From rws at ripco.com Fri Aug 1 08:46:53 2008 From: rws at ripco.com (Richard Schauer) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 08:46:53 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Cool IBM System/34 -- was: Cool 1983 IBM System/36 system needs a home! In-Reply-To: References: <4DA352C8-3A7F-4974-BD5A-D9EBE9DF660A@mac.com> <4890E6BF.60401@nktelco.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 31 Jul 2008, Julian Wolfe wrote: > It's a cute machine, but IMO not worth the time and aggrivation it entails, > especially if you have no idea how to operate it. I think it's also > three-phase, if I'm not mistaken. You're mistaken. I have a 5340 and the 3262 printers and 8809 tape drives to go with it, and it's all single-phase 110 or 220 (unless modified to 208, check first!) The current consumption isn't really much more than a 5360, one of which sits next to my 5340. A fair bit of the draw is in the hard drives; some were equipped with 2, some with all 4 like mine. Even with 4 it's not bad, only 1500 watts or so (for the 5340 only). A microwave or space heater draws that. As far as its size- it makes a nice mantle for the living room??? :-) I've slept on top of mine once. Richard Schauer From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Aug 1 17:39:31 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2008 15:39:31 -0700 Subject: Cool IBM System/34 -- was: Cool 1983 IBM System/36 system needs a home! In-Reply-To: References: <4DA352C8-3A7F-4974-BD5A-D9EBE9DF660A@mac.com> <4890E6BF.60401@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <489390A3.6060701@brouhaha.com> Julian Wolfe wrote about a System/34: > I'd take something like this, if it wasn't so damn heavy and massive. > It's the predecessor to the AS/400 if you didn't know that. The AS/400 is much more closely related to the System/38 than the System/34. Eric From segin2005 at gmail.com Fri Aug 1 21:35:43 2008 From: segin2005 at gmail.com (Segin Noname) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 22:35:43 -0400 Subject: segmented memory models Message-ID: <5a4d65ae0808011935s5b52d3ejd4b87f10e792e00b@mail.gmail.com> Note: This was written at a eariler date than mailed. This is due to the fact I personally do not have a net connection and read email whenever and however I find a unsecure IEEE 802.11g "Wi-fi" access point. As of such, I ask that would someone please be so kind as to compile all relevant replies to this email into a digest and email that to me, as at the last time I checked my email, I had over thirty thousand unread email messages (30,069 to be exact) from over the last 20 months or more and I am simply too lazy to junk them all -- it's a GMail account and the ratio of incoming daily mail to storage growth is low enough that accumulating email appears to be a non-issue, even with 3 very high volume mailing lists subscribed; wine-dev, cctalk, and I think LKML. (Normally, I sort this all out using a rather ad-hoc set of regexp filters in Thunderbird) My question is rather perplexing. When most people refer to segmented memory, AFAIK, they mean banked memory systems, where each segment is like a piece of paper, that is, seperate from each other. On the contrary, the Intel 8086's segmented memory model is like lessing some source code and using the terminal arrow keys or K/L to move the display one line; given segment X, segment X+1 contains almost all of the memory of segment x, except for a new line of 16 bytes (which the metaphor between a new line in 'less' and the segment differential is rather ironic; most hex editors I have seen display exactly 16 bytes of data per line) The question is, is the Intel 8086's memory model brain-damaged? IMHO, extremely much so. From trixter at oldskool.org Fri Aug 1 22:10:34 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2008 22:10:34 -0500 Subject: segmented memory models In-Reply-To: <5a4d65ae0808011935s5b52d3ejd4b87f10e792e00b@mail.gmail.com> References: <5a4d65ae0808011935s5b52d3ejd4b87f10e792e00b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4893D02A.10608@oldskool.org> Segin Noname wrote: > Note: This was written at a eariler date than mailed. > This is due to the fact I personally do not have a net connection > and read email whenever and however I find a unsecure IEEE 802.11g > "Wi-fi" access point. As of such, I ask that would someone please be > so kind as to compile all relevant replies to this email into a digest > and email that to me, as at the last time I checked my email, I had > over thirty thousand unread email messages (30,069 to be exact) from > over the last 20 months or more and I am simply too lazy to junk them Then you're clearly not interested in an answer. Sorry, but my time is too valuable to handle *your* email problems. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From john at guntersville.net Fri Aug 1 22:23:12 2008 From: john at guntersville.net (John C. Ellingboe) Date: Fri, 01 Aug 2008 22:23:12 -0500 Subject: Major House Cleaning In-Reply-To: <483C4FD4.5060306@guntersville.net> References: <483C4FD4.5060306@guntersville.net> Message-ID: <4893D320.3020105@guntersville.net> Next week the paper will start going to recycle unless someone picks it up. > > A lot of VMS gray wall books > A lot of VMS orange wall books > A lot of component (IC, diode, transistor) manufacture's data books From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 1 22:47:02 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 1 Aug 2008 20:47:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: segmented memory models In-Reply-To: <5a4d65ae0808011935s5b52d3ejd4b87f10e792e00b@mail.gmail.com> References: <5a4d65ae0808011935s5b52d3ejd4b87f10e792e00b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080801203549.B73788@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 1 Aug 2008, Segin Noname wrote: > The question is, is the Intel 8086's memory model brain-damaged? IMHO, > extremely much so. It is a base and offset set of pointers. There are other systems that I much prefer, such as a 32 bit flat addressing scheme, but that would have required a BIGGER kludge for intel to have kludged it onto their processors that were built around 16 bit address bus. There is a long term trade-off between new design elegance v compatability with the 4 bit predecessors. You are welcome to pick whatever kind of system that you like. Whether or not it is "brain-damaged" is an issue of whether it performs as intended, NOT whether that is yours or my favorite way of doing it. Base and offset segmentation is NOT my favorite, but it is a valid possibility for some types of systems. Saying that it is "brain-damaged" is on a par with declaring big-endian (or little-endian) to be "brain-damaged". -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Sat Aug 2 03:58:37 2008 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2008 01:58:37 -0700 Subject: Major House Cleaning References: <483C4FD4.5060306@guntersville.net> <4893D320.3020105@guntersville.net> Message-ID: <001501c8f47d$f3db1610$0301a8c0@hal9000> Physically located where ???? Best regards, Steven Subject: Re: Major House Cleaning > Next week the paper will start going to recycle unless someone picks it up. > > > > > A lot of VMS gray wall books > > A lot of VMS orange wall books > > A lot of component (IC, diode, transistor) manufacture's data books From john at guntersville.net Sat Aug 2 07:22:54 2008 From: john at guntersville.net (John C. Ellingboe) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2008 07:22:54 -0500 Subject: Major House Cleaning In-Reply-To: <001501c8f47d$f3db1610$0301a8c0@hal9000> References: <483C4FD4.5060306@guntersville.net> <4893D320.3020105@guntersville.net> <001501c8f47d$f3db1610$0301a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <4894519E.4080004@guntersville.net> Guntersville, Al U. S. A. 35976 Scanning wrote: > Physically located where ???? > > Best regards, Steven > > > Subject: Re: Major House Cleaning > > > >>Next week the paper will start going to recycle unless someone picks it > > up. > >>>A lot of VMS gray wall books >>>A lot of VMS orange wall books >>>A lot of component (IC, diode, transistor) manufacture's data books > > > > . > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 2 10:57:15 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2008 08:57:15 -0700 Subject: segmented memory models In-Reply-To: <20080801203549.B73788@shell.lmi.net> References: <5a4d65ae0808011935s5b52d3ejd4b87f10e792e00b@mail.gmail.com>, <20080801203549.B73788@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4894216B.10725.598279@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Aug 2008 at 20:47, Fred Cisin wrote: > It is a base and offset set of pointers. There are other systems that I > much prefer, such as a 32 bit flat addressing scheme, but that would have > required a BIGGER kludge for intel to have kludged it onto their > processors that were built around 16 bit address bus. It seems to me that Intel was attempting to solve two problems with the 16-byte segment + offset addressing. The first, and likely most important in Intel's mind was to afford addressing of more than 64K bytes. The second was to give some sort of location-independent facility for addressing code and data. Recall that in the 808x, all addresses are absolute, with on-the-fly relocation a reall PITA. The 8086 gives one the capability of position-independent code and data, at least to a granularity of 16 bytes. The downside is that when addressing a structure of more than 64K in size, address computation gets a little too involved for my taste. I think that a couple of special-purpose segment+offset arithmetic instructions might have helped quite a bit. Intel certainly could have used its segment registers as 64KByte- sized address pointers, but then the relocatability aspect would have suffered at the expense of simpler segment arithmetic. I think it's important to keep perspective here. The 8086 dates from 1978, only a year after the 8085. It was never intended to be the end result of 16-bit development at Intel, but a placeholder until the 432 "micromini" could be deployed. Moto deployed the 6809 a year later in a similar role-filling mode, the difference being that the 68K was a winning design, where the 432 fell on its face, leaving Intel with the x86. Back around 1977, there was a lot of chatter about "16 bitters". One of the big issues for systems designers was the company behind the chip. National was horrible in terms of support (PACE). TI (TMS9900) wasn't much better. GI seemed to be disintrerested in its CPU (CP1600). DG didn't want to talk to people who might compete with it (MicroNOVA) and Fairchild was loathe to admit that it even sold the 9440. All of the above suffered from one problem--64K address space size. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Aug 2 12:09:45 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2008 11:09:45 -0600 Subject: segmented memory models In-Reply-To: <4894216B.10725.598279@cclist.sydex.com> References: <5a4d65ae0808011935s5b52d3ejd4b87f10e792e00b@mail.gmail.com>, <20080801203549.B73788@shell.lmi.net> <4894216B.10725.598279@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <489494D9.60008@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Back around 1977, there was a lot of chatter about "16 bitters". One > of the big issues for systems designers was the company behind the > chip. National was horrible in terms of support (PACE). TI > (TMS9900) wasn't much better. GI seemed to be disintrerested in its > CPU (CP1600). DG didn't want to talk to people who might compete with > it (MicroNOVA) and Fairchild was loathe to admit that it even sold > the 9440. All of the above suffered from one problem--64K address > space size. > > Lets not forget Dec did not have the 'home' computer idea at all unlike the *PC*. I am now building a PC clone is seems again as I want a 12/24 bit cpu using bit slice components from about that same era ... 1978 ish. I am asumming 512x8 proms were out by then. 16Kb x 1 drams was normal memory size of memory chips. 512Kb of memory addressing is planned in hindsight as compared to 256Kb (18 bits) as what could have been planed had this computer been designed in the 70's. The only thing I have done is made the memory cycle speed .666 us ( .333us) access time with wait states for the last two (4K) pages of memory. This gives me the best of both worlds ... slow I/O and 150ns memory chips for a clock speed faster than a PC .8 us. In this era of megabyte memory chips is is easy to forget the memory sizes that could be put on a printed circuit card. > Cheers, > Chuck PS. I download a intel memory data book from bitsavers from 1973 ( note more memory databooks could be usefull) and marveled of the small rack of 1mega-bit memory made from 1kx1 drams compared to core of the same size. From derschjo at msu.edu Fri Aug 1 01:00:14 2008 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 2008 23:00:14 -0700 Subject: Can anyone identify this 9-track drive? In-Reply-To: <4890799F.2040501@dunnington.plus.com> References: <488F9E66.3000600@msu.edu> <200807301308.m6UD8TS5028198@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <000601c8f249$79d0a370$2101a8c0@finans> <4890799F.2040501@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <4892A66E.9080606@msu.edu> After looking through the manuals on Bitsavers it definitely is an M4 drive. Still not sure precisely what model, it's not a 9914, though the SCSI board is definitely very similar. Thanks for the pointers! Josh Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 30/07/2008 14:37, Nico de Jong wrote: > >> Sorry, but I dont agree. The 34xx series do not have a plastic cover >> between >> the lid and the drive mechanism. The H and W sizes dont match either, >> but >> the correspond to the M4 drive > > I'm with Nico. It's definitely an M4 Data drive. I have a very > similar model (a 9900), and it looks almost exactly like the > pictures. Mine does 1600bpi and 3200bpi; 800bpi needs an extra card > which I don't have (and the M4 guys told me that not all the head > assemblies they used are good for 800bpi/NRZ anyway). Mine has two > connectors for a Pertec interface, no SCSI, and connects to a QBus > controller on one of my 11/73s. > From vpmmviii at prevelakis.net Sat Aug 2 03:38:54 2008 From: vpmmviii at prevelakis.net (Vassilis Prevelakis) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2008 04:38:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Discovering How Greeks Computed in 100 B.C Message-ID: <200808020838.m728cs2x001423@caladan-columbia.cs.columbia.edu> For a more technical description of the mechanism you can also check: The Antikythera Mechanism: a Computer Science Perspective by Diomidis Spinellis at http://www.dmst.aueb.gr/dds/pubs/jrnl/2008-Computer-Antikythera/html/Spi08d.htm Regards **vp From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Aug 2 13:46:15 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2008 11:46:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Discovering How Greeks Computed in 100 B.C In-Reply-To: <200808020838.m728cs2x001423@caladan-columbia.cs.columbia.edu> References: <200808020838.m728cs2x001423@caladan-columbia.cs.columbia.edu> Message-ID: <20080802113817.F97439@shell.lmi.net> On Sat, 2 Aug 2008, Vassilis Prevelakis wrote: > For a more technical description of the mechanism you can also check: > The Antikythera Mechanism: a Computer Science Perspective > by Diomidis Spinellis > at > http://www.dmst.aueb.gr/dds/pubs/jrnl/2008-Computer-Antikythera/html/Spi08d.htm In the news Thursday, . . . They've deciphered enough of the inscriptions to find that the calibrations include the timings of the Greek Olympics. While not a big deal in itself, it implies that it was NOT entirely a scientific instrument, that it was also intended for some more social PDA uses. http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jU7fJrgvGExUWTrCXBVupod791KwD928EIB80http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5jU7fJrgvGExUWTrCXBVupod791KwD928EIB80 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7533457.stm http://www.reuters.com/article/scienceNews/idUSL06431620080731 Hmmmm. How long before they figure out that it was used for odds-making by bookies? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Aug 2 15:41:03 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2008 21:41:03 +0100 (BST) Subject: segmented memory models In-Reply-To: <20080801203549.B73788@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 1, 8 08:47:02 pm Message-ID: > You are welcome to pick whatever kind of system that you like. Whether or > not it is "brain-damaged" is an issue of whether it performs as intended, > NOT whether that is yours or my favorite way of doing it. No, I disagree with you there. To me, if something doesn;t perform as intended/as docuemnted, then it's brokem. But if that intention/documentation is, shall we say, silly, then it's brain dead (even though it performs according to that documentation). A hardware example is the active-high edge-triggered interrupts on the ISA bus. The system performs as intended (by the designers), it behaves as documetned (in the IBM TechRefs). But IMHO it's still brain-dead in that, to save one cheap TTL chip, we had IRQ conflict problems for many years... -tony From pat at computer-refuge.org Sat Aug 2 16:23:16 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2008 17:23:16 -0400 Subject: Stuff available in Lafayette, IN Message-ID: <200808021723.16608.pat@computer-refuge.org> I've got the following machines available, cheap for pickup in downtown Lafayette, IN, I'm asking for $10 each. I do not have the time to ship this, or drop it off anywhere. These will be scrapped in 2 weeks if they're not picked up by then. Aspect 3000 NMR vector computer (about 8U tall rackmount). Sun E4000 chassis, empty (2) Sun E450 (some parts in them, but not a full config) (2) Sun Ray 100, 17" CRT. Brand new, I have some keyboards and mice (7) Cisco 7000 router, including EIP, AIP, FIP, and fast serial cards. (2) Intel MDX 8" Hard disk drive AT&T 5620 terminal. No keyboards. (6) Motorola Information Systems 6300 (rebadged convergent) 68k UNIX system AT&T 3B2/310, probably needs a new hard drive (2) AT&T 6300, HDD and FDD. No keyboard or monitor AT&T 6300, 2 FDD. No keyboard or monitor Apollo Domain 3500. No keyboard/mouse or monitor. Untested SGI Octane (2) DEC AlphaServer 4100 Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Aug 2 19:18:44 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2008 17:18:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: segmented memory models In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080802164919.L6454@shell.lmi.net> > > You are welcome to pick whatever kind of system that you like. Whether or > > not it is "brain-damaged" is an issue of whether it performs as intended, > > NOT whether that is yours or my favorite way of doing it. On Sat, 2 Aug 2008, Tony Duell wrote: > No, I disagree with you there. > To me, if something doesn;t perform as intended/as docuemnted, then it's > brokem. But if that intention/documentation is, shall we say, silly, then > it's brain dead (even though it performs according to that documentation). > A hardware example is the active-high edge-triggered interrupts on the > ISA bus. The system performs as intended (by the designers), it behaves > as documetned (in the IBM TechRefs). But IMHO it's still brain-dead in > that, to save one cheap TTL chip, we had IRQ conflict problems for many > years... Ah, a matter of semantics. They didn't INTEND to have IRQ conflicts, and thought that they could get away with cutting that corner, possibly through a gross underestimate of how much use the bus would get. I consider that to be working "as designed", not "as intended". But, there is no question that mistakes happen, and that design decision sure seems to be one. I also don't understand the reasoning behind the mode switching in the 80286. Back to the OP, . . . I don't see the segmented architecture as a mistake, but as a successful attempt to do something that in the long term may have been of questionable value. In the short term, it sure made porting software from CP/M easy. Lisa and Mac software took a while to develop, but the PC was inundated with software immediately. It seemed like it took longer to edit and reprint the manuals than to port the software. Similar to the OP, I've even heard programmers declare it to be a bug that overflowing an offset register doesn't increment the high nibble of the segment register! Were either the 5150 or the 8086 architecture intended to last until 1990? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 2 20:39:40 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2008 18:39:40 -0700 Subject: segmented memory models In-Reply-To: <20080802164919.L6454@shell.lmi.net> References: , <20080802164919.L6454@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <4894A9EC.24162.26EB50D@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Aug 2008 at 17:18, Fred Cisin wrote: > Were either the 5150 or the 8086 architecture intended to last until 1990? I don't think the 8086 was intended to last until 1983. I can remember asking our Intel sales engineer about using the 8086 sometime around 1979. His response was to wait for the Real Deal-- the iAPX432/8800. At about that time, we were starting to get early data and then steppings of the 80186 and decided to use that chip instead of the 8086, the '186 being more advanced and faster than the 8086. We included a socket for the 80286, even though real working (i.e. protected mode running) software (Xenix) wasn't ready by any stretch at the time (the port of Xenix to the 80286 was a joint Microsoft/Intel deal, with Intel doing the kernel work). Both the 80186 and 80286 were ceramic LCC package and ran at 6 MHz. What was surprising is that no IBM PC product ever used the 80186. I recall a bug in the early 186 steppings that damned near drove me nuts (or maybe it actually did). We'd have a system running that would seemingly crash at random every other day or so. Being an early stepping, there was no ICE for the thing and with the on-chip peripherals, there weren't a lot of places to hang a logic analyzer. You'd write some diagnostic code and it'd run flawlessly for a week. Eventually, it turned out that what was happening was that the SI and DI registers would get clobbered by DMA activity. After much lost hair, we discovered the problem, and phoned the Intel application engineer assigned to the 80186. He told us, that yup, they knew about it--had for a week. Just never bothered to tell anyone about it. A month out of my life that I don't miss at all. If you haven't yet, by all means research the 432--the architecture is about as far from the 8080/8086 family as one could get. Perhaps a picture of what the PC (at least the advanced models) might have been. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Aug 2 21:37:26 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2008 19:37:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: segmented memory models In-Reply-To: <4894A9EC.24162.26EB50D@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <20080802164919.L6454@shell.lmi.net> <4894A9EC.24162.26EB50D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20080802193618.W11507@shell.lmi.net> > Eventually, it turned out that what was happening was that the SI > and DI registers would get clobbered by DMA activity. After much . . . and there was the clobbering of CX with multiple prefixes to MOVS From tosteve at yahoo.com Sat Aug 2 21:46:38 2008 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2008 19:46:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: TEST - do not read. Message-ID: <688810.47675.qm@web51602.mail.re2.yahoo.com> I told you not to. From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Aug 2 23:01:04 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2008 00:01:04 -0400 Subject: Apple GS II power supply In-Reply-To: <000c01c8f321$dbb54720$2101a8c0@finans> References: <000c01c8f321$dbb54720$2101a8c0@finans> Message-ID: <200808030001.04270.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 31 July 2008 11:26, Nico de Jong wrote: > Hi all > > Would anyone be interested in an Apple GS II powersupply? It is made by > Astec, odl AA13591, and features +5V at 4.0 Amp, +12V at 2.5 Amp, and > 0,25Afor -5 and-12V > > The unit is for 230V, 50/60 Hz. I'd be real surprised if it weren't switchable, though I suppose some were made that weren't. I have a IIgs in a box stored away, and haven't gotten into it yet, so I don't recall whether there's a voltage selector switch or similar in there. Some of the supplies I recall (including some Astec) used a wire jumper instead. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From frustum at pacbell.net Sat Aug 2 23:04:56 2008 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2008 23:04:56 -0500 Subject: segmented memory models In-Reply-To: <4894A9EC.24162.26EB50D@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <20080802164919.L6454@shell.lmi.net> <4894A9EC.24162.26EB50D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <48952E68.3030900@pacbell.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: ... > If you haven't yet, by all means research the 432--the architecture > is about as far from the 8080/8086 family as one could get. Perhaps > a picture of what the PC (at least the advanced models) might have > been. I'm surprised that the intel specs for it haven't been scanned and put online somewhere. Just about all other intel databooks have made it online, so I don't know why the 432 is exempt. Or maybe I'm just not looking hard enough. I have no real need to see it; just passing curiosity. The list's Eric Smith appears to have the most comprehensive webpage about the 432: http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/intel/iapx432/ but even it doesn't contain the datasheets and manuals -- just the names of all the data sheets and manuals that are known. From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Aug 2 23:11:39 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2008 00:11:39 -0400 Subject: segmented memory models In-Reply-To: <4894A9EC.24162.26EB50D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20080802164919.L6454@shell.lmi.net> <4894A9EC.24162.26EB50D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200808030011.39668.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 02 August 2008 21:39, Chuck Guzis wrote: > What was surprising is that no IBM PC product ever used the 80186. I seem to recall something about the use of "reserved" interrupts or similar that was the reason behind that -- apparently somebody (m$?) used 'em anyhow, making the '186 not an option. I do remember seeing a small number of '186 machines out there, but they never did seem to get any traction. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 3 00:31:14 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2008 22:31:14 -0700 Subject: segmented memory models In-Reply-To: <200808030011.39668.rtellason@verizon.net> References: , <4894A9EC.24162.26EB50D@cclist.sydex.com>, <200808030011.39668.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4894E032.613.342B5DB@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Aug 2008 at 0:11, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > I seem to recall something about the use of "reserved" interrupts or similar > that was the reason behind that -- apparently somebody (m$?) used 'em anyhow, > making the '186 not an option. Right from the beginning, Intel reserved interrupt types 0-31 (decimal), with 0-4 having defined functions on the 8086/88. The 186 used 5 for a bounds exception (BOUND instruction), 6 for unused opcode exception (useful!), and 7 for ESC opcodes if enabled. The DMA controllers used 10 and 11 for signalling TC; and the timers used 8, 18, and 19. External interrupts (INT0-INT3 pins) were mapped to 12-15. Of course, neither the DMA controllers nor the timers were anything like the 8237 or 8254 from a programming standpoint. It seems to me that someone used the 80186 in 8086 compatibility mode with the traditional 82xx support devices to maintain compatibility (Tandy 2000?). The 80186 was quite a bit faster than the 8086 for the same clock speed. It was the 80C188 that seemed to find all sorts of applications in the embedded world. It was available in several variations, including with an on-chip UART. Cheers, Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Aug 3 00:47:13 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2008 22:47:13 -0700 Subject: segmented memory models In-Reply-To: <200808030011.39668.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <20080802164919.L6454@shell.lmi.net> <4894A9EC.24162.26EB50D@cclist.sydex.com> <200808030011.39668.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: > From: rtellason at verizon.net > > On Saturday 02 August 2008 21:39, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> What was surprising is that no IBM PC product ever used the 80186. > > I seem to recall something about the use of "reserved" interrupts or similar > that was the reason behind that -- apparently somebody (m$?) used 'em anyhow, > making the '186 not an option. > The 186 was really intended as a controller. It was an 86 instruction to simplify coding in languages that were developed for the 86. It had a few enhaced functions. Memory mapping saved external hardware. As I recall, it had a serial port as well. This made it good for embedded Forths. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Reveal your inner athlete and share it with friends on Windows Live. http://revealyourinnerathlete.windowslive.com?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WLYIA_whichathlete_us From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Aug 2 14:21:29 2008 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2008 15:21:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: segmented memory models In-Reply-To: <20080801203549.B73788@shell.lmi.net> References: <5a4d65ae0808011935s5b52d3ejd4b87f10e792e00b@mail.gmail.com> <20080801203549.B73788@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200808021929.PAA09558@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > You are welcome to pick whatever kind of system that you like. > Whether or not it is "brain-damaged" is an issue of whether it > performs as intended, This is not how I have learned to use "brain-damaged". A cretinous design, implemented perfectly, is still cretinous. Whether a segmented architecture such as the 8086's *is* brain-damaged is a separate issue; as you point out, this depends on the intended use. (For general-purpose computing, I am inclined to say it is, but that's orthogonal to my principal point here.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk Sat Aug 2 15:48:22 2008 From: andyh at andyh-rayleigh.freeserve.co.uk (Andy Holt) Date: Sat, 2 Aug 2008 21:48:22 +0100 Subject: segmented memory models In-Reply-To: <4894216B.10725.598279@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Is it possible that when designing the 8086, it's architect already had in mind the 286? In that processor the segments are capable of implementing a Multics-style OS. [that would assume the 8086 was a "quick hack" to tide Intel over until the technology for better chips existed] And at that time the coming dominance of Unix-derived OS's (or of Microsoft) was not as obvious as we now may think with 20-20 hindsight. Andy From nico at farumdata.dk Sun Aug 3 06:11:30 2008 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2008 13:11:30 +0200 Subject: Apple GS II power supply References: <000c01c8f321$dbb54720$2101a8c0@finans> <200808030001.04270.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <000e01c8f559$aeb23c30$2101a8c0@finans> > On Thursday 31 July 2008 11:26, Nico de Jong wrote: > > Hi all > > > > Would anyone be interested in an Apple GS II powersupply? It is made by > > Astec, odl AA13591, and features +5V at 4.0 Amp, +12V at 2.5 Amp, and > > 0,25Afor -5 and-12V > > > > The unit is for 230V, 50/60 Hz. > > I'd be real surprised if it weren't switchable, though I suppose some were > made that weren't. I have a IIgs in a box stored away, and haven't gotten > into it yet, so I don't recall whether there's a voltage selector switch or > similar in there. Some of the supplies I recall (including some Astec) used > a wire jumper instead. > There is neither a voltage selector switch nor a jumper. I'm skating on thin ice now, but logic tells me that the power supply is a bastard meant for European use, as (1) there is room above the AC input connector to mount a switch, and (2) there is a cut-out for a fan, but the size of the circuit board prohibits the mounting of a fan. Nico From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Aug 3 12:16:43 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2008 18:16:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: segmented memory models In-Reply-To: <20080802164919.L6454@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 2, 8 05:18:44 pm Message-ID: > > > > You are welcome to pick whatever kind of system that you like. Whether or > > > not it is "brain-damaged" is an issue of whether it performs as intended, > > > NOT whether that is yours or my favorite way of doing it. > > On Sat, 2 Aug 2008, Tony Duell wrote: > > No, I disagree with you there. > > To me, if something doesn;t perform as intended/as docuemnted, then it's > > brokem. But if that intention/documentation is, shall we say, silly, then > > it's brain dead (even though it performs according to that documentation). > > A hardware example is the active-high edge-triggered interrupts on the > > ISA bus. The system performs as intended (by the designers), it behaves > > as documetned (in the IBM TechRefs). But IMHO it's still brain-dead in > > that, to save one cheap TTL chip, we had IRQ conflict problems for many > > years... > > Ah, a matter of semantics. > They didn't INTEND to have IRQ conflicts, and thought that they could get Of course not. And IMHO one common expression of 'brain damage' is when the design omitted to ccosider soemthing that later became a major issue. > away with cutting that corner, possibly through a gross underestimate of > how much use the bus would get. It actually might not have been much of a problem with the original 5150. That had 5 slots, of which one was taken by the video card (probably no IRQ line used, the MDA card, could, IIRC, use an IRQ line for the printer port, but interrupts on the printer ports were not that important anyway...). The original IBM expansion cards didn't, IIRC, ever use more than 1 IRQ line each, so with only 5 sloits there were enough IRQ lines to go round. On the other had, with the PC/XT (8 slots) or the expansion cabinet, it became much more of the problem. And that's aonother expression of 'brain dead'. Not allowing for (sensible) future expansion. > > I consider that to be working "as designed", not "as intended". > YEs, the IBM PC iuterrupt system works as designed. And, IMHO, as intended by the designer. I still consider it to be brain dead, though. Another example of a brain-dead design, IMHO, is the 80286's behaviour on reset. As I understand the history : The 8080 started executing at location 0 on reset . Therefore, the the original Intel 8080 development system had RAM at location 0. This machine had a hardware front panel so you could write a JMP instruction into said RAM at location 0 to jump to whatever program you wanted to run. Therefore a large number of programs (including CP/M, of course) were written assuming RAM at location 0. On machines without a front panel and/or machine aimed at the end user, you needed a small amount of extra hardware to either force a JMP ontto the data bus after reset, or to have ROM mapped at location 0 after a reset that was switvhed out (and replaced by RAM) adter the CPU had jumped to a rotuine near the top of memory The 8086/8088, however, tried to get round this problem by starting to execute a program at location FFFF:0 on reset. IMHO this doesn't help things at all, the original problem was due to a fixed location where the CPU started executing after a reset, not where that location was in the memory map But the 80286 starts executing at location 0FFFF0 on reset too, even though it has a 24 bit adress bus. That is, somewhere in the middle of the address space. Neither at the very start, or near the top. That, on a machine without a true MMU, is brain-dead IMHO. It lead, of course, to the 'A20 gate' in the PC/AT, etc. And what maces the design worse is that the problem had been considered (and correctly solved) before. On the PDP11, the top part of the address space was used for I/O devices. And it was the top part on all PDP11s, whether they had 16, 18, or 22 bit addressing. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 3 12:51:22 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2008 10:51:22 -0700 Subject: segmented memory models In-Reply-To: References: <4894216B.10725.598279@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <48958DAA.23856.45ACEF@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Aug 2008 at 21:48, Andy Holt wrote: > Is it possible that when designing the 8086, it's architect already > had in mind the 286? In that processor the segments are capable of > implementing a Multics-style OS. [that would assume the 8086 was a > "quick hack" to tide Intel over until the technology for better chips > existed] It wouldn't surprise me that an 80286-like chip was on the drawing board when the 8086 was launched. Intel tended to think pretty far ahead back then. Indeed, the 432 had segments. > And at that time the coming dominance of Unix-derived OS's (or of > Microsoft) was not as obvious as we now may think with 20-20 hindsight. Multics-derived OSes weren't the only game in town using protection schemes back then. When the 8086 was launched, OS memory protection was very much current thinking, just as OOP and message-passing OSes were current mainstream thought when the 432 was designed. An earlier comment was made about "home PCs" not being seen when the first generation of 16-bit chips were deployed. That may have been true, but "business computers" were very much part of mainstream thought. Chip manufacturers could look at the success of the likes of the DEC and DG minis and easily see where the future was pointed. I do recall that the Intel rep did say that the 432 was designed as an Ada machine. That may have been speculation on the part of marketing type, but it demonstrates where the thinking was. What's ironic to me is that the i960 RISC processor arose out of the ashes of the very-very-CISC 432. From one extreme to the other. Another curiosity was the interesting game thatSiemens was playing. Around 1978 they paired up with AMD to form a joint venture called "American Micro Computers" or AMC to develop a support base for the Z8000. When that flopped, they tried the same approach with Intel a few years later with a joint venture, called BiiN to develop a support base for the i960, which ultimately flopped. I have some AMC manuals, but no BiiN paper. Does anyone own any of the development system hardware produced by either AMC or BiiN? It should be pretty rare. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 3 13:02:29 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2008 11:02:29 -0700 Subject: segmented memory models In-Reply-To: References: <20080802164919.L6454@shell.lmi.net> from "Fred Cisin" at Aug 2, 8 05:18:44 pm, Message-ID: <48959045.4515.4FD854@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Aug 2008 at 18:16, Tony Duell wrote: > But the 80286 starts executing at location 0FFFF0 on reset too, even > though it has a 24 bit adress bus. That is, somewhere in the middle of > the address space. Neither at the very start, or near the top. That, on a > machine without a true MMU, is brain-dead IMHO. It lead, of course, to > the 'A20 gate' in the PC/AT, etc. Think about it--it makes sense from Intel's point of view. They get a CPU that boots in real mode with a memory map identical to that of the 8086. Software interrupts still vector to low memory, the reset jump is at the top of addressable memory. When you enter protected mode, the memory layout is pretty much immaterial. The jump to 0FFFF0 does not preclude using "shadowing" any more than it does to put the jump to 00000. Remember that the 80286 was intended as a product-line filler for the 808x line and probably intended to be (from everything I've read) the last member of the family. To me, the huge break in the family philosophy is represented by the 80386; essentially implementing not only real mode, but TWO protected- memory management architectures. You may have exchanged your horse for a car, but you've still got a buggy whip and feedbag, just in case. Cheers, Chuck From slawmaster at gmail.com Sun Aug 3 13:09:17 2008 From: slawmaster at gmail.com (John Floren) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2008 14:09:17 -0400 Subject: IBM Powerstation 320h Message-ID: <7d3530220808031109u4c211cd6xe96dff49e73c2fe2@mail.gmail.com> A friend of mine told me he just got an IBM Powerstation 320h system and wants to know if I want it, but I can't seem to find any information on it. Anybody here got some typical specs and/or opinions on the computer? Thanks John -- Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Aug 3 13:28:48 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2008 11:28:48 -0700 Subject: segmented memory models In-Reply-To: <48958DAA.23856.45ACEF@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4894216B.10725.598279@cclist.sydex.com>, <48958DAA.23856.45ACEF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4895F8E0.9070300@brouhaha.com> Chuck wrote: > I do recall that the Intel rep did say that the 432 was designed as > an Ada machine. That may have been speculation on the part of > marketing type, but it demonstrates where the thinking was. It was a "retcon". When the key aspects of the 8800 architecture (which became the 432) were developed, HOLWG hadn't even yet narrowed the competition from four languages down to two. It's more a matter that when the Green proposal was chosen in mid-1979, it happened to be a moderately good fit for the 432 architecture. Since the DoD was backing it, the expectation was that Ada would become very popular. The first high-level language Intel shipped to 432 customers actually was not Ada, but rather a Smalltalk dialect called OPL ("Object Programming Language"), derived from Rosetta Smalltalk. The Rosetta Inc. web site apparently went away within the last year. Eric From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Aug 3 13:55:16 2008 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2008 13:55:16 -0500 Subject: IBM Powerstation 320h In-Reply-To: <7d3530220808031109u4c211cd6xe96dff49e73c2fe2@mail.gmail.com> References: <7d3530220808031109u4c211cd6xe96dff49e73c2fe2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4895FF14.60507@mdrconsult.com> John Floren wrote: > A friend of mine told me he just got an IBM Powerstation 320h system > and wants to know if I want it, but I can't seem to find any > information on it. Anybody here got some typical specs and/or opinions > on the computer? It's a variant of the 7012-320 - IBM's first desktop POWER system. IBM didn't publish MHz specs then, but suffice it to say that the thing is *slow*. It'll run AIX 5.1, if you like pain, but v4.3 or even v3.2 is much more its speed. No pun intended. One detail of note: try to get the key with it. That lock not only keeps the case closed but determines the boot mode. It's also a DAMNED GOOD lock - not likely you'll pick it with a pocket-knife. If you have to drill it out, plan to replace it with a 3-pos rotary switch. Doc From pat at computer-refuge.org Sun Aug 3 16:02:47 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2008 17:02:47 -0400 Subject: IBM Powerstation 320h In-Reply-To: <4895FF14.60507@mdrconsult.com> References: <7d3530220808031109u4c211cd6xe96dff49e73c2fe2@mail.gmail.com> <4895FF14.60507@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <200808031702.47595.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 03 August 2008, Doc Shipley wrote: > John Floren wrote: > > A friend of mine told me he just got an IBM Powerstation 320h > > system and wants to know if I want it, but I can't seem to find any > > information on it. Anybody here got some typical specs and/or > > opinions on the computer? > > It's a variant of the 7012-320 - IBM's first desktop POWER system. > IBM didn't publish MHz specs then, but suffice it to say that the > thing is *slow*. It'll run AIX 5.1, if you like pain, but v4.3 or > even v3.2 is much more its speed. No pun intended. Actually, they did publish the clock speed. According to my copy of the IBM RS/6000 price list from Sept 21, 1993, the 7012-32H was withdrawn on 8/18/93, had a list price of $11,750, and a CPU speed of 25MHz. It's one of the slowest RS/6000 systems that IBM ever produced. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From silent700 at gmail.com Sun Aug 3 17:37:49 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2008 17:37:49 -0500 Subject: Offer: Mac Color Classic box Message-ID: <51ea77730808031537j13304d23rb28cf1cda1899c86@mail.gmail.com> That's right, just the box - the cardboard kind. This one's for the hardcore MacHeads out there. I've got a CC, which I'm keeping, and never had any packing materials, books, etc., but somehow I ended up with the box. It's in reasonably good shape, with various shipping/store labels on it, but not torn or stained. If anyone wants it, I can flatten it, put a label on it and send it USPS or whatever your favorite carrier is. Otherwise, out it goes... j -- silent700.blogspot.com Retrocomputing and collecting in the Chicago area: http://chiclassiccomp.org From brain at jbrain.com Sun Aug 3 21:57:50 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2008 21:57:50 -0500 Subject: segmented memory models In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4896702E.6050002@jbrain.com> Tony Duell wrote: > And IMHO one common expression of 'brain damage' is when the design > omitted to ccosider soemthing that later became a major issue. > Do you design for a living? If so, then my hat is off to you for thinking of *EVERY POSSIBLE* use of the design you have made. I design for a living, and I think you're asking way too much of a designer. The best designers plan for the stated requirements and try to consider the long term, but they are not prophets. I think subjecting the designers choices to things that came much later is ludicrous. And on the RAM at $0000 issue, I think that is simply Intel and the PC environment responding to bad choices that people made. Intel 8080 designers no doubt assumed (as the MOS folks did), that startup vectors would be in ROM. The Development Board chose RAM + switches to offer some flexibility, which is to be expected. That CP/M and later systems assumed RAM at $0 can't be blamed on Intel. The fact that they later tried to fix the issue by moving the jump table to the top segment seems to me to be reacting to the "status quo", not creating a bad design. CPUs need to fetch vectors from a fixed address. Anywhere you put them will offend someone. I think Intel putting them at the bottom sounds like a fine design, at least in the '70s. 'C' and it's desire to have address 0 be NULL was not around on the micros, and putting it at the bottom alleviated the need to keep moving it as the "top" of memory keeps moving up. > And what maces the design worse is that the problem had been considered > (and correctly solved) before. On the PDP11, the top part of the address > space was used for I/O devices. And it was the top part on all PDP11s, > whether they had 16, 18, or 22 bit addressing. > I don't think I would call that a correct design. It forces all programs to treat all IO as relative addresses, since they will move as the design moves. If there are processing penalties for relative addressing, you've sealed the programmer's fate. It was a good choice for minicomputers, as they specced out multiple addressing options for various levels of the market, and programmers all designed with that in mind. How was Intel to know the 8080 would sell as well as a DEC CPU? Applying the accumulated knowledge of history to attack a designer who did not have access to that knowledge is bad form, in my opinion. For the record, I despise the segmented architecture of the 8086, but I truly understand and appreciate the pains the designer went to allow porting of 8080 apps (I think porting might be too much to call it, I think a simple assemble would do the trick, as the 8080 assumed a 64kB address space, which is the same as one segment. Why the overlapped is unclear to me, but I wouldn't call that a bug. And, I admit that I despise the segments only because I didn't care about the 8080, and thus compatibility with it was not on my radar. I reserve "brain damaged" for something that does not satisfy requirements available at time of design, or were blatantly obvious at design time, or shows a clear lack of ingenuity or creativity on the designer's part, and cannot be explained away by compatibility concerns or reactive pressures (designing something in because, in spite of the best efforts to document that people not do it, they do anyway) Jim From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Aug 3 22:20:35 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2008 23:20:35 -0400 Subject: IBM Powerstation 320h In-Reply-To: <7d3530220808031109u4c211cd6xe96dff49e73c2fe2@mail.gmail.com> References: <7d3530220808031109u4c211cd6xe96dff49e73c2fe2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48967583.6030709@gmail.com> John Floren wrote: > A friend of mine told me he just got an IBM Powerstation 320h system > and wants to know if I want it, but I can't seem to find any > information on it. Anybody here got some typical specs and/or opinions > on the computer? 25MHz POWER. Will run everything up to AIX 5.1 slowly, if memory serves. Four 32-bit Microchannel slots. Basically the fastest member of the first generation of RS/6000s. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Aug 3 22:22:48 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2008 23:22:48 -0400 Subject: IBM Powerstation 320h In-Reply-To: <200808031702.47595.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <7d3530220808031109u4c211cd6xe96dff49e73c2fe2@mail.gmail.com> <4895FF14.60507@mdrconsult.com> <200808031702.47595.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <48967608.7060108@gmail.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Sunday 03 August 2008, Doc Shipley wrote: >> John Floren wrote: >>> A friend of mine told me he just got an IBM Powerstation 320h >>> system and wants to know if I want it, but I can't seem to find any >>> information on it. Anybody here got some typical specs and/or >>> opinions on the computer? >> It's a variant of the 7012-320 - IBM's first desktop POWER system. >> IBM didn't publish MHz specs then, but suffice it to say that the >> thing is *slow*. It'll run AIX 5.1, if you like pain, but v4.3 or >> even v3.2 is much more its speed. No pun intended. > > Actually, they did publish the clock speed. According to my copy of the > IBM RS/6000 price list from Sept 21, 1993, the 7012-32H was withdrawn > on 8/18/93, had a list price of $11,750, and a CPU speed of 25MHz. > > It's one of the slowest RS/6000 systems that IBM ever produced. But it was reasonably high-end when it came out. It's a pretty early machine. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Aug 3 22:28:14 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2008 23:28:14 -0400 Subject: segmented memory models In-Reply-To: <4896702E.6050002@jbrain.com> References: <4896702E.6050002@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4896774E.9060002@gmail.com> Jim Brain wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: >> And IMHO one common expression of 'brain damage' is when the design >> omitted to ccosider soemthing that later became a major issue. >> > Do you design for a living? If so, then my hat is off to you for > thinking of *EVERY POSSIBLE* use of the design you have made. I design > for a living, and I think you're asking way too much of a designer. The > best designers plan for the stated requirements and try to consider the > long term, but they are not prophets. I do design for a living, and, although your point regarding being unable to predict the future with perfect accuracy rings true, I would argue that prototypes really help with getting the really big screw-ups out of your designs. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 3 23:19:59 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2008 21:19:59 -0700 Subject: segmented memory models In-Reply-To: <4896774E.9060002@gmail.com> References: , <4896702E.6050002@jbrain.com>, <4896774E.9060002@gmail.com> Message-ID: <489620FF.21030.2852BB4@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Aug 2008 at 23:28, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I do design for a living, and, although your point regarding being > unable to predict the future with perfect accuracy rings true, I would > argue that prototypes really help with getting the really big screw-ups > out of your designs. I consider neither the reset vector nor the segmentation feature of the 80x86 to be a design screw-up, but rather a design decision. Regardless of the technical quibbling, it works. Real screw-ups are the "you can't get there from here" sort--where there are no good work-arounds and the problem prevents customers from getting useful work done. Sometimes, this stems from a misunderstanding of the customer's needs. For example, on the 80286, I can imagine an engineer saying to himself "Once you've entered protected mode, why would you *want* to go back to real mode?" Hence, the really weird kludge using the keyboard controller to reset the CPU into real mode on the PC AT. Without the then-undocumented LOADALL instruction, protected-mode Windows may have been delayed until the 80386. Quel horreur! Cheers, Chuck From brain at jbrain.com Sun Aug 3 23:30:23 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2008 23:30:23 -0500 Subject: segmented memory models In-Reply-To: <4896774E.9060002@gmail.com> References: <4896702E.6050002@jbrain.com> <4896774E.9060002@gmail.com> Message-ID: <489685DF.4040000@jbrain.com> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Jim Brain wrote: >> Tony Duell wrote: >>> And IMHO one common expression of 'brain damage' is when the design >>> omitted to ccosider soemthing that later became a major issue. >>> >> Do you design for a living? If so, then my hat is off to you for >> thinking of *EVERY POSSIBLE* use of the design you have made. I >> design for a living, and I think you're asking way too much of a >> designer. The best designers plan for the stated requirements and >> try to consider the long term, but they are not prophets. > > I do design for a living, and, although your point regarding being > unable to predict the future with perfect accuracy rings true, I would > argue that prototypes really help with getting the really big > screw-ups out of your designs. > > Peace... Sridhar I can't argue that. Are you stating, though, that the 8080 or 8086 design did not go through a prototype stage? I would rebut (only slightly) that I find it is getting harder to do a "prototype" design. Customers want it right the first time, there's no time or budget for a "prototype", and it cna be hard to simulate a new design to the degree needed to ensure all of the issues are resolved. Luckily, new designs ararely break a ton of new ground, and costs of raw materials are much less now, so it's easier to hedge your bets by designing in some backup plans for a worst case scenario. To keep things on topic, I find the CBM 1351 mouse design serves as a good example of my point. Long after the C64 had been introduced, it was still a good seller, and Berkely Softworks had managed to put a GUI on it in the name of GEOS. A clever chunk of code, no matter your impression of GUIs in general. While I never found the tool all that exciting from a user point of view, the developer in me marveled at the functionality they crammed into 64kB and 320x200 and 170kB disks. Still, a UI needs a mouse, and the C64 was not designed for one. If we take Tony's perspective, we know that Xerox was doing GUI and mouse-driven UI work ong before the 64 came out, so some might argue that the 64 design should have included a mouse port (heck, we coudl argue that for all PCs, but I digress). I don't take that view. Still, CBM engineers looked at their options for adding a mouse to the 64. The obvious candidates were the soft 1200 bps uart on the user port, but that would preclude telecomm apps. An expansion card option with a proper uart was another path, but multi-slot expansion cards were not the norm then, and GEOS already effectively needed the expansion slot for the RAM expansion unit (REU). The cassette port could work, but the engineers no doubt kept coming back to the joystick port, as they is the normal location for non-KB input device installation. Hmmm, 5 IO pins and 2 8-bit ADCs are all they had to work with. Other designs used the analog pins for absolute positioning, but that made pixel-level positioning impossible. Clearly, some relative positioning approach was needed, and the design should minimize the use of the digital IO, since the joystick port IO was shared with the KB (one port are the low 5 bits of the KB columns, the other is the 5 low bits of the KB rows). In order to satisfy all of the business requirements (use no other ports, > 8 bit positioning, minimize digital IO usage), they came up with a clever (in my opinion) approach. They designed an IC that kept two digital counters (X and Y) and then translated the low 6 bits of the counters on the two POT lines. Instead of trying to generate a variable resistance (that would require tuning and other such things), they took advantage of the known properties of the SID POT lines. The lines work by counting the discharge of a cap to a preset reference value over a 256 cycle period. Further, then end the cycle by clamping the POT line to ground for 256 cycles. So, the design implemented was: Watch the POT line for the line to drop to ground. Wait 256 cycles wait another 256 - (low 6 bits of internal counter)*2 bring line high for (low 6 bits of internal counter)*2 cycles repeat This process ensured the line was always high at the end of the 512 cycle period in order to see the next clamp to ground event. The *2 took care of the inherent jitter of the design (PAL 64s ran a bit slower than 1MHz, NTSC a bit above, the ASIC in the mouse ran at 1MHz exactly, so the low bit of the SID POT line would jitter. Thus, the programmer would take the low 7 bits, lsr, and then have the counter value modulo 64. A bit of additional work on the programmer's side and overflow could be handled as well. The top bit was left off because the design relied on a small resistance on the ADC line to allow the ASIC to drive the line high but still see the low clamp event. Thus, there was no way to reach above 250 or so on the scale, and the design was much simpler if just 6 effective bits were used. Now, looking at it one way, the design is awful, as it abuses so many things. On the other hand, I find it an elegant solution to the problem at hand. Many 1351 mice were sold because they were easy to understand, reliable, and easy to install/remove. Jim From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Aug 4 00:19:41 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2008 01:19:41 -0400 Subject: segmented memory models In-Reply-To: <4896702E.6050002@jbrain.com> References: <4896702E.6050002@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <200808040119.41372.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 03 August 2008 22:57, Jim Brain wrote: > CPUs need to fetch vectors from a fixed address. Anywhere you put them > will offend someone. I think Intel putting them at the bottom sounds > like a fine design, at least in the '70s. 'C' and it's desire to have > address 0 be NULL was not around on the micros, and putting it at the > bottom alleviated the need to keep moving it as the "top" of memory > keeps moving up. Since that's also where the system goes on reset, I don't see a problem with using that address as a null pointer, as long as it's going to get tested before it gets dereferenced. :-) I'm a little curious about all those restart instructions, anyhow, and why I never saw any real use of them much. I seem to recall one of them being used for a debugger and that was about it. Then there's the extra ones you get with the 8085. Anybody know of other uses for those? > > And what maces the design worse is that the problem had been considered > > (and correctly solved) before. On the PDP11, the top part of the address > > space was used for I/O devices. And it was the top part on all PDP11s, > > whether they had 16, 18, or 22 bit addressing. > > I don't think I would call that a correct design. It forces all > programs to treat all IO as relative addresses, since they will move as > the design moves. If there are processing penalties for relative > addressing, you've sealed the programmer's fate. Not all programs, though. The operating system, I'd think, and drivers for specific devices. Not likely applications. Or were they handling their own I/O? (Snip) > For the record, I despise the segmented architecture of the 8086, I've found it distasteful enough to not want to ever really have to deal with it. I was doing assembly language programming under CP/M, but once it started to sink in that I was going to be dealing with other chips with that nonsense, I shifted my interest to c instead, and don't think I'd care to deal with anything lower-level than that. And even in c under DOS you had to worry about different memory models and similar nonsense. > but I truly understand and appreciate the pains the designer went to allow > porting of 8080 apps (I think porting might be too much to call it, I > think a simple assemble would do the trick, as the 8080 assumed a 64kB > address space, which is the same as one segment. Why the overlapped is > unclear to me, but I wouldn't call that a bug. And, I admit that I > despise the segments only because I didn't care about the 8080, and thus > compatibility with it was not on my radar. I found the 8080 (but more so the z80) to be of some interest, but porting all existing apps to newer chips never made all that much sense to me, considering the other differences besides the CPU chip. More available RAM, a lot more standardization of system architecture, a lot more common standard hardware, and all sorts of other stuff. It was no surprise to me at all to see lots and lots of newer apps and I don't recall seeing all that much that got ported over, or at least not that much that I knew about. And yet that backward compatibility seems to have been an issue for a lot of the designers for some reason. > I reserve "brain damaged" for something that does not satisfy > requirements available at time of design, or were blatantly obvious at > design time, or shows a clear lack of ingenuity or creativity on the > designer's part, and cannot be explained away by compatibility concerns > or reactive pressures (designing something in because, in spite of the > best efforts to document that people not do it, they do anyway) > > Jim -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sun Aug 3 13:06:47 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2008 11:06:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Stuff available in Lafayette, IN In-Reply-To: <200808021723.16608.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <949708.17458.qm@web65511.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> I'm not sure what an Intel MDX 8" hard drive is (maybe I should just Google it!), but it sounds Multibus-ish. If anyone can do me for a favor, and pick it up, I'll be there best friend. And pay the shipping charges + the 10$ of course :) Contact me first though, if you have the intention. Prior to going through w/it that is. --- On Sat, 8/2/08, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > From: Patrick Finnegan > Subject: Stuff available in Lafayette, IN > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" , rescue at sunhelp.org > Date: Saturday, August 2, 2008, 5:23 PM > I've got the following machines available, cheap for > pickup in downtown > Lafayette, IN, I'm asking for $10 each. I do not have > the time to ship > this, or drop it off anywhere. These will be scrapped in 2 > weeks if > they're not picked up by then. > > Aspect 3000 NMR vector computer (about 8U tall rackmount). > > Sun E4000 chassis, empty (2) > > Sun E450 (some parts in them, but not a full config) (2) > > Sun Ray 100, 17" CRT. Brand new, I have some > keyboards and mice (7) > > Cisco 7000 router, including EIP, AIP, FIP, and fast serial > cards. > (2) > > Intel MDX 8" Hard disk drive > > AT&T 5620 terminal. No keyboards. (6) > > Motorola Information Systems 6300 (rebadged convergent) 68k > UNIX system > > AT&T 3B2/310, probably needs a new hard drive (2) > > AT&T 6300, HDD and FDD. No keyboard or monitor > > AT&T 6300, 2 FDD. No keyboard or monitor > > Apollo Domain 3500. No keyboard/mouse or monitor. > Untested > > SGI Octane (2) > > DEC AlphaServer 4100 > > Pat > -- > Purdue University Research Computing --- > http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ > The Computer Refuge --- > http://computer-refuge.org From snhirsch at gmail.com Sun Aug 3 14:39:35 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2008 15:39:35 -0400 (EDT) Subject: HP64000 System, Books, Software available Message-ID: With a heavy heart and ever-diminishing storage space, I'm going to part with my HP64000 development system. This is a soup-to-nuts setup including: - HP64000 desktop unit (all-in-one w/ keyboard and floppy drives) - External HPIB hard disk (from an HP9000, i.e. physically small) - CPU Pods for 68000, 68010, Z80, 8085, 8088 and 8051. I do not have the interface boards for everything and have never used them. Some look to be brand new. - More interface and emulation boards (for internal card frame) than I know what to do with. Spares for just about everything. - Several EPROM programmer adapters (mount in main system unit). - Tape drive mechanism (internal mount, was replaced by diskette drives) - Two 4ft. shelves full of manuals - hardware and software - Complete cross-assembler and cross-compiler software for every 1978-1982 CPU you have ever heard of and perhaps some you haven't. Probably 2-3 linear feet of 5-1/4" diskettes, most the original distribution media. The last time I fired it up, the main unit worked fine. It boots from the attached HPIB drive and was able to access the floppy drives without error. I won't even consider shipping it, you will need to pick it up in Burlington, VT and must take everything with you. Note that I haven't mentioned price. That's because there isn't any. Terms are simple: Free to the first person who makes arrangements with me for pickup and appears at my door. Steve -- From jws at jwsss.com Mon Aug 4 00:14:19 2008 From: jws at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2008 22:14:19 -0700 Subject: IBM Powerstation 320h In-Reply-To: <48967608.7060108@gmail.com> References: <7d3530220808031109u4c211cd6xe96dff49e73c2fe2@mail.gmail.com> <4895FF14.60507@mdrconsult.com> <200808031702.47595.pat@computer-refuge.org> <48967608.7060108@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4896902B.2060603@jwsss.com> be sure to ask for cables too. the serial cables are the same as RT ones, but are not Dsub cables. also whatever passes for video would be good. you should be able to use ps2 mouse and kb if you dont get those though. You can start and run this completely serially, with no video, so don't pass on it for that reason. not a real fun way to run it, but it will run aix via serial just fine. jim Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> On Sunday 03 August 2008, Doc Shipley wrote: >>> John Floren wrote: >>>> A friend of mine told me he just got an IBM Powerstation 320h >>>> system and wants to know if I want it, but I can't seem to find any >>>> information on it. Anybody here got some typical specs and/or >>>> opinions on the computer? >>> It's a variant of the 7012-320 - IBM's first desktop POWER system. >>> IBM didn't publish MHz specs then, but suffice it to say that the >>> thing is *slow*. It'll run AIX 5.1, if you like pain, but v4.3 or >>> even v3.2 is much more its speed. No pun intended. >> >> Actually, they did publish the clock speed. According to my copy of >> the IBM RS/6000 price list from Sept 21, 1993, the 7012-32H was >> withdrawn on 8/18/93, had a list price of $11,750, and a CPU speed of >> 25MHz. >> >> It's one of the slowest RS/6000 systems that IBM ever produced. > > But it was reasonably high-end when it came out. It's a pretty early > machine. > > Peace... Sridhar > > From brain at jbrain.com Mon Aug 4 00:56:42 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2008 00:56:42 -0500 Subject: segmented memory models In-Reply-To: <200808040119.41372.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <4896702E.6050002@jbrain.com> <200808040119.41372.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <48969A1A.2050708@jbrain.com> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Sunday 03 August 2008 22:57, Jim Brain wrote: > > specific devices. Not likely applications. Or were they handling their own > I/O? > I think, at the time in Intel history, I would not fault the designer for assuming there was no OS or there was no guarantee an OS would be calling the shots. I'm not sure of who was first (MOS, Moto, Intel, others), but I know the 6502 did not assume an OS, and I think the 8080 was a bit older than the 6502. > I found the 8080 (but more so the z80) to be of some interest, but porting > all existing apps to newer chips never made all that much sense to me, > considering the other differences besides the CPU chip. More available RAM, > a lot more standardization of system architecture, a lot more common > standard hardware, and all sorts of other stuff. It was no surprise to me > at all to see lots and lots of newer apps and I don't recall seeing all that > much that got ported over, or at least not that much that I knew about. And > yet that backward compatibility seems to have been an issue for a lot of the > designers for some reason. > Even today, when we design a new X, it's very important to ensure that X is backwards compatible with X-1, even though we are sure that few will care. I would go so far as to label designs that were not backwards compatible (without good reasons) with the moniker we're discussing here. Note that the designer ensuring backwards compatibility is not the same as encouraging it. Still, it's drilled into a designer's head. Don't break compatibility unless there a *VERY* good reason. Jim From g-wright at att.net Mon Aug 4 01:15:25 2008 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2008 06:15:25 +0000 Subject: AT&T 3B1 Unix PC In-Reply-To: <485A8FBE.9050103@tdh.com> Message-ID: <080420080615.7078.48969E7C000414EE00001BA622243322829B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> Hi Michael, Did you figure out what you needed to do here ?? I can use some of these items - Thanks, jerry -------------- Original message from Michael Lee : -------------- > Anyone collect and/or need parts to the AT&T Unix PC? I've got a pile > of systems I dismantled over a decade ago, and don't really want or know > how to put back together. I bought them "new" as surplus by the pallet > at the time, and about half of them were defective with only displaying > horizontal lines when turned on. The monitors are perfect, I also have > the 20Mb MFM drives and 5.25" drives, as well as the mainboards, > plastics etc. I'm not sure exactly how many and what I have yet, but > checking for interest here. Please reply if these are of interest at all. > > Any suggestions on the line problem? > > Mike Lee From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 4 01:47:36 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2008 23:47:36 -0700 Subject: segmented memory models In-Reply-To: <200808040119.41372.rtellason@verizon.net> References: , <4896702E.6050002@jbrain.com>, <200808040119.41372.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <48964398.22281.30C4E7C@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Aug 2008 at 1:19, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > I'm a little curious about all those restart instructions, anyhow, and why I > never saw any real use of them much. I seem to recall one of them being used > for a debugger and that was about it. Then there's the extra ones you get > with the 8085. Anybody know of other uses for those? There aren't any "extra" RST instructions for the 8085, just new vectors. Recall that the 8085 has several external interrupt pins (IRQ 5.5, 6.5 and 7.5), which simply simulate calls to locations 002C, 0034 and 003C respectively. One early use for the RST instructions was before the day of the 8259 PIC. You could implement a rudimentary vectored interrupt scheme with a priority encoder and a buffer to gate a 1-byte RST instruction as part of the interrupt acknowledge protocol. Note that the RST instruction takes the form 11nnn111, where nnn is the "number" of the RST. A hangover from the 8008, whose RST was encoded 00nnn101. Cheers, Chuck From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Aug 4 07:42:57 2008 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2008 08:42:57 -0400 Subject: Old computers available In-Reply-To: <200807281038.13149.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <60255.1217184499@dls.net> <200807281038.13149.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4896F951.9080101@compsys.to> >Roy J. Tellason wrote: >>On Sunday 27 July 2008 14:48, Bradley Slavik wrote: > > >>Dear CC readers, >> >>I have decided to divest myself of a number of older computers. >>Some may be interesting to folks on the list. I live near Chicago, >>items can be picked up for free. Only item I may sell are the >>Q-Bus SCSI cards, the rest is available for free. >> >> > >I'd tried to reply to this offlist, but for some reason it bounced... > >Dang, I'd be interersted in some of this stuff, but I'm not anywhere near >you and don't know how much I could afford to spend on shipping, even if >that were an option. > Jerome Fine replies: I am in Toronto, so a drive to Chicago is not really an option. The DEC hardware is of great interest. Is any still available? Is shipping possible? >>MicroVax II >>Two KZQSA Q-Bus SCSI cards ($$$ make offer) >>Maxtor 190MB hard drive >>DEC RD53A drive >>TK50 tape drive >>TK70 tape drive >> >> I missed the original post, so I don't have an address to send to off-line. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From dbetz at xlisper.com Mon Aug 4 08:26:42 2008 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 09:26:42 -0400 Subject: Free PDP-11 Stuff in Bedford, NH Message-ID: <1A8C77B1-3C55-4623-9A15-831635FD534F@xlisper.com> I have a "PDP-11" that is actually a box (BA-23) that used to contain a MicroVAX I. I replaced the MVI boards with the following modules: M8190 KDJ11-B M7551-CF 4MB memory M7504 ethernet adapter M7555 RQDX3 hard/floppy controller M8043 DLV11-J 4 line serial It also contains the following drives: RX50 two 5.25" floppy drives RD54 159MB hard drive It seems to work. I was able to get RT-11 installed on the hard drive and the system boots to a prompt. I haven't played with it much since then though. I also have a bunch of other Q-Bus modules including a KDF11 CPU and some other memory and I/O boards as well as a few spare drives. Is anyone interested in coming to pick this stuff up? David From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Aug 4 08:43:35 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 08:43:35 -0500 Subject: Old computers available In-Reply-To: <4896F951.9080101@compsys.to> References: <60255.1217184499@dls.net> <200807281038.13149.rtellason@verizon.net> <4896F951.9080101@compsys.to> Message-ID: <51ea77730808040643g1a78a405p1c7cc69170948c34@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 7:42 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > I am in Toronto, so a drive to Chicago is not really an option. The DEC > hardware is > of great interest. Is any still available? Is shipping possible? The DEC stuff is gone. However, if anyone wants the big IBM box(es)...... From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Aug 4 08:59:23 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 06:59:23 -0700 Subject: segmented memory models In-Reply-To: <48964398.22281.30C4E7C@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <4896702E.6050002@jbrain.com>, <200808040119.41372.rtellason@verizon.net> <48964398.22281.30C4E7C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: cclist at sydex.com > > On 4 Aug 2008 at 1:19, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >> I'm a little curious about all those restart instructions, anyhow, and why I >> never saw any real use of them much. I seem to recall one of them being used >> for a debugger and that was about it. Then there's the extra ones you get >> with the 8085. Anybody know of other uses for those? > > There aren't any "extra" RST instructions for the 8085, just new > vectors. Recall that the 8085 has several external interrupt pins > (IRQ 5.5, 6.5 and 7.5), which simply simulate calls to locations > 002C, 0034 and 003C respectively. > > One early use for the RST instructions was before the day of the 8259 > PIC. You could implement a rudimentary vectored interrupt scheme > with a priority encoder and a buffer to gate a 1-byte RST instruction > as part of the interrupt acknowledge protocol. Note that the RST > instruction takes the form 11nnn111, where nnn is the "number" of the > RST. A hangover from the 8008, whose RST was encoded 00nnn101. > > Cheers, > Chuck > Hi RST's were useful to start up an output interupt as well. Depending on hardware, these might not self start. One needed a first output to start things. By using the same vector, one didn't need to duplicate code. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Your PC, mobile phone, and online services work together like never before. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/108587394/direct/01/ From bob at jfcl.com Mon Aug 4 11:04:08 2008 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 09:04:08 -0700 Subject: Faceplate or floor stand for DS20E Message-ID: <006401c8f64b$ba325520$2e96ff60$@com> I got one of Guy's AlphaServers - it's actually a rack mounted DS20E that's working fine (thanks, Guy) but unfortunately all of them were missing their faceplates. I know it's a long shot, but does anybody have a faceplate for a DS20/DS20E, or better yet a set of the floor pedestal skins, that they'd part with? Thanks, Bob Armstrong From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Aug 4 11:23:30 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2008 12:23:30 -0400 Subject: HP64000 System, Books, Software available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200808041223.30999.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 03 August 2008 15:39, Steven Hirsch wrote: (Snip) > I won't even consider shipping it, you will need to pick it up in > Burlington, VT and must take everything with you. > > Note that I haven't mentioned price. That's because there isn't any. > Terms are simple: Free to the first person who makes arrangements with me > for pickup and appears at my door. *sigh* Wishing my truck would get done at the body shop and that I had a bunch of spare cash to go and get this thing... Sounds pretty nifty, for sure! :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From James at jdfogg.com Mon Aug 4 12:30:26 2008 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 13:30:26 -0400 Subject: Free PDP-11 Stuff in Bedford, NH Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A922141@sbs.jdfogg.com> > I have a "PDP-11" that is actually a box (BA-23) that used to contain > a MicroVAX I. I replaced the MVI boards with the following modules: > > M8190 KDJ11-B > M7551-CF 4MB memory > M7504 ethernet adapter > M7555 RQDX3 hard/floppy controller > M8043 DLV11-J 4 line serial > > It also contains the following drives: > > RX50 two 5.25" floppy drives > RD54 159MB hard drive > > It seems to work. I was able to get RT-11 installed on the hard drive > and the system boots to a prompt. I haven't played with it much since > then though. > > I also have a bunch of other Q-Bus modules including a KDF11 CPU and > some other memory and I/O boards as well as a few spare drives. > > Is anyone interested in coming to pick this stuff up? I'm very interested. I have a PDP-11/23, RL02's VT52's and a DECWriter. I'm always interested in related DEC PDP equipment. I'm located in Wilmot NH (outside New London). From dbetz at xlisper.com Mon Aug 4 12:38:35 2008 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 13:38:35 -0400 Subject: Free PDP-11 Stuff in Bedford, NH In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A922141@sbs.jdfogg.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A922141@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <4AB5AAF5-1F09-40AC-AAC2-3ED206FCA941@xlisper.com> James, When could you come by to pick it up? Thanks, David On Aug 4, 2008, at 1:30 PM, James Fogg wrote: >> I have a "PDP-11" that is actually a box (BA-23) that used to contain >> a MicroVAX I. I replaced the MVI boards with the following modules: >> >> M8190 KDJ11-B >> M7551-CF 4MB memory >> M7504 ethernet adapter >> M7555 RQDX3 hard/floppy controller >> M8043 DLV11-J 4 line serial >> >> It also contains the following drives: >> >> RX50 two 5.25" floppy drives >> RD54 159MB hard drive >> >> It seems to work. I was able to get RT-11 installed on the hard drive >> and the system boots to a prompt. I haven't played with it much since >> then though. >> >> I also have a bunch of other Q-Bus modules including a KDF11 CPU and >> some other memory and I/O boards as well as a few spare drives. >> >> Is anyone interested in coming to pick this stuff up? > > > I'm very interested. I have a PDP-11/23, RL02's VT52's and a > DECWriter. > I'm always interested in related DEC PDP equipment. I'm located in > Wilmot NH (outside New London). > > > From dbetz at xlisper.com Mon Aug 4 12:44:32 2008 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 13:44:32 -0400 Subject: Free PDP-11 Stuff in Bedford, NH In-Reply-To: <4AB5AAF5-1F09-40AC-AAC2-3ED206FCA941@xlisper.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A922141@sbs.jdfogg.com> <4AB5AAF5-1F09-40AC-AAC2-3ED206FCA941@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <7E512879-E99F-41F7-97E2-3E8478D6EABE@xlisper.com> > James, > > When could you come by to pick it up? > > Thanks, > David Sorry! I intended this to be a private message. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 4 13:54:25 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 19:54:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: segmented memory models In-Reply-To: <4896702E.6050002@jbrain.com> from "Jim Brain" at Aug 3, 8 09:57:50 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > And IMHO one common expression of 'brain damage' is when the design > > omitted to ccosider soemthing that later became a major issue. > > > Do you design for a living? If so, then my hat is off to you for Alas, as is well known, I don't design for a living. I wish I did... However, I have done so in the past. I am also not arrogant enough to suggest that my designs were ever perfect. I am quite sure I've made my fair share of brain-dead decisions. > thinking of *EVERY POSSIBLE* use of the design you have made. I design I think that;'s going a bit far.... I don't consider that the Z80 is brain-dead because it only has a 16 bit address bus, for all 64K is nowhere near enough memory for a personal computer now. 16 bit address was a reasonable choice at the time. I do consider the IBM PC interrupt system to be brain dead because -- It lead to major problems later on -- The 'correct way to do it' was well-known by every electronic engineer worth his NaCL, and had been used in many previous machines. -- The 'cost' to do it right was 1 or 2 inexpensive ICs. > for a living, and I think you're asking way too much of a designer. The IMHO part of being a designer is thinking how the design could be used (other than its originally-intended use), > best designers plan for the stated requirements and try to consider the > long term, but they are not prophets. > > I think subjecting the designers choices to things that came much later > is ludicrous. > > And on the RAM at $0000 issue, I think that is simply Intel and the PC > environment responding to bad choices that people made. Intel 8080 > designers no doubt assumed (as the MOS folks did), that startup vectors > would be in ROM. The Development Board chose RAM + switches to offer > some flexibility, which is to be expected. That CP/M and later systems > assumed RAM at $0 can't be blamed on Intel. The fact that they later Agreed, and nor do I blame it on Intel. > tried to fix the issue by moving the jump table to the top segment seems The poiont is that that fixed nothing. The issue, IMHO, was not caused by _where_ the procesor started execuding on rest. > to me to be reacting to the "status quo", not creating a bad design. > > CPUs need to fetch vectors from a fixed address. Anywhere you put them This is not a $deity-given requirement. For example, after a reset, the CPU could 3-state the address bus, assert an extra output pin (or assert a normally-unused combination of pins, for example Rd and Wr asserted at the same time), and then read in the location to start executing from on the address pins. I know of no commericla processor which did it this way, but it's certainly possible. Whether it's a sensible thing to do is another matter. > will offend someone. I think Intel putting them at the bottom sounds > like a fine design, at least in the '70s. 'C' and it's desire to have > address 0 be NULL was not around on the micros, and putting it at the I wasn't aware that this was a requirement of C, or any other language. > bottom alleviated the need to keep moving it as the "top" of memory > keeps moving up. > > > And what maces the design worse is that the problem had been considered > > (and correctly solved) before. On the PDP11, the top part of the address > > space was used for I/O devices. And it was the top part on all PDP11s, > > whether they had 16, 18, or 22 bit addressing. > > > I don't think I would call that a correct design. It forces all > programs to treat all IO as relative addresses, since they will move as No it doesn't, given that a PDP11 address to a program is always 16 bits. The 18 or 22 bit phuysicall addresses were created by the MMU. > the design moves. If there are processing penalties for relative > addressing, you've sealed the programmer's fate. > > It was a good choice for minicomputers, as they specced out multiple > addressing options for various levels of the market, and programmers all > designed with that in mind. How was Intel to know the 8080 would sell > as well as a DEC CPU? The issue here was witht he 80286 .vs. the 8086. Not the 8080. It was clear the 8088 had sold very well (IBM and all that :-)), it was likely the 80286 would sell well as well. -tony From brain at jbrain.com Mon Aug 4 15:21:48 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2008 15:21:48 -0500 Subject: segmented memory models In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <489764DC.1060407@jbrain.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > This is not a $deity-given requirement. For example, after a reset, the > CPU could 3-state the address bus, assert an extra output pin (or assert > a normally-unused combination of pins, for example Rd and Wr asserted at > the same time), and then read in the location to start executing from on > the address pins. I know of no commericla processor which did it this > way, but it's certainly possible. Whether it's a sensible thing to do is > another matter. > Today I would agree, but when the 8086 was designed, CPU real estate was very expensive, and I seriously doubt such a "fluff" feature would have made it to tapeout. > I wasn't aware that this was a requirement of C, or any other language. > If someone deferenced (void*)0, most systems like to return something (or preferably, trap the access and throw an exception). If you deref NULL, I think many implementations return 0. > No it doesn't, given that a PDP11 address to a program is always 16 bits. > The 18 or 22 bit phuysicall addresses were created by the MMU. > Did an MMU exist for the 8086? > > > The issue here was witht he 80286 .vs. the 8086. Not the 8080. It was > clear the 8088 had sold very well (IBM and all that :-)), it was likely > the 80286 would sell well as well. > I'm not sure I follow. I thought you argued moving the vectors to $ffff:0000 was bad, but I believe that was done on the 8086. By the time the 286 was designed, backwards compatibility mandated the reset vectors stay in the same place, even though that was no longer top of RAM. I still think such a position is too hard on the designer. I'll take the unnamed person's defense. I don't know that I can argue the IRQ concern, but I'll look into it. I can definitely see the vector mod fixing an issue: "8086 Designer, come here" "yes?" "OK, we have all these 8080 users yelling at us because they want to start RAM at $0, and we require the vector go there." "yes, we assume there should be ROM at 0, followed by RAM" "Well, their designs work best if RAM starts low (zpage and all) and ROM goes up high" "Uh, OK, so we didn't understand the use case well enough" "Fix it in the 8086!" "How, we're committed to backwards compatibility" "Put them at top of memory map" "But, if we ever support more RAM, we'll have to move them" "Not a problem. DO it." "Compatibility issues!" "Do IT NOW! The CPU users detest having to perform trickery to get the jmp call into the CPU on reset. It's a kludge, and the Industry wants RAM low" Later, I can then see management reneging on the promise to move the vectors. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 4 15:39:24 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 13:39:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: segmented memory models In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080804133304.F86368@shell.lmi.net> > > address 0 be NULL was not around on the micros, and putting it at the On Mon, 4 Aug 2008, Tony Duell wrote: > I wasn't aware that this was a requirement of C, or any other language. C actually insists that address 0 is an invalid address! But, one of the best things about C is that it is easy to shove it out of the way when you want to do something else. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Mon Aug 4 15:46:14 2008 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 16:46:14 -0400 Subject: segmented memory models References: <20080804133304.F86368@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <18583.27286.954628.667151@barrett-us-nas.equallogic.com> >>>>> "Fred" == Fred Cisin writes: >> > address 0 be NULL was not around on the micros, and putting it >> at the Fred> On Mon, 4 Aug 2008, Tony Duell wrote: >> I wasn't aware that this was a requirement of C, or any other >> language. Fred> C actually insists that address 0 is an invalid address! Pedantically: not quite. It says that 0 is the token representing a null address. It doesn't say that the encoding of such a pointer is the same as that of the integer 0. In practice that's probably the case in all platforms -- certainly all current ones. I'm not 100% sure about the PDP-10, never mind the Cyber 6600... both of which have oddball pointers. paul From coredump at gifford.co.uk Mon Aug 4 15:55:19 2008 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2008 21:55:19 +0100 Subject: segmented memory models In-Reply-To: <20080804133304.F86368@shell.lmi.net> References: <20080804133304.F86368@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <48976CB7.6060308@gifford.co.uk> Fred Cisin wrote: > C actually insists that address 0 is an invalid address! Which is one reason why ANSI C on the transputer is such an... interesting, shall we say, variant of the language. Address 0x00000000 is in the middle of the address space on a transputer, due to the weird signed nature of addresses. The compiler quietly changes 0 into 0x80000000 when it's used as a pointer, so make sure your casts are OK! -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From spc at conman.org Mon Aug 4 16:06:17 2008 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 17:06:17 -0400 Subject: segmented memory models In-Reply-To: References: <4896702E.6050002@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <20080804210617.GA11622@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Tony Duell once stated: > > to me to be reacting to the "status quo", not creating a bad design. > > > > CPUs need to fetch vectors from a fixed address. Anywhere you put them Some CPUs added a register to point to the vector table. The 80286 and 68010 (and above) did this. The default location is the fixed locations used on the 8086 and 68000. > > will offend someone. I think Intel putting them at the bottom sounds > > like a fine design, at least in the '70s. 'C' and it's desire to have > > address 0 be NULL was not around on the micros, and putting it at the > > I wasn't aware that this was a requirement of C, or any other language. The C Standard say the token "0" (in a pointer context) is to be translated to a null address in the target architecture, and in most implementations, that address is indeed 0, but it doesn't have to be. Also, dereferencing such a pointer causes undefined behavior, which means what happens really depends upon the C compiler and underlying hardware. -spc ("Oooh, look at that magic smoke ... I just have derefenced a NULL pointer ... ") From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Aug 4 16:14:56 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 17:14:56 -0400 Subject: segmented memory models In-Reply-To: <20080804210617.GA11622@brevard.conman.org> References: <4896702E.6050002@jbrain.com> <20080804210617.GA11622@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <200808041714.57011.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 04 August 2008, Sean Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Tony Duell once stated: > > > > > will offend someone. I think Intel putting them at the bottom > > > sounds like a fine design, at least in the '70s. 'C' and it's > > > desire to have address 0 be NULL was not around on the micros, > > > and putting it at the > > > > I wasn't aware that this was a requirement of C, or any other > > language. > > The C Standard say the token "0" (in a pointer context) is to be > translated to a null address in the target architecture, and in most > implementations, that address is indeed 0, but it doesn't have to be. C also does not require that the value of a pointer be the actual address stored by the pointer. You could have said that the actual address is the value of the pointer minus 2^31 (or 2^15, 2^19 or whatever). In any case, C does not require that the physical/logical address "0" is equivalent to NULL, only that the value of a pointer is NULL if its value is "0". Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From spc at conman.org Mon Aug 4 16:15:02 2008 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 17:15:02 -0400 Subject: segmented memory models In-Reply-To: <489764DC.1060407@jbrain.com> References: <489764DC.1060407@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <20080804211502.GB11622@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Jim Brain once stated: > Tony Duell wrote: > > > >I wasn't aware that this was a requirement of C, or any other language. > > If someone deferenced (void*)0, most systems like to return something > (or preferably, trap the access and throw an exception). If you deref > NULL, I think many implementations return 0. It really depends upon the implementation. Under MS-DOS, it would return whatever was in location DS:0, or if dereferenced as a far pointer, 0:0, would give you the address of the Divide-by-0 exception routine. On the 68000, it would give you the initial stack pointer upon reset. Modern systems with memory protection usually mark location 0 as protected and no allow read/write access. I think the default action on VMS (or maybe the Unix varients on the VAX) allowed one to read from location 0, which always returned 0. > >No it doesn't, given that a PDP11 address to a program is always 16 bits. > >The 18 or 22 bit phuysicall addresses were created by the MMU. > > > Did an MMU exist for the 8086? If such a think existed, it would have been an external circuit, and would have been very hard to support since the 8086 did not include support for restartable instructions (same situation on the 68000). -spc (Well ... a paged-type memory protection would have been difficult on the 8086. A segmented virtual protection system might have been easier to support) From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Aug 4 16:15:37 2008 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 14:15:37 -0700 Subject: segmented memory models In-Reply-To: <18583.27286.954628.667151@barrett-us-nas.equallogic.com> References: <20080804133304.F86368@shell.lmi.net> <18583.27286.954628.667151@barrett-us-nas.equallogic.com> Message-ID: From: Paul Koning Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 1:46 PM >>>>>> "Fred" == Fred Cisin writes: >>>> address 0 be NULL was not around on the micros, and putting it >>> at the >Fred> On Mon, 4 Aug 2008, Tony Duell wrote: >>> I wasn't aware that this was a requirement of C, or any other >>> language. >Fred> C actually insists that address 0 is an invalid address! > Pedantically: not quite. It says that 0 is the token representing a > null address. It doesn't say that the encoding of such a pointer is > the same as that of the integer 0. > In practice that's probably the case in all platforms -- certainly all > current ones. I'm not 100% sure about the PDP-10, never mind the > Cyber 6600... both of which have oddball pointers. It's not that the PDP-10 has "oddball pointers", but rather that "address" is not the same data type as "(byte) pointer". I assume that something similar is true on the CDC 6x00 family, but I haven't looked at one since September, 1970, before I dropped the Compass programming class at UT Austin. Thanks, Rich Rich Alderson RichA at vulcan.com Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project (206) 342-2239 Vulcan, Inc., 505 5th Avenue S, Seattle, WA 98104 (206) 465-2916 cell From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Aug 4 16:22:46 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 17:22:46 -0400 Subject: segmented memory models In-Reply-To: <4896702E.6050002@jbrain.com> References: <4896702E.6050002@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <200808041722.46472.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Sunday 03 August 2008, Jim Brain wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > > And what maces the design worse is that the problem had been > > considered (and correctly solved) before. On the PDP11, the top > > part of the address space was used for I/O devices. And it was the > > top part on all PDP11s, whether they had 16, 18, or 22 bit > > addressing. > > I don't think I would call that a correct design. It forces all > programs to treat all IO as relative addresses, since they will move > as the design moves. If there are processing penalties for relative > addressing, you've sealed the programmer's fate. I'll assume from that comment that you aren't familiar with PDP-11 addressing. They are still fixed addresses, they all map to (octal) 160000 through 177777 by default. The extra bits of address space are accessible only by programming the memory mapping hardware in the CPU, which can map the I/O page (always the top 8192 bytes of memory) to any 8k boundry in the logical 64kB memory map. This requires no relative addressing, since the device can always appear at the same location in memory, unless you chose to move it by changing the memory map. And, in case you're worried that hardware had to be adjusted depending on what address bus used, it didn't. The CPU asserts a I/O page line on the bus whenever there's an access to the I/O page of address space, So, the device only needs to check 12 address lines (memory accesses are 16 bites wide) and the I/O page line, regardless of how wide the address bus on the CPU is. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Aug 4 16:27:21 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 17:27:21 -0400 Subject: segmented memory models In-Reply-To: <20080804211502.GB11622@brevard.conman.org> References: <489764DC.1060407@jbrain.com> <20080804211502.GB11622@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <200808041727.21540.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 04 August 2008, Sean Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Jim Brain once stated: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > >No it doesn't, given that a PDP11 address to a program is always > > > 16 bits. The 18 or 22 bit phuysicall addresses were created by > > > the MMU. > > > > Did an MMU exist for the 8086? > > If such a think existed, it would have been an external circuit, > and would have been very hard to support since the 8086 did not > include support for restartable instructions (same situation on the > 68000). The PDP-11 doesn't support restartable instructions either. You don't need restartable instructions to support an MMU, only to support virtual memory type operations. For example, my Z80-based Altos 8000 has a bank-switching MMU that could operate the same way as an MMU on a 808[68] would. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From sellam at vintagetech.com Mon Aug 4 16:31:11 2008 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 14:31:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Need Toshiba T1200 manuals Message-ID: I need any documentation I can get for the Toshiba T1200 laptop. This is a late 1980s era model (follow-up to the T1100/1100+/1000). I'm willing to pay up to $100 for them but need them within the next couple of days. Please call or contact me ASAP if you can help. 925/294-5900 office 925/216-0569 mobile Thanks! -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Aug 4 16:45:09 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2008 15:45:09 -0600 Subject: segmented memory models In-Reply-To: <20080804210617.GA11622@brevard.conman.org> References: <4896702E.6050002@jbrain.com> <20080804210617.GA11622@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <48977865.2050401@jetnet.ab.ca> Sean Conner wrote: > > -spc ("Oooh, look at that magic smoke ... I just have derefenced a NULL > pointer ... ") > > FIXED! { Magic smoke } > NULL: From RichA at vulcan.com Mon Aug 4 16:56:20 2008 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 14:56:20 -0700 Subject: SDS/XDS Sigma systems Message-ID: If anyone on the list is aware of Sigma equipment still in existence, please contact me. I am aware that Honeywell forcibly retired the systems as service contracts expired in the early 80s, and that this will be very rare if it does exist at all. Thanks, Rich Rich Alderson RichA at vulcan.com Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project (206) 342-2239 Vulcan, Inc., 505 5th Avenue S, Seattle, WA 98104 (206) 465-2916 cell From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 4 17:25:42 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 23:25:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: segmented memory models In-Reply-To: <200808041722.46472.pat@computer-refuge.org> from "Patrick Finnegan" at Aug 4, 8 05:22:46 pm Message-ID: > And, in case you're worried that hardware had to be adjusted depending > on what address bus used, it didn't. The CPU asserts a I/O page line > on the bus whenever there's an access to the I/O page of address space, > So, the device only needs to check 12 address lines (memory accesses > are 16 bites wide) and the I/O page line, regardless of how wide the > address bus on the CPU is. Actually, that's only yhe case on the Q-bus, which could have either 18 or 22 address lines (was there ever a version that only drove 16 address lines?) On the Unibus, there are always 18 address lines, and devices check all 18 of them. On machines without an MMU, or with the MMU turned off, the top 2 address lines (A16 and A17) are asserted if all of A13...A15 are 1's. AFAIK, that was the case from the very first PDP11, which is the whole point of this discussion, the machine was designed with the future in mind Unibus machines with 22 bit addressing have a special memory bus (not UNibus) with 22 address lines, and a second, simple, MMU, called the Unibus Map, between the 18 Unibus address lines and the 22 memory address lines for DMA. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 4 17:20:08 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 23:20:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: segmented memory models In-Reply-To: <489764DC.1060407@jbrain.com> from "Jim Brain" at Aug 4, 8 03:21:48 pm Message-ID: > > No it doesn't, given that a PDP11 address to a program is always 16 bits. > > The 18 or 22 bit phuysicall addresses were created by the MMU. > > > Did an MMU exist for the 8086? No, not as a single chip (AFAIK). But that doesn't stop somebody building one if they want to. And AFAIK there is no MMU for the PDP11/20 (the first PDP11 implementation). And yet it got the extension of 16 bit program addresses to 18 bit bus address 'correct' ((a) what all other 11's do and (b) what was sensible to do given the fact that I/O devices sit at the top of the address space)/ > > > > > > The issue here was witht he 80286 .vs. the 8086. Not the 8080. It was > > clear the 8088 had sold very well (IBM and all that :-)), it was likely > > the 80286 would sell well as well. > > > I'm not sure I follow. I thought you argued moving the vectors to > $ffff:0000 was bad, but I believe that was done on the 8086. By the IIRC, it's not strictly a vector, in that that location doesn't contain the address of the routine to be executed on Reset (as is the case on, say , a 6502 or 6809), but rather the first instruction to be executed. But anyway. No, I don;t think putting the reset at the top of memory was inherrently silly. It's just that it doesn't seem to have served any real purpose. The problems on the 8080 systems caused by having reset jump to location 0 were really due to the fact that reset jumped to a fixed location, not where that location was. So moving it somewhere else neither helped nor hindered anyone. > time the 286 was designed, backwards compatibility mandated the reset > vectors stay in the same place, even though that was no longer top of RAM. And that's where I disagree. The addreess FFFF:0000 can _also_ be interpretted as '16 bytes below the physical top of memory. Given that the reset routine is likely to be in ROM, and given that contiguous RAM is generally a good thing, IMHO it would have been better if the physical address outputted by an 80286 for the first instruction after reset was FFFFF0 (not 0FFFF0). One way to do this would have been similar to the PDP11 I/O address trick (which is why I brought that up), namely that in real mode, the 'extra' 4 address lines of the 80286 (over the ones of the 8086) are all set to the same state and that state is the logical AND of the top so-many-bits of the current segment register. -tony From ikvsabre at comcast.net Mon Aug 4 17:34:09 2008 From: ikvsabre at comcast.net (Joe Stevenson) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2008 18:34:09 -0400 Subject: Programming books looking for a good home References: <4896702E.6050002@jbrain.com> <20080804210617.GA11622@brevard.conman.org> <48977865.2050401@jetnet.ab.ca> <200308041829330765.000CEA94@smtp.comcast.net> Message-ID: <200808041834090187.001120F2@smtp.comcast.net> Hi all, Programming Windows 95 - The Definitive Developer's Guide to the Windows '95 API (Petzold & Yao, 1996 Microsoft Press) Introduction to Graphics Programming for Windows '95 - Vector Graphics using C++ (Michael J. Young, 1996 Acedemic Press, Inc.) I figure $2 each plus shipping isn't too much to ask. Joe From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Aug 4 17:38:27 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 18:38:27 -0400 Subject: segmented memory models In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200808041838.27368.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 04 August 2008, Tony Duell wrote: > > And, in case you're worried that hardware had to be adjusted > > depending on what address bus used, it didn't. The CPU asserts a > > I/O page line on the bus whenever there's an access to the I/O page > > of address space, So, the device only needs to check 12 address > > lines (memory accesses are 16 bites wide) and the I/O page line, > > regardless of how wide the address bus on the CPU is. > > Actually, that's only yhe case on the Q-bus, which could have either > 18 or 22 address lines (was there ever a version that only drove 16 > address lines?) The 11/03, and LSI-11/2, probably the SBC-11/21, and the 11/23 when not fitted with an MMU. I can't think of any others off the top of my head. :) > On the Unibus, there are always 18 address lines, and devices check > all 18 of them. On machines without an MMU, or with the MMU turned > off, the top 2 address lines (A16 and A17) are asserted if all of > A13...A15 are 1's. AFAIK, that was the case from the very first > PDP11, which is the whole point of this discussion, the machine was > designed with the future in mind Unibus machines with 22 bit > addressing have a special memory bus (not UNibus) with 22 address > lines, and a second, simple, MMU, called the Unibus Map, between the > 18 Unibus address lines and the 22 memory address lines for DMA. Still, this is equivalent to how the QBUS did it, only without using a separate line to signal I/O page accesses. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 4 18:03:58 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2008 16:03:58 -0700 Subject: segmented memory models In-Reply-To: References: , <18583.27286.954628.667151@barrett-us-nas.equallogic.com>, Message-ID: <4897286E.11094.174473F@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Aug 2008 at 14:15, Rich Alderson wrote: > It's not that the PDP-10 has "oddball pointers", but rather that > "address" is not the same data type as "(byte) pointer". I assume that > something similar is true on the CDC 6x00 family, but I haven't looked > at one since September, 1970, before I dropped the Compass programming > class at UT Austin. I never used C on a 6600 (or any other CDC machine for that matter), but yeah, the addressing granularity is a 60-bit word. Oddly, that didn't seem to affect the efficiency of languages such as COBOL that rely heavily on character data. In fact, COBOL on a 6600 was one of the fastest implementations of any machine of the time. Character move loops for example, were typically coded (except by "brain dead" programmers) to move 10 characters per loop pass--and duplexed load units made it easy to write an in-stack loop where an instruction issued every cycle and memory was kept busy. I have no idea how the implementors of 6000-series C decided to fashion their character pointers. I can well imagine that they were "weird". But byte (whatever you want to call a byte) addressability is just an artificial convenience anyway if your CPU has a wider datapath than a byte. The CDC STAR, for example, had bit addressability. Cheers, Chuck From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Aug 4 18:38:34 2008 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2008 19:38:34 -0400 Subject: Free PDP-11 Stuff in Bedford, NH In-Reply-To: <1A8C77B1-3C55-4623-9A15-831635FD534F@xlisper.com> References: <1A8C77B1-3C55-4623-9A15-831635FD534F@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <489792FA.1060008@compsys.to> >David Betz wrote: > I have a "PDP-11" that is actually a box (BA-23) that used to contain > a MicroVAX I. I replaced the MVI boards with the following modules: > > M8190 KDJ11-B > M7551-CF 4MB memory > M7504 ethernet adapter > M7555 RQDX3 hard/floppy controller > M8043 DLV11-J 4 line serial > > It also contains the following drives: > > RX50 two 5.25" floppy drives > RD54 159MB hard drive > > It seems to work. I was able to get RT-11 installed on the hard drive > and the system boots to a prompt. I haven't played with it much since > then though. > > I also have a bunch of other Q-Bus modules including a KDF11 CPU and > some other memory and I/O boards as well as a few spare drives. > > Is anyone interested in coming to pick this stuff up? > > David Jerome Fine replies: It looks like you already have James Fogg to pick up this treasure trove. Can you confirm? Otherwise, ... Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From brain at jbrain.com Mon Aug 4 18:55:49 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2008 18:55:49 -0500 Subject: segmented memory models In-Reply-To: <200808041722.46472.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <4896702E.6050002@jbrain.com> <200808041722.46472.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <48979705.9090003@jbrain.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > I'll assume from that comment that you aren't familiar with PDP-11 > I understood the argument as "8086 put the 'vectors' (in quotes, since they are not just the addresses, but the opcode as well) at the top of RAM, which did not solve anything., because in the next generation of CPU, those addresses fell in the middle of the memory map. So, on the one hand, you could constrain the memory map (ala PDP-11), which it appears would be considered an "elegant" design, or we lift the top of the address space, now exposing the 'vectors' as being in the middle of the memory map, and that is considered "bad". Dunno, given the choice between fixed map with MMU to push blocks of RAM into view, or lifting the top of memory, I think the x86 designers picked a wise path. > And, in case you're worried that hardware had to be adjusted depending > on what address bus used, it didn't. The CPU asserts a I/O page line > on the bus whenever there's an access to the I/O page of address space, > So, the device only needs to check 12 address lines (memory accesses > are 16 bites wide) and the I/O page line, regardless of how wide the > address bus on the CPU is. > I noted the concern in general, but it does indeed appear the PDP-11 designers handled it with elegance. Still, I think we're comparing apples to oranges. The Intel crowd had very little control over the computer design, while the DEC team controlled all aspects of the design, including the CPU. If the IBM team hadworked very closely with the Intel designers in bringing out the 5150, I would agree with Tony's point. But, we know IBM broke the rules in bringing out the unit, pulling off the shelf and already available parts to bring the machine to market. If they *had* collaborated as described, I fear the PC would never have made it. I tend to believe it arrived because the folks who designed it took the non-IBM approach, not in spite of that approach. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Aug 4 18:59:15 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2008 16:59:15 -0700 Subject: Is anyone in Houston? Message-ID: <489797D3.4080709@brouhaha.com> I could use a small favor if anyone on the list is in Houston. It's classic computer related, but will not involve picking up or shipping anything. If you might be able to help out, please email me directly at , don't reply to the list. Thanks! Eric From brain at jbrain.com Mon Aug 4 19:09:12 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2008 19:09:12 -0500 Subject: segmented memory models In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48979A28.8040909@jbrain.com> Tony Duell wrote: > No, not as a single chip (AFAIK). But that doesn't stop somebody building > one if they want to. > > And AFAIK there is no MMU for the PDP11/20 (the first PDP11 > implementation). And yet it got the extension of 16 bit program addresses > to 18 bit bus address 'correct' ((a) what all other 11's do and (b) what > was sensible to do given the fact that I/O devices sit at the top of the > address space)/ > I'll stand my ground. The fact that one could build an MMU for the 8086 is different from requiring one in the design of a PC that used the 8086. In fatc, who's to say the 8086 designer expected the computer developers to use an MMU? It's not like they could force them to do so. > No, I don;t think putting the reset at the top of memory was inherrently > silly. It's just that it doesn't seem to have served any real purpose. > The problems on the 8080 systems caused by having reset jump to location > 0 were really due to the fact that reset jumped to a fixed location, not > where that location was. So moving it somewhere else neither helped nor > hindered anyone. > I think I made a convincing case in one of my previous posts. I can see clearly that 8080 board designers would have carped quite a bit about having to map ROM into $000 for boot and wanted that to go away in the next iteration of the board. Or, perhaps Intel just noticed where everyone was going, with RAM at 0, and wanted to help make it easier to design in the 8086 (I think this was at a time where Intel's dominance of the CPU market was not even on the RADAR, so I suspect they did what they could to ensure an easy design in. To play that car further, by the time the 80286 came out (and to use your argument that Intel knew the 80286 was a sure thing), they probably didn;t care about it as much. People would use the 80286 because it was the next in the lineage, and the x86 was a force to be reckoned with. So, for the poor designer who no doubt raised the issue you describe, I can easily see them beaten down by the marketing and management types, saying, don't waste silicon on it, we *own* this market! > And that's where I disagree. The addreess FFFF:0000 can _also_ be > interpretted as '16 bytes below the physical top of memory. Given that > the reset routine is likely to be in ROM, and given that contiguous RAM > is generally a good thing, IMHO it would have been better if the physical > address outputted by an 80286 for the first instruction after reset was > FFFFF0 (not 0FFFF0). One way to do this would have been similar to the > PDP11 I/O address trick (which is why I brought that up), namely that in > real mode, the 'extra' 4 address lines of the 80286 (over the ones of the > 8086) are all set to the same state and that state is the logical AND of > the top so-many-bits of the current segment register. > I really think compatibility concerns trumped the implementation of this idea. And, even if they truly should have implement the idea you describe, I just don't think it qualifies as "brain dead" that they did not. From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Mon Aug 4 19:14:08 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 00:14:08 +0000 Subject: segmented memory models In-Reply-To: <20080804210617.GA11622@brevard.conman.org> References: <4896702E.6050002@jbrain.com> <20080804210617.GA11622@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <20080805001408.GA26030@usap.gov> On Mon, Aug 04, 2008 at 05:06:17PM -0400, Sean Conner wrote: > > I wasn't aware that this was a requirement of C, or any other language. > > The C Standard say the token "0" (in a pointer context) is to be > translated to a null address in the target architecture, and in most > implementations, that address is indeed 0, but it doesn't have to be. > > Also, dereferencing such a pointer causes undefined behavior, which means > what happens really depends upon the C compiler and underlying hardware. I ran into this when someone at Lucent ported a simple utility from an NCR Unix box to a Sun box - somewhere, someone was dereferencing a null pointer (getting strlen() perhaps?)