From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Sep 1 00:00:16 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 23:00:16 -0600 Subject: Any interest in a Commodore Plus 4? In-Reply-To: <200709010352.l813qjVU015380@floodgap.com> References: <200709010352.l813qjVU015380@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <46D8F1E0.7040108@jetnet.ab.ca> Cameron Kaiser wrote: >>> The colour palette is very nice, however. (121 colours) >> That's an interesting number -- how was that number reached? 11 x 11? > > No, 16 colours x 8 luminances, but one of the colours is black. (The greys > are under the 'white' colour.) > Must be the same designer as in the Hitch-hikers guide the the Galaxy. "You mean the blinking back light on the black background !?"... From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Sep 1 00:11:53 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 31 Aug 2007 22:11:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Timex Sinclair tape In-Reply-To: <668044.21688.qm@web23411.mail.ird.yahoo.com> References: <668044.21688.qm@web23411.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 1 Sep 2007, Andrew Burton wrote: > David Griffith wrote: > Would someone here be interested in a Timex Sinclair "Power Pack 1" tape? > What games/programs are on it? TSCALC (calculator with trig functions) TSBAR (bargraphs) TSGRAPH (polynomial graphing) TSBANNER (moving banner "very useful in a store display window or even to leave messages on the TV at home!") -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Sep 1 01:34:46 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 07:34:46 +0100 Subject: British Computers. In-Reply-To: <166237.48415.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> References: <166237.48415.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46D90806.2000103@dunnington.plus.com> On 01/09/2007 01:22, Chris M wrote: > NIMBUS NIMBUS NIMBUS Made by Research Machines, though. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From quapla at xs4all.nl Sat Sep 1 02:14:13 2007 From: quapla at xs4all.nl (Ed Groenenberg) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 09:14:13 +0200 (CEST) Subject: NCR UNIX puter on eBay In-Reply-To: <265449.72752.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> References: <265449.72752.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <12258.88.211.153.27.1188630853.squirrel@webmail.xs4all.nl> Hmm, seem to remember that it may be a Tower-16 (68000 cpu, 1 or 2M Ram, 200Mb disk). Ed > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&Item=290110351771&Category=1247 > > comments? thoughts? suggestions? Virtually nothing > retrieved by googling, though there is a vendor that > has one presumably. > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Need a vacation? Get great deals > to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. > http://travel.yahoo.com/ > From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Sep 1 02:16:24 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 08:16:24 +0100 Subject: NCR UNIX puter on eBay In-Reply-To: <265449.72752.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> References: <265449.72752.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46D911C8.9010003@yahoo.co.uk> Chris M wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&Item=290110351771&Category=1247 > > comments? thoughts? suggestions? Virtually nothing > retrieved by googling, though there is a vendor that > has one presumably. Tower model of some sort. Nice system if it's a later one with SCSI, s bit bulky and slow otherwise ('slow' being a relative term on here :-) I'd worry about the utter lack of testing, though. Worry even more about the 'not been inside' aspect; that always reads like a nice get-out clause to me when you find someone's pulled the drives or half the boards out of it... It's still got the PMC board in it (CPU and bus control) at least, as that's what the status LEDs, reset switch etc. are mounted on. If it's all there and working then it could be a nice system to have. If it's not, then you'd be screwed as OS media for these things doesn't seem to exist any more. (See Jerry's recent thread about these machines on here) cheers Jules From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Sat Sep 1 00:15:37 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 06:15:37 +0100 Subject: British Computers. Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA61@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Hi Tony Well I got a good response to my musings re British Computers. I'm busy cutting and pasting all of the data to give me a list of who said what and who has what. A passing thought.. should there be a British Section at Bletchley? Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 31 August 2007 23:35 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: British Computers. > Wasn't the Dragons (Dragon 32 & Dragon 64) made by a Welsh company? > (Still British, but I don't know anything about the computers other > than their name) Yes. The Dragon 32 was based on the same Motorola Application Note (for the 6883) as the Tandy Color Computer, anf is a very similar machine. Although for some inexplicable reason, the BASIC tokens are differnntly ordered, so a binary BASIC program from a Dragon won;t load on a CoCo and vice versa... The main differece between the hardware of the Dragon and the CoCo is the printer port. There were 3 PIA lines left over once the necessary signal had been taken for the sound, cassette port, keyboard, VDG control, etc. As er all know, the CoCo used them for a bit-banged RS232 port. On the Dragon, they were the Strobe, Busy and ACK lines of a Centronics port. The data for that came from the 8 keyboard scan lines (one port of a PIA), suitably buffered. There was no problem with the dual use of this port, the machine didn't try to read the ekybaord inptus when it was sending a character to the printer, and the printer ignored the keyboard scan 'data' because there was no Strobe signal along with it. The Dragon 64 has (not surpisingly) twice as much RAM, and also a real hardware RS23 port, based IIRC on the 6551. > > Amstrad > > Weren't the Amstrad's called Schneiders in some European country(s)? Yes, I beleive so. -tony From james.rice at gmail.com Sat Sep 1 08:40:08 2007 From: james.rice at gmail.com (James Rice) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 07:40:08 -0600 Subject: For all the AIXheads In-Reply-To: <46D87F9D.8040300@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200708311648.38949.pat@computer-refuge.org> <46D87F9D.8040300@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: On 8/31/07, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Patrick Finnegan wrote: > >> It looks like UCLA AIX archive is being taken offline. Don't know > >> about existing mirrors at this time, but if you want it now's the > >> time to get it (before September 4). > > > > Huh? URL? > > And is someone sorting out a rescue? :-) > > > I'm adding a mirror to ftp.blackcube.org I have been planning a clean up of blackcube's archives as it's pretty disorganized and I also need to add more disk space so I guess this it the time to get started on those projects. At this time, I've archived 14.5gb and have a bit over 12gb to go. James (blackcube) -- www.blackcube.org - The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Sep 1 09:43:40 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 09:43:40 -0500 Subject: another test Message-ID: <003401c7eca6$7cef1cc0$6500a8c0@BILLING> I've been working on the mail gateway that sits in front of the classiccmp machine, just a test to make sure things are going the way I expect. No reply needed. Jay From stephane.tsacas at gmail.com Sat Sep 1 10:38:58 2007 From: stephane.tsacas at gmail.com (Stephane Tsacas) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 17:38:58 +0200 Subject: 7 Vaxen + disks & monitors on Dovebid Message-ID: http://www.dovebid.com/assets/display.asp?itemid=smi26204 Lot n? 2028 Lot of the following: 6-6in Wafer Loader Conversion Kits - Type 3: 3-6in Wafer Loader Conversion Kits - Type 2, 7-Digital - VAX Workstation systems, most with peripherals (visual controllers, monitors, keyboards, printers, cables), 5- 9.1GB SCSI Hard Drives: All items 10 year old condition good working condition when removed from tools 2 years ago. (palletized and ready for loading) (location : Corvallis, OR). -- Stephane Paris, France. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 1 12:16:15 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 10:16:15 -0700 Subject: 7 Vaxen + disks & monitors on Dovebid In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46D93BEF.311.57D0200@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Sep 2007 at 17:38, Stephane Tsacas wrote: > http://www.dovebid.com/assets/display.asp?itemid=smi26204 What do you think? Either surplus OSU equipment or possibly from the HP Corvallis facility? Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 1 12:25:01 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 10:25:01 -0700 Subject: 7 Vaxen + disks & monitors on Dovebid In-Reply-To: <46D93BEF.311.57D0200@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <46D93BEF.311.57D0200@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46D93DFD.30048.5850AA1@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Sep 2007 at 10:16, Chuck Guzis wrote: > What do you think? Either surplus OSU equipment or possibly from the > HP Corvallis facility? Never mind--it's the HP stuff as described by the listing. I needed another cup of coffee... Cheers, Chuck From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Sat Sep 1 14:45:22 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 15:45:22 -0400 Subject: 9 track tapes and racks Message-ID: <200709012023.l81KNC2j021807@billy.ezwind.net> We have a bunch, as in too many to count at this point in time, of 9 track tapes and the free standing tape racks they are hanging on, to dispose of over the next few weeks. I will putting a few on ebay along with other stuff as it gets sorted out what has and has not been spoken for. Mucho thanks to those to all of you who bid in the ebay selloff. All involved conceder it has been a success, and IBMcollectables now has a TrueBlue xSeries quad Xeon with twin RAIDS, it is not NEW but it is a whole lot more computer then the 1850R-400 it is currently crawling along on. I hope to get Gallery 2.x loaded and SQL loaded so I can get the site updated and moved over soon. Oh ya....I digress ... as for the 9 tracks and racks Question One: anyone interested in picking things up here in Columbus, contact me offlist. Question Two: anyone know of any use for 9 track tapes ? Question Three: what is the "Green" thing to do with them, or do we let the local recycler take them all ? PS: we have 4 3350's spares and two 3420 Tape Units (spare / parts - mostly complete but not working), and , some card cabnets currently not spoken for. Please contact me off list. Have a happy weekend everyone, OSU WON ! and that school up north just LOST ! Bob at GoBucks.com Bob at IBMcollectables.com From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Sep 1 15:32:25 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 16:32:25 -0400 Subject: eprom "dumping" In-Reply-To: <200708290759.DAA25279@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <872690.79541.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> <200708290759.DAA25279@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200709011632.25286.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 29 August 2007 03:44, der Mouse wrote: > > as most of us know, the IBM PC and PC/AT (I think) have extra rom > > sockets. If you want to obtain a dump of an eprom, could you simply > > plug them into these spare sockets and use Debug or whatever to > > capture an image? Seems straitforward enough, but I figured it > > wouldn't hurt to ask... > > Perhaps - if you have such a machine. (I don't.) > > I cobbled together a breadboard of TTL (mostly latches/counters and > muxes) which, with suitable software support on the host, lets me read > ROMs via a parallel port. It's not especially fast, but it's a good > deal faster than a serial line....I really need to transfer it from a > breadboard to something a bit more permanent. If there's interest I > can draw up a schematic and parts list.... That would be of interest to me. Also of interest would be something similar that would allow writing to a RAM chip that would appear as read-only to an 8-bit target system. I have *lots* of TTL on hand here... :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 1 15:45:54 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 13:45:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: British Computers. In-Reply-To: <46D90806.2000103@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <703909.65755.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> of this I was aware --- Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 01/09/2007 01:22, Chris M wrote: > > NIMBUS NIMBUS NIMBUS > > Made by Research Machines, though. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Got a little couch potato? Check out fun summer activities for kids. http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Sep 1 15:59:47 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 16:59:47 -0400 Subject: HP DraftMaster I In-Reply-To: <46D6D681.4843.1473875@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20070830080852.C74015@shell.lmi.net> <46D6D681.4843.1473875@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200709011659.48158.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 30 August 2007 17:38, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 30 Aug 2007 at 16:20, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > I can imagine someone cutting a Centronics printer cable in half, and > > asking how to connect it to the severed end of an HPIB cable... > > Not out of the question in my book. A PC parallel port can drive a > single HPIB device just fine--all it takes is software... :) And while they're not "PC"s, Osborne computers typically had a "Printer/IEEE" port... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Sat Sep 1 16:01:33 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 17:01:33 -0400 Subject: semi-modern HP mini available In-Reply-To: <003501c7eb53$53bdf780$6500a8c0@BILLING> References: <103029.80004.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <003501c7eb53$53bdf780$6500a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <200709011701.33870.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 30 August 2007 18:15, Jay West wrote: > Ian wrote.... > > > Gah. If only it were closer... > > And here I was hoping to trade them for some Pr1me Gear ;) > > > Hopefully someone rescues this. These are really neat boxen. > > Yes, but especially the Autoraid units. Those are really nice arrays. If I had the resources, I'd come and get 'em. Unfortunately my truck is still a work in progress, and other consideratoins (like getting laid off again) are also putting a damper on the idea... :-( -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 1 16:09:53 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 14:09:53 -0700 (PDT) Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... Message-ID: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> I know nothing about AIX or it's associated hardware (oh ok I know it's made by IBM). I know little more about HP-UX. All I know is I want a box/boxes I can run this stuph on. This is a continual plea and the cry of my heart :(. I know there's some of this stuph out there for me. Question is how do I get it. Thus I turn to y'all. Please help. Please... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/ From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Sep 1 16:12:46 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 22:12:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: British Computers. In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA61@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <43751.74295.qm@web23414.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Rod Smallwood wrote:> Hi Tony > Well I got a good response to my musings re > British Computers. > I'm busy cutting and pasting all of the data to > give me a list of who > said what and who has what. A passing > thought.. should there be a > British Section at Bletchley? > > Rod Yup, definately. Would make it an even better experience when going there. I mean there are loads of computers with have all heard about, but very few we have actually seen (or have the priviledge to use). Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 1 16:48:13 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 22:48:13 +0100 (BST) Subject: HP integral , 82297a In-Reply-To: <46D87BFB.2050608@bluewin.ch> from "Jos Dreesen" at Aug 31, 7 10:37:15 pm Message-ID: > > I seem to rember that people on this list ( Tony ?) have extended a > 512K memory expansion for the HP integral. Alas not me. I've upgraded an HP9816 mainboard from 256K to 1M (and for that matter an HP42S from 8K ro 32K), but that's all. However, my Integral came with a 1M memory board which claims to be an HP82916 (PCB 82916-60001). > < from "Chris M" at Aug 31, 7 05:22:32 pm Message-ID: > > NIMBUS NIMBUS NIMBUS Which is a Research Machines (RML) machine (all 3 times!) -tony From james at machineroom.info Sat Sep 1 04:33:27 2007 From: james at machineroom.info (James) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 10:33:27 +0100 Subject: British Computers. In-Reply-To: <46D8AB89.603@dunnington.plus.com> References: <46D8AB89.603@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <46D931E7.7050506@machineroom.info> Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 31/08/2007 23:18, Tony Duell wrote: > >> Whitechaple Computer Works (MG1 32016-based workstation, Hitec >> MIPS-based workstations) > > Ah, that's the one I was trying to remember. I know someone who has > one, or perhaps two. > And: (from Jim Austins collection) : Elliot & Ferranti Psion (organiser etc.) Whitecross (WX9xxx & later). Massively parallel transputer (and later x86) SQL machines. Doesn't do much without a Sun frontend but the machine itself was designed & manufactured in the UK. Sadly, the transputers it uses are ST rather than Inmos. I have one as a pet :-) Flite (68K training systems). Still going too! Does British Olivetti count? I once had a BCS2??? machine. Strangely, I don't recall anything from Ireland. With a lot of IT compnies now having a large presence there it strikes me as strange. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Sep 1 18:49:40 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2007 00:49:40 +0100 Subject: British Computers. In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA61@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA61@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <46D9FA94.5020202@yahoo.co.uk> Rod Smallwood wrote: > A passing thought.. should there be a British Section at Bletchley? Don't worry, there will be :-) Plus there'll be various other British machines littering other sections (Inmos, ICL, Elliott, Marconi, BCL, Digico, Diamond etc.) which naturally fit better with some of the other 'themes'. I'm not quite sure when the room with the focus on British machines will come on-line; notionally we're starting at the top end of the building (Colossus, Tunny et al, workshop, really big iron, analogue machines) and working our way down the corridor room-by-room. The 'British Room' is about halfway down - hopefully get to that one in around 6 months or so. It's slow going as every room ends up having to be gutted, cleaned and repainted... I was going to ask about Irish machines and see that James got there first; did Ireland ever make any micros? We spent today doing some final assessment work on the ICL 2966 mainframe prior to its move to final destination (as well as the 40 or so cabinets there seems to be a metric buttload of spares). Wall-painting's now finished in the room that it'll be going in to, and a couple of different firms are coming in on Monday to see the beast and give us a quote for moving it. If all goes well hopefully it'll get shifted in the next couple of weeks... cheers Jules From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Sep 1 19:36:09 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 18:36:09 -0600 Subject: British Computers. In-Reply-To: <46D9FA94.5020202@yahoo.co.uk> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA61@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <46D9FA94.5020202@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <46DA0579.90508@jetnet.ab.ca> Jules Richardson wrote: > I was going to ask about Irish machines and see that James got there > first; did Ireland ever make any micros? I thought I read on some faq that DEC had some computers made in Ireland. I think potatoes not puters when it comes to Ireland. > cheers > Jules > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 1 20:09:17 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 18:09:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: big load of crap in St.Louis, MO Message-ID: <38263.5386.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/8-Free-Vintage-Computers-IBM-Sun-NEC-in-St-Louis_W0QQitemZ200148007909QQihZ010QQcategoryZ1247QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem too bad the NEC 9801 is missing the k/b :( ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC From grant at stockly.com Sat Sep 1 20:29:49 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 17:29:49 -0800 Subject: Best way to toast TTL Message-ID: <0JNP003MVW5A6I60@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Before I write to the group, Kurt Klemm, if you read this please try sending me a message on my web forum at http://www.stockly.com I am getting your e-mails but based on them it sounds like you are not getting mine! : ( --- Now to the rest: I'm wishing I've kept all the broken TTL chips over the years... I am evaluating a TOP2004 programmer for testing TTL chips. I bought it off of ebay from http://www.mcumall.com/comersus/store/comersus_dynamicIndex.asp I bought it on ebay because the price was cheaper. They are located in Canada and it took 5 days to get shipped to Alaska. Very well packed. The other TOP programmers ship from china/japan. I want to be able to recommend a TTL tester to my customers of the Kenbak kit. With 132 74xx TTL chips it would really come in handy! So far I think it does a good job. If I lift a signal leg on a 74LS04 it both can't auto detect anything and will report a 7404 as bad. I only have one known bad part, a 74LS376. It DID report it as bad and undetectable. What I'm wondering is if anyone knows how I can prematurely kill a TTL device or simulate static failure. I'd like to try to test how thoroughly the programmer tests the chips. It can't tell the difference between a 7410 and 7412, but that isn't too important for knowing the chip works (mostly) On a second note, I have successfully over clocked my Kenbak 500%. Its running happily at 5MHz. : ) Although it gets a lot hotter! I need heat sinks... --I suppose giving one 12v to simulate hooking up a power supply wrong? --Hooking 12v to a device normally powered at 5v? --Shorting out a buffer output? (I think some buffers are designed to be shorted out though) --Vehicle ignition coil to an input? : D Grant From steve at radiorobots.com Sat Sep 1 20:42:45 2007 From: steve at radiorobots.com (Steve Stutman) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 21:42:45 -0400 Subject: Best way to toast TTL In-Reply-To: <0JNP003MVW5A6I60@msgmmp-1.gci.net> References: <0JNP003MVW5A6I60@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Message-ID: <46DA1515.1000000@radiorobots.com> Awhile back, perhaps early '80s, there was a paper or monograph from Tektronix which discussed affects of ESD on TTL. Many people believe(d) that ESD can damage or destroy MOS parts, but that there is no effect on TTL parts. The above publication claimed differently. Stated that although ESD does not destroy TTL function, immunty to noise and (IIRC) switching speeds are impacted because of damage to gate structures. Steve Grant Stockly wrote: > Before I write to the group, Kurt Klemm, if you read this please try > sending me a message on my web forum at http://www.stockly.com I am > getting your e-mails but based on them it sounds like you are not > getting mine! : ( > > --- Now to the rest: > > I'm wishing I've kept all the broken TTL chips over the years... > > I am evaluating a TOP2004 programmer for testing TTL chips. I bought > it off of ebay from > http://www.mcumall.com/comersus/store/comersus_dynamicIndex.asp I > bought it on ebay because the price was cheaper. They are located in > Canada and it took 5 days to get shipped to Alaska. Very well > packed. The other TOP programmers ship from china/japan. > > I want to be able to recommend a TTL tester to my customers of the > Kenbak kit. With 132 74xx TTL chips it would really come in handy! > > So far I think it does a good job. If I lift a signal leg on a 74LS04 > it both can't auto detect anything and will report a 7404 as bad. I > only have one known bad part, a 74LS376. It DID report it as bad and > undetectable. > > What I'm wondering is if anyone knows how I can prematurely kill a TTL > device or simulate static failure. I'd like to try to test how > thoroughly the programmer tests the chips. It can't tell the > difference between a 7410 and 7412, but that isn't too important for > knowing the chip works (mostly) > > On a second note, I have successfully over clocked my Kenbak 500%. > Its running happily at 5MHz. : ) Although it gets a lot hotter! I > need heat sinks... > > --I suppose giving one 12v to simulate hooking up a power supply wrong? > --Hooking 12v to a device normally powered at 5v? > --Shorting out a buffer output? (I think some buffers are designed to > be shorted out though) > --Vehicle ignition coil to an input? : D > > Grant > From steve at radiorobots.com Sat Sep 1 20:46:27 2007 From: steve at radiorobots.com (Steve Stutman) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 21:46:27 -0400 Subject: Best way to toast TTL In-Reply-To: <46DA1515.1000000@radiorobots.com> References: <0JNP003MVW5A6I60@msgmmp-1.gci.net> <46DA1515.1000000@radiorobots.com> Message-ID: <46DA15F3.7010103@radiorobots.com> Should have been "effects of ESD on TTL"; prdn. Steve Stutman wrote: > Awhile back, perhaps early '80s, there was a paper or monograph from > Tektronix which discussed affects of ESD on TTL. Many people > believe(d) that ESD can damage or destroy MOS parts, but that there is > no effect on TTL parts. > > The above publication claimed differently. Stated that although ESD > does not destroy TTL function, immunty to noise and (IIRC) switching > speeds are impacted because of damage to gate structures. > > Steve > > > > > > > Grant Stockly wrote: > >> Before I write to the group, Kurt Klemm, if you read this please try >> sending me a message on my web forum at http://www.stockly.com I am >> getting your e-mails but based on them it sounds like you are not >> getting mine! : ( >> >> --- Now to the rest: >> >> I'm wishing I've kept all the broken TTL chips over the years... >> >> I am evaluating a TOP2004 programmer for testing TTL chips. I bought >> it off of ebay from >> http://www.mcumall.com/comersus/store/comersus_dynamicIndex.asp I >> bought it on ebay because the price was cheaper. They are located in >> Canada and it took 5 days to get shipped to Alaska. Very well >> packed. The other TOP programmers ship from china/japan. >> >> I want to be able to recommend a TTL tester to my customers of the >> Kenbak kit. With 132 74xx TTL chips it would really come in handy! >> >> So far I think it does a good job. If I lift a signal leg on a >> 74LS04 it both can't auto detect anything and will report a 7404 as >> bad. I only have one known bad part, a 74LS376. It DID report it as >> bad and undetectable. >> >> What I'm wondering is if anyone knows how I can prematurely kill a >> TTL device or simulate static failure. I'd like to try to test how >> thoroughly the programmer tests the chips. It can't tell the >> difference between a 7410 and 7412, but that isn't too important for >> knowing the chip works (mostly) >> >> On a second note, I have successfully over clocked my Kenbak 500%. >> Its running happily at 5MHz. : ) Although it gets a lot hotter! I >> need heat sinks... >> >> --I suppose giving one 12v to simulate hooking up a power supply wrong? >> --Hooking 12v to a device normally powered at 5v? >> --Shorting out a buffer output? (I think some buffers are designed >> to be shorted out though) >> --Vehicle ignition coil to an input? : D >> >> Grant >> > From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sat Sep 1 20:59:09 2007 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 21:59:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: IBM 700 Mainframe spotted on TV In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Aug 2007, Paxton Hoag wrote: > On an old Spenser Tracy, Kate Hepburn movie called "Desk Set" playing > on the Family Movie Channel. 1957 > > Looked like an IBM 700 series computer. Unfortunitely it was only > shown during the opening credits. If anyone is still interested in this, I put up a batch of screen captures from "Desk Set": http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/DeskSet/ Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Sep 1 21:00:54 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 20:00:54 -0600 Subject: Best way to toast TTL In-Reply-To: <0JNP003MVW5A6I60@msgmmp-1.gci.net> References: <0JNP003MVW5A6I60@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Message-ID: <46DA1956.6090508@jetnet.ab.ca> Grant Stockly wrote: > What I'm wondering is if anyone knows how I can prematurely kill a TTL > device or simulate static failure. Well Just look for the MAGIC SMOKE floating around the room, ITS DEAD JIM :) I'd like to try to test how > thoroughly the programmer tests the chips. It can't tell the difference > between a 7410 and 7412, but that isn't too important for knowing the > chip works (mostly) From what I remember reading about bad chips is that they did not meet AC measurements not DC ones. The flip/flop works great a 1 MHz but not 20Mhz like the spec sheet states. > On a second note, I have successfully over clocked my Kenbak 500%. Its > running happily at 5MHz. : ) Although it gets a lot hotter! I need > heat sinks... God what next ... 12 bits? Ben alias woodelf From wmaddox at pacbell.net Sat Sep 1 21:06:28 2007 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 19:06:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Best way to toast TTL In-Reply-To: <0JNP003MVW5A6I60@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Message-ID: <28447.92289.qm@web82604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Grant Stockly wrote: > I'd like to > try to test how > thoroughly the programmer tests the chips. It can't > tell the > difference between a 7410 and 7412, but that isn't > too important for > knowing the chip works (mostly) Note that cheap IC testers are just truth-table checkers. They cannot identify parts that are out of their rated electrical specs, but which can still drive the load provided by the tester to an acceptable logic level. They are no good for checking timing characteristics, input loading, output drive, etc. This is one reason why such testers cannot distinguish, say, between ordinary gates and logically-equivalent buffers. Similarly, they cannot identify parts that need external components to operate, such as one-shots. As such simple testers go, I have one of these, which is conveniently self-contained: http://www.elexp.com/tst_100.htm The device is called the "Leaper-1" and is sold widely, but Electronix Express has the best price that I could find. An advantage of a PC-based tester, such as the testing function on a device programmer, is that some will let you program your own test vectors. --Bill From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Sep 1 21:14:34 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 22:14:34 -0400 Subject: IBM 700 Mainframe spotted on TV In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > If anyone is still interested in this, I put up a batch of screen > captures from "Desk Set": > > http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/DeskSet/ Quick quiz - who designed the floor? -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Sep 1 21:17:14 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 22:17:14 -0400 Subject: Best way to toast TTL In-Reply-To: <46DA1515.1000000@radiorobots.com> References: <0JNP003MVW5A6I60@msgmmp-1.gci.net> <46DA1515.1000000@radiorobots.com> Message-ID: > The above publication claimed differently. Stated that although ESD does > not destroy TTL function, immunty to noise and (IIRC) switching speeds > are impacted because of damage to gate structures. Long term reliability also takes a hit, even if noise immunity and speed are not impacted. -- Will From grant at stockly.com Sat Sep 1 21:18:31 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 18:18:31 -0800 Subject: Best way to toast TTL In-Reply-To: <46DA1515.1000000@radiorobots.com> References: <0JNP003MVW5A6I60@msgmmp-1.gci.net> <46DA1515.1000000@radiorobots.com> Message-ID: <0JNP00EGAYEGL780@msgmmp-1.gci.net> At 05:42 PM 9/1/2007, you wrote: >Awhile back, perhaps early '80s, there was a paper or monograph from >Tektronix which discussed affects of ESD on TTL. Many people >believe(d) that ESD can damage or destroy MOS parts, but that there >is no effect on TTL parts. > >The above publication claimed differently. Stated that although ESD >does not destroy TTL function, immunty to noise and (IIRC) switching >speeds are impacted because of damage to gate structures. I thought static could poke holes in (that might have been a simple description) or separate PN / NP junctions which in the end didn't impact function but current capacity. I think this was specifically talking about mosfets. Grant From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sat Sep 1 21:33:56 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 19:33:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Best way to toast TTL In-Reply-To: <0JNP003MVW5A6I60@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Message-ID: <331854.27142.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > --I suppose giving one 12v to simulate hooking up a > power supply wrong? > --Hooking 12v to a device normally powered at 5v? > --Shorting out a buffer output? (I think some > buffers are designed > to be shorted out though) > --Vehicle ignition coil to an input? : D Reverse ground and +5v Clock an input way too fast Heat it up far too much (soldering iron/heat gun) Microwave oven. Shufffle....shuffle...shuffle..shuffle....ZAP! Or, of course, to make things appear dead or damaged, all you need to do is manually short an input or output to ground with a wire. Some chips are suprisingly resiliant. I once tried to kill a mask PROM on purpose using static electricity. It took at least three or four good zaps to kill it. -Ian From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Sep 1 21:38:07 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 19:38:07 -0700 Subject: 9 track tapes and racks Message-ID: <46DA220F.2020004@bitsavers.org> > anyone interested in picking things up here in Columbus would be difficult. These are wright-line freestanding racks without rollup doors? The computer muesuem was looking for some, but we were just offered six at JPL. > anyone know of any use for 9 track tapes ? I have lots of tapes that have broken wright-line seals. If you can't find anyone to take them all, I could use the seals, though it's likely you're using the hard plastic auto-load types if they were used with a 3420. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 1 21:43:56 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 19:43:56 -0700 Subject: IBM 700 Mainframe spotted on TV In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <46D9C0FC.4056.784B9C2@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Sep 2007 at 21:59, Mike Loewen wrote: > If anyone is still interested in this, I put up a batch of screen > captures from "Desk Set": > > http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/DeskSet/ There's not a lot here to go on--but the printing unit looks to me like an IBM 402/403 accounting machine and the tape drives like 727s. A bunch of 024/026 keypunches, a 533 read/punch unit and what looks to be a 705 console in the far background. The blinkenlights display, on the other hand, really looks as if it was reused for several TV series... Cheers, Chuck From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sat Sep 1 21:49:22 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 19:49:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 9 track tapes and racks In-Reply-To: <200709012023.l81KNC2j021807@billy.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <551697.15839.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > > Question One: anyone interested in picking things up > here in Columbus, contact me offlist. > > Question Two: anyone know of any use for 9 track > tapes ? > Most definitely - I am in need of nine track tapes. Columbus, where? -Ian From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Sep 1 21:55:00 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 19:55:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Best way to toast TTL In-Reply-To: <331854.27142.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <331854.27142.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070901195329.F2103@shell.lmi.net> Hand it over to a college administator? or a professor of "Computer Science"? give it a fixed term warranty? From grant at stockly.com Sat Sep 1 21:59:01 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 18:59:01 -0800 Subject: Best way to toast TTL In-Reply-To: <28447.92289.qm@web82604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <0JNP003MVW5A6I60@msgmmp-1.gci.net> <28447.92289.qm@web82604.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <0JNQ0036K09X6K70@msgmmp-1.gci.net> >As such simple testers go, I have one of these, >which is conveniently self-contained: > > http://www.elexp.com/tst_100.htm > >The device is called the "Leaper-1" and is >sold widely, but Electronix Express has the >best price that I could find. That is the exact device I'm going to buy next. Can it tell the difference between a 12/10 or a bad 10 to a good one? Have you ever found a chip that tested good but was bad? >An advantage of a PC-based tester, such as the >testing function on a device programmer, >is that some will let you program your own test >vectors. This one can't do custom vectors I think. Its a cheap made in china device. I thought that I could have a recommendation for a cheap and expensive device. Also being able to program/read EPROMs and microcontrollers was a point in favor of the cheap TOP2004. I did just find a bad 7400 in my pile of "tainted" chips. : ) It wouldn't detect as anything. The worst thing to have is a false positive. I would much rather have a tester that returned false negatives. Grant From grant at stockly.com Sat Sep 1 22:07:37 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 19:07:37 -0800 Subject: Best way to toast TTL In-Reply-To: <46DA1956.6090508@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <0JNP003MVW5A6I60@msgmmp-1.gci.net> <46DA1956.6090508@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <0JNQ003GI0OA6K70@msgmmp-1.gci.net> >>On a second note, I have successfully over clocked my Kenbak >>500%. Its running happily at 5MHz. : ) Although it gets a lot >>hotter! I need heat sinks... > >God what next ... 12 bits? >Ben alias woodelf If I told you, I might loose some credibility! ; ) Grant From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Sep 1 22:25:37 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 21:25:37 -0600 Subject: Best way to toast TTL In-Reply-To: <331854.27142.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <331854.27142.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46DA2D31.5020802@jetnet.ab.ca> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Some chips are suprisingly resiliant. I once tried to > kill a mask PROM on purpose using static electricity. > It took at least three or four good zaps to kill it. Wonders if I have any old TTL to toss in the toaster ??? So far I tend to toast transistors in a high voltage ( 300 Volt) power supply. > -Ian PS. Any body got a good schematic for a low noise 300 volt 220 ma power supply with low ripple. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 1 22:25:03 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 20:25:03 -0700 Subject: IBM 700 Mainframe spotted on TV In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: <46D9CA9F.14547.7AA5E63@cclist.sydex.com> On 1 Sep 2007 at 22:14, William Donzelli wrote: > > If anyone is still interested in this, I put up a batch of screen > > captures from "Desk Set": > > > > http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/DeskSet/ > > Quick quiz - who designed the floor? Only because I'm old enough, but that floor design looks like the work of Piet Mondrian. Cheers, Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sat Sep 1 22:26:49 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2007 20:26:49 -0700 Subject: IBM 700 Mainframe spotted on TV References: Message-ID: <46DA2D78.8B0E040A@cs.ubc.ca> William Donzelli wrote: > > > If anyone is still interested in this, I put up a batch of screen > > captures from "Desk Set": > > > > http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/DeskSet/ > > Quick quiz - who designed the floor? It has all the appearance of being by Mondrian, along the lines of "Composition with Red, Blue and Yellow". () The hardware appears to be a mixture of perhaps 700-series tape drives, assorted card equipment and a made-up "CPU" to fulfill the poular expectations of many blinkenlights. From silent700 at gmail.com Sat Sep 1 22:29:23 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 22:29:23 -0500 Subject: big load of crap in St.Louis, MO In-Reply-To: <38263.5386.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> References: <38263.5386.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730709012029p645f047eo22b42f3ba15e6e86@mail.gmail.com> On 9/1/07, Chris M wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/8-Free-Vintage-Computers-IBM-Sun-NEC-in-St-Louis_W0QQitemZ200148007909QQihZ010QQcategoryZ1247QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > > too bad the NEC 9801 is missing the k/b :( I guess according to his rules it's already gone (there's a 1 penny bid.) Too bad, there are a few interesting machines there. If the winner is up Chicago-way and has some cast-offs, let me know. -- j From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Sat Sep 1 22:53:19 2007 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Sat, 1 Sep 2007 23:53:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: IBM 700 Mainframe spotted on TV In-Reply-To: <46D9C0FC.4056.784B9C2@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <46D9C0FC.4056.784B9C2@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 1 Sep 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The blinkenlights display, on the other hand, really looks as if it > was reused for several TV series... It was. If you remember Irwin Allen's "Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea" series, you'll find the light panel on the Seaview: http://www.vttbots.com/interiors_1.html According to that page, it was also used in "The Invisible Boy" and "The Fly". Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/ From cpfeeney at carolina.rr.com Sun Sep 2 02:16:33 2007 From: cpfeeney at carolina.rr.com (Christopher Feeney) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 03:16:33 -0400 Subject: The Don Maslin Software Archive Message-ID: <000001c7ed31$31617740$942465c0$@rr.com> I'm sure you hate this question, but did anything ever happen with Don Maslin's disk collection? I spoke with and exchanged disks with Don over the years and just tonight learned of his death. I'm looking for the MS-DOS 2.11 bootdisk for the Sanyo MBC 555-2 From hugh at blemings.org Sun Sep 2 05:58:40 2007 From: hugh at blemings.org (Hugh Blemings) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 20:58:40 +1000 Subject: [Free] Assorted Bits & Pieces (Australia) Message-ID: <20070902205840.a00cf9cd.hugh@blemings.org> Hi, I've been lurking on the list for a while now enjoying the various discussions. Being my first post I'm hoping this email isn't out of place - just hate to junk stuff if it is of use/interest to someone else. I apologise in advance if it truly is complete rubbish - even feedback to that effect is useful, can chuck it with confidence then :) So - the following items are available for the cost of postage or for pickup from Canberra. - Hardware - Motorola "Versamodule Monoboard Microcomputer" 68000 based, c.1980 has a two gold plated edge connectors, one 60 way, other 70 way, board is 14.5" x 9". Also have a matching prototyping board but no backplane or other information. Electrical condition unknown, physically boards are ok but a few bent pins. Advanced Gravis Mousestick Controller - ADB Model for Mac SE, II Classic and LC. Dusty but believed to be working.. - Software - OpenVMS Alpha Operating System V7.1 Binaries December 1996 Novell Netware 4.11 and Groupwise 5.2 Spectrum Holobyte "Vette" Street Racing Simulation - Mac Plus or Mac II Microsoft Flight Simulator V4.0 For Mac Plus, Classic, LC, SE, SE/30 or other Mac II family computer. From thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org Sun Sep 2 06:57:33 2007 From: thrashbarg at kaput.homeunix.org (Alexis) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 21:27:33 +0930 Subject: [Free] Assorted Bits & Pieces (Australia) In-Reply-To: <20070902205840.a00cf9cd.hugh@blemings.org> References: <20070902205840.a00cf9cd.hugh@blemings.org> Message-ID: <200709022127.34149.thrashbarg@kaput.homeunix.org> On Sun, 2 Sep 2007 08:28:40 pm Hugh Blemings wrote: > Hi, > > I've been lurking on the list for a while now enjoying the various > discussions. Ditto > > Being my first post I'm hoping this email isn't out of place - just hate to > junk stuff if it is of use/interest to someone else. > > I apologise in advance if it truly is complete rubbish - even feedback to > that effect is useful, can chuck it with confidence then :) > > So - the following items are available for the cost of postage or for > pickup from Canberra. > > > - Hardware - > > Motorola "Versamodule Monoboard Microcomputer" 68000 based, c.1980 has a > two gold plated edge connectors, one 60 way, other 70 way, board is 14.5" x > 9". Also have a matching prototyping board but no backplane or other > information. Electrical condition unknown, physically boards are ok but a > few bent pins. Nice! How much to post to Adelaide? Cheers. From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Sep 2 12:31:26 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2007 10:31:26 -0700 Subject: The Don Maslin Software Archive Message-ID: <46DAF36E.1000807@bitsavers.org> > but did anything ever happen with Don > Maslin's disk collection? It is assumed to be lost. Parallel efforts are ongoing to build collections from what survives in other sources. Sadly, a dozen book boxes of 8" disks that I gave him when I didn't have the time to do anything with them are gone as well. Fortunately the really obscure stuff was already read from the set. From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Sep 2 13:52:55 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 14:52:55 -0400 Subject: The Don Maslin Software Archive In-Reply-To: <46DAF36E.1000807@bitsavers.org> References: <46DAF36E.1000807@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <6939235A-93FC-4E98-B7D9-364D862F3F2E@neurotica.com> On Sep 2, 2007, at 1:31 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > but did anything ever happen with Don > > Maslin's disk collection? > > It is assumed to be lost. So what actually happened...did his family just throw it all in the trash or something? Does anyone know? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Sep 2 15:29:34 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 13:29:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: The Don Maslin Software Archive In-Reply-To: <000001c7ed31$31617740$942465c0$@rr.com> References: <000001c7ed31$31617740$942465c0$@rr.com> Message-ID: <20070902132855.F31999@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 2 Sep 2007, Christopher Feeney wrote: > I'm sure you hate this question, but did anything ever happen with Don > Maslin's disk collection? I spoke with and exchanged disks with Don over > the years and just tonight learned of his death. The world lost a lot when he died. And his collection is gone, too. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sun Sep 2 16:14:00 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 22:14:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: Best way to toast TTL In-Reply-To: <0JNP003MVW5A6I60@msgmmp-1.gci.net> from "Grant Stockly" at Sep 1, 7 05:29:49 pm Message-ID: > What I'm wondering is if anyone knows how I can prematurely kill a > TTL device or simulate static failure. I'd like to try to test how > thoroughly the programmer tests the chips. It can't tell the > difference between a 7410 and 7412, but that isn't too important for > knowing the chip works (mostly) IIRC, the 7410 is a triple 3-input NAND gate (totem pole outputs), the 7412 is the open-collector version. If it can't tell those apart, how can it reject a 7410 where one or more of the 'top' transsitors in the totem pole output have failed? And yes, I've had that failure mode (actually in 74H series devices). FOr that matter can it tell if 3-state outputs are working correctly (rather than, say, being stuck high when they should be disabled)? If you twant to simulate simple failures, how about wiring the IC to a DIL header with one or more pins open-circuited (and maybe tying pins that should be outputs to ground rather than to the output pin of the chip). -tony From roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk Sun Sep 2 17:35:01 2007 From: roger.holmes at microspot.co.uk (Roger Holmes) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 23:35:01 +0100 Subject: British Computers In-Reply-To: <200709020304.l8233WQ7043527@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200709020304.l8233WQ7043527@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <91E0C6EA-3211-4E34-B5F5-A9D668732CBF@microspot.co.uk> > >> I was going to ask about Irish machines and see that James got there >> first; did Ireland ever make any micros? > > I thought I read on some faq that DEC had some computers made in > Ireland. > I think potatoes not puters when it comes to Ireland Many an Apple was made in their factory in Cork. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 2 18:46:15 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2007 16:46:15 -0700 Subject: The Don Maslin Software Archive In-Reply-To: <20070902132855.F31999@shell.lmi.net> References: <000001c7ed31$31617740$942465c0$@rr.com>, <20070902132855.F31999@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <46DAE8D7.11329.C086AB3@cclist.sydex.com> On 2 Sep 2007 at 13:29, Fred Cisin wrote: > And his collection is gone, too. Fortunately, for everyone, Don was generous with his material. I suspect that a fair amount can be obtained from those with whom he regularly corresponded. I know that I have a few of his samples. Cheers, Chuck From oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org Sun Sep 2 21:10:40 2007 From: oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2007 20:10:40 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Reviving DEC RX01 power supply Message-ID: <1188785440.46db6d20ebe25@www.jblaser.org> I've got a H771-A (120V/60Hz) that's acting up on me. Part of an old PDP-11/03 that I'm trying to get back on its feet. As I've done with 4 or 5 other RX units in the past couple of years, after cleaning it up and reforming the capacitors, but before plugging everything together, I wanted to check output voltages. I'm sure glad I did because this guy is not normal! Where you usually see 24V, I'm getting 42V! And the so- called 'Raw DC' which is normally around 10V is 17V. At least the +/-5V lines are more or less correct at +5.1V and -5.3V, respectively. I need some help here. I've checked the printset on this, and frankly, this analog stuff is so much voodoo (to me). I get lost pretty quickly unless the circuit is simple, say, like a flashlight. Anyway, I've checked a number of voltages and voltage drops at various places[1] that I thought might lead me to something, but I can't say that I'm any wiser now. I'm sure this is fixable, even by me, IF I can locate out the faulty component(s). Hints or guidance on what else I should look at would surely be appreciated! - Jared [1] Here are voltage readings taken at a few locations: - Transformer outputs (these look normal): blue: 27.8VAC purple: 11.2VAC - PCB connector P1: 2 (blu): -5.3v 3 (blk): 0v 4 (gry/red): 5.1v 5 (blk): 0v 6 (red): 42v (should be 24v!!!) - PCB connector P2: 1 (org): 17v (should be 9.5v!!!) 3 (blk): 0v 4 (gry/red): 5.1v 5 (blk): 0v - Voltage drop across: D5 15v Zener: 17v D11 6.8v Zener: 7v R12: 25v R13: 12v From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Sun Sep 2 21:21:50 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 03:21:50 +0100 Subject: British Computers. References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA53@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <46D817C8.5090203@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <00c501c7edd1$2ff4d230$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > Tangerine (the Microtan) >.... > Oric (offshoot of Tangerine, made Oric-1 and Atmos) I'm 99% sure that Tangering = Oric. ISTR that they changed their name from Tangerine to Oric when they launched the Oric 1? Also, I'm certain I remember seeing "Tangerine" etched on the PCBs of the Orics I used to own. > Transam (the Tuscan) They produced at least one other (8080 based) machine prior to the Tuscan, but for the life of me I cannot remember what it was called; like the Tuscan it appeared as a build it yourself series in ETI. > Memotech Originally a maker of add-ons for the ZX-81, RAM packs etc. Great machines IMHO. TTFN - Pete. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 2 21:23:07 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2007 19:23:07 -0700 Subject: Best way to toast TTL In-Reply-To: <46DA2D31.5020802@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <331854.27142.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <46DA2D31.5020802@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <46DB0D9B.28772.C9806BC@cclist.sydex.com> Ian Primus wrote: > Some chips are suprisingly resiliant. I once tried to > kill a mask PROM on purpose using static electricity. > It took at least three or four good zaps to kill it. Aw, Ian, if you're serious about this, you need your own HiPot. Lots of fun trying to zap operation pieces of equipment with one. Or build your own Marx generator, for even more spectacular results: http://www.electricstuff.co.uk/marxthree.html Cheers, Chuck From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Sun Sep 2 21:27:42 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 03:27:42 +0100 Subject: British Computers. References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA53@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <00ca01c7edd2$019d9c90$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > RAIR Black box RAIR was a British company???? You learn summat new every day! You can also add the "Mimi" from "British Micro" to that list. We had a lab full of them at Leicester Polytechnic when I was there. I believe they ran CP/M but I can't verify that since the course I was on used the Superbrain lab.... TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Sun Sep 2 21:28:53 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 03:28:53 +0100 Subject: British Computers. References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA53@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <00d501c7edd2$2c10c4c0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > Not forgetting Sinclair Why!?? I'm trying *VERY* hard....they don't even make passable doorstops.... TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Sun Sep 2 21:35:12 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 03:35:12 +0100 Subject: British Computers. References: <166237.48415.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00f401c7edd3$0dab4900$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > NIMBUS NIMBUS NIMBUS RML RML RML.... :-) TTFN - Pete. From sellam at vintagetech.com Sun Sep 2 22:07:39 2007 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 20:07:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Quay 900 (generic S-100) systems available in Denver Message-ID: Anyone interested in these? http://www.siconic.com/crap/Quay-900-1.jpg http://www.siconic.com/crap/Quay-900-2.jpg They are in Denver, Colorado. I have a couple myself, though they are not "Quay" branded. Mine are generically generic (no branding at all). I believe they have Godbout inside. ContactP: Alan -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] _______________________________________________ BACCL mailing list BACCL at lists.baccl.net http://lists.baccl.net/mailman/listinfo/baccl From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Sep 2 22:21:17 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2007 21:21:17 -0600 Subject: Best way to toast TTL In-Reply-To: <46DB0D9B.28772.C9806BC@cclist.sydex.com> References: <331854.27142.qm@web52709.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <46DA2D31.5020802@jetnet.ab.ca> <46DB0D9B.28772.C9806BC@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46DB7DAD.70100@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Or build your own Marx generator, for even more spectacular results: > > http://www.electricstuff.co.uk/marxthree.html Well that is fun, but right now I am planning to toast transistors. I plan to build a 300 volt power supply @ 230 ma but the transformer under line high conditions is 415 volts. All the transistors I can find easily are 400 vceo. Ben alias woodelf PS. All the heatsinks I can find are good to 5 watts. I need about a 30 watt heat sink... Sigh. From wmaddox at pacbell.net Sun Sep 2 22:56:40 2007 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 20:56:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Quay 900 (generic S-100) systems available in Denver In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <667068.53944.qm@web82610.mail.mud.yahoo.com> --- Sellam Ismail wrote: > > Anyone interested in these? > > http://www.siconic.com/crap/Quay-900-1.jpg > http://www.siconic.com/crap/Quay-900-2.jpg > > They are in Denver, Colorado. > > I have a couple myself, though they are not "Quay" > branded. Mine are > generically generic (no branding at all). I believe > they have Godbout > inside. I used a Quay system briefly in 1980 that looked like these. The innards appeared to be proprietary, and were built on a couple of large boards mounted horizontally, IIRC, not S-100 style. --Bill From legalize at xmission.com Sun Sep 2 23:13:16 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2007 22:13:16 -0600 Subject: Quay 900 (generic S-100) systems available in Denver In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 02 Sep 2007 20:07:39 -0700. Message-ID: In article , Sellam Ismail writes: > Anyone interested in these? The terminals look interesting; are they part of the deal? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Sep 2 23:21:31 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 21:21:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: British Computers. In-Reply-To: <00c501c7edd1$2ff4d230$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> from Ensor at "Sep 3, 7 03:21:50 am" Message-ID: <200709030421.l834LVcg011952@floodgap.com> > I'm 99% sure that Tangering = Oric. ISTR that they changed their name from > Tangerine to Oric when they launched the Oric 1? Yes, I believe that is correct. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Everything you think you know is wrong. -- Jack Chalker -------------------- From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Sun Sep 2 23:26:32 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 05:26:32 +0100 Subject: British Computers. References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA53@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local><46D817C8.5090203@dunnington.plus.com> <00c501c7edd1$2ff4d230$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <01fc01c7ede2$9b90fa30$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> >> Transam (the Tuscan) > > They produced at least one other (8080 based) machine prior >to the Tuscan, but for the life of me I cannot remember what >it was called.... Ah, the "Triton"! I knew it would come back to me. :-) TTFN - Pete. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Sep 2 23:34:51 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 21:34:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: British Computers. In-Reply-To: <200709030421.l834LVcg011952@floodgap.com> References: <200709030421.l834LVcg011952@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <20070902213404.N44792@shell.lmi.net> > I'm 99% sure that Tangering = Oric. ISTR that they changed their name from > Tangerine to Oric when they launched the Oric 1? . . . but does it have the true personality of the Oric computer on Blake's 7? From evan at snarc.net Mon Sep 3 00:04:00 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 01:04:00 -0400 Subject: President Computer? Message-ID: <006d01c7ede7$d88cc180$eb4df945@evan> Hi all, Anyone heard of an Australian company called President Computer, circa early/mid 1980s? - Evan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 00:08:57 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 00:08:57 -0500 Subject: Belgian computers? Message-ID: I have the opportunity to travel to Gent, Belgium, in about a month, and with all the recent talk of British computers, I wanted to ask the list if anyone knows if there were ever any Belgian-made computers. I'm mostly interested in 1980s micros, but any sort of machines would be germane. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 3 00:53:15 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 02 Sep 2007 22:53:15 -0700 Subject: Any interest in a Commodore Plus 4? In-Reply-To: <789006.72792.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> References: <46D856CC.6743.1FDF41B@cclist.sydex.com>, <789006.72792.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46DB3EDB.14882.D5864FA@cclist.sydex.com> On 31 Aug 2007 at 18:09, Chris M wrote: > You can get into trouble by using *cpu* on this list > I see. I should know better. I should have said mine > don't have the uP's. MPU would have done just fine. An MPU does not necessarily a CPU make. > These come with rom based word processor, spread- > sheet, etc., and are said to be worth less then the > silicon they're *printed on*. So I guess there's no > point in inquiring whether a 6510 or such could be > hacked in. But you got to admit, it would be fun regardless. It depends on how determined you are. I suspect that even a 65C02 with an appropriate amount of external "glue" to provide the 7 I/O port pins could be pressed into servce. I haven't had the cover off on the one that I have (and may not bother), but I understand that a 7501 MPU was used. As I understand it, location 0000 was used for the port data and 0001 was used to set the direction on the port pins. BTW, the original owner of mine seems to have had the reaction that I did when powering this one up--"ho hum". Mine appears to have been tried once or twice then put away--the box has all of the original packing right down to the twist-ties on the PSU cables. I've also got a 1541 drive that has a game (name escapes me) diskette for the box. The 40x25 text limitation really is too bad. Better keyboard than most modern notebook computers with an odd layout. If you want to buy or trade for my Plus 4 and 1541, drop me a line. I'll even toss in the printer. Cheers, Chuck From janprunk at gmail.com Sun Sep 2 05:21:33 2007 From: janprunk at gmail.com (Jan Prunk) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 12:21:33 +0200 Subject: Computer books from the years 1970-1990 for sale Message-ID: Hello ! Old computer books for sale or trade. I still have most of the collection available. The books vary from the years 1970-1990 The collection contains books about: LISP, Data management, Artificial Intelligence, Automatic data processing, Computer programming etc. >From publishers like: McGraw Hill, M&T Books, Wiley Press, Microsoft They are all in English language and in good condition. The price for one book is 3 Euros + postage. The books are shipped from Slovenia, Europe. I could also trade the books for some older computers. The link to the list is available at: http://yang.mtveurope.org/books.html If you are interested, contact me to my private email address. Kind regards, Jan Prunk -- +------------------------------------------------------------------+ | Jan Prunk GPG key: 00E80E86 | | E-mail: jan at prunk.be Fingerprint: 77C5 156E 29A4 EB6C 1C4A | | http://blog.prunk.be 5EBA 414A 29F5 00E8 0E86 | +------------------------------------------------------------------+ From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Sun Sep 2 09:15:01 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 15:15:01 +0100 Subject: British Computers. Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA66@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Well that's interesting.... How much of it will be running? Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules Richardson Sent: 02 September 2007 00:50 To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: British Computers. Rod Smallwood wrote: > A passing thought.. should there be a British Section at Bletchley? Don't worry, there will be :-) Plus there'll be various other British machines littering other sections (Inmos, ICL, Elliott, Marconi, BCL, Digico, Diamond etc.) which naturally fit better with some of the other 'themes'. I'm not quite sure when the room with the focus on British machines will come on-line; notionally we're starting at the top end of the building (Colossus, Tunny et al, workshop, really big iron, analogue machines) and working our way down the corridor room-by-room. The 'British Room' is about halfway down - hopefully get to that one in around 6 months or so. It's slow going as every room ends up having to be gutted, cleaned and repainted... I was going to ask about Irish machines and see that James got there first; did Ireland ever make any micros? We spent today doing some final assessment work on the ICL 2966 mainframe prior to its move to final destination (as well as the 40 or so cabinets there seems to be a metric buttload of spares). Wall-painting's now finished in the room that it'll be going in to, and a couple of different firms are coming in on Monday to see the beast and give us a quote for moving it. If all goes well hopefully it'll get shifted in the next couple of weeks... cheers Jules From paul0926 at comcast.net Sun Sep 2 11:29:57 2007 From: paul0926 at comcast.net (Paul Heller) Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 10:29:57 -0600 Subject: big load of crap in St.Louis, MO In-Reply-To: <51ea77730709012029p645f047eo22b42f3ba15e6e86@mail.gmail.com> References: <38263.5386.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> <51ea77730709012029p645f047eo22b42f3ba15e6e86@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sep 1, 2007, at 9:29 PM, Jason T wrote: > > I guess according to his rules it's already gone (there's a 1 penny > bid.) Too bad, there are a few interesting machines there. Yeah, that was pretty stupid. I would have paid more than a penny and picked up the equipment as well. We didn't have much time, did we? Paul From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Mon Sep 3 00:33:00 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 06:33:00 +0100 Subject: Belgian computers? Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA6A@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Not as far as I know, but BARCO are a big Belgian maker of TV's and monitors. They may have been involved. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks Sent: 03 September 2007 06:09 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Belgian computers? I have the opportunity to travel to Gent, Belgium, in about a month, and with all the recent talk of British computers, I wanted to ask the list if anyone knows if there were ever any Belgian-made computers. I'm mostly interested in 1980s micros, but any sort of machines would be germane. -ethan From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Mon Sep 3 00:42:47 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 06:42:47 +0100 Subject: British Computers. Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA6B@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> I think the Blakes 7 computer may have been called ZEN. ORAC on Blakes 7 was a device that could predict the future. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin Sent: 03 September 2007 05:35 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: British Computers. > I'm 99% sure that Tangering = Oric. ISTR that they changed their name > from Tangerine to Oric when they launched the Oric 1? . . . but does it have the true personality of the Oric computer on Blake's 7? From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Sep 3 01:52:06 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 07:52:06 +0100 Subject: British Computers. In-Reply-To: <20070902213404.N44792@shell.lmi.net> References: <200709030421.l834LVcg011952@floodgap.com> <20070902213404.N44792@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <46DBAF16.6020303@dunnington.plus.com> On 03/09/2007 05:34, Fred Cisin wrote: >> I'm 99% sure that Tangering = Oric. ISTR that they changed their name from >> Tangerine to Oric when they launched the Oric 1? > > . . . but does it have the true personality of the Oric computer on > Blake's 7? That's "Orac" :-) -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From coredump at gifford.co.uk Mon Sep 3 05:31:25 2007 From: coredump at gifford.co.uk (John Honniball) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 11:31:25 +0100 Subject: Belgian computers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46DBE27D.7050805@gifford.co.uk> Ethan Dicks wrote: > I have the opportunity to travel to Gent, Belgium, in about a month, > and with all the recent talk of British computers, I wanted to ask the > list if anyone knows if there were ever any Belgian-made computers. Wasn't there an 8080 or Z80 machine called the DAI that was Belgian? I seem to recall wanting one when I saw the specs, but I can't quite remember why -- maybe it had the TI sprite graphics chip? -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk From laurens at daemon.be Mon Sep 3 05:42:56 2007 From: laurens at daemon.be (Laurens Vets) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 10:42:56 +0000 Subject: Belgian computers? Message-ID: <20070903104256.6802.qmail@sequoia.daemon.be> John Honniball wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: >> I have the opportunity to travel to Gent, Belgium, in about a month, >> and with all the recent talk of British computers, I wanted to ask the >> list if anyone knows if there were ever any Belgian-made computers. > > Wasn't there an 8080 or Z80 machine called the DAI that was Belgian? > I seem to recall wanting one when I saw the specs, but I can't > quite remember why -- maybe it had the TI sprite graphics chip? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DAI_Personal_Computer That's the first I heard about a Belgian computer. Not sure whether you'll actually find one seen that I never came across one (and in fact, I didn't even know we made computers at one time...) From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Mon Sep 3 04:48:13 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 10:48:13 +0100 Subject: British Computers Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA6F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> DEC Did indeed make systems in Ireland. There where two plants one in Galway and something else at Clonmel I went to Galway loads of times. It was a big FA&T operation assembling 11/34's, 11/70's etc. VAX I suppose later. I think Clonmel was a software duplicating and packing operation for Europe. There was also a plant at Ayr in Scotland. The Scottish plant was called Silicon Glen and the Irish one Silicon Bog. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Roger Holmes Sent: 02 September 2007 23:35 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: British Computers > >> I was going to ask about Irish machines and see that James got there >> first; did Ireland ever make any micros? > > I thought I read on some faq that DEC had some computers made in > Ireland. > I think potatoes not puters when it comes to Ireland Many an Apple was made in their factory in Cork. From c.cooke21 at ntlworld.com Mon Sep 3 05:42:28 2007 From: c.cooke21 at ntlworld.com (Clint) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 11:42:28 +0100 Subject: Lonesome Minicomputer Owner Message-ID: <000a01c7ee17$215c3ce0$33f40752@talltower1> Hi, do you still have the H716 minicomputer? I worked on them from 1970 for some 20 years woth Honeywell in the UK. Do you still need help with your wonderful machine? If you are thinking of disposing of it please let me know. Regards, Clint, UK From Mark.Brennan at ie.fujitsu.com Mon Sep 3 06:55:00 2007 From: Mark.Brennan at ie.fujitsu.com (Brennan Mark) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 12:55:00 +0100 Subject: British Computers In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA6F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <299EB6FC242FCF47AA4118ED9365BF94815FE9@EUROPEV004.europe.fs.fujitsu.com> Hi There, I worked for Wang Computer from 1988-1996, we had a large plant in Limerick making VS and Risc/Intel systems it was also the European Hub for Wang's Network they also ran the DR solutions from that location, I also worked for as Dublin Based Company in 1986/7 hat made PC systems for Thomson. Regards mark ________________________________________________________________________ ________________ Mark Brennan, System Engineer, Fujitsu Services, Airside Business Park, Swords, County Dublin, Ireland Mobile: +353-87-222-2326 Telephone: +353-1-813 6000 Facsimile: +353-1-813 6600 email: mark.brennan at ie.fujitsu.com Web: ie.fujitsu.com This e-mail is only for the use of its intended recipient. Its contents are subject to a duty of confidence and may be privileged. Fujitsu Services does not guarantee that this e-mail has not been intercepted and amended or that it is virus-free. -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod Smallwood Sent: 03 September 2007 10:48 To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: RE: British Computers DEC Did indeed make systems in Ireland. There where two plants one in Galway and something else at Clonmel I went to Galway loads of times. It was a big FA&T operation assembling 11/34's, 11/70's etc. VAX I suppose later. I think Clonmel was a software duplicating and packing operation for Europe. There was also a plant at Ayr in Scotland. The Scottish plant was called Silicon Glen and the Irish one Silicon Bog. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Roger Holmes Sent: 02 September 2007 23:35 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: British Computers > >> I was going to ask about Irish machines and see that James got there >> first; did Ireland ever make any micros? > > I thought I read on some faq that DEC had some computers made in > Ireland. > I think potatoes not puters when it comes to Ireland Many an Apple was made in their factory in Cork. From pcoghlan+cctech at vms.eurokom.ie Mon Sep 3 07:57:12 2007 From: pcoghlan+cctech at vms.eurokom.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 13:57:12 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: British Computers Message-ID: <01MKX5E7KYWWJTE2DK@vms.eurokom.ie> > I was going to ask about Irish machines and see that James got there > first; did Ireland ever make any micros? Several multinationals had or have a presence in Ireland including: Amdahl Apple Dell Digital EMC Fujitsu Siemens Gateway HP IBM Memorex Many of these built computers or peripherals here for the European market. However, it is pretty much the same as equipment thats found everywhere else in the world. I am not aware of anything that could be regarded as being uniquely Irish in the same way that for example Acorn kit could be regarded as being British. Intel also have a large manufacturing presence here as have/had Analog Devices and Motorola (although I think Motorolas operation here was more involved in mobile phones) so unfortunately we're responsible for the production of lots of x86 type microprocessors. I hope none of them were designed here, especially the ones that couldn't divide accurately :-) > >Many an Apple was made in their factory in Cork. > I was disappointed to find that my Mac SE from Cork doesn't have any signatures inside the case so I guess they didn't copy the case moulds used in the US. Regards, Peter. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Sep 3 08:21:02 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 09:21:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: eprom "dumping" In-Reply-To: <200709011632.25286.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <872690.79541.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> <200708290759.DAA25279@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200709011632.25286.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200709031529.LAA12541@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> I cobbled together a breadboard of TTL (mostly latches/counters and >> muxes) which, with suitable software support on the host, lets me >> read ROMs via a parallel port. [...] > That would be of interest to me. Okay, I'll see if I can't put together a schematic. > Also of interest would be something similar that would allow writing > to a RAM chip that would appear as read-only to an 8-bit target > system. I have *lots* of TTL on hand here... :-) I did that, once. I have a TVI955 (what would now be called a dumb terminal, but in its time was called a smart terminal). It includes three ROMs. One is the terminal firmware, one is a character generator, and one is a user-supplied firmware (there's an escape sequence in the standard firmware that jumps to the user-supplied firmeware). I once put together a simple game that ran entirely in the terminal, in the user-supplied-firmware ROM.... I pulled the character-generator ROM and replaced it with flying wires to a breadboard on which I had a similar amount of RAM, plus logic to allow a host to write to it via a serial line. This gave me downloadable characters. It wasn't a very good setup; something about it (the flying wires, at a guess) produced lots of read errors, appearing as snow on the screen. And the way the host wrote to it was cycle-stealing; while the host was writing, the read circuits got garbage - 0xff, or the data being written, probably - which produced more artifacts on the screen. Definitely not suitable for firmware, for which read errors would be fatal, but tolerable for hacking around with character bitmaps. Unfortunately that breadboard circuit has been torn down long since. But I still have the ROM-reader circuit; I'll put together a schematic and parts list for that and drop a note here when it's done. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Sep 3 12:07:20 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 18:07:20 +0100 Subject: British Computers. In-Reply-To: <01fc01c7ede2$9b90fa30$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA53@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local><46D817C8.5090203@dunnington.plus.com> <00c501c7edd1$2ff4d230$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <01fc01c7ede2$9b90fa30$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <46DC3F48.5070505@yahoo.co.uk> Ensor wrote: > >> Transam (the Tuscan) > > > They produced at least one other (8080 based) machine prior > >to the Tuscan, but for the life of me I cannot remember what > >it was called.... > > Ah, the "Triton"! I knew it would come back to me. :-) Quite by chance I stumbled across an ETI magazine today which announced the system on the front cover as the "ETI Triton"; I didn't have time to read the article itself, but found some more literature which said that the designer created the machine for "Transam and ETI", as though it were some sort of joint venture. I've set the magazine to one side at the museum; I'll have to have a proper read of the article when I get chance. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Sep 3 12:13:39 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 18:13:39 +0100 Subject: British Computers. In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA66@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA66@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <46DC40C3.4000705@yahoo.co.uk> Rod Smallwood wrote: [BP stuff] > Well that's interesting.... > How much of it will be running? Well the aim is for as much as possible; I suspect we can manage 95% for the machines actually set up on display, but then there'll probably be other things on shelves or incomplete so that people can see their internals etc. Not 95% at once, of course - but 95% capable of running whenever the relevant people who know how to operate and look after them are on site :-) From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 3 12:32:43 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 10:32:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: British Computers. In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA6B@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA6B@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <20070903103107.A72117@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 3 Sep 2007, Rod Smallwood wrote: > I think the Blakes 7 computer may have been called ZEN. > ORAC on Blakes 7 was a device that could predict the future. "What qualifies as a computer?" Zen and Orac were both computers, although with different characteristics and personalities, and emphasis at different times in the epic. From nickandlori at charter.net Mon Sep 3 12:34:16 2007 From: nickandlori at charter.net (Nick) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 12:34:16 -0500 Subject: big load of crap in St.Louis, MO References: <38263.5386.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com><51ea77730709012029p645f047eo22b42f3ba15e6e86@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <007801c7ee50$a73c74e0$6401a8c0@nickscomputer> > On Sep 1, 2007, at 9:29 PM, Jason T wrote: > >> >> I guess according to his rules it's already gone (there's a 1 penny >> bid.) Too bad, there are a few interesting machines there. > > Yeah, that was pretty stupid. I would have paid more than a penny and > picked up the equipment as well. We didn't have much time, did we? > > Paul > These computers were given to me over the years, selling them off didn't seem right. I've found that eBay auctions with local pickup only works better than craigslist or freecycle, both of which I've tried with these. Nick From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 12:40:28 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 12:40:28 -0500 Subject: big load of crap in St.Louis, MO In-Reply-To: <007801c7ee50$a73c74e0$6401a8c0@nickscomputer> References: <38263.5386.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> <51ea77730709012029p645f047eo22b42f3ba15e6e86@mail.gmail.com> <007801c7ee50$a73c74e0$6401a8c0@nickscomputer> Message-ID: <51ea77730709031040n58af5e67n3e48e56494c1eafd@mail.gmail.com> On 9/3/07, Nick wrote: > > These computers were given to me over the years, selling them off didn't > seem right. I've found that eBay auctions with local pickup only works > better than craigslist or freecycle, both of which I've tried with these. Ebay is certainly better as far as getting the word out (and this list, of course :) Hey, didn't I drive down and pick up an Iris system from you a few years ago? From lproven at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 12:50:49 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 18:50:49 +0100 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <575131af0709031050n7c70399dp17c0cdbb214e51fa@mail.gmail.com> On 01/09/07, Chris M wrote: > I know nothing about AIX or it's associated hardware > (oh ok I know it's made by IBM). I know little more > about HP-UX. All I know is I want a box/boxes I can > run this stuph on. This is a continual plea and the > cry of my heart :(. I know there's some of this stuph > out there for me. Question is how do I get it. Thus I > turn to y'all. Please help. Please... I've been offered 2 or 3 free RS/6000 machines over the years. Turned 'em down - not exotic or inherently interesting enough to pique my collecting urge. I should think old/slow ones would be cheap enough on eBay, though. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 13:00:38 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 19:00:38 +0100 Subject: British Computers. In-Reply-To: <20070903103107.A72117@shell.lmi.net> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA6B@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <20070903103107.A72117@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <575131af0709031100w305efa9exae348aa9c434ce43@mail.gmail.com> On 03/09/07, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 3 Sep 2007, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > I think the Blakes 7 computer may have been called ZEN. > > ORAC on Blakes 7 was a device that could predict the future. > > "What qualifies as a computer?" > > Zen and Orac were both computers, although with different characteristics > and personalities, and emphasis at different times in the epic. And, IIRC, "Slave" at a late stage. (And I wasn't even a particular fan of Blake's 7, tho' I always rated it above Dr Who.) All voiced by Peter Tuddenham, AIR. Died just this July, aged 88. :?( -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From innfoclassics at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 13:01:59 2007 From: innfoclassics at gmail.com (Paxton Hoag) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 11:01:59 -0700 Subject: Quay 900 (generic S-100) systems available in Denver In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > The terminals look interesting; are they part of the deal? The terminal on the right looks like a Soroc 120. Could the one on the left be a Soroc 140, the keyboard is different..... There are probably a lot less of these around than the S100 mainframe. PaX -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 3 13:19:53 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 11:19:53 -0700 Subject: British Computers. In-Reply-To: <20070903103107.A72117@shell.lmi.net> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA6B@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local>, <20070903103107.A72117@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <46DBEDD9.9540.1003F5B2@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Sep 2007 at 10:32, Fred Cisin wrote: > "What qualifies as a computer?" > > Zen and Orac were both computers, although with different characteristics > and personalities, and emphasis at different times in the epic. ...and let's not forget Holly; although I suspect now we're getting into the difference between AI and computer. (Very sorry for the OT posting, Jay) Cheers, Chuck From nickandlori at charter.net Mon Sep 3 13:37:12 2007 From: nickandlori at charter.net (Nick) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 13:37:12 -0500 Subject: big load of crap in St.Louis, MO References: <38263.5386.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com><51ea77730709012029p645f047eo22b42f3ba15e6e86@mail.gmail.com><007801c7ee50$a73c74e0$6401a8c0@nickscomputer> <51ea77730709031040n58af5e67n3e48e56494c1eafd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <001401c7ee59$7156ea50$6401a8c0@nickscomputer> >> These computers were given to me over the years, selling them off didn't >> seem right. I've found that eBay auctions with local pickup only works >> better than craigslist or freecycle, both of which I've tried with these. > > Ebay is certainly better as far as getting the word out (and this > list, of course :) > > Hey, didn't I drive down and pick up an Iris system from you a few years > ago? > Yep, that one sold for $0.06 since I let it run its course. My wife had never been happier to see anything leave the house, it was a monster. Nick From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Sep 3 13:44:32 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 11:44:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <575131af0709031050n7c70399dp17c0cdbb214e51fa@mail.gmail.com> from Liam Proven at "Sep 3, 7 06:50:49 pm" Message-ID: <200709031844.l83IiX6K013312@floodgap.com> > On 01/09/07, Chris M wrote: > > I know nothing about AIX or it's associated hardware > > (oh ok I know it's made by IBM). I know little more > > about HP-UX. All I know is I want a box/boxes I can > > run this stuph on. This is a continual plea and the > > cry of my heart :(. I know there's some of this stuph > > out there for me. Question is how do I get it. Thus I > > turn to y'all. Please help. Please... > > I've been offered 2 or 3 free RS/6000 machines over the years. Turned > 'em down - not exotic or inherently interesting enough to pique my > collecting urge. > > I should think old/slow ones would be cheap enough on eBay, though. If you want an interesting/exotic AIX machine, I think the Apple Network Servers will fill the bill. They only run their tweaked version of AIX 4 (you can coerce them into running Linux or NetBSD, but that's dull, man!), they're really nice looking machines and they are cantankerous enough to be fun to mess with. Most people dump them when they find out they won't run Mac OS (or at least won't run without a lot of extremely tedious work, and then won't run well). This E-mail comes to you from an ANS 500 with a 200MHz card, which has been my favourite ornery beast since 1998 and has run continuously since then. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "The ants are my friends/They're blowing in the wind" ---------------------- From rogpugh at mac.com Mon Sep 3 13:52:43 2007 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 19:52:43 +0100 Subject: Belgian computers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20397e214feb252eef01bafcbced0089@mac.com> AGFA made some computer equipment for its digital printing and PrePress equipment. UNIX derived language running on 2 or 3 paralleled 68040 or powerPC boards. These were fitted into heavy metal cases with grey fronts. No Monitor or keyboard, you hooked up a terminal to a serial port AGFA are based outside of Antwerp > I have the opportunity to travel to Gent, Belgium, in about a month, > and with all the recent talk of British computers, I wanted to ask the > list if anyone knows if there were ever any Belgian-made computers. > I'm mostly interested in 1980s micros, but any sort of machines would > be germane. > > -ethan > From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 14:03:05 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 14:03:05 -0500 Subject: big load of crap in St.Louis, MO In-Reply-To: <001401c7ee59$7156ea50$6401a8c0@nickscomputer> References: <38263.5386.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> <51ea77730709012029p645f047eo22b42f3ba15e6e86@mail.gmail.com> <007801c7ee50$a73c74e0$6401a8c0@nickscomputer> <51ea77730709031040n58af5e67n3e48e56494c1eafd@mail.gmail.com> <001401c7ee59$7156ea50$6401a8c0@nickscomputer> Message-ID: <51ea77730709031203s72fb6af1tf6661dd560821db4@mail.gmail.com> On 9/3/07, Nick wrote: > > Hey, didn't I drive down and pick up an Iris system from you a few years > > ago? > > > > Yep, that one sold for $0.06 since I let it run its course. My wife had > never been happier to see anything leave the house, it was a monster. It's still downstairs, still nearly immobile :) I never got a console up on it, and then it sat for a while 'til a friend bought a Crimson with a dead PSU, and the Iris became a donor. Someday I'll get around to taking another crack at it. From dm561 at torfree.net Mon Sep 3 13:20:23 2007 From: dm561 at torfree.net (M H Stein) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 15:20:23 -0300 Subject: The Don Maslin Software Archive Message-ID: <01C7EE3E.1D2203E0@MSE_D03> Date: Sun, 2 Sep 2007 03:16:33 -0400 From: "Christopher Feeney" Subject: The Don Maslin Software Archive To: Message-ID: <000001c7ed31$31617740$942465c0$@rr.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >I'm sure you hate this question, but did anything ever happen with Don >Maslin's disk collection? I spoke with and exchanged disks with Don over >the years and just tonight learned of his death. I'm looking for the MS-DOS 2.11 bootdisk for the Sanyo MBC 555-2 ------------------------------------ I should have a Teledisk image somewhere that I got from Don a few years back. Email me off-list so I'll be reminded when I get back to the office in a few days. mike From rogpugh at mac.com Mon Sep 3 14:55:23 2007 From: rogpugh at mac.com (Roger Pugh) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 20:55:23 +0100 Subject: Belgian computers? In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA6A@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA6A@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <1295698f86f39db8f66e1b7c6a4c6ac3@mac.com> On 3 Sep 2007, at 06:33, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Not as far as I know, but BARCO are a big Belgian maker of TV's and > monitors. > They may have been involved. > > Rod > BARCO were big with Air traffic control systems i think. From scheefj at netscape.net Mon Sep 3 15:04:00 2007 From: scheefj at netscape.net (scheefj at netscape.net) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 16:04:00 -0400 Subject: building a machine room In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46DC68B0.4050309@netscape.net> Richard, Some thoughts: * Cooling requirements can be adjusted based on how many machines are running at the same time and for how long. * Winter cooling needs may be nill, or even undesireable. * Dehumidification is probably more important to the collection than heating or cooling. My "machine room" is a section of the basement - a naturally cool place except during the hottest, most humid days of summer. I run a simple dehumidifier as needed during the summer and leave the door open to the upstairs to allow heat to rise. In winter the machines contribute to keeping the basement a little warmer. My running machines are 2-3 PC-based servers plus a microVax and occasionally 1-2 machines under test. This is closer to a "server garden" than what you want to run. But cooling may be less of a problem if continuous operation is not the goal. Jim Richard wrote: > In article <68073390 at web.de>, > Pierre Gebhardt writes: > > >> in order to get another impression of what it means to build a machine ro= >> om, have a look >> at Bernd Ulmann's website: www.vaxman.de >> > > That was an interesting read, thanks! > From lproven at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 15:13:24 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 21:13:24 +0100 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <200709031844.l83IiX6K013312@floodgap.com> References: <575131af0709031050n7c70399dp17c0cdbb214e51fa@mail.gmail.com> <200709031844.l83IiX6K013312@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <575131af0709031313n4e253299rf657ba86981f044f@mail.gmail.com> On 03/09/07, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > On 01/09/07, Chris M wrote: > > > I know nothing about AIX or it's associated hardware > > > (oh ok I know it's made by IBM). I know little more > > > about HP-UX. All I know is I want a box/boxes I can > > > run this stuph on. This is a continual plea and the > > > cry of my heart :(. I know there's some of this stuph > > > out there for me. Question is how do I get it. Thus I > > > turn to y'all. Please help. Please... > > > > I've been offered 2 or 3 free RS/6000 machines over the years. Turned > > 'em down - not exotic or inherently interesting enough to pique my > > collecting urge. > > > > I should think old/slow ones would be cheap enough on eBay, though. > > If you want an interesting/exotic AIX machine, I think the Apple Network > Servers will fill the bill. They only run their tweaked version of AIX 4 > (you can coerce them into running Linux or NetBSD, but that's dull, man!), > they're really nice looking machines and they are cantankerous enough to > be fun to mess with. Most people dump them when they find out they won't > run Mac OS (or at least won't run without a lot of extremely tedious work, > and then won't run well). > > This E-mail comes to you from an ANS 500 with a 200MHz card, which has > been my favourite ornery beast since 1998 and has run continuously since > then. Oooh, that's true! I forgot about those! Yes, if someone offered me one of those, I'd take their arm off! :?) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From halarewich at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 15:29:26 2007 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 13:29:26 -0700 Subject: holy crap, another Cat on ePay! In-Reply-To: <497194.11193.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> References: <497194.11193.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6d6501090709031329p744b19cbt99e53402ea6fd41a@mail.gmail.com> The canon cat on ebay sold for $788.89 not 2 shabby On 8/30/07, Chris M wrote: > > well it is summer time. The time when oftentimes you > can find bargains on eBay. Remember though...the last > one ended an order of magnitude higher then the > current bid. It's bound to go considerably higher. > Now that I'm back in Joisy for a bit, I'm going to > crack open my Cat hopefully, to get a gander at it's > innards. Problem: that's my old bedroom, and all the > other *cats* spent the winter in there. Place is > loaded w/fleas LOL LOL. I'm not supposed to go in > there at all! > > --- dwight elvey wrote: > > > > > > From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com> > AND NO PAYMENTS > > NECESSARY UNTIL 2008! WOOHOO!> > > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-CANON-CAT-WORK-PROCESSOR-Jef-Raskin_W0QQitemZ110162860314QQihZ001QQcategoryZ1247QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem > > > > > I might be selling mine soon. Need a house. Tired > > of> sleeping in the car LOL LOL LOL.> > > Hi > > You might want to hold off for a while. I suspect > > that the market is > > reaching saturation. There just aren't that many > > that are expecting > > to pay $600+ for a Cat. > > For those that are interested in hacking the Cat or > > writing another > > printer driver as I've done, look at the Cat info on > > the DigiBarn > > web page. I've been doing other hacking since then > > for anyone > > that is interested. I've found the video RAM and I'm > > thinking of creating > > some graphics functions. Right now I just have a > > simple XOR to > > each bit but I realize that a line drawing routine > > would be good as > > well. > > If someone on this group wants to talk offline > > about the Cat, > > let me know. It is a remarkable computer. > > Dwight > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > See what you're getting into?before you go there > > > http://newlivehotmail.com/?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_migration_HM_viral_preview_0507 > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________Ready > for the edge of your seat? > Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV. > http://tv.yahoo.com/ > From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 3 15:46:54 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 13:46:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <200709031844.l83IiX6K013312@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <216832.50596.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> --- Cameron Kaiser wrote: > If you want an interesting/exotic AIX machine, I > think the Apple Network > Servers will fill the bill. They only run their > tweaked version of AIX 4 So Macs have been IBM compatilbe ;) for quite some time I see! ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better Heartthrob. Get better relationship answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545433 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 3 15:49:14 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 13:49:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <575131af0709031313n4e253299rf657ba86981f044f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <714027.54992.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> --- Liam Proven wrote: > Yes, if someone offered me one of those, I'd take > their arm off! :?) Nah, not me. I'm too much of a die hard. Frankly can't even say why I'd like to explore the more *esoteric* UNIX flavas out there (especially considering the "bad press" I've been getting regarding UX, AIX,..). Correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't the first machine to run AIX the IBM/RT's? Googling... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 3 15:59:05 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 13:59:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 5362 Message-ID: <940761.60400.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> There are 1 of these on eBay: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=140152462361&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=004 IIRC would go hand in hand w/the terminal/controller thing someone had for sale on here in the last couple of weeks. the 5364 looks cool. Needs a 5170 - no more, no less - for the front end. Even looks like an AT. Not enough krazee Big Blue stuph floating around if my opinion means anything. IINM, I spoke to a gentleman - YO DUDE! ;) - who was working on a "System/36 on a chip". Just way too groovy. Stupid Cat's final bid didn't even break 8 bills :( ____________________________________________________________________________________ Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. http://mobile.yahoo.com/go?refer=1GNXIC From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Sep 3 16:05:57 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 17:05:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: eprom "dumping" In-Reply-To: <200709031529.LAA12541@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <872690.79541.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> <200708290759.DAA25279@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200709011632.25286.rtellason@verizon.net> <200709031529.LAA12541@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200709032109.RAA14346@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >>> I cobbled together a breadboard of TTL (mostly latches/counters and >>> muxes) which, with suitable software support on the host, lets me >>> read ROMs via a parallel port. [...] >> That would be of interest to me. > Okay, I'll see if I can't put together a schematic. On ftp.rodents.montreal.qc.ca there's a directory /mouse/misc/schematics/ that contains, among other things, parport-rom-reader.pbm and parport-rom-reader.txt (the former is the schematic proper; the latter, accompanying text). If you'd like it but can't handle PBM files, let me know what you can handle and I'll see what I can do. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 16:12:27 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 16:12:27 -0500 Subject: IBM 5362 In-Reply-To: <940761.60400.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> References: <940761.60400.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <51ea77730709031412s2a48517fy26482a6e63253cb3@mail.gmail.com> On 9/3/07, Chris M wrote: > There are 1 of these on eBay: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=140152462361&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=004 I want! Oh, it's in Oklahoma. It's got to weight >150lbs, no? From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Sep 3 16:12:09 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 17:12:09 -0400 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <575131af0709031050n7c70399dp17c0cdbb214e51fa@mail.gmail.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709031050n7c70399dp17c0cdbb214e51fa@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200709031712.09953.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 03 September 2007 13:50, Liam Proven wrote: > On 01/09/07, Chris M wrote: > > I know nothing about AIX or it's associated hardware > > (oh ok I know it's made by IBM). I know little more > > about HP-UX. All I know is I want a box/boxes I can > > run this stuph on. This is a continual plea and the > > cry of my heart :(. I know there's some of this stuph > > out there for me. Question is how do I get it. Thus I > > turn to y'all. Please help. Please... > > I've been offered 2 or 3 free RS/6000 machines over the years. Turned > 'em down - not exotic or inherently interesting enough to pique my > collecting urge. POWER is an inherently interesting processor architecture (especially the 6-chip versions), and the machines are built like a tank - even the models with a plastic case are practically bulletproof. POWER is amazingly zippy for the relative clock speed, especially for floating point ops... And, AIX, well, if you've ever tried to admin an AIX box, I don't see how you could say it wasn't "unique" especially among UNIX variants. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Sep 3 16:18:30 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 14:18:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <200709031712.09953.pat@computer-refuge.org> from Patrick Finnegan at "Sep 3, 7 05:12:09 pm" Message-ID: <200709032118.l83LIUei013478@floodgap.com> > And, AIX, well, if you've ever tried to admin an AIX box, I don't see > how you could say it wasn't "unique" especially among UNIX variants. Ain't that the truth. (sysadmin on AIX 3.2.5 and 4.1 systems before I got my MD, and still maintain my own AIX boxen) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Really???? WOW!!!!! I'm shallow TOO!!!!! ----------------------------------- From lproven at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 16:20:21 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 22:20:21 +0100 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <200709031712.09953.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709031050n7c70399dp17c0cdbb214e51fa@mail.gmail.com> <200709031712.09953.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <575131af0709031420r661c9d9bl560ffd98d1c73533@mail.gmail.com> On 03/09/07, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Monday 03 September 2007 13:50, Liam Proven wrote: > > On 01/09/07, Chris M wrote: > > > I know nothing about AIX or it's associated hardware > > > (oh ok I know it's made by IBM). I know little more > > > about HP-UX. All I know is I want a box/boxes I can > > > run this stuph on. This is a continual plea and the > > > cry of my heart :(. I know there's some of this stuph > > > out there for me. Question is how do I get it. Thus I > > > turn to y'all. Please help. Please... > > > > I've been offered 2 or 3 free RS/6000 machines over the years. Turned > > 'em down - not exotic or inherently interesting enough to pique my > > collecting urge. > > POWER is an inherently interesting processor architecture (especially > the 6-chip versions), and the machines are built like a tank - even the > models with a plastic case are practically bulletproof. POWER is > amazingly zippy for the relative clock speed, especially for floating > point ops... I have a number of PowerMacs for that side of things. :?) > And, AIX, well, if you've ever tried to admin an AIX box, I don't see > how you could say it wasn't "unique" especially among UNIX variants. Only done a tiny bit of /very/ basic stuff, but mostly, I only keep machines around that I have some *use* for, unless they're something from my youth that I lusted over, like the Amiga/ST/QL/Archimedes. RS/6000s were impressive but I never really wanted one and I have no conceivable use for one now! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From doc at mdrconsult.com Mon Sep 3 16:24:47 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 16:24:47 -0500 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <200709031712.09953.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709031050n7c70399dp17c0cdbb214e51fa@mail.gmail.com> <200709031712.09953.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <46DC7B9F.2010207@mdrconsult.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > And, AIX, well, if you've ever tried to admin an AIX box, I don't see > how you could say it wasn't "unique" especially among UNIX variants. AIX is Not Unix. Not any more than OS X is Unix. I realize that AIX (and OS X 10.5) *is* UNIX, certified and trademarked, but trying to approach it as one would a traditional unix (HP/UX, Solaris, etc) is a recipe for heartbreak. It's an extremely robust operating system with a very nice POSIX API. Under the covers, it's its very own thing. Doc From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 3 16:25:42 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 14:25:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 5362 In-Reply-To: <51ea77730709031412s2a48517fy26482a6e63253cb3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <293911.27835.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jason T wrote: > On 9/3/07, Chris M wrote: > > There are 1 of these on eBay: > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=140152462361&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=004 > > I want! > > Oh, it's in Oklahoma. It's got to weight >150lbs, > no? I just had a shipment (SoCal > NE PA). 150 lbs., about 90$. FedEx. BE WARNED. They routinely, gratuitously, by necessity it seems beat the living hell out of everything. You NEED to have the person pack it well. Make that VERY WELL. I can pack something that could withstand an H-bomb. Others typically don't show the care :(. Granted this wasn't an old puter, but a piece of cast iron that arguably was worth 10x what I payed for it (300$). I was prepared for the worst, though it just might not turn out so bad. You gotta learn as you live. Perhaps someone near the auction can buy it, store it for a bit, if you're short of cash. I like to hold off on long distance shipments as much as possible. I keep telling myself stuff like that will turn up nearer to *home*, and will be free :). Sometimes it does. But you can't count on this stuff being available forevermore. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 16:34:27 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 17:34:27 -0400 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <575131af0709031420r661c9d9bl560ffd98d1c73533@mail.gmail.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709031050n7c70399dp17c0cdbb214e51fa@mail.gmail.com> <200709031712.09953.pat@computer-refuge.org> <575131af0709031420r661c9d9bl560ffd98d1c73533@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > I have a number of PowerMacs for that side of things. :?) The PowerPCs in Macs are the retarded little brothers of the real POWER processors. -- Will From lproven at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 16:36:59 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 22:36:59 +0100 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <46DC7B9F.2010207@mdrconsult.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709031050n7c70399dp17c0cdbb214e51fa@mail.gmail.com> <200709031712.09953.pat@computer-refuge.org> <46DC7B9F.2010207@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <575131af0709031436l111ba74co16f5e2a66a913b66@mail.gmail.com> On 03/09/07, Doc Shipley wrote: > Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > > And, AIX, well, if you've ever tried to admin an AIX box, I don't see > > how you could say it wasn't "unique" especially among UNIX variants. > > AIX is Not Unix. Not any more than OS X is Unix. > > I realize that AIX (and OS X 10.5) *is* UNIX, certified and > trademarked, but trying to approach it as one would a traditional unix > (HP/UX, Solaris, etc) is a recipe for heartbreak. > > It's an extremely robust operating system with a very nice POSIX API. > Under the covers, it's its very own thing. I remember IBM proudly proclaiming, around the time of AIX 3, that "we've taken Unix and added 3 million lines of code to it". IBM fans looked interested; Unix fans looked faintly sick. But I have a tiny bit of exposure to AIX. It is a Unix, all right, from my experience. It's got lots of extensions, it has SMIT and things, but it's more like Unix than, say, QNX or BeOS or something, OSs which also have a bash (or sh-like) shell and POSIX. AIX is real Unix underneath: I think it was an AT&T kernel originally, it's got the classic filesystem layout, etc. etc. Mac OS X is if anything more unlike classic Unix in the canonical sense - it's Mach with a honking great kernel-space Unix layer taken from FreeBSD. I'd say there are 3 or 4 families of "Unix": - direct lineal descendants: Solaris, SCO OpenServer, HP/UX, AIX (and the whole BSD-Lite branch is a spinoff of the direct line: Free/Net/Open BSD, Dragonfly BSD, but also 386BSD, BSD/ix, BSD-OS and other long dead forms) - direct clones or intentionally-compatible: Linux is the best-known, Minix, but OS X also qualifies, & OSF/1 did too (and thus its scion Tru64), - things that aren't remotely Unix-like underneath but find it convenient to sport a layer offering some degree of Unix-compatibility: QNX, BeOS/Haiku, OpenVMS, Windows NT, some IBM offerings, I believe. Does that seem fair? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 16:41:08 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 22:41:08 +0100 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709031050n7c70399dp17c0cdbb214e51fa@mail.gmail.com> <200709031712.09953.pat@computer-refuge.org> <575131af0709031420r661c9d9bl560ffd98d1c73533@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0709031441w606c7373g32ad9614ce8efaf2@mail.gmail.com> On 03/09/07, William Donzelli wrote: > > I have a number of PowerMacs for that side of things. :?) > > The PowerPCs in Macs are the retarded little brothers of the real > POWER processors. Arguably, this may be so, but I'd submit two rather important riders on to that. [1] Whereas this was the case with the 601/603/604 and so on, I'm not sure it's really true any more. The "G5" is pretty much a 2-core POWER4, AIUI [2] All the interesting apps and the desktop-relevant stuff is on PowerPC. Specifically, on OS X. Even a 10y old G3 Mac with OSX makes a pleasant and usable machine for the Web today and for day-to-day use. I can't think of a lot of use for a 10yo RS/6000 except as a server - as a workstation running Motif or something, it wouldn't be much use on the desktop today. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 3 16:44:03 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 14:44:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 5362 In-Reply-To: <51ea77730709031412s2a48517fy26482a6e63253cb3@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <9050.37820.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jason T wrote: > On 9/3/07, Chris M wrote: > > There are 1 of these on eBay: > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=140152462361&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=004 > > I want! > > Oh, it's in Oklahoma. It's got to weight >150lbs, > no? Before I forget, and as I'm sure most already know, someone's been trying to give away a 5360 on marketplace.vintage.org for sometime. I don't feel like logging in, so I can't "see everything", so I don't know if it's still available, but I imagine it would be. I bet Sridhar already has one, so you won't have to fight him for it LOL LOL LOL. Can't remember where it was located, I want to say Connecticut, but I could very well be wrong. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. http://travel.yahoo.com/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 3 16:45:45 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 14:45:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <575131af0709031441w606c7373g32ad9614ce8efaf2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <479059.42208.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> so what sort of development tools are available for these? Uh, FLAYX I made up, so don't go looking for it LOL ____________________________________________________________________________________ Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Sep 3 16:47:31 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 15:47:31 -0600 Subject: IBM 5362 In-Reply-To: <293911.27835.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> References: <293911.27835.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46DC80F3.8080308@jetnet.ab.ca> Chris M wrote: > I just had a shipment (SoCal > NE PA). 150 lbs., > about 90$. FedEx. BE WARNED. They routinely, > gratuitously, by necessity it seems beat the living > hell out of everything. You NEED to have the person > pack it well. Make that VERY WELL. I can pack > something that could withstand an H-bomb. Others > typically don't show the care :(. > Granted this wasn't an old puter, but a piece of cast > iron that arguably was worth 10x what I payed for it > (300$). I was prepared for the worst, though it just > might not turn out so bad. You gotta learn as you > live. Well what can it be that is 150 lbs, and worth $3K. Well it can't be a classic bath-tub ( the best kind ). You could always ship by Greyhound. Ben alias Woodelf. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Mon Sep 3 16:53:40 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 14:53:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 5362 In-Reply-To: <46DC80F3.8080308@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <315146.83746.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> --- woodelf wrote: > Well what can it be that is 150 lbs, and worth $3K. > Well it can't be a classic bath-tub ( the best kind > ). > You could always ship by Greyhound. > Ben alias Woodelf. Namely a German made metal lathe. Missing a few parts hehe. But any competent machinist would tell you the most important part is the bed anyway. I would have loved to ship my keester out there. But truthfully I probably wouldn't need a return ticket. Not quite ready for that yet though. Maybe in a year+ ____________________________________________________________________________________ Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/ From grant at stockly.com Mon Sep 3 15:30:54 2007 From: grant at stockly.com (Grant Stockly) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 12:30:54 -0800 Subject: Calling Kurt Klemm Message-ID: <0JNT00KXMDUJ2T60@msgmmp-1.gci.net> Sorry about the personal message here but I've exhausted the means to contact him. If you get this please try to send me a message on my website: http://www.stockly.com/forums/index.php I can't seem to send you e-mail! Grant From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 3 18:40:34 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 16:40:34 -0700 Subject: IBM 5362 In-Reply-To: <46DC80F3.8080308@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <293911.27835.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com>, <46DC80F3.8080308@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <46DC3902.18218.11298B39@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Sep 2007 at 15:47, woodelf wrote: > Well what can it be that is 150 lbs, and worth $3K. > Well it can't be a classic bath-tub ( the best kind ). > You could always ship by Greyhound. > Ben alias Woodelf. I've had good results with Amtrak Express for medium-to-large packages; Greyhound isn't bad either. Cheers, Chuck From hugh at blemings.org Mon Sep 3 18:50:10 2007 From: hugh at blemings.org (Hugh Blemings) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 09:50:10 +1000 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) Message-ID: <20070904095010.f73591f2.hugh@blemings.org> Hi, Meant to include this in my earlier post - Amongst the other "treasure" I've got a decent sized assortment of old Motorola, Fairchild, Texas Instruments, Ferranti and National Semiconductor Databooks. These are all for chips - analog parts, ECL, MECL, TTL, CMOS logic, Special Function Devices, Memories etc. Date range late 70's to early '90s. If anyone knows of a better home for these than the paper recycling please let me know. My sense is that most of the data is available on the 'net now on the various archives. Thanks! Cheers, Hugh From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Sep 3 18:53:20 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 19:53:20 -0400 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <575131af0709031420r661c9d9bl560ffd98d1c73533@mail.gmail.