oh, I don't know about that -- I have a wife that tolerates my classic > computers, and I think the rarity of *that* combination is so > unfathomable that it threatens to implode the very fabric of space and time. Never mind my previous post. Does she have a sister? From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Jun 5 17:57:29 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:57:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: invading varmints was Re: powering up older machines - is it safe? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <372711.85882.qm@web65510.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> I arguably my first vintage computer invaded by apparently teeny tiny critters once! I had the box, a TI PC, stuck in my parked van for a winter anyhow. I fired it up one day, and nothing happened, and the fan would only budge intermittently. I opened it up and *something* doo doo doo doo, tore up all sort of paper and insulation to make a really suave pad! Thing is the opening were pretty small. I have trouble thinking it was done by insects, but I cannot imagine a rodent fitting through any of those openings. It was skeery! --- schwepes at moog.netaxs.com wrote: > I've had the issue twice. The first time was a > Heathkit stereo where > a bad capacitor killed the transformer and the > second one was an Acer > 286 that had a mouse problem, biological kind. > bs > > > On Wed, 4 Jun 2008, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > I can understand worrying about something that's > not been used for > > > a few years, but if you check everything that's > not been used for > > > just a few months, when do you have time to > actually _do_ anything? > > > > Well, if I am using a machine every day, I don't > check it every time > > (there's no point, the PSU could fail in the time > between checking it and > > reconnectin it to the logic :-)). But if I get a > machine out that I've > > not used recently, then, yes, I do check it. > > > > It doesn't take me long. I've probably done it > before, so I know what to > > unplug, where to connect the dummy load (if > needed) and the meter, and so > > on. In come cases, I've built up test units, in > which case it takes even > > less time. > > > > And 10 minutes, or so, spent checking the PSU is > easily a lot less than > > the time it would take me to sort out the damage > caused by a > > malfunctioning PSU. > > > > -tony > > > > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sat Jun 7 18:00:32 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 19:00:32 -0400 Subject: Looking for 1Mx8 EPROMs (27C080 or 27C801) Message-ID: <0K24005WW7W1N5UR@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Looking for 1Mx8 EPROMs (27C080 or 27C801) > From: Al Kossow > Date: Sat, 07 Jun 2008 14:15:04 -0700 > To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org > > > I'd like to keep the costs as low as possible and am trying to keep the > > EPROM at or below $5 each. > >How much of the megabyte of space have you ACTUALLY used? > >A meg of EPROM seems insane to me for a low-cost SBC. > One application is a CP/M romdisk, multiple program loader. Allison From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Jun 8 01:31:01 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 23:31:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Corestore - the Big Move In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <38806.71.139.37.220.1212906661.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Tony wrote: > If you can lose your screwdriver inside it, it's a micro > If you can lose your 'scope inside it, it's a mini > If you an lose yourself inside it, it's a mainframe. That seems like a pretty good taxonomy, though I'd argue that it would need at least one more category to cover the SAGE. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Jun 8 01:33:47 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 23:33:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for 1Mx8 EPROMs (27C080 or 27C801) In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90806071539y48658870kbe7f5615b8135fad@mail.gmail.com> References: <000501c8c8d2$a2d785e0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> <1e1fc3e90806071539y48658870kbe7f5615b8135fad@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <51264.71.139.37.220.1212906827.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Glen wrote: > Digi-Key lists the M27C801-100F1 @ $7.12 each for q >= 10. > IC EPROM 8MBIT UV 100NS 32-FDIP > > That's not too far away from $5 ... Though it's an OTP, so as soon as you need to reprogram it once, you've lost the cost savings. From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Jun 8 01:35:20 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 23:35:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Corestore - the Big Move In-Reply-To: <20080607200652.C90570@shell.lmi.net> References: <484AFAC9.1090001@oldskool.org> <20080607200652.C90570@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <51277.71.139.37.220.1212906920.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Fred wrote: > Never mind my previous post. > Does she have a sister? Does that kind of insanity run in families? :-) From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Jun 8 01:36:36 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 7 Jun 2008 23:36:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Corestore - the Big Move In-Reply-To: <20080607195809.F90570@shell.lmi.net> References: <20080607195809.F90570@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <51281.71.139.37.220.1212906996.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Fred wrote: > . . . and, if you lose a cask of Amontillado or your wife in it, . . . Aha. Fourth element of taxonomy identified. From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Jun 8 03:58:06 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 01:58:06 -0700 Subject: Corestore - the Big Move In-Reply-To: <200806072247.m57MlXnx006010@floodgap.com> References: <200806072247.m57MlXnx006010@floodgap.com> Message-ID: At 3:47 PM -0700 6/7/08, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > I'm married and that realy reduces storage space. >> >> Rememeber that it's much easier to find a good wife than a good classic >> computer :-) > >Being unmarried means I get to put my server rack in the dining room. That's >better than sex. As I'm married, my server rack and workstations are in the dining room, and my PDP-11's are in the bedroom I fail to see your point. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Jun 8 07:21:17 2008 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 05:21:17 -0700 Subject: Looking for 1Mx8 EPROMs (27C080 or 27C801) In-Reply-To: <51264.71.139.37.220.1212906827.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <000501c8c8d2$a2d785e0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> <1e1fc3e90806071539y48658870kbe7f5615b8135fad@mail.gmail.com> <51264.71.139.37.220.1212906827.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90806080521k2247ac6ax4e4785071d616e63@mail.gmail.com> On Sat, Jun 7, 2008 at 11:33 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Glen wrote: >> Digi-Key lists the M27C801-100F1 @ $7.12 each for q >= 10. >> IC EPROM 8MBIT UV 100NS 32-FDIP >> >> That's not too far away from $5 ... > > Though it's an OTP, so as soon as you need to reprogram it once, you've > lost the cost savings. > Were you referring to the M27C801-100F1 part in particular as an OTP part? >From the datasheet that would appear to be a UV erasable ceramic window part, while the 'B' and "K" parts are the OTP ones: http://www.st.com/stonline/products/literature/ds/4377/m27c801.pdf "The FDIP32W (window ceramic frit-seal package) has transparent lid which allows the user to expose the chip to ultraviolet light to erase the bit pattern." "For applications where the content is programmed only one time and erasure is not required, the M27C801 is offered in PDIP32 and PLCC32 packages." "Package F = FDIP32W B = PDIP32 K = PLCC32" From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sun Jun 8 10:00:06 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 11:00:06 -0400 Subject: Looking for 1Mx8 EPROMs (27C080 or 27C801) Message-ID: <002b01c8c978$570eb7e0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> * Previous message: Looking for 1Mx8 EPROMs (27C080 or 27C801) * Next message: Looking for 1Mx8 EPROMs (27C080 or 27C801) * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] ________________________________ Glen wrote: > Digi-Key lists the M27C801-100F1 @ $7.12 each for q >= 10. > IC EPROM 8MBIT UV 100NS 32-FDIP > > That's not too far away from $5 ... Though it's an OTP, so as soon as you need to reprogram it once, you've lost the cost savings. -----REPLY----- Regarding the OTPs, I agree and am looking for the UV eraseable EPROMs. Possibly, 27C4001 chips may work as an alternative and they are being sold by Mr. EPROMMAN. I'll get one soon and test it. I would really like to avoid OTPs as the primary method to update the software on the SBC is to download and/or create a new ROM image. OTPs have their uses and could be a "fall back to known good" chip but the lack of reprogrammability makes them wasteful in my mind. During the design, I wrestled with Flash ROM versus EPROM for quite a bit. I went with EPROM since they are unchangeable in circuit and have larger capacity for the same 32 pin socket. My assumption was with cheap and plentiful EPROM programmers (search for Willem on eBay ~$20) that practically everyone interested would have one. Flash ROM has its advantages but requires more advanced software for in circuit reprogramming. The software would have to be written too. Some Flash ROM chips have "code protect" modes as well which make them more reliable. I am considering some possible modifications to the design using shim sockets to convert to Flash ROM as they are very cheap and readily available. The best design would be flexible and accept either chip but there are differences in pin outs that prevent "drop in" replacements from working. I have already tested a variety of Flash ROM devices with no luck so far. The best solution though, IMO, would be a low cost source of used 27C080/27C801 chips. There has to be someone out there with lots of surplus used 1Mx8 chips laying around. They were common as dirt just a few years ago. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Jun 8 10:01:07 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 08:01:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Corestore - the Big Move In-Reply-To: from "Zane H. Healy" at "Jun 8, 8 01:58:06 am" Message-ID: <200806081501.m58F17wf014230@floodgap.com> > > Being unmarried means I get to put my server rack in the dining room. > > That's better than sex. > > As I'm married, my server rack and workstations are in the dining > room, and my PDP-11's are in the bedroom I fail to see your point. Does she have a sister? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Of course I run NetBSD. ---------------------------------------------------- From marvin at west.net Sun Jun 8 10:12:05 2008 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2008 08:12:05 -0700 Subject: The Machine That Changed the World: Great Brains Message-ID: <484BF6C5.40C1D6A5@west.net> I just got this in email from a friend, and thought the list might be interested. http://waxy.org/2008/06/the_machine_that_changed_the_world/ The Machine That Changed the World: Great Brains Posted Jun 3, 2008 (Updated Jun 4, 2008) The Machine That Changed the World is the longest, most comprehensive documentary about the history of computing ever produced, but since its release in 1992, it's become virtually extinct. Out of print and never released online, the only remaining copies are VHS tapes floating around school libraries or in the homes of fans who dubbed the original shows when they aired. It's a whirlwind tour of computing before the Web, with brilliant archival footage and interviews with key players ? several of whom passed away since the filming. Jointly produced by WGBH Boston and the BBC, it originally aired in the UK as The Dream Machine before its U.S. premiere in January 1992. Its broadcast was accompanied by a book co-written by the documentary's producer Jon Palfreman. With the help of Simon Willison, Jesse Legg, and (unofficially) the Portland State University library, we've tracked down and digitized all five parts. This week, I'm uploading them, annotating them with Viddler, and posting them here as streaming Flash video as they're finished. Also, the complete set will be available as high-quality MP4 downloads via BitTorrent by Friday. Here's the first of the five-part series, The Machine That Changed the World. Enjoy! Note: Like all the other materials I post here, these videos are completely out-of-print and unavailable commercially, digitized from old VHS recordings. If they ever come back into print, or the copyright holders contact me, I'll take them down immediately. From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Jun 8 10:53:46 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 11:53:46 -0400 Subject: Looking for 1Mx8 EPROMs (27C080 or 27C801) In-Reply-To: <002b01c8c978$570eb7e0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> References: <002b01c8c978$570eb7e0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <200806081153.46798.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 08 June 2008, Andrew Lynch wrote: > During the design, I wrestled with Flash ROM versus EPROM for quite a > bit. > > I went with EPROM since they are unchangeable in circuit and have > larger capacity for the same 32 pin socket. > > My assumption was with cheap and plentiful EPROM programmers (search > for Willem on eBay ~$20) that practically everyone interested would > have one. > > Flash ROM has its advantages but requires more advanced software for > in circuit reprogramming. The software would have to be written too. Flash should actually be easier than an EPROM to program, especially in-circuit, as it's designed to do that. If you're worried about accidental erasure, just throw a switch or jumper on the board to disable the /WE input to the flash. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From trixter at oldskool.org Sun Jun 8 11:27:16 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2008 11:27:16 -0500 Subject: Source for one-off ICs? In-Reply-To: <48402D24.7090802@brothom.nl> References: <484028E2.8020601@oldskool.org> <48402D24.7090802@brothom.nl> Message-ID: <484C0864.6060102@oldskool.org> Bert Thomas wrote: > Most semiconductor manufacturers supply samples free of charge, simple > by requesting them on their website. DS = Dallas Semi? That's maxim now, > so try maxim-ic.com. You have to give the right answers though: of > course you have a company and your product will probably sell 1000s. Right? > > Otherwise: Farnell has ds1216s in several variations. Perhaps one you > can use. Update: Maxim came through and sent me a sample. No data sheet sent with the sample, but the sheet is online in .PDF format. I was unable to find a Farnell equivalent. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Jun 8 11:49:11 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2008 17:49:11 +0100 Subject: Source for one-off ICs? In-Reply-To: <484C0864.6060102@oldskool.org> References: <484028E2.8020601@oldskool.org> <48402D24.7090802@brothom.nl> <484C0864.6060102@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <484C0D87.2080708@dunnington.plus.com> On 08/06/2008 17:27, Jim Leonard wrote: > Bert Thomas wrote: >> Otherwise: Farnell has ds1216s in several variations. Perhaps one you >> can use. > I was unable to find a Farnell equivalent. Catalogue number 485354, MAXIM DS1216B. Also SCDS1216C, 392765, 1224206, 485287 all show up for me, though the last few are "no longer stocked" at least in the UK. That usually just means they've revised the catalogue numbers, or that the manufacturer has updated the specs. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 8 12:38:46 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2008 10:38:46 -0700 Subject: Looking for 1Mx8 EPROMs (27C080 or 27C801) In-Reply-To: <200806081639.m58GdJ2B012239@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200806081639.m58GdJ2B012239@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <484BB6B6.8612.42D644@cclist.sydex.com> One can also purchase (very inexpensively) 32 pin DIP-to-PLCC adapters to enable one to use the still-abundant 1 and 2 Mbit Flash chips used on PC motherboards. Many of these things have boot block protection, another big plus if you're worried about inadvertently destroying the contents. The adapter allows them to programmed in your favorite ZIF-equipped programmer, if you don't want to enable in- circuit programming. FWIW, Chuck From mross666 at hotmail.com Sun Jun 8 12:56:14 2008 From: mross666 at hotmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 17:56:14 +0000 Subject: pdp-10 Message-ID: 1. It's in the USA, not the UK. 2. High-res images can be found by clicking on the low-res images at: http://www.corestore.org/DEC2065.htm Mike http://www.corestore.org _________________________________________________________________ Enjoy 5 GB of free, password-protected online storage. http://www.windowslive.com/skydrive/overview.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Refresh_skydrive_062008 From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 8 13:00:44 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2008 11:00:44 -0700 Subject: invading varmints In-Reply-To: <200806081639.m58GdJ2B012239@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200806081639.m58GdJ2B012239@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <484BBBDC.1121.56F309@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:57:29 -0700 (PDT) > From: Chris M > I arguably my first vintage computer invaded by > apparently teeny tiny critters once! I had the box, a > TI PC, stuck in my parked van for a winter anyhow. Thank your lucky stars that you didn't suffer the fate of one of our customers several years ago. He'd pulled out his Zorba from storage, opened the door of the A: drive and was bitten by several irritated brown recluse spiders that had decided to call his luggable "home". Out of curiosity, does anyone take any sort of precautions when rescuing an old piece of equipment that's been in storage for awhile? I can imagine that if brown recluse spiders can feel at home inside a computer, black widow spiders also would, not to mention cockroaches, etc. If you're going to fumigate a piece of equipment, what's the least destructive (to the equipment) fumigant? Cheers, Chuck From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Jun 8 14:12:29 2008 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2008 15:12:29 -0400 Subject: Looking for 1Mx8 EPROMs (27C080 or 27C801) In-Reply-To: <000501c8c8d2$a2d785e0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> References: <000501c8c8d2$a2d785e0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <484C2F1D.80400@compsys.to> >Andrew Lynch wrote: >Looking for 1Mx8 EPROMs (27C080 or 27C801) >Sat Jun 7 13:22:24 CDT 2008 >* Previous message: Looking for 1Mx8 EPROMs (27C080 or 27C801) > >Hi Eric, Thanks for the reply! > >Yes, finding new 1Mx8 EPROMs is not difficult but that isn't what I am >asking about. > >They only cost about $10 new and are an excellent value, IMO. > >However, I am trying to find some low cost *used* EPROM parts to help out >some homebrew SBC builders. > >The N8VEM SBC homebrew computer I designed uses the 27C080 or 27C801 for its >boot device/block device/ROM drive. > >I'd like to keep the costs as low as possible and am trying to keep the >EPROM at or below $5 each. > >OTPs are an option but they are less desireable than the reuseable parts >with UV windows. > >As it turns out, most of the people requesting the PCB for building their >own homebrew computer are also requesting the EPROM. > >It rather surprised me as I thought more people would have their own EPROM >programmers and erasers. > >I have a limited quantity of the 1Mx8 EPROMs on hand but not very many. > >At the rate they are going out with the PCBs, I will exhaust my stock >quickly -- long before I run out of PCBs. > >In retrospect, that is probably bad planning on my part this is an amateur >project and I am not a professional businessman. > >I found a few more 1Mx8 EPROMs on eBay but that doesn't really solve the >problem. > >What I need is the 1Mx8 EPROM equivalent to this website: > >http://epromman.com/ > >I have purchased bulk used EPROMs from "Mr. EPROMMAN" before and they are an >excellent value. > >Unfortunately, he doesn't carry the 1Mx8 parts. :-/ > >Thanks in advance if anyone can help. > > Jerome Fine replies: I have a number of: AM27512DC 827USGY @ 1983 AMD with 28 pins each. What are they? It is obvious they are an EPROM. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Sun Jun 8 15:01:10 2008 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2008 21:01:10 +0100 Subject: invading varmints In-Reply-To: <484BBBDC.1121.56F309@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200806081639.m58GdJ2B012239@dewey.classiccmp.org> <484BBBDC.1121.56F309@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <484C3A86.3060909@philpem.me.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > If you're going to fumigate a piece of equipment, what's the least > destructive (to the equipment) fumigant? CO2 would be the obvious answer, though I'm not sure if it'd be as harmful to insects as it is to other, larger critters. Put the kit in question in a thick plastic bag, force all the oxygen out with carbon dioxide or similar, and leave it for a while. Should certainly get rid of rodents, though insects might take a wee bit longer. Pesticide wise... no idea. Some types of fly spray certainly don't get on well with plastics..... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Jun 8 15:07:07 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 13:07:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for 1Mx8 EPROMs (27C080 or 27C801) In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90806080521k2247ac6ax4e4785071d616e63@mail.gmail.com> References: <000501c8c8d2$a2d785e0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> <1e1fc3e90806071539y48658870kbe7f5615b8135fad@mail.gmail.com> <51264.71.139.37.220.1212906827.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <1e1fc3e90806080521k2247ac6ax4e4785071d616e63@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <55564.71.139.37.220.1212955627.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Glen wrote: > From the datasheet that would appear to be a UV erasable ceramic > window part, while the 'B' and "K" parts are the OTP ones: Sorry, I was looking at the wrong information. You're correct. Eric From tiggerlasv at aim.com Sun Jun 8 15:07:31 2008 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2008 16:07:31 -0400 Subject: invading varmints Message-ID: <8CA97BA6AF23C5A-CA8-3764@webmail-ne01.sysops.aol.com> > Thank your lucky stars that you didn't suffer the fate of one of our > customers several years ago. He'd pulled out his Zorba from storage, > opened the door of the A: drive and was bitten by several irritated > brown recluse spiders that had decided to call his luggable "home". Kind of odd that he was bitten by "several" spiders, merely by opening a disk drive door. Recluses aren't at all aggressive, and generally don't go out of their way to attack. It seems highly unsual that they would "charge out in numbers", and bite. But, anything is possible. Did they manage to salvage his hand? (See link showing pictures of what a SINGLE bite will do. Note: These pictures are VERY graphic.) http://www.ascendedhealth.com/brown-recluse/bite-picture.htm We're "fortunate" enough to have both black widows, and the desert recluse here in Vegas. I'm not sure though if anyone has done any studies on the differences on the severity of the bites between the brown recluse and the desert recluse. I wouldn't be worried so much about widows; It would be unlikely to find one tucked away inside equipment, without the tell-tale sprawling tangle of spider web around it. The hobo spider of the Northwest, and the recluse of course, are different stories altogether, as they tend to wander. At any rate, back to the actual topic. ;-) If you are concerned about critters hiding inside your equipment, your first, best defense is caution. If you're in a hot-spot for venomous insects, physically protecting yourself is a good start. Wear a long sleeved shirt, and reasonably thick gloves. Make sure that your sleeve isn't exposed; tuck it under the gloves, or use some tape or other material, to ensure that nothing runs up your sleeve. If you're picking up equipment, bag it in clear plastic. That will keep critters from hopping out into your vehicle. (Watch out for static, though) Clean your equipment outdoors. If you must work indoors, then work in the middle of a large open area, preferrably with light-colored flooring. Laying down sections of white kraft paper works well. Try to establish an EMPTY 5-foot buffer zone around you. The idea is to be able to see escaping insects, before they have a chance to hide somewhere. Working on a cluttered bench is the worst idea; there too many hiding places. I honestly don't have any proven information on using insecticides inside computers / electronics. My gut tells me that it's probably not a good idea; who knows what the residue would do to the boards and components. Merely blowing out equipment with canned air isn't enough to get rid of any would-be stow-aways, either. Short of disassembly, the only other thing I could think of would be a hair dryer. I know. . . such a high-tech solution. Short-term heat from a reasonable distance shouldn't hurt any electronics, but should be enough to kill any insects, or bring them out of hiding. Component chiller would work too, although that may leave residue behind. As for any eggs, I can only recommend inspection & cleaning. T From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jun 8 15:36:34 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 13:36:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: invading varmints In-Reply-To: <8CA97BA6AF23C5A-CA8-3764@webmail-ne01.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CA97BA6AF23C5A-CA8-3764@webmail-ne01.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <20080608133449.L19513@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 8 Jun 2008 tiggerlasv at aim.com wrote: > Short of disassembly, the only other thing I could think of > would be a hair dryer. I know. . . such a high-tech solution. > Short-term heat from a reasonable distance shouldn't hurt any > electronics, but should be enough to kill any insects, > or bring them out of hiding. Component chiller would work too, > although that may leave residue behind. So, . . . the heat of running Windoze will permit the Windoze bugs to chase out most others. From ats at offog.org Sun Jun 8 16:03:00 2008 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2008 22:03:00 +0100 Subject: Looking for 1Mx8 EPROMs (27C080 or 27C801) In-Reply-To: <484C2F1D.80400@compsys.to> (Jerome H. Fine's message of "Sun\, 08 Jun 2008 15\:12\:29 -0400") References: <000501c8c8d2$a2d785e0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> <484C2F1D.80400@compsys.to> Message-ID: "Jerome H. Fine" writes: > AM27512DC [...] > What are they? It is obvious they are an EPROM. 27512s are 64 kilobyte EPROMs. (2716 are 2K, 2732 4K, and so on.) -- Adam Sampson From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sun Jun 8 17:34:06 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 18:34:06 -0400 Subject: Looking for 1Mx8 EPROMs (27C080 or 27C801) Message-ID: <000e01c8c9b7$c35820f0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> * Previous message: Looking for 1Mx8 EPROMs (27C080 or 27C801) * Next message: The Machine That Changed the World: Great Brains * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] ________________________________ On Sunday 08 June 2008, Andrew Lynch wrote: > During the design, I wrestled with Flash ROM versus EPROM for quite a > bit. > > I went with EPROM since they are unchangeable in circuit and have > larger capacity for the same 32 pin socket. > > My assumption was with cheap and plentiful EPROM programmers (search > for Willem on eBay ~$20) that practically everyone interested would > have one. > > Flash ROM has its advantages but requires more advanced software for > in circuit reprogramming. The software would have to be written too. Flash should actually be easier than an EPROM to program, especially in-circuit, as it's designed to do that. If you're worried about accidental erasure, just throw a switch or jumper on the board to disable the /WE input to the flash. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org ________________________________ -----REPLY----- Hi Pat, Well, in theory you may be right but this SBC has already been designed and manufactured. The PCB exists and is shipping now so it is a bit late for the initial design considerations. I understand the appeal of Flash ROM but the parts are more expensive and many can be corrupted in circuit with errant software. Even with code protection modes, there is no guarantee of non-corruption on Flash ROMs. At some point you'll have to lower the protection if you ever want to write to that part of the chip. In circuit reprogramming ability opens the door for those sorts of bugs to creep in to the code. EPROMs cannot be corrupted in circuit, short of a broken component, AFAIK. Some Flash ROM chips do support code protection but not all. Really, any part you select for this job has its costs and benefits. It all gets down to trade offs. One of my primary goals of the SBC is to keep the overall cost to a minimum while providing something useful. Generally speaking, EPROM is cheaper than Flash ROM and also has larger capacity. The price is requiring external programming and erasing. Incorporating EPROM is also requires less complex circuit and the software is easier to write and debug. There is no chance of "bricking" the SBC due to a bug in the CBIOS code either. At least in this case, I am also more familiar with the technology and I was able to reuse my prototype design almost as is. Not having to write special software was a big plus too. In short, EPROM seemed like a hands down winner. What caught me by surprise was the larger than expected demand for the pre-programmed EPROMs. Even that isn't really much of a problem since if I can't find a source for low cost used parts, I can just buy a tube or so of new ones from Jameco. Brand new, they only cost $6.25 each when you buy 10 or more. I can just raise the price of the EPROM but I would rather keep it as low as possible. Thanks for the help and comments. Please let me know if anyone gets any other ideas. Have a nice day! Andrew Lynch PS, I did some investigating and experimenting with the 29F020 style chips. It turns out making a shim socket for getting them to work is trivial. I have several compatible chips on hand. It still doesn't add in circuit reprogramming but even that would be fairly easy with some cuts and jumpers and appropriate software. From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Jun 8 17:47:24 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2008 18:47:24 -0400 Subject: invading varmints was Re: powering up older machines - is it safe? In-Reply-To: <372711.85882.qm@web65510.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <372711.85882.qm@web65510.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200806081847.24942.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 05 June 2008 18:57, Chris M wrote: > I arguably my first vintage computer invaded by > apparently teeny tiny critters once! I had the box, a > TI PC, stuck in my parked van for a winter anyhow. I > fired it up one day, and nothing happened, and the fan > would only budge intermittently. I opened it up and > *something* doo doo doo doo, tore up all sort of paper > and insulation to make a really suave pad! Thing is > the opening were pretty small. I have trouble thinking > it was done by insects, but I cannot imagine a rodent > fitting through any of those openings. It was skeery! I used to walk past this business that dealt with such critters, and this sign in a window detailed some surprising facts, like how a rat could fit through a hole only a half inch in diameter. I'd suppose that if we were talking about a mouse that'd be even smaller... > --- schwepes at moog.netaxs.com wrote: > > I've had the issue twice. The first time was a Heathkit stereo where > > a bad capacitor killed the transformer and the second one was an Acer > > 286 that had a mouse problem, biological kind. bs > > > > On Wed, 4 Jun 2008, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > I can understand worrying about something that's not been used for > > > > a few years, but if you check everything that's not been used for > > > > just a few months, when do you have time to actually _do_ anything? > > > > > Well, if I am using a machine every day, I don't check it every time > > > (there's no point, the PSU could fail in the time between checking it > > > and reconnectin it to the logic :-)). But if I get a machine out that > > > I've not used recently, then, yes, I do check it. It doesn't take me > > > long. I've probably done it before, so I know what to unplug, where to > > > connect the dummy load (if needed) and the meter, and so on. In come > > > cases, I've built up test units, in which case it takes even less time. > > > > > > And 10 minutes, or so, spent checking the PSU is easily a lot less than > > > the time it would take me to sort out the damage caused by a > > > malfunctioning PSU. > > > > > > -tony -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Jun 8 17:55:15 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2008 18:55:15 -0400 Subject: invading varmints In-Reply-To: <484BBBDC.1121.56F309@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200806081639.m58GdJ2B012239@dewey.classiccmp.org> <484BBBDC.1121.56F309@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200806081855.15991.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 08 June 2008 14:00, Chuck Guzis wrote: > If you're going to fumigate a piece of equipment, what's the least > destructive (to the equipment) fumigant? I have a truck that spends a lot of time sitting around. I used to have a problem with yellowjackets getting into it and building nests, in some of the damndest places. And then at one point I got given a jug of "gear oil" (the sort of stuff you'd put in the rear end "punkin") and it had a hole in the jug, so I had to be careful how I put it in the back of the truck, where it's been ever since. Now you open the rear window on the cap, and the inside of it smells like an old garage and nary a critter in sight. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Jun 8 17:58:10 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2008 18:58:10 -0400 Subject: invading varmints In-Reply-To: <484C3A86.3060909@philpem.me.uk> References: <200806081639.m58GdJ2B012239@dewey.classiccmp.org> <484BBBDC.1121.56F309@cclist.sydex.com> <484C3A86.3060909@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <200806081858.10317.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 08 June 2008 16:01, Philip Pemberton wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > If you're going to fumigate a piece of equipment, what's the least > > destructive (to the equipment) fumigant? > > CO2 would be the obvious answer, though I'm not sure if it'd be as harmful > to insects as it is to other, larger critters. Put the kit in question in a > thick plastic bag, force all the oxygen out with carbon dioxide or similar, > and leave it for a while. Should certainly get rid of rodents, though > insects might take a wee bit longer. Sure does work on insects, this is a pretty common technique for folks that want to store grain for long term, put a bag liner inside of a 5 gallon bucket, drop a chunk of dry ice in there and after it sublimates close up the bag. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Jun 8 18:38:33 2008 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2008 18:38:33 -0500 Subject: Corestore - the Big Move In-Reply-To: <484AFAC9.1090001@oldskool.org> References: <484AFAC9.1090001@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <484C6D79.6080905@mdrconsult.com> Jim Leonard wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: >>> I'm married and that really reduces storage space. >> >> Remember that it's much easier to find a good wife than a good classic >> computer :-) > > Oh, I don't know about that -- I have a wife that tolerates my classic > computers, and I think the rarity of *that* combination is so > unfathomable that it threatens to implode the very fabric of space and > time. Likewise, on both counts. I spend a lot of money on flowers and silly cards. :) Doc From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jun 8 19:21:27 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 17:21:27 -0700 Subject: Looking for 1Mx8 EPROMs (27C080 or 27C801) In-Reply-To: <484BB6B6.8612.42D644@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200806081639.m58GdJ2B012239@dewey.classiccmp.org> <484BB6B6.8612.42D644@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: cclist at sydex.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 10:38:46 -0700 > Subject: Re: Looking for 1Mx8 EPROMs (27C080 or 27C801) > > One can also purchase (very inexpensively) 32 pin DIP-to-PLCC > adapters to enable one to use the still-abundant 1 and 2 Mbit Flash > chips used on PC motherboards. Many of these things have boot block > protection, another big plus if you're worried about inadvertently > destroying the contents. The adapter allows them to programmed in > your favorite ZIF-equipped programmer, if you don't want to enable in- > circuit programming. > > FWIW, > Chuck > Hi I recall looking at one of the early flashes with a boot block and thinking that the boot block alone could contain a complete Forth interpreter/compiler with room to spare for things like hardware reset. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Now you can invite friends from Facebook and other groups to join you on Windows Live? Messenger. Add now. https://www.invite2messenger.net/im/?source=TXT_EML_WLH_AddNow_Now From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jun 8 19:25:32 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 17:25:32 -0700 Subject: invading varmints In-Reply-To: <484BBBDC.1121.56F309@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200806081639.m58GdJ2B012239@dewey.classiccmp.org> <484BBBDC.1121.56F309@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: cclist at sydex.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 11:00:44 -0700 > Subject: Re: invading varmints > ---snip--- > > If you're going to fumigate a piece of equipment, what's the least > destructive (to the equipment) fumigant? > > Cheers, > Chuck > Place it in a sealed plastic bag and put it in the oven. Bake at about 120 to 130F for about 4 hours. Not much can live through that but the electronics shouldn't have any issues as long as it is cooled before powering up. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Now you can invite friends from Facebook and other groups to join you on Windows Live? Messenger. Add now. https://www.invite2messenger.net/im/?source=TXT_EML_WLH_AddNow_Now From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Sun Jun 8 22:13:52 2008 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 20:13:52 -0700 Subject: invading varmints In-Reply-To: <8CA97BA6AF23C5A-CA8-3764@webmail-ne01.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CA97BA6AF23C5A-CA8-3764@webmail-ne01.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jun 8, 2008 at 1:07 PM, wrote: > > >> Thank your lucky stars that you didn't suffer the fate of one of our >> customers several years ago. He'd pulled out his Zorba from storage, >> opened the door of the A: drive and was bitten by several irritated >> brown recluse spiders that had decided to call his luggable "home". > > Kind of odd that he was bitten by "several" spiders, > merely by opening a disk drive door. Recluses aren't > at all aggressive, and generally don't go out of their way to attack. > It seems highly unsual that they would "charge out in numbers", > and bite. But, anything is possible. > Did they manage to salvage his hand? > > (See link showing pictures of what a SINGLE bite will do. > Note: These pictures are VERY graphic.) I didn't see the initial post on this one, but I would also be surprised because recluses do tend to be very reclusive. The natural response to opening a disk drive door would be for them to go deeper into the machine. You're far more likely to get a brown recluse bite from somewhere where escape is more difficult. I understand sock drawers are a good place to get bitten when you get home from vacation. I also didn't see the locale on this one which does make a big difference. No effect from the bites isn't a big issue because estimates are that about 85% of brown recluse bites go unnoticed. Necrosis is a fairly rare side effect of brown recluse bites. It's hard to pin those numbers down because in many parts of the country any unexplained necrosis is automatically ascribed to brown recluse bites (including parts of the country where brown recluses have never been sighted). You'd be surprised how many claims there are of brown recluse sightings in California. Despite rumors to the contrary there is no evidence of breeding populations of brown recluses in California. Of course if you stack a crate of fresh Georgia peaches on one of your machines, any spiders present could take up residence. However the native spiders are pretty well equipped to outcompete similar non-native species. Many CA sightings are of desert recluse, but most are just another random species of spider that happens to be brown. From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jun 9 00:46:17 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 22:46:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: invading varmints In-Reply-To: from Eric J Korpela at "Jun 8, 8 08:13:52 pm" Message-ID: <200806090546.m595kHim033872@floodgap.com> > I didn't see the initial post on this one, but I would also be > surprised because recluses do tend to be very reclusive. The natural > response to opening a disk drive door would be for them to go deeper > into the machine. Plus, for the record, pulling out my MD for a second, spiderbite is actually quite uncommon. People come in and tell me about the "spider" that "bit" them when usually it's just a garden-variety abscess, usually an ingrown hair or something similar. Spiders don't go around biting people randomly without some sort of provocation or harassment. > Many CA sightings are of desert recluse, but most > are just another random species of spider that happens to be brown. House spiders and wolf spiders come to mind. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- A service of the Department of the Redundancy Department service. ---------- From keithvz at verizon.net Mon Jun 9 00:58:17 2008 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2008 01:58:17 -0400 Subject: 1Mx4 DRAM 20-pin dips Message-ID: <484CC679.4030600@verizon.net> I'm searching for a source of a DRAM memory IC that would have the following specs: 20-pin DIP DRAM memory chips (16) 1meg x 4-bit dips make up a bank of 8mb. Should be 60-ns Fast Page Mode non-parity An example would be Toshiba TC514400AP-60. Other manufacturers might use the following base part numbers: Fujitsu MB : 814400 Goldstar GM : 71C4400 Hitachi HM : 514400 Hyundai HY : 514400 Micron MT : 4C4001 Mitsubishi M5M: 44400 Any idea where I could find these would be appreciated. I'm even up to pulling the DRAM from some old boards, if I can find someplace that has boards that contain these chips. Maybe an old printer buffer memory card or something. Certain Epson ActionLaser printers contained the correct chips. There's some surface mount versions that won't work, and there's also a 26/20-pin version that won't work. These incorrect dips would have 20-pins, but are laid out in a 26-pin configuration with 10 pins on each side, separated by a small (3-pin) gap on either side. These seem popular, but unfortunately, they won't work! Thanks! Keith From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon Jun 9 01:55:03 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2008 07:55:03 +0100 Subject: OT: Low-poer real-audio player In-Reply-To: <2661.1211970671@mini> References: <483BFAA2.16096.8533A8@cclist.sydex.com> <2661.1211970671@mini> Message-ID: <1212994503.25788.43.camel@elric> On Wed, 2008-05-28 at 06:31 -0400, Brad Parker wrote: > "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > > > >Does anyone have any other low-power ideas? Note that most of the > >streams I listen to are RA, not MP3. > > This may not help you, but I bought a Freecom Musicpal and I love it. > > But all of the streams I listen to are MP3. I can recommend the Freecom Musicpal too, especially with the most recent firmware update (unless there's been one since I updated last month). Freecom are slightly iffy about releasing the source for the proprietary wifi drivers on the board, but you can get the firmware source for them and roll your own custom version. Also, that USB socket-sized knockout on the back? It's got pads for a USB socket behind there, just not populated. Apparently you can easily add one in. There's some discussion on the forum about adding RA streaming to it. Either they'll get it working or the last few RA customers will see sense and switch to a sensible format ;-) Gordon From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Mon Jun 9 02:01:46 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2008 08:01:46 +0100 Subject: IBM XT diagnostic ROM In-Reply-To: <20080528131358.V82915@shell.lmi.net> References: <95ddf3400805280822y7dcd0ad3x849a388fabdaef3d@mail.gmail.com> <20080528131358.V82915@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <1212994906.25788.45.camel@elric> On Wed, 2008-05-28 at 13:32 -0700, Fred Cisin wrote: > In addition to trouble-shooting boot problems, they can be incredibly > useful in software debugging, (not quite as useful as an NMI based Sounds like a good use for those seemingly-pointless speed indicator displays on old PCs, if only for the blinkylight value when booting... Gordon From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 8 15:03:59 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 13:03:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: invading varmints In-Reply-To: <484BBBDC.1121.56F309@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <221555.16549.qm@web65504.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Date: Thu, 5 Jun 2008 15:57:29 -0700 (PDT) > > From: Chris M > > > I arguably my first vintage computer invaded by > > apparently teeny tiny critters once! I had the > box, a > > TI PC, stuck in my parked van for a winter anyhow. > > > Thank your lucky stars that you didn't suffer the > fate of one of our > customers several years ago. He'd pulled out his > Zorba from storage, > opened the door of the A: drive and was bitten by > several irritated > brown recluse spiders that had decided to call his > luggable "home". I had a friend who was bitten by one. Off went his pinky (he was claustrophobic and refused to sit in the, uh, hyperbolic chamber, oi IIRC, which would have conceivably saved it. Don't ask me, I'm just relating what he told me. > Out of curiosity, does anyone take any sort of > precautions when > rescuing an old piece of equipment that's been in > storage for awhile? > I can imagine that if brown recluse spiders can feel > at home inside a > computer, black widow spiders also would, not to > mention cockroaches, > etc. So no one even wants to warrant a guess as to what was living in mine? Shredded paper and insulation (the van was originally my brother's - not exactly a 70's relic but close - no brown panelling but there were boards screwed along the inside (w/insutlation behind) - to hang pictures maybe??? LOL LOL LOL LOL! > If you're going to fumigate a piece of equipment, > what's the least > destructive (to the equipment) fumigant? Presumably if it's not going to remain on the circuitry or components very long, not likely that those types of chemicals would hurt it. I've tossed keyboards in reasonably strong ammonia solutions, so I wouldn't get too concerned about *bug juice*. Of course I hear the stuff that's commonly available on the left coast, ironically, is stronger then what the layman can buy off the shelf here in NJ for instance. Ok, but this does entail a subsequent wash down. Perhaps a better approach would be to leave the piece of equipment out in the blazing sun for a bit until it's too uncomfortable for anything to remain. Probably not the best idea if a magnetic disk is involved, but 1/2 - 1 hour in the sun isn't likely too damage circuity. I wouldn't think. Removing a mobo in most cases into that big a deal. I've had to do even back in oh 1990 when my T2K was acting funky. Pulled it out (had lots of experience doing that anyway, was constantly taking it apart - probably why it got funky to begin with), pulled all the socketed chips (BUT LEFT THEM ADJACENT TO THEIR SOCKETS) and sprayed the whole thing down w/some solution I bought from Radio Shack. Let it dry, put it all back together, and it ran like a charm. For a while. Did another wash down not too long after - probably didn't let it dry long enought that time though. It was as flakey as ever :(. Eventually tossed it. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 8 15:39:01 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 13:39:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: invading varmints In-Reply-To: <8CA97BA6AF23C5A-CA8-3764@webmail-ne01.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <520408.42429.qm@web65504.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> the best approach to take in order to avoid this situation altogehter is put your stuff in a heavy (3-4 gauge) plastic bag and put a tight not in the end. The things usually come in rolls at Walmart or in boxes sometimes - Home Depot, Lowes, etc. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 8 15:47:58 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2008 13:47:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: invading varmints In-Reply-To: <20080608133449.L19513@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <566078.8704.qm@web65514.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- Fred Cisin wrote: > So, . . . > the heat of running Windoze will permit the Windoze > bugs to chase out most > others. Wouldn't it be problematic though to just turn a computer on if it's been improperly stored for that long? What if a nice chunky brown recluse got mashed up in your disk drives as the spindle got activated? Ewwwww From derschjo at msu.edu Sun Jun 8 04:29:19 2008 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2008 02:29:19 -0700 Subject: Good Composite->VGA converters for classic computers (& video games...) In-Reply-To: <44050.71.139.37.220.1212343467.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <4841BCBA.1070109@msu.edu> <44050.71.139.37.220.1212343467.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <484BA66F.1020503@msu.edu> Eric Smith wrote: > The problem with the Apple II is that it does NOT produce NTSC video, > but rather something close enough to fool an analog television set or > monitor. The timings are deliberately wrong, especially the frequency > and phase relationships of the color subcarrier to the horizontal > sync. > > Converters use commodity NTSC decoder chips that get confused > by signals with significant deviations from standard NTSC. > > > Just to follow up on this thread (back before it diverged :)): I've done some testing of the composite->VGA adapter I have with a bunch of my classic computers & video games, in case anyone's interested. The results are: Work fine: - NES - C64 - VIC20 - Amiga 2000 (mono composite) - "Modern" video games (Sega Saturn, Dreamcast, PSX, etc...) Do not work: - Atari 800XL - TI 99/4A - Sega Genesis - Atari 2600 (w/composite hack...) - Apple II - Panasonic JR-200U The converter in question is a Geniatech "V2V Pro." It's unfortunate that it's so incompatible, it's pretty well built, relatively inexpensive (cost me $30) and supports decent VGA resolutions (up to 1680x1050, not that it matters much since it's converting an NTSC signal...). The picture quality is pretty good when it's working properly. Looks like I'll be sending this one back, though. Alas. Josh From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Jun 9 08:59:19 2008 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2008 08:59:19 -0500 Subject: invading varmints In-Reply-To: <484BBBDC.1121.56F309@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200806081639.m58GdJ2B012239@dewey.classiccmp.org> <484BBBDC.1121.56F309@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <484D3737.50104@mdrconsult.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Out of curiosity, does anyone take any sort of precautions when > rescuing an old piece of equipment that's been in storage for awhile? > I can imagine that if brown recluse spiders can feel at home inside a > computer, black widow spiders also would, not to mention cockroaches, > etc. I've found fire ants, brown recluses, and one black widow in stored equipment. The only infestation that ever "got" me was some kind of sand lice or fleas or something, from a drive tray I picked up on the Gulf Coast a couple of years ago. If I suspect critters, I'll put the box in a black trash bag in the sun for a few hours. That gets pretty warm in the Texas sun, and anything mobile will try to vacate. There's also that thing about looking before I stick my fingers in. :) Doc From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Jun 9 10:54:50 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2008 16:54:50 +0100 Subject: invading varmints In-Reply-To: <221555.16549.qm@web65504.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <221555.16549.qm@web65504.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <484D524A.5040408@dunnington.plus.com> On 08/06/2008 21:03, Chris M wrote: > --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > I had a friend who was bitten by one. Off went his > pinky (he was claustrophobic and refused to sit in > the, uh, hyperbolic chamber, He probably meant "hyperbaric" -- high pressure, used for such things as decompression sickness in divers. > So no one even wants to warrant a guess as to what > was living in mine? Shredded paper and insulation Probably mice. They can get through much smaller gaps than you'd believe - a fraction of an inch is enough. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 9 12:35:01 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2008 10:35:01 -0700 Subject: invading varmints In-Reply-To: <200806091700.m59H0QPQ024486@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200806091700.m59H0QPQ024486@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <484D0755.16009.8895FB@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2008 16:07:31 -0400 > From: tiggerlasv > Kind of odd that he was bitten by "several" spiders, > merely by opening a disk drive door. Recluses aren't > at all aggressive, and generally don't go out of their way to attack. > It seems highly unsual that they would "charge out in numbers", > and bite. But, anything is possible. Well, I never met the guy face-to-face and am simply recounting what was told to me by him. We've got spiders all over the place here and generally I've never had any problems with them--they mostly try to flee. On the other hand, I shudder when I think about yellowjackets and stepping on a nest--but I've never run into electronic gear infested by the nasty buggers. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 9 12:42:01 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2008 10:42:01 -0700 Subject: OT: Low-poer real-audio player In-Reply-To: <200806091700.m59H0QPQ024486@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200806091700.m59H0QPQ024486@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <484D08F9.19424.8EFF7B@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2008 07:55:03 +0100 > From: Gordon JC Pearce > I can recommend the Freecom Musicpal too, especially with the most > recent firmware update (unless there's been one since I updated last > month). I wound up getting an HP E-PC cheap, disconnecting the CD-ROM drive and subsituting a CF card for the hard drive (no swap partition). I can run Linux on it and even use it as a router without drinking a lot of power. While other devices like the Musicpal may be better candidates, the PC box gives me the most flexibility. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 8 18:35:36 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 00:35:36 +0100 (BST) Subject: Looking for 1Mx8 EPROMs (27C080 or 27C801) In-Reply-To: from "Adam Sampson" at Jun 8, 8 10:03:00 pm Message-ID: > > "Jerome H. Fine" writes: > > > AM27512DC > [...] > > What are they? It is obvious they are an EPROM. > > 27512s are 64 kilobyte EPROMs. (2716 are 2K, 2732 4K, and so on.) The digits after the '27' are the capacity in kilobits. 512kbits = 64kbytes, etc. -tony From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Jun 9 14:51:36 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 12:51:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for 1Mx8 EPROMs (27C080 or 27C801) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <57848.64.62.206.10.1213041096.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Tony wrote: > The digits after the '27' are the capacity in kilobits. 512kbits = > 64kbytes, etc. Only for small parts. That numbering system fell apart after the 512 Kbit level. There were some 27C1024 parts, but most vendors switched to numbers like 27C010, and even that wasn't done consistently. The biggest gotchas with older EPROMs are: * Variations in programming voltage, e.g.: 2732 - 25V 2732A - 21V 2732B - 12.5V However, some vendors didn't follow Intel's lead on the programming voltages and part number suffixes. * Pinout and voltages differences for same part number: Intel 2716 is a 5V-only part. TI TMS2716 requires three supplies, and the pinout is significantly different than the Intel part. TI TMS2516 is fully compatible with the Intel 2716. Most other vendor's 2716 parts were Intel 2716 compatible, unless they were designated TMS2716. On the other hand: TI TMS2532 is NOT compatible with Intel 2732. From reevejd at mchsi.com Mon Jun 9 15:45:46 2008 From: reevejd at mchsi.com (John D. Reeve) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 15:45:46 -0500 Subject: invading varmints Message-ID: <002901c8ca71$cc22b140$6501a8c0@southern64da3c> Finally, a classic computer question involving insects. If you're dealing with insects and probably arachnids as well, a small chunk of no-pest strip should rapidly kill them. I'd enclose the machine in a plastic bag to concentrate the fumes. Rural King has it. Cheers, John R. -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 129 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Jun 9 16:51:45 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2008 16:51:45 -0500 Subject: Good Composite->VGA converters for classic computers (& video games...) In-Reply-To: <484BA66F.1020503@msu.edu> References: <4841BCBA.1070109@msu.edu> <44050.71.139.37.220.1212343467.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <484BA66F.1020503@msu.edu> Message-ID: <484DA5F1.1070105@oldskool.org> Josh Dersch wrote: > > The converter in question is a Geniatech "V2V Pro." It's unfortunate > that it's so incompatible, it's pretty well built, relatively > inexpensive (cost me $30) and supports decent VGA resolutions (up to Found the problem. With scan converters, you definitely get what you pay for. There's a reason Folsom units are $20K. :-0 -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From chabib451 at yahoo.com Mon Jun 9 13:28:52 2008 From: chabib451 at yahoo.com (charles habib) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 11:28:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Epilogue Pantone or RAL reference for the blue color of the IMSAI Message-ID: <712981.80307.qm@web31606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi everybody finally i got the cover and base of my Imsai repaint here in Switzerland. For who may be interested here are the colour references Blue Cover; NCS S 2050-B (Europe) Pantone Blue 740L Grey Base NCS S7502-B Pantone cool grey 11C Both are powder coated with structure Hope this will help someone out there Charles Habib From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Mon Jun 9 18:22:39 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 23:22:39 +0000 Subject: older EPROMs (was Re: Looking for 1Mx8 EPROMs (27C080 or 27C801)) In-Reply-To: <57848.64.62.206.10.1213041096.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <57848.64.62.206.10.1213041096.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20080609232239.GB5189@usap.gov> On Mon, Jun 09, 2008 at 12:51:36PM -0700, Eric Smith wrote: > On the other hand: > > TI TMS2532 is NOT compatible with Intel 2732. *But* it _is_ pin-compatible with the MOS 2332 ROM, so is useful for the ROM sockets on dynamic PETs (2001-16N, 2001-32N, 3016, 3032, 4016, 4032, 8032). When I see TMS2532s float by, I make sure to save them. They are a lot less common than 2732s. Of course, you can use a pin-swapper to fit a 2732 into a PET, but if you have 2532s lying around, they go right in (as do 2716s, if you have a 2K utility to install). -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 9-Jun-2008 at 23:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -67.5 F (-55.3 C) Windchill -94.7 F (-70.4 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 6.2 kts Grid 39 Barometer 685.7 mb (10414 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Jun 9 19:08:18 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2008 19:08:18 -0500 Subject: invading varmints In-Reply-To: <484D3737.50104@mdrconsult.com> References: <200806081639.m58GdJ2B012239@dewey.classiccmp.org> <484BBBDC.1121.56F309@cclist.sydex.com> <484D3737.50104@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <484DC5F2.8010802@oldskool.org> Doc Shipley wrote: > If I suspect critters, I'll put the box in a black trash bag in the > sun for a few hours. That gets pretty warm in the Texas sun, and > anything mobile will try to vacate. Forgive the daft question, but you do seal the bag (to roast them) or leave it open (so they escape)? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From raquel.garcia at psi-corp.com Mon Jun 9 12:50:59 2008 From: raquel.garcia at psi-corp.com (Garcia, Raquel) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 13:50:59 -0400 Subject: TRS9200BBDED MANUAL (922534) Message-ID: <7F70D0DDA5765949AAB66109B74F336601EDC36F@PSI-MAIL.psi-corp.com> Would you happen to have a manual for unit# TRS9200BBDED (EECO UNIT#) even a pdf file would work. Thanks, Raquel L. Garcia Electronics Purchasing PSI Repair Services, Inc. raquel.garcia at psi-corp.com 734-853-5222 ph. 734-853-5038 fx. From derschjo at msu.edu Mon Jun 9 22:26:19 2008 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 09 Jun 2008 20:26:19 -0700 Subject: Good Composite->VGA converters for classic computers (& video games...) In-Reply-To: <484DA5F1.1070105@oldskool.org> References: <4841BCBA.1070109@msu.edu> <44050.71.139.37.220.1212343467.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <484BA66F.1020503@msu.edu> <484DA5F1.1070105@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <484DF45B.6050006@msu.edu> Jim Leonard wrote: > Josh Dersch wrote: >> >> The converter in question is a Geniatech "V2V Pro." It's unfortunate >> that it's so incompatible, it's pretty well built, relatively >> inexpensive (cost me $30) and supports decent VGA resolutions (up to > > Found the problem. > > With scan converters, you definitely get what you pay for. There's a > reason Folsom units are $20K. :-0 Well, sure. I wasn't expecting the highest quality output for what I paid (but I didn't _need_ that...). But I wasn't expecting it to be unable to sync to half of my gear :). I'm sure there has to be a happy medium between $30 and $20,000.... Josh From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Jun 10 01:38:17 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 23:38:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: home for Tandy PT210 manuals Message-ID: Does someone have a website of Tandy manuals who'd like to host the scans of the user and service manuals for the PT210 printing terminal? I've been hosting them for a while, but I don't have very much bandwidth to spare. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Jun 10 01:53:16 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2008 23:53:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: s100-manuals.com snatched? Message-ID: Who had s100-manuals.com? It's now showing a generic "parked at godaddy" page. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Jun 10 01:31:31 2008 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 02:31:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: HP IIISi: "50 SERVICE" Message-ID: <200806100752.DAA15276@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> I was printing on my IIISi tonight and, between jobs, it switched from working normally to displaying "50 SERVICE" (with the "50" flashing) and not accepting print jobs. Power cycling doesn't help. I've done a little poking around, but haven't managed to find a service manual for the silly thing. Bitsavers has only one file under hp/printers/, and that one doesn't cover the IIISi. Google finds another file which covers a few III printers, but not the IIISi. Anyone have the manual, or at least have some idea what "50 SERVICE" means I need to do? (What is it with this week and hardware? I'm beginning to feel as though any hardware I try to use this week breaks.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ragooman at comcast.net Tue Jun 10 07:08:52 2008 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 08:08:52 -0400 Subject: s100-manuals.com snatched? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <484E6ED4.1070801@comcast.net> David Griffith wrote: > Who had s100-manuals.com? It's now showing a generic "parked at godaddy" > page. > > Whois search show this person. This domain expired Jun 9th http://whois.domaintools.com/s100-manuals.com Registrant: Randall McLaughlin 149 Terry Cove Florence, Mississippi 39073 United States Domain Name: S100-MANUALS.COM Created on: 09-Jun-04 Expires on: 09-Jun-08 Last Updated on: 19-Apr-06 Administrative Contact: McLaughlin, Randall 149 Terry Cove Florence, Mississippi 39073 United States 6018456734 Fax -- Technical Contact: McLaughlin, Randall 149 Terry Cove Florence, Mississippi 39073 United States 6018456734 Fax -- Domain servers in listed order: NS45.DOMAINCONTROL.COM NS46.DOMAINCONTROL.COM =Dan [ Pittsburgh --- http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 07:21:25 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 05:21:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP IIISi: "50 SERVICE" In-Reply-To: <200806100752.DAA15276@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <297557.28591.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > I was printing on my IIISi tonight and, between jobs, it > switched from > working normally to displaying "50 SERVICE" (with > the "50" flashing) > and not accepting print jobs. That's a fuser error. The fuser has gone open circuit (bulb burned out). Fortunately, fusers for that machine are not expensive. > Anyone have the manual, or at least have some idea what > "50 SERVICE" > means I need to do? I think I have a PDF manual, I'll see if I can dig it up. Contact me off list. -Ian From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 07:21:53 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 05:21:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP IIISi: "50 SERVICE" In-Reply-To: <200806100752.DAA15276@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <889053.98289.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > I was printing on my IIISi tonight and, between jobs, it > switched from > working normally to displaying "50 SERVICE" (with > the "50" flashing) > and not accepting print jobs. That's a fuser error. The fuser has gone open circuit (bulb burned out). Fortunately, fusers for that machine are not expensive. > Anyone have the manual, or at least have some idea what > "50 SERVICE" > means I need to do? I think I have a PDF manual, I'll see if I can dig it up. Contact me off list. -Ian From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue Jun 10 09:54:05 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 11:54:05 -0300 Subject: HP IIISi: "50 SERVICE" References: <200806100752.DAA15276@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <017b01c8cb0a$2006fee0$0102a8c0@portajara> >I was printing on my IIISi tonight and, between jobs, it switched from > working normally to displaying "50 SERVICE" (with the "50" flashing) > and not accepting print jobs. This is one of the most common problem in the II and III series. Usually a broken fusor lamp or problem in the AC Module. In the II/III it is ALWAYS the small thyristor in the AC module. You can use a TIC106 in its place. Open the printer, fool the door sensor and measure 120 VAC (or would it be VDC?) on the fuser's terminals. If you don't have the 120 V(d?)AC, the AC module is broken, just change the main thyristor. There should be a service manual on emule... From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Jun 10 10:23:18 2008 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 10:23:18 -0500 Subject: invading varmints In-Reply-To: <484DC5F2.8010802@oldskool.org> References: <200806081639.m58GdJ2B012239@dewey.classiccmp.org> <484BBBDC.1121.56F309@cclist.sydex.com> <484D3737.50104@mdrconsult.com> <484DC5F2.8010802@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <484E9C66.8020305@mdrconsult.com> Jim Leonard wrote: > Doc Shipley wrote: >> If I suspect critters, I'll put the box in a black trash bag in the >> sun for a few hours. That gets pretty warm in the Texas sun, and >> anything mobile will try to vacate. > > Forgive the daft question, but you do seal the bag (to roast them) or > leave it open (so they escape)? Leave it open. I usually put the bag down over the case, if it's roughly PC or drawer-shaped, and weight the edges at intervals. Killing bugs down here is like bailing out the ocean with a coffee mug. I just want them elsewhere before I arrive. :) Doc From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 10:59:08 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 08:59:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP IIISi: "50 SERVICE" In-Reply-To: <889053.98289.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <529834.62965.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 6/10/08, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > Anyone have the manual, or at least have some idea > what > > "50 SERVICE" > > means I need to do? > > I think I have a PDF manual, I'll see if I can dig it > up. Contact me off list. > Gah. I just checked the file server - I don't have the manual handy in PDF. All I had was a user's guide. (pretty useless - "To load paper, remove paper cassette..") When I'm back at the office I'll check the shelf. I must have it in dead tree format. Some of the early HP manuals I have were spiral bound, would be hell to scan. Anyone have it in PDF for our friend? -Ian From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 10:59:40 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 08:59:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP IIISi: "50 SERVICE" In-Reply-To: <889053.98289.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <804239.42485.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 6/10/08, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > Anyone have the manual, or at least have some idea > what > > "50 SERVICE" > > means I need to do? > > I think I have a PDF manual, I'll see if I can dig it > up. Contact me off list. > Gah. I just checked the file server - I don't have the manual handy in PDF. All I had was a user's guide. (pretty useless - "To load paper, remove paper cassette..") When I'm back at the office I'll check the shelf. I must have it in dead tree format. Some of the early HP manuals I have were spiral bound, would be hell to scan. Anyone have it in PDF for our friend? -Ian From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Jun 10 11:41:49 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 11:41:49 -0500 Subject: Good Composite->VGA converters for classic computers (& video games...) In-Reply-To: <484DF45B.6050006@msu.edu> References: <4841BCBA.1070109@msu.edu> <44050.71.139.37.220.1212343467.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <484BA66F.1020503@msu.edu> <484DA5F1.1070105@oldskool.org> <484DF45B.6050006@msu.edu> Message-ID: <484EAECD.2000304@oldskool.org> Josh Dersch wrote: > > Well, sure. I wasn't expecting the highest quality output for what I > paid (but I didn't _need_ that...). But I wasn't expecting it to be > unable to sync to half of my gear :). I'm sure there has to be a happy > medium between $30 and $20,000.... Ebay for old broadcast gear. A professional broadcast scan converter that is 10-12 years old should go for around $250, probably even less. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Tue Jun 10 12:01:55 2008 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 13:01:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: HP IIISi: "50 SERVICE" In-Reply-To: <529834.62965.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <529834.62965.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200806101704.NAA17893@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Gah. I just checked the file server - I don't have the manual handy > in PDF. [...]. When I'm back at the office I'll check the shelf. I > must have it in dead tree format. Well, as I did with the KA630 manual, if someone gets a dead-tree copy to me I can scan it. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mardy at voysys.com Tue Jun 10 12:11:26 2008 From: mardy at voysys.com (Marden P. Marshall) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 13:11:26 -0400 Subject: Epilogue Pantone or RAL reference for the blue color of the IMSAI In-Reply-To: <712981.80307.qm@web31606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <712981.80307.qm@web31606.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Jun 9, 2008, at 2:28 PM, charles habib wrote: > Hi everybody > finally i got the cover and base of my Imsai repaint here in > Switzerland. > For who > may be interested here are the colour references > Blue Cover; > NCS S 2050-B > (Europe) > Pantone Blue 740L > Grey Base > NCS S7502-B > Pantone cool > grey 11C > Both are powder coated with structure > Hope this will help > someone out there > Charles Habib Thanks for the color info, but I am having trouble finding any color chart references for the Pantone Blue 740L. -Mardy From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue Jun 10 14:03:46 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 16:03:46 -0300 Subject: HP IIISi: "50 SERVICE" References: <696686.14737.qm@web53307.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <05b201c8cb2d$10b0fae0$0102a8c0@portajara> BTW, I remember someone like me wrote an article on repairguide about that... http://www.repairfaq.org/samnew/printfaq/pcfsou1.htm has the text a.. a.. Take off the AC module, where almost all the CX engine problems are located :o) This is the aluminum "tower" besides the fuser assembly, and where the AC cable comes in. Dismantle everything, change the little little little heat accumulator (yep, it is so little that should be called "heat accumulator") from the black TRIAC besides the mains power connector, and put a good heatsink with heat paste there. Also, clean THOROUGHLY the upper fan assembly, because when it fails, it can make things hotter. Hot enough to melt the fuser gears. :o) Remember: ERROR 50 = TRIAC open. A TIC 226 fits the bill on place. Of course there are other causes for error 50. But I've never seen that in Brazil. From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Jun 10 14:16:46 2008 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 20:16:46 +0100 Subject: HP IIISi: "50 SERVICE" In-Reply-To: <804239.42485.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <804239.42485.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <484ED31E.4040106@philpem.me.uk> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Gah. I just checked the file server - I don't have the manual handy in PDF. > All I had was a user's guide. (pretty useless - "To load paper, remove > paper cassette..") When I'm back at the office I'll check the shelf. I must > have it in dead tree format. Some of the early HP manuals I have were > spiral bound, would be hell to scan. > > Anyone have it in PDF for our friend? I think I might have a copy on my fileserver somewhere... IIRC it came from one of the P2P networks (probably edonkey / emule) and is about 20MB or so. It certainly covers the LJ III, but I'm not sure if it covers the LJ IIIsi. It might take a while to find, no doubt it's somewhere in /share/public with the other uncategorised stuff... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 9 21:47:48 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 03:47:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: older EPROMs (was Re: Looking for 1Mx8 EPROMs (27C080 or 27C801)) In-Reply-To: <20080609232239.GB5189@usap.gov> from "Ethan Dicks" at Jun 9, 8 11:22:39 pm Message-ID: > > TI TMS2532 is NOT compatible with Intel 2732. > > *But* it _is_ pin-compatible with the MOS 2332 ROM, so is useful for I seem to rememebr there are 2 versions of the 2332 -- the 2332A and the 2332B. One is close to the 2732 pinout, the other to the 2532. There are also 2 versions of the 2364 I think. (I have an old Rockwell databook which shows these mask ROMs). I also recall that the active level of the enable (chip select) pins is mask-programmable on the mask ROMs. On EPROMs it's always active-low. One to watch for if you're buring your own... > the ROM sockets on dynamic PETs (2001-16N, 2001-32N, 3016, 3032, 4016, > 4032, 8032). > > When I see TMS2532s float by, I make sure to save them. They are a lot > less common than 2732s. > > Of course, you can use a pin-swapper to fit a 2732 into a PET, but if On the other hand, some programmers can program 2732s but not 2532s. In that case you might be better off using the former chip and making a daughterboard to swap the pins round in the machine. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 9 21:58:51 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 03:58:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP IIISi: "50 SERVICE" In-Reply-To: <017b01c8cb0a$2006fee0$0102a8c0@portajara> from "Alexandre Souza" at Jun 10, 8 11:54:05 am Message-ID: > > >I was printing on my IIISi tonight and, between jobs, it switched from > > working normally to displaying "50 SERVICE" (with the "50" flashing) > > and not accepting print jobs. > > This is one of the most common problem in the II and III series. Usually > a broken fusor lamp or problem in the AC Module. In the II/III it is ALWAYS > the small thyristor in the AC module. You can use a TIC106 in its place. Well ,there are at least 2 versions of that AC block, one of which uses a triac, not an SCR/thyristor... And that's not always the problem. A 'stock fault' here has been a fuser problem after warm-up, with the protection relay dropping out (the relay on the lower PCB in the AC block). This is controlled by the circuitry on the upper PCB, and the stock fault I've had (which took a long time to trace the first time) is one of the electrolytics there physically leaking, the electrolyte then causes a conductive path across the PCB, and really conmfuses the protection circuit (there's a couple of high-impedance nodes in that circuit). -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Jun 9 21:54:43 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 03:54:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP IIISi: "50 SERVICE" In-Reply-To: <200806100752.DAA15276@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Jun 10, 8 02:31:31 am Message-ID: > > I was printing on my IIISi tonight and, between jobs, it switched from > working normally to displaying "50 SERVICE" (with the "50" flashing) > and not accepting print jobs. I don;'t know the IIISi, but on all the HP (and Canon) laser printers I've worked on, error 50 is a fuser problem. Either the fuser got too hot, or more likely it didn't get hot enough. > Power cycling doesn't help. There is a protection circuit in these machines (certainly the ones I've worked on). If there's a fuser error, the machine will not work unless it's been turned off for soemthing like 15 minutes (this is so if the fuser has rteally got too hot, it's got time to cool down). There's a capacitor on the DC controller board you can discharge to clear this (very useful if you know the fuser is not too hot...), but I have no idea if it's the same on the IIISi, or where that capacitor is. Anyway, the most common cause of this is a problem with the fuser heater itself. On the printers Iv'e worked on, this is a tungsten-halogen bulb down the middle of one of the fuser rollers. If you extract the fuser assmebly, it's generally fairly obvious where the lamp connections are, and it's easy to test the lamp filament for continuity. Most of the time when you get this error, the lamp is open-circuit, you need to replace it. There's also a thermal swtich in series with the lamp inside the fuser. This isthe final protection method, if things go badly wrong this will cut the lamp power and prevent the thing seriosuly overheating. You can test this too, it should show a dead short. If all that's OK, then the proeblem is with the controller circuitry. I could easily talk you through the CX and SX stuff, I've worked on them, I've done component-level repair on them. But I suspect yours will be different. > I've done a little poking around, but haven't managed to find a service > manual for the silly thing. Bitsavers has only one file under The servie manual will certainly be a boardswapper guide, but it might show interconnections, etc. Have you tried the Australian HP museum? There are some printer service manuals there. -tony From bshannon at tiac.net Tue Jun 10 18:14:54 2008 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 19:14:54 -0400 Subject: Funny Tek 2445 scope problem References: Message-ID: <000601c8cb4f$caf751c0$6501a8c0@screamer> Its called a ground loop. This can be dangerous if there is nothing to limit the ground loop current. Is the Imsai and the scope plugged into the same properly grounded outlet? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeff Erwin" To: "Dave McGuire" ; "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Thursday, May 15, 2008 11:50 AM Subject: Re: Funny Tek 2445 scope problem > > Case solved (I think). It seems to matter where I ground the probe. I > pulled all of the boards out of the system, no change. I then grounded > the > probe to the middle finger of the voltage regulator on the board and the > sine wave went away. > > Very odd. > > > On 5/15/08 8:18 AM, "Dave McGuire" wrote: > >> On May 15, 2008, at 10:20 AM, Jeff Erwin wrote: >>> I purchased a used Tek 2445 scope which works well on both CH1 and >>> CH2. Both >>> 10x probes check out as well. I am working on getting an rs232 >>> interface >>> working, if I scope the TX signal from my terminal I get a clean >>> and synced >>> image on the scope on both channels. All is good. >>> >>> I am rebuiding an IMSAI 8080. The unit I have is working well, 48K >>> of RAM >>> all tested, I can enter programs through the front panel and run them. >>> Getting it to talk to my terminal program is the task at hand. >>> >>> Now comes the mystery. If I scope ANY bus line, chip lead on any >>> board, I >>> get a 60Hz sine wave that measures about 70 volts. Now, in my >>> logical head >>> I realize this can't be real, the IMSAI would not only not work but >>> would be >>> pouring smoke from every nook and cranny, bringing my wife running >>> with >>> claims of 'I told you so...'