... on the NCR box, the implementation treated the length of a null pointer as the same as a pointer to a null (character). On the Solaris machine, it threw a segfault. It took me a bit of time to convince the guys that both implementations were valid and that it wasn't a "Solaris bug". This particular implementation issue is, IIRC, one reason the Amiga puts a $00000000 at $0000000 (and uses $00000004 as its "ExecBase" pointer location)... the two ways to catch these sorts of user code issues are to either stuff something like $DEADBEEF at $00000000 or to use Enforcer to trip up your program if you try to dereference a null pointer (presuming your development platform has an MMU, of course). Either way, you'll quickly find null-pointer derefs and be able to take them out to avoid "undefined behavior". -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 5-Aug-2008 at 00:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -75.8 F (-59.9 C) Windchill -112.0 F (-80.0 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 9.9 kts Grid 28 Barometer 672.2 mb (10924 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From jrkeys at concentric.net Mon Aug 4 20:33:11 2008 From: jrkeys at concentric.net (Keys) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 20:33:11 -0500 Subject: Is anyone in Houston? References: <489797D3.4080709@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <000901c8f69b$3a992d20$02406b43@66067007> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Smith" To: ; "Discussion at cnc.net:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, August 04, 2008 6:59 PM Subject: Is anyone in Houston? >I could use a small favor if anyone on the list is in Houston. It's >classic computer related, but will not involve picking up or shipping >anything. > > If you might be able to help out, please email me directly at > , don't reply to the list. > > Thanks! > Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Aug 4 20:41:08 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2008 18:41:08 -0700 Subject: I no longer need a contact in Houston (was Re: Is anyone in Houston?) In-Reply-To: <489797D3.4080709@brouhaha.com> References: <489797D3.4080709@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4897AFB4.6010601@brouhaha.com> Thanks to those who replied! Eric From wgungfu at uwm.edu Mon Aug 4 20:50:49 2008 From: wgungfu at uwm.edu (wgungfu at uwm.edu) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 20:50:49 -0500 Subject: Jolt schematic and pictures? In-Reply-To: <4897AFB4.6010601@brouhaha.com> References: <489797D3.4080709@brouhaha.com> <4897AFB4.6010601@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <1217901049.4897b1f928599@panthermail.uwm.edu> Does anyone have decent pictures of an assembled Jolt board and/or schematics? I'm looking to try and put together a recreation. Thanks in advance! Marty From wgungfu at uwm.edu Mon Aug 4 20:50:49 2008 From: wgungfu at uwm.edu (wgungfu at uwm.edu) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 20:50:49 -0500 Subject: Jolt schematic and pictures? In-Reply-To: <4897AFB4.6010601@brouhaha.com> References: <489797D3.4080709@brouhaha.com> <4897AFB4.6010601@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <1217901049.4897b1f9b7a1c@panthermail.uwm.edu> Does anyone have decent pictures of an assembled Jolt board and/or schematics? I'm looking to try and put together a recreation. Thanks in advance! Marty From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Aug 4 22:39:55 2008 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 04 Aug 2008 23:39:55 -0400 Subject: SDS/XDS Sigma systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4897CB8B.1000405@compsys.to> >Rich Alderson wrote: >If anyone on the list is aware of Sigma equipment still in existence, >please >contact me. I am aware that Honeywell forcibly retired the systems as >service >contracts expired in the early 80s, and that this will be very rare if >it does >exist at all. > > Thanks, > Rich > >Rich Alderson >RichA at vulcan.com >Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project (206) >342-2239 >Vulcan, Inc., 505 5th Avenue S, Seattle, WA 98104 (206) >465-2916 cell > > Jerome Fine replies: Somewhere there should still be a Sigma box that is about the same size as a BA23 box. It has a built-in 8" floppy (that can also be double sided) that runs using the MSCP controller and a hard drive, also using the MSCP controller. The Qbus backplane has at least 5 slots, maybe eight. It runs RT-11. I also have a number of Sigma ESDI hard disk drive controllers, RQD11-EC that I use with Hitachi 5.25" hard disk drive of 600 MegaBytes. Is this what you are looking for? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com Mon Aug 4 11:58:01 2008 From: charlesleecourtney at yahoo.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 09:58:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Faceplate or floor stand for DS20E In-Reply-To: <006401c8f64b$ba325520$2e96ff60$@com> Message-ID: <759468.75015.qm@web35303.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi Bob, I'd like faceplates for the DS20s. If you or anyone else has some or knows of a commercial source let me know. BTW - I also posted a note to the BSD and Linux Alpha lists and have placed several systems and storage shelves there. THanks! Lee C. --- On Mon, 8/4/08, Bob Armstrong wrote: > From: Bob Armstrong > Subject: Faceplate or floor stand for DS20E > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Monday, August 4, 2008, 9:04 AM > I got one of Guy's AlphaServers - it's actually a > rack mounted DS20E > that's working fine (thanks, Guy) but unfortunately all > of them were missing > their faceplates. I know it's a long shot, but does > anybody have a > faceplate for a DS20/DS20E, or better yet a set of the > floor pedestal skins, > that they'd part with? > > > > Thanks, > > Bob Armstrong From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Aug 4 22:20:04 2008 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 23:20:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: segmented memory models In-Reply-To: <20080805001408.GA26030@usap.gov> References: <4896702E.6050002@jbrain.com> <20080804210617.GA11622@brevard.conman.org> <20080805001408.GA26030@usap.gov> Message-ID: <200808050323.XAA24252@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > [nil pointer deref story] > It took me a bit of time to convince the guys that both > implementations were valid and that it wasn't a "Solaris bug". I ran into a related issue recently. A moderately popular open source project uses nonportable constructs involving varargs function calls, passing NULL, uncast, as a varargs argument and expecting it to be a nil pointer when fetched in the called function. Between a lack of implementations to point to where it'll fail and some very creative reading of the standard on the part of the "other side", I was unable to convince them this was invalid code.... Grrr. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Aug 4 22:27:53 2008 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 23:27:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: segmented memory models In-Reply-To: <18583.27286.954628.667151@barrett-us-nas.equallogic.com> References: <20080804133304.F86368@shell.lmi.net> <18583.27286.954628.667151@barrett-us-nas.equallogic.com> Message-ID: <200808050333.XAA24310@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> C actually insists that address 0 is an invalid address! > Pedantically: not quite. It says that 0 is the token representing a > null address. Not quite. There is no such thing as "a null address". Each pointer type has a distinguished value, termed a "null" pointer of that type, which does not point to any object, and which can be obtained by converting an integer constant expression with value 0 (of which a bare 0 is just one example), or such an expression cast to type "pointer to void", to the relevant pointer type. (This conversion may occur by casting, by assignment, by parameter passing....) Whether pointers are "addresses" - indeed, whether an "address" is a useful concept - is a matter for the implementation. I recall hearing of a C implementation for a Lisp Machine in which pointers were implemented as pairs. > It doesn't say that the encoding of such a pointer is the same as > that of the integer 0. Right. Indeed, the encoding of a null pointer may vary from type to type (within certain bounds; as a simple example, char * and void *, by special fiat, must use the same representation). /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From eric940 at gmail.com Tue Aug 5 01:26:57 2008 From: eric940 at gmail.com (Eric) Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 23:26:57 -0700 Subject: SDS/XDS Sigma systems In-Reply-To: <4897CB8B.1000405@compsys.to> References: <4897CB8B.1000405@compsys.to> Message-ID: >>Rich Alderson wrote: >> >> If anyone on the list is aware of Sigma equipment still in existence, please >> contact me. I am aware that Honeywell forcibly retired the systems as >> service contracts expired in the early 80s, and that this will be very rare if >> it does exist at all. > Jerome Fine replies: > > Somewhere there should still be a Sigma box that is about the > same size as a BA23 box. It has a built-in 8" floppy (that can > also be double sided) that runs using the MSCP controller > and a hard drive, also using the MSCP controller. The Qbus > backplane has at least 5 slots, maybe eight. It runs RT-11. > > I also have a number of Sigma ESDI hard disk drive controllers, > RQD11-EC that I use with Hitachi 5.25" hard disk drive of > 600 MegaBytes. > > Is this what you are looking for? Jerome: This is the wrong "Sigma" type device you are referring to. The correct Sigma device(s) consisted of, for example, the Sigma 5, Sigma 7, and Sigma 9 (was there a Sigma 2?) made by Scientific Data Systems (SDS), which was bought out by Xerox in 1969 and subsequently named Xerox Data Systems (XDS). Then, after Xerox abandoned the mainfame industry (circa 1974) -- Honeywell came into the picture and provided service engineering contracts and maintenance for their products and existing clients. In other words, the OP is looking out for mainframe type products (or minicomputer computer products, depending on your definition of exactly what defines a mainframe vs. minicomputer in this context :-) I'm not that familiar with the "Sigma" named device you are referring to, but am familiar enough to know that it is quite a more recent device than what the OP is looking for. -eric940 From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 5 03:51:44 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 01:51:44 -0700 Subject: SDS/XDS Sigma systems In-Reply-To: References: , <4897CB8B.1000405@compsys.to>, Message-ID: <4897B230.4631.38E5CEC@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Aug 2008 at 23:26, Eric wrote: > The correct Sigma device(s) consisted of, for example, the Sigma 5, > Sigma 7, and Sigma 9 (was there a Sigma 2?) made by Scientific Data > Systems (SDS), which was bought out by Xerox in 1969 and subsequently > named Xerox Data Systems (XDS). > > Then, after Xerox abandoned the mainfame industry (circa 1974) -- > Honeywell came into the picture and provided service engineering > contracts and maintenance for their products and existing clients. > > In other words, the OP is looking out for mainframe type products (or > minicomputer computer products, depending on your definition of > exactly what defines a mainframe vs. minicomputer in this context :-) Boy, that name goes back quite a ways My friends at Lockheed (LMSC) in Sunnyvale used a couple of those in the 1970s. SDS->XDS is right. Here's some more information on the SDS machines: http://www.andrews.edu/~calkins/profess/SDSigma7.htm Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 5 04:03:36 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 02:03:36 -0700 Subject: segmented memory models In-Reply-To: References: <489764DC.1060407@jbrain.com> from "Jim Brain" at Aug 4, 8 03:21:48 pm, Message-ID: <4897B4F8.22056.3993A76@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Aug 2008 at 23:20, Tony Duell wrote: > IMHO it would have been better if the physical > address outputted by an 80286 for the first instruction after reset was > FFFFF0 (not 0FFFF0). One way to do this would have been similar to the > PDP11 I/O address trick (which is why I brought that up), namely that in > real mode, the 'extra' 4 address lines of the 80286 (over the ones of the > 8086) are all set to the same state and that state is the logical AND of > the top so-many-bits of the current segment register. My gripe with all of the X86 series is that there are no status lines indicating which segment register is being used to generate an address. The NEC V40, for example, tells you this, so you can have 4 separate address spaces of 1M each. Fetching from a different space on reset is a no-brainer to implement. Cheers, Chuck From pcw at mesanet.com Tue Aug 5 08:55:29 2008 From: pcw at mesanet.com (Peter C. Wallace) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 06:55:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SDS/XDS Sigma systems In-Reply-To: References: <4897CB8B.1000405@compsys.to> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Aug 2008, Eric wrote: > Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 23:26:57 -0700 > From: Eric > Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: SDS/XDS Sigma systems > >>> Rich Alderson wrote: >>> >>> If anyone on the list is aware of Sigma equipment still in existence, please >>> contact me. I am aware that Honeywell forcibly retired the systems as >>> service contracts expired in the early 80s, and that this will be very rare if >>> it does exist at all. > I wonder if anyone at whats left of System Concepts would know what happened to theirs, they bought one from UC Berkeleys salvage yard somewhere around 1979... Peter Wallace From db at db.net Tue Aug 5 09:00:00 2008 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 10:00:00 -0400 Subject: SDS/XDS Sigma systems In-Reply-To: References: <4897CB8B.1000405@compsys.to> Message-ID: <20080805140000.GA71322@night.db.net> On Tue, Aug 05, 2008 at 06:55:29AM -0700, Peter C. Wallace wrote: > On Mon, 4 Aug 2008, Eric wrote: > > >Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 23:26:57 -0700 > >From: Eric > >Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > ... > >>>If anyone on the list is aware of Sigma equipment still in existence, > >>>please > >>>contact me. I am aware that Honeywell forcibly retired the systems as > >>>service contracts expired in the early 80s, and that this will be very > >>>rare if > >>>it does exist at all. > > Carleton University here in Ottawa Ontario Canada had a Sigma 9. I remember their RAD (Rapid Access Disk), wow. fast disk. It was actually a drum as I recall. CRC out in Shirleys bay (government installation) also had a Sigma, I think it was the Sigma 7. It was a long time ago. - Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From blstuart at bellsouth.net Tue Aug 5 09:02:05 2008 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 14:02:05 +0000 Subject: segmented memory models In-Reply-To: References: <489764DC.1060407@jbrain.com> from Message-ID: <080520081402.12596.48985D5D0000DE8B0000313422218683269B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> > And AFAIK there is no MMU for the PDP11/20 (the first PDP11 Not as a product. However, lo these many years ago (neigh on to 3 decades), I was shown an object that consisted of numerous DEC modules and told that it was one of three MMUs that had been built for the 11/20. Since we also had an 11/20 there, it was at least plausible. To my knowledge, it was later lost to a great clean-out. Now, I have no idea whether it really was an 11/20 MMU, but I do recall a while back coming across a mention of what sounded like an experimental MMU for it. So such a thing did exist in legend and myth... BLS From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 09:41:01 2008 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 07:41:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <313811.2421.qm@web56214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> http://news.bostonherald.com/business/technology/general/view/2008_08_04_Designers_on_quest_to_build__12_computer/ From oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org Tue Aug 5 09:51:38 2008 From: oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 08:51:38 -0600 Subject: WTB: SGI drive sleds/brackets Message-ID: <489868FA.9030908@rogerwilco.org> Wanted to buy for a reasonable price + shipping: 3-1/2" drive sled for SGI Indigo2 5-1/4" drive sled for SGI Indigo2 (x3) 3-1/2" drive bracket for SGI Indy Anyone with some extras? Please contact me off-list. Last weekend I came across a(n) SGI Indigo2 and several Indys at the local university surplus store. Having no experience with SGI gear I couldn't resist and picked up the Indigo2 and (x2) Indys. The prices were quite reasonable, and now I know why! There are no drives inside. As a rule, all systems from this outlet are stripped of their drives before being put on sale. If only I'd known. This particular surplus store always binds the machines closed with nylon shipping straps to prevent people from delving inside and lifting little parts without paying for the machine. So I couldn't 'pop the lid' and check them out. And, you can't cut them open until you buy. What is the saying?..."What you don't know can't hurt you," or something like that? ;) My ignorance of SGI gear and the store's policy cost me on this one. Live and learn! Anyway, I now have an Indigo2 (pre-IMPACT! green case) with what I think is 256MB RAM, and 2 identical Indys with R4600/133 CPUs and mabye 128MB RAM, all without disks. I'll know more when I get a 13W3-to-VGA cable rigged up. Anyway, hoping to resurrect them with some flavor of BSD, or even IRIX 5.3 if I can find it. Thanks, Jared From bpope at wordstock.com Tue Aug 5 10:14:33 2008 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 11:14:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone In-Reply-To: <313811.2421.qm@web56214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20080805151433.BA5BA56893@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Christian Liendo > > http://news.bostonherald.com/business/technology/general/view/2008_08_04_Designers_on_quest_to_build__12_computer/ > Why do they not use a Commodore 64 instead? It has already been reduced to a single chip by Jeri Ellsworth and it has enhanced graphics that are better then what the original C64 had. Cheers, Bryan From brad at heeltoe.com Tue Aug 5 10:16:14 2008 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 11:16:14 -0400 Subject: 9 track tape drive motors - suitable for a go-kart? Message-ID: <9952.1217949374@mini> This has only a little to do with classic computing, but it seems like it could generate epic amounts of email, so what the heck... Does anything know much about the construction and capacity of a typical 9 track tape drive motor? Like the big 1 foot x 6" tubes which I've seen a kennedy or DEC drive? I don't know anything about how they are constructed, but I assume they are high RPM and high torque. And probably some sort of DC stepper. I have a racing go-kart frame which is currently missing a motor (a CRG if anyone cares). It occurred to me that it might be fun to grab a large number of high capacity batteries and somehow rig one of the tape drive motors to the live axle. I assume via a reduction gear and chain. (clearly math needs to be done, but I want to start by finding the right motor) I would imagine several versions, starting with the simplest version but moving to something where both rear wheels are driven and having some sort of "software differential" and the moral equivalent of compression braking. no doubt there is something like alt.cars.electric-karts where I should go with this, but I thought i'd ask about the tape drive motors first. Anyone know what their specs are approximately and if they would be appropriate? (my goal is to be able to smoke the rear wheels and then turn on the traction control :-) clearly I've been spending too much time on the Tesla and Spacex web sites :-) -brad From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 10:17:02 2008 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 08:17:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone In-Reply-To: <20080805151433.BA5BA56893@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <460710.50079.qm@web56202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> I thought the same thing. --- On Tue, 8/5/08, Bryan Pope wrote: > From: Bryan Pope > Subject: Re: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Tuesday, August 5, 2008, 11:14 AM > And thusly were the wise words spake by Christian Liendo > > > > > http://news.bostonherald.com/business/technology/general/view/2008_08_04_Designers_on_quest_to_build__12_computer/ > > > > Why do they not use a Commodore 64 instead? It has already > been > reduced to a single chip by Jeri Ellsworth and it has > enhanced > graphics that are better then what the original C64 had. > > Cheers, > > Bryan From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 10:21:07 2008 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 08:21:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone In-Reply-To: <20080805151433.BA5BA56893@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <683650.73822.qm@web56204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Does anyone know Jeri Ellsworth and can forward this to her? She should get in touch with the MIT guys and show them how this is done. Might save them many man hours and truly make a $12 computer. --- On Tue, 8/5/08, Bryan Pope wrote: > From: Bryan Pope > Subject: Re: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Tuesday, August 5, 2008, 11:14 AM > And thusly were the wise words spake by Christian Liendo > > > > > http://news.bostonherald.com/business/technology/general/view/2008_08_04_Designers_on_quest_to_build__12_computer/ > > > > Why do they not use a Commodore 64 instead? It has already > been > reduced to a single chip by Jeri Ellsworth and it has > enhanced > graphics that are better then what the original C64 had. > > Cheers, > > Bryan From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 10:25:57 2008 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 08:25:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Vintage sun stuff free for collection in south bay area. Message-ID: <22688.25999.qm@web56212.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Hi Sorry for the short notice on this... I have various vintage Sun items available for collection following a storage clear out. No charge for the items, but collector must take everything as I wont have time to split or arrange for multiple pickups. *Various parts for a Sun 3/80 including case, motherboard, possibly floppy drive, and more parts (can confirm). *Sun 3/60 fitted with colour framebuffer. *Sun 2/120 deskside unit. This is the deskside Sun 2 case with internal PSU and multibus card frame. The original multibus cards have been removed and I am unable to find them. There is no keyboard. *Sun monitor (mono) *Various other computer related parts including an old acoustic coupler modem and phone and a motherboard from an old Sun server (VME bus I think). All these items are untested and for parts only - that is you should assume nothing works. Now for the bad news .. unfortunately these items need to be collected by Friday 8th August ie. this week so would suit someone in the bay area (CA). Contact me off list if interested. Cheers Ian. From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Aug 5 10:26:25 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 08:26:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone In-Reply-To: <20080805151433.BA5BA56893@mail.wordstock.com> from Bryan Pope at "Aug 5, 8 11:14:33 am" Message-ID: <200808051526.m75FQP8K015400@floodgap.com> > Why do they not use a Commodore 64 instead? It has already been > reduced to a single chip by Jeri Ellsworth and it has enhanced > graphics that are better then what the original C64 had. Intellectual property concerns, maybe? The Apple II is certainly a much easier design to build from elemental pieces or reverse-engineer. Not that I mind a $12 C64, but still ... -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Vote anarchist! ------------------------------------------------------------ From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Tue Aug 5 10:31:43 2008 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 11:31:43 -0400 Subject: 9 track tape drive motors - suitable for a go-kart? References: <9952.1217949374@mini> Message-ID: <18584.29279.212552.954872@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Brad" == Brad Parker writes: Brad> This has only a little to do with classic computing, but it Brad> seems like it could generate epic amounts of email, so what the Brad> heck... Brad> Does anything know much about the construction and capacity of Brad> a typical 9 track tape drive motor? Like the big 1 foot x 6" Brad> tubes which I've seen a kennedy or DEC drive? Brad> I don't know anything about how they are constructed, but I Brad> assume they are high RPM and high torque. And probably some Brad> sort of DC stepper. Brad> I have a racing go-kart frame which is currently missing a Brad> motor (a CRG if anyone cares). It occurred to me that it might Brad> be fun to grab a large number of high capacity batteries and Brad> somehow rig one of the tape drive motors to the live axle. I Brad> assume via a reduction gear and chain. I believe they are servo motors, not steppers. Yes, pretty high torque. Not all that high RPM for the reel motors, higher for the capstan motor (if you're looking at vacuum column drives with start-stop capstans, as opposed to streaming drives, or drives like the 360-era IBM ones that had continuously turning capstans and solenoids that would push the tape against the capstan). I would assume they only a few hundred watts if that -- considering that they are run from low voltage supplies (12 volts or so) with drive transistors that are likely to be good for order of 10 amps or thereabouts. Not bad for spinning tape drive parts, but probably not good enough for a go-kart. Maybe Tesla has some castoffs? :-) Now *that* is a high power motor... paul From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Tue Aug 5 10:32:59 2008 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 16:32:59 +0100 Subject: MicroVAX 4000-105 Fast Wide Differential option? Message-ID: <53e388f20808050832x39944b82t2e0478b60b8d5f00@mail.gmail.com> Folks, Today I came across an oddity, a standard ds-47dbm-b9 VAX 4000-105A but seemingly featuring a third-party FWD/DSSI/SCSI option. Instead of the usual angled rear connector box containing 2 DSSI busses and a SCSI-1 connector the machine had a rectangular breakout box that featured from top to bottom FWD SCSI (68pin), blank, DSSI (single port), SCSI-1. The FWD port was connected to a Baydel RAIDER5 raid system and also had a differential terminator. I'm pretty sure that wasn't a DEC option in the UK, 2 DEC resellers I know agree so has anyone else heard of this? I wasn't allowed to shut the machine down so I couldn't check for manufacturers or part numbers..... VMS designator for the drive was DKW100 which further points at it being wide SCSI.... cheers! -- -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From steve at cosam.org Tue Aug 5 10:37:08 2008 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 17:37:08 +0200 Subject: segmented memory models In-Reply-To: <080520081402.12596.48985D5D0000DE8B0000313422218683269B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> References: <489764DC.1060407@jbrain.com> <080520081402.12596.48985D5D0000DE8B0000313422218683269B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> Message-ID: <95838e090808050837y785439b1xeff83b0f11afb93f@mail.gmail.com> 2008/8/5 Brian L. Stuart : >> And AFAIK there is no MMU for the PDP11/20 (the first PDP11 > > Not as a product. However, lo these many years ago (neigh > on to 3 decades), I was shown an object that consisted of > numerous DEC modules and told that it was one of three MMUs > that had been built for the 11/20. Probably doesn't count as a bona fide MMU, but I remember reading something about an add-on for the 11/20 which did kernel/user memory protection. IIRC it was called the KS11 and was some kind of special order option, so there probably weren't that many made. Could it be that that's what you were shown? -- Steve Maddison http://www.cosam.org/ From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 10:44:53 2008 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 08:44:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone In-Reply-To: <200808051526.m75FQP8K015400@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <507520.26074.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> I thought about that.. First the C64 had already been completed, this means that the design work was done as well as licensing. I mean she had to get permission to make the DTV in the 1st place. So that work has already been done. Second, so many people have hacked the DTV design to do so many things, they could easily get this project done quicker by looking at the hacks. If the MIT group wants to get a machine into the hands of people ASAP, then they can go with a proven design. I think they just need to get the people who know together. The problem I see if getting licensing for all the software. But if they can pull it off they will have a $12 computer with a ton of software --- On Tue, 8/5/08, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > From: Cameron Kaiser > Subject: Re: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Date: Tuesday, August 5, 2008, 11:26 AM > > Why do they not use a Commodore 64 instead? It has > already been > > reduced to a single chip by Jeri Ellsworth and it has > enhanced > > graphics that are better then what the original C64 > had. > > Intellectual property concerns, maybe? The Apple II is > certainly a much > easier design to build from elemental pieces or > reverse-engineer. > > Not that I mind a $12 C64, but still ... > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: > http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * > ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- Vote anarchist! > ------------------------------------------------------------ From blstuart at bellsouth.net Tue Aug 5 10:49:36 2008 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 15:49:36 +0000 Subject: segmented memory models In-Reply-To: <95838e090808050837y785439b1xeff83b0f11afb93f@mail.gmail.com> References: <489764DC.1060407@jbrain.com> <080520081402.12596.48985D5D0000DE8B0000313422218683269B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> <95838e090808050837y785439b1xeff83b0f11afb93f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <080520081549.21496.4898769000082A2D000053F822218683269B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> > >> And AFAIK there is no MMU for the PDP11/20 (the first PDP11 > > > > Not as a product. However, lo these many years ago (neigh > > on to 3 decades), I was shown an object that consisted of > > numerous DEC modules and told that it was one of three MMUs > > that had been built for the 11/20. > > Probably doesn't count as a bona fide MMU, but I remember reading > something about an add-on for the 11/20 which did kernel/user memory > protection. IIRC it was called the KS11 and was some kind of special > order option, so there probably weren't that many made. Could it be > that that's what you were shown? It's possible. As I recall, the people who were telling me about it didn't know any details. If it was though, I'd be a little curious about the design. My memory of it is that it had nearly the same number of modules (did they still call them flip chip modules that late?) as the 11/20 itself had. I wouldn't have expected a device providing kernel/user separation to be that complex, but I also didn't dig into it at all at the time. I retrospect, I wish I had. BLS From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Aug 5 10:57:11 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 08:57:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone In-Reply-To: <507520.26074.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> from Christian Liendo at "Aug 5, 8 08:44:53 am" Message-ID: <200808051557.m75FvBfQ030298@floodgap.com> > > > Why do they not use a Commodore 64 instead? It has already been > > > reduced to a single chip by Jeri Ellsworth and it has enhanced > > > graphics that are better then what the original C64 had. > > Intellectual property concerns, maybe? The Apple II is certainly a much > > easier design to build from elemental pieces or reverse-engineer. > > Not that I mind a $12 C64, but still ... > I thought about that.. > First the C64 had already been completed, this means that the design work > was done as well as licensing. I mean she had to get permission to make the > DTV in the 1st place. So that work has already been done. I don't mean about the C64, I mean the *DTV* -- there's still patents on the patentable portions of that design. Sure, not the core logic, but the DTV itself couldn't be used without licensing (I'm sure Ironstone and Toy Lobster want their money). So they'd have to reverse engineer it and the Apple II is clearly an easier job. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- We only pretend to have standards. -- Unknown producer, ABC-TV ------------- From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Aug 5 11:01:57 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 09:01:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone In-Reply-To: <507520.26074.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200808051601.m75G1vXU012603@onyx.spiritone.com> > If the MIT group wants to get a machine into the hands of people ASAP, > then they can go with a proven design. I think they just need to get the > people who know together. I can think of two reasons why they went with the Apple II. The most obvious is from the article, and that is that it is what they were familiar with. The other is that the Apple II can take expansion cards, though I doubt this was a deciding factor. > The problem I see if getting licensing for all the software. But if they > can pull it off they will have a $12 computer with a ton of software >From reading the article it sounds like they are largely looking for new software, which if you think about it makes sense, as English software probably won't be of a lot of use in *rural* India. Now my question is this, will they be available in the US? :^) Zane From brain at jbrain.com Tue Aug 5 11:15:27 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 11:15:27 -0500 Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone In-Reply-To: <507520.26074.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <507520.26074.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48987C9F.8080503@jbrain.com> Sadly, the collaboration ended between Jeri and the folks who produced the DTV ended very badly, I believe a suit was filed. As such, I don't think there's a future with that IP. There is another core that could be used (I have it saved here locally somewhere), but I think I agree, an Apple II would be easier to deal with. As well, the article (one of them) notes the group is trying to update an existing Apple-II like design alrayd in production, so there are some other factors at play. Jim From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Aug 5 11:22:42 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 11:22:42 -0500 Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone In-Reply-To: <200808051526.m75FQP8K015400@floodgap.com> References: <200808051526.m75FQP8K015400@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <48987E52.3030508@gmail.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> Why do they not use a Commodore 64 instead? It has already been >> reduced to a single chip by Jeri Ellsworth and it has enhanced >> graphics that are better then what the original C64 had. > > Intellectual property concerns, maybe? The Apple II is certainly a much > easier design to build from elemental pieces or reverse-engineer. The article says nothing about an ability to run vintage software, though - it implies that completely new software will be written for the necessary apps. I can only assume that any license issues are already solved, as otherwise there seems little merit in using an old design at all rather than just building a "conventional" low-cost machine using off the shelf parts. cheers Jules From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Aug 5 11:24:53 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 09:24:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MicroVAX 4000-105 Fast Wide Differential option? In-Reply-To: <53e388f20808050832x39944b82t2e0478b60b8d5f00@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200808051624.m75GOsic013215@onyx.spiritone.com> > Today I came across an oddity, a standard ds-47dbm-b9 VAX 4000-105A but > seemingly featuring a third-party FWD/DSSI/SCSI option. Instead of the usual > angled rear connector box containing 2 DSSI busses and a SCSI-1 connector > the machine had a rectangular breakout box that featured from top to bottom > FWD SCSI (68pin), blank, DSSI (single port), SCSI-1. The FWD port was > connected to a Baydel RAIDER5 raid system and also had a differential > terminator. > > I'm pretty sure that wasn't a DEC option in the UK, 2 DEC resellers I know > agree so has anyone else heard of this? I wasn't allowed to shut the machine > down so I couldn't check for manufacturers or part numbers..... VMS > designator for the drive was DKW100 which further points at it being wide > SCSI.... > > cheers! > > adrian/witchy My first thought would be that it's a 90's era upgrade from Nemonix as I believe they did (and still do) most of the VAX 4000 upgrades. http://www.nemonixengineering.com/ Zane From bob at jfcl.com Tue Aug 5 11:31:20 2008 From: bob at jfcl.com (Bob Armstrong) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 09:31:20 -0700 Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone In-Reply-To: <313811.2421.qm@web56214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <313811.2421.qm@web56214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002c01c8f718$b16e49d0$144add70$@com> >http://news.bostonherald.com/business/technology/general/view/2008_08_04_De signers_on_quest_to_build__12_computer/ Thought #1 - Is Apple going to let them do this? They can build all the hardware they want, but Apple still owns the copyright for the Apple ][ firmware. Unless Apple goes along with it, they aren't going to be able to (legally, that is) duplicate the ROM contents or use any of the Apple owned software. Thought #2 - They want somebody to write a web browser for an Apple ][ ???? A TCP/IP stack I can see, but a whole browser? Unless they're thinking about using Lynx, I suspect not. Bob From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Aug 5 11:35:45 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 11:35:45 -0500 Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone In-Reply-To: <20080805151433.BA5BA56893@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20080805151433.BA5BA56893@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <48988161.8030706@oldskool.org> Bryan Pope wrote: > Why do they not use a Commodore 64 instead? It has already been > reduced to a single chip by Jeri Ellsworth and it has enhanced > graphics that are better then what the original C64 had. How so? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Aug 5 11:45:40 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 09:45:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone In-Reply-To: <002c01c8f718$b16e49d0$144add70$@com> from Bob Armstrong at "Aug 5, 8 09:31:20 am" Message-ID: <200808051645.m75GjeUJ023746@floodgap.com> > Thought #2 - They want somebody to write a web browser for an Apple ][ > ???? A TCP/IP stack I can see, but a whole browser? Unless they're > thinking about using Lynx, I suspect not. They could use gopher. I'm just saying. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- FORTUNE: Make your own advancement opportunity. Blackmail your boss. ------- From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Tue Aug 5 12:13:46 2008 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 18:13:46 +0100 Subject: If there's anyone in West Yorkshire with a working BBC Master and disc drive, Message-ID: please could you get in touch? I've a disk I need to read, and I've just discovered that my Master no longer feels like working :( ObCCTalk: symptoms are just the message "Acorn MOS, Acorn ADFS" and then a flashing cursor upon switch-on. The drive does click as if it's being selected, and the light comes on, but there are never any head-movement sounds, and nothing further happens onscreen. Thanks, Ed. From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Aug 5 12:34:18 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 12:34:18 -0500 Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone In-Reply-To: <48988161.8030706@oldskool.org> References: <20080805151433.BA5BA56893@mail.wordstock.com> <48988161.8030706@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <48988F1A.3090807@oldskool.org> Jim Leonard wrote: > Bryan Pope wrote: >> Why do they not use a Commodore 64 instead? It has already been >> reduced to a single chip by Jeri Ellsworth and it has enhanced >> graphics that are better then what the original C64 had. > > How so? Sorry, that wasn't clear; I'll restate: How did Jeri's FPGA solution have enhanced graphics that were better than the original? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From brain at jbrain.com Tue Aug 5 12:52:08 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 12:52:08 -0500 Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone In-Reply-To: <48988F1A.3090807@oldskool.org> References: <20080805151433.BA5BA56893@mail.wordstock.com> <48988161.8030706@oldskool.org> <48988F1A.3090807@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <48989348.5050901@jbrain.com> Jim Leonard wrote: > Jim Leonard wrote: >> Bryan Pope wrote: >>> Why do they not use a Commodore 64 instead? It has already been >>> reduced to a single chip by Jeri Ellsworth and it has enhanced >>> graphics that are better then what the original C64 had. >> >> How so? > > Sorry, that wasn't clear; I'll restate: > > How did Jeri's FPGA solution have enhanced graphics that were better > than the original? There are a lot of new features, the main ones: * It provided a DMA engine to blit data on the screen. * It provided more colors per cell * It prvides more color options. no new resolution., though, AFAIK. -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From daviderhart at oldzonian.com Tue Aug 5 13:13:07 2008 From: daviderhart at oldzonian.com (David W. Erhart) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 11:13:07 -0700 Subject: Jolt schematic and pictures? In-Reply-To: <1217901049.4897b1f9b7a1c@panthermail.uwm.edu> References: <489797D3.4080709@brouhaha.com> <4897AFB4.6010601@brouhaha.com> <1217901049.4897b1f9b7a1c@panthermail.uwm.edu> Message-ID: <48989833.4030304@oldzonian.com> wgungfu at uwm.edu wrote: > Does anyone have decent pictures of an assembled Jolt board and/or schematics? > > I'm looking to try and put together a recreation. Thanks in advance! > > > > Marty > > > > Hello Marty, I've forwarded your email to one of the engineers that worked on the Jolt boards. He may contact you directly. david. --- http://www.sageandstride.org From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 5 13:12:57 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 11:12:57 -0700 Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone In-Reply-To: <002c01c8f718$b16e49d0$144add70$@com> References: , <313811.2421.qm@web56214.mail.re3.yahoo.com>, <002c01c8f718$b16e49d0$144add70$@com> Message-ID: <489835B9.1664.5902BF5@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Aug 2008 at 9:31, Bob Armstrong wrote: > Thought #1 - Is Apple going to let them do this? I re-read the article several times and I don't really think that they're setting out to clone the Apple. The article says that the current device in use in India is based on the Apple ][, which is pretty vague. I doubt that it uses the echte Apple firmware. It seems to me that the article is saying that they basically want to upgrade the design with more memory and internet connectivity. The big attraction of the current device in use is that it has a keyboard. I'd humbly suggest that they simply market a keyboard and mouse that interfaces with a mobile phone. There should be more than enough compute power there--and you get connectivity as a side benefit. While learning how to keyboard and use a mouse and perhaps program is a valuable skill, I'm not sure about the idea of a "computer" as a stand-alone device is going to be terribly useful in a heavily Internet-based world. Cheers, Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Tue Aug 5 13:46:39 2008 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 19:46:39 +0100 Subject: If there's anyone in West Yorkshire with a working BBC Master and disc drive, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4898A00F.3040908@philpem.me.uk> listmailgoeshere at gmail.com wrote: > please could you get in touch? I've a disk I need to read, and I've > just discovered that my Master no longer feels like working :( I've got one! It's a Master 128, with a Viglen dual 5.25" floppy drive and a hard drive interface. I can hook up a 3.5" floppy if need be. > ObCCTalk: symptoms are just the message "Acorn MOS, Acorn ADFS" and > then a flashing cursor upon switch-on. The drive does click as if it's > being selected, and the light comes on, but there are never any > head-movement sounds, and nothing further happens onscreen. Either your CMOS battery is flat, or it's set to load ADFS and autoboot. And this website explains how to fix it: http://lionels.orpheusweb.co.uk/CompNyb/TechStuff/8-Bit/Master128/128BatConfig.html The gory details are somewhere in the Master Welcome Guide as well, IIRC. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Aug 5 14:00:23 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 12:00:23 -0700 Subject: dc motors Message-ID: <4898A347.4000105@bitsavers.org> one of these on each rear wheel would be pretty scary http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130244335350 From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 14:10:02 2008 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 12:10:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Make a $12 C64! (Beating a dead horse!) In-Reply-To: <489835B9.1664.5902BF5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <401533.89330.qm@web56211.mail.re3.yahoo.com> I looked up some things. There were two C64 based products from two different companies that used the same ASIC. So I don't think the companies own the intellectual property rights on the chip.. They have the rights to their products. Rumor is that Mammoth ordered many ASICs that were never used. To bad those couldn't be released to the public for people to make their own stuff. Also there are browsers and telnet apps for the C64 Web browsers for the C64 Hyperlink http://www.armory.com/~spectre/cwi/hl/ Singular Browser http://noname.c64.org/csdb/release/?id=30400 Ethernet hardware/software for the C64 http://home.ica.net/~leifb/commodore/ethernet.html I just think that this would be a quicker solution. Or everyone can donate their C64s, but I doubt the power supplies will survive. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Aug 5 14:17:53 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 12:17:53 -0700 Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone In-Reply-To: <20080805151433.BA5BA56893@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20080805151433.BA5BA56893@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <4898A761.9030509@brouhaha.com> Bryan Pope wrote: > Why do they not use a Commodore 64 instead? It has already been My reaction was that either one was a dumb choice. Sure, it would appeal to retro geeks like us, but of what use will it be in the "real world" [*]? Once upon a time there was a lot of educational software for the Apple II, but aside from buying individual titles on eBay, where are you going to get any of it (legally) today? Besides, although the 6502 was a reasonably decent processor in the mid-to-late 1970s, today it won't be any less expensive than an ARM 7 or the like. It seems to me that trying to do further cost reduction of an XO-like device would be more beneficial. Eric From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue Aug 5 14:30:23 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 16:30:23 -0300 Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone References: <20080805151433.BA5BA56893@mail.wordstock.com> <4898A761.9030509@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <04a701c8f732$28b4eb70$03fea8c0@portajara> > Besides, although the 6502 was a reasonably decent processor in the > mid-to-late 1970s, today it won't be any less expensive than an ARM 7 or > the like. Don Lancaster, although he doesn't like anyone who isn't american, was a wise man. He said very smart things on "hardware hacker" (radio electronics/electronics NOW!). One of these was (press "rec", guys): "Doing something for a special market with full knowledge of the inner works and without having all the specific periodicals and publications is one of the dumbest thing on the earth" (ok, it wasn't with this words, but the idea is the same :o)) These guys have NO knowledge of how things works. Doing a WEB BROWSER for an APPLE II??? Besides being a stupid idea, recreating an A2 for $12 for selling for poor people is a dumb ideia on itself. Listen: - Cellphone connection? If the guy is poor, how will he afford a cellphone? - The computer is the easy part, a FPGA can replicate an entire apple//. But what about video!? - Keyboard anyone? - Web browsing in 280 x 192? No. Get back to the drawing board and bring me something USEABLE. Maybe recycling old 486 boards and sending them to India. It is a good destination for all those old PCs. Strip the boards, recycle the cabinets in USA and build everything in a new cab there. What about that? :o) From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Aug 5 14:35:29 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 12:35:29 -0700 Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone In-Reply-To: <4898A761.9030509@brouhaha.com> References: <20080805151433.BA5BA56893@mail.wordstock.com> <4898A761.9030509@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: At 12:17 PM -0700 8/5/08, Eric Smith wrote: >My reaction was that either one was a dumb choice. Sure, it would >appeal to retro geeks like us, but of what use will it be in the >"real world" [*]? Once upon a time there was a lot of educational >software for the Apple II, but aside from buying individual titles >on eBay, where are you going to get any of it (legally) today? > >Besides, although the 6502 was a reasonably decent processor in the >mid-to-late 1970s, today it won't be any less expensive than an ARM >7 or the like. The CPU portion is the part that really had me wondering. How on earth can you manufacture such a device for only $12. As for the software, I believe it has to all be written. I suspect that no existing Apple II software supports Hindi. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Aug 5 14:42:34 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 12:42:34 -0700 Subject: Make a $12 C64! (Beating a dead horse!) In-Reply-To: <401533.89330.qm@web56211.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <401533.89330.qm@web56211.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: At 12:10 PM -0700 8/5/08, Christian Liendo wrote: >Ethernet hardware/software for the C64 >http://home.ica.net/~leifb/commodore/ethernet.html > >I just think that this would be a quicker solution. > >Or everyone can donate their C64s, but I doubt the power supplies >will survive. Ethernet would seriously add to the cost of such a device. This thing has to be striped down to the bare minimum. Granted mass production would reduce costs, so that it wouldn't cost the small fortune I paid to get Ethernet on my C64, but it would still raise the price. Something of far more use is a CF adapter. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Aug 5 14:44:39 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 12:44:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Make a $12 C64! (Beating a dead horse!) In-Reply-To: <401533.89330.qm@web56211.mail.re3.yahoo.com> from Christian Liendo at "Aug 5, 8 12:10:02 pm" Message-ID: <200808051944.m75Jierp014618@floodgap.com> > Web browsers for the C64 > > Hyperlink > http://www.armory.com/~spectre/cwi/hl/ As the author of HyperLink (SUPPLIES!), I can tell you that HyperLink cheats. The server distills HTML down into its own document and image format. This works very well, but it requires a proxy on the other end (which to be sure any cheap PC or Mac with Perl will suffice, but it's not doing the heavy lifting itself). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Never trust a computer you can't lift. ------------------------------------- From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 5 14:40:04 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 20:40:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: If there's anyone in West Yorkshire with a working BBC Master and In-Reply-To: from "listmailgoeshere@gmail.com" at Aug 5, 8 06:13:46 pm Message-ID: > > please could you get in touch? I've a disk I need to read, and I've > just discovered that my Master no longer feels like working :( How long since you last used it? > > ObCCTalk: symptoms are just the message "Acorn MOS, Acorn ADFS" and > then a flashing cursor upon switch-on. The drive does click as if it's Do I take it from this that you don't get the BASIC message? Being a Master, it's quite likrly the internal battery is flat and the configuration RAM is corrupted. There's a key combination to reset this (I forget it, it's in the mnual, though). Try that, and then configure the options you want. If that cures it, replace the batteries... If not, try reseating all the socketed ICs. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 5 14:43:55 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 20:43:55 +0100 (BST) Subject: 9 track tape drive motors - suitable for a go-kart? In-Reply-To: <9952.1217949374@mini> from "Brad Parker" at Aug 5, 8 11:16:14 am Message-ID: > > > This has only a little to do with classic computing, but it seems like > it could generate epic amounts of email, so what the heck... > > Does anything know much about the construction and capacity of a typical > 9 track tape drive motor? Like the big 1 foot x 6" tubes which I've > seen a kennedy or DEC drive? The ones I've seen were a little smaller than that, but quite large none-the-less > > I don't know anything about how they are constructed, but I assume they > are high RPM and high torque. And probably some sort of DC stepper. THey're normally permanent-magnet DC motors with conventional commutatior and brushgear. The capstan motor may well have an ironless rotor (so that it turnes more smoothly with no 'cogging'), the spool motors are normally more conventional. I don;t think any of them would have the power for a go-cart. In general wound-field motors develop more torgue than permanent magnet ones (althogh I've worked on cars with permanent-magnet starter motors, so you can get sizeable torques using modern permanent magnets). Typically tape drive motors take a few amps at 12V or 24V, I would think a go-kart motor would take about 10 times the current at least. -tony From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Aug 5 14:50:42 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 15:50:42 -0400 Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone In-Reply-To: <04a701c8f732$28b4eb70$03fea8c0@portajara> References: <20080805151433.BA5BA56893@mail.wordstock.com> <4898A761.9030509@brouhaha.com> <04a701c8f732$28b4eb70$03fea8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <4898AF12.70202@gmail.com> Alexandre Souza wrote: > These guys have NO knowledge of how things works. Doing a WEB BROWSER > for an APPLE II??? Besides being a stupid idea, recreating an A2 for $12 > for selling for poor people is a dumb ideia on itself. Listen: > > - Cellphone connection? If the guy is poor, how will he afford a > cellphone? That's actually the easy part. Cell service in rural India is *substantially* cheaper than most other places. There will, before too long, be more cellphones than landlines in India. > - The computer is the easy part, a FPGA can replicate an entire > apple//. But what about video!? Yup, that's the hard part. Doing a built-in display for $12. > - Keyboard anyone? Probably not a problem. There are tremendously cheap keyboards available for OEM use now. > - Web browsing in 280 x 192? Could be web clipping. > No. Get back to the drawing board and bring me something USEABLE. > Maybe recycling old 486 boards and sending them to India. It is a good > destination for all those old PCs. Strip the boards, recycle the > cabinets in USA and build everything in a new cab there. What about > that? :o) Still wouldn't work. These ideas all assume a high literacy rate, and reliable power. Neither of which exist in rural India yet. They need books, not computers. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Aug 5 14:50:42 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 15:50:42 -0400 Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone In-Reply-To: <04a701c8f732$28b4eb70$03fea8c0@portajara> References: <20080805151433.BA5BA56893@mail.wordstock.com> <4898A761.9030509@brouhaha.com> <04a701c8f732$28b4eb70$03fea8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <4898AF12.70202@gmail.com> Alexandre Souza wrote: > These guys have NO knowledge of how things works. Doing a WEB BROWSER > for an APPLE II??? Besides being a stupid idea, recreating an A2 for $12 > for selling for poor people is a dumb ideia on itself. Listen: > > - Cellphone connection? If the guy is poor, how will he afford a > cellphone? That's actually the easy part. Cell service in rural India is *substantially* cheaper than most other places. There will, before too long, be more cellphones than landlines in India. > - The computer is the easy part, a FPGA can replicate an entire > apple//. But what about video!? Yup, that's the hard part. Doing a built-in display for $12. > - Keyboard anyone? Probably not a problem. There are tremendously cheap keyboards available for OEM use now. > - Web browsing in 280 x 192? Could be web clipping. > No. Get back to the drawing board and bring me something USEABLE. > Maybe recycling old 486 boards and sending them to India. It is a good > destination for all those old PCs. Strip the boards, recycle the > cabinets in USA and build everything in a new cab there. What about > that? :o) Still wouldn't work. These ideas all assume a high literacy rate, and reliable power. Neither of which exist in rural India yet. They need books, not computers. Peace... Sridhar From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Tue Aug 5 14:51:56 2008 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 15:51:56 -0400 Subject: Make a $12 C64! (Beating a dead horse!) References: <401533.89330.qm@web56211.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <18584.44892.623073.400112@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Zane" == Zane H Healy writes: Zane> At 12:10 PM -0700 8/5/08, Christian Liendo wrote: >> Ethernet hardware/software for the C64 >> http://home.ica.net/~leifb/commodore/ethernet.html >> >> I just think that this would be a quicker solution. >> >> Or everyone can donate their C64s, but I doubt the power supplies >> will survive. Zane> Ethernet would seriously add to the cost of such a device. These days, Ethernet is just a small corner of a modest FPGA. It might even be free (see www.opencores.org). Ditto for video, if the resolution isn't too high. In fact you can put a mainframe (including a modest amount of main memory) onto a decent FPGA without pushing hard. paul From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Aug 5 15:17:32 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 16:17:32 -0400 Subject: LocalTalk Message-ID: <4898B55C.7090901@gmail.com> Hi. I'm looking for a LocalTalk->Ethernet bridge and some LocalTalk cables. Anyone have any available? Peace... Sridhar From blstuart at bellsouth.net Tue Aug 5 15:21:05 2008 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 20:21:05 +0000 Subject: LocalTalk In-Reply-To: <4898B55C.7090901@gmail.com> Message-ID: <080520082021.17177.4898B63100061BA60000431922218683269B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> > Hi. I'm looking for a LocalTalk->Ethernet bridge and some LocalTalk > cables. Anyone have any available? Don't have anything available, but I just picked up an Asante MicroPrint bridge on ebay. Sometimes they go for more than is justified, but if you watch, you can get a decent deal on them. BLS From ian_primus at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 15:25:01 2008 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 13:25:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: LocalTalk In-Reply-To: <4898B55C.7090901@gmail.com> Message-ID: <413962.74585.qm@web52710.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Look for those old third party LocalTalk dongles, those used normal telephone wire instead of those funny three pin mini-din cables. -Ian --- On Tue, 8/5/08, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > From: Sridhar Ayengar > Subject: LocalTalk > To: "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Tuesday, August 5, 2008, 4:17 PM > Hi. I'm looking for a LocalTalk->Ethernet bridge and > some LocalTalk > cables. Anyone have any available? > > Peace... Sridhar From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Aug 5 15:32:10 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 14:32:10 -0600 Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone In-Reply-To: <4898AF12.70202@gmail.com> References: <20080805151433.BA5BA56893@mail.wordstock.com> <4898A761.9030509@brouhaha.com> <04a701c8f732$28b4eb70$03fea8c0@portajara> <4898AF12.70202@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4898B8CA.5010307@jetnet.ab.ca> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > > They need books, not computers. > No a goat ... or some other item to break the poverty cycle in inda... > Peace... Sridhar > As for MIT wanting a $12 Apple clone... you can bet MIT is out make money, not to promote { free ideas?? in } education. Look what happend to Pascal from them if I remember right. From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Aug 5 15:31:54 2008 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 13:31:54 -0700 Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone In-Reply-To: References: <20080805151433.BA5BA56893@mail.wordstock.com><4898A761.9030509@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: From: Zane H. Healy Sent: Tuesday, August 05, 2008 12:35 PM > As for the software, I believe it has to all be written. I suspect > that no existing Apple II software supports Hindi. Or any of the other official languages of India. In particular, Bangalore (Bengaluru) is located in the state of Karnataka, where Kannada is the official language. Even a literate person there is likely to know only Kannada and English (which may have the status of co-official language in that state, but I do not know). But Sridhar's point cannot be overstated: Simple literacy is much more important than computers of any ilk in rural India. Thanks, Rich From coredump at gifford.co.uk Tue Aug 5 16:01:21 2008 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 22:01:21 +0100 Subject: If there's anyone in West Yorkshire with a working BBC Master and disc drive, In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4898BFA1.2010202@gifford.co.uk> listmailgoeshere at gmail.com wrote: > please could you get in touch? I've a disk I need to read, and I've > just discovered that my Master no longer feels like working :( I have two working BBC Masters, but I'm in north Bristol. > ObCCTalk: symptoms are just the message "Acorn MOS, Acorn ADFS" and > then a flashing cursor upon switch-on. The drive does click as if it's > being selected, and the light comes on, but there are never any > head-movement sounds, and nothing further happens onscreen. As others have said, this could be a dead battery in the machine. Well worth trying to fix! Some hints that worked for me: http://www.sprow.co.uk/bbc/doctor.htm -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Tue Aug 5 16:15:22 2008 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 14:15:22 -0700 Subject: PC Unix wanted In-Reply-To: <13E34327-4699-4E72-976D-F0224971FC16@gmail.com> References: <13E34327-4699-4E72-976D-F0224971FC16@gmail.com> Message-ID: Oh how nice it would be to have one of these again. At one point, I had Interactive's 386/ix and SCO's Open Desktop... there was Microport's system, Esix (from Everex?), Venturcom's Venix, and others I'm sure I have forgotten. I just remember the wall of manuals that came with these systems. :) Mark On Tue, Aug 5, 2008 at 10:27 AM, Tom Manos wrote: > Does anyone have one of the PC SVR4 releases from the early '90s? I'm > looking for a complete set of Interactive, Microport, or Esix (have I > forgotten any?). Prefer complete docs, and would rather have tape install > than floppy, but I'll go either way. I'm happy to pay something reasonable. > -Tom > From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Tue Aug 5 16:40:12 2008 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 22:40:12 +0100 Subject: MicroVAX 4000-105 Fast Wide Differential option? In-Reply-To: <200808051624.m75GOsic013215@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: On 5/8/08 17:24, "Zane H. Healy" wrote: >> I'm pretty sure that wasn't a DEC option in the UK, 2 DEC resellers I know >> agree so has anyone else heard of this? I wasn't allowed to shut the machine >> down so I couldn't check for manufacturers or part numbers..... VMS >> designator for the drive was DKW100 which further points at it being wide >> SCSI.... >> >> cheers! >> >> adrian/witchy > > My first thought would be that it's a 90's era upgrade from Nemonix as I > believe they did (and still do) most of the VAX 4000 upgrades. > http://www.nemonixengineering.com/ Thanks for that Zane, I've mailed them to see if anyone remembers :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Aug 5 16:44:00 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 14:44:00 -0700 Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone In-Reply-To: References: <20080805151433.BA5BA56893@mail.wordstock.com> <4898A761.9030509@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4898C9A0.90505@brouhaha.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > The CPU portion is the part that really had me wondering. How on earth > can you manufacture such a device for only $12. I don't know how you get it down to under $12, but clearly the CPU has to be inside an ASIC, and the cost of the ASIC has to be under $1. It won't particularly affect the cost for the CPU to be a 32-bit RISC rather than a 6502. The RISC might take more transistors than the 6502, but the transistors are essentially free, since the ASIC will be pad-limited. The use of an ARM processor specifically might be more expensive than a different 32-bit RISC, just because of licensing fees to ARM Ltd., but other suitable choices exist. > As for the software, I believe it has to all be written. I suspect that > no existing Apple II software supports Hindi. All the more reason to use a modern processor architecture rather than a 6502. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Aug 5 16:45:20 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 14:45:20 -0700 Subject: Make a $12 C64! (Beating a dead horse!) In-Reply-To: References: <401533.89330.qm@web56211.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4898C9F0.4050109@brouhaha.com> Zane H. Healy wrote: > Ethernet would seriously add to the cost of such a device. Only the cost of the magnetics and jack, which is probably less than $0.50 in high volume. The MAC and PHY would be part of the ASIC. From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Aug 5 17:02:23 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 15:02:23 -0700 Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone In-Reply-To: <4898B8CA.5010307@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20080805151433.BA5BA56893@mail.wordstock.com> <4898A761.9030509@brouhaha.com> <04a701c8f732$28b4eb70$03fea8c0@portajara> <4898AF12.70202@gmail.com> <4898B8CA.5010307@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4898CDEF.2020707@brouhaha.com> bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > As for MIT wanting a $12 Apple clone... you can bet MIT is > out make money, not to promote { free ideas?? in } education. > Look what happend to Pascal from them if I remember right. What did MIT do to Pascal? From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Aug 5 17:04:17 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 15:04:17 -0700 Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone In-Reply-To: <4898AF12.70202@gmail.com> References: <20080805151433.BA5BA56893@mail.wordstock.com> <4898A761.9030509@brouhaha.com> <04a701c8f732$28b4eb70$03fea8c0@portajara> <4898AF12.70202@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4898CE61.7050503@brouhaha.com> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > They need books, not computers. That was one of the major criticisms of the OLPC, but hte critics didn't understand that the OLPC with suitable software and e-texts was a LESS EXPENSIVE replacement for textbooks. Note that I'm not claiming that this will be true of the $12 Apple II clone, or that such is the intent. Eric From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Aug 5 17:12:03 2008 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 18:12:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PC Unix wanted In-Reply-To: References: <13E34327-4699-4E72-976D-F0224971FC16@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Aug 2008, Mark Davidson wrote: > Oh how nice it would be to have one of these again. At one point, I > had Interactive's 386/ix and SCO's Open Desktop... there was > Microport's system, Esix (from Everex?), Venturcom's Venix, and others > I'm sure I have forgotten. I just remember the wall of manuals that > came with these systems. :) I still have my ESIX 4.0.3A (yes, from Everex) installation from circa 1992. It's in a large cube, containing the manuals and software on 5.25" diskettes. The manuals occasionally come in handy, for things like SVR4 curses. My system was listed in Nixpub: Updated Last Telephone # Sys-name Location Baud Hours ----- ------------ -------- ----------- ------- ----- 08/92 814-353-0566 cpumagic Bellefonte PA 12/24/96/14 24 80386, ESIX 4.0.3a (SVR4); Dual Standard (v.32/v.32bis/HST); The Centre Programmers Unit BBS, custom BBS software (Micro Magic); Files available: UNIX, GNU, X, ESIX, MSDOS tools and libraries; No fee but up/download ratios enforced. Contact: Mike Loewen at mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us or ...psuvax1!cpumagic!mloewen That phone number is, of course, no longer in service. :-) I had a UUCP dialup connection through the local University. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Aug 5 17:21:37 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 16:21:37 -0600 Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone In-Reply-To: <4898CDEF.2020707@brouhaha.com> References: <20080805151433.BA5BA56893@mail.wordstock.com> <4898A761.9030509@brouhaha.com> <04a701c8f732$28b4eb70$03fea8c0@portajara> <4898AF12.70202@gmail.com> <4898B8CA.5010307@jetnet.ab.ca> <4898CDEF.2020707@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <4898D271.6040002@jetnet.ab.ca> Eric Smith wrote: > bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >> As for MIT wanting a $12 Apple clone... you can bet MIT is >> out make money, not to promote { free ideas?? in } education. >> Look what happend to Pascal from them if I remember right. > > What did MIT do to Pascal? > It could be the other large learning center on west coast. If I could remember who made the p-code I could look it up on the web, but it was the other OS for the PC after DOS and CP/M86. From michaelgreen42 at comcast.net Tue Aug 5 17:21:11 2008 From: michaelgreen42 at comcast.net (Mike) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 15:21:11 -0700 Subject: Altos Computers near Seattle WA In-Reply-To: <200808052213.m75MDcsn010443@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200808052213.m75MDcsn010443@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <7B461F7FF22144BD9AEBB4960F2C35F8@pal> I just bought up a large lot of vintage stuff and found 3 Altos computers in the lot. Not exactly my cup of tea for collecting but I know someone out there will be interested in these They appear in good shape overall (no broken pieces or anything). I hate eBay so thought I would post these here. I would prefer local pickup but I'm happy to ship too (they aren't that big). I'm taking offers for one or all. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 5 17:36:05 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 15:36:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone In-Reply-To: <002c01c8f718$b16e49d0$144add70$@com> References: <313811.2421.qm@web56214.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <002c01c8f718$b16e49d0$144add70$@com> Message-ID: <20080805153357.A42579@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 5 Aug 2008, Bob Armstrong wrote: > >http://news.bostonherald.com/business/technology/general/view/2008_08_04_De > signers_on_quest_to_build__12_computer/ > Thought #1 - Is Apple going to let them do this? They can build all the > hardware they want, but Apple still owns the copyright for the Apple ][ > firmware. Unless Apple goes along with it, they aren't going to be able to > (legally, that is) duplicate the ROM contents or use any of the Apple owned > software. There exist non-infringing copies of the Apple ][ firmware - Basis, Franklin, and Laser128? > Thought #2 - They want somebody to write a web browser for an Apple ][ > ???? A TCP/IP stack I can see, but a whole browser? Unless they're > thinking about using Lynx, I suspect not. Aw. I like Lynx. Can a modern style browser be written without the bloat? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From listmailgoeshere at gmail.com Tue Aug 5 17:36:29 2008 From: listmailgoeshere at gmail.com (listmailgoeshere at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 23:36:29 +0100 Subject: If there's anyone in West Yorkshire with a working BBC Master and In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 5, 2008 at 8:40 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> please could you get in touch? I've a disk I need to read, and I've >> just discovered that my Master no longer feels like working :( > > How long since you last used it? Not totally sure, but around a year. >> ObCCTalk: symptoms are just the message "Acorn MOS, Acorn ADFS" and >> then a flashing cursor upon switch-on. The drive does click as if it's > Do I take it from this that you don't get the BASIC message? Indeed you don't. However, by pressing Ctrl-F BREAK, you can get a * prompt, and then typing BASIC and hitting Return will drop you into BASIC. The only testing I did after that was a simple 10 PRINT "HELLO", 20 GOTO 10, RUN. It worked. > Being a Master, it's quite likrly the internal battery is flat and the > configuration RAM is corrupted. There's a key combination to reset this > (I forget it, it's in the mnual, though). Try that, and then configure > the options you want. If that cures it, replace the batteries... >From the reading up I was doing earlier this evening, it's switching on whilst holding down R. Ed. From sellam at vintagetech.com Tue Aug 5 17:37:18 2008 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 15:37:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone Message-ID: A few (worthless) comments: 1) I agree with Eric Smith for the most part. 2) This will FAIL. 3) As Eric said, it's a cool idea for us retro-dorks, but for real people they will wonder why someone bothered to hand them a cheezy video game console for $12 that they earned working for four cents an hour from 6am until midnight seven days a week for eight years. 4) The title of this thread is dumb, but at least it's lame. 5) If Nicolas Negroponte (brother of John Negroponte, war criminal) finally gets his act together and is actually able to produce the OLPC for $100 then it would render this $12 thing a dumb joke. The OLPC is a real computer. I've used one. It is made from the element Awesome (symbol Aw). This thing being described wouldn't even be 1/12 of an OLPC. 6) www.xgamestation.com -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Aug 5 17:44:25 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 15:44:25 -0700 Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone In-Reply-To: <4898D271.6040002@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20080805151433.BA5BA56893@mail.wordstock.com> <4898A761.9030509@brouhaha.com> <04a701c8f732$28b4eb70$03fea8c0@portajara> <4898AF12.70202@gmail.com> <4898B8CA.5010307@jetnet.ab.ca> <4898CDEF.2020707@brouhaha.com> <4898D271.6040002@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4898D7C9.2090903@brouhaha.com> bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > As for MIT wanting a $12 Apple clone... you can bet MIT is > out make money, not to promote { free ideas?? in } education. > Look what happend to Pascal from them if I remember right. I wrote: > What did MIT do to Pascal? bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > It could be the other large learning center on west coast. > If I could remember who made the p-code I could look > it up on the web, but it was the other OS for the PC > after DOS and CP/M86. UCSD? I still don't understand what you are saying "happened to Pascal from them"? Eric From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Aug 5 17:44:36 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 15:44:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone In-Reply-To: <4898D271.6040002@jetnet.ab.ca> from "bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca" at "Aug 5, 8 04:21:37 pm" Message-ID: <200808052244.m75Miafp032342@floodgap.com> > > What did MIT do to Pascal? > It could be the other large learning center on west coast. > If I could remember who made the p-code I could look > it up on the web, but it was the other OS for the PC > after DOS and CP/M86. P-code was UCSD (University of California San Diego), my alma mater. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Put down your guns, it's Weasel Stomping Day! ------------------------------ From sellam at vintagetech.com Tue Aug 5 17:46:02 2008 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 15:46:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone Message-ID: 7) Right said Fred: "There exist non-infringing copies of the Apple ][ firmware - Basis, Franklin, and Laser128?" - I had the same idea...use the Franklin 1000 ROMs because they are legal and I doubt there is anyone left from Franklin to go after you. 8) Chuck Guzis made the most sensible suggestion I've heard in this entire thread: "I'd humbly suggest that they simply market a keyboard and mouse that interfaces with a mobile phone. There should be more than enough compute power there--and you get connectivity as a side benefit." It's genius in its simplicity. Chuck, I'll write up the business plan, you go find some funding :) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 5 17:49:06 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 15:49:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone In-Reply-To: <4898CDEF.2020707@brouhaha.com> References: <20080805151433.BA5BA56893@mail.wordstock.com> <4898A761.9030509@brouhaha.com> <04a701c8f732$28b4eb70$03fea8c0@portajara> <4898AF12.70202@gmail.com> <4898B8CA.5010307@jetnet.ab.ca> <4898CDEF.2020707@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20080805154830.J42579@shell.lmi.net> > > As for MIT wanting a $12 Apple clone... you can bet MIT is > > out make money, not to promote { free ideas?? in } education. > > Look what happend to Pascal from them if I remember right. > > What did MIT do to Pascal? Prob'ly thinking of UCSD (which is NOT MIT) From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Aug 5 17:51:54 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 15:51:54 -0700 Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4898D98A.9020801@brouhaha.com> Sellam Ismail wrote: > 5) If Nicolas Negroponte (brother of John Negroponte, war criminal) > finally gets his act together and is actually able to produce the OLPC for > $100 [...] Another criticism of OLPC, which I don't think you're trying to make, but that many others have, is that they failed to make a $100 laptop, since the price is around $188. I'm not sure whether it's even possible that they could actually make the XO product (or one substantially equivalent) for $100. I speculate that they may have deliberately set their target somewhat unrealistically low. If their original plan had been to make a $200 laptop, it might have wound up costing $350. Eric From sellam at vintagetech.com Tue Aug 5 17:52:15 2008 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 15:52:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 9 track tape drive motors - suitable for a go-kart? Message-ID: Brad, I suggest a much better use: turn it into a windmill. I finally got my hands on a motor from a 9-track I scrapped. It puts out several amps at 24V+ when I hand-spin it. It will do nicely as a current source to charge a lead-acid battery, especially where I live: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altamont_Pass_Wind_Farm As Tony already mentioned, it won't have enough power output to be good for a go-kart. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Aug 5 17:57:27 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 15:57:27 -0700 Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone In-Reply-To: <200808052244.m75Miafp032342@floodgap.com> References: <200808052244.m75Miafp032342@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4898DAD7.9060803@brouhaha.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > P-code was UCSD (University of California San Diego), my alma mater. The UCSD p-system used p-code, but it was nowhere near the first Pascal compiler/interpreter system to do so. From sellam at vintagetech.com Tue Aug 5 18:00:44 2008 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 16:00:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone Message-ID: Eric Smith did say: > Another criticism of OLPC, which I don't think you're trying to make, > but that many others have, is that they failed to make a $100 laptop, > since the price is around $188. That's what I was getting at when I said he needed to get his act together, i.e. try to get it down to $100. But even at $188, it is still a spectacular little machine. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Aug 5 18:11:19 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 17:11:19 -0600 Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone In-Reply-To: <200808052244.m75Miafp032342@floodgap.com> References: <200808052244.m75Miafp032342@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4898DE17.6040608@jetnet.ab.ca> Cameron Kaiser wrote: > P-code was UCSD (University of California San Diego), my alma mater. > > Well I knew It was a BIG learning center. Intellectual property and $$$ for ideas, don't promote the exchange new ideas in the computer field. It is just strange that you got all that hype about Pascal and other laguages after Apple II came out with pascal, and then nothing is heard about it again. Just what happened to it? From sellam at vintagetech.com Tue Aug 5 18:11:31 2008 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 16:11:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Computer collectors are no longer the dweebiest people in the world... Message-ID: No, now we can point at the toaster collectors: http://www.toastermuseum.com Navigate your way over to "SPECIALS" and then "What is it worth?" to read up on toaster pricing. It will seem strangely familiar. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Aug 5 18:18:46 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 16:18:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone In-Reply-To: from Sellam Ismail at "Aug 5, 8 04:00:44 pm" Message-ID: <200808052318.m75NIk6U031910@floodgap.com> > > Another criticism of OLPC, which I don't think you're trying to make, > > but that many others have, is that they failed to make a $100 laptop, > > since the price is around $188. > > That's what I was getting at when I said he needed to get his act > together, i.e. try to get it down to $100. But even at $188, it is still > a spectacular little machine. I love mine. I have it hacked up to death and it's a great little unit. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Un*x is the worst operating system ever, except for all the others. -------- From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Aug 5 18:19:30 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 16:19:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone In-Reply-To: <4898DAD7.9060803@brouhaha.com> from Eric Smith at "Aug 5, 8 03:57:27 pm" Message-ID: <200808052319.m75NJUuj015132@floodgap.com> > > P-code was UCSD (University of California San Diego), my alma mater. > > The UCSD p-system used p-code, but it was nowhere near the first Pascal > compiler/interpreter system to do so. And the others were ... ? :) I'm pretty sure that the UCSD p-system was the only major one for Pascal though. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- BOND THEME NOW PLAYING: "The World is Not Enough" -------------------------- From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Aug 5 18:29:47 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 16:29:47 -0700 Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone In-Reply-To: <4898DE17.6040608@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200808052244.m75Miafp032342@floodgap.com> <4898DE17.6040608@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4898E26B.3000803@brouhaha.com> bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > Well I knew It was a BIG learning center. Intellectual property and > $$$ for ideas, don't promote the exchange new ideas in the computer > field. It is just strange that you got all that hype about Pascal and > other laguages after > Apple II came out with pascal, and then nothing is heard about it again. > Just what happened to it? IMNSHO, UCSD contributed more to the popularity of Pascal than anyone else with the possible exception of Borland's Turbo Pascal. If Pascal didn't remain in the forefront, it's certainly not because of any improper or negligent act on UCSD's part. My own take on why Pascal has mostly faded away is that it was intended as an instructional language, and was missing features people needed for real software development. UCSD added some of those features, and Turbo Pascal added more, but there was never a usable Pascal standard. ISO Level 1 Pascal just doesn't cut it. A perhaps slightly more interesting question is why Ada didn't achieve greater popularity than it has. Then again, Algol 60 is an improvement over many of its successors. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Tue Aug 5 18:32:31 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 16:32:31 -0700 Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone In-Reply-To: <200808052319.m75NJUuj015132@floodgap.com> References: <200808052319.m75NJUuj015132@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4898E30F.2000100@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > The UCSD p-system used p-code, but it was nowhere near the first Pascal > compiler/interpreter system to do so. Cameron Kaiser wrote: > And the others were ... ? :) Earlier Pascal implementations, from Wirth, Ammann, and others. IIRC, the UCSD Pascal compiler is actually derived from Amman's P2 compiler. The specific instruction encodings changed, but the concept is the same. From tosteve at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 19:12:39 2008 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 17:12:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: I'm driving from LA to midwest - any systems to trade? Message-ID: <578329.56034.qm@web51609.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hello, I will possibly be driving from Los Angeles to Las Vegas to Denver to Omaha to South Dakota (and back) in early September. If you're along the route, I'm interested in trading some of my old computer systems for others of similar vintage/value/scarcity/coolness/whatever. Browse my site http://oldcomputers.net/ to see if there's anything that catches your eye. Not everything is available, of course, but feel free to ask. Steven Stengel. From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Aug 5 19:57:56 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 17:57:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> Another criticism of OLPC, which I don't think you're trying to make, >> but that many others have, is that they failed to make a $100 laptop, >> since the price is around $188. > > That's what I was getting at when I said he needed to get his act > together, i.e. try to get it down to $100. But even at $188, it is still > a spectacular little machine. I agree. I got one through that disaster known as "Give one, get one". Neat little machine. I was running it off a 12V car battery this past weekend so my wife could use it to process credit card transactions at a craft show. :) The only people that commented on the machine were those that already knew what it was. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From steve at radiorobots.com Tue Aug 5 20:01:21 2008 From: steve at radiorobots.com (steve stutman) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 21:01:21 -0400 Subject: Computer collectors are no longer the dweebiest people in the world... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4898F7E1.1000907@radiorobots.com> Sellam Ismail wrote: > No, now we can point at the toaster collectors: > > http://www.toastermuseum.com > > Navigate your way over to "SPECIALS" and then "What is it worth?" to read > up on toaster pricing. It will seem strangely familiar. > > This is very judgmental and technist. I am surprised to see such comments posted here. I suppose, now you will go after the vacuum cleaner belt people? Steve From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Tue Aug 5 20:14:32 2008 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 21:14:32 -0400 Subject: PC Unix wanted In-Reply-To: References: <13E34327-4699-4E72-976D-F0224971FC16@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4affc5e0808051814k50f7c5e5xae45cee68e470664@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Aug 5, 2008 at 5:15 PM, Mark Davidson wrote: > Oh how nice it would be to have one of these again. At one point, I > had Interactive's 386/ix and SCO's Open Desktop... there was > Microport's system, Esix (from Everex?), Venturcom's Venix, and others > On Tue, Aug 5, 2008 at 10:27 AM, Tom Manos wrote: >> Does anyone have one of the PC SVR4 releases from the early '90s? I'm If anyone is interested I have a full set of UNIX System V/386 Release 3.2. 28 5.25 floppies, and a tape cartridge (DC-600? DC-300? It says 450ft, density 10,000ftpi) For all I know the media is nice decoration only, I have never tried to stuff it into a drive. OTOH, it is quite possible the media has NEVER seen a drive since leaving the factory in whenever it was shipped. It still has the (unfilled) "Intel Software License and Registration Certificate". (The box came from McGill University) And about a foot high stack of books, slight water damage (only 2 books the rest looks pristine). It's all from Intel, copyright says 1988. It's in Montreal, Quebec. Shipping would be expensive - it's a heavy box... But I'd be happy to see it out of here, I was about ready to toss it out. (Maybe you can get der Mouse to somehow shuffle it closer to you, he lives walking distance from me - but he doesn't see my mails due to his Gmail filter :-) Ideally someone shows up at my place, and takes the box away. Oh, the city does that. OK, someone who actually _wants_ it should take it away. ;-) Joe. From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Tue Aug 5 20:14:32 2008 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 21:14:32 -0400 Subject: PC Unix wanted In-Reply-To: References: <13E34327-4699-4E72-976D-F0224971FC16@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4affc5e0808051814k50f7c5e5xae45cee68e470664@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Aug 5, 2008 at 5:15 PM, Mark Davidson wrote: > Oh how nice it would be to have one of these again. At one point, I > had Interactive's 386/ix and SCO's Open Desktop... there was > Microport's system, Esix (from Everex?), Venturcom's Venix, and others > On Tue, Aug 5, 2008 at 10:27 AM, Tom Manos wrote: >> Does anyone have one of the PC SVR4 releases from the early '90s? I'm If anyone is interested I have a full set of UNIX System V/386 Release 3.2. 28 5.25 floppies, and a tape cartridge (DC-600? DC-300? It says 450ft, density 10,000ftpi) For all I know the media is nice decoration only, I have never tried to stuff it into a drive. OTOH, it is quite possible the media has NEVER seen a drive since leaving the factory in whenever it was shipped. It still has the (unfilled) "Intel Software License and Registration Certificate". (The box came from McGill University) And about a foot high stack of books, slight water damage (only 2 books the rest looks pristine). It's all from Intel, copyright says 1988. It's in Montreal, Quebec. Shipping would be expensive - it's a heavy box... But I'd be happy to see it out of here, I was about ready to toss it out. (Maybe you can get der Mouse to somehow shuffle it closer to you, he lives walking distance from me - but he doesn't see my mails due to his Gmail filter :-) Ideally someone shows up at my place, and takes the box away. Oh, the city does that. OK, someone who actually _wants_ it should take it away. ;-) Joe. From mdavidson1963 at gmail.com Tue Aug 5 20:41:05 2008 From: mdavidson1963 at gmail.com (Mark Davidson) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 18:41:05 -0700 Subject: PC Unix wanted In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0808051814k50f7c5e5xae45cee68e470664@mail.gmail.com> References: <13E34327-4699-4E72-976D-F0224971FC16@gmail.com> <4affc5e0808051814k50f7c5e5xae45cee68e470664@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: If no one else wants it, I'd love to know how much it would cost to ship it to San Jose, CA. I have the room and would love to save this (and try out the media!). Mark On Tue, Aug 5, 2008 at 6:14 PM, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > On Tue, Aug 5, 2008 at 5:15 PM, Mark Davidson wrote: >> Oh how nice it would be to have one of these again. At one point, I >> had Interactive's 386/ix and SCO's Open Desktop... there was >> Microport's system, Esix (from Everex?), Venturcom's Venix, and others > >> On Tue, Aug 5, 2008 at 10:27 AM, Tom Manos wrote: >>> Does anyone have one of the PC SVR4 releases from the early '90s? I'm > > If anyone is interested I have a full set of UNIX System V/386 Release 3.2. > 28 5.25 floppies, and a tape cartridge (DC-600? DC-300? It says 450ft, > density 10,000ftpi) > For all I know the media is nice decoration only, I have never tried > to stuff it into a drive. > > OTOH, it is quite possible the media has NEVER seen a drive since > leaving the factory in whenever it was shipped. It still has the > (unfilled) "Intel Software License and Registration Certificate". > (The box came from McGill University) > > And about a foot high stack of books, slight water damage (only 2 > books the rest looks pristine). It's all from Intel, copyright says > 1988. > > It's in Montreal, Quebec. Shipping would be expensive - it's a heavy > box... But I'd be happy to see it out of here, I was about ready to > toss it out. > > (Maybe you can get der Mouse to somehow shuffle it closer to you, he > lives walking distance from me - but he doesn't see my mails due to > his Gmail filter :-) > > Ideally someone shows up at my place, and takes the box away. Oh, the > city does that. OK, someone who actually _wants_ it should take it > away. ;-) > Joe. > From James at jdfogg.com Tue Aug 5 21:02:08 2008 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 22:02:08 -0400 Subject: Computer collectors are no longer the dweebiest people in the world... Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A922159@sbs.jdfogg.com> > > No, now we can point at the toaster collectors: > > > > http://www.toastermuseum.com > > > > Navigate your way over to "SPECIALS" and then "What is it worth?" to > read > > up on toaster pricing. It will seem strangely familiar. > > > > > This is very judgmental and technist. > > I am surprised to see such comments posted here. > > I suppose, now you will go after the vacuum cleaner belt people? I don't know about vacuum cleaner belt collecting, but I've seen some examples of lovely old (and odd) vacuum cleaners. I find almost anything old to be interesting. Lately I've been looking at old vacuum tube intercoms (the kind with art deco cases). From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Tue Aug 5 21:11:05 2008 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 19:11:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <525878.92549.qm@web56206.mail.re3.yahoo.com> You can get keyboards for Palm based phones and some phones have keyboards, problem is the phone is like $300.00. Ever try and read the web on these things read a text file? What should make money? Video output for phones so you can put them on TV and finally have a screen big enough to read. Also you can see your photos and videos you make. From sellam at vintagetech.com Tue Aug 5 21:12:58 2008 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 19:12:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Computer collectors are no longer the dweebiest people in the world... Message-ID: The toaster people can point at the vacuum cleaner collectors. Although the vacuum guys do have conventions and competitions with their collections, not unlike the VCF :) (Saw it once on The Daily Show) -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Aug 5 21:29:46 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 22:29:46 -0400 Subject: PC Unix wanted In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0808051814k50f7c5e5xae45cee68e470664@mail.gmail.com> References: <13E34327-4699-4E72-976D-F0224971FC16@gmail.com> <4affc5e0808051814k50f7c5e5xae45cee68e470664@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200808052229.46840.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 05 August 2008 21:14, Joachim Thiemann wrote: > On Tue, Aug 5, 2008 at 5:15 PM, Mark Davidson wrote: > > Oh how nice it would be to have one of these again. At one point, I > > had Interactive's 386/ix and SCO's Open Desktop... there was > > Microport's system, Esix (from Everex?), Venturcom's Venix, and others > > > > On Tue, Aug 5, 2008 at 10:27 AM, Tom Manos wrote: > >> Does anyone have one of the PC SVR4 releases from the early '90s? I'm > > If anyone is interested I have a full set of UNIX System V/386 Release 3.2. > 28 5.25 floppies, and a tape cartridge (DC-600? DC-300? It says 450ft, > density 10,000ftpi) I have some of those 450ft tapes, I think they're DC-300XL. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Aug 5 21:34:04 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 22:34:04 -0400 Subject: Computer collectors are no longer the dweebiest people in the world... In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A922159@sbs.jdfogg.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A922159@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <200808052234.04263.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 05 August 2008 22:02, James Fogg wrote: > > > No, now we can point at the toaster collectors: > > > > > > http://www.toastermuseum.com > > > > > > Navigate your way over to "SPECIALS" and then "What is it worth?" to > > > > read > > > > > up on toaster pricing. It will seem strangely familiar. > > > > This is very judgmental and technist. > > > > I am surprised to see such comments posted here. > > > > I suppose, now you will go after the vacuum cleaner belt people? > > I don't know about vacuum cleaner belt collecting, but I've seen some > examples of lovely old (and odd) vacuum cleaners. > > I find almost anything old to be interesting. Lately I've been looking > at old vacuum tube intercoms (the kind with art deco cases). What make? I'll bet I have manuals for some of that stuff... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From spc at conman.org Tue Aug 5 21:44:37 2008 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 22:44:37 -0400 Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone In-Reply-To: <4898E26B.3000803@brouhaha.com> References: <200808052244.m75Miafp032342@floodgap.com> <4898DE17.6040608@jetnet.ab.ca> <4898E26B.3000803@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20080806024437.GC5832@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Eric Smith once stated: > > A perhaps slightly more interesting question is why Ada didn't achieve > greater popularity than it has. There are programmers out there that *hate* having to declare variables before using them (much less giving them a defined type---"that's premature optimization, and premature optimization is eeeeeeevil [1]") and you wonder why Ada didn't achieve greater popularity? It's about the strongest of the bondange-and-discipline languages out there, and the overhead of doing a "hello world" program is enough to turn off a great number of programmers (not me---I liked Ada when taught in college, but I tend to like statically typed lanauges [2] with early binding [3]). -spc (Just look at the hordes of programmers who grew up with Perl, Python, PHP, Ruby and Javascript ... all would run away screaming and yelling if forced to use Ada ... ) [1] A misunderstanding of Knuth, who in reality was talking about a comment someone else made, about optimization. [2] Dynamically typed lanauges tend to foster muddled thinking in my opinion. "We don't know what we're doing, but we want to develope it fast" indeed ... [3] I'm sorry, but the thought of having a computer constantly making decisions at run time what could easily be decided at compile time just rankles me ... From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Aug 5 21:48:32 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 21:48:32 -0500 Subject: Computer collectors are no longer the dweebiest people in the world... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48991100.7060001@gmail.com> Sellam Ismail wrote: > The toaster people can point at the vacuum cleaner collectors. Google up "Graham Barker's Navel Fluff Collection" - it doesn't get any worse... From James at jdfogg.com Tue Aug 5 21:52:16 2008 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 22:52:16 -0400 Subject: Computer collectors are no longer the dweebiest people in the world... Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A92215D@sbs.jdfogg.com> > > I find almost anything old to be interesting. Lately I've been looking > > at old vacuum tube intercoms (the kind with art deco cases). > > What make? I'll bet I have manuals for some of that stuff... I like Rauland and Bogen, the Bakelite years. I'm watching eBay to see what comes up. Lately I'm spending a lot of time in the barn with some new horses and goats. I don't want to run a PBX extension to the barn, but an intercom is appealing. A lightning strike on a PBX extension would ruin my day. A tube type intercom is more likely to survive, especially a wireless one (carrier current I think is what they called that wireless method using power lines). Also, an intercom would let me monitor audio in the barn to see if everyone is getting along well in my absence. My other choice is a pair of VoIP capable routers and an 802.11 wireless bridge in the barn. I'll use the routers in an OPX configuration to the PBX. From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Aug 5 22:11:53 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 23:11:53 -0400 Subject: Computer collectors are no longer the dweebiest people in the world... In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A92215D@sbs.jdfogg.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A92215D@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <200808052311.53914.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 05 August 2008 22:52, James Fogg wrote: > > > I find almost anything old to be interesting. Lately I've been > > > looking at old vacuum tube intercoms (the kind with art deco cases). > > > > What make? I'll bet I have manuals for some of that stuff... > > I like Rauland and Bogen, the Bakelite years. I'm watching eBay to see > what comes up. Have a look here, then: http://mysite.verizon.net/rtellason/manuals.html and search on either of those brand names. :-) > Lately I'm spending a lot of time in the barn with some new horses and > goats. I don't want to run a PBX extension to the barn, but an intercom > is appealing. A lightning strike on a PBX extension would ruin my day. A > tube type intercom is more likely to survive, especially a wireless one > (carrier current I think is what they called that wireless method using > power lines). Also, an intercom would let me monitor audio in the barn > to see if everyone is getting along well in my absence. I've often had similar thoughts about these teenagers that keep coming around here to keep my two oldest granddaughters company. (Evil grin :-) > My other choice is a pair of VoIP capable routers and an 802.11 wireless > bridge in the barn. I'll use the routers in an OPX configuration to the > PBX. That's a bit much, I'd say. Unless you just happen to have a bunch of that sort of thing already hanging around, which I don't. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 5 22:36:16 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 20:36:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone In-Reply-To: <683650.73822.qm@web56204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <683650.73822.qm@web56204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20080805202601.O54585@shell.lmi.net> This is NOT MIT wanting to do anything. It is a project of a small handful of kids in grad school. A project of a handful of MIT grad students is NOT concerned with what has been done before. Probably doesn't even know about Jeri Ellsworth's product. Is probably not even aware of the IP issues. Has no clue about manufacturing realities. Has no clue about marketing. Is based on their school-age nostalgia and memories, NOT on what is practical. This ain't news. Now, if Jeri Ellsworth were to join the project, THEN I would take it seriously. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 5 23:14:36 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 21:14:36 -0700 Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone In-Reply-To: <200808052244.m75Miafp032342@floodgap.com> References: <4898D271.6040002@jetnet.ab.ca> from "bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca" at "Aug 5, 8 04:21:37 pm", <200808052244.m75Miafp032342@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <4898C2BC.606.7B6FBFE@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Aug 2008 at 15:44, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > It could be the other large learning center on west coast. > > If I could remember who made the p-code I could look > > it up on the web, but it was the other OS for the PC > > after DOS and CP/M86. > > P-code was UCSD (University of California San Diego), my alma mater. Perhaps the name is UCSD-specific, but it's far from being the first. "Incremental compilation" to pseudo-code has been around for a long time--at least from the 1960's. One advantage is that your pseudo- code can have features that the native machine architecture lacks, such as virtual memory, relocatability, large memory space, etc. If done well, the speed can rival (and in some cases, exceed) that of direct-to-native code. I know of a fellow who did a COBOL compiler and run-time back in the 60s that worked inside of a CDC 6000 series PPU (4K of 12 bit words). (Was there ever a COBOL for the 4K PDP 8/L?) I worked with him around 1971 to implement a inter-dialect COBOL translator. He knew nothing about the machine that we were working on--that was my job. He basically invented an abstract machine with an instruction set that operated on COBOL lexical elements. He wrote the translator using mnemonics and syntax that he invented. My job was to implement the machine--first as an interpreter and then later as a series of assembly macros. The darned thing pretty much worked right out of the box and when finally done in macros was a speed demon--and was easy to modify. A few years later, I used the same technique to write a business BASIC that compiled to an intermediate stack-machine code that ran on an 8085--and multitasked with no special hardware. At one trade show, there were some guys dragging around a benchmark that was pretty string-heavy. We beat the pants off of every BASIC there, including BillG's new compiled BASIC. We realized earlier that many business apps weren't so much arithmetic as they were report generators and string manipulators. So we optimized the devil out of our string routines. I still have my original design document, printed on a brand-new OEM- ed Teletype model 40 line printer. OT--there's a recent ad for a working TTY mod 40 setup (terminal, keyboard and printer) here: http://forums.qrz.com/showthread.php?t=169580. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 5 23:27:19 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 21:27:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone In-Reply-To: <4898C2BC.606.7B6FBFE@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4898D271.6040002@jetnet.ab.ca> from "bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca" at "Aug 5, 8 04:21:37 pm", <200808052244.m75Miafp032342@floodgap.com> <4898C2BC.606.7B6FBFE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20080805212313.Q54585@shell.lmi.net> [compiling to pseudo code] On Tue, 5 Aug 2008, Chuck Guzis wrote: > If done well, the speed can rival (and in some cases, exceed) that of > direct-to-native code. But, if done badly, it can combine the convenience of a compiler with the speed of an interpreter. Not everybody is as conscientious as Chuck about optimizing where it is needed. How is the MICROS~1 .Net IL assembler? From michaelgreen42 at comcast.net Tue Aug 5 23:45:42 2008 From: michaelgreen42 at comcast.net (Mike) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 21:45:42 -0700 Subject: Morrow, Osborne, & Grid Computers near Seattle WA In-Reply-To: <200808060248.m762lwpw014106@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200808060248.m762lwpw014106@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <7351BA94B1DC4D89B99899A99FE04B59@pal> Along with the Altos machines I recently picked up I also have a Grid 1105, several Osborne 1's, an Osborne Executive, an IBM luggable, and several Morrows that I'm looking to sell. The IBM and Osborne's work, the Grid does but comes up with an error. The Morrows need a terminal connection but they do power up. Please send offers. From bqt at softjar.se Tue Aug 5 04:01:09 2008 From: bqt at softjar.se (Johnny Billquist) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 11:01:09 +0200 Subject: segmented memory models In-Reply-To: <200808050017.m750GAhZ095290@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200808050017.m750GAhZ095290@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <489816D5.1020708@softjar.se> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Monday 04 August 2008, Sean Conner wrote: > > > It was thus said that the Great Jim Brain once stated: > >> > > Tony Duell wrote: > >>> > > >No it doesn't, given that a PDP11 address to a program is always > >>> > > > 16 bits. The 18 or 22 bit phuysicall addresses were created by > >>> > > > the MMU. > >> > > > >> > > Did an MMU exist for the 8086? > > > > > > If such a think existed, it would have been an external circuit, > > > and would have been very hard to support since the 8086 did not > > > include support for restartable instructions (same situation on the > > > 68000). > > The PDP-11 doesn't support restartable instructions either. You don't > need restartable instructions to support an MMU, only to support > virtual memory type operations. For example, my Z80-based Altos 8000 > has a bank-switching MMU that could operate the same way as an MMU on a > 808[68] would. Actually, some PDP-11 models do support restartable instructions. Just not all of them. It requires the MMR3 register, which tells what modifications have been done to different registers before the instruction was aborted, so that you can back out of that, and then restart the instruction. Some PDP-11 models' MMU would also allow you to implement a virtual memory system, if you wanted to. It's just that noone did, and perhaps for good reasons. With only 8 pages, and way more physical memory than virtual, there isn't really much point in implementing a virtual memory system. But on an 11/70, it is definitely doable. Another example of the hardware designers implementing something that they didn't know was needed, but which could be done without much extra effort, so they did it, just in case someone would want to play around with it. But I think we've already established that the PDP-11 isn't brain damaged. :-) (Oh, and I agree with Tony Duells sentiment about the Intel brain damage. It's plain and simple just a question of not doing something one way when it was common knowledge at the time that that was the way to do it. NIH or just sheer lack of clues don't matter. It's brain dead all the same.) Johnny From simon_coleby at agilent.com Tue Aug 5 06:26:13 2008 From: simon_coleby at agilent.com (simon_coleby at agilent.com) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 05:26:13 -0600 Subject: HP 5036A microprocessor lab - searching for copy of "Practical Microprocessors" Message-ID: <56A5414474C90B47B12AEADF7B268621013D0BBF@cos-us-mb06.cos.agilent.com> Hi Stuart, This is a long shot, but here goes... I have an HP5036A lab, but lack the book. Searching, I found this on a forum from way back in 2003: "Yes, I managed to get a manual, by watching auctions on eBay. In fact, I bought another HP 5036A plus manual and let the seller keep the hardware to save shipping costs from England to the US. The manual is softcover and would not be easy to copy without cutting the spine off, which would ruin its value. Don't give up, though. I know someone that has a manual that has been cut up and copied and I'm trying to get it so that I can make an Acrobat PDF file of it. Stuart Johnson" I don't suppose you ever got a .pdf copy scanned? Just interested. Cheers, Simon Coleby Customer Service Centre. Agilent Technologies UK Limited, Registered Office: 710 Wharfedale Road, Winnersh Triangle, Wokingham, Berkshire, RG41 5TP - Registered No. 03809903 From Brennan.Barber at softprocorp.com Tue Aug 5 10:44:23 2008 From: Brennan.Barber at softprocorp.com (Barber, Brennan) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 11:44:23 -0400 Subject: IC collecting Message-ID: Hi, I cam across your posting and wanted to see if you also collected IC's? Finding other collectors is a rarity for me so I thought I would shoot you and e-mail. I collect clones (russian, eastern block, etc.), Intel engineering samples and any IBM cpus. Brennan From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Aug 5 11:15:04 2008 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 12:15:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Vintage sun stuff free for collection in south bay area. In-Reply-To: <22688.25999.qm@web56212.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <22688.25999.qm@web56212.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200808051617.MAA02963@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Sorry for the short notice on this... I have various vintage Sun > items available [...] No way can I pick up. But if whoever does pick up is interested in parting that kit out, I'd pay shipping (and a bit over for time&trouble) to get > *Sun 3/60 fitted with colour framebuffer. (If the -3/60 doesn't work, no biggie; I have spares. But I'd like a cgfour.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From tommytune123 at gmail.com Tue Aug 5 12:27:06 2008 From: tommytune123 at gmail.com (Tom Manos) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 13:27:06 -0400 Subject: PC Unix wanted Message-ID: <13E34327-4699-4E72-976D-F0224971FC16@gmail.com> Does anyone have one of the PC SVR4 releases from the early '90s? I'm looking for a complete set of Interactive, Microport, or Esix (have I forgotten any?). Prefer complete docs, and would rather have tape install than floppy, but I'll go either way. I'm happy to pay something reasonable. -Tom From philip at axeside.co.uk Tue Aug 5 15:17:29 2008 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 21:17:29 +0100 Subject: IBM Powerstation 320h In-Reply-To: <4896902B.2060603@jwsss.com> References: <7d3530220808031109u4c211cd6xe96dff49e73c2fe2@mail.gmail.com> <4895FF14.60507@mdrconsult.com> <200808031702.47595.pat@computer-refuge.org> <48967608.7060108@gmail.com> <4896902B.2060603@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <4898B559.6020405@axeside.co.uk> > be sure to ask for cables too. the serial cables are the same as RT > ones, but are not Dsub cables. also whatever passes for video would be > good. you should be able to use ps2 mouse and kb if you dont get those > though. I beg to differ. The keyboard looks just like a PS/2 keyboard, but it isn't, and they don't interchange! The genuine keyboard has an ID number printed in white in the margin of the piece of trim that covers the Num Lock / Caps Lock LEDS. I found that out the hard way, after an office move in which two keyboards got swapped. We called the service engineer out and after he had changed the mother board (ugh!) to no effect, he retrieved the correct keyboard from the PC on a colleague's desk (said colleague was away on holiday at the time) and it worked fine. But a PS/2 mouse works fine. I used an RS/6000 mouse on my PC for some years - it was detected as Logitech... Philip. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Aug 5 17:31:20 2008 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 18:31:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone In-Reply-To: <4898D271.6040002@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20080805151433.BA5BA56893@mail.wordstock.com> <4898A761.9030509@brouhaha.com> <04a701c8f732$28b4eb70$03fea8c0@portajara> <4898AF12.70202@gmail.com> <4898B8CA.5010307@jetnet.ab.ca> <4898CDEF.2020707@brouhaha.com> <4898D271.6040002@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200808052231.SAA05473@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> What did MIT do to Pascal? > It could be the other large learning center on west coast. If I > could remember who made the p-code [...] The tag associated with "Pascal" in my wetware is "UCSD", FWTMBW. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From lee_courtney at acm.org Tue Aug 5 20:23:51 2008 From: lee_courtney at acm.org (Lee Courtney (ACM)) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 18:23:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Computer collectors are no longer the dweebiest people in the world... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <304527.18465.qm@web35304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> A new toaster was my #1 want on our wedding registry. I love the toaster we received. ;-) Lee C. --- On Tue, 8/5/08, Sellam Ismail wrote: > From: Sellam Ismail > Subject: Computer collectors are no longer the dweebiest people in the world... > To: "Classic Computers Mailing List" > Date: Tuesday, August 5, 2008, 4:11 PM > No, now we can point at the toaster collectors: > > http://www.toastermuseum.com > > Navigate your way over to "SPECIALS" and then > "What is it worth?" to read > up on toaster pricing. It will seem strangely familiar. > > -- > > Sellam Ismail > Vintage Computer Festival > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > International Man of Intrigue and Danger > http://www.vintage.org > > [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade > Vintage Computers ] > [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at > http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Aug 5 20:59:00 2008 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 21:59:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone In-Reply-To: <4898CE61.7050503@brouhaha.com> References: <20080805151433.BA5BA56893@mail.wordstock.com> <4898A761.9030509@brouhaha.com> <04a701c8f732$28b4eb70$03fea8c0@portajara> <4898AF12.70202@gmail.com> <4898CE61.7050503@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <200808060203.WAA06788@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> They need books, not computers. > That was one of the major criticisms of the OLPC, but hte critics > didn't understand that the OLPC with suitable software and e-texts > was a LESS EXPENSIVE replacement for textbooks. I'm not convinced that is actually true. I'm perfectly ready to believe it's true if you consider only up-front monetary costs, but there are a lot of other costs involved, such as the failure modes (one failure in a relatively fragile bit of electronics and _all_ your texts go poof, to name just one problem), the lack of separability (you can read at most one of those texts at a time, no matter how many people are available), and support infrastructure needed (a book can be taken almost anywhere, without anything additional, and still work; a computer needs, at a minimum, a source of electrical power). /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From michaelgreen42 at comcast.net Wed Aug 6 01:05:54 2008 From: michaelgreen42 at comcast.net (Mike) Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 23:05:54 -0700 Subject: Subject: Re: PC Unix wanted In-Reply-To: <200808060556.m765uiXa016531@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200808060556.m765uiXa016531@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Somewhere around here I've got a set of floppies for SCO Unix I think. Might even be originals. From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Aug 6 01:35:18 2008 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 01:35:18 -0500 Subject: Altos Computers near Seattle WA In-Reply-To: <7B461F7FF22144BD9AEBB4960F2C35F8@pal> References: <200808052213.m75MDcsn010443@dewey.classiccmp.org> <7B461F7FF22144BD9AEBB4960F2C35F8@pal> Message-ID: <48994626.5010700@mdrconsult.com> Err, I'm in Austin TX, zip 78748. You might want to know for shipping charges :) Doc Mike wrote: > I just bought up a large lot of vintage stuff and found 3 Altos computers in > the lot. Not exactly my cup of tea for collecting but I know someone out > there will be interested in these They appear in good shape overall (no > broken pieces or anything). I hate eBay so thought I would post these here. > I would prefer local pickup but I'm happy to ship too (they aren't that > big). I'm taking offers for one or all. > From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Aug 6 01:37:01 2008 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 01:37:01 -0500 Subject: IBM Powerstation 320h In-Reply-To: <4898B559.6020405@axeside.co.uk> References: <7d3530220808031109u4c211cd6xe96dff49e73c2fe2@mail.gmail.com> <4895FF14.60507@mdrconsult.com> <200808031702.47595.pat@computer-refuge.org> <48967608.7060108@gmail.com> <4896902B.2060603@jwsss.com> <4898B559.6020405@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: <4899468D.3070806@mdrconsult.com> Philip Belben wrote: >> be sure to ask for cables too. the serial cables are the same as RT >> ones, but are not Dsub cables. also whatever passes for video would >> be good. you should be able to use ps2 mouse and kb if you dont get >> those though. > > I beg to differ. The keyboard looks just like a PS/2 keyboard, but it > isn't, and they don't interchange! The genuine keyboard has an ID > number printed in white in the margin of the piece of trim that covers > the Num Lock / Caps Lock LEDS. *Some* IBM PC keyboards will work on that box, most not. Doc From doc at mdrconsult.com Wed Aug 6 01:38:54 2008 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 01:38:54 -0500 Subject: Altos Computers near Seattle WA In-Reply-To: <48994626.5010700@mdrconsult.com> References: <200808052213.m75MDcsn010443@dewey.classiccmp.org> <7B461F7FF22144BD9AEBB4960F2C35F8@pal> <48994626.5010700@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <489946FE.8040605@mdrconsult.com> Crap. That was supposed to be offlist. :( Doc Doc Shipley wrote: > Err, I'm in Austin TX, zip 78748. You might want to know for shipping > charges :) > > > Doc > > Mike wrote: >> I just bought up a large lot of vintage stuff and found 3 Altos >> computers in >> the lot. Not exactly my cup of tea for collecting but I know someone out >> there will be interested in these They appear in good shape overall (no >> broken pieces or anything). I hate eBay so thought I would post these >> here. >> I would prefer local pickup but I'm happy to ship too (they aren't that >> big). I'm taking offers for one or all. >> > From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Aug 6 03:16:21 2008 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 10:16:21 +0200 Subject: 9 track tape drive motors - suitable for a go-kart? In-Reply-To: <9952.1217949374@mini> References: <9952.1217949374@mini> Message-ID: <20080806101621.f6cd1f18.jkunz@unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> On Tue, 05 Aug 2008 11:16:14 -0400 Brad Parker wrote: > I have a racing go-kart frame which is currently missing a motor (a > CRG if anyone cares). It occurred to me that it might be fun to grab > a large number of high capacity batteries and somehow rig one of the > tape drive motors to the live axle. Even more OT, but real fun... A 500 hp electric motorcycle build for drag racing: http://www.killacycle.com/ To your question: The motors found in 9 track tape drive are a few 100 W at best. Not enough to drive a go-kart. These motros are more optimized for precision then power. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From fryers at gmail.com Wed Aug 6 04:35:48 2008 From: fryers at gmail.com (Simon Fryer) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 10:35:48 +0100 Subject: Computer collectors are no longer the dweebiest people in the world... In-Reply-To: <4898F7E1.1000907@radiorobots.com> References: <4898F7E1.1000907@radiorobots.com> Message-ID: On 06/08/2008, steve stutman wrote: > Sellam Ismail wrote: > > No, now we can point at the toaster collectors: > > > > http://www.toastermuseum.com > > > > Navigate your way over to "SPECIALS" and then "What is it worth?" to read > up on toaster pricing. It will seem strangely familiar. > > > This is very judgmental and technist. > > I am surprised to see such comments posted here. > > I suppose, now you will go after the vacuum cleaner belt people? Don't they suck? (sorry, that was bad.) The people who race belt sanders always seem to have a lot of fun judging by the videos. Simon -- ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is the utility of the final product." Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Aug 6 05:08:38 2008 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 06:08:38 -0400 Subject: 9 track tape drive motors - suitable for a go-kart? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <24827.1218017318@mini> Sellam Ismail wrote: > >I finally got my hands on a motor from a 9-track I scrapped. It puts out >several amps at 24V+ when I hand-spin it. It will do nicely as a current >source to charge a lead-acid battery, especially where I live: > >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altamont_Pass_Wind_Farm Better idea! (I used to live in Pleasanton; and who could forget the speedway?) -brad From joachim.thiemann at gmail.com Wed Aug 6 07:47:13 2008 From: joachim.thiemann at gmail.com (Joachim Thiemann) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 08:47:13 -0400 Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone In-Reply-To: <200808060203.WAA06788@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20080805151433.BA5BA56893@mail.wordstock.com> <4898A761.9030509@brouhaha.com> <04a701c8f732$28b4eb70$03fea8c0@portajara> <4898AF12.70202@gmail.com> <4898CE61.7050503@brouhaha.com> <200808060203.WAA06788@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <4affc5e0808060547w4a81dc0n3087074a9b7831c4@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Aug 5, 2008 at 9:59 PM, der Mouse wrote: >> didn't understand that the OLPC with suitable software and e-texts >> was a LESS EXPENSIVE replacement for textbooks. > I'm not convinced that is actually true. I'm perfectly ready to > believe it's true if you consider only up-front monetary costs, but > there are a lot of other costs involved, such as the failure modes (one [...] I agree, but think that even the up-front cost for books is not as high. In my undergraduate (and earlier graduate) days, whenever a friend would go home to India, China or Pakistan, they'd come back with the overseas editions of engineering textbooks that cost $80-$100 here. There, they cost $2-$10, and we're not talking pirated copies. Printed cheaply (phonebook type paper) but still very serviceable, the content is exactly the same. (Yes, in english. There'd be a chinese or hindi subtitle on the cover, and some front matter, but the rest is the same) The publishers know that unless they price them that low, noone would buy the books. Joe. From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Wed Aug 6 09:08:40 2008 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 10:08:40 -0400 Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone References: <4898D271.6040002@jetnet.ab.ca> <200808052244.m75Miafp032342@floodgap.com> <4898C2BC.606.7B6FBFE@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <18585.45160.30500.762066@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Chuck" == Chuck Guzis writes: Chuck> "Incremental compilation" to pseudo-code has been around for a Chuck> long time--at least from the 1960's. One advantage is that Chuck> your pseudo- code can have features that the native machine Chuck> architecture lacks, such as virtual memory, relocatability, Chuck> large memory space, etc. Chuck> If done well, the speed can rival (and in some cases, exceed) Chuck> that of direct-to-native code. I know of a fellow who did a Chuck> COBOL compiler and run-time back in the 60s that worked inside Chuck> of a CDC 6000 series PPU (4K of 12 bit words). (Was there ever Chuck> a COBOL for the 4K PDP 8/L?) Are you sure that COBOL ran on a PPU? I can't imagine a reason for doing that, other than as a "watch this" stunt. On the other hand, Cobol on a 6000 CPU would be sensible and useful. Chuck> ...A few years later, I used the same technique to write a Chuck> business BASIC that compiled to an intermediate stack-machine Chuck> code that ran on an 8085--and multitasked with no special Chuck> hardware. Was that before Forth came out? That's the classic example of a p-code language with multitasking. Another earlier example is BASIC-PLUS for the PDP-11. That's an incremental compiler to P-code. Also, in the earlier versions (RSTS-11, for the no-MMU PDP-11s) it included multitasking (timesharing) support in the P-code machinery. The later versions (RSTS/E) didn't need that because there was a real kernel with MMU hardware. paul From blstuart at bellsouth.net Wed Aug 6 09:31:21 2008 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 14:31:21 +0000 Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone In-Reply-To: <4affc5e0808060547w4a81dc0n3087074a9b7831c4@mail.gmail.com> References: <20080805151433.BA5BA56893@mail.wordstock.com><4898A761.9030509@brouhaha.com><04a701c8f732$28b4eb70$03fea8c0@portajara> <4898AF12.70202@gmail.com><4898CE61.7050503@brouhaha.com><200808060203.WAA06788@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4affc5e0808060547w4a81dc0n3087074a9b7831c4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <080620081431.14450.4899B5B900085F940000387222243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> > here. There, they cost $2-$10, and we're not talking pirated copies. > Printed cheaply (phonebook type paper) but still very serviceable, the > content is exactly the same. (Yes, in english. There'd be a chinese > or hindi subtitle on the cover, and some front matter, but the rest is > the same) > > The publishers know that unless they price them that low, noone would > buy the books. Authors also often get a lower royalty percentage on those than on US sales. That doesn't cut a lot out of the retail cost, but it does cut a little. My understanding is that most publishers contract those out to companies that specialize in that sort of thing. They wouldn't stand up to library use, nor would they be good for those of us that keep books on our shelves for decades as references. But for a student who wants to use it one term and throw it away or give it to a friend, they work. One thing you've got to be careful about using them here is that the domestic version might be on a later printing with corrections or changes in the exercises. Those changes may not have made their way through the pipeline into the "phonebook" editions. (I like that characterization.) But this is straying way off topic, so I'll stop now. BLS From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Aug 6 09:32:33 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 10:32:33 -0400 Subject: IBM Powerstation 320h In-Reply-To: <4898B559.6020405@axeside.co.uk> References: <7d3530220808031109u4c211cd6xe96dff49e73c2fe2@mail.gmail.com> <4895FF14.60507@mdrconsult.com> <200808031702.47595.pat@computer-refuge.org> <48967608.7060108@gmail.com> <4896902B.2060603@jwsss.com> <4898B559.6020405@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: <4899B601.7070004@gmail.com> Philip Belben wrote: >> be sure to ask for cables too. the serial cables are the same as RT >> ones, but are not Dsub cables. also whatever passes for video would >> be good. you should be able to use ps2 mouse and kb if you dont get >> those though. > > I beg to differ. The keyboard looks just like a PS/2 keyboard, but it > isn't, and they don't interchange! The genuine keyboard has an ID > number printed in white in the margin of the piece of trim that covers > the Num Lock / Caps Lock LEDS. > > I found that out the hard way, after an office move in which two > keyboards got swapped. We called the service engineer out and after he > had changed the mother board (ugh!) to no effect, he retrieved the > correct keyboard from the PC on a colleague's desk (said colleague was > away on holiday at the time) and it worked fine. > > But a PS/2 mouse works fine. I used an RS/6000 mouse on my PC for some > years - it was detected as Logitech... I believe that AIX recognizes the PS/2 keyboard just fine past version 4.2.1. You only run into problems with < 4.2.1. Anyway, the only differences are a couple of layout issues, and the embedded speaker. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Aug 6 09:32:33 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 10:32:33 -0400 Subject: IBM Powerstation 320h In-Reply-To: <4898B559.6020405@axeside.co.uk> References: <7d3530220808031109u4c211cd6xe96dff49e73c2fe2@mail.gmail.com> <4895FF14.60507@mdrconsult.com> <200808031702.47595.pat@computer-refuge.org> <48967608.7060108@gmail.com> <4896902B.2060603@jwsss.com> <4898B559.6020405@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: <4899B601.7070004@gmail.com> Philip Belben wrote: >> be sure to ask for cables too. the serial cables are the same as RT >> ones, but are not Dsub cables. also whatever passes for video would >> be good. you should be able to use ps2 mouse and kb if you dont get >> those though. > > I beg to differ. The keyboard looks just like a PS/2 keyboard, but it > isn't, and they don't interchange! The genuine keyboard has an ID > number printed in white in the margin of the piece of trim that covers > the Num Lock / Caps Lock LEDS. > > I found that out the hard way, after an office move in which two > keyboards got swapped. We called the service engineer out and after he > had changed the mother board (ugh!) to no effect, he retrieved the > correct keyboard from the PC on a colleague's desk (said colleague was > away on holiday at the time) and it worked fine. > > But a PS/2 mouse works fine. I used an RS/6000 mouse on my PC for some > years - it was detected as Logitech... I believe that AIX recognizes the PS/2 keyboard just fine past version 4.2.1. You only run into problems with < 4.2.1. Anyway, the only differences are a couple of layout issues, and the embedded speaker. Peace... Sridhar From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Aug 6 10:44:05 2008 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 10:44:05 -0500 Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone In-Reply-To: <18585.45160.30500.762066@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <4898D271.6040002@jetnet.ab.ca> <200808052244.m75Miafp032342@floodgap.com> <4898C2BC.606.7B6FBFE@cclist.sydex.com> <18585.45160.30500.762066@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20080806104205.05d2ee20@mail.threedee.com> At 09:08 AM 8/6/2008, Paul Koning wrote: >Another earlier example is BASIC-PLUS for the PDP-11. That's an >incremental compiler to P-code. Also, in the earlier versions >(RSTS-11, for the no-MMU PDP-11s) it included multitasking >(timesharing) support in the P-code machinery. The later versions >(RSTS/E) didn't need that because there was a real kernel with MMU >hardware. P-code to a virtual machine, or just tokenized to save parsing time? I thought it was just tokenized because there were "de-compilers" that restored "compiled" code to real source. - John From schwepes at moog.netaxs.com Wed Aug 6 11:06:58 2008 From: schwepes at moog.netaxs.com (schwepes at moog.netaxs.com) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 12:06:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone In-Reply-To: <20080805202601.O54585@shell.lmi.net> References: <683650.73822.qm@web56204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <20080805202601.O54585@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: News is what gets people to read, listen or watch. Obviously, these college kids got someone to do same. Creating a simplified machine that can sell for the cost of a calculator would be useful. Consider the recent third world computer. Then, to make the issue less acedemic, they would have to create a method of using this machine to talk with mahines using more modern protocols. This would have application in many parts of the world. College kids also have the time, the focus and the resources to design such things. this is how they prove themselves worthy to be hired when they get out. bs On Tue, 5 Aug 2008, Fred Cisin wrote: > This is NOT MIT wanting to do anything. It is a project of a small > handful of kids in grad school. > > A project of a handful of MIT grad students is NOT concerned with what has > been done before. > Probably doesn't even know about Jeri Ellsworth's product. > Is probably not even aware of the IP issues. > Has no clue about manufacturing realities. > Has no clue about marketing. > Is based on their school-age nostalgia and memories, NOT on what is > practical. > > This ain't news. > > > Now, if Jeri Ellsworth were to join the project, THEN I would take it > seriously. > > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com > From jplist2007 at kiwigeek.com Wed Aug 6 10:56:40 2008 From: jplist2007 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 10:56:40 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Double-Sided disk drives reading Single-Sided disks (HP 9122 vs 9121) Message-ID: Hey guys; This may, or may not, be a silly question, but in all my years of fiddling, I realised I had never tried this, so I'm unsure of what the results will be. My HP Logic Analyser (1630G) can talk to a HP 9121 via HP-IB. I have found a 9122, which is a double-sided version of the same device, as far as I can tell. I'm fairly confident the 1630G won't care - but the diskettes that I have (inverse assembler pack, thanks Gavin - you rock) are single-sided. Is there any reason that the 9122 DS drive won't read a SS diskette for the 9121? Thank you for your help! - JP From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Wed Aug 6 11:13:45 2008 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 12:13:45 -0400 Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone References: <4898D271.6040002@jetnet.ab.ca> <200808052244.m75Miafp032342@floodgap.com> <4898C2BC.606.7B6FBFE@cclist.sydex.com> <18585.45160.30500.762066@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <6.2.3.4.2.20080806104205.05d2ee20@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: <18585.52665.834481.493383@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "John" == John Foust writes: John> At 09:08 AM 8/6/2008, Paul Koning wrote: >> Another earlier example is BASIC-PLUS for the PDP-11. That's an >> incremental compiler to P-code. Also, in the earlier versions >> (RSTS-11, for the no-MMU PDP-11s) it included multitasking >> (timesharing) support in the P-code machinery. The later versions >> (RSTS/E) didn't need that because there was a real kernel with MMU >> hardware. John> P-code to a virtual machine, or just tokenized to save parsing John> time? P-code. It was called "push-pop code" because it would execute on a stack machine (like a B5500). And it had some rather interesting high level operations. Not just floating point (which was something not in the 11/20 instruction set) but also primitives to operate on matrices (like "invert this matrix) as a primitive opcode). John> I thought it was just tokenized because there were John> "de-compilers" that restored "compiled" code to real source. You may be thinking of RT-11 BASIC, where the "list" command actually did exactly that. paul From schwepes at moog.netaxs.com Wed Aug 6 11:20:48 2008 From: schwepes at moog.netaxs.com (schwepes at moog.netaxs.com) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 12:20:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone In-Reply-To: <4898DAD7.9060803@brouhaha.com> References: <200808052244.m75Miafp032342@floodgap.com> <4898DAD7.9060803@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: I have the Softtech Users' Manual VersionIV. Anyone have a use for it? bs On Tue, 5 Aug 2008, Eric Smith wrote: > Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > P-code was UCSD (University of California San Diego), my alma mater. > > The UCSD p-system used p-code, but it was nowhere near the first Pascal > compiler/interpreter system to do so. > From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Wed Aug 6 11:24:07 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 13:24:07 -0300 Subject: IC collecting References: Message-ID: <00df01c8f7e0$f95aedc0$160c010a@portajara> >I cam across your posting and wanted to see if you also collected IC's? >Finding other collectors is a rarity for me so I thought I would shoot >you and e-mail. I collect clones (russian, eastern block, etc.), Intel >engineering samples and any IBM cpus. It would be a nice web page with big photos :oD From schwepes at moog.netaxs.com Wed Aug 6 11:28:31 2008 From: schwepes at moog.netaxs.com (schwepes at moog.netaxs.com) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 12:28:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: question aaout ISP's In-Reply-To: <48987C9F.8080503@jbrain.com> References: <507520.26074.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <48987C9F.8080503@jbrain.com> Message-ID: I'm based in Philadelphia. My current provided is disabling telnet capability at the beginning of September. I would like to know if anyone knows of a service that will permit me that capability? bs From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 6 11:19:36 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 09:19:36 -0700 Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone In-Reply-To: <18585.45160.30500.762066@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <4898D271.6040002@jetnet.ab.ca>, <18585.45160.30500.762066@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <48996CA8.4291.A4EC339@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Aug 2008 at 10:08, Paul Koning wrote: > Are you sure that COBOL ran on a PPU? I can't imagine a reason for > doing that, other than as a "watch this" stunt. On the other hand, > Cobol on a 6000 CPU would be sensible and useful. Dead sure--that's what makes it so interesting. The guy and a cohort did it as a "stunt" project for a CDC VP (of which there were many). He was not a CDC employee, but an outside consultant under contract. He went back pretty far with COBOL--he was part of the original IBM COMTRAN group. A very colorful character. > Was that before Forth came out? That's the classic example of a > p-code language with multitasking. About the same time. I seem to remember someone passing me an 8" floppy with STOIC on it. My point was that p-code really has nothing to do with Pascal itself--that the p-code technique was known long before Pascal came out. I think some companies, such as Ryan-McFarland exploited this extensively early on by essentially taking the same language implementation and retargeting it to different platforms by simply changing the p-code interpreter implementation. Cheers, Chuck From James at jdfogg.com Wed Aug 6 11:34:52 2008 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 12:34:52 -0400 Subject: question aaout ISP's Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A922163@sbs.jdfogg.com> > I'm based in Philadelphia. My current provided is disabling > telnet capability at the beginning of September. I would like > to know if anyone knows of a service that will permit me that > capability? > bs Don't use standard ports. My provider (Comcast) blocks port 25 (mail) inbound and outbound, and doesn't allow relaying through its mail servers. Instead I use port 2525 and an external mail relay service. With telnet, you won't need a relay service if anyone accessing your system knows that it's on a non-standard port. Do you really need telnet though? SSH preferable if your host can run it. From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Wed Aug 6 11:35:02 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 13:35:02 -0300 Subject: Double-Sided disk drives reading Single-Sided disks (HP 9122 vs 9121) References: Message-ID: <00e801c8f7e2$6b041b80$160c010a@portajara> > can tell. I'm fairly confident the 1630G won't care - but the diskettes > that I have (inverse assembler pack, thanks Gavin - you rock) are > single-sided. I Sold my 16xx logic analyzer because i NEVER have been able to found it. Would you mind to share it on a page? Take a look here: http://www.tabajara-labs.com.br/hal/index.htm I'm sharing all I've got :o) Thanks Alexandre From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Aug 6 11:35:15 2008 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 11:35:15 -0500 Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone In-Reply-To: <18585.52665.834481.493383@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <4898D271.6040002@jetnet.ab.ca> <200808052244.m75Miafp032342@floodgap.com> <4898C2BC.606.7B6FBFE@cclist.sydex.com> <18585.45160.30500.762066@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <6.2.3.4.2.20080806104205.05d2ee20@mail.threedee.com> <18585.52665.834481.493383@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20080806113327.058f6580@mail.threedee.com> At 11:13 AM 8/6/2008, Paul Koning wrote: > John> I thought it was just tokenized because there were > John> "de-compilers" that restored "compiled" code to real source. > >You may be thinking of RT-11 BASIC, where the "list" command actually >did exactly that. No, I'm think of circa '83 VAX-based BASIC-Plus (2?). - John From schwepes at moog.netaxs.com Wed Aug 6 12:01:37 2008 From: schwepes at moog.netaxs.com (schwepes at moog.netaxs.com) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 13:01:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: question aaout ISP's In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A922163@sbs.jdfogg.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A922163@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Aug 2008, James Fogg wrote: > > I'm based in Philadelphia. My current provided is disabling > > telnet capability at the beginning of September. I would like > > to know if anyone knows of a service that will permit me that > > capability? > > bs > > Don't use standard ports. My provider (Comcast) blocks port 25 (mail) > inbound and outbound, and doesn't allow relaying through its mail > servers. Instead I use port 2525 and an external mail relay service. > > With telnet, you won't need a relay service if anyone accessing your > system knows that it's on a non-standard port. > > Do you really need telnet though? SSH preferable if your host can run > it. > > The reason for telnet is to access from workstations at work. I am a substitute teacher and therefore have to deal with a variety of workstations. I am also not constantly on line so I need a repository to hold my mail until I can get it. I could use the Yahoo e-mail address but my own machine suffers from flakey landlines which makes waiting for loading and refresh less than fun. bs From trag at io.com Wed Aug 6 12:09:16 2008 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 12:09:16 -0500 (CDT) Subject: LocalTalk In-Reply-To: <200808060556.m765uiXe016531@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200808060556.m765uiXe016531@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <8726.209.163.133.242.1218042556.squirrel@webmail.io.com> > Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 16:17:32 -0400 > From: Sridhar Ayengar > Subject: LocalTalk > > Hi. I'm looking for a LocalTalk->Ethernet bridge and some LocalTalk > cables. Anyone have any available? I don't have one available but the product names you are looking for include: AsantePrint MicroAsanteprint AsanteTalk in order from oldest to more recent. All three of those were by Asante. There were similar products from Farallon and Dayna, but I do not remember the specific product names. All of those will bridge from LocalTalk to Ethernet, but I think they only bridge the AppleTalk protocols and not TCP/IP. The latter two are about the size of a deck of cards and pretty much look identical, except there's a variation on the middle one with a BNC connector in addition to the RJ45 jack. The earlier two have more network management features which one is unlikely to use in a home network. For LocalTalk cabling, unless there's some reason you really want to use original LocalTalk cabling, you should get PhoneNet connectors and use phone cable for the connections. The PhoneNet connectors are a dongle (available in many different brands) which plug into the serial (LocalTalk) port and have two RJ11 jacks on the other end. The RJ11 jacks can be used to form a daisy chain network. If a PhoneNet connector is at the end of the chain (only one jack used) then the unused jack should have a terminating resistor installed. I don't remember the value. Finally, PhoneNet uses the two wires in four conductor cable, which the telephone system does not use (yellow/black vs. red/green). However, there are a lot of telephone cables out there shipped with modems which only include the telephone pair and not the pair which PhoneNet needs. You can spend a lot of time trying to diagnose a PhoneNet connectivity problem when the necessary wires are absent from your cable. :-) When ethernet became very affordable, old PhoneNet equipment was more or less being given away free. Most of it has been disposed of by now, so it may be a bit challenging to find, but probably not too challenging. I remember seeing a lot of 150 PhoneNet dongles go for something like $.99 plus shipping. :-) But that was probably eight years ago. Jeff Walther From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Wed Aug 6 12:22:25 2008 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 13:22:25 -0400 Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone References: <4898D271.6040002@jetnet.ab.ca> <18585.45160.30500.762066@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <48996CA8.4291.A4EC339@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <18585.56785.319748.793199@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Chuck" == Chuck Guzis writes: Chuck> On 6 Aug 2008 at 10:08, Paul Koning wrote: >> Are you sure that COBOL ran on a PPU? I can't imagine a reason >> for doing that, other than as a "watch this" stunt. On the other >> hand, Cobol on a 6000 CPU would be sensible and useful. Chuck> Dead sure--that's what makes it so interesting. The guy and a Chuck> cohort did it as a "stunt" project for a CDC VP (of which Chuck> there were many). He was not a CDC employee, but an outside Chuck> consultant under contract. He went back pretty far with Chuck> COBOL--he was part of the original IBM COMTRAN group. A very Chuck> colorful character. Interesting. I forwarded your previous note to the "controlfreaks" list, which is home to a lot of people with major CDC expertise, and they all mentioned the Cobol products (for the CPU) but wouldn't believe a PPU edition. Do you have any names? paul From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Wed Aug 6 12:25:40 2008 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 13:25:40 -0400 Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone References: <4898D271.6040002@jetnet.ab.ca> <200808052244.m75Miafp032342@floodgap.com> <4898C2BC.606.7B6FBFE@cclist.sydex.com> <18585.45160.30500.762066@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <6.2.3.4.2.20080806104205.05d2ee20@mail.threedee.com> <18585.52665.834481.493383@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <6.2.3.4.2.20080806113327.058f6580@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: <18585.56980.456590.989156@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "John" == John Foust writes: John> At 11:13 AM 8/6/2008, Paul Koning wrote: I thought it was just John> tokenized because there were "de-compilers" that restored John> "compiled" code to real source. >> You may be thinking of RT-11 BASIC, where the "list" command >> actually did exactly that. John> No, I'm think of circa '83 VAX-based BASIC-Plus (2?). BP2 is a true compiler, not a P-code system. By the way, I meant to mention another compiler that did something like P-code: RT-11 Fortran. The actual scheme was called "threaded code" because it was basically a stream of function pointers. (Come to think of it, that's a common Forth encoding as well.) That's about as fast as straight code if most of what you need is calls to support functions, and more compact because you're not including the opcode word. paul From lproven at gmail.com Wed Aug 6 12:32:07 2008 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 18:32:07 +0100 Subject: IBM Model M keyboard spares Message-ID: <575131af0808061032j2d59a5e0id53f06dbaf1b7626@mail.gmail.com> /The/ classic PC keyboard, IMHO. Alas, one of my treasured 'boards fell off a table and its space bar is shattered. Anyone know where I could buy a spare spacebar? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Wed Aug 6 12:46:39 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 17:46:39 +0000 Subject: p-Code environments (was Re: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone) In-Reply-To: <18585.56980.456590.989156@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <4898D271.6040002@jetnet.ab.ca> <200808052244.m75Miafp032342@floodgap.com> <4898C2BC.606.7B6FBFE@cclist.sydex.com> <18585.45160.30500.762066@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <6.2.3.4.2.20080806104205.05d2ee20@mail.threedee.com> <18585.52665.834481.493383@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <6.2.3.4.2.20080806113327.058f6580@mail.threedee.com> <18585.56980.456590.989156@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <20080806174639.GD27122@usap.gov> On Wed, Aug 06, 2008 at 01:25:40PM -0400, Paul Koning wrote: > By the way, I meant to mention another compiler that did something > like P-code: RT-11 Fortran. The actual scheme was called "threaded > code" because it was basically a stream of function pointers. (Come > to think of it, that's a common Forth encoding as well.) That's about > as fast as straight code if most of what you need is calls to support > functions, and more compact because you're not including the opcode > word. That scheme sort of reminds me of FORTRAN IV for the PDP-8 - IIRC, the compiler produces, mostly, a stream of FPP instructions that either get executed by a real FPP-12 (or FPP-8?) _or_, lacking math hardware, get emulated by wads of PDP-8 instructions. The difference is rather than a stream of function pointers, it's a stream of math co-processor instructions that are either executed by real hardware or by an emulator library. In either environment, though, the object code is the same. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 6-Aug-2008 at 17:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -76.0 F (-60.0 C) Windchill -124.3 F (-86.8 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 20.1 kts Grid 18 Barometer 679.4 mb (10651 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From ssj152 at centurytel.net Wed Aug 6 12:50:23 2008 From: ssj152 at centurytel.net (Stuart Johnson) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 12:50:23 -0500 Subject: HP 5036A microprocessor lab - searching for copy of "Practical Microprocessors" Message-ID: <41E26065-1AB2-406D-AF06-656CBDBF3C14@centurytel.net> Simon, Sorry, I have only the one copy. I have seen other copies sold on eBay, but have not been willing to pay the $100 USD or more that they have sold for. It is really a shame that no one has been able or willing to have one scanned, but that would take a LOT of work - the manual is over an inch thick. Without proper OCR it would be a PDF of pictures, which load very slowly and would make the scan huge. I've seen quite a few manuals done this way and they aren't nearly as usable as the OCR'd variety. I thought about scanning mine back in 2003, and even bought a flat-bed scanner w/OCR software, but it wasn't up to the job at that time. Better equipment and software would have been necessary, along with cutting away the spine of the manual. Today there are better and more affordable solutions, but I am not up to doing it as my health has forced me to retire. I'm not willing to sell my manual in case anyone is wondering, sorry. This looks like an opportunity for someone with the manual, proper equipment, and time - anyone? Simon, do you have the required setup to do this without damaging the book? Regards Stuart Johnson --- On Aug 6, 2008, at 9:38 AM, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Hi Stuart, > > > > This is a long shot, but here goes... > > I have an HP5036A lab, but lack the book. > > Searching, I found this on a forum from way back in 2003: > > > "Yes, I managed to get a manual, by watching auctions on eBay. In > fact, I > bought another HP 5036A plus manual and let the seller keep the > hardware to > save shipping costs from England to the US. The manual is softcover > and > would not be easy to copy without cutting the spine off, which would > ruin > its value. > > Don't give up, though. I know someone that has a manual that has > been cut up > and copied and I'm trying to get it so that I can make an Acrobat > PDF file > of it. Stuart Johnson" > > I don't suppose you ever got a .pdf copy scanned? > Just interested. > > > > Cheers, > > Simon Coleby > > Customer Service Centre. > > Agilent Technologies UK Limited, Registered Office: 710 Wharfedale > Road, Winnersh Triangle, Wokingham, Berkshire, RG41 5TP - Registered > No. 03809903 > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 6 13:01:37 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 11:01:37 -0700 Subject: p-Code environments (was Re: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone) In-Reply-To: <20080806174639.GD27122@usap.gov> References: <4898D271.6040002@jetnet.ab.ca>, <18585.56980.456590.989156@gargle.gargle.HOWL>, <20080806174639.GD27122@usap.gov> Message-ID: <48998491.18950.AAC28D7@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Aug 2008 at 17:46, Ethan Dicks wrote: > The difference is rather than a stream of function pointers, it's a > stream of math co-processor instructions that are either executed by > real hardware or by an emulator library. In either environment, though, > the object code is the same. There were also a bunch of compile-and-run-in-place systems, like GOTRAN. Does anyone recall what PUFFT used (it'd be in the programming languages book by Saul Rosen--I can't locate my copy right now)? Cheers, Chuck From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Aug 6 13:05:27 2008 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 11:05:27 -0700 Subject: HP 5036A microprocessor lab - searching for copy of "Practical Microprocessors" In-Reply-To: <41E26065-1AB2-406D-AF06-656CBDBF3C14@centurytel.net> References: <41E26065-1AB2-406D-AF06-656CBDBF3C14@centurytel.net> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90808061105r4c86174cm78886293d7bda337@mail.gmail.com> If nothing else at least the 5036A monitor ROM source is available in machine readable format. This isn't my website, but I was the one that created this source listing by unassembling the monitor ROM and then adding all of the comments from the monitor listing in the manual to get it as close to 100% original as I could. http://www.decodesystems.com/5036ALST.TXT http://www.decodesystems.com/5036ASM.TXT From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 6 13:19:28 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 11:19:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone In-Reply-To: <080620081431.14450.4899B5B900085F940000387222243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> References: <20080805151433.BA5BA56893@mail.wordstock.com><4898A761.9030509@brouhaha.com><04a701c8f732$28b4eb70$03fea8c0@portajara> <4898AF12.70202@gmail.com><4898CE61.7050503@brouhaha.com><200808060203.WAA06788@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4affc5e0808060547w4a81dc0n3087074a9b7831c4@mail.gmail.com> <080620081431.14450.4899B5B900085F940000387222243651029B0A02D2089B9A019C04040A0DBF9B9D0E9A9B9C040D@att.net> Message-ID: <20080806111547.W81818@shell.lmi.net> > here. There, they cost $2-$10, and we're not talking pirated copies. I've had publishers tell me that those ARE pirated copies. One indicator (not completely accurate): what ISBN number do they have on them? (publishers normally use different ISBNs for different bindings, etc., but part of the ISBN is a publisher #) From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Aug 6 13:25:08 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 11:25:08 -0700 Subject: p-code (was MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone) Message-ID: <4899EC84.20401@bitsavers.org> > I think some companies, such as Ryan-McFarland exploited this > extensively early on as did Digitek's FORTRAN From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Aug 6 13:35:53 2008 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 13:35:53 -0500 Subject: BASIC-Plus decompiler In-Reply-To: <18585.56980.456590.989156@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <4898D271.6040002@jetnet.ab.ca> <200808052244.m75Miafp032342@floodgap.com> <4898C2BC.606.7B6FBFE@cclist.sydex.com> <18585.45160.30500.762066@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <6.2.3.4.2.20080806104205.05d2ee20@mail.threedee.com> <18585.52665.834481.493383@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <6.2.3.4.2.20080806113327.058f6580@mail.threedee.com> <18585.56980.456590.989156@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20080806125406.092d0070@mail.threedee.com> At 12:25 PM 8/6/2008, Paul Koning wrote: >>>>>> "John" == John Foust writes: > > John> At 11:13 AM 8/6/2008, Paul Koning wrote: I thought it was just > John> tokenized because there were "de-compilers" that restored > John> "compiled" code to real source. > >> You may be thinking of RT-11 BASIC, where the "list" command > >> actually did exactly that. > > John> No, I'm think of circa '83 VAX-based BASIC-Plus (2?). > >BP2 is a true compiler, not a P-code system. As has happened many times before, the same topics get rehashed on this list even by the same people. So Paul, we crossed this topic about three years ago. :-) http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2005-May/044445.html There are two decompilers mentioned in this RSTS history: http://elvira.stacken.kth.se/rsts/rsts_80th_birthday.html 1974 February-Clark Baker, George Robbins, Dan Grim and Ed Baker write the PPCODE Basic Plus Decompiler. 1978: October-Nick de Smith returns to Dulwich College, where he had been a student between 1967 and 1976, to write the DECOMP Basic Plus Decompiler. 1990: July-SPL announces special anniversary ?offers? on various software products including The Link, BAS24K, BP3, RPM, DECOMP, SORT1 and REPGEN. (The name George Robbins caught my eye, as I knew him from Commodore and the Amiga. Other googling makes it apparent it's the same guy who worked on the 1974 decompiler, and sadly, it seems he passed away in 2002.) Perhaps we're just arguing about semantics. If BP2 was a true compiler, to me that means it was emitting native CPU code in an executable format - no interpretation needed. So you're saying this decompiler was reading CPU opcodes and mapping them correctly back to BASIC code? That it wasn't just detokenizing something that ran through an interpreter? It would probably be easier for us to find on the net the BASIC source code for this decompiler I'm thinking of, than for me to find my copy in my own archives. Then we could study the source code. The Spring '80 DECUS tape from Chicago RSTS SIG matches my timeframe and locale, as well as the tape being submitted by someone close to George's origin in Delaware: http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/decus/11s042.html "[80,19] BASIC-PLUS-1 DECOMPILER: two programs, one data file BASIC-PLUS-1 reverse compiler" Bill Gunshannon was looking for it in 5/07 on comp.sys.dec, too. http://unix.derkeiler.com/Newsgroups/comp.sys.dec/2007-05/msg00008.html - John From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Wed Aug 6 14:01:39 2008 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 15:01:39 -0400 Subject: BASIC-Plus decompiler References: <4898D271.6040002@jetnet.ab.ca> <200808052244.m75Miafp032342@floodgap.com> <4898C2BC.606.7B6FBFE@cclist.sydex.com> <18585.45160.30500.762066@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <6.2.3.4.2.20080806104205.05d2ee20@mail.threedee.com> <18585.52665.834481.493383@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <6.2.3.4.2.20080806113327.058f6580@mail.threedee.com> <18585.56980.456590.989156@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <6.2.3.4.2.20080806125406.092d0070@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: <18585.62739.925542.749745@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "John" == John Foust writes: John> At 12:25 PM 8/6/2008, Paul Koning wrote: >> BP2 is a true compiler, not a P-code system. John> As has happened many times before, the same topics get rehashed John> on this list even by the same people. ... John> http://elvira.stacken.kth.se/rsts/rsts_80th_birthday.html John> 1974 February-Clark Baker, George Robbins, Dan Grim and Ed John> Baker write the PPCODE Basic Plus Decompiler. John> 1978: October-Nick de Smith returns to Dulwich College, where John> he had been a student between 1967 and 1976, to write the John> DECOMP Basic Plus Decompiler. John> 1990: July-SPL announces special anniversary ?offers? on John> various software products including The Link, BAS24K, BP3, RPM, John> DECOMP, SORT1 and REPGEN. John> (The name George Robbins caught my eye, as I knew him from John> Commodore and the Amiga. Other googling makes it apparent it's John> the same guy who worked on the 1974 decompiler, and sadly, it John> seems he passed away in 2002.) John> Perhaps we're just arguing about semantics. If BP2 was a true John> compiler, to me that means it was emitting native CPU code in John> an executable format - no interpretation needed. So you're John> saying this decompiler was reading CPU opcodes and mapping them John> correctly back to BASIC code? That it wasn't just detokenizing John> something that ran through an interpreter? John> ... http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/decus/11s042.html John> "[80,19] BASIC-PLUS-1 DECOMPILER: two programs, one data file John> BASIC-PLUS-1 reverse compiler" You may be missing the different product names. "BASIC-PLUS" and "BASIC-PLUS-2" are very different beasts. (I haven't seen BASIC-PLUS-1 before, that wasn't a normal designation but the meaning is obvious.) BP was a P-code ("push-pop code") incremental compiler. It runs only on RSTS. BP2 was a regular compiler; it would produce object files which you'd feed to TKB to get your RSX-format executables. It ran on RSTS, RSX, and VMS. >From the point of view of language, BP2 was pretty much a superset of BP though not exactly. You could certainly write the intersection of the two very easily. At DEC, that was the practice for RSTS tools because, at least for a while, they needed to be useable for customers who didn't have the BP2 optional (extra cost) product installed. Later that was dropped due to the introduction of "CSPCOM", a limited BP2 variant. The decompilers you're describing are for BP, not BP2. PPcode was just "high level" enough that you could get reasonably intellegible decompile output. I don't think the decompile would actually produce BASIC source; instead it was more like an annotated disassembly that you could read with some effort. At least that's what I recall from the one or two occasions where I tried one of those decompilers. There are several other DEC BASICs as well. There was one for DOS; I don't remember anymore what that one looked like. It may have been a straight interpreter (stores text, interprets text). Some vague memory says that it used an oddball 3 word (48 bit) float format, quite unlike any of the ones supported by PDP-11 hardware FPUs. Or that may have been the BP in RSTS V3. Or both... Then there was BASIC-11 for RT-11. That was a much more limited BASIC, nowhere near as powerful as BP or BP2. It was a tokenizing system: the interpreter would execute from the tokens but that wasn't a P-code, it really was only a different way of representing the source text. When you said "LIST" it would reconstitute the source code from the token stream, so the layout would be altered a bit. It used PDP-11 standard floating point format. By contrast, BP did support "LIST" but it would do that by saving the source text (in a temporary file) as well as the P-code representation; LIST would give you the saved source text. paul From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Aug 6 14:07:11 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 15:07:11 -0400 Subject: question aaout ISP's In-Reply-To: References: <507520.26074.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <48987C9F.8080503@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4899F65F.8000504@gmail.com> schwepes at moog.netaxs.com wrote: > I'm based in Philadelphia. My current provided is disabling > telnet capability at the beginning of September. I would like > to know if anyone knows of a service that will permit me that > capability? Cloud 9 does, but they're in New York. PANIX does too, but again in New York. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Aug 6 14:10:55 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 15:10:55 -0400 Subject: IBM Model M keyboard spares In-Reply-To: <575131af0808061032j2d59a5e0id53f06dbaf1b7626@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0808061032j2d59a5e0id53f06dbaf1b7626@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4899F73F.3010608@gmail.com> Liam Proven wrote: > /The/ classic PC keyboard, IMHO. The Model M came out *waay* after the PC. The 84-key is the one for the PC. I don't think the Model M is even compatible with the PC. Peace... Sridhar From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Aug 6 14:12:20 2008 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 14:12:20 -0500 Subject: BASIC-Plus decompiler In-Reply-To: <18585.62739.925542.749745@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <4898D271.6040002@jetnet.ab.ca> <200808052244.m75Miafp032342@floodgap.com> <4898C2BC.606.7B6FBFE@cclist.sydex.com> <18585.45160.30500.762066@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <6.2.3.4.2.20080806104205.05d2ee20@mail.threedee.com> <18585.52665.834481.493383@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <6.2.3.4.2.20080806113327.058f6580@mail.threedee.com> <18585.56980.456590.989156@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <6.2.3.4.2.20080806125406.092d0070@mail.threedee.com> <18585.62739.925542.749745@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20080806141003.091e8380@mail.threedee.com> At 02:01 PM 8/6/2008, Paul Koning wrote: >You may be missing the different product names. >"BASIC-PLUS" and "BASIC-PLUS-2" are very different beasts. (I haven't >seen BASIC-PLUS-1 before, that wasn't a normal designation but the >meaning is obvious.) No, I saw that difference, and that's why I pointed it out. What I'm remembering is a BASIC decompiler, written in BASIC, that was running on RSTS/e circa 1983. So that was BP, not BP2, right? - John From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 6 14:18:18 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 12:18:18 -0700 Subject: question aaout ISP's In-Reply-To: <4899F65F.8000504@gmail.com> References: <507520.26074.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com>, , <4899F65F.8000504@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4899968A.7804.AF25DE9@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Aug 2008 at 15:07, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Cloud 9 does, but they're in New York. Wow--Woz runs a New York ISP? ;) Cheers, Chuck From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Aug 6 14:20:09 2008 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 12:20:09 -0700 Subject: question aaout ISP's In-Reply-To: <4899F65F.8000504@gmail.com> References: <507520.26074.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <48987C9F.8080503@jbrain.com> <4899F65F.8000504@gmail.com> Message-ID: > From: Sridhar Ayengar > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 12:07 PM > schwepes at moog.netaxs.com wrote: >> I'm based in Philadelphia. My current provided is disabling >> telnet capability at the beginning of September. I would like >> to know if anyone knows of a service that will permit me that >> capability? > Cloud 9 does, but they're in New York. PANIX does too, but again > in New York. On the other hand, Panix has local POP numbers all over the continental US, so that may not be a problem. Check their web site for details at http://www.panix.com/ Rich (happy Panix shell-only customer since Netcom closed down) From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 6 14:20:20 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 12:20:20 -0700 Subject: IBM Model M keyboard spares In-Reply-To: <4899F73F.3010608@gmail.com> References: <575131af0808061032j2d59a5e0id53f06dbaf1b7626@mail.gmail.com>, <4899F73F.3010608@gmail.com> Message-ID: <48999704.3888.AF436E5@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Aug 2008 at 15:10, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > The Model M came out *waay* after the PC. The 84-key is the one for the > PC. I don't think the Model M is even compatible with the PC. PC AT 5170, yes--PC 5150, no--I tried it. Different protocol. Cheers, Chuck From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Wed Aug 6 14:21:34 2008 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 15:21:34 -0400 Subject: BASIC-Plus decompiler References: <4898D271.6040002@jetnet.ab.ca> <200808052244.m75Miafp032342@floodgap.com> <4898C2BC.606.7B6FBFE@cclist.sydex.com> <18585.45160.30500.762066@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <6.2.3.4.2.20080806104205.05d2ee20@mail.threedee.com> <18585.52665.834481.493383@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <6.2.3.4.2.20080806113327.058f6580@mail.threedee.com> <18585.56980.456590.989156@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <6.2.3.4.2.20080806125406.092d0070@mail.threedee.com> <18585.62739.925542.749745@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <6.2.3.4.2.20080806141003.091e8380@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: <18585.63934.115993.758209@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "John" == John Foust writes: John> At 02:01 PM 8/6/2008, Paul Koning wrote: >> You may be missing the different product names. "BASIC-PLUS" and >> "BASIC-PLUS-2" are very different beasts. (I haven't seen >> BASIC-PLUS-1 before, that wasn't a normal designation but the >> meaning is obvious.) John> No, I saw that difference, and that's why I pointed it out. John> What I'm remembering is a BASIC decompiler, written in BASIC, John> that was running on RSTS/e circa 1983. So that was BP, not John> BP2, right? Presumably. At least that's the only kind I have ever heard of. While in theory it would be possible to decompile BP2 -- just as it is possible to decompile machine code back into C or C++ -- that would be hard enough that coding it in BASIC seems implausible. By contrast, disassembling PPcode is easy. paul From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 6 13:58:50 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 19:58:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: If there's anyone in West Yorkshire with a working BBC Master In-Reply-To: from "listmailgoeshere@gmail.com" at Aug 5, 8 11:36:29 pm Message-ID: > > On Tue, Aug 5, 2008 at 8:40 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> > >> please could you get in touch? I've a disk I need to read, and I've > >> just discovered that my Master no longer feels like working :( > > > > How long since you last used it? > > Not totally sure, but around a year. Plemty of time for the battery to go flat :-) > > >> ObCCTalk: symptoms are just the message "Acorn MOS, Acorn ADFS" and > >> then a flashing cursor upon switch-on. The drive does click as if it's > > Do I take it from this that you don't get the BASIC message? > > Indeed you don't. However, by pressing Ctrl-F BREAK, you can get a * > prompt, and then typing BASIC and hitting Return will drop you into > BASIC. > > The only testing I did after that was a simple 10 PRINT "HELLO", 20 > GOTO 10, RUN. It worked. > > > Being a Master, it's quite likrly the internal battery is flat and the > > configuration RAM is corrupted. There's a key combination to reset this > > (I forget it, it's in the mnual, though). Try that, and then configure > > the options you want. If that cures it, replace the batteries... > > >From the reading up I was doing earlier this evening, it's switching > on whilst holding down R. That sounds right. Assumeing all this works, it's very liekly the battery has gone flat. AFAIK it's 3 AA-size primary cells (non-rechargeable) in series. Officieally you were supposed to replace the whole assembly with the Acorn spare, but I have no idea why (other than Acorn could then sell you a spare). I just repalce the cells and have had no problems. -tony From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Aug 6 14:27:13 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 15:27:13 -0400 Subject: question aaout ISP's In-Reply-To: References: <507520.26074.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <48987C9F.8080503@jbrain.com> <4899F65F.8000504@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4899FB11.2020205@gmail.com> Rich Alderson wrote: >>> I'm based in Philadelphia. My current provided is disabling >>> telnet capability at the beginning of September. I would like >>> to know if anyone knows of a service that will permit me that >>> capability? > >> Cloud 9 does, but they're in New York. PANIX does too, but again >> in New York. > > On the other hand, Panix has local POP numbers all over the continental > US, so that may not be a problem. Check their web site for details at > http://www.panix.com/ So does Cloud 9, but dial-up sucks. Peace... Sridhar From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 6 14:05:58 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 20:05:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: Computer collectors are no longer the dweebiest people in the In-Reply-To: from "Sellam Ismail" at Aug 5, 8 04:11:31 pm Message-ID: > > > No, now we can point at the toaster collectors: I am not sure what the exact definition of 'dweebiest' is, but I can't see anything wrong with collecting toasters. Not that they particularly interest me, but I see no harm in being interested in them. Perhaps sombody can elightent me as to the differenc between collecting toasters and collecting computers, calculators, cameras, service manuals, etc, etc, etc. > > http://www.toastermuseum.com > > Navigate your way over to "SPECIALS" and then "What is it worth?" to read > up on toaster pricing. It will seem strangely familiar. Am I the only 'collector' who doesn't much care about the value of the items hi his colelction? I collect things becuase I'm interested in them, I find them beautiful (in a somewhat odd way, I can appreciate the good design in a PDP11 or HP98x0 CPU, for example). I don't collect in the hope that I'll be able to sell them later for more money. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Aug 6 14:20:58 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 20:20:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: Double-Sided disk drives reading Single-Sided disks (HP 9122 vs In-Reply-To: from "JP Hindin" at Aug 6, 8 10:56:40 am Message-ID: > > > Hey guys; > > This may, or may not, be a silly question, but in all my years of > fiddling, I realised I had never tried this, so I'm unsure of what the > results will be. > > My HP Logic Analyser (1630G) can talk to a HP 9121 via HP-IB. I have found > a 9122, which is a double-sided version of the same device, as far as I Is it? I thought the command set was different, but I might be thinking of other HP drives that looked similar on the outside and were totally different inside. > can tell. I'm fairly confident the 1630G won't care - but the diskettes > that I have (inverse assembler pack, thanks Gavin - you rock) are > single-sided. > > Is there any reason that the 9122 DS drive won't read a SS diskette for > the 9121? The 9122 can certainly read SS disks. Whether the system can handle it is another matter. -tony From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Aug 6 14:27:40 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 15:27:40 -0400 Subject: IBM Model M keyboard spares In-Reply-To: <48999704.3888.AF436E5@cclist.sydex.com> References: <575131af0808061032j2d59a5e0id53f06dbaf1b7626@mail.gmail.com>, <4899F73F.3010608@gmail.com> <48999704.3888.AF436E5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4899FB2C.2030408@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 6 Aug 2008 at 15:10, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> The Model M came out *waay* after the PC. The 84-key is the one for the >> PC. I don't think the Model M is even compatible with the PC. > > PC AT 5170, yes--PC 5150, no--I tried it. Different protocol. Even on the AT, the protocol works, but you need a cable adapter. Peace... Sridhar From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Aug 6 14:46:24 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 15:46:24 -0400 Subject: IBM Model M keyboard spares In-Reply-To: <4899FB2C.2030408@gmail.com> References: <575131af0808061032j2d59a5e0id53f06dbaf1b7626@mail.gmail.com> <48999704.3888.AF436E5@cclist.sydex.com> <4899FB2C.2030408@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200808061546.25047.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 06 August 2008, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 6 Aug 2008 at 15:10, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> The Model M came out *waay* after the PC. The 84-key is the one > >> for the PC. I don't think the Model M is even compatible with the > >> PC. > > > > PC AT 5170, yes--PC 5150, no--I tried it. Different protocol. > > Even on the AT, the protocol works, but you need a cable adapter. > > Peace... Sridhar Maybe. I have one or two detachable Model-M cables that have a DIN-5 connector instead of a MiniDIN-6. Just don't ask me to try and find them. :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 6 14:55:12 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 12:55:12 -0700 Subject: IBM Model M keyboard spares In-Reply-To: <4899FB2C.2030408@gmail.com> References: <575131af0808061032j2d59a5e0id53f06dbaf1b7626@mail.gmail.com>, <48999704.3888.AF436E5@cclist.sydex.com>, <4899FB2C.2030408@gmail.com> Message-ID: <48999F30.10676.B142580@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Aug 2008 at 15:27, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Even on the AT, the protocol works, but you need a cable adapter. I've got a whole mess of them, of both persuasions. They came with the old IBM "monitor saver" boxes (along with pieces of sticky-sided velcro). I wish I could find a home for a few of those. Too bad they'll respond only to keypress and not to mouse movement. A lot of third-party keyboards either had switches or could auto- detect and adapt to the difference between PC and PC AT protocols. But what with +5 being available on the cable, it would be as easy as fishing with dynamite to program a PIC or AVR as a lump in the cable to convert betwixt the two. Cheers Chuck From frustum at pacbell.net Wed Aug 6 14:56:23 2008 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 14:56:23 -0500 Subject: Computer collectors are no longer the dweebiest people in the In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <489A01E7.8010904@pacbell.net> Tony Duell wrote: >> >> No, now we can point at the toaster collectors: > > I am not sure what the exact definition of 'dweebiest' is, but I can't > see anything wrong with collecting toasters. Not that they particularly > interest me, but I see no harm in being interested in them. "dweeb" has passed into common usage, but the original meaning was a acronym of "d*ck with ears". As many curses go, it doesn't make literal sense. The common usage of calling someone a d*ck usually means the person is a jerk, but in the dweeb context, it just is a general pejorative. Think of dweeb as meaning "nerd," "clueless," or "unfashionable." > Perhaps sombody can elightent me as to the differenc between collecting > toasters and collecting computers, calculators, cameras, service > manuals, etc, etc, etc. Tony, you missed it; he gently mocking toaster collectors, but he was also putting us vintage computer collectors in the same category. The point was self effacement more than putting anyone else down. >> http://www.toastermuseum.com >> >> Navigate your way over to "SPECIALS" and then "What is it worth?" to read >> up on toaster pricing. It will seem strangely familiar. > > Am I the only 'collector' who doesn't much care about the value of the > items hi his colelction? I collect things becuase I'm interested in them, > I find them beautiful (in a somewhat odd way, I can appreciate the good > design in a PDP11 or HP98x0 CPU, for example). I don't collect in the > hope that I'll be able to sell them later for more money. Tony, I think you are alone in that. The rest of us are getting stinking rich stockpiling boring old electronics doo-dads. I just wish my hands didn't get so dusty touching the stuff, as it makes my cash dirty. From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Aug 6 14:58:00 2008 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 12:58:00 -0700 Subject: BASIC-Plus decompiler In-Reply-To: <18585.62739.925542.749745@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <4898D271.6040002@jetnet.ab.ca><200808052244.m75Miafp032342@floodgap.com><4898C2BC.606.7B6FBFE@cclist.sydex.com><18585.45160.30500.762066@gargle.gargle.HOWL><6.2.3.4.2.20080806104205.05d2ee20@mail.threedee.com><18585.52665.834481.493383@gargle.gargle.HOWL><6.2.3.4.2.20080806113327.058f6580@mail.threedee.com><18585.56980.456590.989156@gargle.gargle.HOWL><6.2.3.4.2.20080806125406.092d0070@mail.threedee.com> <18585.62739.925542.749745@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: From: Paul Koning Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 12:02 PM [ snip ] > "BASIC-PLUS" and "BASIC-PLUS-2" are very different beasts. (I haven't > seen BASIC-PLUS-1 before, that wasn't a normal designation but the > meaning is obvious.) > BP was a P-code ("push-pop code") incremental compiler. It runs only > on RSTS. > BP2 was a regular compiler; it would produce object files which you'd > feed to TKB to get your RSX-format executables. It ran on RSTS, RSX, > and VMS. It also ran on TOPS-20 (though I swear that I thought the name there was BASIC-PLUS-4, nothing I've seen since 1984 backs me up on that). There, it was a replacement for the second Tops-10 BASIC; the first was not portable to the newer OS. (NB: The first Tops-10 BASIC was the one learned by Messrs. Allen and Gates, of course.) Thanks, Rich From jplist2007 at kiwigeek.com Wed Aug 6 14:43:54 2008 From: jplist2007 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 14:43:54 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Double-Sided disk drives reading Single-Sided disks (HP 9122 vs In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Aug 2008, Tony Duell wrote: > > Hey guys; > > > > This may, or may not, be a silly question, but in all my years of > > fiddling, I realised I had never tried this, so I'm unsure of what the > > results will be. > > > > My HP Logic Analyser (1630G) can talk to a HP 9121 via HP-IB. I have found > > a 9122, which is a double-sided version of the same device, as far as I > > Is it? I thought the command set was different, but I might be thinking > of other HP drives that looked similar on the outside and were totally > different inside. Vassilis Prevelakis has informed me that the 9121 speaks Amigo, while the 9122 is SS80. Obviously this may throw a wrench in the works! I'm going to have to go over the 1630 manual tonight and work out if it can speak both, or not, but I'm not optimistic. Don't suppose anyone out there has a 9121 I can buy? :) - JP From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Aug 6 15:03:43 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 16:03:43 -0400 Subject: IBM Model M keyboard spares In-Reply-To: <200808061546.25047.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <575131af0808061032j2d59a5e0id53f06dbaf1b7626@mail.gmail.com> <48999704.3888.AF436E5@cclist.sydex.com> <4899FB2C.2030408@gmail.com> <200808061546.25047.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <489A039F.7060301@gmail.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Wednesday 06 August 2008, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> On 6 Aug 2008 at 15:10, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>>> The Model M came out *waay* after the PC. The 84-key is the one >>>> for the PC. I don't think the Model M is even compatible with the >>>> PC. >>> PC AT 5170, yes--PC 5150, no--I tried it. Different protocol. >> Even on the AT, the protocol works, but you need a cable adapter. >> >> Peace... Sridhar > > Maybe. > > I have one or two detachable Model-M cables that have a DIN-5 connector > instead of a MiniDIN-6. Just don't ask me to try and find them. :) I have a few IBM 101-key keyboards that have detachable cords, and the DIN-5 connector, but they're not Model Ms. They have completely different part numbers and stiffer key feel. They also have older square IBM logos. Peace... Sridhar From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Aug 6 15:34:51 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 16:34:51 -0400 Subject: IBM Model M keyboard spares In-Reply-To: <489A039F.7060301@gmail.com> References: <575131af0808061032j2d59a5e0id53f06dbaf1b7626@mail.gmail.com> <200808061546.25047.pat@computer-refuge.org> <489A039F.7060301@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200808061634.51141.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 06 August 2008, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > On Wednesday 06 August 2008, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> Chuck Guzis wrote: > >>> On 6 Aug 2008 at 15:10, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >>>> The Model M came out *waay* after the PC. The 84-key is the one > >>>> for the PC. I don't think the Model M is even compatible with > >>>> the PC. > >>> > >>> PC AT 5170, yes--PC 5150, no--I tried it. Different protocol. > >> > >> Even on the AT, the protocol works, but you need a cable adapter. > >> > >> Peace... Sridhar > > > > Maybe. > > > > I have one or two detachable Model-M cables that have a DIN-5 > > connector instead of a MiniDIN-6. Just don't ask me to try and > > find them. :) > > I have a few IBM 101-key keyboards that have detachable cords, and > the DIN-5 connector, but they're not Model Ms. > > They have completely different part numbers and stiffer key feel. > They also have older square IBM logos. > > Peace... Sridhar But, the cables fit and work with Model M's. Thus, you don't need a cable adapter. (The keyboards and cables store better when the cable is detached from the keyboard anyhow.) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From legalize at xmission.com Wed Aug 6 15:46:15 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 14:46:15 -0600 Subject: RetroGraphics VT-100 or not? Message-ID: Can someone confirm or deny that the following two photos: depict a retrographics upgraded VT-100? This seller previously sold a number of retrographics VT-100s on ebay that were badged as such, but this one lacks the retrographics badge on the exterior of the case. I can't tell from looking at these pictures of the insides if its got the retrographics upgrade or not. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Aug 6 15:49:20 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 16:49:20 -0400 Subject: IBM Model M keyboard spares In-Reply-To: <200808061634.51141.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <575131af0808061032j2d59a5e0id53f06dbaf1b7626@mail.gmail.com> <200808061546.25047.pat@computer-refuge.org> <489A039F.7060301@gmail.com> <200808061634.51141.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <489A0E50.3020606@gmail.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: >>>>>> The Model M came out *waay* after the PC. The 84-key is the one >>>>>> for the PC. I don't think the Model M is even compatible with >>>>>> the PC. >>>>> PC AT 5170, yes--PC 5150, no--I tried it. Different protocol. >>>> Even on the AT, the protocol works, but you need a cable adapter. >>> Maybe. >>> >>> I have one or two detachable Model-M cables that have a DIN-5 >>> connector instead of a MiniDIN-6. Just don't ask me to try and >>> find them. :) >> I have a few IBM 101-key keyboards that have detachable cords, and >> the DIN-5 connector, but they're not Model Ms. >> >> They have completely different part numbers and stiffer key feel. >> They also have older square IBM logos. > > But, the cables fit and work with Model M's. > > Thus, you don't need a cable adapter. (The keyboards and cables store > better when the cable is detached from the keyboard anyhow.) Point taken. Peace... Sridhar From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Aug 6 15:53:56 2008 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 13:53:56 -0700 Subject: RF08/RS08 emulation Message-ID: General question for PDP-8 fans: I've seen references to someone having created an RF08/RS08 replacement. Does anyone on the list know details of such a project? Thanks, Rich Rich Alderson RichA at vulcan.com Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project (206) 342-2239 Vulcan, Inc., 505 5th Avenue S, Seattle, WA 98104 (206) 465-2916 cell From coredump at gifford.co.uk Wed Aug 6 16:02:57 2008 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 22:02:57 +0100 Subject: If there's anyone in West Yorkshire with a working BBC Master In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <489A1181.3050903@gifford.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > That sounds right. Assumeing all this works, it's very liekly the battery > has gone flat. AFAIK it's 3 AA-size primary cells (non-rechargeable) in > series. Officieally you were supposed to replace the whole assembly with > the Acorn spare, but I have no idea why (other than Acorn could then sell > you a spare). I just repalce the cells and have had no problems. I have done exactly that, just replace the three AA cells. I took some photos, too. The battery pack: http://www.flickr.com/photos/anachrocomputer/2671356074 and the location of it in the machine: http://www.flickr.com/photos/anachrocomputer/2670534379 Really early Masters had a lithium battery right up next to the keyboard and speaker, but these tended to catch fire! Most machines were changed to use the three AA cell pack. -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Aug 6 16:12:07 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 14:12:07 -0700 Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone In-Reply-To: <200808060203.WAA06788@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20080805151433.BA5BA56893@mail.wordstock.com> <4898A761.9030509@brouhaha.com> <04a701c8f732$28b4eb70$03fea8c0@portajara> <4898AF12.70202@gmail.com> <4898CE61.7050503@brouhaha.com> <200808060203.WAA06788@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <489A13A7.3040003@brouhaha.com> I wrote: > That was one of the major criticisms of the OLPC, but hte critics > didn't understand that the OLPC with suitable software and e-texts > was a LESS EXPENSIVE replacement for textbooks. der Mouse wrote: > I'm not convinced that is actually true. I'm perfectly ready to > believe it's true if you consider only up-front monetary costs, but > there are a lot of other costs involved, such as the failure modes (one > failure in a relatively fragile bit of electronics and _all_ your texts > go poof, to name just one problem), the lack of separability (you can > read at most one of those texts at a time, no matter how many people > are available), and support infrastructure needed (a book can be taken > almost anywhere, without anything additional, and still work; a > computer needs, at a minimum, a source of electrical power). The failure rate was included in the cost analysis. Yes, that does push the per unit price above the initial $188, but it is *still* lower than the cost of paper textbooks. That's also one of the main reasons why Mary Lou Jepsen invented the display that has a color mode AND a sunlight-readable high-contrast B&W mode. Textbooks (electronic or otherwise) are no good if you can't actually read them, and a normal laptop display isn't really adequate. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Wed Aug 6 16:16:41 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 14:16:41 -0700 Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone In-Reply-To: <20080806024437.GC5832@brevard.conman.org> References: <200808052244.m75Miafp032342@floodgap.com> <4898DE17.6040608@jetnet.ab.ca> <4898E26B.3000803@brouhaha.com> <20080806024437.GC5832@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <489A14B9.10708@brouhaha.com> Sean Conner wrote about Ada: > It's about the strongest of the > bondange-and-discipline languages out there, Not really. C++ has far surpassed Ada in this regard. I routinely compile C++ code from the net and discover that the latest version of GCC has introduced new checks that cause the compilation to fail. It used to be that C++ advocates called Ada a bloated, design-by-committee language (neither of which is actually true), but now the shoe is on the other foot. Yet C++ is still very popular. > and the overhead of doing a > "hello world" program is enough to turn off a great number of programmers For just a "hello world" program, the sheer amount of source text to do it is slightly more than C++, but for real-world programs there's not much difference (IMHO, speaking as someone who has worked on both large C++ code bases and large Ada code bases). Eric From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 6 16:24:45 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 14:24:45 -0700 Subject: IBM Model M keyboard spares In-Reply-To: <575131af0808061032j2d59a5e0id53f06dbaf1b7626@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0808061032j2d59a5e0id53f06dbaf1b7626@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <4899B42D.10669.B662250@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Aug 2008 at 18:32, Liam Proven wrote: > /The/ classic PC keyboard, IMHO. > > Alas, one of my treasured 'boards fell off a table and its space bar > is shattered. Anyone know where I could buy a spare spacebar? I wonder if PCkeyboards.com has one that will work. It could be sent via post to the UK. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Aug 6 16:27:03 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 14:27:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone In-Reply-To: References: <683650.73822.qm@web56204.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <20080805202601.O54585@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <20080806142239.F89093@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 6 Aug 2008 schwepes at moog.netaxs.com wrote: > News is what gets people to read, listen or watch. Obviously, > these college kids got someone to do same. Creating a simplified > machine that can sell for the cost of a calculator would be > useful. Consider the recent third world computer. It would, indeed. Care to place bets on whether any of that will happen? > Then, to make the issue less acedemic, they would have to create > a method of using this machine to talk with mahines using more > modern protocols. > This would have application in many parts of the world. > College kids also have the time, the focus and the resources to design > such things. > this is how they prove themselves worthy to be hired when they get > out. And as such an academic and demonstration exercise, there is no need to be concerned with "prior art", including Jeri's C64. No need to be concerned with IP issues, manufacturing, and marketing realities. Their choice of project is based on their personal interests, not on what would be a more useful/practical product. And, it is still being miscategorized as significant news. From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Aug 6 16:27:11 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 14:27:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM Model M keyboard spares In-Reply-To: <575131af0808061032j2d59a5e0id53f06dbaf1b7626@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0808061032j2d59a5e0id53f06dbaf1b7626@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Aug 2008, Liam Proven wrote: > /The/ classic PC keyboard, IMHO. > > Alas, one of my treasured 'boards fell off a table and its space bar > is shattered. Anyone know where I could buy a spare spacebar? Right here: http://www.clickykeyboards.com/index.cfm/fa/categories.main/parentcat/10191 -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Aug 6 16:29:51 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 14:29:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM Model M keyboard spares In-Reply-To: <4899B42D.10669.B662250@cclist.sydex.com> References: <575131af0808061032j2d59a5e0id53f06dbaf1b7626@mail.gmail.com> <4899B42D.10669.B662250@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: >> /The/ classic PC keyboard, IMHO. >> >> Alas, one of my treasured 'boards fell off a table and its space bar >> is shattered. Anyone know where I could buy a spare spacebar? > > I wonder if PCkeyboards.com has one that will work. It could be sent > via post to the UK. > http://www.clickykeyboards.com/index.cfm/fa/categories.main/parentcat/10191 g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From dgahling at hotmail.com Wed Aug 6 16:30:44 2008 From: dgahling at hotmail.com (Dan Gahlinger) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 17:30:44 -0400 Subject: Make a $12 C64! (Beating a dead horse!) In-Reply-To: <401533.89330.qm@web56211.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <489835B9.1664.5902BF5@cclist.sydex.com> <401533.89330.qm@web56211.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Do we not speak of "Vice" on here or something? VICE is a 64 emulator, that, as far as I've seen beats everything else I've seen (which isn't much). I haven't seen any difference running software on vice vs the real thing... point is, couldnt vice be used on some sort of embedded system, or would the cost be too high? Dan. > Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 12:10:02 -0700 > From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Make a $12 C64! (Beating a dead horse!) > > I looked up some things. > > There were two C64 based products from two different companies that used the same ASIC. So I don't think the companies own the intellectual property rights on the chip.. They have the rights to their products. > > Rumor is that Mammoth ordered many ASICs that were never used. To bad those couldn't be released to the public for people to make their own stuff. > > Also there are browsers and telnet apps for the C64 > > Web browsers for the C64 > > Hyperlink > http://www.armory.com/~spectre/cwi/hl/ > > Singular Browser > http://noname.c64.org/csdb/release/?id=30400 > > Ethernet hardware/software for the C64 > http://home.ica.net/~leifb/commodore/ethernet.html > > I just think that this would be a quicker solution. > > Or everyone can donate their C64s, but I doubt the power supplies will survive. > > > > _________________________________________________________________ Try Chicktionary, a game that tests how many words you can form from the letters given. Find this and more puzzles at Live Search Games! http://g.msn.ca/ca55/207 From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Aug 6 16:31:54 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 17:31:54 -0400 Subject: Computer collectors are no longer the dweebiest people in the In-Reply-To: <489A01E7.8010904@pacbell.net> References: <489A01E7.8010904@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <200808061731.54437.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 06 August 2008 15:56, Jim Battle wrote: (Snip) > > Am I the only 'collector' who doesn't much care about the value of the > > items hi his colelction? I collect things becuase I'm interested in them, > > I find them beautiful (in a somewhat odd way, I can appreciate the good > > design in a PDP11 or HP98x0 CPU, for example). I don't collect in the > > hope that I'll be able to sell them later for more money. > > Tony, I think you are alone in that. The rest of us are getting > stinking rich stockpiling boring old electronics doo-dads. I just wish > my hands didn't get so dusty touching the stuff, as it makes my cash dirty. Wow, I definitely must be missing something here... :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Aug 6 16:40:04 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 17:40:04 -0400 Subject: IBM Model M keyboard spares In-Reply-To: <4899B42D.10669.B662250@cclist.sydex.com> References: <575131af0808061032j2d59a5e0id53f06dbaf1b7626@mail.gmail.com> <4899B42D.10669.B662250@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <489A1A34.5060401@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 6 Aug 2008 at 18:32, Liam Proven wrote: > >> /The/ classic PC keyboard, IMHO. >> >> Alas, one of my treasured 'boards fell off a table and its space bar >> is shattered. Anyone know where I could buy a spare spacebar? > > I wonder if PCkeyboards.com has one that will work. It could be sent > via post to the UK. They do factory refurbishment, and will be happy to sell you a new one. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Aug 6 16:42:26 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 17:42:26 -0400 Subject: Computer collectors are no longer the dweebiest people in the In-Reply-To: <200808061731.54437.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <489A01E7.8010904@pacbell.net> <200808061731.54437.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <489A1AC2.60902@gmail.com> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Wednesday 06 August 2008 15:56, Jim Battle wrote: > (Snip) >>> Am I the only 'collector' who doesn't much care about the value of the >>> items hi his colelction? I collect things becuase I'm interested in them, >>> I find them beautiful (in a somewhat odd way, I can appreciate the good >>> design in a PDP11 or HP98x0 CPU, for example). I don't collect in the >>> hope that I'll be able to sell them later for more money. >> Tony, I think you are alone in that. The rest of us are getting >> stinking rich stockpiling boring old electronics doo-dads. I just wish >> my hands didn't get so dusty touching the stuff, as it makes my cash dirty. > > Wow, I definitely must be missing something here... :-) Yeah, it's called irony. 8-) Peace... Sridhar From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Wed Aug 6 17:02:33 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 17:02:33 -0500 Subject: If there's anyone in West Yorkshire with a working BBC Master In-Reply-To: <489A1181.3050903@gifford.co.uk> References: <489A1181.3050903@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: <489A1F79.1000106@gmail.com> John Honniball wrote: > I have done exactly that, just replace the three AA cells. I took > some photos, too. The battery pack: > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/anachrocomputer/2671356074 I've seen a few like that. Far more common (IME) are the type with three AA's in shrink-wrap. Both types have a diode fitted to stop charging of the non-rechargeable cells, which is why I suspect Acorn really didn't want people rustling up their own units. cheers Jules From legalize at xmission.com Wed Aug 6 17:05:13 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 16:05:13 -0600 Subject: BASIC-Plus decompiler In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 06 Aug 2008 13:35:53 -0500. <6.2.3.4.2.20080806125406.092d0070@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: In article <6.2.3.4.2.20080806125406.092d0070 at mail.threedee.com>, John Foust writes: > 1974 February-Clark Baker, George Robbins, Dan Grim and=20 > Ed Baker write the PPCODE Basic Plus Decompiler. These are all folks from Project DELTA, a group that taught me to program in BASIC-PLUS :-). See -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Aug 6 17:25:41 2008 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 18:25:41 -0400 Subject: Computer collectors are no longer the dweebiest people in the References: Message-ID: <00ae01c8f813$5c96e880$6601a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 3:05 PM Subject: Re: Computer collectors are no longer the dweebiest people in the > Am I the only 'collector' who doesn't much care about the value of the > items hi his colelction? I collect things becuase I'm interested in them, > I find them beautiful (in a somewhat odd way, I can appreciate the good > design in a PDP11 or HP98x0 CPU, for example). I don't collect in the > hope that I'll be able to sell them later for more money. > > -tony I hope that my collection is worth enough when I die that it offsets the cost of disposal of the CRTs I am keeping. Would hate to die and leave somebody with a bill for cleanup. It is more fun to collect things that are not worth that much. If you had a $250K guitar would you leave it in your room and play it all the time or would it end up in some expensive display case hidden from view incase somebody wanted to steal it? How many people with original Apple I's would run them very often if at all? TZ From chd_1 at nktelco.net Wed Aug 6 17:52:59 2008 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H Dickman) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 18:52:59 -0400 Subject: Stream of Consciousness Was: Re: IBM Model M keyboard spares In-Reply-To: <4899F73F.3010608@gmail.com> References: <575131af0808061032j2d59a5e0id53f06dbaf1b7626@mail.gmail.com> <4899F73F.3010608@gmail.com> Message-ID: <489A2B4B.3000103@nktelco.net> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Liam Proven wrote: >> /The/ classic PC keyboard, IMHO. > > The Model M came out *waay* after the PC. The 84-key is the one for > the PC. I don't think the Model M is even compatible with the PC. > > Peace... Sridhar The stream of consciousness nature of this list is very enlightening. I learn things from subject drift that I never expected. Usually the drift is what I learn from, since the original question is not useful to me. At the same time, it can be frustrating for the OP because his question often gets lost in the drift. From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Aug 6 18:05:58 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 19:05:58 -0400 Subject: IBM Model M keyboard spares Message-ID: <01C8F7F8.18021980@host-208-72-122-1.dyn.295.ca> -----------Original Message(s): Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 15:10:55 -0400 From: Sridhar Ayengar Subject: Re: IBM Model M keyboard spares To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Message-ID: <4899F73F.3010608 at gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Liam Proven wrote: > /The/ classic PC keyboard, IMHO. The Model M came out *waay* after the PC. The 84-key is the one for the PC. I don't think the Model M is even compatible with the PC. Peace... Sridhar ------------Reply: People reverently talk about the Model M as though there was only one; in fact there were probably almost 50 different versions, including at least one for the late model XT (no indicator lights) and I *think* that at least one version was dual-mode as well. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_M_Keyboard To the OP: I have a few different ones in the scrap pile somewhere, if you can send me a picture of yours; does it have the removable keycaps? I understand that replacing the spacebar on one of the older Model Ms is a bit of a challenge BTW. m From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Aug 6 18:20:14 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 19:20:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: HP 5036A microprocessor lab - searching for copy of "Practical Microprocessors" Message-ID: <4395.96.243.162.27.1218064814.squirrel@mail.neurotica.com> On Wed, August 6, 2008 1:50 pm, Stuart Johnson wrote: > This looks like an opportunity for someone with the manual, proper > equipment, and time - anyone? > > Simon, do you have the required setup to do this without damaging the > book? I have the manual (with a 5036A) and am willing to loan it out, but not if the spine must be cut. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From kth at srv.net Wed Aug 6 19:12:30 2008 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 18:12:30 -0600 Subject: MIT want to make $12 Apple II clone In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20080806113327.058f6580@mail.threedee.com> References: <4898D271.6040002@jetnet.ab.ca> <200808052244.m75Miafp032342@floodgap.com> <4898C2BC.606.7B6FBFE@cclist.sydex.com> <18585.45160.30500.762066@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <6.2.3.4.2.20080806104205.05d2ee20@mail.threedee.com> <18585.52665.834481.493383@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <6.2.3.4.2.20080806113327.058f6580@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: <489A3DEE.2040901@srv.net> John Foust wrote: > At 11:13 AM 8/6/2008, Paul Koning wrote: > >> John> I thought it was just tokenized because there were >> John> "de-compilers" that restored "compiled" code to real source. >> >> You may be thinking of RT-11 BASIC, where the "list" command actually >> did exactly that. >> > > No, I'm think of circa '83 VAX-based BASIC-Plus (2?). > The decompilers I know of worked on PDP-11 Basic+ code (RSTS/E, and possibly other OS's). It compiled the source code into push-pop opcodes. VAX-Basic, and basic+2 compiled to machine language, and were not easily decompiled (optimizations made it even harder). I have the source for two basic+ decompilers for RSTS/E. They are both based on the bpcref code (a cross reference program that shipped with RSTS/E as source for a while). From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Wed Aug 6 22:51:10 2008 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 21:51:10 -0600 Subject: IBM Model M keyboard spares In-Reply-To: <48999704.3888.AF436E5@cclist.sydex.com> References: <575131af0808061032j2d59a5e0id53f06dbaf1b7626@mail.gmail.com>, <4899F73F.3010608@gmail.com> <48999704.3888.AF436E5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <489A712E.9000206@brutman.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 6 Aug 2008 at 15:10, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >> The Model M came out *waay* after the PC. The 84-key is the one for the >> PC. I don't think the Model M is even compatible with the PC. > > PC AT 5170, yes--PC 5150, no--I tried it. Different protocol. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > Not necessarily true. I have several versions of the Model M here that will work on a 5170 or 5150/5160. From my experiments it looks as though many of the Model Ms built until the early 90s could auto-switch between the two protocols. Don't tell the 5160 I have at work that it has a Model M on it. (And it's not the funny Model M without the indicator lights. That one without the indicator lights (1390120) was specifically made for the XT.) Mike From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 21:52:21 2008 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 19:52:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MIT based on rip off NES and not Apple II In-Reply-To: <489A3DEE.2040901@srv.net> Message-ID: <113131.20508.qm@web56211.mail.re3.yahoo.com> It seems that the information was wrong it they are basing it on a machine called the Victor 70, which seems to be a clone of the Nintendo Famicom. All the groups information is given in the link below, it talks about who, what, where, when and why. But they are seriously lacking in the computer history section under resources. So basically they are going back to 8bit technology that uses TV to being computers to the masses. While it's not Apple or C64, it's still cool to see that older tech is being used by the young. Here is the groups website: http://design4dev.wetpaint.com/page/TV+Computer?t=anon A Computer World Article http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9111759 Pictures of the Victor. http://picasaweb.google.co.in/dereklomas/TVComputer From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Aug 6 23:01:26 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 00:01:26 -0400 Subject: Stream of Consciousness Was: Re: IBM Model M keyboard spares In-Reply-To: <489A2B4B.3000103@nktelco.net> References: <575131af0808061032j2d59a5e0id53f06dbaf1b7626@mail.gmail.com> <4899F73F.3010608@gmail.com> <489A2B4B.3000103@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <200808070001.26437.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 06 August 2008 18:52, Charles H Dickman wrote: > Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > > Liam Proven wrote: > >> /The/ classic PC keyboard, IMHO. > > > > The Model M came out *waay* after the PC. The 84-key is the one for > > the PC. I don't think the Model M is even compatible with the PC. > > > > Peace... Sridhar > > The stream of consciousness nature of this list is very enlightening. I > learn things from subject drift that I never expected. Usually the drift > is what I learn from, since the original question is not useful to me. I like it here... :-) > At the same time, it can be frustrating for the OP because his question > often gets lost in the drift. Ah, but the OP did get his question answered, from what I recall. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 6 23:20:28 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 21:20:28 -0700 Subject: IBM Model M keyboard spares In-Reply-To: <489A712E.9000206@brutman.com> References: <575131af0808061032j2d59a5e0id53f06dbaf1b7626@mail.gmail.com>, <48999704.3888.AF436E5@cclist.sydex.com>, <489A712E.9000206@brutman.com> Message-ID: <489A159C.13989.CE2B534@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Aug 2008 at 21:51, Michael B. Brutman wrote: > I have several versions of the Model M here that will work on a 5170 or > 5150/5160. From my experiments it looks as though many of the Model Ms > built until the early 90s could auto-switch between the two protocols. > > Don't tell the 5160 I have at work that it has a Model M on it. (And > it's not the funny Model M without the indicator lights. That one > without the indicator lights (1390120) was specifically made for the XT.) Interesting--I've several variations of the M here. I'll have to try them individually on a 5160 to see which do and which don't work. Since the first attempt with one didn't, I'd assumed that it would hold for all models of the model M (submodels?). Apparently not. Thanks, Chuck From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Aug 6 23:31:47 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 23:31:47 -0500 Subject: MIT based on rip off NES and not Apple II In-Reply-To: <113131.20508.qm@web56211.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <489A3DEE.2040901@srv.net> <113131.20508.qm@web56211.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730808062131t6e9f88a3x71b09ac91889045b@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Aug 6, 2008 at 9:52 PM, Christian Liendo wrote: > It seems that the information was wrong it they are basing it on a machine called the Victor 70, which seems to be a clone of the Nintendo Famicom. > > Pictures of the Victor. > > http://picasaweb.google.co.in/dereklomas/TVComputer That looks awfully similar (in concept at least) to the Subor, a Russian (?) clone of the NES built into a PC keyboard: http://sovietsouvenirs.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=5&products_id=404 From tonym at compusource.net Thu Aug 7 00:00:24 2008 From: tonym at compusource.net (tonym) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 05:00:24 GMT Subject: MIT based on rip off NES and not Apple II Message-ID: <200808070100888.SM03828@[63.69.23.239]> Doesn't matter - in the end it is all MADE IN CHINA ;) Tony -----Original Message----- From: Jason T silent700 at gmail.com Sent 8/7/2008 12:31:47 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: MIT based on rip off NES and not Apple II On Wed, Aug 6, 2008 at 9:52 PM, Christian Liendo christian_liendo at yahoo.com wrote: It seems that the information was wrong it they are basing it on a machine called the Victor 70, which seems to be a clone of the Nintendo Famicom. Pictures of the Victor. http://picasaweb.google.co.in/dereklomas/TVComputer That looks awfully similar (in concept at least) to the Subor, a Russian (?) clone of the NES built into a PC keyboard: http://sovietsouvenirs.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=5&products_id=404 From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 7 00:12:46 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 22:12:46 -0700 Subject: MIT based on rip off NES and not Apple II In-Reply-To: <51ea77730808062131t6e9f88a3x71b09ac91889045b@mail.gmail.com> References: <489A3DEE.2040901@srv.net>, <113131.20508.qm@web56211.mail.re3.yahoo.com>, <51ea77730808062131t6e9f88a3x71b09ac91889045b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <489A21DE.32478.D1297B0@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Aug 2008 at 23:31, Jason T wrote: > That looks awfully similar (in concept at least) to the Subor, a > Russian (?) clone of the NES built into a PC keyboard: > > http://sovietsouvenirs.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=5&products_id=404 According to this web page: http://phantom.sannata.ru/articles/subor.shtml The "Subor" is a clone of the Dendy (), which is a clone of NES/Famicon box. A clone of a clone! Are there any other examples of this? Cheers, Chuck From rickb at bensene.com Thu Aug 7 00:22:45 2008 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 22:22:45 -0700 Subject: Collecting philosophy (Was: Computer collectors are no longer the dweebiest...) In-Reply-To: <489A01E7.8010904@pacbell.net> References: <489A01E7.8010904@pacbell.net> Message-ID: Tony Duell wrote: > Am I the only 'collector' who doesn't much care about the value of the > items hi his colelction? I collect things becuase I'm interested in them, > I find them beautiful (in a somewhat odd way, I can appreciate the good > design in a PDP11 or HP98x0 CPU, for example). I don't collect in the > hope that I'll be able to sell them later for more money. No, Tony, at least there is someone else who has the same appreciation (not in terms of monetary value doing such), but in the glory of design and implementation. I don't care about the value of the calculators in the Old Calculator Museum. Frankly, I really could care less what they are worth. I do what I do because I have a great passion for this particular part of our technological history, and there is such a wonderful diversity of methods that various companies and engineers invented to do the same basic functions, and each has its own beauty and individuality, as well as (in some cases) places in history that are significant. I state in the website that none of the stuff is for sale. It isn't. When I die, it'll be taken care of properly. That's all that matters to me. This stuff isn't an investment, except in the time that I spend pondering the designs and troubleshooting machines that there are no schematics for, or figuring out how to program a programmable calculator that there's no documentation known to exist in terms of its instruction set, as well as documenting what tidbits I can learn on the website for others to hopefully get some enjoyment and education from. Tinkering around with this stuff makes me happy. Digging through old documents and finding shreds of historical significance that tie together is the most wonderful kind of detective work. Communicating with folks who "were there", like Tom Osborn(HP 9100/9800), Allen Frankel (son of Stanley Frankel, developer of the SCM 240SR, and the design of the Diehl Combitron, and some early small computers, as well as being a nuclear physicist involved in the Manhattan Project), Harold Koplow (Microcode designer of Wang's 700-Series machines and others, including the 2200 BASIC computer, and word-processing systems), and many others is such a great privilege. Sharing what I learn is pure joy. The value is in those things, not dollars. I agree completely with Tony's philosophy. Others may feel differently about these kinds of things, and that's their right, and I'll fight to the death to defend their right to feel that way, as well as for the right for Tony and myself think the way we do. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From vrs at msn.com Thu Aug 7 00:26:08 2008 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 22:26:08 -0700 Subject: RF08/RS08 emulation References: Message-ID: From: "Rich Alderson" > General question for PDP-8 fans: I've seen references to someone having > created an RF08/RS08 replacement. Does anyone on the list know details > of such a project? I have a project like that. You can find Eagle drawings at http://www.so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/cadlib.html. Look for "RF08: RF08 Replacement" in the green scrolling region. The idea was to order an 8"x11" panel containing a controller, two drive pairs, and a light panel. The "drive pairs" are implemented with pairs of SRAM chips, which taken together form a removable 512Kw battery backed store. Two such stores provide the full 1Mw of storage. The 40 pin headers take BC08J cables or the equivalent, to connect the controller to a Posibus PDP-8. The design is my rework of C. Morris' DF32 replacement (which I also now own the prototype of). Like many of my projects, it was fun to think about the design, but I haven't yet made the time to actually build and debug it. Vince N.B.: The 74LS151's in the write-protect section need to be real TTL, and float their inputs high without pull-ups. Of course, if you don't care about separate write-protect switches for each 32K, you can just hard wire the inputs to the right values :-). From gordon at gjcp.net Wed Aug 6 03:41:21 2008 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon J. C. Pearce) Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 09:41:21 +0100 Subject: IC collecting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1218012081.6545.6.camel@kusanagi> On Tue, 2008-08-05 at 11:44 -0400, Barber, Brennan wrote: > > Hi, > > I cam across your posting and wanted to see if you also collected IC's? > Finding other collectors is a rarity for me so I thought I would shoot > you and e-mail. I collect clones (russian, eastern block, etc.), Intel > engineering samples and any IBM cpus. I prefer to keep the ICs in the boards ;-) I bought a decent haul of PDP-11/23 stuff from a guy in Australia, having outbid a chip collector by a penny or two at the last minute. Those boards are now assembled up in a spare BA23 I had, sitting in a mate's workshop where it occasionally gets fired up and played with. I like having butterflies in my garden, too. Butterflies flying around, not dead in little boxes. Gordon From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Aug 6 10:41:24 2008 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 08:41:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: dc motors In-Reply-To: <4898A347.4000105@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <828938.50301.qm@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> on each rear wheel of what? A car? That appears to be a more or less commonly found treadmill motor. People sometimes use those for lathes and whatnot. --- On Tue, 8/5/08, Al Kossow wrote: > From: Al Kossow > Subject: dc motors > To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org > Date: Tuesday, August 5, 2008, 3:00 PM > one of these on each rear wheel would be pretty scary > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130244335350 From vpmmviii at prevelakis.net Wed Aug 6 14:33:11 2008 From: vpmmviii at prevelakis.net (Vassilis Prevelakis) Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 15:33:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Double-Sided disk drives reading Single-Sided disks (HP 9122 vs 9121) Message-ID: <200808061933.m76JXBMH001967@caladan-columbia.cs.columbia.edu> JP Hindin wrote: > My HP Logic Analyser (1630G) can talk to a HP 9121 via HP-IB. I have found > a 9122, which is a double-sided version of the same device, as far as I > can tell. I'm fairly confident the 1630G won't care [...] Unfortunately, the HP9121 and HP9122 are very different. The former uses the Amigo protocol to communicate with the host while the HP9122 uses the more recent SS-80 protocol. If the 1630G can use both protocols you are OK, otherwise you're stuck. The HP-85 had an optional ROM that allowed use of SS-80 drives, perhaps there is a firmware update for the 1630G that talks SS-80. Regards **vp From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Aug 7 03:30:58 2008 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 10:30:58 +0200 (CEST) Subject: p-Code environments In-Reply-To: <20080806174639.GD27122@usap.gov> References: <4898D271.6040002@jetnet.ab.ca> <200808052244.m75Miafp032342@floodgap.com> <4898C2BC.606.7B6FBFE@cclist.sydex.com> <18585.45160.30500.762066@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <6.2.3.4.2.20080806104205.05d2ee20@mail.threedee.com> <18585.52665.834481.493383@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <6.2.3.4.2.20080806113327.058f6580@mail.threedee.com> <18585.56980.456590.989156@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20080806174639.GD27122@usap.gov> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Aug 2008, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, Aug 06, 2008 at 01:25:40PM -0400, Paul Koning wrote: >> By the way, I meant to mention another compiler that did something >> like P-code: RT-11 Fortran. The actual scheme was called "threaded >> code" because it was basically a stream of function pointers. (Come >> to think of it, that's a common Forth encoding as well.) That's about >> as fast as straight code if most of what you need is calls to support >> functions, and more compact because you're not including the opcode >> word. > That scheme sort of reminds me of FORTRAN IV for the PDP-8 - IIRC, the > compiler produces, mostly, a stream of FPP instructions that either get > executed by a real FPP-12 (or FPP-8?) _or_, lacking math hardware, get > emulated by wads of PDP-8 instructions. > > The difference is rather than a stream of function pointers, it's a > stream of math co-processor instructions that are either executed by > real hardware or by an emulator library. In either environment, though, > the object code is the same. And this all is similar to what compilers did in the 50s. The ACT-V compiler (ACT-I and ACT-III, too) simply generates a stream of runtime system calls (the runtime system is called 'basic subroutines'). You can even compile your program by hand since these subroutine calls are documented in the manual. Christian From steve at cosam.org Thu Aug 7 05:15:22 2008 From: steve at cosam.org (Steve Maddison) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 12:15:22 +0200 Subject: Line time clock wanted for PDP-11 Message-ID: <95838e090808070315m3fb92853r53d0df1564df3ce5@mail.gmail.com> Hi all, I'm looking for a KW11-L line time clock (that's the M787) for a PDP-11. I don't suppose anyone happens to have one lying around they'd be willing to part with for a reasonable sum or maybe trade for other DEC stuff? A KE11-F floating point module (M7239) would also be a welcome addition, although I suspect there's much less chance anyone has one of those going spare ;-) Cheers, -- Steve Maddison http://www.cosam.org/ From lproven at gmail.com Thu Aug 7 06:31:09 2008 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 12:31:09 +0100 Subject: IBM Model M keyboard spares In-Reply-To: <4899F73F.3010608@gmail.com> References: <575131af0808061032j2d59a5e0id53f06dbaf1b7626@mail.gmail.com> <4899F73F.3010608@gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0808070431p27493743y63a5291b00b22a30@mail.gmail.com> 2008/8/6 Sridhar Ayengar : > Liam Proven wrote: >> >> /The/ classic PC keyboard, IMHO. > > The Model M came out *waay* after the PC. The 84-key is the one for the PC. > I don't think the Model M is even compatible with the PC. > > Peace... Sridhar Oh, come on, Sridhar, don't be so anally retentive or obsessive! I didn't say "the classic IBM model 5250 PC-XT keyboard" or anything of the kind. I said PC. "PC" is a generic term, which to hundreds of millions around the world just means a Personal Computer. In fact the PC to which the model M I am typing on right now is attached to is, as it happens, an Apple 20" 2GH PowerPC G5 iMac. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Thu Aug 7 06:32:47 2008 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 12:32:47 +0100 Subject: IBM Model M keyboard spares In-Reply-To: References: <575131af0808061032j2d59a5e0id53f06dbaf1b7626@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0808070432n21fb8f6fvb80e2e28c17345c8@mail.gmail.com> 2008/8/6 David Griffith : > On Wed, 6 Aug 2008, Liam Proven wrote: > >> /The/ classic PC keyboard, IMHO. >> >> Alas, one of my treasured 'boards fell off a table and its space bar >> is shattered. Anyone know where I could buy a spare spacebar? > > Right here: > http://www.clickykeyboards.com/index.cfm/fa/categories.main/parentcat/10191 > > -- > David Griffith > dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu > > A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. > Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? > A: Top-posting. > Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? Thanks! Very helpful! The snag is, [a] while they only want a very reasonable $2 for a spacebar, they want $30 for postage, and [b], they have a minimum order of $10 and every keyboard they list seems to be out of stock. I've mailed him... We shall see. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Thu Aug 7 06:33:58 2008 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 12:33:58 +0100 Subject: IBM Model M keyboard spares In-Reply-To: References: <575131af0808061032j2d59a5e0id53f06dbaf1b7626@mail.gmail.com> <4899B42D.10669.B662250@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <575131af0808070433u61b27e39mf9942ac2281c6555@mail.gmail.com> 2008/8/6 Gene Buckle : >>> /The/ classic PC keyboard, IMHO. >>> >>> Alas, one of my treasured 'boards fell off a table and its space bar >>> is shattered. Anyone know where I could buy a spare spacebar? >> >> I wonder if PCkeyboards.com has one that will work. It could be sent >> via post to the UK. >> > http://www.clickykeyboards.com/index.cfm/fa/categories.main/parentcat/10191 > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. Hey, Gene, how's it going? You may recognise me from the FreeGEM list. That's a good thought - I shall mail them and ask. Thanks! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Thu Aug 7 06:36:38 2008 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 12:36:38 +0100 Subject: IBM Model M keyboard spares In-Reply-To: <01C8F7F8.18021980@host-208-72-122-1.dyn.295.ca> References: <01C8F7F8.18021980@host-208-72-122-1.dyn.295.ca> Message-ID: <575131af0808070436p3fd0c674y8fd26cbfb5e7c436@mail.gmail.com> 2008/8/7 M H Stein : > -----------Original Message(s): > > Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 15:10:55 -0400 > From: Sridhar Ayengar > Subject: Re: IBM Model M keyboard spares > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Message-ID: <4899F73F.3010608 at gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed > > Liam Proven wrote: >> /The/ classic PC keyboard, IMHO. > > The Model M came out *waay* after the PC. The 84-key is the one for the > PC. I don't think the Model M is even compatible with the PC. > > Peace... Sridhar > > ------------Reply: > > People reverently talk about the Model M as though there was only one; > in fact there were probably almost 50 different versions, including at least > one for the late model XT (no indicator lights) and I *think* that at least one > version was dual-mode as well. > > See: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_M_Keyboard > > To the OP: > > I have a few different ones in the scrap pile somewhere, if you can send me > a picture of yours; does it have the removable keycaps? > > I understand that replacing the spacebar on one of the older Model Ms > is a bit of a challenge BTW. > > m I think I've repaired a few of these before by replacing spacebars that had become detached, so there is hope. That's a very kind offer. I'll take a few pics of the affected unit & let you know. Yes, it has removable caps; in fact, of my 3 of them, it's the one which I've turned into a Dvorak 'board. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From tony.eros at machm.org Thu Aug 7 07:39:08 2008 From: tony.eros at machm.org (Anthony L. Eros) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 08:39:08 -0400 Subject: BASIC-Plus decompiler Message-ID: > What I'm remembering is a BASIC decompiler, written in BASIC, > that was running on RSTS/e circa 1983. So that was BP, not BP2, > right? Circa 1983? Chances are it's BP2. When I was a high school senior in 1978, I wrote a BP2 decompiler for an Independent Study project, so BASIC-PLUS-2 had been around for quite some time by 1983. I got some of my first exposure to computers through Project DELTA (hi, Rich!!), and was fascinated by PPCODE. I still have a source listing at home on a VERY faded length of Teletype paper. -- Tony From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 07:53:20 2008 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 05:53:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Argo Electronics in NYC to close In-Reply-To: <828938.50301.qm@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <21614.69849.qm@web56203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> I just saw a commercial on NY1 stating that Argo Electronics is closing. They were the last Electronic Surplus stores on Canal St. I never saw a commercial for Argo. For those of you that don't know the significance. Back in the 80s (probably back in the 70s too but I am not that old), Canal St in NYC had many electronic surplus stores. Everything from radios to oscilloscopes. There are still electronic stores there but nothing like Argo. I remember buying all sorts of stuff. Well it looks like they are closing. Here are some sites that show pictures of Argo http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2008/02/argo_electronics_surplus.html http://www.flickr.com/photos/pmtorrone/tags/argoelectronics/ The address 393 Canal St New York, NY 10013-1691 Phone: (212) 226-4945 From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Aug 7 08:08:54 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 09:08:54 -0400 Subject: Argo Electronics in NYC to close In-Reply-To: <21614.69849.qm@web56203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <828938.50301.qm@web65507.mail.ac4.yahoo.com> <21614.69849.qm@web56203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > I just saw a commercial on NY1 stating that Argo Electronics is closing. They were the last Electronic Surplus stores on Canal St. I never saw a commercial for Argo. Did the "Motor and Blower" place close? I have not been down there for a couple of years. Leeds is still kicking, too, but they are not on Canal. -- Will From christian_liendo at yahoo.com Thu Aug 7 08:12:52 2008 From: christian_liendo at yahoo.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 06:12:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Argo Electronics in NYC to close In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <366586.49512.qm@web56202.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Don't know... I may go down today after work. --- On Thu, 8/7/08, William Donzelli wrote: > From: William Donzelli > Subject: Re: Argo Electronics in NYC to close > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Date: Thursday, August 7, 2008, 9:08 AM > > I just saw a commercial on NY1 stating that Argo > Electronics is closing. They were the last Electronic > Surplus stores on Canal St. I never saw a commercial for > Argo. > > Did the "Motor and Blower" place close? I have > not been down there for > a couple of years. > > Leeds is still kicking, too, but they are not on Canal. > > -- > Will From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Aug 7 09:02:09 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 07:02:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM Model M keyboard spares In-Reply-To: <575131af0808070433u61b27e39mf9942ac2281c6555@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0808061032j2d59a5e0id53f06dbaf1b7626@mail.gmail.com> <4899B42D.10669.B662250@cclist.sydex.com> <575131af0808070433u61b27e39mf9942ac2281c6555@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > > Hey, Gene, how's it going? You may recognise me from the FreeGEM list. > > That's a good thought - I shall mail them and ask. Thanks! Things are going well. $30 is stupid for shipping - you'd almost be better off finding a donor at a local recycler. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Aug 7 09:02:21 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 11:02:21 -0300 Subject: MIT based on rip off NES and not Apple II References: <113131.20508.qm@web56211.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <008701c8f896$b5529450$0102a8c0@portajara> > Pictures of the Victor. > http://picasaweb.google.co.in/dereklomas/TVComputer This is a **very** common "computer" in Brazil, it is sold as "magic computer" by Dynacom, and it is really a NES with some carts :oD From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Aug 7 10:42:55 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 10:42:55 -0500 Subject: Computer collectors are no longer the dweebiest people in the In-Reply-To: <00ae01c8f813$5c96e880$6601a8c0@game> References: <00ae01c8f813$5c96e880$6601a8c0@game> Message-ID: <489B17FF.7020108@gmail.com> Teo Zenios wrote: > How many people with original Apple I's would run them very often if at all? I'd run it if I had one. The way I figure it: a) Those ICs are going to die eventually anyway, whether I run it or not, b) There's enough knowledge of the machine out there that we don't need to preserve operational ones for historical research purposes, c) The price of Apple I's is just silly. ... although in reality if I had one I'd trade it for something more appealing (or, given the ridiculous value, lots of things that were more appealing :-) cheers Jules From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Aug 7 10:48:26 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 10:48:26 -0500 Subject: question aaout ISP's In-Reply-To: <4899FB11.2020205@gmail.com> References: <507520.26074.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <48987C9F.8080503@jbrain.com> <4899F65F.8000504@gmail.com> <4899FB11.2020205@gmail.com> Message-ID: <489B194A.4020101@gmail.com> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > but dial-up sucks. Surely it fits better with vintage computer collecting? I'm surprised that any of us are on broadband... ;) Thankfully I missed the 300 baud (and earlier) era - but I still landed in the middle of 2400 times, and that was painful enough! Although I seem to remember being perfectly happy when things progressed to 33.6K - I couldn't imagine making use of anything faster, and all the various non-WWW services did all that I could ever need. cheers Jules From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Aug 7 11:02:09 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 09:02:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: question aaout ISP's In-Reply-To: <489B194A.4020101@gmail.com> References: <507520.26074.