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <200709031712.09953.pat@computer-refuge.org> <575131af0709031420r661c9d9bl560ffd98d1c73533@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200709031953.20505.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 03 September 2007 17:20, Liam Proven wrote: > > POWER is an inherently interesting processor architecture (especially > > the 6-chip versions), and the machines are built like a tank - even the > > models with a plastic case are practically bulletproof. POWER is > > amazingly zippy for the relative clock speed, especially for floating > > point ops... > > I have a number of PowerMacs for that side of things. :?) Are those on-topic in here? I just acquired one not too long ago... Dunno what I'm gonna do with it yet, I've never had anything to do with those machines. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 3 17:56:34 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 23:56:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: British Computers. In-Reply-To: <46D931E7.7050506@machineroom.info> from "James" at Sep 1, 7 10:33:27 am Message-ID: > >> Whitechaple Computer Works (MG1 32016-based workstation, Hitec > >> MIPS-based workstations) > > > > Ah, that's the one I was trying to remember. I know someone who has > > one, or perhaps two. Indeed you do -- me. I have a complete MG1 (with original mouse, monitor, etc, it even has the ISA slot backplane in it). I also have a Hitec, but not in the original case. The Hitecs have a motherboard that's the same form factor as a PC/ZT motherboard (nad which use a PC/AT PSU). The board contains the disk controllers (floppy, SCSI, ST412), serial ports, keyboard interfcace, etc. There are 8 slots at the normal spacing. 3 ISA slots, and 5 DIN41612s. The latter take the processor card, video card, and RAM cards. I have a complete machine, and many spare boards, but it's in a PC tower case. > > > > And: > > (from Jim Austins collection) : Elliot & Ferranti I thought we were excluding larger machines. > > Psion (organiser etc.) > > Whitecross (WX9xxx & later). Massively parallel transputer (and later > x86) SQL machines. Doesn't do much without a Sun frontend but the > machine itself was designed & manufactured in the UK. Sadly, the > transputers it uses are ST rather than Inmos. I have one as a pet :-) What's the difference? > > Flite (68K training systems). Still going too! SOmewhere I even have their 68000 cross assembler ROM for the BBC micro... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 3 18:20:34 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 00:20:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: Reviving DEC RX01 power supply In-Reply-To: <1188785440.46db6d20ebe25@www.jblaser.org> from "J Blaser" at Sep 2, 7 08:10:40 pm Message-ID: > > I've got a H771-A (120V/60Hz) that's acting up on me. Part > of an old PDP-11/03 that I'm trying to get back on its feet. > As I've done with 4 or 5 other RX units in the past couple > of years, after cleaning it up and reforming the capacitors, > but before plugging everything together, I wanted to check > output voltages. I'm sure glad I did because this guy is > not normal! > > Where you usually see 24V, I'm getting 42V! And the so- > called 'Raw DC' which is normally around 10V is 17V. At IIRC, the 'raw DC' is unregulated, just rectified and smoothed from the transformer. As is the 24V line. Both are about 1.7* what they should be. It's gettign late, so I'll not find the prints tonight. But IIRC, the transformer in this supply is a ferroresonant one, and that's what stabilises the 'raw' and 24V lines. What happens if the capacitor hung off that is defective? > least the +/-5V lines are more or less correct at +5.1V and > -5.3V, respectively. > > I need some help here. I've checked the printset on this, > and frankly, this analog stuff is so much voodoo (to me). > I get lost pretty quickly unless the circuit is simple, > say, like a flashlight. Anyway, I've checked a number of > voltages and voltage drops at various places[1] that I > thought might lead me to something, but I can't say that > I'm any wiser now. I'm sure this is fixable, even by me, > IF I can locate out the faulty component(s). I suspect the last part is very ture. Actually replacing the faulty part is the easy bit :-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 3 18:25:16 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 00:25:16 +0100 (BST) Subject: British Computers. In-Reply-To: <00c501c7edd1$2ff4d230$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> from "Ensor" at Sep 3, 7 03:21:50 am Message-ID: > > Hi, > > > Tangerine (the Microtan) > > >.... > > Oric (offshoot of Tangerine, made Oric-1 and Atmos) > > I'm 99% sure that Tangering = Oric. ISTR that they changed their name from > Tangerine to Oric when they launched the Oric 1? IIRC, the Tiger was also a Tangerine design (although made by HH electronics). > > Memotech > > Originally a maker of add-ons for the ZX-81, RAM packs etc. Great machines > IMHO. I was given one recently. The mechancial design in beautiful, the case is mafe from 2 anodised aluminium extrusions and 2 end plates. To get inside you remove one screw at each side and the top extrusion (carrying the keyboard) hinges up. If you want to go further, unplug the keyboard cable, remove the end plate at one end (2 more screws), then slide the extrusions apart. Is the manaul for these machines on the web anywhere? I remmeber seeing it on paper many years ago, and IIRC it contained not only a schematic, but also the PAL equations for the 14L4 on the logic board. -tony From paul at pgdeng.co.uk Mon Sep 3 17:33:26 2007 From: paul at pgdeng.co.uk (paul drescher) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 23:33:26 +0100 Subject: trs 80 model 16B Message-ID: <46DC8BB6.5050402@pgdeng.co.uk> Is there anyone who can help me? I am needing an 8" boot disc of suitable software, to breathe life into my 16B monster! I can't believe there is no 8" disk's available? I have made a suitable cable to connect a 5,25 drive, so any suitable software will do, please contact me if you think you can help. regards paul I use BullGuard Spamfilter to keep my inbox clean. It is completely free: www.bullguard.com/freespamfilter From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Mon Sep 3 18:59:34 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 19:59:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: <20070904095010.f73591f2.hugh@blemings.org> References: <20070904095010.f73591f2.hugh@blemings.org> Message-ID: <200709040013.UAA15725@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Meant to include this in my earlier post - > Amongst the other "treasure" I've got a decent sized assortment of > old Motorola, Fairchild, Texas Instruments, Ferranti and National > Semiconductor Databooks. These are all for chips - analog parts, > ECL, MECL, TTL, CMOS logic, Special Function Devices, Memories etc. > Date range late 70's to early '90s. Interesting you mention that now. I just today found I have 22 tubes of assorted DIPs. 16 of them I've been able to find enough info to use, if I have a need for them - but there are six more I haven't. I was going to write here and ask if anyone knows where to find specs (including pinouts) for these - I spent some time with google, and even checked bitsavers.org and vt100.net (neither of which seems to have that kind of info - perhaps I missed something?). Specifically, what I have that's a mystery (/ represents a line break): MCM2016HN70 / HID8625 CY7C409A-25PC / USA9225 91714 GAL16V8A / 15LP / L218D16 MC14034B / CP QQ8318 > If anyone knows of a better home for these than the paper recycling > please let me know. I'd like to snag them myself, but I can't help suspecting it would cost an unpleasant amount to get them clear around the globe. > My sense is that most of the data is available on the 'net now on the > various archives. Perhaps, but I cahn't help wondering where. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Sep 3 19:17:49 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 18:17:49 -0600 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: <20070904095010.f73591f2.hugh@blemings.org> References: <20070904095010.f73591f2.hugh@blemings.org> Message-ID: <46DCA42D.8070907@jetnet.ab.ca> Hugh Blemings wrote: > Hi, > > Meant to include this in my earlier post - > > Amongst the other "treasure" I've got a decent sized assortment of old Motorola, Fairchild, Texas Instruments, Ferranti and National Semiconductor Databooks. These are all for chips - analog parts, ECL, MECL, TTL, CMOS logic, Special Function Devices, Memories etc. Date range late 70's to early '90s. > > If anyone knows of a better home for these than the paper recycling please let me know. > > My sense is that most of the data is available on the 'net now on the various archives. Well at 1:13 am I tend not to want to wait for the puter to warm up and connect to find the pin out of a 7400 online from umm yawn where was that site again ... not get your **** bigger . You can find many modern chips but it take a bit a digging to find older chip. Often the database sites you pay to view. > Thanks! > > Cheers, > Hugh Ben alias Woodelf PS. Iv'e got the 7400 pinout downloaded already. :) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Sep 3 19:31:54 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 18:31:54 -0600 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: <200709040013.UAA15725@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <20070904095010.f73591f2.hugh@blemings.org> <200709040013.UAA15725@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <46DCA77A.4090902@jetnet.ab.ca> der Mouse wrote: > Perhaps, but I cahn't help wondering where. Or the same data sheet from a NOW off-line site? The PDF's do add up if you need more than a few parts. What I find more useful is the PDF'ed old magizines and other material out of print long before I was born. Ben alias woodelf From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Sep 3 19:35:20 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 18:35:20 -0600 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: <200709040013.UAA15725@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <20070904095010.f73591f2.hugh@blemings.org> <200709040013.UAA15725@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <46DCA848.4070504@jetnet.ab.ca> der Mouse wrote: > Specifically, what I have that's a mystery (/ represents a line break): > > CY7C409A-25PC cascadable 64 x 8/9 fifo. > > /~\ The ASCII der Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > > > . > From vrs at msn.com Mon Sep 3 19:34:57 2007 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 17:34:57 -0700 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) References: <20070904095010.f73591f2.hugh@blemings.org> <200709040013.UAA15725@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <075101c7ee8b$6c0b6760$6600a8c0@vrsxp> From: "der Mouse": > Specifically, what I have that's a mystery (/ represents a line break): > > MCM2016HN70 / HID8625 > CY7C409A-25PC / USA9225 91714 > GAL16V8A / 15LP / L218D16 > MC14034B / CP QQ8318 I found data sheets for three of those and a description of the fourth at: http://www.datasheetarchive.com/ Vince From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 3 20:28:42 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 18:28:42 -0700 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: <46DCA848.4070504@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20070904095010.f73591f2.hugh@blemings.org>, <200709040013.UAA15725@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA>, <46DCA848.4070504@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <46DC525A.26168.118C8A94@cclist.sydex.com> On 3 Sep 2007 at 19:59, der Mouse wrote: > MCM2016HN70 / HID8625 > CY7C409A-25PC / USA9225 91714 > GAL16V8A / 15LP / L218D16 > MC14034B / CP QQ8318 In no particular order, the MC14304B is a 4000-series CMOS quad "NOR" latch. The MCM2016 is a generic 2Kx8 SRAM, the CY7C409A is a 64x9 FIFO, the GAL16V8A is a CMOS PLD (64x32 arry, registered outputs). The others are a bit of a mystery to me. Cheers, Chuck From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Sep 3 20:53:45 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 21:53:45 -0400 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <575131af0709031441w606c7373g32ad9614ce8efaf2@mail.gmail.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709031441w606c7373g32ad9614ce8efaf2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200709032153.45687.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 03 September 2007 17:41, Liam Proven wrote: > On 03/09/07, William Donzelli wrote: > > > I have a number of PowerMacs for that side of things. :?) > > > > The PowerPCs in Macs are the retarded little brothers of the real > > POWER processors. > > Arguably, this may be so, but I'd submit two rather important riders > on to that. > > [1] Whereas this was the case with the 601/603/604 and so on, I'm not > sure it's really true any more. The "G5" is pretty much a 2-core > POWER4, AIUI As I've read, the 601 is more POWER than the rest of the PPC chips. Still much slower and dumbed down than the proper POWER (non-PC) versions. And you have that backwards, the G5 is 1/2 of a POWER4 chip. I guess a dual-core G5 is close to a POWER4, but it's still lacking some things, like cache. And, the G5 has VMX/Altivec, which the POWER4 doesn't. Mostly, the POWER4 was designed to be a enterprise server grade CPU, and the G5 is designed to be a consumer-grade CPU. There's a lot of trade-offs that they made when designing one vs the other. I guess that a POWER3 is technically also a "PowerPC 630", but no resemblance to the PPC60x series of chips. The POWER5 and POWER6 are quite a bit more interesting than any PowerPC chip. > [2] All the interesting apps and the desktop-relevant stuff is on > PowerPC. Specifically, on OS X. Even a 10y old G3 Mac with OSX makes > a pleasant and usable machine for the Web today and for day-to-day > use. I can't think of a lot of use for a 10yo RS/6000 except as a > server - as a workstation running Motif or something, it wouldn't be > much use on the desktop today. Interesting depends on what you mean by it. POWER has AIX and i5/OS / OS/400. by themselves, much more interesting to me than anything that runs on MacOSX. Of course, I'm "one of those people" who runs Linux on their work-provided PowerMac G5. I just can't seem to get my boss to want to pay $10k for a proper POWER5 workstation from IBM. ;) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Sep 3 20:57:29 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 21:57:29 -0400 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <575131af0709031441w606c7373g32ad9614ce8efaf2@mail.gmail.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709031441w606c7373g32ad9614ce8efaf2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200709032157.29273.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 03 September 2007 17:41, Liam Proven wrote: > I can't think of a lot of use for a 10yo RS/6000 except as a > server - as a workstation running Motif or something, it wouldn't be > much use on the desktop today. I guess I should add, that there are 10-year old RS/6000s (43P models) that run current versions of AIX (5.3), and can run most any OSS you'd want to throw at them. I spend most of my time using konsole (kde tabbed xterm), kmail (IMAP client) and firefox. Beyond that, everything else is mostly just another X-windows or console application. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 22:18:58 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 23:18:58 -0400 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <200709032153.45687.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709031441w606c7373g32ad9614ce8efaf2@mail.gmail.com> <200709032153.45687.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <46DCCEA2.3010903@gmail.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > POWER has AIX and i5/OS / OS/400. by themselves, much more interesting > to me than anything that runs on MacOSX. Of course, I'm "one of those > people" who runs Linux on their work-provided PowerMac G5. I just > can't seem to get my boss to want to pay $10k for a proper POWER5 > workstation from IBM. ;) The POWER5+ workstation on my desk at work costs (retail) a touch more than half that. It's fast, too. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 22:20:10 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 03 Sep 2007 23:20:10 -0400 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <200709032157.29273.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709031441w606c7373g32ad9614ce8efaf2@mail.gmail.com> <200709032157.29273.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <46DCCEEA.9010800@gmail.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> I can't think of a lot of use for a 10yo RS/6000 except as a >> server - as a workstation running Motif or something, it wouldn't be >> much use on the desktop today. > > I guess I should add, that there are 10-year old RS/6000s (43P models) > that run current versions of AIX (5.3), and can run most any OSS you'd > want to throw at them. Hell, we have designers using recent versions of CATIA on 10-year-old RS/6000s. Peace... Sridhar From pat at computer-refuge.org Mon Sep 3 22:24:26 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 23:24:26 -0400 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <46DCCEA2.3010903@gmail.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <200709032153.45687.pat@computer-refuge.org> <46DCCEA2.3010903@gmail.com> Message-ID: <200709032324.26586.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Monday 03 September 2007 23:18, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > POWER has AIX and i5/OS / OS/400. by themselves, much more > > interesting to me than anything that runs on MacOSX. Of course, > > I'm "one of those people" who runs Linux on their work-provided > > PowerMac G5. I just can't seem to get my boss to want to pay $10k > > for a proper POWER5 workstation from IBM. ;) > > The POWER5+ workstation on my desk at work costs (retail) a touch > more than half that. It's fast, too. The Intellistation POWER 285? IBM Web Price for the lowest end model is $8,099: http://www-03.ibm.com/systems/intellistation/power/hardware/285/browse.html If you want a decent dual-core model, list price is $14.074. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Mon Sep 3 23:27:32 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 05:27:32 +0100 Subject: British Computers. References: <200709030421.l834LVcg011952@floodgap.com><20070902213404.N44792@shell.lmi.net> <46DBAF16.6020303@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <001a01c7eeab$e9be0030$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > That's "Orac" :-) And who built "Orac"? :-) TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Mon Sep 3 23:29:08 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 05:29:08 +0100 Subject: British Computers. References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA6B@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <002701c7eeac$22c6d4b0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > I think the Blakes 7 computer may have been called ZEN. >ORAC on Blakes 7 was a device that could predict the future. ZEN was the mainframe, Orac was their laptop.... 8-) TTFN - Pete. From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Sep 3 23:51:31 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 00:51:31 -0400 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <200709032324.26586.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <200709032153.45687.pat@computer-refuge.org> <46DCCEA2.3010903@gmail.com> <200709032324.26586.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <46DCE453.1030009@gmail.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Monday 03 September 2007 23:18, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> Patrick Finnegan wrote: >>> POWER has AIX and i5/OS / OS/400. by themselves, much more >>> interesting to me than anything that runs on MacOSX. Of course, >>> I'm "one of those people" who runs Linux on their work-provided >>> PowerMac G5. I just can't seem to get my boss to want to pay $10k >>> for a proper POWER5 workstation from IBM. ;) >> The POWER5+ workstation on my desk at work costs (retail) a touch >> more than half that. It's fast, too. > > The Intellistation POWER 285? > > IBM Web Price for the lowest end model is $8,099: > http://www-03.ibm.com/systems/intellistation/power/hardware/285/browse.html > > If you want a decent dual-core model, list price is $14.074. System p5-520 + GXT6500P. Peace... Sridhar From bear at typewritten.org Tue Sep 4 00:10:15 2007 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Mon, 3 Sep 2007 22:10:15 -0700 Subject: IBM 5362 In-Reply-To: <940761.60400.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> References: <940761.60400.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <99E94131-6674-4C1E-B220-72C612BD7A5B@typewritten.org> On Sep 3, 2007, at 1:59 PM, Chris M wrote: > the 5364 looks cool. Needs a 5170 - no more, no less - > for the front end. Even looks like an AT. I understand this to be the conventional wisdom on the 5364, but the conventional wisdom is wrong in this case. I have personally used both an original 16k 5150 and a 5170 as a front end to my 5364. I have been in contact with a gentleman who uses a PS/2 8530. The requirements are strict, but not THAT strict. ok bear From doc at mdrconsult.com Tue Sep 4 00:41:14 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 00:41:14 -0500 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <200709032324.26586.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <200709032153.45687.pat@computer-refuge.org> <46DCCEA2.3010903@gmail.com> <200709032324.26586.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <46DCEFFA.1080104@mdrconsult.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Monday 03 September 2007 23:18, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> Patrick Finnegan wrote: >>> POWER has AIX and i5/OS / OS/400. by themselves, much more >>> interesting to me than anything that runs on MacOSX. Of course, >>> I'm "one of those people" who runs Linux on their work-provided >>> PowerMac G5. I just can't seem to get my boss to want to pay $10k >>> for a proper POWER5 workstation from IBM. ;) >> The POWER5+ workstation on my desk at work costs (retail) a touch >> more than half that. It's fast, too. > > The Intellistation POWER 285? > > IBM Web Price for the lowest end model is $8,099: > http://www-03.ibm.com/systems/intellistation/power/hardware/285/browse.html > > If you want a decent dual-core model, list price is $14.074. Yebbut, if you don't need the CATIA-grade graphics, a p5-52x with very nearly the same specs as the IntelliStation can be had for under $5K. Doc From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Mon Sep 3 21:55:58 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 03:55:58 +0100 Subject: British Computers. Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA7B@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> So I can come along sit down and start knocking out some code then? That might cause a crowd to collect. Then something dynamic. Line printers thumping away, Paper tape reader on a long loop. Tape punch doing a Woody Woodpecker. IBM 029 doing verify. Two security guys dragging me out of the building. The visitors would love that!! Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules Richardson Sent: 03 September 2007 18:14 To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: British Computers. Rod Smallwood wrote: [BP stuff] > Well that's interesting.... > How much of it will be running? Well the aim is for as much as possible; I suspect we can manage 95% for the machines actually set up on display, but then there'll probably be other things on shelves or incomplete so that people can see their internals etc. Not 95% at once, of course - but 95% capable of running whenever the relevant people who know how to operate and look after them are on site :-) From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Tue Sep 4 02:48:15 2007 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 09:48:15 +0200 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <714027.54992.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> References: <575131af0709031313n4e253299rf657ba86981f044f@mail.gmail.com> <714027.54992.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070904094815.0c63b513@SirToby.dinner41.local> On Mon, 3 Sep 2007 13:49:14 -0700 (PDT) Chris M wrote: > Correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't the first machine to > run AIX the IBM/RT's? Googling... It was called AIX, but it doesn't have much in common with the later AIX. The RT-AIX was a more or less straight port of some 4BSD to the RT. The later AIX is an IBM reimplementation of UNIX. (AFAIK) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org Tue Sep 4 04:12:22 2007 From: oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 03:12:22 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Reviving DEC RX01 power supply Message-ID: <1188897142.46dd21762346f@www.jblaser.org> > IIRC, the 'raw DC' is unregulated, just rectified and smoothed from the > transformer. As is the 24V line. Both are about 1.7* what they should be. That's the strange thing to me. The two secondaries from the transformer (one for the 24V line, and the other for the 10V line [which sources the regulated 5V output]) are 'proper' at 27.8V and 11.2V, respectively. What I don't understand is how a 24V line can suddenly produce 42V! It's like something is 'pumping' the circuit, and I admit I have never studied how such things work. The funny thing is that the 5V regulation is working, even with 17V input instead of 10V. > It's gettign late, so I'll not find the prints tonight. But IIRC, the > transformer in this supply is a ferroresonant one, and that's what > stabilises the 'raw' and 24V lines. What happens if the capacitor hung > off that is defective? Fair point, but can a faulty capacitor 'pump' up the voltage like I'm seeing? > I suspect the last part is very ture. Actually replacing the faulty part > is the easy bit :-) Hey, thanks for your confidence! :-) I can use a little outside support! ;-) Let me add that this RX01 is the second of two RX01 units in this system. When I went through the first one a week ago, it checked out fine...that is I saw 25V/10.2v on the outputs, without a load. And you're not going to like this :-), but for an electronics novice, tonight I followed my instinct and swapped the regulator PCBs between units. Yup, the 'good' system's PCB now is putting out 42V and 17V! So, it's not the regulation circuit, I guess, or any component on the two system's PCBs. But after swapping the PS regulator PCBs, all that's left are the transformer (which appears to be putting out 'expected' voltages), a 660V AC capacitor thingy (which I obviously don't understand...is it part of the ferrroresonance?) that only connects back to the transformer itself, and the two smoothing caps (one for the 24V line and one for the 10V line). Is it possible that one/both caps are 'pumping' the circuit? I'm just too novice to know. Another suggestion I received privately hints that putting a dummy load on the PS might bring it into line, and that I will try. I have access to an oscilloscope, and will put it on the thing, too, to see if I can discover anything strange. Thanks, Jared From lproven at gmail.com Tue Sep 4 05:43:24 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 11:43:24 +0100 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <200709032153.45687.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709031441w606c7373g32ad9614ce8efaf2@mail.gmail.com> <200709032153.45687.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <575131af0709040343y6cb9cb3cs2cf7820740e4da8@mail.gmail.com> On 04/09/07, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Monday 03 September 2007 17:41, Liam Proven wrote: > > On 03/09/07, William Donzelli wrote: > > > > I have a number of PowerMacs for that side of things. :?) > > > > > > The PowerPCs in Macs are the retarded little brothers of the real > > > POWER processors. > > > > Arguably, this may be so, but I'd submit two rather important riders > > on to that. > > > > [1] Whereas this was the case with the 601/603/604 and so on, I'm not > > sure it's really true any more. The "G5" is pretty much a 2-core > > POWER4, AIUI > > As I've read, the 601 is more POWER than the rest of the PPC chips. > Still much slower and dumbed down than the proper POWER (non-PC) > versions. Can you give some supporting evidence for that assertion? I've been following the development of POWER and PowerPC since their first announcements, and as far as I can see, the process has been one of gradual convergence. The PPC601 was a single-chip implementation of what was still a processor /chipset/ on the IBM side - IIRC, I think the contemporary IBM processor was spread over 5 chips or something. Since the PPC601, the PPC has gained more power, more integration, more cache, better branch prediction, more logic units and so on. The POWER chipset was shrunk onto a chip, then followed a similar evolution. > And you have that backwards, the G5 is 1/2 of a POWER4 chip. I have nothing whatsover backwards and kindly don't make assumptions. I stated that the "G5" - the PPC970 family - is a dual-core POWER4; given that I was talking to someone who claims good knowledge of the POWER processors but seems not to be so /au fait/ with PowerPC, I did not see any necessity to spell out that POWER4 is a quad-core design. PPC970 also adds Altivec-compatible SIMD instructions to POWER, but is a highly capable 64-bit implementation of POWER. I'm not aware of much that modern PPC processers can't do that POWER can, other than things intended for the support of legacy IBM OSs such as OS/400 or zOS. > I guess a > dual-core G5 is close to a POWER4, but it's still lacking some things, > like cache. (?) The 970 has onboard primary and secondary cache. In the first model, 64KB of direct-mapped L1 instruction cache and 32KB of L1 data cache, plus 512KB of 2-way associative L2 cache. > And, the G5 has VMX/Altivec, which the POWER4 doesn't. > Mostly, the POWER4 was designed to be a enterprise server grade CPU, > and the G5 is designed to be a consumer-grade CPU. There's a lot of > trade-offs that they made when designing one vs the other. You might find it instructive to read these articles: http://www.arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/cpu/ppc970.ars http://www.arstechnica.com/cpu/03q1/ppc970/ppc970-0.html They discuss the tradeoffs between POWER4 and PPC970 in some detail. The PPC is and always has been a desktop processor for the retail consumer market; its rivals were the Athlon64 and Pentium 4D. As such it's tuned towards different demands than the POWER4, which is aimed for expensive, non-cost-sensitive IBM servers, minis and mainframes - not that there's a lot of difference between those 3 categories today. To copy the 1st article I link's summary of the differences: "In sum, the 970 is made to be faster, cheaper, and significantly less reliable than the Power4." > I guess that a POWER3 is technically also a "PowerPC 630", but no > resemblance to the PPC60x series of chips. So PPC 60x is different to PPC63x? No, *really?* :?) > The POWER5 and POWER6 are quite a bit more interesting than any PowerPC > chip. Yes, arguably, but now Apple has abandoned the PPC, it's dead in the water as far as the desktop is concerned, so it won't really evolve any further. (Which I think is a great shame.) On the other hand, in the embedded market, there are fascinating chips like PA Semi's PWRficient line. http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9584_22-5907281.html http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/10/24/pasemi_power/print.html These will carry the torch forward for PPC, but we won't find them in any affordable desktop machines. > > [2] All the interesting apps and the desktop-relevant stuff is on > > PowerPC. Specifically, on OS X. Even a 10y old G3 Mac with OSX makes > > a pleasant and usable machine for the Web today and for day-to-day > > use. I can't think of a lot of use for a 10yo RS/6000 except as a > > server - as a workstation running Motif or something, it wouldn't be > > much use on the desktop today. > > Interesting depends on what you mean by it. Well, of course, but I went on to define what I meant in the same sentence on the same line. Desktop-relevant stuff that I can actually use. I'm reading and writing this on a web page; for the 2007 Web, I need a modern CSS2-capable browser, Flash, Javascript, Java, RealPlayer, QuickTime and Windows Media support. OS X delivers those; even PowerPC Linux, probably the most-widely-supported desktop Unix environment on PPC, does not. > POWER has AIX and i5/OS / OS/400. by themselves, much more interesting > to me than anything that runs on MacOSX. Of course, I'm "one of those > people" who runs Linux on their work-provided PowerMac G5. I just > can't seem to get my boss to want to pay $10k for a proper POWER5 > workstation from IBM. ;) A snag! I find these to be academically interesting OSs, ones I'd like to work with and know more about, but neither I nor my small-business clients have any direct personal or professional use or need for them. Unlike a Mac. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From dave06a at dunfield.com Tue Sep 4 07:26:16 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 07:26:16 -0500 Subject: trs 80 model 16B In-Reply-To: <46DC8BB6.5050402@pgdeng.co.uk> Message-ID: <200709041130.l84BUPvU012870@hosting.monisys.ca> > Is there anyone who can help me? I am needing an 8" boot disc of > suitable software, to breathe life into my 16B monster! I can't > believe there is no 8" disk's available? I have made a > suitable cable to connect a 5,25 drive, so any suitable software will > do, please contact me if you think you can help. regards paul Kelly Leavitt has a set of 16B/6000 Xenix disk images posted at: www.catcorner.org/Tandy www.catcorner.org/Xenix If you dig up a copy of TRSDOS16 (TRSDOS ported to the 68k) I'd love to have an copy of the image for my archive. Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From kelly at catcorner.org Tue Sep 4 08:13:03 2007 From: kelly at catcorner.org (Kelly Leavitt) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 09:13:03 -0400 Subject: trs 80 model 16B Message-ID: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E30B14E2@MEOW.catcorner.org> >> Is there anyone who can help me? I am needing an 8" boot disc of >> suitable software, to breathe life into my 16B monster! I can't >> believe there is no 8" disk's available? I have made a >> suitable cable to connect a 5,25 drive, so any suitable software will >> do, please contact me if you think you can help. regards paul > > Kelly Leavitt has a set of 16B/6000 Xenix disk images posted at: > www.catcorner.org/Tandy > www.catcorner.org/Xenix > > If you dig up a copy of TRSDOS16 (TRSDOS ported to the 68k) I'd love > to have an copy of the image for my archive. > > Dave Although pretty slow at doing so, I have most of the operating systems that ran on this series of computers either archived in imagedisk format, or ready to be made so. I have TRS-DOS 16, II, and a lot of different CP/M versions that I can image. And Dave, you and anyone else doing so, are welcome to either link or make a copy of my images available for download in your archives. A little acknowledgement would be nice, but not required. Kelly From james at machineroom.info Tue Sep 4 03:21:19 2007 From: james at machineroom.info (James) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 09:21:19 +0100 Subject: British Computers. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46DD157F.2080601@machineroom.info> >> (from Jim Austins collection) : Elliot & Ferranti > > I thought we were excluding larger machines. Ah, missed that bit... Ferranti did seem like an obvious miss :-) >> >> Whitecross (WX9xxx & later). Massively parallel transputer (and later >> x86) SQL machines. Doesn't do much without a Sun frontend but the >> machine itself was designed & manufactured in the UK. Sadly, the >> transputers it uses are ST rather than Inmos. I have one as a pet :-) > > What's the difference? French vs. English. It'd be nice if the chips were british too whilst we're being all patriotic From pat at computer-refuge.org Tue Sep 4 09:33:53 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 10:33:53 -0400 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <575131af0709040343y6cb9cb3cs2cf7820740e4da8@mail.gmail.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <200709032153.45687.pat@computer-refuge.org> <575131af0709040343y6cb9cb3cs2cf7820740e4da8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200709041033.53451.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Tuesday 04 September 2007, Liam Proven wrote: > On 04/09/07, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > On Monday 03 September 2007 17:41, Liam Proven wrote: > > > On 03/09/07, William Donzelli wrote: > > > > > I have a number of PowerMacs for that side of things. :?) > > > > > > > > The PowerPCs in Macs are the retarded little brothers of the > > > > real POWER processors. > > > > > > Arguably, this may be so, but I'd submit two rather important > > > riders on to that. > > > > > > [1] Whereas this was the case with the 601/603/604 and so on, I'm > > > not sure it's really true any more. The "G5" is pretty much a > > > 2-core POWER4, AIUI > > > > As I've read, the 601 is more POWER than the rest of the PPC chips. > > Still much slower and dumbed down than the proper POWER (non-PC) > > versions. > > Can you give some supporting evidence for that assertion? I've been > following the development of POWER and PowerPC since their first > announcements, and as far as I can see, the process has been one of > gradual convergence. The PPC601 was a single-chip implementation of > what was still a processor /chipset/ on the IBM side - IIRC, I think > the contemporary IBM processor was spread over 5 chips or something. I don't feel like looking this up. Go look at SPECfp numbers for PPC and POWER chips of the same era, for a starting point. There's also a number of POWER architecture descriptions floating around the internet which detail differences. > > And you have that backwards, the G5 is 1/2 of a POWER4 chip. > > I have nothing whatsover backwards and kindly don't make assumptions. > I stated that the "G5" - the PPC970 family - is a dual-core POWER4; > given that I was talking to someone who claims good knowledge of the > POWER processors but seems not to be so /au fait/ with PowerPC, I did > not see any necessity to spell out that POWER4 is a quad-core design. > PPC970 also adds Altivec-compatible SIMD instructions to POWER, but > is a highly capable 64-bit implementation of POWER. The POWER4 is dual core, the original G5 is single core. The newest G5 is dual core. IBM didn't make ANY quad-core processors until the POWER5+. > I'm not aware of much that modern PPC processers can't do that POWER > can, other than things intended for the support of legacy IBM OSs > such as OS/400 or zOS. The POWER chips have a bunch of hypervisor goo, and many, many MBs of L3 cache on the multicore versions. > > I guess a > > dual-core G5 is close to a POWER4, but it's still lacking some > > things, like cache. > > (?) The 970 has onboard primary and secondary cache. In the first > model, 64KB of direct-mapped L1 instruction cache and 32KB of L1 data > cache, plus 512KB of 2-way associative L2 cache. I wasn't say it was without *any* cache. It just has a lot less than POWER4. No one builds modern processors without ANY cache, that'd just be silly. > > And, the G5 has VMX/Altivec, which the POWER4 doesn't. > > Mostly, the POWER4 was designed to be a enterprise server grade > > CPU, and the G5 is designed to be a consumer-grade CPU. There's a > > lot of trade-offs that they made when designing one vs the other. > > They discuss the tradeoffs between POWER4 and PPC970 in some detail. > The PPC is and always has been a desktop processor for the retail > consumer market; its rivals were the Athlon64 and Pentium 4D. As such > it's tuned towards different demands than the POWER4, which is aimed > for expensive, non-cost-sensitive IBM servers, minis and mainframes - > not that there's a lot of difference between those 3 categories > today. > > To copy the 1st article I link's summary of the differences: "In sum, > the 970 is made to be faster, cheaper, and significantly less > reliable than the Power4." Why should I read those? That was the exact point I was trying to make. > > The POWER5 and POWER6 are quite a bit more interesting than any > > PowerPC chip. > > Yes, arguably, but now Apple has abandoned the PPC, it's dead in the > water as far as the desktop is concerned, so it won't really evolve > any further. (Which I think is a great shame.) POWER5 and POWER6 have evolved quite a bit from where POWER4 was. IBM made a lot more money selling POWER processors, systems, and consulting to go with it, than they ever did with selling PPC chips to apple. IBM was dragging their feet with PPC features on the G5 (and whatever would have been G6), which is why Apple abandoned them; if IBM was making enough money from Apple on their G5s, I'm sure that they would have payed more attention to what Apple wanted (like low-power noteboot CPUs). > On the other hand, in the embedded market, there are fascinating > chips like PA Semi's PWRficient line. > > http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9584_22-5907281.html > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/10/24/pasemi_power/print.html > > These will carry the torch forward for PPC, but we won't find them in > any affordable desktop machines. Depends on what you mean by "affordable". Easily more affordable than an inflation-adjusted IBM 5150 or similar. > > > [2] All the interesting apps and the desktop-relevant stuff is on > > > PowerPC. Specifically, on OS X. Even a 10y old G3 Mac with OSX > > > makes a pleasant and usable machine for the Web today and for > > > day-to-day use. I can't think of a lot of use for a 10yo RS/6000 > > > except as a server - as a workstation running Motif or something, > > > it wouldn't be much use on the desktop today. > > > > Interesting depends on what you mean by it. > > Well, of course, but I went on to define what I meant in the same > sentence on the same line. Desktop-relevant stuff that I can actually > use. I'm reading and writing this on a web page; for the 2007 Web, I > need a modern CSS2-capable browser, Flash, Javascript, Java, > RealPlayer, QuickTime and Windows Media support. OS X delivers those; > even PowerPC Linux, probably the most-widely-supported desktop Unix > environment on PPC, does not. Whether or not you need Flash is a matter of debate... but a lot of that can be handled by firefox, IBM's PPC JREs, and mplayer/xine. Who needs three separate media players, when you can use one of two OSS players, and play almost anything. I hear that the OSS flash player is even very close to being able to play youtube/google flash videos. But, alas, this still doesn't make a platform intersting to me. > > POWER has AIX and i5/OS / OS/400. by themselves, much more > > interesting to me than anything that runs on MacOSX. Of course, > > I'm "one of those people" who runs Linux on their work-provided > > PowerMac G5. I just can't seem to get my boss to want to pay $10k > > for a proper POWER5 workstation from IBM. ;) > > A snag! > > I find these to be academically interesting OSs, ones I'd like to > work with and know more about, but neither I nor my small-business > clients have any direct personal or professional use or need for > them. Unlike a Mac. Who said personal/professional use? I though that people collected computers because they were "interesting", not just because they were useful. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From bear at typewritten.org Tue Sep 4 10:26:59 2007 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 08:26:59 -0700 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <20070904094815.0c63b513@SirToby.dinner41.local> References: <575131af0709031313n4e253299rf657ba86981f044f@mail.gmail.com> <714027.54992.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> <20070904094815.0c63b513@SirToby.dinner41.local> Message-ID: <56E6967D-310B-4D09-98BC-F68090527F2B@typewritten.org> On Sep 4, 2007, at 12:48 AM, Jochen Kunz wrote: > It was called AIX, but it doesn't have much in common with the later > AIX. The RT-AIX was a more or less straight port of some 4BSD to > the RT. > The later AIX is an IBM reimplementation of UNIX. (AFAIK) You're thinking of AOS (Academic OS). AIX was from the earliest days derived from Interactive's IN/ix, which IBM claims was "the first commercial UNIX." ok bear From mcguire at neurotica.com Tue Sep 4 10:41:15 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 11:41:15 -0400 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <575131af0709040343y6cb9cb3cs2cf7820740e4da8@mail.gmail.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709031441w606c7373g32ad9614ce8efaf2@mail.gmail.com> <200709032153.45687.pat@computer-refuge.org> <575131af0709040343y6cb9cb3cs2cf7820740e4da8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <868FBACC-B088-48FA-8CF4-7D16D04063B6@neurotica.com> On Sep 4, 2007, at 6:43 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >> And you have that backwards, the G5 is 1/2 of a POWER4 chip. > > I have nothing whatsover backwards and kindly don't make assumptions. > I stated that the "G5" - the PPC970 family - is a dual-core POWER4; > given that I was talking to someone who claims good knowledge of the > POWER processors but seems not to be so /au fait/ with PowerPC, I did > not see any necessity to spell out that POWER4 is a quad-core design. > PPC970 also adds Altivec-compatible SIMD instructions to POWER, but is > a highly capable 64-bit implementation of POWER. The PPC970 is a dual-core processor? The one I'm typing this on certainly doesn't seem to be. > I'm not aware of much that modern PPC processers can't do that POWER > can, other than things intended for the support of legacy IBM OSs such > as OS/400 or zOS. z/OS is a "legacy" OS? Sure doesn't look that way to me. Am I just blind today or something? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From legalize at xmission.com Tue Sep 4 10:58:18 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 09:58:18 -0600 Subject: building a machine room In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 03 Sep 2007 16:04:00 -0400. <46DC68B0.4050309@netscape.net> Message-ID: In article <46DC68B0.4050309 at netscape.net>, scheefj at netscape.net writes: > * Dehumidification is probably more important to the collection than > heating or cooling. I live in a desert. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Sep 4 11:13:44 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 12:13:44 -0400 Subject: building a machine room In-Reply-To: <46DC68B0.4050309@netscape.net> References: <46DC68B0.4050309@netscape.net> Message-ID: On 9/3/07, scheefj at netscape.net wrote: > Richard, > > Some thoughts: > > * Cooling requirements can be adjusted based on how many machines > are running at the same time and for how long. Sure. > * Winter cooling needs may be nill, or even undesireable. I live in Central Ohio. Winter temps range from a typical low of -5F (it gets lower, but not every winter, and not for long), to a typical high around +20F, but we have had a number of "Green Christmases" over the years, and do exceed +60F in December and January on occasion. When working for employers with tons of AC cooling multi-hundred square-foot machine rooms, I have had to call for AC repair in the winter. We got the strangest reactions from the HVAC contractors, but we really did need to have our AC repaired. > * Dehumidification is probably more important to the collection than > heating or cooling. In Ohio, dehumidification is essential in summer, whereas humidification is frequently warranted in the winter, at least above ground. In my area, moisture in basements isn't normally too hard to achieve. In my area, natural gas is the most ordinary heating fuel. For those that live in areas where electric heat is common, an in-house machine room will add heat to the house "for free". Summertime, though, is a different matter. I have aspirations of building a new structure next to my 30'x50' quonset hut. I already have several hundred square feet of steel-backed raised tiles and all the pegs. Money, naturally, is the factor that's holding me back. At this point, my intention is to plan for a 40'x60' structure with straight walls, giving me substantially more usable space over what I have now. Depending on how well insulated the place would end up, from my prior experience in machine rooms, I'd say that 5 tons of AC wouldn't be oversized, and might be a bit small. Expensive to run, though, especially in July and August. -ethan From legalize at xmission.com Tue Sep 4 11:15:10 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 10:15:10 -0600 Subject: ebay: ANSI Electron Tubes, Bases, Capsn and Terminals Message-ID: Ebay # 320152907541 Here we have ANSI American National Standards, ANSI for electron tubes and related items. Including: 1. C60.1-1964 (UDC 621.385.1; 621.3.032), EIA RS-209-A. Dimensional Characteristics of Electron Tubes, Bases, Caps, and Terminals (including Gauges). 3 sections: 51, 112 and 48 pages. **Cover edges are worn on this one. 2. C60.6-1959 (UDC 621.3.032.2:621.317.335) EIA RS-191-A. Direct Interelectrode Capacitances, 16 pages. 3. C60.8-1963 (UDC 621.3.032.2:621.3.011.4) EIA RS-263. Interelement Capacitance for Electron Tubes. 2 page. 4. C60.9-1964 (UDC 621.385.13.001.3) 62 IRE 7.52. Definitions of Terms for Electron Tubes, 8 pages. 5. C60.4-1950 (UDS 003.62:621.3.032.71) JETEC JO-C3, Designation System for Metal Electron Tub Shells, 2 page. ***NOTE: These are currently in a ANSI binder - please advise if binder is NOT desired so we can adjust the shipping rate. Previously a library copy. Lightly read, virtually no page creasing, no rips or tears found. Jacket/cover has light edge and corner wear. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 4 11:32:46 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 09:32:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 5362 In-Reply-To: <46DC3902.18218.11298B39@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <268558.1778.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 3 Sep 2007 at 15:47, woodelf wrote: > > > Well what can it be that is 150 lbs, and worth > $3K. > > Well it can't be a classic bath-tub ( the best > kind ). > > You could always ship by Greyhound. > > Ben alias Woodelf. > > I've had good results with Amtrak Express for > medium-to-large > packages; Greyhound isn't bad either. I didn't realize they shipped large packages/crates. AAMOF, I wanted to buy something (an old Rivett lathe) in the Chicago area over a year ago, and Greyhound was telling me I couldn't even put the thing in the cargo area. I guess your mileage can vary depending on which idiot you get on the other end of the tin can. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 4 11:37:41 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 09:37:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: trs 80 model 16B In-Reply-To: <07028839E9A3744F87BEF27FF2CFF8E30B14E2@MEOW.catcorner.org> Message-ID: <404396.67703.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> --- Kelly Leavitt wrote: > Although pretty slow at doing so, I have most of the > operating systems that ran on this series of > computers either archived in imagedisk format, or > ready to be made so. I'll say. Slow indeed. Here I am waiting 4+ months for even a reply to the last e-mail I sent. Are you on dial-up hoser LOL LOL. Crikeys. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 4 12:11:37 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 10:11:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: train to Boston (MIT) Message-ID: <634715.70607.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> I suppose I could just drive and save myself the headaches. And looking at some of these websites and just trying to find a freaking schedule, aside from the crap about scheduled getaways and WHATEVER THE FRIG, can someone tell me (who's done it) if it's practical to get to Boston from NYC by train? Amtrak is just to expensive (~120$ round trip). I doubt sincerely that anyone on this list would have done this, so I guess I'll be driving. I hear Massachusetts people have lost the ability (as if they ever had it) to drive... Metro north only goes as far as Waterbury, CT, so I guess you get off there and start thumbing??? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC From tshoppa at wmata.com Tue Sep 4 12:31:30 2007 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 13:31:30 -0400 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) Message-ID: <46DD5E3302000037000107AA@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Chuck wrote: > On 3 Sep 2007 at 19:59, der Mouse wrote: >> MCM2016HN70 / HID8625 >> CY7C409A-25PC / USA9225 91714 >> GAL16V8A / 15LP / L218D16 >> MC14034B / CP QQ8318 > In no particular order, the MC14304B is a 4000-series CMOS quad "NOR" > latch. The MCM2016 is a generic 2Kx8 SRAM, the CY7C409A is a 64x9 > FIFO, > the GAL16V8A is a CMOS PLD (64x32 arry, registered outputs). > The others are a bit of a mystery to me. "The others" are speed ranges (15ns) and date codes from the 80's and 90's :-). Tim. From evan at snarc.net Tue Sep 4 13:05:45 2007 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 14:05:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: train to Boston (MIT) In-Reply-To: <634715.70607.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> References: <634715.70607.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <43827.65.126.154.6.1188929145.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> >>> can someone tell me (who's done it) if it's practical to get to Boston from NYC by train? Amtrak is just to expensive (~120$ round trip). I've taken the train between Boston and NYC a zillion times. Is it "practical"...? Yes, of course. Train technology became practical many, many, many years ago. It's also quicker than driving and you can relax, plug in a laptop, eat, pee, or do whatever you like. It's quite a nice trip actually. Being pricey doesn't make it impractical. Just makes you cheap. However it does cost less if you travel at an off-peak time and use a student or AAA discount. Nor is the drive so bad. Don't take 95 (the Bronx is a terrible ride); instead take Tappan Zee, to the Westchester parkways, to 91, to 84, to 90 (Mass Pike) which takes you right to Cambridge. Four hours. Or take a bus. Much cheaper that way. From steve at radiorobots.com Tue Sep 4 13:05:15 2007 From: steve at radiorobots.com (Steve Stutman) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 14:05:15 -0400 Subject: train to Boston (MIT) In-Reply-To: <634715.70607.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> References: <634715.70607.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46DD9E5B.8080206@radiorobots.com> Chris M wrote: > I suppose I could just drive and save myself the >headaches. And looking at some of these websites and >just trying to find a freaking schedule, aside from >the crap about scheduled getaways and WHATEVER THE >FRIG, can someone tell me (who's done it) if it's >practical to get to Boston from NYC by train? Amtrak >is just to expensive (~120$ round trip). I doubt >sincerely that anyone on this list would have done >this, so I guess I'll be driving. I hear Massachusetts >people have lost the ability (as if they ever had it) >to drive... > Metro north only goes as far as Waterbury, CT, so I >guess you get off there and start thumbing??? > > > >____________________________________________________________________________________ >Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search >that gives answers, not web links. >http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC > > Look up "Fung Wah Bus". Steve From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 4 13:12:01 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 11:12:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: train to Boston (MIT) In-Reply-To: <43827.65.126.154.6.1188929145.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> Message-ID: <884208.81482.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> --- Evan Koblentz wrote: > Being pricey doesn't make it impractical. Just > makes you cheap. Right. Coming from the person who wants to be driven across the fruited plain to VCF whatever, but for some strange reason using his vehicle in never an option. > Nor is the drive so bad. Don't take 95 (the Bronx > is a terrible ride); > instead take Tappan Zee, to the Westchester > parkways, to 91, to 84, to 90 > (Mass Pike) which takes you right to Cambridge. > Four hours. I prefer the GW/95. The ride across Connecticut on 84 is boring as all get out. There are of course many places to pull over and pee though. > Or take a bus. Much cheaper that way. You ought to know. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 4 13:33:24 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 11:33:24 -0700 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: <46DD5E3302000037000107AA@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> References: <46DD5E3302000037000107AA@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Message-ID: <46DD4284.142.1536AF0E@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Sep 2007 at 13:31, Tim Shoppa wrote: > Chuck wrote: > > On 3 Sep 2007 at 19:59, der Mouse wrote: > >> MCM2016HN70 / HID8625 > >> CY7C409A-25PC / USA9225 91714 > >> GAL16V8A / 15LP / L218D16 > >> MC14034B / CP QQ8318 > "The others" are speed ranges (15ns) and date codes > from the 80's and 90's :-). Yeah, I almost asked if the "15LP" wasn't part of the GAL16V8A number. Shows you how well I read. :( Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 4 14:18:59 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 12:18:59 -0700 Subject: Reviving DEC RX01 power supply In-Reply-To: <1188897142.46dd21762346f@www.jblaser.org> References: <1188897142.46dd21762346f@www.jblaser.org> Message-ID: <46DD4D33.29061.15606C07@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Sep 2007 at 3:12, J Blaser wrote: > That's the strange thing to me. The two secondaries from the transformer (one > for the 24V line, and the other for the 10V line [which sources the regulated > 5V output]) are 'proper' at 27.8V and 11.2V, respectively. What I don't understand is how a 24V line can suddenly produce 42V! It's like something > is 'pumping' the circuit, and I admit I have never studied how such things work. Your measurement of the AC output (27.8 volts) is the RMS value of the voltage. In an unloaded rectifier-capacitor setup, the capacitor will charge to the *peak* value of the AC voltage. 42 vdc is "close enough". Notice that there's no regulator on the +24 PSU line--just a simple full-wave rectifier formed by D1 and D2 and C1 as a filter cap. There's a 10K bleeder on the line, but that accounts for only 2 ma of current draw at 24 volts on a supply that's rated for 1000 times that current. Put a load on it, say 12-24 ohms or even two automovtive lamps hooked in series and watch the voltage drop. Cheers, Chuck From ceby2 at csc.com Tue Sep 4 14:13:26 2007 From: ceby2 at csc.com (Colin Eby) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 20:13:26 +0100 Subject: IBM 5362 In-Reply-To: <200709040511.l845BdXU070823@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >> On 9/3/07, Chris M wrote: >> There are 1 of these on eBay: >> >> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=140152462361&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=004 >> >> I want! >> >> Oh, it's in Oklahoma. It's got to weight >150lbs, >> no? FWIW I believe the 5362 is a sublime machine. The machine architecture and operating system are totally unlike the VMS/UNIX stuff many of us are used to. The mainframe derived, yet somehow unique approach is weird and wonderful... Even a familiarity with its descendant AS/400 won't quite give the same thing. Just for example, the system runs in 8 bit compartmentalised process spaces. The processors are 8 bit, but the machines often have as much as 2 MB on them. So they've taken the concept of memory windowing to something of an extreme. You can't program outside the 64 MB RAM bounds without invoking a separate program in another memory space. On the other hand, you have have as many applications running in either shared or single instance mode as you have memory for. As a second 'for instance', there are actually 2 CPUs. One is more or less equivalent to a channel controller in that it does all the IO. Truly, this is a machine worth having. There has never been an emulator written to reflect this architecture, so the only way you can really experience it is first hand. Add to that the library/directory/file data storage paradym, RPG/Basic/Cobol/Assembler as the programming languages, and an extensive menu/terminal IO driven interface and you have something as un-cshell like as I can imagine in a machine you are ever likely to actually possess. Compared to this a PDP/11 running RT-11 (or the like) feels a pimped version of CP/M. IMHOP: zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.... (I'm already ducking my head for fear of the flaming retribution of the DEC collectors on the list) --- Jason T wrote: > Before I forget, and as I'm sure most already know, > someone's been trying to give away a 5360 on > marketplace.vintage.org for sometime. I don't feel > like logging in, so I can't "see everything", so I > don't know if it's still available, but I imagine it > would be. > I bet Sridhar already has one, so you won't have to > fight him for it LOL LOL LOL. > Can't remember where it was located, I want to say > Connecticut, but I could very well be wrong. Now I just happen to be the poor sap with this thundering albatross. After making my pitch, and singing the platforms virtues let me ask, nee plead for a new keeper to step foward. Here is the revised 'scoop'. I haven't laid eyes on this system in at least 5 years. It's stored in a ground level lock-up (garage door style) outside Hartford. I will give a copy of the key to ANYONE who will relieve me of the storage rental. But that's ALL I can give you. Over the years I have indeed tried to give away this system to a number of well intentioned people. The problem is they always want me help transport it. Well my ability to 'help' has descended from the sublime to the ridiculous. I no longer living in the area (by which I mean I live 4000 miles away in England and can be of no imaginable assistance at all). Tempted? Drop me a mailing address and I will eagerly post you a copy of the padlock key. From there... over to you. Do your best to collect it (all of it, please). You MUST have (1) a forklift (2) a tail lift (3) a team of oxen (a fraternity pledge class would be ideal). The photo published on 'marketplace' is of the actual machine, just before I moved it. The 'vette' in the background should give you a clear idea of scale. Go on, I know you want to. Sridhar's no threat to your acquisition. He wisely turned me down so long ago I imagine he's forgotten about it altogether. Thanks, Colin Eby From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 4 14:38:37 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 12:38:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 5362 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <101265.31388.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> --- Colin Eby wrote: > Compared to this a PDP/11 running RT-11 (or the > like) feels a pimped > version of CP/M. LOL LOL @ pimping the puter. LOL ____________________________________________________________________________________ Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small Business gives you all the tools to get online. http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Sep 4 14:46:29 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 13:46:29 -0600 Subject: British Computers. In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA7B@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA7B@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <46DDB615.1090409@jetnet.ab.ca> Rod Smallwood wrote: > So I can come along sit down and start knocking out some code then? > That might cause a crowd to collect. Then something dynamic. > Line printers thumping away, Paper tape reader on a long loop. > Tape punch doing a Woody Woodpecker. IBM 029 doing verify. > Two security guys dragging me out of the building. > The visitors would love that!! > > Rod Well if you have Hard Drives Dancing to music from the *DISCO* panel lights, I am sure you would have I nice padded cell waiting for you as well. Ben Alias Woodelf PS.With Broadcast Band Valve Radio Blasting away the DISCO music from the CPU,I guess the security just don't like music. :) From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Sep 4 15:12:50 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 16:12:50 -0400 Subject: IBM 5362 In-Reply-To: <101265.31388.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> References: <101265.31388.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > LOL LOL @ pimping the puter. LOL Clearly an Oxford man. -- Will From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Tue Sep 4 15:20:15 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 13:20:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM 5362 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <872526.77453.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> --- William Donzelli wrote: > > LOL LOL @ pimping the puter. LOL > > Clearly an Oxford man. And from what prestigious institution did you graduate? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha! Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games. http://get.games.yahoo.com/proddesc?gamekey=monopolyherenow From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Sep 4 15:25:54 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 16:25:54 -0400 Subject: IBM 5362 In-Reply-To: <872526.77453.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> References: <872526.77453.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > > > LOL LOL @ pimping the puter. LOL > > > > Clearly an Oxford man. > > And from what prestigious institution did you > graduate? I think that joke went over your head. Look up "OED" on wiki. -- Will, MSOE BS CSE 1991 From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Sep 4 15:30:04 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 15:30:04 -0500 Subject: IBM 5362 In-Reply-To: References: <200709040511.l845BdXU070823@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <51ea77730709041330j13062ba4h8388476adbdb61ed@mail.gmail.com> On 9/4/07, Colin Eby wrote: > > FWIW I believe the 5362 is a sublime machine. The machine architecture and And it went to a single bidder for $25! Had it been local, I would have gone for it. From lynchaj at yahoo.com Tue Sep 4 13:58:47 2007 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 11:58:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reverse engineer the MatchPoint PC card? Message-ID: <704602.76357.qm@web31007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Hi, Is there any interest in reverse engineering the MatchPoint PC card? I have one the cards and it appears fairly simple. It is mostly a small number of 74LSXX TTL chips and buffers. There are a small number of PALs on the board which pose the biggest challenge, I think. An open sourced version of the MatchPoint PC card design would be a powerful tool for those of us interested in making disk images of legacy CP/M hard and soft sector formats. Of course, it would imply some software being written as well to be useful outside of just the Uniform PC software which comes with it. Is reverse engineering the MatchPoint PC feasible and/or worthwhile? It might be slightly cheaper than a Catweasel but I doubt it would be as useful or flexible. I think the Catweasel ISA is probably a better deal but they can be hard to get. Are any of the original MicroSolutions MatchPoint PC designers still around? Does anyone own the MatchPoint PC IP or is it now officially "abandonware"? I would like to hear people's thoughts on the topic. Thanks! Andrew Lynch From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 3 20:05:08 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 02:05:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: <46DCA42D.8070907@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Sep 3, 7 06:17:49 pm Message-ID: > > Hugh Blemings wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Meant to include this in my earlier post - > > > > Amongst the other "treasure" I've got a decent sized assortment of old Motorola, Fairchild, Texas Instruments, Ferranti and National Semiconductor Databooks. These are all for chips - analog parts, ECL, MECL, TTL, CMOS logic, Special Function Devices , Memories etc. Date range late 70's to early '90s. > > > > If anyone knows of a better home for these than the paper recycling please let me know. > > > > My sense is that most of the data is available on the 'net now on the various archives. > > Well at 1:13 am I tend not to want to wait for the puter to warm up > and connect to find the pin out of a 7400 online from umm yawn where was that I, too, much prefer to have paper datasheets/databooks. It's a lot easier to flip thorugh a databook than try to find what you want on the web. Before the days of 'everything on the web' the semiconductor manufacturers used to send the databooks to companies, universities, etc. Whenerver a new one came in where I was working, I'd read through it, making a mental note of any chips that 'looked interesting'. There doesn't seem to be any way of doing that sort of thing on the websites :-( Anyway, the other reason for keeping old paper databooks is that the web changes. Far too often something I _knew_ was on a particular site is no longer there. Datasheets for chips often disappear when the chip is discontinued, which is not a lot of help when you're trying to fix something made 30 years ago. Yes, I know paper databooks can be lost, damaged, fall apart, etc, but that's not an argument for not _also_ keeping them, alongside web pages,etc. > PS. Iv'e got the 7400 pinout downloaded already. :) So have I. Into my brain. I think I'll rememebr that one until my dying day. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 3 21:41:32 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 03:41:32 +0100 (BST) Subject: Reviving DEC RX01 power supply In-Reply-To: <1188897142.46dd21762346f@www.jblaser.org> from "J Blaser" at Sep 4, 7 03:12:22 am Message-ID: > > > IIRC, the 'raw DC' is unregulated, just rectified and smoothed from the > > transformer. As is the 24V line. Both are about 1.7* what they should be. > > That's the strange thing to me. The two secondaries from the transformer (one > for the 24V line, and the other for the 10V line [which sources the regulated > 5V output]) are 'proper' at 27.8V and 11.2V, respectively. What I > don't understand is how a 24V line can suddenly produce 42V! It's like > something > is 'pumping' the circuit, and I admit I have never studied how such > things work. The normal voltage quoted for an AC signal (like the transformr secondary windings) is the RNS value. A simple rectifier/smoothing circuit will have an output approximately equal to the peak value of the AC input, which is sqrt(2) times as large. sqrt(2)+27.8 is about 40V. Hmmm... Are you sure those secondary voltages are reasoable? > > The funny thing is that the 5V regulation is working, even with 17V input > instead of 10V. The whole point of a regulator circuit is that the output voltage is independant of the input. Of course too high an input voltage will do damage, and for linear regulator circuits they run hotter as the input voltage increases. But I could well believe a reasonably designed regualtor would work correctly on double the input voltage, particularly on no load. > > > It's gettign late, so I'll not find the prints tonight. But IIRC, the > > transformer in this supply is a ferroresonant one, and that's what > > stabilises the 'raw' and 24V lines. What happens if the capacitor hung > > off that is defective? > > Fair point, but can a faulty capacitor 'pump' up the voltage like I'm seeing? The capacitor I am talking about is conencted to an extra winding on the trasnformer. It forms a resonant circuit with the inductance of this winding, normally tuned to the 3rd harmonic of the mains freqeucny. If that capacitor is defective, the winding will not be tuned, and I _think_ the output voltages go high, and are not regulated. > And you're not going to like this :-), but for an electronics novice, tonight I > followed my instinct and swapped the regulator PCBs between units. > Yup, the 'good' system's PCB now is putting out 42V and 17V! So, it's not > the regulation circuit, I guess, or any component on the two system's PCBs. > > But after swapping the PS regulator PCBs, all that's left are the > transformer (which appears to be putting out 'expected' voltages), a > 660V AC capacitor thingy (which I obviously don't understand...is it > part of the ferrroresonance?) that only connects That's the one that I susepct. > back to the transformer itself, and the two smoothing caps (one for the > 24V line and one for the 10V line). Is it possible that one/both > caps are 'pumping' the circuit? I'm just too novice to know. No, the smoothing capacitors could cause low outputs and excessive ripple, but I don't see how they could cause high outputs. > > Another suggestion I received privately hints that putting a dummy load > on the PS might bring it into line, and that I will try. I have access to an Thing is, you havve an identical PSU that works without a dummy load (as, BTW, do the ones in my RX01s and RX02s). I don't think you need a load on this supply/ -tony From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Sep 4 16:13:28 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 17:13:28 -0400 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <200709041033.53451.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <200709032153.45687.pat@computer-refuge.org> <575131af0709040343y6cb9cb3cs2cf7820740e4da8@mail.gmail.com> <200709041033.53451.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: > POWER5 and POWER6 have evolved quite a bit from where POWER4 was. IBM > made a lot more money selling POWER processors, systems, and consulting > to go with it, than they ever did with selling PPC chips to apple. IBM > was dragging their feet with PPC features on the G5 (and whatever would > have been G6), which is why Apple abandoned them; if IBM was making > enough money from Apple on their G5s, I'm sure that they would have > payed more attention to what Apple wanted (like low-power noteboot > CPUs). Looking back, the POWER lines for Apple were starting to be more of a nuisance for IBM. I do not think anyone was crying in Fishkill when the news came down about the Mac architecture change. -- Will From wdonzelli at gmail.com Tue Sep 4 16:20:41 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 17:20:41 -0400 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <575131af0709040343y6cb9cb3cs2cf7820740e4da8@mail.gmail.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709031441w606c7373g32ad9614ce8efaf2@mail.gmail.com> <200709032153.45687.pat@computer-refuge.org> <575131af0709040343y6cb9cb3cs2cf7820740e4da8@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > I'm not aware of much that modern PPC processers can't do that POWER > can, Feel the vibrations while chanting the mantra: Arrrrrrrrrr, Ayyyyyyy, Esssssss > other than things intended for the support of legacy IBM OSs such > as OS/400 or zOS. ! (that is all I have say about that). > As such > it's tuned towards different demands than the POWER4, which is aimed > for expensive, non-cost-sensitive IBM servers, minis and mainframes - > not that there's a lot of difference between those 3 categories today. Feel the vibrations... -- Will From aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Sep 4 16:34:14 2007 From: aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk (Andrew Burton) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 22:34:14 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <617183.65754.qm@web23410.mail.ird.yahoo.com> Tony Duell wrote:> > > I, too, much prefer to have paper > datasheets/databooks. It's a lot easier > to flip thorugh a databook than try to find what > you want on the web. > > Before the days of 'everything on the web' the Relying on everything being on the web is very bad. All it takes is a server failure, closing of a website or someone to "leave the web forever" and all the data is gone. I am busy archiving a programming group (AMOS-LIST) over on Yahoo before it vanishes (Yahoo often delete groups without reason, regardless of how active it is). Mainly for my own use, but I have uploaded some of it to Aminet for fellow Amiga enthusiasts. Got a long way to go though, I have 3000 messages out of 8300 on my laptop. Hard work, but alot of valuable info (and example code). Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 4 17:41:33 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 15:41:33 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Reverse engineer the MatchPoint PC card? In-Reply-To: <704602.76357.qm@web31007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <704602.76357.qm@web31007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070904153719.V35573@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 4 Sep 2007, Andrew Lynch wrote: > Are any of the original MicroSolutions MatchPoint PC > designers still around? Does anyone own the > MatchPoint PC IP or is it now officially > "abandonware"? Although MicroSolutions does not sell it any more, they are definitely still around, and would protect their intellectual property. It is NOT "abandonware". (Legally, there ain't no sech animal - just because you don't know who owns something does NOT mean that you can lay claim to it) There is nothing special to the design. You could easily design your own board to do the same, or comparable. Take a close look at what the hardware does on it, "Apple Turnover", "CP Option board deluxe", and Catweasel. It would be EASIER to design your own than to try to reverse engineer the existing product. From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Sep 4 17:44:58 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 17:44:58 -0500 Subject: Wang 300 Calc Message-ID: <51ea77730709041544x4c1e5364n3bdf843f8ed6a9f2@mail.gmail.com> I've got a line on one of these old Nixie-tube calculators at a fair price. I know they used an outboard processor, making them little more than (very pretty) terminals to a central CPU. Are they of any use other than a doorstop or eye candy for the collection? (And don't say "harvest them for the Nixies!") -- jht From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Sep 4 18:11:30 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 17:11:30 -0600 Subject: Reviving DEC RX01 power supply In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46DDE622.7080608@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > The whole point of a regulator circuit is that the output voltage is > independant of the input. Of course too high an input voltage will do > damage, and for linear regulator circuits they run hotter as the input > voltage increases. But I could well believe a reasonably designed > regualtor would work correctly on double the input voltage, particularly > on no load. Well that may not be practical. Even with household AC you have your voltage bouncing around -- here 120V to 130V. Playing around with a high voltage supply @ 300V regulated I have about 475 peak volts. I don't want to handle twice input that since my 1200 volt diodes will go bang! Ben alias Woodelf From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 4 17:18:17 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 15:18:17 -0700 Subject: Reverse engineer the MatchPoint PC card? In-Reply-To: <704602.76357.qm@web31007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <704602.76357.qm@web31007.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46DD7739.20928.160492E0@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Sep 2007 at 11:58, Andrew Lynch wrote: > Is there any interest in reverse engineering the > MatchPoint PC card? I have one the cards and it > appears fairly simple. It is mostly a small number of > 74LSXX TTL chips and buffers. There are a small > number of PALs on the board which pose the biggest > challenge, I think. Outside of any IP legal issues (and there may be some whoppers), the value of the MP is, IMOHO, in the software, not the hardware. When the MP was created, technology was very limited. You're better off with a Catweasel or rolling your own with a PIC or AVR. I designed an Apple II disk controller piggybacked onto a PC (to do drive control) back in the early 80's. There's plenty of info around about the format and one would be almost trivial now. I wouldn't bother trying to RE an old card. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 4 18:12:33 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 16:12:33 -0700 Subject: Reverse engineer the MatchPoint PC card? In-Reply-To: <20070904153719.V35573@shell.lmi.net> References: <704602.76357.qm@web31007.mail.mud.yahoo.com>, <20070904153719.V35573@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <46DD83F1.20897.16363FE0@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Sep 2007 at 15:41, Fred Cisin wrote: > Although MicroSolutions does not sell it any more, they are definitely > still around, and would protect their intellectual property. > It is NOT "abandonware". (Legally, there ain't no sech animal - just > because you don't know who owns something does NOT mean that you can lay > claim to it) Fred, I don't know if MS is still around. Their web site (micro- solutions.com) is gone and their phone is disconnected. I've searched around for what might have happened to them in Dekalb, but I can't find a thing. Anyone know for certain what happened to them? If you wanted to license the IP, you'd have to find out who acquired the assets. Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Sep 4 18:21:12 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 17:21:12 -0600 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <51ea77730709041544x4c1e5364n3bdf843f8ed6a9f2@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730709041544x4c1e5364n3bdf843f8ed6a9f2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46DDE868.60800@jetnet.ab.ca> Jason T wrote: > I've got a line on one of these old Nixie-tube calculators at a fair > price. I know they used an outboard processor, making them little > more than (very pretty) terminals to a central CPU. Are they of any > use other than a doorstop or eye candy for the collection? (And don't > say "harvest them for the Nixies!") > Well they still may be a good but slow calculator! At the original price they where built to last and are doing so still. Ben alias woodelf. From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Sep 4 18:28:07 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 18:28:07 -0500 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <46DDE868.60800@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <51ea77730709041544x4c1e5364n3bdf843f8ed6a9f2@mail.gmail.com> <46DDE868.60800@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <51ea77730709041628w450fbcacv6b2ec4c4246521ac@mail.gmail.com> On 9/4/07, woodelf wrote: > Well they still may be a good but slow calculator! > At the original price they where built to last and are doing > so still. > Ben alias woodelf. But aren't they simply front-end units to a central processor? I didn't think the 300 could do anything on it's own.. From oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org Tue Sep 4 18:47:27 2007 From: oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 17:47:27 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Reviving DEC RX01 power supply Message-ID: <1188949647.46ddee8fb7e53@www.jblaser.org> > which is sqrt(2) times as large. sqrt(2)+27.8 is about 40V. Hmmm... Are > you sure those secondary voltages are reasoable? I think so. The printset doesn't seem to specify the transformer's secondary voltages, but reviewing my historical notes from other RX0? revivals, the 'normal' voltages are roughly 24 and 10. > voltage increases. But I could well believe a reasonably designed > regualtor would work correctly on double the input voltage, particularly > on no load. It appears that the DEC designer did his/her job well, then, on this particular PS! :) > > Another suggestion I received privately hints that putting a dummy load > > on the PS might bring it into line, and that I will try. I have access to an > Thing is, you havve an identical PSU that works without a dummy load (as, > BTW, do the ones in my RX01s and RX02s). I don't think you need a load on > this supply/ Point taken, but after swapping the 660v AC cap between the units this afternoon, and seeing no difference. The only real thing left is the transformer, but I can test it's output directly, and it's at the 'normal' levels. So, I guess it's a 'dynamic' issue, rather than a static one. Maybe the load does matter. I'm going to try that next. - Jared From rickb at bensene.com Tue Sep 4 18:50:18 2007 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 16:50:18 -0700 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <51ea77730709041544x4c1e5364n3bdf843f8ed6a9f2@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730709041544x4c1e5364n3bdf843f8ed6a9f2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: The 300 - Series Wang Calculators consisted of two parts: an electronics package, and "Keyboard/Display Units". The electronics packages are usually small-briefcase-sized (single-user) or longer, shorter packages with a connector (or connectors for the multi-user versions) that the keyboard/display units plug into. The Keyboard/Display units are pretty much useless by themselves -- they need the "brains" in the electronics package to do anything. All the keyboard/display units consist of are a keyboard and keyboard encoding circuitry, and a Nixie tube display with display decode/driver electronics. There are no mathematical electronics in the Keyboard/display units. There were single-user calculator electronics packages and two "multi-user" electronic packages that could Run four simultaneous keyboard/display units. There were a number of different keyboard/display units made, with varying functions. There were two special Keyboard/display units (370 and 380) which had programming functionality in them, which would allow programs to be read from punched cards (370) or magnetic tape (380). These particular keyboard/display units are pretty hard to find. The other 300-series keyboard display units were the 300, 310, 320, and 360/362. These units varied in the number of math functions they provided. There were also four models of special keyboard/display units with diode ROMS and sequencers in them that would provide trigonometric functions (albeit slowly). These, too, are rather hard to find. The keyboard/display units have pretty simple circuitry inside them. It wouldn't be too hard to build some kind of microprocessor or microcontroller-based gizmo that would emulate the electronics package and bring a Keyboard/Display unit to life. You'd need some good math knowledge to implement the various math routines, but the interface is a very simple multiplexed BCD display, and a six-bit key code for each key, encoded by a diode matrix. You can lear more at http://oldcalculatormuseum.com/wang360.html. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jason T > Sent: Tuesday, September 04, 2007 3:45 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Wang 300 Calc > > I've got a line on one of these old Nixie-tube calculators at > a fair price. I know they used an outboard processor, making > them little more than (very pretty) terminals to a central > CPU. Are they of any use other than a doorstop or eye candy > for the collection? (And don't say "harvest them for the Nixies!") > > -- > jht > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Sep 4 18:52:57 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 17:52:57 -0600 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <51ea77730709041628w450fbcacv6b2ec4c4246521ac@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730709041544x4c1e5364n3bdf843f8ed6a9f2@mail.gmail.com> <46DDE868.60800@jetnet.ab.ca> <51ea77730709041628w450fbcacv6b2ec4c4246521ac@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46DDEFD9.8090807@jetnet.ab.ca> Jason T wrote: > On 9/4/07, woodelf wrote: > >> Well they still may be a good but slow calculator! >> At the original price they where built to last and are doing >> so still. >> Ben alias woodelf. > > But aren't they simply front-end units to a central processor? I > didn't think the 300 could do anything on it's own.. A quick google proves you are right. Well if you can't get the 'brain' part you are out of luck I guess. From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Tue Sep 4 18:54:07 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 16:54:07 -0700 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <51ea77730709041628w450fbcacv6b2ec4c4246521ac@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730709041544x4c1e5364n3bdf843f8ed6a9f2@mail.gmail.com> <46DDE868.60800@jetnet.ab.ca> <51ea77730709041628w450fbcacv6b2ec4c4246521ac@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46DDF01F.5050308@msm.umr.edu> Jason T wrote: >On 9/4/07, woodelf wrote: > > > >>Well they still may be a good but slow calculator! >>At the original price they where built to last and are doing >>so still. >>Ben alias woodelf. >> >> > >But aren't they simply front-end units to a central processor? I >didn't think the 300 could do anything on it's own.. > > > > there is a tabletop box with nixies and keys and switches. There is a box, not a mainframe that was about the size of a desktop in the case of the ones at UMR that several heads were connected to. I believe that they had payed in the tens of thousands for a unit with 5 or so heads and a card reader for entering programs, in 1970 dollars. I have seen both the head and the processor and a working unit on ebay, but not very often. I have one of the card reader units, but nothing else. Jim From oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org Tue Sep 4 19:11:22 2007 From: oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 18:11:22 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Reviving DEC RX01 power supply In-Reply-To: <1188949647.46ddee8fb7e53@www.jblaser.org> References: <1188949647.46ddee8fb7e53@www.jblaser.org> Message-ID: <1188951082.46ddf42a78e93@www.jblaser.org> Quoting J Blaser : > So, I guess it's a 'dynamic' issue, rather than a static one. Maybe the > load does matter. I'm going to try that next. > Success! Well, well, what do you know! A load does indeed make a difference. As suggested earlier (thanks guys!), I tried to scrounge around for something that I could use to load the PS. I thought I had a few vehicle headlamps, but short of stealing a couple from my car, I came up short. Hmmm......why can't I just use a regular household lightbulb? They're designed for 120v (or, as Tony pointed out, actually peak voltage of 170), right? I didn't expect to see light at just 24 or even 42 volts, but I figured I could easily replace a $1.98 light bulb if things went bad for me. Sure enough, just that simple addition to the circuit put things right. I read 27.5v and 11.5v on the two outputs in question. (And, no, I saw no light.) Though these voltages were not exactly spot on to the 'spec', they were close enough to convince me that I'd be safe attaching the PS to the PCBs. I took the plunge, and things are looking just fine. I'm now reading 24.8v and 9.7v with everything connected, which are pretty close to 'spec'. So, I guess there is some quirk in this particular PS that lets the voltage 'runaway' when not loaded. Even so, I'm now a happy camper with my incredibly powerful PDP-11/03 running with 64KB and four (count 'em....four!) RX01 devices for total storage of just under 1MB! That'll knock the socks off my neighborhood high- school computer whiz! I'll be the envy of town! ;-p Many thanks to all that helped me work through this. - Jared From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Sep 4 19:24:44 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 19:24:44 -0500 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <46DDEFD9.8090807@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <51ea77730709041544x4c1e5364n3bdf843f8ed6a9f2@mail.gmail.com> <46DDE868.60800@jetnet.ab.ca> <51ea77730709041628w450fbcacv6b2ec4c4246521ac@mail.gmail.com> <46DDEFD9.8090807@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <51ea77730709041724v1bfa83fcgcd20cc5ae3bdc7bc@mail.gmail.com> On 9/4/07, woodelf wrote: > A quick google proves you are right. Well if you can't get > the 'brain' part you are out of luck I guess. Ah, but it's still a cool-looking, 40+ year old box with a keypad and a bunch of Nixie tubes :) So maybe I'll go for it anyway. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Sep 4 19:24:01 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 01:24:01 +0100 Subject: British Computers. In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA7B@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA7B@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: <46DDF721.3080505@yahoo.co.uk> Rod Smallwood wrote: > So I can come along sit down and start knocking out some code then? > That might cause a crowd to collect. Then something dynamic. > Line printers thumping away, Paper tape reader on a long loop. > Tape punch doing a Woody Woodpecker. IBM 029 doing verify. > Two security guys dragging me out of the building. > The visitors would love that!! Heh :-) Being as hands-on as possible is still one of our primary goals - although there's always going to be caveats on what's left running, or what level of supervision any given system has of course, but for the majority of machines we actively encourage people to sit down and have a play. The best will in the world probably isn't going to keep this stuff operational much beyond a few decades, and I'm not sure if anyone really knows what's going to happen to the plastics a few more decades beyond that; whilst we have a duty to store inactive systems for future generations, it also seems wise to let people extract maximum enjoyment out of these systems now whilst they still can... cheers Jules From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Sep 4 20:30:11 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 19:30:11 -0600 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <51ea77730709041724v1bfa83fcgcd20cc5ae3bdc7bc@mail.gmail.com> References: <51ea77730709041544x4c1e5364n3bdf843f8ed6a9f2@mail.gmail.com> <46DDE868.60800@jetnet.ab.ca> <51ea77730709041628w450fbcacv6b2ec4c4246521ac@mail.gmail.com> <46DDEFD9.8090807@jetnet.ab.ca> <51ea77730709041724v1bfa83fcgcd20cc5ae3bdc7bc@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46DE06A3.1010007@jetnet.ab.ca> Jason T wrote: > Ah, but it's still a cool-looking, 40+ year old box with a keypad and > a bunch of Nixie tubes :) So maybe I'll go for it anyway. Or be creative ... Hide a calculator chip somewhere inside. Regardless make sure you have DOC's from somewhere. If they got the terminals who has the brain? They all came once as a set you know. Ben alias woodelf. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Sep 4 20:39:38 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 19:39:38 -0600 Subject: Reviving DEC RX01 power supply In-Reply-To: <1188951082.46ddf42a78e93@www.jblaser.org> References: <1188949647.46ddee8fb7e53@www.jblaser.org> <1188951082.46ddf42a78e93@www.jblaser.org> Message-ID: <46DE08DA.6070805@jetnet.ab.ca> J Blaser wrote: > Even so, I'm now a happy camper with my incredibly > powerful PDP-11/03 running with 64KB and four (count > 'em....four!) RX01 devices for total storage of just under > 1MB! That'll knock the socks off my neighborhood high- > school computer whiz! I'll be the envy of town! ;-p I don't want to see a 40 year nerd with no socks walking around ... Give me a 20 year old with no on making a quick dash instead. :) > Many thanks to all that helped me work through this. Would that be a standard system 4 RX01's? > - Jared PS. Nice to talk about a classic computers again. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Sep 4 20:41:15 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 18:41:15 -0700 Subject: Reviving DEC RX01 power supply In-Reply-To: <1188951082.46ddf42a78e93@www.jblaser.org> References: <1188949647.46ddee8fb7e53@www.jblaser.org>, <1188951082.46ddf42a78e93@www.jblaser.org> Message-ID: <46DDA6CB.13185.16BE6365@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Sep 2007 at 18:11, J Blaser wrote: > Well, well, what do you know! A load does indeed make > a difference. Well, the 24v is used primarily for the head positioner and the head- load solenoid, so its voltage isn't terribly critical. If you want to feel secure with a regulated voltage, try putting something like a 7824KC or 78H24 (2A, 24v) TO-3 regulator. But if your RX01 has lasted this long without, it's probably not important. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 4 21:04:45 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 19:04:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <46DDF01F.5050308@msm.umr.edu> References: <51ea77730709041544x4c1e5364n3bdf843f8ed6a9f2@mail.gmail.com> <46DDE868.60800@jetnet.ab.ca> <51ea77730709041628w450fbcacv6b2ec4c4246521ac@mail.gmail.com> <46DDF01F.5050308@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <20070904190222.Q46352@shell.lmi.net> On Tue, 4 Sep 2007, jim wrote: > I have one of the card reader units, but nothing else. If it's like the one that I have, and/or the one that I used briefly in about 1970, it is 40 column, using every other column of a standard IBM card, making the "port-a-punch" cards ideal for it. (If anybody here doesn't know what a "standard IBM card" is, go 'way.) From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Sep 4 21:25:47 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 22:25:47 -0400 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: <200709040013.UAA15725@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <20070904095010.f73591f2.hugh@blemings.org> <200709040013.UAA15725@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200709042225.47351.rtellason@verizon.net> On Monday 03 September 2007 19:59, der Mouse wrote: > > Meant to include this in my earlier post - > > > > Amongst the other "treasure" I've got a decent sized assortment of > > old Motorola, Fairchild, Texas Instruments, Ferranti and National > > Semiconductor Databooks. These are all for chips - analog parts, > > ECL, MECL, TTL, CMOS logic, Special Function Devices, Memories etc. > > Date range late 70's to early '90s. > > Interesting you mention that now. I just today found I have 22 tubes > of assorted DIPs. 16 of them I've been able to find enough info to > use, if I have a need for them - but there are six more I haven't. I > was going to write here and ask if anyone knows where to find specs > (including pinouts) for these - I spent some time with google, and even > checked bitsavers.org and vt100.net (neither of which seems to have > that kind of info - perhaps I missed something?). > > Specifically, what I have that's a mystery (/ represents a line break): > > MCM2016HN70 / HID8625 > CY7C409A-25PC / USA9225 91714 > GAL16V8A / 15LP / L218D16 I've no direct experience with these, but have heard of "GAL" chips, sort of like "PAL" chips is about all that comes to mind offhand. > MC14034B / CP QQ8318 This one I can pretty well identify. Motorola had already used their 4000 series numbers on some earlier TTL stuff so they couldn't use them after the 4000 series CMOS parts came out, therefore they tacked a 1 in front of the number. By any other maker that'd be a 4034. I'm pretty sure my parts pages have data on that one. (Try http://www.classiccmp.org/rtellason/by-generic-number.html ) > > If anyone knows of a better home for these than the paper recycling > > please let me know. > > I'd like to snag them myself, but I can't help suspecting it would cost > an unpleasant amount to get them clear around the globe. Indeed. > > My sense is that most of the data is available on the 'net now on the > > various archives. > > Perhaps, but I cahn't help wondering where. Got three DVDs full of datasheets here, I'm updating and organizing as fast as I can, as time permits. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From lee at geekdot.com Tue Sep 4 21:30:39 2007 From: lee at geekdot.com (Lee Davison) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 04:30:39 +0200 (CEST) Subject: PC/PCMCIA cards Message-ID: <1363.82.71.40.17.1188959439.squirrel@webmail.geekdot.com> IBM Turbo 16/4 Token-Ring PC Card 2 no lead IBM Turbo 16/4 Token-Ring PC Card no lead Toshiba V34 FAX Class II PCMCIA with lead Available for postage from UK Lee. From oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org Tue Sep 4 21:33:47 2007 From: oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 20:33:47 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Reviving DEC RX01 power supply Message-ID: <1188959627.46de158b81aa3@www.jblaser.org> woodelf said: > I don't want to see a 40 year nerd with no socks walking around ... > Give me a 20 year old with no on making a quick dash > instead. :) Ha! > Would that be a standard system 4 RX01's? I don't think so. This system appears to be circa 1977, and my oldest DEC handbook is from 1981, so doesn't even describe the old short, 4-slot BA-11M box that houses the CPU. But the handbook does describe a PDP-11/03 system with just the LSI-11 CPU, 8KW (16KB) and a single dual-drive RX01 storage subsystem. That would obviously be 'reasonably' the minimal system possible, I suppose. If you were a bit more willing to part with money, then you'd have an 11/23 CPU with one or even two RL01 5MB removable cartridge disks. Woohoo, huge step up in storage capacity! - Jared From frustum at pacbell.net Tue Sep 4 21:33:52 2007 From: frustum at pacbell.net (Jim Battle) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 21:33:52 -0500 Subject: AT&T PC6300 available, in Fort Worth, TX, USA Message-ID: <46DE1590.3070707@pacbell.net> Today I received an email from a gentleman in possession of an AT&T PC6300, wanting to know if I wanted it for the cost of shipping. I'm not interested in collecting PCs, so I said I'd pass it on to the list. Here is his description of the machine: (start of quote) As the original purchaser, I am seeking a new home for a pristine 1985 Personal Computer with peripherals, software, and original documentation. All were functioning perfectly in February 1998, when replaced and stored. All items are in their original boxes: AT&T PC6300 with 256KB RAM and two 5-1/4" floppy drives, Color Monitor, Keyboard, Mouse, and Citizen MSP-15 dot matrix printer with 8-1/2x11 and 11x15 tractor feed paper. As you know, this PC was the state of the art technology in 1985 and the best and fastest of the pre-"Windows" operating system platforms. It is an excellent representation depicting the end of the Dot Matrix and DOS eras. (end of quote) If you are interested, please mail me off-list at frustum at pacbell.net. I'll forward his contact information to you (I'd put it here, but some people reasonably don't like having their personal information stuck in a public forum archive). Thanks. From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Sep 4 21:34:22 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 22:34:22 -0400 Subject: Reviving DEC RX01 power supply In-Reply-To: <1188897142.46dd21762346f@www.jblaser.org> References: <1188897142.46dd21762346f@www.jblaser.org> Message-ID: <200709042234.22794.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 04 September 2007 05:12, J Blaser wrote: > > IIRC, the 'raw DC' is unregulated, just rectified and smoothed from the > > transformer. As is the 24V line. Both are about 1.7* what they should be. > > That's the strange thing to me. The two secondaries from the transformer > (one for the 24V line, and the other for the 10V line [which sources the > regulated 5V output]) are 'proper' at 27.8V and 11.2V, respectively. What > I don't understand is how a 24V line can suddenly produce 42V! It's like > something is 'pumping' the circuit, and I admit I have never studied how > such things work. What pops into my head on reading this is that you might possibly be seeing some sort of an artifact, if you're using a digital meter! > The funny thing is that the 5V regulation is working, even with 17V input > instead of 10V. > > > It's gettign late, so I'll not find the prints tonight. But IIRC, the > > transformer in this supply is a ferroresonant one, and that's what > > stabilises the 'raw' and 24V lines. What happens if the capacitor hung > > off that is defective? > > Fair point, but can a faulty capacitor 'pump' up the voltage like I'm > seeing? A faulty cap can have all sorts of noise, hum, hash, and other nonsense riding on top of the DC level, and that might (falsely) end up giving you a higher reading than what you'd expect. > > I suspect the last part is very ture. Actually replacing the faulty part > > is the easy bit :-) > > Hey, thanks for your confidence! :-) I can use a little outside support! > ;-) > > Let me add that this RX01 is the second of two RX01 units in this system. > When I went through the first one a week ago, it checked out fine...that is > I saw 25V/10.2v on the outputs, without a load. > > And you're not going to like this :-), but for an electronics novice, > tonight I followed my instinct and swapped the regulator PCBs between > units. Yup, the 'good' system's PCB now is putting out 42V and 17V! So, > it's not the regulation circuit, I guess, or any component on the two > system's PCBs. > > But after swapping the PS regulator PCBs, all that's left are the > transformer (which appears to be putting out 'expected' voltages), a 660V > AC capacitor thingy (which I obviously don't understand...is it part of the > ferrroresonance?) that only connects back to the transformer itself, and > the two smoothing caps (one for the 24V line and one for the 10V line). Is > it possible that one/both caps are 'pumping' the circuit? I'm > just too novice to know. One point about ferroresonant transformers -- that capacitor you mention is typically "selected" to go with that particular transformer. If you look, you'll probably find a small dot of the same color paint on both of them. > Another suggestion I received privately hints that putting a dummy load > on the PS might bring it into line, and that I will try. I have access to > an oscilloscope, and will put it on the thing, too, to see if I can > discover anything strange. One more point about ferroresonant transformers -- their output is often NOT sinewave, but a rather distorted waveform, that would tend to upset some meters, I'd think. Your scope should show you more of what's actually going on there. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org Tue Sep 4 21:46:22 2007 From: oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 20:46:22 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Reviving DEC RX01 power supply Message-ID: <1188960382.46de187e05f92@www.jblaser.org> Chuck said: > Well, the 24v is used primarily for the head positioner and the head- > load solenoid, so its voltage isn't terribly critical. This is good to know. I admit, I haven't gone through the RX01 logic PCB schematics. You've saved me some trouble. Thanks. > If you want to feel secure with a regulated voltage, try putting > something like a 7824KC or 78H24 (2A, 24v) TO-3 regulator. But if > your RX01 has lasted this long without, it's probably not important. Yes. I'm probably not worried enough to do this. Like you said, if this 30-year old system has survived all these years so far, it's probably going to be okay (unlike an RD53 that just failed on me, but that's another story....). - Jared From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Sep 4 21:48:27 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 21:48:27 -0500 Subject: Reviving DEC RX01 power supply In-Reply-To: <1188959627.46de158b81aa3@www.jblaser.org> References: <1188959627.46de158b81aa3@www.jblaser.org> Message-ID: On 9/4/07, J Blaser wrote: > If you were a bit more willing to part with money, then you'd > have an 11/23 CPU with one or even two RL01 5MB removable > cartridge disks. Woohoo, huge step up in storage capacity! I think you'd want a BA-11N to stick an RLV11 in there. I'm reasonably certain, from the top of my head, that a BA-11N has CD slots and the BA-11M does not, but I could easily be misremembering. My first -11 hard drive controller was an RLV11 that ran me about $100. I dropped into a BA-11N w/KDF11, DLV11J, MSV11-mumble (M8044), and LPV11 that all ran me $300 in 1986. I borrowed a VT220, an RL01, and an LA180 from my main PDP-8/a, I made a living on that -11 for almost two years. I still have it in a slightly improved form (I upgraded the backplane to 22-bit and threw more memory into it). I ran RT-11 v5.something on it for years (5.3?) Very nice system, but so is the OP's 11/03 w/floppy. RT-11 works fine on a floppy-only system. It works *great* on a hard-disk system. It was one of my favorite environments before I managed to scrape together my first UNIX system a few years later. -ethan From tpeters at mixcom.com Tue Sep 4 21:53:05 2007 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 21:53:05 -0500 Subject: Bug reports Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070904215140.0b2dfd08@localhost> I found this in my ancient documents collection. Thought it might have some reminiscence value. WORDSTAR 5.5 PROBLEM REPORTS Ed Zollars [72235,1234] Date: June 25, 1989 The following file summarizes some of the possible bug reports and undocumented features in the WordStar 5.5 editor. These listings apply to Revision A of WordStar 5.5 and represent only a summary of those items reported on the WordStar Forum on Compuserve. If you find any errors in this document, or believe you have found something else that should be included in this document, please post a message on the WordStar forum on Compuserve and I will work it into a new file. This file only summarizes problems and undocumented features with the editor itself--I have not attempted to describe possible problems with the printer drivers. I have attempted to give credit to the individuals who first posted the problem or undocumented feature on the WordStar forum--I apologize to anyone I left off. This file is meant to serve the same purpose for WordStar 5.5 that the BUGS.WS4 file written by Robert J. Sawyer did for WordStar 4, and that BUGWS5.COM does for WordStar 5.0. ---------------------------------------------------------------- BUGS AND DOCUMENTATION ERRORS ---------------------------------------------------------------- ADVANCED PAGE PREVIEW SHOWS LINE HEIGHT CHANGES TAKING PLACE ONE LINE HIGHER THAN THEY ACTUALLY DO: (Reported by Kurt Gebauer) Problem: Advanced Page preview shows a line height change as taking place one line before it actually will during printing. A line height command will actually control the amount of space after the line following the command--APP shows it as affecting the line preceding the command. ADVANCED PAGE PREVIEW WILL RESET A HERCULES INCOLOR CARD TO MONOCHROME MODE: (Reported by Gary Gibson) Problem: The README file indicates that you set colors for a Hercules InColor Card by using the PALETTE.COM program prior to entering WordStar. This will work just fine until the user enters page preview using ^OP. At that point the card will be reset to monochrome. AUTOMATIC LEADING DOES NOT CHANGE LINE HEIGHTS ON THE PROPER LINE: (Reported by Kurt Gebauer) Problem: When using automatic leading (.LH AUTO), line height changes on the line AFTER a font change is made, which is one line after it should in order to maintain proper spacing. Workaround: Trick WS55 by placing a font change on the end of the line before the line you want to use the new font. That will cause WordStar to use the proper spacing. WordStar International reports that this problem will be corrected in Revision C of the program, to be released at the beginning of July. AUTOPATCHING FROM A WORDSTAR 5.0 COPY WITHOUT REMOVING CERTAIN LABELS CAN CAUSE LOSS OF FILES: (Reported by James Burton/WordStar International) Problem: The following is taken directly from a message posted by James Burton. CAUTION must be used when creating a patch file in WordStar 5.0 and reading it into WordStar 5.5 with the Auto-Patcher in WSCHANGE. Some labels from WordStar 5.0 are obsolete and should be removed from a WordStar 5.0 patch file before it is read into 5.5; there is a list of these labels in README Section 20.2.1. One problem related to this: ^KQ can sometimes delete a file if WordStar 5.5 has been patched indiscriminately from a WordStar 5.0 Auto-Patch file. CURSOR POSITIONING FOR PROMPTS IS ERRATIC IN ROM BIOS MODE: (Reported by Chuck Christenson) Problem: The following description of a problem was posted by Chuck Christenson: On my HP150 (running in ROM BIOS mode), when a prompt is displayed onscreen, the cursor is typically positioned somewhere to the southeast of the field in which the response is supposed to be typed, and the response character is displayed onscreen where the cursor is positioned. This is sometimes cleared up when the screen is refreshed after the response is entered, and in any case can be cleared up by using ^\. CURSOR IS IMPROPERLY POSITIONED ON THE SCREEN FOLLOWING A GLOBAL REFORM: Problem: Following a global reform (^QU), the cursor is positioned at the top left corner of the screen, rather than at the end of the file. The cursor also refuses to respond to most positioning commands. Workaround: Press ^\ after doing a global reform. WSI is aware of this problem, and has announced that it should be fixed in the first inline release due at the end of June. CURSOR SIZING AND OVERWRITE MODE (Reported by Jim Gainsley) Problem: WordStar 5.5 includes a feature to set the cursor to differing sizes depending upon whether insert mode is on or off. Unfortunately, if insert mode is set off as the default, WordStar 5.5 won't set the cursor to the correct size upon entry into WordStar. The cursor will also be set to the incorrect size if you use Advanced Page Preview or run a DOS command while insert is set off. Workaround: If the cursor is out of synch, pressing ^V or insert twice will bring it back into agreement with the state of the insert mode. WSEX for WordStar 5.5 (a copyrighted free program available in Library 4 of the WordStar Forum on Compuserve) will fix this bug in most situations. WSI has announced that this bug should be fixed in the Revison C inline for WordStar 5.5, due out at the end of June. DELETING TO THE LEFT OF THE LINE (^Q) ON A LINE IMMEDIATELY BEFORE A PAGE BREAK CAN CAUSE THE LOSS OF THE LINE IMMEDIATELY ABOVE THE PAGE BREAK: (Reported by Roger Mayer) Problem: Attempting to delete to the left of the cursor on the line before a page break can result in WS deleting both the characters to the left of the cursor and the line above the page break. Also, the page break itself will disappear and can only be brought back with ^QR/^QP. Workaround: No real workaround except to remember to hit ^U to restore the deleted text if this happens to you. DISPLAY OF ENHANCEMENTS ON THE SCREEN IS IN ERROR WHEN A PRINT CONTROL IS WRAPPED ONTO COLUMN ONE: (Reported by Daniel A. Murphy) Problem: If you are editing a document and a print control code gets wrapped into the column one (as will happen if the first word affected by code happens to come at the beginning of the line), WordStar will display the wrong attributes on the screen for the code in question. For instance, if the code is a ^S for underlining, all the text on the screen that isn't going to be printed with underlines will be displayed with underling. Workaround: Hit ^\ when this happens. That causes WS to redraw the screen. When WS does that, it will "notice" the problem and correct it. EDITING A DOCUMENT FILE THAT USES STYLES IN NONDOCUMENT MODE WILL CAUSE A SYSTEM CRASH: Problem: If you open a document file in nondocument mode in WordStar, the program will freeze as you attempt to cursor past a style setting. WSI has acknowledged this problem and has announced plans to correct it in the Revision C inline upgrade for WS5.5, due out at approximately the end of June. ENTERING A LINE HEIGHT COMMAND IMMEDIATELY BEFORE A CONDITIONAL PAGE BREAK WILL CAUSE A CRASH: (Reported by James Burton/WordStar International) Problem: If you attempt to enter a line height command immediately before a conditional page break, the program will crash with a Divide Overflow. Note also that attempting to edit a line height command immediately preceding a conditional page break could cause the same problem. Workaround: Comment out the conditional page break before editing the line height command. It is best to move the line height command way from that position if at all possible, or to use a style to replace the line height command. WSI has acknowledged this problem and has announced plans to correct it in the Revision C inline upgrade for WS5.5, due out at approximately the end of June. FOOTNOTE SEPARATOR CANNOT BE SET TO AN UPPER ASCII (> 128) VALUE IN WSCHANGE. (Reported by Robert Vanatta) Problem: If you attempt to use a character in the upper ASCII set (like the line drawing horizontal bar) as your footnote separator, WS will strip off the high bit and treat the character as its lower ASCII equivalent. FINAL PAGE OF A DOCUMENT IS NOT EJECTED IN SOME CASES: (Reported by Robert H. Herrin) Problem: If pause between pages is turned on when printing, WordStar will not eject the last page (at least when using certain daisy wheel printers). FUNCTION KEY LABELS DISAPPEAR AFTER SELECTING A PRINTER: (Reported by Jerry Cudmore) Problem: When a printer is selected with ^P?, the function key labels will disappear from the bottom of the screen. Workaround: Hit ^\ to force a repainting of the screen. The function key labels will reappear. This problem has been acknowledged by WSI, and is supposed to be fixed in the Revision C inline version of WS5.5, due out at the end of June. GLOBAL REFORM WILL NOT UPDATE THE SCREEN WHILE RUNNING EVEN IF THE OPTION IS SET IN WSCHANGE: (Reported by Robert Vannatta) Problem: If you turn on the option in WSCHANGE to cause WS to not suppress the display when doing a global reform (^QU), the program will not properly show the reform taking place. While the cursor will move up and down the screen, no text will be rewritten. Workaround: None. This problem has been acknowledged by WordStar International and will be fixed in the Revision C inline upgrade to WS5.5, which should be released at the beginning of July. HIGH BITS ARE BEING STRIPPED OFF FILES WHEN THEY ARE SAVED FROM NONDOCUMENT MODE: (Reported by Robert J. Sawyer) Problem: If you load a file that contains "high bit" characters (ECS characters) that aren't surrounded by the appropriate WS document mode fence characters (such as a file downloaded from a BBS), WS will strip off the high bits when it saves the file. Note that WS has always displayed such characters as if the high bits were gone, but it used to still save the high bits unless you explicitly issued a ^QU to clear those bits. Workaround: The following patch was posted by James Burton of WordStar International on the forum to fix this problem: You reported that nondocument mode was stripping high bits on saving. I've been provided with a patch for that effect, to wit: REN WS.EXE WS DEBUG WS -R (Check the DS register and add 2000 to its value,.ie., 3237+2000=5237. Let nnnn = the result). -E nnnn:74B0 (you'll see): .7F . (Enter): FF -W -Q Rename the file back to WS.EXE and you should be fixed. This problem is also fixed in the current version of WSEX that is available in Library 4 of the WordStar forum on Compuserve. WordStar International has acknowledged this problem, and it will be fixed in the Revision C inline that will be available at the beginning of July. HIJAAK TRANSLATED GRAPHICS FILES SOMETIMES CAN'T BE DISPLAYED BY PAGE PREVIEW: (Reported by Robert J. Sawyer) Problem: Some Hijaak translated files (some TIFF format files have been implicated) will not be displayed in APP, and instead you will receive an improper graphic format complaint. The graphic will print fine, and you can use Inset to preview the graphic on the text screen. ITALICIZING TEXT THAT HAS BEEN BOLDED WITH A STYLE DOES NOT WORK CONSISTENTLY: (Reported by Robert J. Sawyer) Problem: If text has been set to boldface by using a style, you may not get italicized text if you attempt to set italics with ^PY. Workaround: If you encounter this situation, use hard formatting (^PB) to set boldface rather than using the style. WordStar International has acknowledged the problem, and this will be corrected in the Revision C inline upgrade available at the beginning of July. LEFT MARGIN SET TO LARGE NUMBER THAT IS WIDER THAN THE RIGHT MARGIN WILL RESULT IN AN INFINITE RIGHT MARGIN WHEN LEFT MARGIN IS CORRECTED: (Reported by Mark Peterson) Problem: If you happen to enter a large left margin value (such as 150) that is greater than the right margin, WordStar will reset the right margin to an infinite length. This can easily happen if you work with insert on and go to the dot command line to change the left margin. For instance, if you typed in ".LM 10" as your original right margin command, then went back to change it to 20, you might place your cursor on the 1, type a 2 and then delete the 1. When you do this, you will find your right margin has been reset to an infinite length. Workaround: Return to the top of the file (^QR) then return to your old edit position (^QP). This will force WS to reread the dot commands and set its margins accordingly. LINES IN THE MIDDLE OF PARAGRAPHS IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWING A PAGE BREAK ARE MISALIGNED AT TIMES ON THE SCREEN: (Reported by Peter Mierau) Problem: If a paragraph spans a page break and the left margin is set to a value other than zero, the first line following the page will be offset approximately twice as much as it should be to the left on the screen. The printout is not affected, and Advanced Page Preview shows that the line is properly aligned. This doesn't always happen when reforming across a page break, but will eventually appear if you edit the paragraph. Workaround: You can force WS to move the line back if you want the onscreen display to be correct. Turn on soft space display (^OB) and print control code display (^OD). You will see two "tabs" to the left of the first character. Go to the left margin and delete BOTH of them--WS should reform the line with just one of these characters. WordStar International has acknowledged this problem and it should be fixed in the Revision C inline upgrade, to be available in early July. LOGGING ONTO A NEW DIRECTORY WHILE EDITING A DOCUMENT FOR THE FIRST TIME WILL CAUSE THE FILE TO BE SAVED IMPROPERLY: (Reported by Robert J. Sawyer) Problem: If the directory is changed with ^KL while editing a brand new document that has not previously been saved, exiting the document with ^KD will cause the document to be saved with the proper filename, but with the temporary file extension of $B$. That name will flash briefly on the status line during the save when this problem is encountered. The $B$ file will not be visible in a WordStar directory listing (unless the default exclusion list has been changed). Attempting to edit this file will cause an immediate loss of the information in the file. This problem has also been reported by other users in slightly different circumstances. Workaround: If you do create the $B$ file, rename the file and then edit it as normal in WordStar. You can protect yourself from deleting the file accidentally by setting up WordStar through WSCHANGE as if it is being used on a multiuser system--then when it detects the presence of the $B$ files, it will refuse to edit the file. PAGE PREVIEW AT TIMES SHOWS THE WRONG FONT WHEN THIRD PARTY FONTS ARE ADDED: (Reported by Robert J. Sawyer) Problem: At times, Page Preview will show a number of your third party fonts which you have generated screen for as the same font in the preview page. Workaround: From a message left by Richard Zuris of WordStar International: Page Preview gets confused by some fonts and puts in the wrong font code in FONTID.CTL. The font code is a four- character hexademinal word that comes at the end of the line where the font is listed in FONTID. This number is supposed to be read from the PDF. You can read it from the PDF and straighten FONTID out yourself. In PDFEDIT, select Typestyle/font information, choose a typeface, then hit enter on "Key (# and characteristics)." This reveals the font code, which can be used in FONTID to replace the incorrect number the. The symptom of having wrong font codes in FONTID is that all of your third-party (i.e., LSRFONTS-generated) fonts will display in Preview with the style/face of whatever the LAST font is in the FONTID list. PARAGRAPH NUMBERING SOMETIMES SHOWS IMPROPER NUMBERS ON THE SCREEN: (Reported by Thomas J. River) Problem: At times, the paragraph numbers shown on the screen contain incorrect values. Workaround: Go out to Page Preview or go to the top of the file and return (^QR^QP). That should restore the proper onscreen numbering. PHRASES MARKED FOR INDEXING WITH ^PK THAT WRAP OVER TWO LINES WHERE THE LEFT MARGIN IS NOT 1 WILL NOT INDEX PROPERLY: (Reported by Robert J. Sawyer) Problem: If the left margin is set to a value other than one and ^PK is used to mark a phrase for indexing, a problem can occur if the phrase is split over two lines. Workaround: Use ^ONI to indicate phrase index entries in areas of text where the left margin will be other than 1. PRCHANGE WILL NOT GENERATE PROPER SCREEN FONTS IF A FONT IS AVAILABLE ONLY IN BOLDFACE: (Reported by Robert J. Sawyer) Problem: If you allow PRCHANGE to generate screen fonts in a case where some of the fonts are available only in boldface, you will lose the ability to display any fonts in boldface in page preview. Workaround: First install only those fonts that have standard weight fonts available. Generate those screen fonts and exit PRCHANGE. Later, reenter PRCHANGE and add the other fonts. DO NOT generate screen fonts for these fonts, but instead use the defaults. PREVIEW CRASHES IF INSET IS LOADED AND A GRAPHIC EXISTS ON THE PAGE: (Reported by Robert P. Vannatta) Problem: If Inset has been loaded as a TSR (from the DOS command line and not using ^P&), attempting to preview a graphic will cause WS to lock up, requiring a reboot. Workaround: Inset should not be loaded as a TSR when working inside WordStar. PRINT COMMAND SOMETIMES FAILS TO WORK ON COMPLICATED DOCUMENTS: Problem: The "P"rint command from the main menu sometimes fails when confronted with a complicated document to print. For example, most users have had problems using the "P"rint command to print out the WSEX 1.05 documentation. The program will freeze at certain points in the printing process, requiring a reboot. Workaround: Use the merge command to print the file. Merge has not had the problems the print command has had in printing the files. As a practical matter, the merge command can be used as the "standard" printing system for WS5.5, unless you intentionally want to supress the action of merge commands. PRINTING WHEN THERE IS A "MODE=LPT1:,,p" IN EFFECT WILL CAUSE A SYSTEM HANG: Problem: If your AUTOEXEC.BAT file contains a MODE setting for LPT1 that includes the "p" parameter or you later invoke that command while working with your computer, WordStar will hang when you attempt to print. Workaround: Don't use the MODE command in this manner. WSI has announced that this bug will be fixed in the first inline for WordStar 5.5 (scheduled for the end of June). RECURSIVE MACROS CANNOT BE EXITED WITH ^U IN SOME CIRCUMSTANCES: (Reported by Jerry Cudmore) Problem: If WordStar is given a macro that calls itself (a recursive macro), you may not be able to stop execution the macro with ^U and will find that the only way out is to reboot the machine. Workaround: Put a ^P in the repeating portion of the macro. During the execution of that command, WS will check the keyboard buffer for a ^U. Since the command does nothing, it has no real effect on the macro. SEARCHING FOR A CARRIAGE RETURN BY ITSELF CAUSES AN UNUSUAL DISPLAY IF THE FOUND CARRIAGE RETURN IS AT THE END OF A PAGE: (Reported by Robert J. Sawyer) Problem: If the search function is looking for a bare carriage return (^M^J), when it finds one at the end of a page the display will be corrupted. Workaround: Press ^\ when the display is corrupted--the actual text in your file has not been damaged, and ^\ will update the screen to reflect this fact. SETTING EDITING VALUES IN WSCHANGE APPEARS TO HAVE NO EFFECT: (Reported by James Burton/WordStar International) Problem: The following comment was posted by James Burton on the forum message board: Resetting some default values in WSCHANGE will appear to have no effect while editing. This is because the Body Text Paragraph Style currently overrides those settings (left and right margins, tabs, default font, etc.). To set defaults for those parameters, make the changes to the Body Text Style and save them to the library. This is covered on the OOPS sheet that came with the package. SETTING THE HELP LEVEL TO AN ERRONEOUS VALUE CAUSES AN ERRONEOUS ERROR MESSAGE TO BE ISSUED: (Reported by Robert J. Sawyer) Problem: If you type an invalid response (such as a letter) when attempting to change help levels using ^JJ, WordStar will respond with an error message that states "Only numbers and the + and - characters are valid". In fact, the + and - signs are also invalid. SOFT FORMATTING DOES NOT WORK (Reported by Elias Davis) Problem: If you have turned off the insertion of dot commands in WSCHANGE, WordStar will not change margins when you exit the tabs & margins dialogue box. Workaround: There really isn't one, except to go ahead and insert hard formatting codes into the document, or define and use a style. STYLES SOMETIMES DON'T TAKE EFFECT DEPENDING UPON THEIR POSITION IN THE LINE: (Reported by Robert J. Sawyer) Problem: Style sheet attributes sometimes don't take effect depending upon their position with regard to soft spaces in the line. Workaround: Try moving the style in the line if you encounter this problem. The best place to put a style code is at the beginning of a line. STAR EXCHANGE IGNORES STYLE SHEET SETTINGS: (Reported by Elias Davis) Problem: Star Exchange does not pick up changes that are made to a WordStar file through the use of styles. The last hard formatting command entered will control the translated formatting. Workaround: Any document that is to be shipped to another format using Star Exchange should be formatted with dot commands, and *not* with styles. TABS CANNOT BE CONVERTED FROM LEFT ALIGNED TO DECIMAL: (Reported by Jerry Cudmore) Problem: If a tab is first entered with the ruler line showing the tab as left aligned, changing the tab in the ruler line to a decimal tab will not cause the text to align correctly, even after reforming. Workaround: Delete the tab and reenter it. WSSETUP DOES NOT WORK CORRECTLY WITH DOS 4.0X IF SHARE.EXE IS LOADED: (Reported by John Jurewicz) Problem: DOS 4.0x users with large hard disk partitions (greater than 32 Meg.) have reported problems running WSSETUP. The conflict appears to be with the SHARE.EXE that DOS 4.0x loads to support the larger partition. WSSETUP will report that it can't find WINSTALL.HLP and won't recognize the Advanced Customization Disk. Workaround: The only way around this one is to do a manual installation, copying your files from the distribution disks to the hard drive. Some users have reported success by removing SHARE.EXE from their CONFIG.SYS and using DOS 4.0's automatic load (by having SHARE.EXE in the root directory). Apparently the automatic load does not cause conflicts with WSSETUP. WordStar International has acknowledged the problem, and the Revision C inline (due out at the beginning of July) should fix this problem with WSSETUP. ---------------------------------------------------------------- UNDOCUMENTED FEATURES ---------------------------------------------------------------- ^] TO REDUCE SIZE OF SECOND WINDOW (Reported by Robert J. Sawyer) Description: If you are using a help level of 3 or lower, you can use ^] to reduce the size of the second window. At help level 4 this command puts the cursor on the pull down window line (performs like Alt-Space). ^L IN DIALOGUE BOXES: (Reported by Robert J. Sawyer) Description: WordStar 5 will let you use ^L to move backwards through a dialogue box, in addition to the Shift-Tab command that is documented. ^O? DISPLAYS MEMORY USAGE: (Reported by Peter Mierau) Description: The undocumented ^O? command will display the amount of memory usage of WordStar while editing a document. In addition, it displays the current language in use and whether Inset is currently loaded. ^P1 - ^P9 FOR EXTENDED CHARACTERS: (Reported by Robert J. Sawyer) Description: In addition to using ^P0 to call up the ECS entry window, you can call up the window by hitting any of the other number keys after hitting ^P. The number you hit will be automatically entered as the first number in the dialogue box. ^Q~--SET INSERT MODE AND DON'T FLUSH BUFFER Description: When WS5 receives this command, it automatically turns insert on and disables the flushing of the keyboard buffer that WS normally does until the buffer is empty. This command is useful for external keyboard enhancers that need to be able to disable WS5's keyboard buffer flushing and want insert mode set on. This command is not new in WS5, but existed in Release 4. ^QU WILL CONVERT A FILE TO ASCII IN NONDOCUMENT MODE: (Reported by Chuck Christenson) Description: ^QU will remove the WS5 header from a document file, convert tabbed symmetrical sequences to spaces, remove all other symmetrical sequences and strip off any high bits set in the file. What it does not do is remove print control codes (like ^PB, ^PS, etc.). CONFIGURATION FILES CAN BE USED WITH WORDSTAR 5.5: (Reported by James Burton/WordStar International) Description: Beginning with the 09x releases of WordStar 5.0, configuration files were supported. These files allow you to put together various patched versions of WS without having to have an entire extra copy of WS on your hard drive. In Release 5.5 they appear to have disappeared again, but you can get them back. The steps to use are taken from a message from James Burton of WordStar International Corporation that is listed below: Run WINSTALL, select WSCHANGE. (Don't just run WSCHANGE). Select E for Patching. Hit "=", enter the label MPMFLG. Add 4 to the left digit of the first byte, i.e.: 30 +4 =70 Enter the result. Hit "." to display the change. Hit "X", "^X", and "Y" to exit and save changes. As you leave WSCHANGE, you'll hit the CFG selection screen. The current setup sort of locks you in to using CFG files, but I personally have not found this to be a burden. Additional information: CFG files cannot be used to define the default paths for WordStar. WS will continue to use the defaults that were set in the WS.EXE file before you switch to CFG files. DOUBLE UNDERLINING CAN BE FULLY IMPLEMENTED USING ".XX_": (Reported by Robert J. Sawyer) Description: The WordStar manual and the PRINT.TST file says that if the user sets the strikeout character to "_" and then surrounds the text to be double underlined with both ^X and ^S characters, the text will be double underlined. All that is necessary is the ^PX command--once you reassign the strikeout character to "_", WS will do all of the work of building a true double underline character. If you set your default in WSCHANGE to make the strikeout character "_", then by default ^PX will invoke double underlining. FILES CAN BE SELECTIVELY INCLUDED IN THE FILE DIRECTORY: (Reported by Peter Mierau) Description: If you want to include files with extensions listed in the NOTYPE table in the default directory rather than exclude them, you can patch the undocumented USETYP flag to do so. FONTID.CTL IS AN ASCII FILE THAT CAN BE EDITED USING NONDOCUMENT MODE TO CONTROL VARIOUS DEFAULTS IN ADVANCED PAGE PREVIEW: Description: The FONTID.CTL file that is copied to your hard disk during the installation of Advanced Page Preview is a pure ASCII file that can be edited in nondocument mode. This file allows setting the type of graphics adapter that WS should use (rather than allowing WS to autosense the adapter), the aspect ratio that should be used by APP for displaying text, the type of grid that should be displayed when on is requested (6 per inch, 10 per inch, or 4 per inch) and the page size. CAUTION: Do not allow edit this file in document mode--if you do, WordStar will most likely freeze at your first attempt to preview text. I would strongly suggest that you make a backup of the FONTID.CTL file before attempting to modify values in the file. LANGUAGE TABLES ENTRIES MUST BE INSTALLED FOR ALL MEMBERS OF A FONT FAMILY IF IT IS INSTALLED FOR ANY: (Reported by Jim Gainsley) Description: When using PDFEDIT to change a font, if a symbol set table is added for one variety of the font, it must be defined for all varieties of that font. Failure to do this will cause error messages to be generated at print time and possibly enter the printout. LINE HEIGHT CAN BE SET IN POINTS: (Reported by Ed Zollars) Description: Line height can be set in points by using the fact that WordStar allows mathematical equations to be placed in most dot commands. To set a line height in points, the following dot command is entered: .lh n/72" where n is replaced by an appropriate point value. LINE NUMBERING UNDOCUMENTED FEATURES: (Reported by Gary Gibson) Description: The following excerpt is from a message left by Gary Gibson on the forum about line numbering: 1. The last byte in the INIEDT patch area controls the line numbering defaults. PATCH.LST file's comments describe this, but they don't say that bits 0-6 of this byte control the DEFAULT value for the "spacing". As released, this value is zero. If set non-zero, all documents are line numbered by default UNLESS you turn it off (.l# 0) at the top of a page. Also, this isn't really "spacing", but an indication that for spacing=n, every nth line is numbered, the others just have the bars. The manual also shows only values 0, 1, and 2. Values up to 127 work just fine. 2. You can omit the "style" in the .l# command: .l# p1 and .l# 1 are the same. 3. Unusual "column" values have unusual results, like fractional values or a column value of 32768. MAILLIST CAN USE DEF FILES FROM THE OLD DATASTAR PROGRAM: (Reported by Phil Burnside and Ed Greenberg) Description: MailList can use the "DEF" files from the old DataStar program. You can also use FORMGEN to edit and create DEF files for MailList. DataStar was sold by itself and as part of the old InfoStar database package that MicroPro used to sell. MARGINS IN A DIALOGUE BOX CAN BE SET IN COLUMNS: (Reported by Peter Mierau) Description: If you add an "R" after the setting, WS5 will interpret your setting entered in the margins & tabs dialogue box as being expressed in characters. ONSCREEN JUSTIFICATION CAN BE SUPPRESSED WHILE STILL JUSTIFYING THE OUTPUT BY USING AN ALWAYS FALSE CONDITIONAL COMMAND: (Reported by Ed Zollars, based upon an idea discussed by Mojo Jones and Ed Greenberg for use with WordStar 2000) Description: The fact that WordStar doesn't evaluate conditional commands until print time can be used to suppress the onscreen display of justified text. The following dot commands will result in unjustified text appearing on the screen, but the output being justified. .OJ ON .IF 10#=5 .OJ OFF .EI This solution can also be used to set up onscreen rulers that allow all of the text to be seen on the screen, while actually using a different ruler for printing purposes. In that case, you probably will need to add a ".PF ON" command at the top of the file to force WordStar to reform the paragraphs at print time. "POINT AND SHOOT" WORKS TO CHANGE DIRECTORIES IN HELP LEVEL 4: (Reported by Ed Zollars) Description: If WordStar is working in help level 4, you can change the current directory from the opening menu by moving the cursor into the directory listing (using the down arrow or ^X). If you point at a directory name, WS will log onto that directory. If you point at a filename, WS will open it up to edit. Remember that selecting ".." directory in the directory display will take you back one level in the directory tree. RELATIVE VALUES ARE SUPPORTED IN A NUMBER OF DOT COMMANDS BESIDES THOSE LISTED IN THE MANUAL: (Reported by Gary Gibson) Description: You can use a "+" or "-" value for a number of dot commands besides the left margin and right margin dot commands that are documented. Specifically, you can change the line height by using "+" and "-" to change it relative to the last setting. SPELL CHECKS PERFORMED ON NONDOCUMENT FILES WILL CHECK DOT COMMANDS: (Reported by Robert Vannatta) Description: If you run the spelling check while in non-document mode, text in dot commands will be spell-checked. UNDOCUMENTED KEYS ON THE OPENING MENU: (Reported by Gary Gibson): Description: Although not listed on the menu, the H, W and Z keys will have certain affects when the Opening Menu is displayed. "H" will take you directly to the change help level screen (the equivalent of pressing "JJ" using the officially listed commands). Pressing W or Z will cause the file directory to scroll in the appropriate direction without having to hold down the control key. VERSION 5.0 PRINTER CAN BE USED WITH VERSION 5.5 WITH CERTAIN LIMITATIONS: (Reported by James Burton/WordStar International) Description: The following is from a message posted by James Burton on the forum: Can you use a WordStar 5.0 Printer Definition File (PDF) with WordStar 5.5? Yes, although there are limitations. First, you can't use the Auto Leading feature (.LH A) with these PDFs. Second, you can't use WordStar 5.5 PDFEDIT to edit them; the PDF format has changed slightly to accommodate the addition of previewed graphics. ----- 976. Any teacher that can be replaced by a computer, deserves to be. -- David Thornburg --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Sep 4 21:54:24 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 22:54:24 -0400 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <20070904190222.Q46352@shell.lmi.net> References: <51ea77730709041544x4c1e5364n3bdf843f8ed6a9f2@mail.gmail.com> <46DDF01F.5050308@msm.umr.edu> <20070904190222.Q46352@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200709042254.24446.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 04 September 2007 22:04, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Tue, 4 Sep 2007, jim wrote: > > I have one of the card reader units, but nothing else. > > If it's like the one that I have, and/or the one that I used briefly in > about 1970, it is 40 column, using every other column of a standard IBM > card, making the "port-a-punch" cards ideal for it. > > (If anybody here doesn't know what a "standard IBM card" is, go 'way.) Hollerith or those smaller ones that came along a bit later? :-) Been a long time since I've seen one of any variety, now that you mention it, though. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Sep 4 22:41:25 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 22:41:25 -0500 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: <200709042225.47351.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <20070904095010.f73591f2.hugh@blemings.org> <200709040013.UAA15725@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <200709042225.47351.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: On 9/4/07, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > GAL16V8A / 15LP / L218D16 > > I've no direct experience with these, but have heard of "GAL" chips, sort of > like "PAL" chips is about all that comes to mind offhand. GALs and PALs are similar devices, with a few key differences... PALs are bipolar devices, and are programmable once. GALs are made of newer technologies, like FLASH or EAROMs, thus can be erased and reprogrammed a number of times. PALs come in pre-coded flavors like 10L6 or 16H2, meaning 10 inputs with 6 low-true outputs or 16 inputs and 2 high-true outputs. With PALs, you took a fistful of your equations, then you, yourself, picked a part in which the equations would fit. To make a complex product, you might have 6 or 8 or 10 flavors of PALs in the same design. GALs are "Generic Arrayed Logic", thus are not pre-configured for certain geometries. A small part would routinely be described as a 16V8, meaning _up to_ 16 inputs and _up to_ 8 outputs, with Versatile choice of high true or low true for the outputs (also there were "registered" PALs like the 16R4 with flip-flops on the outputs for clocking or latching - GAL outputs are also optionally "registered"). In the early 1980s, PALs were popular because one PAL could replace a dozen TTL parts. GALs became popular because you only had to stock one type of 18-pin part, one type of 20-pin part, one type of 24-pin part, etc., rather than well over a dozen non-interchangable, non-reprogrammable parts. Eventually, even GALs were too simplistic for most professional product designs, but they are still popular with hobby projects - look at the Spare Time Gizmos line to see how easy it is to make GAL-based projects. GALs are still readily available for $1 or less. I don't think they've made PALs in a large number of years (not that there aren't still millions of loose parts on the resale market). Hope that illuminates more than obscures, -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Sep 4 23:23:58 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 4 Sep 2007 21:23:58 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <200709042254.24446.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <51ea77730709041544x4c1e5364n3bdf843f8ed6a9f2@mail.gmail.com> <46DDF01F.5050308@msm.umr.edu> <20070904190222.Q46352@shell.lmi.net> <200709042254.24446.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20070904212117.C51118@shell.lmi.net> > > (If anybody here doesn't know what a "standard IBM card" is, go 'way.) On Tue, 4 Sep 2007, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Hollerith or those smaller ones that came along a bit later? :-) The ones with circuit traces and components on them, and a 62 position .1" edge connector near the end with the bracket. > Been a long time since I've seen one of any variety, now that you mention it, > though. At the college, they still have a few odds and ends of forms printed on what used to be "Hollerith" cards. From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Sep 4 23:56:28 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 00:56:28 -0400 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: References: <20070904095010.f73591f2.hugh@blemings.org> <200709042225.47351.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200709050056.28319.rtellason@verizon.net> On Tuesday 04 September 2007 23:41, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Hope that illuminates more than obscures, Sure. I have a bunch of PALs around, mostly pulls from a bunch of XT-class machines that Zenith made, and it's debatable whether there will ever be a use for them. GALs, on the other hand, sound like they'be be useful for all sorts of things. I should probably seek out some data on these parts, or even a databook, somewhere. Got any pointers to specific numbers? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Tue Sep 4 23:57:57 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 00:57:57 -0400 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <20070904212117.C51118@shell.lmi.net> References: <51ea77730709041544x4c1e5364n3bdf843f8ed6a9f2@mail.gmail.com> <200709042254.24446.rtellason@verizon.net> <20070904212117.C51118@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <200709050057.57310.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 05 September 2007 00:23, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > (If anybody here doesn't know what a "standard IBM card" is, go 'way.) > > On Tue, 4 Sep 2007, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > Hollerith or those smaller ones that came along a bit later? :-) > > The ones with circuit traces and components on them, and a 62 position .1" > edge connector near the end with the bracket. Aw, now see if you'd stuck "peecee" in there someplace I would've interpreted it that way... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Wed Sep 5 00:23:29 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 22:23:29 -0700 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <20070904190222.Q46352@shell.lmi.net> References: <51ea77730709041544x4c1e5364n3bdf843f8ed6a9f2@mail.gmail.com> <46DDE868.60800@jetnet.ab.ca> <51ea77730709041628w450fbcacv6b2ec4c4246521ac@mail.gmail.com> <46DDF01F.5050308@msm.umr.edu> <20070904190222.Q46352@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <46DE3D51.4010002@msm.umr.edu> Fred Cisin wrote: >On Tue, 4 Sep 2007, jim wrote: > > >>I have one of the card reader units, but nothing else. >> >> > >If it's like the one that I have, and/or the one that I used briefly in >about 1970, it is 40 column, using every other column of a standard IBM >card, making the "port-a-punch" cards ideal for it. > >(If anybody here doesn't know what a "standard IBM card" is, go 'way.) > > > We could punch the cards on a standard keypunch, though I never did when I was in school with an operational unit. I didn't peer inside the card unit I have to see what the spacing was. It reads whatever it does from the card without moving the card, via static means. YOu slide in the card, and leave it, then "read" it via whatever means from the calculator keyboard, but the card is sensed in place. Again as you mention and I observed a couple of weeks ago, there are those who have no idea what the use of cards are, nor have they seen one punched, or a working device to do so. It was a lot of fun to punch some cards for the children on my 129 keypunch. Wish I had a working IBM reader to read them on, but I'll have to settle for the M1000 Documation, and Hercules. And no, these are the paper hollerith cards, not the ones with the 62 pin edge connectors :-) Jim From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 5 00:35:12 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 22:35:12 -0700 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: References: <20070904095010.f73591f2.hugh@blemings.org>, <200709042225.47351.rtellason@verizon.net>, Message-ID: <46DDDDA0.8224.17949046@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Sep 2007 at 22:41, Ethan Dicks wrote: > GALs and PALs are similar devices, with a few key differences... PALs > are bipolar devices, and are programmable once. GALs are made of > newer technologies, like FLASH or EAROMs, thus can be erased and > reprogrammed a number of times. ...and all of the relatives, such as EPLD and PEEL. Out of vogue today, but really cool when they first came out--and a foreshadowing of FPGAs and CPLD. Still can be very handy for fitting a medium- hairy functionality into a 20-pin DIP. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 5 00:40:39 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 22:40:39 -0700 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <46DE3D51.4010002@msm.umr.edu> References: <51ea77730709041544x4c1e5364n3bdf843f8ed6a9f2@mail.gmail.com>, <20070904190222.Q46352@shell.lmi.net>, <46DE3D51.4010002@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <46DDDEE7.25424.17998B13@cclist.sydex.com> On 4 Sep 2007 at 22:23, jim wrote: > And no, these are the paper hollerith cards, not the ones with the 62 > pin edge connectors :-) There was a paper/mylar-based capacitive ROM used for high-speed applications on some 60's computers. Basically, you did the same thing--punched holes where you wanted 1's. Cheers, Chuck From derschjo at msu.edu Tue Sep 4 21:36:41 2007 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 19:36:41 -0700 Subject: 68k Mac development environments Message-ID: <46DE1639.6080400@msu.edu> Hi all -- I'm looking to do a bit of (simple) development targeting a 68k Mac (or two, or three, or six...) and since I've never done any programming on a Mac before I'm curious if anyone out there has any recommendations for a development environment to use or to avoid. I'd prefer C/C++, but I'm flexible :). I'd like to be able to run my code on a Mac Classic/SE (so I need to be able to compile to 68000 code) but I'll be doing the development itself on a IIfx. In case you're interested, I'm writing the software to build a clock of sorts out of a set of six "classic" form factor Macs I have lying around (two Classics, two SEs and two SE/30s). Each computer will display one digit of the time, and will be synchronized over an Appletalk network to keep the system times in sync. Or so goes the theory. Figure it'll be a fun display to have set up, and a somewhat interesting use for some otherwise-idle Macintosh hardware :). Thanks for any suggestions... - Josh From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Tue Sep 4 22:01:50 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 04:01:50 +0100 Subject: British Computers. Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA8C@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Seriously though.a lecture plus demo of programming (next performance 3:30) Might enhance things a bit. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of woodelf Sent: 04 September 2007 20:46 To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: British Computers. Rod Smallwood wrote: > So I can come along sit down and start knocking out some code then? > That might cause a crowd to collect. Then something dynamic. > Line printers thumping away, Paper tape reader on a long loop. > Tape punch doing a Woody Woodpecker. IBM 029 doing verify. > Two security guys dragging me out of the building. > The visitors would love that!! > > Rod Well if you have Hard Drives Dancing to music from the *DISCO* panel lights, I am sure you would have I nice padded cell waiting for you as well. Ben Alias Woodelf PS.With Broadcast Band Valve Radio Blasting away the DISCO music from the CPU,I guess the security just don't like music. :) From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Wed Sep 5 01:39:53 2007 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 07:39:53 +0100 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <46DDDEE7.25424.17998B13@cclist.sydex.com> References: <51ea77730709041544x4c1e5364n3bdf843f8ed6a9f2@mail.gmail.com> , <20070904190222.Q46352@shell.lmi.net>, <46DE3D51.4010002@msm.umr.edu> <46DDDEE7.25424.17998B13@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1188974393.20635.5.camel@ljw.me.uk> On Tue, 2007-09-04 at 22:40 -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > There was a paper/mylar-based capacitive ROM used for high-speed > applications on some 60's computers. Basically, you did the same > thing--punched holes where you wanted 1's. Totally unrelated to the topic at hand, but see http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360/photos/ for an example of a "CCROS" card. If you go to the 360/30 Links page, there are some IBM papers on how these things work. Yes, you punch these on a standard punch; this is how microcode updates or patches were done. -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 5 02:02:40 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 00:02:40 -0700 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <1188974393.20635.5.camel@ljw.me.uk> References: <51ea77730709041544x4c1e5364n3bdf843f8ed6a9f2@mail.gmail.com>, <46DDDEE7.25424.17998B13@cclist.sydex.com>, <1188974393.20635.5.camel@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: <46DDF220.17331.17E4A33E@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Sep 2007 at 7:39, Lawrence Wilkinson wrote: > Totally unrelated to the topic at hand, but see > http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360/photos/ for an example of a "CCROS" card. There was a book in the 60's about user microprogramming various S/360 mainframes and their cousins. IIRC, the 360/30 was a great candidate because of the easily-created ROS. The Model 40 wasn't as good a candidate because it used magnetic technology (core of some kind?) ROS. The Spectra 70 was another great candidate for user microprogramming, but I don't recall the technology used for the microprogram memeory. The CDC Star-1B used "paper' ROS for its microcode. IIRC, crashes because of errors were very common. Cheers, Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Sep 5 02:04:38 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 03:04:38 -0400 Subject: 68k Mac development environments References: <46DE1639.6080400@msu.edu> Message-ID: <005a01c7ef8b$0671c380$1300a8c0@game> Think Pascal should work too and generate 68000 code (atleast version 2.0 does). TZ From andy.piercy at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 02:57:21 2007 From: andy.piercy at gmail.com (Andy Piercy) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 08:57:21 +0100 Subject: British Computers In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA6F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA6F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: Also.... Masscomp, when they were absorbed into Concurrent Computer Corperation, temporally manufactured Masscomp Multibus systems at CCUR's re-manufacturing (repair) facility in Cork but only during the inital takeover period. This was because most of the assembly staff in the Masscomp USA (Westford) plant resigned, suprisingly when they refused to relocate to Detroit which was the location of the manufacturing plant for CCUR. Andy. On 03/09/07, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > DEC Did indeed make systems in Ireland. There where two plants one in > Galway and something else at Clonmel > I went to Galway loads of times. It was a big FA&T operation assembling > 11/34's, 11/70's etc. VAX I suppose later. I think Clonmel was a > software duplicating and packing operation for Europe. There was also a > plant at Ayr in Scotland. > The Scottish plant was called Silicon Glen and the Irish one Silicon > Bog. > > Rod > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Roger Holmes > Sent: 02 September 2007 23:35 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: British Computers > > > > >> I was going to ask about Irish machines and see that James got there > >> first; did Ireland ever make any micros? > > > > I thought I read on some faq that DEC had some computers made in > > Ireland. > > I think potatoes not puters when it comes to Ireland > > Many an Apple was made in their factory in Cork. > > > > > > From andy.piercy at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 02:57:21 2007 From: andy.piercy at gmail.com (Andy Piercy) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 08:57:21 +0100 Subject: British Computers In-Reply-To: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA6F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA6F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Message-ID: Also.... Masscomp, when they were absorbed into Concurrent Computer Corperation, temporally manufactured Masscomp Multibus systems at CCUR's re-manufacturing (repair) facility in Cork but only during the inital takeover period. This was because most of the assembly staff in the Masscomp USA (Westford) plant resigned, suprisingly when they refused to relocate to Detroit which was the location of the manufacturing plant for CCUR. Andy. On 03/09/07, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > DEC Did indeed make systems in Ireland. There where two plants one in > Galway and something else at Clonmel > I went to Galway loads of times. It was a big FA&T operation assembling > 11/34's, 11/70's etc. VAX I suppose later. I think Clonmel was a > software duplicating and packing operation for Europe. There was also a > plant at Ayr in Scotland. > The Scottish plant was called Silicon Glen and the Irish one Silicon > Bog. > > Rod > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Roger Holmes > Sent: 02 September 2007 23:35 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: British Computers > > > > >> I was going to ask about Irish machines and see that James got there > >> first; did Ireland ever make any micros? > > > > I thought I read on some faq that DEC had some computers made in > > Ireland. > > I think potatoes not puters when it comes to Ireland > > Many an Apple was made in their factory in Cork. > > > > > > From brad at heeltoe.com Wed Sep 5 05:58:24 2007 From: brad at heeltoe.com (Brad Parker) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 06:58:24 -0400 Subject: 68k Mac development environments In-Reply-To: Your message of "Wed, 05 Sep 2007 03:04:38 EDT." <005a01c7ef8b$0671c380$1300a8c0@game> Message-ID: <200709051058.l85AwONv021392@mwave.heeltoe.com> "Teo Zenios" wrote: >Think Pascal should work too and generate 68000 code (atleast version 2.0 >does). Back in the day, "Think C" was the hot setup. -brad From david at cantrell.org.uk Wed Sep 5 06:01:37 2007 From: david at cantrell.org.uk (David Cantrell) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 12:01:37 +0100 Subject: British Computers In-Reply-To: <01MKX5E7KYWWJTE2DK@vms.eurokom.ie> References: <01MKX5E7KYWWJTE2DK@vms.eurokom.ie> Message-ID: <20070905110136.GA28475@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> On Mon, Sep 03, 2007 at 01:57:12PM +0100, Peter Coghlan wrote: > Several multinationals had or have a presence in Ireland ... > > Many of these built computers or peripherals here for the European market. > However, it is pretty much the same as equipment thats found everywhere else > in the world. I am not aware of anything that could be regarded as being > uniquely Irish in the same way that for example Acorn kit could be regarded > as being British. I'd be inclined to count the Mentec PDP-11s, even though they didn't create them to start with. -- David Cantrell | Godless Liberal Elitist When a man is tired of London, he is tired of life -- Samuel Johnson From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Sep 5 06:55:12 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 07:55:12 -0400 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: <200709050056.28319.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <20070904095010.f73591f2.hugh@blemings.org> <200709042225.47351.rtellason@verizon.net> <200709050056.28319.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <61A9E3F8-9993-44B0-AF78-1C0E11D25230@neurotica.com> On Sep 5, 2007, at 12:56 AM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Sure. I have a bunch of PALs around, mostly pulls from a bunch of > XT-class > machines that Zenith made, and it's debatable whether there will > ever be a > use for them. GALs, on the other hand, sound like they'be be > useful for > all sorts of things. I should probably seek out some data on these > parts, > or even a databook, somewhere. Got any pointers to specific numbers? Datasheets for these parts aren't difficult to come by. Despite all the hype about them having been replaced by FPGAs and CPLDs, they are still a current product line from a few different manufacturers (Cypress and Atmel come to mind) and are available from most of the major distributors. The most popular ones seem to be the 16V8 and 22V10 (GAL16V8 and GAL22V10). It's worth noting that some CPLD families are more-or-less direct implementations of common PAL architectures. A Xilinx XC9536 CPLD, for example, is very similar to two of what might have been called PAL36V18. This comes in very handy if you're experienced with PAL design and want to move into higher-density devices. The PALs that you have a pulls are likely useless because they're one-time programmable. GALs and PALCE devices are electrically- eraseable, and possibly some others, but not straight PALs. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From legalize at xmission.com Wed Sep 5 07:03:12 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 06:03:12 -0600 Subject: 68k Mac development environments In-Reply-To: Your message of Tue, 04 Sep 2007 19:36:41 -0700. <46DE1639.6080400@msu.edu> Message-ID: In article <46DE1639.6080400 at msu.edu>, Josh Dersch writes: > I'm looking to do a bit of (simple) development targeting a 68k Mac (or > two, or three, or six...) [...] In 1988 I was a teaching assistant for the Pascal course at the University of Utah. We used Mac classics and "Lightspeed Pascal"; I found it to be a fairly decent programming environment for the Mac. It compiled everything in memory IIRC. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From andy at smokebelch.org Wed Sep 5 07:07:50 2007 From: andy at smokebelch.org (Andrew Back) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 13:07:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: British Computers In-Reply-To: <20070905110136.GA28475@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> References: <01MKX5E7KYWWJTE2DK@vms.eurokom.ie> <20070905110136.GA28475@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> Message-ID: <20070905124610.S38778@plum.flirble.org> On Wed, 5 Sep 2007, David Cantrell wrote: > On Mon, Sep 03, 2007 at 01:57:12PM +0100, Peter Coghlan wrote: > >> Several multinationals had or have a presence in Ireland ... >> >> Many of these built computers or peripherals here for the European market. >> However, it is pretty much the same as equipment thats found everywhere else >> in the world. I am not aware of anything that could be regarded as being >> uniquely Irish in the same way that for example Acorn kit could be regarded >> as being British. > > I'd be inclined to count the Mentec PDP-11s, even though they didn't > create them to start with. In terms of British minis there were at British Gas in Leeds (England) in the 80s a system made by Cossor Electronics (also made scopes and valve radios etc) that was based around a TMS9900, finished in a very fetching orange with flicky-switches operator panel. It had Pertec disk drives each with a separate 19" 2U 'formatter' unit (controller?), remote graphics heads that had some kind of controller (kb in, and RGB out to big 20 inch or so CCTV-style monitors) hooked-up to the CPU by extended serial links. It also had banks and banks of modems, and operated in some sort of dual config with hardware watchdogs. It performed 'grid control' for the distribution of gas in the North East of England, via UHF radio links to inhouse designed (hw+sw) telemetry 'outstations' that could open and close valves, control compressors etc, and report back temp, pressure and so on. When I arrived at British Gas as a trainee it was sat uncoupled in the corner of the workshop, and had been replaced by a VAXserver cluster with satellite VS2000 nodes as workstations. I used to get in early to hook-up the Cossor and play around with it. It made a real racket as the bearings were gone in a Pertec drive, and so my elders and betters would throw tools at me on arrival until I powered it all down! Never seen or heard of a Cossor computer since, but I did hear at the time (early 90s) that Heathrow airport had the same systems still in use. This has also just reminded me of another very cool device we had at BG. A thing called a 'Radac' that was essentially a metal drum a bit smaller than a can of coke. With tracks of mag tape inside, a motor attached to the outside, and a mechanical selector to move the heads. These were part of alarm systems that had a mechanical dialler, and would dial you up if at a remote radio site a burglar was detected, fire alarm went off, or backup genny kicked in etc. You'd get a call with "ALARM! GARROWBY HILL! FIRE!" or something... I wish I'd hung on to some Radacs when the system was replaced! Andrew From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Sep 5 07:32:29 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 05:32:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 68k Mac development environments In-Reply-To: from Richard at "Sep 5, 7 06:03:12 am" Message-ID: <200709051232.l85CWT1P012436@floodgap.com> > > I'm looking to do a bit of (simple) development targeting a 68k Mac (or > > two, or three, or six...) [...] > > In 1988 I was a teaching assistant for the Pascal course at the > University of Utah. We used Mac classics and "Lightspeed Pascal"; I > found it to be a fairly decent programming environment for the Mac. > It compiled everything in memory IIRC. I myself (if you feel like being a little perverse) like MacMETH: http://www.sysecol.ethz.ch/RAMSES/MacMETH.html This is a free, small, very fast Modula-2 development environment which I've used for quick one-offs. The apps will even run under Classic (although not on an Intel Mac), but have extremely small system requirements; with the right coding, you can squeeze them into 128K Macs running System 1.1! -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- There are few problems that the liberal usage of high explosives can't cure. From tshoppa at wmata.com Wed Sep 5 07:45:52 2007 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 08:45:52 -0400 Subject: train to Boston (MIT) Message-ID: <46DE6CC002000037000108B9@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Chris M asks: > if it's practical to get to Boston from NYC by train? The northeast corridor is the best train service in the US between Boston/NYC/ Washington downtowns and a number of the suburbs. > Amtrak is just to expensive (~120$ round trip). Having to go up and down between downtown Washington and NYC for work, Amtrak is way too convenient compared to airline travel. There's no friggin way I'm ever gonna sit on a runway at LaGuardia for hours again. For getting between NYC/Boston/Washington very very cheaply, google up "chinatown bus". Most make some stops in the Bronx, the burbs, etc. The bus stops are frequently just people sitting on their luggage in the streets, and the operations may seem a little shady, but a lot of people on a budget go this way. Tim. From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Wed Sep 5 03:51:26 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 09:51:26 +0100 Subject: British Computers. Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA8E@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Now for something a bit more serious. I have been building up my collection of DEC equipment. The vast majority of it works at least to a level where it passes the diagnostics. DEC equipment was always well built. The OEM market installed DEC equipment in all kinds of bad environments. As the equipment is robust you can be fairly heavy on the cleaning side. The yellowing on VT series cases responds to a Brillo Pad No, it does not scratch it for the same reason they use wire wool and turpentine on antique furniture On LK series keyboards you can remove the key caps put then in a bucket and zap with a power washer. No, the letters will not come off they are two part moulded. The letter is part of the plastic. Whilst I don't travel much these days. (Broadband means I can get to a customers system in seconds) I must make an effort to come up to BP. Rod Smallwood -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules Richardson Sent: 05 September 2007 01:24 To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: British Computers. Rod Smallwood wrote: > So I can come along sit down and start knocking out some code then? > That might cause a crowd to collect. Then something dynamic. > Line printers thumping away, Paper tape reader on a long loop. > Tape punch doing a Woody Woodpecker. IBM 029 doing verify. > Two security guys dragging me out of the building. > The visitors would love that!! Heh :-) Being as hands-on as possible is still one of our primary goals - although there's always going to be caveats on what's left running, or what level of supervision any given system has of course, but for the majority of machines we actively encourage people to sit down and have a play. The best will in the world probably isn't going to keep this stuff operational much beyond a few decades, and I'm not sure if anyone really knows what's going to happen to the plastics a few more decades beyond that; whilst we have a duty to store inactive systems for future generations, it also seems wise to let people extract maximum enjoyment out of these systems now whilst they still can... cheers Jules From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 08:36:12 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 09:36:12 -0400 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <20070904094815.0c63b513@SirToby.dinner41.local> References: <575131af0709031313n4e253299rf657ba86981f044f@mail.gmail.com> <714027.54992.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> <20070904094815.0c63b513@SirToby.dinner41.local> Message-ID: <46DEB0CC.10008@gmail.com> Jochen Kunz wrote: > On Mon, 3 Sep 2007 13:49:14 -0700 (PDT) > Chris M wrote: > >> Correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't the first machine to >> run AIX the IBM/RT's? Googling... > It was called AIX, but it doesn't have much in common with the later > AIX. The RT-AIX was a more or less straight port of some 4BSD to the RT. > The later AIX is an IBM reimplementation of UNIX. (AFAIK) Nope. The RT AIX is the predecessor of the current AIX. You're thinking of AOS, which was a port of 4.3BSD (or was it 4.2BSD?). Peace... Sridhar From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Sep 5 08:42:26 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 08:42:26 -0500 Subject: train to Boston (MIT) References: <884208.81482.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <09b301c7efc2$9b6c04f0$6400a8c0@BILLING> Evan wrote... >> Being pricey doesn't make it impractical. Just >> makes you cheap. Careful... > Right. Coming from the person who wants to be driven > across the fruited plain to VCF whatever, but for some > strange reason using his vehicle in never an option. Offbase. Can it Chris. This should have been sent offlist. Also, perhaps I'm missing something, but just how is a train to boston considered on-topic? Jay From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 08:46:51 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 09:46:51 -0400 Subject: train to Boston (MIT) In-Reply-To: <43827.65.126.154.6.1188929145.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> References: <634715.70607.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> <43827.65.126.154.6.1188929145.squirrel@vandal.degnanco.net> Message-ID: <46DEB34B.9080409@gmail.com> Evan Koblentz wrote: > Nor is the drive so bad. Don't take 95 (the Bronx is a terrible ride); > instead take Tappan Zee, to the Westchester parkways, to 91, to 84, to 90 > (Mass Pike) which takes you right to Cambridge. Four hours. You don't need to take 91. Just take the Taconic to 84 East to 90 East. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 08:51:39 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 09:51:39 -0400 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <200709032153.45687.pat@computer-refuge.org> <575131af0709040343y6cb9cb3cs2cf7820740e4da8@mail.gmail.com> <200709041033.53451.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <46DEB46B.7090705@gmail.com> William Donzelli wrote: >> POWER5 and POWER6 have evolved quite a bit from where POWER4 was. IBM >> made a lot more money selling POWER processors, systems, and consulting >> to go with it, than they ever did with selling PPC chips to apple. IBM >> was dragging their feet with PPC features on the G5 (and whatever would >> have been G6), which is why Apple abandoned them; if IBM was making >> enough money from Apple on their G5s, I'm sure that they would have >> payed more attention to what Apple wanted (like low-power noteboot >> CPUs). > > Looking back, the POWER lines for Apple were starting to be more of a > nuisance for IBM. I do not think anyone was crying in Fishkill when > the news came down about the Mac architecture change. I can verify that no-one in Fishkill gave a damn. I was onsite when the announcement came. Peace... Sridhar From trag at io.com Wed Sep 5 08:56:09 2007 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 08:56:09 -0500 (CDT) Subject: 8k Mac development environments In-Reply-To: <200709051324.l85DO6hg008801@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200709051324.l85DO6hg008801@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <40181.207.71.28.21.1189000569.squirrel@webmail.io.com> > Message: 16 > Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 19:36:41 -0700 > From: Josh Dersch > Subject: 68k Mac development environments > I'm looking to do a bit of (simple) development targeting a 68k Mac (or > two, or three, or six...) and since I've never done any programming on a > Mac before I'm curious if anyone out there has any recommendations for a > development environment to use or to avoid. I'd prefer C/C++, but I'm > flexible :). I'd like to be able to run my code on a Mac Classic/SE (so > I need to be able to compile to 68000 code) but I'll be doing the > development itself on a IIfx. > You might look around for a copy of Think C 5.x by Symantec (It's on 4 floppies). It had a great reputation in its day and some of the learning books used examples which were based on Think C's IDE. Later, they based their examples on Codewarrior, but Codewarrior arose around the time of the PPC era, so Think C is probably the better choice. I'm pretty sure that early Codewarrior included the ability to compile for 68000, but I'm not certain and if you're developing on the IIfx, Codewarrior might be a bit cycle hungry. Jeff Walther From bdwheele at indiana.edu Wed Sep 5 09:15:16 2007 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 10:15:16 -0400 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? Message-ID: <1189001716.24579.8.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> I don't suppose anybody knows where one would dig up old unixes for 8086 or 80286 based PCs? Source would be a big bonus. I've been playing with the bcc compiler and the V7 source and just curious what "real" ports looked like. Thanks! Brian From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 09:21:35 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 10:21:35 -0400 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <1189001716.24579.8.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> References: <1189001716.24579.8.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> Message-ID: <46DEBB6F.8060504@gmail.com> Brian Wheeler wrote: > I don't suppose anybody knows where one would dig up old unixes for 8086 > or 80286 based PCs? Source would be a big bonus. I've been playing > with the bcc compiler and the V7 source and just curious what "real" > ports looked like. Try Minix or ELKS. I don't know if either of them could be considered "UNIX Ports" specifically, but I've used both and they work well enough. Peace... Sridhar From paco.linux at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 09:47:03 2007 From: paco.linux at gmail.com (Paco Linux) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 16:47:03 +0200 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <1189001716.24579.8.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> References: <1189001716.24579.8.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> Message-ID: Have you seen Coherent ? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coherent_%28operating_system%29 Paco On 9/5/07, Brian Wheeler wrote: > > I don't suppose anybody knows where one would dig up old unixes for 8086 > or 80286 based PCs? Source would be a big bonus. I've been playing > with the bcc compiler and the V7 source and just curious what "real" > ports looked like. > > Thanks! > Brian > > > From bdwheele at indiana.edu Wed Sep 5 09:49:45 2007 From: bdwheele at indiana.edu (Brian Wheeler) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 10:49:45 -0400 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: References: <1189001716.24579.8.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> Message-ID: <1189003785.24579.13.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> On Wed, 2007-09-05 at 16:47 +0200, Paco Linux wrote: > Have you seen Coherent ? > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coherent_%28operating_system%29 > I completely forgot about them... thanks! Brian > Paco > > On 9/5/07, Brian Wheeler wrote: > > > > I don't suppose anybody knows where one would dig up old unixes for 8086 > > or 80286 based PCs? Source would be a big bonus. I've been playing > > with the bcc compiler and the V7 source and just curious what "real" > > ports looked like. > > > > Thanks! > > Brian > > > > > > From paco.linux at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 09:49:54 2007 From: paco.linux at gmail.com (Paco Linux) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 16:49:54 +0200 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <1189001716.24579.8.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> References: <1189001716.24579.8.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> Message-ID: Also, you can look the source of ultrix ftp://ifctfvax.harhan.org/pub/UNIX/thirdparty/Ultrix-32/sources/ (not x86 code, vax and mips code) Paco On 9/5/07, Brian Wheeler wrote: > > I don't suppose anybody knows where one would dig up old unixes for 8086 > or 80286 based PCs? Source would be a big bonus. I've been playing > with the bcc compiler and the V7 source and just curious what "real" > ports looked like. > > Thanks! > Brian > > > From mtapley at swri.edu Wed Sep 5 10:11:02 2007 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 10:11:02 -0500 Subject: 8k Mac development environments In-Reply-To: <200709051448.l85EmIHF010759@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200709051448.l85EmIHF010759@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 9:48 -0500 9/5/07, Trag wrote: > Later, they based >their examples on Codewarrior, but Codewarrior arose around the time of >the PPC era, so Think C is probably the better choice. I'm pretty sure >that early Codewarrior included the ability to compile for 68000, but I'm >not certain and if you're developing on the IIfx, Codewarrior might be a >bit cycle hungry. I can pretty much confirm this. CodeWarrior is a thing of beauty, but it's a thing of beauty with a substantial disk footprint. 411 MB for a full install, literally thousands of files. It seems fast on my PB3400, but I don't think that much speaks to its usability on a IIfx. Turbo Pascal rocks on the Mac Plus, FWIW; I'd expect Turbo C to be roughly as good but don't know from experience. MPW (Macintosh Programmer's Workshop?) hasn't been mentioned yet; that was the Apple-supported environment, but rarely held up as a standard of usability. http://developer.apple.com/tools/mpw-tools/ Also in the "you should know about" category is "Inside Macintosh", the Apple manual set for how to write Mac Applications, of which the oft-quoted description is "(n > 10) volumes, to understand the content of any one of which you have to have already read the other (n-1)". I think at least some of the content is available at http://developer.apple.com/documentation/macos8/mac8.html Good luck! -- - Mark, 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From mtapley at swri.edu Wed Sep 5 10:23:05 2007 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 10:23:05 -0500 Subject: Slightly rare Mac 512k with D(?)-25 connector In-Reply-To: <200709050342.l853gaMx098454@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200709050342.l853gaMx098454@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: All, spotted in the San Antonio Goodwill Computerworks: A Mac 512k, but with a minor difference. On the back side, above where the power switch normally is and far away from the rest of the connectors, is a 25-pin D connector reminscent of the Mac "SCSI" connectors on Mac Plus and other machines. I did not disassemble or power up the machine (no KB or Mouse in evidence), so I don't know what it is. Don't know whether they'll pak/n/ship. They were asking $5 for the machine. No connection. Let me know (off list for quicker response) if you want me to go back for it and work on boxes and postage for you. Forgotten what the correct designation for those D-connectors is, and wanted to get this out fast in case anyone wants it. -- - Mark, 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Sep 5 10:32:21 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 08:32:21 -0700 Subject: Slightly rare Mac 512k with D(?)-25 connector In-Reply-To: References: <200709050342.l853gaMx098454@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 10:23 AM -0500 9/5/07, Mark Tapley wrote: >All, > spotted in the San Antonio Goodwill Computerworks: > > A Mac 512k, but with a minor difference. On the back side, >above where the power switch normally is and far away from the rest >of the connectors, is a 25-pin D connector reminscent of the Mac >"SCSI" connectors on Mac Plus and other machines. I did not >disassemble or power up the machine (no KB or Mouse in evidence), so >I don't know what it is. Might very well be a SCSI connector. My Mac 512k has SCSI added. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From uban at ubanproductions.com Wed Sep 5 10:33:54 2007 From: uban at ubanproductions.com (Tom Uban) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 10:33:54 -0500 Subject: MAC emulation? Message-ID: <46DECC62.70004@ubanproductions.com> I have a Powerbook 150 running System 7.? and only really use it for one purpose, which is to run the old MOTU FreeStyle and FreeMIDI tools. My question is if there is an emulation environment available for a PC which provides enough facility to run System 7 (or possibly 8) and these applications which need to talk MIDI via one of the serial ports and a MIDI interface? --tom From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 10:48:33 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 11:48:33 -0400 Subject: train to Boston (MIT) In-Reply-To: <09b301c7efc2$9b6c04f0$6400a8c0@BILLING> References: <884208.81482.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> <09b301c7efc2$9b6c04f0$6400a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: > Also, perhaps I'm missing something, but just how is a train to boston > considered on-topic? To get the the MIT flea, held every month during the warm parts of the year. You can still find some good junk there. Lots of just-on-topic networking and workstation stuff shows up there. Occasionally a gem show up, like last month's DEC logic trainer, on a Lisa earlier in the year. Also lots of interesting people. The man who was the last head of the whole VAX thing at DEC is a regular. And if you are REALLY good at taking the train, it will get you RIGHT to the show! -- Will From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 10:49:50 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 10:49:50 -0500 Subject: Slightly rare Mac 512k with D(?)-25 connector In-Reply-To: References: <200709050342.l853gaMx098454@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On 9/5/07, Mark Tapley wrote: > All, > spotted in the San Antonio Goodwill Computerworks: > > A Mac 512k, but with a minor difference. On the back side, > above where the power switch normally is and far away from the rest > of the connectors, is a 25-pin D connector reminscent of the Mac > "SCSI" connectors on Mac Plus and other machines. I did not > disassemble or power up the machine (no KB or Mouse in evidence), so > I don't know what it is. Could be SCSI. I have one myself - it was one of the 512K Macs my mother used in the mid 1980s for her typing and typesetting shop. I upgraded that one to a 512Ke (double-sided floppies and replacement ROMs), then installed a "Dove Snap" 512K and SCSI expansion. You removed the 512K mobo, then positioned the Dove Snap over the right part of the mobo, then pressed down with a *large* amount of force to "snap" the expansion board connectors right over the legs of chips on the mobo. Think of a bunch of 5mm-tall Gompers Clips and you aren't too far off. I don't recall what pins were tapped, but it was certainly all the necessary signals from the memory field to refresh another 512K. There must have been some unused memory select on a 74LS138 or something to enable the new memory, and probably the 5380 SCSI chip. The connector for this one was on the back of the battery door - you removed the factory battery door, threaded a 24-pin cable through the back of the battery compartment, then plugged it into the Dove Snap before reassembling the case. In effect, the Dove Snap turned her 512Ke into a Mac Plus, with DE9 serial/printer connectors. She was using Farallon PhoneNet, with a networked Apple LaserWriter, so the lack of DIN serial/network didn't matter. This was all in the 1985-1989 timeframe - I was happy to be her in-house Mac hardware dude, especially since it meant that I had a key and could work on papers after hours with, in effect, a personal laser printer. If you think back to those days, that was a nice perk. (We also used to go over and play NetTrek on her collection of 512Kes and Pluses and SEs, but the laser printer was what really did it for me). > Don't know whether they'll pak/n/ship. They were asking $5 > for the machine. If you don't already have a 512K machine, that certainly sounds cheap. Keyboards and mice shouldn't be hard to find. > Forgotten what the correct designation for those D-connectors > is, and wanted to get this out fast in case anyone wants it. Mac SCSI is a DB25F - it's one of those times when it _really_ is a DB connector. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 10:52:34 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 10:52:34 -0500 Subject: 8k Mac development environments In-Reply-To: References: <200709051448.l85EmIHF010759@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On 9/5/07, Mark Tapley wrote: > Also in the "you should know about" category is "Inside Macintosh", > the Apple manual set for how to write Mac Applications, of which the > oft-quoted description is "(n > 10) volumes, to understand the > content of any one of which you have to have already read the other > (n-1)". There's a set of those at a downtown bookstore in Madison, WI, but the individual volumes are priced at more than a few dollars each. I don't know the exact total, but I would suspect that you'd need to show up with between $80-$120 to walk away with the 8-10 volumes. They are moving soon, so perhaps they'd bargain... -ethan From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Sep 5 10:47:30 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 11:47:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: D-shell sizes [was Re: Slightly rare Mac 512k with D(?)-25 connector] In-Reply-To: References: <200709050342.l853gaMx098454@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200709051604.MAA10529@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > [...] a 25-pin D connector reminscent of the Mac "SCSI" connectors on > Mac Plus and other machines. [...] > Forgotten what the correct designation for those D-connectors is, and > wanted to get this out fast in case anyone wants it. The 25-pin size - the one used for the MAC SCSI you refer to, the one called for by the mechanical portion of the RS-232 spec, the one used for peecee parallel ports - is DB. Using pin count for that same pin spacing, the table is DA=15, DB=25, DC=39 (I think), DD=50 (three rows), DE=9. The DE shell is also used in a 15-pin variant ("VGA"), but the pins are spaced substantially closer than in the DE-9. DA is probably best known for peecee joystick connectors, but it also got used for AUI Ethernet back in the 10base5 days, before even 10base2, much less 10baseT. DC doesn't get used much in my experience; I think I have a few SBus cards that use it for the fat end of their octopus cables. DD was used by Sun for SCSI back in the Sun-2 and Sun-3 era, and also got used for IPI disks. DE is probably best known for peecee serial ports and "VGA" video (a lot of people don't realize the shell size is the same for those two), but I've seen it used for other things, such as Sun-3 monochrome video. I'm sure each size has plenty of other uses I know nothing about, too. I don't know why they are out of order. I speculate that someone designed DA through DD, never expecting D-shell to get used for anything under 15 pins, then had to tack on the 9-pin size later. (Arguably they should have called it D@, but that would probably have been too geeky. :) There exist D-shell connectors of other sizes, like the NeXT "black" hardware video connector (which held something like 19 pins). I don't know whether they have names in the DA..DE series; I suspect they have no standard names because they're not standard sizes. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 5 11:11:59 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 09:11:59 -0700 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <1189001716.24579.8.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> References: <1189001716.24579.8.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> Message-ID: <46DE72DF.32420.19DB8DA8@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Sep 2007 at 10:15, Brian Wheeler wrote: > I don't suppose anybody knows where one would dig up old unixes for 8086 > or 80286 based PCs? Source would be a big bonus. I've been playing > with the bcc compiler and the V7 source and just curious what "real" > ports looked like. If my memory serves, the first ports of Unix for the 80286 weren't for the PC/AT (i.e. earlier) and were for Xenix, not Unix (yes, I know, a minor quibble). It was an odd arrangement--Microsoft was working on the utilities, etc. and Intel was working on the kernel code. The whole affair seemed to take forever. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 5 11:40:07 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 09:40:07 -0700 Subject: D-shell sizes [was Re: Slightly rare Mac 512k with D(?)-25 connector] In-Reply-To: <200709051604.MAA10529@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200709050342.l853gaMx098454@dewey.classiccmp.org>, , <200709051604.MAA10529@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <46DE7977.16908.19F54DC1@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Sep 2007 at 11:47, der Mouse wrote: > DC doesn't get used much in my experience; I think I have a few SBus > cards that use it for the fat end of their octopus cables. 37-pin External floppy drive connectors on PC and PS/2. Some SCSI cards (e.g. the Iomega Bernoulli PC version) also used them. There's also a 68-pin 3-row "high-density" version used on Overland and Chi Pertec 9-track adapters. There's also a "thicker" 50-pin 3-row (not HD) connector used for the external connector for some PC-based QIC- 02 and QIC-36 controllers (Wangtek, I think). There were also non-standard sizes, such as the 19-pin D connector used for Atari ST ACSI connections. Cheers, Chuck From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 11:53:15 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 11:53:15 -0500 Subject: D-shell sizes [was Re: Slightly rare Mac 512k with D(?)-25 connector] In-Reply-To: <200709051604.MAA10529@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200709050342.l853gaMx098454@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200709051604.MAA10529@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <51ea77730709050953l196d9b78g623491604dd7e910@mail.gmail.com> On 9/5/07, der Mouse wrote: > the Sun-2 and Sun-3 era, and also got used for IPI disks. DE is > probably best known for peecee serial ports and "VGA" video (a lot of How about CGA/EGA video on the PC, or Atari/CBM game controller ports? Or is that a different shell size? And there's this non-standard serial connector on the Grid Compass: http://flickr.com/photos/chiclassiccomp/522484668/in/set-72157600033400926/ From jbmcb1 at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 11:55:07 2007 From: jbmcb1 at gmail.com (Jason McBrien) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 12:55:07 -0400 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <46DE72DF.32420.19DB8DA8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1189001716.24579.8.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> <46DE72DF.32420.19DB8DA8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <5f7d1b0e0709050955g620d004bmf8989b5a15f20712@mail.gmail.com> Lesee, there's also VENIX/86 and VENIX/286. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 11:59:14 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 11:59:14 -0500 Subject: GALs and PALs (was Re: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia)) Message-ID: On 9/4/07, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Tuesday 04 September 2007 23:41, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Hope that illuminates more than obscures, > > Sure. I have a bunch of PALs around, mostly pulls from a bunch of XT-class > machines that Zenith made, and it's debatable whether there will ever be a > use for them. Indeed. You might check for "PALCE" - those are CMOS PALs that _can_ be reprogrammed. Bipolar PALs by MMI and other vendors are strictly OTP. You _could_ poke around the PAL with a signal generator and a logic analyzer/logic probe/VOM/O-scope and divine the internal programming, but, honestly, blown PALs are rarely useful out of their original context. The only use _I_ have ever had for them is a pattern to be able to make modifications to an existing device - I've started with PALs for, say, an Amiga 3000, then burned a faster GAL to get rid of video jitter - I was partially successful. I've never tried to take a PAL out of a circuit and re-use it in a new circuit. > GALs, on the other hand, sound like they'be be useful for > all sorts of things. Indeed they are. Bob Armstrong is a heavy user of GALs for the Spare Time Gizmos line of hobby products. In the case of the Elf 2000, for example, you can change the logic equations yourself (he provides the source) and change the memory and/or I/O map - all of the select logic goes through a GAL, so the memory map is mutable. If you are designing your own circuits, a 18 or 24-pin GAL can replace several square inches of TTL, with the benefit of being able to make changes later that don't involve cutting traces and adding blue wires. You lose the ability to poke around in the middle of select circuits, and to make substantial changes, but it all depends on what your goals for the project are if that's a worthwhile tradeoff or not. You do have to start with a GAL programmer, though. Not all hobbyists have them, so if you make a product to sell, as Bob does, you should consider selling programmed parts for those that can't burn their own. > I should probably seek out some data on these parts, > or even a databook, somewhere. Got any pointers to specific numbers? The two most common parts I've worked with are the 18-pin Lattice GAL 16V8 and the 24-pin Lattice GAL 22V10. There's also a 22-pin GAL 20V8, and I do have a few pull, but I've never run into a hobby project that uses them. I would expect to pay $1.25 for small quantities of 16V8s and up to $3.50 for small quantities of 22V10s. Bargains can be had, but to be honest, when I see 22V10s for under $2.00 each, I tend to buy a few. They aren't as easy to find cheaply as 16V8s. One type of occasional bargain are surplussed already-programmed parts. Just throw them in your programmer, erase them, then you are ready to go with only a couple of burn cycles ticked off their lifetime. AMD also makes (made?) the PALCE line of PLDs. They are pin compatible with GALs, and should program in the same programmer as a GAL. I do not know if there are any substantial technical advantages of PALCEs over GALs or not. In general, for non-modern circuits, a GAL is going to be fast compared to layer after layer of TTL. For example, 15ns GALs are not particularly fast or expensive. 15ns would be a problem for a multi-gate address select circuit for, say, a 6502. Fortunately, with 1MHz and 8Mhz designs and such, speed really isn't a factor, but it's nice to know how much slack you have in your design. You can start here for technical details... http://www.latticesemi.com/products/cpldspld/gal.cfm -ethan From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Sep 5 12:14:54 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 11:14:54 -0600 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <46DE72DF.32420.19DB8DA8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1189001716.24579.8.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> <46DE72DF.32420.19DB8DA8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46DEE40E.2070704@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > If my memory serves, the first ports of Unix for the 80286 weren't > for the PC/AT (i.e. earlier) and were for Xenix, not Unix (yes, I > know, a minor quibble). It was an odd arrangement--Microsoft was > working on the utilities, etc. and Intel was working on the kernel > code. The whole affair seemed to take forever Well once Intel gets the bugs out of the 80286 I am sure M$ will get the real programs like BASIC for Xenix. :) Did not Xenix follow the Small 8086 model - 64K data & 64K code? > Cheers, > Chuck Ben alias woodelf. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Sep 5 12:11:04 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 18:11:04 +0100 Subject: D-shell sizes [was Re: Slightly rare Mac 512k with D(?)-25 connector] In-Reply-To: <200709051604.MAA10529@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200709050342.l853gaMx098454@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200709051604.MAA10529@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <46DEE328.6080804@yahoo.co.uk> der Mouse wrote: > Using pin count for that same pin spacing, the table is DA=15, DB=25, > DC=39 (I think), DD=50 (three rows), DE=9. The DE shell is also used > in a 15-pin variant ("VGA"), but the pins are spaced substantially > closer than in the DE-9. DA is probably best known for peecee joystick > connectors, but it also got used for AUI Ethernet back in the 10base5 > days, before even 10base2, much less 10baseT. I tend to think of the shell sizes in terms of approximate finger widths as it's easier to relate to people compared to the semi-random Dx ordering :-) Some NCD X Terminals had a DA26 connector - 3 rows of pins in a 'A'-sized (two-finger ;-) shell. I think some Cisco gear used to use the same connector. Plus of course there are some weird designs out there in D-shells with a variety of pin sizes - e.g. 13W3 connectors for Sun/SGI video, and ISTR HP using something similar but with a smaller (DA?) shell size. (Also, weren't some Apollo token ring connectors something like a 5W2 on an DE-sized shell?) There's some other weird stuff about too which uses D-type shells with round pins, but a much smaller form-factor (shell and pin diameters). I was going to give an e.g. but although I can picture such a line of machines in my head, my brain's refusing to put a name to them right now! I'm not sure if they ever got a D-type designation... cheers Jules From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Sep 5 12:28:02 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 11:28:02 -0600 Subject: GALs and PALs (was Re: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia)) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46DEE722.4010809@jetnet.ab.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > Indeed they are. Bob Armstrong is a heavy user of GALs for the Spare > Time Gizmos line of hobby products. In the case of the Elf 2000, for > example, you can change the logic equations yourself (he provides the > source) and change the memory and/or I/O map - all of the select logic > goes through a GAL, so the memory map is mutable. Good digital products for sale. I just question his audio amp just because the better quality parts are more $$$. > If you are designing your own circuits, a 18 or 24-pin GAL can replace > several square inches of TTL, with the benefit of being able to make > changes later that don't involve cutting traces and adding blue wires. > You lose the ability to poke around in the middle of select circuits, > and to make substantial changes, but it all depends on what your goals > for the project are if that's a worthwhile tradeoff or not. You do > have to start with a GAL programmer, though. Not all hobbyists have > them, so if you make a product to sell, as Bob does, you should > consider selling programmed parts for those that can't burn their own. That is the downside , the programmer for them. I suspect 18 pin GAL is a typo. They come in 20 and 24(thin) pin packages. > -ethan From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 5 12:27:48 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 10:27:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AT&T PC6300 available, in Fort Worth, TX, USA In-Reply-To: <46DE1590.3070707@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <820084.84058.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jim Battle wrote: > Today I received an email from a gentleman in > possession of an AT&T > PC6300, wanting to know if I wanted it for the cost > of shipping. I'm > not interested in collecting PCs, so I said I'd pass > it on to the list. > > Here is his description of the machine: > > (start of quote) > > As the original purchaser, I am seeking a new home > for a pristine 1985 > Personal Computer with peripherals, software, and > original > documentation. All were functioning perfectly in > February 1998, when > replaced and stored. > > All items are in their original boxes: > AT&T PC6300 with 256KB RAM and two 5-1/4" floppy > drives, Color Monitor, > Keyboard, Mouse, and Citizen MSP-15 dot matrix > printer with 8-1/2x11 and > 11x15 tractor feed paper. Being that *presumably* it has color graphics capability, someone should grab it. They're not that easy to come by. > As you know, this PC was the state of the art > technology in 1985 and the > best and fastest of the pre-"Windows" operating > system platforms. It is > an excellent representation depicting the end of the > Dot Matrix and DOS > eras. I'm not so sure about SOTA, but an interesting machine IMHO. May take a number of peecee style expansion cards (but DON'T quote me on that). Uses an 8086 instead of the typical 8088. Uses a passive-backplane motherboard. A fun machine to tinker around w/if you ask me. Oh, you didn't ask me...well then BUZZ OFF! LOL LOL Keep up the good work Jimbo ;) ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. http://travel.yahoo.com/ From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Sep 5 12:33:34 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 10:33:34 -0700 Subject: 8k Mac development environments Message-ID: <46DEE86E.9080104@bitsavers.org> > There's a set of those at a downtown bookstore The entire set was distributed as PDF's on a CD. I wouldn't bother with the dead tree version. There was also an overview volume added in the later versions. and > MPW (Macintosh Programmer's Workshop?) hasn't been mentioned yet; > that was the Apple-supported environment, but rarely held up as a > standard of usability. We used it for all system development 'til the switch to OSX. Think of what the Mac would have been with a command line interface, and you have MPW. Code management (projector) was OK, but had some nasty constraints when building big projects. The big problem with all the 68K programming environments for the Mac is A5 relative addressing, creating a segmented 64K environment on a machine that originally had a flat address space. That was the big thing we changed on PPC machines. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 5 12:34:54 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 10:34:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: train to Boston (MIT) In-Reply-To: <09b301c7efc2$9b6c04f0$6400a8c0@BILLING> Message-ID: <532336.5351.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> Being that Boston is somewhat of a *hub* as far as vintage shows go, I didn't think it terrible to ask some advice about getting there. I'll suffer a resulting rebuke if I have to, but I really don't think it was all that OT. I could stand to be corrected though. I just wish people who have no business at all answering my posts, and if they choose to, would at least do so w/o the usual odious inhospitable mannerisms. But I guess it's asking too much for some to be polite. --- Jay West wrote: > Evan wrote... > >> Being pricey doesn't make it impractical. Just > >> makes you cheap. > Careful... > > > Right. Coming from the person who wants to be > driven > > across the fruited plain to VCF whatever, but for > some > > strange reason using his vehicle in never an > option. > Offbase. Can it Chris. This should have been sent > offlist. > > Also, perhaps I'm missing something, but just how is > a train to boston > considered on-topic? > > Jay > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 5 12:36:43 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 10:36:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: train to Boston (MIT) In-Reply-To: <46DEB34B.9080409@gmail.com> Message-ID: <37666.58377.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> --- Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Evan Koblentz wrote: > > Nor is the drive so bad. Don't take 95 (the Bronx > is a terrible ride); > > instead take Tappan Zee, to the Westchester > parkways, to 91, to 84, to 90 > > (Mass Pike) which takes you right to Cambridge. > Four hours. > > You don't need to take 91. Just take the Taconic to > 84 East to 90 East. woosis :). I'll take the GW/95 anyday. Not that upstate NY isn't exceedingly beautiful, but that long ride along 84 is just so boring (Connecticut is nice too, but there's just no, uh, distractions along that route). Sorry sorry I'm done now. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when. http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/222 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 5 12:46:35 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 10:46:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <46DEE40E.2070704@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <992479.62593.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> --- woodelf wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > If my memory serves, the first ports of Unix for > the 80286 weren't > > for the PC/AT (i.e. earlier) and were for Xenix, > not Unix (yes, I > > know, a minor quibble). It was an odd > arrangement--Microsoft was > > working on the utilities, etc. and Intel was > working on the kernel > > code. The whole affair seemed to take forever Do you mean like development systems? I'm not aware of any pre-AT '286's - not saying there weren't any. They seem to have less exposure then pre-5150 Intel stuph. > Well once Intel gets the bugs out of the 80286 I am > sure M$ will > get the real programs like BASIC for Xenix. :) > > Did not Xenix follow the Small 8086 model - 64K data > & 64K code? Dunno. Let's not forget - and here's where I get tarred and feathered - early *servers* like the Televideo Personal Mini and Northstar Dimension (both sporting 80186's) for instance. They ran OEM versions of Netware. Like UNIX internally - I can't really say, but a lot of the utilitarian stuff was UNIXY at least. I have a PM/16t, but the disks are bad :(. Need them! I haven't rigged a terminal up to it yet, so can't say if the hd is loopy. I bet it is - ~235$ and all the idiot used for packing was a couple of scraps of newspaper. Got a line on a NS Dimension. Inoperable. Don't know about software. I need these folks *whimpers*. There was a *version* of UNIX specific to the NEC APC III (was anything like it available for the APC *1*???). I have Tanenbaum's first book, but it's in storage in Pennsylhoma. Not quite sure when I'll be up that way, but *possibly* it could be as early as this weekend (no promises though). It's in great shape, but has a razored spine. It's yours for the cost of shipping. Sources included. Yay. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when. http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/222 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 5 12:51:05 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 10:51:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GALs and PALs (was Re: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia)) In-Reply-To: <46DEE722.4010809@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <680365.8423.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> --- woodelf wrote: > > If you are designing your own circuits, a 18 or > 24-pin GAL can replace > > several square inches of TTL, with the benefit of > being able to make > > changes later that don't involve cutting traces > and adding blue wires. > > You lose the ability to poke around in the middle > of select circuits, > > and to make substantial changes, but it all > depends on what your goals > > for the project are if that's a worthwhile > tradeoff or not. So the benefits of pals/gals are not so much integration or a high degree of, but rather modification? You wouldn't want to, for instance, attempt a *reproduction* (of say a unobtainium piece of silicon) by using a bunch of galpals instead of an FPGA? How much does the typical programmer cost? Are they *easy enough* to build? You do > > have to start with a GAL programmer, though. Not > all hobbyists have > > them, so if you make a product to sell, as Bob > does, you should > > consider selling programmed parts for those that > can't burn their own. > > That is the downside , the programmer for them. > I suspect 18 pin GAL is a typo. They come in 20 and > 24(thin) pin packages. > > > -ethan > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. http://mobile.yahoo.com/go?refer=1GNXIC From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Sep 5 13:00:33 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 19:00:33 +0100 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46DEEEC1.5090206@philpem.me.uk> Tony Duell wrote: >> PS. Iv'e got the 7400 pinout downloaded already. :) > > So have I. Into my brain. I think I'll rememebr that one until my dying day. If you can get hold of one, the Texas Instruments Digital Logic Pocket Data Book (doc code SCYD013A) is a great little desktop reference. It's about A5 size and has pinouts and logic diagrams for just about all of TI's 4000- and 74-series logic chips. They used to give them out free-for-the-asking, but I'm not sure if they still do. If I wanted another copy, I'd probably try calling the local TI sales office and asking nicely. Of course, when I got mine, they also sent me a box full of other databooks as well - basically the whole logic databook series and most of the analog product guides and databooks. The box was about 4ft long by 2ft wide and 1.5ft tall... -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 5 13:02:09 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 11:02:09 -0700 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <992479.62593.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> References: <46DEE40E.2070704@jetnet.ab.ca>, <992479.62593.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46DE8CB1.16005.1A406BB6@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Sep 2007 at 10:46, Chris M wrote: > Do you mean like development systems? I'm not aware > of any pre-AT '286's - not saying there weren't any. > They seem to have less exposure then pre-5150 Intel > stuph. Definitely were. I worked on the port for the Durango Poppy, for example, using early steppings of the 80286. Interesting thing is that pre-production silicon was available on the 286 and the 186 at about the same time. I wonder if there were any 80286 coprocessor plug-in boards for the XT before the AT? Did Compupro and/or Altos have a pre-PC-AT 80286 system out? I think so. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 5 13:09:47 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 11:09:47 -0700 Subject: AT&T PC6300 available, in Fort Worth, TX, USA In-Reply-To: <820084.84058.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> References: <46DE1590.3070707@pacbell.net>, <820084.84058.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46DE8E7B.27008.1A476964@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Sep 2007 at 10:27, Chris M wrote: > I'm not so sure about SOTA, but an interesting > machine IMHO. May take a number of peecee style > expansion cards (but DON'T quote me on that). Uses an > 8086 instead of the typical 8088. When Sears had a chain of computer stores, they really flogged the 6300s. I don't know if I'd call the 6300 "state of the art" though. Wasn't it an Olivetti machine under the skin? There were other 8086-based PeeCee-type machines. The Stearns is one that comes to mind. Made somewhere in the Twin Cities (Minneapolis- St. Paul) area, IIRC. Cheers, Chuck From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 5 13:10:42 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 11:10:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <46DE8CB1.16005.1A406BB6@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <301721.45062.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 5 Sep 2007 at 10:46, Chris M wrote: > > > Do you mean like development systems? I'm not > aware > > of any pre-AT '286's - not saying there weren't > any. > > They seem to have less exposure then pre-5150 > Intel > > stuph. > > Definitely were. I worked on the port for the > Durango Poppy, for > example, using early steppings of the 80286. > Interesting thing is > that pre-production silicon was available on the 286 > and the 186 at > about the same time. Yes that does seem to be true. Was the 80186 actually intended for embedded applications? It readily found it's way into that market (probably weren't too many embedded controllers when it was introduced though). > I wonder if there were any 80286 coprocessor plug-in > boards for the > XT before the AT? I'm guessing so, w/o specific knowledge. One of the first though was the Orchid Turbo-186, but was revamped with a '286 before very long. There were patents assigned to the original board: www.freepatentsonline.com/4799150.html funny, Google's cached deposits are as slow as the original server's. Here's a neato question: You mentioned coprocessor boards, and in fact some kinda sorta functioned that way (in some sense - stuff got offloaded to the mpu on the board I guess). But what were some early ancillary processor boards for the pc/at/?. That is, where you plugged a whole 'nother puter into your main puter, and got to run separate apps off of that? Hmmmmm ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469 From vrs at msn.com Wed Sep 5 13:11:51 2007 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 11:11:51 -0700 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? References: <1189001716.24579.8.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> <46DE72DF.32420.19DB8DA8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <230201c7efe8$3bdba510$6600a8c0@vrsxp> From: "Chuck Guzis": > If my memory serves, the first ports of Unix for the 80286 weren't > for the PC/AT (i.e. earlier) and were for Xenix, not Unix (yes, I > know, a minor quibble). It was an odd arrangement--Microsoft was > working on the utilities, etc. and Intel was working on the kernel > code. The whole affair seemed to take forever. I don't recall which was "first", but I worked with the team that did the XENIX kernel work at Intel. (That work was done on Multibus systems.) Vince From vrs at msn.com Wed Sep 5 13:17:45 2007 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 11:17:45 -0700 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? References: <1189001716.24579.8.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu><46DE72DF.32420.19DB8DA8@cclist.sydex.com> <46DEE40E.2070704@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <230401c7efe9$0f5c8ad0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> From: "woodelf": > Did not Xenix follow the Small 8086 model - 64K data & 64K code? XENIX 286 would run small, middle, large, and huge model programs. Most of the utility programs were built small model, as they didn't need much memory. I remember that 'vi' was built middle model. I think back on v7 it was much the same -- most programs didn't need seperate I and D, but vi did. I actually ported GNU emacs to XENIX 286 once. That was a waste of time -- when I got it working, there was only enough RAM left to enter about 40 characters into the buffer. And I was on a 2Mb machine, which was considered large at the time! Vince From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 5 13:17:46 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 11:17:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AT&T PC6300 available, in Fort Worth, TX, USA In-Reply-To: <46DE8E7B.27008.1A476964@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <249964.966.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > Wasn't it an Olivetti machine under the skin? Yes. Made by Olivetti. It did appear under their name in some incarnations, and also Xerox. The Xerox version came with a b $ w monitor. Damn their so hard to find. > There were other 8086-based PeeCee-type machines. > The Stearns is one > that comes to mind. Made somewhere in the Twin > Cities (Minneapolis- > St. Paul) area, IIRC. NEC APC, APC III off the top of my head. There's others: ACT Apricot F1 ACT Apricot F10 ACT Apricot F2 ACT Apricot PC ACT Apricot Portable ACT Apricot Xi Altos 586 Amstrad PC20 Datavue 25 Fujitzu Micro 16s Grid Case Grid Compass Hewlett-Packard HP-110 Morrow Pivot Olivetti M21 Olivetti M24 Olympia People Osborne Encore Osborne Vaden Panafacom Limited Duet-16 Sinclair PC200 there are a few missing... found this: http://www.delorie.com/djgpp/16bit/gcc/ "very much experimental". There has been a bit of buzz about this same topic on the Linux-86 mailing list. Alan Cox regularly chimes in there. found this too: http://www.redsofts.com/soft/119/18329/ NGASM_80868088_Assembler.html ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 5 13:19:24 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 11:19:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <230201c7efe8$3bdba510$6600a8c0@vrsxp> Message-ID: <109927.52699.qm@web61024.mail.yahoo.com> --- Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > I don't recall which was "first", but I worked with > the team that > did the XENIX kernel work at Intel. (That work was > done on Multibus > systems.) M$ sold XENIX to SCO, right? Did that include every version of XENIX (68000, Tandy 6000 for instance?). ____________________________________________________________________________________ Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 5 13:19:19 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 11:19:19 -0700 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: <46DEEEC1.5090206@philpem.me.uk> References: , <46DEEEC1.5090206@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <46DE90B7.4807.1A50238B@cclist.sydex.com> Someone wrote: PS. Iv'e got the 7400 pinout downloaded already. :) Just remember that the 7401 is not an OC version of the 7400. :) I've got to keep going back to the databook for the chips with "middle" supply pins, like the 7475. Cheers, Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Sep 5 13:20:30 2007 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 19:20:30 +0100 Subject: GALs and PALs (was Re: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia)) In-Reply-To: <680365.8423.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> References: <680365.8423.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46DEF36E.2050709@philpem.me.uk> Chris M wrote: > So the benefits of pals/gals are not so much > integration or a high degree of, but rather > modification? You wouldn't want to, for instance, > attempt a *reproduction* (of say a unobtainium piece > of silicon) by using a bunch of galpals instead of an > FPGA? The main thing they're good for is squashing a few TTL chips worth of address decoding into a single chip. CPLDs are good for adding simple peripheral interfaces (e.g. I2C, SPI, IDE) to a microprocessor design. FPGAs are good for taking a board full of really fast logic and squashing the whole thing into a single chip. Admittedly a single chip that needs a beastly amount of power and a heatsink similar to those used on the old Pentiums, but a single chip nontheless. > How much does the typical programmer cost? Are they > *easy enough* to build? Very easy. Two 7407 buffers, a 74HC573 latch, a few passives and an MC34063-based switch mode voltage converter. The three-diode 3.3V "regulator" is dire and should be replaced with a proper LDO, which isn't difficult - +VE to where D2's anode would go, Vout to where D4's cathode would go, remove R25 and the ground point is the ground-facing side of R25. I'd also be sorely tempted to replace Q2 with an N-channel enhancement-mode MOSFET (no voltage drop!), but that's entirely optional. As presented, though, the design works fine. Just you might have to substitute some parts (especially the transistors) based on local availability. Just about any jellybean medium-power PNP transistor will do for Q2, and Q1 can be swapped for just about any NPN transistor (e.g. BC557, 2N3904) as it's used solely as an inverter for the LATCH signal. The GALBlast software itself is a bit nasty, and only supports 8.3 filenames (despite being a 32-bit application), but it gets the job done. You'll need to install UserPort if you're running Win2K, XP or 2003, otherwise you'll get a "Privileged Instruction" fatal error from Windows, due to the OUT and IN (port I/O) instructions being limited to ring-0 (kernel mode) on the NT-based OSes. Userport allows port I/O, but also allows you to specify allowed port ranges (e.g. just the parallel ports) while blocking everything else. -- Phil. | (\_/) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny classiccmp at philpem.me.uk | (='.'=) into your signature to help him gain http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | (")_(") world domination. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 5 13:25:30 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 11:25:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <230401c7efe9$0f5c8ad0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> Message-ID: <202458.91901.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> --- Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > From: "woodelf": > > Did not Xenix follow the Small 8086 model - 64K > data & 64K code? > > XENIX 286 would run small, middle, large, and huge > model programs. Huge for the '286 would indicate running in it's version of protected mode? I'm still a bit confused over the difference. I know there was a Windows-286 - does this mean it utilized the '286 in full force - 16megs of ram, etc.? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 5 13:31:15 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 11:31:15 -0700 Subject: AT&T PC6300 available, in Fort Worth, TX, USA In-Reply-To: <249964.966.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> References: <46DE8E7B.27008.1A476964@cclist.sydex.com>, <249964.966.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46DE9383.26813.1A5B0E08@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Sep 2007 at 11:17, Chris M wrote: > NEC APC, APC III off the top of my head. There's > others: I meant systems that would load and run PC-DOS right out of the box, i.e. "PC compatible" systems. The Grid would fall under that heading, but not many of the others--and certainly not the NEC APC. The 8086 was attractive for the Grid because it came in a low-power CMOS version--the 80c88 came along a bit later. Cheers, Chuck From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 13:35:15 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 11:35:15 -0700 Subject: GALs and PALs (was Re: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia)) In-Reply-To: <680365.8423.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> References: <46DEE722.4010809@jetnet.ab.ca> <680365.8423.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90709051135m51ad606bma3bb4c3a33a6f331@mail.gmail.com> On 9/5/07, Chris M wrote: > How much does the typical programmer cost? Are they > *easy enough* to build? > If you do eBay, you could currently pick up a used BP Microsystems PLD-1100 for $25 (330156113930) or a PLD-1128 for $75 (250055852664), sometimes cheaper. Both of those do GAL22V10 & PALCE22V10 devices. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 5 13:36:46 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 11:36:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM Radio PC's Message-ID: <376021.96224.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> I haven't yet laid my hands on them, idiot eBay vendors keep using my stored address instead of sending it where I tell them, but I have a couple of these. Info seems a little hard to find. Used an 80c186 so arguably they're on topic. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. http://travel.yahoo.com/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 5 13:38:22 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 11:38:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GALs and PALs (was Re: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia)) In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90709051135m51ad606bma3bb4c3a33a6f331@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <235733.81649.qm@web61016.mail.yahoo.com> --- Glen Slick wrote: > On 9/5/07, Chris M wrote: > > How much does the typical programmer cost? Are > they > > *easy enough* to build? > > > > If you do eBay, you could currently pick up a used > BP Microsystems > PLD-1100 for $25 (330156113930) or a PLD-1128 for > $75 (250055852664), > sometimes cheaper. > > Both of those do GAL22V10 & PALCE22V10 devices. Ok, thanks. But do these also read gals/pals? I have an old XT/IDE card *somewhere* that I want to replicate. The vintage world is crying out for these suckers! Good luck getting a new hard drive to work w/it though I guess.. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Got a little couch potato? Check out fun summer activities for kids. http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=summer+activities+for+kids&cs=bz From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Sep 5 13:45:11 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 12:45:11 -0600 Subject: GALs and PALs (was Re: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia)) In-Reply-To: <680365.8423.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> References: <680365.8423.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46DEF937.3030807@jetnet.ab.ca> Chris M wrote: > So the benefits of pals/gals are not so much > integration or a high degree of, but rather > modification? You wouldn't want to, for instance, > attempt a *reproduction* (of say a unobtainium piece > of silicon) by using a bunch of galpals instead of an > FPGA? > How much does the typical programmer cost? Are they > *easy enough* to build? Most of the New Eprom programmers I have seen do GALS. However the last crop of programmers are windows USB that I have been looking around on the net. Atmel has a nice CPLD programing kit for about $100 US. Most low end EPROM programmers are about the same price. The only reason I am not using the CPLD's is the PCB package I am using does not have a 84 Pin PLCC thru the hole footprint. Ben alias Woodelf PS. The real reason is no round tuit's for the footprint once I decide on the CPU instruction set. From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Sep 5 13:46:43 2007 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 20:46:43 +0200 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <46DEB0CC.10008@gmail.com> References: <575131af0709031313n4e253299rf657ba86981f044f@mail.gmail.com> <714027.54992.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> <20070904094815.0c63b513@SirToby.dinner41.local> <46DEB0CC.10008@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070905204643.69c75881@SirToby.dinner41.local> On Wed, 05 Sep 2007 09:36:12 -0400 Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Nope. The RT AIX is the predecessor of the current AIX. You're > thinking of AOS, which was a port of 4.3BSD (or was it 4.2BSD?). Ohh, I didn't know that there was a version of AIX for the RT. I allways thought there was only BSD for the RT. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 5 13:47:34 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 11:47:34 -0700 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <202458.91901.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> References: <230401c7efe9$0f5c8ad0$6600a8c0@vrsxp>, <202458.91901.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46DE9756.26496.1A6A001E@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Sep 2007 at 11:25, Chris M wrote: > Huge for the '286 would indicate running in it's > version of protected mode? I'm still a bit confused > over the difference. "Tiny" = 1 segment/selector for both code and data "Small" = 1 segment for code; 1 segment for data "Compact" = 1 segment for code; more than one for data "Medium" = more than one segment for code; 1 segment for data "Large" = more than one segment for both code and data, but no data item larger than 64K "Huge" = more than one segment for both code and data, with individual data elements larger than 64K. There's one model not categorized; one segment for code, and more than one for data with elements larger than 64K. I found that I used this model more than "Huge". Cheers, Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Sep 5 13:48:59 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 12:48:59 -0600 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: <46DE90B7.4807.1A50238B@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <46DEEEC1.5090206@philpem.me.uk> <46DE90B7.4807.1A50238B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46DEFA1B.8070901@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Someone wrote: > > PS. Iv'e got the 7400 pinout downloaded already. :) > > Just remember that the 7401 is not an OC version of the 7400. :) > I've got to keep going back to the databook for the chips with > "middle" supply pins, like the 7475. I don't use 4 bit latches. No problem for me :) Other than the 4 bit adder 7486 I can't think of any common chips with middle supply pins. > Cheers, > Chuck From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Sep 5 13:48:20 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 14:48:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: D-shell sizes [was Re: Slightly rare Mac 512k with D(?)-25 connector] In-Reply-To: <46DEE328.6080804@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200709050342.l853gaMx098454@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200709051604.MAA10529@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <46DEE328.6080804@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200709051853.OAA11737@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > Plus of course there are some weird designs out there in D-shells > with a variety of pin sizes - e.g. 13W3 connectors for Sun/SGI video, > and ISTR HP using something similar but with a smaller (DA?) shell > size. I have a machine somewhere that uses 3W3 - basically, 13W3 without the ten individual pins, and the shell shrunk correspondingly, to about DA size (it's at home and I'm not, so I can't be precise about the shell size). > (Also, weren't some Apollo token ring connectors something like a 5W2 > on an DE-sized shell?) Could be; I don't know either way, though. > There's some other weird stuff about too which uses D-type shells > with round pins, but a much smaller form-factor (shell and pin > diameters). I have a few SBus SCSI/Ethernet cards for which the Ethernet is a funny connector with a shell that looks about like a DA scaled by 1/2, and the female connector just has hollow metal cylinders for the pins, without the plastic fill that most female D-shell connectors have. (Also, it's possible that pin sex and shell sex are reversed with respect to one another, as compared to full-size D-shell connectors - again, they're at home and I'm not.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Sep 5 13:54:55 2007 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 20:54:55 +0200 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <230401c7efe9$0f5c8ad0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> References: <1189001716.24579.8.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> <46DE72DF.32420.19DB8DA8@cclist.sydex.com> <46DEE40E.2070704@jetnet.ab.ca> <230401c7efe9$0f5c8ad0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> Message-ID: <20070905205455.657efd67@SirToby.dinner41.local> On Wed, 5 Sep 2007 11:17:45 -0700 "Vincent Slyngstad" wrote: > I actually ported GNU emacs to XENIX 286 once. That was a waste > of time -- when I got it working, there was only enough RAM left > to enter about 40 characters into the buffer. And I was on a 2Mb > machine, which was considered large at the time! EMACS = Eight Megabytes And Continuously Swapping. ;-) -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 14:06:27 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 15:06:27 -0400 Subject: D-shell sizes [was Re: Slightly rare Mac 512k with D(?)-25 connector] In-Reply-To: <200709051853.OAA11737@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200709050342.l853gaMx098454@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200709051604.MAA10529@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <46DEE328.6080804@yahoo.co.uk> <200709051853.OAA11737@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <46DEFE33.3010709@gmail.com> der Mouse wrote: >> Plus of course there are some weird designs out there in D-shells >> with a variety of pin sizes - e.g. 13W3 connectors for Sun/SGI video, >> and ISTR HP using something similar but with a smaller (DA?) shell >> size. > > I have a machine somewhere that uses 3W3 - basically, 13W3 without the > ten individual pins, and the shell shrunk correspondingly, to about DA > size (it's at home and I'm not, so I can't be precise about the shell > size). I can verify that a 3w3 is actually a DA3w3. >> (Also, weren't some Apollo token ring connectors something like a 5W2 >> on an DE-sized shell?) > > Could be; I don't know either way, though. The only 5w2 I know of is the DC5w2, which is quite a bit bigger than a DE-shell. I don't know how one would go about cramming five mini-coax connectors into a DE-shell. >> There's some other weird stuff about too which uses D-type shells >> with round pins, but a much smaller form-factor (shell and pin >> diameters). > > I have a few SBus SCSI/Ethernet cards for which the Ethernet is a funny > connector with a shell that looks about like a DA scaled by 1/2, and > the female connector just has hollow metal cylinders for the pins, > without the plastic fill that most female D-shell connectors have. > (Also, it's possible that pin sex and shell sex are reversed with > respect to one another, as compared to full-size D-shell connectors - > again, they're at home and I'm not.) There was also AAUI at one time, no? Peace... Sridhar From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Sep 5 14:06:44 2007 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 21:06:44 +0200 Subject: D-shell sizes [was Re: Slightly rare Mac 512k with D(?)-25 connector] In-Reply-To: <46DEE328.6080804@yahoo.co.uk> References: <200709050342.l853gaMx098454@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200709051604.MAA10529@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <46DEE328.6080804@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20070905210644.428ffbbd@SirToby.dinner41.local> On Wed, 05 Sep 2007 18:11:04 +0100 Jules Richardson wrote: > Also, weren't some Apollo token ring connectors something like a 5W2 > on an DE-sized shell? IIRC the ATR used 7W2 in a DA shell. Some IBM graphic cards use 3W3 in a DA shell. Intergraph used some wired D shell like connectors with more then three coax connectors and lots of normal pins. I have SMD cables on my PDP-11/73 with D shell like connectors and high density pins. I think the big one is DC size with 68 pins and the smaler one is DA size with 26 pins. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Sep 5 14:07:55 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 15:07:55 -0400 Subject: AT&T PC6300 available, in Fort Worth, TX, USA In-Reply-To: <46DE8E7B.27008.1A476964@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46DE1590.3070707@pacbell.net>, <820084.84058.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <46DE8E7B.27008.1A476964@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <5A34736E-18F5-4366-AB70-AD50C618B6D0@neurotica.com> On Sep 5, 2007, at 2:09 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> I'm not so sure about SOTA, but an interesting >> machine IMHO. May take a number of peecee style >> expansion cards (but DON'T quote me on that). Uses an >> 8086 instead of the typical 8088. > > When Sears had a chain of computer stores, they really flogged the > 6300s. I don't know if I'd call the 6300 "state of the art" though. > Wasn't it an Olivetti machine under the skin? Yes, it was built by Olivetti. They sure are nice machines. I've been in touch with the guy in Texas and am going to try to grab the machine...I've wanted one for a long time; I used to sell and service those machines at an after-school job when I was a teenager. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From paco.linux at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 14:12:56 2007 From: paco.linux at gmail.com (Paco Linux) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 21:12:56 +0200 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <4677.217.225.115.249.1189018129.squirrel@217.225.115.249> References: <1189001716.24579.8.