. >>> >>> So, what the hell? I have checked ground, I have checked the bus >>> lines, I >>> have checked the scope. I do have the active terminator card in >>> the last >>> slot and as I mentoned, the IMSAI works fine otherwise. >>> >>> Where am I picking up this 60hz sine wave? >> >> That sounds to me like a very nasty grounding problem. Be careful! >> >> -Dave >>> >> > > From tiggerlasv at aim.com Tue Jun 10 20:56:00 2008 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 21:56:00 -0400 Subject: Funny Tek 2445 scope problem Message-ID: <8CA997D6E883282-1730-1BBD@webmail-nb03.sysops.aol.com> Not ever having seen the internals of an Imsai, I obviously can't say anything even remotely definite. However, you may see this behavior on older electronics that have capacitors between line voltage and ground. (This was popular in tube stereos and TV's for many years.) Eventually, the capacitors would leak, and you'd get a low-current tingle when you touched the chassis. Very scary. Some surge supressor circuitry is designed with MOV's between Hot-and-Neutral, Hot-and-Ground, and Neutral-to-Ground. It may be possible that you have leakage in the MOV's, and your connection to ground is weak or missing. Since it's fairly common to tie the ground to the chassis, that COULD be a source of the 60hz wave you're seeing, whether the MOV's are inside your unit, or inside an attached power strip. I would check your electrical grounds first. Also check for power supply wires hitting the chassis, or even a cable with the insulation worn through. Is the power supply a switching unit, or a traditional linear power supply ? I have two laptop power supplies, made by different manufacturers. They are two-wire (ungrounded) plugs. When plugged into my laptop, both will give me a slight tingle when I touch the metal speaker grills on the laptop, and a source of ground. Yes, metal speaker grills. It's a 233Mhz Thinkpad. ;-) It may be something inherent in the design of the switching power supplies. It might be helpful to disconnect the power supply from the rest of the electronics, and see if you get any AC readings off of the outputs. T From lee at dot.geekdot.com Tue Jun 10 04:32:08 2008 From: lee at dot.geekdot.com (Lee Davison) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 11:32:08 +0200 (CEST) Subject: HP IIISi: "50 SERVICE" Message-ID: <4687.84.64.217.203.1213090328.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> > Anyone have the manual, or at least have some idea what "50 > SERVICE" means I need to do? "50 SERVICE" means the fuser is not up to temperature. This is usually one of three things, the fuser element, the thernal cutout or the fuser power supply has failed. The element and the cutout can be measured with a VOM and should be < 20 ohms. The easiest way to test the PSU is to swap it with a known good one if you have one. There is a power on timer that takes a long time to discharge so it can take turning the printer off for 20 minutes to clear this fault. Lee. From rmd10000000000 at hotmail.com Tue Jun 10 06:07:45 2008 From: rmd10000000000 at hotmail.com (R.MD) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 13:07:45 +0200 Subject: FFS: Syquest 44MB internal drive model SQ555 Message-ID: Hi Tom, How are you? Do you still have this? Is this a drive that takes a 44mb SyQuest Disk? Thanks, Richie McDermott FFS: Syquest 44MB internal drive model SQ555 Tom Uban uban at ubanproductions.com Wed Dec 22 15:21:47 CST 2004 * Previous message: wanted: Votrax PSS manual * Next message: mpf 1 manual please * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] _____ I have a Syquest 44MB internal drive, model SQ555, which came with an enclosure that I picked up. I don't know the status of the drive but it is free for the price of shipping to the first person to claim it... --tom _____ size=2 width="100%" align=center> * Previous message: wanted: Votrax PSS manual * Next message: mpf 1 manual please * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] _____ More information about the cctech mailing list From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 09:22:41 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 07:22:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: invading varmints In-Reply-To: <200806081855.15991.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <566460.91936.qm@web65506.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> do you mean differential oil? --- "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: And then at one point I got > given a jug of "gear oil" > (the sort of stuff you'd put in the rear end > "punkin") and it had a hole in > the jug, so I had to be careful how I put it in the > back of the truck, > where it's been ever since. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 09:25:14 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 07:25:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: invading varmints In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <892990.81730.qm@web65511.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> friend got bit in Florida. About the same time his aunt got bit in Long Island...I would't count on there being many places they couldn't pop up... --- Eric J Korpela wrote: > On Sun, Jun 8, 2008 at 1:07 PM, > wrote: > > > > > >> Thank your lucky stars that you didn't suffer the > fate of one of our > >> customers several years ago. He'd pulled out his > Zorba from storage, > >> opened the door of the A: drive and was bitten by > several irritated > >> brown recluse spiders that had decided to call > his luggable "home". > > > > Kind of odd that he was bitten by "several" > spiders, > > merely by opening a disk drive door. Recluses > aren't > > at all aggressive, and generally don't go out of > their way to attack. > > It seems highly unsual that they would "charge out > in numbers", > > and bite. But, anything is possible. > > Did they manage to salvage his hand? > > > > (See link showing pictures of what a SINGLE bite > will do. > > Note: These pictures are VERY graphic.) > > I didn't see the initial post on this one, but I > would also be > surprised because recluses do tend to be very > reclusive. The natural > response to opening a disk drive door would be for > them to go deeper > into the machine. You're far more likely to get a > brown recluse bite > from somewhere where escape is more difficult. I > understand sock > drawers are a good place to get bitten when you get > home from > vacation. > > I also didn't see the locale on this one which does > make a big > difference. No effect from the bites isn't a big > issue because > estimates are that about 85% of brown recluse bites > go unnoticed. > Necrosis is a fairly rare side effect of brown > recluse bites. It's > hard to pin those numbers down because in many parts > of the country > any unexplained necrosis is automatically ascribed > to brown recluse > bites (including parts of the country where brown > recluses have never > been sighted). > > You'd be surprised how many claims there are of > brown recluse > sightings in California. Despite rumors to the > contrary there is no > evidence of breeding populations of brown recluses > in California. Of > course if you stack a crate of fresh Georgia peaches > on one of your > machines, any spiders present could take up > residence. However the > native spiders are pretty well equipped to > outcompete similar > non-native species. Many CA sightings are of desert > recluse, but most > are just another random species of spider that > happens to be brown. > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 09:28:37 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 07:28:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: invading varmints In-Reply-To: <484D524A.5040408@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <787310.83006.qm@web65511.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- Pete Turnbull wrote: > He probably meant "hyperbaric" -- high pressure, > used for such things as > decompression sickness in divers. No rather that what I meant. A couple hours after I hit send I realized I had goofed... From jrr at flippers.com Tue Jun 10 11:13:23 2008 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 09:13:23 -0700 Subject: HP IIISi: "50 SERVICE" In-Reply-To: <200806100752.DAA15276@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200806100752.DAA15276@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <484EA823.6000805@flippers.com> der Mouse wrote: > I was printing on my IIISi tonight and, between jobs, it switched from > working normally to displaying "50 SERVICE" (with the "50" flashing) > and not accepting print jobs. > > Power cycling doesn't help. > > I've done a little poking around, but haven't managed to find a service > manual for the silly thing. Bitsavers has only one file under > hp/printers/, and that one doesn't cover the IIISi. Google finds > another file which covers a few III printers, but not the IIISi. > > Anyone have the manual, or at least have some idea what "50 SERVICE" > means I need to do? > > (What is it with this week and hardware? I'm beginning to feel as > though any hardware I try to use this week breaks.) > > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > > > Check the fusor - bad connection or blown light bulb. If it does not reach operating temperature this is the message you get... John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From abacos_98 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 11:26:40 2008 From: abacos_98 at yahoo.com (Brian Roth) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 09:26:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HP IIISi: "50 SERVICE" In-Reply-To: <529834.62965.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <696686.14737.qm@web53307.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Dont have a manual but I used to work on these years ago. 50 service usually means either a bad fuser or AC (high voltage) power supply module needs to be replaced IIRC. Brian. --- Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > --- On Tue, 6/10/08, Mr Ian Primus > wrote: > > > > Anyone have the manual, or at least have some > idea > > what > > > "50 SERVICE" > > > means I need to do? > > > > I think I have a PDF manual, I'll see if I can dig > it > > up. Contact me off list. > > > > Gah. I just checked the file server - I don't have > the manual handy in PDF. All I had was a user's > guide. (pretty useless - "To load paper, remove > paper cassette..") When I'm back at the office I'll > check the shelf. I must have it in dead tree format. > Some of the early HP manuals I have were spiral > bound, would be hell to scan. > > Anyone have it in PDF for our friend? > > -Ian > From jrr at flippers.com Tue Jun 10 11:29:49 2008 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 09:29:49 -0700 Subject: HP IIISi: "50 SERVICE" In-Reply-To: <017b01c8cb0a$2006fee0$0102a8c0@portajara> References: <200806100752.DAA15276@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <017b01c8cb0a$2006fee0$0102a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <484EABFD.4020204@flippers.com> Alexandre Souza wrote: >> I was printing on my IIISi tonight and, between jobs, it switched from >> working normally to displaying "50 SERVICE" (with the "50" flashing) >> and not accepting print jobs. > > This is one of the most common problem in the II and III series. > Usually a broken fusor lamp or problem in the AC Module. In the II/III > it is ALWAYS the small thyristor in the AC module. You can use a > TIC106 in its place. Open the printer, fool the door sensor and > measure 120 VAC (or would it be VDC?) on the fuser's terminals. If you > don't have the 120 V(d?)AC, the AC module is broken, just change the > main thyristor. > > There should be a service manual on emule... > > > I do have the troubleshooting guide "HP LaserJet 1 1D II IID III IIID IIP IIP Plus IIIP 2000.pdf" if you can't find it elsewhere. I downloaded it back in '04. John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Jun 10 12:59:10 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 10:59:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: invading varmints In-Reply-To: <484E9C66.8020305@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <357180.59076.qm@web65508.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> --- Doc Shipley wrote: > Killing bugs down here is like bailing out the > ocean with a coffee > mug. I just want them elsewhere before I arrive. > :) Besides it's mean! Unless they're real nasty. I think I would opt to at least trap something like a brown recluse (if it seemed practical). I have no qualms about killing skeeters or fleas or ticks though. Bigger (and less parasitic) bugs are much harder for me to kill. Yeah as long as they're not bothering me, I won't bother them *snifful wipe* From kweiler at adobe.com Tue Jun 10 17:20:57 2008 From: kweiler at adobe.com (Kevin Weiler) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 15:20:57 -0700 Subject: Terminals ( was Re: HP 2000F' ) Message-ID: Jay West - I found your 18 month old post via a Google search and wondered if you had manuals for the Micro-Term ACT-IV. I hope the email address is still valid. I have an ACT-IV but have misplaced the manual and thought it would be nice to have the complete package. Thanks! - Kevin Weiler Terminals ( was Re: HP 2000F' ) Jay West jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Dec 22 16:38:25 CST 2006 ________________________________ Richard wrote... > What's an ACT terminal? There was a terminal manufacturer located in Saint Louis, MO around the 70's & 80's called "MicroTerm". They made quite a number of terminals that were popular across the US. As it turns out, the folks at MicroTerm had a relationship with my high school (St. Louis University High) such that they often delivered prototype and/or beta terminals free of charge or at a reduced price so that we could test them and give them feedback, find bugs, etc. Some of the terminals they made were called ACT I, ACT II, ACT IV, ACT Va, MIME 1, MIME 2, MIME 340, MIME 420, and Ergo 2000. I'm sure there were others, but those are the ones I have a manual or sales sheet or some other specific proof that they existed. I know for sure that our high school had an ACT IV as the system console (it replaced an ASR 33), and I believe the user terminals were ACT II, ACT V, and MIME 1's. In addition to these microterm terminals, we also had four LA120's and a MiniBee 4. The ACT IV was unlike the others. It was a terminal but had no crt. It had 75ohm video out that was typically hooked to a small 9" monitor. It was available assembled or as a kit. I happen to have one of these - working. With a 9" sanyo monitor, user manual, and service manual with schematics, theory of operation, etc. I would give my left arm for a Mime I or Mime II, or a Minibee 4. Oh, some time ago I looked up the VP of Engineering for MicroTerm. He sent me a nice email talking about his time at MicroTerm and he was glad someone still remembered them and their terminals. He seemed a bit surprised. I asked if he had any hardware or documentation left over, he said no. When I picked up a bunch of stuff a few years back from my high school, I got multiple copies of many of the MicroTerm manuals. I've tried seeing if there's interest in them but no one seems to want 'em. I also have a manual for the MiniBee 4. Jay West From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Jun 11 01:22:03 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 23:22:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: invading varmints In-Reply-To: <566460.91936.qm@web65506.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <566460.91936.qm@web65506.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Jun 2008, Chris M wrote: > do you mean differential oil? >From whence was it derived? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From asholz at topinform.de Wed Jun 11 01:31:28 2008 From: asholz at topinform.de (Andreas Holz) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 08:31:28 +0200 Subject: PDP 11/34a Console dead, powersupply problem? Message-ID: <484F7140.3010905@topinform.de> Hello all, just tried to power up one of my 11/34a and found it's console dead: Power on LED and adresse display are not lit. The PSU fans are running. Using the field maintenance print set for the 11/34a and docs provided at bitsavers I checked the voltages at the backplane and found the +5V Voltage seems to be out of range. Are there any docs, advices and procedures to check an repair a H7441 Powersupply? Looking at the bottom side of the PSU untit there are three PSU's, two H7441 with a red LED, the LED of one H7441 is lit, and a H755 with a bulb, which is not lit. What is the meaning of these LED and bulbs? Andreas From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Jun 11 10:03:22 2008 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 17:03:22 +0200 (CEST) Subject: PDP 11/34a Console dead, powersupply problem? In-Reply-To: <484F7140.3010905@topinform.de> References: <484F7140.3010905@topinform.de> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Jun 2008, Andreas Holz wrote: > Are there any docs, advices and procedures to check an repair a H7441 > Powersupply? The docs are in the 11/34 printset. The usual fault (at least with our DEC power supply bricks) is the big capacitor having a short and thus blowing the fuse. Either replace the capacitor or "repair" it with a high current pulse which burns away the short. > Looking at the bottom side of the PSU untit there are three PSU's, two > H7441 with a red LED, the LED of one H7441 is lit, and a H755 with a bulb, > which is not lit. What is the meaning of these LED and bulbs? The LED (or light bulb) is connected to the output to indicate the presence of the output voltage. The light bulbs are usually broken; I replace them with LEDs when I have to repair these power supplies. Christian From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Jun 11 10:03:01 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 11:03:01 -0400 Subject: invading varmints In-Reply-To: <566460.91936.qm@web65506.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <566460.91936.qm@web65506.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200806111103.01732.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 10 June 2008 10:22, Chris M wrote: > do you mean differential oil? Yeah, though "gear oil" is what it says on the label... It's pretty heavy stuff, 80W or 90W or something like that. > --- "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: > > And then at one point I got given a jug of "gear oil" (the sort of stuff > you'd put in the rear end "punkin") and it had a hole in the jug, so I > had to be careful how I put it in the back of the truck, where it's been > ever since. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 11 11:30:03 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 09:30:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: invading varmints In-Reply-To: <566460.91936.qm@web65506.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <566460.91936.qm@web65506.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20080611092813.O98198@shell.lmi.net> The smell of 90W will keep most critters away, particularly single women. They now have SYNTHETIC 90W! But they haven't yet mastered how to synthesize the overwhelming stink. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com On Tue, 10 Jun 2008, Chris M wrote: > do you mean differential oil? > > --- "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: > > And then at one point I got > > given a jug of "gear oil" > > (the sort of stuff you'd put in the rear end > > "punkin") and it had a hole in > > the jug, so I had to be careful how I put it in the > > back of the truck, > > where it's been ever since. From rickb at bensene.com Wed Jun 11 13:26:33 2008 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 11:26:33 -0700 Subject: Apple Lisa References: <566460.91936.qm@web65506.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <200806111103.01732.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: Hello, all, I know of the whereabouts of a known working Apple Lisa computer in my local area. I am not sure yet what model it is, but it apparently is in very good condition, and works perfectly. I'm waiting for a response from the owner on the specifics in terms of what model it is, and what peripherals and accessories are available. The owner of the machine is trying to figure out what it might be worth. I know that a Lisa sold on eBay for $10K back in '94, but there just isn't much out there in terms of sales of such machines. Anyone out there have any idea what such a machine might be worth on the open market (e.g., eBay?) I wish I could get the machine for myself, but my pockets are empty. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Please reply off-list to rickb bensene com Thanks, Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum (and some computers too!) http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jun 11 13:55:43 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 11:55:43 -0700 Subject: Apple Lisa Message-ID: <48501FAF.5090105@bitsavers.org> > I know that a Lisa sold on eBay for $10K back in '94 - eBay didn't exist in 1994 - only a Lisa I (with twiggy drives) would go for that much From rickb at bensene.com Wed Jun 11 15:54:22 2008 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 13:54:22 -0700 Subject: Apple Lisa References: <566460.91936.qm@web65506.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><200806111103.01732.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: Please apologize for my typo in my original message -- the $10K Lisa sold on eBay in 2004, not 1994. Rick Bensene From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 10 21:43:14 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 03:43:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: PDP 11/34a Console dead, powersupply problem? In-Reply-To: <484F7140.3010905@topinform.de> from "Andreas Holz" at Jun 11, 8 08:31:28 am Message-ID: > > Hello all, > > just tried to power up one of my 11/34a and found it's console dead: > Power on LED and adresse display are not lit. > > The PSU fans are running. Using the field maintenance print set for the > 11/34a and docs provided at bitsavers I checked the voltages at the > backplane and found the +5V Voltage seems to be out of range. What voltage are you getting there? > > Are there any docs, advices and procedures to check an repair a H7441 > Powersupply? The H7441 is a switching regualtor which takes in about 20-30V AC from the large transformer in the middle of the PSU chassis and gives out 5V. It has overcurrent protection (of course), so a short somwhere else in the machine may cause the supply to shut down. These supplies will, in my experience, run without any load. Maybe try unplugging the backplane power conenctors (the 6 pin and 15 pin mate-n-lock ones) and seeing what you get then. > > Looking at the bottom side of the PSU untit there are three PSU's, two > H7441 with a red LED, the LED of one H7441 is lit, and a H755 with a > bulb, which is not lit. What is the meaning of these LED and bulbs? The indicators are simply connected across the ouytput of the PSU block (from the output rail to ground). If it's lit, it means that block is giving out _something_. If it's out, then either there's no output, or the bulb has failed (!). -tony From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Jun 11 18:59:57 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 15:59:57 -0800 Subject: Apple Lisa References: <566460.91936.qm@web65506.mail.ac4.yahoo.com><200806111103.01732.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <485066FD.BA5379EB@cs.ubc.ca> Reminds me a few years ago an acquaintance showed me a Lisa he had received from somewhere (long before the $/collectible value took off). It was not functional and off-gassing from the NiCd batteries was visibly corroding one of the main PCBs. I tried to convince him it would be a good idea to cut the batteries out promptly, to at least keep things from getting worse til the time he took a more serious look at restoring it, but he didn't want to remove them. Don't know what became of the unit. (Ho hum). From vze323vd at verizon.net Wed Jun 11 05:29:51 2008 From: vze323vd at verizon.net (Greg Manuel (V)) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 06:29:51 -0400 Subject: HP IIISi: "50 SERVICE" In-Reply-To: <696686.14737.qm@web53307.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In addition to the causes mentioned, I have also had this error show up if the unit is placed too close to an A/C unit or vent. This can also prevent the fuser from coming up to temp properly. Greg Manuel http://www.gmconsulting.net "People are more violently opposed to fur than leather because it's safer to harass rich women than motorcycle gangs." - Unknown > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Brian Roth > Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 12:27 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Re: HP IIISi: "50 SERVICE" > > > Dont have a manual but I used to work on these years > ago. 50 service usually means either a bad fuser or AC > (high voltage) power supply module needs to be > replaced IIRC. > > Brian. > > --- Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > > > > --- On Tue, 6/10/08, Mr Ian Primus > > wrote: > > > > > > Anyone have the manual, or at least have some > > idea > > > what > > > > "50 SERVICE" > > > > means I need to do? > > > > > > I think I have a PDF manual, I'll see if I can dig > > it > > > up. Contact me off list. > > > > > > > Gah. I just checked the file server - I don't have > > the manual handy in PDF. All I had was a user's > > guide. (pretty useless - "To load paper, remove > > paper cassette..") When I'm back at the office I'll > > check the shelf. I must have it in dead tree format. > > Some of the early HP manuals I have were spiral > > bound, would be hell to scan. > > > > Anyone have it in PDF for our friend? > > > > -Ian > > > > From oldcomps at verizon.net Wed Jun 11 10:55:12 2008 From: oldcomps at verizon.net (Frank Helvey) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 08:55:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone interested in early to mid 90s Mac software? Message-ID: <798294.83997.qm@web84101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> I've got a collection of various software packages for various Mac flavors that I need to get rid of. If there's any interest in such things I'll put together a list. -- Frank ------------------------------------------------------------------------- C. Frank Helvey email: cfhelvey at yahoo dot com President home phone: 540.947.2526 Montvale Software Services Inc work phone: 540.947.5364 Blue Ridge, VA 24064 cell phone: 540.529.3740 Classic Comps Email: oldcomps at verizon dot net From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Jun 12 01:57:23 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 07:57:23 +0100 Subject: invading varmints In-Reply-To: <484D0755.16009.8895FB@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200806091700.m59H0QPQ024486@dewey.classiccmp.org> <484D0755.16009.8895FB@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1213253843.3700.5.camel@elric> On Mon, 2008-06-09 at 10:35 -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Date: Sun, 08 Jun 2008 16:07:31 -0400 > > From: tiggerlasv > > > Kind of odd that he was bitten by "several" spiders, > > merely by opening a disk drive door. Recluses aren't > > at all aggressive, and generally don't go out of their way to attack. > > It seems highly unsual that they would "charge out in numbers", > > and bite. But, anything is possible. > > Well, I never met the guy face-to-face and am simply recounting what > was told to me by him. We've got spiders all over the place here and > generally I've never had any problems with them--they mostly try to > flee. On the other hand, I shudder when I think about yellowjackets > and stepping on a nest--but I've never run into electronic gear > infested by the nasty buggers. Makes me glad I live in the UK, where we don't have any particularly nasty insects. Although midges can be a bit bad in the summer... Gordon From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Jun 12 03:31:07 2008 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 04:31:07 -0400 Subject: Anyone interested in early to mid 90s Mac software? References: <798294.83997.qm@web84101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <000b01c8cc66$a9a459b0$c600a8c0@game> I am interested in older mac software 68K and early PPC, what do you have? TZ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Frank Helvey" To: "cctech list" Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 11:55 AM Subject: Anyone interested in early to mid 90s Mac software? > I've got a collection of various software packages for various Mac flavors > that I need to get rid of. If there's any interest in such things I'll > put together a list. > > -- Frank > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------- > C. Frank Helvey email: cfhelvey at yahoo dot com > President home phone: 540.947.2526 > Montvale Software Services Inc work phone: 540.947.5364 > Blue Ridge, VA 24064 cell phone: 540.529.3740 > > Classic Comps Email: oldcomps at verizon dot net From steve at cosam.org Thu Jun 12 04:02:54 2008 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 11:02:54 +0200 Subject: Fixing a DEC Letterwriter (LA100) Message-ID: <95838e090806120202s26973736ybc9f26a1f8b7b8a2@mail.gmail.com> Hello all, I have a half-dead Letterwriter 100 KSR here I'd like to get working again. I get a short buzz from the paper feed motor at power-up but instead of flashing all it's indicator LEDs, both CTS and LINE stay illuminated. There's no carriage movement and the keyboard does nothing either. The basic vital signs are OK but I'm stuck without a service manual or schematics. Does anyone have access to these docs? I'd of course also be interested to hear of any common problems and/or things to check before I dive into all-out mending mode... Cheers, -- Steve Maddison http://www.cosam.org/ "The great thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from." From asholz at topinform.de Thu Jun 12 05:38:14 2008 From: asholz at topinform.de (Andreas Holz) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 12:38:14 +0200 Subject: PDP 11/34a Console dead, powersupply problem? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4850FC96.9010507@topinform.de> Tony and Christian, thank you for your advices. The measured voltage is about 1,5V. I'll pull all boards and measure again before trying to dismount the PSU (Its the middle one). Andreas >> Hello all, >> >> just tried to power up one of my 11/34a and found it's console dead: >> Power on LED and adresse display are not lit. >> >> The PSU fans are running. Using the field maintenance print set for the >> 11/34a and docs provided at bitsavers I checked the voltages at the >> backplane and found the +5V Voltage seems to be out of range. >> > > What voltage are you getting there? > > >> Are there any docs, advices and procedures to check an repair a H7441 >> Powersupply? >> > > The H7441 is a switching regualtor which takes in about 20-30V AC from > the large transformer in the middle of the PSU chassis and gives out 5V. > It has overcurrent protection (of course), so a short somwhere else in > the machine may cause the supply to shut down. > > These supplies will, in my experience, run without any load. Maybe try > unplugging the backplane power conenctors (the 6 pin and 15 pin > mate-n-lock ones) and seeing what you get then. > > > >> Looking at the bottom side of the PSU untit there are three PSU's, two >> H7441 with a red LED, the LED of one H7441 is lit, and a H755 with a >> bulb, which is not lit. What is the meaning of these LED and bulbs? >> > > The indicators are simply connected across the ouytput of the PSU block > (from the output rail to ground). If it's lit, it means that block is > giving out _something_. If it's out, then either there's no output, or > the bulb has failed (!). > > -tony > > > From mikewalder at yahoo.com Thu Jun 12 07:16:05 2008 From: mikewalder at yahoo.com (Mike Walder) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 05:16:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM PC/XT/AT/PS/2s and old Apricot kit up for grabs Message-ID: <102221.62701.qm@web51909.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hello fellow Computer Collectors, I have recently got married and moved house, and now no longer have the space for my computer collection: http://www.mikewalder.com/mcm.? I have found new owners for my HP and Digital kit, but still have much of the rest left.? This is all now sitting in storage, costing me ???, and the preasure to move it all is getting greater.? So, the offer is there.? If anybody on this list would like to come down to Wokingham (UK) and collect some or all of the machines, I'll be glad that they are not going on the scrapheap. I have everything on "Mike's Computer Museum" website, except the DEC, HP, Merlin, Sirius, Altos?or Exorcet stuff, I think.? But to summarize I have a large collection of IBM equipment including PCs, PC/XTs, ATs, XT/286, PS/2 model 30 (8086 ISA), model 50 (286 MCA), 55sx (316sx 16 MCA), 60 (286 MCA tower), and 80 (386DX MCA tower).?? I also have some ACT?Apricot stuff.? Drop me a mail directly at mikewalder at yahoo.com if you are interested.? I am after no money, just the willpower and time to come and collect it, and the warm feeling that they are going to someone who will make use of them. Regards, Mike Walder. From mikewalder at yahoo.com Thu Jun 12 07:16:03 2008 From: mikewalder at yahoo.com (Mike Walder) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 05:16:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM PC/XT/AT/PS/2s and old Apricot kit up for grabs Message-ID: <695606.61678.qm@web51901.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hello fellow Computer Collectors, I have recently got married and moved house, and now no longer have the space for my computer collection: http://www.mikewalder.com/mcm.? I have found new owners for my HP and Digital kit, but still have much of the rest left.? This is all now sitting in storage, costing me ???, and the preasure to move it all is getting greater.? So, the offer is there.? If anybody on this list would like to come down to Wokingham (UK) and collect some or all of the machines, I'll be glad that they are not going on the scrapheap. I have everything on "Mike's Computer Museum" website, except the DEC, HP, Merlin, Sirius, Altos?or Exorcet stuff, I think.? But to summarize I have a large collection of IBM equipment including PCs, PC/XTs, ATs, XT/286, PS/2 model 30 (8086 ISA), model 50 (286 MCA), 55sx (316sx 16 MCA), 60 (286 MCA tower), and 80 (386DX MCA tower).?? I also have some ACT?Apricot stuff.? Drop me a mail directly at mikewalder at yahoo.com if you are interested.? I am after no money, just the willpower and time to come and collect it, and the warm feeling that they are going to someone who will make use of them. Regards, Mike Walder. From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Thu Jun 12 09:03:48 2008 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 10:03:48 -0400 Subject: Anyone interested in early to mid 90s Mac software? In-Reply-To: <000b01c8cc66$a9a459b0$c600a8c0@game> References: <798294.83997.qm@web84101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <000b01c8cc66$a9a459b0$c600a8c0@game> Message-ID: <4affc5e0806120703j69df9988yccf9c387d2e98d1@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 4:31 AM, Teo Zenios wrote: > I am interested in older mac software 68K and early PPC, what do you have? > > TZ Ditto, though 68k for me only. In particular, I am looking for a copy of the original Mac Microsoft Basic - I have the manual and original disk, but the disk is so worn out, there are visible rings (deep ones) on the surface of the disk. And hey, who wouldn't like to develop software on the original 128k? Joe. From ray at arachelian.com Thu Jun 12 09:04:26 2008 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 10:04:26 -0400 Subject: Apple Lisa In-Reply-To: References: <566460.91936.qm@web65506.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <200806111103.01732.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <48512CEA.3020402@arachelian.com> It depends on several factors. If it's a Lisa 1, it can fetch 10K, if it's a working Lisa 2, anywhere from $500-$1000 depending on condition and what else comes with it. Is there a hard drive? Is it a Widget? Is it a Profile? Is it one of the MacWorks compatible-only ones? Does it have the 3A ROM which lowers its value? Any (original) software? Any manuals? Is the case the original white, or has it yellowed? Does it have an original mouse, or does it have one of the Mac+ ones? Does the keyboard have the pull-out cards? Most importantly, were the NiCAD batteries removed if it's not a 2/10? If not there could have been a lot of damage from leakage. see: http://lisafaq.sunder.net/lisafaq-hw-io_batteries.html Rick Bensene wrote: > Hello, all, > > I know of the whereabouts of a known working Apple Lisa computer in my local area. I am not sure yet what model it is, but it apparently is in very good condition, and works perfectly. I'm waiting for a response from the owner on the specifics in terms of what model it is, and what peripherals and accessories are available. > > The owner of the machine is trying to figure out what it might be worth. I know that a Lisa sold on eBay for $10K back in '94, but there just isn't much out there in terms of sales of such machines. > > Anyone out there have any idea what such a machine might be worth on the open market (e.g., eBay?) > > I wish I could get the machine for myself, but my pockets are empty. > > Any help would be greatly appreciated. Please reply off-list to rickb bensene com > > Thanks, > Rick Bensene > The Old Calculator Museum (and some computers too!) > http://oldcalculatormuseum.com > From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Thu Jun 12 09:44:13 2008 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 10:44:13 -0400 Subject: Anyone interested in early to mid 90s Mac software? In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0806120703j69df9988yccf9c387d2e98d1@mail.gmail.com> References: <798294.83997.qm@web84101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <000b01c8cc66$a9a459b0$c600a8c0@game> <4affc5e0806120703j69df9988yccf9c387d2e98d1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <5f7d1b0e0806120744p79d9e79aqe1decf78a589eae1@mail.gmail.com> I might have a copy of the original Microsoft Basic for Mac - along with the manuals and everything. I'll fire up the Mac and build some disk images. I have a huge cache of mid-90's MacOS office software that I'm slowly imaging - Wingz, Filemaker, etc... On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 10:03 AM, Joachim Thiemann < joachim.thiemann at gmail.com> wrote: > On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 4:31 AM, Teo Zenios wrote: > > I am interested in older mac software 68K and early PPC, what do you > have? > > > > TZ > > Ditto, though 68k for me only. In particular, I am looking for a copy > of the original Mac Microsoft Basic - I have the manual and original > disk, but the disk is so worn out, there are visible rings (deep ones) > on the surface of the disk. > > And hey, who wouldn't like to develop software on the original 128k? > > Joe. > From vrs at msn.com Thu Jun 12 10:33:52 2008 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 08:33:52 -0700 Subject: H7821 Power Supply Message-ID: I recently acquired an H7821-00 power supply, and I'm wondering if has any technical drawings or specifications for it? Or at least a pinout for the 14-pin connector? Thanks, Vince From brad at heeltoe.com Thu Jun 12 11:43:21 2008 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 12:43:21 -0400 Subject: sunos sources? (pre solaris) Message-ID: <2970.1213289001@mini> I know this is probably the wrong place to ask, but I'll claim sunos is vintage, or at least classic :-) Anyone know anything about old sunos sources, like sunos 2.0, or 4.1? Since solaris is now more "open", I wondered if sunos might also be. I keep fiddling with booting sunos 2.0 on the sun2 emulator. It's close - I got a banner at one point but still won't go. I'd love to look at the code where it probes the multibus... -brad From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Jun 12 13:16:01 2008 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 14:16:01 -0400 Subject: Anyone interested in early to mid 90s Mac software? References: <798294.83997.qm@web84101.mail.mud.yahoo.com><000b01c8cc66$a9a459b0$c600a8c0@game> <4affc5e0806120703j69df9988yccf9c387d2e98d1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <002301c8ccb8$5ee87300$c600a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Joachim Thiemann" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 10:03 AM Subject: Re: Anyone interested in early to mid 90s Mac software? > On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 4:31 AM, Teo Zenios wrote: >> I am interested in older mac software 68K and early PPC, what do you >> have? >> >> TZ > > Ditto, though 68k for me only. In particular, I am looking for a copy > of the original Mac Microsoft Basic - I have the manual and original > disk, but the disk is so worn out, there are visible rings (deep ones) > on the surface of the disk. > > And hey, who wouldn't like to develop software on the original 128k? > > Joe. Is that Microsoft Quickbasic for Mac (I think there was only one)? Anyway I have a copy of that app and there are two disks, one is a program disk and the other is an examples disk. If this is what you need let me know, I have them imaged already. TZ From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Jun 12 13:14:20 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 14:14:20 -0400 Subject: Apple Lisa Message-ID: <01C8CC96.C741D440@host-208-72-122-83.dyn.295.ca> Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 13:54:22 -0700 From: "Rick Bensene" Subject: RE: Apple Lisa >Please apologize for my typo in my original message -- the $10K Lisa sold on eBay in 2004, not 1994. >Rick Bensene ---- Hrmph! I don't see why *we* need to apologize... m From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Jun 12 13:15:30 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 14:15:30 -0400 Subject: Fixing a DEC Letterwriter (LA100) Message-ID: <01C8CC96.C823A8C0@host-208-72-122-83.dyn.295.ca> ---------Original Message: From: "Steve Maddison" Subject: Fixing a DEC Letterwriter (LA100) Hello all, I have a half-dead Letterwriter 100 KSR here I'd like to get working again. I get a short buzz from the paper feed motor at power-up but instead of flashing all it's indicator LEDs, both CTS and LINE stay illuminated. There's no carriage movement and the keyboard does nothing either. The basic vital signs are OK but I'm stuck without a service manual or schematics. Does anyone have access to these docs? I'd of course also be interested to hear of any common problems and/or things to check before I dive into all-out mending mode... Cheers, -- Steve Maddison http://www.cosam.org/ ----------Reply: Can't suggest where to start checking but I do have several RO LA100s awaiting the trip to the scrapper, in case I can help with any non-kbd parts before they go. I do also have the tech manual somewhere; unfortunately IIRC it's on 17" paper so I can't scan it. I believe Tony also has a copy and more knowledge/experience than I; maybe he has some suggestions. m From steve at cosam.org Thu Jun 12 13:54:19 2008 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 20:54:19 +0200 Subject: Fixing a DEC Letterwriter (LA100) In-Reply-To: <01C8CC96.C823A8C0@host-208-72-122-83.dyn.295.ca> References: <01C8CC96.C823A8C0@host-208-72-122-83.dyn.295.ca> Message-ID: <95838e090806121154h45a9f2dbod4f8bd4ecf89b4cd@mail.gmail.com> 2008/6/12 M H Stein : > Can't suggest where to start checking but I do have several RO LA100s > awaiting the trip to the scrapper, in case I can help with any non-kbd parts > before they go. I may take you up on that if repairing the existing bits is going to be messy. I could definitely use some of the plastic studs that hold the case together - unfortunately I only figured out that you're only meant to remove the centre part after persuading the entire thing out with a screwdriver... > I do also have the tech manual somewhere; unfortunately IIRC it's on 17" > paper so I can't scan it. I have since found the full print set on vt100.net, so I'm all set on that front. I've started tracing back from the logic controlling the LINE and CTS indicators but haven't found anything obviously wrong as yet. I have however read some funny-looking voltages off the 7406 in this part of the circuit: 11.something volts while the datasheet says 30. Could of course be down to my test equipment as I'm limited to a basic digital multimeter at the moment. Cheers, -- Steve Maddison http://www.cosam.org/ "Hardware: (n.) the parts of a computer you can kick." From dgahling at hotmail.com Thu Jun 12 14:28:25 2008 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 15:28:25 -0400 Subject: sunos sources? (pre solaris) In-Reply-To: <2970.1213289001@mini> References: <2970.1213289001@mini> Message-ID: sunos is not open source. I have a copy of 1.1 around somewhere... :) ---------------------------------------- > From: brad at heeltoe.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 12:43:21 -0400 > Subject: sunos sources? (pre solaris) > > > I know this is probably the wrong place to ask, but I'll claim sunos is > vintage, or at least classic :-) > > Anyone know anything about old sunos sources, like sunos 2.0, or 4.1? > > Since solaris is now more "open", I wondered if sunos might also be. > > I keep fiddling with booting sunos 2.0 on the sun2 emulator. It's close > - I got a banner at one point but still won't go. I'd love to look at > the code where it probes the multibus... > > -brad _________________________________________________________________ Try Chicktionary, a game that tests how many words you can form from the letters given. Find this and more puzzles at Live Search Games! http://g.msn.ca/ca55/207 From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Jun 12 16:19:58 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 16:19:58 -0500 Subject: Silly uses for stepper motors Message-ID: <485192FE.9000607@oldskool.org> Okay, so I saw this today: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4SCSGRVAQE It's a video of a floppy disk drive playing music by screwing with the stepper motor. It is my understanding that the video was a hardware hack, but it got me thinking... For those who know floppy drives well, do you think such a thing could be possible via IBM PC floppy controller software calls only? Or is a hardware hack required to generate the right frequencies? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 12 16:29:53 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 14:29:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Silly uses for stepper motors In-Reply-To: <485192FE.9000607@oldskool.org> References: <485192FE.9000607@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20080612142743.O62517@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 12 Jun 2008, Jim Leonard wrote: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4SCSGRVAQE > It's a video of a floppy disk drive playing music by screwing with the > stepper motor. It is my understanding that the video was a hardware > hack, but it got me thinking... For those who know floppy drives well, > do you think such a thing could be possible via IBM PC floppy controller > software calls only? Or is a hardware hack required to generate the > right frequencies? . . . but think what you could do with the stepper of an SA400 (or SA390 (Apple)) Run it backwards and it will talk about billg From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Jun 12 17:03:08 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 16:03:08 -0600 Subject: Silly uses for stepper motors In-Reply-To: <20080612142743.O62517@shell.lmi.net> References: <485192FE.9000607@oldskool.org> <20080612142743.O62517@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <48519D1C.3080004@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 12 Jun 2008, Jim Leonard wrote: > >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4SCSGRVAQE >> It's a video of a floppy disk drive playing music by screwing with the >> stepper motor. It is my understanding that the video was a hardware >> hack, but it got me thinking... For those who know floppy drives well, >> do you think such a thing could be possible via IBM PC floppy controller >> software calls only? Or is a hardware hack required to generate the >> right frequencies? >> > > . . . but think what you could do with the stepper of an SA400 > (or SA390 (Apple)) > Run it backwards and it will talk about billg > > Still not as fun as the big drives walking across the room or line printer music. Get a AM radio and have fun with music from your PDP-8. From tiggerlasv at aim.com Thu Jun 12 17:45:25 2008 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 18:45:25 -0400 Subject: Fixing a DEC Letterwriter (LA100) Message-ID: <8CA9AF523701033-9A8-53AC@webmail-ne19.sysops.aol.com> > I've started tracing back from the logic controlling the > LINE and CTS indicators but haven't found anything obviously wrong as > yet. I have however read some funny-looking voltages off the 7406 in > this part of the circuit: 11.something volts while the datasheet says > 30. Could of course be down to my test equipment as I'm limited to a > basic digital multimeter at the moment. Before you start tracing things out, you might want to track down the actual USER manual for the LA100. (It's not on Manx or Bitsavers) As far as I know, the LA100 logic circuitry performs a SELF TEST on power-up, and will illuminate various LED's above the keyboard, depending on the problem found. The user manual may tell you what the various lights are trying to tell you. (Paper jam, etc) T From coredump at gifford.co.uk Thu Jun 12 18:12:14 2008 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 00:12:14 +0100 Subject: Silly uses for stepper motors In-Reply-To: <20080612142743.O62517@shell.lmi.net> References: <485192FE.9000607@oldskool.org> <20080612142743.O62517@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4851AD4E.3010106@gifford.co.uk> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 12 Jun 2008, Jim Leonard wrote: > >>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4SCSGRVAQE >>It's a video of a floppy disk drive playing music by screwing with the >>stepper motor. It is my understanding that the video was a hardware >>hack, but it got me thinking... For those who know floppy drives well, >>do you think such a thing could be possible via IBM PC floppy controller >>software calls only? Or is a hardware hack required to generate the >>right frequencies? > > > . . . but think what you could do with the stepper of an SA400 > (or SA390 (Apple)) > Run it backwards and it will talk about billg There's an HP flat-bed scanner that'll play Ode To Joy on the scan-head stepper motor, as a "self-test". One of the classic HP easter-eggs! -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From brain at jbrain.com Thu Jun 12 18:14:09 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 18:14:09 -0500 Subject: Silly uses for stepper motors In-Reply-To: <485192FE.9000607@oldskool.org> References: <485192FE.9000607@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <4851ADC1.9060006@jbrain.com> Jim Leonard wrote: > Okay, so I saw this today: > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4SCSGRVAQE > > It's a video of a floppy disk drive playing music by screwing with the > stepper motor. It is my understanding that the video was a hardware > hack, but it got me thinking... For those who know floppy drives > well, do you think such a thing could be possible via IBM PC floppy > controller software calls only? Or is a hardware hack required to > generate the right frequencies? You have "heard" the 1541, no? http://noname.c64.org/csdb/release/?id=60849 http://noname.c64.org/csdb/release/?id=37806 http://youtube.com/watch?v=5gnMgmlKi_o&feature=related There are other variants, ones that truly make the 1541 sound like your original clip, by using the head knocking and other loud actions. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 11 23:00:42 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 05:00:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: Fixing a DEC Letterwriter (LA100) In-Reply-To: <95838e090806121154h45a9f2dbod4f8bd4ecf89b4cd@mail.gmail.com> from "Steve Maddison" at Jun 12, 8 08:54:19 pm Message-ID: > I have since found the full print set on vt100.net, so I'm all set on > that front. I've started tracing back from the logic controlling the > LINE and CTS indicators but haven't found anything obviously wrong as > yet. I have however read some funny-looking voltages off the 7406 in > this part of the circuit: 11.something volts while the datasheet says > 30. Could of course be down to my test equipment as I'm limited to a > basic digital multimeter at the moment. The 7406 has what's called an 'open collector output'. The output pin is connected to the colelctor of an NPN transsitor (the emitter being grounded), but to nothing else inside the chip. What this means is that the output pin is either low (transistor tuend on) or floating (transistor turned off), it'll never be pulled high bu that chip. The 7406 can handle and external voltage oof 30V on the output (that is, you could connect a resistor between the output pin and any voltage less than 30V, in shich case that supply voltage essentially becomes the 'high' output voltage). But there's no reason why you _have_ to use 30V. Any lower voltage is fine. In particualr, using this chip (and its non-inverting brother, the 7407) to convert between TTL and 12V levels is quite common, ans what I suspect is happening here. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 11 22:56:53 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 04:56:53 +0100 (BST) Subject: Fixing a DEC Letterwriter (LA100) In-Reply-To: <01C8CC96.C823A8C0@host-208-72-122-83.dyn.295.ca> from "M H Stein" at Jun 12, 8 02:15:30 pm Message-ID: > Can't suggest where to start checking but I do have several RO LA100s I guess I'd start by checking all the PSU outputs. I doubt that's the problem here, but PSU problems can cause the most amazing faults... > awaiting the trip to the scrapper, in case I can help with any non-kbd parts > before they go. > > I do also have the tech manual somewhere; unfortunately IIRC it's on 17" > paper so I can't scan it. > > I believe Tony also has a copy and more knowledge/experience than I; > maybe he has some suggestions. I do have the printset, but it would take me a little time to find it. As ever I have no scanenr, so I can't provide a copy. As regards experience, I've worked on these printers, I still have a couple operational. But I've not really had any trouble with them, so I can't claim any experience of fixing them. -tony From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Jun 12 18:17:30 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 18:17:30 -0500 Subject: Silly uses for stepper motors In-Reply-To: <4851ADC1.9060006@jbrain.com> References: <485192FE.9000607@oldskool.org> <4851ADC1.9060006@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4851AE8A.4080609@oldskool.org> Jim Brain wrote: > You have "heard" the 1541, no? Yes, I have. The C64 and Apple could do these things because there was very fine-grained control over the stepper motor. What I'm asking the PC floppy gurus is: Is something like this possible with IBM/PC drives/controllers done completely in software, or is there simply not enough granularity in the PC line to do this? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Thu Jun 12 18:43:20 2008 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 19:43:20 -0400 Subject: Anyone interested in early to mid 90s Mac software? In-Reply-To: <002301c8ccb8$5ee87300$c600a8c0@game> References: <798294.83997.qm@web84101.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <000b01c8cc66$a9a459b0$c600a8c0@game> <4affc5e0806120703j69df9988yccf9c387d2e98d1@mail.gmail.com> <002301c8ccb8$5ee87300$c600a8c0@game> Message-ID: <4affc5e0806121643g67b3b65ak204552e4c9d99f10@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Jun 12, 2008 at 2:16 PM, Teo Zenios wrote: > Is that Microsoft Quickbasic for Mac (I think there was only one)? Anyway I > have a copy of that app and there are two disks, one is a program disk and > the other is an examples disk. If this is what you need let me know, I have > them imaged already. No, what I have (or rather, had before the disk degraded to neglect and overuse long ago) is the Microsoft Basic Interpreter; the manual has a copyright of 1984. The manual states "To use Microsoft BASIC, you need: - A Macintosh computer, properly set up and connected"; cause, at that point there was only one kind :-) I've put a pic of the manual and disk up at http://picasaweb.google.com/Joachim.Thiemann/OldComputerStuff I think that given a image of the disk I could use my SE/30 to make a real disk that I could stick into my Mac 128k - System 1 goodness! Joe. From oldcomps at verizon.net Thu Jun 12 10:32:48 2008 From: oldcomps at verizon.net (Frank Helvey) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 08:32:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone interested in early to mid 90s Mac software? Message-ID: <304871.87143.qm@web84108.mail.mud.yahoo.com> To everyone: I've had three folks come forward so far interested in this s/w, so I'll come up with a list of what I have and post it to the discussion list, hopefully sometime this next week. All of it will be available first come first served for the price of shipping. Donations for my time to pack it up will be appreciated. The software I have is geared towards art production for prepress work, not programming. There should be some general office apps too. -- Frank ------------------------------------------------------------------------- C. Frank Helvey email: cfhelvey at yahoo dot com President home phone: 540.947.2526 Montvale Software Services PC work phone: 540.947.5364 Blue Ridge, VA 24064 cell phone: 540.529.3740 Classic Comps Email: oldcomps at verizon dot net ----- Original Message ---- From: Frank Helvey To: cctech list Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2008 11:55:12 AM Subject: Anyone interested in early to mid 90s Mac software? I've got a collection of various software packages for various Mac flavors that I need to get rid of. If there's any interest in such things I'll put together a list. -- Frank ------------------------------------------------------------------------- C. Frank Helvey email: cfhelvey at yahoo dot com President home phone: 540.947.2526 Montvale Software Services Inc work phone: 540.947.5364 Blue Ridge, VA 24064 cell phone: 540.529.3740 Classic Comps Email: oldcomps at verizon dot net From oldcomps at verizon.net Thu Jun 12 10:38:52 2008 From: oldcomps at verizon.net (Frank Helvey) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 08:38:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Fixing a DEC Letterwriter (LA100) Message-ID: <909757.81675.qm@web84107.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Steve: I don't have the doc set for fixing a LA100, but I believe I do have a working LA100 that I need to move out. I should have another one or two LA type printers, but w/o the keyboards. -- Frank ------------------------------------------------------------------------- C. Frank Helvey email: cfhelvey at yahoo dot com President home phone: 540.947.2526 Montvale Software Services PC work phone: 540.947.5364 Blue Ridge, VA 24064 cell phone: 540.529.3740 Classic Comps Email: oldcomps at verizon dot net ----- Original Message ---- From: Steve Maddison To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2008 5:02:54 AM Subject: Fixing a DEC Letterwriter (LA100) Hello all, I have a half-dead Letterwriter 100 KSR here I'd like to get working again. I get a short buzz from the paper feed motor at power-up but instead of flashing all it's indicator LEDs, both CTS and LINE stay illuminated. There's no carriage movement and the keyboard does nothing either. The basic vital signs are OK but I'm stuck without a service manual or schematics. Does anyone have access to these docs? I'd of course also be interested to hear of any common problems and/or things to check before I dive into all-out mending mode... Cheers, -- Steve Maddison http://www.cosam.org/ "The great thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from." From oldcomps at verizon.net Thu Jun 12 10:55:20 2008 From: oldcomps at verizon.net (Frank Helvey) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 08:55:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Last call for anyone wanting old AS/400 features, cables, printers Message-ID: <568094.31773.qm@web84105.mail.mud.yahoo.com> All: I have a collection of AS/400 parts all of which I need to get rid of. I'm in the process of scrapping out this stuff, so you have to let me know if there's anything here you want in the next week or its gone. Also, each item is provided for shipping charges. Any donations to help with my time would be appreciated. Its easier to scrap it out that to ship it, but I hate to throw away working hardware... a problem a lot of people on this list have, I think! :) I am pretty much clueless on AS/400 stuff, so if you see something here that doesn't make sense, ask. Features; the busses may still be available. I have cables for these too: 9406-5010/5030 IBM I/O Card Unit Feature (rackmount bus for AS/400) 940x-6019 IBM Card for 5030 feature (bus controller?) 940x-6031 IBM 2 line communications ADAP card for 5010/5030 bus 940x-6040 IBM twinax workstation controller card for 5010/5030 bus 940x-6130 IBM Communications I/O processor card for 5010/5030 bus 5042 IBM Expansion chassis - AS/400, rackmount. Includes some blank panels. Has power controller cards. 940x-2621 IBM removable media device attachment for 5042 bus 940x-2623 IBM 6 line communications controller for 5042 bus 940x-2626 IBM Token ring adapter 16/4 Mbps for 5042 bus 940x-2684 IBM Optical bus adapter (< 266 Mbps) for 5042 bus 940x-6050 IBM Twinax workstation controller for 5042 bus 940x-6140 IBM Twinax workstation controller for 5042 bus 940x-6141 IBM ASCII workstation controller for 5042 bus 940x-6501 IBM DASD Controller for 5042 bus 940x-6501 IBM DASD controller; in box, possibly new/unused, for 5042 bus I also have these two tape drives: 7460 Decision Data Corp Dual 8MM tape drives for AS/400, with 6860-CTRL from IPL Systems Inc. Rackmount, includes rack hardware, SCSI cable. 9348-001 IBM/remanufactured 9 track reel tape drive, SCSI. Includes cable and rackmount hardware. This unit has suffered damage to the front cover; its not known if the unit still works at this time. Twinax printers. 4224-01 IBM These printers that don't seem to work. 6262-T12 IBM Parts only, too big to ship. Telex 225 Genicome/Telex Parts only, already disassembled These Twinax and Token Ring networking parts, including twinax cables and some new twinax covers in bags: 5294 IBM 5294-43185 twinax controller with V.35 interface 2452259 EC 834326 IBM Modem to 5294 controller cable 299AT, OR 3C510013 STAR-TEK/3COM ACTIVE HUB, RJ45 CONNECTORS IC028-A STAR-TEK/3COM 299AT HUB EXPANSION MODULES, RJ45 CONNECTORS, WITH POWER SUPPLY 828AT STAR-TEK Intelligent multistation access unit CPA2501 Cisco CiscoPro access unit. Has 2 cards installed - SMART SM536X29001C457 102396-29 memory expansion, and SM732C1000B-12 093096-13 flash memory card for firmware. 3C510511B 10511B-00 3COM SuperStack II Token ring hubs. 7 units include a connecting cable to interconnect them to another SuperStack II hub. All have power cords. Operational until AS/400 deinstalled. 3C16900A 3COM SuperStack II Switch 1000 main assembly 1690-010-000-3.01 15013002 Madge Pccard token ring adapter, ringnode Mk2, 16/4 Mbps, with cable 15013002 Madge ringnode Mk2 as above without cable 34L1499 IBM Pccard token ring, 16/4 Mbps, with cable 933929 IBM Pccard token ring with cable 3C389 3COM Pccard token ring, 16/4 Mbps, without cable J3264A HP JetDirect 500X token ring print server, w/ power supply 309938-002 Intel Netport Express XL token ring print server, no power supply Intel Netport ExpressPRO token ring print server, w/ power supply ------------------------------------------------------------------------- C. Frank Helvey email: cfhelvey at yahoo dot com President home phone: 540.947.2526 Montvale Software Services PC work phone: 540.947.5364 Blue Ridge, VA 24064 cell phone: 540.529.3740 Classic Comps Email: oldcomps at verizon dot net From jerwin at PureNetworks.com Thu Jun 12 11:30:08 2008 From: jerwin at PureNetworks.com (Jeff Erwin) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 09:30:08 -0700 Subject: Basic interpreter 8080 source code needed Message-ID: I have my Imsai 8080 fully running and communicating with my Mac Pro as a dumb terminal. Many thanks to this group for helpful pushing along the way. I have also modified SCS1, the Imsai monitor program, to my liking and have it burned into PROM. Since I do not yet have a floppy system for this antique, I wrote an Intel hex format loader and just send the hex files over the serial line to load them. Life is good. What I am looking for now is the 8080 asm source code to a good 8K basic interpreter. I found one called TinyBasic but it was so concerned with space the author built in a ton of self-modifying code and trying to follow the logic is like untying a plate of spaghetti. I have another one called BASIC85 which is better but assumes a VIO memory-addressable video system. If necessary I will take this one apart and make it work. I hear a lot about Imsai having an 8K basic, and I can find the manuals, but I can?t seem to locate the actual 8080 source. Anyone out there know of or have the asm source code to a basic interpreter or know what became of the Imsai Basic8K? Jeff Erwin From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Jun 12 18:20:56 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 19:20:56 -0400 Subject: Basic interpreter 8080 source code needed Message-ID: <0K2D00LI0I5Y23D3@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Basic interpreter 8080 source code needed > From: Jeff Erwin > Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 09:30:08 -0700 > To: > > >I have my Imsai 8080 fully running and communicating with my Mac Pro as a >dumb terminal. Many thanks to this group for helpful pushing along the way.. >I have also modified SCS1, the Imsai monitor program, to my liking and have >it burned into PROM. Since I do not yet have a floppy system for this >antique, I wrote an Intel hex format loader and just send the hex files over >the serial line to load them. > >Life is good. > >What I am looking for now is the 8080 asm source code to a good 8K basic >interpreter. I found one called TinyBasic but it was so concerned with >space the author built in a ton of self-modifying code and trying to follow >the logic is like untying a plate of spaghetti. I have another one called >BASIC85 which is better but assumes a VIO memory-addressable video system. >If necessary I will take this one apart and make it work. I hear a lot >about Imsai having an 8K basic, and I can find the manuals, but I can?t seem >to locate the actual 8080 source. > >Anyone out there know of or have the asm source code to a basic interpreter >or know what became of the Imsai Basic8K? There are a pot load of BASICs on the net in source form. One can be found on the Dave's old Computers [Dave Dunfield]. Others are around try looking for LLL Basic. Tinybasic is a good one really despite appearances as it was from my memory romable [There were several different ones]. Get back with what you find. I do have LLL and a version of PT 5K basics in my archive and I got them off the net. Allison > >Jeff Erwin From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Jun 12 18:31:01 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 19:31:01 -0400 Subject: Fixing a DEC Letterwriter (LA100) Message-ID: <0K2D00FHVIMQWTZ6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Fixing a DEC Letterwriter (LA100) > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 05:00:42 +0100 (BST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> I have since found the full print set on vt100.net, so I'm all set on >> that front. I've started tracing back from the logic controlling the >> LINE and CTS indicators but haven't found anything obviously wrong as >> yet. I have however read some funny-looking voltages off the 7406 in >> this part of the circuit: 11.something volts while the datasheet says >> 30. Could of course be down to my test equipment as I'm limited to a >> basic digital multimeter at the moment. > >The 7406 has what's called an 'open collector output'. The output pin is >connected to the colelctor of an NPN transsitor (the emitter being >grounded), but to nothing else inside the chip. What this means is that >the output pin is either low (transistor tuend on) or floating >(transistor turned off), it'll never be pulled high bu that chip. > >The 7406 can handle and external voltage oof 30V on the output (that is, >you could connect a resistor between the output pin and any voltage less >than 30V, in shich case that supply voltage essentially becomes the >'high' output voltage). But there's no reason why you _have_ to use 30V. >Any lower voltage is fine. In particualr, using this chip (and its >non-inverting brother, the 7407) to convert between TTL and 12V levels is >quite common, ans what I suspect is happening here. > >-tony Make sure the power supply is working. It's a multiple output deal and it's possible or even likely one output has gone away. Also that machine will error mode if any PS output fails. I have two working LA100ROs here and worked part of the program when I was at DEC. FYI the datasheet for the 7406 only give limits not how it will be used in the circuit. The 11V sounds about reasonable. FYI the common failyure modes for LA100 were Printhead, PS and drive mechanics [Motor and the sprague clutch for ribbon feed]. Logic board failures were commonly RS232 related (usually form really nasty ground loops >25V). The printer can be start in diagnostic and feature setting mode. It requires paper in the printer and a ribbon with a working printhead to see the result. Get the LA100 user manual as the serial interface does use CTS/ and RTS/ unless disabled. there are a bunch of DIP switched hidden under a flap in the printing area that set up some of the features. Allison From jrr at flippers.com Thu Jun 12 18:49:59 2008 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 16:49:59 -0700 Subject: Replacemnets for F8 Microprocessors Message-ID: <4851B627.6040607@flippers.com> Has anyone seen a replacement part for the older F8 series of Fairchild/Mostek 3850/3851 etc. components? Or possibly the Mostek 3870 single chip CPU replacement? I have an application that needs a few of these replaced... John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" From hardware at ees1s0.engr.ccny.cuny.edu Thu Jun 12 19:00:23 2008 From: hardware at ees1s0.engr.ccny.cuny.edu (Kurt Rosenfeld) Date: Thu, 12 Jun 2008 20:00:23 -0400 Subject: HP 85 error 23 Message-ID: <20080613000023.GA2538@eesfc24.engr.ccny.cuny.edu> Hello Everybody, My HP 85 starts up with "Error 23 SELF TEST" but seems to work. Does anybody know how to get it to be more specific about what isn't working correctly? thanks, -kurt From steve at cosam.org Fri Jun 13 03:07:36 2008 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 10:07:36 +0200 Subject: Fixing a DEC Letterwriter (LA100) In-Reply-To: <8CA9AF523701033-9A8-53AC@webmail-ne19.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CA9AF523701033-9A8-53AC@webmail-ne19.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <95838e090806130107r3aaccd62q4e0708e1f20a531a@mail.gmail.com> 2008/6/13 : > As far as I know, the LA100 logic circuitry performs a > SELF TEST on power-up, and will illuminate various LED's > above the keyboard, depending on the problem found. I have the user manual and, yes, it is indeed /meant/ to do a self-test. The problem is that it doesn't ;-) All LEDs should flash briefly at power-on, which they don't, and the combination which stays on doesn't match any of the patterns in the manual. -- Steve Maddison http://www.cosam.org/ From steve at cosam.org Fri Jun 13 03:17:36 2008 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 10:17:36 +0200 Subject: Fixing a DEC Letterwriter (LA100) In-Reply-To: References: <01C8CC96.C823A8C0@host-208-72-122-83.dyn.295.ca> Message-ID: <95838e090806130117t15f44b6ah30b0b807ba5aed7c@mail.gmail.com> 2008/6/12 Tony Duell : >> Can't suggest where to start checking but I do have several RO LA100s > > I guess I'd start by checking all the PSU outputs. I doubt that's the > problem here, but PSU problems can cause the most amazing faults... > That's indeed where I started and, according to the multimeter, all is OK. Could of course be something gruesome going on that I will only be able to detect when I take a scope to it... > I do have the printset, but it would take me a little time to find it. As > ever I have no scanenr, so I can't provide a copy. Don't worry - I have found the prints on Manx (they were "hiding" on a second page of search results that I managed to miss). For the archive: http://www.vt100.net/manx/details/1,4232 And thanks for clearing up the 7406 story - never came across them before. -- Steve Maddison http://www.cosam.org/ From rogpugh at mac.com Fri Jun 13 03:51:07 2008 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 09:51:07 +0100 Subject: HP 85 error 23 In-Reply-To: <20080613000023.GA2538@eesfc24.engr.ccny.cuny.edu> References: <20080613000023.GA2538@eesfc24.engr.ccny.cuny.edu> Message-ID: <98c2f8247aa07709f855d9570b776202@mac.com> Hi Kurt, typing ERRL gives a more specific error code. I have a PDF of the service manual if you want it, but its 60Mb!!!! Otherwise let us know what errl tells you roger On 13 Jun 2008, at 01:00, Kurt Rosenfeld wrote: > Hello Everybody, > > My HP 85 starts up with "Error 23 SELF TEST" > but seems to work. Does anybody know how > to get it to be more specific about what > isn't working correctly? thanks, -kurt > From dave06a at dunfield.com Fri Jun 13 06:49:30 2008 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 06:49:30 -0500 Subject: Silly uses for stepper motors In-Reply-To: <4851AE8A.4080609@oldskool.org> References: <4851ADC1.9060006@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <53782324B1D@dunfield.com> > Jim Brain wrote: > > You have "heard" the 1541, no? > > Yes, I have. The C64 and Apple could do these things because there was > very fine-grained control over the stepper motor. > > What I'm asking the PC floppy gurus is: Is something like this possible > with IBM/PC drives/controllers done completely in software, or is there > simply not enough granularity in the PC line to do this? Unlike the Apple and C64 drives, the step rate on the PC is controlled by a traditional floppy controller, and limited to the step rates supported by that device. - you can make noises with it, but I doubt you could get anything I'd call music. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From dave06a at dunfield.com Fri Jun 13 07:05:02 2008 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 07:05:02 -0500 Subject: Basic interpreter 8080 source code needed In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <545B42B7210@dunfield.com> > > I have my Imsai 8080 fully running and communicating with my Mac Pro as a > dumb terminal. Many thanks to this group for helpful pushing along the way. > I have also modified SCS1, the Imsai monitor program, to my liking and have > it burned into PROM. Since I do not yet have a floppy system for this > antique, I wrote an Intel hex format loader and just send the hex files over > the serial line to load them. > > Life is good. > > What I am looking for now is the 8080 asm source code to a good 8K basic > interpreter. I found one called TinyBasic but it was so concerned with > space the author built in a ton of self-modifying code and trying to follow > the logic is like untying a plate of spaghetti. I have another one called > BASIC85 which is better but assumes a VIO memory-addressable video system. > If necessary I will take this one apart and make it work. I hear a lot > about Imsai having an 8K basic, and I can find the manuals, but I can?t seem > to locate the actual 8080 source. > > Anyone out there know of or have the asm source code to a basic interpreter > or know what became of the Imsai Basic8K? I have an itty-bitty (3K) integer basic for the 8080 which I wrote way back in the 70's. You can get it up and running pretty easily and it doesn't depend on any special I/O ... Source is included on my Altair disks, which you can access under my simulator (you can also run the BASIC to try it out if you like). I have a number of other 8080 code bits which you might find useful - editor, assembler, disassembler, debugger, games etc. much of which is also available in my Altair disks. Regards, Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From dr.emiel at xs4all.nl Fri Jun 13 06:25:10 2008 From: dr.emiel at xs4all.nl (Rik) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 13:25:10 +0200 Subject: HP 85 error 23 In-Reply-To: <98c2f8247aa07709f855d9570b776202@mac.com> References: <20080613000023.GA2538@eesfc24.engr.ccny.cuny.edu> <98c2f8247aa07709f855d9570b776202@mac.com> Message-ID: <4AE170D7F9DC4BE0829E4D18F4CB871B@xp1800> The service manual can be downloaded at the hpmuseum www.hpmuseum.net There is also a yahoo user group for the HP-85. The manual says "ERROR 23 selftest error system needs repair" ;-) Rik -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Roger Pugh Verzonden: vrijdag 13 juni 2008 10:51 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: HP 85 error 23 Hi Kurt, typing ERRL gives a more specific error code. I have a PDF of the service manual if you want it, but its 60Mb!!!! Otherwise let us know what errl tells you roger On 13 Jun 2008, at 01:00, Kurt Rosenfeld wrote: > Hello Everybody, > > My HP 85 starts up with "Error 23 SELF TEST" > but seems to work. Does anybody know how to get it to be more > specific about what isn't working correctly? thanks, -kurt > From vp at cs.drexel.edu Fri Jun 13 07:18:02 2008 From: vp at cs.drexel.edu (Vassilis Prevelakis) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 08:18:02 -0400 Subject: HP 85 error 23 Message-ID: <20080613121802.ABE54CE630@mail.cs.drexel.edu> > My HP 85 starts up with "Error 23 SELF TEST" > but seems to work. Does anybody know how > to get it to be more specific about what > isn't working correctly? thanks, -kurt You may want to check the service manual for the HP-85 http://www.series80.org/PDFs/HP85-RepairCourse.pdf (username: pdf, passwd: iamhuman) There is also a service manual for the HP-85 at: http://hpmuseum.net/document.php?hwfile=3256 but it assumes that you have the self test ROM. Now back you the SELF TEST error. This can be caused by many things (e.g. RAM problem), but it may be due to the configuration of the machine. Do you have any accessories connected to your HP-85? In particular I believe that if you have the HP-IB interface and the Mass Storage ROM, you may get a SELF TEST error in some cases (I am intentionally vague because I don't have an HP-85 near me to check). Try removing all cards from the back of the computer and power it on to see if you still get the error. Regards **vp From bob at jfcl.com Fri Jun 13 08:47:46 2008 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 06:47:46 -0700 Subject: Silly uses for stepper motors In-Reply-To: <20080612142743.O62517@shell.lmi.net> References: <485192FE.9000607@oldskool.org> <20080612142743.O62517@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <001f01c8cd5c$1019a2e0$304ce8a0$@com> On Jim Leonard wrote: > It's a video of a floppy disk drive playing music by screwing with the > stepper motor. ... Or is a hardware hack required to generate the > right frequencies? It's not a floppy, but there's an Easter Egg in the HP Scanjet 5P firmware that allows it to play Beethoven with the stepper motor that moves the head carriage. It wins my vote for the coolest musical Easter Egg in a consumer product. Bob From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri Jun 13 09:13:38 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 07:13:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Westinghouse W1642 terminal... any info? Message-ID: <547924.62338.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I posted this over at comp.terminals, but I figured I'd send it out to this list too... I've just accquired a Westinghouse W1642 terminal, and I'm looking for any kind of documentation I can find on it. It's clearly somewhat of a single purpose terminal, originally used at airlines. The keyboard is weird, and is missing many "useful" characters, like brackets, slashes, pipe and comma. Instead, it has various weird symbols, command keys, and such. It has no shift key, and only displays upper case. It also appears to support multiple sessions, with keys to switch between them, and display a split screen mode. Typing in any of the sessions will echo to the screen, even with nothing connected. On the back are four female DB25 connectors - LINE/PRINT, PRINT1, PRINT2 and AUX. I've tried connecting it up to a computer and sending text to it, at 9600 baud. Connecting an RS232 cable to AUX causes the CTRL-DOWN indicator at the bottom of the screen to go away, but only for the full screen session. Sending random junk to the terminal through the serial port occasionally is able to bring up a message at the top, something about an invalid printer, but no other garbage displays. So far, I've only tried it at 9600 baud, I didn't have time last night to try other speeds. Inside the terminal seems rather conventional, I haven't dismantled it completely, but near each port is a 75154 (quad line receiver), and it appears that farther back on the board are other comms chips (socketed). I was expecting to see 1488/89 pairs, but haven't seen those in there yet. Two of the ports are on a daughter board, the other two are on the main board. The boards are partially hidden by the monitor chassis, and I've not pulled them out to look yet. There are some dip switches on the main board though. So.. basically, I know that this isn't going to be a great computer terminal, with it's lack of important command keys, (no ESC either!). That's too bad, since it's very well built, has a very nice keyboard, and a very sharp, clear screen. But, I would like to be able to do something with it, send text to it, use it as a console command monitor, something. Does anyone have any kind of documentation or information on this beastie? Thanks! -Ian From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Jun 13 09:54:14 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 07:54:14 -0700 Subject: HP IIISi: "50 SERVICE" In-Reply-To: <804239.42485.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <889053.98289.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <804239.42485.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Here is what the quick reference says: The fuser is improperly seated The connector J201 is improperly connected - reseat the connector j201 on the sensor PCA The SW 101 is disengaged - Check the SW101 to make sure it is engaged with the top cover closed A temporary error has occurred - Turn the printer off. Short the DC controller CP005 to bypass the Error 50 time delay You can turn the power off and wait 20 minutes instead of shorting the cap. It is basically an error that says the fuser isn't getting hot within the specified time. It could be a bad fuser heater. Dwight > Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2008 08:59:40 -0700 > From: ian_primus at yahoo.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: HP IIISi: "50 SERVICE" > > > --- On Tue, 6/10/08, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > >>> Anyone have the manual, or at least have some idea >> what >>> "50 SERVICE" >>> means I need to do? >> >> I think I have a PDF manual, I'll see if I can dig it >> up. Contact me off list. >> > > Gah. I just checked the file server - I don't have the manual handy in PDF. All I had was a user's guide. (pretty useless - "To load paper, remove paper cassette..") When I'm back at the office I'll check the shelf. I must have it in dead tree format. Some of the early HP manuals I have were spiral bound, would be hell to scan. > > Anyone have it in PDF for our friend? > > -Ian _________________________________________________________________ Search that pays you back! Introducing Live Search cashback. http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=srchpaysyouback From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 13 14:58:01 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 15:58:01 -0400 Subject: Replacemnets for F8 Microprocessors In-Reply-To: <4851B627.6040607@flippers.com> References: <4851B627.6040607@flippers.com> Message-ID: <034B53C0-F9C9-4DCD-B069-1FF1ED8AA134@neurotica.com> On Jun 12, 2008, at 7:49 PM, John Robertson wrote: > Has anyone seen a replacement part for the older F8 series of > Fairchild/Mostek 3850/3851 etc. components? Or possibly the Mostek > 3870 single chip CPU replacement? I have an application that needs > a few of these replaced... Repairing RA6790/GMs? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 12 21:39:38 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 03:39:38 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP 85 error 23 In-Reply-To: <20080613000023.GA2538@eesfc24.engr.ccny.cuny.edu> from "Kurt Rosenfeld" at Jun 12, 8 08:00:23 pm Message-ID: > > Hello Everybody, > > My HP 85 starts up with "Error 23 SELF TEST" > but seems to work. Does anybody know how > to get it to be more specific about what > isn't working correctly? thanks, -kurt I've looked in the HP85 service manual, but it's not a lot of help. That manual doesn't document the self-test errors, rather it assumes you have a 'Service ROM' which you put in the ROM drawer, and which contains more extensive tests. I guess that if the machine 'seems to work', the problem is with some part you're not using. Have you tried the printer and tape drive, for example? Do you have any add-on ROMs or interfaces installed (if so, pull them out nad try again). Is it possible that some part of the main ROM has failed so that some obscure function doesn't work properly? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Jun 12 21:44:22 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 03:44:22 +0100 (BST) Subject: Fixing a DEC Letterwriter (LA100) In-Reply-To: <95838e090806130117t15f44b6ah30b0b807ba5aed7c@mail.gmail.com> from "Steve Maddison" at Jun 13, 8 10:17:36 am Message-ID: > > I guess I'd start by checking all the PSU outputs. I doubt that's the > > problem here, but PSU problems can cause the most amazing faults... > > > > That's indeed where I started and, according to the multimeter, all is > OK. Could of course be something gruesome going on that I will only be > able to detect when I take a scope to it... > > > I do have the printset, but it would take me a little time to find it. As > > ever I have no scanenr, so I can't provide a copy. > > Don't worry - I have found the prints on Manx (they were "hiding" on a > second page of search results that I managed to miss). For the > archive: http://www.vt100.net/manx/details/1,4232 IIRC this unit is microprocessor-controlled 8085?) and the LEDs are under the control of that microprocessor. What does it use for RAM? If 2114s, then the lucky-dip side of me says to check/replace them. I've had _dozens_ of that chip fail in all sorts of devices, with various odd results. Other than that, I guess you start by checking the processor clock and reset signals, then see if there's any activity on the data and address buses. -tony From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Jun 13 16:03:17 2008 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 14:03:17 -0700 Subject: Manual "IBM Card" Punch on eBay... Message-ID: <200806131403.17346.lbickley@bickleywest.com> There is a Write Line Model 2600 IBM Card Punch on eBay (#370060251979). I know the seller (Weirdstuff Warehouse) - and took a look at it. It is in good shape - the escapement works fine and the keys don't stick. One of the folks at Weirdstuff punched blank IBM cards I gave him (which is what you see in the eBay pictures). I would bid on this item myself - but I've managed to "avoid" card reader and punch I/O ;-) This is not my item (i.e., consignment) - nor do I have any business interest in this auction. Regards, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From steve at cosam.org Fri Jun 13 17:09:07 2008 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 00:09:07 +0200 Subject: Fixing a DEC Letterwriter (LA100) In-Reply-To: References: <95838e090806130117t15f44b6ah30b0b807ba5aed7c@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <95838e090806131509g570cf2b0wc05a8bc694fa8eab@mail.gmail.com> 2008/6/13 Tony Duell : > IIRC this unit is microprocessor-controlled 8085?) and the LEDs are under > the control of that microprocessor. Absolutely correct. Everything between the processor and the LEDs in question looks to be fine so I suspect the program just isn't running right. > What does it use for RAM? If 2114s, then the lucky-dip side of me says to > check/replace them. I've had _dozens_ of that chip fail in all sorts of > devices, with various odd results. Right again, and thanks for the tip. > Other than that, I guess you start by checking the processor clock and > reset signals, then see if there's any activity on the data and address > buses. Indeed - reset looks good and pulling it low gives an audible kick/buzz from one of the motors, just like at power-up. AFAICS the processor's running and not halted or waiting, which would favour your RAM hunch. The stickers on the EPROMS' windows are a bit crusty too, and starting to shine through, so I'll add checking for bit rot to the list as a last resort. Cheers, -- Steve Maddison http://www.cosam.org/ From lynchaj at yahoo.com Fri Jun 13 17:58:24 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 18:58:24 -0400 Subject: CP/M Z80 home brew computer circuit board Message-ID: Hi, If anyone would like to make their own low cost home brew Z80 CP/M computer please contact me by email. I have manufactured PCBs available for sale for $20 each plus shipping. Preprogrammed EPROMs are also available for sale. The hardware and software are documented including schematics, source code, binary images, PCB layout, parts list, etc. Details of the single board computer are available at: http://groups.google.com/group/n8vem Thanks! Andrew Lynch From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Jun 13 18:17:17 2008 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 16:17:17 -0700 Subject: Fwd: Manual "IBM Card" Punch on eBay... Message-ID: <200806131617.17869.lbickley@bickleywest.com> My Oops, that should have been Wright Line Model 2600, not "Write Line...". Sigh, it's a Friday... Lyle ---------- Forwarded Message ---------- Subject: Manual "IBM Card" Punch on eBay... Date: Friday 13 June 2008 14:03 From: Lyle Bickley To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" , Bay Area Collector List There is a Write Line Model 2600 IBM Card Punch on eBay (#370060251979). I know the seller (Weirdstuff Warehouse) - and took a look at it. It is in good shape - the escapement works fine and the keys don't stick. One of the folks at Weirdstuff punched blank IBM cards I gave him (which is what you see in the eBay pictures). I would bid on this item myself - but I've managed to "avoid" card reader and punch I/O ;-) This is not my item (i.e., consignment) - nor do I have any business interest in this auction. Regards, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" ------------------------------------------------------- -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From ragooman at comcast.net Fri Jun 13 19:27:03 2008 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 20:27:03 -0400 Subject: Basic interpreter 8080 source code needed In-Reply-To: <0K2D00LI0I5Y23D3@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0K2D00LI0I5Y23D3@vms173001.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <48531057.3040408@comcast.net> Allison wrote: > There are a pot load of BASICs on the net in source form. > > One can be found on the Dave's old Computers [Dave Dunfield]. Others are > around try looking for LLL Basic. Tinybasic is a good one really despite > appearances as it was from my memory romable [There were several different ones]. > > Get back with what you find. I do have LLL and a version of PT 5K basics in my > archive and I got them off the net. > > > I sent Jeff a copy of the Imsai Basic Manual and it contains the sourcecode . I don't know whether this is already available in a suitable format for loading. So with help from a few of us were going to type this in. If anyone is also interested in this manual it can be found here. http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/files/vintage/imsai/Imsai%208K%20Basic.pdf =Dan [ Pittsburgh --- http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] From tosteve at yahoo.com Fri Jun 13 21:50:46 2008 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 19:50:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 5120 (~1980) , IBM 5363 free in Gainesville, FL Message-ID: <490613.43020.qm@web51604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> They are not mine, do not contact me, contact: PyramidMotorLine at aol.com if interested. Actually, it's an IBM 5110-3 with the 5103 printer - no 5114 floppy drive. Also, IBM 5363 newer model of the System/36. Some pics here: http://www.geocities.com/tosteve/5120.jpg http://www.geocities.com/tosteve/5363.jpg They are not mine, do not contact me, contact: PyramidMotorLine at aol.com if interested. From jrkeys at concentric.net Fri Jun 13 22:20:23 2008 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 22:20:23 -0500 Subject: IBM 5120 (~1980) , IBM 5363 free in Gainesville, FL References: <490613.43020.qm@web51604.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <013401c8cdcd$a1a16d80$0f406b43@66067007> If no one in the area wants them, I would like to try and get them shipped to Houston. Is anyone close to them here on the list? JohnK ----- Original Message ----- From: "steven stengel" To: Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 9:50 PM Subject: IBM 5120 (~1980) , IBM 5363 free in Gainesville, FL > They are not mine, do not contact me, contact: > PyramidMotorLine at aol.com > if interested. > > Actually, it's an IBM 5110-3 with the 5103 printer - no 5114 floppy drive. > > Also, IBM 5363 newer model of the System/36. > > Some pics here: > http://www.geocities.com/tosteve/5120.jpg > http://www.geocities.com/tosteve/5363.jpg > > They are not mine, do not contact me, contact: > PyramidMotorLine at aol.com > if interested. > > > > > > From tjunker at tjunker.com Fri Jun 13 04:24:14 2008 From: tjunker at tjunker.com (Thomas Junker) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 03:24:14 -0600 Subject: Wang VS systems around? Message-ID: <4851E85E.23233.CED8398@tjunker.tjunker.com> Jim Battle wrote: > Believe it or not, the Wang VS still lives on. Thomas > Junker, who for a long time was one of the last real > champions of the Wang VS, has actually revived the Wang VS > family. Getronics bought out Wang and then essentially > milked the dwindling user base without introducing new > products. > > Thomas took the initiative, hired a programmer, and wrote a > Linux-based emulator for the VS family. Enough time had > passed the a fast PC with his emulation software is still > much faster than the old high end machines. He worked with > Getronics to make it legal and they are now in some kind of > cooperative arrangement. > > Thomas Junker's page: > http://www.tjunker.com/ > > TransVirtual Systems page: > http://www.transvirtualsystems.com/ Hi Jim, and thanks! The story is close enough for gummint work. The New VS, also called the VS22000 family, is running happily at about 60 sites in 10 countries, and steadily growing. It usually runs in the Dell PowerEdge 2900, although it can also run in the smaller 2950 and even the 1950. The high end is exactly twice the peformance of the top-of-the-line legacy VS18950, and on the newer PowerEdge 29xx III, 220% of the fastest legacy performance. The current VS OS, 7.54.12, handles up to 1,000 devices/users, and the soon to be released 7.54.20 will handle up to 2,000. Current virtual VS disk sizes supported range up to and including 34 GB. In the VS world, where the first VS supported 32 users in 512 KB (yes, KB) of memory, a 34 GB drive is huge. We virtualized not only the VS machine but the principal I/O Coprocessors as well -- SCSI, of course, Resource Sharing Facility (RSF), the VS clustering technology, the "serial" IOC that used to handle coax/twisted-pair workstations and printers, now providing TCP connections to virtualized workstations, telecommunications, virtual Printer Interface Box and other devices. We even built a PCI Universal Serial IOC to actually run legacy Wang coax, twisted pair and fiber links. The latest virtualizations have been a virtual device that provides high-capacity pipes to and from Linux, such as for access to an Oracle database, and an Integrated Virtual Tape, which allows the VS to seamlessy work with image files of tapes instead of physical tapes. Our goal from the beginning was to make the New VS 100% seamlessly compatible with the legacy VS for all VS software from the OS to languages to utilities and applications. We have done that. A New VS is loaded from legacy VS backup tapes or disk drives. No program or data conversion is needed. The New VS runs the unmodified VS Operating System and all other VS software. And yes, we signed a multiyear contract with Getronics (the succesor to Wang) in early 2005 to work together to bring the new generation of Wang VS to market. So it's all legal. Both Getronics and we sell the New VS worldwide. Your correspondent wrote that the VS appears to have been a pretty fair midrange system. It was and continues to be much more than that: The VS is the easiest and most efficient mainframe to program, operate and use that has ever existed. It supports about a dozen languages and is now in its 31st year, with full object code compatibility throughout, something I don't think any other computer company has ever achieved. And, yes, it is a mainframe, distinguished by all the same characteristics that caused the term to be coined to describe the IBM 360 -- decimal arithmetic at the machine level, an instruction set that makes COBOL almost an assembler for the machine, intelligent I/O "channels", huge connectivity for block-mode workstations, disk drives, tape drives, printers and telecommunications devices. The VS has an instruction set and memory architecture almost identical to the IBM 370. Regards, Thomas Junker tjunker )at( tjunker.com +1 281-890-5312 The Unofficial Wang VS Information Center http://www.tjunker.com/ Vice President TransVirtual Systems tjunker !-at-! transvirtualsystems.com www.transvirtualsystems.com +1 832-615-6050 voice +1 832-553-7863 fax 888-796-0601 (toll free, U.S. and Canada) From jefferwin at gmail.com Fri Jun 13 11:07:06 2008 From: jefferwin at gmail.com (Jeff Erwin) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 09:07:06 -0700 Subject: IMSAI BASIC source In-Reply-To: <200806131514.m5DFE8o1072782@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > >> >> I have my Imsai 8080 fully running and communicating with my Mac Pro as a >> dumb terminal. Many thanks to this group for helpful pushing along the way. >> I have also modified SCS1, the Imsai monitor program, to my liking and have >> it burned into PROM. Since I do not yet have a floppy system for this >> antique, I wrote an Intel hex format loader and just send the hex files over >> the serial line to load them. >> >> Life is good. >> >> What I am looking for now is the 8080 asm source code to a good 8K basic >> interpreter. I found one called TinyBasic but it was so concerned with >> space the author built in a ton of self-modifying code and trying to follow >> the logic is like untying a plate of spaghetti. I have another one called >> BASIC85 which is better but assumes a VIO memory-addressable video system. >> If necessary I will take this one apart and make it work. I hear a lot >> about Imsai having an 8K basic, and I can find the manuals, but I can?t seem >> to locate the actual 8080 source. >> >> Anyone out there know of or have the asm source code to a basic interpreter >> or know what became of the Imsai Basic8K? > > I have an itty-bitty (3K) integer basic for the 8080 which I wrote way back in > the 70's. You can get it up and running pretty easily and it doesn't depend on > any special I/O ... Source is included on my Altair disks, which you can > access > under my simulator (you can also run the BASIC to try it out if you like). > > I have a number of other 8080 code bits which you might find useful - editor, > assembler, disassembler, debugger, games etc. much of which is also available > in my Altair disks. > > Regards, > Dave > > -- > dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield > dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com > com Collector of vintage computing equipment: > http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html > Dave, I did purchase your kit and am using your asm85 (I do have a couple of questions but it can wait), many thanks for having these available. Most of the BASIC source I have found is either poorly written or so tightly wound into a specific hardware implementation that it isn't really usable. I did recently find something called BASIC-5.ASM, written by a Kevin Jordon and modified by a Jeff Zurkow. It looks to be the Processor Tech 5K BASIC adapted for CPM. It looks like I can pretty easily stub the CPM calls and replace them with the IO routines I have created. For anyone interested or anyone who has an IMSAI 8080 with a basic rs232 IO system, I have modified SCS1 (the Imsai monitor) to be a bit more robust as a debugger and to include an Intel HEX loader and Cromemco ByteSaverII prom programming system. I also have the BASIC5K source which appears to be pretty clean and well documented. I haven't found a lick of self-modifing code in it! I am more than happy to make these sources available. Jeff Erwin From trasz at FreeBSD.org Fri Jun 13 12:24:11 2008 From: trasz at FreeBSD.org (Edward Tomasz Napierala) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 19:24:11 +0200 Subject: sunos sources? (pre solaris) In-Reply-To: References: <2970.1213289001@mini> Message-ID: <20080613172411.GB1795@traszkan.ds7> On 0612T1528, Dan Gahlinger wrote: > sunos is not open source. > I have a copy of 1.1 around somewhere... :) Which reminds me - if anyone has sources for SunOS 3.5, please tell. I need to look into ND server implementation for netbooting 3.5. So far I was able to load (via ND) the kernel and boot it; it stops at mounting rootfs (also via ND) for some reason. There is probably some stupid bug in my ND protocol implementation. -- If you cut off my head, what would I say? Me and my head, or me and my body? From neilm at excaliburengineering.com Fri Jun 13 17:06:23 2008 From: neilm at excaliburengineering.com (Neil McGee) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 15:06:23 -0700 Subject: HP 7035B Plotter replacement drive belt? Message-ID: <20080613150615.SM00852@chrisbackup> Hello Tom, Do you have any replacement parts or are willing to part with your 7035B? Best Regards, Neil J. McGee Excalibur Engineering 9201 Irvine Blvd. Irvine, CA 92618 P - 949-454-6603 xt 26 F - 949-454-6642 www.excaliburengineering.com "The only way to beat the lawyers is to die with nothing." - Will Rogers From derschjo at msu.edu Sat Jun 14 00:32:12 2008 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 22:32:12 -0700 Subject: 9-track BOT/EOT markers? Message-ID: <485357DC.4060201@msu.edu> Hey all -- Got myself an HP 7980S 9-track drive (always wanted a 9-track drive...) and accidentally mangled my one and only 9-track tape just after the BOT marker (not sure what caused it, maybe the drive needs a bit of adjustment...). So I have two questions: Where can I find a reasonable replacement for the marker, and where does it go? I see the sense foil on the part of the tape that got mangled, but I don't know what side of the tape it was originally on... Thanks! Josh P.S. The magical tape autoloading thing this drive does is the coolest thing I've seen in a long time :). From hachti at hachti.de Sat Jun 14 11:24:40 2008 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 18:24:40 +0200 Subject: PDP8: Anybody with RALF assembler experience? Message-ID: <4853F0C8.6060601@hachti.de> Hi folks, I recently added a LAB-8/e (PDP-8/e) to my collection. Most of the machine is just running fine (except that I still urgently need at least 8K of core!!). One of the two racks contains the FPP-12 floating point processor. So I can write programs in FORTRAN IV, compile them and run them on the FPP. An awsome device - with it, the 8/e becomes a real dual core machine as the FPP-12 fetches its own instructions from core by data breaks (getting at most half of the 8's memory bandwidth). Now I want to run my Mandelbrot set program written for the H316 on the 8/e with FPP as well. The FORTRAN IV code was quite compatible (had to adjust some of the FORMAT statements and IO channel numbers). But now I want to write a "putchar" routine needed by the program. On the H316 that was simple: One CPU, perfectly documented calling conventions etc. On the 8/e the FORTRAN IV compiler produces output for the RALF assembler. RALF is capable of producing machine code for PDP-8 *and* the FPP as well. The main part of FORTRAN IV programs (nearly everything except IO) runs on the FPP. Subroutine calling and argument passing are also done on the FPP. I now want to know if there are people out there who are able to help me to program a simple PDP-8 assembler subroutine that can be called from within a FORTRAN IV program. Sounds easy - but isn't. I have written a template function and then compiled to RALF assembly - I don't understand very much :-( If anyone has experience with the FPP, RALF and "trapping" (they really call it that way) to PDP-8 code, **please** get in touch with me! Many thanks and best wishes, Philipp :-) P.S.: In FORTRAN IV the desired subroutine would have a signature like "SUBROUTINE PCHAR(I)" From jrkeys at concentric.net Sat Jun 14 12:51:41 2008 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 12:51:41 -0500 Subject: Apple I on ebay Message-ID: <00eb01c8ce47$677af390$0b406b43@66067007> Apple I on eBay with Bid Now of $19,9999 or starting bid of $9,9999. It's 220246191431 John From dgahling at hotmail.com Sat Jun 14 13:33:29 2008 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 14:33:29 -0400 Subject: time to part with my PDP-11 system Message-ID: I have a PDP-11 system, fairly recent, about the size of a mini-fridge, on wheels. last I checked it was still fully operational, but I can't speak to that now, it's spent the last 2 years in storage. I just don't have space for it, and it's a bit larger than I can find use for. its about 4 feet long, 2 feet wide and perhaps 3 feet high - thats by eye ball. it has a TK70 tape drive that's in excellent shape. the plastic cover over the front is missing which is why I'm not sure of the model. I'd rather sell or trade it, if there's interest. i'm looking for a vax station 3100 model 76 or a 4000 model 90 or some volker craig terminals. I'd prefer to avoid junking it. Keep in mind I'm not interested in shipping it, it weighs a bloody ton! located in Scarborough, Ontario (Canada), so anyone in the GTA area would be an easier pick up. Dan. _________________________________________________________________ If you like crossword puzzles, then you'll love Flexicon, a game which combines four overlapping crossword puzzles into one! http://g.msn.ca/ca55/208 From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jun 14 13:48:39 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 11:48:39 -0700 Subject: Apple I on ebay Message-ID: <48541287.4020505@bitsavers.org> "This computer will only be sold to a MUSEUM OR SERIOUS COLLECTOR ONLY" eBay is absolutely the WRONG venue to try proving that. The whole notion of someone going to an estate sale and picking this up is unfortunate as well. I though Sellam knew where all of them were? From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sat Jun 14 14:04:32 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 20:04:32 +0100 Subject: Apple B&W monitor schematic needed G090S In-Reply-To: <483CBA13.40903@flippers.com> References: <200805271526.m4RFQVuU008449@dewey.classiccmp.org> <483CBA13.40903@flippers.com> Message-ID: <1213470272.6389.0.camel@elric> On Tue, 2008-05-27 at 18:49 -0700, John Robertson wrote: > Anyone have this schematic for the Apple B&W 9" monitor? I have one that > I am using, but the screen bias is way off so the screen is overdriven > (horizontal retrace lines showing). Need to find if it is an adjustment > or a bad/leaky capacitor. A1 resistor going high? Gordon From labomb_s at yahoo.com Sat Jun 14 14:34:24 2008 From: labomb_s at yahoo.com (Scott LaBombard) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 12:34:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple I on ebay Message-ID: <970617.91946.qm@web50711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> ----- Original Message ---- > > Apple I on eBay with Bid Now of $19,9999 or starting bid of $9,9999. It's > 220246191431 Is anyone else questioning if this 'original' might instead be one of Steve Gabaly's (aka 'obtronix') replicas? Note the lack of the copyright message under the close-up of the 'Apple Computer 1' logo (I believe the original has 'Palo Alto, Ca. Copyright 1976'). Also note that the edge connector appears to have tin plated pads (like Steve's replica) vs. gold plated pads (like the original). Coincidentally, there appears to be an air-brushed (or rubbed out) spot on the back of the board ...precisely in the spot where Steve included the 'Homebrew 2005' message to help differentiate his replica from the original. Last, the ROM labels on the cassette board are identical to those provided with Steve's cassette board kit (and I thought that the original cassette board had a copyright message on the upper right corner as well). Can't speak for the referenced owner manuals, certificates, etc... (conveniently not pictured ...I would think that the $20k asking price would warrant a couple of extra pix of those items). Scott From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jun 14 14:47:09 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 12:47:09 -0700 Subject: (copy of ) Apple I on ebay Message-ID: <4854203D.2040409@bitsavers.org> > Is anyone else questioning if this 'original' might instead be one of Steve Gabaly's > (aka 'obtronix') replicas? That appears to be the case. The Rockwell 40 pin chip is wrong as well. Unfortuantely, "counterfeits" doesn't appear to be in any of the categories eBay lets you report. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 13 20:42:29 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 02:42:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: Fixing a DEC Letterwriter (LA100) In-Reply-To: <95838e090806131509g570cf2b0wc05a8bc694fa8eab@mail.gmail.com> from "Steve Maddison" at Jun 14, 8 00:09:07 am Message-ID: > > 2008/6/13 Tony Duell : > > IIRC this unit is microprocessor-controlled 8085?) and the LEDs are under > > the control of that microprocessor. > > Absolutely correct. Everything between the processor and the LEDs in You know, I can't rememebr the face of somebody I met yesterday, but I rarely forget a scheamtic. Even though (in this case) I've not worked on an LA100 for over 10 years...) > question looks to be fine so I suspect the program just isn't running > right. > > > What does it use for RAM? If 2114s, then the lucky-dip side of me says to > > check/replace them. I've had _dozens_ of that chip fail in all sorts of > > devices, with various odd results. > > Right again, and thanks for the tip. I think the 2114 is the most unreliable chip I've ever seen. And it doesn't seem to be any particular manufactuer that's to blame either. I would certainly check these very carefully. > RAM hunch. The stickers on the EPROMS' windows are a bit crusty too, > and starting to shine through, so I'll add checking for bit rot to the > list as a last resort. I seem to have dumps of 147E4 and 148E4 here... -tony From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jun 14 14:56:07 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 12:56:07 -0700 Subject: (copy of ) Apple I on ebay In-Reply-To: <4854203D.2040409@bitsavers.org> References: <4854203D.2040409@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <48542257.9010902@bitsavers.org> Al Kossow wrote: > > Is anyone else questioning if this 'original' might instead be one of > Steve Gabaly's > > (aka 'obtronix') replicas? > > > That appears to be the case. The Rockwell 40 pin chip is wrong as well. > > Unfortuantely, "counterfeits" doesn't appear to be in any of the categories > eBay lets you report. > > I have a high resolution scan of the top of a real Apple I board on bitsavers under Apple. The glaring difference is the text "Palo Alto, Ca. Copyright 1976" is missing, as well as the NTI board fab logo just below that. This is the replica board. From labomb_s at yahoo.com Sat Jun 14 15:12:39 2008 From: labomb_s at yahoo.com (Scott LaBombard) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 13:12:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: (copy of ) Apple I on ebay Message-ID: <220351.37348.qm@web50705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > > Is anyone else questioning if this 'original' might instead be one of Steve > Gabaly's > > (aka 'obtronix') replicas? > > > That appears to be the case. The Rockwell 40 pin chip is wrong as well. > > Unfortuantely, "counterfeits" doesn't appear to be in any of the categories > eBay lets you report. In taking a second look, the cassette board doesn't have a copyright message (or NTI logo) because it too, appears to have been specifically altered to remove Steve's 'Homebrew 2005' message. What a shame... Scott From steve at cosam.org Sat Jun 14 15:24:05 2008 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 22:24:05 +0200 Subject: Fixing a DEC Letterwriter (LA100) In-Reply-To: References: <95838e090806131509g570cf2b0wc05a8bc694fa8eab@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <95838e090806141324q1daa770cs6b0dd417cbdfaec2@mail.gmail.com> 2008/6/14 Tony Duell : > I think the 2114 is the most unreliable chip I've ever seen. And it > doesn't seem to be any particular manufactuer that's to blame either. I > would certainly check these very carefully. I whipped all the 2114s out today and popped in a set of IC sockets. Thinking they couldn't possible /all/ be bad, I got two replacements, and have experimented with different combinations of old and new. Very scientific, I know ;-) I thought it was worth a try before hacking up a test rig. Anyway - the original problem is gone. With the (half) new RAM I'm now getting what at least appears to be a proper fault indication on the LEDs: both DSR and POWER/FAULT are flashing. This combination isn't in the user manual so my guess is it's failing the POST. If any of the 2114s were still working, I probably fried them getting them out. I see if I can borrow a couple from a ZX81 or something else lying around here. > I seem to have dumps of 147E4 and 148E4 here... Was just looking for those! I'd sure appreciate a copy if you could mail them or somehow get them online. I might try my luck at tracing through a bit of code to see which conditions are causing the light show. -- Steve Maddison http://www.cosam.org/ From steve at cosam.org Sat Jun 14 15:28:52 2008 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 22:28:52 +0200 Subject: (copy of ) Apple I on ebay In-Reply-To: <48542257.9010902@bitsavers.org> References: <4854203D.2040409@bitsavers.org> <48542257.9010902@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <95838e090806141328t52a0b8f1ubedb99f58f785528@mail.gmail.com> 2008/6/14 Al Kossow : > I have a high resolution scan of the top of a real Apple I board on > bitsavers under Apple. The glaring difference is the text "Palo Alto, > Ca. Copyright 1976" is missing, as well as the NTI board fab logo > just below that. Looks like the typeface is different as well. Too bad... -- Steve Maddison http://www.cosam.org/ From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Jun 14 15:40:20 2008 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 13:40:20 -0700 Subject: (copy of ) Apple I on ebay In-Reply-To: <95838e090806141328t52a0b8f1ubedb99f58f785528@mail.gmail.com> References: <4854203D.2040409@bitsavers.org> <48542257.9010902@bitsavers.org> <95838e090806141328t52a0b8f1ubedb99f58f785528@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90806141340r3c276fe6k58e7379225ac90b7@mail.gmail.com> Is it just coincidence that this one sold to someone in LaPorte, IN on Jun-08-08 Apple I Reproduction Apple 1 Computer Working Rare http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130227527390 And this one is for sale from "NW Indiana"? EXTREMELY RARE Vintage Apple 1 Computer HOLY GRAIL I http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220246191431 From coredump at gifford.co.uk Sat Jun 14 16:02:55 2008 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 22:02:55 +0100 Subject: Fixing a DEC Letterwriter (LA100) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <485431FF.8080006@gifford.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > I think the 2114 is the most unreliable chip I've ever seen. And it > doesn't seem to be any particular manufactuer that's to blame either. I > would certainly check these very carefully. I've also had disproportionate trouble with 2114 RAM chips. I have a couple of Compukit UK101s, which use them for 8K of RAM plus the video memory, and I have quite a few dud chips now, as well as a tube or two of spares. -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Jun 13 21:54:34 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 03:54:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: Fixing a DEC Letterwriter (LA100) In-Reply-To: <95838e090806141324q1daa770cs6b0dd417cbdfaec2@mail.gmail.com> from "Steve Maddison" at Jun 14, 8 10:24:05 pm Message-ID: > > 2008/6/14 Tony Duell : > > I think the 2114 is the most unreliable chip I've ever seen. And it > > doesn't seem to be any particular manufactuer that's to blame either. I > > would certainly check these very carefully. > > I whipped all the 2114s out today and popped in a set of IC sockets. > Thinking they couldn't possible /all/ be bad, I got two replacements, I wouln't put much money on that :-) > and have experimented with different combinations of old and new. Very > scientific, I know ;-) I thought it was worth a try before hacking up > a test rig. > Anyway - the original problem is gone. With the (half) new RAM I'm now > getting what at least appears to be a proper fault indication on the > LEDs: both DSR and POWER/FAULT are flashing. This combination isn't in > the user manual so my guess is it's failing the POST. If any of the Maybe soemthing like 'RAM Error' :-) Incidentally, 2114s fail in different ways. I've had data bits stuck high or low, I've also had address lines ignored (so that the same data is repeated twice). If you're going to test them, you want to check them pretty thoroughly, not jsut make sure you can store something. > > > I seem to have dumps of 147E4 and 148E4 here... > > Was just looking for those! I'd sure appreciate a copy if you could > mail them or somehow get them online. I might try my luck at tracing I'll get them on my way to you... > through a bit of code to see which conditions are causing the light > show. IIRC, there is a custom chip in this machine, which sits on the processor bus. I ahe no idea what the registers in that chip do, so any read/write access to that is essentially unknown. -tony From legalize at xmission.com Sat Jun 14 16:02:56 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 15:02:56 -0600 Subject: (copy of ) Apple I on ebay In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 14 Jun 2008 13:40:20 -0700. <1e1fc3e90806141340r3c276fe6k58e7379225ac90b7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Ebay lets you report the listing as counterfeit, which is what I did. If you think this way, then report it as well. Use the "Report this item" link at the bottom of the auction listing, then select: - Counterfeits and copyright violations - Fraudulent listings - You received an item that may be fake -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Jun 14 16:11:08 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 14:11:08 -0700 Subject: (copy of ) Apple I on ebay In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90806141340r3c276fe6k58e7379225ac90b7@mail.gmail.com> References: <4854203D.2040409@bitsavers.org> <48542257.9010902@bitsavers.org> <95838e090806141328t52a0b8f1ubedb99f58f785528@mail.gmail.com> <1e1fc3e90806141340r3c276fe6k58e7379225ac90b7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > From: glen.slick at gmail.com > > Is it just coincidence that this one sold to someone in LaPorte, IN on > Jun-08-08 > > Apple I Reproduction Apple 1 Computer Working Rare > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130227527390 > > And this one is for sale from "NW Indiana"? > > EXTREMELY RARE Vintage Apple 1 Computer HOLY GRAIL I > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220246191431 Oh my. It is the same one. notice the miss-cut lable on the cassette board. They are cut exactly the same. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ It?s easy to add contacts from Facebook and other social sites through Windows Live? Messenger. Learn how. https://www.invite2messenger.net/im/?source=TXT_EML_WLH_LearnHow From ragooman at comcast.net Sat Jun 14 18:07:03 2008 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 19:07:03 -0400 Subject: (copy of ) Apple I on ebay In-Reply-To: <4854203D.2040409@bitsavers.org> References: <4854203D.2040409@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <48544F17.7020700@comcast.net> Al Kossow wrote: > > Is anyone else questioning if this 'original' might instead be one > of Steve Gabaly's > > (aka 'obtronix') replicas? > > > That appears to be the case. The Rockwell 40 pin chip is wrong as well. > > Unfortuantely, "counterfeits" doesn't appear to be in any of the > categories > eBay lets you report. > One thing that's very obvious is the modern geometries in the pcb design. From the small closeup, you can see that within the pcb traces all the 45 bends are perfectly symmetrical and the corresponding corners are sharp as a knife. Boards of the day always had a some discernible tolerance between the traces and distinct rounding of the corners, even the 45 bends. To report this, you can use the generic step 1= Counterfiets and copyright violations, Bootleg and Step=2 Potential Trademark Infringement, Step3 = other replica or counterfiet items =Dan [ Pittsburgh --- http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Jun 14 19:16:22 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 17:16:22 -0700 Subject: (copy of ) Apple I on ebay In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90806141340r3c276fe6k58e7379225ac90b7@mail.gmail.com> References: <4854203D.2040409@bitsavers.org> <48542257.9010902@bitsavers.org> <95838e090806141328t52a0b8f1ubedb99f58f785528@mail.gmail.com> <1e1fc3e90806141340r3c276fe6k58e7379225ac90b7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: Hi One might compare the cassette boards. It is relatively clear that these two boards are the same board. I don't means similar looking but the same exact board. My guess is that someone has swapped the boards. Possibly one of the "Apple Experts" he had look at the board. I don't think the seller realizes that yet. He'll have a hard time dealing with the law if he lets the sale go through. Dwight > From: glen.slick at gmail.com> > Is it just coincidence that this one sold to someone in LaPorte, IN on> Jun-08-08> > Apple I Reproduction Apple 1 Computer Working Rare> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130227527390> > And this one is for sale from "NW Indiana"?> > EXTREMELY RARE Vintage Apple 1 Computer HOLY GRAIL I> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220246191431 _________________________________________________________________ Search that pays you back! Introducing Live Search cashback. http://search.live.com/cashback/?&pkw=form=MIJAAF/publ=HMTGL/crea=srchpaysyouback From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Jun 14 19:18:13 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 18:18:13 -0600 Subject: CP/M Z80 home brew computer circuit board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48545FC5.5040702@jetnet.ab.ca> Andrew Lynch wrote: > Hi, > > If anyone would like to make their own low cost home brew Z80 CP/M computer > please contact me by email. > > I have manufactured PCBs available for sale for $20 each plus shipping. > Preprogrammed EPROMs are also available for sale. > > The hardware and software are documented including schematics, source code, > binary images, PCB layout, parts list, etc. > > Details of the single board computer are available at: > > http://groups.google.com/group/n8vem > > Reads... grumble Grumble GRUMBLE! I want real FLOPPY I/O! > Thanks! > > Andrew Lynch > > > > From grant at stockly.com Sat Jun 14 19:46:09 2008 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 16:46:09 -0800 Subject: (copy of ) Apple I on ebay In-Reply-To: <48544F17.7020700@comcast.net> References: <4854203D.2040409@bitsavers.org> <48544F17.7020700@comcast.net> Message-ID: <0K2H00D41BGKO680@msgmmp-1.gci.net> At 03:07 PM 6/14/2008, you wrote: >Al Kossow wrote: >> > Is anyone else questioning if this 'original' might instead be >> one of Steve Gabaly's >> > (aka 'obtronix') replicas? >> >> >>That appears to be the case. The Rockwell 40 pin chip is wrong as well. >> >>Unfortuantely, "counterfeits" doesn't appear to be in any of the categories >>eBay lets you report. > >One thing that's very obvious is the modern geometries in the pcb >design. From the small closeup, you can see that within the pcb >traces all the 45 bends are perfectly symmetrical and the >corresponding corners are sharp as a knife. Boards of the day always >had a some discernible tolerance between the traces and distinct >rounding of the corners, even the 45 bends. The traces are different, but in general that isn't a good way to identify a vintage / replica PCB. The cassette board is also missing the copyright and NTI logo. There are too many specific details about this to list them all... From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Jun 14 19:54:18 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 17:54:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: (copy of ) Apple I on ebay In-Reply-To: <220351.37348.qm@web50705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <220351.37348.qm@web50705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Jun 2008, Scott LaBombard wrote: > > > Is anyone else questioning if this 'original' might instead be one of Steve > > Gabaly's > > > (aka 'obtronix') replicas? > > > > > > That appears to be the case. The Rockwell 40 pin chip is wrong as well. > > > > Unfortuantely, "counterfeits" doesn't appear to be in any of the categories > > eBay lets you report. > > In taking a second look, the cassette board doesn't have a copyright message > (or NTI logo) because it too, appears to have been specifically altered to remove > Steve's 'Homebrew 2005' message. > > What a shame... Does anyone have high-resolution scans of a known genuine board and an obtronix replica? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From frustum at pacbell.net Sat Jun 14 20:21:36 2008 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 20:21:36 -0500 Subject: CP/M Z80 home brew computer circuit board In-Reply-To: <48545FC5.5040702@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <48545FC5.5040702@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <48546EA0.8000301@pacbell.net> > Andrew Lynch wrote: >> Hi, >> >> If anyone would like to make their own low cost home brew Z80 CP/M >> computer >> please contact me by email. >> I have manufactured PCBs available for sale for $20 each plus shipping. >> Preprogrammed EPROMs are also available for sale. >> >> The hardware and software are documented including schematics, source >> code, >> binary images, PCB layout, parts list, etc. >> >> Details of the single board computer are available at: >> http://groups.google.com/group/n8vem Ben Franchuk replied: > Reads... grumble Grumble GRUMBLE! > I want real FLOPPY I/O! Great, Ben! I look forward to seeing your design. Debug it, document it, put up a web page, build PCBs, and offer to sell them at cost and see how many grumbles you get. From grant at stockly.com Sat Jun 14 20:51:34 2008 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 17:51:34 -0800 Subject: (copy of ) Apple I on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <220351.37348.qm@web50705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0K2H007X3EHLYU70@msgmmp-1.gci.net> At 04:54 PM 6/14/2008, you wrote: >On Sat, 14 Jun 2008, Scott LaBombard wrote: > > > > > Is anyone else questioning if this 'original' might instead > be one of Steve > > > Gabaly's > > > > (aka 'obtronix') replicas? > > > > > > > > > That appears to be the case. The Rockwell 40 pin chip is wrong as well. > > > > > > Unfortuantely, "counterfeits" doesn't appear to be in any of > the categories > > > eBay lets you report. > > > > In taking a second look, the cassette board doesn't have a > copyright message > > (or NTI logo) because it too, appears to have been specifically > altered to remove > > Steve's 'Homebrew 2005' message. > > > > What a shame... > >Does anyone have high-resolution scans of a known genuine board and an >obtronix replica? I do. I'll e-mail you them off list. I'd also like to make a high resolution scan of a Bus Probe some day. ; ) Grant From grant at stockly.com Sat Jun 14 21:00:23 2008 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 18:00:23 -0800 Subject: (copy of ) Apple I on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <220351.37348.qm@web50705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0K2H00H9REWABS10@msgmmp-1.gci.net> > >Does anyone have high-resolution scans of a known genuine board and an >obtronix replica? I'll share with everyone... http://www.stockly.com/images4/080614-Obtronix_Top.jpg http://www.stockly.com/images4/080614-Vintage_Apple1_Top.jpg http://www.stockly.com/images4/080614-Vintage_Apple1_Cassette_Topt.GIF From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Jun 14 21:08:23 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 20:08:23 -0600 Subject: CP/M Z80 home brew computer circuit board In-Reply-To: <48546EA0.8000301@pacbell.net> References: <48545FC5.5040702@jetnet.ab.ca> <48546EA0.8000301@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <48547997.2010501@jetnet.ab.ca> Jim Battle wrote: > > Great, Ben! I look forward to seeing your design. Debug it, document > it, put up a web page, build PCBs, and offer to sell them at cost and > see how many grumbles you get. > Well when you think about it , I can down load a Z80 - CP/M emulator that is just as fast and I can read emulated disks from my PC. When I think CP/M I think floppy disk and I think you still can get the floppy disk controller chips. From tonym at compusource.net Sat Jun 14 21:41:40 2008 From: tonym at compusource.net (tonym) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 02:41:40 GMT Subject: (copy of ) Apple I on ebay Message-ID: <200806142241406.SM03480@[63.69.23.239]> Seller pulled the auction....says he will "return the item to the person he bought it from" Yah, right - just so happened that he got busted trying to rip people off. Oh, btw, I just found a 1970 Hemi Cuda Convertible in a barn in central florida - first $200K gets it! Tony -----Original Message----- From: Grant Stockly grant at stockly.com Sent 6/14/2008 10:00:23 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: (copy of ) Apple I on ebay Does anyone have high-resolution scans of a known genuine board and an obtronix replica? I'll share with everyone... http://www.stockly.com/images4/080614-Obtronix_Top.jpg http://www.stockly.com/images4/080614-Vintage_Apple1_Top.jpg http://www.stockly.com/images4/080614-Vintage_Apple1_Cassette_Topt.GIF From evan at snarc.net Sat Jun 14 22:01:23 2008 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 23:01:23 -0400 Subject: (copy of ) Apple I on ebay In-Reply-To: <200806142241406.SM03480@[63.69.23.239]> Message-ID: <018201c8ce94$19811230$f750f945@evan> >>> Yah, right - just so happened that he got busted trying to rip people off. It appears, at least in my opinion, that the seller was merely uninformed and/or in denial because HE got duped -- not trying to scam anyone. Or at least that's what I want to believe ... From legalize at xmission.com Sat Jun 14 22:15:05 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 21:15:05 -0600 Subject: (copy of ) Apple I on ebay In-Reply-To: Your message of Sat, 14 Jun 2008 23:01:23 -0400. <018201c8ce94$19811230$f750f945@evan> Message-ID: In article <018201c8ce94$19811230$f750f945 at evan>, "Evan Koblentz" writes: > >>> Yah, right - just so happened that he got busted trying to rip people > off. > > It appears, at least in my opinion, that the seller was merely uninformed > and/or in denial because HE got duped -- not trying to scam anyone. Either way, the auction was pulled, and that's the important thing, right? No victims this way. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sat Jun 14 22:21:09 2008 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 23:21:09 -0400 Subject: time to part with my PDP-11 system In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48548AA5.2080900@compsys.to> >Dan Gahlinger wrote: >I have a PDP-11 system, fairly recent, about the size of a mini-fridge, on wheels. >last I checked it was still fully operational, but I can't speak to that now, it's spent the last 2 years in storage. > >I just don't have space for it, and it's a bit larger than I can find use for. >its about 4 feet long, 2 feet wide and perhaps 3 feet high - thats by eye ball. > >it has a TK70 tape drive that's in excellent shape. > >the plastic cover over the front is missing which is why I'm not sure of the model. > >I'd rather sell or trade it, if there's interest. > > Jerome Fine replies: I don't have any VAX systems, so no trade is possible. But I am in Toronto (H. Fine at 2 Inglis Gate), so give me a phone call. If your system is 2 feet wide, it sounds like a 19" rack in a low cabinet. Does it have an RL02? The TK70 is a 5 1/4" DLT type tape drive which uses DEC CompacTape II media. I don't think the front cover could be missing, but I am not a hardware type person. Do you know which model of PDP-11? And I have been asking for someone to pick up my PDP-11 systems, but no one has answered. Still, I can't see that it would be reasonable to toss it if it is Qbus. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Jun 11 18:46:00 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2008 16:46:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: big bucks for a Tek computer on eBay Message-ID: <637329.13632.qm@web65501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Man it would have been nice to own one of these: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=220243243508&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=012 or item # 220243243508 apparently 6800 based. O woe is me. 322$ + 90$ shipping. O woe is me. why are these things so rare? sniff From steerex at ccvn.com Sat Jun 14 08:25:03 2008 From: steerex at ccvn.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 09:25:03 -0400 Subject: 9-track BOT/EOT markers? In-Reply-To: <485357DC.4060201@msu.edu> References: <485357DC.4060201@msu.edu> Message-ID: <1213449903.2091.12.camel@bart> On Fri, 2008-06-13 at 22:32 -0700, Josh Dersch wrote: > Hey all -- > > Got myself an HP 7980S 9-track drive (always wanted a 9-track drive...) > and accidentally mangled my one and only 9-track tape just after the BOT > marker (not sure what caused it, maybe the drive needs a bit of > adjustment...). So I have two questions: Where can I find a reasonable > replacement for the marker, and where does it go? I see the sense foil > on the part of the tape that got mangled, but I don't know what side of > the tape it was originally on... > > Thanks! > Josh > > P.S. The magical tape autoloading thing this drive does is the coolest > thing I've seen in a long time :). Hey, I agree... It's very cool the way those tape drives load a tape. CAUTION: Shameless plug - If anyone needs some tapes, I have about 20 boxes of new tapes (10 per box) that I'd be willing to part with. To make it worth while, I'll need to get $50 plus shipping for each box. -- Steve Robertson steerex [at] ccvn [dot] com From charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com Sat Jun 14 11:02:45 2008 From: charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 09:02:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 9-track BOT/EOT markers? In-Reply-To: <485357DC.4060201@msu.edu> Message-ID: <478067.35706.qm@web35306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Congrats Josh. I have a 7980H (HP-IB), nice drives. You'll find answers to where BOT/EOT markers go on p3-12 in http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/tape/88780-90010_UsersMan_May90.pdf You'll may also find this useful: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/tape/07980-90030_88780Svc_Oct91.pdf Don't thank me, thank Al. CHeers, Lee C. --- On Fri, 6/13/08, Josh Dersch wrote: > From: Josh Dersch > Subject: 9-track BOT/EOT markers? > To: "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Friday, June 13, 2008, 10:32 PM > Hey all -- > > Got myself an HP 7980S 9-track drive (always wanted a > 9-track drive...) > and accidentally mangled my one and only 9-track tape just > after the BOT > marker (not sure what caused it, maybe the drive needs a > bit of > adjustment...). So I have two questions: Where can I find > a reasonable > replacement for the marker, and where does it go? I see > the sense foil > on the part of the tape that got mangled, but I don't > know what side of > the tape it was originally on... > > Thanks! > Josh > > P.S. The magical tape autoloading thing this drive does is > the coolest > thing I've seen in a long time :). From evan at snarc.net Sun Jun 15 00:27:35 2008 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 01:27:35 -0400 Subject: (copy of ) Apple I on ebay In-Reply-To: <018201c8ce94$19811230$f750f945@evan> Message-ID: <01a201c8cea8$85d670b0$f750f945@evan> I traded some email tonight with the seller. His replies were interesting so I asked if I could share them here on cctalk. He said yes. ---------------- In the first message he said (exact quote, unedited): Well, I didn't want people getting something they don't want or expect, thats not what I'm about. BTW after talking to my friend locally... The whole story and truth came out about this computer! So, the guy (a long close freind of mine ebay account MacEffects bought this from the seller listed recently, and sold to a guy in a city about 20 miles away... I love auctions, went to what I thought was an Estate auction... But it was a house full of scams... And it was being offered as the real deal, and advertised in local paper, sevral bidders, I won it for $3950 (a low price I thought, but I didn't know of this Obtonic computer), and figured I'd make some money being that I have no idea of these computers, or collect (serious) anyways, I thought I'd sell it... Turns out, I got screwed, he won't take it back and the cops are 'investigating' him for other things similar to it, anyways my buddy in town Mark bought it for $1500 off me (he lost a little) but, its better then nothing, he plans to sell it as well. I lost an additional $160 on eBay listings >.<. I tried going on your site, but I can't figure out the Forum thing. Are you a member there? Anyways, thanks for helping me out I appricate it, I got 30 e-mails in 6 hours, so I pulled it, the 4 'experts' are wrong... pfft, happens, it fooled ME! Then in a second message he said (again, unedited): Yeah, its odd... The net makes it a small world, rarity that I ended up with something a good friend and fellow "noob" collector, both had it, and not directly. But life happens, anyways, yeah if you could just let them no, I didn't try to scam anyone, as I pulled the auction within 1.5 days of being listed, I don't want anyone to get screwed, it happened to me, but it sucks, and I don't want someone else to go though it. Anyway if you'd let them know that'd be nice, if not thats fine too. Just don't want a bad rep. Thanks Again. ------------------ So there ya'll have it. According to this seller, he got fooled. At first he heard from some self-proclaimed "Apple experts" (probably just fanboys) insisting it is a REAL unit. Then he got a bunch of emails from we crazy cctalk'ers who scared him into reality. :) -----Original Message----- From: Evan Koblentz [mailto:evan at snarc.net] Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2008 11:01 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: (copy of ) Apple I on ebay >>> Yah, right - just so happened that he got busted trying to rip >>> people off. It appears, at least in my opinion, that the seller was merely uninformed and/or in denial because HE got duped -- not trying to scam anyone. Or at least that's what I want to believe ... From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Jun 15 00:33:12 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 22:33:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: (copy of ) Apple I on ebay In-Reply-To: <0K2H007X3EHLYU70@msgmmp-1.gci.net> References: <220351.37348.qm@web50705.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <0K2H007X3EHLYU70@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Jun 2008, Grant Stockly wrote: > >Does anyone have high-resolution scans of a known genuine board and an > >obtronix replica? > > I do. I'll e-mail you them off list. > > I'd also like to make a high resolution scan of a Bus Probe some day. ; ) Right... Right... I've finally gotten my degree, so I do have some spare time to finally get that card to you. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From sellam at vintagetech.com Sun Jun 15 00:27:44 2008 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 22:27:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple 1 on eBay Message-ID: Well, I thought I'd chime in since I'm somewhat of an "expert" on these. As has been thoroughly deduced already, the board in question was an obvious fake. The lack of the copyright message, the font of the lettering, the contour of the PCB traces, and the other more fine details are all dead giveaways. It's obviously and Obtronix clone. The fact that the definitive telltale marks have been washed from the board is damning. I'm sure there's an interesting story behind this either way. With regards to the auction text: "Trophy For 1st place 2002 Vintage Computer & Electronics Faire" If the guy was talking about the Vintage Computer Festival then I don't know what he's talking about. We didn't feature any Apple-1 in the exhibits at VCF 5.0 in 2002. Al said: "I though Sellam knew where all of them were?" I only know where the ones are that I know of :) I am discovering roughly 2 new ones out in the wild every year or so, though I expect that trend to drop off sharply over time as I've already located 42 so far and my research tells me that there are probably (PROBABLY) no more than 50 still in existence. I emphasize "probably" because this number was deduced through research that was not exacting (I can provide details if there's interest). I'm glad the guy had the sense to pull the auction. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From evan at snarc.net Sun Jun 15 00:44:29 2008 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 01:44:29 -0400 Subject: Apple 1 on eBay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <01bb01c8ceaa$e23cd9a0$f750f945@evan> >>> I've already located 42 so far A very good number regardless. :) From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jun 15 00:52:13 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 22:52:13 -0700 Subject: (copy of ) Apple I on ebay In-Reply-To: <01a201c8cea8$85d670b0$f750f945@evan> References: <018201c8ce94$19811230$f750f945@evan> <01a201c8cea8$85d670b0$f750f945@evan> Message-ID: > From: evan at snarc.net > > I traded some email tonight with the seller. His replies were interesting > so I asked if I could share them here on cctalk. He said yes. > > ---------------- > > In the first message he said (exact quote, unedited): > > Well, I didn't want people getting something they don't want or expect, > thats not what I'm about. BTW after talking to my friend locally... The > whole story and truth came out about this computer! So, the guy (a long > close freind of mine ebay account MacEffects bought this from the seller > listed recently, and sold to a guy in a city about 20 miles away... I love > auctions, went to what I thought was an Estate auction... But it was a house > full of scams... And it was being offered as the real deal, and advertised > in local paper, sevral bidders, I won it for $3950 (a low price I thought, > but I didn't know of this Obtonic computer), and figured I'd make some money > being that I have no idea of these computers, or collect (serious) anyways, > I thought I'd sell it... Turns out, I got screwed, he won't take it back and > the cops are 'investigating' him for other things similar to it, anyways my > buddy in town Mark bought it for $1500 off me (he lost a little) but, its > better then nothing, he plans to sell it as well. I lost an additional $160 > on eBay listings>. Forum thing. Are you a member there? Anyways, thanks for helping me out I > appricate it, I got 30 e-mails in 6 hours, so I pulled it, the 4 'experts' > are wrong... pfft, happens, it fooled ME! > > Then in a second message he said (again, unedited): > > Yeah, its odd... The net makes it a small world, rarity that I ended up with > something a good friend and fellow "noob" collector, both had it, and not > directly. But life happens, anyways, yeah if you could just let them no, I > didn't try to scam anyone, as I pulled the auction within 1.5 days of being > listed, I don't want anyone to get screwed, it happened to me, but it sucks, > and I don't want someone else to go though it. Anyway if you'd let them know > that'd be nice, if not thats fine too. Just don't want a bad rep. Thanks > Again. > > ------------------ > > So there ya'll have it. According to this seller, he got fooled. At first > he heard from some self-proclaimed "Apple experts" (probably just fanboys) > insisting it is a REAL unit. Then he got a bunch of emails from we crazy > cctalk'ers who scared him into reality. :) > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Evan Koblentz [mailto:evan at snarc.net] > Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2008 11:01 PM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: (copy of ) Apple I on ebay > > >>>> Yah, right - just so happened that he got busted trying to rip >>>> people > off. > > It appears, at least in my opinion, that the seller was merely uninformed > and/or in denial because HE got duped -- not trying to scam anyone. > > Or at least that's what I want to believe ... > > Hi I still don't know. I doubt he'd be fool enough to put it up for bid in such a short time. This leads me to think he got fooled. I'm still not sure if MacEffects wasn't some how involved. This has all happened too fast. I think the story should be passed to the local news paper. They'd find out if there was such a person selling fake estate items. The story is still a little too fishy to me. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Instantly invite friends from Facebook and other social networks to join you on Windows Live? Messenger. https://www.invite2messenger.net/im/?source=TXT_EML_WLH_InviteFriends From tonym at compusource.net Sun Jun 15 00:56:46 2008 From: tonym at compusource.net (tonym) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 05:56:46 GMT Subject: (copy of ) Apple I on ebay Message-ID: <200806150156296.SM01764@[63.69.23.239]> Sounds too dang fishy....too many coincidences... Sold on eBay, bought on eBay, relisted on eBay... Oh - and both in Indiana, and HAPPEN to know each other? Pictures of 2 auctions show same item, except the cassette adapter is washed out on upper-right corner, where it was evident they tried to remove the word "homebrew" and whatever else? Doesn't have any idea on this stuff, and dropped nearly 4 large ($4K) on it? I wouldn't buy an athlete's autograph for over $100 without some 3rd-party authentication, and he drops $4K like that? Selling something as what it's not, such as that, is fraud, and being near $4000, that's Grand Theft and a Felony in every state of our fair country - and he's not worried about losing $4K? Oh, and his buddy "Mark" bought it from him for $1500? Dang - another coincidence - that seller (2nd one, claiming it was real) HIS name happens to be Mark as well, as evidenced by his only current eBay listing, where he answers a question, and putting "~Mark" at the end: http://cgi.ebay.com/RARE-Apple-Computer-Freestyle-Tablet-PowerBook-Laptop_W0QQitemZ220245271125QQihZ012QQcategoryZ80075QQtcZphotoQQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem Has no idea, no knowledge of the stuff, yet in the auction listing he says he hooked it all up and tested it with an 'ACSII' keyboard? Come on - a n00b knowing nothing can do that? In the listing, he says it was blown off because it had a thick layer of dust? Hmm...I didn't see that on the FIRST listing...plus, didn't he claim it was in a display case, which was supposedly available for local pickup? Sorry - I don't buy it. Maybe I'm more cynical than most, but that whole string of cr at p is unbelievable. I see too many similarities in completed auctions of BOTH of those eBay ID's. He saw the first listing, saw the clone was local, he bought it, tried to scam it on fleaBay, and he got spanked in his attempt. Thanks to the eagle-eyed honest folks out here, someone did NOT get ripped off. Nice catch, guys! Tony -----Original Message----- From: Evan Koblentz evan at snarc.net Sent 6/15/2008 1:27:35 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: RE: (copy of ) Apple I on ebay I traded some email tonight with the seller. His replies were interesting so I asked if I could share them here on cctalk. He said yes. ---------------- In the first message he said (exact quote, unedited): Well, I didn't want people getting something they don't want or expect, thats not what I'm about. BTW after talking to my friend locally... The whole story and truth came out about this computer! So, the guy (a long close freind of mine ebay account MacEffects bought this from the seller listed recently, and sold to a guy in a city about 20 miles away... I love auctions, went to what I thought was an Estate auction... But it was a house full of scams... And it was being offered as the real deal, and advertised in local paper, sevral bidders, I won it for $3950 (a low price I thought, but I didn't know of this Obtonic computer), and figured I'd make some money being that I have no idea of these computers, or collect (serious) anyways, I thought I'd sell it... Turns out, I got screwed, he won't take it back and the cops are 'investigating' him for other things similar to it, anyways my buddy in town Mark bought it for $1500 off me (he lost a little) but, its better then nothing, he plans to sell it as well. I lost an additional $160 on eBay listings .. I tried going on your site, but I can't figure out the Forum thing. Are you a member there? Anyways, thanks for helping me out I appricate it, I got 30 e-mails in 6 hours, so I pulled it, the 4 'experts' are wrong... pfft, happens, it fooled ME! Then in a second message he said (again, unedited): Yeah, its odd... The net makes it a small world, rarity that I ended up with something a good friend and fellow "noob" collector, both had it, and not directly. But life happens, anyways, yeah if you could just let them no, I didn't try to scam anyone, as I pulled the auction within 1.5 days of being listed, I don't want anyone to get screwed, it happened to me, but it sucks, and I don't want someone else to go though it. Anyway if you'd let them know that'd be nice, if not thats fine too. Just don't want a bad rep. Thanks Again. ------------------ So there ya'll have it. According to this seller, he got fooled. At first he heard from some self-proclaimed "Apple experts" (probably just fanboys) insisting it is a REAL unit. Then he got a bunch of emails from we crazy cctalk'ers who scared him into reality. :) -----Original Message----- From: Evan Koblentz [mailto:evan at snarc.net] Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2008 11:01 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: (copy of ) Apple I on ebay Yah, right - just so happened that he got busted trying to rip people off. It appears, at least in my opinion, that the seller was merely uninformed and/or in denial because HE got duped -- not trying to scam anyone. Or at least that's what I want to believe ... From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sun Jun 15 09:36:23 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 10:36:23 -0400 Subject: CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board Message-ID: <5E5B27B6AB204FE39BB21B75D4C8713B@andrewdesktop> CP/M Z80 home brew computer circuit board bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Jun 14 21:08:23 CDT 2008 * Previous message: CP/M Z80 home brew computer circuit board * Next message: Fwd: Manual "IBM Card" Punch on eBay... * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] ________________________________ Jim Battle wrote: > > Great, Ben! I look forward to seeing your design. Debug it, document > it, put up a web page, build PCBs, and offer to sell them at cost and > see how many grumbles you get. > Well when you think about it , I can down load a Z80 - CP/M emulator that is just as fast and I can read emulated disks from my PC. When I think CP/M I think floppy disk and I think you still can get the floppy disk controller chips. -----REPLY----- Hi! Thanks Jim for the comments. Please let me address the issues raised by Ben: If you look closely at the SBC design, you'll notice it has a feature even better than a floppy controller -- it has a fully buffered IO bus! It contains all the Z80 signals brought out to the DIN 41612 connector. The peripheral bus adheres to the published ECB standard. If you want floppy IO, the solution is simple -- just design one and attach it to the bus! I have already done this with my Disk IO board (IDE and NEC765 FDC) which plugs into my home brew ECB backplane along with the SBC. Assuming there is enough interest in these home brew SBCs, I hope to make a PCB version of the Disk IO board. Yes, this SBC is a slightly modern variation of a vintage Z80 CP/M design. I relaxed some of the traditions to make it affordable, reliable, and still useful. The P112, while an excellent design and a wonderful SBC, costs $165 for a kit when it is available. I know of no other hobbyist Z80 projects where one can purchase the PCB. There are many Z80 designs available, however, without a PCB it means most hobbyists will have to use temporary breadboards, wire wrap, or prototype boards. None of those lend themselves to long term reliable solutions -- especially for a wide range of hobbyist builders. The SBC PCB is meant to be *low cost* and the *common* element of a home brew computer with *simple* IO. Adding unnecessary and complex IO peripherals increases PCB area and cost, raises part count, and pushes away the hobbyists it is meant for. Selecting IO has to be done very carefully. Not everyone who builds this SBC wants floppy IO. I have had numerous requests for many forms of IO ranging from SCSI, IDE, floppy, CF, SD, USB, the Zilog peripherals, etc. There is no solution which will satisfy everyone. Implementing floppy IO can take on many variations and picking the FDC is just the first of many challenges [FDC1793? NEC765? SMC9266? WD2797?]. What about the data separator? Few chips remain and viable sources are scarce. Even integrated FDCs with built in data separators are not readily available. Please remember, this is a *home brew* computer project -- a *real* Z80 running CP/M 2.2 on *real* hardware. It is what you make of it. If all you want is a PC CP/M emulator then this project is not for you. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jun 15 10:16:56 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 09:16:56 -0600 Subject: big bucks for a Tek computer on eBay In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 11 Jun 2008 16:46:00 -0700. <637329.13632.qm@web65501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <637329.13632.qm at web65501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, Chris M writes: > Man it would have been nice to own one of these: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=220243243508&ssPageNa me=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=012 > > or item # 220243243508 > > apparently 6800 based. O woe is me. 322$ + 90$ > shipping. O woe is me. > > why are these things so rare? sniff They're rare for the usual reasons: not many of them sold in the first place and when RAM prices came down, raster graphics systems pushed them out of the marketplace and killed off all the storage scope stuff. Frankly, I'm surprised that as much storage scope based Tektronix gear still exists, given that the transition to raster was 20+ years ago. You can still find these systems, but usually only from other collectors. Tektronix graphics gear is cool enough that people usually salvage it from the scrap path. I got a 4051 recently, but it needs some repairs. I got it from another collector via a 3rd collector :-). Except for the Tektronix raster terminals I got from dovebid, getting things from other "savers" is the only way I've been able to get Tektronix storage scope stuff. That's a good price for that unit, assuming it still works. The BASIC interpreter is in ROM, so you don't need the tape to enter programs and make them work. The tape is the local storage for it. I haven't done much with mine yet, but I hope to restore it to full function at some point. I do have the service manual for the 4051 and its also on bitsavers. See -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jun 15 10:50:30 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 08:50:30 -0700 Subject: big bucks for a Tek computer on eBay Message-ID: <48553A46.6070807@bitsavers.org> > apparently 6800 based. O woe is me. 322$ + 90$ ~$400 isn't 'big bucks' The days of getting this stuff cheap are LONG gone. The original 4051 used a 6800, 4052s simulate a 6800 with 2901s and are MUCH faster. 'posthuman' buys up a lot, along with 'futuresources' and 'wehavedealt', I wonder who they are? From legalize at xmission.com Sun Jun 15 11:58:05 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 10:58:05 -0600 Subject: big bucks for a Tek computer on eBay In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 15 Jun 2008 08:50:30 -0700. <48553A46.6070807@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: In article <48553A46.6070807 at bitsavers.org>, Al Kossow writes: > > apparently 6800 based. O woe is me. 322$ + 90$ > > ~$400 isn't 'big bucks' Yep. > The days of getting this stuff cheap are LONG gone. Yep :-( > The original 4051 used a 6800, > 4052s simulate a 6800 with 2901s > and are MUCH faster. Ah... I didn't realize there was a 2901 connection in the 405x line. Mine is a 4051. > 'posthuman' buys up a lot, along with 'futuresources' > and 'wehavedealt', I wonder who they are? I hadn't noticed these ids before and ebay's policy of keeping everything hidden nowadays makes it hard to notice this without scraping out results from every sale after its done. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jun 15 12:06:33 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 11:06:33 -0600 Subject: CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board In-Reply-To: <5E5B27B6AB204FE39BB21B75D4C8713B@andrewdesktop> References: <5E5B27B6AB204FE39BB21B75D4C8713B@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <48554C19.8050808@jetnet.ab.ca> Andrew Lynch wrote: > -----REPLY----- > > Hi! Thanks Jim for the comments. Please let me address the issues raised > by Ben: > > If you look closely at the SBC design, you'll notice it has a feature even > better than a floppy controller -- it has a fully buffered IO bus! It > contains all the Z80 signals brought out to the DIN 41612 connector. The > peripheral bus adheres to the published ECB standard. > > If you want floppy IO, the solution is simple -- just design one and attach > it to the bus! I have already done this with my Disk IO board (IDE and > NEC765 FDC) which plugs into my home brew ECB backplane along with the SBC. > Assuming there is enough interest in these home brew SBCs, I hope to make a > PCB version of the Disk IO board. > Well when you get a PCB of the Disk I/O board , I'll take the set of PCB's. Will a 8272 (intel) Disk controler replace the NEC765? for the floppy controler for the track formatting for CP/M? Unicorn Electronics is my favorite shopping for electronic parts and I can find a 8272 there. > > Yes, this SBC is a slightly modern variation of a vintage Z80 CP/M design. > I relaxed some of the traditions to make it affordable, reliable, and still > useful. The P112, while an excellent design and a wonderful SBC, costs $165 > for a kit when it is available. I know of no other hobbyist Z80 projects > where one can purchase the PCB. > > There are many Z80 designs available, however, without a PCB it means most > hobbyists will have to use temporary breadboards, wire wrap, or prototype > boards. None of those lend themselves to long term reliable solutions -- > especially for a wide range of hobbyist builders. > > The SBC PCB is meant to be *low cost* and the *common* element of a home > brew computer with *simple* IO. Adding unnecessary and complex IO > peripherals increases PCB area and cost, raises part count, and pushes away > the hobbyists it is meant for. > > Selecting IO has to be done very carefully. Not everyone who builds this > SBC wants floppy IO. I have had numerous requests for many forms of IO > ranging from SCSI, IDE, floppy, CF, SD, USB, the Zilog peripherals, etc. > There is no solution which will satisfy everyone. > > Implementing floppy IO can take on many variations and picking the FDC is > just the first of many challenges [FDC1793? NEC765? SMC9266? WD2797?]. What > about the data separator? Few chips remain and viable sources are scarce. > Even integrated FDCs with built in data separators are not readily > available. > > Please remember, this is a *home brew* computer project -- a *real* Z80 > running CP/M 2.2 on *real* hardware. It is what you make of it. If all you > want is a PC CP/M emulator then this project is not for you. > > Thanks and have a nice day! > > Andrew Lynch > > > From rickb at bensene.com Sun Jun 15 13:17:16 2008 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 11:17:16 -0700 Subject: big bucks for a Tek computer on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Your message of Sun, 15 Jun 2008 08:50:30 -0700.<48553A46.6070807@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Al Kossow wrote: >Ah... I didn't realize there was a 2901 connection in the 405x line. >Mine is a 4051. There was also a 4054, which had a (IIRC) 19" DVST CRT with writethru, and used the same 2901-based bit slice implementation of the 6800 instruction set as the 4052. The microcode for the 2901's fully implemented the 6800 instruction set, such that the 4052 would run with the same ROM code as the 4051, but significantly faster. I remember playing an assembly-language written version of Spacewar (using write-thru refreshed graphics mode) on the 4054 which played very smoothly, and had all kinds of neat features. These machines used BASIC as the "operating system", but the BASIC system was very thorough, allowing access to file-system oriented floppy and hard-disk systems, instrumentation controllers (GPIB), and a wide variety of other peripherals. The 4052/4054 were really quite a powerful machines. Tek really had a winner on their hands, but their insistence of sticking with DVST technology, along with sales people who were used to selling oscilloscopes and other test & measurement equipment, just didn't know how to sell computers very well. The 4051, 4052, and 4054 were successful in their time, but their time wasn't long, as raster-display workstations with GUI operating systems and working environments like Apollo, Xerox, Perq, and others started showing up. Tektronix did experiment with an interesting grayscale raster workstation called the Magnolia, which was quite a machine for its time, but, unfortunately, only a limited number were made, and it never became a product, for much the same reasons as why the 4051/2/4 before it weren't market breakers. The Magnolia also used 2901's if I recall correctly, but implemented a much more advanced processor custom-designed by Tek for a standalone workstation. It also had a high-speed display-list display processor that I also believe was 2900-series based. It ran a Xerox PARC-derived SmallTalk environment, and used a 40-Megabyte 8" Micropolis hard disk drive (pre-SCSI). There was one design problem...the machine was in a pedestal-type format (similar to the 4010 DVST terminals), and the disk drive was located in the base of the pedestal (the drive was pretty heavy, so it made sense to put it in the base). Problem is, when people were sitting at the machine, they had a habit of kicking the pedestal, which would shock the drive, and sometimes drive head crashes. Tek had a number of interesting and innovative computer products, but just never really figured out how to sell anything but T&M equipment. All I know is that while I worked there, there were LOTS of old (for the time) decommissioned PDP 8 and PDP 11 systems that they'd just put out on the covered loading docks and wait for someone to haul away. The scrapper folks would regularly check the loading docks and grab the stuff for the gold and other metals. I had some much opportunity to grab some really cool DEC stuff, but just didn't realize it at the time. The PDP8 systems were mostly used for things like circuit board digitizing and creating Gerber Photo-plotter and N/C drill tape images for circuit boards, and the 11's were used (lots of 11/35's) for automated test systems. I don't remember seeing any Straight-8's there, but I may have been there a little late to see then, or just never ran into them of they were there. But, there were tons of PDP 8/I, /L, and /e /m machines. And many PDP 11's running something called WDI Tek BASIC (an inhouse-developed BASIC specifically developed to make PDP-11's into digital oscilloscopes and measurement systems that were the predecessors of fully automated board test systems). Tektronix Wilsonville had a lot of PDP-10 architecture machines, mostly DECSystem 10's and 20's. Don't know what happened to these machines. I think a lot of the development of the Unix System 7-based OS (TNIX, I think they called it) that ran on the Tek 8501 micoprocessor development systems (LSI-11-based), and the later Tektronix UTek workstatioons (6205?, 6130, 4132), and later System V/BSD-Hybrid (4317, 4319 and XD88) were done on these PDP-10-architecture machines, and then later moved to VAXen (later on, VAX 11/780's and later VAXen were a all over the place, displacing just about all of the PDP 8's and 11's). Some VAXen ran VMS, but a lot ran BSD Unix. Later, for shared engineering use, Gould PowerNode 9080's were purchased which really out-performed the VAXen, and cost less. Don't know what happened to all the PDP-10 and VAX architecture stuff. There were a number of Gould 9080's running when I left in 1990, serving as central UNIX resources for a network of terminals (glass TTY's and X-Terminals), as well as NFS fileservers for early UNIX workstations. I just wish I would have been more "aware" back then. Hindsight is truly 20/20. Rick Bensene Tektronix Employee 1977-1990 The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 15 13:37:57 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 11:37:57 -0700 Subject: Apple 1 on eBay In-Reply-To: <200806151700.m5FH0N87038905@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200806151700.m5FH0N87038905@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4854FF15.18669.6B7F4C@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 22:27:44 -0700 (PDT) > From: Sellam Ismail > I only know where the ones are that I know of :) I am discovering roughly > 2 new ones out in the wild every year or so, though I expect that trend to > drop off sharply over time as I've already located 42 so far and my > research tells me that there are probably (PROBABLY) no more than 50 still > in existence. I suspect that many of them are still in the Bay Area--I vaguely recall a Homebrew meeting or two where they were being sold to the membership for a substantial discount off the $666.66 retail price. Of course, the S-100 clan didn't think much of the board. After all, it was just a board... Cheers, Chuck From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Sun Jun 15 13:57:41 2008 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 14:57:41 -0400 Subject: 9-track BOT/EOT markers? In-Reply-To: <1213449903.2091.12.camel@bart> References: <485357DC.4060201@msu.edu> <1213449903.2091.12.camel@bart> Message-ID: <4affc5e0806151157m44215e9eg56a396ec94820bf7@mail.gmail.com> I've got a pile of free (but used) tapes in Montreal, if anyone wants them... Joe. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Jun 15 14:38:44 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 12:38:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: big bucks for a Tek computer on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 15 Jun 2008, Richard wrote: > I hadn't noticed these ids before and ebay's policy of keeping > everything hidden nowadays makes it hard to notice this without > scraping out results from every sale after its done. I sell a lot of stuff to "futuresources". -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Sun Jun 15 15:32:20 2008 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 16:32:20 -0400 Subject: big bucks for a Tek computer on eBay In-Reply-To: <48553A46.6070807@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <200806152032.m5FKWOxU041314@keith.ezwind.net> I have dealt with wehavedealt numerious times, he is a serious IBM collector. and posthuman made several punch card related purchases from me in 2006 and 2007. I dont know the third one ... Bob Bradlee On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 08:50:30 -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > > apparently 6800 based. O woe is me. 322$ + 90$ >~$400 isn't 'big bucks' >The days of getting this stuff cheap are LONG gone. >The original 4051 used a 6800, >4052s simulate a 6800 with 2901s >and are MUCH faster. >'posthuman' buys up a lot, along with 'futuresources' >and 'wehavedealt', I wonder who they are? From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 15 15:43:09 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 13:43:09 -0700 Subject: CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board In-Reply-To: <200806151700.m5FH0N87038905@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200806151700.m5FH0N87038905@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <48551C6D.30270.DE203A@cclist.sydex.com> From: "Andrew Lynch" > Implementing floppy IO can take on many variations and picking the FDC > is just the first of many challenges [FDC1793? NEC765? SMC9266? > WD2797?]. What about the data separator? Few chips remain and viable > sources are scarce. Even integrated FDCs with built in data separators > are not readily available. The WD1770/1772/1773 is still my favorite "almost no external circuitry" chip, but they're getting harder to find, in spite of being used on Atari and Commodore boxes. You don't need to buffer the floppy interface and the things have integrated data separators-- and come in a 28-pin package. I wonder if it might be practical to implement an FDC in a uC or even a CPLD. Common sense might be to use an IDE-interface floppy, such as a Superdrive (again, getting scarce) or implement a USB UHCI to interface to USB floppies (still easy to find). I shudder to think at the effort and space required to implement a USB stack in Z80 code, however. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Sun Jun 15 16:22:48 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 17:22:48 -0400 Subject: CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board In-Reply-To: <48551C6D.30270.DE203A@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200806151700.m5FH0N87038905@dewey.classiccmp.org> <48551C6D.30270.DE203A@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200806151722.49144.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 15 June 2008 16:43, Chuck Guzis wrote: > From: "Andrew Lynch" > > > Implementing floppy IO can take on many variations and picking the FDC > > is just the first of many challenges [FDC1793? NEC765? SMC9266? > > WD2797?]. What about the data separator? Few chips remain and viable > > sources are scarce. Even integrated FDCs with built in data separators > > are not readily available. > > The WD1770/1772/1773 is still my favorite "almost no external > circuitry" chip, but they're getting harder to find, in spite of > being used on Atari and Commodore boxes. You don't need to buffer > the floppy interface and the things have integrated data separators-- > and come in a 28-pin package. I thought it was the 179x parts that had the data separator on-chip, no? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sun Jun 15 17:09:13 2008 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 17:09:13 -0500 Subject: CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board In-Reply-To: <200806151722.49144.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200806151700.m5FH0N87038905@dewey.classiccmp.org> <48551C6D.30270.DE203A@cclist.sydex.com> <200806151722.49144.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: Whatever you guys do, Ill volunteer to do the layout. Randy > Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 17:22:48 -0400 > From: rtellason at verizon.net > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board > > On Sunday 15 June 2008 16:43, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > From: "Andrew Lynch" > > > > > Implementing floppy IO can take on many variations and picking the FDC > > > is just the first of many challenges [FDC1793? NEC765? SMC9266? > > > WD2797?]. What about the data separator? Few chips remain and viable > > > sources are scarce. Even integrated FDCs with built in data separators > > > are not readily available. > > > > The WD1770/1772/1773 is still my favorite "almost no external > > circuitry" chip, but they're getting harder to find, in spite of > > being used on Atari and Commodore boxes. You don't need to buffer > > the floppy interface and the things have integrated data separators-- > > and come in a 28-pin package. > > I thought it was the 179x parts that had the data separator on-chip, no? > > -- > Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and > ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can > be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" > - > Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James > M Dakin > _________________________________________________________________ It?s easy to add contacts from Facebook and other social sites through Windows Live? Messenger. Learn how. https://www.invite2messenger.net/im/?source=TXT_EML_WLH_LearnHow From marvin at west.net Sun Jun 15 17:50:42 2008 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 15:50:42 -0700 Subject: Apple I on ebay Message-ID: <48559CC2.BA6CA708@west.net> If this is the Apple I I'm thinking of, it WAS bought at a garage sale for a couple of bucks. The person selling it said they were going to put it on oBay, and a friend of his and mine asked me about it. I referred them both to Sellam, and this is the first I've heard about it since then. > From: Al Kossow > Subject: Re: Apple I on ebay > > "This computer will only be sold to a MUSEUM OR SERIOUS COLLECTOR ONLY" > > > eBay is absolutely the WRONG venue to try proving that. > > The whole notion of someone going to an estate sale and picking this > up is unfortunate as well. I though Sellam knew where all of them were? From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sun Jun 15 19:23:57 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 20:23:57 -0400 Subject: Emailing: CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board.htm Message-ID: CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jun 15 12:06:33 CDT 2008 * Previous message: CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board * Next message: big bucks for a Tek computer on eBay * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] ________________________________ Andrew Lynch wrote: > -----REPLY----- > > Hi! Thanks Jim for the comments. Please let me address the issues raised > by Ben: > > If you look closely at the SBC design, you'll notice it has a feature even > better than a floppy controller -- it has a fully buffered IO bus! It > contains all the Z80 signals brought out to the DIN 41612 connector. The > peripheral bus adheres to the published ECB standard. > > If you want floppy IO, the solution is simple -- just design one and attach > it to the bus! I have already done this with my Disk IO board (IDE and > NEC765 FDC) which plugs into my home brew ECB backplane along with the SBC. > Assuming there is enough interest in these home brew SBCs, I hope to make a > PCB version of the Disk IO board. > Well when you get a PCB of the Disk I/O board , I'll take the set of PCB's. Will a 8272 (intel) Disk controler replace the NEC765? for the floppy controler for the track formatting for CP/M? Unicorn Electronics is my favorite shopping for electronic parts and I can find a 8272 there. -----REPLY----- Hi Ben, Of course, the NEC 765 and Intel 8272 are virtually the same part and are as common as dirt. I believe Intel licensed the NEC 765A and just renamed it the i8272 or something like that. However, getting the FDC chip is the trivially easy part. Getting a data separator is a much more difficult problem. Have you tried finding an FDC9229 recently? How about a SMC FDC9216 or UMC 8326? Even the FDC1793 requires a DS chip. I challenge you to even *FIND* a FDC9229 *datasheet* these days. DS chips are nearly unobtainium or at least very difficult to get. I have a few and but not many. They are hard to find. For a DS you can probably substitute a ROM based state machine or even hack it out using SSI TTL chips. However, then you'll have a much larger PCB that'll cost a small fortune to manufacture and few can afford. If you try to use an integrated FDC with DS built in, you'll run into even more problems. Chips like the WD2797 and SMC9266 have built in data separators but are even more scarce and expensive than the data separator chips. In short, if just adding Floppy IO to a SBC were an easy task, you see more home brew SBCs available with them. I am trying to build an SBC that any hobbyist can afford, build reliably, and have a reasonable chance of success. That means compromises had to be made and some stuff had to go. Anyone can design a great computer on paper. Making a real, tangible part is a lot more difficult. Using cool sounding but almost impossible to find parts seems easy but it makes the SBC practically worthless. If you can make a low cost Z80 SBC that includes floppy IO, I would love to see it. I'd even buy one or two. I look forward to seeing your design. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jun 15 20:05:45 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 19:05:45 -0600 Subject: Emailing: CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board.htm In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4855BC69.9060003@jetnet.ab.ca> Andrew Lynch wrote: > That means compromises had to be made and some stuff had to go. > > Anyone can design a great computer on paper. Making a real, tangible part > is a lot more difficult. > > Using cool sounding but almost impossible to find parts seems easy but it > makes the SBC practically worthless. > > If you can make a low cost Z80 SBC that includes floppy IO, I would love to > see it. I'd even buy one or two. > But when you think about it, most early CP/M machines were 8 inch single density. Not much on a disk and that I think is the basic format to look at. I think I seen a data separator using a 16 bit counter at 4x? the data rate but I can't remember where. > I look forward to seeing your design. > > Thanks and have a nice day! > > I can't say I am having a nice day. I am still grumbling over not getting PAD's PCB and LAYOUT software when I could in the late 80's. I am looking to do a 16 bit (2901) cpu using EEPROM (2kx8 250 ns) and am still trying to find a schematic capture and PCB layout program that I can afford with through the whole parts. Sadly all seem to be Australia. :( > Andrew Lynch > > > From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sun Jun 15 21:12:13 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 22:12:13 -0400 Subject: Emailing CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board Message-ID: <4D389AB6187246189F1DA6C194FE65E2@andrewdesktop> bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jun 15 20:05:45 CDT 2008 * Previous message: Emailing: CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board.htm * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] ________________________________ Andrew Lynch wrote: > That means compromises had to be made and some stuff had to go. > > Anyone can design a great computer on paper. Making a real, tangible part > is a lot more difficult. > > Using cool sounding but almost impossible to find parts seems easy but it > makes the SBC practically worthless. > > If you can make a low cost Z80 SBC that includes floppy IO, I would love to > see it. I'd even buy one or two. > But when you think about it, most early CP/M machines were 8 inch single density. Not much on a disk and that I think is the basic format to look at. I think I seen a data separator using a 16 bit counter at 4x? the data rate but I can't remember where. > I look forward to seeing your design. > > Thanks and have a nice day! > > I can't say I am having a nice day. I am still grumbling over not getting PAD's PCB and LAYOUT software when I could in the late 80's. I am looking to do a 16 bit (2901) cpu using EEPROM (2kx8 250 ns) and am still trying to find a schematic capture and PCB layout program that I can afford with through the whole parts. Sadly all seem to be Australia. :( > Andrew Lynch > > > Well, as my Mom likes to say "Talk is cheap. It takes money to buy whiskey." Data separators require either available chips or replacements with specific details. I designed an FDC data separator using plain 74LSxxx parts which is great in theory but there is no way I am going through the expense and time to build it when there are more pressing things to do. There is no guarantee it would work either. I am just an engineer, not a magician. If you look closely at those old 8" SSSD 8080 CP/M machines generally they use lots of SSI TTL and large PCBs. Were a similar computer designed today, it would cost a LOT of money to produce. They cost a lot then too. A home brew SBC using PCB of those sizes would be prohibitively expensive for most people. As for low cost EDA tools, have you tried KiCad and FreeRouting.net? There are links on the N8VEM website: http://groups.google.com/group/n8vem Originally, I designed the N8VEM SBC on notebook paper by hand. Later I recaptured the design with KiCad and used the FreeRouting.net autorouter/manual router. The N8VEM hardware documentation is done using KiCad/FreeRouting.net to create schematics, PCB layout, Gerber files, drill files, BOM, netlist, etc. KiCad is free (beer, speech) and FreeRouting.net is free (beer). They do a great job of schematic capture, PCB layout, have fairly complete parts library, have the ability to make custom parts, and do a great job of both autorouting and/or manual routing of PCB traces. Total cost $0. I doubt you'll find a 4 bit wide bit slice CPU (AMD2901) in the KiCad parts library. That part is a bit obscure these days. However, it'd probably be easy to do a custom part model since it is a plain 40 pin DIP with normal IO. The EEPROM is probably a 2816 or similar and is already in the extended parts library. Thanks and good luck with your project! Andrew Lynch From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jun 15 21:36:54 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 20:36:54 -0600 Subject: Emailing CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board In-Reply-To: <4D389AB6187246189F1DA6C194FE65E2@andrewdesktop> References: <4D389AB6187246189F1DA6C194FE65E2@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <4855D1C6.9020509@jetnet.ab.ca> Andrew Lynch wrote: > As for low cost EDA tools, have you tried KiCad and FreeRouting.net? There > are links on the N8VEM website: http://groups.google.com/group/n8vem > > Originally, I designed the N8VEM SBC on notebook paper by hand. Later I > recaptured the design with KiCad and used the FreeRouting.net > autorouter/manual router. > > I like quad paper myself ... 3 AM I don't want to turn on the puter... > The N8VEM hardware documentation is done using KiCad/FreeRouting.net to > create schematics, PCB layout, Gerber files, drill files, BOM, netlist, etc. > > KiCad is free (beer, speech) and FreeRouting.net is free (beer). > > They do a great job of schematic capture, PCB layout, have fairly complete > parts library, have the ability to make custom parts, and do a great job of > both autorouting and/or manual routing of PCB traces. Total cost $0. > I decided to order DIP-TRACE 2K pins @ $500 US. The problem with the free software I was using was I had logic pinouts but no POWER/GND signals. This project looks to have several 8" x 10" boards and of course the traditional front panel - LEDS and SWITCHES. Since I only have about 20 switches this will be a 16 bit CPU with a 1 MHZ memory cycle and built in D-RAM refresh for 18 address lines. The MMU is the only sticky part in my design so far with 16K code/data pages. Default 64K address space with 4K I/O page. > I doubt you'll find a 4 bit wide bit slice CPU (AMD2901) in the KiCad parts > library. That part is a bit obscure these days. However, it'd probably be > easy to do a custom part model since it is a plain 40 pin DIP with normal > IO. > > The EEPROM is probably a 2816 or similar and is already in the extended > parts library. > > I think my first project will be a simple EEPROM programmer. > Thanks and good luck with your project! > > Andrew Lynch > > > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jun 15 21:52:20 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 19:52:20 -0700 Subject: Apple I on ebay In-Reply-To: <48559CC2.BA6CA708@west.net> References: <48559CC2.BA6CA708@west.net> Message-ID: Hi Marvin I don't think this is the same one. Catch up on your email. Dwight >From: marvin at west.net > > > If this is the Apple I I'm thinking of, it WAS bought at a garage sale for a > couple of bucks. The person selling it said they were going to put it on oBay, > and a friend of his and mine asked me about it. I referred them both to Sellam, > and this is the first I've heard about it since then. > > >> From: Al Kossow >> Subject: Re: Apple I on ebay >> >> "This computer will only be sold to a MUSEUM OR SERIOUS COLLECTOR ONLY" >> >> >> eBay is absolutely the WRONG venue to try proving that. >> >> The whole notion of someone going to an estate sale and picking this >> up is unfortunate as well. I though Sellam knew where all of them were? _________________________________________________________________ Instantly invite friends from Facebook and other social networks to join you on Windows Live? Messenger. https://www.invite2messenger.net/im/?source=TXT_EML_WLH_InviteFriends From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Sun Jun 15 22:54:51 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 03:54:51 +0000 Subject: time to part with my PDP-11 system In-Reply-To: <48548AA5.2080900@compsys.to> References: <48548AA5.2080900@compsys.to> Message-ID: <20080616035451.GE15794@usap.gov> On Sat, Jun 14, 2008 at 11:21:09PM -0400, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > Jerome Fine replies: > And I have been asking for someone to pick up my PDP-11 > systems, but no one has answered. Still, I can't see > that it would be reasonable to toss it if it is Qbus. I'm usually interested in PDP-11 hardware, but with me being down here most of the past 5 years, it's been hard to drop by your place again. Eventually, I'll do another camping trip to Hamilton (which is where I was the last time I dropped by)... if you haven't found a home for things by then, perhaps I could see what will fit in the station wagon. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 16-Jun-2008 at 03:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -85.2 F (-65.1 C) Windchill -104.2 F (-75.7 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 2.8 kts Grid 19 Barometer 676.0 mb (10779 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Jun 15 23:57:24 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 00:57:24 -0400 Subject: Emailing CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board In-Reply-To: <4855D1C6.9020509@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4D389AB6187246189F1DA6C194FE65E2@andrewdesktop> <4855D1C6.9020509@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <06178D39-32B0-490F-B52B-AD76B2B1E460@neurotica.com> On Jun 15, 2008, at 10:36 PM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >> As for low cost EDA tools, have you tried KiCad and >> FreeRouting.net? There >> are links on the N8VEM website: http://groups.google.com/group/n8vem >> >> Originally, I designed the N8VEM SBC on notebook paper by hand. >> Later I >> recaptured the design with KiCad and used the FreeRouting.net >> autorouter/manual router. >> > I like quad paper myself ... 3 AM I don't want to turn on the puter... You turn yours off?? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From steve at cosam.org Mon Jun 16 04:06:36 2008 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 11:06:36 +0200 Subject: Fixing a DEC Letterwriter (LA100) In-Reply-To: References: <95838e090806141324q1daa770cs6b0dd417cbdfaec2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <95838e090806160206s15765ddahfde78700c571c57a@mail.gmail.com> 2008/6/14 Tony Duell : >> Anyway - the original problem is gone. With the (half) new RAM I'm now >> getting what at least appears to be a proper fault indication on the >> LEDs: both DSR and POWER/FAULT are flashing. This combination isn't in >> the user manual so my guess is it's failing the POST. If any of the > > Maybe soemthing like 'RAM Error' :-) That was my first guess too. Running the ROM through a simulator and forcing the RAM test to fail confirms it. The problem? I'd managed to gouge out a bit of track while removing the ICs - just so happens it was one of the very tracks connecting /all/ the RAM to the address bus, so checking for continuity between the sockets I'd soldered in didn't reveal the problem. So I fixed that and robbed a couple more 2114s from another machine. So all RAM is replaced but, lo and behold, ONLINE and CSR are back with a vengeance. So I'm basically back to square one, although not entirely as it would at least appear the RAM is OK. It could of course still be failing in one of the peculiar ways you mentioned and still pass the POST... Otherwise it would appear the original LED combination was directly asserted by the processor, so it should be traceable in the ROM code. >> > I seem to have dumps of 147E4 and 148E4 here... ... > I'll get them on my way to you... Many thanks! You may also want to send them on to Pete Turnbull for inclusion in his DEC ROM archive. > IIRC, there is a custom chip in this machine, which sits on the processor > bus. I ahe no idea what the registers in that chip do, so any read/write > access to that is essentially unknown. I've not come across it yet; let's hope it stays that way ;-) -- Steve Maddison http://www.cosam.org/ "The great thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from." From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Jun 16 08:52:26 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 09:52:26 -0400 Subject: Emailing CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board In-Reply-To: <06178D39-32B0-490F-B52B-AD76B2B1E460@neurotica.com> References: <4D389AB6187246189F1DA6C194FE65E2@andrewdesktop> <4855D1C6.9020509@jetnet.ab.ca> <06178D39-32B0-490F-B52B-AD76B2B1E460@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200806160952.26836.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 16 June 2008 00:57, Dave McGuire wrote: > > I like quad paper myself ... 3 AM I don't want to turn on the puter... > > You turn yours off?? :-) My thought too... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Jun 16 10:21:45 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 08:21:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone in or near Acton MA that could do me a favor? Message-ID: <157418.8144.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Is there anyone in or close to Acton MA that could pick up some computer terminals for me? Unfortunately, they need to be picked up during business hours M-F, and while I'm willing to make the drive to Acton to pick them up, I can't get there during the week because of work. There's only seven of them, so they'd fit in a car. But, shipping would be prohibitive. So, basically, I want to see if someone would be willing to pick them up and hold them for me until this (or next) weekend, where I could make the drive. Thanks! -Ian From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jun 16 10:43:38 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 08:43:38 -0700 Subject: Apple I back up on ebay Message-ID: <48568A2A.2070508@bitsavers.org> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220246863432 only change from the original listing (along with dropping the price). "Up for bids is an Apple I Computer, many experts believe to be infact a good reproduction (of witch about 150 where made - my knowledge of more info is limited) in good shape. One of the genuine ones recently reported selling for in excess of $50,000, and with good reason, experts believe there is only 20-30 in existence of the original 200 handmade by Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak in early 1976." From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jun 16 10:53:45 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 09:53:45 -0600 Subject: Emailing CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board In-Reply-To: <200806160952.26836.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <4D389AB6187246189F1DA6C194FE65E2@andrewdesktop> <4855D1C6.9020509@jetnet.ab.ca> <06178D39-32B0-490F-B52B-AD76B2B1E460@neurotica.com> <200806160952.26836.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <48568C89.6090508@jetnet.ab.ca> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Monday 16 June 2008 00:57, Dave McGuire wrote: > >>> I like quad paper myself ... 3 AM I don't want to turn on the puter... >>> >> You turn yours off?? >> > > :-) > > My thought too... > > I leave my Hi-Fi amp on 24/7 instead cause I like music before bed time ... Zzzz :) From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Mon Jun 16 10:58:29 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 12:58:29 -0300 Subject: Who turns the computer off? References: <4D389AB6187246189F1DA6C194FE65E2@andrewdesktop> <4855D1C6.9020509@jetnet.ab.ca> <06178D39-32B0-490F-B52B-AD76B2B1E460@neurotica.com><200806160952.26836.rtellason@verizon.net> <48568C89.6090508@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <05ab01c8cfca$60d7adb0$02fea8c0@portajara> >>>> I like quad paper myself ... 3 AM I don't want to turn on the puter... >>> You turn yours off?? Turn the computer off? Does it turns off? CAN it be turned off? :oO I though this was a 24x7 appliance :oO From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Jun 16 11:17:04 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 11:17:04 -0500 Subject: big bucks for a Tek computer on eBay In-Reply-To: <48553A46.6070807@bitsavers.org> References: <48553A46.6070807@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <48569200.6000309@gmail.com> Al Kossow wrote: > > apparently 6800 based. O woe is me. 322$ + 90$ > > ~$400 isn't 'big bucks' > > The days of getting this stuff cheap are LONG gone. Not sure about that - the stuff's still out there tucked away, but in a lot of cases prices come in two groups: 'cheap/beer' and 'ebay'. The trick seems to be to not decide 'I want to own an xyz', but to just wait and see what falls into your lap. cheers Jules From tonym at compusource.net Mon Jun 16 13:08:04 2008 From: tonym at compusource.net (tonym) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 18:08:04 GMT Subject: Apple I back up on ebay Message-ID: <200806161408453.SM02676@[63.69.23.239]> So much for his friend giving him $1500 for it... It was a scam attempt, plain and simple. Just so happened he got BuStEd in the process, which I am SURE he did not expect - I assume he thought he was selling it in the land of the dimwits. He could not have been more wrong. With such a small number of originals, and him KNOWING THAT, I don't understand how his little brain concocted what has to be the stupidest idea, and lamest execution, that I've seen in quite a while! It was a failed attempt - too many loose ends, too many trackable things, and a LOUSY job of hacking up the cassette adapter... Not to mention an EXTREMELY limited item with the following of a sports franchise! Those of you thinking otherwise, and are giving him the benefit of the doubt, boy, have I got some REALLY NICE land out here for you in Southwest Florida..... Tony -----Original Message----- From: Al Kossow aek at bitsavers.org Sent 6/16/2008 11:43:38 AM To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org Subject: Apple I back up on ebay http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220246863432 only change from the original listing (along with dropping the price). "Up for bids is an Apple I Computer, many experts believe to be infact a good reproduction (of witch about 150 where made - my knowledge of more info is limited) in good shape. One of the genuine ones recently reported selling for in excess of $50,000, and with good reason, experts believe there is only 20-30 in existence of the original 200 handmade by Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak in early 1976." From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 16 13:08:00 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 11:08:00 -0700 Subject: CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board In-Reply-To: <200806161700.m5GH0aoC057924@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200806161700.m5GH0aoC057924@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <48564990.17681.5767175@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 17:22:48 -0400 > From: "Roy J. Tellason" > I thought it was the 179x parts that had the data separator on-chip, > no? Nope. The 179x require an external data separator, as well as precomp ciruitry and floppy-interface buffering, as well as requiring +12 (although the Fujitsu clones need only +5). It's the 279x that have the internal data separators, but the 1770/72/73 have just about everything in a neat little 28-pin package. About all you have to supply is side and unit-select logic, which is easily done with a write-only latch. Add address decoding logic and you're pretty much done. DMA not required. This contributed hugely, IMOHO, to their being popular on a number of low-end "home" computer systems. The chip handles motor control (e.g. spin-up time from from motor on to ready, auto motor-off after a certain number of inactive revs), which the 179x doesn't do. The 765-based all-in-ones such as the National 8473 and the WD37C65A are about as hard to obtain and are a little more difficult to interface to a Z80 (just about require DMA and interrupts to work right). Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jun 16 13:19:17 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 12:19:17 -0600 Subject: Apple I back up on ebay In-Reply-To: <200806161408453.SM02676@[63.69.23.239]> References: <200806161408453.SM02676@[63.69.23.239]> Message-ID: <4856AEA5.5050203@jetnet.ab.ca> tonym wrote: > Those of you thinking otherwise, and are giving him the benefit of the doubt, boy, have I got some REALLY NICE land out here for you in Southwest Florida..... > > Is that before or AFTER high tide ?! > Tony > From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jun 16 14:06:03 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 12:06:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Who turns the computer off? In-Reply-To: <05ab01c8cfca$60d7adb0$02fea8c0@portajara> References: <4D389AB6187246189F1DA6C194FE65E2@andrewdesktop> <4855D1C6.9020509@jetnet.ab.ca> <06178D39-32B0-490F-B52B-AD76B2B1E460@neurotica.com><200806160952.26836.rtellason@verizon.net> <48568C89.6090508@jetnet.ab.ca> <05ab01c8cfca$60d7adb0$02fea8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <20080616120408.O39918@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 16 Jun 2008, Alexandre Souza wrote: > Turn the computer off? Does it turns off? CAN it be turned off? :oO I > though this was a 24x7 appliance :oO Yeah. There is a special switch, often hidden in back, to be able to shut off the power supply when making hardware reconfigurations. But, then you need to IPL all over again. From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Mon Jun 16 14:11:17 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 16:11:17 -0300 Subject: Who turns the computer off? References: <4D389AB6187246189F1DA6C194FE65E2@andrewdesktop><4855D1C6.9020509@jetnet.ab.ca><06178D39-32B0-490F-B52B-AD76B2B1E460@neurotica.com><200806160952.26836.rtellason@verizon.net><48568C89.6090508@jetnet.ab.ca><05ab01c8cfca$60d7adb0$02fea8c0@portajara> <20080616120408.O39918@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <069e01c8cfe4$e4eadef0$02fea8c0@portajara> >> Turn the computer off? Does it turns off? CAN it be turned off? :oO I >> though this was a 24x7 appliance :oO > Yeah. There is a special switch, often hidden in back, to be able to shut > off the power supply when making hardware reconfigurations. > But, then you need to IPL all over again. Wow! ;oO Never seen that! :oO I though it was just like a living body :oO From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Jun 16 14:18:00 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 12:18:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Who turns the computer off? In-Reply-To: <20080616120408.O39918@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <889894.32758.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> On Mon, 16 Jun 2008, Alexandre Souza wrote: > Turn the computer off? Does it turns off? CAN it be turned off? :oO > I though this was a 24x7 appliance :oO Off is just a condition that exists when you have blown the fuse with too much hardware. I do it rather often lately. The RA90 drive on the VAX will really suck up the power, and since the PC, the Mac, the SGI Octane and their associated monitors are on the same circuit, if I'm not careful I'll take out the @#$_^.++CARRIER LOST From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Jun 16 14:18:30 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 12:18:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Who turns the computer off? In-Reply-To: <20080616120408.O39918@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <151603.26028.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> On Mon, 16 Jun 2008, Alexandre Souza wrote: > Turn the computer off? Does it turns off? CAN it be turned off? :oO > I though this was a 24x7 appliance :oO Off is just a condition that exists when you have blown the fuse with too much hardware. I do it rather often lately. The RA90 drive on the VAX will really suck up the power, and since the PC, the Mac, the SGI Octane and their associated monitors are on the same circuit, if I'm not careful I'll take out the @#$_^.++CARRIER LOST From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Jun 16 14:31:17 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 12:31:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Who turns the computer off? In-Reply-To: <889894.32758.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <889894.32758.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Jun 2008, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Off is just a condition that exists when you have blown the fuse with > too much hardware. I do it rather often lately. The RA90 drive on the > VAX will really suck up the power, and since the PC, the Mac, the SGI > Octane and their associated monitors are on the same circuit, if I'm not > careful I'll take out the @#$_^.++CARRIER LOST ITYM, "NO CARRIER". HTH. HAND. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Jun 16 14:26:15 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 15:26:15 -0400 Subject: time to part with my PDP-11 system Message-ID: <01C8CFC9.E1819080@host-208-72-122-116.dyn.295.ca> Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 03:54:51 +0000 From: Ethan Dicks Subject: Re: time to part with my PDP-11 system >...Eventually, I'll do another camping trip to Hamilton... -ethan --- I'm in Hamilton every week or so, and I have to ask: why? ;-) mike From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Jun 16 14:58:11 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 15:58:11 -0400 Subject: Fixing a DEC Letterwriter (LA100) Message-ID: <01C8CFC9.E3885D00@host-208-72-122-116.dyn.295.ca> -----------ORIGINAL MESSAGE: Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 11:06:36 +0200 From: "Steve Maddison" Subject: Re: Fixing a DEC Letterwriter (LA100) 2008/6/14 Tony Duell : >> Anyway - the original problem is gone. With the (half) new RAM I'm now >> getting what at least appears to be a proper fault indication on the >> LEDs: both DSR and POWER/FAULT are flashing. This combination isn't in >> the user manual so my guess is it's failing the POST. If any of the > > Maybe soemthing like 'RAM Error' :-) That was my first guess too. Running the ROM through a simulator and forcing the RAM test to fail confirms it. The problem? I'd managed to gouge out a bit of track while removing the ICs - just so happens it was one of the very tracks connecting /all/ the RAM to the address bus, so checking for continuity between the sockets I'd soldered in didn't reveal the problem. So I fixed that and robbed a couple more 2114s from another machine. So all RAM is replaced but, lo and behold, ONLINE and CSR are back with a vengeance. So I'm basically back to square one, although not entirely as it would at least appear the RAM is OK. It could of course still be failing in one of the peculiar ways you mentioned and still pass the POST... Otherwise it would appear the original LED combination was directly asserted by the processor, so it should be traceable in the ROM code. -- Steve Maddison http://www.cosam.org/ "The great thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from." ---------REPLY: Various patterns of DSR and POWER/FAULT flashing are the diagnostic failure codes; what pattern do you have that is not documented? Defective RAM is 8 flashes BTW. You ran the ROM through a simulator??? There's an LA100 simulator? m From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jun 16 15:02:08 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 16:02:08 -0400 Subject: Apple I back up on ebay In-Reply-To: <4856AEA5.5050203@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200806161408453.SM02676@[63.69.23.239]> <4856AEA5.5050203@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <40E8232C-C19C-4C03-9DE0-019D0B197BE0@neurotica.com> On Jun 16, 2008, at 2:19 PM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >> Those of you thinking otherwise, and are giving him the benefit of >> the doubt, boy, have I got some REALLY NICE land out here for you >> in Southwest Florida..... >> > Is that before or AFTER high tide ?! I live on some of that really nice land. ;) We've had so damn much rain here over the past week that I've considered building an ark! -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jun 16 15:11:40 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 14:11:40 -0600 Subject: Apple I back up on ebay In-Reply-To: <40E8232C-C19C-4C03-9DE0-019D0B197BE0@neurotica.com> References: <200806161408453.SM02676@[63.69.23.239]> <4856AEA5.5050203@jetnet.ab.ca> <40E8232C-C19C-4C03-9DE0-019D0B197BE0@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4856C8FC.1070406@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jun 16, 2008, at 2:19 PM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >>> Those of you thinking otherwise, and are giving him the benefit of >>> the doubt, boy, have I got some REALLY NICE land out here for you in >>> Southwest Florida..... >>> >> Is that before or AFTER high tide ?! > > I live on some of that really nice land. ;) We've had so damn much > rain here over the past week that I've considered building an ark! > I can see just Dave leading in the computers Two by Two on to his ark. > -Dave > From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jun 16 15:13:03 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 16:13:03 -0400 Subject: Apple I back up on ebay In-Reply-To: <4856C8FC.1070406@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200806161408453.SM02676@[63.69.23.239]> <4856AEA5.5050203@jetnet.ab.ca> <40E8232C-C19C-4C03-9DE0-019D0B197BE0@neurotica.com> <4856C8FC.1070406@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <553E7CF1-0459-4818-BF86-E39A67248149@neurotica.com> On Jun 16, 2008, at 4:11 PM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >>>> Those of you thinking otherwise, and are giving him the benefit >>>> of the doubt, boy, have I got some REALLY NICE land out here for >>>> you in Southwest Florida..... >>>> >>> Is that before or AFTER high tide ?! >> >> I live on some of that really nice land. ;) We've had so damn >> much rain here over the past week that I've considered building an >> ark! >> > I can see just Dave leading in the computers Two by Two on to his ark. Fortunately, most of them have wheels! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From steve at cosam.org Mon Jun 16 15:23:39 2008 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 22:23:39 +0200 Subject: Fixing a DEC Letterwriter (LA100) In-Reply-To: <01C8CFC9.E3885D00@host-208-72-122-116.dyn.295.ca> References: <01C8CFC9.E3885D00@host-208-72-122-116.dyn.295.ca> Message-ID: <95838e090806161323j55a88acfp228800367f9f44b2@mail.gmail.com> 2008/6/16 M H Stein : > Various patterns of DSR and POWER/FAULT flashing are the diagnostic > failure codes; what pattern do you have that is not documented? > > Defective RAM is 8 flashes BTW. Yep, I figured that one out the long way. I only have some user docs so this wasn't listed, just things like "out of paper" and "cover open". I'm now back to the original CTS and ONLINE combination (no flashing). > You ran the ROM through a simulator??? There's an LA100 simulator? If only! There are however 8085 simulators, so fed the RAM test a bad value and the thing went into a loop. These LEDs are driven off a couple of I/O ports so I could match the values written to the ports to the LED combination from the schematic. CTS and ONLINE are however mapped into memory at 0x6000 and I've not found any specific code which would cause them to both illuminate, although there are several candidates. So it could still be a hardware problem... -- Steve Maddison http://www.cosam.org/ From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Jun 16 15:30:48 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 13:30:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Who turns the computer off? In-Reply-To: <05ab01c8cfca$60d7adb0$02fea8c0@portajara> References: <4D389AB6187246189F1DA6C194FE65E2@andrewdesktop> <4855D1C6.9020509@jetnet.ab.ca> <06178D39-32B0-490F-B52B-AD76B2B1E460@neurotica.com><200806160952.26836.rtellason@verizon.net> <48568C89.6090508@jetnet.ab.ca> <05ab01c8cfca$60d7adb0$02fea8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <36185.64.62.206.10.1213648248.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Alexandre wrote: > Turn the computer off? Does it turns off? CAN it be turned off? Frederic Brown addressed that question in his 1954 short story "Answer": http://jahandost.wordpress.com/2008/02/15/fredric-browns-answer/ From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Jun 16 15:58:30 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 13:58:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board In-Reply-To: <48564990.17681.5767175@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200806161700.m5GH0aoC057924@dewey.classiccmp.org> <48564990.17681.5767175@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <41966.64.62.206.10.1213649910.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Chuck wrote: > the 1770/72/73 have just about everything in a neat little 28-pin package. [...] > DMA not required. Whether DMA is required or not has nothing to do with which member of the 177x/179x/279x/MB88xx family you use. It's determined by whether you can write tight enough transfer loops to avoid write underruns and read overruns. On a 6502 a typical read transfer loop takes a minimum of 22 cycles, so a 1 MHz 6502 can keep up with 5.25 inch single and double density and 8 inch single density with programmed I/O. 8 inch double-density requires a faster processor, DMA, or special tricks. With a Z80 a typical read transfer loop takes a minimum of 52 clocks, which on a 2 MHz Z80 meets the requirements for all but 8" double density, which requires a faster processor, DMA, or special tricks. On either processor, unrolling the loop does not shave off enough cycles to get to the 8" double density transfer rate. Note that the read loop has to be capable of reading bytes at about 20% faster than the nominal rate or overruns become likely. nominal nominal required read loop format xfer rate byte time byte time ---------- ---------- --------- ------------------- 5.25" FM 125 Kbps 64 us 52 us 5.25" MFM 250 Kbps 32 us 26 us 8" FM 250 Kpbs 32 us 26 us 8" MFM 500 Kbps 16 us 13 us > The 765-based all-in-ones such as the National 8473 and the WD37C65A > are about as hard to obtain and are a little more difficult to > interface to a Z80 (just about require DMA and interrupts to work > right). The 765-based controllers work fine with or without DMA. Again, the issue is the data rate. Eric From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 15 22:08:14 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 04:08:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: Fixing a DEC Letterwriter (LA100) In-Reply-To: <95838e090806160206s15765ddahfde78700c571c57a@mail.gmail.com> from "Steve Maddison" at Jun 16, 8 11:06:36 am Message-ID: > >> Anyway - the original problem is gone. With the (half) new RAM I'm now > >> getting what at least appears to be a proper fault indication on the > >> LEDs: both DSR and POWER/FAULT are flashing. This combination isn't in > >> the user manual so my guess is it's failing the POST. If any of the > > > > Maybe soemthing like 'RAM Error' :-) > > That was my first guess too. Running the ROM through a simulator and > forcing the RAM test to fail confirms it. The problem? I'd managed to OK... > gouge out a bit of track while removing the ICs - just so happens it > was one of the very tracks connecting /all/ the RAM to the address > bus, so checking for continuity between the sockets I'd soldered in > didn't reveal the problem. > > So I fixed that and robbed a couple more 2114s from another machine. > So all RAM is replaced but, lo and behold, ONLINE and CSR are back > with a vengeance. So I'm basically back to square one, although not Ah, but you've confirmed that the processor is doing something, and that it's executing the firmware (at least partially). If not, then the RAM failure, (albeit a man-made one) would not have been detected. Surely that is a staep forward. > >> > I seem to have dumps of 147E4 and 148E4 here... > ... > > I'll get them on my way to you... > > Many thanks! You may also want to send them on to Pete Turnbull for > inclusion in his DEC ROM archive. You are welcome to forward thenm on to him. I have no claim over them. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 15 22:09:04 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 04:09:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: Emailing CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board In-Reply-To: <200806160952.26836.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at Jun 16, 8 09:52:26 am Message-ID: > > On Monday 16 June 2008 00:57, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > I like quad paper myself ... 3 AM I don't want to turn on the puter... > > > > You turn yours off?? > > :-) > > My thought too... But which computer? Surely you don't keep all your classics powered up all the time, do you? -tony From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Jun 16 16:44:56 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 17:44:56 -0400 Subject: Emailing CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6E267FD8-929A-4019-8C0A-B3F3C11282EE@neurotica.com> On Jun 15, 2008, at 11:09 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >>>> I like quad paper myself ... 3 AM I don't want to turn on the >>>> puter... >>> >>> You turn yours off?? >> >> :-) >> >> My thought too... > > But which computer? Surely you don't keep all your classics powered up > all the time, do you? No, just the production hardware. The hobby stuff is only powered up when I'm using it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jun 16 17:44:19 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 15:44:19 -0700 Subject: Fixing a DEC Letterwriter (LA100) Message-ID: <4856ECC3.6010301@bitsavers.org> I just put a few documents up under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/terminal/la100 that might be helpful. From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Jun 16 19:59:22 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 20:59:22 -0400 Subject: Emailing CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200806162059.23244.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 15 June 2008 23:09, Tony Duell wrote: > > On Monday 16 June 2008 00:57, Dave McGuire wrote: > > > > I like quad paper myself ... 3 AM I don't want to turn on the > > > > puter... > > > > > > You turn yours off?? > > > > > :-) > > > > My thought too... > > But which computer? Surely you don't keep all your classics powered up > all the time, do you? It varies. Right now there are four machines running here at the moment, all hooked up to the LAN here. None of them "classics", I couldn't afford to do that. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Jun 16 20:01:54 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 21:01:54 -0400 Subject: non-CP/M Z80 board Message-ID: <200806162101.54836.rtellason@verizon.net> I'm thinking about building a z80 board, with varying amounts of "stuff" attached, with RAM and ROM that may be NMOS or CMOS, and some indeterminate number of Z80-family and compatible peripheral chips. My question is this: At what point do you _need_ to have address and data bus buffer chips? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From davidfrkane at gmail.com Mon Jun 16 20:40:13 2008 From: davidfrkane at gmail.com (David Kane) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 11:40:13 +1000 Subject: non-CP/M Z80 board In-Reply-To: <200806162101.54836.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200806162101.54836.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: Fanout is one reason, or to interface between fabrication technologies or differing supply potentials. David On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 11:01 AM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > I'm thinking about building a z80 board, with varying amounts of "stuff" > attached, with RAM and ROM that may be NMOS or CMOS, and some > indeterminate > number of Z80-family and compatible peripheral chips. > > My question is this: At what point do you _need_ to have address and data > bus > buffer chips? > > -- > Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and > ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can > be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" > - > Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. > --James > M Dakin > > From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Mon Jun 16 20:52:09 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 01:52:09 +0000 Subject: time to part with my PDP-11 system In-Reply-To: <01C8CFC9.E1819080@host-208-72-122-116.dyn.295.ca> References: <01C8CFC9.E1819080@host-208-72-122-116.dyn.295.ca> Message-ID: <20080617015209.GA32288@usap.gov> On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 03:26:15PM -0400, M H Stein wrote: > Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 03:54:51 +0000 > From: Ethan Dicks > Subject: Re: time to part with my PDP-11 system > > > >...Eventually, I'll do another camping trip to Hamilton... > > -ethan > --- > > I'm in Hamilton every week or so, and I have to ask: why? > ;-) The serious answer is because I have friends who live in an arc between St. Catherines and the west edge of Toronto, and every June since the early 80s, they've done a largish camping event somewhere in the Hamilton area (Knight's Dunmark Park is where it was 20 years ago, but that was turned into a golf course). While these friends aren't into classic computers at all, it does give me incentive to spend the gas to drive 7-8 hours from central Ohio, and puts me in that area for quick little side trips (like to Jerome's house) every few years. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 17-Jun-2008 at 01:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -63.6 F (-53.1 C) Windchill -94.3 F (-70.1 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 8.4 kts Grid 349 Barometer 672.6 mb (10909 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jun 16 20:53:57 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 19:53:57 -0600 Subject: non-CP/M Z80 board In-Reply-To: <200806162101.54836.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200806162101.54836.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <48571935.6030406@jetnet.ab.ca> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > I'm thinking about building a z80 board, with varying amounts of "stuff" > attached, with RAM and ROM that may be NMOS or CMOS, and some indeterminate > number of Z80-family and compatible peripheral chips. > > My question is this: At what point do you _need_ to have address and data bus > buffer chips? > Read the $%#! manual to put it bluntly. A simple guess is once your design is larger than a small card, you need I/O buffering. I think a 6800 cpu can drive about 150 pf and a typical load is 10 pf at rated speeds. From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Jun 16 21:01:49 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 22:01:49 -0400 Subject: non-CP/M Z80 board In-Reply-To: References: <200806162101.54836.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200806162201.49886.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 16 June 2008 21:40, David Kane wrote: > Fanout is one reason, or to interface between fabrication technologies or > differing supply potentials. > > David I don't anticipate any difference in supply potentials, and was hoping to avoid digging through the datasheets worrying about fanout, if perhaps some of the BTDT folks in here would know offhand. :-) > On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 11:01 AM, Roy J. Tellason > > wrote: > > I'm thinking about building a z80 board, with varying amounts of "stuff" > > attached, with RAM and ROM that may be NMOS or CMOS, and some > > indeterminate > > number of Z80-family and compatible peripheral chips. > > > > My question is this: At what point do you _need_ to have address and > > data bus > > buffer chips? > > > > -- > > Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and > > ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can > > be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" > > - > > Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. > > --James > > M Dakin -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Jun 16 21:04:49 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 22:04:49 -0400 Subject: non-CP/M Z80 board In-Reply-To: <48571935.6030406@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200806162101.54836.rtellason@verizon.net> <48571935.6030406@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200806162204.49847.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 16 June 2008 21:53, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > I'm thinking about building a z80 board, with varying amounts of "stuff" > > attached, with RAM and ROM that may be NMOS or CMOS, and some > > indeterminate number of Z80-family and compatible peripheral chips. > > > > My question is this: At what point do you _need_ to have address and > > data bus buffer chips? > > Read the $%#! manual to put it bluntly. Thanks. > A simple guess is once your design is larger than a small card, Define "small". > you need I/O buffering. I think a 6800 cpu can drive about 150 pf and a > typical load is 10 pf at rated speeds. I'm not familiar with many 6800 designs, but I was somewhat surprised to see how limited some parts are, like the 8085 in the "8085 Cookbook" where you could really get away with very little. OTOH, the c64 doesn't use any buffering _at all_ and yet the CPU in there seems to have little trouble driving 3 ROM chips, a set of 8 4164s, plus all the peripherals. I'm guessing that the Z80 is probably somewhere in between, and that the datasheet probalby won't give me the whole story anyhow. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From davidfrkane at gmail.com Mon Jun 16 21:07:36 2008 From: davidfrkane at gmail.com (David Kane) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 12:07:36 +1000 Subject: non-CP/M Z80 board In-Reply-To: <48571935.6030406@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200806162101.54836.rtellason@verizon.net> <48571935.6030406@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 11:53 AM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca < bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >> I'm thinking about building a z80 board, with varying amounts of "stuff" >> attached, with RAM and ROM that may be NMOS or CMOS, and some >> indeterminate number of Z80-family and compatible peripheral chips. >> >> My question is this: At what point do you _need_ to have address and data >> bus buffer chips? >> >> > Read the $%#! manual to put it bluntly. A simple guess is once your > design is larger than a small card, you need I/O buffering. I think > a 6800 cpu can drive about 150 pf and a typical load is 10 pf at > rated speeds. > > Should that be mA for load? I am pretty much a noob at EE and design, but I did manage to get my head around fanout and loading calculations. They feel funny at first when self teaching yourself and then all of a sudden make sense. David From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jun 16 21:09:02 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 20:09:02 -0600 Subject: non-CP/M Z80 board In-Reply-To: <200806162201.49886.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200806162101.54836.rtellason@verizon.net> <200806162201.49886.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <48571CBE.8020503@jetnet.ab.ca> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Monday 16 June 2008 21:40, David Kane wrote: > >> Fanout is one reason, or to interface between fabrication technologies or >> differing supply potentials. >> >> David >> > > I don't anticipate any difference in supply potentials, and was hoping to > avoid digging through the datasheets worrying about fanout, if perhaps some > of the BTDT folks in here would know offhand. :-) You may still have to dig through the data-sheets for $%@! got ya's with almost every cpu. Clock generation comes to mind as well as the IRQ logic on the Z80 is a bit trickry for non Z80 parts. From lynchaj at yahoo.com Mon Jun 16 21:10:48 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 22:10:48 -0400 Subject: non-CP-M Z80 board Message-ID: non-CP/M Z80 board Roy J. Tellason rtellason at verizon.net Mon Jun 16 20:01:54 CDT 2008 * Previous message: Fixing a DEC Letterwriter (LA100) * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] ________________________________ I'm thinking about building a z80 board, with varying amounts of "stuff" attached, with RAM and ROM that may be NMOS or CMOS, and some indeterminate number of Z80-family and compatible peripheral chips. My question is this: At what point do you _need_ to have address and data bus buffer chips? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin -----REPLY----- Hi, I think the safe range for 74LSxxx style TTL is about 5-10 or so connections per output gate. You can compute the ratio of the various datasheet currents and get a more exact figure. However, here is a pretty good set of "rules of thumb" for circuit design: http://kurser.iha.dk/eit/dtm1/DTM1_html/Wakerly/udgave3/xc03.pdf See line 3.49 for the table of the various combinations. They say 74LSxxx on 74LSxxx can do up to 20 but I'd keep it lower to be safe. That should be enough for some static RAM, a ROM, a couple of peripherals, some simple glue logic and that's about it. You can stretch it a bit using CMOS chips or the more recent TTL families as long as you keep the PCB fairly compact. Doing anything more than the above or going off board with a bus requires buffers. You'll find there are few if any absolute rules on the subject but lots and lots of opinions. If you examine the IBM XT motherboard schematic, you'll see it uses many buffer chips -- primarily due to the DRAM, ISA bus interface, and decent sized PCB. On the WaveMate Bullet schematic, it has many buffers to for similar reasons. There is only so big you can make the PCB and only so much current can be sunk before the signals start to degrade. If you want to avoid buffers, think 1) small PCB, 2) small number of chips, and 3) shortest wiring connections as possible. Thanks and good luck with your project! Andrew Lynch From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jun 16 21:16:01 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 20:16:01 -0600 Subject: non-CP/M Z80 board In-Reply-To: <200806162204.49847.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200806162101.54836.rtellason@verizon.net> <48571935.6030406@jetnet.ab.ca> <200806162204.49847.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <48571E61.4010202@jetnet.ab.ca> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > I'm not familiar with many 6800 designs, but I was somewhat surprised to see > how limited some parts are, like the 8085 in the "8085 Cookbook" where you > could really get away with very little. OTOH, the c64 doesn't use any > buffering _at all_ and yet the CPU in there seems to have little trouble > driving 3 ROM chips, a set of 8 4164s, plus all the peripherals. I'm > guessing that the Z80 is probably somewhere in between, and that the > datasheet probalby won't give me the whole story anyhow. > > I think the PADS PCB demo program has Z80 cpu controler already designed to save you some work. I suspect there is a PCB already done on the internet for you. I don't have time now to look as am going grocery shopping now. From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Jun 16 21:29:02 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 22:29:02 -0400 Subject: non-CP/M Z80 board In-Reply-To: <48571E61.4010202@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200806162101.54836.rtellason@verizon.net> <200806162204.49847.rtellason@verizon.net> <48571E61.4010202@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200806162229.03225.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 16 June 2008 22:16, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > I'm not familiar with many 6800 designs, but I was somewhat surprised to > > see how limited some parts are, like the 8085 in the "8085 Cookbook" > > where you could really get away with very little. OTOH, the c64 doesn't > > use any buffering _at all_ and yet the CPU in there seems to have little > > trouble driving 3 ROM chips, a set of 8 4164s, plus all the > > peripherals. I'm guessing that the Z80 is probably somewhere in between, > > and that the datasheet probalby won't give me the whole story anyhow. > > I think the PADS PCB demo program has Z80 cpu controler already designed > to save you some work. I suspect there is a PCB already done on the > internet for you. I don't have time now to look as am going grocery > shopping now. Guess I should've mentioned wire-wrap in there someplace too... :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From evan at snarc.net Mon Jun 16 22:24:58 2008 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 23:24:58 -0400 Subject: History of AMP? Message-ID: <005801c8d029$b9f35e30$f750f945@evan> Per the subject line ... does anyone know of a good history of AMP? Either online or in book form ... From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Jun 16 22:28:01 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 23:28:01 -0400 Subject: Fixing a DEC Letterwriter (LA100) Message-ID: <01C8D008.CDC03260@host-208-72-123-89.dyn.295.ca> ---------ORIGINAL MESSAGE: Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 22:23:39 +0200 From: "Steve Maddison" Subject: Re: Fixing a DEC Letterwriter (LA100) 2008/6/16 M H Stein : > Various patterns of DSR and POWER/FAULT flashing are the diagnostic > failure codes; what pattern do you have that is not documented? > > Defective RAM is 8 flashes BTW. Yep, I figured that one out the long way. I only have some user docs so this wasn't listed, just things like "out of paper" and "cover open". I'm now back to the original CTS and ONLINE combination (no flashing). --------REPLY: POWER/FAULT not flashing should indicate that it has passed POST; DSR means what you'd think, that DSR is active. Looks like it thinks everything's OK. 1 to 9 flashes indicate faults with ROMS 1 to 7 & normal/extended RAM. Steady flash, no bell: open cover or paper fault. Steady flash w/bell: head jam or servo motor/encoder m From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Jun 16 22:29:14 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 23:29:14 -0400 Subject: non-CP/M Z80 board Message-ID: <01C8D008.CEC51F40@host-208-72-123-89.dyn.295.ca> --------ORIGINAL MESSAGE: Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 22:04:49 -0400 From: "Roy J. Tellason" Subject: Re: non-CP/M Z80 board I'm not familiar with many 6800 designs, but I was somewhat surprised to see how limited some parts are, like the 8085 in the "8085 Cookbook" where you could really get away with very little. OTOH, the c64 doesn't use any buffering _at all_ and yet the CPU in there seems to have little trouble driving 3 ROM chips, a set of 8 4164s, plus all the peripherals. I'm guessing that the Z80 is probably somewhere in between, and that the datasheet probalby won't give me the whole story anyhow. --------REPLY: Don't forget that CPUs like the 8085 need data/address MUX chips anyway, which are usually also buffers. m From evan at snarc.net Mon Jun 16 22:31:45 2008 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 23:31:45 -0400 Subject: History of AMP? In-Reply-To: <005801c8d029$b9f35e30$f750f945@evan> Message-ID: <006001c8d02a$ac91cfa0$f750f945@evan> I did it again .... pressed 'send' before searching thoroughly enough... If anyone is interested, I found these two links: http://www.historyfactory.com/index.aspx?sectionid=25&casestudyid=2 http://www.bmes.org/WhitakerArchives/glance/wfhistory.html -----Original Message----- From: Evan Koblentz [mailto:evan at snarc.net] Sent: Monday, June 16, 2008 11:25 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: History of AMP? Per the subject line ... does anyone know of a good history of AMP? Either online or in book form ... From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 16 22:54:18 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 20:54:18 -0700 Subject: CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board In-Reply-To: <200806170214.m5H2ElCI083783@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200806170214.m5H2ElCI083783@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4856D2FA.26537.78F329A@cclist.sydex.com> > From: "Eric Smith" > Whether DMA is required or not has nothing to do with which member of > the 177x/179x/279x/MB88xx family you use. It's determined by whether > you can write tight enough transfer loops to avoid write underruns and > read overruns. More or less what I was trying to say (however clumsily). > On either processor, unrolling the loop does not shave off enough cycles > to get to the 8" double density transfer rate. For more conversation on transfer loop speeds, see my comments on Herb Johnson's Retrotechnology site. By getting clever with code, you can turn in some pretty fast transfer loops even on a lowly 2 MHz 8080. For example, if we assume that the controller will assert wait states if an input is attempted on the data port until a byte becomes available and interrupts on operation complete, a 2MHz 8080 transfer loop could handle an 8" MFM transfer like this: LXI H,floppy$byte floppy$byte: clocks 2mhz IN fdcport ;FDC port 10 5 uS PUSH PSW ;store 2 bytes 11 5.5 uS PCHL ;loop 5 2.5 uS Total: 26 13 uS Now, of course, you've got to unravel what you've got on the stack to get your data back, but you've gotten it--at 2MHz and on an 8080 yet. Caveat: I haven't tried this, except on paper. If you were to unroll the loop to a series of IN/PUSH pairs, the byte time should drop to 10.5 usec, more than fast enough for an 8" MFM transfer. But that discussion's from the days when silicon was expensive. An inexpensive async FIFO would get rid of the problem entirely and allow for transfer at one's convenience. The point that I was trying to make was that the 1770/2/3 make for very easy interfacing with a minimum of parts--and are very easy to program. They feature a small package and were designed for 5.25"/3.5" drives. Were I prototyping a small PCB with a Z80 and floppy support, they'd be my first choice. Cheers, Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Jun 16 23:50:02 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 21:50:02 -0700 Subject: Apple I back up on ebay In-Reply-To: <48568A2A.2070508@bitsavers.org> References: <48568A2A.2070508@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > From: aek at bitsavers.org > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220246863432 > > only change from the original listing (along with dropping the price). > > "Up for bids is an Apple I Computer, many experts believe to be infact a good > reproduction (of witch about 150 where made - my knowledge of more info is > limited) in good shape. One of the genuine ones recently reported selling > for in excess of $50,000, and with good reason, experts believe there is only > 20-30 in existence of the original 200 handmade by Steve Jobs and Steve > Wozniak in early 1976." > Hi He just lost my vote. He knows quite well that it is the exact same board that was a copy. He's making it sound like there is some doubt. What a sleeze! Dwight _________________________________________________________________ It?s easy to add contacts from Facebook and other social sites through Windows Live? Messenger. Learn how. https://www.invite2messenger.net/im/?source=TXT_EML_WLH_LearnHow From rborsuk at colourfull.com Tue Jun 17 00:00:55 2008 From: rborsuk at colourfull.com (Robert Borsuk) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 01:00:55 -0400 Subject: SBC6120 (Dec PDP 8 on a chip) on ebay Message-ID: <7C13C2B2-B2E8-4C72-948A-0C69C5722E66@colourfull.com> Hi All, Never got around to assembling my Spare Time Gizmos SBC6120. Just put it on ebay if anyones interested. Item #300234398483 Rob Rob Borsuk email: rborsuk at colourfull.com Colourfull Creations Web: http://www.colourfull.com From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jun 17 00:27:21 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 22:27:21 -0700 Subject: Apple I back up on ebay In-Reply-To: <553E7CF1-0459-4818-BF86-E39A67248149@neurotica.com> References: <200806161408453.SM02676@[63.69.23.239]> <4856AEA5.5050203@jetnet.ab.ca> <40E8232C-C19C-4C03-9DE0-019D0B197BE0@neurotica.com> <4856C8FC.1070406@jetnet.ab.ca> <553E7CF1-0459-4818-BF86-E39A67248149@neurotica.com> Message-ID: Hi One might check out: http://www.newtontalk.net/archive/newtontalk.2006-02/0072.html Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Instantly invite friends from Facebook and other social networks to join you on Windows Live? Messenger. https://www.invite2messenger.net/im/?source=TXT_EML_WLH_InviteFriends From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Jun 15 13:19:35 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 14:19:35 -0400 Subject: CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board Message-ID: <0K2I00LZJNXGZ300@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board > From: "bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca" > Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 11:06:33 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Andrew Lynch wrote: >> -----REPLY----- >> >> Hi! Thanks Jim for the comments. Please let me address the issues raised >> by Ben: >> >> If you look closely at the SBC design, you'll notice it has a feature even >> better than a floppy controller -- it has a fully buffered IO bus! It >> contains all the Z80 signals brought out to the DIN 41612 connector. The >> peripheral bus adheres to the published ECB standard. >> >> If you want floppy IO, the solution is simple -- just design one and attach >> it to the bus! I have already done this with my Disk IO board (IDE and >> NEC765 FDC) which plugs into my home brew ECB backplane along with the SBC. >> Assuming there is enough interest in these home brew SBCs, I hope to make a >> PCB version of the Disk IO board. >> >Well when you get a PCB of the Disk I/O board , I'll take the set of PCB's. >Will a 8272 (intel) Disk controler replace the NEC765? for the floppy >controler The 8272 and 765 are interchangeable and available. If you can find a WD37c65 thats far less pars to implement fdc. Myself I'd suggest to Andrew to not mess with floppy. Everyone has their own idea of what to use and how it should be done and what formats it MUST support. >for the track formatting for CP/M? Unicorn Electronics is my favorite >shopping for electronic parts and I can find a 8272 there. JDRmico has them too. Having done way to many floppy based sytems and having many on hand doing something without the noise, power needs and limited space is a welcome change. Sonmetimes working with cpm is not about floppies but instead the OS itself. Allison > >> >> Yes, this SBC is a slightly modern variation of a vintage Z80 CP/M design. >> I relaxed some of the traditions to make it affordable, reliable, and still >> useful. The P112, while an excellent design and a wonderful SBC, costs $165 >> for a kit when it is available. I know of no other hobbyist Z80 projects >> where one can purchase the PCB. >> >> There are many Z80 designs available, however, without a PCB it means most >> hobbyists will have to use temporary breadboards, wire wrap, or prototype >> boards. None of those lend themselves to long term reliable solutions -- >> especially for a wide range of hobbyist builders. >> >> The SBC PCB is meant to be *low cost* and the *common* element of a home >> brew computer with *simple* IO. Adding unnecessary and complex IO >> peripherals increases PCB area and cost, raises part count, and pushes away >> the hobbyists it is meant for. >> >> Selecting IO has to be done very carefully. Not everyone who builds this >> SBC wants floppy IO. I have had numerous requests for many forms of IO >> ranging from SCSI, IDE, floppy, CF, SD, USB, the Zilog peripherals, etc. >> There is no solution which will satisfy everyone. >> >> Implementing floppy IO can take on many variations and picking the FDC is >> just the first of many challenges [FDC1793? NEC765? SMC9266? WD2797?]. What >> about the data separator? Few chips remain and viable sources are scarce. >> Even integrated FDCs with built in data separators are not readily >> available. >> >> Please remember, this is a *home brew* computer project -- a *real* Z80 >> running CP/M 2.2 on *real* hardware. It is what you make of it. If all you >> want is a PC CP/M emulator then this project is not for you. >> >> Thanks and have a nice day! >> >> Andrew Lynch >> >> >> From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Jun 15 18:35:46 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 19:35:46 -0400 Subject: CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board Message-ID: <0K2J00B412VJNJ70@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board > From: "Roy J. Tellason" > Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 17:22:48 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Sunday 15 June 2008 16:43, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> From: "Andrew Lynch" >> >> > Implementing floppy IO can take on many variations and picking the FDC >> > is just the first of many challenges [FDC1793? NEC765? SMC9266? >> > WD2797?]. What about the data separator? Few chips remain and viable >> > sources are scarce. Even integrated FDCs with built in data separators >> > are not readily available. >> >> The WD1770/1772/1773 is still my favorite "almost no external >> circuitry" chip, but they're getting harder to find, in spite of >> being used on Atari and Commodore boxes. You don't need to buffer >> the floppy interface and the things have integrated data separators-- >> and come in a 28-pin package. > >I thought it was the 179x parts that had the data separator on-chip, no? No. 1770 did as did 2793... Allison > >-- >Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and >ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can >be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" >- >Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James >M Dakin From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Jun 15 21:11:33 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 22:11:33 -0400 Subject: Emailing: CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board.htm In-Reply-To: <4855BC69.9060003@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4855BC69.9060003@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4855CBD5.9050403@bellatlantic.net> bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > Andrew Lynch wrote: >> That means compromises had to be made and some stuff had to go. >> Anyone can design a great computer on paper. Making a real, tangible >> part >> is a lot more difficult. >> >> Using cool sounding but almost impossible to find parts seems easy but it >> makes the SBC practically worthless. >> >> If you can make a low cost Z80 SBC that includes floppy IO, I would >> love to >> see it. I'd even buy one or two. >> > But when you think about it, most early CP/M machines were > 8 inch single density. Not much on a disk and that I think is > the basic format to look at. I think I seen a data separator > using a 16 bit counter at 4x? the data rate but I can't remember > where. Have you ever used 8"SSSD to do anything that required space? There isn't enough space to run a disassembled version of the BDOS through ASM unless you have at least two drives and don't mind doing cleanup. Yes you can roll your own data sep it only needs three ttl packages. With all the other hardware needed for the 765 case you end up with at least 10 chips though If you willing to miss a few features it's been done in 7 plus the FDC and that doesn't include the bus side of the FDC interface. >> I look forward to seeing your design. >> >> Thanks and have a nice day! >> >> > I can't say I am having a nice day. > I am still grumbling over not getting PAD's > PCB and LAYOUT software when I could in > the late 80's. I am looking to do a 16 bit > (2901) cpu using EEPROM (2kx8 250 ns) > and am still trying to find a schematic capture > and PCB layout program that I can afford > with through the whole parts. > Sadly all seem to be Australia. :( > Kicad for linux there are other like cadstd for winders. Of course the last 2901 design I'd done in the early 80s was with paper and pen! It's doable that way. FYI using 250nS eproms will make it terminally slow unless you do two things, use a wide microword 64bits or more and pipeline the address and decode so you can work right to the eprom Tacc minimum limit. Allison >> Andrew Lynch >> >> >> > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Jun 16 19:06:07 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 20:06:07 -0400 Subject: CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board Message-ID: <0K2K00HOCYY13M91@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board > From: "Eric Smith" > Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 13:58:30 -0700 (PDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Chuck wrote: >> the 1770/72/73 have just about everything in a neat little 28-pin package. >[...] >> DMA not required. > >Whether DMA is required or not has nothing to do with which member of >the 177x/179x/279x/MB88xx family you use. It's determined by whether >you can write tight enough transfer loops to avoid write underruns and >read overruns. > >On a 6502 a typical read transfer loop takes a minimum of 22 cycles, >so a 1 MHz 6502 can keep up with 5.25 inch single and double density and >8 inch single density with programmed I/O. 8 inch double-density >requires a faster processor, DMA, or special tricks. > >With a Z80 a typical read transfer loop takes a minimum of 52 clocks, >which on a 2 MHz Z80 meets the requirements for all but 8" double density, >which requires a faster processor, DMA, or special tricks. > >On either processor, unrolling the loop does not shave off enough cycles >to get to the 8" double density transfer rate. > >Note that the read loop has to be capable of reading bytes at about >20% faster than the nominal rate or overruns become likely. > > nominal nominal required read loop > format xfer rate byte time byte time > ---------- ---------- --------- ------------------- > 5.25" FM 125 Kbps 64 us 52 us > 5.25" MFM 250 Kbps 32 us 26 us > 8" FM 250 Kpbs 32 us 26 us > 8" MFM 500 Kbps 16 us 13 us > >> The 765-based all-in-ones such as the National 8473 and the WD37C65A >> are about as hard to obtain and are a little more difficult to >> interface to a Z80 (just about require DMA and interrupts to work >> right). > >The 765-based controllers work fine with or without DMA. Again, the >issue is the data rate. > >Eric You hit the nail on the head. Interfacing 765 or 179x or any of the other flavors is about the same from the bus side be it 8080/8085/z80 or 6502. As long as you can poll within the minimum read/write loop time it's fairly easy. If not in the 8080/8085/z80 world you can use processor ready line to do a stall-wait on DRQ to keep the loop in sync and save some 22 T-states. I forget if 6502 has a ready wait line. >From a simple SBC perspective even the 1770 series requires some glue and will inflate the parts count a fair amount. The more common 1793 or 765 will require enough parts to double or triple the parts count. All of the 37C65 (and 37C665) parts work ok (witness the P112) but go scarce as the PC industry drives their existance and disappearance. Easy yes, simple, only if your not doing the work. However add a floppy and who's supporting all them when someone wants to interface some oddball pertec or CDC or Amdek 3" that "doesnt work with the SBC floppy"? I've built my fill of floppy based, IDE based, CF based, ROMdisk based systems and the latter two are far easier to construct and get going and if your trying to run CP/M and mess with programming and applications the smaller lower power SBC can be its own form of fun as you can put it in a small box with a wall wart and use the laptop as a terminal anywhere. Having a few PX-8s, Darth Vaders lubch boxes and S100 systems with all the disks and what not is fine but when you want to move them it's not so fun using hand truck. Where my tiny Z80 with 32MB CF in a 5x4x1.5" box is rather fun to bring and show CP/M and what it can still do, on batteries! Allison From derschjo at msu.edu Sun Jun 15 01:38:52 2008 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2008 23:38:52 -0700 Subject: 9-track BOT/EOT markers? In-Reply-To: <478067.35706.qm@web35306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <478067.35706.qm@web35306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4854B8FC.5060400@msu.edu> Excellent! Thank you (and Al!) for the information. Now -- where can I find new BOT/EOT marker foil or a reasonable facsimile? :) Josh Lee Courtney wrote: > Congrats Josh. I have a 7980H (HP-IB), nice drives. > > You'll find answers to where BOT/EOT markers go on p3-12 in http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/tape/88780-90010_UsersMan_May90.pdf > > You'll may also find this useful: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/tape/07980-90030_88780Svc_Oct91.pdf > > Don't thank me, thank Al. > > CHeers, > > Lee C. > > --- On Fri, 6/13/08, Josh Dersch wrote: > > >> From: Josh Dersch >> Subject: 9-track BOT/EOT markers? >> To: "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> Date: Friday, June 13, 2008, 10:32 PM >> Hey all -- >> >> Got myself an HP 7980S 9-track drive (always wanted a >> 9-track drive...) >> and accidentally mangled my one and only 9-track tape just >> after the BOT >> marker (not sure what caused it, maybe the drive needs a >> bit of >> adjustment...). So I have two questions: Where can I find >> a reasonable >> replacement for the marker, and where does it go? I see >> the sense foil >> on the part of the tape that got mangled, but I don't >> know what side of >> the tape it was originally on... >> >> Thanks! >> Josh >> >> P.S. The magical tape autoloading thing this drive does is >> the coolest >> thing I've seen in a long time :). >> > > > From derschjo at msu.edu Sun Jun 15 02:17:54 2008 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 00:17:54 -0700 Subject: Anyone need a TI Professional PC monitor & video card? Message-ID: <4854C222.2040301@msu.edu> Picked up what turned out to be a video card & monitor for a TI Professional PC, thinking I might be able to use it in one of my old PCs to experiment with one of the "also rans" of the early PC video card biz :). Unfortunately while it may be ISA compatible (is it?), the card is longer than the standard "full length" and it won't fit into any of my machines. No idea if it works, monitor powers up OK. If you want it, it's yours. It's in the Seattle area. Let me know, Josh From charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com Sun Jun 15 12:16:08 2008 From: charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 10:16:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: big bucks for a Tek computer on eBay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <943406.38447.qm@web35306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Was this the Tektronix graphics terminal based on the design Len Shustek (http://www.computerhistory.org/trustee/Leonard,Shustek/) and Forest Baskett did at Stanford (http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=563316&dl=GUIDE&dl=ACM) and then licensed to Tektronix? Microprocessors are wrong, but the dates seem to align. Lee C. --- On Sun, 6/15/08, Richard wrote: > From: Richard > Subject: Re: big bucks for a Tek computer on eBay > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Sunday, June 15, 2008, 8:16 AM > In article > <637329.13632.qm at web65501.mail.ac4.yahoo.com>, > Chris M writes: > > > Man it would have been nice to own one of these: > > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=220243243508&ssPageNa > me=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=012 > > > > or item # 220243243508 > > > > apparently 6800 based. O woe is me. 322$ + 90$ > > shipping. O woe is me. > > > > why are these things so rare? sniff > > They're rare for the usual reasons: not many of them > sold in the first > place and when RAM prices came down, raster graphics > systems pushed > them out of the marketplace and killed off all the storage > scope > stuff. Frankly, I'm surprised that as much storage > scope based > Tektronix gear still exists, given that the transition to > raster was > 20+ years ago. You can still find these systems, but > usually only > from other collectors. Tektronix graphics gear is cool > enough that > people usually salvage it from the scrap path. I got a > 4051 recently, > but it needs some repairs. I got it from another collector > via a 3rd > collector :-). Except for the Tektronix raster terminals I > got from > dovebid, getting things from other "savers" is > the only way I've been > able to get Tektronix storage scope stuff. > > That's a good price for that unit, assuming it still > works. The BASIC > interpreter is in ROM, so you don't need the tape to > enter programs > and make them work. The tape is the local storage for it. > I haven't > done much with mine yet, but I hope to restore it to full > function at > some point. I do have the service manual for the 4051 and > its also on > bitsavers. See > > -- > "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 > draft available for download > > > > Legalize Adulthood! > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Jun 15 13:26:41 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 15 Jun 2008 11:26:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: any building 6800 sbc's out there? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <823793.92384.qm@web65516.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> just curious. When I started piddling around with this stuff in the late 80's I guess, that was one of the chips I intended to use as the basis for probably a small breadboarded computer. Never got around to it. But I did *swipe* a coco off of a friend and played with that for a spell (6809 based). Close enough! :) From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Jun 15 23:18:23 2008 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 00:18:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Fixing a DEC Letterwriter (LA100) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200806160421.AAA14743@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > You know, I can't rememebr the face of somebody I met yesterday, but > I rarely forget a scheamtic. It's a matter of what's important to you. :) I have trouble remembering names, but I can still recall root passwords from 20+ years ago. (The first one I ever knew, for example, was "royal" - which I don't mind saying because that was at least four or five forklift upgrades, and multiple dozens of root password changes, ago at that place...which I know because I was there for many of them.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From tonym at compusource.net Tue Jun 17 01:48:41 2008 From: tonym at compusource.net (tonym) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 06:48:41 GMT Subject: Apple I back up on ebay Message-ID: <20080617024878.SM05848@[63.69.23.239]> Now it looks like his buddies are doing the "ask seller a question" One says: "Hello Sir, I am an expert in vintage computers, and you sir have the real deal, this is not a fake. The style of the board will show, and the use of vintage chips. Good luck" Wow - some expert. Actually, from the wording, sounds like that person wants to send a certified check for 3 times the amount, and then send the balance to his shipper in ....... Wish we knew who THAT was, so we know who else to avoid! There's also: "This looks like its the true Apple 1, how can you say its not?" What a scammer... Tony -----Original Message----- From: dwight elvey dkelvey at hotmail.com Sent 6/17/2008 1:27:21 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: RE: Apple I back up on ebay Hi One might check out: http://www.newtontalk.net/archive/newtontalk.2006-02/0072.html Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Instantly invite friends from Facebook and other social networks to join you on Windows Live" Messenger. https://www.invite2messenger.net/im/?source=TXT_EML_WLH_InviteFriends From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Tue Jun 17 03:04:45 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 08:04:45 +0000 Subject: SBC6120 (Dec PDP 8 on a chip) on ebay In-Reply-To: <7C13C2B2-B2E8-4C72-948A-0C69C5722E66@colourfull.com> References: <7C13C2B2-B2E8-4C72-948A-0C69C5722E66@colourfull.com> Message-ID: <20080617080445.GB2441@usap.gov> On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 01:00:55AM -0400, Robert Borsuk wrote: > Hi All, > Never got around to assembling my Spare Time Gizmos SBC6120. > Just put it on ebay if anyones interested. > Item #300234398483 Very nice. Mine are the older, buff-colored no-soldermask version. The board looks great with a solder mask. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 17-Jun-2008 at 08:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -61.6 F (-52.0 C) Windchill -90.0 F (-67.8 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 7.4 kts Grid 346 Barometer 672.9 mb (10897 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From steve at cosam.org Tue Jun 17 04:07:24 2008 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 11:07:24 +0200 Subject: Fixing a DEC Letterwriter (LA100) In-Reply-To: <4856ECC3.6010301@bitsavers.org> References: <4856ECC3.6010301@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <95838e090806170207y54f07505i2165a6cb7e9957a2@mail.gmail.com> 2008/6/17 Al Kossow : > I just put a few documents up under > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/terminal/la100 > that might be helpful. Many thanks - there are a couple of things in the service manual I can try out. -- Steve Maddison http://www.cosam.org/ From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Tue Jun 17 05:05:53 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 10:05:53 +0000 Subject: Zork for CP/M setup question Message-ID: <20080617100553.GA31512@usap.gov> Hi, All, With all the CP/M questions flying around (and some by me), I ran across an interesting archive at one of the CP/M respositories - Infocom games *plus* setup files for random CP/M environments. The source provided starts like this: ;Copyright 1982 Infocom, Inc. All rights reserved. ;Configuration Program for INTERLOGIC(tm) CP/M Files ;Configured for basic no-frills terminal ;This program should be edited to specify terminal and ;printer parameters for your CP/M system. Edit this ;file, then assemble, load, and run the program. ;Complete documentation of the setup procedure will ;be found in your INTERLOGIC Reference Card. ;Terminal and printer specific parameters start at ;the label CPMCPL, about 20 lines below. Nothing ;prior to that label should be altered. ... and what follows are a set of data storage spots to fill in with who-knows-what to customize interpreter behavior for your environment. Does anyone have a copy of the aforementioned "INTERLOGIC Reference Card" for CP/M versions of the games? I'm running things under the altair/altairz80 emulators that are part of SIMH. I have CP/M, etc., working fine - I just need the text from the Infocom reference card that would have come in the game box. Thanks, -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 17-Jun-2008 at 10:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -64.8 F (-53.8 C) Windchill -92.1 F (-69.0 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 6.5 kts Grid 351 Barometer 673.2 mb (10886 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Jun 17 09:18:51 2008 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 10:18:51 -0400 Subject: non-CP/M Z80 board In-Reply-To: <48576E6A.7070404@iais.fraunhofer.de> References: <200806162101.54836.rtellason@verizon.net> <48571935.6030406@jetnet.ab.ca> <200806162204.49847.rtellason@verizon.net> <48576E6A.7070404@iais.fraunhofer.de> Message-ID: <4857C7CB.8080800@verizon.net> Holger Veit wrote: > Roy J. Tellason schrieb: >> I'm not familiar with many 6800 designs, but I was somewhat >> surprised to see how limited some parts are, like the 8085 in the >> "8085 Cookbook" where you could really get away with very little. >> OTOH, the c64 doesn't use any buffering _at all_ and yet the CPU in >> there seems to have little trouble driving 3 ROM chips, a set of 8 >> 4164s, plus all the peripherals. I'm guessing that the Z80 is >> probably somewhere in between, and that the datasheet probalby won't >> give me the whole story anyhow > The plain 6800 is not a good example to compare to the 8085; from its > generation it rather relates to the 8080 three-chip system. Compare > the 8085 to the 6802, and you'll get a minimum 2-chip system 6802-6846 > like the 8085-8355 pair. Using EPROMs rather than mask ROMs will > expand the chipcount similarly in both ways. > > The C64 does not use the 1st generation 6502, but rather a modified > 8502 CPU with different electrical specifications, so I guess it was > explicitly designed to be able to drive its special C64 peripherals. > It will, admittedly run into problems though with own extensions, e.g. > replacements of the onboard ROMs and additions to the external > expansion port. > > The Z80 has also undergone several modifications throughout its first > version, which may or may not resulted in higher fanout. > for Z80 the consideration is clock speed (parts exist to 10mhz) and wich process (Nmos, NmosII or CMOS). > For all of them, one also has to consider that nowadays one won't use > the circuitry that was used 20/30 years ago any longer, but use modern > chips. This starts with low power HCT TTL, one will avoid DRAMs of > that time like a plague now, using monolithic 512KB SRAMs instead, and > maybe replace glue logic entirely with LP-CPLDs which can drive much > more loads. > Eactly. The biggest consideration is capacitive loading as CMOS draws no static current but the input still has capacitance that has impact with dynamic changes. so If you run the cpu slower than spec you can often "overload" the bus capacitively and have it work. Use care and make sure all the ground paths are very heavy for best results. For practical small systems using z80, 6502 or 8085 and modern memory buffering is generally not needed unless your driviing cable or going off board. Allison > Regards > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jun 17 10:18:33 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 08:18:33 -0700 Subject: Apple I back up on ebay In-Reply-To: <20080617024878.SM05848@[63.69.23.239]> References: <20080617024878.SM05848@[63.69.23.239]> Message-ID: > From: tonym at compusource.net > > Now it looks like his buddies are doing the "ask seller a question" > Hi Evan Is there still any doubt in your mind about this seller? Dwight _________________________________________________________________ The i?m Talkathon starts 6/24/08.? For now, give amongst yourselves. http://www.imtalkathon.com?source=TXT_EML_WLH_LearnMore_GiveAmongst From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Jun 17 10:23:47 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 08:23:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IDT tape drive information Message-ID: <191505.8126.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I'm looking at buying an IDT (Innovative Data Technology) tape drive, model TD-1054/INTL. I don't have any information on it other than that. It's a manual thread drive, and appears to be 800/1600bpi. But, what I can't tell from the seller's pictures is the interface. He thinks it's Pertec, but doesn't know. I don't have a formatter board, all my machines are set up to communicate with formatted Pertec drives. It _appears_ to have two 50 pin connectors on the board, but it looks like a couple of the fingers aren't populated. I don't remember ever seeing a Pertec drive like that. (but I could be wrong...) I've emailed the seller asking for a better picture, but I was hoping that someone here might have some knowledge about this drive. Thanks! -Ian From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jun 17 11:09:33 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 10:09:33 -0600 Subject: Emailing: CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board.htm In-Reply-To: <4855CBD5.9050403@bellatlantic.net> References: <4855BC69.9060003@jetnet.ab.ca> <4855CBD5.9050403@bellatlantic.net> Message-ID: <4857E1BD.80008@jetnet.ab.ca> Allison wrote: > > Have you ever used 8"SSSD to do anything that required space? There > isn't > enough space to run a disassembled version of the BDOS through ASM > unless you have at least two drives and don't mind doing cleanup. > I never could run the CP/M system I was using for more than 30 minutes with out the floppy stepper sticking. That was fun working with it. Still how do you transfer stuff from a floppy ( or file online ) to a CP/M system with no external I/O devices? > Yes you can roll your own data sep it only needs three ttl packages. > With all the other hardware needed for the 765 case you end up with at > least 10 chips > though If you willing to miss a few features it's been done in 7 plus > the FDC > and that doesn't include the bus side of the FDC interface. > That I would like to see. > > Kicad for linux there are other like cadstd for winders. > Of course the last 2901 design I'd done in the early 80s was > with paper and pen! It's doable that way. I still am using paper & pen. Mind you I have to buy JAPANESE pens since the quality of the USA stuff is all cheap Chinese imports. Now that I have a serious cad program - DIPTRACE on order I think I will put the design in hardware. > FYI using 250nS eproms will make it terminally slow unless > you do two things, use a wide microword 64bits or more and > pipeline the address and decode so you can work right to the > eprom Tacc minimum limit. I got that covered if I read the 2901 data sheets correctly. I will be using a 6809 style memory cycle optimized for D-RAM access and clock the 2901 in 4th phase of the memory cycle. This is retro computing project for the feel of the late 1970's not using a 8 bit CPU. I am aming for a 800ns memory cycle and the slow access of micro-code is not a problem. The only thing pipelined is the next memory cycle - Read/Write/Refesh and the default is refresh while doing the the 1st cycle of op-code decoding. The front panel does RUN/STOP, Single Instruction,Address Load, Deposit,Read. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jun 17 11:19:25 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 09:19:25 -0700 Subject: IDT tape drive information Message-ID: <4857E40D.6020403@bitsavers.org> This should be a Pertec formatted 800/1600bpi drive. I have a slightly earlier version. I'm pretty sure I have a manual for it, will dig around.. Curiously, I wasn't able to get it to work correctly with a Pertec to SCSI converter out of a Qualstar transport. From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Tue Jun 17 12:08:00 2008 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 19:08:00 +0200 Subject: any building 6800 sbc's out there? In-Reply-To: <823793.92384.qm@web65516.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> References: <823793.92384.qm@web65516.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: From: "Chris M" Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 8:26 PM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: any building 6800 sbc's out there? > just curious. When I started piddling around with this > stuff in the late 80's I guess, that was one of the > chips I intended to use as the basis for probably a > small breadboarded computer. Never got around to it. > But I did *swipe* a coco off of a friend and played > with that for a spell (6809 based). Close enough! :) Hi Chris, not 6800 based, but 6809E ... great CPU (IMHO). Check out www.pdp-11.nl and click the link "my projects" in the navigation at the left side. The first 5 projects are based on a co-development with Vince. It's a fairly cheap, simple 6809 project. Ask Vince for availability of boards ... I guess the stock is almost gone. - Henk From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 17 12:40:18 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 10:40:18 -0700 Subject: non-CP/M Z80 board In-Reply-To: <200806171614.m5HGEF7t020475@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200806171614.m5HGEF7t020475@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <48579492.7386.A836BA0@cclist.sydex.com> IIRC, when there was only the NMOS Z80/Z80A parts, this was one of the reasons for the popularity of the Intel 8085. You could put together a functional system for a dedicated application with some of the made-for-8085 peripherals (e.g. 8155, 8355, 8755), with a very low chip count compared to what's needed for an equivalent Z80 implementation. Cheers, Chuck From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Tue Jun 17 12:45:02 2008 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 13:45:02 -0400 Subject: any building 6800 sbc's out there? In-Reply-To: References: <823793.92384.qm@web65516.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4affc5e0806171045t117e8313q7e3703212ef1b651@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 1:08 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > not 6800 based, but 6809E ... great CPU (IMHO). > Check out www.pdp-11.nl and click the link "my projects" in the navigation > at the left side. The first 5 projects are based on a co-development with > Vince. It's a fairly cheap, simple 6809 project. > Ask Vince for availability of boards ... I guess the stock is almost gone. Not sure it's cheating... but my first major project while I was in the final year of my B.Eng (1995) was to design a 68HC11 based board - but still using the external address and data bus. External components on the bus were 2 8255's, and an EPROM, IIRC (I still have all the paper design files somewhere). I think the entire thing was hand routed. The thing saw production and maybe a hundred or so units were built, and I think some of those are still in use. I later implemented the same functionality with two PICs. That design was far cheaper, easier to build and more successful. I came to loathe the 8255. A design decision based on price and availability, causing endless headaches - IIRC a configuration change would reset the output buffers or some similar brain-dead behavior. I think these days educational 68HC11/12 SBC's are still easy to find on the used market. Engineering departments in universities and tech schools were flooded with those things... I have 2 M68HC12A4EVBs on my shelf that were retired from our undergrad program years ago. Yeah, not the same as wiring up your own DRAM, but still fun toys :-) Joe. From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Jun 17 12:49:58 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 13:49:58 -0400 Subject: non-CP/M Z80 board In-Reply-To: <48579492.7386.A836BA0@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200806171614.m5HGEF7t020475@dewey.classiccmp.org> <48579492.7386.A836BA0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200806171349.59267.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 17 June 2008 13:40, Chuck Guzis wrote: > IIRC, when there was only the NMOS Z80/Z80A parts, this was one of > the reasons for the popularity of the Intel 8085. You could put > together a functional system for a dedicated application with some of > the made-for-8085 peripherals (e.g. 8155, 8355, 8755), with a very > low chip count compared to what's needed for an equivalent Z80 > implementation. Are those parts even around any more though? Easy enough to find? I haven't looked in a while... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jun 17 12:52:41 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 10:52:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board In-Reply-To: <0K2J00B412VJNJ70@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0K2J00B412VJNJ70@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <20080617105118.A90465@shell.lmi.net> > >> the floppy interface and the things have integrated data separators-- > >I thought it was the 179x parts that had the data separator on-chip, no? On Sun, 15 Jun 2008, Allison wrote: > No. 1770 did as did 2793... The 1771 CLAIMED to have an integrated data separator. Percom made a lot of their income peddling add-on data separators for it. From vrs at msn.com Tue Jun 17 13:24:56 2008 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 11:24:56 -0700 Subject: any building 6800 sbc's out there? References: <823793.92384.qm@web65516.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: From: "Henk Gooijen" > not 6800 based, but 6809E ... great CPU (IMHO). > Check out www.pdp-11.nl and click the link "my projects" in the navigation > at the left side. The first 5 projects are based on a co-development with > Vince. It's a fairly cheap, simple 6809 project. > Ask Vince for availability of boards ... I guess the stock is almost gone. Boards are available, but not parts kits. Unless there is sufficient interest to warrant ordering some more parts and building parts kits, of course :-). I currently have 10 each of the bare cpu and I/O boards. Vince From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 17 13:29:52 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 11:29:52 -0700 Subject: CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board In-Reply-To: <200806171614.m5HGEF7t020475@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200806171614.m5HGEF7t020475@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4857A030.15430.AB0CF2F@cclist.sydex.com> Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 20:06:07 -0400 From: Allison > I've built my fill of floppy based, IDE based, CF based, ROMdisk based > systems and the latter two are far easier to construct and get going > and if your trying to run CP/M and mess with programming and > applications the smaller lower power SBC can be its own form of fun as > you can put it in a small box with a wall wart and use the laptop as a > terminal anywhere. Having a few PX-8s, Darth Vaders lubch boxes and > S100 systems with all the disks and what not is fine but when you want > to move them it's not so fun using hand truck. Where my tiny Z80 with > 32MB CF in a 5x4x1.5" box is rather fun to bring and show CP/M and > what it can still do, on batteries! You could simply skip the work with soldering iron and implement the same with an emulator on, say, an iPod Touch, with full color graphics, sound and gigs of memory that runs at many times the speed of the Z80. No need for a terminal--program while you're standing in line at the DMV--and no messy sticking things together with bits of hot metal. But then, why do people on this list collect slow bulky old iron that drink power like there's no tomorrow and require careful nursing of ageing components? I submit that they're not collected (for the most part) to do useful work, but rather to recreate an experience or attempt to gain a shadow of one. I remember that my late father started to collect old radios from the 1920s and then abruptly stopped and disposed of his collection. His reason was that "it just wasn't the same". The radio stations didn't broadcast the same programs and he knew that there was better, easier to use equipment with great fidelity and ease of use. And he wasn't the same kid living in a tenement in 1925, scrounging batteries and odds and ends. So, perhaps even though you're not recreating an accurate circa-1978 CP/M experience Allison, it's just as well. We can't go home again. You don't have an audience with a circa-1978 mindset. Today's audiences have been conditioned by what they have around them. CP/M must seem as quaint as a leisure suit or love beads. Me, I miss the big iron. But even if I owned a full 7090 installation or STAR-100 "supercomputer" and could afford the utility bills to run them, there would always be the itch in the back of my skull that a personal computer could run rings around the behemoths-- and be one heckuva a lot quieter and more reliable. Cheers, Chuck From bob at jfcl.com Tue Jun 17 13:36:00 2008 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 11:36:00 -0700 Subject: SBC6120 (Dec PDP 8 on a chip) on ebay In-Reply-To: <20080617080445.GB2441@usap.gov> References: <7C13C2B2-B2E8-4C72-948A-0C69C5722E66@colourfull.com> <20080617080445.GB2441@usap.gov> Message-ID: <002b01c8d0a9$00c7be80$02573b80$@com> >Ethan Dicks wrote: >Very nice. Mine are the older, buff-colored no-soldermask version. Only the very first run of boards were made without a solder mask - that makes yours a collector's item :-) Bob From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 17 13:53:23 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 11:53:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board In-Reply-To: <0K2K00HOCYY13M91@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0K2K00HOCYY13M91@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <48343.64.62.206.10.1213728803.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Allison wrote: > As long as you can poll within the minimum read/write loop > time it's fairly easy. If not in the 8080/8085/z80 world you can use > processor ready line to do a stall-wait on DRQ to keep the loop in > sync and save some 22 T-states. I think you also need some logic to release the ready line if DRQ doesn't occur but an interrupt does, in order to handle error cases. > I forget if 6502 has a ready wait line. It does, but on the NMOS parts it only can stall read cycles, not writes. (In the early-to-mid 1970s, ROMs and EPROMs were much slower than typical SRAMs, so the designers apparently didn't think there was any need to stall on writes.) For the controller I designed, I dealt with that by having a special address that could be read that only waited for DRQ, at an address in the page below the FDC's data register. By itself, that wasn't sufficient to get to 8" MFM on a 1 MHz 6502. However, by taking advantage of the spurious read that occurs on indexed write instructions when there is a page crossing, I got the read of the special polling adress and the write of the data in a single instruction. That gets it down to 16 cycles, which meets the nominal rate but isn't actually good enough. By unrolling the loop, though, it drops to 13 cycles per byte, which meets all the requirements: LDA (DPTR),Y ; get data byte from buffer STA FDC_SPCL,X ; reads poll location, which stalls, ; then writes data INY The unrolled loop requires 6 bytes of code per byte transferred, which is 1536 bytes for a 256-byte sector. Not great, but it did fit in a 2716 EPROM. I used two 2716s, one containing the read loop and one containing the write loop, both mapped into the same address space and selected by writing to another port address. The rest of the FDC driver fit in the remaining space of the two EPROMs. I didn't anticipate that they would "fix" the RDY behavior and the spurious read on the 65C02, so the same code wouldn't work on that. However, the fix was simply to replace the indexed STA with an absolute STA. Eric From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Jun 17 14:03:30 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 14:03:30 -0500 Subject: CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board In-Reply-To: <4857A030.15430.AB0CF2F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200806171614.m5HGEF7t020475@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4857A030.15430.AB0CF2F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <48580A82.10204@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Me, I miss the big iron. But even if I owned a full 7090 > installation or STAR-100 "supercomputer" and could afford the utility > bills to run them, there would always be the itch in the back of my > skull that a personal computer could run rings around the behemoths-- > and be one heckuva a lot quieter and more reliable. Personally I think I get just as much enjoyment - if not more - out of the sound/feel/smell of an old machine as I do from the actual running of software on it. In other words, all the stuff that a modern machine (either in emulation or with native software), *doesn't* provide. I end up not caring how slow, unreliable, power-hungry or anything else the old system is - it's still more fun! cheers Jules From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jun 17 15:52:42 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 13:52:42 -0700 Subject: IDT tape drive information Message-ID: <4858241A.80809@bitsavers.org> Documentation for the transport and formatter are up now under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/innovativeDataTechnology From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Jun 17 16:43:10 2008 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 22:43:10 +0100 Subject: UK PDP 11/10 - 11/40 NGTE Installations In-Reply-To: <001f01c8c660$082c7330$961ca8c0@mss.local> Message-ID: On 4/6/08 17:28, "Mike Hatch" wrote: > For those intersted in DEC equipment and one aspect of their their usage (UK > I'm afraid) > Details of a now defunct Military installation that used various DEC > computers has recently gone online. > These documents from about 1980 show PDP 11/10's and 11/40's used for jet > engine research and how they were utilised. > I was the tech involved in the installation of the 11/40 in the mid 1970's, > and maintenance at that time of the PDP7, SDS9300 and Elliot 803B systems. I > also lists an ICL1904s running George Mk 8.64. > > It was all decomissioned in 2002, who knows where all the kit went but the > urban explorer forums say it has all gone. Typical UK government, we dont > want it so nobody can have it. Thanks Mike, I'd forgotten I was supposed to try and get round Pyestock with the creator of that site but Life Events got in the way and I even see he hasn't updated it since shortly after said Events. I guess it's all a Tesco warehouse now. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From schwepes at moog.netaxs.com Tue Jun 17 16:45:40 2008 From: schwepes at moog.netaxs.com (schwepes at moog.netaxs.com) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 17:45:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Westinghouse W1642 terminal... any info? In-Reply-To: <547924.62338.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <547924.62338.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Could this thing be doing a modification of the old teletype codes? Sone if the really easier machines used modifications on the Baudaut set. bs On Fri, 13 Jun 2008, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > I posted this over at comp.terminals, but I figured I'd send it out to this list too... > > I've just accquired a Westinghouse W1642 terminal, and I'm looking for > any kind of documentation I can find on it. It's clearly somewhat of a > single purpose terminal, originally used at airlines. The keyboard is > weird, and is missing many "useful" characters, like brackets, > slashes, pipe and comma. Instead, it has various weird symbols, > command keys, and such. It has no shift key, and only displays upper > case. It also appears to support multiple sessions, with keys to > switch between them, and display a split screen mode. Typing in any of > the sessions will echo to the screen, even with nothing connected. > > On the back are four female DB25 connectors - LINE/PRINT, PRINT1, > PRINT2 and AUX. I've tried connecting it up to a computer and sending > text to it, at 9600 baud. Connecting an RS232 cable to AUX causes the > CTRL-DOWN indicator at the bottom of the screen to go away, but only > for the full screen session. Sending random junk to the terminal > through the serial port occasionally is able to bring up a message at > the top, something about an invalid printer, but no other garbage > displays. So far, I've only tried it at 9600 baud, I didn't have time > last night to try other speeds. > > Inside the terminal seems rather conventional, I haven't dismantled it > completely, but near each port is a 75154 (quad line receiver), and it > appears that farther back on the board are other comms chips > (socketed). I was expecting to see 1488/89 pairs, but haven't seen > those in there yet. Two of the ports are on a daughter board, the > other two are on the main board. The boards are partially hidden by > the monitor chassis, and I've not pulled them out to look yet. There > are some dip switches on the main board though. > > So.. basically, I know that this isn't going to be a great computer > terminal, with it's lack of important command keys, (no ESC either!). > That's too bad, since it's very well built, has a very nice keyboard, > and a very sharp, clear screen. But, I would like to be able to do > something with it, send text to it, use it as a console command > monitor, something. Does anyone have any kind of documentation or > information on this beastie? > > Thanks! > > -Ian > From lynchaj at yahoo.com Tue Jun 17 16:51:38 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 17:51:38 -0400 Subject: Emailing CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board.htm Message-ID: <2A5D64469F2B4C2AAF06BA09719DFB01@andrewdesktop> Emailing: CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board.htm bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jun 17 11:09:33 CDT 2008 * Previous message: Emailing: CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board.htm * Next message: Emailing CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] ________________________________ Allison wrote: > > Have you ever used 8"SSSD to do anything that required space? There > isn't > enough space to run a disassembled version of the BDOS through ASM > unless you have at least two drives and don't mind doing cleanup. > I never could run the CP/M system I was using for more than 30 minutes with out the floppy stepper sticking. That was fun working with it. Still how do you transfer stuff from a floppy ( or file online ) to a CP/M system with no external I/O devices? > Yes you can roll your own data sep it only needs three ttl packages. > With all the other hardware needed for the 765 case you end up with at > least 10 chips > though If you willing to miss a few features it's been done in 7 plus > the FDC > and that doesn't include the bus side of the FDC interface. > That I would like to see. > > Kicad for linux there are other like cadstd for winders. > Of course the last 2901 design I'd done in the early 80s was > with paper and pen! It's doable that way. I still am using paper & pen. Mind you I have to buy JAPANESE pens since the quality of the USA stuff is all cheap Chinese imports. Now that I have a serious cad program - DIPTRACE on order I think I will put the design in hardware. > FYI using 250nS eproms will make it terminally slow unless > you do two things, use a wide microword 64bits or more and > pipeline the address and decode so you can work right to the > eprom Tacc minimum limit. I got that covered if I read the 2901 data sheets correctly. I will be using a 6809 style memory cycle optimized for D-RAM access and clock the 2901 in 4th phase of the memory cycle. This is retro computing project for the feel of the late 1970's not using a 8 bit CPU. I am aming for a 800ns memory cycle and the slow access of micro-code is not a problem. The only thing pipelined is the next memory cycle - Read/Write/Refesh and the default is refresh while doing the the 1st cycle of op-code decoding. The front panel does RUN/STOP, Single Instruction,Address Load, Deposit,Read. -----REPLY----- Hi, I can answer the question on how to get programs and data into and out of the SBC. There are three ways with the basic SBC; 1) XMODEM at the CP/M prompt 2) Intel Hex format transfer at the RAM Monitor prompt and 3) burn your own EPROM with the supplied image or your own custom disk image (utilities are on the website) Here is a little background on the N8VEM SBC design principles The N8VEM SBC is meant to be flexible and low cost. If you start with the PCB only, you can minimize cost by not installing unneeded functions such as; 1) RTC 2) 8255 PPI and parallel port connector 3) ECB Bus transceivers and DIN 41612 connector You can also substitute some parts to reduce cost. Replace the 1Mx8 EPROM with a 128Kx8 27C1001 is a drop in replacement. Scrap and salvaged parts can be used directly or with minor modifications. All the chips are commonly available plain TTL and can be substituted. All of the other components can be substituted if you know what you are doing. Scrap 29C020 Flash ROM chips (PC BIOS) can be reused with a simple shim socket. Most likely 128Kx8 SRAM parts with a shim socket can be used but I haven't tested it yet Installing and running CP/M 2.2 OS is strictly a convenience and an option. Any generic CP/M application should work. The RAM and ROM drives are lightning quick and silent. You'll never see a hung stepper motor with SRAM! The SBC boots into the RAM monitor so you may never need to run CP/M at all if you don't want to. The system I built is rock solid. It runs for hours doing things without a sound or glitch. I used some CMOS components so the SBC runs cool. Power supplies are easy and cheap. Use spare ATX/AT PS or your own with the common Molex drive connector. Of course, all the hardware and software details are fully published and with datasheets for all the components. Except for the EPROM there are no custom or programmed devices at all. All components are bog standard common 74LSxxx TTL and LSI peripherals. It is designed to be built with low cost tools and simple test equipment such as 25W soldering iron and VOM. EPROM programmer, logic probe and/or oscilloscope are useful but optional. You can easily write your own replacement software like a FORTH kernel or custom Z80 boot code if you'd like. The EPROM on the N8VEM site is strictly optional and I actually discourage people from using the pre-programmed part. Write/burn your own and save $$$ on construction. With the low cost PCB available and using standard low cost components anyone can build their own SBC for low cost. You can add the features you like later on and even expand the system via the ECB to be a full blown microcomputer. Once a few of these systems get built "out in the field" I would like to start a challenge to see who can build an SBC for the least cost. Those with a well stocked junk box or access to scrap PC electronics would have an advantage of course. Compared to a design it yourself using wire wrap/prototype boards/breadboards, this SBC PCB will save you time and money on construction. Manufactured PCBs are also more reliable than temporary construction methods in the long term. It will be fun to make, useful, and educational. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From evan at snarc.net Tue Jun 17 17:37:02 2008 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 18:37:02 -0400 Subject: Apple I back up on ebay In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <016701c8d0ca$aaecdc80$f750f945@evan> >>> Hi Evan is there still any doubt in your mind about this seller? Dwight My opinion changed from "poor schlep got taken" to "a-hole trying to take others" ... From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jun 17 17:50:58 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 15:50:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple I back up on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <200806161408453.SM02676@[63.69.23.239]> <4856AEA5.5050203@jetnet.ab.ca> <40E8232C-C19C-4C03-9DE0-019D0B197BE0@neurotica.com> <4856C8FC.1070406@jetnet.ab.ca> <553E7CF1-0459-4818-BF86-E39A67248149@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20080617154924.V90465@shell.lmi.net> The egregious shill comments are gone. The current Q&A no longer pegs the bogosimeter. From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Jun 17 18:06:49 2008 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 19:06:49 -0400 Subject: Apple I back up on ebay References: <200806161408453.SM02676@[63.69.23.239]><4856AEA5.5050203@jetnet.ab.ca><40E8232C-C19C-4C03-9DE0-019D0B197BE0@neurotica.com><4856C8FC.1070406@jetnet.ab.ca><553E7CF1-0459-4818-BF86-E39A67248149@neurotica.com> <20080617154924.V90465@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <003801c8d0ce$d30e28a0$c600a8c0@game> I wonder if the seller might be a list member here and reading your comments? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 6:50 PM Subject: RE: Apple I back up on ebay > The egregious shill comments are gone. The current Q&A no longer pegs the > bogosimeter. From grant at stockly.com Tue Jun 17 18:13:06 2008 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 15:13:06 -0800 Subject: Apple I back up on ebay In-Reply-To: <003801c8d0ce$d30e28a0$c600a8c0@game> References: <200806161408453.SM02676@[63.69.23.239]> <4856AEA5.5050203@jetnet.ab.ca> <40E8232C-C19C-4C03-9DE0-019D0B197BE0@neurotica.com> <4856C8FC.1070406@jetnet.ab.ca> <553E7CF1-0459-4818-BF86-E39A67248149@neurotica.com> <20080617154924.V90465@shell.lmi.net> <003801c8d0ce$d30e28a0$c600a8c0@game> Message-ID: <0K2M0095UR5ST950@msgmmp-1.gci.net> At 03:06 PM 6/17/2008, you wrote: >I wonder if the seller might be a list member here and reading your comments? Can you guys still get to the auction page? All I get is "This listing (220246863432) has been removed or is no longer available. Please make sure you entered the right item number. " From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 17 18:16:47 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 16:16:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Westinghouse W1642 terminal... any info? In-Reply-To: References: <547924.62338.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <51984.64.62.206.10.1213744607.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> > Could this thing be doing a modification of the old teletype codes? > Sone if the really easier machines used modifications on the Baudaut set. Actually as far as I've seen, no Teletype machines actually used Baudot code or variants thereof. They all use variants of Marray code, similar to ITA2. The only substantive similarities between Baudot code and Murray code are that both are five-level codes and both use letters and figures shifts. Tom Jennings has published the results of his thorough research into these early character codes: http://www.wps.com/projects/codes/ From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 17 18:19:21 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 16:19:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Emailing CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board.htm In-Reply-To: <2A5D64469F2B4C2AAF06BA09719DFB01@andrewdesktop> References: <2A5D64469F2B4C2AAF06BA09719DFB01@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <57142.64.62.206.10.1213744761.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Andrew wrote: > Still how do you transfer stuff from a floppy ( or file online ) to a > CP/M system with no external I/O devices? I have yet to see a CP/M system with no external I/O devices. That doesn't sound very useful, so why would one care about transferring stuff to it? Eric From vrs at msn.com Tue Jun 17 18:21:12 2008 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 16:21:12 -0700 Subject: Apple I back up on ebay References: <200806161408453.SM02676@[63.69.23.239]><4856AEA5.5050203@jetnet.ab.ca><40E8232C-C19C-4C03-9DE0-019D0B197BE0@neurotica.com><4856C8FC.1070406@jetnet.ab.ca><553E7CF1-0459-4818-BF86-E39A67248149@neurotica.com><20080617154924.V90465@shell.lmi.net><003801c8d0ce$d30e28a0$c600a8c0@game> <0K2M0095UR5ST950@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Message-ID: > All I get is "This listing (220246863432) has been removed or is no > longer available. Please make sure you entered the right item number. " 220247416953 is the number now. From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Jun 17 18:22:55 2008 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 19:22:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Apple I back up on ebay In-Reply-To: <0K2M0095UR5ST950@msgmmp-1.gci.net> References: <200806161408453.SM02676@[63.69.23.239]> <4856AEA5.5050203@jetnet.ab.ca> <40E8232C-C19C-4C03-9DE0-019D0B197BE0@neurotica.com> <4856C8FC.1070406@jetnet.ab.ca> <553E7CF1-0459-4818-BF86-E39A67248149@neurotica.com> <20080617154924.V90465@shell.lmi.net> <003801c8d0ce$d30e28a0$c600a8c0@game> <0K2M0095UR5ST950@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Jun 2008, Grant Stockly wrote: > Can you guys still get to the auction page? > > All I get is "This listing (220246863432) has been removed or is no longer > available. Please make sure you entered the right item number. " Try this one: 220247416953 Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From tonym at compusource.net Tue Jun 17 19:01:02 2008 From: tonym at compusource.net (tonym) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 00:01:02 GMT Subject: Apple I back up on ebay Message-ID: <200806172001397.SM05688@[63.69.23.239]> I think the "Vintage computer expert" stuff got his last one canned... If you notice, the ORIGINAL $10K listing had *NONE* of our "questions" posted. All of a sudden, in the second listing, there were "experts" popping up all over the place. Me, I'm no Apple 1 expert, by even the FURTHEST stretch of the imagination... Even *MY* untrained-on-Apple-1 eyes could see it was a fake. I'm hoping this dude ends up sharing a cell with a 6'5" 270lb guy named Bubba.... Tony -----Original Message----- From: Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sent 6/17/2008 7:22:55 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Apple I back up on ebay On Tue, 17 Jun 2008, Grant Stockly wrote: Can you guys still get to the auction page? All I get is "This listing (220246863432) has been removed or is no longer available. Please make sure you entered the right item number. " Try this one: 220247416953 Mike Loewenmloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technologyhttp://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From lynchaj at yahoo.com Tue Jun 17 19:38:36 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 20:38:36 -0400 Subject: Emailing CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board.htm Message-ID: Emailing CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board.htm Eric Smith eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 17 18:19:21 CDT 2008 * Previous message: Emailing CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board.htm * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] ________________________________ Andrew wrote: > Still how do you transfer stuff from a floppy ( or file online ) to a > CP/M system with no external I/O devices? I have yet to see a CP/M system with no external I/O devices. That doesn't sound very useful, so why would one care about transferring stuff to it? Eric -----REPLY----- Hi, Who said the N8VEM SBC has no external devices? The SBC has some self contained memory drives but supports external devices over the ECB. The SBC supports a RAM drive (448K B:) and two ROM drives (32K A: and 992K F:) internally. The CBIOS *currently* (read the CBIOS source) supports IDE interface and three hard disk partitions (8M C:, 8M D:, 1M E:) via the Disk IO board. I know the 8M C: drive is fully functional since I have one on my workbench. You can transfer temporary files in and out of the system using the serial line into the RAM drive or burn them into EPROM. The data is available on each device exactly the same except ROM drives are RO and the RAM drive is RW. CP/M CBIOS treats them as block devices and from an operators view they are identical to disk drives. Were there floppy disk with the same DPB as the ROM, the ROM image would also work as a disk image. I do not see why someone who wanted to couldn't write a serial based block device in CP/M and treat the host PC as a block device disk drive. It is of no real interest to me but the modifications to the CBIOS would not be all that hard. You'd also have to write an application on the PC side to handle the serial IO block servicing and with the terminal emulation. It'd be tedious but probably not too difficult. For me XMODEM works just fine to transfer any files to/from the PC as needed. I also do a lot of work off target on the PC and transfer the final binary image to the SBC for testing. The SIMH simulator supports an N8VEM mode I use a lot for development and test (Thanks Howard!) The IDE interface requires the Disk IO board which I have on my bench as a prototype built with prototype cards. The schematics/CBIOS source are available if you'd like to build one too. It also includes a NEC 765 based floppy controller interface. The IDE interface works for sure as I used it for quite a while. The floppy interface is built but never fully tested. My prototype board based system started having problems with reliable grounding when I took a break to work some other projects. The next project is to make an ECB backplane and then a bus debugger from my existing prototypes. After that, recraft the Disk IO board as manufactured PCB. The first thing I did when I restarted the project is begin the conversion of prototype boards to manufactured PCBs. Compared to my original prototype computer, the new manufactured PCB SBC is MUCH more reliable and easier to build. If there are enough units out there to make it worthwhile, I may order several manufactured PCBs for other hobbyists. If not, I will probably just go with another small run of barebone prototype boards for the rest of my boards. I did a run of two SBC prototype PCBs to verify the design before I did this latest run of manufactured PCBs. As for CP/M, you are not REQUIRED to use it. Write your own stuff and burn your own EPROM. However, a plain Z80 SBC is perfectly useful without CP/M. CP/M is just an operating system. CP/M works fine loading and running programs from the RAM/ROM drives however you could just as easily just use the RAM monitor. Better yet, write your own kernel and application. Whatever you like. I split my usage about 50% between the monitor and CP/M. Home brew computers are *not* all nicely finished and debugged so it magically does everything want when you plug it into a wall. That is what makes them a challenging and an enjoyable hobby. People who take it on should expect to get their hands dirty. If you are expecting a pristine flawless commercial product then this project is not for you. Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 17 19:54:54 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 17:54:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Emailing CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board.htm In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51474.64.62.206.10.1213750494.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Andrew wrote: > Still how do you transfer stuff from a floppy ( or file online ) to a > CP/M system with no external I/O devices? I wrote: > I have yet to see a CP/M system with no external I/O devices. That > doesn't sound very useful, so why would one care about transferring > stuff to it? Andrew wrote: > Who said the N8VEM SBC has no external devices? I was replying to your question, quoted above. I never said anything about an N8VEM SBC. Eric From lynchaj at yahoo.com Tue Jun 17 20:14:40 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 21:14:40 -0400 Subject: Emailing CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board.htm Message-ID: <87D16634A7544D20A32D6B444EC12407@andrewdesktop> Emailing CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board.htm Eric Smith eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 17 19:54:54 CDT 2008 * Previous message: Emailing CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board.htm * Messages sorted by: [ date ] [ thread ] [ subject ] [ author ] ________________________________ Andrew wrote: > Still how do you transfer stuff from a floppy ( or file online ) to a > CP/M system with no external I/O devices? I wrote: > I have yet to see a CP/M system with no external I/O devices. That > doesn't sound very useful, so why would one care about transferring > stuff to it? Andrew wrote: > Who said the N8VEM SBC has no external devices? I was replying to your question, quoted above. I never said anything about an N8VEM SBC. Eric -----REPLY----- Eric, Oh, I think I see what happened. The quote you attributed to me is actually from Ben. Everything I said is below the -----REPLY----- I never asked that question and wondered why you asked it. Still, the response is valid. BTW, the N8VEM SBC is the actual name for the home brew Z80 SBC I built. I am offering the PCB to others of similar interests. Probably there has been enough discussion from me on the topic. If anyone is interested please contact me offline or join us on the N8VEM google group: http://groups.google.com/group/n8vem Thanks and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch 73 de N8VEM From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 17 20:33:19 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 18:33:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Emailing CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board.htm In-Reply-To: <87D16634A7544D20A32D6B444EC12407@andrewdesktop> References: <87D16634A7544D20A32D6B444EC12407@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <37950.64.62.206.10.1213752799.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> > Oh, I think I see what happened. The quote you attributed to me is > actually from Ben. Sorry, then. I must have been mistaken about the quoting in the message I replied to. It's a bit confusing when you use different quoting conventions than everyone else. Eric From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jun 17 20:38:36 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 19:38:36 -0600 Subject: Emailing CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board.htm In-Reply-To: <87D16634A7544D20A32D6B444EC12407@andrewdesktop> References: <87D16634A7544D20A32D6B444EC12407@andrewdesktop> Message-ID: <4858671C.1090303@jetnet.ab.ca> Andrew Lynch wrote: > > Eric, > > Oh, I think I see what happened. The quote you attributed to me is actually > from Ben. > > Everything I said is below the -----REPLY----- > > Well here is my real quote "Why does a EPROM burner seems the default device everybody seems to have hiding in thier junk box". I am still looking for one under $1K and not overseas. Ben. PS. I did have a EPROM burner on Z80 S100 mother board but it got tossed years ago do to a flakey power supply and lack of $$$ to upgrade to a real computer. From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 17 20:41:58 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 21:41:58 -0400 Subject: Emailing CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board.htm In-Reply-To: <4858671C.1090303@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <87D16634A7544D20A32D6B444EC12407@andrewdesktop> <4858671C.1090303@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <052CB7CF-2ADC-4616-92C5-BF0185E04281@neurotica.com> On Jun 17, 2008, at 9:38 PM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >> Oh, I think I see what happened. The quote you attributed to me >> is actually >> from Ben. >> >> Everything I said is below the -----REPLY----- >> > Well here is my real quote "Why does a EPROM burner seems the default > device everybody seems to have hiding in thier junk box". > I am still looking for one under $1K and not overseas. Keep combing eBay. I've got just about the best device programmer ever built, and I dropped less than $500 on it. And I believe the former owner is even on this list. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue Jun 17 20:40:36 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 22:40:36 -0300 Subject: Emailing CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board.htm References: <87D16634A7544D20A32D6B444EC12407@andrewdesktop> <4858671C.1090303@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <055801c8d0e4$e1a29a70$0102a8c0@portajara> > Well here is my real quote "Why does a EPROM burner seems the default > device everybody seems to have hiding in thier junk box". Because every hardware hacker should have one (along with an EPROM emulator :D) > I am still looking for one under $1K and not overseas. Beeprog from Elnec. You can't go wrong, and it is CHEAP. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jun 17 20:49:36 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 19:49:36 -0600 Subject: Emailing CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board.htm In-Reply-To: <052CB7CF-2ADC-4616-92C5-BF0185E04281@neurotica.com> References: <87D16634A7544D20A32D6B444EC12407@andrewdesktop> <4858671C.1090303@jetnet.ab.ca> <052CB7CF-2ADC-4616-92C5-BF0185E04281@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <485869B0.6030200@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > > Keep combing eBay. I've got just about the best device programmer > ever built, and I dropped less than $500 on it. And I believe the > former owner is even on this list. ;) > "Ebay is not the answer ... It is the problem" Ben. > -Dave > From lynchaj at yahoo.com Tue Jun 17 20:49:28 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 21:49:28 -0400 Subject: Low Cost EPROM programmer (Ben, this is for you) Message-ID: Ben, if you need a low cost EPROM programmer just go get yourself a junk PC (practically free) and for $20 on Ebay Buy-It-Now (or less if you are patient), get a Willem Programmer. Here is a link: http://search.ebay.com/willem-programmer_W0QQfromZR40QQfsooZ1QQfsopZ34QQsbrs rtZd Decent EPROM programmers are so cheap now as to be hardly an issue. These are super simple to use and practically disposable. They are amazingly durable and useful. They won't work with first generation EPROMs but anything 2716 or later is good. 2816s should be no problem. Good luck with your project. Andrew Lynch From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 17 20:50:11 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 21:50:11 -0400 Subject: Emailing CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board.htm In-Reply-To: <485869B0.6030200@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <87D16634A7544D20A32D6B444EC12407@andrewdesktop> <4858671C.1090303@jetnet.ab.ca> <052CB7CF-2ADC-4616-92C5-BF0185E04281@neurotica.com> <485869B0.6030200@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Jun 17, 2008, at 9:49 PM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >> Keep combing eBay. I've got just about the best device >> programmer ever built, and I dropped less than $500 on it. And I >> believe the former owner is even on this list. ;) >> > "Ebay is not the answer ... It is the problem" Ben. ...which illustrates why I have a device programmer and you don't. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Jun 17 21:03:31 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 21:03:31 -0500 Subject: Apple I back up on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <200806161408453.SM02676@63.69.23.239> <4856AEA5.5050203@jetnet.ab.ca> <40E8232C-C19C-4C03-9DE0-019D0B197BE0@neurotica.com> <4856C8FC.1070406@jetnet.ab.ca> <553E7CF1-0459-4818-BF86-E39A67248149@neurotica.com> <20080617154924.V90465@shell.lmi.net> <003801c8d0ce$d30e28a0$c600a8c0@game> <0K2M0095UR5ST950@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Message-ID: <51ea77730806171903v1cd207b1q3f858269c51e0d26@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 6:22 PM, Mike Loewen wrote: > On Tue, 17 Jun 2008, Grant Stockly wrote: > >> Can you guys still get to the auction page? >> >> All I get is "This listing (220246863432) has been removed or is no longer >> available. Please make sure you entered the right item number. " > > Try this one: 220247416953 Well someone took the bait - sold at the buy-it-now of $2k. Buyer appears to have a thing for Dell PCs and old Sinclairs. From tiggerlasv at aim.com Tue Jun 17 21:06:36 2008 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 22:06:36 -0400 Subject: Apple I back up on ebay Message-ID: <8CA9EFF12B3353D-1604-2D53@webmail-nd04.sysops.aol.com> . . . . and, it has sold, for about $2000 . . . (That was me passing out, from disbelief.) T From tonym at compusource.net Tue Jun 17 21:27:34 2008 From: tonym at compusource.net (tonym) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 02:27:34 GMT Subject: Apple I back up on ebay Message-ID: <200806172227319.SM03544@[63.69.23.239]> But, I wonder if we've seen the last of that clone? Tony -----Original Message----- From: tiggerlasv at aim.com Sent 6/17/2008 10:06:36 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Apple I back up on ebay . . . . and, it has sold, for about $2000 . . . Thud (That was me passing out, from disbelief.) T From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Jun 17 21:31:23 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 22:31:23 -0400 Subject: Apple I back up on ebay In-Reply-To: <200806172227319.SM03544@63.69.23.239> References: <200806172227319.SM03544@63.69.23.239> Message-ID: > But, I wonder if we've seen the last of that clone? I am wondering if we are ever going to see the last of this thread. Get a grip, guys. -- Will From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Jun 17 22:33:15 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 20:33:15 -0700 Subject: Low Cost EPROM programmer (Ben, this is for you) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: At 9:49 PM -0400 6/17/08, Andrew Lynch wrote: >Ben, if you need a low cost EPROM programmer just go get yourself a junk PC >(practically free) and for $20 on Ebay Buy-It-Now (or less if you are >patient), get a Willem Programmer. You should also be able to find a dirt cheap, piece of crap Chinese EPROM eraser that will do the trick off of eBay for about the same price. I picked up both close to a year ago so I could burn some EPROM's for my Commodore 64. Definitely a worthwhile investment for the price, and the best part is they're *SMALL* compared to old commercial models. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From sethm at loomcom.com Tue Jun 17 22:53:45 2008 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 20:53:45 -0700 Subject: Low Cost EPROM programmer (Ben, this is for you) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 8:33 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote: > > You should also be able to find a dirt cheap, piece of crap Chinese EPROM > eraser that will do the trick off of eBay for about the same price. I just bought one of these dirt-cheap, piece of crap Chinese UVPROM erasers on Friday. It should be here tomorrow. I'll let everyone know whether it's capable of erasing anything once I've given it a whirl! (My modern electronics buddies practically did a spit-take when I told them I was still working with UVPROMs! The irony is, I'm only just now getting into this stuff, so 'still working with' isn't quite correct, either. I'm perfectly happy to be stuck in the past!) -Seth From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jun 17 22:58:04 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 21:58:04 -0600 Subject: Low Cost EPROM programmer (Ben, this is for you) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <485887CC.8070100@jetnet.ab.ca> Zane H. Healy wrote: > At 9:49 PM -0400 6/17/08, Andrew Lynch wrote: >> Ben, if you need a low cost EPROM programmer just go get yourself a >> junk PC >> (practically free) and for $20 on Ebay Buy-It-Now (or less if you are >> patient), get a Willem Programmer. > > You should also be able to find a dirt cheap, piece of crap Chinese > EPROM eraser that will do the trick off of eBay for about the same > price. I picked up both close to a year ago so I could burn some > EPROM's for my Commodore 64. Definitely a worthwhile investment for > the price, and the best part is they're *SMALL* compared to old > commercial models. I think I will cross that bridge when I need some EProms burned. That will be some time after my PCB's are made... many many moons from now. Get the schematic done, get the PCB's made, write the microcode & convert Small C software. Still I am off to a good start ... I have a BAG of front panel switches ... The most expensive part. > Zane > PS: For a CP/M system I may save up and get a ALTAIR replica next summer. From delcis at gmail.com Wed Jun 18 00:16:03 2008 From: delcis at gmail.com (Theo Wiegmann) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 00:16:03 -0500 Subject: Power requirements for a CDC 9410 Finch harddrive Message-ID: <48589A13.3000508@gmail.com> Hello CCtalk, I'm hoping someone can help me with the pinout for the power connector of a CDC 9410 Finch 8" 32MB harddrive. It has a power interface that I haven't seen on other 8" drives. If you would like to see pictures: http://www.dusicyon.org/temp/cdc01.jpg http://www.dusicyon.org/temp/cdc02.jpg I appreciate any advice or suggestions you can give. Thank you, Theo Wiegmann From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Jun 17 17:14:16 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 18:14:16 -0400 Subject: CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board Message-ID: <0K2M0089BO4CLA91@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board > From: "Eric Smith" > Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 11:53:23 -0700 (PDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >Allison wrote: >> As long as you can poll within the minimum read/write loop >> time it's fairly easy. If not in the 8080/8085/z80 world you can use >> processor ready line to do a stall-wait on DRQ to keep the loop in >> sync and save some 22 T-states. > >I think you also need some logic to release the ready line if DRQ >doesn't occur but an interrupt does, in order to handle error >cases. With the 765 you can OR the DRQ and the INT lines for that. Likely that works for 179x (and friends)as well. > >> I forget if 6502 has a ready wait line. > >It does, but on the NMOS parts it only can stall read cycles, not >writes. (In the early-to-mid 1970s, ROMs and EPROMs were much slower >than typical SRAMs, so the designers apparently didn't think there >was any need to stall on writes.) I know so well Eproms were slow. > >For the controller I designed, I dealt with that by having a special >address that could be read that only waited for DRQ, at an address >in the page below the FDC's data register. By itself, that wasn't >sufficient to get to 8" MFM on a 1 MHz 6502. However, by taking >advantage of the spurious read that occurs on indexed write >instructions when there is a page crossing, I got the read of the >special polling adress and the write of the data in a single >instruction. That gets it down to 16 cycles, which meets the >nominal rate but isn't actually good enough. By unrolling the >loop, though, it drops to 13 cycles per byte, which meets all >the requirements: Thats pretty crufty. > LDA (DPTR),Y ; get data byte from buffer > STA FDC_SPCL,X ; reads poll location, which stalls, > ; then writes data > INY > >The unrolled loop requires 6 bytes of code per byte transferred, which >is 1536 bytes for a 256-byte sector. Not great, but it did fit in a >2716 EPROM. I used two 2716s, one containing the read loop and one >containing the write loop, both mapped into the same address space >and selected by writing to another port address. The rest of the >FDC driver fit in the remaining space of the two EPROMs. > >I didn't anticipate that they would "fix" the RDY behavior and the >spurious read on the 65C02, so the same code wouldn't work on that. >However, the fix was simply to replace the indexed STA with an >absolute STA. Don't you love it when that happens. In the 8080/8085/z80 world that kind of processor tweek was less common by vendors as absolute compatability with intel (the compatition) was desireable. However having done that far to many times for many different cpus I'll pass on further floppy integration. CF or even IDE gets me to enough space and decent speed with far less pain. Allison >Eric From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Tue Jun 17 02:57:30 2008 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 09:57:30 +0200 Subject: non-CP/M Z80 board In-Reply-To: <200806162204.49847.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200806162101.54836.rtellason@verizon.net> <48571935.6030406@jetnet.ab.ca> <200806162204.49847.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <48576E6A.7070404@iais.fraunhofer.de> Roy J. Tellason schrieb: > I'm not familiar with many 6800 designs, but I was somewhat surprised to see > how limited some parts are, like the 8085 in the "8085 Cookbook" where you > could really get away with very little. OTOH, the c64 doesn't use any > buffering _at all_ and yet the CPU in there seems to have little trouble > driving 3 ROM chips, a set of 8 4164s, plus all the peripherals. I'm > guessing that the Z80 is probably somewhere in between, and that the > datasheet probalby won't give me the whole story anyhow The plain 6800 is not a good example to compare to the 8085; from its generation it rather relates to the 8080 three-chip system. Compare the 8085 to the 6802, and you'll get a minimum 2-chip system 6802-6846 like the 8085-8355 pair. Using EPROMs rather than mask ROMs will expand the chipcount similarly in both ways. The C64 does not use the 1st generation 6502, but rather a modified 8502 CPU with different electrical specifications, so I guess it was explicitly designed to be able to drive its special C64 peripherals. It will, admittedly run into problems though with own extensions, e.g. replacements of the onboard ROMs and additions to the external expansion port. The Z80 has also undergone several modifications throughout its first version, which may or may not resulted in higher fanout. For all of them, one also has to consider that nowadays one won't use the circuitry that was used 20/30 years ago any longer, but use modern chips. This starts with low power HCT TTL, one will avoid DRAMs of that time like a plague now, using monolithic 512KB SRAMs instead, and maybe replace glue logic entirely with LP-CPLDs which can drive much more loads. Regards -- Holger From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Tue Jun 17 17:31:02 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 18:31:02 -0400 Subject: Emailing: CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board.htm Message-ID: <0K2M00IN3P7HUY90@vms042.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Emailing: CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board.htm > From: "bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca" > Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 10:09:33 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Allison wrote: >> >> Have you ever used 8"SSSD to do anything that required space? There >> isn't >> enough space to run a disassembled version of the BDOS through ASM >> unless you have at least two drives and don't mind doing cleanup. >> >I never could run the CP/M system I was using for more than 30 minutes >with out >the floppy stepper sticking. That was fun working with it. BTDT.. :( >Still how do you transfer stuff from a floppy ( or file online ) to a >CP/M system with no external I/O devices? Explain no external IO? A serial line works fine, or a parallel bidirectional port. Since every cp/m system has a console no rule saus it can transfer files on that line either. >> Yes you can roll your own data sep it only needs three ttl packages. >> With all the other hardware needed for the 765 case you end up with at >> least 10 chips >> though If you willing to miss a few features it's been done in 7 plus >> the FDC >> and that doesn't include the bus side of the FDC interface. >> >That I would like to see. Goo look at David Dunfield's CUBIX system. CPU is 6809 but the FDC is 765 with minimal interface parts count. I'd say it was a good example of keep ing the chip count to a minimum. >> >> Kicad for linux there are other like cadstd for winders. >> Of course the last 2901 design I'd done in the early 80s was >> with paper and pen! It's doable that way. >I still am using paper & pen. Mind you I have to buy JAPANESE pens >since the quality of the USA stuff is all cheap Chinese imports. >Now that I have a serious cad program - DIPTRACE on order >I think I will put the design in hardware. I still use paper and pen too. I do everything engineering notebook style. That is black ink, no erasures and numbered pages. >> FYI using 250nS eproms will make it terminally slow unless >> you do two things, use a wide microword 64bits or more and >> pipeline the address and decode so you can work right to the >> eprom Tacc minimum limit. >I got that covered if I read the 2901 data sheets correctly. >I will be using a 6809 style memory cycle optimized for >D-RAM access and clock the 2901 in 4th phase of >the memory cycle. This is retro computing project for the feel >of the late 1970's not using a 8 bit CPU. I am aming for >a 800ns memory cycle and the slow access of micro-code >is not a problem. The only thing pipelined is the next memory >cycle - Read/Write/Refesh and the default is refresh while >doing the the 1st cycle of op-code decoding. The front >panel does RUN/STOP, Single Instruction,Address Load, >Deposit,Read. Using Dram is one way to make life hard. you can use larger static devices and save pain but retain the same cycle style. Last 2901 design was 16bit, horizontal microcode (56bits), one microword to a cycle. I was able to get the pipeline for Eprom address latch to overlap so that the 2732s used would run at 320ns with good timing. The macro cpu executed instructions in that time cycle in a four tick cycle. It was fairly fast for a single address machine. However, I didn't do the microaddress or micro program counter in the 2901 I did that with TTL. No front pannel either the system booted a rom minimal debugger. When I got it working I junked it and started thinking about a 32bit machine. Allison From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Jun 18 01:52:34 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 23:52:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple I back up on ebay In-Reply-To: <8CA9EFF12B3353D-1604-2D53@webmail-nd04.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CA9EFF12B3353D-1604-2D53@webmail-nd04.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 tiggerlasv at aim.com wrote: > . . . . and, it has sold, for about $2000 . . . > > > > (That was me passing out, from disbelief.) So, what's the value of the replica anyhow? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Jun 18 03:49:59 2008 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 10:49:59 +0200 (CEST) Subject: non-CP/M Z80 board In-Reply-To: <48576E6A.7070404@iais.fraunhofer.de> References: <200806162101.54836.rtellason@verizon.net> <48571935.6030406@jetnet.ab.ca> <200806162204.49847.rtellason@verizon.net> <48576E6A.7070404@iais.fraunhofer.de> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Jun 2008, Holger Veit wrote: > The C64 does not use the 1st generation 6502, but rather a modified 8502 CPU > with different electrical specifications, so I guess it was explicitly > designed to be able to drive its special C64 peripherals. It will, admittedly > run into problems though with own extensions, e.g. replacements of the > onboard ROMs and additions to the external expansion port. All so-called "Brotkasten" C64 (i.e. C64 model I) contain a 6510 CPU, which is a 6502 with some additional on-chip I/O. Later models contain a 8500 CPU, the 8502 (the 2MHz version) can be found in the C128. Christian From mike at brickfieldspark.org Wed Jun 18 03:55:47 2008 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 09:55:47 +0100 Subject: [personal] Re: UK PDP 11/10 - 11/40 NGTE Installations References: Message-ID: <002001c8d121$1a7e4d30$961ca8c0@mss.local> Adrian, Hi. >I guess it's all a Tesco warehouse now. Far from it, Tesco's have pulled out after a spirited campaign by a local group,over 12,000 signatures against. Tesco's had also at the same time put in for the same size development as Pyestock (1.3M Sq ft) at Andover Airfield and they went for that one after the campaign success. At the moment the Pyestock developers now only have a speculative application with no takers, but they are still pressing ahead. Recent photos on the exploration forums show that demolition machines have moved onto the Pyestock site, so it seem some parts of it are coming down. Also security on site has apparently got a whole lot tighter (dogs). > I'd forgotten I was supposed to try and get round Pyestock with the > creator > of that site but Life Events got in the way and I even see he hasn't > updated > it since shortly after said Events. He is still doing some updates I gather, the most recent prompted my post about the Pyestock PDP's. Should a trip be planned let me know, interested in going, I worked there for almost 10 years in the computing department. Best regards, Mike Hatch Web - www.soemtron.org Email - mike at soemtron.org Looking for a PDP-7 (some hope!) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Adrian Graham" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 10:43 PM Subject: [personal] Re: UK PDP 11/10 - 11/40 NGTE Installations > On 4/6/08 17:28, "Mike Hatch" wrote: > >> For those intersted in DEC equipment and one aspect of their their usage >> (UK >> I'm afraid) >> Details of a now defunct Military installation that used various DEC >> computers has recently gone online. >> These documents from about 1980 show PDP 11/10's and 11/40's used for jet >> engine research and how they were utilised. >> I was the tech involved in the installation of the 11/40 in the mid >> 1970's, >> and maintenance at that time of the PDP7, SDS9300 and Elliot 803B >> systems. I >> also lists an ICL1904s running George Mk 8.64. >> >> It was all decomissioned in 2002, who knows where all the kit went but >> the >> urban explorer forums say it has all gone. Typical UK government, we dont >> want it so nobody can have it. > > Thanks Mike, > > I'd forgotten I was supposed to try and get round Pyestock with the > creator > of that site but Life Events got in the way and I even see he hasn't > updated > it since shortly after said Events. I guess it's all a Tesco warehouse > now. > > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? > > > > From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Jun 18 05:40:09 2008 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 06:40:09 -0400 Subject: CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board In-Reply-To: <4857A030.15430.AB0CF2F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200806171614.m5HGEF7t020475@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4857A030.15430.AB0CF2F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <18531.1213785609@mini> "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > >Me, I miss the big iron. But even if I owned a full 7090 >installation or STAR-100 "supercomputer" and could afford the utility >bills to run them, there would always be the itch in the back of my >skull that a personal computer could run rings around the behemoths-- >and be one heckuva a lot quieter and more reliable. Everything you said makes sense. But for some reason it doesn't capture it for me. A modern car is much faster, more efficient and more reliable, but an old 911 is more beautiful, more fun to drive and better built. For me booting RSTS on a 11/34 is like taking an old car out the garage for a spin. It's just plain fun to tinker with. -brad From tiggerlasv at aim.com Wed Jun 18 05:44:04 2008 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 06:44:04 -0400 Subject: Apple I back up on ebay Message-ID: <8CA9F475C4224C8-A38-DF@webmail-nc01.sysops.aol.com> On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 David Griffith wrote: > So, what's the value of the replica anyhow? Hehe. I guess it's worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it. I just found it surprising that someone still bid, after all the various revisions to the auction. Heck, even the 2nd auction was edited once or twice after it was posted. It was most unusual. I'm still puzzled as to why he indicated that it came from a collector, and that there was a display case. . . but then went on to say that it was covered in a layer of dust. Normally, you put items in display cases to AVOID human hands, dust, and dirt. But, I digress. It's over with. We should move on to more important things. . . . . . like the 11/73 system that I just listed on e-bay. It's alot less expensive, and one can be reasonably sure that the processor isn't a knock-off. ;-) T From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 18 08:01:27 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 09:01:27 -0400 Subject: Emailing CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board.htm In-Reply-To: <055801c8d0e4$e1a29a70$0102a8c0@portajara> References: <87D16634A7544D20A32D6B444EC12407@andrewdesktop> <4858671C.1090303@jetnet.ab.ca> <055801c8d0e4$e1a29a70$0102a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <198883B8-3243-49DE-A78E-2A13CA2763A3@neurotica.com> On Jun 17, 2008, at 9:40 PM, Alexandre Souza wrote: >> Well here is my real quote "Why does a EPROM burner seems the default >> device everybody seems to have hiding in thier junk box". > > Because every hardware hacker should have one (along with an > EPROM emulator :D) I've got a PROMICE by Grammar Engine, Inc., but I've not yet managed to put together a box-to-target cable. I should do that soon. -Dave > -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 18 08:19:48 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 09:19:48 -0400 Subject: Low Cost EPROM programmer (Ben, this is for you) In-Reply-To: <1213786943.2147.10.camel@bart> References: <1213786943.2147.10.camel@bart> Message-ID: <8B63FC2C-3129-4E5B-AFD6-AFABD2657051@neurotica.com> On Jun 18, 2008, at 7:02 AM, Steve Robertson wrote: >> Ben, if you need a low cost EPROM programmer just go get yourself >> a junk PC >> (practically free) and for $20 on Ebay Buy-It-Now (or less if you are >> patient), get a Willem Programmer. >> > > I bought a Willem Programmer a couple of years ago off Ebay and paid > around $40 for it. I use it for 27Cxxx's but it will also do 24Cxx, > 25Cxx, 93Cxx, and PICs. > > I love it! > > There seems to be a LOT of variants out there so, make sure the one > you > get will work with your specific chips. > > I wish there was a good LINUX based IDE for it. You mean programmer control software? Is programming information available for it? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Wed Jun 18 08:20:16 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 13:20:16 +0000 Subject: Emailing CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board.htm In-Reply-To: <198883B8-3243-49DE-A78E-2A13CA2763A3@neurotica.com> References: <87D16634A7544D20A32D6B444EC12407@andrewdesktop> <4858671C.1090303@jetnet.ab.ca> <055801c8d0e4$e1a29a70$0102a8c0@portajara> <198883B8-3243-49DE-A78E-2A13CA2763A3@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20080618132016.GA14259@usap.gov> On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 09:01:27AM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jun 17, 2008, at 9:40 PM, Alexandre Souza wrote: > > Because every hardware hacker should have one (along with an > >EPROM emulator :D) > > I've got a PROMICE by Grammar Engine, Inc., but I've not yet > managed to put together a box-to-target cable. I should do that soon. Dave, If you need any help with your PromICE, let me know. I worked with the founder of Grammar Engine years ago, and I have used their ROMulator and PromICEs extensively (we used to help them out back when VMS support was relevant - they would bring their download code over, and we'd compile it for them). Theirs was the first EPROM emulator I worked with, and I have to say the experience was fanstastic. Our first target was a VAXBI COMBOARD - with EPROMs, we'd have to shut down the VAX and remove the board *plus* all the usual edit-compile-burn time, then put it all back and restart the VAX - about an hour cycle time to fix a bug. With the PromICE, since we booted our target board anyway as part of the normal use cycle (not common in embedded boards, but ours used host-bus-downloaded application code, so we soft-booted our boards *lots*), the makefile handled the compile-download-boot phase by itself, and our turnaround time was more like 5 minutes. It made debugging go really, really smoothly, especially when we were having problems with one particular sort of VAXBI cycle. Cheers, -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 18-Jun-2008 at 13:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -62.5 F (-52.5 C) Windchill -91.5 F (-68.6 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 7.6 kts Grid 1 Barometer 674.6 mb (10833 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 18 08:21:24 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 09:21:24 -0400 Subject: Low Cost EPROM programmer (Ben, this is for you) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jun 17, 2008, at 11:53 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: >> You should also be able to find a dirt cheap, piece of crap >> Chinese EPROM >> eraser that will do the trick off of eBay for about the same price. > > I just bought one of these dirt-cheap, piece of crap Chinese UVPROM > erasers on Friday. It should be here tomorrow. I'll let everyone > know whether it's capable of erasing anything once I've given it a > whirl! > > (My modern electronics buddies practically did a spit-take when I told > them I was still working with UVPROMs! The irony is, I'm only just > now getting into this stuff, so 'still working with' isn't quite > correct, either. I'm perfectly happy to be stuck in the past!) Eh, bunk. There's nothing at all wrong with EPROMs. Flash is *sometimes* more convenient, but not always. That said, though, all of my commercial design work lately has been with microcontrollers that have on-chip flash, and often no off-chip memory at all, EPROM or otherwise. I have a friend who repairs medical equipment, and sometimes he drops by with something he needs help with, usually a component-level repair. In that world, recently I've seen at least three or four boards made in the past couple of years (2006 copyright dates) with UV-erasable EPROMs on them. The machine I've been working with a lot lately (a wire-wrapped Z80 SBC with Forth and a bunch of peripherals) was originally designed for use with a 27C256, but I came across a tube of Hitachi 58C256 chips. My programmer (Data I/O Unisite) supports them, and it only took a minor wiring change (Vpp vs. A14) for it to work in my board. It saves the erasure step, but not really any time, because when doing heavy development I rotate through two or three EPROMs so there are always erased ones waiting for me. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 18 08:24:05 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 09:24:05 -0400 Subject: non-CP/M Z80 board In-Reply-To: <200806171349.59267.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200806171614.m5HGEF7t020475@dewey.classiccmp.org> <48579492.7386.A836BA0@cclist.sydex.com> <200806171349.59267.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <3C0B9040-F220-478C-A0B3-7E1CE4EAA760@neurotica.com> On Jun 17, 2008, at 1:49 PM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> IIRC, when there was only the NMOS Z80/Z80A parts, this was one of >> the reasons for the popularity of the Intel 8085. You could put >> together a functional system for a dedicated application with some of >> the made-for-8085 peripherals (e.g. 8155, 8355, 8755), with a very >> low chip count compared to what's needed for an equivalent Z80 >> implementation. > > Are those parts even around any more though? Easy enough to find? > I haven't > looked in a while... They're all over the place. I have at least one tube of *brand new* NMOS Z80 (not-A) chips here...cost me all of three bucks on eBay in '06 or so. Need any? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ian_primus at yahoo.com Wed Jun 18 08:52:27 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 06:52:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IDT tape drive information In-Reply-To: <4858241A.80809@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <214445.87299.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 6/17/08, Al Kossow wrote: > Documentation for the transport and formatter are up now > under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/innovativeDataTechnology Thanks Al! That's a big help. -Ian From ian_primus at yahoo.com Wed Jun 18 08:54:28 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 06:54:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IDT tape drive information In-Reply-To: <4858241A.80809@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <232224.96900.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- On Tue, 6/17/08, Al Kossow wrote: > Documentation for the transport and formatter are up now > under http://bitsavers.org/pdf/innovativeDataTechnology Thanks Al! That's a big help. -Ian From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 18 09:04:01 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 10:04:01 -0400 Subject: non-CP/M Z80 board In-Reply-To: References: <200806162101.54836.rtellason@verizon.net> <48571935.6030406@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <6205B66B-DBFC-4EE1-9A65-FD93C29742BC@neurotica.com> On Jun 16, 2008, at 10:07 PM, David Kane wrote: >> Read the $%#! manual to put it bluntly. A simple guess is once your >> design is larger than a small card, you need I/O buffering. I think >> a 6800 cpu can drive about 150 pf and a typical load is 10 pf at >> rated speeds. >> > Should that be mA for load? I am pretty much a noob at EE and > design, but I > did manage to get my head around fanout and loading calculations. > They feel > funny at first when self teaching yourself and then all of a sudden > make > sense. Here, what the 6800 can drive in terms of capacitance is another way of stating its output drive current capability. I'll expound for the benefit of those who haven't gotten their head around it yet. I thank our very own Tony Duell for helping *me* get my head around this many years ago, when my nice clean square waves were turning into deformed triangles as I tried to drive a big FET for an IR transmitter in a commercial product. This is a simplification, but it gets the point across. Think of it in terms of a signal changing state from 0 to 1. CMOS chips are FET-based, and the input of a CMOS logic gate typically goes to the gate ("gate" in FET terms, not logic terms) of a FET. The FET's gate is essentially a tiny capacitor. To turn the FET on, one must charge that capacitor. So, you need to raise the voltage on the FET's gate from ~0V to ~2V (the 74HCT 0-1 threshold according to Fairchild's AN-368 app note). The higher the capacitance of that logic gate's input (which is the gate capacitance of the input FET, typically Ciss on transistor datasheets) the more current it'll take to charge it to a the 0-1 threshold voltage in a given amount of time. If the capacitance is lower, it'll take less current. Now, recall that capacitances in parallel add up...so if the input capacitance of (say) a 74HCT245 is 3.5pF (from the datasheet), if you put five 74HCT245 inputs on a bus line, the total capacitance (excluding PCB traces, etc) is 5*3.5 = 17.5pF...requiring more drive capability from whatever is driving that bus line. So if the drive capability is insufficient, the rise time of the pulse will lengthen, and turn that nice sharp rising edge into a long sweeping transition, screwing up the timing and confusing lots of things. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Jun 18 10:24:55 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 11:24:55 -0400 Subject: non-CP/M Z80 board In-Reply-To: <48576E6A.7070404@iais.fraunhofer.de> References: <200806162101.54836.rtellason@verizon.net> <200806162204.49847.rtellason@verizon.net> <48576E6A.7070404@iais.fraunhofer.de> Message-ID: <200806181124.57088.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 17 June 2008 03:57, Holger Veit wrote: > Roy J. Tellason schrieb: > > I'm not familiar with many 6800 designs, but I was somewhat surprised to > > see how limited some parts are, like the 8085 in the "8085 Cookbook" > > where you could really get away with very little. OTOH, the c64 doesn't > > use any buffering _at all_ and yet the CPU in there seems to have little > > trouble driving 3 ROM chips, a set of 8 4164s, plus all the > > peripherals. I'm guessing that the Z80 is probably somewhere in between, > > and that the datasheet probalby won't give me the whole story anyhow > > The plain 6800 is not a good example to compare to the 8085; from its > generation it rather relates to the 8080 three-chip system. Compare the > 8085 to the 6802, and you'll get a minimum 2-chip system 6802-6846 like > the 8085-8355 pair. Using EPROMs rather than mask ROMs will expand the > chipcount similarly in both ways. Yeah, I'm not familiiar enough with the members of the 68xx family to know what the 6802 is all about without looking it up. But neither of these parts is what I'm into here anyway. I have some familiarity with the 8080, 8085, and z80. The 8080 with its requirement for support chips and multiple power supplies I'd rather avoid, the 8085 is okay but limited, and I have more z80 parts than anything else, so... > The C64 does not use the 1st generation 6502, but rather a modified 8502 > CPU with different electrical specifications, so I guess it was > explicitly designed to be able to drive its special C64 peripherals. I don't recall ever seein "8502" anywhere, the actual number in there being 6510, which has the onboard I/O port as being the major part of the differences as far as I'm aware. I don't know about differences in drive specifications and such. Nor do I have a clue as to where those 85xx numbers came from, only that I ran into some of them in the later c64s being used for CPU, SID, and VIC chips. Mostly though I have a lot of 6502s and 6522s from 1541s, 6526s, and some small number of other parts. I'm not that familiar with those parts from the programming side of things though. Nor do I have any plans to support onboard video like the 64 did. > It will, admittedly run into problems though with own extensions, e.g. > replacements of the onboard ROMs and additions to the external expansion > port. Interesting to know. One thing I've always been curious about is when you look at the 64 schematics some of them shows lines on some of the connectors labeled "Z80" and "DMA" and I've never seen anything that actually used either of these. > The Z80 has also undergone several modifications throughout its first > version, which may or may not resulted in higher fanout. Hm. Perhaps I'll need to dig out what actual parts I have on hand and see who made them and which versions they are, then. > For all of them, one also has to consider that nowadays one won't use > the circuitry that was used 20/30 years ago any longer, but use modern > chips. This starts with low power HCT TTL, one will avoid DRAMs of that > time like a plague now, using monolithic 512KB SRAMs instead, and maybe > replace glue logic entirely with LP-CPLDs which can drive much more loads. Well, my inclination is to use what I have on hand, rather than buying stuff, if at all possible. What I have includes 2K and 8K static RAM (I wouldn't mind having some bigger parts :-), and an assortment of EPROMs of various sizes from 2716 on up, plus an assortment of Z80-family peripheral chips, and a lot of LSTTL. Maybe *some* 74HCT parts as well. I figure a CPU, one or two RAM chips (or more?), an EPROM, at least one serial chips, at least one parallel chip, perhaps a CTC and DMA, and we'll see where it goes from there. Just something to fool around with, mostly. The EPROM will get some kind of homebrew monitor and some code in there to load stuff by way of one or another port, I have no plans to tie a disk drive of any sort into this either. I'm particularly *not* inclined to try and go the route that I've seen a number of people go, where they want floppy drives, video, etc. essentially clonining what was out there to a large extent in the pre-PC days. I have plenty of PC hardware around if I want that sort of thing, and could even fire up my old Executive if I needed to get some of that feeling back again, but that's not where I'm inclined to go with this. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Jun 18 10:33:50 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 11:33:50 -0400 Subject: non-CP/M Z80 board In-Reply-To: <3C0B9040-F220-478C-A0B3-7E1CE4EAA760@neurotica.com> References: <200806171614.m5HGEF7t020475@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200806171349.59267.rtellason@verizon.net> <3C0B9040-F220-478C-A0B3-7E1CE4EAA760@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200806181133.51175.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 18 June 2008 09:24, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jun 17, 2008, at 1:49 PM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >> IIRC, when there was only the NMOS Z80/Z80A parts, this was one of > >> the reasons for the popularity of the Intel 8085. You could put > >> together a functional system for a dedicated application with some of > >> the made-for-8085 peripherals (e.g. 8155, 8355, 8755), with a very > >> low chip count compared to what's needed for an equivalent Z80 > >> implementation. > > > > Are those parts even around any more though? Easy enough to find? > > I haven't looked in a while... > > They're all over the place. I have at least one tube of *brand > new* NMOS Z80 (not-A) chips here...cost me all of three bucks on eBay > in '06 or so. Need any? Those I probably have some of, though I'll have to do some digging to be sure. The non-A version only ran at what, 2.5 MHz? I was actually referring to those 8085-family parts up there, but I don't have a whole lot of enthusiasm for that part these days, unless I want to go for low chip count for some specific application. I'm not remembering where the heck I got it, but somewhere I had a brown paper bag (!) with a couple or three slabs of black foam in it that were loaded on both sides with CPU and other Z80-family parts. One of these days I need to find that and see exactly what I've got. I suspect that where I'm probably going to come up short is in finding a sufficient quantity of 40-pin wire-wrap sockets to build this with. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jun 18 10:36:17 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 08:36:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: non-CP/M Z80 board In-Reply-To: <200806181124.57088.rtellason@verizon.net> from "Roy J. Tellason" at "Jun 18, 8 11:24:55 am" Message-ID: <200806181536.m5IFaHOa011688@floodgap.com> > > The C64 does not use the 1st generation 6502, but rather a modified 8502 > > CPU with different electrical specifications, so I guess it was > > explicitly designed to be able to drive its special C64 peripherals. > > I don't recall ever seein "8502" anywhere, the actual number in there being > 6510, which has the onboard I/O port as being the major part of the > differences as far as I'm aware. I don't know about differences in drive > specifications and such. Nor do I have a clue as to where those 85xx numbers > came from, only that I ran into some of them in the later c64s being used > for CPU, SID, and VIC chips. Mostly though I have a lot of 6502s and 6522s > from 1541s, 6526s, and some small number of other parts. I'm not that > familiar with those parts from the programming side of things though. Nor do > I have any plans to support onboard video like the 64 did. The 8502 was probably a typo I bet :) though the 128 does use the 8502. 7xxx and 8xxx Commodore chips are HMOS (7xxx=HMOS-1, 8xxx=HMOS-2). They are functionally equivalent to each other, but not electrically compatible with the 6xxx NMOS parts. Later 64Cs used the 8500, which was an HMOS-2 version of the 6510. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- And now for something completely different. -- Monty Python ---------------- From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 18 10:48:24 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 08:48:24 -0700 Subject: non-CP/M Z80 board In-Reply-To: <200806181358.m5IDw08Y037198@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200806181358.m5IDw08Y037198@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <4858CBD8.3424.C15E6@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 09:24:05 -0400 > From: Dave McGuire > > Are those parts even around any more though? Easy enough to find? > > I haven't > > looked in a while... > They're all over the place. I have at least one tube of *brand > new* NMOS Z80 (not-A) chips here...cost me all of three bucks on eBay > in '06 or so. Need any? I think the chips under discussion were the 8085 specialty chips, 8155, 8355, 8755, etc. Got tubes of those? Cheers, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 18 10:57:17 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 11:57:17 -0400 Subject: non-CP/M Z80 board In-Reply-To: <200806181133.51175.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200806171614.m5HGEF7t020475@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200806171349.59267.rtellason@verizon.net> <3C0B9040-F220-478C-A0B3-7E1CE4EAA760@neurotica.com> <200806181133.51175.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1548AAF2-AEC5-44E7-83E8-852726C0AE39@neurotica.com> On Jun 18, 2008, at 11:33 AM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: >>>> IIRC, when there was only the NMOS Z80/Z80A parts, this was one of >>>> the reasons for the popularity of the Intel 8085. You could put >>>> together a functional system for a dedicated application with >>>> some of >>>> the made-for-8085 peripherals (e.g. 8155, 8355, 8755), with a very >>>> low chip count compared to what's needed for an equivalent Z80 >>>> implementation. >>> >>> Are those parts even around any more though? Easy enough to find? >>> I haven't looked in a while... >> >> They're all over the place. I have at least one tube of *brand >> new* NMOS Z80 (not-A) chips here...cost me all of three bucks on eBay >> in '06 or so. Need any? > > Those I probably have some of, though I'll have to do some digging > to be > sure. The non-A version only ran at what, 2.5 MHz? Yes, 2.5MHz. > I was actually referring to those 8085-family parts up there, but > I don't > have a whole lot of enthusiasm for that part these days, unless I > want to go > for low chip count for some specific application. Ahh ok, sorry for my mistake...I thought you were referring to the Z80 parts. > I suspect that where I'm probably going to come up short is in > finding a > sufficient quantity of 40-pin wire-wrap sockets to build this > with. :-) Are you dead-set against just buying them? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 18 11:06:00 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 09:06:00 -0700 Subject: Pre-computer Internet Message-ID: <4858CFF8.20614.1C3317@cclist.sydex.com> Here's a great little piece from the New York Times about a Belgian who envisioned a sort of Internet in 1934: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/17/science/17mund.html?_r=1&oref=slogin Check out the short video at the end. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Jun 18 11:14:05 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 12:14:05 -0400 Subject: non-CP/M Z80 board In-Reply-To: <1548AAF2-AEC5-44E7-83E8-852726C0AE39@neurotica.com> References: <200806171614.m5HGEF7t020475@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200806181133.51175.rtellason@verizon.net> <1548AAF2-AEC5-44E7-83E8-852726C0AE39@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200806181214.05430.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 18 June 2008 11:57, Dave McGuire wrote: > > I was actually referring to those 8085-family parts up there, but > > I don't have a whole lot of enthusiasm for that part these days, unless I > > want to go for low chip count for some specific application. > > Ahh ok, sorry for my mistake...I thought you were referring to the > Z80 parts. > > > I suspect that where I'm probably going to come up short is in > > finding a sufficient quantity of 40-pin wire-wrap sockets to build this > > with. :-) > > Are you dead-set against just buying them? Money is tight, unless things change rather drastically in the near future, and there are a lot of demands on available funds that tend to exclude "hobby" stuff like this, unfortunately. I might be able to manage some small quantity of 'em, if it comes to that. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From mike at brickfieldspark.org Wed Jun 18 11:31:14 2008 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 17:31:14 +0100 Subject: [personal] RE: Apple I back up on ebay References: <48568A2A.2070508@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <002101c8d160$bb84fe60$961ca8c0@mss.local> That lising appears to have been removed. Mike. ----- Original Message ----- From: "dwight elvey" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2008 5:50 AM Subject: [personal] RE: Apple I back up on ebay > >> From: aek at bitsavers.org >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220246863432 >> >> only change from the original listing (along with dropping the price). >> >> "Up for bids is an Apple I Computer, many experts believe to be infact a >> good >> reproduction (of witch about 150 where made - my knowledge of more info >> is >> limited) in good shape. One of the genuine ones recently reported selling >> for in excess of $50,000, and with good reason, experts believe there is >> only >> 20-30 in existence of the original 200 handmade by Steve Jobs and Steve >> Wozniak in early 1976." >> > > Hi > He just lost my vote. He knows quite well that it is the exact same > board that was a copy. He's making it sound like there is some doubt. > What a sleeze! > Dwight > > _________________________________________________________________ > It?s easy to add contacts from Facebook and other social sites through > Windows Live? Messenger. Learn how. > https://www.invite2messenger.net/im/?source=TXT_EML_WLH_LearnHow > > From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Wed Jun 18 12:14:35 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 14:14:35 -0300 Subject: non-CP/M Z80 board References: <200806181536.m5IFaHOa011688@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <0a4f01c8d167$6e873310$0102a8c0@portajara> > Later 64Cs used the 8500, which was an HMOS-2 version of the 6510. BTW, anyone have a spare 6502C used in the Atari 5200 and Atari 400/800? My 5200 is broken :( I can't find a suitable spare :( From tsw-cc at johana.com Wed Jun 18 12:24:32 2008 From: tsw-cc at johana.com (Tom Watson) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 10:24:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: any building 6800 sbc's out there? Message-ID: <853060.644.qm@web90402.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: "Chris M" Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2008 8:26 PM To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: any building 6800 sbc's out there? > just curious. When I started piddling around with this > stuff in the late 80's I guess, that was one of the > chips I intended to use as the basis for probably a > small breadboarded computer. Never got around to it. > But I did *swipe* a coco off of a friend and played > with that for a spell (6809 based). Close enough! :) Oh, 6800 stuff. Brings back many old memories. When the 6800 was released back in 1975 (+- 1 year) I had the great idea to build a ham radio repeater controller. In the process I ended up doing a bunch more. Eventually we had a bunch of "cards" that used 44 pin edge connectors (look, it is what I had at work) and it worked out quite well. After the repeater project, I did some work in testing Qume printers (you remember the Daisy Wheel things) and ended up writing a small operating system using single density minifloppies and a WD1771 controller chip (much better than discrete hardware!!). The data rate was slow enough (64 us/byte) that I could get away with having the data use the non-maskable interrupt to transfer data. Somewhere I've got some of the hardware from that era. The boxes could be maxed out at over 60k bytes. One of the 'projects' I ended up doing was the basis of a company I worked at from '78 thru '83. One interesting thing was that GM had a special chip made that plugged into a 6800 socket, and ran 6801 code at 6801 cycle times (about 20% faster!). We got a couple and the system I've got in the garage still has it working. Never did get into S100/CP-M stuff. Oh, well. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 18 12:27:58 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 10:27:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple I back up on ebay In-Reply-To: <8CA9F475C4224C8-A38-DF@webmail-nc01.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CA9F475C4224C8-A38-DF@webmail-nc01.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <20080618102730.O39078@shell.lmi.net> > So, what's the value of the replica anyhow? $1999. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 18 13:41:42 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 11:41:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Pre-computer Internet In-Reply-To: <4858CFF8.20614.1C3317@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4858CFF8.20614.1C3317@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20080618113355.L40748@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 18 Jun 2008, Chuck Guzis wrote: > http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/17/science/17mund.html?_r=1&oref=slogin If you like Otlet, . . . http://people.ischool.berkeley.edu/~buckland/otlet.html and check out Emmanuel Goldberg (a lot of Vannevar Bush's "memex" stuff was lifted from Goldberg's) http://people.ischool.berkeley.edu/~buckland/goldberg.html and, of course, if you hadn't already heard, "Hyperland" is now available on WWW! Hyperland was a "fantasy documentary" made in the late '80s and broadcast on BBC in 1990. It was written by Douglas Adams, starring Tom Baker, based on Ted Nelson's fantasies about internet, well before Cern built the early WWW. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperland http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7190175107515525470 http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=hyperland&search=Search Downloadable here: http://epeus.blogspot.com/2006/09/douglas-adams-hyperland.html http://media.ito.com/kevinmarks/hyperland.mp4 -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com (Michael Buckland was my PhD advisor) From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Jun 18 13:44:22 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 11:44:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board In-Reply-To: <0K2M0089BO4CLA91@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0K2M0089BO4CLA91@vms173005.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <36830.64.62.206.10.1213814662.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Allison wrote: > Thats pretty crufty. I suppose. I thought it was a clever way to keep the cost and size of the controller to a minimum, as opposed to implementing DMA. Other than the Motorola MC6844, which was expensive and not readily available, there weren't any DMA controllers that were easy to interface to the synchronous bus of a 6502. I could have built a DMA controller out of TTL, but it would have been quite a few chips, and might not have fit on the PCB without going to four layers. I could have added a local processor running at a higher clock. Any of those approaches would have been a lot more expensive. Eric From sellam at vintagetech.com Wed Jun 18 13:56:59 2008 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 11:56:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need Mac OS 6.0.4 Message-ID: I need Mac OS 6.0.4 in a format that can be downloaded with a PC (under WinXP), then moved to a disk that will boot on a Mac (IIci). Can someone help? If so, please contact me directly. Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Jun 18 14:16:25 2008 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 20:16:25 +0100 Subject: [personal] Re: UK PDP 11/10 - 11/40 NGTE Installations In-Reply-To: <002001c8d121$1a7e4d30$961ca8c0@mss.local> Message-ID: On 18/6/08 09:55, "Mike Hatch" wrote: > Adrian, Hi. > >> I guess it's all a Tesco warehouse now. > > Far from it, Tesco's have pulled out after a spirited campaign by a local > group,over 12,000 signatures against. Tesco's had also at the same time put > in for the same size development as Pyestock (1.3M Sq ft) at Andover Impressive, nice to see that the locals seem to care about the history of the place! > Recent photos on the exploration forums show that demolition machines have > moved onto the Pyestock site, so it seem some parts of it are coming down. > Also security on site has apparently got a whole lot tighter (dogs). I'm surprised they're not letting select groups in to explore the place actually, I must check the urbanex stuff tonight, it's a long time since I did. Pity the DEC stuff is long gone (he says keeping things on topic :)) > He is still doing some updates I gather, the most recent prompted my post > about the Pyestock PDP's. Nice to see a MINC in use too, now that it's warm I should try and get mine running though I gather the PSU on a MINC is a complex beast. > Should a trip be planned let me know, interested in going, I worked there > for almost 10 years in the computing department. I will, but I think Simon doesn't like strangers with him. Don't blame him really. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Jun 18 15:45:10 2008 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 22:45:10 +0200 Subject: Corestore - the Big Move In-Reply-To: <200806072247.m57MlXnx006010@floodgap.com> References: <200806072247.m57MlXnx006010@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20080618224510.1727ebd5.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 15:47:33 -0700 (PDT) Cameron Kaiser wrote: > Being unmarried means I get to put my server rack in the dining room. > That's better than sex. This is real geek porn: ftp://ftp.franken.de/pub/people/m/pix/comp/ -- tsch__, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From sethm at loomcom.com Wed Jun 18 16:21:55 2008 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 14:21:55 -0700 Subject: Corestore - the Big Move In-Reply-To: <20080618224510.1727ebd5.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> References: <200806072247.m57MlXnx006010@floodgap.com> <20080618224510.1727ebd5.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 1:45 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 15:47:33 -0700 (PDT) > Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >> Being unmarried means I get to put my server rack in the dining room. >> That's better than sex. > This is real geek porn: > ftp://ftp.franken.de/pub/people/m/pix/comp/ Mein Gott in Himmel! Warn people next time: NSFW :) -Seth From vrs at msn.com Wed Jun 18 16:34:40 2008 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 14:34:40 -0700 Subject: Corestore - the Big Move References: <200806072247.m57MlXnx006010@floodgap.com> <20080618224510.1727ebd5.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> Message-ID: > This is real geek porn: "My eyes! The goggles do nothing !" From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 17 22:05:11 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 04:05:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: Westinghouse W1642 terminal... any info? In-Reply-To: <51984.64.62.206.10.1213744607.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> from "Eric Smith" at Jun 17, 8 04:16:47 pm Message-ID: > > > Could this thing be doing a modification of the old teletype codes? > > Sone if the really easier machines used modifications on the Baudaut set. > > Actually as far as I've seen, no Teletype machines actually used Baudot > code or variants thereof. They all use variants of Marray code, similar > to ITA2. I believe that is correct. > > The only substantive similarities between Baudot code and Murray code I have an old set of books that describe the 'Baudot Quadruplex' (time division multiplexed, done by mechanically rotated seelctors) in great detail, and whihc give the character codes (in this machine, you used a 5-key 'chording' keybboard, not a normal alphanumeric one, so you had to know the bit patterns). Of course I also haev a Murray/ITA2 table. And there are, as far as I can see, no characters that are the same. Even the letter/figures shift equivanlence is totally different (in the Murray code, the digits are assigned to the figures shift of Q...P in the obvious way, so the top row of a 3-row alpha keyboard becomes the digits in figures shift. In baudot code, this is not the case). > are that both are five-level codes and both use letters and figures > shifts. Not even that is idetncial. In Murray code, the 'shift' codes change the state of the decoding/printing mechanism, but do noting else. In Baudot code, they print a space. That is, there's a 'figures apce' which select figures and prints a space, there's also 'letters space' which does the obvious. There is no other space character. And there are no carriage returen or linefeed codes, becuase the baudot printer printed on a paper tape -tony From schwepes at moog.netaxs.com Wed Jun 18 17:08:02 2008 From: schwepes at moog.netaxs.com (schwepes at moog.netaxs.com) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 18:08:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Apple I back up on ebay In-Reply-To: <4856AEA5.5050203@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200806161408453.SM02676@[63.69.23.239]> <4856AEA5.5050203@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: After high tide, you can have my land in Nevada. bs On Mon, 16 Jun 2008, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > tonym wrote: > > Those of you thinking otherwise, and are giving him the benefit of the doubt, boy, have I got some REALLY NICE land out here for you in Southwest Florida..... > > > > > Is that before or AFTER high tide ?! > > Tony > > > > From schwepes at moog.netaxs.com Wed Jun 18 17:09:12 2008 From: schwepes at moog.netaxs.com (schwepes at moog.netaxs.com) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 18:09:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Who turns the computer off? In-Reply-To: <151603.26028.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <151603.26028.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Off is a condition very frequent here where PECO is extorting megabucks for me to live. bs On Mon, 16 Jun 2008, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > On Mon, 16 Jun 2008, Alexandre Souza wrote: > > Turn the computer off? Does it turns off? CAN it be turned off? :oO > > I though this was a 24x7 appliance :oO > > Off is just a condition that exists when you have blown the fuse with too much hardware. I do it rather often lately. The RA90 drive on the VAX will really suck up the power, and since the PC, the Mac, the SGI Octane and their associated monitors are on the same circuit, if I'm not careful I'll take out the @#$_^.++CARRIER LOST > From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Jun 18 17:31:13 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 23:31:13 +0100 Subject: CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board In-Reply-To: <18531.1213785609@mini> References: <200806171614.m5HGEF7t020475@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4857A030.15430.AB0CF2F@cclist.sydex.com> <18531.1213785609@mini> Message-ID: <48598CB1.1040006@gjcp.net> Brad Parker wrote: > A modern car is much faster, more efficient and more reliable, but an > old 911 is more beautiful, more fun to drive and better built. You've not driven a modern car, have you? The main cause of problems with my '81 Citroen CX is that I don't drive it much, so the battery is often a bit low. My fiancee's 2002 VW Polo guzzles coil packs like no tomorrow, which no VW dealer holds in stock although it's a common problem with all petrol VWs. Oh, and it's got to go to the dealer for its next service, because it's due a firmware update. Gordon From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Jun 18 17:38:44 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 15:38:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Corestore - the Big Move In-Reply-To: <200806072247.m57MlXnx006010@floodgap.com> References: <200806072247.m57MlXnx006010@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 7 Jun 2008, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > I'm married and that realy reduces storage space. > > > > Rememeber that it's much easier to find a good wife than a good classic > > computer :-) > > Being unmarried means I get to put my server rack in the dining room. That's > better than sex. There's a married guy who kept a Nova 3 in his dining room for 20 years. Can we get some pictures of its now home? (you know who you are) -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Jun 18 17:42:21 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 15:42:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Atari 2600 AV mods In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Jun 2008, Tothwolf wrote: > On Thu, 5 Jun 2008, David Griffith wrote: > > > A couple years ago there was talk about AV mods for the Atari 2600. > > Does anyone here have a Cybertech AV mod? How is it different from the > > standard CD4050 hack? > > One of the best comparisons I found when I was originally looking at > them was this: > http://www.cheeptech.com/2600mods/2600mods.shtml > > As of right now I still haven't done either to one of my 2600s but I've > been thinking about it again lately. New development: someone on the AtariAge forums is building a new AV mod board which will be open-sourced. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Jun 18 17:46:38 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 15:46:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: with reluctance... pdp-10 for sale In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Jun 2008, Mike Ross wrote: > > I've finally gone and done it: > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150256074674 > > Don't really want to, but if a deep-pocket collector decides to bite, > it's gone. Hmm... It went to the same guy who bought that sweet PDP-8 collection a few months ago. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From tosteve at yahoo.com Wed Jun 18 18:41:26 2008 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 16:41:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: sell/donate: Wang Professional Computer in Columbus Ohio Message-ID: <457252.26985.qm@web51602.mail.re2.yahoo.com> ------------------------------------------------------------ This is not my system, please email Martha if interested. ------------------------------------------------------------ From: Martha Shaw Subject: RE: selling a Wang Wordprocessor Date: Wednesday, June 18, 2008, 3:45 PM I have a Wang word processor from the 1980's. I would like to sell it or donate it (take a deduction) if I can. It's called the Wang Professional Computer in it's manual which is copyrighted 1985. This one was used for training when the person who owned it worked at home and trained others when she worked for Wang. It works and has a printer, as well as 10 printer wheels and 11 ribbons. Martha Shaw ------------------------------------------------------------ This is not my system, please email Martha if interested. ------------------------------------------------------------ From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Jun 18 19:17:02 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 17:17:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple I back up on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <8CA9EFF12B3353D-1604-2D53@webmail-nd04.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <38983.64.62.206.10.1213834622.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> David wrote: > So, what's the value of the replica anyhow? The monetary value of something is the price that a seller and buyer are willing to agree to. If a replica sells for $2000, then its value to the seller and buyer must be $2000. From lynchaj at yahoo.com Wed Jun 18 19:25:24 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 20:25:24 -0400 Subject: Congratulations Seth! Message-ID: Hi All, Seth just built his N8VEM SBC and it worked on the first try! Congratulations Seth! Great Job! Andrew Lynch PS, this is also an important milestone; it is the first of the shipped SBC PCBs I know of to see "first boot" in the field. -----Original Message----- From: n8vem at googlegroups.com [mailto:n8vem at googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Seth Morabito Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 2:28 AM To: N8VEM Subject: [N8VEM: 108] Re: How are things going for builders? P.S.: The completed board: http://www.flickr.com/photos/twylo/2588823197/ The software, in action: http://www.flickr.com/photos/twylo/2588826647/ -Seth --~--~---------~--~----~------------~-------~--~----~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "N8VEM" group. To post to this group, send email to n8vem at googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to n8vem-unsubscribe at googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/n8vem?hl=en -~----------~----~----~----~------~----~------~--~--- From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Wed Jun 18 20:18:55 2008 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 18:18:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Corestore - the Big Move In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <448051.72020.qm@web56210.mail.re3.yahoo.com> --- On Wed, 6/18/08, Seth Morabito wrote: > From: Seth Morabito > Subject: Re: Corestore - the Big Move > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Wednesday, June 18, 2008, 5:21 PM > On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 1:45 PM, Jochen Kunz > wrote: > > On Sat, 7 Jun 2008 15:47:33 -0700 (PDT) > > Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > >> Being unmarried means I get to put my server rack > in the dining room. > >> That's better than sex. > > This is real geek porn: > > ftp://ftp.franken.de/pub/people/m/pix/comp/ > > Mein Gott in Himmel! > > Warn people next time: NSFW :) > > -Seth OMG There are not enough drugs in the world to remove those images from my mind. I'm from NYC and I thought I saw everything. From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Jun 18 20:26:38 2008 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 18:26:38 -0700 Subject: home for Tandy PT210 manuals In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 9, 2008 at 11:38 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > Does someone have a website of Tandy manuals who'd like to host the scans > of the user and service manuals for the PT210 printing terminal? I've > been hosting them for a while, but I don't have very much bandwidth to > spare. I've been planning to start hosting some things here so long as they don't generate copyright complaints. We can probably spare a little bit of bandwidth, even though we've really only got 100 Mbps to calren2 for now. From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Jun 18 20:39:25 2008 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 18:39:25 -0700 Subject: Good Composite->VGA converters for classic computers (& video games...) In-Reply-To: <484EAECD.2000304@oldskool.org> References: <4841BCBA.1070109@msu.edu> <44050.71.139.37.220.1212343467.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <484BA66F.1020503@msu.edu> <484DA5F1.1070105@oldskool.org> <484DF45B.6050006@msu.edu> <484EAECD.2000304@oldskool.org> Message-ID: >> >> Well, sure. I wasn't expecting the highest quality output for what I paid >> (but I didn't _need_ that...). But I wasn't expecting it to be unable to >> sync to half of my gear :). I'm really surprised at that. Might it be as easy as some signal conditioning? Use an LM1881 to separate the sync, and then put it back together a bit cleaner? >> I'm sure there has to be a happy medium between >> $30 and $20,000.... > > Ebay for old broadcast gear. A professional broadcast scan converter that > is 10-12 years old should go for around $250, probably even less. There are a lot of Exatron commercial quality units out there as well, but a lot of them don't quite do what you anticipate they might. Be sure to download a manual before bidding. Eric From tiggerlasv at aim.com Wed Jun 18 20:42:50 2008 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 21:42:50 -0400 Subject: Computer love (Was: Corestore - the Big Move) Message-ID: <8CA9FC4EB066217-17C0-2E51@webmail-nf20.sim.aol.com> > >> Being unmarried means I get to put my server rack > in the dining room. > >> That's better than sex. > > This is real geek porn: > > ftp://ftp.franken.de/pub/people/m/pix/comp/ > There's someone that has taken Kraftwerk a little too seriously. . . . http://music.yahoo.com/Kraftwerk/Computer-Love/lyrics/656721 I'm not sure if I'll ever be able to look at my 11/83 the same way again. ;-) T From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Jun 18 20:41:20 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 21:41:20 -0400 Subject: FW: time to part with my PDP-11 system Message-ID: <01C8D18C.2C7A5360@MSE_D03> ---------- From: M H Stein[SMTP:dm561 at torfree.net] Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 9:38 PM To: 'cctalk at classiccmp.org' Subject: time to part with my PDP-11 system ----------ORIGINAL MESSAGE: Date: Tue, 17 Jun 2008 01:52:09 +0000 From: Ethan Dicks Subject: Re: time to part with my PDP-11 system On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 03:26:15PM -0400, M H Stein wrote: > Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2008 03:54:51 +0000 > From: Ethan Dicks > Subject: Re: time to part with my PDP-11 system > > > >...Eventually, I'll do another camping trip to Hamilton... > > -ethan > --- > > I'm in Hamilton every week or so, and I have to ask: why? > ;-) The serious answer is because I have friends who live in an arc between St. Catherines and the west edge of Toronto, and every June since the early 80s, they've done a largish camping event somewhere in the Hamilton area (Knight's Dunmark Park is where it was 20 years ago, but that was turned into a golf course). While these friends aren't into classic computers at all, it does give me incentive to spend the gas to drive 7-8 hours from central Ohio, and puts me in that area for quick little side trips (like to Jerome's house) every few years. -ethan -----------REPLY: Ah, that explains it; although it's actually a very nice place aside from the steel mills and smelters, Hamilton's not really known as a tourist hot spot. If and when you do get up here again, I'd love to meet for a coffee and say hi; haven't seen Jerome in many years either despite being in the same city, but then I'm not a DECcie... Looking forward... mike ********************************************************************** From brain at jbrain.com Wed Jun 18 20:45:12 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 20:45:12 -0500 Subject: Apple I back up on ebay In-Reply-To: <38983.64.62.206.10.1213834622.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <8CA9EFF12B3353D-1604-2D53@webmail-nd04.sysops.aol.com> <38983.64.62.206.10.1213834622.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4859BA28.5040807@jbrain.com> Eric Smith wrote: > David wrote: > >> So, what's the value of the replica anyhow? >> > > The monetary value of something is the price that a seller and buyer > are willing to agree to. If a replica sells for $2000, then its value > to the seller and buyer must be $2000. > I can't tell whether the responses along these lines are honest misunderstandings or well hidden sarcasm. We all know the sale price of this item. One sale does not a trend make. Why can't someone provide either a useful answer or some useful information? From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jun 18 20:49:39 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 18:49:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Computer love (Was: Corestore - the Big Move) In-Reply-To: <8CA9FC4EB066217-17C0-2E51@webmail-nf20.sim.aol.com> from "tiggerlasv@aim.com" at "Jun 18, 8 09:42:50 pm" Message-ID: <200806190149.m5J1nebj012458@floodgap.com> > > > This is real geek porn: > > > ftp://ftp.franken.de/pub/people/m/pix/comp/ I am desperately trying to wash my brain out now. Please hand me the Drano. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I used to miss my ex-girlfriend, but then my aim improved. ----------------- From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jun 18 21:00:23 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 20:00:23 -0600 Subject: Apple I back up on ebay In-Reply-To: <38983.64.62.206.10.1213834622.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <8CA9EFF12B3353D-1604-2D53@webmail-nd04.sysops.aol.com> <38983.64.62.206.10.1213834622.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4859BDB7.3090302@jetnet.ab.ca> Eric Smith wrote: > David wrote: > >> So, what's the value of the replica anyhow? >> > > The monetary value of something is the price that a seller and buyer > are willing to agree to. If a replica sells for $2000, then its value > to the seller and buyer must be $2000. > > Unless you use Replicated $$$$'s, then more is needed. :) From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Jun 18 21:31:54 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 19:31:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple I back up on ebay In-Reply-To: <38983.64.62.206.10.1213834622.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <8CA9EFF12B3353D-1604-2D53@webmail-nd04.sysops.aol.com> <38983.64.62.206.10.1213834622.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Jun 2008, Eric Smith wrote: > David wrote: > > So, what's the value of the replica anyhow? > > The monetary value of something is the price that a seller and buyer > are willing to agree to. If a replica sells for $2000, then its value > to the seller and buyer must be $2000. I'm trying to figure out how much the replica board sold for when it was made. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ragooman at comcast.net Wed Jun 18 21:47:37 2008 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 22:47:37 -0400 Subject: Apple I back up on ebay In-Reply-To: <4859BA28.5040807@jbrain.com> References: <8CA9EFF12B3353D-1604-2D53@webmail-nd04.sysops.aol.com> <38983.64.62.206.10.1213834622.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <4859BA28.5040807@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4859C8C9.5030002@comcast.net> Jim Brain wrote: > Eric Smith wrote: >> If a replica sells for $2000, then its value >> to the seller and buyer must be $2000. >> > I can't tell whether the responses along these lines are honest > misunderstandings or well hidden sarcasm. > > We all know the sale price of this item. One sale does not a trend > make. Why can't someone provide either a useful answer or some useful > information? > > On eBay, these type of sellers try to manipulate the "trends", the sale price that is. I bet the seller *knows* who the buyer is and arranged this auction to be sold. Just so that the history logs on eBay will have this on record as a legitimate sale for future reference. This is then further abused when uninformed people refer to this past auction as a reference to bid on future auctions for this item. =Dan [ "go get 'em" ] [ Pittsburgh --- http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Jun 18 22:13:54 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 23:13:54 -0400 Subject: non-CP/M Z80 board In-Reply-To: <4858CBD8.3424.C15E6@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200806181358.m5IDw08Y037198@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4858CBD8.3424.C15E6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <8CB1770C-E0AE-4AF7-AEE8-DBBD3025B1EB@neurotica.com> On Jun 18, 2008, at 11:48 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> They're all over the place. I have at least one tube of *brand >> new* NMOS Z80 (not-A) chips here...cost me all of three bucks on eBay >> in '06 or so. Need any? > > I think the chips under discussion were the 8085 specialty chips, > 8155, 8355, 8755, etc. Got tubes of those? I've got a dozen or so 8755s, two or three 8155s, and no 8355s. Not tube quantities, unfortunately. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Jun 18 22:22:51 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 20:22:51 -0700 Subject: Computer love (Was: Corestore - the Big Move) In-Reply-To: <200806190149.m5J1nebj012458@floodgap.com> References: <200806190149.m5J1nebj012458@floodgap.com> Message-ID: At 6:49 PM -0700 6/18/08, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > At 10:45 PM +0200 6/18/08, Jochen Kunz wrote: > > > > This is real geek porn: >> > > ftp://ftp.franken.de/pub/people/m/pix/comp/ > >I am desperately trying to wash my brain out now. Please hand me the Drano. Sorry, I need all the Drano I have and more after seeing that. I think Jochen needs to do some sort of penance for posting that, especially since he didn't post a warning with it. Something like only being allowed to use MS Vista from now on, and even that isn't punishment enough! Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jun 18 22:30:18 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 20:30:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Gopher for Firefox 3 Message-ID: <200806190330.m5J3UI73014096@floodgap.com> I think Gopher is definitely on-topic due to its age, and being a simple hypertext system that is very well suited to classic computers with low horsepower. (More about that in a few months.) In the last few days I finished an extension for Firefox 2 and 3 with improved support for Gopherspace in Mozilla, including a skinnable new interface and CSO/ph/qi queries. I think people who haven't played in Gopherspace in a long time will be surprised at the landscape. Even though even UMN has abandoned the venerable gopher.tc.umn.edu, the population has shifted to small servers and personal sites and a frontier atmosphere that's almost "the way it used to be." I still get an announcement about a new server every week on average, which is not bad for an allegedly "dead" protocol that's over 15 years old. gopher://gopher.floodgap.com/1/overbite/ or http://gopher.floodgap.com/overbite/ or https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/7685 I'd appreciate your comments and suggestions. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "I'd love to go out with you, but I need to clean my toilet brush." -------- From tiggerlasv at aim.com Wed Jun 18 22:33:15 2008 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 23:33:15 -0400 Subject: What's the value of. . . (Was: Apple I back up on ebay) Message-ID: <8CA9FD457EE89A6-17FC-31B9@webmail-nc18.sysops.aol.com> >> The monetary value of something is the price that a seller and buyer >> are willing to agree to. If a replica sells for $2000, then its value >> to the seller and buyer must be $2000. > > I can't tell whether the responses along these lines are honest > misunderstandings or well hidden sarcasm. > > We all know the sale price of this item. One sale does not a trend > make. Why can't someone provide either a useful answer or some useful > information? I don't know that there is an authoritative answer to that, or to most other "what's it worth" type questions about vintage computer equipment. Consider for example "The Antiques Roadshow", or auction houses like Sotheby's. There are a number of folks out there who are experienced at appraising artwork, old furniture, classic automobiles, and a plethora of other items. Most of which has been around for many many years. Can the same be said of the computer and/or electronics industry? I think the market is still in it's infancy, and there's probably not enough interest in the vintage equipment to support expert opinions. (Yet.) Case in point: Check out this VERY cool Predicta television: http://www.flickr.com/photos/72154009 at N00/2186381451/ I'm sure there are a number of folks out there who could give you a reasonably accurate opinion about the overall value of this unit. This is in part due to the niche market interest in old electronics such as this. And it's been around for a number of years. Now, who could tell me definitively, the "value" of this 1976 Magnavox? http://www.tvhistory.tv/1976%20Magnavox%20TV.JPG Probably not a whole heck of alot of people. There were a large number of them made. But there's not alot of interest in it, because it's still "fairly" new, and by the time it started to wear out, we had moved into an age when people didn't hold on to their old electronics, they just threw them out, and got new stuff. I find that people who ask "what's it worth?" can be divided into two categories. Either they haven't a clue, and are too lazy to do the research, or, they have an idea of what they want, but don't want to lose out by paying too much, or charging too little. Buyer's / Seller's remorse. Do the research! Find out what they've sold for in the past. Look at ALL the prices, high and low, and see if it jibes with what you think it's worth. And don't assume that you'll get the same amount as others have; there are simply too many variables. Research is sometimes very difficult with unique or limited-availability items, which brings us back to the original topic: Is a potentially non-working Apple I clone worth $2000 to me? No. Is it worth $200 to me? No. But then, I'm not a collector of Apples. As a rule of thumb, we shouldn't be asking the question "What does someone else think it's worth?", we should be asking the more important question, "What is it worth TO ME?" This applies to both buying and selling. Either way, if you buy and sell based on the opinions of a limited number of people, you'll eventually end up getting burned. Um, yeah. . . If you give me $10, I'll be happy to haul away that old Altair for you. . . ;-) Regards, T ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------ Note: The opinions expressed above do not necessary reflect the views and opinions of the author. From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Jun 19 00:40:05 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 00:40:05 -0500 Subject: Gopher for Firefox 3 In-Reply-To: <200806190330.m5J3UI73014096@floodgap.com> References: <200806190330.m5J3UI73014096@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730806182240t4a01aa9es99aac52efc9ecea@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Jun 18, 2008 at 10:30 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > In the last few days I finished an extension for Firefox 2 and 3 with > improved support for Gopherspace in Mozilla, including a skinnable new Installed the plugin, haven't had a chance to test it thoroughly but it seems to work fine. Very cool project, though! My first contact with the Internet was in 1991 at UIUC (jht56010 at uxa.cso.uiuc.edu!) and while I was probably using IRC, FTP and telnet more frequently, I do remember gopher and definitely ph! Wish I still had a copy of my ph record... (Person-Name!) Ahh, fond memories of the dorm labs with the PS/2s and Mac SE/30s (some of which ran the networked multiplayer Sceptre game) and the lovely rows of even then very outdated terminals in the basement of the English building. Wish I knew what kind they were (tho I believe uxa.cso was a Sequent mini. Anyone on the list there back then?) "This is the old way; you will not see this again." -- jht From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 19 00:44:52 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 22:44:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple I back up on ebay In-Reply-To: <4859C8C9.5030002@comcast.net> References: <8CA9EFF12B3353D-1604-2D53@webmail-nd04.sysops.aol.com> <38983.64.62.206.10.1213834622.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <4859BA28.5040807@jbrain.com> <4859C8C9.5030002@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20080618224414.H70788@shell.lmi.net> OK That particular machine is worth 1,999 counterfeit dollars. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 19 00:49:46 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 22:49:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Computer love (Was: Corestore - the Big Move) In-Reply-To: References: <200806190149.m5J1nebj012458@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20080618224904.C70788@shell.lmi.net> > >> > > ftp://ftp.franken.de/pub/people/m/pix/comp/ > >I am desperately trying to wash my brain out now. Please hand me the Drano. JIF and naval jelly From steerex at ccvn.com Wed Jun 18 06:02:23 2008 From: steerex at ccvn.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 07:02:23 -0400 Subject: Low Cost EPROM programmer (Ben, this is for you) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1213786943.2147.10.camel@bart> On Tue, 2008-06-17 at 21:49 -0400, Andrew Lynch wrote: > Ben, if you need a low cost EPROM programmer just go get yourself a junk PC > (practically free) and for $20 on Ebay Buy-It-Now (or less if you are > patient), get a Willem Programmer. > I bought a Willem Programmer a couple of years ago off Ebay and paid around $40 for it. I use it for 27Cxxx's but it will also do 24Cxx, 25Cxx, 93Cxx, and PICs. I love it! There seems to be a LOT of variants out there so, make sure the one you get will work with your specific chips. I wish there was a good LINUX based IDE for it. -- Steve Robertson steerex [at] ccvn [dot] com From les at hildenbrandt.com Wed Jun 18 08:21:35 2008 From: les at hildenbrandt.com (Les Hildenbrandt) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 07:21:35 -0600 Subject: CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board In-Reply-To: <200806180703.m5I72qrV033170@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200806180703.m5I72qrV033170@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <48590BDF.9010301@hildenbrandt.com> The 279x (1,3,7) series chips actualy had a working pll data seperator. Here is a link to the 279x controller chip data sheet: http://retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/fdc_datasheet.pdf As I recall, the 179x series chips could not reliably do sector reads from disks formated on a 177x controller. The 179x could do a track read of the disk. Morrow provided a program with the Disk Jocky controller which would do track reads, then write the track back out creating a disk which worked well with either the 177x or 179x series controllers. It was not a common issue, as very few people used single density once double density became available, and new single density disks worked well with either controller. Les From jvdg at jvdg.net Wed Jun 18 16:48:12 2008 From: jvdg at jvdg.net (Joost van de Griek) Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 23:48:12 +0200 Subject: Need Mac OS 6.0.4 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8FD67A12-25D2-4324-8B59-127F62A571E6@jvdg.net> On Jun 18, 2008, at 20:56, Sellam Ismail wrote: > I need Mac OS 6.0.4 in a format that can be downloaded with a PC > (under > WinXP), then moved to a disk that will boot on a Mac (IIci). > > Can someone help? If so, please contact me directly. Does it have to be 6.0.4 specifically? First place to try would be Jag's House: . Another resource for old Mac OS files is Gamba's site, the link to which is not to be posted, so Google will have to be your friend, there. Jag used to have instructions for getting old Mac system software onto bootable media using Windows, IIRC. ,xtG .tsooJ -- You can live to be a hundred if you give up all the things that make you want to live to be a hundred. - Woody Allen -- Joost van de Griek From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Jun 19 03:17:40 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 01:17:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need Mac OS 6.0.4 In-Reply-To: <8FD67A12-25D2-4324-8B59-127F62A571E6@jvdg.net> References: <8FD67A12-25D2-4324-8B59-127F62A571E6@jvdg.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Jun 2008, Joost van de Griek wrote: > On Jun 18, 2008, at 20:56, Sellam Ismail wrote: > > > I need Mac OS 6.0.4 in a format that can be downloaded with a PC > > (under > > WinXP), then moved to a disk that will boot on a Mac (IIci). > > > > Can someone help? If so, please contact me directly. > > Does it have to be 6.0.4 specifically? First place to try would be > Jag's House: . > > Another resource for old Mac OS files is Gamba's site, the link to > which is not to be posted, so Google will have to be your friend, there. > > Jag used to have instructions for getting old Mac system software onto > bootable media using Windows, IIRC. >From an XP machine, you'll need these: Rawrite: ftp://ftp.slackware.com/pub/slackware/slackware-7.0/bootdsks.144/RAWRITE.EXE Stuffit expander: ftp://ftp.ucalgary.ca/pub/micros/win95/util/ALEX511.EXE Here's how I do it: 1) Get the appropriate *.sea.bin files from Apple's website. Make sure you get the 1.4MB images because you won't be able to write the 800k images unless you have a Catweasel, and even then, I'm not sure how to do it. 2) Make a new directory and Unstuff the disk image there. 3) Unstuff the resulting .sea.data file and you should get a file named "System Startup" or "System Additions" depending on which image you unstuffed. 4) Execute "dd if=System\ Startup of=/dev/fd0 bs=84 skip=1" or use Rawrite. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From mike at brickfieldspark.org Thu Jun 19 03:49:48 2008 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 09:49:48 +0100 Subject: [personal] Re: with reluctance... pdp-10 for sale References: Message-ID: <003f01c8d1e9$6e775a80$961ca8c0@mss.local> Can't compete against such really deep pockets !. Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Griffith" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2008 11:46 PM Subject: [personal] Re: with reluctance... pdp-10 for sale > On Fri, 6 Jun 2008, Mike Ross wrote: > >> >> I've finally gone and done it: >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150256074674 >> >> Don't really want to, but if a deep-pocket collector decides to bite, >> it's gone. > > Hmm... It went to the same guy who bought that sweet PDP-8 collection a > few months ago. > > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > > From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Jun 19 05:25:19 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 07:25:19 -0300 Subject: Computer love (Was: Corestore - the Big Move) References: <200806190149.m5J1nebj012458@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <0ef001c8d1f7$7638cb60$0102a8c0@portajara> >>> > > ftp://ftp.franken.de/pub/people/m/pix/comp/ This guy deserves a savage beating with bus+tag cables :P From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Jun 19 05:26:30 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 07:26:30 -0300 Subject: Atari 2600 AV mods References: Message-ID: <0ef101c8d1f7$7676bec0$0102a8c0@portajara> >> As of right now I still haven't done either to one of my 2600s but I've >> been thinking about it again lately. > New development: someone on the AtariAge forums is building a new AV mod > board which will be open-sourced. I just use some resistors and a cap, has a very nice image on screen :P From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jun 19 07:41:21 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 05:41:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Gopher for Firefox 3 In-Reply-To: <51ea77730806182240t4a01aa9es99aac52efc9ecea@mail.gmail.com> from Jason T at "Jun 19, 8 00:40:05 am" Message-ID: <200806191241.m5JCfLGV012934@floodgap.com> > > In the last few days I finished an extension for Firefox 2 and 3 with > > improved support for Gopherspace in Mozilla, including a skinnable new > > Installed the plugin, haven't had a chance to test it thoroughly but > it seems to work fine. Very cool project, though! My first contact > with the Internet was in 1991 at UIUC (jht56010 at uxa.cso.uiuc.edu!) and > while I was probably using IRC, FTP and telnet more frequently, I do > remember gopher and definitely ph! Wish I still had a copy of my ph > record... (Person-Name!) There are still some CSO/ph servers out there which was why I added the support. It's pretty trivial anyway, not sure why it wasn't in the first place. > Ahh, fond memories of the dorm labs with the PS/2s and Mac SE/30s > (some of which ran the networked multiplayer Sceptre game) and the > lovely rows of even then very outdated terminals in the basement of > the English building. Wish I knew what kind they were (tho I believe > uxa.cso was a Sequent mini. Anyone on the list there back then?) > > "This is the old way; you will not see this again." I'm still trying to find out the terminals that sat in AP&M 2337 at UCSD. I spent more time there than the old Mac labs (which were always occupied by people playing Bolo and, later, Marathon). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Experience varies directly with amount of equipment ruined. ---------------- From vrs at msn.com Thu Jun 19 09:12:26 2008 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 07:12:26 -0700 Subject: Computer love (Was: Corestore - the Big Move) References: <200806190149.m5J1nebj012458@floodgap.com> <0ef001c8d1f7$7638cb60$0102a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: >>>> > > ftp://ftp.franken.de/pub/people/m/pix/comp/ > > This guy deserves a savage beating with bus+tag cables :P Just be sure there are no cameras around when you administer the punishment! From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Jun 19 10:06:57 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 10:06:57 -0500 Subject: CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board In-Reply-To: <48598CB1.1040006@gjcp.net> References: <200806171614.m5HGEF7t020475@dewey.classiccmp.org> <4857A030.15430.AB0CF2F@cclist.sydex.com> <18531.1213785609@mini> <48598CB1.1040006@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <485A7611.9040508@gmail.com> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Oh, and it's got to go to the dealer for its next service, because > it's due a firmware update. Gah, I just foresaw the future, where every car has mobile Internet, and downloads firmware updates automatically whilst the car's in motion... bleh! > Yeah... sorry! J. From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Jun 19 10:51:13 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 11:51:13 -0400 Subject: CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board In-Reply-To: <485A7611.9040508@gmail.com> References: <200806171614.m5HGEF7t020475@dewey.classiccmp.org> <48598CB1.1040006@gjcp.net> <485A7611.9040508@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200806191151.13820.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 19 June 2008 11:06, Jules Richardson wrote: > Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > Oh, and it's got to go to the dealer for its next service, because > > it's due a firmware update. > > Gah, I just foresaw the future, where every car has mobile Internet, and > downloads firmware updates automatically whilst the car's in motion... > bleh! > > > > > Yeah... sorry! > > J. Ick. I'm happy to have an *old* truck where the only electronics in there are the voltage regulator and the ignition module (because breaker points are a PITA :-). Post-EMP I can drop a couple of alternative parts in there and it'll still run just fine... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Jun 19 10:52:41 2008 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 08:52:41 -0700 Subject: invading varmints In-Reply-To: <1213253843.3700.5.camel@elric> References: <200806091700.m59H0QPQ024486@dewey.classiccmp.org> <484D0755.16009.8895FB@cclist.sydex.com> <1213253843.3700.5.camel@elric> Message-ID: For things stored in open sheds or outside, wasps are probably the biggest worry, but they usually give significant warning and you'll probably get your first sting well before you get close to the nest. Last time I checked, yellow jackets were the leading "direct" cause of death by insect (i.e. not counting insect borne diseases) in this country. Honeybees, while much more docile, will make a mess of a machine if they take up residence for too long. Fortunately it's easy to find someone who will take them off your hands. A healthy colony might be worth a couple hundred bucks to a bee keeper. Or you might want to keep them yourself. They're pretty good at keeping wasps from building nests nearby. Black widows will depart if you open their hiding place to the light for any significant length of time. I wouldn't let them hang out in your house, though, especially if you have cats. Cats are especially susceptible to black widow bites. Rodents are probably my biggest worry due to the diseases they carry. (Plague, Hantavirus, ...) From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jun 19 11:52:52 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 09:52:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Computer love (Was: Corestore - the Big Move) In-Reply-To: <0ef001c8d1f7$7638cb60$0102a8c0@portajara> References: <200806190149.m5J1nebj012458@floodgap.com> <0ef001c8d1f7$7638cb60$0102a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <20080619095233.O89618@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 19 Jun 2008, Alexandre Souza wrote: > >>> > > ftp://ftp.franken.de/pub/people/m/pix/comp/ > This guy deserves a savage beating with bus+tag cables :P He would like that From mikelee at tdh.com Thu Jun 19 11:56:30 2008 From: mikelee at tdh.com (Michael Lee) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 11:56:30 -0500 Subject: AT&T 3B1 Unix PC Message-ID: <485A8FBE.9050103@tdh.com> Anyone collect and/or need parts to the AT&T Unix PC? I've got a pile of systems I dismantled over a decade ago, and don't really want or know how to put back together. I bought them "new" as surplus by the pallet at the time, and about half of them were defective with only displaying horizontal lines when turned on. The monitors are perfect, I also have the 20Mb MFM drives and 5.25" drives, as well as the mainboards, plastics etc. I'm not sure exactly how many and what I have yet, but checking for interest here. Please reply if these are of interest at all. Any suggestions on the line problem? Mike Lee From frustum at pacbell.net Thu Jun 19 12:18:46 2008 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 12:18:46 -0500 Subject: IBM 5120 in austin, tx Message-ID: <485A94F6.1010307@pacbell.net> A few years back I bought an IBM 5120, then I spent more money collecting some manuals. Sadly, I've never had the time to do anything with it, and I don't foresee doing so. Here is a picture of one and some info, directly from IBM: http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/pc/pc_6.html Now, this thing weights a ton (>100 lbs), and I don't feel like packing it and shipping it. It is in Austin, TX. Although I have about $500 sunk into it, I realize that by not shipping it my market is dramatically reduced. Therefore, I'll sell it for $250 if you can come and get it. It boots into BASIC and runs fine. Because I don't have the terminator, and because the internal floppy disks hang off that bus, they floppies won't work until you acquire or build a terminator. The machine also comes with a technical and user manuals, although nothing that isn't already on bitsavers, I believe. There are also four 8" floppies, including a diagnostic disk. Cosmetically it is decent, used but not too yellowed, except for an unfortunate cracked off corner in the rear, which I still have. Despite that defect, it is still a functioning unit. From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Jun 19 12:42:32 2008 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 10:42:32 -0700 Subject: CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board In-Reply-To: <41966.64.62.206.10.1213649910.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <200806161700.m5GH0aoC057924@dewey.classiccmp.org> <48564990.17681.5767175@cclist.sydex.com> <41966.64.62.206.10.1213649910.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 1:58 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > With a Z80 a typical read transfer loop takes a minimum of 52 clocks, > which on a 2 MHz Z80 meets the requirements for all but 8" double density, > which requires a faster processor, DMA, or special tricks. Having missed the first part of this discussion, are we limiting ourselves to a Z80? If not, I'd nominate a Z80A or Z80B. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 19 12:56:23 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 10:56:23 -0700 Subject: CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board In-Reply-To: <200806191704.m5JH4Vvl057146@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200806191704.m5JH4Vvl057146@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <485A3B57.7660.719F73@cclist.sydex.com> Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 07:21:35 -0600 From: Les Hildenbrandt > The 279x (1,3,7) series chips actualy had a working pll data seperator. > Here is a link to the 279x controller chip data sheet: > http://retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/fdc_datasheet.pdf > As I recall, the 179x series chips could not reliably do sector reads from > disks formated on a 177x controller. The 179x could do a track read of > the disk. Morrow provided a program with the Disk Jocky controller which > would do track reads, then write the track back out creating a disk which > worked well with either the 177x or 179x series controllers. It was not a > common issue, as very few people used single density once double density > became available, and new single density disks worked well with either > controller. Careful Les--the 177x that you're probably speaking about is the 1771- -the 70/72/73 are very different (and much later) animals with integrated data separators. AFAIK, the 1771 is the only member of your "177x" family. Well, there was the 1781, but that was a very different animal (M2FM) and is very hard to find (I doubt that even Unicorn has them or has ever had them). Fred's right--the 1771 *did* have an on-board data separator, but it was such a joke that even WD discouraged its use. Cheers, Chuck From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Thu Jun 19 13:04:45 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 19:04:45 +0100 Subject: CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board In-Reply-To: <200806191151.13820.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200806171614.m5HGEF7t020475@dewey.classiccmp.org> <48598CB1.1040006@gjcp.net> <485A7611.9040508@gmail.com> <200806191151.13820.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <485A9FBD.9030709@gjcp.net> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > I'm happy to have an *old* truck where the only electronics in there are the > voltage regulator and the ignition module (because breaker points are a > PITA :-). > > Post-EMP I can drop a couple of alternative parts in there and it'll still run > just fine... We should take this to roys-tech-chat... I've driven an '88 Citroen CX diesel with no functioning electrics at all. Just took the slug out of the stop solenoid and bumpstarted it. I'll let you imagine the fun involved in starting a two-tonne car that has no brakes or steering until the engine's been running for 20 seconds... Gordon From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Jun 19 13:36:51 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 11:36:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AT&T 3B1 Unix PC In-Reply-To: <485A8FBE.9050103@tdh.com> References: <485A8FBE.9050103@tdh.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jun 2008, Michael Lee wrote: > Anyone collect and/or need parts to the AT&T Unix PC? I've got a pile > of systems I dismantled over a decade ago, and don't really want or know > how to put back together. I bought them "new" as surplus by the pallet > at the time, and about half of them were defective with only displaying > horizontal lines when turned on. The monitors are perfect, I also have > the 20Mb MFM drives and 5.25" drives, as well as the mainboards, > plastics etc. I'm not sure exactly how many and what I have yet, but > checking for interest here. Please reply if these are of interest at all. > > Any suggestions on the line problem? I might be interested once I get my own 3b1 out of the garage and running. That should be in a week. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From ajp166 at verizon.net Thu Jun 19 14:10:48 2008 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 15:10:48 -0400 Subject: CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board In-Reply-To: References: <200806161700.m5GH0aoC057924@dewey.classiccmp.org> <48564990.17681.5767175@cclist.sydex.com> <41966.64.62.206.10.1213649910.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <485AAF38.9040903@verizon.net> Eric J Korpela wrote: > On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 1:58 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > > >> With a Z80 a typical read transfer loop takes a minimum of 52 clocks, >> which on a 2 MHz Z80 meets the requirements for all but 8" double density, >> which requires a faster processor, DMA, or special tricks. >> > > > Having missed the first part of this discussion, are we limiting ourselves > to a Z80? If not, I'd nominate a Z80A or Z80B. > > for the discussion there is minmally z80a (2.5mhz) for timing for FDC loops. The faster 4,6,8 and 10mhz parts can solve the issue with brute force speed. Allison From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Jun 19 14:17:17 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 15:17:17 -0400 Subject: Gopher for Firefox 3 In-Reply-To: <200806190330.m5J3UI73014096@floodgap.com> References: <200806190330.m5J3UI73014096@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <9ED86D88-D133-4962-806F-0CD49C7E6B93@neurotica.com> On Jun 18, 2008, at 11:30 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > I think Gopher is definitely on-topic due to its age, and being a > simple > hypertext system that is very well suited to classic computers with > low > horsepower. (More about that in a few months.) > > In the last few days I finished an extension for Firefox 2 and 3 with > improved support for Gopherspace in Mozilla, including a skinnable new > interface and CSO/ph/qi queries. I think people who haven't played in > Gopherspace in a long time will be surprised at the landscape. Even > though > even UMN has abandoned the venerable gopher.tc.umn.edu, the > population has > shifted to small servers and personal sites and a frontier > atmosphere that's > almost "the way it used to be." I still get an announcement about a > new > server every week on average, which is not bad for an allegedly "dead" > protocol that's over 15 years old. That is just too damn cool. I was a regular user of gopher in the early 1990s but haven't seen it since, oh, probably 1994 or so. I'll pull down your plugin and give it a shot. Thanks for writing it! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From innfoclassics at gmail.com Thu Jun 19 14:18:26 2008 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 12:18:26 -0700 Subject: AT&T 3B1 Unix PC In-Reply-To: <485A8FBE.9050103@tdh.com> References: <485A8FBE.9050103@tdh.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 9:56 AM, Michael Lee wrote: > Anyone collect and/or need parts to the AT&T Unix PC? I've got a pile of > systems I dismantled over a decade ago, and don't really want or know how to > put back together. I bought them "new" as surplus by the pallet at the > time, and about half of them were defective with only displaying horizontal > lines when turned on. The monitors are perfect, I also have the 20Mb MFM > drives and 5.25" drives, as well as the mainboards, plastics etc. I'm not > sure exactly how many and what I have yet, but checking for interest here. > Please reply if these are of interest at all. Location Please, I would be interested if close to Oregon or Washington. I had several of those systems about 1990. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jun 19 14:33:29 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 12:33:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board In-Reply-To: <48590BDF.9010301@hildenbrandt.com> References: <200806180703.m5I72qrV033170@dewey.classiccmp.org> <48590BDF.9010301@hildenbrandt.com> Message-ID: <40153.64.62.206.10.1213904009.