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <48987C9F.8080503@jbrain.com> <4899F65F.8000504@gmail.com> <4899FB11.2020205@gmail.com> <489B194A.4020101@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Aug 2008, Jules Richardson wrote: > Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> but dial-up sucks. > > Surely it fits better with vintage computer collecting? I'm surprised that > any of us are on broadband... ;) > > Thankfully I missed the 300 baud (and earlier) era - but I still landed in > the middle of 2400 times, and that was painful enough! Although I seem to > remember being perfectly happy when things progressed to 33.6K - I couldn't > imagine making use of anything faster, and all the various non-WWW services > did all that I could ever need. > 300 baud was great for reading messages, but it sucked hard when doing a full-disk transfer (Punter!) on a C-64. The sad thing is that the net has degraded into such a spam fest that real boards are starting to look pretty attractive again. While much diminished in size, FidoNet is still around and so are many other networks based on FidoNet standards. DoveNET has been doing really well in the last few years due to the resurgent Synchronet BBS software. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 7 11:02:26 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 09:02:26 -0700 Subject: COBOL quote in the news Message-ID: <489ABA22.8563.F6561BF@cclist.sydex.com> >From http://www.sacbee.com/111/story/1132588.html concerning the California budget crisis: The state payroll system is based on the COBOL, or Common Business Oriented Language, programming language - a code first introduced in 1959 and popularized in the 1960s and 1970s. "COBOL programmers are hard to come by these days," said Fred Forrer, the Sacramento-based CEO of MGT of America, a public-sector consulting firm. "It's certainly not a language that is taught. Oftentimes, you have to rely on retired annuitants to come back and help maintain the system until you're able to find a replacement." What does California's DMV use? Cheers, Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Aug 7 11:03:50 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 12:03:50 -0400 Subject: IBM Model M keyboard spares In-Reply-To: <575131af0808070431p27493743y63a5291b00b22a30@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0808061032j2d59a5e0id53f06dbaf1b7626@mail.gmail.com> <4899F73F.3010608@gmail.com> <575131af0808070431p27493743y63a5291b00b22a30@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <489B1CE6.5090902@gmail.com> Liam Proven wrote: > 2008/8/6 Sridhar Ayengar : >> Liam Proven wrote: >>> /The/ classic PC keyboard, IMHO. >> The Model M came out *waay* after the PC. The 84-key is the one for the PC. >> I don't think the Model M is even compatible with the PC. > > Oh, come on, Sridhar, don't be so anally retentive or obsessive! > > I didn't say "the classic IBM model 5250 PC-XT keyboard" or anything You don't want obsessive? Too bad! 8-) The 5250 is an IBM minicomputer terminal, not an XT keyboard! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_5250 Peace... Sridhar From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Aug 7 11:10:06 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 09:10:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM Model M keyboard spares In-Reply-To: <575131af0808070432n21fb8f6fvb80e2e28c17345c8@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0808061032j2d59a5e0id53f06dbaf1b7626@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0808070432n21fb8f6fvb80e2e28c17345c8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Aug 2008, Liam Proven wrote: > 2008/8/6 David Griffith : > > On Wed, 6 Aug 2008, Liam Proven wrote: > > > >> /The/ classic PC keyboard, IMHO. > >> > >> Alas, one of my treasured 'boards fell off a table and its space bar > >> is shattered. Anyone know where I could buy a spare spacebar? > > > > Right here: > > http://www.clickykeyboards.com/index.cfm/fa/categories.main/parentcat/10191 > > Thanks! Very helpful! The snag is, [a] while they only want a very > reasonable $2 for a spacebar, they want $30 for postage, and [b], they > have a minimum order of $10 and every keyboard they list seems to be > out of stock. > > I've mailed him... We shall see. It's similarly expensive to ship in the US. I've emailed Unicomp to see if they have parts. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From steve at radiorobots.com Thu Aug 7 11:18:54 2008 From: steve at radiorobots.com (steve stutman) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 12:18:54 -0400 Subject: Argo Electronics in NYC to close In-Reply-To: <21614.69849.qm@web56203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <21614.69849.qm@web56203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <489B206E.60107@radiorobots.com> Christian Liendo wrote: > I just saw a commercial on NY1 stating that Argo Electronics is closing. They were the last Electronic Surplus stores on Canal St. I never saw a commercial for Argo. > > For those of you that don't know the significance. Back in the 80s (probably back in the 70s too but I am not that old), Canal St in NYC had many electronic surplus stores. Everything from radios to oscilloscopes. There are still electronic stores there but nothing like Argo. I remember buying all sorts of stuff. Well it looks like they are closing. > > Here are some sites that show pictures of Argo > > http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2008/02/argo_electronics_surplus.html > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/pmtorrone/tags/argoelectronics/ > > The address > 393 Canal St > New York, NY 10013-1691 > Phone: (212) 226-4945 > > > > Also back in the 60s. From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Thu Aug 7 11:20:48 2008 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 12:20:48 -0400 Subject: p-Code environments References: <4898D271.6040002@jetnet.ab.ca> <200808052244.m75Miafp032342@floodgap.com> <4898C2BC.606.7B6FBFE@cclist.sydex.com> <18585.45160.30500.762066@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <6.2.3.4.2.20080806104205.05d2ee20@mail.threedee.com> <18585.52665.834481.493383@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <6.2.3.4.2.20080806113327.058f6580@mail.threedee.com> <18585.56980.456590.989156@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <20080806174639.GD27122@usap.gov> Message-ID: <18587.8416.365037.641299@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Another P-code example, somewhat strange: The TUTOR language compiler in the PLATO system (designed by University of Illinois, "marketed" by CDC) is a P-code compiler. Or more precisely, a hybrid. It generates P-code for most operations, but it generates machine code for arithmetic and low level loops. paul From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Aug 7 11:26:12 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 11:26:12 -0500 Subject: question aaout ISP's In-Reply-To: References: <507520.26074.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <48987C9F.8080503@jbrain.com> <4899F65F.8000504@gmail.com> <4899FB11.2020205@gmail.com> <489B194A.4020101@gmail.com> Message-ID: <489B2224.1070109@gmail.com> Gene Buckle wrote: >> Thankfully I missed the 300 baud (and earlier) era - but I still >> landed in the middle of 2400 times, and that was painful enough! >> Although I seem to remember being perfectly happy when things >> progressed to 33.6K - I couldn't imagine making use of anything >> faster, and all the various non-WWW services did all that I could ever >> need. > > 300 baud was great for reading messages I don't know - I didn't mind 2400 for that as it was "instant enough" for email-sized message download (it just annoyed me for other uses), but I suspect that I'd find 300 "too slow". >, but it sucked hard when doing a full-disk transfer (Punter!) on a C-64. Gah, I bet! I've done hard disk transfers at 9600 in recent times, and that was slow enough. > The sad thing is that the net > has degraded into such a spam fest that real boards are starting to look > pretty attractive again. I keep thinking about that. It's not only the spam, but the threats from ISPs to start watching what we do, the users who don't know how to protect their machines properly, or the people who over-stress the system at the expense of everyone else. It's a far cry from what it used to be! cheers Jules From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Aug 7 11:48:34 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 09:48:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: question aaout ISP's In-Reply-To: <489B2224.1070109@gmail.com> References: <507520.26074.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <48987C9F.8080503@jbrain.com> <4899F65F.8000504@gmail.com> <4899FB11.2020205@gmail.com> <489B194A.4020101@gmail.com> <489B2224.1070109@gmail.com> Message-ID: >> >> 300 baud was great for reading messages > > I don't know - I didn't mind 2400 for that as it was "instant enough" for > email-sized message download (it just annoyed me for other uses), but I > suspect that I'd find 300 "too slow". > Spend some time on a Citadel. It was actually ok. 1200 is readable but you need to pay really close attention. :) >> , but it sucked hard when doing a full-disk transfer (Punter!) on a C-64. > > Gah, I bet! I've done hard disk transfers at 9600 in recent times, and that > was slow enough. > The 1541 disks were 170k or so and took *forever* it seemed. :) >> The sad thing is that the net >> has degraded into such a spam fest that real boards are starting to look >> pretty attractive again. > > I keep thinking about that. It's not only the spam, but the threats from ISPs > to start watching what we do, the users who don't know how to protect their > machines properly, or the people who over-stress the system at the expense of > everyone else. It's a far cry from what it used to be! > A ton of effort has gone into using old bbs programs and platforms on the 'net. There are a number of tools like this: http://home.ica.net/~leifb/bbs/ which is used to put real C-64's up on the net running a bbs. There are other programs out there that do similar things, including fancy device drivers that look like a modem & comm port to windows, but there's a socket on the other end instead of a modem. Many of the older bbs programs that have source available were done using Turbo Pascal and those are easily recompiled under Linux using FPC. I've actually built a port of Telegard 2.7 that runs perfectly under Linux. The only thing that is missing form most of these "glue" solutions is encryption. It wouldn't be too hard to build a version that used SSH instead of regular telnet... g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From legalize at xmission.com Thu Aug 7 11:57:08 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 10:57:08 -0600 Subject: p-Code environments In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 07 Aug 2008 12:20:48 -0400. <18587.8416.365037.641299@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: In article <18587.8416.365037.641299 at gargle.gargle.HOWL>, Paul Koning writes: > Another P-code example, somewhat strange: > > The TUTOR language compiler in the PLATO system (designed by > University of Illinois, "marketed" by CDC) is a P-code compiler. Or > more precisely, a hybrid. It generates P-code for most operations, > but it generates machine code for arithmetic and low level loops. How did uTUTOR (microTUTOR) differ? I seem to recall that it downloaded directly into the terminal, which was a Z80. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From mikelee at tdh.com Thu Aug 7 11:55:19 2008 From: mikelee at tdh.com (Michael Lee) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 11:55:19 -0500 Subject: AT&T 3B1 Unix PC In-Reply-To: <080420080615.7078.48969E7C000414EE00001BA622243322829B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> References: <080420080615.7078.48969E7C000414EE00001BA622243322829B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> Message-ID: <489B28F7.5010404@tdh.com> Hi, Sorry, been busy as usual. I did pull them out and I have most parts for a full unit intact. What parts can you use? Also, these are parts for a Unix PC version of the 3b1 which may have different power supplies and casing than an actual 3b1. g-wright at att.net wrote: > Hi Michael, > > Did you figure out what you needed to do here ?? I can use some > of these items > > - Thanks, jerry > > > -------------- Original message from Michael Lee : -------------- > > > >> Anyone collect and/or need parts to the AT&T Unix PC? I've got a pile >> of systems I dismantled over a decade ago, and don't really want or know >> how to put back together. I bought them "new" as surplus by the pallet >> at the time, and about half of them were defective with only displaying >> horizontal lines when turned on. The monitors are perfect, I also have >> the 20Mb MFM drives and 5.25" drives, as well as the mainboards, >> plastics etc. I'm not sure exactly how many and what I have yet, but >> checking for interest here. Please reply if these are of interest at all. >> >> Any suggestions on the line problem? >> >> Mike Lee >> From classiccmp at vintage-computer.com Thu Aug 7 12:05:01 2008 From: classiccmp at vintage-computer.com (Erik Klein) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 10:05:01 -0700 Subject: IC collecting In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3afee7520808071005geedf794p8f25c1a0e2099168@mail.gmail.com> On Tue, Aug 5, 2008 at 8:44 AM, Barber, Brennan wrote: > > I cam across your posting and wanted to see if you also collected IC's? > Finding other collectors is a rarity for me so I thought I would shoot > you and e-mail. I collect clones (russian, eastern block, etc.), Intel > engineering samples and any IBM cpus. They don't quite meet your criteria, but I've got several CPUs posted at the VCGM right now including a nice ceramic TI 8080 and a Signetics N8X300. I've got others going up as I find time. These are not being cannibalized from boards, either, so no butterflies on pins here! Erik Klein www.vintage-computer.com www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum - The Vintage Computer Forums marketplace.vintage-computer.com - The Vintage Computer and Gaming Marketplace From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 7 12:18:18 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 10:18:18 -0700 Subject: question aaout ISP's In-Reply-To: References: <507520.26074.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com>, <489B194A.4020101@gmail.com>, Message-ID: <489ACBEA.10544.FAAD7A4@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Aug 2008 at 9:02, Gene Buckle wrote: > 300 baud was great for reading messages, but it sucked hard when doing a > full-disk transfer (Punter!) on a C-64. The sad thing is that the net has > degraded into such a spam fest that real boards are starting to look > pretty attractive again. While much diminished in size, FidoNet is still > around and so are many other networks based on FidoNet standards. DoveNET > has been doing really well in the last few years due to the resurgent > Synchronet BBS software. Inbetwixt the 1200 and 2400 baud periods, does anyone remember the Racal-Vadic protocol? ISTR, it was something like 1800 baud, using a 3450(?) modem. I had a couple of those back then; just wired them into the telco line without a DAA. When you called someone with another Racal modem, the difference in speed from 1200 was quite obvious. Cheers, Chuck From devonstopps at gmail.com Thu Aug 7 12:19:37 2008 From: devonstopps at gmail.com (Devon Stopps) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 13:19:37 -0400 Subject: AIX 3.2 Weird Networking Problem Message-ID: <489B2EA9.2060203@gmail.com> Thanks to all who helped out, I've got the problem sorted out. AIX 3.2 does not have a rmtcpip command, but, doing an rmdev on en0, then issuing the mktcpip command has solved the problem - guess it was something left over from the last site. T.H.x. Devon From drb at msu.edu Thu Aug 7 12:27:42 2008 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 13:27:42 -0400 Subject: question aaout ISP's In-Reply-To: (Your message of Thu, 07 Aug 2008 10:18:18 PDT.) <489ACBEA.10544.FAAD7A4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <489ACBEA.10544.FAAD7A4@cclist.sydex.com> <507520.26074.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com>, <489B194A.4020101@gmail.com>, Message-ID: <200808071727.m77HRg9g000552@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Inbetwixt the 1200 and 2400 baud periods, does anyone remember the > Racal-Vadic protocol? ISTR, it was something like 1800 baud, using a > 3450(?) modem. I had a couple of those back then; just wired them into > the telco line without a DAA. When you called someone with another > Racal modem, the difference in speed from 1200 was quite obvious. I don't recall an 1800 baud one on dialup. They had four-wire leased line modems that did 1800. Seems like the Vadic 1200 baud dialup ones, which had different tone sets from 212A, actually ran slightly faster than 1200. De From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Thu Aug 7 12:29:53 2008 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 13:29:53 -0400 Subject: p-Code environments References: <18587.8416.365037.641299@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <18587.12561.990659.728793@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Richard" == Richard writes: Richard> In article <18587.8416.365037.641299 at gargle.gargle.HOWL>, Richard> Paul Koning writes: >> Another P-code example, somewhat strange: >> >> The TUTOR language compiler in the PLATO system (designed by >> University of Illinois, "marketed" by CDC) is a P-code compiler. >> Or more precisely, a hybrid. It generates P-code for most >> operations, but it generates machine code for arithmetic and low >> level loops. Richard> How did uTUTOR (microTUTOR) differ? I seem to recall that Richard> it downloaded directly into the terminal, which was a Z80. 8080, actually. As far as I can tell microTUTOR is a more conventional p-code system, i.e., no machine code in the compiler output. paul From legalize at xmission.com Thu Aug 7 12:59:26 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 11:59:26 -0600 Subject: p-Code environments In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 07 Aug 2008 13:29:53 -0400. <18587.12561.990659.728793@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: In article <18587.12561.990659.728793 at gargle.gargle.HOWL>, Paul Koning writes: > Richard> How did uTUTOR (microTUTOR) differ? I seem to recall that > Richard> it downloaded directly into the terminal, which was a Z80. > > 8080, actually. Thanks for the correction. > As far as I can tell microTUTOR is a more conventional p-code system, > i.e., no machine code in the compiler output. I have a PLATO "Victor" terminal, which appears to run CP/M locally as well as the PLATO terminal software. I need to get the 8" floppies to Al at CHM for backup before I play with it more, but I believe it can run uTUTOR locally. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Thu Aug 7 13:01:41 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 12:01:41 -0600 Subject: question aaout ISP's In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 07 Aug 2008 10:18:18 -0700. <489ACBEA.10544.FAAD7A4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: In article <489ACBEA.10544.FAAD7A4 at cclist.sydex.com>, "Chuck Guzis" writes: > Inbetwixt the 1200 and 2400 baud periods, does anyone remember the > Racal-Vadic protocol? ISTR, it was something like 1800 baud, using a > 3450(?) modem. I had a couple of those back then; just wired them > into the telco line without a DAA. When you called someone with > another Racal modem, the difference in speed from 1200 was quite > obvious. I don't recall the brand of modem, but we got them from the phone company for a leased line connection between Project DELTA and udel's computing center where our PDP-11/70 was located. They were spec'ed at 1200 baud, but I discovered that they functioned just fine at 1800 baud. 50% performance boost! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 7 13:07:55 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 11:07:55 -0700 Subject: question aaout ISP's In-Reply-To: <200808071727.m77HRg9g000552@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <489ACBEA.10544.FAAD7A4@cclist.sydex.com>, <200808071727.m77HRg9g000552@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <489AD78B.18588.FD83F27@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Aug 2008 at 13:27, Dennis Boone wrote: > I don't recall an 1800 baud one on dialup. They had four-wire leased > line modems that did 1800. > > Seems like the Vadic 1200 baud dialup ones, which had different tone > sets from 212A, actually ran slightly faster than 1200. I dug through some old notes (curiosity will do that). I had the VA3451, the so-called "triple modem", which would do 103 and 212 signaling, as well as Racal-proprietary 1200 baud. My notes say that it was possible to push the Vadic speed a bit, once connected. Was it 1800? I don't know--my notes don't give that detail. Sigh...it's pretty surprising how much you can forget in a quarter of a century. Cheers, Chuck From nico at farumdata.dk Thu Aug 7 13:14:34 2008 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 20:14:34 +0200 Subject: COBOL quote in the news References: <489ABA22.8563.F6561BF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <002e01c8f8b9$7223dbd0$2101a8c0@finans> > >From http://www.sacbee.com/111/story/1132588.html concerning the > California budget crisis: > > The state payroll system is based on the COBOL, or Common Business > Oriented Language, programming language - a code first introduced in > 1959 and popularized in the 1960s and 1970s. > > "COBOL programmers are hard to come by these days," said Fred Forrer, > the Sacramento-based CEO of MGT of America, a public-sector > consulting firm. "It's certainly not a language that is taught. > Oftentimes, you have to rely on retired annuitants to come back and > help maintain the system until you're able to find a replacement." > In Denmark (and probably the rest of Europe) we have the same problem. I recently had a consultancy contract with a major bank, and the majority of the consultants had seen their 50th birthday. I'm 63.... The crisis is so big, that the bank has taken to educating programmers themselves, but only for the banks own purposes. That means, that they will not learn how to define files, how to use Unit Record, etc etc. All they learn, apart from the Cobol syntax, is how to call modules talking to DB2 tables ! The same problem is now emerging for PL/1 programmers. Nico From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Aug 7 13:19:33 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 11:19:33 -0700 Subject: COBOL quote in the news In-Reply-To: <489ABA22.8563.F6561BF@cclist.sydex.com> References: <489ABA22.8563.F6561BF@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <489B3CB5.7070806@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > "COBOL programmers are hard to come by these days," said Fred Forrer, > the Sacramento-based CEO of MGT of America, a public-sector > consulting firm. "It's certainly not a language that is taught. > Oftentimes, you have to rely on retired annuitants to come back and > help maintain the system until you're able to find a replacement." It's not at all hard to find COBOL programmers, and they are NOT all retired. Offer a decent salary, and you'll get them. What the state is specifically trying to do, though is to cut everyone's salaries, so how likely is it that they'll offer a good salary to a COBOL programmer. The real story is that it's a bunch of political posturing. From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Aug 7 13:23:45 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 11:23:45 -0700 Subject: AT&T 3B1 Unix PC In-Reply-To: <489B28F7.5010404@tdh.com> References: <080420080615.7078.48969E7C000414EE00001BA622243322829B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> <489B28F7.5010404@tdh.com> Message-ID: <489B3DB1.6010408@brouhaha.com> Michael Lee wrote: > Sorry, been busy as usual. I did pull them out and I have most parts > for a full unit intact. What parts can you use? Also, these are parts > for a Unix PC version of the 3b1 which may have different power supplies > and casing than an actual 3b1. Both models are a "Unix PC". The original model is the 7300, and uses a half-height drive. Standard drives were 10MB or 20MB. The newer model is the 3B1, and has a "hump" to accommodate a full-height drive, and a higher-rated power supply. Standard drives were 40MB or 67MB. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Aug 7 13:27:56 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 13:27:56 -0500 Subject: question aaout ISP's In-Reply-To: <489AD78B.18588.FD83F27@cclist.sydex.com> References: <489ACBEA.10544.FAAD7A4@cclist.sydex.com>, <200808071727.m77HRg9g000552@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <489AD78B.18588.FD83F27@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <489B3EAC.3090304@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Sigh...it's pretty surprising how much you can forget in a quarter of > a century. ... and all the things you can think of that you've forgotten probably amount to a fraction of the things that you don't remember ever knowing. Or something. :) From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Aug 7 13:25:27 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 14:25:27 -0400 Subject: Argo Electronics in NYC to close In-Reply-To: <21614.69849.qm@web56203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> References: <21614.69849.qm@web56203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200808071425.31318.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 07 August 2008 08:53, Christian Liendo wrote: > I just saw a commercial on NY1 stating that Argo Electronics is closing. > They were the last Electronic Surplus stores on Canal St. I never saw a > commercial for Argo. > > For those of you that don't know the significance. Back in the 80s > (probably back in the 70s too but I am not that old), Canal St in NYC had > many electronic surplus stores. Everything from radios to oscilloscopes. > There are still electronic stores there but nothing like Argo. I remember > buying all sorts of stuff. Well it looks like they are closing. I didn't know there _were_ any places left in that area... I guess I just didn't look far enough when I last looked. When are they closing? Heck, I bought *lots* of stuff on Canal St. way back when, including the first TTL I ever messed with, among a lot of other things. About the only interesting "electronics junk" place I know of in the NYC area is Leeds Radio (easy to find online too), but they're out in Brooklyn someplace in an area that I'm not familiar with, though I plan to make a trip out there one of these days. And places like that have got me in the habit of collecting a lot of electronics junk, for several decades now, so if there's any bit of stuff you guys are looking for, feel free to email me offlist. Not much big iron at all, but lots and lots of parts. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Aug 7 13:41:30 2008 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 11:41:30 -0700 Subject: segmented memory models In-Reply-To: <489620FF.21030.2852BB4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <4896702E.6050002@jbrain.com> <4896774E.9060002@gmail.com> <489620FF.21030.2852BB4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Aug 3, 2008 at 9:19 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Without the then-undocumented LOADALL instruction, protected-mode > Windows may have been delayed until the 80386. Quel horreur! Ummmm..... Protected-mode Windows WAS delayed until the 80386. (Or am I missing the joke?) Windows 286 (aka 2.10) was real mode. Windows 386 (also having version number 2.10) had a 386 protected mode kernel that used the virtual 8086 mode to separate tasks. AFAIK, the first windows with a 286 protected mode was Windows 3.0 with its "standard mode". A lot of Windows 286 apps wouldn't run in standard mode. Eric From RichA at vulcan.com Thu Aug 7 13:45:14 2008 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 11:45:14 -0700 Subject: RF08/RS08 emulation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Vincent Slyngstad Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 10:26 PM > From: "Rich Alderson" >> General question for PDP-8 fans: I've seen references to someone having >> created an RF08/RS08 replacement. Does anyone on the list know details >> of such a project? > I have a project like that. You can find Eagle drawings at > http://www.so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/cadlib.html. > Look for "RF08: RF08 Replacement" in the green scrolling region. Thanks, Vince! That's the kind of thing I was looking for! Rich From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Aug 7 14:02:21 2008 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 12:02:21 -0700 Subject: segmented memory models In-Reply-To: <489764DC.1060407@jbrain.com> References: <489764DC.1060407@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 1:21 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > Did an MMU exist for the 8086? Most of the PC compatible 8086/8088 machines in my collection have one or two. The most common variety is on the graphics card to map graphics memory into the address space of the processor. The second most common would be EMS cards, which depending upon their vintage could map 16kB pages of expanded memory into a 64k window (EMS 1.0-3.0) or remap any 16kB page in the processor address space to expanded memory (EEMS or EMS 4.0). From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 7 14:45:40 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 12:45:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM Model M keyboard spares In-Reply-To: <575131af0808070431p27493743y63a5291b00b22a30@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0808061032j2d59a5e0id53f06dbaf1b7626@mail.gmail.com> <4899F73F.3010608@gmail.com> <575131af0808070431p27493743y63a5291b00b22a30@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080807124217.I34639@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 7 Aug 2008, Liam Proven wrote: > 2008/8/6 Sridhar Ayengar : > > Liam Proven wrote: > >> > >> /The/ classic PC keyboard, IMHO. > > > > The Model M came out *waay* after the PC. The 84-key is the one for the PC. > > I don't think the Model M is even compatible with the PC. > > > > Peace... Sridhar > > Oh, come on, Sridhar, don't be so anally retentive or obsessive! > > I didn't say "the classic IBM model 5250 PC-XT keyboard" or anything > of the kind. I said PC. "PC" is a generic term, which to hundreds of > millions around the world just means a Personal Computer. In fact the > PC to which the model M I am typing on right now is attached to is, as > it happens, an Apple 20" 2GH PowerPC G5 iMac. It is easy to parse what you said to be referring to "classic PC". Would an Apple 20" 2GH PowerPC G5 iMac be considered a "classic PC"? In THIS mob, "classic PC" means 5150. Even those who avoid the IBM products would be considered "5150" by those familiar with police radio codes. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 7 14:54:39 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 12:54:39 -0700 Subject: segmented memory models In-Reply-To: References: , <489620FF.21030.2852BB4@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <489AF08F.32661.1039F928@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Aug 2008 at 11:41, Eric J Korpela wrote: > AFAIK, the first windows with a 286 protected mode was Windows 3.0 > with its "standard mode". A lot of Windows 286 apps wouldn't run in > standard mode. Well, to be fair, Windows 286 and Windows 386 appeared at virtually the same time. Although 286 used the HMA, if available, you're absolutely correct in that it didn't make use of 286 protected mode. That was still the province of the "DOS extender" stuff like Phar Lap. ISTR Windows 3.0 "standard mode" on a 386 could be considerably faster than using the 386 "enhanced" mode--if you had enough memory installed. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Thu Aug 7 15:03:17 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 20:03:17 +0000 Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: <489B194A.4020101@gmail.com> References: <507520.26074.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4899F65F.8000504@gmail.com> <4899FB11.2020205@gmail.com> <489B194A.4020101@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080807200317.GB19776@usap.gov> On Thu, Aug 07, 2008 at 10:48:26AM -0500, Jules Richardson wrote: > Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >but dial-up sucks. > > Surely it fits better with vintage computer collecting? I'm surprised that > any of us are on broadband... ;) > > Thankfully I missed the 300 baud (and earlier) era I didn't - my first modem experiences were with acoustic couplers and DECwriters in the educational environment (we didn't have one at my school, but I had access to one at the university down the block from where I grew up), and with a VIC Modem c. 1982. I got on CompuServe (until my parents balked at the mounting costs), and local BBSes. Up until I was a beta-tester for the C-64 VidTex client (for guys that became my co-workers 20 years later), I used my own, heavily- tweaked, terminal emulator program on a C-64 (first BASIC, then BASIC/machine-language hybrid). > - but I still landed in > the middle of 2400 times, and that was painful enough! I didn't get a 2400 baud modem until the late 1980s - right before that, I was using non-Hayes 1200 baud modems (Cermetek and Ventel) with real VT100s for dialling into work and "computer aided instruction" classes at that same university down the street. I finally upgraded when several events coincided - I got a 20MB hard disk on my Amiga (ST-225 w/ISA controller and "The Wedge" ISA adapter), I got UUCP working on that Amiga, and Goldstar came out with a $99 2400 baud modem. That rig racked up many, many hours of UUCP time to a friend down the street who eventually founded an ISP. To tie it into another recent thread, he was part of a local UNIX club where everyone was running 386s and Interactive UNIX (I still have my diskettes and manuals; picked up at Weird Stuff Warehouse on a trip to the Bay Area). > Although I seem to > remember being perfectly happy when things progressed to 33.6K - I couldn't > imagine making use of anything faster, and all the various non-WWW services > did all that I could ever need. Once Supra came out with a sub-$300 19.2K modem, I upgraded the old Goldstar, but it was a long, long time until I went to 33.6K, so long that I think the prices for an external modem were down to around $50. I needed it because they hadn't run cable out to my farm, and the telco routing was so sub-optimal that it was well under the max distance for DSL as the crow flies, but 2x-3x as the cables ran. The analog lines were so long that 56K wasn't even close to an option. As it was, I couldn't connect reliably over 28.8K. That was about 10 years ago, and since then, cable (and cable modems) have penetrated to the edges of town. Much more satisfactory. I don't know that I've ever owned a 56K modem - I made the transition to broadband (back in town) so early that I just kinda skipped that era. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 7-Aug-2008 at 19:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -48.1 F (-44.5 C) Windchill -92.7 F (-69.3 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 28.6 kts Grid 5 Barometer 681.4 mb (10575 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Aug 7 15:13:22 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 14:13:22 -0600 Subject: question aaout ISP's In-Reply-To: <200808071727.m77HRg9g000552@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <489ACBEA.10544.FAAD7A4@cclist.sydex.com> <507520.26074.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com>, <489B194A.4020101@gmail.com>, <200808071727.m77HRg9g000552@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <489B5762.9030709@jetnet.ab.ca> Dennis Boone wrote: > > Inbetwixt the 1200 and 2400 baud periods, does anyone remember the > > Racal-Vadic protocol? ISTR, it was something like 1800 baud, using a > > 3450(?) modem. I had a couple of those back then; just wired them into > > the telco line without a DAA. When you called someone with another > > Racal modem, the difference in speed from 1200 was quite obvious. > > I don't recall an 1800 baud one on dialup. They had four-wire leased > line modems that did 1800. > > Seems like the Vadic 1200 baud dialup ones, which had different tone > sets from 212A, actually ran slightly faster than 1200. > > De > The real sneaky modems are the 1200/300 baud ones. From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Thu Aug 7 15:19:06 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 20:19:06 +0000 Subject: RF08/RS08 emulation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20080807201906.GD19776@usap.gov> On Wed, Aug 06, 2008 at 10:26:08PM -0700, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > From: "Rich Alderson" > >General question for PDP-8 fans: I've seen references to someone having > >created an RF08/RS08 replacement. Does anyone on the list know details > >of such a project? > > I have a project like that. You can find Eagle drawings at > http://www.so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/cadlib.html. > Look for "RF08: RF08 Replacement" in the green scrolling region. > > The idea was to order an 8"x11" panel containing a controller, two > drive pairs, and a light panel. The "drive pairs" are implemented > with pairs of SRAM chips, which taken together form a removable > 512Kw battery backed store. Two such stores provide the full 1Mw > of storage. That sounds like a clever way to keep the costs per unit down. I even have a few larger SRAMs (for a SBC6120 RAM disk board), so if this project ever gets past the design phase, I'm past the hump for the expensive components. > Like many of my projects, it was fun to think about the design, > but I haven't yet made the time to actually build and debug it. One of these days, like when I'm home for more than six months at a shot, I really want to shake down one of my Posibus boxes (i.e., watch it pass the entire suite of paper-tape diagnostics) and hang some interesting hardware off of it. Ever since I got that first PDP-8/L when I was in high-school, I've been trying to get a OS/8-capable configuration. I've gotten as far as an -8/L w/12kW (via a BM08) and PC8L high-speed papertape, but no posibus mass storage. My negibus -8/i has 64kW of DF32, but only 4kW of core (another long-term project is to get that up to 8kW internally). > N.B.: The 74LS151's in the write-protect section need to be real > TTL, and float their inputs high without pull-ups. Of course, if > you don't care about separate write-protect switches for each 32K, > you can just hard wire the inputs to the right values :-). I don't remember seeing too many designs with floating TTL inputs. Why no pullups? What's the advantage? -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 7-Aug-2008 at 20:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -47.0 F (-43.9 C) Windchill -90.1 F (-67.8 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 26.7 kts Grid 9 Barometer 681.3 mb (10579 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Thu Aug 7 15:42:39 2008 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 16:42:39 -0400 Subject: IC collecting In-Reply-To: <1218012081.6545.6.camel@kusanagi> Message-ID: Gordon J. C. Pearce wrote > > On Tue, 2008-08-05 at 11:44 -0400, Barber, Brennan wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > I cam across your posting and wanted to see if you also collected IC's? > > Finding other collectors is a rarity for me so I thought I would shoot > > you and e-mail. I collect clones (russian, eastern block, etc.), Intel > > engineering samples and any IBM cpus. > > I prefer to keep the ICs in the boards ;-) > Seconded. Chip collectors are to computer collectors like a hypothetical "nut and bolt" collector would be to a vintage car collector. Could you imagine: "I don't have room for a model T Ford so I took it apart and made this great display of the nuts and bolts. I threw the rest of the junk away. It was all dirty. Look at my collection. They're sorted by diameter, thread pitch, Phillips/flat head..." From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 7 15:47:47 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 13:47:47 -0700 Subject: COBOL quote in the news In-Reply-To: <489B3CB5.7070806@brouhaha.com> References: <489ABA22.8563.F6561BF@cclist.sydex.com>, <489B3CB5.7070806@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <489AFD03.4498.106A9B7C@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Aug 2008 at 11:19, Eric Smith wrote: > It's not at all hard to find COBOL programmers, and they are NOT all > retired. Offer a decent salary, and you'll get them. What the state is > specifically trying to do, though is to cut everyone's salaries, so how > likely is it that they'll offer a good salary to a COBOL programmer. > > The real story is that it's a bunch of political posturing. Oh, you cynic! I'll come to the defense of the bean-counters by saying that knowing how to write a program in COBOL and being fluent in COBOL are very different things, just as learning to read Russian is one thing and writing like Pushkin is quite another. COBOL is a huge language for its time. I recall that the early releases of COBOL for S/360 were not complete implementations. I have an IBM document somewhere in my files that states that indexed- sequential file access wasn't implemented in the compiler. The compile would accept the statements and check them for syntax, but no code was generated. Instead, one had to call a bunch of assembly- language routines (ENTER LINKAGE) to the work. Add to the problems of California's COBOL is the likelihood that most of this code is probably pretty crufty by now, with all manner of ugly modifications shoehorned in. I also suspect also that the application source code is quite large. Finding enough fluent COBOL programmers who would be willing to tackle the job might well be more than just a lame excuse for doing nothing. ISTR that California got burned a couple of times trying to convert its antiquated DMV applications to something a bit more modern. Does anyone know if California's running this COBOL code under emulation? I remember a customer who was seeking to get rid of his 7080's and run his COBOL on something more modern. The problem was that it wasn't just COBOL code at that point--there were plenty of binary patches in the code, along with large stretches of uncommented 7080 autocoder. The customer ended up buying a S/370 configuration and running it in 7080 emulation mode. Unraveling and rewriting the code looked to be too much of a black hole. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Thu Aug 7 15:50:56 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 20:50:56 +0000 Subject: AT&T 3B1 Unix PC In-Reply-To: <489B3DB1.6010408@brouhaha.com> References: <080420080615.7078.48969E7C000414EE00001BA622243322829B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> <489B28F7.5010404@tdh.com> <489B3DB1.6010408@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20080807205056.GE19776@usap.gov> On Thu, Aug 07, 2008 at 11:23:45AM -0700, Eric Smith wrote: > Both models are a "Unix PC". > > The original model is the 7300, and uses a half-height drive. Standard > drives were 10MB or 20MB. > > The newer model is the 3B1, and has a "hump" to accommodate a > full-height drive, and a higher-rated power supply. Standard drives > were 40MB or 67MB. Did anyone ever come out with a SCSI interface for these, even a home-brew one? Back in the day, I really, really wanted one, but by the time I could afford it, the max disk size was really cramped. I think my Amiga at the time had somewhere around 200-450MB, by comparison. I know lots of guys who were working at the local Bell Labs at the time that bought these through the employee discount plan. These were the same guys that later migrated to 386s w/Interactive UNIX then to low-end SPARC boxes, etc. One of the things I miss from those days is the monthly UNIX meetings we used to have - I guess it's now so common that we don't have to meet in secret to swap arcane lore anymore ;-) -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 7-Aug-2008 at 20:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -47.2 F (-44.0 C) Windchill -90.7 F (-68.2 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 27.3 kts Grid 8 Barometer 681.6 mb (10568 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Thu Aug 7 15:51:58 2008 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 16:51:58 -0400 Subject: Argo Electronics in NYC to close In-Reply-To: <21614.69849.qm@web56203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Christian Liendo wrote: > > I just saw a commercial on NY1 stating that Argo Electronics is > closing. They were the last Electronic Surplus stores on Canal > St. I never saw a commercial for Argo. > > The address > 393 Canal St > New York, NY 10013-1691 > Phone: (212) 226-4945 > As it happens, I'm in Rutherford, NJ visiting my Dad. Whenever I visit, we go into town to Lombardi's for pizza (planned for tomorrow, early afternoon this visit). Looking at Google maps, it seems it might be a reasonable walk between the two, but NY often tricks me. Is it a reasonable walk... looks like about half a mile on the map. From vrs at msn.com Thu Aug 7 15:54:55 2008 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 13:54:55 -0700 Subject: RF08/RS08 emulation References: Message-ID: From: "Rich Alderson" Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 11:45 AM > From: Vincent Slyngstad > Sent: Wednesday, August 06, 2008 10:26 PM > >> I have a project like that. You can find Eagle drawings at >> http://www.so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/cadlib.html. >> Look for "RF08: RF08 Replacement" in the green scrolling region. > > Thanks, Vince! That's the kind of thing I was looking for! Feel free to mail me offlist if you decide to pursue a project like this. I'd love to hear how it goes! Vince From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Aug 7 16:05:40 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 14:05:40 -0700 Subject: AT&T 3B1 Unix PC In-Reply-To: <20080807205056.GE19776@usap.gov> References: <080420080615.7078.48969E7C000414EE00001BA622243322829B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> <489B28F7.5010404@tdh.com> <489B3DB1.6010408@brouhaha.com> <20080807205056.GE19776@usap.gov> Message-ID: <489B63A4.7030709@brouhaha.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > Did anyone ever come out with a SCSI interface for these, even a home-brew > one? I wire-wrapped one, using a 5380 chip. It wouldn't fit in the 3B1, so I had to put it in the expansion box. I wrote a driver to test the hardware, which had ioctl() calls to read and write registers of the 5380. I didn't get a real block driver going, though. The 99-pin connectors for the bus are really hard to find; I wonder whether AT&T or Convergent were trying to make it difficult for third-parties to build peripherals. Possibly one could cut down a 120-pin connector. Maybe if the 3 pins at one end aren't necessary, one could butcher a 96-pin connector. Eric From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 7 15:17:26 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 21:17:26 +0100 (BST) Subject: Computer collectors are no longer the dweebiest people in the In-Reply-To: <489A1AC2.60902@gmail.com> from "Sridhar Ayengar" at Aug 6, 8 05:42:26 pm Message-ID: > > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > On Wednesday 06 August 2008 15:56, Jim Battle wrote: > > (Snip) > >>> Am I the only 'collector' who doesn't much care about the value of the > >>> items hi his colelction? I collect things becuase I'm interested in them, > >>> I find them beautiful (in a somewhat odd way, I can appreciate the good > >>> design in a PDP11 or HP98x0 CPU, for example). I don't collect in the > >>> hope that I'll be able to sell them later for more money. > >> Tony, I think you are alone in that. The rest of us are getting > >> stinking rich stockpiling boring old electronics doo-dads. I just wish > >> my hands didn't get so dusty touching the stuff, as it makes my cash dirty. > > > > Wow, I definitely must be missing something here... :-) > > Yeah, it's called irony. 8-) Big iron-y? (Sorry, couldn't resist) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 7 15:20:09 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 21:20:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: IC collecting In-Reply-To: <1218012081.6545.6.camel@kusanagi> from "Gordon J. C. Pearce" at Aug 6, 8 09:41:21 am Message-ID: > > On Tue, 2008-08-05 at 11:44 -0400, Barber, Brennan wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > I cam across your posting and wanted to see if you also collected IC's? > > Finding other collectors is a rarity for me so I thought I would shoot > > you and e-mail. I collect clones (russian, eastern block, etc.), Intel > > engineering samples and any IBM cpus. > > I prefer to keep the ICs in the boards ;-) I do collect (well, accumulate) ICs, but I intend to use them as spares for machines that I own/use. I know that one day I will need that 8008 to fix a PDP11/34 front panel, or whatever. But I personally have no desire to have a 'stamp collection' of supposedly rare ICs sitting in conductive foam. [...] > I like having butterflies in my garden, too. Butterflies flying around, > not dead in little boxes. That's a good way of putting it. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 7 15:33:27 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 21:33:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: Computer collectors are no longer the dweebiest people in the In-Reply-To: <00ae01c8f813$5c96e880$6601a8c0@game> from "Teo Zenios" at Aug 6, 8 06:25:41 pm Message-ID: > > Am I the only 'collector' who doesn't much care about the value of the > > items hi his colelction? I collect things becuase I'm interested in them, > > I find them beautiful (in a somewhat odd way, I can appreciate the good > > design in a PDP11 or HP98x0 CPU, for example). I don't collect in the > > hope that I'll be able to sell them later for more money. > I hope that my collection is worth enough when I die that it offsets the > cost of disposal of the CRTs I am keeping. Would hate to die and leave > somebody with a bill for cleanup. I'd much rather that all the CRTs I own. amd the equipment that contains them, carries on being used and enjoyed after I pass away. > It is more fun to collect things that are not worth that much. If you had a > $250K guitar would you leave it in your room and play it all the time or > would it end up in some expensive display case hidden from view incase > somebody wanted to steal it? How many people with original Apple I's would > run them very often if at all? Indeed. Actually, even if I have machines that are claimed to be valuable, I'd much rather enjoy them even if I risk lowering the value by so doing. I have, for example, dismantled my HP9100B to show others how it all fits together, the slight risk of damaging the machine seems worth it. An Apple 1 is not a machine I particularly desire, though. Sure if I was given one I'd accept it and probably investigate it. But there are plenty of more interesting machines _to me_ that I don't yet have. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 7 15:49:31 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 21:49:31 +0100 (BST) Subject: Collecting philosophy (Was: Computer collectors are no longer the In-Reply-To: from "Rick Bensene" at Aug 6, 8 10:22:45 pm Message-ID: > are worth. I do what I do because I have a great passion for this > particular part of our technological history, and there is such a > wonderful diversity of methods that various companies and engineers > invented to do the same basic functions, and each has its own beauty and > individuality, as well as (in some cases) places in history that are > significant. I've always felt that good hardware design is an art form. A somewhat obscure art form, only really appreciable by those who can read a schematic, understand a state machine, and so on, but an art form none-the-less. And seeign the itneral beauty of some of these machines is very enjoyable for me. > > I state in the website that none of the stuff is for sale. It isn't. > When I die, it'll be taken care of properly. None of my collection is for sale either. When I snuff it, another UK collector gets everything (not just the machines), and I believe he will know what to do with every item. > That's all that matters to me. This stuff isn't an investment, except > in the time that I spend pondering the designs and troubleshooting > machines that there are no schematics for, or figuring out how to I know that feelign all too well. Spending many a long night tracing conenctions to produce real service docmentation for a machine where either there is no servie manaul, or just a boardswapper guide. And then spending even more long nights finding the fualt. But then, when it finally all works, it's a great feeling that amply justifies the effort I put it (although actually I do enjoy (a) figuring out how the machine works and uncovering the beauty I mentioned earlier) and (b) solving the puzzle as to why it doesn't work any more). [...] > Tinkering around with this stuff makes me happy. Digging through old > documents and finding shreds of historical significance that tie > together is the most wonderful kind of detective work. Communicating > with folks who "were there", like Tom Osborn(HP 9100/9800), Allen > Frankel (son of Stanley Frankel, developer of the SCM 240SR, and the > design of the Diehl > Combitron, and some early small computers, as well as being a nuclear > physicist involved in the Manhattan Project), Harold Koplow (Microcode > designer of Wang's 700-Series machines and others, including the 2200 > BASIC computer, and word-processing systems), and many others is such a > great privilege. Sharing what I learn is pure joy. I#ve never been much of a 'people person' and wouldn't have a clue as to how to track down people like this, or how to approach them if I did find them. No matter. I can enjoy discovering things from the actual hardware in front of me. > The value is in those things, not dollars. I agree completely with > Tony's philosophy. Others may feel differently about these kinds of > things, and that's their right, and I'll fight to the death to defend > their right to feel that way, as well as for the right for Tony and > myself think the way we do. Of course. On the other hand, I can't help thinking of something written in one of Eric Smith's (not _our_ Eric Smith AFAIK) books on clock repair. He talks about the 'Horological Ham' -- basically an amateur clock enthusiast who appreciates the beauty in that that type of machine. And he makes a comment that what upsets the horological ham is not low-value clocks, or common clocks, or anything like that, but clocks that are never given the chance to work any more. Either for fear of damaging them, or because they have some (probably simple) fault. I will admit I feel the same way about classic computers. I do like to see them in operation. I do try to repari all those in my collection (of course there are many I've not got round to yet). I am not saying you're wrong if you don't feel the same way, of course. You have the right to collect what you like, how you like. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 7 15:48:42 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 21:48:42 +0100 (BST) Subject: Collecting philosophy (Was: Computer collectors are no longer the In-Reply-To: from "Rick Bensene" at Aug 6, 8 10:22:45 pm Message-ID: > > > > Tony Duell wrote: > > Am I the only 'collector' who doesn't much care about the value of the > > > items hi his colelction? I collect things becuase I'm interested in > them, > > I find them beautiful (in a somewhat odd way, I can appreciate the > good > > design in a PDP11 or HP98x0 CPU, for example). I don't collect in the > > hope that I'll be able to sell them later for more money. > > No, Tony, at least there is someone else who has the same appreciation > (not in terms of monetary value doing such), but in the glory of design > and implementation. I don't care about the value of the calculators in > the Old Calculator Museum. Frankly, I really could care less what they > are worth. I do what I do because I have a great passion for this > particular part of our technological history, and there is such a > wonderful diversity of methods that various companies and engineers > invented to do the same basic functions, and each has its own beauty and > individuality, as well as (in some cases) places in history that are > significant. > > I state in the website that none of the stuff is for sale. It isn't. > When I die, it'll be taken care of properly. > That's all that matters to me. This stuff isn't an investment, except > in the time that I spend pondering the designs and troubleshooting > machines that there are no schematics for, or figuring out how to > program a programmable calculator that there's no documentation known to > exist in terms of its instruction set, as well as documenting what > tidbits I can learn on the website for others to hopefully get some > enjoyment and education from. > > Tinkering around with this stuff makes me happy. Digging through old > documents and finding shreds of historical significance that tie > together is the most wonderful kind of detective work. Communicating > with folks who "were there", like Tom Osborn(HP 9100/9800), Allen > Frankel (son of Stanley Frankel, developer of the SCM 240SR, and the > design of the Diehl > Combitron, and some early small computers, as well as being a nuclear > physicist involved in the Manhattan Project), Harold Koplow (Microcode > designer of Wang's 700-Series machines and others, including the 2200 > BASIC computer, and word-processing systems), and many others is such a > great privilege. Sharing what I learn is pure joy. > > The value is in those things, not dollars. I agree completely with > Tony's philosophy. Others may feel differently about these kinds of > things, and that's their right, and I'll fight to the death to defend > their right to feel that way, as well as for the right for Tony and > myself think the way we do. > > Rick Bensene > The Old Calculator Museum > http://oldcalculatormuseum.com > > From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Aug 7 16:20:38 2008 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 14:20:38 -0700 Subject: segmented memory models In-Reply-To: <489AF08F.32661.1039F928@cclist.sydex.com> References: <489620FF.21030.2852BB4@cclist.sydex.com> <489AF08F.32661.1039F928@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 7, 2008 at 12:54 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > ISTR Windows 3.0 "standard mode" on a 386 could be considerably > faster than using the 386 "enhanced" mode--if you had enough memory > installed. It was for Windows apps, but the penalty was a single non-multitasked DOS box. In "enhanced mode" windows apps were living in a shared v86 machine, rather than under 286 protected mode. It took a lot of fiddling with page tables to keep them happy without really enforcing a 640K shared address space. Pardon me, I'm having flashbacks about locking and unlocking memory handles. Eric From vrs at msn.com Thu Aug 7 16:27:19 2008 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 14:27:19 -0700 Subject: RF08/RS08 emulation References: <20080807201906.GD19776@usap.gov> Message-ID: From: "Ethan Dicks" > Ever since I got that first PDP-8/L when I was in high-school, I've > been trying to get a OS/8-capable configuration. I've gotten as > far as an -8/L w/12kW (via a BM08) and PC8L high-speed papertape, > but no posibus mass storage. My negibus -8/i has 64kW of DF32, > but only 4kW of core (another long-term project is to get that up > to 8kW internally). There are some bus converter projects there too, if those would be of any help. > On Wed, Aug 06, 2008 at 10:26:08PM -0700, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: >> N.B.: The 74LS151's in the write-protect section need to be real >> TTL, and float their inputs high without pull-ups. Of course, if >> you don't care about separate write-protect switches for each 32K, >> you can just hard wire the inputs to the right values :-). > > I don't remember seeing too many designs with floating TTL inputs. > Why no pullups? What's the advantage? No particular reason, but the board's pretty crowded trying to get it all to fit in 8"x11". I'd probably use SIL resistor packs and shift down the six DIPs below the switches. (I'm not sure there'd be enough void left to route the thing with 10mil design rules.) There's some other "fast and loose" stuff in there too -- S240 as bus drivers, multiple LS loads on the bus (still should be less than a 74xx load), and (importantly) no provision to continue the bus, so that it must be placed last. There's also no equivalent for the G717 terminator card, so it may need to be a fairly short bus! Vince From keithvz at verizon.net Thu Aug 7 16:30:09 2008 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 17:30:09 -0400 Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: <20080807200317.GB19776@usap.gov> References: <507520.26074.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4899F65F.8000504@gmail.com> <4899FB11.2020205@gmail.com> <489B194A.4020101@gmail.com> <20080807200317.GB19776@usap.gov> Message-ID: <489B6961.6030402@verizon.net> > On Thu, Aug 07, 2008 at 10:48:26AM -0500, Jules Richardson wrote: >> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>> but dial-up sucks. >> Surely it fits better with vintage computer collecting? I'm surprised that >> any of us are on broadband... ;) >> >> Thankfully I missed the 300 baud (and earlier) era > > I didn't - my first modem experiences were with acoustic couplers and > DECwriters in the educational environment (we didn't have one at my > school, but I had access to one at the university down the block from > where I grew up), and with a VIC Modem c. 1982. I got on CompuServe > (until my parents balked at the mounting costs), and local BBSes. I didn't miss the 300 baud era. I remember my first modem was a "direct connect" 300bps model sold by radio shack. It had an "answer or originate" switch, along with a big red button that said "Connect." Push the button, carrier was activated. No Hayes command set, no ATDT, no autodialing, nothing. You needed to dial manually, listen for carrier, push the button, and hang up. I used a 4th-hand pulse phone, because that's all my parents had to give me. It connected to my TRS-80 Color Computer II, which had 16k of ram. The TRS80 only had 32 columns, where the Commodore-64 and PC's had 40 at the time. I dealt with half-wrapped lines for years. So I dialed upwards of 100 BBS's in Pittsburgh, all thanks to unlimited metro calling, the package Bell Atlantic offered at the time. I knew every exchange in the 412 area code, where it was located, and whether I could call it for "free." This was early 80's. Compuserve offered trial accounts which you could get via magazines, from other BBS's, etc. I remember the userid's were always 6 (maybe 7?) digits, and the default passwords were two words separated by a symbol. Like, "wolf-rhyme" or "phone!warsaw" etc. 300 baud was actually fast enough for the majority of what I did for at least a couple years. 1200 baud was state of the art -- but many people still connected at 300 baud. When I later upgraded to an Amiga 500, I also got a 2400 baud modem which was lightning by comparison. But then the files got bigger.... I later got a 14.4/16.8k (dual standard, Courier and HST, anyone remember these?) which was the BOMB --- no one had anything faster in the early 90's. And then came K56flex and x2, competing standards........ I am a product of the 80's -- got interested in computers and modems right when WarGames came out, along with Whiz Kids, if anyone knows that show. You'll never guess what I did during my teenage(and later) years? :) Keith From trag at io.com Thu Aug 7 16:33:27 2008 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 16:33:27 -0500 (CDT) Subject: COBOL quote in the news In-Reply-To: <200808072125.m77LP2La045818@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200808072125.m77LP2La045818@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <8955.209.163.133.242.1218144807.squirrel@webmail.io.com> > Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 11:19:33 -0700 > From: Eric Smith > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> "COBOL programmers are hard to come by these days," said Fred Forrer, >> the Sacramento-based CEO of MGT of America, a public-sector >> consulting firm. "It's certainly not a language that is taught. >> Oftentimes, you have to rely on retired annuitants to come back and >> help maintain the system until you're able to find a replacement." > > It's not at all hard to find COBOL programmers, and they are NOT all > retired. Offer a decent salary, and you'll get them. What the state is > specifically trying to do, though is to cut everyone's salaries, so how > likely is it that they'll offer a good salary to a COBOL programmer. > > The real story is that it's a bunch of political posturing. When anyone with a tech company says "We can't find anyone to do X" what they really mean is "We can't find any new graduates to do X" because heaven forbid they should hire an older (like over 35) worker. There are plenty of older tech experienced folks working at hardware stores, who would jump at an entry level tech salary, but for some reason, human resource drones in tech companies are universally convinced that they would be too expensive or otherwise a poor choice. Sigh. It's the same story as a few months back when B. Gates went before congress and asked for more H1Bs claiming he couldn't find any programmers. Jeff Walther From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Thu Aug 7 16:39:04 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 21:39:04 +0000 Subject: AT&T 3B1 Unix PC In-Reply-To: <489B63A4.7030709@brouhaha.com> References: <080420080615.7078.48969E7C000414EE00001BA622243322829B0A02D29B9B0EBF9B0809079D99D309@att.net> <489B28F7.5010404@tdh.com> <489B3DB1.6010408@brouhaha.com> <20080807205056.GE19776@usap.gov> <489B63A4.7030709@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20080807213904.GA5643@usap.gov> On Thu, Aug 07, 2008 at 02:05:40PM -0700, Eric Smith wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > >Did anyone ever come out with a SCSI interface for these, even a home-brew > >one? > > I wire-wrapped one, using a 5380 chip. It wouldn't fit in the 3B1, so I > had to put it in the expansion box. I wrote a driver to test the > hardware, which had ioctl() calls to read and write registers of the > 5380. I didn't get a real block driver going, though. That's certainly encouraging. I know about the 5380 from a variety of places - including the MacPlus and some early (pre-33C93) Amiga SCSI cards. > The 99-pin connectors for the bus are really hard to find; I wonder > whether AT&T or Convergent were trying to make it difficult for > third-parties to build peripherals. Possibly one could cut down a > 120-pin connector. Maybe if the 3 pins at one end aren't necessary, one > could butcher a 96-pin connector. Hmm... I didn't know the 3B1 had an unusual expansion connector. That complicates things. Since I don't know about the internals of the box, this might or might not be feasible, but there were several SCSI and IDE interfaces for the Amiga (and Atari ST?) that plugged right into a 64-pin CPU socket. The two issues I see would be a) physical clearance, and b) fitting into a blank space in the memory map. It might not be feasible to retro-fit a commerical Amiga interface into an 3B1 for either or both of those reasons, but perhaps that would be a viable approach for a dedicated 3B1 interface. Even though 8-bit SCSI and PATA drives are no longer the dominant drive forms, they are a step or two up the ladder from MFM - easier to find, smaller, etc... there never was a 3.5" hard disk that was taller than an ST-225, so there'd be no problem fitting one into even a 7300. If I had a UNIX PC, I might pursue this, but it was at least interesting to learn about the odd connector and what sorts of issues have to be gotten around. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 7-Aug-2008 at 21:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -47.4 F (-44.1 C) Windchill -86.9 F (-66.1 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 21.0 kts Grid 11 Barometer 682.0 mb (10553 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Aug 7 16:39:59 2008 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 14:39:59 -0700 Subject: question aaout ISP's In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A922163@sbs.jdfogg.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A922163@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: > Don't use standard ports. My provider (Comcast) blocks port 25 (mail) > inbound and outbound, and doesn't allow relaying through its mail > servers. Instead I use port 2525 and an external mail relay service. Where is this? In my area comcast blocks 25 inbound, but doesn't seem to mind outgoing SMTP. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Aug 7 16:41:45 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 14:41:45 -0700 Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: <489B6961.6030402@verizon.net> References: <507520.26074.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4899F65F.8000504@gmail.com> <4899FB11.2020205@gmail.com> <489B194A.4020101@gmail.com> <20080807200317.GB19776@usap.gov> <489B6961.6030402@verizon.net> Message-ID: <489B6C19.9040807@brouhaha.com> Keith M wrote: > I didn't miss the 300 baud era. I remember my first modem was a "direct > connect" 300bps model sold by radio shack. It had an "answer or 300 baud? Luxury! We *dreamed* of having 300 baud. We used Model 33 Teletypes at 110 baud, and we were darned lucky to have those. One guy I knew only had a Model 28 Teletype at 45.5 baud. On the other hand, the Model 28 was *much* more reliable than a 33. And we had to walk to school. Uphill. Both ways. From sellam at vintagetech.com Thu Aug 7 16:43:46 2008 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 14:43:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Computer collectors are no longer the dweebiest people in the Message-ID: Tony blathered: > I don't collect in the hope that I'll be able to sell them later for > more money. No, Tony, I believe you are entirely unique in this regard as everyone else subscribed here is just in it for the money. Weirdo. -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From spc at conman.org Thu Aug 7 16:50:08 2008 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 17:50:08 -0400 Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: <489B6961.6030402@verizon.net> References: <507520.26074.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4899F65F.8000504@gmail.com> <4899FB11.2020205@gmail.com> <489B194A.4020101@gmail.com> <20080807200317.GB19776@usap.gov> <489B6961.6030402@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20080807215008.GA13516@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Keith M once stated: > >On Thu, Aug 07, 2008 at 10:48:26AM -0500, Jules Richardson wrote: > >>Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > >>>but dial-up sucks. > >>Surely it fits better with vintage computer collecting? I'm surprised > >>that any of us are on broadband... ;) > >> > >>Thankfully I missed the 300 baud (and earlier) era > > > >I didn't - my first modem experiences were with acoustic couplers and > >DECwriters in the educational environment (we didn't have one at my > >school, but I had access to one at the university down the block from > >where I grew up), and with a VIC Modem c. 1982. I got on CompuServe > >(until my parents balked at the mounting costs), and local BBSes. > > I didn't miss the 300 baud era. I remember my first modem was a "direct > connect" 300bps model sold by radio shack. It had an "answer or > originate" switch, along with a big red button that said "Connect." > Push the button, carrier was activated. No Hayes command set, no ATDT, > no autodialing, nothing. You needed to dial manually, listen for > carrier, push the button, and hang up. I used a 4th-hand pulse phone, > because that's all my parents had to give me. I started out at 300bps too. I didn't have a modem at home, but someone had donated an Atari 600XL (with diskdrive and modem) to my high school, and I used that nearly every day to call BBSes with. It was only after I graduated (1987) that I got a 300bps modem of my own (the internal one for the IBM PCjr). I remember my friend upgrading his BBS to 1200 and above, so to call his BBS, I had to dial into my college, and then use one of the outgoing 1200 modems to call him. Luckily, everything was local. I did upgrade to 1200 and found that I could comfortably read at that rate (300 was a tad too slow for my tastes). 2400 was a bit too fast. Around 1994 or 95, another friend of mine started a web design/web hosting company. We had a colocated server at a local ISP, and our office (his dining room) was connected via a 28.8k modem. Fun times indeed. Let's see, over the years, I've done 300, 1200, 2400, 14.4k, 28.8k, ISDN (before HellSouth changed the pricing structure, and at the time I had 32 static IP addresses---woo hoo!), DSL and cable. My boss and I (still the same) even talked about a wireless shot to the office (20 miles south of where we live) but nothing ever came of it. Pitty. -spc (And for the most part, have never had to pay for Internet access--- perk for working in the industry) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Aug 7 16:52:37 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 15:52:37 -0600 Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: <489B6C19.9040807@brouhaha.com> References: <507520.26074.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4899F65F.8000504@gmail.com> <4899FB11.2020205@gmail.com> <489B194A.4020101@gmail.com> <20080807200317.GB19776@usap.gov> <489B6961.6030402@verizon.net> <489B6C19.9040807@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <489B6EA5.205@jetnet.ab.ca> Eric Smith wrote: > Keith M wrote: >> I didn't miss the 300 baud era. I remember my first modem was a >> "direct connect" 300bps model sold by radio shack. It had an "answer or > > 300 baud? Luxury! We *dreamed* of having 300 baud. We used Model 33 > Teletypes at 110 baud, and we were darned lucky to have those. One > guy I knew only had a Model 28 Teletype at 45.5 baud. On the other > hand, the Model 28 was *much* more reliable than a 33. > > And we had to walk to school. Uphill. Both ways. > And how many miles was it school again? Did the 28 TTY have a paper tape reader/punch like 33? From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Thu Aug 7 16:51:42 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 21:51:42 +0000 Subject: RF08/RS08 emulation In-Reply-To: References: <20080807201906.GD19776@usap.gov> Message-ID: <20080807215142.GB5643@usap.gov> On Thu, Aug 07, 2008 at 02:27:19PM -0700, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > From: "Ethan Dicks" > >Ever since I got that first PDP-8/L when I was in high-school, I've > >been trying to get a OS/8-capable configuration. I've gotten as > >far as an -8/L w/12kW (via a BM08) and PC8L high-speed papertape, > >but no posibus mass storage. My negibus -8/i has 64kW of DF32, > >but only 4kW of core (another long-term project is to get that up > >to 8kW internally). > > There are some bus converter projects there too, if those would be > of any help. Sure, if it comes to that. The -8/i is out of the picture until I get enough memory on it anyway. I have enough M-series logic to stuff the backplane with the memory extension logic (somewhere, I even have an M720), and I think I have enough spare G-series logic from an -8/L that came to me as a crate of parts (broken chassis, no front-panel, a few broken backplane pins, no core...), or nearly enough to implement 8kW, but 32kW sure would be nice for doing any "real" work (like playing Adventure ;-) My main -8/L is in closer shape than anything, though if I fix whatever is wrong with my -8/e, I do have a posibus adapter for that, and it might be a more reliable testbed for new devices, especially since I can easily throw an RX8E in there (borrowed from a PDP-8/a-based WPS box in the same room). I suppose I could just use the -8/a and the posibus adapter, but that, too, has some odd problem (with the KM8A, IIRC). Sigh... all of this stuff worked once, but it's been three moves and a lot of years, and I haven't been able to spend enough time in front of the machines to give them the attention they deserve. > No particular reason, but the board's pretty crowded trying to get > it all to fit in 8"x11". I'd probably use SIL resistor packs and > shift down the six DIPs below the switches. (I'm not sure there'd > be enough void left to route the thing with 10mil design rules.) Sounds crowded. > There's some other "fast and loose" stuff in there too -- S240 as > bus drivers, multiple LS loads on the bus (still should be less > than a 74xx load), and (importantly) no provision to continue the > bus, so that it must be placed last. There's also no equivalent > for the G717 terminator card, so it may need to be a fairly short > bus! Well... while that's not optimal, it's workable. Given the dearth of OEM posibus equipment these days (I have none and have never seen any except on the web), it's not like many people are going to be sticking this on a heavily loaded bus. The RF08 is large enough to do interesting things with, leaving only removable media to get things on and off the system - paper tape is certainly one way, but floppies are more convenient... in my particular case, I suppose the largest configuration I'd attempt would be a modern solid-state RF08 and that RX8 you/we started and haven't gotten back to. It's been so long that I can't remember if the RX8 can be in the middle of the posibus or not. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 7-Aug-2008 at 21:30 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -47.4 F (-44.1 C) Windchill -86.9 F (-66.1 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 21.0 kts Grid 11 Barometer 682.0 mb (10553 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 7 16:55:50 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 14:55:50 -0700 Subject: segmented memory models In-Reply-To: References: , <489AF08F.32661.1039F928@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <489B0CF6.2626.10A8EB9A@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Aug 2008 at 14:20, Eric J Korpela wrote: > Pardon me, I'm having flashbacks about locking and unlocking memory > handles. ...and all of the little undocumented "tricks" that later made life miserable? Yeah, good times! Cheers, Chuck From jim at photojim.ca Thu Aug 7 16:58:51 2008 From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 15:58:51 -0600 Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) References: <507520.26074.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com><4899F65F.8000504@gmail.com><4899FB11.2020205@gmail.com> <489B194A.4020101@gmail.com><20080807200317.GB19776@usap.gov> <489B6961.6030402@verizon.net> Message-ID: <02cd01c8f8d8$c6f37ed0$1802a8c0@JIMM> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Keith M" To: ; "Discussion at olddell.com :On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 3:30 PM Subject: Re: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) > I later got a 14.4/16.8k (dual standard, Courier and HST, anyone remember > these?) which was the BOMB --- no one had anything faster in the early > 90's. The Couriers were the modems to drool over in the BBS days. When modem prices came down a few years ago, I picked myself up a Courier V.Everything modem (which does 16,800 bps HST and 56K v.90, along with all the rates below them). It is still the best modem ever produced (and one of the largest :) ). Jim From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Thu Aug 7 17:02:43 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 22:02:43 +0000 Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: <489B6961.6030402@verizon.net> References: <507520.26074.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4899F65F.8000504@gmail.com> <4899FB11.2020205@gmail.com> <489B194A.4020101@gmail.com> <20080807200317.GB19776@usap.gov> <489B6961.6030402@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20080807220243.GC5643@usap.gov> On Thu, Aug 07, 2008 at 05:30:09PM -0400, Keith M wrote: > I didn't miss the 300 baud era. I remember my first modem was a "direct > connect" 300bps model sold by radio shack. It had an "answer or > originate" switch, along with a big red button that said "Connect." > Push the button, carrier was activated. No Hayes command set, no ATDT, > no autodialing, nothing. You needed to dial manually, listen for > carrier, push the button, and hang up. I used a 4th-hand pulse phone, > because that's all my parents had to give me. That sounds fancier than the VIC Modem... that one didn't even connect to the wall directly - you picked up a regular phone, dial or touch- tone, dialled your number, waited for carrier, and, this is the tricky part, before the far end disconnected, you had to detach the coiled handset cord from the receiver and plug it into the modem. I probably had about an 80%-90% success rate without having to dial again. It made the modem cheap, but a bit fiddly to use. If phones had been cheaper then, it might have made sense to scrap one out and make a simple switch-box, but I never had the parts on hand to try it. > It connected to my TRS-80 Color Computer II, which had 16k of ram. The > TRS80 only had 32 columns, where the Commodore-64 and PC's had 40 at the > time. I dealt with half-wrapped lines for years. Ow... 40 col was bad enough... I can't imagine 32. I think that would have screwed up lots of the message boards and online games I used to use in those days. > So I dialed upwards of 100 BBS's in Pittsburgh, all thanks to unlimited > metro calling, the package Bell Atlantic offered at the time. I knew > every exchange in the 412 area code, where it was located, and whether I > could call it for "free." > > This was early 80's. Compuserve offered trial accounts which you could > get via magazines, from other BBS's, etc. I remember the userid's were > always 6 (maybe 7?) digits, and the default passwords were two words > separated by a symbol. Like, "wolf-rhyme" or "phone!warsaw" etc. Right... I remember my first password... section%angry. I don't happen to remember my PPN, but it's on the address label on one of my old CIS magazines. I'm pretty sure that PPN was purged long before I worked there in 2001-2002. > I am a product of the 80's -- got interested in computers and modems > right when WarGames came out, along with Whiz Kids, if anyone knows that > show. You'll never guess what I did during my teenage(and later) years? :) Heh... I pretty much kept my nose clean back in those days, but I had older friends who were quite a bit more reckless. I don't know anyone that ever built a blue-box, but some of the kids were big into wardialling. One story from those days - I wasn't there to verify that it actually happened, but it sounds plausible - was that one kid had use of the family station wagon when he learned to drive - he piled an Apple II in the back, with monitor and all, and parked behind a K-Mart by the garden center, because they had two important resources near each other... a payphone and an outdoor 110V outlet... he parked as close to the phone as he could, plugged the computer in and used an acoustic coupler to do his wardialling from the tailgate. He was ready to unplug and go if the authorities came sniffing around, but I don't think he ever got noticed. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 7-Aug-2008 at 21:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -48.1 F (-44.5 C) Windchill -91.5 F (-68.6 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 26.5 kts Grid 13 Barometer 682.0 mb (10553 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Aug 7 17:05:23 2008 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 22:05:23 +0000 (GMT) Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: <489B6961.6030402@verizon.net> Message-ID: <835656.32486.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Yeah, I know of Whiz Kids. Only seen part of the first episode as I haven't had time to watch the others yet. About 9 episodes have been uploaded onto YouTube.com with each episode split into several parts. War Games is a great film, and I actually caught the last 30 minutes of The Computer Wore Tennis Shoes the other week. The bit with Kurt Russell doing his part in the quiz at the end is hilarious :) As for dial-up, I'm still using it with my 56K (?) laptop modem :)? The European Dreamcast I used on dial-up before that had a 33K (?) one, whilst the US and Japanese machines had 56K ones, grrr. I did use my Gamecube on dial-up too, but I have no idea what speeds it used. Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Keith M wrote: I am a product of the 80's -- got interested in computers and modems right when WarGames came out, along with Whiz Kids, if anyone knows that show. You'll never guess what I did during my teenage(and later) years? :) Keith From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Thu Aug 7 17:08:22 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 22:08:22 +0000 Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: <489B6C19.9040807@brouhaha.com> References: <507520.26074.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4899F65F.8000504@gmail.com> <4899FB11.2020205@gmail.com> <489B194A.4020101@gmail.com> <20080807200317.GB19776@usap.gov> <489B6961.6030402@verizon.net> <489B6C19.9040807@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20080807220822.GD5643@usap.gov> On Thu, Aug 07, 2008 at 02:41:45PM -0700, Eric Smith wrote: > Keith M wrote: > >I didn't miss the 300 baud era. I remember my first modem was a "direct > >connect" 300bps model sold by radio shack. It had an "answer or > > 300 baud? Luxury! We *dreamed* of having 300 baud. We used Model 33 > Teletypes at 110 baud, and we were darned lucky to have those. One guy > I knew only had a Model 28 Teletype at 45.5 baud. On the other hand, > the Model 28 was *much* more reliable than a 33. Fortunately, I suppose, I missed _that_ era. I have fiddled with real TTYs, but mostly as PDP-8 peripherals, not as a primary dialup experience. I did pick up an ASR-33 w/110 baud "data set" in the pedestal for $35 at Dayton after everyone had moved to 300/1200 baud. I had hoped to use it with my first PDP-8/L, but never figured out how to divorce the TTY part from the modem (I could probably do it now). Unfortunately, in my youthful exhuberance, I removed the touch-tone pad, so now it sits, unable to call anyone (though I think I later tested that I could call _it_ and print messages on it, then send EOT to turn it back off). Yet another of those long-term projects is to put the touch-tone pad back in and get it working. The follow-on would be to build and install a reader-run relay circuit and get it working as a DEC console TTY, but since I _have_ one of those (that _is_ working), that aspect of the restoration isn't as pressing. > And we had to walk to school. Uphill. Both ways. Amen. (oh... and in Ohio, we added "in the snow"...) -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 7-Aug-2008 at 22:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -48.1 F (-44.5 C) Windchill -90.1 F (-67.8 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 24.2 kts Grid 9 Barometer 682.0 mb (10553 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Aug 7 17:28:19 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 17:28:19 -0500 Subject: Where to find memory ICs? In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90602131138r4ff57282q20bfcde5703d8768@mail.gmail.com> References: <43F0294F.3030705@oldskool.org> <1e1fc3e90602131138r4ff57282q20bfcde5703d8768@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <489B7703.7050009@oldskool.org> Glen Slick wrote: >> I just want a few tubes of these to populate the board, I'm not looking >> for a box of 'em :-) Any pointers? > > www.unicornelectronics.com > 511000-100 $1.89 quanity 25-99 I want to use these to populate an Above Board from 2MB to 8MB, and that would require 6*9*1.89 = $102.06 for just 6MB of RAM. Does anyone know of a cheaper way to get DRAM? $100 just so I can add 6MB of RAM to a card doesn't seem right... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 7 17:27:20 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 15:27:20 -0700 Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: <02cd01c8f8d8$c6f37ed0$1802a8c0@JIMM> References: <507520.26074.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com>, <02cd01c8f8d8$c6f37ed0$1802a8c0@JIMM> Message-ID: <489B1458.10572.10C5C113@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Aug 2008 at 15:58, Jim MacKenzie wrote: > The Couriers were the modems to drool over in the BBS days. When modem > prices came down a few years ago, I picked myself up a Courier V.Everything > modem (which does 16,800 bps HST and 56K v.90, along with all the rates > below them). It is still the best modem ever produced (and one of the > largest :) ). I have three different vintages from the original Courier HST to the V.Everything somewhere. One thing that made them very attractive was the USR BBS sysops' program. About $200, I think, which was a steal. Later ones had a plate pop-riveted to the case that said something to the effect of "Not for resale". I think Hayes had a similar sysop program. They made periodic DIY upgrades available, but they tended to obsess about returning old EPROMs and SRAMs. Later they got to be perfectly sloppy on upgrades as in "Send us your old modem when you have a chance, if you happen think of it and it's not raining." A very reliable modem in my experience. Cheers, Chuck From vrs at msn.com Thu Aug 7 17:29:01 2008 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 15:29:01 -0700 Subject: RF08/RS08 emulation References: <20080807201906.GD19776@usap.gov> <20080807215142.GB5643@usap.gov> Message-ID: From: "Ethan Dicks" > On Thu, Aug 07, 2008 at 02:27:19PM -0700, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: >> No particular reason, but the board's pretty crowded trying to get >> it all to fit in 8"x11". I'd probably use SIL resistor packs and >> shift down the six DIPs below the switches. (I'm not sure there'd >> be enough void left to route the thing with 10mil design rules.) > > Sounds crowded. It is a little. The 8"x11" restriction is really just to keep the prototype cost low for a particular board shop. If that or the 10mil restriction were relaxed, things would get easier. Of course it would also be fairly easy to redo the thing with GALs instead of TTL, which should also make it easier to fit things in, but would require me to program parts. >> There's some other "fast and loose" stuff in there too -- S240 as >> bus drivers, multiple LS loads on the bus (still should be less >> than a 74xx load), and (importantly) no provision to continue the >> bus, so that it must be placed last. There's also no equivalent >> for the G717 terminator card, so it may need to be a fairly short >> bus! > > Well... while that's not optimal, it's workable. Given the dearth > of OEM posibus equipment these days (I have none and have never > seen any except on the web), it's not like many people are going to > be sticking this on a heavily loaded bus. The RF08 is large enough > to do interesting things with, leaving only removable media to get > things on and off the system - paper tape is certainly one way, > but floppies are more convenient... in my particular case, I suppose > the largest configuration I'd attempt would be a modern solid-state > RF08 and that RX8 you/we started and haven't gotten back to. It's > been so long that I can't remember if the RX8 can be in the middle > of the posibus or not. The RX8 will go in the middle of a bus, and even has a provision for a G717 equivalent bus terminator, in the form of an optional SIL resistor pack. Real drivers, too. Of course, being known not to work as yet, I doubt anyone will be rushing out to build it :-(. Vince From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu Aug 7 17:32:21 2008 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 18:32:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: <20080807220243.GC5643@usap.gov> References: <507520.26074.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4899F65F.8000504@gmail.com> <4899FB11.2020205@gmail.com> <489B194A.4020101@gmail.com> <20080807200317.GB19776@usap.gov> <489B6961.6030402@verizon.net> <20080807220243.GC5643@usap.gov> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Aug 2008, Ethan Dicks wrote: > That sounds fancier than the VIC Modem... that one didn't even connect > to the wall directly - you picked up a regular phone, dial or touch- > tone, dialled your number, waited for carrier, and, this is the tricky > part, before the far end disconnected, you had to detach the coiled > handset cord from the receiver and plug it into the modem. I probably > had about an 80%-90% success rate without having to dial again. My first modem was a Novation J-Cat: http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/Modems/Jcat.html A tiny little thing that stuck to the side of the computer with velcro. To dial it, I had to write a program to pulse the off-hook line. I used it in 1983 with my TRS-80 Model III. > Ow... 40 col was bad enough... I can't imagine 32. I think that would > have screwed up lots of the message boards and online games I used to > use in those days. I wrote a Unix-based (Xenix, actually) BBS in 1985, along with a friend who owned a brand new Tandy 6000HD. Our lowest common denominator for screen width was the Coco, at 32 columns. So, the first time you logged in, you were stuck with 32 columns until you changed it. By that time, we were up to 1200 baud, with 4 lines. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Aug 7 17:43:08 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 16:43:08 -0600 Subject: Where to find memory ICs? In-Reply-To: <489B7703.7050009@oldskool.org> References: <43F0294F.3030705@oldskool.org> <1e1fc3e90602131138r4ff57282q20bfcde5703d8768@mail.gmail.com> <489B7703.7050009@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <489B7A7C.8020402@jetnet.ab.ca> Jim Leonard wrote: > Glen Slick wrote: >>> I just want a few tubes of these to populate the board, I'm not looking >>> for a box of 'em :-) Any pointers? >> >> www.unicornelectronics.com >> 511000-100 $1.89 quanity 25-99 > > I want to use these to populate an Above Board from 2MB to 8MB, and > that would require 6*9*1.89 = $102.06 for just 6MB of RAM. > > Does anyone know of a cheaper way to get DRAM? $100 just so I can add > 6MB of RAM to a card doesn't seem right... Quit grumbing, be thank full you don't have to have +256 meg just on video card to run the lastest pc software. :( From RichA at vulcan.com Thu Aug 7 17:50:28 2008 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 15:50:28 -0700 Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: <20080807220822.GD5643@usap.gov> References: <507520.26074.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com><4899F65F.8000504@gmail.com><4899FB11.2020205@gmail.com> <489B194A.4020101@gmail.com><20080807200317.GB19776@usap.gov><489B6961.6030402@verizon.net> <489B6C19.9040807@brouhaha.com> <20080807220822.GD5643@usap.gov> Message-ID: From: Ethan Dicks Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 3:08 PM > On Thu, Aug 07, 2008 at 02:41:45PM -0700, Eric Smith wrote: >> And we had to walk to school. Uphill. Both ways. > Amen. (oh... and in Ohio, we added "in the snow"...) ...which is funny, given the climate. Yes, the southern edge of Lake Erie gets some snow, but go south 50 miles and it's risible. The first winter I was at Ohio State, having moved there from Chicago, my wife was greatly amused when it snowed (1/2in accumulation) and they were sent home from work, schools were closed, people quit driving in panic, etc. usw. k.t.l. Of course, Ethan makes up for that with his work address! Rich From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Aug 7 17:55:26 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 17:55:26 -0500 Subject: Where to find memory ICs? In-Reply-To: <489B7A7C.8020402@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <43F0294F.3030705@oldskool.org> <1e1fc3e90602131138r4ff57282q20bfcde5703d8768@mail.gmail.com> <489B7703.7050009@oldskool.org> <489B7A7C.8020402@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <489B7D5E.6010607@oldskool.org> bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >> Does anyone know of a cheaper way to get DRAM? $100 just so I can add >> 6MB of RAM to a card doesn't seem right... > Quit grumbing, be thank full you don't have to have +256 meg just on > video card to run the lastest pc software. :( I don't think it's "grumbling" to ask if there is any way to get 1mbit DRAMs for less than $1.89 apiece... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Aug 7 18:05:36 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 17:05:36 -0600 Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: References: <507520.26074.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com><4899F65F.8000504@gmail.com><4899FB11.2020205@gmail.com> <489B194A.4020101@gmail.com><20080807200317.GB19776@usap.gov><489B6961.6030402@verizon.net> <489B6C19.9040807@brouhaha.com> <20080807220822.GD5643@usap.gov> Message-ID: <489B7FC0.7080808@jetnet.ab.ca> Rich Alderson wrote: > Of course, Ethan makes up for that with his work address! > > I am quite sure that there is very little NEW snow where Ethan lives ... while I do suspect you may have few dinosaurs buried in the ice some where. > Rich > > PS. Back on topic until about 2000 did we even have dial up here for internet access. From onymouse at garlic.com Thu Aug 7 07:59:00 2008 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 05:59:00 -0700 Subject: Double-Sided disk drives reading Single-Sided disks (HP 9122 vs 9121) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <489AF194.7020203@garlic.com> JP Hindin ????????: > > Is there any reason that the 9122 DS drive won't read a SS diskette for > the 9121? > A small thing about DOS formatted HP SSDD disks: They are marked as double-sided. When the system reads the first sector and sees that it's marked as double-sided it will try to read the next sector off the other side. No idea why HP did this. Naturally, MS|IBM-DOS ignores the double-sided bit. A system has to try to read the next sector from the same side of the disk if reading the second sector fails. There's nothing else to tell the system it's single-sided. Would be nice to get *nix & fdparm to work with SSDD floppies. -- jd From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Aug 7 18:40:18 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 16:40:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: References: <507520.26074.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4899F65F.8000504@gmail.com> <4899FB11.2020205@gmail.com> <489B194A.4020101@gmail.com> <20080807200317.GB19776@usap.gov> <489B6961.6030402@verizon.net> <20080807220243.GC5643@usap.gov> Message-ID: > > My first modem was a Novation J-Cat: > > http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/Modems/Jcat.html > That reminds me - Novation made a 2400 baud modem that used a fancy LCD display with an amber background to it. What was it called? I'd love to add one to my collection... > > I wrote a Unix-based (Xenix, actually) BBS in 1985, along with a friend > who owned a brand new Tandy 6000HD. Our lowest common denominator for screen > width was the Coco, at 32 columns. So, the first time you logged in, you > were stuck with 32 columns until you changed it. By that time, we were up to > 1200 baud, with 4 lines. > Micro Magic had four lines? Must have been after Jason yelled at me and I quit calling. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From madodel at ptdprolog.net Thu Aug 7 20:40:17 2008 From: madodel at ptdprolog.net (madodel) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 20:40:17 -0500 Subject: COBOL quote in the news In-Reply-To: <489B3CB5.7070806@brouhaha.com> References: <489ABA22.8563.F6561BF@cclist.sydex.com> <489B3CB5.7070806@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <489BA401.3000306@ptdprolog.net> Eric Smith wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> "COBOL programmers are hard to come by these days," said Fred Forrer, >> the Sacramento-based CEO of MGT of America, a public-sector consulting >> firm. "It's certainly not a language that is taught. Oftentimes, you >> have to rely on retired annuitants to come back and help maintain the >> system until you're able to find a replacement." > > It's not at all hard to find COBOL programmers, and they are NOT all > retired. Offer a decent salary, and you'll get them. What the state is > specifically trying to do, though is to cut everyone's salaries, so how > likely is it that they'll offer a good salary to a COBOL programmer. > > The real story is that it's a bunch of political posturing. > > Just prior to y2k they were paying large bonuses to get C programmers to learn COBOL so the 100s of millions of lines of code could be checked and patched. Large companies were desperate. I'm sure a lot of these folks were canned after 2000 when all the Y2K nonsense finally ended but I'm sure they aren't all retired. And they should still be around if someone offered them enough money. I haven't written any code since 2001, because any contract would have required me to travel which I couldn't do any more. But it was great while it lasted. Mark (Who is retired but still too busy to get everything done.) From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 7 18:41:28 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 16:41:28 -0700 Subject: Where to find memory ICs? In-Reply-To: <489B7703.7050009@oldskool.org> References: <43F0294F.3030705@oldskool.org>, <1e1fc3e90602131138r4ff57282q20bfcde5703d8768@mail.gmail.com>, <489B7703.7050009@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <489B25B8.1821.11099DCA@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Aug 2008 at 17:28, Jim Leonard wrote: > Does anyone know of a cheaper way to get DRAM? $100 just so I can add > 6MB of RAM to a card doesn't seem right... Well, you asked. I posted a "WANT" on the local Freecycle list for any old 286/386 systems and got a couple of replies. One of them was an old Micronics 386/20 system with 8MB of DIPs on the memory boards. Cost me only the time to go across town and get it. Got a nice AT- style clone case to go with it as well as bunch of other stuff. If I'dve asked for CRT monitors, my inbox would probably be full. The funny thing is that a friend recently had his house burgled where the thief took his 17" no-name VGA monitor (left his computer) and a rusty Buck knife. His insurance company valued them at $689, so cut a check over his $500 deductible. I wondered how the malefactor was going to fence a monitor that the local recycler charges $10 to take. Cheers, Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Aug 7 18:46:28 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 16:46:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: <20080807220243.GC5643@usap.gov> from Ethan Dicks at "Aug 7, 8 10:02:43 pm" Message-ID: <200808072346.m77NkThN025506@floodgap.com> > That sounds fancier than the VIC Modem... that one didn't even connect > to the wall directly - you picked up a regular phone, dial or touch- > tone, dialled your number, waited for carrier, and, this is the tricky > part, before the far end disconnected, you had to detach the coiled > handset cord from the receiver and plug it into the modem. I probably > had about an 80%-90% success rate without having to dial again. > > It made the modem cheap, but a bit fiddly to use. If phones had been > cheaper then, it might have made sense to scrap one out and make a > simple switch-box, but I never had the parts on hand to try it. I don't remember doing this with my VICMODEM, I think (though I was younger then) that we had a splitter. The 1660 was luxury by comparison though. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- TRUE HEADLINE: Teacher Strikes Idle Kids ----------------------------------- From eric at brouhaha.com Thu Aug 7 19:39:06 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 17:39:06 -0700 Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: <489B6EA5.205@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <507520.26074.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4899F65F.8000504@gmail.com> <4899FB11.2020205@gmail.com> <489B194A.4020101@gmail.com> <20080807200317.GB19776@usap.gov> <489B6961.6030402@verizon.net> <489B6C19.9040807@brouhaha.com> <489B6EA5.205@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <489B95AA.5070308@brouhaha.com> bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > Did the 28 TTY have a paper tape reader/punch like 33? The 28 was more modular than the 33. The reader and punch were options. The biggest drawback to the 28 was that it used a 5-level code (but NOT Baudot code), so there were fewer symbols and you had to use the letters and figures shifts. The oldest code I've written for which I still have source is a driver for the 28 for the little-known Apex operating system. The system natively used ASCII, so the driver did the translation, and characters that weren't available were represented using overstrikes (like many APL operators). The 28 didn't have a backspace, so the driver kept track of all the overstrikes needed on the line and did a second pass if necessary. http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/software/ttyhan/ From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Thu Aug 7 20:13:43 2008 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 21:13:43 -0400 Subject: COBOL quote in the news In-Reply-To: <8955.209.163.133.242.1218144807.squirrel@webmail.io.com> References: <200808072125.m77LP2La045818@dewey.classiccmp.org> <8955.209.163.133.242.1218144807.squirrel@webmail.io.com> Message-ID: An easy way to see that the California stories is about lying managers rather than about COBOL is this: In the 20-30 years that software has been used, there surely have been some pay raises. Did it take 6 months each to put those into effect? Of course not. Ok, so it can't take 6 months to put a pay cut into effect, either. QED. paul From michael.passer at gmail.com Thu Aug 7 20:41:27 2008 From: michael.passer at gmail.com (Michael Passer) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 20:41:27 -0500 Subject: COBOL quote in the news In-Reply-To: References: <200808072125.m77LP2La045818@dewey.classiccmp.org> <8955.209.163.133.242.1218144807.squirrel@webmail.io.com> Message-ID: <9b0f05d60808071841x570deeaekfb7e45d3430ab91d@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Aug 7, 2008 at 8:13 PM, Paul Koning wrote: An easy way to see that the California stories is about lying managers rather than about COBOL is this: In the 20-30 years that software has been used, there surely have been some pay raises. Tempting to jump on, but there might be transactional support for percentage or flat pay changes that would require no source changes, while the flat adjustment across the board could well require a source change, recompilation, relinking and the concomitant testing and auditor approvals. Michael From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Aug 7 20:44:23 2008 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 21:44:23 -0400 Subject: Where to find memory ICs? References: <43F0294F.3030705@oldskool.org>, <1e1fc3e90602131138r4ff57282q20bfcde5703d8768@mail.gmail.com>, <489B7703.7050009@oldskool.org> <489B25B8.1821.11099DCA@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <005b01c8f8f8$4930c550$6601a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 7:41 PM Subject: Re: Where to find memory ICs? > On 7 Aug 2008 at 17:28, Jim Leonard wrote: > >> Does anyone know of a cheaper way to get DRAM? $100 just so I can add >> 6MB of RAM to a card doesn't seem right... > > Well, you asked. I posted a "WANT" on the local Freecycle list for > any old 286/386 systems and got a couple of replies. One of them was > an old Micronics 386/20 system with 8MB of DIPs on the memory boards. > > Cost me only the time to go across town and get it. Got a nice AT- > style clone case to go with it as well as bunch of other stuff. > > If I'dve asked for CRT monitors, my inbox would probably be full. > The funny thing is that a friend recently had his house burgled where > the thief took his 17" no-name VGA monitor (left his computer) and a > rusty Buck knife. His insurance company valued them at $689, so cut > a check over his $500 deductible. I wondered how the malefactor was > going to fence a monitor that the local recycler charges $10 to take. > > Cheers, > Chuck > Finding a 386 of any kind on freecycle is hard enough, but finding one with 8MB of DIP is like hitting the lottery. There days you are better off gutting some cards/boards you do not like or need to get chips then buying them online. A while back I snagged a IIgs that had a transwarp in it for $10 (yes, even I get lucky) and it had a RAM card that can do 6mb onboard (populated with 1MB of DIP). I looked around and found the cheapest a 1MB set of chips can be had was $18 plus shipping, so to fully populate it I would need 5 sets for $90 + shipping. Now I am too cheap to pay $90 so I looked around a while and somebody had a dead Sirius 8MB card (that used 30 pin SIMMs x 8). Snagged it with some other stuff he was selling (ram card was free) and found it just had corrosion on some pins, cleaned it and it worked. I considered that hitting the lottery twice in one week since the RAM card goes for $175 new or $200+ on ebay (which is funny since you can buy them new online cheaper). For my Amiga 2091 SCSI card I ended up gutting the RAM out of a couple VLB video cards to get 2MB onboard (came with 0 and with no RAM you have no DMA and that is very slow). Speaking of VLB cards I found that PCI Mac vram SIMMs tends to be the same spec the higher end VLB video cards used and can be found dirt cheap. Just pop them off the SIMM and stick them in your cards RAM upgrade sockets. TZ From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu Aug 7 20:56:08 2008 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 21:56:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: References: <507520.26074.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4899F65F.8000504@gmail.com> <4899FB11.2020205@gmail.com> <489B194A.4020101@gmail.com> <20080807200317.GB19776@usap.gov> <489B6961.6030402@verizon.net> <20080807220243.GC5643@usap.gov> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Aug 2008, Gene Buckle wrote: >> in, you were stuck with 32 columns until you changed it. By that time, we >> were up to 1200 baud, with 4 lines. >> > Micro Magic had four lines? Must have been after Jason yelled at me and I > quit calling. :) Yep, 4 lines, but I had one of them tied up most evenings. Remember "watchdog"? It monitored logins and limited you to a 30 minute session. It sent you a warning after 25 minutes, then another after 29 minutes (if I remember correctly), then disconnected you at 30 minutes so someone else could dial in. Speed-dial wars... :-) Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Aug 7 20:56:34 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 21:56:34 -0400 Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: <489B6961.6030402@verizon.net> References: <507520.26074.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <20080807200317.GB19776@usap.gov> <489B6961.6030402@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200808072156.35030.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 07 August 2008 17:30, Keith M wrote: > I didn't miss the 300 baud era. I remember my first modem was a "direct > connect" 300bps model sold by radio shack. It had an "answer or > originate" switch, along with a big red button that said "Connect." > Push the button, carrier was activated. No Hayes command set, no ATDT, > no autodialing, nothing. You needed to dial manually, listen for > carrier, push the button, and hang up. I used a 4th-hand pulse phone, > because that's all my parents had to give me. Mine didn't have that button, just the single switch, to select which mode you wanted. Some of the numerous BBSs in the Harrisburg area were running the wrong way, as I recall. There were bunches of them, most run on c64s, though I know of one on an Apple and one on a CP/M box (from which I now have the HD external box), and a few on clone hardware, back then. (Snip) > 300 baud was actually fast enough for the majority of what I did for at > least a couple years. 1200 baud was state of the art -- but many people > still connected at 300 baud. When I later upgraded to an Amiga 500, I > also got a 2400 baud modem which was lightning by comparison. But then > the files got bigger.... I later got a 14.4/16.8k (dual standard, > Courier and HST, anyone remember these?) which was the BOMB --- no one > had anything faster in the early 90's. And then came K56flex and x2, > competing standards........ After the above mentioned 300 I got an Avatex 1200 (non-standard command set for sure) that had problems, and I was able to get a hold of them and get them to send me a new processor chip for not all that much -- I think I had $40 invested in it altogether. Then later on came a Cardinal 2400, a Zoom 14.4 (which got swapped out under warranty when the line relay crapped out and it wouldn't release the phone line), followed by a few different Courier modems, 28.8 and 33.6, and one I got a hold of had the flash upgrade for 56K, though they didn't seem to make that widely available to folks. Not even those of use who purchased under the sysop deal! I still have all of them. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Aug 7 21:03:53 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 22:03:53 -0400 Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: <20080807220822.GD5643@usap.gov> References: <507520.26074.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <489B6C19.9040807@brouhaha.com> <20080807220822.GD5643@usap.gov> Message-ID: <200808072203.53687.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 07 August 2008 18:08, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Thu, Aug 07, 2008 at 02:41:45PM -0700, Eric Smith wrote: > > Keith M wrote: > > >I didn't miss the 300 baud era. I remember my first modem was a "direct > > >connect" 300bps model sold by radio shack. It had an "answer or > > > > 300 baud? Luxury! We *dreamed* of having 300 baud. We used Model 33 > > Teletypes at 110 baud, and we were darned lucky to have those. One guy > > I knew only had a Model 28 Teletype at 45.5 baud. On the other hand, > > the Model 28 was *much* more reliable than a 33. > > Fortunately, I suppose, I missed _that_ era. I have fiddled with real > TTYs, but mostly as PDP-8 peripherals, not as a primary dialup experience. > > I did pick up an ASR-33 w/110 baud "data set" in the pedestal for $35 > at Dayton after everyone had moved to 300/1200 baud. I had hoped to > use it with my first PDP-8/L, but never figured out how to divorce the > TTY part from the modem (I could probably do it now). Unfortunately, > in my youthful exhuberance, I removed the touch-tone pad, so now it > sits, unable to call anyone (though I think I later tested that I could > call _it_ and print messages on it, then send EOT to turn it back off). > > Yet another of those long-term projects is to put the touch-tone pad > back in and get it working. The follow-on would be to build and install > a reader-run relay circuit and get it working as a DEC console TTY, > but since I _have_ one of those (that _is_ working), that aspect of > the restoration isn't as pressing. > > > And we had to walk to school. Uphill. Both ways. > > Amen. (oh... and in Ohio, we added "in the snow"...) > > -ethan You forgot "in bare feet..." -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Aug 7 21:09:04 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 22:09:04 -0400 Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: <489B1458.10572.10C5C113@cclist.sydex.com> References: <507520.26074.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <02cd01c8f8d8$c6f37ed0$1802a8c0@JIMM> <489B1458.10572.10C5C113@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200808072209.05159.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 07 August 2008 18:27, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 7 Aug 2008 at 15:58, Jim MacKenzie wrote: > > The Couriers were the modems to drool over in the BBS days. When modem > > prices came down a few years ago, I picked myself up a Courier > > V.Everything modem (which does 16,800 bps HST and 56K v.90, along with > > all the rates below them). It is still the best modem ever produced (and > > one of the largest :) ). > > I have three different vintages from the original Courier HST to the > V.Everything somewhere. > > One thing that made them very attractive was the USR BBS sysops' > program. About $200, I think, which was a steal. The figure $249 comes to mind for me. > Later ones had a plate pop-riveted to the case that said something to the > effect of "Not for resale". I think Hayes had a similar sysop program. Two of the ones I have bear such a plate. > They made periodic DIY upgrades available, but they tended to obsess > about returning old EPROMs and SRAMs. The ones I have only upgraded by way of flash. > Later they got to be perfectly sloppy on upgrades as in "Send us your old > modem when you have a chance, if you happen think of it and it's not > raining." I never got informed that there was even a shot at the upgrade to 56K, and then you were expected to pay for it. Luckily I got one that had already had that done to it. > A very reliable modem in my experience. Yup! I also have this other one, the name not coming to mind offhand, but it was in a smaller case and seemed to run somewhat warmer. New out of the box, it worked well for me at 56K until getting glitched one day and then when I tried "AT" anything what it comes back with is "boot:" and nothing else. I've not been able to find anything about it online, so far... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From kfergason at gmail.com Thu Aug 7 21:17:31 2008 From: kfergason at gmail.com (Kelly Fergason) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 21:17:31 -0500 Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: <200808072203.53687.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <507520.26074.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <489B6C19.9040807@brouhaha.com> <20080807220822.GD5643@usap.gov> <200808072203.53687.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <78ff9a210808071917k2a2829afk55d1f62d2be79517@mail.gmail.com> Ahh, hiding in the closet so the parents wouldn't find me, with the Silent 700 and the 110 baud modem, dialing into the HP2000F, playing STTR1 all night. 30 years ago. time flies. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Aug 7 21:29:34 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 20:29:34 -0600 Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: <200808072203.53687.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <507520.26074.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <489B6C19.9040807@brouhaha.com> <20080807220822.GD5643@usap.gov> <200808072203.53687.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <489BAF8E.3020005@jetnet.ab.ca> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > You forgot "in bare feet..." > > The bear chasing you has the BARE feet. :) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Aug 7 21:33:34 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 20:33:34 -0600 Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: <78ff9a210808071917k2a2829afk55d1f62d2be79517@mail.gmail.com> References: <507520.26074.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <489B6C19.9040807@brouhaha.com> <20080807220822.GD5643@usap.gov> <200808072203.53687.rtellason@verizon.net> <78ff9a210808071917k2a2829afk55d1f62d2be79517@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <489BB07E.8020409@jetnet.ab.ca> Kelly Fergason wrote: > Ahh, hiding in the closet so the parents wouldn't find me, with the > Silent 700 and > the 110 baud modem, dialing into the HP2000F, playing STTR1 all night. > > 30 years ago. time flies. > > You might what to leave the closet now to hit the john ... runs and ducks. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Aug 7 21:37:46 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 20:37:46 -0600 Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: <489BB07E.8020409@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <507520.26074.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <489B6C19.9040807@brouhaha.com> <20080807220822.GD5643@usap.gov> <200808072203.53687.rtellason@verizon.net> <78ff9a210808071917k2a2829afk55d1f62d2be79517@mail.gmail.com> <489BB07E.8020409@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <489BB17A.5060801@jetnet.ab.ca> bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > Kelly Fergason wrote: >> Ahh, hiding in the closet so the parents wouldn't find me, with the >> Silent 700 and >> the 110 baud modem, dialing into the HP2000F, playing STTR1 all night. >> >> 30 years ago. time flies. >> umm correction >> You might want to leave the closet now to hit the john ... > runs and ducks. > From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 7 21:48:02 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 19:48:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: <20080807220822.GD5643@usap.gov> References: <507520.26074.