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> <46DE72DF.32420.19DB8DA8@cclist.sydex.com> <4677.217.225.115.249.1189018129.squirrel@217.225.115.249> Message-ID: Hi Seems that some copies have survived: ac:~/Desktop/OSes/microport paco$ strings build-disk.img | more SYSV386 ERROR reading bootstrap Base memory < 512k, can't boot UNIX Diskette unit 0 must be quad density Loading Unix Paco On 9/5/07, Holger Veit wrote: > > > Chuck Guzis said: > > On 5 Sep 2007 at 10:15, Brian Wheeler wrote: > > > >> I don't suppose anybody knows where one would dig up old unixes for > 8086 > >> or 80286 based PCs? Source would be a big bonus. I've been playing > >> with the bcc compiler and the V7 source and just curious what "real" > >> ports looked like. > > > > If my memory serves, the first ports of Unix for the 80286 weren't > > for the PC/AT (i.e. earlier) and were for Xenix, not Unix (yes, I > > know, a minor quibble). It was an odd arrangement--Microsoft was > > working on the utilities, etc. and Intel was working on the kernel > > code. The whole affair seemed to take forever. > > Long time ago I had 5.25" floppies for a Microport/286 Unix in hands, > later a 386 version of that. I think this was a real SYSV UNIX, not a > Xenix UNIX-lookalike. Must have been in the mid 80s, but eventually these > floppies got lost when the 386 and the various 386bsd and Linux > experiments came up. Unfortunately, this Unix died together with Microport > long ago, and not only I have lost the media set. > > Regards > > -- > Holger > From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 14:16:51 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 15:16:51 -0400 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <868FBACC-B088-48FA-8CF4-7D16D04063B6@neurotica.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709031441w606c7373g32ad9614ce8efaf2@mail.gmail.com> <200709032153.45687.pat@computer-refuge.org> <575131af0709040343y6cb9cb3cs2cf7820740e4da8@mail.gmail.com> <868FBACC-B088-48FA-8CF4-7D16D04063B6@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <46DF00A3.7080307@gmail.com> Dave McGuire wrote: >> I have nothing whatsover backwards and kindly don't make assumptions. >> I stated that the "G5" - the PPC970 family - is a dual-core POWER4; >> given that I was talking to someone who claims good knowledge of the >> POWER processors but seems not to be so /au fait/ with PowerPC, I did >> not see any necessity to spell out that POWER4 is a quad-core design. >> PPC970 also adds Altivec-compatible SIMD instructions to POWER, but is >> a highly capable 64-bit implementation of POWER. > > The PPC970 is a dual-core processor? The one I'm typing this on > certainly doesn't seem to be. Not all are, but they were available. Still are, if you want to get an IBM Bladecenter JS20. Just not in a Mac. >> I'm not aware of much that modern PPC processers can't do that POWER >> can, other than things intended for the support of legacy IBM OSs such >> as OS/400 or zOS. > > z/OS is a "legacy" OS? Sure doesn't look that way to me. > > Am I just blind today or something? I was going to say something to that effect. *sigh* I believe MVS is selling/running on a greater number of copies now than it ever has in the past. Also, in other messages in this thread, people have been saying stuff to the effect that pSeries and zSeries aren't architecturally all that different anymore. Anyone who says that hasn't used zSeries hardware. That would be like saying that the Tandem NonStop S is similar to the SGI Indigo^2 because they're both based on MIPS R4400. Or that the Cray T3E is similar to the Compaq Alphastation 1200 because they're both based on Alpha EV56. Hogwash. Peace... Sridhar From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 14:18:09 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 14:18:09 -0500 Subject: 8k Mac development environments In-Reply-To: <46DEE86E.9080104@bitsavers.org> References: <46DEE86E.9080104@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 9/5/07, Al Kossow wrote: > > > There's a set of those at a downtown bookstore > > The entire set was distributed as PDF's on a CD. I wouldn't bother > with the dead tree version. There was also an overview volume added > in the later versions. I figured it was available electronically - one of the reasons I didn't get it (cost was the other - $20 for the set and I might have). -ethan From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 14:18:59 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 15:18:59 -0400 Subject: D-shell sizes [was Re: Slightly rare Mac 512k with D(?)-25 connector] In-Reply-To: <46DEFE33.3010709@gmail.com> References: <200709050342.l853gaMx098454@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200709051604.MAA10529@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <46DEE328.6080804@yahoo.co.uk> <200709051853.OAA11737@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <46DEFE33.3010709@gmail.com> Message-ID: <46DF0123.7090009@gmail.com> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > The only 5w2 I know of is the DC5w2, which is quite a bit bigger than a > DE-shell. I don't know how one would go about cramming five mini-coax > connectors into a DE-shell. Crap. I just realized I had it backwards. *never mind* Peace... Sridhar From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 14:19:24 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 14:19:24 -0500 Subject: GALs and PALs (was Re: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia)) In-Reply-To: <46DEE722.4010809@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <46DEE722.4010809@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 9/5/07, woodelf wrote: > I suspect 18 pin GAL is a typo. They come in 20 and 24(thin) pin packages. Yes... sorry... I was working with 74C922s and some flavor of PIC in 18-pin packages and entered the wrong number. The 16V8 is in a 20-pin package. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 14:21:36 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 14:21:36 -0500 Subject: D-shell sizes [was Re: Slightly rare Mac 512k with D(?)-25 connector] In-Reply-To: <200709051853.OAA11737@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200709050342.l853gaMx098454@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200709051604.MAA10529@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <46DEE328.6080804@yahoo.co.uk> <200709051853.OAA11737@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: On 9/5/07, der Mouse wrote: > I have a machine somewhere that uses 3W3 - basically, 13W3 without the > ten individual pins, and the shell shrunk correspondingly, to about DA > size (it's at home and I'm not, so I can't be precise about the shell > size). Sounds like the back of one of my DEC MIPS workstations... a DA shell with enough room for 3 large coax pins. Not sure how to call it. -ethan From ploopster at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 14:23:25 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 15:23:25 -0400 Subject: D-shell sizes [was Re: Slightly rare Mac 512k with D(?)-25 connector] In-Reply-To: References: <200709050342.l853gaMx098454@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200709051604.MAA10529@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <46DEE328.6080804@yahoo.co.uk> <200709051853.OAA11737@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <46DF022D.3080804@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 9/5/07, der Mouse wrote: >> I have a machine somewhere that uses 3W3 - basically, 13W3 without the >> ten individual pins, and the shell shrunk correspondingly, to about DA >> size (it's at home and I'm not, so I can't be precise about the shell >> size). > > Sounds like the back of one of my DEC MIPS workstations... a DA shell > with enough room for 3 large coax pins. > > Not sure how to call it. DA3w3. Peace... Sridhar From jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de Wed Sep 5 14:32:04 2007 From: jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de (Jochen Kunz) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 21:32:04 +0200 Subject: GALs and PALs (was Re: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia)) In-Reply-To: <680365.8423.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> References: <46DEE722.4010809@jetnet.ab.ca> <680365.8423.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070905213204.45f40903@SirToby.dinner41.local> On Wed, 5 Sep 2007 10:51:05 -0700 (PDT) Chris M wrote: > So the benefits of pals/gals are not so much > integration or a high degree of, but rather > modification? There are many different variants of PALs. Clocked, registered, tristate, ... I can't remember waht was available. GALs have configurable outputs. With a PAL you have to choose a special chip to get tristate outputs. You need an other chip for open collector outputs. (Or somthing like that.) A GAL has all this build in. You can switch the type by programming it. So a single type, a GAL 16V8, can replace many different PAL variants. > You wouldn't want to, for instance, > attempt a *reproduction* (of say a unobtainium piece > of silicon) by using a bunch of galpals instead of an > FPGA? GALs are much, _much_ lower integrated as FPGAs. FPGAs are more flexible then GALs also. > How much does the typical programmer cost? Are they > *easy enough* to build? A long time ago I was building a GAL programmer baised on a BASIC stamp. Given the limited capabilities of the BASIC stamp you can imagin that it isn't that hard to programm a GAL. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/ From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 5 14:47:26 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 12:47:26 -0700 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: <46DEFA1B.8070901@jetnet.ab.ca> References: , <46DE90B7.4807.1A50238B@cclist.sydex.com>, <46DEFA1B.8070901@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <46DEA55E.10909.1AA0CE69@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Sep 2007 at 12:48, woodelf wrote: > I don't use 4 bit latches. No problem for me :) > Other than the 4 bit adder 7486 I can't think of any common > chips with middle supply pins. If your designs are old enough, there are a bunch. 7441 = BCD to 7- segment gas tube driver. 7492, 7493 = 4 bit counter, 7473 = dual JK FF, 7476 = dual JK FF and almost all of the other "non-7400" TTL stuff, such as the MC400, 500, 2000, etc. series. It seems to me that there was one oddball case of a 74L series chip having a different pinout that the 74 "vanilla" flavor. Anyone remember? Cheers, Chuck From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 14:57:52 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 14:57:52 -0500 Subject: D-shell sizes [was Re: Slightly rare Mac 512k with D(?)-25 connector] In-Reply-To: <200709051853.OAA11737@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200709050342.l853gaMx098454@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200709051604.MAA10529@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <46DEE328.6080804@yahoo.co.uk> <200709051853.OAA11737@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <51ea77730709051257g413073dcl71993edf07e43a10@mail.gmail.com> On 9/5/07, der Mouse wrote: > I have a machine somewhere that uses 3W3 - basically, 13W3 without the > ten individual pins, and the shell shrunk correspondingly, to about DA > size (it's at home and I'm not, so I can't be precise about the shell > size). I believe the color card on my Vaxstation 3100 uses this connector. I'd always called it "0W3." From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 5 15:05:23 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 13:05:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <1189001716.24579.8.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> References: <1189001716.24579.8.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> Message-ID: <20070905130438.A86688@shell.lmi.net> Xenix was kinda bloated. Although it would run happily on an XT, it wanted 16M of hard disk! From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 5 15:08:23 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 13:08:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Slightly rare Mac 512k with D(?)-25 connector In-Reply-To: References: <200709050342.l853gaMx098454@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20070905130716.V86688@shell.lmi.net> Is that one of the "rare" ones with the developers' names on the inside of the case :-? On Wed, 5 Sep 2007, Mark Tapley wrote: > Forgotten what the correct designation for those D-connectors > is, Believe it or not, that one IS a DB25. From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Wed Sep 5 08:51:43 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 14:51:43 +0100 Subject: British Computers Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA8F@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Well trust me to forget Mentec. They have gone very quiet. I doubt they have made (or have had made) any processor boards in a while. Pity ... But there it is.. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of David Cantrell Sent: 05 September 2007 12:02 To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: British Computers On Mon, Sep 03, 2007 at 01:57:12PM +0100, Peter Coghlan wrote: > Several multinationals had or have a presence in Ireland ... > > Many of these built computers or peripherals here for the European market. > However, it is pretty much the same as equipment thats found > everywhere else in the world. I am not aware of anything that could be > regarded as being uniquely Irish in the same way that for example > Acorn kit could be regarded as being British. I'd be inclined to count the Mentec PDP-11s, even though they didn't create them to start with. -- David Cantrell | Godless Liberal Elitist When a man is tired of London, he is tired of life -- Samuel Johnson From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Wed Sep 5 13:38:57 2007 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 20:38:57 +0200 (CEST) Subject: GALs and PALs (was Re: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia)) In-Reply-To: <46DEE722.4010809@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <46DEE722.4010809@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <4657.217.225.115.249.1189017537.squirrel@217.225.115.249> woodelf said: > Ethan Dicks wrote: >> If you are designing your own circuits, a 18 or 24-pin GAL can replace >> several square inches of TTL, with the benefit of being able to make >> changes later that don't involve cutting traces and adding blue wires. >> You lose the ability to poke around in the middle of select circuits, >> and to make substantial changes, but it all depends on what your goals >> for the project are if that's a worthwhile tradeoff or not. You do >> have to start with a GAL programmer, though. Not all hobbyists have >> them, so if you make a product to sell, as Bob does, you should >> consider selling programmed parts for those that can't burn their own. > > That is the downside , the programmer for them. > I suspect 18 pin GAL is a typo. They come in 20 and 24(thin) pin packages. There are also 28 pin versions. There is a very good design on the internet, namely the GALBLAST of Manfred Winterhoff (check google). But although they are handy, IMHO they are meanwhile outdated. I prefer CPLDs (xilinx 9536 or 72 for instance) for the same purpose even if these require PLCC44 or 84 pin sockets, because they are even easier to program through their boundery scan interface, and do no longer need the obscure programming voltages. GALs are good for any kind of decoding logic, but are rather weak when it comes to multilevel sequential logic. So I'd say: while a GAL might replace square inches of TTLs (I'd think about the graveyard of 7400, 7404, 7402, 7432, 7451, 7454 chips frequently found in old machines, where often a well-specified 74188 ROM decoder would have been sufficient), a CPLD will replace some inches of GAL glue logic. Plus the CPLD usually doesn't suck that much current as the old PAL/GAL technology. Regards -- Holger From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Wed Sep 5 13:48:49 2007 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 20:48:49 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <46DE72DF.32420.19DB8DA8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1189001716.24579.8.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> <46DE72DF.32420.19DB8DA8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <4677.217.225.115.249.1189018129.squirrel@217.225.115.249> Chuck Guzis said: > On 5 Sep 2007 at 10:15, Brian Wheeler wrote: > >> I don't suppose anybody knows where one would dig up old unixes for 8086 >> or 80286 based PCs? Source would be a big bonus. I've been playing >> with the bcc compiler and the V7 source and just curious what "real" >> ports looked like. > > If my memory serves, the first ports of Unix for the 80286 weren't > for the PC/AT (i.e. earlier) and were for Xenix, not Unix (yes, I > know, a minor quibble). It was an odd arrangement--Microsoft was > working on the utilities, etc. and Intel was working on the kernel > code. The whole affair seemed to take forever. Long time ago I had 5.25" floppies for a Microport/286 Unix in hands, later a 386 version of that. I think this was a real SYSV UNIX, not a Xenix UNIX-lookalike. Must have been in the mid 80s, but eventually these floppies got lost when the 386 and the various 386bsd and Linux experiments came up. Unfortunately, this Unix died together with Microport long ago, and not only I have lost the media set. Regards -- Holger From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Wed Sep 5 14:16:08 2007 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Holger Veit) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 21:16:08 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: <61A9E3F8-9993-44B0-AF78-1C0E11D25230@neurotica.com> References: <20070904095010.f73591f2.hugh@blemings.org> <200709042225.47351.rtellason@verizon.net> <200709050056.28319.rtellason@verizon.net> <61A9E3F8-9993-44B0-AF78-1C0E11D25230@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <4695.217.225.115.249.1189019768.squirrel@217.225.115.249> Dave McGuire said: > It's worth noting that some CPLD families are more-or-less direct > implementations of common PAL architectures. A Xilinx XC9536 CPLD, > for example, is very similar to two of what might have been called > PAL36V18. This comes in very handy if you're experienced with PAL > design and want to move into higher-density devices. Nah, while you can use ABEL and PALASM scripts to convert into programming patterns for a CPLD, you can't vice versa map Verilog and VHDL descriptions of certain complexity into PALs/GALs. It is not the gate count alone that counts, but at that point the flexibility of the interconnection network between the logic blocks. A difficulty with GAL/PALs is that their logic blocks typically contain a flipflop whose output is more or less directly associated with an output pin of the chip. You can feed it back to the input and/or matrix to build Moore-style finite state machines, but you usually lose an output pin for those hidden feedbacks. CPLDs in contrast separate logic blocks an I/O blocks and allow almost free assignment between logic and I/O. Regards -- Holger From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 5 15:34:32 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 13:34:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <46DE72DF.32420.19DB8DA8@cclist.sydex.com> References: <1189001716.24579.8.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> <46DE72DF.32420.19DB8DA8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070905133249.R86688@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 5 Sep 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > If my memory serves, the first ports of Unix for the 80286 weren't > for the PC/AT (i.e. earlier) and were for Xenix, not Unix (yes, I > know, a minor quibble). It was an odd arrangement--Microsoft was > working on the utilities, etc. and Intel was working on the kernel > code. The whole affair seemed to take forever. IIRC, Xenix WAS Unix. There were two parts of a Unix license, code and name. Xenix was fully licensed on code, but did not license the "Unix" name trademark. Leastwise, that's how it was written up in infoworld, etc. at the time. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Sep 5 15:43:21 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 13:43:21 -0700 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) References: , <46DE90B7.4807.1A50238B@cclist.sydex.com>, <46DEFA1B.8070901@jetnet.ab.ca> <46DEA55E.10909.1AA0CE69@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46DF14E9.5E644BCB@cs.ubc.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 5 Sep 2007 at 12:48, woodelf wrote: > > > I don't use 4 bit latches. No problem for me :) > > Other than the 4 bit adder 7486 I can't think of any common > > chips with middle supply pins. > > If your designs are old enough, there are a bunch. 7441 = BCD to > 7-segment gas tube driver. 7492, 7493 = 4 bit counter, 7473 = dual JK ^^^^^^^^^ 7441=nixie tube driver > FF, 7476 = dual JK FF and almost all of the other "non-7400" TTL > stuff, such as the MC400, 500, 2000, etc. series. (For me, the 7473 always seemed to stand out as the oddball pinout as the chip was so common.) > It seems to me that there was one oddball case of a 74L series chip > having a different pinout that the 74 "vanilla" flavor. Anyone > remember? The 74L86 quad XOR pinout differs from that of 7486, also 'L85/'85, 'L93/'93, 'L95/'95. From mtapley at swri.edu Wed Sep 5 15:55:04 2007 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 15:55:04 -0500 Subject: D-shell sizes In-Reply-To: <200709051854.l85IsYkn018065@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200709051854.l85IsYkn018065@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: I am *so* sorry - I left off the correct letter (thought it was "B", just wasn't sure) in hopes of *avoiding* kicking off the annual D-shell connector nomenclature thread. Have we dug up the horse bones, beat them into flour, baked the flour into bread, and punched it down enough now? Guess not. I'll add to the mess: At 13:54 -0500 9/5/07, der Mouse wrote: >I have a machine somewhere that uses 3W3 - basically, 13W3 without the >ten individual pins, and the shell shrunk correspondingly, to about DA >size (it's at home and I'm not, so I can't be precise about the shell >size). My DEC VAX4000VLC uses a connector that sounds just like that for video output. -- - Mark, 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From vrs at msn.com Wed Sep 5 15:55:44 2007 From: vrs at msn.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 13:55:44 -0700 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? References: <1189001716.24579.8.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu><46DE72DF.32420.19DB8DA8@cclist.sydex.com> <4677.217.225.115.249.1189018129.squirrel@217.225.115.249> Message-ID: <233e01c7efff$21171bd0$6600a8c0@vrsxp> From: "Holger Veit": > Long time ago I had 5.25" floppies for a Microport/286 Unix in hands, > later a 386 version of that. I think this was a real SYSV UNIX, not a > Xenix UNIX-lookalike. Must have been in the mid 80s, but eventually these > floppies got lost when the 386 and the various 386bsd and Linux > experiments came up. Unfortunately, this Unix died together with Microport > long ago, and not only I have lost the media set. I still have the pilot evaluation units of Intel's XENIX 3.0 distribution for the System 310 (Multibus 286). Vince From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 5 16:05:47 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 14:05:47 -0700 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <20070905133249.R86688@shell.lmi.net> References: <1189001716.24579.8.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu>, <46DE72DF.32420.19DB8DA8@cclist.sydex.com>, <20070905133249.R86688@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <46DEB7BB.7436.1AE88AFB@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Sep 2007 at 13:34, Fred Cisin wrote: > IIRC, Xenix WAS Unix. There were two parts of a Unix license, code and > name. Xenix was fully licensed on code, but did not license the "Unix" > name trademark. > Leastwise, that's how it was written up in infoworld, etc. at the time. There were, I recall, some significant differences. Like BSD, I think it'd be safest to term it "Unix derivative". AT&T got really strange in the early 80's about their licensing terms. At some point, I think, they were pushing a per-seat fee. No more of "Pay us $50K and we'll send you a tape that you can play with however you'd like". I have MS-DOS 2.0 release notes from Microsoft that says that they intended to turn MS-DOS into a single-user Xenix-work-alike. Cheers, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Sep 5 16:10:26 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 17:10:26 -0400 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <46DF00A3.7080307@gmail.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709031441w606c7373g32ad9614ce8efaf2@mail.gmail.com> <200709032153.45687.pat@computer-refuge.org> <575131af0709040343y6cb9cb3cs2cf7820740e4da8@mail.gmail.com> <868FBACC-B088-48FA-8CF4-7D16D04063B6@neurotica.com> <46DF00A3.7080307@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9BB9C9F8-B1D6-4847-B0D3-456B9CFA7C27@neurotica.com> On Sep 5, 2007, at 3:16 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>> I'm not aware of much that modern PPC processers can't do that POWER >>> can, other than things intended for the support of legacy IBM OSs >>> such >>> as OS/400 or zOS. >> z/OS is a "legacy" OS? Sure doesn't look that way to me. >> Am I just blind today or something? > > I was going to say something to that effect. *sigh* > > I believe MVS is selling/running on a greater number of copies now > than it ever has in the past. Indeed, I've read that as well. > Also, in other messages in this thread, people have been saying > stuff to the effect that pSeries and zSeries aren't architecturally > all that different anymore. Anyone who says that hasn't used > zSeries hardware. That would be like saying that the Tandem NonStop > S is similar to the SGI Indigo^2 because they're both based on MIPS > R4400. Or that the Cray T3E is similar to the Compaq Alphastation > 1200 because they're both based on Alpha EV56. Hogwash. "Hogwash" is definitely a good way to put it. :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 16:12:42 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 17:12:42 -0400 Subject: D-shell sizes In-Reply-To: References: <200709051854.l85IsYkn018065@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > I am *so* sorry - I left off the correct letter (thought it was "B", > just wasn't sure) in hopes of *avoiding* kicking off the annual > D-shell connector nomenclature thread. Thats OK. I forgive you. So far, over the years NOBODY has managed to give the proper nomenclature. I suggest anyone interested should look up the mil standard. It tells all. -- Will, who has nothing more to add to this annual time waster. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 5 16:15:36 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 14:15:36 -0700 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: <46DF14E9.5E644BCB@cs.ubc.ca> References: , <46DF14E9.5E644BCB@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <46DEBA08.16574.1AF186A7@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Sep 2007 at 13:43, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > If your designs are old enough, there are a bunch. 7441 = BCD to > > 7-segment gas tube driver. 7492, 7493 = 4 bit counter, 7473 = dual JK > ^^^^^^^^^ 7441=nixie tube driver "Nixie" refers to a Burroughs-trademarked product. I believe that a 7441 can also drive Numicators. Also VFDs, so my term of "gas tube" isn't even accurate. How's that for pedantic? ;) > The 74L86 quad XOR pinout differs from that of 7486, also 'L85/'85, 'L93/'93, 'L95/'95. It was the L86 that I was thinking of. Gate pinout oriented as face- to-face instead of head-to-tail. "L" gates could be wire-ORed also; something I recall that you can find in the MITS 8800 front panel (along with bare mains AC traces). (The two ARE related in my computer, one accidental probe leading to the demise of an L00 in the Altair). Cheers, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Wed Sep 5 16:18:33 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 17:18:33 -0400 Subject: AT&T PC6300 available, in Fort Worth, TX, USA In-Reply-To: <820084.84058.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> References: <820084.84058.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <25D904FA-86DB-44CA-914D-AC9DE93DC990@neurotica.com> On Sep 5, 2007, at 1:27 PM, Chris M wrote: > Being that *presumably* it has color graphics > capability, someone should grab it. They're not that > easy to come by. Yup. And they do 640x400, which was kinda unusual at the time. > I'm not so sure about SOTA, but an interesting > machine IMHO. May take a number of peecee style > expansion cards (but DON'T quote me on that). Uses an > 8086 instead of the typical 8088. 8086 at 8MHz in fact. > Uses a passive-backplane motherboard. It does use a passive backplane for the ISA slots, but the logic board itself isn't a card in that backplane. The logic board is on the bottom of the machine (chips facing down, if memory serves) and that contains nearly all of the system logic. > A fun machine to tinker > around w/if you ask me. Oh, you didn't ask me...well > then BUZZ OFF! LOL LOL I spent quite a bit of time working on those machines. They are really, really nice. The monitors are crisp and sharp, the keyboards are *fantastic*, and the chassis are built like tanks. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Sep 5 17:10:41 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 15:10:41 -0700 Subject: Wang 300 Calc References: <51ea77730709041544x4c1e5364n3bdf843f8ed6a9f2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46DF2960.A22F3A2B@cs.ubc.ca> Jason T wrote: > > I've got a line on one of these old Nixie-tube calculators at > > a fair price. I know they used an outboard processor, making > > them little more than (very pretty) terminals to a central > > CPU. Are they of any use other than a doorstop or eye candy > > for the collection? (And don't say "harvest them for the Nixies!") Rick Bensene wrote: > The 300 - Series Wang Calculators consisted of two parts: an electronics > package, and > "Keyboard/Display Units". The electronics packages are usually > small-briefcase-sized (single-user) or longer, shorter packages with a > connector (or connectors for the multi-user versions) that the > keyboard/display units plug into. > > The Keyboard/Display units are pretty much useless by themselves -- they > need the "brains" in the electronics package to do anything. All the > keyboard/display units consist of are a keyboard and keyboard encoding > circuitry, and a Nixie tube display with display decode/driver > electronics. There are no mathematical electronics in the > Keyboard/display units. ... > The keyboard/display units have pretty simple circuitry inside them. It > wouldn't be too hard to build some kind of microprocessor or > microcontroller-based gizmo that would emulate the electronics package > and bring a Keyboard/Display unit to life. You'd need some good math > knowledge to implement the various math routines, but the interface is a > very simple multiplexed BCD display, and a six-bit key code for each > key, encoded by a diode matrix. I received two orphan 320K keyboard/display units a few years ago (no logic unit). Hobbled up a little level-shifting hardware and wrote some calculator code to drive them from a SWTPC 6800 - in other words the 6800 was replacing the missing logic unit. Worked fine but the next (intended) step was to redo it all in a microcontroller and stuff it inside the 320K case so it would be a stand-alone 'modern' nixie desktop calculator. Would be kinda nice because the 320K KDUs have a small footprint compared to other nixie desktop calcs. There is very little spare room in the case however. I think I anticipated it would be feasible if one used an external wal-wart (ugly) for the power transformer. The KDUs are very well built: cast aluminum case, micro-switches for the keys... From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Sep 5 17:11:03 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 15:11:03 -0700 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) References: , <46DF14E9.5E644BCB@cs.ubc.ca> <46DEBA08.16574.1AF186A7@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46DF2976.CD9A754A@cs.ubc.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 5 Sep 2007 at 13:43, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > > > If your designs are old enough, there are a bunch. 7441 = BCD to > > > 7-segment gas tube driver. 7492, 7493 = 4 bit counter, 7473 = dual JK > > ^^^^^^^^^ 7441=nixie tube driver > > "Nixie" refers to a Burroughs-trademarked product. I believe that a > 7441 can also drive Numicators. Also VFDs, so my term of "gas tube" > isn't even accurate. How's that for pedantic? ;) Whoops, yes, I should have said 1-of-10 decoder - was just trying to distinguish that it's logically quite different than a 7-seg decoder. I think I actually did see a 7441 used for something other than driving a nixie once, as you suggest, but I can't remember what it was in. From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 5 17:23:40 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 15:23:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AT&T PC6300 available, in Fort Worth, TX, USA In-Reply-To: <25D904FA-86DB-44CA-914D-AC9DE93DC990@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <237916.97495.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> --- Dave McGuire wrote: > On Sep 5, 2007, at 1:27 PM, Chris M wrote: > > Being that *presumably* it has color graphics > > capability, someone should grab it. They're not > that > > easy to come by. > > Yup. And they do 640x400, which was kinda > unusual at the time. Not so much unusual, just not so use-ual. Tandy 2000, NEC APC, APC III, a number of pre-EGA graphics boards. I really really wanted an IBM 5150 (a real peecee, not that *Taiwanese junk*, which in reality was just as good), with a Sigma 400 video card, and a Princeton PG-12 (I may have screwed the model designation up). ~2500$ in 1986 dollars. A little too pricey for a 19 year old making 3.40$/hour. So I settled on a Tandy 1000. Kept it for about 2 weeks LOL. The following year I bought a T2K when it went on sale. The rest is history. In fact all of it is history. And now so is this here message... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 From pat at computer-refuge.org Wed Sep 5 17:38:43 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 18:38:43 -0400 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: <46DF2976.CD9A754A@cs.ubc.ca> References: <46DEBA08.16574.1AF186A7@cclist.sydex.com> <46DF2976.CD9A754A@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <200709051838.43175.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Wednesday 05 September 2007, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Whoops, yes, I should have said 1-of-10 decoder - was just trying to > distinguish that it's logically quite different than a 7-seg decoder. > I think I actually did see a 7441 used for something other than > driving a nixie once, as you suggest, but I can't remember what it > was in. Maybe a bar (dot) graph? Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Sep 5 17:46:52 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 23:46:52 +0100 Subject: D-shell sizes In-Reply-To: References: <200709051854.l85IsYkn018065@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <46DF31DC.5030006@yahoo.co.uk> Mark Tapley wrote: > > > I am *so* sorry - I left off the correct letter (thought it was "B", > just wasn't sure) in hopes of *avoiding* kicking off the annual D-shell > connector nomenclature thread. Place just wouldn't be the same without it! We all have to start that thread sooner or later too; it's something akin to a classiccmp rite of passage I think :-) > Have we dug up the horse bones, beat them into flour, baked the flour > into bread, and punched it down enough now? Are those DE- horse bones or DB- ? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 17:55:44 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 17:55:44 -0500 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: <46DF2976.CD9A754A@cs.ubc.ca> References: <46DF14E9.5E644BCB@cs.ubc.ca> <46DEBA08.16574.1AF186A7@cclist.sydex.com> <46DF2976.CD9A754A@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On 9/5/07, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Whoops, yes, I should have said 1-of-10 decoder - was just trying to distinguish > that it's logically quite different than a 7-seg decoder. > I think I actually did see a 7441 used for something other than driving a nixie > once, as you suggest, but I can't remember what it was in. I _think_ I remember seeing a 7441 being used as a solenoid driver in "The TTL Cookbook" or something of that vintage. -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 5 17:18:58 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 23:18:58 +0100 (BST) Subject: D-shell sizes [was Re: Slightly rare Mac 512k with D(?)-25 In-Reply-To: <200709051604.MAA10529@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> from "der Mouse" at Sep 5, 7 11:47:30 am Message-ID: > The 25-pin size - the one used for the MAC SCSI you refer to, the one > called for by the mechanical portion of the RS-232 spec, the one used > for peecee parallel ports - is DB. > > Using pin count for that same pin spacing, the table is DA=15, DB=25, > DC=39 (I think), DD=50 (three rows), DE=9. The DE shell is also used DC37, actually > in a 15-pin variant ("VGA"), but the pins are spaced substantially > closer than in the DE-9. DA is probably best known for peecee joystick In the high-density range, the standard sizes seem to be (in increasing shell size) : DE15 DA26 DB44 DC62 DD78 > connectors, but it also got used for AUI Ethernet back in the 10base5 > days, before even 10base2, much less 10baseT. DC doesn't get used much > in my experience; I think I have a few SBus cards that use it for the The common uses (on various machines) are : DE9 : MDA, CGA monitors, PC/AT serial ports, some DEC printer (serial) ports, Commodore/Atari Joysticks DA15 : PC joystick, BBC micro analogue port (joystick :-)), AUI ethernet DB25 : Real RS232 ports, PC parallel ports, Mac SCSI port, IEC625 interface (IEEE-488 on a DB25 connector!) DC37 : PC external floppy interface. Some QIC tape interfaces. Canon 'VDO' direct laser printer engine interface. DD50 : Sun (and PERQ 3A) SCSI interface DE15 : PC VGA (and higher) video DA26 : Not seen it DB44 : Not seen that either DC62 : PC expansion unit DD78 : Some HP multple seiral ports Of course all these connectors were used for many other things besides (my ACW has a DB25 keyboard socket, a DB25 user port and a DC37 '1MHz bus'. I've wired all my HP 8-bit parallel interfaces for the 98x0 and 9815 to DC37 sockets, and so on). and they're used on things other than computers. [...] > I don't know why they are out of order. I speculate that someone > designed DA through DD, never expecting D-shell to get used for > anything under 15 pins, then had to tack on the 9-pin size later. > (Arguably they should have called it D@, but that would probably have > been too geeky. :) I bleieve that's correct. Also '@' is 'letter 0' only in ascii :-) > > There exist D-shell connectors of other sizes, like the NeXT "black" > hardware video connector (which held something like 19 pins). I don't > know whether they have names in the DA..DE series; I suspect they have > no standard names because they're not standard sizes. I've heard them called the 'DF19' and 'DG23' (Amiga video connector?) but I don't know how official that is. Probsbly not at all! I've heard that HP used 3 pin and 5 pin D-shaped seiral connectors on some of their older machines. Were these DE-size shells or something else? -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 5 17:23:06 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 23:23:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: D-shell sizes [was Re: Slightly rare Mac 512k with In-Reply-To: <46DEE328.6080804@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Sep 5, 7 06:11:04 pm Message-ID: > Plus of course there are some weird designs out there in D-shells with a > variety of pin sizes - e.g. 13W3 connectors for Sun/SGI video, and ISTR HP > using something similar but with a smaller (DA?) shell size. (Also, weren't DEC 9and maybe HP) put 3 coax connectors in a DA-size shell (RGB video, sync-on-green). > some Apollo token ring connectors something like a 5W2 on an DE-sized shell?) I thought that was a DA shell too, but I've not seen one for years. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 5 17:27:27 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 23:27:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: <46DEEEC1.5090206@philpem.me.uk> from "Philip Pemberton" at Sep 5, 7 07:00:33 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > >> PS. Iv'e got the 7400 pinout downloaded already. :) > > > > So have I. Into my brain. I think I'll rememebr that one until my dying day. > > If you can get hold of one, the Texas Instruments Digital Logic Pocket Data > Book (doc code SCYD013A) is a great little desktop reference. It's about A5 > size and has pinouts and logic diagrams for just about all of TI's 4000- and > 74-series logic chips. I'll stick to my 'full' TI TTL databooks. I have an old hard-backed one, covering things like 74Hxxx numbers (it's late enough to contain 74LS, but nothing after that), and the full 3-volume set. Volume 1 is plain, S and LS, Volume 2 is AS and ALS, Volume 3 is programmable stuff (PROMs, PALs). I forget which book contains RAMs ;-) > > They used to give them out free-for-the-asking, but I'm not sure if they still > do. If I wanted another copy, I'd probably try calling the local TI sales > office and asking nicely. > > Of course, when I got mine, they also sent me a box full of other databooks as > well - basically the whole logic databook series and most of the analog > product guides and databooks. The box was about 4ft long by 2ft wide and 1.5ft > tall... You were lucky. I had to _pay_ for all my databooks.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 5 17:30:49 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 23:30:49 +0100 (BST) Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <46DE8CB1.16005.1A406BB6@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 5, 7 11:02:09 am Message-ID: > I wonder if there were any 80286 coprocessor plug-in boards for the > XT before the AT? I don't know when thay came out (relative to the AT), but 80286 add-on boards for the XT exist(ed). There's one in my junk box. It's a half-length ISA card containing an 80286, 80287 and glue logic, with a ribbon cable ending in a 40 pin DIL plug that presumanly goes in the 8088 socket on the PC/XT motherboard. I also have an 8086 board for the XT. Of course the benefit of that processor over the 8088 was the 16 bit databus, which sould be lost if the thing had to do 8 bit accesses to memory. So there's full 640K of RAM on this board too. Of course it does use 8 bit transfers to access ROMs and peripherals. This is a full-length card, again with a cable and DIL plug to go in the 8088 socket. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 5 17:58:56 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 23:58:56 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: <46DEA55E.10909.1AA0CE69@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 5, 7 12:47:26 pm Message-ID: > It seems to me that there was one oddball case of a 74L series chip > having a different pinout that the 74 "vanilla" flavor. Anyone > remember? There are many .A quick flip through my old TTL book shows : 74H01 (pinout as 7400!) as against 7401 ('gates turned round') 7451/74H51/74S51 as against 74L51/74LS51 (the latter has one more input on each of the NANDs in one of the AOIs) 7454 as agains 74H54 (the latter has one extra input on one of the ANDs) 74H55 as against 74L55/74LS55 (the former has an 'expander' input) 74H71 (AND-D-OR gated JK master/slave flipflop with preset) as against 74L71 (AND gated R-S master-slave flipflop with preset and clear). And the pinouts are totally different too! 7493 as against 74L93 (even the power pins move!) 7495/74LS95 as against 74L95 (the former has corner power pins, the latter middle power pins.) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 5 17:34:10 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 23:34:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: AT&T PC6300 available, in Fort Worth, TX, USA In-Reply-To: <249964.966.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Sep 5, 7 11:17:46 am Message-ID: > > There were other 8086-based PeeCee-type machines. [...] > Hewlett-Packard HP-110 Yes, amazingly the HP MS-DOS laptops (HP110 and 110+ (Portable Plus) were 8086 machines, the desktop MS-DOS HP's of the time (HP150, HP150-II) were 8088s. Go figure. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 5 17:36:25 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 23:36:25 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: <46DE90B7.4807.1A50238B@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 5, 7 11:19:19 am Message-ID: > > Someone wrote: > > PS. Iv'e got the 7400 pinout downloaded already. :) > > Just remember that the 7401 is not an OC version of the 7400. :) No, the O/C version of the 7400 is the 7403. > I've got to keep going back to the databook for the chips with > "middle" supply pins, like the 7475. Ne too, And I can never remember the pinouts of the more obscure JK flip-flops, or some the lower-numbered counters with the outputs in a crazy order. The other thing to watch for (if you're repairing old hardware...) is that there are some (IIRC) 74Hxxx chips where the pinout is totally differeint for the 'plain' or LS version. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 5 17:41:27 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 23:41:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: <46DEFA1B.8070901@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Sep 5, 7 12:48:59 pm Message-ID: > > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Someone wrote: > > > > PS. Iv'e got the 7400 pinout downloaded already. :) > > > > Just remember that the 7401 is not an OC version of the 7400. :) > > I've got to keep going back to the databook for the chips with > > "middle" supply pins, like the 7475. > > I don't use 4 bit latches. No problem for me :) > Other than the 4 bit adder 7486 I can't think of any common Don;'t you mean 7483 here? The 7486 is a quad XOR gate, pinout similar to the 8400, and with corner supply pins. The 74283 is a 4-bit adder with a more sane pinout (and corner supply pins). > chips with middle supply pins. The ones I come acorss most often are the 7490, 7492, 7493 counters. -tony From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 5 18:18:43 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 16:18:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <479685.71795.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > I also have an 8086 board for the XT. Of course the > benefit of that > processor over the 8088 was the 16 bit databus, > which sould be lost if > the thing had to do 8 bit accesses to memory. So > there's full 640K of > RAM on this board too. Of course it does use 8 bit > transfers to access > ROMs and peripherals. This is a full-length card, > again with a cable and > DIL plug to go in the 8088 socket. Is it's intended to supplant or supplement the 8088? Are you sure it just isn't a mpu board for some unit w/a passive backplane? I don't mean to insult your intelligence, just that it's a possibility. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Sep 5 18:11:23 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 00:11:23 +0100 Subject: British Computers In-Reply-To: <20070905124610.S38778@plum.flirble.org> References: <01MKX5E7KYWWJTE2DK@vms.eurokom.ie> <20070905110136.GA28475@bytemark.barnyard.co.uk> <20070905124610.S38778@plum.flirble.org> Message-ID: <46DF379B.4070005@yahoo.co.uk> Andrew Back wrote: > In terms of British minis there were at British Gas in Leeds (England) > in the 80s a system made by Cossor Electronics (also made scopes and > valve radios etc) that was based around a TMS9900, finished in a very > fetching orange with flicky-switches operator panel. It had Pertec disk > drives each with a separate 19" 2U 'formatter' unit (controller?), > remote graphics heads that had some kind of controller (kb in, and RGB > out to big 20 inch or so CCTV-style monitors) hooked-up to the CPU by > extended serial links. That's interesting; we were given a few 19" 3U instrument cases the other week with video out (PC-style VGA), keyboard in (PC-AT type connector, but no guarantee that's what they actually require), and a serial port on them. No other I/O, and no idea what they were originally used for. Very professionally-built circuitry inside. I'll have to dig up some model details; I can't remember who they were made by now. Seems a bit weird if someone went to that much trouble to re-implement a dumb serial terminal, so it may be they do a similar job to what your gadgets did. > Never seen or heard of a Cossor computer since Sounds like a pretty interesting crate. Sadly lots of manufacturers seemed to sideline into computing in the 70s and 80s and have now all but forgotten their computing past (if the company still exists at all) :-( > This has also just reminded me of another very cool device we had at BG. > A thing called a 'Radac' Very interesting... I'll have to keep an eye out for one; I've never heard of anyone putting the data surfaces on the inside before. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 5 18:20:56 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 16:20:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070905161931.Y96315@shell.lmi.net> > > I wonder if there were any 80286 coprocessor plug-in boards for the > > XT before the AT? On Wed, 5 Sep 2007, Tony Duell wrote: > half-length ISA card containing an 80286, 80287 and glue logic, with a > ribbon cable ending in a 40 pin DIL plug that presumanly goes in the 8088 > socket on the PC/XT motherboard. > > I also have an 8086 board for the XT. Of course the benefit of that ISA: 80386 "Elevator"? Z80 From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Sep 5 18:22:34 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 16:22:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <479685.71795.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> References: <479685.71795.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070905162151.S96315@shell.lmi.net> On Wed, 5 Sep 2007, Chris M wrote: > Is it's intended to supplant or supplement the 8088? > Are you sure it just isn't a mpu board for some unit > w/a passive backplane? I don't mean to insult your > intelligence, just that it's a possibility. I've had ones that were explicitly to replace (supplant?) the 8088 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Sep 5 18:31:11 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 18:31:11 -0500 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: References: <46DEFA1B.8070901@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 9/5/07, Tony Duell wrote: > Don;'t you mean 7483 here? ... > > The 74283 is a 4-bit adder with a more sane pinout (and corner supply pins). Ah... good to know. The PDP-8/L and -8/i have a 7483 on each M220 card, but I remember seeing either a 74283 or, if it exists, a 74183 in the design for that PDP-8/i work-alike I mentioned here a few weeks ago. The difference, I would guess, is probably that the designer of the clone didn't want to fiddle with an older, odd chip. I should probably find a source of a handful of 7483s since I have a small stack of dead M220s. I don't know what's wrong with them yet (probably dead 7474s if the rest of the machine is any indication), but I'd hate to trace it to the adder and have no spares on hand. I did not realize it was a strange-power-pin part. I would have figured it out eventually, but it's best to be forwarned. -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Sep 5 18:32:18 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 00:32:18 +0100 (BST) Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <479685.71795.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> from "Chris M" at Sep 5, 7 04:18:43 pm Message-ID: > > I also have an 8086 board for the XT. Of course the > > benefit of that > > processor over the 8088 was the 16 bit databus, > > which sould be lost if > > the thing had to do 8 bit accesses to memory. So > > there's full 640K of > > RAM on this board too. Of course it does use 8 bit > > transfers to access > > ROMs and peripherals. This is a full-length card, > > again with a cable and > > DIL plug to go in the 8088 socket. > > Is it's intended to supplant or supplement the 8088? > Are you sure it just isn't a mpu board for some unit > w/a passive backplane? I don't mean to insult your > intelligence, just that it's a possibility. I think the name etched into the copper implied it was an add-on for the PC/XT, and given the fact that it has this ribbon cable ending in the 40 pin DIL header plug, I assume it replaces the 8088 (and therefore doesn't go in a passive backplane). -tony From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 5 18:33:47 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 16:33:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <20070905162151.S96315@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <667241.97419.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> --- Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 5 Sep 2007, Chris M wrote: > > Is it's intended to supplant or supplement the > 8088? > > Are you sure it just isn't a mpu board for some > unit > > w/a passive backplane? I don't mean to insult your > > intelligence, just that it's a possibility. > > I've had ones that were explicitly to replace > (supplant?) the 8088 We could be getting our lines crossed here. Typically these things are called "coprocessors". I defy that designation. Granted there could be some offloading of instructions (sort of kind of like what happens w/an onboard 8087), but regardless, the objective is to replace the 8088. I had been wondering if there were boards for a pc that supplemented the operation of the onboard mpu by providing another processor altoghether, and in no way replacing the old 8088, thereby in effect giving you 2 pc's in one. Of course there were z80 boards, 68k? boards that accomplished this. Referring to an IBM PGA card is cheating :). It's function was not to provide a second environment. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Wed Sep 5 18:37:52 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 16:37:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <933650.24487.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> --- Tony Duell wrote: > I think the name etched into the copper implied it > was an add-on for the > PC/XT, and given the fact that it has this ribbon > cable ending in the 40 > pin DIL header plug, I assume it replaces the 8088 > (and therefore doesn't > go in a passive backplane). Uh, yes I actually did read that, but evidently lost the knowledge rather quickly. Nuff said. Funny though that someone would go to all the trouble, and expense, to simply add an 8086 though. I guess it could have been a fast 8086. But a board like that probably wasn't cheap. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Luggage? GPS? Comic books? Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz From cclist at sydex.com Wed Sep 5 19:00:06 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 17:00:06 -0700 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <667241.97419.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20070905162151.S96315@shell.lmi.net>, <667241.97419.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46DEE096.10771.1B882019@cclist.sydex.com> On 5 Sep 2007 at 16:33, Chris M wrote: >> We could be getting our lines crossed here. Typically > these things are called "coprocessors". I defy that > designation. Granted there could be some offloading of > instructions (sort of kind of like what happens w/an > onboard 8087), but regardless, the objective is to > replace the 8088. I had been wondering if there were > boards for a pc that supplemented the operation of the > onboard mpu by providing another processor > altoghether, and in no way replacing the old 8088, > thereby in effect giving you 2 pc's in one. Of course > there were z80 boards, 68k? boards that accomplished > this. The Intel Inboard 286 or 386 PC/XT? IIRC, the 8088 booted, then turned over the bus to the 286 or 386. I don't know if there were any applications that switched between the two, but I don't doubt that one could devise an application such that one or the other would be running. I do recall the "This will not run on an Inboard 286!" notices, however. Cheers, Chuck From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Wed Sep 5 18:55:24 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 00:55:24 +0100 Subject: Belgian computers? In-Reply-To: <1295698f86f39db8f66e1b7c6a4c6ac3@mac.com> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA6A@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <1295698f86f39db8f66e1b7c6a4c6ac3@mac.com> Message-ID: <46DF41EC.4080001@yahoo.co.uk> Roger Pugh wrote: > > On 3 Sep 2007, at 06:33, Rod Smallwood wrote: > >> Not as far as I know, but BARCO are a big Belgian maker of TV's and >> monitors. >> They may have been involved. >> >> Rod >> > > BARCO were big with Air traffic control systems i think. I remember NATS at West Drayton in the UK were using Barco displays when I visited them a couple of years ago. The CRT screens must have been something like a 28" diagonal and the resolution was very high, several thousand pixels in each axis. Engineering on them looked to be a very high standard, too. One of those few times I've seen a piece of modern technology that I've actually wanted to own :-) From bear at typewritten.org Wed Sep 5 20:28:29 2007 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 18:28:29 -0700 Subject: D-shell sizes [was Re: Slightly rare Mac 512k with D(?)-25 connector] In-Reply-To: <46DE7977.16908.19F54DC1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200709050342.l853gaMx098454@dewey.classiccmp.org>, , <200709051604.MAA10529@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <46DE7977.16908.19F54DC1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sep 5, 2007, at 9:40 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > 37-pin External floppy drive connectors on PC and PS/2. Some SCSI > cards (e.g. the Iomega Bernoulli PC version) also used them. There's > also a 68-pin 3-row "high-density" version used on Overland and Chi > Pertec 9-track adapters. Nit, it has 62 pins. It's a DC62. > There's also a "thicker" 50-pin 3-row (not HD) connector used for > the external connector for some PC-based QIC-02 and QIC-36 > controllers (Wangtek, I think). That's the D-size. The DD50. There are also DD78 and DD100 connectors. > There were also non-standard sizes, such as the 19-pin D connector > used for Atari ST ACSI connections. I've heard them described as DF19 (NeXT monitor, Macintosh floppy) and DG23 (Amiga floppy, Amiga RGB), though this is not part of the standard. Jules mentioned alternate pin designations too. Besides the "W" for coaxial "pins", there are also "high current" pins, physically the same size as the coaxial ones but with a single conductor, and perhaps others besides. Gee, look what I found. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-subminiature ok bear From bear at typewritten.org Wed Sep 5 20:39:49 2007 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 18:39:49 -0700 Subject: D-shell sizes [was Re: Slightly rare Mac 512k with D(?)-25 connector] In-Reply-To: <46DEFE33.3010709@gmail.com> References: <200709050342.l853gaMx098454@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200709051604.MAA10529@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <46DEE328.6080804@yahoo.co.uk> <200709051853.OAA11737@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> <46DEFE33.3010709@gmail.com> Message-ID: <39EC8C85-0E06-4272-B183-30CA9AA131C0@typewritten.org> On Sep 5, 2007, at 12:06 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >>> (Also, weren't some Apollo token ring connectors something like a >>> 5W2 >>> on an DE-sized shell?) >> Could be; I don't know either way, though. > > The only 5w2 I know of is the DC5w2, which is quite a bit bigger > than a DE-shell. I don't know how one would go about cramming five > mini-coax connectors into a DE-shell. ATR is a DA7W2. There are only two coaxial connectors in an nW2. (@; ok bear From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Wed Sep 5 21:55:50 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 22:55:50 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SCSI/IDE laptop adapters: outcome Message-ID: <200709060324.XAA17119@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Back on August 25th, I wrote of a possible group buy of adapters to take a laptop IDE disk and use it in a machine expecting a laptop SCSI disk. One person (you know who you are, and thank you very much) wrote to one of these lists and named a vendor that carried them as of a day or two earlier (the post said something like "I just ordered a few more"); interestingly enough, it was the very vendor who had denied all knowledge of them on the phone to me: MCE Technologies, LLC, mcetech.com, +1 949 458 0800, or, in the NANPA, 1-800-500-0622. (I can't speak to the validity of the 949-458-0800 number; I used the 800-500-0622 number when calling as outlined below.) However, this post also named an MCE Tech part number for them ("sta-idescsi25", and indeed the invoice copy packed with the devices says "STA-IDESCSI25" in the "Item No." column). So I called them again, and, not letting on I'd called before, asked about them by that number. They said they had some in stock, so I ordered two. They arrived today, and as far as I can tell are exactly what I wanted: I have a Toshiba laptop IDE drive of slightly over 4G in my Voyager right now using one of them. I did hear from some people wanting into the group buy. MCE said on the phone that they ship worldwide (they use FedEx, or at least they did for me), and their price of (US)$20 is enough below the $65 I was expecting to pay that I daresay anyone who was willing to join the group buy can just order directly and still come out ahead. (Usual disclaimers apply - I have no relationship with them other than that of customer with supplier, etc.) They did get one thing wrong: they asked whether I'd rather have express or ground shipping, and I'm quite sure I said ground, but they shipped express anyway. The extra cost was a little annoying, but still got me two of them for about what I was expecting to pay for one, so I'm not kicking - but anyone who wants non-express shipping might want to be fairly emphatic about it. (As before, I'm setting a reply-to to a bitbucket; please fix up your to-line if you're replying, to point to the list or person to whom you intend to reply.) /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Sep 5 22:51:37 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 21:51:37 -0600 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46DF7949.7090905@jetnet.ab.ca> Tony Duell wrote: > Don;'t you mean 7483 here? The 7486 is a quad XOR gate, pinout similar to > the 8400, and with corner supply pins. Yes I did. Don't ask why I thinking 86? > The 74283 is a 4-bit adder with a more sane pinout (and corner supply pins). And faster too I think. I was looking at some old TTL databooks (bitsavers) and noticed it was two two bit adders glued into the same package. That was lots of transistors back then. > > The ones I come acorss most often are the 7490, 7492, 7493 counters. I don't see them often, a TTL digital clock (with nixes) comes to mind using them that may have been some early 70's magazine. > -tony > Odd how the old stuff is coming back for projects. You don't see I built a PeeCee project from scratch using ... , just "I added blinking lights to my case" as todays project. Ben alias woodelf. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Sep 5 23:02:24 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 22:02:24 -0600 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: References: <46DEFA1B.8070901@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <46DF7BD0.1060902@jetnet.ab.ca> Ethan Dicks wrote: > Ah... good to know. The PDP-8/L and -8/i have a 7483 on each M220 > card, but I remember seeing either a 74283 or, if it exists, a 74183 > in the design for that PDP-8/i work-alike I mentioned here a few weeks > ago. The difference, I would guess, is probably that the designer of > the clone didn't want to fiddle with an older, odd chip. Unicorn electronics still have 74XX listed but many of the chips are (Discontinued -- limited to stock on hand). Oddly the 7483 does not state that. They also may have 7482's -- dual adder, as I think they where used the original PDP-11. > I should probably find a source of a handful of 7483s since I have a > small stack of dead M220s. I don't know what's wrong with them yet > (probably dead 7474s if the rest of the machine is any indication), > but I'd hate to trace it to the adder and have no spares on hand. Where do most people get their spares from? > I did not realize it was a strange-power-pin part. I would have > figured it out eventually, but it's best to be forwarned. > -ethan Ben alias woodelf From trixter at oldskool.org Wed Sep 5 23:23:06 2007 From: trixter at oldskool.org (Jim Leonard) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 23:23:06 -0500 Subject: AT&T PC6300 available, in Fort Worth, TX, USA In-Reply-To: <25D904FA-86DB-44CA-914D-AC9DE93DC990@neurotica.com> References: <820084.84058.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <25D904FA-86DB-44CA-914D-AC9DE93DC990@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <46DF80AA.7050904@oldskool.org> Dave McGuire wrote: > 8086 at 8MHz in fact. 7.16MHz, actually. (Nice even division of the base clock) >> Uses a passive-backplane motherboard. > > It does use a passive backplane for the ISA slots, but the logic board > itself isn't a card in that backplane. The logic board is on the bottom > of the machine (chips facing down, if memory serves) and that contains > nearly all of the system logic. Yes, and unfortunately the floppy interface was down there too, so you had to route a cable through Hoboken and back just to hook up the floppy drives. The machine was a rebranded Olivetti M24. And the first x86 machine I ever personally owned, so of course I know it inside and out. > I spent quite a bit of time working on those machines. They are > really, really nice. The monitors are crisp and sharp, the keyboards > are *fantastic*, and the chassis are built like tanks. Not sure I agree about the keyboard and chassis, but the monitors were to die for. Incredibly crisp. -- Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/ Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/ Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/ A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/ From geoffr at zipcon.net Wed Sep 5 23:38:58 2007 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoff Reed) Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 21:38:58 -0700 Subject: 286 accelerator cards - Was : Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <20070905130438.A86688@shell.lmi.net> References: <1189001716.24579.8.camel@nibbler.dlib.indiana.edu> <20070905130438.A86688@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <209f01c7f03f$d717de20$6a01a8c0@liberator> There was also one for the Dec-Rainbow, it went into the 8086 socket, the Turbow 286. From rtellason at verizon.net Wed Sep 5 23:57:21 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 00:57:21 -0400 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: <61A9E3F8-9993-44B0-AF78-1C0E11D25230@neurotica.com> References: <20070904095010.f73591f2.hugh@blemings.org> <200709050056.28319.rtellason@verizon.net> <61A9E3F8-9993-44B0-AF78-1C0E11D25230@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <200709060057.21792.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 05 September 2007 07:55, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Sep 5, 2007, at 12:56 AM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > Sure. I have a bunch of PALs around, mostly pulls from a bunch of > > XT-class machines that Zenith made, and it's debatable whether there will > > ever be a use for them. GALs, on the other hand, sound like they'be be > > useful for all sorts of things. I should probably seek out some data on > > these parts, or even a databook, somewhere. Got any pointers to specific > > numbers? > > Datasheets for these parts aren't difficult to come by. Despite > all the hype about them having been replaced by FPGAs and CPLDs, they > are still a current product line from a few different manufacturers > (Cypress and Atmel come to mind) and are available from most of the > major distributors. > > The most popular ones seem to be the 16V8 and 22V10 (GAL16V8 and > GAL22V10). I just need some point at which to get started. I'll have a look around, then, with those numbers in mind... > It's worth noting that some CPLD families are more-or-less direct > implementations of common PAL architectures. A Xilinx XC9536 CPLD, > for example, is very similar to two of what might have been called > PAL36V18. This comes in very handy if you're experienced with PAL > design and want to move into higher-density devices. I've little experience with the current crop of programmable hardware, it's just too "out there" for most of what I'd be into doing... > The PALs that you have a pulls are likely useless because they're > one-time programmable. GALs and PALCE devices are electrically- > eraseable, and possibly some others, but not straight PALs. Sure. Unless I run into somebody who for some reason wants to repair one of those machines, or similar. But I'll use 'em as push pins before I just toss 'em out. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Sep 6 00:13:20 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 01:13:20 -0400 Subject: D-shell sizes [was Re: Slightly rare Mac 512k with D(?) -25 connector] In-Reply-To: <200709051604.MAA10529@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <200709050342.l853gaMx098454@dewey.classiccmp.org> <200709051604.MAA10529@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <200709060113.20812.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 05 September 2007 11:47, der Mouse wrote: > > [...] a 25-pin D connector reminscent of the Mac "SCSI" connectors on > > Mac Plus and other machines. [...] > > > > Forgotten what the correct designation for those D-connectors is, and > > wanted to get this out fast in case anyone wants it. > > The 25-pin size - the one used for the MAC SCSI you refer to, the one > called for by the mechanical portion of the RS-232 spec, the one used > for peecee parallel ports - is DB. > > Using pin count for that same pin spacing, the table is DA=15, DB=25, > DC=39 (I think), I'm thinking 37... > DD=50 (three rows), DE=9. The DE shell is also used > in a 15-pin variant ("VGA"), but the pins are spaced substantially > closer than in the DE-9. DA is probably best known for peecee joystick > connectors, but it also got used for AUI Ethernet back in the 10base5 > days, before even 10base2, much less 10baseT. DC doesn't get used much > in my experience; I think I have a few SBus cards that use it for the > fat end of their octopus cables. Didn't the original peecee's floppy adapter card have one of those on the metal bracket to connect external floppy drives with? I had an external IBM floppy drive a while back, pulled the drive out of the box to use for something, and now I have this box with a little bitty switching power supply in it and a short cable with one of those connectors on the end of it... > DD was used by Sun for SCSI back in the Sun-2 and Sun-3 era, and also got > used for IPI disks. DE is probably best known for peecee serial ports > and "VGA" video (a lot of people don't realize the shell size is the same > for those two), but I've seen it used for other things, such as Sun-3 > monochrome video. I'm sure each size has plenty of other uses I know nothing > about, too. Joystick ports on lots and lots of things, the c64, vic-20, Yamaha CX5, Atari 2600 (?) game consoles, etc. > I don't know why they are out of order. I speculate that someone > designed DA through DD, never expecting D-shell to get used for > anything under 15 pins, then had to tack on the 9-pin size later. > (Arguably they should have called it D@, but that would probably have > been too geeky. :) :-) > There exist D-shell connectors of other sizes, like the NeXT "black" > hardware video connector (which held something like 19 pins). I don't > know whether they have names in the DA..DE series; I suspect they have > no standard names because they're not standard sizes. Didn't the Atari ST machines use something odd of the sort? I'm thinking it had 23 pins but I've never actually seen one of those or worked with one. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Sep 6 00:21:19 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 01:21:19 -0400 Subject: GALs and PALs (was Re: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia)) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200709060121.20135.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 05 September 2007 12:59, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 9/4/07, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > On Tuesday 04 September 2007 23:41, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > Hope that illuminates more than obscures, > > > > Sure. I have a bunch of PALs around, mostly pulls from a bunch of > > XT-class machines that Zenith made, and it's debatable whether there > > will ever be a use for them. > > Indeed. You might check for "PALCE" - those are CMOS PALs that _can_ > be reprogrammed. Bipolar PALs by MMI and other vendors are strictly > OTP. > > You _could_ poke around the PAL with a signal generator and a logic > analyzer/logic probe/VOM/O-scope and divine the internal programming, > but, honestly, blown PALs are rarely useful out of their original > context. The only use _I_ have ever had for them is a pattern to be > able to make modifications to an existing device - I've started with > PALs for, say, an Amiga 3000, then burned a faster GAL to get rid of > video jitter - I was partially successful. I've never tried to take a > PAL out of a circuit and re-use it in a new circuit. I really had little expectation of having any use for them, though I do somewhere have manuals for that stuff -- used to be a ZDS service center back when -- and I could probably at least see what they are. I'm guessing mostly address decoding glue or similar. > > GALs, on the other hand, sound like they'be be useful for > > all sorts of things. > > Indeed they are. Bob Armstrong is a heavy user of GALs for the Spare > Time Gizmos line of hobby products. In the case of the Elf 2000, for > example, you can change the logic equations yourself (he provides the > source) and change the memory and/or I/O map - all of the select logic > goes through a GAL, so the memory map is mutable. > > If you are designing your own circuits, a 18 or 24-pin GAL can replace > several square inches of TTL, with the benefit of being able to make > changes later that don't involve cutting traces and adding blue wires. > You lose the ability to poke around in the middle of select circuits, > and to make substantial changes, but it all depends on what your goals > for the project are if that's a worthwhile tradeoff or not. You do > have to start with a GAL programmer, though. Not all hobbyists have > them, so if you make a product to sell, as Bob does, you should > consider selling programmed parts for those that can't burn their own. Hm, how complicated would one of those programmers be? Or expensive? This may not be something I'd want to pursue after all... :-) > > I should probably seek out some data on these parts, > > or even a databook, somewhere. Got any pointers to specific numbers? > > The two most common parts I've worked with are the 18-pin Lattice GAL > 16V8 and the 24-pin Lattice GAL 22V10. There's also a 22-pin GAL > 20V8, and I do have a few pull, but I've never run into a hobby > project that uses them. I would expect to pay $1.25 for small > quantities of 16V8s and up to $3.50 for small quantities of 22V10s. > Bargains can be had, but to be honest, when I see 22V10s for under > $2.00 each, I tend to buy a few. They aren't as easy to find cheaply > as 16V8s. One type of occasional bargain are surplussed > already-programmed parts. Just throw them in your programmer, erase > them, then you are ready to go with only a couple of burn cycles > ticked off their lifetime. Sounds good. At least I can go for a better understanding of the parts. > AMD also makes (made?) the PALCE line of PLDs. They are pin > compatible with GALs, and should program in the same programmer as a > GAL. I do not know if there are any substantial technical advantages > of PALCEs over GALs or not. This is the first I can recall ever hearing of them. > In general, for non-modern circuits, a GAL is going to be fast > compared to layer after layer of TTL. For example, 15ns GALs are not > particularly fast or expensive. 15ns would be a problem for a > multi-gate address select circuit for, say, a 6502. Fortunately, with > 1MHz and 8Mhz designs and such, speed really isn't a factor, but it's > nice to know how much slack you have in your design. > > You can start here for technical details... > > http://www.latticesemi.com/products/cpldspld/gal.cfm Thanks for the link, I'll have a look... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Sep 6 00:31:10 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 01:31:10 -0400 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <301721.45062.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> References: <301721.45062.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200709060131.10531.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 05 September 2007 14:10, Chris M wrote: > Here's a neato question: You mentioned coprocessor > boards, and in fact some kinda sorta functioned that > way (in some sense - stuff got offloaded to the mpu on > the board I guess). But what were some early ancillary > processor boards for the pc/at/?. That is, where you > plugged a whole 'nother puter into your main puter, > and got to run separate apps off of that? Hmmmmm I'm remembering a couple of those in Byte, which I stopped reading sometime in the eighties. A 32032? (I never could keep the numbers of that family straight). A Z8000 for sure. Maybe a 68K of some sort. It's all very fuzzy... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From trag at io.com Thu Sep 6 00:41:42 2007 From: trag at io.com (Jeff Walther) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 00:41:42 -0500 Subject: D-shell sizes [was Re: Slightly rare Mac 512k with In-Reply-To: <200709052201.l85M15ps024416@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200709052201.l85M15ps024416@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: >Date: Wed, 5 Sep 2007 15:55:04 -0500 >From: Mark Tapley >Subject: Re: D-shell sizes >To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >Message-ID: >Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" > > > >I am *so* sorry - I left off the correct letter (thought it was "B", >just wasn't sure) in hopes of *avoiding* kicking off the annual >D-shell connector nomenclature thread. > >Have we dug up the horse bones, beat them into flour, baked the flour >into bread, and punched it down enough now? > >Guess not. I'll add to the mess: Going back to your earlier topic, so I really should nest another "Was:" up there. :-) Jim's old Mac had the same kind of SCSI connector. You probably never looked closely at it at an early Geekathon. Or maybe he only brought it to the first one and brought the Outbound the next few years. Anyway, the upgrades for the 128K and 512K[E] models which provided a SCSI port, typically routed the ribbon cable around the edge of the battery compartment. A few ran the cable over the floppy connector. The more elegant ones actually provided a replacement battery compartment cover which had the DB25 connector (awww, back to the topic) mounted in the plastic cover. One removed the old battery compartment cover, routed the SCSI ribbon cable out of the case around the edge of the battery compartment and secured the new cover over the battery compartment, which gave one a DB25 connector mounted over the battery compartment. There were several SCSI upgrades for those old machines. The SCSI-only upgrades usually plugged into the ROM sockets, provided sockets on top of the upgrade daughter board for the two ROM chips and then bore a 53C80 and ribbon header. There might have been a bit more logic, but not much. IIRC, they did require that the host machine be upgraded to the later 512KE or Plus ROMs because the original 128K and 512K ROMs did not contain a SCSI port driver. Other upgrades provided additional memory as well and those typically required tapping all the CPU lines, so they either used a Killy Clip (clear plastic receptacle with embedded pins which fits snuggly over the 68000 DIP) which provided a double row of pins above the clip in the standard 64 pin DIP spacing, or they relied on headers soldered directly to the 68000 pins. My favorite was the NewLife brand upgrades because they provided eight SIMM sockets on the daughter board. If one had a 512KE, one could install the NewLife upgrade and add a SCSI port and eight SIMM sockets. Then two 1MB SIMMs and six 256KB SIMMs later, one had a 4MB (maximum) RAM equipped Mac Plus equivalent, which was supposedly somewhat faster for reasons I never really understood. The CPU ran at the same speed, but the Newlife guys claimed some part of their interface to the peripheral logic or maybe to the RAM was faster. The advantage of that memory arrangement was that back at that time (early 90s) 1 MB SIMMs were still close to $100 each, but 256KB SIMMs cost between free and $5, or $10 if one totally failed one's merchant skill. Jeff Walther From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Sep 6 00:48:05 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 01:48:05 -0400 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: <46DE90B7.4807.1A50238B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46DEEEC1.5090206@philpem.me.uk> <46DE90B7.4807.1A50238B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200709060148.06032.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 05 September 2007 14:19, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Someone wrote: > > PS. Iv'e got the 7400 pinout downloaded already. :) > > Just remember that the 7401 is not an OC version of the 7400. :) That would be the 7403, no? I never could understand why they needed two kinds of those... > I've got to keep going back to the databook for the chips with > "middle" supply pins, like the 7475. And 7490? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Sep 6 00:49:53 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 01:49:53 -0400 Subject: AT&T PC6300 available, in Fort Worth, TX, USA In-Reply-To: <46DE9383.26813.1A5B0E08@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46DE8E7B.27008.1A476964@cclist.sydex.com> <249964.966.qm@web61025.mail.yahoo.com> <46DE9383.26813.1A5B0E08@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200709060149.53462.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 05 September 2007 14:31, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 5 Sep 2007 at 11:17, Chris M wrote: > > NEC APC, APC III off the top of my head. There's > > others: > > I meant systems that would load and run PC-DOS right out of the box, > i.e. "PC compatible" systems. The Grid would fall under that > heading, but not many of the others--and certainly not the NEC APC. > > The 8086 was attractive for the Grid because it came in a low-power > CMOS version--the 80c88 came along a bit later. I'm vaguely remembering an Epson machine -- Equity III? Something like that, I found out it had an 8086 in there when I went to stick a v20 in it, one client had a bunch of machines and had me do that to a number of them for him... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Sep 6 01:02:22 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 02:02:22 -0400 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: <46DEA55E.10909.1AA0CE69@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46DEFA1B.8070901@jetnet.ab.ca> <46DEA55E.10909.1AA0CE69@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200709060202.22967.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 05 September 2007 15:47, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 5 Sep 2007 at 12:48, woodelf wrote: > > I don't use 4 bit latches. No problem for me :) > > Other than the 4 bit adder 7486 I can't think of any common > > chips with middle supply pins. > > If your designs are old enough, there are a bunch. 7441 = BCD to 7- > segment gas tube driver. 7492, 7493 = 4 bit counter, 7473 = dual JK > FF, 7476 = dual JK FF and almost all of the other "non-7400" TTL > stuff, such as the MC400, 500, 2000, etc. series. > > It seems to me that there was one oddball case of a 74L series chip > having a different pinout that the 74 "vanilla" flavor. Anyone > remember? Yes, though I'm not sure of the number. '95? Something like that... I do have an old TI databook around someplace but it's currently buried in some box somewhere and I have *no* idea which box at present. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 6 01:14:31 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 23:14:31 -0700 Subject: D-shell sizes [was Re: Slightly rare Mac 512k with D(?) -25 connector] In-Reply-To: <200709060113.20812.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200709050342.l853gaMx098454@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <200709051604.MAA10529@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA>, <200709060113.20812.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <46DF3857.12798.1CDEE823@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Sep 2007 at 1:13, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Didn't the Atari ST machines use something odd of the sort? I'm thinking it > had 23 pins but I've never actually seen one of those or worked with one. 19 actually. I've still got a couple of the male versions (as well as a hood or two). ACSI connector--a somewhat perverted implementation of SCSI. I never understood why Atari had to go out and re-invent it. Anyone have one of the "gutless" Atari laser printers? Did it connect to the ACSI port or to the printer port--or somewhere else? Cheers, Chuck From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Sep 6 01:23:32 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 02:23:32 -0400 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: References: <46DEFA1B.8070901@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200709060223.32236.rtellason@verizon.net> On Wednesday 05 September 2007 19:31, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 9/5/07, Tony Duell wrote: > > Don;'t you mean 7483 here? ... > > > > The 74283 is a 4-bit adder with a more sane pinout (and corner supply > > pins). > > Ah... good to know. The PDP-8/L and -8/i have a 7483 on each M220 > card, but I remember seeing either a 74283 or, if it exists, a 74183 > in the design for that PDP-8/i work-alike I mentioned here a few weeks > ago. The difference, I would guess, is probably that the designer of > the clone didn't want to fiddle with an older, odd chip. > > I should probably find a source of a handful of 7483s since I have a > small stack of dead M220s. I don't know what's wrong with them yet > (probably dead 7474s if the rest of the machine is any indication), > but I'd hate to trace it to the adder and have no spares on hand. Are 7474s problematic for some reason? I seem to remember having a bunch of those, but I think in storage... > I did not realize it was a strange-power-pin part. I would have > figured it out eventually, but it's best to be forwarned. This seems to be as good a place as any to mention that I've got as many of those "generic" numbers as I could find any data on, along with the datasheets, here: http://www.classiccmp.org/rtellason/by-generic-number.html Along with other stuff elsewhere nearby. :-) -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 6 01:28:07 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 05 Sep 2007 23:28:07 -0700 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: <200709060202.22967.rtellason@verizon.net> References: , <46DEA55E.10909.1AA0CE69@cclist.sydex.com>, <200709060202.22967.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <46DF3B87.25650.1CEB5AE8@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Sep 2007 at 2:02, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > I do have an old TI databook around someplace but it's currently buried in > some box somewhere and I have *no* idea which box at present. http://www.datasheets.org.uk/databooks/databook.php?q=32 has a 1978 Ferranti IC book that shows both vanilla and L-series pinouts. One- page-at-a-time-with-an-enter-what-you-see-displayed-prompt. But it's there. The 7486/L86 was what I was thinking of, but Tony added others. Over the years, I've run into otherwise rational people who swore that it just couldn't be--that the only major differences were speed, fanin/out and power. Another gotcha is that some "vanilla" 74xx flip-flops are level- triggered while their LS counterparts are edge-triggered. My first LED clock used 7492s and 7493s. Anyone know if the old TI TTL Databook is online anywhere? I've found some individual TTL datasheets on the TI site, but I'd like to see the whole thing as a downloadable file. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 01:52:19 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 01:52:19 -0500 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: <200709060223.32236.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <46DEFA1B.8070901@jetnet.ab.ca> <200709060223.32236.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: On 9/6/07, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Wednesday 05 September 2007 19:31, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > I should probably find a source of a handful of 7483s since I have a > > small stack of dead M220s. I don't know what's wrong with them yet > > (probably dead 7474s if the rest of the machine is any indication), > > but I'd hate to trace it to the adder and have no spares on hand. > > Are 7474s problematic for some reason? I seem to remember having a bunch of > those, but I think in storage... In the case of my PDP-8/L repairs, I've found the two most common ICs to find dead are the 7474s and 7440s (and there are a lot of them in there). -ethan From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Thu Sep 6 06:11:07 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 12:11:07 +0100 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <200709060131.10531.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <301721.45062.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> <200709060131.10531.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <46DFE04B.8010103@yahoo.co.uk> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Wednesday 05 September 2007 14:10, Chris M wrote: >> Here's a neato question: You mentioned coprocessor >> boards, and in fact some kinda sorta functioned that >> way (in some sense - stuff got offloaded to the mpu on >> the board I guess). But what were some early ancillary >> processor boards for the pc/at/?. That is, where you >> plugged a whole 'nother puter into your main puter, >> and got to run separate apps off of that? Hmmmmm > > I'm remembering a couple of those in Byte, which I stopped reading sometime > in the eighties. A 32032? (I never could keep the numbers of that family > straight). A Z8000 for sure. Maybe a 68K of some sort. It's all very > fuzzy... I've got a couple of ISA boards here with ARM1 processors on; one has Acorn Podule bus hardware fitted so that in theory it can interact with Acorn-specific expansion cards. I'm jumping in here mid-thread though so have lost some of the context - I can't think of a scenario where you plugged an entire machine (implying things like keyboard and video interfaces too) into an AT, but there were certainly all sorts of cards of the "CPU/memory/ROM/ISA interface" around onto which code could be offloaded. I suppose the question is: "when is a coprocessor card not a computer"? :-) cheers Jules -- "What progress. It's almost as good as taping it... on tapes which self destruct in seven days." - Bill Bailey on the BBC's "watch again" service From dave06a at dunfield.com Thu Sep 6 07:48:00 2007 From: dave06a at dunfield.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 07:48:00 -0500 Subject: Next Question Message-ID: <200709061152.l86Bq92f023854@hosting.monisys.ca> Hi Guys, Picked up a Next Slab yesterday ... complete with a couple boxed versions of NextStep. Got it to boot up - It was configured to prompt for a username and password - which of course I didn't have. I managed to restart it into single-user mode, and used "passwd root" to change the root password. I also looked at /etc/passwd and noted that "me" didn't have a password (blank field). I did confirm that after "passwd root" the encrypted string in /etc/passwd was changed. On restarting in multi-user mode, I was still unable to login to the graphical interface - neither "root" with the password I had set, or "me" with no password would work. Restarted in single-user mode - this time I dug around on the net and found information to use "nu -m" to set the password. I reset the root password (again), and also reset the "me" password to a null string. Looking at /etc/passwd I noted that the password field for "me" was no longer blank but now has an encrypted field (isn't no password supposed to be represented by a blank field). Now the system boots up in multiuser mode and automatically logs in as "me" - so I got to play with NextStep which is kindof interesting (mouse is painfully slow however). Ideally, I'd like to have it prompt for login name so that I could login as either root or me - anyone know: - How to configure it back to having a login screen - Wny I couldn't login as "root" at the graphical interface after I had just set the password (and yes, I checked that the password was entered correctly) Thanks, Dave -- dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com com Collector of vintage computing equipment: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html From james.rice at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 08:03:03 2007 From: james.rice at gmail.com (James Rice) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 07:03:03 -0600 Subject: Next Question In-Reply-To: <200709061152.l86Bq92f023854@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200709061152.l86Bq92f023854@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: assign a password to the me user. If "me" has a blank password it will autolog-in On 9/6/07, Dave Dunfield wrote: > > Hi Guys, > > Picked up a Next Slab yesterday ... complete with a couple > boxed versions of NextStep. > > Got it to boot up - It was configured to prompt for a > username and password - which of course I didn't have. > > I managed to restart it into single-user mode, and used > "passwd root" to change the root password. I also looked > at /etc/passwd and noted that "me" didn't have a password > (blank field). I did confirm that after "passwd root" the > encrypted string in /etc/passwd was changed. > > On restarting in multi-user mode, I was still unable to > login to the graphical interface - neither "root" with > the password I had set, or "me" with no password would > work. > > Restarted in single-user mode - this time I dug around on > the net and found information to use "nu -m" to set the > password. > > I reset the root password (again), and also reset the > "me" password to a null string. Looking at /etc/passwd > I noted that the password field for "me" was no longer > blank but now has an encrypted field (isn't no password > supposed to be represented by a blank field). > > Now the system boots up in multiuser mode and automatically > logs in as "me" - so I got to play with NextStep which is > kindof interesting (mouse is painfully slow however). > > Ideally, I'd like to have it prompt for login name so that > I could login as either root or me - anyone know: > - How to configure it back to having a login screen > - Wny I couldn't login as "root" at the graphical > interface after I had just set the password (and yes, > I checked that the password was entered correctly) > > Thanks, > Dave > > -- > dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield > dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com > com Collector of vintage computing equipment: > http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html > -- www.blackcube.org - The Texas State Home for Wayward and Orphaned Computers From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Sep 6 08:10:50 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 10:10:50 -0300 Subject: GALs and PALs (was Re: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia)) References: <680365.8423.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> <46DEF937.3030807@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <010b01c7f087$721309d0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > reason I am not using the CPLD's is the PCB package > I am using does not have a 84 Pin PLCC thru the hole > footprint. Which pcb package are you using, Ben? Have you tried diptrace? :) From paul0926 at comcast.net Thu Sep 6 07:47:05 2007 From: paul0926 at comcast.net (Paul Heller) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 06:47:05 -0600 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <46DF2960.A22F3A2B@cs.ubc.ca> References: <51ea77730709041544x4c1e5364n3bdf843f8ed6a9f2@mail.gmail.com> <46DF2960.A22F3A2B@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <4675E04C-8996-4981-B33F-00C0114D3C2F@comcast.net> On Sep 5, 2007, at 4:10 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > I received two orphan 320K keyboard/display units a few years ago > (no logic unit). > Hobbled up a little level-shifting hardware and wrote some > calculator code to > drive them from a SWTPC 6800 - in other words the 6800 was > replacing the > missing logic unit. Worked fine but the next (intended) step was to > redo it > all in a microcontroller and stuff it inside the 320K case so it > would be a > stand-alone 'modern' nixie desktop calculator. Would be kinda nice > because the > 320K KDUs have a small footprint compared to other nixie desktop > calcs. There > is very little spare room in the case however. I think I > anticipated it would be > feasible if one used an external wal-wart (ugly) for the power > transformer. > The KDUs are very well built: cast aluminum case, micro-switches > for the keys... Cool idea. Did you find the hardware interface documented somewhere, or did you reverse engineer it somehow? Was it something standard like RS-232? From drb at msu.edu Thu Sep 6 08:32:02 2007 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 09:32:02 -0400 Subject: Next Question In-Reply-To: (Your message of Thu, 06 Sep 2007 07:48:00 CDT.) <200709061152.l86Bq92f023854@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200709061152.l86Bq92f023854@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <200709061332.l86DW2Vh029435@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > - Wny I couldn't login as "root" at the graphical > interface after I had just set the password (and yes, > I checked that the password was entered correctly) Not sure about single-user mode, but normally, NeXT machines use nis/yp for authentication, so the fact that the /etc/passwd file was updated isn't all that helpful. The nidump and niload commands might be of interest to you in understanding this. Also, there are other tables besides passwd stored in nis. De From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 08:56:43 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 09:56:43 -0400 Subject: Next Question In-Reply-To: <200709061152.l86Bq92f023854@hosting.monisys.ca> References: <200709061152.l86Bq92f023854@hosting.monisys.ca> Message-ID: <46E0071B.6000904@gmail.com> Dave Dunfield wrote: > Hi Guys, > > Picked up a Next Slab yesterday ... complete with a couple > boxed versions of NextStep. > > Got it to boot up - It was configured to prompt for a > username and password - which of course I didn't have. > > I managed to restart it into single-user mode, and used > "passwd root" to change the root password. I also looked > at /etc/passwd and noted that "me" didn't have a password > (blank field). I did confirm that after "passwd root" the > encrypted string in /etc/passwd was changed. > > On restarting in multi-user mode, I was still unable to > login to the graphical interface - neither "root" with > the password I had set, or "me" with no password would > work. > > Restarted in single-user mode - this time I dug around on > the net and found information to use "nu -m" to set the > password. > > I reset the root password (again), and also reset the > "me" password to a null string. Looking at /etc/passwd > I noted that the password field for "me" was no longer > blank but now has an encrypted field (isn't no password > supposed to be represented by a blank field). > > Now the system boots up in multiuser mode and automatically > logs in as "me" - so I got to play with NextStep which is > kindof interesting (mouse is painfully slow however). > > Ideally, I'd like to have it prompt for login name so that > I could login as either root or me - anyone know: > - How to configure it back to having a login screen > - Wny I couldn't login as "root" at the graphical > interface after I had just set the password (and yes, > I checked that the password was entered correctly) If memory serves, you need to use Netinfo to do all of this stuff. Exactly how you go about it is something I don't remember clearly, but it's definitely in Netinfo Manager somewhere. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 09:00:04 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 10:00:04 -0400 Subject: Next Question In-Reply-To: <200709061332.l86DW2Vh029435@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <200709061152.l86Bq92f023854@hosting.monisys.ca> <200709061332.l86DW2Vh029435@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <46E007E4.6020905@gmail.com> Dennis Boone wrote: > > - Wny I couldn't login as "root" at the graphical > > interface after I had just set the password (and yes, > > I checked that the password was entered correctly) > > Not sure about single-user mode, but normally, NeXT machines use nis/yp > for authentication, so the fact that the /etc/passwd file was updated > isn't all that helpful. > > The nidump and niload commands might be of interest to you in > understanding this. Also, there are other tables besides passwd stored > in nis. NIS/YP and NetInfo aren't *exactly* the same thing. Peace... Sridhar From rickb at bensene.com Thu Sep 6 09:13:17 2007 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 07:13:17 -0700 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <4675E04C-8996-4981-B33F-00C0114D3C2F@comcast.net> References: <51ea77730709041544x4c1e5364n3bdf843f8ed6a9f2@mail.gmail.com><46DF2960.A22F3A2B@cs.ubc.ca> <4675E04C-8996-4981-B33F-00C0114D3C2F@comcast.net> Message-ID: The keyboard/display units were simple -- WAY more simple than serial RS-232. Logic levels were not TTL (remember, these machines were made with all-transistor...no IC's anywhere either the keyboard/display units, nor the electronics package). RS-232 serial did exist back then, but IC UARTs didn't exist, and everything had to be implemented using transistor logic, which could fill a small drawer full of circuit boards alone. If you wanted to interface with one of the 300-Series keyboard/display units, you'd have to design some level shifters to make standard TTL (or whatever) levels. The interface to the display was a 4 bit digit select (selects which nixie tube is to light up), and a 4-bit BCD code for the number to light up in that nixie tube. Since the display was multiplexed, you just incremented the digit select, and sequentially presented the digits to be displayed on each tube. The timing was somewhat important, as Nixie tubes have some on/off duty-cycle timing issues, and the cycle rate has to be fast enough that the display looks continuous, but not too fast, or the digits won't be at full brightness. The keyboard was encoded by a diode array to a 6-bit code, and a signal indicating when a key has been pressed. There were also a few toggle switches on the keyboard that selected various operational modes which were just unconditioned switch closures. The keyboard switches were microswitches, which switch pretty cleanly, but still a little conditioning is needed to get reliable key entry (e.g., a bit of delay after the "key pressed" signal goes active before sampling the keycode). The keyboard/display unit has a cable that comes out of it that terminates in a telco-style (similar to old Centronics printer connectors, but with a different number of pins). Power for logic and Nixie drive (about +250V) was provided through the cable, as well as all of the other signals. I believe Brent Hilpert has derived schematics of the display, the keyboard, and pinout of the connector of one of the Model 320K keyboard/display units, which is has online on his website. Check out: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/eec/calctd/Wang320K/index.html By the way, early design 300-series calculator keyboard/display units had cast metal cabinets. Later, the design was changed to a heavy cast-plastic cabinet for cost savings. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org > [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Heller > Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 5:47 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Re: Wang 300 Calc > > > On Sep 5, 2007, at 4:10 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > > > I received two orphan 320K keyboard/display units a few > years ago (no > > logic unit). > > Hobbled up a little level-shifting hardware and wrote some > calculator > > code to drive them from a SWTPC 6800 - in other words the 6800 was > > replacing the missing logic unit. Worked fine but the next > (intended) > > step was to redo it all in a microcontroller and stuff it > inside the > > 320K case so it would be a stand-alone 'modern' nixie desktop > > calculator. Would be kinda nice because the 320K KDUs have a small > > footprint compared to other nixie desktop calcs. There is > very little > > spare room in the case however. I think I anticipated it would be > > feasible if one used an external wal-wart (ugly) for the power > > transformer. > > The KDUs are very well built: cast aluminum case, > micro-switches for > > the keys... > > Cool idea. Did you find the hardware interface documented > somewhere, or did you reverse engineer it somehow? Was it > something standard like RS-232? > From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 6 09:22:22 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 10:22:22 -0400 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <200709060131.10531.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <301721.45062.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> <200709060131.10531.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Sep 6, 2007, at 1:31 AM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: >> Here's a neato question: You mentioned coprocessor >> boards, and in fact some kinda sorta functioned that >> way (in some sense - stuff got offloaded to the mpu on >> the board I guess). But what were some early ancillary >> processor boards for the pc/at/?. That is, where you >> plugged a whole 'nother puter into your main puter, >> and got to run separate apps off of that? Hmmmmm > > I'm remembering a couple of those in Byte, which I stopped reading > sometime > in the eighties. A 32032? (I never could keep the numbers of that > family > straight). A Z8000 for sure. Maybe a 68K of some sort. It's all very > fuzzy... Steve Ciarcia did a Z8000 card as a project in BYTE, called Trump Card. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 6 09:21:04 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 10:21:04 -0400 Subject: Next Question In-Reply-To: <46E007E4.6020905@gmail.com> References: <200709061152.l86Bq92f023854@hosting.monisys.ca> <200709061332.l86DW2Vh029435@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <46E007E4.6020905@gmail.com> Message-ID: <93DC389B-6BA3-4033-8384-4A8247488550@neurotica.com> On Sep 6, 2007, at 10:00 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: >> > - Wny I couldn't login as "root" at the graphical >> > interface after I had just set the password (and yes, >> > I checked that the password was entered correctly) >> Not sure about single-user mode, but normally, NeXT machines use >> nis/yp >> for authentication, so the fact that the /etc/passwd file was updated >> isn't all that helpful. >> The nidump and niload commands might be of interest to you in >> understanding this. Also, there are other tables besides passwd >> stored >> in nis. > > NIS/YP and NetInfo aren't *exactly* the same thing. They're nowhere near the same thing, though they perform similar functions. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From lproven at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 09:38:27 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 15:38:27 +0100 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <46DF00A3.7080307@gmail.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709031441w606c7373g32ad9614ce8efaf2@mail.gmail.com> <200709032153.45687.pat@computer-refuge.org> <575131af0709040343y6cb9cb3cs2cf7820740e4da8@mail.gmail.com> <868FBACC-B088-48FA-8CF4-7D16D04063B6@neurotica.com> <46DF00A3.7080307@gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0709060738m3691f4cdg32836ce9029ee76b@mail.gmail.com> On 05/09/07, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Not all are, but they were available. Still are, if you want to get an > IBM Bladecenter JS20. Just not in a Mac. They aren't now, as they're all Intel Core2 today. They were, though: http://lowendmac.com/ppc/g5-dual.html http://lowendmac.com/ppc/g5-quad.html > > z/OS is a "legacy" OS? Sure doesn't look that way to me. > > > > Am I just blind today or something? > > I was going to say something to that effect. *sigh* > > I believe MVS is selling/running on a greater number of copies now than > it ever has in the past. It may well be, yes. But is it not more relevant to ask: [1] how large is its proportional market share now compared to 5, 10, 20, 30y ago? I don't have any figures, but I bet its %age of the market /now/ is tiny compared to in the 1970s. [2] how many new green-field deployments are happening? > Also, in other messages in this thread, people have been saying stuff to > the effect that pSeries and zSeries aren't architecturally all that > different anymore. Anyone who says that hasn't used zSeries hardware. Well, it's a fair cop, I haven't. But then, this discussion at least started out as one about CPUs. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 09:40:23 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 15:40:23 +0100 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <200709032153.45687.pat@computer-refuge.org> <575131af0709040343y6cb9cb3cs2cf7820740e4da8@mail.gmail.com> <200709041033.53451.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <575131af0709060740s4050406bn171cece4a346704b@mail.gmail.com> On 04/09/07, William Donzelli wrote: > Looking back, the POWER lines for Apple were starting to be more of a > nuisance for IBM. I do not think anyone was crying in Fishkill when > the news came down about the Mac architecture change. Because IBM is /renowned/ for its long-term vision of the future of the PC industry. It's been right so many times, with the PS/2, for instance. I think its own estimation of its skills and knowledge of the PC business is amply demonstrated by its sale of its PC division to Lenovo. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 09:43:35 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 07:43:35 -0700 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <667241.97419.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> References: <20070905162151.S96315@shell.lmi.net> <667241.97419.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90709060743y58e2cfddo57bdb3004c45b2b1@mail.gmail.com> On 9/5/07, Chris M wrote: > I had been wondering if there were > boards for a pc that supplemented the operation of the > onboard mpu by providing another processor > altoghether, and in no way replacing the old 8088, > thereby in effect giving you 2 pc's in one. Of course > there were z80 boards, 68k? boards that accomplished > this. There were the HP Viper 82300 and Hyper-Viper 82324 68K based boards for running Rocky Mountain BASIC on a PC. ftp://ftp.agilent.com/pub/mpusup/pc/old/vp_over.html (I hope people have archived the above directory for the day when that info disappears...) From lproven at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 09:58:41 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 15:58:41 +0100 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <200709041033.53451.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <200709032153.45687.pat@computer-refuge.org> <575131af0709040343y6cb9cb3cs2cf7820740e4da8@mail.gmail.com> <200709041033.53451.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <575131af0709060758q4502edbdmcf21cdea7565af6b@mail.gmail.com> On 04/09/07, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Tuesday 04 September 2007, Liam Proven wrote: > > On 04/09/07, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > > On Monday 03 September 2007 17:41, Liam Proven wrote: > > > > On 03/09/07, William Donzelli wrote: > > > > > > I have a number of PowerMacs for that side of things. :?) > > > > > > > > > > The PowerPCs in Macs are the retarded little brothers of the > > > > > real POWER processors. > > > > > > > > Arguably, this may be so, but I'd submit two rather important > > > > riders on to that. > > > > > > > > [1] Whereas this was the case with the 601/603/604 and so on, I'm > > > > not sure it's really true any more. The "G5" is pretty much a > > > > 2-core POWER4, AIUI > > > > > > As I've read, the 601 is more POWER than the rest of the PPC chips. > > > Still much slower and dumbed down than the proper POWER (non-PC) > > > versions. > > > > Can you give some supporting evidence for that assertion? I've been > > following the development of POWER and PowerPC since their first > > announcements, and as far as I can see, the process has been one of > > gradual convergence. The PPC601 was a single-chip implementation of > > what was still a processor /chipset/ on the IBM side - IIRC, I think > > the contemporary IBM processor was spread over 5 chips or something. > > I don't feel like looking this up. Go look at SPECfp numbers for PPC > and POWER chips of the same era, for a starting point. There's also a > number of POWER architecture descriptions floating around the internet > which detail differences. > > > > And you have that backwards, the G5 is 1/2 of a POWER4 chip. > > > > I have nothing whatsover backwards and kindly don't make assumptions. > > I stated that the "G5" - the PPC970 family - is a dual-core POWER4; > > given that I was talking to someone who claims good knowledge of the > > POWER processors but seems not to be so /au fait/ with PowerPC, I did > > not see any necessity to spell out that POWER4 is a quad-core design. > > PPC970 also adds Altivec-compatible SIMD instructions to POWER, but > > is a highly capable 64-bit implementation of POWER. > > The POWER4 is dual core, the original G5 is single core. The newest G5 > is dual core. IBM didn't make ANY quad-core processors until the > POWER5+. Whoops! I'm sorry, you're absolutely right. I was getting my early versus my late models muddled up. I humbly apologise. > > I'm not aware of much that modern PPC processers can't do that POWER > > can, other than things intended for the support of legacy IBM OSs > > such as OS/400 or zOS. > > The POWER chips have a bunch of hypervisor goo, and many, many MBs of L3 > cache on the multicore versions. > > > > I guess a > > > dual-core G5 is close to a POWER4, but it's still lacking some > > > things, like cache. > > > > (?) The 970 has onboard primary and secondary cache. In the first > > model, 64KB of direct-mapped L1 instruction cache and 32KB of L1 data > > cache, plus 512KB of 2-way associative L2 cache. > > I wasn't say it was without *any* cache. It just has a lot less than > POWER4. No one builds modern processors without ANY cache, that'd just > be silly. Fair call. I think your phrasing was ambiguous, though: "it's still lacking some things, like cache." I have seen references to a cacheless Intel Celeron Ultra-Low-Voltage, but I can't find mention of it now. > > > And, the G5 has VMX/Altivec, which the POWER4 doesn't. > > > Mostly, the POWER4 was designed to be a enterprise server grade > > > CPU, and the G5 is designed to be a consumer-grade CPU. There's a > > > lot of trade-offs that they made when designing one vs the other. > > > > They discuss the tradeoffs between POWER4 and PPC970 in some detail. > > The PPC is and always has been a desktop processor for the retail > > consumer market; its rivals were the Athlon64 and Pentium 4D. As such > > it's tuned towards different demands than the POWER4, which is aimed > > for expensive, non-cost-sensitive IBM servers, minis and mainframes - > > not that there's a lot of difference between those 3 categories > > today. > > > > To copy the 1st article I link's summary of the differences: "In sum, > > the 970 is made to be faster, cheaper, and significantly less > > reliable than the Power4." > > Why should I read those? That was the exact point I was trying to make. Well, because it makes points like this: "One of the MPF seminar attendees, David Wang of RWT, revealed some interesting information in a *very recent article* on the 970. Allow me to summarize: As it turns out, at some tasks the PPC 970 will actually outperform its big brother, the Power4, because the 970 is made to run at higher clock rates. Apparently, in order to increase the reliability of the Power4 for the high-end server market, IBM used much thicker gate oxides on the chip's transistors. The trade-off for this decreased failure rate and improved reliability was that the Power4's transistors have slower switching speeds, so even with process shrinks it's harder to push the design to higher clock speeds. Since the 970 is made for the desktop market, there's no need for such measures and therefore the new chip's clock speed will scale much higher than the Power4's. In sum, the 970 is made to be faster, cheaper, and significantly less reliable than the Power4. (Of course, when I say "significantly less reliable than the Power4," you have to understand that this puts the 970's product life and failure rate on par with other mainstream CPUs, since the Power4's increased gate oxide thickness makes it significantly more reliable than most mainstream CPUs.)" The *very recent article* is here: http://www.realworldtech.com/page.cfm?AID=RWT101502203725 Which states that IBM, at the PPC970 launch, said: "In the case of the PowerPC 970, the processor does not need to meet similar reliability requirements as the POWER4 processor, and as a consequence, circuit and process technology can be tweaked to obtain higher performance by trading away the near-absolute reliability required by the POWER4 processor." > > > The POWER5 and POWER6 are quite a bit more interesting than any > > > PowerPC chip. In a somewhat theoretical sense, perhaps, yes. > > Yes, arguably, but now Apple has abandoned the PPC, it's dead in the > > water as far as the desktop is concerned, so it won't really evolve > > any further. (Which I think is a great shame.) > > POWER5 and POWER6 have evolved quite a bit from where POWER4 was. IBM > made a lot more money selling POWER processors, systems, and consulting > to go with it, than they ever did with selling PPC chips to apple. IBM > was dragging their feet with PPC features on the G5 (and whatever would > have been G6), which is why Apple abandoned them; if IBM was making > enough money from Apple on their G5s, I'm sure that they would have > payed more attention to what Apple wanted (like low-power noteboot > CPUs). Right now, PowerPC is selling like never before, as it's the basis of the Xbox360, Playstation 3 and Nintendo Wii. It's shipping millions of units - maybe tens of millions. After their year or two in the sun, though, I think it might subside into something of a minority niche. > > On the other hand, in the embedded market, there are fascinating > > chips like PA Semi's PWRficient line. > > > > http://news.zdnet.com/2100-9584_22-5907281.html > > http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/10/24/pasemi_power/print.html > > > > These will carry the torch forward for PPC, but we won't find them in > > any affordable desktop machines. > > Depends on what you mean by "affordable". Easily more affordable than > an inflation-adjusted IBM 5150 or similar. About the only company even claiming to make personal computers based around PowerPC now are Amiga-compatibles. Amiga's products are vapourware, as far as I can tell. At least you can buy Genesi EFIKA boxes. They're years away from any of the state-of-the-art stuff we've been discussing, though. They're looking at well-sub-1GHz SoC processors. > > > > [2] All the interesting apps and the desktop-relevant stuff is on > > > > PowerPC. Specifically, on OS X. Even a 10y old G3 Mac with OSX > > > > makes a pleasant and usable machine for the Web today and for > > > > day-to-day use. I can't think of a lot of use for a 10yo RS/6000 > > > > except as a server - as a workstation running Motif or something, > > > > it wouldn't be much use on the desktop today. > > > > > > Interesting depends on what you mean by it. > > > > Well, of course, but I went on to define what I meant in the same > > sentence on the same line. Desktop-relevant stuff that I can actually > > use. I'm reading and writing this on a web page; for the 2007 Web, I > > need a modern CSS2-capable browser, Flash, Javascript, Java, > > RealPlayer, QuickTime and Windows Media support. OS X delivers those; > > even PowerPC Linux, probably the most-widely-supported desktop Unix > > environment on PPC, does not. > > Whether or not you need Flash is a matter of debate... but a lot of that > can be handled by firefox, IBM's PPC JREs, and mplayer/xine. Who needs > three separate media players, when you can use one of two OSS players, > and play almost anything. I hear that the OSS flash player is even > very close to being able to play youtube/google flash videos. But, > alas, this still doesn't make a platform intersting to me. OK. Clearly we find very different things of relevance. I found PowerPC of interest because it was the Other Desktop Platform. It is no longer. Now, pretty much, the desktop is x86 from horizon to horizon, with a soupcon of ARM in a few low-power handheld and pocket devices. I think that's a damned shame. I personally use towers and notebooks. My clients, generally small businesses, use PCs and the occasional Mac. That means x86 all the way, with x86-64 starting to show on the horizon now. So what happens in big enterprise iron is of little direct import or interest to me. > > > POWER has AIX and i5/OS / OS/400. by themselves, much more > > > interesting to me than anything that runs on MacOSX. Of course, > > > I'm "one of those people" who runs Linux on their work-provided > > > PowerMac G5. I just can't seem to get my boss to want to pay $10k > > > for a proper POWER5 workstation from IBM. ;) > > > > A snag! > > > > I find these to be academically interesting OSs, ones I'd like to > > work with and know more about, but neither I nor my small-business > > clients have any direct personal or professional use or need for > > them. Unlike a Mac. > > Who said personal/professional use? I though that people collected > computers because they were "interesting", not just because they were > useful. I daresay most do. Me, I don't collect it unless I have some *use* for it, even if that's just in theory. I have Atari machines I've never turned on, because I wanted to play with MINT and the like. Maybe one day I'll have time... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 10:01:25 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 11:01:25 -0400 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <575131af0709060738m3691f4cdg32836ce9029ee76b@mail.gmail.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709031441w606c7373g32ad9614ce8efaf2@mail.gmail.com> <200709032153.45687.pat@computer-refuge.org> <575131af0709040343y6cb9cb3cs2cf7820740e4da8@mail.gmail.com> <868FBACC-B088-48FA-8CF4-7D16D04063B6@neurotica.com> <46DF00A3.7080307@gmail.com> <575131af0709060738m3691f4cdg32836ce9029ee76b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E01645.1020906@gmail.com> Liam Proven wrote: >>> z/OS is a "legacy" OS? Sure doesn't look that way to me. >>> >>> Am I just blind today or something? >> I was going to say something to that effect. *sigh* >> >> I believe MVS is selling/running on a greater number of copies now than >> it ever has in the past. > > It may well be, yes. But is it not more relevant to ask: > [1] how large is its proportional market share now compared to 5, 10, > 20, 30y ago? I don't have any figures, but I bet its %age of the > market /now/ is tiny compared to in the 1970s. It depends on how you define the market for a mainframe. It's not the same market as for a Windows PC, and it never was. > [2] how many new green-field deployments are happening? Many, many, MANY more than before. Less profit per install, but many, many more installs. Read up on zLinux and what it's doing to the market for mainframes. Peace... Sridhar From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Sep 6 10:22:20 2007 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 10:22:20 -0500 Subject: Next Question In-Reply-To: <200709061414.l86EEnBR040396@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200709061414.l86EEnBR040396@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 9:14 -0500 9/6/07, Dave wrote: >Now the system boots up in multiuser mode and automatically >logs in as "me" - so I got to play with NextStep which is >kindof interesting (mouse is painfully slow however). All the below applies to NS 3.3, don't recall for earlier versions (none of which are recommended, with some minor caveats) One of the "Dock" icons should be a clock/calendar (or some subset thereof). Double-click that, and it'll bring up "localization preferences". Click on the mouse, and you can change the mouse speed. People always comment on how fast my mouse is... As others have said, if a "me" password is set, you get the login screen. If not, it logs you straight in as "me", which is not a recommended way to run the machine (but if you've got boxed versions, you can always rebuild the HD...) To set the password, go back to Localization Preferences, and click on the padlock. To create other accounts, I always use UserManager (found in the NextAdmin folder). -- - Mark, 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Sep 6 10:35:43 2007 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 10:35:43 -0500 Subject: After Next Question Message-ID: ...and once you have an account set up... use NeXTAdmin/Hostmanager (click on the local.. menu item) to set up your ip address (no DHCP, sorry). ftp to ftp.peak.org, login as anonymous cd /pub/next-ftp/next browse away. Recommended: /apps/internet/www/OmniWeb gets you a web browser, which you can then use to hit http://www.distributed.net go to Download, then "Official Distributed.net clients", and you can pick up the current NeXT client and start crunching Optimal Golomb Ruler candidates. You need never waste another 68040 clock cycle! -- - Mark, 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Sep 6 11:14:48 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 10:14:48 -0600 Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: <46DF3B87.25650.1CEB5AE8@cclist.sydex.com> References: , <46DEA55E.10909.1AA0CE69@cclist.sydex.com>, <200709060202.22967.rtellason@verizon.net> <46DF3B87.25650.1CEB5AE8@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46E02778.8040609@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Anyone know if the old TI TTL Databook is online anywhere? I've > found some individual TTL datasheets on the TI site, but I'd like to > see the whole thing as a downloadable file. Bitsavers does. It looks around 1970 ish, but it is rather BIG. BTW* Does anybody know if "Designing with TTL integrated circuits" by TI is online? > Cheers, > Chuck Ben alias Woodelf * I hope not in Australia for a hardcopy. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Sep 6 11:20:11 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 10:20:11 -0600 Subject: GALs and PALs (was Re: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia)) In-Reply-To: <010b01c7f087$721309d0$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <680365.8423.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> <46DEF937.3030807@jetnet.ab.ca> <010b01c7f087$721309d0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <46E028BB.9000002@jetnet.ab.ca> Alexandre Souza wrote: >> reason I am not using the CPLD's is the PCB package >> I am using does not have a 84 Pin PLCC thru the hole >> footprint. > > Which pcb package are you using, Ben? Have you tried diptrace? :) < cheap > You mean a PCB program that costs money. < /cheap > I've looked at most and I don't need to pay $$$$ when I got a Free program here. The problem with the PLCC footprint is the socket has weird pin numbering on the corners. Ben alias woodelf. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 6 11:34:49 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 09:34:49 -0700 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90709060743y58e2cfddo57bdb3004c45b2b1@mail.gmail.com> References: <20070905162151.S96315@shell.lmi.net>, <667241.97419.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com>, <1e1fc3e90709060743y58e2cfddo57bdb3004c45b2b1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46DFC9B9.6126.1F16CE64@cclist.sydex.com> Seems to me that there was also a Burroughs (branded?) machine with a proporietary (i.e. Burroughs legacy architecture) board. How about S/370 emulator cards? --Chuck From alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br Thu Sep 6 12:32:02 2007 From: alexandre-listas at e-secure.com.br (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 14:32:02 -0300 Subject: GALs and PALs (was Re: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia)) References: <680365.8423.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> <46DEF937.3030807@jetnet.ab.ca><010b01c7f087$721309d0$f0fea8c0@alpha> <46E028BB.9000002@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <018901c7f0ac$3b2944f0$f0fea8c0@alpha> > < cheap > > You mean a PCB program that costs money. > < /cheap > No, it is free up to a reasonable sized size/pincount. Take a look, it costs nothing to look and Stanslaw is a nice guy (the developer). > I've looked at most and I don't need to pay $$$$ when I got a > Free program here. The problem with the PLCC footprint is the > socket has weird pin numbering on the corners. I use to create my own components here, I use some oddballs and not always I can find a ready-made component :( From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Sep 6 12:55:48 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 11:55:48 -0600 Subject: GALs and PALs (was Re: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia)) In-Reply-To: <018901c7f0ac$3b2944f0$f0fea8c0@alpha> References: <680365.8423.qm@web61017.mail.yahoo.com> <46DEF937.3030807@jetnet.ab.ca><010b01c7f087$721309d0$f0fea8c0@alpha> <46E028BB.9000002@jetnet.ab.ca> <018901c7f0ac$3b2944f0$f0fea8c0@alpha> Message-ID: <46E03F24.4070504@jetnet.ab.ca> Alexandre Souza wrote: > > No, it is free up to a reasonable sized size/pincount. Take a look, > it costs nothing to look and Stanslaw is a nice guy (the developer). I am thinking the design I will be several boards 8 x 10 inches this first one 40 74LS chips. This more the medium sized project. >> I've looked at most and I don't need to pay $$$$ when I got a >> Free program here. The problem with the PLCC footprint is the >> socket has weird pin numbering on the corners. I plan later to do that with the PLCC socket but I have find the pinout for it again on the web. > I use to create my own components here, I use some oddballs and not > always I can find a ready-made component :( From lproven at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 13:15:22 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 19:15:22 +0100 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <46E01645.1020906@gmail.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709031441w606c7373g32ad9614ce8efaf2@mail.gmail.com> <200709032153.45687.pat@computer-refuge.org> <575131af0709040343y6cb9cb3cs2cf7820740e4da8@mail.gmail.com> <868FBACC-B088-48FA-8CF4-7D16D04063B6@neurotica.com> <46DF00A3.7080307@gmail.com> <575131af0709060738m3691f4cdg32836ce9029ee76b@mail.gmail.com> <46E01645.1020906@gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0709061115g4614ce61v10ae1e639a4de198@mail.gmail.com> On 06/09/07, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Liam Proven wrote: > >>> z/OS is a "legacy" OS? Sure doesn't look that way to me. > >>> > >>> Am I just blind today or something? > >> I was going to say something to that effect. *sigh* > >> > >> I believe MVS is selling/running on a greater number of copies now than > >> it ever has in the past. > > > > It may well be, yes. But is it not more relevant to ask: > > [1] how large is its proportional market share now compared to 5, 10, > > 20, 30y ago? I don't have any figures, but I bet its %age of the > > market /now/ is tiny compared to in the 1970s. > > It depends on how you define the market for a mainframe. It's not the > same market as for a Windows PC, and it never was. Well, we could compare installs, or we could compare users. It's up to you. Either way, I'll warrant that its market share now is infinitisemal compared to what it once what. Even if they're shifting a million seats a year, which I really very much doubt, they're doing so in a market of hundreds of millions of users a year of other platforms. It's marginal. It may be high-margin, but it's a tiny drop in a big ocean. I think to describe a 33yo OS with a minute market share as a legacy system is a fair call, even if it is still in active development and being actively sold. > > [2] how many new green-field deployments are happening? > > Many, many, MANY more than before. Less profit per install, but many, > many more installs. Read up on zLinux and what it's doing to the market > for mainframes. All right, up to a point, yes. I've been watching the progress of Linux on S/390 and zSeries with some interest. I still don't reckon it's a very significant market share, and furthermore, every site running primarily or totally on Linux/390 is a site that's running less on actual IBM OSs. Indeed, tho' I don't know a lot about mainframes, I have a feeling that most Linux/390 is deployed on z/VM - which is to say, in an LPAR under VM - rather than under z/OS, which is to say, MVS. Linux is probably actually displacing MVS - z/OS - rather than helping it. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 13:21:41 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 14:21:41 -0400 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <46DFC9B9.6126.1F16CE64@cclist.sydex.com> References: <20070905162151.S96315@shell.lmi.net>, <667241.97419.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com>, <1e1fc3e90709060743y58e2cfddo57bdb3004c45b2b1@mail.gmail.com> <46DFC9B9.6126.1F16CE64@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46E04535.8020007@gmail.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > How about S/370 emulator cards? I believe the S/370 8-bit card was an off-the-shelf processor running custom microcode. Peace... Sridhar From lproven at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 13:22:15 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 19:22:15 +0100 Subject: Anyone collect VESA local bus stuff? Message-ID: <575131af0709061122j62b954e5t2ef830ff515cbc7a@mail.gmail.com> I have a VESA multi-I/O board on eBay at the mo', and a clutch of PCMCIA cards, mostly 3c589D NICs. On eBay UK. Items: - 270163133234 - 270163148732 - 270163155958 (I hope this is not against list rules, but AFAICR, I've not seen any list rules...) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 13:24:34 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 14:24:34 -0400 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <575131af0709061115g4614ce61v10ae1e639a4de198@mail.gmail.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709031441w606c7373g32ad9614ce8efaf2@mail.gmail.com> <200709032153.45687.pat@computer-refuge.org> <575131af0709040343y6cb9cb3cs2cf7820740e4da8@mail.gmail.com> <868FBACC-B088-48FA-8CF4-7D16D04063B6@neurotica.com> <46DF00A3.7080307@gmail.com> <575131af0709060738m3691f4cdg32836ce9029ee76b@mail.gmail.com> <46E01645.1020906@gmail.com> <575131af0709061115g4614ce61v10ae1e639a4de198@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E045E2.4040204@gmail.com> Liam Proven wrote: >> It depends on how you define the market for a mainframe. It's not the >> same market as for a Windows PC, and it never was. > > Well, we could compare installs, or we could compare users. It's up to > you. Either way, I'll warrant that its market share now is > infinitisemal compared to what it once what. The problem is that "users" is a somewhat nebulous concept when it comes to mainframes, and "seats" is a completely meaningless measure when it comes to mainframes. The average non-computer-using American probably accesses a mainframe at least a dozen times a week. More if you use a computer. It's not that there's a lot of mainframes out there, it's that they're quite pervasive. Peace... Sridhar From lproven at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 13:29:25 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 19:29:25 +0100 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <46E045E2.4040204@gmail.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709031441w606c7373g32ad9614ce8efaf2@mail.gmail.com> <200709032153.45687.pat@computer-refuge.org> <575131af0709040343y6cb9cb3cs2cf7820740e4da8@mail.gmail.com> <868FBACC-B088-48FA-8CF4-7D16D04063B6@neurotica.com> <46DF00A3.7080307@gmail.com> <575131af0709060738m3691f4cdg32836ce9029ee76b@mail.gmail.com> <46E01645.1020906@gmail.com> <575131af0709061115g4614ce61v10ae1e639a4de198@mail.gmail.com> <46E045E2.4040204@gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0709061129q237b0d57id5e2871eb94bcecd@mail.gmail.com> On 06/09/07, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Liam Proven wrote: > >> It depends on how you define the market for a mainframe. It's not the > >> same market as for a Windows PC, and it never was. > > > > Well, we could compare installs, or we could compare users. It's up to > > you. Either way, I'll warrant that its market share now is > > infinitisemal compared to what it once what. > > The problem is that "users" is a somewhat nebulous concept when it comes > to mainframes, and "seats" is a completely meaningless measure when it > comes to mainframes. The average non-computer-using American probably > accesses a mainframe at least a dozen times a week. More if you use a > computer. > > It's not that there's a lot of mainframes out there, it's that they're > quite pervasive. All right, conceded. But I suspect that there is a user count involved somewhere for licensing purposes! Re your point about accessing a mainframe - that would generally be very indirectly, though, no? They access a web server or an ATM or something, that probably talks to another server, that talks to a mainframe. Most of the tedious IT management press that I read seems to consider the client/server model obsolete now and talks of at least 3-layer models instead. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From pat at computer-refuge.org Thu Sep 6 13:31:19 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 14:31:19 -0400 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <575131af0709061115g4614ce61v10ae1e639a4de198@mail.gmail.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <46E01645.1020906@gmail.com> <575131af0709061115g4614ce61v10ae1e639a4de198@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <200709061431.19614.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Thursday 06 September 2007, Liam Proven wrote: > Well, we could compare installs, or we could compare users. It's up > to you. Either way, I'll warrant that its market share now is > infinitisemal compared to what it once what. > > Even if they're shifting a million seats a year, which I really very > much doubt, they're doing so in a market of hundreds of millions of > users a year of other platforms. It's marginal. It may be > high-margin, but it's a tiny drop in a big ocean. How do you count "number of users" on a payroll system? There's probably only a couple of users, but it's the number of people who get paid which matters... Number of users isn't always a useful benchmark. > All right, up to a point, yes. I've been watching the progress of > Linux on S/390 and zSeries with some interest. I still don't reckon > it's a very significant market share, and furthermore, every site > running primarily or totally on Linux/390 is a site that's running > less on actual IBM OSs. Unless they're running the typical Linux/390 environment under zVM. >From what I'm told, this is the most common arrangement, and lets IBM still sell large amounts of VM while customers are running Linux on the end layer. > Indeed, tho' I don't know a lot about mainframes, I have a feeling > that most Linux/390 is deployed on z/VM - which is to say, in an LPAR > under VM - rather than under z/OS, which is to say, MVS. Linux is > probably actually displacing MVS - z/OS - rather than helping it. Yeah, but zVM isn't free any more than zOS is. In effect, "zLinux" is helping IBM sell zVM. (And, more importantly to IBM, helping to sell maintenance contracts, and consulting work). Pat -- Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Sep 6 13:34:06 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 12:34:06 -0600 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <46E04535.8020007@gmail.com> References: <20070905162151.S96315@shell.lmi.net>, <667241.97419.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com>, <1e1fc3e90709060743y58e2cfddo57bdb3004c45b2b1@mail.gmail.com> <46DFC9B9.6126.1F16CE64@cclist.sydex.com> <46E04535.8020007@gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E0481E.6020805@jetnet.ab.ca> Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: >> How about S/370 emulator cards? > > I believe the S/370 8-bit card was an off-the-shelf processor running > custom microcode. The rumor I heard it was a 68000 with different microcode. That was the first and last time I heard of it. > Peace... Sridhar Ben alias woodelf From legalize at xmission.com Thu Sep 6 13:36:48 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 12:36:48 -0600 Subject: Anyone collect VESA local bus stuff? In-Reply-To: Your message of Thu, 06 Sep 2007 19:22:15 +0100. <575131af0709061122j62b954e5t2ef830ff515cbc7a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I also have some VLB cards that are free for cost of shipping. I'm in 84106. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Sep 6 13:44:09 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 11:44:09 -0700 Subject: A frightening little bit of technology Message-ID: <46E04A79.6060704@bitsavers.org> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140155187682 How to make an unreliable medium even LESS reliable. From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 13:44:58 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 14:44:58 -0400 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <575131af0709061129q237b0d57id5e2871eb94bcecd@mail.gmail.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709031441w606c7373g32ad9614ce8efaf2@mail.gmail.com> <200709032153.45687.pat@computer-refuge.org> <575131af0709040343y6cb9cb3cs2cf7820740e4da8@mail.gmail.com> <868FBACC-B088-48FA-8CF4-7D16D04063B6@neurotica.com> <46DF00A3.7080307@gmail.com> <575131af0709060738m3691f4cdg32836ce9029ee76b@mail.gmail.com> <46E01645.1020906@gmail.com> <575131af0709061115g4614ce61v10ae1e639a4de198@mail.gmail.com> <46E045E2.4040204@gmail.com> <575131af0709061129q237b0d57id5e2871eb94bcecd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E04AAA.7080308@gmail.com> Liam Proven wrote: >> It's not that there's a lot of mainframes out there, it's that they're >> quite pervasive. > > All right, conceded. > > But I suspect that there is a user count involved somewhere for > licensing purposes! Well, sort of. There are actually different ways of doing it, but if memory serves, the most popular is by prcoessor-load. There's even still a small but enthusiastic group of users who trade compute time. > Re your point about accessing a mainframe - that would generally be > very indirectly, though, no? They access a web server or an ATM or > something, that probably talks to another server, that talks to a > mainframe. Yes. Definitely. > Most of the tedious IT management press that I read seems to consider > the client/server model obsolete now and talks of at least 3-layer > models instead. The benefit of recent mainframe software architecture is that you can run all of the upstream layers on one machine. Run the web server on Linux, with transaction management or application backend running on VSE with the backend database on MVS. Run the whole rigamarole in LPARs or, most popularly, in VM guests. Each OS doing what it does best. Without that advance, I don't think there would be nearly as many mainframes out there as there are. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 13:50:11 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 14:50:11 -0400 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <200709061431.19614.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <46E01645.1020906@gmail.com> <575131af0709061115g4614ce61v10ae1e639a4de198@mail.gmail.com> <200709061431.19614.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <46E04BE3.9060700@gmail.com> Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> Indeed, tho' I don't know a lot about mainframes, I have a feeling >> that most Linux/390 is deployed on z/VM - which is to say, in an LPAR >> under VM - rather than under z/OS, which is to say, MVS. Linux is >> probably actually displacing MVS - z/OS - rather than helping it. > > Yeah, but zVM isn't free any more than zOS is. In effect, "zLinux" is > helping IBM sell zVM. (And, more importantly to IBM, helping to sell > maintenance contracts, and consulting work). I suspect it's probably actually helping to sell z/OS too. z/OS does high-performance database work much better than Linux. Why have a separate database server and a separate web server when you can do both on the same machine and have them talk to each other over high-speed intra-machine links instead of much slower LAN or cluster interconnect hardware? Linux has definitely started to displace z/VSE though. There's a bit too much overlap. I have seen installation with all three (and sometimes even z/TPF and others) on the same machine for the same application systems. Peace... Sridhar From lproven at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 14:08:12 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 20:08:12 +0100 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <200709061431.19614.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <46E01645.1020906@gmail.com> <575131af0709061115g4614ce61v10ae1e639a4de198@mail.gmail.com> <200709061431.19614.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <575131af0709061208o3053d0c8i1fff86d54bbe330f@mail.gmail.com> On 06/09/07, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > On Thursday 06 September 2007, Liam Proven wrote: > > Well, we could compare installs, or we could compare users. It's up > > to you. Either way, I'll warrant that its market share now is > > infinitisemal compared to what it once what. > > > > Even if they're shifting a million seats a year, which I really very > > much doubt, they're doing so in a market of hundreds of millions of > > users a year of other platforms. It's marginal. It may be > > high-margin, but it's a tiny drop in a big ocean. > > How do you count "number of users" on a payroll system? There's > probably only a couple of users, but it's the number of people who get > paid which matters... Is it? Even if none of those people access said computer in any way? I don't know any metric, off the top of my head, that attempts to measure systems' importance. What matters, what sets prices, is users, number of processors, number of systems, things like that. This is what determines sales charts and so on. Even if you measured the mainframes' /cost/ as an absolute, it would still be tiny compared to the hundreds of millions of PCs sold. Take the mainframe away, lots of people would be inconvenienced, yes. But the same is true of those millions of PCs. > > All right, up to a point, yes. I've been watching the progress of > > Linux on S/390 and zSeries with some interest. I still don't reckon > > it's a very significant market share, and furthermore, every site > > running primarily or totally on Linux/390 is a site that's running > > less on actual IBM OSs. > > Unless they're running the typical Linux/390 environment under zVM. > >From what I'm told, this is the most common arrangement, and lets IBM > still sell large amounts of VM while customers are running Linux on the > end layer. > > > Indeed, tho' I don't know a lot about mainframes, I have a feeling > > that most Linux/390 is deployed on z/VM - which is to say, in an LPAR > > under VM - rather than under z/OS, which is to say, MVS. Linux is > > probably actually displacing MVS - z/OS - rather than helping it. > > Yeah, but zVM isn't free any more than zOS is. In effect, "zLinux" is > helping IBM sell zVM. (And, more importantly to IBM, helping to sell > maintenance contracts, and consulting work). No argument there. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From ian_primus at yahoo.com Thu Sep 6 14:09:11 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 12:09:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A frightening little bit of technology In-Reply-To: <46E04A79.6060704@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <814788.56991.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Al Kossow wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140155187682 > > How to make an unreliable medium even LESS reliable. Hehe - I remember seeing those advertised in computer magazines way back when. I used to do the same thing sometimes, only I used a drill. Either that, or a paper cutter could cut the entire corner off the disk. Funny thing was, disks modified in this fashion never gave me any problems. I know that the media is different, and that it should have been unreliable, but, back then anyway, it worked just fine. I even remember reading an old disk as recently as last year, and it still worked. I never had the problem with floppies ten years ago that I have now with brand new disks. I think that at some point, the quality of the media just went through the floor. -Ian From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 14:09:49 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 15:09:49 -0400 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <575131af0709061115g4614ce61v10ae1e639a4de198@mail.gmail.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709031441w606c7373g32ad9614ce8efaf2@mail.gmail.com> <200709032153.45687.pat@computer-refuge.org> <575131af0709040343y6cb9cb3cs2cf7820740e4da8@mail.gmail.com> <868FBACC-B088-48FA-8CF4-7D16D04063B6@neurotica.com> <46DF00A3.7080307@gmail.com> <575131af0709060738m3691f4cdg32836ce9029ee76b@mail.gmail.com> <46E01645.1020906@gmail.com> <575131af0709061115g4614ce61v10ae1e639a4de198@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > I think to describe a 33yo OS How old is Unix now? Or Windows for that matter? -- Will From lproven at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 14:11:42 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 20:11:42 +0100 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <46E04AAA.7080308@gmail.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709040343y6cb9cb3cs2cf7820740e4da8@mail.gmail.com> <868FBACC-B088-48FA-8CF4-7D16D04063B6@neurotica.com> <46DF00A3.7080307@gmail.com> <575131af0709060738m3691f4cdg32836ce9029ee76b@mail.gmail.com> <46E01645.1020906@gmail.com> <575131af0709061115g4614ce61v10ae1e639a4de198@mail.gmail.com> <46E045E2.4040204@gmail.com> <575131af0709061129q237b0d57id5e2871eb94bcecd@mail.gmail.com> <46E04AAA.7080308@gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0709061211x25c8124do673a95c5d26d75ad@mail.gmail.com> On 06/09/07, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Liam Proven wrote: > >> It's not that there's a lot of mainframes out there, it's that they're > >> quite pervasive. > > > > All right, conceded. > > > > But I suspect that there is a user count involved somewhere for > > licensing purposes! > > Well, sort of. There are actually different ways of doing it, but if > memory serves, the most popular is by prcoessor-load. There's even > still a small but enthusiastic group of users who trade compute time. > > > Re your point about accessing a mainframe - that would generally be > > very indirectly, though, no? They access a web server or an ATM or > > something, that probably talks to another server, that talks to a > > mainframe. > > Yes. Definitely. > > > Most of the tedious IT management press that I read seems to consider > > the client/server model obsolete now and talks of at least 3-layer > > models instead. > > The benefit of recent mainframe software architecture is that you can > run all of the upstream layers on one machine. Run the web server on > Linux, with transaction management or application backend running on VSE > with the backend database on MVS. Run the whole rigamarole in LPARs or, > most popularly, in VM guests. Each OS doing what it does best. Without > that advance, I don't think there would be nearly as many mainframes out > there as there are. I am sure you're right. I've read lots about this myself. But from what I have read, it is not actually selling that many new mainframes. I've read figures of single-digit sales per year. It may be millions of US$ worth of business but it's not many actual systems. Indeed I think a fair bit of this sort of consolidation is happening by way of outsourcing to 3rd party datacentres - possibly on machines still owned by IBM. Yes, it's doing well. We are still not talking large volumes, though, by /any/ measure. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 14:16:40 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 20:16:40 +0100 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709031441w606c7373g32ad9614ce8efaf2@mail.gmail.com> <200709032153.45687.pat@computer-refuge.org> <575131af0709040343y6cb9cb3cs2cf7820740e4da8@mail.gmail.com> <868FBACC-B088-48FA-8CF4-7D16D04063B6@neurotica.com> <46DF00A3.7080307@gmail.com> <575131af0709060738m3691f4cdg32836ce9029ee76b@mail.gmail.com> <46E01645.1020906@gmail.com> <575131af0709061115g4614ce61v10ae1e639a4de198@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0709061216k2383a944x72d7ee3576a26f9e@mail.gmail.com> On 06/09/07, William Donzelli wrote: > > I think to describe a 33yo OS > > How old is Unix now? Or Windows for that matter? Windows 1: 1985. 22y old. Current version is a derivative of NT, released 1993; 14y old. Unix: depends who you ask. The C version is from 1973, so it's 1y older than MVS, but some of the mainframe heritage goes back over 40y. But I'd submit that Unix and Windows have come vastly further from their origins than any mainframe OS. Multiple complete rewrites, complete changes of look, feel and capabilities, changes of platform, etc. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 14:16:45 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 15:16:45 -0400 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <575131af0709061211x25c8124do673a95c5d26d75ad@mail.gmail.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <868FBACC-B088-48FA-8CF4-7D16D04063B6@neurotica.com> <46DF00A3.7080307@gmail.com> <575131af0709060738m3691f4cdg32836ce9029ee76b@mail.gmail.com> <46E01645.1020906@gmail.com> <575131af0709061115g4614ce61v10ae1e639a4de198@mail.gmail.com> <46E045E2.4040204@gmail.com> <575131af0709061129q237b0d57id5e2871eb94bcecd@mail.gmail.com> <46E04AAA.7080308@gmail.com> <575131af0709061211x25c8124do673a95c5d26d75ad@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > I am sure you're right. I've read lots about this myself. But from > what I have read, it is not actually selling that many new mainframes. > I've read figures of single-digit sales per year. Maybe single digit sales for Unisys. Oh yeah, they still make mainframes... -- Will From lproven at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 14:17:48 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 20:17:48 +0100 Subject: Anyone collect VESA local bus stuff? In-Reply-To: References: <575131af0709061122j62b954e5t2ef830ff515cbc7a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0709061217j4bcd824al2b324458896c41d@mail.gmail.com> On 06/09/07, Richard wrote: > I also have some VLB cards that are free for cost of shipping. I'm in > 84106. The starting price on my card is UK$0.01, which is as near as damnit free. If anyone actually wants it and it doesn't fetch at least a penny, they can have it for free too. :?) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 6 14:18:03 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 12:18:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 286 accelerator cards - Was : Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <209f01c7f03f$d717de20$6a01a8c0@liberator> Message-ID: <477067.73858.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> --- Geoff Reed wrote: > There was also one for the Dec-Rainbow, it went into > the 8086 socket, the > Turbow 286. Did this by any chance offer some degree of IBM compatibility, or was it just a speed-up? There were at least a couple of '286 upgrades for the Texas Instruments Professional Computer. Turns out there were also '286 versions of the TI PC and TI PPC. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 From lproven at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 14:19:00 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 20:19:00 +0100 Subject: MAC emulation? In-Reply-To: <46DECC62.70004@ubanproductions.com> References: <46DECC62.70004@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <575131af0709061219t2c00ef87xe457588679e905f4@mail.gmail.com> On 05/09/07, Tom Uban wrote: > I have a Powerbook 150 running System 7.? and only really use it for > one purpose, which is to run the old MOTU FreeStyle and FreeMIDI tools. > My question is if there is an emulation environment available for a PC > which provides enough facility to run System 7 (or possibly 8) and these > applications which need to talk MIDI via one of the serial ports and > a MIDI interface? Emulation: several. Basilisk II is the best-regarded, I believe. But MIDI - very little chance, I think. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 6 14:19:36 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 12:19:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <200709060131.10531.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <993638.16679.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> --- "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: > I'm remembering a couple of those in Byte, which I > stopped reading sometime > in the eighties. A 32032? (I never could keep the > numbers of that family > straight). A Z8000 for sure. Maybe a 68K of some > sort. It's all very > fuzzy... Speaking of Byte, there was a Circuit Cellar project board based around a MC68020. I think it may have been a graphics coprocessor, really don't remember. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you sell. http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 6 14:24:55 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 12:24:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <46DFE04B.8010103@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <976567.90084.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jules Richardson wrote: > I'm jumping in here mid-thread though so have lost > some of the context - I > can't think of a scenario where you plugged an > entire machine (implying things > like keyboard and video interfaces too) into an AT, > but there were certainly > all sorts of cards of the "CPU/memory/ROM/ISA > interface" around onto which > code could be offloaded. What was the purpose of offloading in this context? Simply acceleration? No, I can't think of any "whole puters" that could get plugged into a pc or at either, just thought I'd ask. But keep in mind you don't really need a distinct k/b and screen to do that. Years later they were quite common. I think it was Orange Micro or AST that came out w/286 Nubus cards for the early Nubus equipped Macs. I never bothered to get mine working, but I'm guessing the environment ran in a window on the Mac desktop. Nevertheless I think it would be very kewell to plug a whole 'nother puter into something vintij. Very kewell. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center. http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Sep 6 14:25:59 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 12:25:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A frightening little bit of technology In-Reply-To: <814788.56991.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <814788.56991.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070906122109.H36602@shell.lmi.net> > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140155187682 > > How to make an unreliable medium even LESS reliable. On Thu, 6 Sep 2007, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > Funny thing was, disks modified in this fashion never > gave me any problems. I know that the media is > different, and that it should have been unreliable, > but, back then anyway, it worked just fine. I even > remember reading an old disk as recently as last year, > and it still worked. The difference in coercivity of 720K v 1.4M is slight - 600 v ~730, as opposed to 300 v 600 for 360K v 1.2M. Therefore, you can usually get away with the reduction in reliability, where you couldn't with 5.25". > I never had the problem with floppies ten years ago > that I have now with brand new disks. I think that at > some point, the quality of the media just went through > the floor. Arg, don't get me started on how they don't make things like they usta. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 6 14:26:24 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 12:26:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <759971.77362.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> --- Dave McGuire wrote: > Steve Ciarcia did a Z8000 card as a project in > BYTE, called Trump > Card. Hmm. I don't think I'm in error, but I hope my previous post wasn't referring to this. I remember *something* appearing in BYTE w/a 68020. Rather into the later 80's... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 6 14:27:54 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 12:27:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <1e1fc3e90709060743y58e2cfddo57bdb3004c45b2b1@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <249616.92651.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> --- Glen Slick wrote: > There were the HP Viper 82300 and Hyper-Viper 82324 > 68K based boards > for running Rocky Mountain BASIC on a PC. > > ftp://ftp.agilent.com/pub/mpusup/pc/old/vp_over.html The early Vectras had cards w/68k's. For instrumental control IIRC. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Sep 6 14:28:29 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 12:28:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <868FBACC-B088-48FA-8CF4-7D16D04063B6@neurotica.com> <46DF00A3.7080307@gmail.com> <575131af0709060738m3691f4cdg32836ce9029ee76b@mail.gmail.com> <46E01645.1020906@gmail.com> <575131af0709061115g4614ce61v10ae1e639a4de198@mail.gmail.com> <46E045E2.4040204@gmail.com> <575131af0709061129q237b0d57id5e2871eb94bcecd@mail.gmail.com> <46E04AAA.7080308@gmail.com> <575131af0709061211x25c8124do673a95c5d26d75ad@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070906122754.N36602@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 6 Sep 2007, William Donzelli wrote: > Maybe single digit sales for Unisys. > Oh yeah, they still make mainframes... Surely the worldwide market can't be much more than half a dozen :-) From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 14:29:10 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 15:29:10 -0400 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <575131af0709061211x25c8124do673a95c5d26d75ad@mail.gmail.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709040343y6cb9cb3cs2cf7820740e4da8@mail.gmail.com> <868FBACC-B088-48FA-8CF4-7D16D04063B6@neurotica.com> <46DF00A3.7080307@gmail.com> <575131af0709060738m3691f4cdg32836ce9029ee76b@mail.gmail.com> <46E01645.1020906@gmail.com> <575131af0709061115g4614ce61v10ae1e639a4de198@mail.gmail.com> <46E045E2.4040204@gmail.com> <575131af0709061129q237b0d57id5e2871eb94bcecd@mail.gmail.com> <46E04AAA.7080308@gmail.com> <575131af0709061211x25c8124do673a95c5d26d75ad@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E05506.5020700@gmail.com> Liam Proven wrote: > I am sure you're right. I've read lots about this myself. But from > what I have read, it is not actually selling that many new mainframes. > I've read figures of single-digit sales per year. Much, much more than single-digit sales per year. I can see them being shipped from just down the hall from my office. It's a lot more than single digits per year. > It may be millions of US$ worth of business but it's not many actual > systems. Indeed I think a fair bit of this sort of consolidation is > happening by way of outsourcing to 3rd party datacentres - possibly on > machines still owned by IBM. > > Yes, it's doing well. We are still not talking large volumes, though, > by /any/ measure. Be careful with words like "any". Peace... Sridhar From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 6 14:30:48 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 12:30:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <46DFC9B9.6126.1F16CE64@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <488639.72912.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > Seems to me that there was also a Burroughs > (branded?) machine with a > proporietary (i.e. Burroughs legacy architecture) > board. I'm not sure what you're referring to here. There was a group of 286 (386?) Burroughs machines that were bios-less. Saw 1 on eBay a couple of years back. I should have grabbed them :( Did Burroughs ever build a real IBM compatible? Most know about the '186 based ICON. It almost seems like you're referring to something pcish w/some mini/mainframe card installed. But what do I know... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. http://sims.yahoo.com/ From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 14:31:16 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 15:31:16 -0400 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <868FBACC-B088-48FA-8CF4-7D16D04063B6@neurotica.com> <46DF00A3.7080307@gmail.com> <575131af0709060738m3691f4cdg32836ce9029ee76b@mail.gmail.com> <46E01645.1020906@gmail.com> <575131af0709061115g4614ce61v10ae1e639a4de198@mail.gmail.com> <46E045E2.4040204@gmail.com> <575131af0709061129q237b0d57id5e2871eb94bcecd@mail.gmail.com> <46E04AAA.7080308@gmail.com> <575131af0709061211x25c8124do673a95c5d26d75ad@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E05584.90805@gmail.com> William Donzelli wrote: >> I am sure you're right. I've read lots about this myself. But from >> what I have read, it is not actually selling that many new mainframes. >> I've read figures of single-digit sales per year. > > Maybe single digit sales for Unisys. Indeed. I would wager IBM ships somewhere in the mid-single digits per *week*. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 14:32:13 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 15:32:13 -0400 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <575131af0709061216k2383a944x72d7ee3576a26f9e@mail.gmail.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709031441w606c7373g32ad9614ce8efaf2@mail.gmail.com> <200709032153.45687.pat@computer-refuge.org> <575131af0709040343y6cb9cb3cs2cf7820740e4da8@mail.gmail.com> <868FBACC-B088-48FA-8CF4-7D16D04063B6@neurotica.com> <46DF00A3.7080307@gmail.com> <575131af0709060738m3691f4cdg32836ce9029ee76b@mail.gmail.com> <46E01645.1020906@gmail.com> <575131af0709061115g4614ce61v10ae1e639a4de198@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709061216k2383a944x72d7ee3576a26f9e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E055BD.2040306@gmail.com> Liam Proven wrote: > But I'd submit that Unix and Windows have come vastly further from > their origins than any mainframe OS. Multiple complete rewrites, > complete changes of look, feel and capabilities, changes of platform, > etc. You need to get yourself an old mainframe and a new one and play with them to see the differences yourself. You'll never take my word for it. Peace... Sridhar From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 14:35:19 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 15:35:19 -0400 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <575131af0709061208o3053d0c8i1fff86d54bbe330f@mail.gmail.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <46E01645.1020906@gmail.com> <575131af0709061115g4614ce61v10ae1e639a4de198@mail.gmail.com> <200709061431.19614.pat@computer-refuge.org> <575131af0709061208o3053d0c8i1fff86d54bbe330f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E05677.3060705@gmail.com> Liam Proven wrote: >> How do you count "number of users" on a payroll system? There's >> probably only a couple of users, but it's the number of people who get >> paid which matters... > > Is it? Even if none of those people access said computer in any way? Yes. Without a doubt. > I don't know any metric, off the top of my head, that attempts to > measure systems' importance. What matters, what sets prices, is users, > number of processors, number of systems, things like that. This is > what determines sales charts and so on. But sales numbers are by no means the only measure of importance. If sales numbers were the only measure, then every mainframe would be replaced by a giant pile of PCs to take advantage of the economies of scale. They tried that and failed miserably. > Even if you measured the mainframes' /cost/ as an absolute, it would > still be tiny compared to the hundreds of millions of PCs sold. > > Take the mainframe away, lots of people would be inconvenienced, yes. > But the same is true of those millions of PCs. More people would be inconvenienced by the loss of, say, 5000 mainframes than by the loss of 5000 PCs. Peace... Sridhar From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 6 14:35:47 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 12:35:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A frightening little bit of technology In-Reply-To: <814788.56991.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <753686.25648.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> --- Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > --- Al Kossow wrote: > > > > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140155187682 > > > > How to make an unreliable medium even LESS > reliable. Aw Al I used to nibble-notch my Commie 64 disks all the bloomin time LOL. I know, apples and oranges. The disks were double sided in fact, but you had to notch 'em before you flipped them over. > Funny thing was, disks modified in this fashion > never > gave me any problems. I know that the media is > different, and that it should have been unreliable, > but, back then anyway, it worked just fine. I even > remember reading an old disk as recently as last > year, > and it still worked. Many quality branded disks could "double up" on the density. I couldn't believe it when a friend told me that for quads he was using regular DD floppies. Yeah back then floppies were big business I guess, and in order to avoid a bad name, they were over engineered. > I never had the problem with floppies ten years ago > that I have now with brand new disks. I think that > at > some point, the quality of the media just went > through > the floor. It probably has a lot to do w/the media, but I also think the new drives are basically crap also. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Shape Yahoo! in your own image. Join our Network Research Panel today! http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 6 14:44:59 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 12:44:59 -0700 Subject: A frightening little bit of technology In-Reply-To: <814788.56991.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <46E04A79.6060704@bitsavers.org>, <814788.56991.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46DFF64B.14573.1FC4E82E@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Sep 2007 at 12:09, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > I never had the problem with floppies ten years ago > that I have now with brand new disks. I think that at > some point, the quality of the media just went through > the floor. Indeed, when the price of a box of 1.44 DSHD (Fuji, IIRC) was around $50 and 720K DS2D diskettes were a fraction of that, it paid to punch the holes. I had a hole punch at one time, but then just decided to stack up a pile of them in the drill press and drill the hole out with a brad-point bit. Worked just fine--and I still have some of those "modified" diskettes that are still very readable. Not at all like the "new" DSHD media that I have. You could also do the same trick, albeit with less success to get DSED from DS2D. But then DSED was never that reliable anyway... What surprises me is the occasional 5.25" diskette that shows up for conversion that's written on DSHD media but formatted for 360K 2D. Many still are quite readable after 20 years. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 6 14:11:45 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 20:11:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Sep 5, 7 06:31:11 pm Message-ID: > > On 9/5/07, Tony Duell wrote: > > Don;'t you mean 7483 here? ... > > > > The 74283 is a 4-bit adder with a more sane pinout (and corner supply pins). [...] > I did not realize it was a strange-power-pin part. I would have > figured it out eventually, but it's best to be forwarned. It's even better to have a TTL databook to hand when working on such machines. Then you're not tempted to guess. Actually, that's another advantage of paper databooks. Since the databooks cover many related chips, you're likely to have the data on most of the chips in the machine to hand if you have the databooks on some of them. Whereas if you download infividual datasheets, you'll only have the data on the chips you've downloaded data for. Which means that if you're debugging an old machine and come across some chip you didn't realise was used in said machine, if you have the databook, you probably have the datahsset, and will look it up. If you are relying on the web, you might say 'Oh, I know that one' and not bother to downloasd and print the datasheet. And then spend hours sorting out a problem due to the fact that you didn't really know said chip... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 6 14:20:10 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 20:20:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: Belgian computers? In-Reply-To: <46DF41EC.4080001@yahoo.co.uk> from "Jules Richardson" at Sep 6, 7 00:55:24 am Message-ID: > I remember NATS at West Drayton in the UK were using Barco displays when I > visited them a couple of years ago. The CRT screens must have been something > like a 28" diagonal and the resolution was very high, several thousand pixels > in each axis. Engineering on them looked to be a very high standard, too. I can't comment on modern Barco stuff, but I have an old Barco TV monitor here (about 27 yeras old). It is quite simply the best engineered monitor it's ever been my pleasure to work on or use. The picture is, of course, second-to-none (given the limitations of a TV-rate signal, OK...). The think is built like a tank, with solid metal chassis work, plug-in cards, labelled testpoints, a drawer that slides out at the fornt containing the converegence PCB and deflection boards (where most of the adjustments are), even an extender board stored inside the unit. The manual contains full schematics, waveform data, parts lists, and so on. Truely an excellent piece of engineering. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Sep 6 14:23:52 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 20:23:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: [Free] Old Data Books (Australia) In-Reply-To: <46DF7949.7090905@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Sep 5, 7 09:51:37 pm Message-ID: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > Don;'t you mean 7483 here? The 7486 is a quad XOR gate, pinout similar to > > the 8400, and with corner supply pins. > I meant 'pinout like the 7400', of course. The 74L86 is aonther one of the 'different pinouts to the plain version'. It has the outputs on the centre pins of each side (corner power), rather like the normal 4000-series CMOS quad gates. -tony From doc at mdrconsult.com Thu Sep 6 15:15:43 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 15:15:43 -0500 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <575131af0709061208o3053d0c8i1fff86d54bbe330f@mail.gmail.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <46E01645.1020906@gmail.com> <575131af0709061115g4614ce61v10ae1e639a4de198@mail.gmail.com> <200709061431.19614.pat@computer-refuge.org> <575131af0709061208o3053d0c8i1fff86d54bbe330f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E05FEF.4080900@mdrconsult.com> Liam Proven wrote: > On 06/09/07, Patrick Finnegan wrote: >> On Thursday 06 September 2007, Liam Proven wrote: >>> Well, we could compare installs, or we could compare users. It's up >>> to you. Either way, I'll warrant that its market share now is >>> infinitisemal compared to what it once what. >>> > Even if you measured the mainframes' /cost/ as an absolute, it would > still be tiny compared to the hundreds of millions of PCs sold. As it has been since roughly 1975. I'm really confused as to what point you're trying to make. If the point is that Dell sells a metric buttload more PC crap than IBM sells mainframes, I don't believe anyone disagrees. If the point is that zSeries or s/390 systems are obsolete, that point will never hold water. A very good analogy would be a comparison of passenger-car sales to diesel/electric locomotive sales. Trains have been around a hell of a lot longer than passenger cars, and they still do exactly what they've always done. And, for every locomotive engine sold today, there are likely millions of cars sold. Not only does that not prove that trains are obsolete, but the comparison is absolutely meaningless. >>> Indeed, tho' I don't know a lot about mainframes, I have a feeling >>> that most Linux/390 is deployed on z/VM - which is to say, in an LPAR >>> under VM - rather than under z/OS, which is to say, MVS. Linux is >>> probably actually displacing MVS - z/OS - rather than helping it. In fact, the instance of z/OS compared to z/VM is going *up*, not down. Those "marginally interesting" p5 systems are scaling into the low-end LPAR market, while a lot of high-end work, especially in database ops, is scaling into the realm of single-image mainframes. I've been following both branches of this thread (zOS market share, and POWER vs 970FX), and I really have to ask: Do you have any actual experience with, first-hand knowledge of, or formal training in *any* of IBM's non-x86 server platforms? Because everyone who has replied to you, including myself, work with them daily. I'm probably the least knowledgeable, as I have very little experience with the mainframes and none at all with AS/400 or i5. My point is that Pat, Sridhar, William, and even I might know what we're talking about. Doc From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 6 15:23:56 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 13:23:56 -0700 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <488639.72912.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> References: <46DFC9B9.6126.1F16CE64@cclist.sydex.com>, <488639.72912.qm@web61020.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46DFFF6C.3615.1FE89366@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Sep 2007 at 12:30, Chris M wrote: > Did Burroughs ever build a real IBM compatible? Most > know about the '186 based ICON. It almost seems like > you're referring to something pcish w/some > mini/mainframe card installed. But what do I know... Definitely a PC base with some technology installed. It was discussed (last year?) in the archives. I'm thinking about the XE550 (Intel 186+4 Moto 68K) and all of the NGEN IOP modules that could run CTOS. The Intel CPU ran Win NT, IIRC. I'm very fuzzy on it all right now. Cheers, Chuck From wdg3rd at comcast.net Thu Sep 6 15:26:07 2007 From: wdg3rd at comcast.net (wdg3rd at comcast.net) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 20:26:07 +0000 Subject: Second processor cards Message-ID: <090620072026.21065.46E0625F000B68BF0000524922135753330B9DCC090B99@comcast.net> > Message: 24 > Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 12:24:55 -0700 (PDT) > From: Chris M > Subject: Re: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? > What was the purpose of offloading in this context? > Simply acceleration? No, I can't think of any "whole > puters" that could get plugged into a pc or at either, > just thought I'd ask. But keep in mind you don't > really need a distinct k/b and screen to do that. > Years later they were quite common. I think it was > Orange Micro or AST that came out w/286 Nubus cards > for the early Nubus equipped Macs. I never bothered to > get mine working, but I'm guessing the environment ran > in a window on the Mac desktop. > Nevertheless I think it would be very kewell to plug > a whole 'nother puter into something vintij. Very kewell. This was discussed in another thread a little while ago. http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/1997-November/092425.html -- Ward Griffiths wdg3rd at comcast.net Well, if you're gonna buy a ticket on the Titanic, you might as well go First Class. Captain Audie Murphy, Texas Ranger, in _Roswell, Texas_ by L. Neil Smith, Rex May and Scott Bieser. http://www.bigheadpress.com/roswell/ From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 6 15:30:29 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 13:30:29 -0700 Subject: A frightening little bit of technology In-Reply-To: <753686.25648.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> References: <814788.56991.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <753686.25648.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46E000F5.6024.1FEE9275@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Sep 2007 at 12:35, Chris M wrote: > Many quality branded disks could "double up" on the > density. I couldn't believe it when a friend told me > that for quads he was using regular DD floppies. Yeah > back then floppies were big business I guess, and in > order to avoid a bad name, they were over engineered. Let's be clear here--I interpret 5.25 DD to be 360K (250K data rate at 300 RPM) at 48 tpi. And "quad" to me is the same data rate but narrower tracks for 96 tpi and 720K. AFAIK, the only difference between DSDD and DSQD was the supposed certification provided by the mnaufacturer. I never found any difference at all. Cheers, Chuck From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Sep 6 15:31:46 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 13:31:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <249616.92651.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> References: <249616.92651.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 6 Sep 2007, Chris M wrote: > --- Glen Slick wrote: > > > There were the HP Viper 82300 and Hyper-Viper 82324 > > 68K based boards > > for running Rocky Mountain BASIC on a PC. > > > > ftp://ftp.agilent.com/pub/mpusup/pc/old/vp_over.html > > The early Vectras had cards w/68k's. For instrumental > control IIRC. Does anyone here remember or have a Sparcplug? -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 15:33:38 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 16:33:38 -0400 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <20070906122754.N36602@shell.lmi.net> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709060738m3691f4cdg32836ce9029ee76b@mail.gmail.com> <46E01645.1020906@gmail.com> <575131af0709061115g4614ce61v10ae1e639a4de198@mail.gmail.com> <46E045E2.4040204@gmail.com> <575131af0709061129q237b0d57id5e2871eb94bcecd@mail.gmail.com> <46E04AAA.7080308@gmail.com> <575131af0709061211x25c8124do673a95c5d26d75ad@mail.gmail.com> <20070906122754.N36602@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: > Surely the worldwide market can't be much more than half a dozen :-) I bet less than 50, seriously. I would actually like to get my hands on a Unisys - actually, both flavors - just to see what they are all about. -- Will From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 6 15:34:41 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 13:34:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: A frightening little bit of technology In-Reply-To: <46E000F5.6024.1FEE9275@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <956510.23785.qm@web61011.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > Let's be clear here--I interpret 5.25 DD to be 360K > (250K data rate > at 300 RPM) at 48 tpi. And "quad" to me is the same > data rate but > narrower tracks for 96 tpi and 720K. AFAIK, the > only difference > between DSDD and DSQD was the supposed certification > provided by the > mnaufacturer. I never found any difference at all. Well I wish you could have been clear about this ~20 years back. I thus wouldn't have blown all those extra cordobas on senseless certification! Sheesh! ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when. http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/222 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 6 15:36:12 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 13:36:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <194882.16120.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> --- David Griffith wrote: > On Thu, 6 Sep 2007, Chris M wrote: > > > --- Glen Slick wrote: > > > > > There were the HP Viper 82300 and Hyper-Viper > 82324 > > > 68K based boards > > > for running Rocky Mountain BASIC on a PC. > > > > > > > ftp://ftp.agilent.com/pub/mpusup/pc/old/vp_over.html > > > > The early Vectras had cards w/68k's. For > instrumental > > control IIRC. > > Does anyone here remember or have a Sparcplug? O sure. I got 6. Can't spare a one though. I hate rattling down the road on less then all-cylinders LOL LOL LOL LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL! ____________________________________________________________________________________ Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s user panel and lay it on us. http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7 From ploopster at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 15:41:47 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 16:41:47 -0400 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709060738m3691f4cdg32836ce9029ee76b@mail.gmail.com> <46E01645.1020906@gmail.com> <575131af0709061115g4614ce61v10ae1e639a4de198@mail.gmail.com> <46E045E2.4040204@gmail.com> <575131af0709061129q237b0d57id5e2871eb94bcecd@mail.gmail.com> <46E04AAA.7080308@gmail.com> <575131af0709061211x25c8124do673a95c5d26d75ad@mail.gmail.com> <20070906122754.N36602@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <46E0660B.4050509@gmail.com> William Donzelli wrote: >> Surely the worldwide market can't be much more than half a dozen :-) > > I bet less than 50, seriously. > > I would actually like to get my hands on a Unisys - actually, both > flavors - just to see what they are all about. One of the things I have in my pile is a Honeywell/Bull DPS9000. How many of those do you think are left? And yes, GCOS 8 machines are still being made too. Peace... Sridhar From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Sep 6 16:02:58 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 15:02:58 -0600 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <759971.77362.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> References: <759971.77362.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46E06B02.7080201@jetnet.ab.ca> Chris M wrote: > --- Dave McGuire wrote: > >> Steve Ciarcia did a Z8000 card as a project in >> BYTE, called Trump >> Card. > > Hmm. I don't think I'm in error, but I hope my > previous post wasn't referring to this. I remember > *something* appearing in BYTE w/a 68020. Rather into > the later 80's... > I kind of dumped Steve after he did his PC clone. :( Too bad 68000's and 8088's are the only cpu's that hit the home market. Now I find out about the better chips. Ben alias Woodelf. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Thu Sep 6 16:04:04 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 22:04:04 +0100 Subject: D-shell sizes [was Re: Slightly rare Mac 512k with D(?) -25connector] References: <200709050342.l853gaMx098454@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <200709051604.MAA10529@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA>, <200709060113.20812.rtellason@verizon.net> <46DF3857.12798.1CDEE823@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <015a01c7f0c9$768ad050$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > Anyone have one of the "gutless" Atari laser printers? Did >it connect to the ACSI port or to the printer port--or somewhere >else? I never had one back in the day, but my understanding was that it connected to the ACSI port. TTFN - Pete. From sellam at vintagetech.com Thu Sep 6 16:09:41 2007 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 14:09:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VCF X - November 3-4 Message-ID: Hey All! Just a quick heads-up that things are starting to roll for the tenth anniversary VCF event this November 3-4. I'm working on some pretty incredible stuff behind the scenes that will be announced in the next couple of weeks. As of now we have about 5 registered exhibits. I'll be posting more speakers to the roster in the next couple days and have several more to confirm that will go up in the next several weeks. If anyone has an idea for a talk or workshop they'd like to give I'd love to hear it, so e-mail me off-list if you'd like to participate. With two months to go things are going to start to move fast, so anyone planning to exhibit at the VCF this year is encouraged to register ASAP. http://www.vintage.org/2007/main/ -- Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org [ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ] [ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ] From gordon at gjcp.net Thu Sep 6 14:46:51 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 20:46:51 +0100 Subject: MAC emulation? In-Reply-To: <46DECC62.70004@ubanproductions.com> References: <46DECC62.70004@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: <1189108011.8667.2.camel@elric> On Wed, 2007-09-05 at 10:33 -0500, Tom Uban wrote: > I have a Powerbook 150 running System 7.? and only really use it for > one purpose, which is to run the old MOTU FreeStyle and FreeMIDI tools. > My question is if there is an emulation environment available for a PC > which provides enough facility to run System 7 (or possibly 8) and these > applications which need to talk MIDI via one of the serial ports and > a MIDI interface? I've got a couple of powerbooks of similar era that I'd like to get some sort of sequencer for. Maybe an early version of Cubase, like I used to use on the ST. Gordon From bob_lafleur at technologist.com Thu Sep 6 16:48:56 2007 From: bob_lafleur at technologist.com (Bob Lafleur) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 17:48:56 -0400 Subject: MAC emulation? In-Reply-To: <1189108011.8667.2.camel@elric> Message-ID: <00f001c7f0cf$b9cee8f0$0c3ca8c0@ctrenaissance.net> There's BasiliskII... Not sure if it will meet your requirements. http://basilisk.cebix.net/ -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Gordon JC Pearce Sent: Thursday, September 06, 2007 3:47 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: MAC emulation? On Wed, 2007-09-05 at 10:33 -0500, Tom Uban wrote: > I have a Powerbook 150 running System 7.? and only really use it for > one purpose, which is to run the old MOTU FreeStyle and FreeMIDI tools. > My question is if there is an emulation environment available for a PC > which provides enough facility to run System 7 (or possibly 8) and these > applications which need to talk MIDI via one of the serial ports and > a MIDI interface? I've got a couple of powerbooks of similar era that I'd like to get some sort of sequencer for. Maybe an early version of Cubase, like I used to use on the ST. Gordon From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Thu Sep 6 16:56:49 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 14:56:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MAC emulation? In-Reply-To: <46DECC62.70004@ubanproductions.com> References: <46DECC62.70004@ubanproductions.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 5 Sep 2007, Tom Uban wrote: > I have a Powerbook 150 running System 7.? and only really use it for > one purpose, which is to run the old MOTU FreeStyle and FreeMIDI tools. > My question is if there is an emulation environment available for a PC > which provides enough facility to run System 7 (or possibly 8) and these > applications which need to talk MIDI via one of the serial ports and > a MIDI interface? I don't know about MIDI with Mac emulators, but at least two Atari ST emulators (STEEM and Hatari) will talk to midi ports. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 6 16:57:03 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 14:57:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <46E06B02.7080201@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <69835.40776.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> --- woodelf wrote: > I kind of dumped Steve after he did his PC clone. :( > Too bad 68000's and 8088's are the only cpu's that > hit the home market. Now I find out about the better > chips. Um, wasn't that like 1982? ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 6 17:15:24 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 15:15:24 -0700 Subject: A frightening little bit of technology In-Reply-To: <46E04A79.6060704@bitsavers.org> References: <46E04A79.6060704@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <46E0198C.30413.204EA012@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Sep 2007 at 11:44, Al Kossow wrote: > http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140155187682 > > How to make an unreliable medium even LESS reliable. Well, I don't know. In the universe of "read-and-write unreliable media", floppies rate as pretty darned reliable from the standpoint of "How many years can elapse between writing and reading before the medium becomes unreadable?" Hard disks seem to develop problems regularly (bumpers turning to goo etc., not being able to locate the correct controller to read the old stuff), tapes seem to have all sorts of problems from QIC cartridges shedding to the wonderful experience of oxide sticking to the next layer on 1/2" 9-track tape (it really makes a mess on a 200 ips streamer). MO carts that fail mysteriously or problems locating the appropriate drive. I don't know how USB flash will fare in 30 years. Punched cards are still pretty good. I can still read the first floppies I wrote over 30 years ago just fine--and have 3.5" diskettes more than 20 years old that read just fine. Basalt tablets--now there's a reliable medium. Cheers, Chuck From James at jdfogg.com Thu Sep 6 17:32:26 2007 From: James at jdfogg.com (James Fogg) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 18:32:26 -0400 Subject: Once upon a time Message-ID: <4EE5D8CA323707439EF291AC9244BD9A256FDE@sbs.jdfogg.com> When one spoke of computer research and manufacture, you were speaking of Massachusetts. And it was all clustered along Rt. 128 (except DEC). Someone made a poster of it. http://boston.craigslist.org/gbs/for/415042460.html Link probably has a limited life expectancy. James - "I seem to be having tremendous difficulty with my lifestyle" From rtellason at verizon.net Thu Sep 6 18:04:06 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 19:04:06 -0400 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: References: <301721.45062.qm@web61013.mail.yahoo.com> <200709060131.10531.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200709061904.06605.rtellason@verizon.net> On Thursday 06 September 2007 10:22, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Sep 6, 2007, at 1:31 AM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > >> Here's a neato question: You mentioned coprocessor > >> boards, and in fact some kinda sorta functioned that > >> way (in some sense - stuff got offloaded to the mpu on > >> the board I guess). But what were some early ancillary > >> processor boards for the pc/at/?. That is, where you > >> plugged a whole 'nother puter into your main puter, > >> and got to run separate apps off of that? Hmmmmm > > > > I'm remembering a couple of those in Byte, which I stopped reading > > sometime in the eighties. A 32032? (I never could keep the numbers of > > that family straight). A Z8000 for sure. Maybe a 68K of some sort. It's > > all very fuzzy... > > Steve Ciarcia did a Z8000 card as a project in BYTE, called Trump > Card. That's probably the one I'm remembering, then. That was a better magazine before he left... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 6 18:06:30 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 19:06:30 -0400 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <759971.77362.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> References: <759971.77362.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <8C74A25E-2F95-4A25-AF64-2BEB963BFF9E@neurotica.com> On Sep 6, 2007, at 3:26 PM, Chris M wrote: >> Steve Ciarcia did a Z8000 card as a project in >> BYTE, called Trump >> Card. > > Hmm. I don't think I'm in error, but I hope my > previous post wasn't referring to this. I remember > *something* appearing in BYTE w/a 68020. Rather into > the later 80's... I have (I think) everything Ciarcia has ever written...I don't think he ever did anything with the 68020. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From legalize at xmission.com Thu Sep 6 18:09:50 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 17:09:50 -0600 Subject: power brownout logger? Message-ID: Sorry if this is a little off-topic, but after hunting around on the net I couldn't find the right search term to find what I'm looking for. OK, my power company sucks. I have brownouts and power outages all too frequently. Yet when I look at the statistics recorded by the public utilities commission, it seems obvious to me that they aren't showing an accurate record of what happens at my house. So I'm looking for a device (I'm fairly certain I've seen these before) that I plug into a wall outlet and it keeps a log of voltage sags, brownouts and outages. Then I can use this to build a reliability profile of my power company as raw data to compete with their b.s. line that its never their fault when my power constantly sucks. Any suggestions? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 6 18:10:05 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 16:10:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <8C74A25E-2F95-4A25-AF64-2BEB963BFF9E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <209208.65248.qm@web61018.mail.yahoo.com> --- Dave McGuire wrote: > I have (I think) everything Ciarcia has ever > written...I don't > think he ever did anything with the 68020. Hmm. I would think it had to be him. I hope I wasn't just reading a product review. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. http://travel.yahoo.com/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 6 18:10:01 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 19:10:01 -0400 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <575131af0709061129q237b0d57id5e2871eb94bcecd@mail.gmail.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709031441w606c7373g32ad9614ce8efaf2@mail.gmail.com> <200709032153.45687.pat@computer-refuge.org> <575131af0709040343y6cb9cb3cs2cf7820740e4da8@mail.gmail.com> <868FBACC-B088-48FA-8CF4-7D16D04063B6@neurotica.com> <46DF00A3.7080307@gmail.com> <575131af0709060738m3691f4cdg32836ce9029ee76b@mail.gmail.com> <46E01645.1020906@gmail.com> <575131af0709061115g4614ce61v10ae1e639a4de198@mail.gmail.com> <46E045E2.4040204@gmail.com> <575131af0709061129q237b0d57id5e2871eb94bcecd@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <305BBFC6-261C-465A-8BCF-F89C0593D773@neurotica.com> On Sep 6, 2007, at 2:29 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > Most of the tedious IT management press that I read seems to consider > the client/server model obsolete now and talks of at least 3-layer > models instead. Well...the IT management press has never really had much of a clue of how things are done in the real data processing world, so this is not entirely surprising. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Thu Sep 6 18:13:30 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 16:13:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <8C74A25E-2F95-4A25-AF64-2BEB963BFF9E@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <967887.97474.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> --- Dave McGuire wrote: > I have (I think) everything Ciarcia has ever > written...I don't > think he ever did anything with the 68020. this is probably it: http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=19038. 19042&coll=GUIDE&dl=GUIDE&CFID=28963802&CFTOKEN=27219755 I guess it was SC after all... ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. http://farechase.yahoo.com/ From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 6 18:14:19 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 19:14:19 -0400 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <46E06B02.7080201@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <759971.77362.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> <46E06B02.7080201@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <489223CD-22DC-482E-9F10-5F53F547E7A7@neurotica.com> On Sep 6, 2007, at 5:02 PM, woodelf wrote: >> Hmm. I don't think I'm in error, but I hope my >> previous post wasn't referring to this. I remember >> *something* appearing in BYTE w/a 68020. Rather into >> the later 80's... > > I kind of dumped Steve after he did his PC clone. :( Well his column in BYTE didn't last a whole lot longer than that. His magazine, however, is something that I'd skip meals in order to keep receiving. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Sep 6 18:22:32 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 17:22:32 -0600 Subject: power brownout logger? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46E08BB8.1060408@jetnet.ab.ca> Richard wrote: > Sorry if this is a little off-topic, but after hunting around on the > net I couldn't find the right search term to find what I'm looking > for. > > OK, my power company sucks. I have brownouts and power outages all > too frequently. Yet when I look at the statistics recorded by the > public utilities commission, it seems obvious to me that they aren't > showing an accurate record of what happens at my house. > > So I'm looking for a device (I'm fairly certain I've seen these > before) that I plug into a wall outlet and it keeps a log of voltage > sags, brownouts and outages. Then I can use this to build a > reliability profile of my power company as raw data to compete with > their b.s. line that its never their fault when my power constantly > sucks. > > Any suggestions? check here. http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/ From steve at radiorobots.com Thu Sep 6 18:23:13 2007 From: steve at radiorobots.com (Steve Stutman) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 19:23:13 -0400 Subject: power brownout logger? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46E08BE1.4040506@radiorobots.com> Richard wrote: >Sorry if this is a little off-topic, but after hunting around on the >net I couldn't find the right search term to find what I'm looking >for. > >OK, my power company sucks. I have brownouts and power outages all >too frequently. Yet when I look at the statistics recorded by the >public utilities commission, it seems obvious to me that they aren't >showing an accurate record of what happens at my house. > >So I'm looking for a device (I'm fairly certain I've seen these >before) that I plug into a wall outlet and it keeps a log of voltage >sags, brownouts and outages. Then I can use this to build a >reliability profile of my power company as raw data to compete with >their b.s. line that its never their fault when my power constantly >sucks. > >Any suggestions? > > Have heard of, but not used: http://www.duncaninstr.com/pqr2020.htm From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Sep 6 18:28:04 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 16:28:04 -0700 Subject: Dranetz (was power brownout logger?) Message-ID: <46E08D04.401@bitsavers.org> The industry-standard device is made by Dranetz and has been around in various forms for decades. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Sep 6 18:29:38 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 17:29:38 -0600 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <489223CD-22DC-482E-9F10-5F53F547E7A7@neurotica.com> References: <759971.77362.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> <46E06B02.7080201@jetnet.ab.ca> <489223CD-22DC-482E-9F10-5F53F547E7A7@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <46E08D62.60908@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > > Well his column in BYTE didn't last a whole lot longer than that. His > magazine, however, is something that I'd skip meals in order to keep > receiving. GRAND-MA ... Eat Grandson, Eat you are getting thin, Eat. > -Dave Well BYTE may have lasted longer, but then it was not SMALL SYSTEMS ... but Me the PeeCee. Ben alias Grandma PS. Grandma's favorite nine letter word: Eat-Eat-Eat ('~) From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Thu Sep 6 18:27:13 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 16:27:13 -0700 Subject: power brownout logger? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46E08CD1.6010606@msm.umr.edu> Richard wrote: >Sorry if this is a little off-topic, but after hunting around on the >net I couldn't find the right search term to find what I'm looking >for. > >OK, my power company sucks. I have brownouts and power outages all >too frequently. Yet when I look at the statistics recorded by the >public utilities commission, it seems obvious to me that they aren't >showing an accurate record of what happens at my house. > >So I'm looking for a device (I'm fairly certain I've seen these >before) that I plug into a wall outlet and it keeps a log of voltage >sags, brownouts and outages. Then I can use this to build a >reliability profile of my power company as raw data to compete with >their b.s. line that its never their fault when my power constantly >sucks. > >Any suggestions? > > Dranetz one we used at Microdata for problem analysis is on ebay right now Dranetz Disturbance Analyzer Model 606-3 280149645284 look for Dranetz anyway and they seem to come up farily often. Jim From caveguy at sbcglobal.net Thu Sep 6 18:30:03 2007 From: caveguy at sbcglobal.net (Bob Bradlee) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 19:30:03 -0400 Subject: power brownout logger? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <200709062330.l86NU5g9043310@billy.ezwind.net> I built one years ago using a Rustrak Recorder and a simple resistor bridge. http://tinyurl.com/yv24cs will give you a selection to choose from. When I had a showdown with the power company, their response was... if I cared that much about power I should have a USP and I might want to think about a backup genertaor. I ended up with both :) till later... The other Bob On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 17:09:50 -0600, Richard wrote: >Sorry if this is a little off-topic, but after hunting around on the >net I couldn't find the right search term to find what I'm looking >for. >OK, my power company sucks. I have brownouts and power outages all >too frequently. Yet when I look at the statistics recorded by the >public utilities commission, it seems obvious to me that they aren't >showing an accurate record of what happens at my house. >So I'm looking for a device (I'm fairly certain I've seen these >before) that I plug into a wall outlet and it keeps a log of voltage >sags, brownouts and outages. Then I can use this to build a >reliability profile of my power company as raw data to compete with >their b.s. line that its never their fault when my power constantly >sucks. >Any suggestions? >-- >"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download > > Legalize Adulthood! From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Sep 6 18:36:29 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 16:36:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: power brownout logger? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070906163308.P49526@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 6 Sep 2007, Richard wrote: > So I'm looking for a device (I'm fairly certain I've seen these > before) that I plug into a wall outlet and it keeps a log of voltage > sags, brownouts and outages. Then I can use this to build a > reliability profile of my power company as raw data to compete with > their b.s. line that its never their fault when my power constantly > sucks. Vertex (who were for a brief time authorized to distribute my XenoCopy) had such a device. It had a walwart and connected to a PC. Unfortunately, whenever there were power problems, it would crash and lose all the data. Therefore, it should only be used on systems with no power problems. Hmmm. wonder why it never caught on From mcguire at neurotica.com Thu Sep 6 18:36:41 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 19:36:41 -0400 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <46E08D62.60908@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <759971.77362.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> <46E06B02.7080201@jetnet.ab.ca> <489223CD-22DC-482E-9F10-5F53F547E7A7@neurotica.com> <46E08D62.60908@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Sep 6, 2007, at 7:29 PM, woodelf wrote: >> Well his column in BYTE didn't last a whole lot longer than >> that. His magazine, however, is something that I'd skip meals in >> order to keep receiving. > > GRAND-MA ... Eat Grandson, Eat you are getting thin, Eat. Oh, I am NOT getting thin. ;) > Well BYTE may have lasted longer, but then it was not SMALL > SYSTEMS ... but Me the PeeCee. > Ben alias Grandma > PS. Grandma's favorite nine letter word: Eat-Eat-Eat ('~) Yep. BYTE changed from a respectable technical magazine to a PC sales rag. Very sad. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From cclist at sydex.com Thu Sep 6 19:01:02 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 17:01:02 -0700 Subject: power brownout logger? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46E0324E.3989.20AF529D@cclist.sydex.com> On 6 Sep 2007 at 17:09, Richard wrote: > So I'm looking for a device (I'm fairly certain I've seen these > before) that I plug into a wall outlet and it keeps a log of voltage > sags, brownouts and outages. Then I can use this to build a > reliability profile of my power company as raw data to compete with > their b.s. line that its never their fault when my power constantly > sucks. And then what? You don't expect them to do anything about it, do you? It's funny--20 years ago, I could call the telco and have them adjust the EQ on the line gratis. Now their standard is "hear and be heard" and "can we sell you wireless service or Dish TV?". Of course, 20 years ago, the installation tech would come back a few days after hookup and ask how things were operating. It took almost 6 months before my power company would come out and adjust the taps on the distribution transformer. Mains voltage was about 135/270 volts most of the time. Incandescent bulbs didn't last long. Now it measures (let's see here) about 123/246. Close enough. Get a UPS if outages are a problem (generator if they last more than an hour or so) or a line conditioner if it's just sags and brownouts. I've got all three and they get used at least once per year. Complaining (unless you're a commercial customer with big bills) will generally only get you a bad case of hypertension. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Sep 6 19:21:23 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 17:21:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: power brownout logger? In-Reply-To: <46E0324E.3989.20AF529D@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46E0324E.3989.20AF529D@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <20070906171923.G49526@shell.lmi.net> On Thu, 6 Sep 2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > It took almost 6 months before my power company would come out and > adjust the taps on the distribution transformer. Mains voltage was > about 135/270 volts most of the time. Incandescent bulbs didn't last > long. Now it measures (let's see here) about 123/246. Close enough. PG&E (1986): "Oh, well voltages like that wouldn't hurt computers, only things like electric typewriters." But, they did install a recording monitor, and a few weeks later adjusted the voltage. > > Get a UPS if outages are a problem (generator if they last more than > an hour or so) or a line conditioner if it's just sags and brownouts. > I've got all three and they get used at least once per year. > > Complaining (unless you're a commercial customer with big bills) will > generally only get you a bad case of hypertension. > > Cheers, > Chuck > > > > -- Fred Cisin cisin at xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com PO Box 1236 (510) 558-9366 Berkeley, CA 94701-1236 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 19:22:01 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 19:22:01 -0500 Subject: power brownout logger? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9/6/07, Richard wrote: > OK, my power company sucks. I have brownouts and power outages all > too frequently. Yet when I look at the statistics recorded by the > public utilities commission, it seems obvious to me that they aren't > showing an accurate record of what happens at my house. Unsurprising. > So I'm looking for a device (I'm fairly certain I've seen these > before) that I plug into a wall outlet and it keeps a log of voltage > sags, brownouts and outages. > > Any suggestions? I've used this one... http://www.tequipment.net/FlukePowerQualityVOLT.html You'll need a Windows PC to run their EventView app. I'd always intended to stick a serial analyzer between the PC and the VR101S, but I didn't happen to have an HP 4951 on hand, and I never got around to building a 2-serial-port box with some serial tracing app. I _suspect_ it wouldn't be difficult to write a simple C app to dump the VR101S to a comma-separated-value file (as EventView will do upon request), but I didn't happen to take those thought to conclusion. -ethan From lproven at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 19:54:21 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 01:54:21 +0100 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <46E055BD.2040306@gmail.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709040343y6cb9cb3cs2cf7820740e4da8@mail.gmail.com> <868FBACC-B088-48FA-8CF4-7D16D04063B6@neurotica.com> <46DF00A3.7080307@gmail.com> <575131af0709060738m3691f4cdg32836ce9029ee76b@mail.gmail.com> <46E01645.1020906@gmail.com> <575131af0709061115g4614ce61v10ae1e639a4de198@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709061216k2383a944x72d7ee3576a26f9e@mail.gmail.com> <46E055BD.2040306@gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0709061754k4e9d76eag2892ac1cbce09988@mail.gmail.com> On 06/09/07, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Liam Proven wrote: > > But I'd submit that Unix and Windows have come vastly further from > > their origins than any mainframe OS. Multiple complete rewrites, > > complete changes of look, feel and capabilities, changes of platform, > > etc. > > You need to get yourself an old mainframe and a new one and play with > them to see the differences yourself. You'll never take my word for it. :?) I have a bit of a shortage of space, 3-phase power, cooling systems and so on. But if I could have afforded the freight, I'd have had that baby/36 thing that came up recently... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 20:02:27 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 02:02:27 +0100 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <46E05677.3060705@gmail.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <46E01645.1020906@gmail.com> <575131af0709061115g4614ce61v10ae1e639a4de198@mail.gmail.com> <200709061431.19614.pat@computer-refuge.org> <575131af0709061208o3053d0c8i1fff86d54bbe330f@mail.gmail.com> <46E05677.3060705@gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0709061802r2ea9135bg49a1383b7b2b8c71@mail.gmail.com> On 06/09/07, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Liam Proven wrote: > >> How do you count "number of users" on a payroll system? There's > >> probably only a couple of users, but it's the number of people who get > >> paid which matters... > > > > Is it? Even if none of those people access said computer in any way? > > Yes. Without a doubt. I think if we're trying to compare sales volumes, market shares or anything like that, how many people per dollar spent are affected or something might count. That would disproportionately favour big iron, I'm sure. > > I don't know any metric, off the top of my head, that attempts to > > measure systems' importance. What matters, what sets prices, is users, > > number of processors, number of systems, things like that. This is > > what determines sales charts and so on. > > But sales numbers are by no means the only measure of importance. If > sales numbers were the only measure, then every mainframe would be > replaced by a giant pile of PCs to take advantage of the economies of > scale. They tried that and failed miserably. Absolutely - and I'm delighted to see the big systems making something of a comeback. I mean, hey, if I wasn't interested in and keen on such things, I wouldn't have been looking for a VAX or indeed a job in OpenVMS support! :?) I'm delighted to learn that OpenVMS is still widely used and new systems are being put in, and that what I'd thought was an obsolete skill on my CV is attracting attention. But we do need some metric, some base of comparison, to talk about them meaningfully and be able to compare their relative success... no? > > Even if you measured the mainframes' /cost/ as an absolute, it would > > still be tiny compared to the hundreds of millions of PCs sold. > > > > Take the mainframe away, lots of people would be inconvenienced, yes. > > But the same is true of those millions of PCs. > > More people would be inconvenienced by the loss of, say, 5000 mainframes > than by the loss of 5000 PCs. That's very true, certainly. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 20:03:32 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 02:03:32 +0100 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <305BBFC6-261C-465A-8BCF-F89C0593D773@neurotica.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709040343y6cb9cb3cs2cf7820740e4da8@mail.gmail.com> <868FBACC-B088-48FA-8CF4-7D16D04063B6@neurotica.com> <46DF00A3.7080307@gmail.com> <575131af0709060738m3691f4cdg32836ce9029ee76b@mail.gmail.com> <46E01645.1020906@gmail.com> <575131af0709061115g4614ce61v10ae1e639a4de198@mail.gmail.com> <46E045E2.4040204@gmail.com> <575131af0709061129q237b0d57id5e2871eb94bcecd@mail.gmail.com> <305BBFC6-261C-465A-8BCF-F89C0593D773@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <575131af0709061803q5c58db86g232683e1481ffac5@mail.gmail.com> On 07/09/07, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Sep 6, 2007, at 2:29 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > > Most of the tedious IT management press that I read seems to consider > > the client/server model obsolete now and talks of at least 3-layer > > models instead. > > Well...the IT management press has never really had much of a clue > of how things are done in the real data processing world, so this is > not entirely surprising. Good point, well made. (An IT journalist writes. One of the worst freelance commissions I ever had was a piece on "knowledge management". It's such an empty phrase...) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 20:13:32 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 02:13:32 +0100 Subject: UX, AIX, FLAYX... In-Reply-To: <46E05FEF.4080900@mdrconsult.com> References: <49015.38430.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> <46E01645.1020906@gmail.com> <575131af0709061115g4614ce61v10ae1e639a4de198@mail.gmail.com> <200709061431.19614.pat@computer-refuge.org> <575131af0709061208o3053d0c8i1fff86d54bbe330f@mail.gmail.com> <46E05FEF.4080900@mdrconsult.com> Message-ID: <575131af0709061813yd238128l1b3d6f9996fe106c@mail.gmail.com> On 06/09/07, Doc Shipley wrote: > Liam Proven wrote: > > On 06/09/07, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > >> On Thursday 06 September 2007, Liam Proven wrote: > >>> Well, we could compare installs, or we could compare users. It's up > >>> to you. Either way, I'll warrant that its market share now is > >>> infinitisemal compared to what it once what. > >>> > > Even if you measured the mainframes' /cost/ as an absolute, it would > > still be tiny compared to the hundreds of millions of PCs sold. > > As it has been since roughly 1975. I'm really confused as to what > point you're trying to make. If the point is that Dell sells a metric > buttload more PC crap than IBM sells mainframes, I don't believe anyone > disagrees. If the point is that zSeries or s/390 systems are obsolete, > that point will never hold water. I never said they were obsolete, nor anything like it. I described them as "legacy systems" (or words to that effect) and said that they had little direct relevance to me personally or to me professionally, inasmuch as they're not relevant to any of my clients. And I stand by that. > A very good analogy would be a comparison of passenger-car sales to > diesel/electric locomotive sales. Trains have been around a hell of a > lot longer than passenger cars, and they still do exactly what they've > always done. And, for every locomotive engine sold today, there are > likely millions of cars sold. Not only does that not prove that trains > are obsolete, but the comparison is absolutely meaningless. Train sales versus car sales? Meaningless. Number of people travelling by train versus number travelling by car? Highly meaningful and relevant, especially vis-a-vis Greenhouse Effect/Global Warming discussions. > >>> Indeed, tho' I don't know a lot about mainframes, I have a feeling > >>> that most Linux/390 is deployed on z/VM - which is to say, in an LPAR > >>> under VM - rather than under z/OS, which is to say, MVS. Linux is > >>> probably actually displacing MVS - z/OS - rather than helping it. > > In fact, the instance of z/OS compared to z/VM is going *up*, not > down. Those "marginally interesting" p5 systems are scaling into the > low-end LPAR market, while a lot of high-end work, especially in > database ops, is scaling into the realm of single-image mainframes. I lose track of IBM's regular renaming of its enterprise lines. I thought the pSeries was basically RS/6000, versus zSeries being S/390 and iSeries = AS/400? (You might think "i" = "Intel" or "i" = "i386", but noooooo...) I think eSeries was the x86 stuff, wasn't it? But anyway, AIUI, pSeries - which is what I'm guessing you mean by p5 - was AIX boxes maybe running Linux maybe in a VM, whereas zSeries was S/390s, VM boxes running Linux maybe in an LPAR? > I've been following both branches of this thread (zOS market share, > and POWER vs 970FX), and I really have to ask: > > Do you have any actual experience with, first-hand knowledge of, or > formal training in *any* of IBM's non-x86 server platforms? I have worked on and supported early RT/PC systems (6150, 6151) under AIX, System/36 and several AS/400s - some in the last 5y. I've also worked on PDP/11, more VAXen than I can remember, Alphas, SunOS & Solaris on SPARC and other things. So, not all x86, but most of the non-x86 stuff has been Unix. So, yes, I have some experience beyond x86, where I've covered everything from Xenix to Netware to Concurrent CP/M and Concurrent DOS, outside of the vanilla world of Micros~1 operating systems. But, really, very little mainframe experience & not much with minis. I am a desktop and PC server type, really. I am still trying to broaden my experience. > Because everyone who has replied to you, including myself, work with > them daily. I'm probably the least knowledgeable, as I have very little > experience with the mainframes and none at all with AS/400 or i5. My > point is that Pat, Sridhar, William, and even I might know what we're > talking about. I don't doubt it; I did, when replying to Pat, but I had misunderstood him and I didn't have my own facts straight either. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 20:25:18 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 02:25:18 +0100 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <976567.90084.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> References: <46DFE04B.8010103@yahoo.co.uk> <976567.90084.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <575131af0709061825m313b7099jcc8e140c6493b0ba@mail.gmail.com> On 06/09/07, Chris M wrote: > > --- Jules Richardson > wrote: > > > I'm jumping in here mid-thread though so have lost > > some of the context - I > > can't think of a scenario where you plugged an > > entire machine (implying things > > like keyboard and video interfaces too) into an AT, > > but there were certainly > > all sorts of cards of the "CPU/memory/ROM/ISA > > interface" around onto which > > code could be offloaded. > > What was the purpose of offloading in this context? > Simply acceleration? No, I can't think of any "whole > puters" that could get plugged into a pc or at either, > just thought I'd ask. But keep in mind you don't > really need a distinct k/b and screen to do that. > Years later they were quite common. I think it was > Orange Micro or AST that came out w/286 Nubus cards > for the early Nubus equipped Macs. I never bothered to > get mine working, but I'm guessing the environment ran > in a window on the Mac desktop. I've seen and played with such things, and yes, it did. VirtualPC, done in hardware. Not very good graphics compatibility, generally - CGA was typical, and often it was just BIOS-compatible, not hardware or register level. > Nevertheless I think it would be very kewell to plug > a whole 'nother puter into something vintij. Very kewell. There was also the Golden Gate 386, a PC on a card for an Amiga: http://www.amiga-hardware.com/showhardware.cgi?HARDID=348 There was the Amiga Sidecar: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiga_Sidecar And the Siamese system, which linked a real Amiga to a PC via an ISA card to turn a PC into an Amiga-compatible: http://www.users.dircon.co.uk/~pnolan/siamese.html There was the QXL and QXL2, Sinclair QL-compatibles on an ISA card, using the PC as a host and for I/O: http://sinclairql.emuunlim.com/hardware.html ISTR an Amiga version of something like this but I can't recall any details, alas. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 20:30:55 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 02:30:55 +0100 Subject: 68k Mac development environments In-Reply-To: <46DE1639.6080400@msu.edu> References: <46DE1639.6080400@msu.edu> Message-ID: <575131af0709061830v20296713m7ba5a565dd8e3964@mail.gmail.com> On 05/09/07, Josh Dersch wrote: > Hi all -- > > I'm looking to do a bit of (simple) development targeting a 68k Mac (or > two, or three, or six...) and since I've never done any programming on a > Mac before I'm curious if anyone out there has any recommendations for a > development environment to use or to avoid. I'd prefer C/C++, but I'm > flexible :). I'd like to be able to run my code on a Mac Classic/SE (so > I need to be able to compile to 68000 code) but I'll be doing the > development itself on a IIfx. > > In case you're interested, I'm writing the software to build a clock of > sorts out of a set of six "classic" form factor Macs I have lying around > (two Classics, two SEs and two SE/30s). Each computer will display one > digit of the time, and will be synchronized over an Appletalk network to > keep the system times in sync. Or so goes the theory. Figure it'll be > a fun display to have set up, and a somewhat interesting use for some > otherwise-idle Macintosh hardware :). That is a really cool idea, which I like a lot. I am sure you're aware of it, but it instantly brought to mind the story of Jamie Zawinski's Dali clock and getting it running on various elderly Macs... http://www.jwz.org/gruntle/dali.html -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Sep 6 21:30:50 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 19:30:50 -0700 Subject: Dali Clock Message-ID: <46E0B7DA.3090605@bitsavers.org> > I am sure you're aware of it, but it instantly brought to mind the > story of Jamie Zawinski's Dali clock and from the URL: > The original (Steve Capps) version of Dali Clock Which is REALLY a port of the graphics from the XEROX ALTO Dali Clock. From scrappylaptop at yahoo.com Thu Sep 6 21:33:21 2007 From: scrappylaptop at yahoo.com (Scrappy Laptop) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 19:33:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Anyone collect VESA local bus stuff? In-Reply-To: <575131af0709061217j4bcd824al2b324458896c41d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <692872.98494.qm@web53601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Liam Proven wrote: On 06/09/07, Richard wrote: > I also have some VLB cards that are free for cost of shipping. I'm in > 84106. The starting price on my card is UK$0.01, which is as near as damnit free. If anyone actually wants it and it doesn't fetch at least a penny, they can have it for free too. :?) -- Yes, but will you throw in item 270163174907, the Cute furry snail cuddly toy? --------------------------------- Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Sep 6 21:36:40 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 19:36:40 -0700 Subject: A few cromemco floppy images Message-ID: <46E0B938.7030201@bitsavers.org> I bought several eBay lots of floppies, one of which purported to be cromix discs. It appears only one was a cromix disc, the rest appear to be cdos. I haven't looked at them in detail. About half of them have been read and are up under http://bitsavers.org/bits/Cromemco/floppy There are also what appear to be UCSD Pascal I.5 discs for CP/M up under http://bitsavers.org/bits/UCSD_Pascal/cpm From charlesmorris at hughes.net Thu Sep 6 21:42:21 2007 From: charlesmorris at hughes.net (Charles) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 21:42:21 -0500 Subject: Strange ADVENT error messages (OS/8) In-Reply-To: <200709062154.l86Lsu5f051839@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200709062154.l86Lsu5f051839@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Today I set out to debug my other (previously donated/defective) 16K core board in order to have a full 32K in my 8/A. The board was completely dead (0000 at all locations). A quick test program to read all locations in field 4-7 and a little scope work (it's handy to have a current probe) showed that one of the two paralleled X Read/Write drive transistors was defective and so that stack current pulse was only half amplitude. After replacing the transistor, powering back up and booting OS/8 from my RL02, a MEM command now showed "32K MEMORY!" :) Everything pretty much seems to be working just like before (such as LUNAR in PFOCAL, and various BASIC programs). But when I attempt to run ADVENT I get the following bizarre error messages: DIVIDE BY 0 ID("IL 0000 DIVIDE BY 0 ID("IL 0000 DIVIDE BY 0 ID:SIL 0357 DIVIDE BY 0 IE\/IM 0000 BAD ARG IE\/IM 0000 ID:SIL 0357 IANBII 0000 IEG8IM 0000 IEH?IM 0000 IE BIM 7240 IAVBII 0000 and then it either returns to the dot prompt or crashes. This disk image works perfectly (including ADVENT) on my laptop running SIMH. This looks to me like part of a file is corrupted (the presumed garbles are repeatable), but I don't know which one... any thoughts? I haven't run a test pattern on the "new" core board and wonder if it could be the source of this error. Rick M. are you out there? ;) thanks for any help. -Charles From lproven at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 22:56:35 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 04:56:35 +0100 Subject: Anyone collect VESA local bus stuff? In-Reply-To: <692872.98494.qm@web53601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <575131af0709061217j4bcd824al2b324458896c41d@mail.gmail.com> <692872.98494.qm@web53601.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <575131af0709062056r87103c8hfc4e821994f7782d@mail.gmail.com> On 07/09/07, Scrappy Laptop wrote: > > > Liam Proven wrote: On 06/09/07, Richard wrote: > > I also have some VLB cards that are free for cost of shipping. I'm in > > 84106. > > The starting price on my card is UK$0.01, which is as near as damnit > free. If anyone actually wants it and it doesn't fetch at least a > penny, they can have it for free too. :?) > > -- > > Yes, but will you throw in item 270163174907, the > Cute furry snail cuddly toy? Hey, if you're paying! ;?) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Thu Sep 6 22:57:51 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 04:57:51 +0100 Subject: Dali Clock In-Reply-To: <46E0B7DA.3090605@bitsavers.org> References: <46E0B7DA.3090605@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <575131af0709062057x523e331v92dc13756d9da8bd@mail.gmail.com> On 07/09/07, Al Kossow wrote: > > I am sure you're aware of it, but it instantly brought to mind the > > story of Jamie Zawinski's Dali clock > > and from the URL: > > > The original (Steve Capps) version of Dali Clock > > Which is REALLY a port of the graphics from the XEROX ALTO Dali Clock. To be fair, he does mention that... http://www.jwz.org/xdaliclock/ "This is a very old program! The original version was written some time in the early 1980s by Steve Capps for the Xerox Alto workstation. In 1984, he ported it to the original Macintosh 128K." -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Thu Sep 6 23:49:16 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 05:49:16 +0100 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? References: <46DFE04B.8010103@yahoo.co.uk><976567.90084.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> <575131af0709061825m313b7099jcc8e140c6493b0ba@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <001c01c7f10a$724cef00$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > There was the QXL and QXL2, Sinclair QL-compatibles on >an ISA card, using the PC as a host and for I/O.... > ISTR an Amiga version of something like this but I can't >recall any details, alas. I know that there exists an Atari ST on a PCI (or ISA?) card....don't know any more than that really (other that it's possibly from a German company) since I got out of the ST "scene" *many* moons ago. TTFN - Pete. From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Sep 7 00:58:21 2007 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 00:58:21 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Genuine DEC H8571-J MMJ adapters available Message-ID: I managed a buyout of genuine DEC H8571-J MMJ adapters awhile back and just got them in. They are brand new and are in factory sealed DEC packaging. I'm planning to list some on eBay and VCM, but I thought I'd post an offer to the list first. They are $25.00 each + postage and I can ship internationally. I also have about a dozen of the H8571-J work-alike adapter+cable kits that I've been building for $20.00 each, but I'll probably make some more once those are gone since they have been extremely popular. -Toth From cannings at earthlink.net Fri Sep 7 01:20:11 2007 From: cannings at earthlink.net (Steven Canning) Date: Thu, 6 Sep 2007 23:20:11 -0700 Subject: power brownout logger? References: <46E08BB8.1060408@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <000f01c7f117$2852b800$0201a8c0@hal9000> > Richard wrote: > > Sorry if this is a little off-topic, but after hunting around on the > > net I couldn't find the right search term to find what I'm looking > > for. > > > > OK, my power company sucks. I have brownouts and power outages all > > too frequently. Yet when I look at the statistics recorded by the > > public utilities commission, it seems obvious to me that they aren't > > showing an accurate record of what happens at my house. > > > > So I'm looking for a device (I'm fairly certain I've seen these > > before) that I plug into a wall outlet and it keeps a log of voltage > > sags, brownouts and outages. Then I can use this to build a > > reliability profile of my power company as raw data to compete with > > their b.s. line that its never their fault when my power constantly > > sucks. > > > > Any suggestions? > check here. > http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/ > > Even though that is a lovely device and I am certainly a fan of SpareTimeGizmos - that particular unit only monitors the frequency of the AC line and not any voltage monitoring. Best regards, Steven C. From robert at irrelevant.com Fri Sep 7 01:25:52 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 07:25:52 +0100 Subject: power brownout logger? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2f806cd70709062325q246d6949hebaea1d6b9534686@mail.gmail.com> On 07/09/07, Richard wrote: > > So I'm looking for a device (I'm fairly certain I've seen these > before) that I plug into a wall outlet and it keeps a log of voltage > sags, brownouts and outages. Then I can use this to build a > reliability profile of my power company as raw data to compete with > their b.s. line that its never their fault when my power constantly > sucks. > We used to have a device at a place I worked at about 18 years ago; size of a briefcase, with built in printer that output line conditions. Sorry no idea on make now.. What I have *here* though that would do the job is an old (APC) Smart UPS - it's got a not-quite-RS232 port on the back, and there's monitoring software I could run (on the protected PC!) that will show what's been going on. If anybody local (Manchester, UK) wants one, incidentally, I've got spares that just need new batteries, but there's no way you want to be paying for shipping one! From derschjo at msu.edu Thu Sep 6 16:56:57 2007 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 14:56:57 -0700 Subject: 68k Mac development environments In-Reply-To: <46DE1639.6080400@msu.edu> References: <46DE1639.6080400@msu.edu> Message-ID: <46E077A9.3070606@msu.edu> Thanks to all for the great suggestions -- I'll (hopefully) have some time this weekend to track down a few of the suggested packages and give them a shot. And I'll let you know when (if) I ever finish my little project :). Thanks again! - Josh Josh Dersch wrote: > Hi all -- > > I'm looking to do a bit of (simple) development targeting a 68k Mac > (or two, or three, or six...) and since I've never done any > programming on a Mac before I'm curious if anyone out there has any > recommendations for a development environment to use or to avoid. I'd > prefer C/C++, but I'm flexible :). I'd like to be able to run my code > on a Mac Classic/SE (so I need to be able to compile to 68000 code) > but I'll be doing the development itself on a IIfx. > > In case you're interested, I'm writing the software to build a clock > of sorts out of a set of six "classic" form factor Macs I have lying > around (two Classics, two SEs and two SE/30s). Each computer will > display one digit of the time, and will be synchronized over an > Appletalk network to keep the system times in sync. Or so goes the > theory. Figure it'll be a fun display to have set up, and a somewhat > interesting use for some otherwise-idle Macintosh hardware :). > > Thanks for any suggestions... > - Josh > > From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Thu Sep 6 18:43:05 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 19:43:05 -0400 Subject: power brownout logger? Message-ID: <0JNZ008WN0IA11I7@vms046.