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Les wrote: > As I recall, the 179x series chips could not reliably do sector reads from > disks formated on a 177x controller. The 179x can read disks formatted on a 1771 just fine. What the 179x can't do is distinguish nonstandard data marks. Most people using the 1771 were smart enough to use the standard data marks. Unfortunately, TRS-DOS for the Radio Shack TRS-80 Model I did use nonstandard marks. The IBM-standard formats have two different data marks, for normal data and deleted data. The 1771 and 179x can both read and write those data marks, and on read, distinguish between them. However, the 1771 also supports two non-standard data mark patterns, which it can write, and distinguish on read. On the 179x, it is not possible to distinguish the non-standard data marks from the standard ones. It's possible to write the non-standard ones during formatting, but not when writing a sector. This is why the "doubler" products for the TRS-80 Model 1 didn't completely replace the 1771 with a 1791, but instead put them in parallel and added switching logic. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jun 19 14:36:23 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 12:36:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple I back up on ebay In-Reply-To: <4859BA28.5040807@jbrain.com> References: <8CA9EFF12B3353D-1604-2D53@webmail-nd04.sysops.aol.com> <38983.64.62.206.10.1213834622.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <4859BA28.5040807@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <40170.64.62.206.10.1213904183.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Jim wrote: > We all know the sale price of this item. One sale does not a trend > make. Why can't someone provide either a useful answer or some useful > information? If only one has been sold in a public forum in recent times, what "useful information" could there possibly be? Are you asking us to speculate on what the price would be if there were five units being sold this week instead of just one? From mikelee at tdh.com Thu Jun 19 14:50:31 2008 From: mikelee at tdh.com (Michael Lee) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 14:50:31 -0500 Subject: Apple I back up on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <8CA9EFF12B3353D-1604-2D53@webmail-nd04.sysops.aol.com> <38983.64.62.206.10.1213834622.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <485AB887.2010901@tdh.com> I believe I paid $299 for the "basic parts kit" when I got mine off ebay from obtronix. A few afterwards went for about double that, and up to $1000 for a fully tested and assembled kit. Very well done, any ideas what happened to "obtronix" and why no more? Mike David Griffith wrote: > On Wed, 18 Jun 2008, Eric Smith wrote: > > >> David wrote: >> >>> So, what's the value of the replica anyhow? >>> >> The monetary value of something is the price that a seller and buyer >> are willing to agree to. If a replica sells for $2000, then its value >> to the seller and buyer must be $2000. >> > > I'm trying to figure out how much the replica board sold for when it was > made. > > From sellam at vintagetech.com Thu Jun 19 15:06:31 2008 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 13:06:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Earl(y|iest) recording of computer music Message-ID: This is very cool: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7458479.stm -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From RichA at vulcan.com Thu Jun 19 15:45:32 2008 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 13:45:32 -0700 Subject: invading varmints In-Reply-To: References: <200806091700.m59H0QPQ024486@dewey.classiccmp.org><484D0755.16009.8895FB@cclist.sydex.com><1213253843.3700.5.camel@elric> Message-ID: > From: Eric J Korpela > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2008 8:53 AM > Black widows will depart if you open their hiding place to the light for any > significant length of time. That's interesting. My first ever encounter with a black widow, at age 11 or so, was on the front porch of my grandmother's mother-in-law's house, on a sunny summer day in south-central Oklahoma, on a web slung between a rocking chair and the wall. Not much hiding in the dark there. Nor much evidence that she was trying to get away. Thanks, Rich Rich Alderson RichA at vulcan.com Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project (206) 342-2239 Vulcan, Inc., 505 5th Avenue S, Seattle, WA 98104 (206) 465-2916 cell From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Jun 19 15:57:41 2008 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 15:57:41 -0500 Subject: AT&T 3B1 Unix PC In-Reply-To: <200806191704.m5JH4Vvf057146@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200806191704.m5JH4Vvf057146@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 12:04 -0500 6/19/08, Michael Lee wrote: >Anyone collect and/or need parts to the AT&T Unix PC? I've got a pile >of systems I dismantled over a decade ago, and don't really want or know >how to put back together. All, I have a working one, and a fair amount of documentation. I have not spent enough time with it to be considered any kind of "expert" but I may be able to answer some questions. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable can pipe up here. The systems seem pretty cool, although they are kind of rudimentary as unix workstations. Michael, where are you? I.e. where would shipping be from? -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Jun 19 15:57:08 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 15:57:08 -0500 Subject: CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board In-Reply-To: <485A9FBD.9030709@gjcp.net> References: <200806171614.m5HGEF7t020475@dewey.classiccmp.org> <48598CB1.1040006@gjcp.net> <485A7611.9040508@gmail.com> <200806191151.13820.rtellason@verizon.net> <485A9FBD.9030709@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <485AC824.2040307@gmail.com> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > We should take this to roys-tech-chat... Is that a mailing list? If so... where? I don't do web-based forums*, I'm afraid. * for various reasons probably well understood by many on this list :) From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 18 22:35:06 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 04:35:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: Corestore - the Big Move In-Reply-To: from "David Griffith" at Jun 18, 8 03:38:44 pm Message-ID: > There's a married guy who kept a Nova 3 in his dining room for 20 years. > Can we get some pictures of its now home? (you know who you are) I am still wondering how I managed to convince my parents to let me put a PDP11/45 system (2 racks + RK07 drives) and a PERQ in the hall. And to fill most of the other rooms of the house with old computers and related bits... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 18 22:42:01 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 04:42:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: non-CP/M Z80 board In-Reply-To: <8CB1770C-E0AE-4AF7-AEE8-DBBD3025B1EB@neurotica.com> from "Dave McGuire" at Jun 18, 8 11:13:54 pm Message-ID: > > I think the chips under discussion were the 8085 specialty chips, > > 8155, 8355, 8755, etc. Got tubes of those? > > I've got a dozen or so 8755s, two or three 8155s, and no 8355s. > Not tube quantities, unfortunately. IIRC the 8355 was the mask-progeammed part, so it's not suprising you don't have any of those, If you did, they proably wouldn't contain the code you wanted :-). The 8755 was the EPROM part, and at least one version had a quartz windo for erasure (I don't know if there was an OTP type). The 8155 was RAM. All had I/O as well. There's also the 8156, which is the same as the 8155 (RAM + I/O) but with an active-high chip select. Not as common as the 8155. Of course you can use normal RAM and EPROM with the 8085 is you add and address latch. An 74x373, or the 74x573 which as a saner pinout, is a common choice. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 18 22:37:48 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 04:37:48 +0100 (BST) Subject: Corestore - the Big Move In-Reply-To: <448051.72020.qm@web56210.mail.re3.yahoo.com> from "Christian Liendo" at Jun 18, 8 06:18:55 pm Message-ID: > > > This is real geek porn: > > > ftp://ftp.franken.de/pub/people/m/pix/comp/ > > > > Mein Gott in Himmel! > > > > Warn people next time: NSFW :) > > > > -Seth > > > OMG There are not enough drugs in the world to remove those images from my mind. I've seen plenty of pictures of nude people with props carefully positioned to obscure the, shall I say, 'naughty bits'. But the couple of pictres I looked at there seemd to show interesting computers with a naked person oscruing some interesting details. And FWIW, I am much more likely to want to see the computer than the person -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Jun 18 22:32:46 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 04:32:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board In-Reply-To: <48590BDF.9010301@hildenbrandt.com> from "Les Hildenbrandt" at Jun 18, 8 07:21:35 am Message-ID: > > The 279x (1,3,7) series chips actualy had a working pll data seperator. I thought there were more varients than that, but I don't haev the WD data sheet in front of me. The PLL is quite easy to set up (there's a test pin on the chip that you have to ground after reset IIRC, and then you get 3 wavefroms on 3 pins of the chip that have to set to the right frequency or pulse width using the 3 tweakers), but you need a 'scope. FWIW this chip was used in some HP floppy drive units, permanently strapped for MFM (double-density) use. > Here is a link to the 279x controller chip data sheet: > http://retrotechnology.com/herbs_stuff/fdc_datasheet.pdf > As I recall, the 179x series chips could not reliably do sector reads > from disks formated on a 177x controller. The 179x could do a track > read of the disk. Morrow provided a program with the Disk Jocky > controller which would do track reads, then write > the track back out creating a disk which worked well with either the > 177x or 179x series controllers. It was not a common issue, as very few > people used single density once double density became available, and new > single density disks worked well with either controller. Eh? The 1770, 1772 (== 1770 with different step rates) and 1773 can all do MFM operation, The 1771 is FM (single density) only, and has the feature of beine able to write some odd data markers. I have never had any prolems reading disks between a CoCo (using a 1773 controller) and a Model 4 (1793 controller). The only problem comes with the Model 1 (1771), which did use one of those strange markers on the directory track. -tony From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Jun 19 17:17:35 2008 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 15:17:35 -0700 Subject: invading varmints In-Reply-To: References: <200806091700.m59H0QPQ024486@dewey.classiccmp.org> <484D0755.16009.8895FB@cclist.sydex.com> <1213253843.3700.5.camel@elric> Message-ID: They must make them brave in OK. Out here if you want to collect black widows you turn flower pots upside down, look in the potting shed or lift some logs on the wood pile. Around here I don't think I've ever seen one out in the open except after dark. If you do see a web on a fence or a railing the spider will probably be hiding in a shady corner during the day. Eric From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Jun 19 17:34:42 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 18:34:42 -0400 Subject: CP-M Z80 home brew computer circuit board In-Reply-To: <485AC824.2040307@gmail.com> References: <200806171614.m5HGEF7t020475@dewey.classiccmp.org> <485A9FBD.9030709@gjcp.net> <485AC824.2040307@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200806191834.42707.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 19 June 2008 16:57, Jules Richardson wrote: > Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > We should take this to roys-tech-chat... > > Is that a mailing list? If so... where? I don't do web-based forums*, I'm > afraid. > > * for various reasons probably well understood by many on this list :) It's my yahoo group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/roys-tech-chat/ and you have your choice about how you access it. It's "for things that don't quite fit in elsewhere" among other things... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Jun 19 17:41:04 2008 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 15:41:04 -0700 Subject: AT&T 3B1 Unix PC In-Reply-To: References: <200806191704.m5JH4Vvf057146@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: I have one as well. I think mine has the 7300 stamp rather than the UnixPC name. It's got the 8086 coprocessor board to run DOS apps. I have the dev kit, a few OS revs, and a pile of documentation. For it's time it was a pretty decent low-end workstation with a fairly good (non-X11) windowing system. Biggest problem was how slow it was at floating point, probably due to a crappy math library. I don't even think there was an option for a 68881. Since it was designed by convergent, the machine itself it a lot like the Convergent Miniframe (possibly even software compatible). The unix itself was pretty good with virtual memory and memory mapped files, but the max per-process address space was a 2MB which was also the max-RAM supported, IIRC. Eric On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 1:57 PM, Mark Tapley wrote: > At 12:04 -0500 6/19/08, Michael Lee wrote: > >> Anyone collect and/or need parts to the AT&T Unix PC? I've got a pile >> of systems I dismantled over a decade ago, and don't really want or know >> how to put back together. >> > > All, > I have a working one, and a fair amount of documentation. I have not > spent enough time with it to be considered any kind of "expert" but I may be > able to answer some questions. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable can pipe > up here. The systems seem pretty cool, although they are kind of rudimentary > as unix workstations. > > Michael, > where are you? I.e. where would shipping be from? > -- > - Mark 210-379-4635 > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > Large Asteroids headed toward planets > inhabited by beings that don't have > technology adequate to stop them: > > Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. > From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jun 19 17:45:02 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 15:45:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Corestore - the Big Move In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <58980.64.62.206.10.1213915502.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Tony wrote: > And FWIW, I am much more > likely to want to see the computer than the person In other words, the photographer would have better engaged your prurient interest if the person had obscured interesting parts of the computer, rather than vice versa. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Jun 19 17:50:01 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 15:50:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AT&T 3B1 Unix PC In-Reply-To: References: <200806191704.m5JH4Vvf057146@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <57203.64.62.206.10.1213915801.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Eric wrote about the AT&T Unix PC (7300): > Biggest problem was how slow it was at floating > point, probably due to a crappy math library. Was it significantly slower than other contemporary 68K machines that used software floating point? > I don't even think there was an option for a 68881. It would have been quite surprising if there had been one, since the MC68881 wasn't announced until well after the 7300 was introduced. Eric From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jun 19 18:42:45 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 16:42:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Corestore - the Big Move In-Reply-To: from Tony Duell at "Jun 19, 8 04:37:48 am" Message-ID: <200806192342.m5JNgjqh028348@floodgap.com> > I've seen plenty of pictures of nude people with props carefully > positioned to obscure the, shall I say, 'naughty bits'. 'Twernt the naughty bits. 'Twere the hot hot mainframe action. It's just not something appealing to ponder. :-P -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Software sucks because users demand it to. -- Nathan Mhyrvold, Microsoft --- From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Jun 19 19:37:05 2008 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 17:37:05 -0700 Subject: AT&T 3B1 Unix PC In-Reply-To: <57203.64.62.206.10.1213915801.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <200806191704.m5JH4Vvf057146@dewey.classiccmp.org> <57203.64.62.206.10.1213915801.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 3:50 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Eric wrote about the AT&T Unix PC (7300): > > Biggest problem was how slow it was at floating > > point, probably due to a crappy math library. > > Was it significantly slower than other contemporary 68K machines > that used software floating point? > What I had to compare it to at the time was a Sun 100u and a Tandy 16. It was comparable to the tandy 16 and significantly slower than the Sun 100u, especially at transendentals. It was also significantly slower than a 7.16 MHz V30 (also with software floating point). Of couse the PC world was a far more competitive place for C compilers with everyone saying theirs was the fastest. I've often wondered if the AT&T and Tandy compilers used floating point routines provided by Motorola rather than developing their own. Eric From tiggerlasv at aim.com Thu Jun 19 20:01:05 2008 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 21:01:05 -0400 Subject: Corestore - the Big Move Message-ID: <8CAA0884027791B-DAC-2BFF@webmail-nc14.sysops.aol.com> >> And FWIW, I am much more >> likely to want to see the computer than the person > > In other words, the photographer would have better engaged your > prurient interest if the person had obscured interesting parts of > the computer, rather than vice versa. Obscuring parts of the computer? With large feather-fans? Grape leaves? How avante-garde. How risque. Yet curiously titillating. Hehe. T From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Jun 19 21:41:57 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 21:41:57 -0500 Subject: Earl(y|iest) recording of computer music In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <485B18F5.1000608@oldskool.org> Sellam Ismail wrote: > This is very cool: > > http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7458479.stm Unfortunately, no mention of how the machine produced the sound... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From brain at jbrain.com Thu Jun 19 22:00:50 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 22:00:50 -0500 Subject: UIUC (Was: Re: Gopher for Firefox 3) In-Reply-To: <51ea77730806182240t4a01aa9es99aac52efc9ecea@mail.gmail.com> References: <200806190330.m5J3UI73014096@floodgap.com> <51ea77730806182240t4a01aa9es99aac52efc9ecea@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <485B1D62.5000803@jbrain.com> Jason T wrote: > Installed the plugin, haven't had a chance to test it thoroughly but > it seems to work fine. Very cool project, though! My first contact > with the Internet was in 1991 at UIUC (jht56010 at uxa.cso.uiuc.edu!) and > while I was probably using IRC, FTP and telnet more frequently, I do > remember gopher and definitely ph! Wish I still had a copy of my ph > record... (Person-Name!) > UIUC used to use gopher to schedule interviews and describe the companies coming on campus. *Everyone* in their senior year knew their way around gopher. jlb31348 at uxa.cso.uiuc.edu here. > Ahh, fond memories of the dorm labs with the PS/2s and Mac SE/30s > (some of which ran the networked multiplayer Sceptre game) and the > lovely rows of even then very outdated terminals in the basement of > the English building. Wish I knew what kind they were (tho I believe > uxa.cso was a Sequent mini. Anyone on the list there back then?) > It was a Sequent. The machine ran in the basement of the Illini Union, where there were some nice Xterminals to use. The Sequent was a slow machine (due to all the student accounts being used on it), so those of us with connections got accounts on the Sparcs in the CS labs (jbrain at cs.uiuc.edu) as they were much faster. Also, concerning trivia, the UIUC shared machines were managed by two separate entities. The dorm labs were managed by some small group in the housing area, while the rest of the lab machines (not specific class labs, but general use labs) were manage by CSO, which became CCSO in 1991 or so. (I don't know the expansion). I knew friends that adminstrered labs at CCSO. I took a job administering the dorm lab at Allen Hall, and was backup for the Lincoln Area Residence Hall lab. The dorm labs had come up on 3COM servers running some mutant of DOS that allowed more memory, but they moved to OS/2 1.3 for the servers in 1991, right before I took over the lab (much easier to fix print queues and such). They also started the process of upgrading the PS/2 Model 30s to no name 486s, as I recall, right before I left in 1993. The Mac SE/30s were the beginning of many stories. Concerning UIUC Plato machines: By the time, the Plato machines were on their way out, though Physics students still used them for labs, and they were also available at the University High School, just North East of campus. Most of the machines, though, were old and outdated. There was a neat Commodore 64 emulator for the PLATO system, and I think an IBM emulator. You could access all the systems via the magic terminal server number, 333-1100 or something. My fondest memory of the labs was the SE/30s. They had no hard drive, so they required a boot disk to startup. But, the SE ejects both disks on shutdown, as I recall, and some students would take both disks, or did not know the push the boot disk in when starting the machine up. Thus, all the MAC SEs had this metal "bra" on them. A sleeve that fit around the body of the unit around where the drives were, it had a stretched part of the metal that formed a bubble of the boot disk drive. It had a small piece of foam inside the bubble. Thus, when the disk was ejected, it hit the foam and then rebounded back into the drive. Still, be 1992, the foam was getting a bit weak, so the disks would not always rebound. In that case, the machine would not boot, displaying a question mark in a Mac icon on the screen. Thus, the bra solved one problem and created another, as students could not fix this issue, so they had to call a lab monitor, who had to call the admin (me). The solution was to unlock the bra, slide it up a bit (usually requiring force, which is why a hammer was standard issue in the supply cabinet), which would jar the disk and push it back into the drive. That took quite a bit of time, so I found out that if you just smacked the side of the SE/30 with an open palm, the resulting vibration would reseat the disk and all would be well. Thus, when I visited the lab, I took to "spanking" all of the errant SEs. The look on lab user's faces when I did that was/is priceless. Yes, it was no doubt hard on the machines, but were talking SE/30s here, many years past their prime. Jim From brain at jbrain.com Thu Jun 19 22:10:00 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 22:10:00 -0500 Subject: Apple I back up on ebay In-Reply-To: <40170.64.62.206.10.1213904183.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <8CA9EFF12B3353D-1604-2D53@webmail-nd04.sysops.aol.com> <38983.64.62.206.10.1213834622.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <4859BA28.5040807@jbrain.com> <40170.64.62.206.10.1213904183.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <485B1F88.2060402@jbrain.com> Eric Smith wrote: > Jim wrote: > >> We all know the sale price of this item. One sale does not a trend >> make. Why can't someone provide either a useful answer or some useful >> information? >> > > If only one has been sold in a public forum in recent times, what > "useful information" could there possibly be? > Information from less than public sales, information from initial sales of the unit, anything. Stating the obvious (If he'll buy it for that, that's the value to him) is a non-answer, in my opinion, and a waste of good electrons. I think it also lowers the signal/noise ratio. Of course, so does this post, but I felt the OP deserves a real answer, or at least an acknowledgement from the group that we have no idea. A later post notes: "I believe I paid $299 for the "basic parts kit" when I got mine off ebay from obtronix. A few afterwards went for about double that, and up to $1000 for a fully tested and assembled kit. Very well done, any ideas what happened to "obtronix" and why no more? " This is good information. > Are you asking us to speculate on what the price would be if there were > five units being sold this week instead of just one? > I'm not the original poster, but I'm sure he's looking for more than an obvious answer. He already knows the sale price. If I were him, I'd want to know: o Does this sound plausible, given your experience in other replica markets? o Have you spoken with some collectors recently that quoted a price they'd be willing to pay for a replica of this type? o Is there a general "rule-of-thumb" around replica pricing (If the real thing sells for X, the replica is worth X/100)? o Are you aware of private sales recently around this area that had prices associated? Jim From sethm at loomcom.com Thu Jun 19 22:33:07 2008 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 20:33:07 -0700 Subject: NEC D7220AD datasheet wanted Message-ID: Folks, Does anyone have a NEC 7220 datasheet? I was just given two of these chips (D7220AD, 1986 datecodes), and was interested in tinkering with them. I have no earthly idea what the specs are, though, other than "graphics controller". -Seth From rickb at bensene.com Thu Jun 19 23:07:02 2008 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 21:07:02 -0700 Subject: Earl(y|iest) recording of computer music In-Reply-To: <485B18F5.1000608@oldskool.org> References: <485B18F5.1000608@oldskool.org> Message-ID: > Unfortunately, no mention of how the machine produced the sound... I believe, but I'm not positive, that the a small amplifier with a speaker were placed on one of the bits of a given register in the machine, and the music program simply toggled the bit at various rates to create different notes. I know that this method was used on very many older computers, until it was later realized (on machines that had higher clock rates) that similar results could be generated simply by placing an AM radio near the computer, and running different loops of various functions to cause an AM carrier to be created and modulated to make the radio play music. If anyone out there for sure knows how this particular music was created on the Ferranti Mark I, it'd be great to find out. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Jun 19 23:15:24 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 23:15:24 -0500 Subject: Earl(y|iest) recording of computer music In-Reply-To: References: <485B18F5.1000608@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <51ea77730806192115rb4670c6rd2df32f238178495@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 11:07 PM, Rick Bensene wrote: > I believe, but I'm not positive, that the a small amplifier with a > speaker were placed on one of the bits of a given register in the > machine, and the music program simply toggled the bit at various rates > to create different notes. As seen on this (poor quality) video of the PDP-1 at the Computer History Museum! From giidii at gmail.com Thu Jun 19 05:56:43 2008 From: giidii at gmail.com (gii dii) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 12:56:43 +0200 Subject: RGB to VGA converter, your posting at classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2005-March/041987.html Message-ID: <485A3B6B.1030309@gmail.com> Hello, would your circuit work for RGsB to VGA, 1280x1024 resolution, to connect an old digital workstation to a TFT? thank you! best regards Gunter From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Jun 19 06:19:27 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 07:19:27 -0400 Subject: non-CP/M Z80 board Message-ID: <0K2P00BGGJG2NGTD@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: non-CP/M Z80 board > From: Dave McGuire > Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2008 23:13:54 -0400 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > >On Jun 18, 2008, at 11:48 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> They're all over the place. I have at least one tube of *brand >>> new* NMOS Z80 (not-A) chips here...cost me all of three bucks on eBay >>> in '06 or so. Need any? >> >> I think the chips under discussion were the 8085 specialty chips, >> 8155, 8355, 8755, etc. Got tubes of those? > > I've got a dozen or so 8755s, two or three 8155s, and no 8355s. >Not tube quantities, unfortunately. > > -Dave I do. Several tubes of 8755A, 8155A, 8156A and 8085A and some A-5s. Those parts are not that uncommon and they did have multiple vendors. Most of the Z80 (2.5 ->8MHZ) and peripherals are available from many vendors including JDRmicrodevices. Not all the peripherals were availble to 8mhz though (DMA was never made faster than 4mhz if memory serves). Allison >-- >Dave McGuire >Port Charlotte, FL > From steerex at ccvn.com Thu Jun 19 17:05:57 2008 From: steerex at ccvn.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 18:05:57 -0400 Subject: Low Cost EPROM programmer In-Reply-To: <8B63FC2C-3129-4E5B-AFD6-AFABD2657051@neurotica.com> References: <1213786943.2147.10.camel@bart> <8B63FC2C-3129-4E5B-AFD6-AFABD2657051@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <1213913157.2217.17.camel@bart> > > I bought a Willem Programmer a couple of years ago off Ebay and paid > > around $40 for it. I use it for 27Cxxx's but it will also do 24Cxx, > > 25Cxx, 93Cxx, and PICs. > > > > I love it! > > > > There seems to be a LOT of variants out there so, make sure the one > > you > > get will work with your specific chips. > > > > I wish there was a good LINUX based IDE for it. > > You mean programmer control software? Is programming information > available for it? > > -Dave Yeah. I guess IDE would be the wrong terminology. The Willem Programmer has a real nice Windows Interface. It even has graphics that show you the correct DIP switch and jumpers for the device that you select. That way you don't have to go back to the manual when you select a different ROM / EEPROM to program. And... It's fast. I've been working on a project using 27256's and the programmer will burn and verify one in less than 1 second! AFAIK, the entire project is open source / open architecture. The only LINUX resources I saw run under WINE (Windows emulator)... WTF! See ya, -- Steve Robertson steerex [at] ccvn [dot] com From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Jun 19 17:39:17 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 18:39:17 -0400 Subject: non-CP/M Z80 board Message-ID: <0K2Q00KC1EX2XJP1@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: non-CP/M Z80 board > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 04:42:01 +0100 (BST) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> > I think the chips under discussion were the 8085 specialty chips, >> > 8155, 8355, 8755, etc. Got tubes of those? >> >> I've got a dozen or so 8755s, two or three 8155s, and no 8355s. >> Not tube quantities, unfortunately. > >IIRC the 8355 was the mask-progeammed part, so it's not suprising you >don't have any of those, If you did, they proably wouldn't contain the >code you wanted :-). Yes, but it' still useful as an IO device with 16 IO port lines that could individually set for input or output. >The 8755 was the EPROM part, and at least one >version had a quartz windo for erasure (I don't know if there was an OTP >type). The 8155 was RAM. All had I/O as well. There was never an OTP, all were windowed Eprom devices. the 8155 and the '56 were the same device save for CS polarity. they are very useful with 256bytes ram, a programable timer/baud rate generator and 22 IO pins that can be set as output, input or strobned outpus and inputs. >There's also the 8156, which is the same as the 8155 (RAM + I/O) but with >an active-high chip select. Not as common as the 8155. Not as widely used but I have a bunch. >Of course you can use normal RAM and EPROM with the 8085 is you add and >address latch. An 74x373, or the 74x573 which as a saner pinout, is a >common choice. > There was also the 8185 wich was a 1Kx8 ram with muxed address/data. Those were uncommon as intel was the only supplier. The 8085A (or A-5), 8755, 8155 in three chips gave 256bytes ram, 2Kbytes Eprom, 38 configurable port lines, A timer/baudrate generator, 4 interrupt lines and the handy SID and SOD IO pins. Very handy for small applications. The base part ran at 3mhz (3.072mhz) and the faster A-5 was a 5mhz (there were 6mhz HmosII and CMOS parts later). Substitute a 8088 (or V20) and 8284A for the 8085 and you had a 16it cpu with all the Eprom, ram and IO listed. Allison >-tony From kenparker at usi.edu Thu Jun 19 18:40:37 2008 From: kenparker at usi.edu (Parker, Kenneth) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 18:40:37 -0500 Subject: IBM 5120 in austin, tx References: <485A94F6.1010307@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <5E1145C45625C2438C5A489CE16BDF7D0780935E@emailnew.usi.edu> thanks barry, i have the 5100. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org on behalf of Jim Battle Sent: Thu 6/19/2008 12:18 PM To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: IBM 5120 in austin, tx A few years back I bought an IBM 5120, then I spent more money collecting some manuals. Sadly, I've never had the time to do anything with it, and I don't foresee doing so. Here is a picture of one and some info, directly from IBM: http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/pc/pc_6.html Now, this thing weights a ton (>100 lbs), and I don't feel like packing it and shipping it. It is in Austin, TX. Although I have about $500 sunk into it, I realize that by not shipping it my market is dramatically reduced. Therefore, I'll sell it for $250 if you can come and get it. It boots into BASIC and runs fine. Because I don't have the terminator, and because the internal floppy disks hang off that bus, they floppies won't work until you acquire or build a terminator. The machine also comes with a technical and user manuals, although nothing that isn't already on bitsavers, I believe. There are also four 8" floppies, including a diagnostic disk. Cosmetically it is decent, used but not too yellowed, except for an unfortunate cracked off corner in the rear, which I still have. Despite that defect, it is still a functioning unit. !DSPAM:485a97a9310627316382964! From austin at ozpass.co.uk Fri Jun 20 02:16:32 2008 From: austin at ozpass.co.uk (Austin Pass) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 08:16:32 +0100 Subject: Earl(y|iest) recording of computer music In-Reply-To: References: <485B18F5.1000608@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On 20 Jun 2008, at 05:07, Rick Bensene wrote: > If anyone out there for sure knows how this particular music was > created > on the Ferranti Mark I, it'd be great to find out. My uncle Michael is the curator at the Manchester Museum of Science and Industry responsible for programming the replica baby. He wrote a nice little program that displays a sailing ship moving through "memory" (cathode ray tube, remember) from right to left. I'll ask him how the music was made and report back. -Austin. From steve at cosam.org Fri Jun 20 03:08:32 2008 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 10:08:32 +0200 Subject: Low Cost EPROM programmer In-Reply-To: <1213913157.2217.17.camel@bart> References: <1213786943.2147.10.camel@bart> <8B63FC2C-3129-4E5B-AFD6-AFABD2657051@neurotica.com> <1213913157.2217.17.camel@bart> Message-ID: <95838e090806200108y26856859ic87b382537dd09d5@mail.gmail.com> 2008/6/20 Steve Robertson : >> > I wish there was a good LINUX based IDE for it. >> >> You mean programmer control software? Is programming information >> available for it? >> >> -Dave > > Yeah. I guess IDE would be the wrong terminology. > > The Willem Programmer has a real nice Windows Interface. I have one of those, too (well, the Chinese version of it anyway). Works a treat and set me back all of $15, IIRC! I also use a lot of Linux-based compilers, assemblers and other such tools. I then use VMWare on the same machine to run Windows and the programming software. If you share your images with Samba you can read them straight in on the Windows VM. Nothing like a proper Linux version of the software, I know (hey, you could always write one!) but it does provide a handy way to develop, test and debug using Linux tools without needing a Windoze box just to run the programmer. -- Steve Maddison http://www.cosam.org/ From mike at brickfieldspark.org Fri Jun 20 03:33:22 2008 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 09:33:22 +0100 Subject: [personal] Re: Earl(y|iest) recording of computer music References: <485B18F5.1000608@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <002501c8d2b0$4d6aefb0$961ca8c0@mss.local> A speaker and amp of a reagister. The Elliott 803b had a speaker on the control panel (at least ours did), specifically there so you could "listen" to the machine and "see" what it was doing, odd noises meant problems. It did not take long for some bright spark to program a few tunes. It could be turned off. Once newer machines were installed the Elliott was reduced to playing tunes on visitor days, bit of a come down ! Mike Web - www.soemtron.org Email - mike at soemtron.org Looking for a PDP-7 (some hope!) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Leonard" To: ; "Discussion at mail.mobygames.com:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, June 20, 2008 3:41 AM Subject: [personal] Re: Earl(y|iest) recording of computer music > Sellam Ismail wrote: >> This is very cool: >> >> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7458479.stm > > Unfortunately, no mention of how the machine produced the sound... > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ > Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ > A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ > > From emu at e-bbes.com Fri Jun 20 04:58:07 2008 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 03:58:07 -0600 Subject: NEC D7220AD datasheet wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <485B7F2F.6010207@e-bbes.com> Seth Morabito wrote: > Folks, > > Does anyone have a NEC 7220 datasheet? I was just given two of these > chips (D7220AD, 1986 datecodes), and was interested in tinkering with > them. I have no earthly idea what the specs are, though, other than > "graphics controller". It should be somewhere on the net. For programming info, google for the programming manuals of the Rainbow Graphics Option (AA-AE36A-TV). It is pretty detailed ... Cheers From asholz at topinform.de Fri Jun 20 06:06:08 2008 From: asholz at topinform.de (Andreas Holz) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 13:06:08 +0200 Subject: DEC H7441 Powersupply Message-ID: <485B8F20.7070901@topinform.de> Hello all, was there a similar manual for for the H7441 PSU available as for the H720 PSU (which can be found on bitsavers pdf/dec/pdp11/pwrSupply/H720_PowerSupplyMan.pdf )? If yey could someone provide a scan? --Andreas From steve at radiorobots.com Fri Jun 20 08:32:24 2008 From: steve at radiorobots.com (Steve Stutman) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 09:32:24 -0400 Subject: NEC D7220AD datasheet wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <485BB168.6010408@radiorobots.com> Seth Morabito wrote: > Folks, > > Does anyone have a NEC 7220 datasheet? I was just given two of these > chips (D7220AD, 1986 datecodes), and was interested in tinkering with > them. I have no earthly idea what the specs are, though, other than > "graphics controller". > > -Seth > Used these once in a Nav product. If you do not find data on Net, let me know. Believe I still have the book. Steve From maurice.smulders at gmail.com Fri Jun 20 09:14:06 2008 From: maurice.smulders at gmail.com (maurice smulders) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 08:14:06 -0600 Subject: NEC D7220AD datasheet wanted In-Reply-To: <485B7F2F.6010207@e-bbes.com> References: <485B7F2F.6010207@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <7d9403580806200714g70ccca0dx235ab1c2e41e72d2@mail.gmail.com> Make sure you google for uPD7220 (that's the NEC prefix) Maurice On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 3:58 AM, e.stiebler wrote: > Seth Morabito wrote: > >> Folks, >> >> Does anyone have a NEC 7220 datasheet? I was just given two of these >> chips (D7220AD, 1986 datecodes), and was interested in tinkering with >> them. I have no earthly idea what the specs are, though, other than >> "graphics controller". >> > > It should be somewhere on the net. For programming info, google for the > programming manuals of the Rainbow Graphics Option (AA-AE36A-TV). > It is pretty detailed ... > > Cheers > From sethm at loomcom.com Fri Jun 20 12:26:59 2008 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 10:26:59 -0700 Subject: NEC D7220AD datasheet wanted In-Reply-To: <7d9403580806200714g70ccca0dx235ab1c2e41e72d2@mail.gmail.com> References: <485B7F2F.6010207@e-bbes.com> <7d9403580806200714g70ccca0dx235ab1c2e41e72d2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 7:14 AM, maurice smulders wrote: > Make sure you google for uPD7220 (that's the NEC prefix) > > Maurice > That was my mistake -- I kept searching for NEC 7220 and NEC D7220, without the 'uC'. Couldn't find anything. I have a copy of it now, thanks! -Seth From sethm at loomcom.com Fri Jun 20 12:26:59 2008 From: sethm at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 10:26:59 -0700 Subject: NEC D7220AD datasheet wanted In-Reply-To: <7d9403580806200714g70ccca0dx235ab1c2e41e72d2@mail.gmail.com> References: <485B7F2F.6010207@e-bbes.com> <7d9403580806200714g70ccca0dx235ab1c2e41e72d2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 7:14 AM, maurice smulders wrote: > Make sure you google for uPD7220 (that's the NEC prefix) > > Maurice > That was my mistake -- I kept searching for NEC 7220 and NEC D7220, without the 'uC'. Couldn't find anything. I have a copy of it now, thanks! -Seth From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Fri Jun 20 12:28:44 2008 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 18:28:44 +0100 Subject: Earl(y|iest) recording of computer music In-Reply-To: <200806200303.m5K33CsK065329@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200806200303.m5K33CsK065329@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <876680CF-491A-4B04-9B5F-CC1EF46873CF@microspot.co.uk> > Message: 28 > Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 21:41:57 -0500 > From: Jim Leonard > Sellam Ismail wrote: >> This is very cool: >> >> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/7458479.stm > > Unfortunately, no mention of how the machine produced the sound... I expect it was the same as slightly later mainframes, every time a conditional jump instruction actually jumps, it flips the speaker to the opposite state. When single shotting a program this is useful as you can hear a click and know to not carry on down the list of instructions, and when a program is running you can hear the tone change as it does different tasks (because the size of the loops are different). My 1301 has a three of four instruction program which uses the variable delay of the multiply instruction to make a ghostly sound. From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Fri Jun 20 12:29:56 2008 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 10:29:56 -0700 Subject: RGB to VGA converter, your posting at classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2005-March/041987.html In-Reply-To: <485A3B6B.1030309@gmail.com> References: <485A3B6B.1030309@gmail.com> Message-ID: I have used it to convert "sync on green" RGB at NTSC rates to a separate sync for input to a scan doubler (such as the "CGA to VGA" board previously discussed. Although I don't have the circuit in front of me, I think it was as simple as using G as the "composite" input to the LM1881.) On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 3:56 AM, gii dii wrote: > Hello, > > would your circuit work for RGsB to VGA, 1280x1024 resolution, > to connect an old digital workstation to a TFT? > > thank you! > > best regards > Gunter > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 20 12:33:30 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 10:33:30 -0700 Subject: NEC D7220AD datasheet wanted In-Reply-To: <200806201700.m5KH0EVd074437@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200806201700.m5KH0EVd074437@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <485B877A.11373.5830209@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 08:14:06 -0600 > From: "maurice smulders" > Make sure you google for uPD7220 (that's the NEC prefix) You can also look for the Intel 82720, which is the Intel-packaged version of the same chip. Both are on the web and the text for the datasheets and programming manual is essentially identical. Cheers, Chuck From fjkraan at xs4all.nl Fri Jun 20 12:45:32 2008 From: fjkraan at xs4all.nl (F.J. Kraan) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 19:45:32 +0200 Subject: NEC D7220AD datasheet wanted In-Reply-To: <200806201701.m5KH160Q074486@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200806201701.m5KH160Q074486@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <485BECBC.1080200@xs4all.nl> cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Folks, > > Does anyone have a NEC 7220 datasheet? I was just given two of these > chips (D7220AD, 1986 datecodes), and was interested in tinkering with > them. I have no earthly idea what the specs are, though, other than > "graphics controller". > http://electrickery.xs4all.nl/comp/qx10/doc/nec7220.pdf or http://oldcomputers.dyndns.org/public/pub/rechner/epson/~fjkraan/comp/qx10/doc/nec7220.pdf > -Seth > > Fred Jan From dm561 at torfree.net Fri Jun 20 12:54:12 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 13:54:12 -0400 Subject: NEC D7220AD datasheet wanted Message-ID: <01C8D2DD.30113AA0@host-208-72-122-194.dyn.295.ca> ---------ORIGINAL MESSAGE: Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 09:32:24 -0400 From: Steve Stutman Subject: Re: NEC D7220AD datasheet wanted Seth Morabito wrote: > Folks, > > Does anyone have a NEC 7220 datasheet? I was just given two of these > chips (D7220AD, 1986 datecodes), and was interested in tinkering with > them. I have no earthly idea what the specs are, though, other than > "graphics controller". > > -Seth > Used these once in a Nav product. If you do not find data on Net, let me know. Believe I still have the book. Steve -------------REPLY: I also have it in Vol.2 of the 1987 NEC Microcomputer Products Data Book. It's 28 pages; unforch I don't have a scanner set up at the moment, but if there's no other source... mike From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Fri Jun 20 12:56:28 2008 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 10:56:28 -0700 Subject: RGB to VGA converter, your posting at classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2005-March/041987.html In-Reply-To: References: <485A3B6B.1030309@gmail.com> Message-ID: The sync separator portion of the board is at http://setiathome.berkeley.edu/~korpela/sync_separator.png, and it's unforunately the only portion I have on this machine. Sorry for the large size. So I think the drill is connect R directly to H/C, although its possible the some initial conditioning (an inverter or comparator) was required. It's been a while since I thought a lot about that board. If I were to do it today I might switch to an LMH1980, which supports more input formats. ePanorama.net is a good source for a lot of video circuits. Eric On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 10:29 AM, Eric J Korpela wrote: > > I have used it to convert "sync on green" RGB at NTSC rates to a separate > sync for input to a scan doubler (such as the "CGA to VGA" board previously > discussed. Although I don't have the circuit in front of me, I think it was > as simple as using G as the "composite" input to the LM1881.) > > > > > On Thu, Jun 19, 2008 at 3:56 AM, gii dii wrote: > >> Hello, >> >> would your circuit work for RGsB to VGA, 1280x1024 resolution, >> to connect an old digital workstation to a TFT? >> >> thank you! >> >> best regards >> Gunter >> > > From coredump at gifford.co.uk Fri Jun 20 13:04:22 2008 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 19:04:22 +0100 Subject: NEC D7220AD datasheet wanted In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <485BF126.5020404@gifford.co.uk> Seth Morabito wrote: > Does anyone have a NEC 7220 datasheet? I was just given two of these > chips (D7220AD, 1986 datecodes), and was interested in tinkering with > them. I have no earthly idea what the specs are, though, other than > "graphics controller". I have a thick databook on this chip. It goes into all the detailed programming of all the capabilities of the graphics controller. Basically, the chip generates a raster video image from some RAM and also implements graphics drawing primitives in hardware. -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jun 20 14:03:49 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 12:03:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple I back up on ebay In-Reply-To: <485B1F88.2060402@jbrain.com> References: <8CA9EFF12B3353D-1604-2D53@webmail-nd04.sysops.aol.com> <38983.64.62.206.10.1213834622.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <4859BA28.5040807@jbrain.com> <40170.64.62.206.10.1213904183.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <485B1F88.2060402@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <42626.64.62.206.10.1213988629.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> > "I believe I paid $299 for the "basic parts kit" when I got mine off > ebay from obtronix. A few afterwards went for about double that, and up > to $1000 for a fully tested and assembled kit. Very well done, any > ideas what happened to "obtronix" and why no more? " > > This is good information. Actually it's not, at least in regard to the original question, which is what the clone is worth today. What they sold for when they were available new has essentially no bearing on that question, since they haven't been available new for some time. From brain at jbrain.com Fri Jun 20 14:57:07 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 14:57:07 -0500 Subject: Apple I back up on ebay In-Reply-To: <42626.64.62.206.10.1213988629.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <8CA9EFF12B3353D-1604-2D53@webmail-nd04.sysops.aol.com> <38983.64.62.206.10.1213834622.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <4859BA28.5040807@jbrain.com> <40170.64.62.206.10.1213904183.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <485B1F88.2060402@jbrain.com> <42626.64.62.206.10.1213988629.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <485C0B93.8010507@jbrain.com> Eric Smith wrote: > Actually it's not, at least in regard to the original question, which > is what the clone is worth today. What they sold for when they were > available new has essentially no bearing on that question, since they > haven't been available new for some time. > > We'll agree to disagree then. I feel it gives the OP a good baseline and order of magnitude number to work with. I find replica values track much more closely to original pricing. From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Jun 20 15:07:26 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 13:07:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple I back up on ebay In-Reply-To: <42626.64.62.206.10.1213988629.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <8CA9EFF12B3353D-1604-2D53@webmail-nd04.sysops.aol.com> <38983.64.62.206.10.1213834622.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <4859BA28.5040807@jbrain.com> <40170.64.62.206.10.1213904183.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <485B1F88.2060402@jbrain.com> <42626.64.62.206.10.1213988629.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: >> "I believe I paid $299 for the "basic parts kit" when I got mine off >> ebay from obtronix. A few afterwards went for about double that, and up >> to $1000 for a fully tested and assembled kit. Very well done, any >> ideas what happened to "obtronix" and why no more? " >> >> This is good information. > > Actually it's not, at least in regard to the original question, which > is what the clone is worth today. What they sold for when they were > available new has essentially no bearing on that question, since they > haven't been available new for some time. Not a "clone", but pretty damn neat regardless: http://www.brielcomputers.com/replica1.html g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From evan at snarc.net Fri Jun 20 15:21:00 2008 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 16:21:00 -0400 Subject: Apple I back up on ebay Message-ID: <200806202021.m5KKLCJd056407@keith.ezwind.net> >>>http://www.brielcomputers.com/replica1.html That's been around for a few years. Catch up on your list messages from 2005. :) From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Jun 20 15:54:10 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 13:54:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Apple I back up on ebay In-Reply-To: <200806202021.m5KKLCJd056407@keith.ezwind.net> References: <200806202021.m5KKLCJd056407@keith.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Jun 2008, Evan wrote: >>>> http://www.brielcomputers.com/replica1.html > > That's been around for a few years. Catch up on your list messages from 2005. :) > Der. There's a trout over here with your name on it Evan. >:) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From schwepes at moog.netaxs.com Fri Jun 20 16:37:01 2008 From: schwepes at moog.netaxs.com (schwepes at moog.netaxs.com) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 17:37:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Westinghouse W1642 terminal... any info? In-Reply-To: <51984.64.62.206.10.1213744607.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <547924.62338.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <51984.64.62.206.10.1213744607.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: Point taken and I'm sorry for passing on erronious information as I had received it too many years ago. But the statement i made could still be valid for the question. bs On Tue, 17 Jun 2008, Eric Smith wrote: > > Could this thing be doing a modification of the old teletype codes? > > Sone if the really easier machines used modifications on the Baudaut set. > > Actually as far as I've seen, no Teletype machines actually used Baudot > code or variants thereof. They all use variants of Marray code, similar > to ITA2. > > The only substantive similarities between Baudot code and Murray code > are that both are five-level codes and both use letters and figures > shifts. > > Tom Jennings has published the results of his thorough research into > these early character codes: > > http://www.wps.com/projects/codes/ > > From schwepes at moog.netaxs.com Fri Jun 20 17:25:22 2008 From: schwepes at moog.netaxs.com (schwepes at moog.netaxs.com) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 18:25:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: sell/donate: Wang Professional Computer in Columbus Ohio In-Reply-To: <457252.26985.qm@web51602.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <457252.26985.qm@web51602.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Actually, I'm not interested in the machine. I have one. I am interested in copies of the software, particularily the boot disk and the manual. I just want to know of the lump of metal beside my work table works. I'd also be interested in what you ultimately get for it. bs in Philadelphia On Wed, 18 Jun 2008, steven stengel wrote: > ------------------------------------------------------------ > This is not my system, please email Martha if interested. > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Martha Shaw > Subject: RE: selling a Wang Wordprocessor > Date: Wednesday, June 18, 2008, 3:45 PM > > I have a Wang word processor from the 1980's. I would > like to sell it or donate it (take a deduction) if I can. > > It's called the Wang Professional Computer in it's > manual which is copyrighted 1985. This one was > used for training when the person who owned it worked at > home and trained others when she worked for Wang. It works > and has a printer, as well as 10 printer wheels and 11 > ribbons. > Martha Shaw > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > This is not my system, please email Martha if interested. > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 20 17:41:57 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 18:41:57 -0400 Subject: DEC H7441 Powersupply In-Reply-To: <485B8F20.7070901@topinform.de> References: <485B8F20.7070901@topinform.de> Message-ID: <6DCF10AC-5256-4320-99DA-7E6B89AAA45D@neurotica.com> On Jun 20, 2008, at 7:06 AM, Andreas Holz wrote: > was there a similar manual for for the H7441 PSU available as for > the H720 PSU (which can be found on bitsavers pdf/dec/pdp11/ > pwrSupply/H720_PowerSupplyMan.pdf )? > > If yey could someone provide a scan? The H7441 schematics can be found starting on page 432 of the 11/04 engineering drawings on bitsavers. http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1104/ MP00019_1104_EngrDrws_Feb78.pdf -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Jun 20 17:42:59 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 18:42:59 -0400 Subject: photo of IBM lab? In-Reply-To: <20080620151935.GA3935@eesfc24.engr.ccny.cuny.edu> References: <20080620151935.GA3935@eesfc24.engr.ccny.cuny.edu> Message-ID: <481C9FAC-2C2E-4102-B765-DB3C44E269C9@neurotica.com> On Jun 20, 2008, at 11:19 AM, Kurt Rosenfeld wrote: > Hello. I ran across this photo: http://w140.com/kurt/ibmlab2.jpg > Do you think it is an IBM lab? What are they working on? I have no clue of what they were working on, but crap that's a lot of tubes! Simpson 260s, Tek 531s...top of the line test gear! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jun 20 17:55:51 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 15:55:51 -0700 Subject: photo of IBM lab? Message-ID: <485C3577.9020404@bitsavers.org> > What are they working on? IBM 705 From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri Jun 20 21:14:07 2008 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 22:14:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: IBM Switch assembly In-Reply-To: <485C3577.9020404@bitsavers.org> References: <485C3577.9020404@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Can anyone here identify the equipment that used this switch assembly? http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/switch-assy.jpg It looks very similar to those used on the IBM 700 series, but I haven't been able to positively match it. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Jun 20 22:06:45 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 20:06:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM Switch assembly In-Reply-To: References: <485C3577.9020404@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <33271.64.62.206.10.1214017605.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> > Can anyone here identify the equipment that used this switch assembly? > http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/switch-assy.jpg Possibly a SAGE. From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Jun 20 23:04:47 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 21:04:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM Switch assembly In-Reply-To: <33271.64.62.206.10.1214017605.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <485C3577.9020404@bitsavers.org> <33271.64.62.206.10.1214017605.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: >> Can anyone here identify the equipment that used this switch assembly? >> http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/switch-assy.jpg > > Possibly a SAGE. > Oh now you're just teasing him. ;) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From ragooman at comcast.net Fri Jun 20 23:55:58 2008 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 00:55:58 -0400 Subject: Looking for AMD9511 datasheet Message-ID: <485C89DE.9000102@comcast.net> Would someone have a datasheet for the AMD9511 ? This is a FPU coprocessor from '79 =Dan -- [ "go get 'em" ] [ Pittsburgh --- http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Jun 21 00:12:54 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 22:12:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for AMD9511 datasheet In-Reply-To: <485C89DE.9000102@comcast.net> References: <485C89DE.9000102@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jun 2008, Dan Roganti wrote: > Would someone have a datasheet for the AMD9511 ? > This is a FPU coprocessor from '79 It took a while, but here it is: http://datasheets.chipdb.org/AMD/9511/amd-9511.pdf -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From info at vintagetechnology.co.uk Sat Jun 21 00:20:26 2008 From: info at vintagetechnology.co.uk (Vintage Technology Magazine) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 06:20:26 +0100 Subject: request to post a message Message-ID: <003701c8d35e$838f43d0$0e02a8c0@abi2> Hi, Could I please post the following message to cctalk? thanks. It's as follows: Title: July '08 Vintage Technology magazine is available Main text: July '08 edition of Vintage Technology magazine is now out and can be obtained from www.vintagetechnology.co.uk . Only ?0.99p / $1.99 for a 40+ page magazine devoted to the collection, preservation and history of all aspects of digital and electronics technology, including computers, arcade games, calculators, led watches, phones, appliances, gadgets and robots. This issue features: The first pocket computers Historic hypertext and how the WWW could have started much earlier The development of car driving games Vintage personal data-calculators Entex handheld games Cordless phones Flip clocks Merits of using traditional auction houses vs. eBay Commodore PET repairs Daisy wheel printers ZX Spectrum memories Plus sections on museums & collections, latest events & news and book reviews. VTM aims to explore the legacy of recent past technology, explore new 'electronica' which could become or already is collectible, be an enjoyable resource for collectors & historians and celebrate the history and personalities surrounding this subject. From ragooman at comcast.net Sat Jun 21 00:22:49 2008 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 01:22:49 -0400 Subject: Looking for AMD9511 datasheet In-Reply-To: References: <485C89DE.9000102@comcast.net> Message-ID: <485C9029.1070401@comcast.net> David Griffith wrote: > It took a while, but here it is: > http://datasheets.chipdb.org/AMD/9511/amd-9511.pdf > > Yes, I found this too. But it doesn't have any info about programming this chip. I'm wondering if there was a separate Reference manual for this. =Dan [ "go get 'em" ] [ Pittsburgh --- http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Jun 21 00:38:16 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 22:38:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM Switch assembly In-Reply-To: References: <485C3577.9020404@bitsavers.org> <33271.64.62.206.10.1214017605.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <52003.71.139.37.220.1214026696.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> >>> Can anyone here identify the equipment that used this switch >>> assembly? >>> http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/switch-assy.jpg >> Possibly a SAGE. > Oh now you're just teasing him. ;) No, IBM definitely used that style of switches on SAGE. From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Jun 21 00:40:30 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 22:40:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for AMD9511 datasheet In-Reply-To: <485C9029.1070401@comcast.net> References: <485C89DE.9000102@comcast.net> <485C9029.1070401@comcast.net> Message-ID: <52014.71.139.37.220.1214026830.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> > I'm wondering if there was a separate Reference manual for this. You need the datasheet on the commercial part. The datasheet on the military grade part only has the specs that differ. From ragooman at comcast.net Sat Jun 21 01:14:52 2008 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 02:14:52 -0400 Subject: Looking for AMD9511 datasheet In-Reply-To: <52014.71.139.37.220.1214026830.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <485C89DE.9000102@comcast.net> <485C9029.1070401@comcast.net> <52014.71.139.37.220.1214026830.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <485C9C5C.9000304@comcast.net> Eric Smith wrote: >> I'm wondering if there was a separate Reference manual for this. >> > > You need the datasheet on the commercial part. The datasheet on the > military grade part only has the specs that differ. > > After some further googling on the cctalk archives I noticed these two databooks/manuals would contain some form of a programmers reference manual for this chip. -->AMD Microprocessors and Peripherals data book 1985 -->Floating Point Program Manual Am9511A/Am9512 I hope somebody would still have these. =Dan From ragooman at comcast.net Sat Jun 21 02:24:08 2008 From: ragooman at comcast.net (Dan Roganti) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 03:24:08 -0400 Subject: Looking for AMD Microprocessors and Peripherals data book(early 80's) Message-ID: <485CAC98.2090405@comcast.net> Would anyone have this databook ? Looking for AMD Microprocessors and Peripherals data book(early 80's) This would contain the programmers reference for the AMD9511 fpu chip. I'm working with this chip and like to get a copy for this. thanks, Dan -- [ Pittsburgh --- http://www2.applegate.org/~ragooman/ ] From oldcomputers at oldcomputers.net Thu Jun 19 23:30:32 2008 From: oldcomputers at oldcomputers.net (Sysop) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2008 21:30:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Free Compaq Portable II (?) from 1986 In Phoenix, AZ Message-ID: <642421.5338.qm@web51607.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Contact "dan goforth" if interested: godanphx at aol.com From hardware at ees1s0.engr.ccny.cuny.edu Fri Jun 20 10:19:35 2008 From: hardware at ees1s0.engr.ccny.cuny.edu (Kurt Rosenfeld) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 11:19:35 -0400 Subject: photo of IBM lab? Message-ID: <20080620151935.GA3935@eesfc24.engr.ccny.cuny.edu> Hello. I ran across this photo: http://w140.com/kurt/ibmlab2.jpg Do you think it is an IBM lab? What are they working on? thanks, -kurt From john.haigh at zoo.co.uk Fri Jun 20 16:12:04 2008 From: john.haigh at zoo.co.uk (John & Rachel) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 22:12:04 +0100 Subject: Listing paper FTGH (Yorks, UK) Message-ID: <000501c8d31a$4fa20dd0$4401a8c0@JOHN> Hi, Must be a common problem getting rid of spare paper. Did you get any takers as I have some too. Anyone who was disapointed? Thanks, John From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Jun 20 17:34:06 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 18:34:06 -0400 Subject: NEC D7220AD datasheet wanted Message-ID: <0K2S00A8I9CC9ZW5@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: NEC D7220AD datasheet wanted > From: "Seth Morabito" > Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 10:26:59 -0700 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Cc: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > >On Fri, Jun 20, 2008 at 7:14 AM, maurice smulders > wrote: >> Make sure you google for uPD7220 (that's the NEC prefix) >> >> Maurice >> > >That was my mistake -- I kept searching for NEC 7220 and NEC D7220, >without the 'uC'. Couldn't find anything. Yes it would muck up the works. The part was uPD7220. I have a few and likely apnotes and all as well. Allison >I have a copy of it now, thanks! > >-Seth From jws at jwsss.com Fri Jun 20 22:45:45 2008 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 20:45:45 -0700 Subject: IBM Switch assembly In-Reply-To: References: <485C3577.9020404@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <485C7969.60506@jwsss.com> not impossible it's off a 1620. have you searched photos of it? i know it had thermal issues. I would not be surprised the 700 ibm series would have thermal issues, but on indicator on a panel like this would be a bit shy of showing the true extent of a thermal issue with those system. However the 1620 was cranky about fans and some logic could overheat and halt the system, so the thermal light would fit. jim Mike Loewen wrote: > > Can anyone here identify the equipment that used this switch assembly? > > http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/switch-assy.jpg > > It looks very similar to those used on the IBM 700 series, but I > haven't been able to positively match it. > > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ > > From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Jun 21 04:34:10 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 02:34:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: NEC D7220AD datasheet wanted In-Reply-To: <0K2S00A8I9CC9ZW5@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0K2S00A8I9CC9ZW5@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <50099.71.139.37.220.1214040850.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> > Make sure you google for uPD7220 (that's the NEC prefix) Note that the Intel 7220 (usually D7220 or P7220) is completely incompatible, as it is a bubble memory controller for the Intel 1 Mbit bubble memory parts. Someone else already pointed out that the Intel's equivalent of the NEC uPD7220 was the Intel 82720. Eric From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sat Jun 21 08:30:25 2008 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 09:30:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: IBM Switch assembly In-Reply-To: <52003.71.139.37.220.1214026696.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <485C3577.9020404@bitsavers.org> <33271.64.62.206.10.1214017605.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <52003.71.139.37.220.1214026696.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Jun 2008, Eric Smith wrote: >>>> Can anyone here identify the equipment that used this switch >>>> assembly? >>>> http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/switch-assy.jpg >>> Possibly a SAGE. >> Oh now you're just teasing him. ;) > > No, IBM definitely used that style of switches on SAGE. Only the Power Off and DC Off switches type switches. I've never seen the other, concave switches on SAGE. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com Sat Jun 21 08:58:00 2008 From: kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com (Keven Miller (rtt)) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 07:58:00 -0600 Subject: 9-track BOT/EOT markers? In-Reply-To: <4854B8FC.5060400@msu.edu> References: <478067.35706.qm@web35306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4854B8FC.5060400@msu.edu> Message-ID: <485D08E8.7060504@reeltapetransfer.com> Josh Dersch wrote: > Excellent! Thank you (and Al!) for the information. > Now -- where can I find new BOT/EOT marker foil or a reasonable > facsimile? :) > I have one roll of "3M 650 sensing markers". " 1 inch long tabs, 250 per card" " For magnetic computer tape used on digital transports." from 3M Data Storage Products 3M 1988 34-7023-6197-2 I can't seem to find any on the web. But I would be willing to roll up a few feet of this stuff and send it. I think I've only used 2 myself. Keven Miller Orem Ut, 84097 From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Jun 21 09:10:07 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 07:10:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM Switch assembly In-Reply-To: <52003.71.139.37.220.1214026696.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <485C3577.9020404@bitsavers.org> <33271.64.62.206.10.1214017605.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <52003.71.139.37.220.1214026696.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Jun 2008, Eric Smith wrote: >>>> Can anyone here identify the equipment that used this switch >>>> assembly? >>>> http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/switch-assy.jpg >>> Possibly a SAGE. >> Oh now you're just teasing him. ;) > > No, IBM definitely used that style of switches on SAGE. > It was a joke, Eric. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sat Jun 21 09:11:49 2008 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 10:11:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: IBM Switch assembly In-Reply-To: <485C7969.60506@jwsss.com> References: <485C3577.9020404@bitsavers.org> <485C7969.60506@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Jun 2008, jim s wrote: > not impossible it's off a 1620. have you searched photos of it? > > i know it had thermal issues. I would not be surprised the 700 ibm series > would have thermal issues, but on indicator on a panel like this would be a > bit shy of showing the true extent of a thermal issue with those system. I have some closeup pictures of the 1620, and it's definitely not that. I've also looked at all the IBM manuals available on Bitsavers, for that period. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Sat Jun 21 09:22:07 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 10:22:07 -0400 Subject: Looking for AMD9511 datasheet In-Reply-To: <485C9C5C.9000304@comcast.net> References: <485C89DE.9000102@comcast.net> <485C9029.1070401@comcast.net> <52014.71.139.37.220.1214026830.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <485C9C5C.9000304@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Jun 21, 2008, at 2:14 AM, Dan Roganti wrote: > After some further googling on the cctalk archives > I noticed these two databooks/manuals would contain some form of a > programmers reference manual for this chip. > -->AMD Microprocessors and Peripherals data book 1985 > -->Floating Point Program Manual Am9511A/Am9512 > > I hope somebody would still have these. I have the latter of the two. I can send it to you for use and/or copying, but I would like it back (eventually). -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Jun 21 10:30:41 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 11:30:41 -0400 Subject: Corestore - the Big Move In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <485D1EA1.2090500@gmail.com> Tony Duell wrote: >> There's a married guy who kept a Nova 3 in his dining room for 20 years. >> Can we get some pictures of its now home? (you know who you are) > > I am still wondering how I managed to convince my parents to let me put a > PDP11/45 system (2 racks + RK07 drives) and a PERQ in the hall. And to > fill most of the other rooms of the house with old computers and related > bits... I'm still wondering how my parents let me run a water cooled mainframe in the house. I had to pour a concrete pad for the exterior heat exchanger and drill holes in the concrete shell of the basement for the plumbing. My parents were very encouraging about me learning about things, and I am very thankful for that. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Jun 21 10:55:19 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 11:55:19 -0400 Subject: photo of IBM lab? In-Reply-To: <20080620151935.GA3935@eesfc24.engr.ccny.cuny.edu> References: <20080620151935.GA3935@eesfc24.engr.ccny.cuny.edu> Message-ID: <485D2467.7040002@gmail.com> Kurt Rosenfeld wrote: > Hello. I ran across this photo: http://w140.com/kurt/ibmlab2.jpg > Do you think it is an IBM lab? What are they working on? They use(d) that kind of flooring in various buildings in Poughkeepsie and Endicott, but that's as far as I can tell you. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Jun 21 11:00:10 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 12:00:10 -0400 Subject: photo of IBM lab? In-Reply-To: <481C9FAC-2C2E-4102-B765-DB3C44E269C9@neurotica.com> References: <20080620151935.GA3935@eesfc24.engr.ccny.cuny.edu> <481C9FAC-2C2E-4102-B765-DB3C44E269C9@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <485D258A.7060308@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jun 20, 2008, at 11:19 AM, Kurt Rosenfeld wrote: >> Hello. I ran across this photo: http://w140.com/kurt/ibmlab2.jpg >> Do you think it is an IBM lab? What are they working on? > > I have no clue of what they were working on, but crap that's a lot of > tubes! > > Simpson 260s, Tek 531s...top of the line test gear! IBM knows what kinds of test equipment to buy. Even today. They don't skimp on tools. They are intimately familiar with what reduces engineer productivity. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Jun 21 11:00:10 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 12:00:10 -0400 Subject: photo of IBM lab? In-Reply-To: <481C9FAC-2C2E-4102-B765-DB3C44E269C9@neurotica.com> References: <20080620151935.GA3935@eesfc24.engr.ccny.cuny.edu> <481C9FAC-2C2E-4102-B765-DB3C44E269C9@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <485D258A.7060308@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Jun 20, 2008, at 11:19 AM, Kurt Rosenfeld wrote: >> Hello. I ran across this photo: http://w140.com/kurt/ibmlab2.jpg >> Do you think it is an IBM lab? What are they working on? > > I have no clue of what they were working on, but crap that's a lot of > tubes! > > Simpson 260s, Tek 531s...top of the line test gear! IBM knows what kinds of test equipment to buy. Even today. They don't skimp on tools. They are intimately familiar with what reduces engineer productivity. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jun 21 12:23:44 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 10:23:44 -0700 Subject: IBM Switch assembly In-Reply-To: <200806211700.m5LH0P0W099347@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200806211700.m5LH0P0W099347@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <485CD6B0.25653.5734D5@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 20:45:45 -0700 > From: jim s > not impossible it's off a 1620. have you searched photos of it? Not a 1620--the system used a much wider row of switches and indicators. Not a 1401 or 7090 match either, from my memory, but could be a 704 power switch assembly. Cheers, Chuck From silent700 at gmail.com Sat Jun 21 13:40:33 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 13:40:33 -0500 Subject: FFS: Tecmar books Message-ID: <51ea77730806211140s7f0f746u82de464fa450fffb@mail.gmail.com> >From a big lot of stuff I picked up recently, free for cost of shipping (or local pickup of course) from 60074 USA: - Tecmar Treasure Chest Technical Reference - Tecmar Treasure Chest Users Guide - Tecmar Catalog 104 (memory/tape/hard disk/gfx/video/comms) - Tecmar Companion Software User's Guide Would prefer they all went out at once! Thanks -j From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Jun 21 16:45:46 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 17:45:46 -0400 Subject: photo of IBM lab? In-Reply-To: <485D258A.7060308@gmail.com> References: <20080620151935.GA3935@eesfc24.engr.ccny.cuny.edu> <481C9FAC-2C2E-4102-B765-DB3C44E269C9@neurotica.com> <485D258A.7060308@gmail.com> Message-ID: >> Simpson 260s, Tek 531s...top of the line test gear! > > IBM knows what kinds of test equipment to buy. Even today. Not for nothin', but...try to think of an engineering firm in the 1950s that did not use Teks and Simpsons. Except HP. Cue the crickets. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Jun 21 16:54:08 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 17:54:08 -0400 Subject: IBM Switch assembly In-Reply-To: <485CD6B0.25653.5734D5@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200806211700.m5LH0P0W099347@dewey.classiccmp.org> <485CD6B0.25653.5734D5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > Not a 1620--the system used a much wider row of switches and > indicators. Not a 1401 or 7090 match either, from my memory, but > could be a 704 power switch assembly. It looks very familiar - perhaps off a 709 system power unit (7mumblefoo). I may have seen one on a Pierce machine last year. That 7mumblefoo power unit wins the prize of the one piece of computing hardware I would not want to have to retube. -- Will From ray at arachelian.com Sat Jun 21 18:09:30 2008 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 19:09:30 -0400 Subject: One tonne 'Baby' marks its birth Message-ID: <485D8A2A.30509@arachelian.com> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7465115.stm One tonne 'Baby' marks its birth By Jonathan Fildes Science and technology reporter, BBC News Baby project team The four remaining members of the Baby team will be honoured in Manchester Sixty years ago the "modern computer" was born in a lab in Manchester. The Small Scale Experimental Machine, or "Baby", was the first to contain memory which could store a program. The room-sized computer's ability to carry out different tasks - without having to be rebuilt - has led some to describe it as the "first modern PC". From ray at arachelian.com Sat Jun 21 20:11:37 2008 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 21:11:37 -0400 Subject: Ted - Historian George Dyson tells stories from the birth of the modern computer -- from its 16th-century origins to the hilarious notebooks of some early computer engineers. Message-ID: <485DA6C9.8030909@arachelian.com> http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/view/id/278 Historian George Dyson tells stories from the birth of the modern computer -- from its 16th-century origins to the hilarious notebooks of some early computer engineers. From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat Jun 21 11:56:26 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 12:56:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: photo of IBM lab? In-Reply-To: <485D258A.7060308@gmail.com> References: <20080620151935.GA3935@eesfc24.engr.ccny.cuny.edu> <481C9FAC-2C2E-4102-B765-DB3C44E269C9@neurotica.com> <485D258A.7060308@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jun 2008, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Dave McGuire wrote: >> On Jun 20, 2008, at 11:19 AM, Kurt Rosenfeld wrote: >>> Hello. I ran across this photo: http://w140.com/kurt/ibmlab2.jpg >>> Do you think it is an IBM lab? What are they working on? >> >> I have no clue of what they were working on, but crap that's a lot of >> tubes! >> >> Simpson 260s, Tek 531s...top of the line test gear! > > IBM knows what kinds of test equipment to buy. Even today. > > They don't skimp on tools. They are intimately familiar with what reduces > engineer productivity. Clearly you don't work in a software development group. -- From philip at axeside.co.uk Sat Jun 21 15:01:10 2008 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 21:01:10 +0100 Subject: big bucks for a Tek computer on eBay In-Reply-To: <48553A46.6070807@bitsavers.org> References: <48553A46.6070807@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <485D5E06.4040802@axeside.co.uk> Ah, yes. The Tek 4050 series - my favourite computers! I have a search on eBay that's supposed to notify me when anything like that is listed, but I haven't had much time to read e-mails recently, so I probably missed it. Al Kossow wrote: > > apparently 6800 based. O woe is me. 322$ + 90$ > > ~$400 isn't 'big bucks' Agreed. Years ago, a 4052 was thrown out at work. In those days they were enlightened enough to ask for bids from employees before they stuck it in the skip (dumpster), and I bid 100 pounds to be sure of getting it. I exhibited it and talked about it at the VCF in ?1998. I also have service manuals. Very useful, since the PSU has blown up twice since I got it. The service manuals (one called "Technical Data" and one called "Parts List and Schematics") cost over 100 pounds each, *not including* 3-ring binders (which aren't that easy to get in the UK!), but they were worth it. > The original 4051 used a 6800, > 4052s simulate a 6800 with 2901s > and are MUCH faster. Well, lets see. The 4052 microcode emulates a 6800 without any decimal arithmetic facility, but includes a couple of memory management instructions to give it 128K of address space. You set bit 16 separately for instruction ("fetch") space and data space. A nice feature is that changes to "fetch" space don't take effect until the next jump instruction. The microcode is clocked at 25MHz, giving an equivalent clock speed of 5MHz for the 6800 (which usually doesn't even make it to a megahertz iirc) A further increase in speed is provided by the 16 bit data path with separate address buses for the two bytes, allowing it to fetch a whole word at a time even if the address isn't on a word boundary. This knocks at least a cycle off most instructions. The 4054 is like the 4052 but with extra graphics features: a 19 inch screen, 4096*4096 addressable locations, some thumbwheels as a pointing device, dashed lines. It may even have had rotatable text. The 4052A (which was just sold on eBay) and 4054A are like the 4052 and 4054, but with a GPIB controller chip. This frees the CPU (and ROM) of some of the burden of GPIB handling, and the free ROM space is used to provide some limited dynamic graphics - things that can move around the screen and not stick to the "storage" bit of it: a few vectors on the 4052A, a couple of dozen on the 4054A I think. I don't have the A upgrade, alas... I experimented at one stage with getting the 4052 to talk to a Commodore disk drive. It works, but the 4052 has an annoying habit of asserting IFC at the least convenient moment (such as, when it clears everything prior to loading a program). I think it needs a MUPET! Philip. From mshaw at columbusschoolforgirls.org Sat Jun 21 17:10:59 2008 From: mshaw at columbusschoolforgirls.org (Martha Shaw) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 18:10:59 -0400 Subject: sell/donate: Wang Professional Computer in Columbus Ohio References: <457252.26985.qm@web51602.