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4899F65F.8000504@gmail.com> <4899FB11.2020205@gmail.com> <489B194A.4020101@gmail.com> <20080807200317.GB19776@usap.gov> <489B6961.6030402@verizon.net> <489B6C19.9040807@brouhaha.com> <20080807220822.GD5643@usap.gov> Message-ID: <20080807194635.F49564@shell.lmi.net> Ah, yes. Remember Carterphone V Western Electric? On Thu, 7 Aug 2008, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > And we had to walk to school. Uphill. Both ways. > > Amen. (oh... and in Ohio, we added "in the snow"...) barefoot. From legalize at xmission.com Thu Aug 7 22:01:33 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 21:01:33 -0600 Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 07 Aug 2008 17:50:08 -0400. <20080807215008.GA13516@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: My first home modem experience was using a Silent 700 TI terminal (thermal print head) with a built-in acoustic coupler. It was manually dial the number and then plug the phone into the cups. This was before we had a modular phone jack in our house, so the terminal had to be physically close to the phone in the kitchen. This was after I had been using modems to connect Beehive, Tektronix 4010 and DECwriter LA36 terminals to the PDP-11/70 across town, usually via 300 baud acoustic couplers. Later we got a few leased line modems at 1800 baud. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Aug 7 22:18:24 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 20:18:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: References: <507520.26074.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4899F65F.8000504@gmail.com> <4899FB11.2020205@gmail.com> <489B194A.4020101@gmail.com> <20080807200317.GB19776@usap.gov> <489B6961.6030402@verizon.net> <20080807220243.GC5643@usap.gov> Message-ID: >>> in, you were stuck with 32 columns until you changed it. By that time, we >>> were up to 1200 baud, with 4 lines. >>> >> Micro Magic had four lines? Must have been after Jason yelled at me and I >> quit calling. :) > > Yep, 4 lines, but I had one of them tied up most evenings. Remember > "watchdog"? It monitored logins and limited you to a 30 minute session. It > sent you a warning after 25 minutes, then another after 29 minutes (if I > remember correctly), then disconnected you at 30 minutes so someone else > could dial in. Speed-dial wars... :-) > I never had to speed dial MM that much. Pirates of Puget Sound however...that was a whole 'nother story. I recall a weekend where I redialed for 18 hours straight before I got on...*wistful sigh* g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Thu Aug 7 22:52:01 2008 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 23:52:01 -0400 Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: At the risk of boring those who have read it before... Procedure For Connecting To The 'net Circa 1978 (That's the ARPANET for all you young whipper-snappers. What we called the internet before they let all of the riff-raff in.) Initial notes: Do not begin this procedure before 11PM. This avoids conflicts over telephone usage with your parents. Net resources are generally not available to "tourists" before this time anyway. Resource availability is generally best on Friday, Saturday and Sunday nights and holidays. Keep an ear open for police sirens. Rumor has it that the FCC will come and arrest you (and/or your parents) if it detects illegal equipment attached to the telephone system. Another reason to operate late at night, they probably aren't watching. 1) Move your computer from your bedroom to the kitchen table (that's where the phone is!). Don't connect power to the modem yet, it produces a carrier whenever it is powered and you need to be able to hear the far end of the telephone connection when you first dial. Also, you want it to be cool when you initiate the connection. 2) Take the handset off of the hook and replace it with the piece of broomstick that you fashioned for that purpose. 3) Get a big towel from the linen closet. Fold it into quarters and put the handset on it. Attach the speaker and microphone to the handset with wide rubber bands. Fold the towel over the handset. This will prevent various ambient sounds (like the sound of typing) from introducing noise on the line. 4) Being sure that the cassette/modem switch (a DPDT switch that connects the transmit and receive pins of the USART to either the cassette interface or the modem) is in the cassette position, load the terminal program. Run the program. You are greeted with a blank screen (this is normal but you can't be 100% sure that it loaded correctly until you have connected). Switch the cassette/modem switch to modem. You may see a few garbage characters on the screen (that's a good sign). 5) Get an ice cube from the freezer, put it in a sandwich bag and put it on the towel next to the modem. 6) Remove the broom stick from the telephone hook and dial the NBS (National Bureau of Standards) TIP (Terminal Interface Processor). Listen for the call to be answered and for the carrier on the far end. Sometimes the TIP is down and won't answer, sometimes it is down and will answer but won't give a carrier. If it's down, wait an hour and try again. 7) If you get a carrier, apply power to the modem. Start pressing the @ (at) key once a second until it is echoed on your screen. Listen for the chirp when you press the key. If you don't hear it, the terminal program isn't running correctly, hang up, unpower the modem, reset the computer and go back to step 4. 8) Once the @ character is echoed, press enter. You should get an error message (I no longer remember the text). Now type "@O 77". This instructs the TIP to connect you to the MIT-DM (Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Dynamic Modeling) computer. 9) Start pressing the return key once a second until you get a logon prompt (I no longer remember the prompt text). The user name and password are GUEST. 10) Once logged on, wait for a minute or two, pressing enter every ten seconds or so. This gives the operator a chance to notice you and kick you off if the system is busy. If he's in a chatty mood, you'll get a message like "The system's busy, get lost!". If not, your connection will just die. If the system is busy, try again in an hour or so. 11) I no longer remember how to start up Zork or some of the other programs... anyone feel free to provide details I'm missing. Keep an ear on the connection. If the carrier starts to change pitch, wipe any condensation off the ice cube bag on the towel and then apply to the smaller chip on the right on the modem board. From bear at typewritten.org Thu Aug 7 23:02:33 2008 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 21:02:33 -0700 Subject: IBM Model M keyboard spares In-Reply-To: <20080807124217.I34639@shell.lmi.net> References: <575131af0808061032j2d59a5e0id53f06dbaf1b7626@mail.gmail.com> <4899F73F.3010608@gmail.com> <575131af0808070431p27493743y63a5291b00b22a30@mail.gmail.com> <20080807124217.I34639@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <01C3A450-92AA-4135-A2EA-CE868C522855@typewritten.org> On Aug 7, 2008, at 12:45 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Thu, 7 Aug 2008, Liam Proven wrote: > >> 2008/8/6 Sridhar Ayengar : >>> Liam Proven wrote: >>>> >>>> /The/ classic PC keyboard, IMHO. >>> >>> The Model M came out *waay* after the PC. The 84-key is the one >>> for the PC. >>> I don't think the Model M is even compatible with the PC. >> >> Oh, come on, Sridhar, don't be so anally retentive or obsessive! >> >> I didn't say "the classic IBM model 5250 PC-XT keyboard" or anything >> of the kind. I said PC. "PC" is a generic term, which to hundreds of >> millions around the world just means a Personal Computer. In fact the >> PC to which the model M I am typing on right now is attached to is, >> as >> it happens, an Apple 20" 2GH PowerPC G5 iMac. > > It is easy to parse what you said to be referring to "classic PC". > Would an Apple 20" 2GH PowerPC G5 iMac be considered a "classic PC"? > > In THIS mob, "classic PC" means 5150. > Even those who avoid the IBM products would be considered "5150" by > those > familiar with police radio codes. But what surprises me is that nobody has yet pointed out that the 5150 PC keyboard had only 83 keys. It wasn't until the 5170 AT keyboard that we got 84 keys! ok bear From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 7 23:06:08 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 21:06:08 -0700 Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: <200808072209.05159.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <507520.26074.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com>, <489B1458.10572.10C5C113@cclist.sydex.com>, <200808072209.05159.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <489B63C0.21120.11FBEBEC@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Aug 2008 at 22:09, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > I also have this other one, the name not coming to mind offhand, but it was > in a smaller case and seemed to run somewhat warmer. New out of the box, it > worked well for me at 56K until getting glitched one day and then when I > tried "AT" anything what it comes back with is "boot:" and nothing else. > I've not been able to find anything about it online, so far... This was a USR? Not a Sportster? The Courier V.Everything and Dual Standards are smaller than the HST, but I assume that isn't what you're talking about. There was also a lot of junk out there--and I'm not talking about those worthless "Winmodems", although those are in a class of garbage all their own. I made the mistake of buying a Hayes Optima 288 V.FC "business modem", I did upgrade the firmware to V.34, but the thing was flakey as hell. I also had a Zoom 56Kx modem, which delivered miserable performance. USR Sportsters seemed to work all right for awhile and then exhibit problems. But the Couriers just kept on working until I closed down the BBS (still have the hard disk with NT 4.0 and Auntie on it--it might be fun to boot it to see what the message log has in it). Cheers, Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Aug 7 23:08:34 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 21:08:34 -0700 Subject: Computer collectors are no longer the dweebiest people in the In-Reply-To: <489B17FF.7020108@gmail.com> References: <00ae01c8f813$5c96e880$6601a8c0@game> <489B17FF.7020108@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 10:42:55 -0500 > From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com > To: > Subject: Re: Computer collectors are no longer the dweebiest people in the > > Teo Zenios wrote: >> How many people with original Apple I's would run them very often if at all? > > I'd run it if I had one. The way I figure it: > > a) Those ICs are going to die eventually anyway, whether I run it or not, > b) There's enough knowledge of the machine out there that we don't need to > preserve operational ones for historical research purposes, > c) The price of Apple I's is just silly. > > ... although in reality if I had one I'd trade it for something more appealing > (or, given the ridiculous value, lots of things that were more appealing :-) > > cheers > > Jules > Hi Jules I'm with you. I have at least two machines in my collection that are as rare or even rarer than an Apple 1 and I run them when I can. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Get Windows Live and get whatever you need, wherever you are. Start here. http://www.windowslive.com/default.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Home_082008 From brain at jbrain.com Thu Aug 7 23:15:15 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 23:15:15 -0500 Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: <200808072346.m77NkThN025506@floodgap.com> References: <200808072346.m77NkThN025506@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <489BC853.2050104@jbrain.com> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> That sounds fancier than the VIC Modem... that one didn't even connect >> to the wall directly - you picked up a regular phone, dial or touch- >> tone, dialled your number, waited for carrier, and, this is the tricky >> part, before the far end disconnected, you had to detach the coiled >> handset cord from the receiver and plug it into the modem. I probably >> had about an 80%-90% success rate without having to dial again. >> >> It made the modem cheap, but a bit fiddly to use. If phones had been >> cheaper then, it might have made sense to scrap one out and make a >> simple switch-box, but I never had the parts on hand to try it. >> > > I don't remember doing this with my VICMODEM, I think (though I was younger > then) that we had a splitter. > > The 1660 was luxury by comparison though. > > I remember doing the "pull the handset cord" thing, but I also remember the splitter idea. Our rural lines were so bad I couldn't even get that modem to work at 300. I did call some buddies at 150bps, but it was far easier to just talk on the phone. Jim -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Thu Aug 7 23:19:00 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 04:19:00 +0000 Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: References: <20080807215008.GA13516@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <20080808041900.GA3166@usap.gov> On Thu, Aug 07, 2008 at 09:01:33PM -0600, Richard wrote: > My first home modem experience was using a Silent 700 TI terminal (thermal > print head) with a built-in acoustic coupler. It was manually dial the > number and then plug the phone into the cups. I have one of those now - a freebie from a friend I ran into at the Dayton Hamfest - the funny part was, he'd brought it as trade goods or to sell from another friend's tailgate, but nobody there wanted anything to do with it - he hauled it around half the day until he ran into me - he was sufficiently disillusioned that as long as I would take it from him on the spot, it was mine! > This was before we had > a modular phone jack in our house, so the terminal had to be physically > close to the phone in the kitchen. I think I removed all the hardwired jacks upstairs myself and replaced them with modular ones by the time I got my first modem. Our kitchen didn't even have a phone (and still doesn't) - the nearest phone was, IIRC, either in the dining room or in what was once "the parlor". Ah, the joys of an underwired older house. Ours was built around 1905 and was wired for electricity _after_ it was built. Not a grounded outlet in sight. :-/ -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 8-Aug-2008 at 04:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -50.3 F (-45.7 C) Windchill -86.5 F (-65.9 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 15.8 kts Grid 23 Barometer 682.6 mb (10530 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Thu Aug 7 23:19:58 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 04:19:58 +0000 Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: References: <4899FB11.2020205@gmail.com> <489B194A.4020101@gmail.com> <20080807200317.GB19776@usap.gov> <489B6961.6030402@verizon.net> <20080807220243.GC5643@usap.gov> Message-ID: <20080808041958.GB3166@usap.gov> On Thu, Aug 07, 2008 at 08:18:24PM -0700, Gene Buckle wrote: > I never had to speed dial MM that much. Pirates of Puget Sound > however...that was a whole 'nother story. I recall a weekend where I > redialed for 18 hours straight before I got on...*wistful sigh* I always found the best time to get onto the local BBSes was whenever "Star Trek" was on TV - the connection stats page of the BBSes confirmed that it was the lowest point between 17:00 and 02:00 every day. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 8-Aug-2008 at 04:10 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -50.3 F (-45.7 C) Windchill -86.5 F (-65.9 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 15.8 kts Grid 23 Barometer 682.6 mb (10530 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 7 23:20:37 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 21:20:37 -0700 Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: References: >, Message-ID: <489B6725.5778.12092BF2@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Aug 2008 at 21:01, Richard wrote: > My first home modem experience was using a Silent 700 TI terminal (thermal > print head) with a built-in acoustic coupler. It was manually dial the > number and then plug the phone into the cups. This was before we had > a modular phone jack in our house, so the terminal had to be physically > close to the phone in the kitchen. When I had just gotten my Altair 8800, I picked up the modem unit (with acoustic coupler) from one of the surplus places advertising in PE. I remounted the thing in one of those gray hammertone aluminum Bud boxes. The power supply was pretty easy--and I added a jack that bypassed the acoustic coupler so I could plug my GE cassette recorder into the modem. Flip the front-panel switches for a bit to load a terminal program (I had a TV Typewriter modified for 64 characters/line connected to a hot-chassis Zenith tube-type portable TV (yeah, it was dumb, but it worked). Woo-hoo! I could dial into work at 300 baud and even save my work on cassette. I wrote an 8080 assembler that ran on the CDC mainframe so I could edit, assemble and download and run code. When I finally attached a speaker to "interrupt enable" LED on the front panel, I couild even make music using EI and DI instructions to toggle the line. It was really cool, crashes and all. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Thu Aug 7 23:25:12 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 04:25:12 +0000 Subject: RF08/RS08 emulation In-Reply-To: References: <20080807215142.GB5643@usap.gov> Message-ID: <20080808042512.GC3166@usap.gov> On Thu, Aug 07, 2008 at 03:29:01PM -0700, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > It is a little. The 8"x11" restriction is really just to keep the > prototype cost low for a particular board shop. If that or the > 10mil restriction were relaxed, things would get easier. Gotcha. > Of course it would also be fairly easy to redo the thing with > GALs instead of TTL, which should also make it easier to fit > things in, but would require me to program parts. Sure. I myself have a couple of burners and more than a handful of 16V8s and 22V10s, so _I_ wouldn't mind a GAL-inclusive design, but there is something neat about an all-TTL design replacing and upgrading a FLIP-CHIP disk - you can get a probe in there and see *exactly* what's going on. I forget... does a real RF08 have a KM11 port? I happen to have a couple of as-yet-unassembled modern replicas, but I got them to plug into my RK-11C and PDP-11/20 (and probably an RX01 just to watch it blink), so they'll get use, but I just don't remember about the RF08. > > The RX8 will go in the middle of a bus, and even has a provision for a > G717 equivalent bus terminator, in the form of an optional SIL resistor > pack. Thanks for the reminder - sounds like a very workable combination. Oh... the RF08 is a databreak device - I think that would mean that I'd need one more module for OMNIBUS testing, but I do have the required M-series logic to fit that into the -8/L. > Real drivers, too. Of course, being known not to work as yet, > I doubt anyone will be rushing out to build it :-(. Right... I _am_ still interested in getting it working, but to be quite honest, it'll be 6 months until I could even start to look at it - gotta get home first. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 8-Aug-2008 at 04:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -50.4 F (-45.8 C) Windchill -88.3 F (-66.8 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 17.5 kts Grid 13 Barometer 682.5 mb (10534 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Aug 7 23:24:08 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 00:24:08 -0400 Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: <489B63C0.21120.11FBEBEC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <507520.26074.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <200808072209.05159.rtellason@verizon.net> <489B63C0.21120.11FBEBEC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200808080024.08317.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 08 August 2008 00:06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 7 Aug 2008 at 22:09, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > I also have this other one, the name not coming to mind offhand, but it > > was in a smaller case and seemed to run somewhat warmer. New out of the > > box, it worked well for me at 56K until getting glitched one day and > > then when I tried "AT" anything what it comes back with is "boot:" and > > nothing else. I've not been able to find anything about it online, so > > far... > > This was a USR? Not a Sportster? The Courier V.Everything and Dual > Standards are smaller than the HST, but I assume that isn't what > you're talking about. No, I finally remembered the name -- it's a "Maxtech" (or maybe Max-Tech). > There was also a lot of junk out there--and I'm not talking about those > worthless "Winmodems", although those are in a class of garbage all their > own. Yup. I did pretty well with that, got some decent connect rates, until it got zapped. > I made the mistake of buying a Hayes Optima 288 V.FC "business > modem", I did upgrade the firmware to V.34, but the thing was flakey > as hell. I also had a Zoom 56Kx modem, which delivered miserable > performance. USR Sportsters seemed to work all right for awhile and > then exhibit problems. Zoom put a bad taste in my mouth in a couple of ways. First the manual that came with the modem didn't include the complete set of commands at all and most particularly didn't include anything at all about using it for fax purposes, even though it was supposedly capable of that. Then I called their bbs, which I was of the initial (mistaken) impression was supposed to be there to support their products. If I hadn't stumbled across some messaging to some other caller in a public area I wouldn't have known that there was a ROM upgrade available for the unit I had, or another manual. Eventually I got them to send me those, but spent over an hour poking around there (long distance) looking for tech support. Then when that relay went bad on me later on and I sent it off for warranty repair they send it back in a different box, that was a plain white box rather than the one I'd started with. The original box was the only place that it said anything about the 7-year warranty, there was nothing in the paperwork about it. Thankfully I moved on to USR not too long after that. > But the Couriers just kept on working until I closed down the BBS > (still have the hard disk with NT 4.0 and Auntie on it--it might be > fun to boot it to see what the message log has in it). Indeed they did, mostly. I had one of those get zapped, too. I shut down my bbs and the next time I tried to fire up that machine that first HD wasn't working all that well, and didn't want to boot at all. Good thing I had a whole bunch of smaller drives in there instead of everything on one big one, but there's still some stuff on there I'd like to get at one of these days. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Aug 7 23:26:19 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 00:26:19 -0400 Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: <489B63C0.21120.11FBEBEC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <507520.26074.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <200808072209.05159.rtellason@verizon.net> <489B63C0.21120.11FBEBEC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200808080026.19461.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 08 August 2008 00:06, Chuck Guzis wrote: > This was a USR? Not a Sportster? The Courier V.Everything and Dual > Standards are smaller than the HST, but I assume that isn't what > you're talking about. (Snip) > USR Sportsters seemed to work all right for awhile and then exhibit > problems. Oh, and I happened to wander into a local ISP at one point. (They're long gone now, unfortunately.) Stuck my head through a doorway which seemed to cause them no end of consternation when I glanced toward the single big tower that was in the room there, and then on the wall nearby I saw phone wiring and a whole *bunch* of modems hanging on the wall -- all Sportsters, which I commented on at that time. Surprised the heck out of me, that did. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Aug 7 23:28:38 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 00:28:38 -0400 Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: <20080808041900.GA3166@usap.gov> References: <20080807215008.GA13516@brevard.conman.org> <20080808041900.GA3166@usap.gov> Message-ID: <200808080028.38306.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 08 August 2008 00:19, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Ah, the joys of an underwired older house. Ours was built around 1905 > and was wired for electricity _after_ it was built. Not a grounded > outlet in sight. :-/ There are bunches of those old outlets here. And two boxes of grounded outlets in the basement. I told the landlord here I'd be glad to put 'em in, but that I'd need to have some wire available because there was no way I was going to put grounded outlets in if they weren't in fact grounded. I'm still waiting... :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Aug 7 23:52:42 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 22:52:42 -0600 Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: <200808080028.38306.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <20080807215008.GA13516@brevard.conman.org> <20080808041900.GA3166@usap.gov> <200808080028.38306.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <489BD11A.6000003@jetnet.ab.ca> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Friday 08 August 2008 00:19, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >> Ah, the joys of an underwired older house. Ours was built around 1905 >> and was wired for electricity _after_ it was built. Not a grounded >> outlet in sight. :-/ >> > > There are bunches of those old outlets here. And two boxes of grounded > outlets in the basement. I told the landlord here I'd be glad to put 'em in, > but that I'd need to have some wire available because there was no way I was > going to put grounded outlets in if they weren't in fact grounded. I'm still > waiting... :-) > > Also check where you a get your power from, I knew a friend who lived in a old house with a AC line running from the neighbors home for some overhead lights. From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Aug 7 23:57:56 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 21:57:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: <489BC853.2050104@jbrain.com> References: <200808072346.m77NkThN025506@floodgap.com> <489BC853.2050104@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Aug 2008, Jim Brain wrote: >> > I remember doing the "pull the handset cord" thing, but I also remember the > splitter idea. > I never had a splitter, but I did get yelled at for flexing the retaining tab so much that it broke on 3 handset cords. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Aug 7 23:58:49 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 21:58:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: <20080808041958.GB3166@usap.gov> References: <4899FB11.2020205@gmail.com> <489B194A.4020101@gmail.com> <20080807200317.GB19776@usap.gov> <489B6961.6030402@verizon.net> <20080807220243.GC5643@usap.gov> <20080808041958.GB3166@usap.gov> Message-ID: >> I never had to speed dial MM that much. Pirates of Puget Sound >> however...that was a whole 'nother story. I recall a weekend where I >> redialed for 18 hours straight before I got on...*wistful sigh* > > I always found the best time to get onto the local BBSes was whenever > "Star Trek" was on TV - the connection stats page of the BBSes confirmed > that it was the lowest point between 17:00 and 02:00 every day. > PPS was pre-TNG Ethan. This was in the 84-86 timeframe that I was using PPS. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From jlobocki at gmail.com Thu Aug 7 14:58:51 2008 From: jlobocki at gmail.com (joe lobocki) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 14:58:51 -0500 Subject: my mac SE problems Message-ID: ok, so i got a mac SE off ebay, for a decent deal. now a logic board, floppy drive, CRT tube (I let the magic gas out of the first one) later, im back where i started. i write a boot disk with my powerbook 1400cs, pop it in. it boots up to the system software. i go to hd sc setup like i did when i used my external floppy to boot, and it shows nothing. the first time, i got to boot with an external floppy and the old logic board, and it showed the drive until i attempted to format it, which it wouldnt. after that, i couldnt see the drive again, and my boot disk kept getting wiped each use, and id have to reload it. so then, i replaced the board, the CRT, and the floppy, and now its still doing the same damn thing as it was before. is it possible i need new or replacement SCSI and floppy cables? its just being really weird..... From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Aug 7 17:00:41 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 18:00:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: LocalTalk In-Reply-To: <8726.209.163.133.242.1218042556.squirrel@webmail.io.com> References: <200808060556.m765uiXe016531@dewey.classiccmp.org> <8726.209.163.133.242.1218042556.squirrel@webmail.io.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 6 Aug 2008, Jeff Walther wrote: > >> Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 16:17:32 -0400 >> From: Sridhar Ayengar >> Subject: LocalTalk > >> >> Hi. I'm looking for a LocalTalk->Ethernet bridge and some LocalTalk >> cables. Anyone have any available? > > I don't have one available but the product names you are looking for include: > > AsantePrint > MicroAsanteprint > AsanteTalk > > in order from oldest to more recent. All three of those were by Asante. > There were similar products from Farallon and Dayna, but I do not remember > the specific product names. All of those will bridge from LocalTalk to > Ethernet, but I think they only bridge the AppleTalk protocols and not > TCP/IP. Additionally, they likely will not support Apple 2 flavored AppleTalk. Don't know if that's an issue or not. The only bridges that seem to work reliably for A2 networking are the Gatorbox and some firmware revisions of the FastPath 4. FastPath 5 boxes go through the motions, but cannot seem to keep sessions alive with the Apple IIGS on one end. For this A2 collector and enthusiast, it IS a big deal :-). Steve -- From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Aug 7 19:00:32 2008 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 20:00:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Computer collectors are no longer the dweebiest people in the In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200808080001.UAA28400@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> I don't collect in the hope that I'll be able to sell them later for >> more money. > No, Tony, I believe you are entirely unique in this regard as > everyone else subscribed here is just in it for the money. Hey! Speak for yourself! I've got enough money. I just need the chick magnets. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Fri Aug 8 03:03:58 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 08:03:58 +0000 Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: References: <489B194A.4020101@gmail.com> <20080807200317.GB19776@usap.gov> <489B6961.6030402@verizon.net> <20080807220243.GC5643@usap.gov> <20080808041958.GB3166@usap.gov> Message-ID: <20080808080358.GA14895@usap.gov> On Thu, Aug 07, 2008 at 09:58:49PM -0700, Gene Buckle wrote: > >I always found the best time to get onto the local BBSes was whenever > >"Star Trek" was on TV - the connection stats page of the BBSes confirmed > >that it was the lowest point between 17:00 and 02:00 every day. > > > PPS was pre-TNG Ethan. This was in the 84-86 timeframe that I was using > PPS. Yes... I was referring to about 1982-1983, when we had ST:TOS on at 18:00 five nights a week - best time to call. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 8-Aug-2008 at 08:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -59.8 F (-51.0 C) Windchill -97.6 F (-72.0 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 14.5 kts Grid 37 Barometer 682.4 mb (10538 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From billdeg at degnanco.com Fri Aug 8 07:59:53 2008 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 08:59:53 -0400 Subject: AT&T 3B1 Unix PC (WTD: a 67MB version power supply) In-Reply-To: <200808080620.m786K7GD054097@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20080808085507.02f52788@smtp.degnanco.com> While we're on this topic, I wanted to mention that I am looking for a 67MB version power supply. I have taken pictures of the two kinds of UNIX PC power supplies should anyone be interested: 67MB UNIX PC Power supply http://vintagecomputer.net/att/3B1/ATT_UNIX-PC_3B1_370429065_pwr_suppl.jpg Earlier "7300" UNIX PC Power Supply. http://vintagecomputer.net/att/7300/ATT_UNIX-PC_7300_pwr-suppl-b.jpg There seems to be some confusion about what you call the 67MB UNIX PC. Is it a 3B1 or a 7300? I also need an earlier 7300 motherboard. For either, please contact me directly. Thanks. Bill From keithvz at verizon.net Fri Aug 8 08:38:30 2008 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 09:38:30 -0400 Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: <02cd01c8f8d8$c6f37ed0$1802a8c0@JIMM> References: <507520.26074.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com><4899F65F.8000504@gmail.com><4899FB11.2020205@gmail.com> <489B194A.4020101@gmail.com><20080807200317.GB19776@usap.gov> <489B6961.6030402@verizon.net> <02cd01c8f8d8$c6f37ed0$1802a8c0@JIMM> Message-ID: <489C4C56.4010301@verizon.net> Jim MacKenzie wrote: > I picked myself up a Courier > V.Everything modem (which does 16,800 bps HST and 56K v.90, along with > all the rates below them). It is still the best modem ever produced > (and one of the largest :) ). > > Jim Absolutely. Great modems. And they were big. Like a foot long or something. :) I still have my Courier some place. Even the later Sportsters were pretty good, although I had two relays pop in them in one month. I think it was a phone system thing, and I added surge protection to the phone line after that happened -- never had a problem since. Keith From keithvz at verizon.net Fri Aug 8 08:56:26 2008 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 09:56:26 -0400 Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: <20080807220243.GC5643@usap.gov> References: <507520.26074.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4899F65F.8000504@gmail.com> <4899FB11.2020205@gmail.com> <489B194A.4020101@gmail.com> <20080807200317.GB19776@usap.gov> <489B6961.6030402@verizon.net> <20080807220243.GC5643@usap.gov> Message-ID: <489C508A.9090603@verizon.net> Ethan Dicks wrote: >> I am a product of the 80's -- got interested in computers and modems >> right when WarGames came out, along with Whiz Kids, if anyone knows that >> show. You'll never guess what I did during my teenage(and later) years? :) > > Heh... I pretty much kept my nose clean back in those days, but I had > older friends who were quite a bit more reckless. I don't know anyone > that ever built a blue-box, but some of the kids were big into wardialling. I always enjoyed wardialling. It was like pot luck, and you had no idea what numbers you'd wake up to the next day. Then *69 came, and then Caller ID, then the internet was much more interesting and widespread. Although Tymnet, Telenet/Sprintnet(not to be confused with telnet) were fun just to key in random addresses and see what happens. You could connect to all sorts of goofy stuff. The phreaking stuff was a lot of phun too. :) Anyone remember PC Pursuit? Basically a flat rate service (maybe it was $25/month?) you could dial up local access numbers(for telenet), and then connect to BBS's anywhere in the cities they supported for free. Back when long distance calls cost big $$$. > One story from those days - I wasn't there to verify that it actually > happened, but it sounds plausible - was that one kid had use of the > family station wagon when he learned to drive - he piled an Apple II > in the back, with monitor and all, and parked behind a K-Mart by the > garden center, because they had two important resources near each other... > a payphone and an outdoor 110V outlet... he parked as close to the phone > as he could, plugged the computer in and used an acoustic coupler to > do his wardialling from the tailgate. He was ready to unplug and go > if the authorities came sniffing around, but I don't think he ever got > noticed. It's quite plausible, and I know there were a lot of paranoid people around who went to such extremes to avoid doing stuff from home. Realistically, unless you were doing really bad stuff, you'd be unlikely to get in trouble --- the chance of the local police finding him in the parking lot (and then being pretty suspicious) was much greater than the threat from anywhere else. > > -ethan > Keith From keithvz at verizon.net Fri Aug 8 09:02:27 2008 From: keithvz at verizon.net (Keith M) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 10:02:27 -0400 Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: <835656.32486.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <835656.32486.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <489C51F3.4000305@verizon.net> Andrew Burton wrote: > Yeah, I know of Whiz Kids. Only seen part of the first episode as I haven't had time to watch the others yet. > About 9 episodes have been uploaded onto YouTube.com with each episode split into several parts. For what it's worth, there is a 7.5gb download from bittorrent with all 18 episodes which were recorded from VHS tape(from 1983). The quality is pretty shaky, with the audio being the worst part. While I'm not sure it matters, Universal (who currently own the rights) have absolutely no intention of bringing it out on DVD --- and would unlikely enforce any copyright claims associated. I spoke recently with the co-producer of the show, and pushes to have it released on DVD have resulted in not so much of a return phone call saying, "No." Keith From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Aug 8 09:24:11 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 09:24:11 -0500 Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: <20080807194635.F49564@shell.lmi.net> References: <507520.26074.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4899F65F.8000504@gmail.com> <4899FB11.2020205@gmail.com> <489B194A.4020101@gmail.com> <20080807200317.GB19776@usap.gov> <489B6961.6030402@verizon.net> <489B6C19.9040807@brouhaha.com> <20080807220822.GD5643@usap.gov> <20080807194635.F49564@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <489C570B.4070900@gmail.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > Ah, yes. > Remember Carterphone V Western Electric? > > > > On Thu, 7 Aug 2008, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> And we had to walk to school. Uphill. Both ways. >> Amen. (oh... and in Ohio, we added "in the snow"...) > > barefoot. You forgot to mention the 300lbs of school books carried on your back, too. From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Aug 8 09:49:53 2008 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 10:49:53 -0400 Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: <489C570B.4070900@gmail.com> References: <507520.26074.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4899F65F.8000504@gmail.com> <4899FB11.2020205@gmail.com> <489B194A.4020101@gmail.com> <20080807200317.GB19776@usap.gov> <489B6961.6030402@verizon.net> <489B6C19.9040807@brouhaha.com> <20080807220822.GD5643@usap.gov> <20080807194635.F49564@shell.lmi.net> <489C570B.4070900@gmail.com> Message-ID: <24776.1218206993@mini> Jules Richardson wrote: >Fred Cisin wrote: >> Ah, yes. >> Remember Carterphone V Western Electric? >> >> >> >> On Thu, 7 Aug 2008, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>>> And we had to walk to school. Uphill. Both ways. >>> Amen. (oh... and in Ohio, we added "in the snow"...) >> >> barefoot. > >You forgot to mention the 300lbs of school books carried on your back, too. I just to cart an AJ 300 baud modem and full sized printing terminal around in my VW bus (all to call into call/370, back in the day) does that count ? :-) I would have killed for a silent 700. That would make been much easier to move around. Thankfully I later discovered S100 machines. -brad From wgungfu at uwm.edu Fri Aug 8 10:20:07 2008 From: wgungfu at uwm.edu (wgungfu at uwm.edu) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 10:20:07 -0500 Subject: MIT based on rip off NES and not Apple II In-Reply-To: <51ea77730808062131t6e9f88a3x71b09ac91889045b@mail.gmail.com> References: <489A3DEE.2040901@srv.net> <113131.20508.qm@web56211.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <51ea77730808062131t6e9f88a3x71b09ac91889045b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <1218208807.489c6427655fb@panthermail.uwm.edu> Remember that the Japanese implementation (Famicom) was actually promoted as a gaming computer in its time (Famicom is short for Family Computer). Besides a keyboard and BASIC, there was also a cassette recorder, disk drive, and modem available. (Here's some links for those that have never seen them): http://flickr.com/photos/mims/72177380/in/set-1366263/ http://www.gamersgraveyard.com/repository/nes/peripherals/fc_keyboard.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Famicom_Network_System.jpg http://www.consoledatabase.com/consoleinfo/nintendofamicomdisksystem/index.html The US version (the NES) came close to being done more like a computer, but marketing challenges moved it in a different direction. Here's a pic of what it almost was: http://gadgets.boingboing.net/gimages/advanced_1.jpg Keep in mind that the NOAC (Nintendo On a Chip) is probably the most duplicated and longest running single chip console implementation, making it the most easily accessible design and money wise. Marty From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 8 10:26:39 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 08:26:39 -0700 Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: <24776.1218206993@mini> References: <507520.26074.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com>, <489C570B.4070900@gmail.com> , <24776.1218206993@mini> Message-ID: <489C033F.10153.731D3@cclist.sydex.com> Fred Cisin wrote: > Ah, yes. > Remember Carterphone V Western Electric? Well, yes--enough to remember that it was "Carterfone". Cheers, Chuck From drb at msu.edu Fri Aug 8 11:13:57 2008 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 12:13:57 -0400 Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: (Your message of Thu, 07 Aug 2008 21:06:08 PDT.) <489B63C0.21120.11FBEBEC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <489B63C0.21120.11FBEBEC@cclist.sydex.com> <507520.26074.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com>, <489B1458.10572.10C5C113@cclist.sydex.com>, <200808072209.05159.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200808081613.m78GDvjh032637@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > But the Couriers just kept on working until I closed down the BBS (still > have the hard disk with NT 4.0 and Auntie on it--it might be fun to boot > it to see what the message log has in it). I worked for a real estate software house in the mid-late 80s. We were doing online photos of listed properties starting in the '85-'86 timeframe. By modern standards the images were tiny, maybe 160x100 and 4-bit greyscale, but at 2400 baud, the 15 kBytes would have been a bit painful. We were out at the bleeding edge of higher-speed dialup from the beginning of the product. Display was accomplished by a "dumb" board we added to the Esprit terminals. It was a marble machine -- looked for the correct control code (just one character, sigh) then clocked in the next 15 k bytes. It could overlay either one quarter of the screen or the whole screen with the image, since it was inserted into the video circuit as well as the serial interface. Once it started loading an image, it ate all bytes coming in until it had counted far enough, so errors or spurious modem noise was very troublesome. The first installation used Motorola/UDS 208A/B modems, 4800 baud half duplex units that could be strapped for two wire or four wire operation. We used the EC100 error-corrector units with them. After that first site, we went through a whole series of v.29 9600 baud modems: Fastcomm, Data Race, eventually Multi-Tech when they finished theirs. v.29 was half-duplex on the wire, so we called these devices "ping pong" modems. (There were other nicknames: Fastbroke, Rat Race, Multi-wreck, etc.) We looked at other (better) things too, but didn't sell them because they were too expensive. For a while, we had two Telebit Trailblazers, one in answer mode in the computer room, and the other connected to my SB-180 at home (_really_ nice!). We looked at Couriers too. But the v.32 modems won, so it was Multi-Techs, Practical (Pregnant) Peripherals, etc. The host computers were Prime minis, which were notorious for crappy handshaking, so we spent lots of time fine tuning buffer sizes and modem setups. We had the Data Race folks on site in South Bend for a couple of days at one point figuring out why stuff was getting lost (hysteresis was too large for the modem's buffer). After I left the company, a buddy called me for troubleshooting help. Could I call x-and-such number and see how fast I could connect. My personal Courier locked at max rate. Drove him nuts, as the units they were selling, being cheap junk, couldn't do it. Couriers rocked. Still do, if you still do dialup. De From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Aug 8 11:20:59 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 11:20:59 -0500 Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: <20080808041900.GA3166@usap.gov> References: <20080807215008.GA13516@brevard.conman.org> <20080808041900.GA3166@usap.gov> Message-ID: <489C726B.20909@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > Ah, the joys of an underwired older house. Ours was built around 1905 > and was wired for electricity _after_ it was built. Not a grounded > outlet in sight. :-/ I don't think I've yet been inside a single house on US soil that has sane wiring. They all seem rather random in implementation (and to heck with whatever local or national codes might say! :-) Needless to say, I'll be rewiring the building that the vintage machines are all going in (when I get chance to actually ship them over here) cheers Jules From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Fri Aug 8 11:30:08 2008 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 09:30:08 -0700 Subject: LocalTalk In-Reply-To: References: <200808060556.m765uiXe016531@dewey.classiccmp.org> <8726.209.163.133.242.1218042556.squirrel@webmail.io.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 7, 2008 at 3:00 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > Additionally, they likely will not support Apple 2 flavored AppleTalk. I use an off brand box called the Ether*Write (whatever company made it was later bought by Farralon). My Apple IIgs's AppleTalk goes through fine, but the IIgs hangs if there are any machines with large shares (>2GB or so) on the network. I've been thinking about zoning it off, but I know nothing about how to set up AppleTalk zones. Eric From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Fri Aug 8 11:30:08 2008 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 09:30:08 -0700 Subject: LocalTalk In-Reply-To: References: <200808060556.m765uiXe016531@dewey.classiccmp.org> <8726.209.163.133.242.1218042556.squirrel@webmail.io.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 7, 2008 at 3:00 PM, Steven Hirsch wrote: > Additionally, they likely will not support Apple 2 flavored AppleTalk. I use an off brand box called the Ether*Write (whatever company made it was later bought by Farralon). My Apple IIgs's AppleTalk goes through fine, but the IIgs hangs if there are any machines with large shares (>2GB or so) on the network. I've been thinking about zoning it off, but I know nothing about how to set up AppleTalk zones. Eric From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 8 11:51:53 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 09:51:53 -0700 Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: <489C726B.20909@gmail.com> References: <20080807215008.GA13516@brevard.conman.org>, <20080808041900.GA3166@usap.gov>, <489C726B.20909@gmail.com> Message-ID: <489C1739.17408.553B93@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Aug 2008 at 11:20, Jules Richardson wrote: > I don't think I've yet been inside a single house on US soil that has > sane wiring. They all seem rather random in implementation (and to > heck with whatever local or national codes might say! :-) You can probably lay a good part of the blame on local and national codes. My parents' then-new house, built in the 1950s was constructed when the local electrical code called for thinwall conduit as the residential wiring type. If you've ever worked with the stuff, you know that you need to spend some time on layout-- there's not a lot of slop and anything other than a simple bend takes time. Generally, the outlets in a room were done octopus-style, with an octagonal junction box or two located somewhere in the ceiling with the legs terminating in wall outlet boxes. Great stuff and probably pretty fire-resistant. Holes are drilled for the most part through top and bottom plates, rather than wall studs. I was observing one of the McMansions in my area being wired not too long ago. Basically, a team comes in with big spools of 12 and 14 gauge Romex, a big box of staples and a Hole-hawg or two and get to drilling away, wherever it's convenient; sort of stream-of- consciousness wiring. Before the sheetrock and insulation goes on, it looks like hell. My own house has its share of "stream of consciousness" wiring, but it has a utilities plenum running the length of the building in the basement where all of the plumbing, heavy-gauge wiring and large heating ducts are run. So I'm better off than most. Cheers, Chuck From brain at jbrain.com Fri Aug 8 12:03:27 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 12:03:27 -0500 Subject: Forgotten PC History Message-ID: <489C7C5F.7000008@jbrain.com> I don't mean to repost, but I had not seen this posted as yet: http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9111341&source=NLT_AM&nlid=1 -- Jim Brain, Brain Innovations (X) brain at jbrain.com Dabbling in WWW, Embedded Systems, Old CBM computers, and Good Times! Home: http://www.jbrain.com From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 8 12:09:25 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 10:09:25 -0700 Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: <200808081613.m78GDvjh032637@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <489B63C0.21120.11FBEBEC@cclist.sydex.com>, <200808081613.m78GDvjh032637@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <489C1B55.30399.654A91@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Aug 2008 at 12:13, Dennis Boone wrote: > For a while, we had two Telebit Trailblazers, one in answer mode in the > computer room, and the other connected to my SB-180 at home (_really_ > nice!). We looked at Couriers too. But the v.32 modems won, so it was > Multi-Techs, Practical (Pregnant) Peripherals, etc. The Trailblazers at one point were *the* modem to have if you were doing UUCP-type transfers between systems. Since it used a proprietary protocol, you had to go Telebit-to-Telebit. I had friends at Telebit, and vaguely remember that they used multiple carrier frequencies, but not too much other than that. During the early 1970s, ISTR that one of the better modems was the Milgo 4400--a big rack-mount job that could get 2400 bps over voice- grade lines (except in Los Gatos, where 300 bps was considered to be pretty good). Does anyone still have one of these beasts? The military used them quite a bit. Cheers, Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Fri Aug 8 12:55:06 2008 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 18:55:06 +0100 Subject: IBM Model M keyboard spares In-Reply-To: <20080807124217.I34639@shell.lmi.net> References: <575131af0808061032j2d59a5e0id53f06dbaf1b7626@mail.gmail.com> <4899F73F.3010608@gmail.com> <575131af0808070431p27493743y63a5291b00b22a30@mail.gmail.com> <20080807124217.I34639@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <575131af0808081055v7f892a48nab5e0b80952459e2@mail.gmail.com> 2008/8/7 Fred Cisin : > On Thu, 7 Aug 2008, Liam Proven wrote: > >> 2008/8/6 Sridhar Ayengar : >> > Liam Proven wrote: >> >> >> >> /The/ classic PC keyboard, IMHO. >> > >> > The Model M came out *waay* after the PC. The 84-key is the one for the PC. >> > I don't think the Model M is even compatible with the PC. >> > >> > Peace... Sridhar >> >> Oh, come on, Sridhar, don't be so anally retentive or obsessive! >> >> I didn't say "the classic IBM model 5250 PC-XT keyboard" or anything >> of the kind. I said PC. "PC" is a generic term, which to hundreds of >> millions around the world just means a Personal Computer. In fact the >> PC to which the model M I am typing on right now is attached to is, as >> it happens, an Apple 20" 2GH PowerPC G5 iMac. > > It is easy to parse what you said to be referring to "classic PC". Hmmm. I'd have said "the keyboard of the classic PC" if that's what I'd meant. Only of course a Model M is not the keyboard of the PC-XT, it's a much later model; a Model M won't work with a PC-XT and a PC-XT keyboard won't work with anything much newer. And in any case, the original PC keyboard is not a much loved classic with lots of fan sites, which the Model M is. So to be honest I don't think it was an ambiguous statement at all! > Would an Apple 20" 2GH PowerPC G5 iMac be considered a "classic PC"? Eh? That never even entered into it. It's a form of PC, though. I reckon the original iMac G3 is a classic, though, already. > In THIS mob, "classic PC" means 5150. But I wasn't talking about any kind of classic PC. The last noun in the sentence was "keyboard" and that's what the adjective "classic" was applied to. The "PC" merely clarified what kind of keyboard. > Even those who avoid the IBM products would be considered "5150" by those > familiar with police radio codes. I know nothing about police radio codes and have no interest in them whatsoever. I suspect that the British police have different ones, anyway. I'm not buying this odd implicit argument that it was an unclear or ambiguous phrase, in case that wasn't obvious. :-) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Fri Aug 8 12:58:19 2008 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 18:58:19 +0100 Subject: IBM Model M keyboard spares In-Reply-To: <489B1CE6.5090902@gmail.com> References: <575131af0808061032j2d59a5e0id53f06dbaf1b7626@mail.gmail.com> <4899F73F.3010608@gmail.com> <575131af0808070431p27493743y63a5291b00b22a30@mail.gmail.com> <489B1CE6.5090902@gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0808081058w36e20a63w7178c2b27e0c76c9@mail.gmail.com> 2008/8/7 Sridhar Ayengar : > Liam Proven wrote: >> >> 2008/8/6 Sridhar Ayengar : >>> >>> Liam Proven wrote: >>>> >>>> /The/ classic PC keyboard, IMHO. >>> >>> The Model M came out *waay* after the PC. The 84-key is the one for the >>> PC. >>> I don't think the Model M is even compatible with the PC. >> >> Oh, come on, Sridhar, don't be so anally retentive or obsessive! >> >> I didn't say "the classic IBM model 5250 PC-XT keyboard" or anything > > You don't want obsessive? Too bad! 8-) > > The 5250 is an IBM minicomputer terminal, not an XT keyboard! > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_5250 Ah. Now that *was* my bad. Mea culpa. I should have known that. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Aug 8 13:16:49 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 13:16:49 -0500 Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: <489C1B55.30399.654A91@cclist.sydex.com> References: <489B63C0.21120.11FBEBEC@cclist.sydex.com>, <200808081613.m78GDvjh032637@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <489C1B55.30399.654A91@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <489C8D91.3080008@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8 Aug 2008 at 12:13, Dennis Boone wrote: > >> For a while, we had two Telebit Trailblazers, one in answer mode in the >> computer room, and the other connected to my SB-180 at home (_really_ >> nice!). We looked at Couriers too. But the v.32 modems won, so it was >> Multi-Techs, Practical (Pregnant) Peripherals, etc. > > The Trailblazers at one point were *the* modem to have if you were > doing UUCP-type transfers between systems. Weren't they something 'odd', like 23K? I know I acquired one amongst a pile of stuff once, but of course without a remote one to talk to, it wasn't much use for anything. cheers Jules From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Aug 8 13:22:47 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 12:22:47 -0600 Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: <489C570B.4070900@gmail.com> References: <507520.26074.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4899F65F.8000504@gmail.com> <4899FB11.2020205@gmail.com> <489B194A.4020101@gmail.com> <20080807200317.GB19776@usap.gov> <489B6961.6030402@verizon.net> <489B6C19.9040807@brouhaha.com> <20080807220822.GD5643@usap.gov> <20080807194635.F49564@shell.lmi.net> <489C570B.4070900@gmail.com> Message-ID: <489C8EF7.8070606@jetnet.ab.ca> Jules Richardson wrote: > You forgot to mention the 300lbs of school books carried on your back, > too. I always thought you left school before you could read to .... From billdeg at degnanco.com Fri Aug 8 13:58:12 2008 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 14:58:12 -0400 Subject: vintagecomputer.net updated Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20080808145750.00c31dd0@smtp.degnanco.com> http://vintagecomputer.net/ This REV is titled "From Giant Brains to Hobby Computers - 1957 to 1977" "Giant Brains" from Radio & Television News Jan 1957 - Including pictures of UNIVAC, IBM 650, Mark I "An Informal History of the Hobby Computer Market" from the Jan-Feb premier issue of Personal Computing Recent project work and pictures -Bill From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Aug 8 13:59:46 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 11:59:46 -0700 Subject: AT&T 3B1 Unix PC (WTD: a 67MB version power supply) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20080808085507.02f52788@smtp.degnanco.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20080808085507.02f52788@smtp.degnanco.com> Message-ID: <489C97A2.3090404@brouhaha.com> B. Degnan wrote: > 67MB UNIX PC Power supply 3B1 power supply, used whether the 3B1 had the 40MB or 67MB drive > There seems to be some confusion about what you call the 67MB UNIX PC. > Is it a 3B1 or a 7300? 3B1. If the case has a hump, it's a 3B1. Without, it's a 7300. > I also need an earlier 7300 motherboard. Why? The same motherboards will work in the 7300 or 3B1. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Aug 8 14:13:37 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 14:13:37 -0500 Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: <489C1739.17408.553B93@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20080807215008.GA13516@brevard.conman.org>, <20080808041900.GA3166@usap.gov>, <489C726B.20909@gmail.com> <489C1739.17408.553B93@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <489C9AE1.70209@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > My own house has its share of "stream of consciousness" wiring, but > it has a utilities plenum running the length of the building in the > basement where all of the plumbing, heavy-gauge wiring and large > heating ducts are run. So I'm better off than most. Heh, no such luck here. The house has been semi-rewired in recent past and it's a total rats' nest down in the basement. As the place was once a working farm, the service panels look more like something befitting a factory - breakers and wires aplenty! It's on the list to trace it all out sometime so that when things do go wrong fault-finding will be a lot easier. The various out-buildings are a real mix of above-ground and below-ground power feeds, original 1940's wiring and fuseboxes, more modern cabling, and "home-made" stuff using any old fixtures and power cord. There's even a pair of enormous 150W light bulbs in the garage that look like they might have been hanging on since the '50s... For the building where the vintage computers will live, I'm thinking I'll put a new cable run out to there from the house, fit a new breaker unit, and give it both 120V and 240V. Cat-5 for network, and RS-232 just for the heck of it - I'm sure I'll find a use for it. Oh, I found an ancient fusebox behind a panel in one of the bathrooms (really) a few weeks ago - it's got power, but no amount of investigation has yet revealed what it's there for :-) cheers Jules From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Aug 8 14:17:36 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 12:17:36 -0700 Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: <489C1B55.30399.654A91@cclist.sydex.com> References: <489B63C0.21120.11FBEBEC@cclist.sydex.com>, <200808081613.m78GDvjh032637@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <489C1B55.30399.654A91@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <489C9BD0.3080800@brouhaha.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > The Trailblazers at one point were *the* modem to have if you were > doing UUCP-type transfers between systems. Since it used a > proprietary protocol, you had to go Telebit-to-Telebit. I had > friends at Telebit, and vaguely remember that they used multiple > carrier frequencies, but not too much other than that. Although the Trailblazer transferred about 14 to 16 Kbps uncompressed, it was a 7 baud modem! [*] It used slightly fewer than 512 carriers, each transmitting at a very low rate. The system was referred to as Packetized Ensemble Protocole (PEP), although technically that described the patented method of distributing the data across the carriers rather than the actual modulation. It was the predecessor of DMT (Discrete Multi Tone) modulation used on most ADSL loops, and OFDM (Orthogonal Frequency Domain Multiplexing) used by 802.11a, .11g, .11n, and many other high-bandwidth wireless systems. At one time Telebit management thought they might be able to get royalties on the PEP patent from the companies making ADSL equipment, but AFAIK that never happened. Since PEP was half-duplex, with only a very slow reverse channel, it had to do line turnarounds to handle full-duplex traffic. UUCP g protocol had acknowledgement frames that were large enough to cause a line turnaround, which would dramatically lower the throughput for an otherwise unidirectional transfer. Telebit put special "spoofing" for the UUCP g protocol into the model, so that it could avoid line turnarounds while still having end-to-end acknowledgements. That made it a great modem for UUCP. When the CCITT (now ITU-T) was working on the next high-speed PSTN modem standard beyond V.32, referred to as V.fast while in development, Telebit proposed a full-duplex version of PEP, but it was not ultimately chosen to be the V.34 standard. I worked at Telebit from 1991 to 1995, but mostly on the NetBlazer router products rather than modems. From time to time the lab had to be cleaned up, and one time my manager gave me an enormous wire-wrapped board (perhaps 24" by 30") which he couldn't bear to see thrown away. He said it was the first PEP modem prototype, and he knew that I was interested in computer history, so he wanted me to take it. A few years ago I met Paul Baran, founder of Telebit (and inventor of packet switching), and he authenticated it. I donated it to the Computer History Museum. Eric [*] A "baud" is a symbol (signal change) per second, not a bit per second. They are equal only if each symbol conveys a single bit. However, all dialup modems at 2400 bps or higher, and full-duplex dialup modems at 1200 bps, use modulations with multiple bits per symbol. For instance, V.32 9600 bps modulation is actually 2400 baud with four bits per symbol. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Aug 8 14:41:18 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 14:41:18 -0500 Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: <489C8D91.3080008@gmail.com> References: <489B63C0.21120.11FBEBEC@cclist.sydex.com>, <200808081613.m78GDvjh032637@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <489C1B55.30399.654A91@cclist.sydex.com> <489C8D91.3080008@gmail.com> Message-ID: <489CA15E.4060600@gmail.com> Jules Richardson wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 8 Aug 2008 at 12:13, Dennis Boone wrote: >> >>> For a while, we had two Telebit Trailblazers, one in answer mode in the > > Weren't they something 'odd', like 23K? Hmm, I'm having a brain fart and mixing Trailblazer up with Worldblazer, it seems! From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 8 14:47:25 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 12:47:25 -0700 Subject: Forgotten PC History In-Reply-To: <489C7C5F.7000008@jbrain.com> References: <489C7C5F.7000008@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <489C405D.32618.F5F0CE@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Aug 2008 at 12:03, Jim Brain wrote: > I don't mean to repost, but I had not seen this posted as yet: > > http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9111341&source=NLT_AM&nlid=1 Doesn't the "home computer" (not the Honeywell "kitchen computer") go back at least as far as 1968? Wasn't there an outfit that marketed a box with two tape drives and a display in it for home use? Not a computer, per se, but an information storage and retrieval device. A name like "Viacon"? My brain has too many dustbunnies to remember much more, but I recall reading about it a long time ago. Perhaps one of the digital archaeologists on the list remembers. Cheers, Chuck From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Aug 8 15:19:42 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 16:19:42 -0400 Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: <489C9AE1.70209@gmail.com> References: <20080807215008.GA13516@brevard.conman.org> <489C1739.17408.553B93@cclist.sydex.com> <489C9AE1.70209@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200808081619.42237.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 08 August 2008, Jules Richardson wrote: > For the building where the vintage computers will live, I'm thinking > I'll put a new cable run out to there from the house, fit a new > breaker unit, and give it both 120V and 240V. You're not commited to retrocomputing, unless you have 3 phase power available. :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Aug 8 15:30:10 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 16:30:10 -0400 Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: <200808081619.42237.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <20080807215008.GA13516@brevard.conman.org> <489C1739.17408.553B93@cclist.sydex.com> <489C9AE1.70209@gmail.com> <200808081619.42237.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <489CACD2.7080205@gmail.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Friday 08 August 2008, Jules Richardson wrote: >> For the building where the vintage computers will live, I'm thinking >> I'll put a new cable run out to there from the house, fit a new >> breaker unit, and give it both 120V and 240V. > > You're not commited to retrocomputing, unless you have 3 phase power > available. :) You're not truly committed unless you have a 480V three-phase service. Peace... Sridhar From arcarlini at iee.org Fri Aug 8 15:34:59 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 21:34:59 +0100 Subject: IC collecting In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Tony Duell wrote: > But I personally have no desire to have a 'stamp collection' of > supposedly > rare ICs sitting in conductive foam. Which is just as well, as you'd probably ahev to worry about the foam going "off" and corroding the chip legs. Or so I read every now and then ... Luckily none of my foam is that old yet. Antonio From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Aug 8 15:38:51 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 15:38:51 -0500 Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: <200808081619.42237.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <20080807215008.GA13516@brevard.conman.org> <489C1739.17408.553B93@cclist.sydex.com> <489C9AE1.70209@gmail.com> <200808081619.42237.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <489CAEDB.9080808@gmail.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Friday 08 August 2008, Jules Richardson wrote: >> For the building where the vintage computers will live, I'm thinking >> I'll put a new cable run out to there from the house, fit a new >> breaker unit, and give it both 120V and 240V. > > You're not commited to retrocomputing, unless you have 3 phase power > available. :) Ha ha! We've actually got fair-sized barn in need of some TLC; once that's done it'll be crying out to have a big system put into it... the problem is going to be finding one! (consider that a 'want' - if anyone in MN or just over the border into Canada has a large system that they're going to be sick of in a year or two... ;) cheers Jules From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Aug 8 16:16:06 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 14:16:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: <489CACD2.7080205@gmail.com> References: <20080807215008.GA13516@brevard.conman.org> <489C1739.17408.553B93@cclist.sydex.com> <489C9AE1.70209@gmail.com> <200808081619.42237.pat@computer-refuge.org> <489CACD2.7080205@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Aug 2008, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> On Friday 08 August 2008, Jules Richardson wrote: >>> For the building where the vintage computers will live, I'm thinking >>> I'll put a new cable run out to there from the house, fit a new >>> breaker unit, and give it both 120V and 240V. >> >> You're not commited to retrocomputing, unless you have 3 phase power >> available. :) > > You're not truly committed unless you have a 480V three-phase service. > At this point the more pertinent question should be not "You're not truely" but "You probably should be". :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From RichA at vulcan.com Fri Aug 8 16:20:10 2008 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 14:20:10 -0700 Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Bill Sudbrink Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 8:52 PM > 11) I no longer remember how to start up Zork or some of the > other programs... anyone feel free to provide details I'm > missing. You were advised to use "ZORK^K" rather than ":ZORK". The latter would always start a new Zork process, which was unfriendly given the limited number of processes available under ITS; the former would start a Zork process if none already existed, otherwise connecting you to a shared memory image. Rich Alderson RichA at vulcan.com Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project (206) 342-2239 Vulcan, Inc., 505 5th Avenue S, Seattle, WA 98104 (206) 465-2916 cell From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 8 16:46:22 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 14:46:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: <489C570B.4070900@gmail.com> References: <507520.26074.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <4899F65F.8000504@gmail.com> <4899FB11.2020205@gmail.com> <489B194A.4020101@gmail.com> <20080807200317.GB19776@usap.gov> <489B6961.6030402@verizon.net> <489B6C19.9040807@brouhaha.com> <20080807220822.GD5643@usap.gov> <20080807194635.F49564@shell.lmi.net> <489C570B.4070900@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080808144515.B86800@shell.lmi.net> > >>> And we had to walk to school. Uphill. Both ways. > >> Amen. (oh... and in Ohio, we added "in the snow"...) > > > > barefoot. > > You forgot to mention the 300lbs of school books carried on your back, too. You had BOOKS?? From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 8 17:01:39 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 15:01:39 -0700 Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: <20080808144515.B86800@shell.lmi.net> References: <507520.26074.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com>, <489C570B.4070900@gmail.com>, <20080808144515.B86800@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <489C5FD3.8772.170D013@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Aug 2008 at 14:46, Fred Cisin wrote: > > >>> And we had to walk to school. Uphill. Both ways. > > >> Amen. (oh... and in Ohio, we added "in the snow"...) > > > > > > barefoot. > > > > You forgot to mention the 300lbs of school books carried on your back, too. > > > You had BOOKS?? We took a knife along; we had to catch and kill our own breakfast too. Things tasted better after they invented fire during my sophomore year. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 8 17:06:20 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 15:06:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM Model M keyboard spares In-Reply-To: <575131af0808081055v7f892a48nab5e0b80952459e2@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0808061032j2d59a5e0id53f06dbaf1b7626@mail.gmail.com> <4899F73F.3010608@gmail.com> <575131af0808070431p27493743y63a5291b00b22a30@mail.gmail.com> <20080807124217.I34639@shell.lmi.net> <575131af0808081055v7f892a48nab5e0b80952459e2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20080808145845.C86800@shell.lmi.net> > >> >> /The/ classic PC keyboard, IMHO. > > It is easy to parse what you said to be referring to "classic PC". > Hmmm. I'd have said "the keyboard of the classic PC" if that's what > I'd meant. Two peoples divided by a common language. On this side of the pond, we are loose with the syntax, and when we mean "the keyboard of the classic PC", we WILL say "the classic PC keyboard". Which, incidentally is not an XT, it is a 5150. > Only of course a Model M is not the keyboard of the PC-XT, > it's a much later model; a Model M won't work with a PC-XT and a PC-XT > keyboard won't work with anything much newer. And in any case, the > original PC keyboard is not a much loved classic with lots of fan > sites, which the Model M is. Which is one more reason that I prefer the original 83 key keyboards. > So to be honest I don't think it was an ambiguous statement at all! only to those of us who don't have our language based on the king. > > Even those who avoid the IBM products would be considered "5150" by those > > familiar with police radio codes. > I know nothing about police radio codes and have no interest in them > whatsoever. I suspect that the British police have different ones, > anyway. Around here (California), "5150" refers to a person with severe mental issues who may be a danger to themselves or others. > I'm not buying this odd implicit argument that it was an unclear or > ambiguous phrase, in case that wasn't obvious. :-) only in translation to American "English". From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Aug 8 17:15:22 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 16:15:22 -0600 Subject: Ot again In-Reply-To: <489C5FD3.8772.170D013@cclist.sydex.com> References: <507520.26074.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com>, <489C570B.4070900@gmail.com>, <20080808144515.B86800@shell.lmi.net> <489C5FD3.8772.170D013@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <489CC57A.1020707@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > We took a knife along; we had to catch and kill our own breakfast > too. Things tasted better after they invented fire during my > sophomore year. > > I wonder when clothing was invented ... before or after fire? > Cheers, > Chuck > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 8 17:24:43 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 15:24:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ot again In-Reply-To: <489CC57A.1020707@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <507520.26074.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com>, <489C570B.4070900@gmail.com>, <20080808144515.B86800@shell.lmi.net> <489C5FD3.8772.170D013@cclist.sydex.com> <489CC57A.1020707@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20080808152406.I86800@shell.lmi.net> > > We took a knife along; we had to catch and kill our own breakfast > > too. Things tasted better after they invented fire during my > > sophomore year. > > > I wonder when clothing was invented ... before or after fire? when did they start using lithium batteries? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Aug 8 18:45:32 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 17:45:32 -0600 Subject: Ot again In-Reply-To: <20080808152406.I86800@shell.lmi.net> References: <507520.26074.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com>, <489C570B.4070900@gmail.com>, <20080808144515.B86800@shell.lmi.net> <489C5FD3.8772.170D013@cclist.sydex.com> <489CC57A.1020707@jetnet.ab.ca> <20080808152406.I86800@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <489CDA9C.4040501@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: > when did they start using lithium batteries? > I suspect when digital watches came out. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Aug 8 18:59:47 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 16:59:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ot again In-Reply-To: <489CDA9C.4040501@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <507520.26074.qm@web56201.mail.re3.yahoo.com>, <489C570B.4070900@gmail.com>, <20080808144515.B86800@shell.lmi.net> <489C5FD3.8772.170D013@cclist.sydex.com> <489CC57A.1020707@jetnet.ab.ca> <20080808152406.I86800@shell.lmi.net> <489CDA9C.4040501@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20080808165828.A86800@shell.lmi.net> > > when did they start using lithium batteries? > > > I suspect when digital watches came out. So, . . . the discovery of fire dates back to the Northstar Horizon power supply, not just to laptop batteries? From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Aug 8 20:21:55 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 21:21:55 -0400 Subject: Forgotten PC History In-Reply-To: <489C7C5F.7000008@jbrain.com> References: <489C7C5F.7000008@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <200808082121.55813.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 08 August 2008 13:03, Jim Brain wrote: > I don't mean to repost, but I had not seen this posted as yet: > > http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&art >icleId=9111341&source=NLT_AM&nlid=1 An interesting read. One thing that jumped out at me when I got to the second page of the article was how wide that screen was compared to its height. Do you know offhand what the screen was, in terms of characters? The other thing that I took some notice of was mention of an 18-pin chip package as "recently developed" at one point in the story, and later on the mention of the 40-pin package as being then available. When I first started to take notice of chips at all, most of them were 14 or 16 pins, and those were mostly op amps. This was around 1970, I think. And it was only later on that I started seeing different sizes, but I never really knew all that much about which sizes came out when, or how limiting some of the earlier package restrictions were. What was up with that, anyway? Why were the earlier chips so limited in terms of packaging? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Aug 8 20:25:35 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 21:25:35 -0400 Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: <489C1B55.30399.654A91@cclist.sydex.com> References: <489B63C0.21120.11FBEBEC@cclist.sydex.com> <200808081613.m78GDvjh032637@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <489C1B55.30399.654A91@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200808082125.35747.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 08 August 2008 13:09, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The Trailblazers at one point were *the* modem to have if you were > doing UUCP-type transfers between systems. Since it used a > proprietary protocol, you had to go Telebit-to-Telebit. I had > friends at Telebit, and vaguely remember that they used multiple > carrier frequencies, but not too much other than that. I never knew much about those, but they sure did look to be pretty nifty from what I could see on the outside. :-) I know that one system that I called occasionally back when I was calling bunches of them was in fact a box where a guy was running unix at home. And he eventually gave me a login on that box, and tried to nudge me in the direction of running it, eventually. At a later point in time I did end up doing UUCP-type transfers with his system, when I was running a fidonet-internet gateway of sorts. Just email, but it was nice to have, excepting all those clueless folks that even then were doing email in HTML... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Aug 8 20:44:22 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 18:44:22 -0700 Subject: Forgotten PC History In-Reply-To: <200808082121.55813.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <489C7C5F.7000008@jbrain.com> <200808082121.55813.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <489CF676.7050404@brouhaha.com> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > The other thing that I took some notice of was mention of an 18-pin chip > package as "recently developed" at one point in the story, and later on the > mention of the 40-pin package as being then available. The 18 pin-per-package limit claims regarding the 4004 and 8008 have been around for a long time, and I think they came from interviews with Intel's founders and/or early employees, but I think they're factually incorrect, at least as commonly stated. The 24-pin DIP was very well established by 1968, and was already used by TI at that time. There were certainly higher pin-count packages at that time also. I'm not sure about the 40-pin DIP, but in 1969 Fairchild was shipping at least one memory chip in a 36-pin DIP, though that particular package never became popular. Possibly whatever specific company Intel was contracting with to supply lead frames and ceramic packages didn't yet offer higher pin count packages, but they obviously were available from some vendors since other semiconductor companies like Fairchild and TI were using them. Eric From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Aug 8 20:51:11 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 21:51:11 -0400 Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: <200808081619.42237.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <20080807215008.GA13516@brevard.conman.org> <489C9AE1.70209@gmail.com> <200808081619.42237.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <200808082151.12286.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 08 August 2008 16:19, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Friday 08 August 2008, Jules Richardson wrote: > > For the building where the vintage computers will live, I'm thinking > > I'll put a new cable run out to there from the house, fit a new > > breaker unit, and give it both 120V and 240V. > > You're not commited to retrocomputing, unless you have 3 phase power > available. :) Hehe. The look that got me when I relayed that sentiment just now was priceless... :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Aug 8 20:58:13 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 21:58:13 -0400 Subject: Forgotten PC History In-Reply-To: <489CF676.7050404@brouhaha.com> References: <489C7C5F.7000008@jbrain.com> <200808082121.55813.rtellason@verizon.net> <489CF676.7050404@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <200808082158.13312.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 08 August 2008 21:44, Eric Smith wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > The other thing that I took some notice of was mention of an 18-pin chip > > package as "recently developed" at one point in the story, and later on > > the mention of the 40-pin package as being then available. > > The 18 pin-per-package limit claims regarding the 4004 and 8008 have > been around for a long time, and I think they came from interviews with > Intel's founders and/or early employees, but I think they're factually > incorrect, at least as commonly stated. > > The 24-pin DIP was very well established by 1968, and was already used > by TI at that time. My first TTL databook was from TI, and I believe there was some small number of 24-pin devices in there, like the 74154 and similar. (Hope I'm remembering right here. :-) > There were certainly higher pin-count packages at that time also. I'm not > sure about the 40-pin DIP, but in 1969 Fairchild was shipping at least one > memory chip in a 36-pin DIP, though that particular package never became > popular. There were also those "flatpacks" which I never could figure out. A precursor to surface mount? Something else? > Possibly whatever specific company Intel was contracting with to supply > lead frames and ceramic packages didn't yet offer higher pin count > packages, but they obviously were available from some vendors since > other semiconductor companies like Fairchild and TI were using them. I guess a large part of it was the machinery to handle that stuff too, besides the lead frames themselves. I don't know much about that stuff so I don't know if any given production machinery would be adaptable to many different sizes or if you'd need a different bigger machine to handle them. If the latter was the case then I can see where they might be reluctant if there weren't a lot of demand. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Aug 8 21:09:04 2008 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 21:09:04 -0500 Subject: Where to find memory ICs? In-Reply-To: <489B7D5E.6010607@oldskool.org> References: <43F0294F.3030705@oldskool.org> <1e1fc3e90602131138r4ff57282q20bfcde5703d8768@mail.gmail.com> <489B7703.7050009@oldskool.org> <489B7A7C.8020402@jetnet.ab.ca> <489B7D5E.6010607@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <489CFC40.1050603@mdrconsult.com> Jim Leonard wrote: > bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >>> Does anyone know of a cheaper way to get DRAM? $100 just so I can >>> add 6MB of RAM to a card doesn't seem right... >> Quit grumbing, be thank full you don't have to have +256 meg just on >> video card to run the lastest pc software. :( > > I don't think it's "grumbling" to ask if there is any way to get 1mbit > DRAMs for less than $1.89 apiece... Call MC Howard in Austin, ask to talk to Mel. If you want to, tell him I recommended him. He has all kinds of memory lying around. Worst case, you might have to peel it off a salvaged board. 800-490-6896 ObUsualPlug: It's a fun place to lose a couple of hours if you find yourself in Austin. For an idea of what you can find there, their ebay store is mchowardelectronics Doc From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Aug 8 21:12:45 2008 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 22:12:45 -0400 Subject: Argo Electronics in NYC to close In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Stopped by on the way home from Lombardi's this afternoon. Not much of interest. A few cardboard boxes of transformers, a box of VCR guts (various nylon gear assemblies), random motors (no steppers in evidence). Almost interesting was a stack of VME boards but all of the socketed components were gone. Otherwise, a box of IR remote controls, a few repaired TV sets, some boom boxes, cheap import tool kits, cheap import ear buds, etc. Having never been there before, I have no idea what it was like in its glory days... but I'd say it's going down by the bow now. Bill From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Aug 8 21:15:40 2008 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 21:15:40 -0500 Subject: COBOL quote in the news In-Reply-To: <489BA401.3000306@ptdprolog.net> References: <489ABA22.8563.F6561BF@cclist.sydex.com> <489B3CB5.7070806@brouhaha.com> <489BA401.3000306@ptdprolog.net> Message-ID: <489CFDCC.9070002@mdrconsult.com> madodel wrote: > Eric Smith wrote: >> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Just prior to y2k they were paying large bonuses to get C programmers to > learn COBOL so the 100s of millions of lines of code could be checked > and patched. Large companies were desperate. I'm sure a lot of these > folks were canned after 2000 when all the Y2K nonsense finally ended but > I'm sure they aren't all retired. And they should still be around if > someone offered them enough money. I haven't written any code since > 2001, because any contract would have required me to travel which I > couldn't do any more. But it was great while it lasted. My little brother was one of those y2k guys. He made a fair pocket full of cash fixing code, from about '97 to 2002. He also says, at 49 years old, that he'll dig ditches at minimum wage before he goes back to COBOL. Just saying. Doc From eric940 at gmail.com Fri Aug 8 21:22:43 2008 From: eric940 at gmail.com (Eric) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 19:22:43 -0700 Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Aug 8, 2008 at 2:20 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Bill Sudbrink > Sent: Thursday, August 07, 2008 8:52 PM > >> 11) I no longer remember how to start up Zork or some of the >> other programs... anyone feel free to provide details I'm >> missing. > > You were advised to use "ZORK^K" rather than ":ZORK". The latter > would always start a new Zork process, which was unfriendly given > the limited number of processes available under ITS; the former > would start a Zork process if none already existed, otherwise > connecting you to a shared memory image. Agreed. ...and IIRC, after a successful process was started using the "^K" method, you'd receive a "!" confirmation. So, in short, a proccess successfully started under ITS on one of the MIT ITS machines would look as thus: ZORK^K! To this day, my "TIP" access remains the closest thing I ever did that resembled something similar to that of what happened in War Games -- as eventually some military brass from the TIP I was using sent me email telling me to beat it or else. I didn't at first, then received a sterner warning, and eventually had to leave (dialing the east coast from the west coast was costly; using a (government sponsered) west cost TIP to access machines across the country was preferred -- at least in my eyes.) :-) --eric940 From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Aug 8 21:24:14 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 22:24:14 -0400 Subject: Argo Electronics in NYC to close In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200808082224.14475.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 08 August 2008 22:12, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Stopped by on the way home from Lombardi's this afternoon. Not much of > interest. A few cardboard boxes of transformers, a box of VCR guts > (various nylon gear assemblies), random motors (no steppers in evidence). > Almost interesting was a stack of VME boards but all of the socketed > components were gone. Otherwise, a box of IR remote controls, a few > repaired TV sets, some boom boxes, cheap import tool kits, cheap import ear > buds, etc. Having never been there before, I have no idea what it was like > in its glory days... but I'd say it's going down by the bow now. Any indication of when they're closing? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Aug 8 22:04:53 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 21:04:53 -0600 Subject: Forgotten PC History In-Reply-To: <200808082158.13312.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <489C7C5F.7000008@jbrain.com> <200808082121.55813.rtellason@verizon.net> <489CF676.7050404@brouhaha.com> <200808082158.13312.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <489D0955.60800@jetnet.ab.ca> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > There were also those "flatpacks" which I never could figure out. A precursor > to surface mount? Something else? > > I would guess so, but I've never seen a flat pack in the flesh myself so I can't say. From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Aug 8 22:16:47 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 23:16:47 -0400 Subject: Forgotten PC History In-Reply-To: <489D0955.60800@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <489C7C5F.7000008@jbrain.com> <200808082158.13312.rtellason@verizon.net> <489D0955.60800@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200808082316.48035.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 08 August 2008 23:04, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > There were also those "flatpacks" which I never could figure out. A > > precursor to surface mount? Something else? > > I would guess so, but I've never seen a flat pack in the flesh myself so > I can't say. Aside from one of my databooks that has pictures on the cover, I can't say I have either, though it's possible that I did and forgot. There were times early on when I was starting to get to know that stuff that I momentarily considered the possibility of using some of it, and I decided pretty quick that it just flat-out wasn't worth the hassle. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Aug 8 22:44:02 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 20:44:02 -0700 Subject: Forgotten PC History In-Reply-To: <489CF676.7050404@brouhaha.com> References: <489C7C5F.7000008@jbrain.com> <200808082121.55813.rtellason@verizon.net> <489CF676.7050404@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > From: eric at brouhaha.com ---snip---> > Possibly whatever specific company Intel was contracting with to supply > lead frames and ceramic packages didn't yet offer higher pin count > packages, but they obviously were available from some vendors since > other semiconductor companies like Fairchild and TI were using them. > > Eric Hi My understanding was that Intel wasn't using them and they didn't expect to sell enough uP chips to make it practical to use a larger size. Later designs did use more pins. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Reveal your inner athlete and share it with friends on Windows Live. http://revealyourinnerathlete.windowslive.com?locale=en-us&ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WLYIA_whichathlete_us From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Aug 8 22:55:40 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 20:55:40 -0700 Subject: Forgotten PC History In-Reply-To: <489D0955.60800@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <489C7C5F.7000008@jbrain.com> <200808082121.55813.rtellason@verizon.net> <489CF676.7050404@brouhaha.com> <200808082158.13312.rtellason@verizon.net> <489D0955.60800@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca > > Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> There were also those "flatpacks" which I never could figure out. A precursor >> to surface mount? Something else? >> >> > I would guess so, but I've never seen a flat pack in the flesh myself so > I can't > say. > > Hi The only use I saw for the flat packs was while I was in the service. The boards had multiple layers and the leads went directly into the layers. In otherwords they were not surface mounted. The boards didn't have vias to connect layers. It was all chip to chip. There was a hole through the board layers for each flat pack. Reworking failed boards was a challenge because one had to unsolder and peel the layers back from the IC with conformal coat on every thing. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Get Windows Live and get whatever you need, wherever you are. Start here. http://www.windowslive.com/default.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Home_082008 From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 8 22:55:26 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 20:55:26 -0700 Subject: Forgotten PC History In-Reply-To: <200808082158.13312.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <489C7C5F.7000008@jbrain.com>, <489CF676.7050404@brouhaha.com>, <200808082158.13312.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <489CB2BE.1202.2B4B577@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Aug 2008 at 21:58, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > There were also those "flatpacks" which I never could figure out. A precursor > to surface mount? Something else? My first exposure to ICs was largely TO-99 style "cans", followed by flatpacks. The flatpack stuff that I had was mostly RTL. I didn't see many DIPs until TTL. I mounted the flatpacks as surface-mount and did a similar thing with the TO packages, just bending the leads in an L-shape and soldering them down to the PCB pads. That's the way I did my first IC boards--single-sided PCB, laid out with tape and etched. Hooked the pads together with No. 26 magnet wire. I didn't know any better, but it worked. Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Aug 8 23:39:32 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2008 00:39:32 -0400 Subject: Forgotten PC History In-Reply-To: <489CB2BE.1202.2B4B577@cclist.sydex.com> References: <489C7C5F.7000008@jbrain.com> <200808082158.13312.rtellason@verizon.net> <489CB2BE.1202.2B4B577@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200808090039.32367.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 08 August 2008 23:55, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8 Aug 2008 at 21:58, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > There were also those "flatpacks" which I never could figure out. A > > precursor to surface mount? Something else? > > My first exposure to ICs was largely TO-99 style "cans", followed by > flatpacks. The flatpack stuff that I had was mostly RTL. I didn't > see many DIPs until TTL. I mounted the flatpacks as surface-mount > and did a similar thing with the TO packages, just bending the leads > in an L-shape and soldering them down to the PCB pads. I remember a couple or three hobby kits of one sort or another that were RTL in cans. They came with a board but I'm not remembering the orientation of the board holes at this point, might've been DIP but we're talking 30+ years ago so I'm not sure. I do remember that I had to bend the leads, though. :-) > That's the way I did my first IC boards--single-sided PCB, laid out > with tape and etched. Hooked the pads together with No. 26 magnet > wire. > > I didn't know any better, but it worked. I guess that's what counts, eh? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 9 00:12:30 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 22:12:30 -0700 Subject: Forgotten PC History In-Reply-To: <200808090039.32367.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <489C7C5F.7000008@jbrain.com>, <489CB2BE.1202.2B4B577@cclist.sydex.com>, <200808090039.32367.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <489CC4CE.9751.2FB42F2@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Aug 2008 at 0:39, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > I remember a couple or three hobby kits of one sort or another that were RTL > in cans. They came with a board but I'm not remembering the orientation of > the board holes at this point, might've been DIP but we're talking 30+ years > ago so I'm not sure. I do remember that I had to bend the leads, > though. :-) I remember the Moto mWRTL experimenter's pack. Cans, but no boards-- and a fair number of analog suggested applications. RTL was kind of neat that way--it could swing both ways. If you wanted to make a microphone mixer using a 4-input NAND gate, you could without much trouble at all. Probably getting close to 40 years, no? Cheers, Chuck > > > That's the way I did my first IC boards--single-sided PCB, laid out > > with tape and etched. Hooked the pads together with No. 26 magnet > > wire. > > > > I didn't know any better, but it worked. > > I guess that's what counts, eh? > > -- > Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and > ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can > be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" > - > Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James > M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Aug 9 00:29:47 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2008 01:29:47 -0400 Subject: Forgotten PC History In-Reply-To: <489CC4CE.9751.2FB42F2@cclist.sydex.com> References: <489C7C5F.7000008@jbrain.com> <200808090039.32367.rtellason@verizon.net> <489CC4CE.9751.2FB42F2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200808090129.47592.rtellason@verizon.net> On Saturday 09 August 2008 01:12, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 9 Aug 2008 at 0:39, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > I remember a couple or three hobby kits of one sort or another that were > > RTL in cans. They came with a board but I'm not remembering the > > orientation of the board holes at this point, might've been DIP but > > we're talking 30+ years ago so I'm not sure. I do remember that I had to > > bend the leads, though. :-) > > I remember the Moto mWRTL experimenter's pack. Cans, but no boards-- > and a fair number of analog suggested applications. RTL was kind of > neat that way--it could swing both ways. If you wanted to make a > microphone mixer using a 4-input NAND gate, you could without much > trouble at all. Probably getting close to 40 years, no? > > Cheers, > Chuck Probably, yeah. I used to wander around lower Manhattan and other places around NYC where I might find interesting places selling assorted odd bits of electronic junk (an obsession I still have to some extent, collecting that stuff...). One time I went into this place that wasn't in the usual areas, not on Canal St. nor down around Cortlandt/Chambers, that area further down, but I'm thinking West Broadway maybe. I can't recall the name of the company, but I can still picture the guy's face. The kit that I remember well was this "electronic music maker" thingy that had basically an LFO driving a 4-bit counter and on each counter output you had a pot and a switch with the common point of those driving an oscillator, so you could select all sorts of patterns, and sequences. I put a lot of care into building that for one of my kids back then. Dunno whatever became of it, either. But it was all definitely RTL in there, it ran off a set of 3 or 4 C cells if I'm remembering right, because those were what would fit in the box. In recent email conversation talking about all those old Don Lancaster cookbooks I mentioned that the RTL one was the only one out of the set that I didn't have yet, and it was pointed out to me that there were copies *real* cheap on Amazon, which surprised me. I may yet get a hold of one of those, though I have little hope of running across any of those chips any more, even though they used to be common. And I don't suppose you can have quite as much fun with TTL, either. CMOS does have some possibilities, maybe. :-) > > > That's the way I did my first IC boards--single-sided PCB, laid out > > > with tape and etched. Hooked the pads together with No. 26 magnet > > > wire. > > > > > > I didn't know any better, but it worked. > > > > I guess that's what counts, eh? That reminds me of my first wire-wrap board, a CPU (only) build around an 8080 chip. Three regulators on the board, power supply connections by way of some strips of Vector bus stips cut in thirds, and I never did nail down any particular niterconnect scheme before I got majorly sidetracked away from it. But it did work, when I tried it... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 9 00:31:25 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 22:31:25 -0700 Subject: COBOL quote in the news In-Reply-To: <489CFDCC.9070002@mdrconsult.com> References: <489ABA22.8563.F6561BF@cclist.sydex.com>, <489BA401.3000306@ptdprolog.net>, <489CFDCC.9070002@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <489CC93D.25165.30C9306@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Aug 2008 at 21:15, Doc Shipley wrote: > He also says, at 49 years old, that he'll dig ditches at minimum wage > before he goes back to COBOL. Hmmm, goes back to what Eric said about Ada. COBOL imposes its own rigor. And remembering all of the variants on the some of the verbs (e.g. INSPECT) is enough to give you a headache. But other aspects are pretty cool. I could understand a C programmer having issues with COBOL. Cheers, Chuck From jvdg at sparcpark.net Sat Aug 9 01:11:52 2008 From: jvdg at sparcpark.net (Joost van de Griek) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2008 08:11:52 +0200 Subject: COBOL quote in the news In-Reply-To: <489CC93D.25165.30C9306@cclist.sydex.com> References: <489ABA22.8563.F6561BF@cclist.sydex.com> <489BA401.3000306@ptdprolog.net> <489CFDCC.9070002@mdrconsult.com> <489CC93D.25165.30C9306@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: 2008/8/9 Chuck Guzis : > On 8 Aug 2008 at 21:15, Doc Shipley wrote: > >> He also says, at 49 years old, that he'll dig ditches at minimum wage >> before he goes back to COBOL. > > Hmmm, goes back to what Eric said about Ada. COBOL imposes its own > rigor. And remembering all of the variants on the some of the verbs > (e.g. INSPECT) is enough to give you a headache. But other aspects > are pretty cool. > > I could understand a C programmer having issues with COBOL. Meh. You just have to see the sport in making it do what it wasn't designed to. .tsooJ From simon_coleby at agilent.com Fri Aug 8 05:36:12 2008 From: simon_coleby at agilent.com (simon_coleby at agilent.com) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 04:36:12 -0600 Subject: HP 5036A microprocessor lab - searching for copy of "Practical Microprocessors" In-Reply-To: <41E26065-1AB2-406D-AF06-656CBDBF3C14@centurytel.net> References: <41E26065-1AB2-406D-AF06-656CBDBF3C14@centurytel.net> Message-ID: <56A5414474C90B47B12AEADF7B268621013D0BD3@cos-us-mb06.cos.agilent.com> Hi Stuart, Thanks for taking the time to reply. I guessed this would be the situation. I do not have access to the needed equipment or experience in OCR/scanning to make a good job of this, even if I had a copy. Way back in the early eighties when Agilent was Hewlett-Packard, I used this kit for training, and well remember the manual. Annoyingly, I think we must have thrown our copy away during an office move many years ago. Ah well, I'll keep checking e-Bay. Cheers, and thanks again for your efforts. Simon Coleby. -----Original Message----- From: Stuart Johnson [mailto:ssj152 at centurytel.net] Sent: 06 August 2008 18:50 To: cctech at classiccmp.org; COLEBY,SIMON (A-England,ex2) Subject: HP 5036A microprocessor lab - searching for copy of "Practical Microprocessors" Simon, Sorry, I have only the one copy. I have seen other copies sold on eBay, but have not been willing to pay the $100 USD or more that they have sold for. It is really a shame that no one has been able or willing to have one scanned, but that would take a LOT of work - the manual is over an inch thick. Without proper OCR it would be a PDF of pictures, which load very slowly and would make the scan huge. I've seen quite a few manuals done this way and they aren't nearly as usable as the OCR'd variety. I thought about scanning mine back in 2003, and even bought a flat-bed scanner w/OCR software, but it wasn't up to the job at that time. Better equipment and software would have been necessary, along with cutting away the spine of the manual. Today there are better and more affordable solutions, but I am not up to doing it as my health has forced me to retire. I'm not willing to sell my manual in case anyone is wondering, sorry. This looks like an opportunity for someone with the manual, proper equipment, and time - anyone? Simon, do you have the required setup to do this without damaging the book? Regards Stuart Johnson --- On Aug 6, 2008, at 9:38 AM, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Hi Stuart, > > > > This is a long shot, but here goes... > > I have an HP5036A lab, but lack the book. > > Searching, I found this on a forum from way back in 2003: > > > "Yes, I managed to get a manual, by watching auctions on eBay. In > fact, I > bought another HP 5036A plus manual and let the seller keep the > hardware to > save shipping costs from England to the US. The manual is softcover > and > would not be easy to copy without cutting the spine off, which would > ruin > its value. > > Don't give up, though. I know someone that has a manual that has > been cut up > and copied and I'm trying to get it so that I can make an Acrobat > PDF file > of it. Stuart Johnson" > > I don't suppose you ever got a .pdf copy scanned? > Just interested. > > > > Cheers, > > Simon Coleby > > Customer Service Centre. > > Agilent Technologies UK Limited, Registered Office: 710 Wharfedale > Road, Winnersh Triangle, Wokingham, Berkshire, RG41 5TP - Registered > No. 03809903 > From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri Aug 8 13:31:09 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 14:31:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: AT&T 3B1 Unix PC (WTD: a 67MB version power supply) In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20080808085507.02f52788@smtp.degnanco.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20080808085507.02f52788@smtp.degnanco.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Aug 2008, B. Degnan wrote: > While we're on this topic, I wanted to mention that I am looking for a 67MB > version power supply. I have taken pictures of the two kinds of UNIX PC > power supplies should anyone be interested: > > > 67MB UNIX PC Power supply > http://vintagecomputer.net/att/3B1/ATT_UNIX-PC_3B1_370429065_pwr_suppl.jpg My 40MB Unix PC 7300 also uses that exact supply. > There seems to be some confusion about what you call the 67MB UNIX PC. Is it > a 3B1 or a 7300? Never was clear on that myself. My 40MB system says "PC 7300" on the bottom, but has a full height 40MB drive ("hump" in the case to clear it) + the power supply mentioned above. Would it be considered a 3b1? Steve -- From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Aug 8 15:33:10 2008 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 16:33:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: <489C9BD0.3080800@brouhaha.com> References: <489B63C0.21120.11FBEBEC@cclist.sydex.com>, <200808081613.m78GDvjh032637@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <489C1B55.30399.654A91@cclist.sydex.com> <489C9BD0.3080800@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <200808082036.QAA04134@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Although the Trailblazer transferred about 14 to 16 Kbps > uncompressed, it was a 7 baud modem! [*] It used slightly fewer > than 512 carriers, each transmitting at a very low rate. That's interesting! I knew it used hundreds of carriers, but I didn't know even the higher-frequency ones ran at low baud rates - and definitely didn't know that they all changed in sync (as is necessary to make "7 baud" fair). I'd just kind of assumed each one ran at a baud rate roughly proportional to the carrier frequency. Neat, the stuff you can learn just reading email. :) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From snhirsch at gmail.com Fri Aug 8 15:53:31 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 16:53:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: AT&T 3B1 Unix PC (WTD: a 67MB version power supply) In-Reply-To: <489C97A2.3090404@brouhaha.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20080808085507.02f52788@smtp.degnanco.com> <489C97A2.3090404@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Aug 2008, Eric Smith wrote: > B. Degnan wrote: >> 67MB UNIX PC Power supply > > 3B1 power supply, used whether the 3B1 had the 40MB or 67MB drive > >> There seems to be some confusion about what you call the 67MB UNIX PC. Is >> it a 3B1 or a 7300? > > 3B1. > > If the case has a hump, it's a 3B1. Without, it's a 7300. Why does my "3B1" say PC 7300 on the label? Just curious. -- From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Fri Aug 8 22:37:57 2008 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 23:37:57 -0400 Subject: Forgotten PC History Message-ID: <0K5B00KN3E1MGUV6@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Forgotten PC History > From: "bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca" > Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 21:04:53 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> There were also those "flatpacks" which I never could figure out. A precursor >> to surface mount? Something else? >> >> >I would guess so, but I've never seen a flat pack in the flesh myself so >I can't >say. > I had some of the dual 3 input parts used in the AGC block2 and still have a few uA709 opamps in the 8leg flavor. Package actually was flat ceramic hermetic and lived formany years for mil, High rel, and extended temp appications for a cost premium. Look in Burr brown, Intersil, or old RCA data books before 1976 and you may see samples of the package. Allison From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Sat Aug 9 04:32:02 2008 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2008 02:32:02 -0700 Subject: Forgotten PC History References: <489C7C5F.7000008@jbrain.com> <200808082121.55813.rtellason@verizon.net> <489CF676.7050404@brouhaha.com> <200808082158.13312.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <001f01c8fa02$c7e06670$0301a8c0@hal9000> When I worked at Odetics Anaheim,CA in the mid-70s we used tons of the "flatpacks" in our Spacebourne black boxes. They came in TTL, CMOS and I think even some ECL. The parts were spot welded with the legs straight out to gold posts that protruded slightly off of the PCBs. Expensive stuff, a RAM chip cost about $600 at the time. The parts were real low profile and weighed less than DIPs ( important in spacecraft, weight / space is at a premium ). The parts were all MIL-STD and some projects even RAD-hardened parts. Fun stuff. Best regards, Steven > On Friday 08 August 2008 21:44, Eric Smith wrote: > > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > > The other thing that I took some notice of was mention of an 18-pin chip > > > package as "recently developed" at one point in the story, and later on > > > the mention of the 40-pin package as being then available. > > > > The 18 pin-per-package limit claims regarding the 4004 and 8008 have > > been around for a long time, and I think they came from interviews with > > Intel's founders and/or early employees, but I think they're factually > > incorrect, at least as commonly stated. > > > > The 24-pin DIP was very well established by 1968, and was already used > > by TI at that time. > > My first TTL databook was from TI, and I believe there was some small number > of 24-pin devices in there, like the 74154 and similar. (Hope I'm > remembering right here. :-) > > > There were certainly higher pin-count packages at that time also. I'm not > > sure about the 40-pin DIP, but in 1969 Fairchild was shipping at least one > > memory chip in a 36-pin DIP, though that particular package never became > > popular. > > There were also those "flatpacks" which I never could figure out. A precursor > to surface mount? Something else? > > > Possibly whatever specific company Intel was contracting with to supply > > lead frames and ceramic packages didn't yet offer higher pin count > > packages, but they obviously were available from some vendors since > > other semiconductor companies like Fairchild and TI were using them. > > I guess a large part of it was the machinery to handle that stuff too, > besides the lead frames themselves. I don't know much about that stuff so I > don't know if any given production machinery would be adaptable to many > different sizes or if you'd need a different bigger machine to handle them. > If the latter was the case then I can see where they might be reluctant if > there weren't a lot of demand. > > -- > Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and > ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can > be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" > - > Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James > M Dakin From trebor72 at execpc.com Sat Aug 9 08:01:10 2008 From: trebor72 at execpc.com (Robert J. Stevens) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2008 08:01:10 -0500 Subject: Forgotten PC History In-Reply-To: <200808090159.m791xklg065140@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200808090159.m791xklg065140@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <489D9516.60602@execpc.com> cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Send cctalk mailing list submissions to > cctalk at classiccmp.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > cctalk-request at classiccmp.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..." > > Today's Topics: > 1. Forgotten PC History (Jim Brain) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 12:03:27 -0500 > From: Jim Brain > Subject: Forgotten PC History > To: Classic Computer Talk > Message-ID: <489C7C5F.7000008 at jbrain.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > I don't mean to repost, but I had not seen this posted as yet: > > http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9111341&source=NLT_AM&nlid=1 > > WOW; Does that bring back Memories. My first Computer job was for a Data Processing Outfit in New Jersey as a Computer room Operator. One day they brought in a Machine "Datapoint 2200" and I said I can program that. I had gone to a Programmers school a couple of years before. I at some point dumped the Datapoint's 8K of memory to the Printer then decoded it and re-assembled a program written in Assembly to intake three 11 line screens of data. It had Interrupts and You could even back track fields to correct them. Took me six months. Gave it to the Rep who eventually slid it into the Round File where some of my Best work ended up over the years. Wish I had been able to save the listing. The Manual for the editor said "Go have a cup of coffee while your files were being copied from the rear cassette to the front. I was still working on the Datapoint's in 1979 when I left the firm and moved to Wisconsin. I moved on to CP/M then the PC's as well as Learning how to Program for the IBM Series/1 in EDL. Now there was a Language. Still got a 110 Volt IBM 4952 in the Basement but never got it running. Wish I could find a GURU who could help me get it up and running. Kick my self for not doing it back in the early 90's when I brought it home. I was doing consulting on the Series/1 then but didn't find the time. Oh Well Bob in Wisconsin From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Aug 9 10:55:38 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2008 11:55:38 -0400 Subject: COBOL quote in the news In-Reply-To: <489CC93D.25165.30C9306@cclist.sydex.com> References: <489ABA22.8563.F6561BF@cclist.sydex.com>, <489BA401.3000306@ptdprolog.net>, <489CFDCC.9070002@mdrconsult.com> <489CC93D.25165.30C9306@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <489DBDFA.7060501@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8 Aug 2008 at 21:15, Doc Shipley wrote: > >> He also says, at 49 years old, that he'll dig ditches at minimum wage >> before he goes back to COBOL. > > Hmmm, goes back to what Eric said about Ada. COBOL imposes its own > rigor. And remembering all of the variants on the some of the verbs > (e.g. INSPECT) is enough to give you a headache. But other aspects > are pretty cool. > > I could understand a C programmer having issues with COBOL. I actually don't mind COBOL that much (or ADA), but I have to admit much of COBOL's imposed rigor is artificial. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Aug 9 11:03:28 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2008 12:03:28 -0400 Subject: LocalTalk In-Reply-To: References: <200808060556.m765uiXe016531@dewey.classiccmp.org> <8726.209.163.133.242.1218042556.squirrel@webmail.io.com> Message-ID: <489DBFD0.9000807@gmail.com> Steven Hirsch wrote: > On Wed, 6 Aug 2008, Jeff Walther wrote: > >> >>> Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 16:17:32 -0400 >>> From: Sridhar Ayengar >>> Subject: LocalTalk >> >>> >>> Hi. I'm looking for a LocalTalk->Ethernet bridge and some LocalTalk >>> cables. Anyone have any available? >> >> I don't have one available but the product names you are looking for >> include: >> >> AsantePrint >> MicroAsanteprint >> AsanteTalk >> >> in order from oldest to more recent. All three of those were by Asante. >> There were similar products from Farallon and Dayna, but I do not >> remember >> the specific product names. All of those will bridge from LocalTalk to >> Ethernet, but I think they only bridge the AppleTalk protocols and not >> TCP/IP. > > Additionally, they likely will not support Apple 2 flavored AppleTalk. > Don't know if that's an issue or not. The only bridges that seem to > work reliably for A2 networking are the Gatorbox and some firmware > revisions of the FastPath 4. FastPath 5 boxes go through the motions, > but cannot seem to keep sessions alive with the Apple IIGS on one end. > > For this A2 collector and enthusiast, it IS a big deal :-). I definitely need to support both Mac an ][. I was planning on getting it working in combination with a //e with a workstation card and a //c+ with its built-in LocalTalk to get them both on the Internet. Peace... Sridhar From doc at mdrconsult.com Sat Aug 9 11:58:02 2008 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2008 11:58:02 -0500 Subject: COBOL quote in the news In-Reply-To: <489CC93D.25165.30C9306@cclist.sydex.com> References: <489ABA22.8563.F6561BF@cclist.sydex.com>, <489BA401.3000306@ptdprolog.net>, <489CFDCC.9070002@mdrconsult.com> <489CC93D.25165.30C9306@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <489DCC9A.4060700@mdrconsult.