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: power brownout logger? > From: Fred Cisin > Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 16:36:29 -0700 (PDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On Thu, 6 Sep 2007, Richard wrote: >> So I'm looking for a device (I'm fairly certain I've seen these >> before) that I plug into a wall outlet and it keeps a log of voltage >> sags, brownouts and outages. Then I can use this to build a >> reliability profile of my power company as raw data to compete with >> their b.s. line that its never their fault when my power constantly >> sucks. > >Vertex (who were for a brief time authorized to distribute my XenoCopy) >had such a device. It had a walwart and connected to a PC. >Unfortunately, whenever there were power problems, it would crash and lose >all the data. Therefore, it should only be used on systems with no power >problems. Hmmm. wonder why it never caught on Company the name I remember is DRANITZ made a power logger that could report things liek brown or drop outs, length of disturbance and even things like common mode or neutral to protective ground currents. Handy device and like can be found at surplus equipment shops. Allison From derschjo at msu.edu Fri Sep 7 00:46:13 2007 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 06 Sep 2007 22:46:13 -0700 Subject: 68k Mac development environments In-Reply-To: <575131af0709061830v20296713m7ba5a565dd8e3964@mail.gmail.com> References: <46DE1639.6080400@msu.edu> <575131af0709061830v20296713m7ba5a565dd8e3964@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E0E5A5.1000205@msu.edu> Liam Proven wrote: > On 05/09/07, Josh Dersch wrote: > >> Hi all -- >> >> I'm looking to do a bit of (simple) development targeting a 68k Mac (or >> two, or three, or six...) and since I've never done any programming on a >> Mac before I'm curious if anyone out there has any recommendations for a >> development environment to use or to avoid. I'd prefer C/C++, but I'm >> flexible :). I'd like to be able to run my code on a Mac Classic/SE (so >> I need to be able to compile to 68000 code) but I'll be doing the >> development itself on a IIfx. >> >> In case you're interested, I'm writing the software to build a clock of >> sorts out of a set of six "classic" form factor Macs I have lying around >> (two Classics, two SEs and two SE/30s). Each computer will display one >> digit of the time, and will be synchronized over an Appletalk network to >> keep the system times in sync. Or so goes the theory. Figure it'll be >> a fun display to have set up, and a somewhat interesting use for some >> otherwise-idle Macintosh hardware :). >> > > That is a really cool idea, which I like a lot. > > I am sure you're aware of it, but it instantly brought to mind the > story of Jamie Zawinski's Dali clock and getting it running on various > elderly Macs... > > http://www.jwz.org/gruntle/dali.html > > Thanks for the vote of support :). I think most of the code should be dead simple but I'm not sure how the time-sync networking portion's going to go. I also need to pick up some serial Appletalk cabling; the SEs and the SE/30s have ethernet cards, but the Classics are unexpandable and thus do not. Maybe I can just find some more SEs to use :). I hope to get most of the work done this weekend, assuming nothing interrupts me... ha ha ha. And I have a copy of the original Mac Dali clock on one of my macs... somewhere :). - Josh From tothwolf at concentric.net Fri Sep 7 01:46:56 2007 From: tothwolf at concentric.net (Tothwolf) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 01:46:56 -0500 (CDT) Subject: power brownout logger? In-Reply-To: <2f806cd70709062325q246d6949hebaea1d6b9534686@mail.gmail.com> References: <2f806cd70709062325q246d6949hebaea1d6b9534686@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Sep 2007, Rob wrote: > On 07/09/07, Richard wrote: > >> So I'm looking for a device (I'm fairly certain I've seen these >> before) that I plug into a wall outlet and it keeps a log of voltage >> sags, brownouts and outages. Then I can use this to build a >> reliability profile of my power company as raw data to compete with >> their b.s. line that its never their fault when my power constantly >> sucks. > > We used to have a device at a place I worked at about 18 years ago; size > of a briefcase, with built in printer that output line conditions. > Sorry no idea on make now.. > > What I have *here* though that would do the job is an old (APC) Smart > UPS - it's got a not-quite-RS232 port on the back, and there's > monitoring software I could run (on the protected PC!) that will show > what's been going on. Be aware that the original SmartUPS series don't have full line monitoring even though they are in the "smartups" category. Their functions are somewhat more limited compared to the later SmartUPS series. The original SmartUPS 600 is a good example of these. It has a metal case (with a plastic front bezel over the metal), uses 2x 12V 7Ah batteries and has no battery service door/compartment. These are the type you have to disassemble and service very carefully due to the metal bracket that holds the batteries being right next to the live heatsinks (even when disconnected from mains). I had a little plastic tool that I made to disconnect the battery lead before removing the bracket. A plastic spudger tool would do the trick too. -Toth From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Sep 7 02:23:29 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 00:23:29 -0700 Subject: Wang 300 Calc References: <51ea77730709041544x4c1e5364n3bdf843f8ed6a9f2@mail.gmail.com> <46DF2960.A22F3A2B@cs.ubc.ca> <4675E04C-8996-4981-B33F-00C0114D3C2F@comcast.net> Message-ID: <46E0FC71.807BA08C@cs.ubc.ca> Paul Heller wrote: > > On Sep 5, 2007, at 4:10 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > > > I received two orphan 320K keyboard/display units a few years ago > > (no logic unit). > > ... > Cool idea. Did you find the hardware interface documented somewhere, > or did you reverse engineer it somehow? Was it something standard > like RS-232? Rick Bensene wrote: > >The keyboard/display units were simple -- WAY more simple than serial >RS-232. Logic levels were not TTL (remember, these machines were made >with all-transistor...no IC's anywhere either the keyboard/display >units, nor the electronics package). ... ... everything Rick said. (Yes, it was RE'd.) The level shifters just needed a few transistors and resistors - logic levels in the Wang are 0V and ?10V. Another nice thing about the Wang KDUs for this purpose is the key-caps are composed of snap-on clear plastic tops with a paper label underneath, so it's easy to print/relabel the entire keyboard to whatever calculator layout you like, rather than being stuck with either the Wang functions/semantics (which are a little unusual) or obtuse labels. For my desires, the target user interface was straightforward RPN style, essentially modeled on my little old HP-21. (On the other hand, who uses a calulator any longer? For me, anything more than one or a couple of multiplications or divisions, and it's straight to the spreadsheet app kept idling in the background.) From bernd at kopriva.de Fri Sep 7 02:58:51 2007 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 09:58:51 +0200 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <200709060131.10531.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20070907074521.A12DCFB778@mac-mini.local> Hi, i've collected some of those processor boards (all of them are ISA cards), among them - 2 different Opus SparcCards - Opus 32332 - Definicon DSI-32 (32032), DSI-780 (68020) - 2 different Microway NumberSmasher (Intel i860, one EISA) - Yarc ProTran (Transputer) - Zaiaz 933 (Clipper) : unfortunately no docs/software :( - QXL (68040) - Janus (68000, Atari) - various Z-80 boards Some of them include a complete Operating System (mostly UNIX), others have only some basic runtime environment, so you're mostly on your own (which makes more fun :)) There are at least two cards, that i really want to add to this collection : Steve Ciarcia's Trump Card (Z-8001) Siamese 68040 (Mac on a PCI card), developed by a UK company but i'm constantly looking for other cards as well Ciao Bernd On Thu, 06 Sep 2007 01:31:10 -0400, Roy J. Tellason wrote: >On Wednesday 05 September 2007 14:10, Chris M wrote: >> Here's a neato question: You mentioned coprocessor >> boards, and in fact some kinda sorta functioned that >> way (in some sense - stuff got offloaded to the mpu on >> the board I guess). But what were some early ancillary >> processor boards for the pc/at/?. That is, where you >> plugged a whole 'nother puter into your main puter, >> and got to run separate apps off of that? Hmmmmm >I'm remembering a couple of those in Byte, which I stopped reading sometime >in the eighties. A 32032? (I never could keep the numbers of that family >straight). A Z8000 for sure. Maybe a 68K of some sort. It's all very >fuzzy... >-- >Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and >ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can >be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" >- >Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James >M Dakin From bernd at kopriva.de Fri Sep 7 03:00:11 2007 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 10:00:11 +0200 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <759971.77362.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070907074641.B667AFB77A@mac-mini.local> On Thu, 6 Sep 2007 12:26:24 -0700 (PDT), Chris M wrote: >--- Dave McGuire wrote: >> Steve Ciarcia did a Z8000 card as a project in >> BYTE, called Trump >> Card. > Hmm. I don't think I'm in error, but I hope my >previous post wasn't referring to this. I remember >*something* appearing in BYTE w/a 68020. Rather into >the later 80's... I think, those were the Definicon DSI cards ... Ciao Bernd From bernd at kopriva.de Fri Sep 7 03:02:00 2007 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 10:02:00 +0200 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20070907074830.8F181FB77E@mac-mini.local> On Thu, 6 Sep 2007 10:22:22 -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > Steve Ciarcia did a Z8000 card as a project in BYTE, called Trump >Card. Ahhh, i'm looking for this one for quite some years now ... ... even Steve dropped his own inventory some years too early :( Ciao Bernd From bernd at kopriva.de Fri Sep 7 03:08:52 2007 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 10:08:52 +0200 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <001c01c7f10a$724cef00$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <20070907075522.4D93BFB785@mac-mini.local> On Fri, 7 Sep 2007 05:49:16 +0100, Ensor wrote: >Hi, > > There was the QXL and QXL2, Sinclair QL-compatibles on > >an ISA card, using the PC as a host and for I/O.... > > ISTR an Amiga version of something like this but I can't > >recall any details, alas. >I know that there exists an Atari ST on a PCI (or ISA?) card....don't know >any more than that really (other that it's possibly from a German company) >since I got out of the ST "scene" *many* moons ago. There's at least the Janus card, which implements a basic Atari ST on an ISA board ... ... i own the 68000 version, but it seems, there was an 68020 version available too. A DOS based driver is available, that handles all the I/O handling via the PC. I always wanted to get that driver ported to OS/2 (running Atari SW in a OS/2 PM-Window is definitely amazing :)), but never got any technical information ... Ciao Bernd From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Fri Sep 7 04:53:38 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 02:53:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Data General Nova 4 needs a new home Message-ID: I am helping to liquidate a collection of stuff belonging to a guy near Pasadena California. Among the items is a Data General Nova 4 and related peripherals. It includes the Nova 4 itself, a 25 megabyte hard drive, magtape drive, paper tape (I think), and assorted other fiddly bits. The whole thing is in a 6-foot-tall rack, so you'll need to pick it up yourself and get a couple friends to help. It also includes a decent amount of documentation and paper-tape software. This fellow got caught in the recent storm of mortgage forclosures and needs to clean out all the stuff he's not keeping (which is most of it) by the end of September: this month. So, this thing needs to go NOW. No reasonable offer refused. If you're interested, please email me at the below address or my yahoo address (cupricus) if that doesn't work for you. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 7 05:19:28 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 11:19:28 +0100 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <976567.90084.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> References: <976567.90084.qm@web61012.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46E125B0.9070504@yahoo.co.uk> Chris M wrote: > Nevertheless I think it would be very kewell to plug > a whole 'nother puter into something vintij. Very kewell. That's what RS-232 ports are for ;) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Fri Sep 7 05:23:57 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 11:23:57 +0100 Subject: D-shell sizes [was Re: Slightly rare Mac 512k with D(?) -25 connector] In-Reply-To: <46DF3857.12798.1CDEE823@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200709050342.l853gaMx098454@dewey.classiccmp.org>, <200709051604.MAA10529@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA>, <200709060113.20812.rtellason@verizon.net> <46DF3857.12798.1CDEE823@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46E126BD.9000205@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Anyone have one of the "gutless" Atari laser printers? Did it > connect to the ACSI port or to the printer port--or somewhere else? Hmm, Witchy has one, but I don't think he's currently subscribed after the list software got upset with him following an ISP change :-) Far as I know his re-subscription request is still pending (it's been that way for a couple of weeks - but then we know Jay's busy!) Hopefully he'll be back soon, although in the meantime you could always prod him via binarydinosaurs. From classiccmp.org at stellar.eclipse.co.uk Fri Sep 7 06:28:54 2007 From: classiccmp.org at stellar.eclipse.co.uk (Stroller) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 12:28:54 +0100 Subject: Next Question, re: "you can always rebuild the HD" In-Reply-To: References: <200709061414.l86EEnBR040396@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <77C75094-74DF-4CA1-95B1-45B1EE566922@stellar.eclipse.co.uk> On 6 Sep 2007, at 16:22, Mark Tapley wrote: > ... > As others have said, if a "me" password is set, you get the login > screen. If not, it logs you straight in as "me", which is not a > recommended way to run the machine (but if you've got boxed > versions, you can always rebuild the HD...) Hi there, What's the score with obtaining o/s installation disks for NeXT, please? I have a slab here which I obtained a while back but which (to my shame) I haven't gotten around to tinkering with. I believe it has a fresh o/s install, but I'd feel more comfortable if I knew I had all the facilities to do a reinstall if necessary. Is NeXTstep considered abandonware yet? Or should I be looking on eBay for the latest version? Cheers, Stroller. From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Fri Sep 7 07:11:24 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 08:11:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <46E0FC71.807BA08C@cs.ubc.ca> References: <51ea77730709041544x4c1e5364n3bdf843f8ed6a9f2@mail.gmail.com> <46DF2960.A22F3A2B@cs.ubc.ca> <4675E04C-8996-4981-B33F-00C0114D3C2F@comcast.net> <46E0FC71.807BA08C@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <200709071214.IAA03756@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> > (On the other hand, who uses a calulator any longer? For me, > anything more than one or a couple of multiplications or divisions, > and it's straight to the spreadsheet app kept idling in the > background.) Me, for example. First, calculators are a lot more physically portable than "the spreadsheet app kept idling in the background" (which in my case is rather different, but I'm using it to refer to any kind of calculator facility on a computer). I have calculators in parts of the house where there is no computer handy. Second, the user interface is, at least in my experience of calculators and programs that can serve for similar purposes, substantially better-designed for the task. Part of this is the physical portability, but not all; a general-purpose keyboard is not the best input device for calculator functionality. /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ploopster at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 08:56:13 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 09:56:13 -0400 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <200709071214.IAA03756@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> References: <51ea77730709041544x4c1e5364n3bdf843f8ed6a9f2@mail.gmail.com> <46DF2960.A22F3A2B@cs.ubc.ca> <4675E04C-8996-4981-B33F-00C0114D3C2F@comcast.net> <46E0FC71.807BA08C@cs.ubc.ca> <200709071214.IAA03756@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> Message-ID: <46E1587D.40702@gmail.com> der Mouse wrote: >> (On the other hand, who uses a calulator any longer? For me, >> anything more than one or a couple of multiplications or divisions, >> and it's straight to the spreadsheet app kept idling in the >> background.) > > Me, for example. > > First, calculators are a lot more physically portable than "the > spreadsheet app kept idling in the background" (which in my case is > rather different, but I'm using it to refer to any kind of calculator > facility on a computer). I have calculators in parts of the house > where there is no computer handy. > > Second, the user interface is, at least in my experience of calculators > and programs that can serve for similar purposes, substantially > better-designed for the task. Part of this is the physical > portability, but not all; a general-purpose keyboard is not the best > input device for calculator functionality. Third, it's a lot easier to do things in other number systems on a calculator than on a spreadsheet. That isn't to say it's impossible, it's just hard. Peace... Sridhar From lproven at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 09:44:54 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 15:44:54 +0100 Subject: 68k Mac development environments In-Reply-To: <46E0E5A5.1000205@msu.edu> References: <46DE1639.6080400@msu.edu> <575131af0709061830v20296713m7ba5a565dd8e3964@mail.gmail.com> <46E0E5A5.1000205@msu.edu> Message-ID: <575131af0709070744p7748463eq4df49d69ea8249d@mail.gmail.com> On 07/09/07, Josh Dersch wrote: > Liam Proven wrote: > > On 05/09/07, Josh Dersch wrote: > > > >> Hi all -- > >> > >> I'm looking to do a bit of (simple) development targeting a 68k Mac (or > >> two, or three, or six...) and since I've never done any programming on a > >> Mac before I'm curious if anyone out there has any recommendations for a > >> development environment to use or to avoid. I'd prefer C/C++, but I'm > >> flexible :). I'd like to be able to run my code on a Mac Classic/SE (so > >> I need to be able to compile to 68000 code) but I'll be doing the > >> development itself on a IIfx. > >> > >> In case you're interested, I'm writing the software to build a clock of > >> sorts out of a set of six "classic" form factor Macs I have lying around > >> (two Classics, two SEs and two SE/30s). Each computer will display one > >> digit of the time, and will be synchronized over an Appletalk network to > >> keep the system times in sync. Or so goes the theory. Figure it'll be > >> a fun display to have set up, and a somewhat interesting use for some > >> otherwise-idle Macintosh hardware :). > >> > > > > That is a really cool idea, which I like a lot. > > > > I am sure you're aware of it, but it instantly brought to mind the > > story of Jamie Zawinski's Dali clock and getting it running on various > > elderly Macs... > > > > http://www.jwz.org/gruntle/dali.html > > > > > Thanks for the vote of support :). I think most of the code should be > dead simple but I'm not sure how the time-sync networking portion's > going to go. I also need to pick up some serial Appletalk cabling; the > SEs and the SE/30s have ethernet cards, but the Classics are > unexpandable and thus do not. Maybe I can just find some more SEs to > use :). > > I hope to get most of the work done this weekend, assuming nothing > interrupts me... ha ha ha. > > And I have a copy of the original Mac Dali clock on one of my macs... > somewhere :). I have a great deal of LocalTalk & Farallon PhoneNet that you're welcome to - but I suspect it's on the wrong side of the Atlantic. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Sep 7 10:01:19 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 11:01:19 -0400 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <20070907074830.8F181FB77E@mac-mini.local> References: <20070907074830.8F181FB77E@mac-mini.local> Message-ID: On Sep 7, 2007, at 4:02 AM, Bernd Kopriva wrote: >> Steve Ciarcia did a Z8000 card as a project in BYTE, called Trump >> Card. > > Ahhh, > i'm looking for this one for quite some years now ... > ... even Steve dropped his own inventory some years too early :( Looking for the card?? Why not just build one? It was a construction article, after all. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Sep 7 10:03:21 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 11:03:21 -0400 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <46E0FC71.807BA08C@cs.ubc.ca> References: <51ea77730709041544x4c1e5364n3bdf843f8ed6a9f2@mail.gmail.com> <46DF2960.A22F3A2B@cs.ubc.ca> <4675E04C-8996-4981-B33F-00C0114D3C2F@comcast.net> <46E0FC71.807BA08C@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Sep 7, 2007, at 3:23 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > (On the other hand, who uses a calulator any longer? For me, > anything more > than one or a couple of multiplications or divisions, and it's > straight to the > spreadsheet app kept idling in the background.) I do. I use an HP-28S (for programming-related tasks) and an HP-41CV (for everything else) pretty much daily. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Sep 7 10:07:52 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 11:07:52 -0400 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <967887.97474.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> References: <967887.97474.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <596748FE-5D6F-4191-A3BA-581831253A64@neurotica.com> On Sep 6, 2007, at 7:13 PM, Chris M wrote: >> I have (I think) everything Ciarcia has ever >> written...I don't >> think he ever did anything with the 68020. > > this is probably it: > > http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=19038. > 19042&coll=GUIDE&dl=GUIDE&CFID=28963802&CFTOKEN=27219755 > > I guess it was SC after all... I assume you meant "wasn't"? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From bernd at kopriva.de Fri Sep 7 11:01:36 2007 From: bernd at kopriva.de (Bernd Kopriva) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 18:01:36 +0200 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20070907154806.4E268FB8E0@mac-mini.local> On Fri, 7 Sep 2007 11:01:19 -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: >On Sep 7, 2007, at 4:02 AM, Bernd Kopriva wrote: >>> Steve Ciarcia did a Z8000 card as a project in BYTE, called Trump >>> Card. >> >> Ahhh, >> i'm looking for this one for quite some years now ... >> ... even Steve dropped his own inventory some years too early :( > Looking for the card?? Why not just build one? It was a >construction article, after all. ... my fingers are all thumbs when it comes to hardware development. I'm more interested in "low level" programming Ciao Bernd From tshoppa at wmata.com Fri Sep 7 11:22:41 2007 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 12:22:41 -0400 Subject: Wang 300 Calc Message-ID: <46E142910200003700010E68@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> der Mouse wrote: > Second, the user interface is, at least in my experience of calculators > and programs that can serve for similar purposes, substantially > better-designed for the task. Part of this is the physical > portability, but not all; a general-purpose keyboard is not the best > input device for calculator functionality. I think older calculators actually do a better job than many modern calculators. With modern calculators, I feel like I do with modern DVD player remote controls: way too many buttons, way too many suboptions and menus to do what I actually want. Bit-mapped LCD screens with their ability to do menus and option lists are part of the evil. Go back to devices before them, and you find the core functionality (and all functionality for that matter) directly accessible. After them, everything is on a menu on a submenu on a ... You'd think there'd be fewer buttons with all the menus, but you'd be wrong! Of course I am often frustrated with modern digital scopes. Several of the better brands actually bring out onto knobs (well, they're probably really shaft encoders now) all the traditional analog knobs that should be on a scope. But other brands and lesser models put everything behind a menu. Arggghhh! As for the perfect user interface for VCR's, I think back to the first home units: to record a program in advance, you turn the channel knob to the channel you want, and turn some dials to set the timers for start and stop times. Wonderful! Here we are, decades later, and some of the low-end VCR's are actually approaching this functionality with one or two record buttons. But it's still not as good! Tim. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 7 12:07:40 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 10:07:40 -0700 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <20070907074521.A12DCFB778@mac-mini.local> References: <200709060131.10531.rtellason@verizon.net>, <20070907074521.A12DCFB778@mac-mini.local> Message-ID: <46E122EC.32036.245B394F@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Sep 2007 at 9:58, Bernd Kopriva wrote: > Steve Ciarcia's Trump Card (Z-8001) >From the article at http://www.dtweed.com/circuitcellar/trumpcrd.pdf It seems that the big advantage cited by Ciarcia was the ability to run a compile-in-place languge called TBASIC to gain performance. Given the prices on his cards, it hardly seems like a bargain. If one wanted to goof around with the Z8000 family as a coprocessor card, I'd be sore tempted to wire up something with a Z8002 and 64K of SRAM. You get the instructions without the expense and you don't have to deal with the (awful) Z8000 segmented mode. And relatively easy to do a lashup. Instead of Ciarcia's bucket, you could probably do with a single Z8036. Fit the whole thing on a "short" card. IMOHO, only Motorola and NS of all of the "16 bit" chip producers ever understood the importance of a continuous non-segmented memory space. Given the time of introduction, I consider the 68K to be a marvel of MPU design. Too bad IBM didn't adopt it for the PC. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 7 12:12:54 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 10:12:54 -0700 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <46E142910200003700010E68@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> References: <46E142910200003700010E68@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Message-ID: <46E12426.4843.246004E5@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Sep 2007 at 12:22, Tim Shoppa wrote: > I think older calculators actually do a better job than many modern > calculators. Same goes for a lot of things nowadays. Auto radios--while a passenger in a friend's new car, I asked how I would tune to a certain local FM station. His answer? "I don't know--I haven't figured out how to work the thing yet". I liked the old auto radios--two knobs; one for volume, the other for tuning and a bunch of preset buttons in the middle. Pull to set, push to switch. Cheers, Chuck From tpeters at mixcom.com Fri Sep 7 13:18:23 2007 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 13:18:23 -0500 Subject: Compupro Concurrent DOS 4.1 bug report Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070907131734.0d74b5f0@localhost> C O M P U P R O PRODUCT ASSURANCE TECHNICAL BULLETIN BULLETIN #39 6/3/86 ***************************************************************** SUBJECT: PATCHES TO BDOS.CON TO CORRECT BUGS DEALING WITH DOS MEDIA ON CONCURRENT DOS 4.1 SYSTEMS PRODUCTS AFFECTED: ALL SYSTEMS USING CONCURRENT DOS 4.1 WITH DOS MEDIA PROBLEM: Two bugs have been identified by Mickey Singer from Personalized Programming in the BDOS.CON module from Digital Research. These two patches deal with a bug in the LRU buffering with DOS media, and a record locking bug in subdirectories in DOS media. These two patches have been recommended by Personalized Programming, but are not official Digital Research patches. CompuPro is not currently installing these patches in the 4.1 releases of Concurrent DOS, but recommends that they be installed if using record locking with DOS media. SOLUTION: The solution to this problem is to patch the BDOS.CON module and then regenerate the CCPM.SYS file from this patched module. The procedure for this patch is listed below: PATCH PROCEDURE: Make a back-up copy of BDOS.CON before using SID86.CMD to make the following changes. User entries are underlined. 0A>SID86 SID86 1.0 #rBDOS.CON START END XXXX:0000 XXXX:5AFF #XCS CS 0000 YYYY (Where YYYY=XXXX+8) DS 0000 YYYY SS WXYZ . #LA3A,A3A XXXX:0A3A JNZ 0A59 (LRU BUG) #aA3A XXXX:0A3A JNZ A9A XXXX:0A3C . #L2189,218F XXXX:2189 MOV AX,[0BB9] (RECORD LOCKING BUG) XXXX:218C MOV [0882,AX XXXX:218F MOV AX,[08E7] PRODUCT ASSURANCE TECHME39.DOC 6/3/86 PAGE 1 of 2 #a2189 XXXX:2189 CALL 1EF4 XXXX:218C JZ 21A2 XXXX:218E NOP XXXX:218F NOP XXXX:2190 NOP XXXX:2191 NOP XXXX:2192 . #L1EF4,1EF8 XXXX:1EF4 MOV BX,[BX] XXXX:1EF6 OR BX,BX XXXX:1EF8 JZ 1F08 #A1EF4 XXXX:1EF4 MOV AX,[0BB9] XXXX:1EF7 MOV [0882],AX XXXX:1EFA OR AX,AX XXXX:1EFC MOV AX,[08E7] XXXX:1EFF RET XXXX:1F00 . #wBDOS.CON #^C 0A> Save this new corrected copy of BDOS.CON so that the next time you GENCCPM a system, you will use the corrected module. At this time, you can regenerate your CCPM.SYS file as described in your documentation. Any questions concerning this Technical Bulletin should be addressed to: Product Assurance Department CompuPro/Viasyn Corporation 26538 Danti Court Hayward, CA 94545-3999 PRODUCT ASSURANCE TECHME39.DOC 6/3/86 PAGE 2 of 2 ----- 190. [Internet] "Ist es eine Leitungsst?rung? Ist es ein Coredump? Nein, es ist sendmail.cf." --Kristian K?hntopp --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Sep 7 13:26:49 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 12:26:49 -0600 Subject: power brownout logger? In-Reply-To: <000f01c7f117$2852b800$0201a8c0@hal9000> References: <46E08BB8.1060408@jetnet.ab.ca> <000f01c7f117$2852b800$0201a8c0@hal9000> Message-ID: <46E197E9.6040402@jetnet.ab.ca> Steven Canning wrote: > Even though that is a lovely device and I am certainly a fan of > SpareTimeGizmos - that particular unit only monitors the frequency of the AC > line and not any voltage monitoring. Well I think that would be a useful addition. I knew he did something with AC but just not what. > Best regards, Steven C. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Sep 7 13:30:19 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 12:30:19 -0600 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <20070907074830.8F181FB77E@mac-mini.local> References: <20070907074830.8F181FB77E@mac-mini.local> Message-ID: <46E198BB.9010506@jetnet.ab.ca> Bernd Kopriva wrote: > Ahhh, > i'm looking for this one for quite some years now ... > ... even Steve dropped his own inventory some years too early :( That was the only Z8000 project I knew of. I wonder if it was do to the fact the Z8000 could of had lots of hardware bugs nobody could use it. > Ciao Bernd From rick at rickmurphy.net Fri Sep 7 13:30:44 2007 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 14:30:44 -0400 Subject: Strange ADVENT error messages (OS/8) In-Reply-To: References: <200709062154.l86Lsu5f051839@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <200709071830.l87IUilG016953@mail.itm-inst.com> At 10:42 PM 9/6/2007, you wrote: >Today I set out to debug my other (previously donated/defective) >16K core board in order to have a full 32K in my 8/A. The board >was completely dead (0000 at all locations). A quick test program >to read all locations in field 4-7 and a little scope work (it's >handy to have a current probe) showed that one of the two >paralleled X Read/Write drive transistors was defective and so >that stack current pulse was only half amplitude. After replacing >the transistor, powering back up and booting OS/8 from my RL02, a >MEM command now showed "32K MEMORY!" :) > >Everything pretty much seems to be working just like before (such >as LUNAR in PFOCAL, and various BASIC programs). But when I >attempt to run ADVENT I get the following bizarre error messages: > >DIVIDE BY 0 ID("IL 0000 >DIVIDE BY 0 ID("IL 0000 >DIVIDE BY 0 ID:SIL 0357 >DIVIDE BY 0 IE\/IM 0000 >BAD ARG IE\/IM 0000 >ID:SIL 0357 >IANBII 0000 >IEG8IM 0000 >IEH?IM 0000 >IE BIM 7240 >IAVBII 0000 > >and then it either returns to the dot prompt or crashes. That's pretty bad. How are you starting up ADVENT, and what version are you using? If it's an old ADVENT.SV, there's a chance it's gotten screwed up due to different environment. For the new version, I don't try to build a core image precisely for that reason. Your FRTS may also be outdated, old, etc. However, that's less likely given that the copy works OK under SIMH. >This looks to me like part of a file is corrupted (the presumed >garbles are repeatable), but I don't know which one... any >thoughts? I haven't run a test pattern on the "new" core board and >wonder if it could be the source of this error. Rick M. are you >out there? ;) It's also possible that the core module is still flaky. Might want to consider running the diags and see what happens. -Rick From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Sep 7 13:36:15 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 12:36:15 -0600 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: References: <20070907074830.8F181FB77E@mac-mini.local> Message-ID: <46E19A1F.6060104@jetnet.ab.ca> Dave McGuire wrote: > Looking for the card?? Why not just build one? It was a construction > article, after all. Since when have you seen a computer contruction article that you DID not have send alway for PCB layouts or firmware? > -Dave > From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Sep 7 13:36:54 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 14:36:54 -0400 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <46E198BB.9010506@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20070907074830.8F181FB77E@mac-mini.local> <46E198BB.9010506@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Sep 7, 2007, at 2:30 PM, woodelf wrote: >> i'm looking for this one for quite some years now ... >> ... even Steve dropped his own inventory some years too early :( > > That was the only Z8000 project I knew of. I wonder if it was > do to the fact the Z8000 could of had lots of hardware bugs nobody > could use it. That's funny. I used a Z8000-based system for quite a while. It certainly wasn't the case that *nobody* could use it. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Sep 7 13:39:01 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 12:39:01 -0600 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <46E122EC.32036.245B394F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200709060131.10531.rtellason@verizon.net>, <20070907074521.A12DCFB778@mac-mini.local> <46E122EC.32036.245B394F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46E19AC5.9060707@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > IMOHO, only Motorola and NS of all of the "16 bit" chip producers > ever understood the importance of a continuous non-segmented memory > space. Given the time of introduction, I consider the 68K to be a > marvel of MPU design. Too bad IBM didn't adopt it for the PC. Too bad IBM sold the WRONG PC. Some sort of LAB computer IBM made had a 68000 I think. > Cheers, > Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Sep 7 13:42:31 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 12:42:31 -0600 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <46E12426.4843.246004E5@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46E142910200003700010E68@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> <46E12426.4843.246004E5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46E19B97.4050503@jetnet.ab.ca> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Same goes for a lot of things nowadays. Auto radios--while a > passenger in a friend's new car, I asked how I would tune to a > certain local FM station. His answer? "I don't know--I haven't > figured out how to work the thing yet". Why bother ... they all play THUMP THUMP THUMP music. :( > I liked the old auto radios--two knobs; one for volume, the other for > tuning and a bunch of preset buttons in the middle. Pull to set, push > to switch. The same goes for microwaves, full of buttons. Commerical microwaves I have seen are different. One row of 10 buttons, 1 to 10 minutes. They don't have time to play the buttons, just use the product. > Cheers, > Chuck > > > . > From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri Sep 7 13:44:32 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 11:44:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <46E12426.4843.246004E5@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 7 Sep 2007 at 12:22, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > I think older calculators actually do a better job > than many modern > > calculators. > > Same goes for a lot of things nowadays. Auto > radios--while a > passenger in a friend's new car, I asked how I would > tune to a > certain local FM station. His answer? "I don't > know--I haven't > figured out how to work the thing yet". > > I liked the old auto radios--two knobs; one for > volume, the other for > tuning and a bunch of preset buttons in the middle. > Pull to set, push > to switch. Agreed. In fact, I'm pretty sure that most people (people here, especially) will agree that user interfaces on devices of all kinds has gone downhill. Clearly labeled and obvious buttons and controls are a thing of the past. Everything now needs to be an aesthetic design element. Cars, calculators, hi-fi equipment, it's all turned to this mess. I wonder just what happened. All-encompassing function knobs, menus for Bass and Treble, confusing symbols, unlabeled indicator lamps - it's a mess. Gone is the simplicity of a switch labeled "HEADLIGHTS", replaced with a confusing array of symbols on a knob. While they were at it, designers decided that it would be a good idea for power indicators to light up when something is off, and go out when it's on. Or how about a stereo with an animated "attract mode" when off? I could go on and on, but I'm sure everyone gets the point. There was a time when you could walk up to any radio/hi-fi/television/car and instantly be able to operate it. Not anymore. But - remember - all these craptacular interfaces are cheaper to build, think of that. Yay. And... this is drifting off topic too... -Ian From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 13:48:02 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 14:48:02 -0400 Subject: ST-412 Message-ID: Anyone need an ST-412 HDD? I am pretty sure this one works. Cheap! Five bucks? Ten bucks? I think this should fit in a Flat Rate box, so shipping anywhere US should be about 9 or 10 bucks as well. -- Will From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Fri Sep 7 13:45:16 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 14:45:16 -0400 Subject: Does anyone use RT-11? Message-ID: <46E19C3C.5060709@compsys.to> Just as there were inquiries about using PDP-11 hardware, I thought that it might be helpful to know if anyone uses RT-11 and for what purpose. For myself, I have the addiction of fixing RT-11 bugs in the operating system as well as making enhancements. Ten years ago, I even produced most of the Y2K changes that were required for V05.04G of RT-11 for a customer who could not wait for Mentec. Eventually, I want to produce a set of Y9K changes to allow years up to 9999 to be used. Other enhancements include SL: and a new pseudo device driver, SB: (SymBolic device list device driver) which is similar to the VMS SNL (Symbolic Name List), but operates only on a device which supports a directory as does PATH for DOS. At one point it was named PH: for Path Handler, but SB: seems a better choice. Even more reasonable would be Symbolic device List or SL:, but SL: is already used by the Single Line editor (or the DOSKEY interface). Symbolic Debugger is also taken for SD: Lately, I mostly use Ersatz-11 and I have been making changes and enhancements to the HD: (Hypothetical Disk) device driver that John Wilson originally wrote in 1995. The challenge I set myself was to produce a VM(X).SYS equivalent that is: (a) Faster - about 3 times as fast (b) Higher capacity - a full 65536 blocks vs 8192 blocks (c) Smaller number of LOADed words in low memory (d) Support the command SET VM: [NO]WRITE plus a number of other useful features. Well, one idea led to another and other versions are also being tested which support 8 units and eventually 64 units (with monitors that have that support as well). If there is any interest, eventually a translation table similar to the one used by DU(X).SYS is possible. In addition, full 32 bit block number support will be done eventually which will allow 2 TeraByte disk drives. The other HD: related code that is also interesting is the ability to interface the HD: device directly from user code WITHOUT a device driver. So while the HD: is about twice as fast as DU(X).SYS when a device driver HD(X).SYS is used, the direct user interface (which avoids all the overhead of a system EMT call) is about twice as fast again. For this user interface, 32 bit blocks numbers are already possible. Under a Windows (YEK !! Double YEK) operating system or even just DOS, all disk access is completed before the HD: returns control to the RT-11 operating system. Consequently, no interrupts are required. I am not sure about Linux operation, but if anyone does know, please advise. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Fri Sep 7 13:46:06 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 14:46:06 -0400 Subject: Reviving DEC RX01 power supply In-Reply-To: References: <1188959627.46de158b81aa3@www.jblaser.org> Message-ID: <46E19C6E.8070300@compsys.to> >Ethan Dicks wrote: >My first -11 hard drive controller was an RLV11 that ran me about >$100. I dropped into a BA-11N w/KDF11, DLV11J, MSV11-mumble (M8044), >and LPV11 that all ran me $300 in 1986. I borrowed a VT220, an RL01, >and an LA180 from my main PDP-8/a, I made a living on that -11 for >almost two years. I still have it in a slightly improved form (I >upgraded the backplane to 22-bit and threw more memory into it). I >ran RT-11 v5.something on it for years (5.3?) Very nice system, but >so is the OP's 11/03 w/floppy. > Jerome Fine replies: I seem to remember that my first (i.e. not the system I used at work sites) was a VT103 with a PDP-11/23 inside and a DSD 880/8 floppy / hard drive combo. The latter was an 8 MB RL01 emulation combined with RX02 (actually RX03 although DEC never released their version) 1/2 MB SSDD 8" floppy emulation. I seem to remember V04.00 of RT-11. The floppy served as the backup, but I found the floppy far too slow to be truly useful as compared with the hard drive. Plus, with only the single floppy drive, it would not have been possible to save files, etc. >RT-11 works fine on a floppy-only system. It works *great* on a >hard-disk system. It was one of my favorite environments before I >managed to scrape together my first UNIX system a few years later. > I agree that if someone had a dual RX02 floppy system without a hard drive, useful work could be done but much more slowly. I also seem to remember that the VT103 backplane was upgraded to 22 bit memory support and a Sigma RQD11-B MFM controller was briefly added to the backplane to support a Seagate 10 MB hard drive (was actually an old DEC RD51) that somehow was squeezed in beside the power supply. At one even shorter period of time, the VT103 backplane had a PDP-11/73 quad CPU, 4 MB of memory, DHV11 and a Sigma RQD11-EC controller that supported FOUR * 600 MB ESDI Hitachi hard drives although it was essential that all of the hard drives were placed OUTSIDE the VT103 since each required its own fan and all of the hard drives and their fans also used a separate external power supply. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 13:56:42 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 13:56:42 -0500 Subject: ST-412 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9/7/07, William Donzelli wrote: > Anyone need an ST-412 HDD? I am pretty sure this one works. Cheap! > Five bucks? Ten bucks? I think this should fit in a Flat Rate box, so > shipping anywhere US should be about 9 or 10 bucks as well. As an incentive, if anyone out there has a Rainbow or a MicroVAX I or a DEC Professional, this drive is also known as an RD51 and will work, unmodified, in a variety of DEC machines. -ethan P.S. - for the pedantic, all ST-506/ST-412 drives need to be formatted to their specific host controller - that doesn't count as "modification"; certainly not in the sense of needing to add the R7 jumper to make a Micropolis 1335 into an RD53. From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Sep 7 13:58:23 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 14:58:23 -0400 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <46E19A1F.6060104@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20070907074830.8F181FB77E@mac-mini.local> <46E19A1F.6060104@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <5CF849D5-8ACB-4D40-B90A-9D8EDB399D86@neurotica.com> On Sep 7, 2007, at 2:36 PM, woodelf wrote: >> Looking for the card?? Why not just build one? It was a >> construction article, after all. > Since when have you seen a computer contruction article that > you DID not have send alway for PCB layouts or firmware? Send away for them? I've not seen many for which that was a requirement. Indeed, the Trump Card schematics are present in the article (the prototype was wire-wrapped)...The code has got to be floating around somewhere. The point is...if one were suitably motivated to construct a Trump Card, it certainly wouldn't be impractical to attempt. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 14:10:17 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 14:10:17 -0500 Subject: Does anyone use RT-11? In-Reply-To: <46E19C3C.5060709@compsys.to> References: <46E19C3C.5060709@compsys.to> Message-ID: On 9/7/07, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > Just as there were inquiries about using PDP-11 hardware, I thought > that it might be helpful to know if anyone uses RT-11 and for what > purpose. Twenty years ago, I wrote a custom Computer-aided Instruction (CAI) application for an PDP-11-based ultrasonic parts inspection machine in MACRO-11 for RT-11. Besides having to carve up multi-megabyte files full of scan nybbles and throw them up onto a high-res screen with lecture text, then later administrating automated tests of the material, I also had to tweak the ultrasonic scanning machine itself, a bit of a nightmare since all the non-MACRO code was written in PASCAL. Since then, I've mostly used RT-11 for recreation and hardware checkout. If I can slap a CPU, some memory, a serial port and a disk controller together and boot it up to a '.', it tells me that I probably have a pile of working hardware. I haven't written any apps for RT-11 since 1989, but I have always wanted to fire up PLANETFALL or ZORK I on it, since long, long ago, before I owned a machine that could run Zork, I saw Planetfall on 8" floppy, hanging up in the Digital store in downtown Columbus. It's a bit of a silly play-time project, considering how many machines I now own that run a Z-machine, but I've never gotten around to running a Z-machine on a PDP-11. I know it's not hard; I just haven't whittled down the project pile to that depth yet. I probably split my PDP-11 time between RT-11 and 2BSD, having a fondness and appreciation for both. If I had a PDP-11 with mass storage that was smaller than a Professional or a BA23, I'd probably have more time to fiddle with hardware, but lately, I seem to spend more time in simh than using the real thing. I love the hardware, and I have lots of it, but it's difficult to pack one more machine into my office than I have right now. -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Sep 7 14:16:50 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 12:16:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <46E142910200003700010E68@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> References: <46E142910200003700010E68@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> Message-ID: <20070907121429.P90651@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 7 Sep 2007, Tim Shoppa wrote: > As for the perfect user interface for VCR's, I think back to the > first home units: to record a program in advance, you turn the > channel knob to the channel you want, and turn some dials to > set the timers for start and stop times. Wonderful! Here we A REAL video recorder doesn't need to have a timer. If you want timer, then connect the JACK for the remote control to an unused port on your computer. A WIRED remote control can always be found by following the wire. From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Fri Sep 7 15:22:56 2007 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 14:22:56 -0600 Subject: TCP/IP testing, round 3 ... Message-ID: <46E1B320.5050009@brutman.com> I'm looking for a few people to connect to a small 'server' I am running to help me test my TCP/IP for DOS. It can be reached at: telnet 24.159.200.228 2023 It does not do telnet parameter negotiation so echo and line editing are dependent upon your particular telnet client. I've found that the standard telnet client in Win XP does local echoing, Win 2K does not do local echoing, and Linux does local echoing with local line editing. If something doesn't work just try it again without any extra whitespace chars or backspaces. For the sake of traffic on the list, please use discretion when replying to this - obviously stuff of general interest should be posted publicly .. Some background on the project: I've been writing my own TCP/IP for DOS machines since around Nov 2005. Everything except the packet drivers that I am using is new code that I wrote for this project. I was busy with other things the last eight months and I'm finally getting back to working on it. (The last round of testing was in late Dec.) The development machine is a 386-40 using Turbo C++ 3.0 for DOS. The code runs reasonably well on my PCjr. Eventually I want to do a telnet BBS. A Linux box is tracing incoming and outgoing traffic in case I need to debug something that crops up. The test is running on the 386 today because I am doing extensive tracing in the code as well. This particular test code accepts connections from up to 9 clients and lets you play around with some simple commands. The idea is to exercise the TCP/IP code with multiple concurrent connections, so please excuse the simple interface. Thanks! Mike From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 14:20:34 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 14:20:34 -0500 Subject: VT103 (was Re: Reviving DEC RX01 power supply) Message-ID: On 9/7/07, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Ethan Dicks wrote: > > >My first -11 hard drive controller was an RLV11 that ran me about > >$100. I dropped into a BA-11N w/KDF11, DLV11J, MSV11-mumble (M8044), > >and LPV11 that all ran me $300 in 1986... > > > Jerome Fine replies: > > I seem to remember that my first... was > a VT103 with a PDP-11/23 inside and a DSD 880/8 floppy / hard drive combo. > The latter was an 8 MB RL01 emulation combined with RX02 (actually RX03 > although DEC never released their version) 1/2 MB SSDD 8" floppy emulation. Nice rig. > At one even shorter period of time, the VT103 backplane had a > PDP-11/73 quad CPU, 4 MB of memory, DHV11 and a Sigma RQD11-EC > controller that supported FOUR * 600 MB ESDI Hitachi hard drives > although it was essential that all of the hard drives were placed > OUTSIDE the VT103 since each required its own fan and all of the > hard drives and their fans also used a separate external power > supply. Wow... that's a lotta stuff for a VT103. I have a VT103 up in the attic. I _might_ be able to squeeze a VT100 case somewhere in my office... these days, though, I'd go with a 3.5" SCSI drive and a Qbus SCSI controller. The real question is, what to choose for CPU and memory. I could easily pull a KDF11B from the shelf, add a meg or two on a quad-height board, and between those three boards, have a running system. What I think I'd prefer, though, is something with a KDJ11. So presuming one is starting from the assumption that you have a VT103 and a Qbus SCSI controller, what are good choices for the remainder of the system? One can assume that 1MB is minimum, but 4MB wouldn't be unwarranted. I kinda fell off the PDP-11 cart in the KDJ11 era, so I'm not as conversant with what's out there, but ISTR that there's the dual-height KDJ11A, and there must be a quad-height KDJ11 of some flavor, with a variety of common accessories, but I couldn't quote chapter and verse. I have an 11/53-level KDJ11 board from a DEC comms controller, with -11 ROMs installed, but it still has S-box handles, and only has, IIRC, 1MB on it. I'm thinking that any sort of 11/83 or 11/93 board is probably going to be priced out of my range, but I'm willing to entertain the idea. I really don't _need_ the speed of an 11/83 or 11/93, but 4MB on board is attractive (if I've got my boards right). Anyone else have any ideas on how to trick out a VT103? -ethan From lproven at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 14:33:17 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 20:33:17 +0100 Subject: Compupro Concurrent DOS 4.1 bug report In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070907131734.0d74b5f0@localhost> References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070907131734.0d74b5f0@localhost> Message-ID: <575131af0709071233k5231ea99yea97dbd1ab7753d@mail.gmail.com> On 07/09/07, Tom Peters wrote: > 190. [Internet] "Ist es eine Leitungsst?rung? Ist es ein Coredump? Nein, es > ist > sendmail.cf." --Kristian K?hntopp [Laughter] I had to ask my German lodger for what "leitungstoering" meant, mind. Translation: "Is it line noise? Is it a coredump? No, it's sendmail.cf." :?) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From legalize at xmission.com Fri Sep 7 14:34:44 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 13:34:44 -0600 Subject: VT103 (was Re: Reviving DEC RX01 power supply) In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 07 Sep 2007 14:20:34 -0500. Message-ID: In article , "Ethan Dicks" writes: > Anyone else have any ideas on how to trick out a VT103? I'd also like to hear them since I have a VT103 :) -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 14:36:08 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 14:36:08 -0500 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <46E19A1F.6060104@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20070907074830.8F181FB77E@mac-mini.local> <46E19A1F.6060104@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 9/7/07, woodelf wrote: > Dave McGuire wrote: > > > Looking for the card?? Why not just build one? It was a construction > > article, after all. > Since when have you seen a computer contruction article that > you DID not have send alway for PCB layouts or firmware? The mid-1970s? I have a Popular Electronics with a 2/3ds-size photo-ready image of the Elf II PCB. I regularly contemplate attempting to make that one, but feel I need more PCB etching experience before trying a board that large. Of course, these days, it's easy just to recapture the schematic and make a new layout, as people have done with that exact design already. I just look at the hand-taped swirls of traces and feel that it'd be nice design to tackle. Lotsa tiny holes to drill (and stuff with bridging wires) though. But your point is taken - after that era, most designs were writeups with an address to send to for professional-quality PCBs. -ethan From tpeters at mixcom.com Fri Sep 7 15:00:50 2007 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 15:00:50 -0500 Subject: Compupro Concurrent DOS 4.1 bug report In-Reply-To: <575131af0709071233k5231ea99yea97dbd1ab7753d@mail.gmail.com > References: <5.1.0.14.2.20070907131734.0d74b5f0@localhost> <5.1.0.14.2.20070907131734.0d74b5f0@localhost> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070907150001.0da2cec8@localhost> At 08:33 PM 9/7/2007 +0100, you wrote: >On 07/09/07, Tom Peters wrote: > > 190. [Internet] "Ist es eine Leitungsst?rung? Ist es ein Coredump? Nein, es > > ist > > sendmail.cf." --Kristian K?hntopp > >[Laughter] > >I had to ask my German lodger for what "leitungstoering" meant, mind. > >Translation: >"Is it line noise? Is it a coredump? No, it's sendmail.cf." :?) Glad to provide a chuckle. My file of one-liners is up to about 1200 quotes now. ----- 205. [Philosophy] Life: a sexually transmitted disease that is fatal. --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 7 15:21:45 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 13:21:45 -0700 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <46E19AC5.9060707@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <200709060131.10531.rtellason@verizon.net>, <46E122EC.32036.245B394F@cclist.sydex.com>, <46E19AC5.9060707@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <46E15069.20730.250CEC27@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Sep 2007 at 12:39, woodelf wrote: > Too bad IBM sold the WRONG PC. Some sort of LAB computer IBM made > had a 68000 I think. Ah, the IBM CS9000 "instrument computer". It was announced shortly before the 5150 and had a few people speculating that the 5150 would be 68K based also. Sadly, no: http://www.columbia.edu/acis/history/cs9000.html But the aesthetics were terrible... Cheers, Chuck From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Sep 7 16:11:14 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 14:11:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Does anyone use RT-11? In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Sep 07, 2007 02:10:17 PM Message-ID: <200709072111.l87LBEaQ023277@onyx.spiritone.com> > I haven't written any apps for RT-11 since 1989, but I have always > wanted to fire up PLANETFALL or ZORK I on it, since long, long ago, > before I owned a machine that could run Zork, I saw Planetfall on 8" > floppy, hanging up in the Digital store in downtown Columbus. It's a > bit of a silly play-time project, considering how many machines I now > own that run a Z-machine, but I've never gotten around to running a > Z-machine on a PDP-11. I know it's not hard; I just haven't whittled > down the project pile to that depth yet. You do realize that a Z-machine exists for RT-11, don't you? Johnny wrote it a few years back (~2001 probably), Megan ported it, and some work was done a couple years ago to get the latest version building on RT-11 again. Zane From mtapley at swri.edu Fri Sep 7 16:31:56 2007 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Mark Tapley) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 16:31:56 -0500 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 49, Issue 21 In-Reply-To: <200709071510.l87FAF1x064399@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200709071510.l87FAF1x064399@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: At 10:10 -0500 9/7/07, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: >Hi there, > >What's the score with obtaining o/s installation disks for NeXT, >please? I have a slab here which I obtained a while back but which >(to my shame) I haven't gotten around to tinkering with. I believe it >has a fresh o/s install, but I'd feel more comfortable if I knew I >had all the facilities to do a reinstall if necessary. > >Is NeXTstep considered abandonware yet? Or should I be looking on >eBay for the latest version? > >Cheers, > >Stroller. Vendors I know about: http://www.blackholeinc.com/specials/blackhardware.shtml http://www.channelu.com/Turbo/NeXT/software.html Have dealt with the latter, he's a good guy. Don't know about the former. EBay is not a bad bet. For an early cube or slab, be sure you get the boot floppy with the media, or if not let me know and I (?) think I can write one for you. You'll also need the correct cable and a 512-byte SCSI CD drive; a FAQ that should help with that is pointed to from: http://www.museplan.com/projects/next-mac-faq/next-mac-faq.html Look down to the Q: Where can I find the main NextStep FAQ?, follow that link, go to section 5.6. Hope this helps. -- - Mark, 210-379-4635 ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Large Asteroids headed toward planets inhabited by beings that don't have technology adequate to stop them: Think of it as Evolution in Fast-Forward. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 16:51:00 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 16:51:00 -0500 Subject: Does anyone use RT-11? In-Reply-To: <200709072111.l87LBEaQ023277@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200709072111.l87LBEaQ023277@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: On 9/7/07, Zane H. Healy wrote: > You do realize that a Z-machine exists for RT-11, don't you? Johnny wrote > it a few years back (~2001 probably), Megan ported it, and some work was > done a couple years ago to get the latest version building on RT-11 again. Yes. I am entirely aware of that effort and have a copy already. I was more thinking of running the classic (c. 1984) Z-machine on contemporary hardware, for the sole fact that at that time, I had a PDP-8, but lusted after a PDP-11 (I bought my first one in 1986, the $300 I wrote about recently). This is entirely a nostalgia thing. Nothing practical about it. -ethan From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Sep 7 17:07:03 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 15:07:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Does anyone use RT-11? In-Reply-To: from "Ethan Dicks" at Sep 07, 2007 04:51:00 PM Message-ID: <200709072207.l87M73wR024741@onyx.spiritone.com> > Yes. I am entirely aware of that effort and have a copy already. I > was more thinking of running the classic (c. 1984) Z-machine on > contemporary hardware, for the sole fact that at that time, I had a > PDP-8, but lusted after a PDP-11 (I bought my first one in 1986, the > $300 I wrote about recently). > > This is entirely a nostalgia thing. Nothing practical about it. > > -ethan That is understandable. Though good luck finding a copy. I'm not aware of *anyone* that has a copy, in fact you're about the only one that has even seen a copy. :^( Zane From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 17:15:49 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 17:15:49 -0500 Subject: Does anyone use RT-11? In-Reply-To: <200709072207.l87M73wR024741@onyx.spiritone.com> References: <200709072207.l87M73wR024741@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: On 9/7/07, Zane H. Healy wrote: > That is understandable. Though good luck finding a copy. I'm not aware of > *anyone* that has a copy, in fact you're about the only one that has even > seen a copy. :^( I _may_ have a copy of a .SAV file of an RT-11 Z-machine somewhere in an ancient e-mail or an archive somewhere on a disk, but I am reasonably certain that I do not have a whole-game disk image. I really did see a commercial copy, printed package and all, hanging on a peg. It's one of those things that I'm regretting that I didn't purchase, but, as I said, at the time, I only had a 4K PDP-8, and merely lusted after a *POWERFUL* PDP-11 ;-) Another one my dream projects is a 12-bit Z-machine. There are a variety of technical reasons that make it a difficult project, so I am mired in the woolgathering stage. :-( -ethan From legalize at xmission.com Fri Sep 7 17:46:03 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 16:46:03 -0600 Subject: free for pickup: VAX 11/750 Message-ID: I received this email today offering a VAX 11/750. I have no connection with the current owner. I have set the Reply-To for this message to the owner. Hopefully someone can rescue this. -- Richard =-=-=-=-=-=-= Original email We have a Digital VAX 11750 in storage that we need to find a home for. We have never used this as it was acquired by us when we purchased another company and was simply put into storage at that time. Do you have any idea if anyone would be interested in this? I would hate to see it hauled to the garbage if there is someone out there that would like to have it. Thank you for any help that you may provide. Regards, Lori G. Lee Quintek Technologies, Inc. 208-847-3618 208-847-3619 Fax llee at quintek.com www.quintek.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 17:50:29 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 17:50:29 -0500 Subject: free for pickup: VAX 11/750 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9/7/07, Richard wrote: > I received this email today offering a VAX 11/750. I have no > connection with the current owner. I have set the Reply-To for this > message to the owner. Hopefully someone can rescue this. > > -- Richard > > =-=-=-=-=-=-= Original email > > We have a Digital VAX 11750 in storage that we need to find a home for. > We have never used this as it was acquired by us when we purchased another > company and was simply put into storage at that time. Do you have any > idea if anyone would be interested in this? I would hate to see it hauled > to the garbage if there is someone out there that would like to have it. > > > Regards, > > Lori G. Lee > Quintek Technologies, Inc. > > 208-847-3618 > 208-847-3619 Fax > llee at quintek.com Idaho?!? Wow... hopefully someone is close enough to pick this up. The 11/750 is a *niiiice* machine. I can't believe there's still a NOS 11/750 out there, but it'll be a sweet acquisition for someone. -ethan From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Sep 7 17:50:44 2007 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 18:50:44 -0400 Subject: Cromemco Dazzler troubleshooting... Message-ID: Hi, I have a Dazzler board set that _almost_ works. Gray scale looks good and color looks OK, except that it's gray too. The shades of gray change when I flip the color bit at I/O address 0x0F and the red and green pots and the blue variable cap change the display when in color mode. The monitor I'm using is tested good with a color CCTV camera I have lying around. The geometry changes as expected with bit changes at 0x0F and the "dots" change as expected when the memory at the address assigned at 0x0E is modified. My guess is that something is wrong in the color burst (is that the right name?) circuit? Or is it possible that there is something different about the signal that a newer (manufactured Jan. 1993) color monitor wouldn't like? Unfortunately, the scan of the Dazzler manual on the Harte Technologies web site is not at a high enough resolution for the schematics to be read in detail. A better scan of the schematics would be greatly appreciated as would any other help, video signal generation is not my strong suit. Thanks, Bill No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.485 / Virus Database: 269.13.8/993 - Release Date: 9/6/2007 3:18 PM From legalize at xmission.com Fri Sep 7 17:55:01 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 16:55:01 -0600 Subject: free for pickup: VAX 11/750 In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 07 Sep 2007 16:46:03 -0600. Message-ID: Oops, looks like the Reply-To setting gets changed, so please reply to the owner directly. Its apparently in Montpelier, ID. Hopefully someone can adopt this to a loving home. If you need help arranging pickup or whatnot, give me a hollar. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From legalize at xmission.com Fri Sep 7 18:03:33 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 17:03:33 -0600 Subject: free for pickup: VAX 11/750 In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 07 Sep 2007 17:50:29 -0500. Message-ID: I guess I was under the impression that the 11/750 was a larger machine than it seems as pictured here: Could I fit it in a Saturn VUE if laid down on its side or back? If so, then I might as well drive up and get it. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From curt at atarimuseum.com Fri Sep 7 18:07:22 2007 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt @ Atari Museum) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 19:07:22 -0400 Subject: power brownout logger? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46E1D9AA.3010009@atarimuseum.com> Check out the UPS backups, APC has a line which I'm certain has a power monitoring log so you can see when the voltage sags or spikes and records power outages. Curt Richard wrote: > Sorry if this is a little off-topic, but after hunting around on the > net I couldn't find the right search term to find what I'm looking > for. > > OK, my power company sucks. I have brownouts and power outages all > too frequently. Yet when I look at the statistics recorded by the > public utilities commission, it seems obvious to me that they aren't > showing an accurate record of what happens at my house. > > So I'm looking for a device (I'm fairly certain I've seen these > before) that I plug into a wall outlet and it keeps a log of voltage > sags, brownouts and outages. Then I can use this to build a > reliability profile of my power company as raw data to compete with > their b.s. line that its never their fault when my power constantly > sucks. > > Any suggestions? > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 18:07:51 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 18:07:51 -0500 Subject: free for pickup: VAX 11/750 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9/7/07, Richard wrote: > > I guess I was under the impression that the 11/750 was a larger > machine than it seems as pictured here: > > > Could I fit it in a Saturn VUE if laid down on its side or back? > > If so, then I might as well drive up and get it. Dunno about a VUE, but I did transport an 11/750 across Ohio in the back of a Chevy Astro. I even managed to extract it alone - they aren't that heavy - lots of empty space. If you de-install the PSUs, one person should be able to move it solo without too much difficulty. -ethan From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 7 17:18:12 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 23:18:12 +0100 (BST) Subject: A frightening little bit of technology In-Reply-To: <46E000F5.6024.1FEE9275@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 6, 7 01:30:29 pm Message-ID: > Let's be clear here--I interpret 5.25 DD to be 360K (250K data rate > at 300 RPM) at 48 tpi. And "quad" to me is the same data rate but > narrower tracks for 96 tpi and 720K. AFAIK, the only difference > between DSDD and DSQD was the supposed certification provided by the > mnaufacturer. I never found any difference at all. When the PC was the only current machine with 5.25" drives, I bought several boxes of name=brand 5.25" DD disks that would format reliably as 40 cylinder disks on a PC and similarly on other machines (and which are still readable), but which would not format reliably as 80 cylinder disks. And yes, I am clueful enough not be be complaining they didn't work as HD disks on a PC/AT. What I a talking about is formatting them as 80 cylinder disks on BBC micros, TRS80s, etc. I assume it was something like an increased background noise level. I cna think of no other explanation. Incidentally, I was given a couple of plastic carrier bags full of bulk-erased DEC RX50 disks. Although these were only ever indended to be used as signle-sided disks, I have never had one fail to format 80 cylinders _double_ sided. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 7 17:46:21 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 23:46:21 +0100 (BST) Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <46E0FC71.807BA08C@cs.ubc.ca> from "Brent Hilpert" at Sep 7, 7 00:23:29 am Message-ID: > (On the other hand, who uses a calulator any longer? For me, anything mor= Me, for one... > e > than one or a couple of multiplications or divisions, and it's straight t= > o the > spreadsheet app kept idling in the background.) > You clearly work near a computer all the time, I don't. It's a darn site easier to find somewhere to stick the HP16C when working on a minicomputer system, than to find somewhere to put even a laptop computer. And similarly it's a lot easier to sit an HP42S on a lathe bed than a PC. For more 'mathematical' stuff, I use my HP48 or HP49. For 'programming-realted' stuff I use an HP41 or HP71... Note the common manufacturer ;-) -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 7 17:58:39 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 23:58:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <46E142910200003700010E68@gwiavs.nservices.wmata.com> from "Tim Shoppa" at Sep 7, 7 12:22:41 pm Message-ID: > > der Mouse wrote: > > Second, the user interface is, at least in my experience of calculators > > and programs that can serve for similar purposes, substantially > > better-designed for the task. Part of this is the physical > > portability, but not all; a general-purpose keyboard is not the best > > input device for calculator functionality. > > I think older calculators actually do a better job than many modern > calculators. Now why do you think there's an HP16C on my electronics bench and rarely a day goes by that I don't turn on at least one of my HP41s.... > > With modern calculators, I feel like I do with modern DVD player > remote controls: way too many buttons, way too many suboptions > and menus to do what I actually want. > > Bit-mapped LCD screens with their ability to do menus and option > lists are part of the evil. Go back to devices before them, and you > find the core functionality (and all functionality for that matter) > directly accessible. After them, everything is on a menu on a > submenu on a ... You'd think there'd be fewer buttons with all > the menus, but you'd be wrong! For a classic example of this, try using the binary, octal, or hex modes on the latest HP35S. To call then unusable would be being kind. Let me explain To selet the mode, you select the 'Bases' menu, then either press 1 ... 4 or move the curser to the apropratiate item on the display and hit enter. The problem is that this only sets the _display_ mode. If yoy select hex mode and then enter 42, it's interpretted as 42 _decimal_ (and displayed as 2A). To get 42 hex you type 42, then select the bases menu, scroll down, and select the lower case 'h' on that menu. I think you can hit the appropratie digit key -- if you can remember it. Whoever thought up that user interface has clearly never had to decode a hex tump. And that's why that 16C is staying on my bench! > > Of course I am often frustrated with modern digital scopes. > Several of the better brands actually bring out onto knobs (well, > they're probably really shaft encoders now) all the traditional > analog knobs that should be on a scope. But other brands and > lesser models put everything behind a menu. Arggghhh! Or haev one know that sets the Y gain, trigger level, timebase speed, X shift, Y shift, etc depending on which menu/key you used last. And often said instruments don't even display what the knob currently controls. If you gorget, you can find you meant to shift the trace across a bit, but in fact you've just twiddeled your carefully-adjusted trigger level. > As for the perfect user interface for VCR's, I think back to the > first home units: to record a program in advance, you turn the > channel knob to the channel you want, and turn some dials to > set the timers for start and stop times. Wonderful! Here we The first home VCR in the UK (Philips N1500) had an analogue clock. To set the timer, you twlddled knobs onthat that changed the position and length of a coloured arc on the clock face. When the hour hand was within that arc, the machine fired up. Since the longest tape was one hour, the lrngth of the arc was limited to 1 hour on the dial. There was another knob with '12' and '24' positins. In the former case, the machine turned on the first time the hour hand came round to the arc (in other words sometime in the next 12 hours), in the latter, the second time it came round (12-24 hours). Worked well, easy to understand... Another thin I can't stnad are touch-sensitive displays on cellular phones, handhelds, etc. A real keyboard can be used one-handed, _without looking at it_. There ahve been many times I've been watching something else (say a measuring instruemtn) and wanted to type in numbers to a calculator. Impossible on these modern touch-screen PDA.... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 7 18:03:47 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 00:03:47 +0100 (BST) Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <46E19A1F.6060104@jetnet.ab.ca> from "woodelf" at Sep 7, 7 12:36:15 pm Message-ID: > > Dave McGuire wrote: > > > Looking for the card?? Why not just build one? It was a construction > > article, after all. > Since when have you seen a computer contruction article that > you DID not have send alway for PCB layouts or firmware? I know that's a rhetorical question, but I have to answer it :-) PE (Practical Electorncc) 'CHAMP' system, in 1977 or so. It was built on stribboard (and IC postion layouts were given, but you had to work out where to run the wires from the shcematic). As was the assembly listing of the monitor ROM. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Sep 7 17:38:27 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 23:38:27 +0100 (BST) Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <575131af0709061825m313b7099jcc8e140c6493b0ba@mail.gmail.com> from "Liam Proven" at Sep 7, 7 02:25:18 am Message-ID: > There was the QXL and QXL2, Sinclair QL-compatibles on an ISA card, > using the PC as a host and for I/O: > http://sinclairql.emuunlim.com/hardware.html > > ISTR an Amiga version of something like this but I can't recall any > details, alas. Has anyone mentioned the Apple-][-on-an-ISA-card yet? There were at least 2 of them, they connected to the disk drives and CGA card too, and let you run Apple ][ software on a PC system, copy files between PC and Apple disks, etc. And I think there was an ARM-2 development system on an ISA card. Never seen it, though -tony From wdonzelli at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 18:19:13 2007 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 19:19:13 -0400 Subject: free for pickup: VAX 11/750 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I can't believe there's still a NOS 11/750 out there, but it'll be a > sweet acquisition for someone. You can not assume it is NOS. It could have been working in a coal mine for years, by the previous owner, not the current one. -- Will From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Sep 7 18:32:41 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 16:32:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20070907162822.F747@shell.lmi.net> On Fri, 7 Sep 2007, Tony Duell wrote: > Has anyone mentioned the Apple-][-on-an-ISA-card yet? There were at least > 2 of them, they connected to the disk drives and CGA card too, and let > you run Apple ][ software on a PC system, copy files between PC and Apple > disks, etc. Quadlink from Quadram: We had a 70% DOA rate on about 3 dozen, including 70% DOA rate on the replacements, including connectors installed wrong (such that the board could not be installed) Diamond Trackstar 128: for a while was available through Radio Shack From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri Sep 7 18:44:20 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 16:44:20 -0700 (PDT) Subject: free for pickup: VAX 11/750 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <131049.32610.qm@web52703.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > > Could I fit it in a Saturn VUE if laid down on its > side or back? > > > > If so, then I might as well drive up and get it. > > Dunno about a VUE, but I did transport an 11/750 > across Ohio in the > back of a Chevy Astro. I even managed to extract it > alone - they > aren't that heavy - lots of empty space. If you > de-install the PSUs, > one person should be able to move it solo without > too much difficulty. I transported mine in the back of a Chevy Venture, along with a Vax 6000. They're bulky, but not impossible to move alone. Uses the same side panels as a TU80, and it's about 30" wide. -Ian From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Sep 7 18:43:47 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 19:43:47 -0400 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <46E198BB.9010506@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20070907074830.8F181FB77E@mac-mini.local> <46E198BB.9010506@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <200709071943.47782.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 07 September 2007 14:30, woodelf wrote: > Bernd Kopriva wrote: > > Ahhh, > > i'm looking for this one for quite some years now ... > > ... even Steve dropped his own inventory some years too early :( > > That was the only Z8000 project I knew of. I wonder if it was > do to the fact the Z8000 could of had lots of hardware bugs nobody > could use it. That seems unlikely, considering that Tellabs used the Z8002 in a lot of telco gear (of which I have some boards from). Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From ian_primus at yahoo.com Fri Sep 7 18:46:46 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 16:46:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: BA123 power supply signal question Message-ID: <278854.92368.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> On a BA123 power supply, each regulator has three non-power pins - LTC, POK and DCOK. Am I correct to assume these are TTL level outputs? What is the computer expecting to get from these three lines if everything is OK? -Ian From rick at rickmurphy.net Fri Sep 7 19:11:04 2007 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 20:11:04 -0400 Subject: free for pickup: VAX 11/750 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200709080011.l880B4M0017937@mail.itm-inst.com> At 07:03 PM 9/7/2007, Richard wrote: >I guess I was under the impression that the 11/750 was a larger >machine than it seems as pictured here: > > >Could I fit it in a Saturn VUE if laid down on its side or back? > >If so, then I might as well drive up and get it. I think so. The back of the VUE has 37 inches between the wheel well humps in the back; as long as you fold the rear seats down it should fit OK. ("Should" as I don't know the height, but don't think it's much more than a yard tall. -Rick From rcini at optonline.net Fri Sep 7 19:11:24 2007 From: rcini at optonline.net (Richard A. Cini) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 20:11:24 -0400 Subject: Cromemco Dazzler troubleshooting... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Bill: To me it does sound like the color burst frequency is off. Maybe there's a trimmer cap somewhere that needs adjusting. Take a look at my Web site ( http://www.altair32.com/Altair32links.htm) and look for the Dazzler manual near the end of the page. My docs are from a different source than Howard's and might be of a better quality. Rich On 9/7/07 6:50 PM, "Bill Sudbrink" wrote: > Hi, > > I have a Dazzler board set that _almost_ works. > Gray scale looks good and color looks OK, except > that it's gray too. The shades of gray change > when I flip the color bit at I/O address 0x0F and > the red and green pots and the blue variable cap > change the display when in color mode. The monitor > I'm using is tested good with a color CCTV camera > I have lying around. The geometry changes as > expected with bit changes at 0x0F and the "dots" > change as expected when the memory at the address > assigned at 0x0E is modified. My guess is that > something is wrong in the color burst (is that the > right name?) circuit? Or is it possible that there > is something different about the signal that a newer > (manufactured Jan. 1993) color monitor wouldn't like? > Unfortunately, the scan of the Dazzler manual on the > Harte Technologies web site is not at a high enough > resolution for the schematics to be read in detail. > A better scan of the schematics would be greatly > appreciated as would any other help, video signal > generation is not my strong suit. > > Thanks, > Bill > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.485 / Virus Database: 269.13.8/993 - Release Date: 9/6/2007 > 3:18 PM > Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.altair32.com http://highgate.comm.sfu.ca/~rcini/classiccmp From martinm at allwest.net Fri Sep 7 19:14:20 2007 From: martinm at allwest.net (Martin Marshall) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 18:14:20 -0600 Subject: free for pickup: VAX 11/750 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000201c7f1ad$3705ed40$0202a8c0@p4266> > > Its apparently in Montpelier, ID. Hopefully someone can > adopt this to a loving home. If you need help arranging > pickup or whatnot, give me a hollar. > -- Richard: Do you know when it needs to be removed? I live in Evanston, WY, and I need to go to Fish Haven, ID in a week or so. Fish Haven is about 35 miles from Montpelier. I can fit it in my Suburban then. This could lead to the VAX / VMS world.... Martin From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Sep 7 19:14:01 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 20:14:01 -0400 Subject: free for pickup: VAX 11/750 In-Reply-To: <200709080011.l880B4M0017937@mail.itm-inst.com> References: <200709080011.l880B4M0017937@mail.itm-inst.com> Message-ID: <200709072014.01344.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 07 September 2007 20:11, Rick Murphy wrote: > At 07:03 PM 9/7/2007, Richard wrote: > >I guess I was under the impression that the 11/750 was a larger > >machine than it seems as pictured here: > > > > > >Could I fit it in a Saturn VUE if laid down on its side or back? > > > >If so, then I might as well drive up and get it. > > I think so. The back of the VUE has 37 inches between the wheel well > humps in the back; as long as you fold the rear seats down it should > fit OK. ("Should" as I don't know the height, but don't think it's > much more than a yard tall. My 11/750 measures 29" W x 31" D x 41.5" H. Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 19:18:49 2007 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 19:18:49 -0500 Subject: free for pickup: VAX 11/750 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <51ea77730709071718q69765f62j2d804b8717dda3c1@mail.gmail.com> On 9/7/07, Ethan Dicks wrote: > Idaho?!? > > Wow... hopefully someone is close enough to pick this up. The 11/750 > is a *niiiice* machine. Must....deny....desire....for.....road....trip... ~1400 miles each way...beautiful country....big VAX.... Hope *someone* gets it, anyway. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 7 19:20:58 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 17:20:58 -0700 Subject: free for pickup: VAX 11/750 In-Reply-To: <200709072014.01344.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: , <200709072014.01344.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: <46E1887A.12748.25E7EAE0@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Sep 2007 at 20:14, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > My 11/750 measures 29" W x 31" D x 41.5" H. That's just the CPU--if there is a complete installation with extra cabinets for disk/tape drives (not atypical), it could get to be a bit bigger :). Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Sep 7 19:35:08 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 17:35:08 -0700 Subject: A frightening little bit of technology In-Reply-To: References: <46E000F5.6024.1FEE9275@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 6, 7 01:30:29 pm, Message-ID: <46E18BCC.13589.25F4E440@cclist.sydex.com> On 7 Sep 2007 at 23:18, Tony Duell wrote: > And yes, I am clueful enough not be be complaining they didn't work as HD > disks on a PC/AT. What I a talking about is formatting them as 80 > cylinder disks on BBC micros, TRS80s, etc. > > I assume it was something like an increased background noise level. I cna > think of no other explanation. Dunno, but when we were selling our own-branded Dysan 100 tpi diskettes, I was told by the Dysan sales tech that the formulation was exactly the same as the 48 tpi versions; that only the verification process was different. Maybe the UK got all of the floor sweepings; I don't know. I do know that the certifiers used for DSDD diskettes were programmed to toss a cookie that verified fine on one side but not the other into the "about to become SSDD" media pile. That's not to say that the occasional branded-and-certified-as-100- tpi diskette failed to format either. There was a reason that everyone had a flawing mechanism of some sort built into most operating systems. And our application was a bit tougher than most as we were packing something like 950K in a 77cyl * 2sides *12sect * 512bytes format using GCR and an elevated clock rate. This was a couple of years before Osborne was putting, what, 90K on a 5.25" floppy? Cheers, Chuck From pat at computer-refuge.org Fri Sep 7 19:37:24 2007 From: pat at computer-refuge.org (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 20:37:24 -0400 Subject: free for pickup: VAX 11/750 In-Reply-To: <46E1887A.12748.25E7EAE0@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200709072014.01344.pat@computer-refuge.org> <46E1887A.12748.25E7EAE0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <200709072037.24575.pat@computer-refuge.org> On Friday 07 September 2007 20:20, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 7 Sep 2007 at 20:14, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > My 11/750 measures 29" W x 31" D x 41.5" H. > > That's just the CPU--if there is a complete installation with extra > cabinets for disk/tape drives (not atypical), it could get to be a > bit bigger :). Hey, at least you can put UNIBUS cards in the CPU box, unlike the 11/780, which requires another rack for that. With a UNIBUS SCSI disk controller, and a little bit of clever placement, you could fit an entire system for an 11/750 into just the CPU rack. :) Pat -- Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/ The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Sep 7 19:29:37 2007 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 01:29:37 +0100 Subject: BA123 power supply signal question In-Reply-To: <278854.92368.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <278854.92368.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46E1ECF1.90008@dunnington.plus.com> On 08/09/2007 00:46, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > On a BA123 power supply, each regulator has three > non-power pins - LTC, POK and DCOK. Am I correct to > assume these are TTL level outputs? What is the > computer expecting to get from these three lines if > everything is OK? They're TTL open-collector signals, same as the rest of the QBus. The LTC is a square wave at line frequency used for a real-time clock. DCOK is an active-high signal indicating that the DC power is available to run the processor. It's derived from the regulator output and when the power isn't OK, it's pulled low. POK is derived from the AC input and is also high when everything is fine. It's pulled low when the AC power disappears and is used to initiate a power-fail trap on the processor, shortly before the DC power is lost. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Sep 7 19:49:12 2007 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (Bill Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 20:49:12 -0400 Subject: Cromemco Dazzler troubleshooting... In-Reply-To: Message-ID: > To me it does sound like the color burst frequency is off. > Maybe there's > a trimmer cap somewhere that needs adjusting. Yup, that was it. The "blue" variable cap is very tight and, requiring a screwdriver to adjust, very difficult to adjust in place. What I interpreted to be its stop point was, in fact, not. A little extra push and color appears. Next problem, with the addition of color, the image has some significant "ghosting". Any suggestions on fixing? Thanks, Bill No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.485 / Virus Database: 269.13.8/993 - Release Date: 9/6/2007 3:18 PM From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 20:41:52 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 20:41:52 -0500 Subject: free for pickup: VAX 11/750 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 9/7/07, William Donzelli wrote: > > I can't believe there's still a NOS 11/750 out there, but it'll be a > > sweet acquisition for someone. > > You can not assume it is NOS. It could have been working in a coal > mine for years, by the previous owner, not the current one. That's always a possibility, but what I read was that the previous owner bought it as a spare. I'm only going on the OPs claims. Of course, I can't substantiate it. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 20:42:25 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 20:42:25 -0500 Subject: free for pickup: VAX 11/750 In-Reply-To: <200709072037.24575.pat@computer-refuge.org> References: <200709080011.l880B4M0017937@mail.itm-inst.com> <200709072014.01344.pat@computer-refuge.org> <46E1887A.12748.25E7EAE0@cclist.sydex.com> <200709072037.24575.pat@computer-refuge.org> Message-ID: On 9/7/07, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Hey, at least you can put UNIBUS cards in the CPU box, unlike the > 11/780, which requires another rack for that. With a UNIBUS SCSI disk > controller, and a little bit of clever placement, you could fit an > entire system for an 11/750 into just the CPU rack. :) Including a 5.25" or 3.5" disk. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 20:44:31 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 20:44:31 -0500 Subject: free for pickup: VAX 11/750 In-Reply-To: <46E1887A.12748.25E7EAE0@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200709080011.l880B4M0017937@mail.itm-inst.com> <200709072014.01344.pat@computer-refuge.org> <46E1887A.12748.25E7EAE0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On 9/7/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 7 Sep 2007 at 20:14, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > > My 11/750 measures 29" W x 31" D x 41.5" H. > > That's just the CPU--if there is a complete installation with extra > cabinets for disk/tape drives (not atypical), it could get to be a > bit bigger :). A typical installation did have more than the CPU cabinet (the one I ran for a decade had the CPU plus an H960 plus a TU-80 cab), but in this era, you can throw enough cards to be useful (disk, ethernet, serial, printer...) in the internal DD-11DK _plus_ a smallish disk right in the CPU cab. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Sep 7 20:45:53 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 20:45:53 -0500 Subject: free for pickup: VAX 11/750 In-Reply-To: <200709080011.l880B4M0017937@mail.itm-inst.com> References: <200709080011.l880B4M0017937@mail.itm-inst.com> Message-ID: On 9/7/07, Rick Murphy wrote: > At 07:03 PM 9/7/2007, Richard wrote: > >Could I fit it in a Saturn VUE if laid down on its side or back? > > I think so. The back of the VUE has 37 inches between the wheel well > humps in the back; as long as you fold the rear seats down it should > fit OK. ("Should" as I don't know the height, but don't think it's much > more than a yard tall. It should be closer to 42" tall, but less than a yard wide or long... perhaps on its side? -ethan From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Fri Sep 7 22:07:32 2007 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 21:07:32 -0600 Subject: TCP/IP testing, round 3 ... In-Reply-To: <46E1B320.5050009@brutman.com> References: <46E1B320.5050009@brutman.com> Message-ID: <46E211F4.1070406@brutman.com> Michael B. Brutman wrote: > > I'm looking for a few people to connect to a small 'server' I am running > to help me test my TCP/IP for DOS. It can be reached at: > > telnet 24.159.200.228 2023 > > Hi everybody ... not sure if this got missed or not, but it has been really really slow. A grand total of 20 connects, and no more than 4 of them at the same time. I'd appreciate it if some more of you took a whack at it .. I'm on session 0 if anybody wants to try the crude chat feature. Once again, all of this is to stress test my TCP/IP code under normal/realistic conditions. Thanks, Mike From djg at pdp8.net Fri Sep 7 21:04:49 2007 From: djg at pdp8.net (djg at pdp8.net) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 22:04:49 -0400 Subject: Strange ADVENT error messages (OS/8) Message-ID: <200709080204.l8824n516881@user-119apiu.biz.mindspring.com> >This disk image works perfectly (including ADVENT) on my laptop >running SIMH. > The way advent is saved it is dependant on exact conditions when it is saved. If hardware is changed or files are moved it will not work. If you follow the instructions in advent.dc you can resave it. For reference http://www.pdp8.net/pdp8cgi/os8_html/ADVENT.DC?act=file;fn=images/os8/diag-games-kermit.rk05;blk=2243,9,1;to=auto An updated version is at http://www.rickmurphy.net/adventure.html From mcguire at neurotica.com Fri Sep 7 21:18:05 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 22:18:05 -0400 Subject: free for pickup: VAX 11/750 In-Reply-To: References: <200709080011.l880B4M0017937@mail.itm-inst.com> <200709072014.01344.pat@computer-refuge.org> <46E1887A.12748.25E7EAE0@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sep 7, 2007, at 9:44 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> My 11/750 measures 29" W x 31" D x 41.5" H. >> >> That's just the CPU--if there is a complete installation with extra >> cabinets for disk/tape drives (not atypical), it could get to be a >> bit bigger :). > > A typical installation did have more than the CPU cabinet (the one I > ran for a decade had the CPU plus an H960 plus a TU-80 cab), The 11/750 one I adminned from 1991-1993 consisted of the CPU cabinet, a TU80 cabinet with an RA60 in the bottom, and two CDC 9762 drives (CDC-labeled, not RM02s) connected via an Emulex controller. > but in > this era, you can throw enough cards to be useful (disk, ethernet, > serial, printer...) in the internal DD-11DK _plus_ a smallish disk > right in the CPU cab. That sure would be nice! :-) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Sep 7 22:11:39 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 23:11:39 -0400 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <200709072311.39685.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 07 September 2007 14:44, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 7 Sep 2007 at 12:22, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > I think older calculators actually do a better job > > > than many modern calculators. > > > > Same goes for a lot of things nowadays. Auto radios--while a > > passenger in a friend's new car, I asked how I would tune to a > > certain local FM station. His answer? "I don't know--I haven't > > figured out how to work the thing yet". > > > > I liked the old auto radios--two knobs; one for volume, the other for > > tuning and a bunch of preset buttons in the middle. Pull to set, push > > to switch. > > Agreed. In fact, I'm pretty sure that most people (people here, especially) > will agree that user interfaces on devices of all kinds has gone downhill. Indeed. Seems to me I remember Ted Nelson talking about this very issue, way back in 1974! > Clearly labeled and obvious buttons and controls are a thing of the past. > Everything now needs to be an aesthetic design element. Cars, calculators, > hi-fi equipment, it's all turned to this mess. Worse yet, in those cases where the user interface is entirely done in software ("skins") it's difficult to find something without all that crap and that gives a basic user interface! > I wonder just what happened. All-encompassing function knobs, menus > for Bass and Treble, confusing symbols, unlabeled indicator lamps - it's a > mess. Gone is the simplicity of a switch labeled "HEADLIGHTS", replaced with > a confusing array of symbols on a knob. I am getting SO tired of symbols on stuff -- just tell me WTF that does! > While they were at it, designers decided that it would be a good idea for > power indicators to light up when something is off, and go out when it's on. > Or how about a stereo with an animated "attract mode" when off? Ick. > I could go on and on, but I'm sure everyone gets the point. There was a time > when you could walk up to any radio/hi-fi/television/car and instantly be > able to operate it. Not anymore. But - remember - all these craptacular > interfaces are cheaper to build, think of that. Yay. Indeed they are. And things like quality switches and pots are getting ever harder to find. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Sep 7 22:26:24 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 23:26:24 -0400 Subject: Cromemco Dazzler troubleshooting... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200709072326.24665.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 07 September 2007 18:50, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > Hi, > > I have a Dazzler board set that _almost_ works. > Gray scale looks good and color looks OK, except > that it's gray too. The shades of gray change > when I flip the color bit at I/O address 0x0F and > the red and green pots and the blue variable cap > change the display when in color mode. The monitor > I'm using is tested good with a color CCTV camera > I have lying around. The geometry changes as > expected with bit changes at 0x0F and the "dots" > change as expected when the memory at the address > assigned at 0x0E is modified. My guess is that > something is wrong in the color burst (is that the > right name?) circuit? Or is it possible that there > is something different about the signal that a newer > (manufactured Jan. 1993) color monitor wouldn't like? > Unfortunately, the scan of the Dazzler manual on the > Harte Technologies web site is not at a high enough > resolution for the schematics to be read in detail. > A better scan of the schematics would be greatly > appreciated as would any other help, video signal > generation is not my strong suit. Got a scope? That's the best way to look at the output signal, and work your way back into it until you find out why there's no colorburst in there... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Sep 7 22:33:21 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 23:33:21 -0400 Subject: Cromemco Dazzler troubleshooting... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200709072333.21620.rtellason@verizon.net> On Friday 07 September 2007 20:49, Bill Sudbrink wrote: > > To me it does sound like the color burst frequency is off. > > Maybe there's > > a trimmer cap somewhere that needs adjusting. > > Yup, that was it. The "blue" variable cap is very tight and, > requiring a screwdriver to adjust, very difficult to adjust in place. > What I interpreted to be its stop point was, in fact, not. A little > extra push and color appears. Next problem, with the addition > of color, the image has some significant "ghosting". Any > suggestions on fixing? Cables, connections, maybe a bad ground somewhere? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Fri Sep 7 22:49:03 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 23:49:03 -0400 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever Message-ID: <200709072349.03888.rtellason@verizon.net> So I was poking around at bitsavers after snagging those TI databooks, and stumbled across some files pertaining to TurboDOS. I'd read about that before, might even have some manual or other on it someplace, but I've never had the pleasure. I do have one box that was supposed to be a multi-user system, that being my TeleVideo 816, which had TurboDOS as an option but the one I have came with something called MMMOST, which I wasn't all that impressed with. A guy was talking about sending me a tape but that never happened. I remember hearing about one or two other packages that were similar (never mind MP/M, which I've also not messed with and don't get the impression I want to bother with really), but have never had the pleasure of running any of them. A while back I *almost* got a hold of one of those "z80 network in a box" systems, it wasn't S-100 but something else I can't recall, I think that's the one I have the book on, but I never did snag it. Unfortunately instead of RS232 Televideo has something else going there (RS422?), not easy to interface too, and they distribute their "network" out amongst what other Televideo boxes you have, which in my case is none. I guess with an S-100-based system you could always add more cards, and somehow or other make it work. And speaking of the networking aspect of it, do any of you guys know how they did it? I recall one time getting a glimpse of some system or other that was S-100 but also had a set of connectors at thet op of each card, which is what they used for their inter-processor linking rather than trying to push it through the bus. The reason for this is not apparent to me. I've also seen some "CP/M networking" stuff referred to that was supposed to work through serial ports, which pretty many machines had, althogh they appeared in at least one case to be using diodes to wire-OR RS232 signals, which doesn't strike me as too terribly robust. And what software support there was for this wasn't real apparent. I dunno, I've just got this fascination for assorted 8-bit parts talking to each other through some smallish number of wires, I guess it's easier to deal with than some of the big iron you guys handle regularly, which I can't afford to go get never mind housing. And I've seen multiple processors used in stuff already, as in some musical equipment that passed "event information" from one chip to the next with only a couple of pins, or the daisywheel printer that had _four_ 804x procesors in it for different functions. TurboDOS is neat, and has some good design aspects in it, but there's too much legacy stuff in there for being able to run CP/M software, stuff I'd leave out if it were me and too much emphasis on the same old Console / Printer / Disk Drives in the system, as opposed to something different or unique. I found the same thing to be the case when I looked at FORTH, too much of the usual stuff, and that was supposed to have been used in some control applications? I must've missed something there... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rescue at hawkmountain.net Sat Sep 8 00:19:42 2007 From: rescue at hawkmountain.net (Curtis H. Wilbar Jr.) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 01:19:42 -0400 Subject: 68k Mac development environments In-Reply-To: <46E0E5A5.1000205@msu.edu> References: <46DE1639.6080400@msu.edu> <575131af0709061830v20296713m7ba5a565dd8e3964@mail.gmail.com> <46E0E5A5.1000205@msu.edu> Message-ID: <46E230EE.4020200@hawkmountain.net> Josh Dersch wrote: > Liam Proven wrote: >> On 05/09/07, Josh Dersch wrote: >> >>> Hi all -- >>> >>> I'm looking to do a bit of (simple) development targeting a 68k Mac (or >>> two, or three, or six...) and since I've never done any programming >>> on a >>> Mac before I'm curious if anyone out there has any recommendations >>> for a >>> development environment to use or to avoid. I'd prefer C/C++, but I'm >>> flexible :). I'd like to be able to run my code on a Mac Classic/SE >>> (so >>> I need to be able to compile to 68000 code) but I'll be doing the >>> development itself on a IIfx. >>> >>> In case you're interested, I'm writing the software to build a clock of >>> sorts out of a set of six "classic" form factor Macs I have lying >>> around >>> (two Classics, two SEs and two SE/30s). Each computer will display one >>> digit of the time, and will be synchronized over an Appletalk >>> network to >>> keep the system times in sync. Or so goes the theory. Figure it'll be >>> a fun display to have set up, and a somewhat interesting use for some >>> otherwise-idle Macintosh hardware :). >>> >> >> That is a really cool idea, which I like a lot. >> >> I am sure you're aware of it, but it instantly brought to mind the >> story of Jamie Zawinski's Dali clock and getting it running on various >> elderly Macs... >> >> http://www.jwz.org/gruntle/dali.html >> >> > Thanks for the vote of support :). I think most of the code should be > dead simple but I'm not sure how the time-sync networking portion's > going to go. I also need to pick up some serial Appletalk cabling; > the SEs and the SE/30s have ethernet cards, but the Classics are > unexpandable and thus do not. Maybe I can just find some more SEs to > use :). time sync ? only one needs to tell time :-) ... the rest just need to display the remainder of the digits... Either use messages over the appletalk of what to display... or treat each computer 'up' the chain like a dumb mechanical counter.... call the boxes H1, H2, M1, M2, S1, S2.... S2 tells the time... when it rolls over to zero it sends a 'tick' to S1... S1 knows its 'position', so when it rolls over from 5 to 0, it sends a tick to M2.... and up the 'ticking' goes. Either way would be 'fun' :-) -- Curt > > I hope to get most of the work done this weekend, assuming nothing > interrupts me... ha ha ha. > > And I have a copy of the original Mac Dali clock on one of my macs... > somewhere :). > > - Josh From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Sep 8 00:23:17 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 23:23:17 -0600 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <200709072311.39685.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200709072311.39685.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <46E231C5.3080708@jetnet.ab.ca> Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Indeed they are. And things like quality switches and pots are getting ever > harder to find. Forget quality , how about just replacement parts. Well it is the allmighty $ that is giving us NO-Cost No-quality parts. Take for example my DVD/CD player $ 1,200.00 Canadian for 'elite' quality.About $30 for a DVD/CD player at Wall-mart. Hopefully you get what you pay-for and I get a few years out of my DVD-player before they introduce a MUST have new non-standard standard in Audio or Video Playback. Ben alias Woodelf PS. Pioneer DV-AVi-S Elite From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sat Sep 8 01:09:29 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 23:09:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Data General Nova 4 needs a new home In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 7 Sep 2007, David Griffith wrote: > I am helping to liquidate a collection of stuff belonging to a guy near > Pasadena California. Among the items is a Data General Nova 4 and related > peripherals. It includes the Nova 4 itself, a 25 megabyte hard drive, > magtape drive, paper tape (I think), and assorted other fiddly bits. The > whole thing is in a 6-foot-tall rack, so you'll need to pick it up > yourself and get a couple friends to help. It also includes a decent > amount of documentation and paper-tape software. > > This fellow got caught in the recent storm of mortgage forclosures and > needs to clean out all the stuff he's not keeping (which is most of it) by > the end of September: this month. So, this thing needs to go NOW. No > reasonable offer refused. > > If you're interested, please email me at the below address or my yahoo > address (cupricus) if that doesn't work for you. Here's an update. It doesn't have a paper tape reader, but it does have an 8-inch floppy drive and lots of serial ports. The Nova needs to be gone by the 24th of this month at the absolute latest -- preferable sooner. Pictures can be seen at http://frotz.homeunix.org/tmp/nova/. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu From jwstephens at msm.umr.edu Sat Sep 8 01:39:35 2007 From: jwstephens at msm.umr.edu (jim) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 23:39:35 -0700 Subject: TCP/IP testing, round 3 ... In-Reply-To: <46E211F4.1070406@brutman.com> References: <46E1B320.5050009@brutman.com> <46E211F4.1070406@brutman.com> Message-ID: <46E243A7.3080602@msm.umr.edu> Michael B. Brutman wrote: > > > Once again, all of this is to stress test my TCP/IP code under > normal/realistic conditions. Hi mike. I don't have a solaris system up, but maybe someone has a spray command ported elsewhere. I recall it on sunos or solaris and it would generate quite a bit of traffic for you if we fired at your connection. Jim From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sat Sep 8 05:27:30 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 03:27:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Data General Nova 4 needs a new home In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <288920.96310.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > Here's an update. It doesn't have a paper tape > reader, but it does have > an 8-inch floppy drive and lots of serial ports. > The Nova needs to be > gone by the 24th of this month at the absolute > latest -- preferable > sooner. Pictures can be seen at > http://frotz.homeunix.org/tmp/nova/. I really, really, really wish I were close enough. Why is all the good stuff on the other side of the country! Someone buy this beautiful machine! -Ian From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sat Sep 8 08:39:19 2007 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 07:39:19 -0600 Subject: TCP/IP testing, round 3 ... In-Reply-To: <46E243A7.3080602@msm.umr.edu> References: <46E1B320.5050009@brutman.com> <46E211F4.1070406@brutman.com> <46E243A7.3080602@msm.umr.edu> Message-ID: <46E2A607.2@brutman.com> jim wrote: > Michael B. Brutman wrote: >> Once again, all of this is to stress test my TCP/IP code under >> normal/realistic conditions. > > Hi mike. > > I don't have a solaris system up, but maybe someone has a spray command > ported elsewhere. I recall it on sunos or solaris and it would generate > quite a bit of traffic for you if we fired at your connection. > > Jim > > I don't know if the DOS box is ready to handle a DOS attack just yet. ;-) I have thought about doing some sort of scripting on a Unix box to simulate sessions; a few hours of that would probably be a good exercise. But I like asking the list for help because besides getting a variety of machines from across the net, some of you use the sysop page function to say hello. :-) Current stats: stats Server started: Fri Sep 07 13:54:57 2007 Session start: Fri Sep 07 13:55:17 2007 Current time: Sat Sep 08 07:29:04 2007 Active sessions 4, Max Active sessions 4, Total Sessions: 41 Tcp Pkts Sent 2682 Rcvd 2726 Retrans 23 Seq/Ack errs 4 Dropped 0 Pkt stats: Incoming pkts: 3537 Dropped: 0 Sent: 2821 Mike From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat Sep 8 08:16:25 2007 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 09:16:25 -0400 Subject: Does anyone use RT-11? In-Reply-To: <46E19C3C.5060709@compsys.to> References: <46E19C3C.5060709@compsys.to> Message-ID: <20070908131626.0B6C5BA456B@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> "Jerome H. Fine" wrote: > Just as there were inquiries about using PDP-11 hardware, I thought > that it might be helpful to know if anyone uses RT-11 and for what > purpose. I find myself firing it up a few times a year to try building a crufty old DECUS program that I recovered. But really I haven't found a big stash of DECUS stuff since you got me some of the Canadian collections a decade ago. Just don't have any patience or time for computers in general these days! Tim. From shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com Sat Sep 8 08:24:23 2007 From: shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 09:24:23 -0400 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <200709072311.39685.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200709072311.39685.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <20070908132423.CED4ABA456B@mini-me.trailing-edge.com> "Roy J. Tellason" wrote: > Worse yet, in those cases where the user interface is entirely done in > software ("skins") it's difficult to find something without all that crap and > that gives a basic user interface! Some of the very-low end consumer equipment (e.g. grocery store $20 VCR's and DVD players) actually put a few truly functional buttons ("play", "stop") that can be used without any menu interaction at all. Of course on a consumer DVD it is likely to disable the buttons when the DVD content says the button must be disabled, but that's not the UI's fault, that's the DVD licensing. Get much above the bargain-basement stuff (like $30!) and you're into not creeping but exploding featuritis territory. Tim. From stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com Sat Sep 8 08:47:00 2007 From: stimpy.u.idiot at gmail.com (Pete Edwards) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 14:47:00 +0100 Subject: power brownout logger? In-Reply-To: <46E1D9AA.3010009@atarimuseum.com> References: <46E1D9AA.3010009@atarimuseum.com> Message-ID: <11c909eb0709080647r4d2a08a8v2d9d45af8c2d9c79@mail.gmail.com> On 08/09/2007, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > Check out the UPS backups, APC has a line which I'm certain has a power > monitoring log so you can see when the voltage sags or spikes and > records power outages. > > Use a UPS so your logs are maintained. There's some neat open source software called NUT which will do line quality logging if the UPS supports it. Big list of supported devices too. http://www.networkupstools.org/ -- Pete Edwards "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future" - Niels Bohr From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Sep 8 09:19:32 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 07:19:32 -0700 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <46E198BB.9010506@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <20070907074830.8F181FB77E@mac-mini.local> <46E198BB.9010506@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 12:30:19 -0600> From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> To: > Subject: Re: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes?> > Bernd Kopriva wrote:> > > Ahhh,> > i'm looking for this one for quite some years now ...> > ... even Steve dropped his own inventory some years too early :(> > That was the only Z8000 project I knew of. I wonder if it was> do to the fact the Z8000 could of had lots of hardware bugs nobody> could use it.> > Ciao Bernd Hi I have an Olivetti M20 and it uses the Z8000. It doesn't seem to have any bugs. It works just fine. It just isn't a 8086. In some ways the Z8000 was much better than the 8086 but it just never caught on. Olivetti sold thousands of M20's and a few larger machines as well using the Z8000. A lot of embedded machines use Z8000's as well. To my knowledge, there were no specific bug problems related to the Z8000. The M20 was designed in Cupertino,Ca. M20's are rare here in the US but still relatively common in Italy and Germany. A check of the Italian ebay shows about 3 or 4 a year. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Can you find the hidden words?? Take a break and play Seekadoo! http://club.live.com/seekadoo.aspx?icid=seek_wlmailtextlink From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Sep 8 09:36:16 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 07:36:16 -0700 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <46E122EC.32036.245B394F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200709060131.10531.rtellason@verizon.net>, <20070907074521.A12DCFB778@mac-mini.local> <46E122EC.32036.245B394F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: cclist at sydex.com> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org> Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 10:07:40 -0700> Subject: Re: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes?> > On 7 Sep 2007 at 9:58, Bernd Kopriva wrote:> > > Steve Ciarcia's Trump Card (Z-8001)> > >From the article at http://www.dtweed.com/circuitcellar/trumpcrd.pdf> > It seems that the big advantage cited by Ciarcia was the ability to > run a compile-in-place languge called TBASIC to gain performance. > Given the prices on his cards, it hardly seems like a bargain.