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <24F940EC54CF0D42B67CABC72C46FAE20193C119@csgmail01.columbusschoolforgirls.org> Hi, do you want to buy xeroxed copies of the manual? I could get you those, I'm sure. I am not at home so I can't check the boot disk. But when I return home I can. Is it something that could be copied? I'd be glad to help you if it could be. So far, it looks like we are not finding a buyer. Martha ________________________________ From: schwepes at moog.netaxs.com [mailto:schwepes at moog.netaxs.com] Sent: Fri 6/20/2008 6:25 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Martha Shaw Subject: Re: sell/donate: Wang Professional Computer in Columbus Ohio Actually, I'm not interested in the machine. I have one. I am interested in copies of the software, particularily the boot disk and the manual. I just want to know of the lump of metal beside my work table works. I'd also be interested in what you ultimately get for it. bs in Philadelphia On Wed, 18 Jun 2008, steven stengel wrote: > ------------------------------------------------------------ > This is not my system, please email Martha if interested. > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > From: Martha Shaw > Subject: RE: selling a Wang Wordprocessor > Date: Wednesday, June 18, 2008, 3:45 PM > > I have a Wang word processor from the 1980's. I would > like to sell it or donate it (take a deduction) if I can. > > It's called the Wang Professional Computer in it's > manual which is copyrighted 1985. This one was > used for training when the person who owned it worked at > home and trained others when she worked for Wang. It works > and has a printer, as well as 10 printer wheels and 11 > ribbons. > Martha Shaw > > ------------------------------------------------------------ > This is not my system, please email Martha if interested. > ------------------------------------------------------------ > > > > > From hardware at ees1s0.engr.ccny.cuny.edu Sat Jun 21 20:19:06 2008 From: hardware at ees1s0.engr.ccny.cuny.edu (Kurt Rosenfeld) Date: Sat, 21 Jun 2008 21:19:06 -0400 Subject: Sun 3/60 for trade Message-ID: <20080622011906.GF3935@eesfc24.engr.ccny.cuny.edu> Hello, I have a Sun 3/60 that I would like to trade. My interest is uncommon Tektronix stuff, pre-1980. The Sun machine comes with the monitor (color, big, heavy), the keyboard, the optical mouse, the optical mouse pad, and an external 1.4GB disk that has NetBSD on it. The machine seems to work fine. It POSTs with no warnings and I can log in and do stuff. I have even had it online, and used it as a webserver as some point in the 21st century. Local pickup only. I am in New York City and I don't have a car. thanks, -kurt From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Sun Jun 22 05:16:50 2008 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 11:16:50 +0100 Subject: Listing paper FTGH (Yorks, UK) In-Reply-To: <200806210752.m5L7ptKS086676@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200806210752.m5L7ptKS086676@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <80A7C161-1529-4C76-838E-22BD330585D4@microspot.co.uk> On 21 Jun, 2008, at 08:52, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > Message: 33 > Date: Fri, 20 Jun 2008 22:12:04 +0100 > From: "John & Rachel" > Subject: Listing paper FTGH (Yorks, UK) > To: > Message-ID: <000501c8d31a$4fa20dd0$4401a8c0 at JOHN> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Must be a common problem getting rid of spare paper. Did you get > any takers as I have some too. Anyone who was disapointed? Hi, Not disappointed, but Yorkshire is just too far away and paper is heavy so shipping is too expensive. If anyone in the Kent/Sussex/ Essex area has any cheap listing paper at least 13" wide (for a 120 column drum line printer) I would be interested. I am also interested in punched card drawers, paper tape cabinets, one more paper tape winder, an engineer who can repair IBM keypunches, 4mm patch cables for IBM patch panels (they have ball bearings in the plugs), an IBM keypunch control drum, data plugs or cables for connecting to IBM keypunches and Flexowriters. Any documentation or other items related to the ICT 1300 series, especially the mysterious 1302 would be a real gem to find. I have quantities of blank paper tape and blank punched cards if anyone needs them, though I am always on the look out for more in different colours so I can easily recognise programs at a distance. Roger Holmes From billdeg at degnanco.com Sun Jun 22 08:42:45 2008 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 09:42:45 -0400 Subject: INFOREX Core Memory Controller with DATARAM core memory cartridge / daughter card. Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20080622093149.00bf2330@smtp.degnanco.com> I received a box a while back containing an INFOREX Core Memory Controller from late 1970 / early 1971 and a DATARAM core memory cartridge / daughter card. The DATARAM core is 4K I believe, but I did not open it to check. The box also contained a document (not the product docs) ranging from 1971-1978 about this type of 4K and 8K core memory, and some interesting pages about installing and using core memory with an S-100 data bus. It looks like the original owner was trying to figure out how to use this card. I assume that this particular DATARAM core memory could be used in both the pictured below DEC-like controller and a homebrew S-100 controller, but it was originally built for systems in the late 60's early 70's before the S-100 bus, etc... Given the condition of the card and memory, it's very possible that these components work. Now I just need a computer to put them in...hmmm. I have a basic idea of what the A, B and C card connectors do from some notes included with the board on a scrap of paper (assuming they're correct). For example pin 22 of connector A is a master reset, 25 is read enable, 26 is write enable. B 9 is a strobe and 13-19 are data in, etc. Let me know what info I can provide. I am not an engineer however. Pictures: http://www.vintagecomputer.net/inforex/ Can anyone shed light on the history/use of this? Thanks. Bill From kfergason at gmail.com Sun Jun 22 10:48:22 2008 From: kfergason at gmail.com (Kelly Fergason) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 10:48:22 -0500 Subject: Corestore - the Big Move In-Reply-To: <485D1EA1.2090500@gmail.com> References: <485D1EA1.2090500@gmail.com> Message-ID: <78ff9a210806220848q4342c232q3899f68e4397125c@mail.gmail.com> Hilarious, and disturbing... I admit I was afraid to click on the "floppy" pics... From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sun Jun 22 10:54:55 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 11:54:55 -0400 Subject: CP/M Z80 home brew computer circuit board Message-ID: <6417CEF6D7274AC281755C5AA26B1092@andrewdesktop> > -----Original Message----- > From: Andrew Lynch [mailto:lynchaj at yahoo.com] > Sent: Friday, June 13, 2008 6:58 PM > To: 'cctalk at classiccmp.org' > Subject: CP/M Z80 home brew computer circuit board > > Hi, > > If anyone would like to make their own low cost home brew Z80 CP/M > computer please contact me by email. > > I have manufactured PCBs available for sale for $20 each plus shipping. > Preprogrammed EPROMs are also available for sale. > > The hardware and software are documented including schematics, source > code, binary images, PCB layout, parts list, etc. > > Details of the single board computer are available at: > > http://groups.google.com/group/n8vem > > Thanks! > > Andrew Lynch [AJL>] Hi All, Just in case anyone is still interested in building their own Z80 CP/M home brew SBC here is your opportunity. I have sold most of the PCBs in the first batch. As of this morning, I have less than 25% of remaining stock. I recommend that if you are going to order one of these PCBs then you should do it soon. I do not know if or when there will be another batch. If there is, it takes three weeks from my order to delivery and delivery to you is on top of that. Most likely, the demand for home brew / classic computer PCBs is fairly limited to a small group of enthusiasts. Ordering more PCBs at a practical unit cost is a delicate issue since I would like to get them out for people but also want to limit my personal expenses on this to a reasonable level. I do not expect to fully break even on the project but at least not lose my shirt on it either. Probably it means the next batch will involve a waiting list until there are enough people signed up to make the order practical. If anyone has better suggestions on how to do an amateur electronics project or a better idea, I am open to *constructive* input. I do appreciate your helpful comments. Please do not reply with "I don't like your project because..." Those comments aren't very helpful and IMO generally just contribute to the noise on CCTALK. Thank you in advance and have a nice day! Andrew Lynch From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Jun 22 11:05:40 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 09:05:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Corestore - the Big Move In-Reply-To: <78ff9a210806220848q4342c232q3899f68e4397125c@mail.gmail.com> from Kelly Fergason at "Jun 22, 8 10:48:22 am" Message-ID: <200806221605.m5MG5em4020334@floodgap.com> > Hilarious, and disturbing... I admit I was afraid to click on the > "floppy" pics... Clearly his internal drives were hard. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- This message will self-destruct in five seconds. Good luck, Jim. -- M:I ---- From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Jun 22 13:08:35 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 11:08:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sun 3/60 for trade In-Reply-To: <20080622011906.GF3935@eesfc24.engr.ccny.cuny.edu> References: <20080622011906.GF3935@eesfc24.engr.ccny.cuny.edu> Message-ID: <47915.71.139.37.220.1214158115.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> > Hello, > I have a Sun 3/60 that I would like to trade. My interest is > uncommon Tektronix stuff, pre-1980. [...] Local pickup only. No offense intended, but the way I read that is "I have some stuff that is nearly common as dirt, which I'm not willing to ship, but I'd like to trade it for some rare and highly prized stuff that someone else will probably have to ship to me." I suppose there's a small chance that it might work, but I wouldn't hold my breath. Regards, Eric From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Sun Jun 22 13:37:27 2008 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 14:37:27 -0400 Subject: Sun 3/60 for trade In-Reply-To: <47915.71.139.37.220.1214158115.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <200806221837.m5MIbXlw043833@keith.ezwind.net> For sale, several boxes of real cool almost new stuff in 25 to 50 pound boxes. Only $1 per pound. Actual shipping cost plus a small transfer tax and handling fee will be added to all shipping charges (not to excede 50%). I am selling this stuff to raise some spare change, so sorry, no local pickup! Due to my pressing need for spare change, only rolled change sent by overnight express accepted for payment at this time. Any takers ? :-) Shields up and back under my rock, I go...... The other Bob PS: I think I have enough quarters now, so nickels and dimes are prefered ...... On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 11:08:35 -0700 (PDT), Eric Smith wrote: >> Hello, >> I have a Sun 3/60 that I would like to trade. My interest is >> uncommon Tektronix stuff, pre-1980. [...] Local pickup only. >No offense intended, but the way I read that is "I have some stuff >that is nearly common as dirt, which I'm not willing to ship, but I'd >like to trade it for some rare and highly prized stuff that someone >else will probably have to ship to me." I suppose there's a small >chance that it might work, but I wouldn't hold my breath. >Regards, >Eric From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Sun Jun 22 15:31:08 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 21:31:08 +0100 Subject: Need Mac OS 6.0.4 In-Reply-To: <8FD67A12-25D2-4324-8B59-127F62A571E6@jvdg.net> References: <8FD67A12-25D2-4324-8B59-127F62A571E6@jvdg.net> Message-ID: <485EB68C.5040806@gjcp.net> Joost van de Griek wrote: > Another resource for old Mac OS files is Gamba's site, the link to which > is not to be posted, so Google will have to be your friend, there. Why not (just curious)? Gordon From trag at io.com Sun Jun 22 20:04:06 2008 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 20:04:06 -0500 Subject: Daystar Universal PowerCache & SE/30... In-Reply-To: <200806221701.m5MH1htA015182@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200806221701.m5MH1htA015182@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 01:19:33 -0700 >From: Josh Dersch >Subject: Daystar Universal PowerCache & SE/30... >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Message-ID: <485E0B15.1080706 at msu.edu> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > >Scored a nice find for 50 cents today, a 50Mhz 68030 Daystar "Universal >PowerCache" accelerator card. From my research on the web this should >be SE/30 compatible, but requires some manner of a PDS adapter which is >essentially impossible to find. > >The card won't physically fit in the SE/30 due to the metal chassis >getting in the way -- anyone know if this is the only reason the adapter >is needed, or are there electrical differences as well? As my SE/30 is >kind of a mongrel anyway I wouldn't mind hacking up the chassis a bit to >allow the card to fit, but if the adapter is actually necessary I won't >bother... The Daystar SE/30 adapter has a Programmable Logic Device on board which massages the connections. The PowerCache will not work plugged in directly. However, the connector will physically fit, so there's some good opportunity there for electrical drama if you manage to plug it in without the adapter. The PowerCache only works in the IIci, IIvx and IIvi (and corresponding Performa models) without an adapter. The same is true for the 68040 based Turbo040. There is a large amount of discussion on this topic at 68kmla.net. Also at applefritter.com, but less active. And searching in Google on Gamba and SE/30 will turn up a very useful page of information. There is a fellow in Japan who apparently reverse engineered the PLD and designed and built (or caused to be designed and built) his own adapter design. However, he charges $200 for his adapter. Given the costs and risks involved (he probably has ~$10,000 sunk in the project) it is a reasonable price to charge, but most folks do not think it is a reasonable price to pay. I think Artmix and Twinspark would be good search terms to turn that up. Jeff Walther From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Jun 22 21:51:17 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 19:51:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Daystar Universal PowerCache & SE/30... In-Reply-To: from Jeff Walther at "Jun 22, 8 08:04:06 pm" Message-ID: <200806230251.m5N2pHm5019410@floodgap.com> > The Daystar SE/30 adapter has a Programmable Logic Device on board > which massages the connections. The PowerCache will not work > plugged in directly. Wouldn't a IIsi adaptor work? IIRC the SE/30 PDS slot and IIsi PDS slot are electrically compatible (but don't take my word for it). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- There's an old proverb that says just about whatever you want it to. ------- From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Jun 22 22:11:06 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 20:11:06 -0700 Subject: Sun 3/60 for trade In-Reply-To: <47915.71.139.37.220.1214158115.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <20080622011906.GF3935@eesfc24.engr.ccny.cuny.edu> <47915.71.139.37.220.1214158115.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: At 11:08 AM -0700 6/22/08, Eric Smith wrote: >No offense intended, but the way I read that is "I have some stuff >that is nearly common as dirt, which I'm not willing to ship, but I'd >like to trade it for some rare and highly prized stuff that someone >else will probably have to ship to me." I suppose there's a small >chance that it might work, but I wouldn't hold my breath. Realistically "common as dirt" doesn't sound very accurate to me. I've only ever seen one Sun 3 system, and that was one being used by the Navy back in '92. This might be something like someone from near one of the old DEC sites saying PDT-11's (note I said PDT, not PDP) are common as dirt. Remember commonality can be location based. Having said that, this does remind me of people posting they want to buy a Nikon D300 for only $1300 on Craigslist. At face value, it is crazy, but possible, as I saw a posting for someone wanting to sell one and a bunch of new lenses for close to that (some people buy a camera like that and then realize it is too much for them). Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Jun 22 22:18:51 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 23:18:51 -0400 Subject: Sun 3/60 for trade In-Reply-To: References: <20080622011906.GF3935@eesfc24.engr.ccny.cuny.edu> <47915.71.139.37.220.1214158115.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > Realistically "common as dirt" doesn't sound very accurate to me. I've only > ever seen one Sun 3 system, and that was one being used by the Navy back in > '92. This might be something like someone from near one of the old DEC > sites saying PDT-11's (note I said PDT, not PDP) are common as dirt. > > Remember commonality can be location based. Yes, in some parts of the country, Sun-3s of all flavors were extremely common. I just saw one at the MIT Flea last week. They are drying up now, but still easy to find with some legwork. Maybe "common as galena". -- Will From derschjo at msu.edu Sun Jun 22 03:15:36 2008 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 01:15:36 -0700 Subject: 9-track BOT/EOT markers? In-Reply-To: <485D08E8.7060504@reeltapetransfer.com> References: <478067.35706.qm@web35306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <4854B8FC.5060400@msu.edu> <485D08E8.7060504@reeltapetransfer.com> Message-ID: <485E0A28.3060208@msu.edu> Thanks for the offer; another kind member of the list has already hooked me up so I'm all set :). Thanks again, Josh Keven Miller (rtt) wrote: > Josh Dersch wrote: >> Excellent! Thank you (and Al!) for the information. >> Now -- where can I find new BOT/EOT marker foil or a reasonable >> facsimile? :) >> > > I have one roll of "3M 650 sensing markers". > " 1 inch long tabs, 250 per card" > " For magnetic computer tape used on digital transports." > from 3M Data Storage Products 3M 1988 34-7023-6197-2 > > I can't seem to find any on the web. > But I would be willing to roll up a few feet of this stuff > and send it. > I think I've only used 2 myself. > > Keven Miller > Orem Ut, 84097 > > > > From philip at axeside.co.uk Sun Jun 22 03:18:19 2008 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 09:18:19 +0100 Subject: One tonne 'Baby' marks its birth In-Reply-To: <485D8A2A.30509@arachelian.com> References: <485D8A2A.30509@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <485E0ACB.1030808@axeside.co.uk> Ray Arachelian wrote: > http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7465115.stm > > > One tonne 'Baby' marks its birth > By Jonathan Fildes > Science and technology reporter, BBC News > > Baby project team > The four remaining members of the Baby team will be honoured in Manchester > > Sixty years ago the "modern computer" was born in a lab in Manchester. > > The Small Scale Experimental Machine, or "Baby", was the first to > contain memory which could store a program. > > The room-sized computer's ability to carry out different tasks - without > having to be rebuilt - has led some to describe it as the "first modern > PC". > > Ha! Interesting article, but I'm not convinced of its factual accuracy. > Electrical charges on the screen of the CRT were used to represent > binary information. A positive charge represented a one and a negative > charge a zero. > > A metal grid attached to the screen read the different charges. A > graphical representation - dashes for a one and dots for a zero - was > displayed on a second CRT wired in parallel to the memory device. I think the point they've missed is that the two CRTs were _literally_ "wired in parallel". The display of dot for zero and dash for one arose because that was how it was really stored. I don't think it was positive and negative charges... If you're ever in Manchester, the reconstructed Baby is in the Museum of Science and Industry in Manchester (MSIM), and I think it runs on Thursdays. Philip. From derschjo at msu.edu Sun Jun 22 03:19:33 2008 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 01:19:33 -0700 Subject: Daystar Universal PowerCache & SE/30... Message-ID: <485E0B15.1080706@msu.edu> Scored a nice find for 50 cents today, a 50Mhz 68030 Daystar "Universal PowerCache" accelerator card. From my research on the web this should be SE/30 compatible, but requires some manner of a PDS adapter which is essentially impossible to find. The card won't physically fit in the SE/30 due to the metal chassis getting in the way -- anyone know if this is the only reason the adapter is needed, or are there electrical differences as well? As my SE/30 is kind of a mongrel anyway I wouldn't mind hacking up the chassis a bit to allow the card to fit, but if the adapter is actually necessary I won't bother... Thanks, Josh From derschjo at msu.edu Sun Jun 22 03:25:19 2008 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 01:25:19 -0700 Subject: Good Composite->VGA converters for classic computers (& video games...) In-Reply-To: References: <4841BCBA.1070109@msu.edu> <44050.71.139.37.220.1212343467.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <484BA66F.1020503@msu.edu> <484DA5F1.1070105@oldskool.org> <484DF45B.6050006@msu.edu> <484EAECD.2000304@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <485E0C6F.6090601@msu.edu> Eric J Korpela wrote: >>> Well, sure. I wasn't expecting the highest quality output for what I paid >>> (but I didn't _need_ that...). But I wasn't expecting it to be unable to >>> sync to half of my gear :). >>> > > I'm really surprised at that. Might it be as easy as some signal > conditioning? Use an LM1881 to separate the sync, and then put it > back together a bit cleaner? > > "unable to sync" is technically inaccurate, I misspoke. The picture is synced properly (i.e. it's not rolling vertically or tearing horizontally). It just seems to have trouble de-interlacing certain signals -- from my inexpert observations, one field of each frame is displayed properly, while the other field is skewed at a 30 degree angle or so and flickers like mad. At any rate, I've sent that unit back and I picked up a used one of these: http://www.startech.com/item/VID2VGATV-Composite-S-Video-Component-YCbCr-to-VGAHDTV-Scaler-Converter.aspx (for _considerably_ less than what it's listed for there...). So far it's happy with everything I've thrown at it and the picture quality is quite good. Has decent controls, seems well built, etc... Thanks, Josh From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Mon Jun 23 04:27:13 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 02:27:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TRIPOS and memory protection Message-ID: While fantasizing having a PDP-11 of my own, I was reading about TRIPOS and decided that would be fun to play with. This line from the TRIPOS wikipedia article caught my attention: The most important TRIPOS concepts have been the non-memory-management approach (meaning no checks are performed to stop programs from using unallocated memory) Does this mean that any process is allowed to scribble anywhere in memory without provoking a segfault? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Jun 23 07:41:36 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 07:41:36 -0500 Subject: Need Mac OS 6.0.4 In-Reply-To: <485EB68C.5040806@gjcp.net> References: <8FD67A12-25D2-4324-8B59-127F62A571E6@jvdg.net> <485EB68C.5040806@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <485F9A00.10803@oldskool.org> Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Joost van de Griek wrote: > >> Another resource for old Mac OS files is Gamba's site, the link to >> which is not to be posted, so Google will have to be your friend, there. > > Why not (just curious)? I don't know, maybe something about not pirating software. Which is silly, because we need to in order to keep these machines alive. Unfortunately, Gamba passed away in 2003, so it is now more than ever important to share the site's URL: http://home.earthlink.net/~gamba2/index.html Luckily the internet archive has a copy. However, a much more useful link, with all the files mirrored, is here: http://www.fenestrated.net/mirrors/ -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From dholland at woh.rr.com Mon Jun 23 08:54:57 2008 From: dholland at woh.rr.com (David Holland) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 09:54:57 -0400 Subject: Tru64 AdvFS Message-ID: <1214229297.14872.3.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> Via the grapevine... http://advfs.sourceforge.net/ Doesn't mean a great deal to me, since I've never even seen a Tru64 box, but thought it might be of interest to someone..... From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Jun 23 09:17:13 2008 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 10:17:13 -0400 Subject: Tru64 AdvFS In-Reply-To: <1214229297.14872.3.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> References: <1214229297.14872.3.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> Message-ID: <18330.1214230633@mini> David Holland wrote: >Via the grapevine... > >http://advfs.sourceforge.net/ > >Doesn't mean a great deal to me, since I've never even seen a Tru64 box, >but thought it might be of interest to someone..... I've been drooling over Sun's "zfs" lately, which seems to have many of the same features. But zfs is not gpl - worse, it appears to be purposefully anti-gpl. Since Sun wrote it they can do as they please, but it seems a shame to lock it out of linux (for me anyway). I wonder how advfs and zfs compare in terms of stability and resource use. Also, advfs does not mention the "self repairing" features of zfs which make it so tempting for long term archiving (there, now i'm inside the bounds :-) I do worry about long term corruption and zfs seems to have that solved (i.e. a simple raid-1 setup will save you) Word on the street is that zfs is *very* resource intensive and best run in 64 bit kernels, but that when run the pool and self repairing features make it very easy to administer. I'd be curious to hear if anyone is using zfs for long term archival and how they feel about being glued to solaris to use it. (aside: I used to be a serious solaris weenie back in the day, so I'm a fan, but linux just became so much more practical at some point) -brad From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon Jun 23 09:36:33 2008 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 07:36:33 -0700 Subject: Sun 3/60 for trade In-Reply-To: <47915.71.139.37.220.1214158115.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <20080622011906.GF3935@eesfc24.engr.ccny.cuny.edu> <47915.71.139.37.220.1214158115.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <200806230736.33896.lbickley@bickleywest.com> On Sunday 22 June 2008 11:08, Eric Smith wrote: > > Hello, > > I have a Sun 3/60 that I would like to trade. My interest is > > uncommon Tektronix stuff, pre-1980. [...] Local pickup only. > > No offense intended, but the way I read that is "I have some stuff > that is nearly common as dirt, which I'm not willing to ship, but I'd > like to trade it for some rare and highly prized stuff that someone > else will probably have to ship to me." I suppose there's a small > chance that it might work, but I wouldn't hold my breath. I agree with Eric. Suns of just about all vintages are common here in Silicon Valley. Not to be unexpected, however, since this is Sun's "headquarter" location. I've seen everything from IPXs to current Sunfire systems at "Weirdstuff Warehouse" and "Auction BDI" on a fairly regular basis. If you're interested in vintage Sun gear - and it's not available in your area - you might want to join the "Suns at Home" list. It's a low volume list which keeps "on topic": http://www.net-kitchen.com/mailman/listinfo/suns-at-home Cheers, Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. Mountain View, CA http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From trixter at oldskool.org Mon Jun 23 12:01:09 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 12:01:09 -0500 Subject: Tru64 AdvFS In-Reply-To: <18330.1214230633@mini> References: <1214229297.14872.3.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> <18330.1214230633@mini> Message-ID: <485FD6D5.1000400@oldskool.org> Brad Parker wrote: > I'd be curious to hear if anyone is using zfs for long term archival and > how they feel about being glued to solaris to use it. (aside: I used to > be a serious solaris weenie back in the day, so I'm a fan, but linux > just became so much more practical at some point) I have run Solaris at home for a few years now, and I'm also using ZFS. I also run Linux on a different server for different tasks. (OpenSolaris has recently (May 2008) become just as "practical" as Linux (minus about 30% of the driver support Linux has) so you might want to give the OpenSolaris LiveCD a chance.) I am *definitely* using ZFS for long-term archival, as you can be as paranoid as you like about hardware failures: raid-5, raid-6 (double-parity), redundant block copies on the same disk, on different disks, etc. are all supported. The storage is expandable by replacing hard drives one at a time (it is not as graceful as Veritas' "evacuate" function, but they are working on it). Transparent light/realtime compression or heavier/gzip compression on any filesystem if you want it (great for email/text archives). Speed is the best I've seen on any hardware (we use it at work too). However, it is important to never keep all of your eggs in one basket; to that end, I routinely archive to DVD. I used to archive to DLT but the cost and speed became prohibitive once I could get a 16X DVD burner for $30 and quality DVD-Rs for $0.22 a disc including shipping. I have two DLT drives and it is still cheaper and faster to burn discs. (Note that I didn't say easier -- the price for cheaper and faster is my personal time, of course.) I don't agree that you need 64-bit for ZFS. I do agree that you need a minimum of 1G total system RAM for it, preferably 2G, since that helps offload the cost of the parity/crc checks that keep data consistent and ensure that you, the user, never actually *see* any IOs except reading. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 23 12:18:02 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 10:18:02 -0700 Subject: Sun 3/60 for trade In-Reply-To: <200806231700.m5NH0UVR037600@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200806231700.m5NH0UVR037600@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <485F785A.15292.A9EAA2F@cclist.sydex.com> > Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 07:36:33 -0700 > From: Lyle Bickley > If you're interested in vintage Sun gear - and it's not available in your > area - you might want to join the "Suns at Home" list. It's a low volume > list which keeps "on topic": The only vintage Sun gear that I own are a couple of coffee mugs and a couple of oddball (e.g. "The Last Bug") T-shirts. That's enough for me--at least both are still state-of-the-art in terms of utility. Cheers, Chuck From brad at heeltoe.com Mon Jun 23 12:30:36 2008 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 13:30:36 -0400 Subject: Tru64 AdvFS In-Reply-To: <485FD6D5.1000400@oldskool.org> References: <1214229297.14872.3.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> <18330.1214230633@mini> <485FD6D5.1000400@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <21458.1214242236@mini> Jim Leonard wrote: ... >(OpenSolaris has recently (May 2008) become just as "practical" as Linux >(minus about 30% of the driver support Linux has) so you might want to >give the OpenSolaris LiveCD a chance.) interesting. ok. >I am *definitely* using ZFS for long-term archival, as you can be as good to hear. Do you ever use the "snapshot" functionality for backups? >However, it is important to never keep all of your eggs in one basket; I think someone at Google said "keep 3 separate copies". That's what I do. I actually make copies of my main scsi raid-1 to a spare local sata raid-1 and then I make offsite tars of that (to Amazon S3). >I don't agree that you need 64-bit for ZFS. I do agree that you need a >minimum of 1G total system RAM for it, preferably 2G, since that helps >offload the cost of the parity/crc checks that keep data consistent and >ensure that you, the user, never actually *see* any IOs except reading. mmm. ok. memory is cheap. One thing I always liked about Solaris was the rock solid SMP. Time for a new look with zfs. I would think it would run well on the current class of x86 cpu's. thanks for the info! -brad From mtapley at swri.edu Mon Jun 23 13:23:03 2008 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 13:23:03 -0500 Subject: Corestore - the Big Move In-Reply-To: <200806221700.m5MH0mHc015129@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200806221700.m5MH0mHc015129@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 12:00 -0500 6/22/08, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >Clearly his internal drives were hard. ...but warped, to the point of possibly causing a head crash. I did *not* just write that... -- - Mark 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 22 19:32:35 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 01:32:35 +0100 (BST) Subject: TRIPOS and memory protection In-Reply-To: from "David Griffith" at Jun 23, 8 02:27:13 am Message-ID: > > > While fantasizing having a PDP-11 of my own, I was reading about TRIPOS > and decided that would be fun to play with. This line from the TRIPOS > wikipedia article caught my attention: > > The most important TRIPOS concepts have been the non-memory-management > approach (meaning no checks are performed to stop programs from using > unallocated memory) > > Does this mean that any process is allowed to scribble anywhere in memory > without provoking a segfault? I beleive so. I'll have to look at the sources again, but I am pretty sure that the original TRIPOS would run on a PDP11/03. And I seem to rememebr mention of the PDP11/40 or PDP11/45 in the source, but that the MMU was not used. -tony From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Jun 23 14:20:55 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 12:20:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for a Zenith Z29 terminal, and some VT100 keyboards Message-ID: <261896.52293.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Well, I just acquired some VT100's, albiet without keyboards. So, now I'm looking for some VT100 keyboards - even broken or damaged ones. Also, I _just_ missed a Zenith Z29 terminal (newer than the Z19, with detachable keyboard), on eBay, simply because I forgot to bid before I left the house. Augh! So, I'm looking for one of those too - does anyone have one that is looking for a home? Also, while I'm looking for stuff, anyone have a Qbus Pertec tape drive controller that'll work in a Vax? Thanks guys! -Ian From uban at ubanproductions.com Mon Jun 23 14:50:00 2008 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 14:50:00 -0500 Subject: Looking for a Zenith Z29 terminal, and some VT100 keyboards In-Reply-To: <261896.52293.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <261896.52293.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <485FFE68.7060301@ubanproductions.com> Back in the day, the Z29 was probably the last discrete terminal I used on a daily basis. It was connected to a VAX11/750 running BSD Unix (which I administrated for the Physics department at Purdue University). The one I used had orange/amber phosphor and in my opinion, out of all of the terminals I used over the years, was the best terminal that I ever used, period. Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Well, I just acquired some VT100's, albiet without keyboards. So, now I'm looking for some VT100 keyboards - even broken or damaged ones. > > Also, I _just_ missed a Zenith Z29 terminal (newer than the Z19, with detachable keyboard), on eBay, simply because I forgot to bid before I left the house. Augh! So, I'm looking for one of those too - does anyone have one that is looking for a home? > > Also, while I'm looking for stuff, anyone have a Qbus Pertec tape drive controller that'll work in a Vax? > > Thanks guys! > > -Ian > > From sellam at vintagetech.com Mon Jun 23 16:18:53 2008 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 14:18:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: George Carlin died :( Message-ID: This is on-topic, I swear, as I'll demonstrate in a moment. But first, if you haven't yet heard, George Carlin died yesterday. For those outside of the US not familiar with his work, Carlin was an iconoclastic icon, and I use those terms explicitly literally in this case. The world will truly bu a suckier place without him. Today on Fresh Air (NPR talk program) Terry Gross ran old interviews with Carlin. In a 2004 interview (which I must've missed) he mentions that he enlisted in the military (he explains he did this to avoid the draft, i.e. the idea was he would get to choose what he wanted to do) and ended up in electronics and computers, and he specifically mentioned that he worked on analog computers. So besides being awesome, George Carlin was a hacker! LONG LIVE GEORGE!! Shit, piss, fuck, cunt, cocksucker, motherfucker, and tits!! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From daviderhart at oldzonian.com Mon Jun 23 16:58:07 2008 From: daviderhart at oldzonian.com (David W. Erhart) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 17:58:07 -0400 Subject: Amiga Development System and Sage IV Message-ID: <23981324.63851214258287729.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> Hello everyone, I was recently contacted by a software developer that had an old Sage IV computer that needed a new home. He found me through my Sage and Stride website (http://www.sageandstride.org). He used the Sage IV in the 1980's as part of an Amiga Development System. He was extremely generous and donated both the Sage IV and the Amiga Development System to me, along with software and documentation. I've checked the Sage IV and it is booting to the floppy drive but the hard drive is being a little troublesome. I'll deal with that later. I would like to ask the cctalk community for some ideas on how to bring up the Amiga Development System ... without damaging it. I've posted pictures of the Amiga Development System on WebShots: http://entertainment.webshots.com/album/563890692JxMvHh I'm in no rush to 'boot' the Amiga Development System. I imagine there aren't too many of these floating around, so I want to be extremely careful about bringing it up. I found some pictures that show a system that appears similar, including the wooden keyboard enclosure (I think these are Dale Luck's). http://www.amigau.com/aig/commodore/devbox_black.jpg http://www.amigau.com/aig/prototypes/cbm-lorraine-portrait.jpg http://www.amigau.com/aig/prototypes/amigapcdev.html http://www.amigau.com/aig/prototypes/cbm-lorraine-portrait.jpg >From the docs and what I've learned by talking to other early Amiga developers, the Sage IV was used in developing a lot of the early Amiga code. The Sage IV that I just received uses the Idris OS (Unix clone) and it included the full Idris set of install diskettes and documentation (or so it appears) for the Sage IV. My hope is to show this at the Vintage Computer Festival this fall in my Sage and Stride exhibit, hooked up to a running Sage IV, etc. I would appreciate any suggestions. Thanks!! Regards, david. ----------------------------------- David W. Erhart daviderhart at hotmail.com daviderhart at sageandstride.org http://www.sageandstride.org California, USA From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Jun 23 17:11:21 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 15:11:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Amiga Development System and Sage IV In-Reply-To: <23981324.63851214258287729.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> from "David W. Erhart" at "Jun 23, 8 05:58:07 pm" Message-ID: <200806232211.m5NMBLAc021044@floodgap.com> > I was recently contacted by a software developer that had an old Sage IV > computer that needed a new home. He found me through my Sage and Stride > website (http://www.sageandstride.org). He used the Sage IV in the 1980's > as part of an Amiga Development System. Was it like this unit? http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/ckb/secret/cbm-rlorr-agony.jpg http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/ckb/secret/cbm-rlorr-agony2.jpg This is the one Dale Luck exhibited and was christened, in typical Amiga humor, as "Agony." The rest of the developer prototype photos I have are on http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/ckb/secret/lorraine.html They look slightly different than yours, which seems to be a later version? > From the docs and what I've learned by talking to other early Amiga > developers, the Sage IV was used in developing a lot of the early Amiga > code. This is also my understanding. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong. -- Oscar Wilde From daviderhart at oldzonian.com Mon Jun 23 17:47:18 2008 From: daviderhart at oldzonian.com (David W. Erhart) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 18:47:18 -0400 Subject: Amiga Development System and Sage IV Message-ID: <5840677.71161214261238325.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> >> I was recently contacted by a software developer that had an old Sage IV >> computer that needed a new home. He found me through my Sage and Stride >> website (http://www.sageandstride.org). He used the Sage IV in the 1980's >> as part of an Amiga Development System. > >Was it like this unit? > > http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/ckb/secret/cbm-rlorr-agony.jpg > http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/ckb/secret/cbm-rlorr-agony2.jpg > Yes, it's the same Sage IV model. I'm familiar with 'Agony'. I met Dale Luck last year and he let me get my grubby hands on Agony to help revive it (still ongoing...). I've added pictures of the Sage IV I just received to the group of photos of the Amiga Development System at: http://entertainment.webshots.com/album/563890692JxMvHh The Sage IV pictures are the last in the batch. >This is the one Dale Luck exhibited and was christened, in typical Amiga >humor, as "Agony." The rest of the developer prototype photos I have are >on > > http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/ckb/secret/lorraine.html > >They look slightly different than yours, which seems to be a later version? > >> From the docs and what I've learned by talking to other early Amiga >> developers, the Sage IV was used in developing a lot of the early Amiga >> code. > >This is also my understanding. > >-- >------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ >-- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com >-- Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong. -- Oscar >Wilde From tiggerlasv at aim.com Mon Jun 23 20:19:29 2008 From: tiggerlasv at aim.com (tiggerlasv at aim.com) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 21:19:29 -0400 Subject: Looking for a Zenith Z29 terminal, and some VT100 keyboards Message-ID: <8CAA3AF7BF4912F-C78-24E3@webmail-nd12.sysops.aol.com> VT100 keyboards? I've seen some recently on e-bay, but they could be closed by now. I definitely saw a VT102 keyboard last night, so that is probably still there, although it's like $50. . . > Also, while I'm looking for stuff, anyone have a Qbus > Pertec tape drive controller that'll work in a Vax? > Thanks guys! > -Ian I believe VMS supports the TSV05, so any TSV05-compatible controller should work; Dilog DQ132, etc. Coincidentally, I'll be posting one or two Pertec controllers on e-bay tonight, although they are (operationally) untested. They do respond to "pokes" to the CSR / SA registers, and appear to pass self-tests, though. ;-) T From trag at io.com Mon Jun 23 20:22:23 2008 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 20:22:23 -0500 Subject: Daystar Universal PowerCache & SE/30... In-Reply-To: <200806231701.m5NH1D8X037638@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200806231701.m5NH1D8X037638@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >Date: Sun, 22 Jun 2008 19:51:17 -0700 (PDT) >From: Cameron Kaiser >> The Daystar SE/30 adapter has a Programmable Logic Device on board >> which massages the connections. The PowerCache will not work >> plugged in directly. > >Wouldn't a IIsi adaptor work? IIRC the SE/30 PDS slot and IIsi PDS slot >are electrically compatible (but don't take my word for it). Hi Cameron. Good to see you around. Yes, the IIsi adapter will work, except, it will point it's expansion slot horizontally where there isn't room for a card. So one needs to use an extra Euro-Din connector of the right-angle type to adapt it to vertical. No soldering is required, as the pins of the connector will fit nicely in the IIsi adapter's connector's holes. This is explained in clearer detail on Gamba's site. Jeff Walther From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Jun 23 22:06:43 2008 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 20:06:43 -0700 Subject: Looking for a Zenith Z29 terminal, and some VT100 keyboards In-Reply-To: <8CAA3AF7BF4912F-C78-24E3@webmail-nd12.sysops.aol.com> References: <8CAA3AF7BF4912F-C78-24E3@webmail-nd12.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90806232006s211910cft8dc76951d5f225e5@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 6:19 PM, wrote: > > I believe VMS supports the TSV05, so any TSV05-compatible > controller should work; Dilog DQ132, etc. > I have an Emulex QT13 Qbus Pertec controller that works nicely with a Fujistu M244XAC drive in TMSCP mode. I haven't tried it in TSV05 mode. The QT13 is nice as it is easy to configure and it doesn't have a bazillion jumpers to figure out as some other controllers do. Which brings me to the DQ142, anyone have DQ142 docs? I have one of those I should try sometime. The DQ132 and DU142 docs are on bitsavers, but not the DQ142. From given_todd at wblake.com Mon Jun 23 16:36:02 2008 From: given_todd at wblake.com (Todd Given) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 2008 17:36:02 -0400 Subject: FS: MMJ plugs & cables Message-ID: Do you have any of the Amp plugs left? Todd A. Given Engineering Manager-Assembly Operations Whitney Blake Company Tel: (802) 463-1120 Fax: (802) 463-1111 given_todd at wblake.com From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Tue Jun 24 01:56:13 2008 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 08:56:13 +0200 Subject: TRIPOS and memory protection In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: MC68000 versions of TRIPOS (including AmigaDOS) definitely had no interprocess memory protection. I don't know if later versions of AmigaDOS implemented protection if a hardware MMU was available or even whether they were still considered TRIPOS derivatives. From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Tue Jun 24 02:36:02 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 07:36:02 +0000 Subject: TRIPOS and memory protection In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080624073602.GA1751@usap.gov> On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 08:56:13AM +0200, Eric J Korpela wrote: > MC68000 versions of TRIPOS (including AmigaDOS) definitely had no > interprocess memory protection. I don't know if later versions of > AmigaDOS implemented protection if a hardware MMU was available or > even whether they were still considered TRIPOS derivatives. AmigaDOS itself never used the MMU for memory protection, but there was a tool available _with_ AmigaDOS (first for developers, then for everyone) called "Enforcer" that would set up some basic memory protection between all processes and sensitive parts of the OS. The basic memory protection scheme was to write-protect low mem so a random process wouldn't scribble on $00000000 or $0000004 (reads/writes to $00000000 usually meant that your code was trying to dereference a null pointer - the reaction to which is implementation specific - it's usually safe to treat a null pointer as if it were a pointer to a null (zero-length string), but it's equally valid for the code to puke from trying it; reads of $00000004 are absolutely required on the Amiga because that's how you find all the libraries and system structures. _Writes_ however are very bad and can crash the machine in under a second). I don't think there ever was any attempt to prevent one process from scribbling on another process, though. Enforcer just kept you out of the OS-required area and kept you from accidentally writing to unallocated memory (falling off the ends of buffers, etc). Malicious writes into other process space wouldn't have been stopped. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 24-Jun-2008 at 07:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -79.4 F (-61.9 C) Windchill -113.8 F (-81.0 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 8.4 kts Grid 21 Barometer 676.1 mb (10776 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Tue Jun 24 02:43:16 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 07:43:16 +0000 Subject: TRIPOS and memory protection In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080624074316.GB1751@usap.gov> On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 08:56:13AM +0200, Eric J Korpela wrote: > MC68000 versions of TRIPOS (including AmigaDOS) definitely had no > interprocess memory protection. I don't know if later versions of > AmigaDOS implemented protection if a hardware MMU was available or > even whether they were still considered TRIPOS derivatives. Oh... I should probably point out that AmigaDOS was pretty much always tied to its TRIPOS roots, but that the DOS was only part of the software running on the system - the underlying message-passing layer was "Exec", then "Intuition" was the window manager. AmigaDOS was the part worried about loading code segments and the filesystem and system directory structure (where to put scripts and binaries and icons and such). Device drivers and libraries (quite similar internally) and processes and so on, was part of Exec. It's quite a complex system, one reason for the multiple phonebooks for a reference guide - very little of that, though, is AmigaDOS. I think I was an Amiga developer for four or five years before I ever saw the AmigaDOS manual. From day one, though, I had the RKMs (ROM Kernel Manuals) and used them *lots*. You pretty much needed them for any code that had to open a screen or a window, or that would work with disks below the file layer (block access and such) or that fiddled with audio. You could get away from that level of involvement if you just did things with standard sorts of C functions, curses, file I/O, etc., but not for anything deeper. So while AmigaDOS may have been what you saw when you interacted with a CLI window, and it certainly got invoked if you did stdio- sorts of things, as a part of the whole, it wasn't a very big chunk of "The Amiga". I still hate BCPL and BPTRs, though. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 24-Jun-2008 at 07:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -79.4 F (-61.9 C) Windchill -113.8 F (-81.0 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 8.4 kts Grid 21 Barometer 676.1 mb (10776 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From legalize at xmission.com Tue Jun 24 05:08:46 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 04:08:46 -0600 Subject: Looking for a Zenith Z29 terminal, and some VT100 keyboards In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 23 Jun 2008 21:19:29 -0400. <8CAA3AF7BF4912F-C78-24E3@webmail-nd12.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: In article <8CAA3AF7BF4912F-C78-24E3 at webmail-nd12.sysops.aol.com>, tiggerlasv at aim.com writes: > VT100 keyboards? I've seen some recently on e-bay, > but they could be closed by now. The keyboards get listed on ebay fairly regularly. If you're patient and put a search on them, you should eventually get as many as you need. I've purchased a few to attach to my C.ITOH VT100 clone as well as another VT10x machine I have that was sans keyboard. The keyboards are generally offerred in the $20-50 range, depending on the seller. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Jun 24 06:11:07 2008 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 07:11:07 -0400 Subject: Amiga Development System and Sage IV (esp Idris) In-Reply-To: <23981324.63851214258287729.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> References: <23981324.63851214258287729.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> Message-ID: <13874.1214305867@mini> "David W. Erhart" wrote: > >The Sage IV that I just received uses the Idris OS (Unix clone) and it >included the full Idris set of install diskettes and documentation (or so it >appears) for the Sage IV. I've been hunting for Idris files (for any machine) for a while; if you can image those disks I'd love to get a copy. I've never seen anything about Idris on the web, sadly. -brad From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 24 10:38:54 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 11:38:54 -0400 Subject: Tru64 AdvFS In-Reply-To: <18330.1214230633@mini> References: <1214229297.14872.3.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> <18330.1214230633@mini> Message-ID: <10C7C030-A877-458A-A077-C54C2885EA18@neurotica.com> On Jun 23, 2008, at 10:17 AM, Brad Parker wrote: > I've been drooling over Sun's "zfs" lately, which seems to have > many of > the same features. But zfs is not gpl - worse, it appears to be > purposefully anti-gpl. Since Sun wrote it they can do as they please, > but it seems a shame to lock it out of linux (for me anyway). "Non-GPL" doesn't automatically mean "non-good", my friend. ;) I see no good reason why it shouldn't be made available for (but not built into or distributed with) Linux. > Word on the street is that zfs is *very* resource intensive and > best run > in 64 bit kernels, but that when run the pool and self repairing > features > make it very easy to administer. In the context of Solaris, I run only SPARC hardware, which implies 64 bits for current releases of Solaris. I haven't taken any hard numbers, but file operations on ZFS do feel considerably faster than those on UFS, on a very busy system. I'm not sure where the (relative) bottleneck is with UFS, as this is just from observation, not controlled scientific tests: moving my high-activity directories (database filesystem, mail queues and spools) to ZFS made my systems noticeably more responsive. That said, though, I have no doubt that it's burning some CPU to get that additional filesystem performance. > I'd be curious to hear if anyone is using zfs for long term > archival and > how they feel about being glued to solaris to use it. (aside: I > used to > be a serious solaris weenie back in the day, so I'm a fan, but linux > just became so much more practical at some point) I've been using it for day-to-day production for some time. I hit some bugs in very early releases (no loss of data though), but they were squashed pretty quickly. I generally prefer hardware RAID, because I have better things for my CPUs to be doing, but I am completely sold on ZFS. The ease of management, the speed, and the corruption detection are all big deals for me. (and I must say, somewhat amusedly, that I run Solaris instead of Linux because it's so much more practical! ;)) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Jun 24 10:50:27 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 11:50:27 -0400 Subject: Tru64 AdvFS In-Reply-To: <21458.1214242236@mini> References: <1214229297.14872.3.camel@crusader.localdomain.home> <18330.1214230633@mini> <485FD6D5.1000400@oldskool.org> <21458.1214242236@mini> Message-ID: <43C5E7A1-25E7-48F8-B913-B2B4515BDED5@neurotica.com> On Jun 23, 2008, at 1:30 PM, Brad Parker wrote: > One thing I always liked about Solaris was the rock solid SMP. > Time for > a new look with zfs. I would think it would run well on the > current class > of x86 cpu's. I encourage this. Linux is very "whiz-bang" and supports every random PCI card on Earth, but Solaris 10 has some amazing functionality these days (I make very heavy use of Zones here) and it is absolutely indestructible. Especially on UltraSPARC hardware. (multiple UltraSPARC-III+ CPUs) + (8MB cache per CPU) + (FibreChannel disks) == "happy dave" :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Tue Jun 24 10:55:03 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 15:55:03 +0000 Subject: Looking for a Zenith Z29 terminal, and some VT100 keyboards In-Reply-To: References: <8CAA3AF7BF4912F-C78-24E3@webmail-nd12.sysops.aol.com> Message-ID: <20080624155503.GA30391@usap.gov> On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 04:08:46AM -0600, Richard wrote: > The keyboards get listed on ebay fairly regularly. If you're patient > and put a search on them, you should eventually get as many as you > need. I've purchased a few to attach to my C.ITOH VT100 clone as well > as another VT10x machine I have that was sans keyboard. I have had both DEC VT10x terminals and C.ITOH clone terminals for a couple of decades. My recollection is that you cannot swap keyboards between the two vendors. My C.ITOH experience is limited to CIT101 and CIT101e terminals (101s look like VT100s, 101es look more like a Wyse than a DEC design), and I _think_ you can swap the keyboards between CIT101s and CIT101es, but they are visually different types (101 keyboards resemble DEC VT10x keyboards), so in practice, I don't think we did it much back in the day. Do you have different terminals and you _can_ cross-swap keyboards, or did I misread your posting and didn't get that you meant that you have found keyboards from both vendors and have only used like with like? -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 24-Jun-2008 at 15:49 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -84.8 F (-64.9 C) Windchill -113.7 F (-81.0 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 5.5 kts Grid 50 Barometer 678.2 mb (10696 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Tue Jun 24 11:13:57 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 16:13:57 +0000 Subject: Sun 3/60 for trade In-Reply-To: <200806230736.33896.lbickley@bickleywest.com> References: <20080622011906.GF3935@eesfc24.engr.ccny.cuny.edu> <47915.71.139.37.220.1214158115.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> <200806230736.33896.lbickley@bickleywest.com> Message-ID: <20080624161357.GA2427@usap.gov> On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 07:36:33AM -0700, Lyle Bickley wrote: > On Sunday 22 June 2008 11:08, Eric Smith wrote: > > > Hello, > > > I have a Sun 3/60 that I would like to trade. My interest is > > > uncommon Tektronix stuff, pre-1980. [...] Local pickup only. > > > > No offense intended, but the way I read that is "I have some stuff > > that is nearly common as dirt..." > > I agree with Eric. Suns of just about all vintages are common here in Silicon > Valley. Not to be unexpected, however, since this is Sun's "headquarter" > location. I've seen everything from IPXs to current Sunfire systems > at "Weirdstuff Warehouse" and "Auction BDI" on a fairly regular basis. In Ohio, where I am when I'm not here, Sun gear isn't quite as common as mud, but it's usually pretty easy to find Sun gear that's past its prime (no pun intended) at the local Uni surplus. At one point a few years back (2001?), they had pallets of SPARC-LX boxes - most needed to have the EEPROM password cleared (they were set up to netboot, then locked), but there are instructions on the 'net for how to spoof the boot process, and once you can get to a Solaris prompt as root, it's trivial to clear it. Before that, we also had a company in the area that used to upgrade local Sun customers in huge swaths. They took the customers' older machines in trade and resold them retail. I scored my first SPARC1 that way - it was diskless (they'd bundled working disks with packages that were too expensive for me) and had about 25% of a full boat of RAM. It cost as much as my Amiga 1000, but it was a SPARCstation and it was a great learning experience (and responsible for helping me land several excellent jobs, including my first trip to the Pole). Sun stuff is definitely out there, but even so, I wouldn't call pre-SPARC Sun gear common in my area. A while back, though, I did manage to score a Sun 3/60 as it was hitting the dumpster, something I wouldn't expect to see these days. > If you're interested in vintage Sun gear - and it's not available in your > area - you might want to join the "Suns at Home" list. It's a low volume list > which keeps "on topic": > > http://www.net-kitchen.com/mailman/listinfo/suns-at-home That is an excellent Sun-focused list that I (and I think others here as well) have been a member of for years. Lots of really knowlegeble folks and some pretty good free-for-pickup or inexpensive deals on a regular basis. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 24-Jun-2008 at 16:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -85.2 F (-65.1 C) Windchill -116.0 F (-82.2 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 6.2 kts Grid 49 Barometer 678.3 mb (10692 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From daviderhart at oldzonian.com Tue Jun 24 12:02:27 2008 From: daviderhart at oldzonian.com (David W. Erhart) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 13:02:27 -0400 Subject: Amiga Development System and Sage IV (esp Idris) Message-ID: <17505472.6451214326947542.JavaMail.servlet@perfora> > >"David W. Erhart" wrote: >> >>The Sage IV that I just received uses the Idris OS (Unix clone) and it >>included the full Idris set of install diskettes and documentation (or so it > >>appears) for the Sage IV. > >I've been hunting for Idris files (for any machine) for a while; if you >can image those disks I'd love to get a copy. I've never seen anything >about Idris on the web, sadly. > >-brad > There's an entry in Wikipedia about Idris at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idris_(operating_system) A scan of the Idris User Guide is on my FTP site at: ftp://sageandstride.org/pub/IdrisUsersManual2.2.PDF I'll try to get scans of the other three Idris manuals soon, as well as diskette images using Dave Dunfield's ImageDisk program. david. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Tue Jun 24 19:09:26 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 17:09:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: pdp11 blinkenlights panel Message-ID: I was just wondering if anyone here has a pdp11 blinkenlights panel they'd like to part with. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Jun 24 20:31:32 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 18:31:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: pdp11 blinkenlights panel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46548.64.62.206.10.1214357492.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> David wrote: > I was just wondering if anyone here has a pdp11 blinkenlights panel they'd > like to part with. Not that I'd especially _like_ to part with, but perhaps if there was some external motivation... Eric From useddec at gmail.com Tue Jun 24 23:08:54 2008 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 2008 23:08:54 -0500 Subject: pdp11 blinkenlights panel In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <624966d60806242108q3904e243kaa73cba64c204227@mail.gmail.com> I think I have an 11/70 and a few 11/05 or 11/10 panels somewhere. I am just moving back into my house tonight, and have a 40+ ft pod and 6 26 ft storage units to move in. It might take a while. Paul On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 7:09 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > I was just wondering if anyone here has a pdp11 blinkenlights panel they'd > like to part with. > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > From rdahms at internode.on.net Tue Jun 24 17:52:17 2008 From: rdahms at internode.on.net (Russell Dahms) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 08:22:17 +0930 Subject: MD1000-390a Message-ID: <0442774C59854ED4933618B99592C3CE@russell> Hi Is this still available: clearing more goodies out. such much faster and easier than epay, that's for sure. motorola 5inch display in a small cage with electronics like flyback, etc. has connector on back for interfacing. from a xeroxed paper that's in the box, it says standard CGA resolution and gives pinouts. label sez mod #MD1000-390a. from 1986 and is unused. make an offer which will allow me serveral steak burritos at taco bell and its yours. Regards Russell From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Jun 25 06:55:01 2008 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 07:55:01 -0400 Subject: Att'n Zane Healy Message-ID: <48623215.1000609@mdrconsult.com> Zane, Could you ping me offlist? aracnet.com is bouncing incoming. Doc Shipley From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Wed Jun 25 12:44:08 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 18:44:08 +0100 Subject: PDP-8 "Introduction to Programming" In-Reply-To: References: <47BD2A5E.1030807@gmail.com> Message-ID: <486283E8.9080309@gjcp.net> Alec McKenzie wrote: > Symmes, Dave wrote: >> I tripped across this email link on a Google search. >> I was the author of the original PDP-8 * "Introduction to >> Programming", published in either late 1968 or early 1969. I hired >> onto Digital straight out of college as a tech writer joining a >> department of four writers for the whole company. >> Almost 40 years later I am still with HP. > > Great to hear from you. > My copy of "Introduction to Programming" shows: > > First Printing, January 1969 > Second Printing, July 1969 > > Copyright ? 1968, 1969 > > I found it a most useful book, though I had been programming PDP-8's > since 1965, even before the first PDP-8's actually appeared. I've finally dug my copy out (half my books are still boxed up from moving house over six months ago). It's apparently the Second Edition, 1970, still with the Craigmount Secondary School Library tag in the inside cover ;-) My Mum picked it up in a second-hand bookshop in Edinburgh, years ago. "Thought this would interest you", she said, "I know you like old DEC stuff" Based on the wisdom within this book, I wrote a couple of PDP8 emulators. One was even quite good. Gordon From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed Jun 25 17:11:12 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 23:11:12 +0100 Subject: PDP-8 "Introduction to Programming" In-Reply-To: <486283E8.9080309@gjcp.net> References: <47BD2A5E.1030807@gmail.com> <486283E8.9080309@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <4862C280.8090101@dunnington.plus.com> On 25/06/2008 18:44, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > I've finally dug my copy out (half my books are still boxed up from > moving house over six months ago). It's apparently the Second Edition, > 1970, still with the Craigmount Secondary School Library tag in the > inside cover ;-) I will have used that very copy at some point. I used to work at Craigmount, and I remember the four -8s they had quite fondly. Andrew Watt also had an HP2000 system, and later an Apple ][, a very early Beeb, and after the -8s a couple of -11s. He also personally owned a Transam Tuscan that never quite got finished, and a ZX80. A few other things lurked in the region, like my Exidy Sorcerer and someone else's Tangerine. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Wed Jun 25 17:30:20 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 19:30:20 -0300 Subject: eBay - What's special about this Pet? References: Message-ID: <0ed401c8d713$16b41430$160c010a@portajara> >More eBay madness perhaps, these normally go for ?50: - >http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?>ViewItem&item=300234790958 >Or is it some 'rare' model? No doubt we'll see a flury or these now the >market has picked up. It SCREAMS that it is a fake auction. The winner has 0 votes and was registered on 19th of june. Which - what a curiosity! - was the first day of the auction. No one would be so stupid to pay so much for a scuffed pet. Even because it NEEDS to be collected!!! The seller won't send it in any case. Trust me, the smell isn't good. Greetings from Brazil Alexandre From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Wed Jun 25 17:49:51 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 22:49:51 +0000 Subject: PDP-8 "Introduction to Programming" In-Reply-To: <4862C280.8090101@dunnington.plus.com> References: <47BD2A5E.1030807@gmail.com> <486283E8.9080309@gjcp.net> <4862C280.8090101@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <20080625224951.GB30663@usap.gov> On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 11:11:12PM +0100, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 25/06/2008 18:44, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > > >I've finally dug my copy out... with the Craigmount Secondary > School Library tag in the inside cover ;-) > > I will have used that very copy at some point. I used to work at > Craigmount, and I remember the four -8s they had quite fondly. Andrew > Watt also had an HP2000 system, and later an Apple ][, a very early > Beeb, and after the -8s a couple of -11s. Wow! A school with -8s and -11s?!? All we had in the early-80s was a couple of Trash-80s and an ancient Wang programmable calculator that nobody knew how to get working (all replaced after I left with a room full of DEC Rainbows :-/ ). I did get to play with an -8/L in High School, but it was one I bought myself at Dayton that was just the CPU - no TTY, no *anything* - just lights and switches - quite educational, really. I had some friends who went to a well-funded suburban school that had their own HP1000, and some other friends had a couple of LA-36s with acoustic couplers that dialed into a RSTS machine of some unknown sort, but I think any of us would have been in heaven to have a DEC mini on the premises. *Four* -8s... what kind? Any disk or tape, or just TTYs and papertape? -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 25-Jun-2008 at 22:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -85.4 F (-65.2 C) Windchill -118.2 F (-83.4 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 7.0 kts Grid 95 Barometer 680.4 mb (10613 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From coredump at gifford.co.uk Wed Jun 25 18:29:08 2008 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 00:29:08 +0100 Subject: eBay - What's special about this Pet? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4862D4C4.6070804@gifford.co.uk> John S wrote: > More eBay madness perhaps, these normally go for ?50: > - http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300234790958 > > Or is it some 'rare' model? No doubt we'll see > a flury or these now the market has picked up. It looks just like the one I was trying to get running today. Mine's a 32K DRAM model with the same 9-inch screen as the eBay one. He doesn't give much information about it, though. Not even the proper model number, or the memory size. And the winning bidder is a new user with zero feedback. -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From techplus at knology.net Wed Jun 25 19:19:49 2008 From: techplus at knology.net (techplus) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 20:19:49 -0400 Subject: pdp11 blinkenlights panel In-Reply-To: <624966d60806242108q3904e243kaa73cba64c204227@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200806260026.m5Q0Qje2054705@keith.ezwind.net> I am looking for a bezel for a control panel on a pdp 11/70 Steve -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Anderson Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 12:09 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: pdp11 blinkenlights panel I think I have an 11/70 and a few 11/05 or 11/10 panels somewhere. I am just moving back into my house tonight, and have a 40+ ft pod and 6 26 ft storage units to move in. It might take a while. Paul On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 7:09 PM, David Griffith wrote: > > I was just wondering if anyone here has a pdp11 blinkenlights panel they'd > like to part with. > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? > From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Wed Jun 25 19:42:02 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 00:42:02 +0000 Subject: eBay - What's special about this Pet? In-Reply-To: <4862D4C4.6070804@gifford.co.uk> References: <4862D4C4.6070804@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: <20080626004202.GB21637@usap.gov> On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 12:29:08AM +0100, John Honniball wrote: > John S wrote: > >More eBay madness perhaps, these normally go for ?50: > > - http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300234790958 > > > >Or is it some 'rare' model? No doubt we'll see > > a flury or these now the market has picked up. > > It looks just like the one I was trying to get running today. > Mine's a 32K DRAM model with the same 9-inch screen as the > eBay one. He doesn't give much information about it, though. > Not even the proper model number, or the memory size. Visually (which is all we have to go on, obviously), it resembles my first PET - badged 2001 with a graphic keyboard, mine came with 32K (but was apparently available in 4K, 8K, 16K, and 32K with different types and numbers of DRAMs) and BASIC 2.0. For the Europeans out there, its the same as a 3032. TTL video, not CTRC, so the board is radically different from a 4032, at least in that portion (same I/O, memory, ROM sockets, memory layout, etc.) I would say that it's probably not the most common model, but they still made a bunch of them. _I_ wouldn't pay $800 for one now (but I still have the one I bought new for $1100 in 1979, so I don't have to buy one now ;-) -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 26-Jun-2008 at 00:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -83.9 F (-64.4 C) Windchill -121.1 F (-85.0 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 9.3 kts Grid 82 Barometer 679.6 mb (10643 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Jun 25 23:15:34 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 21:15:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Stuff for trade Message-ID: Here's a list of stuff I can get at right now that I'm offering for trade. Right now I'm hankering for a PDP-11/70 front panel. * Several luggables: Osborne Executive, Compaq 1, Kaypro 10, and perhaps others. Most need work in some way or another. * Lots of S100 cards; I can check for something specific. I know I have a couple video cards left. * Several S100 chassis, some supposedly ready to boot and go. Most of them are "California Computer Systems". There's a Northstar Horizon in there somewhere. * Several 8-inch floppy drives, some in single and dual chassis; others naked. * Lots of lightly-used 8-inch floppies. * A couple metric oodles of S100 docs. If you drive into town I'll stuff your car (or van) with them if you promise to go through them and digitise those that need it. * A Zenith composite monitor. * A tiny (5 inches) IBM composite monitor. * Pieces of an Intel MDS. * An AT&T 3b1 with keyboard and mouse that I like but not enought to really play with it. * A CRT-ish thing the size of a bar fridge that suggests a field-portable radar display. * A big hunk of aluminum with a wheel on it. No idea what it is. Maybe it'll make a nice clock. * Some 5.25" MO disks. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 25 08:37:17 2008 From: john_a_s2004 at hotmail.com (John S) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2008 13:37:17 +0000 Subject: eBay - What's special about this Pet? Message-ID: More eBay madness perhaps, these normally go for ?50: - http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300234790958 Or is it some 'rare' model? No doubt we'll see a flury or these now the market has picked up. Regards, John _________________________________________________________________ Great deals on almost anything at eBay.co.uk. Search, bid, find and win on eBay today! http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/msnnkmgl0010000004ukm/direct/01/ From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Jun 26 01:55:13 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 07:55:13 +0100 Subject: PDP-8 "Introduction to Programming" In-Reply-To: <20080625224951.GB30663@usap.gov> References: <47BD2A5E.1030807@gmail.com> <486283E8.9080309@gjcp.net> <4862C280.8090101@dunnington.plus.com> <20080625224951.GB30663@usap.gov> Message-ID: <48633D51.4090004@dunnington.plus.com> On 25/06/2008 23:49, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 11:11:12PM +0100, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> I will have used that very copy at some point. I used to work at >> Craigmount, and I remember the four -8s they had quite fondly. Andrew >> Watt also had an HP2000 system, and later an Apple ][, a very early >> Beeb, and after the -8s a couple of -11s. > *Four* -8s... what kind? Any disk or tape, or just TTYs and papertape? All the -8s (and the -11s they had after I left) were cast-offs. The father of one of the pupils worked for DEC, and was very friendly with Andrew Watt who was one of the Maths teachers, so that was the source. I remember that the largest one was a PDP-8/E in a dual rack, with a fast paper-tape reader, a couple of RK05s, and a box with extra core. It was connected to a glass teletype of some sort (maybe a Hazeltine) and maybe some other terminal device, and AFAIR ran O/S-8. I think it also has a Decwriter of some sort. It was called EDWARD - Electronic Device With Auxiliary Rotating Discs. The smallest one was an -8/F mounted on a trolley; I can't remember what that used for I/O. Another was an 8/E or maybe 8/F in a cabinet with two (IIRC) TU56s, and had 2,3 or 4 ASR33s at various times because it ran one of the multiuser Edusystems (rather slowly). I can't remember what else there was. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Thu Jun 26 03:35:59 2008 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 10:35:59 +0200 Subject: Sun 3/60 for trade In-Reply-To: <47915.71.139.37.220.1214158115.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> References: <20080622011906.GF3935@eesfc24.engr.ccny.cuny.edu> <47915.71.139.37.220.1214158115.squirrel@ruckus.brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20080626103559.5a718436.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Sun, 22 Jun 2008 11:08:35 -0700 (PDT) "Eric Smith" wrote: > > I have a Sun 3/60 that I would like to trade. My interest is > > uncommon Tektronix stuff, pre-1980. [...] Local pickup only. > No offense intended, but the way I read that is "I have some stuff > that is nearly common as dirt, which I'm not willing to ship, but I'd > like to trade it for some rare and highly prized stuff that someone > else will probably have to ship to me." I suppose there's a small > chance that it might work, but I wouldn't hold my breath. Sun 3 stuff isn't that common as e.g. Sun 4c or 4m machines. This 3/60 has a color framebuffer as it seems and that is rare actually. I think I have seen more Tek storage tube terminals then color 3/60. -- tsch__, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Thu Jun 26 08:39:24 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 13:39:24 +0000 Subject: PDP-8 "Introduction to Programming" In-Reply-To: <48633D51.4090004@dunnington.plus.com> References: <47BD2A5E.1030807@gmail.com> <486283E8.9080309@gjcp.net> <4862C280.8090101@dunnington.plus.com> <20080625224951.GB30663@usap.gov> <48633D51.4090004@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <20080626133924.GA16135@usap.gov> On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 07:55:13AM +0100, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > On 25/06/2008 23:49, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 11:11:12PM +0100, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > >>I will have used that very copy at some point. I used to work at > >>Craigmount, and I remember the four -8s they had quite fondly. Andrew > >>Watt also had an HP2000 system, and later an Apple ][, a very early > >>Beeb, and after the -8s a couple of -11s. > > >*Four* -8s... what kind? Any disk or tape, or just TTYs and papertape? > > All the -8s (and the -11s they had after I left) were cast-offs. The > father of one of the pupils worked for DEC, and was very friendly with > Andrew Watt who was one of the Maths teachers, so that was the source. Ah... very handy having a patron like that. Columbus only ever had a small sales and field-service office, and for a short time, a walk-in-Digital store for ribbons, diskettes, floor models, etc. Perhaps Dayton schoolkids had a better crack at castoffs that we had. > I remember that the largest one was a PDP-8/E in a dual rack, with a > fast paper-tape reader, a couple of RK05s, and a box with extra core. > It was connected to a glass teletype of some sort (maybe a Hazeltine) > and maybe some other terminal device, and AFAIR ran O/S-8. I think it > also has a Decwriter of some sort. It was called EDWARD - Electronic > Device With Auxiliary Rotating Discs. Nice. Sounds quite a bit larger than my -8/e now. > The smallest one was an -8/F mounted on a trolley; I can't remember what > that used for I/O. Another was an 8/E or maybe 8/F in a cabinet with > two (IIRC) TU56s, and had 2,3 or 4 ASR33s at various times because it > ran one of the multiuser Edusystems (rather slowly). I can't remember > what else there was. Also nice in its own way. Certainly fun to watch the tape spin as the Edusystem wheezed along. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 26-Jun-2008 at 12:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -91.5 F (-68.6 C) Windchill -119.5 F (-84.2 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 4.8 kts Grid 92 Barometer 676.2 mb (10772 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Jun 26 10:32:26 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 08:32:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DEC VT100 vs. VT102 - what differences are there? Message-ID: <995453.99007.qm@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I was wondering, what are the differences between the VT100 and the VT102? I've never seen a VT102, but I have heard that there were some differences having to do with screen editing. Anyone know? Similarly, does the VT102 hardware differ from the VT100, or is it just a software change? -Ian From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Jun 26 11:29:31 2008 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2008 09:29:31 -0700 Subject: DEC VT100 vs. VT102 - what differences are there? In-Reply-To: <995453.99007.qm@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <995453.99007.qm@web52708.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90806260929od7ca96fm2de44549739d14e3@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 8:32 AM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > I was wondering, what are the differences between the VT100 and the VT1