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8 Aug 2008 at 21:15, Doc Shipley wrote: > >> He also says, at 49 years old, that he'll dig ditches at minimum wage >> before he goes back to COBOL. > > Hmmm, goes back to what Eric said about Ada. COBOL imposes its own > rigor. And remembering all of the variants on the some of the verbs > (e.g. INSPECT) is enough to give you a headache. But other aspects > are pretty cool. > > I could understand a C programmer having issues with COBOL. Oh, he's not/wasn't a C programmer. He's just like me, a mechanic fallen in with a bad crowd. :) Doc From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 9 12:29:30 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2008 10:29:30 -0700 Subject: COBOL quote in the news In-Reply-To: <489DBDFA.7060501@gmail.com> References: <489ABA22.8563.F6561BF@cclist.sydex.com>, <489CC93D.25165.30C9306@cclist.sydex.com>, <489DBDFA.7060501@gmail.com> Message-ID: <489D718A.25287.59E04D2@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Aug 2008 at 11:55, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I actually don't mind COBOL that much (or ADA), but I have to admit much > of COBOL's imposed rigor is artificial. True. On the other hand, how long did it take C to get the equivalent of MOVE CORRESPONDING or open subroutines? Bad COBOL is just as awful as bad C as bad assembly as bad Ada... Aside from PL/I, there aren't many other languages that allow for regulating the results of computation by means of PICTURE clauses, or is pretty much explicitly decimal. A very few out there allow for specification of rounded vs. truncated arithmetic on a statement by statement basis. But yeah, COBOL can be a royal pain to write well. Cheers, Chuck From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Sat Aug 9 13:10:57 2008 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2008 20:10:57 +0200 Subject: More ETH Lilith goodies available. Message-ID: <489DDDB1.6000306@bluewin.ch> Those with an interest in the ETH Lilith Modula-2 should point their FTP clients to ftp://jdreesen.dyndns.org/ftp/lilith where they will find plenty of data concerning that machine. Most important is a binary image of the Lilith Systemdisk, and a directory containing all files ( more then 700..) of that systemdisk. Among these files are : Medos binaries and source code. Modula-2 compiler binaries with source code. Lilith system utilities with source code. Bootfiles and system files. Microcode sources and assembler Manual Also available are hardware docu and some screenshots. Enjoy , Jos Dreesen Server is on a basic DSL line, so download speeds will vary.... From ygehrich at yahoo.com Sat Aug 9 15:09:08 2008 From: ygehrich at yahoo.com (Gene Ehrich) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2008 16:09:08 -0400 Subject: old manuals in Spring Hill Florida Message-ID: <200808092009.m79K9Ux9038861@keith.ezwind.net> I've got a lot of old manuals (some very old) including PC, MAC, Commodore, TI and much, much more. I'm going to be putting them in the trash in about a week. If anybody would like to come pick up all of them let me know. I have one batch now and will have other batches in the future. Not going to go through them to look for anything specific. From onymouse at garlic.com Sat Aug 9 11:06:57 2008 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2008 09:06:57 -0700 Subject: Flat Packs (Forgotten PC History) In-Reply-To: <001f01c8fa02$c7e06670$0301a8c0@hal9000> References: <489C7C5F.7000008@jbrain.com> <200808082121.55813.rtellason@verizon.net> <489CF676.7050404@brouhaha.com> <200808082158.13312.rtellason@verizon.net> <001f01c8fa02$c7e06670$0301a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <489DC0A1.8030209@garlic.com> Scanning ????????: > When I worked at Odetics Anaheim,CA in the mid-70s we used tons of the > "flatpacks" in our Spacebourne black boxes. They came in TTL, CMOS and I > think even some ECL. The parts were spot welded with the legs straight out > to gold posts that protruded slightly off of the PCBs. Expensive stuff, a > RAM chip cost about $600 at the time. The parts were real low profile and > weighed less than DIPs ( important in spacecraft, weight / space is at a > premium ). The parts were all MIL-STD and some projects even RAD-hardened > parts. Fun stuff. > > I've seen a few things with flat packs and have had a few of the little critters myself. Most were from Fairchild. Some didn't have the maker's logo and some weren't marked at all. THey were typically white ceramic packages with gold lids and gold leads. They are either square, rectangular or round, with 2, 4, 6, 8--up to 20 leads. I'm pretty sure that most of the stuff was space grade and came from satellite and missile projects. I found them in analog, digital and analog/digital gear, often in UHF and microwave RF stuff, sometimes mixed with tubes, either soldered to 2oz gold plated copper PCB's, or spot welded onto gold plated posts or small blocks, or in one case, trimmed and welded in an unusual way to very heavy copper on a Teflon PCB. Wherever they were PCB mounted, whether soldered or welded, there usually was a hole cut out for them. Sometimes the solder was some gold alloy. THe leads were typically not bent as SMT components are now. I've also seen large arrays of them attached to leads that came out of PCB layers. These PCB's were covered with solid gold-plated copper on both sides, with the circuitry on the layers inside. They still exist, in some form, at least. The most common form seems to be as medium powered microwave (above 500MHz) RF transistors, arrays, amplifiers or LSI/ASIC radios. Some leads are modified to serve as heatsinks. It seems that they are caught up in the trend toward leadless packages as well, so they will probably go away too. They are almost effective as shuriken... -- jd From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 9 16:39:47 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2008 14:39:47 -0700 Subject: Flat Packs (Forgotten PC History) In-Reply-To: <489DC0A1.8030209@garlic.com> References: <489C7C5F.7000008@jbrain.com>, <001f01c8fa02$c7e06670$0301a8c0@hal9000>, <489DC0A1.8030209@garlic.com> Message-ID: <489DAC33.10852.683271D@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Aug 2008 at 9:06, jd wrote: > I've seen a few things with flat packs and have had a few of the > little critters myself. Most were from Fairchild. Some didn't have the > maker's logo and some weren't marked at all. > > THey were typically white ceramic packages with gold lids and gold > leads. They are either square, rectangular or round, with 2, 4, 6, > 8--up to 20 leads. Here's a nice exhibit: http://www.vintchip.com/flatpack.html The ones I used were ceramic, but black/gray not white. No lids, gold leads. Typical of these was the 723 JK flip-flop--probably because of defense spending, easier to get and cheaper than the plastic DIP or TO-99 package, if you could find them. The original flatpacks, I believe, came from TI. DIPs came later. Cheers, Chuck From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sat Aug 9 17:25:52 2008 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2008 18:25:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: ARCNET Message-ID: At a rescue last week (thanks, Barry), I picked up a pile of ARCNET hardware including 8-bit ISA cards, active hubs and power supplies. Some of it has been claimed by MARCH members, but I still have a batch available for the cost of shipping from 16803: Manuals: Tiara Lancard/A * PC ARCNET User's Manual for CN008AH and CN008TH CNet 120A ARCNET User's Manual (qty 4) Diskette: ARCNET 5.25" MEGA Diskette #75-00790-3000 Cards (8-bit ISA): SMC ARCNET-PC130 (qty 3) Tiara Lancard/A * PC (qty 12) CNet ARCNET 120A (qty 1) Active Hubs: Addtron ARCNET Active Hub, 8-port, ARC800ST (qty 5) CNet Arcnet HUB 008AH, 8-port (qty 2) (The Addtron and CNet hubs have an internal power supply and take a standard power cord) Tiara ARCNET LanHub, 8-port (qty 2), Power Supplies (qty 3) SMC ARCNET Active Hub, 8-port (qty 13), Power Supplies (qty 6) Please contact me off-list if you're interested in any of this lot. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Aug 9 17:25:15 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2008 18:25:15 -0400 Subject: Forgotten PC History In-Reply-To: <0K5B00KN3E1MGUV6@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0K5B00KN3E1MGUV6@vms173003.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200808091825.15392.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 08 August 2008 23:37, Allison wrote: > >Subject: Re: Forgotten PC History > > From: "bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca" > > Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 21:04:53 -0600 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > > >Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >> There were also those "flatpacks" which I never could figure out. A > >> precursor to surface mount? Something else? > > > >I would guess so, but I've never seen a flat pack in the flesh myself so > >I can't > >say. > > I had some of the dual 3 input parts used in the AGC block2 and still have > a few uA709 opamps in the 8leg flavor. Package actually was flat ceramic > hermetic and lived formany years for mil, High rel, and extended temp > appications for a cost premium. Look in Burr brown, Intersil, or old RCA > data books before 1976 and you may see samples of the package. I actually have some RCA books that go back that far, but don't know about the others. And I've yet to encounter any of those packages, or stuff that used 'em, that I know of. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Sat Aug 9 19:26:38 2008 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2008 17:26:38 -0700 Subject: Flat Packs (Forgotten PC History) References: <489C7C5F.7000008@jbrain.com>, <001f01c8fa02$c7e06670$0301a8c0@hal9000>, <489DC0A1.8030209@garlic.com> <489DAC33.10852.683271D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <000501c8fa7f$c16c7400$0301a8c0@hal9000> Mine were like Chuck's and always ceramic but could be black or gray and always had gold leads. Mostly TTL and some 4000 Series CMOS. They conformed to MIL-STD-1835C and cost a lot. If you want to see the progression in packaging of ICs from 1960 forward check out; http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~wylie/ICs/monolith.htm Best regards, Steven > On 9 Aug 2008 at 9:06, jd wrote: > > > I've seen a few things with flat packs and have had a few of the > > little critters myself. Most were from Fairchild. Some didn't have the > > maker's logo and some weren't marked at all. > > > > THey were typically white ceramic packages with gold lids and gold > > leads. They are either square, rectangular or round, with 2, 4, 6, > > 8--up to 20 leads. > > Here's a nice exhibit: > > http://www.vintchip.com/flatpack.html > > The ones I used were ceramic, but black/gray not white. No lids, > gold leads. Typical of these was the 723 JK flip-flop--probably > because of defense spending, easier to get and cheaper than the > plastic DIP or TO-99 package, if you could find them. > > The original flatpacks, I believe, came from TI. DIPs came later. > > Cheers, > Chuck From dm561 at torfree.net Sat Aug 9 19:23:31 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2008 20:23:31 -0400 Subject: NEC Spinwriter thimble Message-ID: <01C8FA5D.E7BEC1C0@mandr71> While cleaning out some junk I found a NEC thimble (Tech Math/Times Roman). One of the fingers is a little shorter than the rest, but it doesn't look broken (and the LC char is blank, unlike the rest); is this a normal index key, or is it in fact broken? And if it's OK, does anyone want it? m From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Aug 9 20:03:37 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2008 19:03:37 -0600 Subject: More ETH Lilith goodies available. In-Reply-To: <489DDDB1.6000306@bluewin.ch> References: <489DDDB1.6000306@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <489E3E69.5080006@jetnet.ab.ca> Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: > Those with an interest in the ETH Lilith Modula-2 should point their > FTP clients to > ftp://jdreesen.dyndns.org/ftp/lilith > > where they will find plenty of data concerning that machine. > > Most important is a binary image of the Lilith Systemdisk, and a > directory containing all files ( more then 700..) of that systemdisk. > > Among these files are : > > Medos binaries and source code. > Modula-2 compiler binaries with source code. > Lilith system utilities with source code. > Bootfiles and system files. > Microcode sources and assembler > Manual > > > Also available are hardware docu and some screenshots. > > Enjoy , > > Jos Dreesen But can one build the hardware from scratch? None of this software emulation. > > Server is on a basic DSL line, so download speeds will vary.... > From rickb at bensene.com Sat Aug 9 20:07:29 2008 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2008 18:07:29 -0700 Subject: Flat Packs In-Reply-To: <489DAC33.10852.683271D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <489C7C5F.7000008@jbrain.com>, <001f01c8fa02$c7e06670$0301a8c0@hal9000>, <489DC0A1.8030209@garlic.com> <489DAC33.10852.683271D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: I've only come across two electronic calculators that use flatpack IC's. In 1965, Victor Comptometer made an attempt to build a fully-electronic desktop electronic calculator, called the Victor 3900, that proved to push the state of the art just a little too far. The 3900 used round-case flat-pack IC's, with 22 leads, with spot-weld type technology used to connect the leads to the circuit traces on the circuit board. Unfortunately, the yields of the ICs were not very high, and there were lots of infant mortality problems with the chips dying once the machines were in the customer's hands. The machine, had it been successful, would have put Victor in the enviable position of making a massive jump in technology over the electronics used by anyone else at the time, and would have kept them ahead of the game for quite a long time. There's some information on the Old Calculator Museum website exhibit on the Victor 14-322 (a machine made significantly later using very conventional technology) at http://oldcalculatormuseum.com/vic14-322.html. In around 1970, the Casio AL-2000 (http://oldcalculatormuseum.com/casal2k.html), an early small-scale MOS IC-based programmable (in very limited form) calculator, used two 24-pin flat-pack integrated circuits made by Philco, in ceramic bases with gold lids and leads in the arithmetic logic unit. These are medium-scale devices, one of which (part number SC-1770) is a bit-serial adder adder, and the other chip (SC1771) is a complimenter IC, date coded in late 1968 to early 1969. The chips are surface mounted, again using some kind of spot-welding to connect the leads of the device to the traces on the circuit board. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From James at jdfogg.com Sat Aug 9 20:42:41 2008 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2008 21:42:41 -0400 Subject: Flat Packs (Forgotten PC History) Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A922191@sbs.jdfogg.com> > > When I worked at Odetics Anaheim,CA in the mid-70s we used tons of the > > "flatpacks" in our Spacebourne black boxes. They came in TTL, CMOS and I > > think even some ECL. The parts were spot welded with the legs straight > out > > to gold posts that protruded slightly off of the PCBs. Expensive stuff, > a > > RAM chip cost about $600 at the time. The parts were real low profile > and > > weighed less than DIPs ( important in spacecraft, weight / space is at a > > premium ). The parts were all MIL-STD and some projects even RAD- > hardened > > parts. Fun stuff. In the 1960's and 70's my mother worked as a bonder for Transitron in Wakefield Massachusetts. They mostly did .gov work and a lot of her work went to NASA and defense work. She would bring home reject work that had not been "capped" (open top, die, pins and bonding wires visible). I remember her making some into jewelry. They were so unusual at the time that they attracted a lot of attention. BTW, a bonder soldered the hair thin gold wire from the "chip" (dice) to the carrier legs (pins). They used stereo microscopes and it was precision work. From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Aug 9 20:56:01 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2008 18:56:01 -0700 Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: <200808082036.QAA04134@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <489B63C0.21120.11FBEBEC@cclist.sydex.com>, <200808081613.m78GDvjh032637@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <489C1B55.30399.654A91@cclist.sydex.com> <489C9BD0.3080800@brouhaha.com> <200808082036.QAA04134@Sparkle.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <489E4AB1.7060703@brouhaha.com> der Mouse wrote about the Telebit Trailblazer: > That's interesting! I knew it used hundreds of carriers, but I didn't > know even the higher-frequency ones ran at low baud rates - and > definitely didn't know that they all changed in sync (as is necessary > to make "7 baud" fair). They do all change in sync. The modulation and demodulation are performed using an FFT. That was important to making the original Trailblazer cost-effective, because it was able to trade off using a little more memory for needing less DSP computation, as compared to running hundreds of separate QAM modulators or demodulators. The rate isn't exactly 7 Hz, but it's somewhere close to that. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Aug 9 20:56:44 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2008 18:56:44 -0700 Subject: AT&T 3B1 Unix PC (WTD: a 67MB version power supply) In-Reply-To: References: <5.1.0.14.0.20080808085507.02f52788@smtp.degnanco.com> <489C97A2.3090404@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <489E4ADC.7050205@brouhaha.com> Steven Hirsch wrote: > Why does my "3B1" say PC 7300 on the label? Just curious. Possibly manufactured during the transition, and they weren't careful with the labels? From eric at brouhaha.com Sat Aug 9 20:59:48 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2008 18:59:48 -0700 Subject: Forgotten PC History In-Reply-To: <200808082158.13312.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <489C7C5F.7000008@jbrain.com> <200808082121.55813.rtellason@verizon.net> <489CF676.7050404@brouhaha.com> <200808082158.13312.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <489E4B94.2090208@brouhaha.com> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > There were also those "flatpacks" which I never could figure out. A precursor > to surface mount? Something else? Yes, for military applications. For instance, the Apollo Guidance Computer is full of chips in flatpacks. I'm not an expert on early IC packaging, but AFAIK the flatpack predated the DIP. Prior to the DIP, most ICs had 10 pins or fewer, and were offered in flatpacks or round metal cans. From onymouse at garlic.com Sat Aug 9 21:37:55 2008 From: onymouse at garlic.com (jd) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2008 19:37:55 -0700 Subject: Flat Packs (Forgotten PC History) In-Reply-To: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A922191@sbs.jdfogg.com> References: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A922191@sbs.jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <489E5483.8020006@garlic.com> James Fogg ????????: > > In the 1960's and 70's my mother worked as a bonder for Transitron in > Wakefield Massachusetts. They mostly did .gov work and a lot of her work > went to NASA and defense work. She would bring home reject work that had > not been "capped" (open top, die, pins and bonding wires visible). I > remember her making some into jewelry. They were so unusual at the time > that they attracted a lot of attention. > O yah! Several of us used to make "bug" jewelry and other stuff from the rejects. Someone's kid made a bug collection and a diorama of "wild" bugs for a science fair and got a blue and a gold ribbon for them. Also took the scrapped wirebond wire for jewelry, too. At the time, the aluminum wire was pretty inexpensive and there was no interest in conserving it. They were always throwing away spools with leftover wire, often with several dozen feet of wire left on them. The gold wire was not that much more expensive. It's nowhere near "cheap" now. Someone also started a business of making "bug" jewelry from the reject and scrapped stuff bought from semiconductor makers. They had earrings, brooches, charms, etc. Dunno if they're still in business. -- jd yawn. pass it on. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Aug 9 23:38:54 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2008 21:38:54 -0700 Subject: NEC Spinwriter thimble In-Reply-To: <01C8FA5D.E7BEC1C0@mandr71> References: <01C8FA5D.E7BEC1C0@mandr71> Message-ID: <489E0E6E.15065.802D9C9@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Aug 2008 at 20:23, M H Stein wrote: > One of the fingers is a little shorter than the rest, but it > doesn't look broken (and the LC char is blank, unlike the > rest); is this a normal index key, or is it in fact broken? Hmmm. On a standard 64 "finger" Spinwriter thimble, a cluster of five of the fingers is shortened to only a single character height, which allows the operator to see what's been printed. That's on the 3500--I don't know about later models. Cheers, Chuck From vze323vd at verizon.net Sat Aug 9 03:29:22 2008 From: vze323vd at verizon.net (Greg Manuel (V)) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2008 04:29:22 -0400 Subject: Ot again In-Reply-To: <20080808165828.A86800@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: LMAO, Fred. Greg > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org]On Behalf Of Fred Cisin > Sent: Friday, August 08, 2008 8:00 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Ot again > > > > > when did they start using lithium batteries? > > > > > I suspect when digital watches came out. > > So, . . . > the discovery of fire dates back to the Northstar Horizon power supply, > not just to laptop batteries? > > > > From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Sat Aug 9 13:15:53 2008 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2008 13:15:53 -0500 Subject: Two computer books available Message-ID: While cleaning out my barn, I found the following two paperback books, that may be of interest to someone here. 1) small paperback "Varian DATA 620/i computer manual" (Bulletin 605-A, April 1968). 2) "The Helios Operating System" by Perihelion Software Ltd (1989). Says it's an OS designed to run on transputer architectures, but I guess you'd know that if you want it :) If interested please contact me off-list. Just looking for postage costs and a token amount to cover the trip to the post office. thanks Charles From philip at axeside.co.uk Sat Aug 9 14:49:17 2008 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2008 20:49:17 +0100 Subject: Forgotten PC History In-Reply-To: <489CF676.7050404@brouhaha.com> References: <489C7C5F.7000008@jbrain.com> <200808082121.55813.rtellason@verizon.net> <489CF676.7050404@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <489DF4BD.1090604@axeside.co.uk> > The 18 pin-per-package limit claims regarding the 4004 and 8008 have > been around for a long time, and I think they came from interviews with > Intel's founders and/or early employees, but I think they're factually > incorrect, at least as commonly stated. > > The 24-pin DIP was very well established by 1968, and was already used > by TI at that time. There were certainly higher pin-count packages at > that time also. I'm not sure about the 40-pin DIP, but in 1969 > Fairchild was shipping at least one memory chip in a 36-pin DIP, though > that particular package never became popular. I would find it hard to believe that 24-pin and higher dips were unavailable. I have a couple of Sharp calculators from about that date. I just grabbed the nearest (an ELSI-160) and opened it up, to find that the four chips have date codes in early 1971 and forty-two (yes, 42) pins each in a dual zigzag arrangement. The pins are spaced at 0.05 inch, and alternate pins stick out 0.1 inch further than the rest. The whole is a gold-top ceramic package a little smaller than a 24-pin DIP. (FWIW at least one of the calculators has edge connectors with a pin spacing of 1.25mm. But the chips are still 0.05", i.e. 1.27mm. And yes, you can tell the difference. For the early '70s, this is high precision stuff!) > Possibly whatever specific company Intel was contracting with to supply > lead frames and ceramic packages didn't yet offer higher pin count > packages, but they obviously were available from some vendors since > other semiconductor companies like Fairchild and TI were using them. That makes sense. I think someone said it already: if the chip was a custom job for a lowish-volume contract, Intel wouldn't want to go and find a new packaging contractor for it. Philip. From philip at axeside.co.uk Sat Aug 9 14:51:11 2008 From: philip at axeside.co.uk (Philip Belben) Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2008 20:51:11 +0100 Subject: Forgotten PC History In-Reply-To: <200808082121.55813.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <489C7C5F.7000008@jbrain.com> <200808082121.55813.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <489DF52F.1090104@axeside.co.uk> > An interesting read. One thing that jumped out at me when I got to the second > page of the article was how wide that screen was compared to its height. Do > you know offhand what the screen was, in terms of characters? No, but the article mentioned that the screen was reduced in height to make it look like an IBM punch card, so I'd guess 12 lines of 80 characters. Philip From snhirsch at gmail.com Sat Aug 9 15:02:26 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2008 16:02:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: LocalTalk In-Reply-To: <489DBFD0.9000807@gmail.com> References: <200808060556.m765uiXe016531@dewey.classiccmp.org> <8726.209.163.133.242.1218042556.squirrel@webmail.io.com> <489DBFD0.9000807@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Aug 2008, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I definitely need to support both Mac an ][. I was planning on getting it > working in combination with a //e with a workstation card and a //c+ with its > built-in LocalTalk to get them both on the Internet. I didn't think any of the //c models actually had built-in Appletalk capability. IIRC there were plans to do this and some vestigial code in the system ROMs, but nothing actually functional. Steve -- From axelsson at acc.umu.se Sat Aug 9 18:24:01 2008 From: axelsson at acc.umu.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Axelsson?=) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 01:24:01 +0200 Subject: Forgotten PC History In-Reply-To: <489C7C5F.7000008@jbrain.com> References: <489C7C5F.7000008@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <489E2711.8060107@acc.umu.se> I'm surprised... well, not that much, I have lurked on this list for a while now. When I first read this article and saw how many responses it got I thought that now I would finally learn some more about my old DP2200. But the discussion immediately changed into a discussion about various chip carriers. In a vane attempt to steer the discussion back into the original topic, the Datapoint 2200, I wonder if there is anyone else that is restoring these machines and if there are any schematics out there. I added a small teaser with some pictures of a 4 kbyte memory card, the only thing I have of it in my apartment. http://www.home.neab.net/DP2200/ Some day I will try to restore it. /G?ran Jim Brain wrote: > I don't mean to repost, but I had not seen this posted as yet: > > http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9111341&source=NLT_AM&nlid=1 > > > From atomkey at yahoo.com Sat Aug 9 22:54:13 2008 From: atomkey at yahoo.com (AtomKey) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2008 20:54:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HERO1 For sale... Message-ID: <352984.78225.qm@web52610.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Greetings. I am interested in purchasing a HERO1 (fro heathkit). The original asking price from 1979 - 1982 was about $1,500.00 I think $150.00 would be a fair trade. What do you think? Referenced here: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2007-December/089541.html Thank you. Atomkey. From iamvirtual at gmail.com Sun Aug 10 00:13:06 2008 From: iamvirtual at gmail.com (B M) Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2008 23:13:06 -0600 Subject: Forgotten PC History Message-ID: <000201c8faa7$c9b16df0$4001a8c0@bear42> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > There were also those "flatpacks" which I never could figure out. A > precursor > to surface mount? Something else? Eric Smith wrote: > Yes, for military applications. For instance, the Apollo Guidance > Computer is full of chips in flatpacks. > > I'm not an expert on early IC packaging, but AFAIK the flatpack predated > the DIP. Prior to the DIP, most ICs had 10 pins or fewer, and were > offered in flatpacks or round metal cans. Here is a picture of a circuit board which is a flight spare for the Instrumentation Unit of the Saturn V showing the flat packs IBM designed for the Apollo missions: http://www.iamvirtual.ca/collection/space/SaturnVIUBoard.html From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Sun Aug 10 02:04:27 2008 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 09:04:27 +0200 Subject: More ETH Lilith goodies available. In-Reply-To: <489E3E69.5080006@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <489DDDB1.6000306@bluewin.ch> <489E3E69.5080006@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <489E92FB.4010608@bluewin.ch> Enjoy , >> >> Jos Dreesen > But can one build the hardware from scratch? > None of this software emulation. If you can stomach wiring up 1000 ic's, why not.... There are no custom IC's inside the Lilith. A FPGA solution would be more realistic. But then the diskdrive and its cartridges are unobtainium. Jos From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Aug 10 02:25:46 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 01:25:46 -0600 Subject: More ETH Lilith goodies available. In-Reply-To: <489E92FB.4010608@bluewin.ch> References: <489DDDB1.6000306@bluewin.ch> <489E3E69.5080006@jetnet.ab.ca> <489E92FB.4010608@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <489E97FA.6070105@jetnet.ab.ca> Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: > Enjoy , >>> >>> Jos Dreesen >> But can one build the hardware from scratch? >> None of this software emulation. > > If you can stomach wiring up 1000 ic's, why not.... > There are no custom IC's inside the Lilith. > A FPGA solution would be more realistic. > CPLD's are cheap and easy to program now days. I suspect getting high speed 2901's and proms for any micro-programed machine is tricky. > But then the diskdrive and its cartridges are unobtainium. > So what else is new? Still it sounds like a good project on this side of the pond - a well designed stack machine rather FORTH projects that every body seems to be building. > Jos > From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Sun Aug 10 02:42:35 2008 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 09:42:35 +0200 Subject: More ETH Lilith goodies available. In-Reply-To: <489E97FA.6070105@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <489DDDB1.6000306@bluewin.ch> <489E3E69.5080006@jetnet.ab.ca> <489E92FB.4010608@bluewin.ch> <489E97FA.6070105@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <489E9BEB.9070201@bluewin.ch> bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > So what else is new? Nothing, it is a 25 year old machine by now.... > Still it sounds like a good project on this side of the pond - > a well designed stack machine rather FORTH projects that > every body seems to be building. > Yes, but an exact copy remains a major undertaking. jos From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Aug 10 03:05:30 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 02:05:30 -0600 Subject: More ETH Lilith goodies available. In-Reply-To: <489E9BEB.9070201@bluewin.ch> References: <489DDDB1.6000306@bluewin.ch> <489E3E69.5080006@jetnet.ab.ca> <489E92FB.4010608@bluewin.ch> <489E97FA.6070105@jetnet.ab.ca> <489E9BEB.9070201@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <489EA14A.3040501@jetnet.ab.ca> Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: > bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > >> So what else is new? > > Nothing, it is a 25 year old machine by now.... >> Still it sounds like a good project on this side of the pond - >> a well designed stack machine rather FORTH projects that >> every body seems to be building. >> > Yes, but an exact copy remains a major undertaking. Too bad most people want a APPLE I clone. I just took a quick look at the design, and in retrospect I suspect 16bit addressing and data seems to be the limiting factor of this design. I'll have download more later to confirm this idea. > jos > From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Aug 10 03:53:12 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 01:53:12 -0700 Subject: Forgotten PC History In-Reply-To: <489DF4BD.1090604@axeside.co.uk> References: <489C7C5F.7000008@jbrain.com> <200808082121.55813.rtellason@verizon.net> <489CF676.7050404@brouhaha.com> <489DF4BD.1090604@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: <489EAC78.4010101@brouhaha.com> Philip Belben wrote: > I have a couple of Sharp calculators from about that date. I just > grabbed the nearest (an ELSI-160) and opened it up, to find that the > four chips have date codes in early 1971 and forty-two (yes, 42) pins > each in a dual zigzag arrangement. 42-pin DIP packages were common among Japanese semiconductor vendors but I don't recall seeing any from US vendors. For example, the early NEC cassette/cartridge tape controller chip, uPD371 was in a 42-pin DIP. I think their single-density floppy controller chip, uPD372, might also have been in a 42-pin DIP. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Aug 10 03:54:40 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 01:54:40 -0700 Subject: HERO1 For sale... In-Reply-To: <352984.78225.qm@web52610.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <352984.78225.qm@web52610.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <489EACD0.5040406@brouhaha.com> AtomKey wrote: > I am interested in purchasing a HERO1 (fro heathkit). > The original asking price from 1979 - 1982 was about $1,500.00 > I think $150.00 would be a fair trade. What do you think? I think you're rather optimisitic. From frustum at pacbell.net Sun Aug 10 04:05:10 2008 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 04:05:10 -0500 Subject: Forgotten PC History In-Reply-To: <489E2711.8060107@acc.umu.se> References: <489C7C5F.7000008@jbrain.com> <489E2711.8060107@acc.umu.se> Message-ID: <489EAF46.2080309@pacbell.net> G?ran Axelsson wrote: > I'm surprised... well, not that much, I have lurked on this list for a > while now. > > When I first read this article and saw how many responses it got I > thought that now I would finally learn some more about my old DP2200. > But the discussion immediately changed into a discussion about various > chip carriers. > > In a vane attempt to steer the discussion back into the original topic, > the Datapoint 2200, I wonder if there is anyone else that is restoring > these machines and if there are any schematics out there. > > I added a small teaser with some pictures of a 4 kbyte memory card, the > only thing I have of it in my apartment. > > http://www.home.neab.net/DP2200/ Neat! I had a Datapoint 2200 for a while. It didn't work either. I see yours is a first generation (bit serial). Mine was the 2nd generation CPU which was still discreet TTL, but was data parallel. Eventually I sold my 2200 due to (1) lack of time and (2) lack of any documents. I had contacted a couple people who had schematics and such, but neither was willing to make copies or loan their docs to me so I could copy them. I even went to a reunion of datapoint employees and found one guy who had just about all datapoint internal engineering documents and change notices in his barn. However, 6 months prior he moved to a smaller place, so he incinerated everything! The person I sold my machine to, David Monroe, was one of the engineers who originally designed the machine. He has schematics too. I never found out if he got it working again. From schwepes at moog.netaxs.com Sun Aug 10 09:08:31 2008 From: schwepes at moog.netaxs.com (schwepes at moog.netaxs.com) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 10:08:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Collecting philosophy (Was: Computer collectors are no longer the dweebiest...) In-Reply-To: References: <489A01E7.8010904@pacbell.net> Message-ID: It feels like a victory against planned obsolescence to get one of these things running and doing something useful. bs On Wed, 6 Aug 2008, Rick Bensene wrote: > > > Tony Duell wrote: > > Am I the only 'collector' who doesn't much care about the value of the > > > items hi his colelction? I collect things becuase I'm interested in > them, > > I find them beautiful (in a somewhat odd way, I can appreciate the > good > > design in a PDP11 or HP98x0 CPU, for example). I don't collect in the > > hope that I'll be able to sell them later for more money. > > No, Tony, at least there is someone else who has the same appreciation > (not in terms of monetary value doing such), but in the glory of design > and implementation. I don't care about the value of the calculators in > the Old Calculator Museum. Frankly, I really could care less what they > are worth. I do what I do because I have a great passion for this > particular part of our technological history, and there is such a > wonderful diversity of methods that various companies and engineers > invented to do the same basic functions, and each has its own beauty and > individuality, as well as (in some cases) places in history that are > significant. > > I state in the website that none of the stuff is for sale. It isn't. > When I die, it'll be taken care of properly. > That's all that matters to me. This stuff isn't an investment, except > in the time that I spend pondering the designs and troubleshooting > machines that there are no schematics for, or figuring out how to > program a programmable calculator that there's no documentation known to > exist in terms of its instruction set, as well as documenting what > tidbits I can learn on the website for others to hopefully get some > enjoyment and education from. > > Tinkering around with this stuff makes me happy. Digging through old > documents and finding shreds of historical significance that tie > together is the most wonderful kind of detective work. Communicating > with folks who "were there", like Tom Osborn(HP 9100/9800), Allen > Frankel (son of Stanley Frankel, developer of the SCM 240SR, and the > design of the Diehl > Combitron, and some early small computers, as well as being a nuclear > physicist involved in the Manhattan Project), Harold Koplow (Microcode > designer of Wang's 700-Series machines and others, including the 2200 > BASIC computer, and word-processing systems), and many others is such a > great privilege. Sharing what I learn is pure joy. > > The value is in those things, not dollars. I agree completely with > Tony's philosophy. Others may feel differently about these kinds of > things, and that's their right, and I'll fight to the death to defend > their right to feel that way, as well as for the right for Tony and > myself think the way we do. > > Rick Bensene > The Old Calculator Museum > http://oldcalculatormuseum.com > > From schwepes at moog.netaxs.com Sun Aug 10 10:16:07 2008 From: schwepes at moog.netaxs.com (schwepes at moog.netaxs.com) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 11:16:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Argo Electronics in NYC to close In-Reply-To: <489B206E.60107@radiorobots.com> References: <21614.69849.qm@web56203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <489B206E.60107@radiorobots.com> Message-ID: Actually there is more significance than you give. The last parts houses in the Philadelphia area closed down years ago. This is part of the underlying issues that face us in the greater, real world. This is of concern for more than merely discomforted hobbyists like us. Where you have a real industrial economy that is progressing, you have lots of, shall we say, second order business that keep the main businesses going. I am doing work for a major corporation and I need a prototype. I go to a fabricator and he may need several machine shops and parts houses to build me what I want. What I need is there expediously and nobody is forced to wait for some bottleneck component to come through. My wife is frankly and simply out of business because of the demise of the rag trade in Philadelphia. She would have been a third order business. She manufactured custom pieces out of remnents. By the way, in a progressing industrial economy, you do have an active legion of talented amateurs, ie hobbiests. The lightning is getting close so I'm going to shut down now. bs On Thu, 7 Aug 2008, steve stutman wrote: > Christian Liendo wrote: > > I just saw a commercial on NY1 stating that Argo Electronics is closing. They were the last Electronic Surplus stores on Canal St. I never saw a commercial for Argo. > > > > For those of you that don't know the significance. Back in the 80s (probably back in the 70s too but I am not that old), Canal St in NYC had many electronic surplus stores. Everything from radios to oscilloscopes. There are still electronic stores there but nothing like Argo. I remember buying all sorts of stuff. Well it looks like they are closing. > > > > Here are some sites that show pictures of Argo > > > > http://blog.makezine.com/archive/2008/02/argo_electronics_surplus.html > > > > http://www.flickr.com/photos/pmtorrone/tags/argoelectronics/ > > > > The address > > 393 Canal St > > New York, NY 10013-1691 > > Phone: (212) 226-4945 > > > > > > > > > Also back in the 60s. > From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sun Aug 10 11:04:46 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 13:04:46 -0300 Subject: WTB: Nec Intersect "detachable" CD-ROM References: <352984.78225.qm@web52610.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <489EACD0.5040406@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <06c601c8fb03$24369650$03fea8c0@portajara> Dear friends, A long long time ago, there was a CD-ROM model from the "nec intersect" series, which was deatachable and useable like a discman. CDU-53 or 63, maybe? I'm looking for one of these. It can be only the CD unit (without the cradle). Thanks Alexandre From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sun Aug 10 11:22:40 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 13:22:40 -0300 Subject: Forgotten PC History References: <489C7C5F.7000008@jbrain.com> <200808082121.55813.rtellason@verizon.net> <489CF676.7050404@brouhaha.com><489DF4BD.1090604@axeside.co.uk> <489EAC78.4010101@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <06fb01c8fb05$5504b800$03fea8c0@portajara> > 42-pin DIP packages were common among Japanese semiconductor vendors but I > don't recall seeing any from US vendors. Newer High-capacity EPROM memories also uses this package: 27C160, 27C320, 27C322... From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 10 11:24:41 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 12:24:41 -0400 Subject: Forgotten PC History In-Reply-To: <489DF4BD.1090604@axeside.co.uk> References: <489C7C5F.7000008@jbrain.com> <200808082121.55813.rtellason@verizon.net> <489CF676.7050404@brouhaha.com> <489DF4BD.1090604@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: On Aug 9, 2008, at 3:49 PM, Philip Belben wrote: > That makes sense. I think someone said it already: if the chip was > a custom job for a lowish-volume contract, Intel wouldn't want to > go and find a new packaging contractor for it. Did they actually outsource their packaging? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 10 11:38:05 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 09:38:05 -0700 Subject: Forgotten PC History In-Reply-To: <489DF4BD.1090604@axeside.co.uk> References: <489C7C5F.7000008@jbrain.com>, <489CF676.7050404@brouhaha.com>, <489DF4BD.1090604@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: <489EB6FD.311.A954516@cclist.sydex.com> Moto had flatpacks with 32 pins (8 per side on 4 sides) for their semicustom gate arrays in the late 60's. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Aug 10 11:53:04 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 10:53:04 -0600 Subject: Forgotten PC History In-Reply-To: <489EB6FD.311.A954516@cclist.sydex.com> References: <489C7C5F.7000008@jbrain.com>, <489CF676.7050404@brouhaha.com>, <489DF4BD.1090604@axeside.co.uk> <489EB6FD.311.A954516@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <489F1CF0.9070300@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Moto had flatpacks with 32 pins (8 per side on 4 sides) for their > semicustom gate arrays in the late 60's. > > Cheers, > Chuck > I am not shure of the packaging, but Motorola's ECL alu came in a weird package too. From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Aug 10 12:10:13 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 13:10:13 -0400 Subject: Forgotten PC History In-Reply-To: References: <489C7C5F.7000008@jbrain.com> <200808082121.55813.rtellason@verizon.net> <489CF676.7050404@brouhaha.com> <489DF4BD.1090604@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: <489F20F5.3050508@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Aug 9, 2008, at 3:49 PM, Philip Belben wrote: >> That makes sense. I think someone said it already: if the chip was a >> custom job for a lowish-volume contract, Intel wouldn't want to go and >> find a new packaging contractor for it. > > Did they actually outsource their packaging? That's actually a fairly common occurrence. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Aug 10 12:10:13 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 13:10:13 -0400 Subject: Forgotten PC History In-Reply-To: References: <489C7C5F.7000008@jbrain.com> <200808082121.55813.rtellason@verizon.net> <489CF676.7050404@brouhaha.com> <489DF4BD.1090604@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: <489F20F5.3050508@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Aug 9, 2008, at 3:49 PM, Philip Belben wrote: >> That makes sense. I think someone said it already: if the chip was a >> custom job for a lowish-volume contract, Intel wouldn't want to go and >> find a new packaging contractor for it. > > Did they actually outsource their packaging? That's actually a fairly common occurrence. Peace... Sridhar From eric at brouhaha.com Sun Aug 10 13:13:47 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 11:13:47 -0700 Subject: Forgotten PC History In-Reply-To: <489F1CF0.9070300@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <489C7C5F.7000008@jbrain.com>, <489CF676.7050404@brouhaha.com>, <489DF4BD.1090604@axeside.co.uk> <489EB6FD.311.A954516@cclist.sydex.com> <489F1CF0.9070300@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <489F2FDB.7000009@brouhaha.com> bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > I am not shure of the packaging, but Motorola's ECL alu > came in a weird package too. MC10800 series. Quad-In-Line Package (QUIP): pins on two opposite sides of the body like a DIP, but with the lengths protruding from the package (before the downward bend) alternating between short and long, so that the pins are in two rows on each side. Rockwell was one of the biggest users of QUIP packages for microcontrollers and such. I'm not sure whether their QUIPs were dimensioned the same as the Motorola ones. Note that these are different than the QUIP package used by Intel for the iAPX-432 components, and by both Intel and Zilog for emulation bond-out chips, prior to the introduction of the JEDEC 68 position ceramic leadless chip carrier. This QUIP was designed by Intel and AMP, and was a leadless ceramic package with contacts along the two long sides, the contacts being staggered in a similar manner to the leaded QUIPs. From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Sun Aug 10 13:27:42 2008 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 11:27:42 -0700 Subject: HERO1 For sale... References: <352984.78225.qm@web52610.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <489EACD0.5040406@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <001901c8fb16$c75ca910$0301a8c0@hal9000> The only HERO1 you could get for $150 would have to have severe brain damage, no batteries and a host of other problems. You cannot even get a HERO Jr for that low unless it is a basket case. If you want a working unit you probably are looking more at about $600 and up. You can fixer-uppers for somewhat less but beware that you could get something that is fried. The seller " robotworkshop " on Ebay sells lots of parts and is an honest guy and very helpful ( not a paid advertisement ). Over time you can get enough parts to build your own and save $$$$$. I have three HERO Jrs and two HERO1s that were brought to life this way. It is much more rewarding to spend time tinkering so you can finally declare " It's ALIVE " ....... Best regards, Steven ----- Original Message ----- From: "Eric Smith" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2008 1:54 AM Subject: Re: HERO1 For sale... > AtomKey wrote: > > I am interested in purchasing a HERO1 (fro heathkit). > > The original asking price from 1979 - 1982 was about $1,500.00 > > I think $150.00 would be a fair trade. What do you think? > > I think you're rather optimisitic. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 10 13:44:58 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 11:44:58 -0700 Subject: Forgotten PC History In-Reply-To: <489F2FDB.7000009@brouhaha.com> References: <489C7C5F.7000008@jbrain.com>, <489F1CF0.9070300@jetnet.ab.ca>, <489F2FDB.7000009@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <489ED4BA.3325.B096F3D@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Aug 2008 at 11:13, Eric Smith wrote: > Rockwell was one of the biggest users of QUIP packages for > microcontrollers and such. I'm not sure whether their QUIPs were > dimensioned the same as the Motorola ones. The PPS-4 microprocessor 1972 in QUIP being particularly noteworthy. I found a photo of one here: http://www.antiquetech.com/pictures%20full-size/Rockwell12660EA.jpg Cheers, Chuck From innfoclassics at gmail.com Sun Aug 10 13:48:10 2008 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 11:48:10 -0700 Subject: HERO1 For sale... In-Reply-To: <352984.78225.qm@web52610.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <352984.78225.qm@web52610.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > I am interested in purchasing a HERO1 (fro heathkit). > The original asking price from 1979 - 1982 was about $1,500.00 > I think $150.00 would be a fair trade. What do you think? > Referenced here: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctech/2007-December/089541.html > Thank you. > Atomkey. Hi Atomkey, The last Hero 1 I sold was a similar school machine, missing one or two outer covera but did have its battery charger, but dead batteries. Even though it was in kind of rough condition it brought $450 on Ebay. Paxton -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Aug 10 16:05:04 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 13:05:04 -0800 Subject: Forgotten PC History References: <489C7C5F.7000008@jbrain.com> <200808082121.55813.rtellason@verizon.net> <489CF676.7050404@brouhaha.com> <489DF4BD.1090604@axeside.co.uk> Message-ID: <489F5801.488DC288@cs.ubc.ca> Philip Belben wrote: > > Possibly whatever specific company Intel was contracting with to supply > > lead frames and ceramic packages didn't yet offer higher pin count > > packages, but they obviously were available from some vendors since > > other semiconductor companies like Fairchild and TI were using them. > > That makes sense. I think someone said it already: if the chip was a > custom job for a lowish-volume contract, Intel wouldn't want to go and > find a new packaging contractor for it. This issue is another of those recurring topics on the list (see URL): Subject: Re: 4004 and IC history / was Re: Vintage computer photogallery Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 14:14:25 -0700 Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 14:14:25 -0700 Brent Hilpert wrote: >dwight elvey wrote: >> This was what Federico Faggin had stated at a talk he gave at the CHM. >> Packaging was expensive and they'd made volume deals on 16 pin >> packages. Faggin stated that his design could have been a few times >> faster had he not been restricted to the small bus. >Here it is, straight from Faggin: http://www.intel4004.com/qa4004.htm, under the >question "Q.: Was there anything unique about the 4004?" or search for "16-pin". From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Aug 10 16:05:22 2008 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 13:05:22 -0800 Subject: IC packages / was Re: Forgotten PC History References: <489C7C5F.7000008@jbrain.com> <200808082121.55813.rtellason@verizon.net> <489CF676.7050404@brouhaha.com> <200808082158.13312.rtellason@verizon.net> <489E4B94.2090208@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <489F5812.B7657D3B@cs.ubc.ca> Eric Smith wrote: > > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > There were also those "flatpacks" which I never could figure out. A precursor > > to surface mount? Something else? > > Yes, for military applications. For instance, the Apollo Guidance > Computer is full of chips in flatpacks. > > I'm not an expert on early IC packaging, but AFAIK the flatpack predated > the DIP. Prior to the DIP, most ICs had 10 pins or fewer, and were > offered in flatpacks or round metal cans. Not definitive as to when the DIP was first introduced, but a couple of datapoints: - 1965 TI catalog shows only flatpacks - 1966 Fairchild catalog shows flatpacks, round cans (metal and epoxy), and 14 and 16-pin DIP packages. The DIP packages are also referred to as being "plug-in packages". Quote from the 1966 Fairchild catalog: The Dual In-Line - the most significant contribution to micro-circuit packaging in recent years - is a Fairchild concept. Its mechanical design incorporates the ultimate in design balance: thermal resistance is optimum, packaging density can be maximized without economic burden, and the cost of interconnection and attachment typically runs 10% of the cost of similar assembly with flat packs. The Dual In-Line package is fully hermetic, and although designed primarily to meet the economic objective of most industrial applications, it meets all the environmental requirements imposed by military systems. From Hollandia at ccountry.net Sun Aug 10 16:11:44 2008 From: Hollandia at ccountry.net (Hollandia at ccountry.net) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 14:11:44 -0700 Subject: Upgrading early BIOS Message-ID: <200808102111.m7ALBgoZ009926@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> One of my machines is an old Packard-Bell Legend 610 machine, to which I am trying to fit a second hard drive. The machine will not recognize any modern (or semi-modern) hard drive I have attempted to fit. I have tried various master/slave combinations, to no avail. My guess is that this is due to the BIOS being of am early type. The BIOS chip is a socketed DIP package and the lettering on it is too faded to read. The screen boot-up display is this: PhoenixBIOS(TM) A486 Version 1.01 PB400 OPTI 486WB Reference ID 08 Is this a reasonable guess? If so, what might be done by way of a BIOS upgrade? Thanks, Kurt From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Aug 10 16:29:47 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 14:29:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Upgrading early BIOS In-Reply-To: <200808102111.m7ALBgoZ009926@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> References: <200808102111.m7ALBgoZ009926@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> Message-ID: <20080810142804.A66558@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 10 Aug 2008 Hollandia at ccountry.net wrote: > One of my machines is an old Packard-Bell Legend 610 machine, to which I am > trying to fit a second hard drive. > The machine will not recognize any modern (or semi-modern) hard drive I have > attempted to fit. I have tried various master/slave combinations, to no avail. > My guess is that this is due to the BIOS being of am early type. The BIOS > chip is a socketed DIP package and the lettering on it is too faded to read. > The screen boot-up display is this: > PhoenixBIOS(TM) A486 Version 1.01 > PB400 OPTI 486WB > Reference ID 08 > Is this a reasonable guess? > If so, what might be done by way of a BIOS upgrade? Did you set the CMOS to 2 drives? Which drive types are supported in the CMOS? From healyzh at aracnet.com Sun Aug 10 16:57:23 2008 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 14:57:23 -0700 Subject: WTB: Nec Intersect "detachable" CD-ROM In-Reply-To: <06c601c8fb03$24369650$03fea8c0@portajara> References: <352984.78225.qm@web52610.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <489EACD0.5040406@brouhaha.com> <06c601c8fb03$24369650$03fea8c0@portajara> Message-ID: At 1:04 PM -0300 8/10/08, Alexandre Souza wrote: > A long long time ago, there was a CD-ROM model from the "nec >intersect" series, which was deatachable and useable like a discman. >CDU-53 or 63, maybe? I'm looking for one of these. It can be only >the CD unit (without the cradle). This would have been around 1992/93. I'm curious, why do you want one? I remember it being a real pain. I suspect I still have mine, it's not for sale though, but only because of the work that would be required to find it. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Sun Aug 10 17:07:19 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 19:07:19 -0300 Subject: WTB: Nec Intersect "detachable" CD-ROM References: <352984.78225.qm@web52610.mail.re2.yahoo.com><489EACD0.5040406@brouhaha.com><06c601c8fb03$24369650$03fea8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <082d01c8fb35$c690dc80$03fea8c0@portajara> > This would have been around 1992/93. I'm curious, why do you want one? I > remember it being a real pain. I suspect I still have mine, it's not for > sale though, but only because of the work that would be required to find > it. I have a videogame called "turbo grafx" (american version of the PC Engine from NEC). In the CD-ROM module, there is a CD that is EQUAL the Nec Intersect "detachable". I wanted one to test on mine, even because my CD unit is dead :( If I could find a complete (and working) nec intersect, I'd not only test it on the videogame (I'm **SURE** this is the same CD unit, since I had one and had to fix it back in 93) but also would find a way to connect a normal SCSI CD-ROM to the TurboGrafx / PC Engine and make people happier :o) Thanks Alexandre :) From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Aug 10 17:16:13 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 15:16:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: HERO1 For sale... In-Reply-To: <489EACD0.5040406@brouhaha.com> References: <352984.78225.qm@web52610.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <489EACD0.5040406@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <20080810151448.H67620@shell.lmi.net> AtomKey wrote: > I am interested in purchasing a HERO1 (fro heathkit). > The original asking price from 1979 - 1982 was about $1,500.00 > I think $150.00 would be a fair trade. What do you think? OK, I'll consider giving you $150 for it if it is complete, has all of the manuals, and hasn't had any sloppy amateur quality soldering. From tonym at compusource.net Sun Aug 10 17:39:07 2008 From: tonym at compusource.net (Tony Mori) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 18:39:07 -0400 Subject: HERO1 For sale... References: <352984.78225.qm@web52610.mail.re2.yahoo.com><489EACD0.5040406@brouhaha.com> <20080810151448.H67620@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <000a01c8fb39$e707b9d0$9864a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2008 6:16 PM Subject: Re: HERO1 For sale... > AtomKey wrote: >> I am interested in purchasing a HERO1 (fro heathkit). >> The original asking price from 1979 - 1982 was about $1,500.00 >> I think $150.00 would be a fair trade. What do you think? > > OK, I'll consider giving you $150 for it if it is complete, has all of the > manuals, and hasn't had any sloppy amateur quality soldering. > I think you have it backawards....AtomKey is LOOKING for a Hero 1 for $150. Then again, my sarcasm-detector was buzzing ever so slightly ;) Of course, from what I've seen the past few years on eBay, I think he's missing a zero on the end of his price. It seems they are as valuable today, as they were back then, if not more! You VERY RARELY see one go for under $500, and that is usually incomplete, non-working units that need parts and repair to function. T From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Sun Aug 10 17:50:25 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 22:50:25 +0000 Subject: HERO1 For sale... In-Reply-To: <000a01c8fb39$e707b9d0$9864a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com> References: <20080810151448.H67620@shell.lmi.net> <000a01c8fb39$e707b9d0$9864a8c0@nclmiami.ncl.com> Message-ID: <20080810225025.GA1587@usap.gov> On Sun, Aug 10, 2008 at 06:39:07PM -0400, Tony Mori wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Fred Cisin" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Sunday, August 10, 2008 6:16 PM > Subject: Re: HERO1 For sale... > > > >AtomKey wrote: > >>I am interested in purchasing a HERO1 (fro heathkit). > >>The original asking price from 1979 - 1982 was about $1,500.00 > >>I think $150.00 would be a fair trade. What do you think? > > > >OK, I'll consider giving you $150 for it if it is complete, has all of the > >manuals, and hasn't had any sloppy amateur quality soldering. > > > > I think you have it backawards....AtomKey is LOOKING for a Hero 1 for $150. > Then again, my sarcasm-detector was buzzing ever so slightly ;) Most likely. > Of course, from what I've seen the past few years on eBay, I think he's > missing a zero on the end of his price. For one in good shape, sure. > It seems they are as valuable today, as they were back then, if not more! > You VERY RARELY see one go for > under $500, and that is usually incomplete, non-working units that need > parts and repair to function. I would be happy to pay three times what the OP is asking for one that I didn't have to rebuild (but a more likely scenario is paying three times for one that I _would_ have to strip and rebuild). The HERO1 is nice, but I'm happy to have an RB5X myself. If I could only figure out why the speech board is so wonky, I'd be happier, though. For some odd reason, it really, really cares what vendor/model/type of 8255 drives it. The best results I've gotten so far is with an OKI 82C55. I'm told that a real 8255 (not 8255A) is the "best", but I don't have any on hand (despite having about a dozen unique varieties) and the next plane is still over 2 months away. Is there anything that specifically distinguishes the HERO1 from other "personal robots" of the 1980s era other than the Heathkit name? I've never seen one up close, so I don't know what makes it special. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 10-Aug-2008 at 22:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -64.1 F (-53.4 C) Windchill -106.7 F (-77.1 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 18.0 kts Grid 20 Barometer 670.8 mb (10977 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Aug 10 18:14:28 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 19:14:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Forgotten PC History Message-ID: <35707.68.28.243.122.1218410068.squirrel@mail.neurotica.com> On Sun, August 10, 2008 1:10 pm, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Dave McGuire wrote: >> On Aug 9, 2008, at 3:49 PM, Philip Belben wrote: >>> That makes sense. I think someone said it already: if the chip was a >>> custom job for a lowish-volume contract, Intel wouldn't want to go and >>> find a new packaging contractor for it. >> >> Did they actually outsource their packaging? > > That's actually a fairly common occurrence. I know it is now, but I didn't think it was in the 1960s and early 1970s. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Aug 10 18:46:44 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 17:46:44 -0600 Subject: More ETH Lilith goodies available. In-Reply-To: <489DDDB1.6000306@bluewin.ch> References: <489DDDB1.6000306@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <489F7DE4.4010106@jetnet.ab.ca> Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel wrote: I re-posted your message to fpga-cpu as the talk was about stack machines. > Those with an interest in the ETH Lilith Modula-2 should point their > FTP clients to > ftp://jdreesen.dyndns.org/ftp/lilith > From fpga-cpu rtstofer wrote: >> Even with out front panels, here is some food for thought >> for a nice machine that is begging to be re-implimented again >> in hardware. >> >> ------------------- >> Those with an interest in the ETH Lilith Modula-2 should point > their FTP >> clients to >> ftp://jdreesen.dyndns.org/ftp/lilith >> >> where they will find plenty of data concerning that machine. >> >> Most important is a binary image of the Lilith Systemdisk, and a >> directory containing all files ( more then 700..) of that > systemdisk. >> Among these files are : >> >> Medos binaries and source code. >> Modula-2 compiler binaries with source code. >> Lilith system utilities with source code. >> Bootfiles and system files. >> Microcode sources and assembler >> Manual >> >> >> Also available are hardware docu and some screenshots. >> >> Enjoy , >> >> Jos Dreesen >> >> Server is on a basic DSL line, so download speeds will vary.... >> --------------- >> > > I have always been a huge fan of Niklaus Wirth and I have attempted > to build a similar processor for the P4 P-Code. I really liked using > UCSD Pascal in the early days until the licenses were revoked. > Bummer... > > The Lilith project is VERY interesting. It will be quite easy to > increase the speed by an order of magnitude. The 64 bit memory will > be an issue when using FPGA development boards. I'll have to look > into that. > > I have been banging your DSL all morning downloading everything in > sight. > > The only retro projects I am excited about are those with complete > software. > > I'm going to be looking very hard at this project. > > Richard > > > > From legalize at xmission.com Sun Aug 10 18:53:39 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 17:53:39 -0600 Subject: HERO1 For sale... In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 10 Aug 2008 22:50:25 -0000. <20080810225025.GA1587@usap.gov> Message-ID: In article <20080810225025.GA1587 at usap.gov>, Ethan Dicks writes: > The HERO1 is nice, but I'm happy to have an RB5X myself. [...] I hadn't heard of this before, but the first google hit turned up a nice web site for old robots: -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Sun Aug 10 18:58:23 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 17:58:23 -0600 Subject: More ETH Lilith goodies available. In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 10 Aug 2008 17:46:44 -0600. <489F7DE4.4010106@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: I have some of the Eve machines that are successors to the Lilith, but alas I have no docs and have to do some repairs in order to get a fully working system (no mouse, no display, no keyboard). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Aug 10 18:59:33 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 19:59:33 -0400 Subject: Forgotten PC History In-Reply-To: <35707.68.28.243.122.1218410068.squirrel@mail.neurotica.com> References: <35707.68.28.243.122.1218410068.squirrel@mail.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <489F80E5.2020601@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Sun, August 10, 2008 1:10 pm, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> Dave McGuire wrote: >>> On Aug 9, 2008, at 3:49 PM, Philip Belben wrote: >>>> That makes sense. I think someone said it already: if the chip was a >>>> custom job for a lowish-volume contract, Intel wouldn't want to go and >>>> find a new packaging contractor for it. >>> Did they actually outsource their packaging? >> That's actually a fairly common occurrence. > > I know it is now, but I didn't think it was in the 1960s and early 1970s. I know IBM's had a packaging offering at least going back to the 70s. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Sun Aug 10 18:59:33 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 19:59:33 -0400 Subject: Forgotten PC History In-Reply-To: <35707.68.28.243.122.1218410068.squirrel@mail.neurotica.com> References: <35707.68.28.243.122.1218410068.squirrel@mail.neurotica.com> Message-ID: <489F80E5.2020601@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Sun, August 10, 2008 1:10 pm, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> Dave McGuire wrote: >>> On Aug 9, 2008, at 3:49 PM, Philip Belben wrote: >>>> That makes sense. I think someone said it already: if the chip was a >>>> custom job for a lowish-volume contract, Intel wouldn't want to go and >>>> find a new packaging contractor for it. >>> Did they actually outsource their packaging? >> That's actually a fairly common occurrence. > > I know it is now, but I didn't think it was in the 1960s and early 1970s. I know IBM's had a packaging offering at least going back to the 70s. Peace... Sridhar From cclist at sydex.com Sun Aug 10 19:11:35 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 17:11:35 -0700 Subject: IC packages / was Re: Forgotten PC History In-Reply-To: <489F5812.B7657D3B@cs.ubc.ca> References: <489C7C5F.7000008@jbrain.com>, <489F5812.B7657D3B@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <489F2147.30164.C3475B3@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Aug 2008 at 13:05, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Not definitive as to when the DIP was first introduced, but a couple of datapoints: > - 1965 TI catalog shows only flatpacks > - 1966 Fairchild catalog shows flatpacks, round cans (metal and epoxy), > and 14 and 16-pin DIP packages. > The DIP packages are also referred to as being "plug-in packages". From: http://www.hbci.com/~wenonah/history/edpart6.htm "For both linear and digital ICs, packaging problems had to be overcome. Transistor packages were found to lack sufficient heat-sinking capability and an adequate number of interconnections. One solution was the flatpack, created by Yung Tao while at Texas Instruments. The original flatpack had 10 leads, and measured 1/4 x 1/8 inch. In 1964 Fairchild's Bryant ("Buck") Rogers fostered. the invention of the dual-inline package. The original DIP had 14 leads, and looked just as it does today. The same year, Martin LepSelter of Bell Labs invented the beam lead as a mechanical and electrical interconnection between the IC and its case." Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Sun Aug 10 19:50:05 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 00:50:05 +0000 Subject: HERO1 For sale... In-Reply-To: References: <20080810225025.GA1587@usap.gov> Message-ID: <20080811005005.GA22840@usap.gov> On Sun, Aug 10, 2008 at 05:53:39PM -0600, Richard wrote: > > In article <20080810225025.GA1587 at usap.gov>, > Ethan Dicks writes: > > > The HERO1 is nice, but I'm happy to have an RB5X myself. [...] > > I hadn't heard of this before, but the first google hit turned up a > nice web site for old robots: Yep... that's it - bottom left corner, second from the left. It's the one I post about from time to time because of the INS8073 CPU. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 11-Aug-2008 at 00:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -65.2 F (-54.0 C) Windchill -105.8 F (-76.5 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 15.6 kts Grid 11 Barometer 671.1 mb (10966 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From schwepes at moog.netaxs.com Mon Aug 11 00:01:58 2008 From: schwepes at moog.netaxs.com (schwepes at moog.netaxs.com) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 01:01:58 -0400 (EDT) Subject: dial-up experiences (was Re: question aaout ISP's) In-Reply-To: <489C9AE1.70209@gmail.com> References: <20080807215008.GA13516@brevard.conman.org>, <20080808041900.GA3166@usap.gov>, <489C726B.20909@gmail.com> <489C1739.17408.553B93@cclist.sydex.com> <489C9AE1.70209@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Aug 2008, Jules Richardson wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > My own house has its share of "stream of consciousness" wiring, but > > it has a utilities plenum running the length of the building in the > > basement where all of the plumbing, heavy-gauge wiring and large > > heating ducts are run. So I'm better off than most. > > Heh, no such luck here. The house has been semi-rewired in recent past and > it's a total rats' nest down in the basement. As the place was once a working > farm, the service panels look more like something befitting a factory - > breakers and wires aplenty! It's on the list to trace it all out sometime so > that when things do go wrong fault-finding will be a lot easier. > > The various out-buildings are a real mix of above-ground and below-ground > power feeds, original 1940's wiring and fuseboxes, more modern cabling, and > "home-made" stuff using any old fixtures and power cord. There's even a pair > of enormous 150W light bulbs in the garage that look like they might have been > hanging on since the '50s... > > For the building where the vintage computers will live, I'm thinking I'll put > a new cable run out to there from the house, fit a new breaker unit, and give > it both 120V and 240V. Cat-5 for network, and RS-232 just for the heck of it - > I'm sure I'll find a use for it. > > Oh, I found an ancient fusebox behind a panel in one of the bathrooms (really) > a few weeks ago - it's got power, but no amount of investigation has yet > revealed what it's there for :-) > > cheers > > Jules > Okay, I have a similar configuration in my attic. What happened was that the first electric went to that box. When the service was upgraded, the new box went to the basement and a line came up to the attic currently off of a fifty amp circuit that goes to a fusebox in the basement and then to the attic fusebox. i have found old wiring positions in the wall that because of long dead wiring had no voltage but were still on live lines. They looked like a fire waiting to happen. This house dates from 1930. My previous house was wired in 1905 and I was an early user of compact florescents because I felt a need to keep the current down on some of the wiring. This had also been upgraded at some point after WWII but in an interesting way. The old box was a rat's nest of wires and they ran wire to the new fusebox leaving the rest of the house as is. You could tell when the fridge came on because the lights dimmed. I'm surprized the previous owner didn't burn the place down. The fridge was at the end of a medium duty extention cord. I upgraded the service and worked on the electricity line by line starting with the most easily obtainable first floor boxes. bs From classiccmp at crash.com Mon Aug 11 00:32:23 2008 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 22:32:23 -0700 Subject: Terak 8510 system on eBay (# 300248208909) Message-ID: <489FCEE7.5080908@crash.com> It's listed for $199 plus shipping for the main unit, an 8512 additional 8" floppy, and an 8532-1 monitor. Includes keyboard, some floppies, and some manuals. It's been discussed here before, but in brief: Significant LSI-11 based system with bitmapped graphics, perhaps best known for it's use as a platform for the UCSD p-System. No connection to the seller. Was tempted, but can't really justify it given some other upcoming expenses. But they sound like pretty neat systems to mess about with... See http://www.threedee.com/jcm/terak/ for details and other links. --S. From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 11 00:56:21 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 01:56:21 -0400 Subject: More ETH Lilith goodies available In-Reply-To: <656339.25897.qm@web37103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <656339.25897.qm@web37103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5B9498DC-2C12-4907-AA87-17D689A9AB26@neurotica.com> On Aug 10, 2008, at 3:55 PM, Julian Skidmore wrote: >> CPLD's are cheap and easy to program now days. >> I suspect getting high speed 2901's and proms >> for any micro-programed machine is tricky. > > Over the past 6 to 9 months I've become rather intrigued about Lilith. > > One of the great things about the design of MCode (the Lilith's > stack-based bytecode) is that it lends itself to being emulated > directly by a Microcontroller, rather than emulating the machine at > a Microcode level (170ns / microinstruction). > > My preliminary calculations imply that a low-end 60MHz ARM > Microcontroller attached to 128k (or 256K of RAM) could emulate a > Lilith in this way at full-speed even if it didn't have a proper > memory bus (i.e you access the RAM via I/O Ports). I'd love to see something like this happen. Are the Lilith's internals documented well enough to allow for something like this? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From julianskidmore at yahoo.com Sun Aug 10 14:55:52 2008 From: julianskidmore at yahoo.com (Julian Skidmore) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 12:55:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: More ETH Lilith goodies available Message-ID: <656339.25897.qm@web37103.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi folks, >CPLD's are cheap and easy to program now days. > I suspect getting high speed 2901's and proms > for any micro-programed machine is tricky. Over the past 6 to 9 months I've become rather intrigued about Lilith. One of the great things about the design of MCode (the Lilith's stack-based bytecode) is that it lends itself to being emulated directly by a Microcontroller, rather than emulating the machine at a Microcode level (170ns / microinstruction). My preliminary calculations imply that a low-end 60MHz ARM Microcontroller attached to 128k (or 256K of RAM) could emulate a Lilith in this way at full-speed even if it didn't have a proper memory bus (i.e you access the RAM via I/O Ports). > I suspect 16bit addressing and data seems to be the limiting > factor of this design. The later Liliths accessed memory as 2 banks of 64KW => 256Kb in total. >>> But can one build the hardware from scratch? >>> None of this software emulation. Well, I suppose the ARM version would be software emulation, but on the other hand, it's a dedicated hardware / software combination and it'd probably give you a Lilith for around $12! ... I wonder if MIT & India would be interested ;-) -cheers from Julz @P From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Aug 11 01:33:22 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 01:33:22 -0500 Subject: Terak 8510 system on eBay (# 300248208909) In-Reply-To: <489FCEE7.5080908@crash.com> References: <489FCEE7.5080908@crash.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730808102333s71d1a6a6mf878daa87ff6dfe9@mail.gmail.com> Is that system complete? I thought it was just the drive, kybd and monitor, no CPU. Of course, I've never actually seen a Terak... On 8/11/08, Steven M Jones wrote: > It's listed for $199 plus shipping for the main unit, an 8512 additional > 8" floppy, and an 8532-1 monitor. Includes keyboard, some floppies, > and some manuals. > > It's been discussed here before, but in brief: Significant LSI-11 based > system with bitmapped graphics, perhaps best known for it's use as a > platform for the UCSD p-System. > > No connection to the seller. Was tempted, but can't really justify it > given some other upcoming expenses. But they sound like pretty neat > systems to mess about with... See http://www.threedee.com/jcm/terak/ for > details and other links. > > --S. > > -- silent700.blogspot.com Retrocomputing and collecting in the Chicago area: http://chiclassiccomp.org From schwepes at moog.netaxs.com Mon Aug 11 01:37:04 2008 From: schwepes at moog.netaxs.com (schwepes at moog.netaxs.com) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 02:37:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Forgotten PC History In-Reply-To: References: <489C7C5F.7000008@jbrain.com> <200808082121.55813.rtellason@verizon.net> <489CF676.7050404@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 8 Aug 2008, dwight elvey wrote: > > > From: eric at brouhaha.com > ---snip---> > > Possibly whatever specific company Intel was contracting with to supply > > lead frames and ceramic packages didn't yet offer higher pin count > > packages, but they obviously were available from some vendors since > > other semiconductor companies like Fairchild and TI were using them. > > > > Eric > > Hi > My understanding was that Intel wasn't using them and they > didn't expect to sell enough uP chips to make it practical to use > a larger size. Later designs did use more pins. > Dwight > > ____________________________________________________________ The 8008 was only introduced a year after the 4004 which was introduced in 1971. I can't find a pin out for either of them but I suspect that they might be pin compatable so that the upper four bits would be simply not used if the 8008 was put in a system designed for a 4004. They were used mostly in industrial control systems according to my college text of only slightly later. Unlike the 8080 and later, they used PMOS logic and multiplexed addressing. I cannot find a pin out or instruction set. Oh, the 8008 had 48 instructions as opposed to 78 for the 8080 family. bs From classiccmp at crash.com Mon Aug 11 01:45:22 2008 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 23:45:22 -0700 Subject: Terak 8510 system on eBay (# 300248208909) In-Reply-To: <51ea77730808102333s71d1a6a6mf878daa87ff6dfe9@mail.gmail.com> References: <489FCEE7.5080908@crash.com> <51ea77730808102333s71d1a6a6mf878daa87ff6dfe9@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <489FE002.3040705@crash.com> Jason T wrote: > Is that system complete? I thought it was just the drive, kybd and > monitor, no CPU. Of course, I've never actually seen a Terak... Based on what I see on the web, that's a complete hardware system. And if any of the floppies are bootable, you're in business. Another reference: http://www.scribd.com/doc/1034053/Tech-History-Texas-Instruments-terak-product --S. From schwepes at moog.netaxs.com Mon Aug 11 02:00:27 2008 From: schwepes at moog.netaxs.com (schwepes at moog.netaxs.com) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 03:00:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Flat Packs In-Reply-To: References: <489C7C5F.7000008@jbrain.com>, <001f01c8fa02$c7e06670$0301a8c0@hal9000>, <489DC0A1.8030209@garlic.com> <489DAC33.10852.683271D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: TI's TTL Data Book (1976) offered flat packages. I don't remember ever using such. bs On Sat, 9 Aug 2008, Rick Bensene wrote: > I've only come across two electronic calculators that use flatpack IC's. > > In 1965, Victor Comptometer made an attempt to build a fully-electronic > desktop electronic calculator, called the Victor 3900, that proved to > push the state of the art just a little too far. The 3900 used > round-case flat-pack IC's, with 22 leads, with spot-weld type technology > used to connect the leads to the circuit traces on the circuit board. > Unfortunately, the yields of the ICs were not very high, and there were > lots of infant mortality problems with the chips dying once the machines > were in the customer's hands. The machine, had it been successful, > would have put Victor in the enviable position of making a massive jump > in technology over the electronics used by anyone else at the time, and > would have kept them ahead of the game for quite a long time. There's > some information on the Old Calculator Museum website exhibit on the > Victor 14-322 (a machine made significantly later using very > conventional technology) at > http://oldcalculatormuseum.com/vic14-322.html. > > > In around 1970, the Casio AL-2000 > (http://oldcalculatormuseum.com/casal2k.html), an early small-scale MOS > IC-based programmable (in very limited form) calculator, used two 24-pin > flat-pack integrated circuits made by Philco, in ceramic bases with gold > lids and leads in the arithmetic logic unit. These are medium-scale > devices, one of which (part number SC-1770) is a bit-serial adder adder, > and the other chip (SC1771) is a complimenter IC, date coded in late > 1968 to early 1969. The chips are surface mounted, again using some > kind of spot-welding to connect the leads of the device to the traces on > the circuit board. > > Rick Bensene > The Old Calculator Museum > http://oldcalculatormuseum.com > > > From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Mon Aug 11 02:34:20 2008 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 00:34:20 -0700 Subject: HERO1 For sale... References: <20080810225025.GA1587@usap.gov> <20080811005005.GA22840@usap.gov> Message-ID: <001301c8fb84$ab971800$0301a8c0@hal9000> Ethan ( et al ); Is the INS8073 the one that has a Tiny BASIC built-in or runs out of a ROM ? Is it a Tom Pittman type Tiny BASIC ? Thanks. Best regards, Steven P.S. I've used the Rockwell chip that has FORTH built-in .... > > Ethan Dicks writes: > > > > > The HERO1 is nice, but I'm happy to have an RB5X myself. [...] > > > > I hadn't heard of this before, but the first google hit turned up a > > nice web site for old robots: > > Yep... that's it - bottom left corner, second from the left. > > It's the one I post about from time to time because of the INS8073 CPU. > > -ethan From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Aug 11 02:29:28 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 08:29:28 +0100 Subject: Forgotten PC History In-Reply-To: References: <489C7C5F.7000008@jbrain.com> <200808082121.55813.rtellason@verizon.net> <489CF676.7050404@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <489FEA58.8030203@dunnington.plus.com> On 11/08/2008 07:37, schwepes at moog.netaxs.com wrote: > The 8008 was only introduced a year after the 4004 which was > introduced in 1971. I can't find a pin out for either of them > but I suspect that they might be pin compatable so that the > upper four bits would be simply not used if the 8008 was put > in a system designed for a 4004. Not even close, I'm afraid. The 4004 is a 16-pin device with Vdd (-10V) and Vss (+5V) on the centre pins of the two sides, the 4 data bits on pins 1-4, and the two clock phases and SYNC on pins 6-8. The 8008 is an 18-pin device with Vcc (+5V) and Vss (-9V) on diagonally opposite corners (pins 1 and 10), D0-D7 on pins 2-9, and the clock phases and SYNC on the other side (pins 14-16): 4004 8008 __ __ __ __ D0 | U | CMRAM0 (-9V) Vss | U | INT D1 | | CMRAM1 D0 | | READY D2 | | CMRAM2 D1 | | phi1 D3 | | CMRAM3 D2 | | phi2 (+5V) Vss | | Vdd (-10V) D3 | | SYNC phi1 | | CMROM D4 | | S0 phi2 | | TEST D5 | | S1 SYNC |_____| RESET D6 | | S2 D7 |_____| Vcc (+5V) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Mon Aug 11 03:56:39 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 08:56:39 +0000 Subject: 4004/8008 (was Re: Forgotten PC History) In-Reply-To: <489FEA58.8030203@dunnington.plus.com> References: <489C7C5F.7000008@jbrain.com> <200808082121.55813.rtellason@verizon.net> <489CF676.7050404@brouhaha.com> <489FEA58.8030203@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <20080811085639.GB11609@usap.gov> On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 08:29:28AM +0100, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 11/08/2008 07:37, schwepes at moog.netaxs.com wrote: > > >The 8008 was only introduced a year after the 4004 which was > >introduced in 1971. I can't find a pin out for either of them > >but I suspect that they might be pin compatable... > > Not even close, I'm afraid. The 4004 is a 16-pin device with Vdd (-10V) > and Vss (+5V) on the centre pins of the two sides, the 4 data bits on > pins 1-4, and the two clock phases and SYNC on pins 6-8. The 8008 is an > 18-pin device with Vcc (+5V) and Vss (-9V) on diagonally opposite > corners (pins 1 and 10), D0-D7 on pins 2-9, and the clock phases and > SYNC on the other side (pins 14-16): > > 4004 8008 > __ __ __ __ > D0 | U | CMRAM0 (-9V) Vss | U | INT > D1 | | CMRAM1 D0 | | READY > D2 | | CMRAM2 D1 | | phi1 > D3 | | CMRAM3 D2 | | phi2 > (+5V) Vss | | Vdd (-10V) D3 | | SYNC > phi1 | | CMROM D4 | | S0 > phi2 | | TEST D5 | | S1 > SYNC |_____| RESET D6 | | S2 > D7 |_____| Vcc (+5V) > Hmm... I happen to have a couple of 4004 chips (one pulled from a non-UPC barcode scanner, the other from a commercial kitchen scale), and I've long fantasized about building some showcase 4004 circuit, probably a digital clock. I don't happen to have the 4004 datasheet handy (and can't get to it for a number of hours), but the -10V Vdd requirement makes me wonder if it's possible/feasible to use a pair of ganged ICL7660s (still made by Dallas/Maxim) to generate it. This chip came up recently as a possibility for generating -5V Vdd for 4116 DRAMs (and I think the concensus was that it would probably be adequate for up to 16 chips), so I do recall that it can only source a few mA (each 4116 needs a few dozen uA)... I don't see a GND pin on the 4004, so I'm at a loss to estimate what it would require for Vdd. Anyone know or can check easily? Also, does anyone know about any sort of 4004 emulator or simulator? I wouldn't mind trying my hand at some code *before* trying to build out the hardware. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 11-Aug-2008 at 08:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -68.4 F (-55.8 C) Windchill -111.4 F (-79.7 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 17.0 kts Grid 23 Barometer 671.5 mb (10950 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Mon Aug 11 04:00:55 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 09:00:55 +0000 Subject: HERO1 For sale... In-Reply-To: <001301c8fb84$ab971800$0301a8c0@hal9000> References: <20080810225025.GA1587@usap.gov> <20080811005005.GA22840@usap.gov> <001301c8fb84$ab971800$0301a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <20080811090055.GC11609@usap.gov> On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 12:34:20AM -0700, Scanning wrote: > Ethan ( et al ); > > Is the INS8073 the one that has a Tiny BASIC built-in or runs out of a ROM ? It has an onboard ROM that takes up a known part of the 64K memory map. The reference design is the CPU, a clock, level shifters for serial in/out, an 8-bit SRAM (at least 1K), and some resistors to set the baud rate. No external ROM required (but you can stick a ROM on it with TinyBASIC code in it and it will autoexecute). > Is it a Tom Pittman type Tiny BASIC ? Thanks. Yes. If you are used to working with Tom Pittman's TinyBASIC, the INS8073 will be a familiar environment (I can't guarantee they are identical, but they are certainly peas-in-a-pod). There were a few articles back in the day in Byte and Dr Dobbs, etc., about the chip and its BASIC. I think they are easy to google for. > Best regards, Steven > > P.S. I've used the Rockwell chip that has FORTH built-in .... I've heard of that, but haven't used it. Same goes with the RCA 1805 w/FORTH onboard. I know lots about the 1802, but not the ones with FORTH. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 11-Aug-2008 at 08:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -68.4 F (-55.8 C) Windchill -111.4 F (-79.7 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 17.0 kts Grid 23 Barometer 671.5 mb (10950 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From schwepes at moog.netaxs.com Mon Aug 11 05:09:07 2008 From: schwepes at moog.netaxs.com (schwepes at moog.netaxs.com) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 06:09:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Forgotten PC History In-Reply-To: <489FEA58.8030203@dunnington.plus.com> References: <489C7C5F.7000008@jbrain.com> <200808082121.55813.rtellason@verizon.net> <489CF676.7050404@brouhaha.com> <489FEA58.8030203@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: And then the 1974 8080 seems to be even more different. It doesn't even look like the same design philosophies on any of the chips. bs On Mon, 11 Aug 2008, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 11/08/2008 07:37, schwepes at moog.netaxs.com wrote: > > > The 8008 was only introduced a year after the 4004 which was > > introduced in 1971. I can't find a pin out for either of them > > but I suspect that they might be pin compatable so that the > > upper four bits would be simply not used if the 8008 was put > > in a system designed for a 4004. > > Not even close, I'm afraid. The 4004 is a 16-pin device with Vdd (-10V) > and Vss (+5V) on the centre pins of the two sides, the 4 data bits on > pins 1-4, and the two clock phases and SYNC on pins 6-8. The 8008 is an > 18-pin device with Vcc (+5V) and Vss (-9V) on diagonally opposite > corners (pins 1 and 10), D0-D7 on pins 2-9, and the clock phases and > SYNC on the other side (pins 14-16): > > 4004 8008 > __ __ __ __ > D0 | U | CMRAM0 (-9V) Vss | U | INT > D1 | | CMRAM1 D0 | | READY > D2 | | CMRAM2 D1 | | phi1 > D3 | | CMRAM3 D2 | | phi2 > (+5V) Vss | | Vdd (-10V) D3 | | SYNC > phi1 | | CMROM D4 | | S0 > phi2 | | TEST D5 | | S1 > SYNC |_____| RESET D6 | | S2 > D7 |_____| Vcc (+5V) > > > -- > Pete Peter Turnbull > Network Manager > University of York > From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Aug 11 07:36:45 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 13:36:45 +0100 Subject: 4004/8008 (was Re: Forgotten PC History) In-Reply-To: <20080811085639.GB11609@usap.gov> References: <489C7C5F.7000008@jbrain.com> <200808082121.55813.rtellason@verizon.net> <489CF676.7050404@brouhaha.com> <489FEA58.8030203@dunnington.plus.com> <20080811085639.GB11609@usap.gov> Message-ID: <48A0325D.5060507@dunnington.plus.com> On 11/08/2008 09:56, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 08:29:28AM +0100, Pete Turnbull wrote: >> 4004 8008 >> __ __ __ __ >> D0 | U | CMRAM0 (-9V) Vss | U | INT >> D1 | | CMRAM1 D0 | | READY >> D2 | | CMRAM2 D1 | | phi1 >> D3 | | CMRAM3 D2 | | phi2 >> (+5V) Vss | | Vdd (-10V) D3 | | SYNC >> phi1 | | CMROM D4 | | S0 >> phi2 | | TEST D5 | | S1 >> SYNC |_____| RESET D6 | | S2 >> D7 |_____| Vcc (+5V) >> > I don't happen to have the 4004 datasheet handy (and can't get to it > for a number of hours), but the -10V Vdd requirement makes me wonder > if it's possible/feasible to use a pair of ganged ICL7660s (still made > by Dallas/Maxim) to generate it. It takes about 30mA to run a 4004. > I don't see a GND pin on the 4004, so I'm at a loss to estimate > what it would require for Vdd. Anyone know or can check easily? Some data sheets list Vdd = -15V and Vss = 0V, so the -10/+5 is just a convenience. Logic levels are relative to Vss. > Also, does anyone know about any sort of 4004 emulator or simulator? > I wouldn't mind trying my hand at some code *before* trying to build > out the hardware. The whole manual is available at http://www.intel.com/museum/archives/4004ip.htm I came across this while looking for something else: http://tams-www.informatik.uni-hamburg.de/applets/hades/webdemos/80-mcs4/intro/mcs4.html Never tried it, but it might be a place to start. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Mon Aug 11 08:47:58 2008 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 09:47:58 -0400 Subject: HERO1 For sale... In-Reply-To: <20080811090055.GC11609@usap.gov> References: <20080810225025.GA1587@usap.gov> <20080811005005.GA22840@usap.gov> <001301c8fb84$ab971800$0301a8c0@hal9000> <20080811090055.GC11609@usap.gov> Message-ID: <5f7d1b0e0808110647n584bbb10gd4887c9581f936fd@mail.gmail.com> Here's a guy who specializes in collecting Heros: http://www.robotswanted.com/ He also trades in vintage robotics and has quite a collection. I've been trolling for a Hero 1 for quite a while, and I've never seen one on eBay for less than $500, in any condition. From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Mon Aug 11 09:05:59 2008 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (Stephane Tsacas) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 16:05:59 +0200 Subject: Computer collectors are no longer the dweebiest people in the In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2008/8/7 Sellam Ismail > Tony blathered: > > > I don't collect in the hope that I'll be able to sell them later for > > more money. > > No, Tony, I believe you are entirely unique in this regard as everyone > else subscribed here is just in it for the money. > Well, even if I wish, I won't be able to make money out of any vintage computer, because I'm in France, and there is not much to collect here, or it's very expensive. And given the ratio USD/Euro, I'm on the wrong side. Now, if someone has a small 11/23 (or 03) for sale, make me an offer ;-) (I'll glady accept a vax11/750 if you're in Paris or nearby) St?phane From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Aug 11 09:08:43 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 07:08:43 -0700 Subject: 4004/8008 (was Re: Forgotten PC History) In-Reply-To: <20080811085639.GB11609@usap.gov> References: <489C7C5F.7000008@jbrain.com> <200808082121.55813.rtellason@verizon.net> <489CF676.7050404@brouhaha.com> <489FEA58.8030203@dunnington.plus.com> <20080811085639.GB11609@usap.gov> Message-ID: > From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov >> > Hmm... I happen to have a couple of 4004 chips (one pulled from a > non-UPC barcode scanner, the other from a commercial kitchen scale), > and I've long fantasized about building some showcase 4004 circuit, > probably a digital clock. > > I don't happen to have the 4004 datasheet handy (and can't get to it > for a number of hours), but the -10V Vdd requirement makes me wonder > if it's possible/feasible to use a pair of ganged ICL7660s (still made > by Dallas/Maxim) to generate it. This chip came up recently as a > possibility for generating -5V Vdd for 4116 DRAMs (and I think the > concensus was that it would probably be adequate for up to 16 chips), > so I do recall that it can only source a few mA (each 4116 needs a > few dozen uA)... > > I don't see a GND pin on the 4004, so I'm at a loss to estimate > what it would require for Vdd. Anyone know or can check easily? > > Also, does anyone know about any sort of 4004 emulator or simulator? > I wouldn't mind trying my hand at some code *before* trying to build > out the hardware. > > -ethan > > Hi Ethan The chip is P-mos and it doesn't directly connect to ttl. The down is very week and only pulls up with any strength. There were a couple chip interfaces ( 4008 and 4009 ) that created TTL level signals to run standard RAM/ROM. The only issue here is that one lost the instruction stream so that one couldn' t take advantage of any RAM ot ROM specific commands. The later came out with a single chip version of the interface( I think it was 4269 ). These come up on ebay every now and then. The manual on Al's site shows a circuit to convert the Pmos levels to a TTL eprom ( used on the SIM4-1 ). The circuit does use 4002-1 and 4002-2 RAMs. The 4001/4002 had built in I/O. They would watch the instuction steam and execute an I/O operation when the 4004 executed the fetched instruction. It is easier to modify a -12V supply to power the -10v than to make a converter. Many floppy disk supplies are fine for this. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Your PC, mobile phone, and online services work together like never before. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/108587394/direct/01/ From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Mon Aug 11 09:23:55 2008 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 10:23:55 -0400 Subject: 4004/8008 (was Re: Forgotten PC History) References: <489C7C5F.7000008@jbrain.com> <200808082121.55813.rtellason@verizon.net> <489CF676.7050404@brouhaha.com> <489FEA58.8030203@dunnington.plus.com> <20080811085639.GB11609@usap.gov> Message-ID: <18592.19323.670285.383421@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Ethan" == Ethan Dicks writes: Ethan> Hmm... I happen to have a couple of 4004 chips (one pulled Ethan> from a non-UPC barcode scanner, the other from a commercial Ethan> kitchen scale), and I've long fantasized about building some Ethan> showcase 4004 circuit, probably a digital clock. Or you could do like a classmate of mine did in 1973-1974 and build a PC. Not easy, though; I remember a large wire-wrap board with over 100 chips on it. paul From ray at arachelian.com Mon Aug 11 10:29:59 2008 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 11:29:59 -0400 Subject: COBOL quote in the news In-Reply-To: <489BA401.3000306@ptdprolog.net> References: <489ABA22.8563.F6561BF@cclist.sydex.com> <489B3CB5.7070806@brouhaha.com> <489BA401.3000306@ptdprolog.net> Message-ID: <48A05AF7.2020508@arachelian.com> madodel wrote: > > Just prior to y2k they were paying large bonuses to get C programmers > to learn COBOL so the 100s of millions of lines of code could be > checked and patched. Large companies were desperate. I'm sure a lot > of these folks were canned after 2000 when all the Y2K nonsense > finally ended but I'm sure they aren't all retired. Sounds like what they really needed were rewrites, or perhaps (automated) language translators; say from Cobol to Java. (I say Java because the mindset of most corps out there is to hire the junior guys since they see programmers as cogs and would want a cheap source of labor, and since Java seems to be the Visual Basic of today, not so much in language complexity but rather in terms of the pool of available kids fresh out of college - as sad as that concept is... sigh...) Of course there'd be a lot of manual labor involved in bringing things up to standards as computer translated code is usually fuglier than the original. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Aug 11 10:30:22 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 08:30:22 -0700 Subject: Terak 8510 system on eBay Message-ID: <48A05B0E.9080403@bitsavers.org> > It's listed for $199 plus shipping for the main unit It's being watched. Thanks to sniping, and eBay hiding of the bidder name, there is no incentive to 'tag' anything with a bid any more. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 11 11:01:23 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 09:01:23 -0700 Subject: COBOL quote in the news In-Reply-To: <48A05AF7.2020508@arachelian.com> References: <489ABA22.8563.F6561BF@cclist.sydex.com>, <489BA401.3000306@ptdprolog.net>, <48A05AF7.2020508@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <489FFFE3.8480.170F4B@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Aug 2008 at 11:29, Ray Arachelian wrote: > Of course there'd be a lot of manual labor involved in bringing things > up to standards as computer translated code is usually fuglier than the > original. In particular, COBOL translated to Java would be very very fugly indeed--the languages are miles apart in terms of language-specific features (e.g. Does Java have subroutines that can be both open (i.e. fall through) and closed (i.e. as the object of a PERFORM--or worse, as part of a PERFORM...THRU)?). You'd have an easier time translating RPG to Java. I shudder to think of what trying to work on the result would look like--or even guaranteeing that it's computationaly equivalent. How about automated translation of GPSS/360 to SNOBOL? Or PL/I to Prolog? Has anyone had good results with automated translation of any programming language to any very different one? To me, the results of automated translation mostly look like Babelfish output and require one to spend as much time cleaning up the output as they would have spent rewriting it from scratch. Both require a detailed understanding of what the code does. Cheers, Chuck From jfoust at threedee.com Mon Aug 11 11:07:00 2008 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 11:07:00 -0500 Subject: Terak 8510 system on eBay (# 300248208909) In-Reply-To: <489FE002.3040705@crash.com> References: <489FCEE7.5080908@crash.com> <51ea77730808102333s71d1a6a6mf878daa87ff6dfe9@mail.gmail.com> <489FE002.3040705@crash.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20080811110331.06ef9b80@mail.threedee.com> At 01:45 AM 8/11/2008, Steven M Jones wrote: >Jason T wrote: >>Is that system complete? I thought it was just the drive, kybd and >>monitor, no CPU. Of course, I've never actually seen a Terak... > >Based on what I see on the web, that's a complete hardware system. And if any of the floppies are bootable, you're in business. Well, the listing does not claim that it is working. It could be empty on the inside as far you can tell from the outside, or it might power-up the first time you try. Of the half-dozen I have in the office basement - erhmmm - computer museum, none power-up any longer. I've resisted the urge to board-swap, waiting for the moment when Tony clones himself to properly debug and repair all antique computers across the globe. - John From legalize at xmission.com Mon Aug 11 11:22:31 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 10:22:31 -0600 Subject: Terak 8510 system on eBay (# 300248208909) In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 10 Aug 2008 22:32:23 -0700. <489FCEE7.5080908@crash.com> Message-ID: If anyone here is planning on sniping/bidding on this, please email me. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Mon Aug 11 11:23:58 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 10:23:58 -0600 Subject: 4004/8008 (was Re: Forgotten PC History) In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 11 Aug 2008 08:56:39 -0000. <20080811085639.GB11609@usap.gov> Message-ID: In article <20080811085639.GB11609 at usap.gov>, Ethan Dicks writes: > Hmm... I happen to have a couple of 4004 chips (one pulled from a > non-UPC barcode scanner, the other from a commercial kitchen scale), > and I've long fantasized about building some showcase 4004 circuit, > probably a digital clock. Wouldn't a terminal or calculator be the canonical circuit for which the 4004 was designed? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Aug 11 11:53:31 2008 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 10:53:31 -0600 Subject: pdp 11/70 in colorado Message-ID: <48A06E8B.6090106@e-bbes.com> Hi all, few month ago sombody on this list asked for a 11/70 in colorado. still interested ? Cheers From gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at Mon Aug 11 12:10:17 2008 From: gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at (DI Gerhard Kreuzer) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 19:10:17 +0200 Subject: pdp 11/70 in colorado Message-ID: <20080811191017.xnl5fwba1sg4kwkk@webmail.izone.at> Hi, yes, are you able to ship it, I pay shipment, and packaging, no question. Cheers Gerhard From dbetz at xlisper.com Mon Aug 11 12:18:11 2008 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 13:18:11 -0400 Subject: Panasonic HHC EPROMs? Message-ID: <6D57B5B5-F74E-43C6-B9FE-1E20C3DFC652@xlisper.com> I have 8 EPROMS in carriers, some MCM68764C and some MCM68766C. I believe they go with the Panasonic HHC but I'm not sure. In any case, I don't have an HHC anymore so I don't need them. Anyone interested? Send me your mailing address off-list and I'll send them to you. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Aug 11 13:37:22 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 11:37:22 -0700 Subject: Forgotten PC History In-Reply-To: References: <489C7C5F.7000008@jbrain.com> <200808082121.55813.rtellason@verizon.net> <489CF676.7050404@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <48A086E2.2020605@brouhaha.com> schwepes at moog.netaxs.com wrote: > The 8008 was only introduced a year after the 4004 which was > introduced in 1971. I can't find a pin out for either of them > but I suspect that they might be pin compatable so that the > upper four bits would be simply not used if the 8008 was put > in a system designed for a 4004. Not even close. The bus works significantly differently. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Aug 11 13:41:05 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 11:41:05 -0700 Subject: INS8073 (was Re: HERO1 For sale...) In-Reply-To: <001301c8fb84$ab971800$0301a8c0@hal9000> References: <20080810225025.GA1587@usap.gov> <20080811005005.GA22840@usap.gov> <001301c8fb84$ab971800$0301a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <48A087C1.8030903@brouhaha.com> Scanning wrote: > Is the INS8073 the one that has a Tiny BASIC built-in or runs out of a ROM ? Yes. > Is it a Tom Pittman type Tiny BASIC ? Thanks. How does one tell? It's in 2.5KB of ROM, so it's definitely a tinier BASIC than in the competing Intel 8051AH-BASIC and Zilog Z8671, both of which had 4KB of ROM. National called it "NIBL BASIC", although it is unclear how closely related the 8073 version is to their NIBL BASIC for the SC/MP, SC/MP II, or 8080. From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Aug 11 14:03:24 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 12:03:24 -0700 Subject: COBOL quote in the news In-Reply-To: <48A05AF7.2020508@arachelian.com> References: <489ABA22.8563.F6561BF@cclist.sydex.com> <489B3CB5.7070806@brouhaha.com> <489BA401.3000306@ptdprolog.net> <48A05AF7.2020508@arachelian.com> Message-ID: <48A08CFC.5080303@brouhaha.com> Ray Arachelian wrote: > Sounds like what they really needed were rewrites, Contrary to anything you may have seen in the press, it is FAR less expensive to simply hire experienced COBOL programmers to maintain it than to rewrite it. There are plenty of COBOL programmers out there; they definitely have NOT all retired. But you're going to have to pay good salaries, which is what the state is trying to avoid. > or perhaps (automated) language translators; say from Cobol to Java. If you do an automated translation, the result will just be COBOL that's written in Java. You won't be able to find *anyone* that's good at maintaining that mess. Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Mon Aug 11 14:08:27 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 12:08:27 -0700 Subject: 4004/8008 (was Re: Forgotten PC History) In-Reply-To: References: <489C7C5F.7000008@jbrain.com> <200808082121.55813.rtellason@verizon.net> <489CF676.7050404@brouhaha.com> <489FEA58.8030203@dunnington.plus.com> <20080811085639.GB11609@usap.gov> Message-ID: <48A08E2B.8000602@brouhaha.com> dwight elvey wrote: > There were a couple chip interfaces ( 4008 and 4009 ) [...] > The later came out with a single chip version of the > interface( I think it was 4269 ). 4289 The 4269 was a keyboard/display interface, conceptually similar to the 8279. From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Mon Aug 11 14:32:55 2008 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 12:32:55 -0700 Subject: Upgrading early BIOS In-Reply-To: <200808102111.m7ALBgoZ009926@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> References: <200808102111.m7ALBgoZ009926@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> Message-ID: BIOS for early 486 machines usually included two user defined disk types, often the highest numbered types (maybe 47 and 48). These allowed you to enter the number of cylinders heads and sectors. You might not to be able to enter the actual geometry for your drive. You'll probably be limited to 16 heads, 63 sectors and 1024 cylinders (504MiB). Whatever OS you install may be able to read the full disk capacity from the drive and use it all (ignoring the BIOS settings), but all files needed for booting will need to be below the 504 MiB boundary. Eric On Sun, Aug 10, 2008 at 2:11 PM, wrote: > One of my machines is an old Packard-Bell Legend 610 machine, to which I am > trying to fit a second hard drive. > > The machine will not recognize any modern (or semi-modern) hard drive I have > attempted to fit. I have tried various master/slave combinations, to no avail. > > My guess is that this is due to the BIOS being of am early type. The BIOS > chip is a socketed DIP package and the lettering on it is too faded to read. > The screen boot-up display is this: > > PhoenixBIOS(TM) A486 Version 1.01 > PB400 OPTI 486WB > Reference ID 08 > > Is this a reasonable guess? > > If so, what might be done by way of a BIOS upgrade? > > Thanks, > > Kurt > > From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Aug 11 14:41:27 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 15:41:27 -0400 Subject: INS8073 (was Re: HERO1 For sale...) In-Reply-To: <48A087C1.8030903@brouhaha.com> References: <20080810225025.GA1587@usap.gov> <20080811005005.GA22840@usap.gov> <001301c8fb84$ab971800$0301a8c0@hal9000> <48A087C1.8030903@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <48A095E7.1020308@neurotica.com> Eric Smith wrote: > It's in 2.5KB of ROM, so it's definitely a tinier BASIC than in the > competing Intel 8051AH-BASIC and Zilog Z8671, both of which had 4KB of ROM. Was there in fact an 8051AH-BASIC? I've worked extensively with 8052AH-BASIC, and have never heard of an 8051 version. The 8052 has 8KB of ROM, compared to the 8051's 4KB. The BASIC interpreter filled...and I mean FILLED...that 8KB. It's extraordinarily dense code. The Z8671's BASIC, on the other hand, fits in the first 2KB of ROM on that chip. -Dave -- Dave McGuire CocoNet Corp. From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Mon Aug 11 14:43:57 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 19:43:57 +0000 Subject: 4004/8008 (was Re: Forgotten PC History) In-Reply-To: <48A0325D.5060507@dunnington.plus.com> References: <489C7C5F.7000008@jbrain.com> <200808082121.55813.rtellason@verizon.net> <489CF676.7050404@brouhaha.com> <489FEA58.8030203@dunnington.plus.com> <20080811085639.GB11609@usap.gov> <48A0325D.5060507@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <20080811194357.GA29445@usap.gov> On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 01:36:45PM +0100, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 11/08/2008 09:56, Ethan Dicks wrote: > >I don't happen to have the 4004 datasheet handy (and can't get to it > >for a number of hours), but the -10V Vdd requirement makes me wonder > >if it's possible/feasible to use a pair of ganged ICL7660s (still made > >by Dallas/Maxim) to generate it. > > It takes about 30mA to run a 4004. OK. That might be a bit much for a pair of ICL7660s. If not, it's right on the edge. > >I don't see a GND pin on the 4004, so I'm at a loss to estimate > >what it would require for Vdd. Anyone know or can check easily? > > Some data sheets list Vdd = -15V and Vss = 0V, so the -10/+5 is just a > convenience. Logic levels are relative to Vss. Ah. OK. I've worked with DEC R-series logic (+10V/-15V power, +3V/GND signals), so I didn't assume anything about the logic levels. > >Also, does anyone know about any sort of 4004 emulator or simulator? > >I wouldn't mind trying my hand at some code *before* trying to build > >out the hardware. > > The whole manual is available at > http://www.intel.com/museum/archives/4004ip.htm Nice. Thanks. I'll grab that when the sats rise. > I came across this while looking for something else: > http://tams-www.informatik.uni-hamburg.de/applets/hades/webdemos/80-mcs4/intro/mcs4.html > > Never tried it, but it might be a place to start. Yes... I'll check that out, too. Thanks, -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 11-Aug-2008 at 19:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -78.7 F (-61.5 C) Windchill -123.7 F (-86.5 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 15.9 kts Grid 13 Barometer 671.6 mb (10947 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 11 14:59:05 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 12:59:05 -0700 Subject: Upgrading early BIOS In-Reply-To: <200808102111.m7ALBgoZ009926@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> References: <200808102111.m7ALBgoZ009926@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> Message-ID: <48A03799.1946.F0ADD4@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Aug 2008 at 14:11, Hollandia at ccountry.net wrote: > One of my machines is an old Packard-Bell Legend 610 machine, to which I am > trying to fit a second hard drive. > > The machine will not recognize any modern (or semi-modern) hard drive I have > attempted to fit. I have tried various master/slave combinations, to no avail. > > My guess is that this is due to the BIOS being of am early type. The BIOS > chip is a socketed DIP package and the lettering on it is too faded to read. > The screen boot-up display is this: Given that this is a 486, I don't think that the BIOS is your problem. I've used OPTI chipset 486s with two drives with no problem. What kind of IDE cable are you using to hook up the second drive? If it's an 80-conductor (UDMA) cable, then it's likely that the old IDE controller can't see the drive. You need the 40-conductor cable. You may also have to jumper the drive to restrict it to 8GB or less (some drives can do this). FWIW, Chuck From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Mon Aug 11 14:51:24 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 19:51:24 +0000 Subject: 4004/8008 (was Re: Forgotten PC History) In-Reply-To: References: <489C7C5F.7000008@jbrain.com> <200808082121.55813.rtellason@verizon.net> <489CF676.7050404@brouhaha.com> <489FEA58.8030203@dunnington.plus.com> <20080811085639.GB11609@usap.gov> Message-ID: <20080811195124.GB29445@usap.gov> On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 07:08:43AM -0700, dwight elvey wrote: > > > From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov > >> > > Hmm... I happen to have a couple of 4004 chips (one pulled from a > > non-UPC barcode scanner, the other from a commercial kitchen scale), > > and I've long fantasized about building some showcase 4004 circuit, > > probably a digital clock. > > > > Hi Ethan > The chip is P-mos and it doesn't directly connect to ttl. I do remember that it is P-MOS, but that's a bit out of my experience - I got my start in the CMOS and TTL days of the late 1970s. What little I know about older circuit types (RTL, DTL, etc.) is from playing with DEC equipment. I am not surprised to hear that it won't connect directly to TTL, but I was thinking a 4007 or 4050 might do the trick. > The down is very week and only pulls up with any > strength. OK. > There were a couple chip interfaces ( 4008 and 4009 ) > that created TTL level signals to run standard RAM/ROM. > The only issue here is that one lost the instruction stream > so that one couldn' t take advantage of any RAM ot ROM > specific commands. > The later came out with a single chip version of the > interface( I think it was 4269 ). > These come up on ebay every now and then. OK. I don't know if I have _those_ exact chips, but I do have some support chips along with the processors. > The manual on Al's site shows a circuit to convert the Pmos > levels to a TTL eprom ( used on the SIM4-1 ). The circuit does > use 4002-1 and 4002-2 RAMs. Those I have, at least one or two of. The EPROM interface sounds quite useful - that was really my worry since it's not possible to order genine MCS4-family ROMs anymore. > The 4001/4002 had built in I/O. They would watch the instuction > steam and execute an I/O operation when the 4004 executed > the fetched instruction. Right... I remember something about built-in I/O ports, but not the details. > It is easier to modify a -12V supply to power the -10v than > to make a converter. Many floppy disk supplies are fine for > this. Sure. I was just hoping to be able to dedicate a square inch or two of the design and have a single-supply board. I also have some +5V/-12V potted chargepump blocks at home, a remnant of a particular COMBOARD design for a DEC chassis that lacked -12V or -15V to run the EIA level shifters. Those might be able to put out more than a few mA at -12V. Thanks for the more detailed info, -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 11-Aug-2008 at 19:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -78.7 F (-61.5 C) Windchill -123.7 F (-86.5 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 15.9 kts Grid 13 Barometer 671.6 mb (10947 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Mon Aug 11 14:52:08 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 19:52:08 +0000 Subject: 4004/8008 (was Re: Forgotten PC History) In-Reply-To: <18592.19323.670285.383421@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <489C7C5F.7000008@jbrain.com> <200808082121.55813.rtellason@verizon.net> <489CF676.7050404@brouhaha.com> <489FEA58.8030203@dunnington.plus.com> <20080811085639.GB11609@usap.gov> <18592.19323.670285.383421@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <20080811195208.GC29445@usap.gov> On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 10:23:55AM -0400, Paul Koning wrote: > >>>>> "Ethan" == Ethan Dicks writes: > > Ethan> Hmm... I happen to have a couple of 4004 chips (one pulled > Ethan> from a non-UPC barcode scanner, the other from a commercial > Ethan> kitchen scale), and I've long fantasized about building some > Ethan> showcase 4004 circuit, probably a digital clock. > > Or you could do like a classmate of mine did in 1973-1974 and build a > PC. Not easy, though; I remember a large wire-wrap board with over > 100 chips on it. I think that's much too ambitious for me. If I can't make a simple digital clock, I doubt I could make a full-on computer. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 11-Aug-2008 at 19:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -78.9 F (-61.6 C) Windchill -124.1 F (-86.7 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 16.1 kts Grid 11 Barometer 671.6 mb (10947 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Mon Aug 11 14:54:05 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 19:54:05 +0000 Subject: 4004/8008 (was Re: Forgotten PC History) In-Reply-To: References: <20080811085639.GB11609@usap.gov> Message-ID: <20080811195405.GD29445@usap.gov> On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 10:23:58AM -0600, Richard wrote: > > In article <20080811085639.GB11609 at usap.gov>, > Ethan Dicks writes: > > > Hmm... I happen to have a couple of 4004 chips (one pulled from a > > non-UPC barcode scanner, the other from a commercial kitchen scale), > > and I've long fantasized about building some showcase 4004 circuit, > > probably a digital clock. > > Wouldn't a terminal or calculator be the canonical circuit for which > the 4004 was designed? Probably, but I was thinking small to begin with. A 4004-based terminal would be neat, but far from simple, especially if it was meant to be anything more than a glass TTY. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 11-Aug-2008 at 19:50 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -78.9 F (-61.6 C) Windchill -124.1 F (-86.7 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 16.1 kts Grid 11 Barometer 671.6 mb (10947 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Aug 11 15:13:08 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 21:13:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: Terak 8510 system on eBay (# 300248208909) In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20080811110331.06ef9b80@mail.threedee.com> from "John Foust" at Aug 11, 8 11:07:00 am Message-ID: > Of the half-dozen I have in the office basement - erhmmm - computer museum, > none power-up any longer. I've resisted the urge to board-swap, waiting I assume you have at least tried re-seating the boards (a suprisingly common cause of problems in my experiece) and checked all the PSU rails. I've never seen a Terak, BTW. I'd like to, but it appears they don't exist in the UK... > for the moment when Tony clones himself to properly debug and repair > all antique computers across the globe. Hmmm.. Years ago I wished my brain had an RS232 port... These days, I guess I'd want SCSI, or USB, or something. If I could back up all my classic computer related thoughts/(human) memories, I would. And I'd release them... -tony From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Mon Aug 11 15:29:49 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 20:29:49 +0000 Subject: Terak 8510 system on eBay (# 300248208909) In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.3.4.2.20080811110331.06ef9b80@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: <20080811202949.GA4231@usap.gov> On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 09:13:08PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote: > > Of the half-dozen I have in the office basement - erhmmm - computer museum, > > none power-up any longer. I've resisted the urge to board-swap, waiting > > I assume you have at least tried re-seating the boards (a suprisingly > common cause of problems in my experiece) and checked all the PSU rails. Agreed - when we used to get calls from customers about COMBOARDs, one of the first things we told them to do was to reset the board (most commonly in a BA-11 or BA-23, depending on the model). It fixed a large number of problems (well over 25%) and the customers were very happy to be running again without having to wait for a replacement board to be shipped. Given that in our case it was rarely bad hardware, I have to suspect something to do with tin-plated DEC backplane fingers and gold-plated peripheral card fingers. I've also had good results with pre-OMNIBUS PDP-8 gear by removing all the cards, then cleaning the backplane with a chunk of manila folder, cut to one 36-pin slot width, then dipped in >70% isopropyl alcohol and run up and down each slot (switch to a new section when you start to see grey streaks on the paper). That one trick has taken machines that wouldn't pass the simplest of toggle-in tests to passing most if not all paper-tape tests - no actual bad chips, just dirty backplane connections. Since the Terak in question uses LSI-11 boards, I'm guessing it uses a DEC-compatible QBus backplane. If not, then this technique may or may not be particularly useful. The H-11, in particular, does _not_ use DEC backplane modules, so I wouldn't expect it to have as much of an effect there, for example. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 11-Aug-2008 at 20:20 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -79.8 F (-62.1 C) Windchill -126.0 F (-87.8 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 16.7 kts Grid 12 Barometer 671.7 mb (10943 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Aug 11 15:59:26 2008 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 16:59:26 -0400 Subject: INS8073 (was Re: HERO1 For sale...) In-Reply-To: <48A087C1.8030903@brouhaha.com> References: <20080810225025.GA1587@usap.gov> <20080811005005.GA22840@usap.gov> <001301c8fb84$ab971800$0301a8c0@hal9000> <48A087C1.8030903@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <48A0A82E.1010209@verizon.net> Eric Smith wrote: > Scanning wrote: >> Is the INS8073 the one that has a Tiny BASIC built-in or runs out of >> a ROM ? > > Yes. > The 8073 is specifically the 8072 with "NIBL BASIC" in the mask rom. The 8072 was a custom part where the customer would develope code and have National massproduce the part for a specific application. >> Is it a Tom Pittman type Tiny BASIC ? Thanks. > > How does one tell? > > It's in 2.5KB of ROM, so it's definitely a tinier BASIC than in the > competing Intel 8051AH-BASIC and Zilog Z8671, both of which had 4KB of > ROM. > > National called it "NIBL BASIC", although it is unclear how closely > related the 8073 version is to their NIBL BASIC for the SC/MP, SC/MP > II, or 8080. > > "NIBL BASIC" as National called it is in the realm of Pitman TB. It has a few variations added like start from rom. I've never seen "NIBL BASIC" ported to 8080, that would be interesting. the 8073 is a SC/MP derived cpu family member so nibble on that is developed code. Allison From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 11 16:13:45 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 14:13:45 -0700 Subject: INS8073 (was Re: HERO1 For sale...) In-Reply-To: <48A095E7.1020308@neurotica.com> References: <20080810225025.GA1587@usap.gov>, <48A087C1.8030903@brouhaha.com>, <48A095E7.1020308@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <48A04919.6970.135094A@cclist.sydex.com> Just a related bookmark I had: http://www.techlib.com/Karen/micro.htm#PICL NIBL BASIC implemented via a PIC-based interpreter in 3 chips with 8KB of SRAM. Cheers, Chuck From dbetz at xlisper.com Mon Aug 11 16:59:17 2008 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 17:59:17 -0400 Subject: Panasonic HHC EPROMs? In-Reply-To: <6D57B5B5-F74E-43C6-B9FE-1E20C3DFC652@xlisper.com> References: <6D57B5B5-F74E-43C6-B9FE-1E20C3DFC652@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <82EE140A-BB19-478E-94B9-44A05DB134BD@xlisper.com> On Aug 11, 2008, at 1:18 PM, David Betz wrote: > I have 8 EPROMS in carriers, some MCM68764C and some MCM68766C. I > believe they go with the Panasonic HHC but I'm not sure. In any > case, I don't have an HHC anymore so I don't need them. Anyone > interested? Send me your mailing address off-list and I'll send them > to you. This item has been claimed. Thanks for your interest! From steven.alan.canning at verizon.net Mon Aug 11 17:09:42 2008 From: steven.alan.canning at verizon.net (Scanning) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 15:09:42 -0700 Subject: MCS-51 Tiny BASIC ( was Re: INS8073 ) References: <20080810225025.GA1587@usap.gov> <20080811005005.GA22840@usap.gov> <001301c8fb84$ab971800$0301a8c0@hal9000> <48A087C1.8030903@brouhaha.com> <48A095E7.1020308@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <000901c8fbfe$f54cdfa0$0301a8c0@hal9000> I've found numerous references to a MCS-51 Tiny BASIC for the 8051. Apparently it is 3 Kbytes so I would definitely put it in the Tom Pittman category for Tiny BASICs. Best regards, Steven ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 12:41 PM Subject: Re: INS8073 (was Re: HERO1 For sale...) > Eric Smith wrote: > > It's in 2.5KB of ROM, so it's definitely a tinier BASIC than in the > > competing Intel 8051AH-BASIC and Zilog Z8671, both of which had 4KB of ROM. > > Was there in fact an 8051AH-BASIC? I've worked extensively with > 8052AH-BASIC, and have never heard of an 8051 version. The 8052 has 8KB > of ROM, compared to the 8051's 4KB. The BASIC interpreter filled...and > I mean FILLED...that 8KB. It's extraordinarily dense code. > > The Z8671's BASIC, on the other hand, fits in the first 2KB of ROM on > that chip. > > -Dave From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Mon Aug 11 17:25:09 2008 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 15:25:09 -0700 Subject: Upgrading early BIOS In-Reply-To: <48A03799.1946.F0ADD4@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200808102111.m7ALBgoZ009926@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> <48A03799.1946.F0ADD4@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: Here's a list of various limits of hardware and software for various disk sizes I came across a while back. http://www.allensmith.net/Storage/HDDlimit/Limits.htm#Content Eric On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 12:59 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10 Aug 2008 at 14:11, Hollandia at ccountry.net wrote: > >> One of my machines is an old Packard-Bell Legend 610 machine, to which I am >> trying to fit a second hard drive. >> >> The machine will not recognize any modern (or semi-modern) hard drive I have >> attempted to fit. I have tried various master/slave combinations, to no avail. >> >> My guess is that this is due to the BIOS being of am early type. The BIOS >> chip is a socketed DIP package and the lettering on it is too faded to read. >> The screen boot-up display is this: > > Given that this is a 486, I don't think that the BIOS is your > problem. I've used OPTI chipset 486s with two drives with no > problem. > > What kind of IDE cable are you using to hook up the second drive? If > it's an 80-conductor (UDMA) cable, then it's likely that the old IDE > controller can't see the drive. You need the 40-conductor cable. > You may also have to jumper the drive to restrict it to 8GB or less > (some drives can do this). > > FWIW, > Chuck > > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 11 17:35:40 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 15:35:40 -0700 Subject: Upgrading early BIOS In-Reply-To: References: <200808102111.m7ALBgoZ009926@mailproxy1.ccountry.net>, <48A03799.1946.F0ADD4@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <48A05C4C.2181.1800590@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Aug 2008 at 15:25, Eric J Korpela wrote: > Here's a list of various limits of hardware and software for various > disk sizes I came across a while back. > > http://www.allensmith.net/Storage/HDDlimit/Limits.htm#Content There are also a few DOS utilities out there that will issue an IDENTIFY command and report what comes back, regardless of what the BIOS says. That might, at least, tell the OP if the drive's cabled up right. But this system is a Backward-Hell, right? Not exactly the tops on my list of desirable PCs to use! It's funny--I don't recall anyone on this asking about the collectability of a Barbie PC--must be a "guy" thing. ;<) Cheers, Chuck From chd_1 at nktelco.net Mon Aug 11 17:52:46 2008 From: chd_1 at nktelco.net (Charles H Dickman) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 18:52:46 -0400 Subject: PCB Artwork for DEC card edge fingers Message-ID: <48A0C2BE.7050809@nktelco.net> Does anybody have a PC board cad layout of the DEC card edge connector? I was hoping to find it in PCB (http://pcb.sourceforge.net/index.html) format. I would like to have some boards fabricated that were just fingers and connection pads. I will attach the fingers to some Vector boards and do point-to-point wiring. I have some project ideas for OMNIBUS and QBus, but DEC protoboards are rare and/or expensive. I have little experience with layout work and so far have been frustrated by my attempts. -chuck From mikelee at tdh.com Mon Aug 11 18:07:17 2008 From: mikelee at tdh.com (Michael Lee) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 18:07:17 -0500 Subject: Barbie PC In-Reply-To: <48A05C4C.2181.1800590@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200808102111.m7ALBgoZ009926@mailproxy1.ccountry.net>, <48A03799.1946.F0ADD4@cclist.sydex.com>, <48A05C4C.2181.1800590@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <48A0C625.5020604@tdh.com> Funny you mention the Barbie PC. Back in the day, when the manufacturer went bankrupt, a surplus dealer was selling dozens of these for $30 a piece, no CPU or memory. So, of course, on impulse, I bought half a dozen. They were the worst things you can imagine. The board was Mini-ITXish, no expansion slots, no PS/2, 2x USB, one memory slot, one IDE, and supported only some early model Celeron CPUs. NO Network, might have had a software modem. Since it only had 2x usb, a mouse and keyboard would be it for connections to it. A very basic SVGA, barely good for anything. The whole thing was puzzled together into a small metal case covered in silver spray painted plastic including the CD-ROM front, with a cute flower pattern. Also, they had a tendency to drain the BIOS battery and once dead, it would stay that way for good. Sadly they still sit on a workbench to this day. Haven't gotten myself to get rid of them. And to this day I can't figure out any alternative uses for it or it's parts. Having no method of external peripherals and not having network seriously limited any use of this machine. So are they collectable? :) Mike Chuck Guzis wrote: > > It's funny--I don't recall anyone on this asking about the > collectability of a Barbie PC--must be a "guy" thing. ;<) > > From mikelee at tdh.com Mon Aug 11 18:14:08 2008 From: mikelee at tdh.com (Michael Lee) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 18:14:08 -0500 Subject: Upgrading early BIOS - Drive Overlay In-Reply-To: References: <200808102111.m7ALBgoZ009926@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> Message-ID: <48A0C7C0.3010604@tdh.com> Remember there were also the utilities to fool the PC into using larger sized disks, but I never liked those at all. Most hard drives in that time period came with the Ontrack, EZDrive, Disk Manager, MaxBlast, programs. The Disk Drive Oveylay programs do a software convert of the BIOS settings and actual settings and make it boot/work, usually. These altered the MBR to sit there, and these have their issues and were always a last resort. The drives do NOT swap into other machines well, and any issue, esp with the MBR would pretty much cause a FAIL. Eric J Korpela wrote: > BIOS for early 486 machines usually included two user defined disk > types, often the highest numbered types (maybe 47 and 48). These > allowed you to enter the number of cylinders heads and sectors. You > might not to be able to enter the actual geometry for your drive. > You'll probably be limited to 16 heads, 63 sectors and 1024 cylinders > (504MiB). > > Whatever OS you install may be able to read the full disk capacity > from the drive and use it all (ignoring the BIOS settings), but all > files needed for booting will need to be below the 504 MiB boundary. > > Eric > > > > On Sun, Aug 10, 2008 at 2:11 PM, wrote: > >> One of my machines is an old Packard-Bell Legend 610 machine, to which I am >> trying to fit a second hard drive. >> >> The machine will not recognize any modern (or semi-modern) hard drive I have >> attempted to fit. I have tried various master/slave combinations, to no avail. >> >> My guess is that this is due to the BIOS being of am early type. The BIOS >> chip is a socketed DIP package and the lettering on it is too faded to read. >> The screen boot-up display is this: >> >> PhoenixBIOS(TM) A486 Version 1.01 >> PB400 OPTI 486WB >> Reference ID 08 >> >> Is this a reasonable guess? >> >> If so, what might be done by way of a BIOS upgrade? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Kurt >> >> >> From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 11 18:35:59 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 16:35:59 -0700 Subject: Barbie PC In-Reply-To: <48A0C625.5020604@tdh.com> References: <200808102111.m7ALBgoZ009926@mailproxy1.ccountry.net>, <48A05C4C.2181.1800590@cclist.sydex.com>, <48A0C625.5020604@tdh.com> Message-ID: <48A06A6F.30653.1B73EEC@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Aug 2008 at 18:07, Michael Lee wrote: > So are they collectable? :) As what? ;) If they had a serial port, they might make a terminal, rather than *be* terminal. Or you could load one up with a PDP-8 emulator... So, did you pick up some "Hello Kitty" stickers to customize the box a bit more? Sometimes, you can find some real gems in toys--such as the TI "Speak- n-Spell" and some kids' digicams (particuarly if you can get them on closeout). Other times, well, it's just junk... I wonder what the "Ken" PC looked like... Cheers, Chuck From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Aug 11 18:44:52 2008 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 19:44:52 -0400 Subject: Barbie PC In-Reply-To: <48A06A6F.30653.1B73EEC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200808102111.m7ALBgoZ009926@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> <48A05C4C.2181.1800590@cclist.sydex.com> <48A0C625.5020604@tdh.com> <48A06A6F.30653.1B73EEC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > So, did you pick up some "Hello Kitty" stickers to customize the box > a bit more? Old timers on this list will remember when Seagraves (I think) dug up the Hello Kitty laptop. THAT KICKED ASS. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 11 18:45:01 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 16:45:01 -0700 Subject: Upgrading early BIOS - Drive Overlay In-Reply-To: <48A0C7C0.3010604@tdh.com> References: <200808102111.m7ALBgoZ009926@mailproxy1.ccountry.net>, , <48A0C7C0.3010604@tdh.com> Message-ID: <48A06C8D.7314.1BF855C@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Aug 2008 at 18:14, Michael Lee wrote: > Remember there were also the utilities to fool the PC into using larger > sized disks, but I never liked those at all. Most hard drives in that > time period came with the Ontrack, EZDrive, Disk Manager, MaxBlast, > programs. The Disk Drive Oveylay programs do a software convert of the > BIOS settings and actual settings and make it boot/work, usually. These > altered the MBR to sit there, and these have their issues and were > always a last resort. The drives do NOT swap into other machines well, > and any issue, esp with the MBR would pretty much cause a FAIL. The "disk managers" usually just install their own memory-resident drivers from the first track of the hard drive, then conceal that first track from view. The shortcoming was that (a) it cost some RAM and (b) if you used an OS that was unaware of the drive overlay, things could get pretty screwed up. ISTR that there was also a BIOS extension ROM card that plugged into an ISA slot to provide the necessary functionality. Most of those disk manager programs were distributed with hard disks and so are keyed to the manufacturer's branding returned by an IDENTIFY command. Somewhere around here, I think I've got a real retail copy of a generic Ontrack Disk Manager. Cheers, Chuck From tpeters at mixcom.com Mon Aug 11 19:11:10 2008 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 19:11:10 -0500 Subject: Upgrading early BIOS - Drive Overlay In-Reply-To: <48A06C8D.7314.1BF855C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <48A0C7C0.3010604@tdh.com> <200808102111.m7ALBgoZ009926@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> <48A0C7C0.3010604@tdh.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20080811185750.0c8c0ec8@localhost> At 04:45 PM 8/11/2008 -0700, you wrote: >On 11 Aug 2008 at 18:14, Michael Lee wrote: > > > Remember there were also the utilities to fool the PC into using larger > > sized disks, but I never liked those at all. Most hard drives in that > > time period came with the Ontrack, EZDrive, Disk Manager, MaxBlast, > > programs. The Disk Drive Oveylay programs do a software convert of the > > BIOS settings and actual settings and make it boot/work, usually. These > > altered the MBR to sit there, and these have their issues and were > > always a last resort. The drives do NOT swap into other machines well, > > and any issue, esp with the MBR would pretty much cause a FAIL. > >The "disk managers" usually just install their own memory-resident >drivers from the first track of the hard drive, then conceal that >first track from view. The shortcoming was that (a) it cost some RAM >and (b) if you used an OS that was unaware of the drive overlay, >things could get pretty screwed up. > >ISTR that there was also a BIOS extension ROM card that plugged into >an ISA slot to provide the necessary functionality. I still have my AMIDISK IDE Bios extension card. If you have an MFM drive, this is obviously no help. It's a little ISA bus card with a ROM. a 74F244 chip, and another chip with an AMI copyright sticker over the chip number. The ROM is labeled "AMIDISK V1.1 IDE Extension" and the board also has jumpers for address selection and 32k eprom vs. 64k eprom. The addresses seem to be C800 CC00 D000 D400 D800 DC00. I have the original plastic shell it was shipped in, manual, and invoice showing I paid $67.25 The manual is 10 pages. It mentions that the card allows support of one or two IDE controllers, one to four drives, LBA to allow exceeding 528mb, works with any system BIOS, and automagically detects and configures drives. Also supports non-LBA modes. The card has no other connectors other than the ISA bus and address/config jumpers. Please make offer. I'd love to unload this to someone that can make good use of it. ----- 695. [Guests] Frank Harris has been received in all the great houses -- once! -- Oscar Wilde --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 11 19:51:15 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 17:51:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Barbie PC In-Reply-To: <48A06A6F.30653.1B73EEC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200808102111.m7ALBgoZ009926@mailproxy1.ccountry.net>, <48A05C4C.2181.1800590@cclist.sydex.com>, <48A0C625.5020604@tdh.com> <48A06A6F.30653.1B73EEC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20080811174939.B22606@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 11 Aug 2008, Chuck Guzis wrote: > As what? ;) If they had a serial port, they might make a terminal, > rather than *be* terminal. Or you could load one up with a PDP-8 > emulator... Is there a Barbie USB hub? How about a Barbie USB to "RS232" adapter? From brain at jbrain.com Mon Aug 11 20:20:33 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 20:20:33 -0500 Subject: Barbie PC In-Reply-To: <48A0C625.5020604@tdh.com> References: <200808102111.m7ALBgoZ009926@mailproxy1.ccountry.net>, <48A03799.1946.F0ADD4@cclist.sydex.com>, <48A05C4C.2181.1800590@cclist.sydex.com> <48A0C625.5020604@tdh.com> Message-ID: <48A0E561.7010104@jbrain.com> Michael Lee wrote: > Funny you mention the Barbie PC. Back in the day, when the > manufacturer went bankrupt, a surplus dealer was selling dozens of > these for $30 a piece, no CPU or memory. So, of course, on impulse, I > bought half a dozen. They were the worst things you can imagine. The > board was Mini-ITXish, no expansion slots, no PS/2, 2x USB, one memory > slot, one IDE, and supported only some early model Celeron CPUs. NO > Network, might have had a software modem. Since it only had 2x usb, a > mouse and keyboard would be it for connections to it. A very basic > SVGA, barely good for anything. The whole thing was puzzled together > into a small metal case covered in silver spray painted plastic > including the CD-ROM front, with a cute flower pattern. Also, they > had a tendency to drain the BIOS battery and once dead, it would stay > that way for good. Sadly they still sit on a workbench to this day. > Haven't gotten myself to get rid of them. And to this day I can't > figure out any alternative uses for it or it's parts. Having no > method of external peripherals and not having network seriously > limited any use of this machine. > > So are they collectable? :) Bummer, that thing looks AWFUL! Even my 4 year old "girlie firl" daughter wouldn;t find much appealing on that unit. Jim From legalize at xmission.com Mon Aug 11 20:41:14 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 19:41:14 -0600 Subject: Barbie PC In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 11 Aug 2008 20:20:33 -0500. <48A0E561.7010104@jbrain.com> Message-ID: Then there's the Hot Wheels PC: Looks like an identical case with a different paint scheme. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Aug 11 20:42:18 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 21:42:18 -0400 Subject: Upgrading early BIOS Message-ID: <01C8FBFB.9721D8C0@MSE_D03> On Sun, Aug 10, 2008 at 2:11 PM, wrote: > One of my machines is an old Packard-Bell Legend 610 machine, to which I am > trying to fit a second hard drive. > > The machine will not recognize any modern (or semi-modern) hard drive I have > attempted to fit. I have tried various master/slave combinations, to no avail. > > My guess is that this is due to the BIOS being of am early type. The BIOS > chip is a socketed DIP package and the lettering on it is too faded to read. > The screen boot-up display is this: > > PhoenixBIOS(TM) A486 Version 1.01 > PB400 OPTI 486WB > Reference ID 08 > > Is this a reasonable guess? > > If so, what might be done by way of a BIOS upgrade? > > Thanks, > > Kurt > > --------------------- If after all the good advice here you still haven't got it working, this is the sort of issue that's pretty commonly discussed and solved on the Vintage Computer Forum which deals largely with old PC problems. Might be worth a look. http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/index.php m From billdeg at degnanco.com Mon Aug 11 21:19:52 2008 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 22:19:52 -0400 Subject: WTD: DEC 11/40 power supply (main unit) model H74 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20080811220241.01f430a0@smtp.degnanco.com> The part number on the front is "H74 a" and it's the big part of the power supply in the back. In front (looking from the side) are 5 "h754" modules. The modules and the console power are attached to the "H74 a" Other H74x supplies should work. Here is the wording on the unit: Dec Power Supply H74 a Caution AC & DC OUTPUTS ARE PRESENT WHEN LIGHT IS ON POWER ON (( )) ------------ where (( )) = the light bulb. System was working recently.....The supply's red indicator light no longer comes on, nor do the console lights, though the fans still run. In the meantime I will test with a volt meter and so on, maybe there's a bad connection. Thanks in advance Bill From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 11 21:32:39 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 19:32:39 -0700 Subject: Barbie PC In-Reply-To: <48A0E561.7010104@jbrain.com> References: <200808102111.m7ALBgoZ009926@mailproxy1.ccountry.net>, <48A0C625.5020604@tdh.com>, <48A0E561.7010104@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <48A093D7.3642.258FA7B@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Aug 2008 at 20:20, Jim Brain wrote: > Bummer, that thing looks AWFUL! Even my 4 year old "girlie firl" > daughter wouldn;t find much appealing on that unit. As if a POS pink PC weren't enough, the poor folks who paid $699 to order theirs got a double-whammy; a bankruptcy, just in time for Christmas: http://news.cnet.com/Bankruptcy-crashes-the-Barbie-PC/2100-1040_3- 250222.html The Hot Wheels and Barbie PCs were made by the same company--Patriot Computers: http://news.cnet.com/2100-1017-234533.html Cheers, Chuck From jzg22 at drexel.edu Mon Aug 11 21:39:12 2008 From: jzg22 at drexel.edu (Jonathan Gevaryahu) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 22:39:12 -0400 Subject: IBM EGA Programming manual: anyone have a copy? Message-ID: <48A0F7D0.3060606@drexel.edu> I'm searching for a copy of the official IBM EGA programming manual/reference manual. If I recall correctly, in order to actually GET that manual you needed to have bought the $150? CGA/MDA programming/reference manual (or something like that) and have sent in the little registration card, and IBM sent you the EGA one in the mail. Does anyone have a copy of it? (a copy of the cga/mda one would be nice too, but isn't nearly as important) Contact me off-list (or on-list if you'd like) if you do, I'm quite willing to pay for photocopying/scanning/time/etc. -- Jonathan Gevaryahu jgevaryahu(@t)hotmail(d0t)com jzg22(@t)drexel(d0t)edu From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Mon Aug 11 21:39:50 2008 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 19:39:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 4004/8008 (was Re: Forgotten PC History) In-Reply-To: <200808111700.m7BH053b005415@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <176061.3231.qm@web50501.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Probably been mentioned here before, but I did a search on FPGA and 4004 and found this interesting page: http://www.4004.com/ From useddec at gmail.com Mon Aug 11 22:02:55 2008 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 22:02:55 -0500 Subject: WTD: DEC 11/40 power supply (main unit) model H74 In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20080811220241.01f430a0@smtp.degnanco.com> References: <5.1.0.14.0.20080811220241.01f430a0@smtp.degnanco.com> Message-ID: <624966d60808112002q66e001b9n2b097650493dfc3f@mail.gmail.com> Hi Bill, I should have whatever you need. Where are you located? Paul On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 9:19 PM, B. Degnan wrote: > The part number on the front is "H74 a" and it's the big part of the power > supply in the back. In front (looking from the side) are 5 "h754" modules. > The modules and the console power are attached to the "H74 a" Other H74x > supplies should work. > > Here is the wording on the unit: > > Dec Power Supply > H74 a > > Caution > AC & DC OUTPUTS ARE PRESENT > WHEN LIGHT IS ON > > POWER ON > (( )) > > > ------------ > where (( )) = the light bulb. > > System was working recently.....The supply's red indicator light no longer > comes on, nor do the console lights, though the fans still run. In the > meantime I will test with a volt meter and so on, maybe there's a bad > connection. > > Thanks in advance > > Bill > > > > From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Mon Aug 11 22:08:08 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 03:08:08 +0000 Subject: 4004/8008 (was Re: Forgotten PC History) In-Reply-To: <176061.3231.qm@web50501.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <200808111700.m7BH053b005415@dewey.classiccmp.org> <176061.3231.qm@web50501.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20080812030808.GA11503@usap.gov> On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 07:39:50PM -0700, William Blair wrote: > Probably been mentioned here before, but I did a search on FPGA and 4004 and found this interesting page: > > http://www.4004.com/ Wow! I was unfamiliar with that site. There's some excellent stuff there. I browsed over the Busicom calculator source code reconstruction. Very thorough. I'll have to take a crack at that Java emulator. Thanks for pointing this out! -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 12-Aug-2008 at 03:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -83.4 F (-64.1 C) Windchill -130.2 F (-90.1 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 16.3 kts Grid 21 Barometer 671.8 mb (10939 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Aug 11 22:13:56 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 23:13:56 -0400 Subject: Forgotten PC History In-Reply-To: <489EAC78.4010101@brouhaha.com> References: <489C7C5F.7000008@jbrain.com> <489DF4BD.1090604@axeside.co.uk> <489EAC78.4010101@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <200808112313.56690.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 10 August 2008 04:53, Eric Smith wrote: > Philip Belben wrote: > > I have a couple of Sharp calculators from about that date. I just > > grabbed the nearest (an ELSI-160) and opened it up, to find that the > > four chips have date codes in early 1971 and forty-two (yes, 42) pins > > each in a dual zigzag arrangement. > > 42-pin DIP packages were common among Japanese semiconductor vendors but > I don't recall seeing any from US vendors. > > For example, the early NEC cassette/cartridge tape controller chip, > uPD371 was in a 42-pin DIP. I think their single-density floppy > controller chip, uPD372, might also have been in a 42-pin DIP. I think I may even have a NEC databook that features some of those, and remember how odd it was that those seemed to me at the time. Probably somewhere around 1978, maybe? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Aug 11 22:16:28 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 23:16:28 -0400 Subject: Argo Electronics in NYC to close In-Reply-To: References: <21614.69849.qm@web56203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <489B206E.60107@radiorobots.com> Message-ID: <200808112316.28820.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 10 August 2008 11:16, schwepes at moog.netaxs.com wrote: > Actually there is more significance than you give. The last parts > houses in the Philadelphia area closed down years ago. What place was that? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Aug 11 22:26:51 2008 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 20:26:51 -0700 Subject: PCB Artwork for DEC card edge fingers In-Reply-To: <48A0C2BE.7050809@nktelco.net> References: <48A0C2BE.7050809@nktelco.net> Message-ID: I've layouts in EagleCAD, but if you're not using Eagle they're not going to be much use. TTFN - Guy On Aug 11, 2008, at 3:52 PM, Charles H Dickman wrote: > Does anybody have a PC board cad layout of the DEC card edge > connector? I was hoping to find it in PCB (http://pcb.sourceforge.net/index.html > ) format. > > I would like to have some boards fabricated that were just fingers > and connection pads. I will attach the fingers to some Vector boards > and do point-to-point wiring. I have some project ideas for OMNIBUS > and QBus, but DEC protoboards are rare and/or expensive. > > I have little experience with layout work and so far have been > frustrated by my attempts. > > -chuck > > > From technobug at comcast.net Mon Aug 11 22:28:03 2008 From: technobug at comcast.net (CRC) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 20:28:03 -0700 Subject: IBM Greystone Display Station Manuals Message-ID: <5107C05E-01F2-4A99-AEBB-4475E5C10E8B@comcast.net> I was at my local scrapper recently and ran across a number of manuals for the IBM Grelystone Display Station in the dumpster: Maintenance Analysis Procedures Greystone Parts Catalog Maintenance Information Manual If anyone has interest, they are available for postage. CRC From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Aug 11 22:38:20 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 23:38:20 -0400 Subject: Barbie PC In-Reply-To: <48A0C625.5020604@tdh.com> References: <200808102111.m7ALBgoZ009926@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> <48A05C4C.2181.1800590@cclist.sydex.com> <48A0C625.5020604@tdh.com> Message-ID: <200808112338.21066.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 11 August 2008 19:07, Michael Lee wrote: > So are they collectable? :) Put 'em on ebay and find out. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Aug 11 22:41:58 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 23:41:58 -0400 Subject: Upgrading early BIOS - Drive Overlay In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20080811185750.0c8c0ec8@localhost> References: <48A0C7C0.3010604@tdh.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20080811185750.0c8c0ec8@localhost> Message-ID: <200808112341.58716.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 11 August 2008 20:11, Tom Peters wrote: (Snip) > I still have my AMIDISK IDE Bios extension card. (Snip) > Please make offer. I'd love to unload this to someone that can make good > use of it. Speaking of which, I also have a few cards like that. Two ISA and two VLB, NIB. I can get more specifics as to what all's included in those boxes if there's any interest (they're a few blocks from here). -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From legalize at xmission.com Mon Aug 11 22:59:10 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 21:59:10 -0600 Subject: 4004/8008 (was Re: Forgotten PC History) In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 12 Aug 2008 03:08:08 -0000. <20080812030808.GA11503@usap.gov> Message-ID: In article <20080812030808.GA11503 at usap.gov>, Ethan Dicks writes: > On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 07:39:50PM -0700, William Blair wrote: > > Probably been mentioned here before, but I did a search on FPGA and 4004 an d found this interesting page: > > > > http://www.4004.com/ > > Wow! I was unfamiliar with that site. There's some excellent stuff > there. Yeah, I didn't know of it either -- there's 4004 schematics in there :) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From Hollandia at ccountry.net Mon Aug 11 22:59:26 2008 From: Hollandia at ccountry.net (Hollandia at ccountry.net) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 20:59:26 -0700 Subject: Upgrading early BIOS Message-ID: <200808120359.m7C3xPoZ027403@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> Fred Cisin asked >Did you set the CMOS to 2 drives? (1) >Which drive types are supported in the CMOS? (2) (1) Yes I did. (2) The BIOS screens give the following drive selections The following abbreviations are used in the table: Cylinders: CYL Heads: HDS Write Precomp: WP Landing Zone: LZ Sectors: SCT MegaBytes: MB Disk Type CYL HDS WP LZ SCT MB 1 306 4 128 305 17 10 2 615 4 300 615 17 20 3 615 6 300 615 17 30 4 940 8 512 940 17 62 5 940 6 512 940 17 46 6 615 4 -1 615 17 20 7 462 8 256 511 17 30 8 733 5 -1 733 17 30 9 900 15 -1 901 17 112 10 895 15 -1 895 62 406 11 1054 16 -1 1054 63 518 12 855 7 -1 855 17 49 13 306 8 128 319 17 20 14 733 7 -1 733 17 42 15 There is no listing for this drive type 16 987 12 -1 988 35 202 17 977 5 300 977 17 40 18 977 7 -1 977 17 56 19 1024 7 512 1023 17 59 20 880 11 0 0 17 81 21 903 8 0 0 46 162 22 1024 16 0 0 17 136 23 914 14 0 0 17 106 24 1001 15 0 0 17 124 25 977 7 977 977 26 86 26 1024 4 -1 1023 17 34 27 1024 5 -1 1023 17 42 28 1024 8 -1 1023 17 68 29 980 10 980 990 17 81 30 1024 10 0 0 17 85 31 832 6 832 832 33 80 32 1020 15 -1 1024 17 127 33 776 8 0 0 33 100 34 1024 12 0 0 17 102 35 1024 9 1024 1024 17 76 36 1024 5 512 1024 17 42 37 830 10 -1 830 17 68 38 823 10 256 824 17 68 39 980 14 -1 990 30 200 40 615 8 128 664 17 40 41 917 15 -1 918 17 114 42 1023 15 -1 1024 17 127 43 823 10 512 823 17 68 44 820 6 -1 820 17 40 45 1024 8 -1 1024 17 68 The BIOS also allows two User-Defined Types, in which the parameters can have the following ranges: Cylinders: 0-9999 Heads: 0-99 Write Precomp: 0-9999 Landing Zone: 0-9999 Sectors: 0-99 The machine will not recognize ANY second drive. The drives I have tried are all consideraby bewer than the BIOS and I just can't think of any other reason why they would not be recognized. I have tried the "cable select" settings on all of them. I assume that the MASTER/SLAVE methodology is not mandatory. Can someone suggest a good book that goes into this type of thing? Thanks, Kurt From legalize at xmission.com Mon Aug 11 23:01:40 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 22:01:40 -0600 Subject: IBM Greystone Display Station Manuals In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 11 Aug 2008 20:28:03 -0700. <5107C05E-01F2-4A99-AEBB-4475E5C10E8B@comcast.net> Message-ID: In article <5107C05E-01F2-4A99-AEBB-4475E5C10E8B at comcast.net>, CRC writes: > I was at my local scrapper recently and ran across a number of manuals > for the IBM Grelystone Display Station in the dumpster: > > Maintenance Analysis Procedures > Greystone Parts Catalog > Maintenance Information Manual What is a "Greystone Display Station"? Googling didn't turn up anything obvious. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Mon Aug 11 23:07:35 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 21:07:35 -0700 Subject: IBM EGA Programming manual: anyone have a copy? In-Reply-To: <48A0F7D0.3060606@drexel.edu> References: <48A0F7D0.3060606@drexel.edu> Message-ID: <48A0AA17.1285.2AFE602@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Aug 2008 at 22:39, Jonathan Gevaryahu wrote: > I'm searching for a copy of the official IBM EGA programming > manual/reference manual. > If I recall correctly, in order to actually GET that manual you needed > to have bought the $150? CGA/MDA programming/reference manual (or > something like that) and have sent in the little registration card, and > IBM sent you the EGA one in the mail. > Does anyone have a copy of it? > (a copy of the cga/mda one would be nice too, but isn't nearly as important) > Contact me off-list (or on-list if you'd like) if you do, I'm quite > willing to pay for photocopying/scanning/time/etc. I'm not sure what you're after. Is it the EGA section out of the "Options and Adapters" tech ref? I've got that, I think--and probably so do a fair number of other members of this list. Cheers, Chuck From mikelee at tdh.com Mon Aug 11 23:08:04 2008 From: mikelee at tdh.com (Michael Lee) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 23:08:04 -0500 Subject: Upgrading early BIOS In-Reply-To: <200808120359.m7C3xPoZ027403@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> References: <200808120359.m7C3xPoZ027403@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> Message-ID: <48A10CA4.8050106@tdh.com> Cable select may not work with those systems, and or drives. I always set the master/slave for systems from that era to avoid issues. As for books, just an old copy of Upgrading and Repairing PCs is a great reference in my opinion. > The machine will not recognize ANY second drive. The drives I have tried are > all consideraby bewer than the BIOS and I just can't think of any other > reason why they would not be recognized. > > I have tried the "cable select" settings on all of them. I assume that the > MASTER/SLAVE methodology is not mandatory. > > Can someone suggest a good book that goes into this type of thing? > > Thanks, > > Kurt > > From schwepes at moog.netaxs.com Mon Aug 11 23:11:34 2008 From: schwepes at moog.netaxs.com (schwepes at moog.netaxs.com) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 00:11:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Argo Electronics in NYC to close In-Reply-To: <200808112316.28820.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <21614.69849.qm@web56203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <489B206E.60107@radiorobots.com> <200808112316.28820.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Aug 2008, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Sunday 10 August 2008 11:16, schwepes at moog.netaxs.com wrote: > > Actually there is more significance than you give. The last parts > > houses in the Philadelphia area closed down years ago. > > What place was that? I think Advanced Electronics. It was out in Jersey down NJ73 if I remember correctly. The one in Philadelphia near Oxford Circle did like Radio Shack and went to other product lines before it disappeared. I'd have to check if the guys who sold used computer equipment in Gray's Ferry are still around. There was a guy in Germantown who sold old equipment, at least he did until his roof caved in. bs > > -- > Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and > ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can > be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" > - > Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James > M Dakin > From alhartman at yahoo.com Mon Aug 11 23:30:30 2008 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 00:30:30 -0400 Subject: Barbie PC In-Reply-To: <200808120010.m7C0AEV3011233@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200808120010.m7C0AEV3011233@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <48A111E6.5060704@yahoo.com> Barbie PC's are VERY expandable. They have 4 USB ports (at least the one I have does), so you can easily put a USB hub on there to have even more ports. I've put USB wiireless adapters, USB NIC adapters on my sisters. I've put a 512mb RAM DIMM in it, and put a better CD-ROM drive in it. It came with Windows 98, but runs fine on Windows XP Home or Pro. It's not a top end box at all, but can be a nice Internet/Wordprocessing computer. There was also a Hot Wheels Computer which had a Blue and Yellow case with Flame stickers on it. Changing out the battery is no big deal. I just did that for my sisters unit. They are old and slow, but I'm sure there are lots of uses for them. Al From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Aug 11 23:31:15 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 00:31:15 -0400 Subject: Argo Electronics in NYC to close In-Reply-To: References: <21614.69849.qm@web56203.mail.re3.yahoo.com> <200808112316.28820.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200808120031.18624.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 12 August 2008 00:11, schwepes at moog.netaxs.com wrote: > On Mon, 11 Aug 2008, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > On Sunday 10 August 2008 11:16, schwepes at moog.netaxs.com wrote: > > > Actually there is more significance than you give. The last parts > > > houses in the Philadelphia area closed down years ago. > > > > What place was that? > > I think Advanced Electronics. It was out in Jersey down NJ73 if I > remember correctly. The one in Philadelphia near Oxford Circle did like > Radio Shack and went to other product lines before it disappeared. > I'd have to check if the guys who sold used computer equipment in Gray's > Ferry are still around. There was a guy in Germantown who sold old > equipment, at least he did until his roof caved in. > bs It's been rather a long time since I took a trip to that area to look for interesting junk. There was Herbach & Rademan, which I think are still around only in NJ someplace, and a place we stumbled into calling itself "Chassey Electronics" which was just a big warehouse full of all sorts of junk. I remember barrels of what appeared to be keyboards from keypunch machines (I wanted one that'd do ASCII but couldn't find one), and I ended up paying $4 for a *big* board that I ended up salvaging close to 400 TTL chips from. But that was probably close to 20 years ago, or maybe more... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From trag at io.com Sun Aug 10 17:10:07 2008 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 17:10:07 -0500 Subject: Where to find memory ICs? In-Reply-To: <200808080620.m786KSv8054131@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200808080620.m786KSv8054131@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Message: 3 Date: Thu, 07 Aug 2008 17:28:19 -0500 From: Jim Leonard Subject: Re: Where to find memory ICs? To: General at mail.mobygames.com, "Discussion at mail.mobygames.com":On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Message-ID: <489B7703.7050009 at oldskool.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Glen Slick wrote: >> I just want a few tubes of these to populate the board, I'm not looking >> for a box of 'em :-) Any pointers? > > www.unicornelectronics.com > 511000-100 $1.89 quanity 25-99 I want to use these to populate an Above Board from 2MB to 8MB, and that would require 6*9*1.89 = $102.06 for just 6MB of RAM. Does anyone know of a cheaper way to get DRAM? $100 just so I can add 6MB of RAM to a card doesn't seem right... I came to this discussion late, so apologies if I missed the point. However, in answer to your last question, I have found desoldering memory chips from old SIMMs to be a workable method. I wanted a bunch of 16M X 4 FPM DRAM and the cheapest way to get it was off of 128 MB 72 pin SIMMs which were selling for about $10 each when carefully shopped for on Ebay. Each SIMM holds 16 chips so the price was well under $1 per chip. Plus there were a handful on 16M X 1 chips on boards as well for parity. Anyway, your target memory chips might be cheaply available on old 30 pin or 72 pin SIMMs. The biggest obstacle would be a requirement for DIPs. Most SIMMs have SOJ chips on board, rather than DIPs. Jeff Walther From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Aug 11 23:49:10 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 21:49:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Upgrading early BIOS In-Reply-To: <200808120359.m7C3xPoZ027403@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> References: <200808120359.m7C3xPoZ027403@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> Message-ID: <20080811214537.D29480@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 11 Aug 2008 Hollandia at ccountry.net wrote: > The machine will not recognize ANY second drive. The drives I have tried are > all consideraby bewer than the BIOS and I just can't think of any other > reason why they would not be recognized. > I have tried the "cable select" settings on all of them. I assume that the > MASTER/SLAVE methodology is not mandatory. Does the Packard Bell hardware support cable select? > Can someone suggest a good book that goes into this type of thing? Scott Mueller's Repairing and Upgrading PCs prob'ly 3 or 4 editions before the current one. Try maybe ed 12 or 13 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Aug 11 23:54:33 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 22:54:33 -0600 Subject: Barbie PC In-Reply-To: <200808112338.21066.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200808102111.m7ALBgoZ009926@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> <48A05C4C.2181.1800590@cclist.sydex.com> <48A0C625.5020604@tdh.com> <200808112338.21066.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <48A11789.6050509@jetnet.ab.ca> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Monday 11 August 2008 19:07, Michael Lee wrote: > >> So are they collectable? :) >> > > Put 'em on ebay and find out. :-) > > I'd like to say "A fool and his money are ..." but how did the *fool* get his money in the first place? From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Aug 12 00:00:08 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 01:00:08 -0400 Subject: Upgrading early BIOS In-Reply-To: <20080811214537.D29480@shell.lmi.net> References: <200808120359.m7C3xPoZ027403@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> <20080811214537.D29480@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200808120100.08762.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 12 August 2008 00:49, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 11 Aug 2008 Hollandia at ccountry.net wrote: > > The machine will not recognize ANY second drive. The drives I have tried > > are all consideraby bewer than the BIOS and I just can't think of any > > other reason why they would not be recognized. > > I have tried the "cable select" settings on all of them. I assume that > > the MASTER/SLAVE methodology is not mandatory. > > Does the Packard Bell hardware support cable select? > > > Can someone suggest a good book that goes into this type of thing? > > Scott Mueller's Repairing and Upgrading PCs > prob'ly 3 or 4 editions before the current one. Try maybe ed 12 or 13 There's a liquidation-type store in the area that seems to get these in with some regularity, usually an edition or several behind the current one, and *way* cheaper in price. I might be persuaded, if someone wants to contact me off-list... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Aug 12 00:00:36 2008 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 01:00:36 -0400 Subject: Barbie PC In-Reply-To: <48A11789.6050509@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200808102111.m7ALBgoZ009926@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> <200808112338.21066.rtellason@verizon.net> <48A11789.6050509@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200808120100.36810.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 12 August 2008 00:54, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > On Monday 11 August 2008 19:07, Michael Lee wrote: > >> So are they collectable? :) > > > > Put 'em on ebay and find out. :-) > > I'd like to say "A fool and his money are ..." > but how did the *fool* get his money in the first place? One wonders. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Aug 12 00:05:28 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 00:05:28 -0500 Subject: IBM Greystone Display Station Manuals In-Reply-To: References: <5107C05E-01F2-4A99-AEBB-4475E5C10E8B@comcast.net> Message-ID: <51ea77730808112205u34f453bgc1740a67a95ebecf@mail.gmail.com> On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 11:01 PM, Richard wrote: > What is a "Greystone Display Station"? Googling didn't turn up > anything obvious. Ah, sometimes you have to look to the non-obvious: http://www.pmsimon.com/images/productplacement.jpg From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 12 00:28:07 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 22:28:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Barbie PC In-Reply-To: <48A111E6.5060704@yahoo.com> References: <200808120010.m7C0AEV3011233@dewey.classiccmp.org> <48A111E6.5060704@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20080811222720.V29480@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 12 Aug 2008, Al Hartman wrote: > I've put USB wiireless adapters, USB NIC adapters on my sisters. so, . . . your sisters are all networked now? From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Aug 12 00:28:56 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 22:28:56 -0700 Subject: INS8073 (was Re: HERO1 For sale...) In-Reply-To: <48A087C1.8030903@brouhaha.com> References: <20080810225025.GA1587@usap.gov> <20080811005005.GA22840@usap.gov> <001301c8fb84$ab971800$0301a8c0@hal9000> <48A087C1.8030903@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > From: eric at brouhaha.com > > Scanning wrote: >> Is the INS8073 the one that has a Tiny BASIC built-in or runs out of a ROM ? > > Yes. > >> Is it a Tom Pittman type Tiny BASIC ? Thanks. > > How does one tell? > > It's in 2.5KB of ROM, so it's definitely a tinier BASIC than in the > competing Intel 8051AH-BASIC and Zilog Z8671, both of which had 4KB of ROM. > > National called it "NIBL BASIC", although it is unclear how closely > related the 8073 version is to their NIBL BASIC for the SC/MP, SC/MP II, > or 8080. > > Hi Why does everyone always assume that Tiny BASIC was Tom Pittman's. Palo Alto TB was the primary one used on Intel processors. This was not even similar in coding style. The instructions were the same because they were both basic BASIC. As I recall, Tom did the 6800 and then the 6502. I think the fellows name for Palo Alto TB was Chang. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Your PC, mobile phone, and online services work together like never before. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/108587394/direct/01/ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Aug 12 00:31:42 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 22:31:42 -0700 Subject: 4004/8008 (was Re: Forgotten PC History) In-Reply-To: <48A08E2B.8000602@brouhaha.com> References: <489C7C5F.7000008@jbrain.com> <200808082121.55813.rtellason@verizon.net> <489CF676.7050404@brouhaha.com> <489FEA58.8030203@dunnington.plus.com> <20080811085639.GB11609@usap.gov> <48A08E2B.8000602@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: > From: eric at brouhaha.com > > dwight elvey wrote: >> There were a couple chip interfaces ( 4008 and 4009 ) > [...] >> The later came out with a single chip version of the >> interface( I think it was 4269 ). > > 4289 > > The 4269 was a keyboard/display interface, conceptually similar to the 8279. > Hi Eric Thanks, you are correct. I should have looked it up. I have seen these on ebay at times. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Your PC, mobile phone, and online services work together like never before. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/108587394/direct/01/ From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Aug 12 00:44:31 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 00:44:31 -0500 Subject: Where to find memory ICs? In-Reply-To: References: <200808080620.m786KSv8054131@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <48A1233F.9030909@oldskool.org> Jeff Walther wrote: > I came to this discussion late, so apologies if I missed the point. > However, in answer to your last question, I have found desoldering > memory chips from old SIMMs to be a workable method. I thought of that but wasn't sure if they were compatible or not. I'm not a hardware guru, just a guy who likes to restore old IBM 5150/5160/clones to working service. > I wanted a bunch of 16M X 4 FPM DRAM and the cheapest way to get it was > off of 128 MB 72 pin SIMMs which were selling for about $10 each when > carefully shopped for on Ebay. Each SIMM holds 16 chips so the price > was well under $1 per chip. Plus there were a handful on 16M X 1 > chips on boards as well for parity. Oh, I have plenty of SIMMs -- if they're compatible, I'll start learning how to desolder :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Aug 12 00:48:57 2008 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 22:48:57 -0700 Subject: 4004/8008 (was Re: Forgotten PC History) In-Reply-To: <20080811195124.GB29445@usap.gov> References: <489C7C5F.7000008@jbrain.com> <200808082121.55813.rtellason@verizon.net> <489CF676.7050404@brouhaha.com> <489FEA58.8030203@dunnington.plus.com> <20080811085639.GB11609@usap.gov> <20080811195124.GB29445@usap.gov> Message-ID: > From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov ---snip---> > Thanks for the more detailed info,> Hi Ethan I should mention I do have a working SIM4-1 and programmer card, as described in the manual. I also have a hand written assembler and disassembler. The disassembler creates nice Intel code but I wrote the code for the assembler at a different time so they are not compatible( no good excuse ). Both are written in Forth and run under F-PC ( a easy to get freeware version ). You don't need to know much Forth to use either. I also have an emulator, also written in Forth. It executes code but I never finished connecting I/O functions. It is still useful but one needs to manually load input values and then execute until the next input. I'd intended to have it read input from a file and use the cycle count to determine each I/O data change. I just got side tracked and never finished it. It does still read out instructions as it runs and allows breakpoints and single stepping. If you think you'd be interested, I can dig it up. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Your PC, mobile phone, and online services work together like never before. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/108587394/direct/01/ From axelsson at acc.umu.se Mon Aug 11 06:46:18 2008 From: axelsson at acc.umu.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Axelsson?=) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 13:46:18 +0200 Subject: Forgotten PC History In-Reply-To: <489FEA58.8030203@dunnington.plus.com> References: <489C7C5F.7000008@jbrain.com> <200808082121.55813.rtellason@verizon.net> <489CF676.7050404@brouhaha.com> <489FEA58.8030203@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <48A0268A.8020103@acc.umu.se> Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 11/08/2008 07:37, schwepes at moog.netaxs.com wrote: > >> The 8008 was only introduced a year after the 4004 which was >> introduced in 1971. I can't find a pin out for either of them >> but I suspect that they might be pin compatable so that the >> upper four bits would be simply not used if the 8008 was put >> in a system designed for a 4004. > > Not even close, I'm afraid. The 4004 is a 16-pin device with Vdd > (-10V) and Vss (+5V) on the centre pins of the two sides, the 4 data > bits on pins 1-4, and the two clock phases and SYNC on pins 6-8. The > 8008 is an 18-pin device with Vcc (+5V) and Vss (-9V) on diagonally > opposite corners (pins 1 and 10), D0-D7 on pins 2-9, and the clock > phases and SYNC on the other side (pins 14-16): > > 4004 8008 > __ __ __ __ > D0 | U | CMRAM0 (-9V) Vss | U | INT > D1 | | CMRAM1 D0 | | READY > D2 | | CMRAM2 D1 | | phi1 > D3 | | CMRAM3 D2 | | phi2 > (+5V) Vss | | Vdd (-10V) D3 | | SYNC > phi1 | | CMROM D4 | | S0 > phi2 | | TEST D5 | | S1 > SYNC |_____| RESET D6 | | S2 > D7 |_____| Vcc (+5V) This doesn't look correct. My 8008 8 bit parallel CPU manual gives the following order on the data bits. (Also at bitsavers at http://bitsavers.org/pdf/intel/MCS8/8008usersManualRev4_Nov73.pdf ) 8008 __ __ (-9V) Vss | U | INT D7 | | READY D6 | | phi1 D5 | | phi2 D4 | | SYNC D3 | | S0 D2 | | S1 D1 | | S2 D0 |_____| Vcc (+5V) And to answer another question about the screen on the Datapoint 2200, it was 12 rows of 80 characters. Btw, anyone have an Intellec 8 computer they don't need? It's one of my "wish list" machines. :-) /G?ran From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Mon Aug 11 16:15:35 2008 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 16:15:35 -0500 Subject: FS: 1980's Intel/Harris/Hitachi data books Message-ID: The barn cleanup continues. I found a box of data books that date back to my first EE job (early 1980's). See picture for titles. http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=x51mkl&s=4 Please contact me off-list if interested in some or all. There are more data books buried in those piles of ancient boxes, too... will post as I uncover them. thanks Charles From steerex at ccvn.com Mon Aug 11 17:26:38 2008 From: steerex at ccvn.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 18:26:38 -0400 Subject: COBOL quote in the news In-Reply-To: <48A08CFC.5080303@brouhaha.com> References: <489ABA22.8563.F6561BF@cclist.sydex.com> <489B3CB5.7070806@brouhaha.com> <489BA401.3000306@ptdprolog.net> <48A05AF7.2020508@arachelian.com> <48A08CFC.5080303@brouhaha.com> Message-ID: <1218493598.6407.37.camel@bart> > > or perhaps (automated) language translators; say from Cobol to Java. > > If you do an automated translation, the result will just be COBOL that's > written in Java. You won't be able to find *anyone* that's good at > maintaining that mess. > > Eric I have a friend that is working for a company Web-enabling a COBOL application for the DOD. This is a mission critical application that consists of thousands of data input screens and literally millions of lines of code. It was determined that the only semi-reasonable method of porting the application would be to use an automated tool. The tool interprets the COBOL and spits out the mostly equivalent JAVA code. I am told most of the code will not compile / run without serious modification. So a developer, conversant in both COBOL and JAVA, has to modify the already FUBAR code. The result is a multimillion dollar hodge-podge of code that is absolutely unmaintainable! My friend had been working on this project for the last 7 years and expects to retire long before it is complete. See ya, -- Steve Robertson steerex [at] ccvn [dot] com From gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at Tue Aug 12 01:42:02 2008 From: gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at (DI Gerhard Kreuzer) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 08:42:02 +0200 Subject: PCB Artwork for DEC card edge fingers Message-ID: <20080812084202.uz5vd0srkgwg8gg0@webmail.izone.at> Hi, I have a cad system (Altium), which can convert some formats, maybe I could convert EAGLE files. But, if you tell me, how the final board should be, and its not so much work, I can do it for you and you get Gerber files, which are accepted by most of the PCB manufactures. Cheers Gerhard From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Aug 12 02:17:02 2008 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 08:17:02 +0100 Subject: Forgotten PC History In-Reply-To: <48A0268A.8020103@acc.umu.se> References: <489C7C5F.7000008@jbrain.com> <200808082121.55813.rtellason@verizon.net> <489CF676.7050404@brouhaha.com> <489FEA58.8030203@dunnington.plus.com> <48A0268A.8020103@acc.umu.se> Message-ID: <48A138EE.6040109@dunnington.plus.com> On 11/08/2008 12:46, G?ran Axelsson wrote: > Pete Turnbull wrote: > { pinouts snipped ] > > > This doesn't look correct. My 8008 8 bit parallel CPU manual gives the > following order on the data bits. (Also at bitsavers at > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/intel/MCS8/8008usersManualRev4_Nov73.pdf ) > 8008 > __ __ > (-9V) Vss | U | INT > D7 | | READY > D6 | | phi1 > D5 | | phi2 > D4 | | SYNC > D3 | | S0 > D2 | | S1 > D1 | | S2 > D0 |_____| Vcc (+5V) > > Oops! You're right, and that's what I get for being too hasty with my typing. Well spotted. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Aug 12 04:18:30 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 04:18:30 -0500 Subject: Plus Hardcard 20 software? Message-ID: <48A15566.8050408@oldskool.org> Against better judgement, I attempted to low-level format a Plus Hardcard 20 and completely borked it (with the wrong format, the controller won't init and the thing is now a brick). Does anyone have the Plus Hardcard 20 install diskette? The HardCard is shipped in a partitioned and formatted state, with a number of files included on it. The directory of files is as follows: INSTALL EXE 47479 1-01-80 12:06a HCD BAT 30 1-01-80 12:07a HCD1 BAT 128 1-01-80 12:07a HCD2 EXE 54769 1-01-80 12:07a HCD3 DAT 13440 1-01-80 12:07a HCD3 DIF 704 1-01-80 12:07a HCD6 SCR 4224 1-01-80 12:07a PREPARE BAT 235 1-01-80 12:08a SHELL BAT 18 1-01-80 12:07a LIGHT COM 145 1-01-80 12:07a SOUND COM 145 1-01-80 12:07a PATCHFMT EXE 12670 1-01-80 12:08a INSTALL DAT 425 1-01-80 12:06a The original Plus install program creates a floppy diskette containing the Plus files, as above, but also performs several other operations to make it what they refer to as the "REINSTALL" diskette. This Reinstall diskette can later be used for reformatting the HardCard. Anyone have this?? I am killing myself for bricking the card and would really love to get it back. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Tue Aug 12 04:20:30 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 04:20:30 -0500 Subject: Upgrading early BIOS In-Reply-To: <200808120359.m7C3xPoZ027403@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> References: <200808120359.m7C3xPoZ027403@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> Message-ID: <48A155DE.6030203@oldskool.org> Hollandia at ccountry.net wrote: > I have tried the "cable select" settings on all of them. I assume that the > MASTER/SLAVE methodology is not mandatory. Depending on the age of the drives, it can be. Try master/slave in both combinations. The newer drive should be the master. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From fire at dls.net Tue Aug 12 05:11:43 2008 From: fire at dls.net (Bradley Slavik) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 05:11:43 -0500 Subject: Interesting article on computer history Message-ID: <8494FD5B-0947-4EE3-A495-AE2EF43A6B5A@dls.net> http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do? command=printArticleBasic&articleId=9111341 Don't have anything to add because I did not start with computers until 1978. Bradley From jack.rubin at ameritech.net Tue Aug 12 07:00:54 2008 From: jack.rubin at ameritech.net (Jack Rubin) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 07:00:54 -0500 Subject: DEC prototype cards Message-ID: <9625FB3773F44BBC8F5C2E146A618306@obie> Douglas Electronics still supplies Omnibus and other DEC prototyping cards at very reasonable prices - http://www.douglas.com/hardware/pcbs/breadboards/digital.html . Jack From emu at e-bbes.com Tue Aug 12 08:14:50 2008 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 07:14:50 -0600 Subject: PCB Artwork for DEC card edge fingers In-Reply-To: <48A0C2BE.7050809@nktelco.net> References: <48A0C2BE.7050809@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <48A18CCA.80801@e-bbes.com> Charles H Dickman wrote: > Does anybody have a PC board cad layout of the DEC card edge connector? > I have little experience with layout work and so far have been > frustrated by my attempts. What CAD system do you use ? Actually this DEC cards are not that difficult, as soon as you notice, why they were made this way ;-) Cheers From alhartman at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 08:16:08 2008 From: alhartman at yahoo.com (Al Hartman) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 09:16:08 -0400 Subject: Upgrading early BIOS In-Reply-To: <200808120506.m7C56CJN014903@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200808120506.m7C56CJN014903@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <48A18D18.4030400@yahoo.com> Why not try adding a PCI IDE adapter? It will have it's own BIOS that will over-ride the internal BIOS. You can even add a PCI SATA adapter for that matter. Computer Geeks have them pretty cheap. IF your 486 Board has PCI Slots. I know I have an ISA IDE Adapter from Future Domain here that I've never used, but I don't know if it's going to work any better with newer drives. Al From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Tue Aug 12 08:22:22 2008 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (HP-FIX) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 15:22:22 +0200 Subject: Plus Hardcard 20 software? In-Reply-To: <48A15566.8050408@oldskool.org> References: <48A15566.8050408@oldskool.org> Message-ID: Did you try SpeedStor ? A dos utility for formatting HDD's with lot's of vendor info build in the app, it's very usefll tool because it can lowlevel format and make the partions and test controller and disc.... I've a copy here and will make a copy if you like. -Rik -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Jim Leonard Verzonden: dinsdag 12 augustus 2008 11:19 Aan: General at mail.mobygames.com; Discussion at mail.mobygames.com :On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Plus Hardcard 20 software? Against better judgement, I attempted to low-level format a Plus Hardcard 20 and completely borked it (with the wrong format, the controller won't init and the thing is now a brick). Does anyone have the Plus Hardcard 20 install diskette? The HardCard is shipped in a partitioned and formatted state, with a number of files included on it. The directory of files is as follows: INSTALL EXE 47479 1-01-80 12:06a HCD BAT 30 1-01-80 12:07a HCD1 BAT 128 1-01-80 12:07a HCD2 EXE 54769 1-01-80 12:07a HCD3 DAT 13440 1-01-80 12:07a HCD3 DIF 704 1-01-80 12:07a HCD6 SCR 4224 1-01-80 12:07a PREPARE BAT 235 1-01-80 12:08a SHELL BAT 18 1-01-80 12:07a LIGHT COM 145 1-01-80 12:07a SOUND COM 145 1-01-80 12:07a PATCHFMT EXE 12670 1-01-80 12:08a INSTALL DAT 425 1-01-80 12:06a The original Plus install program creates a floppy diskette containing the Plus files, as above, but also performs several other operations to make it what they refer to as the "REINSTALL" diskette. This Reinstall diskette can later be used for reformatting the HardCard. Anyone have this?? I am killing myself for bricking the card and would really love to get it back. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.138 / Virus Database: 270.6.1/1605 - Release Date: 11-8-2008 16:59 From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 12 08:30:46 2008 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 09:30:46 -0400 Subject: INS8073 (was Re: HERO1 For sale...) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200808121332.m7CDWru5003282@keith.ezwind.net> On Mon, 11 Aug 2008 22:28:56 -0700, dwight elvey wrote: > Why does everyone always assume that Tiny BASIC was Tom Pittman's. >Palo Alto TB was the primary one used on Intel processors. This >was not even similar in coding style. The instructions were the same >because they were both basic BASIC. > As I recall, Tom did the 6800 and then the 6502. I know for a fact he was working on a RCA cosmac 1802 version when I met him years ago. I was out on the left coast on business and stopped by his house to purchase a copy for my AMI EVK300 prototype board. I expect I stil have it in storage somewhere. I will never forget the 4004 system he had out on the porch connected to a teletype punching distribution tapes. I had never seen an 8" floppy interfaced to a 4004, before or since that night. It was memorable. Bob Bradlee From Watzman at neo.rr.com Tue Aug 12 09:15:44 2008 From: Watzman at neo.rr.com (Barry Watzman) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 10:15:44 -0400 Subject: IBM EGA Programming manual: anyone have a copy? In-Reply-To: <200808120611.m7C6Bd0D016665@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200808120611.m7C6Bd0D016665@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: I have a copy of it (original IBM EGA manual), apparently I made it back in the 1980's, it's definitely a copy but it's exactly like the original (e.g. double sided in the original 5.5 x 8.5 format). It's 168 pages ... it would be a hell of a job to scan or copy, and since it's an odd page size, I can't run it through an ADF "automatically". Barry Watzman Watzman at neo.rr.com ------------------------------ Message: 12 Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 22:39:12 -0400 From: Jonathan Gevaryahu Subject: IBM EGA Programming manual: anyone have a copy? To: cctech at classiccmp.org Message-ID: <48A0F7D0.3060606 at drexel.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed I'm searching for a copy of the official IBM EGA programming manual/reference manual. If I recall correctly, in order to actually GET that manual you needed to have bought the $150? CGA/MDA programming/reference manual (or something like that) and have sent in the little registration card, and IBM sent you the EGA one in the mail. Does anyone have a copy of it? (a copy of the cga/mda one would be nice too, but isn't nearly as important) Contact me off-list (or on-list if you'd like) if you do, I'm quite willing to pay for photocopying/scanning/time/etc. -- Jonathan Gevaryahu jgevaryahu(@t)hotmail(d0t)com jzg22(@t)drexel(d0t)edu ------------------------------ From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Aug 12 10:15:52 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 11:15:52 -0400 Subject: COBOL quote in the news In-Reply-To: <1218493598.6407.37.camel@bart> References: <489ABA22.8563.F6561BF@cclist.sydex.com> <489B3CB5.7070806@brouhaha.com> <489BA401.3000306@ptdprolog.net> <48A05AF7.2020508@arachelian.com> <48A08CFC.5080303@brouhaha.com> <1218493598.6407.37.camel@bart> Message-ID: <48A1A928.1090103@gmail.com> Steve Robertson wrote: >> > or perhaps (automated) language translators; say from Cobol to Java. >> >> If you do an automated translation, the result will just be COBOL that's >> written in Java. You won't be able to find *anyone* that's good at >> maintaining that mess. >> >> Eric > > I have a friend that is working for a company Web-enabling a COBOL > application for the DOD. This is a mission critical application that > consists of thousands of data input screens and literally millions of > lines of code. It was determined that the only semi-reasonable method of > porting the application would be to use an automated tool. > > The tool interprets the COBOL and spits out the mostly equivalent JAVA > code. I am told most of the code will not compile / run without serious > modification. So a developer, conversant in both COBOL and JAVA, has to > modify the already FUBAR code. The result is a multimillion dollar > hodge-podge of code that is absolutely unmaintainable! > > My friend had been working on this project for the last 7 years and > expects to retire long before it is complete. I would've just written web primitives for COBOL, if they don't already exist. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Aug 12 10:15:52 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 11:15:52 -0400 Subject: COBOL quote in the news In-Reply-To: <1218493598.6407.37.camel@bart> References: <489ABA22.8563.F6561BF@cclist.sydex.com> <489B3CB5.7070806@brouhaha.com> <489BA401.3000306@ptdprolog.net> <48A05AF7.2020508@arachelian.com> <48A08CFC.5080303@brouhaha.com> <1218493598.6407.37.camel@bart> Message-ID: <48A1A928.1090103@gmail.com> Steve Robertson wrote: >> > or perhaps (automated) language translators; say from Cobol to Java. >> >> If you do an automated translation, the result will just be COBOL that's >> written in Java. You won't be able to find *anyone* that's good at >> maintaining that mess. >> >> Eric > > I have a friend that is working for a company Web-enabling a COBOL > application for the DOD. This is a mission critical application that > consists of thousands of data input screens and literally millions of > lines of code. It was determined that the only semi-reasonable method of > porting the application would be to use an automated tool. > > The tool interprets the COBOL and spits out the mostly equivalent JAVA > code. I am told most of the code will not compile / run without serious > modification. So a developer, conversant in both COBOL and JAVA, has to > modify the already FUBAR code. The result is a multimillion dollar > hodge-podge of code that is absolutely unmaintainable! > > My friend had been working on this project for the last 7 years and > expects to retire long before it is complete. I would've just written web primitives for COBOL, if they don't already exist. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Aug 12 10:32:18 2008 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 11:32:18 -0400 Subject: Upgrading early BIOS In-Reply-To: <200808120359.m7C3xPoZ027403@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> References: <200808120359.m7C3xPoZ027403@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> Message-ID: <48A1AD02.7070803@gmail.com> Hollandia at ccountry.net wrote: > I have tried the "cable select" settings on all of them. I assume that the > MASTER/SLAVE methodology is not mandatory. Cable select is often a giant pile of crap. Set master and slave. Peace... Sridhar From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Tue Aug 12 10:44:21 2008 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 11:44:21 -0400 Subject: COBOL quote in the news References: <489ABA22.8563.F6561BF@cclist.sydex.com> <489B3CB5.7070806@brouhaha.com> <489BA401.3000306@ptdprolog.net> <48A05AF7.2020508@arachelian.com> <48A08CFC.5080303@brouhaha.com> <1218493598.6407.37.camel@bart> <48A1A928.1090103@gmail.com> Message-ID: <18593.45013.677406.135020@chagelb-us-nash.equallogic.com> >>>>> "Sridhar" == Sridhar Ayengar writes: Sridhar> Steve Robertson wrote: >> I have a friend that is working for a company Web-enabling a >> COBOL application for the DOD. This is a mission critical >> application that consists of thousands of data input screens and >> literally millions of lines of code. It was determined that the >> only semi-reasonable method of porting the application would be to >> use an automated tool. >> ... Sridhar> I would've just written web primitives for COBOL, if they Sridhar> don't already exist. That would be the right answer. But if the customer insists on doing it the wrong way, and that customer has an infinite budget because it's our taxes paying for it, the result is programmers doing wrongheaded work for several generations. paul From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 12 10:58:47 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 08:58:47 -0700 Subject: COBOL quote in the news In-Reply-To: <48A1A928.1090103@gmail.com> References: <489ABA22.8563.F6561BF@cclist.sydex.com>, <1218493598.6407.37.camel@bart>, <48A1A928.1090103@gmail.com> Message-ID: <48A150C7.24602.339C51@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Aug 2008 at 11:15, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > I would've just written web primitives for COBOL, if they don't already > exist. If the original application were written for a terminal, I would seriously consider running it as-is inside of an environment that provided a web-based terminal interface. Sometimes, tweaking the most innocuous bit of old code can lead to catastrophic results later. Often, what clouds the picture on projects like thse is the tantalizing promise of adding new features to old code--and one of the "features" inevitably turns out to be a can of cockroaches. Cheers, Chuck From mardy at voysys.com Tue Aug 12 11:06:33 2008 From: mardy at voysys.com (Marden P. Marshall) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 12:06:33 -0400 Subject: WTB: DEC PC04 Paper Tape Reader/Punch Message-ID: <2C725119-415B-4DB2-B7C5-AADADCBED169@voysys.com> Does anyone have a DEC PC04 paper tape reader/punch that they would be interested in letting go? I'm also looking for the matching PC8-E (M840) UNIBUS controller card. Thanks, -Mardy From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Tue Aug 12 12:19:52 2008 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 14:19:52 -0300 Subject: Upgrading early BIOS References: <200808102111.m7ALBgoZ009926@mailproxy1.ccountry.net>, <48A03799.1946.F0ADD4@cclist.sydex.com>, <48A05C4C.2181.1800590@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <047f01c8fc9f$da2b0070$0102a8c0@portajara> > But this system is a Backward-Hell, right? Not exactly the tops on Would a backward-hell be the heaven? :oO From RichA at vulcan.com Tue Aug 12 12:45:02 2008 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 10:45:02 -0700 Subject: PCB Artwork for DEC card edge fingers In-Reply-To: References: <48A0C2BE.7050809@nktelco.net> Message-ID: From: Guy Sotomayor Sent: Monday, August 11, 2008 8:27 PM > On Aug 11, 2008, at 3:52 PM, Charles H Dickman wrote: >> Does anybody have a PC board cad layout of the DEC card edge connector? I >> was hoping to find it in PCB (http://pcb.sourceforge.net/index.html) format. > I've layouts in EagleCAD, but if you're not using Eagle they're not > going to be much use. As I learned after picking up Vince Slyngstad's layouts for the RF08/RS08 emulator, no one has a translator for Eagle to any other format. However, CadSoft provide a free version of Eagle which can read any size board, even though it is restricted to 80mm x 100mm for new ones; that will allow someone with another layout program a leg up on the project. Thanks, Rich Rich Alderson RichA at vulcan.com Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project (206) 342-2239 Vulcan, Inc., 505 5th Avenue S, Seattle, WA 98104 (206) 465-2916 cell From vrs at msn.com Tue Aug 12 13:19:16 2008 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 11:19:16 -0700 Subject: PCB Artwork for DEC card edge fingers References: <48A0C2BE.7050809@nktelco.net> Message-ID: From: "Rich Alderson" > From: Guy Sotomayor >> I've layouts in EagleCAD, but if you're not using Eagle they're not >> going to be much use. > > As I learned after picking up Vince Slyngstad's layouts for the > RF08/RS08 > emulator, no one has a translator for Eagle to any other format. > However, > CadSoft provide a free version of Eagle which can read any size board, > even > though it is restricted to 80mm x 100mm for new ones; that will allow > someone > with another layout program a leg up on the project. It's not as bad as that sounds. Even the freeware version of Eagle can convert to Gerber, which will let you order the boards and possibly import them (in a crude way) to another CAD program. But the best way is probably to "export script", which will export a text file with the commands to re-create the board. Then it should be possible to munge the commands into the format needed by the other CAD tool. Of course, there are still going to be the usual issues one would run into re-drawing the board, about finding equivalent components in the other tool's libraries and such. You can even export the component libraries and translate those, if you are determined enough. But I always found it easier to just use Eagle :-). Vince BTW, Guy, did you create your layouts from scratch, or use the stuff on my website? From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Tue Aug 12 13:20:09 2008 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 14:20:09 -0400 Subject: PCB Artwork for DEC card edge fingers References: <48A0C2BE.7050809@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <18593.54361.374379.937579@chagelb-us-nash.equallogic.com> >>>>> "Rich" == Rich Alderson writes: >> I've layouts in EagleCAD, but if you're not using Eagle they're >> not going to be much use. Rich> As I learned after picking up Vince Slyngstad's layouts for the Rich> RF08/RS08 emulator, no one has a translator for Eagle to any Rich> other format. Perhaps because the other commercial PCB tools all hate Cadsoft for making a program that's far cheaper than the others. And while it's more limited in some ways, it's far better in others. (I could create new device definitions in an hour or so for a 120 pin device -- something that seemed to take professionals days or weeks with the high-end tools they were using...) However, Eagle can produce PostScript output, which you should be able to import into other tools, perhaps by way of a trip through some 2D CAD or illustration tool. I just tried that -- the "CAM tool" in Eagle produces a PS file that Adobe Distiller, Adobe Illustrator, and *bletch* CorelDraw all handle correctly. paul From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 12 01:49:40 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 07:49:40 +0100 (BST) Subject: Terak 8510 system on eBay (# 300248208909) In-Reply-To: <20080811202949.GA4231@usap.gov> from "Ethan Dicks" at Aug 11, 8 08:29:49 pm Message-ID: > I've also had good results with pre-OMNIBUS PDP-8 gear by removing all > the cards, then cleaning the backplane with a chunk of manila folder, > cut to one 36-pin slot width, then dipped in >70% isopropyl alcohol > and run up and down each slot (switch to a new section when you start > to see grey streaks on the paper). That one trick has taken machines I find a bit of 80-column punched card used in much the same way is ideal for this... But perhaps it's a waste of rare punched cards these days :-( -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 12 02:01:11 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 08:01:11 +0100 (BST) Subject: WTD: DEC 11/40 power supply (main unit) model H74 In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.0.20080811220241.01f430a0@smtp.degnanco.com> from "B. Degnan" at Aug 11, 8 10:19:52 pm Message-ID: > > The part number on the front is "H74 a" and it's the big part of the power > supply in the back. In front (looking from the side) are 5 "h754" > modules. The modules and the console power are attached to the "H74 > a" Other H74x supplies should work. I think you're missing some digits.... The normal PSU for the 11/40 (at least in the 21" mounting box) is an H742 (the suffix letter gives the mains voltage IIRC). There are slots for 5 regulator 'bricks', but I thought most of them were H744s (+5V 25A) ones. I think the H754 is -15V 10A, and I can't think why you'd need 5 of those. > > Here is the wording on the unit: > > Dec Power Supply > H74 a > > Caution > AC & DC OUTPUTS ARE PRESENT > WHEN LIGHT IS ON > > POWER ON > (( )) > > > ------------ > where (( )) = the light bulb. > > System was working recently.....The supply's red indicator light no longer > comes on, nor do the console lights, though the fans still run. In the The fans _in_ the power supply -- the 3 above the 'bricks' and the one over the +15V regualtor board at the front) are run off the mains input, as is the red neon indicator at the front and, of course, the big transformer. If the fans are running, then mains is getting to the PSU, and about the only reason that the neon isn't coming on is that it's failed. That is not uncommon. have you checked the AC supplies to the bricks? You should have a 20-30V AC feed to each one. This supply is relatively repairer-friendly in that the only place you find mains is on the input to the trasnformer and, of course ,the fans, etc. All the electronic stuff is entirely isolated from the mains by that transformer. Have you checked the voltage outputs from the bricks? And the +15V output from the regualtor board? I would be very suprised if you need a complete new PSU. And quite apart from my dislike of board-swapping (or in this case assembly-swapping), it would be expensive to ship a PSU due to the massive mains transformer in it, which is very unlikely to be the problem. All the components in these PSUs apart from that transformer are standard, and AFAIK still easily avaialble (or at least substitutes are). So my advice is to grab the prints, grab a voltmeter, and jump in! -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Aug 12 02:02:51 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 08:02:51 +0100 (BST) Subject: IBM EGA Programming manual: anyone have a copy? In-Reply-To: <48A0F7D0.3060606@drexel.edu> from "Jonathan Gevaryahu" at Aug 11, 8 10:39:12 pm Message-ID: > > I'm searching for a copy of the official IBM EGA programming > manual/reference manual. > If I recall correctly, in order to actually GET that manual you needed > to have bought the $150? CGA/MDA programming/reference manual (or > something like that) and have sent in the little registration card, and > IBM sent you the EGA one in the mail. > Does anyone have a copy of it? I assuem this is not the EGA section from the O&A Techref. I have that, it inculdes the BIOS ROM source listing, schematics, and details of all the I/O ports used, but no explict programing info with examples. > (a copy of the cga/mda one would be nice too, but isn't nearly as important) > Contact me off-list (or on-list if you'd like) if you do, I'm quite Again, I have the apporopriate TechRef sections... -tony From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 12 14:20:34 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 12:20:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Upgrading early BIOS In-Reply-To: <047f01c8fc9f$da2b0070$0102a8c0@portajara> References: <200808102111.m7ALBgoZ009926@mailproxy1.ccountry.net>, <48A03799.1946.F0ADD4@cclist.sydex.com>, <48A05C4C.2181.1800590@cclist.sydex.com> <047f01c8fc9f$da2b0070$0102a8c0@portajara> Message-ID: <20080812121937.S58638@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 12 Aug 2008, Alexandre Souza wrote: > > But this system is a Backward-Hell, right? Not exactly the tops on > Would a backward-hell be the heaven? :oO No. Just with the inner circles (tracks) on the outside, etc. From bpope at wordstock.com Tue Aug 12 14:43:32 2008 From: bpope at wordstock.com (Bryan Pope) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 15:43:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Old-ish Graphic Apps (was: DEC PCB layout under Eagle) In-Reply-To: <18593.54361.374379.937579@chagelb-us-nash.equallogic.com> Message-ID: <20080812194332.28A4256F59@mail.wordstock.com> And thusly were the wise words spake by Paul Koning > > I just tried that -- the "CAM tool" in Eagle produces a PS file that > Adobe Distiller, Adobe Illustrator, and *bletch* CorelDraw all handle > correctly. > HA! Yet CorelDraw *used* to be *the* vector art app. And Harvard Graphics was the presentation software at the time.. (IMHO) Cheers, Bryan From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Aug 12 14:55:19 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 12:55:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Where to find memory ICs? In-Reply-To: <48A1233F.9030909@oldskool.org> References: <200808080620.m786KSv8054131@dewey.classiccmp.org> <48A1233F.9030909@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <20080812125157.J58638@shell.lmi.net> Surely, the cheapest source of old memory ICs is removing them from old memory boards. A J-RAM/J-Laser or Intel AboveBoard can yield a lot of chips. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Tue Aug 12 15:02:12 2008 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 16:02:12 -0400 Subject: Old-ish Graphic Apps (was: DEC PCB layout under Eagle) References: <18593.54361.374379.937579@chagelb-us-nash.equallogic.com> <20080812194332.28A4256F59@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <18593.60484.263908.741372@chagelb-us-nash.equallogic.com> >>>>> "Bryan" == Bryan Pope writes: Bryan> And thusly were the wise words spake by Paul Koning >> I just tried that -- the "CAM tool" in Eagle produces a PS file >> that Adobe Distiller, Adobe Illustrator, and *bletch* CorelDraw >> all handle correctly. >> Bryan> HA! Yet CorelDraw *used* to be *the* vector art app. And Bryan> Harvard Graphics was the presentation software at the time.. Bryan> (IMHO) Yes, CorelDraw V3 wasn't all that bad. Pretty basic, but useable, and cheaper than Illustrator. And one or two versions later it acquired multi-page support, which is the one and only reason I still use it (Illustrator still doesn't have that). However, it also acquired many bugs, and a randomly-changing UI. Every new release creates a large collection of new bugs, and a new randomly different UI. Corel long ago lost any claim to software competence that it might ever have had. I can't think of any other software company whose quality is anywhere near as low as that outfit. paul From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Tue Aug 12 16:18:17 2008 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 17:18:17 -0400 Subject: Old-ish Graphic Apps (was: DEC PCB layout under Eagle) In-Reply-To: <18593.60484.263908.741372@chagelb-us-nash.equallogic.com> References: <18593.54361.374379.937579@chagelb-us-nash.equallogic.com> <20080812194332.28A4256F59@mail.wordstock.com> <18593.60484.263908.741372@chagelb-us-nash.equallogic.com> Message-ID: <5f7d1b0e0808121418s1a3c644fx67367b2de39174ee@mail.gmail.com> My high school had a pretty high tech (for the time) computer graphics lab. I remember using DeluxePaint and DeluxePaint Animator on PS/2s. We even had a super high-tech IBM AT upgraded to a 386, running Targa TIPS with a framegrabber card and an EM graphics tablet. The coolest by far was the souped up PS/2 running Windows 3 with Fractal Design Painter. You could get a cup of coffee while the screen painted, but procedural brushes where the bomb in the early 90's. From legalize at xmission.com Tue Aug 12 16:24:01 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 15:24:01 -0600 Subject: Software decay (was: Old-ish Graphic Apps (was: DEC PCB layout under Eagle)) In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 12 Aug 2008 16:02:12 -0400. <18593.60484.263908.741372@chagelb-us-nash.equallogic.com> Message-ID: In article <18593.60484.263908.741372 at chagelb-us-nash.equallogic.com>, Paul Koning writes: > Corel long ago lost any claim to software competence that it might > ever have had. I can't think of any other software company whose > quality is anywhere near as low as that outfit. More than likely what happened is that the employees who had the design in their heads ceased to be employees. They quit and took the valuable "unwritten law" of how everything worked with them. The people who were brought on to implement new features probably had a difficult time understanding how the existing code worked and/or were afraid to do any serious changes on it for fear of how wrong it could go. And of course, the application didn't have a suite of unit tests covering all the code, so without having that internal knowledge of the structure that comes from having written it yourself, new changes become riskier and riskier. See Brian Foote's excellent essay "Big Ball of Mud" on how this can happen, even with well meaning, smart employees. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 12 17:54:26 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 15:54:26 -0700 Subject: Old-ish Graphic Apps (was: DEC PCB layout under Eagle) In-Reply-To: <20080812194332.28A4256F59@mail.wordstock.com> References: <18593.54361.374379.937579@chagelb-us-nash.equallogic.com>, <20080812194332.28A4256F59@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <48A1B232.24818.1B0229C@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Aug 2008 at 15:43, Bryan Pope wrote: > And thusly were the wise words spake by Paul Koning > > > > I just tried that -- the "CAM tool" in Eagle produces a PS file that > > Adobe Distiller, Adobe Illustrator, and *bletch* CorelDraw all handle > > correctly. > > > > HA! Yet CorelDraw *used* to be *the* vector art app. And Harvard > Graphics was the presentation software at the time.. (IMHO) Heck, I still use OrCAD/386. Much simpler to use than the Windoze- based versions. There are some who still use the older DOS OrCAD. Cheers, Chuck From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Aug 12 18:12:09 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 19:12:09 -0400 Subject: Old-ish Graphic Apps (was: DEC PCB layout under Eagle) In-Reply-To: <48A1B232.24818.1B0229C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <18593.54361.374379.937579@chagelb-us-nash.equallogic.com> <20080812194332.28A4256F59@mail.wordstock.com> <48A1B232.24818.1B0229C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200808121912.09943.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 12 August 2008, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 12 Aug 2008 at 15:43, Bryan Pope wrote: > > And thusly were the wise words spake by Paul Koning > > > > > I just tried that -- the "CAM tool" in Eagle produces a PS file > > > that Adobe Distiller, Adobe Illustrator, and *bletch* CorelDraw > > > all handle correctly. > > > > HA! Yet CorelDraw *used* to be *the* vector art app. And Harvard > > Graphics was the presentation software at the time.. (IMHO) > > Heck, I still use OrCAD/386. Much simpler to use than the Windoze- > based versions. There are some who still use the older DOS OrCAD. I prefer to use xfig. :) Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Tue Aug 12 18:13:18 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 23:13:18 +0000 Subject: Old-ish Graphic Apps (was: DEC PCB layout under Eagle) In-Reply-To: <48A1B232.24818.1B0229C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20080812194332.28A4256F59@mail.wordstock.com> <48A1B232.24818.1B0229C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20080812231318.GA29328@usap.gov> On Tue, Aug 12, 2008 at 03:54:26PM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Heck, I still use OrCAD/386. Much simpler to use than the Windoze- > based versions. There are some who still use the older DOS OrCAD. OrCAD DOS was the first schematic capture tool I used, back when it was current. I still have a 486 on the shelf that has it installed (but I originally used it on a 5170 PC c. 1989) I've gotten used to EagleCAD, but I did like the crispness of OrCAD for DOS over the Windows version (the difference being that the DOS version renders right to the framebuffer in some high-res mode compared to what we were using for Windows resolution at the time). ISTR using some extended EGA mode in DOS, since the number of colors (up to 16) wasn't critical. _If_ OrCAD for DOS can use VESA drivers, there are now some really nice resolutions on not-entirely-modern cards that we just didn't have back then. That, and now it's trivial to get a large-format monitor that was just dreams back then - I suppose any clunkiness with the UI would stand out running it on a semi-up-to-date platform, though. I haven't actually fired OrCAD up since I started playing with EagleCAD a number of years ago. If I had to do a commercial product, though, I _do_ still have all the old tools (OrCAD, PADS PCB, and some layout package for the Amiga I had to buy c. 1993 to produce the GG2 Bus+) so I wouldn't _have_ to upgrade from the hobbyist Cadsoft license, but in the end it would probably still be worth the expense if I thought I could make the license cost back in sales). -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 12-Aug-2008 at 23:00 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -78.7 F (-61.5 C) Windchill -118.8 F (-83.8 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 12.0 kts Grid 55 Barometer 675.9 mb (10783 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 11:08:56 2008 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 09:08:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Intel 4004 from discrete SMD transistors Message-ID: <862099.67000.qm@web50509.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > http://www.4004.com/ I forgot to point out that they are still requesting volunteers at the project web page linked to above (under the "How can I contact you?" heading). I'm surprised that I can't find anywhere on-line a project to create an entire MCS4 system on a single, low-end FPGA. Am I just missing it? From cclist at sydex.com Tue Aug 12 19:12:07 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 17:12:07 -0700 Subject: Old-ish Graphic Apps (was: DEC PCB layout under Eagle) In-Reply-To: <20080812231318.GA29328@usap.gov> References: <20080812194332.28A4256F59@mail.wordstock.com>, <48A1B232.24818.1B0229C@cclist.sydex.com>, <20080812231318.GA29328@usap.gov> Message-ID: <48A1C467.1037.1F73E8F@cclist.sydex.com> On 12 Aug 2008 at 23:13, Ethan Dicks wrote: > _If_ OrCAD for DOS can use VESA drivers, there are now some really > nice resolutions on not-entirely-modern cards that we just didn't have > back then. That, and now it's trivial to get a large-format monitor > that was just dreams back then - I suppose any clunkiness with the UI > would stand out running it on a semi-up-to-date platform, though. There's a Yahoo Group called OldDosOrcad that has a file section with some updated drivers (at quick glance up to 1920x1280). A bunch of other interesting stuff too. Cheers, Chuck From wbblair3 at yahoo.com Tue Aug 12 10:20:09 2008 From: wbblair3 at yahoo.com (William Blair) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 08:20:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Intel 4004 from discrete SMD transistors In-Reply-To: <200808111700.m7BH053b005415@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <628783.31692.qm@web50511.mail.re2.yahoo.com> About the web page I posted the link for yesterday: http://www.4004.com/ I emailed the owner of the site to ask a question and got an interesting response: The right-hand 4004 exhibit photo at the top of the page looks like a 4004 reproduced with surface mount devices on a PC board. Is that what it is? If so, where is it specifically discussed in the text? Thanks, Bill Hi Bill, Those are indeed surface-mount transistors positioned where the original transistors are on the chip, but the photo is of a non-functional prototype currently on exhibit at the Intel Museum. Alas, we are still working on our ultimate goal of building a fully functional reproduction of the 4004, and displaying that in a museum or two. There is no write-up because this ambitious part of the saga is still in-progress, and because we're all busy professionals with "day jobs," there is currently no estimated completion date. Since you expressed an interest, here's where we're at: we have a verified netlist from the schematics, and an unverified netlist we painstakingly extracted from the mask artwork. It contains key geometry information we need for layout and routing, but also some errors we need to find and fix. We ran into a snag reconciling the two netlists (it is an "NP hard" problem), but I think we're getting close to a solution. Then we can move to the PC board layout stage, build another giant prototype, and start debugging... I'm crossing my fingers and praying that we can finish the project by this upcoming 37th anniversary of the 4004 product announcement back on November 15 of 1971. --Tim From billdeg at degnanco.com Tue Aug 12 21:08:07 2008 From: billdeg at degnanco.com (B. Degnan) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 22:08:07 -0400 Subject: Correction - WTD: H742a Power Supply PDP 11/40 Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.0.20080812215957.020767f8@smtp.degnanco.com> Correction to earlier post. I am looking for a H742a Power Supply PDP 11/40. Bill From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Aug 12 21:23:48 2008 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 19:23:48 -0700 Subject: PCB Artwork for DEC card edge fingers In-Reply-To: References: <48A0C2BE.7050809@nktelco.net> Message-ID: <6EB3A9B2-E361-4E43-BE33-8A0ED5CAD928@shiresoft.com> On Aug 12, 2008, at 11:19 AM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > From: "Rich Alderson" >> From: Guy Sotomayor >>> I've layouts in EagleCAD, but if you're not using Eagle they're >>> not going to be much use. >> As I learned after picking up Vince Slyngstad's layouts for the >> RF08/RS08 >> emulator, no one has a translator for Eagle to any other format. >> However, >> CadSoft provide a free version of Eagle which can read any size >> board, >> even >> though it is restricted to 80mm x 100mm for new ones; that will allow >> someone >> with another layout program a leg up on the project. > > It's not as bad as that sounds. Even the freeware version of Eagle > can convert to Gerber, which will let you order the boards and > possibly import them (in a crude way) to another CAD program. > > But the best way is probably to "export script", which will export a > text file with the commands to re-create the board. Then it should > be possible to munge the commands into the format needed by the > other CAD tool. Of course, there are still going to be the usual > issues one would run into re-drawing the board, about finding > equivalent components in the other tool's libraries and such. > > You can even export the component libraries and translate those, if > you are determined enough. But I always found it easier to just use > Eagle :-). I know folks who've written translators using Eagle to export the design from Eagle to some other (documented) format, used another tool for some things and then re-imported it back into Eagle. The scripting language (and it *is* a programming language) in Eagle is extremely powerful - it gives you full access to all of the internals. It's the *only* way to create large complex devices/ packages - try creating a 200 pin SMD connector with .3mm pitch by hand. > > > BTW, Guy, did you create your layouts from scratch, or use the stuff > on my website? I started from those but have gone on from there. TTFN - Guy From brain at jbrain.com Tue Aug 12 21:48:24 2008 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 21:48:24 -0500 Subject: PCB Artwork for DEC card edge fingers In-Reply-To: <6EB3A9B2-E361-4E43-BE33-8A0ED5CAD928@shiresoft.com> References: <48A0C2BE.7050809@nktelco.net> <6EB3A9B2-E361-4E43-BE33-8A0ED5CAD928@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <48A24B78.5060104@jbrain.com> Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> You can even export the component libraries and translate those, if >> you are determined enough. But I always found it easier to just use >> Eagle :-). Although I can understand the "FLOSS purists" shunning the app for philosophical reasons, I find it's a nice tool. While there are arguably better GUIs out there for the price, the amount of libraries for EAGLE seems to dwarf the other CAD options. And, since I've already learned the GUI, I find there's little incentive to go to another tool. To keep it on topic, it would seem there are far worse things in life than having the DEC card edge connector in EAGLE. Jim From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Tue Aug 12 22:31:00 2008 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 20:31:00 -0700 Subject: IBM system/34 5340 plus 5251 Terminals on Craigslist In-Reply-To: <48A24B78.5060104@jbrain.com> References: <48A0C2BE.7050809@nktelco.net> <6EB3A9B2-E361-4E43-BE33-8A0ED5CAD928@shiresoft.com> <48A24B78.5060104@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <48A25574.2040508@sbcglobal.net> Saw this IBM System 32 on Craigslist in the SF bay area: http://sfbay.craigslist.org/eby/sys/794072481.html Someone out there must want it. Bob From gordon at gjcp.net Tue Aug 12 03:42:42 2008 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon J. C. Pearce) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 09:42:42 +0100 Subject: QBus framebuffers, was Re: Terak 8510 system on eBay In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20080811110331.06ef9b80@mail.threedee.com> References: <489FCEE7.5080908@crash.com> <51ea77730808102333s71d1a6a6mf878daa87ff6dfe9@mail.gmail.com> <489FE002.3040705@crash.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20080811110331.06ef9b80@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: <1218530562.13789.1.camel@kusanagi> All this talk of Teraks reminds me, it's about time for my approximately semi-annual QBus framebuffer hunt. Is anyone keen to sell such a thing? Gordon From snhirsch at gmail.com Tue Aug 12 12:03:23 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 13:03:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Terak 8510 system on eBay In-Reply-To: <48A05B0E.9080403@bitsavers.org> References: <48A05B0E.9080403@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: >> It's listed for $199 plus shipping for the main unit I picked up three or four units with disk drives about 12 years ago at University of Vermont's surplus sale. Had no idea what they were and could not find anyone who did. Ended up parting them out and keeping the drive mechanisms. Blast. Steve -- From iamvirtual at gmail.com Tue Aug 12 14:48:09 2008 From: iamvirtual at gmail.com (B M) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 13:48:09 -0600 Subject: Paper Tape Reader Message-ID: <2645f9870808121248h7722d765n1894fc7d5e414de4@mail.gmail.com> Does anyone know of a source for a [relatively] cheap paper tape reader suitable for reading standard DEC paper tapes? I have several paper tapes from a PDP-11/20 that I would like to read, and of course, share :-). Something like the OP-80 from Oliver Engineering would be suitable. Thanks. --barrym From wgungfu at uwm.edu Wed Aug 13 01:13:49 2008 From: wgungfu at uwm.edu (wgungfu at uwm.edu) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 01:13:49 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 expansion interface? In-Reply-To: <628783.31692.qm@web50511.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <628783.31692.qm@web50511.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1218608029.48a27b9d13155@panthermail.uwm.edu> Does anyone have a TRS-80 model I expansion interface they're willing to part with? I just rescued a Model I (second edition with the numeric keypad), and I'd like to track one down for use/display purposes. I'm also looking for a Model III in the Wisconsin area (i.e. driving distance). Thanks! Marty From bear at typewritten.org Wed Aug 13 02:27:33 2008 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 00:27:33 -0700 Subject: IBM system/34 5340 plus 5251 Terminals on Craigslist In-Reply-To: <48A25574.2040508@sbcglobal.net> References: <48A0C2BE.7050809@nktelco.net> <6EB3A9B2-E361-4E43-BE33-8A0ED5CAD928@shiresoft.com> <48A24B78.5060104@jbrain.com> <48A25574.2040508@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Aug 12, 2008, at 8:31 PM, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > Someone out there must want it. I'd certainly like one of the 5251s to materialize in Seattle. ok bear From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Wed Aug 13 02:40:31 2008 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 00:40:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: questbusters Message-ID: Does anyone here have a collection of Questbusters newsletters? I just acquired some from my brother who asked me to sell them. I'd like to see if I can get scans gathered together. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From emu at e-bbes.com Wed Aug 13 04:31:37 2008 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 03:31:37 -0600 Subject: QBus framebuffers, was Re: Terak 8510 system on eBay In-Reply-To: <1218530562.13789.1.camel@kusanagi> References: <489FCEE7.5080908@crash.com> <51ea77730808102333s71d1a6a6mf878daa87ff6dfe9@mail.gmail.com> <489FE002.3040705@crash.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20080811110331.06ef9b80@mail.threedee.com> <1218530562.13789.1.camel@kusanagi> Message-ID: <48A2A9F9.9070103@e-bbes.com> Gordon J. C. Pearce wrote: > All this talk of Teraks reminds me, it's about time for my approximately > semi-annual QBus framebuffer hunt. Is anyone keen to sell such a thing? What exactly are you looking for ? From coredump at gifford.co.uk Wed Aug 13 08:52:24 2008 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 14:52:24 +0100 Subject: Old-ish Graphic Apps In-Reply-To: <20080812194332.28A4256F59@mail.wordstock.com> References: <20080812194332.28A4256F59@mail.wordstock.com> Message-ID: <48A2E718.2030904@gifford.co.uk> Bryan Pope wrote: > And thusly were the wise words spake by Paul Koning > >>I just tried that -- the "CAM tool" in Eagle produces a PS file that >>Adobe Distiller, Adobe Illustrator, and *bletch* CorelDraw all handle >>correctly. > > HA! Yet CorelDraw *used* to be *the* vector art app. And Harvard > Graphics was the presentation software at the time.. (IMHO) I used to write presentation graphics software for the London Software Studio, back in 1986-88. Harvard Graphics was out big competitor at the time -- what happened to it? Our software was called EPPS, the Enhanced Personal Presentation System, and ran on PCs with EGA cards. Then, the VGA came out and we got a bit left behind. I still have some demo code in C that I wrote on a PS/2 Model 80 for manipulating the VGA palette chip and doing all sorts of new and exciting things that never got into a product. PS. I had a copy of the EGA programming manual that was mentioned in another thread, but of course that was lost a long time ago. -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Wed Aug 13 09:38:25 2008 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko at juno.com) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 14:38:25 GMT Subject: Terak 8510 system on eBay Message-ID: <20080813.073825.221.0@webmail23.vgs.untd.com> Geez, that hurts. They're 'investment grade' systems now. Major bummer. I saw a couple, some years ago, rusting away in a scrapyard in the midwest. They used to belong to Boeing. Damaged beyond all repair. Lots of heartache to go around . . . . -- Steven Hirsch wrote: >> It's listed for $199 plus shipping for the main unit I picked up three or four units with disk drives about 12 years ago at University of Vermont's surplus sale. Had no idea what they were and could not find anyone who did. Ended up parting them out and keeping the drive mechanisms. Blast. Steve -- ____________________________________________________________ Click to make millions by owning your own franchise. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3m6iRzCLyaA7qgoeQCz0rN6r7dwtkStTgWyHBx6mGxQSR5Pg/ From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Aug 13 10:29:10 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 11:29:10 -0400 Subject: Paper Tape Reader Message-ID: <01C8FD37.F63116E0@host-208-72-122-85.dyn.295.ca> ----------Original Message: Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 13:48:09 -0600 From: "B M" Subject: Paper Tape Reader Does anyone know of a source for a [relatively] cheap paper tape reader suitable for reading standard DEC paper tapes? I have several paper tapes from a PDP-11/20 that I would like to read, and of course, share :-). Something like the OP-80 from Oliver Engineering would be suitable. Thanks. --barrym ----------Reply: I've got 4 or 5 different models of PPT readers (and some perfs), but none quite as simple as the OP-80 and they'd all require some custom interfacing; what's [relatively] cheap ??? Contact me off-list if interested; thanks. mike From kth at srv.net Wed Aug 13 10:41:29 2008 From: kth at srv.net (Kevin Handy) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 09:41:29 -0600 Subject: BASIC-Plus decompiler In-Reply-To: <18585.62739.925542.749745@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <4898D271.6040002@jetnet.ab.ca> <200808052244.m75Miafp032342@floodgap.com> <4898C2BC.606.7B6FBFE@cclist.sydex.com> <18585.45160.30500.762066@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <6.2.3.4.2.20080806104205.05d2ee20@mail.threedee.com> <18585.52665.834481.493383@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <6.2.3.4.2.20080806113327.058f6580@mail.threedee.com> <18585.56980.456590.989156@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <6.2.3.4.2.20080806125406.092d0070@mail.threedee.com> <18585.62739.925542.749745@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <48A300A9.6060005@srv.net> Paul Koning wrote: > You may be missing the different product names. > "BASIC-PLUS" and "BASIC-PLUS-2" are very different beasts. (I haven't > seen BASIC-PLUS-1 before, that wasn't a normal designation but the > meaning is obvious.) > > BP was a P-code ("push-pop code") incremental compiler. It runs only > on RSTS. > Right. It compiled into a "reverse polish" format. It runs a lot like "java" does now. Unlike Mirosoft basic, it does not have to be re-interpreted every time the line is executed. The execution just executes the p-code step by step. > BP2 was a regular compiler; it would produce object files which you'd > feed to TKB to get your RSX-format executables. It ran on RSTS, RSX, > and VMS. > And I have never seen a decompiler for BP2. It may be possible, but I've never seen one. > >From the point of view of language, BP2 was pretty much a superset of > BP though not exactly. You could certainly write the intersection of > the two very easily. At DEC, that was the practice for RSTS tools > because, at least for a while, they needed to be useable for customers > who didn't have the BP2 optional (extra cost) product installed. > Later that was dropped due to the introduction of "CSPCOM", a limited > BP2 variant. > As I understand it, CSPCOM was an earlier version of BP2, without much of the supporting software. > The decompilers you're describing are for BP, not BP2. PPcode was > just "high level" enough that you could get reasonably intellegible > decompile output. I don't think the decompile would actually produce > BASIC source; instead it was more like an annotated disassembly that > you could read with some effort. At least that's what I recall from > the one or two occasions where I tried one of those decompilers. > The two that I have generate runnable code. Sometimes it generates a wrong instruction in weird cases, iirc, rarely used code like "x = y until z" would sometimes decompile wrongly, but it normally worked. The decompilers I have take the "reverse polish", and transform it back to the original form. The code you get back nay not look exactly like the original (the original parentheses are long gone), but it was equivalent code. BP p-code was not optimized in any way. 1+2+3 was compiled as "1 2 + 3 +", and not as "6", for example. This is what made decompiling possible, and actually fairly easy. The biggest problem was the limited memory space for the decompiler. > By contrast, BP did support "LIST" but it would do that by saving the > source text (in a temporary file) as well as the P-code > representation; LIST would give you the saved source text. > Basic Plus kept both the original source and the p-code. "Save" would save the source, "compile" would save the p-code. Unlike Microsoft basic, BP did nothing to the original source, like extracting spaces. Microsoft basic would convert the source to tokens (in place) whenever possible, and typing the code in lower case would cause this tokenization to fail, resulting in larger and slower code. From mike at brickfieldspark.org Wed Aug 13 10:57:20 2008 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 16:57:20 +0100 Subject: Paper Tape Reader References: <2645f9870808121248h7722d765n1894fc7d5e414de4@mail.gmail.com> <48A2C4A8.5070505@acc.umu.se> Message-ID: <001501c8fd5d$455d56f0$961ca8c0@mss.local> There is a design one kicking around on Epay somewhere that hooks up to a parallel port (I believe) but no mechanics. Seller claims you can pull tape through with no drop outs. Sorry cant find the link at the moment but will have a hunt around for it. Looks very similar to the Oliver Engineering OP-80 but the pcb's were properly finished with green resist and silk screens, also had test tapes. Looks like a simple design must be relatively simple to replicate. Mike. > > B M wrote: >> Does anyone know of a source for a [relatively] cheap paper tape >> reader suitable for reading standard DEC paper tapes? I have several >> paper tapes from a PDP-11/20 that I would like to read, and of course, >> share :-). Something like the OP-80 from Oliver Engineering would be >> suitable. >> >> Thanks. >> >> --barrym >> > > From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Aug 13 11:00:16 2008 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 09:00:16 -0700 Subject: Upgrading early BIOS In-Reply-To: <48A10CA4.8050106@tdh.com> References: <200808120359.m7C3xPoZ027403@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> <48A10CA4.8050106@tdh.