> > If one wanted to goof around with the Z8000 family as a coprocessor > card, I'd be sore tempted to wire up something with a Z8002 and 64K > of SRAM. You get the instructions without the expense and you don't > have to deal with the (awful) Z8000 segmented mode. And relatively > easy to do a lashup. Instead of Ciarcia's bucket, you could probably > do with a single Z8036. Fit the whole thing on a "short" card. Hi You can still use a Z8001 because it boots to non-segmented mode and looks like a Z8002. The trick is to find the memory management chip and add it to the Z8001. One can still use the Z8001 without this and treat it as a Z8002. You can just ignore the segments. Still, if you want to get the CP/M8000 running, you'll need to embrace segmented code. Once you are running segmented code, the only reason you need to worry about it is that you can't run continuous code or data for more than 64K. The main disadvantage of running segemented is that many instructions take more code space. One can still switch back and forth between segmented code and non-segmented. This saves a lot of code space. If one does their memory decoding correctly, one can have 64K code and 64K data space in either segmented or non-segmented modes. ( the M20 does this for part of the memory map ). > > IMOHO, only Motorola and NS of all of the "16 bit" chip producers > ever understood the importance of a continuous non-segmented memory > space. Given the time of introduction, I consider the 68K to be a > marvel of MPU design. Too bad IBM didn't adopt it for the PC. That is true, it mades the 68K look real good for it's time. Still, it had a memory limit, just bigger than 64K. Dwight > > Cheers,> Chuck> > > _________________________________________________________________ Kick back and relax with hot games and cool activities at the Messenger Caf?. http://www.cafemessenger.com?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_SeptWLtagline From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 8 11:18:08 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 09:18:08 -0700 (PDT) Subject: oi nice Message-ID: <10021.76065.qm@web61022.mail.yahoo.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/Sharp-x68000-XVI-Clean-Tested- Beautiful-Japan-Import_W0QQitemZ300146680786QQihZ020QQ categoryZ4193QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. http://farechase.yahoo.com/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 8 11:31:16 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 09:31:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: what's this? Message-ID: <73648.85430.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-HARRIS-DISKRITER-COMPUTER- PARTS-REPAIR_W0QQitemZ170147139531QQihZ007QQ categoryZ4193QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem and notice the 2 mangy mutts at the head of the bed. Yup, I sure want to lay my face exactly where they left their fleas, and worse (if you can imagine that). ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. http://farechase.yahoo.com/ From oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org Sat Sep 8 11:34:52 2007 From: oldcpu2 at rogerwilco.org (J Blaser) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 10:34:52 -0600 Subject: Does anyone use RT-11? In-Reply-To: <200709072136.l87LaP5i070053@dewey.classiccmp.org> References: <200709072136.l87LaP5i070053@dewey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <46E2CF2C.4050803@rogerwilco.org> Jerome H. Fine said: > Just as there were inquiries about using PDP-11 hardware, I thought > that it might be helpful to know if anyone uses RT-11 and for what > purpose. I'll pipe up here and confess I never professionally worked with RT-11, or any other DEC OS, for that matter, except for a very, very short 2-month stint with RSTS/E. And all I really was doing was making some small adjustments to DIBOL-coded accounting software for a customer. Then my world shifted, and I was sucked into the world of networking PC's (Novell) where I spent the better part of my career. Anyway, I *am* using RT-11 to image my collection of floppies (some of which probably belong on Tim Shoppa's site; TOPS-20 related stuff, looks like). Other than that, I'm basically a complete DEC newbie, and am just starting to dip into MACRO-11 on RT-11. Part of a pickup included a college textbook focused entirely on RT-11 MACRO-11, so I'm having some fun! :-) As for Ethan's interest in a Z-machine, I'll second that! But I don't even know where to start! - Jared PS. Thanks, again, to all that assisted the reviving of my PDP-11/03! From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 8 11:35:22 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 09:35:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: groovy Message-ID: <773604.86637.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> http://cgi.ebay.com/Ampro-series-100-industrial-computer_ W0QQitemZ200149653632QQihZ010QQ categoryZ1247QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem ____________________________________________________________________________________ Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. http://sims.yahoo.com/ From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 8 12:09:02 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 10:09:02 -0700 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: References: <200709060131.10531.rtellason@verizon.net>, <46E122EC.32036.245B394F@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <46E274BE.2934.2982D2C9@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Sep 2007 at 7:36, dwight elvey wrote: > You can still use a Z8001 because it boots to non-segmented mode > and looks like a Z8002. The trick is to find the memory management > chip and add it to the Z8001. One can still use the Z8001 without > this and treat it as a Z8002. You can just ignore the segments. > Still, if you want to get the CP/M8000 running, you'll need to > embrace segmented code. I understand--and if Ciarcia had offered a full-blown OS for his card, it might be worth exploring Z8001 segmented mode. The M20 and even the Onyx Z8000 Unix box that I used once upon a time would be worthwhile examples. But just to run a compile-in-place BASIC? The Z8000 wasn't a bad chip; it just didn't have anything going for it that was particularly exciting. But then, neither did the 8086-- but for the massive presence and production capabilities of Intel. To be fair, there were Z80-to-Z8000 translation tools, so one could ostensibly port an existing application. I've got the manual for one called TRANZ from AMC. I recall talking with the design guys from NS about the (then) 16032 and was blown away by the ambitious design. Had they been able to offer silicon in 1981, we would have signed with them. But it was always "Real Soon Now". From what I heard from friends who had attempted to use the first silicon, it was an experience that I was better for having missed. And then there was National's typical noncommitment to supporting any given design (IMP-16, SC/MP, PACE, 8080, 8086...) given the way the wind was blowing at any time. Apparently the NS32xxx series had better success overseas than it did domestically, where I'm sure there were plenty of frustrated people who gave up waiting on the "Real Soon Now". Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 8 12:20:05 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 10:20:05 -0700 Subject: what's this? In-Reply-To: <73648.85430.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> References: <73648.85430.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46E27755.3054.298CF299@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Sep 2007 at 9:31, Chris M wrote: eBay item 170147139531 Looks like a Harris Lanier box from the 80's, though I'm not familiar with the "Diskriter" model. Word processing, not terribly exciting and probably takes HS diskettes. Chris, please just post the item number for these things or use TinyURL or the like for the links. The darned eBay links wrap several lines in my email reader and require me to dig the number out manually. Cheers, Chuck From ploopster at gmail.com Sat Sep 8 12:28:57 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 13:28:57 -0400 Subject: Does anyone use RT-11? In-Reply-To: <46E19C3C.5060709@compsys.to> References: <46E19C3C.5060709@compsys.to> Message-ID: <46E2DBD9.3010900@gmail.com> Jerome H. Fine wrote: > Just as there were inquiries about using PDP-11 hardware, I thought > that it might be helpful to know if anyone uses RT-11 and for what > purpose. I use it, but nowadays, mostly for fun. I used to use it in robotics data acquisition. Peace... Sridhar From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Sat Sep 8 12:24:32 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 18:24:32 +0100 Subject: what's this? In-Reply-To: <46E27755.3054.298CF299@cclist.sydex.com> References: <73648.85430.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> <46E27755.3054.298CF299@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <46E2DAD0.9060407@yahoo.co.uk> Chuck Guzis wrote: > Chris, please just post the item number for these things or use > TinyURL or the like for the links. The darned eBay links wrap > several lines in my email reader and require me to dig the number out > manually. ... and where possible say in the message what the item is (sounds like that wasn't possible in this case!) rather than just posting a "look at this" link. I rarely waste the CPU cycles to fire up a browser unless I have some idea of what I'm going to be looking at! p.s. I think most modern-ish apps will make sense of URLs between <> characters and not wrap them across multiple lines; I think it is some standard or other, but there's no guarantee that *everything* from the last ten years will handle it :-) cheers Jules From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Sep 8 12:36:44 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 10:36:44 -0700 Subject: what's this? In-Reply-To: <46E27755.3054.298CF299@cclist.sydex.com> References: <73648.85430.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> <46E27755.3054.298CF299@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: At 10:20 AM -0700 9/8/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: >On 8 Sep 2007 at 9:31, Chris M wrote: > >eBay item 170147139531 > >Looks like a Harris Lanier box from the 80's, though I'm not familiar >with the "Diskriter" model. Word processing, not terribly exciting >and probably takes HS diskettes. Did they run MUSE? I must confess to having a fondness for MUSE. It probably doesn't hurt that initially the only alternative to the Harris Mini was a Xerox 860 that I was only allowed near for editing one manual, or an IBM Selectric. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 8 12:44:44 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 10:44:44 -0700 Subject: what's this? In-Reply-To: <46E2DAD0.9060407@yahoo.co.uk> References: <73648.85430.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com>, <46E27755.3054.298CF299@cclist.sydex.com>, <46E2DAD0.9060407@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <46E27D1C.14296.29A3840B@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Sep 2007 at 18:24, Jules Richardson wrote: > p.s. I think most modern-ish apps will make sense of URLs between <> > characters and not wrap them across multiple lines; I think it is some > standard or other, but there's no guarantee that *everything* from the last > ten years will handle it :-) Maybe, but I read all of my email in plaintext (not HTML) only. I use Pegasus for my reader, which isn't all that old (Version 4.41, July, 2006)--and the eBay URLs don't carry over as links from one line to the next. If it's longer than about 72 characters, forget it. Cheers, Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat Sep 8 13:01:20 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 11:01:20 -0700 Subject: what's this? In-Reply-To: References: <73648.85430.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com>, <46E27755.3054.298CF299@cclist.sydex.com>, Message-ID: <46E28100.3100.29B2B5A9@cclist.sydex.com> On 8 Sep 2007 at 10:36, Zane H. Healy wrote: > Did they run MUSE? I must confess to having a fondness for MUSE. It > probably doesn't hurt that initially the only alternative to the > Harris Mini was a Xerox 860 that I was only allowed near for editing > one manual, or an IBM Selectric. I thought that the Lanier WaPro was something called "OneStep" or the like. Wasn't MUSE an emacs addon? A shame that no one collects the old word processing systems; some of them were quite remarkable in design. Star and Cat seems to be about as far as people want to go. Cheers, Chuck From h.j.stegeman at hccnet.nl Sat Sep 8 13:23:54 2007 From: h.j.stegeman at hccnet.nl (Henk Stegeman) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 20:23:54 +0200 Subject: IBM 3270 ANR coax protocol. Message-ID: Hi, Can anyone help me with detailed information of the IBM ANR coax protocol used between IBM 3271/72 and IBM 3277 terminals ? 'ANR' stands for Alpha Numeric Replacement. This is what I know sofar of the ANR protocol: - transmission was done with words of 13 bits. - one bit time was 7 x 210nS = 1.47 uS (Not sure about the 7 x) - a logical ZERO was defined as an negative pulse of 210 nS. a logical ONE was defined as an negative pulse of 630 nS. (3 x 210 nS) - the 13 bits where used as follows: bit 1 - start bit (Busy bit) bit 2,3,4 - control bits bit 5 - 11 data bits bit 12 - odd parity over bits 2-11 bit 13 - buffer size (480 / 1920 bits) Transmission started with a dummy word with all 13 bits zero. I assume this was needed to establish word synchronisation. Followed by a WRITE CW1 and 480/1920 words. The 480/1920 words can be of any mix of attribute / data words. Currently I am building an async RS232 to ANR convertor and having difficulties in transfering data to an original IBM 3277 model 1 terminal. The problem is most likely timing. Does any one have an answer on the following question: Q1: the exact bit time ? Q2: exact pulse duration of logical ZERO and ONE ? Q3: time between words (if any). Q4: how was serial synchronisation maintained ? Any piece of information of this ANR protocol is welcome. Thanks ! Henk From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 8 13:44:09 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 11:44:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: what's this? In-Reply-To: <46E27755.3054.298CF299@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <573007.89716.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 8 Sep 2007 at 9:31, Chris M wrote: > > eBay item 170147139531 > > Looks like a Harris Lanier box from the 80's, though > I'm not familiar > with the "Diskriter" model. Word processing, not > terribly exciting > and probably takes HS diskettes. > > Chris, please just post the item number for these > things or use > TinyURL or the like for the links. The darned eBay > links wrap > several lines in my email reader and require me to > dig the number out > manually. I'll try. I have a fundamental opposition to the tiny thing, cuz yer never know what yer clicking on. Granted I've undoubtedly won the trust of everyone on this list (muahahahahahahaha). ____________________________________________________________________________________ Need a vacation? Get great deals to amazing places on Yahoo! Travel. http://travel.yahoo.com/ From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 8 13:45:41 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 11:45:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: what's this? In-Reply-To: <46E2DAD0.9060407@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <412339.28186.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com> --- Jules Richardson wrote: > Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Chris, please just post the item number for these > things or use > > TinyURL or the like for the links. The darned > eBay links wrap > > several lines in my email reader and require me to > dig the number out > > manually. > > ... and where possible say in the message what the > item is (sounds like that > wasn't possible in this case!) rather than just > posting a "look at this" link. > I rarely waste the CPU cycles to fire up a browser > unless I have some idea of > what I'm going to be looking at! > > p.s. I think most modern-ish apps will make sense of > URLs between <> > characters and not wrap them across multiple lines; > I think it is some > standard or other, but there's no guarantee that > *everything* from the last > ten years will handle it :-) Goofy yahoo even has a new feature (creature) whereby a balloon opens up if you hover over a url. I can understand why the goofy thing doesn't recognize such a url. Goofy ____________________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC From chrism3667 at yahoo.com Sat Sep 8 13:49:09 2007 From: chrism3667 at yahoo.com (Chris M) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 11:49:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: what's this? In-Reply-To: <46E27D1C.14296.29A3840B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <777477.26297.qm@web61014.mail.yahoo.com> --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > Maybe, but I read all of my email in plaintext (not > HTML) only. Schmott. Velly velly schmott ;) ____________________________________________________________________________________ Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. http://sims.yahoo.com/ From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Sep 8 13:52:11 2007 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 13:52:11 -0500 Subject: what's this? References: <573007.89716.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <02cd01c7f249$5dc0f690$6400a8c0@BILLING> ***TRIM YOUR REPLIES*** From robert at irrelevant.com Sat Sep 8 14:48:51 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 20:48:51 +0100 Subject: what's this? In-Reply-To: <573007.89716.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> References: <46E27755.3054.298CF299@cclist.sydex.com> <573007.89716.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2f806cd70709081248v2413c1c6k1f9a01dc413da7c3@mail.gmail.com> On 08/09/2007, Chris M wrote: > > I'll try. I have a fundamental opposition to the tiny > thing, cuz yer never know what yer clicking on. > Granted I've undoubtedly won the trust of everyone on > this list (muahahahahahahaha). > > Just quote the item number.. Or if you really want to post a URL, http://search.ebay.co.uk/nnnnnnnnnn works nicely where nnn..etc is the item number. (And you can even use the .com ..) Rob From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Sep 8 16:02:23 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 22:02:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: BA123 power supply signal question In-Reply-To: <278854.92368.qm@web52702.mail.re2.yahoo.com> from "Mr Ian Primus" at Sep 7, 7 04:46:46 pm Message-ID: > > On a BA123 power supply, each regulator has three > non-power pins - LTC, POK and DCOK. Am I correct to > assume these are TTL level outputs? What is the I'm pretty sure they're open-collector outputs. They can be pulled low by the PSU, but are pulled high by a resistor on the bus terminator (maybe the CPU in Q-bus systems?) > computer expecting to get from these three lines if > everything is OK? POK = Power OK, and is pulled low by the PSU if the AC input to the regulator fails DCOK is pulled low if the DC output of the regulator is too low. In normal operation, both these signals are high LTC = Line Time Clock, and is a regular square wave. What I can't remember is if the frequency is the same as mains (50/60Hz) or twice it (100/120Hz). -tony From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Sep 8 17:45:41 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 15:45:41 -0700 Subject: what's this? In-Reply-To: <46E28100.3100.29B2B5A9@cclist.sydex.com> References: <73648.85430.qm@web61023.mail.yahoo.com>, <46E27755.3054.298CF299@cclist.sydex.com>, <46E28100.3100.29B2B5A9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: At 11:01 AM -0700 9/8/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: >I thought that the Lanier WaPro was something called "OneStep" or the >like. Wasn't MUSE an emacs addon? I'm pretty sure that the version of MUSE I used wasn't an emacs addon, it was a screen editor, and you went forward or back one screen at a time, and couldn't scroll beyond one is on the screen one line at a time like on pretty much any other system I've ever used. Still it was very nice, and it was what really got my typing speed and accuracy up. Not to mention the Harris Mini I used it on probably couldn't have handled any version of emacs! :^) >A shame that no one collects the old word processing systems; some of >them were quite remarkable in design. Star and Cat seems to be about >as far as people want to go. I'm pretty sure that some people have Xerox 860's in their collections. I do have a Tandy kind of like the M100 that was basically only for writing. For some insane reason I picked it up in the early 90's when it was being phased out, and it proved to hard to get text on and off of it. Zane -- | Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator | | healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast | | MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector | +----------------------------------+----------------------------+ | Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, | | PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. | | http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ | From mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA Sat Sep 8 21:16:23 2007 From: mouse at Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA (der Mouse) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 22:16:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: TCP/IP testing, round 3 ... In-Reply-To: <46E211F4.1070406@brutman.com> References: <46E1B320.5050009@brutman.com> <46E211F4.1070406@brutman.com> Message-ID: <200709090216.WAA15689@Sparkle.Rodents.Montreal.QC.CA> >> telnet 24.159.200.228 2023 > I'd appreciate it if some more of you took a whack at it .. Well, when I tried just now, each SYN packet elicited a "host unreachable" ICMP about three seconds later: 22:13:46.280313 206.248.151.73.65358 > 24.159.200.228.2023: S 3271716993:3271716993(0) win 16384 (DF) 22:13:49.354198 24.159.200.228 > 206.248.151.73: icmp: host 24.159.200.228 unreachable 22:13:51.925999 206.248.151.73.65358 > 24.159.200.228.2023: S 3271716993:3271716993(0) win 16384 (DF) 22:13:55.008518 24.159.200.228 > 206.248.151.73: icmp: host 24.159.200.228 unreachable 22:14:03.926831 206.248.151.73.65358 > 24.159.200.228.2023: S 3271716993:3271716993(0) win 16384 (DF) 22:14:06.985624 24.159.200.228 > 206.248.151.73: icmp: host 24.159.200.228 unreachable 22:14:27.928751 206.248.151.73.65358 > 24.159.200.228.2023: S 3271716993:3271716993(0) win 16384 (DF) 22:14:30.986354 24.159.200.228 > 206.248.151.73: icmp: host 24.159.200.228 unreachable /~\ The ASCII der Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com Sat Sep 8 22:27:27 2007 From: mbbrutman-cctalk at brutman.com (Michael B. Brutman) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 21:27:27 -0600 Subject: TCP/IP testing, round 3 ... In-Reply-To: <46E211F4.1070406@brutman.com> References: <46E1B320.5050009@brutman.com> <46E211F4.1070406@brutman.com> Message-ID: <46E3681F.9000007@brutman.com> Testing is done. Thanks to all of you who connected and helped me exercise it. Nothing particularly interesting came up. There was one person who managed to get their sockets 'wedged' in FIN_WAIT2 state, which I thought was interesting - I think it was caused by the other machine not acking my FIN packets. Thanks again, Mike From davis at saw.net Sat Sep 8 21:53:52 2007 From: davis at saw.net (davis) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 19:53:52 -0700 Subject: TCP/IP testing, round 3 ... In-Reply-To: <46E3681F.9000007@brutman.com> References: <46E1B320.5050009@brutman.com> <46E211F4.1070406@brutman.com> <46E3681F.9000007@brutman.com> Message-ID: <46E36040.6040606@saw.net> Michael B. Brutman wrote: > > Testing is done. Thanks to all of you who connected and helped me > exercise it. > > Nothing particularly interesting came up. There was one person who > managed to get their sockets 'wedged' in FIN_WAIT2 state, which I > thought was interesting - I think it was caused by the other machine > not acking my FIN packets. > > > Thanks again, > Mike > > > > A FIN_WAIT2 is a classic DOS attack method. Heh heh. Jim Davis. From useddec at gmail.com Sat Sep 8 22:36:59 2007 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 22:36:59 -0500 Subject: Does anyone use RT-11? In-Reply-To: <46E19C3C.5060709@compsys.to> References: <46E19C3C.5060709@compsys.to> Message-ID: <624966d60709082036x10aa5473qb9b53862d0f27d1a@mail.gmail.com> I hope to have it running on an 11/05 and a 11/34 late this year' Paul On 9/7/07, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > Just as there were inquiries about using PDP-11 hardware, I thought > that it might be helpful to know if anyone uses RT-11 and for what > purpose. > > For myself, I have the addiction of fixing RT-11 bugs > in the operating system as well as making enhancements. > Ten years ago, I even produced most of the Y2K changes > that were required for V05.04G of RT-11 for a customer > who could not wait for Mentec. Eventually, I want to > produce a set of Y9K changes to allow years up to 9999 > to be used. > > Other enhancements include SL: and a new pseudo device > driver, SB: (SymBolic device list device driver) which > is similar to the VMS SNL (Symbolic Name List), but > operates only on a device which supports a directory > as does PATH for DOS. At one point it was named PH: > for Path Handler, but SB: seems a better choice. Even > more reasonable would be Symbolic device List or SL:, but > SL: is already used by the Single Line editor (or the DOSKEY > interface). Symbolic Debugger is also taken for SD: > > Lately, I mostly use Ersatz-11 and I have been making > changes and enhancements to the HD: (Hypothetical Disk) > device driver that John Wilson originally wrote in 1995. > The challenge I set myself was to produce a VM(X).SYS > equivalent that is: > (a) Faster - about 3 times as fast > (b) Higher capacity - a full 65536 blocks vs 8192 blocks > (c) Smaller number of LOADed words in low memory > (d) Support the command SET VM: [NO]WRITE > plus a number of other useful features. > > Well, one idea led to another and other versions are also > being tested which support 8 units and eventually 64 units > (with monitors that have that support as well). If there is > any interest, eventually a translation table similar to the > one used by DU(X).SYS is possible. In addition, full 32 bit > block number support will be done eventually which will > allow 2 TeraByte disk drives. > > The other HD: related code that is also interesting is the > ability to interface the HD: device directly from user code > WITHOUT a device driver. So while the HD: is about twice > as fast as DU(X).SYS when a device driver HD(X).SYS is used, > the direct user interface (which avoids all the overhead of > a system EMT call) is about twice as fast again. For this > user interface, 32 bit blocks numbers are already possible. > > Under a Windows (YEK !! Double YEK) operating system or even > just DOS, all disk access is completed before the HD: returns > control to the RT-11 operating system. Consequently, no > interrupts are required. I am not sure about Linux operation, > but if anyone does know, please advise. > > Sincerely yours, > > Jerome Fine > > From useddec at gmail.com Sat Sep 8 22:52:30 2007 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 22:52:30 -0500 Subject: power brownout logger? In-Reply-To: <11c909eb0709080647r4d2a08a8v2d9d45af8c2d9c79@mail.gmail.com> References: <46E1D9AA.3010009@atarimuseum.com> <11c909eb0709080647r4d2a08a8v2d9d45af8c2d9c79@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <624966d60709082052r572453d6w579eabedb1495c47@mail.gmail.com> I might have a Dranetz around here that I would be willing to ship stateside (loan), but won't be able to find it for a while. When you need one, I'm not sure what else will work. I run part of my house for over 3 years now on an APC UPS, using 4000AH of 48DVDC that are charged with solar panels(PV). Most of the time I don't even know when the power goes out. Paul On 9/8/07, Pete Edwards wrote: > > On 08/09/2007, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote: > > > > Check out the UPS backups, APC has a line which I'm certain has a power > > monitoring log so you can see when the voltage sags or spikes and > > records power outages. > > > > > Use a UPS so your logs are maintained. There's some neat open source > software called NUT which will do line quality logging if the UPS supports > it. Big list of supported devices too. http://www.networkupstools.org/ > > -- > Pete Edwards > "Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future" - > Niels > Bohr > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Sep 8 23:45:49 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 22:45:49 -0600 Subject: power brownout logger? In-Reply-To: <624966d60709082052r572453d6w579eabedb1495c47@mail.gmail.com> References: <46E1D9AA.3010009@atarimuseum.com> <11c909eb0709080647r4d2a08a8v2d9d45af8c2d9c79@mail.gmail.com> <624966d60709082052r572453d6w579eabedb1495c47@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E37A7D.9050709@jetnet.ab.ca> Paul Anderson wrote: > I run part of my house for over 3 years now on an APC UPS, using 4000AH of > 48DVDC that are charged with solar panels(PV). Most of the time I don't even > know when the power goes out. Umm when it is dark outside. :) > Paul Sorry but I could not resist. Ben alias woodelf From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Sep 8 23:45:14 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 21:45:14 -0700 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <46E274BE.2934.2982D2C9@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200709060131.10531.rtellason@verizon.net>, <46E122EC.32036.245B394F@cclist.sydex.com>, <46E274BE.2934.2982D2C9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: > From: cclist at sydex.com> > On 8 Sep 2007 at 7:36, dwight elvey wrote:> > > You can still use a Z8001 because it boots to non-segmented mode> > and looks like a Z8002. The trick is to find the memory management> > chip and add it to the Z8001. One can still use the Z8001 without> > this and treat it as a Z8002. You can just ignore the segments.> > Still, if you want to get the CP/M8000 running, you'll need to> > embrace segmented code.> > I understand--and if Ciarcia had offered a full-blown OS for his > card, it might be worth exploring Z8001 segmented mode. The M20 and > even the Onyx Z8000 Unix box that I used once upon a time would be > worthwhile examples. But just to run a compile-in-place BASIC? > > The Z8000 wasn't a bad chip; it just didn't have anything going for > it that was particularly exciting. But then, neither did the 8086--> but for the massive presence and production capabilities of Intel. > To be fair, there were Z80-to-Z8000 translation tools, so one could > ostensibly port an existing application. I've got the manual for one > called TRANZ from AMC. Hi Chuck I had a chance to ask Faggin why he did finish the math coprocessor for the Z8000's. He stated that the handwriting was quite clear. The 8086 would soon dominate. I wasn't worth the effort to get the math coprocessor working. Other than the addressing, the Z8000 had a nice register arangement. It was much closer to a RISC than the 8086 ever was. > > I recall talking with the design guys from NS about the (then) 16032 > and was blown away by the ambitious design. Had they been able to > offer silicon in 1981, we would have signed with them. But it was > always "Real Soon Now". From what I heard from friends who had > attempted to use the first silicon, it was an experience that I was > better for having missed. And then there was National's typical > noncommitment to supporting any given design (IMP-16, SC/MP, PACE, > 8080, 8086...) given the way the wind was blowing at any time. > Apparently the NS32xxx series had better success overseas than it did > domestically, where I'm sure there were plenty of frustrated people > who gave up waiting on the "Real Soon Now". I still have a couple of NA2000 series boards. This was another National start and drop. These has the 800 processor as dies on a PC board with other components. One could stack the units as well. Some came with an early version of Forth in ROM as well. I had a power unit as well but I'll have to spend some serious time working on it because of the NiCad leaking. Dwight > > Cheers,> Chuck> _________________________________________________________________ Kick back and relax with hot games and cool activities at the Messenger Caf?. http://www.cafemessenger.com?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_SeptWLtagline From charlesmorris at hughes.net Sun Sep 9 09:12:56 2007 From: charlesmorris at hughes.net (Charles) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 09:12:56 -0500 Subject: Looking for some RL02 packs Message-ID: Now that I have two functioning systems (PDP-8/A running OS/8, PDP-11/23+ with RT-11XM) that have two RL02 drives each, I'm short of disk packs. I'm looking for three or four. Please let me know if you have any, and how much you want for them. I'd much prefer disks with no bad blocks at all (but at least none in the first 64 locations, or they won't be useable for OS/8). My zip is 65775 for shipping calculations... thanks Charles From lproven at gmail.com Sun Sep 9 10:04:30 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 16:04:30 +0100 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: References: <200709060131.10531.rtellason@verizon.net> <46E122EC.32036.245B394F@cclist.sydex.com> <46E274BE.2934.2982D2C9@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <575131af0709090804u63ce8580v35fbeba56f06f299@mail.gmail.com> Er. I found this difficult to follow... On 09/09/2007, dwight elvey wrote: > I had a chance to ask Faggin why he did finish the math coprocessor You mean, "didn't"? > for the Z8000's. He stated that the handwriting was quite clear. (Z8000s. No apostrophes on plurals. Not even on numbers. None, ever.) > The 8086 would soon dominate. I wasn't worth the effort to get the "It wasn't"? > math coprocessor working. > Other than the addressing, the Z8000 had a nice register arangement. ("arrangement") > It was much closer to a RISC than the 8086 ever was. > I still have a couple of NA2000 series boards. This was another National > start and drop. > These has the 800 processor as dies on a PC board with other components. ("These have".) I don't meant to nitpick - the corrections in parentheses did not impede my comprehension. The ones outside them, though, *did*. I suggest taking just a few more seconds over a post? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Sun Sep 9 10:09:34 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 16:09:34 +0100 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <200709072311.39685.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200709072311.39685.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <575131af0709090809k2437d360q379a5e0e2247b04b@mail.gmail.com> On 08/09/2007, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > On Friday 07 September 2007 14:44, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > --- Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > On 7 Sep 2007 at 12:22, Tim Shoppa wrote: > > > > I think older calculators actually do a better job > > > > than many modern calculators. > > > > > > Same goes for a lot of things nowadays. Auto radios--while a > > > passenger in a friend's new car, I asked how I would tune to a > > > certain local FM station. His answer? "I don't know--I haven't > > > figured out how to work the thing yet". > > > > > > I liked the old auto radios--two knobs; one for volume, the other for > > > tuning and a bunch of preset buttons in the middle. Pull to set, push > > > to switch. > > > > Agreed. In fact, I'm pretty sure that most people (people here, especially) > > will agree that user interfaces on devices of all kinds has gone downhill. I think that for computers, the peak was in the early to mid-1990s, when programmers got creative with buttons and toolbars and things but the marketdroids had not yet got to it and made them festoon everything with unnecessary options. > > Clearly labeled and obvious buttons and controls are a thing of the past. > > Everything now needs to be an aesthetic design element. Cars, calculators, > > hi-fi equipment, it's all turned to this mess. > > Worse yet, in those cases where the user interface is entirely done in > software ("skins") it's difficult to find something without all that crap and > that gives a basic user interface! > > > I wonder just what happened. All-encompassing function knobs, menus > > for Bass and Treble, confusing symbols, unlabeled indicator lamps - it's a > > mess. Gone is the simplicity of a switch labeled "HEADLIGHTS", replaced with > > a confusing array of symbols on a knob. > > I am getting SO tired of symbols on stuff -- just tell me WTF that does! I sympathise, but most of the world does not speak English and a lot of it can't read very well. Words need to be read, and what's more, in these days of globalisation, words need to be translated to sell abroad. Icons, pictograms and so on need no translation and little literacy. This concept is elaborated well in Neal Stephenson's /The Diamond Age/. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Sep 9 11:15:00 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 09:15:00 -0700 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? Message-ID: > From: lproven at gmail.com> > Er. I found this difficult to follow...> > On 09/09/2007, dwight elvey wrote:> > > I had a chance to ask Faggin why he did finish the math coprocessor> > You mean, "didn't"?> > > for the Z8000's. He stated that the handwriting was quite clear.> > (Z8000s. No apostrophes on plurals. Not even on numbers. None, ever.)> > > The 8086 would soon dominate. I wasn't worth the effort to get the> > "It wasn't"?> > > math coprocessor working.> > Other than the addressing, the Z8000 had a nice register arangement.> > ("arrangement")> > > It was much closer to a RISC than the 8086 ever was.> > > I still have a couple of NA2000 series boards. This was another National> > start and drop.> > These has the 800 processor as dies on a PC board with other components.> > ("These have".)> > I don't meant to nitpick - the corrections in parentheses did not> impede my comprehension. The ones outside them, though, *did*. I> suggest taking just a few more seconds over a post?> Hi Sorry about that. I usually read before sending. Some is my dyslexia while the rest was my rushing. I'm also typing on a keyboard that tends to drop characters. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Gear up for Halo? 3 with free downloads and an exclusive offer. It?s our way of saying thanks for using Windows Live?. http://gethalo3gear.com?ocid=SeptemberWLHalo3_WLHMTxt_2 From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sun Sep 9 11:34:06 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 09:34:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <575131af0709090809k2437d360q379a5e0e2247b04b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <816037.69595.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > > I am getting SO tired of symbols on stuff -- just > tell me WTF that does! > > I sympathise, but most of the world does not speak > English and a lot > of it can't read very well. Words need to be read, > and what's more, in > these days of globalisation, words need to be > translated to sell > abroad. > > Icons, pictograms and so on need no translation and > little literacy. I agree that a certain amount of symbols may be required for the language barrier problem, and the fact that they take up less space. But, I was very confused recently - I rented a truck for a trip to pick up some computer hardware. On the highway, I was struggleing to turn on the headlights. Keep in mind, this is a GMC truck - an american made vehicle. The knob for the headlights was very confusing. On the dashboard, there was a little lit up picture that looked like a headlight with dots in front fo it. Dots? WTH? The knob was labeled with some symbols: 0 - Obvious, this must be off. Little picture of a headlight with dots in front of it - no clue. Little picture of headlight with lines in front of it, angled down. - regular headlights, I assume. Little picture of headlight with lines straight ahead - high beams, I take it. Little picture of two little lights - no clue. The problem was, turning the knob to the "headlight with angled down lines" did not give me a matching indicator on the dash. Not like "headlight with dots". Turning the knob to "0" resulted in the knob springing backwards a position or two. Sometimes displaying "headlight with dots" on the dashbaord, sometimes not. For the life of me, I couldn't figure out what was wrong with the knob - why wouldn't it stick at the off position. Who in their right mind spring loads a knob? I played with it on and off on the journey. I don't know if my headlights were on or off, or what was going on. It's almost as bad on my father's van. Where the "0" position doesn't actually work half the time. If the van feels like turning the headlights on, it will. The knob serves very little purpose, other than if you really want the headlights on, you have to set it that way, because sometimes it decides that it wants to turn them off, even in the middle of the night while you're driving, and it will do so. This is in stark contrast to my Toyota. Which has a knob with three positions - Picture of headlight with lines, blank, and "OFF". The knob works, it works all the time, and it's consistant. The blank position turns on small yellow lights in the front. It's not obvious if you'd never used it, but it doesn't take control of itself, and I'm used to it. Pushing the stalk in turns on high beams. Again, not obvious, but I am used to it. Now, I would assume that something as important as headlights would have been standardized by now, but it's not. And they should really include words, (With the pictures, if they really want those damned symbols). I don't care if that means they need to make different panels for other countries. How much extra could it cost? I don't want to decypher symbols. I want simple, easily glanced at, words. Now, on an on-topic tangent. The symbols on the switches on the back of a Microvax are even more confusing. Why, on a COMPUTER of all things, couldn't they write a word, something like "AUTOBOOT", rather than this trangle/circle/dot thing? -Ian From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 9 11:41:06 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 09:41:06 -0700 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <575131af0709090804u63ce8580v35fbeba56f06f299@mail.gmail.com> References: <200709060131.10531.rtellason@verizon.net>, , <575131af0709090804u63ce8580v35fbeba56f06f299@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E3BFB2.23828.2E8F989C@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Sep 2007 at 16:04, Liam Proven wrote: > (Z8000s. No apostrophes on plurals. Not even on numbers. None, ever.) Clearly, Liam, one has to watch one's grammatical p's and q's when you're around... :) Cheers, Chuck From chris at mainecoon.com Sun Sep 9 12:17:58 2007 From: chris at mainecoon.com (Chris Kennedy) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 10:17:58 -0700 Subject: Crappy automobile user interfaces (was: Re: Wang 300 Calc) In-Reply-To: <816037.69595.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <816037.69595.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46E42AC6.1010802@mainecoon.com> Mr Ian Primus wrote: [snip] > I agree that a certain amount of symbols may be > required for the language barrier problem, and the > fact that they take up less space. But, I was very > confused recently - I rented a truck for a trip to > pick up some computer hardware. [snip] We recently had a somewhat similar situation. About a week ago we ended up renting a car for a few hours. We were eventually delivered a Nissan Altima, which was already running. As we were climbing into the car, the rental agent tossed us a keyring dongle _but no key_ and said "To start the car, hold the key to the start/stop button, then press the button". Whatever, we were in a hurry so off we went. Upon completing our appointment, we returned to the car, dutifully held dongle to button and pressed said button. 'Acc' lights on the bezel. Press again, 'On' lights on the bezel and the Tokyo-by-night disco dashboard and environmental controls come to life. Press again and...everything turns off. WTF? Fortunately the owner's manual was still in the car; buried in chapter five is disclosed that in order to start the car it must be in park or neutral (check), the parking brake set (check) and the brake peddle depressed (ah, there we go). Dongle in place, press...'acc'...press 'On'...press...start! What irked us was the fact that despite having enough chatty real estate on the dash for the car to announce useful things like "Good morning!" (literally) there was precisely zero prompting of any sort that the configuration of the controls wasn't precisely what it wanted in order to cause that third button press to take the 'start' arc rather than the 'stop' arc. Driving back to the airport it occurred to us that there were other problems with this little dongle. It's an active device, so if the battery goes dead you have to stick it into a hidden "docking port" in order to start the car. Unfortunately, if the battery is dead and the doors are locked you can't get into the car in the first place. The manufacturer recognized that flaw and provides normal key locks in the doors, but the rental company doesn't provide keys because "they're not needed". Then there's nifty secondary effects; for example the steering column lock is electrically actuated so low/no bus voltage translates into "you can't unlock the steering". In the end we were left with the distinct feeling that this was one of those ideas that fell out of Marketing; further, regardless of the genesis of the concept it's a very bad idea for the user interface of a rental car to differ significantly from the mainstream. -- Chris Kennedy chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97 PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E1 20A3 108D AB97 "Mr. McKittrick, after careful consideration..." From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Sep 9 12:30:48 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 10:30:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <816037.69595.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <816037.69595.qm@web52707.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20070909102832.G74198@shell.lmi.net> On Sun, 9 Sep 2007, Mr Ian Primus wrote: > dashboard, there was a little lit up picture that > looked like a headlight with dots in front fo it. > Dots? WTH? The knob was labeled with some symbols: That is the control for the shower. Find the one with the picture of Towelie, first. In Microsoft Weird, what does the little picture of a brick do? or the building on its side? From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 9 12:28:41 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 10:28:41 -0700 Subject: Moto MVME121 paper Message-ID: <46E3CAD9.19003.2EBB26DD@cclist.sydex.com> Under the heading of "where did *that* come from?", I've stumbled on a loose leaf binder from Motorola titled "MVME121 System Hardware Manual". There are several publications within, but the bulk of the binder's taken up by a document called "MVME319 Intelligent Disk/Tape Controller User's Manual", which contains all sorts of detail, including principles of operation, command layouts and schematics. Circa 1986. A customer must've sent it to me; I have no use for it. Anyone want it for the cost of shipping? Cheers, Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Sep 9 12:41:36 2007 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight elvey) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 10:41:36 -0700 Subject: Wang 300 Calc Message-ID: > From: lproven at gmail.com ---snip---> > Icons, pictograms and so on need no translation and little literacy.> > This concept is elaborated well in Neal Stephenson's /The Diamond Age/.> The problem is that even pictorial icons require context. They are as useless as another language if the user can't determine what the symbol refers to. I'm entering on a Windows Live mail tool. About the only symbol that makes any sense is the closed envelope. Others I recognize because I use them often. I could just as easily have learned Chinese symbols for these functions. As reference, read Jef Raskin's ( note: proper use this time ) book. Making universal symbols is just as limiting and using language. In many cases worse. It was a nice idea that just wasn't based on fact. Now we are all stuck with it. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Gear up for Halo? 3 with free downloads and an exclusive offer. It?s our way of saying thanks for using Windows Live?. http://gethalo3gear.com?ocid=SeptemberWLHalo3_WLHMTxt_2 From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Sep 9 13:01:25 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 14:01:25 -0400 Subject: VT103 (was Re: Reviving DEC RX01 power supply) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46E434F5.3040806@compsys.to> >Ethan Dicks wrote: >>At one even shorter period of time, the VT103 backplane had a >>PDP-11/73 quad CPU, 4 MB of memory, DHV11 and a Sigma RQD11-EC >>controller that supported FOUR * 600 MB ESDI Hitachi hard drives >>although it was essential that all of the hard drives were placed >>OUTSIDE the VT103 since each required its own fan and all of the >>hard drives and their fans also used a separate external power >>supply. >> >Wow... that's a lotta stuff for a VT103. > Jerome Fine replies: The "lotta stuff" was there only for a very short demonstration to show it could be done. At the time, the "lotta" stuff" was worth far more in a BA123 with triple the number of boards, although those same Hitachi hard drives were used there as well. >I have a VT103 up in the attic. I _might_ be able to squeeze a VT100 >case somewhere in my office... these days, though, I'd go with a 3.5" >SCSI drive and a Qbus SCSI controller. The real question is, what to >choose for CPU and memory. I could easily pull a KDF11B from the >shelf, add a meg or two on a quad-height board, and between those >three boards, have a running system. What I think I'd prefer, though, >is something with a KDJ11. > >So presuming one is starting from the assumption that you have a VT103 >and a Qbus SCSI controller, what are good choices for the remainder of >the system? One can assume that 1MB is minimum, but 4MB wouldn't be >unwarranted. I kinda fell off the PDP-11 cart in the KDJ11 era, so >I'm not as conversant with what's out there, but ISTR that there's the >dual-height KDJ11A, and there must be a quad-height KDJ11 of some >flavor, with a variety of common accessories, but I couldn't quote >chapter and verse. > >I have an 11/53-level KDJ11 board from a DEC comms controller, with >-11 ROMs installed, but it still has S-box handles, and only has, >IIRC, 1MB on it. I'm thinking that any sort of 11/83 or 11/93 board >is probably going to be priced out of my range, but I'm willing to >entertain the idea. I really don't _need_ the speed of an 11/83 or >11/93, but 4MB on board is attractive (if I've got my boards right). > >Anyone else have any ideas on how to trick out a VT103? > Probably the first step is to add 22 bit address support to the backplane. That requires a steady hand with a soldering iron and probably is best done with old lead solder since the added wires will be attached to solder points that already have lead solder. In any case, almost no additional solder is needed. About the best wire to use is wire-wrap since it is thin, but very sturdy. Keep all the insulation except for the 6 mid points where the wire must be soldered to the existing backplane. 4 wires with 8 connections each are all that is required. If you require help locating the solder points, I can look at one of the VT103 backplanes that have been modified. Fortunately, DEC never attempted to use a PDP-11/03, so the 4 address lines at not attached to anything else - like power. And having mentioned power, it is possible to solder wires to the backplane 5V and 12V that can then be used to power a hard disk drive. Any 3.5" SCSI hard drive can be supported, but the less power needed the better. The VT103 power supply has a maximum draw on the 5V of just 16 Amps, so be careful. Back when all of that work was first being done, an ST412 (actually an old RD51) 5 1/4" hard disk drive was available and could be just barely squeezed under the tube. However, an RQDX1,2 was out of the question since they require 6 Amps for the 5V. An RQDX3 is probably OK when used with a quad CPU like the M8189 or the M8190 (since there are no boot ROMs on any RQDXn controller). I guess that you could type in a boot program (if you don't do it too often) using hardware ODT - it takes about 5 minutes. Either a dual or a quad KDJ11 can be used. Almost EVERY quad KDJ11 is really the same as a PDP-11/83 except for the 18 MHz crystal. And since you can't use PMI memory without further modification of the first 2 slots to add ABCD like the first 3 slots on a BA23, it seems that you are stuck with an ordinary PDP-11/73. Most VT103 systems came with a paddle card that was intended to be used with a DLV11-J and a dual PDP-11 Qbus card. The paddle card connected the terminal and keyboard to the 4th channel on the DLV11-J that was then strapped as consol and the normal 25 pin serial connector on the back could then be connected to a second serial channel on the DLV11-J (and probably sent to a serial line printer). As for the SCSI host adapter, if it has boot ROMs (most third party DEC MSCP SCSI host adapters do), then you can easily use a dual M8192 with a DLV11-J as the serial interface. Add memory and you are in business - after you load the SCSI hard drive with files. In most cases, an RX23 (3 1/2" HD floppy) can be attached to the SCSI host adapter which can then be used to transfer small file. In addition, if you can find an Iomega SCSI insider, they support 100 MB replaceable media. Since both replaceable media drives can also be attached to a PC running E11, that can serve as your source for files. Of course, E11 will also allow your SCSI hard drives, but Windows is extremely difficult to convince (I have done it - ask if you want the details) that there is a SCSI hard drive that has an RT-11 file structure. And finally, ask Zane about what you need to connect a CDROM drive to your SCSI host adapter on the PDP-11. On the PC side, I think that E11 will recognize a DVD drive with a CD and it is possible to burn a CD on the PC with an RT-11 file structure, although I will have to recall the details of how the actual burn was done from the file of the CD image. Can I answer any other questions? Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Sep 9 13:02:07 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 14:02:07 -0400 Subject: Does anyone use RT-11? In-Reply-To: <624966d60709082036x10aa5473qb9b53862d0f27d1a@mail.gmail.com> References: <46E19C3C.5060709@compsys.to> <624966d60709082036x10aa5473qb9b53862d0f27d1a@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E4351F.4040207@compsys.to> >Paul Anderson wrote: >I hope to have it running on an 11/05 and a 11/34 late this year' > > Jerome Fine replies: Yes that seems to be the goal, but what will you do with RT-11 at that point? If playing games is the objective, then RT-11 is not really being used except to start the process. Based on the few responses, I guess that no one is writing any programs, let alone modifying any utilities. And almost certainly, no one seems to be modifying device drivers or the operating system itself. If anyone is actually interested in that aspect, please let me know. Tim also sent a short reply which was very appreciated. However his job and family commitments are such that Tim no longer has any time to give to RT-11. But any help in locating old source files would be appreciated. I have been unable to locate the most recent source code for SDX.SYS which places most of the code and data in high memory. Also missing is the most recent source code for MACRO-11. The Y2K source code modifications would also be interesting, but are not extensive. One interesting (and almost trivial) modification to the operating system is support for READ ONLY files. The resident monitor requires modifications in only a couple of areas to support READ ONLY files. However, DIR and PIP require far more - is anyone interested? Probably the user visual interface is the most easily decided. Protected files are shown by DIR with a "P" beside the file name. If the file is READ ONLY, then an "R" can be used. I suggest using "r" (lower case) when the file is both READ ONLY and Protected. Does anyone have any other suggestions - other than using TWO characters as with "PR"? When two files are displayed per line (as is the normal case) and the starting block numbers are included, 40 characters per file description is just too limited and more than 80 characters per line is not recommended. Now that the year requires 4 digits, there is not enough room for even 2 more characters on the line. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Sep 9 13:13:05 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 13:13:05 -0500 Subject: VT103 (was Re: Reviving DEC RX01 power supply) In-Reply-To: <46E434F5.3040806@compsys.to> References: <46E434F5.3040806@compsys.to> Message-ID: On 9/9/07, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Ethan Dicks wrote: > >I have a VT103 up in the attic... > > Probably the first step is to add 22 bit address support > to the backplane. That requires a steady hand with a > soldering iron and probably is best done with old lead > solder since the added wires will be attached to solder > points that already have lead solder. Naturally. > In any case, almost > no additional solder is needed. About the best wire to use > is wire-wrap since it is thin, but very sturdy. Keep all > the insulation except for the 6 mid points where the > wire must be soldered to the existing backplane. 4 wires > with 8 connections each are all that is required. If you > require help locating the solder points, I can look at one > of the VT103 backplanes that have been modified. Fortunately, > DEC never attempted to use a PDP-11/03, so the 4 address > lines at not attached to anything else - like power. I have upgraded backplanes in the past. I found the easiest way to do it was to use recycled DEC backplane power strips - bits of thin metal that have a small (pin-sized hole) alternating with a larger hole that misses the next pin. I recovered some from a PDP-8/L that arrived to me with broken backplane. DEC used to sell it as a separate item for customers who were working with foundation modules and such. I don't know where I'd get it now. > ... However, an RQDX1,2 > was out of the question since they require 6 Amps for > the 5V. An RQDX3 is probably OK when used with a quad > CPU like the M8189 or the M8190 (since there are no > boot ROMs on any RQDXn controller). I guess that you > could type in a boot program (if you don't do it too often) > using hardware ODT - it takes about 5 minutes. I was already presuming a SCSI interface. > Either a dual or a quad KDJ11 can be used. Almost EVERY > quad KDJ11 is really the same as a PDP-11/83 except for > the 18 MHz crystal. And since you can't use PMI memory > without further modification of the first 2 slots to add > ABCD like the first 3 slots on a BA23, it seems that you > are stuck with an ordinary PDP-11/73. True enough. I was more thinking of the advanced processors (11/93?) for any onboard memory, not for PMI. > Most VT103 systems came with a paddle card that was intended > to be used with a DLV11-J and a dual PDP-11 Qbus card. The > paddle card connected the terminal and keyboard to the 4th > channel on the DLV11-J that was then strapped as consol > and the normal 25 pin serial connector on the back could > then be connected to a second serial channel on the DLV11-J > (and probably sent to a serial line printer). I do not have this card, but do know about it, and have been looking for one, casually, for 20 years. > Since both replaceable media drives can also > be attached to a PC running E11... We work in different worlds... I'd be doing any off-line prep work with Simh and Linux. > Can I answer any other questions? Since I'm not likely to be attempting this for a year or two (after getting back from another winter at Pole), I'll probably ask questions as they come up. For now, though, I can easily put together a KDF11 system, so I'll probably start there. I was just interested in what I might need to put together a SCSI-based KDJ11 system with 4MB. -ethan From RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk Fri Sep 7 03:07:27 2007 From: RodSmallwood at mail.ediconsulting.co.uk (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2007 09:07:27 +0100 Subject: power brownout logger? Message-ID: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA94@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> Well I would call it a data logger. Some DPM (Digital Panel Meters) have RS232 (or 458 balanced line) outputs. They can be set for one output per second. Just capture and store. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of woodelf Sent: 07 September 2007 00:23 To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: power brownout logger? Richard wrote: > Sorry if this is a little off-topic, but after hunting around on the > net I couldn't find the right search term to find what I'm looking > for. > > OK, my power company sucks. I have brownouts and power outages all > too frequently. Yet when I look at the statistics recorded by the > public utilities commission, it seems obvious to me that they aren't > showing an accurate record of what happens at my house. > > So I'm looking for a device (I'm fairly certain I've seen these > before) that I plug into a wall outlet and it keeps a log of voltage > sags, brownouts and outages. Then I can use this to build a > reliability profile of my power company as raw data to compete with > their b.s. line that its never their fault when my power constantly > sucks. > > Any suggestions? check here. http://www.sparetimegizmos.com/ From derschjo at msu.edu Sat Sep 8 00:23:07 2007 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 22:23:07 -0700 Subject: 68k Mac development environments In-Reply-To: <46E230EE.4020200@hawkmountain.net> References: <46DE1639.6080400@msu.edu> <575131af0709061830v20296713m7ba5a565dd8e3964@mail.gmail.com> <46E0E5A5.1000205@msu.edu> <46E230EE.4020200@hawkmountain.net> Message-ID: <46E231BB.8060205@msu.edu> Curtis H. Wilbar Jr. wrote: > Josh Dersch wrote: >> Liam Proven wrote: >>> On 05/09/07, Josh Dersch wrote: >>> >>>> Hi all -- >>>> >>>> I'm looking to do a bit of (simple) development targeting a 68k Mac >>>> (or >>>> two, or three, or six...) and since I've never done any programming >>>> on a >>>> Mac before I'm curious if anyone out there has any recommendations >>>> for a >>>> development environment to use or to avoid. I'd prefer C/C++, but I'm >>>> flexible :). I'd like to be able to run my code on a Mac >>>> Classic/SE (so >>>> I need to be able to compile to 68000 code) but I'll be doing the >>>> development itself on a IIfx. >>>> >>>> In case you're interested, I'm writing the software to build a >>>> clock of >>>> sorts out of a set of six "classic" form factor Macs I have lying >>>> around >>>> (two Classics, two SEs and two SE/30s). Each computer will display >>>> one >>>> digit of the time, and will be synchronized over an Appletalk >>>> network to >>>> keep the system times in sync. Or so goes the theory. Figure >>>> it'll be >>>> a fun display to have set up, and a somewhat interesting use for some >>>> otherwise-idle Macintosh hardware :). >>>> >>> >>> That is a really cool idea, which I like a lot. >>> >>> I am sure you're aware of it, but it instantly brought to mind the >>> story of Jamie Zawinski's Dali clock and getting it running on various >>> elderly Macs... >>> >>> http://www.jwz.org/gruntle/dali.html >>> >>> >> Thanks for the vote of support :). I think most of the code should >> be dead simple but I'm not sure how the time-sync networking >> portion's going to go. I also need to pick up some serial Appletalk >> cabling; the SEs and the SE/30s have ethernet cards, but the Classics >> are unexpandable and thus do not. Maybe I can just find some more >> SEs to use :). > > time sync ? only one needs to tell time :-) ... the rest just need to > display > the remainder of the digits... > > Either use messages over the appletalk of what to display... or treat > each > computer 'up' the chain like a dumb mechanical counter.... > > call the boxes H1, H2, M1, M2, S1, S2.... S2 tells the time... when it > rolls over to > zero it sends a 'tick' to S1... S1 knows its 'position', so when it > rolls over from 5 > to 0, it sends a tick to M2.... and up the 'ticking' goes. > > Either way would be 'fun' :-) > > -- Curt > The former's basically what I was planning on doing. The "challenge" I spoke of is that I'm new to programming the Mac and new to Appletalk so I need to dig into what it'll take to write client/server code for "distributing" the time amongst the machines :). I've found all the requisite documentation, it's just a matter of sitting down and digging into it now... - Josh From derschjo at msu.edu Sat Sep 8 02:51:13 2007 From: derschjo at msu.edu (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 08 Sep 2007 00:51:13 -0700 Subject: Looking for BA23 "back door" & MicroVAX II memory interconnect cable Message-ID: <46E25471.5000700@msu.edu> Hi all -- Title says it all -- I have a BA23 enclosure (soon to contain a MicroVAX II) that's missing the door that covers the card cage (not sure what the "official" name for this part is). Right now all the patch panels for the console and ethernet are left dangling and I'd love to have something to anchor them to :). I'm also looking for a memory interconnect cable to connect two M7609 memory boards to the CPU, but I can probably build one of those myself if push comes to shove. Anyone have these parts for sale/trade? Thanks in advance, - Josh From ddsnyder at zoominternet.net Sat Sep 8 16:54:46 2007 From: ddsnyder at zoominternet.net (Dan Snyder) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 17:54:46 -0400 Subject: DEC Alphaserver 800 front panel doors Message-ID: <002a01c7f262$dee64c20$6801a8c0@intel1gmmc> Anyone have a Alphaserver 800 front bezel or front doors for $$ or trade? From lynchaj at yahoo.com Sat Sep 8 18:00:22 2007 From: lynchaj at yahoo.com (Andrew Lynch) Date: Sat, 8 Sep 2007 19:00:22 -0400 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever Message-ID: <000001c7f26c$0997c6c0$a903a8c0@andrewdesktop> >Roy J. Tellason rtellason at verizon.net >Fri Sep 7 22:49:03 CDT 2007 > >So I was poking around at bitsavers after snagging those TI databooks, and >stumbled across some files pertaining to TurboDOS. I'd read about that [snip] Roy, The NorthStar Horizon ran TurboDOS and there were special versions of the Horizon specifically to run multiuser applications. The manuals are available here: http://www.hartetechnologies.com/manuals/Northstar/ I think Dave Dunfield has some TurboDOS disk images on his site: http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/index.htm I suppose in theory you could boot his Horizon simulator with the TurboDOS images and use the manuals to experiment with it. If you really want to use real hardware, you could either buy one of the specially modified Horizons or just upgrade a normal one. I have seen the Horizon multi serial port and the "slave processor" cards on Ebay from time to time. Thanks and I wish you the best of luck with your search. I hope this helps. Andrew Lynch From gordon at gjcp.net Sun Sep 9 04:22:03 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 10:22:03 +0100 Subject: Does anyone use RT-11? In-Reply-To: References: <200709072207.l87M73wR024741@onyx.spiritone.com> Message-ID: <1189329723.842.1.camel@elric> On Fri, 2007-09-07 at 17:15 -0500, Ethan Dicks wrote: > I really did see a commercial copy, printed package and all, hanging > on a peg. It's one of those things that I'm regretting that I didn't > purchase, but, as I said, at the time, I only had a 4K PDP-8, and > merely lusted after a *POWERFUL* PDP-11 ;-) I'm sure we can all contribute to a Jay-annoying massively off-topic thread of stories of stuff we nearly bought. Mine ends with "And the thing is I had 50 quid on me at the time, they're worth ten times that now..." Gordon From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Sep 9 13:39:45 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 14:39:45 -0400 Subject: Apple boot disks? Message-ID: <30904C61-CEAD-4723-BEEC-5823E39BC2A3@neurotica.com> Is there anyone here with a running Apple ][-class system who would be willing to cut some boot floppies of Apple DOS 3.3 and/or ProDOS and send them to me? I finally got a good composite video monitor and I'm in need of a diversion. This would be for a ][+ and a //e. Thanks, -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Sep 9 13:46:59 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 14:46:59 -0400 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <20070907154806.4E268FB8E0@mac-mini.local> References: <20070907154806.4E268FB8E0@mac-mini.local> Message-ID: On Sep 7, 2007, at 12:01 PM, Bernd Kopriva wrote: >>>> Steve Ciarcia did a Z8000 card as a project in BYTE, called Trump >>>> Card. >>> >>> Ahhh, >>> i'm looking for this one for quite some years now ... >>> ... even Steve dropped his own inventory some years too early :( > >> Looking for the card?? Why not just build one? It was a >> construction article, after all. > > ... my fingers are all thumbs when it comes to hardware > development. I'm more > interested in "low level" programming This would hardly be "development"; nearly everything in the Trump Card design is readily available and easy to find, with the possible exception of the Z8581 clock generator. All you need is a bunch of parts, a blank ISA prototyping board, a wire-wrap gun, and some time! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Sep 9 14:24:43 2007 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 12:24:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Atari Portfolio won't shut off Message-ID: <200709091924.l89JOhfG010400@floodgap.com> Or more to the point, it won't *stay* off -- I type Fn-O and it blinks off for a second or two, then comes right back on. Anyone have an easy fix for this? Warm and cold resetting the unit didn't work. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Once used rectally, [it] should not be used orally. --Real thermometer label From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Sep 9 14:47:46 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 15:47:46 -0400 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <46E15069.20730.250CEC27@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200709060131.10531.rtellason@verizon.net>, <46E122EC.32036.245B394F@cclist.sydex.com>, <46E19AC5.9060707@jetnet.ab.ca> <46E15069.20730.250CEC27@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sep 7, 2007, at 4:21 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> Too bad IBM sold the WRONG PC. Some sort of LAB computer IBM made >> had a 68000 I think. > > Ah, the IBM CS9000 "instrument computer". It was announced shortly > before the 5150 and had a few people speculating that the 5150 would > be 68K based also. Sadly, no: > > http://www.columbia.edu/acis/history/cs9000.html > > But the aesthetics were terrible... Wow...I think it's gorgeous, myself! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Sep 9 14:53:56 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 15:53:56 -0400 Subject: Data General Nova 4 needs a new home In-Reply-To: <288920.96310.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <288920.96310.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <7B72B6CA-3F18-4035-9987-EF89850AB749@neurotica.com> On Sep 8, 2007, at 6:27 AM, Mr Ian Primus wrote: >> Here's an update. It doesn't have a paper tape >> reader, but it does have >> an 8-inch floppy drive and lots of serial ports. >> The Nova needs to be >> gone by the 24th of this month at the absolute >> latest -- preferable >> sooner. Pictures can be seen at >> http://frotz.homeunix.org/tmp/nova/. > > I really, really, really wish I were close enough. Why > is all the good stuff on the other side of the > country! Someone buy this beautiful machine! Yeah, my sentiments exactly. :-( Sometimes I think the oldest hardware in Florida (aside from mine) is a few 486 boxes. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Sep 9 15:00:34 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 16:00:34 -0400 Subject: what's this? In-Reply-To: <573007.89716.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> References: <573007.89716.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sep 8, 2007, at 2:44 PM, Chris M wrote: >> Chris, please just post the item number for these >> things or use >> TinyURL or the like for the links. The darned eBay >> links wrap >> several lines in my email reader and require me to >> dig the number out >> manually. > > I'll try. I have a fundamental opposition to the tiny > thing, cuz yer never know what yer clicking on. > Granted I've undoubtedly won the trust of everyone on > this list (muahahahahahahaha). Why the worry about never knowing what you're clicking on? If you're worried about viruses, you're using a computing platform that's unsuitable for networked applications. If you're worried about accidentally seeing some bizarre bestiality porn, you need to just grow a pair and click the "close" button. 'Tis just that simple. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu Sun Sep 9 15:12:13 2007 From: dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 13:12:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: MacCon driver disk Message-ID: Does someone here have the driver disk for a Maccon MC+30IET64 ethernet board? I would very much like to have an image of this disk so I can get my Mac SE/30 networked. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu From doc at mdrconsult.com Sun Sep 9 15:18:12 2007 From: doc at mdrconsult.com (Doc Shipley) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 15:18:12 -0500 Subject: what's this? In-Reply-To: References: <573007.89716.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46E45504.8010604@mdrconsult.com> Dave McGuire wrote: > On Sep 8, 2007, at 2:44 PM, Chris M wrote: > Why the worry about never knowing what you're clicking on? If you're > worried about viruses, you're using a computing platform that's > unsuitable for networked applications. If you're worried about > accidentally seeing some bizarre bestiality porn, you need to just grow > a pair and click the "close" button. 'Tis just that simple. And if you're on dialup, or even EVDO, waiting for an eBay page to load and finding that you're totally uninterested is the pits. Basic mailing list etiquette. If I post a URL, it's just *polite* to post a 10-word description. Even more simple. Doc From classiccmp.org at stellar.eclipse.co.uk Sun Sep 9 16:14:30 2007 From: classiccmp.org at stellar.eclipse.co.uk (Stroller) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 22:14:30 +0100 Subject: Tiny URL (was: what's this?) In-Reply-To: <573007.89716.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> References: <573007.89716.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 8 Sep 2007, at 19:44, Chris M wrote: > ... > I'll try. I have a fundamental opposition to the tiny > thing, cuz yer never know what yer clicking on. > Granted I've undoubtedly won the trust of everyone on > this list (muahahahahahahaha). If you go to it sets a cookie on your browser; thereafter everytime you click on a tiny URL it takes you to a "preview" page first, shows you the full URL and invites you to click on it. Stroller. From rivie at ridgenet.net Sun Sep 9 16:54:43 2007 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 14:54:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VT103 (was Re: Reviving DEC RX01 power supply) In-Reply-To: <46E434F5.3040806@compsys.to> References: <46E434F5.3040806@compsys.to> Message-ID: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > unwarranted. I kinda fell off the PDP-11 cart in the KDJ11 era, so > I'm not as conversant with what's out there... I knew a fellow who claimed to have build a MicroVAX II in a VT103. I never saw it and don't know the details, but I believed him. He was some sort of meta-service guy at DEC (i.e., he got called when the normal service guys couldn't figure it out) and I think the machine was on the DEC internal network. IIRC (and I might not), his name was Ozzie Perez and the node name was OZZIE:: -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Sep 9 17:04:20 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 16:04:20 -0600 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <575131af0709090809k2437d360q379a5e0e2247b04b@mail.gmail.com> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <200709072311.39685.rtellason@verizon.net> <575131af0709090809k2437d360q379a5e0e2247b04b@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E46DE4.6070603@jetnet.ab.ca> Liam Proven wrote: > I sympathise, but most of the world does not speak English and a lot > of it can't read very well. Words need to be read, and what's more, in > these days of globalisation, words need to be translated to sell > abroad. I play some Japanese Games -- English Words often are used as Current/ Futuristic details not in text, but in the graphics shown. > Icons, pictograms and so on need no translation and little literacy. But the problem with Icons is that they are culture specfic. + This may be a FAN in the USA. V This is a FAN in Japan. > This concept is elaborated well in Neal Stephenson's /The Diamond Age/. > All I want to know is the A/C on in the summer? :) Ben alias woodelf From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Sep 9 18:14:54 2007 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 16:14:54 -0700 Subject: Steven Spielberg's father and the IBM 1800/1130 Message-ID: <46E47E6E.6010305@bitsavers.org> Interesting bit of trivia I discovered today. I was digitizing an oral history recorded in Mar 1988 with Arnie Spielberg today, and it turns out he was the architect of the 1800/1130 at IBM San Jose before becoming VP of Engineering at SDS in 1965. A transcript will be up on the CHM web site eventually, and will post a URL when it's available. From useddec at gmail.com Sun Sep 9 18:59:29 2007 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 18:59:29 -0500 Subject: DEC RF and RZ drives and more Message-ID: <624966d60709091659r27aab879w4a719b5e7853f075@mail.gmail.com> > > I just found a hige supply of drives, and have to move them before the C-4 > goes off. I hope to be rebuilt by thanksgiving. Please contact meoff list. > > Thanks, Paul > > From tpeters at mixcom.com Fri Sep 7 13:05:27 2007 From: tpeters at mixcom.com (Tom Peters) Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 13:05:27 -0500 Subject: Adaptec ACB2002(a) Controller Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070907120249.0da2cec8@localhost> Adaptec ACB2002(a) Controller I think this was an ISA MFM controller Jumper settings: Adaptec ACB2002(a) Controller Card Drive Type Table: Type Head Cyl E.G. 0 2 612 Miniscribe 3012 1 2 306 Syquest 306 2 4 480 Miniscribe 4020 3 4 306 Seagate ST-412 Jumper Settings Tables: Drive 0: Drive 1: Type Inst Remove Type Inst Remove 0 MNOP 0 QRST 1 MN OP 1 QR ST 2 OP MN 2 ST QR 3 MNOP 3 QRST ----- 986. Everything that can be invented has been invented. -- Charles H. Duell, Commissioner, U.S. Office of Patents, 1899 --... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -... tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio) "HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters 43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square EN53wc WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531 From lproven at gmail.com Sun Sep 9 21:34:58 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 03:34:58 +0100 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <575131af0709091934s11b9b63dpc589fea18cf8ee2d@mail.gmail.com> On 09/09/07, dwight elvey wrote: > > > From: lproven at gmail.com> > Er. I found this difficult to follow...> > On 09/09/2007, dwight elvey wrote:> > > I had a chance to ask Faggin why he did finish the math coprocessor> > You mean, "didn't"?> > > for the Z8000's. He stated that the handwriting was quite clear.> > (Z8000s. No apostrophes on plurals. Not even on numbers. None, ever.)> > > The 8086 would soon dominate. I wasn't worth the effort to get the> > "It wasn't"?> > > math coprocessor working.> > Other than the addressing, the Z8000 had a nice register arangement.> > ("arrangement")> > > It was much closer to a RISC than the 8086 ever was.> > > I still have a couple of NA2000 series boards. This was another National> > start and drop.> > These has the 800 processor as dies on a PC board with other components.> > ("These have".)> > I don't meant to nitpick - the corrections in parentheses did not> impede my comprehension. The ones outside them, though, *did*. I> suggest taking just a few more seconds over a post?> > Hi > Sorry about that. I usually read before sending. Some is my dyslexia while > the rest was my rushing. I'm also typing on a keyboard that tends to > drop characters. Ahhhh. Hope I didn't come over as too arsey... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From cclist at sydex.com Sun Sep 9 22:02:57 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 20:02:57 -0700 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <46E46DE4.6070603@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <575131af0709090809k2437d360q379a5e0e2247b04b@mail.gmail.com>, <46E46DE4.6070603@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com> On 9 Sep 2007 at 16:04, woodelf wrote: > But the problem with Icons is that they are culture specfic. > + This may be a FAN in the USA. > V This is a FAN in Japan. > > This concept is elaborated well in Neal Stephenson's /The Diamond Age/. Keeping things on-vintage, when were icons first used on PeeCee hardware? I have to admit that I'm another one who's mystified by icons; unless they're part of some very specialized application. Such as in musical transcription software, where an eighth note (quaver for you in the UK) means just that--to write it out in words would take longer to interpret than "You want an eighth note? Just click on the eighth note." "Sixty-fourth note" or "hemidemisemiquaver" is just too cumbersome. Cheers, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Sep 9 22:20:26 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 23:20:26 -0400 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <46E122EC.32036.245B394F@cclist.sydex.com> References: <200709060131.10531.rtellason@verizon.net>, <20070907074521.A12DCFB778@mac-mini.local> <46E122EC.32036.245B394F@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <08BA91E9-F1E4-4FA5-9741-350E430BF6E2@neurotica.com> On Sep 7, 2007, at 1:07 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > If one wanted to goof around with the Z8000 family as a coprocessor > card, I'd be sore tempted to wire up something with a Z8002 and 64K > of SRAM. You get the instructions without the expense and you don't > have to deal with the (awful) Z8000 segmented mode. And relatively > easy to do a lashup. Instead of Ciarcia's bucket, you could probably > do with a single Z8036. Fit the whole thing on a "short" card. I would love to do that. Actually, even more than that, I'd really like to put together a Z8000-based SBC with some dialect of Forth in ROM. I have a few Z16C02 and Z8536 chips here that might be well-suited to that purpose. > IMOHO, only Motorola and NS of all of the "16 bit" chip producers > ever understood the importance of a continuous non-segmented memory > space. Given the time of introduction, I consider the 68K to be a > marvel of MPU design. Too bad IBM didn't adopt it for the PC. ...a bad decision for which the world is still paying the price. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From mcguire at neurotica.com Sun Sep 9 22:23:16 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 23:23:16 -0400 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: <200709072349.03888.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <200709072349.03888.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Sep 7, 2007, at 11:49 PM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > Unfortunately instead of RS232 Televideo has something else going > there > (RS422?), not easy to interface too, and they distribute their > "network" > out amongst what other Televideo boxes you have, which in my case > is none. > I guess with an S-100-based system you could always add more > cards, and > somehow or other make it work. They were RS422 if memory serves. I worked at a computer store when I was in high school, from 1984 to 1986...we used one of those Televideo distributed CP/M-ish systems (810?) there, for store operations/POS/inventory stuff. It worked very well and was reliable, but it wasn't very fast. Our POS and inventory system was written in CBASIC-80. It was good stuff. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From wmaddox at pacbell.net Sun Sep 9 22:38:36 2007 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 20:38:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Steven Spielberg's father and the IBM 1800/1130 In-Reply-To: <46E47E6E.6010305@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <380722.20158.qm@web82601.mail.mud.yahoo.com> He was apparently at the GE Computer Division in the early days, and designed one of GE's process control computers, and was previously working for RCA on the Bizmac program. See Homer R. Oldfield, "King of the Seven Dwarfs: General Electric's Ambiguous Challenge to the Computer Industry", IEEE Computer Society Press, 1996. --- Al Kossow wrote: > Interesting bit of trivia I discovered today. > > I was digitizing an oral history recorded in Mar > 1988 with > Arnie Spielberg today, and it turns out he was the > architect > of the 1800/1130 at IBM San Jose before becoming VP > of Engineering > at SDS in 1965. > > A transcript will be up on the CHM web site > eventually, and will > post a URL when it's available. From ian_primus at yahoo.com Sun Sep 9 22:49:46 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2007 20:49:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Symbols on computers (was: Wang 300 Calc) In-Reply-To: <46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <439218.60892.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > Keeping things on-vintage, when were icons first > used on PeeCee > hardware? > Well, I'm not sure about PeeCee's, but I have complained before about the icons used on the MicroVax switches. They don't make too much sense, and simple words would have been MUCH better. I'm sorry, but it's hard to design a picture that means "Halt at the Chevron, don't boot automatically" I know that on early clones, indicators were clearly marked. "POWER", "DISK", etc. Later, cheaper machines went to a little picture of a stack of platters for disk activity. Macintosh computers fairly early on used symbols, and the "Programmer's Switch" option featured some confusing little pictures to represent what should have been labeled "RESET" and "INTERRUPT". We are at a point where the indicator for POWER is universal as being a picture of a zero with a one in it. I don't remember that being used on early machines - the power switch was typically marked with a 1 and a 0 (of course, they were real switches too, none of this soft-power stuff). And pushbuttons were typically labeled with 1/0. Anyone know when this symbol got established? -Ian From zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com Sun Sep 9 15:22:12 2007 From: zmerch-cctalk at 30below.com (Roger Merchberger) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 16:22:12 -0400 Subject: what's this? In-Reply-To: References: <573007.89716.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> <573007.89716.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5.1.0.14.2.20070909160807.03ac42f8@mail.30below.com> Rumor has it that Dave McGuire may have mentioned these words: >On Sep 8, 2007, at 2:44 PM, Chris M wrote: >>>Chris, please just post the item number for these >>>things or use >>>TinyURL or the like for the links. The darned eBay >>>links wrap >>>several lines in my email reader and require me to >>>dig the number out >>>manually. >> >> I'll try. I have a fundamental opposition to the tiny >>thing, cuz yer never know what yer clicking on. >>Granted I've undoubtedly won the trust of everyone on >>this list (muahahahahahahaha). You'll try? What's so hard to take this: http://cgi.ebay.com/Tandy-200-48k-dual-bank-RAM-module-not-Model-100-102_W0QQitemZ290157890837QQihZ019QQcategoryZ74947QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem and trim it down to: http://cgi.ebay.com/_W0QQitemZ290157890837 ??? [[ Simple instructions in Engrish: Trim all between last slash & first underscore, then trim all after item number. ]] Unless you're viewing the link on the aforementioned Tandy 200 (which would then only wrap by 2 characters) I seriously doubt there's a MUA that would have a problem with the latter URL. > Why the worry about never knowing what you're clicking on? If >you're worried about viruses, you're using a computing platform >that's unsuitable for networked applications. Aren't we all? [[ read: who here actually read the list on their OS/2, VMS, MVS/XA, etc. machines? IINM, there are a few viruses for MacOS, Linux & friends... and at least a proof-of concept boot-sector virus written in x86 assembly that can infect anything running x86 no matter what OS, I believe... ]] > If you're worried >about accidentally seeing some bizarre bestiality porn, you need to >just grow a pair and click the "close" button. Something tells me if there someone were to post a link to such a site, Jay would 1) have a conniption, then 2) ban said induhvidual and post a warning WRT the link. > 'Tis just that simple. Couldn't agree more. Laterz, Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- Roger "Merch" Merchberger | "Profile, don't speculate." SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | Daniel J. Bernstein zmerch at 30below.com | From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Sep 10 01:16:42 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 23:16:42 -0700 Subject: Symbols on computers (was: Wang 300 Calc) References: <439218.60892.qm@web52712.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <46E4E149.1F21F3F@cs.ubc.ca> Mr Ian Primus wrote: > > > Keeping things on-vintage, when were icons first > > used on PeeCee > > hardware? ... > - the power switch was typically marked with a 1 and a > 0 (of course, they were real switches too, none of > this soft-power stuff). And pushbuttons were typically > labeled with 1/0. Anyone know when this symbol got > established? I'm of the impression the 0 and 1 for power switches is an IBMism, at least I think I first saw it on IBM equipment perhaps in the 70s, before others took up with it. Something makes me think I've seen it on IBM equipment older than that as well. 0 and 1 never made much sense to me for the power switch, inasmuch as 0 and 1 can refer to lots of things besides main power, and the 0 is typically more of circle than a 0. 0 and 1? Circle and stick? From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Sep 9 15:04:25 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 16:04:25 -0400 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever Message-ID: <0JO400AU8AF10K19@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever > From: "Roy J. Tellason" > Date: Fri, 07 Sep 2007 23:49:03 -0400 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >So I was poking around at bitsavers after snagging those TI databooks, and >stumbled across some files pertaining to TurboDOS. I'd read about that >before, might even have some manual or other on it someplace, but I've >never had the pleasure. I do have one box that was supposed to be a >multi-user system, that being my TeleVideo 816, which had TurboDOS as an >option but the one I have came with something called MMMOST, which I wasn't >all that impressed with. A guy was talking about sending me a tape but that >never happened. > >I remember hearing about one or two other packages that were similar (never >mind MP/M, which I've also not messed with and don't get the impression I >want to bother with really), but have never had the pleasure of running any >of them. > >A while back I *almost* got a hold of one of those "z80 network in a box" >systems, it wasn't S-100 but something else I can't recall, I think that's >the one I have the book on, but I never did snag it. Multibus, very nice bus and expensive cards. I have a few multibus cards. Intel used it in their MDS800 and a few otehrs as well. >Unfortunately instead of RS232 Televideo has something else going there >(RS422?), not easy to interface too, and they distribute their "network" >out amongst what other Televideo boxes you have, which in my case is none. >I guess with an S-100-based system you could always add more cards, and >somehow or other make it work. > >And speaking of the networking aspect of it, do any of you guys know how they >did it? I recall one time getting a glimpse of some system or other that was >S-100 but also had a set of connectors at thet op of each card, which is >what they used for their inter-processor linking rather than trying to push >it through the bus. The reason for this is not apparent to me. Many ways to do it, using a commmon port or a pool of common memory for in box networking and serial ports as well. There were also ARCnet, pre Ethernet and even Ethernet. >I've also seen some "CP/M networking" stuff referred to that was supposed to >work through serial ports, which pretty many machines had, althogh they >appeared in at least one case to be using diodes to wire-OR RS232 signals, >which doesn't strike me as too terribly robust. And what software support >there was for this wasn't real apparent. That was a poor mans networking. Basically the serial ports were used as CD/CSMA bus and there was some protocal like Ethernet but slower and could use the usually common async chips. I have such a net going for my CP/M crates and all. >I dunno, I've just got this fascination for assorted 8-bit parts talking to >each other through some smallish number of wires, I guess it's easier to >deal with than some of the big iron you guys handle regularly, which I can't >afford to go get never mind housing. And I've seen multiple processors used >in stuff already, as in some musical equipment that passed "event >information" from one chip to the next with only a couple of pins, or the >daisywheel printer that had _four_ 804x procesors in it for different >functions. This is not a new thing. >TurboDOS is neat, and has some good design aspects in it, but there's too >much legacy stuff in there for being able to run CP/M software, stuff I'd >leave out if it were me and too much emphasis on the same old Console / >Printer / Disk Drives in the system, as opposed to something different or >unique. I found the same thing to be the case when I looked at FORTH, too >much of the usual stuff, and that was supposed to have been used in some >control applications? I must've missed something there... ???? Whats the question or point? Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Sun Sep 9 15:09:50 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Sun, 09 Sep 2007 16:09:50 -0400 Subject: Does anyone use RT-11? Message-ID: <0JO40083PAO2DWQ6@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> >Subject: Re: Does anyone use RT-11? Yes, I have at this time four Qbus systems from 11/03 through 11/73 and run RT-11 on them. Rarely games but usually for hacking around and good OS fun. Often to just get away from M$! One day I plan to get a T11 up and running wtih RT but with non-DEC drivers for terminal and storage as a small toteable -11. Alllison From robert at irrelevant.com Mon Sep 10 01:52:42 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 07:52:42 +0100 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <575131af0709090809k2437d360q379a5e0e2247b04b@mail.gmail.com> <46E46DE4.6070603@jetnet.ab.ca> <46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <2f806cd70709092352v6eb32e88v95b2663a416b99d4@mail.gmail.com> On 10/09/2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Keeping things on-vintage, when were icons first used on PeeCee > hardware? Hmm... I've been mystified by strange symbols above connectors on the backs of machines for a while now... Especially when it's from a manufacturer I don't usually deal with. At least my own interest, the BBC micro, got this right! Proper words on the ports.. > > I have to admit that I'm another one who's mystified by icons; unless > they're part of some very specialized application. Such as in > musical transcription software, where an eighth note (quaver for you > in the UK) means just that--to write it out in words would take > longer to interpret than "You want an eighth note? Just click on the > eighth note." "Sixty-fourth note" or "hemidemisemiquaver" is just > too cumbersome. > Music is a good example where the symbology has had a good time to develop and get standardised, so there's not a lot of choice when you want to depict a quaver, etc. Computers are so new, though, and the use of pictographs on them even newer, that there seems to be no standard for even typical items, never mind the esoteric ports for functions... I've seen "=" for parallel and "- - -" for serial on one box, and symbols reminicent from flow-charts for printers on another.. If you don't already know what a port might be, then you've no chance.. Just write "printer port" FGS.... (I had a light come on the car dash the other day. Looked a bit like the logo on some alien space ship in a Sci-Fi show. Nothing recognisable, nor memorable enough for me to describe it now. But it was yellow, rather than green, so I had to stop, dig out the handbook from under the passenger seat, and look it up. Then look up the mysterious acronym that the description referred to. ["This indicates that the XYZ subsystem has activated" - almost as usefull as some PC BIOS handbooks. "FooBar activation option? - This allows you to enable or disable this option" Yes, I worked that out, but what does the option DO??] It took me a good couple of minutes to find out that it was nothing to worry about, and I wasn't being warned that the engine was about to blow up. Now where's the advantage in that??) I agree with Dwight; icons: nice idea.. shame it doesn't work... Rob From cc at corti-net.de Mon Sep 10 04:33:39 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 11:33:39 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Does anyone use RT-11? In-Reply-To: <46E4351F.4040207@compsys.to> References: <46E19C3C.5060709@compsys.to> <624966d60709082036x10aa5473qb9b53862d0f27d1a@mail.gmail.com> <46E4351F.4040207@compsys.to> Message-ID: On Sun, 9 Sep 2007, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > Yes that seems to be the goal, but what will you do with > RT-11 at that point? If playing games is the objective, > then RT-11 is not really being used except to start the > process. I do this on our 11/10 with VT11/VR17 to play lunar lander (the visitors and especially children like it!). > Based on the few responses, I guess that no one is writing > any programs, let alone modifying any utilities. And almost > certainly, no one seems to be modifying device drivers or > the operating system itself. If anyone is actually interested > in that aspect, please let me know. Don't say that. My "main" PDP11 in our museum is a 11/34 with all sorts of peripherals. I've built a small interface to attach a PC to a DR11-C and wrote a RT-11 device driver (works in FB and XM). On the PC side I have virtual disk images of various sizes (up to 65536 RT-11 blocks) and on the RT-11 side I have up to eight devices that map to these disk images. Although the data path between the 11 and the PC is only 8 bits (I was too lazy to make it 16 bits, that would have required two latches and logic for multiplexing/demultiplexing) I achieve data rates of about 70kB/s. I can transfer whole RK05 disk images in less than one minute (that's btw. the reason why I built this interface) with COPY/DEV (in both directions). And I can boot from the virtual disk... The project isn't finished yet (no time, other projects, ...). The protocol needs to be more robust and fault tolerant, and I need to implement some kind of timeouts on both sides. Ah, almost forgot that: Since there is no official way to format DECtapes under RT-11, I've enhanced the modified TC11 formatter from the spring '76 sigtape to be verbose and tell the user what to do. I think this counts as "modifying utilities", doesn't it? :-) Christian From asholz at topinform.de Mon Sep 10 04:35:34 2007 From: asholz at topinform.de (Andreas Holz) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 11:35:34 +0200 Subject: DEC Minc 11 Message-ID: <46E50FE6.6060702@topinform.de> Hello all, last weekend I got a MINC 11 including docs (book 6 is missing), but no software. I'm interested in the system and demonstration disk, even as disk images, mentioned in the MINC's manuals. Andreas (from Germany) From sellam at vintagetech.com Mon Sep 10 05:47:41 2007 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 03:47:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VINTAGE COMPUTER FESTIVAL 10.0 - VCFX Message-ID: Announcing, Vintage Computer Festival 10.0 _ _ ______ ______ __ __ | | | | | __ | | ____| \ \ / / | | | | | | |_| | | \ \/ / | | | | | | | |___ \ / | | | | | | | ___| / \ \ \/ / | | _ | | / /\ \ \ / | |__| | | | / / \ \ \/ |______| |_| /_/ \_\ November 3-4, 2007 Computer History Museum Mountain View, California http://www.vintage.org/2007/main/ Ten years! From a quirky little event at the county fairgrounds, the Vintage Computer Festival has grown into the preeminent celebration of computers and their history. We want you to come help us celebrate the tenth anniversary of the VCF in proper style! WHAT: The tenth annual Vintage Computer Festival: VCFX! WHEN: Saturday and Sunday, November 3rd & 4th, 2007 WHERE: The Computer History Museum in Mountain View, California. WHY: Vintage computers, baby! WHO: Why YOU, silly! This announcement is simply a harbinger. The next long-awaited edition of the VCF Gazette is on its way soon with complete VCFX details. In the meantime, you can also check the VCFX web pages for the latest information: http://www.vintage.org/2007/main/ VOLUNTEERS NEEDED We can use some volunteers this year to help make this the smoothest event yet. Contact VCF Producer Sellam Ismail at for details. EXHIBITORS If you've been waiting for that one year to finally do an exhibit at the VCF, THIS IS THAT YEAR. Sign up now! http://www.vintage.org/2007/main/exhibit.php VENDORS We currently have plenty of vendor booths available. But don't wait, sign up now because booths sell out quickly: http://www.vintage.org/2007/main/vendor.php Stay tuned for further announcements of VCFX coming your way soon! Best regards, Sellam Ismail Producer Vintage Computer Festival http://www.vintage.org/ To remove yourself from the VCF mailing list, please visit: http://www.vintage.org/maillist.php?reset=1&state=find From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Sep 10 06:22:14 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 07:22:14 -0400 Subject: VT103 (was Re: Reviving DEC RX01 power supply) In-Reply-To: References: <46E434F5.3040806@compsys.to> Message-ID: On Sep 9, 2007, at 5:54 PM, Roger Ivie wrote: >> Ethan Dicks wrote: >> unwarranted. I kinda fell off the PDP-11 cart in the KDJ11 era, so >> I'm not as conversant with what's out there... > > I knew a fellow who claimed to have build a MicroVAX II in a VT103. I > never saw it and don't know the details, but I believed him. He was > some sort of meta-service guy at DEC (i.e., he got called when the > normal service guys couldn't figure it out) and I think the machine > was on the DEC internal network. IIRC (and I might not), his name > was Ozzie Perez and the node name was OZZIE:: Are you sure that wasn't "Ernie"? That sounds like something my old friend and mentor Ernie Perez might have tried. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From lproven at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 09:32:18 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 15:32:18 +0100 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <2f806cd70709092352v6eb32e88v95b2663a416b99d4@mail.gmail.com> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <575131af0709090809k2437d360q379a5e0e2247b04b@mail.gmail.com> <46E46DE4.6070603@jetnet.ab.ca> <46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com> <2f806cd70709092352v6eb32e88v95b2663a416b99d4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> On 10/09/07, Rob wrote: > On 10/09/2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > Keeping things on-vintage, when were icons first used on PeeCee > > hardware? > > Hmm... I've been mystified by strange symbols above connectors on the > backs of machines for a while now... Especially when it's from a > manufacturer I don't usually deal with. At least my own interest, the > BBC micro, got this right! Proper words on the ports.. The BBC Micro, a machine designed in England for Brits. Now, imagine you'd bought a French computer. If the port was clearly labelled IMPRIMATEUR. Would that help you? Probably not. What if it were clearly labelled in Russian? Or Arabic? Or Chinese? No bally use at all. But a little picture of a printer works everywhere. Stop being so provincial! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From rivie at ridgenet.net Mon Sep 10 09:42:28 2007 From: rivie at ridgenet.net (Roger Ivie) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 07:42:28 -0700 (PDT) Subject: VT103 (was Re: Reviving DEC RX01 power supply) In-Reply-To: References: <46E434F5.3040806@compsys.to> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Sep 2007, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Sep 9, 2007, at 5:54 PM, Roger Ivie wrote: >> >> I knew a fellow who claimed to have build a MicroVAX II in a VT103. I >> never saw it and don't know the details, but I believed him. He was >> some sort of meta-service guy at DEC (i.e., he got called when the >> normal service guys couldn't figure it out) and I think the machine >> was on the DEC internal network. IIRC (and I might not), his name was >> Ozzie Perez and the node name was OZZIE:: > > Are you sure that wasn't "Ernie"? That sounds like something my old friend > and mentor Ernie Perez might have tried. Pretty sure it was Ozzie. -- roger ivie rivie at ridgenet.net From robert at irrelevant.com Mon Sep 10 10:48:23 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 16:48:23 +0100 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <575131af0709090809k2437d360q379a5e0e2247b04b@mail.gmail.com> <46E46DE4.6070603@jetnet.ab.ca> <46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com> <2f806cd70709092352v6eb32e88v95b2663a416b99d4@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2f806cd70709100848t6b9fe2bcna590bb3ced2af081@mail.gmail.com> On 10/09/2007, Liam Proven wrote: > But a little picture of a printer works everywhere. > Only if you know what a printer is looks like. And I don't know about you, but the "little picture of a printer" on, let's say, the Print button in MS Word, looks absolutely nothing like any of the printers I have here. Now *I* know that it looks like a big old impact printer, with output coming from the top, but the vast majority of the general public these days will never have seen such a beast! A quick rundown of parallel printer ports here shows: - a symbol very like the MS word one. - the word "Parallel" - a rectangle with a knob on the side with an overlayed square with equal horizontal lines on it. - a rectangle with an overlayed square with different length lines - similar but looks more like paper falling out of a slot - a rectangle with a corner cut off above a horizontal line I couldn't find two that were exactly the same! And you think that makes it easier? I've come across connectors on machines in the past with cryptic symbols on them that I haven't a clue what they mean, so have no idea what the connector is for! At least with "IMPRIMATEUR" I can look it up in a dictionary, or type it into google! No wonder mass-market PCs are produced with *colour coded* connectors, and mass-market peripherals are issued with matching coloured plugs... > Stop being so provincial! Hey, we ruled half the world at one point... From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 10 10:50:49 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 08:50:49 -0700 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <2f806cd70709092352v6eb32e88v95b2663a416b99d4@mail.gmail.com>, <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E50569.1419.3387E29B@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Sep 2007 at 15:32, Liam Proven wrote: > But a little picture of a printer works everywhere. I have very recent software that uses an icon of a 5.25" floppy (or maybe it's an 8" floppy) for "Save to disk". How many people today even knows what a 5.25" floppy looks like? When will the icon of a floppy of any stripe cease to have any popular meaning? An icon of a printer is useful as long as printers keep looking like the icon. At one time, most printers resembled the top half of a typewriter. Most don't today. Cheers, Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 11:54:54 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 11:54:54 -0500 Subject: Portable PDP-11 (was Re: Does anyone use RT-11?) Message-ID: On 9/9/07, Allison wrote: > One day I plan to get a T11 up and running wtih RT but with non-DEC > drivers for terminal and storage as a small toteable -11. I'd like to hear more about this, either on-list, if you feel your ideas are fleshed out enough to share widely, or off-list, if you are not as far along with the creative process. Ever since I had a PDT-11 (and let it go to another collector, sadly for me), I've wanted a portable PDP-11. It might or might not be easy (read inexpensive ;-) to implement an 80x24 LCD, some form of 40x25 isn't expensive at all since it only takes a 320x200 mono LCD panel. Of course, one could just have serial out from the basic PDP-11 design, then worry about a portable display as a secondary project. As for storage, obviously some flavor of FLASH is great for most things. CF is easy to interface to, and CF cards 1GB and smaller are quite inexpensive. MMC/SD are also inexpensive and even easier to interface to, with a bit more work on the driver side to man the SPI interface. While textual LCDs are cheaper and easier to interface to, the largest one I've seen is 4x40. A graphical LCD panel with a SED1335 or t6963 of a size of 640x200 would be perfect for 80x25, and, since the common graphical LCD controllers are well documented, not difficult to talk to. One could either attach the graphical display right to the T-11 bus as a peripheral and do all the work in PDP-11 software, or hang a microcontroller off of the T-11 via serial, and write some microcontroller firmware to turn the LCD into an ANSI terminal. Back to the T-11, though, if I recall its capabilities correctly, it doesn't have an MMU, and it would be difficult, if not impractical, to design an external one that resembles, say, the MMU on an 11/23... so that means RT-11SJ monitor only, correct? (or would FB be possible?) There's lots of software out there that runs in 56K or less, so I don't see that as a fatal flaw. So, Allison, does any of this sound like what you had in mind, or am I going off in an entirely different direction? -ethan From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Mon Sep 10 12:09:59 2007 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 19:09:59 +0200 Subject: Does anyone use RT-11? In-Reply-To: References: <46E19C3C.5060709@compsys.to> <624966d60709082036x10aa5473qb9b53862d0f27d1a@mail.gmail.com> <46E4351F.4040207@compsys.to> Message-ID: > Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 11:33:39 +0200> From: cc at corti-net.de> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org> Subject: Re: Does anyone use RT-11?> > On Sun, 9 Sep 2007, Jerome H. Fine wrote:> > Yes that seems to be the goal, but what will you do with> > RT-11 at that point? If playing games is the objective,> > then RT-11 is not really being used except to start the> > process.> > I do this on our 11/10 with VT11/VR17 to play lunar lander (the visitors > and especially children like it!).> > > Based on the few responses, I guess that no one is writing> > any programs, let alone modifying any utilities. And almost> > certainly, no one seems to be modifying device drivers or> > the operating system itself. If anyone is actually interested> > in that aspect, please let me know.> > Don't say that. My "main" PDP11 in our museum is a 11/34 with all sorts of > peripherals. I've built a small interface to attach a PC to a DR11-C and > wrote a RT-11 device driver (works in FB and XM). On the PC side I have > virtual disk images of various sizes (up to 65536 RT-11 blocks) and on the > RT-11 side I have up to eight devices that map to these disk images. > Although the data path between the 11 and the PC is only 8 bits (I was too > lazy to make it 16 bits, that would have required two latches and logic > for multiplexing/demultiplexing) I achieve data rates of about 70kB/s. I > can transfer whole RK05 disk images in less than one minute (that's btw. > the reason why I built this interface) with COPY/DEV (in both directions).> And I can boot from the virtual disk...> The project isn't finished yet (no time, other projects, ...). The > protocol needs to be more robust and fault tolerant, and I need to > implement some kind of timeouts on both sides.> > Ah, almost forgot that: Since there is no official way to format DECtapes > under RT-11, I've enhanced the modified TC11 formatter from the spring '76 > sigtape to be verbose and tell the user what to do. I think this counts as > "modifying utilities", doesn't it? :-)> > Christian That DR11-C interface sounds very interesting Christian. Do you happen to have a webpage on that, or (brief) descriptions? Would love to see and try that here! - Henk www.pdp-11.nl From cc at corti-net.de Mon Sep 10 12:12:15 2007 From: cc at corti-net.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 19:12:15 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <575131af0709090809k2437d360q379a5e0e2247b04b@mail.gmail.com> <46E46DE4.6070603@jetnet.ab.ca> <46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com> <2f806cd70709092352v6eb32e88v95b2663a416b99d4@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 10 Sep 2007, Liam Proven wrote: > Now, imagine you'd bought a French computer. If the port was clearly > labelled IMPRIMATEUR. Would that help you? No, because a printer is called 'imprimante' in French :-)) Christian From lproven at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 12:20:27 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 18:20:27 +0100 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <2f806cd70709100848t6b9fe2bcna590bb3ced2af081@mail.gmail.com> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <575131af0709090809k2437d360q379a5e0e2247b04b@mail.gmail.com> <46E46DE4.6070603@jetnet.ab.ca> <46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com> <2f806cd70709092352v6eb32e88v95b2663a416b99d4@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> <2f806cd70709100848t6b9fe2bcna590bb3ced2af081@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0709101020t6a340654jee9e5b0825df6c9d@mail.gmail.com> On 10/09/2007, Rob wrote: > On 10/09/2007, Liam Proven wrote: > > > But a little picture of a printer works everywhere. > > > > Only if you know what a printer is looks like. And I don't know about > you, but the "little picture of a printer" on, let's say, the Print > button in MS Word, looks absolutely nothing like any of the printers I > have here. Now *I* know that it looks like a big old impact printer, > with output coming from the top, but the vast majority of the general > public these days will never have seen such a beast! [...] That's true, but then, a simple old dot-matrix makes a more distinctive pictogram than a laser, which tends to be a simple box. But so long as people learn to associate the pictogram with its meaning, it works, and it's international and does not require literacy. The symbols in Chinese no longer resemble the concepts behind them in any recognisable way, but it is the single biggest single-language nation on the planet. Their literally hundreds of dissimilar mutually-unintelligible dialects and tongues are united by a single written language, one which has no connection with the spoken forms, which is based on pictograms. It *works.* > No wonder mass-market PCs are produced with *colour coded* connectors, > and mass-market peripherals are issued with matching coloured plugs... That is a good plan, I must concede. Unless, of course, you're colour-blind. > > Stop being so provincial! > > Hey, we ruled half the world at one point... Long before my parents were born, or, I suspect, my grandparents, so not terribly relevant now! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 12:22:35 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 18:22:35 +0100 Subject: PS/2 webserver Message-ID: <575131af0709101022i55740bd5o8d4e1869c85ad858@mail.gmail.com> Merely curious. Does anyone know of any IBM PS/2 machines - the proper Microchannel ones - hosting websites today? I know of a number of very old Macs doing so, including a Mac Plus with a website on floppy, machines running System 6 and AU/X. I've even visited a website hosted on a Commodore 64, I seem to recall. But never a PS/2 one. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Sep 10 12:37:09 2007 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 11:37:09 -0600 Subject: Portable PDP-11 (was Re: Does anyone use RT-11?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46E580C5.8030907@e-bbes.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > Back to the T-11, though, if I recall its capabilities correctly, it > doesn't have an MMU, and it would be difficult, if not impractical, to > design an external one that resembles, say, the MMU on an 11/23... so > that means RT-11SJ monitor only, correct? (or would FB be possible?) > There's lots of software out there that runs in 56K or less, so I > don't see that as a fatal flaw. Why not just use the J-11, and have it all ? From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Mon Sep 10 12:39:24 2007 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 19:39:24 +0200 Subject: Does anyone use RT-11? In-Reply-To: References: <46E19C3C.5060709@compsys.to> <624966d60709082036x10aa5473qb9b53862d0f27d1a@mail.gmail.com> <46E4351F.4040207@compsys.to> Message-ID: Sorry all, this is my first post to the list after changing from employer.It seems that the settings in Outlook Express are not that fantastic to generate a decent reply :-( I seem to be able to post to the list again. Thanks Jay! A quick update ... I moved to a new job in another company. That means that my oce.nl or oce.com mail account is now unreachable. The new job is great, but one thing I already miss is the very nice capability to scan documents. I have setup a hotmail account, so no more company footers :-) - Henk, www.pdp-11.nl From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 12:43:52 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 12:43:52 -0500 Subject: Portable PDP-11 (was Re: Does anyone use RT-11?) In-Reply-To: <46E580C5.8030907@e-bbes.com> References: <46E580C5.8030907@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On 9/10/07, e.stiebler wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > Back to the T-11, though, if I recall its capabilities correctly, it > > doesn't have an MMU, and it would be difficult, if not impractical, to > > design an external one that resembles, say, the MMU on an 11/23... so > > that means RT-11SJ monitor only, correct? (or would FB be possible?) > > There's lots of software out there that runs in 56K or less, so I > > don't see that as a fatal flaw. > > Why not just use the J-11, and have it all ? I would think that for one thing, T-11 chips are much easier to find than J-11 chips - DEC used the T-11 in a variety of peripheral cards and terminals, and such. I personally probably have half-a-dozen T-11 chips, and two J-11 chips (one Pro380 and one KDJ11 board). If course, if a project were to erupt that was some form of portable J-11 design w/1MB or more of SRAM and some local mass storage, I would certainly strongly consider building one, even if I had to borrow a J-11 chip from one of my two sources. -ethan From ploopster at gmail.com Tue Sep 11 00:53:47 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 01:53:47 -0400 Subject: [SPAM(date)] Re: PS/2 webserver In-Reply-To: <575131af0709101022i55740bd5o8d4e1869c85ad858@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0709101022i55740bd5o8d4e1869c85ad858@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E62D6B.4000008@gmail.com> Liam Proven wrote: > Merely curious. Does anyone know of any IBM PS/2 machines - the proper > Microchannel ones - hosting websites today? > > I know of a number of very old Macs doing so, including a Mac Plus > with a website on floppy, machines running System 6 and AU/X. I've > even visited a website hosted on a Commodore 64, I seem to recall. > > But never a PS/2 one. It's down at the moment, but anchor.ikickass.org is a PS/2 Model 95. Peace... Sridhar From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Sep 10 13:18:26 2007 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 12:18:26 -0600 Subject: Portable PDP-11 (was Re: Does anyone use RT-11?) In-Reply-To: References: <46E580C5.8030907@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <46E58A72.8040100@e-bbes.