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 9:08 PM, Michael Lee wrote: > Cable select may not work with those systems, and or drives. I always set > the master/slave for systems from that era to avoid issues. I always set master/slave for later model systems as well. I'm still not willing to count on a drive being able to figure out correctly which connector it's connected to. Especially not for a cheap IDC40 connector that can barely hang onto the ribbon cable in the first place. Eric From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Aug 13 11:12:05 2008 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 09:12:05 -0700 Subject: Upgrading early BIOS In-Reply-To: <200808120359.m7C3xPoZ027403@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> References: <200808120359.m7C3xPoZ027403@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Aug 11, 2008 at 8:59 PM, wrote: > The BIOS also allows two User-Defined Types, in which the parameters can > have the following ranges: > > Cylinders: 0-9999 > Heads: 0-99 > Write Precomp: 0-9999 > Landing Zone: 0-9999 > Sectors: 0-99 The BIOS may allow you to set parameters to those values, but it probably won't work with more than 63 sectors, especially if you're using DOS. It also probably won't work with more than 1024 cylinders and 16 heads (again depending upon the OS). LZ and Write Precomp mean nothing on a modern IDE drive. I usually set LZ to the number of cylinders -1 and Wreite Precomp to 0. I would guess that with a BIOS this early you are in the 504MB limit era. > I have tried the "cable select" settings on all of them. I assume that the > MASTER/SLAVE methodology is not mandatory. The concept of "cable select" hadn't been invented when this machine was built. Use master/slave. Eric From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Aug 13 11:17:02 2008 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 09:17:02 -0700 Subject: Upgrading early BIOS In-Reply-To: <48A18D18.4030400@yahoo.com> References: <200808120506.m7C56CJN014903@dewey.classiccmp.org> <48A18D18.4030400@yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 12, 2008 at 6:16 AM, Al Hartman wrote: > Why not try adding a PCI IDE adapter? It will have it's own BIOS that will > over-ride the internal BIOS. With an Award 486 BIOS v1.01, this machine doesn't have PCI slots. In fact I doubt that it would even have VESA Local Bus (VLB) slots. I would make a wild assed guess that this is a reworked 386 motherboard with 7 ISA slots, 3 of which are 16bit and one of which has a proprietary 32bit ISA extension for use as memory expansion. How close did I come, Kurt? Eric From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 13 11:49:02 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 09:49:02 -0700 Subject: Upgrading early BIOS In-Reply-To: References: <200808120359.m7C3xPoZ027403@mailproxy1.ccountry.net>, Message-ID: <48A2AE0E.31729.469922@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Aug 2008 at 9:12, Eric J Korpela wrote: > The concept of "cable select" hadn't been invented when this machine > was built. Use master/slave. Is not the operation of "cable select" a function of the cable and not the mobo? If the OP is using a "cable select" IDE cable, he can use CS with no problem. That business with him mentioning CS is what made me wonder if he wasn't also using a UDMA cable (which by the standard also supports CS). (It's starting to get pretty hard to find *new* non-UDMA cables nowadays). If that's the case, then any UDMA-capable drives will be operating in that mode, which will not work with his old system. If he's using non-UDMA drives, then the cable won't matter. Cheers, Chuck From jzg22 at drexel.edu Wed Aug 13 12:11:02 2008 From: jzg22 at drexel.edu (Jonathan Gevaryahu) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 13:11:02 -0400 Subject: IBM EGA Programming manual: anyone have a copy? In-Reply-To: <200808131701.m7DH1LC5036319@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200808131701.m7DH1LC5036319@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <48A315A6.80909@drexel.edu> ------------------------------ > Message: 3 > Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 08:02:51 +0100 (BST) > From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) > Subject: Re: IBM EGA Programming manual: anyone have a copy? > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain > > >> I'm searching for a copy of the official IBM EGA programming >> manual/reference manual. >> If I recall correctly, in order to actually GET that manual you needed >> to have bought the $150? CGA/MDA programming/reference manual (or >> something like that) and have sent in the little registration card, and >> IBM sent you the EGA one in the mail. >> Does anyone have a copy of it? >> > > I assuem this is not the EGA section from the O&A Techref. I have that, > it inculdes the BIOS ROM source listing, schematics, and details of all > the I/O ports used, but no explict programing info with examples. > > >> (a copy of the cga/mda one would be nice too, but isn't nearly as important) >> Contact me off-list (or on-list if you'd like) if you do, I'm quite >> > > Again, I have the apporopriate TechRef sections... > > -tony > > > > ------------------------------ > Yes, it was that. Barry Watzman sent me a scan of his photocopied copy of it. -- Jonathan Gevaryahu jgevaryahu(@t)hotmail(d0t)com jzg22(@t)drexel(d0t)edu From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Aug 13 13:21:15 2008 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 11:21:15 -0700 Subject: Paper Tape Reader In-Reply-To: <001501c8fd5d$455d56f0$961ca8c0@mss.local> References: <2645f9870808121248h7722d765n1894fc7d5e414de4@mail.gmail.com> <48A2C4A8.5070505@acc.umu.se> <001501c8fd5d$455d56f0$961ca8c0@mss.local> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90808131121y98012e7h85fb3a5571a7c096@mail.gmail.com> On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 8:57 AM, Mike Hatch wrote: > There is a design one kicking around on Epay somewhere that hooks up to a > parallel port (I believe) but no mechanics. Seller claims you can pull tape > through with no drop outs. Sorry cant find the link at the moment but will > have a hunt around for it. > This one by "mikesdavis" ? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150267933071 From legalize at xmission.com Wed Aug 13 14:03:58 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 13:03:58 -0600 Subject: Old-ish Graphic Apps In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 13 Aug 2008 14:52:24 +0100. <48A2E718.2030904@gifford.co.uk> Message-ID: In article <48A2E718.2030904 at gifford.co.uk>, John Honniball writes: > I used to write presentation graphics software for the London > Software Studio, back in 1986-88. Harvard Graphics was out big > competitor at the time -- what happened to it? It appears to still be around -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From dm561 at torfree.net Wed Aug 13 14:36:04 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 15:36:04 -0400 Subject: Upgrading early BIOS Message-ID: <01C8FD5A.7B872EC0@mandr71> ----------Original Message(s): Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 09:49:02 -0700 From: "Chuck Guzis" Subject: Re: Upgrading early BIOS On 13 Aug 2008 at 9:12, Eric J Korpela wrote: > The concept of "cable select" hadn't been invented when this machine > was built. Use master/slave. Is not the operation of "cable select" a function of the cable and not the mobo? If the OP is using a "cable select" IDE cable, he can use CS with no problem. That business with him mentioning CS is what made me wonder if he wasn't also using a UDMA cable (which by the standard also supports CS). (It's starting to get pretty hard to find *new* non-UDMA cables nowadays). If that's the case, then any UDMA-capable drives will be operating in that mode, which will not work with his old system. If he's using non-UDMA drives, then the cable won't matter. Cheers, Chuck ---------------Reply: AFAIK cable select has always been an option with Parallel ATA drives, although it was rarely used in pre-UDMA days; the cable was obviously different (40 conductors with standard connectors vs. 80 conductors and unique special connectors) and the order of the drives was usually reversed (i.e. the slave on the end of the cable). It's the motherboard that determines the cable type and mode from pin 34, which is grounded at the mobo end in a UDMA cable, so if the mobo isn't UDMA-aware I don't think the drives would be, and the cable wouldn't matter. Also, not all drives supported CS. Bottom line: don't use CS with pre-UDMA drives, cables and/or motherboards unless you're certain that all three support it, and even master/slave can be problematic with very old IDE drives. More info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_Drive_Electronics m From legalize at xmission.com Wed Aug 13 15:49:40 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 14:49:40 -0600 Subject: Terak 8510 system on eBay In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 13 Aug 2008 14:38:25 +0000. <20080813.073825.221.0@webmail23.vgs.untd.com> Message-ID: Got it! Actually I got it for less than I expected -- $1275. Still, its the single most expensive item I've bought to date. However, I'd say this is going to be one of the most important items in my collection of graphics gear. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 13 15:49:22 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 13:49:22 -0700 Subject: Upgrading early BIOS In-Reply-To: <01C8FD5A.7B872EC0@mandr71> References: <01C8FD5A.7B872EC0@mandr71> Message-ID: <48A2E662.20176.1229D90@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Aug 2008 at 15:36, M H Stein wrote: > AFAIK cable select has always been an option with Parallel ATA drives, > although it was rarely used in pre-UDMA days; the cable was obviously > different (40 conductors with standard connectors vs. 80 conductors and > unique special connectors) and the order of the drives was usually reversed > (i.e. the slave on the end of the cable). Nope--I've got a couple of very early Conner and Maxtor drives (less than 100 MB)--CS isn't an option on the jumpers. > It's the motherboard that determines the cable type and mode from pin 34, > which is grounded at the mobo end in a UDMA cable, so if the mobo isn't > UDMA-aware I don't think the drives would be, and the cable wouldn't matter. > Also, not all drives supported CS. Read the Wiki article you cited: "Pin 34: Pin 34 is connected to ground inside the blue connector of an 80 conductor cable but not attached to any conductor of the cable. It is attached normally on the gray and black connectors". On UDMA-66 capable drives, it's the cable, not the mobo that dictates speed. Put an ordinary 40 conductor cable on a UDMA-capable drive and mobo, and the configuration won't take advantage of it. When the changeover was in progress, we used to get support calls quite often on the subject of UDMA cables and drives on non-UDMA mobos. Similarly: "With the 40-wire cable it was very common to implement cable select by simply cutting the pin 28 wire between the two device connectors; putting the slave device at the end of the cable, and the master on the "middle" connector. This arrangement eventually was standardized in later versions. If there is just one device on the cable, this results in an unused "stub" of cable, which is undesirable for physical convenience and electrical reasons. The stub causes signal reflections, particularly at higher transfer rates." Bottom line is that if you use a non-CS-capable (i.e. 40 conductor "straight through") cable, it won't work. Depending on what the mobo/controller end does with pin 28, you'll have either two masters or two slaves on the same cable. Cheers, Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Aug 13 17:19:39 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 15:19:39 -0700 Subject: Terak 8510 system on eBay Message-ID: <48A35DFB.6030600@bitsavers.org> You can find a Terak emulator here: http://sourceforge.net/projects/bk-terak-emu/ Schematics of the boards would be nice to find. I have pics of the boards on bitsavers. If it ends up you're missing boards, I have a CPU, but no monitor or keyboard, and at this point it seems about as likely to finding a kb/monitor for my PERQ. From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Aug 13 17:26:44 2008 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 22:26:44 +0000 (GMT) Subject: 68000 ASM Message-ID: <950602.63067.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Hi, I am writing a little 68000 ASM code so I can add a few of my own commands to AMOS Basic. Whilst searching online I found this great page: http://www.virtualdub.org/blog/pivot/entry.php?id=84 It mentions a "green-covered" issue of Byte with programming tips for the 68000 (eg. moveq #0 is faster than clr.l 0!). Does anyone have this issue and can I have a copy of it? Or at the very least, the issue number so I can hunt it down, please? Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From RichA at vulcan.com Wed Aug 13 18:00:15 2008 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 16:00:15 -0700 Subject: 68000 ASM In-Reply-To: <950602.63067.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <950602.63067.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: From: Andrew Burton Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 3:27 PM > I am writing a little 68000 ASM code so I can add a few of my own > commands to AMOS Basic. Whilst searching online I found this > great page: > http://www.virtualdub.org/blog/pivot/entry.php?id=84 > It mentions a "green-covered" issue of Byte with programming tips > for the 68000 (eg. moveq #0 is faster than clr.l 0!). Does anyone > have this issue and can I have a copy of it? Or at the very > least, the issue number so I can hunt it down, please? The original article is available at http://linux.cis.monroeccc.edu/~paulrsm/doc/trick68k.htm I have the issue in question (September, 1986, according to a quick search using Google), but since it's packed in a box on the back wall of a full 10x15 storage locker I'm not going to go look at the cover just to see if it's green. Rich Alderson RichA at vulcan.com Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project (206) 342-2239 Vulcan, Inc., 505 5th Avenue S, Seattle, WA 98104 (206) 465-2916 cell From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 13 18:07:40 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 16:07:40 -0700 Subject: 68000 ASM In-Reply-To: <950602.63067.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <950602.63067.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48A306CC.5398.1A13A75@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Aug 2008 at 22:26, Andrew Burton wrote: > It mentions a "green-covered" issue of Byte with programming tips for > the 68000 (eg. moveq #0 is faster than clr.l 0!). Does anyone have > this issue and can I have a copy of it? Or at the very least, the > issue number so I can hunt it down, please? It's the September 1986 issue. (My copy is buried--I found the issue by perusing the "Index to Articles") Cheers, Chuck From legalize at xmission.com Wed Aug 13 18:13:07 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 17:13:07 -0600 Subject: 68000 ASM In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 13 Aug 2008 22:26:44 -0000. <950602.63067.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: In article <950602.63067.qm at web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com>, Andrew Burton writes: > It mentions a "green-covered" issue of Byte with programming tips for the 6= > 8000 (eg. moveq #0 is faster than clr.l 0!). Does anyone have this issue an= > d can I have a copy of it? Or at the very least, the issue number so I can = > hunt it down, please? Is it this one? G. Lindhorst and A. Anderson and D. Dahms Programming the 68040: Tricks and traps of software design for this high-powered processor Byte Magazine, 16(8), p. 121-122, 124, 126, 128, August 1991. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Wed Aug 13 18:14:03 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 17:14:03 -0600 Subject: 68000 ASM In-Reply-To: Your message of Wed, 13 Aug 2008 22:26:44 -0000. <950602.63067.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: That entry was found via -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Aug 13 18:20:23 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 17:20:23 -0600 Subject: 68000 ASM In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <48A36C37.8020706@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard wrote: > s it this one? > > G. Lindhorst and A. Anderson and D. Dahms > Programming the 68040: Tricks and traps of software design for this > high-powered processor > Byte Magazine, 16(8), p. 121-122, 124, 126, 128, August 1991. > *FAINTS* BYTE talked about a NON intel product in the 90's? From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Wed Aug 13 19:59:07 2008 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 17:59:07 -0700 Subject: Plus Hardcard 20 software? In-Reply-To: <48A15566.8050408@oldskool.org> References: <48A15566.8050408@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Aug 12, 2008 at 2:18 AM, Jim Leonard wrote: > Against better judgement, I attempted to low-level format a Plus Hardcard 20 > and completely borked it (with the wrong format, the controller won't init > and the thing is now a brick). Does anyone have the Plus Hardcard 20 > install diskette? Wasn't the controller on a Plus Hardcard 20 a relabeled Seagate (or maybe WD) MFM controller? Or am I thinking of another manufacturer's Hardcard clone? If so, the low level format entry point is probably offset 5 into the card's ROM address space (probably segment C800). If not DiskManager, SpeedStor, FormatAll or a utility like that may be able to figure out how to do a low level format. Eric > > The HardCard is shipped in a partitioned and formatted state, with a number > of files included on it. The directory of files is as follows: > > INSTALL EXE 47479 1-01-80 12:06a > HCD BAT 30 1-01-80 12:07a > HCD1 BAT 128 1-01-80 12:07a > HCD2 EXE 54769 1-01-80 12:07a > HCD3 DAT 13440 1-01-80 12:07a > HCD3 DIF 704 1-01-80 12:07a > HCD6 SCR 4224 1-01-80 12:07a > PREPARE BAT 235 1-01-80 12:08a > SHELL BAT 18 1-01-80 12:07a > LIGHT COM 145 1-01-80 12:07a > SOUND COM 145 1-01-80 12:07a > PATCHFMT EXE 12670 1-01-80 12:08a > INSTALL DAT 425 1-01-80 12:06a > > The original Plus install program creates a floppy diskette containing the > Plus files, as above, but also performs several other operations to make it > what they refer to as the "REINSTALL" diskette. This Reinstall diskette can > later be used for reformatting the HardCard. > > Anyone have this?? I am killing myself for bricking the card and would > really love to get it back. > -- > Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ > Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ > Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ > A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Aug 13 22:18:58 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 20:18:58 -0700 Subject: Plus Hardcard 20 software? In-Reply-To: References: <48A15566.8050408@oldskool.org>, Message-ID: <48A341B2.6653.2874C8C@cclist.sydex.com> On 13 Aug 2008 at 17:59, Eric J Korpela wrote: > If not DiskManager, SpeedStor, FormatAll or a utility like that may be > able to figure out how to do a low level format. The Plus Hardcard was a weird beast. I don't think that the option ROM had the low-level formatting utilities on it. Cheers, Chuck From gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at Thu Aug 14 00:09:15 2008 From: gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at (DI Gerhard Kreuzer) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 07:09:15 +0200 Subject: PCB Artwork for DEC card edge fingers Message-ID: <20080814070915.z8h934qggscsww8k@webmail.izone.at> Hi, I found a program, which converts a .brd file into Protel format. I can import Protel format into my Altium designer system. If you still interested, please send me your files. Thanks. By the way, I used EAGLE more than 20 years ago, but it doesnt meet any of the design creterias of commercial PCB development, so I drop it. Maybe the system is better now, but I can tell you, I dont need a day or a week to create a component, I just need 10 minutes to create components with 20 to 40 Pins, including different packages (Through hole and SMD). And I am not a?professional PCB designer, I only do two or three simple projects a year. Cheers Gerhard From derschjo at msu.edu Wed Aug 13 01:05:02 2008 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 23:05:02 -0700 Subject: PERQemu v0.2 and a Request for Software Message-ID: <48A2798E.8030606@msu.edu> Just in case anyone's interested, a new and significantly improved PERQemu v0.2 is available at: http://yahozna.dyndns.org/computers/perq/emulator/v0.2/ I would consider this a fairly usable release (v0.1 was very buggy). Improvements include: - A 25% or so speed increase (yay!) - A more or less complete and accurate Z80 simulation, which makes many, many more things work correctly. - Kriz Tablet support - now you can actually USE those graphical applications! - RS232 support (yes, now YOU can use a VT100 emulator running inside of a PERQ emulator to talk to your VAX!) - (Nearly) complete Floppy and Hard Disk support. Enough works to allow bringing up a completely fresh installation of POS on a new hard disk, from floppy. Next up on the list of things to do: Real RasterOp emulation, followed by 16K CPU support. Can't wait to run Accent on this thing... If any of you get a chance to try this out, I'd love to hear some feedback. If anyone out there has any PERQ1/1A compatible software that hasn't already been archived on Bitsavers (I know, it's unlikely...), please drop me a line. Much of the software that's been archived is for the PERQ2, which is incompatible in tiny (but annoying) ways. In particular, versions of POS G.x or any release of Accent that can run on the PERQ1A would be wonderful to have. (As an aside: Al Kossow - thank you so much for Bitsavers...) Additionally, if any of you have working PERQ1's and are willing to run it for a few hours to dump an image of your hard disk, let me know. It would be nice to have some other "real" hard disk images to work with. Thanks, Josh From julianskidmore at yahoo.com Wed Aug 13 04:01:16 2008 From: julianskidmore at yahoo.com (Julian Skidmore) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 02:01:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: More ETH Lilith goodies available Message-ID: <219606.2625.qm@web37102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi Dave, > I'd love to see something like this happen. Are the Lilith's > internals documented well enough to allow for something like this? They weren't until Jos Dreesen provided the ftp address: ftp://jdreesen.dyndns.org/ftp/lilith What there was effectively user documentation / research papers on the Lilith hardware / software and the Medos operating system and a PC version of the Lilith modula-2 compiler (with an MCode interpreter) in both source and object form. But now we have systems disks, source code, microcode and schematics. So we can emulate lilith at a variety of levels from, say, a simple Linux/X11 software version to a low-level TTL reproduction (thought you'd have to source AMD29xx bit-slice processor parts). Importantly for me the new information contains it's bitmap formats so my MCode interpreter in 'C' can support the missing graphics opcodes. Lilith is really an impressive European graphics workstation, which although not as revolutionary as the Alto was certainly radical for the time even though it predated the Macintosh by only 2 or 3 years. Amongst its many interesting facets: * The display was geared to PAL video standards, hence the 768x594, 50Hz interlaced format (of course this means it can be emulated on any SVGA or higher-resolution display). * MCode is well suited to microcode and cpu emulation making it easily ported to the pdp-11, and 8086. * They used a kind of 8086 segmentation scheme to get around 64kW limits. * It could run Modula-2 about 3x faster than an Alto could run Mesa. * It was a true programmer's machine running Modula-2 from the ground up. In that sense it was an experiment in using the latest GUI ideas for systems development (wheras Alto was primarily an experiment in easy-to-use personal computing for non-technical people). In the end it's the use of MCode which should allow a firmware-level emulation to run original systems disks on a simple Microcontroller and that kinda interests me: A lilith for only a few ?/?/$ :-) So, one day I'll have my own Lilith, and it will fit in my pocket ;-) -cheers from Julz @P From axelsson at acc.umu.se Wed Aug 13 06:25:28 2008 From: axelsson at acc.umu.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Axelsson?=) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 13:25:28 +0200 Subject: Paper Tape Reader In-Reply-To: <2645f9870808121248h7722d765n1894fc7d5e414de4@mail.gmail.com> References: <2645f9870808121248h7722d765n1894fc7d5e414de4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48A2C4A8.5070505@acc.umu.se> I have a COMEX 2010 paper tape reader that's for sale. It was mounted in a PDP8/e so I guess it could be used to read DEC tapes. I don't know if it is working and I have no way to test it. Postage is a bit high though, $100 for outside of Europe (40 euro within). Pictures at the bottom of It looks like it communicates via a standard serial port, there is a 1488 and a 1489 chip on the board. The transformer is a 220V but it looks like there is a center tap at the primary so it can be strapped for 110V too. No magic smoke when I connected it to power and the fuses are okay. No other life signs though and my multimeter is hidden somewhere I can't find it. Tape move mechanism feels good and turns easily. Price : postage + any reasonable bid. If I get a bid then I will consider it sold unless I get a new bid within a day. A reasonable bid is anything from $10 and up, ten dollars will buy me a burger meal when I post the package. :-) But you will probably find something cheaper and closer. /G?ran B M wrote: > Does anyone know of a source for a [relatively] cheap paper tape > reader suitable for reading standard DEC paper tapes? I have several > paper tapes from a PDP-11/20 that I would like to read, and of course, > share :-). Something like the OP-80 from Oliver Engineering would be > suitable. > > Thanks. > > --barrym > From axelsson at acc.umu.se Wed Aug 13 10:08:02 2008 From: axelsson at acc.umu.se (=?ISO-8859-1?Q?G=F6ran_Axelsson?=) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 17:08:02 +0200 Subject: Paper Tape Reader In-Reply-To: <48A2C4A8.5070505@acc.umu.se> References: <2645f9870808121248h7722d765n1894fc7d5e414de4@mail.gmail.com> <48A2C4A8.5070505@acc.umu.se> Message-ID: <48A2F8D2.4060300@acc.umu.se> Dohhhh!!! I never sent the link to the pictures, just scroll down to the end of this page. http://www.neab.net/pdp-8e/ Sorry for the extra noise. /G?ran G?ran Axelsson wrote: > I have a COMEX 2010 paper tape reader that's for sale. It was mounted > in a PDP8/e so I guess it could be used to read DEC tapes. > I don't know if it is working and I have no way to test it. > Postage is a bit high though, $100 for outside of Europe (40 euro > within). > Pictures at the bottom of > > It looks like it communicates via a standard serial port, there is a > 1488 and a 1489 chip on the board. The transformer is a 220V but it > looks like there is a center tap at the primary so it can be strapped > for 110V too. > No magic smoke when I connected it to power and the fuses are okay. No > other life signs though and my multimeter is hidden somewhere I can't > find it. > Tape move mechanism feels good and turns easily. > > Price : postage + any reasonable bid. If I get a bid then I will > consider it sold unless I get a new bid within a day. > A reasonable bid is anything from $10 and up, ten dollars will buy me > a burger meal when I post the package. :-) > > But you will probably find something cheaper and closer. > > /G?ran > > B M wrote: >> Does anyone know of a source for a [relatively] cheap paper tape >> reader suitable for reading standard DEC paper tapes? I have several >> paper tapes from a PDP-11/20 that I would like to read, and of course, >> share :-). Something like the OP-80 from Oliver Engineering would be >> suitable. >> >> Thanks. >> >> --barrym >> > From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Wed Aug 13 11:47:45 2008 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 11:47:45 -0500 Subject: FS: S-100 boards Message-ID: More stuff I'd forgotten I had. I was starting to build an 8080-based S-100 computer in the late 1970's, but lost interest when I bought an Apple IIe system for "only" $2000 (in 1982 dollars!) Anyway, there is: 1) Wameco CPU-1, mostly populated including the 8080A. Looks like the 8224 and 8228 are not there, though. http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=1zef37s&s=4 2) Ithaca Audio 8K 2102 board, fully socketed and populated. http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=29lefr8&s=4 3) Piiceon 8K Program Saver (2708 EPROM programmer). Complete except for the TL497CN switching regulator chip. Includes two 2708's. http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2r7x7jt&s=4 NOTE: The above three boards were never powered up or tested. No idea if they will actually work or not! 4) Solid State Music VB-1B Video Interface. This one was actually working with a different (homebrewed) 8080A board way back in 1979. I think it's 64 characters x 16 lines, monochrome of course. http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2qa6bde&s=4 Please make offer on one or all. Shipping will be from zip 65775 (US). Somewhere I have a Wameco "Little Mother Board" backplane too, but haven't gotten that far down into the junkpile yet. thanks Charles From rf.technologies at gmail.com Wed Aug 13 22:01:01 2008 From: rf.technologies at gmail.com (Bob Fay) Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 23:01:01 -0400 Subject: Software for Transtronics/Intronics EPROM programmer Message-ID: Something over a year ago you posted that you had a backup copy of the software for the Intronics Pocket Programmer. Is this perchance the original parallel printer port version? Due to a calamity of stupid human tricks when the Company I work for sold off one of its product lines the software for the programmer (which we still have) went with the sale and I suddenly have a need to burn some 2764 EPROMS to upgrade the firmware in a old system but I can't get approval for a new burner "because we'll never need it again" (famous last words) so if you still have the software I'd be interested. TIA, Bob Fay Bob Fay Mutualink Mail: rf.technologies at gmail.com From jeff.kaneko at juno.com Thu Aug 14 01:09:10 2008 From: jeff.kaneko at juno.com (jeff.kaneko at juno.com) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 06:09:10 GMT Subject: Terak 8510 system on eBay Message-ID: <20080813.230910.2541.0@webmail05.vgs.untd.com> Yep. price > $1,000 == investment grade AT this point I would usually remark about how rare machines didn't used to be about big bucks, but that horse died long, long ago. I'll return to my coffin now . . . . -- Richard wrote: Got it! Actually I got it for less than I expected -- $1275. Still, its the single most expensive item I've bought to date. However, I'd say this is going to be one of the most important items in my collection of graphics gear. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! ____________________________________________________________ Fast Computer Training. Click here. http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/Ioyw6i3mAUC2eSzWdxFOW3XKWiahm67Sp69wXVEiuRVuyqxEK4iaBo/ From coredump at gifford.co.uk Thu Aug 14 04:52:49 2008 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 10:52:49 +0100 Subject: 68000 ASM In-Reply-To: References: <950602.63067.qm@web23401.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48A40071.902@gifford.co.uk> Rich Alderson wrote: > From: Andrew Burton >>It mentions a "green-covered" issue of Byte with programming tips >>for the 68000 (eg. moveq #0 is faster than clr.l 0!). Does anyone >>have this issue and can I have a copy of it? Or at the very >>least, the issue number so I can hunt it down, please? > I have the issue in question (September, 1986, according to a > quick search using Google), but since it's packed in a box on the > back wall of a full 10x15 storage locker I'm not going to go look > at the cover just to see if it's green. It is indeed green, the colour of PCB solder resist. There's a photo of the 68000 CPU in the 64-pin DIL "aircraft carrier" package, too. The title is "The 68000 Family", and the Atari ST, Amiga and Macintosh are shown. The "68000 Trips and Traps" article is by Mike Morton, on page 163. Andrew, e-mail me off-list, and we'll arrange something! -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From mike at brickfieldspark.org Thu Aug 14 05:08:49 2008 From: mike at brickfieldspark.org (Mike Hatch) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 11:08:49 +0100 Subject: [personal] Re: Re: Paper Tape Reader References: <2645f9870808121248h7722d765n1894fc7d5e414de4@mail.gmail.com><48A2C4A8.5070505@acc.umu.se><001501c8fd5d$455d56f0$961ca8c0@mss.local> <1e1fc3e90808131121y98012e7h85fb3a5571a7c096@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <003301c8fdf5$bf6ee5b0$961ca8c0@mss.local> Yup, thats the one ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glen Slick" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 7:21 PM Subject: [personal] Re: Re: Paper Tape Reader > On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 8:57 AM, Mike Hatch > wrote: >> There is a design one kicking around on Epay somewhere that hooks up to a >> parallel port (I believe) but no mechanics. Seller claims you can pull >> tape >> through with no drop outs. Sorry cant find the link at the moment but >> will >> have a hunt around for it. >> > > This one by "mikesdavis" ? > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150267933071 > > From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Aug 14 09:55:25 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 10:55:25 -0400 Subject: Upgrading early BIOS Message-ID: <01C8FDFC.66B3BB60@mandr71> Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 13:49:22 -0700 From: "Chuck Guzis" Subject: Re: Upgrading early BIOS On 13 Aug 2008 at 15:36, M H Stein wrote: >> AFAIK cable select has always been an option with Parallel ATA drives, >> although it was rarely used in pre-UDMA days; the cable was obviously >> different (40 conductors with standard connectors vs. 80 conductors and >> unique special connectors) and the order of the drives was usually reversed >> (i.e. the slave on the end of the cable). >Nope--I've got a couple of very early Conner and Maxtor drives (less >than 100 MB)--CS isn't an option on the jumpers. If you'd read more carefully, you'd have seen that I *did* say that "not all drives supported the CS option;" in fact, quite a few of the older drives did not. I was responding to the posted statement that CS "had not been invented" in the 486 days, when AFAIK, it was part of the early ATA specs (although rarely implemented in practice). > It's the motherboard that determines the cable type and mode from pin 34, > which is grounded at the mobo end in a UDMA cable, so if the mobo isn't > UDMA-aware I don't think the drives would be, and the cable wouldn't matter. > Also, not all drives supported CS. >Read the Wiki article you cited: >"Pin 34: >Pin 34 is connected to ground inside the blue connector of an 80 >conductor cable but not attached to any conductor of the cable. It is >attached normally on the gray and black connectors". >On UDMA-66 capable drives, it's the cable, not the mobo that dictates >speed. Put an ordinary 40 conductor cable on a UDMA-capable drive >and mobo, and the configuration won't take advantage of it. When the >changeover was in progress, we used to get support calls quite often >on the subject of UDMA cables and drives on non-UDMA mobos. Well, I never knew that just replacing the cable in my 386 and 486 systems would speed things up; live and learn. I always thought that if the mobo wasn't pin 34 aware and UDMA capable then the cable wouldn't have much effect on the transfer mode. AFAIK in order to use UDMA all three items have to be UDMA capable, the mobo, the cable and the drives, although I'd say that, assuming it's UDMA aware, the mobo controls the speed depending on what kind of cable and drives it sees. Semantics? You said that with a UDMA cable, any UDMA capable drive will operate in UDMA mode (presumably regardless of the mobo); how does a drive know what kind of cable is connected? I always assumed that only the mobo can tell from pin 34. BTW, a UDMA cable certainly works with non-UDMA drives and/or mobos, although you have to remember that it is also a CS cable, but I don't think it'll be any faster. >Similarly: >"With the 40-wire cable it was very common to implement cable select >by simply cutting the pin 28 wire between the two device connectors; >putting the slave device at the end of the cable, and the master on >the "middle" connector. This arrangement eventually was standardized >in later versions. If there is just one device on the cable, this >results in an unused "stub" of cable, which is undesirable for >physical convenience and electrical reasons. The stub causes signal >reflections, particularly at higher transfer rates." >Bottom line is that if you use a non-CS-capable (i.e. 40 conductor >"straight through") cable, it won't work. Depending on what the >mobo/controller end does with pin 28, you'll have either two masters >or two slaves on the same cable. Agreed; I took it for granted, but with our detour into UDMA the most important point to be made relevant to the OP is that Cable Select needs a special cable and with pre-UDMA drives & mobos you're probably better off using Master/Slave and a standard cable. >Cheers, >Chuck m From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 14 11:24:55 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 09:24:55 -0700 Subject: Upgrading early BIOS In-Reply-To: <01C8FDFC.66B3BB60@mandr71> References: <01C8FDFC.66B3BB60@mandr71> Message-ID: <48A3F9E7.2820.35E0F5@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Aug 2008 at 10:55, M H Stein wrote: > Well, I never knew that just replacing the cable in my 386 and 486 systems > would speed things up; live and learn. I always thought that if the mobo > wasn't pin 34 aware and UDMA capable then the cable wouldn't have much > effect on the transfer mode. AFAIK in order to use UDMA all three items > have to be UDMA capable, the mobo, the cable and the drives, although > I'd say that, assuming it's UDMA aware, the mobo controls the speed > depending on what kind of cable and drives it sees. Semantics? Partly, I suppose. I can speak only from (a pile of) experience. Using a UDMA cable can create some real problems with older systems. And some early supposedly-UDMA-capable systems can't handle the full transfer rate of UDMA-133. IDE's pretty much been a mess from Day One. For example, I've got an early IDE drive that flips the endian-sense on the word pair returned for the total number of sectors on the drive. It was not uncommon for drives from two different manufacturers not to work as master- slave on the same cable. At any rate, for the OP my advice stands. Use a 40-conductor cable and forget about cable select--jumper for master and slave. And cross your fingers and offer up a chicken or two to whatever deity is in charge of IDE operation. Cheers, Chuck From jos.mar at bluewin.ch Thu Aug 14 11:49:48 2008 From: jos.mar at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen / Marian Capel) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 18:49:48 +0200 Subject: More ETH Lilith goodies available In-Reply-To: <219606.2625.qm@web37102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <219606.2625.qm@web37102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <48A4622C.2050701@bluewin.ch> > But now we have systems disks, source code, microcode and schematics. > So we can emulate lilith at a variety of levels from, say, a simple > Linux/X11 software version My "simple" Linux/X11 version is still not running... to a low-level TTL reproduction (thought you'd > have to source AMD29xx bit-slice processor parts). The 2901's are simple. But the sheer size of such a task is daunting.. Around 500 IC's.... Importantly for me > the new information contains it's bitmap formats so my MCode interpreter > in 'C' can support the missing graphics opcodes. Is your C-code available somewhere ? > > Lilith is really an impressive European graphics workstation, which > although not as revolutionary as the Alto was certainly radical for the > time even though it predated the Macintosh by only 2 or 3 years. > Amongst its many interesting facets: Some more interesting facts : No hierarchical filesystem, dodgy & very noisy diskdrive, 4 big & loud fans, apple-II compatible floppy disk with a 9600 bd serial access , keytronics keyboard with those damned foampads , problematic 4116's ( 128 of them ), asynchroneous access to the memory by graphics hardware, instruction fetch unit and CPU etc. etc. ( but yes, it remains a very interesting piece of hardware ) > > In the end it's the use of MCode which should allow a firmware-level emulation to run original systems disks on a simple Microcontroller and that kinda interests me: A lilith for only a few ?/?/$ :-) > > So, one day I'll have my own Lilith, and it will fit in my pocket ;-) An FPGA based copy should certainly be feasible, the 64 bit wide memory access is not strictly required. Jos From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Aug 14 12:36:41 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 12:36:41 -0500 Subject: Upgrading early BIOS In-Reply-To: <48A3F9E7.2820.35E0F5@cclist.sydex.com> References: <01C8FDFC.66B3BB60@mandr71> <48A3F9E7.2820.35E0F5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <48A46D29.7080507@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Using a UDMA cable can create some real problems with older systems. Indeed - or newer ones... (I've got a DVD-RW drive here which randomly disappears from the bus when used with a UDMA cable) > IDE's pretty much been a mess from Day One. For example, I've got an > early IDE drive that flips the endian-sense on the word pair returned > for the total number of sectors on the drive. I had one of those, too - I think it was a Maxtor, but could be wrong (drive long since tossed). Circa 1994 I was writing an IDE driver for a fledgling OS, and it was amazing how many quirks there were out there with drives of that period. Funny how SCSI seemed to get a bad name for that kind of thing, yet IDE's reputation stood intact despite all the inconsistencies. > It was not uncommon > for drives from two different manufacturers not to work as master- > slave on the same cable. ... and yet sometimes such a pair would work the other way around. (and don't get me started on the manufacturers who used microscopic jumpers which had a habit of falling off at random moments... Quantum were bad for this, I recall) cheers Jules From dm561 at torfree.net Thu Aug 14 12:04:55 2008 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 13:04:55 -0400 Subject: Upgrading early BIOS Message-ID: <01C8FE15.D859EF00@MSE_D03> ---------Original Message(s): Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 09:24:55 -0700 From: "Chuck Guzis" Subject: Re: Upgrading early BIOS On 14 Aug 2008 at 10:55, M H Stein wrote: > Well, I never knew that just replacing the cable in my 386 and 486 systems > would speed things up; live and learn. I always thought that if the mobo > wasn't pin 34 aware and UDMA capable then the cable wouldn't have much > effect on the transfer mode. AFAIK in order to use UDMA all three items > have to be UDMA capable, the mobo, the cable and the drives, although > I'd say that, assuming it's UDMA aware, the mobo controls the speed > depending on what kind of cable and drives it sees. Semantics? Partly, I suppose. I can speak only from (a pile of) experience. Using a UDMA cable can create some real problems with older systems. And some early supposedly-UDMA-capable systems can't handle the full transfer rate of UDMA-133. IDE's pretty much been a mess from Day One. For example, I've got an early IDE drive that flips the endian-sense on the word pair returned for the total number of sectors on the drive. It was not uncommon for drives from two different manufacturers not to work as master- slave on the same cable. At any rate, for the OP my advice stands. Use a 40-conductor cable and forget about cable select--jumper for master and slave. And cross your fingers and offer up a chicken or two to whatever deity is in charge of IDE operation. Cheers, Chuck ----------Reply: Ah, now those 3 paragraphs I agree with 100% (although I'm not sure that IDE deities care for chicken); anything else was surely just semantics ;-) m From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 14 13:08:23 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 11:08:23 -0700 Subject: Upgrading early BIOS In-Reply-To: <48A46D29.7080507@gmail.com> References: <01C8FDFC.66B3BB60@mandr71>, <48A3F9E7.2820.35E0F5@cclist.sydex.com>, <48A46D29.7080507@gmail.com> Message-ID: <48A41227.30782.949C3C@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Aug 2008 at 12:36, Jules Richardson wrote: > Funny how SCSI seemed to get a bad name for that kind of thing, yet > IDE's reputation stood intact despite all the inconsistencies. One of the answers that I wanted to convey to the OP was "If you want to (fairly) painlessly increase hard disk storage on an older system, get a SCSI controller and drive." But ISA SCSI controllers are getting harder to find, so that's probably a no-go. IDE is cheap in comparison to SCSI, so that was probably one very good reason why it found wide adoption. If disks were bad, tapes were far worse. There was all manner of mutually-incompatible cheap tape backup out there. We insisted as SCSI being the only tape interface that we would support--there was an ANSI-defined common command set and most of the later units were read-after-write verification. I wonder how many of those old DC2000 carts written on floppytape drives are still readable? And who can still read their Datasonix Pereos tapes? (I've got some Irwin- recorded DC1000s that I really should check for readability one of these days). For us, 4mm DAT was most popular based on media cost, followed closely by Exabyte 8mm. DLT was third, mostly because of very high media cost. Bernoulli and other removable media drives were also very popular. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 14 13:16:10 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 11:16:10 -0700 Subject: Upgrading early BIOS In-Reply-To: <48A46D29.7080507@gmail.com> References: <01C8FDFC.66B3BB60@mandr71>, <48A3F9E7.2820.35E0F5@cclist.sydex.com>, <48A46D29.7080507@gmail.com> Message-ID: <48A413FA.1842.9BBB49@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Aug 2008 at 12:36, Jules Richardson wrote: > I had one of those, too - I think it was a Maxtor, but could be wrong (drive > long since tossed). I just checked some old code. It was indeed Maxtor: // DetermineGeometry - Get a solid reading on drive geometry. // ---------------------------------------------------------- // // We compute logical CHS if we're in LBA mode and we also // work out the problem with some Maxtor drives that have the // LBA capacity words swapped! // Cheers, Chuck From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Aug 14 13:37:03 2008 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 13:37:03 -0500 Subject: Old-ish Graphic Apps In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20080814130154.05cf3c30@mail.threedee.com> At 02:03 PM 8/13/2008, Richard wrote: > John Honniball writes: > >> I used to write presentation graphics software for the London >> Software Studio, back in 1986-88. Harvard Graphics was out big >> competitor at the time -- what happened to it? > >It appears to still be around Well, sort of. As the About page says, "In 2001, Serif Incorporated acquired the exclusive marketing rights to all Harvard Graphics products." SPC tanked in the mid 90s. Although I consulted there in '90-92 in the Madison and San Jose offices after helping to create the illustration product that was sold to SPC and eventually became Harvard Draw and then Harvard F/X (and as still available in Serif's Harvard Graphics 98 product), and helped with the conversion filters for Harvard Graphics for Windows, I don't remember much of their end story. Hmm, here's a clue: http://news.zdnet.co.uk/software/0,1000000121,2064443,00.htm Looks like there's a recent recollection in the IEEE Annals: http://csdl2.computer.org/persagen/DLAbsToc.jsp?resourcePath=/dl/mags/an/&toc=comp/mags/an/2008/02/man02toc.xml&DOI=10.1109/MAHC.2008.31 And some at the Computer History Museum: http://www.computerhistory.org/corphist/view.php?s=events&id=1293 And there's a web for alumni: http://home.ix.netcom.com/~jeff/ - John From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 14 13:50:43 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 19:50:43 +0100 (BST) Subject: Terak 8510 system on eBay In-Reply-To: from "Richard" at Aug 13, 8 02:49:40 pm Message-ID: > > > Got it! Actually I got it for less than I expected -- $1275. Still, Congratulations! Alas, though, that appears to be one machine I am unlikely to ever own :-(. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Aug 14 13:59:29 2008 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 19:59:29 +0100 (BST) Subject: Terak 8510 system on eBay In-Reply-To: <48A35DFB.6030600@bitsavers.org> from "Al Kossow" at Aug 13, 8 03:19:39 pm Message-ID: > If it ends up you're missing boards, I have a CPU, but > no monitor or keyboard, and at this point it seems about > as likely to finding a kb/monitor for my PERQ. Which PERQ do you have? The PERQ 1 keyboard is an 8 bit parallel interface with a strobe signal. The coding is basically ASCII, but the cotnrol key sets the MSB (and leaves the other bits unchanged). I can get the exact details. The DDS (diagnostic display) is a simple up-counter, cleared by the reset button and incremented by a signal from the PERQ (it's actually the same signal that clears the arithmetic stack pointer, not that you need to know that). The PERQ 2 keyboard is serial, TTL level, and 300 baud. IIRC, the character codes are the same as on a PERQ 1. It plugs into the monitor, but there's no eleectronics for the keyboard (or tablet) in the monitor, just conenctions between DIN sockets and the DA15 to the PERQ. It's possible to use a computer with an RS232 port to emulate a PERQ2 keyboard, all you need is a 1489 chip as a level shifter (which can be powered off the PERQ's keyboard port). The monitor is TTL levels, separate syncs (so a total of 3 signals). Scan rates are something like 64kHz horizotal, 60Hz vertical. Whether you need a poertait or landscape monitor depends on the memory board you have (!), it's possible to convert some between one and the other (in particular, going form a landscape board to a portrait one), but it's probalby not soemthing you want to try before you've got the machine working. In general, PERQ 1/1a machines used a VMI portrait monitor, 2T1s used a KME portrait monitor, 2T2s and 2T4s normally used a Moniterm landscape monitor, but there's rumoured to be a PERQ Systems portait monitor for those too. Be warned that the Moniterm landscape monitor used on the PERQ 2T2 and 2T4 is known for developing problems iwth the partially potted EHT PSU module, resulting in a dim or no image. So if you find one, it may not work... If you want to try adapting something else, let me know, and I'll dig out any useful details. -tony From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Thu Aug 14 14:12:35 2008 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 14:12:35 -0500 Subject: Upgrading early BIOS In-Reply-To: <48A41227.30782.949C3C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <01C8FDFC.66B3BB60@mandr71>, <48A3F9E7.2820.35E0F5@cclist.sydex.com>, <48A46D29.7080507@gmail.com> <48A41227.30782.949C3C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <48A483A3.8020703@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 14 Aug 2008 at 12:36, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> Funny how SCSI seemed to get a bad name for that kind of thing, yet >> IDE's reputation stood intact despite all the inconsistencies. > > One of the answers that I wanted to convey to the OP was "If you want > to (fairly) painlessly increase hard disk storage on an older system, > get a SCSI controller and drive." But ISA SCSI controllers are > getting harder to find, so that's probably a no-go. > > IDE is cheap in comparison to SCSI, so that was probably one very > good reason why it found wide adoption. For sure - but SCSI seemed to have a reputation for being picky about cabling, host adapter settings, device ordering etc. - all the exact same things which have plagued IDE over the years. Given that IDE was more accessible due to it being cheaper technology, I'm surprised that it too didn't gain a reputation for requiring goat sacrifices and the like that SCSI did. I suppose cost wins out over common sense at times... > If disks were bad, tapes were far worse. There was all manner of > mutually-incompatible cheap tape backup out there. We insisted as > SCSI being the only tape interface that we would support--there was > an ANSI-defined common command set and most of the later units were > read-after-write verification. Yep - there was an awful lot of proprietary stuff out there. Personally I'm a DLT fan - like you say, it's expensive, but it's worth it for the reliability. I used to really like DAT (mainly for compactness) until I started seeing tape and drive reliability problems all over the place. cheers Jules From arcarlini at iee.org Thu Aug 14 14:42:26 2008 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 20:42:26 +0100 Subject: Upgrading early BIOS In-Reply-To: <48A483A3.8020703@gmail.com> Message-ID: Jules Richardson wrote: > For sure - but SCSI seemed to have a reputation for being picky about > cabling, host adapter settings, device ordering etc. - all the exact > same things which have plagued IDE over the years. Given that IDE was > more accessible due to it being cheaper technology, I'm surprised > that it too didn't gain a reputation for requiring goat sacrifices > and the like that SCSI did. I suppose cost wins out over common sense > at times... I got the impression that SCSI was used (in those days) in higher end systems. If you stuck with one vendor, you probably only played with well tested configs but if you tried to save money because "it's all SCSI, it must all play together" then you could run into issues. I know one of the reasons that DEC was late to the SCSI game was that they felt it didn't meet their reliablity requirements. If you used IDE in the PC space you would almost certainly be fine unless you shoved two disks on one cable - and I guess that most people (and corporations) didn't do that. These days you would expect everything to work everywhere. Antonio From james at jdfogg.com Thu Aug 14 15:00:20 2008 From: james at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 16:00:20 -0400 Subject: Xerox 820-II In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200808141600.21046.james@jdfogg.com> On Thursday 14 August 2008 01:29:32 pm Steven Hirsch wrote: > Does anyone in the northeast have a working Xerox 820-II system they'd > like to part with? I have a line on one out West, but the shipping is > going to be murderous. > > Steve Just a guess here, this wouldn't happen to be for running a micrographics machine, would it? A TDC Docuscan? From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Thu Aug 14 15:06:04 2008 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 16:06:04 -0400 Subject: Upgrading early BIOS References: <01C8FDFC.66B3BB60@mandr71> <48A3F9E7.2820.35E0F5@cclist.sydex.com> <48A46D29.7080507@gmail.com> <48A41227.30782.949C3C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <18596.36908.588399.311601@gargle.gargle.HOWL> >>>>> "Chuck" == Chuck Guzis writes: Chuck> On 14 Aug 2008 at 12:36, Jules Richardson wrote: >> Funny how SCSI seemed to get a bad name for that kind of thing, >> yet IDE's reputation stood intact despite all the inconsistencies. Chuck> ... Chuck> If disks were bad, tapes were far worse. There was all manner Chuck> of mutually-incompatible cheap tape backup out there. We Chuck> insisted as SCSI being the only tape interface that we would Chuck> support--there was an ANSI-defined common command set and most Chuck> of the later units were read-after-write verification. I Chuck> wonder how many of those old DC2000 carts written on Chuck> floppytape drives are still readable? And who can still read Chuck> their Datasonix Pereos tapes? (I've got some Irwin- recorded Chuck> DC1000s that I really should check for readability one of Chuck> these days). Sure, but SCSI didn't necessarily cure these issues. I still have a 4mm DAT drive from Colorado Memories (or some name like that -- acquired by HP years ago). If I remember right it comes with a SCSI controller, and it works with that controller -- but not with any other SCSI controller. And it requires proprietary software that was promptly discontinued by HP. I can still use that drive but only because I still have the Win95 system that can support the software, and the floppies it came on. Even the mainframe world isn't that painful -- at least not where 1/2 inch tapes are concerned. 7 track is more difficult, and I wouldn't want to imagine the pain involved in reading 1 inch 14 track tapes (CDC early 1960s) never mind even more ancient stuff like Uniservo tapes... paul From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 14 15:11:27 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 13:11:27 -0700 Subject: Upgrading early BIOS In-Reply-To: References: <48A483A3.8020703@gmail.com>, Message-ID: <48A42EFF.23068.1054641@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Aug 2008 at 20:42, Antonio Carlini wrote: > I got the impression that SCSI was used (in those days) in higher > end systems. If you stuck with one vendor, you probably only played > with well tested configs but if you tried to save money because "it's > all SCSI, it must all play together" then you could run into issues. > I know one of the reasons that DEC was late to the SCSI game was that > they felt it didn't meet their reliablity requirements. Early SCSI was pretty awful, largely the province of users with Macs, but by the time that the Adaptec 1540 series hit the market, things had gotten a lot better. Drivers were always an issue (e.g., does anyone have a NetBSD driver for an Ultrastor 14N?). If you wanted a bunch of storage on a PC-type machine, SCSI was pretty much the only way to get it. 7 devices (or 56 if you could unit-address them) on a SCSI bus was pretty cool--particularly if you had an interest in RAID. I have a couple of Adaptec 3985 PCI cards that appear to the system as 3 2940 controllers. Intended for Netware RAID setups. I believe that SCSI was used extensively for external devices, where that was rare for IDE. External means confusion with cabling, termination, etc. The multiple SCSI electrical varieties (8-bit, wide, ultra-wide, ultra2-wide, differential, etc.) didn't help un- muddy the waters either. Cheers, Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Thu Aug 14 15:28:37 2008 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 21:28:37 +0100 Subject: Upgrading early BIOS In-Reply-To: <48A46D29.7080507@gmail.com> References: <01C8FDFC.66B3BB60@mandr71> <48A3F9E7.2820.35E0F5@cclist.sydex.com> <48A46D29.7080507@gmail.com> Message-ID: <48A49575.2020903@philpem.me.uk> Jules Richardson wrote: > (and don't get me started on the manufacturers who used microscopic > jumpers which had a habit of falling off at random moments... Quantum > were bad for this, I recall) Don't forget the good old Maxtor 7850AV... 2mm pitch jumpers on pin headers that were just slightly too short for the jumper caps. I lost the master-slave jumper from one of mine. Wire-wrap wire is a good replacement. Well, it hasn't fallen off yet... :) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Thu Aug 14 15:35:44 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 13:35:44 -0700 Subject: Upgrading early BIOS In-Reply-To: <18596.36908.588399.311601@gargle.gargle.HOWL> References: <01C8FDFC.66B3BB60@mandr71>, <18596.36908.588399.311601@gargle.gargle.HOWL> Message-ID: <48A434B0.22581.11B80C8@cclist.sydex.com> On 14 Aug 2008 at 16:06, Paul Koning wrote: > Sure, but SCSI didn't necessarily cure these issues. I still have a > 4mm DAT drive from Colorado Memories (or some name like that -- > acquired by HP years ago). If I remember right it comes with a SCSI > controller, and it works with that controller -- but not with any > other SCSI controller. And it requires proprietary software that was > promptly discontinued by HP. > > I can still use that drive but only because I still have the Win95 > system that can support the software, and the floppies it came on. I wonder which drive you have (T3000 maybe?). I've got at least one Colorado, several Archive and a few drives with the HP logo, all 4mm DAT and they all obey the standard command set and pretty much work on any mainline SCSI controller. In particular, the Archive is a magazine loader and obeys the SCSI command set for autoloader "robots". OTOH, the Colorado floppy tape drives were pretty awful. We tended to advise customers to stick with the more established controllers. Adaptec 154x, 2840, 294x. There was a lot of variability among controllers, but we found the common Adaptec models to be the most consistent in their support. The 2920 (really a rebranded Future Domain model) was less dependable. Cheers, Chuck From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Aug 14 15:37:41 2008 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 15:37:41 -0500 Subject: Upgrading early BIOS In-Reply-To: <48A49575.2020903@philpem.me.uk> References: <01C8FDFC.66B3BB60@mandr71> <48A3F9E7.2820.35E0F5@cclist.sydex.com> <48A46D29.7080507@gmail.com> <48A49575.2020903@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <48A49795.9070702@mdrconsult.com> Philip Pemberton wrote: > Jules Richardson wrote: >> (and don't get me started on the manufacturers who used microscopic >> jumpers which had a habit of falling off at random moments... Quantum >> were bad for this, I recall) > > Don't forget the good old Maxtor 7850AV... 2mm pitch jumpers on pin > headers that were just slightly too short for the jumper caps. > > I lost the master-slave jumper from one of mine. Wire-wrap wire is a > good replacement. Well, it hasn't fallen off yet... :) Oooh, SHINY! That puts 12 or 15 1GB and 2GB Seagates back in biz. Thanks! Doc From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Aug 14 18:05:09 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 18:05:09 -0500 Subject: Plus Hardcard 20 software? In-Reply-To: References: <48A15566.8050408@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <48A4BA25.8070306@oldskool.org> HP-FIX wrote: > Did you try SpeedStor ? > A dos utility for formatting HDD's with lot's of vendor info build in the > app, it's very usefll tool because it can lowlevel format and make the > partions and test controller and disc.... > I've a copy here and will make a copy if you like. Jerry Wright was able to help me out with the original HC software, but I would indeed like a copy if you can find it. I've always heard about it but never tried it. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Aug 14 18:05:28 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 18:05:28 -0500 Subject: Plus Hardcard 20 software? In-Reply-To: References: <48A15566.8050408@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <48A4BA38.6020101@oldskool.org> Eric J Korpela wrote: > If not DiskManager, SpeedStor, FormatAll or a utility like that may be > able to figure out how to do a low level format. That was precisely how I borked it in the first place :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Aug 14 18:09:02 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 18:09:02 -0500 Subject: Plus Hardcard 20 software? In-Reply-To: <48A341B2.6653.2874C8C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <48A15566.8050408@oldskool.org>, <48A341B2.6653.2874C8C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <48A4BB0E.8050509@oldskool.org> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > The Plus Hardcard was a weird beast. I don't think that the option > ROM had the low-level formatting utilities on it. Correct, it doesn't. It relied on the software to do the formatting. I was attempting to reformat it so that I could get more speed out of it (interleave is 5:1 on the disk but my 8088-2 clone runs at 9.54MHz and can do faster). I borked it trying to use HDPARM. Thankfully Jerry Wright was able to find the original diskette and I have restored the drive to service! Awesome! I was attempting to use another hardcard, a "Karddrive 20" with an "Octagon Drive" (it looks like an MFM drive in the shape of an oblong octagon) and the first time I tried to use it, every other character in the ROM was goofy. The second time I tried, it was perfect and I could read the drive's contents (but regrettably did not back them up). The third time, the ROM read all 00's and the drive was useless. (This was all in the course of 10 minutes!) Can I assume that the EEPROM has faded for good? -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Aug 14 19:25:56 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 17:25:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Plus Hardcard 20 software? In-Reply-To: <48A4BB0E.8050509@oldskool.org> References: <48A15566.8050408@oldskool.org>, <48A341B2.6653.2874C8C@cclist.sydex.com> <48A4BB0E.8050509@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Aug 2008, Jim Leonard wrote: > I was attempting to reformat it so that I could get more speed out of it > (interleave is 5:1 on the disk but my 8088-2 clone runs at 9.54MHz and can do > faster). I borked it trying to use HDPARM. Thankfully Jerry Wright was able > to find the original diskette and I have restored the drive to service! > Awesome! > Jim, the next time you need to adjust the interleave on a drive, use SpinRite. It does transfer rate testing and will come up with the best interleave for your configuration. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Aug 14 19:38:59 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 18:38:59 -0600 Subject: Plus Hardcard 20 software? In-Reply-To: References: <48A15566.8050408@oldskool.org>, <48A341B2.6653.2874C8C@cclist.sydex.com> <48A4BB0E.8050509@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <48A4D023.1020503@jetnet.ab.ca> Gene Buckle wrote: > > Jim, the next time you need to adjust the interleave on a drive, use > SpinRite. It does transfer rate testing and will come up with the best > interleave for your configuration. > Does not SpinRite have a option to also reformat tracks with your data on it? > g. > From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Aug 14 19:47:03 2008 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 19:47:03 -0500 Subject: Terak 8510 system on eBay In-Reply-To: <20080813.230910.2541.0@webmail05.vgs.untd.com> References: <20080813.230910.2541.0@webmail05.vgs.untd.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20080814194452.078dbde0@mail.threedee.com> At 01:09 AM 8/14/2008, jeff.kaneko at juno.com wrote: >Yep. price > $1,000 == investment grade > >AT this point I would usually remark about how >rare machines didn't used to be about big bucks, >but that horse died long, long ago. $1200+? Crazy. You could've talked me out of one for a tenth of that, plus shipping, and I would've guaranteed that it wasn't an empty case (unlike the eBay seller, who has probably wet himself three times by now, searching the warehouse for more Teraks.) I didn't pay more than $25 for any of mine. Maybe more like $5-$10. - John From lynchaj at yahoo.com Thu Aug 14 20:08:49 2008 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 21:08:49 -0400 Subject: Z80 CP/M home brew computer project PCBs available Message-ID: Hi! I am continuing work on the N8VEM project. So far the SBC phase appears to be a success. There are many successful builders. The next phase has started. I just received an order of ECB backplane PCBs. I am assembling my own ECB backplane using standard off-the-shelf-parts. The ECB backplane can be used with the N8VEM SBC for IO expansion. It is intended for the "heavy" IO devices like Disk controllers and video boards. I am presently working on an ECB bus monitor to assist in the development of builder developed ECB peripherals. However, the ECB bus monitor will probably not be available for several weeks. After the ECB bus monitor project, I will continue on with the N8VEM Disk IO peripheral. It will have an IDE and NEC765 based FDC. All hardware and software information is freely available and I will help you the best I can to build your system. Obviously, most builders are highly skilled individuals who choose to highly customize their systems and don't need any of my help. Builders are encouraged to share their experiences on the N8VEM forums to help others. This has been quite successful in identifying and resolving various bugs. If you are interested in either the N8VEM SBC or ECB backplane PCBs to build your own home brew Z80 CP/M computer, please contact me offline. The SBC and the ECB backplane PCBs are available for low cost ($20 each plus shipping). Thank you in advance. Have a nice day! Andrew Lynch PS, you can get additional information here: http://groups.google.com/group/n8vem From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Aug 14 20:19:03 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 21:19:03 -0400 Subject: Plus Hardcard 20 software? In-Reply-To: <48A4D023.1020503@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <48A15566.8050408@oldskool.org>, <48A341B2.6653.2874C8C@cclist.sydex.com> <48A4BB0E.8050509@oldskool.org> <48A4D023.1020503@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <7C7F7DFF-92EB-4829-97C3-088DC9DA23E2@neurotica.com> On Aug 14, 2008, at 8:38 PM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: >> Jim, the next time you need to adjust the interleave on a drive, >> use SpinRite. It does transfer rate testing and will come up with >> the best >> interleave for your configuration. >> > Does not SpinRite have a option to also reformat tracks with your > data on it? SpinRite can be told to read a track, format it (optionally changing the interleave, and write the data back down. It was in my standard "fix a PC" box of tricks 20 years ago. It always worked very well. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Aug 14 20:41:54 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 20:41:54 -0500 Subject: Where to find memory ICs? In-Reply-To: <20080812125157.J58638@shell.lmi.net> References: <200808080620.m786KSv8054131@dewey.classiccmp.org> <48A1233F.9030909@oldskool.org> <20080812125157.J58638@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <48A4DEE2.8080506@oldskool.org> Fred Cisin wrote: > Surely, the cheapest source of old memory ICs is removing them from old > memory boards. A J-RAM/J-Laser or Intel AboveBoard can yield a lot of > chips. It is an AboveBoard I am trying to *populate* with said chips... -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Aug 14 20:43:51 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 20:43:51 -0500 Subject: Plus Hardcard 20 software? In-Reply-To: References: <48A15566.8050408@oldskool.org>, <48A341B2.6653.2874C8C@cclist.sydex.com> <48A4BB0E.8050509@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <48A4DF57.9030906@oldskool.org> Gene Buckle wrote: > On Thu, 14 Aug 2008, Jim Leonard wrote: >> I was attempting to reformat it so that I could get more speed out of >> it (interleave is 5:1 on the disk but my 8088-2 clone runs at 9.54MHz >> and can do faster). I borked it trying to use HDPARM. Thankfully >> Jerry Wright was able to find the original diskette and I have >> restored the drive to service! Awesome! >> > > Jim, the next time you need to adjust the interleave on a drive, use > SpinRite. It does transfer rate testing and will come up with the best > interleave for your configuration. Spinrite has been put into doubt over the last decade for me due to many factors. That notwithstanding, I did attempt it and Spinrite says that the controller is translating and that it won't touch it. The truth is that the on-board BIOS clears the screen and displays a message essentially saying "your low-level format attempt was stopped so that the existing bad sector mapping table could be preserved, press ctrl-alt-delete" (although powering the system off is actually what is required to continue). So that's the real reason SpinRite won't touch it. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From legalize at xmission.com Thu Aug 14 20:47:09 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 19:47:09 -0600 Subject: Terak 8510 system on eBay In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 14 Aug 2008 19:47:03 -0500. <6.2.3.4.2.20080814194452.078dbde0@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: In article <6.2.3.4.2.20080814194452.078dbde0 at mail.threedee.com>, John Foust writes: > At 01:09 AM 8/14/2008, jeff.kaneko at juno.com wrote: > > >Yep. price > $1,000 == investment grade > > > >AT this point I would usually remark about how > >rare machines didn't used to be about big bucks, > >but that horse died long, long ago. > > $1200+? Crazy. You could've talked me out of one for a tenth of that, plus > shipping, and I would've guaranteed that it wasn't an empty case [...] I *did* ask you if you would sell one of your "half dozen". You didn't reply. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Aug 14 20:49:09 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 19:49:09 -0600 Subject: Where to find memory ICs? In-Reply-To: <48A4DEE2.8080506@oldskool.org> References: <200808080620.m786KSv8054131@dewey.classiccmp.org> <48A1233F.9030909@oldskool.org> <20080812125157.J58638@shell.lmi.net> <48A4DEE2.8080506@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <48A4E095.1020701@jetnet.ab.ca> Jim Leonard wrote: > Fred Cisin wrote: >> Surely, the cheapest source of old memory ICs is removing them from old >> memory boards. A J-RAM/J-Laser or Intel AboveBoard can yield a lot of >> chips. > > It is an AboveBoard I am trying to *populate* with said chips... Maybe Fred has a few (full?) AboveBoards kicking around ... save you a lot of work. From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Aug 14 21:03:16 2008 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 21:03:16 -0500 Subject: Terak 8510 system on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20080814210112.05ca7950@mail.threedee.com> At 08:47 PM 8/14/2008, Richard wrote: >I *did* ask you if you would sell one of your "half dozen". You >didn't reply. Sorry, I was busy and I wanted to see how the auction turned out. :-) If you'd said "I'll give you $1200 for one" I would've jumped and perhaps even turned it into a family vacation to hand-deliver it. I'll sell my ultra-rare 10 meg Terak hard drive for $10,000. That's probably a third of the original price, not even counting inflation's deflation! - John From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Aug 14 21:06:27 2008 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 19:06:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Where to find memory ICs? In-Reply-To: <48A4E095.1020701@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200808080620.m786KSv8054131@dewey.classiccmp.org> <48A1233F.9030909@oldskool.org> <20080812125157.J58638@shell.lmi.net> <48A4DEE2.8080506@oldskool.org> <48A4E095.1020701@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <20080814190235.L75848@shell.lmi.net> > >> Surely, the cheapest source of old memory ICs is removing them from old > >> memory boards. A J-RAM/J-Laser or Intel AboveBoard can yield a lot of > >> chips. Jim Leonard wrote: > > It is an AboveBoard I am trying to *populate* with said chips... Sorry about that. When I needed to build some bookcases, a friend told me that the cheapest source of planks was to buy old bookcases and break them apart. On Thu, 14 Aug 2008, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > Maybe Fred has a few (full?) AboveBoards kicking around ... save you a > lot of work. Sorry, I don't think that I have any AboveBoards around. But, in the bottom of storage, I have a tote full of J-RAM/J-laser stuff. If I can make it to VCF this year, I should load up my van. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Aug 14 21:07:44 2008 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 22:07:44 -0400 Subject: Where to find memory ICs? In-Reply-To: <20080814190235.L75848@shell.lmi.net> References: <200808080620.m786KSv8054131@dewey.classiccmp.org> <48A1233F.9030909@oldskool.org> <20080812125157.J58638@shell.lmi.net> <48A4DEE2.8080506@oldskool.org> <48A4E095.1020701@jetnet.ab.ca> <20080814190235.L75848@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <50BBE144-B873-4289-AF7A-26F1A9603F63@neurotica.com> On Aug 14, 2008, at 10:06 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>>> Surely, the cheapest source of old memory ICs is removing them >>>> from old >>>> memory boards. A J-RAM/J-Laser or Intel AboveBoard can yield a >>>> lot of >>>> chips. > > Jim Leonard wrote: >>> It is an AboveBoard I am trying to *populate* with said chips... > > Sorry about that. When I needed to build some bookcases, a friend > told me > that the cheapest source of planks was to buy old bookcases and > break them > apart. soda -> keyboard -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Aug 14 21:21:41 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 19:21:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Plus Hardcard 20 software? In-Reply-To: <48A4D023.1020503@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <48A15566.8050408@oldskool.org>, <48A341B2.6653.2874C8C@cclist.sydex.com> <48A4BB0E.8050509@oldskool.org> <48A4D023.1020503@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Aug 2008, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > Gene Buckle wrote: >> >> Jim, the next time you need to adjust the interleave on a drive, use >> SpinRite. It does transfer rate testing and will come up with the best >> interleave for your configuration. >> > Does not SpinRite have a option to also reformat tracks with your data on > it? Yes it does. Does a great job. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From Hollandia at ccountry.net Thu Aug 14 21:21:57 2008 From: Hollandia at ccountry.net (Hollandia at ccountry.net) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 19:21:57 -0700 Subject: Upgrading early BIOS Message-ID: <200808150221.m7F2LuoZ007496@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> Chuck Guzis wrote: > >Given that this is a 486, I don't think that the BIOS is your >problem. I've used OPTI chipset 486s with two drives with no >problem. > >What kind of IDE cable are you using to hook up the second drive? If >it's an 80-conductor (UDMA) cable, then it's likely that the old IDE >controller can't see the drive. You need the 40-conductor cable. >You may also have to jumper the drive to restrict it to 8GB or less >(some drives can do this). > >FWIW, >Chuck > > The cable is a 40-pin ribbon cable (the old kind). From Hollandia at ccountry.net Thu Aug 14 21:21:59 2008 From: Hollandia at ccountry.net (Hollandia at ccountry.net) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 19:21:59 -0700 Subject: Upgrading early BIOS Message-ID: <200808150221.m7F2Luob007496@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> Michael Lee wrote: > >As for books, just an old copy of Upgrading and Repairing PCs is a great >reference in my opinion. > > Thanks, Michael. I'll look for a copy of it. From Hollandia at ccountry.net Thu Aug 14 21:22:01 2008 From: Hollandia at ccountry.net (Hollandia at ccountry.net) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 19:22:01 -0700 Subject: Upgrading early BIOS Message-ID: <200808150222.m7F2Luod007496@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> Fred Cisin wrote: > >Does the Packard Bell hardware support cable select? > I honestly don't know. I had thought they all did. >> Can someone suggest a good book that goes into this type of thing? > >Scott Mueller's Repairing and Upgrading PCs >prob'ly 3 or 4 editions before the current one. Try maybe ed 12 or 13 > > > I will look for a copy of it. Thanks. From Hollandia at ccountry.net Thu Aug 14 21:22:03 2008 From: Hollandia at ccountry.net (Hollandia at ccountry.net) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 19:22:03 -0700 Subject: Upgrading early BIOS Message-ID: <200808150222.m7F2Luof007496@mailproxy1.ccountry.net> Eric J Korpela wrote: >On Tue, Aug 12, 2008 at 6:16 AM, Al Hartman wrote: >> Why not try adding a PCI IDE adapter? It will have it's own BIOS that will >> over-ride the internal BIOS. > >With an Award 486 BIOS v1.01, this machine doesn't have PCI slots. In >fact I doubt that it would even have VESA Local Bus (VLB) slots. I >would make a wild assed guess that this is a reworked 386 motherboard >with 7 ISA slots, 3 of which are 16bit and one of which has a >proprietary 32bit ISA extension for use as memory expansion. > >How close did I come, Kurt? > >Eric > > I don't know exactly. This machine was bought used and I am only just starting to learn things about it. I wish I could be of more help. From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Aug 14 21:26:42 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 19:26:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Plus Hardcard 20 software? In-Reply-To: <48A4DF57.9030906@oldskool.org> References: <48A15566.8050408@oldskool.org>, <48A341B2.6653.2874C8C@cclist.sydex.com> <48A4BB0E.8050509@oldskool.org> <48A4DF57.9030906@oldskool.org> Message-ID: > The truth is that the on-board BIOS clears the screen and displays a message > essentially saying "your low-level format attempt was stopped so that the > existing bad sector mapping table could be preserved, press ctrl-alt-delete" > (although powering the system off is actually what is required to continue). > So that's the real reason SpinRite won't touch it. > That's insanely strange. I wonder what is so precious about their factory bad track table... g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Aug 14 21:40:50 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 21:40:50 -0500 Subject: Where to find memory ICs? In-Reply-To: <20080814190235.L75848@shell.lmi.net> References: <200808080620.m786KSv8054131@dewey.classiccmp.org> <48A1233F.9030909@oldskool.org> <20080812125157.J58638@shell.lmi.net> <48A4DEE2.8080506@oldskool.org> <48A4E095.1020701@jetnet.ab.ca> <20080814190235.L75848@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <48A4ECB2.1010405@oldskool.org> Fred Cisin wrote: > Sorry, I don't think that I have any AboveBoards around. But, in the > bottom of storage, I have a tote full of J-RAM/J-laser stuff. If I can > make it to VCF this year, I should load up my van. I appreciate the offer, but don't do it for my benefit; budgets are low this year and I won't be making VCF until VCF Midwest 2009. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Aug 14 21:41:51 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 21:41:51 -0500 Subject: Plus Hardcard 20 software? In-Reply-To: References: <48A15566.8050408@oldskool.org>, <48A341B2.6653.2874C8C@cclist.sydex.com> <48A4BB0E.8050509@oldskool.org> <48A4DF57.9030906@oldskool.org> Message-ID: <48A4ECEF.1050504@oldskool.org> Gene Buckle wrote: >> The truth is that the on-board BIOS clears the screen and displays a >> message essentially saying "your low-level format attempt was stopped >> so that the existing bad sector mapping table could be preserved, >> press ctrl-alt-delete" (although powering the system off is actually >> what is required to continue). So that's the real reason SpinRite >> won't touch it. >> > That's insanely strange. I wonder what is so precious about their > factory bad track table... Probably nothing at all. The BIOS DUMP lists the author of the code, maybe I should try to track him down and complain :-) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From trixter at oldskool.org Thu Aug 14 21:42:49 2008 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 21:42:49 -0500 Subject: Plus Hardcard 20 software? In-Reply-To: References: <48A15566.8050408@oldskool.org>, <48A341B2.6653.2874C8C@cclist.sydex.com> <48A4BB0E.8050509@oldskool.org> <48A4D023.1020503@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <48A4ED29.5000201@oldskool.org> Gene Buckle wrote: > On Thu, 14 Aug 2008, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: > >> Gene Buckle wrote: >>> >>> Jim, the next time you need to adjust the interleave on a drive, use >>> SpinRite. It does transfer rate testing and will come up with the best >>> interleave for your configuration. >>> >> Does not SpinRite have a option to also reformat tracks with your >> data on it? > Yes it does. Does a great job. And when it doesn't do a great job, I have found that Norton Utilities 6.0's CALIBRAT works well. (Spinrite does some odd things on a few controllers where there is a 10-second pause and head recalibration for every single low-level format of a track) -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Aug 14 21:48:57 2008 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 19:48:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Where to find memory ICs? In-Reply-To: <20080814190235.L75848@shell.lmi.net> from Fred Cisin at "Aug 14, 8 07:06:27 pm" Message-ID: <200808150248.m7F2mvZc009876@floodgap.com> > > > Surely, the cheapest source of old memory ICs is removing them from old > > > memory boards. A J-RAM/J-Laser or Intel AboveBoard can yield a lot of > > > chips. > > > > It is an AboveBoard I am trying to *populate* with said chips... > > Sorry about that. When I needed to build some bookcases, a friend told me > that the cheapest source of planks was to buy old bookcases and break them > apart. It took me almost a good half a minute to process that. I think I need a CPU upgrade. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- 1-GHz Pentium-III + Java + XSLT == 1-MHz 6502. -- Craig Bruce -------------- From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Aug 14 22:03:13 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 21:03:13 -0600 Subject: Where to find memory ICs? In-Reply-To: <200808150248.m7F2mvZc009876@floodgap.com> References: <200808150248.m7F2mvZc009876@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <48A4F1F1.2010008@jetnet.ab.ca> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>>> Surely, the cheapest source of old memory ICs is removing them from old >>>> memory boards. A J-RAM/J-Laser or Intel AboveBoard can yield a lot of >>>> chips. >>>> >>> It is an AboveBoard I am trying to *populate* with said chips... >>> >> Sorry about that. When I needed to build some bookcases, a friend told me >> that the cheapest source of planks was to buy old bookcases and break them >> apart. >> > > It took me almost a good half a minute to process that. I think I need a > CPU upgrade. > > What book cases *Do you buy*? All the ones I have seen are that cheep MFB stuff. From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Aug 14 22:02:34 2008 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (Gene Buckle) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 20:02:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Plus Hardcard 20 software? In-Reply-To: <48A4ECEF.1050504@oldskool.org> References: <48A15566.8050408@oldskool.org>, <48A341B2.6653.2874C8C@cclist.sydex.com> <48A4BB0E.8050509@oldskool.org> <48A4DF57.9030906@oldskool.org> <48A4ECEF.1050504@oldskool.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 14 Aug 2008, Jim Leonard wrote: > Gene Buckle wrote: >>> The truth is that the on-board BIOS clears the screen and displays a >>> message essentially saying "your low-level format attempt was stopped so >>> that the existing bad sector mapping table could be preserved, press >>> ctrl-alt-delete" (although powering the system off is actually what is >>> required to continue). So that's the real reason SpinRite won't touch it. >>> >> That's insanely strange. I wonder what is so precious about their factory >> bad track table... > > Probably nothing at all. The BIOS DUMP lists the author of the code, maybe I > should try to track him down and complain :-) > Now THAT would be cool. *laughs* You should do it. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. From legalize at xmission.com Thu Aug 14 22:27:33 2008 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 21:27:33 -0600 Subject: Terak 8510 system on eBay In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 14 Aug 2008 21:03:16 -0500. <6.2.3.4.2.20080814210112.05ca7950@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: In article <6.2.3.4.2.20080814210112.05ca7950 at mail.threedee.com>, John Foust writes: > At 08:47 PM 8/14/2008, Richard wrote: > >I *did* ask you if you would sell one of your "half dozen". You > >didn't reply. > > Sorry, I was busy and I wanted to see how the auction turned out. :-) ...which is why I dealt with the ebay seller and not you. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Aug 14 22:30:26 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 22:30:26 -0500 Subject: Terak 8510 system on eBay In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20080814194452.078dbde0@mail.threedee.com> References: <20080813.230910.2541.0@webmail05.vgs.untd.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20080814194452.078dbde0@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730808142030p2c7ea458ke0ebe7368bc9ca33@mail.gmail.com> On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 7:47 PM, John Foust wrote: > $1200+? Crazy. You could've talked me out of one for a tenth of that, plus > shipping, and I would've guaranteed that it wasn't an empty case (unlike > the eBay seller, who has probably wet himself three times by now, searching > the warehouse for more Teraks.) I didn't pay more than $25 for any of mine. > Maybe more like $5-$10. So...umm....they'll be heading to eBay then? From useddec at gmail.com Thu Aug 14 22:49:47 2008 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 22:49:47 -0500 Subject: WTB: DEC PC04 Paper Tape Reader/Punch In-Reply-To: <2C725119-415B-4DB2-B7C5-AADADCBED169@voysys.com> References: <2C725119-415B-4DB2-B7C5-AADADCBED169@voysys.com> Message-ID: <624966d60808142049j7da17fdbna2082d78ddff11ea@mail.gmail.com> I think the M840 is the PDP8 controller. I don't remember the Unibus part number, but I should have one. Paul On 8/12/08, Marden P. Marshall wrote: > > Does anyone have a DEC PC04 paper tape reader/punch that they would be > interested in letting go? I'm also looking for the matching PC8-E (M840) > UNIBUS controller card. > > Thanks, > > -Mardy > > From josecvalle at gmail.com Thu Aug 14 09:16:59 2008 From: josecvalle at gmail.com (Jose carlos Valle) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 11:16:59 -0300 Subject: [personal] Re: Re: Paper Tape Reader In-Reply-To: <003301c8fdf5$bf6ee5b0$961ca8c0@mss.local> References: <2645f9870808121248h7722d765n1894fc7d5e414de4@mail.gmail.com> <48A2C4A8.5070505@acc.umu.se> <001501c8fd5d$455d56f0$961ca8c0@mss.local> <1e1fc3e90808131121y98012e7h85fb3a5571a7c096@mail.gmail.com> <003301c8fdf5$bf6ee5b0$961ca8c0@mss.local> Message-ID: Hi, I am Jose Carlos Valle, I will be there en that event in San Jose, nexe week, if someone would like to talk about old stufss, museum, or some donation etc I will beat the The Tech Museum of Innovations. By the way, I need to get a hotel close there. for 2 people around 80,00 Any help is welcome. Jose Carlos Valle curator - Computer Museum Braszil 2008/8/14 Mike Hatch > Yup, thats the one > > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glen Slick" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 7:21 PM > Subject: [personal] Re: Re: Paper Tape Reader > > > > On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 8:57 AM, Mike Hatch >> wrote: >> >>> There is a design one kicking around on Epay somewhere that hooks up to a >>> parallel port (I believe) but no mechanics. Seller claims you can pull >>> tape >>> through with no drop outs. Sorry cant find the link at the moment but >>> will >>> have a hunt around for it. >>> >>> >> This one by "mikesdavis" ? >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150267933071 >> >> >> > > -- Jos? Carlos Valle ? Presidente curador Av Jandira, 257 - 6 andar s 64 - Moema.- CEP 04088-001 www.museudocomputador.com.br Blog do curador:--http://blogdocurador.museudocomputador.com.br Tel office: 011 2609-6959 - celular prov: 8794-6730 Tel skype 3013-3946 - "Tudo posso naquele que fortalece, Felipenses 4:13" From snhirsch at gmail.com Thu Aug 14 12:29:32 2008 From: snhirsch at gmail.com (Steven Hirsch) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 13:29:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Xerox 820-II Message-ID: Does anyone in the northeast have a working Xerox 820-II system they'd like to part with? I have a line on one out West, but the shipping is going to be murderous. Steve -- From josecvalle at gmail.com Thu Aug 14 12:54:08 2008 From: josecvalle at gmail.com (Jose carlos Valle) Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 14:54:08 -0300 Subject: More ETH Lilith goodies available In-Reply-To: <219606.2625.qm@web37102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <219606.2625.qm@web37102.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hello, I will be there at San jose , CA, at the N-Vision,next week someone will goes to there? I will visit the Intel Museum, Computer History Museum in Mont view etc. Any suggestion is welcome. -- Jos? Carlos Valle ? Presidente curador Av Jandira, 257 - 6 andar s 64 - Moema.- CEP 04088-001 www.museudocomputador.com.br Blog do curador:--http://blogdocurador.museudocomputador.com.br Tel office: 011 2609-6959 - celular prov: 8794-6730 Tel skype 3013-3946 - "Tudo posso naquele que fortalece, Felipenses 4:13" From gordonjcp at gjcp.net Fri Aug 15 02:20:47 2008 From: gordonjcp at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 08:20:47 +0100 Subject: QBus framebuffers, was Re: Terak 8510 system on eBay In-Reply-To: <48A2A9F9.9070103@e-bbes.com> References: <489FCEE7.5080908@crash.com> <51ea77730808102333s71d1a6a6mf878daa87ff6dfe9@mail.gmail.com> <489FE002.3040705@crash.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20080811110331.06ef9b80@mail.threedee.com> <1218530562.13789.1.camel@kusanagi> <48A2A9F9.9070103@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <48A52E4F.6010409@gjcp.net> e.stiebler wrote: > Gordon J. C. Pearce wrote: >> All this talk of Teraks reminds me, it's about time for my approximately >> semi-annual QBus framebuffer hunt. Is anyone keen to sell such a thing? > > > What exactly are you looking for ? > Well just to cover this reply and the couple of off-list emails I've had, I'm looking for *some sort* of framebuffer that I can fit to my PDP-11/73. Ideally it should be able to do a couple of greyscales (But 1-bit would be fine) or colour, and if it can spit out RS-170ish video that would be lovely. RGB I can probably do, *if* I can figure out where I put the rather nice little Japanese-spec 12" colour monitor I found... I've got loads of quad-height slots free. Now, I've been offered a VCB02 set, which I believe is from a MicroVAX. Will these work in a PDP11? Would I need to make any mods? Bear in mind that I'm most likely going to write the software from scratch. Gordon From ethan.dicks at usap.gov Fri Aug 15 02:50:00 2008 From: ethan.dicks at usap.gov (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 07:50:00 +0000 Subject: QBus framebuffers, was Re: Terak 8510 system on eBay In-Reply-To: <48A52E4F.6010409@gjcp.net> References: <489FCEE7.5080908@crash.com> <51ea77730808102333s71d1a6a6mf878daa87ff6dfe9@mail.gmail.com> <489FE002.3040705@crash.com> <6.2.3.4.2.20080811110331.06ef9b80@mail.threedee.com> <1218530562.13789.1.camel@kusanagi> <48A2A9F9.9070103@e-bbes.com> <48A52E4F.6010409@gjcp.net> Message-ID: <20080815075000.GA31642@usap.gov> On Fri, Aug 15, 2008 at 08:20:47AM +0100, Gordon JC Pearce wrote: > Well just to cover this reply and the couple of off-list emails I've > had, I'm looking for *some sort* of framebuffer that I can fit to my > PDP-11/73. Ideally it should be able to do a couple of greyscales (But > 1-bit would be fine) or colour, and if it can spit out RS-170ish video > that would be lovely. I worked with one c. 1988 that fits the bill, but I can't even remember the vendor now. Pertek, maybe? It was RGB, but did SOG, and we used it as a 512x512 16-shades-of-grey on a mono security monitor. The only thing odd about it was the tiny coax connectors for video out (my boss just soldered a BNC pigtail to the bottom of the board at the "Green" connector). > I've got loads of quad-height slots free. This was dual-height, and, IIRC, easy to talk to from MACRO-11 programs (i.e. - no driver). > Now, I've been offered a VCB02 set, which I believe is from a MicroVAX. > Will these work in a PDP11? Would I need to make any mods? Bear in > mind that I'm most likely going to write the software from scratch. That I don't know, but I would _suspect_ it should work, especially if you are willing to roll your own code. I don't think it did needed anything from the Qbus that a PDP-11 couldn't do. You could always check an existing VAX driver for code examples - dunno if any of the BSDs support it, but VMS and Ultrix should have both supported it. -ethan -- Ethan Dicks, A-333-S Current South Pole Weather at 15-Aug-2008 at 07:40 Z South Pole Station PSC 468 Box 400 Temp -63.2 F (-52.9 C) Windchill -111.2 F (-79.5 C) APO AP 96598 Wind 25.2 kts Grid 10 Barometer 669.1 mb (11042 ft) Ethan.Dicks at usap.gov http://penguincentral.com/penguincentral.html From andreww591 at gmail.com Fri Aug 15 04:11:24 2008 From: andreww591 at gmail.com (Andrew Warkentin) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 03:11:24 -0600 Subject: PERQemu v0.2 and a Request for Software In-Reply-To: <48A2798E.8030606@msu.edu> References: <48A2798E.8030606@msu.edu> Message-ID: <48A5483C.4040204@gmail.com> Josh Dersch wrote: > Just in case anyone's interested, a new and significantly improved > PERQemu v0.2 is available at: > > http://yahozna.dyndns.org/computers/perq/emulator/v0.2/ > > I would consider this a fairly usable release (v0.1 was very buggy). > Improvements include: > > - A 25% or so speed increase (yay!) > - A more or less complete and accurate Z80 simulation, which makes many, > many more things work correctly. > - Kriz Tablet support - now you can actually USE those graphical > applications! > - RS232 support (yes, now YOU can use a VT100 emulator running inside of > a PERQ emulator to talk to your VAX!) > - (Nearly) complete Floppy and Hard Disk support. Enough works to allow > bringing up a completely fresh installation > of POS on a new hard disk, from floppy. > > Next up on the list of things to do: Real RasterOp emulation, followed > by 16K CPU support. Can't wait to run Accent on this thing... > > If any of you get a chance to try this out, I'd love to hear some feedback. > > If anyone out there has any PERQ1/1A compatible software that hasn't > already been archived on Bitsavers (I know, it's unlikely...), please > drop me a line. Much of the software that's been archived is for the > PERQ2, which is incompatible in tiny (but annoying) ways. In > particular, versions of POS G.x or any release of Accent that can run on > the PERQ1A would be wonderful to have. > > (As an aside: Al Kossow - thank you so much for Bitsavers...) > > Additionally, if any of you have working PERQ1's and are willing to run > it for a few hours to dump an image of your hard disk, let me know. It > would be nice to have some other "real" hard disk images to work with. > > Thanks, > Josh I ran it under Mono (under OS X), and it works, but there are a few minor problems. The first is that it is hardcoded to use \ as the path separator, so it tries to open files in the current directory with names of the form \, instead of the actual files in the subdirectories (for instance, it tries to open ./Disks\hdImage.img as the hard disk image.). Fortunately, this is easy to work around with symlinks due to the fact that Unices allow any character in filenames. The second is that it is impossible to exit in any way other than suspending with ^Z and killing the process. From coredump at gifford.co.uk Fri Aug 15 05:03:54 2008 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 11:03:54 +0100 Subject: Where to find memory ICs? In-Reply-To: <20080814190235.L75848@shell.lmi.net> References: <200808080620.m786KSv8054131@dewey.classiccmp.org> <48A1233F.9030909@oldskool.org> <20080812125157.J58638@shell.lmi.net> <48A4DEE2.8080506@oldskool.org> <48A4E095.1020701@jetnet.ab.ca> <20080814190235.L75848@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <48A5548A.7000206@gifford.co.uk> Fred Cisin wrote: > Sorry, I don't think that I have any AboveBoards around. But, in the > bottom of storage, I have a tote full of J-RAM/J-laser stuff. The J-Laser was another thing we used when developing that business graphics/presentation package. Really impressive at the time, just for the size of the memory. And the direct video interface to the laser printer was soooo fast... -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Aug 15 09:15:51 2008 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 09:15:51 -0500 Subject: Bernoulli Box controller? In-Reply-To: <48A5266B.3030600@msu.edu> References: <48A5266B.3030600@msu.edu> Message-ID: <51ea77730808150715v1599c590n60ea9cbdef2ea3e0@mail.gmail.com> On Fri, Aug 15, 2008 at 1:47 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > I picked up a very old Iomega Bernoulli Box (labeled on the rear as "The > Bernoulli Box," on the front as "Iomega Cartridge Disk Subsystem"), model > CDS-PC/20. The chassis basically looks like a knockoff of the original IBM > PC, even down to the red on/off switch on the rear right. Got a few 10mb > cartridges with it, but no controller. > > Anyone have a PC controller for this thing they don't need? Any advice for > cleaning it out before I try to load any cartridges? Hey, I received one of these recently as well. Also no controller card. I'd be happy just to know the model# so I can hunt one down later on. From doc at mdrconsult.com Fri Aug 15 09:41:14 2008 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 09:41:14 -0500 Subject: Upgrading early BIOS In-Reply-To: <48A434B0.22581.11B80C8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <01C8FDFC.66B3BB60@mandr71>, <18596.36908.588399.311601@gargle.gargle.HOWL> <48A434B0.22581.11B80C8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <48A5958A.5050305@mdrconsult.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > I wonder which drive you have (T3000 maybe?). I've got at least one > Colorado, several Archive and a few drives with the HP logo, all 4mm > DAT and they all obey the standard command set and pretty much work > on any mainline SCSI controller. In particular, the Archive is a > magazine loader and obeys the SCSI command set for autoloader > "robots". There was an HP-branded ISA adapter, an Adaptec chip if I recall, that was sold with one of the ScanJet flatbed scanners. It was of course non-bootable, but the couple I've run into were also completely unreliable with storage devices. Doc Shipley From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Aug 15 10:24:24 2008 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 08:24:24 -0700 Subject: PERQemu v0.2 and a Request for Software Message-ID: <48A59FA8.30205@bitsavers.org> > Just in case anyone's interested, a new and significantly improved > PERQemu v0.2 is available Would you be willing to make the sources available at some point to help document the hardware, and make it possible to put it on something other than Windows? From dbetz at xlisper.com Fri Aug 15 12:31:38 2008 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 13:31:38 -0400 Subject: IBM 4702 Message-ID: <3E8E99AE-F238-45E8-AB41-347FDC487FC0@xlisper.com> Anyone know what an IBM 4702 is? I found one in the trash at my local dump. It's a cube shaped box with a couple of 5.25" floppy drives on the front. Would this be of interest to anyone? If so, I'll pick it up (free) but you'll have to come by and get it at my home in Bedford, NH. From brad at heeltoe.com Fri Aug 15 12:36:34 2008 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 13:36:34 -0400 Subject: free - two large 9 track tape units; boston area Message-ID: <27437.1218821794@mini> Hi I have two (2x) 9-track tape units I no longer need. These are rack mounted units, not currently in racks. One is brand new. I'm pretty sure both have pertec interfaces and could be driven from most any pertec interface. I believe both will read 800 bpi & 1600 tapes. Not sure if they will go beyond that. The are physically clean and in good shape. Anyone want them? If you do, these need to be picked up. They are way too heavy for shipping. ps: if someone take them *both* I will offer to throw in a 19" rack on wheels. it's clean and in good shape with a dec power module on the bottom. -brad Brad Parker Heeltoe Consulting +1-781-483-3101 http://www.heeltoe.com From bear at typewritten.org Fri Aug 15 12:36:37 2008 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 10:36:37 -0700 Subject: Bernoulli Box controller? In-Reply-To: <51ea77730808150715v1599c590n60ea9cbdef2ea3e0@mail.gmail.com> References: <48A5266B.3030600@msu.edu> <51ea77730808150715v1599c590n60ea9cbdef2ea3e0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <84CD8628-5E43-475F-B3A1-39BDC0E74C2F@typewritten.org> On Aug 15, 2008, at 7:15 AM, Jason T wrote: > Hey, I received one of these recently as well. Also no controller > card. I'd be happy just to know the model# so I can hunt one down > later on. PC2-50 (no ROM, not bootable) PC2B-50 (ROM, bootable) ok bear From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Aug 15 12:37:55 2008 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 12:37:55 -0500 Subject: IBM 4702 In-Reply-To: <3E8E99AE-F238-45E8-AB41-347FDC487FC0@xlisper.com> References: <3E8E99AE-F238-45E8-AB41-347FDC487FC0@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20080815123641.067cceb0@mail.threedee.com> At 12:31 PM 8/15/2008, David Betz wrote: >Anyone know what an IBM 4702 is? I found one in the trash at my local >dump. http://www.plippard.com/pgl/CodingChronology.aspx Sounds sufficiently weird to me. :-) "The IBM 4700 Finance Communication System (FCS) consisted of a programmatic controller and related peripherals, used primarily in finance industry retail branches. The graphic above was the best I could do at finding a photo of an IBM 4702. I think the IBM Corporation would like to forget about the 4700. In fact, the IBM 4700 product line may have been the most forgettable product the IBM Corporation ever made. For me, and due to its proprietary architecture, the IBM 4700 product line spelled profitability. Introduced in the same year as the IBM PC (1981), the 4700 FCS was the follow-on product to replace the IBM 3600 FCS. Unlike the IBM PC, the 4700 FCS was very much a proprietary hardware and software product. All programming for the IBM 4702 processor was conducted with an IBM mainframe based language called 4700 Finance Communication Language (FCL). 4700 FCL essentially used the IBM mainframe Assembler Language macro capability to generate 4700 FCL op codes, which in turn were downloaded to the IBM 4702 and interpreted by the 4700 microcode. If one has a creative imagination and compares 4700 FCL to today's modern world of programming, 4700 microcode interpretation of 4700 FCL op codes is similar in concept to the Microsoft .NET Common Language Runtime (CLR) and its interpretation of Microsoft Intermediate Language (IL) instruction codes." - John From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Fri Aug 15 12:38:54 2008 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 13:38:54 -0400 Subject: IBM 4702 In-Reply-To: <3E8E99AE-F238-45E8-AB41-347FDC487FC0@xlisper.com> Message-ID: <200808151741.m7FHf1V7066731@keith.ezwind.net> On Fri, 15 Aug 2008 13:31:38 -0400, David Betz wrote: >Anyone know what an IBM 4702 is? I found one in the trash at my local >dump. It's a cube shaped box with a couple of 5.25" floppy drives on >the front. Would this be of interest to anyone? If so, I'll pick it up >(free) but you'll have to come by and get it at my home in Bedford, NH. Here is a hint: "When B-Loop Attachment Feature is selected, the 9068 attaches to IBM 4702 Branch Automation Processor as either an IBM 4722 or IBM 4772 (model S01)." Bob From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 15 12:52:32 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 10:52:32 -0700 Subject: Bernoulli Box controller? In-Reply-To: <51ea77730808150715v1599c590n60ea9cbdef2ea3e0@mail.gmail.com> References: <48A5266B.3030600@msu.edu>, <51ea77730808150715v1599c590n60ea9cbdef2ea3e0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <48A55FF0.26037.5AC6E4E@cclist.sydex.com> On 15 Aug 2008 at 9:15, Jason T wrote: > Hey, I received one of these recently as well. Also no controller > card. I'd be happy just to know the model# so I can hunt one down > later on. Isn't the 20 MB Bernoulli Box a SCSI device? ISTR that you could plug the thing into a Mac. I've got a PC2B controller here (with male DC37 connector) that came with my BB dual 90 drive and it's a SCSI controller, albeit pertty primitive, for certain. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Aug 15 13:03:15 2008 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 11:03:15 -0700 Subject: IBM 4702 In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20080815123641.067cceb0@mail.threedee.com> References: <3E8E99AE-F238-45E8-AB41-347FDC487FC0@xlisper.com>, <6.2.3.4.2.20080815123641.067cceb0@mail.threedee.com> Message-ID: <48A56273.31769.5B63C0C@cclist.sydex.com> For a somewhat more complete picture, here's a presentation from an outfit whose goal was to do away with the 4700 and connect the peripherals to a PC: http://www.nci-inc.com/Migratn.pdf I get the impression that the 4702 was seen in banks and the like. Cheers, Chuck From RichA at vulcan.com Fri Aug 15 13:13:27 2008 From: RichA at vulcan.com (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 11:13:27 -0700 Subject: Bernoulli Box controller? In-Reply-To: <48A55FF0.26037.5AC6E4E@cclist.sydex.com> References: <48A5266B.3030600@msu.edu>, <51ea77730808150715v1599c590n60ea9cbdef2ea3e0@mail.gmail.com> <48A55FF0.26037.5AC6E4E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: From: Chuck Guzis Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 10:53 AM > On 15 Aug 2008 at 9:15, Jason T wrote: >> Hey, I received one of these recently as well. Also no >> controller card. I'd be happy just to know the model# so I >> can hunt one down later on. > Isn't the 20 MB Bernoulli Box a SCSI device? ISTR that you > could plug the thing into a Mac. I've got a PC2B controller > here (with male DC37 connector) that came with my BB dual 90 > drive and it's a SCSI controller, albeit pertty primitive, > for certain. The original Macintosh-compatible Bernoulli Box hooked to the external floppy interface, and was available in 10MB and 20MB. SCSI didn't come to the Mac until the SE, as I remember things. Rich Rich Alderson RichA at vulcan.com Server Engineer, PDPplanet Project (206) 342-2239 Vulcan, Inc., 505 5th Avenue S, Seattle, WA 98104 (206) 465-2916 cell From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Fri Aug 15 13:14:46 2008 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 19:14:46 +0100 Subject: IBM 6094-020 LPFK (Lighted Program Function Keyboard) Message-ID: <48A5C796.5030105@philpem.me.uk> Hi, I've just got my two LPFKs -- one of which is now sitting out on the bench. The stuff on the codeninja page about the LPFK protocol seems to be inaccurate; my LPFK is completely mute. I can set the switch on the back to Loopback, which makes the light for whatever keys I press light up, but in "live" mode nothing happens at all. I've got a scope probe on the TX output of the MAX232 (pin 14), which connects straight to the serial connector, but all I've got is a steady -10V (negative ten volts) level. The crystal is oscillating and the 8051 appears to be running code. If I ground the RXD line (serial break?) and then release it, the LPFK resets and does its startup dance. Still no output after this, though. I suspect it's expecting some form of init sequence. Does anyone have an LPFK, the PC connection kit and the relevant software to hand? A serial trace would be tremendously useful. Has anyone managed to get one of these things working? I did spot a thread in the archive started by Michael Brutman -- . Nothing after that until Paxton Hoag's LPFK bulk-order earlier this year though. Thanks, -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From james at jdfogg.com Fri Aug 15 13:22:47 2008 From: james at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 14:22:47 -0400 Subject: Xerox 820-II In-Reply-To: References: <200808141600.21046.james@jdfogg.com> Message-ID: <200808151422.47958.james@jdfogg.com> > > Just a guess here, this wouldn't happen to be for running a micrographics > > machine, would it? A TDC Docuscan? > > No. This would be for my vintage computer collection. I have a couple of > Corvus flat-cable drive interfaces for Xerox 820 and recently unearthed > the software as well. Now, if I can get a working 820 my "network of the > past" will gain another dimension. > > Never heard of either micrographics or TDC Docuscan. What are they? Sorry, the Docuscan was a high speed paper scanner based on the Documate chassis. Terminal Data Corp Documate models 1,2,3 & 4. They used Xerox model 820's, and later used PC's. They were very large automated (computer controlled) self feeding high speed microfiche cameras. They were also unique in that they could film in any of the micrographics formats, including roll films (microfilm). The cameras were a mechanical work of art, using servomotors to step the film in an X-Y fashion. punched metal encoder wheels told the camera what format to lay down on the film. The model 1 was hand operated. You would place a page in the image station and press a footswitch to take an image. A computer would keep track of your work, and title the fiche with a light pipe system of fiber optic strands. The models 2-4 were automatically fed and computer controlled with vacuum belt transport mechanisms and page flippers. The Xerox model 820 was a common computer for their control, later replaced with PC's. The company was bought by Banctec in the mid 90's, I don't know the disposition of the hardware anymore. Many of my customers still used the 820's and saw no reason to "upgrade", other than the looming scarcity of 8in disks. Most customers would file the floppies with customer information and needed a steady supply of them. http://www.pacifichartec.com/documate.htm http://www.fichenet.com/TDCRepair.htm From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Aug 15 13:29:50 2008 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 12:29:50 -0600 Subject: free - two large 9 track tape units; boston area In-Reply-To: <27437.1218821794@mini> References: <27437.1218821794@mini> Message-ID: <48A5CB1E.90807@jetnet.ab.ca> Brad Parker wrote: > Hi > > I have two (2x) 9-track tape units I no longer need. These are rack > mounted units, not currently in racks. One is brand new. I'm pretty > sure both have pertec interfaces and could be driven from most any > pertec interface. > > Hey I want audio tape units. Got any hiding? :) > I believe both will read 800 bpi & 1600 tapes. Not sure if they will go > beyond that. The are physically clean and in good shape. > > Anyone want them? > > If you do, these need to be picked up. They are way too heavy for > shipping. > > ps: if someone take them *both* I will offer to throw in a 19" rack on > wheels. it's clean and in good shape with a dec power module on the > bottom. > > How can one refuse? You have wheels, a massive power supply and tape reels that rock back and forth to look impressive. > -brad > > Brad Parker > Heeltoe Consulting > +1-781-483-3101 > http://www.heeltoe.com > > > From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Fri Aug 15 13:42:26 2008 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric J Korpela) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 11:42:26 -0700 Subject: Upgrading early BIOS In-Reply-To: <48A483A3.8020703@gmail.com> References: <01C8FDFC.66B3BB60@mandr71> <48A3F9E7.2820.35E0F5@cclist.sydex.com> <48A46D29.7080507@gmail.com> <48A41227.30782.949C3C@cclist.sydex.com> <48A483A3.8020703@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 12:12 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Given that IDE was more > accessible due to it being cheaper technology, I'm surprised that it too > didn't gain a reputation for requiring goat sacrifices and the like that > SCSI did. I suppose cost wins out over common sense at times... I'll give some additional reasons... 0. Most people never actually did backups and still don't. 1. SCSI supported daisy chaining with too many devices on one chain. With two devices and one host on one cable there is less likelihood of a problem than there is with with two devices and one host on two chained cables with a terminator. And far less likelihood of a problem than there is with 7 devices and one host on 7 cables and a terminator. One incompatible or uncooperative device on the chain and they all stop working. 2. DB-25 implementations of SCSI allowed the use of cheap printer cables that really weren't up to the task of handling SCSI data rates. 3. Termination options could also be a pain... Terminator on the device (meaning you need to open the box to see if it's terminated). Autotermination (which sometimes put termination at the wrong spot in the chain. Passive terminators. Active terminators. The Mac IIfx special black terminator. SCSI printer interfaces that didn't even have a second connector on them. And later when wide SCSI showed up, narrow devices would only terminate half the lines. 4. For disks IDE was (and still is) half the price for the same drive with a different controller. > Yep - there was an awful lot of proprietary stuff out there. Personally I'm > a DLT fan - like you say, it's expensive, but it's worth it for the > reliability. I'm totally off tape. Our experience with DLT is that the drives don't last, transfer rates are too slow, and the media are too unreliable and too expensive. Haven't tried LTO Ultrium, but for $1700 for a drive and $40 for a 400GB (uncompressed) tape it's too expensive when you can get 750GB SATA drives for $150. (The crossover point is 17TB). Eric From eric at brouhaha.com Fri Aug 15 13:51:42 2008 From: eric at brouhaha.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 11:51:42 -0700 Subject: Bernoulli Box controller? In-Reply-To: References: <48A5266B.3030600@msu.edu>, <51ea77730808150715v1599c590n60ea9cbdef2ea3e0@mail.gmail.com> <48A55FF0.26037.5AC6E4E@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <48A5D03E.1040208@brouhaha.com> Rich Alderson wrote: > The original Macintosh-compatible Bernoulli Box hooked to the > external floppy interface, and was available in 10MB and 20MB. I never saw one that hooked to the floppy interface, but it's certainly possible. > SCSI didn't come to the Mac until the SE, as I remember things. SCSI appeared on the Macintosh Plus, introduced in early 1986. The SE was introduced in April 1987. Most of the early Iomega Bernoulli products used SASI. From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Aug 15 14:13:25 2008 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 15:13:25 -0400 Subject: Upgrading early BIOS In-Reply-To: References: <01C8FDFC.66B3BB60@mandr71> <48A483A3.8020703@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200808151513.25956.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 15 August 2008, Eric J Korpela wrote: > On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 12:12 PM, Jules Richardson > > Yep - there was an awful lot of proprietary stuff out there. > > Personally I'm a DLT fan - like you say, it's expensive, but it's > > worth it for the reliability. > > I'm totally off tape. Our experience with DLT is that the drives > don't last, transfer rates are too slow, and the media are too > unreliable and too expensive. Haven't tried LTO Ultrium, but for > $1700 for a drive and $40 for a 400GB (uncompressed) tape it's too > expensive when you can get 750GB SATA drives for $150. (The > crossover point is 17TB). If you think that DLT was unreliable, you must have had bad (Imation) tapes, tried to use DLT8000 or cheap-o DLT-1 drives. We had very few problems with Fujifilm tapes, and DLT7000 drives... not that we didn't have any problems, but it was in a high-usage environment (HSM) that I wouldn't have wanted to think about trying to power enough disks to store that much data. Our compression rate is at least 1.5:1 on average, we've found too. FWIW, you can get LTO-2 drives for under $500 (I paid $500 for a top-o-the-line used IBM LTO-2 drive about a year and a half ago), and tapes for quite cheap these days, around $20-$25 for good quality Fujifilm LTO-2 tapes. I also think that comparing the cheapest possible SATA drives to high-end LTO tapes is a bit like apples to oranges; you might as well compare LTO drives to $1/GB FC/SAS disks, which have a similar market, reliability, and speed. Also, if you want to complain about speed, it's hard to find a single disk that can keep up with the streaming speed of a new LTO-4 tape drive.. Tape is keeping up with disk technology just fine. LTO-3 is over 100MB/sec itself, and I've seen at least 50MB/sec off of my U160 SCSI LTO-2 drive. Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From dbetz at xlisper.com Fri Aug 15 14:18:15 2008 From: dbetz at xlisper.com (David Betz) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 15:18:15 -0400 Subject: IBM 4702 In-Reply-To: <48A56273.31769.5B63C0C@cclist.sydex.com> References: <3E8E99AE-F238-45E8-AB41-347FDC487FC0@xlisper.com>, <6.2.3.4.2.20080815123641.067cceb0@mail.threedee.com> <48A56273.31769.5B63C0C@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Aug 15, 2008, at 2:03 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > For a somewhat more complete picture, here's a presentation from an > outfit whose goal was to do away with the 4700 and connect the > peripherals to a PC: > > http://www.nci-inc.com/Migratn.pdf > > I get the impression that the 4702 was seen in banks and the like. > > Cheers, > Chuck Thanks to everyone who offered information on this machine! It sounds like it's proprietary and probably not of much interest to collectors. I guess I'll let it be recycled by my town dump people. From Paul_Koning at Dell.com Fri Aug 15 14:27:34 2008 From: Paul_Koning at Dell.com (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 15:27:34 -0400 Subject: Upgrading early BIOS Ref