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > If course, if a project were to erupt that was some form of portable > J-11 design w/1MB or more of SRAM and some local mass storage, I would > certainly strongly consider building one, even if I had to borrow a > J-11 chip from one of my two sources. But the j-11 are alos very easy to get, as a lot 11/73 boards are showing even on ebay for dirt cheap. And a SBC-11-+++ would be also a nice project, getting SCSI or IDE, 4 MBytes of ram, 100 mbit ethernet, ... From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Sep 10 13:14:37 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 19:14:37 +0100 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <575131af0709090809k2437d360q379a5e0e2247b04b@mail.gmail.com> <46E46DE4.6070603@jetnet.ab.ca> <46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com> <2f806cd70709092352v6eb32e88v95b2663a416b99d4@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E5898D.7090809@yahoo.co.uk> Liam Proven wrote: > On 10/09/07, Rob wrote: >> On 10/09/2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >>> Keeping things on-vintage, when were icons first used on PeeCee >>> hardware? >> Hmm... I've been mystified by strange symbols above connectors on the >> backs of machines for a while now... Especially when it's from a >> manufacturer I don't usually deal with. At least my own interest, the >> BBC micro, got this right! Proper words on the ports.. > > The BBC Micro, a machine designed in England for Brits. I suspect it was more that the primary market was education, so it made sense to be as user-friendly as possible by stating exactly what each port was. > Now, imagine you'd bought a French computer. If the port was clearly > labelled IMPRIMATEUR. Would that help you? If I bought a French computer I'd either rely on enough knowledge of French to get by, or I'd look up what I needed to know. Given that manuals and software have to be regionalised for the intended market, it hardly seems much effort on the part of the manufacturer to issue case decals that are also regionalised. There seems little excuse for a pictogram that might be ambiguous in *all* languages just because the manufacturer was lazy or was trying to save a few pennies. > What if it were clearly labelled in Russian? Or Arabic? Or Chinese? > > No bally use at all. I suspect the number of times that a person is plonked in front of an alien machine with absolutely no knowledge of the written language of the country from which the machine is from is pretty small. In most cases it would only happen when the person is visiting a foreign country, and in that case you'd expect them to be making an effort to understand the language anyway. cheers Jules From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 10 13:23:35 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 11:23:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <575131af0709090809k2437d360q379a5e0e2247b04b@mail.gmail.com> <46E46DE4.6070603@jetnet.ab.ca> <46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com> <2f806cd70709092352v6eb32e88v95b2663a416b99d4@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070910112115.Y23141@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 10 Sep 2007, Liam Proven wrote: > But a little picture of a printer works everywhere. THAT is a printer?? I thought that it was an external early modem. The Chinese character WOULD work as well for me. > Stop being so provincial! Sorry. Here in the colonies, we've buggered up a lot of what could have been simple, and use some hardly recognizable icons. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Sep 10 13:31:58 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 11:31:58 -0700 Subject: Wang 300 Calc --> 0/1 power labels References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <575131af0709090809k2437d360q379a5e0e2247b04b@mail.gmail.com> <46E46DE4.6070603@jetnet.ab.ca> <46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com> <2f806cd70709092352v6eb32e88v95b2663a416b99d4@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> <2f806cd70709100848t6b9fe2bcna590bb3ced2af081@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709101020t6a340654jee9e5b0825df6c9d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E58D9E.EC4770D5@cs.ubc.ca> Liam Proven wrote: > On 10/09/2007, Rob wrote: > > On 10/09/2007, Liam Proven wrote: > > > > > But a little picture of a printer works everywhere. > > > > Only if you know what a printer is looks like. And I don't know about > > you, but the "little picture of a printer" on, let's say, the Print > > button in MS Word, looks absolutely nothing like any of the printers I > > have here. Now *I* know that it looks like a big old impact printer, > > with output coming from the top, but the vast majority of the general > > public these days will never have seen such a beast! [...] > > That's true, but then, a simple old dot-matrix makes a more > distinctive pictogram than a laser, which tends to be a simple box. > > But so long as people learn to associate the pictogram with its > meaning, it works, and it's international and does not require > literacy. A pictogram which is not obviously a representation of it's target is not a pictogram, it's a symbol. Learning to associate a symbol with it's meaning is pretty much the definition of literacy. The argument is that due to their diversity, inconsistency, and non-pictogram-ness (sorry), these symbols haven't solved anything (other than being politically correct in not giving priority to one culture's natural language), they've just become a new obscure language to learn. (A language which as someone else pointed out, is unsearchable, at least for the time being.) > The symbols in Chinese no longer resemble the concepts behind them in > any recognisable way, but it is the single biggest single-language > nation on the planet. Their literally hundreds of dissimilar > mutually-unintelligible dialects and tongues are united by a single > written language, one which has no connection with the spoken forms, > which is based on pictograms. I would argue that your example of written Chinese actually makes the opposite point to your intent: one has to be literate in the now arbitrary association of symbols to meaning to understand the symbols. It may be freed from a spoken form but that's not the issue, the arbitrariness or non-intuitive-ness of the association is. To try to bring this back on-topic, I was hoping somebody would weigh in with 'earliest' examples of 0/1 on IBM equipment, which might be argued to be where the whole trend started. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Sep 10 13:28:34 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 19:28:34 +0100 Subject: Motorola Exormacs - disk cable Message-ID: <46E58CD2.3000400@yahoo.co.uk> We've just acquired a Motorola Exormacs system, which is sadly without its floppy drive cable (40 pins on the Exormacs side, 50 on the 8" floppy unit (Exordrive III I believe). I suspect the floppy side is just straight-through to the drives, but can anyone confirm that, and does anyone know the pinout on the system unit side of things? Worst-case we'll have to reverse engineer it, but maybe someone knows (we've got no floppies for the system and no useful manuals unfortunately) cheers Jules From gordon at gjcp.net Mon Sep 10 04:11:33 2007 From: gordon at gjcp.net (Gordon JC Pearce) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 10:11:33 +0100 Subject: British Computers. In-Reply-To: <46DC3F48.5070505@yahoo.co.uk> References: <86505602FE0FBB4CB9DE54636AA48D3903BA53@EDISERVER.EDICONS.local> <01fc01c7ede2$9b90fa30$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> <46DC3F48.5070505@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <200709101011.33348.gordon@gjcp.net> On Monday 03 September 2007 18:07:20 Jules Richardson wrote: > Quite by chance I stumbled across an ETI magazine today which announced the > system on the front cover as the "ETI Triton"; I didn't have time to read > the article itself, but found some more literature which said that the > designer created the machine for "Transam and ETI", as though it were some > sort of joint venture. Well they did that with Powertran a lot. In particular, the Powertran synthesizers and effects were published as ETI articles. I really really wanted a Transcendent 2000 when they came out first and I was just a little geeklet. Many years (>20) later, I got hold of one that a friend of mine had been given and had never got to work properly. A quick Goooooooooogle turned up scans of the original ETI article pages, with the construction and setup details and circuits. Gordon From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Sep 10 13:18:17 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 14:18:17 -0400 Subject: Portable PDP-11 (was Re: Does anyone use RT-11?) Message-ID: <0JO6000ZS05SW414@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Portable PDP-11 (was Re: Does anyone use RT-11?) > From: "Ethan Dicks" > Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 11:54:54 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 9/9/07, Allison wrote: >> One day I plan to get a T11 up and running wtih RT but with non-DEC >> drivers for terminal and storage as a small toteable -11. > >I'd like to hear more about this, either on-list, if you feel your >ideas are fleshed out enough to share widely, or off-list, if you are >not as far along with the creative process. I have a lot on paper plus the ever important T-11 manual. However it has stopped at that phase mostly due to other projects having my interest. I did some prototyping a few years back with the T11 to see in in action without a lot of DEC hardware around it. I have that but it was never meant to grow and is only 8KW ram, 8KW Eprom and a DLART for serial IO. Since then I've been doing 8085, Z80, Z280, 6809 and 1802 stuff when not building HF and VHF tranceivers. >Ever since I had a PDT-11 (and let it go to another collector, sadly >for me), I've wanted a portable PDP-11. It might or might not be easy >(read inexpensive ;-) to implement an 80x24 LCD, some form of 40x25 >isn't expensive at all since it only takes a 320x200 mono LCD panel. >Of course, one could just have serial out from the basic PDP-11 >design, then worry about a portable display as a secondary project. The display is really the harder part at least for portability and power consumption. However for this one I was considering packaging along the lines of the Kaypro totables and wall power. Part of this recognizes the T-11 uses a fair amount of power (Z80 NMOS is similar) and most of the parts around it will not be CMOS so battery operation is not easily accomplished. >As for storage, obviously some flavor of FLASH is great for most >things. CF is easy to interface to, and CF cards 1GB and smaller are >quite inexpensive. MMC/SD are also inexpensive and even easier to >interface to, with a bit more work on the driver side to man the SPI >interface. None of the above for cost or availability reasons. I'd opt for IDE using one of the many 40-500mb drives I have. >While textual LCDs are cheaper and easier to interface to, the largest >one I've seen is 4x40. A graphical LCD panel with a SED1335 or t6963 >of a size of 640x200 would be perfect for 80x25, and, since the common >graphical LCD controllers are well documented, not difficult to talk >to. One could either attach the graphical display right to the T-11 >bus as a peripheral and do all the work in PDP-11 software, or hang a >microcontroller off of the T-11 via serial, and write some >microcontroller firmware to turn the LCD into an ANSI terminal. I planned on text. However it's possible to get LCDs used for laptops but the logic to drive them is non trivial. >Back to the T-11, though, if I recall its capabilities correctly, it >doesn't have an MMU, and it would be difficult, if not impractical, to >design an external one that resembles, say, the MMU on an 11/23... so >that means RT-11SJ monitor only, correct? (or would FB be possible?) >There's lots of software out there that runs in 56K or less, so I >don't see that as a fatal flaw. Correct on the OS and software. However the MMU is very buildable and not near as hardware intensive as would seem. For an example look at the T-11 interface in the VT240. It takes a few 16x4 bipolar rams and some loose logic to implement the paging (2 74189, 3 74ls257 and a bit of TTL glue) to make a a compatable (mostly) mapper. One of the things I've given consideration to in recent years is a nonDEC and non *nix OS such as CUBIX as that would translate reasonably from 6908 to PDP-11. This arises from the fact that RT-11 has a very primitive filesystem compared to CP/M and an OS that is not encumbered would be easier to work with. >So, Allison, does any of this sound like what you had in mind, or am I >going off in an entirely different direction? You envision what sould like a Laptop. I can't easily fabricate that but a toteable like Kaypro, Osborne and a few others is very doable. The basic machine description is a 128kW using 32kx8 static parts (8pcs), Boot roms/ODT, MMU, two serial, parallel (PC conpatable for printer) and IDE disk. Things like OS in Eprom have surfaced to my idea pool to consider especially if it were not RT11 (CUBIX influence). Terminal logic would be VK170 (base VT52 on a dual size card) and a monitor in the 7-9" size. Right now it's a static project from the build it perspective but as new ideas surface and other projects supply different expereinces it morphs some. What I'd have built say 6 years ago and noew would be very different. It will eventually get attention as I have parts stored away for it. Allison > >-ethan From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Sep 10 13:26:32 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 14:26:32 -0400 Subject: Portable PDP-11 (was Re: Does anyone use RT-11?) Message-ID: <0JO60029K0JJP3W0@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Portable PDP-11 (was Re: Does anyone use RT-11?) > From: "Ethan Dicks" > Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 12:43:52 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 9/10/07, e.stiebler wrote: >> Ethan Dicks wrote: >> > Back to the T-11, though, if I recall its capabilities correctly, it >> > doesn't have an MMU, and it would be difficult, if not impractical, to >> > design an external one that resembles, say, the MMU on an 11/23... so >> > that means RT-11SJ monitor only, correct? (or would FB be possible?) >> > There's lots of software out there that runs in 56K or less, so I >> > don't see that as a fatal flaw. >> >> Why not just use the J-11, and have it all ? > >I would think that for one thing, T-11 chips are much easier to find >than J-11 chips - DEC used the T-11 in a variety of peripheral cards >and terminals, and such. I personally probably have half-a-dozen T-11 >chips, and two J-11 chips (one Pro380 and one KDJ11 board). T-11 is designed along the lines of 8085 or Z280 and far easier to interface than J-11. That and I have a handful of T-11s out of defunct RQDX1s and VT240s. If all else the T11 is 40pin DIP and far easier to remove and socket for wire wrap than the huge J-11. T-11s appeared as loose parts, RQDXn controller, VT240/241, HSC50 KXT-11 and KXT-21 to name a few. For raw volume it outnumbers the J11. Doesn't hurt that all software design work can be done on any PDP11 but does not rely on features not available on most all -11s. > >If course, if a project were to erupt that was some form of portable >J-11 design w/1MB or more of SRAM and some local mass storage, I would >certainly strongly consider building one, even if I had to borrow a >J-11 chip from one of my two sources. >-ethan J11 and 1MB of sram is not battery friendly unless one is willing to invest in a lot of 74HCxx parts and a big battery. Allison From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 10 13:38:25 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 11:38:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <2f806cd70709100848t6b9fe2bcna590bb3ced2af081@mail.gmail.com> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <575131af0709090809k2437d360q379a5e0e2247b04b@mail.gmail.com> <46E46DE4.6070603@jetnet.ab.ca> <46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com> <2f806cd70709092352v6eb32e88v95b2663a416b99d4@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> <2f806cd70709100848t6b9fe2bcna590bb3ced2af081@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070910113524.M23141@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 10 Sep 2007, Rob wrote: > A quick rundown of parallel printer ports here shows: > - a symbol very like the MS word one. > - the word "Parallel" > - a rectangle with a knob on the side with an overlayed square with > equal horizontal lines on it. > - a rectangle with an overlayed square with different length lines > - similar but looks more like paper falling out of a slot > - a rectangle with a corner cut off above a horizontal line Don't forget the "piano" symbol for hardcopy output on IBM flowchart templates. > I couldn't find two that were exactly the same! > No wonder mass-market PCs are produced with *colour coded* connectors, > and mass-market peripherals are issued with matching coloured plugs... Are the COLOR (in the case of USA) coded connectors standardized? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Sep 10 13:42:12 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 12:42:12 -0600 Subject: Portable PDP-11 (was Re: Does anyone use RT-11?) In-Reply-To: <46E58A72.8040100@e-bbes.com> References: <46E580C5.8030907@e-bbes.com> <46E58A72.8040100@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <46E59004.1040103@jetnet.ab.ca> e.stiebler wrote: > But the j-11 are alos very easy to get, as a lot 11/73 boards are > showing even on ebay for dirt cheap. And a SBC-11-+++ would be also a > nice project, getting SCSI or IDE, 4 MBytes of ram, 100 mbit ethernet, ... How about a nice PDP-11 for the people that never haver used a PDP-11. As for ebay they start cheap ... what about the last second of bidding. I have dial up -- does this mean I have already lost my bid since they are sitting on a router staight to ebay? Ben alias woodelf From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Sep 10 13:44:10 2007 From: emu at e-bbes.com (e.stiebler) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 12:44:10 -0600 Subject: Portable PDP-11 (was Re: Does anyone use RT-11?) In-Reply-To: References: <46E580C5.8030907@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <46E5907A.1050902@e-bbes.com> Ethan Dicks wrote: > On 9/10/07, e.stiebler wrote: > > I would think that for one thing, T-11 chips are much easier to find > than J-11 chips - DEC used the T-11 in a variety of peripheral cards > and terminals, and such. I personally probably have half-a-dozen T-11 > chips, and two J-11 chips (one Pro380 and one KDJ11 board). Google is a funny thing. Just found my own reply from june 2007: >There is a guy who made his own SBC with a T-11, and even ported Forth >on it. I thought I knew his webpage, but it seems, I lost the bookmark. >But check google groups for "peter mccollum forth t11" and you will find >at least the discussions ... From robert at irrelevant.com Mon Sep 10 13:49:55 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 19:49:55 +0100 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <575131af0709101020t6a340654jee9e5b0825df6c9d@mail.gmail.com> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <575131af0709090809k2437d360q379a5e0e2247b04b@mail.gmail.com> <46E46DE4.6070603@jetnet.ab.ca> <46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com> <2f806cd70709092352v6eb32e88v95b2663a416b99d4@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> <2f806cd70709100848t6b9fe2bcna590bb3ced2af081@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709101020t6a340654jee9e5b0825df6c9d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2f806cd70709101149m6082d8a4mca10403ef62dc163@mail.gmail.com> On 10/09/2007, Liam Proven wrote: > > That's true, but then, a simple old dot-matrix makes a more > distinctive pictogram than a laser, which tends to be a simple box. > > But so long as people learn to associate the pictogram with its > meaning, it works, and it's international and does not require > literacy. I think you have just made the point you were trying to avoid. You need to learn to associate the pictogram with it's meaning. So it matters not if it is one of a hundred unique visions of an obsolete printer, a pair of parallel lines(which I've also seen) or the sequence of mostly recognisable characters p, r, i, n, t, e and r. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Sep 10 13:53:18 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 12:53:18 -0600 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <20070910112115.Y23141@shell.lmi.net> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <575131af0709090809k2437d360q379a5e0e2247b04b@mail.gmail.com> <46E46DE4.6070603@jetnet.ab.ca> <46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com> <2f806cd70709092352v6eb32e88v95b2663a416b99d4@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> <20070910112115.Y23141@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <46E5929E.5060706@jetnet.ab.ca> Fred Cisin wrote: > The Chinese character WOULD work as well for me. Not realy -- Chinese is still limited in some ways, since the Icons stack on top of each other. >> Stop being so provincial! So how goes life in ROME? Say hi to the Emperor for me. > Sorry. Here in the colonies, we've buggered up a lot of what could have > been simple, and use some hardly recognizable icons. The point is writing is clear for some things. Icons for other things like in schematics. As for windows icons and other things like scroll bars they waste *my* screen space. Ben alias Woodelf Now back to classic computers before we all are fed to the Lions. From healyzh at aracnet.com Mon Sep 10 13:54:24 2007 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane H. Healy) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 11:54:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Portable PDP-11 (was Re: Does anyone use RT-11?) In-Reply-To: <0JO6000ZS05SW414@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> from "Allison" at Sep 10, 2007 02:18:17 PM Message-ID: <200709101854.l8AIsPww020566@onyx.spiritone.com> > >As for storage, obviously some flavor of FLASH is great for most > >things. CF is easy to interface to, and CF cards 1GB and smaller are > >quite inexpensive. MMC/SD are also inexpensive and even easier to > >interface to, with a bit more work on the driver side to man the SPI > >interface. > > None of the above for cost or availability reasons. I'd opt for IDE > using one of the many 40-500mb drives I have. I believe converters for IDE to CF cards are pretty cheap, so if you have IDE, you effectively have CF. > You envision what sould like a Laptop. I can't easily fabricate that > but a toteable like Kaypro, Osborne and a few others is very doable. You might want to look at some of the "Laptops" that others have built for things such as the Amiga. It might not be as difficult as you might think. > The basic machine description is a 128kW using 32kx8 static parts (8pcs), > Boot roms/ODT, MMU, two serial, parallel (PC conpatable for printer) > and IDE disk. Things like OS in Eprom have surfaced to my idea pool > to consider especially if it were not RT11 (CUBIX influence). Terminal > logic would be VK170 (base VT52 on a dual size card) and a monitor in > the 7-9" size. > > Right now it's a static project from the build it perspective but > as new ideas surface and other projects supply different expereinces > it morphs some. What I'd have built say 6 years ago and noew would > be very different. It will eventually get attention as I have parts > stored away for it. Sounds fun. Zane From robert at irrelevant.com Mon Sep 10 13:55:56 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 19:55:56 +0100 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <20070910113524.M23141@shell.lmi.net> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <575131af0709090809k2437d360q379a5e0e2247b04b@mail.gmail.com> <46E46DE4.6070603@jetnet.ab.ca> <46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com> <2f806cd70709092352v6eb32e88v95b2663a416b99d4@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> <2f806cd70709100848t6b9fe2bcna590bb3ced2af081@mail.gmail.com> <20070910113524.M23141@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <2f806cd70709101155kfc2923eoc95700b31e3c5f9d@mail.gmail.com> On 10/09/2007, Fred Cisin wrote: > > Don't forget the "piano" symbol for hardcopy output on IBM flowchart > templates. Indeed not... I've seen others, and I'm sure there are several more in the house too; those were just the few immediately visible on disconnected machines lying about. > > No wonder mass-market PCs are produced with *colour coded* connectors, > > and mass-market peripherals are issued with matching coloured plugs... > > Are the COLOR (in the case of USA) coded connectors standardized? I have no idea if it's a standard, but where parts I've encountered have been coloured, it's been consistent. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 13:55:56 2007 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 13:55:56 -0500 Subject: Portable PDP-11 (was Re: Does anyone use RT-11?) In-Reply-To: <0JO6000ZS05SW414@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JO6000ZS05SW414@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: On 9/10/07, Allison wrote: > > "Ethan Dicks" > > >On 9/9/07, Allison wrote: > >> One day I plan to get a T11 up and running wtih RT but with non-DEC > >> drivers for terminal and storage as a small toteable -11. > > > >I'd like to hear more about this... > > I have a lot on paper plus the ever important T-11 manual. Very handy. > However > it has stopped at that phase mostly due to other projects having > my interest. Fair enough. I think most of us have a variety of projects cluttering our foreground task. > ... only 8KW ram, 8KW Eprom and a DLART for serial IO. Certainly minimal, though today, 28KW of RAM isn't a stretch. > The display is really the harder part at least for portability and power > consumption. However for this one I was considering packaging along > the lines of the Kaypro totables and wall power. Part of this recognizes > the T-11 uses a fair amount of power (Z80 NMOS is similar) and most of > the parts around it will not be CMOS so battery operation is not easily > accomplished. Understandable. > >As for storage, obviously some flavor of FLASH is great for most > >things... > > None of the above for cost or availability reasons. I'd opt for IDE > using one of the many 40-500mb drives I have. That's certainly a larger device than I'd envisioned (my initial idea was a "pod" the size of a modem or smaller, with an external display/keyboard/host port). > >While textual LCDs are cheaper and easier to interface to, the largest > >one I've seen is 4x40. A graphical LCD panel with a SED1335 or t6963 > >of a size of 640x200 would be perfect for 80x25... > > I planned on text. However it's possible to get LCDs used for laptops > but the logic to drive them is non trivial. Yes. I have a 640x400 laptop display, with specs, that ran me about $10 a few years back. If I ever decide to learn VHDL, I might try to interface it to my IOB6120, but, yes, it takes a bit of work to talk to those. > >Back to the T-11, though, if I recall its capabilities correctly, it > >doesn't have an MMU, and it would be difficult, if not impractical, to > >design an external one that resembles, say, the MMU on an 11/23... > > Correct on the OS and software. However the MMU is very buildable > and not near as hardware intensive as would seem. For an example > look at the T-11 interface in the VT240. It takes a few 16x4 > bipolar rams and some loose logic to implement the paging (2 74189, > 3 74ls257 and a bit of TTL glue) to make a a compatable (mostly) mapper. Interesting. I suppose it couldn't be _too_ complicated, then, since it one like it does fit on a few square inches of 11/34 CPU board. I even happen to have a small pad of 74189s. > One of the things I've given consideration to in recent years is a nonDEC > and non *nix OS such as CUBIX as that would translate reasonably from > 6908 to PDP-11. This arises from the fact that RT-11 has a very > primitive filesystem compared to CP/M and an OS that is not encumbered > would be easier to work with. Hmm... from what I've seen of CUBIX, it sounds feasible for a PDP-11 host, and it certainly gets around the issue of what OS to distribute, but I would think that porting CUBIX could be an entirely independent project (focusing on whatever display and mass-storage interfaces are available). > >So, Allison, does any of this sound like what you had in mind... ? > > You envision what sould like a Laptop. I can't easily fabricate that > but a toteable like Kaypro, Osborne and a few others is very doable. I hadn't specifically been requiring a laptop shape, more of a tiny luggable - on the order of one of the modern Tektronix LCD-screen digital scopes. > The basic machine description is a 128kW using 32kx8 static parts (8pcs), > Boot roms/ODT, MMU, two serial, parallel (PC conpatable for printer) > and IDE disk. Things like OS in Eprom have surfaced to my idea pool > to consider especially if it were not RT11 (CUBIX influence). Terminal > logic would be VK170 (base VT52 on a dual size card) and a monitor in > the 7-9" size. OK. I'm not sure I get the "VK170" reference. Is that some sort of DEC or 3rd party embedded product? Thanks for sharing your design ideas. -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 10 14:09:36 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 12:09:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <46E5898D.7090809@yahoo.co.uk> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <575131af0709090809k2437d360q379a5e0e2247b04b@mail.gmail.com> <46E46DE4.6070603@jetnet.ab.ca> <46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com> <2f806cd70709092352v6eb32e88v95b2663a416b99d4@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> <46E5898D.7090809@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20070910120417.T26091@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 10 Sep 2007, Jules Richardson wrote: > If I bought a French computer I'd either rely on enough knowledge of French to > get by, or I'd look up what I needed to know. It still takes a little time to get used to the 'A' and 'Z' being where the 'Q' and 'W' OUGHTA be. Particularly on an older machine with the key legends worn off. > > What if it were clearly labelled in Russian? Or Arabic? Or Chinese? > > No bally use at all. Think Clint Eastwood in "Firefox" - "You have to think in Russian". Might just as well go with the Disaster Area stunt ship - black on black, with a little black light lighting up. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 10 14:15:35 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 12:15:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Motorola Exormacs - disk cable In-Reply-To: <46E58CD2.3000400@yahoo.co.uk> References: <46E58CD2.3000400@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <20070910121326.A26091@shell.lmi.net> On Mon, 10 Sep 2007, Jules Richardson wrote: > We've just acquired a Motorola Exormacs system, which is sadly without its > floppy drive cable (40 pins on the Exormacs side, 50 on the 8" floppy unit > (Exordrive III I believe). > I suspect the floppy side is just straight-through to the drives, but can > anyone confirm that, and does anyone know the pinout on the system unit side > of things? Better check that! "normal" 5.25" floppy is 34 pin. 40 pin implementations, such as some PS/2s put power on those other 6 pins. 34 to 50 pin cabling information is readily available. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Sep 10 14:15:26 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 15:15:26 -0400 Subject: VT103 (was Re: Reviving DEC RX01 power supply) In-Reply-To: References: <46E434F5.3040806@compsys.to> Message-ID: <46E597CE.6080605@compsys.to> >Roger Ivie wrote: >> Ethan Dicks wrote: >> unwarranted. I kinda fell off the PDP-11 cart in the KDJ11 era, so >> I'm not as conversant with what's out there... > > I knew a fellow who claimed to have build a MicroVAX II in a VT103. I > never saw it and don't know the details, but I believed him. He was > some sort of meta-service guy at DEC (i.e., he got called when the > normal service guys couldn't figure it out) and I think the machine > was on the DEC internal network. IIRC (and I might not), his name was > Ozzie Perez and the node name was OZZIE:: Jerome Fine replies: I also heard about that system. I received the impression that the fellow was in Australia. The name fits. The requirement (if I remember what I was told) is that the CPU and memory must be placed into ABCD slots - which are standard in the BA23 (the first 3) and BA123 (the first 4) backplanes. Since I have trouble even thinking about using a soldering iron, attempting to set up ABCD slots was just beyond my ability. Now software on RT-11 is a different story for me. But most everyone who reads this is more concerned about hardware than software. As far as I know, the MicroVAX I would have run in a standard VT103 backplane, but modified to support 22 bit addresses. So there may have been a challenge to see if it could be done with the MicroVAX II. Anyone know how many amps that CPU draws on the 5V? With a 16 Amp limit to the 5V and much less on the 12V, the VT103 can't support very much. It was fun to bring in the VT103 (as if it was just a VT100 terminal) and boot RT-11 on the hard disk drive inside. The only concern was to never move the VT103 around while the hard drive was spinning. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Sep 10 14:16:04 2007 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 15:16:04 -0400 Subject: VT103 (was Re: Reviving DEC RX01 power supply) In-Reply-To: References: <46E434F5.3040806@compsys.to> Message-ID: <46E597F4.90408@compsys.to> >Ethan Dicks wrote: >I have upgraded backplanes in the past. I found the easiest way to do >it was to use recycled DEC backplane power strips - bits of thin metal >that have a small (pin-sized hole) alternating with a larger hole that >misses the next pin. I recovered some from a PDP-8/L that arrived to >me with broken backplane. DEC used to sell it as a separate item for >customers who were working with foundation modules and such. I don't >know where I'd get it now. > Jerome Fine replies: Since I had never even heard of a DEC power strip, using insulated wire wrap seemed to be the best solution. The solder points stick out a bit. So stripping the wire about 1/8" was about right. Perhaps it was also prudent to pull the insulation back another 1/4" before soldering and then pushing the insulation forward again after making the connection and cooling off. >>... However, an RQDX1,2 >>was out of the question since they require 6 Amps for >>the 5V. An RQDX3 is probably OK when used with a quad >>CPU like the M8189 or the M8190 (since there are no >>boot ROMs on any RQDXn controller). I guess that you >>could type in a boot program (if you don't do it too often) >>using hardware ODT - it takes about 5 minutes. >> >I was already presuming a SCSI interface. > I realize, but most everyone else reading this might not have a SCSI host adapter for the Qbus. I also have a SCSI host adapter for the Qbus and for a time it was the most costly Qbus board that I ever owned. >>Either a dual or a quad KDJ11 can be used. Almost EVERY >>quad KDJ11 is really the same as a PDP-11/83 except for >>the 18 MHz crystal. And since you can't use PMI memory >>without further modification of the first 2 slots to add >>ABCD like the first 3 slots on a BA23, it seems that you >>are stuck with an ordinary PDP-11/73. >> >True enough. I was more thinking of the advanced processors (11/93?) >for any onboard memory, not for PMI. > >From my point of view, the PDP-11/93 is vastly over rated and even more so over priced. On the other hand, for the VT103, the PDP-11/93 actually makes a lot of sense when you are looking at only 4 quad backplane slots and have an important project that needs 5 quad slots with a normal CPU and separate memory. But a BA23 box is not that much bigger and heavier if more than 4 quad slots are essential. As for the speed of the PDP-11/93, when I did buy one to sell to a customer over 10 years ago, I did a few benchmarks. For pure CPU speed, the PDP-11/93 is about 10% faster than the PDP-11/83 which agrees with the crystal of 20 MHz vs 10 MHz, respectively. However, the PDP-11/83 is only about 35% faster than the quad PDP-11/73 (M8190) which has a 15 MHz crystal and uses normal memory. Add PMI memory to the PDP-11/73 (almost all quad PDP-11/73 CPUs are able to handle this) and the speed difference is only about 15% - which means that the PMI memory speeds up a PDP-11/73 by about 20%. At one point, PMI memory demand was so low that it sold for less than normal Qbus memory. Shows what people really know. >>Most VT103 systems came with a paddle card that was intended >>to be used with a DLV11-J and a dual PDP-11 Qbus card. The >>paddle card connected the terminal and keyboard to the 4th >>channel on the DLV11-J that was then strapped as consol >>and the normal 25 pin serial connector on the back could >>then be connected to a second serial channel on the DLV11-J >>(and probably sent to a serial line printer). >> >I do not have this card, but do know about it, and have been looking >for one, casually, for 20 years. > I have one which I would gladly trade if someone was truly interested in RT-11 software. Eventually I will need to abandon my collection, so ... >>Since both replaceable media drives can also >>be attached to a PC running E11... >> >We work in different worlds... I'd be doing any off-line prep work >with Simh and Linux. > Since E11 can also run on Linux, I should consider moving. For some of my work, speed is important - sieving for prime numbers. E11 is MUCH, MUCH faster than Simh. But maybe someone would be interested in a faster drive interface for Simh. The HD: drive under E11 would probably be ideal for emulation by Simh and that would mean the the RT-11 device driver would work under Simh as well. The interface is almost trivial. Does anyone want the details? >>Can I answer any other questions? >> >Since I'm not likely to be attempting this for a year or two (after >getting back from another winter at Pole), I'll probably ask questions >as they come up. For now, though, I can easily put together a KDF11 >system, so I'll probably start there. I was just interested in what I >might need to put together a SCSI-based KDJ11 system with 4MB. > Just add a hard drive and a DLV11-J with the M8186. With a quad M8189, you already have 2 serial ports. Probably best in that case to use the BA23 cabinet kit (if you have one) for the serial ports. Using the paddle board with an M8189 might be a problem since I seem to remember that the ports used with the paddle board did not use the baud rate selection on the DLV11-J but rather the baud rate was selected by the VT103. How many 4 MB Qbus memory cards do you have? Do you have any PMI Qbus memory cards? Christlen made a 4 MB PMI board, but by the time I became interested, it was not possible to justify the expense. Sincerely yours, Jerome Fine -- If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the 'at' with the four digits of the current year. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 10 14:18:34 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 12:18:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <2f806cd70709101149m6082d8a4mca10403ef62dc163@mail.gmail.com> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <575131af0709090809k2437d360q379a5e0e2247b04b@mail.gmail.com> <46E46DE4.6070603@jetnet.ab.ca> <46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com> <2f806cd70709092352v6eb32e88v95b2663a416b99d4@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> <2f806cd70709100848t6b9fe2bcna590bb3ced2af081@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709101020t6a340654jee9e5b0825df6c9d@mail.gmail.com> <2f806cd70709101149m6082d8a4mca10403ef62dc163@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070910121700.K26091@shell.lmi.net> > That's true, but then, a simple old dot-matrix makes a more > distinctive pictogram than a laser, which tends to be a simple box. I went looking for an impact printer at the college. There were none. While it may be "distictive" to US, in another few years, we're going to be the only ones who know what one looks like. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 10 14:08:27 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 12:08:27 -0700 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com>, <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com>, Message-ID: <46E533BB.18673.343CD13D@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Sep 2007 at 19:12, Christian Corti wrote: > On Mon, 10 Sep 2007, Liam Proven wrote: > > Now, imagine you'd bought a French computer. If the port was clearly > > labelled IMPRIMATEUR. Would that help you? > > No, because a printer is called 'imprimante' in French :-)) Ah, then the keyboard is called "Nihil Obstat"? :) Cheers, Chuck From mcguire at neurotica.com Mon Sep 10 14:26:33 2007 From: mcguire at neurotica.com (Dave McGuire) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 15:26:33 -0400 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <20070910121700.K26091@shell.lmi.net> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <575131af0709090809k2437d360q379a5e0e2247b04b@mail.gmail.com> <46E46DE4.6070603@jetnet.ab.ca> <46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com> <2f806cd70709092352v6eb32e88v95b2663a416b99d4@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> <2f806cd70709100848t6b9fe2bcna590bb3ced2af081@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709101020t6a340654jee9e5b0825df6c9d@mail.gmail.com> <2f806cd70709101149m6082d8a4mca10403ef62dc163@mail.gmail.com> <20070910121700.K26091@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <272B4F00-FC83-4DAB-8DC3-CB45C02B0A70@neurotica.com> On Sep 10, 2007, at 3:18 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> That's true, but then, a simple old dot-matrix makes a more >> distinctive pictogram than a laser, which tends to be a simple box. > > I went looking for an impact printer at the college. There were none. > While it may be "distictive" to US, in another few years, we're > going to > be the only ones who know what one looks like. Eh, I used to think that...but then I noticed how huge the impact printer business is in certain indusries such as auto parts stores and auto service centers. Pretty much every time I buy a part for a car, I see an Okidata 320 or similar. I have NO idea why they haven't abandoned that technology...it could be that it Just Works and doesn't give them any trouble. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL Farewell Ophelia, 9/22/1991 - 7/25/2007 From robert at irrelevant.com Mon Sep 10 14:33:13 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 20:33:13 +0100 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <272B4F00-FC83-4DAB-8DC3-CB45C02B0A70@neurotica.com> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <46E46DE4.6070603@jetnet.ab.ca> <46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com> <2f806cd70709092352v6eb32e88v95b2663a416b99d4@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> <2f806cd70709100848t6b9fe2bcna590bb3ced2af081@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709101020t6a340654jee9e5b0825df6c9d@mail.gmail.com> <2f806cd70709101149m6082d8a4mca10403ef62dc163@mail.gmail.com> <20070910121700.K26091@shell.lmi.net> <272B4F00-FC83-4DAB-8DC3-CB45C02B0A70@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <2f806cd70709101233l39ed0c98x7aed658fe2681905@mail.gmail.com> On 10/09/2007, Dave McGuire wrote: > > Eh, I used to think that...but then I noticed how huge the impact > printer business is in certain indusries such as auto parts stores > and auto service centers. Pretty much every time I buy a part for a > car, I see an Okidata 320 or similar. > > I have NO idea why they haven't abandoned that technology...it > could be that it Just Works and doesn't give them any trouble. > Most of the businesses I dealt with had them for one reason: Multi-part forms..... Sometimes you need assurance that a copy actually is a copy.. Rob From ian_primus at yahoo.com Mon Sep 10 14:37:17 2007 From: ian_primus at yahoo.com (Mr Ian Primus) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 12:37:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Impact printers (was: Wang 300 Calc) In-Reply-To: <272B4F00-FC83-4DAB-8DC3-CB45C02B0A70@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <153193.13635.qm@web52704.mail.re2.yahoo.com> > > I went looking for an impact printer at the > college. There were none. > Eh, I used to think that...but then I noticed how > huge the impact > printer business is in certain indusries such as > auto parts stores > and auto service centers. Pretty much every time I > buy a part for a > car, I see an Okidata 320 or similar. > > I have NO idea why they haven't abandoned that > technology...it > could be that it Just Works and doesn't give them > any trouble. The technology does "just work". It's simple, reliable, works very easily with preprinted forms, it's easy to maintain, easy to make multiple copies with carbons, handles labels and weird print media (window stickers, etc) well, and many other niceties. For auto repair centers, they hold up very well to a grimy environment - the pin fed paper doesn't need to be picked up with easily gunked up rubber rollers, the paper path is typically simple, etc. And not just auto centers use impact printers. The big, high end ones are found in many places, printing reports, labels, checks, report cards, etc. I am still maintaining Printronix P600 matrix line printers, as well as other, newer Printronix machines. Dataproducts band printers and Fujitsu band printers are still out there as well. IBM, Lexmark, OkiData, and other small dot matrix printers are still in service in many places too. Printronix still makes high end matrix line printers, and OkiData dot matrix printers now have USB ports. They're not gone, they've just gone into hiding :) -Ian From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Sep 10 14:31:56 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 20:31:56 +0100 Subject: Motorola Exormacs - disk cable In-Reply-To: <20070910121326.A26091@shell.lmi.net> References: <46E58CD2.3000400@yahoo.co.uk> <20070910121326.A26091@shell.lmi.net> Message-ID: <46E59BAC.6010304@yahoo.co.uk> Fred Cisin wrote: > On Mon, 10 Sep 2007, Jules Richardson wrote: >> We've just acquired a Motorola Exormacs system, which is sadly without its >> floppy drive cable (40 pins on the Exormacs side, 50 on the 8" floppy unit >> (Exordrive III I believe). >> I suspect the floppy side is just straight-through to the drives, but can >> anyone confirm that, and does anyone know the pinout on the system unit side >> of things? > > Better check that! > "normal" 5.25" floppy is 34 pin. 40 pin implementations, such as some > PS/2s put power on those other 6 pins. Aha - no, I merely meant that the cable between the drives (8") and the back of the disk cabinet is *probably* straight-through. How it's wired between the 40 pin connector on the Exormacs itself and the 50 pin connector on the drive cab is a complete unknown (to us). Hopefully someone knows; failing that it's *probably* a recognised FDC in the system unit and so will be traceable. I'll do some more digging inside the machine if needs be, but I'm sure someone on here has mentioned that they have an Exormacs machine in the past... Of course there's a question of how usable it may be given the absence of any media; I'm not sure how much was in ROM on these machines and how much was booted from floppy. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Sep 10 14:35:21 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 20:35:21 +0100 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <2f806cd70709101233l39ed0c98x7aed658fe2681905@mail.gmail.com> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <46E46DE4.6070603@jetnet.ab.ca> <46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com> <2f806cd70709092352v6eb32e88v95b2663a416b99d4@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> <2f806cd70709100848t6b9fe2bcna590bb3ced2af081@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709101020t6a340654jee9e5b0825df6c9d@mail.gmail.com> <2f806cd70709101149m6082d8a4mca10403ef62dc163@mail.gmail.com> <20070910121700.K26091@shell.lmi.net> <272B4F00-FC83-4DAB-8DC3-CB45C02B0A70@neurotica.com> <2f806cd70709101233l39ed0c98x7aed658fe2681905@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E59C79.7010602@yahoo.co.uk> Rob wrote: > On 10/09/2007, Dave McGuire wrote: > >> Eh, I used to think that...but then I noticed how huge the impact >> printer business is in certain indusries such as auto parts stores >> and auto service centers. Pretty much every time I buy a part for a >> car, I see an Okidata 320 or similar. >> >> I have NO idea why they haven't abandoned that technology...it >> could be that it Just Works and doesn't give them any trouble. >> > > Most of the businesses I dealt with had them for one reason: > Multi-part forms..... Sometimes you need assurance that a copy > actually is a copy.. Valid point. I suspect impact printers handle a dirty / dusty environment a heck of a lot better than inkjets or lasers too. Plus given the high cost of toner / cartridges, there's perhaps still some cost savings in the old impacts where the line of work simply doesn't *need* to use anything else. From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 14:52:49 2007 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 12:52:49 -0700 Subject: 7 Vaxen + disks & monitors on Dovebid In-Reply-To: <46D93DFD.30048.5850AA1@cclist.sydex.com> References: <46D93BEF.311.57D0200@cclist.sydex.com> <46D93DFD.30048.5850AA1@cclist.sydex.com> Message-ID: <1e1fc3e90709101252m24a9cea0r932b9aa331e9b1bf@mail.gmail.com> On 9/1/07, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 1 Sep 2007 at 10:16, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > What do you think? Either surplus OSU equipment or possibly from the > > HP Corvallis facility? > > Never mind--it's the HP stuff as described by the listing. I needed > another cup of coffee... > ~Only~ $35K http://www.dovebid.com/assets/display.asp?ItemID=smi26204 From legalize at xmission.com Mon Sep 10 15:08:02 2007 From: legalize at xmission.com (Richard) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 14:08:02 -0600 Subject: 7 Vaxen + disks & monitors on Dovebid In-Reply-To: Your message of Mon, 10 Sep 2007 12:52:49 -0700. <1e1fc3e90709101252m24a9cea0r932b9aa331e9b1bf@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: In article <1e1fc3e90709101252m24a9cea0r932b9aa331e9b1bf at mail.gmail.com>, "Glen Slick" writes: > ~Only~ $35K > http://www.dovebid.com/assets/display.asp?ItemID=smi26204 Its the wafer equipment that's driving the price, not the VAXes. You can always contact the seller directly and ask if the vaxes can be listed separately. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download Legalize Adulthood! From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Sep 10 15:12:00 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 16:12:00 -0400 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: References: <200709072349.03888.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <200709101612.01230.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 09 September 2007 23:23, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Sep 7, 2007, at 11:49 PM, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > > Unfortunately instead of RS232 Televideo has something else going > > there (RS422?), not easy to interface too, and they distribute their > > "network" out amongst what other Televideo boxes you have, which in my > > case is none.I guess with an S-100-based system you could always add more > > cards, and somehow or other make it work. > > They were RS422 if memory serves. Probably. I never could keep those straight. I remember reading up on it at the time and that it was some kind of differential-current interface, and I might even have the datasheets for the chips they used, though heaven only knows where I'd get one if I needed one (probably ask on this list :-). > I worked at a computer store when I was in high school, from 1984 to > 1986...we used one of those > Televideo distributed CP/M-ish systems (810?) > there, for store operations/POS/inventory stuff. It worked very well and > was reliable, but it wasn't very fast. Our POS and inventory system was > written in CBASIC-80. It was good stuff. The difficulty I see is that if I were to ever want to try and use one of those I'd have to find hardware that would talk to it. Though I *did* get a hold of an ISA card with a boot rom that wanted to talk to that. I haven't the assembly skills to do a dump of it and see what it's trying for, but apparently it wants to load some file from the other end and of course isn't finding it. I guess if I'm ever gonna do anything with that box I'm gonna have to find some more TeleVideo hardware. Got a 40M _eight inch_ HD in it, along with a tape drive, I forget what kind but the book tells me that it stores a whopping 14MB. :-) The HD is belt-driven, and that slipping was I think one of the difficulties I was having the last time I tried to boot the machine. Don Maslin (sp?) sent me another belt, but I never got around to putting it in there. Too bad those aren't rs232 ports, that box could be useful for some things even if I never went anywhere near the original application. -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Sep 10 15:15:33 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 16:15:33 -0400 Subject: what's this? In-Reply-To: <5.1.0.14.2.20070909160807.03ac42f8@mail.30below.com> References: <573007.89716.qm@web61021.mail.yahoo.com> <5.1.0.14.2.20070909160807.03ac42f8@mail.30below.com> Message-ID: <200709101615.33301.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 09 September 2007 16:22, Roger Merchberger wrote: > > Why the worry about never knowing what you're clicking on? If > >you're worried about viruses, you're using a computing platform > >that's unsuitable for networked applications. > > Aren't we all? [[ read: who here actually read the list on their OS/2, VMS, > MVS/XA, etc. machines? IINM, there are a few viruses for MacOS, Linux & > friends... and at least a proof-of concept boot-sector virus written in x86 > assembly that can infect anything running x86 no matter what OS, I > believe... ]] Linux here, and I'm not worried about it, but also don't care to waste my time with following links to I know not what... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From rtellason at verizon.net Mon Sep 10 15:24:01 2007 From: rtellason at verizon.net (Roy J. Tellason) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 16:24:01 -0400 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: <0JO400AU8AF10K19@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> References: <0JO400AU8AF10K19@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> Message-ID: <200709101624.02055.rtellason@verizon.net> On Sunday 09 September 2007 16:04, Allison wrote: > >A while back I *almost* got a hold of one of those "z80 network in a box" > >systems, it wasn't S-100 but something else I can't recall, I think > > that's the one I have the book on, but I never did snag it. > > Multibus, very nice bus and expensive cards. I have a few multibus cards. > Intel used it in their MDS800 and a few otehrs as well. I remember seeing that in some sales literature and it always did strike me as being more spendy than I wanted or could afford to get into. :-) > >Unfortunately instead of RS232 Televideo has something else going there > >(RS422?), not easy to interface too, and they distribute their "network" > >out amongst what other Televideo boxes you have, which in my case is > > none. I guess with an S-100-based system you could always add more cards, > > and somehow or other make it work. > > > >And speaking of the networking aspect of it, do any of you guys know how > > they did it? I recall one time getting a glimpse of some system or other > > that was S-100 but also had a set of connectors at thet op of each card, > > which is what they used for their inter-processor linking rather than > > trying to push it through the bus. The reason for this is not apparent > > to me. > > Many ways to do it, using a commmon port or a pool of common memory for > in box networking and serial ports as well. There were also ARCnet, pre > Ethernet and even Ethernet. I know of ARCnet, went to a short seminar on that once at a trade show, and in fact even have a couple of ISA cards around here someplace, though I don't forsee me ever using them. > >I've also seen some "CP/M networking" stuff referred to that was supposed > > to work through serial ports, which pretty many machines had, althogh > > they appeared in at least one case to be using diodes to wire-OR RS232 > > signals, which doesn't strike me as too terribly robust. And what > > software support there was for this wasn't real apparent. > > That was a poor mans networking. Basically the serial ports were used as > CD/CSMA bus and there was some protocal like Ethernet but slower and could > use the usually common async chips. I have such a net going for my CP/M > crates and all. What does that take on the software side of things? > >I dunno, I've just got this fascination for assorted 8-bit parts talking > > to each other through some smallish number of wires, I guess it's easier > > to deal with than some of the big iron you guys handle regularly, which > > I can't afford to go get never mind housing. And I've seen multiple > > processors used in stuff already, as in some musical equipment that > > passed "event information" from one chip to the next with only a couple > > of pins, or the daisywheel printer that had _four_ 804x procesors in it > > for different functions. > > This is not a new thing. Nope. It's just my particular fascination these days. And probably a lot easier to deal with than lots of big iron. :-) > >TurboDOS is neat, and has some good design aspects in it, but there's > > too much legacy stuff in there for being able to run CP/M software, > > stuff I'd leave out if it were me and too much emphasis on the same old > > Console / Printer / Disk Drives in the system, as opposed to something > > different or unique. I found the same thing to be the case when I looked > > at FORTH, too much of the usual stuff, and that was supposed to have > > been used in some control applications? I must've missed something > > there... > > ???? Whats the question or point? Just that I'd like to see some stuff that isn't oriented that way. You have a SBC, you obviously need some way to talk to it, but the standard "console" stuff gets a little old, I probably don't want to hook a printer up to it, and may not even want a disk drive of any sort, depending on what I wanna do with it. I'm up for exploring some alternative approaches to doing things. Unfortunately the embedded stuff that's out there doesn't satisfy too often, the design being too specific to the app, source code not available, etc. I'm thinking that it should be possible to have some sort of a more generalized framework to hang things on, and then you could optimize it for specific uses, or expand it in different directions. Even from the earliest days "personal" computers all seemed to take pretty much the same approach to things... I realized in other messaging a while back that it's been well over a year since I fired up a soldering iron, and this is a bad thing. :-) And even then, it was a matter of scrapping stuff, not building anything new and interesting. I need to get out of that particular rut and get back to it, or there's no point to all those parts I've been scrounging for decades. Maybe one of these days I will... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, ?a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. ?--Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 10 15:51:12 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 13:51:12 -0700 Subject: 8-bitters and multi-whatever In-Reply-To: <200709101624.02055.rtellason@verizon.net> References: <0JO400AU8AF10K19@vms048.mailsrvcs.net>, <200709101624.02055.rtellason@verizon.net> Message-ID: <46E54BD0.18775.349AE246@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Sep 2007 at 16:24, Roy J. Tellason wrote: > I remember seeing that in some sales literature and it always did strike me as > being more spendy than I wanted or could afford to get into. :-) For the purist, Multibus has a lot more going for it than any of the "hobbyist" buses. If you look at the signal layout, it appears that some thought actually went into the design. AFAIK, Multibus cards in some incarnation are still being produced or at least sold. And the MDS-800 was built like a battleship. re: CP/M Networking: > What does that take on the software side of things? A CP/M add-on called CP/NET. The downside is that it takes valuable memory. PC's had a number of "cheap" networking setups. I've got one here called "The $25 Network", basically run through serial (maybe parallel) ports. There were others, some with low-cost cards, such as "The Invisible Network". I wonder if a ring could be set up using the old DOS Interlink. MS-DOS has had some flavor of networking "hooks" for a very long time. CD-ROM access is implemented as a networked device. I've implemented a number of foreign filesystem drivers using networking where file naming conventions or oddball block sizes weren't amenable to normal DOS filesystem conventions. Cheers, Chuck From als at thangorodrim.de Mon Sep 10 15:53:08 2007 From: als at thangorodrim.de (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 22:53:08 +0200 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <272B4F00-FC83-4DAB-8DC3-CB45C02B0A70@neurotica.com> References: <575131af0709090809k2437d360q379a5e0e2247b04b@mail.gmail.com> <46E46DE4.6070603@jetnet.ab.ca> <46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com> <2f806cd70709092352v6eb32e88v95b2663a416b99d4@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> <2f806cd70709100848t6b9fe2bcna590bb3ced2af081@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709101020t6a340654jee9e5b0825df6c9d@mail.gmail.com> <2f806cd70709101149m6082d8a4mca10403ef62dc163@mail.gmail.com> <20070910121700.K26091@shell.lmi.net> <272B4F00-FC83-4DAB-8DC3-CB45C02B0A70@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <20070910205308.GA5101@thangorodrim.de> On Mon, Sep 10, 2007 at 03:26:33PM -0400, Dave McGuire wrote: > On Sep 10, 2007, at 3:18 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >>That's true, but then, a simple old dot-matrix makes a more > >>distinctive pictogram than a laser, which tends to be a simple box. > > > >I went looking for an impact printer at the college. There were none. > >While it may be "distictive" to US, in another few years, we're > >going to > >be the only ones who know what one looks like. > > Eh, I used to think that...but then I noticed how huge the impact > printer business is in certain indusries such as auto parts stores > and auto service centers. Pretty much every time I buy a part for a > car, I see an Okidata 320 or similar. > > I have NO idea why they haven't abandoned that technology...it > could be that it Just Works and doesn't give them any trouble. Try getting a (real) carbon copy with an inkjet or a laser ... and yes, the ability to print several forms with identical contents is important in some places (one for the customer, one for the archive, one for the guy handing out the parts from the warehouse, ...). Regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 10 16:16:52 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 14:16:52 -0700 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <20070910205308.GA5101@thangorodrim.de> References: <575131af0709090809k2437d360q379a5e0e2247b04b@mail.gmail.com>, <272B4F00-FC83-4DAB-8DC3-CB45C02B0A70@neurotica.com>, <20070910205308.GA5101@thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <46E551D4.1979.34B26122@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Sep 2007 at 22:53, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > Try getting a (real) carbon copy with an inkjet or a laser ... > and yes, the ability to print several forms with identical contents is > important in some places (one for the customer, one for the archive, one > for the guy handing out the parts from the warehouse, ...). Some operations required (may still require) forms produced in triplicate and not simply copied. The real estate title business used to be that way, though I suspect it doesn't now. What raised my eyebrows were the extra-wide carriage (i.e. 3-4 feet) multiple-headed Diablo daisywheels used in banks. Or so I was told when I saw one in a surplus dealer's store and asked about it. I still use a typewriter (Selectric III) for filling in forms and addressing envelopes. It's best for me--my handwriting is atrocious and block printing just doesn't seem like something an adult should be doing on correspondence. Cheers, Chuck From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 10 17:21:17 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 23:21:17 +0100 (BST) Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> from "Liam Proven" at Sep 10, 7 03:32:18 pm Message-ID: > Now, imagine you'd bought a French computer. If the port was clearly > labelled IMPRIMATEUR. Would that help you? I thought it was actually 'Imprimante' but anyway... > > Probably not. > > What if it were clearly labelled in Russian? Or Arabic? Or Chinese? > > No bally use at all. Yes it darn well is..... There exist these wonderful things called 'foreign language dictionaries' that I cna look up said words in (and for the record, I have managed to use a Russian dictionary to =figrue out the repair manual for a Russian camera). Or, if I can't use, say., a Chinese dictionary, there are plenty of people who speak both Chinese and English and who could help me by translating the 'words' on the back of my machine. The problem with the icons is that they're not universal. If I can't find the manual for whatever I am working on, there's no 'dictionary' I can look them up in. Finding a native speaker of the language of the country where the machine was made (or intended to be sold) won't help. I've had electornic devices with the connectors/controlls labelled in French, German, Russian, and problaby several other languages. None has caused me any problems -- unlike those darn icons. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 10 17:28:46 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 23:28:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <575131af0709101020t6a340654jee9e5b0825df6c9d@mail.gmail.com> from "Liam Proven" at Sep 10, 7 06:20:27 pm Message-ID: > > > But a little picture of a printer works everywhere. > > > > > > > Only if you know what a printer is looks like. And I don't know about > > you, but the "little picture of a printer" on, let's say, the Print > > button in MS Word, looks absolutely nothing like any of the printers I > > have here. Now *I* know that it looks like a big old impact printer, > > with output coming from the top, but the vast majority of the general > > public these days will never have seen such a beast! [...] > > That's true, but then, a simple old dot-matrix makes a more > distinctive pictogram than a laser, which tends to be a simple box. > > But so long as people learn to associate the pictogram with its > meaning, it works, and it's international and does not require > literacy. Quite why I'd want illeterates to be connecting cables to my computer is totally beyond me... If you have to learn that $icon means 'connect printer cable here' you can equally easilly learn that you connect said cable to a connector labelled wit hte string of chracters 'printer'. Or 'imprimante'. Or 'drucker' or whatver it is in any other langage. Am English-language manual fro a French device could quite easliy contain the statement 'Connect the parellel printer cable to the 25 pin socket labelled 'imprimante'' . That would be as easy to follow as using the icon, with the benefit that if the manual got lost, a French-English dictionary would explain the use of that connector. -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Sep 10 17:13:46 2007 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 23:13:46 +0100 (BST) Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 9, 7 08:02:57 pm Message-ID: > > On 9 Sep 2007 at 16:04, woodelf wrote: > > > But the problem with Icons is that they are culture specfic. > > + This may be a FAN in the USA. > > V This is a FAN in Japan. > > > This concept is elaborated well in Neal Stephenson's /The Diamond Age/. > > Keeping things on-vintage, when were icons first used on PeeCee > hardware? If you mean IBM-compatible, then the IBM monitors, right back to the 5151 (original MDA monitor) had the 'sun' for brightness and the 'half moon' for contrast. THe PC/AT had icons on the front of the case. The hard disk LED has a 'drum store'-like symbol above it (the one you'd use in flowcharting for a disk/drum operation), the power-on LED has a 'light bulb' icon and the keylock has the open and close padlock icons (normally called the 'oil can' and 'handbag' over here :-)) > > I have to admit that I'm another one who's mystified by icons; unless > they're part of some very specialized application. Such as in You are not alone. > musical transcription software, where an eighth note (quaver for you > in the UK) means just that--to write it out in words would take > longer to interpret than "You want an eighth note? Just click on the > eighth note." "Sixty-fourth note" or "hemidemisemiquaver" is just > too cumbersome. Yes, but musical notation is, AFAIK, pretty much standardised, and the icons used in such a program are those used on printes sheet music too. Similarly I'd have no problem with an electronic CAD program that let me choose a resistor by clicking on an icon that looked like --/\/\/-- . That is one of the standard symbols for such a component, understood almost universally. But this is not the case with some of the other icons I see on PC cases. Darn it, different manufucaturers seem to use similar, but different-in-detail icons for serial and parallel ports... -tony From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 10 17:54:45 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 15:54:45 -0700 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: References: <46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com> from "Chuck Guzis" at Sep 9, 7 08:02:57 pm, Message-ID: <46E568C5.19558.350BFD63@cclist.sydex.com> On 10 Sep 2007 at 23:13, Tony Duell wrote: > If you mean IBM-compatible, then the IBM monitors, right back to the 5151 > (original MDA monitor) had the 'sun' for brightness and the 'half moon' > for contrast. I remember that and also that it didn't seem strange to me. Were there icons on the 5100 cable fittings or controls? Cheers, Chuck From Tim at Rikers.org Mon Sep 10 18:00:13 2007 From: Tim at Rikers.org (Tim Riker) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 17:00:13 -0600 Subject: Apple boot disks? In-Reply-To: <30904C61-CEAD-4723-BEEC-5823E39BC2A3@neurotica.com> References: <30904C61-CEAD-4723-BEEC-5823E39BC2A3@neurotica.com> Message-ID: <46E5CC7D.7060107@Rikers.org> Dave McGuire wrote: > Is there anyone here with a running Apple ][-class system who would be > willing to cut some boot floppies of Apple DOS 3.3 and/or ProDOS and > send them to me? I finally got a good composite video monitor and I'm > in need of a diversion. This would be for a ][+ and a //e. If you have a serial card (like the apple super serial card) you can boot the machine over serial and image over a boot disk to use later. look for ADT in the various versions. Here's one for that handles other prodos devices too: http://adtpro.sourceforge.net/ In short, you hook up another computer to the serial card. you enter IN#2 so that you can control the machine over serial, then you send a text file with the ADT apple app over which enters itself in hex in the apple debugger. Note: this can also be done over an audio link as if you were a cassette loader. I've not tried this. The serial version has worked well for me. -- Tim Riker - http://Rikers.org/ - TimR at Debian.org Embedded Linux Technologist - http://eLinux.org/ BZFlag maintainer - http://BZFlag.org/ - for fun! From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Mon Sep 10 18:12:27 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 00:12:27 +0100 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? References: Message-ID: <006201c7f400$0f87e4d0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > PE (Practical Electorncc) 'CHAMP' system, in 1977 or so. It >was built on stribboard (and IC postion layouts were given, but >you had to work out where to run the wires from the shcematic). >As was the assembly listing of the monitor ROM. A couple of years later they produced the "System 68", a 6800 based machine constructed on Eurocard sized PCBs (though using an edge connector rather than a DIN-whatever connector). IIRC circuit diagrams and PCB layouts were provided, along with a full listing of the system monitor program. You could even buy ready made PCBs (and kits of parts?) from a little company called "Newbury Data"....they actually had an office a couple of miles down the road from here at the time. Not sure whether ETI published the PCB layout for the "Triton" (I'm pretty sure they didn't, it was a fairly large, through hole plated PCB), but they sure publisged the schematics and monitor listings. Then there was the UK101.... :-) TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Mon Sep 10 18:21:17 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 00:21:17 +0100 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? References: Message-ID: <006701c7f401$49ed46a0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > There's at least the Janus card, which implements a basic Atari ST >on an ISA board ... That name sounds familiar, it's likely the one I was thinking of. One of my friends has one (the one I sold all my ST gear to around '92/'92 as it happens) but even though he's mentioned the name to me several times I'm a bit hazy on it. For some reason "Spectrum" or some (probably incredibly vaguely) similar sounding name also lingers at the back of my mind.... > .... i own the 68000 version, but it seems, there was an 68020 >version available too. I *think* there may also be a "TT-on-a-card"....but don't quote me on that (I've never checked). > A DOS based driver is available, that handles all the I/O handling via >the PC. I always wanted to get that driver ported to OS/2 (running Atari >SW in a OS/2 PM-Window is definitely amazing :)), but never got any >technical information ... I've toyed with the idea of getting one of these cards on several occasions, but since the drivers won't run under NT based operating systems they're not of any use to me whatsoever. :-( TTFN - Pete. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Sep 10 18:22:31 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 00:22:31 +0100 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <006201c7f400$0f87e4d0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <006201c7f400$0f87e4d0$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <46E5D1B7.4080805@yahoo.co.uk> Ensor wrote: [System 68] > IIRC circuit diagrams and PCB layouts were provided, along with a full > listing of the system monitor program. That latter's the important bit; there are just too many computing-related projects in magazines of old for which the software / firmware had to be sent away for - and of course whilst the magazines (and hence schematics) survive, the code which they ran has typically long since gone :-( > You could even buy ready made > PCBs (and kits of parts?) from a little company called "Newbury > Data" Hmm, that name rings a bell for some reason. > Not sure whether ETI published the PCB layout for the "Triton" (I'm > pretty sure they didn't, it was a fairly large, through hole plated > PCB), but they sure publisged the schematics and monitor listings. I'll have a look if I remember; I think we've got a pretty comprehensive set of ETIs from around that period. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Mon Sep 10 18:38:49 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 00:38:49 +0100 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? References: Message-ID: <008401c7f403$bd67bc80$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > And I think there was an ARM-2 development system on an >ISA card. Never seen it, though. There was also an Atari Jaguar on an PCI card, Creative Labs' "Jaguar Blaster". They seem to be pretty thin on the ground though, I'd love to get one.... TTFN - Pete. From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Mon Sep 10 18:46:14 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 00:46:14 +0100 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? References: Message-ID: <008b01c7f404$d940fd30$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Actually, thinking about it, ISTR that the "Jaguar Blaster" never made it to market (despite being demoed at several electronics shows). Which would certainly explain their scarcity, LOL. Anyone know for sure? TTFN - Pete. From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Mon Sep 10 18:52:49 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 00:52:49 +0100 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46E5D8D1.60400@yahoo.co.uk> Tony Duell wrote: > And I think there was an ARM-2 development system on an ISA card. Never > seen it, though Looking at a photo of one of mine (the one with the additional I/O controller and Acorn bus connector), it seems to be an ARM2 CPU - not an ARM1 as I'd remembered. (At least Google gives the impression that the VL-2333 chip is a second-generation). I think I even have software for it. Unfortunately I'm not sure that I have the firmware, which makes it a little bit useless :-) (Given that it seems to use a standard TUBE ULA to communicate with the ISA bus, I suppose there's a very slim chance that it'll work with Acorn's 'Brazil' ROMs from some of their other early/dev hardware, but I wouldn't hold my breath...) From classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk Mon Sep 10 19:04:21 2007 From: classiccmp at memory-alpha.org.uk (Ensor) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 01:04:21 +0100 Subject: Wang 300 Calc References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <00cc01c7f407$4e2a9370$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Hi, > Clearly labeled and obvious buttons and controls >are a thing of the past.... Amen to that. Many devices nowadays are labelled with what appear to be heiroglyphics.... >....While they were at it, designers decided that it >would be a good idea for power indicators to light up >when something is off, and go out when it's on.... First time I encountered that little doozy was with the tuner on my hi-fi, that would have been around 1987ish. And we're talking a ?250 (~$500) tuner here, not some cheap tat.... >....Or how about a stereo with an animated "attract >mode" when off? That sort of stuff drives me up the wall. My ex-girlfriend has a stereo (Toshiba I think) with that wonderful feature too....hey, you can even play games ot it!!!! 8-| TTFN - Pete. From lproven at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 19:27:33 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 01:27:33 +0100 Subject: [SPAM(date)] Re: PS/2 webserver In-Reply-To: <46E62D6B.4000008@gmail.com> References: <575131af0709101022i55740bd5o8d4e1869c85ad858@mail.gmail.com> <46E62D6B.4000008@gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0709101727t3ca9c870sd4464a8197024f2d@mail.gmail.com> On 11/09/2007, Sridhar Ayengar wrote: > Liam Proven wrote: > > Merely curious. Does anyone know of any IBM PS/2 machines - the proper > > Microchannel ones - hosting websites today? > > > > I know of a number of very old Macs doing so, including a Mac Plus > > with a website on floppy, machines running System 6 and AU/X. I've > > even visited a website hosted on a Commodore 64, I seem to recall. > > > > But never a PS/2 one. > > It's down at the moment, but anchor.ikickass.org is a PS/2 Model 95. Cheers for that! M95, eh? That's quite a modern one, isn't it - a 486 or even a Pentium? I am considering trying to put my old Model 80-A21 - once the LAN server on my home net - on the Web as a webserver. I like the idea of a webserver that is significantly older than the Web itself. :-) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 19:30:11 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 01:30:11 +0100 Subject: Ancient 8086/80286 unixes? In-Reply-To: <46E5D8D1.60400@yahoo.co.uk> References: <46E5D8D1.60400@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <575131af0709101730i21f8ea35qb9a2f0392d42a553@mail.gmail.com> On 11/09/2007, Jules Richardson wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > > And I think there was an ARM-2 development system on an ISA card. Never > > seen it, though > > Looking at a photo of one of mine (the one with the additional I/O controller > and Acorn bus connector), it seems to be an ARM2 CPU - not an ARM1 as I'd > remembered. (At least Google gives the impression that the VL-2333 chip is a > second-generation). > > I think I even have software for it. Unfortunately I'm not sure that I have > the firmware, which makes it a little bit useless :-) (Given that it seems to > use a standard TUBE ULA to communicate with the ISA bus, I suppose there's a > very slim chance that it'll work with Acorn's 'Brazil' ROMs from some of their > other early/dev hardware, but I wouldn't hold my breath...) Wasn't there an ARM "accelerator" for PCs, called the Springboard IIRC? Most of an Archimedes' core logic, but no sound/display or storage, on a big ISA board. [Googles] Here we go... http://acorn.chriswhy.co.uk/docs/Mags/PCW/PCW_Jan88_Springboard.pdf -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 19:47:37 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 01:47:37 +0100 Subject: Wang 300 Calc --> 0/1 power labels In-Reply-To: <46E58D9E.EC4770D5@cs.ubc.ca> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <575131af0709090809k2437d360q379a5e0e2247b04b@mail.gmail.com> <46E46DE4.6070603@jetnet.ab.ca> <46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com> <2f806cd70709092352v6eb32e88v95b2663a416b99d4@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> <2f806cd70709100848t6b9fe2bcna590bb3ced2af081@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709101020t6a340654jee9e5b0825df6c9d@mail.gmail.com> <46E58D9E.EC4770D5@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <575131af0709101747w46267f74q24bd5d4433b2a43e@mail.gmail.com> On 10/09/2007, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Liam Proven wrote: > > On 10/09/2007, Rob wrote: > > > On 10/09/2007, Liam Proven wrote: > > > > > > > But a little picture of a printer works everywhere. > > > > > > Only if you know what a printer is looks like. And I don't know about > > > you, but the "little picture of a printer" on, let's say, the Print > > > button in MS Word, looks absolutely nothing like any of the printers I > > > have here. Now *I* know that it looks like a big old impact printer, > > > with output coming from the top, but the vast majority of the general > > > public these days will never have seen such a beast! [...] > > > > That's true, but then, a simple old dot-matrix makes a more > > distinctive pictogram than a laser, which tends to be a simple box. > > > > But so long as people learn to associate the pictogram with its > > meaning, it works, and it's international and does not require > > literacy. > > A pictogram which is not obviously a representation of it's target is not a > pictogram, it's a symbol. Er, no. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pictogram > Learning to associate a symbol with it's meaning is > pretty much the definition of literacy. It is a /form/ of literacy, yes. It's an easy one without international bias, though. > The argument is that due to their > diversity, inconsistency, and non-pictogram-ness (sorry), these symbols > haven't solved anything (other than being politically correct in not giving > priority to one culture's natural language), they've just become a new obscure > language to learn. (A language which as someone else pointed out, is > unsearchable, at least for the time being.) It is simply not possible to make an image that resembles /all/ printers. What you would then be trying to achieve is not a pictogram but an ideogram, a symbol representing an idea or concept. The best that we can do is a picture of a box with, coming out of it, a piece of paper with writing on. That pretty clearly represents a printer in every country in the world, which /no/ word for printer in any language does. > I would argue that your example of written Chinese actually makes the opposite > point to your intent: one has to be literate in the now arbitrary association > of symbols to meaning to understand the symbols. It may be freed from a spoken > form but that's not the issue, the arbitrariness or non-intuitive-ness of the > association is. To read and write Chinese, one needs to memorise a whole writing system, including stroke order, bases and radicals, involving some ten thousand odd symbols for good literacy. A few thousand will suffice for everyday non-technical use. To know a printer socket from a SCSI socket, you need to memorise what, half a dozen? Maybe a dozen? If you can't do that, you shouldn't be playing with computers, they're too hard for you. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 19:54:17 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 01:54:17 +0100 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <46E5898D.7090809@yahoo.co.uk> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <575131af0709090809k2437d360q379a5e0e2247b04b@mail.gmail.com> <46E46DE4.6070603@jetnet.ab.ca> <46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com> <2f806cd70709092352v6eb32e88v95b2663a416b99d4@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> <46E5898D.7090809@yahoo.co.uk> Message-ID: <575131af0709101754i7313a7c5y6a59edfc60ca60b0@mail.gmail.com> On 10/09/2007, Jules Richardson wrote: > Liam Proven wrote: > > On 10/09/07, Rob wrote: > >> On 10/09/2007, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> > >>> Keeping things on-vintage, when were icons first used on PeeCee > >>> hardware? > >> Hmm... I've been mystified by strange symbols above connectors on the > >> backs of machines for a while now... Especially when it's from a > >> manufacturer I don't usually deal with. At least my own interest, the > >> BBC micro, got this right! Proper words on the ports.. > > > > The BBC Micro, a machine designed in England for Brits. > > I suspect it was more that the primary market was education, so it made sense > to be as user-friendly as possible by stating exactly what each port was. Education /in Britain/. It was the *BBC* Micro. > > > Now, imagine you'd bought a French computer. If the port was clearly > > labelled IMPRIMATEUR. Would that help you? > > If I bought a French computer I'd either rely on enough knowledge of French to > get by, or I'd look up what I needed to know. > > Given that manuals and software have to be regionalised for the intended > market, it hardly seems much effort on the part of the manufacturer to issue > case decals that are also regionalised. There seems little excuse for a > pictogram that might be ambiguous in *all* languages just because the > manufacturer was lazy or was trying to save a few pennies. I think that is absolute reverse of the case, actually. Printing a new manual is cheap; redesigning case mouldings or even just what's printed onto the case means retooling production lines, producing different models for different markets, tracking which country each machine is destined for... Vast amounts of complexity. Any manager or designer who suggested this would deserve to be fired for incompetence. > I suspect the number of times that a person is plonked in front of an alien > machine with absolutely no knowledge of the written language of the country > from which the machine is from is pretty small. In most cases it would only > happen when the person is visiting a foreign country, and in that case you'd > expect them to be making an effort to understand the language anyway. I think you believe that because you speak the world's most widespread international language. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From lproven at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 20:02:33 2007 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 02:02:33 +0100 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: References: <575131af0709101020t6a340654jee9e5b0825df6c9d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <575131af0709101802h6d9eb809xa8b6915a8233d112@mail.gmail.com> On 10/09/2007, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > But a little picture of a printer works everywhere. > > > > > > > > > > Only if you know what a printer is looks like. And I don't know about > > > you, but the "little picture of a printer" on, let's say, the Print > > > button in MS Word, looks absolutely nothing like any of the printers I > > > have here. Now *I* know that it looks like a big old impact printer, > > > with output coming from the top, but the vast majority of the general > > > public these days will never have seen such a beast! [...] > > > > That's true, but then, a simple old dot-matrix makes a more > > distinctive pictogram than a laser, which tends to be a simple box. > > > > But so long as people learn to associate the pictogram with its > > meaning, it works, and it's international and does not require > > literacy. > > Quite why I'd want illeterates to be connecting cables to my computer is > totally beyond me... I never can tell with you, Tony, whether you faking it and taking the mick, being deliberately obtuse to make some kind of point, or genuinely think in a very strange way. The point, as I have already spelled out abundantly clearly, is that someone may be perfectly literate and fluent in multiple languages and completely unfamiliar with English or even the Roman script. People who do not speak, read or write English use computers too, you know. What's more, they outnumber us by a very large margin. The biggest country in the world not only doesn't use our alphabet, it doesn't natively use an alphabet of any kind whatsoever. > If you have to learn that $icon means 'connect printer cable here' you > can equally easilly learn that you connect said cable to a connector > labelled wit hte string of chracters 'printer'. Or 'imprimante'. Or > 'drucker' or whatver it is in any other langage. Am English-language > manual fro a French device could quite easliy contain the statement > 'Connect the parellel printer cable to the 25 pin socket labelled > 'imprimante'' . That would be as easy to follow as using the icon, with > the benefit that if the manual got lost, a French-English dictionary > would explain the use of that connector. It is much simpler for everyone concerned /all over the world/ if you just match the symbol on the end of the cable with the one on the socket on the back of the computer. Yes, the word is easier, *in a single country*. But the computer market is, and has been for many decades, an international one. Hint: never wonder why there was a Psion 1, 2, 3 and 5 but not a 4? Because "4" in Mandarin Chinese - a tonal language where a single syllable has from 5 to 9 totally different meanings depending on the tone of voice in which you sing it - Chinese is sung, not spoken - the word for "4" is the same as the word for "death". You can't indicate the tone in non-Chinese writing, so when you write 4, you write death. A machine called the Psion Death would not sell well, for obvious reasons. So, Psion skipped the entire number. Almost anyone doing business in China does the same. Of course, if you write /four/ in Chinese it looks totally different from the ideogram for /death/ - but you would have difficulty marketing one product in a range internationally when it was named only in Chinese. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat: liamproven at aol.com ? MSN/Messenger: lproven at hotmail.com Yahoo: liamproven at yahoo.co.uk ? Skype: liamproven ? ICQ: 73187508 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Sep 10 20:39:16 2007 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (woodelf) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 19:39:16 -0600 Subject: Wang 300 Calc - OT stereo In-Reply-To: <00cc01c7f407$4e2a9370$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <00cc01c7f407$4e2a9370$0a01a8c0@memoryalpha.org.uk> Message-ID: <46E5F1C4.9000400@jetnet.ab.ca> Ensor wrote: > That sort of stuff drives me up the wall. My ex-girlfriend has a stereo > (Toshiba I think) with that wonderful feature too....hey, you can even > play games ot it!!!! 8-| How about the TIME to upgrade to Better sounding Err Higher priced stuff game. > TTFN - Pete. I have a idea for a nice 2 watt valve/tube amp but need a second view point on the design. I have general schematic roughed out, but not sure if it will work as it all depends on the Power Supply, something I need help with? Any takers on this list ... Contact me off list. Ben alias woodelf From cclist at sydex.com Mon Sep 10 20:46:01 2007 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 18:46:01 -0700 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <575131af0709101802h6d9eb809xa8b6915a8233d112@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0709101020t6a340654jee9e5b0825df6c9d@mail.gmail.com>, , <575131af0709101802h6d9eb809xa8b6915a8233d112@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E590E9.25276.35A8C6DD@cclist.sydex.com> On 11 Sep 2007 at 2:02, Liam Proven wrote: > It is much simpler for everyone concerned /all over the world/ if you > just match the symbol on the end of the cable with the one on the > socket on the back of the computer. Symbols and labels on connectors on consumer devices have always smelled like a hack to me. It would seem that the optimal solution is to design the connectors so that it's IMPOSSIBLE to mate them up improperly. Why have a mouse that can plug into the same mini-DIN connector into which a keyboard can plug? Why not devise each connector with a uniquely-shaped and sized receptacle and plug (a simple receptacle collar and molded cable head would do) so that installation becomes a matter of plugging the triangular shaped plug into the like-shaped receptacle? I've never heard of anyone trying to plug an RJ-45 network connector into a DB-25 printer socket. For an extreme example of the wrong-headedness of thoughtless design, consider the lowly "wall wart" power supply. As an exercise, take all of the warts from all of the devices in your house and place them in a pile in the middle of a room. Draw the curtains and turn off the lights and try to match warts up with devices without toasting any. How the seeing-impaired manage in this world is beyond comprehension. Cheers, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Sep 10 21:07:03 2007 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 19:07:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <575131af0709101802h6d9eb809xa8b6915a8233d112@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0709101020t6a340654jee9e5b0825df6c9d@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709101802h6d9eb809xa8b6915a8233d112@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20070910190150.O46176@shell.lmi.net> > > Quite why I'd want illeterates to be connecting cables to my computer is > > totally beyond me... On Tue, 11 Sep 2007, Liam Proven wrote: > I never can tell with you, Tony, whether you faking it and taking the > mick, being deliberately obtuse to make some kind of point, or > genuinely think in a very strange way. > The point, as I have already spelled out abundantly clearly, is that > someone may be perfectly literate and fluent in multiple languages and > completely unfamiliar with English or even the Roman script. > People who do not speak, read or write English use computers too, you Why can't they just open the box and look at the circuitry? If it's got a UART, and maybe some 1488,1489 chips, then it is serial, etc. I don't know much of anything about electronics, but I can still usually recognize what ports are for. > It is much simpler for everyone concerned /all over the world/ if you > just match the symbol on the end of the cable with the one on the > socket on the back of the computer. > Yes, the word is easier, *in a single country*. But the computer > market is, and has been for many decades, an international one. But, if a computer is made in a different country than the printer, then the pictures will probably not match. There is at least one documented case of a fatality from the frustration of "RS232" printer interfacing. > A machine called the Psion Death would not sell well, for obvious > reasons. So, Psion skipped the entire number. Almost anyone doing > business in China does the same. That would be a nice item to have in a collection. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 22:32:34 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 23:32:34 -0400 Subject: [SPAM(date)] Re: PS/2 webserver In-Reply-To: <575131af0709101727t3ca9c870sd4464a8197024f2d@mail.gmail.com> References: <575131af0709101022i55740bd5o8d4e1869c85ad858@mail.gmail.com> <46E62D6B.4000008@gmail.com> <575131af0709101727t3ca9c870sd4464a8197024f2d@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E60C52.1020106@gmail.com> Liam Proven wrote: > Cheers for that! > > M95, eh? That's quite a modern one, isn't it - a 486 or even a Pentium? It's an AMD K6-2, believe it or not. I have another mod 95 as a print server. I chose it because it has two parallel ports on the motherboard. I could probably switch to something that uses less juice, but it's been so freakin' rock-solid that I don't feel I should screw with it. It's running four printers. Two parallel, one serial and one SCSI. > I am considering trying to put my old Model 80-A21 - once the LAN > server on my home net - on the Web as a webserver. I like the idea of > a webserver that is significantly older than the Web itself. :-) I'd consider an 8580-Axx newish. It has *gasp* CACHE! I have a video editing workstation built out of an 8550. A whole 10MHz!!! I've collected microchannel hardware for a number of years. Peace... Sridhar From g-wright at att.net Mon Sep 10 22:45:04 2007 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 03:45:04 +0000 Subject: Motorola Exormacs - disk cable Message-ID: <091120070345.23340.46E60F3F0008F91D00005B2C21602813029B0809079D99D309@att.net> -------------- Original message from Jules Richardson : -------------- > > We've just acquired a Motorola Exormacs system, which is sadly without its > floppy drive cable (40 pins on the Exormacs side, 50 on the 8" floppy unit > (Exordrive III I believe). > > I suspect the floppy side is just straight-through to the drives, but can > anyone confirm that, and does anyone know the pinout on the system unit side > of things? > > Worst-case we'll have to reverse engineer it, but maybe someone knows (we've > got no floppies for the system and no useful manuals unfortunately) > > cheers > > Jules I have a Disk II here and the cable is 40 pin from the back of the drive to te controller card.. If needed it can open it up and see what happens inside. The boot images are on Bit Savers but not set up yet. I have the URL if needed Still working on the NCR's - Jerry Jerry Wright JLC inc g-wright at att.net From g-wright at att.net Mon Sep 10 22:51:27 2007 From: g-wright at att.net (g-wright at att.net) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 03:51:27 +0000 Subject: Moto MVME121 paper Message-ID: <091120070351.28959.46E610BE000013AF0000711F21602813029B0809079D99D309@att.net> -------------- Original message from "Chuck Guzis" : -------------- > Under the heading of "where did *that* come from?", I've stumbled on > a loose leaf binder from Motorola titled "MVME121 System Hardware > Manual". There are several publications within, but the bulk of the > binder's taken up by a document called "MVME319 Intelligent Disk/Tape > Controller User's Manual", which contains all sorts of detail, > including principles of operation, command layouts and schematics. > Circa 1986. > > A customer must've sent it to me; I have no use for it. Anyone want > it for the cost of shipping? > > Cheers, > Chuck > Hi Chuck If you have not found a home for this, I will take it. Jerry Wright JLC inc. 1517 So Central Ave Kent, Wa. 98032 Just let me know how much and where to send it. - Jerry From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Sep 10 22:57:14 2007 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (Teo Zenios) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 23:57:14 -0400 Subject: [SPAM(date)] Re: PS/2 webserver References: <575131af0709101022i55740bd5o8d4e1869c85ad858@mail.gmail.com> <46E62D6B.4000008@gmail.com> <575131af0709101727t3ca9c870sd4464a8197024f2d@mail.gmail.com> <46E60C52.1020106@gmail.com> Message-ID: <009001c7f427$d70242e0$1300a8c0@game> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sridhar Ayengar" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, September 10, 2007 11:32 PM Subject: Re: [SPAM(date)] Re: PS/2 webserver > I have a video editing workstation built out of an 8550. A whole 10MHz!!! > > I've collected microchannel hardware for a number of years. > > Peace... Sridhar What MCA hardware is used for video editing? From bshannon at tiac.net Mon Sep 10 23:25:45 2007 From: bshannon at tiac.net (Bob Shannon) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 00:25:45 -0400 Subject: Shelby HamFest References: <1187833285.10606.7.camel@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <002d01c7f42b$d4626de0$0100a8c0@screamer> Hello Steve, We should talk about swapping those machines soon. I may need to travel south shortly. Bob S. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Steve Robertson" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 22, 2007 9:41 PM Subject: Shelby HamFest > Hey guys, > > What is advertised as the "granddaddy of all hamfests" is coming up, at > the end of this month, in Shelby North Carolina. I have never been to > this particular event and will likely attend this years festivities. > > Does anyone else on this list plan on attending? > Has anyone attended the Shelby hamfest before? > > Thanks, SteveRob > steerex ccvn com > > From ploopster at gmail.com Mon Sep 10 23:37:36 2007 From: ploopster at gmail.com (Sridhar Ayengar) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 00:37:36 -0400 Subject: [SPAM(date)] Re: PS/2 webserver In-Reply-To: <009001c7f427$d70242e0$1300a8c0@game> References: <575131af0709101022i55740bd5o8d4e1869c85ad858@mail.gmail.com> <46E62D6B.4000008@gmail.com> <575131af0709101727t3ca9c870sd4464a8197024f2d@mail.gmail.com> <46E60C52.1020106@gmail.com> <009001c7f427$d70242e0$1300a8c0@game> Message-ID: <46E61B90.4060208@gmail.com> Teo Zenios wrote: >> I have a video editing workstation built out of an 8550. A whole 10MHz!!! >> >> I've collected microchannel hardware for a number of years. > > What MCA hardware is used for video editing? M-Motion Video Capture Adapter/A. Only does 640x480x16, but has *loads* of I/O. The editing is done in software, very slowly. Peace... Sridhar From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Sep 10 13:43:22 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 14:43:22 -0400 Subject: VT103 (was Re: Reviving DEC RX01 power supply) Message-ID: <0JO6004ZZ1BLI223@vms044.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: VT103 (was Re: Reviving DEC RX01 power supply) > From: Roger Ivie > Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 07:42:28 -0700 (PDT) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" > >On Mon, 10 Sep 2007, Dave McGuire wrote: >> On Sep 9, 2007, at 5:54 PM, Roger Ivie wrote: >>> >>> I knew a fellow who claimed to have build a MicroVAX II in a VT103. I >>> never saw it and don't know the details, but I believed him. He was >>> some sort of meta-service guy at DEC (i.e., he got called when the >>> normal service guys couldn't figure it out) and I think the machine >>> was on the DEC internal network. IIRC (and I might not), his name was >>> Ozzie Perez and the node name was OZZIE:: >> >> Are you sure that wasn't "Ernie"? That sounds like something my old friend >> and mentor Ernie Perez might have tried. > >Pretty sure it was Ozzie. The big problem with putting a MicroVAX in the VT103 is enough slots for memory and a disk interface. It's certainly doable and when you consider some of the plans floated for 11/73s, why not uVAX. Allison >-- >roger ivie >rivie at ridgenet.net From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Sep 10 13:47:20 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 14:47:20 -0400 Subject: Portable PDP-11 (was Re: Does anyone use RT-11?) Message-ID: <0JO6000791I8W464@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Portable PDP-11 (was Re: Does anyone use RT-11?) > From: "e.stiebler" > Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 12:18:26 -0600 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >Ethan Dicks wrote: > > If course, if a project were to erupt that was some form of portable >> J-11 design w/1MB or more of SRAM and some local mass storage, I would >> certainly strongly consider building one, even if I had to borrow a >> J-11 chip from one of my two sources. > >But the j-11 are alos very easy to get, as a lot 11/73 boards are >showing even on ebay for dirt cheap. And a SBC-11-+++ would be also a >nice project, getting SCSI or IDE, 4 MBytes of ram, 100 mbit ethernet, ... IF you have the part on Qbus already then a small backplance with other scaled sized parts and it's left to being a programming project. Seriously I already have a BA11VA with 11/23, 235kb ram, IO and RQDX3 in only four dual slots, why bother smaller? For that fact why wreck a J11 CPU board to make a J11 system? Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Sep 10 14:03:35 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 15:03:35 -0400 Subject: Portable PDP-11 (was Re: Does anyone use RT-11?) Message-ID: <0JO6002VY29AP111@vms048.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Portable PDP-11 (was Re: Does anyone use RT-11?) > From: "Zane H. Healy" > Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 11:54:24 -0700 (PDT) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> >As for storage, obviously some flavor of FLASH is great for most >> >things. CF is easy to interface to, and CF cards 1GB and smaller are >> >quite inexpensive. MMC/SD are also inexpensive and even easier to >> >interface to, with a bit more work on the driver side to man the SPI >> >interface. >> >> None of the above for cost or availability reasons. I'd opt for IDE >> using one of the many 40-500mb drives I have. > >I believe converters for IDE to CF cards are pretty cheap, so if you have >IDE, you effectively have CF. True but then I ahve to buy an adaptor and the CF. And I don't get to use up that pile of drives.. ;) >> You envision what sould like a Laptop. I can't easily fabricate that >> but a toteable like Kaypro, Osborne and a few others is very doable. > >You might want to look at some of the "Laptops" that others have built for >things such as the Amiga. It might not be as difficult as you might think. If you have to wirewarp the system board first then create a CRT/LCD driver board yes it gets nasty. If you have RS170 video already then there are screens available. I've traversed this path a few times already and the basic thing is if you have excess money to throw at it then it's easier. >> The basic machine description is a 128kW using 32kx8 static parts (8pcs), >> Boot roms/ODT, MMU, two serial, parallel (PC conpatable for printer) >> and IDE disk. Things like OS in Eprom have surfaced to my idea pool >> to consider especially if it were not RT11 (CUBIX influence). Terminal >> logic would be VK170 (base VT52 on a dual size card) and a monitor in >> the 7-9" size. >> >> Right now it's a static project from the build it perspective but >> as new ideas surface and other projects supply different expereinces >> it morphs some. What I'd have built say 6 years ago and noew would >> be very different. It will eventually get attention as I have parts >> stored away for it. > >Sounds fun. One day I'll just decide to do it.. ;) Allison From ajp166 at bellatlantic.net Mon Sep 10 14:22:04 2007 From: ajp166 at bellatlantic.net (Allison) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 15:22:04 -0400 Subject: Portable PDP-11 (was Re: Does anyone use RT-11?) Message-ID: <0JO6000D6343VM44@vms040.mailsrvcs.net> > >Subject: Re: Portable PDP-11 (was Re: Does anyone use RT-11?) > From: "Ethan Dicks" > Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 13:55:56 -0500 > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >On 9/10/07, Allison wrote: >> > "Ethan Dicks" > > >> >On 9/9/07, Allison wrote: >> >> One day I plan to get a T11 up and running wtih RT but with non-DEC >> >> drivers for terminal and storage as a small toteable -11. >> > >> >I'd like to hear more about this... >> >> I have a lot on paper plus the ever important T-11 manual. > >Very handy. Required! ;) >> However >> it has stopped at that phase mostly due to other projects having >> my interest. > >Fair enough. I think most of us have a variety of projects cluttering >our foreground task. > >> ... only 8KW ram, 8KW Eprom and a DLART for serial IO. > >Certainly minimal, though today, 28KW of RAM isn't a stretch. At the time I was just hacking and wanted to use the smaller parts I had for simplicity reasons. >> The display is really the harder part at least for portability and power >> consumption. However for this one I was considering packaging along >> the lines of the Kaypro totables and wall power. Part of this recognizes >> the T-11 uses a fair amount of power (Z80 NMOS is similar) and most of >> the parts around it will not be CMOS so battery operation is not easily >> accomplished. > >Understandable. > >> >As for storage, obviously some flavor of FLASH is great for most >> >things... >> >> None of the above for cost or availability reasons. I'd opt for IDE >> using one of the many 40-500mb drives I have. > >That's certainly a larger device than I'd envisioned (my initial idea >was a "pod" the size of a modem or smaller, with an external >display/keyboard/host port). > >> >While textual LCDs are cheaper and easier to interface to, the largest >> >one I've seen is 4x40. A graphical LCD panel with a SED1335 or t6963 >> >of a size of 640x200 would be perfect for 80x25... >> >> I planned on text. However it's possible to get LCDs used for laptops >> but the logic to drive them is non trivial. > >Yes. I have a 640x400 laptop display, with specs, that ran me about >$10 a few years back. If I ever decide to learn VHDL, I might try to >interface it to my IOB6120, but, yes, it takes a bit of work to talk >to those. I ahve three of them, monchrome. They are easy enough to drive but the little "gotchas" are nasty. First one is the display is really two 640x240 segments running in parallel top and bottom so there are two "video" data paths running concurrently unlike a CRT. If your doing bit mapped (1BPP) that's some 40k of total memory to address, oh and that has to really two memories or a funny dual output scheme to feed the display. Doing character only simplifies it some if you don't mind doing some logic twice (font, bit shifter, memory). >> >Back to the T-11, though, if I recall its capabilities correctly, it >> >doesn't have an MMU, and it would be difficult, if not impractical, to >> >design an external one that resembles, say, the MMU on an 11/23... >> >> Correct on the OS and software. However the MMU is very buildable >> and not near as hardware intensive as would seem. For an example >> look at the T-11 interface in the VT240. It takes a few 16x4 >> bipolar rams and some loose logic to implement the paging (2 74189, >> 3 74ls257 and a bit of TTL glue) to make a a compatable (mostly) mapper. > >Interesting. I suppose it couldn't be _too_ complicated, then, since >it one like it does fit on a few square inches of 11/34 CPU board. Basic circuit is the same. >I even happen to have a small pad of 74189s. Same here. > >> One of the things I've given consideration to in recent years is a nonDEC >> and non *nix OS such as CUBIX as that would translate reasonably from >> 6908 to PDP-11. This arises from the fact that RT-11 has a very >> primitive filesystem compared to CP/M and an OS that is not encumbered >> would be easier to work with. > >Hmm... from what I've seen of CUBIX, it sounds feasible for a PDP-11 >host, and it certainly gets around the issue of what OS to distribute, >but I would think that porting CUBIX could be an entirely independent >project (focusing on whatever display and mass-storage interfaces are >available). The OS can be logically seperated from the mass storage and addressed as a series of logical blocks so that going to floppy, IDE or whatever is easy as most do (or can do) 512byte sectors as a consistant thing. That divorces the CHS/LBA thing from the os. > > >So, Allison, does any of this sound like what you had in mind... ? >> >> You envision what sould like a Laptop. I can't easily fabricate that >> but a toteable like Kaypro, Osborne and a few others is very doable. > >I hadn't specifically been requiring a laptop shape, more of a tiny >luggable - on the order of one of the modern Tektronix LCD-screen >digital scopes. totable. ;) >> The basic machine description is a 128kW using 32kx8 static parts (8pcs), >> Boot roms/ODT, MMU, two serial, parallel (PC conpatable for printer) >> and IDE disk. Things like OS in Eprom have surfaced to my idea pool >> to consider especially if it were not RT11 (CUBIX influence). Terminal >> logic would be VK170 (base VT52 on a dual size card) and a monitor in >> the 7-9" size. > >OK. I'm not sure I get the "VK170" reference. Is that some sort of >DEC or 3rd party embedded product? VK170 was a DEC Qbus/Ubus card that did RS232/423 IO and had outputs for RS170 video or Video/Hsync/Vsync and took a parallel keyboard to serial (used LK02 or similar). The bus edge connector was power only so it could even be externally mounted as a minimal VT52 (80x25). It's in the Microcomputer handbooks. >Thanks for sharing your design ideas. They aren't patented. ;) Allison From berste28 at cogeco.ca Mon Sep 10 17:07:16 2007 From: berste28 at cogeco.ca (Edith Stevenson) Date: Mon, 10 Sep 2007 18:07:16 -0400 Subject: Relisys 4816 scanner - anyone have info on it? References: 9011A52E011ED311B4280004AC1BA6150146767F@yalepress3.unipress.yale.edu Message-ID: <46E5C014.10904@cogeco.ca> yes it is a 4800dpi optical full colour scanner and can take legal size. this is a high end scanner. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Sep 11 02:12:01 2007 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 00:12:01 -0700 Subject: Wang 300 Calc --> 0/1 power labels References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <575131af0709090809k2437d360q379a5e0e2247b04b@mail.gmail.com> <46E46DE4.6070603@jetnet.ab.ca> <46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com> <2f806cd70709092352v6eb32e88v95b2663a416b99d4@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> <2f806cd70709100848t6b9fe2bcna590bb3ced2af081@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709101020t6a340654jee9e5b0825df6c9d@mail.gmail.com> <46E58D9E.EC4770D5@cs.ubc.ca> <575131af0709101747w46267f74q24bd5d4433b2a43e@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E63FC2.3AD17F9B@cs.ubc.ca> > To know a printer socket from a SCSI socket, you need to memorise > what, half a dozen? Maybe a dozen? > If you can't do that, you shouldn't be playing with computers, they're > too hard for you. I wasn't being nasty, there was no need for you to start. Be aware that while you may have intended that insult for me, you actually hit all those who had earlier expressed confusion over many of the 'few' symbols. It's also doubly cheap in that you yourself set up the conditions (relative quantity of symbols - irrelevant to the point being made) from which to derive it. You're responses to my points were all misdirections from the issue, except for the one in which you further undermine your own position (printer symbols). You failed to address the argument. (And wikipedia isn't exactly anything to rely on for precise definitions.) This is OT as I tried to point in my earlier message, and considering your approach to debating, I'm not interested in dragging it out further. From robert at irrelevant.com Tue Sep 11 02:44:42 2007 From: robert at irrelevant.com (Rob) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 08:44:42 +0100 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <575131af0709101754i7313a7c5y6a59edfc60ca60b0@mail.gmail.com> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <575131af0709090809k2437d360q379a5e0e2247b04b@mail.gmail.com> <46E46DE4.6070603@jetnet.ab.ca> <46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com> <2f806cd70709092352v6eb32e88v95b2663a416b99d4@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> <46E5898D.7090809@yahoo.co.uk> <575131af0709101754i7313a7c5y6a59edfc60ca60b0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <2f806cd70709110044g5625dab2wbe9508136bd38b19@mail.gmail.com> On 11/09/2007, Liam Proven wrote: > > I think that is absolute reverse of the case, actually. Printing a new > manual is cheap; redesigning case mouldings or even just what's > printed onto the case means retooling production lines, producing > different models for different markets, tracking which country each > machine is destined for... Vast amounts of complexity. Any manager or > designer who suggested this would deserve to be fired for > incompetence. Most consumer electronics manufacturers already support manufacturing for several different markets, even if it's only a different power plug/wall wart that's required on the device. So just supply all reasonable varients of labeling with each model. Place I worked used to sell (Lexmark?) laser printers. They came with a selection of bezels to clip around the front panel buttons, with WORDS in a variety of languages, Heck, even the Fisher Price toys I've been buying rather a lot of lately come with an A4 sheet of stickers with the H&S warnings in each of a couple of dozen languages - pick yours & stick it here... If they can do it, surely a manufacturer of a expensive technology can produce a sheet of stickers for the user to pick one and place alongside the connectors.. The manuals come in about twenty different languages, after all!! (Hmm... back in the 486 days, pre-ATX, some of the really cheap chinese clone PC cases we used to buy, themselves came with a sheet of stickers for you to apply to the case to describe the ports. Individual labels for mouse, serial, monitor, keyboard, printer, scsi, scanner, etc. All in written out in English !) From julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk Tue Sep 11 05:39:27 2007 From: julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 11:39:27 +0100 Subject: Wang 300 Calc In-Reply-To: <575131af0709101754i7313a7c5y6a59edfc60ca60b0@mail.gmail.com> References: <534349.91390.qm@web52711.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <575131af0709090809k2437d360q379a5e0e2247b04b@mail.gmail.com> <46E46DE4.6070603@jetnet.ab.ca> <46E45171.12715.30C8E71B@cclist.sydex.com> <2f806cd70709092352v6eb32e88v95b2663a416b99d4@mail.gmail.com> <575131af0709100732s417d8258q6ed526ccd3089b65@mail.gmail.com> <46E5898D.7090809@yahoo.co.uk> <575131af0709101754i7313a7c5y6a59edfc60ca60b0@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <46E6705F.4050306@yahoo.co.uk> Liam Proven wrote: >>>> BBC micro, got this right! Proper words on the ports.. >>> The BBC Micro, a machine designed in England for Brits. >> I suspect it was more that the primary market was education, so it made sense >> to be as user-friendly as possible by stating exactly what each port was. > > Education /in Britain/. It was the *BBC* Micro. I think you missed my point. It wasn't a typical general-purpose 'home' machine of the time, it was a machine designed primarily for a specific market - namely one where the majority of the users would be children who were actively encouraged to be plugging things into the machine. (unfortunately the only technical spec I have is 09/1981 and just states "colour scheme and markings to be